From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Wed Aug  1 02:49:02 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 08:49:02 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bob Grumman
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyT2f0KgUPgxfHc_Ny6jJNX0VMpXDe0Yg09oFivS=+EFLQ@mail.gmail.com>

Our Old Bob Grumman hits again, this time high:
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2012/07/28/mhpoetica/


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Wed Aug  1 02:52:00 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 08:52:00 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] My Guest Blog at Scientific American
In-Reply-To: <96EC3D8DECD4434CAFE7F9550D48D2D9@BobHP>
References: <8CF3A7E7D1AE870-C40-242AC@webmail-d096.sysops.aol.com>
	<96EC3D8DECD4434CAFE7F9550D48D2D9@BobHP>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsySLcarySrQe3LhWJKX6wUBkSPnB+auE3HKbaQE8LmVzZw@mail.gmail.com>

Sorry for my mail, I sent before opening the New Poetry List box.
Congratulations to Bob, and thanks for your kind offer,
now, where did I put that analytic poem on the percentage of gray matter
that I did a couple of years ago?


On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 4:54 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:

>   If you link to
> http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2012/07/28/mhpoetica/<http://www.facebook.com/l/yAQGImGjZ/blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2012/07/28/mhpoetica/>,
>
> you encounter my new Scientific American guest blog.  I hope to use it not
> merely to further
> mathematical poetry, but related kinds of poetry like visual poetry. I
> should even be able to
> do favors for various kinds of conventional poetry as I did in this, my
> first entry, slightly,
> for haiku, and for the poetry of E. E. Cummings, who isn?t really
> conventional yet,
> but well-known and admired in spite of it.
> .
> Also, any of you who?ve done math poems (including conventional poems *
> about*
> math, or know of others who have, let me know. I?m going to try to make
> this
> blog an ongoing anthology of a wide variety of poetries. I?m sure to be
> allowed two
> more entries, but I get the impression that I can keep going indefinitely
> unless I
> completely run out of ideas, or it becomes obvious that few are interested
> in the
> blog. I got my very first comment this morning, by the way?it was very
> complimentary.
>
> --Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Wed Aug  1 09:00:06 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 15:00:06 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Yeats and magic
In-Reply-To: <8CF3A7D119A76DB-C40-2423E@webmail-d096.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CF3A7D119A76DB-C40-2423E@webmail-d096.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyRM=CF_3VbfAKYTQ5bAZy2zdbcNaW-oF5scsu-ve2cHUA@mail.gmail.com>

I have wanted to comment on this article. Our Richard Dillon is an
astrologer, and I think that Robin Hamilton is a good scholar of all the
authors mentioned by Jamie James. Thank you for having forwarded it.


On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 4:08 AM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:

> http://www.laphamsquarterly.org/essays/wb-yeats-magus.php?page=all
> If the paramount project of W. B. Yeats? professional life was the
> perfection of the art of poetry, it was intertwined with a personal
> preoccupation, the study and practice of magic? not in any metaphorical
> sense, but the dedicated pursuit of supernatural powers based upon the
> ancient traditions of alchemy and necromancy, which began in his youth and
> persisted to the end of his long life.
>
>  Yeats wrote frankly about his vocation as a magician in several memoirs
> and in A Vision, a dense astrological treatise he labored over for twenty
> years
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Aug  1 14:20:30 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 14:20:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] My Guest Blog at Scientific American
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsySLcarySrQe3LhWJKX6wUBkSPnB+auE3HKbaQE8LmVzZw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CF3A7E7D1AE870-C40-242AC@webmail-d096.sysops.aol.com><96EC3D8DECD4434CAFE7F9550D48D2D9@BobHP>
	<CA+9UsySLcarySrQe3LhWJKX6wUBkSPnB+auE3HKbaQE8LmVzZw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <2B9DAB54213B4A4C88C8153FAB178AF7@BobHP>

Ooops, I forgot to say, ?Everybody but Italians.?  But if
you change your name to ?Ballard,? I?ll try to let something
by you in.

--Bob



From: Anny Ballardini 
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2012 2:52 AM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] My Guest Blog at Scientific American

Sorry for my mail, I sent before opening the New Poetry List box.  
Congratulations to Bob, and thanks for your kind offer,
now, where did I put that analytic poem on the percentage of gray matter that I did a couple of years ago?



On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 4:54 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

  If you link to http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2012/07/28/mhpoetica/, 
  you encounter my new Scientific American guest blog.  I hope to use it not merely to further 
  mathematical poetry, but related kinds of poetry like visual poetry. I should even be able to 
  do favors for various kinds of conventional poetry as I did in this, my first entry, slightly, 
  for haiku, and for the poetry of E. E. Cummings, who isn?t really conventional yet,
  but well-known and admired in spite of it.
  .
  Also, any of you who?ve done math poems (including conventional poems about  
  math, or know of others who have, let me know. I?m going to try to make this 
  blog an ongoing anthology of a wide variety of poetries. I?m sure to be allowed two 
  more entries, but I get the impression that I can keep going indefinitely unless I 
  completely run out of ideas, or it becomes obvious that few are interested in the 
  blog. I got my very first comment this morning, by the way?it was very 
  complimentary.

  --Bob

  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry






-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Wed Aug  1 14:17:54 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 11:17:54 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] What Are the Best Poems of the Past 25 Years?
In-Reply-To: <1343773726.42458.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <30812133.1343157275324.JavaMail.root@mswamui-backed.atl.sa.earthlink.net><1343331334.47616.YahooMailNeo@web162502.ma
	il.bf1.yahoo.com><47C144D5F100470196D62FD241AC8B33@BobHP>
	<1343349580.94534.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<9651A849DF2047A8873D309170B76298@BobHP>
	<1343760447.80080.YahooMailNeo@web162502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<1343773726.42458.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1343845074.77077.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Add something by Mark Strand. Since I enjoy all of his books, and he recently put out another collected poems, include the recent collected poems to the best of list.
?
And something by A.R. Ammons as well.
Garbage is good enough. Include his volume entitled Garbage.


________________________________
From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 6:28 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What Are the Best Poems of the Past 25 Years?


2 other books that would make my list as best of in the last 25 years --


High Windows, Philip Larkin.

& because I'm not sure when Frederick Seidel started the Cosmos poems, I'll go with Seidel's collected poems.

Both of these volumes are also among my favorite. Especially the Seidel. 


________________________________
From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Tuesday, July 31, 2012 2:47 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What Are the Best Poems of the Past 25 Years?


Easy enough to fix:
?

Larger Than Life


The ocean is big
but not too big too fail.

The iceberg is big
but not too big too fail.

The?economies' ship keeps sailing in the dark.

This is not a movie,
but the lights have dimmed. 


________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 9:02 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What Are the Best Poems of the Past 25 Years?



From: stephen russell
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2012 8:39 PM
To: NewPoetry List
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What Are the Best Poems of the Past 25 Years?



?By Others.?? I feel sorry for any poet who doesn?t include many of his own
poems among his favorites, however much he should realize how subjective
his choice is.

I just wrote something. The irony may be heavy handed. It may not be very good. At best, I know it's slight. None-the-less, because it's brand new, and personal, it's among my favorites.

***************************************


Blockbuster

The too big to fail bankers have built a ship.
A sturdy, luxurious vessel.

They named it after a very famous ship.
They've named it the Titanic 2.

This ship, they promise, is larger
than the other ship.

All are welcomed aboard.



Next line: Barney Frank is leading the Democrats aboard.? As usual, his gang
are in front, but the Republicans aren?t far behind.

The one thing that sinks your poem (sorry, Stephen) is that even bankers
would never name their ship the Titanic 2.? The thing sounds to me like
a third stimulus bill, this one for three trillion. . . .

--Bob 

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Wed Aug  1 15:54:20 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 21:54:20 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] My Guest Blog at Scientific American
In-Reply-To: <2B9DAB54213B4A4C88C8153FAB178AF7@BobHP>
References: <8CF3A7E7D1AE870-C40-242AC@webmail-d096.sysops.aol.com>
	<96EC3D8DECD4434CAFE7F9550D48D2D9@BobHP>
	<CA+9UsySLcarySrQe3LhWJKX6wUBkSPnB+auE3HKbaQE8LmVzZw@mail.gmail.com>
	<2B9DAB54213B4A4C88C8153FAB178AF7@BobHP>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsySoub74xb1N20ASOub=BX-b0QdWbMohbYiPx_mUyaAMAQ@mail.gmail.com>

Well, believe it or not, we are French Ballards, the "ini" is a typical
addition on the Italian territory - sigh...
Now don't tell me you do not want any French, and in this case go and talk
to Louis Soleil. Parbleu!



On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 8:20 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:

>   Ooops, I forgot to say, ?Everybody but Italians.?  But if
> you change your name to ?Ballard,? I?ll try to let something
> by you in.
>
> --Bob
>
>
>
>  *From:* Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 01, 2012 2:52 AM
> *To:* NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] My Guest Blog at Scientific American
>
> Sorry for my mail, I sent before opening the New Poetry List box.
> Congratulations to Bob, and thanks for your kind offer,
> now, where did I put that analytic poem on the percentage of gray matter
> that I did a couple of years ago?
>
>
> On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 4:54 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:
>
>>   If you link to
>> http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2012/07/28/mhpoetica/<http://www.facebook.com/l/yAQGImGjZ/blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2012/07/28/mhpoetica/>,
>>
>> you encounter my new Scientific American guest blog.  I hope to use it
>> not merely to further
>> mathematical poetry, but related kinds of poetry like visual poetry. I
>> should even be able to
>> do favors for various kinds of conventional poetry as I did in this, my
>> first entry, slightly,
>> for haiku, and for the poetry of E. E. Cummings, who isn?t really
>> conventional yet,
>> but well-known and admired in spite of it.
>> .
>> Also, any of you who?ve done math poems (including conventional poems *
>> about*
>> math, or know of others who have, let me know. I?m going to try to make
>> this
>> blog an ongoing anthology of a wide variety of poetries. I?m sure to be
>> allowed two
>> more entries, but I get the impression that I can keep going indefinitely
>> unless I
>> completely run out of ideas, or it becomes obvious that few are
>> interested in the
>> blog. I got my very first comment this morning, by the way?it was very
>> complimentary.
>>
>> --Bob
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
>  ------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Aug  1 16:19:54 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 16:19:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] My Guest Blog at Scientific American
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsySoub74xb1N20ASOub=BX-b0QdWbMohbYiPx_mUyaAMAQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CF3A7E7D1AE870-C40-242AC@webmail-d096.sysops.aol.com><96EC3D8DECD4434CAFE7F9550D48D2D9@BobHP><CA+9UsySLcarySrQe3LhW
	JKX6wUBkSPnB+auE3HKbaQE8LmVzZw@mail.gmail.com><2B9DAB54213B4A4C88C8153FAB178AF7@BobHP>
	<CA+9UsySoub74xb1N20ASOub=BX-b0QdWbMohbYiPx_mUyaAMAQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <EA6180BD4E364532A86A29C820DAC518@BobHP>



From: Anny Ballardini 
Sent: Wednesday, August 01, 2012 3:54 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] My Guest Blog at Scientific American

Well, believe it or not, we are French Ballards, the "ini" is a typical addition on the Italian territory - sigh... 
Now don't tell me you do not want any French, and in this case go and talk to Louis Soleil. Parbleu!


I don?t know what to say, Anny: my whole attitude toward you
has been based on your being an Italian?a real Italian.  I
must retire and think upon this.  (I?m not big on the French,
either, but didn?t have to go to school with them!)

--Bob
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Wed Aug  1 17:32:38 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 23:32:38 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] My Guest Blog at Scientific American
In-Reply-To: <EA6180BD4E364532A86A29C820DAC518@BobHP>
References: <8CF3A7E7D1AE870-C40-242AC@webmail-d096.sysops.aol.com>
	<96EC3D8DECD4434CAFE7F9550D48D2D9@BobHP>
	<2B9DAB54213B4A4C88C8153FAB178AF7@BobHP>
	<CA+9UsySoub74xb1N20ASOub=BX-b0QdWbMohbYiPx_mUyaAMAQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<EA6180BD4E364532A86A29C820DAC518@BobHP>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyRN5yTRmoOL54EmJcSw9G-H4c=cKD6fCoF1MkJdtd9GjQ@mail.gmail.com>

:-)


On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 10:19 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:

>
>
>  *From:* Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 01, 2012 3:54 PM
> *To:* NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] My Guest Blog at Scientific American
>
> Well, believe it or not, we are French Ballards, the "ini" is a typical
> addition on the Italian territory - sigh...
> Now don't tell me you do not want any French, and in this case go and talk
> to Louis Soleil. Parbleu!
>
>
> I don?t know what to say, Anny: my whole attitude toward you
> has been based on your being an Italian?a *real* Italian.  I
> must retire and think upon this.  (I?m not big on the French,
> either, but didn?t have to go to school with them!)
>
> --Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Wed Aug  1 18:06:36 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 00:06:36 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bill Lavender
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyRorhU1gcO1WVJ9gwB3jPJdinZqua1=e6N9_9itivKvrQ@mail.gmail.com>

I posted the following message to the Wompo-List. Since Skip Fox showed
sensitivity to the issue, and suggested I should post here as well, I am
pasting what I wrote. I know there are sensitive people here, too, who can
and might be able to help. Thank you.

Dear Wompos,

I know I haven?t followed this list lately, because of work? Yes. Study?
Yes. Demotivation? Yes, a general deep demotivation after my father?s
death, although it happened a year and a half ago. But then life pulls you
in with other distressing events, and you feel that there is no limit, and
that you must stand up and fight - again.

This time I am fighting for Bill Lavender, Director of UNO (University of
New Orleans)?s Low-Residency Program. Bill Lavender is also an accomplished
poet, and Editor of UNO Press. The Administration of the University has
notified him via e-mail, at the end of his residency abroad with a good
amount of students, that after 15 years of uninterrupted service, he was
fired. Those who have had him as a teacher, mentor, those who love him as a
friend, or have understood the man in his poetry, see this move as an
injustice, Bill Lavender?s knowledge has been appreciated by all those who
have come in contact with him.
We, his people, have been working on Facebook and online.

If you know Bill Lavender, we have just opened a page on Facebook, Save the
UNO?s Low-Res Program:

http://www.facebook.com/SaveTheUnoLowResProgram

or if you wish, some of us have already written to:

Peter Fos, President, pfos at uno.edu
Louis Paradise, Provost, lparadis at uno.edu

of the University of New Orleans.

I am sharing this with you, since I know there are many good-willed people
on this list. My best and thank you,
Anny Ballardini


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Thu Aug  2 10:25:06 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 16:25:06 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] a request
In-Reply-To: <CABahUhXBi0WxQnDd7hqs+9o+Q0hr3f4fR=ib_H89u+PH9=Q5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABahUhXBi0WxQnDd7hqs+9o+Q0hr3f4fR=ib_H89u+PH9=Q5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyR7tNdupJkENrzUR5=wRSjXTFgrw2nbhHZfiObkiS21-w@mail.gmail.com>

I do not think I am infringing any privacy by sending the present over.
Thank you to those who will take the time to go through it. My best, Anny

On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:00 PM, Bill Lavender <bill.lavender at gmail.com>wrote:

> Hi. This is going to just a few people, mostly alums, who will have
> nothing to lose by posting this info. Some of the students have started a
> petition and I would really appreciate if you could post a link on
> facebook.
>
> Some of you don't even know what I'm taking about; see below for that:
>
> Here is the petition:
>
> http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/president-of-the-university-of-new-orleans-louisiana-maintain-bill-lavender-as-the-director-of-uno-s-low-residency-mfa
>
> Also, here is the FB page devoted to the issue:
> http://www.facebook.com/SaveTheUnoLowResProgram
>
> And for those of you who haven't heard, the story:
>
> Below is an email I received from my Dean while I was in Edinburgh this
> summer. I then  heard from my GA that they have changed the locks on my
> office. I'll leave it to you to judge the fairness of this action after
> my 15 years at UNO during which I created and developed one of the most
> unique and successful low res programs in the country.
>
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Susan E Krantz <SKrantz at uno.edu>
> Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:39 PM
> Subject: FW: low res committees in the Fall
> To: Bill Lavender <WLavende at uno.edu>
> Cc: Peter A Schock <PSchock at uno.edu>, Fredrick P Barton <FBarton at uno.edu>
>
>
>
>
> Dear Bill?The news I have for you is not good, and I apologize for
> relaying it through e-mail, rather than face-to-face.  But I completely
> understand your wish to know the disposition of your employment as soon
> as possible. Your position will be eliminated.  We have put the Press on
> hiatus and are relocating the CWW Low-Res to an existing faculty member.
>
>
>
> I would very much like you to work through the month of August, so that
> we can make the transition as smooth as possible.  By working through
> August, you will also complete 15 years of employment at UNO.  I encourage
> you to seek advice from HR as soon as you return from your trip tounderstand what benefits you are entitled
> to.
>
>
>
> I am very sorry to bring you this news; although it does not make the
> news any easier to swallow, I want to assure you that you are not alone.
> During this period, 19 Liberal Arts employees?both faculty and staff?are
> losing their jobs.  I am afraid that there will be more to come.
>
>
>
> Please make an appointment to see me at your very earliest convenience
> when you get back.
>
>
> Susan
>
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
-------------- next part --------------
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Aug  2 10:50:55 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 10:50:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] a request
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsyR7tNdupJkENrzUR5=wRSjXTFgrw2nbhHZfiObkiS21-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABahUhXBi0WxQnDd7hqs+9o+Q0hr3f4fR=ib_H89u+PH9=Q5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9UsyR7tNdupJkENrzUR5=wRSjXTFgrw2nbhHZfiObkiS21-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <6E8BD88DE7A741258036825FCFE214B5@BobHP>

The establishment strikes again.  I doubt there?s any other teacher at New Orleans at the level 
in his discipline that Bill is at his.  When I spout off at the way academics treat the otherstream, 
I always remember him as a major exception.  But he is open to and intelligent about a lot more 
than the otherstream.  I hope his university can find a way to keep him, or that some other 
university grabs him.

--Bob

From: Anny Ballardini 
Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2012 10:25 AM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] a request

I do not think I am infringing any privacy by sending the present over. Thank you to those who will take the time to go through it. My best, Anny


On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:00 PM, Bill Lavender <bill.lavender at gmail.com> wrote:

  Hi. This is going to just a few people, mostly alums, who will have nothing to lose by posting this info. Some of the students have started a petition and I would really appreciate if you could post a link on facebook. 

  Some of you don't even know what I'm taking about; see below for that:

  Here is the petition:
  http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/president-of-the-university-of-new-orleans-louisiana-maintain-bill-lavender-as-the-director-of-uno-s-low-residency-mfa

  Also, here is the FB page devoted to the issue:
  http://www.facebook.com/SaveTheUnoLowResProgram

  And for those of you who haven't heard, the story:

  Below is an email I received from my Dean while I was in Edinburgh this summer. I then  heard from my GA that they have changed the locks on my office. I'll leave it to you to judge the fairness of this action after my 15 years at UNO during which I created and developed one of the most unique and successful low res programs in the country.


  ---------- Forwarded message ----------
  From: Susan E Krantz <SKrantz at uno.edu>
  Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:39 PM
  Subject: FW: low res committees in the Fall
  To: Bill Lavender <WLavende at uno.edu>
  Cc: Peter A Schock <PSchock at uno.edu>, Fredrick P Barton <FBarton at uno.edu>





  Dear Bill?The news I have for you is not good, and I apologize for relaying it through e-mail, rather than face-to-face.  But I completely understand your wish to know the disposition of your employment as soon as possible. Your position will be eliminated.  We have put the Press on hiatus and are relocating the CWW Low-Res to an existing faculty member.



  I would very much like you to work through the month of August, so that we can make the transition as smooth as possible.  By working through August, you will also complete 15 years of employment at UNO.  I encourage you to seek advice from HR as soon as you return from your trip to understand what benefits you are entitled to.  



  I am very sorry to bring you this news; although it does not make the news any easier to swallow, I want to assure you that you are not alone.  During this period, 19 Liberal Arts employees?both faculty and staff?are losing their jobs.  I am afraid that there will be more to come.



  Please make an appointment to see me at your very earliest convenience when you get back.



  Susan







-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Thu Aug  2 10:52:27 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 16:52:27 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] a request
In-Reply-To: <6E8BD88DE7A741258036825FCFE214B5@BobHP>
References: <CABahUhXBi0WxQnDd7hqs+9o+Q0hr3f4fR=ib_H89u+PH9=Q5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9UsyR7tNdupJkENrzUR5=wRSjXTFgrw2nbhHZfiObkiS21-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<6E8BD88DE7A741258036825FCFE214B5@BobHP>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsySt4gv4+TSX+RCZ8-awWrdW1R0fO9jKKvmEpfxnnMSOfQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you, Bob. I have always known that you are the best.


On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:50 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:

>   The establishment strikes again.  I doubt there?s any other teacher at
> New Orleans at the level
> in his discipline that Bill is at his.  When I spout off at the way
> academics treat the otherstream,
> I always remember him as a major exception.  But he is open to and
> intelligent about a lot more
> than the otherstream.  I hope his university can find a way to keep him,
> or that some other
> university grabs him.
>
> --Bob
>
>  *From:* Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 02, 2012 10:25 AM
> *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] a request
>
> I do not think I am infringing any privacy by sending the present over.
> Thank you to those who will take the time to go through it. My best, Anny
>
> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:00 PM, Bill Lavender <bill.lavender at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Hi. This is going to just a few people, mostly alums, who will have
>> nothing to lose by posting this info. Some of the students have started a
>> petition and I would really appreciate if you could post a link on
>> facebook.
>>
>> Some of you don't even know what I'm taking about; see below for that:
>>
>> Here is the petition:
>>
>> http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/president-of-the-university-of-new-orleans-louisiana-maintain-bill-lavender-as-the-director-of-uno-s-low-residency-mfa
>>
>> Also, here is the FB page devoted to the issue:
>> http://www.facebook.com/SaveTheUnoLowResProgram
>>
>> And for those of you who haven't heard, the story:
>>
>> Below is an email I received from my Dean while I was in Edinburgh this
>> summer. I then  heard from my GA that they have changed the locks on my
>> office. I'll leave it to you to judge the fairness of this action after
>> my 15 years at UNO during which I created and developed one of the most
>> unique and successful low res programs in the country.
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Susan E Krantz <SKrantz at uno.edu>
>> Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:39 PM
>> Subject: FW: low res committees in the Fall
>> To: Bill Lavender <WLavende at uno.edu>
>> Cc: Peter A Schock <PSchock at uno.edu>, Fredrick P Barton <FBarton at uno.edu>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Bill?The news I have for you is not good, and I apologize for
>> relaying it through e-mail, rather than face-to-face.  But I completely
>> understand your wish to know the disposition of your employment as soon
>> as possible. Your position will be eliminated.  We have put the Press on
>> hiatus and are relocating the CWW Low-Res to an existing faculty member.
>>
>>
>>
>> I would very much like you to work through the month of August, so that
>> we can make the transition as smooth as possible.  By working through
>> August, you will also complete 15 years of employment at UNO.  I encourage
>> you to seek advice from HR as soon as you return from your trip tounderstand what benefits you are entitled
>> to.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am very sorry to bring you this news; although it does not make the
>> news any easier to swallow, I want to assure you that you are not
>> alone.  During this period, 19 Liberal Arts employees?both faculty and
>> staff?are losing their jobs.  I am afraid that there will be more tocome.
>>
>>
>>
>> Please make an appointment to see me at your very earliest convenience
>> when you get back.
>>
>>
>> Susan
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
>  ------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
-------------- next part --------------
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From fox.skip at gmail.com  Thu Aug  2 11:29:14 2012
From: fox.skip at gmail.com (Skip Fox)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 10:29:14 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] a request
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsySt4gv4+TSX+RCZ8-awWrdW1R0fO9jKKvmEpfxnnMSOfQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABahUhXBi0WxQnDd7hqs+9o+Q0hr3f4fR=ib_H89u+PH9=Q5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9UsyR7tNdupJkENrzUR5=wRSjXTFgrw2nbhHZfiObkiS21-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<6E8BD88DE7A741258036825FCFE214B5@BobHP>
	<CA+9UsySt4gv4+TSX+RCZ8-awWrdW1R0fO9jKKvmEpfxnnMSOfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADy9827aSk3NNzGqACRB5AmWP1aetNeRkjbgRCGEMJi82Qrb3Q@mail.gmail.com>

Perhaps there should be a petition for writers as well attesting to the
national and international status of UNO Press and the quality of Bill's
work as editor. UNO Press authors, especially those from South America,
might especially attet to the international scope of the press.

On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 9:52 AM, Anny Ballardini
<anny.ballardini at gmail.com>wrote:

> Thank you, Bob. I have always known that you are the best.
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:50 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:
>
>>   The establishment strikes again.  I doubt there?s any other teacher at
>> New Orleans at the level
>> in his discipline that Bill is at his.  When I spout off at the way
>> academics treat the otherstream,
>> I always remember him as a major exception.  But he is open to and
>> intelligent about a lot more
>> than the otherstream.  I hope his university can find a way to keep him,
>> or that some other
>> university grabs him.
>>
>> --Bob
>>
>>  *From:* Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 02, 2012 10:25 AM
>> *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] a request
>>
>>  I do not think I am infringing any privacy by sending the present over.
>> Thank you to those who will take the time to go through it. My best, Anny
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:00 PM, Bill Lavender <bill.lavender at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Hi. This is going to just a few people, mostly alums, who will have
>>> nothing to lose by posting this info. Some of the students have started a
>>> petition and I would really appreciate if you could post a link on
>>> facebook.
>>>
>>> Some of you don't even know what I'm taking about; see below for that:
>>>
>>> Here is the petition:
>>>
>>> http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/president-of-the-university-of-new-orleans-louisiana-maintain-bill-lavender-as-the-director-of-uno-s-low-residency-mfa
>>>
>>> Also, here is the FB page devoted to the issue:
>>> http://www.facebook.com/SaveTheUnoLowResProgram
>>>
>>> And for those of you who haven't heard, the story:
>>>
>>> Below is an email I received from my Dean while I was in Edinburgh this
>>> summer. I then  heard from my GA that they have changed the locks on my
>>> office. I'll leave it to you to judge the fairness of this action after
>>> my 15 years at UNO during which I created and developed one of the most
>>> unique and successful low res programs in the country.
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: Susan E Krantz <SKrantz at uno.edu>
>>> Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:39 PM
>>> Subject: FW: low res committees in the Fall
>>> To: Bill Lavender <WLavende at uno.edu>
>>> Cc: Peter A Schock <PSchock at uno.edu>, Fredrick P Barton <FBarton at uno.edu
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Bill?The news I have for you is not good, and I apologize for
>>> relaying it through e-mail, rather than face-to-face.  But I completely
>>> understand your wish to know the disposition of your employment as soon
>>> as possible. Your position will be eliminated.  We have put the Press on
>>> hiatus and are relocating the CWW Low-Res to an existing faculty member.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I would very much like you to work through the month of August, so that
>>> we can make the transition as smooth as possible.  By working through
>>> August, you will also complete 15 years of employment at UNO.  I encourage
>>> you to seek advice from HR as soon as you return from your trip tounderstand what benefits you are entitled
>>> to.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am very sorry to bring you this news; although it does not make the
>>> news any easier to swallow, I want to assure you that you are not
>>> alone.  During this period, 19 Liberal Arts employees?both faculty and
>>> staff?are losing their jobs.  I am afraid that there will be more tocome.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Please make an appointment to see me at your very earliest convenience
>>> when you get back.
>>>
>>>
>>> Susan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Anny Ballardini
>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
>> star!
>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>
>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>> Giovenale
>>
>>  ------------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Thu Aug  2 12:30:56 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 18:30:56 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] a request
In-Reply-To: <CADy9827aSk3NNzGqACRB5AmWP1aetNeRkjbgRCGEMJi82Qrb3Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABahUhXBi0WxQnDd7hqs+9o+Q0hr3f4fR=ib_H89u+PH9=Q5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9UsyR7tNdupJkENrzUR5=wRSjXTFgrw2nbhHZfiObkiS21-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<6E8BD88DE7A741258036825FCFE214B5@BobHP>
	<CA+9UsySt4gv4+TSX+RCZ8-awWrdW1R0fO9jKKvmEpfxnnMSOfQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADy9827aSk3NNzGqACRB5AmWP1aetNeRkjbgRCGEMJi82Qrb3Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyTeT4Do7SvJtC8ZgXfxC_-aQosa8V22k1kQN0j_PPMMew@mail.gmail.com>

This is an idea, Skip.

On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Skip Fox <fox.skip at gmail.com> wrote:

> Perhaps there should be a petition for writers as well attesting to the
> national and international status of UNO Press and the quality of Bill's
> work as editor. UNO Press authors, especially those from South America,
> might especially attet to the international scope of the press.
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 9:52 AM, Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> Thank you, Bob. I have always known that you are the best.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:50 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:
>>
>>>   The establishment strikes again.  I doubt there?s any other teacher
>>> at New Orleans at the level
>>> in his discipline that Bill is at his.  When I spout off at the way
>>> academics treat the otherstream,
>>> I always remember him as a major exception.  But he is open to and
>>> intelligent about a lot more
>>> than the otherstream.  I hope his university can find a way to keep him,
>>> or that some other
>>> university grabs him.
>>>
>>> --Bob
>>>
>>>  *From:* Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
>>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 02, 2012 10:25 AM
>>> *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] a request
>>>
>>>  I do not think I am infringing any privacy by sending the present
>>> over. Thank you to those who will take the time to go through it. My best,
>>> Anny
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:00 PM, Bill Lavender <bill.lavender at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi. This is going to just a few people, mostly alums, who will have
>>>> nothing to lose by posting this info. Some of the students have started a
>>>> petition and I would really appreciate if you could post a link on
>>>> facebook.
>>>>
>>>> Some of you don't even know what I'm taking about; see below for that:
>>>>
>>>> Here is the petition:
>>>>
>>>> http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/president-of-the-university-of-new-orleans-louisiana-maintain-bill-lavender-as-the-director-of-uno-s-low-residency-mfa
>>>>
>>>> Also, here is the FB page devoted to the issue:
>>>> http://www.facebook.com/SaveTheUnoLowResProgram
>>>>
>>>> And for those of you who haven't heard, the story:
>>>>
>>>> Below is an email I received from my Dean while I was in Edinburgh this
>>>> summer. I then  heard from my GA that they have changed the locks on my
>>>> office. I'll leave it to you to judge the fairness of this action
>>>> after my 15 years at UNO during which I created and developed one of the
>>>> most unique and successful low res programs in the country.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>> From: Susan E Krantz <SKrantz at uno.edu>
>>>> Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:39 PM
>>>> Subject: FW: low res committees in the Fall
>>>> To: Bill Lavender <WLavende at uno.edu>
>>>> Cc: Peter A Schock <PSchock at uno.edu>, Fredrick P Barton <
>>>> FBarton at uno.edu>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Dear Bill?The news I have for you is not good, and I apologize for
>>>> relaying it through e-mail, rather than face-to-face.  But I
>>>> completely understand your wish to know the disposition of your
>>>> employment as soon as possible. Your position will be eliminated.  We have
>>>> put the Press on hiatus and are relocating the CWW Low-Res to an
>>>> existing faculty member.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would very much like you to work through the month of August, so
>>>> that we can make the transition as smooth as possible.  By working through
>>>> August, you will also complete 15 years of employment at UNO.  I encourage
>>>> you to seek advice from HR as soon as you return from your trip tounderstand what benefits you are entitled
>>>> to.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am very sorry to bring you this news; although it does not make the
>>>> news any easier to swallow, I want to assure you that you are not
>>>> alone.  During this period, 19 Liberal Arts employees?both faculty and
>>>> staff?are losing their jobs.  I am afraid that there will be more tocome.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Please make an appointment to see me at your very earliest convenience
>>>> when you get back.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Susan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Anny Ballardini
>>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
>>> star!
>>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>>
>>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>>> Giovenale
>>>
>>>  ------------------------------
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Anny Ballardini
>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
>> star!
>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>
>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>> Giovenale
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Aug  2 12:34:52 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 12:34:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] a request
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsySt4gv4+TSX+RCZ8-awWrdW1R0fO9jKKvmEpfxnnMSOfQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABahUhXBi0WxQnDd7hqs+9o+Q0hr3f4fR=ib_H89u+PH9=Q5+Q@mail.gmail.com><CA+9UsyR7tNdupJkENrzUR5=wRSjXTFgrw2nbhHZfiObkiS2
	1-w@mail.gmail.com><6E8BD88DE7A741258036825FCFE214B5@BobHP>
	<CA+9UsySt4gv4+TSX+RCZ8-awWrdW1R0fO9jKKvmEpfxnnMSOfQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <E86608CE3BD543FE8B7D2FE808327C8B@BobHP>



From: Anny Ballardini 
Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2012 10:52 AM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] a request

Thank you, Bob. I have always known that you are the best. 
(Note that I got my boilerplate about the establishment in.)
Incorrigibly, Bob
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From fox.skip at gmail.com  Thu Aug  2 12:37:22 2012
From: fox.skip at gmail.com (Skip Fox)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 11:37:22 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] a request
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsyTeT4Do7SvJtC8ZgXfxC_-aQosa8V22k1kQN0j_PPMMew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABahUhXBi0WxQnDd7hqs+9o+Q0hr3f4fR=ib_H89u+PH9=Q5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9UsyR7tNdupJkENrzUR5=wRSjXTFgrw2nbhHZfiObkiS21-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<6E8BD88DE7A741258036825FCFE214B5@BobHP>
	<CA+9UsySt4gv4+TSX+RCZ8-awWrdW1R0fO9jKKvmEpfxnnMSOfQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADy9827aSk3NNzGqACRB5AmWP1aetNeRkjbgRCGEMJi82Qrb3Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9UsyTeT4Do7SvJtC8ZgXfxC_-aQosa8V22k1kQN0j_PPMMew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADy9827eFf25LhSEBsL5GOE817Kk7tjqyzynVNNMhSU1WWcG-Q@mail.gmail.com>

I've shared a number of ideas for such a petition to Marthe. Perhaps we
three can craft it?

On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Anny Ballardini
<anny.ballardini at gmail.com>wrote:

> This is an idea, Skip.
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Skip Fox <fox.skip at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Perhaps there should be a petition for writers as well attesting to the
>> national and international status of UNO Press and the quality of Bill's
>> work as editor. UNO Press authors, especially those from South America,
>> might especially attet to the international scope of the press.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 9:52 AM, Anny Ballardini <
>> anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you, Bob. I have always known that you are the best.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:50 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:
>>>
>>>>   The establishment strikes again.  I doubt there?s any other teacher
>>>> at New Orleans at the level
>>>> in his discipline that Bill is at his.  When I spout off at the way
>>>> academics treat the otherstream,
>>>> I always remember him as a major exception.  But he is open to and
>>>> intelligent about a lot more
>>>> than the otherstream.  I hope his university can find a way to keep
>>>> him, or that some other
>>>> university grabs him.
>>>>
>>>> --Bob
>>>>
>>>>  *From:* Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 02, 2012 10:25 AM
>>>> *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] a request
>>>>
>>>>  I do not think I am infringing any privacy by sending the present
>>>> over. Thank you to those who will take the time to go through it. My best,
>>>> Anny
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:00 PM, Bill Lavender <bill.lavender at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi. This is going to just a few people, mostly alums, who will have
>>>>> nothing to lose by posting this info. Some of the students have started a
>>>>> petition and I would really appreciate if you could post a link on
>>>>> facebook.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some of you don't even know what I'm taking about; see below for that:
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is the petition:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/president-of-the-university-of-new-orleans-louisiana-maintain-bill-lavender-as-the-director-of-uno-s-low-residency-mfa
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, here is the FB page devoted to the issue:
>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/SaveTheUnoLowResProgram
>>>>>
>>>>> And for those of you who haven't heard, the story:
>>>>>
>>>>> Below is an email I received from my Dean while I was in Edinburgh
>>>>> this summer. I then  heard from my GA that they have changed the locks on
>>>>> my office. I'll leave it to you to judge the fairness of this action
>>>>> after my 15 years at UNO during which I created and developed one of the
>>>>> most unique and successful low res programs in the country.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>> From: Susan E Krantz <SKrantz at uno.edu>
>>>>> Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:39 PM
>>>>> Subject: FW: low res committees in the Fall
>>>>> To: Bill Lavender <WLavende at uno.edu>
>>>>> Cc: Peter A Schock <PSchock at uno.edu>, Fredrick P Barton <
>>>>> FBarton at uno.edu>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Bill?The news I have for you is not good, and I apologize for
>>>>> relaying it through e-mail, rather than face-to-face.  But I
>>>>> completely understand your wish to know the disposition of your
>>>>> employment as soon as possible. Your position will be eliminated.  We have
>>>>> put the Press on hiatus and are relocating the CWW Low-Res to an
>>>>> existing faculty member.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I would very much like you to work through the month of August, so
>>>>> that we can make the transition as smooth as possible.  By working through
>>>>> August, you will also complete 15 years of employment at UNO.  I encourage
>>>>> you to seek advice from HR as soon as you return from your trip tounderstand what benefits you are entitled
>>>>> to.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I am very sorry to bring you this news; although it does not make the
>>>>> news any easier to swallow, I want to assure you that you are not
>>>>> alone.  During this period, 19 Liberal Arts employees?both faculty and
>>>>> staff?are losing their jobs.  I am afraid that there will be more tocome.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Please make an appointment to see me at your very earliest
>>>>> convenience when you get back.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Susan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Anny Ballardini
>>>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>>>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>>>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>>>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>>>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
>>>> star!
>>>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>>>
>>>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>>>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>>>> Giovenale
>>>>
>>>>  ------------------------------
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Anny Ballardini
>>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
>>> star!
>>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>>
>>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>>> Giovenale
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Thu Aug  2 12:51:17 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 18:51:17 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] a request
In-Reply-To: <CADy9827eFf25LhSEBsL5GOE817Kk7tjqyzynVNNMhSU1WWcG-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABahUhXBi0WxQnDd7hqs+9o+Q0hr3f4fR=ib_H89u+PH9=Q5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9UsyR7tNdupJkENrzUR5=wRSjXTFgrw2nbhHZfiObkiS21-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<6E8BD88DE7A741258036825FCFE214B5@BobHP>
	<CA+9UsySt4gv4+TSX+RCZ8-awWrdW1R0fO9jKKvmEpfxnnMSOfQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADy9827aSk3NNzGqACRB5AmWP1aetNeRkjbgRCGEMJi82Qrb3Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9UsyTeT4Do7SvJtC8ZgXfxC_-aQosa8V22k1kQN0j_PPMMew@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADy9827eFf25LhSEBsL5GOE817Kk7tjqyzynVNNMhSU1WWcG-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyTsu+DJPNJNqup+HafLGxcHeB4MT9cP-ZbK-uQU6E=o=A@mail.gmail.com>

Yes, undoubtedly, let's get bc.

On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 6:37 PM, Skip Fox <fox.skip at gmail.com> wrote:

> I've shared a number of ideas for such a petition to Marthe. Perhaps we
> three can craft it?
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Anny Ballardini <
> anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> This is an idea, Skip.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Skip Fox <fox.skip at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Perhaps there should be a petition for writers as well attesting to the
>>> national and international status of UNO Press and the quality of Bill's
>>> work as editor. UNO Press authors, especially those from South America,
>>> might especially attet to the international scope of the press.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 9:52 AM, Anny Ballardini <
>>> anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thank you, Bob. I have always known that you are the best.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:50 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>   The establishment strikes again.  I doubt there?s any other teacher
>>>>> at New Orleans at the level
>>>>> in his discipline that Bill is at his.  When I spout off at the way
>>>>> academics treat the otherstream,
>>>>> I always remember him as a major exception.  But he is open to and
>>>>> intelligent about a lot more
>>>>> than the otherstream.  I hope his university can find a way to keep
>>>>> him, or that some other
>>>>> university grabs him.
>>>>>
>>>>> --Bob
>>>>>
>>>>>  *From:* Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 02, 2012 10:25 AM
>>>>> *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] a request
>>>>>
>>>>>  I do not think I am infringing any privacy by sending the present
>>>>> over. Thank you to those who will take the time to go through it. My best,
>>>>> Anny
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:00 PM, Bill Lavender <bill.lavender at gmail.com
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi. This is going to just a few people, mostly alums, who will have
>>>>>> nothing to lose by posting this info. Some of the students have started a
>>>>>> petition and I would really appreciate if you could post a link on
>>>>>> facebook.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some of you don't even know what I'm taking about; see below for that:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here is the petition:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/president-of-the-university-of-new-orleans-louisiana-maintain-bill-lavender-as-the-director-of-uno-s-low-residency-mfa
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, here is the FB page devoted to the issue:
>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/SaveTheUnoLowResProgram
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And for those of you who haven't heard, the story:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Below is an email I received from my Dean while I was in Edinburgh
>>>>>> this summer. I then  heard from my GA that they have changed the locks on
>>>>>> my office. I'll leave it to you to judge the fairness of this action
>>>>>> after my 15 years at UNO during which I created and developed one of the
>>>>>> most unique and successful low res programs in the country.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>>> From: Susan E Krantz <SKrantz at uno.edu>
>>>>>> Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:39 PM
>>>>>> Subject: FW: low res committees in the Fall
>>>>>> To: Bill Lavender <WLavende at uno.edu>
>>>>>> Cc: Peter A Schock <PSchock at uno.edu>, Fredrick P Barton <
>>>>>> FBarton at uno.edu>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Bill?The news I have for you is not good, and I apologize for
>>>>>> relaying it through e-mail, rather than face-to-face.  But I
>>>>>> completely understand your wish to know the disposition of your
>>>>>> employment as soon as possible. Your position will be eliminated.  We have
>>>>>> put the Press on hiatus and are relocating the CWW Low-Res to an
>>>>>> existing faculty member.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would very much like you to work through the month of August, so
>>>>>> that we can make the transition as smooth as possible.  By working through
>>>>>> August, you will also complete 15 years of employment at UNO.  I encourage
>>>>>> you to seek advice from HR as soon as you return from your trip tounderstand what benefits you are entitled
>>>>>> to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am very sorry to bring you this news; although it does not make
>>>>>> the news any easier to swallow, I want to assure you that you are
>>>>>> not alone.  During this period, 19 Liberal Arts employees?both faculty and
>>>>>> staff?are losing their jobs.  I am afraid that there will be more tocome.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please make an appointment to see me at your very earliest
>>>>>> convenience when you get back.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Susan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Anny Ballardini
>>>>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>>>>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>>>>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>>>>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>>>>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a
>>>>> dancing star!
>>>>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>>>>
>>>>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>>>>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>>>>> Giovenale
>>>>>
>>>>>  ------------------------------
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Anny Ballardini
>>>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>>>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>>>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>>>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>>>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
>>>> star!
>>>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>>>
>>>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>>>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>>>> Giovenale
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Anny Ballardini
>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
>> star!
>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>
>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>> Giovenale
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Aug  2 13:15:02 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 13:15:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] a request
In-Reply-To: <CADy9827eFf25LhSEBsL5GOE817Kk7tjqyzynVNNMhSU1WWcG-Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABahUhXBi0WxQnDd7hqs+9o+Q0hr3f4fR=ib_H89u+PH9=Q5+Q@mail.gmail.com><CA+9UsyR7tNdupJkENrzUR5=wRSjXTFgrw2nbhHZfiObkiS2
	1-w@mail.gmail.com><6E8BD88DE7A741258036825FCFE214B5@BobHP><CA+9UsySt4gv4+TSX+RCZ8-awWrdW1R0fO9jKKvmEpfxnnMSOfQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADy9827aSk3NNzGqACRB5AmWP1aetNeRkjbgRCGEMJi82Qrb3Q@mail.gmail.com><CA+9UsyTeT4Do7SvJtC8ZgXfxC_-aQosa8V22k1kQN0j_PPMMew@mail.g
	mail.com>
	<CADy9827eFf25LhSEBsL5GOE817Kk7tjqyzynVNNMhSU1WWcG-Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <5B4192E2227D41078298BA13B1172C4B@BobHP>

Feel free to use whatever you can from my post (leaving
out the parts referring to the establishment) and let me see 
what you come up with so I can comment on it.  Skip?s
bringing up the press is very important, I believe?for
(I?m afraid) personal reasons, the fact that it is possibly
the only university-supported publication I ever got
a poem into!  Which now reminds me, that it led
to the visual poetry event in Atlanta where I met
both Bill and Skip in person!  (And disagreed with
part of Bill?s presentation, and said so!)

--Bob

From: Skip Fox 
Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2012 12:37 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] a request

I've shared a number of ideas for such a petition to Marthe. Perhaps we three can craft it?


On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote:

  This is an idea, Skip.  



  On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Skip Fox <fox.skip at gmail.com> wrote:

    Perhaps there should be a petition for writers as well attesting to the national and international status of UNO Press and the quality of Bill's work as editor. UNO Press authors, especially those from South America, might especially attet to the international scope of the press. 



    On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 9:52 AM, Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote:

      Thank you, Bob. I have always known that you are the best. 



      On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:50 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

        The establishment strikes again.  I doubt there?s any other teacher at New Orleans at the level 
        in his discipline that Bill is at his.  When I spout off at the way academics treat the otherstream, 
        I always remember him as a major exception.  But he is open to and intelligent about a lot more 
        than the otherstream.  I hope his university can find a way to keep him, or that some other 
        university grabs him.

        --Bob

        From: Anny Ballardini 
        Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2012 10:25 AM
        To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views 
        Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] a request

        I do not think I am infringing any privacy by sending the present over. Thank you to those who will take the time to go through it. My best, Anny


        On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:00 PM, Bill Lavender <bill.lavender at gmail.com> wrote:

          Hi. This is going to just a few people, mostly alums, who will have nothing to lose by posting this info. Some of the students have started a petition and I would really appreciate if you could post a link on facebook. 

          Some of you don't even know what I'm taking about; see below for that:

          Here is the petition:
          http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/president-of-the-university-of-new-orleans-louisiana-maintain-bill-lavender-as-the-director-of-uno-s-low-residency-mfa

          Also, here is the FB page devoted to the issue:
          http://www.facebook.com/SaveTheUnoLowResProgram

          And for those of you who haven't heard, the story:

          Below is an email I received from my Dean while I was in Edinburgh this summer. I then  heard from my GA that they have changed the locks on my office. I'll leave it to you to judge the fairness of this action after my 15 years at UNO during which I created and developed one of the most unique and successful low res programs in the country.


          ---------- Forwarded message ----------
          From: Susan E Krantz <SKrantz at uno.edu>
          Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:39 PM
          Subject: FW: low res committees in the Fall
          To: Bill Lavender <WLavende at uno.edu>
          Cc: Peter A Schock <PSchock at uno.edu>, Fredrick P Barton <FBarton at uno.edu>





          Dear Bill?The news I have for you is not good, and I apologize for relaying it through e-mail, rather than face-to-face.  But I completely understand your wish to know the disposition of your employment as soon as possible. Your position will be eliminated.  We have put the Press on hiatus and are relocating the CWW Low-Res to an existing faculty member.



          I would very much like you to work through the month of August, so that we can make the transition as smooth as possible.  By working through August, you will also complete 15 years of employment at UNO.  I encourage you to seek advice from HR as soon as you return from your trip to understand what benefits you are entitled to.  



          I am very sorry to bring you this news; although it does not make the news any easier to swallow, I want to assure you that you are not alone.  During this period, 19 Liberal Arts employees?both faculty and staff?are losing their jobs.  I am afraid that there will be more to come.



          Please make an appointment to see me at your very earliest convenience when you get back.



          Susan







        -- 
        Anny Ballardini
        http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
        http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
        http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
        http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
        I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
        Friedrich Nietzsche

        ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
        vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
        Giovenale



------------------------------------------------------------------------
        _______________________________________________
        New-Poetry mailing list
        New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
        http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


        _______________________________________________
        New-Poetry mailing list
        New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
        http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry






      -- 
      Anny Ballardini
      http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
      http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
      http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
      http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
      I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
      Friedrich Nietzsche

      ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
      vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
      Giovenale



      _______________________________________________
      New-Poetry mailing list
      New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
      http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry






  -- 
  Anny Ballardini
  http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
  http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
  http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
  http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
  I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
  Friedrich Nietzsche

  ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
  vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
  Giovenale



  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From fox.skip at gmail.com  Thu Aug  2 13:30:00 2012
From: fox.skip at gmail.com (Skip Fox)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 12:30:00 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] a request
In-Reply-To: <5B4192E2227D41078298BA13B1172C4B@BobHP>
References: <CABahUhXBi0WxQnDd7hqs+9o+Q0hr3f4fR=ib_H89u+PH9=Q5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<6E8BD88DE7A741258036825FCFE214B5@BobHP>
	<CA+9UsySt4gv4+TSX+RCZ8-awWrdW1R0fO9jKKvmEpfxnnMSOfQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADy9827aSk3NNzGqACRB5AmWP1aetNeRkjbgRCGEMJi82Qrb3Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADy9827eFf25LhSEBsL5GOE817Kk7tjqyzynVNNMhSU1WWcG-Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<5B4192E2227D41078298BA13B1172C4B@BobHP>
Message-ID: <CADy982523XbRNG4026g--tCj15jbuqJqXV6utz87gbwcnDLcyQ@mail.gmail.com>

Marthe, Anny,

I'm trying to get information on Bill's involvement with the press. How
long in charge, what titles did he preside over in publication process, any
other involvement.

I wrote the Managing Director but she may be locked out.

I also asked for e-mail addresses of all UNO authors so we could
individually write them to encourage him to sign the petition.

By the way, is there a type of submittable petition that allows comments as
well? I'd be will to help support such with $.

skip

On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 12:15 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:

>   Feel free to use whatever you can from my post (leaving
> out the parts referring to the establishment) and let me see
> what you come up with so I can comment on it.  Skip?s
> bringing up the press is very important, I believe?for
> (I?m afraid) personal reasons, the fact that it is possibly
> the only university-supported publication I ever got
> a poem into!  Which now reminds me, that it led
> to the visual poetry event in Atlanta where I met
> both Bill and Skip in person!  (And disagreed with
> part of Bill?s presentation, and said so!)
>
> --Bob
>
>  *From:* Skip Fox <fox.skip at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 02, 2012 12:37 PM
> *To:* NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>  *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] a request
>
>  I've shared a number of ideas for such a petition to Marthe. Perhaps we
> three can craft it?
>
> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Anny Ballardini <
> anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> This is an idea, Skip.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Skip Fox <fox.skip at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Perhaps there should be a petition for writers as well attesting to the
>>> national and international status of UNO Press and the quality of Bill's
>>> work as editor. UNO Press authors, especially those from South America,
>>> might especially attet to the international scope of the press.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 9:52 AM, Anny Ballardini <
>>> anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Thank you, Bob. I have always known that you are the best.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:50 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>   The establishment strikes again.  I doubt there?s any other teacher
>>>>> at New Orleans at the level
>>>>> in his discipline that Bill is at his.  When I spout off at the way
>>>>> academics treat the otherstream,
>>>>> I always remember him as a major exception.  But he is open to and
>>>>> intelligent about a lot more
>>>>> than the otherstream.  I hope his university can find a way to keep
>>>>> him, or that some other
>>>>> university grabs him.
>>>>>
>>>>> --Bob
>>>>>
>>>>>  *From:* Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 02, 2012 10:25 AM
>>>>> *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] a request
>>>>>
>>>>>  I do not think I am infringing any privacy by sending the present
>>>>> over. Thank you to those who will take the time to go through it. My best,
>>>>> Anny
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:00 PM, Bill Lavender <bill.lavender at gmail.com
>>>>> > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hi. This is going to just a few people, mostly alums, who will have
>>>>>> nothing to lose by posting this info. Some of the students have started a
>>>>>> petition and I would really appreciate if you could post a link on
>>>>>> facebook.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some of you don't even know what I'm taking about; see below for that:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Here is the petition:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/president-of-the-university-of-new-orleans-louisiana-maintain-bill-lavender-as-the-director-of-uno-s-low-residency-mfa
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Also, here is the FB page devoted to the issue:
>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/SaveTheUnoLowResProgram
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And for those of you who haven't heard, the story:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Below is an email I received from my Dean while I was in Edinburgh
>>>>>> this summer. I then  heard from my GA that they have changed the locks on
>>>>>> my office. I'll leave it to you to judge the fairness of this action
>>>>>> after my 15 years at UNO during which I created and developed one of the
>>>>>> most unique and successful low res programs in the country.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>>> From: Susan E Krantz <SKrantz at uno.edu>
>>>>>> Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:39 PM
>>>>>> Subject: FW: low res committees in the Fall
>>>>>> To: Bill Lavender <WLavende at uno.edu>
>>>>>> Cc: Peter A Schock <PSchock at uno.edu>, Fredrick P Barton <
>>>>>> FBarton at uno.edu>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dear Bill?The news I have for you is not good, and I apologize for
>>>>>> relaying it through e-mail, rather than face-to-face.  But I
>>>>>> completely understand your wish to know the disposition of your
>>>>>> employment as soon as possible. Your position will be eliminated.  We have
>>>>>> put the Press on hiatus and are relocating the CWW Low-Res to an
>>>>>> existing faculty member.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would very much like you to work through the month of August, so
>>>>>> that we can make the transition as smooth as possible.  By working through
>>>>>> August, you will also complete 15 years of employment at UNO.  I encourage
>>>>>> you to seek advice from HR as soon as you return from your trip tounderstand what benefits you are entitled
>>>>>> to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I am very sorry to bring you this news; although it does not make
>>>>>> the news any easier to swallow, I want to assure you that you are
>>>>>> not alone.  During this period, 19 Liberal Arts employees?both faculty and
>>>>>> staff?are losing their jobs.  I am afraid that there will be more tocome.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Please make an appointment to see me at your very earliest
>>>>>> convenience when you get back.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Susan
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Anny Ballardini
>>>>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>>>>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>>>>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>>>>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>>>>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a
>>>>> dancing star!
>>>>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>>>>
>>>>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>>>>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>>>>> Giovenale
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Anny Ballardini
>>>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>>>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>>>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>>>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>>>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
>>>> star!
>>>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>>>
>>>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>>>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>>>> Giovenale
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Anny Ballardini
>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
>> star!
>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>
>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>> Giovenale
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>  ------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Aug  2 13:47:02 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 13:47:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] a request
In-Reply-To: <CADy982523XbRNG4026g--tCj15jbuqJqXV6utz87gbwcnDLcyQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABahUhXBi0WxQnDd7hqs+9o+Q0hr3f4fR=ib_H89u+PH9=Q5+Q@mail.gmail.com><6E8BD88DE7A741258036825FCFE214B5@BobHP><CA+9UsyS
	t4gv4+TSX+RCZ8-awWrdW1R0fO9jKKvmEpfxnnMSOfQ@mail.gmail.com><CADy9827aSk3NNzGqACRB5AmWP1aetNeRkjbgRCGEMJi82Qrb3Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADy9827eFf25LhSEBsL5GOE817Kk7tjqyzynVNNMhSU1WWcG-Q@mail.gmail.com><5B4192E2227D41078298BA13B1172C4B@BobHP>
	<CADy982523XbRNG4026g--tCj15jbuqJqXV6utz87gbwcnDLcyQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8F17171A220A4153A2DF9A275586E502@BobHP>

And the magazine?which he either edited or was guest editor of one or two issues devoted to ?Another South,? I believe.

From: Skip Fox 
Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2012 1:30 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] a request

Marthe, Anny,

I'm trying to get information on Bill's involvement with the press. How long in charge, what titles did he preside over in publication process, any other involvement.

I wrote the Managing Director but she may be locked out.

I also asked for e-mail addresses of all UNO authors so we could individually write them to encourage him to sign the petition.

By the way, is there a type of submittable petition that allows comments as well? I'd be will to help support such with $.

skip


On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 12:15 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

  Feel free to use whatever you can from my post (leaving
  out the parts referring to the establishment) and let me see 
  what you come up with so I can comment on it.  Skip?s
  bringing up the press is very important, I believe?for
  (I?m afraid) personal reasons, the fact that it is possibly
  the only university-supported publication I ever got
  a poem into!  Which now reminds me, that it led
  to the visual poetry event in Atlanta where I met
  both Bill and Skip in person!  (And disagreed with
  part of Bill?s presentation, and said so!)

  --Bob

  From: Skip Fox 
  Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2012 12:37 PM
  To: NewPoetry List 
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] a request

  I've shared a number of ideas for such a petition to Marthe. Perhaps we three can craft it?


  On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote:

    This is an idea, Skip.  



    On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Skip Fox <fox.skip at gmail.com> wrote:

      Perhaps there should be a petition for writers as well attesting to the national and international status of UNO Press and the quality of Bill's work as editor. UNO Press authors, especially those from South America, might especially attet to the international scope of the press. 



      On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 9:52 AM, Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote:

        Thank you, Bob. I have always known that you are the best. 



        On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:50 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

          The establishment strikes again.  I doubt there?s any other teacher at New Orleans at the level 
          in his discipline that Bill is at his.  When I spout off at the way academics treat the otherstream, 
          I always remember him as a major exception.  But he is open to and intelligent about a lot more 
          than the otherstream.  I hope his university can find a way to keep him, or that some other 
          university grabs him.

          --Bob

          From: Anny Ballardini 
          Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2012 10:25 AM
          To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views 
          Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] a request

          I do not think I am infringing any privacy by sending the present over. Thank you to those who will take the time to go through it. My best, Anny


          On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:00 PM, Bill Lavender <bill.lavender at gmail.com> wrote:

            Hi. This is going to just a few people, mostly alums, who will have nothing to lose by posting this info. Some of the students have started a petition and I would really appreciate if you could post a link on facebook. 

            Some of you don't even know what I'm taking about; see below for that:

            Here is the petition:
            http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/president-of-the-university-of-new-orleans-louisiana-maintain-bill-lavender-as-the-director-of-uno-s-low-residency-mfa

            Also, here is the FB page devoted to the issue:
            http://www.facebook.com/SaveTheUnoLowResProgram

            And for those of you who haven't heard, the story:

            Below is an email I received from my Dean while I was in Edinburgh this summer. I then  heard from my GA that they have changed the locks on my office. I'll leave it to you to judge the fairness of this action after my 15 years at UNO during which I created and developed one of the most unique and successful low res programs in the country.


            ---------- Forwarded message ----------
            From: Susan E Krantz <SKrantz at uno.edu>
            Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:39 PM
            Subject: FW: low res committees in the Fall
            To: Bill Lavender <WLavende at uno.edu>
            Cc: Peter A Schock <PSchock at uno.edu>, Fredrick P Barton <FBarton at uno.edu>





            Dear Bill?The news I have for you is not good, and I apologize for relaying it through e-mail, rather than face-to-face.  But I completely understand your wish to know the disposition of your employment as soon as possible. Your position will be eliminated.  We have put the Press on hiatus and are relocating the CWW Low-Res to an existing faculty member.



            I would very much like you to work through the month of August, so that we can make the transition as smooth as possible.  By working through August, you will also complete 15 years of employment at UNO.  I encourage you to seek advice from HR as soon as you return from your trip to understand what benefits you are entitled to.  



            I am very sorry to bring you this news; although it does not make the news any easier to swallow, I want to assure you that you are not alone.  During this period, 19 Liberal Arts employees?both faculty and staff?are losing their jobs.  I am afraid that there will be more to come.



            Please make an appointment to see me at your very earliest convenience when you get back.



            Susan







          -- 
          Anny Ballardini
          http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
          http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
          http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
          http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
          I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
          Friedrich Nietzsche

          ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
          vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
          Giovenale



----------------------------------------------------------------------
          _______________________________________________
          New-Poetry mailing list
          New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
          http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


          _______________________________________________
          New-Poetry mailing list
          New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
          http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry






        -- 
        Anny Ballardini
        http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
        http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
        http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
        http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
        I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
        Friedrich Nietzsche

        ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
        vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
        Giovenale



        _______________________________________________
        New-Poetry mailing list
        New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
        http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




      _______________________________________________
      New-Poetry mailing list
      New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
      http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry






    -- 
    Anny Ballardini
    http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
    http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
    http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
    http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
    I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
    Friedrich Nietzsche

    ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
    vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
    Giovenale



    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From cervantes.james at gmail.com  Thu Aug  2 13:07:12 2012
From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 12:07:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] a request
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsyTeT4Do7SvJtC8ZgXfxC_-aQosa8V22k1kQN0j_PPMMew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABahUhXBi0WxQnDd7hqs+9o+Q0hr3f4fR=ib_H89u+PH9=Q5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9UsyR7tNdupJkENrzUR5=wRSjXTFgrw2nbhHZfiObkiS21-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<6E8BD88DE7A741258036825FCFE214B5@BobHP>
	<CA+9UsySt4gv4+TSX+RCZ8-awWrdW1R0fO9jKKvmEpfxnnMSOfQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADy9827aSk3NNzGqACRB5AmWP1aetNeRkjbgRCGEMJi82Qrb3Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9UsyTeT4Do7SvJtC8ZgXfxC_-aQosa8V22k1kQN0j_PPMMew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADkt4scXhCktycYK8NztX87-c7FVjU15sU17uzXJRyS3T9ENdw@mail.gmail.com>

I second that one as a good alternative for those of us just tangentially
involved, such as knowing someone like Anny.

- Jim

On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Anny Ballardini
<anny.ballardini at gmail.com>wrote:

> This is an idea, Skip.
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Skip Fox <fox.skip at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Perhaps there should be a petition for writers as well attesting to the
>> national and international status of UNO Press and the quality of Bill's
>> work as editor. UNO Press authors, especially those from South America,
>> might especially attet to the international scope of the press.
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 9:52 AM, Anny Ballardini <
>> anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Thank you, Bob. I have always known that you are the best.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:50 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:
>>>
>>>>   The establishment strikes again.  I doubt there?s any other teacher
>>>> at New Orleans at the level
>>>> in his discipline that Bill is at his.  When I spout off at the way
>>>> academics treat the otherstream,
>>>> I always remember him as a major exception.  But he is open to and
>>>> intelligent about a lot more
>>>> than the otherstream.  I hope his university can find a way to keep
>>>> him, or that some other
>>>> university grabs him.
>>>>
>>>> --Bob
>>>>
>>>>  *From:* Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 02, 2012 10:25 AM
>>>> *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] a request
>>>>
>>>>  I do not think I am infringing any privacy by sending the present
>>>> over. Thank you to those who will take the time to go through it. My best,
>>>> Anny
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:00 PM, Bill Lavender <bill.lavender at gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Hi. This is going to just a few people, mostly alums, who will have
>>>>> nothing to lose by posting this info. Some of the students have started a
>>>>> petition and I would really appreciate if you could post a link on
>>>>> facebook.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some of you don't even know what I'm taking about; see below for that:
>>>>>
>>>>> Here is the petition:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/president-of-the-university-of-new-orleans-louisiana-maintain-bill-lavender-as-the-director-of-uno-s-low-residency-mfa
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, here is the FB page devoted to the issue:
>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/SaveTheUnoLowResProgram
>>>>>
>>>>> And for those of you who haven't heard, the story:
>>>>>
>>>>> Below is an email I received from my Dean while I was in Edinburgh
>>>>> this summer. I then  heard from my GA that they have changed the locks on
>>>>> my office. I'll leave it to you to judge the fairness of this action
>>>>> after my 15 years at UNO during which I created and developed one of the
>>>>> most unique and successful low res programs in the country.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>> From: Susan E Krantz <SKrantz at uno.edu>
>>>>> Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:39 PM
>>>>> Subject: FW: low res committees in the Fall
>>>>> To: Bill Lavender <WLavende at uno.edu>
>>>>> Cc: Peter A Schock <PSchock at uno.edu>, Fredrick P Barton <
>>>>> FBarton at uno.edu>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Dear Bill?The news I have for you is not good, and I apologize for
>>>>> relaying it through e-mail, rather than face-to-face.  But I
>>>>> completely understand your wish to know the disposition of your
>>>>> employment as soon as possible. Your position will be eliminated.  We have
>>>>> put the Press on hiatus and are relocating the CWW Low-Res to an
>>>>> existing faculty member.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I would very much like you to work through the month of August, so
>>>>> that we can make the transition as smooth as possible.  By working through
>>>>> August, you will also complete 15 years of employment at UNO.  I encourage
>>>>> you to seek advice from HR as soon as you return from your trip tounderstand what benefits you are entitled
>>>>> to.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I am very sorry to bring you this news; although it does not make the
>>>>> news any easier to swallow, I want to assure you that you are not
>>>>> alone.  During this period, 19 Liberal Arts employees?both faculty and
>>>>> staff?are losing their jobs.  I am afraid that there will be more tocome.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Please make an appointment to see me at your very earliest
>>>>> convenience when you get back.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Susan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Anny Ballardini
>>>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>>>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>>>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>>>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>>>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
>>>> star!
>>>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>>>
>>>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>>>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>>>> Giovenale
>>>>
>>>>  ------------------------------
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Anny Ballardini
>>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
>>> star!
>>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>>
>>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>>> Giovenale
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 

Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/

The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org

https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home

http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning

http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf

http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Thu Aug  2 13:59:26 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 19:59:26 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] a request
In-Reply-To: <8F17171A220A4153A2DF9A275586E502@BobHP>
References: <CABahUhXBi0WxQnDd7hqs+9o+Q0hr3f4fR=ib_H89u+PH9=Q5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<6E8BD88DE7A741258036825FCFE214B5@BobHP>
	<CADy9827aSk3NNzGqACRB5AmWP1aetNeRkjbgRCGEMJi82Qrb3Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADy9827eFf25LhSEBsL5GOE817Kk7tjqyzynVNNMhSU1WWcG-Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<5B4192E2227D41078298BA13B1172C4B@BobHP>
	<CADy982523XbRNG4026g--tCj15jbuqJqXV6utz87gbwcnDLcyQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<8F17171A220A4153A2DF9A275586E502@BobHP>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyTDDxjxNAFYyuTTGWHQ7+fMrswFzMB2s0wwA6inKs1LGg@mail.gmail.com>

He is the editor, I have that anthology here.


On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 7:47 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:

>   And the magazine?which he either edited or was guest editor of one or
> two issues devoted to ?Another South,? I believe.
>
>  *From:* Skip Fox <fox.skip at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 02, 2012 1:30 PM
> *To:* NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] a request
>
>  Marthe, Anny,
>
> I'm trying to get information on Bill's involvement with the press. How
> long in charge, what titles did he preside over in publication process, any
> other involvement.
>
> I wrote the Managing Director but she may be locked out.
>
> I also asked for e-mail addresses of all UNO authors so we could
> individually write them to encourage him to sign the petition.
>
> By the way, is there a type of submittable petition that allows comments
> as well? I'd be will to help support such with $.
>
> skip
>
> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 12:15 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:
>
>>   Feel free to use whatever you can from my post (leaving
>> out the parts referring to the establishment) and let me see
>> what you come up with so I can comment on it.  Skip?s
>> bringing up the press is very important, I believe?for
>> (I?m afraid) personal reasons, the fact that it is possibly
>> the only university-supported publication I ever got
>> a poem into!  Which now reminds me, that it led
>> to the visual poetry event in Atlanta where I met
>> both Bill and Skip in person!  (And disagreed with
>> part of Bill?s presentation, and said so!)
>>
>> --Bob
>>
>>  *From:* Skip Fox <fox.skip at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 02, 2012 12:37 PM
>> *To:* NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>  *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] a request
>>
>>  I've shared a number of ideas for such a petition to Marthe. Perhaps we
>> three can craft it?
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 11:30 AM, Anny Ballardini <
>> anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> This is an idea, Skip.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Skip Fox <fox.skip at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Perhaps there should be a petition for writers as well attesting to the
>>>> national and international status of UNO Press and the quality of Bill's
>>>> work as editor. UNO Press authors, especially those from South America,
>>>> might especially attet to the international scope of the press.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 9:52 AM, Anny Ballardini <
>>>> anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Thank you, Bob. I have always known that you are the best.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:50 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>   The establishment strikes again.  I doubt there?s any other
>>>>>> teacher at New Orleans at the level
>>>>>> in his discipline that Bill is at his.  When I spout off at the way
>>>>>> academics treat the otherstream,
>>>>>> I always remember him as a major exception.  But he is open to and
>>>>>> intelligent about a lot more
>>>>>> than the otherstream.  I hope his university can find a way to keep
>>>>>> him, or that some other
>>>>>> university grabs him.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --Bob
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  *From:* Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
>>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 02, 2012 10:25 AM
>>>>>> *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] a request
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  I do not think I am infringing any privacy by sending the present
>>>>>> over. Thank you to those who will take the time to go through it. My best,
>>>>>> Anny
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:00 PM, Bill Lavender <
>>>>>> bill.lavender at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hi. This is going to just a few people, mostly alums, who will have
>>>>>>> nothing to lose by posting this info. Some of the students have started a
>>>>>>> petition and I would really appreciate if you could post a link on
>>>>>>> facebook.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some of you don't even know what I'm taking about; see below for
>>>>>>> that:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Here is the petition:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/president-of-the-university-of-new-orleans-louisiana-maintain-bill-lavender-as-the-director-of-uno-s-low-residency-mfa
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Also, here is the FB page devoted to the issue:
>>>>>>> http://www.facebook.com/SaveTheUnoLowResProgram
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And for those of you who haven't heard, the story:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Below is an email I received from my Dean while I was in Edinburgh
>>>>>>> this summer. I then  heard from my GA that they have changed the locks on
>>>>>>> my office. I'll leave it to you to judge the fairness of this
>>>>>>> action after my 15 years at UNO during which I created and developed one of
>>>>>>> the most unique and successful low res programs in the country.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>>>>> From: Susan E Krantz <SKrantz at uno.edu>
>>>>>>> Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:39 PM
>>>>>>> Subject: FW: low res committees in the Fall
>>>>>>> To: Bill Lavender <WLavende at uno.edu>
>>>>>>> Cc: Peter A Schock <PSchock at uno.edu>, Fredrick P Barton <
>>>>>>> FBarton at uno.edu>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Dear Bill?The news I have for you is not good, and I apologize for
>>>>>>> relaying it through e-mail, rather than face-to-face.  But I
>>>>>>> completely understand your wish to know the disposition of your
>>>>>>> employment as soon as possible. Your position will be eliminated.  We have
>>>>>>> put the Press on hiatus and are relocating the CWW Low-Res to an
>>>>>>> existing faculty member.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would very much like you to work through the month of August, so
>>>>>>> that we can make the transition as smooth as possible.  By working through
>>>>>>> August, you will also complete 15 years of employment at UNO.  I encourage
>>>>>>> you to seek advice from HR as soon as you return from your trip tounderstand what benefits you are entitled
>>>>>>> to.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I am very sorry to bring you this news; although it does not make
>>>>>>> the news any easier to swallow, I want to assure you that you are
>>>>>>> not alone.  During this period, 19 Liberal Arts employees?both faculty and
>>>>>>> staff?are losing their jobs.  I am afraid that there will be more tocome.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Please make an appointment to see me at your very earliest
>>>>>>> convenience when you get back.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Susan
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> Anny Ballardini
>>>>>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>>>>>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>>>>>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>>>>>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>>>>>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a
>>>>>> dancing star!
>>>>>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>>>>>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>>>>>> Giovenale
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>>>
>>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Anny Ballardini
>>>>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>>>>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>>>>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>>>>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>>>>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a
>>>>> dancing star!
>>>>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>>>>
>>>>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>>>>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>>>>> Giovenale
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Anny Ballardini
>>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
>>> star!
>>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>>
>>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>>> Giovenale
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>>
>>  ------------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>  ------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Aug  2 14:41:52 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 14:41:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] a request
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsyTDDxjxNAFYyuTTGWHQ7+fMrswFzMB2s0wwA6inKs1LGg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABahUhXBi0WxQnDd7hqs+9o+Q0hr3f4fR=ib_H89u+PH9=Q5+Q@mail.gmail.com><6E8BD88DE7A741258036825FCFE214B5@BobHP><CADy9827
	aSk3NNzGqACRB5AmWP1aetNeRkjbgRCGEMJi82Qrb3Q@mail.gmail.com><CADy9827eFf25LhSEBsL5GOE817Kk7tjqyzynVNNMhSU1WWcG-Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<5B4192E2227D41078298BA13B1172C4B@BobHP><CADy982523XbRNG4026g--tCj15jbuqJqXV6utz87gbwcnDLcyQ@mail.gmail.com><8F17171A220A4153A2
	DF9A275586E502@BobHP>
	<CA+9UsyTDDxjxNAFYyuTTGWHQ7+fMrswFzMB2s0wwA6inKs1LGg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9B109F58EC7E425DBF6546D54BA194C1@BobHP>



From: Anny Ballardini 
Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2012 1:59 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] a request

He is the editor, I have that anthology here.
And you could find it! Wow.  I don?t know where my copy is and I?m in it!
--Bob
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Thu Aug  2 14:52:56 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 20:52:56 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] a request
In-Reply-To: <9B109F58EC7E425DBF6546D54BA194C1@BobHP>
References: <CABahUhXBi0WxQnDd7hqs+9o+Q0hr3f4fR=ib_H89u+PH9=Q5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<6E8BD88DE7A741258036825FCFE214B5@BobHP>
	<CADy9827eFf25LhSEBsL5GOE817Kk7tjqyzynVNNMhSU1WWcG-Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<5B4192E2227D41078298BA13B1172C4B@BobHP>
	<CADy982523XbRNG4026g--tCj15jbuqJqXV6utz87gbwcnDLcyQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9UsyTDDxjxNAFYyuTTGWHQ7+fMrswFzMB2s0wwA6inKs1LGg@mail.gmail.com>
	<9B109F58EC7E425DBF6546D54BA194C1@BobHP>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyQMgBVkE1mGmLp678szrp7Qs=XfMAYg9V=+c-Si7h_-Dw@mail.gmail.com>

now I found it:

Editor Bill Lavender
Introduction by Hank Lazer
The University of Alabama Press
Tuscaloosa and London
2003

and Bob Grumman has almost 10 pages, from 60-69

(this because you were nice before)

Plenty of people in that anthology that I know. Also Skip is in it.


On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 8:41 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:

>
>
>  *From:* Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 02, 2012 1:59 PM
> *To:* NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] a request
>
>  He is the editor, I have that anthology here.
>
>  And you could find it! Wow.  I don?t know where my copy is and I?m in it!
>
>  --Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From halvard at gmail.com  Thu Aug  2 14:43:09 2012
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 13:43:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] a request
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsyR7tNdupJkENrzUR5=wRSjXTFgrw2nbhHZfiObkiS21-w@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABahUhXBi0WxQnDd7hqs+9o+Q0hr3f4fR=ib_H89u+PH9=Q5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9UsyR7tNdupJkENrzUR5=wRSjXTFgrw2nbhHZfiObkiS21-w@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANrCfqE2Ot+a4Wr70PArfwxKSBG--6NCzS6q9qVfyRdwX9n3kw@mail.gmail.com>

No reasons, eh? At least they didn't outsource it.


Mastering this universe one Higgs boson at a time.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com

On Barcelona <http://onbarcelona.blogspot.com/> (submissions sought; email
to my address above)
Truck: http://halvard-johnson.blogspot.mx/
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
Remains To Be Seen <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>*, Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. II) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>,** Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. III) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Sonnets
from the Basque & Other Poems <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>
*, *Mainly Black <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Obras
P?blicas <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **The Perfection
of Mozart's Third Eye and Other
Sonnets<http://www.scribd.com/doc/27039868/Halvard-Johnson-THE-PERFECTION-OF-MOZART-S-THIRD-EYE-Other-Sonnets>
; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of
Clones<http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Entrance-Clones-Halvard-Johnson/dp/0965404390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283182804&sr=8-1>
; **Tango Bouquet <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **Theory
of Harmony<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall04/theory1.pdf>
; **Rapsodie espagnole<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/rapsodi.pdf>
; **Guide to the Tokyo
Subway<http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Tokyo-Subway-Other-Poems/dp/0971487316/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283183153&sr=1-3>
; **The Sonnet Project<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/hsonnet.pdf>
; **G(e)nome <http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall03/genome.pdf>; **Winter
Journey <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.winter.html>;
**Eclipse<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.eclipse.html>
; **The Dance of the Red Swan <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.dance.html>
; **Transparencies & Projections<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.transp.html>
*




On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Anny Ballardini
<anny.ballardini at gmail.com>wrote:

> I do not think I am infringing any privacy by sending the present over.
> Thank you to those who will take the time to go through it. My best, Anny
>
> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:00 PM, Bill Lavender <bill.lavender at gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Hi. This is going to just a few people, mostly alums, who will have
>> nothing to lose by posting this info. Some of the students have started a
>> petition and I would really appreciate if you could post a link on
>> facebook.
>>
>> Some of you don't even know what I'm taking about; see below for that:
>>
>> Here is the petition:
>>
>> http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/president-of-the-university-of-new-orleans-louisiana-maintain-bill-lavender-as-the-director-of-uno-s-low-residency-mfa
>>
>> Also, here is the FB page devoted to the issue:
>> http://www.facebook.com/SaveTheUnoLowResProgram
>>
>> And for those of you who haven't heard, the story:
>>
>> Below is an email I received from my Dean while I was in Edinburgh this
>> summer. I then  heard from my GA that they have changed the locks on my
>> office. I'll leave it to you to judge the fairness of this action after
>> my 15 years at UNO during which I created and developed one of the most
>> unique and successful low res programs in the country.
>>
>>
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Susan E Krantz <SKrantz at uno.edu>
>> Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:39 PM
>> Subject: FW: low res committees in the Fall
>> To: Bill Lavender <WLavende at uno.edu>
>> Cc: Peter A Schock <PSchock at uno.edu>, Fredrick P Barton <FBarton at uno.edu>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Bill?The news I have for you is not good, and I apologize for
>> relaying it through e-mail, rather than face-to-face.  But I completely
>> understand your wish to know the disposition of your employment as soon
>> as possible. Your position will be eliminated.  We have put the Press on
>> hiatus and are relocating the CWW Low-Res to an existing faculty member.
>>
>>
>>
>> I would very much like you to work through the month of August, so that
>> we can make the transition as smooth as possible.  By working through
>> August, you will also complete 15 years of employment at UNO.  I encourage
>> you to seek advice from HR as soon as you return from your trip tounderstand what benefits you are entitled
>> to.
>>
>>
>>
>> I am very sorry to bring you this news; although it does not make the
>> news any easier to swallow, I want to assure you that you are not
>> alone.  During this period, 19 Liberal Arts employees?both faculty and
>> staff?are losing their jobs.  I am afraid that there will be more tocome.
>>
>>
>>
>> Please make an appointment to see me at your very earliest convenience
>> when you get back.
>>
>>
>> Susan
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Aug  2 15:37:46 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 15:37:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] a request
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsyQMgBVkE1mGmLp678szrp7Qs=XfMAYg9V=+c-Si7h_-Dw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABahUhXBi0WxQnDd7hqs+9o+Q0hr3f4fR=ib_H89u+PH9=Q5+Q@mail.gmail.com><6E8BD88DE7A741258036825FCFE214B5@BobHP><CADy9827
	eFf25LhSEBsL5GOE817Kk7tjqyzynVNNMhSU1WWcG-Q@mail.gmail.com><5B4192E2227D41078298BA13B1172C4B@BobHP><CADy982523XbRNG4026g--tCj15
	jbuqJqXV6utz87gbwcnDLcyQ@mail.gmail.com><CA+9UsyTDDxjxNAFYyuTTGWHQ7+fMrswFzMB2s0wwA6inKs1LGg@mail.gmail.com><9B109F58EC7E425DBF
	6546D54BA194C1@BobHP>
	<CA+9UsyQMgBVkE1mGmLp678szrp7Qs=XfMAYg9V=+c-Si7h_-Dw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <D49270AE5E954ED9AA550CE040D9C676@BobHP>



From: Anny Ballardini 
Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2012 2:52 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] a request

now I found it: 

Editor Bill Lavender
Introduction by Hank Lazer
The University of Alabama Press
Tuscaloosa and London
2003

and Bob Grumman has almost 10 pages, from 60-69

And the cover, and the cover!!!!  (Didn?t remember I had so
many pages.  Must be the most ever in a magazine.)

(this because you were nice before)

Nah, I was just as bad then as now, but they didn?t know me well,
and they did know Jake Berry who got me in without telling them
what I was like, and he?s a very nice guy.

Plenty of people in that anthology that I know. Also Skip is in it.


On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 8:41 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:



  From: Anny Ballardini 
  Sent: Thursday, August 02, 2012 1:59 PM
  To: NewPoetry List 
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] a request

  He is the editor, I have that anthology here.
  And you could find it! Wow.  I don?t know where my copy is and I?m in it!
  --Bob

  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry






-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Thu Aug  2 15:49:20 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 21:49:20 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] a request
In-Reply-To: <CANrCfqE2Ot+a4Wr70PArfwxKSBG--6NCzS6q9qVfyRdwX9n3kw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CABahUhXBi0WxQnDd7hqs+9o+Q0hr3f4fR=ib_H89u+PH9=Q5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9UsyR7tNdupJkENrzUR5=wRSjXTFgrw2nbhHZfiObkiS21-w@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANrCfqE2Ot+a4Wr70PArfwxKSBG--6NCzS6q9qVfyRdwX9n3kw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsySRnNGtaZjRRkUNWiFC4PVvceH=7BEPU7mhTcmpK2DiQQ@mail.gmail.com>

I can finally state that the Low-Res Program is financially successful, and
the UNO Press also. They simply want to get rid of the man. But we are
making things difficult, do not worry Hal.

On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 8:43 PM, Halvard Johnson <halvard at gmail.com> wrote:

> No reasons, eh? At least they didn't outsource it.
>
>
> Mastering this universe one Higgs boson at a time.
>
> Hal
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
>
> halvard at gmail.com
>
> On Barcelona <http://onbarcelona.blogspot.com/> (submissions sought;
> email to my address above)
> Truck: http://halvard-johnson.blogspot.mx/
> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
> <http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
> https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/
>  <http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
> Remains To Be Seen <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>*, Remains
> To Be Seen (Vol. II) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>,** Remains
> To Be Seen (Vol. III) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Sonnets
> from the Basque & Other Poems<https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>
> *, *Mainly Black <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Obras
> P?blicas <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **The Perfection
> of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets<http://www.scribd.com/doc/27039868/Halvard-Johnson-THE-PERFECTION-OF-MOZART-S-THIRD-EYE-Other-Sonnets>
> ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones<http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Entrance-Clones-Halvard-Johnson/dp/0965404390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283182804&sr=8-1>
> ; **Tango Bouquet <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **Theory
> of Harmony<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall04/theory1.pdf>
> ; **Rapsodie espagnole<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/rapsodi.pdf>
> ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway<http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Tokyo-Subway-Other-Poems/dp/0971487316/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283183153&sr=1-3>
> ; **The Sonnet Project<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/hsonnet.pdf>
> ; **G(e)nome <http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall03/genome.pdf>; **Winter
> Journey <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.winter.html>; **Eclipse<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.eclipse.html>
> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.dance.html>
> ; **Transparencies & Projections<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.transp.html>
> *
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> I do not think I am infringing any privacy by sending the present over.
>> Thank you to those who will take the time to go through it. My best, Anny
>>
>> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 4:00 PM, Bill Lavender <bill.lavender at gmail.com>wrote:
>>
>>> Hi. This is going to just a few people, mostly alums, who will have
>>> nothing to lose by posting this info. Some of the students have started a
>>> petition and I would really appreciate if you could post a link on
>>> facebook.
>>>
>>> Some of you don't even know what I'm taking about; see below for that:
>>>
>>> Here is the petition:
>>>
>>> http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitions/president-of-the-university-of-new-orleans-louisiana-maintain-bill-lavender-as-the-director-of-uno-s-low-residency-mfa
>>>
>>> Also, here is the FB page devoted to the issue:
>>> http://www.facebook.com/SaveTheUnoLowResProgram
>>>
>>> And for those of you who haven't heard, the story:
>>>
>>> Below is an email I received from my Dean while I was in Edinburgh this
>>> summer. I then  heard from my GA that they have changed the locks on my
>>> office. I'll leave it to you to judge the fairness of this action after
>>> my 15 years at UNO during which I created and developed one of the most
>>> unique and successful low res programs in the country.
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: Susan E Krantz <SKrantz at uno.edu>
>>> Date: Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 7:39 PM
>>> Subject: FW: low res committees in the Fall
>>> To: Bill Lavender <WLavende at uno.edu>
>>> Cc: Peter A Schock <PSchock at uno.edu>, Fredrick P Barton <FBarton at uno.edu
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Dear Bill?The news I have for you is not good, and I apologize for
>>> relaying it through e-mail, rather than face-to-face.  But I completely
>>> understand your wish to know the disposition of your employment as soon
>>> as possible. Your position will be eliminated.  We have put the Press on
>>> hiatus and are relocating the CWW Low-Res to an existing faculty member.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I would very much like you to work through the month of August, so that
>>> we can make the transition as smooth as possible.  By working through
>>> August, you will also complete 15 years of employment at UNO.  I encourage
>>> you to seek advice from HR as soon as you return from your trip tounderstand what benefits you are entitled
>>> to.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> I am very sorry to bring you this news; although it does not make the
>>> news any easier to swallow, I want to assure you that you are not
>>> alone.  During this period, 19 Liberal Arts employees?both faculty and
>>> staff?are losing their jobs.  I am afraid that there will be more tocome.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Please make an appointment to see me at your very earliest convenience
>>> when you get back.
>>>
>>>
>>> Susan
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Anny Ballardini
>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
>> star!
>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>
>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>> Giovenale
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Thu Aug  2 15:51:48 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 2 Aug 2012 21:51:48 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] a request
In-Reply-To: <D49270AE5E954ED9AA550CE040D9C676@BobHP>
References: <CABahUhXBi0WxQnDd7hqs+9o+Q0hr3f4fR=ib_H89u+PH9=Q5+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<6E8BD88DE7A741258036825FCFE214B5@BobHP>
	<5B4192E2227D41078298BA13B1172C4B@BobHP>
	<CA+9UsyTDDxjxNAFYyuTTGWHQ7+fMrswFzMB2s0wwA6inKs1LGg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9UsyQMgBVkE1mGmLp678szrp7Qs=XfMAYg9V=+c-Si7h_-Dw@mail.gmail.com>
	<D49270AE5E954ED9AA550CE040D9C676@BobHP>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyTtAa3wXm=pC62i_DbdNfHG_oEp0eZfBAixEjYHo24-xg@mail.gmail.com>

Cover and interior design by Bill Lavender
pages: 277

all written, not like the ones they do nowadays, he he

On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 9:37 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:

>
>
>  *From:* Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 02, 2012 2:52 PM
> *To:* NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] a request
>
> now I found it:
>
> Editor Bill Lavender
> Introduction by Hank Lazer
> The University of Alabama Press
> Tuscaloosa and London
> 2003
>
> and Bob Grumman has almost 10 pages, from 60-69
>
> And the cover, and the cover!!!!  (Didn?t remember I had so
> many pages.  Must be the most ever in a magazine.)
>
> (this because you were nice before)
>
> Nah, I was just as bad then as now, but they didn?t know me well,
> and they did know Jake Berry who got me in without telling them
> what I was like, and he?s a very nice guy.
>
> Plenty of people in that anthology that I know. Also Skip is in it.
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 8:41 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>>  *From:* Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Thursday, August 02, 2012 1:59 PM
>>  *To:* NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] a request
>>
>>  He is the editor, I have that anthology here.
>>
>>  And you could find it! Wow.  I don?t know where my copy is and I?m in
>> it!
>>
>>  --Bob
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>>
>
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From by.tjmst at gmail.com  Fri Aug  3 00:57:20 2012
From: by.tjmst at gmail.com (BY TJMST)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 05:57:20 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] New-Poetry Digest, Vol 24, Issue 33
In-Reply-To: <mailman.5.1343577610.46048.new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <mailman.5.1343577610.46048.new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <CACU_Fg5yRdkRDUvsoNKd5UOF3Yinuypx2Y5swq9-RrPQAMEp9g@mail.gmail.com>

A SLICE OF THINK TANK...FROM GBEMI TIJANI MST

*I SEE A TREND IN POSITIVE POTENT JUXTAPOSITION* in the posts I?ve read
about half an hour  tonight.. I don't think it would be odd to juxtapose
Valerie and Karin s thoughtful reciprocity in mutual respect of boundaries
and giving back love to the community that love you. Again we have not yet
evolved to LOVING ENOUGH IS NOT EASY popularized  by an American writer and
astrologer,Linda Goodman. She wrote: loving those who love you isn't t a
big deal, but loving those who demonstrate all manners of evil to you is
much more powerful and that you too can be a saint -if you could do that!.
Evidently today?s leaders and followers in all walks of human society -the
church inclusive may not have fulfilled or consider it spiritually an
unusual  weapon of wiping away hatred or attrition or dissolving conflict
at the community and international levels. We do know we would need more
practical homely logic to try to sell or experiment this philosophy of
loving the unlovable.

Yet I don?t think this kind of supposedly esoteric mindset of Linda is
exclusive!

There is a more humane -oriented, Thomas Merton that meditatively (as if  in
a trance) queried  his SOCIAL JUSTICE while walking by  a National Registry
Plaque that commemorates a revelation of Transcendent Love. In November
2004 in Louisville,Kentucky,@ Mohammad Ali Boulevard he wrote ...'I was
suddenly overwhelmed with the realization that I loved all these people
that they were mine and I was theirs...There s no way of telling people
that they are walking around shining like the sun 'He had a revelation of
love, awe and the conviction that he MUST GIVE HIS LIFE FULLY TO SOCIAL
JUSTICE IF HE WAS FULLY TO LOVE GOD. Thanks to Gabriel Gudding that posts
this quote to New Poetry of Sept 11,2005...I couldn't have remembered a
relevant reflection more than the revelation of love to Merton at the
Walnut side of the shopping district in Louisville. He further reflected
that where there s a deep,simple,all embracing love of man,of the created
world of living and inanimate things,then there will be respect for
life,for freedom ( which Dr Deon also reechoed significantly in his
reactions to Denise et al),for truth, for justice and there will be humble
love  of God.

In the absence of this kind of love ,he said there cannot be peace and even
fear alone will not  be sufficient to prevent a war of total destruction
-despite all the laws,treaties,edicts,anathemas,spying satellites,hanging
cameras on the moon -as long as you see your fellow man being essentially
to be feared, mistrusted, hated and destroyed -peace will  elude us.

I will also attempt more juxtapositions which are  relevant  contributions
to the discourse .Dr Deon got it right by identifying strength and weakness
of people with social conscience -pointedly their freedom and the extent to
which they can stretch this  -if possible to sticking place -- to annul or
prevent modern slavery or tyranny of governments. Had it been we all had
the same mindset of not joining the corrupt and also of not folding arms
and closing our ambrosial hearts for positive change today's
illegitimacy,oppression could have been limited to tolerance level. Yet
individual freedom should also not be restricted to choosing a spiritually
or philosophically mind  healing  path from existing or yet to be
initiated,propounded or hypothesized  faith or ideology.The essence in
adhering to any of these is how clearly beneficent and transferable and
useful and make others more humane or productively responsible to others
concerns and help to build benevolently impartial leadership in the
lifetime this teaching prevail .Gbemi,03/08/2012 02.30am



Addenda to juxtations by Gbemi Tijani:

Maybe human beings will be difficult to drive home as gregarious beings if
all are the same in our submissiveness to leadership or benign governance.

I must not ignore the naturalness which Denise  injected by amplifying  that
often times we are subject to  MOTHER NATURE  s COMPLETE CONTROL over her
creation of which we are just a minute part!. We have seen our weakness and
defeat in our attempt to fight hurricane and tsunami scientifically
especially how the counter accelerator by our scientists against the
furious wind did not hold nor petrify the wind.Oh we thank Nature for
limiting the disaster hitherto. I surmise this ought to be additional
posers for leaders who thought consumerism and allied inordinate
acquisition syndrome is more vital to their existence or happiness than
equating opportunities for EFFECTIVE LIVING  FOR OTHERS .By this 21st C.we
should be planning RADIANT HEALTH FOR ALL ---or again for the highly
privileged -if OPTIMAL HEALTH had been experienced by ALL on planet earth.
Despite the fact that we have not tapped 10% of world water yet an average
of 35-40% in developing countries have access to potable water and adequate
sanitation. Basic electricity from grid elude more than 70% in some African
countries till this moment whereas this same countries have enormous water,
coal and wind that can be developed by their rich economies despite the
perennial unchecked loot overseas.

Also more biologically vital is the view of DR JAY on SEX & POWER .Yes,
very truthfully sex is an instinct that are always not neatly controlled
-for better for worse. Again libido also plays a role in why they become
needlessly consumerist or corrupt. A time I opine that libido rules the
world directly or indirectly. Though of course there s a positive side
-could we have been produced without procreative sex?



On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 5:00 PM, <new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu> wrote:

> Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to
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> Today's Topics:
>
>    1. Amy De'Ath @ PEN American + Denying the Bird Within (amy king)
>    2. Re: Amy De'Ath @ PEN American + Denying the Bird Within (Skip Fox)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2012 10:15:05 -0700 (PDT)
> From: amy king <amyhappens at yahoo.com>
> To: UB Poetics discussion group <POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU>,
>         "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views"
>         <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Amy De'Ath @ PEN American + Denying the Bird
>         Within
> Message-ID:
>         <1343495705.81891.YahooMailNeo at web180802.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
>
> Amy De?Ath: from ?Caribou? @ PEN American Center --?
> http://www.pen.org/blog/?p=14951
>
>
>
> ~~~~~
>
> Mary Ann Sullivan for videotaped the poem, "Denying the Bird Within," here
> -?http://youtu.be/h3OT8WbxWeQ
>
>
> [Text here -?
> http://housefirebooks.com/denying-the-bird-within-poetry-by-amy-king/ ]
>
>
> ~~~~~
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>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2012 06:23:42 -0500
> From: Skip Fox <fox.skip at gmail.com>
> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Amy De'Ath @ PEN American + Denying the Bird
>         Within
> Message-ID:
>         <
> CADy9825xcN_aFeRd43s+D4fMb2F8x5Sbmx20X6z-S+-ZdcFi8w at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"
>
> Lovely video.
>
> On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 12:15 PM, amy king <amyhappens at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > Amy De?Ath: from ?Caribou? @ PEN American Center --
> > http://www.pen.org/blog/?p=14951
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~
> >
> > Mary Ann Sullivan for videotaped the poem, "Denying the Bird Within,"
> here
> > - http://youtu.be/h3OT8WbxWeQ
> >
> > [Text here -
> > http://housefirebooks.com/denying-the-bird-within-poetry-by-amy-king/ ]
> >
> >
> > ~~~~~
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > New-Poetry mailing list
> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Fri Aug  3 08:19:15 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 14:19:15 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Professor Bill Lavender
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsyQamqTQrEPJre8MJ2pNcW1+DJWfzu-idixSER06_UW6YQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9UsyQamqTQrEPJre8MJ2pNcW1+DJWfzu-idixSER06_UW6YQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyRh0UwhFx+p_W_=ZWVKstfdjmO8955OGcAiNC=gVjaxNQ@mail.gmail.com>

Here is my second letter. This time Dean Susan E. Krantz was added, as a
matter of fact it is directed to her. My first was to the President and
Provost.
It explains better what I understood is behind Bill Lavender's dismissal.

Please, someone tell me if the mail made it to the list with the attachment
since I cannot see my mails. Thank you, Anny


---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 1:53 PM
Subject: Professor Bill Lavender
To: Susan E Krantz <SKrantz at uno.edu>
Cc: pfos at uno.edu, lparadis at uno.edu


Dear Dean Susan E. Krantz,

cc.: President, Dr. Peter Fos

       Provost, Dr. Louis Paradise


I already sent an E-mail to the President, Dr. Peter Fos, and to the
Provost, Dr. Louis Paradise, yesterday.

It is my understanding (well, not only mine but of hundreds of people by
now) that both the Low Residency Program and the UNO Press are financially
healthy, and that Bill Lavender?s dismissal is not due to the economic cuts
that weigh on the educational system in general.
Let me play it clear and clean: why are you firing Bill Lavender? Who is
behind this move? Who ? it must be one person of the faculty that wants
Bill?s successful employment. This is plain psychology. Unless the entire
Administration of the University of New Orleans has officially declared
they want to commit suicide.

The President and the Provost of the University of New Orleans have been
deluged by E-mails by people who voiced their disapproval. Bill Lavender?s
students have started an online petition that has gathered in one day over
300 signatures. I am sure this goes beyond any sad consideration Dean Susan
E. Krantz could have envisaged in the moment in which she sent Bill
Lavender and E-mail while he was working in Edinburgh, Scotland, for his
students? summer residency abroad. I was there and I can testify, as were ?
how many were the students there this year? ? a remarkable number of other
people.

This shows that Professor Bill Lavender is a Leader Extraordinaire in
Education. I am referring to the Provost?s, Louis V. Paradise, paper that
appeared on The Journal of Education Research, Vol.  85, No. 5 (May - Jun.,
1992), pp. 303-311): *Extraordinary Leaders in Education: Understanding
Transformational Leadership*, written together with Peggy C. Kirby, and
Margaret I. King . As the authors underline,

Although transformational leaders may be charismatic, the motivational
effectiveness of observable, teachable leader behaviors such as
intellectual situation are supported in both studies. Our finding has
direct implications for the training of future leaders in education. It
refutes the ?leaders are born, not made? adage, suggesting that skills in
educating and challenging followers should be major considerations in
leadership training.


we are not dealing with the charisma that permeates a Hollywood star these
days, but with an actual Educational Leader. If we want to describe Bill
Lavender?s leadership in education, in terms of ?transformational leader?
we will have to highlight his ?intellectual stimulation, commitment,
enthusiasm, creativity, patience, honesty.? To which his capacity in
transforming the so-called ?raw matter? of his students into professional
?success,? can be drawn by the careers you can verify through a simple
search.

In terms of ?transactional leader,? Bill Lavender has often used
?contingent reward,? and ?management-by-exception.?

The disapproval that has reached UNO administrative offices after Dean
Susan E. Krantz?s E-mail, shows that the general satisfaction of the
teachings imparted by our Professor Bill Lavender is a fact. As Paulette
Swatzfager of the University Writing Program at the Rochester Institute of
Technology has underlined , he is a valuable asset for the University of
New Orleans.

We have all been taking risks in this issue, since our letters have been
duly signed, you should wish to contact us we will stand up to what we have
written.

I also want to mention that I lived in New Orleans in the ?70s for about a
decade. Tulane and Loyola were the Universities to the point that when
someone told me he was attending the University of New Orleans, I corrected
him, ?Tulane or Loyola?? Bill Lavender, in his fifteen years of work has
done for the University of New Orleans at a national or better,
international level, more than decades of professional work carried out by
tenured people hidden in the damp shade of Louisiana.

What was UNO Press before 2007, before Lavender started pulling up its
sorts and projecting them into an international dimension? Nobody had ever
heard of it. The present statement requires your deepest acknowledgment and
your saddest apologies for what you have done in these days to a person who
has given his complete Self to an Institution that in this moment is
superficially dismissing him. Not only to him, Bill, but to all of us, his
students, friends, co-workers, co-writers, admirers, readers!

Let me quote from Dr. Paulette Swarzfager?s letter again:

 Although Bill is not a tenured faulty member, current AAUP and AFT/AFLCIO
recommendations are unanimous that terminations of full time faculty (even
adjunct) be the result of a transparent and careful process.  Whether or
not Bill considers appeal or complaint, this process has severely hurt the
reputation of UNO as an institution.  It has not been that long since UNO
was sanctioned by the AAUP (after Katrina).

And she continues:

After Bill's 15 years of such service, particularly after service that
rebuilt and improved the financial and academic status of UNO, I am amazed
that you seem not to value his central role in programs that are building a
national reputation (in NY, and CA, and in many other states and
countries). Bill Lavender's name is linked to these programs.  Anyone who
tries to replace him will face an uphill struggle answering all the
questions about why the man who has developed these programs has been
dismissed.


I can only believe that you both did not know the seriousness of this
decision.


I could quote extensively from other letters that were sent to the
President, Mr. Peter Fos, and to the Provost, Mr. Louis Paradise, maybe
Dean Susan E. Krantz hasn?t been informed of them, yet?

I am not only asking you to reconsider your decision, I am asking you to
write a new contract for Bill Lavender as a tenured Professor,  and to let
UNO Press gather the success that such an incorruptible man has been able
to build, and that such success should continue under his own direction.

My letter will be made public.

My best wishes,
Anny Ballardini

Dr. Anny Ballardini

University of Verona, Italy
Certified Journalist, Translator, Simultaneous and Consecutive Interpreter


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale




-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Aug  3 10:25:42 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 10:25:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Professor Bill Lavender
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsyRh0UwhFx+p_W_=ZWVKstfdjmO8955OGcAiNC=gVjaxNQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9UsyQamqTQrEPJre8MJ2pNcW1+DJWfzu-idixSER06_UW6YQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9UsyRh0UwhFx+p_W_=ZWVKstfdjmO8955OGcAiNC=gVjaxNQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1F403E29EFEF4E19A70711948CABA2E6@BobHP>

I got it, Anny?nice job.

From: Anny Ballardini 
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2012 8:19 AM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Professor Bill Lavender

Here is my second letter. This time Dean Susan E. Krantz was added, as a matter of fact it is directed to her. My first was to the President and Provost.  
It explains better what I understood is behind Bill Lavender's dismissal.

Please, someone tell me if the mail made it to the list with the attachment since I cannot see my mails. Thank you, Anny



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 1:53 PM
Subject: Professor Bill Lavender
To: Susan E Krantz <SKrantz at uno.edu>
Cc: pfos at uno.edu, lparadis at uno.edu



Dear Dean Susan E. Krantz,

      cc.: President, Dr. Peter Fos
             Provost, Dr. Louis Paradise

I already sent an E-mail to the President, Dr. Peter Fos, and to the Provost, Dr. Louis Paradise, yesterday. 

It is my understanding (well, not only mine but of hundreds of people by now) that both the Low Residency Program and the UNO Press are financially healthy, and that Bill Lavender?s dismissal is not due to the economic cuts that weigh on the educational system in general.
Let me play it clear and clean: why are you firing Bill Lavender? Who is behind this move? Who ? it must be one person of the faculty that wants Bill?s successful employment. This is plain psychology. Unless the entire Administration of the University of New Orleans has officially declared they want to commit suicide. 

The President and the Provost of the University of New Orleans have been deluged by E-mails by people who voiced their disapproval. Bill Lavender?s students have started an online petition that has gathered in one day over 300 signatures. I am sure this goes beyond any sad consideration Dean Susan E. Krantz could have envisaged in the moment in which she sent Bill Lavender and E-mail while he was working in Edinburgh, Scotland, for his students? summer residency abroad. I was there and I can testify, as were ? how many were the students there this year? ? a remarkable number of other people. 

This shows that Professor Bill Lavender is a Leader Extraordinaire in Education. I am referring to the Provost?s, Louis V. Paradise, paper that appeared on The Journal of Education Research, Vol.  85, No. 5 (May - Jun., 1992), pp. 303-311): Extraordinary Leaders in Education: Understanding Transformational Leadership, written together with Peggy C. Kirby, and Margaret I. King . As the authors underline, 

      Although transformational leaders may be charismatic, the motivational effectiveness of observable, teachable leader behaviors such as intellectual situation are supported in both studies. Our finding has direct implications for the training of future leaders in education. It refutes the ?leaders are born, not made? adage, suggesting that skills in educating and challenging followers should be major considerations in leadership training.

we are not dealing with the charisma that permeates a Hollywood star these days, but with an actual Educational Leader. If we want to describe Bill Lavender?s leadership in education, in terms of ?transformational leader? we will have to highlight his ?intellectual stimulation, commitment, enthusiasm, creativity, patience, honesty.? To which his capacity in transforming the so-called ?raw matter? of his students into professional ?success,? can be drawn by the careers you can verify through a simple search. 

In terms of ?transactional leader,? Bill Lavender has often used ?contingent reward,? and ?management-by-exception.? 

The disapproval that has reached UNO administrative offices after Dean Susan E. Krantz?s E-mail, shows that the general satisfaction of the teachings imparted by our Professor Bill Lavender is a fact. As Paulette Swatzfager of the University Writing Program at the Rochester Institute of Technology has underlined , he is a valuable asset for the University of New Orleans. 

We have all been taking risks in this issue, since our letters have been duly signed, you should wish to contact us we will stand up to what we have written.

I also want to mention that I lived in New Orleans in the ?70s for about a decade. Tulane and Loyola were the Universities to the point that when someone told me he was attending the University of New Orleans, I corrected him, ?Tulane or Loyola?? Bill Lavender, in his fifteen years of work has done for the University of New Orleans at a national or better, international level, more than decades of professional work carried out by tenured people hidden in the damp shade of Louisiana. 

What was UNO Press before 2007, before Lavender started pulling up its sorts and projecting them into an international dimension? Nobody had ever heard of it. The present statement requires your deepest acknowledgment and your saddest apologies for what you have done in these days to a person who has given his complete Self to an Institution that in this moment is superficially dismissing him. Not only to him, Bill, but to all of us, his students, friends, co-workers, co-writers, admirers, readers!

Let me quote from Dr. Paulette Swarzfager?s letter again:

      Although Bill is not a tenured faulty member, current AAUP and AFT/AFLCIO recommendations are unanimous that terminations of full time faculty (even adjunct) be the result of a transparent and careful process.  Whether or not Bill considers appeal or complaint, this process has severely hurt the reputation of UNO as an institution.  It has not been that long since UNO was sanctioned by the AAUP (after Katrina).

And she continues:

      After Bill's 15 years of such service, particularly after service that rebuilt and improved the financial and academic status of UNO, I am amazed that you seem not to value his central role in programs that are building a national reputation (in NY, and CA, and in many other states and countries). Bill Lavender's name is linked to these programs.  Anyone who tries to replace him will face an uphill struggle answering all the questions about why the man who has developed these programs has been dismissed. 

      I can only believe that you both did not know the seriousness of this decision.

I could quote extensively from other letters that were sent to the President, Mr. Peter Fos, and to the Provost, Mr. Louis Paradise, maybe Dean Susan E. Krantz hasn?t been informed of them, yet?

I am not only asking you to reconsider your decision, I am asking you to write a new contract for Bill Lavender as a tenured Professor,  and to let UNO Press gather the success that such an incorruptible man has been able to build, and that such success should continue under his own direction. 

My letter will be made public.

My best wishes,
Anny Ballardini

Dr. Anny Ballardini

University of Verona, Italy
Certified Journalist, Translator, Simultaneous and Consecutive Interpreter


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale






-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From jforjames at aol.com  Fri Aug  3 11:26:12 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 11:26:12 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Dredged up in the Net 2009: JV Cunningham's class
	remarks
Message-ID: <8CF3FA373273952-1BD0-32669@webmail-m089.sysops.aol.com>


http://dgmyers.blogspot.com/2009/03/cunninghams-history-of-criticism.html



Only recently, to my great joy, did I turn up my classnotes. And since today is the twenty-fourth anniversary of his death, I thoughtit fitting to honor Cunningham by distributing some of these notes. I haveincluded about a third of the whole. His admirers, of whom there are many, willbe grateful for his remarks on the history of criticism?the first newpublication of Cunningham material in several years?even in the fragmentaryform in which I offer them here. As he said, in the final note that I have fromthe class, ?Our feeling for fragment as form is an explanation of free verse.?
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From jforjames at aol.com  Fri Aug  3 12:10:15 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 12:10:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Short Takes on Long Poems @ at length
Message-ID: <8CF3FA99A4624DA-1BD0-333B4@webmail-m089.sysops.aol.com>

http://atlengthmag.com/poetry/short-takes-on-long-poems-volume-1/


For our latest feature, we?ve asked 50 poets to weigh in (briefly) on the long poems that interest them. To avoid spending too much time on the usual suspects, we suggested that most of our contributors focus on poems from the last 70 years.






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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Fri Aug  3 13:34:47 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 19:34:47 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] University of New Orleans Press placed on "hiatus" and
 Bill Lavender, its director, fired. Please come and help
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyTbv7OOMLaYDDyJqemNE3Uxiy73WihDstMkHpmOQt_Ccg@mail.gmail.com>

*Readers, scholars, and fellow writers,*

The University of New Orleans Press has be put on "hiatus" and its
motivating editor, Bill Lavender, fired. The presumptive reason was that of
budget constraints, but in fact the Press was cost free. It also published
an international range of writers, many of them prize winners or otherwise
notable. Bill Lavender had, in fact, taken a rather lifeless creature in
2007 and enlivened it with over 100 publications, a remarkable achievement.

In support of UNO Press and in support of Bill Lavender and in support of
fine literature and good reading, please visit UNO Press's site and then
consider signing a petition indicating your support.

(By the way, UNO Press has a new section on Contemporary Poetry which
should be of interest to this list.)

UNO Press:

http://www.unopress.org/content2/

Petition site:

http://www.change.org/petitions/president-of-the-university-of-new-orleans-louisiana-maintain-bill-lavender-as-the-director-of-uno-s-low-residency-mfa

You may also wish to write personal letters to the President and Provost of
UNO:

Provost Louis Paradise, lparadis at uno.edu

President Peter Fos, pfos at uno.edu


Thank you,


Marthe Reed
Skip Fox
Anny Ballardini

-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Fri Aug  3 13:49:02 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 19:49:02 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: University of New Orleans Press placed on
 "hiatus" and Bill Lavender, its director, fired. Please come and help
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsyTbv7OOMLaYDDyJqemNE3Uxiy73WihDstMkHpmOQt_Ccg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9UsyTbv7OOMLaYDDyJqemNE3Uxiy73WihDstMkHpmOQt_Ccg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsySN3uECDa=MhznM+aTWfUj2BEXLz4PhW87wahtWz4T-kQ@mail.gmail.com>

Wrong link, apologies, here is the right one:

Please share as widely as possible:

Keep Bill Lavender as Director of UNO Press


https://www.change.org/petitions/uno-president-peter-fos-provost-louis-paradise-and-dean-susan-krantz-keep-bill-lavender-as-the-director-of-uno-press-4#



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
Date: Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 7:34 PM
Subject: University of New Orleans Press placed on "hiatus" and Bill
Lavender, its director, fired. Please come and help
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views" <
new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>


*Readers, scholars, and fellow writers,*

The University of New Orleans Press has be put on "hiatus" and its
motivating editor, Bill Lavender, fired. The presumptive reason was that of
budget constraints, but in fact the Press was cost free. It also published
an international range of writers, many of them prize winners or otherwise
notable. Bill Lavender had, in fact, taken a rather lifeless creature in
2007 and enlivened it with over 100 publications, a remarkable achievement.

In support of UNO Press and in support of Bill Lavender and in support of
fine literature and good reading, please visit UNO Press's site and then
consider signing a petition indicating your support.

(By the way, UNO Press has a new section on Contemporary Poetry which
should be of interest to this list.)

UNO Press:

http://www.unopress.org/content2/

Petition site:

http://www.change.org/petitions/president-of-the-university-of-new-orleans-louisiana-maintain-bill-lavender-as-the-director-of-uno-s-low-residency-mfa

You may also wish to write personal letters to the President and Provost of
UNO:

Provost Louis Paradise, lparadis at uno.edu

President Peter Fos, pfos at uno.edu


Thank you,


Marthe Reed
Skip Fox
Anny Ballardini

-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale




-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
-------------- next part --------------
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Fri Aug  3 18:00:48 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 00:00:48 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] an open letter for Bill Lavender
Message-ID: <CA+9UsySVAXuHMDLwq4AZrBzJPOuDnVqT0sH7eePrUD8nB7xwSQ@mail.gmail.com>

An open letter to
Fredrick Barton, Director of Creative Writing, fbarton at uno.edu
Susan Krantz, Dean of the College of Liberal Arts,  skrantz at uno.edu
University of New Orleans

Cc: President, Peter Fos
      Provost, Louis Paradise

From: Students of the Low Residency MFA Program

We are now in receipt of Rick Barton's communication to the UNO on-campus
MFA community notifying students that Bill Lavender's position has fallen
victim to the "draconian budget cuts" of the Jindal administration and
thanking him for his service at UNO. The message was forwarded to us by a
concerned on-campus student, for Bill Lavender's reputation is not limited
to the low res program. If you have not seen this email, please see it
pasted below this message.

While we can appreciate this, virtually the only recognition Bill has
received for his 15 years of selfless service to UNO, we will not stand by
and see his dismissal blamed on "budget cuts." You, Barton and Krantz, know
that his dismissal was plotted by you in advance; the "budget cuts" were
merely a convenient screen to hide your true motives.

This is proven by several facts, the most damning of which is the fact the
Barton was actually in San Miguel de Allende at the time Bill's dismissal
was announced, planning to move the study-abroad program there. It is
obvious, then, that Bill's dismissal was a pre-ordained fact, that Barton
was assuming he would no longer be a part of the program at the time he
bought his tickets. Rick Barton, would you like to produce the receipt that
shows the date of purchase of your tickets?

The dishonesty of blaming this unconscionable take-over on budget cuts by
the Jindal administration, while cast as a polite, white lie, perhaps even
as a kind gesture to spare Bill's feelings and ease the enormous emotional
loss that this must be for him, it is in fact the lowest form of
capitulation. The Jindal administration, and the national cartel of
corporations from which he draws his support and his policy, have set their
sights on nothing less than the destruction of public education. When you
lie and blame his dismissal on "budget cuts" you are in fact supporting
this policy, acting as Jindal's emissaries on campus, plotting the
destruction of the very thing you purport to save.

Everyone, of course, in privileged America and Europe, plays the role of
assassin's assistant to one degree or another. We shop at Wal-Mart; we pay
our bills to AT&T; our retirement funds are all invested in the very
corporations which, through ALEC and the other conservative think tanks,
are now writing education policy for conservative politicians. But today we
ask you to give the devil his due, to pull down your masks and tell the
truth.
So now, right now, you two, for the record, in front of all the writing
students at UNO, CWW and low res alike, in front of these alumni, in front
of all these faculty at UNO and all the visiting faculty who have taught
online and in the abroad programs Bill led, faculty at universities all
over the US and Europe, in front of your Provost, President, and Governor,
in front of all the authors Bill published at UNO Press, writers and poets
from America, Italy, Japan, Spain, Ecuador, Zimbabwe, Brazil, England,
France, Algeria, Venezuela, in front, too, of posterity, those who will
come after us seeking truth the way we did when we first came to the
university, having faith that it would be found, in front of all those who
will look back at you and know that you held the keys to knowledge, to
truth, in your time, in front, in short, of the whole world, please tell us
why, after fifteen years of service during which Bill Lavender created and
gave to UNO a degree program of national prominence and high profitability,
generating millions of dollars in tuition that would not have been there
otherwise, and built a press of international distinction that is now in
the unheard-of position of being self-supporting, he has been dismissed
with less notice than is normally afforded to a janitor, and four
professors who were hired less than a year ago have been retained.

-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
-------------- next part --------------
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From fox.skip at gmail.com  Fri Aug  3 18:23:04 2012
From: fox.skip at gmail.com (Skip Fox)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 17:23:04 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] an open letter for Bill Lavender
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsySVAXuHMDLwq4AZrBzJPOuDnVqT0sH7eePrUD8nB7xwSQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9UsySVAXuHMDLwq4AZrBzJPOuDnVqT0sH7eePrUD8nB7xwSQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADy9826UcqSgPOX4exK2M7xLwxue-p6pSvDMOWkYEit49=1Riw@mail.gmail.com>

Lovely to see this. They were very direct, a series of jolts, working in
close as they say.

On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 5:00 PM, Anny Ballardini
<anny.ballardini at gmail.com>wrote:

>
> An open letter to
> Fredrick Barton, Director of Creative Writing, fbarton at uno.edu
> Susan Krantz, Dean of the College of Liberal Arts,  skrantz at uno.edu
> University of New Orleans
>
> Cc: President, Peter Fos
>       Provost, Louis Paradise
>
> From: Students of the Low Residency MFA Program
>
> We are now in receipt of Rick Barton's communication to the UNO on-campus
> MFA community notifying students that Bill Lavender's position has fallen
> victim to the "draconian budget cuts" of the Jindal administration and
> thanking him for his service at UNO. The message was forwarded to us by a
> concerned on-campus student, for Bill Lavender's reputation is not limited
> to the low res program. If you have not seen this email, please see it
> pasted below this message.
>
> While we can appreciate this, virtually the only recognition Bill has
> received for his 15 years of selfless service to UNO, we will not stand by
> and see his dismissal blamed on "budget cuts." You, Barton and Krantz, know
> that his dismissal was plotted by you in advance; the "budget cuts" were
> merely a convenient screen to hide your true motives.
>
> This is proven by several facts, the most damning of which is the fact the
> Barton was actually in San Miguel de Allende at the time Bill's dismissal
> was announced, planning to move the study-abroad program there. It is
> obvious, then, that Bill's dismissal was a pre-ordained fact, that Barton
> was assuming he would no longer be a part of the program at the time he
> bought his tickets. Rick Barton, would you like to produce the receipt that
> shows the date of purchase of your tickets?
>
> The dishonesty of blaming this unconscionable take-over on budget cuts by
> the Jindal administration, while cast as a polite, white lie, perhaps even
> as a kind gesture to spare Bill's feelings and ease the enormous emotional
> loss that this must be for him, it is in fact the lowest form of
> capitulation. The Jindal administration, and the national cartel of
> corporations from which he draws his support and his policy, have set their
> sights on nothing less than the destruction of public education. When you
> lie and blame his dismissal on "budget cuts" you are in fact supporting
> this policy, acting as Jindal's emissaries on campus, plotting the
> destruction of the very thing you purport to save.
>
> Everyone, of course, in privileged America and Europe, plays the role of
> assassin's assistant to one degree or another. We shop at Wal-Mart; we pay
> our bills to AT&T; our retirement funds are all invested in the very
> corporations which, through ALEC and the other conservative think tanks,
> are now writing education policy for conservative politicians. But today we
> ask you to give the devil his due, to pull down your masks and tell the
> truth.
> So now, right now, you two, for the record, in front of all the writing
> students at UNO, CWW and low res alike, in front of these alumni, in front
> of all these faculty at UNO and all the visiting faculty who have taught
> online and in the abroad programs Bill led, faculty at universities all
> over the US and Europe, in front of your Provost, President, and Governor,
> in front of all the authors Bill published at UNO Press, writers and poets
> from America, Italy, Japan, Spain, Ecuador, Zimbabwe, Brazil, England,
> France, Algeria, Venezuela, in front, too, of posterity, those who will
> come after us seeking truth the way we did when we first came to the
> university, having faith that it would be found, in front of all those who
> will look back at you and know that you held the keys to knowledge, to
> truth, in your time, in front, in short, of the whole world, please tell us
> why, after fifteen years of service during which Bill Lavender created and
> gave to UNO a degree program of national prominence and high profitability,
> generating millions of dollars in tuition that would not have been there
> otherwise, and built a press of international distinction that is now in
> the unheard-of position of being self-supporting, he has been dismissed
> with less notice than is normally afforded to a janitor, and four
> professors who were hired less than a year ago have been retained.
>
> --
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Fri Aug  3 18:24:27 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 00:24:27 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] an open letter for Bill Lavender
In-Reply-To: <CADy9826UcqSgPOX4exK2M7xLwxue-p6pSvDMOWkYEit49=1Riw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9UsySVAXuHMDLwq4AZrBzJPOuDnVqT0sH7eePrUD8nB7xwSQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADy9826UcqSgPOX4exK2M7xLwxue-p6pSvDMOWkYEit49=1Riw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsySiQ8O=RvbFWwhfRXDZxXMzgu-hryo0gZBzZP6bUZuCew@mail.gmail.com>

So so nice to have some humor! Thank you, Skip!


On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 12:23 AM, Skip Fox <fox.skip at gmail.com> wrote:

> Lovely to see this. They were very direct, a series of jolts, working in
> close as they say.
>
> On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 5:00 PM, Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>>
>> An open letter to
>> Fredrick Barton, Director of Creative Writing, fbarton at uno.edu
>> Susan Krantz, Dean of the College of Liberal Arts,  skrantz at uno.edu
>> University of New Orleans
>>
>> Cc: President, Peter Fos
>>       Provost, Louis Paradise
>>
>> From: Students of the Low Residency MFA Program
>>
>> We are now in receipt of Rick Barton's communication to the UNO on-campus
>> MFA community notifying students that Bill Lavender's position has fallen
>> victim to the "draconian budget cuts" of the Jindal administration and
>> thanking him for his service at UNO. The message was forwarded to us by a
>> concerned on-campus student, for Bill Lavender's reputation is not limited
>> to the low res program. If you have not seen this email, please see it
>> pasted below this message.
>>
>> While we can appreciate this, virtually the only recognition Bill has
>> received for his 15 years of selfless service to UNO, we will not stand by
>> and see his dismissal blamed on "budget cuts." You, Barton and Krantz, know
>> that his dismissal was plotted by you in advance; the "budget cuts" were
>> merely a convenient screen to hide your true motives.
>>
>> This is proven by several facts, the most damning of which is the fact
>> the Barton was actually in San Miguel de Allende at the time Bill's
>> dismissal was announced, planning to move the study-abroad program there.
>> It is obvious, then, that Bill's dismissal was a pre-ordained fact, that
>> Barton was assuming he would no longer be a part of the program at the time
>> he bought his tickets. Rick Barton, would you like to produce the receipt
>> that shows the date of purchase of your tickets?
>>
>> The dishonesty of blaming this unconscionable take-over on budget cuts by
>> the Jindal administration, while cast as a polite, white lie, perhaps even
>> as a kind gesture to spare Bill's feelings and ease the enormous emotional
>> loss that this must be for him, it is in fact the lowest form of
>> capitulation. The Jindal administration, and the national cartel of
>> corporations from which he draws his support and his policy, have set their
>> sights on nothing less than the destruction of public education. When you
>> lie and blame his dismissal on "budget cuts" you are in fact supporting
>> this policy, acting as Jindal's emissaries on campus, plotting the
>> destruction of the very thing you purport to save.
>>
>> Everyone, of course, in privileged America and Europe, plays the role of
>> assassin's assistant to one degree or another. We shop at Wal-Mart; we pay
>> our bills to AT&T; our retirement funds are all invested in the very
>> corporations which, through ALEC and the other conservative think tanks,
>> are now writing education policy for conservative politicians. But today we
>> ask you to give the devil his due, to pull down your masks and tell the
>> truth.
>> So now, right now, you two, for the record, in front of all the writing
>> students at UNO, CWW and low res alike, in front of these alumni, in front
>> of all these faculty at UNO and all the visiting faculty who have taught
>> online and in the abroad programs Bill led, faculty at universities all
>> over the US and Europe, in front of your Provost, President, and Governor,
>> in front of all the authors Bill published at UNO Press, writers and poets
>> from America, Italy, Japan, Spain, Ecuador, Zimbabwe, Brazil, England,
>> France, Algeria, Venezuela, in front, too, of posterity, those who will
>> come after us seeking truth the way we did when we first came to the
>> university, having faith that it would be found, in front of all those who
>> will look back at you and know that you held the keys to knowledge, to
>> truth, in your time, in front, in short, of the whole world, please tell us
>> why, after fifteen years of service during which Bill Lavender created and
>> gave to UNO a degree program of national prominence and high profitability,
>> generating millions of dollars in tuition that would not have been there
>> otherwise, and built a press of international distinction that is now in
>> the unheard-of position of being self-supporting, he has been dismissed
>> with less notice than is normally afforded to a janitor, and four
>> professors who were hired less than a year ago have been retained.
>>
>> --
>> Anny Ballardini
>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
>> star!
>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>
>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>> Giovenale
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
-------------- next part --------------
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From marthereed at gmail.com  Fri Aug  3 18:26:01 2012
From: marthereed at gmail.com (Marthe Reed)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 17:26:01 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] an open letter for Bill Lavender
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsySiQ8O=RvbFWwhfRXDZxXMzgu-hryo0gZBzZP6bUZuCew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9UsySVAXuHMDLwq4AZrBzJPOuDnVqT0sH7eePrUD8nB7xwSQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADy9826UcqSgPOX4exK2M7xLwxue-p6pSvDMOWkYEit49=1Riw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9UsySiQ8O=RvbFWwhfRXDZxXMzgu-hryo0gZBzZP6bUZuCew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJSim+3bmGAeVW5RBM5drq8cwLrG01mzyjRSdyP5wav7p5eeFQ@mail.gmail.com>

Exactly!  Thanks Skip and Anny.

Marthe

On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Anny Ballardini
<anny.ballardini at gmail.com>wrote:

> So so nice to have some humor! Thank you, Skip!
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 12:23 AM, Skip Fox <fox.skip at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Lovely to see this. They were very direct, a series of jolts, working in
>> close as they say.
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 5:00 PM, Anny Ballardini <
>> anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> An open letter to
>>> Fredrick Barton, Director of Creative Writing, fbarton at uno.edu
>>> Susan Krantz, Dean of the College of Liberal Arts,  skrantz at uno.edu
>>> University of New Orleans
>>>
>>> Cc: President, Peter Fos
>>>       Provost, Louis Paradise
>>>
>>> From: Students of the Low Residency MFA Program
>>>
>>> We are now in receipt of Rick Barton's communication to the UNO
>>> on-campus MFA community notifying students that Bill Lavender's position
>>> has fallen victim to the "draconian budget cuts" of the Jindal
>>> administration and thanking him for his service at UNO. The message was
>>> forwarded to us by a concerned on-campus student, for Bill Lavender's
>>> reputation is not limited to the low res program. If you have not seen this
>>> email, please see it pasted below this message.
>>>
>>> While we can appreciate this, virtually the only recognition Bill has
>>> received for his 15 years of selfless service to UNO, we will not stand by
>>> and see his dismissal blamed on "budget cuts." You, Barton and Krantz, know
>>> that his dismissal was plotted by you in advance; the "budget cuts" were
>>> merely a convenient screen to hide your true motives.
>>>
>>> This is proven by several facts, the most damning of which is the fact
>>> the Barton was actually in San Miguel de Allende at the time Bill's
>>> dismissal was announced, planning to move the study-abroad program there.
>>> It is obvious, then, that Bill's dismissal was a pre-ordained fact, that
>>> Barton was assuming he would no longer be a part of the program at the time
>>> he bought his tickets. Rick Barton, would you like to produce the receipt
>>> that shows the date of purchase of your tickets?
>>>
>>> The dishonesty of blaming this unconscionable take-over on budget cuts
>>> by the Jindal administration, while cast as a polite, white lie, perhaps
>>> even as a kind gesture to spare Bill's feelings and ease the enormous
>>> emotional loss that this must be for him, it is in fact the lowest form of
>>> capitulation. The Jindal administration, and the national cartel of
>>> corporations from which he draws his support and his policy, have set their
>>> sights on nothing less than the destruction of public education. When you
>>> lie and blame his dismissal on "budget cuts" you are in fact supporting
>>> this policy, acting as Jindal's emissaries on campus, plotting the
>>> destruction of the very thing you purport to save.
>>>
>>> Everyone, of course, in privileged America and Europe, plays the role of
>>> assassin's assistant to one degree or another. We shop at Wal-Mart; we pay
>>> our bills to AT&T; our retirement funds are all invested in the very
>>> corporations which, through ALEC and the other conservative think tanks,
>>> are now writing education policy for conservative politicians. But today we
>>> ask you to give the devil his due, to pull down your masks and tell the
>>> truth.
>>> So now, right now, you two, for the record, in front of all the writing
>>> students at UNO, CWW and low res alike, in front of these alumni, in front
>>> of all these faculty at UNO and all the visiting faculty who have taught
>>> online and in the abroad programs Bill led, faculty at universities all
>>> over the US and Europe, in front of your Provost, President, and Governor,
>>> in front of all the authors Bill published at UNO Press, writers and poets
>>> from America, Italy, Japan, Spain, Ecuador, Zimbabwe, Brazil, England,
>>> France, Algeria, Venezuela, in front, too, of posterity, those who will
>>> come after us seeking truth the way we did when we first came to the
>>> university, having faith that it would be found, in front of all those who
>>> will look back at you and know that you held the keys to knowledge, to
>>> truth, in your time, in front, in short, of the whole world, please tell us
>>> why, after fifteen years of service during which Bill Lavender created and
>>> gave to UNO a degree program of national prominence and high profitability,
>>> generating millions of dollars in tuition that would not have been there
>>> otherwise, and built a press of international distinction that is now in
>>> the unheard-of position of being self-supporting, he has been dismissed
>>> with less notice than is normally afforded to a janitor, and four
>>> professors who were hired less than a year ago have been retained.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Anny Ballardini
>>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
>>> star!
>>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>>
>>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>>> Giovenale
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Marthe Reed
Director of Creative Writing
Assistant Professor
English Department
UL Lafayette
337-482-5503
marthereed at gmail.com

http://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/~mxr5675/home.html

http://www.blackradishbooks.org/Reed.html
_____________________________________
*
Poetry is made in a bed like love*
*Its rumpled sheets are the dawn of things*
*Poetry is made in the woods*

--Andre Breton, "On the road to San Romano"
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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Aug  3 18:46:00 2012
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 18:46:00 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] University of New Orleans Press placed on "hiatus"
	and Bill ...
Message-ID: <71d44.f079df.3d4daea7@cs.com>

I can't uncritically applaud anything relating to UNO Press, as all kinds 
of university presses are under attack these days (Missouri's being the most 
recent).  I knew Bill slightly years ago, and I know that he is near 
retirement age.  Don't know if this makes any difference at all, for I'd like to 
see all UPresses and Low Residency Programs go forward, when it's possible, 
given the facts of today's economy.  Louisiana has been hit, under Bobby 
Jindal, worse than most.

But the sad fact is that many UPresses publish books that have no chance of 
selling more than a handful of copies, and many LRP's add a lot of new MFAs 
to a shrinking job pool.  I don't know what the statistics of UNO's 
programs are.  Did any of the books return their printing costs (one report said 
there were over 100 of them under Lavender--how many returned a profit?) and 
did any of their MFAs find teaching jobs in an ever-shrinking market?  
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From marthereed at gmail.com  Fri Aug  3 19:00:44 2012
From: marthereed at gmail.com (Marthe Reed)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 18:00:44 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] University of New Orleans Press placed on "hiatus"
 and Bill ...
In-Reply-To: <71d44.f079df.3d4daea7@cs.com>
References: <71d44.f079df.3d4daea7@cs.com>
Message-ID: <CAJSim+1YHMQaND-4tmKhupuZ3ww6Uh96oCi1UvD1zd_GNwjoyA@mail.gmail.com>

Sales cover the costs of printing, etc. All design is in-house via Bill and
his graduate assistants.  There is a small $10,000 grant from the UNO
Foundation, which is entirely separate from the university, to defray
costs.

This is clearly political, even more so than Jindal's cynical slashing of
education across the board for five years running.  UL Lafayette has cut
all that it can cut and now must hold 120 positions vacant in response to
the news bleed from the state.

Marthe

On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 5:46 PM, <Rsgwynn1 at cs.com> wrote:

> I can't uncritically applaud anything relating to UNO Press, as all kinds
> of university presses are under attack these days (Missouri's being the
> most recent).  I knew Bill slightly years ago, and I know that he is near
> retirement age.  Don't know if this makes any difference at all, for I'd
> like to see all UPresses and Low Residency Programs go forward, when it's
> possible, given the facts of today's economy.  Louisiana has been hit,
> under Bobby Jindal, worse than most.
>
> But the sad fact is that many UPresses publish books that have no chance
> of selling more than a handful of copies, and many LRP's add a lot of new
> MFAs to a shrinking job pool.  I don't know what the statistics of UNO's
> programs are.  Did any of the books return their printing costs (one report
> said there were over 100 of them under Lavender--how many returned a
> profit?) and did any of their MFAs find teaching jobs in an ever-shrinking
> market?
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Marthe Reed
Director of Creative Writing
Assistant Professor
English Department
UL Lafayette
337-482-5503
marthereed at gmail.com

http://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/~mxr5675/home.html

http://www.blackradishbooks.org/Reed.html
_____________________________________
*
Poetry is made in a bed like love*
*Its rumpled sheets are the dawn of things*
*Poetry is made in the woods*

--Andre Breton, "On the road to San Romano"
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From marthereed at gmail.com  Fri Aug  3 19:01:18 2012
From: marthereed at gmail.com (Marthe Reed)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 18:01:18 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] University of New Orleans Press placed on "hiatus"
 and Bill ...
In-Reply-To: <CAJSim+1YHMQaND-4tmKhupuZ3ww6Uh96oCi1UvD1zd_GNwjoyA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <71d44.f079df.3d4daea7@cs.com>
	<CAJSim+1YHMQaND-4tmKhupuZ3ww6Uh96oCi1UvD1zd_GNwjoyA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJSim+33XmALj0kouiD0w5YtaLR3u8inJR3beFZtzNiehRC6Bg@mail.gmail.com>

And he is Mr. Romeny's advisor on education.  Could be great as a VP.

M

On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 6:00 PM, Marthe Reed <marthereed at gmail.com> wrote:

> Sales cover the costs of printing, etc. All design is in-house via Bill
> and his graduate assistants.  There is a small $10,000 grant from the UNO
> Foundation, which is entirely separate from the university, to defray
> costs.
>
> This is clearly political, even more so than Jindal's cynical slashing of
> education across the board for five years running.  UL Lafayette has cut
> all that it can cut and now must hold 120 positions vacant in response to
> the news bleed from the state.
>
> Marthe
>
> On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 5:46 PM, <Rsgwynn1 at cs.com> wrote:
>
>> I can't uncritically applaud anything relating to UNO Press, as all kinds
>> of university presses are under attack these days (Missouri's being the
>> most recent).  I knew Bill slightly years ago, and I know that he is near
>> retirement age.  Don't know if this makes any difference at all, for I'd
>> like to see all UPresses and Low Residency Programs go forward, when it's
>> possible, given the facts of today's economy.  Louisiana has been hit,
>> under Bobby Jindal, worse than most.
>>
>> But the sad fact is that many UPresses publish books that have no chance
>> of selling more than a handful of copies, and many LRP's add a lot of new
>> MFAs to a shrinking job pool.  I don't know what the statistics of UNO's
>> programs are.  Did any of the books return their printing costs (one report
>> said there were over 100 of them under Lavender--how many returned a
>> profit?) and did any of their MFAs find teaching jobs in an ever-shrinking
>> market?
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Marthe Reed
> Director of Creative Writing
> Assistant Professor
> English Department
> UL Lafayette
> 337-482-5503
> marthereed at gmail.com
>
> http://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/~mxr5675/home.html
>
> http://www.blackradishbooks.org/Reed.html
> _____________________________________
> *
> Poetry is made in a bed like love*
> *Its rumpled sheets are the dawn of things*
> *Poetry is made in the woods*
>
> --Andre Breton, "On the road to San Romano"
>
>


-- 
Marthe Reed
Director of Creative Writing
Assistant Professor
English Department
UL Lafayette
337-482-5503
marthereed at gmail.com

http://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/~mxr5675/home.html

http://www.blackradishbooks.org/Reed.html
_____________________________________
*
Poetry is made in a bed like love*
*Its rumpled sheets are the dawn of things*
*Poetry is made in the woods*

--Andre Breton, "On the road to San Romano"
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From jforjames at aol.com  Fri Aug  3 19:20:18 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 19:20:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] an open letter for Bill Lavender
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsySiQ8O=RvbFWwhfRXDZxXMzgu-hryo0gZBzZP6bUZuCew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9UsySVAXuHMDLwq4AZrBzJPOuDnVqT0sH7eePrUD8nB7xwSQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADy9826UcqSgPOX4exK2M7xLwxue-p6pSvDMOWkYEit49=1Riw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9UsySiQ8O=RvbFWwhfRXDZxXMzgu-hryo0gZBzZP6bUZuCew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CF3FE5AE26689E-13FC-8DD4@webmail-d072.sysops.aol.com>


I don't know Bill Lavender, but Anny and Skip think highly of him, so I don't need further recommendation. And it sounds like Bill Lavender has many supporters, friends and former students. I don't know if Bill has the energy for it, but one plan would be to write up a program prospectus and budget, and start a new low-res MFA program thru one of the private universities/colleges based in New Orleans. 


Setting up shop across the street and being successful competing against one's former employers is a great feeling. 

Finnegan


-----Original Message-----
From: Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Fri, Aug 3, 2012 6:25 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] an open letter for Bill Lavender


So so nice to have some humor! Thank you, Skip!



On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 12:23 AM, Skip Fox <fox.skip at gmail.com> wrote:

Lovely to see this. They were very direct, a series of jolts, working in close as they say.



 

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From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com  Fri Aug  3 19:37:19 2012
From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 19:37:19 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] University of New Orleans Press placed on "hiatus"
	and Bill ...
Message-ID: <9586c.2a0bd9c.3d4dbaaf@cs.com>

In a message dated 8/3/2012 6:01:42 PM Central Daylight Time, 
marthereed at gmail.com writes: 
> 
> Sales cover the costs of printing, etc. All design is in-house via Bill 
> and his graduate assistants.  There is a small $10,000 grant from the UNO 
> Foundation, which is entirely separate from the university, to defray costs.   
> 
> 
> This is clearly political, even more so than Jindal's cynical slashing of 
> education across the board for five years running.  UL Lafayette has cut 
> all that it can cut and now must hold 120 positions vacant in response to the 
> news bleed from the state. 
> 
> 
In this climate (which I deplore) you have to see the balance sheets.  What 
you say has nothing to do (unless I'm mistaker) about the LRP.

RSG
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From jforjames at aol.com  Fri Aug  3 20:50:24 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 20:50:24 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] spark and ash
Message-ID: <8CF3FF244696969-173C-36BB1@webmail-m014.sysops.aol.com>


Spark and Ash
 
 
As dusk settled over the beach, a fire was built
behind the dunes, sharp flames rose up 
in a circle of rounded beach stones fortressed
there, and soon there was a small blaze 
to light the faces who had settled, sat around.
Someone playing a few chords on a guitar,
some others singing along the lyrics as far as  
each one?s memory would take them, against
the grand harmony of waves coming ashore.
The tip of the moon, a filet knife testing 
its edge, slipping along those fishbone clouds.
And the sparks flew up from the flames, rising
in air, driven off by the wind, and melting 
in the dark as ash, and it was the way each spark 
spoke for a moment, was the face of someone 
lost, someone we turned away from, or one
of our dead. The way they flared brightest
in the moment they were extinguished, 
disguised again in the dark surround.
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From jforjames at aol.com  Fri Aug  3 21:02:07 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 3 Aug 2012 21:02:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] an open letter for Bill Lavender
In-Reply-To: <8CF3FE5AE26689E-13FC-8DD4@webmail-d072.sysops.aol.com>
References: <CA+9UsySVAXuHMDLwq4AZrBzJPOuDnVqT0sH7eePrUD8nB7xwSQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADy9826UcqSgPOX4exK2M7xLwxue-p6pSvDMOWkYEit49=1Riw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9UsySiQ8O=RvbFWwhfRXDZxXMzgu-hryo0gZBzZP6bUZuCew@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CF3FE5AE26689E-13FC-8DD4@webmail-d072.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8CF3FF3E7490E61-173C-36C40@webmail-m014.sysops.aol.com>

As an extension of this post, sometimes going back is not a good thing. The well is poisoned. Being in close contact with those who dismissed you may become a toxic environment.
No one want to dread showing up at work.
Finnegan


-----Original Message-----
From: jforjames <jforjames at aol.com>
To: new-poetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Fri, Aug 3, 2012 7:20 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] an open letter for Bill Lavender


I don't know Bill Lavender, but Anny and Skip think highly of him, so I don't need further recommendation. And it sounds like Bill Lavender has many supporters, friends and former students. I don't know if Bill has the energy for it, but one plan would be to write up a program prospectus and budget, and start a new low-res MFA program thru one of the private universities/colleges based in New Orleans. 


Setting up shop across the street and being successful competing against one's former employers is a great feeling. 

Finnegan


-----Original Message-----
From: Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Fri, Aug 3, 2012 6:25 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] an open letter for Bill Lavender


So so nice to have some humor! Thank you, Skip!



On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 12:23 AM, Skip Fox <fox.skip at gmail.com> wrote:

Lovely to see this. They were very direct, a series of jolts, working in close as they say.



 

 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

 
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sat Aug  4 07:03:20 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 13:03:20 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] an open letter for Bill Lavender
In-Reply-To: <8CF3FF3E7490E61-173C-36C40@webmail-m014.sysops.aol.com>
References: <CA+9UsySVAXuHMDLwq4AZrBzJPOuDnVqT0sH7eePrUD8nB7xwSQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADy9826UcqSgPOX4exK2M7xLwxue-p6pSvDMOWkYEit49=1Riw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9UsySiQ8O=RvbFWwhfRXDZxXMzgu-hryo0gZBzZP6bUZuCew@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CF3FE5AE26689E-13FC-8DD4@webmail-d072.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CF3FF3E7490E61-173C-36C40@webmail-m014.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyQF8CUaCAu5Cev+LeczfsPUMoVN+3PGxGXxR4ntiKT_UQ@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you James, I forwarded your suggestions to Bill. There is much to
comment here. And personal reactions can be unpredictable. I say this while
trying to understand my own way of dealing with disaster. Unpredictable,
indeed.
One thing is sure, that you become extremely lucid. With my father's death
I had foreseen everything and did whatever I could to change it before it
happened, unsuccessfully.
The situation is similar to my father's, in the sense that I can read
'goodness' in Bill. My father was permeated by it. My father at the end let
himself die, instead of reacting, since he 'anyhow' was old, although this
is _not_ the complete story, as you well know. But there were moment in
which he could have saved his life, and I was there to help him, and he did
not choose.

I think Bill has a similar fundamental emotional attitude. On the other
hand he cannot stand injustice, social injustice. This is Bill's nature.
And it is fighting above itself, it uses the man, and obliges him to comply
with further norms and restrictions to change things. Is he the victim of
this injustice? That has little importance for him.

Was I able to show you how I see the situation as it is?


On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 3:02 AM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:

> As an extension of this post, sometimes going back is not a good thing.
> The well is poisoned. Being in close contact with those who dismissed you
> may become a toxic environment.
> No one want to dread showing up at work.
> Finnegan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jforjames <jforjames at aol.com>
> To: new-poetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Fri, Aug 3, 2012 7:20 pm
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] an open letter for Bill Lavender
>
>  I don't know Bill Lavender, but Anny and Skip think highly of him, so I
> don't need further recommendation. And it sounds like Bill Lavender has
> many supporters, friends and former students. I don't know if Bill has the
> energy for it, but one plan would be to write up a program prospectus and
> budget, and start a new low-res MFA program thru one of the private
> universities/colleges based in New Orleans.
>
>  Setting up shop across the street and being successful competing against
> one's former employers is a great feeling.
> Finnegan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Fri, Aug 3, 2012 6:25 pm
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] an open letter for Bill Lavender
>
>  So so nice to have some humor! Thank you, Skip!
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 12:23 AM, Skip Fox <fox.skip at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Lovely to see this. They were very direct, a series of jolts, working in
>> close as they say.
>>
>>      _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sat Aug  4 07:10:37 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 13:10:37 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] an open letter for Bill Lavender
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsyQF8CUaCAu5Cev+LeczfsPUMoVN+3PGxGXxR4ntiKT_UQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9UsySVAXuHMDLwq4AZrBzJPOuDnVqT0sH7eePrUD8nB7xwSQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADy9826UcqSgPOX4exK2M7xLwxue-p6pSvDMOWkYEit49=1Riw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9UsySiQ8O=RvbFWwhfRXDZxXMzgu-hryo0gZBzZP6bUZuCew@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CF3FE5AE26689E-13FC-8DD4@webmail-d072.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CF3FF3E7490E61-173C-36C40@webmail-m014.sysops.aol.com>
	<CA+9UsyQF8CUaCAu5Cev+LeczfsPUMoVN+3PGxGXxR4ntiKT_UQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyRB4pXXmLKiUoQAKRbUpT-cD0yQOAbGJW1b74hocr_yuw@mail.gmail.com>

The latest :
http://mobile.nola.com/advnola/pm_29230/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=5BZwx6Kp
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sat Aug  4 10:46:41 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 16:46:41 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] spark and ash
In-Reply-To: <8CF3FF244696969-173C-36BB1@webmail-m014.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CF3FF244696969-173C-36BB1@webmail-m014.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyRp6px9pVTu0=xbByTbCZhiRba=02WuX3za4UVXmPdUxQ@mail.gmail.com>

Beautiful poem.

The tip of the moon, a filet knife testing

its edge, slipping along those fishbone clouds.



On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 2:50 AM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:

> Spark and Ash****
> ** **
> ** **
> As dusk settled over the beach, a fire was built****
> behind the dunes, sharp flames rose up ****
> in a circle of rounded beach stones fortressed****
> there, and soon there was a small blaze ****
> to light the faces who had settled, sat around.****
> Someone playing a few chords on a guitar,****
> some others singing along the lyrics as far as  ****
> each one?s memory would take them, against****
> the grand harmony of waves coming ashore.****
> The tip of the moon, a filet knife testing ****
> its edge, slipping along those fishbone clouds.****
> And the sparks flew up from the flames, rising****
> in air, driven off by the wind, and melting ****
> in the dark as ash, and it was the way each spark ****
> spoke for a moment, was the face of someone ****
> lost, someone we turned away from, or one****
> of our dead. The way they flared brightest****
> in the moment they were extinguished, ****
> disguised again in the dark surround.****
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sat Aug  4 10:53:06 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 16:53:06 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] University of New Orleans Press placed on "hiatus"
 and Bill ...
In-Reply-To: <9586c.2a0bd9c.3d4dbaaf@cs.com>
References: <9586c.2a0bd9c.3d4dbaaf@cs.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsySXXmCWkrBZa6nkMjx1n63cbUJ0e-iPC3=OvDUK87Zndg@mail.gmail.com>

Sam Gwynn, this article might illustrate better how UNO Press has been
working and why it was not heading downward, from the Times Picayune, the
opening comment is mine (The entire saddest story):

The entire saddest story:


Visionary director of UNO Press sacked amid budget cuts at the University
of New Orleans
Chris Waddington
Posted: 08/03/2012 6:49 PM


The director of UNO Press, the University of New Orleans? ambitious,
nationally regarded book publishing venture, will lose his job in the
current round of state-mandated budget cuts for public universities in
Louisiana.

Professor Bill Lavender, who also led UNO?s Low Residency MFA and Creative
Writing Program, confirmed on Friday that his position at the press has
been eliminated. Lavender was the sole employee of the press, which he
operated with a staff of four graduate assistants. News of his departure
spread on the internet Thursday as authors and students began a petition
drive in support of the ousted writer. Lavender also lost his position with
the university?s writing program for MFA students who did much of their
work online and met with faculty during brief, intensive residencies.

UNO spokesman Adam Norris declined to comment on changes at the press and
in the MFA program, noting that the school is still formulating its budget
plans and expects to make formal announcements about cuts in the coming
week.

The fate of the publishing venture remains unclear, Lavender said

?I?ve been asked to tell our authors that UNO is evaluating the press to
determine what course of action the school will take with it in the
future,? Lavender said

Lavender transformed the publishing operation during his tenure. When he
took the reins in 2007, it had two out-of-print books in its inventory,
both by UNO faculty. Currently the press has about 80 titles in print. It
specializes in works in translation, including fiction and poetry by some
international figures who first appeared in English through UNO?s program.
Lavender also forged an alliance with the popular Neighborhood Story
Project, published two oral histories about Hurricane Katrina, and
championed books like ?New Orleans: The Underground Guide,? a quirky
eccentric guide for tourists that sold especially well at local festivals.

Lavender attracted big names to the press, including the widely published
New Orleans fiction writer Moira Crone. Crone, who won a prestigious Robert
Penn Warren Award for Fiction, turned to UNO Press to publish her 2012
novel, ?The Not Yet.?

?As an author, I was delighted to work with a publisher that would take a
chance on a book that was way outside my usual kind of writing,? Crone
said. ?Bill encourages innovation in writers.?

Crone also praised the innovative business model that Lavender created at
UNO Press.

?I have never encountered a publisher ? in New York or at other
universities ? that was so agile, so savvy and responsive about publicity,
and so smart about using new technology and short print runs to keep costs
down,? Crone said. ?This wasn?t a place with tons of books sitting around
in boxes. They know how to get books into the hands of readers. The press
is a feather in the cap for New Orleans: a literary addition to the
international profile we already have as a port, a music center and a
culinary hub.?

???????

Chris Waddington can be reached at cwaddington at timespicayune.com or
    504.826.3448       . Follow him at twitter.com/cwaddingtontp.

Chris Waddington (CWaddingtontp) on Twitter
twitter.com
Instantly connect to what's most important to you. Follow your friends,
experts, favorite celebrities, and breaking news.



On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 1:37 AM, <Rsgwynn1 at cs.com> wrote:

> In a message dated 8/3/2012 6:01:42 PM Central Daylight Time,
> marthereed at gmail.com writes:
>
>
> Sales cover the costs of printing, etc. All design is in-house via Bill
> and his graduate assistants.  There is a small $10,000 grant from the UNO
> Foundation, which is entirely separate from the university, to defray
> costs.
>
> This is clearly political, even more so than Jindal's cynical slashing of
> education across the board for five years running.  UL Lafayette has cut
> all that it can cut and now must hold 120 positions vacant in response to
> the news bleed from the state.
>
>
> In this climate (which I deplore) you have to see the balance sheets.
> What you say has nothing to do (unless I'm mistaker) about the LRP.
>
> RSG
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From jforjames at aol.com  Sat Aug  4 11:53:53 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 11:53:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] The The Poetry Blog
Message-ID: <8CF40707B662BA3-171C-3B955@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com>


It's probably not new to some of you, but this group blog is new to me, so I'm passing along the link...


http://www.thethepoetry.com/ 


THEthe Poetry is a blog about poetics, for both poets and non-poets. It takes its name from Wallace Stevens? poem ?The Man on the Dump,? which ends with a question and an answer: ?Where was it one first heard of the truth? The the.? THEthe is a forum for ideas on poetry and the poetic aspects of fiction, non-fiction, music, visual art, film, and ?the things / That are on the dump (azaleas and so on) / And those that will be (azaleas and so on).? Our contributors are writers, readers, artists, critics and so on. Our readers are writers, readers, artists, critics and so on. All are people on the dump, where ?one sits and beats and old tin can, lard pail. / One beats and beats for that which one believes. / That?s what one wants to get near.? We hope that THEthe will help us all get a little closer.



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From jforjames at aol.com  Sat Aug  4 16:43:30 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 16:43:30 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry vs. sports
Message-ID: <8CF4098F1068B95-171C-3E89C@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/42dd1e72-daff-11e1-8074-00144feab49a.html#axzz22c02ShnO


One striking contrast between contemporary approaches to sport and to poetry is that sport has become immensely popular by being shamelessly elitist, while poetry, at least in the public sphere, has languished while it tries for populist appeal. No one asks sportspeople or athletes to do anything other than strive to be the very best; but publically commissioned poets are often expected to be ?accessible?. 


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From junction at earthlink.net  Sat Aug  4 17:14:11 2012
From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 17:14:11 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry vs. sports
Message-ID: <12010441.1344114852058.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From dharmabum7 at gmail.com  Sat Aug  4 22:50:38 2012
From: dharmabum7 at gmail.com (Suzanne Savickas)
Date: Sat, 4 Aug 2012 22:50:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Delirium Chapbook Contest Post
Message-ID: <CALLu22UZcOvJN_ckGnc6Q3ONwJUx5kf4qar6ZGXA==HDm6Dq7A@mail.gmail.com>

Delirium Chapbook Contest

Le Pink-Elephant Press is currently open to the first Delirium Chapbook
Poetry Contest. To be considered, please send a hard copy of original
poetry, between 25-48 pages in length to Le Pink-Elephant Press, 4975
Comanche Trail, Stow, Ohio 44224. Include one copy of the poems without a
title and author and page, and one copy of the manuscript with the title
and author page. Manuscripts should be separated with clips. Poems should
be paginated, with one poem per page. For each submission, we require a
reading fee of $10.00. Please make checks payable to Le Pink-Elephant
Press. Once read, manuscripts will be recycled. We do NOT read simultaneous
submissions. Delirium Chapbook Poetry Contest searches for the innovative
works from both new and experienced authors, who use words to dance across
the page. After all, ?the only war that matters is the war against the
imagination.? Submission deadline is currently rolling. Winner will receive
20 copies of the chapbook.


About the Press

Le Pink Elephant Press was founded in 2003 in Kent, Ohio after the
deconstruction of Hart's Compass. Le Pink Elephant Press' founder and
editor in chief is Suzanne Savickas. The Press primarily publishes poetry
and short-short fiction. Hybrid and Experimental work is encouraged.
Translations will be considered.

Le Pink-Elephant Press also houses A Trunk of Delirium (a literary and arts
journal):

Le Pink-Elephant Press is a press which publishes literary and artistic
works seeking the finest available from both established and as yet known
creators.
Editors: Suzanne Savickas & Cheryl Townsend


MISSION STATEMENT
Le Pink-Elephant Press and A Trunk of Delirium seeks to hold the diverse
expressions of today?s most memorable creators, preserving such evoking
delights for future consumption of the masses. By offering up its
collectives in both web and print spaces, it is intended to make available
more avenues to delight in the pulse of our present, yet ever changing,
artistic scene of delirious exudence. Let creative liberty prevail!
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From jforjames at aol.com  Sun Aug  5 12:22:01 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2012 12:22:01 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry vs. sports
Message-ID: <8CF413D93ED9493-15B0-1FD3E@webmail-d009.sysops.aol.com>


I didn't think much of the article (prompted by the Olympics being in London following the recent Poetry Parnassus events in the same city). The writer seems to be comparing/contrasting entirely different human spheres of endeavor, and is certainly stretching his points past logical snapping.


Of course, we do have lots of poetry contests, both for individual poems and mss. Submitting one's work to magazine (unsolicited) puts a poet in competition with many others for the judgment of the editor(s), however subjective and biased those decisions may be. Even in sports like gymnastics and figure skating, 	with clear technical components that are relatively easy to assess, there is plenty of subjectivity involved in the outcome. (That said, I'm pleased that Gabby Douglas one gymnastics all around by .269 points. But what does measurement to 3 decimal places mean in a sport that is not foot racing?)


This week is the National Poetry Slam...not for poets who are shy or reluctant about being judged on the merits of their performed work. I'm sure there is even a little trash talking going on as the team pass each other in the venues.
Finnegan


-----Original Message-----
From: junction <junction at earthlink.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sat, Aug 4, 2012 5:14 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poetry vs. sports


Well, ok. But both begin with the preschool model, where everyone gets a prize for trying. Maybe the difference is that poetry never leaves that model.

-----Original Message-----
From: jforjames at aol.com
Sent: Aug 4, 2012 4:43 PM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry vs. sports


http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/42dd1e72-daff-11e1-8074-00144feab49a.html#axzz22c02ShnO


One striking contrast between contemporary approaches to sport and to poetry is that sport has become immensely popular by being shamelessly elitist, while poetry, at least in the public sphere, has languished while it tries for populist appeal. No one asks sportspeople or athletes to do anything other than strive to be the very best; but publically commissioned poets are often expected to be ?accessible?. 



 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

 

 
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sun Aug  5 14:49:38 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2012 20:49:38 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Vispo
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyTr1-QFXhvoPGx_UEvOswz1c4zwhSs_oDtKe6=DPNuCRw@mail.gmail.com>

Please consider sending this announcement out to family, friends,
libraries, bookstores.

We are pleased and excited to announce that The Last Vispo Anthology:
Visual Poetry 1998-2008 is being published by Fantagraphics Books and will
arrive in stores near you by early November. You can PRE-ORDER copies now
at
http://www.fantagraphics.com/browse-shop/the-last-vispo-anthology-visual-poetry-1998-2008.html.
Also, there will be an international schedule of launches and exhibits for
The Last Vispo that we will post in the coming months.

our Facebook page - http://www.facebook.com/last.vispo

our website - http://www.thelastvispo.com/


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From jforjames at aol.com  Sun Aug  5 15:31:14 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2012 15:31:14 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Vispo
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsyTr1-QFXhvoPGx_UEvOswz1c4zwhSs_oDtKe6=DPNuCRw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9UsyTr1-QFXhvoPGx_UEvOswz1c4zwhSs_oDtKe6=DPNuCRw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CF41580305BC8E-15B0-222E1@webmail-d009.sysops.aol.com>

Anny, 
you know no one pays attention to vispo these days...it's so pass?.
Bob has already explained it all in posts/text.

Finnegan


-----Original Message-----
From: Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sun, Aug 5, 2012 2:58 pm
Subject: [New-Poetry] Vispo


Please consider sending this announcement out to family, friends, libraries, bookstores.


We are pleased and excited to announce that The Last Vispo Anthology: Visual Poetry 1998-2008 is being published by Fantagraphics Books and will arrive in stores near you by early November. You can PRE-ORDER copies now at http://www.fantagraphics.com/browse-shop/the-last-vispo-anthology-visual-poetry-1998-2008.html. Also, there will be an international schedule of launches and exhibits for The Last Vispo that we will post in the coming months.


our Facebook page - http://www.facebook.com/last.vispo


our website - http://www.thelastvispo.com/




-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale


 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

 

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Aug  5 16:10:42 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2012 16:10:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Vispo
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsyTr1-QFXhvoPGx_UEvOswz1c4zwhSs_oDtKe6=DPNuCRw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9UsyTr1-QFXhvoPGx_UEvOswz1c4zwhSs_oDtKe6=DPNuCRw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <9321701B139E4A52B5035582B0691AB2@BobHP>

I have 3 poems in it, I have 3 poems in it!!!!

--Bob

From: Anny Ballardini 
Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2012 2:49 PM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Vispo

Please consider sending this announcement out to family, friends, libraries, bookstores.

We are pleased and excited to announce that The Last Vispo Anthology: Visual Poetry 1998-2008 is being published by Fantagraphics Books and will arrive in stores near you by early November. You can PRE-ORDER copies now at http://www.fantagraphics.com/browse-shop/the-last-vispo-anthology-visual-poetry-1998-2008.html. Also, there will be an international schedule of launches and exhibits for The Last Vispo that we will post in the coming months.

our Facebook page - http://www.facebook.com/last.vispo

our website - http://www.thelastvispo.com/


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sun Aug  5 16:32:19 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2012 16:32:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Vispo
In-Reply-To: <8CF41580305BC8E-15B0-222E1@webmail-d009.sysops.aol.com>
References: <CA+9UsyTr1-QFXhvoPGx_UEvOswz1c4zwhSs_oDtKe6=DPNuCRw@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CF41580305BC8E-15B0-222E1@webmail-d009.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <A089A7EF9B6F4AAFA9C500C742C6F74C@BobHP>

Actually this is mostly a whole new kind of vispo?asemic?poetry with no words, 
even poetry with no letters or typographical symbols of any kind!  There?s also mathematical 
poetry, a kind less than a dozen people are composed in this country.

--Prof. Bob

From: jforjames at aol.com 
Sent: Sunday, August 05, 2012 3:31 PM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Vispo

Anny,  
you know no one pays attention to vispo these days...it's so pass?. 
Bob has already explained it all in posts/text.

Finnegan


-----Original Message-----
From: Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sun, Aug 5, 2012 2:58 pm
Subject: [New-Poetry] Vispo


Please consider sending this announcement out to family, friends, libraries, bookstores.

We are pleased and excited to announce that The Last Vispo Anthology: Visual Poetry 1998-2008 is being published by Fantagraphics Books and will arrive in stores near you by early November. You can PRE-ORDER copies now at http://www.fantagraphics.com/browse-shop/the-last-vispo-anthology-visual-poetry-1998-2008.html. Also, there will be an international schedule of launches and exhibits for The Last Vispo that we will post in the coming months.

our Facebook page - http://www.facebook.com/last.vispo

our website - http://www.thelastvispo.com/


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From jforjames at aol.com  Sun Aug  5 18:02:52 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 5 Aug 2012 18:02:52 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Possum Agonistes
Message-ID: <8CF416D31A2B058-15B0-22B7C@webmail-d009.sysops.aol.com>


Possum Agonistes
http://www.literaryreview.co.uk/collard_07_12.php


The Letters of T S Eliot, Volume 3: 1926-1927
By Valerie Eliot & John Haffenden (Faber & Faber 954pp ?40)
Eliot at Faber: 'the eyes and back turn upward from the desk'


Spoiler alert. On Good Friday 1927, T S Eliot wrote to his mother: 'If there is one thing more depressing than reading other people's old letters it is reading one's own.'
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Mon Aug  6 03:04:25 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 09:04:25 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Vispo
In-Reply-To: <A089A7EF9B6F4AAFA9C500C742C6F74C@BobHP>
References: <CA+9UsyTr1-QFXhvoPGx_UEvOswz1c4zwhSs_oDtKe6=DPNuCRw@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CF41580305BC8E-15B0-222E1@webmail-d009.sysops.aol.com>
	<A089A7EF9B6F4AAFA9C500C742C6F74C@BobHP>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyQQ_O7M6++0Q7OCg-_ecDJeGYXSih_vqw+wJe0z+AD_pQ@mail.gmail.com>

Ah, James, never wake the whale while sleeping...
We'll have to read billions of words now

sigh_

On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 10:32 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:

>   Actually this is mostly a whole new kind of vispo?asemic?poetry with no
> words,
> even poetry with no letters or typographical symbols of any kind!  There?s
> also mathematical
> poetry, a kind less than a dozen people are composed in this country.
>
> --Prof. Bob
>
>  *From:* jforjames at aol.com
> *Sent:* Sunday, August 05, 2012 3:31 PM
> *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Vispo
>
> Anny,
> you know no one pays attention to vispo these days...it's so pass?.
> Bob has already explained it all in posts/text.
> Finnegan
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views <
> new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Sun, Aug 5, 2012 2:58 pm
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Vispo
>
>  Please consider sending this announcement out to family, friends,
> libraries, bookstores.
>
> We are pleased and excited to announce that The Last Vispo Anthology:
> Visual Poetry 1998-2008 is being published by Fantagraphics Books and will
> arrive in stores near you by early November. You can PRE-ORDER copies now
> at
> http://www.fantagraphics.com/browse-shop/the-last-vispo-anthology-visual-poetry-1998-2008.html.
> Also, there will be an international schedule of launches and exhibits for
> The Last Vispo that we will post in the coming months.
>
> our Facebook page - http://www.facebook.com/last.vispo
>
> our website - http://www.thelastvispo.com/
>
>
> --
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>  ------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
-------------- next part --------------
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Mon Aug  6 03:14:42 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 09:14:42 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] University of New Orleans Press placed on "hiatus"
 and Bill Lavender, its director, fired. Please come and help
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsyTbv7OOMLaYDDyJqemNE3Uxiy73WihDstMkHpmOQt_Ccg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9UsyTbv7OOMLaYDDyJqemNE3Uxiy73WihDstMkHpmOQt_Ccg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyS63OANvb7q8O5z92jMT-vY7AS+7wXenrONedys272VTw@mail.gmail.com>

The petition has recorded over 250 signatures, please consider reading,
signing, commenting and sharing. Take some time to go through the comments,
they are moving.

https://www.change.org/petitions/uno-president-peter-fos-provost-louis-paradise-and-dean-susan-krantz-keep-bill-lavender-as-the-director-of-uno-press-4

also, refer to the following article on the Times Picayune:
http://www.nola.com/books/index.ssf/2012/08/visionary_director_of_uno_pres.html

Pasted here below:

Visionary director of UNO Press sacked amid budget cuts at the University
of New Orleans
Published: Friday, August 03, 2012, 6:49 PM     Updated: Friday, August 03,
2012, 7:14 PM
 By Chris Waddington

The director of UNO Press, the University of New Orleans? ambitious,
nationally regarded book publishing venture, will lose his job in the
current round of state-mandated budget cuts for public universities in
Louisiana.

The Times-Picayune Archive
Bill Lavender, the New Orleans editor who led the UNO Press to national
prominence, has lost his job amid state-mandated budget cuts at the
University of New Orleans.
Professor Bill Lavender, who also led UNO?s Low Residency MFA and Creative
Writing Program, confirmed on Friday that his position at the press has
been eliminated. Lavender was the sole employee of the press, which he
operated with a staff of four graduate assistants. News of his departure
spread on the internet Thursday as authors and students began a petition
drive in support of the ousted writer. Lavender also lost his position with
the university?s writing program for MFA students who did much of their
work online and met with faculty during brief, intensive residencies.
UNO spokesman Adam Norris declined to comment on changes at the press and
in the MFA program, noting that the school is still formulating its budget
plans and expects to make formal announcements about cuts in the coming
week.
The fate of the publishing venture remains unclear, Lavender said
?I?ve been asked to tell our authors that UNO is evaluating the press to
determine what course of action the school will take with it in the
future,? Lavender said
Lavender transformed the publishing operation during his tenure. When he
took the reins in 2007, it had two out-of-print books in its inventory,
both by UNO faculty. Currently the press has about 80 titles in print. It
specializes in works in translation, including fiction and poetry by some
international figures who first appeared in English through UNO?s program.
Lavender also forged an alliance with the popular Neighborhood Story
Project, published two oral histories about Hurricane Katrina, and
championed books like ?New Orleans: The Underground Guide,? a quirky
eccentric guide for tourists that sold especially well at local festivals.
Lavender attracted big names to the press, including the widely published
New Orleans fiction writer Moira Crone. Crone, who won a prestigious Robert
Penn Warren Award for Fiction, turned to UNO Press to publish her 2012
novel, ?The Not Yet.?
?As an author, I was delighted to work with a publisher that would take a
chance on a book that was way outside my usual kind of writing,? Crone
said. ?Bill encourages innovation in writers.?
Crone also praised the innovative business model that Lavender created at
UNO Press.
?I have never encountered a publisher ? in New York or at other
universities ? that was so agile, so savvy and responsive about publicity,
and so smart about using new technology and short print runs to keep costs
down,? Crone said. ?This wasn?t a place with tons of books sitting around
in boxes. They know how to get books into the hands of readers. The press
is a feather in the cap for New Orleans: a literary addition to the
international profile we already have as a port, a music center and a
culinary hub.?
???????
Chris Waddington can be reached at cwaddington at timespicayune.com or
                504.826.3448            . Follow him at
twitter.com/cwaddingtontp.


On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 7:34 PM, Anny Ballardini
<anny.ballardini at gmail.com>wrote:

> *Readers, scholars, and fellow writers,*
>
> The University of New Orleans Press has be put on "hiatus" and its
> motivating editor, Bill Lavender, fired. The presumptive reason was that of
> budget constraints, but in fact the Press was cost free. It also published
> an international range of writers, many of them prize winners or otherwise
> notable. Bill Lavender had, in fact, taken a rather lifeless creature in
> 2007 and enlivened it with over 100 publications, a remarkable achievement.
>
> In support of UNO Press and in support of Bill Lavender and in support of
> fine literature and good reading, please visit UNO Press's site and then
> consider signing a petition indicating your support.
>
> (By the way, UNO Press has a new section on Contemporary Poetry which
> should be of interest to this list.)
>
> UNO Press:
>
> http://www.unopress.org/content2/
>
> Petition site:
>
>
> http://www.change.org/petitions/president-of-the-university-of-new-orleans-louisiana-maintain-bill-lavender-as-the-director-of-uno-s-low-residency-mfa
>
> You may also wish to write personal letters to the President and Provost
> of UNO:
>
> Provost Louis Paradise, lparadis at uno.edu
>
> President Peter Fos, pfos at uno.edu
>
>
> Thank you,
>
>
> Marthe Reed
> Skip Fox
> Anny Ballardini
>
> --
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
-------------- next part --------------
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URL: <http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20120806/3fa7dfef/attachment.html>

From fox.skip at gmail.com  Mon Aug  6 06:38:51 2012
From: fox.skip at gmail.com (Skip Fox)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 05:38:51 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] University of New Orleans Press placed on "hiatus"
 and Bill Lavender, its director, fired. Please come and help
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsyS63OANvb7q8O5z92jMT-vY7AS+7wXenrONedys272VTw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9UsyTbv7OOMLaYDDyJqemNE3Uxiy73WihDstMkHpmOQt_Ccg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9UsyS63OANvb7q8O5z92jMT-vY7AS+7wXenrONedys272VTw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CADy9827DAWQp9EEom_uLkqN_SHfM7m1OErxAZO3x1VtSaM4rpg@mail.gmail.com>

Lovely. Bill deserves every word.

I think *Inside Higher Education* is working on something and Hank Lazar
implies *Chronicle of Higher Education* may be onto this. If so it's gone
national and that can do nothing but good. (The least good? Giving Bill the
exposure he deserves which will aid in future employment as, I hope, an
Editor Supreme for the Gods.)

skip

On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 2:14 AM, Anny Ballardini
<anny.ballardini at gmail.com>wrote:

> The petition has recorded over 250 signatures, please consider reading,
> signing, commenting and sharing. Take some time to go through the comments,
> they are moving.
>
>
> https://www.change.org/petitions/uno-president-peter-fos-provost-louis-paradise-and-dean-susan-krantz-keep-bill-lavender-as-the-director-of-uno-press-4
>
> also, refer to the following article on the Times Picayune:
>
> http://www.nola.com/books/index.ssf/2012/08/visionary_director_of_uno_pres.html
>
> Pasted here below:
>
> Visionary director of UNO Press sacked amid budget cuts at the University
> of New Orleans
> Published: Friday, August 03, 2012, 6:49 PM     Updated: Friday, August
> 03, 2012, 7:14 PM
>  By Chris Waddington
>
> The director of UNO Press, the University of New Orleans? ambitious,
> nationally regarded book publishing venture, will lose his job in the
> current round of state-mandated budget cuts for public universities in
> Louisiana.
>
> The Times-Picayune Archive
> Bill Lavender, the New Orleans editor who led the UNO Press to national
> prominence, has lost his job amid state-mandated budget cuts at the
> University of New Orleans.
> Professor Bill Lavender, who also led UNO?s Low Residency MFA and Creative
> Writing Program, confirmed on Friday that his position at the press has
> been eliminated. Lavender was the sole employee of the press, which he
> operated with a staff of four graduate assistants. News of his departure
> spread on the internet Thursday as authors and students began a petition
> drive in support of the ousted writer. Lavender also lost his position with
> the university?s writing program for MFA students who did much of their
> work online and met with faculty during brief, intensive residencies.
> UNO spokesman Adam Norris declined to comment on changes at the press and
> in the MFA program, noting that the school is still formulating its budget
> plans and expects to make formal announcements about cuts in the coming
> week.
> The fate of the publishing venture remains unclear, Lavender said
> ?I?ve been asked to tell our authors that UNO is evaluating the press to
> determine what course of action the school will take with it in the
> future,? Lavender said
> Lavender transformed the publishing operation during his tenure. When he
> took the reins in 2007, it had two out-of-print books in its inventory,
> both by UNO faculty. Currently the press has about 80 titles in print. It
> specializes in works in translation, including fiction and poetry by some
> international figures who first appeared in English through UNO?s program.
> Lavender also forged an alliance with the popular Neighborhood Story
> Project, published two oral histories about Hurricane Katrina, and
> championed books like ?New Orleans: The Underground Guide,? a quirky
> eccentric guide for tourists that sold especially well at local festivals.
> Lavender attracted big names to the press, including the widely published
> New Orleans fiction writer Moira Crone. Crone, who won a prestigious Robert
> Penn Warren Award for Fiction, turned to UNO Press to publish her 2012
> novel, ?The Not Yet.?
> ?As an author, I was delighted to work with a publisher that would take a
> chance on a book that was way outside my usual kind of writing,? Crone
> said. ?Bill encourages innovation in writers.?
> Crone also praised the innovative business model that Lavender created at
> UNO Press.
> ?I have never encountered a publisher ? in New York or at other
> universities ? that was so agile, so savvy and responsive about publicity,
> and so smart about using new technology and short print runs to keep costs
> down,? Crone said. ?This wasn?t a place with tons of books sitting around
> in boxes. They know how to get books into the hands of readers. The press
> is a feather in the cap for New Orleans: a literary addition to the
> international profile we already have as a port, a music center and a
> culinary hub.?
> ???????
> Chris Waddington can be reached at cwaddington at timespicayune.com or
>                   504.826.3448            . Follow him at
> twitter.com/cwaddingtontp.
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 7:34 PM, Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> *Readers, scholars, and fellow writers,*
>>
>> The University of New Orleans Press has be put on "hiatus" and its
>> motivating editor, Bill Lavender, fired. The presumptive reason was that of
>> budget constraints, but in fact the Press was cost free. It also published
>> an international range of writers, many of them prize winners or otherwise
>> notable. Bill Lavender had, in fact, taken a rather lifeless creature in
>> 2007 and enlivened it with over 100 publications, a remarkable achievement.
>>
>> In support of UNO Press and in support of Bill Lavender and in support of
>> fine literature and good reading, please visit UNO Press's site and then
>> consider signing a petition indicating your support.
>>
>> (By the way, UNO Press has a new section on Contemporary Poetry which
>> should be of interest to this list.)
>>
>> UNO Press:
>>
>> http://www.unopress.org/content2/
>>
>> Petition site:
>>
>>
>> http://www.change.org/petitions/president-of-the-university-of-new-orleans-louisiana-maintain-bill-lavender-as-the-director-of-uno-s-low-residency-mfa
>>
>> You may also wish to write personal letters to the President and Provost
>> of UNO:
>>
>> Provost Louis Paradise, lparadis at uno.edu
>>
>> President Peter Fos, pfos at uno.edu
>>
>>
>> Thank you,
>>
>>
>> Marthe Reed
>> Skip Fox
>> Anny Ballardini
>>
>> --
>> Anny Ballardini
>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
>> star!
>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>
>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>> Giovenale
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Mon Aug  6 08:40:14 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2012 14:40:14 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] University of New Orleans Press placed on "hiatus"
 and Bill Lavender, its director, fired. Please come and help
In-Reply-To: <CADy9827DAWQp9EEom_uLkqN_SHfM7m1OErxAZO3x1VtSaM4rpg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9UsyTbv7OOMLaYDDyJqemNE3Uxiy73WihDstMkHpmOQt_Ccg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9UsyS63OANvb7q8O5z92jMT-vY7AS+7wXenrONedys272VTw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADy9827DAWQp9EEom_uLkqN_SHfM7m1OErxAZO3x1VtSaM4rpg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsySN3JhXE3XtiqH=TPLueBOK1SC-d3s+FQ5epUNYko+xjw@mail.gmail.com>

Thank you Skip, although I think this message was meant for me privately -
dear Skip is _not_ a computer freak, :-).
Anyhow, here is the link to the article, as predicted by Skip:

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/08/06/university-new-orleans-plans-put-university-press-hiatus



On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 12:38 PM, Skip Fox <fox.skip at gmail.com> wrote:

> Lovely. Bill deserves every word.
>
> I think *Inside Higher Education* is working on something and Hank Lazar
> implies *Chronicle of Higher Education* may be onto this. If so it's gone
> national and that can do nothing but good. (The least good? Giving Bill the
> exposure he deserves which will aid in future employment as, I hope, an
> Editor Supreme for the Gods.)
>
> skip
>
> On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 2:14 AM, Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com
> > wrote:
>
>> The petition has recorded over 250 signatures, please consider reading,
>> signing, commenting and sharing. Take some time to go through the comments,
>> they are moving.
>>
>>
>> https://www.change.org/petitions/uno-president-peter-fos-provost-louis-paradise-and-dean-susan-krantz-keep-bill-lavender-as-the-director-of-uno-press-4
>>
>> also, refer to the following article on the Times Picayune:
>>
>> http://www.nola.com/books/index.ssf/2012/08/visionary_director_of_uno_pres.html
>>
>> Pasted here below:
>>
>> Visionary director of UNO Press sacked amid budget cuts at the University
>> of New Orleans
>> Published: Friday, August 03, 2012, 6:49 PM     Updated: Friday, August
>> 03, 2012, 7:14 PM
>>  By Chris Waddington
>>
>> The director of UNO Press, the University of New Orleans? ambitious,
>> nationally regarded book publishing venture, will lose his job in the
>> current round of state-mandated budget cuts for public universities in
>> Louisiana.
>>
>> The Times-Picayune Archive
>> Bill Lavender, the New Orleans editor who led the UNO Press to national
>> prominence, has lost his job amid state-mandated budget cuts at the
>> University of New Orleans.
>> Professor Bill Lavender, who also led UNO?s Low Residency MFA and
>> Creative Writing Program, confirmed on Friday that his position at the
>> press has been eliminated. Lavender was the sole employee of the press,
>> which he operated with a staff of four graduate assistants. News of his
>> departure spread on the internet Thursday as authors and students began a
>> petition drive in support of the ousted writer. Lavender also lost his
>> position with the university?s writing program for MFA students who did
>> much of their work online and met with faculty during brief, intensive
>> residencies.
>> UNO spokesman Adam Norris declined to comment on changes at the press and
>> in the MFA program, noting that the school is still formulating its budget
>> plans and expects to make formal announcements about cuts in the coming
>> week.
>> The fate of the publishing venture remains unclear, Lavender said
>> ?I?ve been asked to tell our authors that UNO is evaluating the press to
>> determine what course of action the school will take with it in the
>> future,? Lavender said
>> Lavender transformed the publishing operation during his tenure. When he
>> took the reins in 2007, it had two out-of-print books in its inventory,
>> both by UNO faculty. Currently the press has about 80 titles in print. It
>> specializes in works in translation, including fiction and poetry by some
>> international figures who first appeared in English through UNO?s program.
>> Lavender also forged an alliance with the popular Neighborhood Story
>> Project, published two oral histories about Hurricane Katrina, and
>> championed books like ?New Orleans: The Underground Guide,? a quirky
>> eccentric guide for tourists that sold especially well at local festivals.
>> Lavender attracted big names to the press, including the widely published
>> New Orleans fiction writer Moira Crone. Crone, who won a prestigious Robert
>> Penn Warren Award for Fiction, turned to UNO Press to publish her 2012
>> novel, ?The Not Yet.?
>> ?As an author, I was delighted to work with a publisher that would take a
>> chance on a book that was way outside my usual kind of writing,? Crone
>> said. ?Bill encourages innovation in writers.?
>> Crone also praised the innovative business model that Lavender created at
>> UNO Press.
>> ?I have never encountered a publisher ? in New York or at other
>> universities ? that was so agile, so savvy and responsive about publicity,
>> and so smart about using new technology and short print runs to keep costs
>> down,? Crone said. ?This wasn?t a place with tons of books sitting around
>> in boxes. They know how to get books into the hands of readers. The press
>> is a feather in the cap for New Orleans: a literary addition to the
>> international profile we already have as a port, a music center and a
>> culinary hub.?
>> ???????
>> Chris Waddington can be reached at cwaddington at timespicayune.com or
>>                     504.826.3448            . Follow him at
>> twitter.com/cwaddingtontp.
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 7:34 PM, Anny Ballardini <
>> anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> *Readers, scholars, and fellow writers,*
>>>
>>> The University of New Orleans Press has be put on "hiatus" and its
>>> motivating editor, Bill Lavender, fired. The presumptive reason was that of
>>> budget constraints, but in fact the Press was cost free. It also published
>>> an international range of writers, many of them prize winners or otherwise
>>> notable. Bill Lavender had, in fact, taken a rather lifeless creature in
>>> 2007 and enlivened it with over 100 publications, a remarkable achievement.
>>>
>>> In support of UNO Press and in support of Bill Lavender and in support
>>> of fine literature and good reading, please visit UNO Press's site and then
>>> consider signing a petition indicating your support.
>>>
>>> (By the way, UNO Press has a new section on Contemporary Poetry which
>>> should be of interest to this list.)
>>>
>>> UNO Press:
>>>
>>> http://www.unopress.org/content2/
>>>
>>> Petition site:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.change.org/petitions/president-of-the-university-of-new-orleans-louisiana-maintain-bill-lavender-as-the-director-of-uno-s-low-residency-mfa
>>>
>>> You may also wish to write personal letters to the President and Provost
>>> of UNO:
>>>
>>> Provost Louis Paradise, lparadis at uno.edu
>>>
>>> President Peter Fos, pfos at uno.edu
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you,
>>>
>>>
>>> Marthe Reed
>>> Skip Fox
>>> Anny Ballardini
>>>
>>> --
>>> Anny Ballardini
>>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
>>> star!
>>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>>
>>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>>> Giovenale
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Anny Ballardini
>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
>> star!
>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>
>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>> Giovenale
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Tue Aug  7 06:18:45 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2012 12:18:45 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] University of New Orleans Press placed on "hiatus"
 and Bill Lavender, its director, fired. Please come and help
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsySN3JhXE3XtiqH=TPLueBOK1SC-d3s+FQ5epUNYko+xjw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9UsyTbv7OOMLaYDDyJqemNE3Uxiy73WihDstMkHpmOQt_Ccg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9UsyS63OANvb7q8O5z92jMT-vY7AS+7wXenrONedys272VTw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADy9827DAWQp9EEom_uLkqN_SHfM7m1OErxAZO3x1VtSaM4rpg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9UsySN3JhXE3XtiqH=TPLueBOK1SC-d3s+FQ5epUNYko+xjw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyQL1tnXGWyHHuvABerKGva6-+3nOteMU=pBD0teaawxew@mail.gmail.com>

Marthe Reed's excellent comment on the petition's site (under: Petition
Updates):
[As of now, the petition has reached 346 signatures.]

https://www.change.org/petitions/uno-president-peter-fos-provost-louis-paradise-and-dean-susan-krantz-keep-bill-lavender-as-the-director-of-uno-press-4

Press will continue, but what of Bill?


Okay, the press is not being shuttered. That is good to hear. And what of
Bill and his 15 years of service building both the low-residency MFA and
rebuilding the press? Indeed, if the university has such crushing budgetary
issues, why the new notice on the UNO website seeking to hire a new
assistant professor in Creative Writing with just ONE week notice before
the opening closes? This job posting suggests something underhanded, at
best.: someone's student? someone's lover? The UNO administration needs to
come forward and explain exactly why they MUST fire Bill but can afford a
new Assistant Professor, and why they are in such a dead rush to do ii?


Please keep the pressure on! The UNO administration needs to come clean
about the budget cuts and their ability to hire a new faculty member in
Bill's department.


Posted By Marthe Reed Petition Organizer

August 07, 2012



On Mon, Aug 6, 2012 at 2:40 PM, Anny Ballardini
<anny.ballardini at gmail.com>wrote:

> Thank you Skip, although I think this message was meant for me privately -
> dear Skip is _not_ a computer freak, :-).
> Anyhow, here is the link to the article, as predicted by Skip:
>
>
> http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/08/06/university-new-orleans-plans-put-university-press-hiatus
>
>
>
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Wed Aug  8 14:17:26 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 20:17:26 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Harriet:
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyTQJcaLYzB9J6RnUF3irdb2LLmJHOzisonn9PtcGZQ13A@mail.gmail.com>

on Bill Lavender and UNO Press:
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2012/08/university-of-new-orleans-press-on-hiatus/


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Wed Aug  8 15:30:49 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 21:30:49 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] University of New Orleans Press placed on "hiatus"
 and Bill Lavender, its director, fired. Please come and help
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsyQL1tnXGWyHHuvABerKGva6-+3nOteMU=pBD0teaawxew@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9UsyTbv7OOMLaYDDyJqemNE3Uxiy73WihDstMkHpmOQt_Ccg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9UsyS63OANvb7q8O5z92jMT-vY7AS+7wXenrONedys272VTw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CADy9827DAWQp9EEom_uLkqN_SHfM7m1OErxAZO3x1VtSaM4rpg@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9UsySN3JhXE3XtiqH=TPLueBOK1SC-d3s+FQ5epUNYko+xjw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CA+9UsyQL1tnXGWyHHuvABerKGva6-+3nOteMU=pBD0teaawxew@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyQvW9EioObeLSJK=ZFyqnGjzhcNVROCVrKEjfhfgyz4XA@mail.gmail.com>

Here's another one:
http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/industry-news/publisher-news/article/53474-with-director-s-ouster-uno-press-faces-uncertain-future-.html
-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From jforjames at aol.com  Wed Aug  8 21:56:34 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 8 Aug 2012 21:56:34 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Madness, Rack, and Honey
Message-ID: <8CF43E956CF319B-85C-6AC5F@Webmail-m118.sysops.aol.com>

Madness, Rack, and Honey
http://www.wavepoetry.com/collections/authors/products/madness-rack-and-honey 

By Mary Ruefle

Release Date: August 7, 2012

ISBN# 9781933517575 

Over the course of 15 years, award-winning poet Mary Ruefle delivered a lecture every six months to a group of poetry graduate students. Collected here for the first time, these lectures articulate the wisdom accrued through a life dedicated entirely to poetry. Intellectually virtuosic, instructive and experiential, Madness, Rack, and Honey resists definition, demanding instead an utter?and utterly pleasurable?immersion.




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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Thu Aug  9 02:18:06 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 08:18:06 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] the 10 top most difficult books
Message-ID: <CA+9UsySaFYN3DaHy-AwPZ4-gtWBt63DiK4Y24eh0bL9OP7LJvQ@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/book-news/tip-sheet/article/53409-the-top-10-most-difficult-books.html

really? Clarissa?
To the lighthouse?


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From jforjames at aol.com  Thu Aug  9 09:43:21 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 09:43:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Madness, Rack, and Honey
In-Reply-To: <8CF43E956CF319B-85C-6AC5F@Webmail-m118.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CF43E956CF319B-85C-6AC5F@Webmail-m118.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8CF444C13650C49-16D0-4AC57@webmail-d043.sysops.aol.com>

I heard Mark Doty read last night at the Sunken Garden Poetry Series. I've heard Doty on several occasions and he never disappoints me. 


I notice on his blog he quotes a paragraph from the Mary Ruefle book...
http://markdoty.blogspot.com/2012/07/brilliant-statement-about-poetics-from.html 

Finnegan

-----Original Message-----
From: jforjames <jforjames at aol.com>
To: new-poetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wed, Aug 8, 2012 9:56 pm
Subject: [New-Poetry] Madness, Rack, and Honey


Madness, Rack, and Honey
http://www.wavepoetry.com/collections/authors/products/madness-rack-and-honey 

By Mary Ruefle

Release Date: August 7, 2012

ISBN# 9781933517575 

Over the course of 15 years, award-winning poet Mary Ruefle delivered a lecture every six months to a group of poetry graduate students. Collected here for the first time, these lectures articulate the wisdom accrued through a life dedicated entirely to poetry. Intellectually virtuosic, instructive and experiential, Madness, Rack, and Honey resists definition, demanding instead an utter?and utterly pleasurable?immersion.





 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

 
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Thu Aug  9 14:40:09 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 11:40:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] the 10 top most difficult books
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsySaFYN3DaHy-AwPZ4-gtWBt63DiK4Y24eh0bL9OP7LJvQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9UsySaFYN3DaHy-AwPZ4-gtWBt63DiK4Y24eh0bL9OP7LJvQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1344537609.73612.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

The most difficult, most?punishing book of all time --
?
The Bible. 


________________________________
From: Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2012 2:18 AM
Subject: [New-Poetry] the 10 top most difficult books


http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/book-news/tip-sheet/article/53409-the-top-10-most-difficult-books.html 

really? Clarissa?
To the lighthouse??


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com  Thu Aug  9 16:05:36 2012
From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 13:05:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] the 10 top most difficult books
In-Reply-To: <1344537609.73612.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <CA+9UsySaFYN3DaHy-AwPZ4-gtWBt63DiK4Y24eh0bL9OP7LJvQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<1344537609.73612.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1344542736.19253.YahooMailNeo@web126104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Especially the Books of Chronicles. I always lose my place and then have to start again.

-- JohnJ




>________________________________
> From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
>To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
>Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2012 2:40 PM
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the 10 top most difficult books
> 
>
>The most difficult, most?punishing book of all time --
>?
>The Bible. 
>
>
>
>
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From tink at well.com  Thu Aug  9 19:16:22 2012
From: tink at well.com (Tinker Greene)
Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 16:16:22 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] the 10 top most difficult books
References: <CA+9UsySaFYN3DaHy-AwPZ4-gtWBt63DiK4Y24eh0bL9OP7LJvQ@mail.gmail.com><1344537609.73612.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<1344542736.19253.YahooMailNeo@web126104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B231267E2B5F41B4B6131874B075A550@ganesha>

the book of mormon, which is apparently an ponderous imitation of the king james bible that only imitates the boring aspects of it, would be even worse
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: John Jeffrey 
  To: NewPoetry List 
  Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 1:05 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the 10 top most difficult books


  Especially the Books of Chronicles. I always lose my place and then have to start again.


  -- JohnJ




----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
    To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
    Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2012 2:40 PM
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the 10 top most difficult books



    The most difficult, most punishing book of all time --

    The Bible. 








------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From jschickl at hotmail.com  Fri Aug 10 12:03:04 2012
From: jschickl at hotmail.com (Jared Schickling)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 10:03:04 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] UNO
In-Reply-To: <mailman.7.1344614415.15293.new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
References: <mailman.7.1344614415.15293.new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <SNT131-W127CCD7D9153F10C8599E0D0B30@phx.gbl>


perhaps the *extreme* funding cuts to UNO and its dismissal of avant 
writer and editor Bill Lavender are part of a larger coup in Louisiana:

http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2012/07/photos-evangelical-curricula-louisiana-tax-dollars

jared

: eccolinguistics :
: delete press :
: reconfigurations :



 		 	   		  
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From editor at pavementsaw.org  Fri Aug 10 12:04:00 2012
From: editor at pavementsaw.org (David Baratier)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 09:04:00 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Final call, PSP Transcontinental Award,
	deadline Wednesday 8/15
In-Reply-To: <mailman.7.1344614415.15293.new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Message-ID: <1344614640.89158.YahooMailClassic@web45610.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>

------------

We are now wrapping up reading for our yearly poetry book contest for 1st or 2nd books.

Deadline: have the manuscript postmarked by Wednesday 8/15/2012
or have payment made via paypal by that date.

Here are the full guides--
-- Pavement Saw Press Transcontinental Award 2012 Submission Guidelines ----

You can submit directly to the website at:
http://www.pavementsaw.org/pages/transaward.htm


--This award is for first or second full length books--

All contributors receive books, chapbooks and journals equal to, or more than, the entry fee.
Please mention this to your friends and all others who might be interested!

Electronic and mailed entries must meet these requirements:
1. The manuscript should be at least 48 pages of poetry and no more than 70 pages of poetry in length. Separations between sections are NOT a part of the page count.
2. A one page cover letter. Include a brief biography, the book's title, your name, address, and telephone number, and, if you have e-mail, your e-mail address. This should be followed by a page which lists publication acknowledgments for the book. For each acknowledgement mention the publisher (journal, anthology, chapbook etc.) and the poem published.
3. The manuscript should be bound with a single clip and begin with a title page including the book's title, your name, address, and telephone number, and, if you have e-mail, your e-mail address.
4. The second page should have only the title of the manuscript. There are to be no acknowledgments or mention of the author's name from this page forward. Submissions to the contest are blind judged.
5. There should be no more than one poem on each page. The manuscript can contain pieces longer than one page.
6. The manuscript should be paginated, beginning with the first page of poetry.

Each year Pavement Saw Press will publish at least one book of poetry and/or prose poems from manuscripts received during this competition. Selections are chosen through a blind judging process. The competition is open to anyone who has not previously published one, or more than one, volume of poetry or prose poetry. The author receives $1000 and five percent of the 1000 copy press run. Previous judges have included Judith Vollmer, David Bromige, Bin Ramke and Howard McCord. This year David Baratier will be the judge; past students, Pavement Saw Press interns and employees are not allowed to submit. All poems must be original, all prose must be original, fiction or translations are not acceptable. All writers without a full length book or those who have published only one full length book are eligible. Writers who have had a second volume of poetry and/or prose poetry under 40 pages printed or printed in limited editions of no more than 500 copies are
 also eligible. Submissions are accepted during the months of June, July, and until August 15th. All submissions must have a Monday, August 15th, 2012, or earlier, postmark. This is an award for first or second books only.

If you wish to send via regular mail your manuscript should be accompanied by a check in the amount of $20.00 made payable to Pavement Saw Press. All US contributors to the contest will receive books, chapbooks and journals equal to, or more than, the entry fee. Add $3 (US) for other countries to cover the extra postal charge. Do not include an SASE for notification of results, this information will be sent with the free book. Do not send the only copy of your work. All manuscripts are recycled and individual comments on the manuscripts cannot be made. Entry Fee: $20 for mailed US and Canadian entries, $23 for mailed overseas entries, $27 to submit electronically (all entries, world wide).

If you wish to submit electronically, you should send $27.00 via paypal to info(AT)pavementsaw.org. Then e-mail the manuscript to info(AT)pavementsaw.org. Electronic submissions need to be sent as PDF files or as word (.doc, .docx) files. Other formats are not accepted. The extra cost is to cover the paypal fees as well as the time, labor, ink, and so on, to print out your manuscript. In addition to the prize winner, sometimes another anonymous manuscript is chosen, if enough entries arrive. This ?editors choice? manuscript will be published under a standard royalty contract. A decision will be reached in December or January. Entries should be sent to:

Entries should be sent to:

Pavement Saw Press
Transcontinental Award Entry
321 Empire Street
Montpelier, OH 43543

All submissions must have an August 15th, 2012, or earlier, postmark. Submissions are accepted during the months of June, July, and August only.
If you have questions, please ask us: info(at)pavementsaw.org


Previous Winners

Sarah Mangold: Electric Theories of Femininity
Troy Bigelow: Resuscitivity
Shannon Hamann: Death Doubledactyl
Stan Mir: The Lacustrine Suite
Justin Vicari: The Professional Weepers
Jason Irwin: Watering the Dead
Rachel M. Simon: Theory of Orange
Kaya Oakes: Telegraph
Steve Davenport: Uncontainable Noise
Garin Cycholl: Blue Mound to 161
Rodney Koeneke: Rouge State
Christopher Arigo: Lit interim
Sophia Starnes: A commerce of Moments
Daniel Zimmerman: Post Avant
Jeffrey Levine: Mortal, Everlasting
Dana Curtis: The Body's Response to Famine


Be well

David Baratier, Editor

Pavement Saw Press
321 Empire Street
Montpelier OH 43543
http://pavementsaw.org

Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at
http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1

Facebook Page
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=25857379734&ref=ts
Be well

David Baratier, Editor

Pavement Saw Press
321 Empire Street
Montpelier OH 43543
http://pavementsaw.org

Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at
http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1

Facebook Page
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=25857379734&ref=ts


--- On Fri, 8/10/12, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu <new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu> wrote:

> From: new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu <new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 25, Issue 10
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Date: Friday, August 10, 2012, 4:00 PM
> Send New-Poetry mailing list
> submissions to
> ??? new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> ??? http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help'
> to
> ??? new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> ??? new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more
> specific
> than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..."
> 
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
> ???1. Re: the 10 top most difficult books
> (stephen russell)
> ???2. Re: the 10 top most difficult books
> (John Jeffrey)
> ???3. Re: the 10 top most difficult books
> (Tinker Greene)
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 11:40:09 -0700 (PDT)
> From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the 10 top most difficult books
> Message-ID:
> ??? <1344537609.73612.YahooMailNeo at web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> The most difficult, most?punishing book of all time --
> ?
> The Bible. 
> 
> 
> ________________________________
> From: Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp, Views"
> <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> 
> Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2012 2:18 AM
> Subject: [New-Poetry] the 10 top most difficult books
> 
> 
> http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-topic/book-news/tip-sheet/article/53409-the-top-10-most-difficult-books.html
> 
> 
> really? Clarissa?
> To the lighthouse??
> 
> 
> -- 
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth
> to a dancing star! 
> Friedrich Nietzsche
> 
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 2
> Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 13:05:36 -0700 (PDT)
> From: John Jeffrey <jjeffreymail at yahoo.com>
> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the 10 top most difficult books
> Message-ID:
> ??? <1344542736.19253.YahooMailNeo at web126104.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> Especially the Books of Chronicles. I always lose my place
> and then have to start again.
> 
> -- JohnJ
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >________________________________
> > From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
> >To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> 
> >Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2012 2:40 PM
> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the 10 top most difficult
> books
> > 
> >
> >The most difficult, most?punishing book of all time --
> >?
> >The Bible. 
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> Message: 3
> Date: Thu, 9 Aug 2012 16:16:22 -0700
> From: "Tinker Greene" <tink at well.com>
> To: "NewPoetry List" <new-poetry at charlemagne.cddc.vt.edu>
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the 10 top most difficult books
> Message-ID:
> <B231267E2B5F41B4B6131874B075A550 at ganesha>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> 
> the book of mormon, which is apparently an ponderous
> imitation of the king james bible that only imitates the
> boring aspects of it, would be even worse
> ? ----- Original Message ----- 
> ? From: John Jeffrey 
> ? To: NewPoetry List 
> ? Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 1:05 PM
> ? Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the 10 top most difficult
> books
> 
> 
> ? Especially the Books of Chronicles. I always lose my
> place and then have to start again.
> 
> 
> ? -- JohnJ
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ? ? From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
> ? ? To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> 
> ? ? Sent: Thursday, August 9, 2012 2:40 PM
> ? ? Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the 10 top most
> difficult books
> 
> 
> 
> ? ? The most difficult, most punishing book of all
> time --
> 
> ? ? The Bible. 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> 
> 
> ? _______________________________________________
> ? New-Poetry mailing list
> ? New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> ? http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> -------------- next part --------------
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> 
> ------------------------------
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 25, Issue 10
> ******************************************
> 


From ahadada at gol.com  Fri Aug 10 13:01:41 2012
From: ahadada at gol.com (ahadada at gol.com)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 17:01:41 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] Most difficult--but most enjoyable
Message-ID: <yLLqHTrc.1344618101.5252740.ahadada@gol.com>

Finnegans Wake--love it!
The Making of Americans--Gertrude Stein is very difficult but very fine.




From marthereed at gmail.com  Fri Aug 10 13:04:30 2012
From: marthereed at gmail.com (Marthe Reed)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 12:04:30 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] UNO
In-Reply-To: <SNT131-W127CCD7D9153F10C8599E0D0B30@phx.gbl>
References: <mailman.7.1344614415.15293.new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<SNT131-W127CCD7D9153F10C8599E0D0B30@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <CAJSim+2FqQm19F9dxWY07zHg7dwsw8mdsDHb3zm-xeYosoDCPw@mail.gmail.com>

Under Mr. Jindal the Stelly Tax, a tax on the middle and upper income
brackets through which higher education was funded was repealed. "The
Public Affairs Research Council, a business
think-tank<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think-tank>,
said that the loss of income tax revenues would make Louisiana more reliant
on less stable petroleum <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum> and natural
gas <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_gas> revenues and creates the
potential for a resumption of the "boom-and-bust cycle". (Wikipedia).

Great ideas come from great minds, that is from those who feel they pay too
much in tax. Look at the mess Proposition 13 has made of life in
California.  Even Jindal was against repealing the Stelly Tax until the
pressure from the disgruntled affluent in Louisiana changed his mind for
him.

Marthe

On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 11:03 AM, Jared Schickling <jschickl at hotmail.com>wrote:

>  perhaps the *extreme* funding cuts to UNO and its dismissal of avant
> writer and editor Bill Lavender are part of a larger coup in Louisiana:
>
>
> http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2012/07/photos-evangelical-curricula-louisiana-tax-dollars
>
> jared
>
> : *eccolinguistics <http://eccolinguistics.blogspot.com/>* :
> : *delete press <http://deletepress.org/>* :
> : *reconfigurations <http://reconfigurations.blogspot.com/>* :
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Marthe Reed
Director of Creative Writing
Assistant Professor
English Department
UL Lafayette
337-482-5503
marthereed at gmail.com

http://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/~mxr5675/home.html

http://www.blackradishbooks.org/Reed.html
_____________________________________
*
Poetry is made in a bed like love*
*Its rumpled sheets are the dawn of things*
*Poetry is made in the woods*

--Andre Breton, "On the road to San Romano"
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From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com  Fri Aug 10 13:17:34 2012
From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 13:17:34 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] UNO
In-Reply-To: <CAJSim+2FqQm19F9dxWY07zHg7dwsw8mdsDHb3zm-xeYosoDCPw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.7.1344614415.15293.new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<SNT131-W127CCD7D9153F10C8599E0D0B30@phx.gbl>
	<CAJSim+2FqQm19F9dxWY07zHg7dwsw8mdsDHb3zm-xeYosoDCPw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAFq5sq9f=jt11kHauZT2q8UptSbBBB8axV-X2yeUHnmB5dLMvw@mail.gmail.com>

don't get me started on Prop. 13, the "voter measure" that brought RR
to prominence

Catherine


From marthereed at gmail.com  Fri Aug 10 13:39:45 2012
From: marthereed at gmail.com (Marthe Reed)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 12:39:45 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] UNO
In-Reply-To: <CAFq5sq9f=jt11kHauZT2q8UptSbBBB8axV-X2yeUHnmB5dLMvw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <mailman.7.1344614415.15293.new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<SNT131-W127CCD7D9153F10C8599E0D0B30@phx.gbl>
	<CAJSim+2FqQm19F9dxWY07zHg7dwsw8mdsDHb3zm-xeYosoDCPw@mail.gmail.com>
	<CAFq5sq9f=jt11kHauZT2q8UptSbBBB8axV-X2yeUHnmB5dLMvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CAJSim+0fx5ez3mPsg3H8PLiHvzhQxY_aUXi2JJOvATBbvQ=M9Q@mail.gmail.com>

I had a local Louisiana recently explain the mind-set here: he feels that
ever since Huey Long, no one in Louisiana feels that they should have to
pay for government services.  They should come gratis via oil and gas
revenues.  Though that does not explain the endless freebies we hand out to
corporations to bring jobs the state.  Highly polluting, environmentally
destructive jobs.

As to RR, he was the perfect candidate: pretty, folksy, just your average
guy with good conservative ideas.  Though he raised taxes.  Tea Partiers
would be horrified by him now.

M


-- 
Marthe Reed
Director of Creative Writing
Assistant Professor
English Department
UL Lafayette
337-482-5503
marthereed at gmail.com

http://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/~mxr5675/home.html

http://www.blackradishbooks.org/Reed.html
_____________________________________
*
Poetry is made in a bed like love*
*Its rumpled sheets are the dawn of things*
*Poetry is made in the woods*

--Andre Breton, "On the road to San Romano"
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 10 15:13:38 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 12:13:38 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Most difficult--but most enjoyable
In-Reply-To: <yLLqHTrc.1344618101.5252740.ahadada@gol.com>
References: <yLLqHTrc.1344618101.5252740.ahadada@gol.com>
Message-ID: <1344626018.44434.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Umberto gives me a headache.
?
?


________________________________
From: "ahadada at gol.com" <ahadada at gol.com>
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 1:01 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Most difficult--but most enjoyable

Finnegans Wake--love it!
The Making of Americans--Gertrude Stein is very difficult but very fine.


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From jforjames at aol.com  Fri Aug 10 19:54:44 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 10 Aug 2012 19:54:44 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Most difficult--but most enjoyable
In-Reply-To: <1344626018.44434.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <yLLqHTrc.1344618101.5252740.ahadada@gol.com>
	<1344626018.44434.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8CF456AA63014DC-2130-21416@Webmail-d114.sysops.aol.com>

Herman Broch's "The Death of Virgil"
A 500 page prose poem; difficult but beautiful.


-----Original Message-----
From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Fri, Aug 10, 2012 3:17 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Most difficult--but most enjoyable



Umberto gives me a headache.
 

 




From: "ahadada at gol.com" <ahadada at gol.com>
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2012 1:01 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Most difficult--but most enjoyable


Finnegans Wake--love it!
The Making of Americans--Gertrude Stein is very difficult but very fine.


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

 
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sat Aug 11 18:24:59 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 00:24:59 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Final call, PSP Transcontinental Award,
 deadline Wednesday 8/15
In-Reply-To: <1344614640.89158.YahooMailClassic@web45610.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.7.1344614415.15293.new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<1344614640.89158.YahooMailClassic@web45610.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyTpZzyxADftO+d_0B2tD_DE_LYGC_fYMW1UL36PdcK9VA@mail.gmail.com>

Do you have any news of Daniel Zimmerman?
One of your previous winners.

If you do, please share.


On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 6:04 PM, David Baratier <editor at pavementsaw.org>wrote:

> ------------
>
> We are now wrapping up reading for our yearly poetry book contest for 1st
> or 2nd books.
>
> Deadline: have the manuscript postmarked by Wednesday 8/15/2012
> or have payment made via paypal by that date.
>
> Here are the full guides--
> -- Pavement Saw Press Transcontinental Award 2012 Submission Guidelines
> ----
>
> You can submit directly to the website at:
> http://www.pavementsaw.org/pages/transaward.htm
>
>
> --This award is for first or second full length books--
>
> All contributors receive books, chapbooks and journals equal to, or more
> than, the entry fee.
> Please mention this to your friends and all others who might be interested!
>
> Electronic and mailed entries must meet these requirements:
> 1. The manuscript should be at least 48 pages of poetry and no more than
> 70 pages of poetry in length. Separations between sections are NOT a part
> of the page count.
> 2. A one page cover letter. Include a brief biography, the book's title,
> your name, address, and telephone number, and, if you have e-mail, your
> e-mail address. This should be followed by a page which lists publication
> acknowledgments for the book. For each acknowledgement mention the
> publisher (journal, anthology, chapbook etc.) and the poem published.
> 3. The manuscript should be bound with a single clip and begin with a
> title page including the book's title, your name, address, and telephone
> number, and, if you have e-mail, your e-mail address.
> 4. The second page should have only the title of the manuscript. There are
> to be no acknowledgments or mention of the author's name from this page
> forward. Submissions to the contest are blind judged.
> 5. There should be no more than one poem on each page. The manuscript can
> contain pieces longer than one page.
> 6. The manuscript should be paginated, beginning with the first page of
> poetry.
>
> Each year Pavement Saw Press will publish at least one book of poetry
> and/or prose poems from manuscripts received during this competition.
> Selections are chosen through a blind judging process. The competition is
> open to anyone who has not previously published one, or more than one,
> volume of poetry or prose poetry. The author receives $1000 and five
> percent of the 1000 copy press run. Previous judges have included Judith
> Vollmer, David Bromige, Bin Ramke and Howard McCord. This year David
> Baratier will be the judge; past students, Pavement Saw Press interns and
> employees are not allowed to submit. All poems must be original, all prose
> must be original, fiction or translations are not acceptable. All writers
> without a full length book or those who have published only one full length
> book are eligible. Writers who have had a second volume of poetry and/or
> prose poetry under 40 pages printed or printed in limited editions of no
> more than 500 copies are
>  also eligible. Submissions are accepted during the months of June, July,
> and until August 15th. All submissions must have a Monday, August 15th,
> 2012, or earlier, postmark. This is an award for first or second books only.
>
> If you wish to send via regular mail your manuscript should be accompanied
> by a check in the amount of $20.00 made payable to Pavement Saw Press. All
> US contributors to the contest will receive books, chapbooks and journals
> equal to, or more than, the entry fee. Add $3 (US) for other countries to
> cover the extra postal charge. Do not include an SASE for notification of
> results, this information will be sent with the free book. Do not send the
> only copy of your work. All manuscripts are recycled and individual
> comments on the manuscripts cannot be made. Entry Fee: $20 for mailed US
> and Canadian entries, $23 for mailed overseas entries, $27 to submit
> electronically (all entries, world wide).
>
> If you wish to submit electronically, you should send $27.00 via paypal to
> info(AT)pavementsaw.org. Then e-mail the manuscript to info(AT)
> pavementsaw.org. Electronic submissions need to be sent as PDF files or
> as word (.doc, .docx) files. Other formats are not accepted. The extra cost
> is to cover the paypal fees as well as the time, labor, ink, and so on, to
> print out your manuscript. In addition to the prize winner, sometimes
> another anonymous manuscript is chosen, if enough entries arrive. This
> ?editors choice? manuscript will be published under a standard royalty
> contract. A decision will be reached in December or January. Entries should
> be sent to:
>
> Entries should be sent to:
>
> Pavement Saw Press
> Transcontinental Award Entry
> 321 Empire Street
> Montpelier, OH 43543
>
> All submissions must have an August 15th, 2012, or earlier, postmark.
> Submissions are accepted during the months of June, July, and August only.
> If you have questions, please ask us: info(at)pavementsaw.org
>
>
> Previous Winners
>
> Sarah Mangold: Electric Theories of Femininity
> Troy Bigelow: Resuscitivity
> Shannon Hamann: Death Doubledactyl
> Stan Mir: The Lacustrine Suite
> Justin Vicari: The Professional Weepers
> Jason Irwin: Watering the Dead
> Rachel M. Simon: Theory of Orange
> Kaya Oakes: Telegraph
> Steve Davenport: Uncontainable Noise
> Garin Cycholl: Blue Mound to 161
> Rodney Koeneke: Rouge State
> Christopher Arigo: Lit interim
> Sophia Starnes: A commerce of Moments
> Daniel Zimmerman: Post Avant
> Jeffrey Levine: Mortal, Everlasting
> Dana Curtis: The Body's Response to Famine
>
>
> Be well
>
> David Baratier, Editor
>
> Pavement Saw Press
> 321 Empire Street
> Montpelier OH 43543
> http://pavementsaw.org
>
> Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at
> http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1
>
> Facebook Page
> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=25857379734&ref=ts
> Be well
>
> David Baratier, Editor
>
> Pavement Saw Press
> 321 Empire Street
> Montpelier OH 43543
> http://pavementsaw.org
>
> Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at
> http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1
>
> Facebook Page
> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=25857379734&ref=ts
>
>
>
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sat Aug 11 18:24:59 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 00:24:59 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Final call, PSP Transcontinental Award,
 deadline Wednesday 8/15
In-Reply-To: <1344614640.89158.YahooMailClassic@web45610.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
References: <mailman.7.1344614415.15293.new-poetry@wiz.cath.vt.edu>
	<1344614640.89158.YahooMailClassic@web45610.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyTpZzyxADftO+d_0B2tD_DE_LYGC_fYMW1UL36PdcK9VA@mail.gmail.com>

Do you have any news of Daniel Zimmerman?
One of your previous winners.

If you do, please share.


On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 6:04 PM, David Baratier <editor at pavementsaw.org>wrote:

> ------------
>
> We are now wrapping up reading for our yearly poetry book contest for 1st
> or 2nd books.
>
> Deadline: have the manuscript postmarked by Wednesday 8/15/2012
> or have payment made via paypal by that date.
>
> Here are the full guides--
> -- Pavement Saw Press Transcontinental Award 2012 Submission Guidelines
> ----
>
> You can submit directly to the website at:
> http://www.pavementsaw.org/pages/transaward.htm
>
>
> --This award is for first or second full length books--
>
> All contributors receive books, chapbooks and journals equal to, or more
> than, the entry fee.
> Please mention this to your friends and all others who might be interested!
>
> Electronic and mailed entries must meet these requirements:
> 1. The manuscript should be at least 48 pages of poetry and no more than
> 70 pages of poetry in length. Separations between sections are NOT a part
> of the page count.
> 2. A one page cover letter. Include a brief biography, the book's title,
> your name, address, and telephone number, and, if you have e-mail, your
> e-mail address. This should be followed by a page which lists publication
> acknowledgments for the book. For each acknowledgement mention the
> publisher (journal, anthology, chapbook etc.) and the poem published.
> 3. The manuscript should be bound with a single clip and begin with a
> title page including the book's title, your name, address, and telephone
> number, and, if you have e-mail, your e-mail address.
> 4. The second page should have only the title of the manuscript. There are
> to be no acknowledgments or mention of the author's name from this page
> forward. Submissions to the contest are blind judged.
> 5. There should be no more than one poem on each page. The manuscript can
> contain pieces longer than one page.
> 6. The manuscript should be paginated, beginning with the first page of
> poetry.
>
> Each year Pavement Saw Press will publish at least one book of poetry
> and/or prose poems from manuscripts received during this competition.
> Selections are chosen through a blind judging process. The competition is
> open to anyone who has not previously published one, or more than one,
> volume of poetry or prose poetry. The author receives $1000 and five
> percent of the 1000 copy press run. Previous judges have included Judith
> Vollmer, David Bromige, Bin Ramke and Howard McCord. This year David
> Baratier will be the judge; past students, Pavement Saw Press interns and
> employees are not allowed to submit. All poems must be original, all prose
> must be original, fiction or translations are not acceptable. All writers
> without a full length book or those who have published only one full length
> book are eligible. Writers who have had a second volume of poetry and/or
> prose poetry under 40 pages printed or printed in limited editions of no
> more than 500 copies are
>  also eligible. Submissions are accepted during the months of June, July,
> and until August 15th. All submissions must have a Monday, August 15th,
> 2012, or earlier, postmark. This is an award for first or second books only.
>
> If you wish to send via regular mail your manuscript should be accompanied
> by a check in the amount of $20.00 made payable to Pavement Saw Press. All
> US contributors to the contest will receive books, chapbooks and journals
> equal to, or more than, the entry fee. Add $3 (US) for other countries to
> cover the extra postal charge. Do not include an SASE for notification of
> results, this information will be sent with the free book. Do not send the
> only copy of your work. All manuscripts are recycled and individual
> comments on the manuscripts cannot be made. Entry Fee: $20 for mailed US
> and Canadian entries, $23 for mailed overseas entries, $27 to submit
> electronically (all entries, world wide).
>
> If you wish to submit electronically, you should send $27.00 via paypal to
> info(AT)pavementsaw.org. Then e-mail the manuscript to info(AT)
> pavementsaw.org. Electronic submissions need to be sent as PDF files or
> as word (.doc, .docx) files. Other formats are not accepted. The extra cost
> is to cover the paypal fees as well as the time, labor, ink, and so on, to
> print out your manuscript. In addition to the prize winner, sometimes
> another anonymous manuscript is chosen, if enough entries arrive. This
> ?editors choice? manuscript will be published under a standard royalty
> contract. A decision will be reached in December or January. Entries should
> be sent to:
>
> Entries should be sent to:
>
> Pavement Saw Press
> Transcontinental Award Entry
> 321 Empire Street
> Montpelier, OH 43543
>
> All submissions must have an August 15th, 2012, or earlier, postmark.
> Submissions are accepted during the months of June, July, and August only.
> If you have questions, please ask us: info(at)pavementsaw.org
>
>
> Previous Winners
>
> Sarah Mangold: Electric Theories of Femininity
> Troy Bigelow: Resuscitivity
> Shannon Hamann: Death Doubledactyl
> Stan Mir: The Lacustrine Suite
> Justin Vicari: The Professional Weepers
> Jason Irwin: Watering the Dead
> Rachel M. Simon: Theory of Orange
> Kaya Oakes: Telegraph
> Steve Davenport: Uncontainable Noise
> Garin Cycholl: Blue Mound to 161
> Rodney Koeneke: Rouge State
> Christopher Arigo: Lit interim
> Sophia Starnes: A commerce of Moments
> Daniel Zimmerman: Post Avant
> Jeffrey Levine: Mortal, Everlasting
> Dana Curtis: The Body's Response to Famine
>
>
> Be well
>
> David Baratier, Editor
>
> Pavement Saw Press
> 321 Empire Street
> Montpelier OH 43543
> http://pavementsaw.org
>
> Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at
> http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1
>
> Facebook Page
> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=25857379734&ref=ts
> Be well
>
> David Baratier, Editor
>
> Pavement Saw Press
> 321 Empire Street
> Montpelier OH 43543
> http://pavementsaw.org
>
> Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at
> http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1
>
> Facebook Page
> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=25857379734&ref=ts
>
>
>
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From halvard at gmail.com  Sun Aug 12 17:47:16 2012
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 12 Aug 2012 16:47:16 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] On Barcelona would love
Message-ID: <CANrCfqE-kJJTfdEu7TepUSjo10V3fODM+0hk-Q3JFu5UQ9-TUg@mail.gmail.com>

to have some of your work.

On Barcelona <http://onbarcelona.blogspot.com/>


Mastering this universe one Higgs boson at a time.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com

On Barcelona <http://onbarcelona.blogspot.com/> (submissions sought; email
to my address above)
Truck: http://halvard-johnson.blogspot.mx/
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
Remains To Be Seen <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>*, Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. II) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>,** Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. III) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Sonnets
from the Basque & Other Poems <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>
*, *Mainly Black <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Obras
P?blicas <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **The Perfection
of Mozart's Third Eye and Other
Sonnets<http://www.scribd.com/doc/27039868/Halvard-Johnson-THE-PERFECTION-OF-MOZART-S-THIRD-EYE-Other-Sonnets>
; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of
Clones<http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Entrance-Clones-Halvard-Johnson/dp/0965404390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283182804&sr=8-1>
; **Tango Bouquet <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **Theory
of Harmony<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall04/theory1.pdf>
; **Rapsodie espagnole<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/rapsodi.pdf>
; **Guide to the Tokyo
Subway<http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Tokyo-Subway-Other-Poems/dp/0971487316/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283183153&sr=1-3>
; **The Sonnet Project<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/hsonnet.pdf>
; **G(e)nome <http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall03/genome.pdf>; **Winter
Journey <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.winter.html>;
**Eclipse<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.eclipse.html>
; **The Dance of the Red Swan <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.dance.html>
; **Transparencies & Projections<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.transp.html>
*
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From ahadada at gol.com  Sun Aug 12 22:50:44 2012
From: ahadada at gol.com (ahadada at gol.com)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 02:50:44 +0000
Subject: [New-Poetry] That request for DZ info. might best be a back-channel
	for D.B. n Big O. Country
Message-ID: <u475DCKZ.1344826244.3855050.ahadada@gol.com>

Anny, it might be difficult for D.B. to share info about D.Z. and his
Sig. O. front-channel.  I happened to be kicking around out there in big
O. country just when Daniel was flush with victory--an introduction by
Creeley even! Caught his earth-shaking reading in a bar (the walls
shook). I met D.B. and others at that time. Those were big O. days
indeed.  Jess, wishing the big O. to each and every one in Poetry land.
If you can't write a great poem, take hope in the achievement of the
democratic O.  :-)




From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Mon Aug 13 10:22:52 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 16:22:52 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] That request for DZ info. might best be a
 back-channel for D.B. n Big O. Country
In-Reply-To: <u475DCKZ.1344826244.3855050.ahadada@gol.com>
References: <u475DCKZ.1344826244.3855050.ahadada@gol.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyQBvYGSRwes5TtKJxgT+i4Y+yPut9jb62LZixVnd5A02w@mail.gmail.com>

Oh, b-c is just fine with me, as a matter of fact I am worried about DZ, he
just disappeared.


On Mon, Aug 13, 2012 at 4:50 AM, <ahadada at gol.com> wrote:

> Anny, it might be difficult for D.B. to share info about D.Z. and his
> Sig. O. front-channel.  I happened to be kicking around out there in big
> O. country just when Daniel was flush with victory--an introduction by
> Creeley even! Caught his earth-shaking reading in a bar (the walls
> shook). I met D.B. and others at that time. Those were big O. days
> indeed.  Jess, wishing the big O. to each and every one in Poetry land.
> If you can't write a great poem, take hope in the achievement of the
> democratic O.  :-)
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>



-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Aug 14 10:56:13 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 10:56:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] McLane's My Poets reviewed in Washington Post
Message-ID: <8CF4844152A3280-8CC-852DD@Webmail-d111.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/books/my-poets-by-maureen-n-mclane/2012/08/07/1c740ed8-dc3c-11e1-8e43-4a3c4375504a_story.html


Also off-putting is McLane?s penchant for trying to emulate the language of the poets she discusses. This is sometimes clever, but there are moments, particularly when the object of imitation is Gertrude Stein, when it?s downright disastrous. (Stein has already given us enough imitations of Stein.) The voice slips from invocation and risks collapsing into parody:


I thought I could make Stein mine. I thought I would make a valentine my own thesis on Gertrude Stein.


And then I read Stein or other Stein and found I could not find through Stein a line much less a through-line.?


/
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From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Aug 14 11:01:04 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 11:01:04 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Women, the New York School, and Other True
	Abstractions; new book from IUP
Message-ID: <8CF4844C27C9950-8CC-85378@Webmail-d111.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.uiowapress.org/books/2007-fall/nelsonwomnew.html

Women, the New York School, and Other True Abstractions
by Maggie Nelson

In this whip-smart study, Maggie Nelson provides the ?rst extended consideration of the roles played by women in and around the New York School of poets, from the 1950s to the present, and offers unprecedented analyses of the work of Barbara Guest, Bernadette Mayer, Alice Notley, Eileen Myles, and abstract painter Joan Mitchell as well as a reconsideration of the work of many male New York School writers and artists from a feminist perspective.
With contagious enthusiasm, Women, the New York School, and Other True Abstractionsranges widely and covers collaborations between poets and painters in the 1950s and 1960s; the complex role played by the ?true abstraction? of the feminine in the work of John Ashbery, Frank O?Hara, and James Schuyler; the intricate weave of verbal and visual arts throughout the postwar period, from Abstract Expressionism to Pop to Conceptualism to feminist and queer performance art; and the unfolding, diverse careers of Mayer, Notley, and Myles from the 1970s to the present. Along the way, Nelson considers provocative questions of anonymity and publicity, the solitary and the communal, the enduring and the ephemeral, domesticity, boredom, sex, and politics.
By asking us to rethink the ways in which we conceptualize ?schools? and ?avant-gardes? and eventually drawing our attention to larger, compelling questions about how and why we read?and how gender and sexuality inform that reading in the ?rst place?Maggie Nelson not only ?lls an important gap in the history of American poetry and art but also gives an inspired performance of the kind of lively, audacious, and personally committed criticism that befits her subject.
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From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Aug 14 11:23:17 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 11:23:17 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Bunting's Persia, review
Message-ID: <8CF4847DD16E520-8CC-85614@Webmail-d111.sysops.aol.com>


Bunting's Persia
review by Patrick Dunagan
http://www.criticalflame.org/verse/0712_dunagan.htm
Thus Bunting?s Persia, handsomely published this year by Flood Editions, is no ephemeral text. Here at long last is the gathering together of all the Persian texts that Bunting finalized in translation. It is at once an excellent point of departure for those unfamiliar with Bunting as well as an introduction to several essential texts of classical Persian literature. Combined with deft editorial remarks by Don Share, the volume offers Bunting?s signature stylistic traits along with an exposure to literature too often over looked in Occidental classroom settings.
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From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Aug 14 14:26:49 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 14:26:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] F-bomb and other new words officially join the long
	march of usage
Message-ID: <8CF486180DD7973-1744-724F4@webmail-d169.sysops.aol.com>

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/08/13/fbomb-sexting-among-100-d_n_1774070.html 


The term "F-bomb" surfaced in newspapers more than 20 years ago but will land Tuesday for the first time in the mainstream Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary, along with sexting, flexitarian, obesogenic, energy drink and life coach...
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From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Aug 14 16:32:58 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 16:32:58 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hass' What Light Can Do: Essays on Art,
	Imagination and the Natural World
Message-ID: <8CF4873208717D2-E30-56FF2@Webmail-d110.sysops.aol.com>


?What Light Can Do: Essays on Art, Imagination, and the Natural World? (HarperCollins), by Robert Hass
http://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/books/former-us-poet-laureate-robert-hass-offers-transcendent-essays-on-art-writing-nature/2012/08/14/f9e3b584-e632-11e1-9739-eef99c5fb285_story.html


The generous and gentle Robert Hass has titled his retrospective collection of essays and talks with a reference to a theme that always sets his work apart: the act of attention.


Visible from the first essay, written 27 years ago, through the last are the lush layers of Hass? rare combination of brilliance, erudition and self-awareness. He is unusually present, able to ponder ?what light can do,? and he notes with just enough modesty that this can sometimes overtake him in the form of ?digression inside the digression.? But he offers his thoughts with surpassing clarity and circumspection. His passion for the subjects he surveys, dissects and gleefully honors is more tender than fiery ? whether he is celebrating the complexity of Anton Chekhov?s short stories, giving Allen Ginsberg?s poem ?Howl? the full cultural context it merits, or exploring the overlooked back story of a protest at the University of California at Berkeley.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Aug 14 17:33:55 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 17:33:55 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hass' What Light Can Do: Essays on Art,
	Imagination and the Natural World
In-Reply-To: <8CF4873208717D2-E30-56FF2@Webmail-d110.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CF4873208717D2-E30-56FF2@Webmail-d110.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <4B0AC9A9D2584025ADD5F58F702CC0BD@BobHP>



From: jforjames at aol.com 
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 4:32 PM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hass' What Light Can Do: Essays on Art, Imagination and the Natural World

?What Light Can Do: Essays on Art, Imagination, and the Natural World? (HarperCollins), by Robert Hass
http://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/books/former-us-poet-laureate-robert-hass-offers-transcendent-essays-on-art-writing-nature/2012/08/14/f9e3b584-e632-11e1-9739-eef99c5fb285_story.html 

The generous and gentle Robert Hass has titled his retrospective collection of essays and 
talks with a reference to a theme that always makes him just another hack: the act of inattention 
to every poetry technique he hadn?t learned about by the time he was twenty.

Irrepressibly Rotten Robert
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From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu  Tue Aug 14 18:50:32 2012
From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 17:50:32 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hass' What Light Can Do: Essays on Art,
 Imagination and the Natural World
In-Reply-To: <4B0AC9A9D2584025ADD5F58F702CC0BD@BobHP>
References: <8CF4873208717D2-E30-56FF2@Webmail-d110.sysops.aol.com>
	<4B0AC9A9D2584025ADD5F58F702CC0BD@BobHP>
Message-ID: <502AD638.7060100@louisiana.edu>

I'm assuming you're just being Bob, Bob, and that you really don't 
believe the nonsense you've just written. Hass has written beautiful 
things. _When_ he attended to the techniques necessary to their 
accomplishment is spectacularly irrelevant. That he hasn't mastered 
every possible technique for writing a good poem is a certainty; neither 
have I and neither (I strongly suspect) have you. It's one thing to 
peddle an ideological agenda and another entirely to denigrate an artist 
because he's chosen to write differently from yourself and the people 
who've most impressed you. You've frequently said on this list that 
despite your preferences you _do_ appreciate all sorts of artists whose 
work (you endlessly repeat) falls between that of Richard Wilbur and 
John Ashbery. And no one has to like everyone else's work. I love 
Bernadette Mayer, but can't find anything really engaging in Alice 
Notley. But five minutes of reading (of "Descent of Alette," for 
instance) is plenty to show me that she's got things to say, is 
searching for ways to say them, is determined to have her say in the 
best way she can, given her human limitations in the face of the 
enormity of language. Hass isn't like her, isn't like you, isn't like 
me. And for several decades, now, I've heard people who'd blow 
themselves up on the spot if they thought it would enable them to write 
a poem with half the intellect and passion of "Meditation at Lagunitas" 
or "The Yellow Bicycle" speak of Hass's apparent guilelessness as a lack 
of skill. But you should know better--I assume you do. You've positioned 
yourself repeatedly on this list as someone whose opinion has to be 
taken into account, and while that stance amuses me (as it applies to 
you, and as it applies to me, when I slip into it), I've always sat back 
and ridden it out, feeling that you deserve your say just like anyone 
else. But in this instance, with you slandering a poet whose work I've 
loved for nearly forty years, I felt I had to say something, to tell you 
that what you've said here seems crude and silly. Of course, as I say, I 
can't really believe that you mean it in the trivial, nasty way it appears.

And that's that, and summer vacation's officially over.

Wishing you well, as ever,

Jerry




On 8/14/2012 4:33 PM, bob grumman wrote:
> *From:* jforjames at aol.com <mailto:jforjames at aol.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 14, 2012 4:32 PM
> *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Hass' What Light Can Do: Essays on Art, 
> Imagination and the Natural World
> "What Light Can Do: Essays on Art, Imagination, and the Natural World" 
> (HarperCollins), by Robert Hass
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/books/former-us-poet-laureate-robert-hass-offers-transcendent-essays-on-art-writing-nature/2012/08/14/f9e3b584-e632-11e1-9739-eef99c5fb285_story.html 
>
> The generous and gentle Robert Hass has titled his retrospective 
> collection of essays and
> talks with a reference to a theme that always makes him just another 
> hack: the act of inattention
> to every poetry technique he hadn't learned about by the time he was 
> twenty.
> Irrepressibly Rotten Robert
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506
jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
337-482-5478

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From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Aug 14 19:56:36 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 19:56:36 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] What lists are for.
Message-ID: <8CF488F92A7AA64-1A08-17045@webmail-m012.sysops.aol.com>

I wanted to acknowledge that Catherine Daly gave me a good tip when she mentioned the poet Janet Lewis. I got a selected and
have been relishing many of poems in it.


Here's the last poem in the collection (and presumably Lewis' last poem)...



River
 
 
Remember for me the river,
Flowing wide and cold, from beyond Sugar Island,
Still and smooth, breathing sweetness
Into still air, moving under its surface
With all the power of creation.
 
Remember for me the scent of sweet-grass
In Ojibway baskets,
Of meadow turf, alive with insects.
 
Remember for me
Who will not be able to remember.
Remember the river.
 
 
 Janet Lewis, The Selected Poems of Janet Lewis (SwallowPress/Ohio University Press, 2000)






Also I posted the conclusion of one her other poems on ursprache, because
it seems to speak to poetics as well as larger things...
http://ursprache.blogspot.com/2012/08/immortal-form.html 


Finnegan
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From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Aug 14 20:03:53 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 14 Aug 2012 20:03:53 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hass' What Light Can Do: Essays on Art,
 Imagination and the Natural World
In-Reply-To: <502AD638.7060100@louisiana.edu>
References: <8CF4873208717D2-E30-56FF2@Webmail-d110.sysops.aol.com>
	<4B0AC9A9D2584025ADD5F58F702CC0BD@BobHP>
	<502AD638.7060100@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <8CF48909779EE48-1A08-1716A@webmail-m012.sysops.aol.com>

Well put, Jerry, so much more than the cursory put-down.


-----Original Message-----
From: Jerry McGuire <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at charlemagne.cddc.vt.edu>
Sent: Tue, Aug 14, 2012 6:59 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hass' What Light Can Do: Essays on Art, Imagination and the Natural World


              I'm assuming you're just being Bob, Bob,      and that you really don't believe the nonsense you've just      written. Hass has written beautiful things. _When_ he attended to      the techniques necessary to their accomplishment is spectacularly      irrelevant. That he hasn't mastered every possible technique for      writing a good poem is a certainty; neither have I and    neither (I strongly suspect) have you. It's one thing to peddle an    ideological agenda and another entirely to denigrate an artist    because he's chosen to write differently from yourself and the    people who've most impressed you. You've frequently said on this    list that despite your preferences you _do_ appreciate all sorts of    artists whose work (you endlessly repeat) falls between that of    Richard Wilbur and John Ashbery. And no one has to like everyone    else's work. I love Bernadette Mayer, but can't find anything really    engaging in Alice Notley. But five minutes of reading (of "Descent    of Alette," for instance) is plenty to show me that she's got things    to say, is searching for ways to say them, is determined to have her    say in the best way she can, given her human limitations in the face    of the enormity of language. Hass isn't like her, isn't like you,    isn't like me. And for several decades, now, I've heard people who'd    blow themselves up on the spot if they thought it would enable them    to write a poem with half the intellect and passion of "Meditation    at Lagunitas" or "The Yellow Bicycle" speak of Hass's apparent    guilelessness as a lack of skill. But you should know better--I    assume you do. You've positioned yourself repeatedly on this list as    someone whose opinion has to be taken into account, and while that    stance amuses me (as it applies to you, and as it applies to me,    when I slip into it), I've always sat back and ridden it out,    feeling that you deserve your say just like anyone else. But in this    instance, with you slandering a poet whose work I've loved for    nearly forty years, I felt I had to say something, to tell you that    what you've said here seems crude and silly. Of course, as I say, I    can't really believe that you mean it in the trivial, nasty way it    appears.
    
    And that's that, and summer vacation's officially over.
    
    Wishing you well, as ever,
    
    Jerry
    
    


 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Aug 15 08:42:53 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 08:42:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hass' What Light Can Do: Essays on Art,
	Imagination and the Natural World
In-Reply-To: <502AD638.7060100@louisiana.edu>
References: <8CF4873208717D2-E30-56FF2@Webmail-d110.sysops.aol.com><4B0AC9A9D2584025ADD5F58F702CC0BD@BobHP>
	<502AD638.7060100@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <0B816F510DCC409F94F94A834DA0A559@BobHP>

Jerry, what I said is hyperbole, of course.  But it is as certainly as true as 
the accolade to Hass that Finnegan posted.  Why should ridiculous 
exaggerations of some poet or critic?s excellence, which are posted
at New-Poetry ten or twenty times more often than ridiculous 
exaggerations of a poet or critic?s flaws, be acceptable and the
latter not?  And when I called him a ?hack,? I meant as an essayist.
To be less ?Bob? about it, I would say he no doubt writes fine
essays about knownstream poetry, but that his failure to do more
than that will always make him seem a minor essayist about poetry 
at best to me.

I haven?t read enough of his poetry to have an opinion of it, just 
enough not to seek it out (although maybe I might now that you?ve
mentioned titles you especially like).  I did enjoy his collection of haiku,
and commend him for his ventures into the form.  His haiku are
superior by quite a bit to Merwin?s and every other mainstream poet
whose haiku I?ve read.

Perhaps it?s wrong of me to be bothered by a mainstream critic?s 
being ignorant of or indifferent to the only significant thing I believe
has happened in American poetry over the past century, the 
discovery and increasingly interesting use of (relatively) new 
techniques, but I am.  I?d love to hear what else of significance in 
American poetry anyone who disagrees with me on that thinks 
happened.

--Bob

P.S., I?m (sorta) working on a book to be called Of Wilshberia and the Otherstream, so 
I may be too into my attack mode right now than I should be, and too sour grapish
because HarperCollins would never in a million years publish my book if I managed
to finish it.



From: Jerry McGuire 
Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 6:50 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hass' What Light Can Do: Essays on Art,Imagination and the Natural World

I'm assuming you're just being Bob, Bob, and that you really don't believe the nonsense you've just written. Hass has written beautiful things. _When_ he attended to the techniques necessary to their accomplishment is spectacularly irrelevant. 
That he hasn't mastered every possible technique for writing a good poem
Sorry, Jerry, but I have to break in here: I don?t really fault Hass for not having
?mastereding 
?every possible technique,? but of knowing about as many as possible
is a certainty; neither have I and neither (I strongly suspect) have you. It's one thing to peddle an ideological agenda and another entirely to denigrate an artist because he's chosen to write differently from yourself and the people who've most impressed you. You've frequently said on this list that despite your preferences you _do_ appreciate all sorts of artists whose work (you endlessly repeat) falls between that of Richard Wilbur and John Ashbery. And no one has to like everyone else's work. I love Bernadette Mayer, but can't find anything really engaging in Alice Notley. But five minutes of reading (of "Descent of Alette," for instance) is plenty to show me that she's got things to say, is searching for ways to say them, is determined to have her say in the best way she can, given her human limitations in the face of the enormity of language. Hass isn't like her, isn't like you, isn't like me. And for several decades, now, I've heard people who'd blow themselves up on the spot if they thought it would enable them to write a poem with half the intellect 
and passion of "Meditation at Lagunitas" or "The Yellow Bicycle" speak of Hass's apparent guilelessness as a lack of skill. But you should know better--I assume you do. You've positioned yourself repeatedly on this
list as someone whose opinion has to be taken into account, and while that stance amuses me (as it applies to you, and as it applies to me, when I slip into it), I've always sat back and ridden it out, feeling that you deserve your say just like anyone else. 
But in this instance, with you slandering a poet whose work I've loved for nearly forty years, I felt I had to say something, to tell you that what you've said here seems crude and silly. Of course, as I say, I can't really believe that you mean it in the trivial, nasty way it appears.

And that's that, and summer vacation's officially over.

Wishing you well, as ever,

Jerry





On 8/14/2012 4:33 PM, bob grumman wrote:



  From: jforjames at aol.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 14, 2012 4:32 PM
  To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Hass' What Light Can Do: Essays on Art, Imagination and the Natural World

  ?What Light Can Do: Essays on Art, Imagination, and the Natural World? (HarperCollins), by Robert Hass
  http://www.washingtonpost.com/entertainment/books/former-us-poet-laureate-robert-hass-offers-transcendent-essays-on-art-writing-nature/2012/08/14/f9e3b584-e632-11e1-9739-eef99c5fb285_story.html 

  The generous and gentle Robert Hass has titled his retrospective collection of essays and 
  talks with a reference to a theme that always makes him just another hack: the act of inattention 
  to every poetry technique he hadn?t learned about by the time he was twenty.

  Irrepressibly Rotten Robert

   

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


-- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506
jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
337-482-5478


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From jforjames at aol.com  Wed Aug 15 12:06:05 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 12:06:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] women who write criticism - roundtable at BAP blog
Message-ID: <8CF4917027805DC-1718-3D906@webmail-m015.sysops.aol.com>

http://blog.bestamericanpoetry.com/the_best_american_poetry/2012/08/women-who-write-poetry-criticism-roundtable.html


Recently, a lot of attention has been paid to the fact that more men are being published than women. Because my sense is that there?s also a lack of women writing about poetry, I wanted to explore this topic in more detail with a number of women critics I admire. The following is the lively roundtable I moderated over the last few months between Sina Queyras, Elisa Gabbert, Shanna Compton, Juliana Spahr, Vanessa Place and Danielle Pafunda.
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From jforjames at aol.com  Wed Aug 15 12:16:13 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 12:16:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] review of Incorrigibly Plural re Louis MacNeice
Message-ID: <8CF49186CE1F61C-1718-3DD23@webmail-m015.sysops.aol.com>


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444025204577545511236752658.html?mod=googlenews_wsj


Though MacNeice honored Wordsworth and Coleridge's precept that poets should hew to the colloquial, he was not himself a literary Romantic. Had he been, he would not have attracted the notice of T.S. Eliot, the quintessential anti-Romantic, who encouraged him early on, published him at Faber & Faber and praised him as "a poet of genius." As a few contributors note in "Incorrigibly Plural," a varied and insightful collection of essays about MacNeice and his poetry, Eliot was central to MacNeice's outlook and voice. For the poets of his generation, MacNeice once wrote, Eliot expressed "succinctly and vividly" what they were "up against"?a lush poetic sensibility that had for too long avoided the harsh realities of existence. 




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From jforjames at aol.com  Wed Aug 15 12:30:16 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 12:30:16 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Another crop of poets comes in; BNP 2012
Message-ID: <8CF491A62FC71AB-1718-3E452@webmail-m015.sysops.aol.com>

http://bestnewpoets.blogspot.com/2012/08/best-new-poets-2012-final-fifty.html 




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From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu  Wed Aug 15 14:31:31 2012
From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire)
Date: Wed, 15 Aug 2012 13:31:31 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hass' What Light Can Do: Essays on Art,
 Imagination and the Natural World
In-Reply-To: <0B816F510DCC409F94F94A834DA0A559@BobHP>
References: <8CF4873208717D2-E30-56FF2@Webmail-d110.sysops.aol.com><4B0AC9A9D2584025ADD5F58F702CC0BD@BobHP>
	<502AD638.7060100@louisiana.edu>
	<0B816F510DCC409F94F94A834DA0A559@BobHP>
Message-ID: <502BEB03.3040503@louisiana.edu>

Of course it's not "wrong," Bob--by all means, be bothered. Me, I'm 
inclined to write my own manifesto, "On Indifference" (let's make it a 
book-length piece, _On Indifference and Other Life-Affirming Virtues_), 
taking the position that there are always people eager to pursue 
possibilities at the margins (or borders, or frontiers--whatever suits 
one's fantasies) of any ensemble of creative forms, while others make 
the best of their own engagement with the history of that ensemble 
(including its hidden history, perhaps), and that there's nothing wrong 
with either exploration of one's energies. It would be important to 
note, in such a screed, that there are huge loads of crap deposited both 
at the margins and in the center.  (If I did the book-length version, 
I'd certainly want to include a chapter [titled "One's Ceiling is 
Another's Floor"?] about how spatial descriptions of "ensembles" is a 
stupid way to go about describing the antics of artists. My bad.) And 
there, the manifesto's done, and I, too, lack a contract to publish it.

As to "the only significant thing" (and thank goodness for that "I 
believe," Bob, which feels refreshingly humane and sensible), you've 
made it fairly broad, haven't you, by describing it as "the discovery 
and increasingly interesting use of (relatively) new techniques"? So 
whatever else you could say about really good writing (of course, my 
"good" is up for grabs, as much as your "interesting") that is 
(ostensibly) indifferent to marginal experimentation, you couldn't claim 
it was "significant" in any, uh, significant way? Well, that's a 
mouthful, whether you digest it or spit it out.

And by the way, just as Philip Levine might be best positioned in 
relation to his little fantasy about Lorca meeting Hart Crane in New 
York, Hass is most ilmpressive for me when I think of his work as 
positioned relative to his beautiful poem about Mandelstam and Vallejo, 
"Rusia en 1931." (I can't find it online--it's in _Human Wishes_ [and, 
since I don't own _Human Wishes_, somewhere else as well--sorry that I 
can't track it down right now.]) It's full of kinds of emotion most 
writers are too careful to allow into their poems (someone would make a 
snotty crack about it in any graduate workshop), making it emerge from a 
subtle drift among prose statement, deep image, and a kind of 
journalistic impulse. It positions itself between ardent political 
aspirations (Vallejo) and the brutal annihilation of a unique 
imagination by a related political ardency (Mandelstam). And it doesn't 
reduce itself to any answer of convenience: it hangs you there, caught 
among its ideas and forms and characterizations. It's not the idea, 
exactly, that makes it so fine, and certainly not its exploration of 
tonal qualities caught up in manipulations of formal dynamics: it's the 
overall effect (and the decision) of that hanging. Here's the key, for 
me: it's not just wistful (Hass, like a great many 20th-century poets of 
much less skill, can be accused of slipping more wist into his poems 
than is quite decorous); it's more a sign of desperation and outrage, 
hung out to bleed. So when I think of Levine, Crane, and Lorca, I think: 
it's great that he wrote that poem about his betters. And when I think 
of Hass, Vallejo, and Mandelstam, I think: they constitute a very 
interesting set, made available by Hass's insight and skill.

Yrs,

Jerry





On 8/15/2012 7:42 AM, bob grumman wrote:
> Perhaps it's wrong of me to be bothered by a mainstream critic's
> being ignorant of or indifferent to the only significant thing I believe
> has happened in American poetry over the past century, the
> discovery and increasingly interesting use of (relatively) new
> techniques, but I am.

-- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506
jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
337-482-5478

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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 16 11:19:48 2012
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 08:19:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Litmus Press in your classroom
In-Reply-To: <CALVxuQAojcKSUKXbFEhRfWZXkerbCDj7SRhr+wU=qrFU_17oKQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <1110633354531.1101268625406.1531.5.45100007@scheduler.constantcontact.com>
	<CALVxuQAojcKSUKXbFEhRfWZXkerbCDj7SRhr+wU=qrFU_17oKQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1345130388.30177.YahooMailNeo@web180801.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>





?  

 
?Greetings!



We are writing to offer our new releases for your consideration when teaching literature or writing classes this year. We are happy to provide examination copies upon request. Simply send an email, including your current mailing address and affiliation, to?info at litmuspress.org.
????????
?
Litmus Press is dedicated to supporting new and innovative cross-genre writing, poetry and translations by emerging and established authors. We encourage interaction between poets and visual artists by featuring contemporary artworks on the covers of our full-length books and in the pages of?Aufgabe,?our annual literary journal.    

 
NEW AMERICAN WRITING / SALVADORAN?POETRY / TRANSLATION / ESSAYS & REVIEWS 
 
?
Aufgabe is an annual journal of new American poetry, essays, notes, reviews, talks, and poetry in translation. Each issue features a guest edited selection of work from outside the U.S. in English translation.

AUFGABE #11

Featuring Salvadoran poetry
guest edited by Christian Nagler

2012 | 400 pp. | 6" x 9" | $15.00??
ISBN: 978-1-933959-16-0 | ISSN: 1532-5539
?
Original art by Yasamina Khan
?
If you are interested in using?Aufgabe in your class, please contact E. Tracy Grinnell at etg at litmuspress.org to discuss a course subscription. 
 
?NEW CONTEMPORARY U.S. POETRY / LYRIC PROSE / POETICS 
?
"The formal inventiveness of Mary Burger's writing in part derives from her questioning of received ideas but also from the sheer pleasure she seems to take in following what the sentence can do within the "as-yet as-ever still-undetermined space between?send?and?receive." The attempt in these poems-in-prose, which are also essays or essay-like poetic inventions, is critical (as in critique and crucial):?to make more real what is covered over and abstracted, not by simplifying but activating the thinking writer's experience of those cultural, philosophical, scientific, and social logics that imagine their target audiences ("us") to be objects merely of affirmation and compliance."?CARLA HARRYMAN???
?
THEN GO ON?BY MARY BURGER?
July 2012 | 93 pp. | $15.00 | ISBN: 978-1-933959-14-6?
?
Cover art by Mary Burger
??Excerpt: Necessary??
About Mary Burger
Mary Burger is a writer, visual artist, and environmental designer interested in cross-genre writing that merges aspects of poetry, essay, and fiction. Her books include Sonny (Leon Works, 2005), a novella on the Trinity bomb test and A Partial Handbook for Navigators (Interbirth Books, 2008), writings about geography and social space. At various times she has been the editor of the literary journal Proliferation, the online forum Narrativity and accompanying anthology Biting the Error, and the experimental narrative press Second Story Books. She lives in Oakland, California and practices landscape design under the name Seedbank. 
 
NEW CONTEMPORARY U.S. POETRY / LGBT WRITING
 


"Vulnerability, fragility, and anxiety are all flushed out into the open here and addressed with such strong sound and rhythm that we recognize a resilient, defiant strength within them. King puts relentless pressure on forces seemingly beyond our reach and, in bringing them closer, exposes their own vulnerable centers. This is a poetry equally committed to language as a tool with social obligations and language as an art material obligated to reveal its own beauty. King's language does both magnificently."?COLE SWENSEN
?
I WANT TO MAKE YOU SAFE BY?AMY KING

November 2011 | 87 pp. | $15.00 | ISBN: 978-1-933959-23-8


Cover art by Deborah Grant
?
Excerpt: "Lidija Dimkovska Has Made A Bomb Of My Eyes"
?
?
?
?

About Amy King
Amy King's mostrecent books are Slaves to Do These?Things?and I'm the Man Who Loves You, both from Blazevox. She is currently preparing a book of interviews with the poet Ron Padgett, and co-edits Esque Magazine with Ana Bozicevic. Amy also works with VIDA: Women in the Literary Arts, and teaches English and Creative Writing at SUNY Nassau Community College, as well as conducting workshops at such places as the San Francisco State University Poetry Center, Summer Writing Program @ Naropa University, Slippery Rock University and Rhode Island School of Design. Her poems have been nominated for numerous Pushcart Prizes, she was a Lambda Literary finalist, and she was the recipient of a MacArthur Scholarship for Poetry. Amy founded and curated, from 2006, the Brooklyn-based reading series, The Stain of Poetry, until 2010. 
 
NEW CONTEMPORARY U.S. POETRY / ASIAN-AMERICAN WRITING
 
 
"Brandon Shimoda is underground, in the realm of the dead...His world is a hushed world--his book, a silent prayer, not to a god, but to life, the life of survivors--that one can whisper, can join the dead --that whisper turns into a ritualistic text, a celebration of witnessing, of the minute manifestations of reality. Brandon Shimoda barely touches his own words: they come to him from afar, float, take a sigh, haunt us and disappear, reappear on the next page, follow their obscure journey--in that we become bound to hear them, we follow them--they make a poem we want to read, and reread with closed eyes. Insinuating itself in the memory of Hiroshima and the bomb--a disaster surpassing disasters--his work is the saying of the dead who return, is a Requiem."?ETEL ADNAN

O BON BY BRANDON SHIMODA

November 2011 | 93 pp. | $15.00 | ISBN: 978-1-933959-13-9


Cover art by Manabu Ikeda

Excerpt from O Bon


About Brandon Shimoda
Shimoda is the author of The Girl Without Arms (Black Ocean, 2011) and The Alps (Flim Forum, 2008), as well as numerous limited edition chapbooks, including The Grave on the Wall (DoubleCross, 2011), Lake M: Book One (Corollary Press, 2010), The Inland Sea (Tarpaulin Sky, 2008) and, with poet/artist Phil Cordelli, The Pines, Volumes 1-6. He is co-editing, with poet/critic Thom Donovan, a retrospective collection of Etel Adnan's poetry and prose, to be published by Nightboat Books in 2013. Shimoda was born in California, and has since lived in eleven states and six countries, most recently Maine, Taiwan and Arizona. 
 
Please note: All Litmus Press titles are available through Small Press Distribution, but examination copies are only available through the publisher, info at litmuspress.org. We are happy to send our complete catalog via mail, or as a PDF, upon request.

Instructors interested in teaching O Books titles may contact E. Tracy Grinnell at etg at litmuspress.org for more information and examination copies.?

We look forward to hearing from you, and to answering any questions you may have about ordering or availability!

Thank you & have a great semester.? 
 
Litmus Press?is a program of Ether Sea Projects, Inc., a 501(c)(3) non-profit literature and arts organization. Dedicated to supporting innovative, cross-genre writing, the press publishes the work of translators, poets, and other writers, and organizes public events in their support. We encourage interaction between poets and visual artists by featuring contemporary artworks on the covers of our full-length books and in the pages of Aufgabe, our annual literary journal. By actualizing the potential linguistic, cultural and political benefits of international literary exchange, we aim to ensure that our poetic communities remain open-minded and vital.   
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Aug 16 16:21:52 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 16:21:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Hass' What Light Can Do: Essays on Art,
	Imagination and the Natural World
In-Reply-To: <502BEB03.3040503@louisiana.edu>
References: <8CF4873208717D2-E30-56FF2@Webmail-d110.sysops.aol.com><4B0AC9A9D2584025ADD5F58F702CC0BD@BobHP><502AD638.7060100@loui
	siana.edu><0B816F510DCC409F94F94A834DA0A559@BobHP>
	<502BEB03.3040503@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <ADAF4FD3BDD643AC8774FDE4C9BB10E3@BobHP>

Thanks for the thought you gave my post, Jerry.  I?ll get back to you on this
in due course.  Right now a sudden realization of deadlines I have to meet
has me into other things (and not thinking very well).

all best, Bob

From: Jerry McGuire 
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 2:31 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hass' What Light Can Do: Essays on Art,Imagination and the Natural World

Of course it's not "wrong," Bob--by all means, be bothered. Me, I'm inclined to write my own manifesto, "On Indifference" (let's make it a book-length piece, _On Indifference and Other Life-Affirming Virtues_), taking the position that there are always people eager to pursue possibilities at the margins (or borders, or frontiers--whatever suits one's fantasies) of any ensemble of creative forms, while others make the best of their own engagement with the history of that ensemble (including its hidden history, perhaps), and that there's nothing wrong with either exploration of one's energies. It would be important to note, in such a screed, that there are huge loads of crap deposited both at the margins and in the center.  (If I did the book-length version, I'd certainly want to include a chapter [titled "One's Ceiling is Another's Floor"?] about how spatial descriptions of "ensembles" is a stupid way to go about describing the antics of artists. My bad.) And there, the manifesto's done, and I, too, lack a contract to publish it.

As to "the only significant thing" (and thank goodness for that "I believe," Bob, which feels refreshingly humane and sensible), you've made it fairly broad, haven't you, by describing it as "the discovery and increasingly interesting use of (relatively) new techniques"? So whatever else you could say about really good writing (of course, my "good" is up for grabs, as much as your "interesting") that is (ostensibly) indifferent to marginal experimentation, you couldn't claim it was "significant" in any, uh, significant way? Well, that's a mouthful, whether you digest it or spit it out.

And by the way, just as Philip Levine might be best positioned in relation to his little fantasy about Lorca meeting Hart Crane in New York, Hass is most ilmpressive for me when I think of his work as positioned relative to his beautiful poem about Mandelstam and Vallejo, "Rusia en 1931." (I can't find it online--it's in _Human Wishes_ [and, since I don't own _Human Wishes_, somewhere else as well--sorry that I can't track it down right now.]) It's full of kinds of emotion most writers are too careful to allow into their poems (someone would make a snotty crack about it in any graduate workshop), making it emerge from a subtle drift among prose statement, deep image, and a kind of journalistic impulse. It positions itself between ardent political aspirations (Vallejo) and the brutal annihilation of a unique imagination by a related political ardency (Mandelstam). And it doesn't reduce itself to any answer of convenience: it hangs you there, caught among its ideas and forms and characterizations. It's not the idea, exactly, that makes it so fine, and certainly not its exploration of tonal qualities caught up in manipulations of formal dynamics: it's the overall effect (and the decision) of that hanging. Here's the key, for me: it's not just wistful (Hass, like a great many 20th-century poets of much less skill, can be accused of slipping more wist into his poems than is quite decorous); it's more a sign of desperation and outrage, hung out to bleed. So when I think of Levine, Crane, and Lorca, I think: it's great that he wrote that poem about his betters. And when I think of Hass, Vallejo, and Mandelstam, I think: they constitute a very interesting set, made available by Hass's insight and skill.

Yrs,

Jerry






On 8/15/2012 7:42 AM, bob grumman wrote:

  Perhaps it?s wrong of me to be bothered by a mainstream critic?s 
  being ignorant of or indifferent to the only significant thing I believe
  has happened in American poetry over the past century, the 
  discovery and increasingly interesting use of (relatively) new 
  techniques, but I am. 


-- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506
jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
337-482-5478


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From jforjames at aol.com  Thu Aug 16 17:08:08 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 17:08:08 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Arcadia Project: North American Postmodern Pastoral
Message-ID: <8CF4A0A5E9ABC38-1FD4-18E0F@Webmail-d107.sysops.aol.com>

http://arcadiaproject.net/ 


I would argue, however, that the term postmodern still has its work to do, at the very least as a descriptor of the intellectual and aesthetic climate that presided over the creation of most of the poems in our anthology, all of which were first published no earlier than 1995. We chose this cut-off date because we wanted to present an anthology of the now, as opposed to a historical presentation of innovations in the pastoral (a worthy project, but a different one; for a sketch of that history, see my article ?A Long Foreground,? elsewhere on this site). There are various dates available to the history of American ecological consciousness that we might have used instead: 1965, the year a nascent environmental movement did battle to save Storm King Mountain from development by Con Ed; 1970, the first Earth Day; 1973, the passage of the Endangered Species Act; 1989, the year of the Exxon Valdez oil spill; 2005, the year of the Kyoto Protocol. 1995 is not in itself a landmark, though like any past year it can be scrutinized for signs and portents: theWhite Earthquake in Chile, Typhoon Angela in the Philippines, or the publication in The New York Times ofTed Kaczynski?s Unabomber Manifesto. It marks the middle of the last decade of the twentieth century and the beginning of millennial consciousness;
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 16 17:12:09 2012
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 14:12:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] TOMORROW NIGHT / STAIN - Joe Hall + Sandra Liu + Dolan
	Morgan + Niina Pollari + Jacqueline Waters
Message-ID: <1345151529.36011.YahooMailNeo@web180804.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

STAIN OF POETRY presents


7 PM on August 17th @?Goodbye Blue Monday?? Bushwick, Brooklyn
Joe Hall + Sandra Liu + Dolan Morgan + Niina Pollari + Jacqueline?Waters
Joe Hall?s poems have appeared in?Gulf Coast, Lo-Ball, HTMLGiant?and elsewhere. Black Ocean Press published his first book,?Pigafetta Is My Wife, in 2010. His second book, written with Chad Hardy, is?The Container Store Vols I & II?(SpringGun 2012).
Sandra Liu?s work can be found in 1913, Hoboeye, and the Beloit Poetry Journal. She currently provides guidance for science & arts grantees at the poles and in New York City. Her debut chapbook, On Poems On, was recently released by Ugly Duckling Presse.
Dolan?Morgan?lives and writes in Greenpoint, Brooklyn. You can find his work in The Believer, Armchair/Shotgun, Field and TRNSFR, among others. His work mythologizing airplane hijackings has been featured in the documentary project, Fortnight Journal. More at?www.dolanmorgan.com
Niina Pollari?wrote two chapbooks, Fabulous Essential and Book Four. A translation from the Finnish of the poetry of Tytti Heikkinen is forthcoming from Action Books in the fall. With Judy Berman, she is editing an anthology called It?s Complicated: Feminists Write about the Misogynist Art We Love.
Jacqueline Waters??One Sleeps the Other Doesn?t?was recently published by Ugly Duckling Presse. She is the author of one previous collection,?A Minute without Danger?(Adventures in Poetry), and edits The Physiocrats, a pamphlet press.
Hosted by Jenny Zhang + Joanna Penn Cooper? + J. Hope Stein
at
Goodbye Blue Monday
1087 Broadway
(corner of Dodworth St)
Brooklyn, NY 11221-3013?(718) 453-6343
J M Z trains to Myrtle Ave
or J train to Kosciusko St

?
"Amy King?s poems seem to encompass all that we think of as the 'natural' world ..."
???????????????? --John Ashbery ( http://www.litmuspress.org/iwanttomakeyousafe.html )
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From junction at earthlink.net  Thu Aug 16 17:46:59 2012
From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 17:46:59 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Arcadia Project: North American Postmodern Pastoral
Message-ID: <21126430.1345153619715.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Aug 16 19:54:47 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 19:54:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Arcadia Project: North American Postmodern Pastoral
In-Reply-To: <21126430.1345153619715.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <21126430.1345153619715.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <0C1894FB0C484F61A137B75BAAB9E92C@BobHP>



From: junction at earthlink.net 
Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2012 5:46 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Arcadia Project: North American Postmodern Pastoral

Or any time in the careers of John Burroughs, John Muir, Aldo Leopold, Rachel Carson, or for that matter John Bartram. The "now" is almost always a claim, and a vehicle. 
There are some very nice names in the TC and I'd guess some nice poems.  But I remember a conversation in which I asked Jonathan Skinner for an explanation of what he meant by ecopoetics. His answer was almost the same as when I asked John Kinsella what he meant by the new pastoral. In my translation, nature poetry. 
I get suspicious when old wine is poured into new bottles.
Even if called, ?post-modern??
--Bob
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From jforjames at aol.com  Thu Aug 16 20:00:31 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:00:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Arcadia Project: North American Postmodern Pastoral
In-Reply-To: <21126430.1345153619715.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <21126430.1345153619715.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <8CF4A2273370D90-11F8-1F682@web-mmc-d08.sysops.aol.com>

I too suspect 'marketing' is at play here. That said, I think the nature poem has 'grown up' some in the last 20 years. It seems more aware of larger factors and influences at play. The nature poem can insinuate itself in urban environment, the flower growing on 32nd floor of the skyscraper, or the wetland created inside the cloverleaf ramps of the interstate, etc.
Finnegan


-----Original Message-----
From: junction <junction at earthlink.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thu, Aug 16, 2012 5:47 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Arcadia Project: North American Postmodern Pastoral


Or any time in the careers of John Burroughs, John Muir, Aldo Leopold, Rachel Carson, or for that matter John Bartram. The "now" is almost always a claim, and a vehicle. 
There are some very nice names in the TC and I'd guess some nice poems.  But I remember a conversation in which I asked Jonathan Skinner for an explanation of what he meant by ecopoetics. His answer was almost the same as when I asked John Kinsella what he meant by the new pastoral. In my translation, nature poetry. 
I get suspicious when old wine is poured into new bottles.

-----Original Message-----
From: jforjames at aol.com
Sent: Aug 16, 2012 5:08 PM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: [New-Poetry] Arcadia Project: North American Postmodern Pastoral

http://arcadiaproject.net/ 


I would argue, however, that the term postmodern still has its work to do, at the very least as a descriptor of the intellectual and aesthetic climate that presided over the creation of most of the poems in our anthology, all of which were first published no earlier than 1995. We chose this cut-off date because we wanted to present an anthology of the now, as opposed to a historical presentation of innovations in the pastoral (a worthy project, but a different one; for a sketch of that history, see my article ?A Long Foreground,? elsewhere on this site). There are various dates available to the history of American ecological consciousness that we might have used instead: 1965, the year a nascent environmental movement did battle to save Storm King Mountain from development by Con Ed; 1970, the first Earth Day; 1973, the passage of the Endangered Species Act; 1989, the year of the Exxon Valdez oil spill; 2005, the year of the Kyoto Protocol. 1995 is not in itself a landmark, though like any past year it can be scrutinized for signs and portents: theWhite Earthquake in Chile, Typhoon Angela in the Philippines, or the publication in The New York Times ofTed Kaczynski?s Unabomber Manifesto. It marks the middle of the last decade of the twentieth century and the beginning of millennial consciousness;

 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

 

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From junction at earthlink.net  Thu Aug 16 20:52:49 2012
From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net)
Date: Thu, 16 Aug 2012 20:52:49 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Arcadia Project: North American Postmodern Pastoral
Message-ID: <15224624.1345164770248.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Fri Aug 17 06:18:00 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 12:18:00 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Wendy Bacon
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyTeJ6bP_mN-O9cWNhTYqweOU0Ub9p8D+007e0ypCcjg-g@mail.gmail.com>

Forwarded by Pam Brown:
Wendy Bacon - terrific!

http://www.abc.net.au/radionational/programs/mediareport/wendy-bacon-retires/4202940



-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Fri Aug 17 07:10:14 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 13:10:14 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lyn Hejinian reads The Book of A Thousand Eyes @ City
	Lights:
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyTiO5RFMUB-3HK5F7Uga5xYD05rqqfYkKOnMZTFmyOq7Q@mail.gmail.com>

http://slowforward.wordpress.com/2012/08/17/lyn-hejinian-reads-the-book-of-a-thousand-eyes/

-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Fri Aug 17 07:39:09 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 13:39:09 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Larissa Shmailo's Bloom
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyQEb2hMmceNij2zOYhtOJ9F=KLh4CpWgADOZMSUaO3f9A@mail.gmail.com>

http://indiefeedpp.libsyn.com/webpage/larissa-shmailo-bloom

-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From jforjames at aol.com  Fri Aug 17 09:51:55 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 09:51:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Arcadia Project: North American Postmodern Pastoral
In-Reply-To: <15224624.1345164770248.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <15224624.1345164770248.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <8CF4A96986E7746-11F8-2174F@web-mmc-d08.sysops.aol.com>


It's not new news, agreed, but maybe it took some time for critics and the ecologically-minded to recognize the body of poetry that has touched on themes of uneasy intersection between the natural vs. unnatural. There is that long line of poems related directly to human-animal contact (not of the owner pet variety) and they usually show the human as less noble and the point of contact generally less desirable for the wild creature. (eg, DH Lawrence's "The Snake.") 


Then there is probably the equally large body of poetry that has the human, sometimes as shaman or visionary, taking the spirit if not suggesting a human physical embodiment of the wild animal (hawk, crow, wolf, bear, etc.).

Another common image is 'the bird flying into the glass pane'. And speaking of skyscrapers, there was a interesting piece on NPR recently about all the work that is being done to try to make skyscrapers safer for birds in flight...


http://www.npr.org/2012/08/08/158201732/sky-high-design-how-to-make-a-bird-friendly-building 


Finnegan


-----Original Message-----
From: junction <junction at earthlink.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thu, Aug 16, 2012 8:53 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Arcadia Project: North American Postmodern Pastoral


Sure, change happens. Hell, Wordsworth even injected an awareness of human misery into his landscapes. 

That flower on the 32nd floor is dwarfed, of course, by the tree that grew in Brooklyn.



 
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From junction at earthlink.net  Fri Aug 17 10:33:10 2012
From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 10:33:10 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Arcadia Project: North American Postmodern Pastoral
Message-ID: <7623132.1345213990840.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From jforjames at aol.com  Fri Aug 17 12:59:37 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 12:59:37 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Art=Text=Art: Works by Contemporary Artists
Message-ID: <8CF4AB0D120FEC4-158C-5AE3B@webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com>

http://www.artequalstext.com/ 



Art=Text=Art: Works by Contemporary Artists


Drawings, prints, and artist?s books from the Sally and Wynn Kramarsky Collection


Zimmerli Art Museum
Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey
71 Hamilton Street, New Brunswick, NJ
September 4, 2012 ? January 6, 2013


Art=Text=Art was organized in 2011 by the University of Richmond Museums, Virginia, and curated by N. Elizabeth Schlatter, Deputy Director & Curator of Exhibitions, University Museums, with Rachel Nackman, Curator, Kramarsky Collection.


The exhibition is organized for the Zimmerli Art Museum by Marilyn Symmes, Director, Morse Research Center for Graphic Arts & Curator of Prints and Drawings.


This online catalogue features images of the 109 works by 48 artists in the exhibition, paired with texts, sound, and audio commentary by more than 35 contributors. An expanded online catalogue for the Zimmerli Art Museum will appear in September 2012.












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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Aug 17 13:06:30 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 13:06:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Art=Text=Art: Works by Contemporary Artists
In-Reply-To: <8CF4AB0D120FEC4-158C-5AE3B@webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CF4AB0D120FEC4-158C-5AE3B@webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <A8146EC0A3694018973BADF3D1B16E67@BobHP>

I haven?t gone to it yet, but thanks for posting this, Finnegan.

--Bob

From: jforjames at aol.com 
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 12:59 PM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Art=Text=Art: Works by Contemporary Artists

http://www.artequalstext.com/  

Art=Text=Art: Works by Contemporary Artists


Drawings, prints, and artist?s books from the Sally and Wynn Kramarsky Collection


Zimmerli Art Museum
Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey
71 Hamilton Street, New Brunswick, NJ
September 4, 2012 ? January 6, 2013


Art=Text=Art was organized in 2011 by the University of Richmond Museums, Virginia, and curated by N. Elizabeth Schlatter, Deputy Director & Curator of Exhibitions, University Museums, with Rachel Nackman, Curator, Kramarsky Collection.


The exhibition is organized for the Zimmerli Art Museum by Marilyn Symmes, Director, Morse Research Center for Graphic Arts & Curator of Prints and Drawings.


This online catalogue features images of the 109 works by 48 artists in the exhibition, paired with texts, sound, and audio commentary by more than 35 contributors. An expanded online catalogue for the Zimmerli Art Museum will appear in September 2012.









--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From jforjames at aol.com  Fri Aug 17 13:26:51 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 13:26:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Art=Text=Art: Works by Contemporary Artists
In-Reply-To: <A8146EC0A3694018973BADF3D1B16E67@BobHP>
References: <8CF4AB0D120FEC4-158C-5AE3B@webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com>
	<A8146EC0A3694018973BADF3D1B16E67@BobHP>
Message-ID: <8CF4AB49F227732-158C-5B0FA@webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com>

I gotta throw ya a bone every once in while to quiet barking.
Finnegan



-----Original Message-----
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Fri, Aug 17, 2012 1:07 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Art=Text=Art: Works by Contemporary Artists



I haven?t gone to it yet, but thanks for posting this, Finnegan.
 
--Bob

 

From: jforjames at aol.com 
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 12:59 PM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Art=Text=Art: Works by Contemporary Artists

 

http://www.artequalstext.com/  
 

Art=Text=Art: Works by Contemporary Artists


Drawings, prints, and artist?s books from the Sally and Wynn Kramarsky Collection


Zimmerli Art Museum
Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey
71 Hamilton Street, New Brunswick, NJ
September 4, 2012 ? January 6, 2013


Art=Text=Art was organized in 2011 by the University of Richmond Museums, Virginia, and curated by N. Elizabeth Schlatter, Deputy Director & Curator of Exhibitions, University Museums, with Rachel Nackman, Curator, Kramarsky Collection.


The exhibition is organized for the Zimmerli Art Museum by Marilyn Symmes, Director, Morse Research Center for Graphic Arts & Curator of Prints and Drawings.


This online catalogue features images of the 109 works by 48 artists in the exhibition, paired with texts, sound, and audio commentary by more than 35 contributors. An expanded online catalogue for the Zimmerli Art Museum will appear in September 2012.




 
 

 



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

 
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From editor at arrowheadpress.co.uk  Fri Aug 17 12:02:27 2012
From: editor at arrowheadpress.co.uk (Roger Collett)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 17:02:27 +0100
Subject: [New-Poetry] Arcadia Project: North American Postmodern Pastoral
References: <7623132.1345213990840.JavaMail.root@mswamui-cedar.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <AC66088AE0BE4B888CA8FB5D07D3C33D@ROCKY>

Bird safety is being introduced in UK and Europe.

http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1112674203/spider-web-glass-birds-081312/

Roger Collett
Arrowhead Press
http://www.arrowheadpress.co.uk/
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: junction at earthlink.net 
  To: NewPoetry List 
  Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 3:33 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Arcadia Project: North American Postmodern Pastoral


  Problem with all those jutting surfaces is somebody's got to dust them. Not to mention guano. The way to go I think is elastic outer walls--something like a trampoline. Bird hits, bounces, no damage. Would also be fun to watch..

    -----Original Message----- 
    From: jforjames at aol.com 
    Sent: Aug 17, 2012 9:51 AM 
    To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Arcadia Project: North American Postmodern Pastoral 


    It's not new news, agreed, but maybe it took some time for critics and the ecologically-minded to recognize the body of poetry that has touched on themes of uneasy intersection between the natural vs. unnatural. There is that long line of poems related directly to human-animal contact (not of the owner pet variety) and they usually show the human as less noble and the point of contact generally less desirable for the wild creature. (eg, DH Lawrence's "The Snake.") 


    Then there is probably the equally large body of poetry that has the human, sometimes as shaman or visionary, taking the spirit if not suggesting a human physical embodiment of the wild animal (hawk, crow, wolf, bear, etc.).

    Another common image is 'the bird flying into the glass pane'. And speaking of skyscrapers, there was a interesting piece on NPR recently about all the work that is being done to try to make skyscrapers safer for birds in flight...


    http://www.npr.org/2012/08/08/158201732/sky-high-design-how-to-make-a-bird-friendly-building 


    Finnegan


    -----Original Message-----
    From: junction <junction at earthlink.net>
    To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
    Sent: Thu, Aug 16, 2012 8:53 pm
    Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Arcadia Project: North American Postmodern Pastoral


    Sure, change happens. Hell, Wordsworth even injected an awareness of human misery into his landscapes. 

    That flower on the 32nd floor is dwarfed, of course, by the tree that grew in Brooklyn.





------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Aug 17 14:25:21 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 14:25:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Art=Text=Art: Works by Contemporary Artists
In-Reply-To: <8CF4AB49F227732-158C-5B0FA@webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CF4AB0D120FEC4-158C-5AE3B@webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com><A8146EC0A3694018973BADF3D1B16E67@BobHP>
	<8CF4AB49F227732-158C-5B0FA@webmail-d065.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <DE166AA44D8A42B1AA307F78818E0AAF@BobHP>

Ah, but then there?s the problem that the combination of text and graphics you provide a link to is illegitimate!  And I?ll howl, which is even worse than when I bark.  This one seemed like it might be okay, but then lightning kicked me out of it.  I?m going back to it as soon as my computer connects me.

--Bob

From: jforjames at aol.com 
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 1:26 PM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Art=Text=Art: Works by Contemporary Artists

I gotta throw ya a bone every once in while to quiet barking.
Finnegan



-----Original Message-----
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Fri, Aug 17, 2012 1:07 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Art=Text=Art: Works by Contemporary Artists


I haven?t gone to it yet, but thanks for posting this, Finnegan.

--Bob

From: jforjames at aol.com 
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 12:59 PM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Art=Text=Art: Works by Contemporary Artists

http://www.artequalstext.com/  

Art=Text=Art: Works by Contemporary Artists


Drawings, prints, and artist?s books from the Sally and Wynn Kramarsky Collection


Zimmerli Art Museum
Rutgers, The State University of New Jersey
71 Hamilton Street, New Brunswick, NJ
September 4, 2012 ? January 6, 2013


Art=Text=Art was organized in 2011 by the University of Richmond Museums, Virginia, and curated by N. Elizabeth Schlatter, Deputy Director & Curator of Exhibitions, University Museums, with Rachel Nackman, Curator, Kramarsky Collection.


The exhibition is organized for the Zimmerli Art Museum by Marilyn Symmes, Director, Morse Research Center for Graphic Arts & Curator of Prints and Drawings.


This online catalogue features images of the 109 works by 48 artists in the exhibition, paired with texts, sound, and audio commentary by more than 35 contributors. An expanded online catalogue for the Zimmerli Art Museum will appear in September 2012.








--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 17 15:44:41 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 12:44:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Arcadia Project: North American Postmodern Pastoral
In-Reply-To: <8CF4A96986E7746-11F8-2174F@web-mmc-d08.sysops.aol.com>
References: <15224624.1345164770248.JavaMail.root@elwamui-mouette.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
	<8CF4A96986E7746-11F8-2174F@web-mmc-d08.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <1345232681.12970.YahooMailNeo@web162502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Call me Mr. cynical, but How to Make a bird Friendly building is what some of us (just me?)?have come to expect from feel good NPR. 



________________________________
From: "jforjames at aol.com" <jforjames at aol.com>
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2012 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Arcadia Project: North American Postmodern Pastoral


It's not new news, agreed, but maybe it took some time for critics and the ecologically-minded to recognize the body of poetry that has touched on themes of uneasy intersection between the natural vs. unnatural. There is that long line of poems related directly to human-animal contact (not of the owner pet variety) and they usually show the human as less noble and the point of contact generally less desirable for the wild creature. (eg, DH Lawrence's "The Snake.")?

Then there is probably the equally large body of poetry that has the human, sometimes as shaman or visionary, taking the spirit if not suggesting a human physical embodiment of the wild animal (hawk, crow, wolf, bear, etc.).

Another common image is 'the bird flying into the glass pane'.?And speaking of skyscrapers, there was a interesting piece on NPR recently about all the work that is being done to try to make skyscrapers safer for birds in flight...
http://www.npr.org/2012/08/08/158201732/sky-high-design-how-to-make-a-bird-friendly-building?


Finnegan

-----Original Message-----
From: junction <junction at earthlink.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thu, Aug 16, 2012 8:53 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Arcadia Project: North American Postmodern Pastoral


Sure, change happens. Hell, Wordsworth even injected an awareness of human misery into his landscapes. 

That flower on the 32nd floor is dwarfed, of course, by the tree that grew in Brooklyn.


>
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From junction at earthlink.net  Fri Aug 17 16:05:07 2012
From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net)
Date: Fri, 17 Aug 2012 16:05:07 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Arcadia Project: North American Postmodern Pastoral
Message-ID: <15404877.1345233907878.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Aug 18 10:29:37 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 10:29:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman and Hass and McGuire
In-Reply-To: <502BEB03.3040503@louisiana.edu>
References: <8CF4873208717D2-E30-56FF2@Webmail-d110.sysops.aol.com><4B0AC9A9D2584025ADD5F58F702CC0BD@BobHP><502AD638.7060100@loui
	siana.edu><0B816F510DCC409F94F94A834DA0A559@BobHP>
	<502BEB03.3040503@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <0313980266A14D0A93856A6B57B2548A@BobHP>

On 8/15/2012 7:42 AM, bob grumman wrote:

  Perhaps it?s wrong of me to be bothered by a mainstream critic?s 
  being ignorant of or indifferent to the only significant thing I believe
  has happened in American poetry over the past century, the 
  discovery and increasingly interesting use of (relatively) new 
  techniques, but I am. 
From: Jerry McGuire 
Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 2:31 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hass' What Light Can Do: Essays on Art,Imagination and the Natural World

Of course it's not "wrong," Bob--by all means, be bothered.
I still don?t have time for you, Jerry, but I?m going to reply, anyway!  (Feel honored.)  
Me, I'm inclined to write my own manifesto, "On Indifference" (let's make it a book-length piece, 
On Indifference and Other Life-Affirming Virtues), 
An individual can?t avoid indifference about some things (like my indifference to the squabbles 
of the republicrats), but no field?s establishment (and every field has one) should be indifferent 
about something like visual poetry that a sizable number of people in its field think is 
important. It took me a long time to accept language poetry (genuine language poetry such 
as Clark Coolidge?s) as anything but nonsense (although not as long as it took me earlier to 
accept free verse?although I instantly accepted Cummings?s visual poetry very early when
shown what it was doing), but I finally did, because so many people who seemed intelligent 
to me were enthusiastic about it.  Not that I can accept every poet?s work that others
find terrific, but I try to.  I?m still working on Gertrude Stein?s.
taking the position that there are always people eager to pursue possibilities at the margins 
(or borders, or frontiers--whatever suits one's fantasies) of any ensemble of creative forms, 
while others make the best of their own engagement with the history of that ensemble 
(including its hidden history, perhaps), 
Some even do both!  At the same time!  You?d never know it from reading any of
the books of criticism Finnegan tells us about.
and that there's nothing wrong with either exploration of one's energies. It would be important to note, 
in such a screed, that there are huge loads of crap deposited both at the margins and in the center. 
Definitely.
(If I did the book-length version, I'd certainly want to include a chapter [titled "One's Ceiling is 
Another's Floor"?] about how spatial descriptions of "ensembles" is a stupid way to go about 
describing the antics of artists. My bad.) 
Not sure what you mean by ?ensembles.?
And there, the manifesto's done, and I, too, lack a contract to publish it.

l suspect you?d have any easier time getting one (from a ?real? publisher)
than I would for any book of mine.  I was just reading about Brad Thor, 
a thriller writer, who was sitting next to a woman on a plane with 
whom he got talking literature.  Toward the end of the flight, he mentioned
he was thinking about writing a novel.  She told him she was a sales
representative of Simon and Schuster, and she?d like to read his 
manuscript when he was done with it.  He did send it to her and it
got published by Simon & Schuster, and now he?s making big bucks.
I can just see you or me having a conversation with the sales rep. . . .
Oh, and the book I spoke of hoping to write on the last hundred years 
or so of American poetry would not be a manifesto.  The changes I 
want are very limited: only that the Poetry Establishment notice my kind 
of poetry?even if they trash it.  And that a poet should do his best to 
master every kind of poetry he can during a lengthy apprenticeship; then 
focus on his favorite kind, but keep in touch with as many of the other 
kinds as he can.  Too many ?advanced? poets are as foolishly indifferent 
to traditional poetry, particularly formal verse, as traditional poets are to
visual poetry and the like.
I thought I had a third demand of the poetry world, but can?t think of it now.
As to "the only significant thing" (and thank goodness for that "I believe," 
Bob, which feels refreshingly humane and sensible), you've made it fairly 
broad, haven't you, by describing it as "the discovery and increasingly 
interesting use of (relatively) new techniques"? So whatever else you could 
say about really good writing (of course, my "good" is up for grabs, as much 
as your "interesting") that is (ostensibly) indifferent to marginal experimentation, 
you couldn't claim it was "significant" in any, uh, significant way? Well, that's 
a mouthful, whether you digest it or spit it out.
You have me there, Jerry.  But it?s as much a problem with the language as 
with me.  I was bringing up my standard belief in the difference I find
between ?effective? poems and ?important? poems.  I need different 
words.  My point is simply that even great poems as the one by Hass 
you mention may be do not significantly enlarge the field of poetry 
because they add nothing significantly new to it. They will add a new 
outlook and style, since every poet has a unique outlook and style, 
and perhaps new subject matter.  But new subject just doesn?t seem 
significant to me.  One painter is the first to depict some new species 
of butterfly, so what?  Or a novelist is first to tell us what the life of 
an Australian aborigine juggler is like.  Ditto.
I think the best examples of what I mean are in classical music: I think 
a case could be made for the view that Brahms?s symphonies equal in 
effectiveness to Beethoven?s, but Beethoven?s were far more important 
than Brahms?s.  I prefer Richard Straus?s Der Rosenkavalier to any of 
Wagner?s operas (I think) but Wagner?s operas are unquestionably more 
important in the way I?m speaking of than Straus?s.  Wagner and 
Beethoven advance their art, Brahms and Straus did not, they ?merely? 
contributed brilliantly to it.
I?ll let you know when I have the right two words or phrases needed 
to distinguish the two kinds of artists.

And by the way, just as Philip Levine might be best positioned in relation 
to his little fantasy about Lorca meeting Hart Crane in New York, Hass 
is most ilmpressive for me when I think of his work as positioned relative 
to his beautiful poem about Mandelstam and Vallejo, "Rusia en 1931." 
(I can't find it online--it's in _Human Wishes_ [and, since I don't own
Human Wishes, somewhere else as well--sorry that I can't track it down 
right now.]) It's full of kinds of emotion most writers are too careful to 
allow into their poems (someone would make a snotty crack about it in 
any graduate workshop), making it emerge from a subtle drift among 
prose statement, deep image, and a kind of journalistic impulse. It positions 
itself between ardent political aspirations (Vallejo) and the brutal annihilation 
of a unique imagination by a related political ardency (Mandelstam). And it 
doesn't reduce itself to any answer of convenience: it hangs you there, 
caught among its ideas and forms and characterizations. It's not the idea, 
exactly, that makes it so fine, and certainly not its exploration of tonal 
qualities caught up in manipulations of formal dynamics: it's the overall 
effect (and the decision) of that hanging. Here's the key, for me: it's 
not just wistful (Hass, like a great many 20th-century poets of much 
less skill, can be accused of slipping more wist into his poems than is 
quite decorous); it's more a sign of desperation and outrage, hung out to 
bleed. So when I think of Levine, Crane, and Lorca, I think: it's great that 
he wrote that poem about his betters. And when I think of Hass, Vallejo, and 
Mandelstam, I think: they constitute a very interesting set, made available 
by Hass's insight and skill.

l suspect he made use of haiku, too.  But however effective you do a
good job of showing he was, he wasn?t ?significant? in my special 
sense.  

best, Bob

I want to throw the above into my blog entry for today, Jerry.  
Please let me know if you don?t want what you?ve written there 
and I?ll keep it off.

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From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu  Sat Aug 18 11:19:13 2012
From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 10:19:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman and Hass and McGuire
In-Reply-To: <0313980266A14D0A93856A6B57B2548A@BobHP>
References: <8CF4873208717D2-E30-56FF2@Webmail-d110.sysops.aol.com><4B0AC9A9D2584025ADD5F58F702CC0BD@BobHP><502AD638.7060100@loui
	siana.edu><0B816F510DCC409F94F94A834DA0A559@BobHP>
	<502BEB03.3040503@louisiana.edu>
	<0313980266A14D0A93856A6B57B2548A@BobHP>
Message-ID: <502FB271.5020505@louisiana.edu>

Bob, you're welcome to re-post anything you want.

By "ensemble" I simply mean a bunch of anything (in this case, 
aesthetic/poetic strategies, tactics, tropes, etc.) taken as a set or 
(ad hoc) group.

And by the way, Bob, I've only met Hass once, in the context of a 
three-day stint he did at Buffalo (years after he taught there); he 
seemed wonderfully open and generous in his approach to influences and 
styles, and at the same time tough-minded. This was shortly after he'd 
published _Praise_. I've always thought that his work took a jump 
forward in that (his second, I think) book, because he adopted a long- 
(or longer-) line approach that better accommodated his dispositions of 
breath and thought than the more Williamsesque writing of his _Field 
Work_ (which I believe won the Yale Younger Poets prize).

Best,

Jerry


On 8/18/2012 9:29 AM, bob grumman wrote:
> On 8/15/2012 7:42 AM, bob grumman wrote:
>> Perhaps it's wrong of me to be bothered by a mainstream critic's
>> being ignorant of or indifferent to the only significant thing I believe
>> has happened in American poetry over the past century, the
>> discovery and increasingly interesting use of (relatively) new
>> techniques, but I am.
> *From:* Jerry McGuire <mailto:jlm8047 at louisiana.edu>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 15, 2012 2:31 PM
> *To:* NewPoetry List <mailto:new-poetry at charlemagne.cddc.vt.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Hass' What Light Can Do: Essays on 
> Art,Imagination and the Natural World
> Of course it's not "wrong," Bob--by all means, be bothered.
> I still don't have time for you, Jerry, but I'm going to reply, 
> anyway!  (Feel honored.)
> Me, I'm inclined to write my own manifesto,
> "On Indifference" (let's make it a book-length piece,
> /On Indifference and Other Life-Affirming Virtues/),
> An individual can't avoid indifference about some things (like my 
> indifference to the squabbles
> of the republicrats), but no field's establishment (and every field 
> has one) should be indifferent
> about something like visual poetry that a sizable number of people in 
> its field think is
> important. It took me a long time to accept language poetry (genuine 
> language poetry such
> as Clark Coolidge's) as anything but nonsense (although not as long as 
> it took me earlier to
> accept free verse---although I instantly accepted Cummings's visual 
> poetry very early when
> shown what it was doing), but I finally did, because so many people
> who seemed intelligent
> to me were enthusiastic about it.  Not that I can accept every poet's 
> work that others
> find terrific, but I try to.  I'm still working on Gertrude Stein's.
> taking the position that there are always people eager to pursue 
> possibilities at the margins
> (or borders, or frontiers--whatever suits one's fantasies) of any 
> ensemble of creative forms,
> while others make the best of their own engagement with the history of 
> that ensemble
> (including its hidden history, perhaps),
> Some even do both!  At the same time!  You'd never know it from 
> reading any of
> the books of criticism Finnegan tells us about.
> and that there's nothing wrong with either exploration of one's 
> energies. It would be important to note,
> in such a screed, that there are huge loads of crap deposited both at 
> the margins and in the center.
> Definitely.
> (If I did the book-length version, I'd certainly want to include a 
> chapter [titled "One's Ceiling is
> Another's Floor"?] about how spatial descriptions of "ensembles" is a 
> stupid way to go about
> describing the antics of artists. My bad.)
> Not sure what you mean by "ensembles."
> And there, the manifesto's done, and I, too, lack a contract to 
> publish it.
> l suspect you'd have any easier time getting one (from a "real" publisher)
> than I would for any book of mine.  I was just reading about Brad Thor,
> a thriller writer, who was sitting next to a woman on a plane with
> whom he got talking literature.  Toward the end of the flight, he 
> mentioned
> he was thinking about writing a novel.  She told him she was a sales
> representative of Simon and Schuster, and she'd like to read his
> manuscript when he was done with it.  He did send it to her and it
> got published by Simon & Schuster, and now he's making big bucks.
> I can just see you or me having a conversation with the sales rep. . . .
> Oh, and the book I spoke of hoping to write on the last hundred years
> or so of American poetry would not be a manifesto.  The changes I
> want are very limited: only that the Poetry Establishment /notice/ my 
> kind
> of poetry---even if they trash it.  And that a poet should do his best to
> master /every/ kind of poetry he can during a /lengthy/ 
> apprenticeship; then
> focus on his favorite kind, but keep in touch with as many of the other
> kinds as he can.  Too many "advanced" poets are as foolishly indifferent
> to traditional poetry, particularly formal verse, as traditional poets 
> are to
> visual poetry and the like.
> I thought I had a third demand of the poetry world, but can't think of 
> it now.
> As to "the only significant thing" (and thank goodness for that "I 
> believe,"
> Bob, which feels refreshingly humane and sensible), you've made it fairly
> broad, haven't you, by describing it as "the discovery and increasingly
> interesting use of (relatively) new techniques"? So whatever else you 
> could
> say about really good writing (of course, my "good" is up for grabs, 
> as much
> as your "interesting") that is (ostensibly) indifferent to marginal 
> experimentation,
> you couldn't claim it was "significant" in any, uh, significant way? 
> Well, that's
> a mouthful, whether you digest it or spit it out.
> You have me there, Jerry.  But it's as much a problem with the 
> language as
> with me. I was bringing up my standard belief in the difference I find
> between "effective" poems and "important" poems.  I need different
> words.  My point is simply that even great poems as the one by Hass
> you mention may be do not significantly enlarge the field of poetry
> because they add nothing significantly new to it.
> They will add a new
> outlook and style, since every poet has a unique
> outlook and style,
> and perhaps new subject matter.  But new subject
> just doesn't seem
> significant to me.  One painter is the first to depict
> some new species
> of butterfly, so what?  Or a novelist is first to
> tell us what the life of
> an Australian
> aborigine juggler is like. Ditto.
> I think the best examples of what I mean are in classical music: I think
> a case could be made for the view that
> Brahms's symphonies equal in
> effectiveness to Beethoven's, but
> Beethoven's were far more important
> than Brahms's.  I prefer Richard
> Straus's /Der Rosenkavalier/ to any of
> Wagner's operas (I think) but
> Wagner's operas are unquestionably more
> important in the way I'm
> speaking of than Straus's. Wagner and
> Beethoven advance their art,
> Brahms and Straus did not, they "merely"
> contributed brilliantly to it.
> I'll let you know when I have the right two words or phrases needed
> to distinguish the two kinds of artists.
>
> And by the way, just as Philip Levine might be best positioned in 
> relation
> to his little fantasy about Lorca meeting Hart Crane in New York, Hass
> is most ilmpressive for me when I think of his work as positioned 
> relative
> to his beautiful poem about Mandelstam and Vallejo, "Rusia en 1931."
> (I can't find it online--it's in _Human Wishes_ [and, since I don't own
> /Human Wishes/, somewhere else as well--sorry that I can't track it down
> right now.]) It's full of kinds of emotion most writers are too 
> careful to
> allow into their poems (someone would make a snotty crack about it in
> any graduate workshop), making it emerge from a subtle drift among
> prose statement, deep image, and a kind of journalistic impulse. It 
> positions
> itself between ardent political aspirations (Vallejo) and the brutal 
> annihilation
> of a unique imagination by a related political ardency (Mandelstam). 
> And it
> doesn't reduce itself to any answer of convenience: it hangs you there,
> caught among its ideas and forms and characterizations. It's not the 
> idea,
> exactly, that makes it so fine, and certainly not its exploration of 
> tonal
> qualities caught up in manipulations of formal dynamics: it's the overall
> effect (and the decision) of that hanging. Here's the key, for me: it's
> not just wistful (Hass, like a great many 20th-century poets of much
> less skill, can be accused of slipping more wist into his poems than is
> quite decorous); it's more a sign of desperation and outrage, hung out to
> bleed. So when I think of Levine, Crane, and Lorca, I think: it's 
> great that
> he wrote that poem about his betters. And when I think of Hass, 
> Vallejo, and
> Mandelstam, I think: they constitute a very interesting set, made 
> available
> by Hass's insight and skill.
> l suspect he made use of haiku, too.  But however effective you do a
> good job of showing he was, he wasn't "significant" in my special
> sense.
>
> best, Bob
> I want to throw the above into my blog entry for today, Jerry.
> Please let me know if you don't want what you've written there
> and I'll keep it off.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506
jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
337-482-5478

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Aug 18 12:43:16 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 12:43:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman and Hass and McGuire
In-Reply-To: <502FB271.5020505@louisiana.edu>
References: <8CF4873208717D2-E30-56FF2@Webmail-d110.sysops.aol.com><4B0AC9A9D2584025ADD5F58F702CC0BD@BobHP><502AD638.7060100@loui
	siana.edu><0B816F510DCC409F94F94A834DA0A559@BobHP><502BEB03.3040503@louisiana.edu><0313980266A14D0A93856A6B57B2548A@BobHP>
	<502FB271.5020505@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <C01B3F7A34A24E67AFD42E2FD57D68D2@BobHP>



From: Jerry McGuire 
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 11:19 AM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Grumman and Hass and McGuire

Bob, you're welcome to re-post anything you want.
Thanks much, Jerry.  I think both of us said some
worthwhile things although what you said about the
Hass poem was fresh, and my boilerplate not.
(Danged good boilerplate, though, even if I do
say so myself.)

By "ensemble" I simply mean a bunch of anything (in this case, aesthetic/poetic strategies, tactics, tropes, etc.) taken as a set or (ad hoc) group.
You?re another against classification, then?   Blah!  I think it essential but 
too seldom done intelligently?as with ?post-moderns.?
all best, Bob
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From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu  Sat Aug 18 13:40:12 2012
From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 12:40:12 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman and Hass and McGuire
In-Reply-To: <C01B3F7A34A24E67AFD42E2FD57D68D2@BobHP>
References: <8CF4873208717D2-E30-56FF2@Webmail-d110.sysops.aol.com><4B0AC9A9D2584025ADD5F58F702CC0BD@BobHP><502AD638.7060100@loui
	siana.edu><0B816F510DCC409F94F94A834DA0A559@BobHP><502BEB03.3040503@louisiana.edu><0313980266A14D0A93856A6B57B2548A@BobHP>
	<502FB271.5020505@louisiana.edu>
	<C01B3F7A34A24E67AFD42E2FD57D68D2@BobHP>
Message-ID: <502FD37C.6020205@louisiana.edu>

No, Bob, I'm not against classification--that's what words are doing, 
damn them. I just (and yes, I grew up, or at least out, on Derrida, 
Deleuze, Lyotard, Hayden White, Stanley Fish, Geoffrey Hartman, Paul de 
Man, etc., though I was never disciplinarily addicted) believe that 
one's always better off being stipulative rather than absolutist. When I 
say "ad hoc," I mean it in an ad hoc way. Same goes for "nonce."

Jerry

On 8/18/2012 11:43 AM, bob grumman wrote:
> *From:* Jerry McGuire <mailto:jlm8047 at louisiana.edu>
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 18, 2012 11:19 AM
> *To:* NewPoetry List <mailto:new-poetry at charlemagne.cddc.vt.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Grumman and Hass and McGuire
> Bob, you're welcome to re-post anything you want.
> Thanks much, Jerry. I think both of us said some
> worthwhile things although what you said about the
> Hass poem was fresh, and my boilerplate not.
> (Danged good boilerplate, though, even if I do
> say so myself.)
>
> By "ensemble" I simply mean a bunch of anything (in this case, 
> aesthetic/poetic strategies, tactics, tropes, etc.) taken as a set or 
> (ad hoc) group.
> You're another against classification, then?   Blah!  I think it 
> essential but
> too seldom done intelligently---as with "post-moderns."
> all best, Bob
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506
jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
337-482-5478

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Aug 18 13:54:19 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 13:54:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman and Hass and McGuire
In-Reply-To: <502FD37C.6020205@louisiana.edu>
References: <8CF4873208717D2-E30-56FF2@Webmail-d110.sysops.aol.com><4B0AC9A9D2584025ADD5F58F702CC0BD@BobHP><502AD638.7060100@loui
	siana.edu><0B816F510DCC409F94F94A834DA0A559@BobHP><502BEB03.3040503@louisiana.edu><0313980266A14D0A93856A6B57B2548A@BobHP><502F
	B271.5020505@louisiana.edu><C01B3F7A34A24E67AFD42E2FD57D68D2@BobHP>
	<502FD37C.6020205@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <D4339D534276461F971F9E6786BB35E9@BobHP>


No, Bob, I'm not against classification--that's what words are doing, damn them. I just (and yes, I grew up, or at least out, on Derrida, Deleuze, Lyotard, Hayden White, Stanley Fish, Geoffrey Hartman, Paul de Man, etc., though I was never disciplinarily addicted) believe that one's always better off being stipulative rather than absolutist. When I say "ad hoc," I mean it in an ad hoc way. Same goes for "nonce."

Jerry


I?m as absolutist as can be about words for someone realizing that knowledge of anything can?t be 100%, knowledge being what a definition consists of. But I have no problem with anyone?s taking my strict definition of something ?stipulatively.


--Bob
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sat Aug 18 16:49:47 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 22:49:47 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: [New post] Papers for the Border #15: The Long
	Form
In-Reply-To: <29724555.201.0@wordpress.com>
References: <29724555.201.0@wordpress.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyRDsx2Z1hcHh=ueJmHfxzfNm+1-57TpLa-8xYFvQvKFdA@mail.gmail.com>

**
  dpcoffey posted: "Four tracks clocking in at over 66 minutes! Podcast
available in iTunes or by clicking here. (00:00) "Doo Rain" ~ Aki Onda,
Michael Snow, Alan Licht ~ Five A's, Two C's, One D, One E, Two H's, Three
I's, One K, Three L's, One M, Two N's, Two O's, One"    Respond to this
post by replying above this line
      New post on *Papers for the Border Podcast*
<http://pftbpodcast.wordpress.com/author/dpcoffey/>  Papers for the Border
#15: The Long Form<http://pftbpodcast.wordpress.com/2012/08/19/papers-for-the-border-15-the-long-form/>
by
dpcoffey <http://pftbpodcast.wordpress.com/author/dpcoffey/>

Four tracks clocking in at over 66 minutes! Podcast available in iTunes or
by clicking here<http://dpcoffey46406.podomatic.com/entry/2012-08-17T11_19_17-07_00>
.

   1. (00:00) "Doo Rain" ~ Aki Onda, Michael Snow, Alan Licht ~ *Five A's,
   Two C's, One D, One E, Two H's, Three I's, One K, Three L's, One M, Two
   N's, Two O's, One S, One T, One
W*<http://www.allmusic.com/song/doo-rain-mt0019623412>(Victo, 2008)
   2. (14:33) "Hwang Chin-Ee" ~ John Zorn* ~ *New Traditions in East Asian
   Bar Bands*<http://www.allmusic.com/performance/hwang-ching-ee-mq0000125448/credits>(Tzadik,
1997)
   3. (30:59) "Sixteen Waltzes in Seventeen Seconds" ~ Paul Flaherty, Chris
   Corsano, C. Spenser Yeh ~ *A Rock in the
Snow*<http://www.allmusic.com/album/a-rock-in-the-snow-mw0000729258>(Important,
2006)
   4. (43:38) "The Crackle of Forests" ~ Tim Hodgkinson ~
*Sang*<http://www.allmusic.com/album/sang-mw0000066238> (RER,
   2000)



*Though credited to John Zorn, it should be noted that the text was written
by Korean-American poet Myung Mi Kim, and narrated in Korean by Jung Hee
Shin. Improvisational drumming by Joey Baron and Samm Bennett.


  *dpcoffey <http://pftbpodcast.wordpress.com/author/dpcoffey/>* | August
19, 2012 at 2:25 am | Categories: Program
List<http://pftbpodcast.wordpress.com/?cat=4094547>| URL:
http://wp.me/p20IIj-3f

 Comment<http://pftbpodcast.wordpress.com/2012/08/19/papers-for-the-border-15-the-long-form/#respond>
   See all comments<http://pftbpodcast.wordpress.com/2012/08/19/papers-for-the-border-15-the-long-form/#comments>

     Unsubscribe or change your email settings at Manage
Subscriptions<https://subscribe.wordpress.com/?key=50767af9d8fde5a8e0948dd98967aabb&email=anny.ballardini%40gmail.com>.


*Trouble clicking?* Copy and paste this URL into your browser:
http://pftbpodcast.wordpress.com/2012/08/19/papers-for-the-border-15-the-long-form/
         Thanks for flying with WordPress.com <http://wordpress.com>



-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From jforjames at aol.com  Sat Aug 18 17:53:15 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Sat, 18 Aug 2012 17:53:15 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Face
Message-ID: <8CF4BA30154B9DE-132C-3340E@webmail-d151.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/culture/la-et-cm-the-face-opera-20120819,0,5683188.story
BOSTON ? Donald Crockett is not the only composer partial to poetry, but his affinity runs especially deep. So much so that his first opera, "The Face," which will have its premiere at the Aratani / Japan America Theatre on Saturday, uses poems as source material.
The poems in question are by David St. John, who like Crockett is a professor at USC. But the composer's admiration for his colleague's work transcends academic loyalty. "Music figures in David's poetry, and he's very attentive to relationships ? particularly love," Crockett said, sitting in a hotel lobby near the New England Conservatory of Music, where rehearsals for "The Face" were taking place last month. "And I find that very compelling."
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From jforjames at aol.com  Sun Aug 19 16:37:41 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 16:37:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] LitMag Watch: Thrush
Message-ID: <8CF4C619CD118F3-16D0-8E499@webmail-d043.sysops.aol.com>

http://thrushpoetryjournal.com/ 




Why the name THRUSH? Thrushes are a species of bird, the songs of some considered to be among the most beautiful in the world.
We love that and that is how we feel about poems.








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From halvard at gmail.com  Sun Aug 19 18:52:43 2012
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 17:52:43 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] LitMag Watch: Thrush
In-Reply-To: <8CF4C619CD118F3-16D0-8E499@webmail-d043.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CF4C619CD118F3-16D0-8E499@webmail-d043.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CANrCfqHSE9_0WNJur-VwHx0+71j3UhxJ03feFves6Yn0iQNjCw@mail.gmail.com>

Or maybe this: Most women experience occasional bouts of vaginal *thrush*.
It is caused by a yeast-like fungus called Candida albicans.


Mastering this universe one Higgs boson at a time.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com

On Barcelona <http://onbarcelona.blogspot.com/> (submissions sought; email
to my address above)
Truck: http://halvard-johnson.blogspot.mx/
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
Remains To Be Seen <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>*, Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. II) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>,** Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. III) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Sonnets
from the Basque & Other Poems <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>
*, *Mainly Black <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Obras
P?blicas <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **The Perfection
of Mozart's Third Eye and Other
Sonnets<http://www.scribd.com/doc/27039868/Halvard-Johnson-THE-PERFECTION-OF-MOZART-S-THIRD-EYE-Other-Sonnets>
; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of
Clones<http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Entrance-Clones-Halvard-Johnson/dp/0965404390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283182804&sr=8-1>
; **Tango Bouquet <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **Theory
of Harmony<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall04/theory1.pdf>
; **Rapsodie espagnole<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/rapsodi.pdf>
; **Guide to the Tokyo
Subway<http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Tokyo-Subway-Other-Poems/dp/0971487316/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283183153&sr=1-3>
; **The Sonnet Project<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/hsonnet.pdf>
; **G(e)nome <http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall03/genome.pdf>; **Winter
Journey <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.winter.html>;
**Eclipse<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.eclipse.html>
; **The Dance of the Red Swan <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.dance.html>
; **Transparencies & Projections<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.transp.html>
*




On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 3:37 PM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:

> http://thrushpoetryjournal.com/
>
>  Why the name THRUSH? Thrushes are a species of bird, the songs of some
> considered to be among the most beautiful in the world.
> We love that and that is how we feel about poems.
>
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From jforjames at aol.com  Sun Aug 19 20:32:05 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 20:32:05 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] LitMag Watch: Thrush
In-Reply-To: <CANrCfqHSE9_0WNJur-VwHx0+71j3UhxJ03feFves6Yn0iQNjCw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CF4C619CD118F3-16D0-8E499@webmail-d043.sysops.aol.com>
	<CANrCfqHSE9_0WNJur-VwHx0+71j3UhxJ03feFves6Yn0iQNjCw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CF4C825B877BE7-E70-31BA2@angweb-usm005.sysops.aol.com>

TMI


-----Original Message-----
From: Halvard Johnson <halvard at gmail.com>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sun, Aug 19, 2012 6:59 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] LitMag Watch: Thrush


Or maybe this: Most women experience occasional bouts of vaginal thrush. It is caused by a yeast-like fungus called Candida albicans.

    



Mastering this universe one Higgs boson at a time.


Hal

Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com


On Barcelona (submissions sought; email to my address above)
Truck: http://halvard-johnson.blogspot.mx/
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/



Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections








On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 3:37 PM,  <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:

http://thrushpoetryjournal.com/ 




Why the name THRUSH? Thrushes are a species of bird, the songs of some considered to be among the most beautiful in the world.
We love that and that is how we feel about poems.









_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

 
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From halvard at gmail.com  Sun Aug 19 20:37:21 2012
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 19:37:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] LitMag Watch: Thrush
In-Reply-To: <8CF4C825B877BE7-E70-31BA2@angweb-usm005.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CF4C619CD118F3-16D0-8E499@webmail-d043.sysops.aol.com>
	<CANrCfqHSE9_0WNJur-VwHx0+71j3UhxJ03feFves6Yn0iQNjCw@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CF4C825B877BE7-E70-31BA2@angweb-usm005.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CANrCfqGnb-jiMnhV3SgLkcPKO5ZXTiicG=BH_gXiv7hiyW-fxQ@mail.gmail.com>

Three Mile Island?


Mastering this universe one Higgs boson at a time.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com

On Barcelona <http://onbarcelona.blogspot.com/> (submissions sought; email
to my address above)
Truck: http://halvard-johnson.blogspot.mx/
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
Remains To Be Seen <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>*, Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. II) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>,** Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. III) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Sonnets
from the Basque & Other Poems <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>
*, *Mainly Black <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Obras
P?blicas <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **The Perfection
of Mozart's Third Eye and Other
Sonnets<http://www.scribd.com/doc/27039868/Halvard-Johnson-THE-PERFECTION-OF-MOZART-S-THIRD-EYE-Other-Sonnets>
; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of
Clones<http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Entrance-Clones-Halvard-Johnson/dp/0965404390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283182804&sr=8-1>
; **Tango Bouquet <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **Theory
of Harmony<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall04/theory1.pdf>
; **Rapsodie espagnole<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/rapsodi.pdf>
; **Guide to the Tokyo
Subway<http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Tokyo-Subway-Other-Poems/dp/0971487316/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283183153&sr=1-3>
; **The Sonnet Project<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/hsonnet.pdf>
; **G(e)nome <http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall03/genome.pdf>; **Winter
Journey <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.winter.html>;
**Eclipse<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.eclipse.html>
; **The Dance of the Red Swan <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.dance.html>
; **Transparencies & Projections<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.transp.html>
*




On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 7:32 PM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:

> TMI
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Halvard Johnson <halvard at gmail.com>
> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Sun, Aug 19, 2012 6:59 pm
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] LitMag Watch: Thrush
>
>  Or maybe this: Most women experience occasional bouts of vaginal *thrush*.
> It is caused by a yeast-like fungus called Candida albicans.
>
>
>   Mastering this universe one Higgs boson at a time.
>
>  Hal
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
>
> halvard at gmail.com
>
>  On Barcelona <http://onbarcelona.blogspot.com/> (submissions sought;
> email to my address above)
> Truck: http://halvard-johnson.blogspot.mx/
> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>  <http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
> https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/
>   <http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
>  Remains To Be Seen <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>*, Remains
> To Be Seen (Vol. II) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>,** Remains
> To Be Seen (Vol. III) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Sonnets
> from the Basque & Other Poems<https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>
> *, *Mainly Black <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Obras
> P?blicas <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **The Perfection
> of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets<http://www.scribd.com/doc/27039868/Halvard-Johnson-THE-PERFECTION-OF-MOZART-S-THIRD-EYE-Other-Sonnets>
> ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones<http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Entrance-Clones-Halvard-Johnson/dp/0965404390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283182804&sr=8-1>
> ; **Tango Bouquet <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **Theory
> of Harmony<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall04/theory1.pdf>
> ; **Rapsodie espagnole<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/rapsodi.pdf>
> ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway<http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Tokyo-Subway-Other-Poems/dp/0971487316/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283183153&sr=1-3>
> ; **The Sonnet Project<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/hsonnet.pdf>
> ; **G(e)nome <http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall03/genome.pdf>; **Winter
> Journey <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.winter.html>; **Eclipse<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.eclipse.html>
> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.dance.html>
> ; **Transparencies & Projections<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.transp.html>
> *
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 3:37 PM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:
>
>> http://thrushpoetryjournal.com/
>>
>>  Why the name THRUSH? Thrushes are a species of bird, the songs of some
>> considered to be among the most beautiful in the world.
>> We love that and that is how we feel about poems.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>  _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Sun Aug 19 21:37:41 2012
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Sun, 19 Aug 2012 18:37:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] LitMag Watch: Thrush
In-Reply-To: <8CF4C825B877BE7-E70-31BA2@angweb-usm005.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CF4C619CD118F3-16D0-8E499@webmail-d043.sysops.aol.com>
	<CANrCfqHSE9_0WNJur-VwHx0+71j3UhxJ03feFves6Yn0iQNjCw@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CF4C825B877BE7-E70-31BA2@angweb-usm005.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <1345426661.31438.YahooMailNeo@web180805.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

Akin to when men get Balantis (fungal infection also known as 'thrush') due to excess smegma.?


-----Original Message-----
From: Halvard Johnson <halvard at gmail.com>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Sun, Aug 19, 2012 6:59 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] LitMag Watch: Thrush


Or maybe this:?Most women experience occasional bouts of vaginal?thrush. It is caused by a yeast-like fungus called Candida albicans.
 
? ??

Mastering this universe one Higgs boson at a time.

Hal
Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com

On Barcelona (submissions sought; email to my address above)
Truck:?http://halvard-johnson.blogspot.mx/
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/
http://www.hamiltonstone.org/
https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/
 

 
Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan;?Transparencies & Projections




On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 3:37 PM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:

http://thrushpoetryjournal.com/?
>
>
>
>Why the name THRUSH? Thrushes are a species of bird, the songs of some considered to be among the most beautiful in the world.
>We love that and that is how we feel about poems.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 
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From newpoetry at mikesnider.org  Mon Aug 20 08:52:57 2012
From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 08:52:57 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets and copyright
Message-ID: <DC4CEA52-06FE-4CF4-A984-EFE284A60C24@mikesnider.org>

http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2012/aug/14/does-copyright-matter/

All text below except that between square brackets is from the article. I may be breaking copyright law by quoting so much.
--------------

[with no copywrite] How would this situation change the way a writer works? Would it make sense now to write the thriller, literary or otherwise, that was once packaged and sold to entertain and to earn? Would I really want to write all those pages, if there wasn?t even the chance of an income? 

...

unable to police their copyright on CDs, musicians nevertheless go on writing songs and can enjoy the feedback and hopefully some income from performing them to an appreciative public; if the songs happen to catch on through the internet then the musicians can enjoy notoriety and expect bigger concerts, if not a huge income from selling albums. But there is no such performative context for the prose thriller, or even the great American novel.

...

In short, you wouldn?t launch blindly into a major novel, as so many young writers do, simply because novels are the form that command attention and promise an income.

...

Copyright, we see, is not essentially driven by notions of justice or theories of ownership, but by a certain culture?s attachment to a certain literary form. If people only read poetry, which you can never stop poets producing even when you pay them nothing at all, then the law of copyright would disappear in a trice.


www.mikesnider.org
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From jforjames at aol.com  Mon Aug 20 08:50:07 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 08:50:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Muriel Rukeyser Centenary Symposium
Message-ID: <8CF4CE975B2CB1A-13C4-369C5@webmail-m071.sysops.aol.com>


Muriel Rukeyser Centenary Symposium


Eastern Michigan University will mark the centenary of Muriel Rukeyser?s birth 
with a Conference/Symposium (March 15/16, 2013). We invite proposals on any 
topic related to Rukeyser and in a range of formats, from panels and individual 
presentations to performative, interactive, and experimental approaches. 
Interdisciplinary proposals and proposals focused on issues of pedagogy are 
especially welcome. For more information check: 
murielrukeyser.emuenglish.org 


Please submit clearly organized proposals of about 500 words, along with 
biographical sketches of presenters or participants, by November 1, 2012, to 
Elisabeth D?umer at edaumer at emich.edu ______________
/
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From theoldmole at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 11:01:45 2012
From: theoldmole at gmail.com (Tad Richards)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 11:01:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets and copyright
In-Reply-To: <DC4CEA52-06FE-4CF4-A984-EFE284A60C24@mikesnider.org>
References: <DC4CEA52-06FE-4CF4-A984-EFE284A60C24@mikesnider.org>
Message-ID: <CAAy7y5RV3j-8GoOWWwBqgiCtADv7DWjDNOmA87Qemxq8GftTYw@mail.gmail.com>

If people only read poetry, the law of supply and demand would be much
different, and poets would be making the big bucks.

On Monday, August 20, 2012, Michael Snider wrote:

> http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2012/aug/14/does-copyright-matter/
>
> All text below except that between square brackets is from the article. I
> may be breaking copyright law by quoting so much.
> --------------
>
> [with no copywrite] How would this situation change the way a writer
> works? Would it make sense now to write the thriller, literary or
> otherwise, that was once packaged and sold to entertain and to earn? Would
> I really want to write all those pages, if there wasn?t even the chance of
> an income?
>
> ...
>
> unable to police their copyright on CDs, musicians nevertheless go on
> writing songs and can enjoy the feedback and hopefully some income from
> performing them to an appreciative public; if the songs happen to catch on
> through the internet then the musicians can enjoy notoriety and expect
> bigger concerts, if not a huge income from selling albums. But there is no
> such performative context for the prose thriller, or even the great
> American novel.
>
> ...
>
> In short, you wouldn?t launch blindly into a major novel, as so many young
> writers do, simply because novels are the form that command attention and
> promise an income.
>
> ...
>
> Copyright, we see, is not essentially driven by notions of justice or
> theories of ownership, but by a certain culture?s attachment to a certain
> literary form. If people only read poetry, which you can never stop poets
> producing even when you pay them nothing at all, then the law of copyright
> would disappear in a trice.
>
> www.mikesnider.org
>
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Aug 20 12:35:01 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 12:35:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets and copyright
In-Reply-To: <CAAy7y5RV3j-8GoOWWwBqgiCtADv7DWjDNOmA87Qemxq8GftTYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DC4CEA52-06FE-4CF4-A984-EFE284A60C24@mikesnider.org>
	<CAAy7y5RV3j-8GoOWWwBqgiCtADv7DWjDNOmA87Qemxq8GftTYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <58170752F8BB47C483EC4B57F5074048@BobHP>

I think being able to say ?I did this,? or ?I made this? is a chief motivating force in 
everything?and is the main reason for copyrighting.  I occurs to me that maybe 
the Internet will make copyright for this reason unnecessary?by dating a sending 
storing multiple copies of  printed material all over the place.  I personally
want my name fixed to my works so that I can daydream about posterity
enjoying it and knowing I made it without the possibility being totally unlikely.
It would please me if people enjoyed my works in the future without knowing 
who made them, or even thinking some thief had, but that scenario wouldn?t
make much of a daydream for me.

--Bob

From: Tad Richards 
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 11:01 AM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poets and copyright

If people only read poetry, the law of supply and demand would be much different, and poets would be making the big bucks.

On Monday, August 20, 2012, Michael Snider wrote:

  http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2012/aug/14/does-copyright-matter/

  All text below except that between square brackets is from the article. I may be breaking copyright law by quoting so much.
  --------------

  [with no copywrite] How would this situation change the way a writer works? Would it make sense now to write the thriller, literary or otherwise, that was once packaged and sold to entertain and to earn? Would I really want to write all those pages, if there wasn?t even the chance of an income? 

  ...

  unable to police their copyright on CDs, musicians nevertheless go on writing songs and can enjoy the feedback and hopefully some income from performing them to an appreciative public; if the songs happen to catch on through the internet then the musicians can enjoy notoriety and expect bigger concerts, if not a huge income from selling albums. But there is no such performative context for the prose thriller, or even the great American novel.

  ...

  In short, you wouldn?t launch blindly into a major novel, as so many young writers do, simply because novels are the form that command attention and promise an income.

  ...

  Copyright, we see, is not essentially driven by notions of justice or theories of ownership, but by a certain culture?s attachment to a certain literary form. If people only read poetry, which you can never stop poets producing even when you pay them nothing at all, then the law of copyright would disappear in a trice.


  www.mikesnider.org


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 20 15:31:52 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 12:31:52 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman and Hass and McGuire
In-Reply-To: <502FB271.5020505@louisiana.edu>
References: <8CF4873208717D2-E30-56FF2@Webmail-d110.sysops.aol.com><4B0AC9A9D2584025ADD5F58F702CC0BD@BobHP><502AD638.7060100@loui
	siana.edu><0B816F510DCC409F94F94A834DA0A559@BobHP>
	<502BEB03.3040503@louisiana.edu>
	<0313980266A14D0A93856A6B57B2548A@BobHP>
	<502FB271.5020505@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <1345491112.21598.YahooMailNeo@web162502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Perhaps it?s wrong of me to be bothered by a mainstream critic?s 
being ignorant of or indifferent to the only significant thing I believe
has happened in American poetry over the past century, the 
discovery and increasingly interesting use of (relatively) new techniques, but I am.

Bob hasthat axe to grind. & that involves passion. It's a rare quality. 




________________________________
 From: Jerry McGuire <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at charlemagne.cddc.vt.edu> 
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2012 11:19 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Grumman and Hass and McGuire
 

Bob, you're welcome to re-post anything you want.

By "ensemble" I simply mean a bunch of anything (in this case,
      aesthetic/poetic strategies, tactics, tropes, etc.) taken as a set
      or (ad hoc) group.

And by the way, Bob, I've only met Hass once, in the context of a
      three-day stint he did at Buffalo (years after he taught there);
      he seemed wonderfully open and generous in his approach to
      influences and styles, and at the same time tough-minded. This was
      shortly after he'd published _Praise_. I've always thought that
      his work took a jump forward in that (his second, I think) book,
      because he adopted a long- (or longer-) line approach that better
      accommodated his dispositions of breath and thought than the more
      Williamsesque writing of his _Field Work_ (which I believe won the
      Yale Younger Poets prize).

Best,

Jerry


 
On 8/18/2012 9:29 AM, bob grumman wrote:

On 8/15/2012 7:42 AM, bob grumman wrote:
>
>Perhaps it?s wrong of me to be bothered by a mainstream critic?s 
>>being ignorant of or indifferent to the only significant thing I believe
>>has happened in American poetry over the past century, the 
>>discovery and increasingly interesting use of (relatively) new 
>>techniques, but I am. From: Jerry McGuire 
>Sent: Wednesday, August 15, 2012 2:31 PM
>To: NewPoetry List 
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hass' What Light Can Do: Essays on Art,Imagination and the Natural World
>?Of course it's not "wrong," Bob--by all means, be bothered.  
>? 
>I still don?t have time for you, Jerry, but I?m going to reply, anyway!? (Feel honored.)?  
>? 
>Me, I'm inclined to write my own manifesto,  "On Indifference" (let's make it a book-length piece,  
>On Indifference and Other Life-Affirming Virtues),  
>? 
>An individual can?t avoid indifference about some things (like my indifference to the squabbles  
>of the republicrats), but no field?s establishment (and every field has one) should be indifferent  
>about something like visual poetry that a sizable number of people in its field think is  
>important. It took me a long time to accept language poetry (genuine language poetry such  
>as Clark Coolidge?s) as anything but nonsense (although not as long as it took me earlier to  
>accept free verse?although I instantly accepted Cummings?s visual poetry very early when 
>shown what it was doing), but I finally did, because so many people  who seemed intelligent  
>to me were enthusiastic about it.? Not that I can accept every poet?s work that others 
>find terrific, but I try to.? I?m still working on Gertrude Stein?s. 
>? 
>taking the position that there are always people eager to pursue possibilities at the margins  
>(or borders, or frontiers--whatever suits one's fantasies) of any ensemble of creative forms,  
>while others make the best of their own engagement with the history of that ensemble  
>(including its hidden history, perhaps),  
>? 
>Some even do both!? At the same time!? You?d never know it from reading any of 
>the books of criticism Finnegan tells us about. 
>? 
>and that there's nothing wrong with either exploration of one's energies. It would be important to note,  
>in such a screed, that there are huge loads of crap deposited both at the margins and in the center.  
>? 
>Definitely. 
>? 
>(If I did the book-length version, I'd certainly want to include a chapter [titled "One's Ceiling is  
>Another's Floor"?] about how spatial descriptions of "ensembles" is a stupid way to go about  
>describing the antics of artists. My bad.)  
>? 
>Not sure what you mean by ?ensembles.? 
>? 
>And there, the manifesto's done, and I, too, lack a contract to publish it.
> 
>l suspect you?d have any easier time getting one (from a ?real? publisher) 
>than I would for any book of mine.? I was just reading about Brad Thor,  
>a thriller writer, who was sitting next to a woman on a plane with  
>whom he got talking literature.? Toward the end of the flight, he mentioned 
>he was thinking about writing a novel.? She told him she was a sales 
>representative of Simon and Schuster, and she?d like to read his  
>manuscript when he was done with it.? He did send it to her and it 
>got published by Simon & Schuster, and now he?s making big bucks. 
>I can just see you or me having a conversation with the sales rep. . . . 
>? 
>Oh, and the book I spoke of hoping to write on the last hundred years  
>or so of American poetry would not be a manifesto.? The changes I  
>want are very limited: only that the Poetry Establishment notice my kind  
>of poetry?even if they trash it.? And that a poet should do his best to  
>master every kind of poetry he can during a lengthy apprenticeship; then  
>focus on his favorite kind, but keep in touch with as many of the other  
>kinds as he can.? Too many ?advanced? poets are as foolishly indifferent  
>to traditional poetry, particularly formal verse, as traditional poets are to 
>visual poetry and the like. 
>? 
>I thought I had a third demand of the poetry world, but can?t think of it now. 
>? 
>As to "the only significant thing" (and thank goodness for that "I believe,"  
>Bob, which feels refreshingly humane and sensible), you've made it fairly  
>broad, haven't you, by describing it as "the discovery and increasingly  
>interesting use of (relatively) new techniques"? So whatever else you could  
>say about really good writing (of course, my "good" is up for grabs, as much  
>as your "interesting") that is (ostensibly) indifferent to marginal experimentation,  
>you couldn't claim it was "significant" in any, uh, significant way? Well, that's  
>a mouthful, whether you digest it or spit it out. 
>? 
>You have me there, Jerry.? But it?s as much a problem with the language as  
>with me.? I was bringing up my standard belief in the difference I find 
>between ?effective? poems and ?important? poems.? I need different  
>words.? My point is simply that even great poems as the one by Hass  
>you mention may be do not significantly enlarge the field of poetry  
>because they add nothing significantly new to it.  They will add a new  
>outlook and style, since every poet has a unique  outlook and style,  
>and perhaps new subject matter.? But new subject  just doesn?t seem  
>significant to me.? One painter is the first to depict  some new species  
>of butterfly, so what?? Or a novelist is first to  tell us what the life of  
>an Australian  aborigine juggler is like.? Ditto. 
>? 
>I think the best examples of what I mean are in classical music: I think  
>a case could be made for the view that  Brahms?s symphonies equal in  
>effectiveness to Beethoven?s, but  Beethoven?s were far more important  
>than Brahms?s.? I prefer Richard  Straus?s Der Rosenkavalier to any of  
>Wagner?s operas (I think) but  Wagner?s operas are unquestionably more  
>important in the way I?m  speaking of than Straus?s.? Wagner and  
>Beethoven advance their art,  Brahms and Straus did not, they ?merely?  
>contributed brilliantly to it. 
>? 
>I?ll let you know when I have the right two words or phrases needed  
>to distinguish the two kinds of artists. 
>And by the way, just as Philip Levine might be best
                positioned in relation 
>to his little fantasy about Lorca meeting Hart Crane in New York, Hass 
>is most ilmpressive for me when I think of his work as positioned relative 
>to his beautiful poem about Mandelstam and Vallejo, "Rusia en 1931." 
>(I can't find it online--it's in _Human Wishes_ [and, since I don't own
>Human Wishes, somewhere else as well--sorry that I can't track it down 
>right now.]) It's full of kinds of emotion most writers are too careful to 
>allow into their poems (someone would make a snotty crack about it in 
>any graduate workshop), making it emerge from a subtle drift among 
>prose statement, deep image, and a kind of journalistic impulse. It positions 
>itself between ardent political aspirations (Vallejo) and the brutal annihilation 
>of a unique imagination by a related political ardency (Mandelstam). And it 
>doesn't reduce itself to any answer of convenience: it hangs you there, 
>caught among its ideas and forms and characterizations. It's not the idea, 
>exactly, that makes it so fine, and certainly not its exploration of tonal 
>qualities caught up in manipulations of formal dynamics: it's the overall 
>effect (and the decision) of that hanging. Here's the key, for me: it's 
>not just wistful (Hass, like a great many 20th-century poets of much 
>less skill, can be accused of slipping more wist into his poems than is 
>quite decorous); it's more a sign of desperation and outrage, hung out to 
>bleed. So when I think of Levine, Crane, and Lorca, I think: it's great that 
>he wrote that poem about his betters. And when I think of Hass, Vallejo, and 
>Mandelstam, I think: they constitute a very interesting set, made available 
>by Hass's insight and skill.
>?
>l suspect he made use of haiku, too.? But however effective you do a
>good job of showing he was, he wasn?t ?significant? in my special 
>sense.? 
>
>best, Bob
>
>I want to throw the above into my blog entry for today, Jerry.? 
>Please let me know if you don?t want what you?ve written there 
>and I?ll keep it off.
>? 
>? 
>
>
>_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 

-- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506 jlm8047 at louisiana.edu 337-482-5478 
_______________________________________________
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From barrys.alpert at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 15:54:44 2012
From: barrys.alpert at gmail.com (Barry Alpert)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 15:54:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] 2012 Library of Congress National Book Festival
Message-ID: <CADm2jDHeZzrrWgXiPZN_Nx5c4J13Y5CpJs4dtVzJSPxLkKVjTw@mail.gmail.com>

Having attended numerous previous versions of the National Book Festival,
I've had the occasion to witness (within the Poetry Tent) trial
presentations of future poet laureates (way before the public announcement
of the appointment).   Most notably, Natasha Trethewey two years ago, and
Kay Ryan (introduced by Dana Gioia) perhaps 4 years ago.  Suspect Stephen
Dunn may be the stealth candidate for 2013-2014.

http://www.loc.gov/bookfest/


Barry Alpert
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From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu  Mon Aug 20 17:20:13 2012
From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 16:20:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman and Hass and McGuire
In-Reply-To: <1345491112.21598.YahooMailNeo@web162502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <8CF4873208717D2-E30-56FF2@Webmail-d110.sysops.aol.com><4B0AC9A9D2584025ADD5F58F702CC0BD@BobHP><502AD638.7060100@loui
	siana.edu><0B816F510DCC409F94F94A834DA0A559@BobHP>
	<502BEB03.3040503@louisiana.edu>
	<0313980266A14D0A93856A6B57B2548A@BobHP>
	<502FB271.5020505@louisiana.edu>
	<1345491112.21598.YahooMailNeo@web162502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5032AA0D.1060203@louisiana.edu>

Really? With no disrespect at all intended towards Bob (or you), there's 
also a claim out there that the worst are full of passionate intensity. 
If that's even partly true--and it surely is--I can't see that passion 
is so rare; and (more seriously) poets tend to be passionate about their 
distinctive quirks, tropes, and cubby- and spiderholes. Passion isn't an 
excuse for anything, though it's often a reasonable explanation: but 
again, explanation isn't justification, legitimation, or moral 
validation. It's just explanation.

Best,

Jerry


On 8/20/2012 2:31 PM, stephen russell wrote:
> Perhaps it's wrong of me to be bothered by a mainstream critic's
> being ignorant of or indifferent to the only significant thing I believe
> has happened in American poetry over the past century, the
> discovery and increasingly interesting use of (relatively) new
> techniques, but I am.
>
> Bob hasthat axe to grind. & that involves passion. It's a rare quality.
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Jerry McGuire <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu>
> *To:* NewPoetry List <new-poetry at charlemagne.cddc.vt.edu>
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 18, 2012 11:19 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Grumman and Hass and McGuire
>
> Bob, you're welcome to re-post anything you want.
>
> By "ensemble" I simply mean a bunch of anything (in this case, 
> aesthetic/poetic strategies, tactics, tropes, etc.) taken as a set or 
> (ad hoc) group.
>
> And by the way, Bob, I've only met Hass once, in the context of a 
> three-day stint he did at Buffalo (years after he taught there); he 
> seemed wonderfully open and generous in his approach to influences and 
> styles, and at the same time tough-minded. This was shortly after he'd 
> published _Praise_. I've always thought that his work took a jump 
> forward in that (his second, I think) book, because he adopted a long- 
> (or longer-) line approach that better accommodated his dispositions 
> of breath and thought than the more Williamsesque writing of his 
> _Field Work_ (which I believe won the Yale Younger Poets prize).
>
> Best,
>
> Jerry
>
>
> On 8/18/2012 9:29 AM, bob grumman wrote:
>> On 8/15/2012 7:42 AM, bob grumman wrote:
>>> Perhaps it's wrong of me to be bothered by a mainstream critic's
>>> being ignorant of or indifferent to the only significant thing I believe
>>> has happened in American poetry over the past century, the
>>> discovery and increasingly interesting use of (relatively) new
>>> techniques, but I am.
>> *From:* Jerry McGuire <mailto:jlm8047 at louisiana.edu>
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 15, 2012 2:31 PM
>> *To:* NewPoetry List <mailto:new-poetry at charlemagne.cddc.vt.edu>
>> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Hass' What Light Can Do: Essays on 
>> Art,Imagination and the Natural World
>> Of course it's not "wrong," Bob--by all means, be bothered.
>> I still don't have time for you, Jerry, but I'm going to reply, 
>> anyway!  (Feel honored.)
>> Me, I'm inclined to write my own manifesto,
>> "On Indifference" (let's make it a book-length piece,
>> /On Indifference and Other Life-Affirming Virtues/),
>> An individual can't avoid indifference about some things (like my 
>> indifference to the squabbles
>> of the republicrats), but no field's establishment (and every field 
>> has one) should be indifferent
>> about something like visual poetry that a sizable number of people in 
>> its field think is
>> important. It took me a long time to accept language poetry (genuine 
>> language poetry such
>> as Clark Coolidge's) as anything but nonsense (although not as long 
>> as it took me earlier to
>> accept free verse---although I instantly accepted Cummings's visual 
>> poetry very early when
>> shown what it was doing), but I finally did, because so many people
>> who seemed intelligent
>> to me were enthusiastic about it.  Not that I can accept every poet's 
>> work that others
>> find terrific, but I try to.  I'm still working on Gertrude Stein's.
>> taking the position that there are always people eager to pursue 
>> possibilities at the margins
>> (or borders, or frontiers--whatever suits one's fantasies) of any 
>> ensemble of creative forms,
>> while others make the best of their own engagement with the history 
>> of that ensemble
>> (including its hidden history, perhaps),
>> Some even do both!  At the same time!  You'd never know it from 
>> reading any of
>> the books of criticism Finnegan tells us about.
>> and that there's nothing wrong with either exploration of one's 
>> energies. It would be important to note,
>> in such a screed, that there are huge loads of crap deposited both at 
>> the margins and in the center.
>> Definitely.
>> (If I did the book-length version, I'd certainly want to include a 
>> chapter [titled "One's Ceiling is
>> Another's Floor"?] about how spatial descriptions of "ensembles" is a 
>> stupid way to go about
>> describing the antics of artists. My bad.)
>> Not sure what you mean by "ensembles."
>> And there, the manifesto's done, and I, too, lack a contract to 
>> publish it.
>> l suspect you'd have any easier time getting one (from a "real" 
>> publisher)
>> than I would for any book of mine.  I was just reading about Brad Thor,
>> a thriller writer, who was sitting next to a woman on a plane with
>> whom he got talking literature.  Toward the end of the flight, he 
>> mentioned
>> he was thinking about writing a novel.  She told him she was a sales
>> representative of Simon and Schuster, and she'd like to read his
>> manuscript when he was done with it.  He did send it to her and it
>> got published by Simon & Schuster, and now he's making big bucks.
>> I can just see you or me having a conversation with the sales rep. . . .
>> Oh, and the book I spoke of hoping to write on the last hundred years
>> or so of American poetry would not be a manifesto. The changes I
>> want are very limited: only that the Poetry Establishment /notice/ my 
>> kind
>> of poetry---even if they trash it.  And that a poet should do his 
>> best to
>> master /every/ kind of poetry he can during a /lengthy/ 
>> apprenticeship; then
>> focus on his favorite kind, but keep in touch with as many of the other
>> kinds as he can.  Too many "advanced" poets are as foolishly indifferent
>> to traditional poetry, particularly formal verse, as traditional 
>> poets are to
>> visual poetry and the like.
>> I thought I had a third demand of the poetry world, but can't think 
>> of it now.
>> As to "the only significant thing" (and thank goodness for that "I 
>> believe,"
>> Bob, which feels refreshingly humane and sensible), you've made it 
>> fairly
>> broad, haven't you, by describing it as "the discovery and increasingly
>> interesting use of (relatively) new techniques"? So whatever else you 
>> could
>> say about really good writing (of course, my "good" is up for grabs, 
>> as much
>> as your "interesting") that is (ostensibly) indifferent to marginal 
>> experimentation,
>> you couldn't claim it was "significant" in any, uh, significant way? 
>> Well, that's
>> a mouthful, whether you digest it or spit it out.
>> You have me there, Jerry.  But it's as much a problem with the 
>> language as
>> with me.  I was bringing up my standard belief in the difference I find
>> between "effective" poems and "important" poems. I need different
>> words.  My point is simply that even great poems as the one by Hass
>> you mention may be do not significantly enlarge the field of poetry
>> because they add nothing significantly new to it.
>> They will add a new
>> outlook and style, since every poet has a unique
>> outlook and style,
>> and perhaps new subject matter.  But new subject
>> just doesn't seem
>> significant to me.  One painter is the first to depict
>> some new species
>> of butterfly, so what?  Or a novelist is first to
>> tell us what the life of
>> an Australian
>> aborigine juggler is like.  Ditto.
>> I think the best examples of what I mean are in classical music: I think
>> a case could be made for the view that
>> Brahms's symphonies equal in
>> effectiveness to Beethoven's, but
>> Beethoven's were far more important
>> than Brahms's.  I prefer Richard
>> Straus's /Der Rosenkavalier/ to any of
>> Wagner's operas (I think) but
>> Wagner's operas are unquestionably more
>> important in the way I'm
>> speaking of than Straus's.  Wagner and
>> Beethoven advance their art,
>> Brahms and Straus did not, they "merely"
>> contributed brilliantly to it.
>> I'll let you know when I have the right two words or phrases needed
>> to distinguish the two kinds of artists.
>>
>> And by the way, just as Philip Levine might be best positioned in 
>> relation
>> to his little fantasy about Lorca meeting Hart Crane in New York, Hass
>> is most ilmpressive for me when I think of his work as positioned 
>> relative
>> to his beautiful poem about Mandelstam and Vallejo, "Rusia en 1931."
>> (I can't find it online--it's in _Human Wishes_ [and, since I don't own
>> /Human Wishes/, somewhere else as well--sorry that I can't track it down
>> right now.]) It's full of kinds of emotion most writers are too 
>> careful to
>> allow into their poems (someone would make a snotty crack about it in
>> any graduate workshop), making it emerge from a subtle drift among
>> prose statement, deep image, and a kind of journalistic impulse. It 
>> positions
>> itself between ardent political aspirations (Vallejo) and the brutal 
>> annihilation
>> of a unique imagination by a related political ardency (Mandelstam). 
>> And it
>> doesn't reduce itself to any answer of convenience: it hangs you there,
>> caught among its ideas and forms and characterizations. It's not the 
>> idea,
>> exactly, that makes it so fine, and certainly not its exploration of 
>> tonal
>> qualities caught up in manipulations of formal dynamics: it's the 
>> overall
>> effect (and the decision) of that hanging. Here's the key, for me: it's
>> not just wistful (Hass, like a great many 20th-century poets of much
>> less skill, can be accused of slipping more wist into his poems than is
>> quite decorous); it's more a sign of desperation and outrage, hung 
>> out to
>> bleed. So when I think of Levine, Crane, and Lorca, I think: it's 
>> great that
>> he wrote that poem about his betters. And when I think of Hass, 
>> Vallejo, and
>> Mandelstam, I think: they constitute a very interesting set, made 
>> available
>> by Hass's insight and skill.
>> l suspect he made use of haiku, too.  But however effective you do a
>> good job of showing he was, he wasn't "significant" in my special
>> sense.
>>
>> best, Bob
>> I want to throw the above into my blog entry for today, Jerry.
>> Please let me know if you don't want what you've written there
>> and I'll keep it off.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu  <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> -- 
> Jerry McGuire
> Dept. of English
> University of Louisiana at Lafayette
> Lafayette LA 70506
> jlm8047 at louisiana.edu  <mailto:jlm8047 at louisiana.edu>
> 337-482-5478
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506
jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
337-482-5478

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Aug 20 17:50:42 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 17:50:42 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman and Hass and McGuire
In-Reply-To: <5032AA0D.1060203@louisiana.edu>
References: <8CF4873208717D2-E30-56FF2@Webmail-d110.sysops.aol.com><4B0AC9A9D2584025ADD5F58F702CC0BD@BobHP><502AD638.7060100@loui
	siana.edu><0B816F510DCC409F94F94A834DA0A559@BobHP><502BEB03.3040503@louisiana.edu><0313980266A14D0A93856A6B57B2548A@BobHP><502F
	B271.5020505@louisiana.edu><1345491112.21598.YahooMailNeo@web162502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<5032AA0D.1060203@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <25A8E6D75BC14817A8E37F810DEC365C@BobHP>



From: Jerry McGuire 
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 5:20 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Grumman and Hass and McGuire

Really? With no disrespect at all intended towards Bob (or you), there's also a claim out there that the worst are full of passionate intensity. If that's even partly true--and it surely is--I can't see that passion is so rare; and (more seriously) poets tend to be passionate about their distinctive quirks, tropes, and cubby- and spiderholes. Passion isn't an excuse for anything, though it's often a reasonable explanation: but again, explanation isn't justification, legitimation, or moral validation. It's just explanation. 

Best,

Jerry

Would Yeats agree that equally bad was the fact (implied) that the best were not full of passionate intensity?  To me, it?s one more excellence that can be horrendously misused.  As for me, I like intense; not sure about passionate.
--Bob
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From jforjames at aol.com  Mon Aug 20 19:38:38 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 19:38:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry publishing in the post-publisher world
Message-ID: <8CF4D440EB894DD-1778-4D9BB@webmail-m063.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2012/08/19/poetry-publishing-in-the-post-publisher-world/
Poetry publishing in the post-publisher world


Which is all rather a shame, as?from an economic perspective?the self-publishing print-on-demand model lends itself more favorably to poetry than perhaps any other field of writing. Print-on-demand is perfect for small runs and slim volumes comprising mainly text. A 40-page paperback from LightningSource, the print-on-demand wing of book industry giant Ingram, will run the self-publisher just $1.48. Up the page count to 100 and the cost is a mere $2.30. Given a $10.00 cover price and a 50% catalog discount, the self-publishing poet could easily clear two bucks for every copy sold?and all with setup fees of, at worst, a few hundred dollars.


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From junction at earthlink.net  Mon Aug 20 20:11:35 2012
From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:11:35 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry publishing in the post-publisher world
Message-ID: <27412302.1345507895876.JavaMail.root@mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From jforjames at aol.com  Mon Aug 20 20:19:21 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:19:21 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets and copyright
In-Reply-To: <CAAy7y5RV3j-8GoOWWwBqgiCtADv7DWjDNOmA87Qemxq8GftTYw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <DC4CEA52-06FE-4CF4-A984-EFE284A60C24@mikesnider.org>
	<CAAy7y5RV3j-8GoOWWwBqgiCtADv7DWjDNOmA87Qemxq8GftTYw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CF4D49BEDA1C7E-16FC-4E383@webmail-m031.sysops.aol.com>


In poetry it's probably only a dozen or so poets (or their estates) who can afford (the lawyers) necessary to enforce their copyrights. Some of poets who have the means to enforce their rights had a period in their the life when probably their attitude was, "Take my poem...please!" (To steal & tweak the dead comic Henny Youngman's old gag line.) Like many laws, copyright survives because enough people of good will support it, and are willing to pay reasonable amounts for rights, even though they know they could use great swaths of such writing without securing the rights and with little/nil legal repercussion. 


I ran across this site recently and I'm pretty sure it's an outlaw...
http://intertwingled.net/poets/  


Finnegan


-----Original Message-----
From: Tad Richards <theoldmole at gmail.com>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Mon, Aug 20, 2012 11:02 am
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poets and copyright


If people only read poetry, the law of supply and demand would be much different, and poets would be making the big bucks.

On Monday, August 20, 2012, Michael Snider  wrote:



http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2012/aug/14/does-copyright-matter/


All text below except that between square brackets is from the article. I may be breaking copyright law by quoting so much.
--------------



[with no copywrite] How would this situation change the way a writer works? Would it make sense now to write the thriller, literary or otherwise, that was once packaged and sold to entertain and to earn? Would I really want to write all those pages, if there wasn?t even the chance of an income? 
...
unable to police their copyright on CDs, musicians nevertheless go on writing songs and can enjoy the feedback and hopefully some income from performing them to an appreciative public; if the songs happen to catch on through the internet then the musicians can enjoy notoriety and expect bigger concerts, if not a huge income from selling albums. But there is no such performative context for the prose thriller, or even the great American novel.
...
In short, you wouldn?t launch blindly into a major novel, as so many young writers do, simply because novels are the form that command attention and promise an income.
...
Copyright, we see, is not essentially driven by notions of justice or theories of ownership, but by a certain culture?s attachment to a certain literary form. If people only read poetry, which you can never stop poets producing even when you pay them nothing at all, then the law of copyright would disappear in a trice.

www.mikesnider.org

 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

 
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From jforjames at aol.com  Mon Aug 20 20:26:54 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:26:54 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry publishing in the post-publisher world
In-Reply-To: <27412302.1345507895876.JavaMail.root@mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <27412302.1345507895876.JavaMail.root@mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <8CF4D4ACC32C345-16FC-4E406@webmail-m031.sysops.aol.com>


Mark,
The question is is that much different than the current state of affairs? WAG, but 99 out of 100 printed books of poetry probably find their way directly into the ambit of the author's existing points of contact. The other small percentage probably came to book by happenstance. Which maybe would happen in either model.
Finnegan



-----Original Message-----
From: junction <junction at earthlink.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Mon, Aug 20, 2012 8:19 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry publishing in the post-publisher world


The problem, natch, is that while when everyone can publish a truly democratic field is created the act of publishing becomes meaningless. In that state only gift and hearsay gather a small band of readers. In effect, one speaks only to those who already know whatever it is one has to offer.

-----Original Message-----
From: jforjames at aol.com
Sent: Aug 20, 2012 7:38 PM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry publishing in the post-publisher world


http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2012/08/19/poetry-publishing-in-the-post-publisher-world/
Poetry publishing in the post-publisher world


Which is all rather a shame, as?from an economic perspective?the self-publishing print-on-demand model lends itself more favorably to poetry than perhaps any other field of writing. Print-on-demand is perfect for small runs and slim volumes comprising mainly text. A 40-page paperback from LightningSource, the print-on-demand wing of book industry giant Ingram, will run the self-publisher just $1.48. Up the page count to 100 and the cost is a mere $2.30. Given a $10.00 cover price and a 50% catalog discount, the self-publishing poet could easily clear two bucks for every copy sold?and all with setup fees of, at worst, a few hundred dollars.



 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

 

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From halvard at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 21:07:57 2012
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:07:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry publishing in the post-publisher world
In-Reply-To: <8CF4D440EB894DD-1778-4D9BB@webmail-m063.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CF4D440EB894DD-1778-4D9BB@webmail-m063.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CANrCfqHWDOktsTLMdg8MZz1rkXbDC1ksXWzMQ_hg1tfZgv7rBA@mail.gmail.com>

Publish it oneself online, where people can actually find and read it,
and it would cost one $0.00.


Mastering this universe one Higgs boson at a time.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com

On Barcelona <http://onbarcelona.blogspot.com/> (submissions sought; email
to my address above)
Truck: http://halvard-johnson.blogspot.mx/
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
Remains To Be Seen <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>*, Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. II) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>,** Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. III) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Sonnets
from the Basque & Other Poems <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>
*, *Mainly Black <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Obras
P?blicas <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **The Perfection
of Mozart's Third Eye and Other
Sonnets<http://www.scribd.com/doc/27039868/Halvard-Johnson-THE-PERFECTION-OF-MOZART-S-THIRD-EYE-Other-Sonnets>
; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of
Clones<http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Entrance-Clones-Halvard-Johnson/dp/0965404390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283182804&sr=8-1>
; **Tango Bouquet <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **Theory
of Harmony<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall04/theory1.pdf>
; **Rapsodie espagnole<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/rapsodi.pdf>
; **Guide to the Tokyo
Subway<http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Tokyo-Subway-Other-Poems/dp/0971487316/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283183153&sr=1-3>
; **The Sonnet Project<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/hsonnet.pdf>
; **G(e)nome <http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall03/genome.pdf>; **Winter
Journey <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.winter.html>;
**Eclipse<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.eclipse.html>
; **The Dance of the Red Swan <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.dance.html>
; **Transparencies & Projections<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.transp.html>
*




On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 6:38 PM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:

>
> http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2012/08/19/poetry-publishing-in-the-post-publisher-world/
> Poetry publishing in the post-publisher world
>
>  Which is all rather a shame, as?from an economic perspective?the
> self-publishing print-on-demand model lends itself more favorably to poetry
> than perhaps any other field of writing. Print-on-demand is perfect for
> small runs and slim volumes comprising mainly text. A 40-page paperback
> from LightningSource, the print-on-demand wing of book industry giant
> Ingram, will run the self-publisher just $1.48. Up the page count to 100
> and the cost is a mere $2.30. Given a $10.00 cover price and a 50% catalog
> discount, the self-publishing poet could easily clear two bucks for every
> copy sold?and all with setup fees of, at worst, a few hundred dollars.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From halvard at gmail.com  Mon Aug 20 21:08:46 2012
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 20:08:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry publishing in the post-publisher world
In-Reply-To: <27412302.1345507895876.JavaMail.root@mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <27412302.1345507895876.JavaMail.root@mswamui-swiss.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CANrCfqGds-jPg5ocm5BkjNyTPb2qfkMNeOsS5in1+oSWXLkF8A@mail.gmail.com>

So untrue.


Mastering this universe one Higgs boson at a time.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com

On Barcelona <http://onbarcelona.blogspot.com/> (submissions sought; email
to my address above)
Truck: http://halvard-johnson.blogspot.mx/
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
Remains To Be Seen <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>*, Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. II) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>,** Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. III) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Sonnets
from the Basque & Other Poems <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>
*, *Mainly Black <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Obras
P?blicas <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **The Perfection
of Mozart's Third Eye and Other
Sonnets<http://www.scribd.com/doc/27039868/Halvard-Johnson-THE-PERFECTION-OF-MOZART-S-THIRD-EYE-Other-Sonnets>
; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of
Clones<http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Entrance-Clones-Halvard-Johnson/dp/0965404390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283182804&sr=8-1>
; **Tango Bouquet <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **Theory
of Harmony<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall04/theory1.pdf>
; **Rapsodie espagnole<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/rapsodi.pdf>
; **Guide to the Tokyo
Subway<http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Tokyo-Subway-Other-Poems/dp/0971487316/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283183153&sr=1-3>
; **The Sonnet Project<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/hsonnet.pdf>
; **G(e)nome <http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall03/genome.pdf>; **Winter
Journey <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.winter.html>;
**Eclipse<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.eclipse.html>
; **The Dance of the Red Swan <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.dance.html>
; **Transparencies & Projections<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.transp.html>
*




On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 7:11 PM, <junction at earthlink.net> wrote:

> The problem, natch, is that while when everyone can publish a truly
> democratic field is created the act of publishing becomes meaningless. In
> that state only gift and hearsay gather a small band of readers. In effect,
> one speaks only to those who already know whatever it is one has to offer.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jforjames at aol.com
> Sent: Aug 20, 2012 7:38 PM
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry publishing in the post-publisher world
>
>
> http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2012/08/19/poetry-publishing-in-the-post-publisher-world/
> Poetry publishing in the post-publisher world
>
>  Which is all rather a shame, as?from an economic perspective?the
> self-publishing print-on-demand model lends itself more favorably to poetry
> than perhaps any other field of writing. Print-on-demand is perfect for
> small runs and slim volumes comprising mainly text. A 40-page paperback
> from LightningSource, the print-on-demand wing of book industry giant
> Ingram, will run the self-publisher just $1.48. Up the page count to 100
> and the cost is a mere $2.30. Given a $10.00 cover price and a 50% catalog
> discount, the self-publishing poet could easily clear two bucks for every
> copy sold?and all with setup fees of, at worst, a few hundred dollars.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From junction at earthlink.net  Mon Aug 20 21:29:40 2012
From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net)
Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2012 21:29:40 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry publishing in the post-publisher world
Message-ID: <18729845.1345512580493.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 13:50:41 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 19:50:41 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry publishing in the post-publisher world
In-Reply-To: <8CF4D440EB894DD-1778-4D9BB@webmail-m063.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CF4D440EB894DD-1778-4D9BB@webmail-m063.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyQTBhhA1c2TDq1OO6OJ7BGmtX9yuAGi-LE3nzsv1Q+b7Q@mail.gmail.com>

Pasting from the article (bold in the original text):
*
*
*It?s an open secret that people don?t buy poetry. *Some small exception is
made for those poets humorous, famous, or dead enough, but by and large the
rule holds true. There is not a large publisher in America for which
contemporary, literary poetry is an important commercial concern.

On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 1:38 AM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:

>
> http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2012/08/19/poetry-publishing-in-the-post-publisher-world/
> Poetry publishing in the post-publisher world
>
>  Which is all rather a shame, as?from an economic perspective?the
> self-publishing print-on-demand model lends itself more favorably to poetry
> than perhaps any other field of writing. Print-on-demand is perfect for
> small runs and slim volumes comprising mainly text. A 40-page paperback
> from LightningSource, the print-on-demand wing of book industry giant
> Ingram, will run the self-publisher just $1.48. Up the page count to 100
> and the cost is a mere $2.30. Given a $10.00 cover price and a 50% catalog
> discount, the self-publishing poet could easily clear two bucks for every
> copy sold?and all with setup fees of, at worst, a few hundred dollars.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From halvard at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 14:01:52 2012
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 13:01:52 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry publishing in the post-publisher world
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsyQTBhhA1c2TDq1OO6OJ7BGmtX9yuAGi-LE3nzsv1Q+b7Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CF4D440EB894DD-1778-4D9BB@webmail-m063.sysops.aol.com>
	<CA+9UsyQTBhhA1c2TDq1OO6OJ7BGmtX9yuAGi-LE3nzsv1Q+b7Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANrCfqFddtQsSODShOtL1_dgecV67C3Fd4TDCWmHX83m1j3gOA@mail.gmail.com>

If that's a sample, I'm glad I took a nap instead of reading it.


Mastering this universe one Higgs boson at a time.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com

On Barcelona <http://onbarcelona.blogspot.com/> (submissions sought; email
to my address above)
Truck: http://halvard-johnson.blogspot.mx/
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
Remains To Be Seen <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>*, Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. II) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>,** Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. III) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Sonnets
from the Basque & Other Poems <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>
*, *Mainly Black <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Obras
P?blicas <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **The Perfection
of Mozart's Third Eye and Other
Sonnets<http://www.scribd.com/doc/27039868/Halvard-Johnson-THE-PERFECTION-OF-MOZART-S-THIRD-EYE-Other-Sonnets>
; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of
Clones<http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Entrance-Clones-Halvard-Johnson/dp/0965404390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283182804&sr=8-1>
; **Tango Bouquet <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **Theory
of Harmony<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall04/theory1.pdf>
; **Rapsodie espagnole<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/rapsodi.pdf>
; **Guide to the Tokyo
Subway<http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Tokyo-Subway-Other-Poems/dp/0971487316/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283183153&sr=1-3>
; **The Sonnet Project<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/hsonnet.pdf>
; **G(e)nome <http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall03/genome.pdf>; **Winter
Journey <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.winter.html>;
**Eclipse<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.eclipse.html>
; **The Dance of the Red Swan <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.dance.html>
; **Transparencies & Projections<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.transp.html>
*




On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com
> wrote:

> Pasting from the article (bold in the original text):
> *
> *
> *It?s an open secret that people don?t buy poetry. *Some small exception
> is made for those poets humorous, famous, or dead enough, but by and large
> the rule holds true. There is not a large publisher in America for which
> contemporary, literary poetry is an important commercial concern.
>
> On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 1:38 AM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2012/08/19/poetry-publishing-in-the-post-publisher-world/
>> Poetry publishing in the post-publisher world
>>
>>  Which is all rather a shame, as?from an economic perspective?the
>> self-publishing print-on-demand model lends itself more favorably to poetry
>> than perhaps any other field of writing. Print-on-demand is perfect for
>> small runs and slim volumes comprising mainly text. A 40-page paperback
>> from LightningSource, the print-on-demand wing of book industry giant
>> Ingram, will run the self-publisher just $1.48. Up the page count to 100
>> and the cost is a mere $2.30. Given a $10.00 cover price and a 50% catalog
>> discount, the self-publishing poet could easily clear two bucks for every
>> copy sold?and all with setup fees of, at worst, a few hundred dollars.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 14:26:19 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 20:26:19 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry publishing in the post-publisher world
In-Reply-To: <CANrCfqFddtQsSODShOtL1_dgecV67C3Fd4TDCWmHX83m1j3gOA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CF4D440EB894DD-1778-4D9BB@webmail-m063.sysops.aol.com>
	<CA+9UsyQTBhhA1c2TDq1OO6OJ7BGmtX9yuAGi-LE3nzsv1Q+b7Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANrCfqFddtQsSODShOtL1_dgecV67C3Fd4TDCWmHX83m1j3gOA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyRP+_qgLWN=eB2LnAdoMOR7J-4G4Du=jTKNskKRUbeEMg@mail.gmail.com>

nahhh Hal, it is the pattern of our nightmares


On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 8:01 PM, Halvard Johnson <halvard at gmail.com> wrote:

> If that's a sample, I'm glad I took a nap instead of reading it.
>
>
> Mastering this universe one Higgs boson at a time.
>
> Hal
>
> Halvard Johnson
> ================
>
> halvard at gmail.com
>
> On Barcelona <http://onbarcelona.blogspot.com/> (submissions sought;
> email to my address above)
> Truck: http://halvard-johnson.blogspot.mx/
> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
> http://www.hamiltonstone.org
>  <http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
> https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/
>  <http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
> Remains To Be Seen <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>*, Remains
> To Be Seen (Vol. II) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>,** Remains
> To Be Seen (Vol. III) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Sonnets
> from the Basque & Other Poems<https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>
> *, *Mainly Black <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Obras
> P?blicas <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **The Perfection
> of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets<http://www.scribd.com/doc/27039868/Halvard-Johnson-THE-PERFECTION-OF-MOZART-S-THIRD-EYE-Other-Sonnets>
> ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones<http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Entrance-Clones-Halvard-Johnson/dp/0965404390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283182804&sr=8-1>
> ; **Tango Bouquet <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **Theory
> of Harmony<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall04/theory1.pdf>
> ; **Rapsodie espagnole<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/rapsodi.pdf>
> ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway<http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Tokyo-Subway-Other-Poems/dp/0971487316/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283183153&sr=1-3>
> ; **The Sonnet Project<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/hsonnet.pdf>
> ; **G(e)nome <http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall03/genome.pdf>; **Winter
> Journey <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.winter.html>; **Eclipse<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.eclipse.html>
> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.dance.html>
> ; **Transparencies & Projections<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.transp.html>
> *
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 12:50 PM, Anny Ballardini <
> anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Pasting from the article (bold in the original text):
>> *
>> *
>> *It?s an open secret that people don?t buy poetry. *Some small exception
>> is made for those poets humorous, famous, or dead enough, but by and large
>> the rule holds true. There is not a large publisher in America for which
>> contemporary, literary poetry is an important commercial concern.
>>
>> On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 1:38 AM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> http://www.scholarsandrogues.com/2012/08/19/poetry-publishing-in-the-post-publisher-world/
>>> Poetry publishing in the post-publisher world
>>>
>>>  Which is all rather a shame, as?from an economic perspective?the
>>> self-publishing print-on-demand model lends itself more favorably to poetry
>>> than perhaps any other field of writing. Print-on-demand is perfect for
>>> small runs and slim volumes comprising mainly text. A 40-page paperback
>>> from LightningSource, the print-on-demand wing of book industry giant
>>> Ingram, will run the self-publisher just $1.48. Up the page count to 100
>>> and the cost is a mere $2.30. Given a $10.00 cover price and a 50% catalog
>>> discount, the self-publishing poet could easily clear two bucks for every
>>> copy sold?and all with setup fees of, at worst, a few hundred dollars.
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Anny Ballardini
>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
>> star!
>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>
>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>> Giovenale
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 21 15:01:17 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 12:01:17 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman and Hass and McGuire
In-Reply-To: <25A8E6D75BC14817A8E37F810DEC365C@BobHP>
References: <8CF4873208717D2-E30-56FF2@Webmail-d110.sysops.aol.com><4B0AC9A9D2584025ADD5F58F702CC0BD@BobHP><502AD638.7060100@loui
	siana.edu><0B816F510DCC409F94F94A834DA0A559@BobHP><502BEB03.3040503@louisiana.edu><0313980266A14D0A93856A6B57B2548A@BobHP><502F
	B271.5020505@louisiana.edu><1345491112.21598.YahooMailNeo@web162502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<5032AA0D.1060203@louisiana.edu>
	<25A8E6D75BC14817A8E37F810DEC365C@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1345575677.78474.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Yeats was speaking?about the political climate. & there, one must beware of passion. Especially since the passionate are usually blessed with complete ignorance. 
?
poets tend to be passionate about their distinctive quirks, tropes, and cubby- and spiderholes
?
But I can't argue with the above comment. 


________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 5:50 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Grumman and Hass and McGuire





From: Jerry McGuire 
Sent: Monday, August 20, 2012 5:20 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Grumman and Hass and McGuire
Really? With no disrespect at all intended towards Bob (or you), there's also a claim out there that the worst are full of passionate intensity. If that's even partly true--and it surely is--I can't see that passion is so rare; and (more seriously) poets tend to be passionate about their distinctive quirks, tropes, and cubby- and spiderholes. Passion isn't an excuse for anything, though it's often a reasonable explanation: but again, explanation isn't justification, legitimation, or moral validation. It's just explanation. 

Best,

Jerry

Would Yeats agree that equally bad was the fact (implied) that the best were not full of passionate intensity?? To me, it?s one more excellence that can be horrendously misused.? As for me, I like intense; not sure about passionate.

--Bob
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From halvard at gmail.com  Tue Aug 21 15:19:57 2012
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 14:19:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman and Hass and McGuire
In-Reply-To: <1345491112.21598.YahooMailNeo@web162502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <8CF4873208717D2-E30-56FF2@Webmail-d110.sysops.aol.com>
	<4B0AC9A9D2584025ADD5F58F702CC0BD@BobHP>
	<0B816F510DCC409F94F94A834DA0A559@BobHP>
	<502BEB03.3040503@louisiana.edu>
	<0313980266A14D0A93856A6B57B2548A@BobHP>
	<502FB271.5020505@louisiana.edu>
	<1345491112.21598.YahooMailNeo@web162502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CANrCfqHKD9qYUiRxCJisvTi7xP3P0eMmk6Tr1tNd-Gtxy4d-4g@mail.gmail.com>

Not an axe; more like a hobbyhorse.



Mastering this universe one Higgs boson at a time.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com

On Barcelona <http://onbarcelona.blogspot.com/> (submissions sought; email
to my address above)
Truck: http://halvard-johnson.blogspot.mx/
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
Remains To Be Seen <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>*, Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. II) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>,** Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. III) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Sonnets
from the Basque & Other Poems <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>
*, *Mainly Black <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Obras
P?blicas <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **The Perfection
of Mozart's Third Eye and Other
Sonnets<http://www.scribd.com/doc/27039868/Halvard-Johnson-THE-PERFECTION-OF-MOZART-S-THIRD-EYE-Other-Sonnets>
; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of
Clones<http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Entrance-Clones-Halvard-Johnson/dp/0965404390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283182804&sr=8-1>
; **Tango Bouquet <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **Theory
of Harmony<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall04/theory1.pdf>
; **Rapsodie espagnole<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/rapsodi.pdf>
; **Guide to the Tokyo
Subway<http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Tokyo-Subway-Other-Poems/dp/0971487316/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283183153&sr=1-3>
; **The Sonnet Project<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/hsonnet.pdf>
; **G(e)nome <http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall03/genome.pdf>; **Winter
Journey <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.winter.html>;
**Eclipse<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.eclipse.html>
; **The Dance of the Red Swan <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.dance.html>
; **Transparencies & Projections<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.transp.html>
*




On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 2:31 PM, stephen russell <
poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Perhaps it?s wrong of me to be bothered by a mainstream critic?s
> being ignorant of or indifferent to the only significant thing I believe
> has happened in American poetry over the past century, the
> discovery and increasingly interesting use of (relatively) new
> techniques, but I am.
>
> Bob has that axe to grind. & that involves passion. It's a rare quality.
>
>
>   ------------------------------
> *From:* Jerry McGuire <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu>
> *To:* NewPoetry List <new-poetry at charlemagne.cddc.vt.edu>
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 18, 2012 11:19 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Grumman and Hass and McGuire
>
>  Bob, you're welcome to re-post anything you want.
>
> By "ensemble" I simply mean a bunch of anything (in this case,
> aesthetic/poetic strategies, tactics, tropes, etc.) taken as a set or (ad
> hoc) group.
>
> And by the way, Bob, I've only met Hass once, in the context of a
> three-day stint he did at Buffalo (years after he taught there); he seemed
> wonderfully open and generous in his approach to influences and styles, and
> at the same time tough-minded. This was shortly after he'd published
> _Praise_. I've always thought that his work took a jump forward in that
> (his second, I think) book, because he adopted a long- (or longer-) line
> approach that better accommodated his dispositions of breath and thought
> than the more Williamsesque writing of his _Field Work_ (which I believe
> won the Yale Younger Poets prize).
>
> Best,
>
> Jerry
>
>
>  On 8/18/2012 9:29 AM, bob grumman wrote:
>
>  On 8/15/2012 7:42 AM, bob grumman wrote:
>
> Perhaps it?s wrong of me to be bothered by a mainstream critic?s
> being ignorant of or indifferent to the only significant thing I believe
> has happened in American poetry over the past century, the
> discovery and increasingly interesting use of (relatively) new
> techniques, but I am.
>
>  *From:* Jerry McGuire <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu>
>  *Sent:* Wednesday, August 15, 2012 2:31 PM
> *To:* NewPoetry List <new-poetry at charlemagne.cddc.vt.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Hass' What Light Can Do: Essays on
> Art,Imagination and the Natural World
>
> Of course it's not "wrong," Bob--by all means, be bothered.
>
>  I still don?t have time for you, Jerry, but I?m going to reply, anyway!
> (Feel honored.)
>
>  Me, I'm inclined to write my own manifesto,
> "On Indifference" (let's make it a book-length piece,
>  *On Indifference and Other Life-Affirming Virtues*),
>
>  An individual can?t avoid indifference about some things (like my
> indifference to the squabbles
>  of the republicrats), but no field?s establishment (and every field has
> one) should be indifferent
>  about something like visual poetry that a sizable number of people in
> its field think is
>  important. It took me a long time to accept language poetry (genuine
> language poetry such
>  as Clark Coolidge?s) as anything but nonsense (although not as long as
> it took me earlier to
>  accept free verse?although I instantly accepted Cummings?s visual poetry
> very early when
>  shown what it was doing), but I finally did, because so many people
> who seemed intelligent
>  to me were enthusiastic about it.  Not that I can accept every poet?s
> work that others
>  find terrific, but I try to.  I?m still working on Gertrude Stein?s.
>
>  taking the position that there are always people eager to pursue
> possibilities at the margins
>  (or borders, or frontiers--whatever suits one's fantasies) of any
> ensemble of creative forms,
>  while others make the best of their own engagement with the history of
> that ensemble
>  (including its hidden history, perhaps),
>
>  Some even do both!  At the same time!  You?d never know it from reading
> any of
>  the books of criticism Finnegan tells us about.
>
>  and that there's nothing wrong with either exploration of one's
> energies. It would be important to note,
>  in such a screed, that there are huge loads of crap deposited both at
> the margins and in the center.
>
>  Definitely.
>
>  (If I did the book-length version, I'd certainly want to include a
> chapter [titled "One's Ceiling is
>  Another's Floor"?] about how spatial descriptions of "ensembles" is a
> stupid way to go about
>  describing the antics of artists. My bad.)
>
>  Not sure what you mean by ?ensembles.?
>
>  And there, the manifesto's done, and I, too, lack a contract to publish
> it.
>   l suspect you?d have any easier time getting one (from a ?real?
> publisher)
>  than I would for any book of mine.  I was just reading about Brad Thor,
>  a thriller writer, who was sitting next to a woman on a plane with
>  whom he got talking literature.  Toward the end of the flight, he
> mentioned
>  he was thinking about writing a novel.  She told him she was a sales
>  representative of Simon and Schuster, and she?d like to read his
>  manuscript when he was done with it.  He did send it to her and it
>  got published by Simon & Schuster, and now he?s making big bucks.
>  I can just see you or me having a conversation with the sales rep. . . .
>
>  Oh, and the book I spoke of hoping to write on the last hundred years
>  or so of American poetry would not be a manifesto.  The changes I
>  want are very limited: only that the Poetry Establishment *notice* my
> kind
>  of poetry?even if they trash it.  And that a poet should do his best to
>  master *every* kind of poetry he can during a *lengthy* apprenticeship;
> then
>  focus on his favorite kind, but keep in touch with as many of the other
>  kinds as he can.  Too many ?advanced? poets are as foolishly indifferent
>  to traditional poetry, particularly formal verse, as traditional poets
> are to
>  visual poetry and the like.
>
>  I thought I had a third demand of the poetry world, but can?t think of
> it now.
>
>  As to "the only significant thing" (and thank goodness for that "I
> believe,"
>  Bob, which feels refreshingly humane and sensible), you've made it
> fairly
>  broad, haven't you, by describing it as "the discovery and increasingly
>  interesting use of (relatively) new techniques"? So whatever else you
> could
>  say about really good writing (of course, my "good" is up for grabs, as
> much
>  as your "interesting") that is (ostensibly) indifferent to marginal
> experimentation,
>  you couldn't claim it was "significant" in any, uh, significant way?
> Well, that's
>  a mouthful, whether you digest it or spit it out.
>
>  You have me there, Jerry.  But it?s as much a problem with the language
> as
>  with me.  I was bringing up my standard belief in the difference I find
>  between ?effective? poems and ?important? poems.  I need different
>  words.  My point is simply that even great poems as the one by Hass
>  you mention may be do not significantly enlarge the field of poetry
>  because they add nothing significantly new to it.
> They will add a new
>  outlook and style, since every poet has a unique
> outlook and style,
>  and perhaps new subject matter.  But new subject
> just doesn?t seem
>  significant to me.  One painter is the first to depict
> some new species
>  of butterfly, so what?  Or a novelist is first to
> tell us what the life of
>  an Australian
> aborigine juggler is like.  Ditto.
>
>  I think the best examples of what I mean are in classical music: I think
>  a case could be made for the view that
> Brahms?s symphonies equal in
>  effectiveness to Beethoven?s, but
> Beethoven?s were far more important
>  than Brahms?s.  I prefer Richard
> Straus?s *Der Rosenkavalier* to any of
>  Wagner?s operas (I think) but
> Wagner?s operas are unquestionably more
>  important in the way I?m
> speaking of than Straus?s.  Wagner and
>  Beethoven advance their art,
> Brahms and Straus did not, they ?merely?
>  contributed brilliantly to it.
>
>  I?ll let you know when I have the right two words or phrases needed
>  to distinguish the two kinds of artists.
>
> And by the way, just as Philip Levine might be best positioned in relation
> to his little fantasy about Lorca meeting Hart Crane in New York, Hass
> is most ilmpressive for me when I think of his work as positioned relative
> to his beautiful poem about Mandelstam and Vallejo, "Rusia en 1931."
> (I can't find it online--it's in _Human Wishes_ [and, since I don't own
> *Human Wishes*, somewhere else as well--sorry that I can't track it down
> right now.]) It's full of kinds of emotion most writers are too careful to
> allow into their poems (someone would make a snotty crack about it in
> any graduate workshop), making it emerge from a subtle drift among
> prose statement, deep image, and a kind of journalistic impulse. It
> positions
> itself between ardent political aspirations (Vallejo) and the brutal
> annihilation
> of a unique imagination by a related political ardency (Mandelstam). And
> it
> doesn't reduce itself to any answer of convenience: it hangs you there,
> caught among its ideas and forms and characterizations. It's not the idea,
> exactly, that makes it so fine, and certainly not its exploration of tonal
> qualities caught up in manipulations of formal dynamics: it's the overall
> effect (and the decision) of that hanging. Here's the key, for me: it's
> not just wistful (Hass, like a great many 20th-century poets of much
> less skill, can be accused of slipping more wist into his poems than is
> quite decorous); it's more a sign of desperation and outrage, hung out to
> bleed. So when I think of Levine, Crane, and Lorca, I think: it's great
> that
> he wrote that poem about his betters. And when I think of Hass, Vallejo,
> and
> Mandelstam, I think: they constitute a very interesting set, made
> available
> by Hass's insight and skill.
>
> l suspect he made use of haiku, too.  But however effective you do a
> good job of showing he was, he wasn?t ?significant? in my special
> sense.
>
> best, Bob
>  I want to throw the above into my blog entry for today, Jerry.
> Please let me know if you don?t want what you?ve written there
> and I?ll keep it off.
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> --
> Jerry McGuire
> Dept. of English
> University of Louisiana at Lafayette
> Lafayette LA 70506jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
> 337-482-5478
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Aug 21 15:29:14 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 15:29:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman and Hass and McGuire
In-Reply-To: <1345575677.78474.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <8CF4873208717D2-E30-56FF2@Webmail-d110.sysops.aol.com><4B0AC9A9D2584025ADD5F58F702CC0BD@BobHP><502AD638.7060100@loui
	siana.edu><0B816F510DCC409F94F94A834DA0A559@BobHP><502BEB03.3040503@louisiana.edu><0313980266A14D0A93856A6B57B2548A@BobHP><502F
	B271.5020505@louisiana.edu><1345491112.21598.YahooMailNeo@web162502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><5032AA0D.1060203@louisiana.edu><25A8E6D
	75BC14817A8E37F810DEC365C@BobHP>
	<1345575677.78474.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <379DA2462CBE414D9D26A5E861C40F68@BobHP>

Yeats was speaking about the political climate. & there, one must beware of passion. Especially since the passionate are usually blessed with complete ignorance. 

poets tend to be passionate about their distinctive quirks, tropes, and cubby- and spiderholes

But I can't argue with the above comment. 

I?m a narcissistic (as the Grumman expert here {the negative one; I have a positive
one, too!], and we all know who she is, will attest) so I take this personuckly!  True, 
there?s a ?tend? in there.  And I?m pretty sure Stephen was not referring to me.
Nonetheless, I will state for the record that I tend to get passionate or intense 
or highly wacko about everything from my tennis game to the fact that we don?t 
have two words that distinguish a circle that is really only a circle?s circumference 
from a circle that is really a circle?s area. I will add that otherstream poetry is 
no cubby hole, but that my passionateness about it is really a passionateness 
for the health of not just poetry but all the arts, and the Universe!

Urp.

--Bob

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Aug 21 15:30:44 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 15:30:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman and Hass and McGuire
In-Reply-To: <1345575677.78474.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <8CF4873208717D2-E30-56FF2@Webmail-d110.sysops.aol.com><4B0AC9A9D2584025ADD5F58F702CC0BD@BobHP><502AD638.7060100@loui
	siana.edu><0B816F510DCC409F94F94A834DA0A559@BobHP><502BEB03.3040503@louisiana.edu><0313980266A14D0A93856A6B57B2548A@BobHP><502F
	B271.5020505@louisiana.edu><1345491112.21598.YahooMailNeo@web162502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><5032AA0D.1060203@louisiana.edu><25A8E6D
	75BC14817A8E37F810DEC365C@BobHP>
	<1345575677.78474.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <169BC2C3B9CA4D3C9F9190FE60F924D3@BobHP>

Yeats was speaking about the political climate. & there, one must beware of passion. Especially since the passionate are usually blessed with complete ignorance. 

poets tend to be passionate about their distinctive quirks, tropes, and cubby- and spiderholes

But I can't argue with the above comment.

I would add that passionlessness is also a valuable trait?if
it?s not one?s only trait.

--Bob

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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 21 15:41:36 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Tue, 21 Aug 2012 12:41:36 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Grumman and Hass and McGuire
In-Reply-To: <379DA2462CBE414D9D26A5E861C40F68@BobHP>
References: <8CF4873208717D2-E30-56FF2@Webmail-d110.sysops.aol.com><4B0AC9A9D2584025ADD5F58F702CC0BD@BobHP><502AD638.7060100@loui
	siana.edu><0B816F510DCC409F94F94A834DA0A559@BobHP><502BEB03.3040503@louisiana.edu><0313980266A14D0A93856A6B57B2548A@BobHP><502F
	B271.5020505@louisiana.edu><1345491112.21598.YahooMailNeo@web162502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><5032AA0D.1060203@louisiana.edu><25A8E6D
	75BC14817A8E37F810DEC365C@BobHP>
	<1345575677.78474.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<379DA2462CBE414D9D26A5E861C40F68@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1345578096.94974.YahooMailNeo@web162502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

The poetry establishment doesn't appreciate superheroes. Wimps ...



________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2012 3:29 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Grumman and Hass and McGuire


Yeats was speaking about the political climate. & there, one must beware of passion. Especially since the passionate are usually blessed with complete ignorance. 
?
poets tend to be passionate about their distinctive quirks, tropes, and cubby- and spiderholes
?
But I can't argue with the above comment. 
?
I?m a narcissistic (as the Grumman expert here {the negative one; I have a positive
one, too!], and we all know who she is, will attest) so I take this personuckly!? True, 
there?s a ?tend? in there.? And I?m pretty sure Stephen was not referring to me.
Nonetheless, I will state for the record that I tend to get passionate or intense 
or highly wacko about everything from my tennis game to the fact that we don?t 
have two words that distinguish a circle that is really only a circle?s circumference 
from a circle that is really a circle?s area. I will add that otherstream poetry is 
no cubby hole, but that my passionateness about it is really a passionateness 
for the health of not just poetry but all the arts, and the Universe!
?
Urp.
?
--Bob
?
?
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From jforjames at aol.com  Wed Aug 22 08:44:31 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 08:44:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
Message-ID: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>

I?ve heard it said that ?architecture is the art of wasting space beautifully?. I don?t know who to attribute that remark to; though it may be a misquote of something Philip Johnson once said. In any case, it?s a wry remark and it makes me think that ?Poetry is art of wasting silence (or its material manifestation: the blank page) 
beautifully."


http://ursprache.blogspot.com





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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Aug 22 08:58:09 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 08:58:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>

I?ve heard it said that ?architecture is the art of wasting space beautifully?. I don?t know who to attribute that remark to; though it may be a misquote of something Philip Johnson once said. In any case, it?s a wry remark and it makes me think that ?Poetry is art of wasting silence (or its material manifestation: the blank page) 
beautifully."


http://ursprache.blogspot.com
.
I like that?but I would say it?s a characterization of poetry, not a definition.
.
--Mr Linguifiniky
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From jforjames at aol.com  Wed Aug 22 10:56:07 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 10:56:07 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] image of Emily on display
Message-ID: <8CF4E8D647F5AAB-13D0-616D5@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com>

https://www.amherst.edu/library/archives/holdings/edickinson/new_daguerreotype#world 




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From jforjames at aol.com  Wed Aug 22 12:07:03 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 12:07:03 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] The Monkey & the Wrench: Essays into Contemporary
	Poetics
Message-ID: <8CF4E974D03F4BE-6C8-C927B@webmail-m103.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.uakron.edu/uapress/browse-books/book-details/index.dot?id=1728940
The Monkey & the Wrench: Essays into Contemporary Poetics takes a snapshot of a moving target: the ever-shifting conversation about today?s poetry. The ten essays in this collection offer reflections and insights, practical advice for craft matters, and provocative points of departure for those who read and write poetry.
Contents
Robert Archambeau, ?The Discursive Situation of Poetry?
Elisa Gabbert, ?The Moves: Common Maneuvers in Contemporary Poetry?
Michael Dumanis, ?An Aesthetics of Accumulation: On the Contemporary Litany?
Stephen Burt, ?Cornucopia, or, Contemporary American Rhyme?
Benjamin Paloff, ?I Am One of an Infinite Number of Monkeys Named Shakespeare?
Elizabeth Robinson, ?Persona and the Mystical Poem?
David Kirby, ?A Wilderness of Monkeys?
Michael Theune et al., ?Hybrid Aesthetics and its Discontents?
Cole Swensen, ?Response to Hybrid Aesthetics and its Discontents?
Joy Katz, ?Goodbye, Goodbye, Goodbye: Notes on the Ends of Poems?

/
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Wed Aug 22 15:40:46 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 21:40:46 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Maths and poetry
Message-ID: <CA+9UsySgQO4TViTr-9zFW7f9nNunWe85HyGZ4K1evRi0WgMWgA@mail.gmail.com>

http://talkingwriting.com/why-poets-sometimes-think-in-numbers/


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From jforjames at aol.com  Wed Aug 22 15:53:55 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 15:53:55 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Simic on Poets & Moola
Message-ID: <8CF4EB6FED1AE60-1010-B1176@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com>

http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2012/aug/21/poets-and-money/





In a country that now regards money as the highest good, doing something for the love of it is not just odd, but downright perverse. Imagine the horror and anger felt by parents of a son or daughter who was destined for the Harvard Business School and a career in finance but discovered an interest in poetry instead. Imagine their enticing descriptions of the future riches and power awaiting their child while trying to make him or her reconsider the decision. ?Who has recognized you as a poet? Who has enrolled you in the ranks of poets?,? the trial judge shouted at the Russian poet Josef Brodsky, before sentencing him to five years of hard labor. ?No one,? Brodsky replied. He could have been speaking for all the sons and daughters who had to face their parents? wrath.
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From jforjames at aol.com  Wed Aug 22 16:20:42 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 16:20:42 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Anne Waldman Wins 2012 PEN Center USA Literary Award
	for Poetry
Message-ID: <8CF4EBABCE7EE2C-1010-B1644@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com>


Anne Waldman Wins 2012 PEN Center USA Literary Award for Poetry 
http://www.prweb.com/releases/annewaldman/penusa/prweb9819832.htm




Naropa University and the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics announces that Anne Waldman, Distinguished Professor of Poetics, and Artistic Director, Summer Writing Program, and co-founder of the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics, has been awarded the PEN Center USA 2012 Literary Award for Poetry for The Iovis Trilogy: Colors in the Mechanism of Concealment (Coffee House Press, 2011). In a review of The Iovis Trilogy, Publishers Weekly wrote, ?Waldman has in four decades of books and events stayed strange, a charismatic outsider, even as her long career has gathered respect.? 


As writer, editor, teacher, performer, magpie scholar, infra-structure curator, and cultural/political activist Waldman helped to create and nurture the ?Outrider? experimental poetry community. A prominent figure in the beat poetry generation, she was a founder and director of The Poetry Project at St. Marks?s Church. Waldman says she remains ?a highly original ?open field investigator? of consciousness, and is committed to the possibilities of radical shifts of language and states of mind to create new modal structures and montages of attention.?

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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 22 16:37:14 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 13:37:14 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Simic on Poets & Moola
In-Reply-To: <8CF4EB6FED1AE60-1010-B1176@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CF4EB6FED1AE60-1010-B1176@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <1345667834.75793.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

I love this poem by Larkin. It's not about "doing something for the love of it." But money is involved (in other words, money provides an excuse for posting the poem) --


?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Homage to a Government 

Next
year we are to bring the soldiers home
For
lack of money, and it is all right.
Places
they guarded, or kept orderly,
Must
guard themselves, and keep themselves orderly.
We
want the money for ourselves at home
Instead
of working. And this is all right.

It?s
hard to say who wanted it to happen,
But
how it?s been decided nobody minds.
The
places are a long way off, not here,
Which
is all right, and from what we hear
The
soldiers there only made trouble happen.
Next
year we shall be easier in our minds.

Next
year we shall be living in a country
That
brought its soldiers home for lack of money.
The
statues will be standing in the same
Tree-muffled
squares, and look nearly the same.
Our
children will not know it?s a different country.????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? All
we can hope to leave them now is money.


________________________________
 From: "jforjames at aol.com" <jforjames at aol.com>
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 3:53 PM
Subject: [New-Poetry] Simic on Poets & Moola
 

http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2012/aug/21/poets-and-money/ 


In a country that now regards money as the highest good, doing something for the love of it is not just odd, but downright perverse. Imagine the horror and anger felt by parents of a son or daughter who was destined for the Harvard Business School and a career in finance but discovered an interest in poetry instead. Imagine their enticing descriptions of the future riches and power awaiting their child while trying to make him or her reconsider the decision. ?Who has recognized you as a poet? Who has enrolled you in the ranks of poets?,? the trial judge shouted at the Russian poet Josef Brodsky, before sentencing him to five years of hard labor. ?No one,? Brodsky replied. He could have been speaking for all the sons and daughters who had to face their parents? wrath.
_______________________________________________
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 22 16:49:56 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 13:49:56 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

All attemps to define poetry are bound to fail. Although, Mr. Linguifiniky, your attempts to do so have been amusing. 



________________________________
 From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
 

I?ve 
heard it said that ?architecture is the art of wasting space beautifully?. I 
don?t know who to attribute that remark to; though it may be a misquote of 
something Philip Johnsononce said. In any case, it?s a wry remark and it makes me think that ?Poetry is 
art of wasting silence (or its material manifestation: the blank page) beautifully."

http://ursprache.blogspot.com
.
I like that?but I would say it?s a characterization of poetry, not a definition.
.
--Mr 
Linguifiniky
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Aug 22 17:14:27 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 17:14:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>

All attempts to define poetry are bound to fail. Although, Mr. Linguifiniky, your attempts to do so have been amusing. 

The fact that halfwits will never accept any definition of poetry as valid does not mean no definitions of it
are as valid as the best definitions of water or anything else.  Everything is ultimately definable enough?i.e., as
definable as my house?s location, 1708 Hayworth Road, Port Charlotte, Florida, the validity of which can be
demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt by a trip there  and a knock on the door, if I?m home.  

--Mr. Linguifiniky




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


I?ve heard it said that ?architecture is the art of wasting space beautifully?. I don?t know who to attribute that remark to; though it may be a misquote of something Philip Johnson once said. In any case, it?s a wry remark and it makes me think that ?Poetry is art of wasting silence (or its material manifestation: the blank page) 
beautifully."


http://ursprache.blogspot.com
.
I like that?but I would say it?s a characterization of poetry, not a definition.
.
--Mr Linguifiniky

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From newpoetry at mikesnider.org  Wed Aug 22 17:53:19 2012
From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 17:53:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
Message-ID: <348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.org>

Here's a definition of the poetry I'm interested in: rhythmically organized imitation of speech.  I doubt there can anymore be a generally accepted definition of poetry. Different communities self-describe as "poets"; each reader or listener will have more-or-less idiosyncratic ideas of what is a poem and what isn't.

www.mikesnider.org

On Aug 22, 2012, at 17:14, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

> All attempts to define poetry are bound to fail. Although, Mr. Linguifiniky, your attempts to do so have been amusing.
>  
> The fact that halfwits will never accept any definition of poetry as valid does not mean no definitions of it
> are as valid as the best definitions of water or anything else.  Everything is ultimately definable enough?i.e.,  as
> definable as my house?s location, 1708 Hayworth Road, Port Charlotte, Florida, the validity of which can be
> demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt by a trip there  and a knock on the door, if I?m home. 
>  
> --Mr. Linguifiniky
> 
>  
> From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>  
> I?ve heard it said that ?architecture is the art of wasting space beautifully?. I don?t know who to attribute that remark to; though it may be a misquote of something Philip Johnson once said. In any case, it?s a wry remark and it makes me think that ?Poetry is art of wasting silence (or its material manifestation: the blank page)
> beautifully."
> 
> http://ursprache.blogspot.com
> .
> I like that?but I would say it?s a characterization of poetry, not a definition.
> .
> --Mr Linguifiniky
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Aug 22 18:24:37 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 18:24:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.org>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
	<348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.org>
Message-ID: <32E2CA260DAB4CC684114D5A717BB93E@BobHP>

Why would you want an imitation of speech rather than an aesthetically pleasing variation on it? 
Of course, if you rhythmically organize it, you aren?t imitating it.

From: Michael Snider 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 5:53 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

Here's a definition of the poetry I'm interested in: rhythmically organized imitation of speech.  I doubt there can anymore be a generally accepted definition of poetry. Different communities self-describe as "poets"; each reader or listener will have more-or-less idiosyncratic ideas of what is a poem and what isn't.

www.mikesnider.org

On Aug 22, 2012, at 17:14, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


  All attempts to define poetry are bound to fail. Although, Mr. Linguifiniky, your attempts to do so have been amusing. 

  The fact that halfwits will never accept any definition of poetry as valid does not mean no definitions of it
  are as valid as the best definitions of water or anything else.  Everything is ultimately definable enough?i.e., as
  definable as my house?s location, 1708 Hayworth Road, Port Charlotte, Florida, the validity of which can be
  demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt by a trip there  and a knock on the door, if I?m home.  

  --Mr. Linguifiniky



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
  To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
  Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:58 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


  I?ve heard it said that ?architecture is the art of wasting space beautifully?. I don?t know who to attribute that remark to; though it may be a misquote of something Philip Johnson once said. In any case, it?s a wry remark and it makes me think that ?Poetry is art of wasting silence (or its material manifestation: the blank page) 
  beautifully."


  http://ursprache.blogspot.com
  .
  I like that?but I would say it?s a characterization of poetry, not a definition.
  .
  --Mr Linguifiniky

  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




------------------------------------------------------------------------------
  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From newpoetry at mikesnider.org  Wed Aug 22 19:00:52 2012
From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 19:00:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <32E2CA260DAB4CC684114D5A717BB93E@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP> <1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
	<348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.org>
	<32E2CA260DAB4CC684114D5A717BB93E@BobHP>
Message-ID: <F6AECAE5-74FA-4FE7-928F-A400A5D31183@mikesnider.org>

It's a fairly conventional definition, Bob. And imitations are not the same as the things they imitate 1?as you notice in your second sentence.

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 22, 2012, at 6:24 PM, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

> Why would you want an imitation of speech rather than an aesthetically pleasing variation on it?
> Of course, if you rhythmically organize it, you aren?t imitating it.
>  
> From: Michael Snider
> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 5:53 PM
> To: NewPoetry List
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>  
> Here's a definition of the poetry I'm interested in: rhythmically organized imitation of speech.  I doubt there can anymore be a generally accepted definition of poetry. Different communities self-describe as "poets"; each reader or listener will have more-or-less idiosyncratic ideas of what is a poem and what isn't.
> 
> www.mikesnider.org
> 
> On Aug 22, 2012, at 17:14, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
> 
>> All attempts to define poetry are bound to fail. Although, Mr. Linguifiniky, your attempts to do so have been amusing.
>>  
>> The fact that halfwits will never accept any definition of poetry as valid does not mean no definitions of it
>> are as valid as the best definitions of water or anything else.  Everything is ultimately definable enough?i.e., as
>> definable as my house?s location, 1708 Hayworth Road, Port Charlotte, Florida, the validity of which can be
>> demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt by a trip there  and a knock on the door, if I?m home. 
>>  
>> --Mr. Linguifiniky
>>  
>>  
>> From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:58 AM
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>>  
>> I?ve heard it said that ?architecture is the art of wasting space beautifully?. I don?t know who to attribute that remark to; though it may be a misquote of something Philip Johnson once said. In any case, it?s a wry remark and it makes me think that ?Poetry is art of wasting silence (or its material manifestation: the blank page)
>> beautifully."
>> 
>> http://ursprache.blogspot.com
>> .
>> I like that?but I would say it?s a characterization of poetry, not a definition.
>> .
>> --Mr Linguifiniky
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
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From newpoetry at mikesnider.org  Wed Aug 22 19:16:06 2012
From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 19:16:06 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <32E2CA260DAB4CC684114D5A717BB93E@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP> <1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
	<348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.org>
	<32E2CA260DAB4CC684114D5A717BB93E@BobHP>
Message-ID: <D7761ACA-AFD9-41F4-84EB-AD992154DDAD@mikesnider.org>

And, of course, an imitation is necessarily a variation. It's the "rhythmically organized" part that interests me. No one speaks In iambic pentameter except by coincidence, and then not for very long.

www.mikesnider.org

On Aug 22, 2012, at 18:24, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

> Why would you want an imitation of speech rather than an aesthetically pleasing variation on it?
> Of course, if you rhythmically organize it, you aren?t imitating it.
>  
> From: Michael Snider
> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 5:53 PM
> To: NewPoetry List
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>  
> Here's a definition of the poetry I'm interested in: rhythmically organized imitation of speech.  I doubt there can anymore be a generally accepted definition of poetry. Different communities self-describe as "poets"; each reader or listener will have more-or-less idiosyncratic ideas of what is a poem and what isn't.
> 
> www.mikesnider.org
> 
> On Aug 22, 2012, at 17:14, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
> 
>> All attempts to define poetry are bound to fail. Although, Mr. Linguifiniky, your attempts to do so have been amusing.
>>  
>> The fact that halfwits will never accept any definition of poetry as valid does not mean no definitions of it
>> are as valid as the best definitions of water or anything else.  Everything is ultimately definable enough?i.e., as
>> definable as my house?s location, 1708 Hayworth Road, Port Charlotte, Florida, the validity of which can be
>> demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt by a trip there  and a knock on the door, if I?m home. 
>>  
>> --Mr. Linguifiniky
>>  
>>  
>> From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:58 AM
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>>  
>> I?ve heard it said that ?architecture is the art of wasting space beautifully?. I don?t know who to attribute that remark to; though it may be a misquote of something Philip Johnson once said. In any case, it?s a wry remark and it makes me think that ?Poetry is art of wasting silence (or its material manifestation: the blank page)
>> beautifully."
>> 
>> http://ursprache.blogspot.com
>> .
>> I like that?but I would say it?s a characterization of poetry, not a definition.
>> .
>> --Mr Linguifiniky
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 22 19:22:51 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 16:22:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1345677771.31823.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Not sure if I sent this to new poetry or to myself. In case the later, here's what should have been my first post --

?


________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


All attempts to define poetry are bound to fail. Although, Mr. Linguifiniky, your attempts to do so have been amusing. 
?
The fact that halfwits will never accept any definition of poetry as valid does not mean no definitions of it
are as valid as the best definitions of water or anything else.? Everything is ultimately definable enough?i.e., as
definable as my house?s location, 1708 Hayworth Road, Port Charlotte, Florida, the validity of which can be
demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt by a trip there? and a knock on the door, if I?m home.? 
?
--Mr. Linguifiniky


________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


I?ve heard it said that ?architecture is the art of wasting space beautifully?. I don?t know who to attribute that remark to; though it may be a misquote of something Philip Johnsononce said. In any case, it?s a wry remark and it makes me think that ?Poetry is art of wasting silence (or its material manifestation: the blank page) beautifully."

http://ursprache.blogspot.com
.
I like that?but I would say it?s a characterization of poetry, not a definition.
.
--Mr Linguifiniky
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




________________________________
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



There you go being mean again, Bob. I certainly believe that one can define prosody and distinguish between various schools of poetry. You've done this well. What I think is inescapable is getting any definition that captures the whole of contemporary poetics. Take, for instance, the poet Russell Edson. Some of his poems are considered prose poems. Other pieces are called flash fictions. While some of the flash fictions do have characters and a narrative of sorts, there are others that do not, and for the life of me, I can't see why they're not called prose poems. The very notion of a prose poem is vague. 
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 22 19:21:18 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 16:21:18 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <1345676590.80578.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
	<1345676590.80578.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1345677678.99293.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

In other words, contemporary poetics is slippery. Distinctions are often blurred. Ashbery specializes in poems that are fuzzy, where it's hard to say why they're not a type of prose. 
?
You see, it is a little different than defining the location of your home. 



________________________________
From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
To: steve <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


There you go being mean again, Bob. I certainly believe that one can define prosody and distinguish between various schools of poetry. You've done this well. What I think is inescapable is getting any definition that captures the whole of contemporary poetics. Take, for instance, the poet Russell Edson. Some of his poems are considered prose poems. Other pieces are called flash fictions. While some of the flash fictions do have characters and a narrative of sorts, there are others that do not, and for the life of me, I can't see why they're not called prose poems. The very notion of a prose poem is vague. 



________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


All attempts to define poetry are bound to fail. Although, Mr. Linguifiniky, your attempts to do so have been amusing. 
?
The fact that halfwits will never accept any definition of poetry as valid does not mean no definitions of it
are as valid as the best definitions of water or anything else.? Everything is ultimately definable enough?i.e., as
definable as my house?s location, 1708 Hayworth Road, Port Charlotte, Florida, the validity of which can be
demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt by a trip there? and a knock on the door, if I?m home.? 
?
--Mr. Linguifiniky


________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


I?ve heard it said that ?architecture is the art of wasting space beautifully?. I don?t know who to attribute that remark to; though it may be a misquote of something Philip Johnsononce said. In any case, it?s a wry remark and it makes me think that ?Poetry is art of wasting silence (or its material manifestation: the blank page) beautifully."

http://ursprache.blogspot.com
.
I like that?but I would say it?s a characterization of poetry, not a definition.
.
--Mr Linguifiniky
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




________________________________
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


_______________________________________________
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Aug 22 19:20:40 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 19:20:40 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Maths and poetry
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsySgQO4TViTr-9zFW7f9nNunWe85HyGZ4K1evRi0WgMWgA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9UsySgQO4TViTr-9zFW7f9nNunWe85HyGZ4K1evRi0WgMWgA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4147955F7B7C475DA5A6776D13884D1B@BobHP>

Nice to see.  I tried to leave a comment in defense of arithmetic, which Carol quoted Sonya Kovalevsky as bad-mouthing but I don?t have the proper cookie or plug-in to leave a comment to the site, and couldn?t figure out after a half hour with Chrome ?help? what to do about it.

--Bob

From: Anny Ballardini 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 3:40 PM
To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Maths and poetry

http://talkingwriting.com/why-poets-sometimes-think-in-numbers/ 


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Aug 22 19:31:02 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 19:31:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <F6AECAE5-74FA-4FE7-928F-A400A5D31183@mikesnider.org>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF
	041DE976@mikesnider.org><32E2CA260DAB4CC684114D5A717BB93E@BobHP>
	<F6AECAE5-74FA-4FE7-928F-A400A5D31183@mikesnider.org>
Message-ID: <A5D14982D36E49AAA8E1D5AF0B54A78E@BobHP>



From: Michael Snider 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:00 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

It's a fairly conventional definition, Bob. And imitations are not the same as the things they imitate 1?as you notice in your second sentence.

I figured ?imitation? here didn?t mean ?imitation? as I was writing my first sentence.  But 
couldn?t have said anything negative if I didn?t get it wrong.  

?Rhythmical organization,? yes?but I?d call it ?rhythmical distortion of prose,? because a 
main value of it is the presentation of something familiar in a comparatively unfamiliar way.
This characterization also points to how almost everything poets do is fundamentally
a distortion of prose, a getting-away from prose for the sake of freshness.

Maybe like impressionist painting, which similarly organizes scenes into beat-like units?

--Bob
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 22 19:26:12 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 16:26:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <1345677771.31823.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
	<1345677771.31823.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1345677972.81517.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Damn ... inescapable is not the correct word. I want the word for ( bound to fail ). & I failing to find it. 



________________________________
From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


Not sure if I sent this to new poetry or to myself. In case the later, here's what should have been my first post --

?


________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


All attempts to define poetry are bound to fail. Although, Mr. Linguifiniky, your attempts to do so have been amusing. 
?
The fact that halfwits will never accept any definition of poetry as valid does not mean no definitions of it
are as valid as the best definitions of water or anything else.? Everything is ultimately definable enough?i.e., as
definable as my house?s location, 1708 Hayworth Road, Port Charlotte, Florida, the validity of which can be
demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt by a trip there? and a knock on the door, if I?m home.? 
?
--Mr. Linguifiniky


________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


I?ve heard it said that ?architecture is the art of wasting space beautifully?. I don?t know who to attribute that remark to; though it may be a misquote of something Philip Johnsononce said. In any case, it?s a wry remark and it makes me think that ?Poetry is art of wasting silence (or its material manifestation: the blank page) beautifully."

http://ursprache.blogspot.com
.
I like that?but I would say it?s a characterization of poetry, not a definition.
.
--Mr Linguifiniky
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




________________________________
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



There you go being mean again, Bob. I certainly believe that one can define prosody and distinguish between various schools of poetry. You've done this well. What I think is inescapable is getting any definition that captures the whole of contemporary poetics. Take, for instance, the poet Russell Edson. Some of his poems are considered prose poems. Other pieces are called flash fictions. While some of the flash fictions do have characters and a narrative of sorts, there are others that do not, and for the life of me, I can't see why they're not called prose poems. The very notion of a prose poem is vague. 

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 22 19:33:21 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 16:33:21 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <1345677678.99293.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
	<1345676590.80578.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<1345677678.99293.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1345678401.91020.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>


?
What I think is inescapable is getting any definition that captures the whole of contemporary poetics. 
?
Instead of the above, I should have said --
?
What I think escapes definition is any notion that claims to define, or capture the whole of contemporary poetics. 


________________________________
From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
To: New Poetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:21 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


In other words, contemporary poetics is slippery. Distinctions are often blurred. Ashbery specializes in poems that are fuzzy, where it's hard to say why they're not a type of prose. 
?
You see, it is a little different than defining the location of your home. 



________________________________
From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
To: steve <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


There you go being mean again, Bob. I certainly believe that one can define prosody and distinguish between various schools of poetry. You've done this well. What I think is inescapable is getting any definition that captures the whole of contemporary poetics. Take, for instance, the poet Russell Edson. Some of his poems are considered prose poems. Other pieces are called flash fictions. While some of the flash fictions do have characters and a narrative of sorts, there are others that do not, and for the life of me, I can't see why they're not called prose poems. The very notion of a prose poem is vague. 



________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


All attempts to define poetry are bound to fail. Although, Mr. Linguifiniky, your attempts to do so have been amusing. 
?
The fact that halfwits will never accept any definition of poetry as valid does not mean no definitions of it
are as valid as the best definitions of water or anything else.? Everything is ultimately definable enough?i.e., as
definable as my house?s location, 1708 Hayworth Road, Port Charlotte, Florida, the validity of which can be
demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt by a trip there? and a knock on the door, if I?m home.? 
?
--Mr. Linguifiniky


________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


I?ve heard it said that ?architecture is the art of wasting space beautifully?. I don?t know who to attribute that remark to; though it may be a misquote of something Philip Johnsononce said. In any case, it?s a wry remark and it makes me think that ?Poetry is art of wasting silence (or its material manifestation: the blank page) beautifully."

http://ursprache.blogspot.com
.
I like that?but I would say it?s a characterization of poetry, not a definition.
.
--Mr Linguifiniky
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




________________________________
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 22 19:38:40 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 16:38:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <1345677972.81517.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
	<1345677771.31823.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<1345677972.81517.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1345678720.98516.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

... I failing ...?(Help) ?... yes, I am doing that ...



________________________________
From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:26 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


Damn ... inescapable is not the correct word. I want the word for ( bound to fail ). & I failing to find it. 



________________________________
From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


Not sure if I sent this to new poetry or to myself. In case the later, here's what should have been my first post --

?


________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


All attempts to define poetry are bound to fail. Although, Mr. Linguifiniky, your attempts to do so have been amusing. 
?
The fact that halfwits will never accept any definition of poetry as valid does not mean no definitions of it
are as valid as the best definitions of water or anything else.? Everything is ultimately definable enough?i.e., as
definable as my house?s location, 1708 Hayworth Road, Port Charlotte, Florida, the validity of which can be
demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt by a trip there? and a knock on the door, if I?m home.? 
?
--Mr. Linguifiniky


________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


I?ve heard it said that ?architecture is the art of wasting space beautifully?. I don?t know who to attribute that remark to; though it may be a misquote of something Philip Johnsononce said. In any case, it?s a wry remark and it makes me think that ?Poetry is art of wasting silence (or its material manifestation: the blank page) beautifully."

http://ursprache.blogspot.com
.
I like that?but I would say it?s a characterization of poetry, not a definition.
.
--Mr Linguifiniky
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




________________________________
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



There you go being mean again, Bob. I certainly believe that one can define prosody and distinguish between various schools of poetry. You've done this well. What I think is inescapable is getting any definition that captures the whole of contemporary poetics. Take, for instance, the poet Russell Edson. Some of his poems are considered prose poems. Other pieces are called flash fictions. While some of the flash fictions do have characters and a narrative of sorts, there are others that do not, and for the life of me, I can't see why they're not called prose poems. The very notion of a prose poem is vague. 

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From carol.dorf at gmail.com  Wed Aug 22 19:35:39 2012
From: carol.dorf at gmail.com (carol dorf)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 16:35:39 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Maths and poetry
In-Reply-To: <4147955F7B7C475DA5A6776D13884D1B@BobHP>
References: <CA+9UsySgQO4TViTr-9zFW7f9nNunWe85HyGZ4K1evRi0WgMWgA@mail.gmail.com>
	<4147955F7B7C475DA5A6776D13884D1B@BobHP>
Message-ID: <CABVBwJBzfF9Pjf48s=Py_Mcqsffh-RUYDD1iVZxvizQV1QiCvw@mail.gmail.com>

Thanks for posting this, Anny.
Bob, I'm actually not sure how the comments work, either -- but if you
backchannel your comment to me, I'll try to figure out how to put it on
Talking Writing.

Carol


On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 4:20 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:

>   Nice to see.  I tried to leave a comment in defense of arithmetic,
> which Carol quoted Sonya Kovalevsky as bad-mouthing but I don?t have the
> proper cookie or plug-in to leave a comment to the site, and couldn?t
> figure out after a half hour with Chrome ?help? what to do about it.
>
> --Bob
>
>  *From:* Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 22, 2012 3:40 PM
> *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views<new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Maths and poetry
>
> http://talkingwriting.com/why-poets-sometimes-think-in-numbers/
>
>
> --
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
>  ------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Carol Dorf
talkingwriting.com
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Aug 22 19:51:48 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 19:51:48 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <1345677678.99293.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><1345676590.80578.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.bf1.y
	ahoo.com>
	<1345677678.99293.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CE996792BF844E33AEDEC04E14609595@BobHP>

Complex subject which I?ve discussed too many times but can?t stop discussing.  It?s easy to define
poetry as something with lineation, or the equivalent?which disqualifies ?prose poems? as poetry.
It?s called poetry by people wanting the high-art status the title will give it.

Even if it were not easy to distinguish prose from poetry, the argument that a definition will always
be fuzzy at its borders is true but not relevant.  I don?t know exactly where my property ends and 
begins, and geology changes it minutely from year to year.  But my definition of it covers it
SUFFICIENTLY, who cares if it does not cover it absolutely.  Same with my definition of poetry.
There are works that are clearly visual but also have textual elements that just about no one
can say definitely are or are not verbal enough to call the works poems.  So what?  To say
that we therefore cannot define poetry is like saying we can?t define ocean and land because 
of tidal marshes.  Or we can?t define an inch because no tool can pin it down.

I?m ?passionate? about this because too many people believe in homogenization?that there
are no significant, distinguishing differences between things--and prefer gush to attempts
to ascertain the truth . . . which they don?t believe in (because they believe in the truth of
the statement that there?s no such thing as truth).

Urp.

--Bob


From: stephen russell 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:21 PM
To: New Poetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

In other words, contemporary poetics is slippery. Distinctions are often blurred. Ashbery specializes in poems that are fuzzy, where it's hard to say why they're not a type of prose. 

You see, it is a little different than defining the location of your home. 


From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
To: steve <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


There you go being mean again, Bob. I certainly believe that one can define prosody and distinguish between various schools of poetry. You've done this well. What I think is inescapable is getting any definition that captures the whole of contemporary poetics. Take, for instance, the poet Russell Edson. Some of his poems are considered prose poems. Other pieces are called flash fictions. While some of the flash fictions do have characters and a narrative of sorts, there are others that do not, and for the life of me, I can't see why they're not called prose poems. The very notion of a prose poem is vague. 


From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


All attempts to define poetry are bound to fail. Although, Mr. Linguifiniky, your attempts to do so have been amusing. 

The fact that halfwits will never accept any definition of poetry as valid does not mean no definitions of it
are as valid as the best definitions of water or anything else.  Everything is ultimately definable enough?i.e., as
definable as my house?s location, 1708 Hayworth Road, Port Charlotte, Florida, the validity of which can be
demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt by a trip there  and a knock on the door, if I?m home.  

--Mr. Linguifiniky


From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


I?ve heard it said that ?architecture is the art of wasting space beautifully?. I don?t know who to attribute that remark to; though it may be a misquote of something Philip Johnson once said. In any case, it?s a wry remark and it makes me think that ?Poetry is art of wasting silence (or its material manifestation: the blank page) 
beautifully."


http://ursprache.blogspot.com
.
I like that?but I would say it?s a characterization of poetry, not a definition.
.
--Mr Linguifiniky

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Aug 22 19:56:49 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 19:56:49 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Maths and poetry
In-Reply-To: <CABVBwJBzfF9Pjf48s=Py_Mcqsffh-RUYDD1iVZxvizQV1QiCvw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9UsySgQO4TViTr-9zFW7f9nNunWe85HyGZ4K1evRi0WgMWgA@mail.gmail.com><4147955F7B7C475DA5A6776D13884D1B@BobHP>
	<CABVBwJBzfF9Pjf48s=Py_Mcqsffh-RUYDD1iVZxvizQV1QiCvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <4EBC47F4CAB34C47A218A60372B38865@BobHP>

Thanks, Carol. 

--Bob

From: carol dorf 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:35 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Maths and poetry

Thanks for posting this, Anny.
Bob, I'm actually not sure how the comments work, either -- but if you backchannel your comment to me, I'll try to figure out how to put it on Talking Writing.

Carol



On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 4:20 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

  Nice to see.  I tried to leave a comment in defense of arithmetic, which Carol quoted Sonya Kovalevsky as bad-mouthing but I don?t have the proper cookie or plug-in to leave a comment to the site, and couldn?t figure out after a half hour with Chrome ?help? what to do about it.

  --Bob

  From: Anny Ballardini 
  Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 3:40 PM
  To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &amp,Views 
  Subject: [New-Poetry] Maths and poetry

  http://talkingwriting.com/why-poets-sometimes-think-in-numbers/ 


  -- 
  Anny Ballardini
  http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
  http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
  http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
  http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
  I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
  Friedrich Nietzsche

  ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
  vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
  Giovenale



------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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-- 
Carol Dorf
talkingwriting.com





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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 22 19:51:23 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 16:51:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <A5D14982D36E49AAA8E1D5AF0B54A78E@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF
	041DE976@mikesnider.org><32E2CA260DAB4CC684114D5A717BB93E@BobHP>
	<F6AECAE5-74FA-4FE7-928F-A400A5D31183@mikesnider.org>
	<A5D14982D36E49AAA8E1D5AF0B54A78E@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1345679483.61456.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Saying something is a rhythmical imitation of speech is not the same thing as saying it's?an imitation of prose. The spoken word is not prose. One speaks, but one also writes prose. 



________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry





From: Michael Snider 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:00 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
It's a fairly conventional definition, Bob. And imitations are not the same as the things they imitate 1?as you notice in your second sentence.

I figured ?imitation? here didn?t mean ?imitation? as I was writing my first sentence.? But 
couldn?t have said anything negative if I didn?t get it wrong.? 
?
?Rhythmical organization,? yes?but I?d call it ?rhythmical distortion of prose,? because a 
main value of it is the presentation of something familiar in a comparatively unfamiliar way.
This characterization also points to how almost everything poets do is fundamentally
a distortion of prose, a getting-away from prose for the sake of freshness.
?
Maybe like impressionist painting, which similarly organizes scenes into beat-like units?
?
--Bob
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Aug 22 19:55:57 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 19:55:57 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <1345678401.91020.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><1345676590.80578.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.bf1.y
	ahoo.com><1345677678.99293.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<1345678401.91020.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <D19736F0E91D48708C4E4698C9D918C7@BobHP>

I think I know what you mean.  That?s different from defining poetry.  I
think your concern is more with giving a complete description of contemporary
poetry than defining it.  I certainly could not provide such a complete
description.  Not sure I could give even an adequate one.

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:33 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


 
What I think is inescapable is getting any definition that captures the whole of contemporary poetics. 

Instead of the above, I should have said --

What I think escapes definition is any notion that claims to define, or capture the whole of contemporary poetics. 

From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
To: New Poetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:21 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


In other words, contemporary poetics is slippery. Distinctions are often blurred. Ashbery specializes in poems that are fuzzy, where it's hard to say why they're not a type of prose. 

You see, it is a little different than defining the location of your home. 


From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
To: steve <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


There you go being mean again, Bob. I certainly believe that one can define prosody and distinguish between various schools of poetry. You've done this well. What I think is inescapable is getting any definition that captures the whole of contemporary poetics. Take, for instance, the poet Russell Edson. Some of his poems are considered prose poems. Other pieces are called flash fictions. While some of the flash fictions do have characters and a narrative of sorts, there are others that do not, and for the life of me, I can't see why they're not called prose poems. The very notion of a prose poem is vague. 


From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


All attempts to define poetry are bound to fail. Although, Mr. Linguifiniky, your attempts to do so have been amusing. 

The fact that halfwits will never accept any definition of poetry as valid does not mean no definitions of it
are as valid as the best definitions of water or anything else.  Everything is ultimately definable enough?i.e., as
definable as my house?s location, 1708 Hayworth Road, Port Charlotte, Florida, the validity of which can be
demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt by a trip there  and a knock on the door, if I?m home.  

--Mr. Linguifiniky


From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


I?ve heard it said that ?architecture is the art of wasting space beautifully?. I don?t know who to attribute that remark to; though it may be a misquote of something Philip Johnson once said. In any case, it?s a wry remark and it makes me think that ?Poetry is art of wasting silence (or its material manifestation: the blank page) 
beautifully."


http://ursprache.blogspot.com
.
I like that?but I would say it?s a characterization of poetry, not a definition.
.
--Mr Linguifiniky

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From jforjames at aol.com  Wed Aug 22 20:17:25 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 20:17:25 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <1345677678.99293.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
	<1345676590.80578.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<1345677678.99293.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <8CF4EDBCEDCAAC4-1794-CA7D8@webmail-d158.sysops.aol.com>

Defining poetry is definitely harder than stating one's location. What is one's mailing address or even location in the universe? Not really useful unless you know what the universe is. The universe of poetry is mind-bogglingly large, more unusual than anyone can conceive, and constantly expanding, unless its recursive.


Finnegan



-----Original Message-----
From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
To: New Poetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wed, Aug 22, 2012 7:24 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry



In other words, contemporary poetics is slippery. Distinctions are often blurred. Ashbery specializes in poems that are fuzzy, where it's hard to say why they're not a type of prose. 
 
You see, it is a little different than defining the location of your home. 






From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
To: steve <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry




There you go being mean again, Bob. I certainly believe that one can define prosody and distinguish between various schools of poetry. You've done this well. What I think is inescapable is getting any definition that captures the whole of contemporary poetics. Take, for instance, the poet Russell Edson. Some of his poems are considered prose poems. Other pieces are called flash fictions. While some of the flash fictions do have characters and a narrative of sorts, there are others that do not, and for the life of me, I can't see why they're not called prose poems. The very notion of a prose poem is vague. 





From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry








All attempts to define poetry are bound to fail. Although, Mr. Linguifiniky, your attempts to do so have been amusing. 

 
The fact that halfwits will never accept any definition of poetry as valid does not mean no definitions of it
are as valid as the best definitions of water or anything else.  Everything is ultimately definable enough?i.e., as
definable as my house?s location, 1708 Hayworth Road, Port Charlotte, Florida, the validity of which can be
demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt by a trip there  and a knock on the door, if I?m home.  
 
--Mr. Linguifiniky


 


From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

 



I?ve heard it said that ?architecture is the art of wasting space beautifully?. I don?t know who to attribute that remark to; though it may be a misquote of something Philip Johnson once said. In any case, it?s a wry remark and it makes me think that ?Poetry is art of wasting silence (or its material manifestation: the blank page) 
beautifully."


http://ursprache.blogspot.com
.
I like that?but I would say it?s a characterization of poetry, not a definition.
.
--Mr Linguifiniky



_______________________________________________
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 22 20:20:43 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 17:20:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <CE996792BF844E33AEDEC04E14609595@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><1345676590.80578.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.bf1.y
	ahoo.com>
	<1345677678.99293.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<CE996792BF844E33AEDEC04E14609595@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1345681243.44633.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>



I?m ?passionate? about this because too many people believe in homogenization?that there
are no significant, distinguishing differences between things--and prefer gush to attempts
to ascertain the truth . . . which they don?t believe in (because they believe in the truth of
the statement that there?s no such thing as truth).

Yes, it's lazy to say there's no such thing as truth. Because we're not afforded the clarity of mathmatical proof doesn't mean one can't strive for a better understanding of concepts. 
Having said that, I'm pretty comfortable with Michael Sniders definition ...poetry being a?rhythmical organization of speech. Speech, as distinguished from prose. I don't believe that poetry is a distortion of prose. That strikes me as no different that saying that?the motorcyle is a distortion of the bicycle. 



________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:51 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


Complex subject which I?ve discussed too many times but can?t stop discussing.? It?s easy to define
poetry as something with lineation, or the equivalent?which disqualifies ?prose poems? as poetry.
It?s called poetry by people wanting the high-art status the title will give it.

Even if it were not easy to distinguish prose from poetry, the argument that a definition will always
be fuzzy at its borders is true but not relevant.? I don?t know exactly where my property ends and 
begins, and geology changes it minutely from year to year.? But my definition of it covers it
SUFFICIENTLY, who cares if it does not cover it absolutely.? Same with my definition of poetry.
There are works that are clearly visual but also have textual elements that just about no one
can say definitely are or are not verbal enough to call the works poems.? So what?? To say
that we therefore cannot define poetry is like saying we can?t define ocean and land because 
of tidal marshes.? Or we can?t define an inch because no tool can pin it down.

I?m ?passionate? about this because too many people believe in homogenization?that there
are no significant, distinguishing differences between things--and prefer gush to attempts
to ascertain the truth . . . which they don?t believe in (because they believe in the truth of
the statement that there?s no such thing as truth).

Urp.

--Bob
?
From: stephen russell 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:21 PM
To: New Poetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In other words, contemporary poetics is slippery. Distinctions are often blurred. Ashbery specializes in poems that are fuzzy, where it's hard to say why they're not a type of prose. 
?
You see, it is a little different than defining the location of your home. 



________________________________
From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
To: steve <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


There you go being mean again, Bob. I certainly believe that one can define prosody and distinguish between various schools of poetry. You've done this well. What I think is inescapable is getting any definition that captures the whole of contemporary poetics. Take, for instance, the poet Russell Edson. Some of his poems are considered prose poems. Other pieces are called flash fictions. While some of the flash fictions do have characters and a narrative of sorts, there are others that do not, and for the life of me, I can't see why they're not called prose poems. The very notion of a prose poem is vague. 



________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


All attempts to define poetry are bound to fail. Although, Mr. Linguifiniky, your attempts to do so have been amusing. 
?
The fact that halfwits will never accept any definition of poetry as valid does not mean no definitions of it
are as valid as the best definitions of water or anything else.? Everything is ultimately definable enough?i.e., as
definable as my house?s location, 1708 Hayworth Road, Port Charlotte, Florida, the validity of which can be
demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt by a trip there? and a knock on the door, if I?m home.? 
?
--Mr. Linguifiniky


________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


I?ve heard it said that ?architecture is the art of wasting space beautifully?. I don?t know who to attribute that remark to; though it may be a misquote of something Philip Johnsononce said. In any case, it?s a wry remark and it makes me think that ?Poetry is art of wasting silence (or its material manifestation: the blank page) beautifully."

http://ursprache.blogspot.com
.
I like that?but I would say it?s a characterization of poetry, not a definition.
.
--Mr Linguifiniky
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




________________________________
_______________________________________________
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 22 20:43:12 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 17:43:12 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <8CF4EDBCEDCAAC4-1794-CA7D8@webmail-d158.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
	<1345676590.80578.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<1345677678.99293.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<8CF4EDBCEDCAAC4-1794-CA7D8@webmail-d158.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <1345682592.78024.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

I'm interested sign poetry. How do deaf people get a feel for poetry?
?
Prosody is a?large enough area of study ... but the thing itself, poetry, I think of as (almost)
?
in?ef?fa?ble
?
? ?
adjective 
1. 
incapable of being expressed or described in words; inexpressible: ineffable joy. 
2. 
not to be spoken because of its sacredness; unutterable: the ineffable name?of the deity. 


________________________________
From: "jforjames at aol.com" <jforjames at aol.com>
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:17 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


Defining poetry is definitely harder than stating one's location. What is one's mailing address or even location in the universe? Not really useful unless you know what the universe is. The universe of poetry is mind-bogglingly large, more unusual than anyone can conceive, and constantly expanding, unless its recursive. 


Finnegan


-----Original Message-----
From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
To: New Poetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wed, Aug 22, 2012 7:24 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


In other words, contemporary poetics is slippery. Distinctions are often blurred. Ashbery specializes in poems that are fuzzy, where it's hard to say why they're not a type of prose. 
?
You see, it is a little different than defining the location of your home. 



________________________________
From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
To: steve <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


There you go being mean again, Bob. I certainly believe that one can define prosody and distinguish between various schools of poetry. You've done this well. What I think is inescapable is getting any definition that captures the whole of contemporary poetics. Take, for instance, the poet Russell Edson. Some of his poems are considered prose poems. Other pieces are called flash fictions. While some of the flash fictions do have characters and a narrative of sorts, there are others that do not, and for the life of me, I can't see why they're not called prose poems. The very notion of a prose poem is vague. 



________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


All attempts to define poetry are bound to fail. Although, Mr. Linguifiniky, your attempts to do so have been amusing. 
?
The fact that halfwits will never accept any definition of poetry as valid does not mean no definitions of it
are as valid as the best definitions of water or anything else.? Everything is ultimately definable enough?i.e., as
definable as my house?s location, 1708 Hayworth Road, Port Charlotte, Florida, the validity of which can be
demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt by a trip there? and a knock on the door, if I?m home.? 
?
--Mr. Linguifiniky



________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


I?ve heard it said that ?architecture is the art of wasting space beautifully?. I don?t know who to attribute that remark to; though it may be a misquote of something Philip Johnsononce said. In any case, it?s a wry remark and it makes me think that ?Poetry is art of wasting silence (or its material manifestation: the blank page) beautifully."

http://ursprache.blogspot.com/
.
I like that?but I would say it?s a characterization of poetry, not a definition.
.
--Mr Linguifiniky
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




________________________________
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From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu  Thu Aug 23 00:42:39 2012
From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire)
Date: Wed, 22 Aug 2012 23:42:39 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <1345682592.78024.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
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	<1345682592.78024.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <5035B4BF.8080203@louisiana.edu>

The body's full of rhythms they can respond to (when I tended bar as an 
undergraduate, some of our most energetic dancers were deaf men, picking 
up rhythms from atmospheric vibration and visual signals from other 
dancers). And of course, there's plenty of visual stimulus in lots of 
poetry. There's a great video (I'm not sure where to find it, now) of 
the National Theater of the Deaf performing a sign version of Frost's 
"The Silken Tent" while Jason Robards reads the poem aloud. It's really 
stunning--more like dance than mere signing. I've read that there are 
special nuances--a kind of "poetic rhetoric"--for deaf signing of 
poetry. Here's a review of the show I saw:

http://www.csmonitor.com/1981/0427/042769.html

Best,

Jerry


On 8/22/2012 7:43 PM, stephen russell wrote:
> I'm interested sign poetry. How do deaf people get a feel for poetry?
> Prosody is a large enough area of study ... but the thing itself, 
> poetry, I think of as (almost)
> in?ef?fa?ble
> adjective
> 1.
> incapable of being expressed or described in words; inexpressible: 
> ineffable joy.
> 2.
> not to be spoken because of its sacredness; unutterable: the ineffable 
> name <http://us.mg6.mail.yahoo.com/browse/name>of the deity.
>
> *From:* "jforjames at aol.com" <jforjames at aol.com>
> *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:17 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>
> Defining poetry is definitely harder than stating one's location. What 
> is one's mailing address or even location in the universe? Not really 
> useful unless you know what the universe is. The universe of poetry is 
> mind-bogglingly large, more unusual than anyone can conceive, and 
> constantly expanding, unless its recursive.
>
> Finnegan
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
> To: New Poetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Wed, Aug 22, 2012 7:24 pm
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>
> In other words, contemporary poetics is slippery. Distinctions are 
> often blurred. Ashbery specializes in poems that are fuzzy, where it's 
> hard to say why they're not a type of prose.
> You see, it is a little different than defining the location of your 
> home.
>
>
> *From:* stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com 
> <mailto:poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>>
> *To:* steve <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com 
> <mailto:poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:03 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>
> There you go being mean again, Bob. I certainly believe that one can 
> define prosody and distinguish between various schools of poetry. 
> You've done this well. What I think is inescapable is getting any 
> definition that captures the whole of contemporary poetics. Take, for 
> instance, the poet Russell Edson. Some of his poems are considered 
> prose poems. Other pieces are called flash fictions. While some of the 
> flash fictions do have characters and a narrative of sorts, there are 
> others that do not, and for the life of me, I can't see why they're 
> not called prose poems. The very notion of a prose poem is vague.
>
> *From:* bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net 
> <mailto:bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>>
> *To:* NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> <mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 22, 2012 5:14 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>
> All attempts to define poetry are bound to fail. Although, Mr. 
> Linguifiniky, your attempts to do so have been amusing.
> The fact that halfwits will never accept any definition of poetry as 
> valid does not mean no definitions of it
> are as valid as the best definitions of water or anything else. 
> Everything is ultimately definable /enough/---i.e., as
> definable as my house's location, 1708 Hayworth Road, Port Charlotte, 
> Florida, the validity of which can be
> demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt by a trip there and a knock on 
> the door, if I'm home.
> --Mr. Linguifiniky
>
> *From:* bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net 
> <mailto:bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>>
> *To:* NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
> <mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:58 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
> I've heard it said that 'architecture is the art of wasting space 
> beautifully'. I don't know who to attribute that remark to; though it 
> may be a misquote of something Philip Johnson 
> <http://architecture.about.com/od/greatarchitects/p/johnson.htm>once 
> said. In any case, it's a wry remark and it makes me think that 
> "Poetry is art of wasting silence (or its material manifestation: the 
> blank page)
> beautifully."
>
> http://ursprache.blogspot.com/
> .
> I like that---but I would say it's a /characterization /of poetry, not 
> a definition.
> .
> --Mr Linguifiniky
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu  <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506
jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
337-482-5478

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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Thu Aug 23 02:58:35 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 08:58:35 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Horseless Press
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyTXF8m0_6ddu-Zxp983WGA7G+XyptpoozyyUmFpYoJuBA@mail.gmail.com>

http://horselesspress.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/hlr12.pdf

Interesting, among others, Megan Burns's visual concept

-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Thu Aug 23 05:55:40 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 11:55:40 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Simic on the poets' wealth
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyQZVUD5VX3y79dzvjKuPFn0gSZoVuSSrG+QvO30=zs1Vg@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2012/aug/21/poets-and-money/

-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Aug 23 06:11:59 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 06:11:59 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <8CF4EDBCEDCAAC4-1794-CA7D8@webmail-d158.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><1345676590.80578.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.bf1.y
	ahoo.com><1345677678.99293.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<8CF4EDBCEDCAAC4-1794-CA7D8@webmail-d158.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <A248309631884300AA25AC8280FF03BD@BobHP>

That?s what I mean: the idea that poetry is ethereally beyond everything else.  More complex
than a location, so long as one stays above physics, but I merely used location to show that 
everything is ultimately impossible to pin down absolutely.  

Also, Finnegan, you?re talking?I?m sure--about defining poetic beauty, not poetry, which is
just a bunch of words.  Poetic beauty is much harder to define that poetry, but definable, 
though not in words philogushers would accept.

--Bob

From: jforjames at aol.com 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:17 PM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

Defining poetry is definitely harder than stating one's location. What is one's mailing address or even location in the universe? Not really useful unless you know what the universe is. The universe of poetry is mind-bogglingly large, more unusual than anyone can conceive, and constantly expanding, unless its recursive. 

Finnegan



-----Original Message-----
From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
To: New Poetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wed, Aug 22, 2012 7:24 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


In other words, contemporary poetics is slippery. Distinctions are often blurred. Ashbery specializes in poems that are fuzzy, where it's hard to say why they're not a type of prose. 

You see, it is a little different than defining the location of your home. 


From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
To: steve <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


There you go being mean again, Bob. I certainly believe that one can define prosody and distinguish between various schools of poetry. You've done this well. What I think is inescapable is getting any definition that captures the whole of contemporary poetics. Take, for instance, the poet Russell Edson. Some of his poems are considered prose poems. Other pieces are called flash fictions. While some of the flash fictions do have characters and a narrative of sorts, there are others that do not, and for the life of me, I can't see why they're not called prose poems. The very notion of a prose poem is vague. 


From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


All attempts to define poetry are bound to fail. Although, Mr. Linguifiniky, your attempts to do so have been amusing. 

The fact that halfwits will never accept any definition of poetry as valid does not mean no definitions of it
are as valid as the best definitions of water or anything else.  Everything is ultimately definable enough?i.e., as
definable as my house?s location, 1708 Hayworth Road, Port Charlotte, Florida, the validity of which can be
demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt by a trip there  and a knock on the door, if I?m home.  

--Mr. Linguifiniky


From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


I?ve heard it said that ?architecture is the art of wasting space beautifully?. I don?t know who to attribute that remark to; though it may be a misquote of something Philip Johnson once said. In any case, it?s a wry remark and it makes me think that ?Poetry is art of wasting silence (or its material manifestation: the blank page) 
beautifully."


http://ursprache.blogspot.com
.
I like that?but I would say it?s a characterization of poetry, not a definition.
.
--Mr Linguifiniky

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



_______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Aug 23 06:13:09 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 06:13:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <1345679483.61456.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.or
	g><32E2CA260DAB4CC684114D5A717BB93E@BobHP><F6AECAE5-74FA-4FE7-928F-A400A5D31183@mikesnider.org><A5D14982D36E49AAA8E1D5AF0B54A78
	E@BobHP>
	<1345679483.61456.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <FC3DA594DF684600AF71D8153B0461A6@BobHP>

In my linguistics, there are only prose and poetry, Stephen: one speaks prose, one declaims poetry.

--Mr. Linguifinicky

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:51 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

Saying something is a rhythmical imitation of speech is not the same thing as saying it's an imitation of prose. The spoken word is not prose. One speaks, but one also writes prose. 


From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry




From: Michael Snider 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:00 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

It's a fairly conventional definition, Bob. And imitations are not the same as the things they imitate 1?as you notice in your second sentence.

I figured ?imitation? here didn?t mean ?imitation? as I was writing my first sentence.  But 
couldn?t have said anything negative if I didn?t get it wrong.  

?Rhythmical organization,? yes?but I?d call it ?rhythmical distortion of prose,? because a 
main value of it is the presentation of something familiar in a comparatively unfamiliar way.
This characterization also points to how almost everything poets do is fundamentally
a distortion of prose, a getting-away from prose for the sake of freshness.

Maybe like impressionist painting, which similarly organizes scenes into beat-like units?

--Bob

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Aug 23 06:19:05 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 06:19:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <1345681243.44633.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
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From: stephen russell 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:20 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


I?m ?passionate? about this because too many people believe in homogenization?that there
are no significant, distinguishing differences between things--and prefer gush to attempts
to ascertain the truth . . . which they don?t believe in (because they believe in the truth of
the statement that there?s no such thing as truth).

Yes, it's lazy to say there's no such thing as truth. Because we're not afforded the clarity of mathmatical proof doesn't mean one can't strive for a better understanding of concepts. 
Having said that, I'm pretty comfortable with Michael Sniders definition ...poetry being a rhythmical organization of speech. Speech, as distinguished from prose. I don't believe that poetry is a distortion of prose. That strikes me as no different that saying that the motorcyle is a distortion of the bicycle. 

Not even in the sense that impressionism is a distortion of realism?  Michael?s 
characterization does not, I would add, cover all the kinds of poetry, including conventional
poetry, which does not use rhythmical organization?haiku, for instance.  Lots of
free verse.

--Bob
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Aug 23 06:20:17 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 06:20:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <1345682592.78024.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooM
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	ahoo.com><1345677678.99293.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><8CF4EDBCEDCAAC4-1794-CA7D8@webmail-d158.sysops.aol.com>
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Message-ID: <DB648DC59BC949FCABB448DA427520FF@BobHP>



From: stephen russell 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:43 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

I'm interested sign poetry. How do deaf people get a feel for poetry?

Prosody is a large enough area of study ... but the thing itself, poetry, I think of as (almost)

in?ef?fa?ble


Right?too gushfully sacred for us poor mortals to comprehend.

--Bob
? ?
adjective 
1. 
incapable of being expressed or described in words; inexpressible: ineffable joy. 
2. 
not to be spoken because of its sacredness; unutterable: the ineffable name of the deity. 

From: "jforjames at aol.com" <jforjames at aol.com>
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:17 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


Defining poetry is definitely harder than stating one's location. What is one's mailing address or even location in the universe? Not really useful unless you know what the universe is. The universe of poetry is mind-bogglingly large, more unusual than anyone can conceive, and constantly expanding, unless its recursive. 

Finnegan



-----Original Message-----
From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
To: New Poetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wed, Aug 22, 2012 7:24 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


In other words, contemporary poetics is slippery. Distinctions are often blurred. Ashbery specializes in poems that are fuzzy, where it's hard to say why they're not a type of prose. 

You see, it is a little different than defining the location of your home. 


From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
To: steve <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


There you go being mean again, Bob. I certainly believe that one can define prosody and distinguish between various schools of poetry. You've done this well. What I think is inescapable is getting any definition that captures the whole of contemporary poetics. Take, for instance, the poet Russell Edson. Some of his poems are considered prose poems. Other pieces are called flash fictions. While some of the flash fictions do have characters and a narrative of sorts, there are others that do not, and for the life of me, I can't see why they're not called prose poems. The very notion of a prose poem is vague. 


From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


All attempts to define poetry are bound to fail. Although, Mr. Linguifiniky, your attempts to do so have been amusing. 

The fact that halfwits will never accept any definition of poetry as valid does not mean no definitions of it
are as valid as the best definitions of water or anything else.  Everything is ultimately definable enough?i.e., as
definable as my house?s location, 1708 Hayworth Road, Port Charlotte, Florida, the validity of which can be
demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt by a trip there  and a knock on the door, if I?m home.  

--Mr. Linguifiniky


From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


I?ve heard it said that ?architecture is the art of wasting space beautifully?. I don?t know who to attribute that remark to; though it may be a misquote of something Philip Johnson once said. In any case, it?s a wry remark and it makes me think that ?Poetry is art of wasting silence (or its material manifestation: the blank page) 
beautifully."


http://ursprache.blogspot.com/
.
I like that?but I would say it?s a characterization of poetry, not a definition.
.
--Mr Linguifiniky

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



_______________________________________________
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http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry






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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Thu Aug 23 08:26:30 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 14:26:30 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Simic on Poets & Moola
In-Reply-To: <8CF4EB6FED1AE60-1010-B1176@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CF4EB6FED1AE60-1010-B1176@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyQo8H-3n=M6Xx1T3XDeoj+fuN++a4b+q1fTZnF7ygpe+Q@mail.gmail.com>

Ah sorry, James, I did not see your previous post and posted the same link.
I love this passage:

More infuriatingly, most poems are short. They give the impression it took
no time to write them. Ten minutes tops. To write a six-hundred-page novel
takes years. You go and work at your desk every day the way a miner goes to
his mine and you feel as drained afterwards. Of course, that kind of work
should be amply rewarded. A poet stands by the window watching the rain
fall, or looks at the lock of hair of his old sweetheart, scribbles
something down on a piece of paper and is through for the day. The most
outrageous thing about poetry is that poems composed in such a
lackadaisical manner end up in anthologies your kids are supposed to study
in school. Not only that, but they may fall in love with them, memorize
them, and try to imitate them.


On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 9:53 PM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:

> http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2012/aug/21/poets-and-money/
>
>
>  In a country that now regards money as the highest good, doing something
> for the love of it is not just odd, but downright perverse. Imagine the
> horror and anger felt by parents of a son or daughter who was destined for
> the Harvard Business School and a career in finance but discovered an
> interest in poetry instead. Imagine their enticing descriptions of the
> future riches and power awaiting their child while trying to make him or
> her reconsider the decision. ?Who has recognized you as a poet? Who has
> enrolled you in the ranks of poets?,? the trial judge shouted at the
> Russian poet Josef Brodsky, before sentencing him to five years of hard
> labor. ?No one,? Brodsky replied. He could have been speaking for all the
> sons and daughters who had to face their parents? wrath.
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From newpoetry at mikesnider.org  Thu Aug 23 08:39:02 2012
From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 08:39:02 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <1345678401.91020.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
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	<1345678401.91020.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <B86CECFE-8A18-4AA4-B17E-BF962D4266E1@mikesnider.org>

Absolutely, Stephen ? which is why I only tried to define the kind of poetry I'm interested in. There are whole worlds of poetry about which I don't give a damn: they may be wonderful worlds, but the one I'm interested in, the one I strive to be a part of, is so vast I'll never exhaust it.

www.mikesnider.org

On Aug 22, 2012, at 19:33, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

> 
>  
> What I think is inescapable is getting any definition that captures the whole of contemporary poetics.
>  
> Instead of the above, I should have said --
>  
> What I think escapes definition is any notion that claims to define, or capture the whole of contemporary poetics.
> 
> From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
> To: New Poetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:21 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
> 
> In other words, contemporary poetics is slippery. Distinctions are often blurred. Ashbery specializes in poems that are fuzzy, where it's hard to say why they're not a type of prose.
>  
> You see, it is a little different than defining the location of your home.
> 
> 
> From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
> To: steve <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> 
> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:03 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
> 
> There you go being mean again, Bob. I certainly believe that one can define prosody and distinguish between various schools of poetry. You've done this well. What I think is inescapable is getting any definition that captures the whole of contemporary poetics. Take, for instance, the poet Russell Edson. Some of his poems are considered prose poems. Other pieces are called flash fictions. While some of the flash fictions do have characters and a narrative of sorts, there are others that do not, and for the life of me, I can't see why they're not called prose poems. The very notion of a prose poem is vague. 
> 
> From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 5:14 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
> 
> All attempts to define poetry are bound to fail. Although, Mr. Linguifiniky, your attempts to do so have been amusing.
>  
> The fact that halfwits will never accept any definition of poetry as valid does not mean no definitions of it
> are as valid as the best definitions of water or anything else.  Everything is ultimately definable enough?i.e., as
> definable as my house?s location, 1708 Hayworth Road, Port Charlotte, Florida, the validity of which can be
> demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt by a trip there  and a knock on the door, if I?m home. 
>  
> --Mr. Linguifiniky
> 
>  
> From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:58 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>  
> I?ve heard it said that ?architecture is the art of wasting space beautifully?. I don?t know who to attribute that remark to; though it may be a misquote of something Philip Johnson once said. In any case, it?s a wry remark and it makes me think that ?Poetry is art of wasting silence (or its material manifestation: the blank page)
> beautifully."
> 
> http://ursprache.blogspot.com
> .
> I like that?but I would say it?s a characterization of poetry, not a definition.
> .
> --Mr Linguifiniky
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
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From carol.dorf at gmail.com  Thu Aug 23 09:51:39 2012
From: carol.dorf at gmail.com (carol dorf)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 06:51:39 -0700
Subject: [New-Poetry] Simic on Poets & Moola
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsyQo8H-3n=M6Xx1T3XDeoj+fuN++a4b+q1fTZnF7ygpe+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CF4EB6FED1AE60-1010-B1176@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com>
	<CA+9UsyQo8H-3n=M6Xx1T3XDeoj+fuN++a4b+q1fTZnF7ygpe+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CABVBwJA74A4EoBfAn1jpkD1ydcJBodrQxm7Arzw_MTnS2W+-RQ@mail.gmail.com>

Wonderful quote -- though Simic is talking as much about his own process as
a universal "poetry is."

On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 5:26 AM, Anny Ballardini
<anny.ballardini at gmail.com>wrote:

> Ah sorry, James, I did not see your previous post and posted the same
> link.
> I love this passage:
>
> More infuriatingly, most poems are short. They give the impression it took
> no time to write them. Ten minutes tops. To write a six-hundred-page novel
> takes years. You go and work at your desk every day the way a miner goes to
> his mine and you feel as drained afterwards. Of course, that kind of work
> should be amply rewarded. A poet stands by the window watching the rain
> fall, or looks at the lock of hair of his old sweetheart, scribbles
> something down on a piece of paper and is through for the day. The most
> outrageous thing about poetry is that poems composed in such a
> lackadaisical manner end up in anthologies your kids are supposed to study
> in school. Not only that, but they may fall in love with them, memorize
> them, and try to imitate them.
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 9:53 PM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:
>
>> http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2012/aug/21/poets-and-money/
>>
>>
>>  In a country that now regards money as the highest good, doing
>> something for the love of it is not just odd, but downright perverse.
>> Imagine the horror and anger felt by parents of a son or daughter who was
>> destined for the Harvard Business School and a career in finance but
>> discovered an interest in poetry instead. Imagine their enticing
>> descriptions of the future riches and power awaiting their child while
>> trying to make him or her reconsider the decision. ?Who has recognized you
>> as a poet? Who has enrolled you in the ranks of poets?,? the trial judge
>> shouted at the Russian poet Josef Brodsky, before sentencing him to five
>> years of hard labor. ?No one,? Brodsky replied. He could have been speaking
>> for all the sons and daughters who had to face their parents? wrath.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Carol Dorf
talkingwriting.com
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From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu  Thu Aug 23 10:35:21 2012
From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 09:35:21 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Horseless Press
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsyTXF8m0_6ddu-Zxp983WGA7G+XyptpoozyyUmFpYoJuBA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9UsyTXF8m0_6ddu-Zxp983WGA7G+XyptpoozyyUmFpYoJuBA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <50363FA9.6030207@louisiana.edu>

Wow, no kidding, Anny! This is a super-lively collection--Burns's pieces 
is excellent, and there's lots more (check out C. S. Carrier and Mel 
Coyle & Jenn Marie Nunes). Thanks for sending--I didn't know Horse Less 
was still publishing, and this issue feels like good news.

Jerry



On 8/23/2012 1:58 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote:
> http://horselesspress.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/hlr12.pdf
>
> Interesting, among others, Megan Burns's visual concept
>
> -- 
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a 
> dancing star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506
jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
337-482-5478

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From jforjames at aol.com  Thu Aug 23 10:49:23 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 10:49:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Simic on Poets & Moola
In-Reply-To: <CABVBwJA74A4EoBfAn1jpkD1ydcJBodrQxm7Arzw_MTnS2W+-RQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CF4EB6FED1AE60-1010-B1176@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com>
	<CA+9UsyQo8H-3n=M6Xx1T3XDeoj+fuN++a4b+q1fTZnF7ygpe+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABVBwJA74A4EoBfAn1jpkD1ydcJBodrQxm7Arzw_MTnS2W+-RQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <8CF4F559E98993C-1D34-15AF@web-mmc-d02.sysops.aol.com>


I'm tired of Love: I'm still more tired of Rhyme. 
But Money gives me pleasure all the time. 
? Hilaire Belloc 


-----Original Message-----
From: carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Thu, Aug 23, 2012 10:22 am
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Simic on Poets & Moola


Wonderful quote -- though Simic is talking as much about his own process as a universal "poetry is."


On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 5:26 AM, Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote:

Ah sorry, James, I did not see your previous post and posted the same link. 
I love this passage:



More infuriatingly, most poems are short. They give the impression it took no time to write them. Ten minutes tops. To write a six-hundred-page novel takes years. You go and work at your desk every day the way a miner goes to his mine and you feel as drained afterwards. Of course, that kind of work should be amply rewarded. A poet stands by the window watching the rain fall, or looks at the lock of hair of his old sweetheart, scribbles something down on a piece of paper and is through for the day. The most outrageous thing about poetry is that poems composed in such a lackadaisical manner end up in anthologies your kids are supposed to study in school. Not only that, but they may fall in love with them, memorize them, and try to imitate them.



On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 9:53 PM,  <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:


http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2012/aug/21/poets-and-money/







 
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From jforjames at aol.com  Thu Aug 23 12:37:23 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 12:37:23 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: AWP 2013 Panel Acceptance
In-Reply-To: <1345730447.2908.YahooMailNeo@web162302.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
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Message-ID: <8CF4F64B4A48C6E-1D34-32C8@web-mmc-d02.sysops.aol.com>




I'm not participating in the panel program, but this panel is related to a poetry group I founded years ago in Northampton MA....
 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: AWP Conference <conference at awpwriter.org>
> Date: Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 5:32 PM
>
> I am pleased to inform you that 'Group 18: 25 years of Poetry, Workshop, and
> Community' has been accepted for inclusion in AWP?s 2013 Conference &
> Bookfair in Boston. We received a record 1,300 event proposals this year and
> are very excited to offer our conference attendees a full, diverse, and
> high-quality selection of events at the 2013 conference. Below you will find
> guidelines for confirming your event, a link to AWP's presenter guidelines,
> and information about how to register and make your hotel reservation.
>
> To view the tentative list and descriptions for the 2013 accepted panels,
> please visit http://www.awpwriter.org/awp_conference/schedule
>
> To view the list of 2013 featured presenters, visit
> http://awpwriter.org/awp_conference/featured_presenters
>
> The committee worked very hard to shape a diverse schedule for 2013, with
> the best possible balance among genres, presenters, and topics. Every year
> there are a number of high quality events that have to be left off the
> schedule due to space considerations. Although the pool of submissions was
> more competitive than it has ever been, we did our best to ensure that the
> conference belongs to AWP's numerous and varied constituencies. For Boston,
> we tentatively accepted 516 events representing 1980 panelists. Of these,
> 1152 (58%) are women, and 828 (42%) are men.
>
> Please make note of the following information as you prepare for the
> conference event for which you are listed as organizer:
>
> EVENT CONFIRMATION
> All events must be confirmed via email to conference at awpwriter.org no later
> than September 1, 2012. Your event confirmation must be received by this
> date for your event to be included in the conference program. Should you
> fail confirm your event, AWP reserves the right to remove your event from
> the 2013 schedule.
>
> REVISIONS TO YOUR EVENT
> Please take a moment to review the details of your event below. Any changes
> you wish to make to your event must be sent to conference at awpwriter.org no
> later than September 1, 2012. Changes to your event will not be accepted by
> post or fax. AWP reserves the right to deny any changes to your proposal.
> Please keep in mind that your event was accepted based on the information
> provided in your proposal, and should your event change substantially from
> the original proposal it may be removed from the 2013 schedule. AWP reserved
> the right to make edits to the grammar and formatting of both your event
> description and title.
>
> When reviewing your event information, please keep in mind that event
> participants may only be included in two conference events, only one of
> which may be a reading. If one of your participants is included on more than
> two conference events or more than one reading, he or she will be required
> to step down from all events to which they have overcommitted. If a panelist
> chooses to step down from your event, you will be allowed to select a
> replacement.
>
> Accepted Event:
> Event Title: Group 18: 25 years of Poetry, Workshop, and Community
> Event Organizer: Missy-Marie Montgomery
>
> Event Participants:
>  1. Margaret Lloyd
>  2. Doug Anderson
>  3. Richard Michelson
>  4. Anne Woodhull
>  5. Bill O'Connell
>
> Event Description: Group 18, a poetry group based in Northampton,
> Massachusetts, founded originally by Jack Gilbert, Linda Gregg, and Jim
> Finnegan began meeting weekly over 25 years ago.  Many of its early members
> are still active. This past year, to celebrate the group?s 25th anniversary,
> Open Field Press published an anthology of its members, past and present.
> This event will include a reading of poets in the anthology, a discussion of
> Group 18?s methodology, and the group?s contribution to the Northampton
> area.
>
> CONTACT YOUR EVENT PARTICIPANTS
> As organizer, you are responsible for this event and will serve as the
> liaison between AWP and your event?s participants. AWP will contact your
> participants with acceptance emails, but we also ask you to contact them at
> this time to make sure they?re aware of your event?s acceptance. In order to
> provide our attendees with well-executed events, we ask that you familiarize
> yourself with AWP's presenter guidelines, carefully plan your event
> discussions and readings, communicate with your participants, and develop an
> outline of how you intend your event to be conducted.
>
> AUDIO-VISUAL REQUESTS
> All meeting rooms will be equipped with the required number of microphones.
> We cannot accept additional AV requests beyond those made with your original
> proposal. While your AV request is noted below, this confirmation does not
> guarantee that the request will be met. As we review all requests, we will
> be in touch with you if we identify a problem. If you do not hear from us by
> December 1, 2012, your AV request will be filled as requested.
>
> Requested AV Equipment:
>
>
> PRESENTER GUIDELINES
> Please review our presenter guidelines to ensure that you have all necessary
> information and policies for your presentation in Boston. If you have any
> questions regarding these policies, or are concerned that you may not be
> able to fulfill your responsibility as a participant, please don?t hesitate
> to contact us. Our presenter guidelines can be found at
> http://awpwriter.org/awp_conference/proposal_submissions_acceptances
>
> REGISTRATION
> All event participants must register for the conference. At this time,
> participants may register at the reduced presenter registration rate. To
> register, please visit
> http://www.awpwriter.org/awp_conference/registration_overview. Be prepared
> to provide the title of your event in order to receive our presenter rate.
>
> HOTEL ACCOMMODATIONS
> We encourage you to make hotel arrangements at your earliest convenience, as
> our conference hotels sell out months in advance. AWP?s conference hotels
> are currently offering discount lodging for single and double occupancy
> rooms. Make your reservations early to avoid disappointment. AWP?s bookfair
> will be held at the Hynes Convention Center, which is adjacent to the
> Sheraton Boston Hotel. For information on reserving your room, visit
> http://www.awpwriter.org/awp_conference/hotel_travel_presenters
>
> We?re happy to have you take part in the 2013 Conference & Bookfair. If you
> have questions or concerns, please don?t hesitate to contact us. We look
> forward to seeing you in Boston.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Christian Teresi
> Director of Conferences
> conference at awpwriter.org
> 703-993-4317
> www.facebook.com/AWPWriter
> www.awpwriter.org/awp_conference/overview
>
> 2013 AWP Annual Conference & Bookfair ? Boston, MA
> March 6-March 9, 2013
> Hynes Convention Center &  Sheraton Boston Hotel
>



 
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From halvard at gmail.com  Thu Aug 23 12:44:46 2012
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 11:44:46 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] Simic on Poets & Moola
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsyQo8H-3n=M6Xx1T3XDeoj+fuN++a4b+q1fTZnF7ygpe+Q@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CF4EB6FED1AE60-1010-B1176@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com>
	<CA+9UsyQo8H-3n=M6Xx1T3XDeoj+fuN++a4b+q1fTZnF7ygpe+Q@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CANrCfqEY2ZBCLOUFTQ1dmfte1N9iEVDiRgPqwqVG2t3gF10BFA@mail.gmail.com>

Most poems aren't short enough. Infuriating?


Mastering this universe one Higgs boson at a time.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com

On Barcelona <http://onbarcelona.blogspot.com/> (submissions sought; email
to my address above)
Truck: http://halvard-johnson.blogspot.mx/
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
Remains To Be Seen <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>*, Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. II) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>,** Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. III) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Sonnets
from the Basque & Other Poems <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>
*, *Mainly Black <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Obras
P?blicas <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **The Perfection
of Mozart's Third Eye and Other
Sonnets<http://www.scribd.com/doc/27039868/Halvard-Johnson-THE-PERFECTION-OF-MOZART-S-THIRD-EYE-Other-Sonnets>
; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of
Clones<http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Entrance-Clones-Halvard-Johnson/dp/0965404390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283182804&sr=8-1>
; **Tango Bouquet <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **Theory
of Harmony<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall04/theory1.pdf>
; **Rapsodie espagnole<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/rapsodi.pdf>
; **Guide to the Tokyo
Subway<http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Tokyo-Subway-Other-Poems/dp/0971487316/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283183153&sr=1-3>
; **The Sonnet Project<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/hsonnet.pdf>
; **G(e)nome <http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall03/genome.pdf>; **Winter
Journey <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.winter.html>;
**Eclipse<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.eclipse.html>
; **The Dance of the Red Swan <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.dance.html>
; **Transparencies & Projections<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.transp.html>
*




On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 7:26 AM, Anny Ballardini
<anny.ballardini at gmail.com>wrote:

> Ah sorry, James, I did not see your previous post and posted the same
> link.
> I love this passage:
>
> More infuriatingly, most poems are short. They give the impression it took
> no time to write them. Ten minutes tops. To write a six-hundred-page novel
> takes years. You go and work at your desk every day the way a miner goes to
> his mine and you feel as drained afterwards. Of course, that kind of work
> should be amply rewarded. A poet stands by the window watching the rain
> fall, or looks at the lock of hair of his old sweetheart, scribbles
> something down on a piece of paper and is through for the day. The most
> outrageous thing about poetry is that poems composed in such a
> lackadaisical manner end up in anthologies your kids are supposed to study
> in school. Not only that, but they may fall in love with them, memorize
> them, and try to imitate them.
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 9:53 PM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:
>
>> http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2012/aug/21/poets-and-money/
>>
>>
>>  In a country that now regards money as the highest good, doing
>> something for the love of it is not just odd, but downright perverse.
>> Imagine the horror and anger felt by parents of a son or daughter who was
>> destined for the Harvard Business School and a career in finance but
>> discovered an interest in poetry instead. Imagine their enticing
>> descriptions of the future riches and power awaiting their child while
>> trying to make him or her reconsider the decision. ?Who has recognized you
>> as a poet? Who has enrolled you in the ranks of poets?,? the trial judge
>> shouted at the Russian poet Josef Brodsky, before sentencing him to five
>> years of hard labor. ?No one,? Brodsky replied. He could have been speaking
>> for all the sons and daughters who had to face their parents? wrath.
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From jforjames at aol.com  Thu Aug 23 13:42:43 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 13:42:43 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] DB Johnson portraits of artists
Message-ID: <8CF4F6DD56394EC-1FC8-596C@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com>


Here's a site featuring some portrait illustrations of poets and other artists....


http://www.henryhikes.com/illustration/portraits/portraits.html

Tad Richards seems to have gone underground but I know he did a whole series of poet sketches.

Finnegan



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From amyhappens at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 23 14:07:43 2012
From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 11:07:43 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Two New Books from Birds, LLC
Message-ID: <1345745263.80909.YahooMailNeo@web180806.mail.gq1.yahoo.com>

From:?Birds Editor?<editor at birdsllc.com>


Friends,

We?re crazy excited to announce our next two titles,?Rise in the Fall, by Ana Bo?i?evi? (Fall 2012), and?The?First Four Books of Sampson Starkweather, by Sampson Starkweather (Winter 2013).
A few words about these amazing books, as well as videos of?Ana?and?Sampson?reading from their work:

Ana Bo?i?evi? is both a poet's poet and the people's poet.?Rise in the Fall, her second full-length collection, is a revolutionary book and an ars poetica for the polis in which she excludes nothing. Navigating literary history, gender, sexuality, economics, family and friends, she is at ease employing both the universal political statement and the lyric "I". A Croatian ?migr?, Bo?i?evi? approaches the English language with a playful objectivity, bouncing back and forth from the conversational to the grand: "This is the whitest shit / I've ever written" she notes in her half-myth "About Nietzsche." Her critique of our time and place is at once empathetic and crude, tender and grotesque. Lucky for us, "beauty [wins] in all its casual terror and pain."

Written over ten years,?The First Four Books of Sampson Starkweather?is surreal but always grounded in the life of the poet. Comprised of experimental translations, emails, dreams, spells, prose, advice, and mythologies (among other things), these poems transform and steal from literary history, current events, technology, and the world. Just as Starkweather questions what makes a poem, his first book completely questions and reinterprets what a first book?or any book?of poems can be.

Love,

the Editors
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 23 14:56:51 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 11:56:51 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Simic on Poets & Moola
In-Reply-To: <CANrCfqEY2ZBCLOUFTQ1dmfte1N9iEVDiRgPqwqVG2t3gF10BFA@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CF4EB6FED1AE60-1010-B1176@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com>
	<CA+9UsyQo8H-3n=M6Xx1T3XDeoj+fuN++a4b+q1fTZnF7ygpe+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANrCfqEY2ZBCLOUFTQ1dmfte1N9iEVDiRgPqwqVG2t3gF10BFA@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1345748211.56564.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

the way a miner goes to his mine and you feel as drained afterwards. 
?
... Is fiction that tough?
?
A poet stands by the window watching the rain fall ...
?
... What fool would choose the former over ???... scribble something down on a piece of paper and is through for the day ...


________________________________
From: Halvard Johnson <halvard at gmail.com>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Simic on Poets & Moola


Most poems aren't short enough. Infuriating??

?? ?

Mastering this universe one Higgs boson at a time.

Hal
Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com

On Barcelona (submissions sought; email to my address above)
Truck:?http://halvard-johnson.blogspot.mx/
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/
http://www.hamiltonstone.org/
https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/



Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan;?Transparencies & Projections




On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 7:26 AM, Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote:

Ah sorry, James, I did not see your previous post and posted the same link.? 
>I love this passage:
>
>
>More infuriatingly, most poems are short. They give the impression it took no time to write them. Ten minutes tops. To write a six-hundred-page novel takes years. You go and work at your desk every day the way a miner goes to his mine and you feel as drained afterwards. Of course, that kind of work should be amply rewarded. A poet stands by the window watching the rain fall, or looks at the lock of hair of his old sweetheart, scribbles something down on a piece of paper and is through for the day. The most outrageous thing about poetry is that poems composed in such a lackadaisical manner end up in anthologies your kids are supposed to study in school. Not only that, but they may fall in love with them, memorize them, and try to imitate them.
>
>
>On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 9:53 PM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:
>
>http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2012/aug/21/poets-and-money/ 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>In a country that now regards money as the highest good, doing something for the love of it is not just odd, but downright perverse. Imagine the horror and anger felt by parents of a son or daughter who was destined for the Harvard Business School and a career in finance but discovered an interest in poetry instead. Imagine their enticing descriptions of the future riches and power awaiting their child while trying to make him or her reconsider the decision. ?Who has recognized you as a poet? Who has enrolled you in the ranks of poets?,? the trial judge shouted at the Russian poet Josef Brodsky, before sentencing him to five years of hard labor. ?No one,? Brodsky replied. He could have been speaking for all the sons and daughters who had to face their parents? wrath.
>>_______________________________________________
>>New-Poetry mailing list
>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
>
>-- 
>Anny Ballardini
>http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
>Friedrich Nietzsche
>
>? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>Giovenale
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 23 15:01:09 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 12:01:09 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Simic on Poets & Moola
In-Reply-To: <1345748211.56564.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <8CF4EB6FED1AE60-1010-B1176@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com>
	<CA+9UsyQo8H-3n=M6Xx1T3XDeoj+fuN++a4b+q1fTZnF7ygpe+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CANrCfqEY2ZBCLOUFTQ1dmfte1N9iEVDiRgPqwqVG2t3gF10BFA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1345748211.56564.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1345748469.16999.YahooMailNeo@web162502.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

In past centuries, they could hope for a dinner invitation from some noblemen holed up in his castle to entertain his drunken guests, or even receive a piece of land from the king after writing a paean to his various conquests and massacres.
?
... not bad work when it's available. 


________________________________
From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Simic on Poets & Moola


the way a miner goes to his mine and you feel as drained afterwards. 
?
... Is fiction that tough?
?
A poet stands by the window watching the rain fall ...
?
... What fool would choose the former over ???... scribble something down on a piece of paper and is through for the day ...


________________________________
From: Halvard Johnson <halvard at gmail.com>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Simic on Poets & Moola


Most poems aren't short enough. Infuriating??

?? ?

Mastering this universe one Higgs boson at a time.

Hal
Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com

On Barcelona (submissions sought; email to my address above)
Truck:?http://halvard-johnson.blogspot.mx/
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/
http://www.hamiltonstone.org/
https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/



Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan;?Transparencies & Projections




On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 7:26 AM, Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote:

Ah sorry, James, I did not see your previous post and posted the same link.? 
>I love this passage:
>
>
>More infuriatingly, most poems are short. They give the impression it took no time to write them. Ten minutes tops. To write a six-hundred-page novel takes years. You go and work at your desk every day the way a miner goes to his mine and you feel as drained afterwards. Of course, that kind of work should be amply rewarded. A poet stands by the window watching the rain fall, or looks at the lock of hair of his old sweetheart, scribbles something down on a piece of paper and is through for the day. The most outrageous thing about poetry is that poems composed in such a lackadaisical manner end up in anthologies your kids are supposed to study in school. Not only that, but they may fall in love with them, memorize them, and try to imitate them.
>
>
>On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 9:53 PM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:
>
>http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2012/aug/21/poets-and-money/ 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>In a country that now regards money as the highest good, doing something for the love of it is not just odd, but downright perverse. Imagine the horror and anger felt by parents of a son or daughter who was destined for the Harvard Business School and a career in finance but discovered an interest in poetry instead. Imagine their enticing descriptions of the future riches and power awaiting their child while trying to make him or her reconsider the decision. ?Who has recognized you as a poet? Who has enrolled you in the ranks of poets?,? the trial judge shouted at the Russian poet Josef Brodsky, before sentencing him to five years of hard labor. ?No one,? Brodsky replied. He could have been speaking for all the sons and daughters who had to face their parents? wrath.
>>_______________________________________________
>>New-Poetry mailing list
>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
>
>-- 
>Anny Ballardini
>http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
>Friedrich Nietzsche
>
>? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>Giovenale
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>

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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 23 15:22:37 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 12:22:37 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <A248309631884300AA25AC8280FF03BD@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><1345676590.80578.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.bf1.y
	ahoo.com><1345677678.99293.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<8CF4EDBCEDCAAC4-1794-CA7D8@webmail-d158.sysops.aol.com>
	<A248309631884300AA25AC8280FF03BD@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1345749757.73452.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

philogushers --
?
a classic Grumman word. 


________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 6:11 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


That?s what I mean: the idea that poetry is ethereally beyond everything else.? More complex
than a location, so long as one stays above physics, but I merely used location to show that 
everything is ultimately impossible to pin down absolutely.? 

Also, Finnegan, you?re talking?I?m sure--about defining poetic beauty, not poetry, which is
just a bunch of words.? Poetic beauty is much harder to define that poetry, but definable, 
though not in words philogushers would accept.

--Bob

From: jforjames at aol.com 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:17 PM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
Defining poetry is definitely harder than stating one's location. What is one's mailing address or even location in the universe? Not really useful unless you know what the universe is. The universe of poetry is mind-bogglingly large, more unusual than anyone can conceive, and constantly expanding, unless its recursive. 


Finnegan


-----Original Message-----
From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
To: New Poetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wed, Aug 22, 2012 7:24 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


In other words, contemporary poetics is slippery. Distinctions are often blurred. Ashbery specializes in poems that are fuzzy, where it's hard to say why they're not a type of prose. 
?
You see, it is a little different than defining the location of your home. 



________________________________
From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
To: steve <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:03 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


There you go being mean again, Bob. I certainly believe that one can define prosody and distinguish between various schools of poetry. You've done this well. What I think is inescapable is getting any definition that captures the whole of contemporary poetics. Take, for instance, the poet Russell Edson. Some of his poems are considered prose poems. Other pieces are called flash fictions. While some of the flash fictions do have characters and a narrative of sorts, there are others that do not, and for the life of me, I can't see why they're not called prose poems. The very notion of a prose poem is vague. 



________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


All attempts to define poetry are bound to fail. Although, Mr. Linguifiniky, your attempts to do so have been amusing. 
?
The fact that halfwits will never accept any definition of poetry as valid does not mean no definitions of it
are as valid as the best definitions of water or anything else.? Everything is ultimately definable enough?i.e., as
definable as my house?s location, 1708 Hayworth Road, Port Charlotte, Florida, the validity of which can be
demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt by a trip there? and a knock on the door, if I?m home.? 
?
--Mr. Linguifiniky



________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


I?ve heard it said that ?architecture is the art of wasting space beautifully?. I don?t know who to attribute that remark to; though it may be a misquote of something Philip Johnsononce said. In any case, it?s a wry remark and it makes me think that ?Poetry is art of wasting silence (or its material manifestation: the blank page) beautifully."

http://ursprache.blogspot.com/
.
I like that?but I would say it?s a characterization of poetry, not a definition.
.
--Mr Linguifiniky
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http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




________________________________
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_______________________________________________
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 23 15:21:07 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 12:21:07 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <FC3DA594DF684600AF71D8153B0461A6@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.or
	g><32E2CA260DAB4CC684114D5A717BB93E@BobHP><F6AECAE5-74FA-4FE7-928F-A400A5D31183@mikesnider.org><A5D14982D36E49AAA8E1D5AF0B54A78
	E@BobHP>
	<1345679483.61456.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<FC3DA594DF684600AF71D8153B0461A6@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1345749667.14243.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Declaims ... one rarely hears that word spoken anymore?--
?
Brutus declaimed from the steps of the Roman senate building. 


________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 6:13 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


In my linguistics, there are only prose and poetry, Stephen: one speaks prose, one declaims poetry.

--Mr. Linguifinicky

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:51 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
Saying something is a rhythmical imitation of speech is not the same thing as saying it's an imitation of prose. The spoken word is not prose. One speaks, but one also writes prose. 



________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry





From: Michael Snider 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:00 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
It's a fairly conventional definition, Bob. And imitations are not the same as the things they imitate 1?as you notice in your second sentence.

I figured ?imitation? here didn?t mean ?imitation? as I was writing my first sentence.? But 
couldn?t have said anything negative if I didn?t get it wrong.? 
?
?Rhythmical organization,? yes?but I?d call it ?rhythmical distortion of prose,? because a 
main value of it is the presentation of something familiar in a comparatively unfamiliar way.
This characterization also points to how almost everything poets do is fundamentally
a distortion of prose, a getting-away from prose for the sake of freshness.
?
Maybe like impressionist painting, which similarly organizes scenes into beat-like units?
?
--Bob
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




________________________________
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Aug 23 15:44:17 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 15:44:17 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Simic on Poets & Moola
In-Reply-To: <1345748211.56564.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <8CF4EB6FED1AE60-1010-B1176@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com><CA+9UsyQo8H-3n=M6Xx1T3XDeoj+fuN++a4b+q1fTZnF7ygpe+Q@mail.gma
	il.com><CANrCfqEY2ZBCLOUFTQ1dmfte1N9iEVDiRgPqwqVG2t3gF10BFA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1345748211.56564.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <D881B4FC7EE44808AD1660BF2E6868A5@BobHP>

Slow down, Stephen?he?s being ironic!  

--Bob

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 2:56 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Simic on Poets & Moola

the way a miner goes to his mine and you feel as drained afterwards. 

... Is fiction that tough?

A poet stands by the window watching the rain fall ...

... What fool would choose the former over ?? ... scribble something down on a piece of paper and is through for the day ...

From: Halvard Johnson <halvard at gmail.com>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Simic on Poets & Moola


Most poems aren't short enough. Infuriating? 

    


Mastering this universe one Higgs boson at a time.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com


On Barcelona (submissions sought; email to my address above)
Truck: http://halvard-johnson.blogspot.mx/
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/
http://www.hamiltonstone.org/
https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/



Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections






On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 7:26 AM, Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote:

  Ah sorry, James, I did not see your previous post and posted the same link.  
  I love this passage:

    More infuriatingly, most poems are short. They give the impression it took no time to write them. Ten minutes tops. To write a six-hundred-page novel takes years. You go and work at your desk every day the way a miner goes to his mine and you feel as drained afterwards. Of course, that kind of work should be amply rewarded. A poet stands by the window watching the rain fall, or looks at the lock of hair of his old sweetheart, scribbles something down on a piece of paper and is through for the day. The most outrageous thing about poetry is that poems composed in such a lackadaisical manner end up in anthologies your kids are supposed to study in school. Not only that, but they may fall in love with them, memorize them, and try to imitate them.

  On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 9:53 PM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:

    http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2012/aug/21/poets-and-money/ 


    In a country that now regards money as the highest good, doing something for the love of it is not just odd, but downright perverse. Imagine the horror and anger felt by parents of a son or daughter who was destined for the Harvard Business School and a career in finance but discovered an interest in poetry instead. Imagine their enticing descriptions of the future riches and power awaiting their child while trying to make him or her reconsider the decision. ?Who has recognized you as a poet? Who has enrolled you in the ranks of poets?,? the trial judge shouted at the Russian poet Josef Brodsky, before sentencing him to five years of hard labor. ?No one,? Brodsky replied. He could have been speaking for all the sons and daughters who had to face their parents? wrath.

    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry






  -- 
  Anny Ballardini
  http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
  http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
  http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
  http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
  I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
  Friedrich Nietzsche

  ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
  vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
  Giovenale



  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Aug 23 15:43:14 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 15:43:14 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <1345749667.14243.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.or
	g><32E2CA260DAB4CC684114D5A717BB93E@BobHP><F6AECAE5-74FA-4FE7-928F-A400A5D31183@mikesnider.org><A5D14982D36E49AAA8E1D5AF0B54A78
	E@BobHP><1345679483.61456.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><FC3DA594DF684600AF71D8153B0461A6@BobHP>
	<1345749667.14243.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <32CB68A845D14A0880B5737DC40670D9@BobHP>

You can?t speak it, dummy?you have to declaim it!

Mr. Linguifiniky

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:21 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

Declaims ... one rarely hears that word spoken anymore --

Brutus declaimed from the steps of the Roman senate building. 

From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 6:13 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


In my linguistics, there are only prose and poetry, Stephen: one speaks prose, one declaims poetry.

--Mr. Linguifinicky

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:51 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

Saying something is a rhythmical imitation of speech is not the same thing as saying it's an imitation of prose. The spoken word is not prose. One speaks, but one also writes prose. 


From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry




From: Michael Snider 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:00 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

It's a fairly conventional definition, Bob. And imitations are not the same as the things they imitate 1?as you notice in your second sentence.

I figured ?imitation? here didn?t mean ?imitation? as I was writing my first sentence.  But 
couldn?t have said anything negative if I didn?t get it wrong.  

?Rhythmical organization,? yes?but I?d call it ?rhythmical distortion of prose,? because a 
main value of it is the presentation of something familiar in a comparatively unfamiliar way.
This characterization also points to how almost everything poets do is fundamentally
a distortion of prose, a getting-away from prose for the sake of freshness.

Maybe like impressionist painting, which similarly organizes scenes into beat-like units?

--Bob

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



_______________________________________________
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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 23 15:56:23 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 12:56:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Simic on Poets & Moola
In-Reply-To: <D881B4FC7EE44808AD1660BF2E6868A5@BobHP>
References: <8CF4EB6FED1AE60-1010-B1176@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com><CA+9UsyQo8H-3n=M6Xx1T3XDeoj+fuN++a4b+q1fTZnF7ygpe+Q@mail.gma
	il.com><CANrCfqEY2ZBCLOUFTQ1dmfte1N9iEVDiRgPqwqVG2t3gF10BFA@mail.gmail.com>
	<1345748211.56564.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<D881B4FC7EE44808AD1660BF2E6868A5@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1345751783.13189.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Thomas Dish had a similiar column a decade or more?ago. He wasn't being ironic. Dish, a poet, noveliest, considered poets slackers. 



________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Simic on Poets & Moola


Slow down, Stephen?he?s being ironic!? 

--Bob

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 2:56 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Simic on Poets & Moola
the way a miner goes to his mine and you feel as drained afterwards. 
?
... Is fiction that tough?
?
A poet stands by the window watching the rain fall ...
?
... What fool would choose the former over ?? ... scribble something down on a piece of paper and is through for the day ...


________________________________
From: Halvard Johnson <halvard at gmail.com>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 12:44 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Simic on Poets & Moola


Most poems aren't short enough. Infuriating? 

??? 

Mastering this universe one Higgs boson at a time.

Hal
Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com

On Barcelona (submissions sought; email to my address above)
Truck: http://halvard-johnson.blogspot.mx/
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/
http://www.hamiltonstone.org/
https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/



Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections




On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 7:26 AM, Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote:

Ah sorry, James, I did not see your previous post and posted the same link.? 
>I love this passage:
>
>More infuriatingly, most poems are short. They give the impression it took no time to write them. Ten minutes tops. To write a six-hundred-page novel takes years. You go and work at your desk every day the way a miner goes to his mine and you feel as drained afterwards. Of course, that kind of work should be amply rewarded. A poet stands by the window watching the rain fall, or looks at the lock of hair of his old sweetheart, scribbles something down on a piece of paper and is through for the day. The most outrageous thing about poetry is that poems composed in such a lackadaisical manner end up in anthologies your kids are supposed to study in school. Not only that, but they may fall in love with them, memorize them, and try to imitate them.
>
>
>On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 9:53 PM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:
>
>http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2012/aug/21/poets-and-money/ 
>>
>>
>>In a country that now regards money as the highest good, doing something for the love of it is not just odd, but downright perverse. Imagine the horror and anger felt by parents of a son or daughter who was destined for the Harvard Business School and a career in finance but discovered an interest in poetry instead. Imagine their enticing descriptions of the future riches and power awaiting their child while trying to make him or her reconsider the decision. ?Who has recognized you as a poet? Who has enrolled you in the ranks of poets?,? the trial judge shouted at the Russian poet Josef Brodsky, before sentencing him to five years of hard labor. ?No one,? Brodsky replied. He could have been speaking for all the sons and daughters who had to face their parents? wrath.
>>_______________________________________________
>>New-Poetry mailing list
>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
>-- 
>Anny Ballardini
>http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
>Friedrich Nietzsche
>
>? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>Giovenale
>
>
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




________________________________
_______________________________________________
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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Thu Aug 23 15:58:46 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 12:58:46 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <32CB68A845D14A0880B5737DC40670D9@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.or
	g><32E2CA260DAB4CC684114D5A717BB93E@BobHP><F6AECAE5-74FA-4FE7-928F-A400A5D31183@mikesnider.org><A5D14982D36E49AAA8E1D5AF0B54A78
	E@BobHP><1345679483.61456.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><FC3DA594DF684600AF71D8153B0461A6@BobHP>
	<1345749667.14243.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<32CB68A845D14A0880B5737DC40670D9@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1345751926.99638.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

There you go with that word again --
?
c) declaim:to speak or write for oratorical effect, as without sincerity or sound?argument. 


________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


You can?t speak it, dummy?you have to declaim it!

Mr. Linguifiniky

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:21 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
Declaims ... one rarely hears that word spoken anymore --
?
Brutus declaimed from the steps of the Roman senate building. 


________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 6:13 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


In my linguistics, there are only prose and poetry, Stephen: one speaks prose, one declaims poetry.

--Mr. Linguifinicky

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:51 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
Saying something is a rhythmical imitation of speech is not the same thing as saying it's an imitation of prose. The spoken word is not prose. One speaks, but one also writes prose. 



________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry





From: Michael Snider 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:00 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
It's a fairly conventional definition, Bob. And imitations are not the same as the things they imitate 1?as you notice in your second sentence.

I figured ?imitation? here didn?t mean ?imitation? as I was writing my first sentence.? But 
couldn?t have said anything negative if I didn?t get it wrong.? 
?
?Rhythmical organization,? yes?but I?d call it ?rhythmical distortion of prose,? because a 
main value of it is the presentation of something familiar in a comparatively unfamiliar way.
This characterization also points to how almost everything poets do is fundamentally
a distortion of prose, a getting-away from prose for the sake of freshness.
?
Maybe like impressionist painting, which similarly organizes scenes into beat-like units?
?
--Bob
_______________________________________________
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http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




________________________________
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http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Thu Aug 23 16:09:28 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Thu, 23 Aug 2012 16:09:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <1345751926.99638.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.or
	g><32E2CA260DAB4CC684114D5A717BB93E@BobHP><F6AECAE5-74FA-4FE7-928F-A400A5D31183@mikesnider.org><A5D14982D36E49AAA8E1D5AF0B54A78
	E@BobHP><1345679483.61456.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><FC3DA594DF684600AF71D8153B0461A6@BobHP><1345749667.14243.Y
	ahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><32CB68A845D14A0880B5737DC40670D9@BobHP>
	<1345751926.99638.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <88F09F90C55A472DB140FBEBF90A5C71@BobHP>

That?s a definition of it new to me.  I suppose to don?t necessarily declaim 
free verse but my impression is you always should declaim formal verse.  Michael?

--Bob

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:58 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

There you go with that word again --

c) declaim:
to speak or write for oratorical effect, as without sincerity or sound argument. 

From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:43 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


You can?t speak it, dummy?you have to declaim it!

Mr. Linguifiniky

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:21 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

Declaims ... one rarely hears that word spoken anymore --

Brutus declaimed from the steps of the Roman senate building. 

From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 6:13 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


In my linguistics, there are only prose and poetry, Stephen: one speaks prose, one declaims poetry.

--Mr. Linguifinicky

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:51 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

Saying something is a rhythmical imitation of speech is not the same thing as saying it's an imitation of prose. The spoken word is not prose. One speaks, but one also writes prose. 


From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:31 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry




From: Michael Snider 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:00 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

It's a fairly conventional definition, Bob. And imitations are not the same as the things they imitate 1?as you notice in your second sentence.

I figured ?imitation? here didn?t mean ?imitation? as I was writing my first sentence.  But 
couldn?t have said anything negative if I didn?t get it wrong.  

?Rhythmical organization,? yes?but I?d call it ?rhythmical distortion of prose,? because a 
main value of it is the presentation of something familiar in a comparatively unfamiliar way.
This characterization also points to how almost everything poets do is fundamentally
a distortion of prose, a getting-away from prose for the sake of freshness.

Maybe like impressionist painting, which similarly organizes scenes into beat-like units?

--Bob

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



_______________________________________________
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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


_______________________________________________
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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Fri Aug 24 07:08:02 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 13:08:02 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Simic on Poets & Moola
In-Reply-To: <8CF4F559E98993C-1D34-15AF@web-mmc-d02.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CF4EB6FED1AE60-1010-B1176@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com>
	<CA+9UsyQo8H-3n=M6Xx1T3XDeoj+fuN++a4b+q1fTZnF7ygpe+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABVBwJA74A4EoBfAn1jpkD1ydcJBodrQxm7Arzw_MTnS2W+-RQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<8CF4F559E98993C-1D34-15AF@web-mmc-d02.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyRFSGOfhVvY3D3ECH96kTFNqLSj=Fp4Vwd552asoBTz4Q@mail.gmail.com>

Oh well, lucky lady!


On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 4:49 PM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:

> I'm tired of Love: I'm still more tired of Rhyme. ****
> But Money gives me pleasure all the time. ****
> ? Hilaire Belloc
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com>
> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Thu, Aug 23, 2012 10:22 am
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Simic on Poets & Moola
>
>  Wonderful quote -- though Simic is talking as much about his own process
> as a universal "poetry is."
>
> On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 5:26 AM, Anny Ballardini <
> anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Ah sorry, James, I did not see your previous post and posted the same
>> link.
>> I love this passage:
>>
>>  More infuriatingly, most poems are short. They give the impression it
>> took no time to write them. Ten minutes tops. To write a six-hundred-page
>> novel takes years. You go and work at your desk every day the way a miner
>> goes to his mine and you feel as drained afterwards. Of course, that kind
>> of work should be amply rewarded. A poet stands by the window watching the
>> rain fall, or looks at the lock of hair of his old sweetheart, scribbles
>> something down on a piece of paper and is through for the day. The most
>> outrageous thing about poetry is that poems composed in such a
>> lackadaisical manner end up in anthologies your kids are supposed to study
>> in school. Not only that, but they may fall in love with them, memorize
>> them, and try to imitate them.
>>
>>
>>  On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 9:53 PM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>>  http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2012/aug/21/poets-and-money/
>>>
>>>
>>>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Fri Aug 24 07:09:04 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 13:09:04 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <1345749757.73452.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
	<1345677678.99293.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<8CF4EDBCEDCAAC4-1794-CA7D8@webmail-d158.sysops.aol.com>
	<A248309631884300AA25AC8280FF03BD@BobHP>
	<1345749757.73452.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyStWtzPKzW0rGbqVPnX4W7sorZVWYoDx0qkXm25Dv0jBQ@mail.gmail.com>

and Grumman is for the original "gromman"

On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 9:22 PM, stephen russell <
poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

> philogushers --
>
> a classic Grumman word.
>
>
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Fri Aug 24 07:06:21 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 13:06:21 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Simic on Poets & Moola
In-Reply-To: <CABVBwJA74A4EoBfAn1jpkD1ydcJBodrQxm7Arzw_MTnS2W+-RQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CF4EB6FED1AE60-1010-B1176@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com>
	<CA+9UsyQo8H-3n=M6Xx1T3XDeoj+fuN++a4b+q1fTZnF7ygpe+Q@mail.gmail.com>
	<CABVBwJA74A4EoBfAn1jpkD1ydcJBodrQxm7Arzw_MTnS2W+-RQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyQg_GwYUjDpoiNLsdqPXy897TzYH5t1hQbWLFSz4wnECQ@mail.gmail.com>

I agree Carol, anyhow he does have a couple of points!


On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 3:51 PM, carol dorf <carol.dorf at gmail.com> wrote:

> Wonderful quote -- though Simic is talking as much about his own process
> as a universal "poetry is."
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 5:26 AM, Anny Ballardini <
> anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Ah sorry, James, I did not see your previous post and posted the same
>> link.
>> I love this passage:
>>
>> More infuriatingly, most poems are short. They give the impression it
>> took no time to write them. Ten minutes tops. To write a six-hundred-page
>> novel takes years. You go and work at your desk every day the way a miner
>> goes to his mine and you feel as drained afterwards. Of course, that kind
>> of work should be amply rewarded. A poet stands by the window watching the
>> rain fall, or looks at the lock of hair of his old sweetheart, scribbles
>> something down on a piece of paper and is through for the day. The most
>> outrageous thing about poetry is that poems composed in such a
>> lackadaisical manner end up in anthologies your kids are supposed to study
>> in school. Not only that, but they may fall in love with them, memorize
>> them, and try to imitate them.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 9:53 PM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>>  http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2012/aug/21/poets-and-money/
>>>
>>>
>>>  In a country that now regards money as the highest good, doing
>>> something for the love of it is not just odd, but downright perverse.
>>> Imagine the horror and anger felt by parents of a son or daughter who was
>>> destined for the Harvard Business School and a career in finance but
>>> discovered an interest in poetry instead. Imagine their enticing
>>> descriptions of the future riches and power awaiting their child while
>>> trying to make him or her reconsider the decision. ?Who has recognized you
>>> as a poet? Who has enrolled you in the ranks of poets?,? the trial judge
>>> shouted at the Russian poet Josef Brodsky, before sentencing him to five
>>> years of hard labor. ?No one,? Brodsky replied. He could have been speaking
>>> for all the sons and daughters who had to face their parents? wrath.
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Anny Ballardini
>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
>> star!
>> Friedrich Nietzsche
>>
>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
>> Giovenale
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Carol Dorf
> talkingwriting.com
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Aug 24 09:32:19 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 09:32:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsyStWtzPKzW0rGbqVPnX4W7sorZVWYoDx0qkXm25Dv0jBQ@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD69
	4B6F3657C6B@BobHP><1345677678.99293.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><8CF4EDBCEDCAAC4-1794-CA7D8@webmail-d158.sysops.a
	ol.com><A248309631884300AA25AC8280FF03BD@BobHP><1345749757.73452.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<CA+9UsyStWtzPKzW0rGbqVPnX4W7sorZVWYoDx0qkXm25Dv0jBQ@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <AC31AAB541B04C429D0A76A265531A13@BobHP>


and Grumman is for the original "gromman"


Just a minute, Ballet-Dingy! The original was ?Grow,Man!? the only name to include punctuation marks.
We changed it to ?Grumman? due to persecution.  (The poetry establishment was much more
powerful back in 402 A.D.)

On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 9:22 PM, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

  philogushers --

  a classic Grumman word. 



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From newpoetry at mikesnider.org  Fri Aug 24 11:37:46 2012
From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 11:37:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <88F09F90C55A472DB140FBEBF90A5C71@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP> <1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
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	ahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
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Message-ID: <E02D3110-46C1-455C-A65E-B99CCB959EF6@mikesnider.org>

Bob, I can't imagine declaiming my poems. Remember that my definition of "the kind of poetry I'm interested in" is "rhythmically organized imitation of speech," so when I read or recite my poems I try to speak in as natural a way as possible either in my own voice or in the voice or voices of my imagined speakers. When there's no mic I speak loudly, but I can be damn loud without distorting my tone and diction. I really don't know where you got the idea that formal poetry should be spoken unnaturally ? from recordings of Tennyson? His diction is formal, but that's a class thing, not a poetry thing. And remember that Wordsworth said a poet is "a man speaking to men."

www.mikesnider.org

On Aug 23, 2012, at 16:09, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

> That?s a definition of it new to me.  I suppose to don?t necessarily declaim
> free verse but my impression is you always should declaim formal verse.  Michael?
>  
> --Bob
>  
> From: stephen russell
> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:58 PM
> To: NewPoetry List
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>  
> There you go with that word again --
>  
> c) declaim:
> to speak or write for oratorical effect, as without sincerity or sound argument.
>  
> From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:43 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>  
> You can?t speak it, dummy?you have to declaim it!
>  
> Mr. Linguifiniky
>  
> From: stephen russell
> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:21 PM
> To: NewPoetry List
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>  
> Declaims ... one rarely hears that word spoken anymore --
>  
> Brutus declaimed from the steps of the Roman senate building.
>  
> From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
> Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 6:13 AM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>  
> In my linguistics, there are only prose and poetry, Stephen: one speaks prose, one declaims poetry.
>  
> --Mr. Linguifinicky
>  
> From: stephen russell
> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:51 PM
> To: NewPoetry List
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>  
> Saying something is a rhythmical imitation of speech is not the same thing as saying it's an imitation of prose. The spoken word is not prose. One speaks, but one also writes prose. 
>  
> From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>  
>  
>  
> From: Michael Snider
> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:00 PM
> To: NewPoetry List
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>  
> It's a fairly conventional definition, Bob. And imitations are not the same as the things they imitate 1?as you notice in your second sentence.
> 
> I figured ?imitation? here didn?t mean ?imitation? as I was writing my first sentence.  But
> couldn?t have said anything negative if I didn?t get it wrong. 
>  
> ?Rhythmical organization,? yes?but I?d call it ?rhythmical distortion of prose,? because a
> main value of it is the presentation of something familiar in a comparatively unfamiliar way.
> This characterization also points to how almost everything poets do is fundamentally
> a distortion of prose, a getting-away from prose for the sake of freshness.
>  
> Maybe like impressionist painting, which similarly organizes scenes into beat-like units?
>  
> --Bob
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
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> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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> 
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> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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> 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Aug 24 12:30:37 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 12:30:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <E02D3110-46C1-455C-A65E-B99CCB959EF6@mikesnider.org>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF
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	Neo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><88F09F90C55A472DB140FBEBF90A5C71@BobHP>
	<E02D3110-46C1-455C-A65E-B99CCB959EF6@mikesnider.org>
Message-ID: <6D9DF2811E1643B1B98DF090016353DF@BobHP>

I forgot the word ?recite.?  But I feel a poet has to do something when orally presenting his poetry to make his meter known 
because I think the first value of formal (by which I mean metrical) verse is to turn reality into art.  Maybe natural recitation 
will allow the unnatural metrics to accomplish that.

I would add that what I said is due to my reaction against actors who try to make Shakespeare sound like everyday speech.  
Shakespeare, I believe, needs to be declaimed for best effect.  Wordsworth?s best poems, too.  Despite his saying.  
Complex subject, of course.  I think all poems need to be artificial and recognized as such by ear and mind.  Otherwise
the poet is just repeating reality.  On the other hand, that seems to be all many poets want to do.

--Bob

From: Michael Snider 
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 11:37 AM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

Bob, I can't imagine declaiming my poems. Remember that my definition of "the kind of poetry I'm interested in" is "rhythmically organized imitation of speech," so when I read or recite my poems I try to speak in as natural a way as possible either in my own voice or in the voice or voices of my imagined speakers. When there's no mic I speak loudly, but I can be damn loud without distorting my tone and diction. I really don't know where you got the idea that formal poetry should be spoken unnaturally ? from recordings of Tennyson? His diction is formal, but that's a class thing, not a poetry thing. And remember that Wordsworth said a poet is "a man speaking to men."

www.mikesnider.org

On Aug 23, 2012, at 16:09, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


  That?s a definition of it new to me.  I suppose to don?t necessarily declaim 
  free verse but my impression is you always should declaim formal verse.  Michael?

  --Bob

  From: stephen russell 
  Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:58 PM
  To: NewPoetry List 
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

  There you go with that word again --

  c) declaim:
  to speak or write for oratorical effect, as without sincerity or sound argument. 

  From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
  To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
  Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:43 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


  You can?t speak it, dummy?you have to declaim it!

  Mr. Linguifiniky

  From: stephen russell 
  Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:21 PM
  To: NewPoetry List 
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

  Declaims ... one rarely hears that word spoken anymore --

  Brutus declaimed from the steps of the Roman senate building. 

  From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
  To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
  Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 6:13 AM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


  In my linguistics, there are only prose and poetry, Stephen: one speaks prose, one declaims poetry.

  --Mr. Linguifinicky

  From: stephen russell 
  Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:51 PM
  To: NewPoetry List 
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

  Saying something is a rhythmical imitation of speech is not the same thing as saying it's an imitation of prose. The spoken word is not prose. One speaks, but one also writes prose. 


  From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
  To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
  Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:31 PM
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry




  From: Michael Snider 
  Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:00 PM
  To: NewPoetry List 
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

  It's a fairly conventional definition, Bob. And imitations are not the same as the things they imitate 1?as you notice in your second sentence.

  I figured ?imitation? here didn?t mean ?imitation? as I was writing my first sentence.  But 
  couldn?t have said anything negative if I didn?t get it wrong.  

  ?Rhythmical organization,? yes?but I?d call it ?rhythmical distortion of prose,? because a 
  main value of it is the presentation of something familiar in a comparatively unfamiliar way.
  This characterization also points to how almost everything poets do is fundamentally
  a distortion of prose, a getting-away from prose for the sake of freshness.

  Maybe like impressionist painting, which similarly organizes scenes into beat-like units?

  --Bob

  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



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From newpoetry at mikesnider.org  Fri Aug 24 13:18:00 2012
From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 13:18:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <6D9DF2811E1643B1B98DF090016353DF@BobHP>
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www.mikesnider.org

On Aug 24, 2012, at 12:30, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

> I forgot the word ?recite.?  But I feel a poet has to do something when orally presenting his poetry to make his meter known
> because I think the first value of formal (by which I mean metrical) verse is to turn reality into art.  Maybe natural recitation
> will allow the unnatural metrics to accomplish that.
>  

Well-made metrical verse doesn't need any special emphasis or diction for the meter to be heard.

> I would add that what I said is due to my reaction against actors who try to make Shakespeare sound like everyday speech. 
> Shakespeare, I believe, needs to be declaimed for best effect. 

Just how would you declaim "What, my tongue in your tail?" Of course, Shrew isn't all pentameter.

I agree that actors (bad ones) sometimes try to bury the meter - but that is a distortion of the text. Speaking naturally, the meter does its work.


> Wordsworth?s best poems, too.  Despite his saying. 
> Complex subject, of course.  I think all poems need to be artificial and recognized as such by ear and mind.  Otherwise
> the poet is just repeating reality.  On the other hand, that seems to be all many poets want to do.
>  

Any poem is a work of artifice - but sometimes part of the artifice of making metrical verse is to make it sound as if someone might actually have spoken the lines.  Now, Yeats always read in such a way that the meter was obvious - he said he'd worked damned hard to put it in and he was going to make sure it was noticed - but to my ear he sometimes sounds like a parody of himself. The music is there without any need for affectation.


> --Bob
>  
> 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Aug 24 14:23:37 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 14:23:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <6D94DDAE-7F72-401D-AD78-96486DF0F335@mikesnider.org>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF
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	E@BobHP><1345679483.61456.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><FC3DA594DF684600AF71D8153B0461A6@BobHP><1345749667.14243.Y
	ahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><32CB68A845D14A0880B5737DC40670D9@BobHP><1345751926.99638.YahooMail
	Neo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><88F09F90C55A472DB140FBEBF90A5C71@BobHP><E02D3110-46C1-455C-A65E-B99CCB959EF6@mikesnider.org><
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Message-ID: <462EFA8288714A49880C8B6610C390EF@BobHP>

Well, until I write my treatise on meter, I?ll just say I?m with Yeats.  And that Shakespeare has lots 
of prose, which should be spoken fairly naturally (although I think all good actors speak
appropriately unnaturally), and bad meter the actor has to put up with?and that I would
pronounce ?tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow? ?to MAH row AND to Mah row AND
to MAH row/ CREEPS in this PET ty PACE to THE last SYL lable (slurred) OF/ re CORD ed TIME.?
It will bother those unaccustomed to it the way sung dialogue in a musical seems wrong to a kid
but once you get used to it, it?s majestic.  But I?m certainly in a minority here, and have
nothing against the democratic way of recitation, just like the aristocratic way better.

--Bob


From: Michael Snider 
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 1:18 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry



www.mikesnider.org

On Aug 24, 2012, at 12:30, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


  I forgot the word ?recite.?  But I feel a poet has to do something when orally presenting his poetry to make his meter known 
  because I think the first value of formal (by which I mean metrical) verse is to turn reality into art.  Maybe natural recitation 
  will allow the unnatural metrics to accomplish that.


Well-made metrical verse doesn't need any special emphasis or diction for the meter to be heard.


  I would add that what I said is due to my reaction against actors who try to make Shakespeare sound like everyday speech.  
  Shakespeare, I believe, needs to be declaimed for best effect. 

Just how would you declaim "What, my tongue in your tail?" Of course, Shrew isn't all pentameter.

I agree that actors (bad ones) sometimes try to bury the meter - but that is a distortion of the text. Speaking naturally, the meter does its work.



  Wordsworth?s best poems, too.  Despite his saying.  
  Complex subject, of course.  I think all poems need to be artificial and recognized as such by ear and mind.  Otherwise
  the poet is just repeating reality.  On the other hand, that seems to be all many poets want to do.


Any poem is a work of artifice - but sometimes part of the artifice of making metrical verse is to make it sound as if someone might actually have spoken the lines.  Now, Yeats always read in such a way that the meter was obvious - he said he'd worked damned hard to put it in and he was going to make sure it was noticed - but to my ear he sometimes sounds like a parody of himself. The music is there without any need for affectation.



  --Bob





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From newpoetry at mikesnider.org  Fri Aug 24 15:18:49 2012
From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 15:18:49 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <462EFA8288714A49880C8B6610C390EF@BobHP>
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Message-ID: <CB67ECBA-115B-423C-AA90-35E49A1F208A@mikesnider.org>


On Aug 24, 2012, at 14:23, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

> Well, until I write my treatise on meter, I?ll just say I?m with Yeats.  And that Shakespeare has lots
> of prose, which should be spoken fairly naturally (although I think all good actors speak
> appropriately unnaturally), and bad meter the actor has to put up with?and that I would
> pronounce ?tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow? ?to MAH row AND to Mah row AND
> to MAH row/ CREEPS in this PET ty PACE to THE last SYL lable (slurred) OF/ re CORD ed TIME.?
> It will bother those unaccustomed to it the way sung dialogue in a musical seems wrong to a kid
> but once you get used to it, it?s majestic. 

It's not majestic, Bob ? it's silly, it's ugly, and it's wrong. All that matters in an accentual-syllabic line is the pattern of relative stress between syllables in the same foot. In neither place does "and" have nor should it be given the same stress as the middle syllable of "tomorrow" ? it only needs to be stressed more, however slightly more, than the last syllable of "tomorrow."  Here are the feet of the first line, five perfect iambs and an unaccented extra-metrical syllable (some would call the last foot an amphibrach [short-long-short], but that really only works for languages with quantity-based meters): 

To-morr'/ow and' / to-morr'/ow and' / to-morr'/ow 

You skipped part of a line to get to the "last syllable" stuff  ?  The line is actually trochee / iamb / iamb / iamb / iamb:

Creeps' in / this pet' / ty pace' / from day' / to day'

and the third line should be anapest / trochee / iamb / iamb / iamb.There's no need to slur anything, and stressing "the"  is just ludicrous.

To the last' / syl'la / ble of' / record' / ed time.'

There are no unusual metrical substitutions in the three lines; it's bog-standard IP except for the density of substitutions, something sometimes done to "imitate" a disordered mind.


Maniacal Meter Man Mike
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 24 15:29:31 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 12:29:31 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <AC31AAB541B04C429D0A76A265531A13@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD69
	4B6F3657C6B@BobHP><1345677678.99293.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><8CF4EDBCEDCAAC4-1794-CA7D8@webmail-d158.sysops.a
	ol.com><A248309631884300AA25AC8280FF03BD@BobHP><1345749757.73452.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<CA+9UsyStWtzPKzW0rGbqVPnX4W7sorZVWYoDx0qkXm25Dv0jBQ@mail.gmail.com>
	<AC31AAB541B04C429D0A76A265531A13@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1345836571.74334.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

... curmudgeonly Grumbleman. 
?
?: a crusty, ill-tempered, and usually old man 

? cur?mud?geon?ly \-l?\ adjective 


________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 9:32 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry



and Grumman is for the original "gromman"


Just a minute, Ballet-Dingy! The original was ?Grow,Man!? the only name to include punctuation marks.
We changed it to ?Grumman? due to persecution.? (The poetry establishment was much more
powerful back in 402 A.D.)

On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 9:22 PM, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

philogushers --
>?
>a classic Grumman word. 
>

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Fri Aug 24 15:35:46 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 15:35:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <CB67ECBA-115B-423C-AA90-35E49A1F208A@mikesnider.org>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF
	041DE976@mikesnider.or
	g><32E2CA260DAB4CC684114D5A717BB93E@BobHP><F6AECAE5-74FA-4FE7-928F-A400A5D31183@mikesnider.org><A5D14982D36E49AAA8E1D5AF0B54A78
	E@BobHP><1345679483.61456.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><FC3DA594DF684600AF71D8153B0461A6@BobHP>
	<1345749667.14243.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><32CB68A845D14A0880B5737DC40670D9@BobHP><1345751926.99638.YahooMail
	Neo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><88F09F90C55A472DB140FBEBF90A5C71@BobHP><E02D3110-46C1-455C-A65E-B99CCB959EF6@mikesnider.org>
	<6D9DF2811E1643B1B98DF090016353DF@BobHP><6D94DDAE-7F72-401D-AD78-96486DF0F335@mikesnider.org><462EFA8288714A49880C8B6610C390EF@
	BobHP> <CB67ECBA-115B-423C-AA90-35E49A1F208A@mikesnider.org>
Message-ID: <985A3D60BA094555B3AA18E57F28717B@BobHP>

I thought it?d be understood that MAH and AND weren?t necessarily given the same strength, Maniacal Meter Man.
I continue to go with to each his own rather than ugly versus right.  Really now, no more till my treatise.

But thanks for the ?from day to day? catch.  I?ve memorized so few lines of poetry,
I should try to make sure the few I have memorized I?ve memorized right.

pax vobiscum, RAHberTUS

From: Michael Snider 
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 3:18 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


On Aug 24, 2012, at 14:23, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


  Well, until I write my treatise on meter, I?ll just say I?m with Yeats.  And that Shakespeare has lots 
  of prose, which should be spoken fairly naturally (although I think all good actors speak
  appropriately unnaturally), and bad meter the actor has to put up with?and that I would
  pronounce ?tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow? ?to MAH row AND to Mah row AND
  to MAH row/ CREEPS in this PET ty PACE to THE last SYL lable (slurred) OF/ re CORD ed TIME.?
  It will bother those unaccustomed to it the way sung dialogue in a musical seems wrong to a kid
  but once you get used to it, it?s majestic. 


It's not majestic, Bob ? it's silly, it's ugly, and it's wrong. All that matters in an accentual-syllabic line is the pattern of relative stress between syllables in the same foot. In neither place does "and" have nor should it be given the same stress as the middle syllable of "tomorrow" ? it only needs to be stressed more, however slightly more, than the last syllable of "tomorrow."  Here are the feet of the first line, five perfect iambs and an unaccented extra-metrical syllable (some would call the last foot an amphibrach [short-long-short], but that really only works for languages with quantity-based meters): 

To-morr'/ow and' / to-morr'/ow and' / to-morr'/ow 

You skipped part of a line to get to the "last syllable" stuff  ?  The line is actually trochee / iamb / iamb / iamb / iamb:


Creeps' in / this pet' / ty pace' / from day' / to day'


and the third line should be anapest / trochee / iamb / iamb / iamb.There's no need to slur anything, and stressing "the"  is just ludicrous.


To the last' / syl'la / ble of' / record' / ed time.'


There are no unusual metrical substitutions in the three lines; it's bog-standard IP except for the density of substitutions, something sometimes done to "imitate" a disordered mind.




Maniacal Meter Man Mike


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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 24 15:57:58 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 12:57:58 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <6D9DF2811E1643B1B98DF090016353DF@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF
	041DE976@mikesnider.or
	g><32E2CA260DAB4CC684114D5A717BB93E@BobHP><F6AECAE5-74FA-4FE7-928F-A400A5D31183@mikesnider.org><A5D14982D36E49AAA8E1D5AF0B54A78
	E@BobHP><1345679483.61456.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><FC3DA594DF684600AF71D8153B0461A6@BobHP>
	<1345749667.14243.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><32CB68A845D14A0880B5737DC40670D9@BobHP><1345751926.99638.YahooMail
	Neo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><88F09F90C55A472DB140FBEBF90A5C71@BobHP>
	<E02D3110-46C1-455C-A65E-B99CCB959EF6@mikesnider.org>
	<6D9DF2811E1643B1B98DF090016353DF@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1345838278.38323.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Anthony Hect was comfortable reading his ornate poems in a casual voice. For special effects, or silly histrionics, or the sort of lavish reading style that Bob advocates, attend an open? mic spoken word event.
?
Double Dactyl
?


________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 12:30 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


I forgot the word ?recite.?? But I feel a poet has to do something when orally presenting his poetry to make his meter known 
because I think the first value of formal (by which I mean metrical) verse is to turn reality into art.? Maybe natural recitation 
will allow the unnatural metrics to accomplish that.

I would add that what I said is due to my reaction against actors who try to make Shakespeare sound like everyday speech.? 
Shakespeare, I believe, needs to be declaimed for best effect.? Wordsworth?s best poems, too.? Despite his saying.? 
Complex subject, of course.? I think all poems need to be artificial and recognized as such by ear and mind.? Otherwise
the poet is just repeating reality.? On the other hand, that seems to be all many poets want to do.

--Bob?
From: Michael Snider 
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 11:37 AM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
Bob, I can't imagine declaiming my poems. Remember that my definition of "the kind of poetry I'm interested in" is "rhythmically organized imitation of speech," so when I read or recite my poems I try to speak in as natural a way as possible either in my own voice or in the voice or voices of my imagined speakers. When there's no mic I speak loudly, but I can be damn loud without distorting my tone and diction. I really don't know where you got the idea that formal poetry should be spoken unnaturally ? from recordings of Tennyson? His diction is formal, but that's a class thing, not a poetry thing. And remember that Wordsworth said a poet is "a man speaking to men."

http://www.mikesnider.org/

On Aug 23, 2012, at 16:09, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


That?s a definition of it new to me.? I suppose to don?t necessarily declaim 
>free verse but my impression is you always should declaim formal verse.? Michael?
>
>--Bob?
>From: stephen russell 
>Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:58 PM
>To: NewPoetry List 
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>There you go with that word again --
>?
>c) declaim:to speak or write for oratorical effect, as without sincerity or sound?argument. 
>?
>
>________________________________
>From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
>Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:43 PM
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>
>?
>You can?t speak it, dummy?you have to declaim it!
>
>Mr. Linguifiniky?
>From: stephen russell 
>Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 3:21 PM
>To: NewPoetry List 
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>Declaims ... one rarely hears that word spoken anymore --
>?
>Brutus declaimed from the steps of the Roman senate building. 
>
>
>________________________________
>From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
>Sent: Thursday, August 23, 2012 6:13 AM
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>
>
>In my linguistics, there are only prose and poetry, Stephen: one speaks prose, one declaims poetry.
>
>--Mr. Linguifinicky
>
>From: stephen russell 
>Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:51 PM
>To: NewPoetry List 
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>Saying something is a rhythmical imitation of speech is not the same thing as saying it's an imitation of prose. The spoken word is not prose. One speaks, but one also writes prose. 
>
>
>
>________________________________
>From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
>Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:31 PM
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>
>
>
>
>
>From: Michael Snider 
>Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 7:00 PM
>To: NewPoetry List 
>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>It's a fairly conventional definition, Bob. And imitations are not the same as the things they imitate 1?as you notice in your second sentence.
>
>I figured ?imitation? here didn?t mean ?imitation? as I was writing my first sentence.? But 
>couldn?t have said anything negative if I didn?t get it wrong.? 
>?
>?Rhythmical organization,? yes?but I?d call it ?rhythmical distortion of prose,? because a 
>main value of it is the presentation of something familiar in a comparatively unfamiliar way.
>This characterization also points to how almost everything poets do is fundamentally
>a distortion of prose, a getting-away from prose for the sake of freshness.
>?
>Maybe like impressionist painting, which similarly organizes scenes into beat-like units?
>?
>--Bob
>_______________________________________________
>New-Poetry mailing list
>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>_______________________________________________
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>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>_______________________________________________
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>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>_______________________________________________
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>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>_______________________________________________
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>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
>
>________________________________
>_______________________________________________
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>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
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>

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Hecht is also notably one of the inventors of the double dactyl, a form of light verse. In his weekly on-line chat on January 22, 2008, Gene Weingarten of the Washington Post wrote a double dactyl to honor Hecht:
Higgledy Piggledy
Anthony Hecht, who could [9]
Write about death in words
Epic yet warm,
Went to his own with some
Counterintuitive
Logic; his legacy's
This stupid form.
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From newpoetry at mikesnider.org  Fri Aug 24 18:57:25 2012
From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 18:57:25 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <1345838278.38323.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
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	<348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF 041DE976@mikesnider.or g>
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	<32CB68A845D14A0880B5737DC40670D9@BobHP>
	<1345751926.99638.YahooMail Neo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<88F09F90C55A472DB140FBEBF90A5C71@BobHP>
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	<1345838278.38323.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <7A51F741-9BC7-434F-90C6-8C0E668C347A@mikesnider.org>



www.mikesnider.org

On Aug 24, 2012, at 15:57, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Anthony Hect was comfortable reading his ornate poems in a casual voice. For special effects, or silly histrionics, or the sort of lavish reading style that Bob advocates, attend an open  mic spoken word event.
>  
> Double Dactyl
>  
> Hecht is also notably one of the inventors of the double dactyl, a form of light verse. In his weekly on-line chat on January 22, 2008, Gene Weingarten of the Washington Post wrote a double dactyl to honor Hecht:
> Higgledy Piggledy
> Anthony Hecht, who could [9]
> Write about death in words
> Epic yet warm,
> Went to his own with some
> Counterintuitive
> Logic; his legacy's
> This stupid form.
> 
> 

I love double dactyls ? for a time I was obsessed with them. Here are a few:

Bippity boppety
young Willie Yeats and his
friends tried to conjure the
soul of a plant.
Madame Blavatsky cried
?William, you?re exiled since
Theosophistically?
Well, you just can?t.?

Century Schmentury
Denys The Small made an
error (of many) which
causes debate.
Sans the year Zero the
21st Century
chrono-pedantically
comes one year late.

Douglas R. Hofstadter


Higgledy Piggledy 
Douglas R. Hofstadter, 
G?del's explainer, is 
Translating verse. 
Pushkin?s Onegin?s his 
Latest adventure?he's 
Uncontrovertibly 
Under a curse. 

Higamous hogamous
Thomas Stearns Eliot
once ate at dinner a-
nonymous cheese.
Kenner explained that this
meant the great poet was
characteristically
hiding to please.


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From tomasocarthaigh at yahoo.com  Fri Aug 24 23:37:16 2012
From: tomasocarthaigh at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Tom=E1s_=D3_C=E1rthaigh?=)
Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 20:37:16 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] COMUNICADO 24-08-12: A los miembros de Poetas del
	Mundo
In-Reply-To: <3821-22012862511519359@poetas-43781183>
References: <3821-22012862511519359@poetas-43781183>
Message-ID: <1345865836.24942.YahooMailNeo@web121905.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>



Members of the Poetas del Mundo here in Ireland will be partaking in the 100,000 Poets for Change event in Tullamore, one feature of which will be the visit of activist poet Kevin Higgins to Tullamore to read from his book "Mentioning the War".

Also, a new cinepoem of Tom?s ? C?rthaigh is now online at Youtube at the following address: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcyfpKp0_JM


It tells of a trip to Porto Torres and a walk in the wild and wonderful wind!


"a person with a good book is never alone... a writer until they've written one is never at peace" 

________________________________

- www.writingsinrhyme.com??::: Add me on Facebook::: My YouTube Videos?


From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sat Aug 25 06:30:36 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 12:30:36 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <7A51F741-9BC7-434F-90C6-8C0E668C347A@mikesnider.org>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
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Message-ID: <CA+9UsySwQuAypeAMOE8mLnFHhCcy987f4P=14uBXd532WDLu3A@mail.gmail.com>

Michael,

why don't we ask Mr. Grossman how he reads his square roots in his
mathematical poems, does he perform them?

Yours,
Ballet-Dingely Bingely
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sat Aug 25 06:40:59 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 12:40:59 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] DB Johnson portraits of artists
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsyRQWikGOtcgi9ArNW1YpgpwsWhaWu0sXRc+=+zQyavULg@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CF4F6DD56394EC-1FC8-596C@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com>
	<CA+9UsyRQWikGOtcgi9ArNW1YpgpwsWhaWu0sXRc+=+zQyavULg@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsySgXHkRjHvoA2PEYpa8NbUwS7kQykTgPyF2RvHcfPp6wg@mail.gmail.com>

Ah ok, sorry, I got it, it takes me some time but then finally I get to
it...

On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 12:35 PM, Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com
> wrote:

> Finnegan,
>
> I think these are by D.B. Johnson:
> http://www.henryhikes.com/
>
> I think they are quite good, especially Dostoyesvsky.
> Tad is quite active on Facebook. He does not like us any more...
>
> :-(
>
> On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 7:42 PM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:
>
>> Here's a site featuring some portrait illustrations of poets and other
>> artists....
>>
>>  http://www.henryhikes.com/illustration/portraits/portraits.html
>>
>> Tad Richards seems to have gone underground but I know he did a whole
>> series of poet sketches.
>>
>> Finnegan
>>
>>
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sat Aug 25 06:35:46 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 12:35:46 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] DB Johnson portraits of artists
In-Reply-To: <8CF4F6DD56394EC-1FC8-596C@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CF4F6DD56394EC-1FC8-596C@webmail-m033.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyRQWikGOtcgi9ArNW1YpgpwsWhaWu0sXRc+=+zQyavULg@mail.gmail.com>

Finnegan,

I think these are by D.B. Johnson:
http://www.henryhikes.com/

I think they are quite good, especially Dostoyesvsky.
Tad is quite active on Facebook. He does not like us any more...

:-(

On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 7:42 PM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:

> Here's a site featuring some portrait illustrations of poets and other
> artists....
>
>  http://www.henryhikes.com/illustration/portraits/portraits.html
>
> Tad Richards seems to have gone underground but I know he did a whole
> series of poet sketches.
>
> Finnegan
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Aug 25 09:49:58 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 09:49:58 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsySwQuAypeAMOE8mLnFHhCcy987f4P=14uBXd532WDLu3A@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><32E2CA260DAB4CC684114D5A717BB93E@BobHP><F6AECAE5-7
	4FA-4FE7-928F-A400A5D31183@mikesnider.org><1345679483.61456.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><FC3DA594DF684600AF71D815
	3B0461A6@BobHP><1345749667.14243.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><32CB68A845D14A0880B5737DC40670D9@BobHP><88F09F90C55
	A472DB140FBEBF90A5C71@BobHP><E02D3110-46C1-455C-A65E-B99CCB959EF6@mikesnider.org><6D9DF2811E1643B1B98DF090016353DF@BobHP><13458
	38278.38323.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><7A51F741-9BC7-434F-90C6-8C0E668C347A@mikesnider.org>
	<CA+9UsySwQuAypeAMOE8mLnFHhCcy987f4P=14uBXd532WDLu3A@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <ADDE0A11DDAE4237920ECD79AE698222@BobHP>

I do not allow my works anywhere near the mundane zone where poems can be heard.  
I am awaiting a temple to be built in which they will be permanently displayed holographically.
People like Mr. Snider will be allowed to to do whatever they think they?re doing near
the front entrance,  but not too near.

Mr. Der GrosseMann (mit keine unlauten)

From: Anny Ballardini 
Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2012 6:30 AM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

Michael, 

why don't we ask Mr. Grossman how he reads his square roots in his mathematical poems, does he perform them?

Yours,
Ballet-Dingely Bingely





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sat Aug 25 12:22:17 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 18:22:17 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <ADDE0A11DDAE4237920ECD79AE698222@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
	<32E2CA260DAB4CC684114D5A717BB93E@BobHP>
	<1345679483.61456.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<1345749667.14243.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<32CB68A845D14A0880B5737DC40670D9@BobHP>
	<E02D3110-46C1-455C-A65E-B99CCB959EF6@mikesnider.org>
	<6D9DF2811E1643B1B98DF090016353DF@BobHP>
	<7A51F741-9BC7-434F-90C6-8C0E668C347A@mikesnider.org>
	<CA+9UsySwQuAypeAMOE8mLnFHhCcy987f4P=14uBXd532WDLu3A@mail.gmail.com>
	<ADDE0A11DDAE4237920ECD79AE698222@BobHP>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsySw2=+e7NED8N12PF5iNh33YQQGLdbJm1hE-jURjQcdvw@mail.gmail.com>

Ach, so wohl. Nah, ehrilich. Doch, doch, u. ich? Was soll ich tun? Und
unser Leiter, Herr James Finnegan?
Viele Gruessen von Bozen,

Katklet_Echt


On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 3:49 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:

>   I do not allow *my *works anywhere near the mundane zone where poems
> can be heard.
> I am awaiting a temple to be built in which they will be permanently
> displayed holographically.
> People like Mr. Snider will be allowed to to do whatever they think
> they?re doing near
> the front entrance,  but not too near.
>
> Mr. Der GrosseMann (mit keine unlauten)
>
>  *From:* Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 25, 2012 6:30 AM
> *To:* NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>
> Michael,
>
> why don't we ask Mr. Grossman how he reads his square roots in his
> mathematical poems, does he perform them?
>
> Yours,
> Ballet-Dingely Bingely
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sat Aug 25 12:25:12 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 18:25:12 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: AWP 2013 Panel Acceptance
In-Reply-To: <8CF4F64B4A48C6E-1D34-32C8@web-mmc-d02.sysops.aol.com>
References: <CC5AC817.94174%x@x.x>
	<CADTUCy3pwK-nbTgBfntYX12DJKLxbD5ow8uWrSqTEKgtDFuwKg@mail.gmail.com>
	<1345686124.39513.YahooMailNeo@web162305.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<CAKoC43z9KP9KdwfwrLtkNhemvbdS9CvrzybsPZ72+08PZaJT5w@mail.gmail.com>
	<1345730447.2908.YahooMailNeo@web162302.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<8CF4F64B4A48C6E-1D34-32C8@web-mmc-d02.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsySDEeq+RkhRiUsuGEq36akC2RKYoq85uvN1WHMLfXWyEw@mail.gmail.com>

Congratulations!

On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 6:37 PM, <jforjames at aol.com> wrote:

>   I'm not participating in the panel program, but this panel is related
> to a poetry group I founded years ago in Northampton MA....
>
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: AWP Conference <conference at awpwriter.org>
> > Date: Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 5:32 PM
> >
> > I am pleased to inform you that 'Group 18: 25 years of Poetry, Workshop,
> and
> > Community' has been accepted for inclusion in AWP?s 2013 Conference &
> > Bookfair in Boston. We received a record 1,300 event proposals this year
> and
> > are very excited to offer our conference attendees a full, diverse, and
> > high-quality selection of events at the 2013 conference. Below you will
> find
> > guidelines for confirming your event, a link to AWP's presenter
> guidelines,
> > and information about how to register and make your hotel reservation.
> >
> > To view the tentative list and descriptions for the 2013 accepted panels,
> > please visit http://www.awpwriter.org/awp_conference/schedule
> >
> > To view the list of 2013 featured presenters, visit
> > http://awpwriter.org/awp_conference/featured_presenters
> >
> > The committee worked very hard to shape a diverse schedule for 2013, with
> > the best possible balance among genres, presenters, and topics. Every
> year
> > there are a number of high quality events that have to be left off the
> > schedule due to space considerations. Although the pool of submissions
> was
> > more competitive than it has ever been, we did our best to ensure that
> the
> > conference belongs to AWP's numerous and varied constituencies. For
> Boston,
> > we tentatively accepted 516 events representing 1980 panelists. Of these,
> > 1152 (58%) are women, and 828 (42%) are men.
> >
> > Please make note of the following information as you prepare for the
> > conference event for which you are listed as organizer:
> >
> > EVENT CONFIRMATION
> > All events must be confirmed via email to conference at awpwriter.org no
> later
> > than September 1, 2012. Your event confirmation must be received by this
> > date for your event to be included in the conference program. Should you
> > fail confirm your event, AWP reserves the right to remove your event from
> > the 2013 schedule.
> >
> > REVISIONS TO YOUR EVENT
> > Please take a moment to review the details of your event below. Any
> changes
> > you wish to make to your event must be sent to conference at awpwriter.orgno
> > later than September 1, 2012. Changes to your event will not be accepted
> by
> > post or fax. AWP reserves the right to deny any changes to your proposal.
> > Please keep in mind that your event was accepted based on the information
> > provided in your proposal, and should your event change substantially
> from
> > the original proposal it may be removed from the 2013 schedule. AWP
> reserved
> > the right to make edits to the grammar and formatting of both your event
> > description and title.
> >
> > When reviewing your event information, please keep in mind that event
> > participants may only be included in two conference events, only one of
> > which may be a reading. If one of your participants is included on more
> than
> > two conference events or more than one reading, he or she will be
> required
> > to step down from all events to which they have overcommitted. If a
> panelist
> > chooses to step down from your event, you will be allowed to select a
> > replacement.
> >
> > Accepted Event:
> > Event Title: Group 18: 25 years of Poetry, Workshop, and Community
> > Event Organizer: Missy-Marie Montgomery
> >
> > Event Participants:
> >  1. Margaret Lloyd
> >  2. Doug Anderson
> >  3. Richard Michelson
> >  4. Anne Woodhull
> >  5. Bill O'Connell
> >
> > Event Description: Group 18, a poetry group based in Northampton,
> > Massachusetts, founded originally by Jack Gilbert, Linda Gregg, and Jim
> > Finnegan began meeting weekly over 25 years ago.  Many of its early
> members
> > are still active. This past year, to celebrate the group?s 25th
> anniversary,
> > Open Field Press published an anthology of its members, past and present.
> > This event will include a reading of poets in the anthology, a
> discussion of
> > Group 18?s methodology, and the group?s contribution to the Northampton
> > area.
> >
> > CONTACT YOUR EVENT PARTICIPANTS
> > As organizer, you are responsible for this event and will serve as the
> > liaison between AWP and your event?s participants. AWP will contact your
> > participants with acceptance emails, but we also ask you to contact them
> at
> > this time to make sure they?re aware of your event?s acceptance. In
> order to
> > provide our attendees with well-executed events, we ask that you
> familiarize
> > yourself with AWP's presenter guidelines, carefully plan your event
> > discussions and readings, communicate with your participants, and
> develop an
> > outline of how you intend your event to be conducted.
> >
> > AUDIO-VISUAL REQUESTS
> > All meeting rooms will be equipped with the required number of
> microphones.
> > We cannot accept additional AV requests beyond those made with your
> original
> > proposal. While your AV request is noted below, this confirmation does
> not
> > guarantee that the request will be met. As we review all requests, we
> will
> > be in touch with you if we identify a problem. If you do not hear from
> us by
> > December 1, 2012, your AV request will be filled as requested.
> >
> > Requested AV Equipment:
> >
> >
> > PRESENTER GUIDELINES
> > Please review our presenter guidelines to ensure that you have all
> necessary
> > information and policies for your presentation in Boston. If you have any
> > questions regarding these policies, or are concerned that you may not be
> > able to fulfill your responsibility as a participant, please don?t
> hesitate
> > to contact us. Our presenter guidelines can be found at
> > http://awpwriter.org/awp_conference/proposal_submissions_acceptances
> >
> > REGISTRATION
> > All event participants must register for the conference. At this time,
> > participants may register at the reduced presenter registration rate. To
> > register, please visit
> > http://www.awpwriter.org/awp_conference/registration_overview. Be
> prepared
> > to provide the title of your event in order to receive our presenter
> rate.
> >
> > HOTEL ACCOMMODATIONS
> > We encourage you to make hotel arrangements at your earliest
> convenience, as
> > our conference hotels sell out months in advance. AWP?s conference hotels
> > are currently offering discount lodging for single and double occupancy
> > rooms. Make your reservations early to avoid disappointment. AWP?s
> bookfair
> > will be held at the Hynes Convention Center, which is adjacent to the
> > Sheraton Boston Hotel. For information on reserving your room, visit
> > http://www.awpwriter.org/awp_conference/hotel_travel_presenters
> >
> > We?re happy to have you take part in the 2013 Conference & Bookfair. If
> you
> > have questions or concerns, please don?t hesitate to contact us. We look
> > forward to seeing you in Boston.
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Christian Teresi
> > Director of Conferences
> > conference at awpwriter.org
> > 703-993-4317
> > www.facebook.com/AWPWriter
> > www.awpwriter.org/awp_conference/overview
> >
> > 2013 AWP Annual Conference & Bookfair ? Boston, MA
> > March 6-March 9, 2013
> > Hynes Convention Center &  Sheraton Boston Hotel
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Aug 25 21:15:00 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 21:15:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsySw2=+e7NED8N12PF5iNh33YQQGLdbJm1hE-jURjQcdvw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD69
	4B6F3657C6B@BobHP><32E2CA260DAB4CC684114D5A717BB93E@BobHP><1345679483.61456.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><13457496
	67.14243.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><32CB68A845D14A0880B5737DC40670D9@BobHP><E02D3110-46C1-455C-A65E-B99CCB959EF
	6@mikesnider.org><6D9DF2811E1643B1B98DF090016353DF@BobHP><7A51F741-9BC7-434F-90C6-8C0E668C347A@mikesnider.org><CA+9UsySwQuAypeA
	MOE8mLnFHhCcy987f4P=14uBXd532WDLu3A@mail.gmail.com><ADDE0A11DDAE4237920ECD79AE698222@BobHP>
	<CA+9UsySw2=+e7NED8N12PF5iNh33YQQGLdbJm1hE-jURjQcdvw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <427BC2AC64A9420D995F4768D801BB69@BobHP>

Ich verstehen sie nicht: I used up just about all my German in my previous post (probably incorrectly).

Herr Grumman

From: Anny Ballardini 
Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2012 12:22 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

Ach, so wohl. Nah, ehrilich. Doch, doch, u. ich? Was soll ich tun? Und unser Leiter, Herr James Finnegan? 
Viele Gruessen von Bozen,

Katklet_Echt



On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 3:49 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

  I do not allow my works anywhere near the mundane zone where poems can be heard.  
  I am awaiting a temple to be built in which they will be permanently displayed holographically.
  People like Mr. Snider will be allowed to to do whatever they think they?re doing near
  the front entrance,  but not too near.

  Mr. Der GrosseMann (mit keine unlauten)

  From: Anny Ballardini 
  Sent: Saturday, August 25, 2012 6:30 AM
  To: NewPoetry List 
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

  Michael, 

  why don't we ask Mr. Grossman how he reads his square roots in his mathematical poems, does he perform them?

  Yours,
  Ballet-Dingely Bingely




------------------------------------------------------------------------------

  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry






-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! 
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Sat Aug 25 22:20:44 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2012 22:20:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Installment of My Mathpo Blog
In-Reply-To: <1345838278.38323.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.or
	g><32E2CA260DAB4CC684114D5A717BB93E@BobHP><F6AECAE5-74FA-4FE7-928F-A400A5D31183@mikesnider.org><A5D14982D36E49AAA8E1D5AF0B54A78
	E@BobHP><1345679483.61456.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><FC3DA594DF684600AF71D8153B0461A6@BobHP><1345749667.14243.Y
	ahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><32CB68A845D14A0880B5737DC40670D9@BobHP><1345751926.99638.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.
	bf1.yahoo.com><88F09F90C55A472DB140FBEBF90A5C71@BobHP><E02D3110-46C1-455C-A65E-B99CCB959EF6@mikesnider.org><6D9DF2811E1643B1B98
	DF090016353DF@BobHP>
	<1345838278.38323.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <6CCBEF5C8E6A42BC8A05CCE90B69B165@BobHP>

It?s at http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2012/08/25/mhpoetica-summerthings/ 
I think it has Important Things to say about poetry you won?t find anywhere else.
--Bob
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 02:43:48 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 08:43:48 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] How reviews and reviewers work
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyRcgcsArDGHSaMy8CEjG3btKE1uS=8Pd=2wogSSKuJPmw@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/26/business/book-reviewers-for-hire-meet-a-demand-for-online-raves.html?_r=1&pagewanted=all

-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 02:45:29 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 08:45:29 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <427BC2AC64A9420D995F4768D801BB69@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<32E2CA260DAB4CC684114D5A717BB93E@BobHP>
	<1345679483.61456.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<32CB68A845D14A0880B5737DC40670D9@BobHP>
	<6D9DF2811E1643B1B98DF090016353DF@BobHP>
	<7A51F741-9BC7-434F-90C6-8C0E668C347A@mikesnider.org>
	<ADDE0A11DDAE4237920ECD79AE698222@BobHP>
	<CA+9UsySw2=+e7NED8N12PF5iNh33YQQGLdbJm1hE-jURjQcdvw@mail.gmail.com>
	<427BC2AC64A9420D995F4768D801BB69@BobHP>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyRSdsd943WnUpP25hCTf3M2Z=pswX5xOmqUyVaCAo8FJA@mail.gmail.com>

That is fine, Bob, mine doesn't shine that high, either.
A nice Sunday, Anny

On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 3:15 AM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:

>   Ich verstehen sie nicht: I used up just about all my German in my
> previous post (probably incorrectly).
>
> Herr Grumman
>
>  *From:* Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Saturday, August 25, 2012 12:22 PM
> *To:* NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>
> Ach, so wohl. Nah, ehrilich. Doch, doch, u. ich? Was soll ich tun? Und
> unser Leiter, Herr James Finnegan?
> Viele Gruessen von Bozen,
>
> Katklet_Echt
>
>
> On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 3:49 PM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:
>
>>   I do not allow *my *works anywhere near the mundane zone where poems
>> can be heard.
>> I am awaiting a temple to be built in which they will be permanently
>> displayed holographically.
>> People like Mr. Snider will be allowed to to do whatever they think
>> they?re doing near
>> the front entrance,  but not too near.
>>
>> Mr. Der GrosseMann (mit keine unlauten)
>>
>>  *From:* Anny Ballardini <anny.ballardini at gmail.com>
>> *Sent:* Saturday, August 25, 2012 6:30 AM
>>  *To:* NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>>
>>  Michael,
>>
>> why don't we ask Mr. Grossman how he reads his square roots in his
>> mathematical poems, does he perform them?
>>
>> Yours,
>> Ballet-Dingely Bingely
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
>  ------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 03:07:50 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 09:07:50 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Sharon Olds on Vogue
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyRQ9u9fUUcptU0WM8HZT4BPnxq0z5nzs0Bdvu7X3YmUvA@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.vogue.com/culture/article/fine-print-poet-sharon-olds-chronicles-the-end-of-her-marriage-in-a-new-collection/#1

-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 03:33:39 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 09:33:39 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Installment of My Mathpo Blog
In-Reply-To: <6CCBEF5C8E6A42BC8A05CCE90B69B165@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
	<32E2CA260DAB4CC684114D5A717BB93E@BobHP>
	<F6AECAE5-74FA-4FE7-928F-A400A5D31183@mikesnider.org>
	<1345679483.61456.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<FC3DA594DF684600AF71D8153B0461A6@BobHP>
	<32CB68A845D14A0880B5737DC40670D9@BobHP>
	<88F09F90C55A472DB140FBEBF90A5C71@BobHP>
	<E02D3110-46C1-455C-A65E-B99CCB959EF6@mikesnider.org>
	<1345838278.38323.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<6CCBEF5C8E6A42BC8A05CCE90B69B165@BobHP>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyT4+RH343qpK5cwm084j1=xJVhmWGLdft5i7Z5=g7jxZA@mail.gmail.com>

What this says explicitly is ?words divided into poetry equals the
upside-down backwards representation of words.?  I claim it poetically asks
what poetry is and gives the answer as normal words multiplied by distorted
words, or words used to follow Emily Dickinson?s famous dictum that a poem
should ?tell all the truth, but tell it slant.?  I extremely believe in
telling all the truth slant, but not with her reason for doing so
(protecting mortals from the full magnitude of truth); I say a poet should
tell the truth slant to make it aesthetically fresh.


On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 4:20 AM, bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>wrote:

>   It?s at
> http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/guest-blog/2012/08/25/mhpoetica-summerthings/
>  I think it has Important Things to say about poetry you won?t find
> anywhere else.
>
>  --Bob
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 03:59:17 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 09:59:17 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] International Literature Festival: Berlin
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyQwrj-WcU_jyO_LrPTBhW=5PTNvJ+t9ae4HfKNikszjpw@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.literaturfestival.com/news/das-programmheft-ist-da


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 04:01:25 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 10:01:25 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] International Literature Festival: Berlin
In-Reply-To: <CA+9UsyQwrj-WcU_jyO_LrPTBhW=5PTNvJ+t9ae4HfKNikszjpw@mail.gmail.com>
References: <CA+9UsyQwrj-WcU_jyO_LrPTBhW=5PTNvJ+t9ae4HfKNikszjpw@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyTc3eQcCQnAfr_0q6Y006Ve9jkf=Yjc10_9Oh7aRUsFHA@mail.gmail.com>

Better, here is the link for the English page:
http://www.literaturfestival.com/?set_language=en



On Sun, Aug 26, 2012 at 9:59 AM, Anny Ballardini
<anny.ballardini at gmail.com>wrote:

> http://www.literaturfestival.com/news/das-programmheft-ist-da
>
>
> --
> Anny Ballardini
> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
> star!
> Friedrich Nietzsche
>
> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
> Giovenale
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Sun Aug 26 08:29:07 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 14:29:07 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Impressionism
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyQ0UJk6WxCuOA0BhhEd_1ui5iQvKjA1pqQ=UKWOehrs5w@mail.gmail.com>

http://www.hermitage.nl/nl/tentoonstellingen/impressionisme_sensatie_en_inspiratie/hoogtepunten_van_de_tentoonstelling.htm

-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Mon Aug 27 08:42:22 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 14:42:22 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] nice pictures
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyRAxJzeiV=vmFA0szsYrXNA6T=b0EiA9uxCqVdatskDqw@mail.gmail.com>

Nice collection of oldish pics, l'abecedaire aussi!
bibigreycat.blogspot.com

-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Mon Aug 27 09:18:03 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 15:18:03 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] Kerouac
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyRcvqDGKiX5h6B4+iECdx1kG7fwg-s05EepQBdNOd7rOA@mail.gmail.com>

Jack Kerouac?s Hand-Drawn Cover for On the Road (And More Great Culture
from Around the Web)
http://www.openculture.com/2012/08/jack_kerouacs_hand-drawn_cover_for_ion_the_roadi_and_more_great_culture_from_around_the_web.html



-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 27 14:41:03 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 11:41:03 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <7A51F741-9BC7-434F-90C6-8C0E668C347A@mikesnider.org>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
	<348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF 041DE976@mikesnider.or g>
	<32E2CA260DAB4CC684114D5A717BB93E@BobHP>
	<F6AECAE5-74FA-4FE7-928F-A400A5D31183@mikesnider.org>
	<A5D14982D36E49AAA8E1D5AF0B54A78 E@BobHP>
	<1345679483.61456.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<FC3DA594DF684600AF71D8153B0461A6@BobHP>
	<1345749667.14243.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<32CB68A845D14A0880B5737DC40670D9@BobHP>
	<1345751926.99638.YahooMail Neo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<88F09F90C55A472DB140FBEBF90A5C71@BobHP>
	<E02D3110-46C1-455C-A65E-B99CCB959EF6@mikesnider.org>
	<6D9DF2811E1643B1B98DF090016353DF@BobHP>
	<1345838278.38323.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<7A51F741-9BC7-434F-90C6-8C0E668C347A@mikesnider.org>
Message-ID: <1346092863.93160.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Higamous hogamous
?
... funny ... pig Latin ... I first came across the form while reading Leon Stokesbury. He was a graduate student at Florida State at the time. I'm talking ancient history. 
?
I enjoy light verse. Not many poets seem attracted to the form. Maybe the technical difficulties scare them. 


________________________________
From: Michael Snider <newpoetry at mikesnider.org>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 6:57 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry




http://www.mikesnider.org/

On Aug 24, 2012, at 15:57, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:


Anthony Hect was comfortable reading his ornate poems in a casual voice. For special effects, or silly histrionics, or the sort of lavish reading style that Bob advocates, attend an open? mic spoken word event.
>?
>Double Dactyl
>?
>Hecht is also notably one of the inventors of the double dactyl, a form of light verse. In his weekly on-line chat on January 22, 2008, Gene Weingarten of the Washington Post wrote a double dactyl to honor Hecht:
>Higgledy Piggledy
>Anthony Hecht, who could [9]
>Write about death in words
>Epic yet warm,
>Went to his own with some
>Counterintuitive
>Logic; his legacy's
>This stupid form.
>
>
>
>________________________________
>
>
>
I love double dactyls ? for a time I was obsessed with them. Here are a few: 


Bippity boppety
young Willie Yeats and his
friends tried to conjure the
soul of a plant.

Madame Blavatsky cried
?William, you?re exiled since
Theosophistically?
Well, you just can?t.?

Century Schmentury
Denys The Small made an
error (of many) which
causes debate.

Sans?the year Zero the
21st Century
chrono-pedantically
comes one year late.

Douglas R. Hofstadter


Higgledy Piggledy?
Douglas R. Hofstadter,?
G?del's explainer, is?
Translating verse.?
Pushkin?s Onegin?s his?
Latest adventure?he's?
Uncontrovertibly?
Under a curse.?

Higamous hogamous
Thomas Stearns Eliot
once ate at dinner a-
nonymous cheese.
Kenner explained that this
meant the great poet was
characteristically
hiding to please.


_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Aug 27 15:51:53 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 15:51:53 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <1346092863.93160.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF
	041DE976@mikesnider.or
	g><32E2CA260DAB4CC684114D5A717BB93E@BobHP><F6AECAE5-74FA-4FE7-928F-A400A5D31183@mikesnider.org><A5D14982D36E49AAA8E1D5AF0B54A78
	E@BobHP><1345679483.61456.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><FC3DA594DF684600AF71D8153B0461A6@BobHP><1345749667.14243.Y
	ahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><32CB68A845D14A0880B5737DC40670D9@BobHP><1345751926.99638.YahooMail
	Neo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><88F09F90C55A472DB140FBEBF90A5C71@BobHP><E02D3110-46C1-455C-A65E-B99CCB959EF6@mikesnider.org><
	6D9DF2811E1643B1B98DF090016353DF@BobHP><1345838278.38323.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><7A51F741-9BC7-434F-90C6-8C0
	E668C347A@mikesnider.org>
	<1346092863.93160.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <46CCD27E976C47EAA71BFC436769FF76@BobHP>



From: stephen russell 
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 2:41 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

Higamous hogamous

... funny ... pig Latin ... I first came across the form while reading Leon Stokesbury. He was a graduate student at Florida State at the time. I'm talking ancient history. 

I enjoy light verse. Not many poets seem attracted to the form. Maybe the technical difficulties scare them. 

It?s not certified!  It and the haiku are looked down on by the gatekeepers, 
unfairly, I?ve always said.

--Bob
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 27 20:09:42 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 17:09:42 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw:  thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <1346112430.74632.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF
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	E@BobHP><1345679483.61456.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><FC3DA594DF684600AF71D8153B0461A6@BobHP><1345749667.14243.Y
	ahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><32CB68A845D14A0880B5737DC40670D9@BobHP><1345751926.99638.YahooMail
	Neo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><88F09F90C55A472DB140FBEBF90A5C71@BobHP><E02D3110-46C1-455C-A65E-B99CCB959EF6@mikesnider.org><
	6D9DF2811E1643B1B98DF090016353DF@BobHP><1345838278.38323.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><7A51F741-9BC7-434F-90C6-8C0
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Although I'm not entirely sure of Wilbur. I may be thinking of his childern's verse (which included drawings). 


----- Forwarded Message -----
From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 8:07 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
 

Perhaps. At least with the haiku, although the Irish poet Paul Muldoon developed his own brand of 5/7/5 haikus that ended with rhymes. & Muldoon is widely imitated. Light verse, on the other hand, has been a speciality, a toy, for many formalist. Such poets have included Wilbur (remember him, Bob?), Updike, Hecht, and Hollander. 



________________________________
 From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 3:51 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
 

??
From: stephen russell 
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 2:41 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of 
poetry
? Higamous hogamous
?
... funny ... pig Latin ... I first came across the 
form while reading Leon Stokesbury. He was a graduate student at Florida State 
at the time. I'm talking ancient history. 
?
I enjoy light verse. Not many poets seem attracted to 
the form. Maybe the technical difficulties scare them. 
?
It?s not certified!? It and the 
haiku are looked down on by the gatekeepers, 
unfairly, I?ve always 
said.
?
--Bob
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Mon Aug 27 20:07:10 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 17:07:10 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <46CCD27E976C47EAA71BFC436769FF76@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF
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	E@BobHP><1345679483.61456.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><FC3DA594DF684600AF71D8153B0461A6@BobHP><1345749667.14243.Y
	ahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><32CB68A845D14A0880B5737DC40670D9@BobHP><1345751926.99638.YahooMail
	Neo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><88F09F90C55A472DB140FBEBF90A5C71@BobHP><E02D3110-46C1-455C-A65E-B99CCB959EF6@mikesnider.org><
	6D9DF2811E1643B1B98DF090016353DF@BobHP><1345838278.38323.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><7A51F741-9BC7-434F-90C6-8C0
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Message-ID: <1346112430.74632.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Perhaps. At least with the haiku, although the Irish poet Paul Muldoon developed his own brand of 5/7/5 haikus that ended with rhymes. & Muldoon is widely imitated. Light verse, on the other hand, has been a speciality, a toy, for many formalist. Such poets have included Wilbur (remember him, Bob?), Updike, Hecht, and Hollander. 



________________________________
 From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 3:51 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
 

??
From: stephen russell 
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 2:41 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of 
poetry
? Higamous hogamous
?
... funny ... pig Latin ... I first came across the 
form while reading Leon Stokesbury. He was a graduate student at Florida State 
at the time. I'm talking ancient history. 
?
I enjoy light verse. Not many poets seem attracted to 
the form. Maybe the technical difficulties scare them. 
?
It?s not certified!? It and the 
haiku are looked down on by the gatekeepers, 
unfairly, I?ve always 
said.
?
--Bob
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From newpoetry at mikesnider.org  Mon Aug 27 20:20:10 2012
From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 20:20:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <46CCD27E976C47EAA71BFC436769FF76@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
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Message-ID: <C30B92C8-C6C4-43F3-8ECB-DDBB7FB8A480@mikesnider.org>



On Aug 27, 2012, at 15:51, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

>  
>  
> From: stephen russell
> Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 2:41 PM
> To: NewPoetry List
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>  
> Higamous hogamous
>  
>  
> It?s not certified!  It and the haiku are looked down on by the gatekeepers,
> unfairly, I?ve always said.
>  

Oh, come on, Bob. -- double dactyls were invented by Anthony Hecht, and have you ever read Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats?  Richard Wilbur has written several books of light verse and children's verse and what he called hokku. How establishment can you get? Stephen has it right? there's not a lot published because it's hard to do well.

By the way, Stephen, thanks.


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From newpoetry at mikesnider.org  Mon Aug 27 20:28:10 2012
From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 20:28:10 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <1346112430.74632.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
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	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
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	ahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
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	<1345751926.99638.YahooMail Neo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
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	6D9DF2811E1643B1B98DF090016353DF@BobHP>
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	27E976C47EAA71BFC 436769FF76@BobHP>
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Message-ID: <AD724615-E231-403E-8A29-0829E83654F6@mikesnider.org>

Thanks, Stephen?I'd forgotten Muldoon's rhymed haiku ( though I like them very much), and I'm embarrassed to have not mentioned John Hollander.

On Aug 27, 2012, at 20:07, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Perhaps. At least with the haiku, although the Irish poet Paul Muldoon developed his own brand of 5/7/5 haikus that ended with rhymes. & Muldoon is widely imitated. Light verse, on the other hand, has been a speciality, a toy, for many formalist. Such poets have included Wilbur (remember him, Bob?), Updike, Hecht, and Hollander. 
> 
> 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Mon Aug 27 20:42:04 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 20:42:04 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <C30B92C8-C6C4-43F3-8ECB-DDBB7FB8A480@mikesnider.org>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	041DE976@mikesnider.or
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	E@BobHP><1345679483.61456.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><FC3DA594DF684600AF71D8153B0461A6@BobHP>
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	Neo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><88F09F90C55A472DB140FBEBF90A5C71@BobHP><E02D3110-46C1-455C-A65E-B99CCB959EF6@mikesnider.org>
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Message-ID: <5A77D72515584AE3BCE8F6E7CD9A6F5E@BobHP>

Poets certified by the Establishment for their ?real? poetry can, of course, get their light verse, and haiku, published.  But 
Ogden Nash is only of late getting any respect.  And Dorothy Parker.  Light verse is looked down on, like the haiku.  
What member of the Society of American Poets is there because of his light verse?  Or his haiku?

From: Michael Snider 
Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 8:20 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry



On Aug 27, 2012, at 15:51, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:




  From: stephen russell 
  Sent: Monday, August 27, 2012 2:41 PM
  To: NewPoetry List 
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

  Higamous hogamous


  It?s not certified!  It and the haiku are looked down on by the gatekeepers, 
  unfairly, I?ve always said.


Oh, come on, Bob. -- double dactyls were invented by Anthony Hecht, and have you ever read Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats?  Richard Wilbur has written several books of light verse and children's verse and what he called hokku. How establishment can you get? Stephen has it right? there's not a lot published because it's hard to do well.


By the way, Stephen, thanks.






--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From jforjames at aol.com  Mon Aug 27 20:44:59 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 20:44:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Daryl Hine | Poet, translator, 76
Message-ID: <8CF52CD7C4BC68F-958-34A6B@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>


http://www.philly.com/philly/obituaries/20120827_Daryl_Hine___Poet__translator__76.html

Inspired by his education in the classics and his love of Latin, Mr. Hine wrote more than a dozen books of poetry, using traditional forms like the sestina (six stanzas of six lines each, followed by one of three lines). Two of these were book-length autobiographical poems - In & Out (published privately in 1975) and Academic Festival Overtures (1985) - that describe his unhappy upbringing and his homosexuality.


Inspired by his education in the classics and his love of Latin, Mr. Hine wrote more than a dozen books of poetry, using traditional forms like the sestina (six stanzas of six lines each, followed by one of three lines). Two of these were book-length autobiographical poems - In & Out (published privately in 1975) and Academic Festival Overtures (1985) - that describe his unhappy upbringing and his homosexuality.
 
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From jforjames at aol.com  Mon Aug 27 21:05:41 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 21:05:41 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.org>
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I'm glad this thread is not yet dead. Because I wanted to call Michael out on his defintion. I posted a rather insouciant definition (based loosely on something perhaps Philip Johnson said) that 'poetry is the art of wasting space (page) beautifully." Bob responded, when doesn't he respond, that my turn on Johnson was more of a 'characterization' of poetry. OK. But then, Michael, isn't "rhythmically organized imitation of speech" only an 'attribute' of poetry (and certain kinds of poetry at that)? Couldn't we easily construct a text that was "rhythmically organized imitation of speech" but failed miserably to be a poem. Isn't poemness more than its attributes (or characterizations)?


Finnegan



-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Snider <newpoetry at mikesnider.org>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wed, Aug 22, 2012 5:53 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


Here's a definition of the poetry I'm interested in: rhythmically organized imitation of speech.  I doubt there can anymore be a generally accepted definition of poetry. Different communities self-describe as "poets"; each reader or listener will have more-or-less idiosyncratic ideas of what is a poem and what isn't.

www.mikesnider.org

On Aug 22, 2012, at 17:14, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:







All attempts to define poetry are bound to fail. Although, Mr. Linguifiniky, your attempts to do so have been amusing. 

 
The fact that halfwits will never accept any definition of poetry as valid does not mean no definitions of it
are as valid as the best definitions of water or anything else.  Everything is ultimately definable enough?i.e., as
definable as my house?s location, 1708 Hayworth Road, Port Charlotte, Florida, the validity of which can be
demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt by a trip there  and a knock on the door, if I?m home.  
 
--Mr. Linguifiniky


 


From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

 


I?ve heard it said that ?architecture is the art of wasting space beautifully?. I don?t know who to attribute that remark to; though it may be a misquote of something Philip Johnson once said. In any case, it?s a wry remark and it makes me think that ?Poetry is art of wasting silence (or its material manifestation: the blank page) 
beautifully."


http://ursprache.blogspot.com
.
I like that?but I would say it?s a characterization of poetry, not a definition.
.
--Mr Linguifiniky



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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



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From jforjames at aol.com  Mon Aug 27 21:21:48 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 21:21:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>
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	<8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8CF52D2A0CA38F8-958-34F59@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>


Excuse me. The correct statement is: 'poetry is the art of wasting silence (page) beautifully.'


-----Original Message-----
From: jforjames <jforjames at aol.com>
To: new-poetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Mon, Aug 27, 2012 9:14 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


I'm glad this thread is not yet dead. Because I wanted to call Michael out on his defintion. I posted a rather insouciant definition (based loosely on something perhaps Philip Johnson said) that 'poetry is the art of wasting space (page) beautifully." Bob responded, when doesn't he respond, that my turn on Johnson was more of a 'characterization' of poetry. OK. But then, Michael, isn't "rhythmically organized imitation of speech" only an 'attribute' of poetry (and certain kinds of poetry at that)? Couldn't we easily construct a text that was "rhythmically organized imitation of speech" but failed miserably to be a poem. Isn't poemness more than its attributes (or characterizations)?


Finnegan



-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Snider <newpoetry at mikesnider.org>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Wed, Aug 22, 2012 5:53 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


Here's a definition of the poetry I'm interested in: rhythmically organized imitation of speech.  I doubt there can anymore be a generally accepted definition of poetry. Different communities self-describe as "poets"; each reader or listener will have more-or-less idiosyncratic ideas of what is a poem and what isn't.

www.mikesnider.org

On Aug 22, 2012, at 17:14, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:








All attempts to define poetry are bound to fail. Although, Mr. Linguifiniky, your attempts to do so have been amusing. 

 
The fact that halfwits will never accept any definition of poetry as valid does not mean no definitions of it
are as valid as the best definitions of water or anything else.  Everything is ultimately definable enough?i.e., as
definable as my house?s location, 1708 Hayworth Road, Port Charlotte, Florida, the validity of which can be
demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt by a trip there  and a knock on the door, if I?m home.  
 
--Mr. Linguifiniky


 


From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:58 AM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

 



I?ve heard it said that ?architecture is the art of wasting space beautifully?. I don?t know who to attribute that remark to; though it may be a misquote of something Philip Johnson once said. In any case, it?s a wry remark and it makes me think that ?Poetry is art of wasting silence (or its material manifestation: the blank page) 
beautifully."


http://ursprache.blogspot.com
.
I like that?but I would say it?s a characterization of poetry, not a definition.
.
--Mr Linguifiniky



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry





_______________________________________________
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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry




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New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


 
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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

 
 
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From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu  Mon Aug 27 22:56:13 2012
From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 21:56:13 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <AD724615-E231-403E-8A29-0829E83654F6@mikesnider.org>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
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	ahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
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	6D9DF2811E1643B1B98DF090016353DF@BobHP>
	<1345838278.38323.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<7A51F741-9BC7-434F-90C6-8C0 E668C347A@mikesnider.org>
	<1346092863.93160.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
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	<AD724615-E231-403E-8A29-0829E83654F6@mikesnider.org>
Message-ID: <503C334D.1030805@louisiana.edu>

I like to work with haiku with beginning poetry students (to acquaint 
them with precision, economy, and image), and have had the most 
interesting responses when I got them to read and compare work by Basho 
and the novelist Richard Wright, who wrote thousands of haiku at the end 
of his life. They're full of fine details from (especially rural) 
African-American experience, and make a nice contrast with the Japanese 
contest out of which Basho wrote. (I'm sure you guys already know about 
Wright's haiku, but maybe some others weren't aware of them.)

Jerry

On 8/27/2012 7:28 PM, Michael Snider wrote:
> Thanks, Stephen---I'd forgotten Muldoon's rhymed haiku ( though I like 
> them very much), and I'm embarrassed to have not mentioned John Hollander.
>
> On Aug 27, 2012, at 20:07, stephen russell 
> <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com <mailto:poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>> 
> wrote:
>
>> Perhaps. At least with the haiku, although the Irish poet Paul 
>> Muldoon developed his own brand of 5/7/5 haikus that ended with 
>> rhymes. & Muldoon is widely imitated. Light verse, on the other hand, 
>> has been a speciality, a toy, for many formalist. Such poets have 
>> included Wilbur (remember him, Bob?), Updike, Hecht, and Hollander.
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506
jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
337-482-5478

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From litty at sbcglobal.net  Tue Aug 28 02:21:05 2012
From: litty at sbcglobal.net (d.litty)
Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2012 23:21:05 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] (no subject)
Message-ID: <1346134865.32182.YahooMailClassic@web184502.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>

Hello,

I have tried to unsubscribe from your mailing list to no avail. Could you please remove me from New-Poetry's email list? I just can not keep up with all the messages that come in daily.

Thank you,
David Litty
litty at sbcglobal.net

"One man scorned and covered with scars still strove with his last ounce of courage to reach the unreachable stars; and the world was better for this."
Cervantes Don Quixote
 
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From junction at earthlink.net  Tue Aug 28 14:44:01 2012
From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 12:44:01 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] NewPoetry
Message-ID: <E1T6J98-0001Ks-HJ@elasmtp-dupuy.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

NewPoetry hey i tried it for myself and i loved it I do for living now what I wished I had done 10 years ago http://ad.uk.doubleclick.net/clk;209394301;31304475;x?http://cnbc.com-idn.us i wish the people who came up with this were properly recognized and thanked



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Aug 28 07:16:21 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 07:16:21 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <8CF52D2A0CA38F8-958-34F59@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.org><8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CF52D2A0CA38F8-958-34F59@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <0274CB9FB6B3437E98D0FCD694E9799F@BobHP>

. . . Michael, isn't "rhythmically organized imitation of speech" only an 'attribute' of poetry 
(and certain kinds of poetry at that)? Couldn't we easily construct a text that was "rhythmically 
organized imitation of speech" but failed miserably to be a poem. Isn't poemness more than 
its attributes (or characterizations)?
.
Finnegan

My answer: no, we couldn?t.  If the text is lineated and rhythmically organized, 
it is (objectively) a poem. What it may not be is an effective poem, which is 
what you want to (subjectively) define, Finnegan.

e.g.:  I am in forest.
         What egg?

This is a lineated text that is neither propaganda ore mere information.
It is therefore a poem.  That it will strike almost everyone as a bad poem
is irrelevant.  If it is not a poem, what is it?

--Bob
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From newpoetry at mikesnider.org  Tue Aug 28 08:55:12 2012
From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 08:55:12 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
	<348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.org>
	<8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <6BA0743B-6AF7-40C4-8CFB-C9221415276C@mikesnider.org>

Yes, of course you're right, James, that my definition leaves out a lot of what many other people consider to be poetry. But I made no claim that my definition was exhaustive ? I said "definition of the kind of poetry that interests me."

There's only so much time in the world, particularly for those of us outside of academia. I've been inside and outside ? your experience may be different ? and if, after 40+ hours at work (I lead a team of software developers), training classes for work, grocery shopping and cooking for 4 (my S.O. is an elementary school music teacher, department head, and mentor to other teachers, with 350 kids in her after-school music groups, as well as my band leader, and far busier than I), driving 2 girls around (one a teenager and the other almost one), practicing mandolin, band practice, if after all that I get 2-3 hours 1 or 2 nights a week to read poetry and work on writing it, I'm a lucky man. Lines must be drawn somewhere, and that definition is where I draw mine for me. 

Your mileage, of course, may vary.

www.mikesnider.org

On Aug 27, 2012, at 21:05, jforjames at aol.com wrote:

> I'm glad this thread is not yet dead. Because I wanted to call Michael out on his defintion. I posted a rather insouciant definition (based loosely on something perhaps Philip Johnson said) that 'poetry is the art of wasting space (page) beautifully." Bob responded, when doesn't he respond, that my turn on Johnson was more of a 'characterization' of poetry. OK. But then, Michael, isn't "rhythmically organized imitation of speech" only an 'attribute' of poetry (and certain kinds of poetry at that)? Couldn't we easily construct a text that was "rhythmically organized imitation of speech" but failed miserably to be a poem. Isn't poemness more than its attributes (or characterizations)?
> Finnegan
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Snider <newpoetry at mikesnider.org>
> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Wed, Aug 22, 2012 5:53 pm
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
> 
> Here's a definition of the poetry I'm interested in: rhythmically organized imitation of speech.  I doubt there can anymore be a generally accepted definition of poetry. Different communities self-describe as "poets"; each reader or listener will have more-or-less idiosyncratic ideas of what is a poem and what isn't.
> 
> www.mikesnider.org
> 
> On Aug 22, 2012, at 17:14, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
> 
>> All attempts to define poetry are bound to fail. Although, Mr. Linguifiniky, your attempts to do so have been amusing.
>>  
>> The fact that halfwits will never accept any definition of poetry as valid does not mean no definitions of it
>> are as valid as the best definitions of water or anything else.  Everything is ultimately definable enough?i.e., as
>> definable as my house?s location, 1708 Hayworth Road, Port Charlotte, Florida, the validity of which can be
>> demonstrated beyond reasonable doubt by a trip there  and a knock on the door, if I?m home. 
>>  
>> --Mr. Linguifiniky
>> 
>>  
>> From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
>> Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2012 8:58 AM
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>>  
>> I?ve heard it said that ?architecture is the art of wasting space beautifully?. I don?t know who to attribute that remark to; though it may be a misquote of something Philip Johnson once said. In any case, it?s a wry remark and it makes me think that ?Poetry is art of wasting silence (or its material manifestation: the blank page)
>> beautifully."
>> 
>> http://ursprache.blogspot.com
>> .
>> I like that?but I would say it?s a characterization of poetry, not a definition.
>> .
>> --Mr Linguifiniky
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
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> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From newpoetry at mikesnider.org  Tue Aug 28 09:13:27 2012
From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 09:13:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
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	<348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.org>
	<8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <FFED7B1D-A9DA-4284-A605-5CE16FC57129@mikesnider.org>



On Aug 27, 2012, at 21:05, jforjames at aol.com wrote:

OK. But then, Michael, isn't "rhythmically organized imitation of speech" only an 'attribute' of poetry (and certain kinds of poetry at that)? Couldn't we easily construct a text that was "rhythmically organized imitation of speech" but failed miserably to be a poem. Isn't poemness more than its attributes (or characterizations)?

-----------

I think I'm with Bob on this.  The result may be a terrible poem ? I've written at least my share ? but it's still a poem. But as I said before, this is only a definition of the kind of poem I'm interested in, not a definition of Poetry.
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From newpoetry at mikesnider.org  Tue Aug 28 09:05:45 2012
From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 09:05:45 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <0274CB9FB6B3437E98D0FCD694E9799F@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
	<348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.org>
	<8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>
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	<0274CB9FB6B3437E98D0FCD694E9799F@BobHP>
Message-ID: <6F9EC1D0-DCBA-4467-90C7-DF6B56041CA1@mikesnider.org>

Bob, scribbles aren't drawings (doodles may be), & that ain't a poem.

www.mikesnider.org

On Aug 28, 2012, at 7:16, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

> . . . Michael, isn't "rhythmically organized imitation of speech" only an 'attribute' of poetry
> (and certain kinds of poetry at that)? Couldn't we easily construct a text that was "rhythmically
> organized imitation of speech" but failed miserably to be a poem. Isn't poemness more than
> its attributes (or characterizations)?
> .
> Finnegan
>  
> My answer: no, we couldn?t.  If the text is lineated and rhythmically organized,
> it is (objectively) a poem. What it may not be is an effective poem, which is
> what you want to (subjectively) define, Finnegan.
>  
> e.g.:  I am in forest.
>          What egg?
>  
> This is a lineated text that is neither propaganda ore mere information.
> It is therefore a poem.  That it will strike almost everyone as a bad poem
> is irrelevant.  If it is not a poem, what is it?
>  
> --Bob
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From newpoetry at mikesnider.org  Tue Aug 28 09:35:28 2012
From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 09:35:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <0274CB9FB6B3437E98D0FCD694E9799F@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
	<348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.org>
	<8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CF52D2A0CA38F8-958-34F59@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>
	<0274CB9FB6B3437E98D0FCD694E9799F@BobHP>
Message-ID: <484B165D-24FF-4D14-A9DD-7AF25299A61E@mikesnider.org>

Bob, I should have included lineation in my limited definition. Arbitrary lineation I wouldn't like to include, but it would take a good deal of time to explain what I mean by that.

www.mikesnider.org

On Aug 28, 2012, at 7:16, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

> . . . Michael, isn't "rhythmically organized imitation of speech" only an 'attribute' of poetry
> (and certain kinds of poetry at that)? Couldn't we easily construct a text that was "rhythmically
> organized imitation of speech" but failed miserably to be a poem. Isn't poemness more than
> its attributes (or characterizations)?
> .
> Finnegan
>  
> My answer: no, we couldn?t.  If the text is lineated and rhythmically organized,
> it is (objectively) a poem. What it may not be is an effective poem, which is
> what you want to (subjectively) define, Finnegan.
>  
> e.g.:  I am in forest.
>          What egg?
>  
> This is a lineated text that is neither propaganda ore mere information.
> It is therefore a poem.  That it will strike almost everyone as a bad poem
> is irrelevant.  If it is not a poem, what is it?
>  
> --Bob
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Aug 28 10:10:27 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 10:10:27 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <6F9EC1D0-DCBA-4467-90C7-DF6B56041CA1@mikesnider.org>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.or
	g><8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><8CF52D2A0CA38F8-958-34F59@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><0274CB9FB6B343
	7E98D0FCD694E9799F@BobHP>
	<6F9EC1D0-DCBA-4467-90C7-DF6B56041CA1@mikesnider.org>
Message-ID: <0EFF6700BC0E4EF68F330526B93E9DAE@BobHP>

Bob, scribbles aren't drawings (doodles may be), & that ain't a poem.

www.mikesnider.org

I think it would depend on the definition of ?scribble,? Mike.  There is at,
least one painter with a world-wide reputation for scribbling.  But perhaps
you could call artful scribbling doodling, I dunno.  I think it would depend
on the finished work.  If enough people can genuinely find pleasure
in scribbles, they art art.  It?s easier to pin down, I think, in visual
poetry which many poets intentionally scribble part of their work.
If the scribbles are reasonably close to letters and words contributing
to the meaning of the work can be made out, the result is a visual poem.

--Bob
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Aug 28 10:16:28 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 10:16:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <6F9EC1D0-DCBA-4467-90C7-DF6B56041CA1@mikesnider.org>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.or
	g><8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><8CF52D2A0CA38F8-958-34F59@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><0274CB9FB6B343
	7E98D0FCD694E9799F@BobHP>
	<6F9EC1D0-DCBA-4467-90C7-DF6B56041CA1@mikesnider.org>
Message-ID: <A60ED115FD8D46D0A5FC1977C02061D1@BobHP>

Cy Twombly is the painter I was trying to think of.  For some reason, I always forget his name.
I have mixed feelings about his work.

--Bob

From: Michael Snider 
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 9:05 AM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

Bob, scribbles aren't drawings (doodles may be), & that ain't a poem.

www.mikesnider.org

On Aug 28, 2012, at 7:16, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


  . . . Michael, isn't "rhythmically organized imitation of speech" only an 'attribute' of poetry 
  (and certain kinds of poetry at that)? Couldn't we easily construct a text that was "rhythmically 
  organized imitation of speech" but failed miserably to be a poem. Isn't poemness more than 
  its attributes (or characterizations)?
  .
  Finnegan

  My answer: no, we couldn?t.  If the text is lineated and rhythmically organized, 
  it is (objectively) a poem. What it may not be is an effective poem, which is 
  what you want to (subjectively) define, Finnegan.

  e.g.:  I am in forest.
           What egg?

  This is a lineated text that is neither propaganda ore mere information.
  It is therefore a poem.  That it will strike almost everyone as a bad poem
  is irrelevant.  If it is not a poem, what is it?

  --Bob
  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
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http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Aug 28 10:21:02 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 10:21:02 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Lincoln's favorite poems
Message-ID: <8CF533F7C3462CC-18B4-3966D@webmail-m095.sysops.aol.com>

http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/23086


If Abraham Lincoln's leadership is any indication of his ability to navigate America's complex cultural landscape, then you might want to take heed of Lincoln's recommended reading list. Compiled from the president's biographers' list of works he read, many of these poems were included in his intimate correspondence, memorized in private, or even recited on cue. Lincoln states that
Writing, the art of communicating thoughts to the mind, through the eye?is the great invention of the world. Great in the astonishing range of analysis and combination . . . great in enabling us to converse with the dead, the absent, and the unborn, at all distances of time and space.1







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From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Aug 28 10:30:13 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 10:30:13 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <484B165D-24FF-4D14-A9DD-7AF25299A61E@mikesnider.org>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
	<348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.org>
	<8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CF52D2A0CA38F8-958-34F59@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>
	<0274CB9FB6B3437E98D0FCD694E9799F@BobHP>
	<484B165D-24FF-4D14-A9DD-7AF25299A61E@mikesnider.org>
Message-ID: <8CF5340C4FE171A-1DD4-35D9E@webmail-m152.sysops.aol.com>


'Lineation' is again an attribute. And a prose poem is a 'poem' that happens to eschew that attribute.

The problem with definitions of poetry is that 'value' inevitably comes into play. I said on the usprache blog, "One's definition poetry is one's defense of poetry." 

If I rhymically organize and render a few pages from the owner's manual of my car, I create conceptual art perhaps...but not likely a poem. Although there is case of  'found poems', where the material taken out context and deployed as poem, has an element of 'poemness', rise to 'the standard' at times.


Jim Finnegan
860-508-2810



-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Snider <newpoetry at mikesnider.org>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tue, Aug 28, 2012 9:44 am
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


Bob, I should have included lineation in my limited definition. Arbitrary lineation I wouldn't like to include, but it would take a good deal of time to explain what I mean by that.

www.mikesnider.org

On Aug 28, 2012, at 7:16, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:





. . . Michael, isn't "rhythmically organized imitation of speech" only an 'attribute' of poetry 
(and certain kinds of poetry at that)? Couldn't we easily construct a text that was "rhythmically 
organized imitation of speech" but failed miserably to be a poem. Isn't poemness more than 
its attributes (or characterizations)?
.


Finnegan


 
My answer: no, we couldn?t.  If the text is lineated and rhythmically organized, 
it is (objectively) a poem. What it may not be is an effective poem, which is 
what you want to (subjectively) define, Finnegan.
 
e.g.:  I am in forest.
         What egg?
 
This is a lineated text that is neither propaganda ore mere information.
It is therefore a poem.  That it will strike almost everyone as a bad poem
is irrelevant.  If it is not a poem, what is it?
 
--Bob




_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

 
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From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Aug 28 10:32:18 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 10:32:18 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <8CF5340C4FE171A-1DD4-35D9E@webmail-m152.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
	<348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.org>
	<8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CF52D2A0CA38F8-958-34F59@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>
	<0274CB9FB6B3437E98D0FCD694E9799F@BobHP>
	<484B165D-24FF-4D14-A9DD-7AF25299A61E@mikesnider.org>
	<8CF5340C4FE171A-1DD4-35D9E@webmail-m152.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <8CF53410FB21D3C-1DD4-35E2C@webmail-m152.sysops.aol.com>


"One's definition of poetry is one's defense of poetry."
[typo corrected]

-----Original Message-----
From: jforjames <jforjames at aol.com>
To: new-poetry <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tue, Aug 28, 2012 10:30 am
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


'Lineation' is again an attribute. And a prose poem is a 'poem' that happens to eschew that attribute.

The problem with definitions of poetry is that 'value' inevitably comes into play. I said on the usprache blog, "One's definition poetry is one's defense of poetry." 
 
If I rhymically organize and render a few pages from the owner's manual of my car, I create conceptual art perhaps...but not likely a poem. Although there is case of  'found poems', where the material taken out context and deployed as poem, has an element of 'poemness', rise to 'the standard' at times.


Jim Finnegan
860-508-2810



-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Snider <newpoetry at mikesnider.org>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tue, Aug 28, 2012 9:44 am
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


Bob, I should have included lineation in my limited definition. Arbitrary lineation I wouldn't like to include, but it would take a good deal of time to explain what I mean by that.

www.mikesnider.org

On Aug 28, 2012, at 7:16, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:






. . . Michael, isn't "rhythmically organized imitation of speech" only an 'attribute' of poetry 

(and certain kinds of poetry at that)? Couldn't we easily construct a text that was "rhythmically 

organized imitation of speech" but failed miserably to be a poem. Isn't poemness more than 

its attributes (or characterizations)?

.



Finnegan


 
My answer: no, we couldn?t.  If the text is lineated and rhythmically organized, 
it is (objectively) a poem. What it may not be is an effective poem, which is 
what you want to (subjectively) define, Finnegan.
 
e.g.:  I am in forest.
         What egg?
 
This is a lineated text that is neither propaganda ore mere information.
It is therefore a poem.  That it will strike almost everyone as a bad poem
is irrelevant.  If it is not a poem, what is it?
 
--Bob




_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

 
 
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From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu  Tue Aug 28 10:41:09 2012
From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 09:41:09 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <FFED7B1D-A9DA-4284-A605-5CE16FC57129@mikesnider.org>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
	<348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.org>
	<8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>
	<FFED7B1D-A9DA-4284-A605-5CE16FC57129@mikesnider.org>
Message-ID: <503CD885.2020108@louisiana.edu>

I have to admit that I admire you guys for your energy in flogging this 
horse. Of course, a flogging rarely covers the whole corpus--the 
question lies in the targeting.

Noam Chomsky's explanation of the "Galilean model" seems pertinent: 
one's model (here, a "definition") has to (aspire to) generate all 
possible instances that a native (or "ideal") speaker-hearer would 
acknowledge as grammatical (here, "poetry"), and none that do not. Hence 
his "Colorless green ideas sleep furiously." And just as his grammatical 
sentence is semantically empty (or perhaps over-cluttered), 
"rhythmically organized imitation of speech" will generate stuff that 
native/ideal poets will recognize as doing something they recognize as 
poetry without feeling it passes a value test that they ordinarily apply.

As for me, what I wonder about is the word "rhythmically." Would it be 
necessary, under this definition, for a poem to be "rhythmically 
organized" to a greater degree than ordinary speech is? How about a 
five-, six-, or ten-word poem? Or the line (I think it's X. J. 
Kennedy's): "Toledo, Glass Center of the World"? I'm sure you're not 
equating poetry with highly structured verse, but if not, it don't see 
how a definition could distinguish between prose, poetry, and 
natural-speech rhythmicity.

I understand that Michael is talking about poetry that "interests" him, 
but I also wonder how much he'd want to rely on the word "imitation," 
which suggests that an original utterance, no matter how organized, 
elevated, beautiful, or provocative, can't be called poetry. As a 
subscriber (a lifetime subscription!) to Jakobson's idea that poetry is 
one "function" of all speech among others, this seems like an 
unnecessary institutionalization of what's happening when poems get 
made. Is poetry something you can identify in emergent energies of 
ordinary speech (like when I say something and immediately recognize 
that it's worthy in itselfand that it could be extended, deployed, 
coordinated, etc.) or only something that happens later, in a business 
of reorganization and aestheticizing? (And since the business of 
reorganization and aestheticizing seems pretty clearly to be part of a 
local, culturally-determined specificity, how would that help define 
poetry in, let's say, a global sense? Or maybe there are only local 
manifestations, and no more extended, human functionality we can call 
poetry?)

Jerry

On 8/28/2012 8:13 AM, Michael Snider wrote:
>
>
> On Aug 27, 2012, at 21:05, jforjames at aol.com 
> <mailto:jforjames at aol.com> wrote:
>
> OK. But then, Michael, isn't "rhythmically organized imitation of 
> speech" only an 'attribute' of poetry (and certain kinds of poetry at 
> that)? Couldn't we easily construct a text that was "rhythmically 
> organized imitation of speech" but failed miserably to be a poem. 
> Isn't poemness more than its attributes (or characterizations)?
>
> -----------
>
> I think I'm with Bob on this.  The result may be a terrible poem --- 
> I've written at least my share --- but it's still a poem. But as I 
> said before, this is only a definition of the kind of poem I'm 
> interested in, not a definition of Poetry.
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506
jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
337-482-5478

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From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu  Tue Aug 28 10:44:11 2012
From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 09:44:11 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <8CF5340C4FE171A-1DD4-35D9E@webmail-m152.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
	<348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.org>
	<8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CF52D2A0CA38F8-958-34F59@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>
	<0274CB9FB6B3437E98D0FCD694E9799F@BobHP>
	<484B165D-24FF-4D14-A9DD-7AF25299A61E@mikesnider.org>
	<8CF5340C4FE171A-1DD4-35D9E@webmail-m152.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <503CD93B.6020503@louisiana.edu>

Albert Cook had a great, characteristically dense explanation of the 
relation of the prose poem to lineated poems. I believe it cooks down 
(sorry) to the idea that prose poems should be treated as one-(quite 
long)-line free verse. It makes sense for me, in the way I work on them.

Jerry

On 8/28/2012 9:30 AM, jforjames at aol.com wrote:
> 'Lineation' is again an attribute. And a prose poem is a 'poem' that 
> happens to eschew that attribute.
>
> The problem with definitions of poetry is that 'value' inevitably 
> comes into play. I said on the usprache blog, "One's definition poetry 
> is one's defense of poetry."
> If I rhymically organize and render a few pages from the owner's 
> manual of my car, I create conceptual art perhaps...but not likely a 
> poem. Although there is case of  'found poems', where the 
> material taken out context and deployed as poem, has an element of 
> 'poemness', rise to 'the standard' at times.
> Jim Finnegan
> 860-508-2810
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Snider <newpoetry at mikesnider.org>
> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Tue, Aug 28, 2012 9:44 am
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>
> Bob, I should have included lineation in my limited definition. 
> Arbitrary lineation I wouldn't like to include, but it would take a 
> good deal of time to explain what I mean by that.
>
> www.mikesnider.org <http://www.mikesnider.org>
>
> On Aug 28, 2012, at 7:16, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net 
> <mailto:bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>> wrote:
>
>> . . . Michael, isn't "rhythmically organized imitation of speech" 
>> only an 'attribute' of poetry
>> (and certain kinds of poetry at that)? Couldn't we easily construct a 
>> text that was "rhythmically
>> organized imitation of speech" but failed miserably to be a poem. 
>> Isn't poemness more than
>> its attributes (or characterizations)?
>> .
>> Finnegan
>> My answer: no, we couldn't.  If the text is lineated and rhythmically 
>> organized,
>> it is (objectively) a poem. What it /may/ not be is an /effective 
>> /poem, which is
>> what you want to (subjectively) define, Finnegan.
>> e.g.:  I am in forest.
>>          What egg?
>> This is a lineated text that is neither propaganda ore mere information.
>> It is therefore a poem.  That it will strike almost everyone as a bad 
>> poem
>> is irrelevant. If it is not a poem, what is it?
>> --Bob
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu  <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506
jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
337-482-5478

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Aug 28 11:08:56 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 11:08:56 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <503CD93B.6020503@louisiana.edu>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.org><8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><8CF52D2A0CA38F8-958-34F59@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><0274CB9FB6B3437E98D0FCD694E9799F@BobHP><484B165D-24FF-4D14-A9DD-7AF25299A61E@mikesnider.org><8CF5340C4FE171A-1DD4-35D9E@webmail-m152.sysops.aol.com>
	<503CD93B.6020503@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <C6D99248929B485DB02428581588D61B@BobHP>

If the word ?poem? can?t be objectively defined, then no word can be.
Defining lineation and then saying poems have it, prose texts don?t, period,
is distinguishing prose from poetry, not assigning value.  If you don?t want
to distinguish prose from poetry, fine, but you?ll end up doing it, anyway.
I have friends who believe textless graphics are poems if they think
they somehow suggest the presence of text, and the text suggested
doesn?t even have to possess semantic content.  This leads to
the happiness of inclusiveness?and, ultimately, to the position
that everything is poetry.  Which makes little sense to me.

(A pox on nullinguists.)

--Bob

From: Jerry McGuire 
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 10:44 AM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

Albert Cook had a great, characteristically dense explanation of the relation of the prose poem to lineated poems. I believe it cooks down (sorry) to the idea that prose poems should be treated as one-(quite long)-line free verse. It makes sense for me, in the way I work on them.

Jerry


On 8/28/2012 9:30 AM, jforjames at aol.com wrote:

  'Lineation' is again an attribute. And a prose poem is a 'poem' that happens to eschew that attribute.

  The problem with definitions of poetry is that 'value' inevitably comes into play. I said on the usprache blog, "One's definition poetry is one's defense of poetry." 

  If I rhymically organize and render a few pages from the owner's manual of my car, I create conceptual art perhaps...but not likely a poem. Although there is case of  'found poems', where the material taken out context and deployed as poem, has an element of 'poemness', rise to 'the standard' at times.
  Jim Finnegan
  860-508-2810
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Michael Snider mailto:newpoetry at mikesnider.org
  To: NewPoetry List mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  Sent: Tue, Aug 28, 2012 9:44 am
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


  Bob, I should have included lineation in my limited definition. Arbitrary lineation I wouldn't like to include, but it would take a good deal of time to explain what I mean by that.

  www.mikesnider.org

  On Aug 28, 2012, at 7:16, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


    . . . Michael, isn't "rhythmically organized imitation of speech" only an 'attribute' of poetry 
    (and certain kinds of poetry at that)? Couldn't we easily construct a text that was "rhythmically 
    organized imitation of speech" but failed miserably to be a poem. Isn't poemness more than 
    its attributes (or characterizations)?
    .
    Finnegan

    My answer: no, we couldn?t.  If the text is lineated and rhythmically organized, 
    it is (objectively) a poem. What it may not be is an effective poem, which is 
    what you want to (subjectively) define, Finnegan.

    e.g.:  I am in forest.
             What egg?

    This is a lineated text that is neither propaganda ore mere information.
    It is therefore a poem.  That it will strike almost everyone as a bad poem
    is irrelevant.  If it is not a poem, what is it?

    --Bob
    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

_______________________________________________
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http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

   

_______________________________________________
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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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-- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506
jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
337-482-5478


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Aug 28 11:31:38 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 11:31:38 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <C6D99248929B485DB02428581588D61B@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.org><8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><8CF52D2A0CA38F8-958-34F59@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><0274CB9FB6B3437E98D0FCD694E9799F@BobHP><484B165D-24FF-4D14-A9DD-7AF25299A61E@mikesnider.org><8CF5340C4FE171A-1DD4-35D9E@webmail-m152.sysops.aol.com>
	<503CD93B.6020503@louisiana.edu>
	<C6D99248929B485DB02428581588D61B@BobHP>
Message-ID: <8CF53495966AC10-1DD4-36680@webmail-m152.sysops.aol.com>




Jim Finnegan
860-508-2810



-----Original Message-----
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tue, Aug 28, 2012 11:09 am
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry



If the word ?poem? can?t be objectively defined, then no word can be.
Defining lineation and then saying poems have it, prose texts don?t, period,
is distinguishing prose from poetry, not assigning value.  If you don?t want
to distinguish prose from poetry, fine, but you?ll end up doing it, anyway.
I have friends who believe textless graphics are poems if they think
they somehow suggest the presence of text, and the text suggested
doesn?t even have to possess semantic content.  This leads to
the happiness of inclusiveness?and, ultimately, to the position
that everything is poetry.  Which makes little sense to me.
 
(A pox on nullinguists.)
 
--Bob

 

From: Jerry McGuire 
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 10:44 AM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

 
Albert Cook had a great, characteristically dense explanation of the relation of the prose poem to lineated poems. I believe it cooks down (sorry) to the idea that prose poems should be treated as one-(quite long)-line free verse. It makes sense for me, in the way I work on them.

Jerry


On 8/28/2012 9:30 AM, jforjames at aol.com wrote:

  
'Lineation' is again   an attribute. And a prose poem is a 'poem' that happens to eschew that   attribute.
  

The problem with definitions of poetry is that 'value' inevitably   comes into play. I said on the usprache blog, "One's definition poetry is   one's defense of poetry." 
  
 
  
If I rhymically organize and render a few pages from the owner's manual   of my car, I create conceptual art perhaps...but not likely a poem. Although   there is case of  'found poems', where the material taken out context and   deployed as poem, has an element of 'poemness', rise to 'the standard' at   times.
  
  
Jim Finnegan
  
860-508-2810
  
-----Original   Message-----
From: Michael Snider mailto:newpoetry at mikesnider.org
To:   NewPoetry List mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent:   Tue, Aug 28, 2012 9:44 am
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day,   definition of poetry

  
  
Bob, I should have included lineation in my limited definition. Arbitrary   lineation I wouldn't like to include, but it would take a good deal of time to   explain what I mean by that.

www.mikesnider.org
  

On Aug 28, 2012, at 7:16, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


  
    
    
    
    
    .     . . Michael, isn't "rhythmically organized imitation of speech" only an     'attribute' of poetry 
    
    (and certain kinds of poetry at that)?     Couldn't we easily construct a text that was "rhythmically     
    
    organized imitation of speech" but     failed miserably to be a poem. Isn't poemness more than     
    
    its attributes (or     characterizations)?
    
    .    
    
    
    
Finnegan
    
 
    
My answer: no, we couldn?t.  If the text is     lineated and rhythmically organized, 
    
it is (objectively) a poem. What it may not be is an effective poem,     which is 
    
what you want to (subjectively) define,     Finnegan.
    
 
    
e.g.:  I am in forest.
    
             What egg?
    
 
    
This is a lineated text that is neither propaganda     ore mere information.
    
It is therefore a poem.  That it will strike     almost everyone as a bad poem
    
is irrelevant.  If it is not a poem, what is     it?
    
 
    
--Bob



  
    
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry     mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


  
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



  
 

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



-- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506
jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
337-482-5478



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


 
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From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Aug 28 11:42:51 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 11:42:51 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <C6D99248929B485DB02428581588D61B@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.org><8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><8CF52D2A0CA38F8-958-34F59@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><0274CB9FB6B3437E98D0FCD694E9799F@BobHP><484B165D-24FF-4D14-A9DD-7AF25299A61E@mikesnider.org><8CF5340C4FE171A-1DD4-35D9E@webmail-m152.sysops.aol.com>
	<503CD93B.6020503@louisiana.edu>
	<C6D99248929B485DB02428581588D61B@BobHP>
Message-ID: <8CF534AEA45E378-1DD4-367FE@webmail-m152.sysops.aol.com>


Of course we can have definitions, Bob. Definitions are dime a dozen. Here's the American Heritage dictionary's servicable definition of a poem...

?A verbal composition having the suggestive power to engage the feelings and imagination, typically through the highly structured patterning and movement of the sound, rhythm, and meaning characteristic of verse.?


Just look at how much of it 'subjective', even 'metaphysical': 'suggestive power' and 'to engage the feelings'. While other parts are 'attributes', like 'structured patterning' and 'rhythm'.

If you are going to just string together a few attributes of poetry/verse and call it a definition, you have a Wittgensteinian 'family resemblance' definition for poetry, which only takes one so far.

Finnegan



-----Original Message-----
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tue, Aug 28, 2012 11:09 am
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry



If the word ?poem? can?t be objectively defined, then no word can be.
Defining lineation and then saying poems have it, prose texts don?t, period,
is distinguishing prose from poetry, not assigning value.  If you don?t want
to distinguish prose from poetry, fine, but you?ll end up doing it, anyway.
I have friends who believe textless graphics are poems if they think
they somehow suggest the presence of text, and the text suggested
doesn?t even have to possess semantic content.  This leads to
the happiness of inclusiveness?and, ultimately, to the position
that everything is poetry.  Which makes little sense to me.
 
(A pox on nullinguists.)
 
--Bob

 

From: Jerry McGuire 
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 10:44 AM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

 
Albert Cook had a great, characteristically dense explanation of the relation of the prose poem to lineated poems. I believe it cooks down (sorry) to the idea that prose poems should be treated as one-(quite long)-line free verse. It makes sense for me, in the way I work on them.

Jerry


On 8/28/2012 9:30 AM, jforjames at aol.com wrote:

  
'Lineation' is again   an attribute. And a prose poem is a 'poem' that happens to eschew that   attribute.
  

The problem with definitions of poetry is that 'value' inevitably   comes into play. I said on the usprache blog, "One's definition poetry is   one's defense of poetry." 
  
 
  
If I rhymically organize and render a few pages from the owner's manual   of my car, I create conceptual art perhaps...but not likely a poem. Although   there is case of  'found poems', where the material taken out context and   deployed as poem, has an element of 'poemness', rise to 'the standard' at   times.
  
  
Jim Finnegan
  
860-508-2810
  
-----Original   Message-----
From: Michael Snider mailto:newpoetry at mikesnider.org
To:   NewPoetry List mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
Sent:   Tue, Aug 28, 2012 9:44 am
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day,   definition of poetry

  
  
Bob, I should have included lineation in my limited definition. Arbitrary   lineation I wouldn't like to include, but it would take a good deal of time to   explain what I mean by that.

www.mikesnider.org
  

On Aug 28, 2012, at 7:16, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


  
    
    
    
    
    .     . . Michael, isn't "rhythmically organized imitation of speech" only an     'attribute' of poetry 
    
    (and certain kinds of poetry at that)?     Couldn't we easily construct a text that was "rhythmically     
    
    organized imitation of speech" but     failed miserably to be a poem. Isn't poemness more than     
    
    its attributes (or     characterizations)?
    
    .    
    
    
    
Finnegan
    
 
    
My answer: no, we couldn?t.  If the text is     lineated and rhythmically organized, 
    
it is (objectively) a poem. What it may not be is an effective poem,     which is 
    
what you want to (subjectively) define,     Finnegan.
    
 
    
e.g.:  I am in forest.
    
             What egg?
    
 
    
This is a lineated text that is neither propaganda     ore mere information.
    
It is therefore a poem.  That it will strike     almost everyone as a bad poem
    
is irrelevant.  If it is not a poem, what is     it?
    
 
    
--Bob



  
    
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry     mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


  
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



  
 

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



-- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506
jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
337-482-5478



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


 
_______________________________________________
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New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
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From newpoetry at mikesnider.org  Tue Aug 28 12:04:37 2012
From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 12:04:37 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <8CF5340C4FE171A-1DD4-35D9E@webmail-m152.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
	<348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.org>
	<8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CF52D2A0CA38F8-958-34F59@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>
	<0274CB9FB6B3437E98D0FCD694E9799F@BobHP>
	<484B165D-24FF-4D14-A9DD-7AF25299A61E@mikesnider.org>
	<8CF5340C4FE171A-1DD4-35D9E@webmail-m152.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <A20A43C4-7B5F-49CB-8428-88C091914251@mikesnider.org>

A manual for a car is not imitative of speech ? it doesn't try to read as if it were something some normal human being might have spontaneously spoken. Neither, of course, does a sonnet, since no one speaks in rhymed iambic pentameter. But in what, for me, is an interesting sonnet, there is no part of it about which one could say "No one would ever say such a thing in such a situation."   Which, I suppose, means that I also consider some narrative impulse to be necessary in the poems I'm interested in.

Of course "lineation" is an attribute. But just as "good-tempered" is not an attribute of horses, it may well be an attribute of the horses I care to be around, and is, therefore, at least part of the 
definition of the horses I care to be around. 

I'm not trying to define some eternal essence of poetry, but even I were, the way we define things, as opposed to the way we define words, is to state some minimal set of attributes which would enable us to say with reasonable certainty that this thing here is one of that kind of thing there ? see, it's got 4 legs and both its dam and sire were horses, and oh, by the way, it's good tempered, so it might be a horse I wouldn't mind spending some time with.

And yes, a prose poem is a poem that eschews lineation ? which, by the way, defines "prose poem" by the fact that it doesn't share a particular attribute with some other poems. I've got no problem with that. I'm just not much interested in prose poems (or at least in making them), just as some people aren't much interested in sonnets. 

I actually don't think value comes into the definition of poetry. For many people, all poetry is a useless waste of time. For others, some kind or other of poetry, or, perhaps, some particular poem, is valuable for various reasons. And how much some particular person likes a particular  poem is one measure of its value to that person, but doesn't necessarily determine  whether or not that person considers it a poem. I've known some people who have liked some particular prose poem, or even a particular book of prose poems, who still want to know why it's not called "flash fiction" or "meditation" or "revery" or, as one columnist for our local paper calls her own column, "Wanderings of an Aimless Mind."
   
For myself, I'm comfortable with the category "prose poetry," and like some of it very much. I just don't have any impulse to write it, and I don't seek it out without a recommendation from someone whose taste I trust.

www.mikesnider.org

On Aug 28, 2012, at 10:30, jforjames at aol.com wrote:

> 'Lineation' is again an attribute. And a prose poem is a 'poem' that happens to eschew that attribute.
> 
> The problem with definitions of poetry is that 'value' inevitably comes into play. I said on the usprache blog, "One's definition poetry is one's defense of poetry."
>  
> If I rhymically organize and render a few pages from the owner's manual of my car, I create conceptual art perhaps...but not likely a poem. Although there is case of  'found poems', where the material taken out context and deployed as poem, has an element of 'poemness', rise to 'the standard' at times.
> Jim Finnegan
> 860-508-2810
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Michael Snider <newpoetry at mikesnider.org>
> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Tue, Aug 28, 2012 9:44 am
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
> 
> Bob, I should have included lineation in my limited definition. Arbitrary lineation I wouldn't like to include, but it would take a good deal of time to explain what I mean by that.
> 
> www.mikesnider.org
> 
> On Aug 28, 2012, at 7:16, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
> 
>> . . . Michael, isn't "rhythmically organized imitation of speech" only an 'attribute' of poetry
>> (and certain kinds of poetry at that)? Couldn't we easily construct a text that was "rhythmically
>> organized imitation of speech" but failed miserably to be a poem. Isn't poemness more than
>> its attributes (or characterizations)?
>> .
>> Finnegan
>>  
>> My answer: no, we couldn?t.  If the text is lineated and rhythmically organized,
>> it is (objectively) a poem. What it may not be is an effective poem, which is
>> what you want to (subjectively) define, Finnegan.
>>  
>> e.g.:  I am in forest.
>>          What egg?
>>  
>> This is a lineated text that is neither propaganda ore mere information.
>> It is therefore a poem.  That it will strike almost everyone as a bad poem
>> is irrelevant.  If it is not a poem, what is it?
>>  
>> --Bob
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
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From newpoetry at mikesnider.org  Tue Aug 28 12:38:16 2012
From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 12:38:16 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <503CD885.2020108@louisiana.edu>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
	<348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.org>
	<8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>
	<FFED7B1D-A9DA-4284-A605-5CE16FC57129@mikesnider.org>
	<503CD885.2020108@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <269AEA79-1219-4529-A70E-4A59DFA889E5@mikesnider.org>


On Aug 28, 2012, at 10:41, Jerry McGuire <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu> wrote:
<snip>

> I understand that Michael is talking about poetry that "interests" him, but I also wonder how much he'd want to rely on the word "imitation," which suggests that an original utterance, no matter how organized, elevated, beautiful, or provocative, can't be called poetry. As a subscriber (a lifetime subscription!) to Jakobson's idea that poetry is one "function" of all speech among others, this seems like an unnecessary institutionalization of what's happening when poems get made. Is poetry something you can identify in emergent energies of ordinary speech (like when I say something and immediately recognize that it's worthy in itself and that it could be extended, deployed, coordinated, etc.) or only something that happens later, in a business of reorganization and aestheticizing? (And since the business of reorganization and aestheticizing seems pretty clearly to be part of a local, culturally-determined specificity, how would that help define poetry in, let's say, a global sense? Or maybe there are only local manifestations, and no more extended, human functionality we can call poetry?)
> 
> Jerry

Jerry, I don't have much of a problem with anything you say above, except your suggestion that I'm suggesting that "an original utterance, no matter how organized, elevated, beautiful, or provocative, can't be called poetry." 

A portrait is in some sense an imitation of the person portrayed, and yet we're completely comfortable calling portraits "art" and "paintings," whether or not they're any good.  Just as in our valuation of portrait paintings, for which there are there are many sometimes contradictory schema by which we can judge them (selection and organization of shape and color and brushwork; accuracy of physical representation; accuracy of temperamental representation; appropriate display of power; power to invoke various emotional or intellectual reactions; even how well it fits the decor of the room where it will be displayed) the same is true of our evaluation of poems of whatever kind.

Here's another kind of response to the questions you ask. I'm a musician as well as a poet ? better poet than musician ? and I often sit in with local bands, some of them put together on the spot, playing music I don't know.


Open Mic


First song?s a blues?easy to fake for most? 
Eight bars or twelve, sometimes a tricky key 
But usually not, with Robert Johnson?s ghost 
Joining the bridges absent-mindedly. 
That?s when we?re lucky. Nights we?re not the singers 
Don?t mention their guitars are tuned to A, 
Or worse, E-flat, or hide their fumbling fingers 
While trying to show the drummer how to play. 
But even then we somehow manage, loud 
And leaning on the bass until we?re through 
The thing and coax a bellow from the crowd, 
Or don?t, and start again with someone new. 
Our job is playing music we don?t know 
On stage with strangers for a short-run show. 
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From junction at earthlink.net  Tue Aug 28 13:00:11 2012
From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 13:00:11 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Subject: [New-Poetry] spam attack
Message-ID: <3878509.1346173211819.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

As has been noted, my email list has been hijacked for a phishing expedition.No need to open anything from me with the subject line "hey" or "hi." if you do, don't click on the attachment and no harm's done. These things usually resolve themselves, but if not I'll do what needs to be done. Lousy timing--I leave for Scotland in two hours, there to remain till Oct 1.

Best,
Mark


From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu  Tue Aug 28 13:10:26 2012
From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 12:10:26 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] spam attack
In-Reply-To: <3878509.1346173211819.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <3878509.1346173211819.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <503CFB82.508@louisiana.edu>

Yes, sure, but is _this_ the real Mark?

Jerry (bon voyage)

On 8/28/2012 12:00 PM, junction at earthlink.net wrote:
> As has been noted, my email list has been hijacked for a phishing expedition.No need to open anything from me with the subject line "hey" or "hi." if you do, don't click on the attachment and no harm's done. These things usually resolve themselves, but if not I'll do what needs to be done. Lousy timing--I leave for Scotland in two hours, there to remain till Oct 1.
>
> Best,
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>

-- 
________________________________________________________

Jerry McGuire
English Department    Box 44691
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70504-4691
337-482-5478
Creative Writing Website: http://english.louisiana.edu/creativewriting/creative%20writing%20home.html
______________________________________________________

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From junction at earthlink.net  Tue Aug 28 13:25:39 2012
From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 13:25:39 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Subject: [New-Poetry] spam attack
Message-ID: <6825101.1346174739952.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Aug 28 13:30:05 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 13:30:05 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <8CF534AEA45E378-1DD4-367FE@webmail-m152.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.org><8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><8CF52D2A0CA38F8-958-34F59@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><0274CB9FB6B3437E98D0FCD694E9799F@BobHP><484B165D-24FF-4D14-A9DD-7AF25299A61E@mikesnider.org><8CF5340C4FE171A-1DD4-35D9E@webmail-m152.sysops.aol.com><503CD93B.6020503@louisiana.edu><C6D99248929B485DB02428581588D61B@BobHP>
	<8CF534AEA45E378-1DD4-367FE@webmail-m152.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <39D3B33CEA924BE6BD2E1E2896FE02E6@BobHP>

I?m not the American Heritage Dictionary, Finnegan: I can define poetry and have.

--Bob

From: jforjames at aol.com 
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 11:42 AM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

Of course we can have definitions, Bob. Definitions are dime a dozen. Here's the American Heritage dictionary's servicable definition of a poem...

?A verbal composition having the suggestive power to engage the feelings and imagination, typically through the highly structured patterning and movement of the sound, rhythm, and meaning characteristic of verse.?
Just look at how much of it 'subjective', even 'metaphysical': 'suggestive power' and 'to engage the feelings'. While other parts are 'attributes', like 'structured patterning' and 'rhythm'.

If you are going to just string together a few attributes of poetry/verse and call it a definition, you have a Wittgensteinian 'family resemblance' definition for poetry, which only takes one so far.

Finnegan
-----Original Message-----
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tue, Aug 28, 2012 11:09 am
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


If the word ?poem? can?t be objectively defined, then no word can be.
Defining lineation and then saying poems have it, prose texts don?t, period,
is distinguishing prose from poetry, not assigning value.  If you don?t want
to distinguish prose from poetry, fine, but you?ll end up doing it, anyway.
I have friends who believe textless graphics are poems if they think
they somehow suggest the presence of text, and the text suggested
doesn?t even have to possess semantic content.  This leads to
the happiness of inclusiveness?and, ultimately, to the position
that everything is poetry.  Which makes little sense to me.

(A pox on nullinguists.)

--Bob

From: Jerry McGuire 
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 10:44 AM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

Albert Cook had a great, characteristically dense explanation of the relation of the prose poem to lineated poems. I believe it cooks down (sorry) to the idea that prose poems should be treated as one-(quite long)-line free verse. It makes sense for me, in the way I work on them.

Jerry


On 8/28/2012 9:30 AM, jforjames at aol.com wrote:

  'Lineation' is again an attribute. And a prose poem is a 'poem' that happens to eschew that attribute.

  The problem with definitions of poetry is that 'value' inevitably comes into play. I said on the usprache blog, "One's definition poetry is one's defense of poetry." 

  If I rhymically organize and render a few pages from the owner's manual of my car, I create conceptual art perhaps...but not likely a poem. Although there is case of  'found poems', where the material taken out context and deployed as poem, has an element of 'poemness', rise to 'the standard' at times.
  Jim Finnegan
  860-508-2810
  -----Original Message-----
  From: Michael Snider mailto:newpoetry at mikesnider.org
  To: NewPoetry List mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  Sent: Tue, Aug 28, 2012 9:44 am
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


  Bob, I should have included lineation in my limited definition. Arbitrary lineation I wouldn't like to include, but it would take a good deal of time to explain what I mean by that.

  www.mikesnider.org

  On Aug 28, 2012, at 7:16, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


    . . . Michael, isn't "rhythmically organized imitation of speech" only an 'attribute' of poetry 
    (and certain kinds of poetry at that)? Couldn't we easily construct a text that was "rhythmically 
    organized imitation of speech" but failed miserably to be a poem. Isn't poemness more than 
    its attributes (or characterizations)?
    .
    Finnegan

    My answer: no, we couldn?t.  If the text is lineated and rhythmically organized, 
    it is (objectively) a poem. What it may not be is an effective poem, which is 
    what you want to (subjectively) define, Finnegan.

    e.g.:  I am in forest.
             What egg?

    This is a lineated text that is neither propaganda ore mere information.
    It is therefore a poem.  That it will strike almost everyone as a bad poem
    is irrelevant.  If it is not a poem, what is it?

    --Bob
    _______________________________________________
    New-Poetry mailing list
    New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
    http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

   

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


-- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506
jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
337-482-5478

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Aug 28 13:53:44 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 13:53:44 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] spam attack
In-Reply-To: <6825101.1346174739952.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <6825101.1346174739952.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <34AD3F99A7B84FBAB24F3FE0B775C323@BobHP>

What if we like him better than you, Mark?

--Bob

From: junction at earthlink.net 
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 1:25 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] spam attack

It's the guy in the mirror. His identity card looks good, but it's in reverse. Very suspicious.

  -----Original Message----- 
  From: Jerry McGuire 
  Sent: Aug 28, 2012 1:10 PM 
  To: NewPoetry List 
  Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] spam attack 

  Yes, sure, but is _this_ the real Mark?

  Jerry (bon voyage)


  On 8/28/2012 12:00 PM, junction at earthlink.net wrote:

As has been noted, my email list has been hijacked for a phishing expedition.No need to open anything from me with the subject line "hey" or "hi." if you do, don't click on the attachment and no harm's done. These things usually resolve themselves, but if not I'll do what needs to be done. Lousy timing--I leave for Scotland in two hours, there to remain till Oct 1.

Best,
Mark
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



-- 
________________________________________________________

Jerry McGuire
English Department    Box 44691
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70504-4691
337-482-5478
Creative Writing Website: http://english.louisiana.edu/creativewriting/creative%20writing%20home.html
______________________________________________________



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From junction at earthlink.net  Tue Aug 28 14:14:57 2012
From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 14:14:57 -0400 (GMT-04:00)
Subject: [New-Poetry] spam attack
Message-ID: <32749733.1346177698206.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Aug 28 14:22:01 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 14:22:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <39D3B33CEA924BE6BD2E1E2896FE02E6@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.or
	g><8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><8CF52D2A0CA38F8-958-34F59@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><0274CB9FB6B343
	7E98D0FCD694E9799F@BobHP><484B165D-24FF-4D14-A9DD-7AF25299A61E@mikesnider.org><8CF5340C4FE171A-1DD4-35D9E@webmail-m152.sysops.a
	ol.com><503CD93B.6020503@louisiana.edu><C6D99248929B485DB02428581588D61B@BobHP><8CF534AEA45E378-1DD4-367FE@webmail-m152.sysops.
	aol.com> <39D3B33CEA924BE6BD2E1E2896FE02E6@BobHP>
Message-ID: <4AF46F6297E34FC8A6774AD9F712FE33@BobHP>

Might as well repeat my definition?because I may have made it clearer than it was.
It requires two preliminary definitions.  First, there?s literature, which is verbal expression
the intent of which, in the view of a consensus of intelligent, reasonable observers, is
to provide asethetic pleasure, as opposed to what I call informrature, the intent of which 
to provide factual information, and advocature, the intent of which is to persuade.
For the purposes of my definition here I?ll accept ?aesthetic pleasure? as anything
a given person thinks it is.  I haven?t yet worked out my own objective definition of it
except to propose sensual pleasure as a part of it?sometimes; narrative pleasure and
certain kinds of people-related pleasure I haven?t yet gotten quite straight 
are also part of it sometimes.  One or more of these must be present.
My second preliminary definition is of ?flow-breaks.  A flow-break is anything in 
a line aside from prose punctuation conventionally used that halts a reader?
with no other significant effect. Hence, in the line, ?Where?s the baby???? 
I can?t find him!!!!?  The question marks and exclamation marks express 
emotion as well as probably halting a reader, so are not flow-breaks.
In the line, ?Where?s the baby%%%%I can?t find him,? the %s are flow-breaks.
Flow-breaks, which include spaces, lineate wherever they occur, lineation
in my usage being taken to mean a halting of a line.
We?re now ready for my definition of poetry.  It is any verbally-expressive 
literary work that is lineated.  That?s it.  Since it?s a form of literature,
it will have to intend to provide aesthetic pleasure (whether it does of
not is irrelevant).
To demonstrate that my definition is ineffective, one needs to provide a
specimen of something almost everybody would consider a poem that
my definition does not cover.  Or find a specimen of something almost 
no one would consider a poem that my definition does cover.  Even that
won?t work if your specimen is something extremely rare and trivial,
since my definition only needs to be effective, not perfect.
By the way, Finnegan, this thread is a repeat of a thread Marcus Bales
got exiled from New-Poetry because of his part in it, and I almost did.  But
so far no one?s called anyone else an idiot.  If someone misrepresents
what I say above more than eleven times in a row, though, I can?t
promise not to use the term.
--Bob
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From newpoetry at mikesnider.org  Tue Aug 28 14:23:54 2012
From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 14:23:54 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <39D3B33CEA924BE6BD2E1E2896FE02E6@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
	<348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.org>
	<8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CF52D2A0CA38F8-958-34F59@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>
	<0274CB9FB6B3437E98D0FCD694E9799F@BobHP>
	<484B165D-24FF-4D14-A9DD-7AF25299A61E@mikesnider.org>
	<8CF5340C4FE171A-1DD4-35D9E@webmail-m152.sysops.aol.com>
	<503CD93B.6020503@louisiana.edu>
	<C6D99248929B485DB02428581588D61B@BobHP>
	<8CF534AEA45E378-1DD4-367FE@webmail-m152.sysops.aol.com>
	<39D3B33CEA924BE6BD2E1E2896FE02E6@BobHP>
Message-ID: <ABB19E39-38E5-4F0D-A7A5-02F5A24E8629@mikesnider.org>

You'd think the definition of something like "red," based, as it is, on measurable frequencies of light, would be quite straightforward. It ain't. Look here:

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/riddled-with-irregularity/

Definitions, even of colors, are the result of complex interactions between the members of a community and between communities. Seems to me definitions a more like a dime a million unless they're the result of these communal negotiations. 

www.mikesnider.org

On Aug 28, 2012, at 13:30, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

> I?m not the American Heritage Dictionary, Finnegan: I can define poetry and have.
>  
> --Bob
>  
> From: jforjames at aol.com
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 11:42 AM
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>  
> Of course we can have definitions, Bob. Definitions are dime a dozen. Here's the American Heritage dictionary's servicable definition of a poem...
>  
> ?A verbal composition having the suggestive power to engage the feelings and imagination, typically through the highly structured patterning and movement of the sound, rhythm, and meaning characteristic of verse.?
> Just look at how much of it 'subjective', even 'metaphysical': 'suggestive power' and 'to engage the feelings'. While other parts are 'attributes', like 'structured patterning' and 'rhythm'.
>  
> If you are going to just string together a few attributes of poetry/verse and call it a definition, you have a Wittgensteinian 'family resemblance' definition for poetry, which only takes one so far.
>  
> Finnegan
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Tue, Aug 28, 2012 11:09 am
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
> 
> If the word ?poem? can?t be objectively defined, then no word can be.
> Defining lineation and then saying poems have it, prose texts don?t, period,
> is distinguishing prose from poetry, not assigning value.  If you don?t want
> to distinguish prose from poetry, fine, but you?ll end up doing it, anyway.
> I have friends who believe textless graphics are poems if they think
> they somehow suggest the presence of text, and the text suggested
> doesn?t even have to possess semantic content.  This leads to
> the happiness of inclusiveness?and, ultimately, to the position
> that everything is poetry.  Which makes little sense to me.
>  
> (A pox on nullinguists.)
>  
> --Bob
>  
> From: Jerry McGuire
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 10:44 AM
> To: NewPoetry List
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>  
> Albert Cook had a great, characteristically dense explanation of the relation of the prose poem to lineated poems. I believe it cooks down (sorry) to the idea that prose poems should be treated as one-(quite long)-line free verse. It makes sense for me, in the way I work on them.
> 
> Jerry
> 
> On 8/28/2012 9:30 AM, jforjames at aol.com wrote:
>> 'Lineation' is again an attribute. And a prose poem is a 'poem' that happens to eschew that attribute.
>> 
>> The problem with definitions of poetry is that 'value' inevitably comes into play. I said on the usprache blog, "One's definition poetry is one's defense of poetry."
>>  
>> If I rhymically organize and render a few pages from the owner's manual of my car, I create conceptual art perhaps...but not likely a poem. Although there is case of  'found poems', where the material taken out context and deployed as poem, has an element of 'poemness', rise to 'the standard' at times.
>> Jim Finnegan
>> 860-508-2810
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Michael Snider mailto:newpoetry at mikesnider.org
>> To: NewPoetry List mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> Sent: Tue, Aug 28, 2012 9:44 am
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>> 
>> Bob, I should have included lineation in my limited definition. Arbitrary lineation I wouldn't like to include, but it would take a good deal of time to explain what I mean by that.
>> 
>> www.mikesnider.org
>> 
>> On Aug 28, 2012, at 7:16, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>> 
>>> . . . Michael, isn't "rhythmically organized imitation of speech" only an 'attribute' of poetry
>>> (and certain kinds of poetry at that)? Couldn't we easily construct a text that was "rhythmically
>>> organized imitation of speech" but failed miserably to be a poem. Isn't poemness more than
>>> its attributes (or characterizations)?
>>> .
>>> Finnegan
>>>  
>>> My answer: no, we couldn?t.  If the text is lineated and rhythmically organized,
>>> it is (objectively) a poem. What it may not be is an effective poem, which is
>>> what you want to (subjectively) define, Finnegan.
>>>  
>>> e.g.:  I am in forest.
>>>          What egg?
>>>  
>>> This is a lineated text that is neither propaganda ore mere information.
>>> It is therefore a poem.  That it will strike almost everyone as a bad poem
>>> is irrelevant.  If it is not a poem, what is it?
>>>  
>>> --Bob
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> New-Poetry mailing list
>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
>> 
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> 
> -- 
> Jerry McGuire
> Dept. of English
> University of Louisiana at Lafayette
> Lafayette LA 70506
> jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
> 337-482-5478
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From newpoetry at mikesnider.org  Tue Aug 28 14:28:04 2012
From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 14:28:04 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <4AF46F6297E34FC8A6774AD9F712FE33@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP> <1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
	<348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.or g>
	<8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CF52D2A0CA38F8-958-34F59@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>
	<0274CB9FB6B343 7E98D0FCD694E9799F@BobHP>
	<484B165D-24FF-4D14-A9DD-7AF25299A61E@mikesnider.org>
	<8CF5340C4FE171A-1DD4-35D9E@webmail-m152.sysops.a ol.com>
	<503CD93B.6020503@louisiana.edu>
	<C6D99248929B485DB02428581588D61B@BobHP>
	<8CF534AEA45E378-1DD4-367FE@webmail-m152.sysops. aol.com>
	<39D3B33CEA924BE6BD2E1E2896FE02E6@BobHP>
	<4AF46F6297E34FC8A6774AD9F712FE33@BobHP>
Message-ID: <395C05FA-C710-49E0-BB9D-AA6859C80825@mikesnider.org>

As you said earlier, Bob, your definition excludes prose poetry, which a large majority of educated English-language speakers accepts as poetry. It also includes many things a majority of educated English-language speakers don't consider to be poetry.  Good luck with your negotiations.

www.mikesnider.org

On Aug 28, 2012, at 14:22, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

> Might as well repeat my definition?because I may have made it clearer than it was.
> It requires two preliminary definitions.  First, there?s literature, which is verbal expression
> the intent of which, in the view of a consensus of intelligent, reasonable observers, is
> to provide asethetic pleasure, as opposed to what I call informrature, the intent of which
> to provide factual information, and advocature, the intent of which is to persuade.
>  
> For the purposes of my definition here I?ll accept ?aesthetic pleasure? as anything
> a given person thinks it is.  I haven?t yet worked out my own objective definition of it
> except to propose sensual pleasure as a part of it?sometimes; narrative pleasure and
> certain kinds of people-related pleasure I haven?t yet gotten quite straight
> are also part of it sometimes.  One or more of these must be present.
>  
> My second preliminary definition is of ?flow-breaks.  A flow-break is anything in
> a line aside from prose punctuation conventionally used that halts a reader?
> with no other significant effect. Hence, in the line, ?Where?s the baby????
> I can?t find him!!!!?  The question marks and exclamation marks express
> emotion as well as probably halting a reader, so are not flow-breaks.
> In the line, ?Where?s the baby%%%%I can?t find him,? the %s are flow-breaks.
>  
> Flow-breaks, which include spaces, lineate wherever they occur, lineation
> in my usage being taken to mean a halting of a line.
>  
> We?re now ready for my definition of poetry.  It is any verbally-expressive
> literary work that is lineated.  That?s it.  Since it?s a form of literature,
> it will have to intend to provide aesthetic pleasure (whether it does of
> not is irrelevant).
>  
> To demonstrate that my definition is ineffective, one needs to provide a
> specimen of something almost everybody would consider a poem that
> my definition does not cover.  Or find a specimen of something almost
> no one would consider a poem that my definition does cover.  Even that
> won?t work if your specimen is something extremely rare and trivial,
> since my definition only needs to be effective, not perfect.
>  
> By the way, Finnegan, this thread is a repeat of a thread Marcus Bales
> got exiled from New-Poetry because of his part in it, and I almost did.  But
> so far no one?s called anyone else an idiot.  If someone misrepresents
> what I say above more than eleven times in a row, though, I can?t
> promise not to use the term.
>  
> --Bob
>  
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Aug 28 15:16:29 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 15:16:29 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <395C05FA-C710-49E0-BB9D-AA6859C80825@mikesnider.org>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
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	041DE976@mikesnider.or
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	ol.com><503CD93B.6020503@louisiana.edu><C6D99248929B485DB02428581588D61B@BobHP><8CF534AEA45E378-1DD4-367FE@webmail-m152.sysops.
	aol.com><39D3B33CEA924BE6BD2E1E2896FE02E6@BobHP><4AF46F6297E34FC8A6774AD9F712FE33@BobHP>
	<395C05FA-C710-49E0-BB9D-AA6859C80825@mikesnider.org>
Message-ID: <D649BDEE846A4A86B9C099F50E78B9E4@BobHP>



From: Michael Snider 
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 2:28 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

As you said earlier, Bob, your definition excludes prose poetry, which a large majority of educated English-language speakers accepts as poetry. It also includes many things a majority of educated English-language speakers don't consider to be poetry.  Good luck with your negotiations.

Right.  May definition, in one form or another, has been out there for a while, 
awaiting the start of negotiations.  My definition cannot cover prose poetry, so
it will fall if the, uh, people in favor of prose poetry as poetry refuse to agree
it isn?t.  The problem for them will then be determining what is not poetry.  I
don?t see that they will be able to do it.  That will leave the term, ?poetry,? 
useless.  It will also mean a new term to cover lineated poetry because
there are a lot of people who don?t consider prose poetry poetry, AND--
much more important?people who will recognize the rather extreme
difference between lineated poetry and prose poetry.  For instance, that absence
of anything in a prose poem to force a reader to slow down and appreciate
its words as more than one denotation apiece, which for me is the essence
of poetry?it is what flow-breaks exist to bring about.

Similarly, the things that my definition that some don?t consider poetry are
probably mainly things most people don?t even know exist, know exist but
are ignorant about, or have a good idea of but are too narrow-minded to
broaden their ideas of poetry to accept.  I feel I have pretty good ideas
about why their poetry.  (See my guest blog, for example.)

In any case, only the details of my definition are original, if anything is.  I
decided on my own long ago that lineation was the basis of poetry, but later
ran into academics who believed that, too, and I?m sure there are critics
who have argued for it.

--Bob
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Tue Aug 28 16:01:50 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 13:01:50 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <4AF46F6297E34FC8A6774AD9F712FE33@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.or
	g><8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><8CF52D2A0CA38F8-958-34F59@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><0274CB9FB6B343
	7E98D0FCD694E9799F@BobHP><484B165D-24FF-4D14-A9DD-7AF25299A61E@mikesnider.org><8CF5340C4FE171A-1DD4-35D9E@webmail-m152.sysops.a
	ol.com><503CD93B.6020503@louisiana.edu><C6D99248929B485DB02428581588D61B@BobHP><8CF534AEA45E378-1DD4-367FE@webmail-m152.sysops.
	aol.com> <39D3B33CEA924BE6BD2E1E2896FE02E6@BobHP>
	<4AF46F6297E34FC8A6774AD9F712FE33@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1346184110.78964.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

? But
so far no one?s called anyone else an idiot.? If someone misrepresents
what I say above more than eleven times in a row, though, I can?t
promise not to use the term.
?
You've been counting, no doubt. 



________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


Might as well repeat my definition?because I may have made it clearer than it was.
It requires two preliminary definitions.? First, there?s literature, which is verbal expression
the intent of which, in the view of a consensus of intelligent, reasonable observers, is
to provide asethetic pleasure, as opposed to what I call informrature, the intent of which 
to provide factual information, and advocature, the intent of which is to persuade.

For the purposes of my definition here I?ll accept ?aesthetic pleasure? as anything
a given person thinks it is.? I haven?t yet worked out my own objective definition of it
except to propose sensual pleasure as a part of it?sometimes; narrative pleasure and
certain kinds of people-related pleasure I haven?t yet gotten quite straight 
are also part of it sometimes.? One or more of these must be present.

My second preliminary definition is of ?flow-breaks.? A flow-break is anything in 
a line aside from prose punctuation conventionally used that halts a reader?
with no other significant effect. Hence, in the line, ?Where?s the baby???? 
I can?t find him!!!!?? The question marks and exclamation marks express 
emotion as well as probably halting a reader, so are not flow-breaks.
In the line, ?Where?s the baby%%%%I can?t find him,? the %s are flow-breaks.

Flow-breaks, which include spaces, lineate wherever they occur, lineation
in my usage being taken to mean a halting of a line.

We?re now ready for my definition of poetry.? It is any verbally-expressive 
literary work that is lineated.? That?s it.? Since it?s a form of literature,
it will have to intend to provide aesthetic pleasure (whether it does of
not is irrelevant).

To demonstrate that my definition is ineffective, one needs to provide a
specimen of something almost everybody would consider a poem that
my definition does not cover.? Or find a specimen of something almost 
no one would consider a poem that my definition does cover.? Even that
won?t work if your specimen is something extremely rare and trivial,
since my definition only needs to be effective, not perfect.

By the way, Finnegan, this thread is a repeat of a thread Marcus Bales
got exiled from New-Poetry because of his part in it, and I almost did.? But
so far no one?s called anyone else an idiot.? If someone misrepresents
what I say above more than eleven times in a row, though, I can?t
promise not to use the term.

--Bob

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From newpoetry at mikesnider.org  Tue Aug 28 16:13:46 2012
From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 16:13:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <D649BDEE846A4A86B9C099F50E78B9E4@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
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	<348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF 041DE976@mikesnider.or g>
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	<8CF5340C4FE171A-1DD4-35D9E@webmail-m152.sysops.a ol.com>
	<503CD93B.6020503@louisiana.edu>
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	<8CF534AEA45E378-1DD4-367FE@webmail-m152.sysops. aol.com>
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	<D649BDEE846A4A86B9C099F50E78B9E4@BobHP>
Message-ID: <DAEE1B00-B46A-4CE8-BBBA-599EEF206005@mikesnider.org>

Just like "red." Bob, definitions outside of quantum mechanics are always incomplete and open to negotiation, and even there they depend on accepting probabilistic outcomes. All of human culture is negotiated, it shifts, it excludes and includes, and there are NO RIGHT ANSWERS to questions out side of some fields of mathematics and physics.

www.mikesnider.org

On Aug 28, 2012, at 15:16, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

> The problem for them will then be determining what is not poetry.  I
> don?t see that they will be able to do it.  That will leave the term, ?poetry,?
> useless
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From newpoetry at mikesnider.org  Tue Aug 28 17:09:52 2012
From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 17:09:52 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <D649BDEE846A4A86B9C099F50E78B9E4@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
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	<8CF5340C4FE171A-1DD4-35D9E@webmail-m152.sysops.a ol.com>
	<503CD93B.6020503@louisiana.edu>
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	<8CF534AEA45E378-1DD4-367FE@webmail-m152.sysops. aol.com>
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	<4AF46F6297E34FC8A6774AD9F712FE33@BobHP>
	<395C05FA-C710-49E0-BB9D-AA6859C80825@mikesnider.org>
	<D649BDEE846A4A86B9C099F50E78B9E4@BobHP>
Message-ID: <777C665C-E10B-45C4-A7C3-D26C3674D75A@mikesnider.org>

I understated the problem with definitiveness when I said, incorrectly, that there may be areas of math and science in which there is certainty.  G?del long ago proved that it is impossible to devise a complete and consistent description of all of mathematics which is both complete and consistent. If it can prove all correct theorems, it will necessarily also prove a maximal set of incorrect theorems.

www.mikesnider.org

On Aug 28, 2012, at 15:16, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

>  
>  
> From: Michael Snider
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 2:28 PM
> To: NewPoetry List
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>  
> As you said earlier, Bob, your definition excludes prose poetry, which a large majority of educated English-language speakers accepts as poetry. It also includes many things a majority of educated English-language speakers don't consider to be poetry.  Good luck with your negotiations.
> 
> Right.  May definition, in one form or another, has been out there for a while,
> awaiting the start of negotiations.  My definition cannot cover prose poetry, so
> it will fall if the, uh, people in favor of prose poetry as poetry refuse to agree
> it isn?t.  The problem for them will then be determining what is not poetry.  I
> don?t see that they will be able to do it.  That will leave the term, ?poetry,?
> useless.  It will also mean a new term to cover lineated poetry because
> there are a lot of people who don?t consider prose poetry poetry, AND--
> much more important?people who will recognize the rather extreme
> difference between lineated poetry and prose poetry.  For instance, that absence
> of anything in a prose poem to force a reader to slow down and appreciate
> its words as more than one denotation apiece, which for me is the essence
> of poetry?it is what flow-breaks exist to bring about.
>  
> Similarly, the things that my definition that some don?t consider poetry are
> probably mainly things most people don?t even know exist, know exist but
> are ignorant about, or have a good idea of but are too narrow-minded to
> broaden their ideas of poetry to accept.  I feel I have pretty good ideas
> about why their poetry.  (See my guest blog, for example.)
>  
> In any case, only the details of my definition are original, if anything is.  I
> decided on my own long ago that lineation was the basis of poetry, but later
> ran into academics who believed that, too, and I?m sure there are critics
> who have argued for it.
>  
> --Bob
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Aug 28 17:22:46 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 17:22:46 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <ABB19E39-38E5-4F0D-A7A5-02F5A24E8629@mikesnider.org>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.or
	g><8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><8CF52D2A0CA38F8-958-34F59@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><0274CB9FB6B343
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	ol.com><503CD93B.6020503@louisiana.edu><C6D99248929B485DB02428581588D61B@BobHP><8CF534AEA45E378-1DD4-367FE@webmail-m152.sysops.
	aol.com><39D3B33CEA924BE6BD2E1E2896FE02E6@BobHP>
	<ABB19E39-38E5-4F0D-A7A5-02F5A24E8629@mikesnider.org>
Message-ID: <0F2DF843DA304A4090D33E79FDD2B4BB@BobHP>



From: Michael Snider 
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 2:23 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

You'd think the definition of something like "red," based, as it is, on measurable frequencies of light, would be quite straightforward.

It?s certainly straight-forward now.  It wasn?t earlier because taxonomy seems to have been a late-developing science,
and most people don?t care about rigorous definitions.


It ain't. Look here:

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/magazine/riddled-with-irregularity/

Interesting article.  Thanks for the link to it, Michael.

Definitions, even of colors, are the result of complex interactions between the members of a community and between communities. Seems to me definitions a more like a dime a million unless they're the result of these communal negotiations. 

Definitions, like all cultural objects in life, require social acceptance, which takes a long time. 
The best definitions are made by the best definers, and accepted and used by specialists.
Poor definitions are good enough for most non-specialists.  And nullinguists, mainly
people who want to corrupt the language to facilitate propaganda, help keep
poor definitions the one used by the masses.

Anything else you wanna know?

--Bob


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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Aug 28 19:57:38 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 19:57:38 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <777C665C-E10B-45C4-A7C3-D26C3674D75A@mikesnider.org>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF
	041DE976@mikesnider.or
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	ol.com><503CD93B.6020503@louisiana.edu><C6D99248929B485DB02428581588D61B@BobHP><8CF534AEA45E378-1DD4-367FE@webmail-m152.sysops.
	aol.com><39D3B33CEA924BE6BD2E1E2896FE02E6@BobHP><4AF46F6297E34FC8A6774AD9F712FE33@BobHP><395C05FA-C710-49E0-BB9D-AA6859C80825@m
	ikesnider.org><D649BDEE846A4A86B9C099F50E78B9E4@BobHP>
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Message-ID: <89137736EAC44864B3FD7633C8639476@BobHP>

I understated the problem with definitiveness when I said, incorrectly, that there may be areas of math and science in which there is certainty.  G?del long ago proved that it is impossible to devise a complete and consistent description of all of mathematics which is both complete and consistent. If it can prove all correct theorems, it will necessarily also prove a maximal set of incorrect theorems.

www.mikesnider.org

Would G?del say we can?t be 100% sure that one plus one equals two?  
I think there are absolute certainties, but only by definition.

I just thought of a few other absolute certainties: mind and matter.  That
my mind exists is absolutely certain.  That it is aware of material reality,
by whatever name, is also absolutely certain.  I define, therefore I
exist and that which I define exists.

--Bob
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Aug 28 19:51:06 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 19:51:06 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <DAEE1B00-B46A-4CE8-BBBA-599EEF206005@mikesnider.org>
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	g><8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><8CF52D2A0CA38F8-958-34F59@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><0274CB9FB6B343
	7E98D0FCD694E9799F@BobHP><484B165D-24FF-4D14-A9DD-7AF25299A61E@mikesnider.org><8CF5340C4FE171A-1DD4-35D9E@webmail-m152.sysops.a
	ol.com><503CD93B.6020503@louisiana.edu><C6D99248929B485DB02428581588D61B@BobHP><8CF534AEA45E378-1DD4-367FE@webmail-m152.sysops.
	aol.com><39D3B33CEA924BE6BD2E1E2896FE02E6@BobHP><4AF46F6297E34FC8A6774AD9F712FE33@BobHP><395C05FA-C710-49E0-BB9D-AA6859C80825@m
	ikesnider.org><D649BDEE846A4A86B9C099F50E78B9E4@BobHP>
	<DAEE1B00-B46A-4CE8-BBBA-599EEF206005@mikesnider.org>
Message-ID: <142A7911451D4E27B223B13137B3BC52@BobHP>


Just like "red." Bob, definitions outside of quantum mechanics are always incomplete and open to negotiation, and even there they depend on accepting probabilistic outcomes. 
All of human culture is negotiated, it shifts, it excludes and includes, and there are NO RIGHT ANSWERS to questions out side of some fields of mathematics and physics.

www.mikesnider.org


  Mike, I would say that there are no 100% right answers but my only concern is with
  answers that should satisfy any rational person. Until further facts are known?none
  of which will more than slightly change the previous right answer, as Einstein?s (apparently)
  right answer to what gravity is changed Newton?s. We tend to over-rate new answers.
  Well, I should say, I tend to consider new answers much less overthrowing than others
  do: Copernicus, to me, didn?t change anything very much?although the change was
  extremely important and brilliantly worked out.
I wonder?are there any 100% right answers aside from pre-set ones like the
answer to what is one plus one? Artificially absolute correctness?

--Bob
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Tue Aug 28 20:26:09 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 20:26:09 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <142A7911451D4E27B223B13137B3BC52@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.or
	g><8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><8CF52D2A0CA38F8-958-34F59@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><0274CB9FB6B343
	7E98D0FCD694E9799F@BobHP><484B165D-24FF-4D14-A9DD-7AF25299A61E@mikesnider.org><8CF5340C4FE171A-1DD4-35D9E@webmail-m152.sysops.a
	ol.com><503CD93B.6020503@louisiana.edu><C6D99248929B485DB02428581588D61B@BobHP><8CF534AEA45E378-1DD4-367FE@webmail-m152.sysops.
	aol.com><39D3B33CEA924BE6BD2E1E2896FE02E6@BobHP><4AF46F6297E34FC8A6774AD9F712FE33@BobHP><395C05FA-C710-49E0-BB9D-AA6859C80825@m
	ikesnider.org><D649BDEE846A4A86B9C099F50E78B9E4@BobHP><DAEE1B00-B46A-4CE8-BBBA-599EEF206005@mikesnider.org>
	<142A7911451D4E27B223B13137B3BC52@BobHP>
Message-ID: <694A451D70D64C62969D735FA4426AA5@BobHP>

I?m presently reading the article Mike had the link to, which I skimmed&read before.
First thing I noticed this time is the assumption that language is only used
to communicate information.  Not for poetry.  Unless that comes up later.
I?m only to the second paragraph but I thought it worth a post.  The experts,
according to the article, feel a speaker wants his language to be simple,
require minimal effort to use, while a listener wants it to be clear, which
may require more effort from the speaker.  But a poet wants something
other than ease of expression, and so would those listeners capable of
appreciating poetry.

A thought I had while skim/reading it before was that it doesn?t explain
why ?red? seems to be the first color in all (or maybe only most) languages
to get a name.  The article favors its having gotten that through 
Mike?s social negotiation, but that doesn?t explain why social 
negotiation chose red to be the first named color.  

--Bob

From: bob grumman 
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 7:51 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


Just like "red." Bob, definitions outside of quantum mechanics are always incomplete and open to negotiation, and even there they depend on accepting probabilistic outcomes. 
All of human culture is negotiated, it shifts, it excludes and includes, and there are NO RIGHT ANSWERS to questions out side of some fields of mathematics and physics.

www.mikesnider.org

  Mike, I would say that there are no 100% right answers but my only concern is with
  answers that should satisfy any rational person. Until further facts are known?none
  of which will more than slightly change the previous right answer, as Einstein?s (apparently)
  right answer to what gravity is changed Newton?s. We tend to over-rate new answers.
  Well, I should say, I tend to consider new answers much less overthrowing than others
  do: Copernicus, to me, didn?t change anything very much?although the change was
  extremely important and brilliantly worked out.
I wonder?are there any 100% right answers aside from pre-set ones like the
answer to what is one plus one? Artificially absolute correctness?

--Bob


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From halvard at gmail.com  Tue Aug 28 20:30:57 2012
From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 19:30:57 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <1346092863.93160.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
	<32E2CA260DAB4CC684114D5A717BB93E@BobHP>
	<F6AECAE5-74FA-4FE7-928F-A400A5D31183@mikesnider.org>
	<1345679483.61456.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<FC3DA594DF684600AF71D8153B0461A6@BobHP>
	<1345749667.14243.YahooMailNeo@web162504.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<32CB68A845D14A0880B5737DC40670D9@BobHP>
	<88F09F90C55A472DB140FBEBF90A5C71@BobHP>
	<E02D3110-46C1-455C-A65E-B99CCB959EF6@mikesnider.org>
	<6D9DF2811E1643B1B98DF090016353DF@BobHP>
	<1345838278.38323.YahooMailNeo@web162501.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<7A51F741-9BC7-434F-90C6-8C0E668C347A@mikesnider.org>
	<1346092863.93160.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <CANrCfqF+OJ9pHTf_eV42PWWdZk-BcsiWU7zROdqNzns5TNW5eA@mail.gmail.com>

It's the light we're afraid of.


Mastering this universe one Higgs boson at a time.

Hal

Halvard Johnson
================

halvard at gmail.com

On Barcelona <http://onbarcelona.blogspot.com/> (submissions sought; email
to my address above)
Truck: http://halvard-johnson.blogspot.mx/
http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home
http://entropyandme.blogspot.com
http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com
http://www.hamiltonstone.org
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/
<http://www.hamiltonstone.org/>
Remains To Be Seen <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>*, Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. II) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>,** Remains
To Be Seen (Vol. III) <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Sonnets
from the Basque & Other Poems <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>
*, *Mainly Black <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>, *Obras
P?blicas <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **The Perfection
of Mozart's Third Eye and Other
Sonnets<http://www.scribd.com/doc/27039868/Halvard-Johnson-THE-PERFECTION-OF-MOZART-S-THIRD-EYE-Other-Sonnets>
; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of
Clones<http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Entrance-Clones-Halvard-Johnson/dp/0965404390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283182804&sr=8-1>
; **Tango Bouquet <https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/>; **Theory
of Harmony<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall04/theory1.pdf>
; **Rapsodie espagnole<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/rapsodi.pdf>
; **Guide to the Tokyo
Subway<http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Tokyo-Subway-Other-Poems/dp/0971487316/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283183153&sr=1-3>
; **The Sonnet Project<https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/hsonnet.pdf>
; **G(e)nome <http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall03/genome.pdf>; **Winter
Journey <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.winter.html>;
**Eclipse<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.eclipse.html>
; **The Dance of the Red Swan <http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.dance.html>
; **Transparencies & Projections<http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.transp.html>
*




On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 1:41 PM, stephen russell <
poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote:

> Higamous hogamous
>
> ... funny ... pig Latin ... I first came across the form while reading
> Leon Stokesbury. He was a graduate student at Florida State at the time.
> I'm talking ancient history.
>
> I enjoy light verse. Not many poets seem attracted to the form. Maybe the
> technical difficulties scare them.
>
>   *From:* Michael Snider <newpoetry at mikesnider.org>
> *To:* NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> *Sent:* Friday, August 24, 2012 6:57 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>
>
>
> http://www.mikesnider.org/
>
> On Aug 24, 2012, at 15:57, stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
>   Anthony Hect was comfortable reading his ornate poems in a casual
> voice. For special effects, or silly histrionics, or the sort of lavish
> reading style that Bob advocates, attend an open  mic spoken word event.
>
> Double Dactyl
>
> Hecht is also notably one of the inventors of the double dactyl<http://us.mg6.mail.yahoo.com/wiki/Double_dactyl>,
> a form of light verse <http://us.mg6.mail.yahoo.com/wiki/Light_poetry>.
> In his weekly on-line chat on January 22, 2008, Gene Weingarten<http://us.mg6.mail.yahoo.com/wiki/Gene_Weingarten>of the
> *Washington Post <http://us.mg6.mail.yahoo.com/wiki/Washington_Post>*wrote a double dactyl to honor Hecht:
>  Higgledy Piggledy Anthony Hecht, who could [9]<http://us.mg6.mail.yahoo.com/neo/#cite_note-8> Write
> about death in words Epic yet warm, Went to his own with some
> Counterintuitive Logic; his legacy's This stupid form.
>
>
>
> I love double dactyls ? for a time I was obsessed with them. Here are a
> few:
>
> Bippity boppety
> young Willie Yeats and his
> friends tried to conjure the
> soul of a plant.
> Madame Blavatsky cried
> ?William, you?re exiled since
> Theosophistically?
> Well, you just can?t.?
>
> Century Schmentury
> Denys The Small made an
> error (of many) which
> causes debate.
> Sans the year Zero the
> 21st Century
> chrono-pedantically
> comes one year late.
>
> Douglas R. Hofstadter
>
>
> Higgledy Piggledy
> Douglas R. Hofstadter,
> G?del's explainer, is
> Translating verse.
> Pushkin?s Onegin?s his
> Latest adventure?he's
> Uncontrovertibly
> Under a curse.
>
> Higamous hogamous
> Thomas Stearns Eliot
> once ate at dinner a-
> nonymous cheese.
> Kenner explained that this
> meant the great poet was
> characteristically
> hiding to please.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
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From jforjames at aol.com  Tue Aug 28 21:51:31 2012
From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com)
Date: Tue, 28 Aug 2012 21:51:31 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <89137736EAC44864B3FD7633C8639476@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF
	041DE976@mikesnider.or
	g><8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><8CF52D2A0CA38F8-958-34F59@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><0274CB9FB6B343
	7E98D0FCD694E9799F@BobHP><484B165D-24FF-4D14-A9DD-7AF25299A61E@mikesnider.org><8CF5340C4FE171A-1DD4-35D9E@webmail-m152.sysops.a
	ol.com><503CD93B.6020503@louisiana.edu><C6D99248929B485DB02428581588D61B@BobHP><8CF534AEA45E378-1DD4-367FE@webmail-m152.sysops.
	aol.com><39D3B33CEA924BE6BD2E1E2896FE02E6@BobHP><4AF46F6297E34FC8A6774AD9F712FE33@BobHP><395C05FA-C710-49E0-BB9D-AA6859C80825@m
	ikesnider.org><D649BDEE846A4A86B9C099F50E78B9E4@BobHP>
	<777C665C-E10B-45C4-A7C3-D26C3674D75A@mikesnider.org>
	<89137736EAC44864B3FD7633C8639476@BobHP>
Message-ID: <8CF539FECB1E4BA-1198-41AB9@webmail-d027.sysops.aol.com>


Since we're getting into deep weeds of philosophy here, Bob, I think Bishop Berkeley would disagree with you.

Finnegan

-----Original Message-----
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tue, Aug 28, 2012 7:58 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry




I understated the problem with definitiveness when I said, incorrectly, that there may be areas of math and science in which there is certainty.  G?del long ago proved that it is impossible to devise a complete and consistent description of all of mathematics which is both complete and consistent. If it can prove all correct theorems, it will necessarily also prove a maximal set of incorrect theorems.

www.mikesnider.org

Would G?del say we can?t be 100% sure that one plus one equals two?  
I think there are absolute certainties, but only by definition.
 
I just thought of a few other absolute certainties: mind and matter.  That
my mind exists is absolutely certain.  That it is aware of material reality,
by whatever name, is also absolutely certain.  I define, therefore I
exist and that which I define exists.
 
--Bob

 
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

 
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From junction at earthlink.net  Wed Aug 29 14:37:36 2012
From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 12:37:36 -0600
Subject: [New-Poetry] NewPoetry
Message-ID: <E1T6fWA-0002yR-L7@elasmtp-galgo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>

NewPoetry hey I cant believe how easy it was to get started its never too late to start doing this http://ad.uk.doubleclick.net/clk;209394301;31304475;x?http://cnbc.com-idn.us i would like you to see the benefits of this before you change your mind



From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Aug 29 09:17:30 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 09:17:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <8CF539FECB1E4BA-1198-41AB9@webmail-d027.sysops.aol.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.org><8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><8CF52D2A0CA38F8-958-34F59@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><0274CB9FB6B3437E98D0FCD694E9799F@BobHP><484B165D-24FF-4D14-A9DD-7AF25299A61E@mikesnider.org><8CF5340C4FE171A-1DD4-35D9E@webmail-m152.sysops.aol.com><503CD93B.6020503@louisiana.edu><C6D99248929B485DB02428581588D61B@BobHP><8CF534AEA45E378-1DD4-367FE@webmail-m152.sysops.aol.com><39D3B33CEA924BE6BD2E1E2896FE02E6@BobHP><4AF46F6297E34FC8A6774AD9F712FE33@BobHP><395C05FA-C710-49E0-BB9D-AA6859C80825@mikesnider.org><D649BDEE846A4A86B9C099F50E78B9E4@BobHP><777C665C-E10B-45C4-A7C3-D26C3674D75A@mikesnider.org><89137736EAC44864B3FD7633C8639476@BobHP>
	<8CF539FECB1E4BA-1198-41AB9@webmail-d027.sysops.aol.com>
Message-ID: <0E4DAB8C4EAC48C3B1076B478BC4581D@BobHP>

Did Berkeley say reality didn?t exist?  What was he talking about?  What was this ?reality? he said didn?t exist?
What was he, speaking, in if not reality?

--Bob

From: jforjames at aol.com 
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 9:51 PM
To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

Since we're getting into deep weeds of philosophy here, Bob, I think Bishop Berkeley would disagree with you.

Finnegan

-----Original Message-----
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
Sent: Tue, Aug 28, 2012 7:58 pm
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


I understated the problem with definitiveness when I said, incorrectly, that there may be areas of math and science in which there is certainty.  G?del long ago proved that it is impossible to devise a complete and consistent description of all of mathematics which is both complete and consistent. If it can prove all correct theorems, it will necessarily also prove a maximal set of incorrect theorems.

www.mikesnider.org

Would G?del say we can?t be 100% sure that one plus one equals two?  
I think there are absolute certainties, but only by definition.

I just thought of a few other absolute certainties: mind and matter.  That
my mind exists is absolutely certain.  That it is aware of material reality,
by whatever name, is also absolutely certain.  I define, therefore I
exist and that which I define exists.

--Bob
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
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From anny.ballardini at gmail.com  Wed Aug 29 09:54:09 2012
From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 15:54:09 +0200
Subject: [New-Poetry] spam attack
In-Reply-To: <32749733.1346177698206.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
References: <32749733.1346177698206.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net>
Message-ID: <CA+9UsyR_FtDiYqMSr6mrna2BRHnWdTk7_mNq=te7cWsko42NMA@mail.gmail.com>

Better go with plenty of sweaters and rubber boots, at least from my
experience.
Have a great stay, by the way, I am talking to the Mark in Scotland.

On Tue, Aug 28, 2012 at 8:14 PM, <junction at earthlink.net> wrote:

> My heart's already in the highlands, so I can't answer.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bob grumman **
> Sent: Aug 28, 2012 1:53 PM
> To: NewPoetry List **
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] spam attack
>
> **** ** **
>  What if we like him better than you, Mark?
>
> --Bob
>
>  *From:* junction at earthlink.net
> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 28, 2012 1:25 PM
> *To:* NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] spam attack
>
> It's the guy in the mirror. His identity card looks good, but it's in
> reverse. Very suspicious.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jerry McGuire **
> Sent: Aug 28, 2012 1:10 PM
> To: NewPoetry List **
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] spam attack
>
> ************Yes, sure, but is _this_ the real Mark?
>
> Jerry (bon voyage)
>
> On 8/28/2012 12:00 PM, junction at earthlink.net wrote:
>
> As has been noted, my email list has been hijacked for a phishing expedition.No need to open anything from me with the subject line "hey" or "hi." if you do, don't click on the attachment and no harm's done. These things usually resolve themselves, but if not I'll do what needs to be done. Lousy timing--I leave for Scotland in two hours, there to remain till Oct 1.
>
> Best,
> Mark
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> --
> ________________________________________________________
>
> Jerry McGuire
> English Department    Box 44691
> University of Louisiana at Lafayette
> Lafayette LA 70504-4691337-482-5478
> Creative Writing Website: http://english.louisiana.edu/creativewriting/creative%20writing%20home.html
> ______________________________________________________
>
>
> ********
>
>  ------------------------------
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> **** ****
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>


-- 
Anny Ballardini
http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/
http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome
http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078
http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html
I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing
star!
Friedrich Nietzsche

? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique
vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?
Giovenale
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From newpoetry at mikesnider.org  Wed Aug 29 12:08:41 2012
From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 12:08:41 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <0E4DAB8C4EAC48C3B1076B478BC4581D@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
	<348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.org>
	<8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>
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	<484B165D-24FF-4D14-A9DD-7AF25299A61E@mikesnider.org>
	<8CF5340C4FE171A-1DD4-35D9E@webmail-m152.sysops.aol.com>
	<503CD93B.6020503@louisiana.edu>
	<C6D99248929B485DB02428581588D61B@BobHP>
	<8CF534AEA45E378-1DD4-367FE@webmail-m152.sysops.aol.com>
	<39D3B33CEA924BE6BD2E1E2896FE02E6@BobHP>
	<4AF46F6297E34FC8A6774AD9F712FE33@BobHP>
	<395C05FA-C710-49E0-BB9D-AA6859C80825@mikesnider.org>
	<D649BDEE846A4A86B9C099F50E78B9E4@BobHP>
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	<89137736EAC44864B3FD7633C8639476@BobHP>
	<8CF539FECB1E4BA-1198-41AB9@webmail-d027.sysops.aol.com> <0E
	4DAB8C4EAC48C3B1076B478BC4581D@BobHP>
Message-ID: <A1D9D338-F5D1-453A-AB31-049CE7E1CAF9@mikesnider.org>

Berkeley argued that nothing exists except as perceived, that tables and chairs (for example) were only ideas in the mind of observers, and that we could all agree about the world as well as we do only because a benevolent god perceived all of everything.

But leaving Berkeley aside, Bob, definitions are nearly always negotiated in a particular community, they change over time (sometimes very quickly), they don't always refer to real things, and there are undoubtedly many real things for which we have no definitions. Definitions are always provisional and have no necessary relationship to reality.

By the way ? when you're adding vectors, one plus one equals two only in the special case where the ratios of their respective x and y displacements both equal one.

Here's Louis MacNeice's poem "Snow"


The room was suddenly rich and the great bay-window was
Spawning snow and pink roses against it
Soundlessly collateral and incompatible:
World is suddener than we fancy it.

World is crazier and more of it than we think,
Incorrigibly plural. I peel and portion
A tangerine and spit the pips and feel
The drunkenness of things being various.

And the fire flames with a bubbling sound for world
Is more spiteful and gay than one supposes -
On the tongue on the eyes on the ears in the palms of one's hands -
There is more than glass between the snow and the huge roses.


www.mikesnider.org

On Aug 29, 2012, at 9:17, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

> Did Berkeley say reality didn?t exist?  What was he talking about?  What was this ?reality? he said didn?t exist?
> What was he, speaking, in if not reality?
>  
> --Bob
>  
> From: jforjames at aol.com
> Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 9:51 PM
> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>  
> Since we're getting into deep weeds of philosophy here, Bob, I think Bishop Berkeley would disagree with you.
>  
> Finnegan
>  
> -----Original Message-----
> From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
> Sent: Tue, Aug 28, 2012 7:58 pm
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
> 
> I understated the problem with definitiveness when I said, incorrectly, that there may be areas of math and science in which there is certainty.  G?del long ago proved that it is impossible to devise a complete and consistent description of all of mathematics which is both complete and consistent. If it can prove all correct theorems, it will necessarily also prove a maximal set of incorrect theorems.
> 
> www.mikesnider.org
> 
> Would G?del say we can?t be 100% sure that one plus one equals two? 
> I think there are absolute certainties, but only by definition.
>  
> I just thought of a few other absolute certainties: mind and matter.  That
> my mind exists is absolutely certain.  That it is aware of material reality,
> by whatever name, is also absolutely certain.  I define, therefore I
> exist and that which I define exists.
>  
> --Bob
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Aug 29 12:47:01 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 12:47:01 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <A1D9D338-F5D1-453A-AB31-049CE7E1CAF9@mikesnider.org>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooM
	g><8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><8CF52D2A0CA38F8-958-34F59@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><0274CB9FB6B343
	7E98D0FCD694E9799F@BobHP><484B165D-24FF-4D14-A9DD-7AF25299A61E@mikesnider.org><8CF5340C4FE171A-1DD4-35D9E@webmail-m152.sysops.a
	ol.com><503CD93B.6020503@louisiana.edu><C6D99248929B485DB02428581588D61B@BobHP><8CF534AEA45E378-1DD4-367FE@webmail-m152.sysops.
	aol.com><39D3B33CEA924BE6BD2E1E2896FE02E6@BobHP><4AF46F6297E34FC8A6774AD9F712FE33@BobHP><395C05FA-C710-49E0-BB9D-AA6859C80825@m
	ikesnider.org><D649BDEE846A4A86B9C099F50E78B9E4@BobHP><777C665C-E10B-45C4-A7C3-D26C3674D75A@mikesnider.org><89137736EAC44864B3F
	D7633C8639476@BobHP><8CF539FECB1E4BA-1198-41AB9@webmail-d027.sysops.aol.com>
	<0E4DAB8C4EAC48C3B1076B478BC4581D@BobHP>
	<A1D9D338-F5D1-453A-AB31-049CE7E1CAF9@mikesnider.org>
Message-ID: <EB965E209ABF43E18A951524CA1A620C@BobHP>


Berkeley argued that nothing exists except as perceived, that tables and chairs (for example) were only ideas in the mind of observers, and that we could all agree about the world as well as we do only because a benevolent god perceived all of everything.

But leaving Berkeley aside, Bob, definitions are nearly always negotiated in a particular community, they change over time (sometimes very quickly), they don't always refer to real things, 

That may not be certain.  For instance, ?ghost? properly defined is something real that causes
fools to believe it is an invisible dead person, maybe in the external environment but more
likely in the person?s brain.  And, of course, there are many words for relationships, which
you might say are not real things.

and there are undoubtedly many real things for which we have no definitions. Definitions are always provisional and have no necessary relationship to reality.

So you say.  You?ll just have to wait for my monograph to find out why you are 
either wrong or expressing a truism.  I would remind you that I?ve said or
implied that I certainly accept that there are many bad words, many 
words-in-progress, and much not yet with a name.  But there are many good words,
words that will mean what they say until hearing and/or vocal cords or language of 
a conquerer change or destroy them.  I?m not sure but I
think my belief has to do with definitions, anyway, not words.  For instance, 
I believe there will always be a definition for sky that every
mentally healthy person agrees with, although not all will have the same 
word for it.  If that makes sense.  It does to me but it also isn?t the way most
would look at it.

I don?t see what negotiation has to do with it.  A thing at some point is seen
to need a name by someone who names it, thereby loosely defining it (or rigorously 
if he?s a verosopher?my name for serious truth-seeker such as a physicist or historian
or even poetry critic).  Negotiation then takes place but the only thing that?s relevant
is that eventually the name acquires a responsible definition, usually given to it by
someone like me.  When that happens, eventually superior people will accept the
definition.  The masses will not be able to accept anything more than an American
Heritage definition, which is really only a description?not even a characterization.

It?s like facts.  Natural selection is a fact even though many people won?t accept it 
as such.  It is part of the definition of species for the mentally healthy but not for
others.   

By the way ? when you're adding vectors, one plus one equals two only in the special case where the ratios of their respective x and y displacements both equal one.

In arithmetic, one plus one always equals two.  Vectors are a special case and I forget what I once knew about them.

Here's Louis MacNeice's poem "Snow"


The room was suddenly rich and the great bay-window was
Spawning snow and pink roses against it
Soundlessly collateral and incompatible:
World is suddener than we fancy it.

World is crazier and more of it than we think,
Incorrigibly plural. I peel and portion
A tangerine and spit the pips and feel
The drunkenness of things being various.

And the fire flames with a bubbling sound for world
Is more spiteful and gay than one supposes -
On the tongue on the eyes on the ears in the palms of one's hands -
There is more than glass between the snow and the huge roses. 

Most poets agree that the world they perceive is
much better than the sterile one verosophers analyze.
I?m with them sometimes, but I?m also with the
verosopher who finds the world suddenly to be 
less various than it was thought to be.

--Bob
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From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu  Wed Aug 29 13:04:03 2012
From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 12:04:03 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <A1D9D338-F5D1-453A-AB31-049CE7E1CAF9@mikesnider.org>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
	<348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.org>
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	<8CF534AEA45E378-1DD4-367FE@webmail-m152.sysops.aol.com>
	<39D3B33CEA924BE6BD2E1E2896FE02E6@BobHP>
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	<89137736EAC44864B3FD7633C8639476@BobHP>
	<8CF539FECB1E4BA-1198-41AB9@webmail-d027.sysops.aol.com> <0E
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	<A1D9D338-F5D1-453A-AB31-049CE7E1CAF9@mikesnider.org>
Message-ID: <503E4B83.8040201@louisiana.edu>

Maybe it's time to agree that definition exists as Bob perceives it. I 
sense being caught up in a Grand Circularity.

Cheers,

Jerry

On 8/29/2012 11:08 AM, Michael Snider wrote:
> Berkeley argued that nothing exists except as perceived, that tables 
> and chairs (for example) were only ideas in the mind of observers, and 
> that we could all agree about the world as well as we do only because 
> a benevolent god perceived all of everything.
>
> But leaving Berkeley aside, Bob, definitions are nearly always 
> negotiated in a particular community, they change over time (sometimes 
> very quickly), they don't always refer to real things, and there are 
> undoubtedly many real things for which we have no definitions. 
> Definitions are always provisional and have no necessary relationship 
> to reality.
>
> By the way --- when you're adding vectors, one plus one equals two 
> only in the special case where the ratios of their respective x and y 
> displacements both equal one.
>
> Here's Louis MacNeice's poem "Snow"
>
>
> The room was suddenly rich and the great bay-window was
> Spawning snow and pink roses against it
> Soundlessly collateral and incompatible:
> World is suddener than we fancy it.
>
> World is crazier and more of it than we think,
> Incorrigibly plural. I peel and portion
> A tangerine and spit the pips and feel
> The drunkenness of things being various.
>
> And the fire flames with a bubbling sound for world
> Is more spiteful and gay than one supposes -
> On the tongue on the eyes on the ears in the palms of one's hands -
> There is more than glass between the snow and the huge roses.
>
>
> www.mikesnider.org <http://www.mikesnider.org>
>
> On Aug 29, 2012, at 9:17, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net 
> <mailto:bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>> wrote:
>
>> Did Berkeley say reality didn't exist?  What was he talking about?  
>> What was this "reality" he said didn't exist?
>> What was he, speaking, in if not reality?
>> --Bob
>> *From:* jforjames at aol.com <mailto:jforjames at aol.com>
>> *Sent:* Tuesday, August 28, 2012 9:51 PM
>> *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>> Since we're getting into deep weeds of philosophy here, Bob, I think 
>> Bishop Berkeley would disagree with you.
>> Finnegan
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net 
>> <mailto:bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>>
>> To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
>> <mailto:new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>>
>> Sent: Tue, Aug 28, 2012 7:58 pm
>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>>
>> I understated the problem with definitiveness when I said, 
>> incorrectly, that there may be areas of math and science in which 
>> there is certainty.  G?del long ago proved that it is impossible to 
>> devise a complete and consistent description of all of mathematics 
>> which is both complete and consistent. If it can prove all correct 
>> theorems, it will necessarily also prove a maximal set of incorrect 
>> theorems.
>>
>> www.mikesnider.org <http://www.mikesnider.org>
>>
>> Would G?del say we can't be 100% sure that one plus one equals two?
>> I think there /are/ absolute certainties, but only by definition.
>> I just thought of a few other absolute certainties: mind and matter.  
>> That
>> my mind exists is absolutely certain. That it is aware of material 
>> reality,
>> by whatever name, is also absolutely certain.  I define, therefore I
>> exist and that which I define exists.
>> --Bob
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu  <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu <mailto:New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

-- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506
jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
337-482-5478

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From newpoetry at mikesnider.org  Wed Aug 29 13:30:00 2012
From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 13:30:00 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <503E4B83.8040201@louisiana.edu>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
	<348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.org>
	<8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CF52D2A0CA38F8-958-34F59@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>
	<0274CB9FB6B3437E98D0FCD694E9799F@BobHP>
	<484B165D-24FF-4D14-A9DD-7AF25299A61E@mikesnider.org>
	<8CF5340C4FE171A-1DD4-35D9E@webmail-m152.sysops.aol.com>
	<503CD93B.6020503@louisiana.edu>
	<C6D99248929B485DB02428581588D61B@BobHP>
	<8CF534AEA45E378-1DD4-367FE@webmail-m152.sysops.aol.com>
	<39D3B33CEA924BE6BD2E1E2896FE02E6@BobHP>
	<4AF46F6297E34FC8A6774AD9F712FE33@BobHP>
	<395C05FA-C710-49E0-BB9D-AA6859C80825@mikesnider.org>
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	<777C665C-E10B-45C4-A7C3-D26C3674D75A@mikesnider.org>
	<89137736EAC44864B3FD7633C8639476@BobHP>
	<8CF539FECB1E4BA-1198-41AB9@webmail-d027.sysops.aol.com> <0E
	4DAB8C4EAC48C3B1076B478BC4581D@BobHP>
	<A1D9D338-F5D1-453A-AB31-049CE7E1CAF9@mikesnider.org> <503E4B
	83.8040201@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <8537C52E-00AD-4FEF-BF84-17E46EFD772D@mikesnider.org>

Well, it does ... as Bob perceives it.

www.mikesnider.org

On Aug 29, 2012, at 13:04, Jerry McGuire <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu> wrote:

> Maybe it's time to agree that definition exists as Bob perceives it. I sense being caught up in a Grand Circularity.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Jerry


From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu  Wed Aug 29 13:41:56 2012
From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 12:41:56 -0500
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <8537C52E-00AD-4FEF-BF84-17E46EFD772D@mikesnider.org>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>
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	<39D3B33CEA924BE6BD2E1E2896FE02E6@BobHP>
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	<777C665C-E10B-45C4-A7C3-D26C3674D75A@mikesnider.org>
	<89137736EAC44864B3FD7633C8639476@BobHP>
	<8CF539FECB1E4BA-1198-41AB9@webmail-d027.sysops.aol.com> <0E
	4DAB8C4EAC48C3B1076B478BC4581D@BobHP>
	<A1D9D338-F5D1-453A-AB31-049CE7E1CAF9@mikesnider.org> <503E4B
	83.8040201@louisiana.edu>
	<8537C52E-00AD-4FEF-BF84-17E46EFD772D@mikesnider.org>
Message-ID: <503E5464.8050102@louisiana.edu>

Or as I perceive how you perceive how Bob perceives it: which (as Bishop 
Berkeley would point out) says nothing in particular about Bob. But 
remember Dr. Johnson's great refutation.

Jerry

On 8/29/2012 12:30 PM, Michael Snider wrote:
> Well, it does ... as Bob perceives it.
>
> www.mikesnider.org
>
> On Aug 29, 2012, at 13:04, Jerry McGuire <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu> wrote:
>
>> Maybe it's time to agree that definition exists as Bob perceives it. I sense being caught up in a Grand Circularity.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Jerry
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>

-- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506
jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
337-482-5478

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From newpoetry at mikesnider.org  Wed Aug 29 14:17:11 2012
From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 14:17:11 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <503E5464.8050102@louisiana.edu>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>
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	<484B165D-24FF-4D14-A9DD-7AF25299A61E@mikesnider.org>
	<8CF5340C4FE171A-1DD4-35D9E@webmail-m152.sysops.aol.com>
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	<89137736EAC44864B3FD7633C8639476@BobHP>
	<8CF539FECB1E4BA-1198-41AB9@webmail-d027.sysops.aol.com> <0E
	4DAB8C4EAC48C3B1076B478BC4581D@BobHP>
	<A1D9D338-F5D1-453A-AB31-049CE7E1CAF9@mikesnider.org> <503E4B
	83.8040201@louisiana.edu>
	<8537C52E-00AD-4FEF-BF84-17E46EFD772D@mikesnider.org>
	<503E5464.8050 102@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <27B6053E-0B47-441A-AC8E-244256BADCC9@mikesnider.org>

Remember Richard Wilbur's "Epistemology":


I.
Kick at the rock, Sam Johnson, break your bones:
But cloudy, cloudy is the stuff of stones.

II.
We milk the cow of the world, and as we do
We whisper in her ear, 'You are not true.'



www.mikesnider.org

On Aug 29, 2012, at 13:41, Jerry McGuire <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu> wrote:

> Or as I perceive how you perceive how Bob perceives it: which (as Bishop Berkeley would point out) says nothing in particular about Bob. But remember Dr. Johnson's great refutation.
> 
> Jerry
> 
> On 8/29/2012 12:30 PM, Michael Snider wrote:
>> Well, it does ... as Bob perceives it.
>> 
>> www.mikesnider.org
>> 
>> On Aug 29, 2012, at 13:04, Jerry McGuire <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu> wrote:
>> 
>>> Maybe it's time to agree that definition exists as Bob perceives it. I sense being caught up in a Grand Circularity.
>>> 
>>> Cheers,
>>> 
>>> Jerry
>> _______________________________________________
>> New-Poetry mailing list
>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
>> 
> 
> -- 
> Jerry McGuire
> Dept. of English
> University of Louisiana at Lafayette
> Lafayette LA 70506
> jlm8047 at louisiana.edu
> 337-482-5478
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 29 14:49:40 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 11:49:40 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: the Great Agrarian
In-Reply-To: <1346266050.73956.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1346266050.73956.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1346266180.4058.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>



... sure, it's good to see the definition of the thing itself (poetry) being argued and defined, but Wendell Berry, the great agrarian, offers another definition, and one that anticipates the Occupied movement by nearly 3 decades.

Wendell Berry defines a corporation as --

A corporation is, essentially, a pile of money to which a number of persons have sold their moral
allegiance. 
?

The defining word in the above sentence is sold. 
Wendell Berry for President.
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Aug 29 15:13:47 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 15:13:47 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <27B6053E-0B47-441A-AC8E-244256BADCC9@mikesnider.org>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><8CF52D
	ikesnider.org><8CF5340C4FE171A-1DD4-35D9E@webmail-m152.sysops.aol.com><503CD93B.6020503@louisiana.edu><C6D99248929B485DB0242858
	1588D61B@BobHP><8CF534AEA45E378-1DD4-367FE@webmail-m152.sysops.aol.com><39D3B33CEA924BE6BD2E1E2896FE02E6@BobHP><4AF46F6297E34FC
	8A6774AD9F712FE33@BobHP><395C05FA-C710-49E0-BB9D-AA6859C80825@mikesnider.org><D649BDEE846A4A86B9C099F50E78B9E4@BobHP><777C665C-
	E10B-45C4-A7C3-D26C3674D75A@mikesnider.org><89137736EAC44864B3FD7633C8639476@BobHP><8CF539FECB1E4BA-1198-41AB9@webmail-d027.sys
	ops.aol.com>
	<0E4DAB8C4EAC48C3B1076B478BC4581D@BobHP><A1D9D338-F5D1-453A-AB31-049CE7E1CAF9@mikesnider.org>
	<503E4B83.8040201@louisiana.edu><8537C52E-00AD-4FEF-BF84-17E46EFD772D@mikesnider.org><503E5464.8050
	102@louisiana.edu>
	<27B6053E-0B47-441A-AC8E-244256BADCC9@mikesnider.org>
Message-ID: <295275D59E164326BAF64FA56D65272E@BobHP>



From: Michael Snider 
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 2:17 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

Remember Richard Wilbur's "Epistemology":


I.
Kick at the rock, Sam Johnson, break your bones:
But cloudy, cloudy is the stuff of stones.

Wrong.  The correct definition of ?cloudy? is
something that looks solid but can be penetrated
by a feather pushed gently against it.  As opposed
to something that looks solid and is hard to 
penetrate.  Still, Sam?s refutation was silly.


II.
We milk the cow of the world, and as we do
We whisper in her ear, 'You are not true.'



www.mikesnider.org

What?s dumb about this is that if the cow is not true, what is?
People don?t understand that a word (properly used) is intended 
to distinguish what it denotes from everything it does not denote.  
If nothing is true, then what does word the word, ?true,? denote?  
If it denotes nothing, what is the use of it?  In actuality, for fools
it denotes that which seems real but is not from that which
does not seem real, and isn?t.  I would define it (in brief) as 
that which is real whether it is or not.  To define it at length, 
I would have to define reality, which I think I can but it would 
take too long, and why bother since nullinguism (i.e., Halism) 
is pretty much the order of the day?

--Bob

--Bob
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From theoldmole at gmail.com  Wed Aug 29 14:40:28 2012
From: theoldmole at gmail.com (Tad Richards)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 14:40:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <0274CB9FB6B3437E98D0FCD694E9799F@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
	<1345668596.235.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP>
	<348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.org>
	<8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com>
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	<0274CB9FB6B3437E98D0FCD694E9799F@BobHP>
Message-ID: <DD25C17D-D34F-4560-BD13-BB95A16256C6@gmail.com>

I have to agree with Bob. Any definition of art that also tries to be a definition of good art is heading for trouble.

Another question, however, about defining poetry. Why? Why are we defining it? For who? What is that person or group to do with the definition, and how will it benefit him/her/them? Doesn't that make a difference to the definition?

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 28, 2012, at 7:16 AM, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

> . . . Michael, isn't "rhythmically organized imitation of speech" only an 'attribute' of poetry
> (and certain kinds of poetry at that)? Couldn't we easily construct a text that was "rhythmically
> organized imitation of speech" but failed miserably to be a poem. Isn't poemness more than
> its attributes (or characterizations)?
> .
> Finnegan
>  
> My answer: no, we couldn?t.  If the text is lineated and rhythmically organized,
> it is (objectively) a poem. What it may not be is an effective poem, which is
> what you want to (subjectively) define, Finnegan.
>  
> e.g.:  I am in forest.
>          What egg?
>  
> This is a lineated text that is neither propaganda ore mere information.
> It is therefore a poem.  That it will strike almost everyone as a bad poem
> is irrelevant.  If it is not a poem, what is it?
>  
> --Bob
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Aug 29 15:20:49 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 15:20:49 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: the Great Agrarian
In-Reply-To: <1346266180.4058.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1346266050.73956.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<1346266180.4058.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <F47DC7737CE1445E98127F6E8B7C137C@BobHP>

I sorta like Berry but his definition is completely
insane?and so does anticipate the Occupied Movement.

A pile of money: something only you and your 
family and friends should have, without working
for it.

--Bob

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 2:49 PM
To: New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: the Great Agrarian



... sure, it's good to see the definition of the thing itself (poetry) being argued and defined, but Wendell Berry, the great agrarian, offers another definition, and one that anticipates the Occupied movement by nearly 3 decades.

Wendell Berry defines a corporation as --

A corporation is, essentially, a pile of money to which a number of persons have sold their moral
allegiance. 


The defining word in the above sentence is sold. 
Wendell Berry for President.





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 29 15:23:20 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 12:23:20 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <89137736EAC44864B3FD7633C8639476@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF
	041DE976@mikesnider.or
	g><8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><8CF52D2A0CA38F8-958-34F59@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><0274CB9FB6B343
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	ol.com><503CD93B.6020503@louisiana.edu><C6D99248929B485DB02428581588D61B@BobHP><8CF534AEA45E378-1DD4-367FE@webmail-m152.sysops.
	aol.com><39D3B33CEA924BE6BD2E1E2896FE02E6@BobHP><4AF46F6297E34FC8A6774AD9F712FE33@BobHP><395C05FA-C710-49E0-BB9D-AA6859C80825@m
	ikesnider.org><D649BDEE846A4A86B9C099F50E78B9E4@BobHP>
	<777C665C-E10B-45C4-A7C3-D26C3674D75A@mikesnider.org>
	<89137736EAC44864B3FD7633C8639476@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1346268200.96313.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

Not? so ... that which you define may not exist. The definition may exist as a fuzzy concept, but the thing defined? ...?may be only that. 
?
?I define, therefore I


________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 7:57 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


I understated the problem with definitiveness when I said, incorrectly, that there may be areas of math and science in which there is certainty.? G?del long ago proved that it is impossible to devise a complete and consistent description of all of mathematics which is both complete and consistent. If it can prove all correct theorems, it will necessarily also prove a maximal set of incorrect theorems.

http://www.mikesnider.org/

Would G?del say we can?t be 100% sure that one plus one equals two?? 
I think there are absolute certainties, but only by definition.

I just thought of a few other absolute certainties: mind and matter.? That
my mind exists is absolutely certain.? That it is aware of material reality,
by whatever name, is also absolutely certain.? I define, therefore I
exist and that which I define exists.

--Bob
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



exist and that which I define exists.

Suppose the subject is deluded, schizoid ...
I define a ghost. The definition exist, but what about the thing defined?

?mind and matter --

You may think that your mind exist, but proving it won't be easy. 

I think ... I, robot ...
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 29 15:30:44 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 12:30:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: the Great Agrarian
In-Reply-To: <F47DC7737CE1445E98127F6E8B7C137C@BobHP>
References: <1346266050.73956.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<1346266180.4058.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<F47DC7737CE1445E98127F6E8B7C137C@BobHP>
Message-ID: <1346268644.46876.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

His definition is accurate, and enlightening. 
I suppose you agree with the Supreme Court and think that corporations are persons. 
Which gives them the right to buy politicians and elections.
Which makes our so-called democracy a joke. 
?
?
A pile of money: something only you and your 
family and friends should have, without working
for it.
?
I was not talking about the value of work. Corporations could give a damn about work. Their goal is profit. Simple as that. How they go about getting there, and how they trash the environment is of?little concern to them. 
?
Again, Berry's definition: 
A corporation is, essentially, a pile of money to which a number of persons have sold their moral allegiance. 
?
Bob, this guy has been working the land and writing books of essays for over 3 decades. He does know what he's talking about. 
?


________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fw: the Great Agrarian


I sorta like Berry but his definition is completely
insane?and so does anticipate the Occupied Movement.


--Bob

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 2:49 PM
To: New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: the Great Agrarian


... sure, it's good to see the definition of the thing itself (poetry) being argued and defined, but Wendell Berry, the great agrarian, offers another definition, and one that anticipates the Occupied movement by nearly 3 decades.

Wendell Berry defines a corporation as --

A corporation is, essentially, a pile of money to which a number of persons have sold their moral
allegiance. 
?

The defining word in the above sentence is sold. 
Wendell Berry for President.



________________________________
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 29 15:47:32 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 12:47:32 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: the Great Agrarian
In-Reply-To: <1346268644.46876.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <1346266050.73956.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<1346266180.4058.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
	<F47DC7737CE1445E98127F6E8B7C137C@BobHP>
	<1346268644.46876.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1346269652.61358.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

... more from Berry:
?A corporation is, essentially, a pile of money to which a number of persons have sold their moral allegiance. As such, unlike a person, a corporation does not age. It does not arrive, as most persons finally do, at a realization of the shortness and smallness of human lives; it does not come to see the future as the lifetimes of the children?and grandchildren of anybody in particular. It can experience no personal hope or remorse, no change of heart. It cannot humble itself. It goes about its business as if it were immortal, with the single purpose of becoming a bigger pile of money. The stockholders essentially are usurers, people who "let their money work for them," expecting high pay in return for causing others to work for low pay. The World Trade Organization
enlarges the old idea of the corporation-as-person by giving the glogbal corporate economy the status of a super government with the power to overrule nations. 
?
? I don't mean to say, of course, that all corporate executives and stockholders are bad people. I am only saying that all of them are very seriously implicated in a bad economy. 
?


________________________________
From: stephen russell <poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 3:30 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fw: the Great Agrarian


His definition is accurate, and enlightening. 
I suppose you agree with the Supreme Court and think that corporations are persons. 
Which gives them the right to buy politicians and elections.
Which makes our so-called democracy a joke. 
?
?
A pile of money: something only you and your 
family and friends should have, without working
for it.
?
I was not talking about the value of work. Corporations could give a damn about work. Their goal is profit. Simple as that. How they go about getting there, and how they trash the environment is of?little concern to them. 
?
Again, Berry's definition: 
A corporation is, essentially, a pile of money to which a number of persons have sold their moral allegiance. 
?
Bob, this guy has been working the land and writing books of essays for over 3 decades. He does know what he's talking about. 
?


________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fw: the Great Agrarian


I sorta like Berry but his definition is completely
insane?and so does anticipate the Occupied Movement.


--Bob

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 2:49 PM
To: New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: the Great Agrarian


... sure, it's good to see the definition of the thing itself (poetry) being argued and defined, but Wendell Berry, the great agrarian, offers another definition, and one that anticipates the Occupied movement by nearly 3 decades.

Wendell Berry defines a corporation as --

A corporation is, essentially, a pile of money to which a number of persons have sold their moral
allegiance. 
?

The defining word in the above sentence is sold. 
Wendell Berry for President.



________________________________
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry

_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Aug 29 16:07:43 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 16:07:43 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <1346268200.96313.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.or
	g><8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><8CF52D2A0CA38F8-958-34F59@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><0274CB9FB6B343
	7E98D0FCD694E9799F@BobHP><484B165D-24FF-4D14-A9DD-7AF25299A61E@mikesnider.org><8CF5340C4FE171A-1DD4-35D9E@webmail-m152.sysops.a
	ol.com><503CD93B.6020503@louisiana.edu><C6D99248929B485DB02428581588D61B@BobHP><8CF534AEA45E378-1DD4-367FE@webmail-m152.sysops.
	aol.com><39D3B33CEA924BE6BD2E1E2896FE02E6@BobHP><4AF46F6297E34FC8A6774AD9F712FE33@BobHP><395C05FA-C710-49E0-BB9D-AA6859C80825@m
	ikesnider.org><D649BDEE846A4A86B9C099F50E78B9E4@BobHP><777C665C-E10B-45C4-A7C3-D26C3674D75A@mikesnider.org><89137736EAC44864B3F
	D7633C8639476@BobHP>
	<1346268200.96313.YahooMailNeo@web162503.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <61CD85C44B654F47BB57548D3B73440F@BobHP>



From: stephen russell 
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 3:23 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

Not  so ... that which you define may not exist. The definition may exist as a fuzzy concept, but the thing defined? ... may be only that. 

I define, therefore I
exist and that which I define exists.

Suppose the subject is deluded, schizoid ...
I define a ghost. The definition exist, but what about the thing defined?

mind and matter --

You may think that your mind exist, but proving it won't be easy. 

I think ... I, robot ...

The thing I define exists because I exist and I include the thing defined.  Otherwise, I could not define it.
(Italics an accident, but?gosh?what I?m saying is so important, I think them appropriate.)  Needless
to say (I hope) what I define, and I, may well exist only for me, but what else have I to base a definition on?

A nut?s definition exists for the nut.  

I must say, this has been a splendid class.  Never before have my keepers let me keep answering 
questions and setting pupils straight for so long here at New-Poetry University.  My thanks to all of you.  
Even that perky Italian girl in the back who hasn?t said anything yet.  Or was she the one who piped up
about Heidigger?  My mind is being dragged off somewhere by a crab at the bottom of the sea.  My 
memory can?t keep up with it.  The tripod is wobbling.

--Your Professor




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From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 29 16:19:41 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 13:19:41 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <61CD85C44B654F47BB57548D3B73440F@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.or
	g><8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><8CF52D2A0CA38F8-958-34F59@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><0274CB9FB6B343
	7E98D0FCD694E9799F@BobHP><484B165D-24FF-4D14-A9DD-7AF25299A61E@mikesnider.org><8CF5340C4FE171A-1DD4-35D9E@webmail-m152.sysops.a
	ol.com><503CD93B.6020503@louisiana.edu><C6D99248929B485DB02428581588D61B@BobHP><8CF534AEA45E378-1DD4-367FE@webmail-m152.sysops.
	aol.com><39D3B33CEA924BE6BD2E1E2896FE02E6@BobHP><4AF46F6297E34FC8A6774AD9F712FE33@BobHP><395C05FA-C710-49E0-BB9D-AA6859C80825@m
	ikesnider.org><D649BDEE846A4A86B9C099F50E78B9E4@BobHP><777C665C-E10B-45C4-A7C3-D26C3674D75A@mikesnider.org><89137736EAC44864B3F
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The thing I define exists because I exist and I include the thing defined.? Otherwise, I could not define it.
?
It helps to exist if one is going to define anything, but the fact that one may, by definition,?exist, does not at all mean that the thing being defined exist. Again, I define the term ghost. Do ghost exist? The definition of a ghost does exist. 
Some people believe in the paranormal. 



________________________________
From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 4:07 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry





From: stephen russell 
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 3:23 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
Not? so ... that which you define may not exist. The definition may exist as a fuzzy concept, but the thing defined? ... may be only that. 
?
I define, therefore I
exist and that which I define exists.

Suppose the subject is deluded, schizoid ...
I define a ghost. The definition exist, but what about the thing defined?

mind and matter --

You may think that your mind exist, but proving it won't be easy. 

I think ... I, robot ...
?
The thing I define exists because I exist and I include the thing defined.? Otherwise, I could not define it.
(Italics an accident, but?gosh?what I?m saying is so important, I think them appropriate.)? Needless
to say (I hope) what I define, and I, may well exist only for me, but what else have I to base a definition on?
?
A nut?s definition exists for the nut.? 
?
I must say, this has been a splendid class.? Never before have my keepers let me keep answering 
questions and setting pupils straight for so long here at New-Poetry University.? My thanks to all of you.? 
Even that perky Italian girl in the back who hasn?t said anything yet.? Or was she the one who piped up
about Heidigger?? My mind is being dragged off somewhere by a crab at the bottom of the sea.? My 
memory can?t keep up with it.? The tripod is wobbling.
?
--Your Professor
?
?
?
?
?
_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list
New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Aug 29 16:29:28 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 16:29:28 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <DD25C17D-D34F-4560-BD13-BB95A16256C6@gmail.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com><DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP><1345668596.235.YahooM
	ailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><EA64BCEFCC934795BDD694B6F3657C6B@BobHP><348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.or
	g><8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><8CF52D2A0CA38F8-958-34F59@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com><0274CB9FB6B343
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Wow, we even snared a comment from the Old Mole!

My answer to his questions: I would hope that the definition
be taken for what it says, and not for who agrees or disagrees with it.
I feel my definition is an honest attempt to provide the axiom from 
which my theory of poetics can be rationally and productively based 
on.  It?s mainly for those who want to know what poetry is, which?I
suppose?would mainly be philosophers of aesthetics, but also
theoretical psychologists, particularly neurophysiological theoretical 
psychologists since my theory of aesthetics (which my theory of poetics
branches off of) is based on my neurophysiological theory of cerebral 
pain and pleasure.  It should have a value for poets, too, as an
introduction to ideas that might inspire them to new ways of
thinking about their poems, which in turn may get them trying
effective new techniques.  A simple example would be my
coverage of the expressive uses of punctuation if it caused 
a poet to think critically about his use of punctuation marks for
the first time.

My definition will help me by clarifying my understanding of poetry.
It may benefit me eventually by causing the Brotherhood of Florida
Poetry Critics to give me one of their annual five-dollar grants (and a 
two-paragraph write-up in their annual newsletter) for my contribution
to the science.  It?s not likely, but that could earn me a professorship
at Harvard, whereupon I would become the one to dictate what 
poets get discussed by the critics who matter, what ones are
completely ignored.  Making sure that poets I?m not interested in
get completely ignored by everyone would be my main job.

(Secret: I would ignore my main job, using all my influence to
have Harvard publish a book listing, describing and giving 
examples of the poetry done in it, of every school of poetry
with more than three members in it.)

Aren?t you glad you asked your questions, Tad?

--Bob

From: Tad Richards 
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 2:40 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

I have to agree with Bob. Any definition of art that also tries to be a definition of good art is heading for trouble.

Another question, however, about defining poetry. Why? Why are we defining it? For who? What is that person or group to do with the definition, and how will it benefit him/her/them? Doesn't that make a difference to the definition?

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 28, 2012, at 7:16 AM, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:


  . . . Michael, isn't "rhythmically organized imitation of speech" only an 'attribute' of poetry 
  (and certain kinds of poetry at that)? Couldn't we easily construct a text that was "rhythmically 
  organized imitation of speech" but failed miserably to be a poem. Isn't poemness more than 
  its attributes (or characterizations)?
  .
  Finnegan

  My answer: no, we couldn?t.  If the text is lineated and rhythmically organized, 
  it is (objectively) a poem. What it may not be is an effective poem, which is 
  what you want to (subjectively) define, Finnegan.

  e.g.:  I am in forest.
           What egg?

  This is a lineated text that is neither propaganda ore mere information.
  It is therefore a poem.  That it will strike almost everyone as a bad poem
  is irrelevant.  If it is not a poem, what is it?

  --Bob
  _______________________________________________
  New-Poetry mailing list
  New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
  http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From newpoetry at mikesnider.org  Wed Aug 29 16:31:30 2012
From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 16:31:30 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <295275D59E164326BAF64FA56D65272E@BobHP>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<8CF52D0607C41BD-958-34DFD@webmail-m005.sysops.aol.com> <8CF52D
	ikesnider.org>
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	1588D61B@BobHP>
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Bob, are you deliberately misreading this poem? "True" has more than one meaning, and at least two of them are in play here. One is that the world is most emphatically not what it seems ? its appearance is a lie. It may be a lie we tell ourselves, but we are also part of the world, and that solid-seeming rock is mostly nothing, a tangle of quantum forces, all of its (and the foot's!) atoms mostly empty space. Wilbur is referencing physicists here, not poets, and physicists often speak of matter as "cloudy."  The other meaning involved is that of "true" love ? faithful till death parts the lovers ? and the world isn't true that way either. It doesn't give a damn when we whisper, like a lover, into its ear; when we die, it doesn't give a damn.

www.mikesnider.org

On Aug 29, 2012, at 15:13, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:

>  
>  
> From: Michael Snider
> Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 2:17 PM
> To: NewPoetry List
> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>  
> Remember Richard Wilbur's "Epistemology":
>  
>  
> I.
> Kick at the rock, Sam Johnson, break your bones:
> But cloudy, cloudy is the stuff of stones.
>  
> Wrong.  The correct definition of ?cloudy? is
> something that looks solid but can be penetrated
> by a feather pushed gently against it.  As opposed
> to something that looks solid and is hard to
> penetrate.  Still, Sam?s refutation was silly.
>  
>  
> II.
> We milk the cow of the world, and as we do
> We whisper in her ear, 'You are not true.'
> 
> 
> 
> www.mikesnider.org
> 
> What?s dumb about this is that if the cow is not true, what is?
> People don?t understand that a word (properly used) is intended
> to distinguish what it denotes from everything it does not denote. 
> If nothing is true, then what does word the word, ?true,? denote? 
> If it denotes nothing, what is the use of it?  In actuality, for fools
> it denotes that which seems real but is not from that which
> does not seem real, and isn?t.  I would define it (in brief) as
> that which is real whether it is or not.  To define it at length,
> I would have to define reality, which I think I can but it would
> take too long, and why bother since nullinguism (i.e., Halism)
> is pretty much the order of the day?
>  
> --Bob
>  
> --Bob
> _______________________________________________
> New-Poetry mailing list
> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu
> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry
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From newpoetry at mikesnider.org  Wed Aug 29 16:32:07 2012
From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 16:32:07 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <DD25C17D-D34F-4560-BD13-BB95A16256C6@gmail.com>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
	<DD994BA50B924770B5A6174188267FDD@BobHP>
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Message-ID: <49F02960-4E48-4FA1-8FFE-C5B42E648BA6@mikesnider.org>

This far, I agree, too.

www.mikesnider.org

On Aug 29, 2012, at 14:40, Tad Richards <theoldmole at gmail.com> wrote:

> I have to agree with Bob. Any definition of art that also tries to be a definition of good art is heading for trouble.


From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com  Wed Aug 29 16:37:23 2012
From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 13:37:23 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
In-Reply-To: <503E4B83.8040201@louisiana.edu>
References: <8CF4E7B02478F08-A64-2E708@Webmail-m112.sysops.aol.com>
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	<348936D1-A67A-4573-9D10-48DF041DE976@mikesnider.org>
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	<39D3B33CEA924BE6BD2E1E2896FE02E6@BobHP>
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	4DAB8C4EAC48C3B1076B478BC4581D@BobHP>
	<A1D9D338-F5D1-453A-AB31-049CE7E1CAF9@mikesnider.org> <503E4B
	83.8040201@louisiana.edu>
Message-ID: <1346272643.19646.YahooMailNeo@web162505.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>

I peel and portion
A tangerine and spit the pips and feel
The drunkenness of things being various.
?
wonderful lines from the MacNeice poem.
?
btw, Hume was more radical than Berkeley. The material world was fully in doubt.
Still, Hume went about his life a very worldly man. 
?
Decartes is considered the founder of modern philosophy. & he gave the Brits 2 centuries of homework. Funny how some people will read a few sentences from, say, a Berkeley,??or a Hume, and consider it gibberish. 


________________________________
From: Jerry McGuire <jlm8047 at louisiana.edu>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at charlemagne.cddc.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 1:04 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry


Maybe it's time to agree that definition exists as Bob perceives it. I sense being caught up in a Grand Circularity.

Cheers,

Jerry


On 8/29/2012 11:08 AM, Michael Snider wrote:

Berkeley argued that nothing exists except as perceived, that tables and chairs (for example) were only ideas in the mind of observers, and that we could all agree about the world as well as we do only because a benevolent god perceived all of everything.
>
>
>But leaving Berkeley aside, Bob, definitions are nearly always negotiated in a particular community, they change over time (sometimes very quickly), they don't always refer to real things, and there are undoubtedly many real things for which we have no definitions. Definitions are always provisional and have no necessary relationship to reality.
>
>
>By the way ? when you're adding vectors, one plus one equals two only in the special case where the ratios of their respective x and y displacements both equal one.
>
>
>Here's Louis MacNeice's poem "Snow"
>
>The room was suddenly rich and the great bay-window was
>Spawning snow and pink roses against it
>Soundlessly collateral and incompatible:
>World is suddener than we fancy it.
>
>World is crazier and more of it than we think,
>Incorrigibly plural. I peel and portion
>A tangerine and spit the pips and feel
>The drunkenness of things being various.
>
>And the fire flames with a bubbling sound for world
>Is more spiteful and gay than one supposes -
>On the tongue on the eyes on the ears in the palms of one's hands -
>There is more than glass between the snow and the huge roses. 
>
>
>
>http://www.mikesnider.org/
>
>On Aug 29, 2012, at 9:17, "bob grumman" <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote:
>
>
>Did Berkeley say reality didn?t exist?? What was he talking about?? What was this ?reality? he said didn?t exist?
>>What was he, speaking, in if not reality?
>>
>>--Bob
>>
>>From: jforjames at aol.com 
>>Sent: Tuesday, August 28, 2012 9:51 PM
>>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>>Since we're getting into deep weeds of philosophy here, Bob, I think Bishop Berkeley would disagree with you.
>>
>>Finnegan
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
>>To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>
>>Sent: Tue, Aug 28, 2012 7:58 pm
>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
>>
>>
>>I understated the problem with definitiveness when I said, incorrectly, that there may be areas of math and science in which there is certainty.? G?del long ago proved that it is impossible to devise a complete and consistent description of all of mathematics which is both complete and consistent. If it can prove all correct theorems, it will necessarily also prove a maximal set of incorrect theorems.
>>
>>http://www.mikesnider.org/
>>
>>Would G?del say we can?t be 100% sure that one plus one equals two?? 
>>I think there are absolute certainties, but only by definition.
>>
>>I just thought of a few other absolute certainties: mind and matter.? That
>>my mind exists is absolutely certain.? That it is aware of material reality,
>>by whatever name, is also absolutely certain.? I define, therefore I
>>exist and that which I define exists.
>>
>>--Bob
>>_______________________________________________
New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry 
>>
>>________________________________
>>_______________________________________________
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-- 
Jerry McGuire
Dept. of English
University of Louisiana at Lafayette
Lafayette LA 70506 jlm8047 at louisiana.edu 337-482-5478 
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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Aug 29 16:52:19 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 16:52:19 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: the Great Agrarian
In-Reply-To: <1346268644.46876.YahooMailNeo@web162506.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>
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Stephen, how many corporations has he worked for?  I doubt that
many corporations ONLY goal is profit.  Do you really think most
Apple employees? pride in the toys they?ve made isn?t at least 
as important as their pleasure in making a lot of money?  I
believe JPL is a corporation.  I?m good friends (over the Internet)
with someone in management there and I defy you to show
that the happiness she and the others working for JPL had
when Curiosity successfully landed had anything to do with 
money.  

You forget, too, that even many small businesses are
incorporated.  I don?t know much about incorporation but
suspect government taxation forces it on many 
businesses.  In any case, you?re basically saying that  
a huge number of people think only about money.
While ignoring the unions and various governments,
which have been shown to be absolutely as corrupt as
corporations?but contributing nothing to our
culture.

Corporations, of course, consist of people.  Many of them
care about the environment.  And just about NO ONE
is a perfect environmentalist.  

It?s a complex subject.  That the government should
protect the environment is about the only thing I,
as an anarchist, believe the government probably
has to do besides protect its citizens from domestic
criminals and criminal foreign countries.  But they
and the authoritarian environmental groups (and not
all environmental groups are authoritarian?one not 
is the Nature Conservancy, which I?ve been a member 
of for over thirty years) do more damage than good.

--Bob
 


From: stephen russell 
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 3:30 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fw: the Great Agrarian

His definition is accurate, and enlightening. 
I suppose you agree with the Supreme Court and think that corporations are persons. 
Which gives them the right to buy politicians and elections.
Which makes our so-called democracy a joke. 


A pile of money: something only you and your 
family and friends should have, without working
for it.

I was not talking about the value of work. Corporations could give a damn about work. Their goal is profit. Simple as that. How they go about getting there, and how they trash the environment is of little concern to them. 

Again, Berry's definition: 
A corporation is, essentially, a pile of money to which a number of persons have sold their moral allegiance. 

Bob, this guy has been working the land and writing books of essays for over 3 decades. He does know what he's talking about. 


From: bob grumman <bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net>
To: NewPoetry List <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> 
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fw: the Great Agrarian


I sorta like Berry but his definition is completely
insane?and so does anticipate the Occupied Movement.


--Bob)

From: stephen russell 
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 2:49 PM
To: New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu 
Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: the Great Agrarian



... sure, it's good to see the definition of the thing itself (poetry) being argued and defined, but Wendell Berry, the great agrarian, offers another definition, and one that anticipates the Occupied movement by nearly 3 decades.

Wendell Berry defines a corporation as --

A corporation is, essentially, a pile of money to which a number of persons have sold their moral
allegiance. 


The defining word in the above sentence is sold. 
Wendell Berry for President.



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From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net  Wed Aug 29 17:04:15 2012
From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman)
Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2012 17:04:15 -0400
Subject: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry
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From: Michael Snider 
Sent: Wednesday, August 29, 2012 4:31 PM
To: NewPoetry List 
Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] thought for the day, definition of poetry

Bob, are you deliberately misreading this poem? 

I?m partially reading with regard to the subject we are discussing, which
has nothing to do with love.

"True" has more than one meaning, and at least two of them are in play here. One is that the world is most emphatically not what it seems ? its appearance is a lie.

If it?s a lie, then I?m saying it?s a true lie.


It may be a lie we tell ourselves, but we are also part of the world, and that solid-seeming rock is mostly nothing, 
a tangle of quantum forces, all of its (and the foot's!) atoms mostly empty space. 

I suspect it?s not just empty space, but space whose tangle 
of quantum forces makes solid.  


Wilbur is referencing physicists here, not poets, and physicists often speak of matter as "cloudy."

Metaphorically.  It?s not cloudy by any rational definition of ?cloudy.?

The other meaning involved is that of "true" love ? faithful till death parts the lovers ? and the world isn't true that way either. It doesn't give a damn when we whisper, like a lover, into its ear; when we die, it doesn't give a damn.

www.mikesnider.org

But he?s also speaking of the cow as the world.  I don?t think you?re paying full
attention to what I?m saying, Mike.  I don?t feel you?ve engaged more than
a very few of the points I?ve made.  I would not say you?re deliberately 
ignoring them; I would say you?re overlooking them in your haste to make
your own points.