From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  1 10:15:44 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 07:15:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and capitalism
In-Reply-To: <762FE71C9F934B7EB04743AA5E26B4C6@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1330614944.26844.YahooMailClassic@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

the guy was by any standards a victim (unlike todays whiners). His judgements were understandably clouded. Still, there are different strands of socialism that do not fit the mold of 20th century collectivism. Capitalism wins when it come to production. That has to be conceded. Incentives combined with fear plus the concentration of wealth gives capitalism a huge advantage in this regard. Anyone who considers production, or the bottom line, a worthy goal will no doubt be a capitalist. Count me out. 
?
Having said that, Vacel Havel was a proponent of the market economy. But he also say the need for a strong safety net. 

--- On Wed, 2/29/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poetry and capitalism
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Wednesday, February 29, 2012, 6:02 PM






?


?

From: John Jeffrey 
Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 10:28 AM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poetry and capitalism
?


"'Socialism itself will be of value simply because it will lead to individualism' since individuals will no longer need to fear poverty or starvation."
?
He couldn't have been more wrong about that.
?
Right: socialism requires the surrender of one?s individuality in return for security from poverty and starvation?which, ironically, it can?t provide without the help of capitalism.? I agree with so much of what Wilde wrote, I find his lack of perceptiveness on this strange.
?
--Bob
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  1 10:31:37 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 07:31:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Battle of the sexes in leading magazines
In-Reply-To: <CAAy7y5RaMrp6Aazm-EiDB701W2xpOfWSPnVwvFL4+GVxJRX4pQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1330615897.64466.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

yes. something is better than nothing.
?
what people don't understand about nothing is that it is not Some kind of thing.
Nothing is
?
the absence of Anything. 
?
No space.
Time.
?
No ... thing. 

--- On Wed, 2/29/12, Tad Richards <theoldmole at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Tad Richards <theoldmole at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Battle of the sexes in leading magazines
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Wednesday, February 29, 2012, 7:16 PM


Well, it's closer to the actual ratio.Not to say that you're not an obsessive, narcissistic, bullying agitator,


On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 5:53 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:






Non-Wilshberians or the equivalent . . . zero; Wilshberians or the equivalent . . . ten thousand; yet, if I complain that the ratio should be at least something to ten thousand, I?m an obsessive, narcissistic, bullying agitator.? 

?

--Bob

?

?
_______________________________________________
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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  1 11:19:09 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 08:19:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] happy birthday Jack
Message-ID: <1330618749.30663.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>











It's Kerouac's birthday.
?
http://www.kerouac.com/kerouac-90th-birthday/

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From jforjames at aol.com  Thu Mar  1 13:05:22 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 13:05:22 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] woodbury poetry (harvard) listening booth
Message-ID: <8CEC5ED017D5484-F5C-1245C@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com>


Looks like the Woodbury Poetry Room has expanded its website offerings...
http://hcl.harvard.edu/poetryroom/listeningbooth/index.cfm



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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Thu Mar  1 14:21:40 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 20:21:40 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Battle of the sexes in leading magazines
In-Reply-To: <CACHqp-6ooCncPPOo3zrsxjUV6jgA_3b+k2RDci3ozNhOvTYokA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAy7y5TH7gByfiTE38Evf5Z3KbnxWLoqpnrUhHEQpmzHuMN=Og@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACHqp-6ooCncPPOo3zrsxjUV6jgA_3b+k2RDci3ozNhOvTYokA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyRabysv=7ZTR1mNgPkgBmdmX8fio987J49q_rd3=xRfpQ@mail.gmail.com>

this is a good one....

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 9:41 PM, Paul Howell <htthinc at gmail.com> wrote:

> Shows that one woman is as good as ten or twenty men.
>
> On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 2:07 PM, Tad Richards <theoldmole at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> http://www.vidaweb.org/the-2011-count
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Thu Mar  1 14:21:59 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 20:21:59 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Battle of the sexes in leading magazines
In-Reply-To: <8CEC545E55C4C93-CFC-C692@Webmail-m117.sysops.aol.com>
References: <CAAy7y5TH7gByfiTE38Evf5Z3KbnxWLoqpnrUhHEQpmzHuMN=Og@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACHqp-6ooCncPPOo3zrsxjUV6jgA_3b+k2RDci3ozNhOvTYokA@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CEC545E55C4C93-CFC-C692@Webmail-m117.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyQ4fGk0HVcaoVANKf7UvO0ErO6os7Yz1jEbHYUDtO1dBw@mail.gmail.com>

and this one even better, ....

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 11:09 PM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:

> Or that women can say more with fewer words.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Howell <htthinc at gmail.com>
> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Wed, Feb 29, 2012 3:42 pm
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Battle of the sexes in leading magazines
>
>  Shows that one woman is as good as ten or twenty men.
>
> On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 2:07 PM, Tad Richards <theoldmole at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> http://www.vidaweb.org/the-2011-count
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>  _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Fri Mar  2 06:58:10 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 12:58:10 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Dixie Primer,
	for the Little Folks: Electronic Edition.
Message-ID: <CA+9UsySSW4NSyAtD+aGs2ZZZJBZCUgdJ_+=nwi1Nw18_neZ=+w@mail.gmail.com>

http://docsouth.unc.edu/imls/moore/moore.html
The Dixie Primer, for the Little Folks:
Electronic Edition.
MARY'S LITTLE LAMB.


                         Mary had a little lamb,
                         Its fleece was white as snow;
                         And every where that Mary went
                         The lamb was sure to go.


                         He followed her to school one day,
                         Which was against the rule--
                         It made the children laugh and play
                         To see a lamb at school.
------------------------------
Page 30


                         So the teacher turned him out,
                         But still he lingered near;
                         And waited patiently about,
                         Till Mary did appear.


                         And then he ran to her and laid
                         His head upon her arm,
                         As if he said, I'm not afraid,
                         You'll keep me from all harm.

-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com  Fri Mar  2 11:12:03 2012
From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22e=B7ratio=22?=)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 11:12:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?a_noun_sing_e=B7ratio_15_=B7_2012?=
Message-ID: <a7a58144ba10be283c36a3160972b09a.squirrel@webmail4.web.com>

e?

a noun sing e?ratio 15 ? 2012

http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com/

with poetry by

Morgan Harlow, Candy Shue, Jan Lauwereyns, Doris Neidl, Tim Trace
Peterson, Jen Besemer, Sheila Squillante, Lisa McCool-Grime, Natalie
Watson, Julie Wood, Kristina Marie Darling, Felicia Shenker, Scott
Bentley, J. Crouse, Bob Heman, James Davies, Dylan Harris, Michael
Sikkema, Kent Leatham, Parker Tettleton, Bobbi Lurie, Lauren Marie
Cappello, Erin Heath, Wynne Huddleston, Jane Olivier, Elise, Nathan
Thompson, Tim Wright, Tim VanDyke, Iain Britton, Ian Hatcher, C. Brannon
Watts, Seth Tyler Copeland, Rich Murphy, J. D. Nelson, Howie Good, Monty
Reid, Dave Shortt, Billy Cancel, John Clinton, Thomas Fink, Larry Ziman,
Valery Oisteanu, Michael Crane, Jon Cone, Mark Cunningham, Rick Marlatt,
Nikolai Duffy, Alessandro Cusimano, Jacob Russell, Corey Wakeling, Stephen
Nelson, Steve Gilmartin, James Valvis, Greg Cohen, Derek Henderson, Travis
Cebula, Sean Howard, Walter Ruhlmann and M?rton Kopp?ny

and featuring

The Mallarm? Project, an examination of a yearlong series of art and
writing in Seattle by Joseph F. Keppler

and

The Susan Bee Interview


E?ratio is edited by Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino with contributing
editors Joseph F. Keppler and Lauren Marie Cappello

http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com

E?ratio is reading for issue 16, the fall 2012 issue.



e?




From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu  Fri Mar  2 16:53:37 2012
From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 15:53:37 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] mother-child poems
In-Reply-To: <8CEC5ED017D5484-F5C-1245C@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CEC5ED017D5484-F5C-1245C@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <4F514161.2080003@louisiana.edu>

I'm involved with a very interesting project--at least, from where I 
stand--and thought I'd solicit a little advice. I'm looking for 
recommendations of (1) any really good poems that express or address 
relations (specifically, _good_ relations, I'd guess) between mothers 
and children; and then (2) more particularly, poems treating mothers and 
children that might be directly accessible _for_ children--that is, that 
might be understood by kids and, perhaps, read aloud by them.

Right now I'm thinking of Lisel Mueller's "Reading the Brothers Grimm to 
Jenny"; and also, maybe, some nursery rhymes. If anyone out there has a 
favorite poem on this theme, I'd appreciate hearing about it.

All best,

Jerry

On 3/1/2012 12:05 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote:
> Looks like the Woodbury Poetry Room has expanded its website offerings...
> http://hcl.harvard.edu/poetryroom/listeningbooth/index.cfm
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506
jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
337-482-5478

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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Mar  2 17:40:02 2012
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 17:40:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] mother-child poems
Message-ID: <1681b.36c25b87.3c82a642@cs.com>

Rachel Hadas, The Red Hat
Rita Dove, After Reading Mickey in the Night Kitchen
Several by Sharon olds
Plath's Morning Song
Miller Williams, The Caterpillar
 
These are just a few that come readily to mind.  I'm sure you'll get 
hundreds of others.
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From carol.dorf at gmail.com  Fri Mar  2 18:56:57 2012
From: carol.dorf at gmail.com (carol dorf)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 15:56:57 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] mother-child poems
In-Reply-To: <4F514161.2080003@louisiana.edu>
References: <8CEC5ED017D5484-F5C-1245C@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com>
	<4F514161.2080003@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <CABVBwJBKvcdo-SZJ36GqUYPJfmwN_3eEa1kY5PuUfPq-fe6eLg@mail.gmail.com>

Here's a group I put together for Talking Writing a year or two ago --
To see the whole poem you need to click on the links.

http://talkingwriting.com/?p=1251
I think the Fanny Howe, or the Linda Pastan ones might be accessible to
children -- at least from about 4th grade and up.

Best,
Carol

On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:53 PM, Jerry McGuire <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu> wrote:

>  I'm involved with a very interesting project--at least, from where I
> stand--and thought I'd solicit a little advice. I'm looking for
> recommendations of (1) any really good poems that express or addressrelations (specifically, _good_ relations, I'd guess) between mothers and
> children; and then (2) more particularly, poems treating mothers and
> children that might be directly accessible _for_ children--that is, that
> might be understood by kids and, perhaps, read aloud by them.
>
> Right now I'm thinking of Lisel Mueller's "Reading the Brothers Grimm to
> Jenny"; and also, maybe, some nursery rhymes. If anyone out there has a
> favorite poem on this theme, I'd appreciate hearing about it.
>
> All best,
>
> Jerry
>
> On 3/1/2012 12:05 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote:
>
> Looks like the Woodbury Poetry Room has expanded its website offerings...
> http://hcl.harvard.edu/poetryroom/listeningbooth/index.cfm
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> --
> Jerry McGuire
> Dept. of English
> University of Louisiana at Lafayette
> Lafayette LA 70506jlm8047 at louisiana.edu337-482-5478
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Carol Dorf
talkingwriting.com
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  3 15:07:11 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 12:07:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] mother-child poems
Message-ID: <1330805231.48831.YahooMailClassic@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

If my library were handy I know that I find plenty of Mother/child (accessible) poems from Rita Dove. 

--- On Fri, 3/2/12, carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com> wrote:

From: carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] mother-child poems
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Friday, March 2, 2012, 6:56 PM

Here's a group I put together for Talking Writing a year or two ago -- 
To see the whole poem you need to click on the links.

http://talkingwriting.com/?p=1251

I think the Fanny Howe, or the Linda Pastan ones might be accessible to children -- at least from about 4th grade and up.

Best,
Carol

On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:53 PM, Jerry McGuire <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu> wrote:


  
    
  
  
    I'm involved with a very interesting
      project--at least, from where I stand--and thought I'd solicit a
      little advice. I'm looking for recommendations of (1) any really
      good poems that express or address relations (specifically,
    _good_ relations, I'd guess) between mothers and children; and then
    (2) more particularly, poems treating mothers and children that
    might be directly accessible _for_ children--that is, that might be
    understood by kids and, perhaps, read aloud by them. 

    

    Right now I'm thinking of Lisel Mueller's "Reading the Brothers
    Grimm to Jenny"; and also, maybe, some nursery rhymes. If anyone out
    there has a favorite poem on this theme, I'd appreciate hearing
    about it.

    

    All best,

    

    Jerry

    

    On 3/1/2012 12:05 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote:
    
        Looks like the Woodbury Poetry Room has expanded its
          website offerings...
        http://hcl.harvard.edu/poetryroom/listeningbooth/index.cfm

          

        
        ?
      
      

      
      

      _______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

    
    

    -- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506
jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
337-482-5478

  


_______________________________________________

New-Poetry mailing list

New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu

http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





-- 
Carol Dorf
talkingwriting.com




-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  3 15:23:15 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 12:23:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
Message-ID: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>


One of Donald Hall's best --

"And every year, Ronald McDonald takes the Pulitzer."

The United States invented mass quick-consumption and we are very 
good at it. We are not famous for making Ferraris and Rolls Royces; we 
are famous for the people's car, the Model T, the Model 
A-"transportation," as we call it: the particular abstracted into the 
utilitarian generality and two in every garage. Quality is all very well
 but it is not democratic; if we insist on hand-building Rolls Royces 
most of us will walk to work. Democracy demands the interchangeable part
 and the worker on the production line; Thomas Jefferson may have had 
other notions but de Tocqueville was our prophet. Or take American 
cuisine: it has never added a sauce to the world's palate, but our 
fast-food industry overruns the planet.

Thus: our poems, in their
 charming and interchangeable quantity, do not presume to the status of 
"Lycidas"-for that would be elitist and un-American. We write and 
publish the McPoem-ten billion served-which becomes our contribution to 
the history of literature as the Model T is our contribution to a 
history which runs from bare feet past elephant and rickshaw to the 
vehicles of space. Pull in any time day or night, park by the busload, 
and the McPoem waits on the steam shelf for us, wrapped and protected, 
indistinguishable, undistinguished, and reliable-the good old McPoem 
identical from coast to coast and in all the little towns between, 
subject to the quality control of the least common denominator.

And every year, Ronald McDonald takes the Pulitzer.

To
 produce the McPoem, institutions must enforce patterns, institutions 
within institutions; all subject to the same glorious dominance of 
unconscious economic determinism, template and formula of consumerism.

The McPoem is the product of the workshops of Hamburger University.

Poems have become as instant as coffee or onion soup mix.

Anyone
 editing a magazine receives poems dated the day of the postmark. When a
 poet types and submits a poem just composed (or even shows it to spouse
 or friend) the poet cuts off from the poem the possibility of growth 
and change; I suspect that the poet wishes to forestall the 
possibilities of growth and change, though of course without 
acknowledging the wish.

If Robert Lowell, John Berryman and 
Robert Penn Warren publish without allowing for revision or 
self-criticism, how can we expect a twenty-four-year-old in Manhattan to
 wait five years-or eighteen months? With these famous men as models, 
how should we blame the young poet who boasts in a brochure of over four
 hundred poems published in the last five years? Or the publisher, 
advertising a book, who brags that his poet has published twelve books 
in ten years? Or the workshop teacher who meets a colleague on a 
crosswalk and buffs the backs of his fingernails against his tweed as he
 proclaims that, over the last two years, he has averaged "placing" two 
poems a week?

The workshop schools us to produce the McPoem, 
which is "a mold in plaster, / Made with no loss of time," with no waste
 of effort, with no strenuous questioning as to merit. If we attend a 
workshop we must bring something to class or we do not contribute. What 
kind of workshop could Horace have contributed to, if he kept his poems 
to himself for ten years? No, we will not admit Horace and Pope to our 
workshops, for they will just sit there, holding back their own work, 
claiming it is not ready, acting superior, a bunch of elitists...

The
 poetry workshop resembles a garage to which we bring incomplete or 
malfunctioning homemade machines for diagnosis and repair. Here is the 
homemade airplane for which the crazed inventor forgot to provide wings;
 here is the internal combustion engine all finished except that it 
lacks a carburetor; here is the rowboat without oarlocks, the ladder 
without rungs, the motorcycle without wheels. We advance our 
nonfunctional machine into a circle of other apprentice inventors and 
one or two senior Edisons. "Very good," they say; "it almost flies.... 
How about, uh... how about l.,m wings?" Or, "Let me just show you how to
 build a carburetor...."

Whatever we bring to this place, we 
bring it too soon. The weekly meetings of the workshop serve the haste 
of our culture. When we bring a new poem to the workshop, anxious for 
praise, others' voices enter the poem's metabolism before it is mature, 
distorting its possible growth and change. "It's only when you get far 
enough away from your work to begin to be critical of it 
yourself"-Robert Frost said-"that anyone else's criticism can be 
tolerable " Bring to class only, he said, "old and cold things " Nothing
 is old and cold until it has gone through months of drafts. Therefore 
workshopping is intrinsically impossible.

It is from workshops 
that American poets learn to enjoy the embarrassment of publication?too 
soon, too soon?because making public is a condition of workshopping. 
This publication exposes oneself to one's fellow-poets only?a condition 
of which poets are perpetually accused and frequently guilty. We learn 
to write poems that will please not the Muse but our contemporaries, 
thus poems that resemble our contemporaries ' poems-thus the recipe for 
the McPoem... If we learn one thing else, we learn to publish 
promiscuously; these premature ejaculations count on number and 
frequency to counterbalance ineptitude.

Most poets need the 
conversation of other poets. They do not need mentors; they need 
friends, critics, people to argue with. It is no accident that 
Wordsworth, Coleridge, and Southey were friends when they were young; if
 Pound, H.D., and William Carlos Williams had not known each other when 
young, would they have become William Carlos Williams, H.D., and Pound? 
There have been some lone wolves but not many. The history of poetry is a
 history of friend ships and rivalries, not only with the dead great 
ones but with the living young. My four years at Harvard overlapped with
 the undergraduates Frank O'Hara, Adrienne Rich, John Ashbery, Robert 
Bly, Peter Davison, L.E. Sissman, and Kenneth Koch. (At the same time 
Galway Kinnell and W. S. Merwin attended Princeton.). I do not assert 
that we resembled a sewing circle, that we often helped each other 
overtly, or even that we liked each other. I do assert that we were 
lucky to have each other around for purposes of conversation.

We were not in workshops: we were merely attending college. Where else in this country would we have met each other?

The
 American problem of geographical isolation is real. Any remote place 
may be the site of poetry?imagined, remembered, or lived in?but for 
almost every poet it is necessary to live in exile before returning 
home?an exile rich in conflict and confirmation. Central New Hampshire 
or the" Olympic Peninsula or Cincinnati or the soybean plains of western
 Minnesota or the lower East Side may shine at the center of our work 
and our lives; but if we never leave these places we are not likely to 
grow up enough to do the work. There is a terrible poignancy in the 
talented artist who fears to leave home?defined as a place first to 
leave and then to return to.

So the workshop answers the need for
 a cafe. But I called it the institutionalized cafe, and it differs from
 the Parisian version by instituting requirements and by hiring and 
paying mentors. Workshop mentors even make assignments: "Write a persona
 poem in the voice of a dead ancestor." "Make a poem containing these 
ten words in this order with as many other words as you wish." "Write a 
poem without adjectives, or without prepositions, or without content" 
These formulas, everyone says, are a whole lot of fun. They also reduce 
poetry to a parlor game; they trivialize and make safe-seeming the real 
terrors of real art. This reduction by-formula is not accidental. We 
play these games in order to reduce poetry to a parlor game. Games serve
 to democratize, to soften, and to standardize; they are repellent. 
Although in theory workshops serve a useful purpose in gathering young 
artists together, workshop practices enforce the McPoem.
    
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Sat Mar  3 15:36:10 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 12:36:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] mother-child poems
In-Reply-To: <1330805231.48831.YahooMailClassic@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1330806970.69448.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Here's one:
My Mother Enters the Work Force
 

The path to ABC Business School

was paid for by a lucky sign:

Alterations, Qualified Seamstress 

Inquire Within.



Tested on Sleeves, hers 

never puckered -- puffed or sleek,

Leg o' or Raglan -- they barely 

needed the damp cloth 

to steam them perfect.



Those were the afternoons. 

Evenings she took in piecework, 

the treadle machine with its 

locomotive whir traveling the lit path 

of the needle through quicksand 

taffeta or velvet deep as a forest.



And now and now sang the treadle,

I know, I know....



And then it was day again, 

all morning at the office machines, 

their clack and chatter

another journey -- rougher,

that would go on forever

until she could break a hundred words

with no errors -- ah, and then



No more postponed groceries,

and that blue pair of shoes!


Written by Rita Dove


--- On Sat, 3/3/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] mother-child poems
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 3, 2012, 3:07 PM

If my library were handy I know that I find plenty of Mother/child (accessible) poems from Rita Dove. 

--- On Fri, 3/2/12, carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com> wrote:

From: carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] mother-child poems
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Friday, March 2, 2012, 6:56 PM

Here's a group I put together for Talking Writing a year or two ago -- 
To see the whole poem you need to click on the links.

http://talkingwriting.com/?p=1251

I think the Fanny Howe, or the Linda Pastan ones might be accessible to children -- at least from about 4th grade and up.

Best,
Carol

On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:53 PM, Jerry McGuire <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu> wrote:


  
    
  
  
    I'm involved with a very interesting
      project--at least, from where I stand--and thought I'd solicit a
      little advice. I'm looking for recommendations of (1) any really
      good poems that express or address relations (specifically,
    _good_ relations, I'd guess) between mothers and children; and then
    (2) more particularly, poems treating mothers and children that
    might be directly accessible _for_ children--that is, that might be
    understood by kids and, perhaps, read aloud by them. 

    

    Right now I'm thinking of Lisel Mueller's "Reading the Brothers
    Grimm to Jenny"; and also, maybe, some nursery rhymes. If anyone out
    there has a favorite poem on this theme, I'd appreciate hearing
    about it.

    

    All best,

    

    Jerry

    

    On 3/1/2012 12:05 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote:
    
        Looks like the Woodbury Poetry Room has expanded its
          website offerings...
        http://hcl.harvard.edu/poetryroom/listeningbooth/index.cfm

          

        
        ?
      
      

      
      

      _______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

    
    

    -- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506
jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
337-482-5478

  


_______________________________________________

New-Poetry mailing list

New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu

http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





-- 
Carol Dorf
talkingwriting.com




-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

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http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From mykelmarsh at comcast.net  Sat Mar  3 16:09:30 2012
From: mykelmarsh at comcast.net (mykelmarsh at comcast.net)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 21:09:30 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
In-Reply-To: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1283078373.1794097.1330808970682.JavaMail.root@sz0153a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

so part of what I'm getting here is that if you went to Harvard you wouldn't produce a Mcpoem. It seems like Robert Penn Warren and the 24 year old might also have poet friends who maybe didn't go to Harvard or Princeton. What makes quality in poetry? Why does Donald Hall consider himself a better poet? Because he revised his poetry and discussed it with friends? Why are the poets he doesn't like presented as comic characters? He seems to be selling his own brand of poetry, the poetry in which Pound was lost, esoteric and unconnected to what is meaningful in most peoples lives, lost in oubliettes of obscurity that may never reach beyond the poets own small circle of very educated friends. There are differences in poetry. Poets have different backgrounds and motivations. By trivializing the work of other poets so generally, he makes himself seem out of touch with anyone but ivy league graduates. There is a lot of quality poetry that comes without over analyzing and much that is gained by revising. It is a balance. Its seems just as plausible to me that revising something for ten years might make it look like an autopsy specimen that had been cut a few too many times. 

----- Original Message -----
From: "stephen russell" <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> 
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 12:23:15 PM 
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served 



One of Donald Hall's best -- 
" And every year, Ronald McDonald takes the Pulitzer ." 

The United States invented mass quick-consumption and we are very good at it. We are not famous for making Ferraris and Rolls Royces; we are famous for the people's car, the Model T, the Model A-"transportation," as we call it: the particular abstracted into the utilitarian generality and two in every garage. Quality is all very well but it is not democratic; if we insist on hand-building Rolls Royces most of us will walk to work. Democracy demands the interchangeable part and the worker on the production line; Thomas Jefferson may have had other notions but de Tocqueville was our prophet. Or take American cuisine: it has never added a sauce to the world's palate, but our fast-food industry overruns the planet. 

Thus: our poems, in their charming and interchangeable quantity, do not presume to the status of "Lycidas"-for that would be elitist and un-American. We write and publish the McPoem-ten billion served-which becomes our contribution to the history of literature as the Model T is our contribution to a history which runs from bare feet past elephant and rickshaw to the vehicles of space. Pull in any time day or night, park by the busload, and the McPoem waits on the steam shelf for us, wrapped and protected, indistinguishable, undistinguished, and reliable-the good old McPoem identical from coast to coast and in all the little towns between, subject to the quality control of the least common denominator. 

And every year, Ronald McDonald takes the Pulitzer. 

To produce the McPoem, institutions must enforce patterns, institutions within institutions; all subject to the same glorious dominance of unconscious economic determinism, template and formula of consumerism. 

The McPoem is the product of the workshops of Hamburger University. 

Poems have become as instant as coffee or onion soup mix. 

Anyone editing a magazine receives poems dated the day of the postmark. When a poet types and submits a poem just composed (or even shows it to spouse or friend) the poet cuts off from the poem the possibility of growth and change; I suspect that the poet wishes to forestall the possibilities of growth and change, though of course without acknowledging the wish. 

If Robert Lowell, John Berryman and Robert Penn Warren publish without allowing for revision or self-criticism, how can we expect a twenty-four-year-old in Manhattan to wait five years-or eighteen months? With these famous men as models, how should we blame the young poet who boasts in a brochure of over four hundred poems published in the last five years? Or the publisher, advertising a book, who brags that his poet has published twelve books in ten years? Or the workshop teacher who meets a colleague on a crosswalk and buffs the backs of his fingernails against his tweed as he proclaims that, over the last two years, he has averaged "placing" two poems a week? 

The workshop schools us to produce the McPoem, which is "a mold in plaster, / Made with no loss of time," with no waste of effort, with no strenuous questioning as to merit. If we attend a workshop we must bring something to class or we do not contribute. What kind of workshop could Horace have contributed to, if he kept his poems to himself for ten years? No, we will not admit Horace and Pope to our workshops, for they will just sit there, holding back their own work, claiming it is not ready, acting superior, a bunch of elitists... 

The poetry workshop resembles a garage to which we bring incomplete or malfunctioning homemade machines for diagnosis and repair. Here is the homemade airplane for which the crazed inventor forgot to provide wings; here is the internal combustion engine all finished except that it lacks a carburetor; here is the rowboat without oarlocks, the ladder without rungs, the motorcycle without wheels. We advance our nonfunctional machine into a circle of other apprentice inventors and one or two senior Edisons. "Very good," they say; "it almost flies.... How about, uh... how about l.,m wings?" Or, "Let me just show you how to build a carburetor...." 

Whatever we bring to this place, we bring it too soon. The weekly meetings of the workshop serve the haste of our culture. When we bring a new poem to the workshop, anxious for praise, others' voices enter the poem's metabolism before it is mature, distorting its possible growth and change. "It's only when you get far enough away from your work to begin to be critical of it yourself"-Robert Frost said-"that anyone else's criticism can be tolerable " Bring to class only, he said, "old and cold things " Nothing is old and cold until it has gone through months of drafts. Therefore workshopping is intrinsically impossible. 

It is from workshops that American poets learn to enjoy the embarrassment of publication?too soon, too soon?because making public is a condition of workshopping. This publication exposes oneself to one's fellow-poets only?a condition of which poets are perpetually accused and frequently guilty. We learn to write poems that will please not the Muse but our contemporaries, thus poems that resemble our contemporaries ' poems-thus the recipe for the McPoem... If we learn one thing else, we learn to publish promiscuously; these premature ejaculations count on number and frequency to counterbalance ineptitude. 

Most poets need the conversation of other poets. They do not need mentors; they need friends, critics, people to argue with. It is no accident that Wordsworth, Coleridge, and Southey were friends when they were young; if Pound, H.D., and William Carlos Williams had not known each other when young, would they have become William Carlos Williams, H.D., and Pound? There have been some lone wolves but not many. The history of poetry is a history of friend ships and rivalries, not only with the dead great ones but with the living young. My four years at Harvard overlapped with the undergraduates Frank O'Hara, Adrienne Rich, John Ashbery, Robert Bly, Peter Davison, L.E. Sissman, and Kenneth Koch. (At the same time Galway Kinnell and W. S. Merwin attended Princeton.). I do not assert that we resembled a sewing circle, that we often helped each other overtly, or even that we liked each other. I do assert that we were lucky to have each other around for purposes of conversation. 

We were not in workshops: we were merely attending college. Where else in this country would we have met each other? 

The American problem of geographical isolation is real. Any remote place may be the site of poetry?imagined, remembered, or lived in?but for almost every poet it is necessary to live in exile before returning home?an exile rich in conflict and confirmation. Central New Hampshire or the" Olympic Peninsula or Cincinnati or the soybean plains of western Minnesota or the lower East Side may shine at the center of our work and our lives; but if we never leave these places we are not likely to grow up enough to do the work. There is a terrible poignancy in the talented artist who fears to leave home?defined as a place first to leave and then to return to. 

So the workshop answers the need for a cafe. But I called it the institutionalized cafe, and it differs from the Parisian version by instituting requirements and by hiring and paying mentors. Workshop mentors even make assignments: "Write a persona poem in the voice of a dead ancestor." "Make a poem containing these ten words in this order with as many other words as you wish." "Write a poem without adjectives, or without prepositions, or without content" These formulas, everyone says, are a whole lot of fun. They also reduce poetry to a parlor game; they trivialize and make safe-seeming the real terrors of real art. This reduction by-formula is not accidental. We play these games in order to reduce poetry to a parlor game. Games serve to democratize, to soften, and to standardize; they are repellent. Although in theory workshops serve a useful purpose in gathering young artists together, workshop practices enforce the McPoem. 

_______________________________________________ 
New-Poetry mailing list 
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Sun Mar  4 15:56:48 2012
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 12:56:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] What She Said: The All Women Writers Issue
Message-ID: <1330894608.3211.YahooMailNeo@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>



SENTENTIA 4
What She Said: The All Women Writers Issue
164 pages
edited by Paula Bomer, Amy King (poetry) and Jen Michalski (fiction)
$10 (+$2 shipping)



Including work by:

Betsy Boyd, Ana Bozicevic, Mikita Brottman, Megan Calhoun, Ching-in 
Chen, Andrea DeAngelis, Kathy Flann, Sherrie Flick, Heather Fowler, Ana 
Garcia Begua, Rachel Eliza Griffiths, Jen Grow, Toshiya Kamei, Elise 
Levine, Sara Lippmann, Khadijah Queen, Treasure Shields Redmond, Metta 
Sama, Ellen McGrath Smith, Sara Jane Stoner, Meg Tuite, Carolyn 
Zaikowski, Darija Zilic 

http://sententiabooks.com/?p=257
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From ahadada at gol.com  Mon Mar  5 11:14:47 2012
From: ahadada at gol.com (ahadada at gol.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 16:14:47 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Request: Truck blog: Feb Issue
Message-ID: <YNaq4WZe.1330964087.4020880.ahadada@gol.com>

The Cid Corman poem is repeated, but one of them appears to have been an
attempt at formatting that didn't work, also it's incomplete.  Could
you please remove the second fragmented attempt?  I'm in your Tri-State
area so my request should be covered by your policy.  Thank you, Jesse
Glass




From gejs1 at rochester.rr.com  Mon Mar  5 11:42:16 2012
From: gejs1 at rochester.rr.com (gejs1 at rochester.rr.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 11:42:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Request: Truck blog: Feb Issue
In-Reply-To: <YNaq4WZe.1330964087.4020880.ahadada@gol.com>
Message-ID: <20120305164216.Q10N0.46926.root@hrndva-web27-z01>

Thanks, Jesse. Will do. 

I apologize for my eratic driving.

Cheers, 
g.e.
---- ahadada at gol.com wrote: 
> The Cid Corman poem is repeated, but one of them appears to have been an
> attempt at formatting that didn't work, also it's incomplete.  Could
> you please remove the second fragmented attempt?  I'm in your Tri-State
> area so my request should be covered by your policy.  Thank you, Jesse
> Glass
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  5 14:16:14 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 11:16:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
In-Reply-To: <1283078373.1794097.1330808970682.JavaMail.root@sz0153a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <1330974974.94682.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Hall is lamenting the loss of patience in favor of the mass produced poem. The rush to publish. & he derides the facile How To approach of assigning a workshop poem.
?
"Write a poem without adjectives, or without prepositions, or without content" These formulas, everyone says, are a whole lot of fun. They also reduce poetry to a parlor game; they trivialize and make safe-seeming the real terrors of real art.
?
Yes, too much revision and a poem can become an "autopsy specimen." Hall was not trivializing the work of other poets. He was speaking about a particular institutioalized approach to teaching ... the workshop. 
--- On Sat, 3/3/12, mykelmarsh at comcast.net <mykelmarsh at comcast.net> wrote:


From: mykelmarsh at comcast.net <mykelmarsh at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 3, 2012, 4:09 PM



#yiv2018541366 p {margin:0;}


so part of what I'm getting here is that if you went to Harvard you wouldn't produce a Mcpoem. It seems like Robert Penn Warren and the 24 year old might also have poet friends who maybe didn't go to Harvard or Princeton. What makes quality in poetry? Why does Donald Hall consider himself a better poet?? Because he revised his poetry and discussed it with friends? Why are the poets he doesn't like presented as comic characters? He seems to be selling his own brand of poetry, the poetry in which Pound was lost, esoteric and unconnected to what is meaningful in most peoples lives, lost in oubliettes of obscurity that may never reach beyond the poets own small circle of very educated friends. There are differences in poetry. Poets have different backgrounds and motivations. By trivializing the work of other poets so generally, he makes himself seem out of touch with anyone but ivy league graduates. There is a lot of quality poetry that comes without over
 analyzing and much that is gained by revising. It is a balance. Its seems just as plausible to me that revising something for ten years might make it look like an autopsy specimen that had been cut a few too many times.



From: "stephen russell" <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 12:23:15 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served











One of Donald Hall's best --
"And every year, Ronald McDonald takes the Pulitzer."

The United States invented mass quick-consumption and we are very good at it. We are not famous for making Ferraris and Rolls Royces; we are famous for the people's car, the Model T, the Model A-"transportation," as we call it: the particular abstracted into the utilitarian generality and two in every garage. Quality is all very well but it is not democratic; if we insist on hand-building Rolls Royces most of us will walk to work. Democracy demands the interchangeable part and the worker on the production line; Thomas Jefferson may have had other notions but de Tocqueville was our prophet. Or take American cuisine: it has never added a sauce to the world's palate, but our fast-food industry overruns the planet.

Thus: our poems, in their charming and interchangeable quantity, do not presume to the status of "Lycidas"-for that would be elitist and un-American. We write and publish the McPoem-ten billion served-which becomes our contribution to the history of literature as the Model T is our contribution to a history which runs from bare feet past elephant and rickshaw to the vehicles of space. Pull in any time day or night, park by the busload, and the McPoem waits on the steam shelf for us, wrapped and protected, indistinguishable, undistinguished, and reliable-the good old McPoem identical from coast to coast and in all the little towns between, subject to the quality control of the least common denominator.

And every year, Ronald McDonald takes the Pulitzer.

To produce the McPoem, institutions must enforce patterns, institutions within institutions; all subject to the same glorious dominance of unconscious economic determinism, template and formula of consumerism.

The McPoem is the product of the workshops of Hamburger University.

Poems have become as instant as coffee or onion soup mix.

Anyone editing a magazine receives poems dated the day of the postmark. When a poet types and submits a poem just composed (or even shows it to spouse or friend) the poet cuts off from the poem the possibility of growth and change; I suspect that the poet wishes to forestall the possibilities of growth and change, though of course without acknowledging the wish.

If Robert Lowell, John Berryman and Robert Penn Warren publish without allowing for revision or self-criticism, how can we expect a twenty-four-year-old in Manhattan to wait five years-or eighteen months? With these famous men as models, how should we blame the young poet who boasts in a brochure of over four hundred poems published in the last five years? Or the publisher, advertising a book, who brags that his poet has published twelve books in ten years? Or the workshop teacher who meets a colleague on a crosswalk and buffs the backs of his fingernails against his tweed as he proclaims that, over the last two years, he has averaged "placing" two poems a week?

The workshop schools us to produce the McPoem, which is "a mold in plaster, / Made with no loss of time," with no waste of effort, with no strenuous questioning as to merit. If we attend a workshop we must bring something to class or we do not contribute. What kind of workshop could Horace have contributed to, if he kept his poems to himself for ten years? No, we will not admit Horace and Pope to our workshops, for they will just sit there, holding back their own work, claiming it is not ready, acting superior, a bunch of elitists...

The poetry workshop resembles a garage to which we bring incomplete or malfunctioning homemade machines for diagnosis and repair. Here is the homemade airplane for which the crazed inventor forgot to provide wings; here is the internal combustion engine all finished except that it lacks a carburetor; here is the rowboat without oarlocks, the ladder without rungs, the motorcycle without wheels. We advance our nonfunctional machine into a circle of other apprentice inventors and one or two senior Edisons. "Very good," they say; "it almost flies.... How about, uh... how about l.,m wings?" Or, "Let me just show you how to build a carburetor...."

Whatever we bring to this place, we bring it too soon. The weekly meetings of the workshop serve the haste of our culture. When we bring a new poem to the workshop, anxious for praise, others' voices enter the poem's metabolism before it is mature, distorting its possible growth and change. "It's only when you get far enough away from your work to begin to be critical of it yourself"-Robert Frost said-"that anyone else's criticism can be tolerable " Bring to class only, he said, "old and cold things " Nothing is old and cold until it has gone through months of drafts. Therefore workshopping is intrinsically impossible.

It is from workshops that American poets learn to enjoy the embarrassment of publication?too soon, too soon?because making public is a condition of workshopping. This publication exposes oneself to one's fellow-poets only?a condition of which poets are perpetually accused and frequently guilty. We learn to write poems that will please not the Muse but our contemporaries, thus poems that resemble our contemporaries ' poems-thus the recipe for the McPoem... If we learn one thing else, we learn to publish promiscuously; these premature ejaculations count on number and frequency to counterbalance ineptitude.

Most poets need the conversation of other poets. They do not need mentors; they need friends, critics, people to argue with. It is no accident that Wordsworth, Coleridge, and Southey were friends when they were young; if Pound, H.D., and William Carlos Williams had not known each other when young, would they have become William Carlos Williams, H.D., and Pound? There have been some lone wolves but not many. The history of poetry is a history of friend ships and rivalries, not only with the dead great ones but with the living young. My four years at Harvard overlapped with the undergraduates Frank O'Hara, Adrienne Rich, John Ashbery, Robert Bly, Peter Davison, L.E. Sissman, and Kenneth Koch. (At the same time Galway Kinnell and W. S. Merwin attended Princeton.). I do not assert that we resembled a sewing circle, that we often helped each other overtly, or even that we liked each other. I do assert that we were lucky to have each other around for purposes
 of conversation.

We were not in workshops: we were merely attending college. Where else in this country would we have met each other?

The American problem of geographical isolation is real. Any remote place may be the site of poetry?imagined, remembered, or lived in?but for almost every poet it is necessary to live in exile before returning home?an exile rich in conflict and confirmation. Central New Hampshire or the" Olympic Peninsula or Cincinnati or the soybean plains of western Minnesota or the lower East Side may shine at the center of our work and our lives; but if we never leave these places we are not likely to grow up enough to do the work. There is a terrible poignancy in the talented artist who fears to leave home?defined as a place first to leave and then to return to.

So the workshop answers the need for a cafe. But I called it the institutionalized cafe, and it differs from the Parisian version by instituting requirements and by hiring and paying mentors. Workshop mentors even make assignments: "Write a persona poem in the voice of a dead ancestor." "Make a poem containing these ten words in this order with as many other words as you wish." "Write a poem without adjectives, or without prepositions, or without content" These formulas, everyone says, are a whole lot of fun. They also reduce poetry to a parlor game; they trivialize and make safe-seeming the real terrors of real art. This reduction by-formula is not accidental. We play these games in order to reduce poetry to a parlor game. Games serve to democratize, to soften, and to standardize; they are repellent. Although in theory workshops serve a useful purpose in gathering young artists together, workshop practices enforce the McPoem. 

_______________________________________________
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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  5 14:44:30 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 11:44:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
In-Reply-To: <1330974974.94682.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1330976670.90956.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

In fact, Hall concludes with this defining sentence:
?
Although in theory workshops serve a useful purpose in gathering young artists together, workshop practices enforce the McPoem. 




--- On Mon, 3/5/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:


From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Monday, March 5, 2012, 2:16 PM







Hall is lamenting the loss of patience in favor of the mass produced poem. The rush to publish. & he derides the facile How To approach of assigning a workshop poem.
?
"Write a poem without adjectives, or without prepositions, or without content" These formulas, everyone says, are a whole lot of fun. They also reduce poetry to a parlor game; they trivialize and make safe-seeming the real terrors of real art.
?
Yes, too much revision and a poem can become an "autopsy specimen." Hall was not trivializing the work of other poets. He was speaking about a particular institutioalized approach to teaching ... the workshop. 
--- On Sat, 3/3/12, mykelmarsh at comcast.net <mykelmarsh at comcast.net> wrote:


From: mykelmarsh at comcast.net <mykelmarsh at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 3, 2012, 4:09 PM



#yiv2121898217  p {margin:0;}


so part of what I'm getting here is that if you went to Harvard you wouldn't produce a Mcpoem. It seems like Robert Penn Warren and the 24 year old might also have poet friends who maybe didn't go to Harvard or Princeton. What makes quality in poetry? Why does Donald Hall consider himself a better poet?? Because he revised his poetry and discussed it with friends? Why are the poets he doesn't like presented as comic characters? He seems to be selling his own brand of poetry, the poetry in which Pound was lost, esoteric and unconnected to what is meaningful in most peoples lives, lost in oubliettes of obscurity that may never reach beyond the poets own small circle of very educated friends. There are differences in poetry. Poets have different backgrounds and motivations. By trivializing the work of other poets so generally, he makes himself seem out of touch with anyone but ivy league graduates. There is a lot of quality poetry that comes without over
 analyzing and much that is gained by revising. It is a balance. Its seems just as plausible to me that revising something for ten years might make it look like an autopsy specimen that had been cut a few too many times.



From: "stephen russell" <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 12:23:15 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served











One of Donald Hall's best --
"And every year, Ronald McDonald takes the Pulitzer."

The United States invented mass quick-consumption and we are very good at it. We are not famous for making Ferraris and Rolls Royces; we are famous for the people's car, the Model T, the Model A-"transportation," as we call it: the particular abstracted into the utilitarian generality and two in every garage. Quality is all very well but it is not democratic; if we insist on hand-building Rolls Royces most of us will walk to work. Democracy demands the interchangeable part and the worker on the production line; Thomas Jefferson may have had other notions but de Tocqueville was our prophet. Or take American cuisine: it has never added a sauce to the world's palate, but our fast-food industry overruns the planet.

Thus: our poems, in their charming and interchangeable quantity, do not presume to the status of "Lycidas"-for that would be elitist and un-American. We write and publish the McPoem-ten billion served-which becomes our contribution to the history of literature as the Model T is our contribution to a history which runs from bare feet past elephant and rickshaw to the vehicles of space. Pull in any time day or night, park by the busload, and the McPoem waits on the steam shelf for us, wrapped and protected, indistinguishable, undistinguished, and reliable-the good old McPoem identical from coast to coast and in all the little towns between, subject to the quality control of the least common denominator.

And every year, Ronald McDonald takes the Pulitzer.

To produce the McPoem, institutions must enforce patterns, institutions within institutions; all subject to the same glorious dominance of unconscious economic determinism, template and formula of consumerism.

The McPoem is the product of the workshops of Hamburger University.

Poems have become as instant as coffee or onion soup mix.

Anyone editing a magazine receives poems dated the day of the postmark. When a poet types and submits a poem just composed (or even shows it to spouse or friend) the poet cuts off from the poem the possibility of growth and change; I suspect that the poet wishes to forestall the possibilities of growth and change, though of course without acknowledging the wish.

If Robert Lowell, John Berryman and Robert Penn Warren publish without allowing for revision or self-criticism, how can we expect a twenty-four-year-old in Manhattan to wait five years-or eighteen months? With these famous men as models, how should we blame the young poet who boasts in a brochure of over four hundred poems published in the last five years? Or the publisher, advertising a book, who brags that his poet has published twelve books in ten years? Or the workshop teacher who meets a colleague on a crosswalk and buffs the backs of his fingernails against his tweed as he proclaims that, over the last two years, he has averaged "placing" two poems a week?

The workshop schools us to produce the McPoem, which is "a mold in plaster, / Made with no loss of time," with no waste of effort, with no strenuous questioning as to merit. If we attend a workshop we must bring something to class or we do not contribute. What kind of workshop could Horace have contributed to, if he kept his poems to himself for ten years? No, we will not admit Horace and Pope to our workshops, for they will just sit there, holding back their own work, claiming it is not ready, acting superior, a bunch of elitists...

The poetry workshop resembles a garage to which we bring incomplete or malfunctioning homemade machines for diagnosis and repair. Here is the homemade airplane for which the crazed inventor forgot to provide wings; here is the internal combustion engine all finished except that it lacks a carburetor; here is the rowboat without oarlocks, the ladder without rungs, the motorcycle without wheels. We advance our nonfunctional machine into a circle of other apprentice inventors and one or two senior Edisons. "Very good," they say; "it almost flies.... How about, uh... how about l.,m wings?" Or, "Let me just show you how to build a carburetor...."

Whatever we bring to this place, we bring it too soon. The weekly meetings of the workshop serve the haste of our culture. When we bring a new poem to the workshop, anxious for praise, others' voices enter the poem's metabolism before it is mature, distorting its possible growth and change. "It's only when you get far enough away from your work to begin to be critical of it yourself"-Robert Frost said-"that anyone else's criticism can be tolerable " Bring to class only, he said, "old and cold things " Nothing is old and cold until it has gone through months of drafts. Therefore workshopping is intrinsically impossible.

It is from workshops that American poets learn to enjoy the embarrassment of publication?too soon, too soon?because making public is a condition of workshopping. This publication exposes oneself to one's fellow-poets only?a condition of which poets are perpetually accused and frequently guilty. We learn to write poems that will please not the Muse but our contemporaries, thus poems that resemble our contemporaries ' poems-thus the recipe for the McPoem... If we learn one thing else, we learn to publish promiscuously; these premature ejaculations count on number and frequency to counterbalance ineptitude.

Most poets need the conversation of other poets. They do not need mentors; they need friends, critics, people to argue with. It is no accident that Wordsworth, Coleridge, and Southey were friends when they were young; if Pound, H.D., and William Carlos Williams had not known each other when young, would they have become William Carlos Williams, H.D., and Pound? There have been some lone wolves but not many. The history of poetry is a history of friend ships and rivalries, not only with the dead great ones but with the living young. My four years at Harvard overlapped with the undergraduates Frank O'Hara, Adrienne Rich, John Ashbery, Robert Bly, Peter Davison, L.E. Sissman, and Kenneth Koch. (At the same time Galway Kinnell and W. S. Merwin attended Princeton.). I do not assert that we resembled a sewing circle, that we often helped each other overtly, or even that we liked each other. I do assert that we were lucky to have each other around for purposes
 of conversation.

We were not in workshops: we were merely attending college. Where else in this country would we have met each other?

The American problem of geographical isolation is real. Any remote place may be the site of poetry?imagined, remembered, or lived in?but for almost every poet it is necessary to live in exile before returning home?an exile rich in conflict and confirmation. Central New Hampshire or the" Olympic Peninsula or Cincinnati or the soybean plains of western Minnesota or the lower East Side may shine at the center of our work and our lives; but if we never leave these places we are not likely to grow up enough to do the work. There is a terrible poignancy in the talented artist who fears to leave home?defined as a place first to leave and then to return to.

So the workshop answers the need for a cafe. But I called it the institutionalized cafe, and it differs from the Parisian version by instituting requirements and by hiring and paying mentors. Workshop mentors even make assignments: "Write a persona poem in the voice of a dead ancestor." "Make a poem containing these ten words in this order with as many other words as you wish." "Write a poem without adjectives, or without prepositions, or without content" These formulas, everyone says, are a whole lot of fun. They also reduce poetry to a parlor game; they trivialize and make safe-seeming the real terrors of real art. This reduction by-formula is not accidental. We play these games in order to reduce poetry to a parlor game. Games serve to democratize, to soften, and to standardize; they are repellent. Although in theory workshops serve a useful purpose in gathering young artists together, workshop practices enforce the McPoem. 

_______________________________________________
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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Mar  5 15:42:20 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 15:42:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
In-Reply-To: <1330976670.90956.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1330976670.90956.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <A2070EAF38F144E796BAA7572EEF1C9B@BobHP>


      In fact, Hall concludes with this defining sentence:

      Although in theory workshops serve a useful purpose in gathering young artists together, workshop practices enforce the McPoem. 
     

Some thoughts.  College workshops or the equivalent in all subjects gather together young apprentices in their subjects and teach what the conventional understanding at the time of the subject.  A poetry workshop will enforce the McPoem only on those without the natural aptitude to do other kinds of poems.  Amusingly, while Hall?s poems may not be ?McPoems,? they most certainly are Wilshberian.  Most workshops, like most anything, will be less than super-effective, but most will be okay.  

I think asking poets, journeymen as well as apprentices, to write poems without adjectives or?better?without either verbs or nouns, is a great idea.  Basically such ?games? are the main value of the genuine language poem, one of the very few significant alternatives we have to the McPoem.   Another, of course, is adding non-verbal elements to poems.  If composing poetry isn?t a game for you (however serious a one), I would wonder why you?re bothering with it. 

It just now struck me that a big problem with the whole idea of teaching poetry is that you will end, as in the teaching of just about any subject, with many mediocre journeymen who will never significantly improve, or stray from what the status quo is in their field.  This is a problem in poetry that it is not in other fields because there?s no real place in society for mediocre poets other than in teaching (or maybe at Hallmark).  In engineering, for instance, there?s a strong demand for mediocre engineers?engineers, that is, who can carry out engineering tasks conventionally but soundly.  Many mediocre composers can be used in orchestras and bands.  There are many openings, too, for good but uninspired representational visual artists.  

Seems to me that all that is most wrong with college poetry programs could be taken care of with one widely-circulated decent college anthology of poetry?that included decent criticism of poetry.  I won?t define what I think would be a decent anthology because I know how annoying that would be.  I will say it would contain a fair amount of Wilshberian poems?and McPoems.

--Bob
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Mon Mar  5 15:58:07 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 12:58:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
In-Reply-To: <A2070EAF38F144E796BAA7572EEF1C9B@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1330981087.63871.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

True, it's a wonderful game. But?Hall's spin was interesting. This essay should be included in his greatest hits. 

--- On Mon, 3/5/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Monday, March 5, 2012, 3:42 PM







?





In fact, Hall concludes with this defining sentence:
?
Although in theory workshops serve a useful purpose in gathering young artists together, workshop practices enforce the McPoem. 

Some thoughts.? College workshops or the equivalent in all subjects gather together young apprentices in their subjects and teach what the conventional understanding at the time of the subject.? A poetry workshop will enforce the McPoem only on those without the natural aptitude to do other kinds of poems.? Amusingly, while Hall?s poems may not be ?McPoems,? they most certainly are Wilshberian.? Most workshops, like most anything, will be less than super-effective, but most will be okay.? 
?
I think asking poets, journeymen as well as apprentices, to write poems without adjectives or?better?without either verbs or nouns, is a great idea.? Basically such ?games? are the main value of the genuine language poem, one of the very few significant alternatives we have to the McPoem.?? Another, of course, is adding non-verbal elements to poems.? If composing poetry isn?t a game for you (however serious a one), I would wonder why you?re bothering with it. 
?
It just now struck me that a big problem with the whole idea of teaching poetry is that you will end, as in the teaching of just about any subject, with many mediocre journeymen who will never significantly improve, or stray from what the status quo is in their field.? This is a problem in poetry that it is not in other fields because there?s no real place in society for mediocre poets other than in teaching (or maybe at Hallmark).? In engineering, for instance, there?s a strong demand for mediocre engineers?engineers, that is, who can carry out engineering tasks conventionally but soundly.? Many mediocre composers can be used in orchestras and bands.? There are many openings, too, for good but uninspired representational visual artists.? 
?
Seems to me that all that is most wrong with college poetry programs could be taken care of with one widely-circulated decent college anthology of poetry?that included decent criticism of poetry.? I won?t define what I think would be a decent anthology because I know how annoying that would be.? I will say it would contain a fair amount of Wilshberian poems?and McPoems.
?
--Bob
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Mar  5 16:17:43 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 16:17:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
In-Reply-To: <1330981087.63871.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1330981087.63871.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6438BC8C8BF342069A97F5E34A2AEC50@BobHP>

      True, it's a wonderful game. But Hall's spin was interesting. This essay should be included in his greatest hits.  


Yeah.  I give him points for being instrumental in getting that discussion (and a few other good ones) going?although, sure, like everything else, poor versions of it have been repeated ad nauseam.  Hey, how?s this for my motto for Teaching an Introductory Course in Poetry: Expose your students to as wide a range of poetry as you can, with passion for your favorites, and against the ones you like least.

I think the best way to capture students for poetry is to express passion in favor of those poems you love; the second-best way is to express passion against those poems you hate.  A certain percentage of your best students will automatically dive into the latter?those biologically incapable of not reacting against authority.  Oddly, I genuinely can?t think of a kind of poetry I hate, but could find quite I few I don?t like at all.  The expression of pssionate confusion would be good to?as in ?What in the world is Gertrude trying to say or do here??

--Bob
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Mar  6 13:28:29 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 13:28:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
In-Reply-To: <6438BC8C8BF342069A97F5E34A2AEC50@BobHP>
References: <1330981087.63871.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<6438BC8C8BF342069A97F5E34A2AEC50@BobHP>
Message-ID: <7D864A44A13047B090DE8E5F659A2632@BobHP>

The fact that poets (and other artists) have to compete with the dead in their vocations?is it a wonderfully inspiring, or a frustratingly near-impossible, challenge (particularly considering that the dead tend to accumulate points faster than the living ever can)?  To me, there?s no hope for anyone who isn?t satisfied to imitate the dead.  Such a person must be satisfied with daydreams about the strides he?ll make once safely dead.
--Bob
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  6 14:18:06 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 11:18:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
In-Reply-To: <6438BC8C8BF342069A97F5E34A2AEC50@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1331061486.68009.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>


Most kids who take these workshops have read little, and have thought little about poetry or art. Poetry is simply a means of self-expression
 for most of them. & that may explain the existence of the McPoem, 
an uninspired string of inoffensive sentences. If universities taught 
poetry as a subject worthy of serious study we'd probably have less 
McPoems, and more outstanding, innovative verse. A Make It New ethos
 worthy of NietzNietzsched be an interesting approach. In order to make 
it new, one would have to know the old. One would have to know how to? "Make it new." 

--- On Mon, 3/5/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Monday, March 5, 2012, 4:17 PM













  
  
    True, it's a wonderful game. But Hall's spin was 
      interesting. This essay should be included in his greatest hits. 
  
?
Yeah.? I give him points for being instrumental in 
getting that discussion (and a few other good ones) going?although, sure, like 
everything else, poor versions of it have been repeated ad nauseam.? Hey, 
how?s this for my motto for Teaching an Introductory Course in Poetry: Expose 
your students to as wide a range of poetry as you can, with passion for your 
favorites, and against the ones you like least.
?
I think the best way to capture students for poetry is to 
express passion in favor of those poems you love; the second-best way is to 
express passion against those poems you hate.? A certain percentage of your 
best students will automatically dive into the latter?those biologically 
incapable of not reacting against authority.? Oddly, I genuinely can?t 
think of a kind of poetry I hate, but could find quite I few I don?t like at 
all.? The expression of pssionate confusion would be good to?as in ?What in 
the world is Gertrude trying to say or do here??
?
--Bob

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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  6 14:43:47 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 11:43:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
In-Reply-To: <1331061486.68009.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1331063027.94457.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

For instance: Students would first know the history of poetry. The ancients, the major English speaking poets ... Chaucer, Donne ... the Romantics, Blake ... just as a philosophy student studies Plato, Aristotle, and perhaps the pre-Socratic philosophers (Heidegger's expertise), before moving on to the modern schools of thought. A philosophy student is aware of the beginning of modern philosophy (Descartes), and should have some familiarity with Kant before plunging into the 2Oth century. Why shouldn't a student of poetry have a similiar grounding?

--- On Tue, 3/6/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Tuesday, March 6, 2012, 2:18 PM


Most kids who take these workshops have read little, and have thought little about poetry or art. Poetry is simply a means of self-expression
 for most of them. & that may explain the existence of the McPoem, 
an uninspired string of inoffensive sentences. If universities taught 
poetry as a subject worthy of serious study we'd probably have less 
McPoems, and more outstanding, innovative verse. A Make It New ethos
 worthy of NietzNietzsched be an interesting approach. In order to make 
it new, one would have to know the old. One would have to know how to? "Make it new." 

--- On Mon, 3/5/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Monday, March 5, 2012, 4:17 PM













  
  
    True, it's a wonderful game. But Hall's spin was 
      interesting. This essay should be included in his greatest hits. 
  
?
Yeah.? I give him points for being instrumental in 
getting that discussion (and a few other good ones) going?although, sure, like 
everything else, poor versions of it have been repeated ad nauseam.? Hey, 
how?s this for my motto for Teaching an Introductory Course in Poetry: Expose 
your students to as wide a range of poetry as you can, with passion for your 
favorites, and against the ones you like least.
?
I think the best way to capture students for poetry is to 
express passion in favor of those poems you love; the second-best way is to 
express passion against those poems you hate.? A certain percentage of your 
best students will automatically dive into the latter?those biologically 
incapable of not reacting against authority.? Oddly, I genuinely can?t 
think of a kind of poetry I hate, but could find quite I few I don?t like at 
all.? The expression of pssionate confusion would be good to?as in ?What in 
the world is Gertrude trying to say or do here??
?
--Bob

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  6 15:05:25 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 12:05:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
In-Reply-To: <1331063027.94457.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1331064325.15915.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

?or perhaps have students develop and defend an aesthetic. 

--- On Tue, 3/6/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Tuesday, March 6, 2012, 2:43 PM

For instance: Students would first know the history of poetry. The ancients, the major English speaking poets ... Chaucer, Donne ... the Romantics, Blake ... just as a philosophy student studies Plato, Aristotle, and perhaps the pre-Socratic philosophers (Heidegger's expertise), before moving on to the modern schools of thought. A philosophy student is aware of the beginning of modern philosophy (Descartes), and should have some familiarity with Kant before plunging into the 2Oth century. Why shouldn't a student of poetry have a similiar grounding?

--- On Tue, 3/6/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ...
 ten million served
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Tuesday, March 6, 2012, 2:18 PM


Most kids who take these workshops have read little, and have thought little about poetry or art. Poetry is simply a means of self-expression
 for most of them. & that may explain the existence of the McPoem, 
an uninspired string of inoffensive sentences. If universities taught 
poetry as a subject worthy of serious study we'd probably have less 
McPoems, and more outstanding, innovative verse. A Make It New ethos
 worthy of NietzNietzsched be an interesting approach. In order to make 
it new, one would have to know the old. One would have to know how to? "Make it new." 

--- On Mon, 3/5/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Monday, March 5, 2012, 4:17 PM













  
  
    True, it's a wonderful game. But Hall's spin was 
      interesting. This essay should be included in his greatest hits. 
  
?
Yeah.? I give him points for being instrumental in 
getting that discussion (and a few other good ones) going?although, sure, like 
everything else, poor versions of it have been repeated ad nauseam.? Hey, 
how?s this for my motto for Teaching an Introductory Course in Poetry: Expose 
your students to as wide a range of poetry as you can, with passion for your 
favorites, and against the ones you like least.
?
I think the best way to capture students for poetry is to 
express passion in favor of those poems you love; the second-best way is to 
express passion against those poems you hate.? A certain percentage of your 
best students will automatically dive into the latter?those biologically 
incapable of not reacting against authority.? Oddly, I genuinely can?t 
think of a kind of poetry I hate, but could find quite I few I don?t like at 
all.? The expression of pssionate confusion would be good to?as in ?What in 
the world is Gertrude trying to say or do here??
?
--Bob

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Mar  6 15:07:53 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 15:07:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
In-Reply-To: <1331063027.94457.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1331063027.94457.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7577B18B18BD42BD877549138F48626B@BobHP>

You?re sounding like Pound.  Only problem is deciding which poets you should be familiar with.  I agree you ought to know a reasonable number of dead poets, a few of them in depth, but would not want to make any list of ones you need to know.  Maybe a list of a thousand at least twenty of whom you should know fairly well and five of whom you should know extremely well.  With a hope that they would not be all in the same school or similar schools.  Even if the school was visual poetry.

--Bob

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 2:43 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served

      For instance: Students would first know the history of poetry. The ancients, the major English speaking poets ... Chaucer, Donne ... the Romantics, Blake ... just as a philosophy student studies Plato, Aristotle, and perhaps the pre-Socratic philosophers (Heidegger's expertise), before moving on to the modern schools of thought. A philosophy student is aware of the beginning of modern philosophy (Descartes), and should have some familiarity with Kant before plunging into the 2Oth century. Why shouldn't a student of poetry have a similiar grounding?

      --- On Tue, 3/6/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:


        From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
        Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
        To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
        Date: Tuesday, March 6, 2012, 2:18 PM



              Most kids who take these workshops have read little, and have thought little about poetry or art. Poetry is simply a means of self-expression for most of them. & that may explain the existence of the McPoem, an uninspired string of inoffensive sentences. If universities taught poetry as a subject worthy of serious study we'd probably have less McPoems, and more outstanding, innovative verse. A Make It New ethos worthy of NietzNietzsched be an interesting approach. In order to make it new, one would have to know the old. One would have to know how to  "Make it new." 

              --- On Mon, 3/5/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


                From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
                Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
                To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
                Date: Monday, March 5, 2012, 4:17 PM


                      True, it's a wonderful game. But Hall's spin was interesting. This essay should be included in his greatest hits.  


                Yeah.  I give him points for being instrumental in getting that discussion (and a few other good ones) going?although, sure, like everything else, poor versions of it have been repeated ad nauseam.  Hey, how?s this for my motto for Teaching an Introductory Course in Poetry: Expose your students to as wide a range of poetry as you can, with passion for your favorites, and against the ones you like least.

                I think the best way to capture students for poetry is to express passion in favor of those poems you love; the second-best way is to express passion against those poems you hate.  A certain percentage of your best students will automatically dive into the latter?those biologically incapable of not reacting against authority.  Oddly, I genuinely can?t think of a kind of poetry I hate, but could find quite I few I don?t like at all.  The expression of pssionate confusion would be good to?as in ?What in the world is Gertrude trying to say or do here??

                --Bob

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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  6 15:20:16 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 12:20:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
In-Reply-To: <7577B18B18BD42BD877549138F48626B@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1331065216.18810.YahooMailClassic@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

... I suffer from a fatal condition known as Pound envy ... since Ezra seemed to know everything ...in several languages ...? going way back ... Actually, knowing a few non- English speaking poets in their native languages is probably as good, if not better, than the program I outlined below. 

... come to think of it, who'd want to emulate Pound? Wasn't the guy a nutcase? The Italians thought so. 



--- On Tue, 3/6/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Tuesday, March 6, 2012, 3:07 PM





You?re sounding like Pound.? Only problem is deciding which poets you 
should be familiar with.? I agree you ought to know a reasonable number of 
dead poets, a few of them in depth, but would not want to make any list of ones 
you need to know.? Maybe a list of a thousand at least twenty of whom you 
should know fairly well and five of whom you should know extremely well.? 
With a hope that they would not be all in the same school or similar 
schools.? Even if the school was visual poetry.
?
--Bob


?

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 2:43 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million 
served
?


  
  
    For instance: Students would first know the history of 
      poetry. The ancients, the major English speaking poets ... Chaucer, Donne 
      ... the Romantics, Blake ... just as a philosophy student studies Plato, 
      Aristotle, and perhaps the pre-Socratic philosophers (Heidegger's 
      expertise), before moving on to the modern schools of thought. A 
      philosophy student is aware of the beginning of modern philosophy 
      (Descartes), and should have some familiarity with Kant before plunging 
      into the 2Oth century. Why shouldn't a student of poetry have a similiar 
      grounding?

--- On Tue, 3/6/12, stephen russell 
      <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

      
From: 
        stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: 
        [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
To: "NewPoetry List" 
        <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Tuesday, March 6, 2012, 2:18 
        PM


        
        
          
          
            
Most kids who take these workshops have read 
              little, and have thought little about poetry or art. Poetry is 
              simply a means of self-expression for most of 
              them. & that may explain the existence of the McPoem, an 
              uninspired string of inoffensive sentences. If universities taught 
              poetry as a subject worthy of serious study we'd probably have 
              less McPoems, and more outstanding, innovative verse. A Make It New ethos worthy of 
              NietzNietzsched be an interesting approach. In order to make it 
              new, one would have to know the old. One would have to know how to? "Make it new." 
              

--- On Mon, 3/5/12, bob grumman 
              <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

              
From: 
                bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: 
                [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
To: "NewPoetry 
                List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Monday, March 
                5, 2012, 4:17 PM


                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                  
                  
                    True, it's a wonderful game. But Hall's 
                      spin was interesting. This essay should be included in his 
                      greatest hits. 
                ?
                Yeah.? I give him points for being 
                instrumental in getting that discussion (and a few other good 
                ones) going?although, sure, like everything else, poor versions 
                of it have been repeated ad nauseam.? Hey, how?s this for 
                my motto for Teaching an Introductory Course in Poetry: Expose 
                your students to as wide a range of poetry as you can, with 
                passion for your favorites, and against the ones you 
                like least.
                ?
                I think the best way to capture students 
                for poetry is to express passion in favor of those poems you 
                love; the second-best way is to express passion against those 
                poems you hate.? A certain percentage of your best students 
                will automatically dive into the latter?those biologically 
                incapable of not reacting against authority.? Oddly, I 
                genuinely can?t think of a kind of poetry I hate, but could find 
                quite I few I don?t like at all.? The expression of 
                pssionate confusion would be good to?as in ?What in the world is 
                Gertrude trying to say or do here??
                ?
                --Bob
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_______________________________________________
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list
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From ahadada at gol.com  Tue Mar  6 16:30:15 2012
From: ahadada at gol.com (ahadada at gol.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 21:30:15 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Donald Hall and the Golden Arches
Message-ID: <GYMAxGwO.1331069415.5769430.ahadada@gol.com>

I like D. H.'s sentiment, but his poems leave me cold.  Workshops feed
the great American money-making industry of Creative Writing Programs
evident to anyone who attends the AWP convention where Cr. Writing INC.
& appendages struts its stuff.  On the personal level workshops are a
bit like sugar pills and laying on of hands.  If a student believes
strong enough, then they're healed.  Hall addresses the real value of
having strong voices nearby that will offer advice as needed.  Emily
Dickinson had such a voice (for a time) in her sister-in-law Susan.  Too
many friends, however, and one risks the send-off I saw happen to a
likely young fellow at St. Marks Poetry Project who read wretched stuff
in the midst of in-jokes, eye-winkings, ear-wrigglings, hand-signals,
and other gestures of "belonging" to the in-crowd.

What Hall doesn't mention is that we have Mccarpenters, Mcprinters,
Mcpotters, and lots of Mcmediocre folks who attempt the real stuff and
end up creating mediocre things of all sorts.

We have Mcsushi masters in Japan too--you see them making supermarket
sushi--and it's not too bad, but nothing like the work of a master. 
Jess




From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  6 16:52:24 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 13:52:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Donald Hall and the Golden Arches
In-Reply-To: <GYMAxGwO.1331069415.5769430.ahadada@gol.com>
Message-ID: <1331070744.20532.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

I've suspected as much, that creative writing programs exist because they're profitable. Some may be useful. Iowa, for instance. Since it attracts top talent. 

--- On Tue, 3/6/12, ahadada at gol.com <ahadada at gol.com> wrote:

From: ahadada at gol.com <ahadada at gol.com>
Subject: [New-Poetry] Donald Hall and the Golden Arches
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Date: Tuesday, March 6, 2012, 4:30 PM

I like D. H.'s sentiment, but his poems leave me cold.? Workshops feed
the great American money-making industry of Creative Writing Programs
evident to anyone who attends the AWP convention where Cr. Writing INC.
& appendages struts its stuff.? On the personal level workshops are a
bit like sugar pills and laying on of hands.? If a student believes
strong enough, then they're healed.? Hall addresses the real value of
having strong voices nearby that will offer advice as needed.? Emily
Dickinson had such a voice (for a time) in her sister-in-law Susan.? Too
many friends, however, and one risks the send-off I saw happen to a
likely young fellow at St. Marks Poetry Project who read wretched stuff
in the midst of in-jokes, eye-winkings, ear-wrigglings, hand-signals,
and other gestures of "belonging" to the in-crowd.

What Hall doesn't mention is that we have Mccarpenters, Mcprinters,
Mcpotters, and lots of Mcmediocre folks who attempt the real stuff and
end up creating mediocre things of all sorts.

We have Mcsushi masters in Japan too--you see them making supermarket
sushi--and it's not too bad, but nothing like the work of a master. 
Jess


_______________________________________________
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  6 17:11:44 2012
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 14:11:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
In-Reply-To: <1330981087.63871.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <A2070EAF38F144E796BAA7572EEF1C9B@BobHP>
	<1330981087.63871.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1331071904.73016.YahooMailNeo@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Wow.? I'm so glad I've been away to find that New Poetry is populated, nay, overrun as always by this caliber of absurd proclamations.? After deleting tons of emails from this and last week written by X and? X's twin, I finally made the error of peaking at this latest one to find out what the countless back-and-forth slaps on the backs were about.? 

The zealous and insistent need for some abstract ridiculous Gold Standard poem (to be penned by god-knows-who-can-fit-that-bill) that suits your specific tastes speaks oodles about the myopia of hierarchies and exactly who needs them in order to feel like they are primo in the world.? Just wow to the scuffling that goes into building them and the Emperor's New Clothes conversations that make them "real." ? Y'all should check your mirrors sometimes, take some pictures and get some perspective.

Over and out,

Amy

p.s.? And no, for real, I won't be reading replies to this thread so carry on with whatever backslapping fits you need to? make yourselves feel better ...? it's time to focus my energy and write work that I hope never meets your Golden Standard - and better yet, will undo such perverted and limited ways of thinking (not-thinking).




________________________________
 



>From: bob grumman? 
>
>?In fact, Hall concludes with this defining sentence:
>?
>Although in theory workshops serve a useful purpose in gathering young artists together, workshop practices enforce the McPoem. 
> 
>Some thoughts.? College workshops or the equivalent in all subjects gather together young apprentices in their subjects and teach what the conventional understanding at the time of the subject.? A poetry workshop will enforce the McPoem only on those without the natural aptitude to do other kinds of poems.? Amusingly, while Hall?s poems may not be ?McPoems,? they most certainly are Wilshberian.? Most workshops, like most anything, will be less than super-effective, but most will be okay.? 
>?
>I think asking poets, journeymen as well as apprentices, to write poems without adjectives or?better?without either verbs or nouns, is a great idea.? Basically such ?games? are the main value of the genuine language poem, one of the very few significant alternatives we have to the McPoem.?? Another, of course, is adding non-verbal elements to poems.? If composing poetry isn?t a game for you (however serious a one), I would wonder why you?re bothering with it. 
>?
>It just now struck me that a big problem with the whole idea of teaching poetry is that you will end, as in the teaching of just about any subject, with many mediocre journeymen who will never significantly improve, or stray from what the status quo is in their field.? This is a problem in poetry that it is not in other fields because there?s no real place in society for mediocre poets other than in teaching (or maybe at Hallmark).? In engineering, for instance, there?s a strong demand for mediocre engineers?engineers, that is, who can carry out engineering tasks conventionally but soundly.? Many mediocre composers can be used in orchestras and bands.? There are many openings, too, for good but uninspired representational visual artists.? 
>?
>Seems to me that all that is most wrong with college poetry programs could be taken care of with one widely-circulated decent college anthology of poetry?that included decent criticism of poetry.? I won?t define what I think would be a decent anthology because I know how annoying that would be.? I will say it would contain a fair amount of Wilshberian poems?and McPoems.
>?
>--Bob
> 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Mar  6 17:17:54 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 17:17:54 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Donald Hall and the Golden Arches
In-Reply-To: <1331070744.20532.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1331070744.20532.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C880B3E31E5C40C1A6B6C02EB61C4ECF@BobHP>



From: stephen russell 
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 4:52 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Donald Hall and the Golden Arches

      I've suspected as much, that creative writing programs exist because they're profitable. Some may be useful. Iowa, for instance. Since it attracts top talent.
     

A loud no comment on that, Stephen?but I liked Lloyd Dunn?s work (dunno what he?s been up to for the past twenty years or so), and he came out of Iowa.  I?d be curious to know what schools have produced any of the best poets during the past thirty years.  Harvard produced a lot before 1950, but very few since (none active in my sort of poetry).

--Bob
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  6 18:28:37 2012
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 15:28:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] OT:  Speaking of Whitman's "Democratic Vistas"
Message-ID: <1331076517.95340.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Few Female Bylines in Major Magazines:? Losing the count 
By Erin Siegal @ Columbia Journalism Review

For those unfamiliar with ?The Count,? as VIDA calls it, the numbers are shocking. At The Atlantic, women wrote 64 articles in 2011, while men wrote 184. The overall 
percentage of female bylines dropped 1.5 percent from last year, when 
the numbers were 52 to 158. 


At The New Yorker, whose byline disparity was covered by CJR 
in 2005, men wrote 449 articles in 2010, while women wrote 163?or 26.63 
percent of the total. In 2011, that percentage slid to 26.44 percent. At Harper?s, the number fell to 16.66 percent from 21 percent. Female bylines in the New York Review of Books comprised a mere 12.5 percent of the total in 2011, down from 14.6 percent in 2010. Women?s bylines in the London Review of Books dropped to 13.88 percent from 17.74 percent in 2010. The Boston Review also slipped from 34.96 percent to 31.41 percent. Even progressive magazines like The Nation aren?t gender-equal; in 2011, just 28.71 percent of Nation articles were written by women.* 
Continued here - http://www.cjr.org/behind_the_news/few_female_bylines_in_major_ma.php

"I have sometimes thought, indeed, that the sole avenue and means of a reconstructed sociology
depended, primarily, on a new birth, elevation, expansion, invigoration of woman, affording, for races to
come ... Great, great, indeed,
far greater than they know, is the sphere of women. But doubtless the question of such new sociology all
goes together, includes many varied and complex influences and premises, and the man as well as the
woman, and the woman as well as the man. 
"? --Walt Whitman, Democratic Vistas

The original VIDA Count, complete with appalling visuals - http://www.vidaweb.org/the-count

Please share,

Amy
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From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com  Tue Mar  6 21:18:17 2012
From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 18:18:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

I don't understand the hostility toward writing programs. Yes, most of the writers/poets that graduate from these programs fall somewhere between mediocre and good. Many may be miserable; others might even be very good. So what? Who cares if 5,000--or 50,000--"certified" poets are freshly minted each year??



And why shouldn't they do stupid assignments? And so what if these assignments don't produce good poems. I remember running scales on the guitar and the piano--those didn't create good songs. I remember my brother drawing train tracks and city streets to practice perspective, or painting balls and cones to practice shading--no good artwork there. Ever hear a singer practicing or watch a dancer do the same moves over and over? ?No art there.

All art demands practice--but it's not to create decent art then. It's for the sake of understanding their art, so they might--MIGHT--create something worthwhile later. And if they don't, so what? Some people just enjoy writing poems or painting or playing music. They don't have to be great.

Beside, poetry is not a zero-sum game. No art is. Crowds of mediocre poets do not somehow muscle out the number of good poets. The fact that the Osmonds existed did not affect Led Zepplin. Someone painting tigers on black velvet did not hurt Jackson Pollock. And some graduate of Yourtown Community College poetry program does not dimish the work of Donald Hall.

Finally, all programs, writing or otherwise, exist to make a profit. That's not a knock. It's just economics.

--JohnJ
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Mar  7 06:55:22 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 06:55:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <054831B3E3CB4F3FAAEB80298E70C4F8@BobHP>



From: John Jeffrey 
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 9:18 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?

I don't understand the hostility toward writing programs. Yes, most of the writers/poets that graduate from these programs fall somewhere between mediocre and good. Many may be miserable; others might even be very good. So what? Who cares if 5,000--or 50,000--"certified" poets are freshly minted each year? 


And why shouldn't they do stupid assignments? And so what if these assignments don't produce good poems. I remember running scales on the guitar and the piano--those didn't create good songs. I remember my brother drawing train tracks and city streets to practice perspective, or painting balls and cones to practice shading--no good artwork there. Ever hear a singer practicing or watch a dancer do the same moves over and over?  No art there.

All art demands practice--but it's not to create decent art then. It's for the sake of understanding their art, so they might--MIGHT--create something worthwhile later. And if they don't, so what? Some people just enjoy writing poems or painting or playing music. They don't have to be great.

Beside, poetry is not a zero-sum game. No art is. Crowds of mediocre poets do not somehow muscle out the number of good poets. The fact that the Osmonds existed did not affect Led Zepplin. Someone painting tigers on black velvet did not hurt Jackson Pollock. And some graduate of Yourtown Community College poetry program does not diminish the work of Donald Hall.

Finally, all programs, writing or otherwise, exist to make a profit. That's not a knock. It's just economics.

--JohnJ

What do we do with 50,000 mediocre poets, John?  There are niches in society for fifty thousand mediocre engineers, but where are they for the same number of mediocre poets?  I am, of course, speaking of poetry as a vocation, not as a hobby. 

I wish, too, you would explain why poetry (as a serious vocation) is not, like everything I know of, a zero-sum game.  Sure, no poet can be kept from composing poems by crowds of other poets.  But the zero-sum game comes into effect for poets who want to be read.  Or heard.  Take a simple one-evening poetry reading: if five hundred poets want to read at it, and can fit into the space set aside for the reading, some have to be losers?unless you have them all read at once, in which case they?ll all be partial losers because all will be heard but none properly heard. 

--Bob 


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From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  7 08:50:26 2012
From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 05:50:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <054831B3E3CB4F3FAAEB80298E70C4F8@BobHP>
References: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<054831B3E3CB4F3FAAEB80298E70C4F8@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1331128226.92677.YahooMailNeo@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

We don't do anything with them.? They do (or try) what they can.? The market bears what the market bears.? Take the 50,000 engineers, in the end, most of the the top jobs will go to the top engineers.? Sure, some top jobs will go to mediocre engineers, where they will probably prove that they are mediocre engineers.? In time. the mediocre engineers will do smaller, less demanding jobs within a larger project, where their mediocrity is not a problem.

For poets, the mediocre poets will publish and sell like hot cakes, nor publish and not sell, or self-publish and give away copies, or not publish at all, or turn to writing ad copy.? So what?? How is that going to affect either a good (and living at the time) poet laden with awards and publishing credits (say, Longfellow or Hall) or a great (though recognized after death) poet writing in obscurity (say, Dickinson or...um...Grumman)?


I can't think of a artistic or commercial activity that is a true zero-sum game.? Certainly not poetry, since there's no poetry market for it.? If only 20 poets can read at a reading due to time constraints but there are 500 poets who want to read, someone should start another poetry reading or two or ten.? I don't see how that's a problem.? If that particular reading has a certain prestige and that's why a poet "just has to read there and only there or I'll die I'll just die" then.. bummer.? Arrive earlier and sign up.? Write better.? Befriend the host.? Start a new one and build prestige.? It's not because they've taken away a few chairs and we poets are circling around the remaining chairs and the music is just about to stop and only 5 of us can find seats for our butts and--? OMG!? The music stopped!


--JohnJ


------------------------------------


What do we do with 50,000 mediocre poets, John?? There 
are niches in society for fifty thousand mediocre engineers, but where are they 
for the same number of mediocre poets?? I am, of course, speaking of poetry 
as a vocation, not as a hobby. 
I wish, too, you would explain why poetry (as a serious 
vocation) is not, like everything I know of, a zero-sum game.? Sure, no 
poet can be kept from composing poems by crowds of other poets.? But the 
zero-sum game comes into effect for poets who want to be read.? Or 
heard.? Take a simple one-evening poetry reading: if five hundred poets 
want to read at it, and can fit into the space set aside for the reading, some 
have to be losers?unless you have them all read at once, in which case they?ll 
all be partial losers because all will be heard but none properly heard.
 
--Bob
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From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  7 09:06:39 2012
From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 06:06:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <1331128226.92677.YahooMailNeo@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<054831B3E3CB4F3FAAEB80298E70C4F8@BobHP>
	<1331128226.92677.YahooMailNeo@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1331129199.3864.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

By the way, this made me laugh: "I am, of course, speaking of poetry 
as a vocation, not as a hobby."

Poetry as a vocation.? Good one.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Mar  7 09:31:43 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 09:31:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <1331128226.92677.YahooMailNeo@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yah
	oo.com><054831B3E3CB4F3FAAEB80298E70C4F8@BobHP>
	<1331128226.92677.YahooMailNeo@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5578B547DC6548A9BC9633054F6E84E7@BobHP>

We don't do anything with them.  They do (or try) what they can.  The market bears what the market bears.  Take the 50,000 engineers, in the end, most of the the top jobs will go to the top engineers.  Sure, some top jobs will go to mediocre engineers, where they will probably prove that they are mediocre engineers.  In time. the mediocre engineers will do smaller, less demanding jobs within a larger project, where their mediocrity is not a problem.

Most of the engineers will get engineering jobs, however mediocre they are.  Very few of the poets will get poetry jobs, however good they are..

For poets, the mediocre poets will publish and sell like hot cakes, nor publish and not sell, or self-publish and give away copies, or not publish at all, or turn to writing ad copy.  So what?  How is that going to affect either a good (and living at the time) poet laden with awards and publishing credits (say, Longfellow or Hall) or a great (though recognized after death) poet writing in obscurity (say, Dickinson or...um...Grumman)?

The mediocre poets who sell like hotcakes will reduce money available for other poets.  

I can't think of a artistic or commercial activity that is a true zero-sum game.  Certainly not poetry, since there's no poetry market for it.  If only 20 poets can read at a reading due to time constraints but there are 500 poets who want to read, someone should start another poetry reading or two or ten.  I don't see how that's a problem.  If that particular reading has a certain prestige and that's why a poet "just has to read there and only there or I'll die I'll just die" then.. bummer.  Arrive earlier and sign up.  Write better.  Befriend the host.  Start a new one and build prestige.  It's not because they've taken away a few chairs and we poets are circling around the remaining chairs and the music is just about to stop and only 5 of us can find seats for our butts and--  OMG!  The music stopped!

Right?compete, and take away a slot from some other poet.  And dream that there are infinite slots available to you in your infinitely long life as a poet.


Either you or I has no idea what a zero sum game is, John.  Or the difference between a vocation and a hobby.  Just because almost no one will pay money for my poetry, and very few will even pay it a few moments of attention does not make poetry a hobby for me.

--Bob

 


------------------------------------


What do we do with 50,000 mediocre poets, John?  There are niches in society for fifty thousand mediocre engineers, but where are they for the same number of mediocre poets?  I am, of course, speaking of poetry as a vocation, not as a hobby. 
I wish, too, you would explain why poetry (as a serious vocation) is not, like everything I know of, a zero-sum game.  Sure, no poet can be kept from composing poems by crowds of other poets.  But the zero-sum game comes into effect for poets who want to be read.  Or heard.  Take a simple one-evening poetry reading: if five hundred poets want to read at it, and can fit into the space set aside for the reading, some have to be losers?unless you have them all read at once, in which case they?ll all be partial losers because all will be heard but none properly heard.


--Bob




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  7 10:34:24 2012
From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 07:34:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <5578B547DC6548A9BC9633054F6E84E7@BobHP>
References: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yah
	oo.com><054831B3E3CB4F3FAAEB80298E70C4F8@BobHP>
	<1331128226.92677.YahooMailNeo@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<5578B547DC6548A9BC9633054F6E84E7@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1331134464.57951.YahooMailNeo@web120504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>



???? The mediocre poets who sell like hotcakes will reduce 
money available for other poets.

I disagree.? If someone is interested in poetry and buys poetry books, then they will buy poetry books.? Whether the author of these books views poetry as a vocation or a hobby doesn't change anything.? It's the poems that matter, not the author's feelings.? Also, if Billy Collins and Mary Oliver didn't publish, that wouldn't automatically translate 
into people buying other, different books of poetry.? It's not like people have a quota of books to buy or read and no more.? If they buy poetry, then 
they'll buy poetry--but usually only in the style they like.? Perhaps someday their reading (or some other impetus) will lead them to try other styles, and maybe they'll like them or maybe they won't, but it's not because Billy Collins sells some books.


To use a music analogy, since music does sell, Britney Spears, Lady Gaga, Katie Perry, Taylor Swift, they sells millions of CDs.? Yey if they never came along, that would not increase the sales of opera or jazz or even of alternative styles of pop music.? People listen to and buy what they like.? One could even argue that the existence of Spears (and of those who led to her) helped the sales of similar singers who came next.? One could argue further that Britney-buying teens will grow up and someday buy a wider, deeper range of music, increasing the sales of others, as well, since that early introduction to music--even bubble-gum--set in place a lifelong love.? Hell, I once bought a Grass Roots album back in the day.

--JohnJ




>________________________________
> From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
>Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 9:31 AM
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
> 
>
>We don't do anything with them.? They do (or try) what they 
can.? The market bears what the market bears.? Take the 50,000 
engineers, in the end, most of the the top jobs will go to the top 
engineers.? Sure, some top jobs will go to mediocre engineers, where they 
will probably prove that they are mediocre engineers.? In time. the 
mediocre engineers will do smaller, less demanding jobs within a larger project, 
where their mediocrity is not a problem. 
>?
>Most of the engineers will get engineering jobs, however 
mediocre they are.? Very few of the poets will get poetry jobs, however 
good they are..
>?
>For poets, the mediocre poets will publish and sell like 
hot cakes, nor publish and not sell, or self-publish and give away copies, or 
not publish at all, or turn to writing ad copy.? So what?? How is that 
going to affect either a good (and living at the time) poet laden with awards 
and publishing credits (say, Longfellow or Hall) or a great (though recognized 
after death) poet writing in obscurity (say, Dickinson 
or...um...Grumman)?
>?
>The mediocre poets who sell like hotcakes will reduce 
money available for other poets.? 
>?
>I can't think of a artistic or commercial activity that is a true 
zero-sum game.? Certainly not poetry, since there's no poetry market for 
it.? If only 20 poets can read at a reading due to time constraints but 
there are 500 poets who want to read, someone should start another poetry 
reading or two or ten.? I don't see how that's a problem.? If that 
particular reading has a certain prestige and that's why a poet "just has to 
read there and only there or I'll die I'll just die" then.. bummer.? Arrive 
earlier and sign up.? Write better.? Befriend the host.? Start a 
new one and build prestige.? It's not because they've taken away a few 
chairs and we poets are circling around the remaining chairs and the music is 
just about to stop and only 5 of us can find seats for our butts and--? OMG!? The music stopped!
>?
>Right?compete, and take away a slot from some other 
poet.? And dream that there are infinite slots available to you in your 
infinitely long life as a poet.
> 
>Either you or I has no idea what a zero 
sum game is, John.? Or the difference between a vocation and a hobby.? 
Just because almost no one will pay money for my poetry, and very few will even 
pay it a few moments of attention does not make poetry a hobby for 
me.
>?
>--Bob
>
>?
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>
>What do we do with 50,000 mediocre poets, John?? There are 
niches in society for fifty thousand mediocre engineers, but where are they for 
the same number of mediocre poets?? I am, of course, speaking of poetry as 
a vocation, not as a hobby. 
>I wish, too, you would explain why poetry (as a serious vocation) is 
not, like everything I know of, a zero-sum game.? Sure, no poet can be kept 
from composing poems by crowds of other poets.? But the zero-sum game comes 
into effect for poets who want to be read.? Or heard.? Take a simple 
one-evening poetry reading: if five hundred poets want to read at it, and can 
fit into the space set aside for the reading, some have to be losers?unless you 
have them all read at once, in which case they?ll all be partial losers because 
all will be heard but none properly heard.
>
>
>--Bob
>?
>?
>________________________________
> _______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing 
list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Mar  7 10:54:27 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 10:54:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <1331134464.57951.YahooMailNeo@web120504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yah
	oo.com><054831B3E3CB4F3FAAEB80298E70C4F8@BobHP><1331128226.92677.YahooMailNeo@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><5578B547DC6548A9BC9
	633054F6E84E7@BobHP>
	<1331134464.57951.YahooMailNeo@web120504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4CED690948824611B641BD3AFE4818A2@BobHP>



From: John Jeffrey 
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 10:34 AM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?



     The mediocre poets who sell like hotcakes will reduce money available for other poets.


I disagree.  If someone is interested in poetry and buys poetry books, then they will buy poetry books.

John, there is only so much money available for poetry books.  If it?s used for books A, B, C, etc., it?s not available for A, B, C, etc.  The authors of the first group win, the authors of the second group lose.  That?s what the zero sum game is.  Winners and losers.  I really can?t understand how you (and Chris) are unable to see that.

--Bob
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From halvard at gmail.com  Wed Mar  7 11:12:44 2012
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 10:12:44 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <054831B3E3CB4F3FAAEB80298E70C4F8@BobHP>
References: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<054831B3E3CB4F3FAAEB80298E70C4F8@BobHP>
Message-ID: <CANrCfqEwAsJtSofbymu=Qies1fG5+OLGqVpFzs0xtfMKf0pc9Q@mail.gmail.com>

50,000 mediocre poets might be 50,000 better than average
readers of poetry.


Serving the tri-state area.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com

On Barcelona <http://onbarcelona.blogspot.com/> (submissions sought; email
to my address above)
Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
Remains To Be Seen <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>*, Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. II) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>,** Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. III) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Sonnets
from the Basque & Other Poems <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>
*, *Mainly Black <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Obras
P?blicas <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **The Perfection
of Mozart's Third Eye and Other
Sonnets<http://www.scribd.com/doc/27039868/Halvard-Johnson-THE-PERFECTION-OF-MOZART-S-THIRD-EYE-Other-Sonnets>
; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of
Clones<http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Entrance-Clones-Halvard-Johnson/dp/0965404390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283182804&sr=8-1>
; **Tango Bouquet <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **Theory
of Harmony<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall04/theory1.pdf>
; **Rapsodie espagnole<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/rapsodi.pdf>
; **Guide to the Tokyo
Subway<http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Tokyo-Subway-Other-Poems/dp/0971487316/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283183153&sr=1-3>
; **The Sonnet Project<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/hsonnet.pdf>
; **G(e)nome <http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall03/genome.pdf>; **Winter
Journey <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.winter.html>;
**Eclipse<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.eclipse.html>
; **The Dance of the Red Swan <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.dance.html>
; **Transparencies & Projections<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.transp.html>
*




On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:55 AM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:

>
>
>  *From:* John Jeffrey <jjeffreymail at yahoo.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 06, 2012 9:18 PM
> *To:* NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
>
>  I don't understand the hostility toward writing programs. Yes, most of
> the writers/poets that graduate from these programs fall somewhere between
> mediocre and good. Many may be miserable; others might even be very good.
> So what? Who cares if 5,000--or 50,000--"certified" poets are freshly
> minted each year?
>
> And why shouldn't they do stupid assignments? And so what if these
> assignments don't produce good poems. I remember running scales on the
> guitar and the piano--those didn't create good songs. I remember my brother
> drawing train tracks and city streets to practice perspective, or painting
> balls and cones to practice shading--no good artwork there. Ever hear a
> singer practicing or watch a dancer do the same moves over and over?  No
> art there.
>
> All art demands practice--but it's not to create decent art then. It's
> for the sake of understanding their art, so they might--MIGHT--create
> something worthwhile later. And if they don't, so what? Some people just
> enjoy writing poems or painting or playing music. They don't have to be
> great.
>
> Beside, poetry is not a zero-sum game. No art is. Crowds of mediocre poets
> do not somehow muscle out the number of good poets. The fact that the
> Osmonds existed did not affect Led Zepplin. Someone painting tigers on
> black velvet did not hurt Jackson Pollock. And some graduate of Yourtown
> Community College poetry program does not diminish the work of Donald Hall.
>
> Finally, all programs, writing or otherwise, exist to make a profit.
> That's not a knock. It's just economics.
>
> --JohnJ
>
>
> What do we do with 50,000 mediocre poets, John?  There are niches in
> society for fifty thousand mediocre engineers, but where are they for the
> same number of mediocre poets?  I am, of course, speaking of poetry as a
> vocation, not as a hobby.
>
> I wish, too, you would explain why poetry (as a serious vocation) is not,
> like everything I know of, a zero-sum game.  Sure, no poet can be kept from
> composing poems by crowds of other poets.  But the zero-sum game comes into
> effect for poets who want to be read.  Or heard.  Take a simple one-evening
> poetry reading: if five hundred poets want to read at it, and can fit into
> the space set aside for the reading, some have to be losers?unless you have
> them all read at once, in which case they?ll all be partial losers because
> all will be heard but none properly heard.
>
> --Bob
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  7 11:32:47 2012
From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 08:32:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <4CED690948824611B641BD3AFE4818A2@BobHP>
References: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yah
	oo.com><054831B3E3CB4F3FAAEB80298E70C4F8@BobHP><1331128226.92677.YahooMailNeo@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><5578B547DC6548A9BC9
	633054F6E84E7@BobHP>
	<1331134464.57951.YahooMailNeo@web120504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<4CED690948824611B641BD3AFE4818A2@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1331137967.33892.YahooMailNeo@web120506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

So how much money is there?? And if there is only "so much money available for poetry," then wouldn't the number of poetry books sold each year be near a constant?? (Unless there's a huge cache of poetry money out there just waiting for the next big thing.)


Books by A,B,C will sell if people like their style.? And books by D,E,F will sell if people like their style.? If people don't, then they won't sell or be read.? If people really like A,B,C and want more, then they may look for others that write like A,B,C.? Maybe some find L and others find P.? A few more like only a certain type of poem in the A.B.C books and they will find W, who writes those types of poems.? And W then leads them to X,Y,Z.


Yet maybe D never sells because no one likes it or doesn't understand it or has never heard of it.? Maybe E sells a few copies because it's difficult and there's a smaller audience for difficult poetry.? Maybe F sells but only after the readers grow bored of A,B,C.

Whatever the reasons are, it's not because there's a finite amount of money.? And without a finite, there's no zero-sum.


--JohnJ





>________________________________
> From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
>Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 10:54 AM
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
> 
>
>?
>From: John Jeffrey 
>Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 10:34 AM
>To: NewPoetry List 
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
>? 
>
>???? The 
mediocre poets who sell like hotcakes will reduce money available for other 
poets.
>
>?I disagree.? If someone is interested in poetry and buys 
poetry books, then they will buy poetry books.
>?
>John, there is only so much money available for poetry books.? If 
it?s used for books A, B, C, etc., it?s not available for A, B, C, etc.? 
The authors of the first group win, the authors of the second group lose.? 
That?s what the zero sum game is.? Winners and losers.? I really can?t 
understand how you (and Chris) are unable to see that.
>?
>--Bob
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
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From jeff.newberry at gmail.com  Wed Mar  7 11:58:10 2012
From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 11:58:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <4CED690948824611B641BD3AFE4818A2@BobHP>
References: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<054831B3E3CB4F3FAAEB80298E70C4F8@BobHP>
	<1331128226.92677.YahooMailNeo@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<1331134464.57951.YahooMailNeo@web120504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<4CED690948824611B641BD3AFE4818A2@BobHP>
Message-ID: <CAM1hWpf-Cm7VVO_9z6=+XR2DAt22McF8Gg4Q69EbZoirxAnYSQ@mail.gmail.com>

Well, when you boil everything down to a measurable, monetary value, you
get the kind of thinking that you cling to and (oddly) defend.

If you wanted to make money, writing poetry was the wrong game, my friend.
There are easier ways.

--Jeff Newberry

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 10:54 AM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:

>
>
>  *From:* John Jeffrey <jjeffreymail at yahoo.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 07, 2012 10:34 AM
> *To:* NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
>
>
>      The mediocre poets who sell like hotcakes will reduce money
> available for other poets.
>
> I disagree.  If someone is interested in poetry and buys poetry books,
> then they will buy poetry books.
>
> John, there is only so much money available for poetry books.  If it?s
> used for books A, B, C, etc., it?s not available for A, B, C, etc.  The
> authors of the first group win, the authors of the second group lose.
> That?s what the zero sum game is.  Winners and losers.  I really can?t
> understand how you (and Chris) are unable to see that.
>
> --Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics
embodied in language?s natural music.  It isn?t a gush, but a felt and
lived syncopation.  ?Yusef Komunyakaa
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From theoldmole at gmail.com  Wed Mar  7 12:47:32 2012
From: theoldmole at gmail.com (Tad Richards)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 12:47:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAAy7y5QmcAub6iEGnOY_m62Bu7KD+_OnDBL+EZQhySsc8ih2Kg@mail.gmail.com>

Assignments are just that -- exercises to jolt the student out of his/her
established mind set, and to focus on process.

When I teach an undergraduate workshop, I don't assume I am grooming a new
generation of poets. I assume that I'm teaching a literature course, with
the goal of giving my students and understanding and appreciation of
literature from a different perspective.

If some of them go on to seriously pursue writing, I hope I've given them a
start.

And isn't "McPoem" exactly the kind of cheap verbal shortcut Hall is
decrying?

And we are talking about Hall, right? Not Hal?

On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 9:18 PM, John Jeffrey <jjeffreymail at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I don't understand the hostility toward writing programs. Yes, most of the
> writers/poets that graduate from these programs fall somewhere between
> mediocre and good. Many may be miserable; others might even be very good.
> So what? Who cares if 5,000--or 50,000--"certified" poets are freshly
> minted each year?
>
> And why shouldn't they do stupid assignments? And so what if these
> assignments don't produce good poems. I remember running scales on the
> guitar and the piano--those didn't create good songs. I remember my brother
> drawing train tracks and city streets to practice perspective, or painting
> balls and cones to practice shading--no good artwork there. Ever hear a
> singer practicing or watch a dancer do the same moves over and over?  No
> art there.
>
> All art demands practice--but it's not to create decent art then. It's
> for the sake of understanding their art, so they might--MIGHT--create
> something worthwhile later. And if they don't, so what? Some people just
> enjoy writing poems or painting or playing music. They don't have to be
> great.
>
> Beside, poetry is not a zero-sum game. No art is. Crowds of mediocre poets
> do not somehow muscle out the number of good poets. The fact that the
> Osmonds existed did not affect Led Zepplin. Someone painting tigers on
> black velvet did not hurt Jackson Pollock. And some graduate of Yourtown
> Community College poetry program does not dimish the work of Donald Hall.
>
> Finally, all programs, writing or otherwise, exist to make a profit.
> That's not a knock. It's just economics.
>
> --JohnJ
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Wed Mar  7 13:02:00 2012
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 12:02:00 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <CAAy7y5QmcAub6iEGnOY_m62Bu7KD+_OnDBL+EZQhySsc8ih2Kg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CB7CFEB8.7868%GrahamD@ripon.edu>

Amen to all Tad says.

Couple further thoughts.

I?ve had problems with Hall?s unfortunately memorable framing of this issue
since it was first published, for the reasons Tad notes and others.  At his
best Hall is a much sharper critic than this.

But where I agree wholeheartedly with Hall is about what healthy ambition in
a poet is, and his consistent emphasis on taking the long view.  My role
models and deepest inspirations are not the Dickman twins; not even Adrienne
Rich and Galway Kinnell.  I really don?t care who?s stock is currently
selling high or low.  Like Hall, I want to measure myself (however dismaying
it may be) against Shakespeare, Milton, Herrick, Blake, Keats, Dickinson,
Whitman, Frost, Stevens, Williams, et al.

At the AWP conference recently, a couple fellow poets of my acquaintance
criticized other poets with some variation of ?he/she hasn?t read anything
before 1980.?  That?s deadly, I think, and all-too common in the current
scene, along with an unhealthy focus on who?s in or out, whose face is on
the APR cover and so forth.

All of us write our share of McPoems, just as all the poets of 1910 or 1790
did.  Ho hum.  Ultimately it has little to do with MFA programs, I believe,
which have increased the number of poets, perhaps, but not the proportion of
wheat and chaff.  There is always a period style that is hard to look
beyond.  And that?s the reason we still read Milton and Shakespeare?in hope
of putting a toe or two occasionally outside the period style.


On 3/7/12 11:47 AM, "Tad Richards" <theoldmole at gmail.com> wrote:

> Assignments are just that -- exercises to jolt the student out of his/her
> established mind set, and to focus on process.
> 
> When I teach an undergraduate workshop, I don't assume I am grooming a new
> generation of poets. I assume that I'm teaching a literature course, with the
> goal of giving my students and understanding and appreciation of literature
> from a different perspective.
> 
> If some of them go on to seriously pursue writing, I hope I've given them a
> start.
> 
> And isn't "McPoem" exactly the kind of cheap verbal shortcut Hall is decrying?
> 
> And we are talking about Hall, right? Not Hal?
> 
> On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 9:18 PM, John Jeffrey <jjeffreymail at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I don't understand the hostility toward writing programs. Yes, most of the
>> writers/poets that graduate from these programs fall somewhere between
>> mediocre and good. Many may be miserable; others might even be very good. So
>> what? Who cares if 5,000--or 50,000--"certified" poets are freshly minted
>> each year??
>> 
>> And why shouldn't they do stupid assignments? And so what if these
>> assignments don't produce good poems. I remember running scales on the guitar
>> and the piano--those didn't create good songs. I remember my brother drawing
>> train tracks and city streets to practice perspective, or painting balls and
>> cones to practice shading--no good artwork there. Ever hear a singer
>> practicing or watch a dancer do the same moves over and over? ?No art there.
>> 
>> All art demands practice--but it's not to create decent art then. It's for
>> the sake of understanding their art, so they might--MIGHT--create something
>> worthwhile later. And if they don't, so what? Some people just enjoy writing
>> poems or painting or playing music. They don't have to be great.
>> 
>> Beside, poetry is not a zero-sum game. No art is. Crowds of mediocre poets do
>> not somehow muscle out the number of good poets. The fact that the Osmonds
>> existed did not affect Led Zepplin. Someone painting tigers on black velvet
>> did not hurt Jackson Pollock. And some graduate of Yourtown Community College
>> poetry program does not dimish the work of Donald Hall.
>> 
>> Finally, all programs, writing or otherwise, exist to make a profit. That's
>> not a knock. It's just economics.
>> 
>> --JohnJ
>> 
>>    
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-- 

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz

Poetry Library:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================


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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Mar  7 13:54:12 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 13:54:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <CANrCfqEwAsJtSofbymu=Qies1fG5+OLGqVpFzs0xtfMKf0pc9Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yah
	oo.com><054831B3E3CB4F3FAAEB80298E70C4F8@BobHP>
	<CANrCfqEwAsJtSofbymu=Qies1fG5+OLGqVpFzs0xtfMKf0pc9Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C4B7103DD3894CEF9E630F6BDADAF181@BobHP>



From: Halvard Johnson 
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 11:12 AM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?

50,000 mediocre poets might be 50,000 better than average 
readers of poetry.

Absolutely.  (Depending a bit on the workshop.)  Which is an excellent reason for workshops in poetry.  I?d say more but I can?t remember what my point was, or points were.

--Bob


    


Serving the tri-state area.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com


On Barcelona (submissions sought; email to my address above)
Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/



Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections






On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:55 AM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:



  From: John Jeffrey 
  Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 9:18 PM
  To: NewPoetry List 
  Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?

  I don't understand the hostility toward writing programs. Yes, most of the writers/poets that graduate from these programs fall somewhere between mediocre and good. Many may be miserable; others might even be very good. So what? Who cares if 5,000--or 50,000--"certified" poets are freshly minted each year? 


  And why shouldn't they do stupid assignments? And so what if these assignments don't produce good poems. I remember running scales on the guitar and the piano--those didn't create good songs. I remember my brother drawing train tracks and city streets to practice perspective, or painting balls and cones to practice shading--no good artwork there. Ever hear a singer practicing or watch a dancer do the same moves over and over?  No art there.

  All art demands practice--but it's not to create decent art then. It's for the sake of understanding their art, so they might--MIGHT--create something worthwhile later. And if they don't, so what? Some people just enjoy writing poems or painting or playing music. They don't have to be great.

  Beside, poetry is not a zero-sum game. No art is. Crowds of mediocre poets do not somehow muscle out the number of good poets. The fact that the Osmonds existed did not affect Led Zepplin. Someone painting tigers on black velvet did not hurt Jackson Pollock. And some graduate of Yourtown Community College poetry program does not diminish the work of Donald Hall.

  Finally, all programs, writing or otherwise, exist to make a profit. That's not a knock. It's just economics.

  --JohnJ

  What do we do with 50,000 mediocre poets, John?  There are niches in society for fifty thousand mediocre engineers, but where are they for the same number of mediocre poets?  I am, of course, speaking of poetry as a vocation, not as a hobby. 

  I wish, too, you would explain why poetry (as a serious vocation) is not, like everything I know of, a zero-sum game.  Sure, no poet can be kept from composing poems by crowds of other poets.  But the zero-sum game comes into effect for poets who want to be read.  Or heard.  Take a simple one-evening poetry reading: if five hundred poets want to read at it, and can fit into the space set aside for the reading, some have to be losers?unless you have them all read at once, in which case they?ll all be partial losers because all will be heard but none properly heard. 

  --Bob 




  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Mar  7 14:08:09 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 14:08:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <1331137967.33892.YahooMailNeo@web120506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yah
	oo.com><054831B3E3CB4F3FAAEB80298E70C4F8@BobHP><1331128226.92677.YahooMailNeo@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><5578B547DC6548A9BC9
	633054F6E84E7@BobHP><1331134464.57951.YahooMailNeo@web120504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><4CED690948824611B641BD3AFE4818A2@BobHP>
	<1331137967.33892.YahooMailNeo@web120506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C30E8470F7CE4AF29131F5ED4977F2E3@BobHP>



From: John Jeffrey 
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 11:32 AM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?

So how much money is there?  And if there is only "so much money available for poetry," then wouldn't the number of poetry books sold each year be near a constant?  (Unless there's a huge cache of poetry money out there just waiting for the next big thing.)



Books by A,B,C will sell if people like their style.  And books by D,E,F will sell if people like their style.  If people don't, then they won't sell or be read.  If people really like A,B,C and want more, then they may look for others that write like A,B,C.  Maybe some find L and others find P.  A few more like only a certain type of poem in the A.B.C books and they will find W, who writes those types of poems.  And W then leads them to X,Y,Z.



Yet maybe D never sells because no one likes it or doesn't understand it or has never heard of it.  Maybe E sells a few copies because it's difficult and there's a smaller audience for difficult poetry.  Maybe F sells but only after the readers grow bored of A,B,C.


Whatever the reasons are, it's not because there's a finite amount of money.  And without a finite, there's no zero-sum.



--JohnJ

At any given moment, there?s only so much money available.  Or (Jeff) so many available appreciators or venues or whatever the sum relevant to a given poet is.  From moment to moment, whatever the sum consists of changes, often into a zero sum game with more participants, such as from poetry into all books, or all arts, or?eventually?into all human concerns. But the point is that on a given night, at a given venue for a poetry reading, it?s a zero sum game in some way.  If the poets involved are lucky, they will have won a zero sum game with some movie theatre by drawing enough people to hear them to make the occasion worthwhile to them, and not had a significant zero sum game among themselves.  The process can be complicated, but always must involve a zero sum game.  Every breath of air you take results in something?s losing a zero sum game. 

--Bob 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Mar  7 14:15:38 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 14:15:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <CB7CFEB8.7868%GrahamD@ripon.edu>
References: <CB7CFEB8.7868%GrahamD@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <07FB5C1EF2824F35A86F068B0DA4088D@BobHP>

Re: McPoem ... so what?

From: David Graham 
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 1:02 PM
To: NewPoetry 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?

Amen to all Tad says.

Couple further thoughts.

I?ve had problems with Hall?s unfortunately memorable framing of this issue since it was first published, for the reasons Tad notes and others.  At his best Hall is a much sharper critic than this.

But where I agree wholeheartedly with Hall is about what healthy ambition in a poet is, and his consistent emphasis on taking the long view.  My role models and deepest inspirations are not the Dickman twins; not even Adrienne Rich and Galway Kinnell.  I really don?t care who?s stock is currently selling high or low.  Like Hall, I want to measure myself (however dismaying it may be) against Shakespeare, Milton, Herrick, Blake, Keats, Dickinson, Whitman, Frost, Stevens, Williams, et al.  
Also against at least a few contemporaries, as I believe you do, David.  Although it will always be more difficult because you won?t have had time to absorb them as well as you?ve absorbed the ones you?ve grown up with.


At the AWP conference recently, a couple fellow poets of my acquaintance criticized other poets with some variation of ?he/she hasn?t read anything before 1980.?  That?s deadly, I think, and all-too common in the current scene, along with an unhealthy focus on who?s in or out, whose face is on the APR cover and so forth.  
But no one says what should be said (sorry for the repetition?or I would be, if anyone heeded it), which is that a given poet hasn?t read anything about poetry written beyond the knowledge of poetry in 1980.
All of us write our share of McPoems, just as all the poets of 1910 or 1790 did.  Ho hum.  Ultimately it has little to do with MFA programs, I believe, which have increased the number of poets, perhaps, but not the proportion of wheat and chaff. There is always a period style that is hard to look beyond.  And that?s the reason we still read Milton and Shakespeare?in hope of putting a toe or two occasionally outside the period style.

Not only do we write them, but some of them are good!
--Bob
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Mar  7 14:23:09 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 14:23:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets House Announcement
In-Reply-To: <1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <A122647F37134903912D29BD8EB6A6C5@BobHP>


For once Poets House has something I?d go to if I were in New York: a presentation by Haruo Shirane on Basho, 15 March at 7 P.M.

--Bob
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  7 14:54:22 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 11:54:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <1331129199.3864.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1331150062.97460.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

how 'bout?a vacation rather than vocation. 
there so-called reality, and the much needed vacation. 

--- On Wed, 3/7/12, John Jeffrey <jjeffreymail at yahoo.com> wrote:


From: John Jeffrey <jjeffreymail at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Wednesday, March 7, 2012, 9:06 AM





By the way, this made me laugh: " I am, of course, speaking of poetry as a vocation, not as a hobby."


Poetry as a vocation.? Good one.




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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  7 15:11:24 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 12:11:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
Message-ID: <1331151084.13860.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>






Bank Robbery is easier.??It's a dying profession, and a dying vocation, but I do know someone who pulled off 2 successful, unarmed bank robberies. You need a good note, and?a serious pocker face. From what I'm told, time in the Feds for nonviolent criminals can be rather soft. My buddy, because he had a clean record, only did a few years when he was caught. 

The number of poets who can afford a cheap apartment or a decent room simply?from the sales of their poetry can probably be counted on the fingers. Lyn Lifshin, perhaps ... but how many others. & Lifshin (sp?)?has over a hundred titles. 
--- On Wed, 3/7/12, Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Wednesday, March 7, 2012, 11:58 AM


Well, when you boil everything down to a measurable, monetary value, you get the kind of thinking that you cling to and (oddly) defend. 


If you wanted to make money, writing poetry was the wrong game, my friend. There are easier ways.


--Jeff Newberry


On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 10:54 AM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:





?


?

From: John Jeffrey 
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 10:34 AM
To: NewPoetry List 

Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
?





???? The mediocre poets who sell like hotcakes will reduce money available for other poets.

?I disagree.? If someone is interested in poetry and buys poetry books, then they will buy poetry books.
?
John, there is only so much money available for poetry books.? If it?s used for books A, B, C, etc., it?s not available for A, B, C, etc.? The authors of the first group win, the authors of the second group lose.? That?s what the zero sum game is.? Winners and losers.? I really can?t understand how you (and Chris) are unable to see that.
?
--Bob
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-- 
Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics embodied in language?s natural music.? It isn?t a gush, but a felt and lived syncopation.? ?Yusef Komunyakaa

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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  7 15:13:55 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 12:13:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <1331151084.13860.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1331151235.52945.YahooMailClassic@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

in other words, it's best to have a few other profitable skills aside from poetry. & if crime happens to be that skill ...

--- On Wed, 3/7/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:


From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Wednesday, March 7, 2012, 3:11 PM












Bank Robbery is easier.??It's a dying profession, and a dying vocation, but I do know someone who pulled off 2 successful, unarmed bank robberies. You need a good note, and?a serious pocker face. From what I'm told, time in the Feds for nonviolent criminals can be rather soft. My buddy, because he had a clean record, only did a few years when he was caught. 

The number of poets who can afford a cheap apartment or a decent room simply?from the sales of their poetry can probably be counted on the fingers. Lyn Lifshin, perhaps ... but how many others. & Lifshin (sp?)?has over a hundred titles. 
--- On Wed, 3/7/12, Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Wednesday, March 7, 2012, 11:58 AM


Well, when you boil everything down to a measurable, monetary value, you get the kind of thinking that you cling to and (oddly) defend. 


If you wanted to make money, writing poetry was the wrong game, my friend. There are easier ways.


--Jeff Newberry


On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 10:54 AM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:





?


?

From: John Jeffrey 
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 10:34 AM
To: NewPoetry List 

Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
?





???? The mediocre poets who sell like hotcakes will reduce money available for other poets.

?I disagree.? If someone is interested in poetry and buys poetry books, then they will buy poetry books.
?
John, there is only so much money available for poetry books.? If it?s used for books A, B, C, etc., it?s not available for A, B, C, etc.? The authors of the first group win, the authors of the second group lose.? That?s what the zero sum game is.? Winners and losers.? I really can?t understand how you (and Chris) are unable to see that.
?
--Bob
_______________________________________________
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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





-- 
Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics embodied in language?s natural music.? It isn?t a gush, but a felt and lived syncopation.? ?Yusef Komunyakaa

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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  7 15:24:33 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 12:24:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets House Announcement
In-Reply-To: <A122647F37134903912D29BD8EB6A6C5@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1331151873.3761.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Much of life (perhaps most)?includes the clause if I were in New York.
If I could afford New York, I'd be in New York. 
Therefore, much of life (perhaps most)?includes daydreaming. 
?


--- On Wed, 3/7/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets House Announcement
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Wednesday, March 7, 2012, 2:23 PM







?
For once Poets House has something I?d go to if I were in New York: a presentation by Haruo Shirane on Basho, 15 March at 7 P.M.
?
--Bob

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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  7 15:28:34 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 12:28:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets House Announcement
In-Reply-To: <1331151873.3761.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1331152114.56006.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Maxim:
?
?





Much of life (perhaps most)?includes the clause if I were in New York.
Therefore, much of life (perhaps most)?includes daydreaming. 


--- On Wed, 3/7/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:


From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poets House Announcement
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Wednesday, March 7, 2012, 3:24 PM







Much of life (perhaps most)?includes the clause if I were in New York.
If I could afford New York, I'd be in New York. 
Therefore, much of life (perhaps most)?includes daydreaming. 
?


--- On Wed, 3/7/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets House Announcement
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Wednesday, March 7, 2012, 2:23 PM







?
For once Poets House has something I?d go to if I were in New York: a presentation by Haruo Shirane on Basho, 15 March at 7 P.M.
?
--Bob

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From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  7 15:30:55 2012
From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 12:30:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <C30E8470F7CE4AF29131F5ED4977F2E3@BobHP>
References: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yah
	oo.com><054831B3E3CB4F3FAAEB80298E70C4F8@BobHP><1331128226.92677.YahooMailNeo@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><5578B547DC6548A9BC9
	633054F6E84E7@BobHP><1331134464.57951.YahooMailNeo@web120504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><4CED690948824611B641BD3AFE4818A2@BobHP>
	<1331137967.33892.YahooMailNeo@web120506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<C30E8470F7CE4AF29131F5ED4977F2E3@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1331152255.61414.YahooMailNeo@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Well, you've got me there, Bob: On a distinct date, at a specific time, in one particular place, where only a single reading is happening, and there are 10 reading slots and more than 10 poets wanting to read, then, yes, that could be seen as a zero-sum situation.? But that's a limited view.? I'm talking about the bigger picture.? Life may be a series of single instances, but it is a series.





>________________________________
> From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
>Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 2:08 PM
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
> 
>
>??
>From: John Jeffrey 
>Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 11:32 AM
>To: NewPoetry List 
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
>? So how much money is there?? And if there is only "so much money 
available for poetry," then wouldn't the number of poetry books sold each year 
be near a constant?? (Unless there's a huge cache of poetry money out there 
just waiting for the next big thing.)
>
>
>
>Books by A,B,C will sell if people like their style.? And books 
by D,E,F will sell if people like their style.? If people don't, then they 
won't sell or be read.? If people really like A,B,C and want more, then 
they may look for others that write like A,B,C.? Maybe some find L and 
others find P.? A few more like only a certain type of poem in the A.B.C 
books and they will find W, who writes those types of poems.? And W then 
leads them to X,Y,Z.
>
>
>
>Yet maybe D never sells because no one likes it or doesn't understand 
it or has never heard of it.? Maybe E sells a few copies because it's 
difficult and there's a smaller audience for difficult poetry.? Maybe F 
sells but only after the readers grow bored of A,B,C.
>
>
>Whatever the reasons are, it's not because there's a finite amount of 
money.? And without a finite, there's no zero-sum.
>
>
>
>--JohnJ
>?
>At any given moment, there?s only so much money 
available.? Or (Jeff) so many available appreciators or venues or whatever 
the sum relevant to a given poet is.? From moment to moment, whatever the 
sum consists of changes, often into a zero sum game with more participants, such 
as from poetry into all books, or all arts, or?eventually?into all human 
concerns. But the point is that on a given night, at a given venue for a poetry 
reading, it?s a zero sum game in some way.? If the poets involved are 
lucky, they will have won a zero sum game with some movie theatre by drawing 
enough people to hear them to make the occasion worthwhile to them, and not had 
a significant zero sum game among themselves.? The process can be 
complicated, but always must involve a zero sum game.? Every breath of air 
you take results in something?s losing a zero sum game. 
>?
>--Bob?
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  7 15:52:22 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 12:52:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <C4B7103DD3894CEF9E630F6BDADAF181@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1331153542.84165.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

50, 000 better than average readers of poetry reading how many good, and very good poets? Isn't this theory from the unusually?optimistic school of number crunching, Bob?

--- On Wed, 3/7/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Wednesday, March 7, 2012, 1:54 PM






?


?

From: Halvard Johnson 
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 11:12 AM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
?
50,000 mediocre poets might be 50,000 better than average 
readers of poetry.
?
Absolutely.? (Depending a bit on the workshop.)? Which is an excellent reason for workshops in poetry.? I?d say more but I can?t remember what my point was, or points were.
?
--Bob




??? 



Serving the tri-state area.
?
Hal
Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com


On Barcelona (submissions sought; email to my address above)
Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175
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Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections







On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:55 AM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:





?


?

From: John Jeffrey 
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 9:18 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
?



I don't understand the hostility toward writing programs. Yes, most of the writers/poets that graduate from these programs fall somewhere between mediocre and good. Many may be miserable; others might even be very good. So what? Who cares if 5,000--or 50,000--"certified" poets are freshly minted each year? 



?
And why shouldn't they do stupid assignments? And so what if these assignments don't produce good poems. I remember running scales on the guitar and the piano--those didn't create good songs. I remember my brother drawing train tracks and city streets to practice perspective, or painting balls and cones to practice shading--no good artwork there. Ever hear a singer practicing or watch a dancer do the same moves over and over?? No art there.
?
All art demands practice--but it's not to create decent art then. It's for the sake of understanding their art, so they might--MIGHT--create something worthwhile later. And if they don't, so what? Some people just enjoy writing poems or painting or playing music. They don't have to be great.
?
Beside, poetry is not a zero-sum game. No art is. Crowds of mediocre poets do not somehow muscle out the number of good poets. The fact that the Osmonds existed did not affect Led Zepplin. Someone painting tigers on black velvet did not hurt Jackson Pollock. And some graduate of Yourtown Community College poetry program does not diminish the work of Donald Hall.

?
Finally, all programs, writing or otherwise, exist to make a profit. That's not a knock. It's just economics.
?
--JohnJ
?
What do we do with 50,000 mediocre poets, John?? There are niches in society for fifty thousand mediocre engineers, but where are they for the same number of mediocre poets?? I am, of course, speaking of poetry as a vocation, not as a hobby. 
I wish, too, you would explain why poetry (as a serious vocation) is not, like everything I know of, a zero-sum game.? Sure, no poet can be kept from composing poems by crowds of other poets.? But the zero-sum game comes into effect for poets who want to be read.? Or heard.? Take a simple one-evening poetry reading: if five hundred poets want to read at it, and can fit into the space set aside for the reading, some have to be losers?unless you have them all read at once, in which case they?ll all be partial losers because all will be heard but none properly heard. 
--Bob 
?
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?


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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  7 16:01:35 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 13:01:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Donald Hall and the Golden Arches
In-Reply-To: <C880B3E31E5C40C1A6B6C02EB61C4ECF@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1331154095.75365.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

i'm not exactly an expect. 
Iowa simply has the rep.
?
what counts, is the poet, and whether the poet can actually teach. those few may come? ... who knows where? ... active in your sort of poetry ... perhaps Buffalo? ... an art school? 

--- On Tue, 3/6/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Donald Hall and the Golden Arches
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Tuesday, March 6, 2012, 5:17 PM






?


?

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 4:52 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Donald Hall and the Golden Arches
?






I've suspected as much, that creative writing programs exist because they're profitable. Some may be useful. Iowa, for instance. Since it attracts top talent.
?
A loud no comment on that, Stephen?but I liked Lloyd Dunn?s work (dunno what he?s been up to for the past twenty years or so), and he came out of Iowa.? I?d be curious to know what schools have produced any of the best poets during the past thirty years.? Harvard produced a lot before 1950, but very few since (none active in my sort of poetry).
?
--Bob
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Mar  7 16:13:30 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:13:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <1331153542.84165.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1331153542.84165.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0D909DDAD42F4AA395360C5B35602563@BobHP>



From: stephen russell 
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 3:52 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?

      50, 000 better than average readers of poetry reading how many good, and very good poets? Isn't this theory from the unusually optimistic school of number crunching, Bob?
     

Not many, but more than may have been the case.  I think, too, that they would be reading a fair number of established good poets, which I do think essential for engagement with equally good contemporary poets.
--Bob.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Mar  7 16:17:33 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:17:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <1331152255.61414.YahooMailNeo@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yah
	oo.com><054831B3E3CB4F3FAAEB80298E70C4F8@BobHP><1331128226.92677.YahooMailNeo@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><5578B547DC6548A9BC9
	633054F6E84E7@BobHP><1331134464.57951.YahooMailNeo@web120504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><4CED690948824611B641BD3AFE4818A2@BobHP><133113
	7967.33892.YahooMailNeo@web120506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><C30E8470F7CE4AF29131F5ED4977F2E3@BobHP>
	<1331152255.61414.YahooMailNeo@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <83199899A5E243C7AF13837F8A461282@BobHP>



From: John Jeffrey 
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 3:30 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?

Well, you've got me there, Bob: On a distinct date, at a specific time, in one particular place, where only a single reading is happening, and there are 10 reading slots and more than 10 poets wanting to read, then, yes, that could be seen as a zero-sum situation.  But that's a limited view.  I'm talking about the bigger picture.  Life may be a series of single instances, but it is a series.

For me, a series of zero-sum games.  I don?t see how you can get away from it, John: a year will have only so many slots for poets who want to read.  And it?s much worse for poets looking for book-publication slots, which it seems to me every poet should want to get.

--Bob

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From jforjames at aol.com  Wed Mar  7 17:09:57 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 17:09:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] #6 Lunch Poems
Message-ID: <8CECAC62A7CEB5C-A0C-2022@webmail-m138.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.wnyc.org/shows/lopate/blogs/lodown/2012/mar/07/object-6-frank-oharas-lunch-poems/
The Leonard Lopate Show
The Story of New York in 10 Objects


It was slightly surprising that Frank O?Hara?s 1964 collection Lunch Poems came in at number six on our list, but it turns out to be a very good way of looking at New York City. As NYU professor Lytle Shaw, author of the book Frank O?Hara: The Poetics of Coterie explains ?Lunch Poems is a condensed and highly accessible book that is smaller than a subway map.? That feature makes it easy to take the book anywhere. Shaw described it as having the potential to ?acclimatize you to the things New York has to offer.?


O'Hara is unlike many mid-century poets...



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From jforjames at aol.com  Wed Mar  7 17:11:14 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 17:11:14 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and the Public Sphere
Message-ID: <8CECAC658D4C3D4-A0C-2050@webmail-m138.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.bostonreview.net/BR37.2/david_micah_greenberg_forum.php
Poetry and the Public Sphere
Addressing ?When That Becomes This?
David Micah Greenberg


Greenberg?s allying of conservative politics (represented in the essay by former Fox News pundit Glenn Beck) and progressive poetics (represented by renowned poet-critic Charles Bernstein) struck a nerve with more than a few of our readers?including Bernstein himself. Take a look at the article here to revisit Greenberg?s discussion, including his take on Bernstein?s celebrated poem ?War Stories.? For many readers, the most controversial point Greenberg makes is his suggestion that to claim political force for experimental poetry on the grounds that its difficulty ?gives readers the capacity to reject dominant discourses? is wishful thinking at best...




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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  7 19:30:11 2012
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:30:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject)
Message-ID: <1331166611.23120.YahooMailNeo@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Dear Friends,


Over the past few days, VIDA's 2011 Count has been making big news in many major media outlets. If you haven't seen VIDA's breakdown of the rates of publication between male and female writers for 2011, please find the link here:

http://vidaweb.wpg1.info/the-count

As you see, the numbers are not great for women writers, nationally or internationally. But VIDA has a strong vision for future programming that will address what the poet Eleanor Wilner referred to as "the 
Great Silence." We at VIDA are deeply committed to making sure that in 
future more women writers' voices are valued and enjoyed by readers 
around the world. We do this for our daughters. We do this for our 
mothers. We do this for the many people--both men and women--who care 
about women's voices.

We are writing to ask you to consider making a tax-deductible donation to VIDA today.?

A donation of $25-$500 makes you a "V.I.P." (VIDA Inclined Person). 
Donations of $500 plus make you one of VIDA's "Literary Heroes." With your permission, we'll be pleased to thank you for your generosity 
on our website. Your donation will allow us to pursue the fellowships, 
publications and mentoring workshops we mean to provide for those many 
writers who need our support and encouragement.

Because?VIDA is a volunteer-run, non-profit organization, you can be certain that your entire donation will go directly to programming that grows and sustains the work of women writers at every age and stage of their literary lives.?

Here's the link to our website's donation page. There you can donate safely and quickly by using your credit card or PayPal account:

http://www.vidaweb.org/donate-now

Thank you in advance for your goodwill and support. It means much to those of us who are actively trying to move this important conversation forward. You have our gratitude.

Sincerely,

The VIDA Executive and Directors' Board

Cate Marvin
Erin Belieu
Ann Townsend
Cheryl Strayed
Danielle Pafunda
Barrie Jean Borich
Kekla Magoon

Administrative Associate
Jennifer Fitzgerald
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Wed Mar  7 19:56:17 2012
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:56:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bill Knott sings Bill Knott
Message-ID: <1331168177.21904.YahooMailNeo@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

http://youtu.be/rUEk4NK5I-k
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From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu  Wed Mar  7 22:34:01 2012
From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 21:34:01 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bill Knott sings Bill Knott
In-Reply-To: <1331168177.21904.YahooMailNeo@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <1331168177.21904.YahooMailNeo@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4F5828A9.70102@louisiana.edu>

The email address tagged to that video is "notKnott," and (though I'm an 
atheist of decades of devoted repudiation of all things "sacred") I pray 
and pray that I'm correct in saying that Bill Knott--a great wit and a 
favored poet--couldn't have had anything whatever to do with that 
upload. I see that the poem, with a note to the effect that it reminds 
him (or somebody) of a Patty Loveless song, is posted on his blog. I've 
never met Bill Knott, so don't know what he sounds like in person. Will 
someone please reassure me?

Or (Lord help us all!) could there be another Bill Knott, not (Knott!) 
the author of the fine _Laugh at the End of the World_?

Jerry

On 3/7/2012 6:56 PM, amy king wrote:
> http://youtu.be/rUEk4NK5I-k
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506
jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
337-482-5478

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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  8 08:05:51 2012
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 05:05:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bill Knott sings Bill Knott
Message-ID: <1331211951.47608.androidMobile@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

That is Bill Knott.? Why is that so incongruous for you, Jerry?? Must he not grow old, not sing ever?? He doesn't have a history for doing what is popular exactly...


Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android

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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  8 09:43:44 2012
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 06:43:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bill Knott sings Bill Knott
In-Reply-To: <1331217548.97093.YahooMailNeo@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <1331211951.47608.androidMobile@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<4F58B95B.1000906@louisiana.edu>
	<1331217548.97093.YahooMailNeo@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1331217824.18361.YahooMailNeo@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

?p.s.? I hate to tell you, Knott's no Picasso or Georgia O'Keefe, but he deigns to paint too and couple those pieces with his poetry - look at those embarrassed folks - http://www.flickr.com/photos/amyking/sets/72157624682880241/





________________________________
 From: amy king


It does clear your view up.? And while I'm a fan of folks perfecting their craft/s for the long haul (I try myself via poetry), I like to think there's room for the amateur (yes, put me in that 'democratic' camp) to put things out there too, but more importantly, there is room for people to sing - and all that singing allows - without everyone who sings having to be professionals / spend a lifetime perfecting their ability to do so.? That notion, of all people being permitted to sing, is as ancient as women washing clothes and singing, communities joining voices, etc. 

I suppose Bill could spend some time working with a voice coach, harnessing whatever skill he can, esp if he wanted to perform on stages, with regularity - but that feels a bit extreme for what he seems to want to achieve here:? to
 send a poem out into the world in his own voice after being moved by Loveless.? He certainly doesn't sound as awful as you imply, and his effort reminds me of those "unskilled" masses of Appalachian folks who sing, not to be admired for their skill, but because they feel something and use their voices in accord.? Like Knott, they are probably better at something else like building homes out of tall pines, but does that mean they can't use voice to emote?? To connect with others?? Knott's an excellent poet, so he should only stick to that?? That he should sing and share is embarrassing?? Weird.

I don't find Knott's effort offensive or embarrassing in the least because I don't presume he should be as skilled as me when I sing nor do I think singing is solely about skill.? There's room for a lot in the world (it's a pretty big one) that doesn't always meet up with what art critics say art "should" be or do.?
 (I.e.? be controlled, sound as melodious as X, etc.)? Neither do I think we should only put out into the world the products and efforts that would match up with what the "best" of that group does (i.e. you don't share your guitar riffs because you're not as skilled as Eddie Van Halen ) - we'd all never get to do anything since there can be only one or two "bests."? And ultimately, my best would not be your best, until you start to quantify, and then that's just science, which rarely accounts for the vision and openness of art.? (Many believe Belinda Bedekovic is the best "keytarist" in the world - so I should never play one publicly bc she's far faster and has smoother moves than me?? http://youtu.be/-jpr3oe96JU)? 

I suppose this also speaks to the whole argument also that there's only limited effort / material in the world and that effort better reach some gold standard when it's put out there. ? Everything is
 limited?? I find the limitations of art, and exactly what it should achieve, are often the ones decreed and put upon others by those who demand a "best" that suites their myopic vision of exactly what should exist.? Good thing Einstein didn't stick to working on only the very 'best' equations that all of the other mathematicians of his day were doing.?? Good thing Lady Day didn't tuck it in when she realized her voice had a limited range.? Etc.


Amy


I hate straight singing. I have to change a tune to my own way of doing it. That's all I know.?
--Billie Holiday
 



________________________________
 From: Jerry McGuire


I'm a great admirer of his, and of growing as old as one can. I also agree with Pound, though: "I believe in every man knowing enough of music to play 'God Bless Our Home' on the harmonium, but I do not believe in every man giving concerts and printing his sin." 

The incongruity, to be clear, is that I'm put off by a poet I
    admire, whose work shows great wit, taste, judgment, and skill,
    publicly presenting his work in a way that suggests those things
    don't matter to him. I've played the guitar for at least an hour a
    day for thirty years, but the idea of posting my all-thumbs version
    of "Deep River Blues" where a real guitarist might see it fills me
    with revulsion. I suspect that anyone who knows me well, seeing me
    clunking my way through "Ghost of a Chance" on YouTube, would think
    I'd completely lost my senses--that I was behaving wildly out of
    character. I'm perfectly aware that the internet is an amateur's
    garden of delights, and that much of its charm, for some people,
    lies in its very democratic openness to people writing or depicting
    anything they feel like revealing, no matter how embarrassing,
    silly, or (to some) depressing. I have no affection whatever for
    that dimension of the internet.

Does that clear it up for you?

Jerry

On 3/8/2012 7:05 AM, amy king wrote: 
That is Bill Knott. Why is that so incongruous for you, Jerry? Must he not grow old, not sing ever? He doesn't have a history for doing what is popular exactly...
>
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android 
>
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  8 09:39:08 2012
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 06:39:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bill Knott sings Bill Knott
In-Reply-To: <4F58B95B.1000906@louisiana.edu>
References: <1331211951.47608.androidMobile@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<4F58B95B.1000906@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <1331217548.97093.YahooMailNeo@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

It does clear your view up.? And while I'm a fan of folks perfecting their craft/s for the long haul (I try myself via poetry), I like to think there's room for the amateur (yes, put me in that 'democratic' camp) to put things out there too, but more importantly, there is room for people to sing - and all that singing allows - without everyone who sings having to be professionals / spend a lifetime perfecting their ability to do so.? That notion, of all people being permitted to sing, is as ancient as women washing clothes and singing, communities joining voices, etc. 

I suppose Bill could spend some time working with a voice coach, harnessing whatever skill he can, esp if he wanted to perform on stages, with regularity - but that feels a bit extreme for what he seems to want to achieve here:? to send a poem out into the world in his own voice after being moved by Loveless.? He certainly doesn't sound as awful as you imply, and his effort reminds me of those "unskilled" masses of Appalachian folks who sing, not to be admired for their skill, but because they feel something and use their voices in accord.? Like Knott, they are probably better at something else like building homes out of tall pines, but does that mean they can't use voice to emote?? To connect with others?? Knott's an excellent poet, so he should only stick to that?? That he should sing and share is embarrassing?? Weird.

I don't find Knott's effort offensive or embarrassing in the least because I don't presume he should be as skilled as me when I sing nor do I think singing is solely about skill.? There's room for a lot in the world (it's a pretty big one) that doesn't always meet up with what art critics say art "should" be or do.? (I.e.? be controlled, sound as melodious as X, etc.)? Neither do I think we should only put out into the world the products and efforts that would match up with what the "best" of that group does (i.e. you don't share your guitar riffs because you're not as skilled as Eddie Van Halen ) - we'd all never get to do anything since there can be only one or two "bests."? And ultimately, my best would not be your best, until you start to quantify, and then that's just science, which rarely accounts for the vision and openness of art.? (Many believe Belinda Bedekovic is the best "keytarist" in the world - so I should never play one publicly bc
 she's far faster and has smoother moves than me?? http://youtu.be/-jpr3oe96JU)? 

I suppose this also speaks to the whole argument also that there's only limited effort / material in the world and that effort better reach some gold standard when it's put out there. ? Everything is limited?? I find the limitations of art, and exactly what it should achieve, are often the ones decreed and put upon others by those who demand a "best" that suites their myopic vision of exactly what should exist.? Good thing Einstein didn't stick to working on only the very 'best' equations that all of the other mathematicians of his day were doing.?? Good thing Lady Day didn't tuck it in when she realized her voice had a limited range.? Etc.


Amy


I hate straight singing. I have to change a tune to my own way of doing it. That's all I know.?
--Billie Holiday
 



________________________________
 From: Jerry McGuire


I'm a great admirer of his, and of growing as old as one can. I also agree with Pound, though: "I believe in every man knowing enough of music to play 'God Bless Our Home' on the harmonium, but I do not believe in every man giving concerts and printing his sin." 

The incongruity, to be clear, is that I'm put off by a poet I
    admire, whose work shows great wit, taste, judgment, and skill,
    publicly presenting his work in a way that suggests those things
    don't matter to him. I've played the guitar for at least an hour a
    day for thirty years, but the idea of posting my all-thumbs version
    of "Deep River Blues" where a real guitarist might see it fills me
    with revulsion. I suspect that anyone who knows me well, seeing me
    clunking my way through "Ghost of a Chance" on YouTube, would think
    I'd completely lost my senses--that I was behaving wildly out of
    character. I'm perfectly aware that the internet is an amateur's
    garden of delights, and that much of its charm, for some people,
    lies in its very democratic openness to people writing or depicting
    anything they feel like revealing, no matter how embarrassing,
    silly, or (to some) depressing. I have no affection whatever for
    that dimension of the internet.

Does that clear it up for you?

Jerry

On 3/8/2012 7:05 AM, amy king wrote: 
That is Bill Knott. Why is that so incongruous for you, Jerry? Must he not grow old, not sing ever? He doesn't have a history for doing what is popular exactly...
>
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android 
>
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  8 09:53:09 2012
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 06:53:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bill Knott sings Bill Knott
In-Reply-To: <1331217824.18361.YahooMailNeo@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <1331211951.47608.androidMobile@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<4F58B95B.1000906@louisiana.edu>
	<1331217548.97093.YahooMailNeo@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<1331217824.18361.YahooMailNeo@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1331218389.57976.YahooMailNeo@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

p.p.s.? I also get your point that Knott is "devaluing" his poetry by coupling it with his embarrassing voice.? But as noted, your equation is premised on the subjective judgment that his singing is 'poor'.? Not everyone thinks this of his effort - and some even appreciate it for various reasons.? Which takes me back to my last email and who gets to limit whom and on what basis. 
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From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu  Thu Mar  8 10:22:43 2012
From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 09:22:43 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bill Knott sings Bill Knott
In-Reply-To: <1331218389.57976.YahooMailNeo@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <1331211951.47608.androidMobile@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>	<4F58B95B.1000906@louisiana.edu>	<1331217548.97093.YahooMailNeo@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>	<1331217824.18361.YahooMailNeo@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<1331218389.57976.YahooMailNeo@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4F58CEC3.6020804@louisiana.edu>

Thanks for the lecture on democratic process. As for Appalachian 
singers, do you know the McCormick brothers? I come from a family that 
sang on their front porch--mostly white hillbilly 
music/bluegrass/ancient folk stuff/old pop songs, etc. On my right two 
brothers who collected bluegrass 78s, on my right another who collected 
jazz, and all of them expecting me to be The One. So: cornet lessons 
(and late nights with Bix Beiderbecke/Louis Armstrong/Wild Bill Davison) 
and then guitar (and late nights with Joe Pass/Clapton/Charlie 
Christian/Segovia/Hendrix). None of it made me a real musician, despite 
my hunger. You don't think BK's singing stinks in spades? That's your 
business. As for "limiting" anyone, if I can't say I don't like 
something that I don't like, it's not the thing I don't like that's 
being limited, it's me. And where the hell does this holier-than-thou 
attitude come from, anyway? You posted something you (evidently) think 
is charming; I didn't like it and said so; I'm repaid with aspersions 
about my political ethics. Think it over.

Jerry

On 3/8/2012 8:53 AM, amy king wrote:
> p.p.s.  I also get your point that Knott is "devaluing" his poetry by 
> coupling it with his embarrassing voice.  But as noted, your equation 
> is premised on the subjective judgment that his singing is 'poor'.  
> Not everyone thinks this of his effort - and some even appreciate it 
> for various reasons.  Which takes me back to my last email and who 
> gets to limit whom and on what basis.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-- 
________________________________________________________

Jerry McGuire
English Department    Box 44691
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70504-4691
337-482-5478
Creative Writing Website:
http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html
______________________________________________________


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From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Thu Mar  8 10:42:38 2012
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 09:42:38 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
Message-ID: <CB7E2F8E.7917%GrahamD@ripon.edu>

The prose feature up now on Poetry Daily is from a book I just started
reading by Jeffrey Skinner:  The 6.5 Practices of Moderately Successful
Poets: A Self-Help Memoir.  So far, I?m finding it a very entertaining and
wise volume.  And possibly the best title of the year.

http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_skinner.php

Here?s a snippet from the chapter posted on PD, titled ?O, Research?:

When I was forming myself (and being formed) as a poet in my twenties, the
fields of science and poetry had amicably separated. It is difficult to
imagine Strand or Merwin, as learned and urbane as they were, laboring to
insinuate the latest discoveries in physics or cosmology into their
pared-down, stone and bone, deep-image poems. And it is equally hard to
imagine that Robert Creeley or Alan Dugan sat down with much more than their
own minds, which lucky for them included encyclopedic knowledge of English
and American prosody, to write the next poem. It is true that Adrienne Rich,
Lucille Clifton, and other pioneers were bringing fresh cultural, ethnic,
and gender perspectives into what was at the time a practice dominated by
white men. And there was "language" poetry, which came packed with its own
political theory and ambitions for wider cultural inclusion. But beyond
these exceptions the era of the seventies was more romantic than classical,
and the brief lyric issuing from a definable self was clearly the dominant
and ascendant mode.

Everything changes. Today young poets have the speed and reach of the
Internet at their fingertips. This, coupled with a postmodernnist worldview
that inherently distrusts the notion of a stable self, has made for an
innovative and decentered poetry that allows for a sometimes bewildering
range of voices, tones, rhetorical sets, "nonpoetic" disciplines and
obsessions, jargons, and exotic, un-"poetic" bodies of knowledge, to be
incorporated into the work. It has resulted in a restructuring of what we
mean when we say poetry. It has made for an amazing variety of poetries.
--Jeffrey Skinner


-- 

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz

Poetry Library:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================


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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  8 10:59:27 2012
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 07:59:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bill Knott sings Bill Knott
In-Reply-To: <4F58CEC3.6020804@louisiana.edu>
References: <1331211951.47608.androidMobile@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<4F58B95B.1000906@louisiana.edu>
	<1331217548.97093.YahooMailNeo@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<1331217824.18361.YahooMailNeo@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<1331218389.57976.YahooMailNeo@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<4F58CEC3.6020804@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <1331222367.6068.YahooMailNeo@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Jerry,


I'm glad you're well-versed in Bluegrass, et al.? I too am educated a bit in that realm, though I'm only from Stone Mountain, Ga.? I have friends from that region and have done a little listening myself.? It's funny, because a long time ago, that music wasn't considered "real" and was also likely dubbed "embarrassing," esp as put to those who hiked up to record that so-called music.? 

As for who gets to be a "real musician" (great term! who bestows that title?), I can only repeat that the notion is subjective.? It's debated by some, even today, that Holliday wasn't such.? Her voice, how do you put it, could also be said to "stink in spades."? Those Appalachians certainly weren't seen "real musicians" for a long, long time.? 

As for being "holier than thou", I responded to your own-holier-thou attitude as put to Bill Knott in that he should be embarrassed for his effort, and now, that his voice "stinks in spades."? How dare I respond?? I should just let only you have your opinion and not respond, for my own opinion is not simple concurrence. 

I'll call it out again for old time's sake:? you said that Knott is devaluing his poetry by coupling it with his "embarrassing" voice and one should only sing if one is talented.? Who makes that call? ? Again, it boils down to subjectivity and tallying of identifiable factors (i.e. speed, type of music, pitch, etc.).?? Art is never the sum of such parts.?? And as Emerson put it, "A great man is always willing to be little." --even if that means he sings in the world and gets name-called for it.

Moreover, I'm responding to your idea that he should shut up and stick to poetry by noting that one obvious talent shouldn't negate other attempts to be artistic.? One doesn't exclude the other, and such thinking relies on hierarchical thinking.? One should not only do what one is best at.? Those Appalachian singers who were known to the world as poor unskilled singers would have had to stick to house building based on that premise.? I say, let them sing and work while they're at it - why must one negate the other?? That is an opinion.? If that makes me "holier than thou," I'd rather be such than the censor you've set yourself up to be.

Amy? 


p.s.? As for telling me to think it over, you should do the same.? "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."??
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
  





________________________________
 From: Jerry McGuire


 
Thanks for the lecture on democratic process. As for Appalachian singers, do you know the McCormick brothers? I come from a family that sang on their front porch--mostly white hillbilly music/bluegrass/ancient folk stuff/old pop songs, etc. On my right two brothers who collected bluegrass 78s, on my right another who collected jazz, and all of them expecting me to be The One. So: cornet lessons (and late nights with Bix Beiderbecke/Louis Armstrong/Wild Bill Davison) and then guitar (and late nights with Joe Pass/Clapton/Charlie Christian/Segovia/Hendrix). None of it made me a real musician, despite my hunger. You don't think BK's singing stinks in spades? That's your business. As for "limiting" anyone, if I can't say I don't like something that I don't like, it's not the thing I don't like that's being limited, it's me. And where the hell does this holier-than-thou attitude come from, anyway? You posted something you (evidently) think is charming; I
 didn't like it and said so; I'm repaid with aspersions about my political ethics. Think it over.

Jerry

On 3/8/2012 8:53 AM, amy king wrote: 
p.p.s.? I also get your point that Knott is "devaluing" his poetry by coupling it with his embarrassing voice.? But as noted, your equation is premised on the subjective judgment that his singing is 'poor'.? Not everyone thinks this of his effort - and some even appreciate it for various reasons.? Which takes me back to my last email and who gets to limit whom and on what basis. 
>
>?
>
>
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 

-- 
________________________________________________________ Jerry McGuire
English Department    Box 44691
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70504-4691
337-482-5478
Creative Writing Website: http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html ______________________________________________________ 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu  Thu Mar  8 11:42:28 2012
From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 10:42:28 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bill Knott sings Bill Knott
In-Reply-To: <1331222367.6068.YahooMailNeo@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <1331211951.47608.androidMobile@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>	<4F58B95B.1000906@louisiana.edu>	<1331217548.97093.YahooMailNeo@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>	<1331217824.18361.YahooMailNeo@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>	<1331218389.57976.YahooMailNeo@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>	<4F58CEC3.6020804@louisiana.edu>
	<1331222367.6068.YahooMailNeo@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4F58E174.9000205@louisiana.edu>

It's pretty amusing to hear that I've set myself up to be a censor, or 
that I'd press my dismay over an expression (artistic or otherwise) that 
I think is awful to the point that I'd invest any energy in denying its 
originator the privilege of that expression. It seems to me you can't 
have been reading any of my posts on this list. I don't feel that just 
because some idiot thinks critical race theory equates to racism, he 
should shut up. I don't mind saying, though, that I would personally be 
happier if he would.

Cheers,

Jerry

On 3/8/2012 9:59 AM, amy king wrote:
> Jerry,
>
> I'm glad you're well-versed in Bluegrass, et al.  I too am educated a 
> bit in that realm, though I'm only from Stone Mountain, Ga.  I have 
> friends from that region and have done a little listening myself.  
> It's funny, because a long time ago, that music wasn't considered 
> "real" and was also likely dubbed "embarrassing," esp as put to those 
> who hiked up to record that so-called music.
>
> As for who gets to be a "real musician" (great term! who bestows that 
> title?), I can only repeat that the notion is subjective.  It's 
> debated by some, even today, that Holliday wasn't such.  Her voice, 
> how do you put it, could also be said to "stink in spades."  Those 
> Appalachians certainly weren't seen "real musicians" for a long, long 
> time.
>
> As for being "holier than thou", I responded to your own-holier-thou 
> attitude as put to Bill Knott in that he should be embarrassed for his 
> effort, and now, that his voice "stinks in spades."  How dare I 
> respond?  I should just let only you have your opinion and not 
> respond, for my own opinion is not simple concurrence.
>
> I'll call it out again for old time's sake:  you said that Knott is 
> devaluing his poetry by coupling it with his "embarrassing" voice and 
> one should only sing if one is talented.  Who makes that call?   
> Again, it boils down to subjectivity and tallying of identifiable 
> factors (i.e. speed, type of music, pitch, etc.).   Art is never the 
> sum of such parts.   And as Emerson put it, "A great man is always 
> willing to be little." --even if that means he sings in the world and 
> gets name-called for it.
>
> Moreover, I'm responding to your idea that he should shut up and stick 
> to poetry by noting that one obvious talent shouldn't negate other 
> attempts to be artistic.  One doesn't exclude the other, and such 
> thinking relies on hierarchical thinking.  One should not only do what 
> one is best at.  Those Appalachian singers who were known to the world 
> as poor unskilled singers would have had to stick to house building 
> based on that premise.  I say, let them sing and work while they're at 
> it - why must one negate the other?  That is an opinion.  If that 
> makes me "holier than thou," I'd rather be such than the censor you've 
> set yourself up to be.
>
> Amy
>
> p.s.  As for telling me to think it over, you should do the same.  "A 
> foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little 
> statesmen and philosophers and divines."   --Ralph Waldo Emerson
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Jerry McGuire
>
> Thanks for the lecture on democratic process. As for Appalachian 
> singers, do you know the McCormick brothers? I come from a family that 
> sang on their front porch--mostly white hillbilly 
> music/bluegrass/ancient folk stuff/old pop songs, etc. On my right two 
> brothers who collected bluegrass 78s, on my right another who 
> collected jazz, and all of them expecting me to be The One. So: cornet 
> lessons (and late nights with Bix Beiderbecke/Louis Armstrong/Wild 
> Bill Davison) and then guitar (and late nights with Joe 
> Pass/Clapton/Charlie Christian/Segovia/Hendrix). None of it made me a 
> real musician, despite my hunger. You don't think BK's singing stinks 
> in spades? That's your business. As for "limiting" anyone, if I can't 
> say I don't like something that I don't like, it's not the thing I 
> don't like that's being limited, it's me. And where the hell does this 
> holier-than-thou attitude come from, anyway? You posted something you 
> (evidently) think is charming; I didn't like it and said so; I'm 
> repaid with aspersions about my political ethics. Think it over.
>
> Jerry
>
> On 3/8/2012 8:53 AM, amy king wrote:
>> p.p.s.  I also get your point that Knott is "devaluing" his poetry by 
>> coupling it with his embarrassing voice.  But as noted, your equation 
>> is premised on the subjective judgment that his singing is 'poor'.  
>> Not everyone thinks this of his effort - and some even appreciate it 
>> for various reasons.  Which takes me back to my last email and who 
>> gets to limit whom and on what basis.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu  <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> -- 
> ________________________________________________________
>
> Jerry McGuire
> English Department    Box 44691
> University of Louisiana at Lafayette
> Lafayette LA 70504-4691
> 337-482-5478
> Creative Writing Website:
> http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html
> ______________________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-- 
________________________________________________________

Jerry McGuire
English Department    Box 44691
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70504-4691
337-482-5478
Creative Writing Website:
http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html
______________________________________________________


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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Thu Mar  8 12:38:27 2012
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 09:38:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bill Knott sings Bill Knott
In-Reply-To: <4F58E174.9000205@louisiana.edu>
References: <1331211951.47608.androidMobile@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<4F58B95B.1000906@louisiana.edu>
	<1331217548.97093.YahooMailNeo@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<1331217824.18361.YahooMailNeo@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<1331218389.57976.YahooMailNeo@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<4F58CEC3.6020804@louisiana.edu>
	<1331222367.6068.YahooMailNeo@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<4F58E174.9000205@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <1331228307.24704.YahooMailNeo@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Jerry,
?
?I guess I mistook your call for Knott to stick to poetry and stop 'embarrassing' himself by singing, along with your initial disbelief that he put such?effort out there, your characterizations of "embarrassing," "silly," "depressing," his voice "stinks in spades," your accusation of me being "holier than thou" when I deigned to have an opinion in response to your?own that wasn't one of simple concurrence, being?commanded to "Think it over,"?etc.?... I guess I mistook all of that as a method for stultifying conversation rather than one of open engagement.? I'd hate to see you actively censoring anyone.? 

Amy


From: Jerry McGuire <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at charlemagne.cddc.vt.edu> 
Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2012 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Bill Knott sings Bill Knott


It's pretty amusing to hear that I've set myself up to be a censor, or that I'd press my dismay over an expression (artistic or otherwise) that I think is awful to the point that I'd invest any energy in denying its originator the privilege of that expression. It seems to me you can't have been reading any of my posts on this list. I don't feel that just because some idiot thinks critical race theory equates to racism, he should shut up. I don't mind saying, though, that I would personally be happier if he would.

Cheers,

Jerry 

On 3/8/2012 9:59 AM, amy king wrote: 
Jerry,
>
>
>I'm glad you're well-versed in Bluegrass, et al.? I too am educated a bit in that realm, though I'm only from Stone Mountain, Ga.? I have friends from that region and have done a little listening myself.? It's funny, because a long time ago, that music wasn't considered "real" and was also likely dubbed "embarrassing," esp as put to those who hiked up to record that so-called music.? 
>
>As for who gets to be a "real musician" (great term! who bestows that title?), I can only repeat that the notion is subjective.? It's debated by some, even today, that Holliday wasn't such.? Her voice, how do you put it, could also be said to "stink in spades."? Those Appalachians certainly weren't seen "real musicians" for a long, long time.? 
>
>As for being "holier than thou", I responded to your own-holier-thou attitude as put to Bill Knott in that he should be embarrassed for his effort, and now, that his voice "stinks in spades."? How dare I respond?? I should just let only you have your opinion and not respond, for my own opinion is not simple concurrence. 
>
>I'll call it out again for old time's sake:? you said that Knott is devaluing his poetry by coupling it with his "embarrassing" voice and one should only sing if one is talented.? Who makes that call? ? Again, it boils down to subjectivity and tallying of identifiable factors (i.e. speed, type of music, pitch, etc.).?? Art is never the sum of such parts.?? And as Emerson put it, "A great man is always willing to be little." --even if that means he sings in the world and gets name-called for it.
>
>Moreover, I'm responding to your idea that he should shut up and stick to poetry by noting that one obvious talent shouldn't negate other attempts to be artistic.? One doesn't exclude the other, and such thinking relies on hierarchical thinking.? One should not only do what one is best at.? Those Appalachian singers who were known to the world as poor unskilled singers would have had to stick to house building based on that premise.? I say, let them sing and work while they're at it - why must one negate the other?? That is an opinion.? If that makes me "holier than thou," I'd rather be such than the censor you've set yourself up to be.
>
>Amy? 
>
>
>p.s.? As for telling me to think it over, you should do the same.? "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."?? --Ralph Waldo Emerson
>
>
>
>
>
>
>From: Jerry McGuire
>
>
>Thanks for the lecture on democratic process. As for Appalachian singers, do you know the McCormick brothers? I come from a family that sang on their front porch--mostly white hillbilly music/bluegrass/ancient folk stuff/old pop songs, etc. On my right two brothers who collected bluegrass 78s, on my right another who collected jazz, and all of them expecting me to be The One. So: cornet lessons (and late nights with Bix Beiderbecke/Louis Armstrong/Wild Bill Davison) and then guitar (and late nights with Joe Pass/Clapton/Charlie Christian/Segovia/Hendrix). None of it made me a real musician, despite my hunger. You don't think BK's singing stinks in spades? That's your business. As for "limiting" anyone, if I can't say I don't like something that I don't like, it's not the thing I don't like that's being limited, it's me. And where the hell does this holier-than-thou attitude come from, anyway? You posted something you (evidently) think is charming; I
 didn't like it and said so; I'm repaid with aspersions about my political ethics. Think it over.
>
>Jerry
>
>On 3/8/2012 8:53 AM, amy king wrote: 
>p.p.s.? I also get your point that Knott is "devaluing" his poetry by coupling it with his embarrassing voice.? But as noted, your equation is premised on the subjective judgment that his singing is 'poor'.? Not everyone thinks this of his effort - and some even appreciate it for various reasons.? Which takes me back to my last email and who gets to limit whom and on what basis. 
>>
>>?
>>
>>
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 
>
>-- 
________________________________________________________

Jerry McGuire
English Department    Box 44691
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70504-4691
337-482-5478
Creative Writing Website: http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html ______________________________________________________ 
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 

-- 
________________________________________________________

Jerry McGuire
English Department    Box 44691
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70504-4691
337-482-5478
Creative Writing Website: http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html ______________________________________________________ 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Mar  8 12:39:32 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 12:39:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
In-Reply-To: <CB7E2F8E.7917%GrahamD@ripon.edu>
References: <CB7E2F8E.7917%GrahamD@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <D2688B8693D14340A1E325C960440D1A@BobHP>

Skinner on research in poetry

From: David Graham 
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 10:42 AM
To: NewPoetry 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry

The prose feature up now on Poetry Daily is from a book I just started reading by Jeffrey Skinner:  The 6.5 Practices of Moderately Successful Poets: A Self-Help Memoir.  So far, I?m finding it a very entertaining and wise volume.  And possibly the best title of the year.

http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_skinner.php

Here?s a snippet from the chapter posted on PD, titled ?O, Research?:

When I was forming myself (and being formed) as a poet in my twenties, the fields of science and poetry had amicably separated. It is difficult to imagine Strand or Merwin, as learned and urbane as they were, laboring to insinuate the latest discoveries in physics or cosmology into their pared-down, stone and bone, deep-image poems. And it is equally hard to imagine that Robert Creeley or Alan Dugan sat down with much more than their own minds, which lucky for them included encyclopedic knowledge of English and American prosody, to write the next poem. It is true that Adrienne Rich, Lucille Clifton, and other pioneers were bringing fresh cultural, ethnic, and gender perspectives into what was at the time a practice dominated by white men. And there was "language" poetry, which came packed with its own political theory and ambitions for wider cultural inclusion. But beyond these exceptions the era of the seventies was more romantic than classical, and the brief lyric issuing from a definable self was clearly the dominant and ascendant mode.

Everything changes. Today young poets have the speed and reach of the Internet at their fingertips. This, coupled with a postmodernnist worldview that inherently distrusts the notion of a stable self, has made for an innovative and decentered poetry that allows for a sometimes bewildering range of voices, tones, rhetorical sets, "nonpoetic" disciplines and obsessions, jargons, and exotic, un-"poetic" bodies of knowledge, to be incorporated into the work. It has resulted in a restructuring of what we mean when we say poetry. It has made for an amazing variety of poetries.
--Jeffrey Skinner


Weird to me, David, that you would be interested in someone who?d write the second paragraph above.  I don?t believe in postmodernism, myself, nor do I think distrust of ?the notion of a stable self? has much to do with what?s going on in poetry, although that distrust may be one reason so much of it is crap.  My impression is that most of the ?amazing variety of poetries? is due to a reduction of the self-to-objective-reality ratio among poets?or, put more simply, a preference for composing poetry about things and/or ideas (and images thereof) rather than about people.
--Bob
--Bob
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Mar  8 13:19:47 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 13:19:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
In-Reply-To: <D2688B8693D14340A1E325C960440D1A@BobHP>
References: <CB7E2F8E.7917%GrahamD@ripon.edu>
	<D2688B8693D14340A1E325C960440D1A@BobHP>
Message-ID: <EE9A9DF2C842478B909ED00576C25F69@BobHP>

Skinner on research in poetryI should add that the Skinner book looks like it might be a good, worthwhile read, in spite of the use of terminology I don?t favor.

--Bob

From: bob grumman 
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 12:39 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry



From: David Graham 
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 10:42 AM
To: NewPoetry 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry

The prose feature up now on Poetry Daily is from a book I just started reading by Jeffrey Skinner:  The 6.5 Practices of Moderately Successful Poets: A Self-Help Memoir.  So far, I?m finding it a very entertaining and wise volume.  And possibly the best title of the year.

http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_skinner.php

Here?s a snippet from the chapter posted on PD, titled ?O, Research?:

When I was forming myself (and being formed) as a poet in my twenties, the fields of science and poetry had amicably separated. It is difficult to imagine Strand or Merwin, as learned and urbane as they were, laboring to insinuate the latest discoveries in physics or cosmology into their pared-down, stone and bone, deep-image poems. And it is equally hard to imagine that Robert Creeley or Alan Dugan sat down with much more than their own minds, which lucky for them included encyclopedic knowledge of English and American prosody, to write the next poem. It is true that Adrienne Rich, Lucille Clifton, and other pioneers were bringing fresh cultural, ethnic, and gender perspectives into what was at the time a practice dominated by white men. And there was "language" poetry, which came packed with its own political theory and ambitions for wider cultural inclusion. But beyond these exceptions the era of the seventies was more romantic than classical, and the brief lyric issuing from a definable self was clearly the dominant and ascendant mode.

Everything changes. Today young poets have the speed and reach of the Internet at their fingertips. This, coupled with a postmodernnist worldview that inherently distrusts the notion of a stable self, has made for an innovative and decentered poetry that allows for a sometimes bewildering range of voices, tones, rhetorical sets, "nonpoetic" disciplines and obsessions, jargons, and exotic, un-"poetic" bodies of knowledge, to be incorporated into the work. It has resulted in a restructuring of what we mean when we say poetry. It has made for an amazing variety of poetries.
--Jeffrey Skinner


Weird to me, David, that you would be interested in someone who?d write the second paragraph above.  I don?t believe in postmodernism, myself, nor do I think distrust of ?the notion of a stable self? has much to do with what?s going on in poetry, although that distrust may be one reason so much of it is crap.  My impression is that most of the ?amazing variety of poetries? is due to a reduction of the self-to-objective-reality ratio among poets?or, put more simply, a preference for composing poetry about things and/or ideas (and images thereof) rather than about people.
--Bob
--Bob


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From seamascain at gmail.com  Thu Mar  8 13:20:11 2012
From: seamascain at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9amas_Cain?=)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 12:20:11 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] St. Patrick's Day event
In-Reply-To: <CACQeQQx289R9NOwEm3wBcpRQ5zEO0qPX1PnBR-jFk3X5i6qbqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACQeQQx289R9NOwEm3wBcpRQ5zEO0qPX1PnBR-jFk3X5i6qbqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACQeQQxJ1uitYm6YXe2n6+-Ska5CrbexW7HJdgLo3zCF3E8-qA@mail.gmail.com>

_____________________________________


A CELEBRATION OF WORD AND MUSIC, for

St. Patrick's Day,
Saturday, March 17th, 2012
10:30 a.m.

CLOQUET PUBLIC LIBRARY,
320 Fourteenth Street,
Cloquet, Minnesota,
U.S.A., 55720 - 2051

St. Patrick's Day will be celebrated with a literary reading and
traditional Irish music at the Cloquet Public Library at 10:30 a.m.,
Saturday, March 17th. ?American-Irish author and Cloquet native S?amas
Cain will read from his recently published poetry-novel ?The Dangerous
Islands.? ?The reading will be accompanied by music performed on the
Celtic harp and penny whistle by Mary Hagen and Linda Crumpton.

All proceeds from the sale of ?The Dangerous Islands? at this event
will go to support the Programming Department at the Cloquet Public
Library.

S?amas Cain is a poet, playwright, conceptual artist, performance
artist, and theater director, who has written about Ireland for many
years. ?Born in Cloquet, he has been active in Irish artistic and
political circles since his first involvements in Northern Ireland in
the 1960s. ?The Northern Ireland conflict, known as ?The Troubles,?
was an early focus of his essays, pamphlets, and manifestos. ?In an
essay written in Northern Ireland in 1968, Cain expressed his
understanding of the struggle of the Irish Civil Rights Movement as a
hope to create a non-violent and humanist movement against the tyranny
of the British Establishment while deploring the ?mindless violence?
of the paramilitaries.

Ireland's struggles form the backdrop of his most recent work, ?The
Dangerous Islands.? ??The Dangerous Islands? is an unconventional
novel that combines aspects of various genres, including poetry and
play script, in conveying the experience of a young Irish-American man
from 1965 to 1998.

Francis M. Carroll, author of ?The Fires of Autumn : The Cloquet-Moose
Lake Disaster of 1918? and ?Crossroads in Time : A History of Carlton
County, Minnesota,? has written that Cain's novel ?invites the reader
into a kaleidoscope of colors, sounds and images. ?The experience is
both intensely personal and cosmic. ?S?amas Cain's work comes out of
the world of ancient Celtic sagas, out of the s?ances of William
Butler Yeats, out of T.S. Eliot's desert wastelands, and especially
out of James Joyce's play with language. ?He takes the reader to
mysterious islands, as well as dangerous islands.?

Mr. Cain has been the recipient of grants from the IMRAM Festival in
Ireland, the Minnesota State Arts Board, the McKnight Foundation, and
the Arrowhead Regional Arts Council, among other organizations. ?He
describes his novel as ?a non-Classic coming-of-age tale. ?It is a
story of self-education and self-development, with convictions and
disillusionment. ?But it resists all pigeonholing, for it is also a
novel of ideas ranging across literature, philosophy and politics.?

?The Dangerous Islands? has been published in Ireland by The Red
Jasper Press, an independent publishing house under the curatorship of
Dr. Kit Fryatt, lecturer in English at the Mater Dei Institute of
Education, a part of Dublin City University. ?Dr. Fryatt organizes
activities of the Irish Centre for Poetry Studies, in which Mr. Cain
has contributed. ?The book's preface has been written by
American-Irish poet Sheila E. Murphy.

Mary Hagen has been a local harper for many years. ?Linda Crumpton is
a member of a Celtic music group that performs regularly at Carmody's
Irish Pub in Duluth, Minnesota. ?Both musicians are Cloquet residents.

Copies of ?The Dangerous Islands? are available through Berkeley Books
of Paris, France; Housmans Bookshop in London, England; Boekie Woekie
of Amsterdam, The Netherlands; The Loft Bookshop and Gregory Carr
Books in Dublin; Magers & Quinn in Minneapolis, Minnesota; and the UMD
Bookstores in Duluth. ?For more information about availability, scroll
down the page at ...

http://www.freewebs.com/seamascain

_____________________________________


For additional information, contact

Mark King ...

E-Mail : markking at arrowhead.lib.mn.us

Phone : 218.879.1531

CLOQUET PUBLIC LIBRARY,
320 Fourteenth Street,
Cloquet, Minnesota,
U.S.A., 55720 - 2051

_____________________________________


From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu  Thu Mar  8 13:27:01 2012
From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 12:27:01 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
In-Reply-To: <D2688B8693D14340A1E325C960440D1A@BobHP>
References: <CB7E2F8E.7917%GrahamD@ripon.edu>
	<D2688B8693D14340A1E325C960440D1A@BobHP>
Message-ID: <4F58F9F5.1070109@louisiana.edu>

Thanks for this note, David. I can definitely use a touch of light(ness) 
on the poetic horizon.

Jerry

On 3/8/2012 11:39 AM, bob grumman wrote:
> /The 6.5 Practices of Moderately Successful Poets: A Self-Help Memoir/

-- 
________________________________________________________

Jerry McGuire
English Department    Box 44691
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70504-4691
337-482-5478
Creative Writing Website:
http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html
______________________________________________________


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From halvard at gmail.com  Thu Mar  8 13:53:01 2012
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 12:53:01 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
In-Reply-To: <D2688B8693D14340A1E325C960440D1A@BobHP>
References: <CB7E2F8E.7917%GrahamD@ripon.edu>
	<D2688B8693D14340A1E325C960440D1A@BobHP>
Message-ID: <CANrCfqFM=LhRcrS43B_yQXe7TQ_BM-WUO_JMX+SDUKioMtxcRA@mail.gmail.com>

Writing about something--what an idea! Not much
use when it comes to writing poetry though, except
to hang one's hat on.


Serving the tri-state area.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com

On Barcelona <http://onbarcelona.blogspot.com/> (submissions sought; email
to my address above)
Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
Remains To Be Seen <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>*, Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. II) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>,** Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. III) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Sonnets
from the Basque & Other Poems <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>
*, *Mainly Black <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Obras
P?blicas <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **The Perfection
of Mozart's Third Eye and Other
Sonnets<http://www.scribd.com/doc/27039868/Halvard-Johnson-THE-PERFECTION-OF-MOZART-S-THIRD-EYE-Other-Sonnets>
; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of
Clones<http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Entrance-Clones-Halvard-Johnson/dp/0965404390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283182804&sr=8-1>
; **Tango Bouquet <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **Theory
of Harmony<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall04/theory1.pdf>
; **Rapsodie espagnole<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/rapsodi.pdf>
; **Guide to the Tokyo
Subway<http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Tokyo-Subway-Other-Poems/dp/0971487316/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283183153&sr=1-3>
; **The Sonnet Project<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/hsonnet.pdf>
; **G(e)nome <http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall03/genome.pdf>; **Winter
Journey <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.winter.html>;
**Eclipse<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.eclipse.html>
; **The Dance of the Red Swan <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.dance.html>
; **Transparencies & Projections<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.transp.html>
*




On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 11:39 AM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:

>
>
>  *From:* David Graham <GrahamD at ripon.edu>
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 08, 2012 10:42 AM
> *To:* NewPoetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
>
>  The prose feature up now on Poetry Daily is from a book I just started
> reading by Jeffrey Skinner:  *The 6.5 Practices of Moderately Successful
> Poets: A Self-Help Memoir.  *So far, I?m finding it a very entertaining
> and wise volume.  And possibly the best title of the year.
>
> http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_skinner.php
>
> Here?s a snippet from the chapter posted on PD, titled ?O, Research?:
>
> When I was forming myself (and being formed) as a poet in my twenties, the
> fields of science and poetry had amicably separated. It is difficult to
> imagine Strand or Merwin, as learned and urbane as they were, laboring to
> insinuate the latest discoveries in physics or cosmology into their
> pared-down, stone and bone, deep-image poems. And it is equally hard to
> imagine that Robert Creeley or Alan Dugan sat down with much more than
> their own minds, which lucky for them included encyclopedic knowledge of
> English and American prosody, to write the next poem. It is true that
> Adrienne Rich, Lucille Clifton, and other pioneers were bringing fresh
> cultural, ethnic, and gender perspectives into what was at the time a
> practice dominated by white men. And there was "language" poetry, which
> came packed with its own political theory and ambitions for wider cultural
> inclusion. But beyond these exceptions the era of the seventies was more
> romantic than classical, and the brief lyric issuing from a definable self
> was clearly the dominant and ascendant mode.
>
> Everything changes. Today young poets have the speed and reach of the
> Internet at their fingertips. This, coupled with a postmodernnist worldview
> that inherently distrusts the notion of a stable self, has made for an
> innovative and decentered poetry that allows for a sometimes bewildering
> range of voices, tones, rhetorical sets, "nonpoetic" disciplines and
> obsessions, jargons, and exotic, un-"poetic" bodies of knowledge, to be
> incorporated into the work. It has resulted in a restructuring of what we
> mean when we say poetry. It has made for an amazing variety of poetries.
> --Jeffrey Skinner
>
>  Weird to me, David, that you would be interested in someone who?d write
> the second paragraph above.  I don?t believe in postmodernism, myself, nor
> do I think distrust of ?the notion of a stable self? has much to do with
> what?s going on in poetry, although that distrust may be one reason so much
> of it is crap.  My impression is that most of the ?amazing variety of
> poetries? is due to a reduction of the self-to-objective-reality ratio
> among poets?or, put more simply, a preference for composing poetry about
> things and/or ideas (and images thereof) rather than about people.
>
>  --Bob
>
>  --Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From carol.dorf at gmail.com  Fri Mar  9 09:42:14 2012
From: carol.dorf at gmail.com (carol dorf)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 06:42:14 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
In-Reply-To: <CANrCfqFM=LhRcrS43B_yQXe7TQ_BM-WUO_JMX+SDUKioMtxcRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CB7E2F8E.7917%GrahamD@ripon.edu>
	<D2688B8693D14340A1E325C960440D1A@BobHP>
	<CANrCfqFM=LhRcrS43B_yQXe7TQ_BM-WUO_JMX+SDUKioMtxcRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABVBwJAL9beouiV4PhfJu=pcUOjFs887Mu3nYq5Lc0v0NPyqLA@mail.gmail.com>

Rich actually wrote a number of poems during that era that included
science/lives of scientists; as did Rukeyser who was active through the
60s/early 70s (who can forget "The Conjugation of the Paramecium.")  I'd
have to read more carefully to see if there is a generalization about
gender and poets of that era here.

-- 
Carol Dorf
talkingwriting.com
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From grahamd at ripon.edu  Fri Mar  9 12:32:13 2012
From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham-RC)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 11:32:13 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Laura Kasischke wins NBCC Award
Message-ID: <353B9BE3-C130-4D9F-8E89-0ECF5A367D4C@ripon.edu>

http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2012/03/laura-kasischke-wins-nbcc-award/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=social_media&utm_campaign=general_marketing&utm_content=Google+Reader%3Futm_source%3Dfacebook



========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz

Poetry Library:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================



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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  9 15:45:49 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 12:45:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
In-Reply-To: <EE9A9DF2C842478B909ED00576C25F69@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1331325949.68750.YahooMailClassic@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

>From poetry/language/thought ... Heidegger --

When Holderlin speaks of dwelling, he has before his eyes the

basic character of human existence. He sees the "poetic," moreover,

by way of its relation to this dwelling, thus understood

essentially.



This does not mean, though, that the poetic is merely an

ornament and bonus added to dwelling. Nor does the poetic

character of dwelling mean merely that the poetic turns up in

some way or other in all dwelling. Rather, the phrase "poetically i

man dwells" says: poetry first causes dwelling to be dwelling.

Poetry is what really lets us dwell. But through what do we

attain to a dwelling place? Through building. Poetic creation,

which lets us dwell, is a kind of building.


Thus we confront a double demand: for one thing, we are

to think of what is called man's existence by way of the nature

of dwelling; for another, we are to think of the nature of poetry

as a letting-dwell, as a-perhaps even the-distinctive kind of

building. If we search out the nature of poetry according to this

viewpoint, then we arrive at the nature of dwelling.



But where do we humans get our information about the

nature of dwelling and poetry? Where does man generally get

the claim to arrive at the nature of something? Man can make

such a claim only where he receives it. He receives it from the

telling of language. Of course, only when and only as long as he

respects language's own nature. Meanwhile, there rages round

the earth an unbridled yet clever talking, writing, and broadcasting

of spoken words. Man acts as though he were the shaper and

master of language, while in fact language remains the master

of man.





--- On Thu, 3/8/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Thursday, March 8, 2012, 1:19 PM

Skinner on research in poetry



I should add that the Skinner book looks like it might be a good, 
worthwhile read, in spite of the use of terminology I don?t favor.
?
--Bob


?

From: bob grumman 
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 12:39 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in 
poetry
?



?


?

From: David Graham 
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 10:42 AM
To: NewPoetry 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in 
poetry
?

The prose feature up 
now on Poetry Daily is from a book I just started reading by Jeffrey 
Skinner:? The 6.5 Practices of Moderately Successful Poets: A Self-Help 
Memoir.? So far, I?m finding it a very entertaining and wise 
volume.? And possibly the best title of the year.

http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_skinner.php

Here?s 
a snippet from the chapter posted on PD, titled ?O, Research?:

When I was 
forming myself (and being formed) as a poet in my twenties, the fields of 
science and poetry had amicably separated. It is difficult to imagine Strand or 
Merwin, as learned and urbane as they were, laboring to insinuate the latest 
discoveries in physics or cosmology into their pared-down, stone and bone, 
deep-image poems. And it is equally hard to imagine that Robert Creeley or Alan 
Dugan sat down with much more than their own minds, which lucky for them 
included encyclopedic knowledge of English and American prosody, to write the 
next poem. It is true that Adrienne Rich, Lucille Clifton, and other pioneers 
were bringing fresh cultural, ethnic, and gender perspectives into what was at 
the time a practice dominated by white men. And there was "language" poetry, 
which came packed with its own political theory and ambitions for wider cultural 
inclusion. But beyond these exceptions the era of the seventies was more 
romantic than classical, and the brief lyric issuing from a definable self was 
clearly the dominant and ascendant mode.

Everything changes. Today young 
poets have the speed and reach of the Internet at their fingertips. This, 
coupled with a postmodernnist worldview that inherently distrusts the notion of 
a stable self, has made for an innovative and decentered poetry that allows for 
a sometimes bewildering range of voices, tones, rhetorical sets, "nonpoetic" 
disciplines and obsessions, jargons, and exotic, un-"poetic" bodies of 
knowledge, to be incorporated into the work. It has resulted in a restructuring 
of what we mean when we say poetry. It has made for an amazing variety of 
poetries.
--Jeffrey Skinner



Weird to 
me, David, that you would be interested in someone who?d write the second 
paragraph above.? I don?t believe in postmodernism, myself, nor do I think 
distrust of ?the notion of a stable self? has much to do with what?s going on in 
poetry, although that distrust may be one reason so much of it is crap.? My 
impression is that most of the ?amazing variety of poetries? is due to a 
reduction of the self-to-objective-reality ratio among poets?or, put more 
simply, a preference for composing poetry about things and/or ideas (and images 
thereof) rather than about people.

?

--Bob

?

--Bob


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing 
list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Fri Mar  9 15:50:07 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 12:50:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
In-Reply-To: <1331325949.68750.YahooMailClassic@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1331326207.33944.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

now if I can find the actual poem by Holderlin ...

--- On Fri, 3/9/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Friday, March 9, 2012, 3:45 PM

>From poetry/language/thought ... Heidegger --

When Holderlin speaks of dwelling, he has before his eyes the

basic character of human existence. He sees the "poetic," moreover,

by way of its relation to this dwelling, thus understood

essentially.



This does not mean, though, that the poetic is merely an

ornament and bonus added to dwelling. Nor does the poetic

character of dwelling mean merely that the poetic turns up in

some way or other in all dwelling. Rather, the phrase "poetically i

man dwells" says: poetry first causes dwelling to be dwelling.

Poetry is what really lets us dwell. But through what do we

attain to a dwelling place? Through building. Poetic creation,

which lets us dwell, is a kind of building.


Thus we confront a double demand: for one thing, we are

to think of what is called man's existence by way of the nature

of dwelling; for another, we are to think of the nature of poetry

as a letting-dwell, as a-perhaps even the-distinctive kind of

building. If we search out the nature of poetry according to this

viewpoint, then we arrive at the nature of dwelling.



But where do we humans get our information about the

nature of dwelling and poetry? Where does man generally get

the claim to arrive at the nature of something? Man can make

such a claim only where he receives it. He receives it from the

telling of language. Of course, only when and only as long as he

respects language's own nature. Meanwhile, there rages round

the earth an unbridled yet clever talking, writing, and broadcasting

of spoken words. Man acts as though he were the shaper and

master of language, while in fact language remains the master

of man.





--- On Thu, 3/8/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Thursday, March 8, 2012, 1:19 PM

Skinner on research in poetry



I should add that the Skinner book looks like it might be a good, 
worthwhile read, in spite of the use of terminology I don?t favor.
?
--Bob


?

From: bob grumman 
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 12:39 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in 
poetry
?



?


?

From: David Graham 
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 10:42 AM
To: NewPoetry 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in 
poetry
?

The prose feature up 
now on Poetry Daily is from a book I just started reading by Jeffrey 
Skinner:? The 6.5 Practices of Moderately Successful Poets: A Self-Help 
Memoir.? So far, I?m finding it a very entertaining and wise 
volume.? And possibly the best title of the year.

http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_skinner.php

Here?s 
a snippet from the chapter posted on PD, titled ?O, Research?:

When I was 
forming myself (and being formed) as a poet in my twenties, the fields of 
science and poetry had amicably separated. It is difficult to imagine Strand or 
Merwin, as learned and urbane as they were, laboring to insinuate the latest 
discoveries in physics or cosmology into their pared-down, stone and bone, 
deep-image poems. And it is equally hard to imagine that Robert Creeley or Alan 
Dugan sat down with much more than their own minds, which lucky for them 
included encyclopedic knowledge of English and American prosody, to write the 
next poem. It is true that Adrienne Rich, Lucille Clifton, and other pioneers 
were bringing fresh cultural, ethnic, and gender perspectives into what was at 
the time a practice dominated by white men. And there was "language" poetry, 
which came packed with its own political theory and ambitions for wider cultural 
inclusion. But beyond these exceptions the era of the seventies was more 
romantic than classical, and the brief lyric issuing from a definable self was 
clearly the dominant and ascendant mode.

Everything changes. Today young 
poets have the speed and reach of the Internet at their fingertips. This, 
coupled with a postmodernnist worldview that inherently distrusts the notion of 
a stable self, has made for an innovative and decentered poetry that allows for 
a sometimes bewildering range of voices, tones, rhetorical sets, "nonpoetic" 
disciplines and obsessions, jargons, and exotic, un-"poetic" bodies of 
knowledge, to be incorporated into the work. It has resulted in a restructuring 
of what we mean when we say poetry. It has made for an amazing variety of 
poetries.
--Jeffrey Skinner



Weird to 
me, David, that you would be interested in someone who?d write the second 
paragraph above.? I don?t believe in postmodernism, myself, nor do I think 
distrust of ?the notion of a stable self? has much to do with what?s going on in 
poetry, although that distrust may be one reason so much of it is crap.? My 
impression is that most of the ?amazing variety of poetries? is due to a 
reduction of the self-to-objective-reality ratio among poets?or, put more 
simply, a preference for composing poetry about things and/or ideas (and images 
thereof) rather than about people.

?

--Bob

?

--Bob


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing 
list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu  Fri Mar  9 16:34:18 2012
From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 15:34:18 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
In-Reply-To: <1331326207.33944.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1331326207.33944.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4F5A775A.2090907@louisiana.edu>

I don't have time today to help with this beyond two things, Stephen: 
first, the phrase in German is /"...dichterisch wohnet der Mensch."/

Second, here's a note on the first line (and a German source):

       The phrase is taken from a late poem by H?lderlin, which comes to 
us by a curious route. It begins: "In lovely blueness
        blooms the steeple with metal roof." (Stuttgart edition 2, I, 
pp. 372 ff.; Hellingrath VI, pp. 24 ff.) ...

Maybe that will speed your process. I'd appreciate hearing the actual 
title, if you find it.

Best,

Jerry

On 3/9/2012 2:50 PM, stephen russell wrote:
> now if I can find the actual poem by Holderlin ...
>
> --- On *Fri, 3/9/12, stephen russell /<poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>/* 
> wrote:
>
>
>     From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
>     Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
>     To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>     Date: Friday, March 9, 2012, 3:45 PM
>
>     From poetry/language/thought ... Heidegger --
>
>     When Holderlin speaks of dwelling, he has before his eyes the
>     basic character of human existence. He sees the "poetic," moreover,
>     by way of its relation to this dwelling, thus understood
>     essentially.
>
>     This does not mean, though, that the poetic is merely an
>     ornament and bonus added to dwelling. Nor does the poetic
>     character of dwelling mean merely that the poetic turns up in
>     some way or other in all dwelling. Rather, the phrase "poetically i
>     man dwells" says: poetry first causes dwelling to be dwelling.
>     Poetry is what really lets us dwell. But through what do we
>     attain to a dwelling place? Through building. Poetic creation,
>     which lets us dwell, is a kind of building.
>
>     Thus we confront a double demand: for one thing, we are
>     to think of what is called man's existence by way of the nature
>     of dwelling; for another, we are to think of the nature of poetry
>     as a letting-dwell, as a-perhaps even the-distinctive kind of
>     building. If we search out the nature of poetry according to this
>     viewpoint, then we arrive at the nature of dwelling.
>
>     But where do we humans get our information about the
>     nature of dwelling and poetry? Where does man generally get
>     the claim to arrive at the nature of something? Man can make
>     such a claim only where he receives it. He receives it from the
>     telling of language. Of course, only when and only as long as he
>     respects language's own nature. Meanwhile, there rages round
>     the earth an unbridled yet clever talking, writing, and broadcasting
>     of spoken words. Man acts as though he were the shaper and
>     master of language, while in fact language remains the master
>     of man.
>
>
>
>
>     --- On *Thu, 3/8/12, bob grumman /<bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>/* wrote:
>
>
>         From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>         Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
>         To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>         Date: Thursday, March 8, 2012, 1:19 PM
>
>         I should add that the Skinner book looks like it might be a
>         good, worthwhile read, in spite of the use of terminology I
>         don't favor.
>         --Bob
>         *From:* bob grumman
>         *Sent:* Thursday, March 08, 2012 12:39 PM
>         *To:* NewPoetry List
>         *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
>         *From:* David Graham
>         *Sent:* Thursday, March 08, 2012 10:42 AM
>         *To:* NewPoetry
>         *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
>         The prose feature up now on Poetry Daily is from a book I just
>         started reading by Jeffrey Skinner: /The 6.5 Practices of
>         Moderately Successful Poets: A Self-Help Memoir. /So far, I'm
>         finding it a very entertaining and wise volume.  And possibly
>         the best title of the year.
>
>         http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_skinner.php
>
>         Here's a snippet from the chapter posted on PD, titled "O,
>         Research":
>
>         When I was forming myself (and being formed) as a poet in my
>         twenties, the fields of science and poetry had amicably
>         separated. It is difficult to imagine Strand or Merwin, as
>         learned and urbane as they were, laboring to insinuate the
>         latest discoveries in physics or cosmology into their
>         pared-down, stone and bone, deep-image poems. And it is
>         equally hard to imagine that Robert Creeley or Alan Dugan sat
>         down with much more than their own minds, which lucky for them
>         included encyclopedic knowledge of English and American
>         prosody, to write the next poem. It is true that Adrienne
>         Rich, Lucille Clifton, and other pioneers were bringing fresh
>         cultural, ethnic, and gender perspectives into what was at the
>         time a practice dominated by white men. And there was
>         "language" poetry, which came packed with its own political
>         theory and ambitions for wider cultural inclusion. But beyond
>         these exceptions the era of the seventies was more romantic
>         than classical, and the brief lyric issuing from a definable
>         self was clearly the dominant and ascendant mode.
>
>         Everything changes. Today young poets have the speed and reach
>         of the Internet at their fingertips. This, coupled with a
>         postmodernnist worldview that inherently distrusts the notion
>         of a stable self, has made for an innovative and decentered
>         poetry that allows for a sometimes bewildering range of
>         voices, tones, rhetorical sets, "nonpoetic" disciplines and
>         obsessions, jargons, and exotic, un-"poetic" bodies of
>         knowledge, to be incorporated into the work. It has resulted
>         in a restructuring of what we mean when we say poetry. It has
>         made for an amazing variety of poetries.
>         --Jeffrey Skinner
>
>         Weird to me, David, that you would be interested in someone
>         who'd write the second paragraph above.  I don't believe in
>         postmodernism, myself, nor do I think distrust of "the notion
>         of a stable self" has much to do with what's going on in
>         poetry, although that distrust may be one reason so much of it
>         is crap.  My impression is that most of the "amazing variety
>         of poetries" is due to a reduction of the
>         self-to-objective-reality ratio among poets---or, put more
>         simply, a preference for composing poetry about things and/or
>         ideas (and images thereof) rather than about people.
>         --Bob
>         --Bob
>
>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>         _______________________________________________
>         New-Poetry mailing list
>         New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>         http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>         -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         New-Poetry mailing list
>         New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>         http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>     -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     New-Poetry mailing list
>     New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu </mc/compose?to=New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>     http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506
jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
337-482-5478

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Mar  9 18:17:12 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 18:17:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] 4 Visual poetry sequences of mine now up at scribd
In-Reply-To: <4F5A775A.2090907@louisiana.edu>
References: <1331326207.33944.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<4F5A775A.2090907@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <94E4465B724B4C7CB9D51071CBBFEFDC@BobHP>

Skinner on research in poetryhttp://www.scribd.com/doc/84592044/Sequences
One is from over twenty years ago?first published by Trudy Mercer.  It may be my first color work, thanks to her?I typed it on a regular typewriter, she had her printer print it in blue.  All are from the last century.  Weird to say that . . .
--Bob
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From htthinc at gmail.com  Fri Mar  9 19:39:48 2012
From: htthinc at gmail.com (Paul Howell)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 19:39:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
In-Reply-To: <1331325949.68750.YahooMailClassic@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <EE9A9DF2C842478B909ED00576C25F69@BobHP>
	<1331325949.68750.YahooMailClassic@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CACHqp-4RWzFmer5tAPDqftMa_5vcva86PqMGb7oY020M1ruGDw@mail.gmail.com>

glad to see this

On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 3:45 PM, stephen russell <
poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From poetry/language/thought ... Heidegger --
>
> When Holderlin speaks of dwelling, he has before his eyes the
> basic character of human existence. He sees the "poetic," moreover,
> by way of its relation to this dwelling, thus understood
> essentially.
>
> This does not mean, though, that the poetic is merely an
> ornament and bonus added to dwelling. Nor does the poetic
> character of dwelling mean merely that the poetic turns up in
> some way or other in all dwelling. Rather, the phrase "poetically i
> man dwells" says: poetry first causes dwelling to be dwelling.
> Poetry is what really lets us dwell. But through what do we
> attain to a dwelling place? Through building. Poetic creation,
> which lets us dwell, is a kind of building.
>
> Thus we confront a double demand: for one thing, we are
> to think of what is called man's existence by way of the nature
> of dwelling; for another, we are to think of the nature of poetry
> as a letting-dwell, as a-perhaps even the-distinctive kind of
> building. If we search out the nature of poetry according to this
> viewpoint, then we arrive at the nature of dwelling.
>
> But where do we humans get our information about the
> nature of dwelling and poetry? Where does man generally get
> the claim to arrive at the nature of something? Man can make
> such a claim only where he receives it. He receives it from the
> telling of language. Of course, only when and only as long as he
> respects language's own nature. Meanwhile, there rages round
> the earth an unbridled yet clever talking, writing, and broadcasting
> of spoken words. Man acts as though he were the shaper and
> master of language, while in fact language remains the master
> of man.
>
>
>
>
> --- On *Thu, 3/8/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>* wrote:
>
>
> From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
> To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Date: Thursday, March 8, 2012, 1:19 PM
>
>   I should add that the Skinner book looks like it might be a good,
> worthwhile read, in spite of the use of terminology I don?t favor.
>
> --Bob
>
>  *From:* bob grumman <http://mc/compose?to=bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 08, 2012 12:39 PM
> *To:* NewPoetry List <http://mc/compose?to=new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
>
>
>
>  *From:* David Graham <http://mc/compose?to=GrahamD at ripon.edu>
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 08, 2012 10:42 AM
> *To:* NewPoetry <http://mc/compose?to=new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
>
>  The prose feature up now on Poetry Daily is from a book I just started
> reading by Jeffrey Skinner:  *The 6.5 Practices of Moderately Successful
> Poets: A Self-Help Memoir.  *So far, I?m finding it a very entertaining
> and wise volume.  And possibly the best title of the year.
>
> http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_skinner.php
>
> Here?s a snippet from the chapter posted on PD, titled ?O, Research?:
>
> When I was forming myself (and being formed) as a poet in my twenties, the
> fields of science and poetry had amicably separated. It is difficult to
> imagine Strand or Merwin, as learned and urbane as they were, laboring to
> insinuate the latest discoveries in physics or cosmology into their
> pared-down, stone and bone, deep-image poems. And it is equally hard to
> imagine that Robert Creeley or Alan Dugan sat down with much more than
> their own minds, which lucky for them included encyclopedic knowledge of
> English and American prosody, to write the next poem. It is true that
> Adrienne Rich, Lucille Clifton, and other pioneers were bringing fresh
> cultural, ethnic, and gender perspectives into what was at the time a
> practice dominated by white men. And there was "language" poetry, which
> came packed with its own political theory and ambitions for wider cultural
> inclusion. But beyond these exceptions the era of the seventies was more
> romantic than classical, and the brief lyric issuing from a definable self
> was clearly the dominant and ascendant mode.
>
> Everything changes. Today young poets have the speed and reach of the
> Internet at their fingertips. This, coupled with a postmodernnist worldview
> that inherently distrusts the notion of a stable self, has made for an
> innovative and decentered poetry that allows for a sometimes bewildering
> range of voices, tones, rhetorical sets, "nonpoetic" disciplines and
> obsessions, jargons, and exotic, un-"poetic" bodies of knowledge, to be
> incorporated into the work. It has resulted in a restructuring of what we
> mean when we say poetry. It has made for an amazing variety of poetries.
> --Jeffrey Skinner
>
>  Weird to me, David, that you would be interested in someone who?d write
> the second paragraph above.  I don?t believe in postmodernism, myself, nor
> do I think distrust of ?the notion of a stable self? has much to do with
> what?s going on in poetry, although that distrust may be one reason so much
> of it is crap.  My impression is that most of the ?amazing variety of
> poetries? is due to a reduction of the self-to-objective-reality ratio
> among poets?or, put more simply, a preference for composing poetry about
> things and/or ideas (and images thereof) rather than about people.
>
>  --Bob
>
>  --Bob
>
> ------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
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> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu<http://mc/compose?to=New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From jforjames at aol.com  Fri Mar  9 19:45:41 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 19:45:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
In-Reply-To: <CB7E2F8E.7917%GrahamD@ripon.edu>
References: <CB7E2F8E.7917%GrahamD@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <8CECC6E4101A208-100C-3F7C@webmail-d139.sysops.aol.com>

Thanks for posting this, David. I know Jeff Skinner from Louisville years. There's a large excerpt from the book
at the Sarabande site...
http://www.sarabandebooks.org/?page_id=6476
Good stuff...Different from the usual 'writing life' material.
Finnegan


-----Original Message-----
From: David Graham <GrahamD at ripon.edu>
To: NewPoetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thu, Mar 8, 2012 2:21 pm
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry


The prose feature up now on Poetry Daily is from a book I just started reading by Jeffrey Skinner:  The 6.5 Practices of Moderately Successful Poets: A Self-Help Memoir.  So far, I?m finding it a very entertaining and wise volume.  And possibly the best title of the year.

http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_skinner.php

Here?s a snippet from the chapter posted on PD, titled ?O, Research?:

When I was forming myself (and being formed) as a poet in my twenties, the fields of science and poetry had amicably separated. It is difficult to imagine Strand or Merwin, as learned and urbane as they were, laboring to insinuate the latest discoveries in physics or cosmology into their pared-down, stone and bone, deep-image poems. And it is equally hard to imagine that Robert Creeley or Alan Dugan sat down with much more than their own minds, which lucky for them included encyclopedic knowledge of English and American prosody, to write the next poem. It is true that Adrienne Rich, Lucille Clifton, and other pioneers were bringing fresh cultural, ethnic, and gender perspectives into what was at the time a practice dominated by white men. And there was "language" poetry, which came packed with its own political theory and ambitions for wider cultural inclusion. But beyond these exceptions the era of the seventies was more romantic than classical, and the brief lyric issuing from a definable self was clearly the dominant and ascendant mode.

Everything changes. Today young poets have the speed and reach of the Internet at their fingertips. This, coupled with a postmodernnist worldview that inherently distrusts the notion of a stable self, has made for an innovative and decentered poetry that allows for a sometimes bewildering range of voices, tones, rhetorical sets, "nonpoetic" disciplines and obsessions, jargons, and exotic, un-"poetic" bodies of knowledge, to be incorporated into the work. It has resulted in a restructuring of what we mean when we say poetry. It has made for an amazing variety of poetries.
--Jeffrey Skinner


-- 

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz

Poetry Library:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================


 
_______________________________________________
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Mar  9 20:17:37 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 20:17:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
In-Reply-To: <1331325949.68750.YahooMailClassic@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1331325949.68750.YahooMailClassic@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <252A1B96E3984B448184B038EE680D8B@BobHP>

Skinner on research in poetry

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 3:45 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry

      From poetry/language/thought ... Heidegger --

      When Holderlin speaks of dwelling, he has before his eyes the
      basic character of human existence. He sees the "poetic," moreover,
      by way of its relation to this dwelling, thus understood
      essentially.

      This does not mean, though, that the poetic is merely an
      ornament and bonus added to dwelling. Nor does the poetic
      character of dwelling mean merely that the poetic turns up in
      some way or other in all dwelling. Rather, the phrase "poetically i
      man dwells" says: poetry first causes dwelling to be dwelling.
      Poetry is what really lets us dwell. But through what do we
      attain to a dwelling place? Through building. Poetic creation,
      which lets us dwell, is a kind of building.

      Thus we confront a double demand: for one thing, we are
      to think of what is called man's existence by way of the nature
      of dwelling; for another, we are to think of the nature of poetry
      as a letting-dwell, as a-perhaps even the-distinctive kind of
      building. If we search out the nature of poetry according to this
      viewpoint, then we arrive at the nature of dwelling.

      But where do we humans get our information about the
      nature of dwelling and poetry? Where does man generally get
      the claim to arrive at the nature of something? Man can make
      such a claim only where he receives it. He receives it from the
      telling of language. Of course, only when and only as long as he
      respects language's own nature. Meanwhile, there rages round
      the earth an unbridled yet clever talking, writing, and broadcasting
      of spoken words. Man acts as though he were the shaper and
      master of language, while in fact language remains the master
      of man.


      Man also acts as though he were the master of his toothbrush when actually his toothbrush remains the master of man.  The toothbrush, in fact, is the master of language, which it invented.  Language, of course, then invented man, and poetry, which man used to get at the nature of his toothbrush.  Isn?t philogushy fun!?

      --Bob



      --- On Thu, 3/8/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


        From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
        Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
        To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
        Date: Thursday, March 8, 2012, 1:19 PM


        I should add that the Skinner book looks like it might be a good, worthwhile read, in spite of the use of terminology I don?t favor.

        --Bob

        From: bob grumman 
        Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 12:39 PM
        To: NewPoetry List 
        Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry



        From: David Graham 
        Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 10:42 AM
        To: NewPoetry 
        Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry

        The prose feature up now on Poetry Daily is from a book I just started reading by Jeffrey Skinner:  The 6.5 Practices of Moderately Successful Poets: A Self-Help Memoir.  So far, I?m finding it a very entertaining and wise volume.  And possibly the best title of the year.

        http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_skinner.php

        Here?s a snippet from the chapter posted on PD, titled ?O, Research?:

        When I was forming myself (and being formed) as a poet in my twenties, the fields of science and poetry had amicably separated. It is difficult to imagine Strand or Merwin, as learned and urbane as they were, laboring to insinuate the latest discoveries in physics or cosmology into their pared-down, stone and bone, deep-image poems. And it is equally hard to imagine that Robert Creeley or Alan Dugan sat down with much more than their own minds, which lucky for them included encyclopedic knowledge of English and American prosody, to write the next poem. It is true that Adrienne Rich, Lucille Clifton, and other pioneers were bringing fresh cultural, ethnic, and gender perspectives into what was at the time a practice dominated by white men. And there was "language" poetry, which came packed with its own political theory and ambitions for wider cultural inclusion. But beyond these exceptions the era of the seventies was more romantic than classical, and the brief lyric issuing from a definable self was clearly the dominant and ascendant mode.

        Everything changes. Today young poets have the speed and reach of the Internet at their fingertips. This, coupled with a postmodernnist worldview that inherently distrusts the notion of a stable self, has made for an innovative and decentered poetry that allows for a sometimes bewildering range of voices, tones, rhetorical sets, "nonpoetic" disciplines and obsessions, jargons, and exotic, un-"poetic" bodies of knowledge, to be incorporated into the work. It has resulted in a restructuring of what we mean when we say poetry. It has made for an amazing variety of poetries.
        --Jeffrey Skinner


        Weird to me, David, that you would be interested in someone who?d write the second paragraph above.  I don?t believe in postmodernism, myself, nor do I think distrust of ?the notion of a stable self? has much to do with what?s going on in poetry, although that distrust may be one reason so much of it is crap.  My impression is that most of the ?amazing variety of poetries? is due to a reduction of the self-to-objective-reality ratio among poets?or, put more simply, a preference for composing poetry about things and/or ideas (and images thereof) rather than about people.
        --Bob
        --Bob

------------------------------------------------------------------------
        _______________________________________________
        New-Poetry mailing list
        New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
        http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From ahadada at gol.com  Fri Mar  9 22:41:03 2012
From: ahadada at gol.com (ahadada at gol.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 03:41:03 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] "For Japan"--Jerome Rothenberg, Hiromi Ito,
	Amy Uyematsu, Marthe Reed, Jesse Glass at Beyond Baroque
Message-ID: <RsfEJ96L.1331350863.3523810.ahadada@gol.com>

Friday, 16th March 7 P.M. Beyond Baroque Literary Center, Venice Beach.

For more info. see their website.

This reading is a fund-raiser for the families of Fukushima and
surrounding areas.  Jess




From jforjames at aol.com  Fri Mar  9 23:01:01 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 23:01:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rupert Brooke of his generation
Message-ID: <8CECC898A85FC4D-16BC-4EA7@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=53964


LONDON.- The papers of the Second World War poet, Richard (Dicky) Spender, who has been described as the Rupert Brooke of his generation, are being sold at Bonhams Fine Books and Manuscripts sale in London on 27 March. They are estimated at ?4,000-6,000. 


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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 10 15:58:33 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:58:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
In-Reply-To: <252A1B96E3984B448184B038EE680D8B@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1331413113.40673.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Bob, that was immature. I expect more from you. You're starting to sound like me. Which might not be as bad as me pretending to be Pound, but it's disappointing, though amusing. & besides, the toothbrush is among man's most essential tools. A worthy subject for philos0phic musing. Have you read Zizek?

Make a fetish of the toothbrush, and the world becomes a miserable cavity. 

--- On Fri, 3/9/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Friday, March 9, 2012, 8:17 PM

Skinner on research in poetry



?


?

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 3:45 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in 
poetry
?


  
  
    
      From poetry/language/thought ... Heidegger --

When Holderlin 
      speaks of dwelling, he has before his eyes the
basic character of human 
      existence. He sees the "poetic," moreover,
by way of its relation to 
      this dwelling, thus understood
essentially.

This does not mean, 
      though, that the poetic is merely an
ornament and bonus added to 
      dwelling. Nor does the poetic
character of dwelling mean merely that 
      the poetic turns up in
some way or other in all dwelling. Rather, the 
      phrase "poetically i
man dwells" says: poetry first causes dwelling to 
      be dwelling.
Poetry is what really lets us dwell. But through what do 
      we
attain to a dwelling place? Through building. Poetic 
      creation,
which lets us dwell, is a kind of building.

Thus we 
      confront a double demand: for one thing, we are
to think of what is 
      called man's existence by way of the nature
of dwelling; for another, 
      we are to think of the nature of poetry
as a letting-dwell, as 
      a-perhaps even the-distinctive kind of
building. If we search out the 
      nature of poetry according to this
viewpoint, then we arrive at the 
      nature of dwelling.

But where do we humans get our information 
      about the
nature of dwelling and poetry? Where does man generally 
      get
the claim to arrive at the nature of something? Man can 
      make
such a claim only where he receives it. He receives it from 
      the
telling of language. Of course, only when and only as long as 
      he
respects language's own nature. Meanwhile, there rages round
the 
      earth an unbridled yet clever talking, writing, and broadcasting
of 
      spoken words. Man acts as though he were the shaper and
master of 
      language, while in fact language remains the master
of 
      man.


      Man also acts as though he were the master of his 
      toothbrush when actually his toothbrush remains the master of man.? 
      The toothbrush, in fact, is the master of language, which it 
      invented.? Language, of course, then invented man, and poetry, which 
      man used to get at the nature of his toothbrush.? Isn?t philogushy 
      fun!?
      ?
      --Bob
      


--- On Thu, 3/8/12, bob grumman 
      <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

      
From: 
        bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: 
        [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
To: "NewPoetry List" 
        <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Thursday, March 8, 2012, 
        1:19 PM


        
        
        
        
        I should add that the Skinner book looks like it might be a good, 
        worthwhile read, in spite of the use of terminology I don?t favor.
        ?
        --Bob
        
        
        ?
        
        From: bob grumman 
        
        Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 12:39 PM
        To: NewPoetry 
        List 
        Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in 
        poetry
        ?
        
        
        
        ?
        
        
        ?
        
        From: David Graham 
        Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 10:42 AM
        To: NewPoetry 
        
        Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in 
        poetry
        ?
        
        The prose 
        feature up now on Poetry Daily is from a book I just started reading by 
        Jeffrey Skinner:? The 6.5 Practices of Moderately Successful 
        Poets: A Self-Help Memoir.? So far, I?m finding it a very 
        entertaining and wise volume.? And possibly the best title of the 
        year.

http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_skinner.php

Here?s 
        a snippet from the chapter posted on PD, titled ?O, 
        Research?:

When I was forming myself (and being formed) as a poet 
        in my twenties, the fields of science and poetry had amicably separated. 
        It is difficult to imagine Strand or Merwin, as learned and urbane as 
        they were, laboring to insinuate the latest discoveries in physics or 
        cosmology into their pared-down, stone and bone, deep-image poems. And 
        it is equally hard to imagine that Robert Creeley or Alan Dugan sat down 
        with much more than their own minds, which lucky for them included 
        encyclopedic knowledge of English and American prosody, to write the 
        next poem. It is true that Adrienne Rich, Lucille Clifton, and other 
        pioneers were bringing fresh cultural, ethnic, and gender perspectives 
        into what was at the time a practice dominated by white men. And there 
        was "language" poetry, which came packed with its own political theory 
        and ambitions for wider cultural inclusion. But beyond these exceptions 
        the era of the seventies was more romantic than classical, and the brief 
        lyric issuing from a definable self was clearly the dominant and 
        ascendant mode.

Everything changes. Today young poets have the 
        speed and reach of the Internet at their fingertips. This, coupled with 
        a postmodernnist worldview that inherently distrusts the notion of a 
        stable self, has made for an innovative and decentered poetry that 
        allows for a sometimes bewildering range of voices, tones, rhetorical 
        sets, "nonpoetic" disciplines and obsessions, jargons, and exotic, 
        un-"poetic" bodies of knowledge, to be incorporated into the work. It 
        has resulted in a restructuring of what we mean when we say poetry. It 
        has made for an amazing variety of poetries.
--Jeffrey 
        Skinner


        
        Weird to me, David, that you would be interested in someone 
        who?d write the second paragraph above.? I don?t believe in 
        postmodernism, myself, nor do I think distrust of ?the notion of a 
        stable self? has much to do with what?s going on in poetry, although 
        that distrust may be one reason so much of it is crap.? My 
        impression is that most of the ?amazing variety of poetries? is due to a 
        reduction of the self-to-objective-reality ratio among poets?or, put 
        more simply, a preference for composing poetry about things and/or ideas 
        (and images thereof) rather than about 
        people.
        
        ?
        
        --Bob
        
        ?
        
        --Bob
        
        _______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing 
        list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-----Inline 
        Attachment Follows-----


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        mailing list
wlmailhtml:/mc/compose?to=New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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_______________________________________________
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list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From jforjames at aol.com  Sat Mar 10 19:42:55 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 19:42:55 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] AWP recap
Message-ID: <8CECD37086A0C9E-1D84-64D@webmail-d152.sysops.aol.com>




http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ru-freeman/awp-writers-conference-_b_1319755.html

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From almaginnes at aol.com  Sat Mar 10 20:11:35 2012
From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 20:11:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] AWP recap
In-Reply-To: <8CECD37086A0C9E-1D84-64D@webmail-d152.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CECD37086A0C9E-1D84-64D@webmail-d152.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8CECD3B09724CCC-1E20-A8BE@Webmail-d109.sysops.aol.com>

Well, that was about the least helpful of all the recaps of AWP I've seen.
 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: jforjames <jforjames at aol.com>
To: new-poetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sat, Mar 10, 2012 7:50 pm
Subject: [New-Poetry] AWP recap





http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ru-freeman/awp-writers-conference-_b_1319755.html
 

 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Mar 11 07:13:24 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 07:13:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
In-Reply-To: <1331413113.40673.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1331413113.40673.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <A3FDC7C79E20406B923A542EC50BDE0D@BobHP>

Skinner on research in poetryWho is Zizek?  I like his name.  No doubt it tells him what to do and say.

Hey, I may be stupid but I isn?t immature!

Robert

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 3:58 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry

      Bob, that was immature. I expect more from you. You're starting to sound like me. Which might not be as bad as me pretending to be Pound, but it's disappointing, though amusing. & besides, the toothbrush is among man's most essential tools. A worthy subject for philos0phic musing. Have you read Zizek?

      Make a fetish of the toothbrush, and the world becomes a miserable cavity. 

      --- On Fri, 3/9/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


        From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
        Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
        To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
        Date: Friday, March 9, 2012, 8:17 PM




        From: stephen russell 
        Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 3:45 PM
        To: NewPoetry List 
        Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry

              From poetry/language/thought ... Heidegger --

              When Holderlin speaks of dwelling, he has before his eyes the
              basic character of human existence. He sees the "poetic," moreover,
              by way of its relation to this dwelling, thus understood
              essentially.

              This does not mean, though, that the poetic is merely an
              ornament and bonus added to dwelling. Nor does the poetic
              character of dwelling mean merely that the poetic turns up in
              some way or other in all dwelling. Rather, the phrase "poetically i
              man dwells" says: poetry first causes dwelling to be dwelling.
              Poetry is what really lets us dwell. But through what do we
              attain to a dwelling place? Through building. Poetic creation,
              which lets us dwell, is a kind of building.

              Thus we confront a double demand: for one thing, we are
              to think of what is called man's existence by way of the nature
              of dwelling; for another, we are to think of the nature of poetry
              as a letting-dwell, as a-perhaps even the-distinctive kind of
              building. If we search out the nature of poetry according to this
              viewpoint, then we arrive at the nature of dwelling.

              But where do we humans get our information about the
              nature of dwelling and poetry? Where does man generally get
              the claim to arrive at the nature of something? Man can make
              such a claim only where he receives it. He receives it from the
              telling of language. Of course, only when and only as long as he
              respects language's own nature. Meanwhile, there rages round
              the earth an unbridled yet clever talking, writing, and broadcasting
              of spoken words. Man acts as though he were the shaper and
              master of language, while in fact language remains the master
              of man.


              Man also acts as though he were the master of his toothbrush when actually his toothbrush remains the master of man.  The toothbrush, in fact, is the master of language, which it invented.  Language, of course, then invented man, and poetry, which man used to get at the nature of his toothbrush.  Isn?t philogushy fun!?

              --Bob



              --- On Thu, 3/8/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


                From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
                Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
                To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
                Date: Thursday, March 8, 2012, 1:19 PM


                I should add that the Skinner book looks like it might be a good, worthwhile read, in spite of the use of terminology I don?t favor.

                --Bob

                From: bob grumman 
                Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 12:39 PM
                To: NewPoetry List 
                Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry



                From: David Graham 
                Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 10:42 AM
                To: NewPoetry 
                Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry

                The prose feature up now on Poetry Daily is from a book I just started reading by Jeffrey Skinner:  The 6.5 Practices of Moderately Successful Poets: A Self-Help Memoir.  So far, I?m finding it a very entertaining and wise volume.  And possibly the best title of the year.

                http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_skinner.php

                Here?s a snippet from the chapter posted on PD, titled ?O, Research?:

                When I was forming myself (and being formed) as a poet in my twenties, the fields of science and poetry had amicably separated. It is difficult to imagine Strand or Merwin, as learned and urbane as they were, laboring to insinuate the latest discoveries in physics or cosmology into their pared-down, stone and bone, deep-image poems. And it is equally hard to imagine that Robert Creeley or Alan Dugan sat down with much more than their own minds, which lucky for them included encyclopedic knowledge of English and American prosody, to write the next poem. It is true that Adrienne Rich, Lucille Clifton, and other pioneers were bringing fresh cultural, ethnic, and gender perspectives into what was at the time a practice dominated by white men. And there was "language" poetry, which came packed with its own political theory and ambitions for wider cultural inclusion. But beyond these exceptions the era of the seventies was more romantic than classical, and the brief lyric issuing from a definable self was clearly the dominant and ascendant mode.

                Everything changes. Today young poets have the speed and reach of the Internet at their fingertips. This, coupled with a postmodernnist worldview that inherently distrusts the notion of a stable self, has made for an innovative and decentered poetry that allows for a sometimes bewildering range of voices, tones, rhetorical sets, "nonpoetic" disciplines and obsessions, jargons, and exotic, un-"poetic" bodies of knowledge, to be incorporated into the work. It has resulted in a restructuring of what we mean when we say poetry. It has made for an amazing variety of poetries.
                --Jeffrey Skinner


                Weird to me, David, that you would be interested in someone who?d write the second paragraph above.  I don?t believe in postmodernism, myself, nor do I think distrust of ?the notion of a stable self? has much to do with what?s going on in poetry, although that distrust may be one reason so much of it is crap.  My impression is that most of the ?amazing variety of poetries? is due to a reduction of the self-to-objective-reality ratio among poets?or, put more simply, a preference for composing poetry about things and/or ideas (and images thereof) rather than about people.
                --Bob
                --Bob

----------------------------------------------------------------
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 11 14:14:40 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 11:14:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
In-Reply-To: <A3FDC7C79E20406B923A542EC50BDE0D@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1331489680.55554.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Immature in the sense that humor is meant to please without the burden of elevated rhetoric ... Slajov Zizek (surname without the accents), the most enlightening, fun, troubling mind everyone should be forced to read. & (suprise!) popular. 

Why the Robert? Bob's better. Or are you elevating yourself to philosophical discourse with a more dignified name. 'Cause a mere Bob shouldn't shy away from philosophy. Although I'm unlikely to attempt mathmatics anytime soon. 

--- On Sun, 3/11/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Sunday, March 11, 2012, 7:13 AM

Skinner on research in poetry



Who is Zizek?? I like his name.? No doubt it tells him what to do 
and say.
?
Hey, I may be stupid but I isn?t immature!
?
Robert


?

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 3:58 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in 
poetry
?


  
  
    Bob, that was immature. I expect more from you. You're 
      starting to sound like me. Which might not be as bad as me pretending to 
      be Pound, but it's disappointing, though amusing. & besides, the 
      toothbrush is among man's most essential tools. A worthy subject for 
      philos0phic musing. Have you read Zizek?

Make a fetish of the 
      toothbrush, and the world becomes a miserable cavity. 

--- On 
      Fri, 3/9/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> 
      wrote:

      
From: 
        bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: 
        [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
To: 
        "NewPoetry List" 
        <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Friday, March 9, 2012, 8:17 
        PM


        
        
        
        
        ?
        
        
        ?
        
        From: stephen russell 
        Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 3:45 PM
        To: NewPoetry 
        List 
        Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in 
        poetry
        ?
        
        
          
          
            
              From poetry/language/thought ... Heidegger --

When 
              Holderlin speaks of dwelling, he has before his eyes the
basic 
              character of human existence. He sees the "poetic," 
              moreover,
by way of its relation to this dwelling, thus 
              understood
essentially.

This does not mean, though, that 
              the poetic is merely an
ornament and bonus added to dwelling. 
              Nor does the poetic
character of dwelling mean merely that the 
              poetic turns up in
some way or other in all dwelling. Rather, 
              the phrase "poetically i
man dwells" says: poetry first causes 
              dwelling to be dwelling.
Poetry is what really lets us dwell. 
              But through what do we
attain to a dwelling place? Through 
              building. Poetic creation,
which lets us dwell, is a kind of 
              building.

Thus we confront a double demand: for one thing, 
              we are
to think of what is called man's existence by way of the 
              nature
of dwelling; for another, we are to think of the nature 
              of poetry
as a letting-dwell, as a-perhaps even the-distinctive 
              kind of
building. If we search out the nature of poetry 
              according to this
viewpoint, then we arrive at the nature of 
              dwelling.

But where do we humans get our information about 
              the
nature of dwelling and poetry? Where does man generally 
              get
the claim to arrive at the nature of something? Man can 
              make
such a claim only where he receives it. He receives it 
              from the
telling of language. Of course, only when and only as 
              long as he
respects language's own nature. Meanwhile, there 
              rages round
the earth an unbridled yet clever talking, writing, 
              and broadcasting
of spoken words. Man acts as though he were 
              the shaper and
master of language, while in fact language 
              remains the master
of man.


              Man also acts as though he were the master 
              of his toothbrush when actually his toothbrush remains the master 
              of man.? The toothbrush, in fact, is the master of language, 
              which it invented.? Language, of course, then invented man, 
              and poetry, which man used to get at the nature of his 
              toothbrush.? Isn?t philogushy fun!?
              ?
              --Bob
              


--- On Thu, 3/8/12, bob grumman 
              <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

              
From: 
                bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: 
                [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
To: "NewPoetry 
                List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Thursday, 
                March 8, 2012, 1:19 PM


                
                
                
                
                I should add that the Skinner book looks like it might be a 
                good, worthwhile read, in spite of the use of terminology I 
                don?t favor.
                ?
                --Bob
                
                
                ?
                
                From: bob grumman 
                Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 12:39 PM
                To: NewPoetry List 
                Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in 
                poetry
                ?
                
                
                
                ?
                
                
                ?
                
                From: David 
                Graham 
                Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 10:42 AM
                To: NewPoetry 
                Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in 
                poetry
                ?
                
                The 
                prose feature up now on Poetry Daily is from a book I just 
                started reading by Jeffrey Skinner:? The 6.5 Practices 
                of Moderately Successful Poets: A Self-Help Memoir.? So 
                far, I?m finding it a very entertaining and wise volume.? 
                And possibly the best title of the year.

http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_skinner.php

Here?s 
                a snippet from the chapter posted on PD, titled ?O, 
                Research?:

When I was forming myself (and being formed) 
                as a poet in my twenties, the fields of science and poetry had 
                amicably separated. It is difficult to imagine Strand or Merwin, 
                as learned and urbane as they were, laboring to insinuate the 
                latest discoveries in physics or cosmology into their 
                pared-down, stone and bone, deep-image poems. And it is equally 
                hard to imagine that Robert Creeley or Alan Dugan sat down with 
                much more than their own minds, which lucky for them included 
                encyclopedic knowledge of English and American prosody, to write 
                the next poem. It is true that Adrienne Rich, Lucille Clifton, 
                and other pioneers were bringing fresh cultural, ethnic, and 
                gender perspectives into what was at the time a practice 
                dominated by white men. And there was "language" poetry, which 
                came packed with its own political theory and ambitions for 
                wider cultural inclusion. But beyond these exceptions the era of 
                the seventies was more romantic than classical, and the brief 
                lyric issuing from a definable self was clearly the dominant and 
                ascendant mode.

Everything changes. Today young poets 
                have the speed and reach of the Internet at their fingertips. 
                This, coupled with a postmodernnist worldview that inherently 
                distrusts the notion of a stable self, has made for an 
                innovative and decentered poetry that allows for a sometimes 
                bewildering range of voices, tones, rhetorical sets, "nonpoetic" 
                disciplines and obsessions, jargons, and exotic, un-"poetic" 
                bodies of knowledge, to be incorporated into the work. It has 
                resulted in a restructuring of what we mean when we say poetry. 
                It has made for an amazing variety of poetries.
--Jeffrey 
                Skinner


                
                Weird to me, David, that you would be interested in 
                someone who?d write the second paragraph above.? I don?t 
                believe in postmodernism, myself, nor do I think distrust of 
                ?the notion of a stable self? has much to do with what?s going 
                on in poetry, although that distrust may be one reason so much 
                of it is crap.? My impression is that most of the ?amazing 
                variety of poetries? is due to a reduction of the 
                self-to-objective-reality ratio among poets?or, put more simply, 
                a preference for composing poetry about things and/or ideas (and 
                images thereof) rather than about 
                people.
                
                ?
                
                --Bob
                
                ?
                
                --Bob
                
                _______________________________________________
New-Poetry 
                mailing 
                list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-----Inline 
                Attachment Follows-----


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New-Poetry 
                mailing list
wlmailhtml:/mc/compose?to=New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

        
        _______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing 
        list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-----Inline 
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        mailing list
wlmailhtml:/mc/compose?to=New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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_______________________________________________
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list
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http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Mar 11 14:21:17 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 14:21:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
In-Reply-To: <1331489680.55554.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1331489680.55554.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <E565E92FEBA44B70AA2FD8202BAFC3BF@BobHP>

Skinner on research in poetryImmature in the sense that humor is meant to please without the burden of elevated rhetoric ... Slajov Zizek (surname without the accents), the most enlightening, fun, troubling mind everyone should be forced to read. & (suprise!) popular. 

Why the Robert? Bob's better. Or are you elevating yourself to philosophical discourse with a more dignified name. 'Cause a mere Bob shouldn't shy away from philosophy. Although I'm unlikely to attempt mathmatics anytime soon. 


Robert because us creative types gotta MAKE IT NOO!

--Wolfgang
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From jforjames at aol.com  Sun Mar 11 18:09:38 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 18:09:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Barney Rosset remembered
Message-ID: <8CECDEAC931377A-8F0-A713@webmail-m050.sysops.aol.com>


http://sagharboronline.com/sagharborexpress/suffolk-close-up/remembering-barney-rosset-16529


Grove for decades was a trail-blazer in publishing. Barney published figures like Beckett and Eugene Ionesco, Jean-Paul Sartre, Jean Genet, Pablo Neruda, Bertolt Brecht. He tested the limits of censorship with books like Henry Miller?s ?Tropic of Cancer? and D. H. Lawrence?s ?Lady Chatterley?s Lover,? and films he distributed such as ?I Am Curious (Yellow).? He published political books such as ?The Autobiography of Malcolm X.? He launched Evergreen Review, in which Grove Press authors and others, including poet Alan Ginsberg, appeared. As a result, he was targeted through the years by the FBI and CIA, as was confirmed in voluminous FBI and CIA documents he later obtained.


In 1985, he sold Grove Press to people, as he told me, that he thought he could trust. They would provide, at long last, he said, a solid financial base for Grove while he would remain in charge. Instead, in 1986 he was thrown out as president and chief executive officer.




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From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com  Mon Mar 12 09:16:37 2012
From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22e=B7ratio=22?=)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 09:16:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?Read_Me_=B7_Skips_at_Truck?=
Message-ID: <776b6ccfad24245fdcf56147c14237ec.squirrel@webmail4.web.com>

Read me.

Skips

at Truck.

http://halvard-johnson.blogspot.com/2012/03/gregory-vincent-st-thomasino-skips.html


e?



From newpoetry at mikesnider.org  Mon Mar 12 10:43:29 2012
From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 10:43:29 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
In-Reply-To: <8CECC6E4101A208-100C-3F7C@webmail-d139.sysops.aol.com>
References: <CB7E2F8E.7917%GrahamD@ripon.edu>
	<8CECC6E4101A208-100C-3F7C@webmail-d139.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <89A86A1B-1939-4809-8ACF-33B67AC9E108@mikesnider.org>

 When were you in Louisville, James? I was born there,  worked at General Electric's Appliance Park in the late 70s, then went to grad school at U of L in English, teaching freshman comp and creative writing for a fair part of the 80s. Started writing telecom software after that.

www.mikesnider.org

On Mar 9, 2012, at 19:45, jforjames at aol.com wrote:

> Thanks for posting this, David. I know Jeff Skinner from Louisville years. There's a large excerpt from the book
> at the Sarabande site...
> http://www.sarabandebooks.org/?page_id=6476
> Good stuff...Different from the usual 'writing life' material.
> Finnegan
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: David Graham <GrahamD at ripon.edu>
> To: NewPoetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thu, Mar 8, 2012 2:21 pm
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
> 
> The prose feature up now on Poetry Daily is from a book I just started reading by Jeffrey Skinner:  The 6.5 Practices of Moderately Successful Poets: A Self-Help Memoir.  So far, I?m finding it a very entertaining and wise volume.  And possibly the best title of the year.
> 
> http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_skinner.php
> 
> Here?s a snippet from the chapter posted on PD, titled ?O, Research?:
> 
> When I was forming myself (and being formed) as a poet in my twenties, the fields of science and poetry had amicably separated. It is difficult to imagine Strand or Merwin, as learned and urbane as they were, laboring to insinuate the latest discoveries in physics or cosmology into their pared-down, stone and bone, deep-image poems. And it is equally hard to imagine that Robert Creeley or Alan Dugan sat down with much more than their own minds, which lucky for them included encyclopedic knowledge of English and American prosody, to write the next poem. It is true that Adrienne Rich, Lucille Clifton, and other pioneers were bringing fresh cultural, ethnic, and gender perspectives into what was at the time a practice dominated by white men. And there was "language" poetry, which came packed with its own political theory and ambitions for wider cultural inclusion. But beyond these exceptions the era of the seventies was more romantic than classical, and the brief lyric issuing from a definable self was clearly the dominant and ascendant mode.
> 
> Everything changes. Today young poets have the speed and reach of the Internet at their fingertips. This, coupled with a postmodernnist worldview that inherently distrusts the notion of a stable self, has made for an innovative and decentered poetry that allows for a sometimes bewildering range of voices, tones, rhetorical sets, "nonpoetic" disciplines and obsessions, jargons, and exotic, un-"poetic" bodies of knowledge, to be incorporated into the work. It has resulted in a restructuring of what we mean when we say poetry. It has made for an amazing variety of poetries.
> --Jeffrey Skinner
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
> 
> Home Page:
> http://web.me.com/drjazz
> 
> Poetry Library:
> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> ==========================================
> 
>  _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From jforjames at aol.com  Mon Mar 12 11:07:09 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 11:07:09 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
In-Reply-To: <89A86A1B-1939-4809-8ACF-33B67AC9E108@mikesnider.org>
References: <CB7E2F8E.7917%GrahamD@ripon.edu><8CECC6E4101A208-100C-3F7C@webmail-d139.sysops.aol.com>
	<89A86A1B-1939-4809-8ACF-33B67AC9E108@mikesnider.org>
Message-ID: <8CECE78EDCBEC61-109C-5EC7@webmail-d153.sysops.aol.com>

Mike, I was there after that...from about 1990 to 1993 I ran a specialty insurance agency based in downtown Louisville. 


I was actually an early board member for Sarabande Books, which was founded be Sarah Gorham (poet and wife of Jeff Skinner). 


In Louisville I also met Alan Golding (who lurks on this list) while living in Louisville...he teaches at U of L. After meeting Alan I can remember thinking that I needed to read a whole different universe of poets if I was going to know what contemporary poetry was all about.

Great town...lots of arts, music, theatre...energy. 
Finnegan


-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Snider <newpoetry at mikesnider.org>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Mon, Mar 12, 2012 10:44 am
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry


 When were you in Louisville, James? I was born there,  worked at General Electric's Appliance Park in the late 70s, then went to grad school at U of L in English, teaching freshman comp and creative writing for a fair part of the 80s. Started writing telecom software after that.

www.mikesnider.org

On Mar 9, 2012, at 19:45, jforjames at aol.com wrote:




Thanks for posting this, David. I know Jeff Skinner from Louisville years. There's a large excerpt from the book
at the Sarabande site...
http://www.sarabandebooks.org/?page_id=6476
Good stuff...Different from the usual 'writing life' material.
Finnegan


-----Original Message-----
From: David Graham <GrahamD at ripon.edu>
To: NewPoetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thu, Mar 8, 2012 2:21 pm
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry


The prose feature up now on Poetry Daily is from a book I just started reading by Jeffrey Skinner:  The 6.5 Practices of Moderately Successful Poets: A Self-Help Memoir.  So far, I?m finding it a very entertaining and wise volume.  And possibly the best title of the year.

http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_skinner.php

Here?s a snippet from the chapter posted on PD, titled ?O, Research?:

When I was forming myself (and being formed) as a poet in my twenties, the fields of science and poetry had amicably separated. It is difficult to imagine Strand or Merwin, as learned and urbane as they were, laboring to insinuate the latest discoveries in physics or cosmology into their pared-down, stone and bone, deep-image poems. And it is equally hard to imagine that Robert Creeley or Alan Dugan sat down with much more than their own minds, which lucky for them included encyclopedic knowledge of English and American prosody, to write the next poem. It is true that Adrienne Rich, Lucille Clifton, and other pioneers were bringing fresh cultural, ethnic, and gender perspectives into what was at the time a practice dominated by white men. And there was "language" poetry, which came packed with its own political theory and ambitions for wider cultural inclusion. But beyond these exceptions the era of the seventies was more romantic than classical, and the brief lyric issuing from a definable self was clearly the dominant and ascendant mode.

Everything changes. Today young poets have the speed and reach of the Internet at their fingertips. This, coupled with a postmodernnist worldview that inherently distrusts the notion of a stable self, has made for an innovative and decentered poetry that allows for a sometimes bewildering range of voices, tones, rhetorical sets, "nonpoetic" disciplines and obsessions, jargons, and exotic, un-"poetic" bodies of knowledge, to be incorporated into the work. It has resulted in a restructuring of what we mean when we say poetry. It has made for an amazing variety of poetries.
--Jeffrey Skinner


-- 

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz

Poetry Library:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================


 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

 


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

 

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Mar 12 12:05:39 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 12:05:39 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Spam in Robin's Name?
In-Reply-To: <776b6ccfad24245fdcf56147c14237ec.squirrel@webmail4.web.com>
References: <776b6ccfad24245fdcf56147c14237ec.squirrel@webmail4.web.com>
Message-ID: <3D3ADE312350441CABF843BA54354501@BobHP>

I just got an e.mail purported to be from Robin Hamilton but sounding 
nothing like him.  It went out to several in New-Poetry besides me.  Robin 
has been so inactive since I switched computers last year that I haven't his 
e.mail address on my new one.  I hope someone who does have it lets him 
known about this e.mail.  It's from "gametest11": "Hey there!  lately ive 
been so frustrated I took my chances with this I knew that it was time to 
try something new.  its crazy how the tables have turned you should consider 
trying it...   see you."  I'm deleting it.

--Bob 




From halvard at gmail.com  Mon Mar 12 15:39:20 2012
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 13:39:20 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Listening 2
Message-ID: <CANrCfqHG6bRBe-B76NVWdZo16uKNp9t7h9wexY_WCi-0Asiutw@mail.gmail.com>

Listening 2: J.S. Bach, WTC, Bk. 1 (Till Fellner)


Serving the tri-state area.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com

On Barcelona <http://onbarcelona.blogspot.com/> (submissions sought; email
to my address above)
Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
Remains To Be Seen <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>*, Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. II) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>,** Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. III) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Sonnets
from the Basque & Other Poems <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>
*, *Mainly Black <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Obras
P?blicas <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **The Perfection
of Mozart's Third Eye and Other
Sonnets<http://www.scribd.com/doc/27039868/Halvard-Johnson-THE-PERFECTION-OF-MOZART-S-THIRD-EYE-Other-Sonnets>
; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of
Clones<http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Entrance-Clones-Halvard-Johnson/dp/0965404390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283182804&sr=8-1>
; **Tango Bouquet <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **Theory
of Harmony<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall04/theory1.pdf>
; **Rapsodie espagnole<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/rapsodi.pdf>
; **Guide to the Tokyo
Subway<http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Tokyo-Subway-Other-Poems/dp/0971487316/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283183153&sr=1-3>
; **The Sonnet Project<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/hsonnet.pdf>
; **G(e)nome <http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall03/genome.pdf>; **Winter
Journey <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.winter.html>;
**Eclipse<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.eclipse.html>
; **The Dance of the Red Swan <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.dance.html>
; **Transparencies & Projections<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.transp.html>
*
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 12 18:27:19 2012
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Mon, 12 Mar 2012 15:27:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] PEN Round-up + Poetry Project + Monstrosities of the
	Midway (Call for Work)
Message-ID: <1331591239.85024.YahooMailNeo@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

What Poets WriteMarch 9, 2012 |?Ana Bo?i?evi? and Amy King
A roundup of poetry-related news compiled by guest editors?Ana Bo?i?evi? and?Amy King.
http://www.pen.org/blog/?p=9646#more-9646?

~~~~~~~~~~

Wed., March 14, 2012, 8:00PM?
The Poetry Project
Bruce Covey + Amy King

Bruce Covey?s fifth book of poetry, Reveal, will be published by Bitter Cherry Books at the beginning of 2012; his next-most-recent titles are Glass Is Really a Liquid (No Tell Books, 2010) and Elapsing Speedway Organism (No Tell, 2006). He lives in Atlanta, GA, where he edits Coconut Poetry, teaches at Emory University, and curates the What?s New in Poetry Reading Series. His work has appeared in Best of the Net 2006, Online Writing: The Best of the First Ten Years, The Holiday Album (selected by Elaine Equi), and Wingbeats: Exercises and Practice in Poetry, along with many other anthologies and journals.

Amy King?s recent books are I Want to Make You Safe (Litmus Press 2011) and Slaves to Do These Things (Blazevox 2009). King teaches English and Creative Writing at SUNY Nassau Community College, is currently preparing a book of interviews with the poet, Ron Padgett, and co-edits Esque Magazine with Ana Bozicevic. She also conducts interviews for ?VIDA: Women in Literary Arts.??



The Poetry Project
at St. Marks Church
131 E. 10th Street
New York NY 10003
212-674-0910?



~~~~~~~~~~?


MONSTROSITIES OF THE MIDWAY: Literary Contest

Step right up! We want to see mysteries, anomalies, and clashing energies. Bring your giant rats, conjoined twins, Fiji mermaids, and bearded ladies. We invite any writing that complicates issues of performance and identity. Real and unreal. Exposed and concealed.

Submit: March 5th - May 31st

Fee: $15 per entry

Prize: $1000 + publication in Midway Journal for a winning poem (or group of poems), story, or essay.

Judges: Ana Bo?i?evi? and Amy King

More info here:?http://www.midwayjournal.com/Contest.html?



~~~~~~~~~~
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Tue Mar 13 17:00:22 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:00:22 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birds nests
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyTtPdg+HkrWiO=WmCGnqbkW7wUAeAMn3_66isZFouK_EA@mail.gmail.com>

*Found on Facebook:

bird's nests and eggs - a set on
Flickr<http://www.flickr.com/photos/planetcitizen/sets/72157604732862637/>
*
www.flickr.com
My homage to the amazing avian builders. Photographed for my book, Nests:
Fifty Nests and the Birds that Built Them. Chronicle Books, April 2011 The
nests were photographed in three science collections: The California
Academy of Sciences, The Western Foundation of Vertebrate Zoology, and The
Museu...


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From sheilafblack at hotmail.com  Tue Mar 13 17:21:13 2012
From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 21:21:13 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birds nests
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsyTtPdg+HkrWiO=WmCGnqbkW7wUAeAMn3_66isZFouK_EA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9UsyTtPdg+HkrWiO=WmCGnqbkW7wUAeAMn3_66isZFouK_EA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <SNT135-W1531C7114FEB9FAE8E8BDBD4580@phx.gbl>


Anny:

This is so amazing and wonderful.  Thank you very much for posting it. 

Best,

Sheila

Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:00:22 +0100
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birds nests

Found on Facebook:

bird's nests and eggs  - a set on Flickr 
www.flickr.comMy
 homage to the amazing avian builders. Photographed for my book, Nests: 
Fifty Nests and the Birds that Built Them. Chronicle Books, April  2011 
 The nests were photographed in three science collections: The 
California Academy of Sciences, The Western Foundation of Vertebrate 
Zoology, and The Museu...
-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome

http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 

Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 		 	   		  
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From ciccariello at gmail.com  Tue Mar 13 17:29:12 2012
From: ciccariello at gmail.com (Peter Ciccariello)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 17:29:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birds nests
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsyTtPdg+HkrWiO=WmCGnqbkW7wUAeAMn3_66isZFouK_EA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9UsyTtPdg+HkrWiO=WmCGnqbkW7wUAeAMn3_66isZFouK_EA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <A72C53E1-6ABF-4443-A87C-D1CAE4AB33E5@gmail.com>

Stunning!

Sent from my iPhone

On Mar 13, 2012, at 5:00 PM, Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote:

> Found on Facebook:
> 
> bird's nests and eggs - a set on Flickr
> www.flickr.com
> My homage to the amazing avian builders. Photographed for my book, Nests: Fifty Nests and the Birds that Built Them. Chronicle Books, April 2011 The nests were photographed in three science collections: The California Academy of Sciences, The Western Foundation of Vertebrate Zoology, and The Museu...
> 
> 
> -- 
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
> Friedrich Nietzsche
> 
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Mar 13 21:18:14 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 21:18:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birds nests
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsyTtPdg+HkrWiO=WmCGnqbkW7wUAeAMn3_66isZFouK_EA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9UsyTtPdg+HkrWiO=WmCGnqbkW7wUAeAMn3_66isZFouK_EA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CECF9776629E76-8FC-875@webmail-d131.sysops.aol.com>




Beautiful, Anny. I was lucky enuf to be in Puerto Rico for a few days last week and we visited El Yunque rainforest. One of the first glimpses of wildlife we encountered was a hanging bird's nest being diligently built by a striped head tanager.


Of course we heard (but never saw) the couqui (tree frog) too.

You know Bachelard devotes a great deal of his "Poetics of Space" to the notion/concept of nest.



Jim Finnegan
860-508-2810



-----Original Message-----
From: Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tue, Mar 13, 2012 5:00 pm
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birds nests



Found on Facebook:

bird's nests and eggs  - a set on Flickr 
www.flickr.com
My homage to the amazing avian builders. Photographed for my book, Nests: Fifty Nests and the Birds that Built Them. Chronicle Books, April  2011  The nests were photographed in three science collections: The California Academy of Sciences, The Western Foundation of Vertebrate Zoology, and The Museu...


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale


 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

 
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From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Mar 13 22:34:55 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:34:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Jack Gilbert's collected
Message-ID: <8CECFA22D25F70E-2580-3F65@webmail-m165.sysops.aol.com>


A fair, if not affectionate, review...
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/14/books/collected-poems-by-jack-gilbert.htm


Three "most important books of decade" I would have said. (But that's me.)






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From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Mar 13 22:54:10 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 13 Mar 2012 22:54:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] following the Strand
Message-ID: <8CECFA4DDBD3C47-2580-4156@webmail-m165.sysops.aol.com>


http://hereandnow.wbur.org/2012/03/13/mark-strand-invisible


Mark Strand is now writing a memoir about his parents. It sounds like a fascinating story, as Strand told it to us:


?Everything I grew up knowing about my father was false. He spent most of his life concealing the fact that he spent time in San Quentin Penitentiary for grand theft before he met my mother. My mother never knew. I grew up hearing amazing stories of his exploits, wonderfully outrageous inventions. He said his mother died giving birth to him, which she didn?t. I think my father?s ability to fantasize and create a fiction of his life may have been the seeds of what I became.?

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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 01:06:47 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 06:06:47 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birds nests
In-Reply-To: <8CECF9776629E76-8FC-875@webmail-d131.sysops.aol.com>
References: <CA+9UsyTtPdg+HkrWiO=WmCGnqbkW7wUAeAMn3_66isZFouK_EA@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CECF9776629E76-8FC-875@webmail-d131.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyR6X+yfCmQ6kUfT9BGnR7mh+P0NSwmiQ-V0hSZRZOsPug@mail.gmail.com>

I'm just back from Bournemouth, England with a bunch of students, if you
can access Facebook, here are some pics:
http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150727568346605.458164.512151604&type=1

I should have that Bachelard somewhere and dust it...

On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 2:18 AM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:

>
>  Beautiful, Anny. I was lucky enuf to be in Puerto Rico for a few days
> last week and we visited El Yunque rainforest. One of the first glimpses of
> wildlife we encountered was a hanging bird's nest being diligently built by
> a striped head tanager.
>
>  Of course we heard (but never saw) the couqui (tree frog) too.
>
> You know Bachelard devotes a great deal of his "Poetics of Space" to the
> notion/concept of nest.
>
>
>  Jim Finnegan
> 860-508-2810
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views <
> new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Tue, Mar 13, 2012 5:00 pm
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Birds nests
>
>  *Found on Facebook:
>
> bird's nests and eggs - a set on Flickr<http://www.flickr.com/photos/planetcitizen/sets/72157604732862637/>
> *
> www.flickr.com
> My homage to the amazing avian builders. Photographed for my book, Nests:
> Fifty Nests and the Birds that Built Them. Chronicle Books, April 2011 The
> nests were photographed in three science collections: The California
> Academy of Sciences, The Western Foundation of Vertebrate Zoology, and The
> Museu...
>
>
> --
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
>  _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From semanticsblack at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 14 09:28:27 2012
From: semanticsblack at yahoo.com (sheila black)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 06:28:27 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birds nests
In-Reply-To: <8CECF9776629E76-8FC-875@webmail-d131.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <1331731707.51247.YahooMailClassic@web181403.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Thank you, Annie, for these wonderful photos. All the different shapes and forms remind me of poems--some a little experimental, some very structured--a visual feast (no pun intended).? 

Sheila e. Black? 

?Sheila Black 

--- On Tue, 3/13/12, jforjames at aol.com <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:

From: jforjames at aol.com <jforjames at aol.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Birds nests
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Date: Tuesday, March 13, 2012, 8:18 PM





Beautiful, Anny. I was lucky enuf to be in Puerto Rico for a few days last week and we visited El Yunque rainforest. One of the first glimpses of wildlife we encountered was a hanging bird's nest being diligently built by a striped head tanager.




Of course we heard (but never saw) the couqui (tree frog) too.



You know Bachelard devotes a great deal of his "Poetics of Space" to the notion/concept of nest.







Jim Finnegan


860-508-2810






-----Original Message-----

From: Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>

To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>

Sent: Tue, Mar 13, 2012 5:00 pm

Subject: [New-Poetry] Birds nests














Found on Facebook:



bird's nests and eggs  - a set on Flickr 

www.flickr.com
My
 homage to the amazing avian builders. Photographed for my book, Nests: 
Fifty Nests and the Birds that Built Them. Chronicle Books, April  2011 
 The nests were photographed in three science collections: The 
California Academy of Sciences, The Western Foundation of Vertebrate 
Zoology, and The Museu...




-- 

Anny Ballardini

http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/

http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome


http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078

http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html

I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 


Friedrich Nietzsche



? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique

vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?

Giovenale






 




_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


 






-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 14 13:30:19 2012
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 10:30:19 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Cave Canem Loft -- Thursday, 29 March 2012  @ 7 PM
Message-ID: <1331746219.40713.YahooMailNeo@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Celebrate the launch of Cave Canem fellow Opal Palmer Adisa's latest collection, Painting Away Regrets (Peepal Tree Press), in a rare New York appearance. Alice Walker has described her work as ?solid, visceral, important stories written with integrity and love.? Joining her will be Cave Canem fellows R. Erica Doyle and Dareel Alejandro Holnes and special guest, Jacqueline Bishop. Book signing & reception to follow.?


Place: Cave Canem Loft, 20 Jay Street, Suite 310-A, Brooklyn, NY
Date: ?Thursday, 29 March 2012
Time: 7:00 PM

$5-10 suggested donation. Wheelchair accessible.

Hosted by LaTasha N. Nevada Diggs and Metta S?ma


Bios:

An award-winning poet and prose writer OPAL PALMER ADISA has fourteen titles to her credit, which includes It Begins With Tears (1997), Caribbean Erotic and I Name Me Name (Peepal Tree Press). She has been a resident artist in internationally acclaimed residencies such as El Gounda (Egypt), Sacatar Institute (Brazil) and Tryon Center, (North Carolina) and Headlines Center for the Arts (California, USA). Opal Palmer Adisa?s work has been reviewed by Ishmael Reed, Al Young, and Alice Walker (Color Purple), who described her work as ?solid, visceral, important stories written with integrity and love.? Following in the tradition of the African "griot" Opal Palmer Adisa, an accomplished storyteller, commands the mastery and extraordinary talent of storytelling, exemplary of her predecessors. Through her imaginative characterizations of people, places and things, she is able to transport her listeners to the very wonderlands she creates.

The River's Song is JACQUELINE BISHOP?s first novel. She is also the author of two collections of poems, Fauna and Snapshots from Istanbul. Her non-fiction books are My Mother Who Is Me: Life Stories from Jamaican Women in New York and Writers Who Paint/Painters Who Write: Three Jamaican Artists. An accomplished visual artist with exhibitions in Belgium, Morocco, USA and Italy, Ms. Bishop was a 2008-2009 Fulbright Fellow to Morocco; the 2009-2010 UNESCO/Fulbright Fellow; and is a full time Master Teacher in the Liberal Studies Program at New York University.

R. ERICA DOYLE?s work has appeared in Best American Poetry, Best Black Women?s Erotica, Our Caribbean: A Gathering of Gay and Lesbian Writing from the Antilles, among others. She has received grants from the Hurston/Wright Foundation, the Astraea Lesbian Writers Fund. She was a New York Foundation for the Arts Poetry Fellow and a fellow of Cave Canem. Her debut poetry collection, proxy, is forthcoming from Belladonna* Books in 2013.?

DARREL ALEJANDRO HOLNES is a poet, performer, and playwright. His work has been featured in TIME Magazine, The Caribbean Writer, and the Best American Poetry blog. He has a degree in creative writing from the University of Michigan. He is the recipient of the Bread Loaf Writers Conference scholarship and is a Cave Canem fellow. More information about his performance work with Preston Witt can be found at?darrelandpreston.com.--?

God, make me so uncomfortable that I will do the very thing I fear. -Ruby Dee
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 14 13:32:02 2012
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 10:32:02 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] OT: 2012 Chapbook Festival: March 28-30 - register for
	free workshops NOW!
Message-ID: <1331746322.29723.YahooMailNeo@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------

From:?Ana Bozicevic?<abozicevic at gc.cuny.edu>
Date: Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 11:45 AM
Subject: [POETRY-L] 2012 Chapbook Festival: March 28-30 - register for free workshops NOW!
To: POETRY-l at gc.listserv.cuny.edu



Dear friends, we are excited about the upcoming Chapbook Festival. It's big! It's FREE! But you must register for the workshops now, because they are first come, first serve.
www.chapbookfestival.org
Wed / Fri, Mar 28-30, 2012
The Festival is free and open to the public, though some events require advance registration, as indicated below.
View and download the poster!
Wed, Mar 28
at the Center for Book Arts
28 West 27th Street, NYC
10am-1pm and 2-5pm
Hands-on Chapbook Workshops: Binding and Printing
With Susan Mills and Karen Randall
Registration required:?212 481-0295
6:30pm
Panel Discussion: Community and Publishing
MC Hyland, Minnesota Center for Book Arts
Guy Pettit, Flying Object
Chuck Stebelton, Woodland Pattern
Thu, Mar 29
at The Graduate Center, CUNY
365 Fifth Avenue at 34th Street, NYC
Noon-7pm
Book Fair: Day 1
C Level
Featuring:
Agnes Fox, Argos Books, Augury Books, Belladonna*, Berl?s Brooklyn Poetry Shop, Birds of Lace, Binge Press, Bridge Journal, Brooklyn Arts Press, Chax Press, Cy Gist Press, Deadly Chaps Press, DoubleCross Press, Drunken Boat, Dusie Kollektiv, EOAGH, Epiphany, Flying Guillotine Press, Factory Hollow Press, Forklift, Ohio, Greying Ghost Press, H_NGM_N, Hyacinth Girl Press, Immaculate Disciples Press, Instance Press, Least Weasel @ Propolis Press, Magic Helicopter Books, Minutes Books, Monk Books, NOEMI, Pen Press, Pilot Books, Poets Wear Prada, Portable Press at Yo-Yo Labs, Publishing Genius, Projective Industries, Slapering Hol Press, Small Fires Press, Summer BF, The Corresponding Society, The Physiocrats, Toadlily Press, Traficker, Ugly Duckling Presse, X-ing Press/Agriculture Reader
12?3pm
C Level
Lunch Poems?marathon poetry reading
curated by:
Stain of Poetry, EOAGH, Earshot, Triptych, Popsickle, PeopleHerd Readings at Milk&Roses
3pm
C Level
Workshop: Nuts and Bolts for Publishers
Ryan Murphy, Reservoir Editions
Iris Cushing and Elizabeth Clark Wessel, Argos Books
Organized by Poetry Society of America
Free registration required for all workshops.
To register, e-mail?ksullivan at gc.cuny.edu.
5pm
C Level
Workshop: Digital Chapbooks
Adam Robinson, Publishing Genius
Martin Rock, Epiphany
Lucy Ives, Triple Canopy
Organized by the CUNY MFA Affiliation Group
Free registration required for all workshops.
To register, e-mail?ksullivan at gc.cuny.edu.
7pm
Martin E. Segal Theatre
Panel Discussion: Translation & Alternative Publishing
Ammiel Alcalay, The Graduate Center, CUNY
Esther Allen, Baruch College
Anna Moschovakis, Ugly Duckling Presse
Damir ?odan and Ivan Herceg, POEZIJA Magazine, Croatia
Organized by The Center for the Humanities
Fri, Mar 30
at The Graduate Center, CUNY
365 Fifth Avenue at 34th Street, NYC
Noon-7pm
Book Fair: Day 2
C Level
See above for featured publishers
12?3pm
C Level
Lunch Poems?marathon poetry reading
curated by:
Stain of Poetry, EOAGH, Earshot, Triptych, Popsickle, PeopleHerd Readings at Milk&Roses
3pm
C Level
Workshop: Nuts and Bolts for Writers
Jean Hartig, Poets & Writers Magazine
Cara Benson, Dusie Kollektiv and Belladonna*
Nathaniel Otting, minutes BOOKS and Agnes Fox
Nate Pritts, H_NGM_N BKS
Organized by Poets & Writers
Free registration required for all workshops.
To register, e-mail?ksullivan at gc.cuny.edu.
5pm
C Level
Workshop: Chapbooks Saved My Life
Brian Teare, Albion Books
Organized by Poets House
Free registration required for all workshops.
To register, e-mail?ksullivan at gc.cuny.edu.
7pm
Proshansky Auditorium and Lobby
Reading: PSA Chapbook Fellowship
Sarah Arvio, Timothy Donnelly, EJ Garcia, Deborah Landau, David Lehman, Marni Ludwig, Alison Roh Park, Gerald Stern, and Angela Veronica Wong
Introduced by Alice Quinn
Reception to follow
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 14 13:33:29 2012
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 10:33:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Reminder:   TONIGHT --  Poetry Project  @ 8 p.m.
In-Reply-To: <CALVxuQCxjgO6MC5Fu8hJio0UByqTbi6WW8-o3FHvpxGm=F08Fw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CALVxuQCxjgO6MC5Fu8hJio0UByqTbi6WW8-o3FHvpxGm=F08Fw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1331746409.48217.YahooMailNeo@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Wed., March 14, 2012 @ ?8:00PM?

The Poetry Project
Bruce Covey + Amy King

Bruce Covey?s fifth book of poetry, Reveal, will be published by Bitter Cherry Books at the beginning of 2012; his next-most-recent titles are Glass Is Really a Liquid (No Tell Books, 2010) and Elapsing Speedway Organism (No Tell, 2006). He lives in Atlanta, GA, where he edits Coconut Poetry, teaches at Emory University, and curates the What?s New in Poetry Reading Series. His work has appeared in Best of the Net 2006, Online Writing: The Best of the First Ten Years, The Holiday Album (selected by Elaine Equi), and Wingbeats: Exercises and Practice in Poetry, along with many other anthologies and journals.

Amy King?s recent books are I Want to Make You Safe (Litmus Press 2011) and Slaves to Do These Things (Blazevox 2009). King teaches English and Creative Writing at SUNY Nassau Community College, is currently preparing a book of interviews with the poet, Ron Padgett, and co-edits Esque Magazine with Ana Bozicevic. She also conducts interviews for ?VIDA: Women in Literary Arts.??



The Poetry Project
at St. Marks Church
131 E. 10th Street
New York NY 10003
212-674-0910?
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From carol.dorf at gmail.com  Wed Mar 14 14:07:36 2012
From: carol.dorf at gmail.com (carol dorf)
Date: Wed, 14 Mar 2012 11:07:36 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Birds nests
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsyTtPdg+HkrWiO=WmCGnqbkW7wUAeAMn3_66isZFouK_EA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9UsyTtPdg+HkrWiO=WmCGnqbkW7wUAeAMn3_66isZFouK_EA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABVBwJDLq5TZUtjN6y_Tg8iDJf6JUYnVW9zK9FdGyW17iwFH=g@mail.gmail.com>

Wonderful photographs, Anny.


On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 2:00 PM, Anny Ballardini
<anny.ballardini at gmail.com>wrote:

> *Found on Facebook:
>
> bird's nests and eggs - a set on Flickr<http://www.flickr.com/photos/planetcitizen/sets/72157604732862637/>
> *
> www.flickr.com
> My homage to the amazing avian builders. Photographed for my book, Nests:
> Fifty Nests and the Birds that Built Them. Chronicle Books, April 2011 The
> nests were photographed in three science collections: The California
> Academy of Sciences, The Western Foundation of Vertebrate Zoology, and The
> Museu...
>
>
> --
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Carol Dorf
talkingwriting.com
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Thu Mar 15 03:02:59 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 08:02:59 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Marc Vincenz's Pull of Gravitation
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyRfReEx50ztKpvwBQRyK-2Gu8FnEYjuWK81Ee-NH67Q9A@mail.gmail.com>

https://sites.google.com/site/marcvincenzchapbook/home



-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 15 18:34:32 2012
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 15:34:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] OT: Call for Papers: Edited Collection: Primary Stein
	(Abstracts by May 15, 2012)
Message-ID: <1331850872.21862.YahooMailNeo@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

 
Call
for Papers: Edited Collection: Primary Stein (Abstracts by May 15, 2012)
full name / name of
organization:?
Janet Boyd, Fairleigh
Dickinson University and Sharon Kirsch, Arizona State University
contact email:?boydj at fdu.eduand Sharon.Kirsch at asu.edu
Abstracts due: May 15, 2012
(500-700 words with CV and short bio)
?
The overwhelming
success of Gertrude Stein?s The
Autobiography of Alice B. Toklas finally confirmed Stein?s celebrity status
in the United States in 1933. Yet she lamented that she had become known less
as an important author than as the host of a Parisian salon in which famous writers
and European painters gathered amidst her collection of modern art. Her earlier,
more challenging writing continued to go unnoticed and unpublished despite the
wide public appeal of the autobiography and the success of Virgil Thomson?s
production of Stein?s opera Four Saints
in Three Acts in 1934. Her growing popularity in the United States induced
the reluctant Stein
to return for a lecture tour through which she would introduce her more obscure
work to an American audience?even if it meant having to explain it to them. As she tells us, she ?want[ed] readers not collectors. . . she
want[ed] her books read not owned? (Autobiography 301).
?
Even so, few scholars took serious interest in Stein
before the mid-twentieth century, and, even then, the criticism that emerged
tended to make Stein herself the main subject. In the later 1970s and
throughout the 1980s, Stein?s writing began to receive attention from a variety
of scholars: those who sought to align her literary aims with the Cubist painters;
feminists who read her work as a challenge to patriarchal language; and critics
who examined Stein?s writing as a more general subversion of the process of
signification. In the 1990s, Stein criticism turned its focus to how her
writing engages issues of American national and/or cultural identity. As Lisa
Ruddick observes, ?work in a cultural studies mode. . . moved the conversation
about Stein?s artistic innovations beyond a sense of her offering a challenge
to patriarchy in the abstract? and into ?larger cultural fields?fields defined
by discourses of race and ethnicity? (Modern
Fiction Studies 648). ??
?
Most recently, Stein
the celebrity has re-emerged. Her life has again become the focus of scholarly
inquiry in articles, books and exhibits: Stein?s politics, Stein?s friendships,
Stein the collector, and Stein the visual icon. Popular interest
in Stein has of late generated The Steins
Collect museum exhibit, a children?s book celebrating her writing, a novel
told from the perspective of Stein and Toklas?s Vietnamese cook, and Stein as a
character in the Woody Allen film Midnight
in Paris. In addition, Seeing
Gertrude Stein, the companion book to the current exhibit of the same name,
creates a cultural and visual portrait of Stein, rendering ?a richly complex
woman? whose ?contradictions ran deep? (7). No doubt, these recent
examinations enrich and complicate our understanding of Stein and of how we
might read her work, as she implores
us to do. 
?
Here, in
response to these current trends, we seek to assemble a collection of essays that
turns the lens back on Stein?s writing, in and across all genres in which she
wrote. We are interested in scholarly essays that take Stein?s primary works as
their core analytical focus. We do not suggest jettisoning contextual
approaches, but we do encourage inquiry into the writing itself, in all its
historical trajectories and discursive iterations. Essays might ask what it is
we learn from the tensions produced in Stein?s work in order to expand fields
of inquiry and transform the ways we can read, write about, and teach her writing.
?
The editors are pleased to
report that this project has already received attention from a scholarly press. Please send abstracts of 500-700 words (final essays to range
from 4,000-8,000 words), brief bios, and CVs to Janet Boyd (boydj at fdu.edu) and/or
Sharon Kirsch (Sharon.Kirsch at asu.edu) by May 15,
2012. Queries are welcomed.
Possible topics (others are welcome):
Genre
studies
Rhetoric
Linguistics
Formalism
Poetry
Drama/plays
Autobiography 
Travel
writing 
War
narrative
Racial
theory/identity
Queer
theory
Gender/sexuality
Spatiality/temporality
Geography/landscape
National/ethnic identity
Political
discourse
Post-colonialism
Advertising/public
relations
Celebrity/fame
Humor
Pleasure
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From jforjames at aol.com  Thu Mar 15 19:29:59 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 19:29:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] WorldPo: remembering Canada's Irving Layton
Message-ID: <8CED11AAC6F9FB5-216C-4065@webmail-d179.sysops.aol.com>


Monday, March 12, marks the centenary of the birth of Irving Layton, Canada's fieriest, most pugnacious poet. Major events are being held across the country to celebrate the occasion, including in Montreal Sunday, when local poets will read from his work.


Layton was born in Romania and immigrated with his family to Montreal in 1913 when he was still an infant. He grew up impoverished in the Jewish neighbourhood around St. Urbain St., which he immortalized in such early poems as Jewish Main Street: "In this ghetto estuary / Women with offspring appraise / The solemn hypocrisies of fish / That gorp on trays of blue tin."


Read more: http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Irving+Layton+poetic+warrior+truth/6281437/story.html#ixzz1pEOOYt8N
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 15 21:43:36 2012
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Thu, 15 Mar 2012 18:43:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] PEN American - Poetry Series
Message-ID: <1331862216.90524.YahooMailNeo@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Metta S?ma: Nocturne Trio

Two beautiful new poems are up and available for your reading pleasure - 

http://www.pen.org/blog/?p=9806#more-9806

Enjoy!

Amy & Ana
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 16 11:05:14 2012
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 08:05:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] PEN American -- Poetry Series + Academy Poem-a-Day +
	Stain of Poetry
Message-ID: <1331910314.74148.YahooMailNeo@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Metta S?ma: Nocturne Trio

Two beautiful new poems are up and available for your reading pleasure @ PEN American? - 

http://www.pen.org/blog/?p=9806#more-9806


~~~~~~


Poem-a-Day

Also,

If you missed my poem, "The Moon in Your Breath," in your inbox today, 

you can still catch it here - http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/22849

Enjoy!


~~~~~~

STAIN OF POETRY presents

Lindsey Boldt /Joanna Penn Cooper  / Steve Orth / J Hope Stein / Tyler Flynn?Dorholt  
7 PM on March 30th @ Goodbye  Blue  Monday ? Bushwick, Brooklyn
withLindsey Boldt is a poet and itinerant culture worker in training. Her first book, Overboard, is forthcoming from Publication Studios.

Joanna Penn Cooper?s creative and critical work has appeared or is 
forthcoming in a number of journals, including Poetry International, 
Opium, Supermachine, Pleiades, elimae, and Boog City.  Her second 
chapbook of poetry and short prose pieces, Mesmer, was published in 
April 2010 by Dancing Girl Press.  Joanna?s full-length poetry 
collection, How We Mostly Were, was a finalist for the Kinereth Gensler 
Award from Alice James Books in December 2010.  Currently working on a 
book of prose poems and essays tentatively titled Vita, Joanna lives in 
Brooklyn and has a blog at joannapenncooper.blogspot.com. 

Tyler Flynn Dorholt?s most recent chapbooks are What I Cannot Recall 
(Greying Ghost) and from Monster: a Glottochronology, with Thomas Cook 
(alice blue). He publishes and curates the film/writing series On the 
Escape (www.ontheescape.com) and is co-editor of the print journal Tim 
(n?e, Tammy ?www.thetjournal.com).He lives in Manhattan, where he works 
for a communications firm and is the Managing Consultant of The A.N.D 
Project (www.theandproject.com).

Steve Orth lives in Oakland, CA where he writes poems and poem-like 
things. He publishes the magazine ?Where Eagles Dare?. With Lindsey 
Boldt, he runs Summer BF Press. He?s puts out his own chapbooks & 
the next will most likely be ?Slur The Point?.

J. Hope Stein is the author of the chapbooks [Talking Doll]:  (Dancing 
Girl Press),  Corner Office (H_NGM_N BKS) and [Mary]:  (Hyacinth Girl 
Press).   Her full length manuscript The Inventor?s Last Breath was a 
finalist in the Alice James Books 2011 Kinereth Awards and her chapbook 
Light?s Golden Jubilee was a finalist in the 2011 Ahsahta Chapbook 
Contest.  J. Hope Stein is also the author of poetry/humor site 
eecattings.com, editor of poetrycrush.com. Her short film, The 
Inventor?s Last Breath, based on her full-length manuscript about Thomas Edison, was screened at the 2011 Cinepoetry Festival at the Henry 
Miller Library in Big Sur and will be screened in several venues in 
2012.


at
Goodbye  Blue  Monday
1087  Broadway
(corner of Dodworth St)
Brooklyn, NY 11221-3013(718) 453-6343
J M Z  trains to Myrtle Ave
or J train to Kosciusko St

Hosted by Erika Moya + Christie Ann Reynolds

~~~~~~~
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Fri Mar 16 14:34:07 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 19:34:07 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] An Issue
Message-ID: <CA+9UsySGNtS2qLdGsvqrnJ2ujJ76spudM1mM3OoqK=TU2X0Tpw@mail.gmail.com>

With 4 poems by Frederick Pollack:

http://issuu.com/conjecturalfigments/docs/conjectural_figments_issue_2 ****

** **



-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Mar 16 17:05:24 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 17:05:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
In-Reply-To: <8CECE78EDCBEC61-109C-5EC7@webmail-d153.sysops.aol.com>
References: <CB7E2F8E.7917%GrahamD@ripon.edu><8CECC6E4101A208-100C-3F7C@webmail-d139.sysops.aol.com><89A86A1B-1939-4809-8ACF-33B6
	7AC9E108@mikesnider.org>
	<8CECE78EDCBEC61-109C-5EC7@webmail-d153.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8F0758219C894408A4277FDFEE84EE33@BobHP>

I?m reviewing the magazine.  When I came across the following poem, I didn?t know who wrote it.  I found it at first a bit bland but not bad.  Then I gradually came to like it quite a bit.  I?m bothering to post it because I was shocked when I found out whose it was.  How could I like it?  But I like many conventional poems, and this one, from the very middle of Wilshberia, seems winningly a spin off from one of my favoritest poets, Roethke, with a bit of James Wright, whom I also like quite a bit.  It seems to me ordinary in just about every way a poem can be, but effectively so.  Ordinary diction, theme and point of view, imagery, free verse form?but, as I say, it worked for me.  Its almost unnoticeable ascent into the archetypal?  The mood I was in?  I suppose mainly simply a nearly perfect knowledge of how to make poems like this.  I?ll reveal the author if I have to?that is, if no one else does.

Hum, Hum 
1. 

One summer afternoon I heard 
a looming, mysterious hum 

high in the air; then came something 

like a small planet flying past- 
something 

not at all interested in me but on its own 

way somewhere, all anointed with excitement: 
bees, swarming, 

not to be held back. 

nothing could hold them back. 

2. 

Gannets diving. 

Black snake wrapped in a tree, our eyes 
meeting 

The grass singing 

as it sipped up the summer rain. 

The owl in the darkness, that good darkness 
under the stars. 

The child that was myself, that kept running away 
to the also running creek, 

To colt's foot and trilliums, 

to the effortless prattle of the birds. 

3. Said the Mother 

You are going to grow up 

and in order for that to happen 
I am going to have to grow old 



and then I will die, and the blame 
will be yours. 

4. Of the Father 

He wanted a body 
So he took mine. 

Some wounds never vanish. 

Yet little by little 

I learned to love my life. 

Though sometimes I had to run hard- 
especially from melancholy- 

not to be held back. 

5. 

I think there ought to be 
a little music here: 

hum, hum. 

6. 

The resurrection of the morning. 
The mystery of the night. 

The hummingbird's wings. 

The excitement of thunder. 

The rainbow in the waterfall. 

Wild mustard, that rough blaze of the fields. 
The mockingbird, replaying the songs of his 

neighbors. 

The bluebird with its unambitious warble, 
simple yet sufficient. 

The shining fish. The beak of the crow. 

The new colt who came to me and leaned 
against the fence 

that I might put my hands upon his warm body 
and know no fear. 

Also the words of poets 

a hundred or hundreds of years dead- 
their words that would not be held back. 

7. 

Oh the house of denial has mighty thick walls 
and very small windows 

and whoever lives there, little by little, 
will turn to stone. 

* 

In those years I did everything I could do 
And I did it in the dark- 

I mean, without understanding. 

I ran away. 

Again I ran away. 
Then, again, I ran away. 

* 

They were awfully little, those bees, 
and maybe frightened, 

yet unstoppably they flew on, somewhere, 
to live their life. 

Hum, hum, hum. 


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From theoldmole at gmail.com  Fri Mar 16 19:27:44 2012
From: theoldmole at gmail.com (Tad Richards)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 19:27:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
In-Reply-To: <8F0758219C894408A4277FDFEE84EE33@BobHP>
References: <CB7E2F8E.7917%GrahamD@ripon.edu>
	<8CECC6E4101A208-100C-3F7C@webmail-d139.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CECE78EDCBEC61-109C-5EC7@webmail-d153.sysops.aol.com>
	<8F0758219C894408A4277FDFEE84EE33@BobHP>
Message-ID: <CAAy7y5QVk=-hPDbm2PA16mTbX5HveOPRbWDz-QNBpA7Fkhbh7w@mail.gmail.com>

I cheated. Mary Oliver. And I immediately assume I'm not going to like any
poem that begins "One summer afternoon I heard," but I read on, and you're
right. It has something. I liked it. I didn't even mind (much)the
obligatory abuse stanza.

On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 5:05 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:

>   I?m reviewing the magazine.  When I came across the following poem, I
> didn?t know who wrote it.  I found it at first a bit bland but not bad.
> Then I gradually came to like it quite a bit.  I?m bothering to post it
> because I was shocked when I found out whose it was.  How could I like it?
> But I like many conventional poems, and this one, from the very middle of
> Wilshberia, seems winningly a spin off from one of my favoritest poets,
> Roethke, with a bit of James Wright, whom I also like quite a bit.  It
> seems to me ordinary in just about every way a poem can be, but *effectively
> *so.  Ordinary diction, theme and point of view, imagery, free verse
> form?but, as I say, it worked for me.  Its almost unnoticeable ascent into
> the archetypal?  The mood I was in?  I suppose mainly simply a nearly
> perfect knowledge of how to make poems like this.  I?ll reveal the author
> if I have to?that is, if no one else does.
> **
> *Hum**, **Hum *
>
> 1.
>
> One summer afternoon I heard
> a looming, mysterious hum
>
> high in the air; then came something
>
> like a small planet flying past-
> something
>
> not at all interested in me but on its own
>
> way somewhere, all anointed with excitement:
> bees, swarming,
>
> not to be held back.
>
> nothing could hold them back.
>
> 2.
>
> Gannets diving.
>
> Black snake wrapped in a tree, our eyes
> meeting
>
> The grass singing
>
> as it sipped up the summer rain.
>
> The owl in the darkness, that good darkness
> under the stars.
>
> The child that was myself, that kept running away
> to the also running creek,
>
> To colt's foot and trilliums,
>
> to the effortless prattle of the birds.
>
> 3. Said the Mother
>
> You are going to grow up
>
> and in order for that to happen
> I am going to have to grow old
>
>
>
> and then I will die, and the blame
> will be yours.
>
> 4. Of the Father
>
> He wanted a body
> So he took mine.
>
> Some wounds never vanish.
>
> Yet little by little
>
> I learned to love my life.
>
> Though sometimes I had to run hard-
> especially from melancholy-
>
> not to be held back.
>
> 5.
>
> I think there ought to be
> a little music here:
>
> hum, hum.
>
> 6.
>
> The resurrection of the morning.
> The mystery of the night.
>
> The hummingbird's wings.
>
> The excitement of thunder.
>
> The rainbow in the waterfall.
>
> Wild mustard, that rough blaze of the fields.
> The mockingbird, replaying the songs of his
>
> neighbors.
>
> The bluebird with its* *unambitious warble,
> simple yet sufficient.
>
> The shining fish. The beak of the crow.
>
> The new colt who came to me and leaned
> against the fence
>
> that I might put my hands upon his warm body
> and know no fear.
>
> Also the words of poets
>
> a hundred or hundreds of years dead-
> their words that would not be held back.
>
> 7.
>
> Oh the house of denial has mighty thick walls
> and very small windows
>
> and whoever lives there, little by little,
> will turn to stone.
>
> *
>
> In those years I did everything I could do
> And I did it in the dark-
>
> I mean, without understanding.
>
> I ran away.
>
> Again I ran away.
> Then, again, I ran away.
>
> *
>
> They were awfully little, those bees,
> and maybe frightened,
>
> yet unstoppably they flew on, somewhere,
> to live their life.
>
> Hum, hum, hum.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Mar 16 20:08:48 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Fri, 16 Mar 2012 20:08:48 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
In-Reply-To: <CAAy7y5QVk=-hPDbm2PA16mTbX5HveOPRbWDz-QNBpA7Fkhbh7w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CB7E2F8E.7917%GrahamD@ripon.edu><8CECC6E4101A208-100C-3F7C@webmail-d139.sysops.aol.com><8CECE78EDCBEC61-109C-5EC7@we
	bmail-d153.sysops.aol.com><8F0758219C894408A4277FDFEE84EE33@BobHP>
	<CAAy7y5QVk=-hPDbm2PA16mTbX5HveOPRbWDz-QNBpA7Fkhbh7w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D14FA69C9B2445968504C57BD70639E5@BobHP>


I cheated. Mary Oliver. And I immediately assume I'm not going to like any poem that begins "One summer afternoon I heard," but I read on, and you're right. It has something. I liked it. I didn't even mind (much)the obligatory abuse stanza.  --Tad

Weird, I didn?t even pick up on the abuse stanza.  I?m not sure what I thought it meant.  Just a bit of dark for the celebration to contrast with . . .    I do think now the poem would be much better without it.  
I guess I missed what the stanza clearly said because it?s not in the kind of poems I generally read.  And I was in a Roethke zone, far from that kind of thing.  I don?t retract my my rating of the poem, though.
--Bob 
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sat Mar 17 10:58:55 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 15:58:55 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: New Textile Series Chapbook by California Poet,
	Todd Melicker
In-Reply-To: <4c754e14bb1f3dfdcc9d18b25f5f6ce88cf.20120316153304@mail54.us1.mcsv.net>
References: <4c754e14bb1f3dfdcc9d18b25f5f6ce88cf.20120316153304@mail54.us1.mcsv.net>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyRETuYW33Tu2USv4E7=q-6aea6CaBnAO03=U4p6kk1bPA@mail.gmail.com>

**
     Little Red Leaves Textile Series is so pleased to announce Todd
Melicker's latest chapbook, King & Queen*,* is now on sale! Get your copy
for only $8 + Shipping!
  Is this email not displaying correctly?
View it in your
browser<http://us2.campaign-archive1.com/?u=4c754e14bb1f3dfdcc9d18b25&id=55071ec2e7&e=f5f6ce88cf>.

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Series]<http://textileseries.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=4c754e14bb1f3dfdcc9d18b25&id=7e703377ca&e=f5f6ce88cf>
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Melicker]<http://textileseries.us2.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=4c754e14bb1f3dfdcc9d18b25&id=7d9e3552ca&e=f5f6ce88cf>
*King & Queen
Todd Melicker*
Little Red Leaves is so very pleased to announce (or perhaps crown) our
tenth chapbook: King & Queen by Todd Melicker. A carefully designed
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shuffles two sets of poems in a painstaking engagement with language and
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Townsend]<http://textileseries.us2.list-manage.com/track/click?u=4c754e14bb1f3dfdcc9d18b25&id=987d586fc9&e=f5f6ce88cf>
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$8 Add to Cart<http://textileseries.us2.list-manage1.com/track/click?u=4c754e14bb1f3dfdcc9d18b25&id=8903a465ce&e=f5f6ce88cf>
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 17 14:27:35 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 11:27:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
In-Reply-To: <D14FA69C9B2445968504C57BD70639E5@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1332008855.16509.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Roethke zone ... compared to T Roethke, she may be a second rate poet, Bob, but that would include 99.9 percent of everyone alive. The visual & math poets are lucky. They don't have as many dead in the competition. Their burden is lighter. 

--- On Fri, 3/16/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Friday, March 16, 2012, 8:08 PM







?

I 
cheated. Mary Oliver. And I immediately assume I'm not going to like any poem 
that begins "One summer afternoon 
I heard," but I read on, and you're 
right. It has something. I liked it. I didn't even mind 
(much)the obligatory abuse stanza.? --Tad

Weird, I 
didn?t even pick up on the abuse stanza.? I?m not sure what I thought it 
meant.? Just a bit of dark for the celebration to contrast with . . 
.??? I do think now the poem would be much better without 
it.? 

?

I guess I missed what the stanza clearly said because it?s not in the 
kind of poems I generally read.? And I was in a Roethke zone, far from that 
kind of thing.? I don?t retract my my rating of the poem, 
though.

?

--Bob?

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 17 14:54:10 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 11:54:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
In-Reply-To: <1332008855.16509.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1332010450.15533.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

it's gets interesting, and post ... everything ... when you compare artist/poets of different types ... Roethke is a much better poet than Kenneth Patchen, but if I had to choose between the two, I'd choose Patchen because of his exceptional Journal of Albion Moonlight novel, and his vispos. 

--- On Sat, 3/17/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 17, 2012, 2:27 PM

Roethke zone ... compared to T Roethke, she may be a second rate poet, Bob, but that would include 99.9 percent of everyone alive. The visual & math poets are lucky. They don't have as many dead in the competition. Their burden is lighter. 

--- On Fri, 3/16/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Friday, March 16, 2012, 8:08 PM







?

I 
cheated. Mary Oliver. And I immediately assume I'm not going to like any poem 
that begins "One summer afternoon 
I heard," but I read on, and you're 
right. It has something. I liked it. I didn't even mind 
(much)the obligatory abuse stanza.? --Tad

Weird, I 
didn?t even pick up on the abuse stanza.? I?m not sure what I thought it 
meant.? Just a bit of dark for the celebration to contrast with . . 
.??? I do think now the poem would be much better without 
it.? 

?

I guess I missed what the stanza clearly said because it?s not in the 
kind of poems I generally read.? And I was in a Roethke zone, far from that 
kind of thing.? I don?t retract my my rating of the poem, 
though.

?

--Bob?

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 17 16:08:30 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 13:08:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
In-Reply-To: <1332010450.15533.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1332014910.68773.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

come to think of it, vispo/math poets are pioneers. 
that's probably why the mainstream doesn't recognize them.
the mainstream is slow.

poets outside vispo/math have the burden of competing with poets such as Roethke, or Rilke. 

better strategy. keep it new in the WCW sense. do both. 

--- On Sat, 3/17/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 17, 2012, 2:54 PM

it's gets interesting, and post ... everything ... when you compare artist/poets of different types ... Roethke is a much better poet than Kenneth Patchen, but if I had to choose between the two, I'd choose Patchen because of his exceptional Journal of Albion Moonlight novel, and his vispos. 

--- On Sat, 3/17/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 17, 2012, 2:27 PM

Roethke zone ... compared to T Roethke, she may be a second rate poet, Bob, but that would include 99.9 percent of everyone alive. The visual & math poets are lucky. They don't have as many dead in the competition. Their burden is lighter. 

--- On Fri, 3/16/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Friday, March 16, 2012, 8:08 PM







?

I 
cheated. Mary Oliver. And I immediately assume I'm not going to like any poem 
that begins "One summer afternoon 
I heard," but I read on, and you're 
right. It has something. I liked it. I didn't even mind 
(much)the obligatory abuse stanza.? --Tad

Weird, I 
didn?t even pick up on the abuse stanza.? I?m not sure what I thought it 
meant.? Just a bit of dark for the celebration to contrast with . . 
.??? I do think now the poem would be much better without 
it.? 

?

I guess I missed what the stanza clearly said because it?s not in the 
kind of poems I generally read.? And I was in a Roethke zone, far from that 
kind of thing.? I don?t retract my my rating of the poem, 
though.

?

--Bob?

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 17 16:11:09 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 13:11:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
In-Reply-To: <CAAy7y5QVk=-hPDbm2PA16mTbX5HveOPRbWDz-QNBpA7Fkhbh7w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1332015069.19733.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

this is worthy of Roethke.

it? reads as though it were a modernist rereading of the English Romantics. 
I'm not sure which English Romantic.
But the poem is exceptional.

--- On Fri, 3/16/12, Tad Richards <theoldmole at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Tad Richards <theoldmole at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Friday, March 16, 2012, 7:27 PM

I cheated. Mary Oliver. And I immediately assume I'm not going to like any poem that begins "One summer 
afternoon 
I heard," but I read on, and you're right. It has something. I liked it. I didn't even mind (much)the obligatory abuse stanza.


On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 5:05 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:






I?m 
reviewing the magazine.? When I came across the following poem, I didn?t 
know who wrote it.? I found it at first a bit bland but not bad.? Then 
I gradually came to like it quite a bit.? I?m bothering to post it because 
I was shocked when I found out whose it was.? How could I like it?? 
But I like many conventional poems, and this one, from the very middle of 
Wilshberia, seems winningly a spin off from one of my favoritest poets, Roethke, 
with a bit of James Wright, whom I also like quite a bit.? It seems to me 
ordinary in just about every way a poem can be, but effectively 
so.? Ordinary diction, theme and point of view, imagery, free verse 
form?but, as I say, it worked for me.? Its almost unnoticeable ascent into 
the archetypal?? The mood I was in?? I suppose mainly simply a nearly 
perfect knowledge of how to make poems like this.? I?ll reveal the author 
if I have to?that is, if no one else does.
?
Hum, 
Hum 

1. 
One summer 
afternoon 
I heard 

a 
looming, mysterious hum 

high in the air; then 
came something 

like a small planet flying 
past- 

something 

not at 
all interested in me but on its own 

way somewhere, all anointed with 
excitement: 

bees, 
swarming, 

not to be held back. 

nothing could hold them back. 

2. 

Gannets diving. 

Black snake 
wrapped in a tree, our 
eyes 
meeting 

The grass 
singing 
as it sipped up the summer rain. 

The 
owl in the darkness, 
that good darkness 

under 
the stars. 

The child that was myself, that kept running away 

to 
the also running creek, 

To colt's foot and 
trilliums, 

to the effortless prattle of the birds. 

3. 
Said 
the 
Mother 

You are going to grow 
up 
and in 
order for that to 
happen 

I 
am 
going 
to 
have to grow 
old 
?
and 
then I 
will 
die, and the 
blame 

will be yours. 

4. Of the Father 

He 
wanted a 
body 

So he took 
mine. 

Some 
wounds never 
vanish. 
Yet little 
by little 

I 
learned to love my life. 

Though sometimes I had to run hard- 

especially from melancholy- 

not to be held back. 

5. 

I 
think there ought 
to 
be 
a 
little music here: 

hum, hum. 

6. 

The 
resurrection of the morning. 

The mystery of 
the 
night. 

The 
hummingbird's 
wings. 

The 
excitement of thunder. 

The 
rainbow in the 
waterfall. 

Wild 
mustard, that rough blaze 
of the fields. 

The mockingbird, replaying the songs of his 

neighbors. 

The bluebird with its unambitious warble, 

simple yet sufficient. 

The 
shining fish. The beak of the crow. 

The new colt who came to 
me 
and leaned 

against the 
fence 
that I might put 
my 
hands upon his warm 
body 
and know no 
fear. 
Also the words of poets 

a hundred or hundreds of 
years dead- 

their words 
that would not be held 
back. 
7. 

Oh the house of denial has mighty thick walls 

and very small windows 

and whoever lives there, little 
by 
little, 

will turn to stone. 

* 

In those years I did 
everything I could do 

And I did it in the dark- 

I mean, without understanding. 

I ran 
away. 
Again I ran away. 

Then, 
again, I ran away. 

* 

They were awfully little, those bees, 

and 
maybe frightened, 

yet unstoppably they flew 
on, somewhere, 

to live 
their life. 
Hum, hum, hum. 

?

_______________________________________________

New-Poetry mailing list

New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu

http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Mar 17 18:46:47 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 18:46:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
In-Reply-To: <1332008855.16509.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1332008855.16509.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1087AC2268AE447C9EDEE2E65BD13449@BobHP>

      Roethke zone ... compared to T Roethke, she may be a second rate poet, Bob, but that would include 99.9 percent of everyone alive. The visual & math poets are lucky. They don't have as many dead in the competition. Their burden is lighter.
        
      From one point of view, that?s correct; from another, we have double the competition from dead artists?the dead poets and the dead painters.

      And, yes, to another post of yours, the mainstream is slow.  But I wonder if it?s ever been this slow before.  Of course, in the past, it didn?t have to be very fast since progress was slow, due to so many few people in the world, among other things.

      As for Roethke vs. Patchen, I think it may be possible to compare level of achievement across disciplines, but I?m not up to it right now.  So I?ll just say that I?m more interested in how one writer compares as a poet to another.  

      --Bob 
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 17 18:51:22 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 15:51:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
In-Reply-To: <1087AC2268AE447C9EDEE2E65BD13449@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1332024682.30935.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Yes, going across disciplines is a pain.?

--- On Sat, 3/17/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 17, 2012, 6:46 PM









  
  
    
      Roethke zone ... compared to T Roethke, she may be a 
      second rate poet, Bob, but that would include 99.9 percent of everyone 
      alive. The visual & math poets are lucky. They don't have as many dead 
      in the competition. Their burden is lighter.
      ? 
>From one point of view, that?s 
      correct; from another, we have double the competition from dead 
      artists?the dead poets and the dead painters.
      ?
      And, yes, to another post of yours, the mainstream is 
      slow.? But I wonder if it?s ever been this slow before.? Of 
      course, in the past, it didn?t have to be very fast since progress was 
      slow, due to so many few people in the world, among other things.
      ?
      As for Roethke vs. Patchen, I think it may be possible to compare 
      level of achievement across disciplines, but I?m not up to it right 
      now.? So I?ll just say that I?m more interested in how one writer 
      compares as a poet to another.? 
      ?
      --Bob

?


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From carol.dorf at gmail.com  Sat Mar 17 19:58:22 2012
From: carol.dorf at gmail.com (carol dorf)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 16:58:22 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
In-Reply-To: <1332024682.30935.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1087AC2268AE447C9EDEE2E65BD13449@BobHP>
	<1332024682.30935.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CABVBwJDQL7TmRZ5T8ADnSOd2Y1+TP_YV7LUtywZjhcB8KMLODg@mail.gmail.com>

*The visual & math poets are lucky. They don't have as many dead in the
competition. Their burden is lighter.
*
I'm not so sure about this distinction between "mathematical" poets and
other poets -- poetry includes various realms of discourse -- ekphrastic,
poems of the natural world like most of Mary Oliver's, poems of love and
sex, poems that reference philosophy, the poetry of family life, the poetry
of justice/injustice, and yes, the poetry of the suburbs. Mathematics is
just another branch of thought -- I think the way poets spend their days
influences what they write -- so poets who are involved in mathematics,
either as work, or as recreation, will bring mathematics into their poetry.
Carol

>
>
>
>

-- 
Carol Dorf
talkingwriting.com
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 17 20:13:47 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 17:13:47 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
In-Reply-To: <CABVBwJDQL7TmRZ5T8ADnSOd2Y1+TP_YV7LUtywZjhcB8KMLODg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1332029627.31195.YahooMailClassic@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

it's not so much discourse, as technique, form, the thing itself ... & the type of poems that are included in the mainstream press, in major anthologies ...? all that ... 
?
of course, when I said their burden was lighter, I was merely pointing out the fact that certain poets are doing pioneering work as far as technique is concerned, especially vispo and math poets. Anything can be included in a poem as far as discourse is concerned, but a sestina is different?from a free verse poem, and math/vispo poems are different from pretty much all other type of poetry. Or so it seems ... 

--- On Sat, 3/17/12, carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com> wrote:


From: carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 17, 2012, 7:58 PM


The visual & math poets are lucky. They don't have as many dead in the competition. Their burden is lighter.

I'm not so sure about this distinction between "mathematical" poets and other poets -- poetry includes various realms of discourse -- ekphrastic, poems of the natural world like most of Mary Oliver's, poems of love and sex, poems that reference philosophy, the poetry of family life, the poetry of justice/injustice, and yes, the poetry of the suburbs. Mathematics is just another branch of thought -- I think the way poets spend their days influences what they write -- so poets who are involved in mathematics, either as work, or as recreation, will bring mathematics into their poetry.
Carol











-- 
Carol Dorf
talkingwriting.com



-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Mar 18 09:47:07 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 09:47:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
In-Reply-To: <CABVBwJDQL7TmRZ5T8ADnSOd2Y1+TP_YV7LUtywZjhcB8KMLODg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1087AC2268AE447C9EDEE2E65BD13449@BobHP><1332024682.30935.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<CABVBwJDQL7TmRZ5T8ADnSOd2Y1+TP_YV7LUtywZjhcB8KMLODg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2E135F7C87DF4AF1986FE733D048D132@BobHP>



From: carol dorf 
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 7:58 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine

The visual & math poets are lucky. They don't have as many dead in the competition. Their burden is lighter.

I'm not so sure about this distinction between "mathematical" poets and other poets -- poetry includes various realms of discourse -- ekphrastic, poems of the natural world like most of Mary Oliver's, poems of love and sex, poems that reference philosophy, the poetry of family life, the poetry of justice/injustice, and yes, the poetry of the suburbs. Mathematics is just another branch of thought -- I think the way poets spend their days influences what they write -- so poets who are involved in mathematics, either as work, or as recreation, will bring mathematics into their poetry.
Carol


       

  But do they use it in their poetry, as opposed to merely discuss it?  For me it?s a matter of expressive modalities: mathematical poetry?s are both verbal and mathematical (as little as the use of an exponent) whatever its subject, while a poetry whose expressive modality is only verbal is not, even if its subject is mathematics.  just as a visual poem is not a poem about about a Breughel painting but a poem that uses the kind of expressive modality painters use.  Which doesn?t make one necessarily superior to the other, but does make one significantly different from traditional poetry.

--Bob
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From theoldmole at gmail.com  Sun Mar 18 10:26:40 2012
From: theoldmole at gmail.com (Tad Richards)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 10:26:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
In-Reply-To: <2E135F7C87DF4AF1986FE733D048D132@BobHP>
References: <1087AC2268AE447C9EDEE2E65BD13449@BobHP>
	<1332024682.30935.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<CABVBwJDQL7TmRZ5T8ADnSOd2Y1+TP_YV7LUtywZjhcB8KMLODg@mail.gmail.com>
	<2E135F7C87DF4AF1986FE733D048D132@BobHP>
Message-ID: <CAAy7y5TxDNsJRqa4uk-mX1BTFqmKBxXk0jZhetgj4ediVNkU2g@mail.gmail.com>

** mathematical poetry?s are both verbal *and*mathematical (as little as
the use of an exponent) **

Does this include a poet like Creeley using a plus sign for "and"?

On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 9:47 AM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:

>
>
>  *From:* carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, March 17, 2012 7:58 PM
> *To:* NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
>
> *The visual & math poets are lucky. They don't have as many dead in the
> competition. Their burden is lighter.
> *
> I'm not so sure about this distinction between "mathematical" poets and
> other poets -- poetry includes various realms of discourse -- ekphrastic,
> poems of the natural world like most of Mary Oliver's, poems of love and
> sex, poems that reference philosophy, the poetry of family life, the poetry
> of justice/injustice, and yes, the poetry of the suburbs. Mathematics is
> just another branch of thought -- I think the way poets spend their days
> influences what they write -- so poets who are involved in mathematics,
> either as work, or as recreation, will bring mathematics into their poetry.
> Carol
>
>>
>> But do they *use* it in their poetry, as opposed to merely discuss it?
>> For me it?s a matter of expressive modalities: mathematical poetry?s are
>> both verbal *and* mathematical (as little as the use of an exponent)
>> whatever its subject, while a poetry whose expressive modality is only
>> verbal is not, even if its subject is mathematics.  just as a visual poem
>> is not a poem about about a Breughel painting but a poem that uses the kind
>> of expressive modality painters use.  Which doesn?t make one necessarily
>> superior to the other, but does make one significantly different from
>> traditional poetry.
>>
>
> --Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Mar 18 10:30:54 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 10:30:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
In-Reply-To: <CAAy7y5TxDNsJRqa4uk-mX1BTFqmKBxXk0jZhetgj4ediVNkU2g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1087AC2268AE447C9EDEE2E65BD13449@BobHP><1332024682.30935.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><CABVBwJDQL7T
	mRZ5T8ADnSOd2Y1+TP_YV7LUtywZjhcB8KMLODg@mail.gmail.com><2E135F7C87DF4AF1986FE733D048D132@BobHP>
	<CAAy7y5TxDNsJRqa4uk-mX1BTFqmKBxXk0jZhetgj4ediVNkU2g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <170CC49E2ED544DE80F0100D73B26C68@BobHP>



From: Tad Richards 
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 10:26 AM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine

** mathematical poetry?s are both verbal and mathematical (as little as the use of an exponent) ** 

Does this include a poet like Creeley using a plus sign for "and"?

That?s where the border is, but I would say no, that the plus and minus are like the &?too widely used as verbal symbols to feel mathematical unless in a clearly mathematical context.  The a does the same thing in reverse when in an algebraic equation.

--Bob
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From carol.dorf at gmail.com  Sun Mar 18 11:07:28 2012
From: carol.dorf at gmail.com (carol dorf)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 08:07:28 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
In-Reply-To: <1332029627.31195.YahooMailClassic@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <CABVBwJDQL7TmRZ5T8ADnSOd2Y1+TP_YV7LUtywZjhcB8KMLODg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1332029627.31195.YahooMailClassic@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CABVBwJD5SO5Y8CjJN_2vuxVtVS1GtsT3e6o6=QuMJxPc+j6xzg@mail.gmail.com>

I would argue against mathematical poems as a separate "school" of poetry
-- one can look at mathematical content and techniques (i.e. syllabics,
metrics, many traditional forms) in a variety of poems. To me, partitioning
poems that involve mathematics onto their own plane is an  unnecessary
division.
I think the symbols of mathematics, are just orthography -- while I find
the use of them in poetry interesting, those poems are not necessarily
mathematical. What I think is actually the hardest part of mathematical
poetry is finding accessible forms and language for mathematical ideas, and
in particular higher mathematics.

The Glaz and Growney Anthology *Strange Attractors* (which includes Bob)
would be good starting point for this discussion.


Carol
TalkingWriting.com

Here's a more detailed take on my perspective:

http://talkingwriting.com/?p=28311
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Mar 18 11:49:24 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 11:49:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
In-Reply-To: <CABVBwJD5SO5Y8CjJN_2vuxVtVS1GtsT3e6o6=QuMJxPc+j6xzg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABVBwJDQL7TmRZ5T8ADnSOd2Y1+TP_YV7LUtywZjhcB8KMLODg@mail.gmail.com><1332029627.31195.YahooMailClassic@web161901.mail
	.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<CABVBwJD5SO5Y8CjJN_2vuxVtVS1GtsT3e6o6=QuMJxPc+j6xzg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E1880F3A0734456491A8531A6E3F80FF@BobHP>



From: carol dorf 
Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 11:07 AM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine

I would argue against mathematical poems as a separate "school" of poetry -- one can look at mathematical content and techniques (i.e. syllabics, metrics, many traditional forms) in a variety of poems. To me, partitioning poems that involve mathematics onto their own plane is an  unnecessary division. I think the symbols of mathematics, are just orthography -- while I find the use of them in poetry interesting, those poems are not necessarily mathematical. What I think is actually the hardest part of mathematical poetry is finding accessible forms and language for mathematical ideas, and in particular higher mathematics.

The Glaz and Growney Anthology Strange Attractors (which includes Bob) would be good starting point for this discussion.

I have little more to say except that I believe that when brain scanners are sophisticated enough, they will show that what I call mathematical significantly engage both mathematical and verbal portions of the brain whereas poems about mathematics do not.  I should also add that of course I?m defending my own practice, which I see, in my mathematical poems, as more than different spelling?although I also believe a focus on ?just orthography? leads to what I call infraverbal poetry, which seems to me about as significantly a different kind of poetry as mathematical poetry.  Ooops, once started, it?s hard for me to stop?but I have one more item to add?that as a taxonomist of poetry, I see no point in classifying poems on the basis of their subject matter (except at the lowest level); to show inter-relationships that matter, you need to classify on the basis of what poems do, not what they are about.

--Bob
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From ahadada at gol.com  Sun Mar 18 14:06:35 2012
From: ahadada at gol.com (ahadada at gol.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 18:06:35 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Beyond Baroque--For Japan
Message-ID: <fxzQxgQe.1332093995.3165520.ahadada@gol.com>

Went really well. Good people showed up--including Kasia Daley--hadn't
seen her for six, seven years. Jerry Rothenberg and Hiromi Ito were
stars--Amy Yuematsu was really fine, Marthe Reed's reading was fine
indeed.  the fine poet/translator Jen Hofer declined the spotlight, but
she's always welcome to return.  All's great at Venice Beach!  Digging
Day of the Dead skulls & a wonderful bookstore--fantastic poetry
selection--called Small World Bookshop.

My book TWO is now available from Knives Forks and Spoons Press
(U.K.)--see their website.

Jess of Japan




From jforjames at aol.com  Sun Mar 18 20:13:47 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 20:13:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hollywood Poe
Message-ID: <8CED37C49B12F14-1600-B486@webmail-m051.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/2012/02/the-great-bad-writer-edgar-allan-poe-raven-cusack/


So when, in March, Universal Pictures releases The Raven, a serial-killer romp with John Cusack playing the author as an amateur detective, it should not expect any problems with brand recognition. Even in a post-literate climate, just about everyone knows their Poe. Why? Well, the answer to that question depends on where you were born. In the English-speaking world, Poe is often treated with a hint of condescension and a splash of pity somewhere in the mix. Those who read him are usually in their teens, either because his stories are short and easy and interesting enough to be taught in classrooms, or because they pander to the kind of sullen morbidity that flourishes in late childhood or early adolescence. But elsewhere, and especially in France, he is taken far more seriously, and continues to occupy much the same secure place in high culture that he has enjoyed for a century and a half.  ?Quaint and curious,? as Poe wrote in ?The Raven.?


American literature came of age in the 19th century, and quite soon produced a remarkable crop of masters. Hawthorne and Melville; Emerson and Thoreau; Longfellow and Whitman; Twain? and very much the odd man out, Poe. 
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From bircumplus at yahoo.co.uk  Mon Mar 19 03:05:16 2012
From: bircumplus at yahoo.co.uk (David Bircumshaw)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 07:05:16 +0000 (GMT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Spam in Robin's Name?
In-Reply-To: <3D3ADE312350441CABF843BA54354501@BobHP>
References: <776b6ccfad24245fdcf56147c14237ec.squirrel@webmail4.web.com>
	<3D3ADE312350441CABF843BA54354501@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1332140716.66642.YahooMailNeo@web132503.mail.ird.yahoo.com>

bob or anyone else

If you get anything from Robin's old e-mail address @btinternet.com it's fake: the address was discontinued months ago. He's getting nowhere finding out where it's from - bt don't maintain the address anymore and a source probe shows it being from a site that neither confirms nor denies the identity. Brick wall.

?
regards



David Bircumshaw


Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk
Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com


________________________________
 From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Monday, 12 March 2012, 16:05
Subject: [New-Poetry] Spam in Robin's Name?
 
I just got an e.mail purported to be from Robin Hamilton but sounding nothing like him.? It went out to several in New-Poetry besides me.? Robin has been so inactive since I switched computers last year that I haven't his e.mail address on my new one.? I hope someone who does have it lets him known about this e.mail.? It's from "gametest11": "Hey there!? lately ive been so frustrated I took my chances with this I knew that it was time to try something new.? its crazy how the tables have turned you should consider trying it...?  see you."? I'm deleting it.

--Bob 

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Mar 19 07:21:11 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 07:21:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Spam in Robin's Name?
In-Reply-To: <1332140716.66642.YahooMailNeo@web132503.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
References: <776b6ccfad24245fdcf56147c14237ec.squirrel@webmail4.web.com><3D3ADE312350441CABF843BA54354501@BobHP>
	<1332140716.66642.YahooMailNeo@web132503.mail.ird.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C87DBBCD82BE47CE8529BDB638D59808@BobHP>



From: David Bircumshaw 
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 3:05 AM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Spam in Robin's Name?

bob or anyone else


If you get anything from Robin's old e-mail address @btinternet.com it's fake: the address was discontinued months ago. He's getting nowhere finding out where it's from - bt don't maintain the address anymore and a source probe shows it being from a site that neither confirms nor denies the identity. Brick wall.


regards



David Bircumshaw

Thanks, David.  I only got the one spam post, so I think all?s okay now.
.
all best, Bob
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From by.tjmst at gmail.com  Mon Mar 19 08:47:18 2012
From: by.tjmst at gmail.com (BY TJMST)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 12:47:18 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] New-Poetry Digest, Vol 20, Issue 18
In-Reply-To: <mailman.5.1332086417.23657.new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <mailman.5.1332086417.23657.new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <CACU_Fg5ukPLmDU8NaG4oTpadQa=zq8AUEWP0sSzpTQSrxOj6aw@mail.gmail.com>

HI BOB i like your unique reviewing style -you aren't  often not actually
disconnected from the theory of critiquing the arts & poetry per se.I wish
i can be a literary ultrasound equip that monitor and record the ways
physiology of your Wernickle s & Brocas areas when you spontaneously react
to a work of art --or a peer s rejoinder...Just keep it much more than for
lay admirer like me -i might be looking for writers or poets who are raw
materials for free writing themselves-at least for global digest not
necessarily for
the SONNET GRANT BUILDING.
How are the mathematiku doin?
any latest experiment?
any accessible anthology?
any esotheric adenda?
Why should i miss AMY s  poetic readings? any archival video for last 14
March ?i hope not ides of March?
gbemi tijani mst
convener ;capacity concern

On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 4:00 PM, <new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu> wrote:

> Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
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> Today's Topics:
>
>   1. Re: A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine (stephen russell)
>   2. Re: A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine (stephen russell)
>   3. Re: A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine (stephen russell)
>   4. Re: A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine (stephen russell)
>   5. Re: A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine (bob grumman)
>   6. Re: A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine (stephen russell)
>   7. Re: A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine (carol dorf)
>   8. Re: A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine (stephen russell)
>   9. Re: A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine (bob grumman)
>  10. Re: A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine (Tad Richards)
>  11. Re: A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine (bob grumman)
>  12. Re: A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine (carol dorf)
>  13. Re: A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine (bob grumman)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 11:27:35 -0700 (PDT)
> From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
> Message-ID:
>        <1332008855.16509.YahooMailClassic at web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Roethke zone ... compared to T Roethke, she may be a second rate poet,
> Bob, but that would include 99.9 percent of everyone alive. The visual &
> math poets are lucky. They don't have as many dead in the competition.
> Their burden is lighter.
>
> --- On Fri, 3/16/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>
> From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
> To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Date: Friday, March 16, 2012, 8:08 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ?
>
> I
> cheated. Mary Oliver. And I immediately assume I'm not going to like any
> poem
> that begins "One summer afternoon
> I heard," but I read on, and you're
> right. It has something. I liked it. I didn't even mind
> (much)the obligatory abuse stanza.? --Tad
>
> Weird, I
> didn?t even pick up on the abuse stanza.? I?m not sure what I thought it
> meant.? Just a bit of dark for the celebration to contrast with . .
> .??? I do think now the poem would be much better without
> it.?
>
> ?
>
> I guess I missed what the stanza clearly said because it?s not in the
> kind of poems I generally read.? And I was in a Roethke zone, far from that
> kind of thing.? I don?t retract my my rating of the poem,
> though.
>
> ?
>
> --Bob?
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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> >
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 11:54:10 -0700 (PDT)
> From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
> Message-ID:
>        <1332010450.15533.YahooMailClassic at web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> it's gets interesting, and post ... everything ... when you compare
> artist/poets of different types ... Roethke is a much better poet than
> Kenneth Patchen, but if I had to choose between the two, I'd choose Patchen
> because of his exceptional Journal of Albion Moonlight novel, and his
> vispos.
>
> --- On Sat, 3/17/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
> To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Date: Saturday, March 17, 2012, 2:27 PM
>
> Roethke zone ... compared to T Roethke, she may be a second rate poet,
> Bob, but that would include 99.9 percent of everyone alive. The visual &
> math poets are lucky. They don't have as many dead in the competition.
> Their burden is lighter.
>
> --- On Fri, 3/16/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>
> From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
> To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Date: Friday, March 16, 2012, 8:08 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ?
>
> I
> cheated. Mary Oliver. And I immediately assume I'm not going to like any
> poem
> that begins "One summer afternoon
> I heard," but I read on, and you're
> right. It has something. I liked it. I didn't even mind
> (much)the obligatory abuse stanza.? --Tad
>
> Weird, I
> didn?t even pick up on the abuse stanza.? I?m not sure what I thought it
> meant.? Just a bit of dark for the celebration to contrast with . .
> .??? I do think now the poem would be much better without
> it.?
>
> ?
>
> I guess I missed what the stanza clearly said because it?s not in the
> kind of poems I generally read.? And I was in a Roethke zone, far from that
> kind of thing.? I don?t retract my my rating of the poem,
> though.
>
> ?
>
> --Bob?
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 13:08:30 -0700 (PDT)
> From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
> Message-ID:
>        <1332014910.68773.YahooMailClassic at web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> come to think of it, vispo/math poets are pioneers.
> that's probably why the mainstream doesn't recognize them.
> the mainstream is slow.
>
> poets outside vispo/math have the burden of competing with poets such as
> Roethke, or Rilke.
>
> better strategy. keep it new in the WCW sense. do both.
>
> --- On Sat, 3/17/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
> To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Date: Saturday, March 17, 2012, 2:54 PM
>
> it's gets interesting, and post ... everything ... when you compare
> artist/poets of different types ... Roethke is a much better poet than
> Kenneth Patchen, but if I had to choose between the two, I'd choose Patchen
> because of his exceptional Journal of Albion Moonlight novel, and his
> vispos.
>
> --- On Sat, 3/17/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
> To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Date: Saturday, March 17, 2012, 2:27 PM
>
> Roethke zone ... compared to T Roethke, she may be a second rate poet,
> Bob, but that would include 99.9 percent of everyone alive. The visual &
> math poets are lucky. They don't have as many dead in the competition.
> Their burden is lighter.
>
> --- On Fri, 3/16/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>
> From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
> To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Date: Friday, March 16, 2012, 8:08 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ?
>
> I
> cheated. Mary Oliver. And I immediately assume I'm not going to like any
> poem
> that begins "One summer afternoon
> I heard," but I read on, and you're
> right. It has something. I liked it. I didn't even mind
> (much)the obligatory abuse stanza.? --Tad
>
> Weird, I
> didn?t even pick up on the abuse stanza.? I?m not sure what I thought it
> meant.? Just a bit of dark for the celebration to contrast with . .
> .??? I do think now the poem would be much better without
> it.?
>
> ?
>
> I guess I missed what the stanza clearly said because it?s not in the
> kind of poems I generally read.? And I was in a Roethke zone, far from that
> kind of thing.? I don?t retract my my rating of the poem,
> though.
>
> ?
>
> --Bob?
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> _______________________________________________
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> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 13:11:09 -0700 (PDT)
> From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
> Message-ID:
>        <1332015069.19733.YahooMailClassic at web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> this is worthy of Roethke.
>
> it? reads as though it were a modernist rereading of the English Romantics.
> I'm not sure which English Romantic.
> But the poem is exceptional.
>
> --- On Fri, 3/16/12, Tad Richards <theoldmole at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> From: Tad Richards <theoldmole at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
> To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Date: Friday, March 16, 2012, 7:27 PM
>
> I cheated. Mary Oliver. And I immediately assume I'm not going to like any
> poem that begins "One summer
> afternoon
> I heard," but I read on, and you're right. It has something. I liked it. I
> didn't even mind (much)the obligatory abuse stanza.
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 16, 2012 at 5:05 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I?m
> reviewing the magazine.? When I came across the following poem, I didn?t
> know who wrote it.? I found it at first a bit bland but not bad.? Then
> I gradually came to like it quite a bit.? I?m bothering to post it because
> I was shocked when I found out whose it was.? How could I like it??
> But I like many conventional poems, and this one, from the very middle of
> Wilshberia, seems winningly a spin off from one of my favoritest poets,
> Roethke,
> with a bit of James Wright, whom I also like quite a bit.? It seems to me
> ordinary in just about every way a poem can be, but effectively
> so.? Ordinary diction, theme and point of view, imagery, free verse
> form?but, as I say, it worked for me.? Its almost unnoticeable ascent into
> the archetypal?? The mood I was in?? I suppose mainly simply a nearly
> perfect knowledge of how to make poems like this.? I?ll reveal the author
> if I have to?that is, if no one else does.
> ?
> Hum,
> Hum
>
> 1.
> One summer
> afternoon
> I heard
>
> a
> looming, mysterious hum
>
> high in the air; then
> came something
>
> like a small planet flying
> past-
>
> something
>
> not at
> all interested in me but on its own
>
> way somewhere, all anointed with
> excitement:
>
> bees,
> swarming,
>
> not to be held back.
>
> nothing could hold them back.
>
> 2.
>
> Gannets diving.
>
> Black snake
> wrapped in a tree, our
> eyes
> meeting
>
> The grass
> singing
> as it sipped up the summer rain.
>
> The
> owl in the darkness,
> that good darkness
>
> under
> the stars.
>
> The child that was myself, that kept running away
>
> to
> the also running creek,
>
> To colt's foot and
> trilliums,
>
> to the effortless prattle of the birds.
>
> 3.
> Said
> the
> Mother
>
> You are going to grow
> up
> and in
> order for that to
> happen
>
> I
> am
> going
> to
> have to grow
> old
> ?
> and
> then I
> will
> die, and the
> blame
>
> will be yours.
>
> 4. Of the Father
>
> He
> wanted a
> body
>
> So he took
> mine.
>
> Some
> wounds never
> vanish.
> Yet little
> by little
>
> I
> learned to love my life.
>
> Though sometimes I had to run hard-
>
> especially from melancholy-
>
> not to be held back.
>
> 5.
>
> I
> think there ought
> to
> be
> a
> little music here:
>
> hum, hum.
>
> 6.
>
> The
> resurrection of the morning.
>
> The mystery of
> the
> night.
>
> The
> hummingbird's
> wings.
>
> The
> excitement of thunder.
>
> The
> rainbow in the
> waterfall.
>
> Wild
> mustard, that rough blaze
> of the fields.
>
> The mockingbird, replaying the songs of his
>
> neighbors.
>
> The bluebird with its unambitious warble,
>
> simple yet sufficient.
>
> The
> shining fish. The beak of the crow.
>
> The new colt who came to
> me
> and leaned
>
> against the
> fence
> that I might put
> my
> hands upon his warm
> body
> and know no
> fear.
> Also the words of poets
>
> a hundred or hundreds of
> years dead-
>
> their words
> that would not be held
> back.
> 7.
>
> Oh the house of denial has mighty thick walls
>
> and very small windows
>
> and whoever lives there, little
> by
> little,
>
> will turn to stone.
>
> *
>
> In those years I did
> everything I could do
>
> And I did it in the dark-
>
> I mean, without understanding.
>
> I ran
> away.
> Again I ran away.
>
> Then,
> again, I ran away.
>
> *
>
> They were awfully little, those bees,
>
> and
> maybe frightened,
>
> yet unstoppably they flew
> on, somewhere,
>
> to live
> their life.
> Hum, hum, hum.
>
> ?
>
> _______________________________________________
>
> New-Poetry mailing list
>
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>
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>
>
>
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 18:46:47 -0400
> From: "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
> Message-ID: <1087AC2268AE447C9EDEE2E65BD13449 at BobHP>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>      Roethke zone ... compared to T Roethke, she may be a second rate
> poet, Bob, but that would include 99.9 percent of everyone alive. The
> visual & math poets are lucky. They don't have as many dead in the
> competition. Their burden is lighter.
>
>      From one point of view, that?s correct; from another, we have double
> the competition from dead artists?the dead poets and the dead painters.
>
>      And, yes, to another post of yours, the mainstream is slow.  But I
> wonder if it?s ever been this slow before.  Of course, in the past, it
> didn?t have to be very fast since progress was slow, due to so many few
> people in the world, among other things.
>
>      As for Roethke vs. Patchen, I think it may be possible to compare
> level of achievement across disciplines, but I?m not up to it right now.
>  So I?ll just say that I?m more interested in how one writer compares as a
> poet to another.
>
>      --Bob
> -------------- next part --------------
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 15:51:22 -0700 (PDT)
> From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
> Message-ID:
>        <1332024682.30935.YahooMailClassic at web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Yes, going across disciplines is a pain.?
>
> --- On Sat, 3/17/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>
> From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
> To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Date: Saturday, March 17, 2012, 6:46 PM
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>      Roethke zone ... compared to T Roethke, she may be a
>      second rate poet, Bob, but that would include 99.9 percent of everyone
>      alive. The visual & math poets are lucky. They don't have as many dead
>      in the competition. Their burden is lighter.
>      ?
> >From one point of view, that?s
>      correct; from another, we have double the competition from dead
>      artists?the dead poets and the dead painters.
>      ?
>      And, yes, to another post of yours, the mainstream is
>      slow.? But I wonder if it?s ever been this slow before.? Of
>      course, in the past, it didn?t have to be very fast since progress was
>      slow, due to so many few people in the world, among other things.
>      ?
>      As for Roethke vs. Patchen, I think it may be possible to compare
>      level of achievement across disciplines, but I?m not up to it right
>      now.? So I?ll just say that I?m more interested in how one writer
>      compares as a poet to another.?
>      ?
>      --Bob
>
> ?
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 16:58:22 -0700
> From: carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com>
> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
> Message-ID:
>        <CABVBwJDQL7TmRZ5T8ADnSOd2Y1+TP_YV7LUtywZjhcB8KMLODg at mail.gmail.com
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> *The visual & math poets are lucky. They don't have as many dead in the
> competition. Their burden is lighter.
> *
> I'm not so sure about this distinction between "mathematical" poets and
> other poets -- poetry includes various realms of discourse -- ekphrastic,
> poems of the natural world like most of Mary Oliver's, poems of love and
> sex, poems that reference philosophy, the poetry of family life, the poetry
> of justice/injustice, and yes, the poetry of the suburbs. Mathematics is
> just another branch of thought -- I think the way poets spend their days
> influences what they write -- so poets who are involved in mathematics,
> either as work, or as recreation, will bring mathematics into their poetry.
> Carol
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Carol Dorf
> talkingwriting.com
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 17:13:47 -0700 (PDT)
> From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
> Message-ID:
>        <1332029627.31195.YahooMailClassic at web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> it's not so much discourse, as technique, form, the thing itself ... & the
> type of poems that are included in the mainstream press, in major
> anthologies ...? all that ...
> ?
> of course, when I said their burden was lighter, I was merely pointing out
> the fact that certain poets are doing pioneering work as far as technique
> is concerned, especially vispo and math poets. Anything can be included in
> a poem as far as discourse is concerned, but a sestina is different?from a
> free verse poem, and math/vispo poems are different from pretty much all
> other type of poetry. Or so it seems ...
>
> --- On Sat, 3/17/12, carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> From: carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
> To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Date: Saturday, March 17, 2012, 7:58 PM
>
>
> The visual & math poets are lucky. They don't have as many dead in the
> competition. Their burden is lighter.
>
> I'm not so sure about this distinction between "mathematical" poets and
> other poets -- poetry includes various realms of discourse -- ekphrastic,
> poems of the natural world like most of Mary Oliver's, poems of love and
> sex, poems that reference philosophy, the poetry of family life, the poetry
> of justice/injustice, and yes, the poetry of the suburbs. Mathematics is
> just another branch of thought -- I think the way poets spend their days
> influences what they write -- so poets who are involved in mathematics,
> either as work, or as recreation, will bring mathematics into their poetry.
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Carol Dorf
> talkingwriting.com
>
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 09:47:07 -0400
> From: "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
> Message-ID: <2E135F7C87DF4AF1986FE733D048D132 at BobHP>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
>
> From: carol dorf
> Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 7:58 PM
> To: NewPoetry List
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
>
> The visual & math poets are lucky. They don't have as many dead in the
> competition. Their burden is lighter.
>
> I'm not so sure about this distinction between "mathematical" poets and
> other poets -- poetry includes various realms of discourse -- ekphrastic,
> poems of the natural world like most of Mary Oliver's, poems of love and
> sex, poems that reference philosophy, the poetry of family life, the poetry
> of justice/injustice, and yes, the poetry of the suburbs. Mathematics is
> just another branch of thought -- I think the way poets spend their days
> influences what they write -- so poets who are involved in mathematics,
> either as work, or as recreation, will bring mathematics into their poetry.
> Carol
>
>
>
>
>  But do they use it in their poetry, as opposed to merely discuss it?  For
> me it?s a matter of expressive modalities: mathematical poetry?s are both
> verbal and mathematical (as little as the use of an exponent) whatever its
> subject, while a poetry whose expressive modality is only verbal is not,
> even if its subject is mathematics.  just as a visual poem is not a poem
> about about a Breughel painting but a poem that uses the kind of expressive
> modality painters use.  Which doesn?t make one necessarily superior to the
> other, but does make one significantly different from traditional poetry.
>
> --Bob
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 10:26:40 -0400
> From: Tad Richards <theoldmole at gmail.com>
> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
> Message-ID:
>        <CAAy7y5TxDNsJRqa4uk-mX1BTFqmKBxXk0jZhetgj4ediVNkU2g at mail.gmail.com
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> ** mathematical poetry?s are both verbal *and*mathematical (as little as
> the use of an exponent) **
>
> Does this include a poet like Creeley using a plus sign for "and"?
>
> On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 9:47 AM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net
> >wrote:
>
> >
> >
> >  *From:* carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com>
> > *Sent:* Saturday, March 17, 2012 7:58 PM
> > *To:* NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
> >
> > *The visual & math poets are lucky. They don't have as many dead in the
> > competition. Their burden is lighter.
> > *
> > I'm not so sure about this distinction between "mathematical" poets and
> > other poets -- poetry includes various realms of discourse -- ekphrastic,
> > poems of the natural world like most of Mary Oliver's, poems of love and
> > sex, poems that reference philosophy, the poetry of family life, the
> poetry
> > of justice/injustice, and yes, the poetry of the suburbs. Mathematics is
> > just another branch of thought -- I think the way poets spend their days
> > influences what they write -- so poets who are involved in mathematics,
> > either as work, or as recreation, will bring mathematics into their
> poetry.
> > Carol
> >
> >>
> >> But do they *use* it in their poetry, as opposed to merely discuss it?
> >> For me it?s a matter of expressive modalities: mathematical poetry?s are
> >> both verbal *and* mathematical (as little as the use of an exponent)
> >> whatever its subject, while a poetry whose expressive modality is only
> >> verbal is not, even if its subject is mathematics.  just as a visual
> poem
> >> is not a poem about about a Breughel painting but a poem that uses the
> kind
> >> of expressive modality painters use.  Which doesn?t make one necessarily
> >> superior to the other, but does make one significantly different from
> >> traditional poetry.
> >>
> >
> > --Bob
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> >
> >
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 10:30:54 -0400
> From: "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
> Message-ID: <170CC49E2ED544DE80F0100D73B26C68 at BobHP>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
>
>
> From: Tad Richards
> Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 10:26 AM
> To: NewPoetry List
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
>
> ** mathematical poetry?s are both verbal and mathematical (as little as
> the use of an exponent) **
>
> Does this include a poet like Creeley using a plus sign for "and"?
>
> That?s where the border is, but I would say no, that the plus and minus
> are like the &?too widely used as verbal symbols to feel mathematical
> unless in a clearly mathematical context.  The a does the same thing in
> reverse when in an algebraic equation.
>
> --Bob
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 12
> Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 08:07:28 -0700
> From: carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com>
> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
> Message-ID:
>        <CABVBwJD5SO5Y8CjJN_2vuxVtVS1GtsT3e6o6=QuMJxPc+j6xzg at mail.gmail.com
> >
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> I would argue against mathematical poems as a separate "school" of poetry
> -- one can look at mathematical content and techniques (i.e. syllabics,
> metrics, many traditional forms) in a variety of poems. To me, partitioning
> poems that involve mathematics onto their own plane is an  unnecessary
> division.
> I think the symbols of mathematics, are just orthography -- while I find
> the use of them in poetry interesting, those poems are not necessarily
> mathematical. What I think is actually the hardest part of mathematical
> poetry is finding accessible forms and language for mathematical ideas, and
> in particular higher mathematics.
>
> The Glaz and Growney Anthology *Strange Attractors* (which includes Bob)
> would be good starting point for this discussion.
>
>
> Carol
> TalkingWriting.com
>
> Here's a more detailed take on my perspective:
>
> http://talkingwriting.com/?p=28311
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> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 13
> Date: Sun, 18 Mar 2012 11:49:24 -0400
> From: "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
> Message-ID: <E1880F3A0734456491A8531A6E3F80FF at BobHP>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
>
>
> From: carol dorf
> Sent: Sunday, March 18, 2012 11:07 AM
> To: NewPoetry List
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
>
> I would argue against mathematical poems as a separate "school" of poetry
> -- one can look at mathematical content and techniques (i.e. syllabics,
> metrics, many traditional forms) in a variety of poems. To me, partitioning
> poems that involve mathematics onto their own plane is an  unnecessary
> division. I think the symbols of mathematics, are just orthography -- while
> I find the use of them in poetry interesting, those poems are not
> necessarily mathematical. What I think is actually the hardest part of
> mathematical poetry is finding accessible forms and language for
> mathematical ideas, and in particular higher mathematics.
>
> The Glaz and Growney Anthology Strange Attractors (which includes Bob)
> would be good starting point for this discussion.
>
> I have little more to say except that I believe that when brain scanners
> are sophisticated enough, they will show that what I call mathematical
> significantly engage both mathematical and verbal portions of the brain
> whereas poems about mathematics do not.  I should also add that of course
> I?m defending my own practice, which I see, in my mathematical poems, as
> more than different spelling?although I also believe a focus on ?just
> orthography? leads to what I call infraverbal poetry, which seems to me
> about as significantly a different kind of poetry as mathematical poetry.
>  Ooops, once started, it?s hard for me to stop?but I have one more item to
> add?that as a taxonomist of poetry, I see no point in classifying poems on
> the basis of their subject matter (except at the lowest level); to show
> inter-relationships that matter, you need to classify on the basis of what
> poems do, not what they are about.
>
> --Bob
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 20, Issue 18
> ******************************************
>
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Mar 19 13:11:32 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 13:11:32 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] New-Poetry Digest, Vol 20, Issue 18
In-Reply-To: <CACU_Fg5ukPLmDU8NaG4oTpadQa=zq8AUEWP0sSzpTQSrxOj6aw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.5.1332086417.23657.new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<CACU_Fg5ukPLmDU8NaG4oTpadQa=zq8AUEWP0sSzpTQSrxOj6aw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EF654CD0A8EE42B9BEC9990B30083CF3@BobHP>



From: BY TJMST 
Sent: Monday, March 19, 2012 8:47 AM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Cc: by. tjmst 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] New-Poetry Digest, Vol 20, Issue 18

HI BOB i like your unique reviewing style -you aren't  often not actually disconnected from the theory of critiquing the arts & poetry per se.I wish i can be a literary ultrasound equip that monitor and record the ways physiology of your Wernickle s & Brocas areas when you spontaneously react to a work of art --or a peer s rejoinder...Just keep it much more than for lay admirer like me -i might be looking for writers or poets who are raw materials for free writing themselves-at least for global digest not necessarily for  
the SONNET GRANT BUILDING.
Thanks for the unsolicited approval, tjmst. (Do I know you?)

How are the mathematiku doin?

Unfortunately I can?t hurl an insult at you for miscalling my MATHEMAKU ?mathematiku,? natural mistake though it is, for fear of further alienating Mike Snider.  But thanks for the unsolicited question about them, for it allows me narcissistically to boast that this very morning my dentist invited me to use her waiting room as an exhibition area for my work!  Not quite the Guggenheim but a step up for me.  And exciting because I can test ideas out in it?for instance, a double-explanation for the first work I think I?ll hang: double in that I?ll first give a little personal background, and explain very general things like making sure the viewer understands to do the long division, and relax and just absorb the images. word-sounds, ideas, without worrying about meaning; in the second I?ll explain my main meaning for each of the work?s elements.  

any latest experiment?

I?ve been dry for a month or so but hope to break out of it soon.  

any accessible anthology?

Andrew Topel just posted a small anthology of four sequences of mine at Seek Whences (hit ctrl and click to use).

any esotheric adenda?

You mean, ?esotheoric,? yes?  No recent ones.

Why should i miss AMY s  poetic readings? any archival video for last 14 March ?i hope not ides of March?

No comprende.

--Bob
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 19 14:44:01 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 11:44:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
In-Reply-To: <CABVBwJD5SO5Y8CjJN_2vuxVtVS1GtsT3e6o6=QuMJxPc+j6xzg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1332182641.3204.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

yes! the divisions often do seem unnecessary. The postmodernism I related to was Robert Venturi's Learning from Las Vegas. But that was about architecture. & accepting each vernacular for its given strengths ... including low brow. Venturi saw beauty in a trailor park, especially its functional aspects. A trailor park wasn't merely low brow, but necessary/functional/& beautiful. 

--- On Sun, 3/18/12, carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com> wrote:


From: carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Sunday, March 18, 2012, 11:07 AM




I would argue against mathematical poems as a separate "school" of poetry -- one can look at mathematical content and techniques (i.e. syllabics, metrics, many traditional forms) in a variety of poems. To me, partitioning poems that involve mathematics onto their own plane is an? unnecessary 



division. I think the symbols of mathematics, are just orthography -- while I find the use of them in poetry interesting, those poems are not necessarily mathematical. What I think is actually the hardest part of mathematical poetry is finding accessible forms and language for mathematical ideas, and in particular higher mathematics.

The Glaz and Growney Anthology Strange Attractors (which includes Bob) would be good starting point for this discussion.
?

Carol?
TalkingWriting.com
?
Here's a more detailed take on my perspective:

http://talkingwriting.com/?p=28311

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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From carol.dorf at gmail.com  Mon Mar 19 19:52:47 2012
From: carol.dorf at gmail.com (carol dorf)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 16:52:47 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
In-Reply-To: <1332182641.3204.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <CABVBwJD5SO5Y8CjJN_2vuxVtVS1GtsT3e6o6=QuMJxPc+j6xzg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1332182641.3204.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CABVBwJB0bkZ38cEz6LcpHkWA4fZi0MXN3L84FmKLQnzxvAzDpw@mail.gmail.com>

I like the parallel with Venturi's book.

On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 11:44 AM, stephen russell <
poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

> yes! the divisions often do seem unnecessary. The postmodernism I related
> to was Robert Venturi's *Learning from Las Vegas. *But that was about
> architecture. & accepting each vernacular for its given strengths ...
> including low brow. Venturi saw beauty in a trailor park, especially its
> functional aspects. A trailor park wasn't merely low brow, but
> necessary/functional/& beautiful.
>
> --- On *Sun, 3/18/12, carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com>
>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
> To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Date: Sunday, March 18, 2012, 11:07 AM
>
>
>  I would argue against mathematical poems as a separate "school" of
> poetry -- one can look at mathematical content and techniques (i.e.
> syllabics, metrics, many traditional forms) in a variety of poems. To me,
> partitioning poems that involve mathematics onto their own plane is an
> unnecessary division. I think the symbols of mathematics, are just
> orthography -- while I find the use of them in poetry interesting, those
> poems are not necessarily mathematical. What I think is actually the
> hardest part of mathematical poetry is finding accessible forms and
> language for mathematical ideas, and in particular higher mathematics.
>
> The Glaz and Growney Anthology *Strange Attractors* (which includes Bob)
> would be good starting point for this discussion.
>
>
> Carol
> TalkingWriting.com <http://talkingwriting.com/>
>
> Here's a more detailed take on my perspective:
>
> http://talkingwriting.com/?p=28311
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu<http://us.mc1619.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Carol Dorf
talkingwriting.com
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From jforjames at aol.com  Mon Mar 19 20:12:39 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2012 20:12:39 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine
In-Reply-To: <CABVBwJB0bkZ38cEz6LcpHkWA4fZi0MXN3L84FmKLQnzxvAzDpw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABVBwJD5SO5Y8CjJN_2vuxVtVS1GtsT3e6o6=QuMJxPc+j6xzg@mail.gmail.com><1332182641.3204.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<CABVBwJB0bkZ38cEz6LcpHkWA4fZi0MXN3L84FmKLQnzxvAzDpw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CED4454BA899CB-1804-13F59@webmail-d047.sysops.aol.com>


And Venturi quotes sometimes poets when he talks about architecture...
http://ursprache.blogspot.com/2009/03/tradition-not-by-habit.html 


Finnegan




-----Original Message-----
From: carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Mon, Mar 19, 2012 8:00 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine


I like the parallel with Venturi's book.


On Mon, Mar 19, 2012 at 11:44 AM, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:



yes! the divisions often do seem unnecessary. The postmodernism I related to was Robert Venturi's Learning from Las Vegas. But that was about architecture. & accepting each vernacular for its given strengths ... including low brow. Venturi saw beauty in a trailor park, especially its functional aspects. A trailor park wasn't merely low brow, but necessary/functional/& beautiful. 


--- On Sun, 3/18/12, carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com> wrote:


From: carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com>

Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Poem from Five Points, a Lit&Art Magazine

To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Sunday, March 18, 2012, 11:07 AM





I would argue against mathematical poems as a separate "school" of poetry -- one can look at mathematical content and techniques (i.e. syllabics, metrics, many traditional forms) in a variety of poems. To me, partitioning poems that involve mathematics onto their own plane is an  unnecessary division. I think the symbols of mathematics, are just orthography -- while I find the use of them in poetry interesting, those poems are not necessarily mathematical. What I think is actually the hardest part of mathematical poetry is finding accessible forms and language for mathematical ideas, and in particular higher mathematics.

The Glaz and Growney Anthology Strange Attractors (which includes Bob) would be good starting point for this discussion.
 

Carol 
TalkingWriting.com
 
Here's a more detailed take on my perspective:

http://talkingwriting.com/?p=28311




-----Inline Attachment Follows-----



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





-- 
Carol Dorf
talkingwriting.com



 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
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http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

 
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 20 14:29:15 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 11:29:15 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] guillotine
Message-ID: <1332268155.17678.YahooMailClassic@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

can anyone think of a better title?
?
It threatens the State
?
?
Show a man
how to use the guillotine,
& he'll be offered a job.
?
Show a man
how to build a guillotine, 
& he'll become a boss.

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From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 20 18:20:30 2012
From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow)
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2012 15:20:30 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: Publication Notification
In-Reply-To: <71B20887-E417-48D6-8587-9FF23A59EB6D@raintaxi.com>
References: <71B20887-E417-48D6-8587-9FF23A59EB6D@raintaxi.com>
Message-ID: <1332282030.56767.YahooMailNeo@web160101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Hi NewPo,
Here's my review of Macgregor Card's Duties of an English Foreign Secretary. Enjoy!
http://www.raintaxi.com/online/2011winter-2/card.php

Amicalement,
Alex
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 21 18:43:35 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 15:43:35 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] guillotine
In-Reply-To: <1332268155.17678.YahooMailClassic@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1332369815.53762.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

the --

Show a man
how to use the guillotine,
& he'll be offered a job.
?
Show a man
how to build a guillotine, 
& he'll become the boss.



--- On Tue, 3/20/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: [New-Poetry] guillotine
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Date: Tuesday, March 20, 2012, 2:29 PM

can anyone think of a better title?
?
It threatens the State
?
?
Show a man
how to use the guillotine,
& he'll be offered a job.
?
Show a man
how to build a guillotine, 
& he'll become a boss.


-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From sheilafblack at hotmail.com  Thu Mar 22 10:45:34 2012
From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 14:45:34 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] guillotine
In-Reply-To: <1332369815.53762.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1332268155.17678.YahooMailClassic@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>,
	<1332369815.53762.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <SNT135-W60A498E953A893AC2C66B9D4410@phx.gbl>


hah-ha!  I like this especially as I read the morning papers--sigh!

Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 15:43:35 -0700
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine

the --

Show a man
how to use the guillotine,
& he'll be offered a job.
 
Show a man
how to build a guillotine, 
& he'll become the boss.



--- On Tue, 3/20/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: [New-Poetry] guillotine
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Date: Tuesday, March 20, 2012, 2:29 PM

can anyone think of a better title?
 
It threatens the State
 
 
Show a man
how to use the guillotine,
& he'll be offered a job.
 
Show a man
how to build a guillotine, 
& he'll become a boss.


-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 		 	   		  
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From jforjames at aol.com  Thu Mar 22 12:12:10 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 12:12:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: [Mfa-alum] 12th Annual Juniper Literary Festival
In-Reply-To: <4F6B3300.10708@hfa.umass.edu>
References: <4F6B3300.10708@hfa.umass.edu>
Message-ID: <8CED65DAB516B20-23E0-14BB@webmail-m171.sysops.aol.com>


-----Original Message-----
From: MFA Poets and Writers <mfapoetsandwriters at hfa.umass.edu>
Sent: Thu, Mar 22, 2012 10:11 am
Subject: [Mfa-alum] 12th Annual Juniper Literary Festival


              
Announcing        the 12th Annual Juniper Literary Festival:
    
New        Writers/New Writing
    
April 13-14,        2012
    
 
    
Introducing audiences to the vibrant          landscape of new American poetry and fiction and exploring          issues essential to the future of American literature, the          Juniper Literary Festival: New Writers/New Writing features          readings by acclaimed emerging poets and writers, roundtables          on crucial creative and professional issues, an independent          journal and book fair showcasing a dazzling array of          publishing ventures, and a keynote reading by James Tate          celebrating the release of Eternal Ones of the            Dream: Later            Selected Poems. All events, held          at the UMass Fine Arts Center, are free and open to the          public.
    
 
    
In addition to James Tate, this          year's featured poets are: Macgregor Card, Julia Cohen,          Christopher DeWeese, Robert Fernandez, Paul Legault, and Anna          Moschovakis. The featured writers for this year are: Blake          Butler, Corwin Ericson, Amelia Gray, Julia Holmes, Anna Joy          Springer, and Vincent Standley. 
    
 
    
Schedule of Events
    
 
    
Friday, April 13
    
6:30 pm         JOURNAL & BOOK        FAIR opening reception\
    
7:30 pm                READING with Robert Fernandez, Amelia Gray, Anna        Moschovakis, & Vincent Standley
    
 
    
Saturday, April          14
    
11:30 am               JOURNAL & BOOK FAIR continues
    
12:00        pm       READING with        Christopher DeWeese, Corwin Ericson, Julia Holmes, & Paul        Legault
    
1:15 pm                ROUNDTABLES
    
                             Nuts & Bolts: From Manuscript to Book
    
                             moderated by Zach Savich
    
 
    
                             Digital Hybrids: How New Media Shape New          Writing
    
                             moderated by Blake Butler 
    
 
    
2:30 pm                ROUNDTABLES
    
   Editors'          Reading featuring bateau, Conjunctions, jubilat,        & No? Journal
    
 
    
                      Book/Art: The          Book As Collaborative Form
    
                             moderated by Guy Pettit
    
 
    
3:45        pm         READING with        Blake Butler, Macgregor Card, Julia Cohen, & Anna Joy        Springer
    
7:00 pm                JOURNAL & BOOK FAIR reopens
    
7:30          pm         KEYNOTE          READING with James Tate celebrating the publication of Eternal            Ones of the Dream:   
               Later Selected Poems
    
 
    
 
    
Inaugurated        in 2001 as the BigSmallPressFest, each year the Juniper Literary        Festival showcases exciting new writing and explores issues        vital to the literary arts, helping to ensure their vitality,        plurality, and accessibility. The Juniper Literary Festival is        made possible through the support of the Massachusetts Cultural        Council, UMass Arts Council, College of Humanities and Fine        Arts, and Vice Provost for Research and Engagement.
    
 
    
The        2012 Festival is co-sponsored by the UMass Fine Arts Center,        Amherst Books, Poets & Writers, and The Valley Advocate;        partner presses Canarium Books, Dark Coast Press, FC2, Factory        Hollow Press, Featherproof Books, FENCE Books, and Small Beer        Press; and sponsoring presses and organizations Black Ocean, Coffee House Press, The Common, the Council for        Literary Magazines and Presses, Dark Sky Magazine,        Hobart Books, Hugo House, Magic Helicopter Press, Kenyon Review, No? Journal,        Omnidawn, Sackett Street Writers, Wave Books, and Harvard        University's Woodberry Poetry Room.
    
 
    
 
    Complete      details and schedule are available at    http://umass.edu/english/MFA_JuniperFestival.htm.  
 
_______________________________________________
Mfa-alum mailing list
Mfa-alum at english.umass.edu
https://list.umass.edu/mailman/listinfo/mfa-alum

 
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 22 12:25:33 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 09:25:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] guillotine
In-Reply-To: <SNT135-W60A498E953A893AC2C66B9D4410@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <1332433533.58395.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

no more bourgeoisie reading ... action ... action ...

--- On Thu, 3/22/12, sheila black <sheilafblack at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: sheila black <sheilafblack at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Date: Thursday, March 22, 2012, 10:45 AM





hah-ha!&nbsp; I like this especially as I read the morning papers--sigh!

Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 15:43:35 -0700
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine

the --

Show a man
how to use the guillotine,
& he'll be offered a job.
?
Show a man
how to build a guillotine, 
& he'll become the boss.



--- On Tue, 3/20/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: [New-Poetry] guillotine
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Date: Tuesday, March 20, 2012, 2:29 PM

can anyone think of a better title?
?
It threatens the State
?
?
Show a man
how to use the guillotine,
& he'll be offered a job.
?
Show a man
how to build a guillotine, 
& he'll become a boss.


-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 22 12:42:53 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 09:42:53 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] guillotine
In-Reply-To: <1332433533.58395.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1332434573.6131.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>


moreover, too much coffee with the paper, and one may become afflicted with a





psy ... cho ... tic

???????????????????????????? 

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? k



b

?????????????? e

??? r????????? 

????????????????????? A

--- On Thu, 3/22/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Thursday, March 22, 2012, 12:25 PM

no more bourgeoisie reading ... action ... action ...

--- On Thu, 3/22/12, sheila black <sheilafblack at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: sheila black <sheilafblack at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Date: Thursday, March 22, 2012, 10:45 AM





hah-ha!&nbsp; I like this especially as I read the morning papers--sigh!

Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 15:43:35 -0700
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine

the --

Show a man
how to use the guillotine,
& he'll be offered a job.
?
Show a man
how to build a guillotine, 
& he'll become the boss.



--- On Tue, 3/20/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: [New-Poetry] guillotine
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Date: Tuesday, March 20, 2012, 2:29 PM

can anyone think of a better title?
?
It threatens the State
?
?
Show a man
how to use the guillotine,
& he'll be offered a job.
?
Show a man
how to build a guillotine, 
& he'll become a boss.


-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

_______________________________________________
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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 		 	   		  

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

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-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 22 12:46:42 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 09:46:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] guillotine
In-Reply-To: <1332434573.6131.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1332434802.13429.YahooMailClassic@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

the t should actually be a ... t


--- On Thu, 3/22/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Thursday, March 22, 2012, 12:42 PM


moreover, too much coffee with the paper, and one may become afflicted with a





psy ... cho ... tic

???????????????????????????? 

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? k



b

?????????????? e

??? r????????? 

????????????????????? A

--- On Thu, 3/22/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Thursday, March 22, 2012, 12:25 PM

no more bourgeoisie reading ... action ... action ...

--- On Thu, 3/22/12, sheila black <sheilafblack at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: sheila black <sheilafblack at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Date: Thursday, March 22, 2012, 10:45 AM





hah-ha!&nbsp; I like this especially as I read the morning papers--sigh!

Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 15:43:35 -0700
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine

the --

Show a man
how to use the guillotine,
& he'll be offered a job.
?
Show a man
how to build a guillotine, 
& he'll become the boss.



--- On Tue, 3/20/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: [New-Poetry] guillotine
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Date: Tuesday, March 20, 2012, 2:29 PM

can anyone think of a better title?
?
It threatens the State
?
?
Show a man
how to use the guillotine,
& he'll be offered a job.
?
Show a man
how to build a guillotine, 
& he'll become a boss.


-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 		 	   		  

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

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New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
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http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 22 12:47:46 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 09:47:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] guillotine
In-Reply-To: <1332434802.13429.YahooMailClassic@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1332434866.82495.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

no, a t

--- On Thu, 3/22/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Thursday, March 22, 2012, 12:46 PM

the t should actually be a ... t


--- On Thu, 3/22/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Thursday, March 22, 2012, 12:42 PM


moreover, too much coffee with the paper, and one may become afflicted with a





psy ... cho ... tic

???????????????????????????? 

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? k



b

?????????????? e

??? r????????? 

????????????????????? A

--- On Thu, 3/22/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Thursday, March 22, 2012, 12:25 PM

no more bourgeoisie reading ... action ... action ...

--- On Thu, 3/22/12, sheila black <sheilafblack at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: sheila black <sheilafblack at hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Date: Thursday, March 22, 2012, 10:45 AM





hah-ha!&nbsp; I like this especially as I read the morning papers--sigh!

Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 15:43:35 -0700
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine

the --

Show a man
how to use the guillotine,
& he'll be offered a job.
?
Show a man
how to build a guillotine, 
& he'll become the boss.



--- On Tue, 3/20/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: [New-Poetry] guillotine
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Date: Tuesday, March 20, 2012, 2:29 PM

can anyone think of a better title?
?
It threatens the State
?
?
Show a man
how to use the guillotine,
& he'll be offered a job.
?
Show a man
how to build a guillotine, 
& he'll become a boss.


-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 		 	   		  

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

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New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

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New-Poetry mailing list
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-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
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 mailing list
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http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From carol.dorf at gmail.com  Thu Mar 22 15:21:14 2012
From: carol.dorf at gmail.com (carol dorf)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 12:21:14 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] guillotine
In-Reply-To: <1332433533.58395.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <SNT135-W60A498E953A893AC2C66B9D4410@phx.gbl>
	<1332433533.58395.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CABVBwJBv+J7VVmFLhChfQzkBBnBi0qOuKBz2qOWpMgx4Q6dzuA@mail.gmail.com>

The          action      faction

(or FRACTION)



On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 9:25 AM, stephen russell <
poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

> no more bourgeoisie reading ... action ... action ...
>
> --- On *Thu, 3/22/12, sheila black <sheilafblack at hotmail.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: sheila black <sheilafblack at hotmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Date: Thursday, March 22, 2012, 10:45 AM
>
>  hah-ha!&nbsp; I like this especially as I read the morning papers--sigh!
>
> ------------------------------
> Date: Wed, 21 Mar 2012 15:43:35 -0700
> From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine
>
> the --
>
> Show a man
> how to use the guillotine,
> & he'll be offered a job.
>
> Show a man
> how to build a guillotine,
> & he'll become the boss.
>
>
>
> --- On *Tue, 3/20/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>*wrote:
>
>
> From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] guillotine
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Date: Tuesday, March 20, 2012, 2:29 PM
>
> can anyone think of a better title?
>
> It threatens the State
>
>
> Show a man
> how to use the guillotine,
> & he'll be offered a job.
>
> Show a man
> how to build a guillotine,
> & he'll become a boss.
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu<http://mc/compose?to=New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Carol Dorf
talkingwriting.com
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Thu Mar 22 17:59:20 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 22:59:20 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Beyond Baroque--For Japan
In-Reply-To: <fxzQxgQe.1332093995.3165520.ahadada@gol.com>
References: <fxzQxgQe.1332093995.3165520.ahadada@gol.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyQC-gRpxWonNBirMfkY5aT4a8yK+WiZwqD5XipH=-Qrgw@mail.gmail.com>

Congratulations! Nobody thought of recording the event and put it online,
or?
Best,

Anny

On Sun, Mar 18, 2012 at 7:06 PM, <ahadada at gol.com> wrote:

> Went really well. Good people showed up--including Kasia Daley--hadn't
> seen her for six, seven years. Jerry Rothenberg and Hiromi Ito were
> stars--Amy Yuematsu was really fine, Marthe Reed's reading was fine
> indeed.  the fine poet/translator Jen Hofer declined the spotlight, but
> she's always welcome to return.  All's great at Venice Beach!  Digging
> Day of the Dead skulls & a wonderful bookstore--fantastic poetry
> selection--called Small World Bookshop.
>
> My book TWO is now available from Knives Forks and Spoons Press
> (U.K.)--see their website.
>
> Jess of Japan
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 22 18:35:14 2012
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 15:35:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Even these men read, What She Said ...
Message-ID: <1332455714.49900.YahooMailNeo@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

>From Sententia 4 - 

chop

yam on stove, water jug ready, spicket
bath, rag tied.? groggy hands can?t be
no stumbln block.? nor suckln babe to
tend.? sun be waitn his turn, watchn
me beat him to field.? cotton is
calln.? if five hundred pounds mean a
bale, how negroes be called ?no count??

--Treasure Shields Redmond


~~~~~


Moody?s Mood for Love

??????? for Amy Winehouse

Sometimes a woman knows 
what the nightingale?s tongue tastes like ?
a woman who unfastens smoke 
in her vein. A flat chord. You 
hunt starlings in God?s mouth.
A starlight only Stella 
might have named. 
Sometimes a woman knows 
she lives in her knees first. 
I sing a little song about the crooked teeth 
of a good man who had fists of butter... 

--Remainder of poem by Rachel Eliza Griffiths, continued in Sententia 4




SENTENTIA 4
What She Said: The All Women Writers Issue 
164 pages
edited by Paula Bomer, Amy King (poetry) and Jen Michalski (fiction)
$10 (+$2 shipping)



Including work by: 

Betsy Boyd, Ana Bozicevic, Mikita Brottman, Megan Calhoun, Ching-in 
Chen, Andrea DeAngelis, Kathy Flann, Sherrie Flick, Heather Fowler, Ana 
Garcia Begua, Rachel Eliza Griffiths, Jen Grow, Toshiya Kamei, Elise 
Levine, Sara Lippmann, Khadijah Queen, Treasure Shields Redmond, Metta 
Sama, Ellen McGrath Smith, Sara Jane Stoner, Meg Tuite, Carolyn 
Zaikowski, Darija Zilic??

http://sententiabooks.com/?p=257



?Even these men read, What She Said ... [here - http://www.flickr.com/photos/amyking/6860840920/in/photostream ]


From jforjames at aol.com  Thu Mar 22 19:10:35 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 19:10:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Juan Felipe Herrera appointed California poet laureate
Message-ID: <8CED6981F61FF72-B74-5BF8@webmail-d171.sysops.aol.com>


http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/jacketcopy/2012/03/juan-felipe-herrera-california-poet-laureate.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+JacketCopy+(Jacket+Copy)


Juan Felipe Herrera was appointed California poet laureate by Gov. Jerry Brown on Wednesday. 


After  the required confirmation by the California Senate, Herrera will be the first Hispanic writer to serve in the post.


Herrera currently holds the Tomas Rivera Endowed Chair in the department of creative writing at UC Riverside. In addition to works of poetry, his 23 books include

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From jforjames at aol.com  Thu Mar 22 19:23:50 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 19:23:50 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] poet laureate of limbo
Message-ID: <8CED699F8E2697D-B74-5D34@webmail-d171.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/caryn-mirriamgoldberg/poet-laureate-of-limbo_b_1370536.html


I am the poet laureate both of Kansas and limbo. How Kansas led to limbo entailed the political equivalent of something we're known for on the ground and in The Wizard of Oz: sudden changes in the weather. When Governor Sam Brownback took office in January, 2011, one of his first orders was to abolish the state arts agency, the Kansas Arts Commission (KAC) that houses the poet laureate program. 

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From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com  Fri Mar 23 00:14:53 2012
From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly)
Date: Thu, 22 Mar 2012 21:14:53 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] CFParticipation
Message-ID: <CAFq5sq_EHvz=di5vkaExk3uzEYoYxEWzt7yqeJC1VfkLT9rHGg@mail.gmail.com>

June 9 &10: Small Press Festival at Beyond Baroque
Beyond Baroque will host the Small Press Festival formerly held at the
Church in Ocean Park. One weekend in June small press publishers' from
around the states will gather to show off their publications and
authors. Publishers booths will be set up on the lawn, presentations
will be held in the theater and signings will be upstairs in the Mike
Kelley Gallery. Small press publishers who would like to reserve a
table or schedule a reading please contact us at:

bbsmallpressfest at beyondbaroque.org


From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Fri Mar 23 08:47:00 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 13:47:00 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] poet laureate of limbo
In-Reply-To: <8CED699F8E2697D-B74-5D34@webmail-d171.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CED699F8E2697D-B74-5D34@webmail-d171.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsySvJxKx2DnH5JaHwLGDTj=OTiM1GmU2DJwYyHXyb=n9sw@mail.gmail.com>

>From the disastrous Italian Limbo, I would like to remember that the Only
Poet Laureate of Italy was Dante, ....
but just because one artist (cannot dig up who) decided to depict Dante
with a laurel crown, conferred to emperors and poets, Wikipedia in Italian
tells me that it is usually depicted on Dante's, Cesar's and Napoleon's
heads.

So long, ...

On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 12:23 AM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:

>
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/caryn-mirriamgoldberg/poet-laureate-of-limbo_b_1370536.html
>
>  I am the poet laureate both of Kansas and limbo. How Kansas led to limbo
> entailed the political equivalent of something we're known for on the
> ground and in The Wizard of Oz: sudden changes in the weather. When
> Governor Sam Brownback took office in January, 2011, one of his first
> orders was to abolish the state arts agency, the Kansas Arts Commission
> (KAC) that houses the poet laureate program.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Fri Mar 23 08:50:40 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 13:50:40 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lisbeth Salander
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyTZ1YLgOU=FYZu7ykJbrr6bCm71SeqQk6gca_Qvk1_0oA@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, I fell into the trap of Stieg Larsson's work, and bought the second
tome for Kindle on amazon.com at midnight last night, not wanting to wait
for the book to arrive, and without a kindle (they send you the file for
pc...) - having gulped down the first book and looking for more,
and yes, as probably many did before me, I googled the following, and here
is the surprise:

http://harvardpress.typepad.com/hup_publicity/2009/02/dimensions-in-mathematics-a-phantom-a-chimera.html

-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 23 11:28:29 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 08:28:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] guillotine 11
Message-ID: <1332516509.47901.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>



Guillotine II


Once finished, 
the guillotine must be tested.

There are five fingers
on each hand.

Behind closed doors,
the major appears nervous.

Soon
he'll appear before the press.

Note
the glitter,

the clamor
of rumors spreading fast.

The major
wears five rings.

Perfect.
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 23 11:50:05 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 08:50:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Guillotine III
Message-ID: <1332517805.62042.YahooMailClassic@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Guillotine III


Some say the guillotine is obsolete. 

These men haven't held a hammer.

They'll learn. 
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 23 12:06:04 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 09:06:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Guillotine III
In-Reply-To: <1332517805.62042.YahooMailClassic@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1332518764.19469.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

correction: some men --

Guillotine III

Some men say the guillotine is obsolete. 

These men haven't held a hammer.

They'll learn. 



--- On Fri, 3/23/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: [New-Poetry] Guillotine III
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Date: Friday, March 23, 2012, 11:50 AM

Guillotine III


Some say the guillotine is obsolete. 

These men haven't held a hammer.

They'll learn. 

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From ahadada at gol.com  Fri Mar 23 13:23:22 2012
From: ahadada at gol.com (ahadada at gol.com)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 17:23:22 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] For Japan was documented
Message-ID: <UkXJphaC.1332523402.7631940.ahadada@gol.com>

plans to make it available are in the works, anny.  jess




From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 23 14:26:32 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 11:26:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] guillotine 11
In-Reply-To: <1332516509.47901.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1332527192.17963.YahooMailClassic@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

correction: it's mayor, not major
?
Guillotine II


Once finished, 
the guillotine must be tested.

There are five fingers
on each hand.

Behind closed doors,
the mayor appears nervous.

Soon
he'll appear before the press.

Note
the glitter,

the clamor
of rumors spreading fast.

The mayor
wears five rings.

Perfect.

?


--- On Fri, 3/23/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:


From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: [New-Poetry] guillotine 11
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Date: Friday, March 23, 2012, 11:28 AM













Guillotine II


Once finished, 
the guillotine must be tested.

There are five fingers
on each hand.

Behind closed doors,
the major appears nervous.

Soon
he'll appear before the press.

Note
the glitter,

the clamor
of rumors spreading fast.

The major
wears five rings.

Perfect.

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From cervantes.james at gmail.com  Fri Mar 23 18:22:18 2012
From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 15:22:18 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: LIVE FROM LA: HINCHAS #6 IS ON THE AIR!
In-Reply-To: <1332538377.74345.YahooMailNeo@web112107.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
References: <1332335843.15035.YahooMailNeo@web112116.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<1332517605.96104.YahooMailNeo@web112104.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<1332538377.74345.YahooMailNeo@web112107.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CADkt4seTTLwbS4gB2j4P=cJtBWpzw3Cj479frUtL_CPsuqOBCw@mail.gmail.com>

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: ja hawley <earwicker6501 at yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 2:32 PM
Subject: LIVE FROM LA: HINCHAS #6 IS ON THE AIR!




www.hinchasdepoesia.com

Dear Colleagues:

We are pleased to present the sixth on-line issue of *Hinchas de Poes?a *
featuring* *poems & translations by Luis Raul Calvo & Flavia Cosma & poems
in translation by Tomaz Salamun.  Other poets include Gerard Beirne, Manny
Moreno, Halvard Johnson & Annette Cruz; poems by Jessica Ceballos appear in
*Hinchas* for the first time anywhere. We have photographs by Marcin
Majkowski, an interview with Laura Moulton of Street Books in Portland; a
review of an exhibition of Surrealist Women Artists in Mexico and the
United States, currently on view at the Los Angeles County Museum of Art; &
our Poetry Editor offers his thoughts on his recent experience at the AWP
conference in Chicago.

To view the issue, click the link above. Once you get to the site click on
"Issue." Due to the vagaries of the numerous available browsers  we
recommend that you refresh the page before continuing.

We encourage to you freely share *Hinchas #6* with your peers, associates,
colleagues, listservs, friends, students, parents, neighbors or even
complete strangers. We'd like you to help us spread the word far & wide. *
Hinchas* is interested in establishing a network of concerned & engaged
writers.

If you find that you've received this announcement & would prefer not to
receive further notices from *Hinchas*, please e-mail me & I'll remove your
name from our distribution list. If you know of others who might find our
publication of interest, feel free to forward this to them or let me know &
I'll include them in future communications.

?Guzarlos!

Yago S. Cura, Publisher
Jim Heavily, Poetry Editor

 .
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 23 21:42:22 2012
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Fri, 23 Mar 2012 18:42:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Writ in Water -
Message-ID: <1332553342.7027.YahooMailNeo@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

?? Drop 1, Drop 2, Drop 3 ...

PEN American Round - Up -- http://www.pen.org/blog/?p=10198#more-10198


From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sat Mar 24 03:23:50 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 08:23:50 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: LIVE FROM LA: HINCHAS #6 IS ON THE AIR!
In-Reply-To: <CADkt4seTTLwbS4gB2j4P=cJtBWpzw3Cj479frUtL_CPsuqOBCw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1332335843.15035.YahooMailNeo@web112116.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<1332517605.96104.YahooMailNeo@web112104.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<1332538377.74345.YahooMailNeo@web112107.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
	<CADkt4seTTLwbS4gB2j4P=cJtBWpzw3Cj479frUtL_CPsuqOBCw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyTXH0QV57ZFhmu9ditJiQ1sKSrD2hwPC3U16ji=X+KioQ@mail.gmail.com>

Great!

On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 11:22 PM, James Cervantes <cervantes.james at gmail.com
> wrote:

>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: ja hawley <earwicker6501 at yahoo.com>
> Date: Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 2:32 PM
> Subject: LIVE FROM LA: HINCHAS #6 IS ON THE AIR!
>
>
>
>
>     www.hinchasdepoesia.com
>
> Dear Colleagues:
>
> We are pleased to present the sixth on-line issue of *Hinchas de Poes?a *
> featuring* *poems & translations by Luis Raul Calvo & Flavia Cosma
> & poems in translation by Tomaz Salamun.  Other poets include Gerard
> Beirne, Manny Moreno, Halvard Johnson & Annette Cruz; poems by Jessica
> Ceballos appear in *Hinchas* for the first time anywhere. We have
> photographs by Marcin Majkowski, an interview with Laura Moulton of Street
> Books in Portland; a review of an exhibition of Surrealist Women Artists in
> Mexico and the United States, currently on view at the Los Angeles County
> Museum of Art; & our Poetry Editor offers his thoughts on his recent
> experience at the AWP conference in Chicago.
>
> To view the issue, click the link above. Once you get to the site click on
> "Issue." Due to the vagaries of the numerous available browsers  we
> recommend that you refresh the page before continuing.
>
> We encourage to you freely share *Hinchas #6* with your peers,
> associates, colleagues, listservs, friends, students, parents, neighbors or
> even complete strangers. We'd like you to help us spread the word far &
> wide. *Hinchas* is interested in establishing a network of concerned &
> engaged writers.
>
> If you find that you've received this announcement & would prefer not to
> receive further notices from *Hinchas*, please e-mail me & I'll remove
> your name from our distribution list. If you know of others who might find
> our publication of interest, feel free to forward this to them or let me
> know & I'll include them in future communications.
>
> ?Guzarlos!
>
> Yago S. Cura, Publisher
> Jim Heavily, Poetry Editor
>
>  .
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From jforjames at aol.com  Sat Mar 24 10:34:25 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 10:34:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Art of Chinese Poetry
Message-ID: <8CED7E258941B17-1E28-C44F@web-mmc-d10.sysops.aol.com>


I read a good short treatise on Chinese poetics recently. The Art of Chinese Poetry by James J. Y. Liu. Published back in '62 and '66 by Univ. of Chicago Press. The one chapter dealing with meter patterns and rime was a little abstruse, but other than that I highly recommend it. Here's a quote...


>From the concepts of ?emotion and scene? and ?spirit and tone?, Wang Kuo-wei derived his theory of ?worlds? in poetry. The term I have translated as ?world?, ching-chieh, is itself a translation of the Sanskrit word visaya, which in Buddhist terminology means ?sphere? or ?spiritual domain?. Wang Kuo-wei was not the first to apply it to poetry, but he was the first to use it systematically and to give it something like a definition:

     The ?world? does not refer to scenes and objects only; joy, anger, sadness, and happiness also form a world in a human heart. Therefore poetry that can describe true scenes and true emotions may be said to ?have a world?; otherwise it may be said ?not to have a world?.

This ?world? is in fact a fusion of emotion and scene, and the concept is obviously derived from Wang Fu-chih?s ?emotion and scene?, though now given a new name. Wang Kuo-wei distinguishes those who ?create worlds? in poetry from those who only ?describe? them:

     There are some (poets) who create worlds, and others who describe worlds.

 ?James J. Y. Liu, The Art of Chinese Poetry (Univ. of Chicago Press, 1966) 


--
Finnegan
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 24 10:54:12 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 07:54:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] guillotine !v
Message-ID: <1332600852.16568.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>


Guillotine IV 
? 
? 
In the tent 
next to mine, Roberto yammers on... 
? 
Christ this. 
Christ that. 
? 
That's Roberto.  
"Whatsoever you do to these,
?
the least of my brothers,
you do unto me."
???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 
A good man, 
Roberto will pray for each of us. 
?? 
Roberto's silver cross 
gleams 
? 
with the luster 
of a tropical sun. 
? 
As beautiful 
as the blade of the guillotine.  

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Mar 24 12:29:06 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 12:29:06 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] guillotine !v
In-Reply-To: <1332600852.16568.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1332600852.16568.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <87613A49649043FBA67C61CC8295553F@BobHP>

Hmmm, getting interesting.  I?m reminded (and this is a compliment) of Wally?s 13 ways . . . 

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 10:54 AM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Subject: [New-Poetry] guillotine !v



            Guillotine IV 



            In the tent 

            next to mine, Roberto yammers on... 


            Christ this. 

            Christ that. 


            That's Roberto. 

            "Whatsoever you do to these, 


            the least of my brothers, 

            you do unto me." 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                     

            A good man, 

            Roberto will pray for each of us. 

              

            Roberto's silver cross 

            gleams 


            with the luster 

            of a tropical sun. 


            As beautiful 

            as the blade of the guillotine. 

           
     



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 24 12:32:40 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 09:32:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] guillotine !v
In-Reply-To: <87613A49649043FBA67C61CC8295553F@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1332606760.37986.YahooMailClassic@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

I'm almost afraid to ask, but I'll ask anyway __________ what are "Wally's 13 ways"?

--- On Sat, 3/24/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine !v
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 24, 2012, 12:29 PM





Hmmm, getting interesting.? I?m reminded (and this is a compliment) of 
Wally?s 13 ways . . . 


?

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Saturday, March 24, 2012 10:54 AM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Subject: [New-Poetry] guillotine !v
?


  
  
    
      
      
        
        
          

            Guillotine 
            IV 
            
            
            In the 
            tent 
            next to mine, 
            Roberto yammers on... 
            
            Christ 
            this. 
            Christ 
            that. 
            
            That's Roberto. 
            
            "Whatsoever you 
            do to these, 
            
            the least of my 
            brothers, 
            you do unto 
            me." 
            ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 
            ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? 
            ? 

            A good 
            man, 
            Roberto will pray 
            for each of us. 
            ? 

            Roberto's silver 
            cross 
            gleams 

            
            with the 
            luster 
            of a tropical 
            sun. 
            
            As 
            beautiful 
            as the blade of 
            the guillotine. 
  



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list
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http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Mar 24 14:25:29 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 14:25:29 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] guillotine !v
In-Reply-To: <1332606760.37986.YahooMailClassic@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1332606760.37986.YahooMailClassic@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <79261B4BC27E44D399745A7766E59D4B@BobHP>

      I'm almost afraid to ask, but I'll ask anyway __________ what are "Wally's 13 ways"?
      .
      Ask Finnegan.  I?ll tell you if he won?t.

      --Bob 
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 24 16:27:24 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 13:27:24 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] guillotine !v
In-Reply-To: <79261B4BC27E44D399745A7766E59D4B@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1332620844.64995.YahooMailClassic@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

For that evasive responce you deserve...(see next newpoetry post) --

--- On Sat, 3/24/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine !v
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 24, 2012, 2:25 PM














  
  
    
      I'm almost afraid to ask, but I'll ask anyway __________ what are 
      "Wally's 13 ways"?
      .
      Ask Finnegan.? I?ll tell you if he won?t.
      ?
      --Bob

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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 24 16:28:23 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 13:28:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] guillotine !v
In-Reply-To: <79261B4BC27E44D399745A7766E59D4B@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1332620903.1214.YahooMailClassic@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

that is, specifically refering to the guillotine --

--- On Sat, 3/24/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine !v
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 24, 2012, 2:25 PM














  
  
    
      I'm almost afraid to ask, but I'll ask anyway __________ what are 
      "Wally's 13 ways"?
      .
      Ask Finnegan.? I?ll tell you if he won?t.
      ?
      --Bob

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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 24 16:32:22 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 13:32:22 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] guillotine !v
In-Reply-To: <1332620844.64995.YahooMailClassic@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1332621142.72639.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

correction: response

--- On Sat, 3/24/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine !v
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 24, 2012, 4:27 PM

For that evasive responce you deserve...(see next newpoetry post) --

--- On Sat, 3/24/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine !v
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 24, 2012, 2:25 PM














  
  
    
      I'm almost afraid to ask, but I'll ask anyway __________ what are 
      "Wally's 13 ways"?
      .
      Ask Finnegan.? I?ll tell you if he won?t.
      ?
      --Bob

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http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 24 16:36:03 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 13:36:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] guillotine !v
In-Reply-To: <1332621142.72639.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1332621363.45812.YahooMailClassic@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

it's a rather harsh response.
but a good poem. 

hopefully, to evolve into a book.
no, its destiny is to be a great book. 


--- On Sat, 3/24/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine !v
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 24, 2012, 4:32 PM

correction: response

--- On Sat, 3/24/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine !v
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 24, 2012, 4:27 PM

For that evasive responce you deserve...(see next newpoetry post) --

--- On Sat, 3/24/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

From: bob grumman
 <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine !v
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 24, 2012, 2:25 PM














  
  
    
      I'm almost afraid to ask, but I'll ask anyway __________ what are 
      "Wally's 13 ways"?
      .
      Ask Finnegan.? I?ll tell you if he won?t.
      ?
      --Bob

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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 24 16:38:59 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 13:38:59 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] guillotine !v
In-Reply-To: <1332621363.45812.YahooMailClassic@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1332621539.93109.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

as i was saying, responding in a guillotine manner of speaking ...

--- On Sat, 3/24/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine !v
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 24, 2012, 4:36 PM

it's a rather harsh response.
but a good poem. 

hopefully, to evolve into a book.
no, its destiny is to be a great book. 


--- On Sat, 3/24/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine !v
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 24, 2012, 4:32 PM

correction: response

--- On Sat, 3/24/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine !v
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 24, 2012, 4:27 PM

For that evasive responce you deserve...(see next newpoetry post) --

--- On Sat, 3/24/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

From: bob grumman
 <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine !v
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 24, 2012, 2:25 PM














  
  
    
      I'm almost afraid to ask, but I'll ask anyway __________ what are 
      "Wally's 13 ways"?
      .
      Ask Finnegan.? I?ll tell you if he won?t.
      ?
      --Bob

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 mailing list
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 24 16:30:58 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 13:30:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] 4th guillotine
Message-ID: <1332621058.10465.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

The Fourth Gospel of The Guillotine


I am not unlike Roberto.
I too am willing to die

for a cause.

But unlike Roberto,

I am willing to kill
for a cause.

The guillotine
is a necessary tool.

Not unlike the cross.
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 24 16:41:36 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Sat, 24 Mar 2012 13:41:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] guillotine !v
Message-ID: <1332621696.7025.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

& entitled

The Fourth Gospel of The Guillotine

Brace yourself, Bob.

--- On Sat, 3/24/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine !v
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 24, 2012, 4:38 PM

as i was saying, responding in a guillotine manner of speaking ...

--- On Sat, 3/24/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
 wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine !v
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 24, 2012, 4:36 PM

it's a rather harsh response.
but a good poem. 

hopefully, to evolve into a book.
no, its destiny is to be a great book. 


--- On Sat, 3/24/12, stephen russell
 <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine !v
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 24, 2012, 4:32 PM

correction: response

--- On Sat, 3/24/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine !v
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 24, 2012, 4:27 PM

For that evasive responce you deserve...(see next newpoetry post) --

--- On Sat, 3/24/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

From: bob grumman
 <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] guillotine !v
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 24, 2012, 2:25 PM














  
  
    
      I'm almost afraid to ask, but I'll ask anyway __________ what are 
      "Wally's 13 ways"?
      .
      Ask Finnegan.? I?ll tell you if he won?t.
      ?
      --Bob

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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Sun Mar 25 13:41:04 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 10:41:04 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Didion/Draper/Lurie
Message-ID: <1332697264.24589.YahooMailClassic@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

The poet, painter, Bobbi Lurie, turns to the essay. We need more than one Joan Didion --

The reason you haven?t felt it is because it doesn?t exist. What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.


http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/don-draper-is-america/
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Mar 25 15:48:33 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Sun, 25 Mar 2012 15:48:33 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Didion/Draper/Lurie
In-Reply-To: <1332697264.24589.YahooMailClassic@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1332697264.24589.YahooMailClassic@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <2250A50F25484C0BBB7A905E9E6C01AC@BobHP>

If you still don?t know what my reference was to, Stephen, here?s a hint: what poet is Finnegan associated most with?

--Bob

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 1:41 PM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Didion/Draper/Lurie

            The poet, painter, Bobbi Lurie, turns to the essay. We need more than one Joan Didion --

            The reason you haven?t felt it is because it doesn?t exist. What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.


            http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/don-draper-is-america/
           
     



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From theoldmole at gmail.com  Mon Mar 26 09:54:45 2012
From: theoldmole at gmail.com (Tad Richards)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 09:54:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] poet laureate of limbo
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsySvJxKx2DnH5JaHwLGDTj=OTiM1GmU2DJwYyHXyb=n9sw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CED699F8E2697D-B74-5D34@webmail-d171.sysops.aol.com>
	<CA+9UsySvJxKx2DnH5JaHwLGDTj=OTiM1GmU2DJwYyHXyb=n9sw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAAy7y5QCzdsHpNVp2ki7+EM7JK_pe1OB7UWdeCdgck8vELWFvg@mail.gmail.com>

I found this a painfully sad story.

On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 8:47 AM, Anny Ballardini
<anny.ballardini at gmail.com>wrote:

> From the disastrous Italian Limbo, I would like to remember that the Only
> Poet Laureate of Italy was Dante, ....
> but just because one artist (cannot dig up who) decided to depict Dante
> with a laurel crown, conferred to emperors and poets, Wikipedia in Italian
> tells me that it is usually depicted on Dante's, Cesar's and Napoleon's
> heads.
>
> So long, ...
>
> On Fri, Mar 23, 2012 at 12:23 AM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/caryn-mirriamgoldberg/poet-laureate-of-limbo_b_1370536.html
>>
>>  I am the poet laureate both of Kansas and limbo. How Kansas led to
>> limbo entailed the political equivalent of something we're known for on the
>> ground and in The Wizard of Oz: sudden changes in the weather. When
>> Governor Sam Brownback took office in January, 2011, one of his first
>> orders was to abolish the state arts agency, the Kansas Arts Commission
>> (KAC) that houses the poet laureate program.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From theoldmole at gmail.com  Mon Mar 26 09:57:31 2012
From: theoldmole at gmail.com (Tad Richards)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 09:57:31 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Juan Felipe Herrera appointed California poet
	laureate
In-Reply-To: <8CED6981F61FF72-B74-5BF8@webmail-d171.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CED6981F61FF72-B74-5BF8@webmail-d171.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAAy7y5Rtou1Ly6aBH-W3=05Vkidj+9jQvZ53BHWes-DYe1mqsg@mail.gmail.com>

tomorrow I leave to El Paso, Texas
by Juan Felipe Herrera

see my brother-in-law with a styled shirt

in spite of his cancer below

then a small dinner in the evening the next day

no one knows except I may be on the road

Mesquite where my father settled in '31

forty-five minutes west then a left you go in

sister Sarita waits for me on Abby Street

after decades in separate families we just met

now I hear the clock snap I swipe an ant

time to walk my dogs five blocks and back

a different route to soothe the mind

it is the same one but I am hopeful

On Thu, Mar 22, 2012 at 7:10 PM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:

>
> http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/jacketcopy/2012/03/juan-felipe-herrera-california-poet-laureate.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+JacketCopy+(Jacket+Copy)<http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/jacketcopy/2012/03/juan-felipe-herrera-california-poet-laureate.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+JacketCopy+%28Jacket+Copy%29>
>
>  Juan Felipe Herrera was appointed California poet laureate by Gov. Jerry
> Brown on Wednesday.
>
>  After  the required confirmation by the California Senate, Herrera will
> be the first Hispanic writer to serve in the post.
>
>  Herrera currently holds the Tomas Rivera Endowed Chair in the department
> of creative writing at UC Riverside. In addition to works of poetry, his 23
> books include
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 26 14:11:09 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 11:11:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Didion/Draper/Lurie
Message-ID: <1332785469.99697.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>





guess I should?say something (why?)?... Finnegan's Wake? ...?with my usual (haven't a clue) bravado, I'll?say ... but?why repeat the offense? ...are you talking about a living mortal? ...?James Finnegan? that mortal?

--- On Sun, 3/25/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Didion/Draper/Lurie
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Sunday, March 25, 2012, 3:48 PM






If you still don?t know what my reference was to, Stephen, here?s a hint: what poet is Finnegan associated most with?
?
--Bob


?

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Sunday, March 25, 2012 1:41 PM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Didion/Draper/Lurie
?









The poet, painter, Bobbi Lurie, turns to the essay. We need more than one Joan Didion --

The reason you haven?t felt it is because it doesn?t exist. What you call love was invented by guys like me, to sell nylons.


http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/don-draper-is-america/



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Mon Mar 26 14:46:53 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 20:46:53 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Fairy Tales!
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyR8myMsA6Y0pv0_s77QZ2n5Lp-RPDMHA8tAtxY+gO_ODQ@mail.gmail.com>

and a lot of them:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/mar/05/five-hundred-fairytales-discovered-germany?INTCMP=SRCH


For example, there is the tale of a maiden who escapes a witch by
transforming herself into a pond. The witch then lies on her stomach and
drinks all the water, swallowing the young girl, who uses a knife to cut
her way out of the witch.

-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Mar 26 14:56:20 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 14:56:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Didion/Draper/Lurie
In-Reply-To: <1332785469.99697.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1332785469.99697.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B9370EA55FB5416CBA1D783A353BCF70@BobHP>


            guess I should say something (why?) ... Finnegan's Wake? ... with my usual (haven't a clue) bravado, I'll say ... but why repeat the offense? ...are you talking about a living mortal? ... James Finnegan? that mortal?
           

      Weird, Stephen?you?re not the only person I?ve not been getting through to these past few days. Mercury must be afflicting my larynx.  Anyway, I forgot about Joyce?s Finnegans; I meant our leader James.  The poet most associated with him lived where, or near where he does.  A Hartford poet.  Something about a line of yours sharply reminded me of his way of writing.  Which I greatly admire.
      --Bob 

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Mar 26 14:57:57 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 14:57:57 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Fairy Tales!
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsyR8myMsA6Y0pv0_s77QZ2n5Lp-RPDMHA8tAtxY+gO_ODQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9UsyR8myMsA6Y0pv0_s77QZ2n5Lp-RPDMHA8tAtxY+gO_ODQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <318C9A3B2BE642DF93FE3F136DEAF810@BobHP>



From: Anny Ballardini 
Sent: Monday, March 26, 2012 2:46 PM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views 
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Fairy Tales!

and a lot of them:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/mar/05/five-hundred-fairytales-discovered-germany?INTCMP=SRCH


For example, there is the tale of a maiden who escapes a witch by transforming herself into a pond. The witch then lies on her stomach and drinks all the water, swallowing the young girl, who uses a knife to cut her way out of the witch. 

How impatient of her: she could have leaked out much more amiably.
--Bob
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Mon Mar 26 15:27:08 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 21:27:08 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] New Fairy Tales!
In-Reply-To: <318C9A3B2BE642DF93FE3F136DEAF810@BobHP>
References: <CA+9UsyR8myMsA6Y0pv0_s77QZ2n5Lp-RPDMHA8tAtxY+gO_ODQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<318C9A3B2BE642DF93FE3F136DEAF810@BobHP>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyQaAT=TKvPQtcPy1fXxf5uKfMbiYwePpEm9tbp8FxAqBw@mail.gmail.com>

That could be another fairy tale, and even smarter, :-)


On Mon, Mar 26, 2012 at 8:57 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:

>
>
>  *From:* Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Monday, March 26, 2012 2:46 PM
> *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] New Fairy Tales!
>
>  and a lot of them:
>
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2012/mar/05/five-hundred-fairytales-discovered-germany?INTCMP=SRCH
>
>
> For example, there is the tale of a maiden who escapes a witch by
> transforming herself into a pond. The witch then lies on her stomach and
> drinks all the water, swallowing the young girl, who uses a knife to cut
> her way out of the witch.
>  How impatient of her: she could have leaked out much more amiably.
>
>  --Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Mon Mar 26 15:18:44 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 12:18:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Didion/Draper/Lurie
In-Reply-To: <B9370EA55FB5416CBA1D783A353BCF70@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1332789524.69564.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>







perhaps --
?

He founded an Internet discussion list related to contemporary poetry and organized a poetry workshop group known as The Brickwalk Poets ? a group that has met regularly at his home since 1995. He is president of the Friends and Enemies of Wallace Stevens, a nonprofit organization created to promote the literary arts and preserve the cultural legacy of poet Wallace Stevens.
? 

As poet laureate, Finnegan said, he would like to start a poetry book discussion group that would meet monthly.
?
**************************************************************************************************

Having found employment at the Hartford Accident and Indemnity Co., Wallace Stevens moved to Connecticut in 1916, and lived there until his death in 1955. He is considered one of the greatest American poets
--- On Mon, 3/26/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Didion/Draper/Lurie
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Monday, March 26, 2012, 2:56 PM












?




guess I should say something (why?) ... Finnegan's Wake? ... with my usual (haven't a clue) bravado, I'll say ... but why repeat the offense? ...are you talking about a living mortal? ... James Finnegan? that mortal?


Weird, Stephen?you?re not the only person I?ve not been getting through to these past few days. Mercury must be afflicting my larynx.? Anyway, I forgot about Joyce?s Finnegans; I meant our leader James.? The poet most associated with him lived where, or near where he does.? A Hartford poet.? Something about a line of yours sharply reminded me of his way of writing.? Which I greatly admire.

?

--Bob


?

?
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From jforjames at aol.com  Mon Mar 26 16:26:52 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 16:26:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Coriolanus
Message-ID: <8CED9A5EA327124-1E88-1831A@webmail-m077.sysops.aol.com>

I was quite impressed by Ralph Fiennes' Coriolanus, which I saw on Friday night. 
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1372686/
Vanessa Redgrave gives an amazing performance as Martius' mom.
Rather harrowing in parts, as you'd expect from the play, but masterfully put together (in a modern setting; with modern implements of warfare). Gerard Butler fans should know his part (Afidius)
is important to the plot but not large in the main body of the play/film.



Finnegan
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Mar 26 16:45:51 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Mon, 26 Mar 2012 16:45:51 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
In-Reply-To: <1332789524.69564.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1332789524.69564.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <85B48E23E386481CAE798AFF3197DAA1@BobHP>

Your two Roberto pieces made me think of ?Thirteen Ways of Looking at a Blackbird.?  Almost a zen sort of shift in tone, and a kind of poetic image versus callous pov effect.  

--Bob
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From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Mar 27 11:00:03 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 11:00:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mies van der Rohe
Message-ID: <8CEDA416C6612BD-107C-1D15@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com>


Google home page reminds us that today is Mies van der Rohe's 126th birthday. I happen to have a Mies poem, so to speak...


A Museum For A Small City (unbuilt)




The rough graphite drawings show 
the roof lifting off, hovering, 
suspended above a glass enclosure.
?Universal space,? as Mies


referred to it. What small city
would not want this airy structure
to ornament a park or central square?
Perhaps it was too elegant,


too precious a building for an American
city, its backbone spiky with church spires
and smokestacks. Or maybe 
no small city could afford the art  


that would have to grace this place,
exposed as it was to all light, to all eyes.
Mies van der Rohe was for Chicago,
for Rome. Not for Knoxville or Des Moines, 


So now this museum exists only as a dream,
and maybe all art lives on in that same space,
floating forever in imagination?s ache 
of what it is and what we wanted it to be. 


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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Tue Mar 27 11:45:25 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 17:45:25 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mies van der Rohe
In-Reply-To: <8CEDA416C6612BD-107C-1D15@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CEDA416C6612BD-107C-1D15@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyQ-t8AxWQbS1=FZo8tgR7W8eF7LdQ6yMrCcSuf1BEhSRQ@mail.gmail.com>

I was wondering why there was a building on google,
thanks for the poem, excellent.

Best, Anny

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 5:00 PM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:

> Google home page reminds us that today is Mies van der Rohe's 126th
> birthday. I happen to have a Mies poem, so to speak...
>
>  A Museum For A Small City (unbuilt)
>
>
>  The rough graphite drawings show
> the roof lifting off, hovering,
> suspended above a glass enclosure.
> ?Universal space,? as Mies
>
>  referred to it. What small city
> would not want this airy structure
> to ornament a park or central square?
> Perhaps it was too elegant,
>
>  too precious a building for an American
> city, its backbone spiky with church spires
> and smokestacks. Or maybe
> no small city could afford the art
>
>  that would have to grace this place,
> exposed as it was to all light, to all eyes.
> Mies van der Rohe was for Chicago,
> for Rome. Not for Knoxville or Des Moines,
>
>  So now this museum exists only as a dream,
> and maybe all art lives on in that same space,
> floating forever in imagination?s ache
> of what it is and what we wanted it to be.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From richard.wilsnack at med.und.edu  Tue Mar 27 12:28:43 2012
From: richard.wilsnack at med.und.edu (Wilsnack, Richard)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 09:28:43 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mies van der Rohe
In-Reply-To: <8CEDA416C6612BD-107C-1D15@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CEDA416C6612BD-107C-1D15@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <A9E1982B7D394A4E8CDFC757A6E05F810B46BD16@VA3DIAXVSA41.RED001.local>

Bravo!

Richard W. Wilsnack
richard.wilsnack at med.und.edu

From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of jforjames at aol.com
Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2012 10:00 AM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mies van der Rohe

Google home page reminds us that today is Mies van der Rohe's 126th birthday. I happen to have a Mies poem, so to speak...

A Museum For A Small City (unbuilt)


The rough graphite drawings show
the roof lifting off, hovering,
suspended above a glass enclosure.
?Universal space,? as Mies

referred to it. What small city
would not want this airy structure
to ornament a park or central square?
Perhaps it was too elegant,

too precious a building for an American
city, its backbone spiky with church spires
and smokestacks. Or maybe
no small city could afford the art

that would have to grace this place,
exposed as it was to all light, to all eyes.
Mies van der Rohe was for Chicago,
for Rome. Not for Knoxville or Des Moines,

So now this museum exists only as a dream,
and maybe all art lives on in that same space,
floating forever in imagination?s ache
of what it is and what we wanted it to be.

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From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Mar 27 15:19:13 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 15:19:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] poems about architecture/architects?
In-Reply-To: <8CEDA416C6612BD-107C-1D15@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CEDA416C6612BD-107C-1D15@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8CEDA65A111153E-A88-4C9E@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com>

Anyone want to post other poems related to architecture/architect?...


-----Original Message-----
From: jforjames <jforjames at aol.com>
To: new-poetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tue, Mar 27, 2012 11:17 am
Subject: [New-Poetry] Mies van der Rohe


Google home page reminds us that today is Mies van der Rohe's 126th birthday. I happen to have a Mies poem, so to speak...


A Museum For A Small City (unbuilt)




The rough graphite drawings show 
the roof lifting off, hovering, 
suspended above a glass enclosure.
?Universal space,? as Mies


referred to it. What small city
would not want this airy structure
to ornament a park or central square?
Perhaps it was too elegant,


too precious a building for an American
city, its backbone spiky with church spires
and smokestacks. Or maybe 
no small city could afford the art  


that would have to grace this place,
exposed as it was to all light, to all eyes.
Mies van der Rohe was for Chicago,
for Rome. Not for Knoxville or Des Moines, 


So now this museum exists only as a dream,
and maybe all art lives on in that same space,
floating forever in imagination?s ache 
of what it is and what we wanted it to be. 


 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

 
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From htthinc at gmail.com  Tue Mar 27 15:34:58 2012
From: htthinc at gmail.com (Paul Howell)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 15:34:58 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] poems about architecture/architects?
In-Reply-To: <8CEDA65A111153E-A88-4C9E@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CEDA416C6612BD-107C-1D15@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CEDA65A111153E-A88-4C9E@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CACHqp-4OTy7iBd51kRh-A662_LG2DWJ-ujhpnBbYGjr35Ov8Vg@mail.gmail.com>

Here's one:

*The Architect who fell out the Window*



Before you choose words, ascertain needs

tame color schemes and gather fallen trees.

Check regulations, write specifications

Build a clay model, make adaptations


Then beam an image on the mist.   We?ll give our approbation This will be
our palace, this will be our nation

Oh, we?ll say, and ah, and ooh, and wow!



Hardwoods are the best for resonance

Metallic struts for strength, glass for viewing meadows

and enhancing distant length. It?s finishing that?s half the work,

you must get started soon

for that is how the world was built,

a hundred words by noon



Scribble, shred, erase and burn

but put that frame in place.

Fill it with the vision that will

be our way to grace.

Stretch our reach like marketers.

Make us want more sights

Set our hearts on fire

Maximize delights.



Put boys and girls on swings and slides

With lovers in the grass besides

Let tragedy and comedy and elegies align.



What?s wrong with unreal windows

Is that real falls aren?t benign.






Prairie Journal of Canadian Literature, 2004


On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 3:19 PM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:

> Anyone want to post other poems related to architecture/architect?...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jforjames <jforjames at aol.com>
> To: new-poetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Tue, Mar 27, 2012 11:17 am
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Mies van der Rohe
>
>  Google home page reminds us that today is Mies van der Rohe's 126th
> birthday. I happen to have a Mies poem, so to speak...
>
>  A Museum For A Small City (unbuilt)
>
>
>  The rough graphite drawings show
> the roof lifting off, hovering,
> suspended above a glass enclosure.
> ?Universal space,? as Mies
>
>  referred to it. What small city
> would not want this airy structure
> to ornament a park or central square?
> Perhaps it was too elegant,
>
>  too precious a building for an American
> city, its backbone spiky with church spires
> and smokestacks. Or maybe
> no small city could afford the art
>
>  that would have to grace this place,
> exposed as it was to all light, to all eyes.
> Mies van der Rohe was for Chicago,
> for Rome. Not for Knoxville or Des Moines,
>
>  So now this museum exists only as a dream,
> and maybe all art lives on in that same space,
> floating forever in imagination?s ache
> of what it is and what we wanted it to be.
>
>   _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From gejs1 at rochester.rr.com  Tue Mar 27 16:31:01 2012
From: gejs1 at rochester.rr.com (gejs1 at rochester.rr.com)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 16:31:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] poems about architecture/architects?
In-Reply-To: <8CEDA65A111153E-A88-4C9E@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <20120327203101.R14LZ.9525.root@hrndva-web27-z01>

WORTHLESS

The worth of what we build 

comes up short at best. Images

of structures which could be

seen in many cities once put

up in permanent stone or girdled

in steel get pulled down, broken

where they stood, or are pulled

apart... their remains rendered

by those who rehab and by antiquarians.

G. E. Schwartz



From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Tue Mar 27 22:42:46 2012
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Tue, 27 Mar 2012 19:42:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Friends_Read_Friends=E2=80=99_Poems_=231_-?=
 =?utf-8?q?_A_New_Series?=
Message-ID: <1332902566.21275.YahooMailNeo@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

"And it?s this lackadaisical generative ease, and her poems? gift of whipping up a mirage of worlds/relationships then letting them fall where they may, that make her a poet fools deem 'difficult' ..."



?Full Monty Here --?http://htmlgiant.com/random/friends-read-friends-poems-1-ana-bozicevic-on-amy-kings-men-by-the-lips-of-women/
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 12:45:38 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 09:45:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] It is
Message-ID: <1332953138.52641.YahooMailClassic@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

whatever it is,
& according to the late Kurt 
Vonnegut

literature is

idiosyncratic arrangements in horizontal lines of only twenty-six phonetic symbols,
ten Arabic numbers, and about eight punctuation marks. 

fFrom "Like Shaking Hands With God"

a conversation about writing

Vonnegut @ Lee Stringer
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 12:54:50 2012
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 09:54:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Millay Colony Weekend Workshop in NYC with Rachel
	Levitsky and Christian Hawkey + April 3rd - Juliana Spahr &
	tc tolbert
Message-ID: <1332953690.56858.YahooMailNeo@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>



??
FOR RELEASE
>Press Contact: Cara Benson
>cara at millaycolony.org?/?518-320-6211
>Millay Colony Weekend Workshop in NYC with Rachel Levitsky and Christian Hawkey:
>April 14 & 15; Performance/Documentation on April 28
>
>Christian Hawkey?and?Rachel Levitsky, co-founders of the Office of Recuperative Strategies (OoRS) will share their research into strategies that intervene and repurpose the brutality of techno-capitalism's obsession with speed, newness, able-bodiedness, originality, and innovation. Our focus as a class will be to encourage a memory-based politics that draws on poetic thought to invent new fields of vitality, desire, and dwelling. A wide range of recuperative strategies and media will be supported in this workshop (bring all ideas and projects in process!), including such practice-based interventions as archive investigation, field-research and recording, digital sampling, and the realignment of author/reader, subject/object positions. Writers of all genres are welcome. Participants will be sent an advance list of links to existing recuperative strategies and supportive texts. The workshop will document research and creative production and will
 conclude with a performance!
>
>Weekend Workshop Schedule: We will begin each four-hour class at 11:00 with coffee, tea and a lot of ideas about a lively, focused, smart writing and art practice. Total workshop time is eight hours or sixteen hours for a double class. Lunch is served at each class and the day ends at 3:00 PM.
>
>Weekend Fees:?$350 for a weekend class, $400 for a two-weekend class.
>
>
>To Apply: Send a letter of introduction including a brief bio with a $50 deposit. Also include a work sample (10 pages of writing or links to online work). Applicants will be accepted on a first-come first-serve basis.
>
>Send to:?The Millay Colony for the Arts, 454 East Hill Road, Austerlitz, NY. Attention: Workshops. Make checks payable to The Millay Colony for the Arts. For more information contact Caroline Crumpacker at?518-392-4144?or?director at millaycolony.org.?http://www.millaycolony.org/workshops
>
>Workshop Location:?Trisha Brown Dance Studios, 465 Greenwich St., New York, NY 10013.?
>

?



Belladonna* Reading Series
Juliana?Spahr, tc tolbert
Poem. Body. Planet. Need.
April 3, 7pm

How can we, as poets, take care of ourselves, our creative work, and the larger planetary body on which we depend??Juliana?Spahr?and tc tolbert read from new work and discuss. This event is part of the 2011-2012 Belladonna* Material Lives season which calls attention to the material life of the artist, as person, who, in addition to being creator/conspirator to a body of work, possesses a physical body, and real financial, medical and social needs. Bring questions and desire.

Juliana?Spahr?is the author of Well Then There Now (Black Sparrow Press, 2011); This Connection of Everyone with Lungs (University of California Press, 2005); Fuck You?Aloha?I Love You (Wesleyan University Press, 2001); and Response (Sun & Moon Press, 1996), winner of the National Poetry Series Award.

TC Tolbert is a genderqueer, feminist poet and teacher committed to social justice. S/he is a member of Movement Salon, a compositional improvisation group in Tucson, and is the Interview Curator forTrickhouse, an online multi-genre publication. TC?s chapbook, territories of folding, was recently published by Kore Press. His manuscript, Gephyromania, is forthcoming from Ahsahta Press. His poems can be found in Volt, The Pinch, Drunken Boat, Shampoo, A Trunk of Delirium, jubilat, andEOAGH. S/he is the creator of Made for Flight, a youth empowerment project that utilizes creative writing and kite building to commemorate murdered transgender people and dismantle homophobia and transphobia.


Dixon Place Lounge
161a Chrystie St. (off Delancey)
NYC





"Amy King?s poems seem to encompass all that we think of as the 'natural' world ..."
???????????????? --John Ashbery ( http://www.litmuspress.org/iwanttomakeyousafe.html )


From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com  Wed Mar 28 13:15:57 2012
From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 10:15:57 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] poems about architecture/architects?
In-Reply-To: <8CEDA65A111153E-A88-4C9E@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CEDA416C6612BD-107C-1D15@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CEDA65A111153E-A88-4C9E@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CAFq5sq-KcVD8pR5=EtEcwLjfOyTZ5zZG3hykwEwCfGnd5dm8Jg@mail.gmail.com>

I've got a piece of one in Vauhall, one online called Decoration
(Alterran Poetry Assemblage), more...

Chad Sweeney has a book called An Architecture...

On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 12:19 PM,  <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:
> Anyone want to post other poems related to architecture/architect?...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jforjames <jforjames at aol.com>
> To: new-poetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Tue, Mar 27, 2012 11:17 am
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Mies van der Rohe
>
> Google home page reminds us that today is Mies van der Rohe's 126th
> birthday. I happen to have a Mies poem, so to speak...
>


From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 13:25:32 2012
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 10:25:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Friday, March 30th - Stain of Poetry
Message-ID: <1332955532.4209.YahooMailNeo@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>


STAIN OF POETRY presents

Lindsey Boldt /Joanna Penn Cooper / Tyler Flynn Dorholt / Dorothea Lasky / Steve Orth / J Hope Stein

7 PM on March 30th @ Goodbye Blue Monday ? Bushwick, Brooklyn

with

Lindsey Boldt is a poet and itinerant culture worker in training. Her first book, Overboard, is forthcoming from Publication Studios.

Joanna Penn Cooper?s creative and critical work has appeared or is forthcoming in a number of journals, including Poetry International, Opium, Supermachine, Pleiades, elimae, and Boog City. Her second chapbook of poetry and short prose pieces, Mesmer, was published in April 2010 by Dancing Girl Press. Joanna?s full-length poetry collection, How We Mostly Were, was a finalist for the Kinereth Gensler Award from Alice James Books in December 2010. Currently working on a book of prose poems and essays tentatively titled Vita, Joanna lives in Brooklyn and has a blog at?joannapenncooper.blogspot.com.

Tyler Flynn Dorholt?s most recent chapbooks are What I Cannot Recall (Greying Ghost) and from Monster: a Glottochronology, with Thomas Cook (alice blue). He publishes and curates the film/writing series On the Escape (www.ontheescape.com) and is co-editor of the print journal Tim (n?e, Tammy ?www.thetjournal.com).He lives in Manhattan, where he works for a communications firm and is the Managing Consultant of The A.N.D Project (www.theandproject.com).

Dorothea Lasky is the author of AWE, Black Life, and the forthcoming Thunderbird, all from Wave Books. She can be found online atwww.birdinsnow.com.

Steve Orth lives in Oakland, CA where he writes poems and poem-like things. He publishes the magazine ?Where Eagles Dare?. With Lindsey Boldt, he runs Summer BF Press. He?s puts out his own chapbooks & the next will most likely be ?Slur The Point?.

J. Hope Stein is the author of the chapbooks [Talking Doll]: (Dancing Girl Press), Corner Office (H_NGM_N BKS) and [Mary]: (Hyacinth Girl Press). Her full length manuscript The Inventor?s Last Breath was a finalist in the Alice James Books 2011 Kinereth Awards and her chapbook Light?s Golden Jubilee was a finalist in the 2011 Ahsahta Chapbook Contest. J. Hope Stein is also the author of poetry/humor site?eecattings.com, editor of?poetrycrush.com. Her short film, The Inventor?s Last Breath, based on her full-length manuscript about Thomas Edison, was screened at the 2011 Cinepoetry Festival at the Henry Miller Library in Big Sur and will be screened in several venues in 2012.

at

Goodbye Blue Monday

1087 Broadway
(corner of Dodworth St)
Brooklyn, NY 11221-3013 (718) 453-6343

J M Z trains to Myrtle Ave
or J train to Kosciusko St



Hosted by Erika Moya + Christie Ann Reynolds
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From halvard at gmail.com  Wed Mar 28 13:44:44 2012
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 11:44:44 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] poems about architecture/architects?
In-Reply-To: <8CEDA65A111153E-A88-4C9E@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CEDA416C6612BD-107C-1D15@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CEDA65A111153E-A88-4C9E@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CANrCfqF2BfaPQ1BvQyON-RBaG_xuSUfCCs23AA1z-SF5+Hkxbg@mail.gmail.com>

Here's one from Tomas Transtr?mer:

Romanesque Arches

Inside the huge Romanesque church the tourists jostled in the half darkness.
Vault gaped behind vault, no complete view.
A few candle flames flickered.
An angel with no face embraced me
and whispered through my whole body:
"Don't be ashamed of being human, be proud!
Inside you vault opens behind vault endlessly.
You will never be complete, that's how it's meant to be."
Blind with tears
I was pushed out on the sun-seething piazza
together with Mr. and Mrs. Jones, Mr. Tanaka, and Signora Sabatini,
and inside each of them vault opened behind vault endlessly.

tr. Robin Fulton


Serving the tri-state area.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com

On Barcelona <http://onbarcelona.blogspot.com/> (submissions sought; email
to my address above)
Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
Remains To Be Seen <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>*, Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. II) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>,** Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. III) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Sonnets
from the Basque & Other Poems <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>
*, *Mainly Black <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Obras
P?blicas <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **The Perfection
of Mozart's Third Eye and Other
Sonnets<http://www.scribd.com/doc/27039868/Halvard-Johnson-THE-PERFECTION-OF-MOZART-S-THIRD-EYE-Other-Sonnets>
; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of
Clones<http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Entrance-Clones-Halvard-Johnson/dp/0965404390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283182804&sr=8-1>
; **Tango Bouquet <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **Theory
of Harmony<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall04/theory1.pdf>
; **Rapsodie espagnole<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/rapsodi.pdf>
; **Guide to the Tokyo
Subway<http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Tokyo-Subway-Other-Poems/dp/0971487316/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283183153&sr=1-3>
; **The Sonnet Project<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/hsonnet.pdf>
; **G(e)nome <http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall03/genome.pdf>; **Winter
Journey <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.winter.html>;
**Eclipse<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.eclipse.html>
; **The Dance of the Red Swan <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.dance.html>
; **Transparencies & Projections<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.transp.html>
*




On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 1:19 PM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:

> Anyone want to post other poems related to architecture/architect?...
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jforjames <jforjames at aol.com>
> To: new-poetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Tue, Mar 27, 2012 11:17 am
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Mies van der Rohe
>
>  Google home page reminds us that today is Mies van der Rohe's 126th
> birthday. I happen to have a Mies poem, so to speak...
>
>  A Museum For A Small City (unbuilt)
>
>
>  The rough graphite drawings show
> the roof lifting off, hovering,
> suspended above a glass enclosure.
> ?Universal space,? as Mies
>
>  referred to it. What small city
> would not want this airy structure
> to ornament a park or central square?
> Perhaps it was too elegant,
>
>  too precious a building for an American
> city, its backbone spiky with church spires
> and smokestacks. Or maybe
> no small city could afford the art
>
>  that would have to grace this place,
> exposed as it was to all light, to all eyes.
> Mies van der Rohe was for Chicago,
> for Rome. Not for Knoxville or Des Moines,
>
>  So now this museum exists only as a dream,
> and maybe all art lives on in that same space,
> floating forever in imagination?s ache
> of what it is and what we wanted it to be.
>
>   _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From htthinc at gmail.com  Wed Mar 28 14:17:12 2012
From: htthinc at gmail.com (Paul Howell)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 14:17:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] poems about architecture/architects?
In-Reply-To: <CANrCfqF2BfaPQ1BvQyON-RBaG_xuSUfCCs23AA1z-SF5+Hkxbg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CEDA416C6612BD-107C-1D15@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CEDA65A111153E-A88-4C9E@webmail-d041.sysops.aol.com>
	<CANrCfqF2BfaPQ1BvQyON-RBaG_xuSUfCCs23AA1z-SF5+Hkxbg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACHqp-6snVgksnxDMsd+fdUP=BxOfODvg9mofjGu7J2M=Bj7gQ@mail.gmail.com>

Here's another:

*The Mound Builder*



communal handiwork, here in the earth

in this age of mud tools

in this age of mud

in the flood plane: revere it



originality of concept sucks you in

design - you can see it will work -

birthing place to burial ground

bathing pool to theater

cooking fire for fellowship

dining room with long green views

breathing space

defenses, physical and intangible

a square for meditation, slaughtering urns

a terminal integration of eternal earth and us

with real smoke ladders to heaven



after the first season of construction we pledged

not to reveal what happened here or why;

this is modesty



the design took care of that



there were to be no edges

between the dwelling place we built

and the dwelling place we came from

among functions or ages

and our destiny, too, without edges:

again integration, for we are only ever in one place,

and execution, for we are nothing if not courageous



and, oh, the accounting and discussions in the agoras

which the river flows past south of here -

they are now all flooded and undone



while for us undoing is acceptance

our choice is boldness

we stay close to the mud which covers us

and no one dreams of progress



the objective of life is to answer the season















we share our mound with the wind

you can see its stretch marks still

they have reshaped even this statement

as civilizations scale our defenses



what we mastered was process -

presence is process and we are

permanence inside perpetuity

exits which are nothing but entrances

corridors stacked upon corridors





Cahokia





On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 1:44 PM, Halvard Johnson <halvard at gmail.com> wrote:

> Here's one from Tomas Transtr?mer:
>
> Romanesque Arches
>
> Inside the huge Romanesque church the tourists jostled in the half
> darkness.
> Vault gaped behind vault, no complete view.
> A few candle flames flickered.
> An angel with no face embraced me
> and whispered through my whole body:
> "Don't be ashamed of being human, be proud!
> Inside you vault opens behind vault endlessly.
> You will never be complete, that's how it's meant to be."
> Blind with tears
> I was pushed out on the sun-seething piazza
> together with Mr. and Mrs. Jones, Mr. Tanaka, and Signora Sabatini,
> and inside each of them vault opened behind vault endlessly.
>
> tr. Robin Fulton
>
>
> Serving the tri-state area.
>
> Hal
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
>
> halvard at gmail.com
>
> On Barcelona <http://onbarcelona.blogspot.com/> (submissions sought;
> email to my address above)
> Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175
> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>  <http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
> https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/
>  <http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
> Remains To Be Seen <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>*, Remains
> To Be Seen (Vol. II) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>,** Remains
> To Be Seen (Vol. III) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Sonnets
> from the Basque & Other Poems<https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>
> *, *Mainly Black <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Obras
> P?blicas <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **The Perfection
> of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets<http://www.scribd.com/doc/27039868/Halvard-Johnson-THE-PERFECTION-OF-MOZART-S-THIRD-EYE-Other-Sonnets>
> ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones<http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Entrance-Clones-Halvard-Johnson/dp/0965404390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283182804&sr=8-1>
> ; **Tango Bouquet <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **Theory
> of Harmony<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall04/theory1.pdf>
> ; **Rapsodie espagnole<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/rapsodi.pdf>
> ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway<http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Tokyo-Subway-Other-Poems/dp/0971487316/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283183153&sr=1-3>
> ; **The Sonnet Project<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/hsonnet.pdf>
> ; **G(e)nome <http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall03/genome.pdf>; **Winter
> Journey <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.winter.html>; **Eclipse<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.eclipse.html>
> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.dance.html>
> ; **Transparencies & Projections<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.transp.html>
> *
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 1:19 PM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Anyone want to post other poems related to architecture/architect?...
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: jforjames <jforjames at aol.com>
>> To: new-poetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> Sent: Tue, Mar 27, 2012 11:17 am
>> Subject: [New-Poetry] Mies van der Rohe
>>
>>  Google home page reminds us that today is Mies van der Rohe's 126th
>> birthday. I happen to have a Mies poem, so to speak...
>>
>>  A Museum For A Small City (unbuilt)
>>
>>
>>  The rough graphite drawings show
>> the roof lifting off, hovering,
>> suspended above a glass enclosure.
>> ?Universal space,? as Mies
>>
>>  referred to it. What small city
>> would not want this airy structure
>> to ornament a park or central square?
>> Perhaps it was too elegant,
>>
>>  too precious a building for an American
>> city, its backbone spiky with church spires
>> and smokestacks. Or maybe
>> no small city could afford the art
>>
>>  that would have to grace this place,
>> exposed as it was to all light, to all eyes.
>> Mies van der Rohe was for Chicago,
>> for Rome. Not for Knoxville or Des Moines,
>>
>>  So now this museum exists only as a dream,
>> and maybe all art lives on in that same space,
>> floating forever in imagination?s ache
>> of what it is and what we wanted it to be.
>>
>>   _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Wed Mar 28 17:45:18 2012
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 16:45:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] R.I.P. Adrienne Rich
Message-ID: <CB98F09E.7DB3%GrahamD@ripon.edu>

Sad news:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/jacketcopy/2012/03/adrienne-rich.html


Tattered Kaddish


Taurean reaper of the wild apple field
messenger from earthmire gleaning
transcripts of fog 
in the nineteenth year and the eleventh month
speak your tattered Kaddish for all suicides:

Praise to life though it crumbled in like a tunnel
on ones we knew and loved

Praise to life though its windows blew shut
on the breathing-room of ones we knew and loved

Praise to life though ones we knew and loved
loved it badly, too well, and not enough

Praise to life though it tightened like a knot
on the hearts of ones we thought we knew loved us

Praise to life giving room and reason
to ones we knew and loved who felt unpraisable

Praise to them, how they loved it, when they could.

1989

--Adrienne Rich.  An Atlas of The Difficult World.  1991.


-- 

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz

Poetry Library:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================


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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 19:19:13 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 16:19:13 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
In-Reply-To: <85B48E23E386481CAE798AFF3197DAA1@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1332976753.58949.YahooMailClassic@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Thanks for that, Bob. But I'm still embarrassed for not getting the Wally reference. I'm much better at picking the college basketball finalist. 

--- On Mon, 3/26/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Stevens
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Monday, March 26, 2012, 4:45 PM





Your two Roberto pieces made me think of ?Thirteen Ways of Looking at a 
Blackbird.?? Almost a zen sort of shift in tone, and a kind of poetic image 
versus callous pov effect.? 
?
--Bob

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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 19:22:17 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 16:22:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
In-Reply-To: <1332976753.58949.YahooMailClassic@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1332976937.70514.YahooMailClassic@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

& the winner ... Kentucky ... not exactly an underdog. 

--- On Wed, 3/28/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Stevens
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Wednesday, March 28, 2012, 7:19 PM

Thanks for that, Bob. But I'm still embarrassed for not getting the Wally reference. I'm much better at picking the college basketball finalist. 

--- On Mon, 3/26/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Stevens
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Monday, March 26, 2012, 4:45 PM





Your two Roberto pieces made me think of ?Thirteen Ways of Looking at a 
Blackbird.?? Almost a zen sort of shift in tone, and a kind of poetic image 
versus callous pov effect.? 
?
--Bob

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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Wed Mar 28 19:31:03 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 28 Mar 2012 16:31:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] poems about architecture/architects?
Message-ID: <1332977463.88889.YahooMailClassic@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

...not a poem, but some additional info on  Mies van der Rohe.

Martin Luther King library, D.C.:

This library was Mies' last building and his only one ever constructed 
in Washington, D.C. Additionally, it is the only public library ever 
designed by Mies. Completed in 1972, the building cost $18 million. The 
building has been plagued by neglect and problems with its HVAC
 system. DCPL has recently restored lighting on the entire first floor. 
DCPL has also recently completed elevator and restroom renovations 
throughout the building.



 Mies van der Rohe
--- On Wed, 3/28/12, Paul Howell <htthinc at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Paul Howell <htthinc at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poems about architecture/architects?
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date:
 Wednesday, March 28, 2012, 2:17 PM

Here's another:



The Mound Builder


?

communal
handiwork, here in the earth

in
this age of mud tools

in
this age of mud

in
the flood plane: revere it

?

originality
of concept sucks you in

design
- you can see it will work -

birthing
place to burial ground

bathing
pool to theater

cooking
fire for fellowship

dining
room with long green views

breathing
space

defenses,
physical and intangible

a
square for meditation, slaughtering urns

a
terminal integration of eternal earth and us

with
real smoke ladders to heaven

?

after
the first season of construction we pledged

not
to reveal what happened here or why;

this
is modesty

?

the
design took care of that

?

there
were to be no edges

between
the dwelling place we built

and
the dwelling place we came from

among
functions or ages

and
our destiny, too, without edges:

again
integration, for we are only ever in one place,

and
execution, for we are nothing if not courageous

?

and,
oh, the accounting and discussions in the agoras

which
the river flows past south of here -

they
are now all flooded and undone

?

while
for us undoing is acceptance

our
choice is boldness

we
stay close to the mud which covers us

and
no one dreams of progress

?

the
objective of life is to answer the season

?

?

?

?

?

?

?

we
share our mound with the wind

you
can see its stretch marks still

they
have reshaped even this statement

as
civilizations scale our defenses

?

what
we mastered was process -

presence
is process and we are

permanence
inside perpetuity

exits
which are nothing but entrances

corridors
stacked upon corridors

?



?

Cahokia








On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 1:44 PM, Halvard Johnson <halvard at gmail.com> wrote:

Here's one from Tomas Transtr?mer:
Romanesque Arches


Inside the huge Romanesque church the tourists jostled in the half darkness.

Vault gaped behind vault, no complete view.A few candle flames flickered.An angel with no face embraced me

and whispered through my whole body:"Don't be ashamed of being human, be proud!

Inside you vault opens behind vault endlessly.You will never be complete, that's how it's meant to be."

Blind with tearsI was pushed out on the sun-seething piazzatogether with Mr. and Mrs. Jones, Mr. Tanaka, and Signora Sabatini,

and inside each of them vault opened behind vault endlessly.
tr. Robin Fulton


?? ?


Serving the tri-state area.
Hal
Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com


On Barcelona (submissions sought; email to my address above)

Truck:?https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home


http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org

https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/



Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan;?Transparencies & Projections






On Tue, Mar 27, 2012 at 1:19 PM,  <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:


Anyone want to post other poems related to architecture/architect?...




-----Original Message-----

From: jforjames <jforjames at aol.com>

To: new-poetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>

Sent: Tue, Mar 27, 2012 11:17 am

Subject: [New-Poetry] Mies van der Rohe














Google home page reminds us that today is Mies van der Rohe's 126th birthday. I happen to have a Mies poem, so to speak...










A Museum For A Small City (unbuilt)

















The rough graphite drawings show?



the roof lifting off, hovering,?



suspended above a glass enclosure.



?Universal space,? as Mies










referred to it. What small city



would not want this airy structure



to ornament a park or central square?



Perhaps it was too elegant,










too precious a building for an American



city, its backbone spiky with church spires



and smokestacks. Or maybe?



no small city could afford the art ?










that would have to grace this place,



exposed as it was to all light, to all eyes.



Mies van der Rohe was for Chicago,



for Rome. Not for Knoxville or Des Moines,?










So now this museum exists only as a dream,



and maybe all art lives on in that same space,



floating forever in imagination?s ache?



of what it is and what we wanted it to be.?










 




_______________________________________________
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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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_______________________________________________

New-Poetry mailing list

New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu

http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Mar 29 06:57:05 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 06:57:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Stevens
In-Reply-To: <1332976753.58949.YahooMailClassic@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1332976753.58949.YahooMailClassic@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <35CE75305E4D46F79C8E4C5808C0E0FB@BobHP>

      Thanks for that, Bob. But I'm still embarrassed for not getting the Wally reference. I'm much better at picking the college basketball finalist.  


Can?t expect to think of much else when your mind is on guillotines, Stephen.  But tell me, do you think there?s much of Wally in your series?  Have you reread ?13 Ways of Looking at Blackbirds? for inspiration?  I think I tried something like it once but didn?t get anywhere.

--Bob
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 29 11:41:07 2012
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 08:41:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Today --  The Festival Begins!
In-Reply-To: <9460917390402477.WA.abozicevicgc.cuny.edu@gc.listserv.cuny.edu>
References: <9460917390402477.WA.abozicevicgc.cuny.edu@gc.listserv.cuny.edu>
Message-ID: <1333035667.93773.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

We are all set! Join us today for Lunch Poems readings at 12 noon with?Brandon Downing,?Guy Pettit,?Montana Ray,?Bryan Beck,?Paige Taggart,?Sasha Fletcher,?Alina Gregorian,?Cori Copp,?Nat Otting,?Elizabeth Clark Wessel,?Nate Pritts,?Krystal Languell?and?Adam Robinson!

Then at 3pm attend a workshop with?Ryan Murphy?and?Iris Cushing?and?Elizabeth Clark Wessel?? and at 5pm, stay for the one with?Adam Robinson,?Martin Rock?and?Lucy Ives.


And then, friends, remain for the panel discussion on translation & publishing at 7pm featuring?Ammiel Alcalay,?Esther Allen,?Susan Bernofsky,?Anna Moschovakis,?Eliot Weinberger, the Croatian editors of?Poezija?magazine?and moderator?Ana Bo?i?evi?.


Quel d?lire de lire! Come on over. Oh, and don?t forget to pick up an exclusive copy of?Lorine Niedecker's??Homemade Poems? at the?Lost & Found?table ? a preview of series III.


www.chapbookfestival.org


The Graduate Center, CUNY
365 Fifth Ave at 34th St, NYC


~


Coming up next week, April 5: finale of "Tendencies" with D'Lo, Sarah Schulman and TC Tolbert. Hosted by Tim Trace Peterson.?


~



From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Thu Mar 29 11:39:00 2012
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 08:39:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets --  Adrienne Rich
In-Reply-To: <1333035060.45271.YahooMailNeo@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <F35D65F3-645B-4913-9F1A-A103C9CAB332@gmail.com>
	<CADY1rCane8UrkkUeW7tiwwvO4L23oi6+WeAYqmewHTENbKp+Og@mail.gmail.com>
	<B21ACD57-D9F2-4659-9480-21017F8B001D@comcast.net>
	<4F73BD85.30402@PitPinegar.com>
	<CAA11jR4R8C_Z+X=j5pEmhhiCdtc__b9RNWhkmc9Ft=HH6Evfdg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1333035060.45271.YahooMailNeo@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1333035540.37410.YahooMailNeo@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Over on the Women's Poetry listserv, I've found that it's heartening to hear accounts of first encounters with Rich through her work. ?My own came as an undergrad when my then-teacher, Elaine Hedges, took us diving into the wreck ... Hedges, who recovered and wrote the afterword to "The Yellow Wallpaper," also brought Rich to read in Baltimore, a place she was fond of, in a church near the sadly now-defunct 31st Street Feminist Bookstore, which also sponsored her powerful reading. ?I was too shy to do more than hover nearby at the end, but certainly that reading compounded what I sensed of her power and dedication to poetry, politics, and people. ?



So much of what is gone now also points forward to what is going, what is under fire via "austerity" cuts via economic downturns via a decline in income via the anti-intellectual strains ripping through headlines via the lazy need for convenience, etc. ?Bookstores are ridding themselves of poetry aisles that aren't so lucrative, we're buying more and more online instead of from places like Unnameable Books, and we hear very little about just what poets like Rich contributed to a social and political consciousness. ? Poets seem to be no threat at all anymore; their departures are barely noted. ?

I hope she meant something to a few on this list!

Best,

Amy

p.s. ?Coincidentally, I spoke about her here recently:?
No Place for the Little Lyric --?Should Adrienne Rich be the poet laureate of the Occupy movement?

-?http://www.poetryfoundation.org/features/audioitem/3188
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From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu  Thu Mar 29 11:55:57 2012
From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 10:55:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets --  Adrienne Rich
In-Reply-To: <1333035540.37410.YahooMailNeo@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <F35D65F3-645B-4913-9F1A-A103C9CAB332@gmail.com>	<CADY1rCane8UrkkUeW7tiwwvO4L23oi6+WeAYqmewHTENbKp+Og@mail.gmail.com>	<B21ACD57-D9F2-4659-9480-21017F8B001D@comcast.net>	<4F73BD85.30402@PitPinegar.com>	<CAA11jR4R8C_Z+X=j5pEmhhiCdtc__b9RNWhkmc9Ft=HH6Evfdg@mail.gmail.com>	<1333035060.45271.YahooMailNeo@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<1333035540.37410.YahooMailNeo@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4F74860D.7030400@louisiana.edu>

I first encountered Rich (whom I oddly never had a chance to hear read) 
through her early formal verse, which I thought was smart and 
elegant--maybe overly so; and then, later, through _Diving into the 
Wreck_ and her pamphlet (later reprinted) "Women and Honor: Some Notes 
on Lying." The first of those grabbed me like a kind of emotional 
primer, and the latter shook me out of my shoes, and out of much else 
besides. It's very saddening to hear that she's gone.

Jerry



On 3/29/2012 10:39 AM, amy king wrote:
> Over on the Women's Poetry listserv, I've found that it's heartening 
> to hear accounts of first encounters with Rich through her work.  My 
> own came as an undergrad when my then-teacher, Elaine Hedges, took us 
> diving into the wreck ... Hedges, who recovered and wrote the 
> afterword to "The Yellow Wallpaper," also brought Rich to read in 
> Baltimore, a place she was fond of, in a church near the sadly 
> now-defunct 31st Street Feminist Bookstore, which also sponsored her 
> powerful reading.  I was too shy to do more than hover nearby at the 
> end, but certainly that reading compounded what I sensed of her power 
> and dedication to poetry, politics, and people.
>
> So much of what is gone now also points forward to what is going, what 
> is under fire via "austerity" cuts via economic downturns via a 
> decline in income via the anti-intellectual strains ripping through 
> headlines via the lazy need for convenience, etc.  Bookstores are 
> ridding themselves of poetry aisles that aren't so lucrative, we're 
> buying more and more online instead of from places like Unnameable 
> Books, and we hear very little about just what poets like Rich 
> contributed to a social and political consciousness.   Poets seem to 
> be no threat at all anymore; their departures are barely noted.
>
> I hope she meant something to a few on this list!
>
> Best,
>
> Amy
>
> p.s.  Coincidentally, I spoke about her here recently:
> No Place for the Little Lyric -- Should Adrienne Rich be the poet 
> laureate of the Occupy movement?
>
> - http://www.poetryfoundation.org/features/audioitem/3188
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-- 
________________________________________________________

Jerry McGuire
English Department    Box 44691
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70504-4691
337-482-5478
Creative Writing Website:
http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html
______________________________________________________


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From seamascain at gmail.com  Thu Mar 29 13:24:27 2012
From: seamascain at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9amas_Cain?=)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 12:24:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Leap second festival 2012 : Call for entries
In-Reply-To: <CACQeQQwZAMbxtq9oqD7PXqRvT+B8v3JZsMg+J+2SLaj=cxeZ5g@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACQeQQwZAMbxtq9oqD7PXqRvT+B8v3JZsMg+J+2SLaj=cxeZ5g@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACQeQQwkgQVeUJO40r4BKpXO5n_O9vB1Q060De4Bek8XKt5SfA@mail.gmail.com>

_____________________________________


Leap second festival 2012

Call for entries : Works lasting one second or less. The festival is also
interested in texts and essays.

The festival takes place on the leap second which occurs 30th June
2012 23:59:60 UTC.

Submission at festival website
http://noemata.net/leapsec/

The leap second festival is an open, free, distributed, international,
non-profit festival for art, technology and precarity coordinated on
the Internet. This is the first leap second festival. The festival marks
the leap second as deviation and glitch, a bug in the machinery of time,
and also a reality-check and celebration (glitz) of natural cycles and
physical reality, taking place at the moment when the ideal time we have
on our clocks is synchronized with the real time based on the rotation
of the earth.

The festival is open and free for anyone who wish to participate and
submit work. There are no prizes or fees involved. The festival is
documented afterwards.

The festival is open to all types of artistic expressions. Even though
the festival is coordinated and organized via the net the works
themselves don't have to be based, or available, on the net. The
festival is distributed in the sense that the works take place at a
certain time and not necessarily at a certain place. The website of the
festival will coordinate the works by organizing and listing, hosting,
exhibiting, running, and documenting each according to its needs.

The festival believes one second doesn't have to be an impossible
limitation, but maybe a creative limitation, whether or not the works
are realized as things, events or processes adapted to immediate human
perception, or as programs or code that are executed or exhibited. An
ordinary computer does a couple of billion things in the course of one
second. The leap second itself is defined as 9,192,631,770 cycles of a
cesium-133-atom. In the same way that the festival is partly conceptual
despite the physical base in earth rotation and time, the participating
works might revolve around ideas about time, virtuality, and
physicality, in addition to notions about science, machines, technology
and how they relate to natural and physical cycles. That said, there
might be other aspects involved, each own to his own, for example...

- The "formless"... The rejection of form and content and their
traditional game, in favour of horizontality, pulse, entropy, gestalt,
fleeting, and joke. The form is orderly enough - one second - but the
order is almost in the order of joke, and in the horizontality, pulse
and entropy of time - fleeting, virtual - as if to ask, did it really
happen, or what is it for something to happen, or to be?

- "one-off"... one-shot, a happening that occurs only once and is not
repeated --happening, natural event, occurrence, occurrent - an event
that happens, though with intended irregular repetition, an unstable
jiggle of the ball, keeping one eye on the ball, the blink of an eye.

- Precarity/Selfprecarization (turning on itself)...
?So here we are in the present: at a time when the old ideas and
ideologies of the autonomy and freedom of the individual (especially
the individual as genius artist) plus specific aspects of post-1968
politics
have turned into hegemonic neoliberal modes of subjectivation.
Selfprecarization means saying yes to exploiting every aspect of
creativity and of life?
The need to pursue other, less creative, precarious jobs to finance
one?s own
cultural production is something one puts up with. This financing of
one?s own creative output, enforced and yet opted for at the same time,
constantly supports and reproduces the very conditions in which one
suffers and which one at the same time wants to be part of. It is
perhaps because of this that creative workers, these voluntarily
precarized virtuosos, are subjects so easily exploited; they seem able
to
tolerate their living and working conditions with infinite patience
because of the belief in their own freedoms and autonomies, and
because of the fantasies of self-realization. In a neoliberal context,
they
are so exploitable that, now, it is no longer just the state that
presents
them as role models for new modes of living and working??
>From ?Critique of creativity? http://mayflybooks.org/?page_id=74

The leap second. Technology has made the leap second possible/necessary.
The leap second is no natural event as are mid-summer, equinox, etc.,
even if all of them is about an adjustment of a natural cycle. The leap
second doesn't have a cultural history before technology made it
possible to measure the physical rotation of the earth accurately enough
to intervene the ideal atomic time (the second defined by the
cesium-atom). The earth rotation appears to be more variable, and the
length of a day (a physical sun-day, a rotation of the earth around
itself) is slowly increasing over time. In that way the leap second is
introduced for the purpose of synchronizing the ideal time we have on
our clocks with the natural time in the universe.
The leap second festival, in this sense, can be seen as a new way of
celebrating natural cycles, aided by technology, but contrary to the
traditional celebration of eg. winter solstice or equinox, the leap
second is not regular, but more a measure of instability, almost
virtual, and having more character of being a bug in the machinery of
time, a technological glitch one is trying to patch, at the same time
that it is a reality-check and adjustment towards nature and physical
reality. It is also this bug that is being celebrated, of the
technological deviation from the natural cycle, and nature's deviation
from technology, and their realignment in the leap second.

The festival plans at taking place at each leap second in the years to
come. The leap second are irregular and are announced by The
International Earth Rotation and Reference Systems Service (IERS) half a
year in advance.

If the international society decides to abolish the leap second in the
future because of problems updating and synchronizing all the world's
computers to real time, the festival plan to continue like other pagan
festivals around seasonal cycles. The next international debate about
the future of the leap second will take place in 2015.

Ordinarily the leap second is added to the universal time, but the
possibility exists that it's subtracted. In that case the festival will
receive works for deletion, and the submitted works disappear when the
festival takes place at the second that is being taken away.

_____________________________________


From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Thu Mar 29 15:02:56 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 21:02:56 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] R.I.P. Adrienne Rich
In-Reply-To: <CB98F09E.7DB3%GrahamD@ripon.edu>
References: <CB98F09E.7DB3%GrahamD@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyQ4Uvdm8AoozHL+Yu+GFuQYUkw-vxgE_fOWDUUuTMM7dA@mail.gmail.com>

My father at 85 was young, thus Adrienne even younger.
Death reaps us.

On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 11:45 PM, David Graham <GrahamD at ripon.edu> wrote:

>  Sad news:
>
> http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/jacketcopy/2012/03/adrienne-rich.html
>
>
> Tattered Kaddish
>
>
> Taurean reaper of the wild apple field
> messenger from earthmire gleaning
> transcripts of fog
> in the nineteenth year and the eleventh month
> speak your tattered Kaddish for all suicides:
>
> Praise to life though it crumbled in like a tunnel
> on ones we knew and loved
>
> Praise to life though its windows blew shut
> on the breathing-room of ones we knew and loved
>
> Praise to life though ones we knew and loved
> loved it badly, too well, and not enough
>
> Praise to life though it tightened like a knot
> on the hearts of ones we thought we knew loved us
>
> Praise to life giving room and reason
> to ones we knew and loved who felt unpraisable
>
> Praise to them, how they loved it, when they could.
>
> 1989
>
> --Adrienne Rich.  An Atlas of The Difficult World.  1991.
>
>
> --
>
> ========================================
> David Graham
> grahamd at ripon.edu
>
> Home Page:
> http://web.me.com/drjazz
>
> Poetry Library:
> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
> ==========================================
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From jforjames at aol.com  Thu Mar 29 19:34:07 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 19:34:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] R.I.P. Adrienne Rich
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsyQ4Uvdm8AoozHL+Yu+GFuQYUkw-vxgE_fOWDUUuTMM7dA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CB98F09E.7DB3%GrahamD@ripon.edu>
	<CA+9UsyQ4Uvdm8AoozHL+Yu+GFuQYUkw-vxgE_fOWDUUuTMM7dA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CEDC1B9225706C-300-14EF@webmail-m071.sysops.aol.com>


Tattered Kaddish
 
 
Taurean reaper of the wild apple field 
messenger from earthmire gleaning 
transcripts of fog 
in the nineteenth year and the eleventh month 
speak your tattered Kaddish for all suicides:
 
Praise to life though it crumbled in like a tunnel 
on ones we knew and loved
 
Praise to life though its windows blew shut 
on the breathing-room of ones we knew and loved
 
Praise to life though ones we knew and loved 
loved it badly, too well, and not enough
 
Praise to life though it tightened like a knot 
on the hearts of ones we thought we knew loved us
 
Praise to life giving room and reason 
to ones we knew and loved who felt unpraisable
 
Praise to them, how they loved it, when they could.
 
1989
 
 
--Adrienne Rich.  AnAtlas of The Difficult World.  1991.


Jim Finnegan
860-508-2810



-----Original Message-----
From: Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thu, Mar 29, 2012 3:03 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] R.I.P. Adrienne Rich


My father at 85 was young, thus Adrienne even younger.
Death reaps us.


On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 11:45 PM, David Graham <GrahamD at ripon.edu> wrote:

Sad news:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/jacketcopy/2012/03/adrienne-rich.html


Tattered Kaddish


Taurean reaper of the wild apple field 
messenger from earthmire gleaning 
transcripts of fog 
in the nineteenth year and the eleventh month 
speak your tattered Kaddish for all suicides:

Praise to life though it crumbled in like a tunnel 
on ones we knew and loved

Praise to life though its windows blew shut 
on the breathing-room of ones we knew and loved

Praise to life though ones we knew and loved 
loved it badly, too well, and not enough

Praise to life though it tightened like a knot 
on the hearts of ones we thought we knew loved us

Praise to life giving room and reason 
to ones we knew and loved who felt unpraisable

Praise to them, how they loved it, when they could.

1989

--Adrienne Rich.  An Atlas of The Difficult World.  1991.


-- 

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz

Poetry Library:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale


 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

 
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From jforjames at aol.com  Thu Mar 29 19:42:47 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 19:42:47 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] R.I.P. Adrienne Rich
In-Reply-To: <8CEDC1B9225706C-300-14EF@webmail-m071.sysops.aol.com>
References: <CB98F09E.7DB3%GrahamD@ripon.edu><CA+9UsyQ4Uvdm8AoozHL+Yu+GFuQYUkw-vxgE_fOWDUUuTMM7dA@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CEDC1B9225706C-300-14EF@webmail-m071.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8CEDC1CC7F5B190-300-1572@webmail-m071.sysops.aol.com>


?poetry 
isn't a revolution but a way of  knowing
why it must come.


--Adrienne Rich. "Driftwood,"  Time's Power: Poems 1985-1988.





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From carol.dorf at gmail.com  Thu Mar 29 19:47:01 2012
From: carol.dorf at gmail.com (carol dorf)
Date: Thu, 29 Mar 2012 16:47:01 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets -- Adrienne Rich
In-Reply-To: <4F74860D.7030400@louisiana.edu>
References: <F35D65F3-645B-4913-9F1A-A103C9CAB332@gmail.com>
	<CADY1rCane8UrkkUeW7tiwwvO4L23oi6+WeAYqmewHTENbKp+Og@mail.gmail.com>
	<B21ACD57-D9F2-4659-9480-21017F8B001D@comcast.net>
	<4F73BD85.30402@PitPinegar.com>
	<CAA11jR4R8C_Z+X=j5pEmhhiCdtc__b9RNWhkmc9Ft=HH6Evfdg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1333035060.45271.YahooMailNeo@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<1333035540.37410.YahooMailNeo@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<4F74860D.7030400@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <CABVBwJDhVNK00dkNwOAAh=GPAFS-G7Mx9VJJ9QML0b+_fGMX2A@mail.gmail.com>

That "Women and Honor" pamphlet was amazing -- I wonder how it would read
now. I also was very taken with "On Lies, Secrets, and Silence," and "Of
Woman Born."

Norton published a lovely pocket-sized edition of her essay, "Poetry and
Commitment," which was from a 2006 speech.

"For now, poetry has the capacity -- in its own ways and by its own means
-- to remind us of something we are forbidden to see. A forgotten future: a
still-uncreated site whose moral architecture is founded not on ownership
and dispossession, the subjection of women, torture and bribes, outcast and
tribe, but on the continuous redefining of freedom, -- that word now held
under house arrest by the rhetoric of the "free" market. This ongoing
future, written off over and over, is still within view. All over the world
its paths are being rediscovered and reinvented: through collective action,
through many kinds of art. Its elementary condition is the recovery and
redistribution of the world's resources that have been extracted from the
many by the few."

         Adrienne Rich, from *Poetry and Commitment, 2006*


May her memory be for a blessing,
Carol

On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 8:55 AM, Jerry McGuire <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu>wrote:

> **
> I first encountered Rich (whom I oddly never had a chance to hear read)
> through her early formal verse, which I thought was smart and
> elegant--maybe overly so; and then, later, through _Diving into the Wreck_
> and her pamphlet (later reprinted) "Women and Honor: Some Notes on Lying."
> The first of those grabbed me like a kind of emotional primer, and the
> latter shook me out of my shoes, and out of much else besides. It's very
> saddening to hear that she's gone.
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
>
> On 3/29/2012 10:39 AM, amy king wrote:
>
>  Over on the Women's Poetry listserv, I've found that it's heartening to
> hear accounts of first encounters with Rich through her work.  My own came
> as an undergrad when my then-teacher, Elaine Hedges, took us diving into
> the wreck ... Hedges, who recovered and wrote the afterword to "The Yellow
> Wallpaper," also brought Rich to read in Baltimore, a place she was fond
> of, in a church near the sadly now-defunct 31st Street Feminist Bookstore,
> which also sponsored her powerful reading.  I was too shy to do more than
> hover nearby at the end, but certainly that reading compounded what I
> sensed of her power and dedication to poetry, politics, and people.
>
>  So much of what is gone now also points forward to what is going, what
> is under fire via "austerity" cuts via economic downturns via a decline in
> income via the anti-intellectual strains ripping through headlines via the
> lazy need for convenience, etc.  Bookstores are ridding themselves of
> poetry aisles that aren't so lucrative, we're buying more and more online
> instead of from places like Unnameable Books, and we hear very little about
> just what poets like Rich contributed to a social and political
> consciousness.   Poets seem to be no threat at all anymore; their
> departures are barely noted.
>
>  I hope she meant something to a few on this list!
>
>  Best,
>
>  Amy
>
>  p.s.  Coincidentally, I spoke about her here recently:
> No Place for the Little Lyric -- Should Adrienne Rich be the poet
> laureate of the Occupy movement?
>
>  - http://www.poetryfoundation.org/features/audioitem/3188
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> --
> ________________________________________________________
>
> Jerry McGuire
> English Department    Box 44691
> University of Louisiana at Lafayette
> Lafayette LA 70504-4691337-482-5478
> Creative Writing Website:http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html
> ______________________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Carol Dorf
talkingwriting.com
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From editor at pavementsaw.org  Fri Mar 30 10:32:56 2012
From: editor at pavementsaw.org (David Baratier)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 07:32:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Adrienne Rich
Message-ID: <1333117976.86805.YahooMailClassic@web45602.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

here is a solid article on Rich & her passing

http://www.lambdaliterary.org/features/rem/03/29/in-remembrance-adrienne-rich/



Be well

David Baratier, Editor

Pavement Saw Press
321 Empire Street
Montpelier OH 43543
http://pavementsaw.org

Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at
http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1

Facebook Page
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=25857379734&ref=ts


From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 30 11:52:21 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 08:52:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets -- Adrienne Rich
In-Reply-To: <CABVBwJDhVNK00dkNwOAAh=GPAFS-G7Mx9VJJ9QML0b+_fGMX2A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1333122741.57384.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

I was struck by her prose as well.
Rich may have been the most politically committed (American) poet of the 20th century.
?
Her bio says a lot.
She was nurtured young, had the skill, and scored early (Yale Young Poets). 

--- On Thu, 3/29/12, carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com> wrote:


From: carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets -- Adrienne Rich
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Thursday, March 29, 2012, 7:47 PM







?

That "Women and Honor" pamphlet was amazing -- I wonder how it would read now. I also was very taken with "On Lies, Secrets, and Silence," and "Of Woman Born." 

Norton published a lovely pocket-sized edition of her essay, "Poetry and Commitment," which was from a 2006 speech.

"For now, poetry has the capacity -- in its own ways and by its own means -- to remind us of something we are forbidden to see. A forgotten future: a still-uncreated site whose moral architecture is founded not on ownership and dispossession, the subjection of women, torture and bribes, outcast and tribe, but on the continuous redefining of freedom, -- that word now held under house arrest by the rhetoric of the "free" market. This ongoing future, written off over and over, is still within view. All over the world its paths are being rediscovered and reinvented: through collective action, through many kinds of art. Its elementary condition is the recovery and redistribution of the world's resources that have been extracted from the many by the few."
???????? Adrienne Rich, from Poetry and Commitment, 2006

May her memory be for a blessing,
Carol


On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 8:55 AM, Jerry McGuire <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu> wrote:


I first encountered Rich (whom I oddly never had a chance to hear read) through her early formal verse, which I thought was smart and elegant--maybe overly so; and then, later, through _Diving into the Wreck_ and her pamphlet (later reprinted) "Women and Honor: Some Notes on Lying." The first of those grabbed me like a kind of emotional primer, and the latter shook me out of my shoes, and out of much else besides. It's very saddening to hear that she's gone.

Jerry

? 




On 3/29/2012 10:39 AM, amy king wrote: 





Over on the Women's Poetry listserv, I've found that it's heartening to hear accounts of first encounters with Rich through her work. ?My own came as an undergrad when my then-teacher, Elaine Hedges, took us diving into the wreck ... Hedges, who recovered and wrote the afterword to "The Yellow Wallpaper," also brought Rich to read in Baltimore, a place she was fond of, in a church near the sadly now-defunct 31st Street Feminist Bookstore, which also sponsored her powerful reading. ?I was too shy to do more than hover nearby at the end, but certainly that reading compounded what I sensed of her power and dedication to poetry, politics, and people. ?








So much of what is gone now also points forward to what is going, what is under fire via "austerity" cuts via economic downturns via a decline in income via the anti-intellectual strains ripping through headlines via the lazy need for convenience, etc. ?Bookstores are ridding themselves of poetry aisles that aren't so lucrative, we're buying more and more online instead of from places like Unnameable Books, and we hear very little about just what poets like Rich contributed to a social and political consciousness. ? Poets seem to be no threat at all anymore; their departures are barely noted. ?


I hope she meant something to a few on this list!


Best,


Amy


p.s. ?Coincidentally, I spoke about her here recently:?
No Place for the Little Lyric --?Should Adrienne Rich be the poet laureate of the Occupy movement?


-?http://www.poetryfoundation.org/features/audioitem/3188










_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-- 
________________________________________________________

Jerry McGuire
English Department    Box 44691
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70504-4691
337-482-5478
Creative Writing Website:
http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html
______________________________________________________


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




-- 
Carol Dorf
talkingwriting.com



-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu  Fri Mar 30 12:13:21 2012
From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 11:13:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets -- Adrienne Rich
In-Reply-To: <1333122741.57384.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1333122741.57384.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4F75DBA1.2050904@louisiana.edu>

More than Amiri Baraka? I'm not sure how you can measure these things, 
and Rich is certainly admirable in part for having stuck to her 
political guns despite lots of people not being wild about committed 
poetry. I suspect (this is part of what Cary Nelson's _Recovery and 
Repression_ is about) that great numbers of intensely politically 
committed poets have been forgotten, if they were ever heard of. So 
maybe you mean "may be the most politically committed (American) poet of 
the 20th century who managed to have a successful career"? I'd be 
interested to see lists of "politically committed poets of the 20th 
century" who matter to people on this list. (I suspect that Rich 
wouldn't find anything objectionable in this.)

Best,

Jerry

On 3/30/2012 10:52 AM, stephen russell wrote:
> I was struck by her prose as well.
> Rich may have been the most politically committed (American) poet of 
> the 20th century.
> Her bio says a lot.
> She was nurtured young, had the skill, and scored early (Yale Young 
> Poets).
>
> --- On *Thu, 3/29/12, carol dorf /<carol.dorf at gmail.com>/* wrote:
>
>
>     From: carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com>
>     Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets -- Adrienne Rich
>     To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>     Date: Thursday, March 29, 2012, 7:47 PM
>
>
>
>     That "Women and Honor" pamphlet was amazing -- I wonder how it
>     would read now. I also was very taken with "On Lies, Secrets, and
>     Silence," and "Of Woman Born."
>
>     Norton published a lovely pocket-sized edition of her essay,
>     "Poetry and Commitment," which was from a 2006 speech.
>
>     "For now, poetry has the capacity -- in its own ways and by its
>     own means -- to remind us of something we are forbidden to see. A
>     forgotten future: a still-uncreated site whose moral architecture
>     is founded not on ownership and dispossession, the subjection of
>     women, torture and bribes, outcast and tribe, but on the
>     continuous redefining of freedom, -- that word now held under
>     house arrest by the rhetoric of the "free" market. This ongoing
>     future, written off over and over, is still within view. All over
>     the world its paths are being rediscovered and reinvented: through
>     collective action, through many kinds of art. Its elementary
>     condition is the recovery and redistribution of the world's
>     resources that have been extracted from the many by the few."
>
>     Adrienne Rich, from /Poetry and Commitment, 2006/
>
>     May her memory be for a blessing,
>     Carol
>
>     On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 8:55 AM, Jerry McGuire
>     <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
>     <http://us.mc1619.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jlm8047 at louisiana.edu>>
>     wrote:
>
>         I first encountered Rich (whom I oddly never had a chance to
>         hear read) through her early formal verse, which I thought was
>         smart and elegant--maybe overly so; and then, later, through
>         _Diving into the Wreck_ and her pamphlet (later reprinted)
>         "Women and Honor: Some Notes on Lying." The first of those
>         grabbed me like a kind of emotional primer, and the latter
>         shook me out of my shoes, and out of much else besides. It's
>         very saddening to hear that she's gone.
>
>         Jerry
>
>
>
>         On 3/29/2012 10:39 AM, amy king wrote:
>>         Over on the Women's Poetry listserv, I've found that it's
>>         heartening to hear accounts of first encounters with Rich
>>         through her work.  My own came as an undergrad when my
>>         then-teacher, Elaine Hedges, took us diving into the wreck
>>         ... Hedges, who recovered and wrote the afterword to "The
>>         Yellow Wallpaper," also brought Rich to read in Baltimore, a
>>         place she was fond of, in a church near the sadly now-defunct
>>         31st Street Feminist Bookstore, which also sponsored her
>>         powerful reading.  I was too shy to do more than hover nearby
>>         at the end, but certainly that reading compounded what I
>>         sensed of her power and dedication to poetry, politics, and
>>         people.
>>
>>         So much of what is gone now also points forward to what is
>>         going, what is under fire via "austerity" cuts via economic
>>         downturns via a decline in income via the anti-intellectual
>>         strains ripping through headlines via the lazy need for
>>         convenience, etc.  Bookstores are ridding themselves of
>>         poetry aisles that aren't so lucrative, we're buying more and
>>         more online instead of from places like Unnameable Books, and
>>         we hear very little about just what poets like Rich
>>         contributed to a social and political consciousness.   Poets
>>         seem to be no threat at all anymore; their departures are
>>         barely noted.
>>
>>         I hope she meant something to a few on this list!
>>
>>         Best,
>>
>>         Amy
>>
>>         p.s.  Coincidentally, I spoke about her here recently:
>>         No Place for the Little Lyric -- Should Adrienne Rich be the
>>         poet laureate of the Occupy movement?
>>
>>         - http://www.poetryfoundation.org/features/audioitem/3188
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>         _______________________________________________
>>         New-Poetry mailing list
>>         New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu  <http://us.mc1619.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>         http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>         -- 
>         ________________________________________________________
>
>         Jerry McGuire
>         English Department    Box 44691
>         University of Louisiana at Lafayette
>         Lafayette LA 70504-4691
>         337-482-5478
>         Creative Writing Website:
>         http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html
>         ______________________________________________________
>
>
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         New-Poetry mailing list
>         New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>         <http://us.mc1619.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>         http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
>     -- 
>     Carol Dorf
>     talkingwriting.com <http://talkingwriting.com/>
>
>
>
>     -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     New-Poetry mailing list
>     New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>     <http://us.mc1619.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>     http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506
jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
337-482-5478

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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 30 12:26:23 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 09:26:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets -- Adrienne Rich
Message-ID: <1333124783.18147.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>






Excellent point. Most political poetry (preaching to the choir) is dull propaganda. & Rich had the skill to write from her political passion, avoiding the rhetorical postures of less?skilled poets. You mentioned Baraka. & I forgot to mention Muriel Rukeyser.
?
&?... outside the U.S. ... many fine Latin American (engaged)?poets ...?plus B?Brecht.

--- On Fri, 3/30/12, Jerry McGuire <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu> wrote:


From: Jerry McGuire <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets -- Adrienne Rich
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at charlemagne.cddc.vt.edu>
Date: Friday, March 30, 2012, 12:13 PM



More than Amiri Baraka? I'm not sure how you can measure these things, and Rich is certainly admirable in part for having stuck to her political guns despite lots of people not being wild about committed poetry. I suspect (this is part of what Cary Nelson's _Recovery and Repression_ is about) that great numbers of intensely politically committed poets have been forgotten, if they were ever heard of. So maybe you mean "may be the most politically committed (American) poet of the 20th century who managed to have a successful career"? I'd be interested to see lists of "politically committed poets of the 20th century" who matter to people on this list. (I suspect that Rich wouldn't find anything objectionable in this.)

Best,

Jerry

On 3/30/2012 10:52 AM, stephen russell wrote: 





I was struck by her prose as well.
Rich may have been the most politically committed (American) poet of the 20th century.
?
Her bio says a lot.
She was nurtured young, had the skill, and scored early (Yale Young Poets). 

--- On Thu, 3/29/12, carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com> wrote:


From: carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets -- Adrienne Rich
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Thursday, March 29, 2012, 7:47 PM







?


That "Women and Honor" pamphlet was amazing -- I wonder how it would read now. I also was very taken with "On Lies, Secrets, and Silence," and "Of Woman Born." 

Norton published a lovely pocket-sized edition of her essay, "Poetry and Commitment," which was from a 2006 speech.

"For now, poetry has the capacity -- in its own ways and by its own means -- to remind us of something we are forbidden to see. A forgotten future: a still-uncreated site whose moral architecture is founded not on ownership and dispossession, the subjection of women, torture and bribes, outcast and tribe, but on the continuous redefining of freedom, -- that word now held under house arrest by the rhetoric of the "free" market. This ongoing future, written off over and over, is still within view. All over the world its paths are being rediscovered and reinvented: through collective action, through many kinds of art. Its elementary condition is the recovery and redistribution of the world's resources that have been extracted from the many by the few." 

???????? Adrienne Rich, from Poetry and Commitment, 2006

May her memory be for a blessing,
Carol


On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 8:55 AM, Jerry McGuire <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu> wrote:


I first encountered Rich (whom I oddly never had a chance to hear read) through her early formal verse, which I thought was smart and elegant--maybe overly so; and then, later, through _Diving into the Wreck_ and her pamphlet (later reprinted) "Women and Honor: Some Notes on Lying." The first of those grabbed me like a kind of emotional primer, and the latter shook me out of my shoes, and out of much else besides. It's very saddening to hear that she's gone.

Jerry

? 



On 3/29/2012 10:39 AM, amy king wrote: 




Over on the Women's Poetry listserv, I've found that it's heartening to hear accounts of first encounters with Rich through her work. ?My own came as an undergrad when my then-teacher, Elaine Hedges, took us diving into the wreck ... Hedges, who recovered and wrote the afterword to "The Yellow Wallpaper," also brought Rich to read in Baltimore, a place she was fond of, in a church near the sadly now-defunct 31st Street Feminist Bookstore, which also sponsored her powerful reading. ?I was too shy to do more than hover nearby at the end, but certainly that reading compounded what I sensed of her power and dedication to poetry, politics, and people. ?








So much of what is gone now also points forward to what is going, what is under fire via "austerity" cuts via economic downturns via a decline in income via the anti-intellectual strains ripping through headlines via the lazy need for convenience, etc. ?Bookstores are ridding themselves of poetry aisles that aren't so lucrative, we're buying more and more online instead of from places like Unnameable Books, and we hear very little about just what poets like Rich contributed to a social and political consciousness. ? Poets seem to be no threat at all anymore; their departures are barely noted. ?


I hope she meant something to a few on this list!


Best,


Amy


p.s. ?Coincidentally, I spoke about her here recently:?
No Place for the Little Lyric --?Should Adrienne Rich be the poet laureate of the Occupy movement?


-?http://www.poetryfoundation.org/features/audioitem/3188










_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-- 
________________________________________________________

Jerry McGuire
English Department    Box 44691
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70504-4691
337-482-5478
Creative Writing Website:
http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html
______________________________________________________


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




-- 
Carol Dorf
talkingwriting.com



-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506
jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
337-482-5478

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 30 12:35:01 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 09:35:01 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets -- Adrienne Rich
In-Reply-To: <1333124783.18147.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1333125301.47888.YahooMailClassic@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

I'd be interested to see lists of "politically committed poets of the 20th century" who matter to people on this list.
?
Paul Celan.
?
I'd like to know more about his meeting with Heidegger.


--- On Fri, 3/30/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:


From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets -- Adrienne Rich
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Friday, March 30, 2012, 12:26 PM












Excellent point. Most political poetry (preaching to the choir) is dull propaganda. & Rich had the skill to write from her political passion, avoiding the rhetorical postures of less?skilled poets. You mentioned Baraka. & I forgot to mention Muriel Rukeyser.
?
&?... outside the U.S. ... many fine Latin American (engaged)?poets ...?plus B?Brecht.

--- On Fri, 3/30/12, Jerry McGuire <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu> wrote:


From: Jerry McGuire <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets -- Adrienne Rich
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at charlemagne.cddc.vt.edu>
Date: Friday, March 30, 2012, 12:13 PM



More than Amiri Baraka? I'm not sure how you can measure these things, and Rich is certainly admirable in part for having stuck to her political guns despite lots of people not being wild about committed poetry. I suspect (this is part of what Cary Nelson's _Recovery and Repression_ is about) that great numbers of intensely politically committed poets have been forgotten, if they were ever heard of. So maybe you mean "may be the most politically committed (American) poet of the 20th century who managed to have a successful career"? I'd be interested to see lists of "politically committed poets of the 20th century" who matter to people on this list. (I suspect that Rich wouldn't find anything objectionable in this.)

Best,

Jerry

On 3/30/2012 10:52 AM, stephen russell wrote: 





I was struck by her prose as well.
Rich may have been the most politically committed (American) poet of the 20th century.
?
Her bio says a lot.
She was nurtured young, had the skill, and scored early (Yale Young Poets). 

--- On Thu, 3/29/12, carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com> wrote:


From: carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets -- Adrienne Rich
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Thursday, March 29, 2012, 7:47 PM







?



That "Women and Honor" pamphlet was amazing -- I wonder how it would read now. I also was very taken with "On Lies, Secrets, and Silence," and "Of Woman Born." 

Norton published a lovely pocket-sized edition of her essay, "Poetry and Commitment," which was from a 2006 speech.

"For now, poetry has the capacity -- in its own ways and by its own means -- to remind us of something we are forbidden to see. A forgotten future: a still-uncreated site whose moral architecture is founded not on ownership and dispossession, the subjection of women, torture and bribes, outcast and tribe, but on the continuous redefining of freedom, -- that word now held under house arrest by the rhetoric of the "free" market. This ongoing future, written off over and over, is still within view. All over the world its paths are being rediscovered and reinvented: through collective action, through many kinds of art. Its elementary condition is the recovery and redistribution of the world's resources that have been extracted from the many by the few." 

???????? Adrienne Rich, from Poetry and Commitment, 2006

May her memory be for a blessing,
Carol


On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 8:55 AM, Jerry McGuire <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu> wrote:


I first encountered Rich (whom I oddly never had a chance to hear read) through her early formal verse, which I thought was smart and elegant--maybe overly so; and then, later, through _Diving into the Wreck_ and her pamphlet (later reprinted) "Women and Honor: Some Notes on Lying." The first of those grabbed me like a kind of emotional primer, and the latter shook me out of my shoes, and out of much else besides. It's very saddening to hear that she's gone.

Jerry

? 



On 3/29/2012 10:39 AM, amy king wrote: 




Over on the Women's Poetry listserv, I've found that it's heartening to hear accounts of first encounters with Rich through her work. ?My own came as an undergrad when my then-teacher, Elaine Hedges, took us diving into the wreck ... Hedges, who recovered and wrote the afterword to "The Yellow Wallpaper," also brought Rich to read in Baltimore, a place she was fond of, in a church near the sadly now-defunct 31st Street Feminist Bookstore, which also sponsored her powerful reading. ?I was too shy to do more than hover nearby at the end, but certainly that reading compounded what I sensed of her power and dedication to poetry, politics, and people. ?








So much of what is gone now also points forward to what is going, what is under fire via "austerity" cuts via economic downturns via a decline in income via the anti-intellectual strains ripping through headlines via the lazy need for convenience, etc. ?Bookstores are ridding themselves of poetry aisles that aren't so lucrative, we're buying more and more online instead of from places like Unnameable Books, and we hear very little about just what poets like Rich contributed to a social and political consciousness. ? Poets seem to be no threat at all anymore; their departures are barely noted. ?


I hope she meant something to a few on this list!


Best,


Amy


p.s. ?Coincidentally, I spoke about her here recently:?
No Place for the Little Lyric --?Should Adrienne Rich be the poet laureate of the Occupy movement?


-?http://www.poetryfoundation.org/features/audioitem/3188










_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-- 
________________________________________________________

Jerry McGuire
English Department    Box 44691
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70504-4691
337-482-5478
Creative Writing Website:
http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html
______________________________________________________


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




-- 
Carol Dorf
talkingwriting.com



-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506
jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
337-482-5478

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Fri Mar 30 12:57:16 2012
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 11:57:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets -- Adrienne Rich
In-Reply-To: <4F75DBA1.2050904@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <CB9B501C.7E5F%GrahamD@ripon.edu>

Two poets who spring immediately to my mind would be Wendell Berry and
Hayden Carruth.  But so many others, really.

As it happens, Berry wrote a wonderful essay about the topic of political
poetry, examining the following poem by Carruth.  The essay?s titled ?A Poem
of Difficult Hope? and is well worth searching out.  Can?t remember which
collection it appears in.  But here?s Carruth?s poem:

On Being asked to Write a Poem Against the War in Viet Nam

Well I have and in fact
more than one and I'll
tell you this too

I wrote one against
Algeria that nightmare
and another against

Korea and another
against the one
I was in

and I don't remember
how many against
the three

when I was a boy
Abyssinia Spain
and Harlan County

and not one
breath was restored
to one

shattered throat
mans womans or childs
not one not

one
but death went on and on
never looking aside

except now and then like a child
with a furtive half-smile
to make sure I was noticing.

--Hayden Carruth



On 3/30/12 11:13 AM, "Jerry McGuire" <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu> wrote:

> I'd be interested to see lists of "politically committed poets of the 20th
> century" who matter to people on this list. (I suspect that Rich wouldn't find
> anything objectionable in this.)
>  
>  Best,
>  
>  Jerry
>  

-- 

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz

Poetry Library:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================


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From halvard at gmail.com  Fri Mar 30 12:57:25 2012
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 10:57:25 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets -- Adrienne Rich
In-Reply-To: <1333122741.57384.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <CABVBwJDhVNK00dkNwOAAh=GPAFS-G7Mx9VJJ9QML0b+_fGMX2A@mail.gmail.com>
	<1333122741.57384.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CANrCfqEJdB=W4wm9-O+4d1dCxzS-7vcGkrFbK_=0VmB_H5Y7=A@mail.gmail.com>

With the possible exception of Daniel Berrigan.


Serving the tri-state area.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com

On Barcelona <http://onbarcelona.blogspot.com/> (submissions sought; email
to my address above)
Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
Remains To Be Seen <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>*, Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. II) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>,** Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. III) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Sonnets
from the Basque & Other Poems <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>
*, *Mainly Black <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Obras
P?blicas <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **The Perfection
of Mozart's Third Eye and Other
Sonnets<http://www.scribd.com/doc/27039868/Halvard-Johnson-THE-PERFECTION-OF-MOZART-S-THIRD-EYE-Other-Sonnets>
; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of
Clones<http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Entrance-Clones-Halvard-Johnson/dp/0965404390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283182804&sr=8-1>
; **Tango Bouquet <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **Theory
of Harmony<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall04/theory1.pdf>
; **Rapsodie espagnole<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/rapsodi.pdf>
; **Guide to the Tokyo
Subway<http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Tokyo-Subway-Other-Poems/dp/0971487316/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283183153&sr=1-3>
; **The Sonnet Project<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/hsonnet.pdf>
; **G(e)nome <http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall03/genome.pdf>; **Winter
Journey <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.winter.html>;
**Eclipse<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.eclipse.html>
; **The Dance of the Red Swan <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.dance.html>
; **Transparencies & Projections<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.transp.html>
*




On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 9:52 AM, stephen russell <
poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I was struck by her prose as well.
> Rich may have been the most politically committed (American) poet of the
> 20th century.
>
> Her bio says a lot.
> She was nurtured young, had the skill, and scored early (Yale Young
> Poets).
>
> --- On *Thu, 3/29/12, carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com>* wrote:
>
>
> From: carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets -- Adrienne Rich
> To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Date: Thursday, March 29, 2012, 7:47 PM
>
>
>
>
> That "Women and Honor" pamphlet was amazing -- I wonder how it would read
> now. I also was very taken with "On Lies, Secrets, and Silence," and "Of
> Woman Born."
>
> Norton published a lovely pocket-sized edition of her essay, "Poetry and
> Commitment," which was from a 2006 speech.
>
> "For now, poetry has the capacity -- in its own ways and by its own means
> -- to remind us of something we are forbidden to see. A forgotten future: a
> still-uncreated site whose moral architecture is founded not on ownership
> and dispossession, the subjection of women, torture and bribes, outcast and
> tribe, but on the continuous redefining of freedom, -- that word now held
> under house arrest by the rhetoric of the "free" market. This ongoing
> future, written off over and over, is still within view. All over the world
> its paths are being rediscovered and reinvented: through collective action,
> through many kinds of art. Its elementary condition is the recovery and
> redistribution of the world's resources that have been extracted from the
> many by the few."
>
>          Adrienne Rich, from *Poetry and Commitment, 2006*
>
> May her memory be for a blessing,
> Carol
>
> On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 8:55 AM, Jerry McGuire <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu<http://us.mc1619.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jlm8047 at louisiana.edu>
> > wrote:
>
> **
> I first encountered Rich (whom I oddly never had a chance to hear read)
> through her early formal verse, which I thought was smart and
> elegant--maybe overly so; and then, later, through _Diving into the Wreck_
> and her pamphlet (later reprinted) "Women and Honor: Some Notes on Lying."
> The first of those grabbed me like a kind of emotional primer, and the
> latter shook me out of my shoes, and out of much else besides. It's very
> saddening to hear that she's gone.
>
> Jerry
>
>
>
>
> On 3/29/2012 10:39 AM, amy king wrote:
>
>   Over on the Women's Poetry listserv, I've found that it's heartening to
> hear accounts of first encounters with Rich through her work.  My own came
> as an undergrad when my then-teacher, Elaine Hedges, took us diving into
> the wreck ... Hedges, who recovered and wrote the afterword to "The Yellow
> Wallpaper," also brought Rich to read in Baltimore, a place she was fond
> of, in a church near the sadly now-defunct 31st Street Feminist Bookstore,
> which also sponsored her powerful reading.  I was too shy to do more than
> hover nearby at the end, but certainly that reading compounded what I
> sensed of her power and dedication to poetry, politics, and people.
>
> So much of what is gone now also points forward to what is going, what is
> under fire via "austerity" cuts via economic downturns via a decline in
> income via the anti-intellectual strains ripping through headlines via the
> lazy need for convenience, etc.  Bookstores are ridding themselves of
> poetry aisles that aren't so lucrative, we're buying more and more online
> instead of from places like Unnameable Books, and we hear very little about
> just what poets like Rich contributed to a social and political
> consciousness.   Poets seem to be no threat at all anymore; their
> departures are barely noted.
>
> I hope she meant something to a few on this list!
>
> Best,
>
> Amy
>
> p.s.  Coincidentally, I spoke about her here recently:
> No Place for the Little Lyric -- Should Adrienne Rich be the poet
> laureate of the Occupy movement?
>
> - http://www.poetryfoundation.org/features/audioitem/3188
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <http://us.mc1619.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> --
> ________________________________________________________
>
> Jerry McGuire
> English Department    Box 44691
> University of Louisiana at Lafayette
> Lafayette LA 70504-4691337-482-5478
> Creative Writing Website:http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html
> ______________________________________________________
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu<http://us.mc1619.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
> --
> Carol Dorf
> talkingwriting.com
>
>
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu<http://us.mc1619.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From GrahamD at ripon.edu  Fri Mar 30 12:59:00 2012
From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (David Graham)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 11:59:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Carruth on Rich
Message-ID: <CB9B5084.7E63%GrahamD@ripon.edu>

And here?s a poem that Hayden Carruth wrote for Adrienne Rich:

http://www.forpoetry.com/Archive/selected_poems_from_this_art.htm
-- 

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz

Poetry Library:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================


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From halvard at gmail.com  Fri Mar 30 13:00:35 2012
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 11:00:35 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets -- Adrienne Rich
In-Reply-To: <CANrCfqEJdB=W4wm9-O+4d1dCxzS-7vcGkrFbK_=0VmB_H5Y7=A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABVBwJDhVNK00dkNwOAAh=GPAFS-G7Mx9VJJ9QML0b+_fGMX2A@mail.gmail.com>
	<1333122741.57384.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<CANrCfqEJdB=W4wm9-O+4d1dCxzS-7vcGkrFbK_=0VmB_H5Y7=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANrCfqG3F5itzUtVGCw9OpNs2QZTzx+1F89e4Hq=4NH4f7NxUw@mail.gmail.com>

And let's not forget Thomas Merton. And Eugene McCarthy.


Serving the tri-state area.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com

On Barcelona <http://onbarcelona.blogspot.com/> (submissions sought; email
to my address above)
Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
Remains To Be Seen <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>*, Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. II) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>,** Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. III) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Sonnets
from the Basque & Other Poems <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>
*, *Mainly Black <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Obras
P?blicas <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **The Perfection
of Mozart's Third Eye and Other
Sonnets<http://www.scribd.com/doc/27039868/Halvard-Johnson-THE-PERFECTION-OF-MOZART-S-THIRD-EYE-Other-Sonnets>
; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of
Clones<http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Entrance-Clones-Halvard-Johnson/dp/0965404390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283182804&sr=8-1>
; **Tango Bouquet <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **Theory
of Harmony<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall04/theory1.pdf>
; **Rapsodie espagnole<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/rapsodi.pdf>
; **Guide to the Tokyo
Subway<http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Tokyo-Subway-Other-Poems/dp/0971487316/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283183153&sr=1-3>
; **The Sonnet Project<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/hsonnet.pdf>
; **G(e)nome <http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall03/genome.pdf>; **Winter
Journey <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.winter.html>;
**Eclipse<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.eclipse.html>
; **The Dance of the Red Swan <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.dance.html>
; **Transparencies & Projections<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.transp.html>
*




On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 10:57 AM, Halvard Johnson <halvard at gmail.com> wrote:

> With the possible exception of Daniel Berrigan.
>
>
> Serving the tri-state area.
>
> Hal
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
>
> halvard at gmail.com
>
> On Barcelona <http://onbarcelona.blogspot.com/> (submissions sought;
> email to my address above)
> Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175
> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
> <http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
> https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/
>  <http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
> Remains To Be Seen <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>*, Remains
> To Be Seen (Vol. II) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>,** Remains
> To Be Seen (Vol. III) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Sonnets
> from the Basque & Other Poems<https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>
> *, *Mainly Black <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Obras
> P?blicas <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **The Perfection
> of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets<http://www.scribd.com/doc/27039868/Halvard-Johnson-THE-PERFECTION-OF-MOZART-S-THIRD-EYE-Other-Sonnets>
> ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones<http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Entrance-Clones-Halvard-Johnson/dp/0965404390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283182804&sr=8-1>
> ; **Tango Bouquet <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **Theory
> of Harmony<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall04/theory1.pdf>
> ; **Rapsodie espagnole<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/rapsodi.pdf>
> ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway<http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Tokyo-Subway-Other-Poems/dp/0971487316/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283183153&sr=1-3>
> ; **The Sonnet Project<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/hsonnet.pdf>
> ; **G(e)nome <http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall03/genome.pdf>; **Winter
> Journey <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.winter.html>; **Eclipse<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.eclipse.html>
> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.dance.html>
> ; **Transparencies & Projections<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.transp.html>
> *
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 9:52 AM, stephen russell <
> poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I was struck by her prose as well.
>> Rich may have been the most politically committed (American) poet of the
>> 20th century.
>>
>> Her bio says a lot.
>> She was nurtured young, had the skill, and scored early (Yale Young
>> Poets).
>>
>> --- On *Thu, 3/29/12, carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com>* wrote:
>>
>>
>> From: carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets -- Adrienne Rich
>> To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> Date: Thursday, March 29, 2012, 7:47 PM
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> That "Women and Honor" pamphlet was amazing -- I wonder how it would read
>> now. I also was very taken with "On Lies, Secrets, and Silence," and "Of
>> Woman Born."
>>
>> Norton published a lovely pocket-sized edition of her essay, "Poetry and
>> Commitment," which was from a 2006 speech.
>>
>> "For now, poetry has the capacity -- in its own ways and by its own means
>> -- to remind us of something we are forbidden to see. A forgotten future: a
>> still-uncreated site whose moral architecture is founded not on ownership
>> and dispossession, the subjection of women, torture and bribes, outcast and
>> tribe, but on the continuous redefining of freedom, -- that word now held
>> under house arrest by the rhetoric of the "free" market. This ongoing
>> future, written off over and over, is still within view. All over the world
>> its paths are being rediscovered and reinvented: through collective action,
>> through many kinds of art. Its elementary condition is the recovery and
>> redistribution of the world's resources that have been extracted from the
>> many by the few."
>>
>>          Adrienne Rich, from *Poetry and Commitment, 2006*
>>
>> May her memory be for a blessing,
>> Carol
>>
>> On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 8:55 AM, Jerry McGuire <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu<http://us.mc1619.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jlm8047 at louisiana.edu>
>> > wrote:
>>
>> **
>> I first encountered Rich (whom I oddly never had a chance to hear read)
>> through her early formal verse, which I thought was smart and
>> elegant--maybe overly so; and then, later, through _Diving into the Wreck_
>> and her pamphlet (later reprinted) "Women and Honor: Some Notes on Lying."
>> The first of those grabbed me like a kind of emotional primer, and the
>> latter shook me out of my shoes, and out of much else besides. It's very
>> saddening to hear that she's gone.
>>
>> Jerry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/29/2012 10:39 AM, amy king wrote:
>>
>>   Over on the Women's Poetry listserv, I've found that it's heartening
>> to hear accounts of first encounters with Rich through her work.  My own
>> came as an undergrad when my then-teacher, Elaine Hedges, took us diving
>> into the wreck ... Hedges, who recovered and wrote the afterword to "The
>> Yellow Wallpaper," also brought Rich to read in Baltimore, a place she was
>> fond of, in a church near the sadly now-defunct 31st Street Feminist
>> Bookstore, which also sponsored her powerful reading.  I was too shy to do
>> more than hover nearby at the end, but certainly that reading compounded
>> what I sensed of her power and dedication to poetry, politics, and people.
>>
>> So much of what is gone now also points forward to what is going, what is
>> under fire via "austerity" cuts via economic downturns via a decline in
>> income via the anti-intellectual strains ripping through headlines via the
>> lazy need for convenience, etc.  Bookstores are ridding themselves of
>> poetry aisles that aren't so lucrative, we're buying more and more online
>> instead of from places like Unnameable Books, and we hear very little about
>> just what poets like Rich contributed to a social and political
>> consciousness.   Poets seem to be no threat at all anymore; their
>> departures are barely noted.
>>
>> I hope she meant something to a few on this list!
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> Amy
>>
>> p.s.  Coincidentally, I spoke about her here recently:
>> No Place for the Little Lyric -- Should Adrienne Rich be the poet
>> laureate of the Occupy movement?
>>
>> - http://www.poetryfoundation.org/features/audioitem/3188
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <http://us.mc1619.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>> --
>> ________________________________________________________
>>
>> Jerry McGuire
>> English Department    Box 44691
>> University of Louisiana at Lafayette
>> Lafayette LA 70504-4691337-482-5478
>> Creative Writing Website:http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html
>> ______________________________________________________
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu<http://us.mc1619.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Carol Dorf
>> talkingwriting.com
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu<http://us.mc1619.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 30 13:01:09 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 10:01:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets -- Adrienne Rich
In-Reply-To: <CANrCfqEJdB=W4wm9-O+4d1dCxzS-7vcGkrFbK_=0VmB_H5Y7=A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1333126869.32676.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

?





DAPHNE GOTTLIEB




?


NO POETRY AFTER AUSCHWITZ


said Adorno, but there are still
poems, in a mark of arrogance or hope,
maybe both.
This is not a poem
it is a rock
through a window?
it is a smash
and run?
it is a broken capitalism machine
150 miles
from Baghdad.
The television is on at the law firm.
There is no business as usual.
The building is surrounded by fences
and riot cops
who are fighting the crime
of free speech, free assembly.
Yesterday they dragged a woman by her hair.
Today, last night, three days ago,
the Anarchists covered their faces
hid Molotov cocktails in the bushes.
On our way to the protest, my friend tells me,
I am not covering my face.
It seems it?s one of the fundamental freedoms left.
I have a bandana in my pocket
just in case.
I am trying to find ways
to stem my own anger,
my body a grenade rolling in the street
teeth clenched, handing out flowers
stolen from the lobby of a law firm
to the motorists we delay, thanking them
for their patience
while the U.S. bombs
the fuck out of another country
it has already starved to death.
I am trying to find reasons not 
to smash things. Last night an American soldier
threw three grenades into commanders? tents.
They say he acted out of ?resentment?.
I understand resentment
I believe in nonviolence
I stick my hands in my pockets 
to make sure
I don?t pick up a rock
?
2.
one we are the people
Two A Little Bit Louder Now
Three Who Are Going
FOUR TO STOP THIS WAR
There are protestors in white
armed with saxophones, drums,
dance training
Show me what democracy looks like?
THIS IS WHAT DEMOCRACY
LOOKS LIKE
The protesters in white have forgotten 
the difference between protest
and performance,
the difference between comrades
and audience.
They will make the evening news.
?
3.
In New York
ground zero kids tell me
the cop psyop wagon broadcast:
"The march is now over.
Please leave the area 
in an orderly fashion." 
New York stood in front of the truck,
got a bullhorn 
and started shouting 
"THE WAR IS NOW OVER. 
PLEASE LEAVE IRAQ 
IN AN ORDERLY FASHION"
In Chicago,
they are dancing in the streets
to block traffic.
This resistance
will not be joyless.
Outside the Federal Building,
a mobile generator
on a bike-drawn cart, 
huge speakers
blare NOT IN MY NAME
a marching band plays ?War Pigs?
the DJ?s fist is in the air
a Dixieland band plays
?Down by the Riverside?
and we dance in the street
?
4.
Yes, remember
Rachel Corrie
killed by a bulldozer 
but she put her own body
on the line
using her own privilege,
her own choice. How many
have died with nothing
but their geography to blame?
How many names will we never
hear because they
had brown skin, not white?
Because of lines they
never drew and could not
get outside of? Because
they
are not
?ours??
?
5.
Whose streets?
OUR STREETS.
Whose streets?
?
6.
The rich restaurateur who is 
a San Francisco Supervisor
says, ?We will prosecute
protestors to the fullest
extent of the law.? Write
the legal aid phone number
on your forearm. Listen
for the order to disperse.
Go limp.
Do not fight the cops.
Watch your back.
?
7.
It is terrifying how quickly
?Free Palestine?
becomes
?End the Occupation?
becomes
?Kill the Jews?
?
8.
At work, the secretaries
are watching with shock and awe.
I want to know
if there?s a body count.
12, they tell me.
Iraqis? Really?
Oh no, they say, sipping coffee,
eating salads, fries. 
That?s Americans. 
That?s the only number
we?ve heard.
That?s the only number.
?
9.
Whose streets?
OUR STREETS!
Whose streets?
Thursday, we shut down the Federal Building.
We shut down Bechtel. We blitzed Halliburton.
We shut down the Bay Bridge.
I say ?we? because I watched it on TV.
I say ?we? because I was there.
I say ?we? as I write this in sunny San Francisco
on a fully loaded computer
smoking multinational corporate cigarettes,
before I eat breakfast, 
after I?ve slept adequately
in a warm house
full of love.
I am waiting for
text messages from the antiwar bloc
to show up on my cell phone.
?
10.
Lighting candles, signing petitions
blocking intersections, chanting,
walking until my feet are blistered
shouting until my throat is raw
I?m trying so hard to change things
but I can?t even get the blood off my hands.
?

--- On Fri, 3/30/12, Halvard Johnson <halvard at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Halvard Johnson <halvard at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets -- Adrienne Rich
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Friday, March 30, 2012, 12:57 PM


With the possible exception of Daniel Berrigan.



?? ?



Serving the tri-state area.


Hal
Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com


On Barcelona (submissions sought; email to my address above)
Truck:?https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/



Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan;?Transparencies & Projections






On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 9:52 AM, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:






I was struck by her prose as well.
Rich may have been the most politically committed (American) poet of the 20th century.
?
Her bio says a lot.
She was nurtured young, had the skill, and scored early (Yale Young Poets). 

--- On Thu, 3/29/12, carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com> wrote:


From: carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets -- Adrienne Rich
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Thursday, March 29, 2012, 7:47 PM



?

That "Women and Honor" pamphlet was amazing -- I wonder how it would read now. I also was very taken with "On Lies, Secrets, and Silence," and "Of Woman Born." 

Norton published a lovely pocket-sized edition of her essay, "Poetry and Commitment," which was from a 2006 speech.

"For now, poetry has the capacity -- in its own ways and by its own means -- to remind us of something we are forbidden to see. A forgotten future: a still-uncreated site whose moral architecture is founded not on ownership and dispossession, the subjection of women, torture and bribes, outcast and tribe, but on the continuous redefining of freedom, -- that word now held under house arrest by the rhetoric of the "free" market. This ongoing future, written off over and over, is still within view. All over the world its paths are being rediscovered and reinvented: through collective action, through many kinds of art. Its elementary condition is the recovery and redistribution of the world's resources that have been extracted from the many by the few." 
???????? Adrienne Rich, from Poetry and Commitment, 2006

May her memory be for a blessing,
Carol


On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 8:55 AM, Jerry McGuire <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu> wrote:


I first encountered Rich (whom I oddly never had a chance to hear read) through her early formal verse, which I thought was smart and elegant--maybe overly so; and then, later, through _Diving into the Wreck_ and her pamphlet (later reprinted) "Women and Honor: Some Notes on Lying." The first of those grabbed me like a kind of emotional primer, and the latter shook me out of my shoes, and out of much else besides. It's very saddening to hear that she's gone.

Jerry

? 




On 3/29/2012 10:39 AM, amy king wrote: 





Over on the Women's Poetry listserv, I've found that it's heartening to hear accounts of first encounters with Rich through her work. ?My own came as an undergrad when my then-teacher, Elaine Hedges, took us diving into the wreck ... Hedges, who recovered and wrote the afterword to "The Yellow Wallpaper," also brought Rich to read in Baltimore, a place she was fond of, in a church near the sadly now-defunct 31st Street Feminist Bookstore, which also sponsored her powerful reading. ?I was too shy to do more than hover nearby at the end, but certainly that reading compounded what I sensed of her power and dedication to poetry, politics, and people. ?








So much of what is gone now also points forward to what is going, what is under fire via "austerity" cuts via economic downturns via a decline in income via the anti-intellectual strains ripping through headlines via the lazy need for convenience, etc. ?Bookstores are ridding themselves of poetry aisles that aren't so lucrative, we're buying more and more online instead of from places like Unnameable Books, and we hear very little about just what poets like Rich contributed to a social and political consciousness. ? Poets seem to be no threat at all anymore; their departures are barely noted. ?


I hope she meant something to a few on this list!


Best,


Amy


p.s. ?Coincidentally, I spoke about her here recently:?
No Place for the Little Lyric --?Should Adrienne Rich be the poet laureate of the Occupy movement?


-?http://www.poetryfoundation.org/features/audioitem/3188










_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-- 
________________________________________________________

Jerry McGuire
English Department    Box 44691
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70504-4691
337-482-5478
Creative Writing Website:
http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html
______________________________________________________


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




-- 
Carol Dorf
talkingwriting.com



-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Fri Mar 30 13:35:33 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 10:35:33 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets -- Adrienne Rich
In-Reply-To: <1333126869.32676.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1333128933.66791.YahooMailClassic@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Political poetry ... war poetry ... 

?

The War in the Air 
Howard Nemerov
?
For a saving grace, we didn?t see our dead,
Who rarely bothered coming home to die
But simply stayed away out there
In the clean war, the war in the air.

Seldom the ghosts came back bearing their tales
Of hitting the earth, the incompressible sea,
But stayed up there in the relative wind,
Shades fading in the mind,

Who had no graves but only epitaphs
Where never so many spoke for never so few:
Per ardua, said the partisans of Mars,
Per aspera, to the stars.

That was the good war, the war we won
As if there were no death, for goodness? sake,
With the help of the losers we left out there
In the air, in the empty air.
--- On Fri, 3/30/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:


From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets -- Adrienne Rich
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Friday, March 30, 2012, 1:01 PM







?





DAPHNE GOTTLIEB





?


NO POETRY AFTER AUSCHWITZ



said Adorno, but there are still
poems, in a mark of arrogance or hope,
maybe both. 
This is not a poem
it is a rock
through a window? 
it is a smash
and run? 
it is a broken capitalism machine 
150 miles
from Baghdad.
The television is on at the law firm. 
There is no business as usual.
The building is surrounded by fences
and riot cops 
who are fighting the crime
of free speech, free assembly.
Yesterday they dragged a woman by her hair. 
Today, last night, three days ago,
the Anarchists covered their faces
hid Molotov cocktails in the bushes. 
On our way to the protest, my friend tells me,
I am not covering my face.
It seems it?s one of the fundamental freedoms left. 
I have a bandana in my pocket
just in case.
I am trying to find ways 
to stem my own anger,
my body a grenade rolling in the street
teeth clenched, handing out flowers 
stolen from the lobby of a law firm
to the motorists we delay, thanking them
for their patience 
while the U.S. bombs
the fuck out of another country
it has already starved to death. 
I am trying to find reasons not 
to smash things. Last night an American soldier
threw three grenades into commanders? tents. 
They say he acted out of ?resentment?.
I understand resentment
I believe in nonviolence 
I stick my hands in my pockets 
to make sure
I don?t pick up a rock
? 
2. 
one we are the people
Two A Little Bit Louder Now
Three Who Are Going
FOUR TO STOP THIS WAR 
There are protestors in white
armed with saxophones, drums,
dance training 
Show me what democracy looks like?
THIS IS WHAT DEMOCRACY
LOOKS LIKE 
The protesters in white have forgotten 
the difference between protest
and performance, 
the difference between comrades
and audience.
They will make the evening news.
? 
3. 
In New York
ground zero kids tell me
the cop psyop wagon broadcast: 
"The march is now over.
Please leave the area 
in an orderly fashion." 
New York stood in front of the truck,
got a bullhorn 
and started shouting 
"THE WAR IS NOW OVER. 
PLEASE LEAVE IRAQ 
IN AN ORDERLY FASHION" 
In Chicago,
they are dancing in the streets
to block traffic. 
This resistance
will not be joyless.
Outside the Federal Building, 
a mobile generator
on a bike-drawn cart, 
huge speakers 
blare NOT IN MY NAME
a marching band plays ?War Pigs?
the DJ?s fist is in the air 
a Dixieland band plays
?Down by the Riverside?
and we dance in the street
? 
4. 
Yes, remember
Rachel Corrie
killed by a bulldozer 
but she put her own body
on the line
using her own privilege, 
her own choice. How many
have died with nothing
but their geography to blame? 
How many names will we never
hear because they
had brown skin, not white? 
Because of lines they
never drew and could not
get outside of? Because 
they
are not
?ours??
? 
5. 
Whose streets?
OUR STREETS.
Whose streets?
? 
6. 
The rich restaurateur who is 
a San Francisco Supervisor
says, ?We will prosecute 
protestors to the fullest
extent of the law.? Write 
the legal aid phone number
on your forearm. Listen
for the order to disperse. 
Go limp.
Do not fight the cops.
Watch your back.
? 
7. 
It is terrifying how quickly
?Free Palestine?
becomes 
?End the Occupation?
becomes
?Kill the Jews?
? 
8. 
At work, the secretaries
are watching with shock and awe.
I want to know 
if there?s a body count.
12, they tell me.
Iraqis? Really? 
Oh no, they say, sipping coffee,
eating salads, fries. 
That?s Americans. 
That?s the only number
we?ve heard.
That?s the only number.
? 
9. 
Whose streets?
OUR STREETS!
Whose streets? 
Thursday, we shut down the Federal Building.
We shut down Bechtel. We blitzed Halliburton.
We shut down the Bay Bridge. 
I say ?we? because I watched it on TV.
I say ?we? because I was there.
I say ?we? as I write this in sunny San Francisco 
on a fully loaded computer
smoking multinational corporate cigarettes,
before I eat breakfast, 
after I?ve slept adequately
in a warm house
full of love.
I am waiting for
text messages from the antiwar bloc
to show up on my cell phone.
? 
10. 
Lighting candles, signing petitions
blocking intersections, chanting,
walking until my feet are blistered 
shouting until my throat is raw
I?m trying so hard to change things
but I can?t even get the blood off my hands.
?

--- On Fri, 3/30/12, Halvard Johnson <halvard at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Halvard Johnson <halvard at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets -- Adrienne Rich
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Friday, March 30, 2012, 12:57 PM


With the possible exception of Daniel Berrigan.



?? ?



Serving the tri-state area.


Hal
Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com


On Barcelona (submissions sought; email to my address above)
Truck:?https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/



Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan;?Transparencies & Projections






On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 9:52 AM, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:






I was struck by her prose as well.
Rich may have been the most politically committed (American) poet of the 20th century.
?
Her bio says a lot.
She was nurtured young, had the skill, and scored early (Yale Young Poets). 

--- On Thu, 3/29/12, carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com> wrote:


From: carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets -- Adrienne Rich
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Thursday, March 29, 2012, 7:47 PM



?

That "Women and Honor" pamphlet was amazing -- I wonder how it would read now. I also was very taken with "On Lies, Secrets, and Silence," and "Of Woman Born." 

Norton published a lovely pocket-sized edition of her essay, "Poetry and Commitment," which was from a 2006 speech.

"For now, poetry has the capacity -- in its own ways and by its own means -- to remind us of something we are forbidden to see. A forgotten future: a still-uncreated site whose moral architecture is founded not on ownership and dispossession, the subjection of women, torture and bribes, outcast and tribe, but on the continuous redefining of freedom, -- that word now held under house arrest by the rhetoric of the "free" market. This ongoing future, written off over and over, is still within view. All over the world its paths are being rediscovered and reinvented: through collective action, through many kinds of art. Its elementary condition is the recovery and redistribution of the world's resources that have been extracted from the many by the few." 
???????? Adrienne Rich, from Poetry and Commitment, 2006

May her memory be for a blessing,
Carol


On Thu, Mar 29, 2012 at 8:55 AM, Jerry McGuire <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu> wrote:


I first encountered Rich (whom I oddly never had a chance to hear read) through her early formal verse, which I thought was smart and elegant--maybe overly so; and then, later, through _Diving into the Wreck_ and her pamphlet (later reprinted) "Women and Honor: Some Notes on Lying." The first of those grabbed me like a kind of emotional primer, and the latter shook me out of my shoes, and out of much else besides. It's very saddening to hear that she's gone.

Jerry

? 




On 3/29/2012 10:39 AM, amy king wrote: 





Over on the Women's Poetry listserv, I've found that it's heartening to hear accounts of first encounters with Rich through her work. ?My own came as an undergrad when my then-teacher, Elaine Hedges, took us diving into the wreck ... Hedges, who recovered and wrote the afterword to "The Yellow Wallpaper," also brought Rich to read in Baltimore, a place she was fond of, in a church near the sadly now-defunct 31st Street Feminist Bookstore, which also sponsored her powerful reading. ?I was too shy to do more than hover nearby at the end, but certainly that reading compounded what I sensed of her power and dedication to poetry, politics, and people. ?








So much of what is gone now also points forward to what is going, what is under fire via "austerity" cuts via economic downturns via a decline in income via the anti-intellectual strains ripping through headlines via the lazy need for convenience, etc. ?Bookstores are ridding themselves of poetry aisles that aren't so lucrative, we're buying more and more online instead of from places like Unnameable Books, and we hear very little about just what poets like Rich contributed to a social and political consciousness. ? Poets seem to be no threat at all anymore; their departures are barely noted. ?


I hope she meant something to a few on this list!


Best,


Amy


p.s. ?Coincidentally, I spoke about her here recently:?
No Place for the Little Lyric --?Should Adrienne Rich be the poet laureate of the Occupy movement?


-?http://www.poetryfoundation.org/features/audioitem/3188










_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-- 
________________________________________________________

Jerry McGuire
English Department    Box 44691
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70504-4691
337-482-5478
Creative Writing Website:
http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html
______________________________________________________


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




-- 
Carol Dorf
talkingwriting.com



-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Mar 30 14:09:59 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 14:09:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets -- Adrienne Rich
In-Reply-To: <1333128933.66791.YahooMailClassic@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1333128933.66791.YahooMailClassic@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <73C0CEFFC5E748FDB9C371F2C27F39D1@BobHP>

I suddenly see why poets specializing in the haiku are ignored by the philistines in charge of grants.

--Bob
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Mar 30 14:14:35 2012
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 14:14:35 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets -- Adrienne Rich
Message-ID: <c271b.42b1854f.3ca7520b@cs.com>

In a message dated 3/30/2012 1:10:53 PM Central Daylight Time, 
bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 
> 
> I suddenly see why poets specializing in the haiku are ignored by the 
> philistines in charge of grants.
>   
>  --Bob
> 
> 
> 
They should get little grants.  That seems fair.

RSG
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From halvard at gmail.com  Fri Mar 30 14:35:52 2012
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 12:35:52 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets -- Adrienne Rich
In-Reply-To: <c271b.42b1854f.3ca7520b@cs.com>
References: <c271b.42b1854f.3ca7520b@cs.com>
Message-ID: <CANrCfqEWFX86+bPZ5SSznXPYUUf1CouhCOXAK=WQFyergBfP8w@mail.gmail.com>

Five cents one year, seven cents the next.


Serving the tri-state area.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com

On Barcelona <http://onbarcelona.blogspot.com/> (submissions sought; email
to my address above)
Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
Remains To Be Seen <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>*, Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. II) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>,** Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. III) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Sonnets
from the Basque & Other Poems <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>
*, *Mainly Black <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Obras
P?blicas <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **The Perfection
of Mozart's Third Eye and Other
Sonnets<http://www.scribd.com/doc/27039868/Halvard-Johnson-THE-PERFECTION-OF-MOZART-S-THIRD-EYE-Other-Sonnets>
; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of
Clones<http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Entrance-Clones-Halvard-Johnson/dp/0965404390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283182804&sr=8-1>
; **Tango Bouquet <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **Theory
of Harmony<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall04/theory1.pdf>
; **Rapsodie espagnole<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/rapsodi.pdf>
; **Guide to the Tokyo
Subway<http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Tokyo-Subway-Other-Poems/dp/0971487316/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283183153&sr=1-3>
; **The Sonnet Project<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/hsonnet.pdf>
; **G(e)nome <http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall03/genome.pdf>; **Winter
Journey <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.winter.html>;
**Eclipse<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.eclipse.html>
; **The Dance of the Red Swan <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.dance.html>
; **Transparencies & Projections<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.transp.html>
*




On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 12:14 PM, <Rsgwynn1 at cs.com> wrote:

> In a message dated 3/30/2012 1:10:53 PM Central Daylight Time,
> bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes:
>
>
> I suddenly see why poets specializing in the haiku are ignored by the
> philistines in charge of grants.
>
> --Bob
>
>
>
> They should get *little* grants.  That seems fair.
>
> RSG
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Mar 30 14:40:57 2012
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 14:40:57 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Carruth on Rich
Message-ID: <afcf.5917a5d4.3ca75839@cs.com>

As I recall, Donald Hall once wrote about a double date he went on while at 
Harvard.  Three of the four participants were Hall, Rich, and Robert Bly.  
I forget the fourth.
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From junction at earthlink.net  Fri Mar 30 14:34:02 2012
From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 14:34:02 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Subject: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets -- Adrienne Rich
Message-ID: <2877720.1333132442703.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Mar 30 15:07:20 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 15:07:20 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets -- Adrienne Rich
In-Reply-To: <c271b.42b1854f.3ca7520b@cs.com>
References: <c271b.42b1854f.3ca7520b@cs.com>
Message-ID: <0F12D400DBEE42FBAD63597BF287075F@BobHP>



From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 2:14 PM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets -- Adrienne Rich

In a message dated 3/30/2012 1:10:53 PM Central Daylight Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: 


  I suddenly see why poets specializing in the haiku are ignored by the philistines in charge of grants.
    
  --Bob




They should get little grants.  That seems fair.

RSG 
Yes?but for each haiku. 

--Bob
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Mar 30 15:13:10 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 15:13:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets -- Adrienne Rich
In-Reply-To: <2877720.1333132442703.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <2877720.1333132442703.JavaMail.root@elwamui-royal.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <99C28C55228446998BC86CA14D76BB80@BobHP>



From: junction at earthlink.net 
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 2:34 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] No One Misses the Poets -- Adrienne Rich

Allen Ginsberg Carl Sandburg 

It's a very long list.
The meaningful question is what poets could be consider primarily political poets.  Which requires a definition of ?political.?  Cummings may have been primarily a political poet.  Certainly he was a propagandist for individualism versus collectivism.  I agree more with his many political poems than I do with those of most other poets I know, but wish he hadn?t written them.  Giving people verbal pleasure seems to me a vastly higher goal than preaching.
--Bob
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Mar 30 15:14:40 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2012 15:14:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Carruth on Rich
In-Reply-To: <afcf.5917a5d4.3ca75839@cs.com>
References: <afcf.5917a5d4.3ca75839@cs.com>
Message-ID: <57F423150A3A48B0BD7D91D9BA2EE048@BobHP>



From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com 
Sent: Friday, March 30, 2012 2:40 PM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Carruth on Rich

As I recall, Donald Hall once wrote about a double date he went on while at Harvard.  Three of the four participants were Hall, Rich, and Robert Bly.  I forget the fourth.
Was it another poet?
--Bob
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sat Mar 31 04:02:30 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 10:02:30 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] R.I.P. Adrienne Rich
In-Reply-To: <8CEDC1B9225706C-300-14EF@webmail-m071.sysops.aol.com>
References: <CB98F09E.7DB3%GrahamD@ripon.edu>
	<CA+9UsyQ4Uvdm8AoozHL+Yu+GFuQYUkw-vxgE_fOWDUUuTMM7dA@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CEDC1B9225706C-300-14EF@webmail-m071.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyT4i1zgoHkf5oKz91W7yPOEzK7E9pThUgS6gtMaSMc2fA@mail.gmail.com>

This is a great poem. Thank you.

On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 1:34 AM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:

> Tattered Kaddish****
>  ****
>  ****
> Taurean reaper of the wild apple field ****
> messenger from earthmire gleaning ****
> transcripts of fog ****
> in the nineteenth year and the eleventh month ****
> speak your tattered Kaddish for all suicides:****
>  ****
> Praise to life though it crumbled in like a tunnel ****
> on ones we knew and loved****
>  ****
> Praise to life though its windows blew shut ****
> on the breathing-room of ones we knew and loved****
>  ****
> Praise to life though ones we knew and loved ****
> loved it badly, too well, and not enough****
>  ****
> Praise to life though it tightened like a knot ****
> on the hearts of ones we thought we knew loved us****
>  ****
> Praise to life giving room and reason ****
> to ones we knew and loved who felt unpraisable****
>  ****
> Praise to them, how they loved it, when they could.****
>  ****
> 1989****
> ** **
>  ****
> --Adrienne Rich.  An Atlas of The Difficult World.  1991.****
>
>  Jim Finnegan
> 860-508-2810
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thu, Mar 29, 2012 3:03 pm
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] R.I.P. Adrienne Rich
>
>  My father at 85 was young, thus Adrienne even younger.
> Death reaps us.
>
> On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 11:45 PM, David Graham <GrahamD at ripon.edu> wrote:
>
>>  Sad news:
>>
>> http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/jacketcopy/2012/03/adrienne-rich.html
>>
>>
>> Tattered Kaddish
>>
>>
>> Taurean reaper of the wild apple field
>> messenger from earthmire gleaning
>> transcripts of fog
>> in the nineteenth year and the eleventh month
>> speak your tattered Kaddish for all suicides:
>>
>> Praise to life though it crumbled in like a tunnel
>> on ones we knew and loved
>>
>> Praise to life though its windows blew shut
>> on the breathing-room of ones we knew and loved
>>
>> Praise to life though ones we knew and loved
>> loved it badly, too well, and not enough
>>
>> Praise to life though it tightened like a knot
>> on the hearts of ones we thought we knew loved us
>>
>> Praise to life giving room and reason
>> to ones we knew and loved who felt unpraisable
>>
>> Praise to them, how they loved it, when they could.
>>
>> 1989
>>
>> --Adrienne Rich.  An Atlas of The Difficult World.  1991.
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> ========================================
>> David Graham
>> grahamd at ripon.edu
>>
>> Home Page:
>> http://web.me.com/drjazz
>>
>> Poetry Library:
>> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
>> ==========================================
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
>  _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From halvard at gmail.com  Sat Mar 31 15:28:45 2012
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 13:28:45 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] New driver for Truck during April
Message-ID: <CANrCfqHrSrWqztM2k=Esvas9kFoyVeNmozdV=OQc-2shQk1ucQ@mail.gmail.com>

Many thanks to Jukka-Pekka Kervinen for taking the wheel during March, and
a big welcome to Lynda Schor, who'll be at the wheel during April.
Truck <http://halvard-johnson.blogspot.mx/>


Serving the tri-state area.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com

On Barcelona <http://onbarcelona.blogspot.com/> (submissions sought; email
to my address above)
Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
Remains To Be Seen <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>*, Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. II) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>,** Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. III) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Sonnets
from the Basque & Other Poems <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>
*, *Mainly Black <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Obras
P?blicas <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **The Perfection
of Mozart's Third Eye and Other
Sonnets<http://www.scribd.com/doc/27039868/Halvard-Johnson-THE-PERFECTION-OF-MOZART-S-THIRD-EYE-Other-Sonnets>
; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of
Clones<http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Entrance-Clones-Halvard-Johnson/dp/0965404390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283182804&sr=8-1>
; **Tango Bouquet <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **Theory
of Harmony<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall04/theory1.pdf>
; **Rapsodie espagnole<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/rapsodi.pdf>
; **Guide to the Tokyo
Subway<http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Tokyo-Subway-Other-Poems/dp/0971487316/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283183153&sr=1-3>
; **The Sonnet Project<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/hsonnet.pdf>
; **G(e)nome <http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall03/genome.pdf>; **Winter
Journey <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.winter.html>;
**Eclipse<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.eclipse.html>
; **The Dance of the Red Swan <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.dance.html>
; **Transparencies & Projections<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.transp.html>
*
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From tomasocarthaigh at yahoo.com  Sat Mar 31 21:22:29 2012
From: tomasocarthaigh at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Tom=E1s_=D3_C=E1rthaigh?=)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 18:22:29 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Issue IX - Cartys Poetry Journal
Message-ID: <1333243349.3867.YahooMailClassic@web161602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

 http://www.cartyspoetryjournal.com/
 - Latest issue of Cartys Poetry Journal is now out, featuring 70 pages 
ofsome of the best rhyming, free verse and haiku, interspersed with 
excellent photography, art and drawing.
 
 http://www.cartyspoetryjournal.com/Issue_09/CPJ-IX.pdf
ssue IX IS OUT NOW
    We have the fantastic problem of too many submissions, and the current issue is now busting the 50 page mark - and that is with material being held forward for Issue X.
    We thank our readers and submitters for bearing with us while we 
got this issue together, held up by a combination of late submissions, a
 family berevement (another!!!), and work, tempered with a little bit of
 lazyness on my part!!!
    Tom?s ? C?rthaigh, Editor

      Carty's Poetry Journal
    
Of course, you can read the old issues here!!!
"a person with a good book is never alone... a writer until they've written one is never at peace" - www.writingsinrhyme.com??::: Add me on Facebook ::: My YouTube Videos?
?
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From jforjames at aol.com  Sat Mar 31 21:32:01 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 21:32:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] R.I.P. Adrienne Rich
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsyT4i1zgoHkf5oKz91W7yPOEzK7E9pThUgS6gtMaSMc2fA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CB98F09E.7DB3%GrahamD@ripon.edu><CA+9UsyQ4Uvdm8AoozHL+Yu+GFuQYUkw-vxgE_fOWDUUuTMM7dA@mail.gmail.com><8CEDC1B9225706C-300-14EF@webmail-m071.sysops.aol.com>
	<CA+9UsyT4i1zgoHkf5oKz91W7yPOEzK7E9pThUgS6gtMaSMc2fA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CEDDBE5EFDCE11-1F90-C29C@webmail-d046.sysops.aol.com>

In 1956, I had begun dating each of my poems by year. I did this because I was finished with the idea of a poem as a single, encapsulated event, a work of art complete in itself; and I knew my life was changing, my work was changing, and I needed to indicate to readers my sense of being engaged in a long, continuing process. It seems to me now that this was an oblique political statement?a rejection of the dominant critical idea that the poem?s text should be read as separate from the poet?s everyday life in the world. It was a declaration that placed poetry in a historical continuity, not above or outside history.

?Adrienne Rich, title essay of Blood, Bread, and Poetry (Norton, 1986) 



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From jforjames at aol.com  Sat Mar 31 21:34:10 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 31 Mar 2012 21:34:10 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] R.I.P. Adrienne Rich
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsyT4i1zgoHkf5oKz91W7yPOEzK7E9pThUgS6gtMaSMc2fA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CB98F09E.7DB3%GrahamD@ripon.edu><CA+9UsyQ4Uvdm8AoozHL+Yu+GFuQYUkw-vxgE_fOWDUUuTMM7dA@mail.gmail.com><8CEDC1B9225706C-300-14EF@webmail-m071.sysops.aol.com>
	<CA+9UsyT4i1zgoHkf5oKz91W7yPOEzK7E9pThUgS6gtMaSMc2fA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CEDDBEABCC6D29-1F90-C2B3@webmail-d046.sysops.aol.com>

Anny, 
David Graham first posted it. I was trying to copy it and it posted it again.
Finnegan


-----Original Message-----
From: Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sat, Mar 31, 2012 4:02 am
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] R.I.P. Adrienne Rich


This is a great poem. Thank you.


On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 1:34 AM,  <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:


Tattered Kaddish
 
 
Taurean reaper of the wild apple field 
messenger from earthmire gleaning 
transcripts of fog 
in the nineteenth year and the eleventh month 
speak your tattered Kaddish for all suicides:
 
Praise to life though it crumbled in like a tunnel 
on ones we knew and loved
 
Praise to life though its windows blew shut 
on the breathing-room of ones we knew and loved
 
Praise to life though ones we knew and loved 
loved it badly, too well, and not enough
 
Praise to life though it tightened like a knot 
on the hearts of ones we thought we knew loved us
 
Praise to life giving room and reason 
to ones we knew and loved who felt unpraisable
 
Praise to them, how they loved it, when they could.
 
1989
 
 
--Adrienne Rich.  AnAtlas of The Difficult World.  1991.



Jim Finnegan
860-508-2810





-----Original Message-----
From: Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thu, Mar 29, 2012 3:03 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] R.I.P. Adrienne Rich


My father at 85 was young, thus Adrienne even younger.
Death reaps us.


On Wed, Mar 28, 2012 at 11:45 PM, David Graham <GrahamD at ripon.edu> wrote:

Sad news:

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/jacketcopy/2012/03/adrienne-rich.html


Tattered Kaddish


Taurean reaper of the wild apple field 
messenger from earthmire gleaning 
transcripts of fog 
in the nineteenth year and the eleventh month 
speak your tattered Kaddish for all suicides:

Praise to life though it crumbled in like a tunnel 
on ones we knew and loved

Praise to life though its windows blew shut 
on the breathing-room of ones we knew and loved

Praise to life though ones we knew and loved 
loved it badly, too well, and not enough

Praise to life though it tightened like a knot 
on the hearts of ones we thought we knew loved us

Praise to life giving room and reason 
to ones we knew and loved who felt unpraisable

Praise to them, how they loved it, when they could.

1989

--Adrienne Rich.  An Atlas of The Difficult World.  1991.


-- 

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz

Poetry Library:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale


 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

 


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale


 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

 
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From poet_in_hell_files  Thu Mar  1 10:15:44 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files (stephen russell)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 07:15:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry and capitalism
In-Reply-To: <762FE71C9F934B7EB04743AA5E26B4C6@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1330614944.26844.YahooMailClassic@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

the guy was by any standards a victim (unlike todays whiners). His judgements were understandably clouded. Still, there are different strands of socialism that do not fit the mold of 20th century collectivism. Capitalism wins when it come to production. That has to be conceded. Incentives combined with fear plus the concentration of wealth gives capitalism a huge advantage in this regard. Anyone who considers production, or the bottom line, a worthy goal will no doubt be a capitalist. Count me out. 
?
Having said that, Vacel Havel was a proponent of the market economy. But he also say the need for a strong safety net. 

--- On Wed, 2/29/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poetry and capitalism
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Wednesday, February 29, 2012, 6:02 PM






?


?

From: John Jeffrey 
Sent: Wednesday, February 29, 2012 10:28 AM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poetry and capitalism
?


"'Socialism itself will be of value simply because it will lead to individualism' since individuals will no longer need to fear poverty or starvation."
?
He couldn't have been more wrong about that.
?
Right: socialism requires the surrender of one?s individuality in return for security from poverty and starvation?which, ironically, it can?t provide without the help of capitalism.? I agree with so much of what Wilde wrote, I find his lack of perceptiveness on this strange.
?
--Bob
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


_______________________________________________
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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From poet_in_hell_files  Thu Mar  1 10:31:37 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files (stephen russell)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 07:31:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Battle of the sexes in leading magazines
In-Reply-To: <CAAy7y5RaMrp6Aazm-EiDB701W2xpOfWSPnVwvFL4+GVxJRX4pQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1330615897.64466.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

yes. something is better than nothing.
?
what people don't understand about nothing is that it is not Some kind of thing.
Nothing is
?
the absence of Anything. 
?
No space.
Time.
?
No ... thing. 

--- On Wed, 2/29/12, Tad Richards <theoldmole at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Tad Richards <theoldmole at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Battle of the sexes in leading magazines
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Wednesday, February 29, 2012, 7:16 PM


Well, it's closer to the actual ratio.Not to say that you're not an obsessive, narcissistic, bullying agitator,


On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 5:53 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:






Non-Wilshberians or the equivalent . . . zero; Wilshberians or the equivalent . . . ten thousand; yet, if I complain that the ratio should be at least something to ten thousand, I?m an obsessive, narcissistic, bullying agitator.? 

?

--Bob

?

?
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


_______________________________________________
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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From poet_in_hell_files  Thu Mar  1 11:19:09 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files (stephen russell)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 08:19:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] happy birthday Jack
Message-ID: <1330618749.30663.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>











It's Kerouac's birthday.
?
http://www.kerouac.com/kerouac-90th-birthday/

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From jforjames  Thu Mar  1 13:05:22 2012
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 13:05:22 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] woodbury poetry (harvard) listening booth
Message-ID: <8CEC5ED017D5484-F5C-1245C@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com>


Looks like the Woodbury Poetry Room has expanded its website offerings...
http://hcl.harvard.edu/poetryroom/listeningbooth/index.cfm



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From anny.ballardini  Thu Mar  1 14:21:40 2012
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 20:21:40 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Battle of the sexes in leading magazines
In-Reply-To: <CACHqp-6ooCncPPOo3zrsxjUV6jgA_3b+k2RDci3ozNhOvTYokA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CAAy7y5TH7gByfiTE38Evf5Z3KbnxWLoqpnrUhHEQpmzHuMN=Og@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACHqp-6ooCncPPOo3zrsxjUV6jgA_3b+k2RDci3ozNhOvTYokA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyRabysv=7ZTR1mNgPkgBmdmX8fio987J49q_rd3=xRfpQ@mail.gmail.com>

this is a good one....

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 9:41 PM, Paul Howell <htthinc at gmail.com> wrote:

> Shows that one woman is as good as ten or twenty men.
>
> On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 2:07 PM, Tad Richards <theoldmole at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> http://www.vidaweb.org/the-2011-count
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini  Thu Mar  1 14:21:59 2012
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 1 Mar 2012 20:21:59 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Battle of the sexes in leading magazines
In-Reply-To: <8CEC545E55C4C93-CFC-C692@Webmail-m117.sysops.aol.com>
References: <CAAy7y5TH7gByfiTE38Evf5Z3KbnxWLoqpnrUhHEQpmzHuMN=Og@mail.gmail.com>
	<CACHqp-6ooCncPPOo3zrsxjUV6jgA_3b+k2RDci3ozNhOvTYokA@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CEC545E55C4C93-CFC-C692@Webmail-m117.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyQ4fGk0HVcaoVANKf7UvO0ErO6os7Yz1jEbHYUDtO1dBw@mail.gmail.com>

and this one even better, ....

On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 11:09 PM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:

> Or that women can say more with fewer words.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Paul Howell <htthinc at gmail.com>
> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Wed, Feb 29, 2012 3:42 pm
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Battle of the sexes in leading magazines
>
>  Shows that one woman is as good as ten or twenty men.
>
> On Wed, Feb 29, 2012 at 2:07 PM, Tad Richards <theoldmole at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> http://www.vidaweb.org/the-2011-count
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>  _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini  Fri Mar  2 06:58:10 2012
From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 12:58:10 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Dixie Primer,
	for the Little Folks: Electronic Edition.
Message-ID: <CA+9UsySSW4NSyAtD+aGs2ZZZJBZCUgdJ_+=nwi1Nw18_neZ=+w@mail.gmail.com>

http://docsouth.unc.edu/imls/moore/moore.html
The Dixie Primer, for the Little Folks:
Electronic Edition.
MARY'S LITTLE LAMB.


                         Mary had a little lamb,
                         Its fleece was white as snow;
                         And every where that Mary went
                         The lamb was sure to go.


                         He followed her to school one day,
                         Which was against the rule--
                         It made the children laugh and play
                         To see a lamb at school.
------------------------------
Page 30


                         So the teacher turned him out,
                         But still he lingered near;
                         And waited patiently about,
                         Till Mary did appear.


                         And then he ran to her and laid
                         His head upon her arm,
                         As if he said, I'm not afraid,
                         You'll keep me from all harm.

-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From editor  Fri Mar  2 11:12:03 2012
From: editor (=?iso-8859-1?Q?=22e=B7ratio=22?=)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 11:12:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?a_noun_sing_e=B7ratio_15_=B7_2012?=
Message-ID: <a7a58144ba10be283c36a3160972b09a.squirrel@webmail4.web.com>

e?

a noun sing e?ratio 15 ? 2012

http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com/

with poetry by

Morgan Harlow, Candy Shue, Jan Lauwereyns, Doris Neidl, Tim Trace
Peterson, Jen Besemer, Sheila Squillante, Lisa McCool-Grime, Natalie
Watson, Julie Wood, Kristina Marie Darling, Felicia Shenker, Scott
Bentley, J. Crouse, Bob Heman, James Davies, Dylan Harris, Michael
Sikkema, Kent Leatham, Parker Tettleton, Bobbi Lurie, Lauren Marie
Cappello, Erin Heath, Wynne Huddleston, Jane Olivier, Elise, Nathan
Thompson, Tim Wright, Tim VanDyke, Iain Britton, Ian Hatcher, C. Brannon
Watts, Seth Tyler Copeland, Rich Murphy, J. D. Nelson, Howie Good, Monty
Reid, Dave Shortt, Billy Cancel, John Clinton, Thomas Fink, Larry Ziman,
Valery Oisteanu, Michael Crane, Jon Cone, Mark Cunningham, Rick Marlatt,
Nikolai Duffy, Alessandro Cusimano, Jacob Russell, Corey Wakeling, Stephen
Nelson, Steve Gilmartin, James Valvis, Greg Cohen, Derek Henderson, Travis
Cebula, Sean Howard, Walter Ruhlmann and M?rton Kopp?ny

and featuring

The Mallarm? Project, an examination of a yearlong series of art and
writing in Seattle by Joseph F. Keppler

and

The Susan Bee Interview


E?ratio is edited by Gregory Vincent St. Thomasino with contributing
editors Joseph F. Keppler and Lauren Marie Cappello

http://www.eratiopostmodernpoetry.com

E?ratio is reading for issue 16, the fall 2012 issue.



e?




From jlm8047  Fri Mar  2 16:53:37 2012
From: jlm8047 (Jerry McGuire)
Date: Fri, 02 Mar 2012 15:53:37 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] mother-child poems
In-Reply-To: <8CEC5ED017D5484-F5C-1245C@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CEC5ED017D5484-F5C-1245C@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <4F514161.2080003@louisiana.edu>

I'm involved with a very interesting project--at least, from where I 
stand--and thought I'd solicit a little advice. I'm looking for 
recommendations of (1) any really good poems that express or address 
relations (specifically, _good_ relations, I'd guess) between mothers 
and children; and then (2) more particularly, poems treating mothers and 
children that might be directly accessible _for_ children--that is, that 
might be understood by kids and, perhaps, read aloud by them.

Right now I'm thinking of Lisel Mueller's "Reading the Brothers Grimm to 
Jenny"; and also, maybe, some nursery rhymes. If anyone out there has a 
favorite poem on this theme, I'd appreciate hearing about it.

All best,

Jerry

On 3/1/2012 12:05 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote:
> Looks like the Woodbury Poetry Room has expanded its website offerings...
> http://hcl.harvard.edu/poetryroom/listeningbooth/index.cfm
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506
jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
337-482-5478

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From Rsgwynn1  Fri Mar  2 17:40:02 2012
From: Rsgwynn1 (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 17:40:02 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] mother-child poems
Message-ID: <1681b.36c25b87.3c82a642@cs.com>

Rachel Hadas, The Red Hat
Rita Dove, After Reading Mickey in the Night Kitchen
Several by Sharon olds
Plath's Morning Song
Miller Williams, The Caterpillar
 
These are just a few that come readily to mind.  I'm sure you'll get 
hundreds of others.
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From carol.dorf  Fri Mar  2 18:56:57 2012
From: carol.dorf (carol dorf)
Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2012 15:56:57 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] mother-child poems
In-Reply-To: <4F514161.2080003@louisiana.edu>
References: <8CEC5ED017D5484-F5C-1245C@webmail-m086.sysops.aol.com>
	<4F514161.2080003@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <CABVBwJBKvcdo-SZJ36GqUYPJfmwN_3eEa1kY5PuUfPq-fe6eLg@mail.gmail.com>

Here's a group I put together for Talking Writing a year or two ago --
To see the whole poem you need to click on the links.

http://talkingwriting.com/?p=1251
I think the Fanny Howe, or the Linda Pastan ones might be accessible to
children -- at least from about 4th grade and up.

Best,
Carol

On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:53 PM, Jerry McGuire <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu> wrote:

>  I'm involved with a very interesting project--at least, from where I
> stand--and thought I'd solicit a little advice. I'm looking for
> recommendations of (1) any really good poems that express or addressrelations (specifically, _good_ relations, I'd guess) between mothers and
> children; and then (2) more particularly, poems treating mothers and
> children that might be directly accessible _for_ children--that is, that
> might be understood by kids and, perhaps, read aloud by them.
>
> Right now I'm thinking of Lisel Mueller's "Reading the Brothers Grimm to
> Jenny"; and also, maybe, some nursery rhymes. If anyone out there has a
> favorite poem on this theme, I'd appreciate hearing about it.
>
> All best,
>
> Jerry
>
> On 3/1/2012 12:05 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote:
>
> Looks like the Woodbury Poetry Room has expanded its website offerings...
> http://hcl.harvard.edu/poetryroom/listeningbooth/index.cfm
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> --
> Jerry McGuire
> Dept. of English
> University of Louisiana at Lafayette
> Lafayette LA 70506jlm8047 at louisiana.edu337-482-5478
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Carol Dorf
talkingwriting.com
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From poet_in_hell_files  Sat Mar  3 15:07:11 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files (stephen russell)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 12:07:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] mother-child poems
Message-ID: <1330805231.48831.YahooMailClassic@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

If my library were handy I know that I find plenty of Mother/child (accessible) poems from Rita Dove. 

--- On Fri, 3/2/12, carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com> wrote:

From: carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] mother-child poems
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Friday, March 2, 2012, 6:56 PM

Here's a group I put together for Talking Writing a year or two ago -- 
To see the whole poem you need to click on the links.

http://talkingwriting.com/?p=1251

I think the Fanny Howe, or the Linda Pastan ones might be accessible to children -- at least from about 4th grade and up.

Best,
Carol

On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:53 PM, Jerry McGuire <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu> wrote:


  
    
  
  
    I'm involved with a very interesting
      project--at least, from where I stand--and thought I'd solicit a
      little advice. I'm looking for recommendations of (1) any really
      good poems that express or address relations (specifically,
    _good_ relations, I'd guess) between mothers and children; and then
    (2) more particularly, poems treating mothers and children that
    might be directly accessible _for_ children--that is, that might be
    understood by kids and, perhaps, read aloud by them. 

    

    Right now I'm thinking of Lisel Mueller's "Reading the Brothers
    Grimm to Jenny"; and also, maybe, some nursery rhymes. If anyone out
    there has a favorite poem on this theme, I'd appreciate hearing
    about it.

    

    All best,

    

    Jerry

    

    On 3/1/2012 12:05 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote:
    
        Looks like the Woodbury Poetry Room has expanded its
          website offerings...
        http://hcl.harvard.edu/poetryroom/listeningbooth/index.cfm

          

        
        ?
      
      

      
      

      _______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

    
    

    -- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506
jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
337-482-5478

  


_______________________________________________

New-Poetry mailing list

New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu

http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





-- 
Carol Dorf
talkingwriting.com




-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From poet_in_hell_files  Sat Mar  3 15:23:15 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files (stephen russell)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 12:23:15 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
Message-ID: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>


One of Donald Hall's best --

"And every year, Ronald McDonald takes the Pulitzer."

The United States invented mass quick-consumption and we are very 
good at it. We are not famous for making Ferraris and Rolls Royces; we 
are famous for the people's car, the Model T, the Model 
A-"transportation," as we call it: the particular abstracted into the 
utilitarian generality and two in every garage. Quality is all very well
 but it is not democratic; if we insist on hand-building Rolls Royces 
most of us will walk to work. Democracy demands the interchangeable part
 and the worker on the production line; Thomas Jefferson may have had 
other notions but de Tocqueville was our prophet. Or take American 
cuisine: it has never added a sauce to the world's palate, but our 
fast-food industry overruns the planet.

Thus: our poems, in their
 charming and interchangeable quantity, do not presume to the status of 
"Lycidas"-for that would be elitist and un-American. We write and 
publish the McPoem-ten billion served-which becomes our contribution to 
the history of literature as the Model T is our contribution to a 
history which runs from bare feet past elephant and rickshaw to the 
vehicles of space. Pull in any time day or night, park by the busload, 
and the McPoem waits on the steam shelf for us, wrapped and protected, 
indistinguishable, undistinguished, and reliable-the good old McPoem 
identical from coast to coast and in all the little towns between, 
subject to the quality control of the least common denominator.

And every year, Ronald McDonald takes the Pulitzer.

To
 produce the McPoem, institutions must enforce patterns, institutions 
within institutions; all subject to the same glorious dominance of 
unconscious economic determinism, template and formula of consumerism.

The McPoem is the product of the workshops of Hamburger University.

Poems have become as instant as coffee or onion soup mix.

Anyone
 editing a magazine receives poems dated the day of the postmark. When a
 poet types and submits a poem just composed (or even shows it to spouse
 or friend) the poet cuts off from the poem the possibility of growth 
and change; I suspect that the poet wishes to forestall the 
possibilities of growth and change, though of course without 
acknowledging the wish.

If Robert Lowell, John Berryman and 
Robert Penn Warren publish without allowing for revision or 
self-criticism, how can we expect a twenty-four-year-old in Manhattan to
 wait five years-or eighteen months? With these famous men as models, 
how should we blame the young poet who boasts in a brochure of over four
 hundred poems published in the last five years? Or the publisher, 
advertising a book, who brags that his poet has published twelve books 
in ten years? Or the workshop teacher who meets a colleague on a 
crosswalk and buffs the backs of his fingernails against his tweed as he
 proclaims that, over the last two years, he has averaged "placing" two 
poems a week?

The workshop schools us to produce the McPoem, 
which is "a mold in plaster, / Made with no loss of time," with no waste
 of effort, with no strenuous questioning as to merit. If we attend a 
workshop we must bring something to class or we do not contribute. What 
kind of workshop could Horace have contributed to, if he kept his poems 
to himself for ten years? No, we will not admit Horace and Pope to our 
workshops, for they will just sit there, holding back their own work, 
claiming it is not ready, acting superior, a bunch of elitists...

The
 poetry workshop resembles a garage to which we bring incomplete or 
malfunctioning homemade machines for diagnosis and repair. Here is the 
homemade airplane for which the crazed inventor forgot to provide wings;
 here is the internal combustion engine all finished except that it 
lacks a carburetor; here is the rowboat without oarlocks, the ladder 
without rungs, the motorcycle without wheels. We advance our 
nonfunctional machine into a circle of other apprentice inventors and 
one or two senior Edisons. "Very good," they say; "it almost flies.... 
How about, uh... how about l.,m wings?" Or, "Let me just show you how to
 build a carburetor...."

Whatever we bring to this place, we 
bring it too soon. The weekly meetings of the workshop serve the haste 
of our culture. When we bring a new poem to the workshop, anxious for 
praise, others' voices enter the poem's metabolism before it is mature, 
distorting its possible growth and change. "It's only when you get far 
enough away from your work to begin to be critical of it 
yourself"-Robert Frost said-"that anyone else's criticism can be 
tolerable " Bring to class only, he said, "old and cold things " Nothing
 is old and cold until it has gone through months of drafts. Therefore 
workshopping is intrinsically impossible.

It is from workshops 
that American poets learn to enjoy the embarrassment of publication?too 
soon, too soon?because making public is a condition of workshopping. 
This publication exposes oneself to one's fellow-poets only?a condition 
of which poets are perpetually accused and frequently guilty. We learn 
to write poems that will please not the Muse but our contemporaries, 
thus poems that resemble our contemporaries ' poems-thus the recipe for 
the McPoem... If we learn one thing else, we learn to publish 
promiscuously; these premature ejaculations count on number and 
frequency to counterbalance ineptitude.

Most poets need the 
conversation of other poets. They do not need mentors; they need 
friends, critics, people to argue with. It is no accident that 
Wordsworth, Coleridge, and Southey were friends when they were young; if
 Pound, H.D., and William Carlos Williams had not known each other when 
young, would they have become William Carlos Williams, H.D., and Pound? 
There have been some lone wolves but not many. The history of poetry is a
 history of friend ships and rivalries, not only with the dead great 
ones but with the living young. My four years at Harvard overlapped with
 the undergraduates Frank O'Hara, Adrienne Rich, John Ashbery, Robert 
Bly, Peter Davison, L.E. Sissman, and Kenneth Koch. (At the same time 
Galway Kinnell and W. S. Merwin attended Princeton.). I do not assert 
that we resembled a sewing circle, that we often helped each other 
overtly, or even that we liked each other. I do assert that we were 
lucky to have each other around for purposes of conversation.

We were not in workshops: we were merely attending college. Where else in this country would we have met each other?

The
 American problem of geographical isolation is real. Any remote place 
may be the site of poetry?imagined, remembered, or lived in?but for 
almost every poet it is necessary to live in exile before returning 
home?an exile rich in conflict and confirmation. Central New Hampshire 
or the" Olympic Peninsula or Cincinnati or the soybean plains of western
 Minnesota or the lower East Side may shine at the center of our work 
and our lives; but if we never leave these places we are not likely to 
grow up enough to do the work. There is a terrible poignancy in the 
talented artist who fears to leave home?defined as a place first to 
leave and then to return to.

So the workshop answers the need for
 a cafe. But I called it the institutionalized cafe, and it differs from
 the Parisian version by instituting requirements and by hiring and 
paying mentors. Workshop mentors even make assignments: "Write a persona
 poem in the voice of a dead ancestor." "Make a poem containing these 
ten words in this order with as many other words as you wish." "Write a 
poem without adjectives, or without prepositions, or without content" 
These formulas, everyone says, are a whole lot of fun. They also reduce 
poetry to a parlor game; they trivialize and make safe-seeming the real 
terrors of real art. This reduction by-formula is not accidental. We 
play these games in order to reduce poetry to a parlor game. Games serve
 to democratize, to soften, and to standardize; they are repellent. 
Although in theory workshops serve a useful purpose in gathering young 
artists together, workshop practices enforce the McPoem.
    
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From poet_in_hell_files  Sat Mar  3 15:36:10 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files (stephen russell)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 12:36:10 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] mother-child poems
In-Reply-To: <1330805231.48831.YahooMailClassic@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1330806970.69448.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Here's one:
My Mother Enters the Work Force
 

The path to ABC Business School

was paid for by a lucky sign:

Alterations, Qualified Seamstress 

Inquire Within.



Tested on Sleeves, hers 

never puckered -- puffed or sleek,

Leg o' or Raglan -- they barely 

needed the damp cloth 

to steam them perfect.



Those were the afternoons. 

Evenings she took in piecework, 

the treadle machine with its 

locomotive whir traveling the lit path 

of the needle through quicksand 

taffeta or velvet deep as a forest.



And now and now sang the treadle,

I know, I know....



And then it was day again, 

all morning at the office machines, 

their clack and chatter

another journey -- rougher,

that would go on forever

until she could break a hundred words

with no errors -- ah, and then



No more postponed groceries,

and that blue pair of shoes!


Written by Rita Dove


--- On Sat, 3/3/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] mother-child poems
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 3, 2012, 3:07 PM

If my library were handy I know that I find plenty of Mother/child (accessible) poems from Rita Dove. 

--- On Fri, 3/2/12, carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com> wrote:

From: carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] mother-child poems
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Friday, March 2, 2012, 6:56 PM

Here's a group I put together for Talking Writing a year or two ago -- 
To see the whole poem you need to click on the links.

http://talkingwriting.com/?p=1251

I think the Fanny Howe, or the Linda Pastan ones might be accessible to children -- at least from about 4th grade and up.

Best,
Carol

On Fri, Mar 2, 2012 at 1:53 PM, Jerry McGuire <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu> wrote:


  
    
  
  
    I'm involved with a very interesting
      project--at least, from where I stand--and thought I'd solicit a
      little advice. I'm looking for recommendations of (1) any really
      good poems that express or address relations (specifically,
    _good_ relations, I'd guess) between mothers and children; and then
    (2) more particularly, poems treating mothers and children that
    might be directly accessible _for_ children--that is, that might be
    understood by kids and, perhaps, read aloud by them. 

    

    Right now I'm thinking of Lisel Mueller's "Reading the Brothers
    Grimm to Jenny"; and also, maybe, some nursery rhymes. If anyone out
    there has a favorite poem on this theme, I'd appreciate hearing
    about it.

    

    All best,

    

    Jerry

    

    On 3/1/2012 12:05 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote:
    
        Looks like the Woodbury Poetry Room has expanded its
          website offerings...
        http://hcl.harvard.edu/poetryroom/listeningbooth/index.cfm

          

        
        ?
      
      

      
      

      _______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

    
    

    -- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506
jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
337-482-5478

  


_______________________________________________

New-Poetry mailing list

New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu

http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





-- 
Carol Dorf
talkingwriting.com




-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From mykelmarsh  Sat Mar  3 16:09:30 2012
From: mykelmarsh (mykelmarsh at comcast.net)
Date: Sat, 3 Mar 2012 21:09:30 +0000 (UTC)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
In-Reply-To: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1283078373.1794097.1330808970682.JavaMail.root@sz0153a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>

so part of what I'm getting here is that if you went to Harvard you wouldn't produce a Mcpoem. It seems like Robert Penn Warren and the 24 year old might also have poet friends who maybe didn't go to Harvard or Princeton. What makes quality in poetry? Why does Donald Hall consider himself a better poet? Because he revised his poetry and discussed it with friends? Why are the poets he doesn't like presented as comic characters? He seems to be selling his own brand of poetry, the poetry in which Pound was lost, esoteric and unconnected to what is meaningful in most peoples lives, lost in oubliettes of obscurity that may never reach beyond the poets own small circle of very educated friends. There are differences in poetry. Poets have different backgrounds and motivations. By trivializing the work of other poets so generally, he makes himself seem out of touch with anyone but ivy league graduates. There is a lot of quality poetry that comes without over analyzing and much that is gained by revising. It is a balance. Its seems just as plausible to me that revising something for ten years might make it look like an autopsy specimen that had been cut a few too many times. 

----- Original Message -----
From: "stephen russell" <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> 
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 12:23:15 PM 
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served 



One of Donald Hall's best -- 
" And every year, Ronald McDonald takes the Pulitzer ." 

The United States invented mass quick-consumption and we are very good at it. We are not famous for making Ferraris and Rolls Royces; we are famous for the people's car, the Model T, the Model A-"transportation," as we call it: the particular abstracted into the utilitarian generality and two in every garage. Quality is all very well but it is not democratic; if we insist on hand-building Rolls Royces most of us will walk to work. Democracy demands the interchangeable part and the worker on the production line; Thomas Jefferson may have had other notions but de Tocqueville was our prophet. Or take American cuisine: it has never added a sauce to the world's palate, but our fast-food industry overruns the planet. 

Thus: our poems, in their charming and interchangeable quantity, do not presume to the status of "Lycidas"-for that would be elitist and un-American. We write and publish the McPoem-ten billion served-which becomes our contribution to the history of literature as the Model T is our contribution to a history which runs from bare feet past elephant and rickshaw to the vehicles of space. Pull in any time day or night, park by the busload, and the McPoem waits on the steam shelf for us, wrapped and protected, indistinguishable, undistinguished, and reliable-the good old McPoem identical from coast to coast and in all the little towns between, subject to the quality control of the least common denominator. 

And every year, Ronald McDonald takes the Pulitzer. 

To produce the McPoem, institutions must enforce patterns, institutions within institutions; all subject to the same glorious dominance of unconscious economic determinism, template and formula of consumerism. 

The McPoem is the product of the workshops of Hamburger University. 

Poems have become as instant as coffee or onion soup mix. 

Anyone editing a magazine receives poems dated the day of the postmark. When a poet types and submits a poem just composed (or even shows it to spouse or friend) the poet cuts off from the poem the possibility of growth and change; I suspect that the poet wishes to forestall the possibilities of growth and change, though of course without acknowledging the wish. 

If Robert Lowell, John Berryman and Robert Penn Warren publish without allowing for revision or self-criticism, how can we expect a twenty-four-year-old in Manhattan to wait five years-or eighteen months? With these famous men as models, how should we blame the young poet who boasts in a brochure of over four hundred poems published in the last five years? Or the publisher, advertising a book, who brags that his poet has published twelve books in ten years? Or the workshop teacher who meets a colleague on a crosswalk and buffs the backs of his fingernails against his tweed as he proclaims that, over the last two years, he has averaged "placing" two poems a week? 

The workshop schools us to produce the McPoem, which is "a mold in plaster, / Made with no loss of time," with no waste of effort, with no strenuous questioning as to merit. If we attend a workshop we must bring something to class or we do not contribute. What kind of workshop could Horace have contributed to, if he kept his poems to himself for ten years? No, we will not admit Horace and Pope to our workshops, for they will just sit there, holding back their own work, claiming it is not ready, acting superior, a bunch of elitists... 

The poetry workshop resembles a garage to which we bring incomplete or malfunctioning homemade machines for diagnosis and repair. Here is the homemade airplane for which the crazed inventor forgot to provide wings; here is the internal combustion engine all finished except that it lacks a carburetor; here is the rowboat without oarlocks, the ladder without rungs, the motorcycle without wheels. We advance our nonfunctional machine into a circle of other apprentice inventors and one or two senior Edisons. "Very good," they say; "it almost flies.... How about, uh... how about l.,m wings?" Or, "Let me just show you how to build a carburetor...." 

Whatever we bring to this place, we bring it too soon. The weekly meetings of the workshop serve the haste of our culture. When we bring a new poem to the workshop, anxious for praise, others' voices enter the poem's metabolism before it is mature, distorting its possible growth and change. "It's only when you get far enough away from your work to begin to be critical of it yourself"-Robert Frost said-"that anyone else's criticism can be tolerable " Bring to class only, he said, "old and cold things " Nothing is old and cold until it has gone through months of drafts. Therefore workshopping is intrinsically impossible. 

It is from workshops that American poets learn to enjoy the embarrassment of publication?too soon, too soon?because making public is a condition of workshopping. This publication exposes oneself to one's fellow-poets only?a condition of which poets are perpetually accused and frequently guilty. We learn to write poems that will please not the Muse but our contemporaries, thus poems that resemble our contemporaries ' poems-thus the recipe for the McPoem... If we learn one thing else, we learn to publish promiscuously; these premature ejaculations count on number and frequency to counterbalance ineptitude. 

Most poets need the conversation of other poets. They do not need mentors; they need friends, critics, people to argue with. It is no accident that Wordsworth, Coleridge, and Southey were friends when they were young; if Pound, H.D., and William Carlos Williams had not known each other when young, would they have become William Carlos Williams, H.D., and Pound? There have been some lone wolves but not many. The history of poetry is a history of friend ships and rivalries, not only with the dead great ones but with the living young. My four years at Harvard overlapped with the undergraduates Frank O'Hara, Adrienne Rich, John Ashbery, Robert Bly, Peter Davison, L.E. Sissman, and Kenneth Koch. (At the same time Galway Kinnell and W. S. Merwin attended Princeton.). I do not assert that we resembled a sewing circle, that we often helped each other overtly, or even that we liked each other. I do assert that we were lucky to have each other around for purposes of conversation. 

We were not in workshops: we were merely attending college. Where else in this country would we have met each other? 

The American problem of geographical isolation is real. Any remote place may be the site of poetry?imagined, remembered, or lived in?but for almost every poet it is necessary to live in exile before returning home?an exile rich in conflict and confirmation. Central New Hampshire or the" Olympic Peninsula or Cincinnati or the soybean plains of western Minnesota or the lower East Side may shine at the center of our work and our lives; but if we never leave these places we are not likely to grow up enough to do the work. There is a terrible poignancy in the talented artist who fears to leave home?defined as a place first to leave and then to return to. 

So the workshop answers the need for a cafe. But I called it the institutionalized cafe, and it differs from the Parisian version by instituting requirements and by hiring and paying mentors. Workshop mentors even make assignments: "Write a persona poem in the voice of a dead ancestor." "Make a poem containing these ten words in this order with as many other words as you wish." "Write a poem without adjectives, or without prepositions, or without content" These formulas, everyone says, are a whole lot of fun. They also reduce poetry to a parlor game; they trivialize and make safe-seeming the real terrors of real art. This reduction by-formula is not accidental. We play these games in order to reduce poetry to a parlor game. Games serve to democratize, to soften, and to standardize; they are repellent. Although in theory workshops serve a useful purpose in gathering young artists together, workshop practices enforce the McPoem. 

_______________________________________________ 
New-Poetry mailing list 
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 
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From amyhappens  Sun Mar  4 15:56:48 2012
From: amyhappens (amy king)
Date: Sun, 4 Mar 2012 12:56:48 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] What She Said: The All Women Writers Issue
Message-ID: <1330894608.3211.YahooMailNeo@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>



SENTENTIA 4
What She Said: The All Women Writers Issue
164 pages
edited by Paula Bomer, Amy King (poetry) and Jen Michalski (fiction)
$10 (+$2 shipping)



Including work by:

Betsy Boyd, Ana Bozicevic, Mikita Brottman, Megan Calhoun, Ching-in 
Chen, Andrea DeAngelis, Kathy Flann, Sherrie Flick, Heather Fowler, Ana 
Garcia Begua, Rachel Eliza Griffiths, Jen Grow, Toshiya Kamei, Elise 
Levine, Sara Lippmann, Khadijah Queen, Treasure Shields Redmond, Metta 
Sama, Ellen McGrath Smith, Sara Jane Stoner, Meg Tuite, Carolyn 
Zaikowski, Darija Zilic 

http://sententiabooks.com/?p=257
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From ahadada  Mon Mar  5 11:14:47 2012
From: ahadada (ahadada at gol.com)
Date: Mon, 05 Mar 2012 16:14:47 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Request: Truck blog: Feb Issue
Message-ID: <YNaq4WZe.1330964087.4020880.ahadada@gol.com>

The Cid Corman poem is repeated, but one of them appears to have been an
attempt at formatting that didn't work, also it's incomplete.  Could
you please remove the second fragmented attempt?  I'm in your Tri-State
area so my request should be covered by your policy.  Thank you, Jesse
Glass




From gejs1  Mon Mar  5 11:42:16 2012
From: gejs1 (gejs1 at rochester.rr.com)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 11:42:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Request: Truck blog: Feb Issue
In-Reply-To: <YNaq4WZe.1330964087.4020880.ahadada@gol.com>
Message-ID: <20120305164216.Q10N0.46926.root@hrndva-web27-z01>

Thanks, Jesse. Will do. 

I apologize for my eratic driving.

Cheers, 
g.e.
---- ahadada at gol.com wrote: 
> The Cid Corman poem is repeated, but one of them appears to have been an
> attempt at formatting that didn't work, also it's incomplete.  Could
> you please remove the second fragmented attempt?  I'm in your Tri-State
> area so my request should be covered by your policy.  Thank you, Jesse
> Glass
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



From poet_in_hell_files  Mon Mar  5 14:16:14 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files (stephen russell)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 11:16:14 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
In-Reply-To: <1283078373.1794097.1330808970682.JavaMail.root@sz0153a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net>
Message-ID: <1330974974.94682.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Hall is lamenting the loss of patience in favor of the mass produced poem. The rush to publish. & he derides the facile How To approach of assigning a workshop poem.
?
"Write a poem without adjectives, or without prepositions, or without content" These formulas, everyone says, are a whole lot of fun. They also reduce poetry to a parlor game; they trivialize and make safe-seeming the real terrors of real art.
?
Yes, too much revision and a poem can become an "autopsy specimen." Hall was not trivializing the work of other poets. He was speaking about a particular institutioalized approach to teaching ... the workshop. 
--- On Sat, 3/3/12, mykelmarsh at comcast.net <mykelmarsh at comcast.net> wrote:


From: mykelmarsh at comcast.net <mykelmarsh at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 3, 2012, 4:09 PM



#yiv2018541366 p {margin:0;}


so part of what I'm getting here is that if you went to Harvard you wouldn't produce a Mcpoem. It seems like Robert Penn Warren and the 24 year old might also have poet friends who maybe didn't go to Harvard or Princeton. What makes quality in poetry? Why does Donald Hall consider himself a better poet?? Because he revised his poetry and discussed it with friends? Why are the poets he doesn't like presented as comic characters? He seems to be selling his own brand of poetry, the poetry in which Pound was lost, esoteric and unconnected to what is meaningful in most peoples lives, lost in oubliettes of obscurity that may never reach beyond the poets own small circle of very educated friends. There are differences in poetry. Poets have different backgrounds and motivations. By trivializing the work of other poets so generally, he makes himself seem out of touch with anyone but ivy league graduates. There is a lot of quality poetry that comes without over
 analyzing and much that is gained by revising. It is a balance. Its seems just as plausible to me that revising something for ten years might make it look like an autopsy specimen that had been cut a few too many times.



From: "stephen russell" <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 12:23:15 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served











One of Donald Hall's best --
"And every year, Ronald McDonald takes the Pulitzer."

The United States invented mass quick-consumption and we are very good at it. We are not famous for making Ferraris and Rolls Royces; we are famous for the people's car, the Model T, the Model A-"transportation," as we call it: the particular abstracted into the utilitarian generality and two in every garage. Quality is all very well but it is not democratic; if we insist on hand-building Rolls Royces most of us will walk to work. Democracy demands the interchangeable part and the worker on the production line; Thomas Jefferson may have had other notions but de Tocqueville was our prophet. Or take American cuisine: it has never added a sauce to the world's palate, but our fast-food industry overruns the planet.

Thus: our poems, in their charming and interchangeable quantity, do not presume to the status of "Lycidas"-for that would be elitist and un-American. We write and publish the McPoem-ten billion served-which becomes our contribution to the history of literature as the Model T is our contribution to a history which runs from bare feet past elephant and rickshaw to the vehicles of space. Pull in any time day or night, park by the busload, and the McPoem waits on the steam shelf for us, wrapped and protected, indistinguishable, undistinguished, and reliable-the good old McPoem identical from coast to coast and in all the little towns between, subject to the quality control of the least common denominator.

And every year, Ronald McDonald takes the Pulitzer.

To produce the McPoem, institutions must enforce patterns, institutions within institutions; all subject to the same glorious dominance of unconscious economic determinism, template and formula of consumerism.

The McPoem is the product of the workshops of Hamburger University.

Poems have become as instant as coffee or onion soup mix.

Anyone editing a magazine receives poems dated the day of the postmark. When a poet types and submits a poem just composed (or even shows it to spouse or friend) the poet cuts off from the poem the possibility of growth and change; I suspect that the poet wishes to forestall the possibilities of growth and change, though of course without acknowledging the wish.

If Robert Lowell, John Berryman and Robert Penn Warren publish without allowing for revision or self-criticism, how can we expect a twenty-four-year-old in Manhattan to wait five years-or eighteen months? With these famous men as models, how should we blame the young poet who boasts in a brochure of over four hundred poems published in the last five years? Or the publisher, advertising a book, who brags that his poet has published twelve books in ten years? Or the workshop teacher who meets a colleague on a crosswalk and buffs the backs of his fingernails against his tweed as he proclaims that, over the last two years, he has averaged "placing" two poems a week?

The workshop schools us to produce the McPoem, which is "a mold in plaster, / Made with no loss of time," with no waste of effort, with no strenuous questioning as to merit. If we attend a workshop we must bring something to class or we do not contribute. What kind of workshop could Horace have contributed to, if he kept his poems to himself for ten years? No, we will not admit Horace and Pope to our workshops, for they will just sit there, holding back their own work, claiming it is not ready, acting superior, a bunch of elitists...

The poetry workshop resembles a garage to which we bring incomplete or malfunctioning homemade machines for diagnosis and repair. Here is the homemade airplane for which the crazed inventor forgot to provide wings; here is the internal combustion engine all finished except that it lacks a carburetor; here is the rowboat without oarlocks, the ladder without rungs, the motorcycle without wheels. We advance our nonfunctional machine into a circle of other apprentice inventors and one or two senior Edisons. "Very good," they say; "it almost flies.... How about, uh... how about l.,m wings?" Or, "Let me just show you how to build a carburetor...."

Whatever we bring to this place, we bring it too soon. The weekly meetings of the workshop serve the haste of our culture. When we bring a new poem to the workshop, anxious for praise, others' voices enter the poem's metabolism before it is mature, distorting its possible growth and change. "It's only when you get far enough away from your work to begin to be critical of it yourself"-Robert Frost said-"that anyone else's criticism can be tolerable " Bring to class only, he said, "old and cold things " Nothing is old and cold until it has gone through months of drafts. Therefore workshopping is intrinsically impossible.

It is from workshops that American poets learn to enjoy the embarrassment of publication?too soon, too soon?because making public is a condition of workshopping. This publication exposes oneself to one's fellow-poets only?a condition of which poets are perpetually accused and frequently guilty. We learn to write poems that will please not the Muse but our contemporaries, thus poems that resemble our contemporaries ' poems-thus the recipe for the McPoem... If we learn one thing else, we learn to publish promiscuously; these premature ejaculations count on number and frequency to counterbalance ineptitude.

Most poets need the conversation of other poets. They do not need mentors; they need friends, critics, people to argue with. It is no accident that Wordsworth, Coleridge, and Southey were friends when they were young; if Pound, H.D., and William Carlos Williams had not known each other when young, would they have become William Carlos Williams, H.D., and Pound? There have been some lone wolves but not many. The history of poetry is a history of friend ships and rivalries, not only with the dead great ones but with the living young. My four years at Harvard overlapped with the undergraduates Frank O'Hara, Adrienne Rich, John Ashbery, Robert Bly, Peter Davison, L.E. Sissman, and Kenneth Koch. (At the same time Galway Kinnell and W. S. Merwin attended Princeton.). I do not assert that we resembled a sewing circle, that we often helped each other overtly, or even that we liked each other. I do assert that we were lucky to have each other around for purposes
 of conversation.

We were not in workshops: we were merely attending college. Where else in this country would we have met each other?

The American problem of geographical isolation is real. Any remote place may be the site of poetry?imagined, remembered, or lived in?but for almost every poet it is necessary to live in exile before returning home?an exile rich in conflict and confirmation. Central New Hampshire or the" Olympic Peninsula or Cincinnati or the soybean plains of western Minnesota or the lower East Side may shine at the center of our work and our lives; but if we never leave these places we are not likely to grow up enough to do the work. There is a terrible poignancy in the talented artist who fears to leave home?defined as a place first to leave and then to return to.

So the workshop answers the need for a cafe. But I called it the institutionalized cafe, and it differs from the Parisian version by instituting requirements and by hiring and paying mentors. Workshop mentors even make assignments: "Write a persona poem in the voice of a dead ancestor." "Make a poem containing these ten words in this order with as many other words as you wish." "Write a poem without adjectives, or without prepositions, or without content" These formulas, everyone says, are a whole lot of fun. They also reduce poetry to a parlor game; they trivialize and make safe-seeming the real terrors of real art. This reduction by-formula is not accidental. We play these games in order to reduce poetry to a parlor game. Games serve to democratize, to soften, and to standardize; they are repellent. Although in theory workshops serve a useful purpose in gathering young artists together, workshop practices enforce the McPoem. 

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From poet_in_hell_files  Mon Mar  5 14:44:30 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files (stephen russell)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 11:44:30 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
In-Reply-To: <1330974974.94682.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1330976670.90956.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

In fact, Hall concludes with this defining sentence:
?
Although in theory workshops serve a useful purpose in gathering young artists together, workshop practices enforce the McPoem. 




--- On Mon, 3/5/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:


From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Monday, March 5, 2012, 2:16 PM







Hall is lamenting the loss of patience in favor of the mass produced poem. The rush to publish. & he derides the facile How To approach of assigning a workshop poem.
?
"Write a poem without adjectives, or without prepositions, or without content" These formulas, everyone says, are a whole lot of fun. They also reduce poetry to a parlor game; they trivialize and make safe-seeming the real terrors of real art.
?
Yes, too much revision and a poem can become an "autopsy specimen." Hall was not trivializing the work of other poets. He was speaking about a particular institutioalized approach to teaching ... the workshop. 
--- On Sat, 3/3/12, mykelmarsh at comcast.net <mykelmarsh at comcast.net> wrote:


From: mykelmarsh at comcast.net <mykelmarsh at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Saturday, March 3, 2012, 4:09 PM



#yiv2121898217  p {margin:0;}


so part of what I'm getting here is that if you went to Harvard you wouldn't produce a Mcpoem. It seems like Robert Penn Warren and the 24 year old might also have poet friends who maybe didn't go to Harvard or Princeton. What makes quality in poetry? Why does Donald Hall consider himself a better poet?? Because he revised his poetry and discussed it with friends? Why are the poets he doesn't like presented as comic characters? He seems to be selling his own brand of poetry, the poetry in which Pound was lost, esoteric and unconnected to what is meaningful in most peoples lives, lost in oubliettes of obscurity that may never reach beyond the poets own small circle of very educated friends. There are differences in poetry. Poets have different backgrounds and motivations. By trivializing the work of other poets so generally, he makes himself seem out of touch with anyone but ivy league graduates. There is a lot of quality poetry that comes without over
 analyzing and much that is gained by revising. It is a balance. Its seems just as plausible to me that revising something for ten years might make it look like an autopsy specimen that had been cut a few too many times.



From: "stephen russell" <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent: Saturday, March 3, 2012 12:23:15 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served











One of Donald Hall's best --
"And every year, Ronald McDonald takes the Pulitzer."

The United States invented mass quick-consumption and we are very good at it. We are not famous for making Ferraris and Rolls Royces; we are famous for the people's car, the Model T, the Model A-"transportation," as we call it: the particular abstracted into the utilitarian generality and two in every garage. Quality is all very well but it is not democratic; if we insist on hand-building Rolls Royces most of us will walk to work. Democracy demands the interchangeable part and the worker on the production line; Thomas Jefferson may have had other notions but de Tocqueville was our prophet. Or take American cuisine: it has never added a sauce to the world's palate, but our fast-food industry overruns the planet.

Thus: our poems, in their charming and interchangeable quantity, do not presume to the status of "Lycidas"-for that would be elitist and un-American. We write and publish the McPoem-ten billion served-which becomes our contribution to the history of literature as the Model T is our contribution to a history which runs from bare feet past elephant and rickshaw to the vehicles of space. Pull in any time day or night, park by the busload, and the McPoem waits on the steam shelf for us, wrapped and protected, indistinguishable, undistinguished, and reliable-the good old McPoem identical from coast to coast and in all the little towns between, subject to the quality control of the least common denominator.

And every year, Ronald McDonald takes the Pulitzer.

To produce the McPoem, institutions must enforce patterns, institutions within institutions; all subject to the same glorious dominance of unconscious economic determinism, template and formula of consumerism.

The McPoem is the product of the workshops of Hamburger University.

Poems have become as instant as coffee or onion soup mix.

Anyone editing a magazine receives poems dated the day of the postmark. When a poet types and submits a poem just composed (or even shows it to spouse or friend) the poet cuts off from the poem the possibility of growth and change; I suspect that the poet wishes to forestall the possibilities of growth and change, though of course without acknowledging the wish.

If Robert Lowell, John Berryman and Robert Penn Warren publish without allowing for revision or self-criticism, how can we expect a twenty-four-year-old in Manhattan to wait five years-or eighteen months? With these famous men as models, how should we blame the young poet who boasts in a brochure of over four hundred poems published in the last five years? Or the publisher, advertising a book, who brags that his poet has published twelve books in ten years? Or the workshop teacher who meets a colleague on a crosswalk and buffs the backs of his fingernails against his tweed as he proclaims that, over the last two years, he has averaged "placing" two poems a week?

The workshop schools us to produce the McPoem, which is "a mold in plaster, / Made with no loss of time," with no waste of effort, with no strenuous questioning as to merit. If we attend a workshop we must bring something to class or we do not contribute. What kind of workshop could Horace have contributed to, if he kept his poems to himself for ten years? No, we will not admit Horace and Pope to our workshops, for they will just sit there, holding back their own work, claiming it is not ready, acting superior, a bunch of elitists...

The poetry workshop resembles a garage to which we bring incomplete or malfunctioning homemade machines for diagnosis and repair. Here is the homemade airplane for which the crazed inventor forgot to provide wings; here is the internal combustion engine all finished except that it lacks a carburetor; here is the rowboat without oarlocks, the ladder without rungs, the motorcycle without wheels. We advance our nonfunctional machine into a circle of other apprentice inventors and one or two senior Edisons. "Very good," they say; "it almost flies.... How about, uh... how about l.,m wings?" Or, "Let me just show you how to build a carburetor...."

Whatever we bring to this place, we bring it too soon. The weekly meetings of the workshop serve the haste of our culture. When we bring a new poem to the workshop, anxious for praise, others' voices enter the poem's metabolism before it is mature, distorting its possible growth and change. "It's only when you get far enough away from your work to begin to be critical of it yourself"-Robert Frost said-"that anyone else's criticism can be tolerable " Bring to class only, he said, "old and cold things " Nothing is old and cold until it has gone through months of drafts. Therefore workshopping is intrinsically impossible.

It is from workshops that American poets learn to enjoy the embarrassment of publication?too soon, too soon?because making public is a condition of workshopping. This publication exposes oneself to one's fellow-poets only?a condition of which poets are perpetually accused and frequently guilty. We learn to write poems that will please not the Muse but our contemporaries, thus poems that resemble our contemporaries ' poems-thus the recipe for the McPoem... If we learn one thing else, we learn to publish promiscuously; these premature ejaculations count on number and frequency to counterbalance ineptitude.

Most poets need the conversation of other poets. They do not need mentors; they need friends, critics, people to argue with. It is no accident that Wordsworth, Coleridge, and Southey were friends when they were young; if Pound, H.D., and William Carlos Williams had not known each other when young, would they have become William Carlos Williams, H.D., and Pound? There have been some lone wolves but not many. The history of poetry is a history of friend ships and rivalries, not only with the dead great ones but with the living young. My four years at Harvard overlapped with the undergraduates Frank O'Hara, Adrienne Rich, John Ashbery, Robert Bly, Peter Davison, L.E. Sissman, and Kenneth Koch. (At the same time Galway Kinnell and W. S. Merwin attended Princeton.). I do not assert that we resembled a sewing circle, that we often helped each other overtly, or even that we liked each other. I do assert that we were lucky to have each other around for purposes
 of conversation.

We were not in workshops: we were merely attending college. Where else in this country would we have met each other?

The American problem of geographical isolation is real. Any remote place may be the site of poetry?imagined, remembered, or lived in?but for almost every poet it is necessary to live in exile before returning home?an exile rich in conflict and confirmation. Central New Hampshire or the" Olympic Peninsula or Cincinnati or the soybean plains of western Minnesota or the lower East Side may shine at the center of our work and our lives; but if we never leave these places we are not likely to grow up enough to do the work. There is a terrible poignancy in the talented artist who fears to leave home?defined as a place first to leave and then to return to.

So the workshop answers the need for a cafe. But I called it the institutionalized cafe, and it differs from the Parisian version by instituting requirements and by hiring and paying mentors. Workshop mentors even make assignments: "Write a persona poem in the voice of a dead ancestor." "Make a poem containing these ten words in this order with as many other words as you wish." "Write a poem without adjectives, or without prepositions, or without content" These formulas, everyone says, are a whole lot of fun. They also reduce poetry to a parlor game; they trivialize and make safe-seeming the real terrors of real art. This reduction by-formula is not accidental. We play these games in order to reduce poetry to a parlor game. Games serve to democratize, to soften, and to standardize; they are repellent. Although in theory workshops serve a useful purpose in gathering young artists together, workshop practices enforce the McPoem. 

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman  Mon Mar  5 15:42:20 2012
From: bobgrumman (bob grumman)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 15:42:20 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
In-Reply-To: <1330976670.90956.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1330976670.90956.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <A2070EAF38F144E796BAA7572EEF1C9B@BobHP>


      In fact, Hall concludes with this defining sentence:

      Although in theory workshops serve a useful purpose in gathering young artists together, workshop practices enforce the McPoem. 
     

Some thoughts.  College workshops or the equivalent in all subjects gather together young apprentices in their subjects and teach what the conventional understanding at the time of the subject.  A poetry workshop will enforce the McPoem only on those without the natural aptitude to do other kinds of poems.  Amusingly, while Hall?s poems may not be ?McPoems,? they most certainly are Wilshberian.  Most workshops, like most anything, will be less than super-effective, but most will be okay.  

I think asking poets, journeymen as well as apprentices, to write poems without adjectives or?better?without either verbs or nouns, is a great idea.  Basically such ?games? are the main value of the genuine language poem, one of the very few significant alternatives we have to the McPoem.   Another, of course, is adding non-verbal elements to poems.  If composing poetry isn?t a game for you (however serious a one), I would wonder why you?re bothering with it. 

It just now struck me that a big problem with the whole idea of teaching poetry is that you will end, as in the teaching of just about any subject, with many mediocre journeymen who will never significantly improve, or stray from what the status quo is in their field.  This is a problem in poetry that it is not in other fields because there?s no real place in society for mediocre poets other than in teaching (or maybe at Hallmark).  In engineering, for instance, there?s a strong demand for mediocre engineers?engineers, that is, who can carry out engineering tasks conventionally but soundly.  Many mediocre composers can be used in orchestras and bands.  There are many openings, too, for good but uninspired representational visual artists.  

Seems to me that all that is most wrong with college poetry programs could be taken care of with one widely-circulated decent college anthology of poetry?that included decent criticism of poetry.  I won?t define what I think would be a decent anthology because I know how annoying that would be.  I will say it would contain a fair amount of Wilshberian poems?and McPoems.

--Bob
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From poet_in_hell_files  Mon Mar  5 15:58:07 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files (stephen russell)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 12:58:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
In-Reply-To: <A2070EAF38F144E796BAA7572EEF1C9B@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1330981087.63871.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

True, it's a wonderful game. But?Hall's spin was interesting. This essay should be included in his greatest hits. 

--- On Mon, 3/5/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Monday, March 5, 2012, 3:42 PM







?





In fact, Hall concludes with this defining sentence:
?
Although in theory workshops serve a useful purpose in gathering young artists together, workshop practices enforce the McPoem. 

Some thoughts.? College workshops or the equivalent in all subjects gather together young apprentices in their subjects and teach what the conventional understanding at the time of the subject.? A poetry workshop will enforce the McPoem only on those without the natural aptitude to do other kinds of poems.? Amusingly, while Hall?s poems may not be ?McPoems,? they most certainly are Wilshberian.? Most workshops, like most anything, will be less than super-effective, but most will be okay.? 
?
I think asking poets, journeymen as well as apprentices, to write poems without adjectives or?better?without either verbs or nouns, is a great idea.? Basically such ?games? are the main value of the genuine language poem, one of the very few significant alternatives we have to the McPoem.?? Another, of course, is adding non-verbal elements to poems.? If composing poetry isn?t a game for you (however serious a one), I would wonder why you?re bothering with it. 
?
It just now struck me that a big problem with the whole idea of teaching poetry is that you will end, as in the teaching of just about any subject, with many mediocre journeymen who will never significantly improve, or stray from what the status quo is in their field.? This is a problem in poetry that it is not in other fields because there?s no real place in society for mediocre poets other than in teaching (or maybe at Hallmark).? In engineering, for instance, there?s a strong demand for mediocre engineers?engineers, that is, who can carry out engineering tasks conventionally but soundly.? Many mediocre composers can be used in orchestras and bands.? There are many openings, too, for good but uninspired representational visual artists.? 
?
Seems to me that all that is most wrong with college poetry programs could be taken care of with one widely-circulated decent college anthology of poetry?that included decent criticism of poetry.? I won?t define what I think would be a decent anthology because I know how annoying that would be.? I will say it would contain a fair amount of Wilshberian poems?and McPoems.
?
--Bob
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From bobgrumman  Mon Mar  5 16:17:43 2012
From: bobgrumman (bob grumman)
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 16:17:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
In-Reply-To: <1330981087.63871.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1330981087.63871.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6438BC8C8BF342069A97F5E34A2AEC50@BobHP>

      True, it's a wonderful game. But Hall's spin was interesting. This essay should be included in his greatest hits.  


Yeah.  I give him points for being instrumental in getting that discussion (and a few other good ones) going?although, sure, like everything else, poor versions of it have been repeated ad nauseam.  Hey, how?s this for my motto for Teaching an Introductory Course in Poetry: Expose your students to as wide a range of poetry as you can, with passion for your favorites, and against the ones you like least.

I think the best way to capture students for poetry is to express passion in favor of those poems you love; the second-best way is to express passion against those poems you hate.  A certain percentage of your best students will automatically dive into the latter?those biologically incapable of not reacting against authority.  Oddly, I genuinely can?t think of a kind of poetry I hate, but could find quite I few I don?t like at all.  The expression of pssionate confusion would be good to?as in ?What in the world is Gertrude trying to say or do here??

--Bob
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From bobgrumman  Tue Mar  6 13:28:29 2012
From: bobgrumman (bob grumman)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 13:28:29 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
In-Reply-To: <6438BC8C8BF342069A97F5E34A2AEC50@BobHP>
References: <1330981087.63871.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<6438BC8C8BF342069A97F5E34A2AEC50@BobHP>
Message-ID: <7D864A44A13047B090DE8E5F659A2632@BobHP>

The fact that poets (and other artists) have to compete with the dead in their vocations?is it a wonderfully inspiring, or a frustratingly near-impossible, challenge (particularly considering that the dead tend to accumulate points faster than the living ever can)?  To me, there?s no hope for anyone who isn?t satisfied to imitate the dead.  Such a person must be satisfied with daydreams about the strides he?ll make once safely dead.
--Bob
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From poet_in_hell_files  Tue Mar  6 14:18:06 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files (stephen russell)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 11:18:06 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
In-Reply-To: <6438BC8C8BF342069A97F5E34A2AEC50@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1331061486.68009.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>


Most kids who take these workshops have read little, and have thought little about poetry or art. Poetry is simply a means of self-expression
 for most of them. & that may explain the existence of the McPoem, 
an uninspired string of inoffensive sentences. If universities taught 
poetry as a subject worthy of serious study we'd probably have less 
McPoems, and more outstanding, innovative verse. A Make It New ethos
 worthy of NietzNietzsched be an interesting approach. In order to make 
it new, one would have to know the old. One would have to know how to? "Make it new." 

--- On Mon, 3/5/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Monday, March 5, 2012, 4:17 PM













  
  
    True, it's a wonderful game. But Hall's spin was 
      interesting. This essay should be included in his greatest hits. 
  
?
Yeah.? I give him points for being instrumental in 
getting that discussion (and a few other good ones) going?although, sure, like 
everything else, poor versions of it have been repeated ad nauseam.? Hey, 
how?s this for my motto for Teaching an Introductory Course in Poetry: Expose 
your students to as wide a range of poetry as you can, with passion for your 
favorites, and against the ones you like least.
?
I think the best way to capture students for poetry is to 
express passion in favor of those poems you love; the second-best way is to 
express passion against those poems you hate.? A certain percentage of your 
best students will automatically dive into the latter?those biologically 
incapable of not reacting against authority.? Oddly, I genuinely can?t 
think of a kind of poetry I hate, but could find quite I few I don?t like at 
all.? The expression of pssionate confusion would be good to?as in ?What in 
the world is Gertrude trying to say or do here??
?
--Bob

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

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From poet_in_hell_files  Tue Mar  6 14:43:47 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files (stephen russell)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 11:43:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
In-Reply-To: <1331061486.68009.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1331063027.94457.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

For instance: Students would first know the history of poetry. The ancients, the major English speaking poets ... Chaucer, Donne ... the Romantics, Blake ... just as a philosophy student studies Plato, Aristotle, and perhaps the pre-Socratic philosophers (Heidegger's expertise), before moving on to the modern schools of thought. A philosophy student is aware of the beginning of modern philosophy (Descartes), and should have some familiarity with Kant before plunging into the 2Oth century. Why shouldn't a student of poetry have a similiar grounding?

--- On Tue, 3/6/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Tuesday, March 6, 2012, 2:18 PM


Most kids who take these workshops have read little, and have thought little about poetry or art. Poetry is simply a means of self-expression
 for most of them. & that may explain the existence of the McPoem, 
an uninspired string of inoffensive sentences. If universities taught 
poetry as a subject worthy of serious study we'd probably have less 
McPoems, and more outstanding, innovative verse. A Make It New ethos
 worthy of NietzNietzsched be an interesting approach. In order to make 
it new, one would have to know the old. One would have to know how to? "Make it new." 

--- On Mon, 3/5/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Monday, March 5, 2012, 4:17 PM













  
  
    True, it's a wonderful game. But Hall's spin was 
      interesting. This essay should be included in his greatest hits. 
  
?
Yeah.? I give him points for being instrumental in 
getting that discussion (and a few other good ones) going?although, sure, like 
everything else, poor versions of it have been repeated ad nauseam.? Hey, 
how?s this for my motto for Teaching an Introductory Course in Poetry: Expose 
your students to as wide a range of poetry as you can, with passion for your 
favorites, and against the ones you like least.
?
I think the best way to capture students for poetry is to 
express passion in favor of those poems you love; the second-best way is to 
express passion against those poems you hate.? A certain percentage of your 
best students will automatically dive into the latter?those biologically 
incapable of not reacting against authority.? Oddly, I genuinely can?t 
think of a kind of poetry I hate, but could find quite I few I don?t like at 
all.? The expression of pssionate confusion would be good to?as in ?What in 
the world is Gertrude trying to say or do here??
?
--Bob

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

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From poet_in_hell_files  Tue Mar  6 15:05:25 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files (stephen russell)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 12:05:25 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
In-Reply-To: <1331063027.94457.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1331064325.15915.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

?or perhaps have students develop and defend an aesthetic. 

--- On Tue, 3/6/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Tuesday, March 6, 2012, 2:43 PM

For instance: Students would first know the history of poetry. The ancients, the major English speaking poets ... Chaucer, Donne ... the Romantics, Blake ... just as a philosophy student studies Plato, Aristotle, and perhaps the pre-Socratic philosophers (Heidegger's expertise), before moving on to the modern schools of thought. A philosophy student is aware of the beginning of modern philosophy (Descartes), and should have some familiarity with Kant before plunging into the 2Oth century. Why shouldn't a student of poetry have a similiar grounding?

--- On Tue, 3/6/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ...
 ten million served
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Tuesday, March 6, 2012, 2:18 PM


Most kids who take these workshops have read little, and have thought little about poetry or art. Poetry is simply a means of self-expression
 for most of them. & that may explain the existence of the McPoem, 
an uninspired string of inoffensive sentences. If universities taught 
poetry as a subject worthy of serious study we'd probably have less 
McPoems, and more outstanding, innovative verse. A Make It New ethos
 worthy of NietzNietzsched be an interesting approach. In order to make 
it new, one would have to know the old. One would have to know how to? "Make it new." 

--- On Mon, 3/5/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Monday, March 5, 2012, 4:17 PM













  
  
    True, it's a wonderful game. But Hall's spin was 
      interesting. This essay should be included in his greatest hits. 
  
?
Yeah.? I give him points for being instrumental in 
getting that discussion (and a few other good ones) going?although, sure, like 
everything else, poor versions of it have been repeated ad nauseam.? Hey, 
how?s this for my motto for Teaching an Introductory Course in Poetry: Expose 
your students to as wide a range of poetry as you can, with passion for your 
favorites, and against the ones you like least.
?
I think the best way to capture students for poetry is to 
express passion in favor of those poems you love; the second-best way is to 
express passion against those poems you hate.? A certain percentage of your 
best students will automatically dive into the latter?those biologically 
incapable of not reacting against authority.? Oddly, I genuinely can?t 
think of a kind of poetry I hate, but could find quite I few I don?t like at 
all.? The expression of pssionate confusion would be good to?as in ?What in 
the world is Gertrude trying to say or do here??
?
--Bob

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From bobgrumman  Tue Mar  6 15:07:53 2012
From: bobgrumman (bob grumman)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 15:07:53 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
In-Reply-To: <1331063027.94457.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1331063027.94457.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7577B18B18BD42BD877549138F48626B@BobHP>

You?re sounding like Pound.  Only problem is deciding which poets you should be familiar with.  I agree you ought to know a reasonable number of dead poets, a few of them in depth, but would not want to make any list of ones you need to know.  Maybe a list of a thousand at least twenty of whom you should know fairly well and five of whom you should know extremely well.  With a hope that they would not be all in the same school or similar schools.  Even if the school was visual poetry.

--Bob

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 2:43 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served

      For instance: Students would first know the history of poetry. The ancients, the major English speaking poets ... Chaucer, Donne ... the Romantics, Blake ... just as a philosophy student studies Plato, Aristotle, and perhaps the pre-Socratic philosophers (Heidegger's expertise), before moving on to the modern schools of thought. A philosophy student is aware of the beginning of modern philosophy (Descartes), and should have some familiarity with Kant before plunging into the 2Oth century. Why shouldn't a student of poetry have a similiar grounding?

      --- On Tue, 3/6/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:


        From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
        Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
        To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
        Date: Tuesday, March 6, 2012, 2:18 PM



              Most kids who take these workshops have read little, and have thought little about poetry or art. Poetry is simply a means of self-expression for most of them. & that may explain the existence of the McPoem, an uninspired string of inoffensive sentences. If universities taught poetry as a subject worthy of serious study we'd probably have less McPoems, and more outstanding, innovative verse. A Make It New ethos worthy of NietzNietzsched be an interesting approach. In order to make it new, one would have to know the old. One would have to know how to  "Make it new." 

              --- On Mon, 3/5/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


                From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
                Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
                To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
                Date: Monday, March 5, 2012, 4:17 PM


                      True, it's a wonderful game. But Hall's spin was interesting. This essay should be included in his greatest hits.  


                Yeah.  I give him points for being instrumental in getting that discussion (and a few other good ones) going?although, sure, like everything else, poor versions of it have been repeated ad nauseam.  Hey, how?s this for my motto for Teaching an Introductory Course in Poetry: Expose your students to as wide a range of poetry as you can, with passion for your favorites, and against the ones you like least.

                I think the best way to capture students for poetry is to express passion in favor of those poems you love; the second-best way is to express passion against those poems you hate.  A certain percentage of your best students will automatically dive into the latter?those biologically incapable of not reacting against authority.  Oddly, I genuinely can?t think of a kind of poetry I hate, but could find quite I few I don?t like at all.  The expression of pssionate confusion would be good to?as in ?What in the world is Gertrude trying to say or do here??

                --Bob

                -----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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                New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
                http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
             


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From poet_in_hell_files  Tue Mar  6 15:20:16 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files (stephen russell)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 12:20:16 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
In-Reply-To: <7577B18B18BD42BD877549138F48626B@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1331065216.18810.YahooMailClassic@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

... I suffer from a fatal condition known as Pound envy ... since Ezra seemed to know everything ...in several languages ...? going way back ... Actually, knowing a few non- English speaking poets in their native languages is probably as good, if not better, than the program I outlined below. 

... come to think of it, who'd want to emulate Pound? Wasn't the guy a nutcase? The Italians thought so. 



--- On Tue, 3/6/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Tuesday, March 6, 2012, 3:07 PM





You?re sounding like Pound.? Only problem is deciding which poets you 
should be familiar with.? I agree you ought to know a reasonable number of 
dead poets, a few of them in depth, but would not want to make any list of ones 
you need to know.? Maybe a list of a thousand at least twenty of whom you 
should know fairly well and five of whom you should know extremely well.? 
With a hope that they would not be all in the same school or similar 
schools.? Even if the school was visual poetry.
?
--Bob


?

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 2:43 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million 
served
?


  
  
    For instance: Students would first know the history of 
      poetry. The ancients, the major English speaking poets ... Chaucer, Donne 
      ... the Romantics, Blake ... just as a philosophy student studies Plato, 
      Aristotle, and perhaps the pre-Socratic philosophers (Heidegger's 
      expertise), before moving on to the modern schools of thought. A 
      philosophy student is aware of the beginning of modern philosophy 
      (Descartes), and should have some familiarity with Kant before plunging 
      into the 2Oth century. Why shouldn't a student of poetry have a similiar 
      grounding?

--- On Tue, 3/6/12, stephen russell 
      <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

      
From: 
        stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: 
        [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
To: "NewPoetry List" 
        <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Tuesday, March 6, 2012, 2:18 
        PM


        
        
          
          
            
Most kids who take these workshops have read 
              little, and have thought little about poetry or art. Poetry is 
              simply a means of self-expression for most of 
              them. & that may explain the existence of the McPoem, an 
              uninspired string of inoffensive sentences. If universities taught 
              poetry as a subject worthy of serious study we'd probably have 
              less McPoems, and more outstanding, innovative verse. A Make It New ethos worthy of 
              NietzNietzsched be an interesting approach. In order to make it 
              new, one would have to know the old. One would have to know how to? "Make it new." 
              

--- On Mon, 3/5/12, bob grumman 
              <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

              
From: 
                bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: 
                [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
To: "NewPoetry 
                List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Monday, March 
                5, 2012, 4:17 PM


                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                
                  
                  
                    True, it's a wonderful game. But Hall's 
                      spin was interesting. This essay should be included in his 
                      greatest hits. 
                ?
                Yeah.? I give him points for being 
                instrumental in getting that discussion (and a few other good 
                ones) going?although, sure, like everything else, poor versions 
                of it have been repeated ad nauseam.? Hey, how?s this for 
                my motto for Teaching an Introductory Course in Poetry: Expose 
                your students to as wide a range of poetry as you can, with 
                passion for your favorites, and against the ones you 
                like least.
                ?
                I think the best way to capture students 
                for poetry is to express passion in favor of those poems you 
                love; the second-best way is to express passion against those 
                poems you hate.? A certain percentage of your best students 
                will automatically dive into the latter?those biologically 
                incapable of not reacting against authority.? Oddly, I 
                genuinely can?t think of a kind of poetry I hate, but could find 
                quite I few I don?t like at all.? The expression of 
                pssionate confusion would be good to?as in ?What in the world is 
                Gertrude trying to say or do here??
                ?
                --Bob
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From ahadada  Tue Mar  6 16:30:15 2012
From: ahadada (ahadada at gol.com)
Date: Tue, 06 Mar 2012 21:30:15 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Donald Hall and the Golden Arches
Message-ID: <GYMAxGwO.1331069415.5769430.ahadada@gol.com>

I like D. H.'s sentiment, but his poems leave me cold.  Workshops feed
the great American money-making industry of Creative Writing Programs
evident to anyone who attends the AWP convention where Cr. Writing INC.
& appendages struts its stuff.  On the personal level workshops are a
bit like sugar pills and laying on of hands.  If a student believes
strong enough, then they're healed.  Hall addresses the real value of
having strong voices nearby that will offer advice as needed.  Emily
Dickinson had such a voice (for a time) in her sister-in-law Susan.  Too
many friends, however, and one risks the send-off I saw happen to a
likely young fellow at St. Marks Poetry Project who read wretched stuff
in the midst of in-jokes, eye-winkings, ear-wrigglings, hand-signals,
and other gestures of "belonging" to the in-crowd.

What Hall doesn't mention is that we have Mccarpenters, Mcprinters,
Mcpotters, and lots of Mcmediocre folks who attempt the real stuff and
end up creating mediocre things of all sorts.

We have Mcsushi masters in Japan too--you see them making supermarket
sushi--and it's not too bad, but nothing like the work of a master. 
Jess




From poet_in_hell_files  Tue Mar  6 16:52:24 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files (stephen russell)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 13:52:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Donald Hall and the Golden Arches
In-Reply-To: <GYMAxGwO.1331069415.5769430.ahadada@gol.com>
Message-ID: <1331070744.20532.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

I've suspected as much, that creative writing programs exist because they're profitable. Some may be useful. Iowa, for instance. Since it attracts top talent. 

--- On Tue, 3/6/12, ahadada at gol.com <ahadada at gol.com> wrote:

From: ahadada at gol.com <ahadada at gol.com>
Subject: [New-Poetry] Donald Hall and the Golden Arches
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Date: Tuesday, March 6, 2012, 4:30 PM

I like D. H.'s sentiment, but his poems leave me cold.? Workshops feed
the great American money-making industry of Creative Writing Programs
evident to anyone who attends the AWP convention where Cr. Writing INC.
& appendages struts its stuff.? On the personal level workshops are a
bit like sugar pills and laying on of hands.? If a student believes
strong enough, then they're healed.? Hall addresses the real value of
having strong voices nearby that will offer advice as needed.? Emily
Dickinson had such a voice (for a time) in her sister-in-law Susan.? Too
many friends, however, and one risks the send-off I saw happen to a
likely young fellow at St. Marks Poetry Project who read wretched stuff
in the midst of in-jokes, eye-winkings, ear-wrigglings, hand-signals,
and other gestures of "belonging" to the in-crowd.

What Hall doesn't mention is that we have Mccarpenters, Mcprinters,
Mcpotters, and lots of Mcmediocre folks who attempt the real stuff and
end up creating mediocre things of all sorts.

We have Mcsushi masters in Japan too--you see them making supermarket
sushi--and it's not too bad, but nothing like the work of a master. 
Jess


_______________________________________________
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From amyhappens  Tue Mar  6 17:11:44 2012
From: amyhappens (amy king)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 14:11:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... ten million served
In-Reply-To: <1330981087.63871.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <A2070EAF38F144E796BAA7572EEF1C9B@BobHP>
	<1330981087.63871.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1331071904.73016.YahooMailNeo@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Wow.? I'm so glad I've been away to find that New Poetry is populated, nay, overrun as always by this caliber of absurd proclamations.? After deleting tons of emails from this and last week written by X and? X's twin, I finally made the error of peaking at this latest one to find out what the countless back-and-forth slaps on the backs were about.? 

The zealous and insistent need for some abstract ridiculous Gold Standard poem (to be penned by god-knows-who-can-fit-that-bill) that suits your specific tastes speaks oodles about the myopia of hierarchies and exactly who needs them in order to feel like they are primo in the world.? Just wow to the scuffling that goes into building them and the Emperor's New Clothes conversations that make them "real." ? Y'all should check your mirrors sometimes, take some pictures and get some perspective.

Over and out,

Amy

p.s.? And no, for real, I won't be reading replies to this thread so carry on with whatever backslapping fits you need to? make yourselves feel better ...? it's time to focus my energy and write work that I hope never meets your Golden Standard - and better yet, will undo such perverted and limited ways of thinking (not-thinking).




________________________________
 



>From: bob grumman? 
>
>?In fact, Hall concludes with this defining sentence:
>?
>Although in theory workshops serve a useful purpose in gathering young artists together, workshop practices enforce the McPoem. 
> 
>Some thoughts.? College workshops or the equivalent in all subjects gather together young apprentices in their subjects and teach what the conventional understanding at the time of the subject.? A poetry workshop will enforce the McPoem only on those without the natural aptitude to do other kinds of poems.? Amusingly, while Hall?s poems may not be ?McPoems,? they most certainly are Wilshberian.? Most workshops, like most anything, will be less than super-effective, but most will be okay.? 
>?
>I think asking poets, journeymen as well as apprentices, to write poems without adjectives or?better?without either verbs or nouns, is a great idea.? Basically such ?games? are the main value of the genuine language poem, one of the very few significant alternatives we have to the McPoem.?? Another, of course, is adding non-verbal elements to poems.? If composing poetry isn?t a game for you (however serious a one), I would wonder why you?re bothering with it. 
>?
>It just now struck me that a big problem with the whole idea of teaching poetry is that you will end, as in the teaching of just about any subject, with many mediocre journeymen who will never significantly improve, or stray from what the status quo is in their field.? This is a problem in poetry that it is not in other fields because there?s no real place in society for mediocre poets other than in teaching (or maybe at Hallmark).? In engineering, for instance, there?s a strong demand for mediocre engineers?engineers, that is, who can carry out engineering tasks conventionally but soundly.? Many mediocre composers can be used in orchestras and bands.? There are many openings, too, for good but uninspired representational visual artists.? 
>?
>Seems to me that all that is most wrong with college poetry programs could be taken care of with one widely-circulated decent college anthology of poetry?that included decent criticism of poetry.? I won?t define what I think would be a decent anthology because I know how annoying that would be.? I will say it would contain a fair amount of Wilshberian poems?and McPoems.
>?
>--Bob
> 
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From bobgrumman  Tue Mar  6 17:17:54 2012
From: bobgrumman (bob grumman)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 17:17:54 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Donald Hall and the Golden Arches
In-Reply-To: <1331070744.20532.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1331070744.20532.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C880B3E31E5C40C1A6B6C02EB61C4ECF@BobHP>



From: stephen russell 
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 4:52 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Donald Hall and the Golden Arches

      I've suspected as much, that creative writing programs exist because they're profitable. Some may be useful. Iowa, for instance. Since it attracts top talent.
     

A loud no comment on that, Stephen?but I liked Lloyd Dunn?s work (dunno what he?s been up to for the past twenty years or so), and he came out of Iowa.  I?d be curious to know what schools have produced any of the best poets during the past thirty years.  Harvard produced a lot before 1950, but very few since (none active in my sort of poetry).

--Bob
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From amyhappens  Tue Mar  6 18:28:37 2012
From: amyhappens (amy king)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 15:28:37 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] OT:  Speaking of Whitman's "Democratic Vistas"
Message-ID: <1331076517.95340.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Few Female Bylines in Major Magazines:? Losing the count 
By Erin Siegal @ Columbia Journalism Review

For those unfamiliar with ?The Count,? as VIDA calls it, the numbers are shocking. At The Atlantic, women wrote 64 articles in 2011, while men wrote 184. The overall 
percentage of female bylines dropped 1.5 percent from last year, when 
the numbers were 52 to 158. 


At The New Yorker, whose byline disparity was covered by CJR 
in 2005, men wrote 449 articles in 2010, while women wrote 163?or 26.63 
percent of the total. In 2011, that percentage slid to 26.44 percent. At Harper?s, the number fell to 16.66 percent from 21 percent. Female bylines in the New York Review of Books comprised a mere 12.5 percent of the total in 2011, down from 14.6 percent in 2010. Women?s bylines in the London Review of Books dropped to 13.88 percent from 17.74 percent in 2010. The Boston Review also slipped from 34.96 percent to 31.41 percent. Even progressive magazines like The Nation aren?t gender-equal; in 2011, just 28.71 percent of Nation articles were written by women.* 
Continued here - http://www.cjr.org/behind_the_news/few_female_bylines_in_major_ma.php

"I have sometimes thought, indeed, that the sole avenue and means of a reconstructed sociology
depended, primarily, on a new birth, elevation, expansion, invigoration of woman, affording, for races to
come ... Great, great, indeed,
far greater than they know, is the sphere of women. But doubtless the question of such new sociology all
goes together, includes many varied and complex influences and premises, and the man as well as the
woman, and the woman as well as the man. 
"? --Walt Whitman, Democratic Vistas

The original VIDA Count, complete with appalling visuals - http://www.vidaweb.org/the-count

Please share,

Amy
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From jjeffreymail  Tue Mar  6 21:18:17 2012
From: jjeffreymail (John Jeffrey)
Date: Tue, 6 Mar 2012 18:18:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

I don't understand the hostility toward writing programs. Yes, most of the writers/poets that graduate from these programs fall somewhere between mediocre and good. Many may be miserable; others might even be very good. So what? Who cares if 5,000--or 50,000--"certified" poets are freshly minted each year??



And why shouldn't they do stupid assignments? And so what if these assignments don't produce good poems. I remember running scales on the guitar and the piano--those didn't create good songs. I remember my brother drawing train tracks and city streets to practice perspective, or painting balls and cones to practice shading--no good artwork there. Ever hear a singer practicing or watch a dancer do the same moves over and over? ?No art there.

All art demands practice--but it's not to create decent art then. It's for the sake of understanding their art, so they might--MIGHT--create something worthwhile later. And if they don't, so what? Some people just enjoy writing poems or painting or playing music. They don't have to be great.

Beside, poetry is not a zero-sum game. No art is. Crowds of mediocre poets do not somehow muscle out the number of good poets. The fact that the Osmonds existed did not affect Led Zepplin. Someone painting tigers on black velvet did not hurt Jackson Pollock. And some graduate of Yourtown Community College poetry program does not dimish the work of Donald Hall.

Finally, all programs, writing or otherwise, exist to make a profit. That's not a knock. It's just economics.

--JohnJ
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From bobgrumman  Wed Mar  7 06:55:22 2012
From: bobgrumman (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 06:55:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <054831B3E3CB4F3FAAEB80298E70C4F8@BobHP>



From: John Jeffrey 
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 9:18 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?

I don't understand the hostility toward writing programs. Yes, most of the writers/poets that graduate from these programs fall somewhere between mediocre and good. Many may be miserable; others might even be very good. So what? Who cares if 5,000--or 50,000--"certified" poets are freshly minted each year? 


And why shouldn't they do stupid assignments? And so what if these assignments don't produce good poems. I remember running scales on the guitar and the piano--those didn't create good songs. I remember my brother drawing train tracks and city streets to practice perspective, or painting balls and cones to practice shading--no good artwork there. Ever hear a singer practicing or watch a dancer do the same moves over and over?  No art there.

All art demands practice--but it's not to create decent art then. It's for the sake of understanding their art, so they might--MIGHT--create something worthwhile later. And if they don't, so what? Some people just enjoy writing poems or painting or playing music. They don't have to be great.

Beside, poetry is not a zero-sum game. No art is. Crowds of mediocre poets do not somehow muscle out the number of good poets. The fact that the Osmonds existed did not affect Led Zepplin. Someone painting tigers on black velvet did not hurt Jackson Pollock. And some graduate of Yourtown Community College poetry program does not diminish the work of Donald Hall.

Finally, all programs, writing or otherwise, exist to make a profit. That's not a knock. It's just economics.

--JohnJ

What do we do with 50,000 mediocre poets, John?  There are niches in society for fifty thousand mediocre engineers, but where are they for the same number of mediocre poets?  I am, of course, speaking of poetry as a vocation, not as a hobby. 

I wish, too, you would explain why poetry (as a serious vocation) is not, like everything I know of, a zero-sum game.  Sure, no poet can be kept from composing poems by crowds of other poets.  But the zero-sum game comes into effect for poets who want to be read.  Or heard.  Take a simple one-evening poetry reading: if five hundred poets want to read at it, and can fit into the space set aside for the reading, some have to be losers?unless you have them all read at once, in which case they?ll all be partial losers because all will be heard but none properly heard. 

--Bob 


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From jjeffreymail  Wed Mar  7 08:50:26 2012
From: jjeffreymail (John Jeffrey)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 05:50:26 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <054831B3E3CB4F3FAAEB80298E70C4F8@BobHP>
References: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<054831B3E3CB4F3FAAEB80298E70C4F8@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1331128226.92677.YahooMailNeo@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

We don't do anything with them.? They do (or try) what they can.? The market bears what the market bears.? Take the 50,000 engineers, in the end, most of the the top jobs will go to the top engineers.? Sure, some top jobs will go to mediocre engineers, where they will probably prove that they are mediocre engineers.? In time. the mediocre engineers will do smaller, less demanding jobs within a larger project, where their mediocrity is not a problem.

For poets, the mediocre poets will publish and sell like hot cakes, nor publish and not sell, or self-publish and give away copies, or not publish at all, or turn to writing ad copy.? So what?? How is that going to affect either a good (and living at the time) poet laden with awards and publishing credits (say, Longfellow or Hall) or a great (though recognized after death) poet writing in obscurity (say, Dickinson or...um...Grumman)?


I can't think of a artistic or commercial activity that is a true zero-sum game.? Certainly not poetry, since there's no poetry market for it.? If only 20 poets can read at a reading due to time constraints but there are 500 poets who want to read, someone should start another poetry reading or two or ten.? I don't see how that's a problem.? If that particular reading has a certain prestige and that's why a poet "just has to read there and only there or I'll die I'll just die" then.. bummer.? Arrive earlier and sign up.? Write better.? Befriend the host.? Start a new one and build prestige.? It's not because they've taken away a few chairs and we poets are circling around the remaining chairs and the music is just about to stop and only 5 of us can find seats for our butts and--? OMG!? The music stopped!


--JohnJ


------------------------------------


What do we do with 50,000 mediocre poets, John?? There 
are niches in society for fifty thousand mediocre engineers, but where are they 
for the same number of mediocre poets?? I am, of course, speaking of poetry 
as a vocation, not as a hobby. 
I wish, too, you would explain why poetry (as a serious 
vocation) is not, like everything I know of, a zero-sum game.? Sure, no 
poet can be kept from composing poems by crowds of other poets.? But the 
zero-sum game comes into effect for poets who want to be read.? Or 
heard.? Take a simple one-evening poetry reading: if five hundred poets 
want to read at it, and can fit into the space set aside for the reading, some 
have to be losers?unless you have them all read at once, in which case they?ll 
all be partial losers because all will be heard but none properly heard.
 
--Bob
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From jjeffreymail  Wed Mar  7 09:06:39 2012
From: jjeffreymail (John Jeffrey)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 06:06:39 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <1331128226.92677.YahooMailNeo@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<054831B3E3CB4F3FAAEB80298E70C4F8@BobHP>
	<1331128226.92677.YahooMailNeo@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1331129199.3864.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

By the way, this made me laugh: "I am, of course, speaking of poetry 
as a vocation, not as a hobby."

Poetry as a vocation.? Good one.
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From bobgrumman  Wed Mar  7 09:31:43 2012
From: bobgrumman (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 09:31:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <1331128226.92677.YahooMailNeo@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yah
	oo.com><054831B3E3CB4F3FAAEB80298E70C4F8@BobHP>
	<1331128226.92677.YahooMailNeo@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5578B547DC6548A9BC9633054F6E84E7@BobHP>

We don't do anything with them.  They do (or try) what they can.  The market bears what the market bears.  Take the 50,000 engineers, in the end, most of the the top jobs will go to the top engineers.  Sure, some top jobs will go to mediocre engineers, where they will probably prove that they are mediocre engineers.  In time. the mediocre engineers will do smaller, less demanding jobs within a larger project, where their mediocrity is not a problem.

Most of the engineers will get engineering jobs, however mediocre they are.  Very few of the poets will get poetry jobs, however good they are..

For poets, the mediocre poets will publish and sell like hot cakes, nor publish and not sell, or self-publish and give away copies, or not publish at all, or turn to writing ad copy.  So what?  How is that going to affect either a good (and living at the time) poet laden with awards and publishing credits (say, Longfellow or Hall) or a great (though recognized after death) poet writing in obscurity (say, Dickinson or...um...Grumman)?

The mediocre poets who sell like hotcakes will reduce money available for other poets.  

I can't think of a artistic or commercial activity that is a true zero-sum game.  Certainly not poetry, since there's no poetry market for it.  If only 20 poets can read at a reading due to time constraints but there are 500 poets who want to read, someone should start another poetry reading or two or ten.  I don't see how that's a problem.  If that particular reading has a certain prestige and that's why a poet "just has to read there and only there or I'll die I'll just die" then.. bummer.  Arrive earlier and sign up.  Write better.  Befriend the host.  Start a new one and build prestige.  It's not because they've taken away a few chairs and we poets are circling around the remaining chairs and the music is just about to stop and only 5 of us can find seats for our butts and--  OMG!  The music stopped!

Right?compete, and take away a slot from some other poet.  And dream that there are infinite slots available to you in your infinitely long life as a poet.


Either you or I has no idea what a zero sum game is, John.  Or the difference between a vocation and a hobby.  Just because almost no one will pay money for my poetry, and very few will even pay it a few moments of attention does not make poetry a hobby for me.

--Bob

 


------------------------------------


What do we do with 50,000 mediocre poets, John?  There are niches in society for fifty thousand mediocre engineers, but where are they for the same number of mediocre poets?  I am, of course, speaking of poetry as a vocation, not as a hobby. 
I wish, too, you would explain why poetry (as a serious vocation) is not, like everything I know of, a zero-sum game.  Sure, no poet can be kept from composing poems by crowds of other poets.  But the zero-sum game comes into effect for poets who want to be read.  Or heard.  Take a simple one-evening poetry reading: if five hundred poets want to read at it, and can fit into the space set aside for the reading, some have to be losers?unless you have them all read at once, in which case they?ll all be partial losers because all will be heard but none properly heard.


--Bob




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From jjeffreymail  Wed Mar  7 10:34:24 2012
From: jjeffreymail (John Jeffrey)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 07:34:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <5578B547DC6548A9BC9633054F6E84E7@BobHP>
References: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yah
	oo.com><054831B3E3CB4F3FAAEB80298E70C4F8@BobHP>
	<1331128226.92677.YahooMailNeo@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<5578B547DC6548A9BC9633054F6E84E7@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1331134464.57951.YahooMailNeo@web120504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>



???? The mediocre poets who sell like hotcakes will reduce 
money available for other poets.

I disagree.? If someone is interested in poetry and buys poetry books, then they will buy poetry books.? Whether the author of these books views poetry as a vocation or a hobby doesn't change anything.? It's the poems that matter, not the author's feelings.? Also, if Billy Collins and Mary Oliver didn't publish, that wouldn't automatically translate 
into people buying other, different books of poetry.? It's not like people have a quota of books to buy or read and no more.? If they buy poetry, then 
they'll buy poetry--but usually only in the style they like.? Perhaps someday their reading (or some other impetus) will lead them to try other styles, and maybe they'll like them or maybe they won't, but it's not because Billy Collins sells some books.


To use a music analogy, since music does sell, Britney Spears, Lady Gaga, Katie Perry, Taylor Swift, they sells millions of CDs.? Yey if they never came along, that would not increase the sales of opera or jazz or even of alternative styles of pop music.? People listen to and buy what they like.? One could even argue that the existence of Spears (and of those who led to her) helped the sales of similar singers who came next.? One could argue further that Britney-buying teens will grow up and someday buy a wider, deeper range of music, increasing the sales of others, as well, since that early introduction to music--even bubble-gum--set in place a lifelong love.? Hell, I once bought a Grass Roots album back in the day.

--JohnJ




>________________________________
> From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
>Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 9:31 AM
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
> 
>
>We don't do anything with them.? They do (or try) what they 
can.? The market bears what the market bears.? Take the 50,000 
engineers, in the end, most of the the top jobs will go to the top 
engineers.? Sure, some top jobs will go to mediocre engineers, where they 
will probably prove that they are mediocre engineers.? In time. the 
mediocre engineers will do smaller, less demanding jobs within a larger project, 
where their mediocrity is not a problem. 
>?
>Most of the engineers will get engineering jobs, however 
mediocre they are.? Very few of the poets will get poetry jobs, however 
good they are..
>?
>For poets, the mediocre poets will publish and sell like 
hot cakes, nor publish and not sell, or self-publish and give away copies, or 
not publish at all, or turn to writing ad copy.? So what?? How is that 
going to affect either a good (and living at the time) poet laden with awards 
and publishing credits (say, Longfellow or Hall) or a great (though recognized 
after death) poet writing in obscurity (say, Dickinson 
or...um...Grumman)?
>?
>The mediocre poets who sell like hotcakes will reduce 
money available for other poets.? 
>?
>I can't think of a artistic or commercial activity that is a true 
zero-sum game.? Certainly not poetry, since there's no poetry market for 
it.? If only 20 poets can read at a reading due to time constraints but 
there are 500 poets who want to read, someone should start another poetry 
reading or two or ten.? I don't see how that's a problem.? If that 
particular reading has a certain prestige and that's why a poet "just has to 
read there and only there or I'll die I'll just die" then.. bummer.? Arrive 
earlier and sign up.? Write better.? Befriend the host.? Start a 
new one and build prestige.? It's not because they've taken away a few 
chairs and we poets are circling around the remaining chairs and the music is 
just about to stop and only 5 of us can find seats for our butts and--? OMG!? The music stopped!
>?
>Right?compete, and take away a slot from some other 
poet.? And dream that there are infinite slots available to you in your 
infinitely long life as a poet.
> 
>Either you or I has no idea what a zero 
sum game is, John.? Or the difference between a vocation and a hobby.? 
Just because almost no one will pay money for my poetry, and very few will even 
pay it a few moments of attention does not make poetry a hobby for 
me.
>?
>--Bob
>
>?
>
>
>------------------------------------
>
>
>What do we do with 50,000 mediocre poets, John?? There are 
niches in society for fifty thousand mediocre engineers, but where are they for 
the same number of mediocre poets?? I am, of course, speaking of poetry as 
a vocation, not as a hobby. 
>I wish, too, you would explain why poetry (as a serious vocation) is 
not, like everything I know of, a zero-sum game.? Sure, no poet can be kept 
from composing poems by crowds of other poets.? But the zero-sum game comes 
into effect for poets who want to be read.? Or heard.? Take a simple 
one-evening poetry reading: if five hundred poets want to read at it, and can 
fit into the space set aside for the reading, some have to be losers?unless you 
have them all read at once, in which case they?ll all be partial losers because 
all will be heard but none properly heard.
>
>
>--Bob
>?
>?
>________________________________
> _______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing 
list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
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From bobgrumman  Wed Mar  7 10:54:27 2012
From: bobgrumman (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 10:54:27 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <1331134464.57951.YahooMailNeo@web120504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yah
	oo.com><054831B3E3CB4F3FAAEB80298E70C4F8@BobHP><1331128226.92677.YahooMailNeo@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><5578B547DC6548A9BC9
	633054F6E84E7@BobHP>
	<1331134464.57951.YahooMailNeo@web120504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4CED690948824611B641BD3AFE4818A2@BobHP>



From: John Jeffrey 
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 10:34 AM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?



     The mediocre poets who sell like hotcakes will reduce money available for other poets.


I disagree.  If someone is interested in poetry and buys poetry books, then they will buy poetry books.

John, there is only so much money available for poetry books.  If it?s used for books A, B, C, etc., it?s not available for A, B, C, etc.  The authors of the first group win, the authors of the second group lose.  That?s what the zero sum game is.  Winners and losers.  I really can?t understand how you (and Chris) are unable to see that.

--Bob
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From halvard  Wed Mar  7 11:12:44 2012
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 10:12:44 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <054831B3E3CB4F3FAAEB80298E70C4F8@BobHP>
References: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<054831B3E3CB4F3FAAEB80298E70C4F8@BobHP>
Message-ID: <CANrCfqEwAsJtSofbymu=Qies1fG5+OLGqVpFzs0xtfMKf0pc9Q@mail.gmail.com>

50,000 mediocre poets might be 50,000 better than average
readers of poetry.


Serving the tri-state area.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com

On Barcelona <http://onbarcelona.blogspot.com/> (submissions sought; email
to my address above)
Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
Remains To Be Seen <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>*, Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. II) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>,** Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. III) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Sonnets
from the Basque & Other Poems <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>
*, *Mainly Black <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Obras
P?blicas <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **The Perfection
of Mozart's Third Eye and Other
Sonnets<http://www.scribd.com/doc/27039868/Halvard-Johnson-THE-PERFECTION-OF-MOZART-S-THIRD-EYE-Other-Sonnets>
; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of
Clones<http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Entrance-Clones-Halvard-Johnson/dp/0965404390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283182804&sr=8-1>
; **Tango Bouquet <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **Theory
of Harmony<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall04/theory1.pdf>
; **Rapsodie espagnole<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/rapsodi.pdf>
; **Guide to the Tokyo
Subway<http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Tokyo-Subway-Other-Poems/dp/0971487316/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283183153&sr=1-3>
; **The Sonnet Project<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/hsonnet.pdf>
; **G(e)nome <http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall03/genome.pdf>; **Winter
Journey <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.winter.html>;
**Eclipse<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.eclipse.html>
; **The Dance of the Red Swan <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.dance.html>
; **Transparencies & Projections<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.transp.html>
*




On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:55 AM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:

>
>
>  *From:* John Jeffrey <jjeffreymail at yahoo.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 06, 2012 9:18 PM
> *To:* NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
>
>  I don't understand the hostility toward writing programs. Yes, most of
> the writers/poets that graduate from these programs fall somewhere between
> mediocre and good. Many may be miserable; others might even be very good.
> So what? Who cares if 5,000--or 50,000--"certified" poets are freshly
> minted each year?
>
> And why shouldn't they do stupid assignments? And so what if these
> assignments don't produce good poems. I remember running scales on the
> guitar and the piano--those didn't create good songs. I remember my brother
> drawing train tracks and city streets to practice perspective, or painting
> balls and cones to practice shading--no good artwork there. Ever hear a
> singer practicing or watch a dancer do the same moves over and over?  No
> art there.
>
> All art demands practice--but it's not to create decent art then. It's
> for the sake of understanding their art, so they might--MIGHT--create
> something worthwhile later. And if they don't, so what? Some people just
> enjoy writing poems or painting or playing music. They don't have to be
> great.
>
> Beside, poetry is not a zero-sum game. No art is. Crowds of mediocre poets
> do not somehow muscle out the number of good poets. The fact that the
> Osmonds existed did not affect Led Zepplin. Someone painting tigers on
> black velvet did not hurt Jackson Pollock. And some graduate of Yourtown
> Community College poetry program does not diminish the work of Donald Hall.
>
> Finally, all programs, writing or otherwise, exist to make a profit.
> That's not a knock. It's just economics.
>
> --JohnJ
>
>
> What do we do with 50,000 mediocre poets, John?  There are niches in
> society for fifty thousand mediocre engineers, but where are they for the
> same number of mediocre poets?  I am, of course, speaking of poetry as a
> vocation, not as a hobby.
>
> I wish, too, you would explain why poetry (as a serious vocation) is not,
> like everything I know of, a zero-sum game.  Sure, no poet can be kept from
> composing poems by crowds of other poets.  But the zero-sum game comes into
> effect for poets who want to be read.  Or heard.  Take a simple one-evening
> poetry reading: if five hundred poets want to read at it, and can fit into
> the space set aside for the reading, some have to be losers?unless you have
> them all read at once, in which case they?ll all be partial losers because
> all will be heard but none properly heard.
>
> --Bob
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From jjeffreymail  Wed Mar  7 11:32:47 2012
From: jjeffreymail (John Jeffrey)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 08:32:47 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <4CED690948824611B641BD3AFE4818A2@BobHP>
References: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yah
	oo.com><054831B3E3CB4F3FAAEB80298E70C4F8@BobHP><1331128226.92677.YahooMailNeo@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><5578B547DC6548A9BC9
	633054F6E84E7@BobHP>
	<1331134464.57951.YahooMailNeo@web120504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<4CED690948824611B641BD3AFE4818A2@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1331137967.33892.YahooMailNeo@web120506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

So how much money is there?? And if there is only "so much money available for poetry," then wouldn't the number of poetry books sold each year be near a constant?? (Unless there's a huge cache of poetry money out there just waiting for the next big thing.)


Books by A,B,C will sell if people like their style.? And books by D,E,F will sell if people like their style.? If people don't, then they won't sell or be read.? If people really like A,B,C and want more, then they may look for others that write like A,B,C.? Maybe some find L and others find P.? A few more like only a certain type of poem in the A.B.C books and they will find W, who writes those types of poems.? And W then leads them to X,Y,Z.


Yet maybe D never sells because no one likes it or doesn't understand it or has never heard of it.? Maybe E sells a few copies because it's difficult and there's a smaller audience for difficult poetry.? Maybe F sells but only after the readers grow bored of A,B,C.

Whatever the reasons are, it's not because there's a finite amount of money.? And without a finite, there's no zero-sum.


--JohnJ





>________________________________
> From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
>Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 10:54 AM
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
> 
>
>?
>From: John Jeffrey 
>Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 10:34 AM
>To: NewPoetry List 
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
>? 
>
>???? The 
mediocre poets who sell like hotcakes will reduce money available for other 
poets.
>
>?I disagree.? If someone is interested in poetry and buys 
poetry books, then they will buy poetry books.
>?
>John, there is only so much money available for poetry books.? If 
it?s used for books A, B, C, etc., it?s not available for A, B, C, etc.? 
The authors of the first group win, the authors of the second group lose.? 
That?s what the zero sum game is.? Winners and losers.? I really can?t 
understand how you (and Chris) are unable to see that.
>?
>--Bob
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
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From jeff.newberry  Wed Mar  7 11:58:10 2012
From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 11:58:10 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <4CED690948824611B641BD3AFE4818A2@BobHP>
References: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<054831B3E3CB4F3FAAEB80298E70C4F8@BobHP>
	<1331128226.92677.YahooMailNeo@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<1331134464.57951.YahooMailNeo@web120504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<4CED690948824611B641BD3AFE4818A2@BobHP>
Message-ID: <CAM1hWpf-Cm7VVO_9z6=+XR2DAt22McF8Gg4Q69EbZoirxAnYSQ@mail.gmail.com>

Well, when you boil everything down to a measurable, monetary value, you
get the kind of thinking that you cling to and (oddly) defend.

If you wanted to make money, writing poetry was the wrong game, my friend.
There are easier ways.

--Jeff Newberry

On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 10:54 AM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:

>
>
>  *From:* John Jeffrey <jjeffreymail at yahoo.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 07, 2012 10:34 AM
> *To:* NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
>
>
>      The mediocre poets who sell like hotcakes will reduce money
> available for other poets.
>
> I disagree.  If someone is interested in poetry and buys poetry books,
> then they will buy poetry books.
>
> John, there is only so much money available for poetry books.  If it?s
> used for books A, B, C, etc., it?s not available for A, B, C, etc.  The
> authors of the first group win, the authors of the second group lose.
> That?s what the zero sum game is.  Winners and losers.  I really can?t
> understand how you (and Chris) are unable to see that.
>
> --Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics
embodied in language?s natural music.  It isn?t a gush, but a felt and
lived syncopation.  ?Yusef Komunyakaa
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From theoldmole  Wed Mar  7 12:47:32 2012
From: theoldmole (Tad Richards)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 12:47:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CAAy7y5QmcAub6iEGnOY_m62Bu7KD+_OnDBL+EZQhySsc8ih2Kg@mail.gmail.com>

Assignments are just that -- exercises to jolt the student out of his/her
established mind set, and to focus on process.

When I teach an undergraduate workshop, I don't assume I am grooming a new
generation of poets. I assume that I'm teaching a literature course, with
the goal of giving my students and understanding and appreciation of
literature from a different perspective.

If some of them go on to seriously pursue writing, I hope I've given them a
start.

And isn't "McPoem" exactly the kind of cheap verbal shortcut Hall is
decrying?

And we are talking about Hall, right? Not Hal?

On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 9:18 PM, John Jeffrey <jjeffreymail at yahoo.com> wrote:

> I don't understand the hostility toward writing programs. Yes, most of the
> writers/poets that graduate from these programs fall somewhere between
> mediocre and good. Many may be miserable; others might even be very good.
> So what? Who cares if 5,000--or 50,000--"certified" poets are freshly
> minted each year?
>
> And why shouldn't they do stupid assignments? And so what if these
> assignments don't produce good poems. I remember running scales on the
> guitar and the piano--those didn't create good songs. I remember my brother
> drawing train tracks and city streets to practice perspective, or painting
> balls and cones to practice shading--no good artwork there. Ever hear a
> singer practicing or watch a dancer do the same moves over and over?  No
> art there.
>
> All art demands practice--but it's not to create decent art then. It's
> for the sake of understanding their art, so they might--MIGHT--create
> something worthwhile later. And if they don't, so what? Some people just
> enjoy writing poems or painting or playing music. They don't have to be
> great.
>
> Beside, poetry is not a zero-sum game. No art is. Crowds of mediocre poets
> do not somehow muscle out the number of good poets. The fact that the
> Osmonds existed did not affect Led Zepplin. Someone painting tigers on
> black velvet did not hurt Jackson Pollock. And some graduate of Yourtown
> Community College poetry program does not dimish the work of Donald Hall.
>
> Finally, all programs, writing or otherwise, exist to make a profit.
> That's not a knock. It's just economics.
>
> --JohnJ
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From GrahamD  Wed Mar  7 13:02:00 2012
From: GrahamD (David Graham)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 12:02:00 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <CAAy7y5QmcAub6iEGnOY_m62Bu7KD+_OnDBL+EZQhySsc8ih2Kg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CB7CFEB8.7868%GrahamD@ripon.edu>

Amen to all Tad says.

Couple further thoughts.

I?ve had problems with Hall?s unfortunately memorable framing of this issue
since it was first published, for the reasons Tad notes and others.  At his
best Hall is a much sharper critic than this.

But where I agree wholeheartedly with Hall is about what healthy ambition in
a poet is, and his consistent emphasis on taking the long view.  My role
models and deepest inspirations are not the Dickman twins; not even Adrienne
Rich and Galway Kinnell.  I really don?t care who?s stock is currently
selling high or low.  Like Hall, I want to measure myself (however dismaying
it may be) against Shakespeare, Milton, Herrick, Blake, Keats, Dickinson,
Whitman, Frost, Stevens, Williams, et al.

At the AWP conference recently, a couple fellow poets of my acquaintance
criticized other poets with some variation of ?he/she hasn?t read anything
before 1980.?  That?s deadly, I think, and all-too common in the current
scene, along with an unhealthy focus on who?s in or out, whose face is on
the APR cover and so forth.

All of us write our share of McPoems, just as all the poets of 1910 or 1790
did.  Ho hum.  Ultimately it has little to do with MFA programs, I believe,
which have increased the number of poets, perhaps, but not the proportion of
wheat and chaff.  There is always a period style that is hard to look
beyond.  And that?s the reason we still read Milton and Shakespeare?in hope
of putting a toe or two occasionally outside the period style.


On 3/7/12 11:47 AM, "Tad Richards" <theoldmole at gmail.com> wrote:

> Assignments are just that -- exercises to jolt the student out of his/her
> established mind set, and to focus on process.
> 
> When I teach an undergraduate workshop, I don't assume I am grooming a new
> generation of poets. I assume that I'm teaching a literature course, with the
> goal of giving my students and understanding and appreciation of literature
> from a different perspective.
> 
> If some of them go on to seriously pursue writing, I hope I've given them a
> start.
> 
> And isn't "McPoem" exactly the kind of cheap verbal shortcut Hall is decrying?
> 
> And we are talking about Hall, right? Not Hal?
> 
> On Tue, Mar 6, 2012 at 9:18 PM, John Jeffrey <jjeffreymail at yahoo.com> wrote:
>> I don't understand the hostility toward writing programs. Yes, most of the
>> writers/poets that graduate from these programs fall somewhere between
>> mediocre and good. Many may be miserable; others might even be very good. So
>> what? Who cares if 5,000--or 50,000--"certified" poets are freshly minted
>> each year??
>> 
>> And why shouldn't they do stupid assignments? And so what if these
>> assignments don't produce good poems. I remember running scales on the guitar
>> and the piano--those didn't create good songs. I remember my brother drawing
>> train tracks and city streets to practice perspective, or painting balls and
>> cones to practice shading--no good artwork there. Ever hear a singer
>> practicing or watch a dancer do the same moves over and over? ?No art there.
>> 
>> All art demands practice--but it's not to create decent art then. It's for
>> the sake of understanding their art, so they might--MIGHT--create something
>> worthwhile later. And if they don't, so what? Some people just enjoy writing
>> poems or painting or playing music. They don't have to be great.
>> 
>> Beside, poetry is not a zero-sum game. No art is. Crowds of mediocre poets do
>> not somehow muscle out the number of good poets. The fact that the Osmonds
>> existed did not affect Led Zepplin. Someone painting tigers on black velvet
>> did not hurt Jackson Pollock. And some graduate of Yourtown Community College
>> poetry program does not dimish the work of Donald Hall.
>> 
>> Finally, all programs, writing or otherwise, exist to make a profit. That's
>> not a knock. It's just economics.
>> 
>> --JohnJ
>> 
>>    
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-- 

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz

Poetry Library:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================


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From bobgrumman  Wed Mar  7 13:54:12 2012
From: bobgrumman (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 13:54:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <CANrCfqEwAsJtSofbymu=Qies1fG5+OLGqVpFzs0xtfMKf0pc9Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yah
	oo.com><054831B3E3CB4F3FAAEB80298E70C4F8@BobHP>
	<CANrCfqEwAsJtSofbymu=Qies1fG5+OLGqVpFzs0xtfMKf0pc9Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <C4B7103DD3894CEF9E630F6BDADAF181@BobHP>



From: Halvard Johnson 
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 11:12 AM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?

50,000 mediocre poets might be 50,000 better than average 
readers of poetry.

Absolutely.  (Depending a bit on the workshop.)  Which is an excellent reason for workshops in poetry.  I?d say more but I can?t remember what my point was, or points were.

--Bob


    


Serving the tri-state area.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com


On Barcelona (submissions sought; email to my address above)
Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/



Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections






On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:55 AM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:



  From: John Jeffrey 
  Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 9:18 PM
  To: NewPoetry List 
  Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?

  I don't understand the hostility toward writing programs. Yes, most of the writers/poets that graduate from these programs fall somewhere between mediocre and good. Many may be miserable; others might even be very good. So what? Who cares if 5,000--or 50,000--"certified" poets are freshly minted each year? 


  And why shouldn't they do stupid assignments? And so what if these assignments don't produce good poems. I remember running scales on the guitar and the piano--those didn't create good songs. I remember my brother drawing train tracks and city streets to practice perspective, or painting balls and cones to practice shading--no good artwork there. Ever hear a singer practicing or watch a dancer do the same moves over and over?  No art there.

  All art demands practice--but it's not to create decent art then. It's for the sake of understanding their art, so they might--MIGHT--create something worthwhile later. And if they don't, so what? Some people just enjoy writing poems or painting or playing music. They don't have to be great.

  Beside, poetry is not a zero-sum game. No art is. Crowds of mediocre poets do not somehow muscle out the number of good poets. The fact that the Osmonds existed did not affect Led Zepplin. Someone painting tigers on black velvet did not hurt Jackson Pollock. And some graduate of Yourtown Community College poetry program does not diminish the work of Donald Hall.

  Finally, all programs, writing or otherwise, exist to make a profit. That's not a knock. It's just economics.

  --JohnJ

  What do we do with 50,000 mediocre poets, John?  There are niches in society for fifty thousand mediocre engineers, but where are they for the same number of mediocre poets?  I am, of course, speaking of poetry as a vocation, not as a hobby. 

  I wish, too, you would explain why poetry (as a serious vocation) is not, like everything I know of, a zero-sum game.  Sure, no poet can be kept from composing poems by crowds of other poets.  But the zero-sum game comes into effect for poets who want to be read.  Or heard.  Take a simple one-evening poetry reading: if five hundred poets want to read at it, and can fit into the space set aside for the reading, some have to be losers?unless you have them all read at once, in which case they?ll all be partial losers because all will be heard but none properly heard. 

  --Bob 




  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From bobgrumman  Wed Mar  7 14:08:09 2012
From: bobgrumman (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 14:08:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <1331137967.33892.YahooMailNeo@web120506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yah
	oo.com><054831B3E3CB4F3FAAEB80298E70C4F8@BobHP><1331128226.92677.YahooMailNeo@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><5578B547DC6548A9BC9
	633054F6E84E7@BobHP><1331134464.57951.YahooMailNeo@web120504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><4CED690948824611B641BD3AFE4818A2@BobHP>
	<1331137967.33892.YahooMailNeo@web120506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <C30E8470F7CE4AF29131F5ED4977F2E3@BobHP>



From: John Jeffrey 
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 11:32 AM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?

So how much money is there?  And if there is only "so much money available for poetry," then wouldn't the number of poetry books sold each year be near a constant?  (Unless there's a huge cache of poetry money out there just waiting for the next big thing.)



Books by A,B,C will sell if people like their style.  And books by D,E,F will sell if people like their style.  If people don't, then they won't sell or be read.  If people really like A,B,C and want more, then they may look for others that write like A,B,C.  Maybe some find L and others find P.  A few more like only a certain type of poem in the A.B.C books and they will find W, who writes those types of poems.  And W then leads them to X,Y,Z.



Yet maybe D never sells because no one likes it or doesn't understand it or has never heard of it.  Maybe E sells a few copies because it's difficult and there's a smaller audience for difficult poetry.  Maybe F sells but only after the readers grow bored of A,B,C.


Whatever the reasons are, it's not because there's a finite amount of money.  And without a finite, there's no zero-sum.



--JohnJ

At any given moment, there?s only so much money available.  Or (Jeff) so many available appreciators or venues or whatever the sum relevant to a given poet is.  From moment to moment, whatever the sum consists of changes, often into a zero sum game with more participants, such as from poetry into all books, or all arts, or?eventually?into all human concerns. But the point is that on a given night, at a given venue for a poetry reading, it?s a zero sum game in some way.  If the poets involved are lucky, they will have won a zero sum game with some movie theatre by drawing enough people to hear them to make the occasion worthwhile to them, and not had a significant zero sum game among themselves.  The process can be complicated, but always must involve a zero sum game.  Every breath of air you take results in something?s losing a zero sum game. 

--Bob 
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From bobgrumman  Wed Mar  7 14:15:38 2012
From: bobgrumman (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 14:15:38 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <CB7CFEB8.7868%GrahamD@ripon.edu>
References: <CB7CFEB8.7868%GrahamD@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <07FB5C1EF2824F35A86F068B0DA4088D@BobHP>

Re: McPoem ... so what?

From: David Graham 
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 1:02 PM
To: NewPoetry 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?

Amen to all Tad says.

Couple further thoughts.

I?ve had problems with Hall?s unfortunately memorable framing of this issue since it was first published, for the reasons Tad notes and others.  At his best Hall is a much sharper critic than this.

But where I agree wholeheartedly with Hall is about what healthy ambition in a poet is, and his consistent emphasis on taking the long view.  My role models and deepest inspirations are not the Dickman twins; not even Adrienne Rich and Galway Kinnell.  I really don?t care who?s stock is currently selling high or low.  Like Hall, I want to measure myself (however dismaying it may be) against Shakespeare, Milton, Herrick, Blake, Keats, Dickinson, Whitman, Frost, Stevens, Williams, et al.  
Also against at least a few contemporaries, as I believe you do, David.  Although it will always be more difficult because you won?t have had time to absorb them as well as you?ve absorbed the ones you?ve grown up with.


At the AWP conference recently, a couple fellow poets of my acquaintance criticized other poets with some variation of ?he/she hasn?t read anything before 1980.?  That?s deadly, I think, and all-too common in the current scene, along with an unhealthy focus on who?s in or out, whose face is on the APR cover and so forth.  
But no one says what should be said (sorry for the repetition?or I would be, if anyone heeded it), which is that a given poet hasn?t read anything about poetry written beyond the knowledge of poetry in 1980.
All of us write our share of McPoems, just as all the poets of 1910 or 1790 did.  Ho hum.  Ultimately it has little to do with MFA programs, I believe, which have increased the number of poets, perhaps, but not the proportion of wheat and chaff. There is always a period style that is hard to look beyond.  And that?s the reason we still read Milton and Shakespeare?in hope of putting a toe or two occasionally outside the period style.

Not only do we write them, but some of them are good!
--Bob
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From bobgrumman  Wed Mar  7 14:23:09 2012
From: bobgrumman (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 14:23:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets House Announcement
In-Reply-To: <1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <A122647F37134903912D29BD8EB6A6C5@BobHP>


For once Poets House has something I?d go to if I were in New York: a presentation by Haruo Shirane on Basho, 15 March at 7 P.M.

--Bob
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From poet_in_hell_files  Wed Mar  7 14:54:22 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 11:54:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <1331129199.3864.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1331150062.97460.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

how 'bout?a vacation rather than vocation. 
there so-called reality, and the much needed vacation. 

--- On Wed, 3/7/12, John Jeffrey <jjeffreymail at yahoo.com> wrote:


From: John Jeffrey <jjeffreymail at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Wednesday, March 7, 2012, 9:06 AM





By the way, this made me laugh: " I am, of course, speaking of poetry as a vocation, not as a hobby."


Poetry as a vocation.? Good one.




-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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From poet_in_hell_files  Wed Mar  7 15:11:24 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 12:11:24 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
Message-ID: <1331151084.13860.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>






Bank Robbery is easier.??It's a dying profession, and a dying vocation, but I do know someone who pulled off 2 successful, unarmed bank robberies. You need a good note, and?a serious pocker face. From what I'm told, time in the Feds for nonviolent criminals can be rather soft. My buddy, because he had a clean record, only did a few years when he was caught. 

The number of poets who can afford a cheap apartment or a decent room simply?from the sales of their poetry can probably be counted on the fingers. Lyn Lifshin, perhaps ... but how many others. & Lifshin (sp?)?has over a hundred titles. 
--- On Wed, 3/7/12, Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Wednesday, March 7, 2012, 11:58 AM


Well, when you boil everything down to a measurable, monetary value, you get the kind of thinking that you cling to and (oddly) defend. 


If you wanted to make money, writing poetry was the wrong game, my friend. There are easier ways.


--Jeff Newberry


On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 10:54 AM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:





?


?

From: John Jeffrey 
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 10:34 AM
To: NewPoetry List 

Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
?





???? The mediocre poets who sell like hotcakes will reduce money available for other poets.

?I disagree.? If someone is interested in poetry and buys poetry books, then they will buy poetry books.
?
John, there is only so much money available for poetry books.? If it?s used for books A, B, C, etc., it?s not available for A, B, C, etc.? The authors of the first group win, the authors of the second group lose.? That?s what the zero sum game is.? Winners and losers.? I really can?t understand how you (and Chris) are unable to see that.
?
--Bob
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





-- 
Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics embodied in language?s natural music.? It isn?t a gush, but a felt and lived syncopation.? ?Yusef Komunyakaa

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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From poet_in_hell_files  Wed Mar  7 15:13:55 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 12:13:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <1331151084.13860.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1331151235.52945.YahooMailClassic@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

in other words, it's best to have a few other profitable skills aside from poetry. & if crime happens to be that skill ...

--- On Wed, 3/7/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:


From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Wednesday, March 7, 2012, 3:11 PM












Bank Robbery is easier.??It's a dying profession, and a dying vocation, but I do know someone who pulled off 2 successful, unarmed bank robberies. You need a good note, and?a serious pocker face. From what I'm told, time in the Feds for nonviolent criminals can be rather soft. My buddy, because he had a clean record, only did a few years when he was caught. 

The number of poets who can afford a cheap apartment or a decent room simply?from the sales of their poetry can probably be counted on the fingers. Lyn Lifshin, perhaps ... but how many others. & Lifshin (sp?)?has over a hundred titles. 
--- On Wed, 3/7/12, Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com> wrote:


From: Jeff Newberry <jeff.newberry at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Wednesday, March 7, 2012, 11:58 AM


Well, when you boil everything down to a measurable, monetary value, you get the kind of thinking that you cling to and (oddly) defend. 


If you wanted to make money, writing poetry was the wrong game, my friend. There are easier ways.


--Jeff Newberry


On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 10:54 AM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:





?


?

From: John Jeffrey 
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 10:34 AM
To: NewPoetry List 

Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
?





???? The mediocre poets who sell like hotcakes will reduce money available for other poets.

?I disagree.? If someone is interested in poetry and buys poetry books, then they will buy poetry books.
?
John, there is only so much money available for poetry books.? If it?s used for books A, B, C, etc., it?s not available for A, B, C, etc.? The authors of the first group win, the authors of the second group lose.? That?s what the zero sum game is.? Winners and losers.? I really can?t understand how you (and Chris) are unable to see that.
?
--Bob
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





-- 
Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics embodied in language?s natural music.? It isn?t a gush, but a felt and lived syncopation.? ?Yusef Komunyakaa

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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From poet_in_hell_files  Wed Mar  7 15:24:33 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 12:24:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets House Announcement
In-Reply-To: <A122647F37134903912D29BD8EB6A6C5@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1331151873.3761.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Much of life (perhaps most)?includes the clause if I were in New York.
If I could afford New York, I'd be in New York. 
Therefore, much of life (perhaps most)?includes daydreaming. 
?


--- On Wed, 3/7/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets House Announcement
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Wednesday, March 7, 2012, 2:23 PM







?
For once Poets House has something I?d go to if I were in New York: a presentation by Haruo Shirane on Basho, 15 March at 7 P.M.
?
--Bob

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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From poet_in_hell_files  Wed Mar  7 15:28:34 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 12:28:34 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets House Announcement
In-Reply-To: <1331151873.3761.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1331152114.56006.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Maxim:
?
?





Much of life (perhaps most)?includes the clause if I were in New York.
Therefore, much of life (perhaps most)?includes daydreaming. 


--- On Wed, 3/7/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:


From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poets House Announcement
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Wednesday, March 7, 2012, 3:24 PM







Much of life (perhaps most)?includes the clause if I were in New York.
If I could afford New York, I'd be in New York. 
Therefore, much of life (perhaps most)?includes daydreaming. 
?


--- On Wed, 3/7/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets House Announcement
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Wednesday, March 7, 2012, 2:23 PM







?
For once Poets House has something I?d go to if I were in New York: a presentation by Haruo Shirane on Basho, 15 March at 7 P.M.
?
--Bob

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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From jjeffreymail  Wed Mar  7 15:30:55 2012
From: jjeffreymail (John Jeffrey)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 12:30:55 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <C30E8470F7CE4AF29131F5ED4977F2E3@BobHP>
References: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yah
	oo.com><054831B3E3CB4F3FAAEB80298E70C4F8@BobHP><1331128226.92677.YahooMailNeo@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><5578B547DC6548A9BC9
	633054F6E84E7@BobHP><1331134464.57951.YahooMailNeo@web120504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><4CED690948824611B641BD3AFE4818A2@BobHP>
	<1331137967.33892.YahooMailNeo@web120506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
	<C30E8470F7CE4AF29131F5ED4977F2E3@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1331152255.61414.YahooMailNeo@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Well, you've got me there, Bob: On a distinct date, at a specific time, in one particular place, where only a single reading is happening, and there are 10 reading slots and more than 10 poets wanting to read, then, yes, that could be seen as a zero-sum situation.? But that's a limited view.? I'm talking about the bigger picture.? Life may be a series of single instances, but it is a series.





>________________________________
> From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
>Sent: Wednesday, March 7, 2012 2:08 PM
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
> 
>
>??
>From: John Jeffrey 
>Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 11:32 AM
>To: NewPoetry List 
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
>? So how much money is there?? And if there is only "so much money 
available for poetry," then wouldn't the number of poetry books sold each year 
be near a constant?? (Unless there's a huge cache of poetry money out there 
just waiting for the next big thing.)
>
>
>
>Books by A,B,C will sell if people like their style.? And books 
by D,E,F will sell if people like their style.? If people don't, then they 
won't sell or be read.? If people really like A,B,C and want more, then 
they may look for others that write like A,B,C.? Maybe some find L and 
others find P.? A few more like only a certain type of poem in the A.B.C 
books and they will find W, who writes those types of poems.? And W then 
leads them to X,Y,Z.
>
>
>
>Yet maybe D never sells because no one likes it or doesn't understand 
it or has never heard of it.? Maybe E sells a few copies because it's 
difficult and there's a smaller audience for difficult poetry.? Maybe F 
sells but only after the readers grow bored of A,B,C.
>
>
>Whatever the reasons are, it's not because there's a finite amount of 
money.? And without a finite, there's no zero-sum.
>
>
>
>--JohnJ
>?
>At any given moment, there?s only so much money 
available.? Or (Jeff) so many available appreciators or venues or whatever 
the sum relevant to a given poet is.? From moment to moment, whatever the 
sum consists of changes, often into a zero sum game with more participants, such 
as from poetry into all books, or all arts, or?eventually?into all human 
concerns. But the point is that on a given night, at a given venue for a poetry 
reading, it?s a zero sum game in some way.? If the poets involved are 
lucky, they will have won a zero sum game with some movie theatre by drawing 
enough people to hear them to make the occasion worthwhile to them, and not had 
a significant zero sum game among themselves.? The process can be 
complicated, but always must involve a zero sum game.? Every breath of air 
you take results in something?s losing a zero sum game. 
>?
>--Bob?
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
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From poet_in_hell_files  Wed Mar  7 15:52:22 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 12:52:22 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <C4B7103DD3894CEF9E630F6BDADAF181@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1331153542.84165.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

50, 000 better than average readers of poetry reading how many good, and very good poets? Isn't this theory from the unusually?optimistic school of number crunching, Bob?

--- On Wed, 3/7/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Wednesday, March 7, 2012, 1:54 PM






?


?

From: Halvard Johnson 
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 11:12 AM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
?
50,000 mediocre poets might be 50,000 better than average 
readers of poetry.
?
Absolutely.? (Depending a bit on the workshop.)? Which is an excellent reason for workshops in poetry.? I?d say more but I can?t remember what my point was, or points were.
?
--Bob




??? 



Serving the tri-state area.
?
Hal
Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com


On Barcelona (submissions sought; email to my address above)
Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/



Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections







On Wed, Mar 7, 2012 at 5:55 AM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:





?


?

From: John Jeffrey 
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 9:18 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
?



I don't understand the hostility toward writing programs. Yes, most of the writers/poets that graduate from these programs fall somewhere between mediocre and good. Many may be miserable; others might even be very good. So what? Who cares if 5,000--or 50,000--"certified" poets are freshly minted each year? 



?
And why shouldn't they do stupid assignments? And so what if these assignments don't produce good poems. I remember running scales on the guitar and the piano--those didn't create good songs. I remember my brother drawing train tracks and city streets to practice perspective, or painting balls and cones to practice shading--no good artwork there. Ever hear a singer practicing or watch a dancer do the same moves over and over?? No art there.
?
All art demands practice--but it's not to create decent art then. It's for the sake of understanding their art, so they might--MIGHT--create something worthwhile later. And if they don't, so what? Some people just enjoy writing poems or painting or playing music. They don't have to be great.
?
Beside, poetry is not a zero-sum game. No art is. Crowds of mediocre poets do not somehow muscle out the number of good poets. The fact that the Osmonds existed did not affect Led Zepplin. Someone painting tigers on black velvet did not hurt Jackson Pollock. And some graduate of Yourtown Community College poetry program does not diminish the work of Donald Hall.

?
Finally, all programs, writing or otherwise, exist to make a profit. That's not a knock. It's just economics.
?
--JohnJ
?
What do we do with 50,000 mediocre poets, John?? There are niches in society for fifty thousand mediocre engineers, but where are they for the same number of mediocre poets?? I am, of course, speaking of poetry as a vocation, not as a hobby. 
I wish, too, you would explain why poetry (as a serious vocation) is not, like everything I know of, a zero-sum game.? Sure, no poet can be kept from composing poems by crowds of other poets.? But the zero-sum game comes into effect for poets who want to be read.? Or heard.? Take a simple one-evening poetry reading: if five hundred poets want to read at it, and can fit into the space set aside for the reading, some have to be losers?unless you have them all read at once, in which case they?ll all be partial losers because all will be heard but none properly heard. 
--Bob 
?
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


?


_______________________________________________
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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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From poet_in_hell_files  Wed Mar  7 16:01:35 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 13:01:35 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Donald Hall and the Golden Arches
In-Reply-To: <C880B3E31E5C40C1A6B6C02EB61C4ECF@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1331154095.75365.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

i'm not exactly an expect. 
Iowa simply has the rep.
?
what counts, is the poet, and whether the poet can actually teach. those few may come? ... who knows where? ... active in your sort of poetry ... perhaps Buffalo? ... an art school? 

--- On Tue, 3/6/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Donald Hall and the Golden Arches
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Tuesday, March 6, 2012, 5:17 PM






?


?

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Tuesday, March 06, 2012 4:52 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Donald Hall and the Golden Arches
?






I've suspected as much, that creative writing programs exist because they're profitable. Some may be useful. Iowa, for instance. Since it attracts top talent.
?
A loud no comment on that, Stephen?but I liked Lloyd Dunn?s work (dunno what he?s been up to for the past twenty years or so), and he came out of Iowa.? I?d be curious to know what schools have produced any of the best poets during the past thirty years.? Harvard produced a lot before 1950, but very few since (none active in my sort of poetry).
?
--Bob
-----Inline Attachment Follows-----


_______________________________________________
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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman  Wed Mar  7 16:13:30 2012
From: bobgrumman (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:13:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <1331153542.84165.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1331153542.84165.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <0D909DDAD42F4AA395360C5B35602563@BobHP>



From: stephen russell 
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 3:52 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?

      50, 000 better than average readers of poetry reading how many good, and very good poets? Isn't this theory from the unusually optimistic school of number crunching, Bob?
     

Not many, but more than may have been the case.  I think, too, that they would be reading a fair number of established good poets, which I do think essential for engagement with equally good contemporary poets.
--Bob.
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From bobgrumman  Wed Mar  7 16:17:33 2012
From: bobgrumman (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:17:33 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?
In-Reply-To: <1331152255.61414.YahooMailNeo@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
References: <1330806195.89739.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><1331086697.62469.YahooMailNeo@web120501.mail.ne1.yah
	oo.com><054831B3E3CB4F3FAAEB80298E70C4F8@BobHP><1331128226.92677.YahooMailNeo@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><5578B547DC6548A9BC9
	633054F6E84E7@BobHP><1331134464.57951.YahooMailNeo@web120504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><4CED690948824611B641BD3AFE4818A2@BobHP><133113
	7967.33892.YahooMailNeo@web120506.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><C30E8470F7CE4AF29131F5ED4977F2E3@BobHP>
	<1331152255.61414.YahooMailNeo@web120503.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <83199899A5E243C7AF13837F8A461282@BobHP>



From: John Jeffrey 
Sent: Wednesday, March 07, 2012 3:30 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] McPoem ... so what?

Well, you've got me there, Bob: On a distinct date, at a specific time, in one particular place, where only a single reading is happening, and there are 10 reading slots and more than 10 poets wanting to read, then, yes, that could be seen as a zero-sum situation.  But that's a limited view.  I'm talking about the bigger picture.  Life may be a series of single instances, but it is a series.

For me, a series of zero-sum games.  I don?t see how you can get away from it, John: a year will have only so many slots for poets who want to read.  And it?s much worse for poets looking for book-publication slots, which it seems to me every poet should want to get.

--Bob

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From jforjames  Wed Mar  7 17:09:57 2012
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 17:09:57 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] #6 Lunch Poems
Message-ID: <8CECAC62A7CEB5C-A0C-2022@webmail-m138.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.wnyc.org/shows/lopate/blogs/lodown/2012/mar/07/object-6-frank-oharas-lunch-poems/
The Leonard Lopate Show
The Story of New York in 10 Objects


It was slightly surprising that Frank O?Hara?s 1964 collection Lunch Poems came in at number six on our list, but it turns out to be a very good way of looking at New York City. As NYU professor Lytle Shaw, author of the book Frank O?Hara: The Poetics of Coterie explains ?Lunch Poems is a condensed and highly accessible book that is smaller than a subway map.? That feature makes it easy to take the book anywhere. Shaw described it as having the potential to ?acclimatize you to the things New York has to offer.?


O'Hara is unlike many mid-century poets...



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From jforjames  Wed Mar  7 17:11:14 2012
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 17:11:14 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry and the Public Sphere
Message-ID: <8CECAC658D4C3D4-A0C-2050@webmail-m138.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.bostonreview.net/BR37.2/david_micah_greenberg_forum.php
Poetry and the Public Sphere
Addressing ?When That Becomes This?
David Micah Greenberg


Greenberg?s allying of conservative politics (represented in the essay by former Fox News pundit Glenn Beck) and progressive poetics (represented by renowned poet-critic Charles Bernstein) struck a nerve with more than a few of our readers?including Bernstein himself. Take a look at the article here to revisit Greenberg?s discussion, including his take on Bernstein?s celebrated poem ?War Stories.? For many readers, the most controversial point Greenberg makes is his suggestion that to claim political force for experimental poetry on the grounds that its difficulty ?gives readers the capacity to reject dominant discourses? is wishful thinking at best...




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From amyhappens  Wed Mar  7 19:30:11 2012
From: amyhappens (amy king)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:30:11 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject)
Message-ID: <1331166611.23120.YahooMailNeo@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Dear Friends,


Over the past few days, VIDA's 2011 Count has been making big news in many major media outlets. If you haven't seen VIDA's breakdown of the rates of publication between male and female writers for 2011, please find the link here:

http://vidaweb.wpg1.info/the-count

As you see, the numbers are not great for women writers, nationally or internationally. But VIDA has a strong vision for future programming that will address what the poet Eleanor Wilner referred to as "the 
Great Silence." We at VIDA are deeply committed to making sure that in 
future more women writers' voices are valued and enjoyed by readers 
around the world. We do this for our daughters. We do this for our 
mothers. We do this for the many people--both men and women--who care 
about women's voices.

We are writing to ask you to consider making a tax-deductible donation to VIDA today.?

A donation of $25-$500 makes you a "V.I.P." (VIDA Inclined Person). 
Donations of $500 plus make you one of VIDA's "Literary Heroes." With your permission, we'll be pleased to thank you for your generosity 
on our website. Your donation will allow us to pursue the fellowships, 
publications and mentoring workshops we mean to provide for those many 
writers who need our support and encouragement.

Because?VIDA is a volunteer-run, non-profit organization, you can be certain that your entire donation will go directly to programming that grows and sustains the work of women writers at every age and stage of their literary lives.?

Here's the link to our website's donation page. There you can donate safely and quickly by using your credit card or PayPal account:

http://www.vidaweb.org/donate-now

Thank you in advance for your goodwill and support. It means much to those of us who are actively trying to move this important conversation forward. You have our gratitude.

Sincerely,

The VIDA Executive and Directors' Board

Cate Marvin
Erin Belieu
Ann Townsend
Cheryl Strayed
Danielle Pafunda
Barrie Jean Borich
Kekla Magoon

Administrative Associate
Jennifer Fitzgerald
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From amyhappens  Wed Mar  7 19:56:17 2012
From: amyhappens (amy king)
Date: Wed, 7 Mar 2012 16:56:17 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bill Knott sings Bill Knott
Message-ID: <1331168177.21904.YahooMailNeo@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

http://youtu.be/rUEk4NK5I-k
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From jlm8047  Wed Mar  7 22:34:01 2012
From: jlm8047 (Jerry McGuire)
Date: Wed, 07 Mar 2012 21:34:01 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bill Knott sings Bill Knott
In-Reply-To: <1331168177.21904.YahooMailNeo@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <1331168177.21904.YahooMailNeo@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4F5828A9.70102@louisiana.edu>

The email address tagged to that video is "notKnott," and (though I'm an 
atheist of decades of devoted repudiation of all things "sacred") I pray 
and pray that I'm correct in saying that Bill Knott--a great wit and a 
favored poet--couldn't have had anything whatever to do with that 
upload. I see that the poem, with a note to the effect that it reminds 
him (or somebody) of a Patty Loveless song, is posted on his blog. I've 
never met Bill Knott, so don't know what he sounds like in person. Will 
someone please reassure me?

Or (Lord help us all!) could there be another Bill Knott, not (Knott!) 
the author of the fine _Laugh at the End of the World_?

Jerry

On 3/7/2012 6:56 PM, amy king wrote:
> http://youtu.be/rUEk4NK5I-k
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506
jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
337-482-5478

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From amyhappens  Thu Mar  8 08:05:51 2012
From: amyhappens (amy king)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 05:05:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bill Knott sings Bill Knott
Message-ID: <1331211951.47608.androidMobile@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

That is Bill Knott.? Why is that so incongruous for you, Jerry?? Must he not grow old, not sing ever?? He doesn't have a history for doing what is popular exactly...


Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android

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From amyhappens  Thu Mar  8 09:43:44 2012
From: amyhappens (amy king)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 06:43:44 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bill Knott sings Bill Knott
In-Reply-To: <1331217548.97093.YahooMailNeo@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <1331211951.47608.androidMobile@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<4F58B95B.1000906@louisiana.edu>
	<1331217548.97093.YahooMailNeo@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1331217824.18361.YahooMailNeo@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

?p.s.? I hate to tell you, Knott's no Picasso or Georgia O'Keefe, but he deigns to paint too and couple those pieces with his poetry - look at those embarrassed folks - http://www.flickr.com/photos/amyking/sets/72157624682880241/





________________________________
 From: amy king


It does clear your view up.? And while I'm a fan of folks perfecting their craft/s for the long haul (I try myself via poetry), I like to think there's room for the amateur (yes, put me in that 'democratic' camp) to put things out there too, but more importantly, there is room for people to sing - and all that singing allows - without everyone who sings having to be professionals / spend a lifetime perfecting their ability to do so.? That notion, of all people being permitted to sing, is as ancient as women washing clothes and singing, communities joining voices, etc. 

I suppose Bill could spend some time working with a voice coach, harnessing whatever skill he can, esp if he wanted to perform on stages, with regularity - but that feels a bit extreme for what he seems to want to achieve here:? to
 send a poem out into the world in his own voice after being moved by Loveless.? He certainly doesn't sound as awful as you imply, and his effort reminds me of those "unskilled" masses of Appalachian folks who sing, not to be admired for their skill, but because they feel something and use their voices in accord.? Like Knott, they are probably better at something else like building homes out of tall pines, but does that mean they can't use voice to emote?? To connect with others?? Knott's an excellent poet, so he should only stick to that?? That he should sing and share is embarrassing?? Weird.

I don't find Knott's effort offensive or embarrassing in the least because I don't presume he should be as skilled as me when I sing nor do I think singing is solely about skill.? There's room for a lot in the world (it's a pretty big one) that doesn't always meet up with what art critics say art "should" be or do.?
 (I.e.? be controlled, sound as melodious as X, etc.)? Neither do I think we should only put out into the world the products and efforts that would match up with what the "best" of that group does (i.e. you don't share your guitar riffs because you're not as skilled as Eddie Van Halen ) - we'd all never get to do anything since there can be only one or two "bests."? And ultimately, my best would not be your best, until you start to quantify, and then that's just science, which rarely accounts for the vision and openness of art.? (Many believe Belinda Bedekovic is the best "keytarist" in the world - so I should never play one publicly bc she's far faster and has smoother moves than me?? http://youtu.be/-jpr3oe96JU)? 

I suppose this also speaks to the whole argument also that there's only limited effort / material in the world and that effort better reach some gold standard when it's put out there. ? Everything is
 limited?? I find the limitations of art, and exactly what it should achieve, are often the ones decreed and put upon others by those who demand a "best" that suites their myopic vision of exactly what should exist.? Good thing Einstein didn't stick to working on only the very 'best' equations that all of the other mathematicians of his day were doing.?? Good thing Lady Day didn't tuck it in when she realized her voice had a limited range.? Etc.


Amy


I hate straight singing. I have to change a tune to my own way of doing it. That's all I know.?
--Billie Holiday
 



________________________________
 From: Jerry McGuire


I'm a great admirer of his, and of growing as old as one can. I also agree with Pound, though: "I believe in every man knowing enough of music to play 'God Bless Our Home' on the harmonium, but I do not believe in every man giving concerts and printing his sin." 

The incongruity, to be clear, is that I'm put off by a poet I
    admire, whose work shows great wit, taste, judgment, and skill,
    publicly presenting his work in a way that suggests those things
    don't matter to him. I've played the guitar for at least an hour a
    day for thirty years, but the idea of posting my all-thumbs version
    of "Deep River Blues" where a real guitarist might see it fills me
    with revulsion. I suspect that anyone who knows me well, seeing me
    clunking my way through "Ghost of a Chance" on YouTube, would think
    I'd completely lost my senses--that I was behaving wildly out of
    character. I'm perfectly aware that the internet is an amateur's
    garden of delights, and that much of its charm, for some people,
    lies in its very democratic openness to people writing or depicting
    anything they feel like revealing, no matter how embarrassing,
    silly, or (to some) depressing. I have no affection whatever for
    that dimension of the internet.

Does that clear it up for you?

Jerry

On 3/8/2012 7:05 AM, amy king wrote: 
That is Bill Knott. Why is that so incongruous for you, Jerry? Must he not grow old, not sing ever? He doesn't have a history for doing what is popular exactly...
>
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android 
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From amyhappens  Thu Mar  8 09:39:08 2012
From: amyhappens (amy king)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 06:39:08 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bill Knott sings Bill Knott
In-Reply-To: <4F58B95B.1000906@louisiana.edu>
References: <1331211951.47608.androidMobile@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<4F58B95B.1000906@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <1331217548.97093.YahooMailNeo@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

It does clear your view up.? And while I'm a fan of folks perfecting their craft/s for the long haul (I try myself via poetry), I like to think there's room for the amateur (yes, put me in that 'democratic' camp) to put things out there too, but more importantly, there is room for people to sing - and all that singing allows - without everyone who sings having to be professionals / spend a lifetime perfecting their ability to do so.? That notion, of all people being permitted to sing, is as ancient as women washing clothes and singing, communities joining voices, etc. 

I suppose Bill could spend some time working with a voice coach, harnessing whatever skill he can, esp if he wanted to perform on stages, with regularity - but that feels a bit extreme for what he seems to want to achieve here:? to send a poem out into the world in his own voice after being moved by Loveless.? He certainly doesn't sound as awful as you imply, and his effort reminds me of those "unskilled" masses of Appalachian folks who sing, not to be admired for their skill, but because they feel something and use their voices in accord.? Like Knott, they are probably better at something else like building homes out of tall pines, but does that mean they can't use voice to emote?? To connect with others?? Knott's an excellent poet, so he should only stick to that?? That he should sing and share is embarrassing?? Weird.

I don't find Knott's effort offensive or embarrassing in the least because I don't presume he should be as skilled as me when I sing nor do I think singing is solely about skill.? There's room for a lot in the world (it's a pretty big one) that doesn't always meet up with what art critics say art "should" be or do.? (I.e.? be controlled, sound as melodious as X, etc.)? Neither do I think we should only put out into the world the products and efforts that would match up with what the "best" of that group does (i.e. you don't share your guitar riffs because you're not as skilled as Eddie Van Halen ) - we'd all never get to do anything since there can be only one or two "bests."? And ultimately, my best would not be your best, until you start to quantify, and then that's just science, which rarely accounts for the vision and openness of art.? (Many believe Belinda Bedekovic is the best "keytarist" in the world - so I should never play one publicly bc
 she's far faster and has smoother moves than me?? http://youtu.be/-jpr3oe96JU)? 

I suppose this also speaks to the whole argument also that there's only limited effort / material in the world and that effort better reach some gold standard when it's put out there. ? Everything is limited?? I find the limitations of art, and exactly what it should achieve, are often the ones decreed and put upon others by those who demand a "best" that suites their myopic vision of exactly what should exist.? Good thing Einstein didn't stick to working on only the very 'best' equations that all of the other mathematicians of his day were doing.?? Good thing Lady Day didn't tuck it in when she realized her voice had a limited range.? Etc.


Amy


I hate straight singing. I have to change a tune to my own way of doing it. That's all I know.?
--Billie Holiday
 



________________________________
 From: Jerry McGuire


I'm a great admirer of his, and of growing as old as one can. I also agree with Pound, though: "I believe in every man knowing enough of music to play 'God Bless Our Home' on the harmonium, but I do not believe in every man giving concerts and printing his sin." 

The incongruity, to be clear, is that I'm put off by a poet I
    admire, whose work shows great wit, taste, judgment, and skill,
    publicly presenting his work in a way that suggests those things
    don't matter to him. I've played the guitar for at least an hour a
    day for thirty years, but the idea of posting my all-thumbs version
    of "Deep River Blues" where a real guitarist might see it fills me
    with revulsion. I suspect that anyone who knows me well, seeing me
    clunking my way through "Ghost of a Chance" on YouTube, would think
    I'd completely lost my senses--that I was behaving wildly out of
    character. I'm perfectly aware that the internet is an amateur's
    garden of delights, and that much of its charm, for some people,
    lies in its very democratic openness to people writing or depicting
    anything they feel like revealing, no matter how embarrassing,
    silly, or (to some) depressing. I have no affection whatever for
    that dimension of the internet.

Does that clear it up for you?

Jerry

On 3/8/2012 7:05 AM, amy king wrote: 
That is Bill Knott. Why is that so incongruous for you, Jerry? Must he not grow old, not sing ever? He doesn't have a history for doing what is popular exactly...
>
>
>
>Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android 
>
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From amyhappens  Thu Mar  8 09:53:09 2012
From: amyhappens (amy king)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 06:53:09 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bill Knott sings Bill Knott
In-Reply-To: <1331217824.18361.YahooMailNeo@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <1331211951.47608.androidMobile@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<4F58B95B.1000906@louisiana.edu>
	<1331217548.97093.YahooMailNeo@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<1331217824.18361.YahooMailNeo@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1331218389.57976.YahooMailNeo@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

p.p.s.? I also get your point that Knott is "devaluing" his poetry by coupling it with his embarrassing voice.? But as noted, your equation is premised on the subjective judgment that his singing is 'poor'.? Not everyone thinks this of his effort - and some even appreciate it for various reasons.? Which takes me back to my last email and who gets to limit whom and on what basis. 
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From jlm8047  Thu Mar  8 10:22:43 2012
From: jlm8047 (Jerry McGuire)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 09:22:43 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bill Knott sings Bill Knott
In-Reply-To: <1331218389.57976.YahooMailNeo@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <1331211951.47608.androidMobile@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>	<4F58B95B.1000906@louisiana.edu>	<1331217548.97093.YahooMailNeo@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>	<1331217824.18361.YahooMailNeo@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<1331218389.57976.YahooMailNeo@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4F58CEC3.6020804@louisiana.edu>

Thanks for the lecture on democratic process. As for Appalachian 
singers, do you know the McCormick brothers? I come from a family that 
sang on their front porch--mostly white hillbilly 
music/bluegrass/ancient folk stuff/old pop songs, etc. On my right two 
brothers who collected bluegrass 78s, on my right another who collected 
jazz, and all of them expecting me to be The One. So: cornet lessons 
(and late nights with Bix Beiderbecke/Louis Armstrong/Wild Bill Davison) 
and then guitar (and late nights with Joe Pass/Clapton/Charlie 
Christian/Segovia/Hendrix). None of it made me a real musician, despite 
my hunger. You don't think BK's singing stinks in spades? That's your 
business. As for "limiting" anyone, if I can't say I don't like 
something that I don't like, it's not the thing I don't like that's 
being limited, it's me. And where the hell does this holier-than-thou 
attitude come from, anyway? You posted something you (evidently) think 
is charming; I didn't like it and said so; I'm repaid with aspersions 
about my political ethics. Think it over.

Jerry

On 3/8/2012 8:53 AM, amy king wrote:
> p.p.s.  I also get your point that Knott is "devaluing" his poetry by 
> coupling it with his embarrassing voice.  But as noted, your equation 
> is premised on the subjective judgment that his singing is 'poor'.  
> Not everyone thinks this of his effort - and some even appreciate it 
> for various reasons.  Which takes me back to my last email and who 
> gets to limit whom and on what basis.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-- 
________________________________________________________

Jerry McGuire
English Department    Box 44691
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70504-4691
337-482-5478
Creative Writing Website:
http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html
______________________________________________________


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From GrahamD  Thu Mar  8 10:42:38 2012
From: GrahamD (David Graham)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 09:42:38 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
Message-ID: <CB7E2F8E.7917%GrahamD@ripon.edu>

The prose feature up now on Poetry Daily is from a book I just started
reading by Jeffrey Skinner:  The 6.5 Practices of Moderately Successful
Poets: A Self-Help Memoir.  So far, I?m finding it a very entertaining and
wise volume.  And possibly the best title of the year.

http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_skinner.php

Here?s a snippet from the chapter posted on PD, titled ?O, Research?:

When I was forming myself (and being formed) as a poet in my twenties, the
fields of science and poetry had amicably separated. It is difficult to
imagine Strand or Merwin, as learned and urbane as they were, laboring to
insinuate the latest discoveries in physics or cosmology into their
pared-down, stone and bone, deep-image poems. And it is equally hard to
imagine that Robert Creeley or Alan Dugan sat down with much more than their
own minds, which lucky for them included encyclopedic knowledge of English
and American prosody, to write the next poem. It is true that Adrienne Rich,
Lucille Clifton, and other pioneers were bringing fresh cultural, ethnic,
and gender perspectives into what was at the time a practice dominated by
white men. And there was "language" poetry, which came packed with its own
political theory and ambitions for wider cultural inclusion. But beyond
these exceptions the era of the seventies was more romantic than classical,
and the brief lyric issuing from a definable self was clearly the dominant
and ascendant mode.

Everything changes. Today young poets have the speed and reach of the
Internet at their fingertips. This, coupled with a postmodernnist worldview
that inherently distrusts the notion of a stable self, has made for an
innovative and decentered poetry that allows for a sometimes bewildering
range of voices, tones, rhetorical sets, "nonpoetic" disciplines and
obsessions, jargons, and exotic, un-"poetic" bodies of knowledge, to be
incorporated into the work. It has resulted in a restructuring of what we
mean when we say poetry. It has made for an amazing variety of poetries.
--Jeffrey Skinner


-- 

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz

Poetry Library:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================


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From amyhappens  Thu Mar  8 10:59:27 2012
From: amyhappens (amy king)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 07:59:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bill Knott sings Bill Knott
In-Reply-To: <4F58CEC3.6020804@louisiana.edu>
References: <1331211951.47608.androidMobile@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<4F58B95B.1000906@louisiana.edu>
	<1331217548.97093.YahooMailNeo@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<1331217824.18361.YahooMailNeo@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<1331218389.57976.YahooMailNeo@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<4F58CEC3.6020804@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <1331222367.6068.YahooMailNeo@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Jerry,


I'm glad you're well-versed in Bluegrass, et al.? I too am educated a bit in that realm, though I'm only from Stone Mountain, Ga.? I have friends from that region and have done a little listening myself.? It's funny, because a long time ago, that music wasn't considered "real" and was also likely dubbed "embarrassing," esp as put to those who hiked up to record that so-called music.? 

As for who gets to be a "real musician" (great term! who bestows that title?), I can only repeat that the notion is subjective.? It's debated by some, even today, that Holliday wasn't such.? Her voice, how do you put it, could also be said to "stink in spades."? Those Appalachians certainly weren't seen "real musicians" for a long, long time.? 

As for being "holier than thou", I responded to your own-holier-thou attitude as put to Bill Knott in that he should be embarrassed for his effort, and now, that his voice "stinks in spades."? How dare I respond?? I should just let only you have your opinion and not respond, for my own opinion is not simple concurrence. 

I'll call it out again for old time's sake:? you said that Knott is devaluing his poetry by coupling it with his "embarrassing" voice and one should only sing if one is talented.? Who makes that call? ? Again, it boils down to subjectivity and tallying of identifiable factors (i.e. speed, type of music, pitch, etc.).?? Art is never the sum of such parts.?? And as Emerson put it, "A great man is always willing to be little." --even if that means he sings in the world and gets name-called for it.

Moreover, I'm responding to your idea that he should shut up and stick to poetry by noting that one obvious talent shouldn't negate other attempts to be artistic.? One doesn't exclude the other, and such thinking relies on hierarchical thinking.? One should not only do what one is best at.? Those Appalachian singers who were known to the world as poor unskilled singers would have had to stick to house building based on that premise.? I say, let them sing and work while they're at it - why must one negate the other?? That is an opinion.? If that makes me "holier than thou," I'd rather be such than the censor you've set yourself up to be.

Amy? 


p.s.? As for telling me to think it over, you should do the same.? "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."??
--Ralph Waldo Emerson
  





________________________________
 From: Jerry McGuire


 
Thanks for the lecture on democratic process. As for Appalachian singers, do you know the McCormick brothers? I come from a family that sang on their front porch--mostly white hillbilly music/bluegrass/ancient folk stuff/old pop songs, etc. On my right two brothers who collected bluegrass 78s, on my right another who collected jazz, and all of them expecting me to be The One. So: cornet lessons (and late nights with Bix Beiderbecke/Louis Armstrong/Wild Bill Davison) and then guitar (and late nights with Joe Pass/Clapton/Charlie Christian/Segovia/Hendrix). None of it made me a real musician, despite my hunger. You don't think BK's singing stinks in spades? That's your business. As for "limiting" anyone, if I can't say I don't like something that I don't like, it's not the thing I don't like that's being limited, it's me. And where the hell does this holier-than-thou attitude come from, anyway? You posted something you (evidently) think is charming; I
 didn't like it and said so; I'm repaid with aspersions about my political ethics. Think it over.

Jerry

On 3/8/2012 8:53 AM, amy king wrote: 
p.p.s.? I also get your point that Knott is "devaluing" his poetry by coupling it with his embarrassing voice.? But as noted, your equation is premised on the subjective judgment that his singing is 'poor'.? Not everyone thinks this of his effort - and some even appreciate it for various reasons.? Which takes me back to my last email and who gets to limit whom and on what basis. 
>
>?
>
>
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 

-- 
________________________________________________________ Jerry McGuire
English Department    Box 44691
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70504-4691
337-482-5478
Creative Writing Website: http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html ______________________________________________________ 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From jlm8047  Thu Mar  8 11:42:28 2012
From: jlm8047 (Jerry McGuire)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 10:42:28 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bill Knott sings Bill Knott
In-Reply-To: <1331222367.6068.YahooMailNeo@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <1331211951.47608.androidMobile@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>	<4F58B95B.1000906@louisiana.edu>	<1331217548.97093.YahooMailNeo@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>	<1331217824.18361.YahooMailNeo@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>	<1331218389.57976.YahooMailNeo@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>	<4F58CEC3.6020804@louisiana.edu>
	<1331222367.6068.YahooMailNeo@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4F58E174.9000205@louisiana.edu>

It's pretty amusing to hear that I've set myself up to be a censor, or 
that I'd press my dismay over an expression (artistic or otherwise) that 
I think is awful to the point that I'd invest any energy in denying its 
originator the privilege of that expression. It seems to me you can't 
have been reading any of my posts on this list. I don't feel that just 
because some idiot thinks critical race theory equates to racism, he 
should shut up. I don't mind saying, though, that I would personally be 
happier if he would.

Cheers,

Jerry

On 3/8/2012 9:59 AM, amy king wrote:
> Jerry,
>
> I'm glad you're well-versed in Bluegrass, et al.  I too am educated a 
> bit in that realm, though I'm only from Stone Mountain, Ga.  I have 
> friends from that region and have done a little listening myself.  
> It's funny, because a long time ago, that music wasn't considered 
> "real" and was also likely dubbed "embarrassing," esp as put to those 
> who hiked up to record that so-called music.
>
> As for who gets to be a "real musician" (great term! who bestows that 
> title?), I can only repeat that the notion is subjective.  It's 
> debated by some, even today, that Holliday wasn't such.  Her voice, 
> how do you put it, could also be said to "stink in spades."  Those 
> Appalachians certainly weren't seen "real musicians" for a long, long 
> time.
>
> As for being "holier than thou", I responded to your own-holier-thou 
> attitude as put to Bill Knott in that he should be embarrassed for his 
> effort, and now, that his voice "stinks in spades."  How dare I 
> respond?  I should just let only you have your opinion and not 
> respond, for my own opinion is not simple concurrence.
>
> I'll call it out again for old time's sake:  you said that Knott is 
> devaluing his poetry by coupling it with his "embarrassing" voice and 
> one should only sing if one is talented.  Who makes that call?   
> Again, it boils down to subjectivity and tallying of identifiable 
> factors (i.e. speed, type of music, pitch, etc.).   Art is never the 
> sum of such parts.   And as Emerson put it, "A great man is always 
> willing to be little." --even if that means he sings in the world and 
> gets name-called for it.
>
> Moreover, I'm responding to your idea that he should shut up and stick 
> to poetry by noting that one obvious talent shouldn't negate other 
> attempts to be artistic.  One doesn't exclude the other, and such 
> thinking relies on hierarchical thinking.  One should not only do what 
> one is best at.  Those Appalachian singers who were known to the world 
> as poor unskilled singers would have had to stick to house building 
> based on that premise.  I say, let them sing and work while they're at 
> it - why must one negate the other?  That is an opinion.  If that 
> makes me "holier than thou," I'd rather be such than the censor you've 
> set yourself up to be.
>
> Amy
>
> p.s.  As for telling me to think it over, you should do the same.  "A 
> foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little 
> statesmen and philosophers and divines."   --Ralph Waldo Emerson
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Jerry McGuire
>
> Thanks for the lecture on democratic process. As for Appalachian 
> singers, do you know the McCormick brothers? I come from a family that 
> sang on their front porch--mostly white hillbilly 
> music/bluegrass/ancient folk stuff/old pop songs, etc. On my right two 
> brothers who collected bluegrass 78s, on my right another who 
> collected jazz, and all of them expecting me to be The One. So: cornet 
> lessons (and late nights with Bix Beiderbecke/Louis Armstrong/Wild 
> Bill Davison) and then guitar (and late nights with Joe 
> Pass/Clapton/Charlie Christian/Segovia/Hendrix). None of it made me a 
> real musician, despite my hunger. You don't think BK's singing stinks 
> in spades? That's your business. As for "limiting" anyone, if I can't 
> say I don't like something that I don't like, it's not the thing I 
> don't like that's being limited, it's me. And where the hell does this 
> holier-than-thou attitude come from, anyway? You posted something you 
> (evidently) think is charming; I didn't like it and said so; I'm 
> repaid with aspersions about my political ethics. Think it over.
>
> Jerry
>
> On 3/8/2012 8:53 AM, amy king wrote:
>> p.p.s.  I also get your point that Knott is "devaluing" his poetry by 
>> coupling it with his embarrassing voice.  But as noted, your equation 
>> is premised on the subjective judgment that his singing is 'poor'.  
>> Not everyone thinks this of his effort - and some even appreciate it 
>> for various reasons.  Which takes me back to my last email and who 
>> gets to limit whom and on what basis.
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu  <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> -- 
> ________________________________________________________
>
> Jerry McGuire
> English Department    Box 44691
> University of Louisiana at Lafayette
> Lafayette LA 70504-4691
> 337-482-5478
> Creative Writing Website:
> http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html
> ______________________________________________________
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-- 
________________________________________________________

Jerry McGuire
English Department    Box 44691
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70504-4691
337-482-5478
Creative Writing Website:
http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html
______________________________________________________


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From amyhappens  Thu Mar  8 12:38:27 2012
From: amyhappens (amy king)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 09:38:27 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bill Knott sings Bill Knott
In-Reply-To: <4F58E174.9000205@louisiana.edu>
References: <1331211951.47608.androidMobile@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<4F58B95B.1000906@louisiana.edu>
	<1331217548.97093.YahooMailNeo@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<1331217824.18361.YahooMailNeo@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<1331218389.57976.YahooMailNeo@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<4F58CEC3.6020804@louisiana.edu>
	<1331222367.6068.YahooMailNeo@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
	<4F58E174.9000205@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <1331228307.24704.YahooMailNeo@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

Jerry,
?
?I guess I mistook your call for Knott to stick to poetry and stop 'embarrassing' himself by singing, along with your initial disbelief that he put such?effort out there, your characterizations of "embarrassing," "silly," "depressing," his voice "stinks in spades," your accusation of me being "holier than thou" when I deigned to have an opinion in response to your?own that wasn't one of simple concurrence, being?commanded to "Think it over,"?etc.?... I guess I mistook all of that as a method for stultifying conversation rather than one of open engagement.? I'd hate to see you actively censoring anyone.? 

Amy


From: Jerry McGuire <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at charlemagne.cddc.vt.edu> 
Sent: Thursday, March 8, 2012 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Bill Knott sings Bill Knott


It's pretty amusing to hear that I've set myself up to be a censor, or that I'd press my dismay over an expression (artistic or otherwise) that I think is awful to the point that I'd invest any energy in denying its originator the privilege of that expression. It seems to me you can't have been reading any of my posts on this list. I don't feel that just because some idiot thinks critical race theory equates to racism, he should shut up. I don't mind saying, though, that I would personally be happier if he would.

Cheers,

Jerry 

On 3/8/2012 9:59 AM, amy king wrote: 
Jerry,
>
>
>I'm glad you're well-versed in Bluegrass, et al.? I too am educated a bit in that realm, though I'm only from Stone Mountain, Ga.? I have friends from that region and have done a little listening myself.? It's funny, because a long time ago, that music wasn't considered "real" and was also likely dubbed "embarrassing," esp as put to those who hiked up to record that so-called music.? 
>
>As for who gets to be a "real musician" (great term! who bestows that title?), I can only repeat that the notion is subjective.? It's debated by some, even today, that Holliday wasn't such.? Her voice, how do you put it, could also be said to "stink in spades."? Those Appalachians certainly weren't seen "real musicians" for a long, long time.? 
>
>As for being "holier than thou", I responded to your own-holier-thou attitude as put to Bill Knott in that he should be embarrassed for his effort, and now, that his voice "stinks in spades."? How dare I respond?? I should just let only you have your opinion and not respond, for my own opinion is not simple concurrence. 
>
>I'll call it out again for old time's sake:? you said that Knott is devaluing his poetry by coupling it with his "embarrassing" voice and one should only sing if one is talented.? Who makes that call? ? Again, it boils down to subjectivity and tallying of identifiable factors (i.e. speed, type of music, pitch, etc.).?? Art is never the sum of such parts.?? And as Emerson put it, "A great man is always willing to be little." --even if that means he sings in the world and gets name-called for it.
>
>Moreover, I'm responding to your idea that he should shut up and stick to poetry by noting that one obvious talent shouldn't negate other attempts to be artistic.? One doesn't exclude the other, and such thinking relies on hierarchical thinking.? One should not only do what one is best at.? Those Appalachian singers who were known to the world as poor unskilled singers would have had to stick to house building based on that premise.? I say, let them sing and work while they're at it - why must one negate the other?? That is an opinion.? If that makes me "holier than thou," I'd rather be such than the censor you've set yourself up to be.
>
>Amy? 
>
>
>p.s.? As for telling me to think it over, you should do the same.? "A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines."?? --Ralph Waldo Emerson
>
>
>
>
>
>
>From: Jerry McGuire
>
>
>Thanks for the lecture on democratic process. As for Appalachian singers, do you know the McCormick brothers? I come from a family that sang on their front porch--mostly white hillbilly music/bluegrass/ancient folk stuff/old pop songs, etc. On my right two brothers who collected bluegrass 78s, on my right another who collected jazz, and all of them expecting me to be The One. So: cornet lessons (and late nights with Bix Beiderbecke/Louis Armstrong/Wild Bill Davison) and then guitar (and late nights with Joe Pass/Clapton/Charlie Christian/Segovia/Hendrix). None of it made me a real musician, despite my hunger. You don't think BK's singing stinks in spades? That's your business. As for "limiting" anyone, if I can't say I don't like something that I don't like, it's not the thing I don't like that's being limited, it's me. And where the hell does this holier-than-thou attitude come from, anyway? You posted something you (evidently) think is charming; I
 didn't like it and said so; I'm repaid with aspersions about my political ethics. Think it over.
>
>Jerry
>
>On 3/8/2012 8:53 AM, amy king wrote: 
>p.p.s.? I also get your point that Knott is "devaluing" his poetry by coupling it with his embarrassing voice.? But as noted, your equation is premised on the subjective judgment that his singing is 'poor'.? Not everyone thinks this of his effort - and some even appreciate it for various reasons.? Which takes me back to my last email and who gets to limit whom and on what basis. 
>>
>>?
>>
>>
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 
>
>-- 
________________________________________________________

Jerry McGuire
English Department    Box 44691
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70504-4691
337-482-5478
Creative Writing Website: http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html ______________________________________________________ 
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 

-- 
________________________________________________________

Jerry McGuire
English Department    Box 44691
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70504-4691
337-482-5478
Creative Writing Website: http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html ______________________________________________________ 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman  Thu Mar  8 12:39:32 2012
From: bobgrumman (bob grumman)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 12:39:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
In-Reply-To: <CB7E2F8E.7917%GrahamD@ripon.edu>
References: <CB7E2F8E.7917%GrahamD@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <D2688B8693D14340A1E325C960440D1A@BobHP>

Skinner on research in poetry

From: David Graham 
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 10:42 AM
To: NewPoetry 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry

The prose feature up now on Poetry Daily is from a book I just started reading by Jeffrey Skinner:  The 6.5 Practices of Moderately Successful Poets: A Self-Help Memoir.  So far, I?m finding it a very entertaining and wise volume.  And possibly the best title of the year.

http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_skinner.php

Here?s a snippet from the chapter posted on PD, titled ?O, Research?:

When I was forming myself (and being formed) as a poet in my twenties, the fields of science and poetry had amicably separated. It is difficult to imagine Strand or Merwin, as learned and urbane as they were, laboring to insinuate the latest discoveries in physics or cosmology into their pared-down, stone and bone, deep-image poems. And it is equally hard to imagine that Robert Creeley or Alan Dugan sat down with much more than their own minds, which lucky for them included encyclopedic knowledge of English and American prosody, to write the next poem. It is true that Adrienne Rich, Lucille Clifton, and other pioneers were bringing fresh cultural, ethnic, and gender perspectives into what was at the time a practice dominated by white men. And there was "language" poetry, which came packed with its own political theory and ambitions for wider cultural inclusion. But beyond these exceptions the era of the seventies was more romantic than classical, and the brief lyric issuing from a definable self was clearly the dominant and ascendant mode.

Everything changes. Today young poets have the speed and reach of the Internet at their fingertips. This, coupled with a postmodernnist worldview that inherently distrusts the notion of a stable self, has made for an innovative and decentered poetry that allows for a sometimes bewildering range of voices, tones, rhetorical sets, "nonpoetic" disciplines and obsessions, jargons, and exotic, un-"poetic" bodies of knowledge, to be incorporated into the work. It has resulted in a restructuring of what we mean when we say poetry. It has made for an amazing variety of poetries.
--Jeffrey Skinner


Weird to me, David, that you would be interested in someone who?d write the second paragraph above.  I don?t believe in postmodernism, myself, nor do I think distrust of ?the notion of a stable self? has much to do with what?s going on in poetry, although that distrust may be one reason so much of it is crap.  My impression is that most of the ?amazing variety of poetries? is due to a reduction of the self-to-objective-reality ratio among poets?or, put more simply, a preference for composing poetry about things and/or ideas (and images thereof) rather than about people.
--Bob
--Bob
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From bobgrumman  Thu Mar  8 13:19:47 2012
From: bobgrumman (bob grumman)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 13:19:47 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
In-Reply-To: <D2688B8693D14340A1E325C960440D1A@BobHP>
References: <CB7E2F8E.7917%GrahamD@ripon.edu>
	<D2688B8693D14340A1E325C960440D1A@BobHP>
Message-ID: <EE9A9DF2C842478B909ED00576C25F69@BobHP>

Skinner on research in poetryI should add that the Skinner book looks like it might be a good, worthwhile read, in spite of the use of terminology I don?t favor.

--Bob

From: bob grumman 
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 12:39 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry



From: David Graham 
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 10:42 AM
To: NewPoetry 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry

The prose feature up now on Poetry Daily is from a book I just started reading by Jeffrey Skinner:  The 6.5 Practices of Moderately Successful Poets: A Self-Help Memoir.  So far, I?m finding it a very entertaining and wise volume.  And possibly the best title of the year.

http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_skinner.php

Here?s a snippet from the chapter posted on PD, titled ?O, Research?:

When I was forming myself (and being formed) as a poet in my twenties, the fields of science and poetry had amicably separated. It is difficult to imagine Strand or Merwin, as learned and urbane as they were, laboring to insinuate the latest discoveries in physics or cosmology into their pared-down, stone and bone, deep-image poems. And it is equally hard to imagine that Robert Creeley or Alan Dugan sat down with much more than their own minds, which lucky for them included encyclopedic knowledge of English and American prosody, to write the next poem. It is true that Adrienne Rich, Lucille Clifton, and other pioneers were bringing fresh cultural, ethnic, and gender perspectives into what was at the time a practice dominated by white men. And there was "language" poetry, which came packed with its own political theory and ambitions for wider cultural inclusion. But beyond these exceptions the era of the seventies was more romantic than classical, and the brief lyric issuing from a definable self was clearly the dominant and ascendant mode.

Everything changes. Today young poets have the speed and reach of the Internet at their fingertips. This, coupled with a postmodernnist worldview that inherently distrusts the notion of a stable self, has made for an innovative and decentered poetry that allows for a sometimes bewildering range of voices, tones, rhetorical sets, "nonpoetic" disciplines and obsessions, jargons, and exotic, un-"poetic" bodies of knowledge, to be incorporated into the work. It has resulted in a restructuring of what we mean when we say poetry. It has made for an amazing variety of poetries.
--Jeffrey Skinner


Weird to me, David, that you would be interested in someone who?d write the second paragraph above.  I don?t believe in postmodernism, myself, nor do I think distrust of ?the notion of a stable self? has much to do with what?s going on in poetry, although that distrust may be one reason so much of it is crap.  My impression is that most of the ?amazing variety of poetries? is due to a reduction of the self-to-objective-reality ratio among poets?or, put more simply, a preference for composing poetry about things and/or ideas (and images thereof) rather than about people.
--Bob
--Bob


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From seamascain  Thu Mar  8 13:20:11 2012
From: seamascain (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9amas_Cain?=)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 12:20:11 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] St. Patrick's Day event
In-Reply-To: <CACQeQQx289R9NOwEm3wBcpRQ5zEO0qPX1PnBR-jFk3X5i6qbqw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CACQeQQx289R9NOwEm3wBcpRQ5zEO0qPX1PnBR-jFk3X5i6qbqw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CACQeQQxJ1uitYm6YXe2n6+-Ska5CrbexW7HJdgLo3zCF3E8-qA@mail.gmail.com>

_____________________________________


A CELEBRATION OF WORD AND MUSIC, for

St. Patrick's Day,
Saturday, March 17th, 2012
10:30 a.m.

CLOQUET PUBLIC LIBRARY,
320 Fourteenth Street,
Cloquet, Minnesota,
U.S.A., 55720 - 2051

St. Patrick's Day will be celebrated with a literary reading and
traditional Irish music at the Cloquet Public Library at 10:30 a.m.,
Saturday, March 17th. ?American-Irish author and Cloquet native S?amas
Cain will read from his recently published poetry-novel ?The Dangerous
Islands.? ?The reading will be accompanied by music performed on the
Celtic harp and penny whistle by Mary Hagen and Linda Crumpton.

All proceeds from the sale of ?The Dangerous Islands? at this event
will go to support the Programming Department at the Cloquet Public
Library.

S?amas Cain is a poet, playwright, conceptual artist, performance
artist, and theater director, who has written about Ireland for many
years. ?Born in Cloquet, he has been active in Irish artistic and
political circles since his first involvements in Northern Ireland in
the 1960s. ?The Northern Ireland conflict, known as ?The Troubles,?
was an early focus of his essays, pamphlets, and manifestos. ?In an
essay written in Northern Ireland in 1968, Cain expressed his
understanding of the struggle of the Irish Civil Rights Movement as a
hope to create a non-violent and humanist movement against the tyranny
of the British Establishment while deploring the ?mindless violence?
of the paramilitaries.

Ireland's struggles form the backdrop of his most recent work, ?The
Dangerous Islands.? ??The Dangerous Islands? is an unconventional
novel that combines aspects of various genres, including poetry and
play script, in conveying the experience of a young Irish-American man
from 1965 to 1998.

Francis M. Carroll, author of ?The Fires of Autumn : The Cloquet-Moose
Lake Disaster of 1918? and ?Crossroads in Time : A History of Carlton
County, Minnesota,? has written that Cain's novel ?invites the reader
into a kaleidoscope of colors, sounds and images. ?The experience is
both intensely personal and cosmic. ?S?amas Cain's work comes out of
the world of ancient Celtic sagas, out of the s?ances of William
Butler Yeats, out of T.S. Eliot's desert wastelands, and especially
out of James Joyce's play with language. ?He takes the reader to
mysterious islands, as well as dangerous islands.?

Mr. Cain has been the recipient of grants from the IMRAM Festival in
Ireland, the Minnesota State Arts Board, the McKnight Foundation, and
the Arrowhead Regional Arts Council, among other organizations. ?He
describes his novel as ?a non-Classic coming-of-age tale. ?It is a
story of self-education and self-development, with convictions and
disillusionment. ?But it resists all pigeonholing, for it is also a
novel of ideas ranging across literature, philosophy and politics.?

?The Dangerous Islands? has been published in Ireland by The Red
Jasper Press, an independent publishing house under the curatorship of
Dr. Kit Fryatt, lecturer in English at the Mater Dei Institute of
Education, a part of Dublin City University. ?Dr. Fryatt organizes
activities of the Irish Centre for Poetry Studies, in which Mr. Cain
has contributed. ?The book's preface has been written by
American-Irish poet Sheila E. Murphy.

Mary Hagen has been a local harper for many years. ?Linda Crumpton is
a member of a Celtic music group that performs regularly at Carmody's
Irish Pub in Duluth, Minnesota. ?Both musicians are Cloquet residents.

Copies of ?The Dangerous Islands? are available through Berkeley Books
of Paris, France; Housmans Bookshop in London, England; Boekie Woekie
of Amsterdam, The Netherlands; The Loft Bookshop and Gregory Carr
Books in Dublin; Magers & Quinn in Minneapolis, Minnesota; and the UMD
Bookstores in Duluth. ?For more information about availability, scroll
down the page at ...

http://www.freewebs.com/seamascain

_____________________________________


For additional information, contact

Mark King ...

E-Mail : markking at arrowhead.lib.mn.us

Phone : 218.879.1531

CLOQUET PUBLIC LIBRARY,
320 Fourteenth Street,
Cloquet, Minnesota,
U.S.A., 55720 - 2051

_____________________________________


From jlm8047  Thu Mar  8 13:27:01 2012
From: jlm8047 (Jerry McGuire)
Date: Thu, 08 Mar 2012 12:27:01 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
In-Reply-To: <D2688B8693D14340A1E325C960440D1A@BobHP>
References: <CB7E2F8E.7917%GrahamD@ripon.edu>
	<D2688B8693D14340A1E325C960440D1A@BobHP>
Message-ID: <4F58F9F5.1070109@louisiana.edu>

Thanks for this note, David. I can definitely use a touch of light(ness) 
on the poetic horizon.

Jerry

On 3/8/2012 11:39 AM, bob grumman wrote:
> /The 6.5 Practices of Moderately Successful Poets: A Self-Help Memoir/

-- 
________________________________________________________

Jerry McGuire
English Department    Box 44691
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70504-4691
337-482-5478
Creative Writing Website:
http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html
______________________________________________________


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From halvard  Thu Mar  8 13:53:01 2012
From: halvard (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 8 Mar 2012 12:53:01 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
In-Reply-To: <D2688B8693D14340A1E325C960440D1A@BobHP>
References: <CB7E2F8E.7917%GrahamD@ripon.edu>
	<D2688B8693D14340A1E325C960440D1A@BobHP>
Message-ID: <CANrCfqFM=LhRcrS43B_yQXe7TQ_BM-WUO_JMX+SDUKioMtxcRA@mail.gmail.com>

Writing about something--what an idea! Not much
use when it comes to writing poetry though, except
to hang one's hat on.


Serving the tri-state area.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com

On Barcelona <http://onbarcelona.blogspot.com/> (submissions sought; email
to my address above)
Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
Remains To Be Seen <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>*, Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. II) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>,** Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. III) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Sonnets
from the Basque & Other Poems <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>
*, *Mainly Black <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Obras
P?blicas <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **The Perfection
of Mozart's Third Eye and Other
Sonnets<http://www.scribd.com/doc/27039868/Halvard-Johnson-THE-PERFECTION-OF-MOZART-S-THIRD-EYE-Other-Sonnets>
; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of
Clones<http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Entrance-Clones-Halvard-Johnson/dp/0965404390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283182804&sr=8-1>
; **Tango Bouquet <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **Theory
of Harmony<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall04/theory1.pdf>
; **Rapsodie espagnole<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/rapsodi.pdf>
; **Guide to the Tokyo
Subway<http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Tokyo-Subway-Other-Poems/dp/0971487316/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283183153&sr=1-3>
; **The Sonnet Project<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/hsonnet.pdf>
; **G(e)nome <http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall03/genome.pdf>; **Winter
Journey <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.winter.html>;
**Eclipse<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.eclipse.html>
; **The Dance of the Red Swan <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.dance.html>
; **Transparencies & Projections<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.transp.html>
*




On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 11:39 AM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:

>
>
>  *From:* David Graham <GrahamD at ripon.edu>
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 08, 2012 10:42 AM
> *To:* NewPoetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
>
>  The prose feature up now on Poetry Daily is from a book I just started
> reading by Jeffrey Skinner:  *The 6.5 Practices of Moderately Successful
> Poets: A Self-Help Memoir.  *So far, I?m finding it a very entertaining
> and wise volume.  And possibly the best title of the year.
>
> http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_skinner.php
>
> Here?s a snippet from the chapter posted on PD, titled ?O, Research?:
>
> When I was forming myself (and being formed) as a poet in my twenties, the
> fields of science and poetry had amicably separated. It is difficult to
> imagine Strand or Merwin, as learned and urbane as they were, laboring to
> insinuate the latest discoveries in physics or cosmology into their
> pared-down, stone and bone, deep-image poems. And it is equally hard to
> imagine that Robert Creeley or Alan Dugan sat down with much more than
> their own minds, which lucky for them included encyclopedic knowledge of
> English and American prosody, to write the next poem. It is true that
> Adrienne Rich, Lucille Clifton, and other pioneers were bringing fresh
> cultural, ethnic, and gender perspectives into what was at the time a
> practice dominated by white men. And there was "language" poetry, which
> came packed with its own political theory and ambitions for wider cultural
> inclusion. But beyond these exceptions the era of the seventies was more
> romantic than classical, and the brief lyric issuing from a definable self
> was clearly the dominant and ascendant mode.
>
> Everything changes. Today young poets have the speed and reach of the
> Internet at their fingertips. This, coupled with a postmodernnist worldview
> that inherently distrusts the notion of a stable self, has made for an
> innovative and decentered poetry that allows for a sometimes bewildering
> range of voices, tones, rhetorical sets, "nonpoetic" disciplines and
> obsessions, jargons, and exotic, un-"poetic" bodies of knowledge, to be
> incorporated into the work. It has resulted in a restructuring of what we
> mean when we say poetry. It has made for an amazing variety of poetries.
> --Jeffrey Skinner
>
>  Weird to me, David, that you would be interested in someone who?d write
> the second paragraph above.  I don?t believe in postmodernism, myself, nor
> do I think distrust of ?the notion of a stable self? has much to do with
> what?s going on in poetry, although that distrust may be one reason so much
> of it is crap.  My impression is that most of the ?amazing variety of
> poetries? is due to a reduction of the self-to-objective-reality ratio
> among poets?or, put more simply, a preference for composing poetry about
> things and/or ideas (and images thereof) rather than about people.
>
>  --Bob
>
>  --Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From carol.dorf  Fri Mar  9 09:42:14 2012
From: carol.dorf (carol dorf)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 06:42:14 -0800
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
In-Reply-To: <CANrCfqFM=LhRcrS43B_yQXe7TQ_BM-WUO_JMX+SDUKioMtxcRA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CB7E2F8E.7917%GrahamD@ripon.edu>
	<D2688B8693D14340A1E325C960440D1A@BobHP>
	<CANrCfqFM=LhRcrS43B_yQXe7TQ_BM-WUO_JMX+SDUKioMtxcRA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABVBwJAL9beouiV4PhfJu=pcUOjFs887Mu3nYq5Lc0v0NPyqLA@mail.gmail.com>

Rich actually wrote a number of poems during that era that included
science/lives of scientists; as did Rukeyser who was active through the
60s/early 70s (who can forget "The Conjugation of the Paramecium.")  I'd
have to read more carefully to see if there is a generalization about
gender and poets of that era here.

-- 
Carol Dorf
talkingwriting.com
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From grahamd  Fri Mar  9 12:32:13 2012
From: grahamd (David Graham-RC)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 11:32:13 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Laura Kasischke wins NBCC Award
Message-ID: <353B9BE3-C130-4D9F-8E89-0ECF5A367D4C@ripon.edu>

http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2012/03/laura-kasischke-wins-nbcc-award/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=social_media&utm_campaign=general_marketing&utm_content=Google+Reader%3Futm_source%3Dfacebook



========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz

Poetry Library:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================



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From poet_in_hell_files  Fri Mar  9 15:45:49 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files (stephen russell)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 12:45:49 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
In-Reply-To: <EE9A9DF2C842478B909ED00576C25F69@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1331325949.68750.YahooMailClassic@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

>From poetry/language/thought ... Heidegger --

When Holderlin speaks of dwelling, he has before his eyes the

basic character of human existence. He sees the "poetic," moreover,

by way of its relation to this dwelling, thus understood

essentially.



This does not mean, though, that the poetic is merely an

ornament and bonus added to dwelling. Nor does the poetic

character of dwelling mean merely that the poetic turns up in

some way or other in all dwelling. Rather, the phrase "poetically i

man dwells" says: poetry first causes dwelling to be dwelling.

Poetry is what really lets us dwell. But through what do we

attain to a dwelling place? Through building. Poetic creation,

which lets us dwell, is a kind of building.


Thus we confront a double demand: for one thing, we are

to think of what is called man's existence by way of the nature

of dwelling; for another, we are to think of the nature of poetry

as a letting-dwell, as a-perhaps even the-distinctive kind of

building. If we search out the nature of poetry according to this

viewpoint, then we arrive at the nature of dwelling.



But where do we humans get our information about the

nature of dwelling and poetry? Where does man generally get

the claim to arrive at the nature of something? Man can make

such a claim only where he receives it. He receives it from the

telling of language. Of course, only when and only as long as he

respects language's own nature. Meanwhile, there rages round

the earth an unbridled yet clever talking, writing, and broadcasting

of spoken words. Man acts as though he were the shaper and

master of language, while in fact language remains the master

of man.





--- On Thu, 3/8/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Thursday, March 8, 2012, 1:19 PM

Skinner on research in poetry



I should add that the Skinner book looks like it might be a good, 
worthwhile read, in spite of the use of terminology I don?t favor.
?
--Bob


?

From: bob grumman 
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 12:39 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in 
poetry
?



?


?

From: David Graham 
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 10:42 AM
To: NewPoetry 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in 
poetry
?

The prose feature up 
now on Poetry Daily is from a book I just started reading by Jeffrey 
Skinner:? The 6.5 Practices of Moderately Successful Poets: A Self-Help 
Memoir.? So far, I?m finding it a very entertaining and wise 
volume.? And possibly the best title of the year.

http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_skinner.php

Here?s 
a snippet from the chapter posted on PD, titled ?O, Research?:

When I was 
forming myself (and being formed) as a poet in my twenties, the fields of 
science and poetry had amicably separated. It is difficult to imagine Strand or 
Merwin, as learned and urbane as they were, laboring to insinuate the latest 
discoveries in physics or cosmology into their pared-down, stone and bone, 
deep-image poems. And it is equally hard to imagine that Robert Creeley or Alan 
Dugan sat down with much more than their own minds, which lucky for them 
included encyclopedic knowledge of English and American prosody, to write the 
next poem. It is true that Adrienne Rich, Lucille Clifton, and other pioneers 
were bringing fresh cultural, ethnic, and gender perspectives into what was at 
the time a practice dominated by white men. And there was "language" poetry, 
which came packed with its own political theory and ambitions for wider cultural 
inclusion. But beyond these exceptions the era of the seventies was more 
romantic than classical, and the brief lyric issuing from a definable self was 
clearly the dominant and ascendant mode.

Everything changes. Today young 
poets have the speed and reach of the Internet at their fingertips. This, 
coupled with a postmodernnist worldview that inherently distrusts the notion of 
a stable self, has made for an innovative and decentered poetry that allows for 
a sometimes bewildering range of voices, tones, rhetorical sets, "nonpoetic" 
disciplines and obsessions, jargons, and exotic, un-"poetic" bodies of 
knowledge, to be incorporated into the work. It has resulted in a restructuring 
of what we mean when we say poetry. It has made for an amazing variety of 
poetries.
--Jeffrey Skinner



Weird to 
me, David, that you would be interested in someone who?d write the second 
paragraph above.? I don?t believe in postmodernism, myself, nor do I think 
distrust of ?the notion of a stable self? has much to do with what?s going on in 
poetry, although that distrust may be one reason so much of it is crap.? My 
impression is that most of the ?amazing variety of poetries? is due to a 
reduction of the self-to-objective-reality ratio among poets?or, put more 
simply, a preference for composing poetry about things and/or ideas (and images 
thereof) rather than about people.

?

--Bob

?

--Bob


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing 
list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From poet_in_hell_files  Fri Mar  9 15:50:07 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files (stephen russell)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 12:50:07 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
In-Reply-To: <1331325949.68750.YahooMailClassic@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1331326207.33944.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

now if I can find the actual poem by Holderlin ...

--- On Fri, 3/9/12, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Friday, March 9, 2012, 3:45 PM

>From poetry/language/thought ... Heidegger --

When Holderlin speaks of dwelling, he has before his eyes the

basic character of human existence. He sees the "poetic," moreover,

by way of its relation to this dwelling, thus understood

essentially.



This does not mean, though, that the poetic is merely an

ornament and bonus added to dwelling. Nor does the poetic

character of dwelling mean merely that the poetic turns up in

some way or other in all dwelling. Rather, the phrase "poetically i

man dwells" says: poetry first causes dwelling to be dwelling.

Poetry is what really lets us dwell. But through what do we

attain to a dwelling place? Through building. Poetic creation,

which lets us dwell, is a kind of building.


Thus we confront a double demand: for one thing, we are

to think of what is called man's existence by way of the nature

of dwelling; for another, we are to think of the nature of poetry

as a letting-dwell, as a-perhaps even the-distinctive kind of

building. If we search out the nature of poetry according to this

viewpoint, then we arrive at the nature of dwelling.



But where do we humans get our information about the

nature of dwelling and poetry? Where does man generally get

the claim to arrive at the nature of something? Man can make

such a claim only where he receives it. He receives it from the

telling of language. Of course, only when and only as long as he

respects language's own nature. Meanwhile, there rages round

the earth an unbridled yet clever talking, writing, and broadcasting

of spoken words. Man acts as though he were the shaper and

master of language, while in fact language remains the master

of man.





--- On Thu, 3/8/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Thursday, March 8, 2012, 1:19 PM

Skinner on research in poetry



I should add that the Skinner book looks like it might be a good, 
worthwhile read, in spite of the use of terminology I don?t favor.
?
--Bob


?

From: bob grumman 
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 12:39 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in 
poetry
?



?


?

From: David Graham 
Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 10:42 AM
To: NewPoetry 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in 
poetry
?

The prose feature up 
now on Poetry Daily is from a book I just started reading by Jeffrey 
Skinner:? The 6.5 Practices of Moderately Successful Poets: A Self-Help 
Memoir.? So far, I?m finding it a very entertaining and wise 
volume.? And possibly the best title of the year.

http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_skinner.php

Here?s 
a snippet from the chapter posted on PD, titled ?O, Research?:

When I was 
forming myself (and being formed) as a poet in my twenties, the fields of 
science and poetry had amicably separated. It is difficult to imagine Strand or 
Merwin, as learned and urbane as they were, laboring to insinuate the latest 
discoveries in physics or cosmology into their pared-down, stone and bone, 
deep-image poems. And it is equally hard to imagine that Robert Creeley or Alan 
Dugan sat down with much more than their own minds, which lucky for them 
included encyclopedic knowledge of English and American prosody, to write the 
next poem. It is true that Adrienne Rich, Lucille Clifton, and other pioneers 
were bringing fresh cultural, ethnic, and gender perspectives into what was at 
the time a practice dominated by white men. And there was "language" poetry, 
which came packed with its own political theory and ambitions for wider cultural 
inclusion. But beyond these exceptions the era of the seventies was more 
romantic than classical, and the brief lyric issuing from a definable self was 
clearly the dominant and ascendant mode.

Everything changes. Today young 
poets have the speed and reach of the Internet at their fingertips. This, 
coupled with a postmodernnist worldview that inherently distrusts the notion of 
a stable self, has made for an innovative and decentered poetry that allows for 
a sometimes bewildering range of voices, tones, rhetorical sets, "nonpoetic" 
disciplines and obsessions, jargons, and exotic, un-"poetic" bodies of 
knowledge, to be incorporated into the work. It has resulted in a restructuring 
of what we mean when we say poetry. It has made for an amazing variety of 
poetries.
--Jeffrey Skinner



Weird to 
me, David, that you would be interested in someone who?d write the second 
paragraph above.? I don?t believe in postmodernism, myself, nor do I think 
distrust of ?the notion of a stable self? has much to do with what?s going on in 
poetry, although that distrust may be one reason so much of it is crap.? My 
impression is that most of the ?amazing variety of poetries? is due to a 
reduction of the self-to-objective-reality ratio among poets?or, put more 
simply, a preference for composing poetry about things and/or ideas (and images 
thereof) rather than about people.

?

--Bob

?

--Bob


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing 
list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-----Inline Attachment Follows-----

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From jlm8047  Fri Mar  9 16:34:18 2012
From: jlm8047 (Jerry McGuire)
Date: Fri, 09 Mar 2012 15:34:18 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
In-Reply-To: <1331326207.33944.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1331326207.33944.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <4F5A775A.2090907@louisiana.edu>

I don't have time today to help with this beyond two things, Stephen: 
first, the phrase in German is /"...dichterisch wohnet der Mensch."/

Second, here's a note on the first line (and a German source):

       The phrase is taken from a late poem by H?lderlin, which comes to 
us by a curious route. It begins: "In lovely blueness
        blooms the steeple with metal roof." (Stuttgart edition 2, I, 
pp. 372 ff.; Hellingrath VI, pp. 24 ff.) ...

Maybe that will speed your process. I'd appreciate hearing the actual 
title, if you find it.

Best,

Jerry

On 3/9/2012 2:50 PM, stephen russell wrote:
> now if I can find the actual poem by Holderlin ...
>
> --- On *Fri, 3/9/12, stephen russell /<poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>/* 
> wrote:
>
>
>     From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
>     Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
>     To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>     Date: Friday, March 9, 2012, 3:45 PM
>
>     From poetry/language/thought ... Heidegger --
>
>     When Holderlin speaks of dwelling, he has before his eyes the
>     basic character of human existence. He sees the "poetic," moreover,
>     by way of its relation to this dwelling, thus understood
>     essentially.
>
>     This does not mean, though, that the poetic is merely an
>     ornament and bonus added to dwelling. Nor does the poetic
>     character of dwelling mean merely that the poetic turns up in
>     some way or other in all dwelling. Rather, the phrase "poetically i
>     man dwells" says: poetry first causes dwelling to be dwelling.
>     Poetry is what really lets us dwell. But through what do we
>     attain to a dwelling place? Through building. Poetic creation,
>     which lets us dwell, is a kind of building.
>
>     Thus we confront a double demand: for one thing, we are
>     to think of what is called man's existence by way of the nature
>     of dwelling; for another, we are to think of the nature of poetry
>     as a letting-dwell, as a-perhaps even the-distinctive kind of
>     building. If we search out the nature of poetry according to this
>     viewpoint, then we arrive at the nature of dwelling.
>
>     But where do we humans get our information about the
>     nature of dwelling and poetry? Where does man generally get
>     the claim to arrive at the nature of something? Man can make
>     such a claim only where he receives it. He receives it from the
>     telling of language. Of course, only when and only as long as he
>     respects language's own nature. Meanwhile, there rages round
>     the earth an unbridled yet clever talking, writing, and broadcasting
>     of spoken words. Man acts as though he were the shaper and
>     master of language, while in fact language remains the master
>     of man.
>
>
>
>
>     --- On *Thu, 3/8/12, bob grumman /<bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>/* wrote:
>
>
>         From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>         Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
>         To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>         Date: Thursday, March 8, 2012, 1:19 PM
>
>         I should add that the Skinner book looks like it might be a
>         good, worthwhile read, in spite of the use of terminology I
>         don't favor.
>         --Bob
>         *From:* bob grumman
>         *Sent:* Thursday, March 08, 2012 12:39 PM
>         *To:* NewPoetry List
>         *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
>         *From:* David Graham
>         *Sent:* Thursday, March 08, 2012 10:42 AM
>         *To:* NewPoetry
>         *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
>         The prose feature up now on Poetry Daily is from a book I just
>         started reading by Jeffrey Skinner: /The 6.5 Practices of
>         Moderately Successful Poets: A Self-Help Memoir. /So far, I'm
>         finding it a very entertaining and wise volume.  And possibly
>         the best title of the year.
>
>         http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_skinner.php
>
>         Here's a snippet from the chapter posted on PD, titled "O,
>         Research":
>
>         When I was forming myself (and being formed) as a poet in my
>         twenties, the fields of science and poetry had amicably
>         separated. It is difficult to imagine Strand or Merwin, as
>         learned and urbane as they were, laboring to insinuate the
>         latest discoveries in physics or cosmology into their
>         pared-down, stone and bone, deep-image poems. And it is
>         equally hard to imagine that Robert Creeley or Alan Dugan sat
>         down with much more than their own minds, which lucky for them
>         included encyclopedic knowledge of English and American
>         prosody, to write the next poem. It is true that Adrienne
>         Rich, Lucille Clifton, and other pioneers were bringing fresh
>         cultural, ethnic, and gender perspectives into what was at the
>         time a practice dominated by white men. And there was
>         "language" poetry, which came packed with its own political
>         theory and ambitions for wider cultural inclusion. But beyond
>         these exceptions the era of the seventies was more romantic
>         than classical, and the brief lyric issuing from a definable
>         self was clearly the dominant and ascendant mode.
>
>         Everything changes. Today young poets have the speed and reach
>         of the Internet at their fingertips. This, coupled with a
>         postmodernnist worldview that inherently distrusts the notion
>         of a stable self, has made for an innovative and decentered
>         poetry that allows for a sometimes bewildering range of
>         voices, tones, rhetorical sets, "nonpoetic" disciplines and
>         obsessions, jargons, and exotic, un-"poetic" bodies of
>         knowledge, to be incorporated into the work. It has resulted
>         in a restructuring of what we mean when we say poetry. It has
>         made for an amazing variety of poetries.
>         --Jeffrey Skinner
>
>         Weird to me, David, that you would be interested in someone
>         who'd write the second paragraph above.  I don't believe in
>         postmodernism, myself, nor do I think distrust of "the notion
>         of a stable self" has much to do with what's going on in
>         poetry, although that distrust may be one reason so much of it
>         is crap.  My impression is that most of the "amazing variety
>         of poetries" is due to a reduction of the
>         self-to-objective-reality ratio among poets---or, put more
>         simply, a preference for composing poetry about things and/or
>         ideas (and images thereof) rather than about people.
>         --Bob
>         --Bob
>
>         ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>         _______________________________________________
>         New-Poetry mailing list
>         New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>         http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>         -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
>         _______________________________________________
>         New-Poetry mailing list
>         New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>         http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>     -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     New-Poetry mailing list
>     New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu </mc/compose?to=New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>     http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506
jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
337-482-5478

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From bobgrumman  Fri Mar  9 18:17:12 2012
From: bobgrumman (bob grumman)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 18:17:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] 4 Visual poetry sequences of mine now up at scribd
In-Reply-To: <4F5A775A.2090907@louisiana.edu>
References: <1331326207.33944.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<4F5A775A.2090907@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <94E4465B724B4C7CB9D51071CBBFEFDC@BobHP>

Skinner on research in poetryhttp://www.scribd.com/doc/84592044/Sequences
One is from over twenty years ago?first published by Trudy Mercer.  It may be my first color work, thanks to her?I typed it on a regular typewriter, she had her printer print it in blue.  All are from the last century.  Weird to say that . . .
--Bob
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From htthinc  Fri Mar  9 19:39:48 2012
From: htthinc (Paul Howell)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 19:39:48 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
In-Reply-To: <1331325949.68750.YahooMailClassic@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <EE9A9DF2C842478B909ED00576C25F69@BobHP>
	<1331325949.68750.YahooMailClassic@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CACHqp-4RWzFmer5tAPDqftMa_5vcva86PqMGb7oY020M1ruGDw@mail.gmail.com>

glad to see this

On Fri, Mar 9, 2012 at 3:45 PM, stephen russell <
poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

> From poetry/language/thought ... Heidegger --
>
> When Holderlin speaks of dwelling, he has before his eyes the
> basic character of human existence. He sees the "poetic," moreover,
> by way of its relation to this dwelling, thus understood
> essentially.
>
> This does not mean, though, that the poetic is merely an
> ornament and bonus added to dwelling. Nor does the poetic
> character of dwelling mean merely that the poetic turns up in
> some way or other in all dwelling. Rather, the phrase "poetically i
> man dwells" says: poetry first causes dwelling to be dwelling.
> Poetry is what really lets us dwell. But through what do we
> attain to a dwelling place? Through building. Poetic creation,
> which lets us dwell, is a kind of building.
>
> Thus we confront a double demand: for one thing, we are
> to think of what is called man's existence by way of the nature
> of dwelling; for another, we are to think of the nature of poetry
> as a letting-dwell, as a-perhaps even the-distinctive kind of
> building. If we search out the nature of poetry according to this
> viewpoint, then we arrive at the nature of dwelling.
>
> But where do we humans get our information about the
> nature of dwelling and poetry? Where does man generally get
> the claim to arrive at the nature of something? Man can make
> such a claim only where he receives it. He receives it from the
> telling of language. Of course, only when and only as long as he
> respects language's own nature. Meanwhile, there rages round
> the earth an unbridled yet clever talking, writing, and broadcasting
> of spoken words. Man acts as though he were the shaper and
> master of language, while in fact language remains the master
> of man.
>
>
>
>
> --- On *Thu, 3/8/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>* wrote:
>
>
> From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
> To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Date: Thursday, March 8, 2012, 1:19 PM
>
>   I should add that the Skinner book looks like it might be a good,
> worthwhile read, in spite of the use of terminology I don?t favor.
>
> --Bob
>
>  *From:* bob grumman <http://mc/compose?to=bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 08, 2012 12:39 PM
> *To:* NewPoetry List <http://mc/compose?to=new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
>
>
>
>  *From:* David Graham <http://mc/compose?to=GrahamD at ripon.edu>
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 08, 2012 10:42 AM
> *To:* NewPoetry <http://mc/compose?to=new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
>
>  The prose feature up now on Poetry Daily is from a book I just started
> reading by Jeffrey Skinner:  *The 6.5 Practices of Moderately Successful
> Poets: A Self-Help Memoir.  *So far, I?m finding it a very entertaining
> and wise volume.  And possibly the best title of the year.
>
> http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_skinner.php
>
> Here?s a snippet from the chapter posted on PD, titled ?O, Research?:
>
> When I was forming myself (and being formed) as a poet in my twenties, the
> fields of science and poetry had amicably separated. It is difficult to
> imagine Strand or Merwin, as learned and urbane as they were, laboring to
> insinuate the latest discoveries in physics or cosmology into their
> pared-down, stone and bone, deep-image poems. And it is equally hard to
> imagine that Robert Creeley or Alan Dugan sat down with much more than
> their own minds, which lucky for them included encyclopedic knowledge of
> English and American prosody, to write the next poem. It is true that
> Adrienne Rich, Lucille Clifton, and other pioneers were bringing fresh
> cultural, ethnic, and gender perspectives into what was at the time a
> practice dominated by white men. And there was "language" poetry, which
> came packed with its own political theory and ambitions for wider cultural
> inclusion. But beyond these exceptions the era of the seventies was more
> romantic than classical, and the brief lyric issuing from a definable self
> was clearly the dominant and ascendant mode.
>
> Everything changes. Today young poets have the speed and reach of the
> Internet at their fingertips. This, coupled with a postmodernnist worldview
> that inherently distrusts the notion of a stable self, has made for an
> innovative and decentered poetry that allows for a sometimes bewildering
> range of voices, tones, rhetorical sets, "nonpoetic" disciplines and
> obsessions, jargons, and exotic, un-"poetic" bodies of knowledge, to be
> incorporated into the work. It has resulted in a restructuring of what we
> mean when we say poetry. It has made for an amazing variety of poetries.
> --Jeffrey Skinner
>
>  Weird to me, David, that you would be interested in someone who?d write
> the second paragraph above.  I don?t believe in postmodernism, myself, nor
> do I think distrust of ?the notion of a stable self? has much to do with
> what?s going on in poetry, although that distrust may be one reason so much
> of it is crap.  My impression is that most of the ?amazing variety of
> poetries? is due to a reduction of the self-to-objective-reality ratio
> among poets?or, put more simply, a preference for composing poetry about
> things and/or ideas (and images thereof) rather than about people.
>
>  --Bob
>
>  --Bob
>
> ------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----
>
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> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu<http://mc/compose?to=New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From jforjames  Fri Mar  9 19:45:41 2012
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 19:45:41 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
In-Reply-To: <CB7E2F8E.7917%GrahamD@ripon.edu>
References: <CB7E2F8E.7917%GrahamD@ripon.edu>
Message-ID: <8CECC6E4101A208-100C-3F7C@webmail-d139.sysops.aol.com>

Thanks for posting this, David. I know Jeff Skinner from Louisville years. There's a large excerpt from the book
at the Sarabande site...
http://www.sarabandebooks.org/?page_id=6476
Good stuff...Different from the usual 'writing life' material.
Finnegan


-----Original Message-----
From: David Graham <GrahamD at ripon.edu>
To: NewPoetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thu, Mar 8, 2012 2:21 pm
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry


The prose feature up now on Poetry Daily is from a book I just started reading by Jeffrey Skinner:  The 6.5 Practices of Moderately Successful Poets: A Self-Help Memoir.  So far, I?m finding it a very entertaining and wise volume.  And possibly the best title of the year.

http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_skinner.php

Here?s a snippet from the chapter posted on PD, titled ?O, Research?:

When I was forming myself (and being formed) as a poet in my twenties, the fields of science and poetry had amicably separated. It is difficult to imagine Strand or Merwin, as learned and urbane as they were, laboring to insinuate the latest discoveries in physics or cosmology into their pared-down, stone and bone, deep-image poems. And it is equally hard to imagine that Robert Creeley or Alan Dugan sat down with much more than their own minds, which lucky for them included encyclopedic knowledge of English and American prosody, to write the next poem. It is true that Adrienne Rich, Lucille Clifton, and other pioneers were bringing fresh cultural, ethnic, and gender perspectives into what was at the time a practice dominated by white men. And there was "language" poetry, which came packed with its own political theory and ambitions for wider cultural inclusion. But beyond these exceptions the era of the seventies was more romantic than classical, and the brief lyric issuing from a definable self was clearly the dominant and ascendant mode.

Everything changes. Today young poets have the speed and reach of the Internet at their fingertips. This, coupled with a postmodernnist worldview that inherently distrusts the notion of a stable self, has made for an innovative and decentered poetry that allows for a sometimes bewildering range of voices, tones, rhetorical sets, "nonpoetic" disciplines and obsessions, jargons, and exotic, un-"poetic" bodies of knowledge, to be incorporated into the work. It has resulted in a restructuring of what we mean when we say poetry. It has made for an amazing variety of poetries.
--Jeffrey Skinner


-- 

========================================
David Graham
grahamd at ripon.edu

Home Page:
http://web.me.com/drjazz

Poetry Library:
http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html
==========================================


 
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From bobgrumman  Fri Mar  9 20:17:37 2012
From: bobgrumman (bob grumman)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 20:17:37 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
In-Reply-To: <1331325949.68750.YahooMailClassic@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1331325949.68750.YahooMailClassic@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <252A1B96E3984B448184B038EE680D8B@BobHP>

Skinner on research in poetry

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 3:45 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry

      From poetry/language/thought ... Heidegger --

      When Holderlin speaks of dwelling, he has before his eyes the
      basic character of human existence. He sees the "poetic," moreover,
      by way of its relation to this dwelling, thus understood
      essentially.

      This does not mean, though, that the poetic is merely an
      ornament and bonus added to dwelling. Nor does the poetic
      character of dwelling mean merely that the poetic turns up in
      some way or other in all dwelling. Rather, the phrase "poetically i
      man dwells" says: poetry first causes dwelling to be dwelling.
      Poetry is what really lets us dwell. But through what do we
      attain to a dwelling place? Through building. Poetic creation,
      which lets us dwell, is a kind of building.

      Thus we confront a double demand: for one thing, we are
      to think of what is called man's existence by way of the nature
      of dwelling; for another, we are to think of the nature of poetry
      as a letting-dwell, as a-perhaps even the-distinctive kind of
      building. If we search out the nature of poetry according to this
      viewpoint, then we arrive at the nature of dwelling.

      But where do we humans get our information about the
      nature of dwelling and poetry? Where does man generally get
      the claim to arrive at the nature of something? Man can make
      such a claim only where he receives it. He receives it from the
      telling of language. Of course, only when and only as long as he
      respects language's own nature. Meanwhile, there rages round
      the earth an unbridled yet clever talking, writing, and broadcasting
      of spoken words. Man acts as though he were the shaper and
      master of language, while in fact language remains the master
      of man.


      Man also acts as though he were the master of his toothbrush when actually his toothbrush remains the master of man.  The toothbrush, in fact, is the master of language, which it invented.  Language, of course, then invented man, and poetry, which man used to get at the nature of his toothbrush.  Isn?t philogushy fun!?

      --Bob



      --- On Thu, 3/8/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


        From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
        Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
        To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
        Date: Thursday, March 8, 2012, 1:19 PM


        I should add that the Skinner book looks like it might be a good, worthwhile read, in spite of the use of terminology I don?t favor.

        --Bob

        From: bob grumman 
        Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 12:39 PM
        To: NewPoetry List 
        Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry



        From: David Graham 
        Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 10:42 AM
        To: NewPoetry 
        Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry

        The prose feature up now on Poetry Daily is from a book I just started reading by Jeffrey Skinner:  The 6.5 Practices of Moderately Successful Poets: A Self-Help Memoir.  So far, I?m finding it a very entertaining and wise volume.  And possibly the best title of the year.

        http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_skinner.php

        Here?s a snippet from the chapter posted on PD, titled ?O, Research?:

        When I was forming myself (and being formed) as a poet in my twenties, the fields of science and poetry had amicably separated. It is difficult to imagine Strand or Merwin, as learned and urbane as they were, laboring to insinuate the latest discoveries in physics or cosmology into their pared-down, stone and bone, deep-image poems. And it is equally hard to imagine that Robert Creeley or Alan Dugan sat down with much more than their own minds, which lucky for them included encyclopedic knowledge of English and American prosody, to write the next poem. It is true that Adrienne Rich, Lucille Clifton, and other pioneers were bringing fresh cultural, ethnic, and gender perspectives into what was at the time a practice dominated by white men. And there was "language" poetry, which came packed with its own political theory and ambitions for wider cultural inclusion. But beyond these exceptions the era of the seventies was more romantic than classical, and the brief lyric issuing from a definable self was clearly the dominant and ascendant mode.

        Everything changes. Today young poets have the speed and reach of the Internet at their fingertips. This, coupled with a postmodernnist worldview that inherently distrusts the notion of a stable self, has made for an innovative and decentered poetry that allows for a sometimes bewildering range of voices, tones, rhetorical sets, "nonpoetic" disciplines and obsessions, jargons, and exotic, un-"poetic" bodies of knowledge, to be incorporated into the work. It has resulted in a restructuring of what we mean when we say poetry. It has made for an amazing variety of poetries.
        --Jeffrey Skinner


        Weird to me, David, that you would be interested in someone who?d write the second paragraph above.  I don?t believe in postmodernism, myself, nor do I think distrust of ?the notion of a stable self? has much to do with what?s going on in poetry, although that distrust may be one reason so much of it is crap.  My impression is that most of the ?amazing variety of poetries? is due to a reduction of the self-to-objective-reality ratio among poets?or, put more simply, a preference for composing poetry about things and/or ideas (and images thereof) rather than about people.
        --Bob
        --Bob

------------------------------------------------------------------------
        _______________________________________________
        New-Poetry mailing list
        New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
        http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


        -----Inline Attachment Follows-----


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From ahadada  Fri Mar  9 22:41:03 2012
From: ahadada (ahadada at gol.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 03:41:03 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] "For Japan"--Jerome Rothenberg, Hiromi Ito,
	Amy Uyematsu, Marthe Reed, Jesse Glass at Beyond Baroque
Message-ID: <RsfEJ96L.1331350863.3523810.ahadada@gol.com>

Friday, 16th March 7 P.M. Beyond Baroque Literary Center, Venice Beach.

For more info. see their website.

This reading is a fund-raiser for the families of Fukushima and
surrounding areas.  Jess




From jforjames  Fri Mar  9 23:01:01 2012
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 9 Mar 2012 23:01:01 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Rupert Brooke of his generation
Message-ID: <8CECC898A85FC4D-16BC-4EA7@webmail-m099.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.artdaily.org/index.asp?int_sec=2&int_new=53964


LONDON.- The papers of the Second World War poet, Richard (Dicky) Spender, who has been described as the Rupert Brooke of his generation, are being sold at Bonhams Fine Books and Manuscripts sale in London on 27 March. They are estimated at ?4,000-6,000. 


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From poet_in_hell_files  Sat Mar 10 15:58:33 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files (stephen russell)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 12:58:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
In-Reply-To: <252A1B96E3984B448184B038EE680D8B@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1331413113.40673.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Bob, that was immature. I expect more from you. You're starting to sound like me. Which might not be as bad as me pretending to be Pound, but it's disappointing, though amusing. & besides, the toothbrush is among man's most essential tools. A worthy subject for philos0phic musing. Have you read Zizek?

Make a fetish of the toothbrush, and the world becomes a miserable cavity. 

--- On Fri, 3/9/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Friday, March 9, 2012, 8:17 PM

Skinner on research in poetry



?


?

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Friday, March 09, 2012 3:45 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in 
poetry
?


  
  
    
      From poetry/language/thought ... Heidegger --

When Holderlin 
      speaks of dwelling, he has before his eyes the
basic character of human 
      existence. He sees the "poetic," moreover,
by way of its relation to 
      this dwelling, thus understood
essentially.

This does not mean, 
      though, that the poetic is merely an
ornament and bonus added to 
      dwelling. Nor does the poetic
character of dwelling mean merely that 
      the poetic turns up in
some way or other in all dwelling. Rather, the 
      phrase "poetically i
man dwells" says: poetry first causes dwelling to 
      be dwelling.
Poetry is what really lets us dwell. But through what do 
      we
attain to a dwelling place? Through building. Poetic 
      creation,
which lets us dwell, is a kind of building.

Thus we 
      confront a double demand: for one thing, we are
to think of what is 
      called man's existence by way of the nature
of dwelling; for another, 
      we are to think of the nature of poetry
as a letting-dwell, as 
      a-perhaps even the-distinctive kind of
building. If we search out the 
      nature of poetry according to this
viewpoint, then we arrive at the 
      nature of dwelling.

But where do we humans get our information 
      about the
nature of dwelling and poetry? Where does man generally 
      get
the claim to arrive at the nature of something? Man can 
      make
such a claim only where he receives it. He receives it from 
      the
telling of language. Of course, only when and only as long as 
      he
respects language's own nature. Meanwhile, there rages round
the 
      earth an unbridled yet clever talking, writing, and broadcasting
of 
      spoken words. Man acts as though he were the shaper and
master of 
      language, while in fact language remains the master
of 
      man.


      Man also acts as though he were the master of his 
      toothbrush when actually his toothbrush remains the master of man.? 
      The toothbrush, in fact, is the master of language, which it 
      invented.? Language, of course, then invented man, and poetry, which 
      man used to get at the nature of his toothbrush.? Isn?t philogushy 
      fun!?
      ?
      --Bob
      


--- On Thu, 3/8/12, bob grumman 
      <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

      
From: 
        bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
Subject: Re: 
        [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
To: "NewPoetry List" 
        <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Date: Thursday, March 8, 2012, 
        1:19 PM


        
        
        
        
        I should add that the Skinner book looks like it might be a good, 
        worthwhile read, in spite of the use of terminology I don?t favor.
        ?
        --Bob
        
        
        ?
        
        From: bob grumman 
        
        Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 12:39 PM
        To: NewPoetry 
        List 
        Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in 
        poetry
        ?
        
        
        
        ?
        
        
        ?
        
        From: David Graham 
        Sent: Thursday, March 08, 2012 10:42 AM
        To: NewPoetry 
        
        Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in 
        poetry
        ?
        
        The prose 
        feature up now on Poetry Daily is from a book I just started reading by 
        Jeffrey Skinner:? The 6.5 Practices of Moderately Successful 
        Poets: A Self-Help Memoir.? So far, I?m finding it a very 
        entertaining and wise volume.? And possibly the best title of the 
        year.

http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_skinner.php

Here?s 
        a snippet from the chapter posted on PD, titled ?O, 
        Research?:

When I was forming myself (and being formed) as a poet 
        in my twenties, the fields of science and poetry had amicably separated. 
        It is difficult to imagine Strand or Merwin, as learned and urbane as 
        they were, laboring to insinuate the latest discoveries in physics or 
        cosmology into their pared-down, stone and bone, deep-image poems. And 
        it is equally hard to imagine that Robert Creeley or Alan Dugan sat down 
        with much more than their own minds, which lucky for them included 
        encyclopedic knowledge of English and American prosody, to write the 
        next poem. It is true that Adrienne Rich, Lucille Clifton, and other 
        pioneers were bringing fresh cultural, ethnic, and gender perspectives 
        into what was at the time a practice dominated by white men. And there 
        was "language" poetry, which came packed with its own political theory 
        and ambitions for wider cultural inclusion. But beyond these exceptions 
        the era of the seventies was more romantic than classical, and the brief 
        lyric issuing from a definable self was clearly the dominant and 
        ascendant mode.

Everything changes. Today young poets have the 
        speed and reach of the Internet at their fingertips. This, coupled with 
        a postmodernnist worldview that inherently distrusts the notion of a 
        stable self, has made for an innovative and decentered poetry that 
        allows for a sometimes bewildering range of voices, tones, rhetorical 
        sets, "nonpoetic" disciplines and obsessions, jargons, and exotic, 
        un-"poetic" bodies of knowledge, to be incorporated into the work. It 
        has resulted in a restructuring of what we mean when we say poetry. It 
        has made for an amazing variety of poetries.
--Jeffrey 
        Skinner


        
        Weird to me, David, that you would be interested in someone 
        who?d write the second paragraph above.? I don?t believe in 
        postmodernism, myself, nor do I think distrust of ?the notion of a 
        stable self? has much to do with what?s going on in poetry, although 
        that distrust may be one reason so much of it is crap.? My 
        impression is that most of the ?amazing variety of poetries? is due to a 
        reduction of the self-to-objective-reality ratio among poets?or, put 
        more simply, a preference for composing poetry about things and/or ideas 
        (and images thereof) rather than about 
        people.
        
        ?
        
        --Bob
        
        ?
        
        --Bob
        
        _______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing 
        list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From jforjames  Sat Mar 10 19:42:55 2012
From: jforjames (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 19:42:55 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] AWP recap
Message-ID: <8CECD37086A0C9E-1D84-64D@webmail-d152.sysops.aol.com>




http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ru-freeman/awp-writers-conference-_b_1319755.html

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From almaginnes  Sat Mar 10 20:11:35 2012
From: almaginnes (almaginnes at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 10 Mar 2012 20:11:35 -0500 (EST)
Subject: [New-Poetry] AWP recap
In-Reply-To: <8CECD37086A0C9E-1D84-64D@webmail-d152.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CECD37086A0C9E-1D84-64D@webmail-d152.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8CECD3B09724CCC-1E20-A8BE@Webmail-d109.sysops.aol.com>

Well, that was about the least helpful of all the recaps of AWP I've seen.
 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: jforjames <jforjames at aol.com>
To: new-poetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sat, Mar 10, 2012 7:50 pm
Subject: [New-Poetry] AWP recap





http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ru-freeman/awp-writers-conference-_b_1319755.html
 

 
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From bobgrumman  Sun Mar 11 07:13:24 2012
From: bobgrumman (bob grumman)
Date: Sun, 11 Mar 2012 07:13:24 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
In-Reply-To: <1331413113.40673.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1331413113.40673.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <A3FDC7C79E20406B923A542EC50BDE0D@BobHP>

Skinner on research in poetryWho is Zizek?  I like his name.  No doubt it tells him what to do and say.

Hey, I may be stupid but I isn?t immature!

Robert

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Saturday, March 10, 2012 3:58 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry

      Bob, that was immature. I expect more from you. You're starting to sound like me. Which might not be as bad as me pretending to be Pound, but it's disappointing, though amusing. & besides, the toothbrush is among man's most essential tools. A worthy subject for philos0phic musing. Have you read Zizek?

      Make a fetish of the toothbrush, and the world becomes a miserable cavity. 

      --- On Fri, 3/9/12, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


        From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
        Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Skinner on research in poetry
        To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
        Date: Friday, March 9, 2012, 8:17 PM