From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 07:34:06 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 13:34:06 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] OCCUPY WALL STREET - IS IT REALLY HAPPENING? In-Reply-To: References: <1317348691.42084.YahooMailClassic@web161613.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I also lived on very little money. Round the amount of money you declare. Now I have more, cut down into half in taxes, to which expenses have to be added, bills, and I probably end up living with the same amount as before but many more problems. Thus... On Fri, Sep 30, 2011 at 12:42 PM, bob grumman wrote: > > > *From:* Tom?s ? C?rthaigh > *Sent:* Thursday, September 29, 2011 10:11 PM > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] OCCUPY WALL STREET - IS IT REALLY HAPPENING? > > Bob, you earn $7,000 or $70,000 a year? If the former, how do you live? > People earn more than that in Poland. If the latter, happy days!!! :-D > > And yes, the Occupy Wall Street is for all of us!!! > > $7,000?that?s four digits. Down from peak of $10,000 my best year (and > was putting half my pay into a bank account!). A little deceptive now > because it doesn?t count Medicare, which I?m now old enough to get. Nor > does it count my credit cards which give me an extra two thousand or so a > year I?ll probably never be able to pay back. On the other hand, I own my > house outright due to frugality over the years, and never owning a car. No > wife and kids, either. Still, I?m deep in poverty according to the > left-wingers, in spite of the public tennis court I play at for free a > hundred yards or so from my house, when I?m not playing with a team at some > private club. I can?t afford golf, but I don?t like the game. I?d love to > have more money, but I get by. I?m no enemy of Wall Street?it has provided > the wherewithal for our standard of living. So what if like all such > entities, such as the American Poetry Establishment, most of those part of > it are mediocrities and some are crooks. > > --Bob > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Oct 1 09:12:27 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 09:12:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] OCCUPY WALL STREET - IS IT REALLY HAPPENING? In-Reply-To: References: <1317348691.42084.YahooMailClassic@web161613.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <52AE2B1FE6264AB8807841D0B9123DE7@BobHP> From: Anny Ballardini Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2011 7:34 AM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] OCCUPY WALL STREET - IS IT REALLY HAPPENING? I also lived on very little money. Round the amount of money you declare. Now I have more, cut down into half in taxes, to which expenses have to be added, bills, and I probably end up living with the same amount as before but many more problems. Thus... And all this time I?ve been trying to be nice to you on the assumption that you were rich! Phooey. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 10:08:05 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 16:08:05 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] OCCUPY WALL STREET - IS IT REALLY HAPPENING? In-Reply-To: <52AE2B1FE6264AB8807841D0B9123DE7@BobHP> References: <1317348691.42084.YahooMailClassic@web161613.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <52AE2B1FE6264AB8807841D0B9123DE7@BobHP> Message-ID: If that is being nice...! On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 3:12 PM, bob grumman wrote: > > > *From:* Anny Ballardini > *Sent:* Saturday, October 01, 2011 7:34 AM > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] OCCUPY WALL STREET - IS IT REALLY HAPPENING? > > I also lived on very little money. Round the amount of money you declare. > Now I have more, cut down into half in taxes, to which expenses have to be > added, bills, and I probably end up living with the same amount as before > but many more problems. Thus... > > And all this time I?ve been trying to be nice to you on the assumption that > you were rich! Phooey. > > --Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 12:27:29 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 11:27:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Morgenspaziergang Message-ID: Morgenspaziergang Flowers at play, so early in the day. Arrested integrities passing their way. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 13:38:06 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 19:38:06 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Morgenspaziergang In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: nice On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 6:27 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Morgenspaziergang > > Flowers at play, so early in the day. Arrested > integrities passing their way. > > > > > > > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Oct 1 15:15:08 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 15:15:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Morgenspaziergang In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: nice On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 6:27 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: Morgenspaziergang Flowers at play, so early in the day. Arrested integrities passing their way. I like it, too, but would change ?Arrested integrities? to ?Imprisoning integrities,? having a lot less regard for integrities than Hal has. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 15:42:43 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 21:42:43 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Morgenspaziergang In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Strange to notice, but I also had problems with 'arresting" and would have chosen 'halting' On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 9:15 PM, bob grumman wrote: > > nice > > On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 6:27 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > >> *Morgenspaziergang* >> >> Flowers at play, so early in the day. Arrested >> integrities passing their way. >> > > I like it, too, but would change ?Arrested integrities? to ?Imprisoning > integrities,? having a lot less regard for integrities than Hal has. > > --Bob > > > >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 16:28:54 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 13:28:54 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Morgenspaziergang In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: There's always "retarded integrities." - Jim On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 12:42 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Strange to notice, but I also had problems with 'arresting" and would have > chosen 'halting' > > > On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 9:15 PM, bob grumman wrote: > >> >> nice >> >> On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 6:27 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: >> >>> *Morgenspaziergang* >>> >>> Flowers at play, so early in the day. Arrested >>> integrities passing their way. >>> >> >> I like it, too, but would change ?Arrested integrities? to ?Imprisoning >> integrities,? having a lot less regard for integrities than Hal has. >> >> --Bob >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Oct 1 16:34:31 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 16:34:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gently Read Message-ID: <8CE4E90A894632B-2160-276A9@angweb-usm005.sysops.aol.com> I'm sure other got there first, but I just stumbled onto this blog review site... http://gentlyread.wordpress.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From millb at aol.com Sat Oct 1 16:40:59 2011 From: millb at aol.com (Millicent Borges Accardi) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 16:40:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gently Read In-Reply-To: <8CE4E90A894632B-2160-276A9@angweb-usm005.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE4E90A894632B-2160-276A9@angweb-usm005.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CE4E918FAEB4F6-1074-3306C@webmail-d144.sysops.aol.com> They reviewed my chapbook Woman on a Shaky Bridge last year: http://gentlyread.wordpress.com/tag/millicent-borges-accardi/ --mill Help me get to 600 by Halloween. Click here to "like" my FB page. Thanks! -----Original Message----- From: jforjames To: new-poetry Sent: Sat, Oct 1, 2011 1:34 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] Gently Read I'm sure other got there first, but I just stumbled onto this blog review site... http://gentlyread.wordpress.com/ _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Oct 1 16:54:07 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 15:54:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Documentary Lyric? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hear, hear! for Charles Reznikoff. Some of his long poems are about as documentary as it gets, based closely on court testimony, etc. But he definitely had a more lyric side, too. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Sep 30, 2011, at 11:53 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Well, for those who were writing such things, Chas. Reznikoff is a good place to start. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Oct 1 17:13:25 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 17:13:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] An impertinance: cheese Message-ID: <8CE4E9617A4D52C-2160-27C9B@angweb-usm005.sysops.aol.com> Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese. G. K. Chesterton - A poet's hope: to be, like some valley cheese, local, but prized elsewhere. W.H. Auden, "Shorts II" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 17:22:40 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 14:22:40 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gently Read In-Reply-To: <8CE4E918FAEB4F6-1074-3306C@webmail-d144.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE4E90A894632B-2160-276A9@angweb-usm005.sysops.aol.com> <8CE4E918FAEB4F6-1074-3306C@webmail-d144.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 1:40 PM, Millicent Borges Accardi wrote: > They reviewed my chapbook Woman on a Shaky Bridge last year: > > http://gentlyread.wordpress.com/tag/millicent-borges-accardi/ > > > --mill > > Help me get to 600 by Halloween. Click here > to > "like" my FB page. Thanks! > You're now at 530. - Jim -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 17:22:44 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 16:22:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] An impertinance: cheese In-Reply-To: <8CE4E9617A4D52C-2160-27C9B@angweb-usm005.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE4E9617A4D52C-2160-27C9B@angweb-usm005.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: You want to see my Cheeseburger Sonnet . . . again? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 4:13 PM, wrote: > Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese. > **** ** > G. K. Chesterton > **- ** > ** ** > A poet's hope: to be, > like some valley cheese, > local, but prized elsewhere. > ** ** > W.H. Auden, "Shorts II" > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 17:23:36 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 16:23:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gently Read In-Reply-To: References: <8CE4E90A894632B-2160-276A9@angweb-usm005.sysops.aol.com> <8CE4E918FAEB4F6-1074-3306C@webmail-d144.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Jim, you're just enabling Mill's affliction. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 4:22 PM, James Cervantes wrote: > > > On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 1:40 PM, Millicent Borges Accardi wrote: > >> They reviewed my chapbook Woman on a Shaky Bridge last year: >> >> http://gentlyread.wordpress.com/tag/millicent-borges-accardi/ >> >> >> --mill >> >> Help me get to 600 by Halloween. Click here >> to >> "like" my FB page. Thanks! >> > > You're now at 530. > > - Jim > > -- > > Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ > > The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > > https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home > > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning > > http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Oct 1 17:29:10 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 17:29:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] An impertinance: cheese In-Reply-To: References: <8CE4E9617A4D52C-2160-27C9B@angweb-usm005.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CE4E984A803A08-2160-27E31@angweb-usm005.sysops.aol.com> Couldn't hurt, Hal, except for the cholesterol. Serve it. -----Original Message----- From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sat, Oct 1, 2011 5:22 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An impertinance: cheese You want to see my Cheeseburger Sonnet . . . again? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 4:13 PM, wrote: Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese. G. K. Chesterton - A poet's hope: to be, like some valley cheese, local, but prized elsewhere. W.H. Auden, "Shorts II" _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 17:30:18 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 14:30:18 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] An impertinance: cheese In-Reply-To: <8CE4E9617A4D52C-2160-27C9B@angweb-usm005.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE4E9617A4D52C-2160-27C9B@angweb-usm005.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I have one, but it's full of holes. (How can something be FULL of holes?) - Jim On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 2:13 PM, wrote: > Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese. > **** ** > G. K. Chesterton > **- ** > ** ** > A poet's hope: to be, > like some valley cheese, > local, but prized elsewhere. > ** ** > W.H. Auden, "Shorts II" > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Oct 1 17:34:16 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 17:34:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] An impertinance: cheese In-Reply-To: References: <8CE4E9617A4D52C-2160-27C9B@angweb-usm005.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CE4E990121FE93-2160-27E90@angweb-usm005.sysops.aol.com> I will retire to some negative space to contemplate that. -----Original Message----- From: James Cervantes To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sat, Oct 1, 2011 5:30 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An impertinance: cheese I have one, but it's full of holes. (How can something be FULL of holes?) - Jim On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 2:13 PM, wrote: Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese. G. K. Chesterton - A poet's hope: to be, like some valley cheese, local, but prized elsewhere. W.H. Auden, "Shorts II" _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 17:34:34 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 16:34:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] An impertinance: cheese In-Reply-To: <8CE4E984A803A08-2160-27E31@angweb-usm005.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE4E9617A4D52C-2160-27C9B@angweb-usm005.sysops.aol.com> <8CE4E984A803A08-2160-27E31@angweb-usm005.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Here tis, Finnegan. Sorry, we're fresh out of bacon. Cheeseburger Sonnet Subtle gradations in flavoring as one moves from layer to layer. White bread sprinkled with sesame seeds first, coated on the underside with (your choice) catsup, mayo, or mustard. I'd opt for mustard nowadays, all other things being equal. And then some relish or (my call) sweet pickle slices and a square of white cheddar. In the center, a patty of hamburger meat--on the lean side, if you please, and, let's say, medium rare--pinkish. The bottom layer is, as always, disappointing--just the other half of the bun that the top layer of the burger was the other half of. *Sans* sesame seeds and tasty slatherings of mustard, ketchup, whatever. And yet it's the base upon which all the rest is built. Without it, a burger's just another slab of meat with bread on top. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 4:29 PM, wrote: > Couldn't hurt, Hal, except for the cholesterol. Serve it. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Halvard Johnson > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Sat, Oct 1, 2011 5:22 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An impertinance: cheese > > You want to see my Cheeseburger Sonnet . . . again? > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 4:13 PM, wrote: > >> Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese. >> **** ** >> G. K. Chesterton >> **- ** >> ** ** >> A poet's hope: to be, >> like some valley cheese, >> local, but prized elsewhere. >> ** ** >> W.H. Auden, "Shorts II" >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 17:31:32 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 14:31:32 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gently Read In-Reply-To: References: <8CE4E90A894632B-2160-276A9@angweb-usm005.sysops.aol.com> <8CE4E918FAEB4F6-1074-3306C@webmail-d144.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: That's o.k.. I'm a Content Provider and an Enabler. - Gently Used On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 2:23 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Jim, you're just enabling Mill's affliction. > > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 4:22 PM, James Cervantes > wrote: > >> >> >> On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 1:40 PM, Millicent Borges Accardi wrote: >> >>> They reviewed my chapbook Woman on a Shaky Bridge last year: >>> >>> http://gentlyread.wordpress.com/tag/millicent-borges-accardi/ >>> >>> >>> --mill >>> >>> Help me get to 600 by Halloween. Click here >>> to >>> "like" my FB page. Thanks! >>> >> >> You're now at 530. >> >> - Jim >> >> -- >> >> Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ >> >> The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org >> >> https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home >> >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning >> >> http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf >> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Oct 1 17:41:32 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 17:41:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] An impertinance: cheese In-Reply-To: References: <8CE4E9617A4D52C-2160-27C9B@angweb-usm005.sysops.aol.com><8CE4E984A803A08-2160-27E31@angweb-usm005.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CE4E9A04E7B356-2160-27F16@angweb-usm005.sysops.aol.com> All good poems are stacked sandwiches, layered language slathered with savory words, you just want to lift to your mouth and bite into. -----Original Message----- From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sat, Oct 1, 2011 5:34 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An impertinance: cheese Here tis, Finnegan. Sorry, we're fresh out of bacon. Cheeseburger Sonnet Subtle gradations in flavoring as one moves from layer to layer. White bread sprinkled with sesame seeds first, coated on the underside with (your choice) catsup, mayo, or mustard. I'd opt for mustard nowadays, all other things being equal. And then some relish or (my call) sweet pickle slices and a square of white cheddar. In the center, a patty of hamburger meat--on the lean side, if you please, and, let's say, medium rare--pinkish. The bottom layer is, as always, disappointing--just the other half of the bun that the top layer of the burger was the other half of. Sans sesame seeds and tasty slatherings of mustard, ketchup, whatever. And yet it's the base upon which all the rest is built. Without it, a burger's just another slab of meat with bread on top. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 4:29 PM, wrote: Couldn't hurt, Hal, except for the cholesterol. Serve it. -----Original Message----- From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sat, Oct 1, 2011 5:22 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An impertinance: cheese You want to see my Cheeseburger Sonnet . . . again? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 4:13 PM, wrote: Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese. G. K. Chesterton - A poet's hope: to be, like some valley cheese, local, but prized elsewhere. W.H. Auden, "Shorts II" _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From millb at aol.com Sat Oct 1 17:58:40 2011 From: millb at aol.com (Millicent Borges Accardi) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 17:58:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gently Read In-Reply-To: References: <8CE4E90A894632B-2160-276A9@angweb-usm005.sysops.aol.com><8CE4E918FAEB4F6-1074-3306C@webmail-d144.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CE4E9C6A13ABAA-1074-33E6D@webmail-d144.sysops.aol.com> Thanks! (for encouraging my affliction) -----Original Message----- From: James Cervantes To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sat, Oct 1, 2011 2:22 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gently Read On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 1:40 PM, Millicent Borges Accardi wrote: They reviewed my chapbook Woman on a Shaky Bridge last year: http://gentlyread.wordpress.com/tag/millicent-borges-accardi/ --mill Help me get to 600 by Halloween. Click here to "like" my FB page. Thanks! You're now at 530. - Jim -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sat Oct 1 18:11:14 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 18:11:14 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] An impertinance: cheese Message-ID: <5585326.1317507075100.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 1 18:37:08 2011 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 15:37:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] An impertinance: cheese Message-ID: <1317508628.30987.YahooMailMobile@web160102.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Actually, the 17th century poet saint amant wrote a long poem about camembert. Amicalement, Alex -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 18:42:56 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 17:42:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] An impertinance: cheese In-Reply-To: <5585326.1317507075100.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <5585326.1317507075100.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: I go for mustard nowadays. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 5:11 PM, wrote: > Oh jeez--I was going to broil some fish for dinner, but now I have a major > hankering for a cheeseburger (with bacon and I'm of the ketchup persuasion) > at my local bar. Curse you, Hal, curse you. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Halvard Johnson ** > Sent: Oct 1, 2011 5:34 PM > To: NewPoetry List ** > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An impertinance: cheese > > Here tis, Finnegan. Sorry, we're fresh out of bacon. > > Cheeseburger Sonnet > > > > Subtle gradations in flavoring as one moves from layer > > to layer. White bread sprinkled with sesame seeds > > first, coated on the underside with (your choice) catsup, > > mayo, or mustard. I'd opt for mustard nowadays, all > > other things being equal. And then some relish or (my > > call) sweet pickle slices and a square of white cheddar. > > > > In the center, a patty of hamburger meat--on the lean > > side, if you please, and, let's say, medium rare--pinkish. > > > > The bottom layer is, as always, disappointing--just > > the other half of the bun that the top layer of the burger > > was the other half of. *Sans* sesame seeds and tasty > > slatherings of mustard, ketchup, whatever. And yet > > it's the base upon which all the rest is built. Without it, > > a burger's just another slab of meat with bread on top. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 4:29 PM, wrote: > >> Couldn't hurt, Hal, except for the cholesterol. Serve it. >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Halvard Johnson >> To: NewPoetry List >> Sent: Sat, Oct 1, 2011 5:22 pm >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An impertinance: cheese >> >> You want to see my Cheeseburger Sonnet . . . again? >> >> >> Serving the tri-state area. >> >> Hal >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> >> halvard at gmail.com >> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >> http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >> >> Remains To Be Seen >> *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) >> ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) >> , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems >> *, *Mainly Black >> , *Obras P?blicas >> ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets >> ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones >> ; **Tango Bouquet >> ; **Theory of Harmony >> ; **Rapsodie espagnole >> ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway >> ; **The Sonnet Project >> ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter >> Journey ; **Eclipse >> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan >> ;* >> *Transparencies & Projections >> * >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 4:13 PM, wrote: >> >>> Poets have been mysteriously silent on the subject of cheese. >>> **** ** >>> G. K. Chesterton >>> **- ** >>> ** ** >>> A poet's hope: to be, >>> like some valley cheese, >>> local, but prized elsewhere. >>> ** ** >>> W.H. Auden, "Shorts II" >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > **** > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Oct 1 18:44:37 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 18:44:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] An impertinance: cheese Message-ID: <3230e.2210bfb6.3bb8f1d5@cs.com> Are there no cheese poems by Bob Grumman? He has been mysteriously silent on this thread. But cheese, perhaps, is a subject best left to the Wilbershians. http://rinabeana.com/poemoftheday/index.php/2006/06/30/o-cheese-by-donald-ha ll/ There is also Hall's great account of having lunch with Eliot at the latter's club--the famous "mystery cheese" story. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 18:49:19 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 17:49:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] An impertinance: cheese In-Reply-To: <3230e.2210bfb6.3bb8f1d5@cs.com> References: <3230e.2210bfb6.3bb8f1d5@cs.com> Message-ID: If there are, there are bound to be holes in them. Swiss? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 5:44 PM, wrote: > Are there no cheese poems by Bob Grumman? He has been mysteriously silent > on this thread. But cheese, perhaps, is a subject best left to the > Wilbershians. > > > http://rinabeana.com/poemoftheday/index.php/2006/06/30/o-cheese-by-donald-hall/ > > There is also Hall's great account of having lunch with Eliot at the > latter's club--the famous "mystery cheese" story. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Oct 1 19:07:51 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 19:07:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] An impertinance: cheese Message-ID: <15da7.8084d52.3bb8f746@cs.com> I am dizzy with the fetor of cheeses, I do not reject them, I take them into me for the tilth and tillage of my own. You, cheese, what do you say to me, of Manhatta born and knowledgeable among cheeses? Do you claim to be domestic cheddar, your range including both mild and extra sharp? Do you claim to be from Wisconsin, land of many cheeses both bold and bland? Do you claim to be part of the cheeses of Europe, intolerant and intemperate, blue-veined like their ancient aristocrats? Do you claim your heritage elsewhere but have established a home among us, you immigrant cheeses? >From cow and from goat, from the rich milk of swine and the thin milk of cats, comes the lineage of cheeses; >From the curds and whey, from the smoky chambers and the monkish cells, comes the lineage of cheeses; >From the mouldy store-room and the slab by the cracker-barrel, attended by the clean-haired Iowan girl, the lineage of cheeses comes. I embrace you all, you cheeses of various background; I clutch at your manly and womanly wedges and holes; I select you all. For I am no greater nor less than a cheese; I am a prophet of cheese-making. I salute and respect you all, you cheeses yet unborn! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 19:16:59 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 18:16:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] An impertinance: cheese In-Reply-To: <15da7.8084d52.3bb8f746@cs.com> References: <15da7.8084d52.3bb8f746@cs.com> Message-ID: Now that's what I call a . . . well, I was going to say *homage*, but I think I'll have to say *frommage.* Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 6:07 PM, wrote: > I am dizzy with the fetor of cheeses, I do not reject them, I take them > into me for the tilth and tillage of my own. > You, cheese, what do you say to me, of Manhatta born and knowledgeable > among cheeses? > Do you claim to be domestic cheddar, your range including both mild and > extra sharp? > Do you claim to be from Wisconsin, land of many cheeses both bold and > bland? > Do you claim to be part of the cheeses of Europe, intolerant and > intemperate, blue-veined like their ancient aristocrats? > Do you claim your heritage elsewhere but have established a home among us, > you immigrant cheeses? > From cow and from goat, from the rich milk of swine and the thin milk of > cats, comes the lineage of cheeses; > From the curds and whey, from the smoky chambers and the monkish cells, > comes the lineage of cheeses; > From the mouldy store-room and the slab by the cracker-barrel, attended by > the clean-haired Iowan girl, the lineage of cheeses comes. > I embrace you all, you cheeses of various background; I clutch at your > manly and womanly wedges and holes; I select you all. > For I am no greater nor less than a cheese; I am a prophet of > cheese-making. > I salute and respect you all, you cheeses yet unborn! > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From obodooha at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 19:22:35 2011 From: obodooha at gmail.com (obodooha at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 23:22:35 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] An impertinance: cheese In-Reply-To: <15da7.8084d52.3bb8f746@cs.com> References: <15da7.8084d52.3bb8f746@cs.com> Message-ID: <1055128830-1317511358-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-530534301-@b17.c5.bise7.blackberry> I don't like cheese but the village photographer makes me say "cheese." I am afraid that if I don't cooperate, I won't appear in the photo. Cheese is the magic word in the photopoem! Obododimma. Sent from my BlackBerry? wireless handheld from Glo Mobile. -----Original Message----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sender: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.eduDate: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 19:07:51 To: Reply-To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An impertinance: cheese _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From cervantes.james at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 19:34:58 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 16:34:58 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Floating Bridge Review Message-ID: *Floating Bridge Review Number Four*. 2011 $10.00. ISBN 978-1-930446-26-7 floating bridge review number 4: poking a finger out + pontoon Part 1 poking a finger out?a literary retrospective. Work from four of Washington's finest literary magazines no longer publishing, selected by the editors of the magazines: Ken Crump, Duckabush Journal; Sean Bentley, Fine Madness; Koon Woon, Chrysanthemum; Iris and Tom Gribble, Heliotrope. Part 2 Pontoon?selections from entries to the 2011 Floating Bridge Press chapbook competition, selected by the editors, including poems from the 2011 Floating Bridge Press Chapbook Award winner. http://www.scn.org/floatingbridge/fbr04_main.html -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 19:38:34 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 16:38:34 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] An impertinance: cheese In-Reply-To: <1055128830-1317511358-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-530534301-@b17.c5.bise7.blackberry> References: <15da7.8084d52.3bb8f746@cs.com> <1055128830-1317511358-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-530534301-@b17.c5.bise7.blackberry> Message-ID: *Curdling* A required step in cheesemaking is separating the milk into solid curds and liquid whey . Usually this is done by acidifying (souring ) the milk and adding rennet . The acidification can be accomplished directly by the addition of an acid like vinegar in a few cases (paneer , queso fresco), but usually starter bacteria are employed instead. These starter bacteria convert milk sugars into lactic acid . The same bacteria (and the enzymes they produce) also play a large role in the eventual flavor of aged cheeses. Most cheeses are made with starter bacteria from the *Lactococci *, *Lactobacilli *, or * Streptococci * families. Swiss starter cultures also include*Propionibacter shermani *, which produces carbon dioxide gas bubbles during aging, giving Swiss cheese or Emmental its holes (calledeyes "). Some fresh cheeses are curdled only by acidity, but most cheeses also use rennet. Rennet sets the cheese into a strong and rubberygel compared to the fragile curds produced by acidic coagulation alone. It also allows curdling at a lower acidity?important because flavor-making bacteria are inhibited in high-acidity environments. In general, softer, smaller, fresher cheeses are curdled with a greater proportion of acid to rennet than harder, larger, longer-aged varieties. - from (of course) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheese -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 19:45:06 2011 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 19:45:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Burnt Bridge Message-ID: I've got some poems up at the October issue of Burnt Bridge: http://burntbridge.net/issue/online-edition/13-october-2011/ Best, Jeff Newberry -- Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and lived syncopation. ?Yusef Komunyakaa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 19:50:13 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 18:50:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Floating Bridge Review In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: $10 for *one* copy? They've gotta be kidding. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 6:34 PM, James Cervantes wrote: > *Floating Bridge Review Number Four*. 2011 > $10.00. ISBN 978-1-930446-26-7 > > floating bridge review number 4: poking a finger out + pontoon > > Part 1 poking a finger out?a literary retrospective. Work from four of > Washington's finest literary magazines no longer publishing, selected by the > editors of the magazines: Ken Crump, Duckabush Journal; Sean Bentley, Fine > Madness; Koon Woon, Chrysanthemum; Iris and Tom Gribble, Heliotrope. > > Part 2 Pontoon?selections from entries to the 2011 Floating Bridge Press > chapbook competition, selected by the editors, including poems from the 2011 > Floating Bridge Press Chapbook Award winner. > > http://www.scn.org/floatingbridge/fbr04_main.html > > -- > > Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ > > The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > > https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home > > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning > > http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From oedipa at gmail.com Sat Oct 1 20:26:43 2011 From: oedipa at gmail.com (karen) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 17:26:43 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Floating Bridge Review In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's the recession don't ya know! On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 4:50 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > $10 for *one* copy? They've gotta be kidding. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 6:34 PM, James Cervantes > wrote: > >> *Floating Bridge Review Number Four*. 2011 >> $10.00. ISBN 978-1-930446-26-7 >> >> floating bridge review number 4: poking a finger out + pontoon >> >> Part 1 poking a finger out?a literary retrospective. Work from four of >> Washington's finest literary magazines no longer publishing, selected by the >> editors of the magazines: Ken Crump, Duckabush Journal; Sean Bentley, Fine >> Madness; Koon Woon, Chrysanthemum; Iris and Tom Gribble, Heliotrope. >> >> Part 2 Pontoon?selections from entries to the 2011 Floating Bridge Press >> chapbook competition, selected by the editors, including poems from the 2011 >> Floating Bridge Press Chapbook Award winner. >> >> http://www.scn.org/floatingbridge/fbr04_main.html >> >> -- >> >> Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ >> >> The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org >> >> https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home >> >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning >> >> http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf >> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- k -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Sat Oct 1 21:39:49 2011 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 18:39:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] An impertinence: Soul In-Reply-To: References: <15da7.8084d52.3bb8f746@cs.com> <1055128830-1317511358-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-530534301-@b17.c5.bise7.blackberry> Message-ID: <1317519589.47195.YahooMailNeo@web160114.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Soul-curdling A required step in soul-making is separating the milk into solid?curds?and liquid?whey. Usually this is done by rendering the milk evil (souring) and adding shame. This evil-spawning can be accomplished directly by the addition of an evil such as vinegar in a few cases (paneer,?queso fresco), but usually?starter sin is employed instead. This starter sin converts milk temptations into?lactic evil. The same sin (and the?enzymes it produces) also plays a large role in the eventual flavor of aged souls. Most souls are made with starter sins from the?Lactococci,?Lactobacilli, or?Streptococci?families.?Swiss guilt-cultures also includePropionibacter shermani, which produces carbon dioxide gas bubbles during aging, giving Swiss or?Emmental souls their holes (called"eyes"). Some fresh souls are curdled only by evil, but most souls also use shame. Shame sets the soul into a strong and rubbery gel?compared to the fragile curds produced by the coagulation of evil alone. It also allows curdling at a lower degree of evil?important because flavor-making sin is inhibited in highly evil environments. In general, softer, smaller, fresher souls are curdled with a greater proportion of evil to shame than harder, larger, longer-aged souls. - from (of course)?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheese, modified by Alex -- Sol Literary Magazine:?http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Oct 1 22:37:28 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 22:37:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] An impertinance: cheese Message-ID: I am freighted with the fetor of cheeses, I do not reject them, I take them into me for the tilth and tillage of my own. You, cheese, what do you say to me, of Manhatta born and knowledgeable among cheeses? Do you claim to be domestic cheddar, your range including both mild and extra sharp? Do you claim to be from Wisconsin, land of many cheeses both bold and bland? Do you claim to be part of the cheeses of Europe, intolerant and intemperate, blue-veined like their ancient aristocrats? Do you claim your heritage elsewhere but have established a home among us, you immigrant cheeses? >From cow and from goat, from the rich milk of swine and the thin milk of cats, comes the lineage of cheeses; >From the curds and whey, from the smoky chambers and the monkish cells, comes the lineage of cheeses; >From the mouldy store-room and the slab by the cracker-barrel, attended by the clean-haired Iowan girl, the lineage of cheeses comes. I embrace you all, you cheeses of various background; I clutch at your manly and womanly wedges and holes; I select you all. For I am no greater nor less than a cheese; I am a prophet of cheese-making. I salute and respect you all, you cheeses yet unborn! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope_productions at hotmail.com Sun Oct 2 00:24:55 2011 From: elemenope_productions at hotmail.com (R Dillon) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 04:24:55 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] An impertinance: cheese In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The poet's a real cheeze-whiz. From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 22:37:28 -0400 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An impertinance: cheese I am freighted with the fetor of cheeses, I do not reject them, I take them into me for the tilth and tillage of my own. You, cheese, what do you say to me, of Manhatta born and knowledgeable among cheeses? Do you claim to be domestic cheddar, your range including both mild and extra sharp? Do you claim to be from Wisconsin, land of many cheeses both bold and bland? Do you claim to be part of the cheeses of Europe, intolerant and intemperate, blue-veined like their ancient aristocrats? Do you claim your heritage elsewhere but have established a home among us, you immigrant cheeses? >From cow and from goat, from the rich milk of swine and the thin milk of cats, comes the lineage of cheeses; >From the curds and whey, from the smoky chambers and the monkish cells, comes the lineage of cheeses; >From the mouldy store-room and the slab by the cracker-barrel, attended by the clean-haired Iowan girl, the lineage of cheeses comes. I embrace you all, you cheeses of various background; I clutch at your manly and womanly wedges and holes; I select you all. For I am no greater nor less than a cheese; I am a prophet of cheese-making. I salute and respect you all, you cheeses yet unborn! _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Oct 2 06:27:28 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 12:27:28 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] An impertinance: cheese In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: :-) :-) :-) :-) to all, and yes, with ketchup! On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 6:24 AM, R Dillon wrote: > The poet's a real cheeze-whiz. > > ------------------------------ > From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2011 22:37:28 -0400 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] An impertinance: cheese > > I am freighted with the fetor of cheeses, I do not reject them, I take them > into me for the tilth and tillage of my own. > You, cheese, what do you say to me, of Manhatta born and knowledgeable > among cheeses? > Do you claim to be domestic cheddar, your range including both mild and > extra sharp? > Do you claim to be from Wisconsin, land of many cheeses both bold and > bland? > Do you claim to be part of the cheeses of Europe, intolerant and > intemperate, blue-veined like their ancient aristocrats? > Do you claim your heritage elsewhere but have established a home among us, > you immigrant cheeses? > From cow and from goat, from the rich milk of swine and the thin milk of > cats, comes the lineage of cheeses; > From the curds and whey, from the smoky chambers and the monkish cells, > comes the lineage of cheeses; > From the mouldy store-room and the slab by the cracker-barrel, attended by > the clean-haired Iowan girl, the lineage of cheeses comes. > I embrace you all, you cheeses of various background; I clutch at your > manly and womanly wedges and holes; I select you all. > For I am no greater nor less than a cheese; I am a prophet of > cheese-making. > I salute and respect you all, you cheeses yet unborn! > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Oct 2 06:33:41 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 12:33:41 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] An impertinence: Soul In-Reply-To: <1317519589.47195.YahooMailNeo@web160114.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <15da7.8084d52.3bb8f746@cs.com> <1055128830-1317511358-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-530534301-@b17.c5.bise7.blackberry> <1317519589.47195.YahooMailNeo@web160114.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: :-) On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 3:39 AM, Alexander Dickow wrote: > *Soul-curdling* > A required step in soul-making is separating the milk into solid curds and > liquid whey . Usually this is done by > rendering the milk evil (souring ) > and adding shame. This evil-spawning can be accomplished directly by the > addition of an evil such as vinegar in a few cases (paneer > , queso fresco ), but usually starter > sin is employed instead. > This starter sin converts milk temptationsinto lactic > evil . The same sin (and the > enzymes it produces) also plays a > large role in the eventual flavor of aged souls. Most souls are made with > starter sins from the *Lactococci > *, *Lactobacilli *, or * > Streptococci * families. Swissguilt-cultures also include > *Propionibacter shermani > *, which produces carbon dioxide gas bubbles during aging, giving Swiss > or Emmental souls their holes (called"eyes > "). > Some fresh souls are curdled only by evil, but most souls also use shame. > Shame sets the soul into a strong and rubbery gel compared > to the fragile curds produced by the coagulation of evil alone. It also > allows curdling at a lower degree of evil?important because flavor-making > sin is inhibited in highly evil environments. In general, softer, smaller, > fresher souls are curdled with a greater proportion of evil to shame than > harder, larger, longer-aged souls. > > - from (of course) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheese, modified by Alex > > -- > Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ > The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning > http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Sun Oct 2 06:55:13 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 03:55:13 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] An impertinence: Soul In-Reply-To: <1317519589.47195.YahooMailNeo@web160114.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <15da7.8084d52.3bb8f746@cs.com> <1055128830-1317511358-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-530534301-@b17.c5.bise7.blackberry> <1317519589.47195.YahooMailNeo@web160114.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: *Curdle-aye-ee-ooo!* * * Thank you, Cheese-Master. - Jim On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 6:39 PM, Alexander Dickow wrote: > *Soul-curdling* > A required step in soul-making is separating the milk into solid curds and > liquid whey . Usually this is done by > rendering the milk evil (souring ) > and adding shame. This evil-spawning can be accomplished directly by the > addition of an evil such as vinegar in a few cases (paneer > , queso fresco ), but usually starter > sin is employed instead. > This starter sin converts milk temptationsinto lactic > evil . The same sin (and the > enzymes it produces) also plays a > large role in the eventual flavor of aged souls. Most souls are made with > starter sins from the *Lactococci > *, *Lactobacilli *, or * > Streptococci * families. Swissguilt-cultures also include > *Propionibacter shermani > *, which produces carbon dioxide gas bubbles during aging, giving Swiss > or Emmental souls their holes (called"eyes > "). > Some fresh souls are curdled only by evil, but most souls also use shame. > Shame sets the soul into a strong and rubbery gel compared > to the fragile curds produced by the coagulation of evil alone. It also > allows curdling at a lower degree of evil?important because flavor-making > sin is inhibited in highly evil environments. In general, softer, smaller, > fresher souls are curdled with a greater proportion of evil to shame than > harder, larger, longer-aged souls. > > - from (of course) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheese, modified by Alex > > -- > Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ > The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning > http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Oct 2 07:09:20 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 13:09:20 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Floating Bridge Review In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd bet that Cervantes gets all the money, heeheee On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 2:26 AM, karen wrote: > It's the recession don't ya know! > > > On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 4:50 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > >> $10 for *one* copy? They've gotta be kidding. >> >> >> Serving the tri-state area. >> >> Hal >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> >> halvard at gmail.com >> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >> http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >> >> Remains To Be Seen >> *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) >> ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) >> , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems >> *, *Mainly Black >> , *Obras P?blicas >> ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets >> ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones >> ; **Tango Bouquet >> ; **Theory of Harmony >> ; **Rapsodie espagnole >> ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway >> ; **The Sonnet Project >> ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter >> Journey ; **Eclipse >> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan >> ;* >> *Transparencies & Projections >> * >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 6:34 PM, James Cervantes < >> cervantes.james at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> *Floating Bridge Review Number Four*. 2011 >>> $10.00. ISBN 978-1-930446-26-7 >>> >>> floating bridge review number 4: poking a finger out + pontoon >>> >>> Part 1 poking a finger out?a literary retrospective. Work from four of >>> Washington's finest literary magazines no longer publishing, selected by the >>> editors of the magazines: Ken Crump, Duckabush Journal; Sean Bentley, Fine >>> Madness; Koon Woon, Chrysanthemum; Iris and Tom Gribble, Heliotrope. >>> >>> Part 2 Pontoon?selections from entries to the 2011 Floating Bridge Press >>> chapbook competition, selected by the editors, including poems from the 2011 >>> Floating Bridge Press Chapbook Award winner. >>> >>> http://www.scn.org/floatingbridge/fbr04_main.html >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ >>> >>> The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org >>> >>> https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home >>> >>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning >>> >>> http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf >>> >>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > k > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Sun Oct 2 08:16:45 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 05:16:45 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Floating Bridge Review In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You know, I'd never even noticed what they were asking for the book. I hope, for their sake, that it's a typo! - Jim On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 4:09 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > I'd bet that Cervantes gets all the money, heeheee > > > On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 2:26 AM, karen wrote: > >> It's the recession don't ya know! >> >> >> On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 4:50 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: >> >>> $10 for *one* copy? They've gotta be kidding. >>> >>> >>> Serving the tri-state area. >>> >>> Hal >>> >>> Halvard Johnson >>> ================ >>> >>> halvard at gmail.com >>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >>> >>> http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >>> >>> Remains To Be Seen >>> *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) >>> ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) >>> , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems >>> *, *Mainly Black >>> , *Obras P?blicas >>> ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets >>> ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones >>> ; **Tango Bouquet >>> ; **Theory of Harmony >>> ; **Rapsodie espagnole >>> ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway >>> ; **The Sonnet Project >>> ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter >>> Journey ; **Eclipse >>> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan >>> ;* >>> *Transparencies & Projections >>> * >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 1, 2011 at 6:34 PM, James Cervantes < >>> cervantes.james at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> *Floating Bridge Review Number Four*. 2011 >>>> $10.00. ISBN 978-1-930446-26-7 >>>> >>>> floating bridge review number 4: poking a finger out + pontoon >>>> >>>> Part 1 poking a finger out?a literary retrospective. Work from four of >>>> Washington's finest literary magazines no longer publishing, selected by the >>>> editors of the magazines: Ken Crump, Duckabush Journal; Sean Bentley, Fine >>>> Madness; Koon Woon, Chrysanthemum; Iris and Tom Gribble, Heliotrope. >>>> >>>> Part 2 Pontoon?selections from entries to the 2011 Floating Bridge Press >>>> chapbook competition, selected by the editors, including poems from the 2011 >>>> Floating Bridge Press Chapbook Award winner. >>>> >>>> http://www.scn.org/floatingbridge/fbr04_main.html >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ >>>> >>>> The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org >>>> >>>> https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home >>>> >>>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning >>>> >>>> http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf >>>> >>>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> k >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Oct 2 15:40:27 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 14:40:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Burnt Bridge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good work there. I especially like "The Maker's Rage to Order." ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Oct 1, 2011, at 6:45 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > I've got some poems up at the October issue of Burnt Bridge: http://burntbridge.net/issue/online-edition/13-october-2011/ > > Best, > Jeff Newberry > > -- > Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and lived syncopation. ?Yusef Komunyakaa > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Sun Oct 2 23:16:54 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2011 20:16:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Will Shakespeare, 17th Earl of Oxford - The Thriller! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1317611814.15844.YahooMailNeo@web120526.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> You may have seen the commercials for a new movie coming out this month called Anonymous.? It's about Shakespeare--or, I should say, about the man behind the man.? This one's buys into the Edward de Vere, 17th Earl of Oxford myth. Best of all, it's directed by Roland Emmerich, who's previous big films have shown a real eye for artsy drama: Universal Soldier, Independence Day, Godzilla, 10,000 BC, 2012.? Oh yeah, this is a can't miss. Here's the YouTube link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PaliLAQT8k -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tomasocarthaigh at yahoo.com Mon Oct 3 05:08:02 2011 From: tomasocarthaigh at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Tom=E1s_=D3_C=E1rthaigh?=) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 02:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Cartys Poetry Journal - Autumn 2011 Edition Published Message-ID: <1317632882.58584.YahooMailClassic@web161614.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> http://cartyspoetryjournal.com/Issue_07/CPJ-07.pdf The new edition of Cartys Poetry Journal has just been published! . www.CartysPoetryJournal.com Read - Like - Tweet - Share Features: Women Writers: In response to Amy Kings assertion that women writers find it hard to get published in the media, we done our bit to rectify the percieved wrong. We sent out a special call for women writers, which increased, but so did male writer submissions, leaving us a 45-55% breakdown still in favour of male writers, to spite a campaign of emails, facebook and twitter posting and posts inviting submissions from female writers on this and other listserves. However, the results were excellent, and we are proud to bring you our selection of writers. WritersCafe.org Competition Those who remember the last issue, wil remember the WritersCafe.org competition winners, of whom only half were published. We publish part II in this issue. News: 100,000 Poets for Change, the Irish entry in pictures. The PREDA fundraiser, the Readings at the Pallet, all are in image and word in the News section. The Mens Corner The fellahs had us swamped with submissions, half of which we have held over for the next issue, due in December. Submissions We still want more submissions, from both men and women. See website for past issues to see what we publish. www.CartysPoetryJournal.com "a person with a good book is never alone... a writer until they've written one is never at peace" - www.writingsinrhyme.com??::: Add me on Facebook ::: My YouTube Videos? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 09:16:32 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 15:16:32 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Burnt Bridge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Good Writings, I agree. On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 9:40 PM, David Graham wrote: > Good work there. I especially like "The Maker's Rage to Order." > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Oct 1, 2011, at 6:45 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > > I've got some poems up at the October issue of Burnt Bridge: > http://burntbridge.net/issue/online-edition/13-october-2011/ > > Best, > Jeff Newberry > > -- > Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics > embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and > lived syncopation. ?Yusef Komunyakaa > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Mon Oct 3 14:10:45 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 14:10:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Nobel Prize in Lit, Odds Message-ID: <8CE500EE7D8379D-1F54-589EC@webmail-d134.sysops.aol.com> http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/booksblog/2011/oct/03/nobel-prize-literature -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Oct 3 14:58:57 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 20:58:57 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nobel Prize in Lit, Odds In-Reply-To: <8CE500EE7D8379D-1F54-589EC@webmail-d134.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE500EE7D8379D-1F54-589EC@webmail-d134.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: One of my adult students says: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/harukimurakami and I think they will prefer him, seen the so-called triple disaster: Fukushima, hurricane and earthquake. On Mon, Oct 3, 2011 at 8:10 PM, wrote: > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/booksblog/2011/oct/03/nobel-prize-literature > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope_productions at hotmail.com Tue Oct 4 06:01:21 2011 From: elemenope_productions at hotmail.com (R Dillon) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 10:01:21 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Burnt Bridge In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: I'd like to see what Newberry would do with (or to) SoBe. Next, the Everglades! Billy Collins, writing out of Rollins, gives us a flavor of Florida, but he isn't a Floridian, he doesn't proceed from William's first principle: "No ideas but in things." He doesn't see it from the inside out like Newberry. Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 15:16:32 +0200 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Burnt Bridge Good Writings, I agree. On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 9:40 PM, David Graham wrote: Good work there. I especially like "The Maker's Rage to Order." ========================================David Grahamgrahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library:http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Oct 1, 2011, at 6:45 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: I've got some poems up at the October issue of Burnt Bridge: http://burntbridge.net/issue/online-edition/13-october-2011/ Best, Jeff Newberry -- Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and lived syncopation. ?Yusef Komunyakaa _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris.murray.bahrain at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 08:12:56 2011 From: chris.murray.bahrain at gmail.com (chris murray) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 20:12:56 +0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] R.I.P. Frank Parker (Oct. 28 1949-Sept. 27, 2011) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: So very sorry to hear this. A good person, Frank, with a hard eye on poetry, thank goodness for that. cm On 9/30/11, Anny Ballardini wrote: > For those like me who loved Frank but did not know. As far as I understand, > he suffered from cancer and declined therapy. > Requiem aeternam. > > Anny > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Tue Oct 4 09:13:40 2011 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 09:13:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Burnt Bridge In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, Richard. I appreciate your reading my work, and I appreciate your kind words. I didn't realize that Collins had written about Florida. I'm interested in Florida writers, though I've found very few that write explicitly about Northwest Florida, the rural backwater bayou where I grew up. Best, Jeff Newberry On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 6:01 AM, R Dillon wrote: > I'd like to see what Newberry would do with (or to) SoBe. > > Next, the Everglades! > > Billy Collins, writing out of Rollins, gives us a flavor of Florida, but he > isn't a Floridian, > > he doesn't proceed from William's first principle: "No ideas but in > things." > > He doesn't see it from the inside out like Newberry. > > > > ------------------------------ > Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 15:16:32 +0200 > From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Burnt Bridge > > Good Writings, I agree. > > On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 9:40 PM, David Graham wrote: > > Good work there. I especially like "The Maker's Rage to Order." > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Oct 1, 2011, at 6:45 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > > I've got some poems up at the October issue of Burnt Bridge: > http://burntbridge.net/issue/online-edition/13-october-2011/ > > Best, > Jeff Newberry > > -- > Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics > embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and > lived syncopation. ?Yusef Komunyakaa > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and lived syncopation. ?Yusef Komunyakaa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Oct 4 16:19:44 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 13:19:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Evening Will Come - Race & Poetry Roundtable + Call for Work - "Revolutionesque" Message-ID: <1317759584.83791.YahooMailNeo@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear Friends: ? Somehow it is October. ? The new issue of?Evening Will Come?is up: ? A roundtable on poetry and race, featuring Francisco Arag?n, Jaswinder Bolina, Veronica Golos, Amy King, J. Michael Martinez, Farid Matuk,? Evie Shockley, Juliana Spahr, Orlando White, and Timothy Yu. Here:?http://www.eveningwillcome.com/issue10-raceroundtable-p1.html yrs, jmw ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ OCTOBER 1-31 ESQUEMAG at GMAIL.COM REVOLUTIONIZE ESQUE! the only war is the war?against the imagination?-Diane di Prima ? ESQUE: a journal of poetry and manifesto?(http://www.esquemag.com)?is opening submissions for our third issue:?REVOLUTIONESQUE. From October 1 to October 31, please send your revolutionary poems, manifestos, and multimedia pieces to:esquemag at gmail.com. We won't define what we mean by "revolution," whether it starts in your home, in the financial district, or in the district of your heart: YOU define your revolution and tell US what it is. ? REVOLUTIONESQUE?will also feature a special section of poems & videos by Naropa University students. --? Amy's Alias +?http://amyking.org/? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Tue Oct 4 16:51:47 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 16:51:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets in the Nobel running Message-ID: <8CE50EE90B1B4D6-8D8-E371@webmail-m156.sysops.aol.com> Will a poet be picked this year?... http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/04/us-nobel-literature-idUSTRE7920Y320111004 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope_productions at hotmail.com Tue Oct 4 18:52:36 2011 From: elemenope_productions at hotmail.com (R Dillon) Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 22:52:36 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Burnt Bridge In-Reply-To: References: , , , , Message-ID: Collins is down there. And poems I've read in his book with the airplane on the cover have a Floridian light around them.It's an aura. (Actually, since I'm temporarily down in Palm Beach, he's up there west north west from my current location.) You come out from an entirely different ethos. I really think that WCW's,"Patterson," is the kind of work you, when it's all told,are producing. Get'er done! R From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com Date: Tue, 4 Oct 2011 09:13:40 -0400 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Burnt Bridge Thanks, Richard. I appreciate your reading my work, and I appreciate your kind words. I didn't realize that Collins had written about Florida. I'm interested in Florida writers, though I've found very few that write explicitly about Northwest Florida, the rural backwater bayou where I grew up. Best,Jeff Newberry On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 6:01 AM, R Dillon wrote: I'd like to see what Newberry would do with (or to) SoBe. Next, the Everglades! Billy Collins, writing out of Rollins, gives us a flavor of Florida, but he isn't a Floridian, he doesn't proceed from William's first principle: "No ideas but in things." He doesn't see it from the inside out like Newberry. Date: Mon, 3 Oct 2011 15:16:32 +0200 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Burnt Bridge Good Writings, I agree. On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 9:40 PM, David Graham wrote: Good work there. I especially like "The Maker's Rage to Order." ========================================David Grahamgrahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library:http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Oct 1, 2011, at 6:45 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: I've got some poems up at the October issue of Burnt Bridge: http://burntbridge.net/issue/online-edition/13-october-2011/ Best, Jeff Newberry -- Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and lived syncopation. ?Yusef Komunyakaa _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and lived syncopation. ?Yusef Komunyakaa _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 13:50:32 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 19:50:32 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] photographs: new york city night, two places: one Wall Street In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Charles Martin: *new york city night, two places: one Wall Street* http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3869 == and more http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=178 -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 13:54:30 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 19:54:30 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: From Spain -- FROM THE MODERATOR - DO NOT REPLY In-Reply-To: <1317737292.97043.YahooMailNeo@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <1317735047.87752.YahooMailClassic@web83906.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <1317737292.97043.YahooMailNeo@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sent by Amy King: Suzanne Burns' account has been hacked -- please do NOT reply or send anyone money on her behalf! I am deleting these emails from the archives and suspending her mail privileges until she secures her account again. Thank you, Amy p.s. From Snopes -- http://www.snopes.com/fraud/distress/family.asp ______________ *WOMPO* *Headers* -- OT - Off Topic; CFW - Calls for Work; POL - Political *Archives and subscription settings* -- http://lists.ncc.edu/scripts/wa.exe?A0=WOM-PO -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 14:08:28 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 20:08:28 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] here's the Nobel Message-ID: http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/2011/ -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Oct 6 15:10:08 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 15:10:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] here's the Nobel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2A49B4E01C694C73BDD035E706020E8F@BobHP> Aha, so the secret to success in poetry is making condensed images! --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 15:17:59 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 21:17:59 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] here's the Nobel In-Reply-To: <2A49B4E01C694C73BDD035E706020E8F@BobHP> References: <2A49B4E01C694C73BDD035E706020E8F@BobHP> Message-ID: Great that you got it, and that you are sharing it... ! On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 9:10 PM, bob grumman wrote: > Aha, so the secret to success in poetry is making condensed images! > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 15:11:48 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 14:11:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] here's the Nobel In-Reply-To: <2A49B4E01C694C73BDD035E706020E8F@BobHP> References: <2A49B4E01C694C73BDD035E706020E8F@BobHP> Message-ID: We were trying to keep that from you, B-bob. Sorry. Now you know. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 2:10 PM, bob grumman wrote: > Aha, so the secret to success in poetry is making condensed images! > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Thu Oct 6 17:14:08 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 14:14:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] here's the Nobel In-Reply-To: <2A49B4E01C694C73BDD035E706020E8F@BobHP> References: <2A49B4E01C694C73BDD035E706020E8F@BobHP> Message-ID: <1317935648.78108.YahooMailNeo@web120529.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Bob, if you go to the Noble Prize for Lit web site, there's a list of all the laureates.? For the recent winners, those little blurbs (such as Transtr?mer's "condensed, translucent images" you commented on) have been so overblown that they crack me up.? Here are some for various winners.? (See if you can guess who based on the blurb.) "...for his cartography of structures of power and his trenchant images of the individual's resistance, revolt, and defeat". "...author of new departures, poetic adventure and sensual ecstasy, explorer of a humanity beyond and below the reigning civilization". ? "...that epicist of the female experience, who with scepticism, fire and visionary power has subjected a divided civilisation to scrutiny". "...for having united perceptive narrative and incorruptible scrutiny in works that compel us to see the presence of suppressed histories". ? But it seems these incomprehensible burbs are a recent phenomenon.? It wasn't always this way.? Back in '23, they wrote that Yeats was awarded the prize,"for his always inspired poetry, which in a highly artistic form gives expression to the spirit of a whole nation."? That's probably too clearly phrased for today's fancy-pants Nobel writers. ? John >________________________________ >From: bob grumman >To: NewPoetry List >Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2011 3:10 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] here's the Nobel > > >Aha, so the secret to success in poetry is making condensed images!? >? >--Bob >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Thu Oct 6 17:36:41 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 16:36:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] here's the Nobel In-Reply-To: <1317935648.78108.YahooMailNeo@web120529.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <2A49B4E01C694C73BDD035E706020E8F@BobHP> <1317935648.78108.YahooMailNeo@web120529.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Like Woody Allen's Bergman movies, they were better in the original Swedish. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 4:14 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: > > Bob, if you go to the Noble Prize for Lit web site, > there's a list of all the laureates. For the recent winners, those little > blurbs (such as Transtr?mer's "*condensed, translucent images*" you > commented on) have been so overblown that they crack me up. Here are some > for various winners. (See if you can guess who based on the blurb.) > > *"...for his cartography of structures of power and his trenchant images > of the individual's resistance, revolt, and defeat"*. > > *"...author of new departures, poetic adventure and sensual ecstasy, > explorer of a humanity beyond and below the reigning civilization"*. > > *"...that epicist of the female experience, who with scepticism, fire and > visionary power has subjected a divided civilisation to scrutiny"*. > > *"...for having united perceptive narrative and incorruptible scrutiny in > works that compel us to see the presence of suppressed histories"*. > > But it seems these incomprehensible burbs are a recent phenomenon. It > wasn't always this way. Back in '23, they wrote that Yeats was awarded the > prize,*"for his always inspired poetry, which in a highly artistic form > gives expression to the spirit of a whole nation."* That's probably too > clearly phrased for today's fancy-pants Nobel writers. > > John > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* bob grumman > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Sent:* Thursday, October 6, 2011 3:10 PM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] here's the Nobel > > Aha, so the secret to success in poetry is making condensed images! > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Oct 6 18:42:45 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 18:42:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] here's the Nobel In-Reply-To: <1317935648.78108.YahooMailNeo@web120529.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <2A49B4E01C694C73BDD035E706020E8F@BobHP> <1317935648.78108.YahooMailNeo@web120529.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7D8EFB110C444F8B8404BB668BA4B52A@BobHP> From: John Jeffrey Sent: Thursday, October 06, 2011 5:14 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] here's the Nobel Bob, if you go to the Noble Prize for Lit web site, there's a list of all the laureates. For the recent winners, those little blurbs (such as Transtr?mer's "condensed, translucent images" you commented on) have been so overblown that they crack me up. Here are some for various winners. (See if you can guess who based on the blurb.) "...for his cartography of structures of power and his trenchant images of the individual's resistance, revolt, and defeat". "...author of new departures, poetic adventure and sensual ecstasy, explorer of a humanity beyond and below the reigning civilization". "...that epicist of the female experience, who with scepticism, fire and visionary power has subjected a divided civilisation to scrutiny". "...for having united perceptive narrative and incorruptible scrutiny in works that compel us to see the presence of suppressed histories". But it seems these incomprehensible burbs are a recent phenomenon. It wasn't always this way. Back in '23, they wrote that Yeats was awarded the prize,"for his always inspired poetry, which in a highly artistic form gives expression to the spirit of a whole nation." That's probably too clearly phrased for today's fancy-pants Nobel writers. John I?m a sucker for ?cartography,? John, so I love the blurb with that in it. As for the Yeats blurb, well, my problem with it is the same as my real problem with all the blurbs: they treat poetry as a sociopolitical instrument; what it does for ?the spirit of a whole nation? is what counts, not what it does as works of art?not for a whole nation but only for its best few (although I believe in the trickle-down effect that will allow lesser talents to use the innovations of geniuses to make art most of the rest of anation will enjoy?the Bob Dylans, for instance). The over-blown gush the Nobel people use for their blurbs is just their way of saying they haven?t the slightest idea for what poetry is at its best?though a few times I accept that they?ve rewarded it at its best, as with Yeats. Maybe with Transtr?mer, too, who knows. I don?t and won?t have time to, but my intuition is that, at best, he?s another Yeats?which is to say, as Brahms was to Beethoven?when Wagner had become the next Beethoven. Not that I?d shoot someone for preferring Brahms?s music to Wagner?s, but I would shoot someone for claiming Brahms was anywhere near as important a composer as Wagner, and importance ought to be of . . . importance. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tomasocarthaigh at yahoo.com Thu Oct 6 21:19:56 2011 From: tomasocarthaigh at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Tom=E1s_=D3_C=E1rthaigh?=) Date: Thu, 6 Oct 2011 18:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] here's the Nobel In-Reply-To: <1317935648.78108.YahooMailNeo@web120529.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1317950396.21716.YahooMailClassic@web161618.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> They can award themselves the prize next year for their fancy blurbs... "a person with a good book is never alone... a writer until they've written one is never at peace" - www.writingsinrhyme.com??::: Add me on Facebook ::: My YouTube Videos? ? --- On Thu, 6/10/11, John Jeffrey wrote: From: John Jeffrey Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] here's the Nobel To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, 6 October, 2011, 22:14 Bob, if you go to the Noble Prize for Lit web site, there's a list of all the laureates.? For the recent winners, those little blurbs (such as Transtr?mer's "condensed, translucent images" you commented on) have been so overblown that they crack me up.? Here are some for various winners.? (See if you can guess who based on the blurb.) "...for his cartography of structures of power and his trenchant images of the individual's resistance, revolt, and defeat". "...author of new departures, poetic adventure and sensual ecstasy, explorer of a humanity beyond and below the reigning civilization". ? "...that epicist of the female experience, who with scepticism, fire and visionary power has subjected a divided civilisation to scrutiny". "...for having united perceptive narrative and incorruptible scrutiny in works that compel us to see the presence of suppressed histories". ? But it seems these incomprehensible burbs are a recent phenomenon.? It wasn't always this way.? Back in '23, they wrote that Yeats was awarded the prize,"for his always inspired poetry, which in a highly artistic form gives expression to the spirit of a whole nation."? That's probably too clearly phrased for today's fancy-pants Nobel writers. ? John From: bob grumman To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2011 3:10 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] here's the Nobel Aha, so the secret to success in poetry is making condensed images!? ? --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Oct 7 06:01:33 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 12:01:33 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nobel Peace Prize: 3 Women Message-ID: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/08/world/nobel-peace-prize-sirleaf-johnson-gbowee-karman.html?hp -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Oct 7 06:43:27 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 12:43:27 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] With a Happy Birthday to Karl Young Message-ID: *Bringing the Text Back Home:* What Alphabets have Made of Us >From Papyrus Fragments to Electronic Screens By Karl Young Beginning in the mid 1960s, I started trying to expand the poetic possibilities of Greek literary fragments. I often used ideas generated by art forms that ran under such banners as minimalism and multimedia, as well as models from advertising and accidental characteristics of mimeograph production, to draw greater significance from fragments. I was interested in the way the origins of literacy and Western culture related to the present. In 1975, I changed my source to fragments written in Aramaic and left by a colony of Jewish exiles in Egypt during the first Diaspora. Many of the fragments were lists of names based in the Biblical Book of Psalms, implying or registering circumstances of birth and social position, the fathers' pride and the mothers' pain, the fears, hopes, and obligations of individuals in a precariously situated community. The fragments ? the oldest Jewish writing that survives on anything like paper ? included the first mention of a pogrom, and lists used in managing the daily affairs of the community. This seemed an ideal starting point for a brief and gritty sketch of some of the basics of Western history. The result was a book, Cried and Measured, published by David Meltzer's Tree Books in 1977. I moved on to early fragments of Old Latin. In my workings of the earliest texts in the alphabet that we now use, I turned to an exploration of reading practices in relation to poetry in our own time. The Roman alphabet evolved into a writing system that could be read silently. This reduced or destroyed the sound patterns which had distinguished poetry from other forms of language art. In working with Old Latin fragments, I used some of the practices of early writing (inconsistent direction of reading; lack of separation between words) to create rhythms by differing reading speeds, replacing such devices as metrics with pacing that didn't depend on audibility. At a time when literati were talking about "interrogating" the nature of meaning, it was discouraging to me to see how much trouble they had with a work like this which experimented with the more basic questions of the essential mechanics of reading. In this much larger book, frameworks of stoicism, dread, tranquility, and, despair frame comic and quotidian trills. bpNichol published the book that resulted, Should Sun Forever Shine, in 1980. That next step was the translation into contemporary terms by the distant descendents of the authors of the original documents which survived in fragments. For Cried and Measured, that would require a contemporary Jew, who had lost family in the Holocaust, and was, as the Psalms put it, "A stranger in a strange land," living outside Israel and writing in a language other than Hebrew. Marton Koppany, a Hungarian Jew whose very name resembles those of the fragments, offered to do the job. Since Marton is, in my opinion, the best literary minimalist I'm familiar with, I could not have been more fortunate. There were many coincidences in this work: My father, a U.S. Army chaplain, had given primary aid to the survivors of the concentration camp at Dachau; an event which changed his life and set in motion aspects of mine before I was born. My father taught at an Army base in Germany when the Soviets destroyed the Hungarian uprising of 1956. As a child watching these events unfold at close hand, they had a significant impact on my worldview. I had several Italian translators in mind through much of the 90s and early 00s, particularly those belonging to the Inismo group. However, I came into contact with Anny Ballardini, who worked extensively with internet publication. She seemed an ideal translator for more reasons than I could have imagined or hoped for in advance. This completed the basic process of "bringing the text back home" - I had first returned to the origins of western culture in Judaism, from whence the figure Jerome Rothenberg had called "the first universal Jew" had given the Mediterranean world a nexus of ideas around which to build a new religion. A modern Jewish exile had translated it into the language of a hostile nation. The writing system the Romans used for their evangelical book, like it or not, has held the west together ever since. Likewise, a modern Italian woman who had made extensive use of the Roman alphabet in cyberspace, translated my second fragment book into Modern Italian, the language into which Old Latin has evolved. Its alphabet, made transmissible by digital electronics, was the first to make the internet a force in binding the world's individuals together. I used the first Roman efforts at writing to suggest a new poetic process, as well as to transform visual poetry into a more complex and flexible genre. Although drafts have been on-line for comment since New Year's Day, and annexes will be added, my birthday, with Yom Kippur starting on its sunset, seems a good day to make a general announcement of its presence. At a time of geo-political crisis, and in the midst of revolutions in communication, we, the distant heirs of the origins of what's best and worst in western culture, the more immediate heirs of the Holocaust, the gulags, the country that could unleash nuclear weapons on the world, as well as the most rapid expanse in human knowledge and human potential, (and perhaps the last generation to learn to write without the availability of electronic communication) look back at our origins, and forward with confidence in the evolution of writing, and at least some examples of adaptability and survival to make hope seem more than a sentimental joke. _____________________________________________________________________ At this point, the site includes A general, and essential, essay on the project and its participants. Four e-books: The complete English texts of the two books. Complete Hungarian translation of Cried and Measured. Complete Italian translation of Should Sun Forever Shine. Contextualizing essay on the original use of the Roman alphabet. Notes on relation of this project to others related to it. Annexes to come include work already done by other people suggested by Cried and Measured, Should Sun Forever Shine, and work and comment on the whole project. It will also include more source material and reflections on Judaic writing and the Roman alphabet. For the project's table of contents, go to http://www.thing.net/~grist/ld/TextBackHome/Volume5.htm -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Oct 7 10:10:22 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 10:10:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_SOLD_OUT!_Signed_Transtr=C3=B6mer_B?= =?utf-8?q?roadsides_Sold_Out!?= In-Reply-To: <1108006907969.1103707940910.3941.12.11162001@scheduler> References: <1108006907969.1103707940910.3941.12.11162001@scheduler> Message-ID: <8CE5311FC9832F0-1A8-50B65@webmail-d171.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: Clay @ Small Press Distribution To: jforjames Sent: Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:23 pm Subject: SOLD OUT! Signed Transtr?mer Broadsides Sold Out! Having trouble viewing this email? Klicka h?r. We sold out of our Tomas Transtr?mer signed broadsides immediately. Sorry! However we do still have a number of unsigned broadsides available. I repeat: these are neither signed nor numbered. They are $20 each and are limited to one per person. If you are interested in purchasing one of these unnumbered and unsigned broadsides, please click here. These unsigned broadsides may only be purchased via our web site, not by replying to this email. CLICK HERE TO BUY AN UNSIGNED BROADSIDE. POETRY BEST-SELLERS |FICTION BEST-SELLERS |NONFICTION BEST-SELLERS SPD's STAFF PICKS SALE! 40% OFF SELECT TITLES THRU OCT. 15 Books we love or books we want you to have at 40% off, who can say? Picks by Laura, Brent, Andrew, John, Zack, Julia, Meg, Johnny, Monica, and, let's be honest, me. Forward email This email was sent to jforjames at aol.com by clay at spdbooks.org | Update Profile/Email Address | Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribe? | Privacy Policy. Small Press Distribution | 1341 Seventh Street | Berkeley | CA | 94710 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Oct 7 10:23:58 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 16:23:58 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?Fwd=3A_SOLD_OUT!_Signed_Transtr=F6mer?= =?iso-8859-1?q?_Broadsides_Sold_Out!?= In-Reply-To: <8CE5311FC9832F0-1A8-50B65@webmail-d171.sysops.aol.com> References: <1108006907969.1103707940910.3941.12.11162001@scheduler> <8CE5311FC9832F0-1A8-50B65@webmail-d171.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I would make my Editors just so Happy! Should think of a way to get there, then. Although, I am sure I read a booklet (small book) with some of his poems, and I particularly enjoyed it. He has an intense visual dimension and succeeds in re-projecting it. On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 4:10 PM, wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: Clay @ Small Press Distribution > To: jforjames > Sent: Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:23 pm > Subject: SOLD OUT! Signed Transtr?mer Broadsides Sold Out! > > Having trouble viewing this email? Klicka h?r. > We > sold out of our Tomas Transtr?mersigned broadsides immediately. Sorry! > > However we do still have a number of *unsigned* broadsides available. I > repeat: these are neither signed nor numbered. They are $20 each and are > limited to one per person. > > If you are interested in purchasing one of these *unnumbered and unsigned*broadsides, please click > here > . > > These unsigned broadsides may only be purchased via our web site, not by > replying to this email. > > > > CLICK HERE TO BUY AN UNSIGNED BROADSIDE. > > > ------------------------------ > POETRY BEST-SELLERS|FICTION > BEST-SELLERS|NONFICTION > BEST-SELLERS > ------------------------------ > > SPD's STAFF PICKS SALE! > > 40% OFF SELECT TITLES THRU OCT. 15 > Books we love or books we want you to have at 40% off, who can say? > Picks by Laura, > Brent, > Andrew, > John, > Zack, > Julia, > Meg, > Johnny, > Monica, > and, let's be honest, me > . > *Forward email > * > > > > This email was sent to jforjames at aol.com by clay at spdbooks.org | > Update Profile/Email Address > | Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribe? > | Privacy Policy > . > > Small Press Distribution | 1341 Seventh Street | Berkeley | CA | 94710 > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Oct 7 10:57:13 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 16:57:13 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Linh Dinh with State of the Union Message-ID: http://linhdinhphotos.blogspot.com/ -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Fri Oct 7 11:43:12 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 08:43:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_SOLD_OUT!_Signed_Transtr=C3=B6mer_B?= =?utf-8?q?roadsides_Sold_Out!?= In-Reply-To: <8CE5311FC9832F0-1A8-50B65@webmail-d171.sysops.aol.com> References: <1108006907969.1103707940910.3941.12.11162001@scheduler> <8CE5311FC9832F0-1A8-50B65@webmail-d171.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1318002192.30765.YahooMailNeo@web120525.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Here's another version of the same poem, translated by Robert Bly:? http://thepoetryplace.wordpress.com/2009/10/29/vermeer-by-tomas-transtromer/ I find it interesting that the Samuel Charters translation begins, "No sheltered world...on the other side of the wall the noise begins / the tavern begins / with laughter and bickering" and the Bly translation begins, "It?s not a sheltered world. The noise begins over there, on the other side of the wall / where the alehouse is / with its laughter and quarrels." I understand differing work choices or sentence construction.? It's the phrase " The noise begins over there" in Bly's version as compared to the ellipsis in Charters's.? I didn't know you could simply decide, Nah, I don't like that. It's filler. I'm just gonna leave it out.? Or, if the opposite is true, that you can simply add a phrase because you thought, Hmmm. This section needs "something." What say you, you translaters among us? And does anyone have access to and can read the original Swedish?? What's there? John >________________________________ >From: "jforjames at aol.com" >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Sent: Friday, October 7, 2011 10:10 AM >Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SOLD OUT! Signed Transtr?mer Broadsides Sold Out! > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Clay @ Small Press Distribution >To: jforjames >Sent: Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:23 pm >Subject: SOLD OUT! Signed Transtr?mer Broadsides Sold Out! > > >Having trouble viewing this email? Klicka h?r. We sold out of our Tomas Transtr?mer signed broadsides immediately. Sorry! > >However we do still have a number of unsigned broadsides available. I repeat: these are neither signed nor numbered. They are $20 each and are limited to one per person. > >If you are interested in purchasing one of these unnumbered and unsigned broadsides, please click here. > >These unsigned broadsides may only be purchased via our web site, not by replying to this email. > > > >CLICK HERE TO BUY AN UNSIGNED BROADSIDE. > > >>________________________________ > POETRY BEST-SELLERS|FICTION BEST-SELLERS|NONFICTION BEST-SELLERS >________________________________ > > >SPD's STAFF PICKS SALE! > >40% OFF SELECT TITLES THRU OCT. 15 >Books we love or books we want you to have at 40% off, who can say? > >Picks by Laura, Brent, Andrew, John, Zack, Julia, Meg, Johnny, Monica, and, let's be honest, me. > >Forward email > > >This email was sent to jforjames at aol.com by clay at spdbooks.org | ? >Update Profile/Email Address | Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribe? | Privacy Policy. > >Small Press Distribution | 1341 Seventh Street | Berkeley | CA | 94710 > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Oct 7 12:53:15 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 12:53:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Fwd=3A_SOLD_OUT!_Signed_Transtr=C3=B6mer_B?= =?utf-8?q?roadsides_Sold_Out!?= In-Reply-To: <1318002192.30765.YahooMailNeo@web120525.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1108006907969.1103707940910.3941.12.11162001@scheduler><8CE5311FC9832F0-1A8-50B65@webmail-d171.sysops.aol.com> <1318002192.30765.YahooMailNeo@web120525.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CE5328BD4410C3-38D8-54EE1@webmail-d142.sysops.aol.com> On a different note: Some poetry organizations don't seem to understand supply & demand. Apparently SPD very quickly sold out of their stock of signed broadsides at $25 per...now it offering unsigned ones at $20 per. When the TT's Nobel was annouced they should have increased prices accross the board. Or maybe tried putting the signed ones on Ebay. Just because you're a non profit org doesn't mean you should leave money on the table. I'm sure booksellers and collectors, who probably were among the first to snap up their stock, will be putting higher prices on these items when they're resold. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: John Jeffrey To: NewPoetry List Sent: Fri, Oct 7, 2011 11:45 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SOLD OUT! Signed Transtr?mer Broadsides Sold Out! Here's another version of the same poem, translated by Robert Bly: http://thepoetryplace.wordpress.com/2009/10/29/vermeer-by-tomas-transtromer/ I find it interesting that the Samuel Charters translation begins, "No sheltered world...on the other side of the wall the noise begins / the tavern begins / with laughter and bickering" and the Bly translation begins, "It?s not a sheltered world. The noise begins over there, on the other side of the wall / where the alehouse is / with its laughter and quarrels." I understand differing work choices or sentence construction. It's the phrase " The noise begins over there" in Bly's version as compared to the ellipsis in Charters's. I didn't know you could simply decide, Nah, I don't like that. It's filler. I'm just gonna leave it out. Or, if the opposite is true, that you can simply add a phrase because you thought, Hmmm. This section needs "something." What say you, you translaters among us? And does anyone have access to and can read the original Swedish? What's there? John From: "jforjames at aol.com" To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, October 7, 2011 10:10 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SOLD OUT! Signed Transtr?mer Broadsides Sold Out! -----Original Message----- From: Clay @ Small Press Distribution To: jforjames Sent: Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:23 pm Subject: SOLD OUT! Signed Transtr?mer Broadsides Sold Out! Having trouble viewing this email? Klicka h?r. We sold out of our Tomas Transtr?mer signed broadsides immediately. Sorry! However we do still have a number of unsigned broadsides available. I repeat: these are neither signed nor numbered. They are $20 each and are limited to one per person. If you are interested in purchasing one of these unnumbered and unsigned broadsides, please click here. These unsigned broadsides may only be purchased via our web site, not by replying to this email. CLICK HERE TO BUY AN UNSIGNED BROADSIDE. POETRY BEST-SELLERS |FICTION BEST-SELLERS |NONFICTION BEST-SELLERS SPD's STAFF PICKS SALE! 40% OFF SELECT TITLES THRU OCT. 15 Books we love or books we want you to have at 40% off, who can say? Picks by Laura, Brent, Andrew, John, Zack, Julia, Meg, Johnny, Monica, and, let's be honest, me. Forward email This email was sent to jforjames at aol.com by clay at spdbooks.org | Update Profile/Email Address | Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribe? | Privacy Policy. Small Press Distribution | 1341 Seventh Street | Berkeley | CA | 94710 _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Fri Oct 7 16:35:55 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 13:35:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] here's the Nobel In-Reply-To: <2A49B4E01C694C73BDD035E706020E8F@BobHP> Message-ID: <1318019755.34146.YahooMailClassic@web161914.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> THE SECRET TO FINDING A PERFECT HAIRCUT ? ? ? ????????? First, measure your face horizontally: ? ???????????????????????? ?? Round face: Length and width are about equal. ???????????????????????????????????????????????* ? ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Take a newspaper? ? ?????????????????????? Take a pair of? scissor? ? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??? * ??? ? Grab a tape measure, a piece of paper and pen. ? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? Choose an? article as long as you?re planning-- ? starting at the top of your cheekbones. Write that number down. Then, run the tape across your face at jaw-level. Write that number down. ? ??????????????????????????????????? Cut out the article ? ??????????????????????????????????????? * ? ????????????????? Oval face: Your face length is about 1? times longer than the width. ? Square face: The widths of your forehead and jawline are about equal. ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Then cut out each of the words that make up this article and put them in a bag??? ? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????&nbs p;????????????????????? Shake it gently ?? ?????????????????????????Then take out the scraps one after the other in the order in which they left the bag??? ? ???????????????????????????? Copy?Conscientious????????? ? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????*?????????? ? ?The results? Heart-shaped face: The measurements across your cheekbones and/or forehead will be the widest and your jaw will measure small and narrow. ? ??????????????????????????????????????????????????? Tne poem will be like you ? ?????????????????????????? The haircut will be immortal ? ? ? Tristan Tzara, 1920 ???????????????& Stephen Russell, 2007 ? ???? --- On Thu, 10/6/11, bob grumman wrote: From: bob grumman Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] here's the Nobel To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, October 6, 2011, 3:10 PM Aha, so the secret to success in poetry is making condensed images!? ? --Bob -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Fri Oct 7 16:44:25 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 13:44:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] here's the Nobel In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1318020265.83375.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> are you saying there are too many pregnant pauses?? ... or? that Allen is an epicist of the female experience, who with scepticism, fire and visionary power has subjected a divided civilisation to scrutiny?"? Is that what you're saying.? What are you really saying? Are you making fun of the serious Woody? --- On Thu, 10/6/11, Halvard Johnson wrote: "...that epicist of the female experience, who with scepticism, fire and visionary power has subjected a divided civilisation to scrutiny"."...that epicist of the female experience, who with scepticism, fire and visionary power has subjected a divided civilisation to scrutiny". "...that epicist of the female experience, who with scepticism, fire and visionary power has subjected a divided civilisation to scrutiny". From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] here's the Nobel To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, October 6, 2011, 5:36 PM Like Woody Allen's Bergman movies, they were better in the original Swedish. ?? ? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.orghttp://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 4:14 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: Bob, if you go to the Noble Prize for Lit web site, there's a list of all the laureates.? For the recent winners, those little blurbs (such as Transtr?mer's "condensed, translucent images" you commented on) have been so overblown that they crack me up.? Here are some for various winners.? (See if you can guess who based on the blurb.) "...for his cartography of structures of power and his trenchant images of the individual's resistance, revolt, and defeat". "...author of new departures, poetic adventure and sensual ecstasy, explorer of a humanity beyond and below the reigning civilization". ? "...that epicist of the female experience, who with scepticism, fire and visionary power has subjected a divided civilisation to scrutiny". "...for having united perceptive narrative and incorruptible scrutiny in works that compel us to see the presence of suppressed histories". ? But it seems these incomprehensible burbs are a recent phenomenon.? It wasn't always this way.? Back in '23, they wrote that Yeats was awarded the prize,"for his always inspired poetry, which in a highly artistic form gives expression to the spirit of a whole nation."? That's probably too clearly phrased for today's fancy-pants Nobel writers. ? John From: bob grumman To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2011 3:10 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] here's the Nobel Aha, so the secret to success in poetry is making condensed images!? ? --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Fri Oct 7 16:58:36 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 13:58:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Nobel Peace Prize: 3 Women In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1318021116.52186.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> If they wanted 4, they could have awarded the thing to the woman who started PETA. Her name, I think, Ingrid ... and something else I can't fully remember. --- On Fri, 10/7/11, Anny Ballardini wrote: From: Anny Ballardini Subject: [New-Poetry] Nobel Peace Prize: 3 Women To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" Date: Friday, October 7, 2011, 6:01 AM http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/08/world/nobel-peace-prize-sirleaf-johnson-gbowee-karman.html?hp -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Fri Oct 7 17:22:31 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 7 Oct 2011 16:22:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nobel Peace Prize: 3 Women In-Reply-To: <1318021116.52186.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1318021116.52186.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: If they wanted five, they could have included my wife Lynda who keeps the peace around here. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 3:58 PM, stephen russell < poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: > If they wanted 4, they could have awarded the thing to the woman who > started PETA. Her name, I think, Ingrid ... and something else I can't fully > remember. > > --- On *Fri, 10/7/11, Anny Ballardini * wrote: > > > From: Anny Ballardini > Subject: [New-Poetry] Nobel Peace Prize: 3 Women > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Date: Friday, October 7, 2011, 6:01 AM > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/08/world/nobel-peace-prize-sirleaf-johnson-gbowee-karman.html?hp > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Oct 8 02:21:37 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 08:21:37 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nobel Peace Prize: 3 Women In-Reply-To: References: <1318021116.52186.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: And is a beautiful woman, I am all for 5! On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 11:22 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > If they wanted five, they could have included my wife Lynda who keeps the > peace around here. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 3:58 PM, stephen russell < > poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: > >> If they wanted 4, they could have awarded the thing to the woman who >> started PETA. Her name, I think, Ingrid ... and something else I can't fully >> remember. >> >> --- On *Fri, 10/7/11, Anny Ballardini * wrote: >> >> >> From: Anny Ballardini >> Subject: [New-Poetry] Nobel Peace Prize: 3 Women >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" < >> new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> >> Date: Friday, October 7, 2011, 6:01 AM >> >> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/08/world/nobel-peace-prize-sirleaf-johnson-gbowee-karman.html?hp >> >> -- >> Anny Ballardini >> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >> star! >> Friedrich Nietzsche >> >> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >> Giovenale >> >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From obodooha at gmail.com Sat Oct 8 04:25:26 2011 From: obodooha at gmail.com (obodooha at gmail.com) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 08:25:26 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nobel Peace Prize: 3 Women In-Reply-To: References: <1318021116.52186.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1928765504-1318062329-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-428668329-@b17.c5.bise7.blackberry> Glad that the role of women in peacework is recognized. Right from the ancient times, men would like to wage war to frighten the world and still want to keep the peace prize to themselves! -- Obododimma. Sent from my BlackBerry? wireless handheld from Glo Mobile. -----Original Message----- From: Anny Ballardini Sender: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.eduDate: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 08:21:37 To: NewPoetry List Reply-To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Nobel Peace Prize: 3 Women _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Oct 8 04:31:38 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 10:31:38 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nobel Peace Prize: 3 Women In-Reply-To: <1928765504-1318062329-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-428668329-@b17.c5.bise7.blackberry> References: <1318021116.52186.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1928765504-1318062329-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-428668329-@b17.c5.bise7.blackberry> Message-ID: Haha, this is a good one. On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 10:25 AM, wrote: > Glad that the role of women in peacework is recognized. Right from the > ancient times, men would like to wage war to frighten the world and still > want to keep the peace prize to themselves! > -- Obododimma. > > Sent from my BlackBerry? wireless handheld from Glo Mobile. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anny Ballardini > Sender: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.eduDate: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 08:21:37 > To: NewPoetry List > Reply-To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Nobel Peace Prize: 3 Women > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Oct 8 07:04:17 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 13:04:17 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Penny Harter: haibun, essay, & interview posted today Message-ID: Dear family and friends, I just found out that two of my haibun, the reprint of an essay about haibun published in *Wingbeats: Exercises and Practice in Poetry * (Dos Gatos Press, 2011), and an interview including a number of poems from several of my books--including one from my children's alphabestiary,*The Beastie Book, *and the first paragraph of Limula's Magic Tail, my new children's story for the Delaware Bay ecosystem--have just been posted in Volume 3, Issue 1 of *Notes from the Gean* (Aberdeen, Scotland): Haibun: http://www.notesfromthegean.com/archives/sept-2011/haibun/haibun_006.html Essay: http://www.notesfromthegean.com/archives/sept-2011/haiku-matters/haiku-matters_001.html Interview: http://www.notesfromthegean.com/archives/sept-2011/interviews.html There's quite a bit to take in here, and I'm honored to have so much space in this fine journal. Hope you can dip in and out of these now and then, and that you enjoy what you read. Warmly, Penny -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Oct 8 13:22:58 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 13:22:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Transtr=C3=B6mer?= Message-ID: <8CE53F60F362809-13E0-6EC3F@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> Espresso Black coffee at sidewalk caf?s with chairs and tables like gaudy insects. It is a precious sip we interrupt filled with the same strength as Yes and No. It is fetched out of gloomy kitchens and looks into the sun without blinking. In daylight a dot of wholesome black quickly drained by the wan patrons? Like those black drops of profundity sometimes absorbed by the soul that give us a healthy push: Go! The courage to open our eyes. --Tomas Transtr?mer (translated by May Swenson, with Leif Sjoberg) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Oct 8 13:25:28 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 19:25:28 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] a wonderful villanelle Message-ID: http://gawow.com/roethke/poems/104.html Theodore Roethke The Waking -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Oct 8 13:46:39 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 12:46:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Transtr=C3=B6mer?= In-Reply-To: <8CE53F60F362809-13E0-6EC3F@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE53F60F362809-13E0-6EC3F@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Nice one. Thanks, Jim. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 12:22 PM, wrote: > Espresso > ****** > ** ** > Black coffee at sidewalk caf?s > with chairs and tables like gaudy insects. > > It is a precious sip we interrupt > filled with the same strength as Yes and No. > ** ** > It is fetched out of gloomy kitchens > and looks into the sun without blinking. > ** ** > In daylight a dot of wholesome black > quickly drained by the wan patrons? > ** ** > Like those black drops of profundity > sometimes absorbed by the soul > ** ** > that give us a healthy push: Go! > The courage to open our eyes. > ** ** > ** ** > ** ** > ** ** > --Tomas Transtr?mer > (translated by May Swenson, with Leif Sjoberg) > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Sat Oct 8 15:09:06 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Sat, 08 Oct 2011 14:09:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?Transtr=F6mer?= In-Reply-To: <8CE53F60F362809-13E0-6EC3F@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE53F60F362809-13E0-6EC3F@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4E909FD2.2080908@louisiana.edu> I dunno. I liked the brewsiness of this at first, but "black drops of profundity" is a little too close to "dim lands of peace" for my taste. I suppose the problem could be in the translation, though if that's so, the translator should be shot. Or at least gently chided. Best, Jerry On 10/8/2011 12:22 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: > Espresso > Black coffee at sidewalk caf?s > with chairs and tables like gaudy insects. > > It is a precious sip we interrupt > filled with the same strength as Yes and No. > It is fetched out of gloomy kitchens > and looks into the sun without blinking. > In daylight a dot of wholesome black > quickly drained by the wan patrons... > Like those black drops of profundity > sometimes absorbed by the soul > that give us a healthy push: Go! > The courage to open our eyes. > --Tomas Transtr?mer > (translated by May Swenson, with Leif Sjoberg) > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Oct 8 15:26:45 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 21:26:45 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?Transtr=F6mer?= In-Reply-To: <4E909FD2.2080908@louisiana.edu> References: <8CE53F60F362809-13E0-6EC3F@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> <4E909FD2.2080908@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: I was also a little uncomfortable, wasn't he a translator? He might have translated it, then. On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 9:09 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: > I dunno. I liked the brewsiness of this at first, but "black drops of > profundity" is a little too close to "dim lands of peace" for my taste. I > suppose the problem could be in the translation, though if that's so, the > translator should be shot. Or at least gently chided. > > Best, > > Jerry > > > On 10/8/2011 12:22 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: > > Espresso > **** > ** ** > Black coffee at sidewalk caf?s > with chairs and tables like gaudy insects. > > It is a precious sip we interrupt > filled with the same strength as Yes and No. > ** ** > It is fetched out of gloomy kitchens > and looks into the sun without blinking. > ** ** > In daylight a dot of wholesome black > quickly drained by the wan patrons? > ** ** > Like those black drops of profundity > sometimes absorbed by the soul > ** ** > that give us a healthy push: Go! > The courage to open our eyes. > ** ** > ** ** > ** ** > ** ** > --Tomas Transtr?mer > (translated by May Swenson, with Leif Sjoberg) > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Oct 8 15:37:11 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 12:37:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: Re: here's the Nobel Message-ID: <1318102631.65861.YahooMailClassic@web161917.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> When Justin Bieber decided to change his hairstyle last February, Jay Foreman was not amused. The founder and CEO of toy manufacturer the Bridge Direct, estimates that Bieber's small change cost Foreman's company a big chunk of change, around $100,000.His company makes dolls based on Bieber's likeness. Not surprisingly, the dolls (we refuse to call them action figures) are a huge hit with kids. Foreman related his tale of woe to CNN Money. Foreman was sitting at his desk when he heard shrieks coming from his co-workers. They'd just learned that Bieber had changed his trademark haircut, rendering the company's hot-selling line of dolls outdated. Foreman had already begun manufacturing a new round of dolls with the star's original haircut. Foreman says that there was nothing he could do at that point because the dolls were already being made. However, during the dolls' second run, he decided to change their hairstyle to reflect their real-life inspiration. The move, he estimates, cost his business around $100,000. But Foreman isn't bitter. He says those are the risks when you make products based on a celebrity. It's no surprise that Bieber's haircut is one of the most popular styles in Yahoo! Search over the past month, but he isn't at the top of the charts. That title belongs to Tom Brady. The Patriots quarterback's haircut inspired more searches than any other celebrity 'do. Following Brady and Bieber are Emma Watson of "Harry Potter" fame, Katie Holmes, Carrie Underwood, Kris Jenner, Dorothy Hamill, Halle Berry, Diana Agron, and Jennifer Love Hewitt. Notably absent from the top ten: Jennifer Aniston. Hey, that's OK. Angelina didn't make the list either. --- On Fri, 10/7/11, stephen russell wrote: From: stephen russell Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] here's the Nobel To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Friday, October 7, 2011, 4:35 PM THE SECRET TO FINDING A PERFECT HAIRCUT ? ? ? ????????? First, measure your face horizontally: ? ???????????????????????? ?? Round face: Length and width are about equal. ???????????????????????????????????????????????* ? ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Take a newspaper? ? ?????????????????????? Take a pair of? scissor? ? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ??? * ??? ? Grab a tape measure, a piece of paper and pen. ? ?????????????????????????????????????????????? Choose an? article as long as you?re planning-- ? starting at the top of your cheekbones. Write that number down. Then, run the tape across your face at jaw-level. Write that number down. ? ??????????????????????????????????? Cut out the article ? ??????????????????????????????????????? * ? ????????????????? Oval face: Your face length is about 1? times longer than the width. ? Square face: The widths of your forehead and jawline are about equal. ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? Then cut out each of the words that make up this article and put them in a bag??? ? ???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????&nb sp;???&nbs p;????????????????????? Shake it gently ?? ?????????????????????????Then take out the scraps one after the other in the order in which they left the bag??? ? ???????????????????????????? Copy?Conscientious????????? ? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????*?????????? ? ?The results? Heart-shaped face: The measurements across your cheekbones and/or forehead will be the widest and your jaw will measure small and narrow. ? ??????????????????????????????????????????????????? Tne poem will be like you ? ?????????????????????????? The haircut will be immortal ? ? ? Tristan Tzara, 1920 ???????????????& Stephen Russell, 2007 ? ???? --- On Thu, 10/6/11, bob grumman wrote: From: bob grumman Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] here's the Nobel To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, October 6, 2011, 3:10 PM Aha, so the secret to success in poetry is making condensed images!? ? --Bob -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Oct 8 16:00:14 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 13:00:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Transtr=C3=B6mer?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1318104014.2781.YahooMailClassic@web161920.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> so May Swenson credits her fellow translator, a native speaker ... didn't Bernstein's daughter toy with computer translations? Forgot her project ... Birds/Bees ... --- On Sat, 10/8/11, Halvard Johnson wrote: From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Transtr?mer To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, October 8, 2011, 1:46 PM Nice one. Thanks, Jim. ?? ? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.orghttp://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 12:22 PM, wrote: Espresso ? ? Black coffee at sidewalk caf?s with chairs and tables like gaudy insects. It is a precious sip we interrupt filled with the same strength as Yes and No. ? It is fetched out of gloomy kitchens and looks into the sun without blinking. ? In daylight a dot of wholesome black quickly drained by the wan patrons? ? Like those black drops of profundity sometimes absorbed by the soul ? that give us a healthy push: Go! The courage to open our eyes. ? ? ? ? --Tomas Transtr?mer (translated by May Swenson, with Leif Sjoberg) _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Oct 8 16:19:56 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 13:19:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] a wonderful villanelle In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1318105196.87919.YahooMailClassic@web161917.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> yes, and Elizabeth Bishop has a few memorable villanelles ... i've never attempted one ... the look alone defeated me ... managed a few sestinas ... but didn't bother counting accents ... convoluted form plus accents seems nearly impossible, but apparently it comes easy to some people ... Roethke will be remembered ... early, he was strictly mainstream ... later ... philosophical free verse, which, as everyone knows, isn't free, but has the feel of freedom. From what? --- On Sat, 10/8/11, Anny Ballardini wrote: From: Anny Ballardini Subject: [New-Poetry] a wonderful villanelle To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" Date: Saturday, October 8, 2011, 1:25 PM http://gawow.com/roethke/poems/104.html Theodore Roethke The Waking -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Oct 8 16:28:05 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 22:28:05 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?Transtr=F6mer?= In-Reply-To: <1318104014.2781.YahooMailClassic@web161920.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1318104014.2781.YahooMailClassic@web161920.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sorry, yes, May Swenson translated it. On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 10:00 PM, stephen russell < poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: > so May Swenson credits her fellow translator, a native speaker ... didn't > Bernstein's daughter toy with computer translations? Forgot her project ... > Birds/Bees ... > > --- On *Sat, 10/8/11, Halvard Johnson * wrote: > > > From: Halvard Johnson > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Transtr?mer > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Saturday, October 8, 2011, 1:46 PM > > > Nice one. Thanks, Jim. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 12:22 PM, > > wrote: > > Espresso > ****** > ** ** > Black coffee at sidewalk caf?s > with chairs and tables like gaudy insects. > > It is a precious sip we interrupt > filled with the same strength as Yes and No. > ** ** > It is fetched out of gloomy kitchens > and looks into the sun without blinking. > ** ** > In daylight a dot of wholesome black > quickly drained by the wan patrons? > ** ** > Like those black drops of profundity > sometimes absorbed by the soul > ** ** > that give us a healthy push: Go! > The courage to open our eyes. > ** ** > ** ** > ** ** > ** ** > --Tomas Transtr?mer > (translated by May Swenson, with Leif Sjoberg) > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Oct 8 16:37:11 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 16:37:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Transtr=C3=B6mer?= In-Reply-To: <4E909FD2.2080908@louisiana.edu> References: <8CE53F60F362809-13E0-6EC3F@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> <4E909FD2.2080908@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: From: Jerry McGuire Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2011 3:09 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Transtr?mer I dunno. I liked the brewsiness of this at first, but "black drops of profundity" is a little too close to "dim lands of peace" for my taste. I suppose the problem could be in the translation, though if that's so, the translator should be shot. Or at least gently chided. Best, Jerry Most of the lines seemed strained to me, and ?black drops of profundity? is much worse than ?dim lands of peace.? I don?t understand the second stanza. The poem as a whole seems competent enough but even revised it doesn?t strike me that it would be any better than the twenty best poems I?ve recently read while on a reviewing binge covering 17 chapbooks or poetry magazines (like Ploughshares). An interesting exercise for poets would be how to fix ?black drops of profundity.? Have to cut ?profundity? for sure. I thought of ?black drops of godhood? as an ironic bow to caffeine?s ability to make us feel like gods. But these drops aren?t of coffee, they?re something else that our souls sometimes absorb. What, I wonder, would that be? Gosh, I can?t coherently paraphrase it, so it must be real poetry, hunh! --Bob On 10/8/2011 12:22 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: Espresso Black coffee at sidewalk caf?s with chairs and tables like gaudy insects. It is a precious sip we interrupt filled with the same strength as Yes and No. It is fetched out of gloomy kitchens and looks into the sun without blinking. In daylight a dot of wholesome black quickly drained by the wan patrons? Like those black drops of profundity sometimes absorbed by the soul that give us a healthy push: Go! The courage to open our eyes. --Tomas Transtr?mer (translated by May Swenson, with Leif Sjoberg) _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Oct 8 16:43:50 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 15:43:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?Transtr=F6mer?= In-Reply-To: <4E909FD2.2080908@louisiana.edu> References: <8CE53F60F362809-13E0-6EC3F@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> <4E909FD2.2080908@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: For comparison, Robin Fulton's version has "the drops of black profoundness." It doesn't appear that Bly was ever moved to translate this particular poem, interestingly. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Oct 8, 2011, at 2:09 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: > I dunno. I liked the brewsiness of this at first, but "black drops of profundity" is a little too close to "dim lands of peace" for my taste. I suppose the problem could be in the translation, though if that's so, the translator should be shot. Or at least gently chided. > > Best, > > Jerry > > On 10/8/2011 12:22 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: >> >> Espresso >> >> >> Black coffee at sidewalk caf?s >> with chairs and tables like gaudy insects. >> >> It is a precious sip we interrupt >> filled with the same strength as Yes and No. >> >> It is fetched out of gloomy kitchens >> and looks into the sun without blinking. >> >> In daylight a dot of wholesome black >> quickly drained by the wan patrons? >> >> Like those black drops of profundity >> sometimes absorbed by the soul >> >> that give us a healthy push: Go! >> The courage to open our eyes. >> >> >> >> >> --Tomas Transtr?mer >> (translated by May Swenson, with Leif Sjoberg) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Oct 8 16:49:50 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 15:49:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?Transtr=F6mer=27s_=22Espresso=22?= In-Reply-To: References: <8CE53F60F362809-13E0-6EC3F@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> <4E909FD2.2080908@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <3E0E515A-E972-49FD-9EB8-D3E7ECB5EBF3@ripon.edu> Anyone in this joint read Swedish? How would YOU translate the line in question? ("Det liknar dropparna av svart djupsinne") Espresso - Tomas Transtr?mer Det svarta kaffet p? uteserveringen med stolar och bord granna som insekter. Det ?r dyrbara uppf?ngade droppar fyllda med samma styrka som Ja och Nej. Det b?rs fram ur dunkla kaf?er och ser in i solen utan att blinka. I dagsljuset en punkt av v?lg?rande svart som snabbt flyter ut i en blek g?st. Det liknar dropparna av svart djupsinne som ibland f?ngas upp av sj?len. som ger en v?lg?rande st?t: G?! Inspiration att ?ppna ?gonen. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Oct 8, 2011, at 3:43 PM, David Graham wrote: > For comparison, Robin Fulton's version has "the drops of black profoundness." It doesn't appear that Bly was ever moved to translate this particular poem, interestingly. > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Oct 8, 2011, at 2:09 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: > >> I dunno. I liked the brewsiness of this at first, but "black drops of profundity" is a little too close to "dim lands of peace" for my taste. I suppose the problem could be in the translation, though if that's so, the translator should be shot. Or at least gently chided. >> >> Best, >> >> Jerry >> >> On 10/8/2011 12:22 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: >>> >>> Espresso >>> >>> >>> Black coffee at sidewalk caf?s >>> with chairs and tables like gaudy insects. >>> >>> It is a precious sip we interrupt >>> filled with the same strength as Yes and No. >>> >>> It is fetched out of gloomy kitchens >>> and looks into the sun without blinking. >>> >>> In daylight a dot of wholesome black >>> quickly drained by the wan patrons? >>> >>> Like those black drops of profundity >>> sometimes absorbed by the soul >>> >>> that give us a healthy push: Go! >>> The courage to open our eyes. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> --Tomas Transtr?mer >>> (translated by May Swenson, with Leif Sjoberg) > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Oct 8 16:51:21 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 16:51:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] a wonderful villanelle In-Reply-To: <1318105196.87919.YahooMailClassic@web161917.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1318105196.87919.YahooMailClassic@web161917.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5F21428F442949979560D6A8635E568C@BobHP> From: stephen russell Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2011 4:19 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] a wonderful villanelle yes, and Elizabeth Bishop has a few memorable villanelles ... i've never attempted one ... the look alone defeated me ... managed a few sestinas ... but didn't bother counting accents ... convoluted form plus accents seems nearly impossible, but apparently it comes easy to some people ... Roethke will be remembered ... early, he was strictly mainstream ... later ... philosophical free verse, which, as everyone knows, isn't free, but has the feel of freedom. From what? With his greenhouse poems he was one of the few poets to leave the mainstream via subject matter. Later, he was one of the earliest genuine language poets. --Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Oct 8 18:13:13 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 18:13:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Transtr=C3=B6mer?= In-Reply-To: References: <8CE53F60F362809-13E0-6EC3F@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com><4E909FD2.2080908@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <8CE541E9B574818-D70-73243@webmail-d180.sysops.aol.com> Every student who has stayed up late cramming knows coffee makes you smarter. -----Original Message----- From: bob grumman To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sat, Oct 8, 2011 4:38 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Transtr?mer From: Jerry McGuire Sent: Saturday, October 08, 2011 3:09 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Transtr?mer I dunno. I liked the brewsiness of this at first, but "black drops of profundity" is a little too close to "dim lands of peace" for my taste. I suppose the problem could be in the translation, though if that's so, the translator should be shot. Or at least gently chided. Best, Jerry Most of the lines seemed strained to me, and ?black drops of profundity? is much worse than ?dim lands of peace.? I don?t understand the second stanza. The poem as a whole seems competent enough but even revised it doesn?t strike me that it would be any better than the twenty best poems I?ve recently read while on a reviewing binge covering 17 chapbooks or poetry magazines (like Ploughshares). An interesting exercise for poets would be how to fix ?black drops of profundity.? Have to cut ?profundity? for sure. I thought of ?black drops of godhood? as an ironic bow to caffeine?s ability to make us feel like gods. But these drops aren?t of coffee, they?re something else that our souls sometimes absorb. What, I wonder, would that be? Gosh, I can?t coherently paraphrase it, so it must be real poetry, hunh! --Bob On 10/8/2011 12:22 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: Espresso Black coffee at sidewalk caf?s with chairs and tables like gaudy insects. It is a precious sip we interrupt filled with the same strength as Yes and No. It is fetched out of gloomy kitchens and looks into the sun without blinking. In daylight a dot of wholesome black quickly drained by the wan patrons? Like those black drops of profundity sometimes absorbed by the soul that give us a healthy push: Go! The courage to open our eyes. --Tomas Transtr?mer (translated by May Swenson, with Leif Sjoberg) _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Oct 8 18:21:34 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 18:21:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] a wonderful villanelle In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CE541FC5D1AEFC-D70-73353@webmail-d180.sysops.aol.com> When I first introduced to contemporary poetry in an elective 'Intro to Creative Writing' class the Collected Roethke was one of the books assigned to we ephebes. Thanks for the memories, Anny. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views Sent: Sat, Oct 8, 2011 1:25 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] a wonderful villanelle http://gawow.com/roethke/poems/104.html Theodore Roethke The Waking -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.weinstock at gmail.com Sat Oct 8 18:26:43 2011 From: david.weinstock at gmail.com (David Weinstock) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 18:26:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Submit to Writers' Almanac? Message-ID: I've been asked how one gets a poem considered for Garrison Keillor's Writers' Almanac. Can one submit, or must publishers, or how does it work? Thanks for any info you can pass along. David -- DAVID WEINSTOCK *Email: david.weinstock at gmail.com* *Mail: 240 Woodland Park, Middlebury VT 05753 USA* *Blog: www.waitingforhungry.blogspot.com* *Phone: 802-388-6939 * *Cell: 802-989-4314* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Oct 8 19:45:01 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 18:45:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Submit to Writers' Almanac? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, first of all, you have to live in or come from Minnesota. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 5:26 PM, David Weinstock wrote: > I've been asked how one gets a poem considered for Garrison Keillor's > Writers' Almanac. Can one submit, or must publishers, or how does it work? > Thanks for any info you can pass along. > > David > > > -- > DAVID WEINSTOCK > *Email: david.weinstock at gmail.com* > *Mail: 240 Woodland Park, Middlebury VT 05753 USA* > *Blog: www.waitingforhungry.blogspot.com* > *Phone: 802-388-6939 * > *Cell: 802-989-4314* > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Oct 8 19:55:16 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 19:55:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Submit to Writers' Almanac? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: David Weinstock I've been asked how one gets a poem considered for Garrison Keillor's Writers' Almanac. Wow, David, what a straight line! But I?ll be nice and not take advantage of it. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.weinstock at gmail.com Sat Oct 8 19:57:50 2011 From: david.weinstock at gmail.com (David Weinstock) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 19:57:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Submit to Writers' Almanac? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oddly enough, I am actually asking for information. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Oct 8 20:09:58 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 19:09:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Submit to Writers' Almanac? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oddly enough, I ain't got none. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 6:57 PM, David Weinstock wrote: > Oddly enough, I am actually asking for information. > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Oct 8 21:21:45 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 20:21:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?Transtr=F6mer?= Message-ID: A good brief article here, "Where Should I Start with Tomas Transtr?mer?" http://www.slate.com/blogs/browbeat/2011/10/06/tomas_transtromer_what_should_i_read_first_.html ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From millb at aol.com Sat Oct 8 22:58:03 2011 From: millb at aol.com (Millicent Borges Accardi) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 22:58:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Submit to Writers' Almanac? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CE544665788710-1904-4D3EB@webmail-d043.sysops.aol.com> I have sent copies of my last two books without any response, which may be a reflection on them or my work or neither. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Oct 8 23:01:55 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2011 22:01:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Submit to Writers' Almanac? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <52AC07FF-4657-4AB6-BC54-C8ACB7B61C72@ripon.edu> I was on Writer's Almanac once, and they found my work in an anthology, not in one of my own books. That's the sum total of my knowledge. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Oct 8, 2011, at 5:26 PM, David Weinstock wrote: > I've been asked how one gets a poem considered for Garrison Keillor's Writers' Almanac. Can one submit, or must publishers, or how does it work? Thanks for any info you can pass along. > > David > > > -- > DAVID WEINSTOCK > Email: david.weinstock at gmail.com > Mail: 240 Woodland Park, Middlebury VT 05753 USA > Blog: www.waitingforhungry.blogspot.com > Phone: 802-388-6939 > Cell: 802-989-4314 > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Oct 9 03:24:08 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 09:24:08 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?Transtr=F6mer?= In-Reply-To: <8CE541E9B574818-D70-73243@webmail-d180.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE53F60F362809-13E0-6EC3F@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> <4E909FD2.2080908@louisiana.edu> <8CE541E9B574818-D70-73243@webmail-d180.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Every student who gets up in the morning knows that coffee gets you somehow together. On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 12:13 AM, wrote: > Every student who has stayed up late cramming knows coffee makes you > smarter. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: bob grumman > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Sat, Oct 8, 2011 4:38 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Transtr?mer > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Oct 9 03:30:11 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 09:30:11 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?Transtr=F6mer=27s_=22Espresso=22?= In-Reply-To: <3E0E515A-E972-49FD-9EB8-D3E7ECB5EBF3@ripon.edu> References: <8CE53F60F362809-13E0-6EC3F@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> <4E909FD2.2080908@louisiana.edu> <3E0E515A-E972-49FD-9EB8-D3E7ECB5EBF3@ripon.edu> Message-ID: Let me try to use my brain. I can easily imagine Sweden. I was there for a couple of months some years ago during the summer. And although it was summer it was cold, and then the world is engulfed into coldness and blackness, as it was in Heidelberg (Germany) where I spent six months during the winter. Maybe round noon does a white light leak through. And just for a couple of hours. Probably "djupsinne" captures this lack of light that detaches people and keeps them inside, in their offices, in their homes. Something you cannot translate nor understand unless you live there, in the distant north. On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 10:49 PM, David Graham wrote: > Anyone in this joint read Swedish? How would YOU translate the line in > question? ("Det liknar dropparna av svart djupsinne") > > *Espresso* - Tomas Transtr?mer**** > > ** ** > > Det svarta kaffet p? uteserveringen**** > > med stolar och bord granna som insekter.**** > > ** ** > > Det ?r dyrbara uppf?ngade droppar**** > > fyllda med samma styrka som Ja och Nej.**** > > ** ** > > Det b?rs fram ur dunkla kaf?er**** > > och ser in i solen utan att blinka.**** > > ** ** > > I dagsljuset en punkt av v?lg?rande svart**** > > som snabbt flyter ut i en blek g?st.**** > > ** ** > > Det liknar dropparna av svart djupsinne**** > > som ibland f?ngas upp av sj?len.**** > > ** ** > > som ger en v?lg?rande st?t: G?!**** > > Inspiration att ?ppna ?gonen. > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Oct 8, 2011, at 3:43 PM, David Graham wrote: > > For comparison, Robin Fulton's version has "the drops of black > profoundness." It doesn't appear that Bly was ever moved to translate this > particular poem, interestingly. > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Oct 8, 2011, at 2:09 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: > > I dunno. I liked the brewsiness of this at first, but "black drops of > profundity" is a little too close to "dim lands of peace" for my taste. I > suppose the problem could be in the translation, though if that's so, the > translator should be shot. Or at least gently chided. > > Best, > > Jerry > > On 10/8/2011 12:22 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: > > Espresso > **** > ** ** > Black coffee at sidewalk caf?s > with chairs and tables like gaudy insects. > > It is a precious sip we interrupt > filled with the same strength as Yes and No. > ** ** > It is fetched out of gloomy kitchens > and looks into the sun without blinking. > ** ** > In daylight a dot of wholesome black > quickly drained by the wan patrons? > ** ** > Like those black drops of profundity > sometimes absorbed by the soul > ** ** > that give us a healthy push: Go! > The courage to open our eyes. > ** ** > ** ** > ** ** > ** ** > --Tomas Transtr?mer > (translated by May Swenson, with Leif Sjoberg) > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Oct 9 03:33:39 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 09:33:39 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?Transtr=F6mer=27s_=22Espresso=22?= In-Reply-To: References: <8CE53F60F362809-13E0-6EC3F@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> <4E909FD2.2080908@louisiana.edu> <3E0E515A-E972-49FD-9EB8-D3E7ECB5EBF3@ripon.edu> Message-ID: That's what it is, darkness, as in the following, taken from the article David Graham has forwarded: The strategic planetarium rotates. The lenses stare into the darkness. The night sky is full of numbers, and they?re fed into a blinking cupboard, a piece of furniture, inside it the energy of a grasshopper swarm that devours the acres of Somalia in half an hour. On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 9:30 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Let me try to use my brain. > I can easily imagine Sweden. I was there for a couple of months some years > ago during the summer. And although it was summer it was cold, and then the > world is engulfed into coldness and blackness, as it was in Heidelberg > (Germany) where I spent six months during the winter. Maybe round noon does > a white light leak through. And just for a couple of hours. > Probably "djupsinne" captures this lack of light that detaches people and > keeps them inside, in their offices, in their homes. Something you cannot > translate nor understand unless you live there, in the distant north. > > > On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 10:49 PM, David Graham wrote: > >> Anyone in this joint read Swedish? How would YOU translate the line in >> question? ("Det liknar dropparna av svart djupsinne") >> >> *Espresso* - Tomas Transtr?mer**** >> >> ** ** >> >> Det svarta kaffet p? uteserveringen**** >> >> med stolar och bord granna som insekter.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> Det ?r dyrbara uppf?ngade droppar**** >> >> fyllda med samma styrka som Ja och Nej.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> Det b?rs fram ur dunkla kaf?er**** >> >> och ser in i solen utan att blinka.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> I dagsljuset en punkt av v?lg?rande svart**** >> >> som snabbt flyter ut i en blek g?st.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> Det liknar dropparna av svart djupsinne**** >> >> som ibland f?ngas upp av sj?len.**** >> >> ** ** >> >> som ger en v?lg?rande st?t: G?!**** >> >> Inspiration att ?ppna ?gonen. >> >> >> ======================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd at ripon.edu >> >> Home Page: >> http://web.me.com/drjazz >> >> Poetry Library: >> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >> ========================================== >> >> >> >> >> On Oct 8, 2011, at 3:43 PM, David Graham wrote: >> >> For comparison, Robin Fulton's version has "the drops of black >> profoundness." It doesn't appear that Bly was ever moved to translate this >> particular poem, interestingly. >> >> >> >> >> ======================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd at ripon.edu >> >> Home Page: >> http://web.me.com/drjazz >> >> Poetry Library: >> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >> ========================================== >> >> >> >> >> On Oct 8, 2011, at 2:09 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: >> >> I dunno. I liked the brewsiness of this at first, but "black drops of >> profundity" is a little too close to "dim lands of peace" for my taste. I >> suppose the problem could be in the translation, though if that's so, the >> translator should be shot. Or at least gently chided. >> >> Best, >> >> Jerry >> >> On 10/8/2011 12:22 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: >> >> Espresso >> **** >> ** ** >> Black coffee at sidewalk caf?s >> with chairs and tables like gaudy insects. >> >> It is a precious sip we interrupt >> filled with the same strength as Yes and No. >> ** ** >> It is fetched out of gloomy kitchens >> and looks into the sun without blinking. >> ** ** >> In daylight a dot of wholesome black >> quickly drained by the wan patrons? >> ** ** >> Like those black drops of profundity >> sometimes absorbed by the soul >> ** ** >> that give us a healthy push: Go! >> The courage to open our eyes. >> ** ** >> ** ** >> ** ** >> ** ** >> --Tomas Transtr?mer >> (translated by May Swenson, with Leif Sjoberg) >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bircumplus at yahoo.co.uk Sun Oct 9 03:58:44 2011 From: bircumplus at yahoo.co.uk (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 08:58:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Transtr=C3=B6mer=27s_=22Espresso=22?= In-Reply-To: References: <8CE53F60F362809-13E0-6EC3F@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> <4E909FD2.2080908@louisiana.edu> <3E0E515A-E972-49FD-9EB8-D3E7ECB5EBF3@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <1318147124.90690.YahooMailNeo@web28502.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Translating Transtr?mer can be a dangerous enterprise, as this recent selection from the TLS demonstrates: http://www.the-tls.co.uk/tls/public/article791993.ece best David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com ________________________________ From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sunday, 9 October 2011, 8:33 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Transtr?mer's "Espresso" That's what it is, darkness, as in the following, taken from the article David Graham has forwarded: ??????????? The strategic planetarium rotates. The lenses stare into the darkness. ??????????? The night sky is full of numbers, and they?re fed into ??????????? a blinking cupboard, ??????????? a piece of furniture, ??????????? inside it the energy of a grasshopper swarm that devours the acres ??????????????????????? of Somalia in half an hour. On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 9:30 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: Let me try to use my brain. >I can easily imagine Sweden. I was there for a couple of months some years ago during the summer. And although it was summer it was cold, and then the world is engulfed into coldness and blackness, as it was in Heidelberg (Germany) where I spent six months during the winter. Maybe round noon does a white light leak through. And just for a couple of hours. >Probably "djupsinne" captures this lack of light that detaches people and keeps them inside, in their offices, in their homes. Something you cannot translate nor understand unless you live there, in the distant north. > > > > >On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 10:49 PM, David Graham wrote: > >Anyone?in this joint?read Swedish? ?How would YOU translate the line in question? ?("Det liknar dropparna av svart djupsinne") >> >> >>Espresso- Tomas Transtr?mer >>? >>Det svarta kaffet p? uteserveringen >>med stolar och bord granna som insekter. >>? >>Det ?r dyrbara uppf?ngade droppar >>fyllda med samma styrka som Ja och Nej. >>? >>Det b?rs fram ur dunkla kaf?er >>och ser in i solen utan att blinka. >>? >>I dagsljuset en punkt av v?lg?rande svart >>som snabbt flyter ut i en blek g?st. >>? >>Det liknar dropparna av svart djupsinne >>som ibland f?ngas upp av sj?len. >>? >>som ger en v?lg?rande st?t: G?! >>Inspiration att ?ppna ?gonen. >> >> >> >>======================================== >>David Graham >>grahamd at ripon.edu >> >> >>Home Page: >>http://web.me.com/drjazz >> >> >>Poetry Library: >>http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >>========================================== >> >> >> >> >> >>On Oct 8, 2011, at 3:43 PM, David Graham wrote: >> >>For comparison, Robin Fulton's version has "the drops of black profoundness." ?It doesn't appear that Bly was ever moved to translate this particular poem, interestingly. ? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>======================================== >>>David Graham >>>grahamd at ripon.edu >>> >>> >>>Home Page: >>>http://web.me.com/drjazz >>> >>> >>>Poetry Library: >>>http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >>>========================================== >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>On Oct 8, 2011, at 2:09 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: >>> >>>I dunno. I liked the brewsiness of this at first, but "black drops of profundity" is a little too close to "dim lands of peace" for my taste. I suppose the problem could be in the translation, though if that's so, the translator should be shot. Or at least gently chided. >>>> >>>>Best, >>>> >>>>Jerry >>>> >>>>On 10/8/2011 12:22 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: >>>>Espresso >>>>>? >>>>>? >>>>>Black coffee at sidewalk caf?s >>>>>with chairs and tables like gaudy insects. >>>>> >>>>>It is a precious sip we interrupt >>>>>filled with the same strength as Yes and No. >>>>>? >>>>>It is fetched out of gloomy kitchens >>>>>and looks into the sun without blinking. >>>>>? >>>>>In daylight a dot of wholesome black >>>>>quickly drained by the wan patrons? >>>>>? >>>>>Like those black drops of profundity >>>>>sometimes absorbed by the soul >>>>>? >>>>>that give us a healthy push: Go! >>>>>The courage to open our eyes. >>>>>? >>>>>? >>>>>? >>>>>? >>>>>--Tomas Transtr?mer >>>>>(translated by May Swenson, with Leif Sjoberg) >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > >-- >Anny Ballardini >http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! >Friedrich Nietzsche > >? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >Giovenale > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Oct 9 04:26:51 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 10:26:51 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] On True Succeess Message-ID: http://www.ted.com/talks/john_wooden_on_the_difference_between_winning_and_success.html John Wooden -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Oct 9 11:09:49 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 11:09:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Submit to Writers' Almanac? In-Reply-To: <52AC07FF-4657-4AB6-BC54-C8ACB7B61C72@ripon.edu> References: <52AC07FF-4657-4AB6-BC54-C8ACB7B61C72@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <8CE54AC9F715FC3-1F10-7E5DD@webmail-d178.sysops.aol.com> Some years ago, out of the blue, one of my poems was featured. Since I seldom publish I was truly astounded. Also, in my case, the poem picked was from an anthology called: Drive, They Said, edited by Kurt Brown... http://www.amazon.com/Drive-They-Said-Poems-Americans/dp/0915943905/ref=sr_1_fkmr3_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1318172521&sr=8-1-fkmr3 I'm pretty certain that was where it was found. The poem had appeared in an obscure journal (the name of which I no longer remember); so I doubt more than a handful of souls saw it there. Finnegan ps: when I just went to Amazon to clip & post the above link I noticed someone had posted a comment about the anthology, citing "The Wrecker." That was mine, too, but not the one Keillor (or his staff) selected. Curiously my main talent may be 'automotif'. -----Original Message----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sat, Oct 8, 2011 11:02 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Submit to Writers' Almanac? I was on Writer's Almanac once, and they found my work in an anthology, not in one of my own books. That's the sum total of my knowledge. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Oct 8, 2011, at 5:26 PM, David Weinstock wrote: I've been asked how one gets a poem considered for Garrison Keillor's Writers' Almanac. Can one submit, or must publishers, or how does it work? Thanks for any info you can pass along. David -- DAVID WEINSTOCK Email: david.weinstock at gmail.com Mail: 240 Woodland Park, Middlebury VT 05753 USA Blog: www.waitingforhungry.blogspot.com Phone: 802-388-6939 Cell: 802-989-4314 _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Oct 9 11:45:22 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 11:45:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Transtr=C3=B6mer=27s_=22Espresso=22?= In-Reply-To: <1318147124.90690.YahooMailNeo@web28502.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <8CE53F60F362809-13E0-6EC3F@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com><4E909FD2.2080908@louisiana.edu><3E0E515A-E972-49FD-9EB8-D3E7ECB5EBF3@ripon.edu> <1318147124.90690.YahooMailNeo@web28502.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CE54B196887BA3-1F10-7EB52@webmail-d178.sysops.aol.com> Thanks for pointing to this article. A host of issues arise in course of that flap over Robertson's translations. One that isn't brought up enough is why are the same poets translated over and over. If a couple of accomplished translations are published during a fifty year period wouldn't that be enough. Are there not hundreds of poets Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: David Bircumshaw To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sun, Oct 9, 2011 4:02 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Transtr?mer's "Espresso" Translating Transtr?mer can be a dangerous enterprise, as this recent selection from the TLS demonstrates: http://www.the-tls.co.uk/tls/public/article791993.ece best David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sunday, 9 October 2011, 8:33 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Transtr?mer's "Espresso" That's what it is, darkness, as in the following, taken from the article David Graham has forwarded: The strategic planetarium rotates. The lenses stare into the darkness. The night sky is full of numbers, and they?re fed into a blinking cupboard, a piece of furniture, inside it the energy of a grasshopper swarm that devours the acres of Somalia in half an hour. On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 9:30 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: Let me try to use my brain. I can easily imagine Sweden. I was there for a couple of months some years ago during the summer. And although it was summer it was cold, and then the world is engulfed into coldness and blackness, as it was in Heidelberg (Germany) where I spent six months during the winter. Maybe round noon does a white light leak through. And just for a couple of hours. Probably "djupsinne" captures this lack of light that detaches people and keeps them inside, in their offices, in their homes. Something you cannot translate nor understand unless you live there, in the distant north. On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 10:49 PM, David Graham wrote: Anyone in this joint read Swedish? How would YOU translate the line in question? ("Det liknar dropparna av svart djupsinne") Espresso - Tomas Transtr?mer Det svarta kaffet p? uteserveringen med stolar och bord granna som insekter. Det ?r dyrbara uppf?ngade droppar fyllda med samma styrka som Ja och Nej. Det b?rs fram ur dunkla kaf?er och ser in i solen utan att blinka. I dagsljuset en punkt av v?lg?rande svart som snabbt flyter ut i en blek g?st. Det liknar dropparna av svart djupsinne som ibland f?ngas upp av sj?len. som ger en v?lg?rande st?t: G?! Inspiration att ?ppna ?gonen. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Oct 8, 2011, at 3:43 PM, David Graham wrote: For comparison, Robin Fulton's version has "the drops of black profoundness." It doesn't appear that Bly was ever moved to translate this particular poem, interestingly. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Oct 8, 2011, at 2:09 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: I dunno. I liked the brewsiness of this at first, but "black drops of profundity" is a little too close to "dim lands of peace" for my taste. I suppose the problem could be in the translation, though if that's so, the translator should be shot. Or at least gently chided. Best, Jerry On 10/8/2011 12:22 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: Espresso Black coffee at sidewalk caf?s with chairs and tables like gaudy insects. It is a precious sip we interrupt filled with the same strength as Yes and No. It is fetched out of gloomy kitchens and looks into the sun without blinking. In daylight a dot of wholesome black quickly drained by the wan patrons? Like those black drops of profundity sometimes absorbed by the soul that give us a healthy push: Go! The courage to open our eyes. --Tomas Transtr?mer (translated by May Swenson, with Leif Sjoberg) _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Oct 9 11:51:42 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 11:51:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Transtr=C3=B6mer=27s_=22Espresso=22?= In-Reply-To: <8CE54B196887BA3-1F10-7EB52@webmail-d178.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE53F60F362809-13E0-6EC3F@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com><4E909FD2.2080908@louisiana.edu><3E0E515A-E972-49FD-9EB8-D3E7ECB5EBF3@ripon.edu> <1318147124.90690.YahooMailNeo@web28502.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <8CE54B196887BA3-1F10-7EB52@webmail-d178.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CE54B2796989A3-1F10-7EC7C@webmail-d178.sysops.aol.com> To finish that thought... Are there not hundreds of poets languishing without suitable translations, untranslated or only translated spottily, with an odd poem published here & there in some journal? Once a poet is translated and garners a bit of an audience, it seems to be the case that more and more translations will appear without really advancing our appreciation or understanding of the poet's poetry. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: jforjames To: new-poetry Sent: Sun, Oct 9, 2011 11:45 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Transtr?mer's "Espresso" Thanks for pointing to this article. A host of issues arise in course of that flap over Robertson's translations. One that isn't brought up enough is why are the same poets translated over and over. If a couple of accomplished translations are published during a fifty year period wouldn't that be enough. Are there not hundreds of poets Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: David Bircumshaw To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sun, Oct 9, 2011 4:02 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Transtr?mer's "Espresso" Translating Transtr?mer can be a dangerous enterprise, as this recent selection from the TLS demonstrates: http://www.the-tls.co.uk/tls/public/article791993.ece best David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sunday, 9 October 2011, 8:33 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Transtr?mer's "Espresso" That's what it is, darkness, as in the following, taken from the article David Graham has forwarded: The strategic planetarium rotates. The lenses stare into the darkness. The night sky is full of numbers, and they?re fed into a blinking cupboard, a piece of furniture, inside it the energy of a grasshopper swarm that devours the acres of Somalia in half an hour. On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 9:30 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: Let me try to use my brain. I can easily imagine Sweden. I was there for a couple of months some years ago during the summer. And although it was summer it was cold, and then the world is engulfed into coldness and blackness, as it was in Heidelberg (Germany) where I spent six months during the winter. Maybe round noon does a white light leak through. And just for a couple of hours. Probably "djupsinne" captures this lack of light that detaches people and keeps them inside, in their offices, in their homes. Something you cannot translate nor understand unless you live there, in the distant north. On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 10:49 PM, David Graham wrote: Anyone in this joint read Swedish? How would YOU translate the line in question? ("Det liknar dropparna av svart djupsinne") Espresso - Tomas Transtr?mer Det svarta kaffet p? uteserveringen med stolar och bord granna som insekter. Det ?r dyrbara uppf?ngade droppar fyllda med samma styrka som Ja och Nej. Det b?rs fram ur dunkla kaf?er och ser in i solen utan att blinka. I dagsljuset en punkt av v?lg?rande svart som snabbt flyter ut i en blek g?st. Det liknar dropparna av svart djupsinne som ibland f?ngas upp av sj?len. som ger en v?lg?rande st?t: G?! Inspiration att ?ppna ?gonen. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Oct 8, 2011, at 3:43 PM, David Graham wrote: For comparison, Robin Fulton's version has "the drops of black profoundness." It doesn't appear that Bly was ever moved to translate this particular poem, interestingly. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Oct 8, 2011, at 2:09 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: I dunno. I liked the brewsiness of this at first, but "black drops of profundity" is a little too close to "dim lands of peace" for my taste. I suppose the problem could be in the translation, though if that's so, the translator should be shot. Or at least gently chided. Best, Jerry On 10/8/2011 12:22 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: Espresso Black coffee at sidewalk caf?s with chairs and tables like gaudy insects. It is a precious sip we interrupt filled with the same strength as Yes and No. It is fetched out of gloomy kitchens and looks into the sun without blinking. In daylight a dot of wholesome black quickly drained by the wan patrons? Like those black drops of profundity sometimes absorbed by the soul that give us a healthy push: Go! The courage to open our eyes. --Tomas Transtr?mer (translated by May Swenson, with Leif Sjoberg) _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Oct 9 12:00:20 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 12:00:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry in performance, nyc Message-ID: <8CE54B3ADD8D3C3-1F10-7EE9E@webmail-d178.sysops.aol.com> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/07/books/poetry-in-performance-in-new-york.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=nuyorican&st=cse If you live in New York, the opportunities to hear poetry abound. Places like the legendary Nuyorican Poets Cafe are going strong, and the city?s Grand Establishments ? notably Dylan Thomas?s old benefactor, the Poetry Center ? bring in the country?s most prominent writers. (And the world?s: Seamus Heaney opened the season there last week.) Meanwhile New York?s tradition of small-scale bar-based readings is ably carried on by series like Mixer on the Lower East Side and Pete?s Candy Store in Williamsburg. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Oct 9 12:16:46 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 18:16:46 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?Transtr=F6mer=27s_=22Espresso=22?= In-Reply-To: <8CE54B2796989A3-1F10-7EC7C@webmail-d178.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE53F60F362809-13E0-6EC3F@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> <4E909FD2.2080908@louisiana.edu> <3E0E515A-E972-49FD-9EB8-D3E7ECB5EBF3@ripon.edu> <1318147124.90690.YahooMailNeo@web28502.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <8CE54B196887BA3-1F10-7EB52@webmail-d178.sysops.aol.com> <8CE54B2796989A3-1F10-7EC7C@webmail-d178.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: There is an Italian saying, to clean on the clean, i.e. translate what has been already translated! that is undoubtedly easier, On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 5:51 PM, wrote: > To finish that thought... > > Are there not hundreds of poets languishing without suitable translations, > untranslated or only translated spottily, > with an odd poem published here & there in some journal? Once a poet is > translated and garners a bit of an audience, > it seems to be the case that more and more translations will appear without > really advancing our appreciation or > understanding of the poet's poetry. > > Finnegan > > -----Original Message----- > From: jforjames > To: new-poetry > Sent: Sun, Oct 9, 2011 11:45 am > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Transtr?mer's "Espresso" > > Thanks for pointing to this article. A host of issues arise in course of > that flap over Robertson's translations. > One that isn't brought up enough is why are the same poets translated over > and over. If a couple of accomplished > translations are published during a fifty year period wouldn't that be > enough. Are there not hundreds of poets > > > Finnegan > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Bircumshaw > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Sun, Oct 9, 2011 4:02 am > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Transtr?mer's "Espresso" > > Translating Transtr?mer can be a dangerous enterprise, as this recent > selection from the TLS demonstrates: > > http://www.the-tls.co.uk/tls/public/article791993.ece > > > best > > > David Bircumshaw > > Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk > Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com > ------------------------------ > *From:* Anny Ballardini > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Sent:* Sunday, 9 October 2011, 8:33 > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Transtr?mer's "Espresso" > > That's what it is, darkness, as in the following, taken from the article > David Graham has forwarded: > > The strategic planetarium rotates. The lenses stare into the > darkness. > The night sky is full of numbers, and they?re fed into > a blinking cupboard, > a piece of furniture, > inside it the energy of a grasshopper swarm that devours the > acres > of Somalia in half an hour. > > On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 9:30 AM, Anny Ballardini > wrote: > > Let me try to use my brain. > I can easily imagine Sweden. I was there for a couple of months some years > ago during the summer. And although it was summer it was cold, and then the > world is engulfed into coldness and blackness, as it was in Heidelberg > (Germany) where I spent six months during the winter. Maybe round noon does > a white light leak through. And just for a couple of hours. > Probably "djupsinne" captures this lack of light that detaches people and > keeps them inside, in their offices, in their homes. Something you cannot > translate nor understand unless you live there, in the distant north. > > > On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 10:49 PM, David Graham wrote: > > Anyone in this joint read Swedish? How would YOU translate the line in > question? ("Det liknar dropparna av svart djupsinne") > > *Espresso* - Tomas Transtr?mer**** > ** ** > Det svarta kaffet p? uteserveringen**** > med stolar och bord granna som insekter.**** > ** ** > Det ?r dyrbara uppf?ngade droppar**** > fyllda med samma styrka som Ja och Nej.**** > ** ** > Det b?rs fram ur dunkla kaf?er**** > och ser in i solen utan att blinka.**** > ** ** > I dagsljuset en punkt av v?lg?rande svart**** > som snabbt flyter ut i en blek g?st.**** > ** ** > Det liknar dropparna av svart djupsinne**** > som ibland f?ngas upp av sj?len.**** > ** ** > som ger en v?lg?rande st?t: G?!**** > Inspiration att ?ppna ?gonen. > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Oct 8, 2011, at 3:43 PM, David Graham wrote: > > For comparison, Robin Fulton's version has "the drops of black > profoundness." It doesn't appear that Bly was ever moved to translate this > particular poem, interestingly. > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Oct 8, 2011, at 2:09 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: > > I dunno. I liked the brewsiness of this at first, but "black drops of > profundity" is a little too close to "dim lands of peace" for my taste. I > suppose the problem could be in the translation, though if that's so, the > translator should be shot. Or at least gently chided. > > Best, > > Jerry > > On 10/8/2011 12:22 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: > > Espresso > **** > ** ** > Black coffee at sidewalk caf?s > with chairs and tables like gaudy insects. > > It is a precious sip we interrupt > filled with the same strength as Yes and No. > ** ** > It is fetched out of gloomy kitchens > and looks into the sun without blinking. > ** ** > In daylight a dot of wholesome black > quickly drained by the wan patrons? > ** ** > Like those black drops of profundity > sometimes absorbed by the soul > ** ** > that give us a healthy push: Go! > The courage to open our eyes. > ** ** > ** ** > ** ** > ** ** > --Tomas Transtr?mer > (translated by May Swenson, with Leif Sjoberg) > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Oct 9 13:15:51 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 13:15:51 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry in performance, nyc Message-ID: <18927827.1318180552291.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bircumplus at yahoo.co.uk Sun Oct 9 13:53:28 2011 From: bircumplus at yahoo.co.uk (David Bircumshaw) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 18:53:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Transtr=C3=B6mer=27s_=22Espresso=22?= References: <8CE53F60F362809-13E0-6EC3F@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> <4E909FD2.2080908@louisiana.edu> <3E0E515A-E972-49FD-9EB8-D3E7ECB5EBF3@ripon.edu> <1318147124.90690.YahooMailNeo@web28502.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <8CE54B196887BA3-1F10-7EB52@webmail-d178.sysops.aol.com> <8CE54B2796989A3-1F10-7EC7C@webmail-d178.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1318182808.25550.YahooMailNeo@web28511.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Yes, I think Anny's Italian saying answers James' question to a considerable extent (and it also possibly justifies some of Robin Fulton's ire in the columns of TLS correspondence: many translators use existing translations as models). By the way, I did some combing for definitions of 'djupsinne' and could not find a direct English translation, although I did find Latin or German translations. It would seem that 'deep' or 'profound' or 'abysmal' is something like its meaning though 'djupsinnig' is I think the normal Swedish form. I asked a Swedish friend and she said it wasn't standard speech so?Transtr?mer is possibly not guilty m'lud of a poetic transgression. ? David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com ________________________________ From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sunday, 9 October 2011, 17:16 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Transtr?mer's "Espresso" There is an Italian saying, to clean on the clean, i.e. translate what has been already translated! that is undoubtedly easier, On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 5:51 PM, wrote: To finish that thought... >? >Are there not hundreds of poets languishing without suitable translations, untranslated or only translated spottily, >with?an odd poem published here & there in some journal? Once a poet is translated and garners a bit of an audience,? >it seems to be the case that more and more translations will appear without really advancing our appreciation or >understanding?of the poet's poetry. >? >Finnegan >? >-----Original Message----- >From: jforjames >To: new-poetry >Sent: Sun, Oct 9, 2011 11:45 am >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Transtr?mer's "Espresso" > > >Thanks for pointing to this article. A host of issues arise in course of that flap over Robertson's translations. >One that isn't brought up enough is why are the same poets translated over and over. If a couple of accomplished >translations are published during?a fifty year period wouldn't that be enough. Are there not hundreds of poets >? >? >Finnegan > > >-----Original Message----- >From: David Bircumshaw >To: NewPoetry List >Sent: Sun, Oct 9, 2011 4:02 am >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Transtr?mer's "Espresso" > > >Translating Transtr?mer can be a dangerous enterprise, as this recent selection from the TLS demonstrates: > >http://www.the-tls.co.uk/tls/public/article791993.ece > > >best > > > >David Bircumshaw > > >Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk >Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com > > >________________________________ > From: Anny Ballardini >To: NewPoetry List >Sent: Sunday, 9 October 2011, 8:33 >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Transtr?mer's "Espresso" > > >That's what it is, darkness, as in the following, taken from the article David Graham has forwarded: > >??????????? The strategic planetarium rotates. The lenses stare into the darkness. >??????????? The night sky is full of numbers, and they?re fed into >??????????? a blinking cupboard, >??????????? a piece of furniture, >??????????? inside it the energy of a grasshopper swarm that devours the acres >??????????????????????? of Somalia in half an hour. > > >On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 9:30 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > >Let me try to use my brain. >>I can easily imagine Sweden. I was there for a couple of months some years ago during the summer. And although it was summer it was cold, and then the world is engulfed into coldness and blackness, as it was in Heidelberg (Germany) where I spent six months during the winter. Maybe round noon does a white light leak through. And just for a couple of hours. >>Probably "djupsinne" captures this lack of light that detaches people and keeps them inside, in their offices, in their homes. Something you cannot translate nor understand unless you live there, in the distant north. >> >> >> >> >>On Sat, Oct 8, 2011 at 10:49 PM, David Graham wrote: >> >>Anyone?in this joint?read Swedish? ?How would YOU translate the line in question? ?("Det liknar dropparna av svart djupsinne") >>> >>> >>>Espresso- Tomas Transtr?mer >>>? >>>Det svarta kaffet p? uteserveringen >>>med stolar och bord granna som insekter. >>>? >>>Det ?r dyrbara uppf?ngade droppar >>>fyllda med samma styrka som Ja och Nej. >>>? >>>Det b?rs fram ur dunkla kaf?er >>>och ser in i solen utan att blinka. >>>? >>>I dagsljuset en punkt av v?lg?rande svart >>>som snabbt flyter ut i en blek g?st. >>>? >>>Det liknar dropparna av svart djupsinne >>>som ibland f?ngas upp av sj?len. >>>? >>>som ger en v?lg?rande st?t: G?! >>>Inspiration att ?ppna ?gonen. >>> >>> >>> >>>======================================== >>>David Graham >>>grahamd at ripon.edu >>> >>> >>>Home Page: >>>http://web.me.com/drjazz >>> >>> >>>Poetry Library: >>>http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >>>========================================== >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>On Oct 8, 2011, at 3:43 PM, David Graham wrote: >>> >>>For comparison, Robin Fulton's version has "the drops of black profoundness." ?It doesn't appear that Bly was ever moved to translate this particular poem, interestingly. ? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>======================================== >>>>David Graham >>>>grahamd at ripon.edu >>>> >>>> >>>>Home Page: >>>>http://web.me.com/drjazz >>>> >>>> >>>>Poetry Library: >>>>http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >>>>========================================== >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>On Oct 8, 2011, at 2:09 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: >>>> >>>>I dunno. I liked the brewsiness of this at first, but "black drops of profundity" is a little too close to "dim lands of peace" for my taste. I suppose the problem could be in the translation, though if that's so, the translator should be shot. Or at least gently chided. >>>>> >>>>>Best, >>>>> >>>>>Jerry >>>>> >>>>>On 10/8/2011 12:22 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: >>>>>Espresso >>>>>>? >>>>>>? >>>>>>Black coffee at sidewalk caf?s >>>>>>with chairs and tables like gaudy insects. >>>>>> >>>>>>It is a precious sip we interrupt >>>>>>filled with the same strength as Yes and No. >>>>>>? >>>>>>It is fetched out of gloomy kitchens >>>>>>and looks into the sun without blinking. >>>>>>? >>>>>>In daylight a dot of wholesome black >>>>>>quickly drained by the wan patrons? >>>>>>? >>>>>>Like those black drops of profundity >>>>>>sometimes absorbed by the soul >>>>>>? >>>>>>that give us a healthy push: Go! >>>>>>The courage to open our eyes. >>>>>>? >>>>>>? >>>>>>? >>>>>>? >>>>>>--Tomas Transtr?mer >>>>>>(translated by May Swenson, with Leif Sjoberg) >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >>-- >>Anny Ballardini >>http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >>http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >>http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >>http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >>I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! >>Friedrich Nietzsche >> >>? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >>vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >>Giovenale >> >> > > >-- >Anny Ballardini >http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! >Friedrich Nietzsche > >? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >Giovenale > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > >_______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Oct 9 14:21:10 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 14:21:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry in performance, nyc In-Reply-To: <18927827.1318180552291.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <18927827.1318180552291.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <8CE54C75A6EDF22-2FA4-7DC5F@webmail-d126.sysops.aol.com> The print version of the article in Friday's NYT did have a sidebar/box with about 10 venues listed including Poetry Project and Poet's House. Odd they didn't carry over that bit to the online version. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: junction To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sun, Oct 9, 2011 1:15 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poetry in performance, nyc And of course the Poetry Project at St Marks, the most active and by far the most important non-mainstream venue, isn't even mentioned. But hey, it's only been in non-stop operation for 50 years. Also not mentioned is the active Spanish-language poetry scene. Not fair to task Orr for not mentioning many of the bar-coffee house-bookstore venues, I guess, just too many of them. But Poets House surely should be in there. -----Original Message----- From: jforjames at aol.com Sent: Oct 9, 2011 12:00 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry in performance, nyc http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/07/books/poetry-in-performance-in-new-york.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=nuyorican&st=cse If you live in New York, the opportunities to hear poetry abound. Places like the legendary Nuyorican Poets Cafe are going strong, and the city?s Grand Establishments ? notably Dylan Thomas?s old benefactor, the Poetry Center ? bring in the country?s most prominent writers. (And the world?s: Seamus Heaney opened the season there last week.) Meanwhile New York?s tradition of small-scale bar-based readings is ably carried on by series like Mixer on the Lower East Side and Pete?s Candy Store in Williamsburg. _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Oct 9 15:51:27 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 21:51:27 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Kenneth Patchen Message-ID: "I am the world crier, & this is my dangerous career...I am the one to call your bluff, & this is my climate." Kenneth PatchenFrom Jorgensen's Facebook post -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Oct 9 16:02:27 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 22:02:27 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Blumenfeld Message-ID: the photographer: http://tartuffesfolly.posterous.com/erwin-blumenfeld-the-meld-of-fashion-art-phot -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Oct 9 16:18:18 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 16:18:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?another_Transtr=C3=B6mer_poem?= Message-ID: <8CE54D7B7AA59EB-1C50-828C9@webmail-d172.sysops.aol.com> This one is from The Rattle Bag (anthology) edited by S. Heaney and T. Hughes. - Breathing Space July The man who lies on his back under huge trees is also up in them. He branches out into thousands of tiny branches. He sways back and forth, he sits in a catapult chair that hurtles forward in slow motion. The man who stands down at the dock screws up his eyes against the water. Ocean docks get older faster than men. They have silver grey posts and boulders in their gut. The dazzling light drives straight in. The man who spends the whole day in an open boat moving over the luminous bays will fall asleep at last inside the shade of his blue lamp as the islands crawl like huge moths over the globe. Tomas Transtr?mer, translated from the Swedish by Robert Bly. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Sun Oct 9 17:39:06 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Sun, 09 Oct 2011 16:39:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?another_Transtr=F6mer_poem?= In-Reply-To: <8CE54D7B7AA59EB-1C50-828C9@webmail-d172.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE54D7B7AA59EB-1C50-828C9@webmail-d172.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4E92147A.6090503@louisiana.edu> This one's a lot more to my taste. Of course, since Bly translated it, I may never know if it would sound so much like a Bly poem if someone else translated it. (Not that I see anything wrong with translation piracy--if I could do it, I would.) Jerry On 10/9/2011 3:18 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: > This one is from The Rattle Bag (anthology) edited by S. Heaney and T. > Hughes. > - > Breathing Space July > > The man who lies on his back under huge trees > is also up in them. He branches out into thousands of tiny branches. > He sways back and forth, > he sits in a catapult chair that hurtles forward in slow motion. > > The man who stands down at the dock screws up his eyes against the water. > Ocean docks get older faster than men. > They have silver grey posts and boulders in their gut. > The dazzling light drives straight in. > > The man who spends the whole day in an open boat > moving over the luminous bays > will fall asleep at last inside the shade of his blue lamp > as the islands crawl like huge moths over the globe. > Tomas Transtr?mer, translated from the Swedish by Robert Bly. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Oct 9 17:56:46 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 17:56:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?windows-1252?q?Transtr=F6mer=27s_=22Espresso=22?= In-Reply-To: References: <8CE53F60F362809-13E0-6EC3F@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com><4E909FD2.2080908@louisiana.edu><3E0E515A-E972-49FD-9EB8-D3E7ECB5EBF3@ripon.edu><1318147124.90690.YahooMailNeo@web28502.mail.ukl.ya hoo.com><8CE54B196887BA3-1F10-7EB52@webmail-d178.sysops.aol.com><8CE54B2796989A3-1F10-7EC7C@webmail-d178.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <6230FAA4C2144F8BAD94E872B27E9CA9@BobHP> From: Anny Ballardini Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 12:16 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Transtr?mer's "Espresso" There is an Italian saying, to clean on the clean, i.e. translate what has been already translated! that is undoubtedly easier, Goes along with (certified) American critics? modus operandi: critique artists who have already been critiqued. Hey, it goes along with certified poets? m.o., too: compose poems that have already been composed. Which reminds me that that Transtromer poem I just said I liked seemed very familiar. Has it been here before?or was some other poem much like it here in the past year or two? I remember reading something very much like it. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Oct 9 17:49:27 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 17:49:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?another_Transtr=C3=B6mer_poem?= In-Reply-To: <4E92147A.6090503@louisiana.edu> References: <8CE54D7B7AA59EB-1C50-828C9@webmail-d172.sysops.aol.com> <4E92147A.6090503@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <556B36526EFE4F15BBF804D3C8BC04DE@BobHP> From: Jerry McGuire Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 5:39 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] another Transtr?mer poem This one's a lot more to my taste. Of course, since Bly translated it, I may never know if it would sound so much like a Bly poem if someone else translated it. (Not that I see anything wrong with translation piracy--if I could do it, I would.) Jerry It seems much better to me, too?although nothing I?d call world-class. But, gosh, I don?t call Heany?s stuff world-class, either. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Oct 9 18:05:47 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 18:05:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry in performance, nyc In-Reply-To: <18927827.1318180552291.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <18927827.1318180552291.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <8006AE67327D4BC496876FED5D1873DD@BobHP> From: junction at earthlink.net Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 1:15 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poetry in performance, nyc And of course the Poetry Project at St Marks, the most active and by far the most important non-mainstream venue, isn't even mentioned. But hey, it's only been in non-stop operation for 50 years. Also not mentioned is the active Spanish-language poetry scene. Not fair to task Orr for not mentioning many of the bar-coffee house-bookstore venues, I guess, just too many of them. But Poets House surely should be in there. -----Original Message----- From: jforjames at aol.com Sent: Oct 9, 2011 12:00 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry in performance, nyc http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/07/books/poetry-in-performance-in-new-york.html?_r=1&scp=1&sq=nuyorican&st=cse If you live in New York, the opportunities to hear poetry abound. Places like the legendary Nuyorican Poets Cafe are going strong, and the city?s Grand Establishments ? notably Dylan Thomas?s old benefactor, the Poetry Center ? bring in the country?s most prominent writers. (And the world?s: Seamus Heaney opened the season there last week.) Meanwhile New York?s tradition of small-scale bar-based readings is ably carried on by series like Mixer on the Lower East Side and Pete?s Candy Store in Williamsburg. They really blew it: they mentioned the only place in New York I?ve read at (the Bowery Poetry Club)?not one of their featured events, though. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sun Oct 9 18:11:42 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 17:11:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Transtr=C3=B6mer=27s_=22Espresso=22?= In-Reply-To: <6230FAA4C2144F8BAD94E872B27E9CA9@BobHP> References: <8CE53F60F362809-13E0-6EC3F@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> <4E909FD2.2080908@louisiana.edu> <3E0E515A-E972-49FD-9EB8-D3E7ECB5EBF3@ripon.edu> <8CE54B196887BA3-1F10-7EB52@webmail-d178.sysops.aol.com> <8CE54B2796989A3-1F10-7EC7C@webmail-d178.sysops.aol.com> <6230FAA4C2144F8BAD94E872B27E9CA9@BobHP> Message-ID: Sort of like your MO on this list too, B-bob. Same old, same old. Over 'n' over. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 4:56 PM, bob grumman wrote: > > > *From:* Anny Ballardini > *Sent:* Sunday, October 09, 2011 12:16 PM > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Transtr?mer's "Espresso" > > There is an Italian saying, to clean on the clean, > i.e. translate what has been already translated! > > that is undoubtedly easier, > > Goes along with (certified) American critics? modus operandi: critique > artists who have already been critiqued. Hey, it goes along with certified > poets? m.o., too: compose poems that have already been composed. Which > reminds me that that Transtromer poem I just said I liked seemed very > familiar. Has it been here before?or was some other poem much like it here > in the past year or two? I remember reading something very much like it. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Oct 9 19:17:29 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 19:17:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Transtr=C3=B6mer=27s_=22Espresso=22?= In-Reply-To: References: <8CE53F60F362809-13E0-6EC3F@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com><4E909FD2.2080908@louisiana.edu><3E0E515A-E972-49FD-9EB8-D3E7 ECB5EBF3@ripon.edu><8CE54B196887BA3-1F10-7EB52@webmail-d178 .sysops.aol.com><8CE54B2796989A3-1F10-7EC7C@webmail-d178.sysops.aol.com><6230FAA4C2144F8BAD94E872B27E9CA9@BobHP> Message-ID: From: Halvard Johnson Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 6:11 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Transtr?mer's "Espresso" Sort of like your MO on this list too, B-bob. Same old, same old. Over 'n' over. Wrong, Hal?same theme, but infinite variations?like your expressions of intellectual nihilism. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Sun Oct 9 19:26:00 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 16:26:00 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?Transtr=F6mer=27s_=22Espresso=22?= In-Reply-To: References: <8CE53F60F362809-13E0-6EC3F@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> <4E909FD2.2080908@louisiana.edu> <8CE54B2796989A3-1F10-7EC7C@webmail-d178.sysops.aol.com> <6230FAA4C2144F8BAD94E872B27E9CA9@BobHP> Message-ID: You guys sound like an old married uncouple. - Jim On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 4:17 PM, bob grumman wrote: > > > *From:* Halvard Johnson > *Sent:* Sunday, October 09, 2011 6:11 PM > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Transtr?mer's "Espresso" > > Sort of like your MO on this list too, B-bob. Same old, same old. Over 'n' > over. > > Wrong, Hal?same theme, but infinite variations?like your expressions of > intellectual nihilism. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Oct 9 19:37:16 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 19:37:16 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Boilerplate In-Reply-To: <9A05A22E39C742F9BB87D223A68E3A54@BobHP> References: <8CE484E928F5B46-2480-BD2B5@webmail-d145.sysops.aol.com> <9A05A22E39C742F9BB87D223A68E3A54@BobHP> Message-ID: Interesting how no one (but I, very rarely) ever complains about the repetitiveness of the positive boilerplate so frequent at New-Poetry, from probably a dozen different folks, but my negative boilerplate (which I admit is boilerplate and is repetitive, but is also pretty clever at times) draws complaints. --Bob From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Oct 9 19:39:17 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 18:39:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Translators & anthologists In-Reply-To: <8CE54B2796989A3-1F10-7EC7C@webmail-d178.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE53F60F362809-13E0-6EC3F@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com><4E909FD2.2080908@louisiana.edu><3E0E515A-E972-49FD-9EB8-D3E7ECB5EBF3@ripon.edu> <1318147124.90690.YahooMailNeo@web28502.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <8CE54B196887BA3-1F10-7EB52@webmail-d178.sysops.aol.com> <8CE54B2796989A3-1F10-7EC7C@webmail-d178.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Translators are like anthologists, always paying close attention to the competition, for reasons ranging from natural curiosity through competitiveness and quite reasonable marketing concerns. It's not surprising to see the same old poems and poets translated, though it may be disappointing. I remember how eye-opening it was to open that anthology Mark Strand put together with Charles Simic back in the 1970s: *Another Republic: 17 European and South American Writers.* Their simple but brilliant idea was to *not* present Rilke and Neruda yet again, but a range of lesser known writers. (They left out all the Russians entirely, too.) I imagine that book was many folks' first exposure to poets such as Jean Follain, Vasko Popa, Yehuda Amichai, Carlos Drummond de Andrade, and Miroslav Holub. Many anthologies, whether of translated poets or not, overlap largely with what's already out there. So it goes. It can be frustrating for the poets anthologized, too. No poet dreams of being a one-hit wonder. I am by no means a well known poet myself, but I do have one poem that I was fortunate to see picked up by Poetry Daily years ago, and subsequently included in their first print anthology. Since then it's been in about six other anthologies, online or in print, and I am pretty sure that none of those editors ever saw the chapbook in which it appeared. They found it in other anthologies. It's also my only poem, I believe, to be translated. . . . In fact, a couple years back I was asked to submit work for a new anthology and did so; but the editor wrote me eventually to say that he liked my much-anthologized poem (which I had not sent) better than anything I had given him. Oh, well. Of course, maybe it's just such a world-class poem that I can never top it; but I don't think so. . . . ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Oct 9, 2011, at 10:51 AM, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > To finish that thought... > > Are there not hundreds of poets languishing without suitable translations, untranslated or only translated spottily, > with an odd poem published here & there in some journal? Once a poet is translated and garners a bit of an audience, > it seems to be the case that more and more translations will appear without really advancing our appreciation or > understanding of the poet's poetry. > > Finnegan > > -----Original Message----- > From: jforjames > To: new-poetry > Sent: Sun, Oct 9, 2011 11:45 am > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Transtr?mer's "Espresso" > > Thanks for pointing to this article. A host of issues arise in course of that flap over Robertson's translations. > One that isn't brought up enough is why are the same poets translated over and over. If a couple of accomplished > translations are published during a fifty year period wouldn't that be enough. Are there not hundreds of poets > > > Finnegan > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Oct 9 19:52:57 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 19:52:57 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Translators & anthologists Message-ID: <3103299.1318204377487.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun Oct 9 19:55:58 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 19:55:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Submit to Writers' Almanac? Message-ID: <6ec15.62066af1.3bc38e8e@cs.com> In a message dated 10/8/2011 10:34:14 PM Central Daylight Time, david.weinstock at gmail.com writes: > > Oddly enough, I am actually asking for information. > > > I did send them a book years back, and they used one out of it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Oct 9 20:13:45 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 20:13:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Translators & anthologists In-Reply-To: <3103299.1318204377487.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <3103299.1318204377487.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <8CF11E7F928348F9ADF6200A104E6A9F@BobHP> From: junction at earthlink.net Sent: Sunday, October 09, 2011 7:52 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Translators & anthologists Complex subject. Most of the poems I've translated have never been translated before, and many of the poets as well, but I've also translated a lot of poets who have been translated before because I love a particular poem and what I love about it hasn't in my opinion come across in previous versions. I know dozens of poetry translators, and any one of them would say the same. But all of us hope to find a poet who really engages us, is important and known in his or her native context, and is completely unknown in our own. There are a lot of them out there. Tho, to temper this, there are only so many masters, and they do tend to et translated (once discovered by the new culture) more often. For one, they're more fun to translate. Best, Mark You wouldn?t hope to find a poet worth translating who is completely unknown both here and in his native country? Related question: what American poets are most translated? Any surprises? One advantage to being a visual poet is that it?s pretty easy to get your poems published abroad since they generally don?t have to be translated, or only a few of their key words need translation. Of course, the problem is that they are published by the same sort of publications that publish visual poetry here, invisible ones. Except possibly in South America, where visual poetry has much more prestige than it has here. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Oct 9 21:27:41 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 9 Oct 2011 21:27:41 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Translators & anthologists Message-ID: <28223784.1318210061450.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.weinstock at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 00:04:52 2011 From: david.weinstock at gmail.com (David Weinstock) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 00:04:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Submit to Writers' Almanac? In-Reply-To: <6ec15.62066af1.3bc38e8e@cs.com> References: <6ec15.62066af1.3bc38e8e@cs.com> Message-ID: Thank you all, I will pass this information along. On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 7:55 PM, wrote: > In a message dated 10/8/2011 10:34:14 PM Central Daylight Time, > david.weinstock at gmail.com writes: > > > Oddly enough, I am actually asking for information. > > > > I did send them a book years back, and they used one out of it. > _______T________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- DAVID WEINSTOCK *Email: david.weinstock at gmail.com* *Mail: 240 Woodland Park, Middlebury VT 05753 USA* *Blog: www.waitingforhungry.blogspot.com* *Phone: 802-388-6939 * *Cell: 802-989-4314* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 00:25:28 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 06:25:28 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?iso-8859-1?q?Transtr=F6mer=27s_=22Espresso=22?= In-Reply-To: <6230FAA4C2144F8BAD94E872B27E9CA9@BobHP> References: <8CE53F60F362809-13E0-6EC3F@webmail-d147.sysops.aol.com> <4E909FD2.2080908@louisiana.edu> <3E0E515A-E972-49FD-9EB8-D3E7ECB5EBF3@ripon.edu> <8CE54B196887BA3-1F10-7EB52@webmail-d178.sysops.aol.com> <8CE54B2796989A3-1F10-7EC7C@webmail-d178.sysops.aol.com> <6230FAA4C2144F8BAD94E872B27E9CA9@BobHP> Message-ID: Jacques Prevert, Il a mis le cafe' dans la tasse, etc. On Sun, Oct 9, 2011 at 11:56 PM, bob grumman wrote: > > > *From:* Anny Ballardini > *Sent:* Sunday, October 09, 2011 12:16 PM > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Transtr?mer's "Espresso" > > There is an Italian saying, to clean on the clean, > i.e. translate what has been already translated! > > that is undoubtedly easier, > > Goes along with (certified) American critics? modus operandi: critique > artists who have already been critiqued. Hey, it goes along with certified > poets? m.o., too: compose poems that have already been composed. Which > reminds me that that Transtromer poem I just said I liked seemed very > familiar. Has it been here before?or was some other poem much like it here > in the past year or two? I remember reading something very much like it. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Mon Oct 10 13:03:27 2011 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 12:03:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] What makes a poem great? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ------ Forwarded Message From: David Graham Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 11:07:13 -0500 To: "new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu" Conversation: What makes a poem great? Subject: What makes a poem great? David Lehman has the answer, naturally. . . . http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_lehman2.php -- ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== ------ End of Forwarded Message -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Mon Oct 10 13:03:54 2011 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 12:03:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience In-Reply-To: Message-ID: ------ Forwarded Message From: David Graham Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 11:52:33 -0500 To: "new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu" Conversation: Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience Subject: Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience A nice counter-weight to some entrenched conventional wisdom... When our assumptions are showing David Orr serves up a hoary chestnut in today's New York Times as he makes the point that poetry readings can be and often are exciting, if not electrifying. "Poetry is supposed to be dusty stuff, the reading of which can inspire even a hyperactive 4-year-old to go gentle into that good nap." he writes. The reference, of course, is to a famous Dylan Thomas poem about not going "gentle into that good night." My quarrel with this excellent writer is that my experience runs counter to his observation, and his observation seems to me to feed another questionable assumption about poetry, namely that it's not much read. I use the word quarrel with trepidation, because Orr writes about poetry for the Times frequently and I've always welcomed his reporting. http://newsblaze.com/story/20111010070422delm.nb/topstory.html -- ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== ------ End of Forwarded Message -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Oct 10 10:05:38 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 10:05:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Boilerplate: How Many Ideas Does Anyone Have? In-Reply-To: References: <8CE484E928F5B46-2480-BD2B5@webmail-d145.sysops.aol.com> <9A05A22E39C742F9BB87D223A68E3A54@BobHP> Message-ID: <7938EA89C424474F992AC2D8AD78CB7C@BobHP> Yesterday I got to musing about the paucity of real ideas in my boilerplate--and how few I have anywhere. And I repeat them incessantly, yes. But isn't that true of everyone? How many basic ideas can one have about, say, poetry? A choice between making it new and sticking to the tried and trew; the most important element in poetry is X, with maybe ten different possible X's; poetry is Y, with maybe ten different possible definitions; a choice between poetry created by intuition and poetry created by reasoning; poetry should be about subject Z, with maybe ten or fifteen possible general Z's; a poem's tone ought to be W, with a few different possible W's; a choice between poems that make you work to appreciate and poems that don't . . . No doubt a few more, but no more than a dozen or so, I would think. Each individual would have his own package of ideas and make from them a near-infinite set of variations by expressing them in different combinations and words, but rarely saying anything truly new in his life time. Like certain song birds I've heard of that apparently invent a number of songs, then repeat them for the rest of their lives. I definitely believe all the important ideas I have had in my life are few and none genuinely original, although I?ve turned a lot of them into novel arrangements, and found my own idiosyncratic way to express them. I don?t think others have done more. I?m curious how others feel about this. I do know what it?s like to feel like your teeming with ideas, but I feel that in the final analysis you would find all of them minor variations on very few basic ideas. What I?ve been saying here, for instance, can be reduced to the basic idea that understandings of existence can be reduced to a few ultimate major facts the way physicists have reduced it to various sub-atomic particles, an outlook many, of a different temperament than I (including most participants and lurkers at New-Poetry), would disagree, neither side being right since (I believe) no basic idea can be proved or disproved. Which is another basic . . . ideational dichotomy. Okay, I shouldn?t bother New-Poetry with this, but confine it to my blog, but what the heck, maybe there are fans of aimless cocktail-party-level philosophizing here?and what I?ve said is not entirely off-topic. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 13:26:03 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 10:26:03 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] What makes a poem great? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I raced to the last paragraph for THE ANSWER but of course I'd missed it along the way. - Jim On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 10:03 AM, David Graham wrote: > > > ------ Forwarded Message > *From: *David Graham > *Date: *Mon, 10 Oct 2011 11:07:13 -0500 > *To: *"new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu" < > new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > *Conversation: *What makes a poem great? > *Subject: *What makes a poem great? > > David Lehman has the answer, naturally. . . . > > > http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_lehman2.php > > > -- > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Oct 10 13:23:24 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 13:23:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] What makes a poem great? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E65066C73F94F97AF1FFA1F9E916FEC@BobHP> What makes a poem great? From: David Graham Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 1:03 PM To: NewPoetry Subject: [New-Poetry] What makes a poem great? ------ Forwarded Message From: David Graham Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 11:07:13 -0500 To: "wlmailhtml:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu" Conversation: What makes a poem great? Subject: What makes a poem great? David Lehman has the answer, naturally. . . . No, he doesn?t?he just has a bunch of non- and half-answers from other people, and this, which I?m afraid I find?well, just the sort of thing one would expect from someone like Lehman (?comprehensive and inclusive!???good grief) : ?I favor the idea of being as comprehensive and inclusive as possible when surveying the landscape for an enterprise that confers, in the end, an exclusive distinction. The struggle I have annually is not with unsolvable questions of poetic value, the definition of "America," or the use of a superlative. The struggle I have is simply keeping up with the plethora of poems and poets out there begging for a hearing. Much of the mail I get is gratifying. People write that a volume in the series, or a particular poem, had a decisive effect on them. Contributors say they are happy to be included. They call it an honor. They've been reading The Best American Poetry and now their own work is in there. Some of the poems we have featured have become poetry standards. It's nice to think that we played a hand in that or in the stubborn refusal of poetry to lose its power of attraction in a period of information overkill.? Mr. Same Old, Same Old. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 14:27:13 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 13:27:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Boilerplate: How Many Ideas Does Anyone Have? In-Reply-To: <7938EA89C424474F992AC2D8AD78CB7C@BobHP> References: <8CE484E928F5B46-2480-BD2B5@webmail-d145.sysops.aol.com> <9A05A22E39C742F9BB87D223A68E3A54@BobHP> <7938EA89C424474F992AC2D8AD78CB7C@BobHP> Message-ID: Reducing existence to "a few major facts"--now there's nihilism. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 9:05 AM, bob grumman wrote: > Yesterday I got to musing about the paucity of real ideas in my > boilerplate--and how few I have anywhere. And I repeat them incessantly, > yes. But isn't that true of everyone? How many *basic* ideas can one > have about, say, poetry? A choice between making it new and sticking to the > tried and trew; the most important element in poetry is X, with maybe ten > different possible X's; poetry is Y, with maybe ten different possible > definitions; a choice between poetry created by intuition and poetry created > by reasoning; poetry should be about subject Z, with maybe ten or fifteen > possible *general* Z's; a poem's tone ought to be W, with a few different > possible W's; a choice between poems that make you work to appreciate and > poems that don't . . . No doubt a few more, but no more than a dozen or so, > I would think. Each individual would have his own package of ideas and make > from them a near-infinite set of variations by expressing them in different > combinations and words, but rarely saying anything truly new in his life > time. Like certain song birds I've heard of that apparently invent a number > of songs, then repeat them for the rest of their lives. > > I definitely believe all the important ideas I have had in my life are few > and none genuinely original, although I?ve turned a lot of them into novel > arrangements, and found my own idiosyncratic way to express them. I don?t > think others have done more. I?m curious how others feel about this. I do > know what it?s like to feel like your teeming with ideas, but I feel that in > the final analysis you would find all of them minor variations on very few > basic ideas. What I?ve been saying here, for instance, can be reduced to > the basic idea that understandings of existence can be reduced to a few > ultimate major facts the way physicists have reduced it to various > sub-atomic particles, an outlook many, of a different temperament than I > (including most participants and lurkers at New-Poetry), would disagree, > neither side being right since (I believe) no basic idea can be proved or > disproved. Which is another basic . . . ideational dichotomy. > > Okay, I shouldn?t bother New-Poetry with this, but confine it to my blog, > but what the heck, maybe there are fans of aimless cocktail-party-level > philosophizing here?and what I?ve said is *not* entirely off-topic. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 14:28:44 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 13:28:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] What makes a poem great? In-Reply-To: <4E65066C73F94F97AF1FFA1F9E916FEC@BobHP> References: <4E65066C73F94F97AF1FFA1F9E916FEC@BobHP> Message-ID: What B-bob said. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 12:23 PM, bob grumman wrote: > > > *From:* David Graham > *Sent:* Monday, October 10, 2011 1:03 PM > *To:* NewPoetry > *Subject:* [New-Poetry] What makes a poem great? > > > > ------ Forwarded Message > *From: *David Graham > > *Date: *Mon, 10 Oct 2011 11:07:13 -0500 > *To: *"wlmailhtml:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu" < > wlmailhtml:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > > *Conversation: *What makes a poem great? > *Subject: *What makes a poem great? > > David Lehman has the answer, naturally. . . . > > No, he doesn?t?he just has a bunch of non- and half-answers from other > people, and this, which I?m afraid I find?well, just the sort of thing one > would expect from someone like Lehman (?comprehensive and inclusive!???good > grief) : > > ?I favor the idea of being as comprehensive and inclusive as possible when > surveying the landscape for an enterprise that confers, in the end, an > exclusive distinction. The struggle I have annually is not with unsolvable > questions of poetic value, the definition of "America," or the use of a > superlative. The struggle I have is simply keeping up with the plethora of > poems and poets out there begging for a hearing. Much of the mail I get is > gratifying. People write that a volume in the series, or a particular poem, > had a decisive effect on them. Contributors say they are happy to be > included. They call it an honor. They've been reading *The Best American > Poetry* and now their own work is in there. Some of the poems we have > featured have become poetry standards. It's nice to think that we played a > hand in that or in the stubborn refusal of poetry to lose its power of > attraction in a period of information overkill.? > > Mr. Same Old, Same Old. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Mon Oct 10 14:45:03 2011 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 13:45:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Boilerplate: How Many Ideas Does Anyone Have? In-Reply-To: <7938EA89C424474F992AC2D8AD78CB7C@BobHP> Message-ID: I wouldn?t call the polarity below nihilism, but it does illustrate the fallacy of bifurcation quite nicely. In between the extremes of ?making it new? and ?tried and true? is a vast and shifting, even shifty territory, seems to me. As Robert Frost put it, all the fun?s in how you say a thing. On 10/10/11 9:05 AM, "Bob Grumman" wrote: > How many basic ideas can one have about, say, poetry? A choice between making > it new and sticking to the tried and trew; -- ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Oct 10 16:04:40 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 16:04:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Boilerplate: How Many Ideas Does Anyone Have? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Re: Boilerplate: How Many Ideas Does Anyone Have? From: David Graham Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 2:45 PM To: NewPoetry Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Boilerplate: How Many Ideas Does Anyone Have? I wouldn?t call the polarity below nihilism, but it does illustrate the fallacy of bifurcation quite nicely. In between the extremes of ?making it new? and ?tried and true? is a vast and shifting, even shifty territory, seems to me. As Robert Frost put it, all the fun?s in how you say a thing. It may surprise you to know that I realize that this is so?from one point of view, David. But it is also true that there are basically two ways of seeing poetry so far as its innovativeness/uninnovativeness is concerned, my (usual) way and your (it would seem) constant way. I feel you and Hal have not given what I said a fair hearing or thinking. Maybe you can?t. Question: are there only trushes?because there are all kinds of trees and bushes, and some trees are hard to tell from bushes, some bushes hard to tell from trees? --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 16:11:30 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 15:11:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Boilerplate: How Many Ideas Does Anyone Have? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If I may speak for David, I'd say that we both abandoned either/or-ness a long time ago. It's time for you to give it up too. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 3:04 PM, bob grumman wrote: > > > From: David Graham > Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 2:45 PM > To: NewPoetry > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Boilerplate: How Many Ideas Does Anyone Have? > > > I wouldn?t call the polarity below nihilism, but it does illustrate the > fallacy of bifurcation quite nicely. > > In between the extremes of ?making it new? and ?tried and true? is a vast > and shifting, even shifty territory, seems to me. As Robert Frost put it, > all the fun?s in how you say a thing. > > It may surprise you to know that I realize that this is so?from one point > of view, David. But it is also true that there are basically two ways of > seeing poetry so far as its innovativeness/uninnovativeness is concerned, my > (usual) way and your (it would seem) constant way. I feel you and Hal have > not given what I said a fair hearing or thinking. Maybe you can?t. > > Question: are there only trushes?because there are all kinds of trees and > bushes, and some trees are hard to tell from bushes, some bushes hard to > tell from trees? > > --Bob > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Mon Oct 10 16:27:29 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 16:27:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Boilerplate: How Many Ideas Does Anyone Have? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CE55A22A5F5DB9-19D4-5F806@Webmail-d121.sysops.aol.com> Or to invoke Elizabeth Bishop... -- Everything only connected by ?and? and ?and.? ?Elizabeth Bishop, ?Over 2000 Illustrations and a Complete Concordance? -----Original Message----- From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry List Sent: Mon, Oct 10, 2011 4:19 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Boilerplate: How Many Ideas Does Anyone Have? If I may speak for David, I'd say that we both abandoned either/or-ness a long time ago. It's time for you to give it up too. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 3:04 PM, bob grumman wrote: From: David Graham Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 2:45 PM To: NewPoetry Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Boilerplate: How Many Ideas Does Anyone Have? I wouldn?t call the polarity below nihilism, but it does illustrate the fallacy of bifurcation quite nicely. In between the extremes of ?making it new? and ?tried and true? is a vast and shifting, even shifty territory, seems to me. As Robert Frost put it, all the fun?s in how you say a thing. It may surprise you to know that I realize that this is so?from one point of view, David. But it is also true that there are basically two ways of seeing poetry so far as its innovativeness/uninnovativeness is concerned, my (usual) way and your (it would seem) constant way. I feel you and Hal have not given what I said a fair hearing or thinking. Maybe you can?t. Question: are there only trushes?because there are all kinds of trees and bushes, and some trees are hard to tell from bushes, some bushes hard to tell from trees? --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Oct 10 17:15:29 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 17:15:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Boilerplate: How Many Ideas Does Anyone Have? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7CDC0506F26446EC994EC0525B8ED1C6@BobHP> From: Halvard Johnson Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 4:11 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Boilerplate: How Many Ideas Does Anyone Have? If I may speak for David, I'd say that we both abandoned either/or-ness a long time ago. It's time for you to give it up too. Beautiful example of either/or-ness, Hal. If I believe that one can say either black or white, I?m incapable of understanding what gray is. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope_productions at hotmail.com Mon Oct 10 18:27:42 2011 From: elemenope_productions at hotmail.com (R Dillon) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 22:27:42 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] What makes a poem great? In-Reply-To: References: , <4E65066C73F94F97AF1FFA1F9E916FEC@BobHP>, Message-ID: What makes a poem great is the ?! factor. Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 13:28:44 -0500 From: halvard at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] What makes a poem great? What B-bob said. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.orghttp://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 12:23 PM, bob grumman wrote: From: David Graham Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 1:03 PM To: NewPoetry Subject: [New-Poetry] What makes a poem great? ------ Forwarded Message From: David Graham Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 11:07:13 -0500 To: "wlmailhtml:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu" Conversation: What makes a poem great? Subject: What makes a poem great? David Lehman has the answer, naturally. . . . No, he doesn?t?he just has a bunch of non- and half-answers from other people, and this, which I?m afraid I find?well, just the sort of thing one would expect from someone like Lehman (?comprehensive and inclusive!???good grief) : ?I favor the idea of being as comprehensive and inclusive as possible when surveying the landscape for an enterprise that confers, in the end, an exclusive distinction. The struggle I have annually is not with unsolvable questions of poetic value, the definition of "America," or the use of a superlative. The struggle I have is simply keeping up with the plethora of poems and poets out there begging for a hearing. Much of the mail I get is gratifying. People write that a volume in the series, or a particular poem, had a decisive effect on them. Contributors say they are happy to be included. They call it an honor. They've been reading The Best American Poetry and now their own work is in there. Some of the poems we have featured have become poetry standards. It's nice to think that we played a hand in that or in the stubborn refusal of poetry to lose its power of attraction in a period of information overkill.? Mr. Same Old, Same Old. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Mon Oct 10 20:43:44 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 20:43:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CE55C5F6DAB8FE-23A4-86460@Webmail-m115.sysops.aol.com> I'm perhaps a bad case study, because I'm perhaps a head case when it comes to poetry, but I'm the proto-type of the heterodox poetry lover. I go to at least 2 poetry readings per month on average. I run a reading series. I run another literary arts org. I subscribe to a number of journals. I buy more books than I can read (fortunately have the means to do so). Etc. This is not to stretch my arm till hurts so I can pat myself on the back... However, I often attend readings and other events and I look around I wonder where are the other like-minded lovers of this art? The MFA in Creative Writing phenomenon/boom has got to be 20 years old at this point. Why are 9/10ths of the people in a relatively small audience at a college/university, at a free event with ample parking and/or access to mass transit, students or faculty who have to be there in some way? Why are there so many local poets who only seem to show up for events in which they're reading? Or they show up only for their friends or particular coterie? Often I find I'm the only one, or one of only two or three people, who buys a book at the poet's reading. Maybe everyone else at the reading had the book already...but I doubt it. Just saying, just ranting... Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry Sent: Mon, Oct 10, 2011 1:04 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience ------ Forwarded Message From: David Graham Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 11:52:33 -0500 To: "new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu" Conversation: Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience Subject: Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience A nice counter-weight to some entrenched conventional wisdom... When our assumptions are showing David Orr serves up a hoary chestnut in today's New York Times as he makes the point that poetry readings can be and often are exciting, if not electrifying. "Poetry is supposed to be dusty stuff, the reading of which can inspire even a hyperactive 4-year-old to go gentle into that good nap." he writes. The reference, of course, is to a famous Dylan Thomas poem about not going "gentle into that good night." My quarrel with this excellent writer is that my experience runs counter to his observation, and his observation seems to me to feed another questionable assumption about poetry, namely that it's not much read. I use the word quarrel with trepidation, because Orr writes about poetry for the Times frequently and I've always welcomed his reporting. http://newsblaze.com/story/20111010070422delm.nb/topstory.html -- ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== ------ End of Forwarded Message _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Mon Oct 10 21:48:49 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 21:48:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetics of Boris Slutsky Message-ID: <8CE55CF0CD2544A-14A4-98435@webmail-m128.sysops.aol.com> ?I am to be read not from left to right, but in Jewish: from right to left?: The Poetics of Boris Slutsky. By Marat Grinberg Academic Studies Press, 400 pages, $65 In the poem ?Dream,? Boris Slutsky laconically summed up two defining facts of his generation: ?Nineteen is the year of birth, age twenty-two in year forty-one.? Best known in Russia as a poet of the Second World War, Slutsky belonged to the first ? and last ? generation of writers whose lives were spent completely under Communist rule. Like most members of that generation, the war split his life in two Read more: http://www.forward.com/articles/143708/#ixzz1aQwsZZkf -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From millb at aol.com Mon Oct 10 22:17:53 2011 From: millb at aol.com (Millicent Borges Accardi) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 22:17:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience In-Reply-To: <8CE55C5F6DAB8FE-23A4-86460@Webmail-m115.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE55C5F6DAB8FE-23A4-86460@Webmail-m115.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CE55D31DAF298E-1288-9AD67@webmail-m166.sysops.aol.com> Finnegan, I think perhaps there are more "writers" and fewer "readers." The same is true for other areas of the arts and society as well. Look at the number of "reality" shows and You Tube sensations versus traditional shows written by teams of writers. I can remember not that long ago attending book signings and readings where the audience was filled with readers and students and admiring faculty or peers. Folks lined up after, clutching books in sweaty palms to get an autograph. These days the readings I attend are filled with those reading and those hoping for their 3 minutes of open microphone. It's rare to find an "actual" audience. Everyone seems to have an agenda and to be promoting a book. Is it good? Is it bad? Maybe too soon to tell. Surely participation and interaction is better than idle watching, but one wonders where the readers, the thoughtful readers went. Kids who play little league still watch and learn from professional baseball players. It does not seem to apply to writers. I can tell you the number one question people ask me after a reading: how can I get published? Perhaps rock bands get this too? As far as book sales. There was a long period where poetry books were not carried in chain bookstores and pre-Amazon. In those days,unless you knew about Spring Church or frequented an indie bookstore, it was difficult to find poetry books. Hence, people bought books at book fairs and readings, as their primary source for poetry. Now, it is not unusual for a book launch where no books are sold. Because everyone who was going to buy a copy got it online. Good? Bad? progress? Too soon to tell. I think we are surely selling more books online. Before Amazon I think I would have sold maybe ten copies of my latest book to my relatives and that would have been it. Now, I can reach friends and acquaintances online thru social networks, etc. Folks can read samples online as well as reviews. It is quite possible that a decent poetry book that would have sold 40 copies in 1990 now could sell 200-300 just because of networking. Mill Help me get to 600 by Halloween. Click here to "like" my FB page. Thanks! -----Original Message----- From: jforjames To: new-poetry Sent: Tue, Oct 11, 2011 2:43 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience I'm perhaps a bad case study, because I'm perhaps a head case when it comes to poetry, but I'm the proto-type of the heterodox poetry lover. I go to at least 2 poetry readings per month on average. I run a reading series. I run another literary arts org. I subscribe to a number of journals. I buy more books than I can read (fortunately have the means to do so). Etc. This is not to stretch my arm till hurts so I can pat myself on the back... However, I often attend readings and other events and I look around I wonder where are the other like-minded lovers of this art? The MFA in Creative Writing phenomenon/boom has got to be 20 years old at this point. Why are 9/10ths of the people in a relatively small audience at a college/university, at a free event with ample parking and/or access to mass transit, students or faculty who have to be there in some way? Why are there so many local poets who only seem to show up for events in which they're reading? Or they show up only for their friends or particular coterie? Often I find I'm the only one, or one of only two or three people, who buys a book at the poet's reading. Maybe everyone else at the reading had the book already...but I doubt it. Just saying, just ranting... Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry Sent: Mon, Oct 10, 2011 1:04 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience ------ Forwarded Message From: David Graham Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 11:52:33 -0500 To: "new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu" Conversation: Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience Subject: Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience A nice counter-weight to some entrenched conventional wisdom... When our assumptions are showing David Orr serves up a hoary chestnut in today's New York Times as he makes the point that poetry readings can be and often are exciting, if not electrifying. "Poetry is supposed to be dusty stuff, the reading of which can inspire even a hyperactive 4-year-old to go gentle into that good nap." he writes. The reference, of course, is to a famous Dylan Thomas poem about not going "gentle into that good night." My quarrel with this excellent writer is that my experience runs counter to his observation, and his observation seems to me to feed another questionable assumption about poetry, namely that it's not much read. I use the word quarrel with trepidation, because Orr writes about poetry for the Times frequently and I've always welcomed his reporting. http://newsblaze.com/story/20111010070422delm.nb/topstory.html -- ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== ------ End of Forwarded Message _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Mon Oct 10 22:23:52 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 19:23:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience In-Reply-To: <8CE55C5F6DAB8FE-23A4-86460@Webmail-m115.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE55C5F6DAB8FE-23A4-86460@Webmail-m115.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1318299832.71327.YahooMailNeo@web120524.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> It's funny, James, we live near to each other yet have different experiences with poetry readings.? Before the baby, I used to go to 2 to 4 poetry readings a month, but most were in non-university settings--coffee houses, the back rooms and basements of libraries, random empty spaces, etc. ? (By the way, in these settings, there were rarely any students.)? What I noticed is that in different areas of the state there are core groups of poets who attend the local events.? Go to a reading on Monday, see 20 people.? Go to another reading on Thursday or Saturday, see 16 people, half of which were at Monday's reading.? It's as if there are 30 to 40 people that cycle around to the readings, some fairly regular attendees, others not so much, but I rarely see someone I've not seen before. The reason why most of them go?? To read their own poetry.? At readings, I have met only a few people who go only to listen, who do not write and read their own work.? (Whereas I know many people who attend concerts yet do not play music, or who go to museums yet do not paint or draw.)? And readings that have no open mike are much more sparsely attended. Also, in another bad sign for poetry, with the local Borders gone, my local Barnes and Nobel is remodeling.? They've reduced the poetry section to a single column of shelves.? It now stands, with Wedding and Etiquette on the opposite side, as twin buttresses leading to the toilets. John >________________________________ >From: "jforjames at aol.com" >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Sent: Monday, October 10, 2011 8:43 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience > > >I'm perhaps a bad case study, because I'm perhaps a head case when it comes?to poetry,?but I'm the proto-type of the heterodox poetry lover. I go to at least 2 poetry readings per month on average. I run a reading series.?I run another literary arts org. I subscribe to a number of journals.?I buy more books than I can read (fortunately have the means to do so). Etc. > >This is not to stretch my arm till hurts so I can pat myself on the back... >? >However, I often attend readings and other events and I look around I wonder where are the other like-minded lovers of this art? The MFA in Creative Writing phenomenon/boom?has got to be 20 years old at this point. Why are 9/10ths of the people in a relatively?small audience at a college/university, at a free event with ample parking and/or access to mass transit, students or faculty who have to be there in some way? Why are there so many local poets who only seem to show up for events in which they're reading? Or they show up only for their friends or particular coterie? Often I find I'm?the only one, or one?of only two or three people, who buys a?book at the poet's?reading. Maybe everyone else at the reading had the book already...but I doubt it. >? >Just saying, just ranting... > >Finnegan >? >-----Original Message----- >From: David Graham >To: NewPoetry >Sent: Mon, Oct 10, 2011 1:04 pm >Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience > > > >------ Forwarded Message >From: David Graham >Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 11:52:33 -0500 >To: "new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu" >Conversation: Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience >Subject: Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience > >A nice counter-weight to some entrenched conventional wisdom... > >When our assumptions are showing > >David Orr serves up a hoary chestnut in today'sNew York Times as he makes the point that poetry readings can be and often are exciting, if not electrifying. > >"Poetry is supposed to be dusty stuff, the reading of which can inspire even a hyperactive 4-year-old to go gentle into that good nap." he writes. The reference, of course, is to a famous Dylan Thomas poem about not going "gentle into that good night." > >My quarrel with this excellent writer is that my experience runs counter to his observation, and his observation seems to me to feed another questionable assumption about poetry, namely that it's not much read. I use the word quarrel with trepidation, because Orr writes about poetry for the Times frequently and I've always welcomed his reporting. > > >http://newsblaze.com/story/20111010070422delm.nb/topstory.html >-- > >======================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu > >Home Page: >http://web.me.com/drjazz > >Poetry Library: >http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >========================================== > > >------ End of Forwarded Message > >_______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Mon Oct 10 23:45:24 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 22:45:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience In-Reply-To: <1318299832.71327.YahooMailNeo@web120524.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <8CE55C5F6DAB8FE-23A4-86460@Webmail-m115.sysops.aol.com> <1318299832.71327.YahooMailNeo@web120524.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Type "poetry" into a Google search box and it shows 309,000,000 "results" in 0.32 seconds. Type in "good poetry" and it shows 136,000,000 in 0.31 seconds. "Bad poetry" yields 8,170,000 results in 0.55 seconds. Of course, you're searching for those words or phrases, and your own mileage may vary. I suspect that many of those missing readers/listeners/buyers may be home reading poems, listening to poems, even buying books of poems from Amazon or B&N or SPD or BlazeVox or even downloading free books from the likes of yours truly. You can get (or once could) a very large audience for T.S. Eliot at a field house in Minneapolis or for Yevtushenko in some football stadium in the USSR. Nowadays you can't fill every seat for a concert or an opera or even for a baseball game by an A-level team. Movies? I'd rather watch them at home with my wife than in a theater with a scattering of people or even a full house (esp. not the latter). Poems I'd rather read for myself, by myself, not in some social arena. When poetry was an oral (as in read out aloud) sort of craft, it was so largely because most folks couldn't read. Just saying. Just ranting. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 9:23 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: > It's funny, James, we live near to each other yet have different > experiences with poetry readings. Before the baby, I used to go to 2 to 4 > poetry readings a month, but most were in non-university settings--coffee > houses, the back rooms and basements of libraries, random empty spaces, etc. > (By the way, in these settings, there were rarely any students.) > > What I noticed is that in different areas of the state there are core > groups of poets who attend the local events. Go to a reading on Monday, see > 20 people. Go to another reading on Thursday or Saturday, see 16 people, > half of which were at Monday's reading. It's as if there are 30 to 40 > people that cycle around to the readings, some fairly regular attendees, > others not so much, but I rarely see someone I've not seen before. > > The reason why most of them go? To read their own poetry. At readings, I > have met only a few people who go only to listen, who do not write and read > their own work. (Whereas I know many people who attend concerts yet do not > play music, or who go to museums yet do not paint or draw.) And readings > that have no open mike are much more sparsely attended. > > Also, in another bad sign for poetry, with the local Borders gone, my local > Barnes and Nobel is remodeling. They've reduced the poetry section to a > single column of shelves. It now stands, with Wedding and Etiquette on the > opposite side, as twin buttresses leading to the toilets. > > John > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* "jforjames at aol.com" > *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > *Sent:* Monday, October 10, 2011 8:43 PM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small > audience > > I'm perhaps a bad case study, because I'm perhaps a head case when it > comes to poetry, but I'm the proto-type of the heterodox poetry lover. I go > to at least 2 poetry readings per month on average. I run a reading > series. I run another literary arts org. I subscribe to a number of > journals. I buy more books than I can read (fortunately have the means to do > so). Etc. > > This is not to stretch my arm till hurts so I can pat myself on the back... > > > However, I often attend readings and other events and I look around I > wonder where are the other like-minded lovers of this art? The MFA in > Creative Writing phenomenon/boom has got to be 20 years old at this point. > Why are 9/10ths of the people in a relatively small audience at a > college/university, at a free event with ample parking and/or access to mass > transit, students or faculty who have to be there in some way? Why are there > so many local poets who only seem to show up for events in which they're > reading? Or they show up only for their friends or particular coterie? Often > I find I'm the only one, or one of only two or three people, who buys a book > at the poet's reading. Maybe everyone else at the reading had the book > already...but I doubt it. > > Just saying, just ranting... > > Finnegan > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Graham > To: NewPoetry > Sent: Mon, Oct 10, 2011 1:04 pm > Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience > > > ------ Forwarded Message > *From: *David Graham > *Date: *Mon, 10 Oct 2011 11:52:33 -0500 > *To: *"new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu" < > new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > *Conversation: *Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience > *Subject: *Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience > > A nice counter-weight to some entrenched conventional wisdom... > > When our assumptions are showing > > David Orr serves up a hoary chestnut in today's* New York Times* as he > makes the point that poetry readings can be and often are exciting, if not > electrifying. > > "Poetry is supposed to be dusty stuff, the reading of which can inspire > even a hyperactive 4-year-old to go gentle into that good nap." he writes. > The reference, of course, is to a famous Dylan Thomas poem about not going > "gentle into that good night." > > My quarrel with this excellent writer is that my experience runs counter to > his observation, and his observation seems to me to feed another > questionable assumption about poetry, namely that it's not much read. I use > the word quarrel with trepidation, because Orr writes about poetry for the > Times frequently and I've always welcomed his reporting. > > > http://newsblaze.com/story/20111010070422delm.nb/topstory.html > -- > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Tue Oct 11 10:37:28 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 10:37:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] judging the Forward Prize Message-ID: <8CE563A6F4F8BD5-1808-A0C17@webmail-d131.sysops.aol.com> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/poetryandplaybookreviews/8811845/Judging-the-Forward-Prize.html This week I had the pleasure of giving ?10,000 to someone for writing a book of poems. It might not seem an extraordinary amount, but in the under-rewarded world of poetry, it is significant recognition. The money was for the Forward Prize for best new poetry collection, awarded on Wednesday to John Burnside for Black Cat Bone. Burnside, who was born in Dunfermline in 1955, has written two brilliant memoirs: A Lie About My Father and Waking Up in Toytown as well as novels. But he has always been a poet first, and his winning book has a tremendous lyric force. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cvoisine at nmsu.edu Tue Oct 11 10:42:53 2011 From: cvoisine at nmsu.edu (Connie Voisine) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 08:42:53 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience In-Reply-To: <8CE55C5F6DAB8FE-23A4-86460@Webmail-m115.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE55C5F6DAB8FE-23A4-86460@Webmail-m115.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: dear all-- i run a series in back-desert new mexico and we have readers come about every other week during the school year. we regularly have 100 people at our readings, coming to hear poetry! i know it's nice being the only show in town, but there's always tv, right? at a benefit reading (for hunger) this weekend, we had 240 people listening to readers from the new disability poetry anthology "Beauty is a Verb" (Sheila Black, Jim Ferris, Kara Dorris, and Jennifer Bartlett) and Juliana Spahr. Who says poetry is dying? let me at 'em! connie On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 6:43 PM, wrote: > I'm perhaps a bad case study, because I'm perhaps a head case when it > comes?to poetry,?but I'm the proto-type of the heterodox poetry lover. I go > to at least 2 poetry readings per month on average. I run a reading > series.?I run another literary arts org. I subscribe to a number of > journals.?I buy more books than I can read (fortunately have the means to do > so). Etc. > > This is not to stretch my arm till hurts so I can pat myself on the back... > > However, I often attend readings and other events and I look around I wonder > where are the other like-minded lovers of this art? The MFA in Creative > Writing phenomenon/boom?has got to be 20 years old at this point. Why are > 9/10ths of the people in a relatively?small audience at a > college/university, at a free event with ample parking and/or access to mass > transit, students or faculty who have to be there in some way? Why are there > so many local poets who only seem to show up for events in which they're > reading? Or they show up only for their friends or particular coterie? Often > I find I'm?the only one, or one?of only two or three people, who buys a?book > at the poet's?reading. Maybe everyone else at the reading had the book > already...but I doubt it. > > Just saying, just ranting... > Finnegan > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Graham > To: NewPoetry > Sent: Mon, Oct 10, 2011 1:04 pm > Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience > > > ------ Forwarded Message > From: David Graham > Date: Mon, 10 Oct 2011 11:52:33 -0500 > To: "new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu" > > Conversation: Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience > Subject: Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience > > A nice counter-weight to some entrenched conventional wisdom... > > When our assumptions are showing > > David Orr serves up a hoary chestnut in today's New York Times as he makes > the point that poetry readings can be and often are exciting, if not > electrifying. > > "Poetry is supposed to be dusty stuff, the reading of which can inspire even > a hyperactive 4-year-old to go gentle into that good nap." he writes. The > reference, of course, is to a famous Dylan Thomas poem about not going > "gentle into that good night." > > My quarrel with this excellent writer is that my experience runs counter to > his observation, and his observation seems to me to feed another > questionable assumption about poetry, namely that it's not much read. I use > the word quarrel with trepidation, because Orr writes about poetry for the > Times frequently and I've always welcomed his reporting. > > > http://newsblaze.com/story/20111010070422delm.nb/topstory.html > -- > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > ------ End of Forwarded Message > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Connie Voisine Associate Professor of English New Mexico State University cvoisine at nmsu.edu 575-646-2027 From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Oct 11 11:12:49 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 11:12:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience In-Reply-To: References: <8CE55C5F6DAB8FE-23A4-86460@Webmail-m115.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <33534E4CA92A4F938DAEF4223F60D85B@BobHP> Poetry -----Original Message----- From: Connie Voisine Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:42 AM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience dear all-- i run a series in back-desert new mexico and we have readers come about every other week during the school year. we regularly have 100 people at our readings, coming to hear poetry! i know it's nice being the only show in town, but there's always tv, right? at a benefit reading (for hunger) this weekend, we had 240 people listening to readers from the new disability poetry anthology "Beauty is a Verb" (Sheila Black, Jim Ferris, Kara Dorris, and Jennifer Bartlett) and Juliana Spahr. Who says poetry is dying? let me at 'em! connie Sorry, Connie, but being about the only participant at New-Poetry who looks at things analytically, I have to wonder what drew your 240, the poetry or the feel-goodness of doing something for hunger. Aside from that, a single event or lots of events at a single location can't tell us much. Each event needs analysis. I fear I will always remain convinced that serious poetry, like serious mathematics, will never interest more than the few, for very similar reasons. Cheating, by referring to a single fact, I would advance as evidence my local Books-a-Million, which has lots of books and is quite nice, in my community of around 50,000 (I think): it has one shelf of poetry collections holding about a fifth as many books as the stack of the latest best-selling novel in the front of the store, and not looking to me like there's much turn-over of its when I return to it on my occasional visits. The store also has over a hundred different magazines for sale. I do think Poetry is one of them, but they stock only two or three copies of each issue. And Poetry?s poetry is about as low in seriousness as poetry can drop and still be called serious. A better fact is how little space periodicals of any circulation devote to poetry. My community does have two or three poetry readings a month, but they are mostly social gatherings, and rarely draw more than twenty people, most of them poets, but very few of them serious poets, even by the standards of New-Poetry?doggerelists and Hallmarkers. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cvoisine at nmsu.edu Tue Oct 11 11:35:48 2011 From: cvoisine at nmsu.edu (Connie Voisine) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 09:35:48 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience In-Reply-To: <33534E4CA92A4F938DAEF4223F60D85B@BobHP> References: <8CE55C5F6DAB8FE-23A4-86460@Webmail-m115.sysops.aol.com> <33534E4CA92A4F938DAEF4223F60D85B@BobHP> Message-ID: Bob-- i like to think of poetry in terms of the language of food activists. it's a "locovore" culture, meaning that books are hand sold--i don't think most poetry books are bought by people who haven't met the writer and/or heard them read. rather than resenting that idea, i embrace it. i like the idea that poems move from person to person with human bodies doing that lovely labor. why do i enjoy this model? it's not corporate, not one bit, and the models of productivity don't (and therefore shouldn't) apply. i never entered into poetry thinking about fame or wealth but more about the great life it's given me and that i can, as a writer and teacher, participate in. without it i and a bunch of other people would have been quite sad and i certainly would not have the life i have today. maybe the 240 people came to feel better about the hunger situation in our community, but it was a magical night during which i had a lot of conversations about poetry. with a chemist from my university, with a number of young writers, with the foodbank director, etc. the next day, i had a wonderful breakfast with the writers where we talked about conceptions of disability and the role of art, the problems with institutialization of art, and what writers we liked to read. i can't be cynical about any of that. i am not a pollyanna, not even close. however, i will not use terms such as doggerel except in private (a girl has her own tastes and preferences). poetry is a cultural practice and by prioritizing that, i feel poetry will stay very much alive. it's living in a small town called las cruces in the desert in new mexico. connie On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 9:12 AM, bob grumman wrote: > Poetry > > -----Original Message----- > From: Connie Voisine > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:42 AM > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small > audience > > dear all-- > > i run a series in back-desert new mexico and we have readers come > about every other week during the school year. we regularly have 100 > people at our readings, coming to hear poetry! i know it's nice being > the only show in town, but there's always tv, right? at a benefit > reading (for hunger) this weekend, we had 240 people listening to > readers from the new disability poetry anthology "Beauty is a Verb" > (Sheila Black, Jim Ferris, Kara Dorris, and Jennifer Bartlett) and > Juliana Spahr. Who says poetry is dying? let me at 'em! > > connie > > Sorry, Connie, but being about the only participant at New-Poetry who looks > at things analytically, I have to wonder what drew your 240, the poetry or > the feel-goodness of doing something for hunger.? Aside from that, a single > event or lots of events at a single location can't tell us much.? Each event > needs analysis.? I fear I will always remain convinced that serious poetry, > like serious mathematics, will never interest more than the few, for very > similar reasons.? Cheating, by referring to a single fact, I would advance > as evidence my local Books-a-Million, which has lots of books and is quite > nice, in my community of around 50,000 (I think): it has one shelf of poetry > collections holding about a fifth as many books as the stack of the latest > best-selling novel in the front of the store, and not looking to me like > there's much turn-over of its when I return to it on my occasional visits. > The store also has over a hundred different magazines for sale.? I do think > Poetry is one of them, but they stock only two or three copies of each > issue.? And Poetry?s poetry is about as low in seriousness as poetry can > drop and still be called serious.? A better fact is how little space > periodicals of any circulation devote to poetry.? My community does have two > or three poetry readings a month, but they are mostly social gatherings, and > rarely draw more than twenty people, most of them poets, but very few of > them serious poets, even by the standards of New-Poetry?doggerelists and > Hallmarkers. > > --Bob > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Connie Voisine Associate Professor of English New Mexico State University cvoisine at nmsu.edu 575-646-2027 From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 12:42:21 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 18:42:21 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: TV Poetry by Vernon Frazer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >From Vernon Frazer Here's my latest poetry collection. Some of the pieces have appeared in *Epidermis, >From East to West, Golden Handcuffs Review, LIES/ISLE,**New Mystics, Otoliths, The New Post-Literate, Reconfigurations,* *Specs, Turntable and Blue Light, and Vibrant Gray* http://www.scribd.com/doc/67746068/TV-POETRY -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Oct 11 12:36:27 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 18:36:27 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] low brow press Message-ID: http://www.lowbrowpress.com/ -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Oct 11 18:09:04 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 18:09:04 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience Message-ID: <11397683.1318370944941.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Small university town within easy drive of larger places that offer very little in the way of poetry readings, which may be why you're getting bigger crowds than most events at the high-profile Tucson or Bisbee poetry festivals. I lived in a part of Massachusetts where the local auction houses drew big crowds every week, though very few people actually bid. In winter there's not much to do and the roads to elsewhere are a pain in the ass. So auctions were both theater and social life. Doggerel doesn't just mean bad, by the way. There are some wonderful comic poems written intentionally in doggerel. The locus classicus is probably Hudibras. Best, Mark -----Original Message----- >From: Connie Voisine >Sent: Oct 11, 2011 11:35 AM >To: NewPoetry List >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience > >Bob-- > >i like to think of poetry in terms of the language of food activists. >it's a "locovore" culture, meaning that books are hand sold--i don't >think most poetry books are bought by people who haven't met the >writer and/or heard them read. rather than resenting that idea, i >embrace it. i like the idea that poems move from person to person with >human bodies doing that lovely labor. > >why do i enjoy this model? it's not corporate, not one bit, and the >models of productivity don't (and therefore shouldn't) apply. i never >entered into poetry thinking about fame or wealth but more about the >great life it's given me and that i can, as a writer and teacher, >participate in. without it i and a bunch of other people would have >been quite sad and i certainly would not have the life i have today. >maybe the 240 people came to feel better about the hunger situation in >our community, but it was a magical night during which i had a lot of >conversations about poetry. with a chemist from my university, with a >number of young writers, with the foodbank director, etc. the next >day, i had a wonderful breakfast with the writers where we talked >about conceptions of disability and the role of art, the problems with >institutialization of art, and what writers we liked to read. i can't >be cynical about any of that. > >i am not a pollyanna, not even close. however, i will not use terms >such as doggerel except in private (a girl has her own tastes and >preferences). poetry is a cultural practice and by prioritizing that, >i feel poetry will stay very much alive. it's living in a small town >called las cruces in the desert in new mexico. > >connie > >On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 9:12 AM, bob grumman wrote: >> Poetry >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Connie Voisine >> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:42 AM >> To: NewPoetry List >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small >> audience >> >> dear all-- >> >> i run a series in back-desert new mexico and we have readers come >> about every other week during the school year. we regularly have 100 >> people at our readings, coming to hear poetry! i know it's nice being >> the only show in town, but there's always tv, right? at a benefit >> reading (for hunger) this weekend, we had 240 people listening to >> readers from the new disability poetry anthology "Beauty is a Verb" >> (Sheila Black, Jim Ferris, Kara Dorris, and Jennifer Bartlett) and >> Juliana Spahr. Who says poetry is dying? let me at 'em! >> >> connie >> >> Sorry, Connie, but being about the only participant at New-Poetry who looks >> at things analytically, I have to wonder what drew your 240, the poetry or >> the feel-goodness of doing something for hunger.? Aside from that, a single >> event or lots of events at a single location can't tell us much.? Each event >> needs analysis.? I fear I will always remain convinced that serious poetry, >> like serious mathematics, will never interest more than the few, for very >> similar reasons.? Cheating, by referring to a single fact, I would advance >> as evidence my local Books-a-Million, which has lots of books and is quite >> nice, in my community of around 50,000 (I think): it has one shelf of poetry >> collections holding about a fifth as many books as the stack of the latest >> best-selling novel in the front of the store, and not looking to me like >> there's much turn-over of its when I return to it on my occasional visits. >> The store also has over a hundred different magazines for sale.? I do think >> Poetry is one of them, but they stock only two or three copies of each >> issue.? And Poetry?s poetry is about as low in seriousness as poetry can >> drop and still be called serious.? A better fact is how little space >> periodicals of any circulation devote to poetry.? My community does have two >> or three poetry readings a month, but they are mostly social gatherings, and >> rarely draw more than twenty people, most of them poets, but very few of >> them serious poets, even by the standards of New-Poetry?doggerelists and >> Hallmarkers. >> >> --Bob >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > >-- >Connie Voisine >Associate Professor of English >New Mexico State University >cvoisine at nmsu.edu >575-646-2027 >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From cvoisine at nmsu.edu Tue Oct 11 19:01:41 2011 From: cvoisine at nmsu.edu (Connie Voisine) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 17:01:41 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience In-Reply-To: <11397683.1318370944941.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <11397683.1318370944941.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: it could also be that we have many people in our community who consider themselves writers whether or not they've been verified by academia or traditional publication. why so many? i think it's because of the stellar outreach efforts over the past 45 years by the following local writers: joe somoza, robert boswell, antonya nelson, keith wilson, denise chavez and kevin mcilvoy. they have been consistent in offering people access to writing through community workshops (in people's homes, at a senior center, etc.), the reading series that i inherited (which features visiting writer receptions in people's houses after readings that anyone can attend and they do), and a wonderful regional Border Book Festival, chavez's baby and she gets everyone involved, believe me. and it's all free.it does help to be the only show in town on a friday night, but still i think a climate has been created by the people i named above. anyone who comes to read here is very happy with the experience. connie ps. doggerel, i know, is a form, but it is often used to indicate a hierarchy in poetry. On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 4:09 PM, wrote: > Small university town within easy drive of larger places that offer very little in the way of poetry readings, which may be why you're getting bigger crowds than most events at the high-profile Tucson or Bisbee poetry festivals. > > I lived in a part of Massachusetts where the local auction houses drew big crowds every week, though very few people actually bid. In winter there's not much to do and the roads to elsewhere are a pain in the ass. So auctions were both theater and social life. > > Doggerel doesn't just mean bad, by the way. There are some wonderful comic poems written intentionally in doggerel. The locus classicus is probably Hudibras. > > Best, > > Mark > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Connie Voisine >>Sent: Oct 11, 2011 11:35 AM >>To: NewPoetry List >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has ? ? ? smallaudience >> >>Bob-- >> >>i like to think of poetry in terms of the language of food activists. >>it's a "locovore" culture, meaning that books are hand sold--i don't >>think most poetry books are bought by people who haven't met the >>writer and/or heard them read. rather than resenting that idea, i >>embrace it. i like the idea that poems move from person to person with >>human bodies doing that lovely labor. >> >>why do i enjoy this model? it's not corporate, not one bit, and the >>models of productivity don't (and therefore shouldn't) apply. i never >>entered into poetry thinking about fame or wealth but more about the >>great life it's given me and that i can, as a writer and teacher, >>participate in. without it i and a bunch of other people would have >>been quite sad and i certainly would not have the life i have today. >>maybe the 240 people came to feel better about the hunger situation in >>our community, but it was a magical night during which i had a lot of >>conversations about poetry. with a chemist from my university, with a >>number of young writers, with the foodbank director, etc. the next >>day, i had a wonderful breakfast with the writers where we talked >>about conceptions of disability and the role of art, the problems with >>institutialization of art, and what writers we liked to read. i can't >>be cynical about any of that. >> >>i am not a pollyanna, not even close. however, ?i will not use terms >>such as doggerel except in private (a girl has her own tastes and >>preferences). poetry is a cultural practice and by prioritizing that, >>i feel poetry will stay very much alive. it's living in a small town >>called las cruces in the desert in new mexico. >> >>connie >> >>On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 9:12 AM, bob grumman wrote: >>> Poetry >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Connie Voisine >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:42 AM >>> To: NewPoetry List >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small >>> audience >>> >>> dear all-- >>> >>> i run a series in back-desert new mexico and we have readers come >>> about every other week during the school year. we regularly have 100 >>> people at our readings, coming to hear poetry! i know it's nice being >>> the only show in town, but there's always tv, right? at a benefit >>> reading (for hunger) this weekend, we had 240 people listening to >>> readers from the new disability poetry anthology "Beauty is a Verb" >>> (Sheila Black, Jim Ferris, Kara Dorris, and Jennifer Bartlett) and >>> Juliana Spahr. Who says poetry is dying? let me at 'em! >>> >>> connie >>> >>> Sorry, Connie, but being about the only participant at New-Poetry who looks >>> at things analytically, I have to wonder what drew your 240, the poetry or >>> the feel-goodness of doing something for hunger.? Aside from that, a single >>> event or lots of events at a single location can't tell us much.? Each event >>> needs analysis.? I fear I will always remain convinced that serious poetry, >>> like serious mathematics, will never interest more than the few, for very >>> similar reasons.? Cheating, by referring to a single fact, I would advance >>> as evidence my local Books-a-Million, which has lots of books and is quite >>> nice, in my community of around 50,000 (I think): it has one shelf of poetry >>> collections holding about a fifth as many books as the stack of the latest >>> best-selling novel in the front of the store, and not looking to me like >>> there's much turn-over of its when I return to it on my occasional visits. >>> The store also has over a hundred different magazines for sale.? I do think >>> Poetry is one of them, but they stock only two or three copies of each >>> issue.? And Poetry?s poetry is about as low in seriousness as poetry can >>> drop and still be called serious.? A better fact is how little space >>> periodicals of any circulation devote to poetry.? My community does have two >>> or three poetry readings a month, but they are mostly social gatherings, and >>> rarely draw more than twenty people, most of them poets, but very few of >>> them serious poets, even by the standards of New-Poetry?doggerelists and >>> Hallmarkers. >>> >>> --Bob >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> >>-- >>Connie Voisine >>Associate Professor of English >>New Mexico State University >>cvoisine at nmsu.edu >>575-646-2027 >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Connie Voisine Associate Professor of English New Mexico State University cvoisine at nmsu.edu 575-646-2027 From junction at earthlink.net Tue Oct 11 19:43:01 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 19:43:01 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience Message-ID: <20753090.1318376582131.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Right. Las Cruces is not your average small town on the river. Doggerel more often than not used in that negative sense, natch. -----Original Message----- >From: Connie Voisine >Sent: Oct 11, 2011 7:01 PM >To: NewPoetry List >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience > >it could also be that we have many people in our community who >consider themselves writers whether or not they've been verified by >academia or traditional publication. > >why so many? i think it's because of the stellar outreach efforts over >the past 45 years by the following local writers: joe somoza, robert >boswell, antonya nelson, keith wilson, denise chavez and kevin >mcilvoy. they have been consistent in offering people access to >writing through community workshops (in people's homes, at a senior >center, etc.), the reading series that i inherited (which features >visiting writer receptions in people's houses after readings that >anyone can attend and they do), and a wonderful regional Border Book >Festival, chavez's baby and she gets everyone involved, believe me. >and it's all free.it does help to be the only show in town on a friday >night, but still i think a climate has been created by the people i >named above. anyone who comes to read here is very happy with the >experience. > >connie > >ps. doggerel, i know, is a form, but it is often used to indicate a >hierarchy in poetry. > > > >On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 4:09 PM, wrote: >> Small university town within easy drive of larger places that offer very little in the way of poetry readings, which may be why you're getting bigger crowds than most events at the high-profile Tucson or Bisbee poetry festivals. >> >> I lived in a part of Massachusetts where the local auction houses drew big crowds every week, though very few people actually bid. In winter there's not much to do and the roads to elsewhere are a pain in the ass. So auctions were both theater and social life. >> >> Doggerel doesn't just mean bad, by the way. There are some wonderful comic poems written intentionally in doggerel. The locus classicus is probably Hudibras. >> >> Best, >> >> Mark >> >> -----Original Message----- >>>From: Connie Voisine >>>Sent: Oct 11, 2011 11:35 AM >>>To: NewPoetry List >>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has ? ? ? smallaudience >>> >>>Bob-- >>> >>>i like to think of poetry in terms of the language of food activists. >>>it's a "locovore" culture, meaning that books are hand sold--i don't >>>think most poetry books are bought by people who haven't met the >>>writer and/or heard them read. rather than resenting that idea, i >>>embrace it. i like the idea that poems move from person to person with >>>human bodies doing that lovely labor. >>> >>>why do i enjoy this model? it's not corporate, not one bit, and the >>>models of productivity don't (and therefore shouldn't) apply. i never >>>entered into poetry thinking about fame or wealth but more about the >>>great life it's given me and that i can, as a writer and teacher, >>>participate in. without it i and a bunch of other people would have >>>been quite sad and i certainly would not have the life i have today. >>>maybe the 240 people came to feel better about the hunger situation in >>>our community, but it was a magical night during which i had a lot of >>>conversations about poetry. with a chemist from my university, with a >>>number of young writers, with the foodbank director, etc. the next >>>day, i had a wonderful breakfast with the writers where we talked >>>about conceptions of disability and the role of art, the problems with >>>institutialization of art, and what writers we liked to read. i can't >>>be cynical about any of that. >>> >>>i am not a pollyanna, not even close. however, ?i will not use terms >>>such as doggerel except in private (a girl has her own tastes and >>>preferences). poetry is a cultural practice and by prioritizing that, >>>i feel poetry will stay very much alive. it's living in a small town >>>called las cruces in the desert in new mexico. >>> >>>connie >>> >>>On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 9:12 AM, bob grumman wrote: >>>> Poetry >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Connie Voisine >>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:42 AM >>>> To: NewPoetry List >>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small >>>> audience >>>> >>>> dear all-- >>>> >>>> i run a series in back-desert new mexico and we have readers come >>>> about every other week during the school year. we regularly have 100 >>>> people at our readings, coming to hear poetry! i know it's nice being >>>> the only show in town, but there's always tv, right? at a benefit >>>> reading (for hunger) this weekend, we had 240 people listening to >>>> readers from the new disability poetry anthology "Beauty is a Verb" >>>> (Sheila Black, Jim Ferris, Kara Dorris, and Jennifer Bartlett) and >>>> Juliana Spahr. Who says poetry is dying? let me at 'em! >>>> >>>> connie >>>> >>>> Sorry, Connie, but being about the only participant at New-Poetry who looks >>>> at things analytically, I have to wonder what drew your 240, the poetry or >>>> the feel-goodness of doing something for hunger.? Aside from that, a single >>>> event or lots of events at a single location can't tell us much.? Each event >>>> needs analysis.? I fear I will always remain convinced that serious poetry, >>>> like serious mathematics, will never interest more than the few, for very >>>> similar reasons.? Cheating, by referring to a single fact, I would advance >>>> as evidence my local Books-a-Million, which has lots of books and is quite >>>> nice, in my community of around 50,000 (I think): it has one shelf of poetry >>>> collections holding about a fifth as many books as the stack of the latest >>>> best-selling novel in the front of the store, and not looking to me like >>>> there's much turn-over of its when I return to it on my occasional visits. >>>> The store also has over a hundred different magazines for sale.? I do think >>>> Poetry is one of them, but they stock only two or three copies of each >>>> issue.? And Poetry?s poetry is about as low in seriousness as poetry can >>>> drop and still be called serious.? A better fact is how little space >>>> periodicals of any circulation devote to poetry.? My community does have two >>>> or three poetry readings a month, but they are mostly social gatherings, and >>>> rarely draw more than twenty people, most of them poets, but very few of >>>> them serious poets, even by the standards of New-Poetry?doggerelists and >>>> Hallmarkers. >>>> >>>> --Bob >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>-- >>>Connie Voisine >>>Associate Professor of English >>>New Mexico State University >>>cvoisine at nmsu.edu >>>575-646-2027 >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > >-- >Connie Voisine >Associate Professor of English >New Mexico State University >cvoisine at nmsu.edu >575-646-2027 >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Oct 11 20:43:13 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Tue, 11 Oct 2011 20:43:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetryhas smallaudience In-Reply-To: <20753090.1318376582131.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <20753090.1318376582131.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <334E0238DC9F4EC0BA7DC1A4C77ACB48@BobHP> -----Original Message----- From: junction at earthlink.net Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 7:43 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetryhas smallaudience Right. Las Cruces is not your average small town on the river. Doggerel more often than not used in that negative sense, natch. I meant it as more or less neutral, basically meaning ?not serious,? because?face it?anyone can write doggerel. I attended lots of local readings in which two or three good mainstream poets read, I presented, and some terrific doggerel poets read, but also several Hallmarkers and not-so-great doggerel poets. Usually musicians were part of it, ones I thought were good. Hurrah for such gatherings. I?m too old for them now, I fear. A harruH (a ?Hurrah? in reverse) that I?ve never been to a similar event for serious poetry that I had to travel less than five hundred miles to get to?although, truth be told, I lived in LA fifteen years and could have, but was a failed playwright then rather than a failed poet, and lived in the San Fernando Valley, not Venice (except for a few months). --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Wed Oct 12 13:10:24 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 13:10:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience In-Reply-To: <33534E4CA92A4F938DAEF4223F60D85B@BobHP> References: <8CE55C5F6DAB8FE-23A4-86460@Webmail-m115.sysops.aol.com> <33534E4CA92A4F938DAEF4223F60D85B@BobHP> Message-ID: Bob, There really is no basis of comparison between "serious mathematics" and "serious poetry." Serious mathematical work, especially serious exploratory mathematical work, requires an extraordinary mind and, usually (these days certainly), extraordinary training. Cutting edge work in mathematics is often only understood only by other mathematicians working in the same or closely related fields; proofs or disproofs of theorems may require years or even generations of work. On the other hand, the whole point of a poem is to communicate with and to in some fashion delight one's reader or listener. Even difficult poetry must, at some level, be accessible to the non-specialist. I also strenuously object to your characterization of the magazine Poetry. It doesn't print poetry you consider innovative: so what? Innovation for its own sake has no more value than pentameter for its own sake. It doesn't print poetry you consider challenging: so what? Here's another difference between poetry and mathematics: in mathematics, once a problem has been solved or a conjecture proved or disproved, it may find a use in further mathematical exploration or in the solution of technical problems in, say, the construction of carbon sails for America's Cup racing boats; solutions to poetry's problems are never generalizable or useful, and they don't help write the next poem. Try writing a sonnet, Bob, in strict Spenserian form, in modern colloquial English. If you succeed (it doesn't have to be good, just formally successful), try writing another. And another. And another. It will get a little easier for a little while. But write a hundred of them, and the hundred and first will be no easier than was the seventieth. And what good ones there may be will each be mysteriously unlike the others. www.mikesnider.org On Oct 11, 2011, at 11:12, "bob grumman" wrote: > Poetry > > -----Original Message----- > From: Connie Voisine > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:42 AM > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience > > dear all-- > > i run a series in back-desert new mexico and we have readers come > about every other week during the school year. we regularly have 100 > people at our readings, coming to hear poetry! i know it's nice being > the only show in town, but there's always tv, right? at a benefit > reading (for hunger) this weekend, we had 240 people listening to > readers from the new disability poetry anthology "Beauty is a Verb" > (Sheila Black, Jim Ferris, Kara Dorris, and Jennifer Bartlett) and > Juliana Spahr. Who says poetry is dying? let me at 'em! > > connie > > Sorry, Connie, but being about the only participant at New-Poetry who looks at things analytically, I have to wonder what drew your 240, the poetry or the feel-goodness of doing something for hunger. Aside from that, a single event or lots of events at a single location can't tell us much. Each event needs analysis. I fear I will always remain convinced that serious poetry, like serious mathematics, will never interest more than the few, for very similar reasons. Cheating, by referring to a single fact, I would advance as evidence my local Books-a-Million, which has lots of books and is quite nice, in my community of around 50,000 (I think): it has one shelf of poetry collections holding about a fifth as many books as the stack of the latest best-selling novel in the front of the store, and not looking to me like there's much turn-over of its when I return to it on my occasional visits. The store also has over a hundred different magazines for sale. I do think Poetry is one of them, but they stock only two or three copies of each issue. And Poetry?s poetry is about as low in seriousness as poetry can drop and still be called serious. A better fact is how little space periodicals of any circulation devote to poetry. My community does have two or three poetry readings a month, but they are mostly social gatherings, and rarely draw more than twenty people, most of them poets, but very few of them serious poets, even by the standards of New-Poetry?doggerelists and Hallmarkers. > > --Bob > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Wed Oct 12 13:34:11 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 13:34:11 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience Message-ID: <8188121.1318440851848.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Wed Oct 12 13:46:13 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 13:46:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience In-Reply-To: <33534E4CA92A4F938DAEF4223F60D85B@BobHP> References: <8CE55C5F6DAB8FE-23A4-86460@Webmail-m115.sysops.aol.com> <33534E4CA92A4F938DAEF4223F60D85B@BobHP> Message-ID: <981E682A-8C05-4498-8733-0AB5D23F038F@mikesnider.org> And Bob - I am a mathematician, or at least I make my living pretending to be one. We write software that uses things like Kallman filters to solve multivariate motion analysis problems, such as analyzing high speed video of carrier operations to determine the relative positions and motions of ships and aircraft during catapult launches and when catching the wire. www.mikesnider.org On Oct 11, 2011, at 11:12, "bob grumman" wrote: > Poetry > > -----Original Message----- > From: Connie Voisine > Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:42 AM > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience > > dear all-- > > i run a series in back-desert new mexico and we have readers come > about every other week during the school year. we regularly have 100 > people at our readings, coming to hear poetry! i know it's nice being > the only show in town, but there's always tv, right? at a benefit > reading (for hunger) this weekend, we had 240 people listening to > readers from the new disability poetry anthology "Beauty is a Verb" > (Sheila Black, Jim Ferris, Kara Dorris, and Jennifer Bartlett) and > Juliana Spahr. Who says poetry is dying? let me at 'em! > > connie > > Sorry, Connie, but being about the only participant at New-Poetry who looks at things analytically, I have to wonder what drew your 240, the poetry or the feel-goodness of doing something for hunger. Aside from that, a single event or lots of events at a single location can't tell us much. Each event needs analysis. I fear I will always remain convinced that serious poetry, like serious mathematics, will never interest more than the few, for very similar reasons. Cheating, by referring to a single fact, I would advance as evidence my local Books-a-Million, which has lots of books and is quite nice, in my community of around 50,000 (I think): it has one shelf of poetry collections holding about a fifth as many books as the stack of the latest best-selling novel in the front of the store, and not looking to me like there's much turn-over of its when I return to it on my occasional visits. The store also has over a hundred different magazines for sale. I do think Poetry is one of them, but they stock only two or three copies of each issue. And Poetry?s poetry is about as low in seriousness as poetry can drop and still be called serious. A better fact is how little space periodicals of any circulation devote to poetry. My community does have two or three poetry readings a month, but they are mostly social gatherings, and rarely draw more than twenty people, most of them poets, but very few of them serious poets, even by the standards of New-Poetry?doggerelists and Hallmarkers. > > --Bob > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Wed Oct 12 13:59:47 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 13:59:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience In-Reply-To: <8188121.1318440851848.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <8188121.1318440851848.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <335BE11D-A33E-4E05-8485-1FEF003C908C@mikesnider.org> Mark, Bob comes as close as anyone I've ever encountered to valuing "innovation for its own sake," and I was speaking specifically to him in response to specific comments of his. I'm quite aware that there are poets working in forms "far more severe" than the sonnet, and I value that work for the same reason that I value the sonnet - it forces the writer to get at least a little bit outside of his or her habits and preconceptions. I do happen to like (and write) sonnets, but I suggested that route to Bob not because of the sonnet form's intrinsic worth as compared to other forms and methods, but to suggest that even the hoary old sonnet presents problems and opportunities in a manner quite different from those encountered in mathematical work. Best, Mike www.mikesnider.org On Oct 12, 2011, at 13:34, junction at earthlink.net wrote: > Mike: I think you suffer from a basic, pretty common misunderstanding. Nobody beyond adolescence that I know of practices "innovation for its own sake." Even oulipeans and some language poets, who create constraints far more severe than the sonnet within which to work, are primarily interested in finding out what's to be learned in process. Most other "innovative" poetry is interested in process without prior contrivance--form created as the poem advances. Sometimes this can look pretty radical, sometimes not. But the poet has gone somewhere he or she couldn't anticipate, in form or content. The reader experiences that unfolding, "but you have to try real hard." In the process, something has been "made new," as if seen for the first time. > > Best, > > Mark > > > > I also strenuously object to your characterization of the magazine Poetry. It doesn't print poetry you consider innovative: so what? Innovation for its own sake has no more value than pentameter for its own sake. It doesn't print poetry you consider challenging: so what? Here's another difference between poetry and mathematics: in mathematics, once a problem has been solved or a conjecture proved or disproved, it may find a use in further mathematical exploration or in the solution of technical problems in, say, the construction of carbon sails for America's Cup racing boats; solutions to poetry's problems are never generalizable or useful, and they don't help write the next poem. Try writing a sonnet, Bob, in strict Spenserian form, in modern colloquial English. If you succeed (it doesn't have to be good, just formally successful), try writing another. And another. And another. It will get a little easier for a little while. But write a hundred of them, and the hundred and first will be no easier than was the seventieth. And what good ones there may be will each be mysteriously unlike the others. > > www.mikesnider.org > > On Oct 11, 2011, at 11:12, "bob grumman" wrote: > >> Poetry >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Connie Voisine >> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:42 AM >> To: NewPoetry List >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience >> >> dear all-- >> >> i run a series in back-desert new mexico and we have readers come >> about every other week during the school year. we regularly have 100 >> people at our readings, coming to hear poetry! i know it's nice being >> the only show in town, but there's always tv, right? at a benefit >> reading (for hunger) this weekend, we had 240 people listening to >> readers from the new disability poetry anthology "Beauty is a Verb" >> (Sheila Black, Jim Ferris, Kara Dorris, and Jennifer Bartlett) and >> Juliana Spahr. Who says poetry is dying? let me at 'em! >> >> connie >> >> Sorry, Connie, but being about the only participant at New-Poetry who looks at things analytically, I have to wonder what drew your 240, the poetry or the feel-goodness of doing something for hunger. Aside from that, a single event or lots of events at a single location can't tell us much. Each event needs analysis. I fear I will always remain convinced that serious poetry, like serious mathematics, will never interest more than the few, for very similar reasons. Cheating, by referring to a single fact, I would advance as evidence my local Books-a-Million, which has lots of books and is quite nice, in my community of around 50,000 (I think): it has one shelf of poetry collections holding about a fifth as many books as the stack of the latest best-selling novel in the front of the store, and not looking to me like there's much turn-over of its when I return to it on my occasional visits. The store also has over a hundred different magazines for sale. I do think Poetry is one of them, but they stock only two or three copies of each issue. And Poetry?s poetry is about as low in seriousness as poetry can drop and still be called serious. A better fact is how little space periodicals of any circulation devote to poetry. My community does have two or three poetry readings a month, but they are mostly social gatherings, and rarely draw more than twenty people, most of them poets, but very few of them serious poets, even by the standards of New-Poetry?doggerelists and Hallmarkers. >> >> --Bob >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Wed Oct 12 14:01:45 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 14:01:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience In-Reply-To: <8188121.1318440851848.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <8188121.1318440851848.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <6D0E0E48-799E-46A6-A52D-8968BECFE2AD@mikesnider.org> I almost forgot: your condescension does not become you. www.mikesnider.org On Oct 12, 2011, at 13:34, junction at earthlink.net wrote: > Mike: I think you suffer from a basic, pretty common misunderstanding. Nobody beyond adolescence that I know of practices "innovation for its own sake." Even oulipeans and some language poets, who create constraints far more severe than the sonnet within which to work, are primarily interested in finding out what's to be learned in process. Most other "innovative" poetry is interested in process without prior contrivance--form created as the poem advances. Sometimes this can look pretty radical, sometimes not. But the poet has gone somewhere he or she couldn't anticipate, in form or content. The reader experiences that unfolding, "but you have to try real hard." In the process, something has been "made new," as if seen for the first time. > > Best, > > Mark > > > > I also strenuously object to your characterization of the magazine Poetry. It doesn't print poetry you consider innovative: so what? Innovation for its own sake has no more value than pentameter for its own sake. It doesn't print poetry you consider challenging: so what? Here's another difference between poetry and mathematics: in mathematics, once a problem has been solved or a conjecture proved or disproved, it may find a use in further mathematical exploration or in the solution of technical problems in, say, the construction of carbon sails for America's Cup racing boats; solutions to poetry's problems are never generalizable or useful, and they don't help write the next poem. Try writing a sonnet, Bob, in strict Spenserian form, in modern colloquial English. If you succeed (it doesn't have to be good, just formally successful), try writing another. And another. And another. It will get a little easier for a little while. But write a hundred of them, and the hundred and first will be no easier than was the seventieth. And what good ones there may be will each be mysteriously unlike the others. > > www.mikesnider.org > > On Oct 11, 2011, at 11:12, "bob grumman" wrote: > >> Poetry >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Connie Voisine >> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:42 AM >> To: NewPoetry List >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience >> >> dear all-- >> >> i run a series in back-desert new mexico and we have readers come >> about every other week during the school year. we regularly have 100 >> people at our readings, coming to hear poetry! i know it's nice being >> the only show in town, but there's always tv, right? at a benefit >> reading (for hunger) this weekend, we had 240 people listening to >> readers from the new disability poetry anthology "Beauty is a Verb" >> (Sheila Black, Jim Ferris, Kara Dorris, and Jennifer Bartlett) and >> Juliana Spahr. Who says poetry is dying? let me at 'em! >> >> connie >> >> Sorry, Connie, but being about the only participant at New-Poetry who looks at things analytically, I have to wonder what drew your 240, the poetry or the feel-goodness of doing something for hunger. Aside from that, a single event or lots of events at a single location can't tell us much. Each event needs analysis. I fear I will always remain convinced that serious poetry, like serious mathematics, will never interest more than the few, for very similar reasons. Cheating, by referring to a single fact, I would advance as evidence my local Books-a-Million, which has lots of books and is quite nice, in my community of around 50,000 (I think): it has one shelf of poetry collections holding about a fifth as many books as the stack of the latest best-selling novel in the front of the store, and not looking to me like there's much turn-over of its when I return to it on my occasional visits. The store also has over a hundred different magazines for sale. I do think Poetry is one of them, but they stock only two or three copies of each issue. And Poetry?s poetry is about as low in seriousness as poetry can drop and still be called serious. A better fact is how little space periodicals of any circulation devote to poetry. My community does have two or three poetry readings a month, but they are mostly social gatherings, and rarely draw more than twenty people, most of them poets, but very few of them serious poets, even by the standards of New-Poetry?doggerelists and Hallmarkers. >> >> --Bob >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Wed Oct 12 14:10:56 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 14:10:56 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience Message-ID: <16742168.1318443057143.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Wed Oct 12 14:32:11 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 14:32:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience In-Reply-To: <16742168.1318443057143.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <16742168.1318443057143.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Well known to me, as well - and as applicable to the Spenserian sonnet as to Oulipo and flarf. Get off your high horse. . www.mikesnider.org On Oct 12, 2011, at 14:10, junction at earthlink.net wrote: > In the eye of the beholder. I was contextualizing the well-known line from Williams. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Snider > Sent: Oct 12, 2011 2:01 PM > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience > > I almost forgot: your condescension does not become you. > > www.mikesnider.org > > On Oct 12, 2011, at 13:34, junction at earthlink.net wrote: > >> Mike: I think you suffer from a basic, pretty common misunderstanding. Nobody beyond adolescence that I know of practices "innovation for its own sake." Even oulipeans and some language poets, who create constraints far more severe than the sonnet within which to work, are primarily interested in finding out what's to be learned in process. Most other "innovative" poetry is interested in process without prior contrivance--form created as the poem advances. Sometimes this can look pretty radical, sometimes not. But the poet has gone somewhere he or she couldn't anticipate, in form or content. The reader experiences that unfolding, "but you have to try real hard." In the process, something has been "made new," as if seen for the first time. >> >> Best, >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> I also strenuously object to your characterization of the magazine Poetry. It doesn't print poetry you consider innovative: so what? Innovation for its own sake has no more value than pentameter for its own sake. It doesn't print poetry you consider challenging: so what? Here's another difference between poetry and mathematics: in mathematics, once a problem has been solved or a conjecture proved or disproved, it may find a use in further mathematical exploration or in the solution of technical problems in, say, the construction of carbon sails for America's Cup racing boats; solutions to poetry's problems are never generalizable or useful, and they don't help write the next poem. Try writing a sonnet, Bob, in strict Spenserian form, in modern colloquial English. If you succeed (it doesn't have to be good, just formally successful), try writing another. And another. And another. It will get a little easier for a little while. But write a hundred of them, and the hundred and first will be no easier than was the seventieth. And what good ones there may be will each be mysteriously unlike the others. >> >> www.mikesnider.org >> >> On Oct 11, 2011, at 11:12, "bob grumman" wrote: >> >>> Poetry >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Connie Voisine >>> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:42 AM >>> To: NewPoetry List >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience >>> >>> dear all-- >>> >>> i run a series in back-desert new mexico and we have readers come >>> about every other week during the school year. we regularly have 100 >>> people at our readings, coming to hear poetry! i know it's nice being >>> the only show in town, but there's always tv, right? at a benefit >>> reading (for hunger) this weekend, we had 240 people listening to >>> readers from the new disability poetry anthology "Beauty is a Verb" >>> (Sheila Black, Jim Ferris, Kara Dorris, and Jennifer Bartlett) and >>> Juliana Spahr. Who says poetry is dying? let me at 'em! >>> >>> connie >>> >>> Sorry, Connie, but being about the only participant at New-Poetry who looks at things analytically, I have to wonder what drew your 240, the poetry or the feel-goodness of doing something for hunger. Aside from that, a single event or lots of events at a single location can't tell us much. Each event needs analysis. I fear I will always remain convinced that serious poetry, like serious mathematics, will never interest more than the few, for very similar reasons. Cheating, by referring to a single fact, I would advance as evidence my local Books-a-Million, which has lots of books and is quite nice, in my community of around 50,000 (I think): it has one shelf of poetry collections holding about a fifth as many books as the stack of the latest best-selling novel in the front of the store, and not looking to me like there's much turn-over of its when I return to it on my occasional visits. The store also has over a hundred different magazines for sale. I do think Poetry is one of them, but they stock only two or three copies of each issue. And Poetry?s poetry is about as low in seriousness as poetry can drop and still be called serious. A better fact is how little space periodicals of any circulation devote to poetry. My community does have two or three poetry readings a month, but they are mostly social gatherings, and rarely draw more than twenty people, most of them poets, but very few of them serious poets, even by the standards of New-Poetry?doggerelists and Hallmarkers. >>> >>> --Bob >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Wed Oct 12 14:41:30 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 14:41:30 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience Message-ID: <9651409.1318444890436.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Oct 12 14:55:36 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 14:55:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Natl Book Award nominees Message-ID: <8CE5727A93AA580-166C-851C@Webmail-m117.sysops.aol.com> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/10/12/national/a093751D40.DTL the poetry panel selected some of the biggest names in the field, including the 82-year-old Rich ("Tonight No Poetry Will Serve: Poems 2007-2010"), Carl Phillips ("Double Shadow") and Yusef Komunyakaa ("The Chameleon Couch"). The other finalists were Nikky Finney's "Head Off & Split" and Bruce Smith's "Devotions." Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/10/12/national/a093751D40.DTL#ixzz1aaxqfBCk -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Oct 12 14:58:43 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 14:58:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Photos from Donald Hall celebration in Hamden CT Message-ID: <8CE572818B77A96-166C-85E0@Webmail-m117.sysops.aol.com> http://hamdensdonaldhall.blogspot.com/ On September 16, 2011, the Hamden Public Library and the Town of Hamden honored native son and nationally renowned poet, Donald Hall. At that time many area residents came forward with thoughts and memories of Mr. Hall and his life in Hamden which we have begun to collect here on this blog. Feel free to comment on what you find here or, if you have additional items you would like to add, please contact the library. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 15:21:15 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 14:21:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Natl Book Award nominees In-Reply-To: <8CE5727A93AA580-166C-851C@Webmail-m117.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE5727A93AA580-166C-851C@Webmail-m117.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Omg! No, vispo folks in sight! Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 1:55 PM, wrote: > > http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/10/12/national/a093751D40.DTL > > the poetry panel selected some of the biggest names in the field, including > the 82-year-old Rich ("Tonight No Poetry Will Serve: Poems 2007-2010"), Carl > Phillips ("Double Shadow") and Yusef Komunyakaa ("The Chameleon Couch"). The > other finalists were Nikky Finney's "Head Off & Split" and Bruce Smith's > "Devotions." > > Read more: > http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/10/12/national/a093751D40.DTL#ixzz1aaxqfBCk > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Oct 12 15:26:12 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 15:26:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry hassmallaudience In-Reply-To: References: <8CE55C5F6DAB8FE-23A4-86460@Webmail-m115.sysops.aol.com><33534E4CA92A4F938DAEF4223F60D85B@BobHP> Message-ID: <3025B401B3E7409AA4BB826CC1E85CF4@BobHP> From: Michael Snider Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 1:10 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry hassmallaudience Bob, There really is no basis of comparison between "serious mathematics" and "serious poetry." Serious mathematical work, especially serious exploratory mathematical work, requires an extraordinary mind and, usually (these days certainly), extraordinary training. Cutting edge work in mathematics is often only understood only by other mathematicians working in the same or closely related fields; proofs or disproofs of theorems may require years or even generations of work. On the other hand, the whole point of a poem is to communicate with and to in some fashion delight one's reader or listener. Even difficult poetry must, at some level, be accessible to the non-specialist. The comparison is between the number of people interested in serious poetry and in serious mathematics. Serious mathematics is not accessible to most bright laymen, granted; serious poetry tries to be, but apparently is not?hence the tiny audience for it. Of course, I exaggerate?there is a larger audience for what I call serious poetry than there is for serious mathematics. A main reason for that is that there is a fair amount of serious poetry that has started to be understood by others than those fashioning it. I also strenuously object to your characterization of the magazine Poetry. It doesn't print poetry you consider innovative: so what? It?s more that it ignores?doesn?t even review?a great deal of kinds of poetry unlike the kind it does publish (except very rarely, tokenly?and incompletely). Most of what it ignores most people call ?innovative.? It?s hard to say what is innovative, what not. I don?t really consider any visual poetry innovative. I consider my mathematical poetry innovative, though not necessarily good (although I do like it myself), because it?s doing things that very few other poems do. Whatever it is, Poetry ignores it?but claims to be trying to advance the cause of poetry, which is why I pick on it so much. Innovation for its own sake has no more value than pentameter for its own sake. So you admit that innovation has at least the value of the pentameter? That?s saying a lot. (I will ignore your propagandistically silly addition ?for its own sake.?) You?ll note I did not say Poetry did not publish serious poetry, only that the poetry it did publish is not as serious as it could be. That, I?m afraid, is due to my prejudice against poetry that doesn?t try to do anything whatever that?s new, and I just don?t see how the poems in Poetry do?or usually do, since I have not looked at all of them. For me personally, the beginning of seriousness in poetry is finding a way to say something in a fresh way. David Graham will second you in claiming that many poems in the magazine are wonderfully fresh. So that gets subjective, for they just don?t seem so to me. It doesn't print poetry you consider challenging: so what? A great deal of now-accepted poetry has in the past been considered challenging. I can?t see how being challenging would not qualify as being serious. Poetry ignores such poetry, so has to be ignoring one kind of seriousness in poetry. Therefore, it is lower in seriousness than other venues. Here's another difference between poetry and mathematics: in mathematics, once a problem has been solved or a conjecture proved or disproved, it may find a use in further mathematical exploration or in the solution of technical problems in, say, the construction of carbon sails for America's Cup racing boats; solutions to poetry's problems are never generalizable or useful, and they don't help write the next poem. That?s absurd. See below. Try writing a sonnet, Bob, in strict Spenserian form, in modern colloquial English. If you succeed (it doesn't have to be good, just formally successful), try writing another. And another. And another. It will get a little easier for a little while. But write a hundred of them, and the hundred and first will be no easier than was the seventieth. And what good ones there may be will each be mysteriously unlike the others. I?m lousy at sonnets but have written some. Once I couldn?t get one to fit the Italian scheme, so gave it a 9-line octave and 5-line . . . whatever (can?t think of the term). I think the rhyme scheme was aba cbc dbc efefe. It solved that sonner?s problems (for me), and provided a general tool for writing sonnets: expanding into different rhyme schemes is okay as long as you adhere to what I consider the sonnet-spirit. Wilfred Owen did the same thing when he introduced what I call the rim-rhyme?making ?rim? rhyme with ?rhyme,? for instance. He solved the problem of the boringness of expected rhymes, and made the solution available to other poets, although few have done anything with it, which is one of the reasons, in spite of your own excellent sonnets, that the sonnet is having trouble. Berryman came up with a similar solution (maybe not his own, I don?t know enough about it to say)?a kind of language poetry use of words. That may have helped others, I don?t know. And I can?t remember his sonnets well enough to know exactly what he did in them except that I found most of them richly challenging. Then, of course, there are the many solutions to Wilshberian dullness that have resulted in scores of new kinds of poems As a critic, I have to say I don?t think any poem is ?mysteriously unlike? any other poems. Some of the things my poems do amaze me, but when I stop and think, I can work out how unamazing they are in truth. It?s rather a handicap, actually, for it makes me too sensitive to how unchanging my poems are, and I have this weird need for my poems to be different from one another, and from others? poems too, needless to say. Seriousness in a poem would have to include size of the vision it shows, too. I won?t get into that here except to say that most contemporary poems, whether published in Poetry or elsewhere, fail to show much size of vision. I don?t try for it every time I compose a poem, but do consider those of my poems that are limited, well, scorn for certain kinds of poetry as is the case with a couple of them, are not high in seriousness. Back to something else you said: I wonder if it?s so that mathematics isn?t communication the way poetry is: isn?t it?s final application communicable?in the sense that a rocket is mathematics (and other things) successfully communicated? I liken it to music: the final product certainly communicates but the score and the musicological knowledge that went into will seem as obscure to most music-lovers as the math behind the rocket. There?s a lot of similarly arcane knowledge behind poems, too?although a layman can be taught to understand it much more easily than he can be taught to understand the rocket-math because we?re exposed to words all or lives. Complex subject, but my only point was that the most serious poetry, by almost anyone?s standards, is for the few. --Bob www.mikesnider.org On Oct 11, 2011, at 11:12, "bob grumman" wrote: Poetry -----Original Message----- From: Connie Voisine Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:42 AM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience dear all-- i run a series in back-desert new mexico and we have readers come about every other week during the school year. we regularly have 100 people at our readings, coming to hear poetry! i know it's nice being the only show in town, but there's always tv, right? at a benefit reading (for hunger) this weekend, we had 240 people listening to readers from the new disability poetry anthology "Beauty is a Verb" (Sheila Black, Jim Ferris, Kara Dorris, and Jennifer Bartlett) and Juliana Spahr. Who says poetry is dying? let me at 'em! connie Sorry, Connie, but being about the only participant at New-Poetry who looks at things analytically, I have to wonder what drew your 240, the poetry or the feel-goodness of doing something for hunger. Aside from that, a single event or lots of events at a single location can't tell us much. Each event needs analysis. I fear I will always remain convinced that serious poetry, like serious mathematics, will never interest more than the few, for very similar reasons. Cheating, by referring to a single fact, I would advance as evidence my local Books-a-Million, which has lots of books and is quite nice, in my community of around 50,000 (I think): it has one shelf of poetry collections holding about a fifth as many books as the stack of the latest best-selling novel in the front of the store, and not looking to me like there's much turn-over of its when I return to it on my occasional visits. The store also has over a hundred different magazines for sale. I do think Poetry is one of them, but they stock only two or three copies of each issue. And Poetry?s poetry is about as low in seriousness as poetry can drop and still be called serious. A better fact is how little space periodicals of any circulation devote to poetry. My community does have two or three poetry readings a month, but they are mostly social gatherings, and rarely draw more than twenty people, most of them poets, but very few of them serious poets, even by the standards of New-Poetry?doggerelists and Hallmarkers. --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Wed Oct 12 15:37:04 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 15:37:04 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience In-Reply-To: <9651409.1318444890436.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <9651409.1318444890436.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <51319C53-8505-483E-889E-F3AB17417C47@mikesnider.org> Mark, It is an open forum. And you and I both wrote messages on the forum with a named recipient. I did it first, to Bob. I'm not offended that you don't know what it is that I may or may not have read. I was beginning to find it offensive that every time you've responded directly to me, you've said something like "I'm afraid you have a basic and not uncommon misconception ... " and proceeded to inform me of the nature of my shortcomings. I haven't seen any evidence that we have any actual disagreement other than taste in poetry, and I've never assumed that because we don't like/dislike equally the same poems or kinds of poems that your education or understanding is somehow lacking. I'm with Mrs. O'Leary on matters of taste. My default assumption on this list is that everyone here is at least as well read and as smart as I am. They may be mistaken about some things - so might I. In fact, it's a near certainty that everyone here is mistaken or misinformed about something in some post or other. But it's also true that everyone who posts here with any regularity, and I emphatically include Bob Grumman (with whom I most often disagree), is intelligent, well-read, well-informed, and capable. As you say, there's more than one country here. But we all speak dialects of the same language. There will be muddles and scrapes, but they don't have to come to tears. Have a good ride. www.mikesnider.org On Oct 12, 2011, at 14:41, junction at earthlink.net wrote: > Michael: This is an open forum, not messages directed to one person. But if you're offended that I don't always know what you've read perhaps you should post a catalogue of your library and the syllabi of any courses you've taken. Be sure to mention what days you cut classes. > > I assume (I really do) that you've done the hard work of reading texts that you couldn't understand (or understand the workings of) immediately because something about them compelled you to do so. I bet that your and my lists of such texts would be different, despite the overlaps. While the boundaries are blurry, there are at least two countries here. > > My horse and I have to trot off to the post office. Keep well. > > Mark > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Snider > Sent: Oct 12, 2011 2:32 PM > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience > > Well known to me, as well - and as applicable to the Spenserian sonnet as to Oulipo and flarf. Get off your high horse. > . > > www.mikesnider.org > > On Oct 12, 2011, at 14:10, junction at earthlink.net wrote: > >> In the eye of the beholder. I was contextualizing the well-known line from Williams. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Michael Snider >> Sent: Oct 12, 2011 2:01 PM >> To: NewPoetry List >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience >> >> I almost forgot: your condescension does not become you. >> >> www.mikesnider.org >> >> On Oct 12, 2011, at 13:34, junction at earthlink.net wrote: >> >>> Mike: I think you suffer from a basic, pretty common misunderstanding. Nobody beyond adolescence that I know of practices "innovation for its own sake." Even oulipeans and some language poets, who create constraints far more severe than the sonnet within which to work, are primarily interested in finding out what's to be learned in process. Most other "innovative" poetry is interested in process without prior contrivance--form created as the poem advances. Sometimes this can look pretty radical, sometimes not. But the poet has gone somewhere he or she couldn't anticipate, in form or content. The reader experiences that unfolding, "but you have to try real hard." In the process, something has been "made new," as if seen for the first time. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> >>> I also strenuously object to your characterization of the magazine Poetry. It doesn't print poetry you consider innovative: so what? Innovation for its own sake has no more value than pentameter for its own sake. It doesn't print poetry you consider challenging: so what? Here's another difference between poetry and mathematics: in mathematics, once a problem has been solved or a conjecture proved or disproved, it may find a use in further mathematical exploration or in the solution of technical problems in, say, the construction of carbon sails for America's Cup racing boats; solutions to poetry's problems are never generalizable or useful, and they don't help write the next poem. Try writing a sonnet, Bob, in strict Spenserian form, in modern colloquial English. If you succeed (it doesn't have to be good, just formally successful), try writing another. And another. And another. It will get a little easier for a little while. But write a hundred of them, and the hundred and first will be no easier than was the seventieth. And what good ones there may be will each be mysteriously unlike the others. >>> >>> www.mikesnider.org >>> >>> On Oct 11, 2011, at 11:12, "bob grumman" wrote: >>> >>>> Poetry >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Connie Voisine >>>> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:42 AM >>>> To: NewPoetry List >>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience >>>> >>>> dear all-- >>>> >>>> i run a series in back-desert new mexico and we have readers come >>>> about every other week during the school year. we regularly have 100 >>>> people at our readings, coming to hear poetry! i know it's nice being >>>> the only show in town, but there's always tv, right? at a benefit >>>> reading (for hunger) this weekend, we had 240 people listening to >>>> readers from the new disability poetry anthology "Beauty is a Verb" >>>> (Sheila Black, Jim Ferris, Kara Dorris, and Jennifer Bartlett) and >>>> Juliana Spahr. Who says poetry is dying? let me at 'em! >>>> >>>> connie >>>> >>>> Sorry, Connie, but being about the only participant at New-Poetry who looks at things analytically, I have to wonder what drew your 240, the poetry or the feel-goodness of doing something for hunger. Aside from that, a single event or lots of events at a single location can't tell us much. Each event needs analysis. I fear I will always remain convinced that serious poetry, like serious mathematics, will never interest more than the few, for very similar reasons. Cheating, by referring to a single fact, I would advance as evidence my local Books-a-Million, which has lots of books and is quite nice, in my community of around 50,000 (I think): it has one shelf of poetry collections holding about a fifth as many books as the stack of the latest best-selling novel in the front of the store, and not looking to me like there's much turn-over of its when I return to it on my occasional visits. The store also has over a hundred different magazines for sale. I do think Poetry is one of them, but they stock only two or three copies of each issue. And Poetry?s poetry is about as low in seriousness as poetry can drop and still be called serious. A better fact is how little space periodicals of any circulation devote to poetry. My community does have two or three poetry readings a month, but they are mostly social gatherings, and rarely draw more than twenty people, most of them poets, but very few of them serious poets, even by the standards of New-Poetry?doggerelists and Hallmarkers. >>>> >>>> --Bob >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Oct 12 15:39:12 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 15:39:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetryhas smallaudience In-Reply-To: <335BE11D-A33E-4E05-8485-1FEF003C908C@mikesnider.org> References: <8188121.1318440851848.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <335BE11D-A33E-4E05-8485-1FEF003C908C@mikesnider.org> Message-ID: <5ED0C2468B184DB2ABF613EFA26AA855@BobHP> From: Michael Snider Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 1:59 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetryhas smallaudience Mark, Bob comes as close as anyone I've ever encountered to valuing "innovation for its own sake," I was going to deny the validity of that but I realized that of course I do think that innovation is valuable for its own sake, for providing a new way to go that may or may not work but will help one by revealing a way to go or avoid going. Similarly I value rhyme for its own sake, meter for its own sake, metaphor for its own sake. Obviously, describing someone as valuing X for its own sake has come to mean valuing nothing but X. Anyone who thinks I do is insane. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Oct 12 15:40:13 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 15:40:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Natl Book Award nominees In-Reply-To: References: <8CE5727A93AA580-166C-851C@Webmail-m117.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: From: Halvard Johnson Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 3:21 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Natl Book Award nominees Omg! No, vispo folks in sight! I?m shocked near-speechless. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From millb at aol.com Wed Oct 12 15:54:48 2011 From: millb at aol.com (Millicent Borges Accardi) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 15:54:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetryhas smallaudience In-Reply-To: <5ED0C2468B184DB2ABF613EFA26AA855@BobHP> References: <8188121.1318440851848.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net><335BE11D-A33E-4E05-8485-1FEF003C908C@mikesnider.org> <5ED0C2468B184DB2ABF613EFA26AA855@BobHP> Message-ID: <8CE572FEE68B41E-17A0-5DD2@webmail-d164.sysops.aol.com> I am not sure I want to jump into this--but here goes. Bob, I, too, feel there is a value in innovation, in discovery, In and of itself. And I take Miles Davis as a model and also figure skating. There are more points to be achieved when one reaches outside the box, rather than playing it safe. For example, a perfectly executed trumpet solo with no innovation and a moderate level of difficulty would not be as "valuable" as a solo that did something new or stretched music in a different way. And also with ice skating. A perfectly executed single axle would not receive the accolades of a flawed triple loop. Mill (temporarily serving the Frankfurt book fair area) -----Original Message----- From: bob grumman To: NewPoetry List Sent: Wed, Oct 12, 2011 9:39 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetryhas smallaudience From: Michael Snider Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 1:59 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetryhas smallaudience Mark, Bob comes as close as anyone I've ever encountered to valuing "innovation for its own sake," I was going to deny the validity of that but I realized that of course I do think that innovation is valuable for its own sake, for providing a new way to go that may or may not work but will help one by revealing a way to go or avoid going. Similarly I value rhyme for its own sake, meter for its own sake, metaphor for its own sake. Obviously, describing someone as valuing X for its own sake has come to mean valuing nothing but X. Anyone who thinks I do is insane. --Bob _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Oct 12 16:05:55 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 16:05:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetryhas smallaudience In-Reply-To: <8CE572FEE68B41E-17A0-5DD2@webmail-d164.sysops.aol.com> References: <8188121.1318440851848.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net><335BE11D-A33E-4E05-8485-1FEF003C908C@mikesnide r.org><5ED0C2468B184DB2ABF613EFA26AA855@BobHP> <8CE572FEE68B41E-17A0-5DD2@webmail-d164.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <2C207DAAEE5549F9A2D85CE48D3661CF@BobHP> From: Millicent Borges Accardi Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 3:54 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetryhas smallaudience I am not sure I want to jump into this--but here goes. Bob, I, too, feel there is a value in innovation, in discovery, In and of itself. And I take Miles Davis as a model and also figure skating. There are more points to be achieved when one reaches outside the box, rather than playing it safe. For example, a perfectly executed trumpet solo with no innovation and a moderate level of difficulty would not be as "valuable" as a solo that did something new or stretched music in a different way. And also with ice skating. A perfectly executed single axle would not receive the accolades of a flawed triple loop. Mill (temporarily serving the Frankfurt book fair area) WHAT IS THIS!!??! Sounds like some kind of agreement to me! Watch it, Mill. I?m usually the gentlest of persons, but. . . . --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Wed Oct 12 16:11:24 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 16:11:24 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience Message-ID: <16278267.1318450284700.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From almaginnes at aol.com Wed Oct 12 17:30:50 2011 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 17:30:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Natl Book Award nominees In-Reply-To: References: <8CE5727A93AA580-166C-851C@Webmail-m117.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CE573D58D85986-13EC-F6EE@webmail-m163.sysops.aol.com> Well, I enjoyed Komunyakaa and Smith's books. I haven't read the others. -----Original Message----- From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry List Sent: Wed, Oct 12, 2011 3:21 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Natl Book Award nominees Omg! No, vispo folks in sight! Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 1:55 PM, wrote: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/10/12/national/a093751D40.DTL the poetry panel selected some of the biggest names in the field, including the 82-year-old Rich ("Tonight No Poetry Will Serve: Poems 2007-2010"), Carl Phillips ("Double Shadow") and Yusef Komunyakaa ("The Chameleon Couch"). The other finalists were Nikky Finney's "Head Off & Split" and Bruce Smith's "Devotions." Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/10/12/national/a093751D40.DTL#ixzz1aaxqfBCk _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Wed Oct 12 17:49:00 2011 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 16:49:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Natl Book Award nominees In-Reply-To: <8CE573D58D85986-13EC-F6EE@webmail-m163.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I?ve fallen way behind in my Rich & Komunyakaa reading. In Komunyakaa?s case, it was because I started to like his work less and less after Dien Cai Dau* and *Neon Vernacular*. With Carl Philips I?ve never finished a book?just not my cup of tea. But as usual there are not only books on the nomination list I haven?t read, but a poet I?ve never read, and may not even have heard of?in this case Nikky Finney. So I?m casting my imaginary vote for the only book on the list that I?ve actually read and loved: Bruce Smith?s Devotions. Surprised not to see Dean Young?s recent one nominated. I think it may be his best one yet. On 10/12/11 4:30 PM, "almaginnes at aol.com" wrote: > Well, I enjoyed Komunyakaa and Smith's books. I haven't read the others. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 1:55 PM, wrote: >> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/10/12/national/a093751D >> 40.DTL >> >> the poetry panel selected some of the biggest names in the field, including >> the 82-year-old Rich ("Tonight No Poetry Will Serve: Poems 2007-2010"), Carl >> Phillips ("Double Shadow") and Yusef Komunyakaa ("The Chameleon Couch"). The >> other finalists were Nikky Finney's "Head Off & Split" and Bruce Smith's >> "Devotions." >> >> Read more: >> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/10/12/national/a093751D >> 40.DTL#ixzz1aaxqfBCk >> ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Oct 12 18:01:10 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 18:01:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience In-Reply-To: References: <11397683.1318370944941.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <8CE574195967BAF-1504-27E04@webmail-m004.sysops.aol.com> Connie, sounds like a marvelous community for writers and audience where you are. In Connecticut there has been a long-running summer festival/series called Sunken Garden. http://www.hillstead.org/activities/poetry_performseries.html (You probably remember this from your brief stint in the area.) It really is a great summer reading series featuring poets of national reputation as well as those more locally familiar. The evening readings are held outdoors, weather permiting, in a beautiful walled garden on the lovely grounds of the Hillstead Museum in Farmington CT. Each performance begins with music (jazz, classical, folk, etc.). The crowds are very large (in the hundreds), so large they charge for parking and need volunteers to direct traffic in & out parking areas on the estate property. It may be the music and the fine outdoor atmosphere that draws people, as much as it is the poetry, because it doesn't seem that this large summer audience really flows over into the other local venues that feature poetry (like the college/university series, the coffee shop and arts center series hereabouts). Not sure why this is, but it is the case from my observation. You really don't see much of the lawn-chair & blanket crowd that comes out for the Sunken Garden series attending readings at other local venues, even when it's a poet of some renown who is reading at one of the other local venues. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Connie Voisine To: NewPoetry List Sent: Tue, Oct 11, 2011 7:09 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience it could also be that we have many people in our community who onsider themselves writers whether or not they've been verified by cademia or traditional publication. why so many? i think it's because of the stellar outreach efforts over he past 45 years by the following local writers: joe somoza, robert oswell, antonya nelson, keith wilson, denise chavez and kevin cilvoy. they have been consistent in offering people access to riting through community workshops (in people's homes, at a senior enter, etc.), the reading series that i inherited (which features isiting writer receptions in people's houses after readings that nyone can attend and they do), and a wonderful regional Border Book estival, chavez's baby and she gets everyone involved, believe me. nd it's all free.it does help to be the only show in town on a friday ight, but still i think a climate has been created by the people i amed above. anyone who comes to read here is very happy with the xperience. connie ps. doggerel, i know, is a form, but it is often used to indicate a ierarchy in poetry. On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 4:09 PM, wrote: Small university town within easy drive of larger places that offer very ittle in the way of poetry readings, which may be why you're getting bigger rowds than most events at the high-profile Tucson or Bisbee poetry festivals. I lived in a part of Massachusetts where the local auction houses drew big rowds every week, though very few people actually bid. In winter there's not uch to do and the roads to elsewhere are a pain in the ass. So auctions were oth theater and social life. Doggerel doesn't just mean bad, by the way. There are some wonderful comic oems written intentionally in doggerel. The locus classicus is probably udibras. Best, Mark -----Original Message----- >From: Connie Voisine >Sent: Oct 11, 2011 11:35 AM >To: NewPoetry List >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has mallaudience > >Bob-- > >i like to think of poetry in terms of the language of food activists. >it's a "locovore" culture, meaning that books are hand sold--i don't >think most poetry books are bought by people who haven't met the >writer and/or heard them read. rather than resenting that idea, i >embrace it. i like the idea that poems move from person to person with >human bodies doing that lovely labor. > >why do i enjoy this model? it's not corporate, not one bit, and the >models of productivity don't (and therefore shouldn't) apply. i never >entered into poetry thinking about fame or wealth but more about the >great life it's given me and that i can, as a writer and teacher, >participate in. without it i and a bunch of other people would have >been quite sad and i certainly would not have the life i have today. >maybe the 240 people came to feel better about the hunger situation in >our community, but it was a magical night during which i had a lot of >conversations about poetry. with a chemist from my university, with a >number of young writers, with the foodbank director, etc. the next >day, i had a wonderful breakfast with the writers where we talked >about conceptions of disability and the role of art, the problems with >institutialization of art, and what writers we liked to read. i can't >be cynical about any of that. > >i am not a pollyanna, not even close. however, i will not use terms >such as doggerel except in private (a girl has her own tastes and >preferences). poetry is a cultural practice and by prioritizing that, >i feel poetry will stay very much alive. it's living in a small town >called las cruces in the desert in new mexico. > >connie > >On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 9:12 AM, bob grumman wrote: >> Poetry >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Connie Voisine >> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:42 AM >> To: NewPoetry List >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small >> audience >> >> dear all-- >> >> i run a series in back-desert new mexico and we have readers come >> about every other week during the school year. we regularly have 100 >> people at our readings, coming to hear poetry! i know it's nice being >> the only show in town, but there's always tv, right? at a benefit >> reading (for hunger) this weekend, we had 240 people listening to >> readers from the new disability poetry anthology "Beauty is a Verb" >> (Sheila Black, Jim Ferris, Kara Dorris, and Jennifer Bartlett) and >> Juliana Spahr. Who says poetry is dying? let me at 'em! >> >> connie >> >> Sorry, Connie, but being about the only participant at New-Poetry who looks >> at things analytically, I have to wonder what drew your 240, the poetry or >> the feel-goodness of doing something for hunger. Aside from that, a single >> event or lots of events at a single location can't tell us much. Each event >> needs analysis. I fear I will always remain convinced that serious poetry, >> like serious mathematics, will never interest more than the few, for very >> similar reasons. Cheating, by referring to a single fact, I would advance >> as evidence my local Books-a-Million, which has lots of books and is quite >> nice, in my community of around 50,000 (I think): it has one shelf of poetry >> collections holding about a fifth as many books as the stack of the latest >> best-selling novel in the front of the store, and not looking to me like >> there's much turn-over of its when I return to it on my occasional visits. >> The store also has over a hundred different magazines for sale. I do think >> Poetry is one of them, but they stock only two or three copies of each >> issue. And Poetry?s poetry is about as low in seriousness as poetry can >> drop and still be called serious. A better fact is how little space >> periodicals of any circulation devote to poetry. My community does have two >> or three poetry readings a month, but they are mostly social gatherings, and >> rarely draw more than twenty people, most of them poets, but very few of >> them serious poets, even by the standards of New-Poetry?doggerelists and >> Hallmarkers. >> >> --Bob >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > >-- >Connie Voisine >Associate Professor of English >New Mexico State University >cvoisine at nmsu.edu >575-646-2027 >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- onnie Voisine ssociate Professor of English ew Mexico State University voisine at nmsu.edu 75-646-2027 ______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From almaginnes at aol.com Wed Oct 12 19:11:26 2011 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 19:11:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Natl Book Award nominees In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CE574B66DB94FB-13EC-111B1@webmail-m163.sysops.aol.com> I kind of thought Komunyakaa peaked with Thieves of Paradise, but I thought this last book was a nice return to form. I haven't read a new book of Rich's in probably 15 years. I agree about Phillips. He's very skilled but not my thing at all. -----Original Message----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry Sent: Wed, Oct 12, 2011 5:49 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Natl Book Award nominees I?ve fallen way behind in my Rich & Komunyakaa reading. In Komunyakaa?s case, it was because I started to like his work less and less after Dien Cai Dau* and *Neon Vernacular*. With Carl Philips I?ve never finished a book?just not my cup of tea. But as usual there are not only books on the nomination list I haven?t read, but a poet I?ve never read, and may not even have heard of?in this case Nikky Finney. So I?m casting my imaginary vote for the only book on the list that I?ve actually read and loved: Bruce Smith?s Devotions. Surprised not to see Dean Young?s recent one nominated. I think it may be his best one yet. On 10/12/11 4:30 PM, "almaginnes at aol.com" wrote: Well, I enjoyed Komunyakaa and Smith's books. I haven't read the others. -----Original Message----- On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 1:55 PM, wrote: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/10/12/national/a093751D40.DTL the poetry panel selected some of the biggest names in the field, including the 82-year-old Rich ("Tonight No Poetry Will Serve: Poems 2007-2010"), Carl Phillips ("Double Shadow") and Yusef Komunyakaa ("The Chameleon Couch"). The other finalists were Nikky Finney's "Head Off & Split" and Bruce Smith's "Devotions." Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2011/10/12/national/a093751D40.DTL#ixzz1aaxqfBCk ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Oct 12 19:30:25 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 19:30:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. Message-ID: <8CE574E0D8E234C-1630-102ED@webmail-m164.sysops.aol.com> http://jeffreyelevine.com/2011/10/12/on-making-the-poetry-manuscript/ The Poetry Manuscript: Arts and Crafts Here, adapted from my article in the 2007 issue of the AWP Job List (there titled Thirteen Ways of Looking at the Poetry Manuscript: Some Ideas on Creation and Order) is a revised and updated advice on making a book out of your individual poems, given as one who reads three-to-four thousand manuscripts a year. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Wed Oct 12 23:48:55 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 12 Oct 2011 22:48:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. In-Reply-To: <8CE574E0D8E234C-1630-102ED@webmail-m164.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE574E0D8E234C-1630-102ED@webmail-m164.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Such advice suggests why so many little volumes of verse seem so dreary. I suppose that if one is reading three or four thousand MSS a year one is tempted to tame the beast somehow or other. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 6:30 PM, wrote: > http://jeffreyelevine.com/2011/10/12/on-making-the-poetry-manuscript/ > ** > *The Poetry Manuscript: Arts and Crafts > * > Here, adapted from my article in the 2007 issue of the AWP Job List (there > titled *Thirteen Ways of Looking at the Poetry Manuscript:** Some Ideas on > Creation and Order*) is a revised and updated advice on making a book out > of your individual poems, given as one who reads three-to-four thousand > manuscripts a year. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From millb at aol.com Thu Oct 13 00:00:54 2011 From: millb at aol.com (Millicent Borges Accardi) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 00:00:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. In-Reply-To: References: <8CE574E0D8E234C-1630-102ED@webmail-m164.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CE5773D6A9C04D-1758-2B82D@webmail-m002.sysops.aol.com> That's 400 mss a month. Every month? Gosh I don't know whether to be impressed or saddened by the assembly line-seeming process. I guess, like with student papers, a person would tend to give the same advice, especially when reading that many! Perhaps that's where we get this rubbish about every poetry book having to have "a theme." What happened to books that just had poems in them? Some terrific poetry collections and short story collections from the past had no underlying theme or string to tie the individual pieces together, other than style and perhaps a few solid elements. I am so sick of students adopting a theme just because someone told them they needed to. Like, I know. I'm going to write a series of poems about traffic signs or chemical names or the oceans of the world. What rot. Now, of course IF you have an obsession or are drawn to a theme or a subject matter and it all works out, that is an entirely different story. Mill -----Original Message----- From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thu, Oct 13, 2011 5:49 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. Such advice suggests why so many little volumes of verse seem so dreary. I suppose that if one is reading three or four thousand MSS a year one is tempted to tame the beast somehow or other. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 6:30 PM, wrote: http://jeffreyelevine.com/2011/10/12/on-making-the-poetry-manuscript/ The Poetry Manuscript: Arts and Crafts Here, adapted from my article in the 2007 issue of the AWP Job List (there titled Thirteen Ways of Looking at the Poetry Manuscript: Some Ideas on Creation and Order) is a revised and updated advice on making a book out of your individual poems, given as one who reads three-to-four thousand manuscripts a year. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Oct 13 10:20:31 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:20:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. In-Reply-To: <8CE5773D6A9C04D-1758-2B82D@webmail-m002.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE574E0D8E234C-1630-102ED@webmail-m164.sysops.aol.com> <8CE5773D6A9C04D-1758-2B82D@webmail-m002.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CE57CA662EC70A-1750-22362@webmail-m085.sysops.aol.com> Everyone knows all you need is 3 excellent blurbs, then it really doesn't matter what's inside the book. It's a done deal; sold. I guess throwing the loose sheaf up into the air in your living room, then picking up the scattered pages is not the best practice. Actually, based upon my reading m.o., I would suggest putting your best poems somewhere between the 1/3 mark and 2/3rds the way through the book, because that's where I'm likely to land when I crack open a new book and just read the first poem that I see there. If I like that one, I'll page back or forward a few pages and read another. Maybe read third one at random if I'm still unsure. If I'm sold on the poetry after this random sampling, I typically set the book aside so that I can later read the whole book from start to end. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Millicent Borges Accardi To: new-poetry Sent: Thu, Oct 13, 2011 12:09 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. That's 400 mss a month. Every month? Gosh I don't know whether to be impressed or saddened by the assembly line-seeming process. I guess, like with student papers, a person would tend to give the same advice, especially when reading that many! Perhaps that's where we get this rubbish about every poetry book having to have "a theme." What happened to books that just had poems in them? Some terrific poetry collections and short story collections from the past had no underlying theme or string to tie the individual pieces together, other than style and perhaps a few solid elements. I am so sick of students adopting a theme just because someone told them they needed to. Like, I know. I'm going to write a series of poems about traffic signs or chemical names or the oceans of the world. What rot. Now, of course IF you have an obsession or are drawn to a theme or a subject matter and it all works out, that is an entirely different story. Mill -----Original Message----- From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thu, Oct 13, 2011 5:49 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. Such advice suggests why so many little volumes of verse seem so dreary. I suppose that if one is reading three or four thousand MSS a year one is tempted to tame the beast somehow or other. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 6:30 PM, wrote: http://jeffreyelevine.com/2011/10/12/on-making-the-poetry-manuscript/ The Poetry Manuscript: Arts and Crafts Here, adapted from my article in the 2007 issue of the AWP Job List (there titled Thirteen Ways of Looking at the Poetry Manuscript: Some Ideas on Creation and Order) is a revised and updated advice on making a book out of your individual poems, given as one who reads three-to-four thousand manuscripts a year. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu Thu Oct 13 11:05:56 2011 From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:05:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. In-Reply-To: <8CE57CA662EC70A-1750-22362@webmail-m085.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE574E0D8E234C-1630-102ED@webmail-m164.sysops.aol.com> <8CE5773D6A9C04D-1758-2B82D@webmail-m002.sysops.aol.com> <8CE57CA662EC70A-1750-22362@webmail-m085.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <00e101cc89b9$9ce1f1b0$d6a5d510$@ilstu.edu> At a reading in July 2010, Andrew Motion said, ruefully, that he and every poet he knew spent considerable labor trying to organize their books?to provide the experience of reading a *book* and not just individual poems. But, alas, he said, not a single reader he knew, poet or non-, actually *read* a book of poems that way. I suspect he?s right on both counts. Bill Morgan From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of jforjames at aol.com Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2011 9:21 AM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. Everyone knows all you need is 3 excellent blurbs, then it really doesn't matter what's inside the book. It's a done deal; sold. I guess throwing the loose sheaf up into the air in your living room, then picking up the scattered pages is not the best practice. Actually, based upon my reading m.o., I would suggest putting your best poems somewhere between the 1/3 mark and 2/3rds the way through the book, because that's where I'm likely to land when I crack open a new book and just read the first poem that I see there. If I like that one, I'll page back or forward a few pages and read another. Maybe read third one at random if I'm still unsure. If I'm sold on the poetry after this random sampling, I typically set the book aside so that I can later read the whole book from start to end. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Millicent Borges Accardi To: new-poetry Sent: Thu, Oct 13, 2011 12:09 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. That's 400 mss a month. Every month? Gosh I don't know whether to be impressed or saddened by the assembly line-seeming process. I guess, like with student papers, a person would tend to give the same advice, especially when reading that many! Perhaps that's where we get this rubbish about every poetry book having to have "a theme." What happened to books that just had poems in them? Some terrific poetry collections and short story collections from the past had no underlying theme or string to tie the individual pieces together, other than style and perhaps a few solid elements. I am so sick of students adopting a theme just because someone told them they needed to. Like, I know. I'm going to write a series of poems about traffic signs or chemical names or the oceans of the world. What rot. Now, of course IF you have an obsession or are drawn to a theme or a subject matter and it all works out, that is an entirely different story. Mill -----Original Message----- From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thu, Oct 13, 2011 5:49 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. Such advice suggests why so many little volumes of verse seem so dreary. I suppose that if one is reading three or four thousand MSS a year one is tempted to tame the beast somehow or other. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) , Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole ; Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; The Sonnet Project ; G(e)nome ; Winter Journey ; Eclipse ; The Dance of the Red Swan ; Transparencies & Projections On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 6:30 PM, wrote: http://jeffreyelevine.com/2011/10/12/on-making-the-poetry-manuscript/ The Poetry Manuscript: Arts and Crafts Here, adapted from my article in the 2007 issue of the AWP Job List (there titled Thirteen Ways of Looking at the Poetry Manuscript: Some Ideas on Creation and Order) is a revised and updated advice on making a book out of your individual poems, given as one who reads three-to-four thousand manuscripts a year. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From seamascain at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 11:19:01 2011 From: seamascain at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9amas_Cain?=) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:19:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A poet's novel Message-ID: _____________________________________ Launching in conjunction with the IMRAM Festival in Dublin, Ireland : A poet's novel ... "The Dangerous Islands" by S?amas Cain // and with a Preface by the poet Sheila E. Murphy // is published by The Red Jasper * The.Red.Jasper at gmail.com Dr. Kit Fryatt, Curator // ISBN 978-0-9563001-1-9 OCLC WorldCat : 745909186 For comments on this novel by Alan Sondheim, Anny Ballardini, Gabriel Rosenstock, JL Williams, Jeff Harrison, Dr. John M. Bennett, Liam Carson, Raymond Deane, Thomas Goggin, Professor W.D. Hamilton, and Yoyo Yogasmana, go to ... http://www.freewebs.com/seamascain/danger.htm And for comments on this novel by Dr. Allan Antliff, Eileen R. Tabios, Dr. Francis Carroll, Jeffrey Side, John M. Bradley, Nicholas O'Brien, Peter L. Freeman, Rick Allard, Shozo Shimamoto, and Steve Dalachinsky, go to ... http://www.freewebs.com/seamascain/change.htm For a collection of ?manifestoes and fragments? written by S?amas Cain during the time of Civil War in Northern Ireland, 1965-1998, go to ... http://www.freewebs.com/seamascain/apps/documents/ "The Dangerous Islands" is available from GREGORY CARR in Dublin ... http://www.readireland.com THE LOFT BOOKSHOP in Dublin ... http://theloftbookshop.com HOUSMANS BOOKSHOP in London ... http://www.housmans.com/ BOEKIE WOEKIE in Amsterdam ... http://boewoe.home.xs4all.nl/ MAGERS & QUINN in Minneapolis ... http://www.magersandquinn.com/index.php?main_page=index And for additional information, go to ... http://www.freewebs.com/seamascain _____________________________________ From jforjames at aol.com Thu Oct 13 11:20:04 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 11:20:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] LitMag Watch: not enough night Message-ID: <8CE57D2B7C1246C-1750-22E1C@webmail-m085.sysops.aol.com> http://www.naropa.edu/notenoughnight/index.htm This issue is dedicated to the memory of Janine Pommy Vega and Akilah Oliver. Introduction by Junior Burke Cover Art :: Scrambled by Samuel Jablon -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Oct 13 11:23:53 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 11:23:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. In-Reply-To: <8CE57CA662EC70A-1750-22362@webmail-m085.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE574E0D8E234C-1630-102ED@webmail-m164.sysops.aol.com><8CE5773D6A9C04D-1758-2B82D@webmail-m002.sysops.aol.com> <8CE57CA662EC70A-1750-22362@webmail-m085.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Surprise, I don?t find Levine?s advice bad, although not particular brilliant. He clearly is talking about the poetry of you know where only, but the advice would apply to almost any kind of poetry. I do think a collection should try for unity, but the unity can be loose?probably should be loose?with two or three sudden contrasts. In short, I think the poems in your book should feel right together. All I disagreed with were the warnings against adverbs, adjectives and abstractions. Don?t use ?eternity,? he says, because ?the nineteenth century is over.? My response: use it, the twentieth century is over, so avoiding it is now the clich? of the time. I use it and similar words all the time. I think I can get away with it because I use it in otherwise ?advanced? visio-mathematical poems, not standard poems. As for adverbs and adjectives, the obvious thing to do is use them effectively; ditto for nouns, verbs, prepositions, conjunctions. Interjections. The main thing, which he forgot, is to not do anything . . . I don?t have to go on, do I. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 11:34:01 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:34:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. In-Reply-To: References: <8CE574E0D8E234C-1630-102ED@webmail-m164.sysops.aol.com> <8CE5773D6A9C04D-1758-2B82D@webmail-m002.sysops.aol.com> <8CE57CA662EC70A-1750-22362@webmail-m085.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Well, you don't have to, but you do. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 10:23 AM, bob grumman wrote: > Surprise, I don?t find Levine?s advice bad, although not particular > brilliant. He clearly is talking about the poetry of you know where only, > but the advice would apply to almost any kind of poetry. I do think a > collection should try for unity, but the unity can be loose?probably * > should* be loose?with two or three sudden contrasts. In short, I think > the poems in your book should feel right together. All I disagreed with > were the warnings against adverbs, adjectives and abstractions. Don?t use > ?eternity,? he says, because ?the nineteenth century is over.? My response: > use it, the twentieth century is over, so avoiding it is now the clich? of > the time. I use it and similar words all the time. I think I can get away > with it because I use it in otherwise ?advanced? visio-mathematical poems, > not standard poems. As for adverbs and adjectives, the obvious thing to do > is use them effectively; ditto for nouns, verbs, prepositions, > conjunctions. Interjections. The main thing, which he forgot, is to not do > anything . . . I don?t have to go on, do I. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From almaginnes at aol.com Thu Oct 13 11:34:33 2011 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 11:34:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. In-Reply-To: References: <8CE574E0D8E234C-1630-102ED@webmail-m164.sysops.aol.com><8CE5773D6A9C04D-1758-2B82D@webmail-m002.sysops.aol.com><8CE57CA662EC70A-1750-22362@webmail-m085.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CE57D4BD914E83-177C-2452B@webmail-d048.sysops.aol.com> I have to say that I'm growing a bit weary of this age's penchant for unified collections. I realize they make for good selling points--"This is a collection of poems about the impact of the Spanish American war on a small town in Idaho" or "This is a collection that traces the influence of the Underground Railroad on a punk rock band in the early 1990's"--but I prefer to discover my own path through a collection of poems and to make my own connections. -----Original Message----- From: bob grumman To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:24 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. Surprise, I don?t find Levine?s advice bad, although not particular brilliant. He clearly is talking about the poetry of you know where only, but the advice would apply to almost any kind of poetry. I do think a collection should try for unity, but the unity can be loose?probably should be loose?with two or three sudden contrasts. In short, I think the poems in your book should feel right together. All I disagreed with were the warnings against adverbs, adjectives and abstractions. Don?t use ?eternity,? he says, because ?the nineteenth century is over.? My response: use it, the twentieth century is over, so avoiding it is now the clich? of the time. I use it and similar words all the time. I think I can get away with it because I use it in otherwise ?advanced? visio-mathematical poems, not standard poems. As for adverbs and adjectives, the obvious thing to do is use them effectively; ditto for nouns, verbs, prepositions, conjunctions. Interjections. The main thing, which he forgot, is to not do anything . . . I don?t have to go on, do I. --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Oct 13 11:43:17 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 11:43:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. In-Reply-To: References: <8CE574E0D8E234C-1630-102ED@webmail-m164.sysops.aol.com><8CE5773D6A9C04D-1758-2B82D@webmail-m002.sysops.aol.com><8CE57CA662EC70A-1750-22362@webmail-m085.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CE57D5F5A76290-1750-2322C@webmail-m085.sysops.aol.com> No 'eternity'?...Times aeon't what is used to be. -----Original Message----- From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:34 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. Well, you don't have to, but you do. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 10:23 AM, bob grumman wrote: Surprise, I don?t find Levine?s advice bad, although not particular brilliant. He clearly is talking about the poetry of you know where only, but the advice would apply to almost any kind of poetry. I do think a collection should try for unity, but the unity can be loose?probably should be loose?with two or three sudden contrasts. In short, I think the poems in your book should feel right together. All I disagreed with were the warnings against adverbs, adjectives and abstractions. Don?t use ?eternity,? he says, because ?the nineteenth century is over.? My response: use it, the twentieth century is over, so avoiding it is now the clich? of the time. I use it and similar words all the time. I think I can get away with it because I use it in otherwise ?advanced? visio-mathematical poems, not standard poems. As for adverbs and adjectives, the obvious thing to do is use them effectively; ditto for nouns, verbs, prepositions, conjunctions. Interjections. The main thing, which he forgot, is to not do anything . . . I don?t have to go on, do I. --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Oct 13 11:46:34 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 11:46:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Getty Villa will present Poetics and Plays Message-ID: <8CE57D66B343AB2-1750-232CB@webmail-m085.sysops.aol.com> http://www.theatermania.com/los-angeles/news/10-2011/david-greenspan-to-perform-poetics-and-plays-at-ge_42458.html Getty Villa will present Poetics and Plays, conceived and performed by Obie Award winner David Greenspan, November 11-13. The solo play unites two of the most influential and antithetical treatises ever composed on the nature of theater -- Aristotle's Poetics and Gertrude Stein's lecture Plays. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Thu Oct 13 12:23:41 2011 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 11:23:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. In-Reply-To: <00e101cc89b9$9ce1f1b0$d6a5d510$@ilstu.edu> Message-ID: I seldom read any book of poems from page one to the end, unless I suppose it?s a long narrative. Yet like many of my friends I do obsess over order and architecture when putting together a manuscript. Perhaps such obsession is like scaffolding that helps in the construction process but isn?t ultimately needed by or visible to the later user. Or maybe it?s more like iambic pentameter for someone who writes in that form?very helpful in keeping one?s language under control as well as provoking better revisions?but not something the common reader needs to think much about while reading. As for the practicalities of impressing an editor or screener, good luck. Some editors I know read the first 5 pages, the last 5, and 5 random ones in the middle of the manuscript, before deciding if the manuscript should go into the ?further consideration? pile. Others just read the first couple pages, and ask themselve if they feel compelled to go forward. Other skip around. Just last week I had a conversation with the editor of a major book contest, who reported that he reads ?some part? of every book submitted. But he had no fixed scheme for doing so. I really don?t think you can game the system in this way. Russell Edson?s tables of contents have always pleased me. He tends to organize his books alphabetically by poem title. On 10/13/11 10:05 AM, "Bill Morgan" wrote: > At a reading in July 2010, Andrew Motion said, ruefully, that he and every > poet he knew spent considerable labor trying to organize their books?to > provide the experience of reading a *book* and not just individual poems.? > But, alas, he said, not a single reader he knew, poet or non-, actually *read* > a book of poems that way.? I suspect he?s right on both counts. > > Bill Morgan > -- ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 13:24:20 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:24:20 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. In-Reply-To: <8CE57D5F5A76290-1750-2322C@webmail-m085.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE574E0D8E234C-1630-102ED@webmail-m164.sysops.aol.com> <8CE5773D6A9C04D-1758-2B82D@webmail-m002.sysops.aol.com> <8CE57CA662EC70A-1750-22362@webmail-m085.sysops.aol.com> <8CE57D5F5A76290-1750-2322C@webmail-m085.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I miss the days/nights of eon signs. - Jim On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 8:43 AM, wrote: > No 'eternity'?...Times aeon't what is used to be. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Halvard Johnson > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:34 am > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. > > Well, you don't have to, but you do. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 10:23 AM, bob grumman wrote: > >> Surprise, I don?t find Levine?s advice bad, although not particular >> brilliant. He clearly is talking about the poetry of you know where only, >> but the advice would apply to almost any kind of poetry. I do think a >> collection should try for unity, but the unity can be loose?probably * >> should* be loose?with two or three sudden contrasts. In short, I think >> the poems in your book should feel right together. All I disagreed with >> were the warnings against adverbs, adjectives and abstractions. Don?t use >> ?eternity,? he says, because ?the nineteenth century is over.? My response: >> use it, the twentieth century is over, so avoiding it is now the clich? of >> the time. I use it and similar words all the time. I think I can get away >> with it because I use it in otherwise ?advanced? visio-mathematical poems, >> not standard poems. As for adverbs and adjectives, the obvious thing to do >> is use them effectively; ditto for nouns, verbs, prepositions, >> conjunctions. Interjections. The main thing, which he forgot, is to not do >> anything . . . I don?t have to go on, do I. >> >> --Bob >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 13:25:37 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 12:25:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. In-Reply-To: References: <00e101cc89b9$9ce1f1b0$d6a5d510$@ilstu.edu> Message-ID: Ashbery's done that too in a couple books. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 11:23 AM, David Graham wrote: > I seldom read any book of poems from page one to the end, unless I > suppose it?s a long narrative. Yet like many of my friends I do obsess over > order and architecture when putting together a manuscript. Perhaps such > obsession is like scaffolding that helps in the construction process but > isn?t ultimately needed by or visible to the later user. Or maybe it?s more > like iambic pentameter for someone who writes in that form?very helpful in > keeping one?s language under control as well as provoking better > revisions?but not something the common reader needs to think much about > while reading. > > As for the practicalities of impressing an editor or screener, good luck. > Some editors I know read the first 5 pages, the last 5, and 5 random ones > in the middle of the manuscript, before deciding if the manuscript should go > into the ?further consideration? pile. Others just read the first couple > pages, and ask themselve if they feel compelled to go forward. Other skip > around. Just last week I had a conversation with the editor of a major book > contest, who reported that he reads ?some part? of every book submitted. > But he had no fixed scheme for doing so. > > I really don?t think you can game the system in this way. > > Russell Edson?s tables of contents have always pleased me. He tends to > organize his books alphabetically by poem title. > > > > > On 10/13/11 10:05 AM, "Bill Morgan" wrote: > > At a reading in July 2010, Andrew Motion said, ruefully, that he and every > poet he knew spent considerable labor trying to organize their books?to > provide the experience of reading a **book** and not just individual > poems. But, alas, he said, not a single reader he knew, poet or non-, > actually **read** a book of poems that way. I suspect he?s right on both > counts. > > Bill Morgan > > > > -- > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Thu Oct 13 14:04:40 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:04:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E972838.1090308@louisiana.edu> I'm with David here--it's a misplacement of priorities to structure a book to impress contest judges, who have short attention spans and other things to do. I do think that some readers like the sense of continuity (though it's often ephemeral) in books centered on a theme or image or idea. Whether that's new or old I can't say, and how much it matters I can't say. But I can say that I had a wonderfully instructive time organizing my first book. Someone here suggested tossing the MS up in the air and gathering the pages together. I arrived at a similar state of affairs (my poems scattered all over my floor) in a weirdly methodical way. They really seemed, to me, just _the poems I'd written and become invested in since I'd become serious about writing poems_. But I scattered them all around me in a circle (I like to think: as if they'd blown out of a volcanoe!), and gradually, intuitively, started to scrape them into piles. As the process went on, I noticed some new relationships and yanked some of the piles apart to start new ones. And repeat. And repeat. And noticed connections, as if I were trying to fill a flush, and pulled those together. (No doubt there were also two and three of a kind, here and there four to a straight.) And I combined piles when I realized I was finding, or creating, unnecessary distinctions. And when it was all done, I had two piles, each built around a compact set of images I'd been working through for ten years, without any sense that that's what I'd been doing. (My editor, of course, bless him for a princely soul, rearranged most of it and added a section or two anyway, but who cares: I learned something important about my own process.) My most recent MS ("am amygdala-ravaging work of cosmically ingenious wordplay not witnessed since Jefferson and Adams matched insults over a death-to-the-loser badminton match") began as a distinct construction on an emotional theme, and was patterned out for a poem a week over the course of a year. No editor every professed the slightest interest, so I savaged the thing (or "refined my thinking") and found another, much rougher set of structures in hacking it down and combining its residues with more recent poems. The one editor who wanted to publish it (it fell through, curse him for a scatophagous toad) felt that it needed to be chopped up and rearranged so as to emphasize a pattern and theme _he_ liked in it. Screw that. Anybody have any use for my foul papers? Cheers, Jerry On 10/13/2011 11:23 AM, David Graham wrote: > I seldom read any book of poems from page one to the end, unless I > suppose it's a long narrative. Yet like many of my friends I do > obsess over order and architecture when putting together a manuscript. > Perhaps such obsession is like scaffolding that helps in the > construction process but isn't ultimately needed by or visible to the > later user. Or maybe it's more like iambic pentameter for someone who > writes in that form---very helpful in keeping one's language under > control as well as provoking better revisions---but not something the > common reader needs to think much about while reading. > > As for the practicalities of impressing an editor or screener, good > luck. Some editors I know read the first 5 pages, the last 5, and 5 > random ones in the middle of the manuscript, before deciding if the > manuscript should go into the "further consideration" pile. Others > just read the first couple pages, and ask themselve if they feel > compelled to go forward. Other skip around. Just last week I had a > conversation with the editor of a major book contest, who reported > that he reads "some part" of every book submitted. But he had no > fixed scheme for doing so. > > I really don't think you can game the system in this way. > > Russell Edson's tables of contents have always pleased me. He tends > to organize his books alphabetically by poem title. > > > > On 10/13/11 10:05 AM, "Bill Morgan" wrote: > > At a reading in July 2010, Andrew Motion said, ruefully, that he > and every poet he knew spent considerable labor trying to organize > their books---to provide the experience of reading a **book** and > not just individual poems. But, alas, he said, not a single > reader he knew, poet or non-, actually **read** a book of poems > that way. I suspect he's right on both counts. > > Bill Morgan > > > -- > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- ________________________________________________________ Jerry McGuire English Department Box 44691 University of Louisiana at Lafayette Lafayette LA 70504-4691 337-482-5478 Creative Writing Website: http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html ______________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fox.skip at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 14:07:19 2011 From: fox.skip at gmail.com (Skip Fox) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:07:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. In-Reply-To: References: <00e101cc89b9$9ce1f1b0$d6a5d510$@ilstu.edu> Message-ID: As a reader for a press, I try to read every ms. through. (Of course I'm always behind.) The only exceptions have been obvious rejections. I hope readers for presses would do this for me. Constructing a book, finding perhaps a narrative of lyrics going from consolation to disconsolation and 1/2 back, is extraordinarily important. Yeats, if I remember correctly, was one of the first who, beside those writing books as books (Blake), to order his lyrics of the past x-number of years, eliminate poems, write new ones, creating a larger aesthetic unit, the book. It makes perfect sense. With one small exception I've only written books as books but confronted with the task, I'd clear the decks on my living room floor and go at it. Not necessarily with logic, surely with intuition. On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 11:23 AM, David Graham wrote: > I seldom read any book of poems from page one to the end, unless I suppose > it?s a long narrative. Yet like many of my friends I do obsess over order > and architecture when putting together a manuscript. Perhaps such obsession > is like scaffolding that helps in the construction process but isn?t > ultimately needed by or visible to the later user. Or maybe it?s more like > iambic pentameter for someone who writes in that form?very helpful in > keeping one?s language under control as well as provoking better > revisions?but not something the common reader needs to think much about > while reading. > > As for the practicalities of impressing an editor or screener, good luck. > Some editors I know read the first 5 pages, the last 5, and 5 random ones > in the middle of the manuscript, before deciding if the manuscript should go > into the ?further consideration? pile. Others just read the first couple > pages, and ask themselve if they feel compelled to go forward. Other skip > around. Just last week I had a conversation with the editor of a major book > contest, who reported that he reads ?some part? of every book submitted. > But he had no fixed scheme for doing so. > > I really don?t think you can game the system in this way. > > Russell Edson?s tables of contents have always pleased me. He tends to > organize his books alphabetically by poem title. > > > > On 10/13/11 10:05 AM, "Bill Morgan" wrote: > > At a reading in July 2010, Andrew Motion said, ruefully, that he and every > poet he knew spent considerable labor trying to organize their books?to > provide the experience of reading a **book** and not just individual > poems. But, alas, he said, not a single reader he knew, poet or non-, > actually **read** a book of poems that way. I suspect he?s right on both > counts. > > Bill Morgan > > > > -- > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fox.skip at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 14:09:37 2011 From: fox.skip at gmail.com (Skip Fox) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:09:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. In-Reply-To: References: <00e101cc89b9$9ce1f1b0$d6a5d510$@ilstu.edu> Message-ID: WSurprised how much I agree with Jerry. (We must have been writing at the same time.) On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 1:07 PM, Skip Fox wrote: > As a reader for a press, I try to read every ms. through. (Of course I'm > always behind.) The only exceptions have been obvious rejections. I hope > readers for presses would do this for me. > > Constructing a book, finding perhaps a narrative of lyrics going from > consolation to disconsolation and 1/2 back, is extraordinarily important. > Yeats, if I remember correctly, was one of the first who, beside those > writing books as books (Blake), to order his lyrics of the past x-number of > years, eliminate poems, write new ones, creating a larger aesthetic unit, > the book. It makes perfect sense. With one small exception I've only written > books as books but confronted with the task, I'd clear the decks on my > living room floor and go at it. Not necessarily with logic, surely with > intuition. > > > > > On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 11:23 AM, David Graham wrote: > >> I seldom read any book of poems from page one to the end, unless I >> suppose it?s a long narrative. Yet like many of my friends I do obsess over >> order and architecture when putting together a manuscript. Perhaps such >> obsession is like scaffolding that helps in the construction process but >> isn?t ultimately needed by or visible to the later user. Or maybe it?s more >> like iambic pentameter for someone who writes in that form?very helpful in >> keeping one?s language under control as well as provoking better >> revisions?but not something the common reader needs to think much about >> while reading. >> >> As for the practicalities of impressing an editor or screener, good luck. >> Some editors I know read the first 5 pages, the last 5, and 5 random ones >> in the middle of the manuscript, before deciding if the manuscript should go >> into the ?further consideration? pile. Others just read the first couple >> pages, and ask themselve if they feel compelled to go forward. Other skip >> around. Just last week I had a conversation with the editor of a major book >> contest, who reported that he reads ?some part? of every book submitted. >> But he had no fixed scheme for doing so. >> >> I really don?t think you can game the system in this way. >> >> Russell Edson?s tables of contents have always pleased me. He tends to >> organize his books alphabetically by poem title. >> >> >> >> On 10/13/11 10:05 AM, "Bill Morgan" wrote: >> >> At a reading in July 2010, Andrew Motion said, ruefully, that he and every >> poet he knew spent considerable labor trying to organize their books?to >> provide the experience of reading a **book** and not just individual >> poems. But, alas, he said, not a single reader he knew, poet or non-, >> actually **read** a book of poems that way. I suspect he?s right on both >> counts. >> >> Bill Morgan >> >> >> >> -- >> >> ======================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd at ripon.edu >> >> Home Page: >> http://web.me.com/drjazz >> >> Poetry Library: >> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >> ========================================== >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Thu Oct 13 14:19:10 2011 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:19:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 10/13/11 1:07 PM, "Skip Fox" wrote: > As a reader for a press, I try to read every ms. through. (Of course I'm > always behind.) The only exceptions have been obvious rejections. I hope > readers for presses would do this for me. > ?========================== > > I understand that the major book contests these days (AWP Award, etc.) can > easily draw 800-1000 or more submissions per year. Obviously, it would be > good if someone read every manuscript cover to cover, but I doubt that that > ever happens the case of these big contests. > > One year I was a screener for the AWP, and I had over 200 manuscripts in my > pile to sift through. There were five screeners, each of us instructed to > send on 5 books to the final judge, who read all 25 (presumably) in their > entirety. > > I rapidly realized that it wasn?t really practical, in the time I was given, > to read the entirety of 200+ books. I also recognized that if my job was to > find the 5 books I liked best, it was not necessary to read the entirety of a > book that I knew, in the first two pages, wasn?t likely to be in the top 5. > Still, I made myself do it methodically: I read first 5 poems; last 5; and 5 > randomly from the middle, even when I already thought that the book stunk. > Not once did my mind change when reading the final 5 random poems, as a matter > of fact. > > Smaller presses are labors of love, and can probably afford to be more > thorough about things. > > -- ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Thu Oct 13 14:17:00 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 11:17:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. In-Reply-To: References: <00e101cc89b9$9ce1f1b0$d6a5d510$@ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <1318529820.4433.YahooMailNeo@web120524.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I never liked poetry books with a forced theme, and that's all I hear these days when the topic comes up, "First, you should find a theme."? Bah!? I'm more in line with Larkin's statement about ordering poems in a book: "I treat them like a music hall bill: you know, contrast, difference in length, the comic, the Irish tenor, bring on the girls." JohnJ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fox.skip at gmail.com Thu Oct 13 14:45:48 2011 From: fox.skip at gmail.com (Skip Fox) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:45:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. In-Reply-To: <1318529820.4433.YahooMailNeo@web120524.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <00e101cc89b9$9ce1f1b0$d6a5d510$@ilstu.edu> <1318529820.4433.YahooMailNeo@web120524.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes, of course. Not enough time for 200, but my job is more like 35-40 per year. I _have_ heard the horrendous amount of reading that readers for the National Book Award must do. I knew someone who read perhaps over 100 novels (maybe 200) in a single summer. I cannot imagine doing so, but deeply respect someone who does. Christian Bok was a reader for a top Canadian prize and spoke of a similar feat in a short period of time but had to read books in multiple genres (such was the nature of the affair). Bok was very proud of the fact he read each and every ms. On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 1:17 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: > I never liked poetry books with a forced theme, and that's all I hear > these days when the topic comes up, "First, you should find a theme." Bah! > I'm more in line with Larkin's statement about ordering poems in a book: "I > treat them like a music hall bill: you know, contrast, difference in length, > the comic, the Irish tenor, bring on the girls." > > JohnJ > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From millb at aol.com Thu Oct 13 15:03:07 2011 From: millb at aol.com (Millicent Borges Accardi) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 15:03:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. In-Reply-To: <8CE57D4BD914E83-177C-2452B@webmail-d048.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE574E0D8E234C-1630-102ED@webmail-m164.sysops.aol.com><8CE5773D6A9C04D-1758-2B82D@webmail-m002.sysops.aol.com><8CE57CA662EC70A-1750-22362@webmail-m085.sysops.aol.com> <8CE57D4BD914E83-177C-2452B@webmail-d048.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CE57F1E0D48A96-17A8-34DDF@webmail-m024.sysops.aol.com> I guess I am sunk since my latest book is called Injuring Eternity!~ Mill (Serving the Frankfurt book fair area since Tuesday) -----Original Message----- From: almaginnes To: new-poetry Sent: Thu, Oct 13, 2011 5:34 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. I have to say that I'm growing a bit weary of this age's penchant for unified collections. I realize they make for good selling points--"This is a collection of poems about the impact of the Spanish American war on a small town in Idaho" or "This is a collection that traces the influence of the Underground Railroad on a punk rock band in the early 1990's"--but I prefer to discover my own path through a collection of poems and to make my own connections. -----Original Message----- From: bob grumman To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thu, Oct 13, 2011 11:24 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. Surprise, I don?t find Levine?s advice bad, although not particular brilliant. He clearly is talking about the poetry of you know where only, but the advice would apply to almost any kind of poetry. I do think a collection should try for unity, but the unity can be loose?probably should be loose?with two or three sudden contrasts. In short, I think the poems in your book should feel right together. All I disagreed with were the warnings against adverbs, adjectives and abstractions. Don?t use ?eternity,? he says, because ?the nineteenth century is over.? My response: use it, the twentieth century is over, so avoiding it is now the clich? of the time. I use it and similar words all the time. I think I can get away with it because I use it in otherwise ?advanced? visio-mathematical poems, not standard poems. As for adverbs and adjectives, the obvious thing to do is use them effectively; ditto for nouns, verbs, prepositions, conjunctions. Interjections. The main thing, which he forgot, is to not do anything . . . I don?t have to go on, do I. --Bob _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Thu Oct 13 15:04:37 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 15:04:37 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. Message-ID: <16540057.1318532678282.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Thu Oct 13 16:32:54 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:32:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetryhas smallaudience In-Reply-To: <5ED0C2468B184DB2ABF613EFA26AA855@BobHP> Message-ID: <1318537974.50191.YahooMailClassic@web161914.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> & that's the way it should work. I want to design to smoothest, fastest, most beautiful speed mobile ever, a combination of Porshe/Jaguar, without seatbelts. In an imperfect world, I'll worry about the passengers later. --- On Wed, 10/12/11, bob grumman wrote: From: bob grumman Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetryhas smallaudience To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Wednesday, October 12, 2011, 3:39 PM ? ? From: Michael Snider Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 1:59 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetryhas smallaudience ? Mark, ? Bob comes as close as anyone I've ever encountered to valuing "innovation for its own sake," ? I was going to deny the validity of that but I realized that of course I do think that innovation is valuable for its own sake, for providing a new way to go that may or may not work but will help one by revealing a way to go or avoid going.? Similarly I value rhyme for its own sake, meter for its own sake, metaphor for its own sake.? Obviously, describing someone as valuing X for its own sake has come to mean valuing nothing but X.? Anyone who thinks I do is insane. ? --Bob -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Thu Oct 13 16:35:15 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:35:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetryhas smallaudience In-Reply-To: <1318537974.50191.YahooMailClassic@web161914.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1318538115.45100.YahooMailClassic@web161912.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Goddamn ... I want to design the smoothest ... --- On Thu, 10/13/11, stephen russell wrote: From: stephen russell Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetryhas smallaudience To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 4:32 PM & that's the way it should work. I want to design to smoothest, fastest, most beautiful speed mobile ever, a combination of Porshe/Jaguar, without seatbelts. In an imperfect world, I'll worry about the passengers later. --- On Wed, 10/12/11, bob grumman wrote: From: bob grumman Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetryhas smallaudience To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Wednesday, October 12, 2011, 3:39 PM ? ? From: Michael Snider Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2011 1:59 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetryhas smallaudience ? Mark, ? Bob comes as close as anyone I've ever encountered to valuing "innovation for its own sake," ? I was going to deny the validity of that but I realized that of course I do think that innovation is valuable for its own sake, for providing a new way to go that may or may not work but will help one by revealing a way to go or avoid going.? Similarly I value rhyme for its own sake, meter for its own sake, metaphor for its own sake.? Obviously, describing someone as valuing X for its own sake has come to mean valuing nothing but X.? Anyone who thinks I do is insane. ? --Bob -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Thu Oct 13 16:38:20 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 13:38:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience In-Reply-To: <16742168.1318443057143.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1318538300.37252.YahooMailClassic@web161913.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> "made new," as if seen for the first time. Perfect. --- On Wed, 10/12/11, junction at earthlink.net wrote: From: junction at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Wednesday, October 12, 2011, 2:10 PM #yiv993789666 body{font-family:Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:9pt;background-color:#ffffff;color:black;}In the eye of the beholder. I was contextualizing the well-known line from Williams. -----Original Message----- From: Michael Snider Sent: Oct 12, 2011 2:01 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience I almost forgot: your condescension does not become you. www.mikesnider.org On Oct 12, 2011, at 13:34, junction at earthlink.net wrote: Mike: I think you suffer from a basic, pretty common misunderstanding. Nobody beyond adolescence that I know of practices "innovation for its own sake." Even oulipeans and some language poets, who create constraints far more severe than the sonnet within which to work, are primarily interested in finding out what's to be learned in process. Most other "innovative" poetry is interested in process without prior contrivance--form created as the poem advances. Sometimes this can look pretty radical, sometimes not. But the poet has gone somewhere he or she couldn't anticipate, in form or content. The reader experiences that unfolding, "but you have to try real hard." In the process, something has been "made new," as if seen for the first time. Best, Mark I also strenuously object to your characterization of?the magazine?Poetry. It doesn't print poetry you consider innovative: so what? Innovation for its own sake has no more value than pentameter for its own sake. It doesn't print poetry you consider challenging: so what? Here's another difference between poetry and mathematics: in mathematics, once a problem has been solved or a conjecture proved or disproved, it may find a use in further mathematical exploration or in the solution of technical problems in, say, the construction of carbon sails for America's Cup racing boats; solutions to poetry's problems are never generalizable or useful, and they don't help write the next poem. ?Try writing a sonnet, Bob, in strict Spenserian form, in modern colloquial English. If you succeed (it doesn't have to be good, just formally successful), try writing another. And another. And another. It will get a little easier for a little while. But write a hundred of them, and the hundred and first will be no easier than was the seventieth. And what good ones there may be will each be?mysteriously unlike the others. www.mikesnider.org On Oct 11, 2011, at 11:12, "bob grumman" wrote: Poetry ? -----Original Message----- From: Connie Voisine Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:42 AM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience ? dear all-- ? i run a series in back-desert new mexico and we have readers come about every other week during the school year. we regularly have 100 people at our readings, coming to hear poetry! i know it's nice being the only show in town, but there's always tv, right? at a benefit reading (for hunger) this weekend, we had 240 people listening to readers from the new disability poetry anthology "Beauty is a Verb" (Sheila Black, Jim Ferris, Kara Dorris, and Jennifer Bartlett) and Juliana Spahr. Who says poetry is dying? let me at 'em! ? connie ? Sorry, Connie, but being about the only participant at New-Poetry who looks at things analytically, I have to wonder what drew your 240, the poetry or the feel-goodness of doing something for hunger.? Aside from that, a single event or lots of events at a single location can't tell us much.? Each event needs analysis.? I fear I will always remain convinced that serious poetry, like serious mathematics, will never interest more than the few, for very similar reasons.? Cheating, by referring to a single fact, I would advance as evidence my local Books-a-Million, which has lots of books and is quite nice, in my community of around 50,000 (I think): it has one shelf of poetry collections holding about a fifth as many books as the stack of the latest best-selling novel in the front of the store, and not looking to me like there's much turn-over of its when I return to it on my occasional visits.? The store also has over a hundred different magazines for sale.? I do think Poetry is one of them, but they stock only two or three copies of each issue.? And Poetry?s poetry is about as low in seriousness as poetry can drop and still be called serious.? A better fact is how little space periodicals of any circulation devote to poetry.? My community does have two or three poetry readings a month, but they are mostly social gatherings, and rarely draw more than twenty people, most of them poets, but very few of them serious poets, even by the standards of New-Poetry?doggerelists and Hallmarkers. ? --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Thu Oct 13 17:13:22 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 14:13:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1318540402.19175.YahooMailClassic@web161916.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ..."solutions to poetry's problems are never generalizable or useful, and they don't help write the next poem." They do help write the next poem. Perhaps it's accurate to say that the solution to poetry's "problems" are not generalizable, but reading/studying a poem (a body of work), is the very core of influence. It's how one becomes (to use Bloom's disturbling term) "contaminated" by a particular writer. ... & so it goes ... Williams begats Creely who in turn begats a host of imitators. Until that becomes boring. I may not learn how to write a good Spenserian sonnet in colloquial english? by studying Spenser, but if I studied him, and the writers he influenced, I'd certainly be headed in the right direction. --- On Wed, 10/12/11, Michael Snider wrote: From: Michael Snider Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Wednesday, October 12, 2011, 1:10 PM Bob, There really is no basis of comparison between "serious mathematics" and "serious poetry." Serious mathematical work, especially serious exploratory mathematical work, requires an extraordinary mind and, usually (these days certainly), extraordinary training. Cutting edge work in mathematics is often only understood only by other mathematicians working in the same or closely related fields; proofs or disproofs of theorems may require years or even generations of work. On the other hand, the whole point of a poem is to communicate with and to in some fashion delight one's reader or listener. Even difficult poetry must,?at some level,?be accessible to the non-specialist. I also strenuously object to your characterization of?the magazine?Poetry. It doesn't print poetry you consider innovative: so what? Innovation for its own sake has no more value than pentameter for its own sake. It doesn't print poetry you consider challenging: so what? Here's another difference between poetry and mathematics: in mathematics, once a problem has been solved or a conjecture proved or disproved, it may find a use in further mathematical exploration or in the solution of technical problems in, say, the construction of carbon sails for America's Cup racing boats; solutions to poetry's problems are never generalizable or useful, and they don't help write the next poem. ?Try writing a sonnet, Bob, in strict Spenserian form, in modern colloquial English. If you succeed (it doesn't have to be good, just formally successful), try writing another. And another. And another. It will get a little easier for a little while. But write a hundred of them, and the hundred and first will be no easier than was the seventieth. And what good ones there may be will each be?mysteriously unlike the others. www.mikesnider.org On Oct 11, 2011, at 11:12, "bob grumman" wrote: Poetry ? -----Original Message----- From: Connie Voisine Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:42 AM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience ? dear all-- ? i run a series in back-desert new mexico and we have readers come about every other week during the school year. we regularly have 100 people at our readings, coming to hear poetry! i know it's nice being the only show in town, but there's always tv, right? at a benefit reading (for hunger) this weekend, we had 240 people listening to readers from the new disability poetry anthology "Beauty is a Verb" (Sheila Black, Jim Ferris, Kara Dorris, and Jennifer Bartlett) and Juliana Spahr. Who says poetry is dying? let me at 'em! ? connie ? Sorry, Connie, but being about the only participant at New-Poetry who looks at things analytically, I have to wonder what drew your 240, the poetry or the feel-goodness of doing something for hunger.? Aside from that, a single event or lots of events at a single location can't tell us much.? Each event needs analysis.? I fear I will always remain convinced that serious poetry, like serious mathematics, will never interest more than the few, for very similar reasons.? Cheating, by referring to a single fact, I would advance as evidence my local Books-a-Million, which has lots of books and is quite nice, in my community of around 50,000 (I think): it has one shelf of poetry collections holding about a fifth as many books as the stack of the latest best-selling novel in the front of the store, and not looking to me like there's much turn-over of its when I return to it on my occasional visits.? The store also has over a hundred different magazines for sale.? I do think Poetry is one of them, but they stock only two or three copies of each issue.? And Poetry?s poetry is about as low in seriousness as poetry can drop and still be called serious.? A better fact is how little space periodicals of any circulation devote to poetry.? My community does have two or three poetry readings a month, but they are mostly social gatherings, and rarely draw more than twenty people, most of them poets, but very few of them serious poets, even by the standards of New-Poetry?doggerelists and Hallmarkers. ? --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Thu Oct 13 17:43:44 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 17:43:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience In-Reply-To: <1318540402.19175.YahooMailClassic@web161916.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1318540402.19175.YahooMailClassic@web161916.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I've written two or three hundred sonnets, most very bad, and maybe three dozen Spenserian sonnets, almost all of them bad. I've tried to write "like" various other poets who have written sonnets, and when I've succeeded best at writing, say a sonnet that a 20th century Wordsworth might have written, it's one he might have written on a bad day during a year-long slump. I've made myself write a sonnet a day for months at a time. And it's true that after writing fifty or so sonnets it gets easier just to finish one of the damned things. And yet ? It's still completely mysterious how some few of them come to be what appear to me, and to at least a few others, to be successful poems. I know it's more likely when I've imagined or stolen some fragment of a story and put at least part of the poem in the voice of one or more of the characters in that story, but that's just generally part of the way I work on any kind of poem, not just sonnets. It gets easier to write a sonnet, sure - but not easier to write a good one. www.mikesnider.org On Oct 13, 2011, at 17:13, stephen russell wrote: > ..."solutions to poetry's problems are never generalizable or useful, and they don't help write the next poem." > > They do help write the next poem. Perhaps it's accurate to say that the solution to poetry's "problems" are not generalizable, but reading/studying a poem (a body of work), is the very core of influence. It's how one becomes (to use Bloom's disturbling term) "contaminated" by a particular writer. ... & so it goes ... Williams begats Creely who in turn begats a host of imitators. Until that becomes boring. I may not learn how to write a good Spenserian sonnet in colloquial english by studying Spenser, but if I studied him, and the writers he influenced, I'd certainly be headed in the right direction. > --- On Wed, 10/12/11, Michael Snider wrote: > > From: Michael Snider > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Wednesday, October 12, 2011, 1:10 PM > > Bob, > > There really is no basis of comparison between "serious mathematics" and "serious poetry." Serious mathematical work, especially serious exploratory mathematical work, requires an extraordinary mind and, usually (these days certainly), extraordinary training. Cutting edge work in mathematics is often only understood only by other mathematicians working in the same or closely related fields; proofs or disproofs of theorems may require years or even generations of work. On the other hand, the whole point of a poem is to communicate with and to in some fashion delight one's reader or listener. Even difficult poetry must, at some level, be accessible to the non-specialist. > > I also strenuously object to your characterization of the magazine Poetry. It doesn't print poetry you consider innovative: so what? Innovation for its own sake has no more value than pentameter for its own sake. It doesn't print poetry you consider challenging: so what? Here's another difference between poetry and mathematics: in mathematics, once a problem has been solved or a conjecture proved or disproved, it may find a use in further mathematical exploration or in the solution of technical problems in, say, the construction of carbon sails for America's Cup racing boats; solutions to poetry's problems are never generalizable or useful, and they don't help write the next poem. Try writing a sonnet, Bob, in strict Spenserian form, in modern colloquial English. If you succeed (it doesn't have to be good, just formally successful), try writing another. And another. And another. It will get a little easier for a little while. But write a hundred of them, and the hundred and first will be no easier than was the seventieth. And what good ones there may be will each be mysteriously unlike the others. > > www.mikesnider.org > > On Oct 11, 2011, at 11:12, "bob grumman" wrote: > >> Poetry >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Connie Voisine >> Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:42 AM >> To: NewPoetry List >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience >> >> dear all-- >> >> i run a series in back-desert new mexico and we have readers come >> about every other week during the school year. we regularly have 100 >> people at our readings, coming to hear poetry! i know it's nice being >> the only show in town, but there's always tv, right? at a benefit >> reading (for hunger) this weekend, we had 240 people listening to >> readers from the new disability poetry anthology "Beauty is a Verb" >> (Sheila Black, Jim Ferris, Kara Dorris, and Jennifer Bartlett) and >> Juliana Spahr. Who says poetry is dying? let me at 'em! >> >> connie >> >> Sorry, Connie, but being about the only participant at New-Poetry who looks at things analytically, I have to wonder what drew your 240, the poetry or the feel-goodness of doing something for hunger. Aside from that, a single event or lots of events at a single location can't tell us much. Each event needs analysis. I fear I will always remain convinced that serious poetry, like serious mathematics, will never interest more than the few, for very similar reasons. Cheating, by referring to a single fact, I would advance as evidence my local Books-a-Million, which has lots of books and is quite nice, in my community of around 50,000 (I think): it has one shelf of poetry collections holding about a fifth as many books as the stack of the latest best-selling novel in the front of the store, and not looking to me like there's much turn-over of its when I return to it on my occasional visits. The store also has over a hundred different magazines for sale. I do think Poetry is one of them, but they stock only two or three copies of each issue. And Poetry?s poetry is about as low in seriousness as poetry can drop and still be called serious. A better fact is how little space periodicals of any circulation devote to poetry. My community does have two or three poetry readings a month, but they are mostly social gatherings, and rarely draw more than twenty people, most of them poets, but very few of them serious poets, even by the standards of New-Poetry?doggerelists and Hallmarkers. >> >> --Bob >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Thu Oct 13 17:53:57 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 14:53:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1318542837.99629.YahooMailClassic@web161912.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ... all well said ... but, more importantly, how do you tune a ukulele? When I bought the damn thing, I thought I had a toy that I could master in a month ... less strings, I've learned, isn't less challenging. If I'm not mistaken, you play the mandolin ... yes? It's a slow month on new poetry. Why not talk instruments? ... auto mechanics? ... no sports because they don't need our help. --- On Thu, 10/13/11, Michael Snider wrote: From: Michael Snider Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 5:43 PM I've written two or three hundred sonnets, most very bad, and maybe three dozen Spenserian sonnets, almost all of them bad. I've tried to write "like" various other poets who have written sonnets, and when I've succeeded best at writing, say a sonnet that a 20th century Wordsworth might have written, it's one he might have written on a bad day during a year-long slump. I've made myself write a sonnet a day for months at a time. And it's true that after writing fifty or so sonnets it gets easier just to finish one of the damned things. And yet ?? It's still completely mysterious how some few of them come to be what appear to me, and to at least a few others, to be successful poems. I know it's more likely when I've imagined or stolen some fragment of a story and put at least part of the poem in the voice of one or more of the characters in that story, but that's just generally part of the way I work on any kind of poem, not just sonnets. It gets easier to write a sonnet, sure - but not easier to write a good one. www.mikesnider.org On Oct 13, 2011, at 17:13, stephen russell wrote: ..."solutions to poetry's problems are never generalizable or useful, and they don't help write the next poem." They do help write the next poem. Perhaps it's accurate to say that the solution to poetry's "problems" are not generalizable, but reading/studying a poem (a body of work), is the very core of influence. It's how one becomes (to use Bloom's disturbling term) "contaminated" by a particular writer. ... & so it goes ... Williams begats Creely who in turn begats a host of imitators. Until that becomes boring. I may not learn how to write a good Spenserian sonnet in colloquial english? by studying Spenser, but if I studied him, and the writers he influenced, I'd certainly be headed in the right direction. --- On Wed, 10/12/11, Michael Snider wrote: From: Michael Snider Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Wednesday, October 12, 2011, 1:10 PM Bob, There really is no basis of comparison between "serious mathematics" and "serious poetry." Serious mathematical work, especially serious exploratory mathematical work, requires an extraordinary mind and, usually (these days certainly), extraordinary training. Cutting edge work in mathematics is often only understood only by other mathematicians working in the same or closely related fields; proofs or disproofs of theorems may require years or even generations of work. On the other hand, the whole point of a poem is to communicate with and to in some fashion delight one's reader or listener. Even difficult poetry must,?at some level,?be accessible to the non-specialist. I also strenuously object to your characterization of?the magazine?Poetry. It doesn't print poetry you consider innovative: so what? Innovation for its own sake has no more value than pentameter for its own sake. It doesn't print poetry you consider challenging: so what? Here's another difference between poetry and mathematics: in mathematics, once a problem has been solved or a conjecture proved or disproved, it may find a use in further mathematical exploration or in the solution of technical problems in, say, the construction of carbon sails for America's Cup racing boats; solutions to poetry's problems are never generalizable or useful, and they don't help write the next poem. ?Try writing a sonnet, Bob, in strict Spenserian form, in modern colloquial English. If you succeed (it doesn't have to be good, just formally successful), try writing another. And another. And another. It will get a little easier for a little while. But write a hundred of them, and the hundred and first will be no easier than was the seventieth. And what good ones there may be will each be?mysteriously unlike the others. www.mikesnider.org On Oct 11, 2011, at 11:12, "bob grumman" wrote: Poetry ? -----Original Message----- From: Connie Voisine Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:42 AM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience ? dear all-- ? i run a series in back-desert new mexico and we have readers come about every other week during the school year. we regularly have 100 people at our readings, coming to hear poetry! i know it's nice being the only show in town, but there's always tv, right? at a benefit reading (for hunger) this weekend, we had 240 people listening to readers from the new disability poetry anthology "Beauty is a Verb" (Sheila Black, Jim Ferris, Kara Dorris, and Jennifer Bartlett) and Juliana Spahr. Who says poetry is dying? let me at 'em! ? connie ? Sorry, Connie, but being about the only participant at New-Poetry who looks at things analytically, I have to wonder what drew your 240, the poetry or the feel-goodness of doing something for hunger.? Aside from that, a single event or lots of events at a single location can't tell us much.? Each event needs analysis.? I fear I will always remain convinced that serious poetry, like serious mathematics, will never interest more than the few, for very similar reasons.? Cheating, by referring to a single fact, I would advance as evidence my local Books-a-Million, which has lots of books and is quite nice, in my community of around 50,000 (I think): it has one shelf of poetry collections holding about a fifth as many books as the stack of the latest best-selling novel in the front of the store, and not looking to me like there's much turn-over of its when I return to it on my occasional visits.? The store also has over a hundred different magazines for sale.? I do think Poetry is one of them, but they stock only two or three copies of each issue.? And Poetry?s poetry is about as low in seriousness as poetry can drop and still be called serious.? A better fact is how little space periodicals of any circulation devote to poetry.? My community does have two or three poetry readings a month, but they are mostly social gatherings, and rarely draw more than twenty people, most of them poets, but very few of them serious poets, even by the standards of New-Poetry?doggerelists and Hallmarkers. ? --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Thu Oct 13 18:56:18 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Thu, 13 Oct 2011 18:56:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience In-Reply-To: <1318542837.99629.YahooMailClassic@web161912.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1318542837.99629.YahooMailClassic@web161912.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <69A07A86-3A13-4629-A189-B5C90EBD0096@mikesnider.org> It depends on what size ukulele you bought. The two most common are soprano and tenor. The tenor is tuned like the top (highest sounding) strings of a guitar. On most string instruments, the narrowest and highest sounding string is called the 1st string, and it's the one on the bottom when you hold the instrument as if you were playing it. for the tenor Ike that's 1st E, 2nd B, 3rd G, 4th D. The soprano ins 1st A, 2nd E, 3rd C, 4th G, but that G is tuned higher than any but the 1st string, and it's only one step below that one. Wikipedia has more (as always): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukulele www.mikesnider.org On Oct 13, 2011, at 17:53, stephen russell wrote: > ... all well said ... but, more importantly, how do you tune a ukulele? When I bought the damn thing, I thought I had a toy that I could master in a month ... less strings, I've learned, isn't less challenging. If I'm not mistaken, you play the mandolin ... yes? It's a slow month on new poetry. Why not talk instruments? ... auto mechanics? ... no sports because they don't need our help. > > --- On Thu, 10/13/11, Michael Snider wrote: > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Oct 14 08:52:14 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 08:52:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Where Do Poets Draw the Line? In-Reply-To: <1108080227442.1102260488940.5131.9.201550A3@scheduler> References: <1108080227442.1102260488940.5131.9.201550A3@scheduler> Message-ID: <8CE58873B761E1B-14F8-2DE3C@webmail-m029.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: University of Iowa Press Having trouble viewing this email? Click here Hi, just a reminder that you're receiving this email because you have expressed an interest in University of Iowa Press. Don't forget to add allison-means at uiowa.edu to your address book so we'll be sure to land in your inbox! You may unsubscribe if you no longer wish to receive our emails. Quick Links Exam Copies Media Requests Permission Requests Make a Donation Regular Price: $33.00 Sale Price: $24.75 A Broken Thing: Poets on the Line edited by Emily Rosko & Anton Vander Zee Greetings, The University of Iowa Press is proud to present our newest poetry criticism book. If you would like any additional information or a review copy of A Broken Thing: Poets on the Line, please feel free to contact me. Sincerely, Allison T. Means University of Iowa Press Praise for A Broken Thing... "Whether oral or written, ancient or modern, from one hemisphere or another, most poetry has organized itself in basic units that English calls lines. In their energetic collection of brief essay-sprints, Emily Rosko and Anton Vander Zee offer us nearly seventy contemporary writers' thoughts about poetic lines. The result is a rich and glorious variety of insights and formulations, lavishly inclusive and resolutely uncommitted to any single orthodoxy. The editors' forthright introduction is illuminating, judicious, and open-handed. This is a book that anyone drawn to the study of poetic form and its largest meanings should know."--Stephen Cushman, author, Riffraff, and editor, Princeton Encyclopedia of Poetry and Poetics Save 25% To save, please go to our website and visit the A Broken Thing book page, and use promo code ROSKO11. This is case sensitive, so be sure to make those letters capitals! This coupon is transferable; please feel free to forward to family and friends. Offer Expires: January 13, 2012 Forward email This email was sent to jforjames at aol.com by allison-means at uiowa.edu | Update Profile/Email Address | Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribe? | Privacy Policy. University of Iowa Press | 119 West Park Road | 100 Kuhl House | Iowa City | IA | 52242 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Oct 14 10:54:01 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 09:54:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] New issue of Poemeleon Message-ID: The latest issue of Poemeleon has gone online, with two of my poems: http://www.poemeleon.org/1david-graham/ Other contributors this time include Molly Tenenbaum, Martha Silano, Mark Cox, Carol Potter, Sherman Alexie, Tony Trigilio, Ann Fisher-Worth, Luisa A. Igloria, and Richard Garcia. A review by Tom Huley of new books by Ron Padgett and Dean Young. Here is the main table of contents: http://www.poemeleon.org/table-of-contents-6/ ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Oct 14 10:56:49 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 10:56:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] It's out! Message-ID: <487ba.71ca2480.3bc9a7b0@cs.com> http://www.gingkopress.com/09-lit/vladimir-nabokov-pale-fire.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fox.skip at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 12:15:57 2011 From: fox.skip at gmail.com (Skip Fox) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 11:15:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] It's out! In-Reply-To: <487ba.71ca2480.3bc9a7b0@cs.com> References: <487ba.71ca2480.3bc9a7b0@cs.com> Message-ID: I always thought the first 14 lines as brilliant, but the rest seemed a parody of a New England poet (Frost like but with biograhical material). Am I wrong? How should I see ti? (I'm open for suggestions, esp. since it seemed odd for the first 14 lines to be so good . . . and I can't see Nabokov being uneven in that regard.). On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 9:56 AM, wrote: > http://www.gingkopress.com/09-lit/vladimir-nabokov-pale-fire.html > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Oct 14 12:41:16 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 12:41:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] It's out! Message-ID: In a message dated 10/14/2011 11:16:04 AM Central Daylight Time, fox.skip at gmail.com writes: > > I always thought the first 14 lines as brilliant, but the rest seemed a > parody of a New England poet (Frost like but with biograhical material). > > Am I wrong? How should I see ti? (I'm open for suggestions, esp. since it > seemed odd for the first 14 lines to be so good . . . and I can't see > Nabokov being uneven in that regard.). > > Can't imagine Wye, as there's very little New England in it. It's set in the fictional state of Appalachia, more like Ithaca than any other place, I guess. But you'll have to read the essays . . . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fox.skip at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 12:54:20 2011 From: fox.skip at gmail.com (Skip Fox) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 11:54:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] It's out! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's the tone of the piece that reminds me of Frost, but playing with it. Of course, it culd be any beloved nationally known writer a personal poetry with a regional flavor. I guess what I really want to know is if it is a "great American poem," albeit with a fictional author, or not. On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 11:41 AM, wrote: > In a message dated 10/14/2011 11:16:04 AM Central Daylight Time, > fox.skip at gmail.com writes: > > > I always thought the first 14 lines as brilliant, but the rest seemed a > parody of a New England poet (Frost like but with biograhical material). > > Am I wrong? How should I see ti? (I'm open for suggestions, esp. since it > seemed odd for the first 14 lines to be so good . . . and I can't see > Nabokov being uneven in that regard.). > > > Can't imagine Wye, as there's very little New England in it. It's set in > the fictional state of Appalachia, more like Ithaca than any other place, I > guess. > > But you'll have to read the essays . . . > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Oct 14 13:08:20 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 13:08:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Where Do Poets Draw the Line? In-Reply-To: <8CE58873B761E1B-14F8-2DE3C@webmail-m029.sysops.aol.com> References: <1108080227442.1102260488940.5131.9.201550A3@scheduler> <8CE58873B761E1B-14F8-2DE3C@webmail-m029.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <18398A6103334A01993815C6EA118DFB@BobHP> I wouldn?t mind having a copy of this book, but have to say (as I always have to say, as Hal will verify) that the editors missed a chance for a really meaningful book by not asking a dozen or so poets who do not write in lines to talk about linelessness. The blurber does speak of the gathered texts as ?resolutely uncommitted to any single orthodoxy. ? Why do I feel I don?t have to read the book to know that?s baloney?? (Note: there?s a much bigger difference between the lines of conventional poetry and the linelessness of much visual and other forms of unconventional poetry than there is between the lines of formal verse and of free verse. My own visio-mathematical poetry, however, is probably about as lineated?and as formal--as it?s possible to be.) --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Oct 14 13:12:30 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 13:12:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] It's out! Message-ID: <2d5cb.75d626e8.3bc9c77e@cs.com> In a message dated 10/14/2011 11:54:24 AM Central Daylight Time, fox.skip at gmail.com writes: > > It's the tone of the piece that reminds me of Frost, but playing with it. > Of course, it culd be any beloved nationally known writer a personal poetry > with a regional flavor. > > I guess what I really want to know is if it is a "great American poem," > albeit with a fictional author, or not. > The last phrase of my essay says, "among the the masterworks of American verse." But you'll have to buy it to find out why--heh, heh. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fox.skip at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 13:52:38 2011 From: fox.skip at gmail.com (Skip Fox) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 12:52:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] It's out! In-Reply-To: <2d5cb.75d626e8.3bc9c77e@cs.com> References: <2d5cb.75d626e8.3bc9c77e@cs.com> Message-ID: Ordered from Amazon and looking forward to seeing. The poem is a quandry for me and I hope to dive deeper into the issue. It looks like a beautiful publishing project. On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 12:12 PM, wrote: > In a message dated 10/14/2011 11:54:24 AM Central Daylight Time, > fox.skip at gmail.com writes: > > > It's the tone of the piece that reminds me of Frost, but playing with it. > Of course, it culd be any beloved nationally known writer a personal poetry > with a regional flavor. > > I guess what I really want to know is if it is a "great American poem," > albeit with a fictional author, or not. > > > The last phrase of my essay says, "among the the masterworks of American > verse." But you'll have to buy it to find out why--heh, heh. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fox.skip at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 13:55:04 2011 From: fox.skip at gmail.com (Skip Fox) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 12:55:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. In-Reply-To: <16540057.1318532678282.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <16540057.1318532678282.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: When I read, I read fully. Unless, as you say, it's obviously bad from the first. (But even then curiosity brings me to read around a bit. On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 2:04 PM, wrote: > Reading poetry requires something like the focus needed to write poetry, > and that's in short supply for any of us. Fortunately, most submissions are > appallingly bad or at least appallingly inappropriate for the press > submitted to. My editorial system involves reading the first and last > poems--I figure most folks want to start and finish strong. If I can get > past the first few lines. Far more important foer this [process than the > ordering of the book is some knowledge beyond the dustbooks description of > what a press tends to be interested in. > > I'd hate to be read this way myself, of course, but that's reality. The > judge or editor who claims to read all of dozens or hundreds of submissions > isn't reading after the first few anyway, unless he or she suspects they > know who the author is or there's a surprise unsubtle enough to break > through the noxious haze that's set in. > > I've written books that are ordered and books that are really ordered. The > latter are meant to be read from first to last line, and maybe a reader will > figure that out. Maybe not. I have a hard time imagining that any reader > will think the order just grew, like Topsy. > > Best, > > Mark > > -----Original Message----- > From: Skip Fox ** > Sent: Oct 13, 2011 2:45 PM > To: NewPoetry List ** > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. > > Yes, of course. Not enough time for 200, but my job is more like 35-40 > per year. > > I _have_ heard the horrendous amount of reading that readers for the > National Book Award must do. I knew someone who read perhaps over 100 novels > (maybe 200) in a single summer. I cannot imagine doing so, but deeply > respect someone who does. > > Christian Bok was a reader for a top Canadian prize and spoke of a similar > feat in a short period of time but had to read books in multiple genres > (such was the nature of the affair). Bok was very proud of the fact he read > each and every ms. > > On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 1:17 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: > >> I never liked poetry books with a forced theme, and that's all I hear >> these days when the topic comes up, "First, you should find a theme." Bah! >> I'm more in line with Larkin's statement about ordering poems in a book: "I >> treat them like a music hall bill: you know, contrast, difference in length, >> the comic, the Irish tenor, bring on the girls." >> >> JohnJ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > **** > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Oct 14 14:03:54 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 14:03:54 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Where Do Poets Draw the Line? Message-ID: <21522004.1318615435171.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 14:07:37 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 13:07:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. In-Reply-To: <16540057.1318532678282.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <16540057.1318532678282.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: The need for that focus, I agree with, Mark, and it's one reason I dislike poetry readings: too damn many distractions--the others in the room, the noise from the bar, from the kitchen, from the espresso machine, the poet or poets themselves--all standing between the reader and the poem. Still, I must admit having enjoyed hearing Bruce Andrews read at the Ear Inn some years back, words from the bar chatter behind him mixed in by him with the words he may or may not have been reading from the sheaf of pages in his hand. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 2:04 PM, wrote: > Reading poetry requires something like the focus needed to write poetry, > and that's in short supply for any of us. Fortunately, most submissions are > appallingly bad or at least appallingly inappropriate for the press > submitted to. My editorial system involves reading the first and last > poems--I figure most folks want to start and finish strong. If I can get > past the first few lines. Far more important foer this [process than the > ordering of the book is some knowledge beyond the dustbooks description of > what a press tends to be interested in. > > I'd hate to be read this way myself, of course, but that's reality. The > judge or editor who claims to read all of dozens or hundreds of submissions > isn't reading after the first few anyway, unless he or she suspects they > know who the author is or there's a surprise unsubtle enough to break > through the noxious haze that's set in. > > I've written books that are ordered and books that are really ordered. The > latter are meant to be read from first to last line, and maybe a reader will > figure that out. Maybe not. I have a hard time imagining that any reader > will think the order just grew, like Topsy. > > Best, > > Mark > > -----Original Message----- > From: Skip Fox ** > Sent: Oct 13, 2011 2:45 PM > To: NewPoetry List ** > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. > > Yes, of course. Not enough time for 200, but my job is more like 35-40 per > year. > > I _have_ heard the horrendous amount of reading that readers for the > National Book Award must do. I knew someone who read perhaps over 100 novels > (maybe 200) in a single summer. I cannot imagine doing so, but deeply > respect someone who does. > > Christian Bok was a reader for a top Canadian prize and spoke of a similar > feat in a short period of time but had to read books in multiple genres > (such was the nature of the affair). Bok was very proud of the fact he read > each and every ms. > > On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 1:17 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: > >> I never liked poetry books with a forced theme, and that's all I hear >> these days when the topic comes up, "First, you should find a theme." Bah! >> I'm more in line with Larkin's statement about ordering poems in a book: "I >> treat them like a music hall bill: you know, contrast, difference in length, >> the comic, the Irish tenor, bring on the girls." >> >> JohnJ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > **** > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Oct 14 14:08:37 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 14:08:37 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. Message-ID: <2911715.1318615717470.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fox.skip at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 14:48:23 2011 From: fox.skip at gmail.com (Skip Fox) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 13:48:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. In-Reply-To: <2911715.1318615717470.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <2911715.1318615717470.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: No, I took no offence. Just mentioned what I do and like to do. I think I'm able to read each on its own merits, but then I do less than one per week overall. On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 1:08 PM, wrote: > Sorry, my second paragraph wasn't clear, and I wasn't denying your honesty. > By "isn't reading after the first few" I meant "isn't reading with the full > attention some books deserve." Even a masterpiece could slip by in that > state. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Skip Fox ** > Sent: Oct 14, 2011 1:55 PM > To: NewPoetry List ** > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. > > When I read, I read fully. Unless, as you say, it's obviously bad from the > first. (But even then curiosity brings me to read around a bit. > > On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 2:04 PM, wrote: > >> Reading poetry requires something like the focus needed to write poetry, >> and that's in short supply for any of us. Fortunately, most submissions are >> appallingly bad or at least appallingly inappropriate for the press >> submitted to. My editorial system involves reading the first and last >> poems--I figure most folks want to start and finish strong. If I can get >> past the first few lines. Far more important foer this [process than the >> ordering of the book is some knowledge beyond the dustbooks description of >> what a press tends to be interested in. >> >> I'd hate to be read this way myself, of course, but that's reality. The >> judge or editor who claims to read all of dozens or hundreds of submissions >> isn't reading after the first few anyway, unless he or she suspects they >> know who the author is or there's a surprise unsubtle enough to break >> through the noxious haze that's set in. >> >> I've written books that are ordered and books that are really ordered. The >> latter are meant to be read from first to last line, and maybe a reader will >> figure that out. Maybe not. I have a hard time imagining that any reader >> will think the order just grew, like Topsy. >> >> Best, >> >> Mark >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Skip Fox ** >> Sent: Oct 13, 2011 2:45 PM >> To: NewPoetry List ** >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. >> >> Yes, of course. Not enough time for 200, but my job is more like 35-40 >> per year. >> >> I _have_ heard the horrendous amount of reading that readers for the >> National Book Award must do. I knew someone who read perhaps over 100 novels >> (maybe 200) in a single summer. I cannot imagine doing so, but deeply >> respect someone who does. >> >> Christian Bok was a reader for a top Canadian prize and spoke of a similar >> feat in a short period of time but had to read books in multiple genres >> (such was the nature of the affair). Bok was very proud of the fact he read >> each and every ms. >> >> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 1:17 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: >> >>> I never liked poetry books with a forced theme, and that's all I hear >>> these days when the topic comes up, "First, you should find a theme." Bah! >>> I'm more in line with Larkin's statement about ordering poems in a book: "I >>> treat them like a music hall bill: you know, contrast, difference in length, >>> the comic, the Irish tenor, bring on the girls." >>> >>> JohnJ >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> **** >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > **** > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Oct 14 14:53:30 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 14:53:30 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. Message-ID: <13761714.1318618411162.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.weinstock at gmail.com Fri Oct 14 22:05:59 2011 From: david.weinstock at gmail.com (David Weinstock) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 22:05:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Where Do Poets Draw the Line? In-Reply-To: <18398A6103334A01993815C6EA118DFB@BobHP> References: <1108080227442.1102260488940.5131.9.201550A3@scheduler> <8CE58873B761E1B-14F8-2DE3C@webmail-m029.sysops.aol.com> <18398A6103334A01993815C6EA118DFB@BobHP> Message-ID: For the hundredth time since I've been watching, Bob condemns a book he hasn't read. How can he possibly live with himself? On Fri, Oct 14, 2011 at 1:08 PM, bob grumman wrote: > I wouldn?t mind having a copy of this book, but have to say (as I always > have to say, as Hal will verify) that the editors missed a chance for a > really meaningful book by not asking a dozen or so poets who do not write > in lines to talk about linelessness. The blurber *does* speak of the > gathered texts as ?resolutely uncommitted to any single orthodoxy. ? Why > do I feel I don?t have to read the book to know that?s baloney?? (Note: > there?s a much bigger difference between the lines of conventional poetry > and the linelessness of much visual and other forms of unconventional poetry > than there is between the lines of formal verse and of free verse. My own > visio-mathematical poetry, however, is probably about as lineated?and as * > formal*--as it?s possible to be.) > > --Bob > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- DAVID WEINSTOCK *Email: david.weinstock at gmail.com* *Mail: 240 Woodland Park, Middlebury VT 05753 USA* *Blog: www.waitingforhungry.blogspot.com* *Phone: 802-388-6939 * *Cell: 802-989-4314* -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From editor at pavementsaw.org Fri Oct 14 23:20:53 2011 From: editor at pavementsaw.org (David Baratier) Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2011 20:20:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] my advice for contests Message-ID: <1318648853.26896.YahooMailClassic@web45611.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I read over a thousand manuscripts yearly, here's my two cents-- for the mechanics & cover letter-- 1.) Include all ways to contact you on the cover letter. 2.) Do not spend $12 or more dollars sending the manuscript. Give us the loot. 3.) No 8 by 10 glossy photograph of the poet in the submission. 4.) If you must include a 8 by 10 glossy photograph of the poet, do not be holding your pet. 5.) No reason to mention which famous poets you studied with. I already know. Traces of their scent permeate certain submissions. 6.) No Copyright insignias or mentions on the manuscript, especially not on every page. 7.) Include publication credits. At the same time do NOT let lack of them deter you from sending. David Bromige chose a first book for us with no pub credits. Robert Creeley wrote a forward for a first book for us with no pub credits. I chose a first book last year with no pub credits. And so on. Advice for the interior 1.) Themes are for squares. A determinable voice or voices (as in "they do the police in different voices") are key. These can be syntactical, narrative, punctive, whatever. All's cool with me. They are the cement of the (chap or) book. 2.) Read good poems, often. 3.) I am an editor, I will change your book. If you want a publisher, try lulu.? 3.) Prose poets need an economy of words. 4.) Prose poets should not mistake short sentences for an economy of words. 5.) Don't spread the manure. IE: a weak line spread across the page does not increase its meaning. 6.) Your line breaks should be able to defend themselves by informing the reader why they are transparent, obscure, oblique, juxtaposed, etcetera. 7.) Words in your poems are THE word, not a word. 8.) Chaps split into sections is usually a goofy practice. Unless you write like Beverly Dahlen, Nate Mackey, Garin Cycholl and so on. 9.) Books not split into sections usually indicate a lack of breath, meter or timing. Unless its a serial work or epic. 10.) If you are terrible at titles, number the poems. Or call them all Poem. 11.) Except for having a poem titled Poem, don't make the Poem about a poem. That is a start. Maybe a better way is a questionaire than a list like this. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press 321 Empire Street Montpelier OH 43543 http://pavementsaw.org Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 Facebook Page http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=25857379734&ref=ts From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Oct 15 06:17:56 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 06:17:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Where Do Poets Draw the Line? In-Reply-To: References: <1108080227442.1102260488940.5131.9.201550A3@scheduler><8CE58873B761E1B-14F8-2DE3C@webmail-m029.sysops.aol.com><18398 A6103334A01993815C6EA118DFB@BobHP> Message-ID: <537C1554443544BDB35D86DCE2DE9255@BobHP> From: David Weinstock Sent: Friday, October 14, 2011 10:05 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Where Do Poets Draw the Line? For the hundredth time since I've been watching, Bob condemns a book he hasn't read. How can he possibly live with himself? Oh, I tell myself that the ability to make inferences is valuable, and that only rather stupid people are unable to understand something without detailed direct experience of it. Read a biography of Holmes?s older brother sometime, David. By the way, I didn?t condemn the book, only voiced a strong suspicion that it would be limited. I believe I even said I wouldn?t mind having a copy of it. Lack of money keeps me from buying many books, though. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Oct 15 16:03:21 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 13:03:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Where Do Poets Draw the Line? In-Reply-To: <18398A6103334A01993815C6EA118DFB@BobHP> Message-ID: <1318709001.95101.YahooMailClassic@web161913.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> If poets must draw a line, start here: --- On Fri, 10/14/11, bob grumman wrote: From: bob grumman Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Where Do Poets Draw the Line? To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Friday, October 14, 2011, 1:08 PM I wouldn?t mind having a copy of this book, but have to say (as I always have to say, as Hal will verify) that the editors missed a chance for a really meaningful book by? not asking a dozen or so poets who do not write in lines to talk about linelessness.? The blurber does speak of the gathered texts as ?resolutely uncommitted to any single orthodoxy. ?? Why do I feel I don?t have to read the book to know that?s baloney??? (Note: there?s a much bigger difference between the lines of conventional poetry and the linelessness of much visual and other forms of unconventional poetry than there is between the lines of formal verse and of free verse.? My own visio-mathematical poetry, however, is probably about as lineated?and as formal--as it?s possible to be.) ? --Bob ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Oct 15 16:09:33 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 13:09:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience In-Reply-To: <69A07A86-3A13-4629-A189-B5C90EBD0096@mikesnider.org> Message-ID: <1318709373.46338.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> thanks: it's the high sound not that on a guitar sounds a low E ,,,? bugged me. I'm not sure why I bought the damn thing. If I wanted a challenge, there's used violens. Perhaps even inexpensive cellos, though I haven't seen one yet. I can sort of sing. Maybe I can do a tiny tim thing ... maybe i bought the uke 'cause it's easy to carry ... --- On Thu, 10/13/11, Michael Snider wrote: From: Michael Snider Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 6:56 PM It depends on what size ukulele you bought. The two most common are soprano and tenor. ?The tenor is tuned like the top (highest sounding) strings of a guitar. On most string instruments, the narrowest and highest sounding string is called the 1st string, and it's the one on the bottom when you hold the instrument as if you were playing it. for the tenor Ike that's 1st E, 2nd B, 3rd ?G, 4th D. ? The soprano ins 1st A, 2nd E, 3rd C, 4th G, but that G is tuned higher than any but the 1st string, and it's only one step below that one. ?Wikipedia has more (as always):?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukulele www.mikesnider.org On Oct 13, 2011, at 17:53, stephen russell wrote: ... all well said ... but, more importantly, how do you tune a ukulele? When I bought the damn thing, I thought I had a toy that I could master in a month ... less strings, I've learned, isn't less challenging. If I'm not mistaken, you play the mandolin ... yes? It's a slow month on new poetry. Why not talk instruments? ... auto mechanics? ... no sports because they don't need our help. --- On Thu, 10/13/11, Michael Snider wrote: -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Oct 15 16:19:34 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 13:19:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Where Do Poets Draw the Line? In-Reply-To: <21522004.1318615435171.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1318709974.59038.YahooMailClassic@web161910.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ... who draws the line: prose poem/ flash fiction? Is it word count? Or does flash fiction actually tell a story ... as opposed to a speaker ... an occupier ...whatever it is that taking space on a clean, blank page ... the thing that narrates ... you know? ... --- On Fri, 10/14/11, junction at earthlink.net wrote: From: junction at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Where Do Poets Draw the Line? To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Friday, October 14, 2011, 2:03 PM #yiv611626386 body{font-family:Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:9pt;background-color:#ffffff;color:black;}They also vastly underestimate the amount of prose poetry out there (especially in Lain America). -----Original Message----- From: bob grumman Sent: Oct 14, 2011 1:08 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Where Do Poets Draw the Line? I wouldn?t mind having a copy of this book, but have to say (as I always have to say, as Hal will verify) that the editors missed a chance for a really meaningful book by? not asking a dozen or so poets who do not write in lines to talk about linelessness.? The blurber does speak of the gathered texts as ?resolutely uncommitted to any single orthodoxy. ?? Why do I feel I don?t have to read the book to know that?s baloney??? (Note: there?s a much bigger difference between the lines of conventional poetry and the linelessness of much visual and other forms of unconventional poetry than there is between the lines of formal verse and of free verse.? My own visio-mathematical poetry, however, is probably about as lineated?and as formal--as it?s possible to be.) ? --Bob ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Oct 15 16:38:24 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 13:38:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Where Do Poets Draw the Line? In-Reply-To: <1318709974.59038.YahooMailClassic@web161910.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1318711104.20618.YahooMailClassic@web161914.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ... whatever it is that is taking space ... ? ... --- On Sat, 10/15/11, stephen russell wrote: From: stephen russell Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Where Do Poets Draw the Line? To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, October 15, 2011, 4:19 PM ... who draws the line: prose poem/ flash fiction? Is it word count? Or does flash fiction actually tell a story ... as opposed to a speaker ... an occupier ...whatever it is that taking space on a clean, blank page ... the thing that narrates ... you know? ... --- On Fri, 10/14/11, junction at earthlink.net wrote: From: junction at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Where Do Poets Draw the Line? To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Friday, October 14, 2011, 2:03 PM #yiv161051088 body{font-family:Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:9pt;background-color:#ffffff;color:black;}They also vastly underestimate the amount of prose poetry out there (especially in Lain America). -----Original Message----- From: bob grumman Sent: Oct 14, 2011 1:08 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Where Do Poets Draw the Line? I wouldn?t mind having a copy of this book, but have to say (as I always have to say, as Hal will verify) that the editors missed a chance for a really meaningful book by? not asking a dozen or so poets who do not write in lines to talk about linelessness.? The blurber does speak of the gathered texts as ?resolutely uncommitted to any single orthodoxy. ?? Why do I feel I don?t have to read the book to know that?s baloney??? (Note: there?s a much bigger difference between the lines of conventional poetry and the linelessness of much visual and other forms of unconventional poetry than there is between the lines of formal verse and of free verse.? My own visio-mathematical poetry, however, is probably about as lineated?and as formal--as it?s possible to be.) ? --Bob ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Sat Oct 15 16:42:57 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 15:42:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience In-Reply-To: <1318709373.46338.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1318709373.46338.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E99F051.3030208@louisiana.edu> Indeed, since Rolling Stone a few months ago had an article about rock stars playing uke and even doing whole uke albums (Eddie Vedder) and Jake Shimabukuro is all over the internet covering Clapton and Hendrix, it's very common to stumble over the hipster kids on campus strolling along strumming (usually a soprano) uke. I haven't noticed that they've invaded the local Cajun and/or Zydeco bands yet. Me, I was feeling nostalgic for an earlier moment in my life and bought a baritone uke about six months ago (because basically I'm not a huge fan of the soprano/tenor range; but also because you tune the baritone to the bottom four of a guitar). Finally--guitar fingerings where my index finger doesn't get tangled up in the bass strings! (But if you play guitar at all, don't be surprised if you find yourself often reaching for strings that aren't there.) When in doubt: tune it to a straight D (or E or F or G, etc.) and play it with a bottleneck. Jerry On 10/15/2011 3:09 PM, stephen russell wrote: > thanks: it's the high sound not that on a guitar sounds a low E ,,, > bugged me. I'm not sure why I bought the damn thing. If I wanted a > challenge, there's used violens. Perhaps even inexpensive cellos, > though I haven't seen one yet. I can sort of sing. Maybe I can do a > tiny tim thing ... maybe i bought the uke 'cause it's easy to carry ... > > > --- On *Thu, 10/13/11, Michael Snider //* wrote: > > > From: Michael Snider > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has > smallaudience > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 6:56 PM > > It depends on what size ukulele you bought. The two most common > are soprano and tenor. The tenor is tuned like the top (highest > sounding) strings of a guitar. On most string instruments, the > narrowest and highest sounding string is called the 1st string, > and it's the one on the bottom when you hold the instrument as if > you were playing it. for the tenor Ike that's 1st E, 2nd B, 3rd > G, 4th D. The soprano ins 1st A, 2nd E, 3rd C, 4th G, but that > G is tuned higher than any but the 1st string, and it's only one > step below that one. Wikipedia has more (as always): > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukulele > > www.mikesnider.org > > On Oct 13, 2011, at 17:53, stephen russell > > wrote: > >> ... all well said ... but, more importantly, how do you tune a >> ukulele? When I bought the damn thing, I thought I had a toy that >> I could master in a month ... less strings, I've learned, isn't >> less challenging. If I'm not mistaken, you play the mandolin ... >> yes? It's a slow month on new poetry. Why not talk instruments? >> ... auto mechanics? ... no sports because they don't need our help. >> >> --- On *Thu, 10/13/11, Michael Snider /> >/* wrote: >> >> > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Oct 15 16:41:18 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 13:41:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1318711278.26217.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> My big problem with formal poetry is counting stresses. I hear them. I hear the changes in bop as well. Still, try playing bop ... you know ... --- On Thu, 10/13/11, Michael Snider wrote: From: Michael Snider Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 5:43 PM I've written two or three hundred sonnets, most very bad, and maybe three dozen Spenserian sonnets, almost all of them bad. I've tried to write "like" various other poets who have written sonnets, and when I've succeeded best at writing, say a sonnet that a 20th century Wordsworth might have written, it's one he might have written on a bad day during a year-long slump. I've made myself write a sonnet a day for months at a time. And it's true that after writing fifty or so sonnets it gets easier just to finish one of the damned things. And yet ?? It's still completely mysterious how some few of them come to be what appear to me, and to at least a few others, to be successful poems. I know it's more likely when I've imagined or stolen some fragment of a story and put at least part of the poem in the voice of one or more of the characters in that story, but that's just generally part of the way I work on any kind of poem, not just sonnets. It gets easier to write a sonnet, sure - but not easier to write a good one. www.mikesnider.org On Oct 13, 2011, at 17:13, stephen russell wrote: ..."solutions to poetry's problems are never generalizable or useful, and they don't help write the next poem." They do help write the next poem. Perhaps it's accurate to say that the solution to poetry's "problems" are not generalizable, but reading/studying a poem (a body of work), is the very core of influence. It's how one becomes (to use Bloom's disturbling term) "contaminated" by a particular writer. ... & so it goes ... Williams begats Creely who in turn begats a host of imitators. Until that becomes boring. I may not learn how to write a good Spenserian sonnet in colloquial english? by studying Spenser, but if I studied him, and the writers he influenced, I'd certainly be headed in the right direction. --- On Wed, 10/12/11, Michael Snider wrote: From: Michael Snider Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Wednesday, October 12, 2011, 1:10 PM Bob, There really is no basis of comparison between "serious mathematics" and "serious poetry." Serious mathematical work, especially serious exploratory mathematical work, requires an extraordinary mind and, usually (these days certainly), extraordinary training. Cutting edge work in mathematics is often only understood only by other mathematicians working in the same or closely related fields; proofs or disproofs of theorems may require years or even generations of work. On the other hand, the whole point of a poem is to communicate with and to in some fashion delight one's reader or listener. Even difficult poetry must,?at some level,?be accessible to the non-specialist. I also strenuously object to your characterization of?the magazine?Poetry. It doesn't print poetry you consider innovative: so what? Innovation for its own sake has no more value than pentameter for its own sake. It doesn't print poetry you consider challenging: so what? Here's another difference between poetry and mathematics: in mathematics, once a problem has been solved or a conjecture proved or disproved, it may find a use in further mathematical exploration or in the solution of technical problems in, say, the construction of carbon sails for America's Cup racing boats; solutions to poetry's problems are never generalizable or useful, and they don't help write the next poem. ?Try writing a sonnet, Bob, in strict Spenserian form, in modern colloquial English. If you succeed (it doesn't have to be good, just formally successful), try writing another. And another. And another. It will get a little easier for a little while. But write a hundred of them, and the hundred and first will be no easier than was the seventieth. And what good ones there may be will each be?mysteriously unlike the others. www.mikesnider.org On Oct 11, 2011, at 11:12, "bob grumman" wrote: Poetry ? -----Original Message----- From: Connie Voisine Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2011 10:42 AM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience ? dear all-- ? i run a series in back-desert new mexico and we have readers come about every other week during the school year. we regularly have 100 people at our readings, coming to hear poetry! i know it's nice being the only show in town, but there's always tv, right? at a benefit reading (for hunger) this weekend, we had 240 people listening to readers from the new disability poetry anthology "Beauty is a Verb" (Sheila Black, Jim Ferris, Kara Dorris, and Jennifer Bartlett) and Juliana Spahr. Who says poetry is dying? let me at 'em! ? connie ? Sorry, Connie, but being about the only participant at New-Poetry who looks at things analytically, I have to wonder what drew your 240, the poetry or the feel-goodness of doing something for hunger.? Aside from that, a single event or lots of events at a single location can't tell us much.? Each event needs analysis.? I fear I will always remain convinced that serious poetry, like serious mathematics, will never interest more than the few, for very similar reasons.? Cheating, by referring to a single fact, I would advance as evidence my local Books-a-Million, which has lots of books and is quite nice, in my community of around 50,000 (I think): it has one shelf of poetry collections holding about a fifth as many books as the stack of the latest best-selling novel in the front of the store, and not looking to me like there's much turn-over of its when I return to it on my occasional visits.? The store also has over a hundred different magazines for sale.? I do think Poetry is one of them, but they stock only two or three copies of each issue.? And Poetry?s poetry is about as low in seriousness as poetry can drop and still be called serious.? A better fact is how little space periodicals of any circulation devote to poetry.? My community does have two or three poetry readings a month, but they are mostly social gatherings, and rarely draw more than twenty people, most of them poets, but very few of them serious poets, even by the standards of New-Poetry?doggerelists and Hallmarkers. ? --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Oct 15 16:36:19 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 15:36:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Where Do Poets Draw the Line? In-Reply-To: <1318709974.59038.YahooMailClassic@web161910.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <21522004.1318615435171.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1318709974.59038.YahooMailClassic@web161910.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Stay tuned, Stephen. We leave all that line-drawing stuff to Bob G. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Oct 15, 2011 at 3:19 PM, stephen russell < poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: > ... who draws the line: prose poem/ flash fiction? Is it word count? Or > does flash fiction actually tell a story ... as opposed to a speaker ... an > occupier ...whatever it is that taking space on a clean, blank page ... the > thing that narrates ... you know? ... > > --- On *Fri, 10/14/11, junction at earthlink.net *wrote: > > > From: junction at earthlink.net > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Where Do Poets Draw the Line? > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Friday, October 14, 2011, 2:03 PM > > They also vastly underestimate the amount of prose poetry out there > (especially in Lain America). > > -----Original Message----- > From: bob grumman > Sent: Oct 14, 2011 1:08 PM > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Where Do Poets Draw the Line? > > I wouldn?t mind having a copy of this book, but have to say (as I always > have to say, as Hal will verify) that the editors missed a chance for a > really meaningful book by not asking a dozen or so poets who do not write > in lines to talk about linelessness. The blurber *does* speak of the > gathered texts as ?resolutely uncommitted to any single orthodoxy. ? Why > do I feel I don?t have to read the book to know that?s baloney?? (Note: > there?s a much bigger difference between the lines of conventional poetry > and the linelessness of much visual and other forms of unconventional poetry > than there is between the lines of formal verse and of free verse. My own > visio-mathematical poetry, however, is probably about as lineated?and as * > formal*--as it?s possible to be.) > > --Bob > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Oct 15 17:10:19 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 14:10:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience In-Reply-To: <4E99F051.3030208@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <1318713019.40929.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Bottleneck:I haven't attempted slide. Clapton admitted (converstion in Rolling Stone) that Beck was the.better guitarist. Finally: one problem solved. Now who IS the best guitarist? I'm voting for Christopher Parkings. I'm basing my vote on level of difficulty ... still, Steve Howe may not have Segovia's 5 finger chops, but I heard a tape where he plays bop with Django speed. It's a duet. I don't know the name of the other guitar player. Maybe it's Christopher Parkings ... if it's possible to be that good. Best jazz: Joe Pass Rock: probably Hendrix Overall, ever, probably Chet Atkins --- On Sat, 10/15/11, Jerry McGuire wrote: From: Jerry McGuire Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, October 15, 2011, 4:42 PM Indeed, since Rolling Stone a few months ago had an article about rock stars playing uke and even doing whole uke albums (Eddie Vedder) and Jake Shimabukuro is all over the internet covering Clapton and Hendrix, it's very common to stumble over the hipster kids on campus strolling along strumming (usually a soprano) uke. I haven't noticed that they've invaded the local Cajun and/or Zydeco bands yet. Me, I was feeling nostalgic for an earlier moment in my life and bought a baritone uke about six months ago (because basically I'm not a huge fan of the soprano/tenor range; but also because you tune the baritone to the bottom four of a guitar). Finally--guitar fingerings where my index finger doesn't get tangled up in the bass strings! (But if you play guitar at all, don't be surprised if you find yourself often reaching for strings that aren't there.) When in doubt: tune it to a straight D (or E or F or G, etc.) and play it with a bottleneck. Jerry On 10/15/2011 3:09 PM, stephen russell wrote: thanks: it's the high sound not that on a guitar sounds a low E ,,,? bugged me. I'm not sure why I bought the damn thing. If I wanted a challenge, there's used violens. Perhaps even inexpensive cellos, though I haven't seen one yet. I can sort of sing. Maybe I can do a tiny tim thing ... maybe i bought the uke 'cause it's easy to carry ... --- On Thu, 10/13/11, Michael Snider wrote: From: Michael Snider Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 6:56 PM It depends on what size ukulele you bought. The two most common are soprano and tenor. ?The tenor is tuned like the top (highest sounding) strings of a guitar. On most string instruments, the narrowest and highest sounding string is called the 1st string, and it's the one on the bottom when you hold the instrument as if you were playing it. for the tenor Ike that's 1st E, 2nd B, 3rd ?G, 4th D. ? The soprano ins 1st A, 2nd E, 3rd C, 4th G, but that G is tuned higher than any but the 1st string, and it's only one step below that one. ?Wikipedia has more (as always):?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukulele www.mikesnider.org On Oct 13, 2011, at 17:53, stephen russell wrote: ... all well said ... but, more importantly, how do you tune a ukulele? When I bought the damn thing, I thought I had a toy that I could master in a month ... less strings, I've learned, isn't less challenging. If I'm not mistaken, you play the mandolin ... yes? It's a slow month on new poetry. Why not talk instruments? ... auto mechanics? ... no sports because they don't need our help. --- On Thu, 10/13/11, Michael Snider wrote: -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Sat Oct 15 19:34:27 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 18:34:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience In-Reply-To: <1318713019.40929.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1318713019.40929.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E9A1883.1050500@louisiana.edu> Wow--a Top One List. I can't manage that--there are so many stupifying guitarists around, alive and dead. I do love Joe Pass, but also Wes Montgomery. For many years I was locked into Gabor Szabo--lovely imagination. And John McLaughlin at his peak. And Django himself is breathtaking. There are a couple of younger jazz guitarists casting big shadows these days--Mary Halvorson, for one real knockout. My favorite these days, though, is Nguyen Le. If you want to hear something new (though there's more than a little of the old Mahavishnu orchestra in it) check out his _Saiyuki_--a great, unusual combination of instruments in a fine working band. Among the classical guys, I think you're talking about Christopher Parkening--Segovia's student, or at least heir apparent, years ago. I went to observe a guitar master class here about ten years ago with Parkening (strictly as a spectator, believe me) and the guitarists were all sort of snickering about his being old-fashioned, with old-fashioned technique and old-fashioned ideas and old-fashioned taste. He sounded pretty astounding to me. But they were influenced by their teacher here at the time, who favored the spectacular (but, to my ear, machine-like) Manuel Barrueco. Frankly, I don't have the ear to judge the difference between guitarists playing at that level, so I should keep my mouth shut. But can I say: Manitas de Plata. For rock guys, there's a new one (or an old one) around every corner. Even the best of them feel narrowly specialized, at least compared to younger jazz players, who tend to be able to play classical, jazz, rock, whatever. But they can be overwhelming at their specialties. On my Top One lists in six alternative universes I'd have Hendrix, Clapton, Richard Thompson, maybe Steve Howe, no doubt Gary Lucas (from Captain Beefheart), and Dave Edmunds. (I know very few of the excellent guitarists in contemporary bands, but I'm sure they're out there. I also don't know much about the crazy metal guys, though I grew up on Richie Blackmore and Jimmy Page, who gave them all a kick-start.) And there was Randy California, an _impossible_ killer with the band Spirit. And Carlos Santana. And Frank Zappa. Yikes, I need a lot of universes. And of course, all this leaves out a host of great finger-pickers--Blind Blake, Blind Boy Fuller, Mance Lipscomb, and especially Mississippi John Hurt. And Doc Watson. And then there's Chicago blues. And all the ferocious slide-players. So go ahead, pick a favorite. I once stumbled into a little club in the Village and there was Joe Pass, playing to five people. I sat practically on his knee. He told that old joke he liked to tell about playing fast: he said that when Hendrix and Clapton and Charlie Christian and Wes Montgomery and the others are all sitting around jamming in heaven, he doubted any one of them would ever say to the other: wow, man, you really played fast today. Forget the story; for me, like the trumpet (or like the piano to any civilized person) there are enough players of unspeakable power and beauty and soul to make picking a "best" one an idle exercise (not that I object to anyone with an unshakable, highly focused passion). Frankly, I wish poetry and poets could feel a bit more that way, rather than spending all their idle time thinking of ways they're better than each other, or, worse, that everyone else is worse than they are. And that's enough talking about poetry for one day. Cheers, Jerry On 10/15/2011 4:10 PM, stephen russell wrote: > Bottleneck:I haven't attempted slide. Clapton admitted (converstion in > Rolling Stone) that Beck was the.better guitarist. Finally: one > problem solved. Now who IS the best guitarist? I'm voting for > Christopher Parkings. I'm basing my vote on level of difficulty ... > still, Steve Howe may not have Segovia's 5 finger chops, but I heard a > tape where he plays bop with Django speed. It's a duet. I don't know > the name of the other guitar player. Maybe it's Christopher Parkings > ... if it's possible to be that good. > > Best jazz: Joe Pass > Rock: probably Hendrix > Overall, ever, probably Chet Atkins > > --- On *Sat, 10/15/11, Jerry McGuire //* wrote: > > > From: Jerry McGuire > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has > smallaudience > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Saturday, October 15, 2011, 4:42 PM > > Indeed, since Rolling Stone a few months ago had an article about > rock stars playing uke and even doing whole uke albums (Eddie > Vedder) and Jake Shimabukuro is all over the internet covering > Clapton and Hendrix, it's very common to stumble over the hipster > kids on campus strolling along strumming (usually a soprano) uke. > I haven't noticed that they've invaded the local Cajun and/or > Zydeco bands yet. Me, I was feeling nostalgic for an earlier > moment in my life and bought a baritone uke about six months ago > (because basically I'm not a huge fan of the soprano/tenor range; > but also because you tune the baritone to the bottom four of a > guitar). Finally--guitar fingerings where my index finger doesn't > get tangled up in the bass strings! (But if you play guitar at > all, don't be surprised if you find yourself often reaching for > strings that aren't there.) > > When in doubt: tune it to a straight D (or E or F or G, etc.) and > play it with a bottleneck. > > Jerry > > On 10/15/2011 3:09 PM, stephen russell wrote: >> thanks: it's the high sound not that on a guitar sounds a low E >> ,,, bugged me. I'm not sure why I bought the damn thing. If I >> wanted a challenge, there's used violens. Perhaps even >> inexpensive cellos, though I haven't seen one yet. I can sort of >> sing. Maybe I can do a tiny tim thing ... maybe i bought the uke >> 'cause it's easy to carry ... >> >> >> --- On *Thu, 10/13/11, Michael Snider / >> /* wrote: >> >> >> From: Michael Snider >> >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry >> has smallaudience >> To: "NewPoetry List" >> >> Date: Thursday, October 13, 2011, 6:56 PM >> >> It depends on what size ukulele you bought. The two most >> common are soprano and tenor. The tenor is tuned like the >> top (highest sounding) strings of a guitar. On most string >> instruments, the narrowest and highest sounding string is >> called the 1st string, and it's the one on the bottom when >> you hold the instrument as if you were playing it. for the >> tenor Ike that's 1st E, 2nd B, 3rd G, 4th D. The soprano >> ins 1st A, 2nd E, 3rd C, 4th G, but that G is tuned higher >> than any but the 1st string, and it's only one step below >> that one. Wikipedia has more (as always): >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukulele >> >> www.mikesnider.org >> >> On Oct 13, 2011, at 17:53, stephen russell >> wrote: >> >>> ... all well said ... but, more importantly, how do you tune >>> a ukulele? When I bought the damn thing, I thought I had a >>> toy that I could master in a month ... less strings, I've >>> learned, isn't less challenging. If I'm not mistaken, you >>> play the mandolin ... yes? It's a slow month on new poetry. >>> Why not talk instruments? ... auto mechanics? ... no sports >>> because they don't need our help. >>> >>> --- On *Thu, 10/13/11, Michael Snider >>> //* wrote: >>> >>> >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pihel_e at pipeline.com Sat Oct 15 20:28:30 2011 From: pihel_e at pipeline.com (Erik Pihel) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 17:28:30 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Clickable Poems Relaunched Message-ID: <29321782.1318724910776.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Oct 16 00:01:12 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 15 Oct 2011 23:01:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Best" In-Reply-To: <4E9A1883.1050500@louisiana.edu> References: <1318713019.40929.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4E9A1883.1050500@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <33F392B1-2F93-4CC2-A465-993944675C20@ripon.edu> On Oct 15, 2011, at 6:34 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: > there are enough players of unspeakable power and beauty and soul to make picking a "best" one an idle exercise (not that I object to anyone with an unshakable, highly focused passion). Frankly, I wish poetry and poets could feel a bit more that way, rather than spending all their idle time thinking of ways they're better than each other, or, worse, that everyone else is worse than they are. ============================ I'm just back from a concert of Irish musicians Karan Casey & John Doyle. As of tonight, I'd have to add John Doyle to my personal list of best guitarists I've ever heard live. He could really do it all: acoustic or electric, fingerpicking and flat picking, rhythm and lead. A player of great subtlety and power. But speaking of poetry, this impossible discussion of "best" guitarists puts me in mind of a poem I wrote this past summer, which I thought it might be fair to share on a poetry list. A memory from my long ago college days. . . . King of the Blues Late in the smoky night Winston was much taken with metaphysical questions, such as: which of the three kings of the blues (Albert, BB, or Freddie) was greatest? Happy times with turntable and minute details of solo, bridge, chorus, punctuated by howls and beer-fed whoops and a bit of air guitar purely for illustration. All to arrive once more at the preordained answer (non-negotiable, as were all things Winston) --BB for guitar work, Freddie for vocals, and Albert for cutting you six ways to Sunday if you even gently hinted there could be any other King, Duke, or Prince. . . . What use such slightly musky nostalgia now, in late middle age? Albert and Freddie dead, of course, and BB a veritable mountain, a billboard, his obit written decades ago by every paper in the land, though the bus rolls on. And Winston, who had such big ears and eyes, even Winston, my own personal King, my Virgil to the underworld of Stax, Chess, and P-Vine Records, even Winston gone now these two decades, or is it three? ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Sun Oct 16 03:22:29 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 02:22:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Best" In-Reply-To: <33F392B1-2F93-4CC2-A465-993944675C20@ripon.edu> References: <1318713019.40929.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4E9A1883.1050500@louisiana.edu> <33F392B1-2F93-4CC2-A465-993944675C20@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4E9A8635.5070804@louisiana.edu> Here's one back at you, David; your poem put me in mind of a night I dropped in at the Chestnut Cabaret in Philly to find a grizzled, fat Rory Gallagher playing solo electric; and all around the back of the audience was a ring of boys playing air guitar, trying to keep up with him. I think that's when this poem popped out: AIR POEMS The kid at the train stop before downtown is breaking my heart, he's so heavy on his powerchords, so light with his slowhand fingers yet so violent. My heart tells me nothing, pure noise wrench, ice-pick, sledgehammer all the balls in the air, all points and pounding, slice and echo inside, that's heavy, that's really like so cool, dig it, fuck you, there's the exit hole, go ahead, split you don't like it, no big deal I say, my heart is on the beat, something skips like an old record the train blows by and everything here is very moving, like nobody will touch him, like nobody wants to know, like to be dealt a bad hand bad ear, bad heart, bad you name it, isn't everything, isn't even anything, like any big nothing just a rush in an empty tunnel Jerry On 10/15/2011 11:01 PM, David Graham wrote: > > > On Oct 15, 2011, at 6:34 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: > >> there are enough players of unspeakable power and beauty and soul to >> make picking a "best" one an idle exercise (not that I object to >> anyone with an unshakable, highly focused passion). Frankly, I wish >> poetry and poets could feel a bit more that way, rather than spending >> all their idle time thinking of ways they're better than each other, >> or, worse, that everyone else is worse than they are. > ============================ > > I'm just back from a concert of Irish musicians Karan Casey & John > Doyle. As of tonight, I'd have to add John Doyle to my personal list > of best guitarists I've ever heard live. He could really do it all: > acoustic or electric, fingerpicking and flat picking, rhythm and > lead. A player of great subtlety and power. > > But speaking of poetry, this impossible discussion of "best" > guitarists puts me in mind of a poem I wrote this past summer, which I > thought it might be fair to share on a poetry list. A memory from my > long ago college days. . . . > > > *King of the Blues* > > > Late in the smoky night > Winston was much taken > with metaphysical questions, > > such as: which of the three > kings of the blues > (Albert, BB, or Freddie) > was greatest? > > Happy times with turntable > and minute details > of solo, bridge, chorus, > punctuated by howls > and beer-fed whoops > and a bit of air guitar > purely for illustration. > > All to arrive > once more > at the preordained > answer (non-negotiable, > as were all things Winston) > > --BB for guitar work, > Freddie for vocals, > and Albert for cutting you > six ways to Sunday > > if you even gently > /hinted/ > there could be any other > King, Duke, or Prince. . . . > > What use such > slightly musky > nostalgia now, > in late middle age? > > Albert and Freddie dead, > of course, and BB a veritable mountain, > a billboard, > his obit > written decades ago > by every paper in the land, > > though the bus > rolls on. > > And Winston, who > had such big ears and eyes, > > even Winston, my own > personal King, > my Virgil > to the underworld > of Stax, Chess, and P-Vine Records, > > even Winston > gone now > these two decades, > > or is it three? > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun Oct 16 09:38:37 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 09:38:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] "Best" Message-ID: <734fa.54f123b1.3bcc385c@cs.com> Four: Bobby "Blue" Bland, still kickin'. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Oct 16 11:27:00 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 10:27:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Best" In-Reply-To: <4E9A8635.5070804@louisiana.edu> References: <1318713019.40929.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4E9A1883.1050500@louisiana.edu> <33F392B1-2F93-4CC2-A465-993944675C20@ripon.edu> <4E9A8635.5070804@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <71F34092-2A49-4C21-A089-2722B4D4486A@ripon.edu> On Oct 16, 2011, at 2:22 AM, Jerry McGuire wrote: to find a grizzled, fat Rory Gallagher playing solo electric. . . . ========================= Jerry, Well, we're having fun, anyway! Liked your poem. Here's another of mine, this time an older one, that old Rory Gallagher put me in mind of. The 12-string wizard mentioned here was Roger McGuinn, as I recall, in some Rolling Stone feature way back when. Whatya think, shall we let others play this game? Photos Of Old Rock Stars Backlit, cadaverous, glaring like coins, they wear themselves no less than their gold jackets. Still the gaudy rings, pegged leather pants, cigarettes' pluming between famous fingers. A few sport pumped-up post-psychedelic bodies, though, to go with their graying beards and the fret lines around their eyes. Women can be forgiven if they choose soft focus or long shot, given the audience, but those who don't often look great: travelled, weary, and satisfied, amen. Best shot, though, is of a Hollywood backdrop--skyscrapers of some generic gotham. And there leans a twelve-string wizard, looming three stories high. --David Graham. Egg (Spring 1997). ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== > to find a grizzled, fat Rory Gallagher playing solo electric; and all -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Sun Oct 16 11:41:52 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 10:41:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Best" In-Reply-To: <71F34092-2A49-4C21-A089-2722B4D4486A@ripon.edu> References: <1318713019.40929.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4E9A1883.1050500@louisiana.edu> <33F392B1-2F93-4CC2-A465-993944675C20@ripon.edu> <4E9A8635.5070804@louisiana.edu> <71F34092-2A49-4C21-A089-2722B4D4486A@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4E9AFB40.50900@louisiana.edu> Nothing pleases me more than when others do my work. And where's BG to tell us that we've excluded visual guitarists? (But I _didn't,_ Bob! I'm all about shredding air and whipping hair.) And how come no woman has come forward to say that Mary Ford did everything Les Paul did, but backwards and in heels?) Jerry On 10/16/2011 10:27 AM, David Graham wrote: > Whatya think, shall we let others play this game? > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Oct 16 11:52:02 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 10:52:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Best" In-Reply-To: <4E9AFB40.50900@louisiana.edu> References: <1318713019.40929.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4E9A1883.1050500@louisiana.edu> <33F392B1-2F93-4CC2-A465-993944675C20@ripon.edu> <4E9A8635.5070804@louisiana.edu> <71F34092-2A49-4C21-A089-2722B4D4486A@ripon.edu> <4E9AFB40.50900@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <5E7E33A3-3859-49CF-A675-DA7092E6A8C0@ripon.edu> Speaking of shredding & women guitarists, ever heard Sister Rosetta Tharp tear it up on electric guitar? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeaBNAXfHfQ http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xzr_GBa8qk&feature=related ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Oct 16, 2011, at 10:41 AM, Jerry McGuire wrote: > Nothing pleases me more than when others do my work. And where's BG to tell us that we've excluded visual guitarists? (But I _didn't,_ Bob! I'm all about shredding air and whipping hair.) And how come no woman has come forward to say that Mary Ford did everything Les Paul did, but backwards and in heels?) > > Jerry > > On 10/16/2011 10:27 AM, David Graham wrote: >> >> Whatya think, shall we let others play this game? >> > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 11:57:30 2011 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 11:57:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Best" [Or, Poems about the Blues] Message-ID: Sister Rosetta is awesome. Thanks for posting these, David. And thank you all for posting these blues poems. They are great. Here's a game: let's name some books of poems that explicitly address the blues or blues musicians. I'll start with a favorite of mine, Tyehimba Jess's *Leadbelly*. --Jeff Newberry On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 11:52 AM, David Graham wrote: > Speaking of shredding & women guitarists, ever heard Sister Rosetta Tharp > tear it up on electric guitar? > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeaBNAXfHfQ > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xzr_GBa8qk&feature=related > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Oct 16, 2011, at 10:41 AM, Jerry McGuire wrote: > > Nothing pleases me more than when others do my work. And where's BG to > tell us that we've excluded visual guitarists? (But I _didn't,_ Bob! I'm all > about shredding air and whipping hair.) And how come no woman has come > forward to say that Mary Ford did everything Les Paul did, but backwards and > in heels?) > > Jerry > > On 10/16/2011 10:27 AM, David Graham wrote: > > Whatya think, shall we let others play this game? > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and lived syncopation. ?Yusef Komunyakaa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 11:56:49 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 10:56:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Best" In-Reply-To: <5E7E33A3-3859-49CF-A675-DA7092E6A8C0@ripon.edu> References: <1318713019.40929.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4E9A1883.1050500@louisiana.edu> <33F392B1-2F93-4CC2-A465-993944675C20@ripon.edu> <4E9A8635.5070804@louisiana.edu> <71F34092-2A49-4C21-A089-2722B4D4486A@ripon.edu> <4E9AFB40.50900@louisiana.edu> <5E7E33A3-3859-49CF-A675-DA7092E6A8C0@ripon.edu> Message-ID: David, I keep waiting for some of these folks you mention to turn up on your playlists on Spotify, but haven't seen any. You can't expect me to remember them all. Or even write down their names. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 10:52 AM, David Graham wrote: > Speaking of shredding & women guitarists, ever heard Sister Rosetta Tharp > tear it up on electric guitar? > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeaBNAXfHfQ > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xzr_GBa8qk&feature=related > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Oct 16, 2011, at 10:41 AM, Jerry McGuire wrote: > > Nothing pleases me more than when others do my work. And where's BG to > tell us that we've excluded visual guitarists? (But I _didn't,_ Bob! I'm all > about shredding air and whipping hair.) And how come no woman has come > forward to say that Mary Ford did everything Les Paul did, but backwards and > in heels?) > > Jerry > > On 10/16/2011 10:27 AM, David Graham wrote: > > Whatya think, shall we let others play this game? > > _______________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Oct 16 12:04:26 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 11:04:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems about the Blues In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6187810B-88B9-4D76-9C07-4D7C2347FD4D@ripon.edu> I really love Kevin Young's *Blues Poems* anthology, in the Everyman Pocket Poets series. Full of great stuff, and he quite sensibly includes composers like W.C. Handy & singers like Ma Rainey alongside poets like Langston Hughes. A nice discovery for me in this book were the poems of Waring Cuney. Here's one of his: Down-Home Boy I'm a down-home boy trying to get ahead. It seems like I go backwards instead. Been in Chicago over a year. Had nothing down home, not much here. A measly job, a greedy boss-- that's how come I left Waycross. Those Great Lake winds blow all around. I'm a light-coat man in a heavy-coat town. --Waring Cuney. Blues Poems. Ed. Kevin Young. Knopf (Everyman's Library Pocket Poets), 2003. ========= I really need to read Jess's Leadbelly. When Patricia Smith came to read at Ripon College, that was the book she was raving and raving about. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Oct 16, 2011, at 10:57 AM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > Sister Rosetta is awesome. Thanks for posting these, David. And thank you all for posting these blues poems. They are great. > > Here's a game: let's name some books of poems that explicitly address the blues or blues musicians. > > I'll start with a favorite of mine, Tyehimba Jess's Leadbelly. > > --Jeff Newberry > > On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 11:52 AM, David Graham wrote: > Speaking of shredding & women guitarists, ever heard Sister Rosetta Tharp tear it up on electric guitar? > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeaBNAXfHfQ > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xzr_GBa8qk&feature=related > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Oct 16, 2011, at 10:41 AM, Jerry McGuire wrote: > >> Nothing pleases me more than when others do my work. And where's BG to tell us that we've excluded visual guitarists? (But I _didn't,_ Bob! I'm all about shredding air and whipping hair.) And how come no woman has come forward to say that Mary Ford did everything Les Paul did, but backwards and in heels?) >> >> Jerry >> >> On 10/16/2011 10:27 AM, David Graham wrote: >>> >>> Whatya think, shall we let others play this game? >>> >> _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and lived syncopation. ?Yusef Komunyakaa > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Oct 16 12:14:06 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 11:14:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Best" In-Reply-To: References: <1318713019.40929.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4E9A1883.1050500@louisiana.edu> <33F392B1-2F93-4CC2-A465-993944675C20@ripon.edu> <4E9A8635.5070804@louisiana.edu> <71F34092-2A49-4C21-A089-2722B4D4486A@ripon.edu> <4E9AFB40.50900@louisiana.edu> <5E7E33A3-3859-49CF-A675-DA7092E6A8C0@ripon.edu> Message-ID: I checked out Spotify, free version, just to see if I was missing anything over at Rhapsody. Aside from being annoyed by the advertising, I decided I wasn't missing much. Put some favorites into the search box that I can listen to at Rhapsody & struck out, for instance. In fairness, the reverse was also true; I found some Spotified music that Rhapsody doesn't have, and quite a large amount of overlap, too. Don't know if you get access to a larger catalog with the paid subscription, as a matter of fact. But I know you have to pay to use Spotify on mobile devices, which is the way I listen most often to my Rhapsody music these days. Upshot is, I don't seem to visit the Spot much, and attempted (apparently without full success) to disable all "sharing" features. If I did it right, you shouldn't see ANY playlists of mine, actually. . . . And no, I don't suppose I can expect you to do anything at all! ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Oct 16, 2011, at 10:56 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > David, I keep waiting for some of these folks you mention to turn up on your playlists on Spotify, but haven't seen any. You can't expect me to remember them all. Or even write down their names. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > > > On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 10:52 AM, David Graham wrote: > Speaking of shredding & women guitarists, ever heard Sister Rosetta Tharp tear it up on electric guitar? > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeaBNAXfHfQ > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xzr_GBa8qk&feature=related > > > > > > On Oct 16, 2011, at 10:41 AM, Jerry McGuire wrote: > >> Nothing pleases me more than when others do my work. And where's BG to tell us that we've excluded visual guitarists? (But I _didn't,_ Bob! I'm all about shredding air and whipping hair.) And how come no woman has come forward to say that Mary Ford did everything Les Paul did, but backwards and in heels?) >> >> Jerry >> >> On 10/16/2011 10:27 AM, David Graham wrote: >>> >>> Whatya think, shall we let others play this game? >>> >> _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 12:31:01 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 11:31:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Best" In-Reply-To: References: <1318713019.40929.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4E9A1883.1050500@louisiana.edu> <33F392B1-2F93-4CC2-A465-993944675C20@ripon.edu> <4E9A8635.5070804@louisiana.edu> <71F34092-2A49-4C21-A089-2722B4D4486A@ripon.edu> <4E9AFB40.50900@louisiana.edu> <5E7E33A3-3859-49CF-A675-DA7092E6A8C0@ripon.edu> Message-ID: At $5 per month, it's easy not to get the ads. I don't use a mobile for listening, so no need to spend $10 for that and no ads. And there's enough for me to adventure in for the rest of this life. (Including what's on my own machine.) For me, a dream come true. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 11:14 AM, David Graham wrote: > I checked out Spotify, free version, just to see if I was missing anything > over at Rhapsody. Aside from being annoyed by the advertising, I decided I > wasn't missing much. > > Put some favorites into the search box that I can listen to at Rhapsody & > struck out, for instance. In fairness, the reverse was also true; I found > some Spotified music that Rhapsody doesn't have, and quite a large amount of > overlap, too. Don't know if you get access to a larger catalog with the > paid subscription, as a matter of fact. But I know you have to pay to use > Spotify on mobile devices, which is the way I listen most often to my > Rhapsody music these days. > > Upshot is, I don't seem to visit the Spot much, and attempted (apparently > without full success) to disable all "sharing" features. If I did it right, > you shouldn't see ANY playlists of mine, actually. . . . > > And no, I don't suppose I can expect you to do anything at all! > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Oct 16, 2011, at 10:56 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > > David, I keep waiting for some of these folks you mention to turn up on > your playlists on Spotify, but haven't seen any. You can't expect me to > remember them all. Or even write down their names. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > > > On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 10:52 AM, David Graham wrote: > >> Speaking of shredding & women guitarists, ever heard Sister Rosetta Tharp >> tear it up on electric guitar? >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeaBNAXfHfQ >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xzr_GBa8qk&feature=related >> >> >> >> >> >> On Oct 16, 2011, at 10:41 AM, Jerry McGuire wrote: >> >> Nothing pleases me more than when others do my work. And where's BG to >> tell us that we've excluded visual guitarists? (But I _didn't,_ Bob! I'm all >> about shredding air and whipping hair.) And how come no woman has come >> forward to say that Mary Ford did everything Les Paul did, but backwards and >> in heels?) >> >> Jerry >> >> On 10/16/2011 10:27 AM, David Graham wrote: >> >> Whatya think, shall we let others play this game? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Oct 16 12:41:09 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 11:41:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Best" In-Reply-To: References: <1318713019.40929.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4E9A1883.1050500@louisiana.edu> <33F392B1-2F93-4CC2-A465-993944675C20@ripon.edu> <4E9A8635.5070804@louisiana.edu> <71F34092-2A49-4C21-A089-2722B4D4486A@ripon.edu> <4E9AFB40.50900@louisiana.edu> <5E7E33A3-3859-49CF-A675-DA7092E6A8C0@ripon.edu> Message-ID: Yes, Spotify does sound like rather a good deal. For me, just not gooder enough to make me switch from a service I'm happy with, I guess. And yes, with all this music, art, and literature on the web, a great deal of it for free, and most of the rest quite cheap, I am quite literally living the dream I dreamed in my youth. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Oct 16, 2011, at 11:31 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > At $5 per month, it's easy not to get the ads. I don't use a mobile for listening, so no need to spend $10 for that and no ads. And there's enough for me to adventure in for the rest of this life. (Including what's on my own machine.) For me, a dream come true. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; > Transparencies & Projections > > > > > On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 11:14 AM, David Graham wrote: > I checked out Spotify, free version, just to see if I was missing anything over at Rhapsody. Aside from being annoyed by the advertising, I decided I wasn't missing much. > > Put some favorites into the search box that I can listen to at Rhapsody & struck out, for instance. In fairness, the reverse was also true; I found some Spotified music that Rhapsody doesn't have, and quite a large amount of overlap, too. Don't know if you get access to a larger catalog with the paid subscription, as a matter of fact. But I know you have to pay to use Spotify on mobile devices, which is the way I listen most often to my Rhapsody music these days. > > Upshot is, I don't seem to visit the Spot much, and attempted (apparently without full success) to disable all "sharing" features. If I did it right, you shouldn't see ANY playlists of mine, actually. . . . > > And no, I don't suppose I can expect you to do anything at all! > > > > ======================================== > David Graham -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Sun Oct 16 15:04:33 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 14:04:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Best" [Or, Poems about the Blues] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4E9B2AC1.6010204@louisiana.edu> I want to help, truly I do, and the fog in my head _wants_ to lift, but something (a kind of menu box) keeps coming up denying me entrance. I've read some poems, beginning with Langston Hughes and edging into Amiri Baraka, that catch some blues energy. But it's one of those niches I shy away from, generally, because (like "jazz poetry") it tends to descend into faux-hipster name-dropping: Coltrane this and Miles that, etc. It's easy to do, and I've certainly slipped there once or twice myself. Poetry that edges too neatly into hero-worship may make it into Plato's republic, but not mine. I'll be curious to see what other instances people here come up with. (And thanks for _Leadbelly_; I'll try it out.) Jerry On 10/16/2011 10:57 AM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > Sister Rosetta is awesome. Thanks for posting these, David. And thank > you all for posting these blues poems. They are great. > > Here's a game: let's name some books of poems that explicitly address > the blues or blues musicians. > > I'll start with a favorite of mine, Tyehimba Jess's /Leadbelly/. > > --Jeff Newberry > > On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 11:52 AM, David Graham > wrote: > > Speaking of shredding & women guitarists, ever heard Sister > Rosetta Tharp tear it up on electric guitar? > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeaBNAXfHfQ > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xzr_GBa8qk&feature=related > > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Oct 16, 2011, at 10:41 AM, Jerry McGuire wrote: > >> Nothing pleases me more than when others do my work. And where's >> BG to tell us that we've excluded visual guitarists? (But I >> _didn't,_ Bob! I'm all about shredding air and whipping hair.) >> And how come no woman has come forward to say that Mary Ford did >> everything Les Paul did, but backwards and in heels?) >> >> Jerry >> >> On 10/16/2011 10:27 AM, David Graham wrote: >>> Whatya think, shall we let others play this game? >>> >> _______________________________________________ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics > embodied in language's natural music.It isn't a gush, but a felt and > lived syncopation. ---Yusef Komunyakaa > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Oct 16 16:42:38 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 15:42:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems about the Blues In-Reply-To: <6187810B-88B9-4D76-9C07-4D7C2347FD4D@ripon.edu> References: <6187810B-88B9-4D76-9C07-4D7C2347FD4D@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <825033AD-23C2-4BEE-989C-6C25572557D5@ripon.edu> Another one by Waring Cuney-- Carry Me Back Carry me back to old Virginia. Magnolia blossoms fill the air. Carry me back to old Virginia: the only way you'll get me there. --Waring Cuney. Blues Poems. Ed. Kevin Young. Knopf (Everyman's Library Pocket Poets), 2003. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 16:50:20 2011 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 16:50:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Best" [Or, Poems about the Blues] In-Reply-To: <4E9B2AC1.6010204@louisiana.edu> References: <4E9B2AC1.6010204@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: Jerry, I wrote my dissertation on jazz poetry, so forgive me if I seem pedantic (I don't want to seem that way). Jazz poetry is, of course, an incredibly problematic term. Does it mean poetry about jazz? Poetry about jazz musicians? Poetry that in some specific way tries to capture the rhythms of jazz music? For me, I think of jazz poetry as poems that attempt to capture the improvisatory nature of jazz. I'd highly recommend a couple of books: Hayden Carruth's *Sitting In* and Sacha Feinstein's *Jazz Poetry*. Both address this question (what is jazz poetry?) much more specifically than I have here. For me, too, another important thing to note is Ralph Ellison's notion of the "jazz moment." In his book of essays, *Shadow and Act*, Ellison discusses the jazz moment, which he describes (essentially) as a tension between the individual voice/musician and the band. In his book *Playing the Changes*, Craig Werner extends and elaborates on the idea. I'd track it down. The jazz poets I love (Komunyakaa, T.R. Hummer, Melvin Tolson, Ed Pavlic, and others) don't merely drop names. For them, jazz is a way of seeing the world, an alternative to cult of the individual pedaled by a great number of folks in the literary establishment. I don't mean to sound derogatory here, so pleased don't misunderstand me. I think that the jazz poet is a poet who tries to find his place in the line of tradition as opposed either a) ignoring tradition (another problematic term, I realize) or b) pretending that tradition isn't important. Etheridge Knight once said that whether or not a jazz poem *must *be about jazz is a moot, academic point. I agree. For me, it's not about what you write; it's about how. My best, Jeff Newberry On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 3:04 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: > I want to help, truly I do, and the fog in my head _wants_ to lift, but > something (a kind of menu box) keeps coming up denying me entrance. I've > read some poems, beginning with Langston Hughes and edging into Amiri > Baraka, that catch some blues energy. But it's one of those niches I shy > away from, generally, because (like "jazz poetry") it tends to descend into > faux-hipster name-dropping: Coltrane this and Miles that, etc. It's easy to > do, and I've certainly slipped there once or twice myself. Poetry that edges > too neatly into hero-worship may make it into Plato's republic, but not > mine. I'll be curious to see what other instances people here come up with. > (And thanks for _Leadbelly_; I'll try it out.) > > Jerry > > > On 10/16/2011 10:57 AM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > > Sister Rosetta is awesome. Thanks for posting these, David. And thank you > all for posting these blues poems. They are great. > > Here's a game: let's name some books of poems that explicitly address the > blues or blues musicians. > > I'll start with a favorite of mine, Tyehimba Jess's *Leadbelly*. > > --Jeff Newberry > > On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 11:52 AM, David Graham wrote: > >> Speaking of shredding & women guitarists, ever heard Sister Rosetta Tharp >> tear it up on electric guitar? >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeaBNAXfHfQ >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xzr_GBa8qk&feature=related >> >> >> >> >> ======================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd at ripon.edu >> >> Home Page: >> http://web.me.com/drjazz >> >> Poetry Library: >> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >> ========================================== >> >> >> >> >> On Oct 16, 2011, at 10:41 AM, Jerry McGuire wrote: >> >> Nothing pleases me more than when others do my work. And where's BG to >> tell us that we've excluded visual guitarists? (But I _didn't,_ Bob! I'm all >> about shredding air and whipping hair.) And how come no woman has come >> forward to say that Mary Ford did everything Les Paul did, but backwards and >> in heels?) >> >> Jerry >> >> On 10/16/2011 10:27 AM, David Graham wrote: >> >> Whatya think, shall we let others play this game? >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics > embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and > lived syncopation. ?Yusef Komunyakaa > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and lived syncopation. ?Yusef Komunyakaa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Sun Oct 16 16:51:46 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 13:51:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Invitation to Poetry Related Events at this year's October HOWL ! ARTS Project Benefit Oct 1 - 31: Bill Manville's SALOON SOCIETY; POETS for RENEWABLE ENERGY and PEACE; In Peace and War 3 TEENS KILL 4 In-Reply-To: <34.47.19950.0FA0A9E4@hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com> References: <34.47.19950.0FA0A9E4@hrndva-omtalb.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: <1318798306.18160.YahooMailNeo@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> ----- Forwarded Message ----- From: Nathaniel Siegel ? ? ? ? Friday Oct 21 7:00 PM -9:00 PM Bill Manville?s SALOON SOCIETY ? SALOON SOCIETY is a stage version of Bill Manville's brilliant VILLAGE VOICE column of the late 1950's, capturing the drinking days and nights of the bar crowd of the Beat era. Set to a jazz score, the play takes us to the San Remo, where the lost-and-found souls Manville calls the "intellectuals, horned-rimmed men, poets, dancers, the beat and the bearded and their black-stockinged women, acrobats, tenors, sexual engineers, Spanish waiters, bust-ups and run-aways" act out their lives in vivid poetic fashion. The NY TIMES called SALOON SOCIETY "a downtown bromide, clever, the essence of bitter-sweet, and studded with little gems of truth." With J. Eric Cook, Dana Watkins, Nalina Mann, David Arthur Bachrach, Tony Torn, Frances Uku, Alex Bilu, Carmit Levite, andDan Illian. Direction and stage adaption byJim Milton, with assistance byJoan Meltzer. Immediately after the show, there will be a talk-back led by noted biographer, Patricia Bosworth. ? Advance benefit tickets $10.00 go to: http://www.brownpapertickets.com/event/206431 ? ? Sunday Oct 23 1:00 PM - 4:00 PM Poets for Renewable Energy and Peace (PREP) ? Featuring: Anne Waldman, The Mast (Haale Gafori and Matt Kilmer), Sahar Muradi, Zohra Saed, Sara Goudarzi, Bob Rosenthal, Papoleto Melendez, Yusuf Misdaq, Tahani Salah, Jackie Sheeler, Chris Brandt, David Henderson, Eliot Katz, and surprise special guests. ? Come hear performances by emerging poets whose families are from Afghanistan and the Middle East; poet Anne Waldman, whose 1,000-page feminist epic, The Iovis Trilogy, has just been published by Coffee House Press; music from the Brooklyn-based duo, The Mast (featuring Haale Gafori and Matt Kilmer), whose debut album, "Wild Poppies,"has been receiving rave reviews; a group reading of Allen Ginsberg's great anti-nuclear energy poem, "Plutonian Ode"; and a diverse group of longtime New York poets, including some who worked closely with Allen Ginsberg for many years. ? This event is being produced by a recently created NYC-based group, Poets for Renewable Energy and Peace (PREP), which hopes to inspire new and growing activism against war and nuclear energy. ? Advance benefit tickets $10.00 go to: http://www.brownpapertickets.com/event/202153 ? Poets for Renewable Energy and Peace 10/23/11 event bios: ? Born in Kabul , Sahar Muradi is a co-editor of One Story, Thirty Stories: An Anthology of Contemporary Afghan-American Literature.? Her publications include HOW2 Journal, Sojourner, Green Mountains Review, Phat'itude, and Open City. ? A widely anthologized writer, Zohra Saed is the other co-editor of One Story, Thirty Stories: An Anthology of Contemporary Afghan-American Literature. Her first book of poetry, The Secret Lives of Misspelled Cities, will be released in 2012. ? Anne Waldman is the author of over 40 books of poetry. Her latest volume, The Iovis Trilogy: Colors in the Mechanism of Concealment, a 1,000-page montage epic taking on the issues of war and patriarchy, was just published by Coffee House Press. Along with Allen Ginsberg, Waldman is the cofounder of Naropa University 's Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics. ? The Brooklyn-based duo, The Mast, released their highly acclaimed debut CD, "Wild Poppies," in June 2011. In The Mast, Iranian-American singer and guitarist, Haale Gafori, is accompanied by expert percussionist Matt Kilmer. Haale and Matt have toured widely, playing such venues as the David Byrne-curated series at Carnegie Hall and the Bonnaroo festival. ? Sara Goudarzi is a New York City poet and performer, who was born in Tehran and grew up in Iran , Kenya , and the U.S. She is the founder and co-editor of /One/ The Journal of Literature, Art and Ideas. Her writing has appeared in National Geographic News, The Christian Science Monitor, and Drunken Boat, among others. ? Bob Rosenthal's books include Morning Poems, Viburnum, Eleven Psalms, and Cleaning Up New York. Having served as Allen Ginsberg's secretary for 20 years, Rosenthal has recently completed a non-fiction volume, based on his work with Ginsberg, which is currently seeking a publishing home. ? Jesus Papoleto Melendez is one of the founders of the Nuyorican poets movement. His poetry books include Street Poetry and Other Poems, and Concerto On Market Street. His play, The Junkie Stole the Clock, was the first production of the Nuyorican Playwrights Unit of The New York Shakespeare Festival. ? Yusuf Misdaq is an Afghan writer, poet, musician, and filmmaker, who was raised by the sea in Brighton , England . The author of six poetry books and three novels, Misdaq has also released three music LPs and experimental documentary films. Two novels are forthcoming: Narayan, and The Steep Ascent. ? Tahani Salah is a poet, educator, and activist from Brooklyn . She was a member of the 2007 Nuyorican National Slam Team, and has appeared on the HBO series, Def Poetry Jam. As a Muslim Palestinian-American woman, Tahani is committed to bringing light and solutions to problems faced by people from communities whose voices are often silenced. ? Jackie Sheeler is a card-carrying activist whose books include Earthquake Came to Harlem , and The Memory Factory. She is the editor of Off the Cuffs: Poetry by and About the Police, and has also released several wordrock recordings: Talk Engine and Something for Junior. ? Chris Brandt's poems and essays have been published in numerous journals in the U.S. and internationally, including Lateral, El signo del gorrion, La Jornada, Phati'tude, and The Unbearables. He has published translations of Cuban fiction and poetry, as well as a translation of Clara Nieto's Masters of War, a history of U.S. interventions in Latin America . ? David Henderson's poetry books include De Mayor of Harlem and Neo-California. In addition, Henderson is the author of the bestselling biography, "Scuse Me While I Kiss the Sky": Jimi Hendrix Voodoo Child, which is now available in a 30-year anniversary edition. He is also the editor of the upcoming Umbra Omnibus, a collection of key writings from one of the seminal Black Arts Movement groups, of which Henderson was a founding member. ? Poet and activist Eliot Katz is the author of six books of poetry, including Unlocking the Exits, and Love, War, Fire, Wind, a collaboration with the artist, William T. Ayton. Katz is also a coeditor, with Allen Ginsberg and Andy Clausen, of Poems for the Nation, a collection of political poems that Ginsberg was compiling in the mid-1990s. ? Thurs, Fri, Sat Oct 27, 28, 29? 8:00 PM - 9:30 PM In Peace & War: 3 TEENS KILL 4 ? Post-punk EV/LES legends 3 Teens Kill 4 (whose lineup also included the late artist David Wojnarowicz) present a multi-media exploration into their music including film and video, animation, live performance by the band (multi-instrumentalists Brian Butterick, Julie Hair, Jesse Hultberg, Doug Bressler and drummer/percussionistBill Gerstel) with special guests including choreography byIshmael Houston-Jones, an appearance byAntony (of Antony & the Johnsons) and others... ? Advance benefit tickets $ 20.00 go to: http://www.brownpapertickets.com/event/200443 ? HOWL ! Arts Project H.E.L.P. Benefit Performances October 1-31 Theatre 80 in the East Village : 80 Saint Marks Place and First Avenue ? Advance benefit tickets go to:? http://www.brownpapertickets.com/profile/15974 HOWL ! Calendar go to: http://www.howlfestival.com/festival/calendar/ ? ? ? ********* Amy's Alias +?http://amyking.org/? ******** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Oct 16 17:09:11 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 16:09:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems about the Blues In-Reply-To: <825033AD-23C2-4BEE-989C-6C25572557D5@ripon.edu> References: <6187810B-88B9-4D76-9C07-4D7C2347FD4D@ripon.edu> <825033AD-23C2-4BEE-989C-6C25572557D5@ripon.edu> Message-ID: Probably my favorite blues poem-- Homage to the Empress of the Blues Because there was a man somewhere in a candystripe silk shirt gracile and dangerous as a jaguar and because a woman moaned for him in sixty-watt gloom and mourned him Faithless Love Twotiming Love Oh Love Oh Careless Aggravating Love, She came out on stage in yards of pearls, emerging like a favorite scenic view, flashed her golden smile and sang Because grey laths began somewhere to show from underneath torn hurdygurdy lithographs of dollfaced heaven; and because there were those who feared alarming fists of snow on the door and those who feared the riot squad of statistics, She came out on stage in ostrich feathers, beaded satin, and shone that smile on us and sang. --Robert Hayden. Collected Poems. Liveright, 1997. One thing I like about Kevin Young's blues anthology is its inclusiveness, not worrying the question of definitions but mostly presenting several kinds of relevant poems: actual blues lyrics sung by Ma Rainey, Robert Johnson, & others; page poems written in blues stanzas; poems about the blues or blues musicians; and poems that just seem to have a blues "feel." It's that last category, of course, that is most problematic and interesting, akin to what Jeff Newberry noted about jazz poems being a way of seeing the world. Lots of overlap, both of poets and sometimes poems, between the realms of blues and jazz poetry, too, naturally. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Oct 16, 2011, at 3:42 PM, David Graham wrote: > Another one by Waring Cuney-- > > Carry Me Back > > Carry me back to old Virginia. > Magnolia blossoms fill the air. > Carry me back to old Virginia: > the only way you'll get me there. > > --Waring Cuney. Blues Poems. Ed. Kevin Young. Knopf (Everyman's Library Pocket Poets), 2003. > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Oct 16 17:17:26 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 16:17:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems about the Blues: Cornelius Eady In-Reply-To: <825033AD-23C2-4BEE-989C-6C25572557D5@ripon.edu> References: <6187810B-88B9-4D76-9C07-4D7C2347FD4D@ripon.edu> <825033AD-23C2-4BEE-989C-6C25572557D5@ripon.edu> Message-ID: One more from the Kevin Young anthology-- Muddy Waters & the Chicago Blues Good news from the windy city: Thomas Edison's Time on the planet has been validated. The guitars And harps begin their slow transition Of the street, an SOS of what you need And what you have. The way this life Tries to roar you down, you have to fight Fire with fire: the amplified power Of a hip rotating in an upstairs flat Vs. the old indignities; the static Heat of nothing, nowhere, No how against this conversation Of fingers and tongues, this Rent party above the Slaughter-house. --Cornelius Eady. Blues Poems. Ed. Kevin Young. Knopf (Everyman's Library Pocket Poets), 2003. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Sun Oct 16 17:29:02 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 16:29:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Best" [Or, Poems about the Blues] In-Reply-To: References: <4E9B2AC1.6010204@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <4E9B4C9E.8070506@louisiana.edu> Yes, Jeff, I know the stuff you're talking about (except for Werner). Some of it has struck me as insightful and some hasn't. I wasn't damning all "jazz poetry" (which I believe I put in quotes the first time, too), but a hack version of it. To me the various descriptions you offer all fit, and I have to objection whatever to anyone following his/her nose wherever it takes them. Indeed, beautiful things have come from gross misunderstandings as well as impeccable knowledge. The fact remains that the only ones that interest me personally are the melopoeic ones--finding a common reach for the aspirations of making something out of the sounds and shapes of words and the aspirations that musicians (by which I mean composers as well as players, and classical and pop musicians as well as jazz [or should I say "jazz-identified"?] people) bring to their work. That includes psychodynamics, aesthetics, and technique, and to some extent, a set of attitudes. I think that the hack work that's bothered me has mistaken the matter of attitude. Working with great musicians has been revelatory for me. I remember an 8-hour rehearsal with Bobby Previte (he wrote a piece of 11 instruments and two singers around a poem of mine) in which he meticulously pared away the accumulated habits the young (university, mostly) musicians gathered for the task. I always felt that every word he said should be applied as well to making things out of words. His sense of the absolute instant (that you must be in each distinct moment fully, and commit yourself unreservedly to making each moment as beautiful as you humanly can) has been with me ever since. It's not easy to live up to, but neither were Ellington's or Mingus's or Davis's expectations. So I'm not arguing with you, though perhaps we differ here and there--and perhaps more on matters of emphasis than on matters of fact. One other book that you may find interesting is David Sudnow's _Talk's Body_. He writes about his two keyboardso--jazz piano and word processor--and the psychological experience of improvising. Best, Jerry On 10/16/2011 3:50 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > Jerry, I wrote my dissertation on jazz poetry, so forgive me if I seem > pedantic (I don't want to seem that way). > > Jazz poetry is, of course, an incredibly problematic term. Does it > mean poetry about jazz? Poetry about jazz musicians? Poetry that in > some specific way tries to capture the rhythms of jazz music? For me, > I think of jazz poetry as poems that attempt to capture the > improvisatory nature of jazz. I'd highly recommend a couple of books: > Hayden Carruth's *Sitting In* and Sacha Feinstein's *Jazz Poetry*. > Both address this question (what is jazz poetry?) much more > specifically than I have here. > > For me, too, another important thing to note is Ralph Ellison's notion > of the "jazz moment." In his book of essays, *Shadow and Act*, Ellison > discusses the jazz moment, which he describes (essentially) as a > tension between the individual voice/musician and the band. In his > book *Playing the Changes*, Craig Werner extends and elaborates on the > idea. I'd track it down. > > The jazz poets I love (Komunyakaa, T.R. Hummer, Melvin Tolson, Ed > Pavlic, and others) don't merely drop names. For them, jazz is a way > of seeing the world, an alternative to cult of the individual pedaled > by a great number of folks in the literary establishment. I don't mean > to sound derogatory here, so pleased don't misunderstand me. I think > that the jazz poet is a poet who tries to find his place in the line > of tradition as opposed either a) ignoring tradition (another > problematic term, I realize) or b) pretending that tradition isn't > important. > > Etheridge Knight once said that whether or not a jazz poem /must /be > about jazz is a moot, academic point. I agree. For me, it's not about > what you write; it's about how. > > My best, > Jeff Newberry > > On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 3:04 PM, Jerry McGuire > wrote: > > I want to help, truly I do, and the fog in my head _wants_ to > lift, but something (a kind of menu box) keeps coming up denying > me entrance. I've read some poems, beginning with Langston Hughes > and edging into Amiri Baraka, that catch some blues energy. But > it's one of those niches I shy away from, generally, because (like > "jazz poetry") it tends to descend into faux-hipster > name-dropping: Coltrane this and Miles that, etc. It's easy to do, > and I've certainly slipped there once or twice myself. Poetry that > edges too neatly into hero-worship may make it into Plato's > republic, but not mine. I'll be curious to see what other > instances people here come up with. (And thanks for _Leadbelly_; > I'll try it out.) > > Jerry > > > On 10/16/2011 10:57 AM, Jeff Newberry wrote: >> Sister Rosetta is awesome. Thanks for posting these, David. And >> thank you all for posting these blues poems. They are great. >> >> Here's a game: let's name some books of poems that explicitly >> address the blues or blues musicians. >> >> I'll start with a favorite of mine, Tyehimba Jess's /Leadbelly/. >> >> --Jeff Newberry >> >> On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 11:52 AM, David Graham > > wrote: >> >> Speaking of shredding & women guitarists, ever heard Sister >> Rosetta Tharp tear it up on electric guitar? >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeaBNAXfHfQ >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xzr_GBa8qk&feature=related >> >> >> >> >> >> ======================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd at ripon.edu >> >> Home Page: >> http://web.me.com/drjazz >> >> Poetry Library: >> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >> ========================================== >> >> >> >> >> On Oct 16, 2011, at 10:41 AM, Jerry McGuire wrote: >> >>> Nothing pleases me more than when others do my work. And >>> where's BG to tell us that we've excluded visual guitarists? >>> (But I _didn't,_ Bob! I'm all about shredding air and >>> whipping hair.) And how come no woman has come forward to >>> say that Mary Ford did everything Les Paul did, but >>> backwards and in heels?) >>> >>> Jerry >>> >>> On 10/16/2011 10:27 AM, David Graham wrote: >>>> Whatya think, shall we let others play this game? >>>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to >> metrics embodied in language's natural music.It isn't a gush, but >> a felt and lived syncopation. ---Yusef Komunyakaa >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics > embodied in language's natural music.It isn't a gush, but a felt and > lived syncopation. ---Yusef Komunyakaa > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Sun Oct 16 18:47:49 2011 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 18:47:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Best" [Or, Poems about the Blues] In-Reply-To: <4E9B4C9E.8070506@louisiana.edu> References: <4E9B2AC1.6010204@louisiana.edu> <4E9B4C9E.8070506@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: Jerry, I don't know Sudnow's book. I'll definitely look it up. For the record, I feel the same way about poets who drop in references to jazz in some ham-handed attempt to be cool (or whatever). Ditto references to the blues or Romanticism or postmodernism or any other external system. Thanks for your input. I am always interested in different ways of thinking about/talking about jazz and jazz poetics. Another book that comes to mind is Paul Berliner's *Thinking in Jazz: The Infinite Art of Improvisation.* All my best, Jeff Newberry On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 5:29 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: > Yes, Jeff, I know the stuff you're talking about (except for Werner). > Some of it has struck me as insightful and some hasn't. I wasn't damning all > "jazz poetry" (which I believe I put in quotes the first time, too), but a > hack version of it. To me the various descriptions you offer all fit, and I > have to objection whatever to anyone following his/her nose wherever it > takes them. Indeed, beautiful things have come from gross misunderstandings > as well as impeccable knowledge. The fact remains that the only ones that > interest me personally are the melopoeic ones--finding a common reach for > the aspirations of making something out of the sounds and shapes of words > and the aspirations that musicians (by which I mean composers as well as > players, and classical and pop musicians as well as jazz [or should I say > "jazz-identified"?] people) bring to their work. That includes > psychodynamics, aesthetics, and technique, and to some extent, a set of > attitudes. I think that the hack work that's bothered me has mistaken the > matter of attitude. Working with great musicians has been revelatory for me. > I remember an 8-hour rehearsal with Bobby Previte (he wrote a piece of 11 > instruments and two singers around a poem of mine) in which he meticulously > pared away the accumulated habits the young (university, mostly) musicians > gathered for the task. I always felt that every word he said should be > applied as well to making things out of words. His sense of the absolute > instant (that you must be in each distinct moment fully, and commit yourself > unreservedly to making each moment as beautiful as you humanly can) has been > with me ever since. It's not easy to live up to, but neither were > Ellington's or Mingus's or Davis's expectations. > > So I'm not arguing with you, though perhaps we differ here and there--and > perhaps more on matters of emphasis than on matters of fact. One other book > that you may find interesting is David Sudnow's _Talk's Body_. He writes > about his two keyboardso--jazz piano and word processor--and the > psychological experience of improvising. > > Best, > > Jerry > > > On 10/16/2011 3:50 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > > Jerry, I wrote my dissertation on jazz poetry, so forgive me if I seem > pedantic (I don't want to seem that way). > > Jazz poetry is, of course, an incredibly problematic term. Does it mean > poetry about jazz? Poetry about jazz musicians? Poetry that in some specific > way tries to capture the rhythms of jazz music? For me, I think of jazz > poetry as poems that attempt to capture the improvisatory nature of jazz. > I'd highly recommend a couple of books: Hayden Carruth's *Sitting In* and > Sacha Feinstein's *Jazz Poetry*. Both address this question (what is jazz > poetry?) much more specifically than I have here. > > For me, too, another important thing to note is Ralph Ellison's notion of > the "jazz moment." In his book of essays, *Shadow and Act*, Ellison > discusses the jazz moment, which he describes (essentially) as a tension > between the individual voice/musician and the band. In his book *Playing the > Changes*, Craig Werner extends and elaborates on the idea. I'd track it > down. > > The jazz poets I love (Komunyakaa, T.R. Hummer, Melvin Tolson, Ed Pavlic, > and others) don't merely drop names. For them, jazz is a way of seeing the > world, an alternative to cult of the individual pedaled by a great number of > folks in the literary establishment. I don't mean to sound derogatory here, > so pleased don't misunderstand me. I think that the jazz poet is a poet who > tries to find his place in the line of tradition as opposed either a) > ignoring tradition (another problematic term, I realize) or b) pretending > that tradition isn't important. > > Etheridge Knight once said that whether or not a jazz poem *must *be about > jazz is a moot, academic point. I agree. For me, it's not about what you > write; it's about how. > > My best, > Jeff Newberry > > On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 3:04 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: > >> I want to help, truly I do, and the fog in my head _wants_ to lift, but >> something (a kind of menu box) keeps coming up denying me entrance. I've >> read some poems, beginning with Langston Hughes and edging into Amiri >> Baraka, that catch some blues energy. But it's one of those niches I shy >> away from, generally, because (like "jazz poetry") it tends to descend into >> faux-hipster name-dropping: Coltrane this and Miles that, etc. It's easy to >> do, and I've certainly slipped there once or twice myself. Poetry that edges >> too neatly into hero-worship may make it into Plato's republic, but not >> mine. I'll be curious to see what other instances people here come up with. >> (And thanks for _Leadbelly_; I'll try it out.) >> >> Jerry >> >> >> On 10/16/2011 10:57 AM, Jeff Newberry wrote: >> >> Sister Rosetta is awesome. Thanks for posting these, David. And thank you >> all for posting these blues poems. They are great. >> >> Here's a game: let's name some books of poems that explicitly address the >> blues or blues musicians. >> >> I'll start with a favorite of mine, Tyehimba Jess's *Leadbelly*. >> >> --Jeff Newberry >> >> On Sun, Oct 16, 2011 at 11:52 AM, David Graham wrote: >> >>> Speaking of shredding & women guitarists, ever heard Sister Rosetta Tharp >>> tear it up on electric guitar? >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeaBNAXfHfQ >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xzr_GBa8qk&feature=related >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ======================================== >>> David Graham >>> grahamd at ripon.edu >>> >>> Home Page: >>> http://web.me.com/drjazz >>> >>> Poetry Library: >>> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >>> ========================================== >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Oct 16, 2011, at 10:41 AM, Jerry McGuire wrote: >>> >>> Nothing pleases me more than when others do my work. And where's BG >>> to tell us that we've excluded visual guitarists? (But I _didn't,_ Bob! I'm >>> all about shredding air and whipping hair.) And how come no woman has come >>> forward to say that Mary Ford did everything Les Paul did, but backwards and >>> in heels?) >>> >>> Jerry >>> >>> On 10/16/2011 10:27 AM, David Graham wrote: >>> >>> Whatya think, shall we let others play this game? >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics >> embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and >> lived syncopation. ?Yusef Komunyakaa >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics > embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and > lived syncopation. ?Yusef Komunyakaa > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and lived syncopation. ?Yusef Komunyakaa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Sun Oct 16 21:46:49 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Sun, 16 Oct 2011 18:46:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] (Includes some WOmpos) -- "Beauty is a Verb: The New Poetry of Disability" Message-ID: <1318816009.19290.YahooMailNeo@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Beauty is a Verb: The New Poetry of Disability Edited by Jennifer Bartlett, Sheila Black, and Michael Northen. The anthology provides an understanding of the history and contemporary vitality of the poetry and poetics of the non-normative body. Three sections?"Foremothers and Forefathers," "The Disability Poetics Movement," and "A Language of New Embodiment"?gather the poems and statements on poetics together in a meaningful whole.? Ron Silliman on "Beauty is a Verb" - "...?Beauty?is the book that shows what?identarian?poetry & politics can be in an age that has already absorbed the lessons of Donna?Haraway?s??Cyborg Manifesto? & the works that followed exploding/exploring the concept of identity itself. For the real question for any project like this has to be: Who is disabled? What is a disability? ..." ? Continued here --?http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/2011/09/i-am-old-enough-to-remember-world-of_21.html SPD -?http://www.spdbooks.org/Producte/9781935955054/beauty-is-a-verb-the-new-poetry-of-disability.aspx ? ********* Amy's Alias +?http://amyking.org/? ******** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Mon Oct 17 08:52:08 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 08:52:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has smallaudience In-Reply-To: <1318711278.26217.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1318711278.26217.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7B7641A6-B4CA-4FBA-849F-594D9E1135BD@mikesnider.org> Stephen, I wrote a couple of posts a little more than 2 years ago abut why I write in meter: "I'm a Control Freak" http://mikesnider.org/formalblog/?p=647 and, a few days later, "Line Breaks and Free Verse - a Clarification" http://mikesnider.org/formalblog/?p=654 www.mikesnider.org On Oct 15, 2011, at 16:41, stephen russell wrote: > My big problem with formal poetry is counting stresses. I hear them. I hear the changes in bop as well. Still, try playing bop ... you know ... > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu Mon Oct 17 09:55:13 2011 From: Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu (Edward Byrne) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 08:55:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Publication Announcement: 25th Issue of VPR Message-ID: <4E9BED710200006E0009C730@gwdm1.valpo.edu> I am pleased to announce publication of the 25thissue of Valparaiso Poetry Review: http://www.valpo.edu/vpr/ The Fall/Winter 2011-2012 issue (Volume XIII,Number 1) of VPR includes Ned Balbo as the featured poet. Readers will find inthe contents a trio of new poems by Balbo, as well a review of his latest book,The Trials of Edgar Poe and Other Poems. In addition to Balbo, 35 other poets are represented in the new issue of VPR.The issue also includes reviews of recent books by David Orr, Martha Silano, AlisonStine, and Larry D. Thomas. Gregg Hertzlieb contributes commentary on the coverartwork by Jim Dine. Contents: Featured Poet: Ned Balbo Additional Poets: David B. Axelrod, Lisa Barnett, Michael Bazzett, PhilipBelcher, Deborah Bogen, Karina Borowicz, Sarah Busse, Jared Carter, Joanne M.Clarkson, Carol V. Davis, Susan Donnelly, William Ford, Rebecca Foust, RonHouchin, Bethany Schultz Hurst, Marci Rae Johnson, Greg Keeler, StephenLackaye, Sandy Longhorn, Sheryl Luna, Mary Makofske, John A. Nieves, EdwardNudelman, Angela Alaimo O?Donnell, William Page, Rita Signorelli-Pappas,Ricardo Pau-Llosa, Allan Peterson, Doug Ramspeck, Liz Robbins, Brian Simoneau, Joannie Stangeland, Jeanine Stevens, Robin Tung, Shari Wagner Reviews: Ned Balbo Reviewed by Angela Alaimo O?Donnell; Martha Silano Reviewedby Barbara Crooker; Alison Stine Reviewed by Nick Ripatrazone; Larry D. ThomasReviewed by Jeffrey Alfier; David Orr Reviewed by Edward Byrne Cover Art Commentary; Gregg Hertzlieb on Jim Dine?s Rancho Woodcut Art Recently Received and Recommended Books -------------------------------------------------- Edward Byrne Department of English 322 Huegli Hall Valparaiso University Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu Web Page: http://edwardbyrne.shutterfly.com/ Audio Chapbook: http://wschap4.wordpress.com/ Latest Book: http://www.turningpointbooks.com/byrne-tinted.html Personal Blog: http://www.edwardbyrnepoetry.blogspot.com/ Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu VPR Web Page: http://www.valpo.edu/vpr/ VPR Editor's Blog: http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/ Co-Editor, Valparaiso Fiction Review: http://scholar.valpo.edu/vfr E-mail: vfr at valpo.edu Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 Twitter: http://twitter.com/valpopoetry Fax: (219) 464-5511 -------------------------------------------------- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patriciafanderson at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 10:09:37 2011 From: patriciafanderson at gmail.com (Patricia F Anderson) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 10:09:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience In-Reply-To: <8CE55D31DAF298E-1288-9AD67@webmail-m166.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE55C5F6DAB8FE-23A4-86460@Webmail-m115.sysops.aol.com> <8CE55D31DAF298E-1288-9AD67@webmail-m166.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Just a quick reply to this thread on poetry as a "small audience" topic. * Personal Context: In the past few decades, I've never had the freedom to attend lots of poetry readings, or any other evening events. Single mom, special needs kid, no car, my own issues. I was more likely to attend them in Chicago, where public transit functioned more reliably throughout the evenings. Where I live now (Ann Arbor, University of Michigan), I know very well that there are poetry readings, but I have been unable to discover how to find out when and where they are during the past fifteen years. There must be some email list to subscribe to somewhere, but I've had no luck finding it. It is evidently an in-crowd phenomena here, and I am not part of the in-crowd for poetry here. Thus, most of my poetry activities in recent years have been online. Blogs, social networks, collaborative poetry, Second Life poetry readings (performances) as well as open mics and reading groups (analysis). These are things I can do at home, with the kid, on my own, which do not require transit, or a completely healthy body. I find it rather ironic that as we praise the poetry of disability, we disparage poetry for a lack of engagement with a performance format that requires mobility and ability (or extensive resources and support). * Contemporary Social Context: Culture these days is long-tail culture, niche culture, and that is a GOOD THING. I look forward to the death of the best sellers. The idea of 'audience' is shifting in all areas of art and culture. I love watching poetry leaving the cubby in a corner and embracing social media, mashup/mixup culture, new media, collaborative creation, creating new social environments for the enjoyment and sharing of poetry. I worry about my poet friends who are reluctant to explore these because they are afraid it will impact their ability to sell books or get tenure. Those are old school markers of success. What will be the measure of success in the future? Are they external or internal markers of satisfaction? For myself, I have a vastly richer audience of readers and dialog with them through social media than I ever did through formal readings or publications. The main thing restricting my audience now is my lack of time! I have more audience than I can keep up with, and I don't take good enough care of my relationship with my online readers. I should do more, but have the same challenges with my poetry community as I do with my day job online communities. I need more hours in the day. ;) My two cents, Patricia On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 10:17 PM, Millicent Borges Accardi wrote: > Finnegan, > > I think perhaps there are more "writers" and fewer "readers." > > The same is true for other areas of the arts and society as well. Look at > the number of "reality" shows and You Tube sensations versus traditional > shows written by teams of writers. I can remember not that long ago > attending book signings and readings where the audience was filled with > readers and students and admiring faculty or peers. Folks lined up after, > clutching books in sweaty palms to get an autograph. > > These days the readings I attend are filled with those reading?and those > hoping for their 3 minutes of open microphone. It's rare to find an "actual" > audience. Everyone seems to have an agenda and to be promoting a book. -- Patricia Anderson / SL: Perplexity Peccable pfa at umich.edu OR patriciafanderson at gmail.com Emerging Technologies Librarian, Health Sciences Libraries, University of Michigan, 1135 East Catherine, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 "Google can give you 1,000 answers to your question. A librarian will give you the right one." Anonymous. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Oct 17 10:41:06 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 10:41:06 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Publication Announcement: 25th Issue of VPR In-Reply-To: <4E9BED710200006E0009C730@gwdm1.valpo.edu> References: <4E9BED710200006E0009C730@gwdm1.valpo.edu> Message-ID: <502A1544667C4A8DA9F112C76B631E89@BobHP> From: Edward Byrne Sent: Monday, October 17, 2011 9:55 AM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Publication Announcement: 25th Issue of VPR I am pleased to announce publication of the 25th issue of Valparaiso Poetry Review: http://www.valpo.edu/vpr/ The Fall/Winter 2011-2012 issue (Volume XIII, Number 1) of VPR includes Ned Balbo as the featured poet. Readers will find in the contents a trio of new poems by Balbo, as well a review of his latest book, The Trials of Edgar Poe and Other Poems. In addition to Balbo, 35 other poets are represented in the new issue of VPR. The issue also includes reviews of recent books by David Orr, Martha Silano, Alison Stine, and Larry D. Thomas. Gregg Hertzlieb contributes commentary on the cover artwork by Jim Dine. Contents: Featured Poet: Ned Balbo Additional Poets: David B. Axelrod, Lisa Barnett, Michael Bazzett, Philip Belcher, Deborah Bogen, Karina Borowicz, Sarah Busse, Jared Carter, Joanne M. Clarkson, Carol V. Davis, Susan Donnelly, William Ford, Rebecca Foust, Ron Houchin, Bethany Schultz Hurst, Marci Rae Johnson, Greg Keeler, Stephen Lackaye, Sandy Longhorn, Sheryl Luna, Mary Makofske, John A. Nieves, Edward Nudelman, Angela Alaimo O?Donnell, William Page, Rita Signorelli-Pappas, Ricardo Pau-Llosa, Allan Peterson, Doug Ramspeck, Liz Robbins, Brian Simoneau, Joannie Stangeland, Jeanine Stevens, Robin Tung, Shari Wagner Gah, 35 poets whose names I don?t recall ever having seen before! Nothing against them, the Valparaiso Review?or against me. There are just too many poets in the world?because there are too many people in the world. Solution: freeze 99.9% of the world?s population, randomly chosen, then unfreeze 0.1% of them every thousand years. And pass a law, rigorously enforced, against any woman?s having more than two children. Or find ten thousand habitable habitable planets to divide out population among. Ooops. never mind?I just noticed Edward Nudelman?s name among the contributors to VPR?I recently reviewed him (favorably). Still, I?d not have heard of him if his book hadn?t been sent to me for review. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From seamascain at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 12:56:26 2011 From: seamascain at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9amas_Cain?=) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 11:56:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Radio waves out of Mpls. Message-ID: _____________________________________ S?amas Cain will be interviewed by Lynette Reini-Grandell, of KFAI-FM Radio in the Twin Cities, concerning his new poetry novel THE DANGEROUS ISLANDS ... http://www.kfai.org/writeonradio The interview will air as a part of the "Write On Radio!" program at 7:00 p.m. Central Time on Tuesday, October 18th, 2011 over 90.3 MHz Minneapolis and 106.7 MHz St. Paul, and live on the web at ... http://www.kfai.org The show will be archived for two weeks on line at ... http://www.kfai.org/node/39386 "Write On Radio!" KFAI-FM Radio, 1808 Riverside Avenue South, Minneapolis, Minnesota, 55454. _____________________________________ And, from the RAIN TAXI "Twin Cities Literary Calendar" ... http://www.raintaxi.com/twincitiesliterarycalendar.shtml S?amas Cain will read from his poetry novel THE DANGEROUS ISLANDS at 4:00 p.m. on Sunday, October 23, 2011 at ... MAGERS & QUINN, 3038 Hennepin Avenue South, Minneapolis, Minnesota, 55408 Phone : 612.822.4611 Toll Free : 866.912.6657 _____________________________________ IRELAND IN THE SPRING : A statement by the "Study in Ireland program" at the College of St. Scholastica ... http://www.css.edu/Academics/Study-Abroad/Ireland-in-the-Spring.html _____________________________________ For information about "THE DANGEROUS ISLANDS" ... http://listserv.buffalo.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind1110&L=POETICS&T=0&F=&S=&P=44058 _____________________________________ "The Dangerous Islands" is available from MAGERS & QUINN in Minneapolis ... http://www.magersandquinn.com/index.php?main_page=index THE UMD BOOKSTORES in Duluth ... http://umdstores.com/home.aspx BOEKIE WOEKIE in Amsterdam ... http://boewoe.home.xs4all.nl/ HOUSMANS BOOKSHOP in London ... http://www.housmans.com/ THE LOFT BOOKSHOP in Dublin ... http://theloftbookshop.com GREGORY CARR in Dublin ... http://www.readireland.com _____________________________________ And for additional information, go to ... http://www.freewebs.com/seamascain _____________________________________ From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Mon Oct 17 13:28:51 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 13:28:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience In-Reply-To: References: <8CE55C5F6DAB8FE-23A4-86460@Webmail-m115.sysops.aol.com> <8CE55D31DAF298E-1288-9AD67@webmail-m166.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Patricia, All good points, and I'm very interested in the Second Life readings - are they text or sound, or maybe both? The rest of this isn't directed at you, Patricia, or even in response to you or anyone in particular on the list. But by god I've been to a lot of terrible poetry readings. The physical constraints for in-the-flesh poetry readings are much the same as those for in-the-flesh independent music, and maybe a little less stringent since for the latter there has to be room and support for equipment. I play mandolin in a fairly large band (from 7 to 10 members, depending on the venue and other circumstances), doing almost entirely original music (6 covers on a playlist of more than 80 songs), some of them poems of mine set by our bandleader, and we actually make a little money - no one's quitting their day job, but we've got the money now to do some recording with no one out-of-pocket. We play restaurants, clubs, museums, festivals, and parties, usually 2 or 3 gigs a month - though 2 weekends ago it was 3 in 2 days, 9 hours of music in 27 hours. I think I'm a much better poet than I am mandolinist, and until very recently I'd made maybe $150 over 30 years of writing and (a little) publishing, and, unless I'm at a major university or a big conference like West Chester (which doesn't pay /me/ anyway) the crowds for Fractal Folk in Solomon's Island, MD are at least an order of magnitude greater than the crowds for readings even of well-known poets. I only just began to understand what's going on. People can talk while we play, or make out if it's dark enough or they're drunk enough, or dance, and they come and go as they please, and order beer without being shushed, none of which are much appreciated by the organizers of poetry readings nor by those members of the audience who want to hear poems read by their friends in tiny voices over shitty sound systems. But you know, we keep playing when we're being completely ignored, and we know it's our fault if we're being completely ignored and we damn well better fix it, and so does the venue, which won't have us back if we can't make the crowd happy and generate revenue for the club and tips for the staff. We have to entertain. The same goes for comedians and other spoken word entertainers of various stripes, and symphony orchestras, and pro wrestlers, and opera companies, and movies, and live theater, and the circus. It's not the same audience for all of those things, but every audience wants first to be entertained. Why shouldn't poets also feel it's their responsibility to entertain? That doesn't mean every poem should produce a gasp or a guffaw, but /some/ of them should. It might even help keep the audience's attention focused long enough to appreciate that quiet philosophical piece. It might even help fill the tip jar. Has for me a few times recently. I certainly enjoy reading poetry which I don't think I personally could make work at a club, but I'm no longer interested in /making/ poems I can't sell to a listener, especially one who came to hear live poetry. Let her hear it! Make that sour-faced, loud-mouthed fellow pay close enough attention that the quiet piece doesn't get lost, and make all the other poets there wonder why you're the one people want to talk to after the reading. And if that's not what you want to do, fine. Just don't expect much of an audience next time, and pick poems to put in the mail instead. Or on the net. And that's fine, too. www.mikesnider.org On Oct 17, 2011, at 10:09, Patricia F Anderson wrote: > Just a quick reply to this thread on poetry as a "small audience" topic. > > * Personal Context: > > In the past few decades, I've never had the freedom to attend lots of > poetry readings, or any other evening events. Single mom, special > needs kid, no car, my own issues. I was more likely to attend them in > Chicago, where public transit functioned more reliably throughout the > evenings. Where I live now (Ann Arbor, University of Michigan), I know > very well that there are poetry readings, but I have been unable to > discover how to find out when and where they are during the past > fifteen years. There must be some email list to subscribe to > somewhere, but I've had no luck finding it. It is evidently an > in-crowd phenomena here, and I am not part of the in-crowd for poetry > here. > > Thus, most of my poetry activities in recent years have been online. > Blogs, social networks, collaborative poetry, Second Life poetry > readings (performances) as well as open mics and reading groups > (analysis). These are things I can do at home, with the kid, on my > own, which do not require transit, or a completely healthy body. I > find it rather ironic that as we praise the poetry of disability, we > disparage poetry for a lack of engagement with a performance format > that requires mobility and ability (or extensive resources and > support). > > * Contemporary Social Context: > > Culture these days is long-tail culture, niche culture, and that is a > GOOD THING. I look forward to the death of the best sellers. The idea > of 'audience' is shifting in all areas of art and culture. I love > watching poetry leaving the cubby in a corner and embracing social > media, mashup/mixup culture, new media, collaborative creation, > creating new social environments for the enjoyment and sharing of > poetry. I worry about my poet friends who are reluctant to explore > these because they are afraid it will impact their ability to sell > books or get tenure. Those are old school markers of success. What > will be the measure of success in the future? Are they external or > internal markers of satisfaction? For myself, I have a vastly richer > audience of readers and dialog with them through social media than I > ever did through formal readings or publications. The main thing > restricting my audience now is my lack of time! I have more audience > than I can keep up with, and I don't take good enough care of my > relationship with my online readers. I should do more, but have the > same challenges with my poetry community as I do with my day job > online communities. I need more hours in the day. ;) > > My two cents, > > Patricia > > On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 10:17 PM, Millicent Borges Accardi > wrote: >> Finnegan, >> >> I think perhaps there are more "writers" and fewer "readers." >> >> The same is true for other areas of the arts and society as well. Look at >> the number of "reality" shows and You Tube sensations versus traditional >> shows written by teams of writers. I can remember not that long ago >> attending book signings and readings where the audience was filled with >> readers and students and admiring faculty or peers. Folks lined up after, >> clutching books in sweaty palms to get an autograph. >> >> These days the readings I attend are filled with those reading and those >> hoping for their 3 minutes of open microphone. It's rare to find an "actual" >> audience. Everyone seems to have an agenda and to be promoting a book. > > -- > Patricia Anderson / SL: Perplexity Peccable > pfa at umich.edu OR patriciafanderson at gmail.com > Emerging Technologies Librarian, Health Sciences Libraries, University > of Michigan, 1135 East Catherine, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 > "Google can give you 1,000 answers to your question. A librarian will > give you the right one." Anonymous. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From junction at earthlink.net Mon Oct 17 14:20:11 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 14:20:11 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience Message-ID: <28394171.1318875611868.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Let me extend this a bit. There's music that one can socialize to (or whatever) and then there's music in the concert hall. I've been to some terrible performances of music I love, but I don't get to vote with my feet till the intermission. And I've been to performances of new music that may have been great but I don't know how to listen to or may have been awful. I've also been to concerts of music that I didn't know how to listen to but for various reasons kept trying and learned how to listen to--music I now cherish. Rather like going back to Stevens till you get it. Not all entertainment is of the same kind, there are different kinds of audiences, and different venues demand different behaviors. Otherwise one would have to argue that much of the best art should never be performed. The same goes for other art forms in ways that are specific to each. I've been to a ton of bad art shows, but I've yet to see a couple make out because they were bored. Ditto theater. In all of these cases (poetry readings included) there are other factors at work. A concert, a play, an opening, a reading, may also function as social events. When someone I've known a long time or consider a friend really bombs I'm trapped anyway, no matter how informal a venue. But bottom line, most new work in any medium sucks. One has the option of refusing to discover anything or one grins and bears it in the hope of reward. Best, Mark -----Original Message----- >From: Michael Snider >Sent: Oct 17, 2011 1:28 PM >To: NewPoetry List >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience > >Patricia, > >All good points, and I'm very interested in the Second Life readings - are they text or sound, or maybe both? > >The rest of this isn't directed at you, Patricia, or even in response to you or anyone in particular on the list. But by god I've been to a lot of terrible poetry readings. > >The physical constraints for in-the-flesh poetry readings are much the same as those for in-the-flesh independent music, and maybe a little less stringent since for the latter there has to be room and support for equipment. I play mandolin in a fairly large band (from 7 to 10 members, depending on the venue and other circumstances), doing almost entirely original music (6 covers on a playlist of more than 80 songs), some of them poems of mine set by our bandleader, and we actually make a little money - no one's quitting their day job, but we've got the money now to do some recording with no one out-of-pocket. We play restaurants, clubs, museums, festivals, and parties, usually 2 or 3 gigs a month - though 2 weekends ago it was 3 in 2 days, 9 hours of music in 27 hours. I think I'm a much better poet than I am mandolinist, and until very recently I'd made maybe $150 over 30 years of writing and (a little) publishing, and, unless I'm at a major university or a big conference l i > ke West Chester (which doesn't pay /me/ anyway) the crowds for Fractal Folk in Solomon's Island, MD are at least an order of magnitude greater than the crowds for readings even of well-known poets. I only just began to understand what's going on. > >People can talk while we play, or make out if it's dark enough or they're drunk enough, or dance, and they come and go as they please, and order beer without being shushed, none of which are much appreciated by the organizers of poetry readings nor by those members of the audience who want to hear poems read by their friends in tiny voices over shitty sound systems. But you know, we keep playing when we're being completely ignored, and we know it's our fault if we're being completely ignored and we damn well better fix it, and so does the venue, which won't have us back if we can't make the crowd happy and generate revenue for the club and tips for the staff. We have to entertain. The same goes for comedians and other spoken word entertainers of various stripes, and symphony orchestras, and pro wrestlers, and opera companies, and movies, and live theater, and the circus. It's not the same audience for all of those things, but every audience wants first to be entertained. Why > shouldn't poets also feel it's their responsibility to entertain? That doesn't mean every poem should produce a gasp or a guffaw, but /some/ of them should. It might even help keep the audience's attention focused long enough to appreciate that quiet philosophical piece. It might even help fill the tip jar. Has for me a few times recently. > >I certainly enjoy reading poetry which I don't think I personally could make work at a club, but I'm no longer interested in /making/ poems I can't sell to a listener, especially one who came to hear live poetry. Let her hear it! Make that sour-faced, loud-mouthed fellow pay close enough attention that the quiet piece doesn't get lost, and make all the other poets there wonder why you're the one people want to talk to after the reading. And if that's not what you want to do, fine. Just don't expect much of an audience next time, and pick poems to put in the mail instead. Or on the net. And that's fine, too. > > >www.mikesnider.org > >On Oct 17, 2011, at 10:09, Patricia F Anderson wrote: > >> Just a quick reply to this thread on poetry as a "small audience" topic. >> >> * Personal Context: >> >> In the past few decades, I've never had the freedom to attend lots of >> poetry readings, or any other evening events. Single mom, special >> needs kid, no car, my own issues. I was more likely to attend them in >> Chicago, where public transit functioned more reliably throughout the >> evenings. Where I live now (Ann Arbor, University of Michigan), I know >> very well that there are poetry readings, but I have been unable to >> discover how to find out when and where they are during the past >> fifteen years. There must be some email list to subscribe to >> somewhere, but I've had no luck finding it. It is evidently an >> in-crowd phenomena here, and I am not part of the in-crowd for poetry >> here. >> >> Thus, most of my poetry activities in recent years have been online. >> Blogs, social networks, collaborative poetry, Second Life poetry >> readings (performances) as well as open mics and reading groups >> (analysis). These are things I can do at home, with the kid, on my >> own, which do not require transit, or a completely healthy body. I >> find it rather ironic that as we praise the poetry of disability, we >> disparage poetry for a lack of engagement with a performance format >> that requires mobility and ability (or extensive resources and >> support). >> >> * Contemporary Social Context: >> >> Culture these days is long-tail culture, niche culture, and that is a >> GOOD THING. I look forward to the death of the best sellers. The idea >> of 'audience' is shifting in all areas of art and culture. I love >> watching poetry leaving the cubby in a corner and embracing social >> media, mashup/mixup culture, new media, collaborative creation, >> creating new social environments for the enjoyment and sharing of >> poetry. I worry about my poet friends who are reluctant to explore >> these because they are afraid it will impact their ability to sell >> books or get tenure. Those are old school markers of success. What >> will be the measure of success in the future? Are they external or >> internal markers of satisfaction? For myself, I have a vastly richer >> audience of readers and dialog with them through social media than I >> ever did through formal readings or publications. The main thing >> restricting my audience now is my lack of time! I have more audience >> than I can keep up with, and I don't take good enough care of my >> relationship with my online readers. I should do more, but have the >> same challenges with my poetry community as I do with my day job >> online communities. I need more hours in the day. ;) >> >> My two cents, >> >> Patricia >> >> On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 10:17 PM, Millicent Borges Accardi >> wrote: >>> Finnegan, >>> >>> I think perhaps there are more "writers" and fewer "readers." >>> >>> The same is true for other areas of the arts and society as well. Look at >>> the number of "reality" shows and You Tube sensations versus traditional >>> shows written by teams of writers. I can remember not that long ago >>> attending book signings and readings where the audience was filled with >>> readers and students and admiring faculty or peers. Folks lined up after, >>> clutching books in sweaty palms to get an autograph. >>> >>> These days the readings I attend are filled with those reading and those >>> hoping for their 3 minutes of open microphone. It's rare to find an "actual" >>> audience. Everyone seems to have an agenda and to be promoting a book. >> >> -- >> Patricia Anderson / SL: Perplexity Peccable >> pfa at umich.edu OR patriciafanderson at gmail.com >> Emerging Technologies Librarian, Health Sciences Libraries, University >> of Michigan, 1135 East Catherine, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 >> "Google can give you 1,000 answers to your question. A librarian will >> give you the right one." Anonymous. >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Mon Oct 17 14:55:12 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 11:55:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1318877712.10490.YahooMailClassic@web161912.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> " ...Culture these days is long-tail culture, niche culture, and that is a GOOD THING ... ? ?... not sure if I agree, but intruiging. --- On Mon, 10/17/11, Patricia F Anderson wrote: From: Patricia F Anderson Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience To: "NewPoetry List" , patriciafanderson at gmail.com Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 10:09 AM Just a quick reply to this thread on poetry as a "small audience" topic. * Personal Context: In the past few decades, I've never had the freedom to attend lots of poetry readings, or any other evening events. Single mom, special needs kid, no car, my own issues. I was more likely to attend them in Chicago, where public transit functioned more reliably throughout the evenings. Where I live now (Ann Arbor, University of Michigan), I know very well that there are poetry readings, but I have been unable to discover how to find out when and where they are during the past fifteen years. There must be some email list to subscribe to somewhere, but I've had no luck finding it. It is evidently an in-crowd phenomena here, and I am not part of the in-crowd for poetry here. Thus, most of my poetry activities in recent years have been online. Blogs, social networks, collaborative poetry, Second Life poetry readings (performances) as well as open mics and reading groups (analysis). These are things I can do at home, with the kid, on my own, which do not require transit, or a completely healthy body. I find it rather ironic that as we praise the poetry of disability, we disparage poetry for a lack of engagement with a performance format that requires mobility and ability (or extensive resources and support). * Contemporary Social Context: Culture these days is long-tail culture, niche culture, and that is a GOOD THING. I look forward to the death of the best sellers. The idea of 'audience' is shifting in all areas of art and culture. I love watching? poetry leaving the cubby in a corner and embracing social media, mashup/mixup culture, new media, collaborative creation, creating new social environments for the enjoyment and sharing of poetry. I worry about my poet friends who are reluctant to explore these because they are afraid it will impact their ability to sell books or get tenure. Those are old school markers of success. What will be the measure of success in the future? Are they external or internal markers of satisfaction? For myself, I have a vastly richer audience of readers and dialog with them through social media than I ever did through formal readings or publications. The main thing restricting my audience now is my lack of time! I have more audience than I can keep up with, and I don't take good enough care of my relationship with my online readers. I should do more, but have the same challenges with my poetry community as I do with my day job online communities. I need more hours in the day. ;) My two cents, Patricia On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 10:17 PM, Millicent Borges Accardi wrote: > Finnegan, > > I think perhaps there are more "writers" and fewer "readers." > > The same is true for other areas of the arts and society as well. Look at > the number of "reality" shows and You Tube sensations versus traditional > shows written by teams of writers. I can remember not that long ago > attending book signings and readings where the audience was filled with > readers and students and admiring faculty or peers. Folks lined up after, > clutching books in sweaty palms to get an autograph. > > These days the readings I attend are filled with those reading?and those > hoping for their 3 minutes of open microphone. It's rare to find an "actual" > audience. Everyone seems to have an agenda and to be promoting a book. -- Patricia Anderson / SL: Perplexity Peccable pfa at umich.edu OR patriciafanderson at gmail.com Emerging Technologies Librarian, Health Sciences Libraries, University of Michigan, 1135 East Catherine, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 "Google can give you 1,000 answers to your question. A librarian will give you the right one." Anonymous. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Mon Oct 17 15:04:25 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 12:04:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems about the Blues: Cornelius Eady In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1318878265.14919.YahooMailClassic@web161908.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I had the good fortune of being awarded a Jenny Moore fellowship from George Washington University. Free workshop. Cornelius Eady was the instructor. His one?reason for becoming a poet was funny, honest, though not exactly inspirational. Eady simply decided that he didn't want to work as hard as his Dad. ? Enjoyed the Muddy Waters poem. Typical Eady blues ... fun/disturbing. --- On Sun, 10/16/11, David Graham wrote: From: David Graham Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems about the Blues: Cornelius Eady To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Sunday, October 16, 2011, 5:17 PM One more from the Kevin Young anthology-- Muddy Waters & the Chicago Blues ? Good news from the windy city: Thomas Edison's Time on the planet has been validated. The guitars And harps begin their slow transition Of the street, an SOS of what you need And what you have. The way this life Tries to roar you down, you have to fight ? Fire with fire: the amplified power Of a hip rotating in an upstairs flat Vs. the old indignities; the static Heat of nothing, nowhere, ? No how against this conversation Of fingers and tongues, this Rent party above the Slaughter-house. ? --Cornelius Eady. Blues Poems.? Ed. Kevin Young.? Knopf (Everyman's Library Pocket Poets), 2003. ? ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patriciafanderson at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 15:06:22 2011 From: patriciafanderson at gmail.com (Patricia F Anderson) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:06:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience In-Reply-To: References: <8CE55C5F6DAB8FE-23A4-86460@Webmail-m115.sysops.aol.com> <8CE55D31DAF298E-1288-9AD67@webmail-m166.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Hi, Mike, thanks for the question! Briefly (again), there are a number of groups that sponsor weekly poetry readings in Second Life as a routine matter, in addition to larger special-theme or hosted events by larger groups such as a library or associated with a holiday or book launching party or something like that. For the routine groups that I am aware of, I have seen weekly reading groups that do the following. 1. Generic open mic (usually text only) 2. Themed challenges, with theme announced in advance (either text or voice depending on the group) 3. Poetry improv challenges (with the master specializing in improv RHYMED iambic pentameter, for pity's sake) (usually text) 4. Erotic poetry either found and read (with citation given), or written by the reader. (usually voice) These take place in venues ranging from a clearing in a forest, around a campfire, in a coffee shop, or in a theater. Of course, they could happen anywhere, I'm just describing what I've seen. As is typical in real life open mics, the quality ranges from the trite to the sublime. - Patricia On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 1:28 PM, Michael Snider wrote: > Patricia, > > All good points, and I'm very interested in the Second Life readings - are they text or sound, or maybe both? > -- Patricia Anderson / SL: Perplexity Peccable pfa at umich.edu OR patriciafanderson at gmail.com Emerging Technologies Librarian, Health Sciences Libraries, University of Michigan, 1135 East Catherine, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 "Google can give you 1,000 answers to your question. A librarian will give you the right one." Anonymous. From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Mon Oct 17 15:21:34 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 12:21:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] "Best" In-Reply-To: <71F34092-2A49-4C21-A089-2722B4D4486A@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <1318879294.10516.YahooMailClassic@web161915.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Rory Gallagher, another great inside the (Washington) Beltway picker. & suicide. Him,?plus Danny Gatten ... lots of bi-polar in these parts ... depression ... talent ... ? ..." & there leans a twelve string wizard, looming three stories high ... ? Great closing line. Reminds me of Yeats. Why Yeats??... don't know why? --- On Sun, 10/16/11, David Graham wrote: From: David Graham Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "Best" To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Sunday, October 16, 2011, 11:27 AM On Oct 16, 2011, at 2:22 AM, Jerry McGuire wrote: to find a grizzled, fat Rory Gallagher playing solo electric. . . .? ========================= Jerry, Well, we're having fun, anyway! ?Liked your poem. ?Here's another of mine, this time an older one, that old Rory Gallagher put me in mind of. ?The 12-string wizard mentioned here was Roger McGuinn, as I recall, in some Rolling Stone feature way back when.? Whatya think, shall we let others play this game? Photos Of Old Rock Stars Backlit, cadaverous, glaring like coins, they wear themselves no less than their gold jackets. Still the gaudy rings, pegged leather pants, cigarettes' pluming between famous fingers. A few sport pumped-up post-psychedelic bodies, though, to go with their graying beards and the fret lines around their eyes.? Women can be forgiven if they choose soft focus or long shot, given the audience, but those who don't often look great:? travelled, weary, and satisfied, amen.? Best shot, though, is of a Hollywood backdrop--skyscrapers of some generic gotham.? And there leans? a twelve-string wizard, looming three stories high. --David Graham. ?Egg (Spring 1997). ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== to find a grizzled, fat Rory Gallagher playing solo electric; and all? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patriciafanderson at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 15:27:35 2011 From: patriciafanderson at gmail.com (Patricia F Anderson) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:27:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience In-Reply-To: <1318877712.10490.YahooMailClassic@web161912.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1318877712.10490.YahooMailClassic@web161912.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ah, well, good to question it, and it does reveal my bias. Lawrence Lessig had a great video a few years ago, which I can't find right now, that described what I mean. Basically, his idea was that historically people made their own music at home, on porches and in living rooms, in city parks and schools. Then publishers and copyright and formal media intervened, and we found that the typical person LISTENED to music, but no longer performed or created their own. His argument is that the remix/mashup culture has restored the balance of fostering personal creativity and sharing of creative works. Short video (~15min): Book: So, speaking purely for myself, I would rather see enormous quantities of poetry being written and shared and commented on all over the world, as part of a daily culture in which it is embedded as part of communication for everyone, rather than see poetry as the sole province of a restricted elite. Yes, I want to see and appreciate good poetry ? challenging poetry, creative poetry, innovative poetry, insightful poetry ? but I believe that a culture which appreciates all poetry (even if it is "bad poetry") is more likely to generate that renaissance. One of the most exciting poetry events I attended in Second Life was a duel. Two leading poetic voices in a roleplay community (set in Victorian England) challenged each other to a poetry duel, and did something very like the old Japanese renga competitions, but with only two. The audience cheered for the better performances at each turn, and donated funds to the preferred charity for the speaker they supported. How exciting! For myself, I am not a slam poet, and I often find poetry slams a little over dramatized, delivery rather unsubtle, however they engage a new audience and new readers with poetry. How could that be a bad thing? - Patricia On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 2:55 PM, stephen russell < poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: > " ...Culture these days is long-tail culture, niche culture, and that is a > GOOD THING ... > > ... not sure if I agree, but intruiging. > > --- On *Mon, 10/17/11, Patricia F Anderson *wrote: > > > From: Patricia F Anderson > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small > audience > To: "NewPoetry List" , > patriciafanderson at gmail.com > Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 10:09 AM > [snip] > * Contemporary Social Context: > > Culture these days is long-tail culture, niche culture, and that is a > GOOD THING. I look forward to the death of the best sellers. The idea > of 'audience' is shifting in all areas of art and culture. I love > watching poetry leaving the cubby in a corner and embracing social > media, mashup/mixup culture, new media, collaborative creation, > creating new social environments for the enjoyment and sharing of > poetry. [snip] > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Patricia Anderson / SL: Perplexity Peccable pfa at umich.edu OR patriciafanderson at gmail.com Emerging Technologies Librarian, Health Sciences Libraries, University of Michigan, 1135 East Catherine, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 "Google can give you 1,000 answers to your question. A librarian will give you the right one." Anonymous. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Mon Oct 17 15:51:40 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 12:51:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] "Best" In-Reply-To: <4E9AFB40.50900@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <1318881100.20508.YahooMailClassic@web161906.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Les Paul invited Keith Richards to sit in with his band. Keith, to his credit, attempted a lead. Didn't work. Richards serves the same purpose as the Edge ... good sound, though I give the Edge the, well, ?edge 'cause his effects are more original. ? Les Paul/Chet Atkins ... almost 2 much talent?for a single album. ? --- On Sun, 10/16/11, Jerry McGuire wrote: From: Jerry McGuire Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "Best" To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Sunday, October 16, 2011, 11:41 AM Nothing pleases me more than when others do my work. And where's BG to tell us that we've excluded visual guitarists? (But I _didn't,_ Bob! I'm all about shredding air and whipping hair.) And how come no woman has come forward to say that Mary Ford did everything Les Paul did, but backwards and in heels?) Jerry On 10/16/2011 10:27 AM, David Graham wrote: Whatya think, shall we let others play this game? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 16:08:52 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 22:08:52 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. In-Reply-To: References: <00e101cc89b9$9ce1f1b0$d6a5d510$@ilstu.edu> <1318529820.4433.YahooMailNeo@web120524.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I am also a reader, and for the same press Skip Fox reads, and if Skip is behind, I am behind-behind-behind. I have been carrying in my bag all around the place over the weekend three manuscripts hoping in delays that would give me the possibility of ...reading! On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 8:45 PM, Skip Fox wrote: > Yes, of course. Not enough time for 200, but my job is more like 35-40 per > year. > > I _have_ heard the horrendous amount of reading that readers for the > National Book Award must do. I knew someone who read perhaps over 100 novels > (maybe 200) in a single summer. I cannot imagine doing so, but deeply > respect someone who does. > > Christian Bok was a reader for a top Canadian prize and spoke of a similar > feat in a short period of time but had to read books in multiple genres > (such was the nature of the affair). Bok was very proud of the fact he read > each and every ms. > > On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 1:17 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: > >> I never liked poetry books with a forced theme, and that's all I hear >> these days when the topic comes up, "First, you should find a theme." Bah! >> I'm more in line with Larkin's statement about ordering poems in a book: "I >> treat them like a music hall bill: you know, contrast, difference in length, >> the comic, the Irish tenor, bring on the girls." >> >> JohnJ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 17:39:55 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 14:39:55 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. In-Reply-To: References: <00e101cc89b9$9ce1f1b0$d6a5d510$@ilstu.edu> <1318529820.4433.YahooMailNeo@web120524.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: *for the same press Skip Fox reads* So now we all write the greeting to the intro letter as *Dear Skip & Anny* . . . - Jim On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 1:08 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > I am also a reader, and for the same press Skip Fox reads, and if Skip is > behind, I am behind-behind-behind. I have been carrying in my bag all around > the place over the weekend three manuscripts hoping in delays that would > give me the possibility of ...reading! > > On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 8:45 PM, Skip Fox wrote: > >> Yes, of course. Not enough time for 200, but my job is more like 35-40 per >> year. >> >> I _have_ heard the horrendous amount of reading that readers for the >> National Book Award must do. I knew someone who read perhaps over 100 novels >> (maybe 200) in a single summer. I cannot imagine doing so, but deeply >> respect someone who does. >> >> Christian Bok was a reader for a top Canadian prize and spoke of a similar >> feat in a short period of time but had to read books in multiple genres >> (such was the nature of the affair). Bok was very proud of the fact he read >> each and every ms. >> >> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 1:17 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: >> >>> I never liked poetry books with a forced theme, and that's all I hear >>> these days when the topic comes up, "First, you should find a theme." Bah! >>> I'm more in line with Larkin's statement about ordering poems in a book: "I >>> treat them like a music hall bill: you know, contrast, difference in length, >>> the comic, the Irish tenor, bring on the girls." >>> >>> JohnJ >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Mon Oct 17 17:50:17 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 16:50:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. In-Reply-To: References: <00e101cc89b9$9ce1f1b0$d6a5d510$@ilstu.edu> <1318529820.4433.YahooMailNeo@web120524.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E9CA319.2010500@louisiana.edu> I protest! It's got to be "Dear Anny and Skippy." Dr. Fox is ever the gentleman, yet resists resting on mere formality. Jerry On 10/17/2011 4:39 PM, James Cervantes wrote: > /for the same press Skip Fox reads/ > > So now we all write the greeting to the intro letter as /Dear Skip & > Anny/ . . . > > - Jim > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 1:08 PM, Anny Ballardini > > wrote: > > I am also a reader, and for the same press Skip Fox reads, and if > Skip is behind, I am behind-behind-behind. I have been carrying in > my bag all around the place over the weekend three manuscripts > hoping in delays that would give me the possibility of ...reading! > > On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 8:45 PM, Skip Fox > wrote: > > Yes, of course. Not enough time for 200, but my job is more > like 35-40 per year. > I _have_ heard the horrendous amount of reading that readers > for the National Book Award must do. I knew someone who read > perhaps over 100 novels (maybe 200) in a single summer. I > cannot imagine doing so, but deeply respect someone who does. > Christian Bok was a reader for a top Canadian prize and spoke > of a similar feat in a short period of time but had to read > books in multiple genres (such was the nature of the affair). > Bok was very proud of the fact he read each and every ms. > > On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 1:17 PM, John Jeffrey > > wrote: > > I never liked poetry books with a forced theme, and that's > all I hear these days when the topic comes up, "First, you > should find a theme." Bah! I'm more in line with > Larkin's statement about ordering poems in a book: "I > treat them like a music hall bill: you know, contrast, > difference in length, the comic, the Irish tenor, bring on > the girls." > > JohnJ > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a > dancing star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > > Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com > / > > The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > > https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home > > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning > > http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Mon Oct 17 18:05:07 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 15:05:07 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. In-Reply-To: <4E9CA319.2010500@louisiana.edu> References: <00e101cc89b9$9ce1f1b0$d6a5d510$@ilstu.edu> <1318529820.4433.YahooMailNeo@web120524.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4E9CA319.2010500@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: 10:4 Revising cover letters accordingly. - Jim On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 2:50 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: > I protest! It's got to be "Dear Anny and Skippy." Dr. Fox is ever the > gentleman, yet resists resting on mere formality. > > Jerry > > On 10/17/2011 4:39 PM, James Cervantes wrote: > > *for the same press Skip Fox reads* > > So now we all write the greeting to the intro letter as *Dear Skip & Anny > * . . . > > - Jim > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 1:08 PM, Anny Ballardini < > anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote: > >> I am also a reader, and for the same press Skip Fox reads, and if Skip is >> behind, I am behind-behind-behind. I have been carrying in my bag all around >> the place over the weekend three manuscripts hoping in delays that would >> give me the possibility of ...reading! >> >> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 8:45 PM, Skip Fox wrote: >> >>> Yes, of course. Not enough time for 200, but my job is more like 35-40 >>> per year. >>> >>> I _have_ heard the horrendous amount of reading that readers for the >>> National Book Award must do. I knew someone who read perhaps over 100 novels >>> (maybe 200) in a single summer. I cannot imagine doing so, but deeply >>> respect someone who does. >>> >>> Christian Bok was a reader for a top Canadian prize and spoke of a >>> similar feat in a short period of time but had to read books in multiple >>> genres (such was the nature of the affair). Bok was very proud of the fact >>> he read each and every ms. >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 1:17 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: >>> >>>> I never liked poetry books with a forced theme, and that's all I hear >>>> these days when the topic comes up, "First, you should find a theme." Bah! >>>> I'm more in line with Larkin's statement about ordering poems in a book: "I >>>> treat them like a music hall bill: you know, contrast, difference in length, >>>> the comic, the Irish tenor, bring on the girls." >>>> >>>> JohnJ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Anny Ballardini >> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >> star! >> Friedrich Nietzsche >> >> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >> Giovenale >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > > Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ > > The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > > https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home > > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning > > http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu Mon Oct 17 22:54:30 2011 From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan) Date: Mon, 17 Oct 2011 21:54:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Call for Poem for The Hardy Review Message-ID: <005c01cc8d41$427c6120$c7752360$@ilstu.edu> Dear NewPoetry, Hardy-l, and ttha-potm list members- The Hardy Review, a twice-yearly print publication for Thomas Hardy scholars and enthusiasts, published by the Thomas Hardy Association, welcomes submissions of high-quality, original poems that may take Hardy as their subject, that may reference him or his work, that may recall something about him in their theme or technique, that may show his influence in subtle or direct ways, or that might interest an audience of Hardy readers for some other reason we haven't yet imagined. In other words, there is no need for an explicit Hardy connection, though that is welcome too. Readers of the Review are a smart and aesthetically sophisticated group. Surprise us! The Review is just now entering upon its 12th year. It is edited by Professor Rosemarie Morgan of St. Andrews University and published in an attractive, slick-paper format by Maney Publishing. See a cover image and a sample table of contents at the Thomas Hardy Association's main page: http://www.yale.edu/hardysoc/Welcome/welcomet.htm In recent issues, the Review has featured poems by Robert Mezey, Jannett Highfill, Jim Goar, Judith Valente, Michael Morical, Patricia Brody, Barry Goldensohn, Carrie Etter, Charles Reynard, Gerald Schwartz, Michael Cain, and Kathleen Kirk. Poets forthcoming include Jim Togeas and Robert Bensen. Postal submissions, including a brief cover letter, brief bio, and SASE should be sent to: Bill Morgan 603 N. School Street Normal, IL 61761 Electronic submissions (with all their attendant formatting perils) may be sent to wwmorgan at ilstu.edu Cheers, Bill Morgan Poetry Editor, The Hardy Review -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 00:01:04 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 06:01:04 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. In-Reply-To: References: <00e101cc89b9$9ce1f1b0$d6a5d510$@ilstu.edu> <1318529820.4433.YahooMailNeo@web120524.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4E9CA319.2010500@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: :-) On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 12:05 AM, James Cervantes wrote: > 10:4 Revising cover letters accordingly. > > - Jim > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 2:50 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: > >> I protest! It's got to be "Dear Anny and Skippy." Dr. Fox is ever the >> gentleman, yet resists resting on mere formality. >> >> Jerry >> >> On 10/17/2011 4:39 PM, James Cervantes wrote: >> >> *for the same press Skip Fox reads* >> >> So now we all write the greeting to the intro letter as *Dear Skip & >> Anny* . . . >> >> - Jim >> >> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 1:08 PM, Anny Ballardini < >> anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> I am also a reader, and for the same press Skip Fox reads, and if Skip is >>> behind, I am behind-behind-behind. I have been carrying in my bag all around >>> the place over the weekend three manuscripts hoping in delays that would >>> give me the possibility of ...reading! >>> >>> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 8:45 PM, Skip Fox wrote: >>> >>>> Yes, of course. Not enough time for 200, but my job is more like 35-40 >>>> per year. >>>> >>>> I _have_ heard the horrendous amount of reading that readers for the >>>> National Book Award must do. I knew someone who read perhaps over 100 novels >>>> (maybe 200) in a single summer. I cannot imagine doing so, but deeply >>>> respect someone who does. >>>> >>>> Christian Bok was a reader for a top Canadian prize and spoke of a >>>> similar feat in a short period of time but had to read books in multiple >>>> genres (such was the nature of the affair). Bok was very proud of the fact >>>> he read each and every ms. >>>> >>>> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 1:17 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: >>>> >>>>> I never liked poetry books with a forced theme, and that's all I >>>>> hear these days when the topic comes up, "First, you should find a theme." >>>>> Bah! I'm more in line with Larkin's statement about ordering poems in a >>>>> book: "I treat them like a music hall bill: you know, contrast, difference >>>>> in length, the comic, the Irish tenor, bring on the girls." >>>>> >>>>> JohnJ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Anny Ballardini >>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >>> star! >>> Friedrich Nietzsche >>> >>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >>> Giovenale >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ >> >> The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org >> >> https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home >> >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning >> >> http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf >> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > > Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ > > The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > > https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home > > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning > > http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gejs1 at rochester.rr.com Tue Oct 18 07:07:29 2011 From: gejs1 at rochester.rr.com (gejs1 at rochester.rr.com) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 7:07:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rick Petrie Book Release In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20111018110729.509FE.189451.root@hrndva-web27-z02> Rick Petrie's new collection of poems, BEFORE JAZZ... all the following events in Rochester, New york... -Featured performer at Pure Kona Poetry, Thursday October 20th @Flying Squirrel Community Ctr. @8pm, Corner of Clarissa & Troup streets in Corn Hill. -Book release party at Abilene, Saturday October 22nd, 6-8PM, in the second floor lounge. -Featured Reader at Writers & Books Wide Open Mic, Friday Nov. 4th @7pm, 740 University Avenue. -performing with John Roche and so many others at the Bug Jar Saturday November 5th, 5-9pm. have a pleasant evening ...bringing the reed to your lips joe preferred ballads in his last years ass shaking, brain teasing & heart stomping given over to melancholy dissolved fine wine become joe henderson is night air From carol.dorf at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 09:33:02 2011 From: carol.dorf at gmail.com (carol dorf) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 06:33:02 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Best" [Or, Poems about the Blues] In-Reply-To: <4E9B2AC1.6010204@louisiana.edu> References: <4E9B2AC1.6010204@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: Not in a Jazz form, but references that world -- "Los Angeles, 1954" by David St. John. Al Young comes out of the Jazz tradition, and the poem Up Jumped Spring references jazz, and the version on his web site has related music. Carol talkingwriting.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fox.skip at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 10:01:30 2011 From: fox.skip at gmail.com (Skip Fox) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 09:01:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. In-Reply-To: References: <00e101cc89b9$9ce1f1b0$d6a5d510$@ilstu.edu> <1318529820.4433.YahooMailNeo@web120524.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4E9CA319.2010500@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: Of course. I always defer to Anny. Who wouldn't? On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 11:01 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > :-) > > > On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 12:05 AM, James Cervantes < > cervantes.james at gmail.com> wrote: > >> 10:4 Revising cover letters accordingly. >> >> - Jim >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 2:50 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: >> >>> I protest! It's got to be "Dear Anny and Skippy." Dr. Fox is ever the >>> gentleman, yet resists resting on mere formality. >>> >>> Jerry >>> >>> On 10/17/2011 4:39 PM, James Cervantes wrote: >>> >>> *for the same press Skip Fox reads* >>> >>> So now we all write the greeting to the intro letter as *Dear Skip & >>> Anny* . . . >>> >>> - Jim >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 1:08 PM, Anny Ballardini < >>> anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I am also a reader, and for the same press Skip Fox reads, and if Skip >>>> is behind, I am behind-behind-behind. I have been carrying in my bag all >>>> around the place over the weekend three manuscripts hoping in delays that >>>> would give me the possibility of ...reading! >>>> >>>> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 8:45 PM, Skip Fox wrote: >>>> >>>>> Yes, of course. Not enough time for 200, but my job is more like 35-40 >>>>> per year. >>>>> >>>>> I _have_ heard the horrendous amount of reading that readers for the >>>>> National Book Award must do. I knew someone who read perhaps over 100 novels >>>>> (maybe 200) in a single summer. I cannot imagine doing so, but deeply >>>>> respect someone who does. >>>>> >>>>> Christian Bok was a reader for a top Canadian prize and spoke of a >>>>> similar feat in a short period of time but had to read books in multiple >>>>> genres (such was the nature of the affair). Bok was very proud of the fact >>>>> he read each and every ms. >>>>> >>>>> On Thu, Oct 13, 2011 at 1:17 PM, John Jeffrey >>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I never liked poetry books with a forced theme, and that's all I >>>>>> hear these days when the topic comes up, "First, you should find a theme." >>>>>> Bah! I'm more in line with Larkin's statement about ordering poems in a >>>>>> book: "I treat them like a music hall bill: you know, contrast, difference >>>>>> in length, the comic, the Irish tenor, bring on the girls." >>>>>> >>>>>> JohnJ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Anny Ballardini >>>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >>>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >>>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >>>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >>>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >>>> star! >>>> Friedrich Nietzsche >>>> >>>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >>>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >>>> Giovenale >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ >>> >>> The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org >>> >>> https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home >>> >>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning >>> >>> http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf >>> >>> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> >> Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ >> >> The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org >> >> https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home >> >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning >> >> http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf >> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Oct 18 10:48:53 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 10:48:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. In-Reply-To: References: <00e101cc89b9$9ce1f1b0$d6a5d510$@ilstu.edu><1318529820.4433.YahooMailNeo@web120524.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><4E9CA319.2010500@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <1CD6C870650F40FFAC9CC0F8C78929C7@BobHP> From: Skip Fox Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 10:01 AM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. Of course. I always defer to Anny. Who wouldn't? MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE --Guess Who -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Oct 18 13:29:08 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 19:29:08 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. In-Reply-To: <1CD6C870650F40FFAC9CC0F8C78929C7@BobHP> References: <00e101cc89b9$9ce1f1b0$d6a5d510$@ilstu.edu> <1318529820.4433.YahooMailNeo@web120524.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <4E9CA319.2010500@louisiana.edu> <1CD6C870650F40FFAC9CC0F8C78929C7@BobHP> Message-ID: is that a millepede crawling/scrambling on my screen? Skip is a Gentleman, thank you. On Tue, Oct 18, 2011 at 4:48 PM, bob grumman wrote: > > > *From:* Skip Fox > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 18, 2011 10:01 AM > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. > > Of course. I always defer to Anny. Who wouldn't? > > MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE > > --Guess Who > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Tue Oct 18 15:36:40 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 18 Oct 2011 15:36:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Abramson's October reviews Message-ID: <8CE5BE4644E2A8C-1610-6E40F@webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/seth-abramson/best-american-poetry-book_b_985362.html Seth Abramson October 2011 Contemporary Poetry Reviews The aim of this ongoing review series is to highlight superlative books of poetry from the last 10 years. Each entry offers an unranked, non-exhaustive list of such collections comprised of brief descriptions of each text and an excerpt -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Wed Oct 19 10:21:47 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 07:21:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Sound poems In-Reply-To: <8CE5BE4644E2A8C-1610-6E40F@webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE5BE4644E2A8C-1610-6E40F@webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1319034107.91219.YahooMailNeo@web120526.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> For those of you who have professed to liking your poetry new, to push the boundaries, to pack up the house and move so far outside the city limits that Wilshberia is nothing but a faint glow on the horizon at night, take a look at this Youtube video entitled, "2 Steve Timm sound poems in Racine Wisconsin." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNSz6JG4tIw The second poem is the one that I found interesting.? (He starts to, um, "read" it at around :50.)? What struck me is that it's in a fairly conventional poetry reading setting (podium/mike/outside a library), which made it all the more incongruous.? The first poem is performed on the street.? In that environment it doesn't seem as odd.? I used to see guys making noises like that all the time in New York City.? Back before they cleaned up Times Square, that is. JohnJ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu Wed Oct 19 10:37:23 2011 From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 09:37:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sound poems In-Reply-To: <1319034107.91219.YahooMailNeo@web120526.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <8CE5BE4644E2A8C-1610-6E40F@webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com> <1319034107.91219.YahooMailNeo@web120526.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <003601cc8e6c$9dd38900$d97a9b00$@ilstu.edu> Whew! That's gotta hurt. My throat is sore just from listening. But, any sacrifice for art, right? Bill Morgan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNSz6JG4tIw -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cvoisine at nmsu.edu Wed Oct 19 12:56:07 2011 From: cvoisine at nmsu.edu (Connie Voisine) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 10:56:07 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sound poems In-Reply-To: <1319034107.91219.YahooMailNeo@web120526.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <8CE5BE4644E2A8C-1610-6E40F@webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com> <1319034107.91219.YahooMailNeo@web120526.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: i heard him read in chicago this summer--kurt schwitters is alive and well in wisconsin! his sound poems were a real highlight. ubu web has lots of sound poetry files--yoko ono coughing to toilets flushing to schwitters himself. i, whom no one would call avant garde but definitely open-minded, enjoy these experiements of sound. maybe going to all that performance art in nyc in the 80's was good training... connie On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 8:21 AM, John Jeffrey wrote: > For those of you who have professed to liking your poetry new, to push the > boundaries, to pack up the house and move so far outside the city limits > that Wilshberia is nothing but a faint glow on the horizon at night, take a > look at this Youtube video entitled, "2 Steve Timm sound poems in Racine > Wisconsin." > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNSz6JG4tIw > > The second poem is the one that I found interesting.? (He starts to, um, > "read" it at around :50.)? What struck me is that it's in a fairly > conventional poetry reading setting (podium/mike/outside a library), which > made it all the more incongruous.? The first poem is performed on the > street.? In that environment it doesn't seem as odd.? I used to see guys > making noises like that all the time in New York City.? Back before they > cleaned up Times Square, that is. > > > JohnJ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Connie Voisine Associate Professor of English New Mexico State University cvoisine at nmsu.edu 575-646-2027 From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Wed Oct 19 16:13:41 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 13:13:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] "Best" In-Reply-To: <1318879294.10516.YahooMailClassic@web161915.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1319055221.48850.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> No, I was think about Roy Buew ... cannon ... too much brain D 2 bother with spelling ... I not so sure about Rory Gallaher ... was he the guy who played on Hee Haw, the fun hillbilly show? If so, he also was an inside the Washington beltway guy. In fact, from D.C. --- On Mon, 10/17/11, stephen russell wrote: From: stephen russell Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "Best" To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 3:21 PM Rory Gallagher, another great inside the (Washington) Beltway picker. & suicide. Him,?plus Danny Gatten ... lots of bi-polar in these parts ... depression ... talent ... ? ..." & there leans a twelve string wizard, looming three stories high ... ? Great closing line. Reminds me of Yeats. Why Yeats??... don't know why? --- On Sun, 10/16/11, David Graham wrote: From: David Graham Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "Best" To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Sunday, October 16, 2011, 11:27 AM On Oct 16, 2011, at 2:22 AM, Jerry McGuire wrote: to find a grizzled, fat Rory Gallagher playing solo electric. . . .? ========================= Jerry, Well, we're having fun, anyway! ?Liked your poem. ?Here's another of mine, this time an older one, that old Rory Gallagher put me in mind of. ?The 12-string wizard mentioned here was Roger McGuinn, as I recall, in some Rolling Stone feature way back when.? Whatya think, shall we let others play this game? Photos Of Old Rock Stars Backlit, cadaverous, glaring like coins, they wear themselves no less than their gold jackets. Still the gaudy rings, pegged leather pants, cigarettes' pluming between famous fingers. A few sport pumped-up post-psychedelic bodies, though, to go with their graying beards and the fret lines around their eyes.? Women can be forgiven if they choose soft focus or long shot, given the audience, but those who don't often look great:? travelled, weary, and satisfied, amen.? Best shot, though, is of a Hollywood backdrop--skyscrapers of some generic gotham.? And there leans? a twelve-string wizard, looming three stories high. --David Graham. ?Egg (Spring 1997). ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== to find a grizzled, fat Rory Gallagher playing solo electric; and all? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From almaginnes at aol.com Wed Oct 19 16:20:11 2011 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 16:20:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] "Best" In-Reply-To: <1319055221.48850.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1319055221.48850.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CE5CB3A2E810DF-340-6F2C@webmail-m070.sysops.aol.com> Rory Gallagher was a blues rock player from Ireland. He died of complications following a liver transplant. -----Original Message----- From: stephen russell To: NewPoetry List Sent: Wed, Oct 19, 2011 4:16 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "Best" No, I was think about Roy Buew ... cannon ... too much brain D 2 bother with spelling ... I not so sure about Rory Gallaher ... was he the guy who played on Hee Haw, the fun hillbilly show? If so, he also was an inside the Washington beltway guy. In fact, from D.C. --- On Mon, 10/17/11, stephen russell wrote: From: stephen russell Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "Best" To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 3:21 PM Rory Gallagher, another great inside the (Washington) Beltway picker. & suicide. Him, plus Danny Gatten ... lots of bi-polar in these parts ... depression ... talent ... ..." & there leans a twelve string wizard, looming three stories high ... Great closing line. Reminds me of Yeats. Why Yeats? ... don't know why? --- On Sun, 10/16/11, David Graham wrote: From: David Graham Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "Best" To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Sunday, October 16, 2011, 11:27 AM On Oct 16, 2011, at 2:22 AM, Jerry McGuire wrote: to find a grizzled, fat Rory Gallagher playing solo electric. . . . ========================= Jerry, Well, we're having fun, anyway! Liked your poem. Here's another of mine, this time an older one, that old Rory Gallagher put me in mind of. The 12-string wizard mentioned here was Roger McGuinn, as I recall, in some Rolling Stone feature way back when. Whatya think, shall we let others play this game? Photos Of Old Rock Stars Backlit, cadaverous, glaring like coins, they wear themselves no less than their gold jackets. Still the gaudy rings, pegged leather pants, cigarettes' pluming between famous fingers. A few sport pumped-up post-psychedelic bodies, though, to go with their graying beards and the fret lines around their eyes. Women can be forgiven if they choose soft focus or long shot, given the audience, but those who don't often look great: travelled, weary, and satisfied, amen. Best shot, though, is of a Hollywood backdrop--skyscrapers of some generic gotham. And there leans a twelve-string wizard, looming three stories high. --David Graham. Egg (Spring 1997). ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== to find a grizzled, fat Rory Gallagher playing solo electric; and all -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Oct 19 16:28:35 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 16:28:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] In Frost's footsteps: Vermont Poet Laureate Sydney Lea Message-ID: <8CE5CB4CFE8A718-2260-B817@webmail-m130.sysops.aol.com> http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/article/20111009/ARTS04/110090311/In-Frost-s-footsteps-Vermont-Poet-Laureate-Sydney-Lea?odyssey=mod%7Cnewswell%7Ctext%7CFRONTPAGE%7Cp When he opened the document he had written to earn his Ph.D. in comparative literature at Yale, "it was like looking into an abyss," Lea said. "I spoke aloud," Lea recalled last week. "I said, 'I don't want to do this when I grow up." He was 34. Instead, Lea wanted to write poetry. He had had written some verse years earlier - the standard "break-up with your girlfriend poetry that we all do, and hope will disappear into the great void." Nonetheless, staring into the abyss of his past scholarship, Lea recognized he wanted to write. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Wed Oct 19 16:29:25 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 13:29:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. In-Reply-To: <1CD6C870650F40FFAC9CC0F8C78929C7@BobHP> Message-ID: <1319056165.69282.YahooMailClassic@web161913.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Is Grumman speechless? Is this a math thing. Infinitiy ... & all of that. --- On Tue, 10/18/11, bob grumman wrote: From: bob grumman Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Tuesday, October 18, 2011, 10:48 AM ? ? From: Skip Fox Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 10:01 AM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. ? Of course. I always defer to Anny. Who wouldn't? ? MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE ? --Guess Who -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Wed Oct 19 16:32:14 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 13:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] "Best" In-Reply-To: <8CE5CB3A2E810DF-340-6F2C@webmail-m070.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1319056334.54231.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Yeah. I mixed him up with a Maryland blues guy. I heard a remarkable ukehele performer from Ireland last night. On some NPR show. Wish I could remember her name. Lovely voice, and she plays the uke as well as anyone. --- On Wed, 10/19/11, almaginnes at aol.com wrote: From: almaginnes at aol.com Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "Best" To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Wednesday, October 19, 2011, 4:20 PM Rory Gallagher was a blues rock player from Ireland. He died of complications following a liver transplant. -----Original Message----- From: stephen russell To: NewPoetry List Sent: Wed, Oct 19, 2011 4:16 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "Best" No, I was think about Roy Buew ... cannon ... too much brain D 2 bother with spelling ... I not so sure about Rory Gallaher ... was he the guy who played on Hee Haw, the fun hillbilly show? If so, he also was an inside the Washington beltway guy. In fact, from D.C. --- On Mon, 10/17/11, stephen russell wrote: From: stephen russell Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "Best" To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 3:21 PM Rory Gallagher, another great inside the (Washington) Beltway picker. & suicide. Him,?plus Danny Gatten ... lots of bi-polar in these parts ... depression ... talent ... ? ..." & there leans a twelve string wizard, looming three stories high ... ? Great closing line. Reminds me of Yeats. Why Yeats??... don't know why? --- On Sun, 10/16/11, David Graham wrote: From: David Graham Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "Best" To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Sunday, October 16, 2011, 11:27 AM On Oct 16, 2011, at 2:22 AM, Jerry McGuire wrote: to find a grizzled, fat Rory Gallagher playing solo electric. . . .? ========================= Jerry, Well, we're having fun, anyway! ?Liked your poem. ?Here's another of mine, this time an older one, that old Rory Gallagher put me in mind of. ?The 12-string wizard mentioned here was Roger McGuinn, as I recall, in some Rolling Stone feature way back when.? Whatya think, shall we let others play this game? Photos Of Old Rock Stars Backlit, cadaverous, glaring like coins, they wear themselves no less than their gold jackets. Still the gaudy rings, pegged leather pants, cigarettes' pluming between famous fingers. A few sport pumped-up post-psychedelic bodies, though, to go with their graying beards and the fret lines around their eyes.? Women can be forgiven if they choose soft focus or long shot, given the audience, but those who don't often look great:? travelled, weary, and satisfied, amen.? Best shot, though, is of a Hollywood backdrop--skyscrapers of some generic gotham.? And there leans? a twelve-string wizard, looming three stories high. --David Graham. ?Egg (Spring 1997). ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== to find a grizzled, fat Rory Gallagher playing solo electric; and all? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Oct 19 17:04:25 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 17:04:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] In Frost's footsteps: Vermont Poet Laureate Sydney Lea In-Reply-To: <8CE5CB4CFE8A718-2260-B817@webmail-m130.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE5CB4CFE8A718-2260-B817@webmail-m130.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CE5CB9D118D838-2260-C292@webmail-m130.sysops.aol.com> Fromt the end of that article... August issue of The New England Review, Lea published an essay, "Robert Frost and the End of Poetry." He writes: "Poets are of course famous for brooding, often on what has been. Many, myself included, worry that we are at this point really, absolutely, at the end, just now because of the racing development of technology: e-books, Kindle, texting, Twittering, etc. Poets, though, have pretty much always thought their art to be in its sunset phase. Like men and women who reach a certain biological age, we all must come to mourn a vanished and ? inevitably, to our way of thinking ? a better age." -----Original Message----- From: jforjames To: new-poetry Sent: Wed, Oct 19, 2011 4:28 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] In Frost's footsteps: Vermont Poet Laureate Sydney Lea http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/article/20111009/ARTS04/110090311/In-Frost-s-footsteps-Vermont-Poet-Laureate-Sydney-Lea?odyssey=mod%7Cnewswell%7Ctext%7CFRONTPAGE%7Cp When he opened the document he had written to earn his Ph.D. in comparative literature at Yale, "it was like looking into an abyss," Lea said. "I spoke aloud," Lea recalled last week. "I said, 'I don't want to do this when I grow up." He was 34. Instead, Lea wanted to write poetry. He had had written some verse years earlier - the standard "break-up with your girlfriend poetry that we all do, and hope will disappear into the great void." Nonetheless, staring into the abyss of his past scholarship, Lea recognized he wanted to write. _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Wed Oct 19 17:11:46 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 14:11:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. In-Reply-To: <1319056165.69282.YahooMailClassic@web161913.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1319058706.72908.YahooMailClassic@web161909.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> & speaking of 1st tier lit ... 1st tier mathmatics ... how 'bout that David Foster Wallace ... he wrote a non-fiction book on math ... I got half way through ... felt stupid ... then read a review ... according the the critic ... "who did Wallace intend as his audience? ... I (the critic) have a PHD in mathmatics, & found this hard reading." & so it goes ... critics are useful ... I felt vindicated. David Foster Wallace studied philosophy. With an emphasis in mathmatics. He may have been the most gifted, still young writer in America ... the guy hangs himself. Question: why do the very bright pick such gruesome mean to off themselves. The neck, after all, is strong. The rope too. Didn't the medivial French poet, Villon, get sentenced to hang. His comment is classic: "Now my ass shall feel the weight of my neck." Very mathmatical. Very French. --- On Wed, 10/19/11, stephen russell wrote: From: stephen russell Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Wednesday, October 19, 2011, 4:29 PM Is Grumman speechless? Is this a math thing. Infinitiy ... & all of that. --- On Tue, 10/18/11, bob grumman wrote: From: bob grumman Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Tuesday, October 18, 2011, 10:48 AM ? ? From: Skip Fox Sent: Tuesday, October 18, 2011 10:01 AM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] assembling a poetry ms. ? Of course. I always defer to Anny. Who wouldn't? ? MEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE ? --Guess Who -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Oct 19 17:25:45 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 17:25:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Sound poems In-Reply-To: <1319034107.91219.YahooMailNeo@web120526.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <8CE5BE4644E2A8C-1610-6E40F@webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com> <1319034107.91219.YahooMailNeo@web120526.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CE5CBCCC3D0A98-2260-C937@webmail-m130.sysops.aol.com> At a performance I think I'd sit back a few rows, because it seems like you could get spit on if you sat too close. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: John Jeffrey To: NewPoetry List Sent: Wed, Oct 19, 2011 10:24 am Subject: [New-Poetry] Sound poems For those of you who have professed to liking your poetry new, to push the boundaries, to pack up the house and move so far outside the city limits that Wilshberia is nothing but a faint glow on the horizon at night, take a look at this Youtube video entitled, "2 Steve Timm sound poems in Racine Wisconsin." http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNSz6JG4tIw The second poem is the one that I found interesting. (He starts to, um, "read" it at around :50.) What struck me is that it's in a fairly conventional poetry reading setting (podium/mike/outside a library), which made it all the more incongruous. The first poem is performed on the street. In that environment it doesn't seem as odd. I used to see guys making noises like that all the time in New York City. Back before they cleaned up Times Square, that is. JohnJ _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Wed Oct 19 17:30:28 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 16:30:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sound poems In-Reply-To: <8CE5CBCCC3D0A98-2260-C937@webmail-m130.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE5BE4644E2A8C-1610-6E40F@webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com> <1319034107.91219.YahooMailNeo@web120526.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8CE5CBCCC3D0A98-2260-C937@webmail-m130.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Once upon a time, I sat in the first row at a Shakespeare performance at the Old Vic. Didn't get spat upon, though that would have been easy enough; I could see the trajectory of every actor's spittle. I did, however, get hit on the ankle by a runaway helmet in a battle scene. You can never be too careful, sez I. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 4:25 PM, wrote: > At a performance I think I'd sit back a few rows, because it seems like you > could get spit on if you sat too close. > Finnegan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Jeffrey > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Wed, Oct 19, 2011 10:24 am > Subject: [New-Poetry] Sound poems > > For those of you who have professed to liking your poetry new, to push > the boundaries, to pack up the house and move so far outside the city limits > that Wilshberia is nothing but a faint glow on the horizon at night, take a > look at this Youtube video entitled, "2 Steve Timm sound poems in Racine > Wisconsin." > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNSz6JG4tIw > > The second poem is the one that I found interesting. (He starts to, um, > "read" it at around :50.) What struck me is that it's in a fairly > conventional poetry reading setting (podium/mike/outside a library), which > made it all the more incongruous. The first poem is performed on the > street. In that environment it doesn't seem as odd. I used to see guys > making noises like that all the time in New York City. Back before they > cleaned up Times Square, that is. > > > JohnJ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Oct 19 17:39:14 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 17:39:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Tender_buttons_to_push=3A_Gertrude_Stein?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_overlooked_political_past?= Message-ID: <8CE5CBEAE294B78-2260-CD88@webmail-m130.sysops.aol.com> http://arts.nationalpost.com/2011/10/18/tender-buttons-to-push-gertrude-stein%E2%80%99s-overlooked-political-past/ Barbara Will has a lot to tell us about Stein and France but Stein?s motives remain inexplicable. In 1934 James Laughlin, a young American poet, later to be a publisher, spent some time with Stein and Fa?. He listened in astonishment while the two of them discussed Hitler as a great man. Her old friend Picasso, in his day a Stalinist, was astonished by Stein?s views. ?Gertrude was a real fascist,? Picasso told James Lord, according to Lord?s book, Six Exceptional Women. ?She always had a weakness for Franco. For P?tain, too. Can you imagine it? An American, a Jewess, what?s more.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cvoisine at nmsu.edu Wed Oct 19 19:16:21 2011 From: cvoisine at nmsu.edu (Connie Voisine) Date: Wed, 19 Oct 2011 17:16:21 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sound poems In-Reply-To: <8CE5CBCCC3D0A98-2260-C937@webmail-m130.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE5BE4644E2A8C-1610-6E40F@webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com> <1319034107.91219.YahooMailNeo@web120526.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8CE5CBCCC3D0A98-2260-C937@webmail-m130.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: sweat, too! c On Wed, Oct 19, 2011 at 3:25 PM, wrote: > At a performance I think I'd sit back a few rows, because it seems like you > could get spit on if you sat too close. > Finnegan > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Jeffrey > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Wed, Oct 19, 2011 10:24 am > Subject: [New-Poetry] Sound poems > > For those of you who have professed to liking your poetry new, to push the > boundaries, to pack up the house and move so far outside the city limits > that Wilshberia is nothing but a faint glow on the horizon at night, take a > look at this Youtube video entitled, "2 Steve Timm sound poems in Racine > Wisconsin." > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNSz6JG4tIw > > The second poem is the one that I found interesting.? (He starts to, um, > "read" it at around :50.)? What struck me is that it's in a fairly > conventional poetry reading setting (podium/mike/outside a library), which > made it all the more incongruous.? The first poem is performed on the > street.? In that environment it doesn't seem as odd.? I used to see guys > making noises like that all the time in New York City.? Back before they > cleaned up Times Square, that is. > > > JohnJ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Connie Voisine Associate Professor of English New Mexico State University cvoisine at nmsu.edu 575-646-2027 From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Oct 20 10:19:42 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 07:19:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Tender_buttons_to_push=3A_Gertrude_Stein?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_overlooked_political_past?= In-Reply-To: <8CE5CBEAE294B78-2260-CD88@webmail-m130.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE5CBEAE294B78-2260-CD88@webmail-m130.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1319120382.78835.YahooMailNeo@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> How to Sell a Book: Sensationalism 101 - Gertrude Stein, Jewish & living with her lesbian lover in occupied France, found to be a Nazi sympathizer! James Lord said Picasso said it; Barbara Will repeated it - it must be truth, on sale now. ********* Amy's Alias +?http://amyking.org/? ******** ________________________________ From: "jforjames at aol.com" To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 5:39 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past http://arts.nationalpost.com/2011/10/18/tender-buttons-to-push-gertrude-stein%E2%80%99s-overlooked-political-past/ ? Barbara Will has a lot to tell us about Stein and France but Stein?s motives remain inexplicable. In 1934 James Laughlin, a young American poet, later to be a publisher, spent some time with Stein and Fa?. He listened in astonishment while the two of them discussed Hitler as a great man. ? Her old friend Picasso, in his day a Stalinist, was astonished by Stein?s views. ?Gertrude was a real fascist,? Picasso told James Lord, according to Lord?s book, Six Exceptional Women. ?She always had a weakness for Franco. For P?tain, too. Can you imagine it? An American, a Jewess, what?s more.? ? _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Oct 20 10:37:44 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 09:37:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems about the Blues In-Reply-To: References: <4E9B2AC1.6010204@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: Let me second Carol's recommendation of Al Young as a consistently interesting poet steeped in the blues and jazz. Currently on my active shelf is his *Something About the Blues: an Unlikely Collection of Poetry*. Not sure exactly what's unlikely about it, but it contains a variety of the poems & some prose he's written about or in relation to the blues as music, as autobiography, as history, as feeling, as inspiration, as racial & political commentary, etc. It's a book of considerable range in style and theme, which is one thing I like about it. Young doesn't make much distinction between blues and jazz, either. Published by Sourcebooks, it comes with a CD of Young reading, often with musical accompaniment. Langston Hughes also appears reading "The Weary Blues" as lagniappe. Here's one of Young's poems from the collection: Who I Am in Twilight Like John Lee Hooker, like Lightnin' Hopkins, like the blues himself, the trickster sonnet, hoedown, the tango, the cante jondo. like blessed spirituals and ragas custom-made, like sagas, like stories, like slick, slow, sly soliloquies sliding into dramas, like Crime & Punishment, like death & birth, Canal Street, New Orleans, like the easy, erasable, troubled voices a whirling ceiling fan makes in deep summer nights in hot, un-heavenly hotels--Oklahoma, Arkansas, Tennessee--like the Mississippi River so deep and wide, you couldn't get a letter to the other side, like Grand Canyon, like Yosemite National Park, like beans & cornbread, like rest & recreation, like love and like, I know we last. I know our bleeding stops. --Al Young. Something About the Blues: an Unlikely Collection of Poetry. Sourcebooks, 2008. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Oct 18, 2011, at 8:33 AM, carol dorf wrote: > Not in a Jazz form, but references that world -- "Los Angeles, 1954" by David St. John. > Al Young comes out of the Jazz tradition, and the poem Up Jumped Spring references jazz, and the version on his web site has related music. > Carol > talkingwriting.com > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Oct 20 11:46:54 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 11:46:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Tender_buttons_to_push=3A_Gertrude_Stein?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_overlooked_political_past?= In-Reply-To: <1319120382.78835.YahooMailNeo@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <8CE5CBEAE294B78-2260-CD88@webmail-m130.sysops.aol.com> <1319120382.78835.YahooMailNeo@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CE5D56A06A2E48-1FBC-190A3@webmail-d140.sysops.aol.com> >From her credentials (CV online), Barbara Will doesn't seem to be a lightweight when it comes to her subject Gertrude Stein. I haven't read anything but that review, so I don't know the extent of Will's evidence, whether its firm or flimsy (or 'hyped'), but in order to write a new book about someone like Stein, you do have to have a new angle or some new source material, or what would be the point? That the great modernists were flawed and complicated people (after what we know about Pound, Eliot, Stevens), doesn't really surprise me. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: amy king To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thu, Oct 20, 2011 10:21 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past How to Sell a Book: Sensationalism 101 - Gertrude Stein, Jewish & living with her lesbian lover in occupied France, found to be a Nazi sympathizer! James Lord said Picasso said it; Barbara Will repeated it - it must be truth, on sale now. ********* Amy's Alias + http://amyking.org/ ******** From: "jforjames at aol.com" To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 5:39 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past http://arts.nationalpost.com/2011/10/18/tender-buttons-to-push-gertrude-stein%E2%80%99s-overlooked-political-past/ Barbara Will has a lot to tell us about Stein and France but Stein?s motives remain inexplicable. In 1934 James Laughlin, a young American poet, later to be a publisher, spent some time with Stein and Fa?. He listened in astonishment while the two of them discussed Hitler as a great man. Her old friend Picasso, in his day a Stalinist, was astonished by Stein?s views. ?Gertrude was a real fascist,? Picasso told James Lord, according to Lord?s book, Six Exceptional Women. ?She always had a weakness for Franco. For P?tain, too. Can you imagine it? An American, a Jewess, what?s more.? _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Oct 20 12:25:44 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 09:25:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Tender_buttons_to_push=3A_Gertrude_Stein?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_overlooked_political_past?= In-Reply-To: <8CE5D56A06A2E48-1FBC-190A3@webmail-d140.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE5CBEAE294B78-2260-CD88@webmail-m130.sysops.aol.com> <1319120382.78835.YahooMailNeo@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CE5D56A06A2E48-1FBC-190A3@webmail-d140.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1319127944.84552.YahooMailNeo@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Me neither. ?Nor do I discount Stein's privilege as a wealthy individual and how that wealth influenced her aesthetics as well as her actions. ?But this "angle" reeks of sensationalism. ?Feels like I'm looking at an Enquirer headline, really. ?I haven't read the book, but what I've heard so far is a newly-painted picture of a sell-out Jew who not only sympathized but supported fascism? ?Come on. ?When one's life is in danger, one makes concessions and gestures for survival - even writing that sentence is reductive and obvious. ?So let's isolate and promote those acts as 'proof' that Stein was a fascist? ?A Nazi sell-out? ? The Picasso quote (don't even know if it's substantiated) could have been a reference to her dogged work ethics - but her politics? ? She was supporting the extermination of the Jews? ?Do we really buy the notion that Stein thought that since she supposedly wasn't practicing that she could, in occupied France, be operating under the delusion that she could shed her Jewish heritage and remain unscathed and help support the extermination to boot. ?Yes, that's what she thought folks. ?It's published, in print! ?Must be true. ?Ugh. ?? I'm sure the author is an honorable, papered / pedigreed person with the right college credentials. ?But what's that quote about good people doing bad things? ?I'll have to take a look at the book at some point and make a more substantial judgment then, but right now, I'm disgusted by the phony-baloney "new" portrait of the naive self-loathing Jew with her strange affinities I've been hearing about. ? ********* Amy's Alias +?http://amyking.org/? ******** ________________________________ From: "jforjames at aol.com"? ?That the great?modernists were flawed and complicated people (after what we know about Pound, Eliot, Stevens), doesn't really surprise me. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: amy king To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thu, Oct 20, 2011 10:21 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past How to Sell a Book: Sensationalism 101 - Gertrude Stein, Jewish & living with her lesbian lover in occupied France, found to be a Nazi sympathizer! James Lord said Picasso said it; Barbara Will repeated it - it must be truth, on sale now. ********* Amy's Alias +?http://amyking.org/? ******** ________________________________ From: "jforjames at aol.com" To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 5:39 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past http://arts.nationalpost.com/2011/10/18/tender-buttons-to-push-gertrude-stein%E2%80%99s-overlooked-political-past/ ? Barbara Will has a lot to tell us about Stein and France but Stein?s motives remain inexplicable. In 1934 James Laughlin, a young American poet, later to be a publisher, spent some time with Stein and Fa?. He listened in astonishment while the two of them discussed Hitler as a great man. ? Her old friend Picasso, in his day a Stalinist, was astonished by Stein?s views. ?Gertrude was a real fascist,? Picasso told James Lord, according to Lord?s book, Six Exceptional Women. ?She always had a weakness for Franco. For P?tain, too. Can you imagine it? An American, a Jewess, what?s more.? ? _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Oct 20 13:21:00 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 13:21:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: On the Idea of Order: More on Poetry Manuscripts In-Reply-To: <1108227890037.1101368942391.139.6.25123004@scheduler> References: <1108227890037.1101368942391.139.6.25123004@scheduler> Message-ID: <8CE5D63C50E7502-1FBC-1A822@webmail-d140.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: Tupelo Press Sent: Thu, Oct 20, 2011 12:30 pm Subject: On the Idea of Order: More on Poetry Manuscripts Having trouble viewing this email? Click here The 2011 Dorset Prize is open for submissions! September 1 - December 31, 2011 (postmark or online submission-date) Final Judge: Tom Sleigh $3,000 Prize Read full guidelines here: http://www.tupelopress.org/dorset.php Publisher and Editor-in-Chief, Jeffrey Levine, further explores the idea of order in poetry manuscripts in a new blog post. From time-to-time we will be announcing these blog posts as a gift to readers of the Tupelo Press emails and newsletters. We hope you'll find these craft, art, and publishing-related posts helpful, and we invite your comments. Please click here to read the post. Million-Line Poem called first world-wide forum for user-generated poetry in history For the remainder of this month (October), we'll take your submissions (only 2 lines per day per person, please) without requiring a $2 entry fee. We'd be very grateful if you'd consider making a tax-free donation to Tupelo Press; you may do so here. Everyone has two good lines. Share yours here! Forward email This email was sent to jforjames at aol.com by announce at tupelopress.org | Update Profile/Email Address | Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribe? | Privacy Policy. Tupelo Press | P.O. Box 1767 | North Adams | MA | 01247 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Oct 20 14:13:40 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:13:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems about the Blues In-Reply-To: References: <4E9B2AC1.6010204@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <8CE5D6B20D0EDA0-1FBC-1B75A@webmail-d140.sysops.aol.com> A favorite of mine: Larry Levis' "My Story in a Late Style of Fire"... http://www.blackbird.vcu.edu/v5n2/poetry/levis_l/story.htm -----Original Message----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thu, Oct 20, 2011 10:37 am Subject: [New-Poetry] Poems about the Blues Let me second Carol's recommendation of Al Young as a consistently interesting poet steeped in the blues and jazz. Currently on my active shelf is his *Something About the Blues: an Unlikely Collection of Poetry*. Not sure exactly what's unlikely about it, but it contains a variety of the poems & some prose he's written about or in relation to the blues as music, as autobiography, as history, as feeling, as inspiration, as racial & political commentary, etc. It's a book of considerable range in style and theme, which is one thing I like about it. Young doesn't make much distinction between blues and jazz, either. Published by Sourcebooks, it comes with a CD of Young reading, often with musical accompaniment. Langston Hughes also appears reading "The Weary Blues" as lagniappe. Here's one of Young's poems from the collection: Who I Am in Twilight Like John Lee Hooker, like Lightnin' Hopkins, like the blues himself, the trickster sonnet, hoedown, the tango, the cante jondo. like blessed spirituals and ragas custom-made, like sagas, like stories, like slick, slow, sly soliloquies sliding into dramas, like Crime & Punishment, like death & birth, Canal Street, New Orleans, like the easy, erasable, troubled voices a whirling ceiling fan makes in deep summer nights in hot, un-heavenly hotels--Oklahoma, Arkansas, Tennessee--like the Mississippi River so deep and wide, you couldn't get a letter to the other side, like Grand Canyon, like Yosemite National Park, like beans & cornbread, like rest & recreation, like love and like, I know we last. I know our bleeding stops. --Al Young. Something About the Blues: an Unlikely Collection of Poetry. Sourcebooks, 2008. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Oct 18, 2011, at 8:33 AM, carol dorf wrote: Not in a Jazz form, but references that world -- "Los Angeles, 1954" by David St. John. Al Young comes out of the Jazz tradition, and the poem Up Jumped Spring references jazz, and the version on his web site has related music. Carol talkingwriting.com _______________________________________________ _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Thu Oct 20 16:16:34 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 13:16:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Tender_buttons_to_push=3A_Gertrude_Stein?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_overlooked_political_past?= In-Reply-To: <1319127944.84552.YahooMailNeo@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1319141794.61325.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I'll get to Stein ... first ... Go figure. Complicated motives. I still consider Poetry Language and Thought the most beautiful prose of the 20th century. Of course, the book was more a screed against modernity than a book about poetry (in the narrow sense). And yet, Heidegger's student, Hannah Arendt (Jewish/European), defends him to the end. At least in public. But much of Heidegger's actions disgusted her ... I remember D Chirot saying that thoughts, or words, that honored the blood, the soil, the Volk ... somehow lead to ethnic cleansing ... too simple. It was the Climate of opinion (to use Frued's phrase) that lead to ethnic cleansing. Richard Rorty said it best about Heidegger: To paraphrase ... perhaps the finest philosopher of the 20th century, and a political coward. Having said all of that, at some point, wouldn't it have served Stein well to be less cyrptic? ... & voice her words to someone in a manner than would have made her opinion concerning facism known. Are there any words ... to anyone, anywhere, that would make Stein seem less of a coward? In a court of law, Stein would have to take the stand. Otherwise, we only have her words, her manner of living. --- On Thu, 10/20/11, amy king wrote: From: amy king Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, October 20, 2011, 12:25 PM Me neither. ?Nor do I discount Stein's privilege as a wealthy individual and how that wealth influenced her aesthetics as well as her actions. ?But this "angle" reeks of sensationalism. ?Feels like I'm looking at an Enquirer headline, really. ?I haven't read the book, but what I've heard so far is a newly-painted picture of a sell-out Jew who not only sympathized but supported fascism? ?Come on. ?When one's life is in danger, one makes concessions and gestures for survival - even writing that sentence is reductive and obvious. ?So let's isolate and promote those acts as 'proof' that Stein was a fascist? ?A Nazi sell-out? ? The Picasso quote (don't even know if it's substantiated) could have been a reference to her dogged work ethics - but her politics? ? She was supporting the extermination of the Jews? ?Do we really buy the notion that Stein thought that since she supposedly wasn't practicing that she could, in occupied France, be operating under the delusion that she could shed her Jewish heritage and remain unscathed and help support the extermination to boot. ?Yes, that's what she thought folks. ?It's published, in print! ?Must be true. ?Ugh. ?? I'm sure the author is an honorable, papered / pedigreed person with the right college credentials. ?But what's that quote about good people doing bad things? ?I'll have to take a look at the book at some point and make a more substantial judgment then, but right now, I'm disgusted by the phony-baloney "new" portrait of the naive self-loathing Jew with her strange affinities I've been hearing about. ? *********Amy's Alias+?http://amyking.org/?******** From: "jforjames at aol.com"? ?That the great?modernists were flawed and complicated people (after what we know about Pound, Eliot, Stevens), doesn't really surprise me. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: amy king To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thu, Oct 20, 2011 10:21 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past How to Sell a Book: Sensationalism 101 - Gertrude Stein, Jewish & living with her lesbian lover in occupied France, found to be a Nazi sympathizer! James Lord said Picasso said it; Barbara Will repeated it - it must be truth, on sale now. ********* Amy's Alias +?http://amyking.org/? ******** From: "jforjames at aol.com" To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 5:39 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past http://arts.nationalpost.com/2011/10/18/tender-buttons-to-push-gertrude-stein%E2%80%99s-overlooked-political-past/ ? Barbara Will has a lot to tell us about Stein and France but Stein?s motives remain inexplicable. In 1934 James Laughlin, a young American poet, later to be a publisher, spent some time with Stein and Fa?. He listened in astonishment while the two of them discussed Hitler as a great man. ? Her old friend Picasso, in his day a Stalinist, was astonished by Stein?s views. ?Gertrude was a real fascist,? Picasso told James Lord, according to Lord?s book, Six Exceptional Women. ?She always had a weakness for Franco. For P?tain, too. Can you imagine it? An American, a Jewess, what?s more.? ? _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Thu Oct 20 16:45:52 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 13:45:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Addressed to B Grumman Message-ID: <1319143552.2340.YahooMailClassic@web161913.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Bob, I consider this an Evangelical Avant Garde poem, influenced by the Left Behind series of novels. Also, a potential bestseller. Am I correct? Lost Paradise T? A? H? W T? U? O? B? A T? A? H? T E? K? A? N? S (left) behind ????? i ????? n ? Ed? en? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Thu Oct 20 16:57:39 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 13:57:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Tender_buttons_to_push=3A_Gertrude_Stein?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_overlooked_political_past?= In-Reply-To: <1319141794.61325.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1319144259.36772.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Stein, after all, had the money and status to remain ... tucked away ... safe. That's what I mean by saying ... if there are no words to indicate Stein's opposition to facism, then she, too, is a political coward. Poets are prone to read between the lines when it isn't necessary. --- On Thu, 10/20/11, stephen russell wrote: From: stephen russell Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, October 20, 2011, 4:16 PM I'll get to Stein ... first ... Go figure. Complicated motives. I still consider Poetry Language and Thought the most beautiful prose of the 20th century. Of course, the book was more a screed against modernity than a book about poetry (in the narrow sense). And yet, Heidegger's student, Hannah Arendt (Jewish/European), defends him to the end. At least in public. But much of Heidegger's actions disgusted her ... I remember D Chirot saying that thoughts, or words, that honored the blood, the soil, the Volk ... somehow lead to ethnic cleansing ... too simple. It was the Climate of opinion (to use Frued's phrase) that lead to ethnic cleansing. Richard Rorty said it best about Heidegger: To paraphrase ... perhaps the finest philosopher of the 20th century, and a political coward. Having said all of that, at some point, wouldn't it have served Stein well to be less cyrptic? ... & voice her words to someone in a manner than would have made her opinion concerning facism known. Are there any words ... to anyone, anywhere, that would make Stein seem less of a coward? In a court of law, Stein would have to take the stand. Otherwise, we only have her words, her manner of living. --- On Thu, 10/20/11, amy king wrote: From: amy king Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, October 20, 2011, 12:25 PM Me neither. ?Nor do I discount Stein's privilege as a wealthy individual and how that wealth influenced her aesthetics as well as her actions. ?But this "angle" reeks of sensationalism. ?Feels like I'm looking at an Enquirer headline, really. ?I haven't read the book, but what I've heard so far is a newly-painted picture of a sell-out Jew who not only sympathized but supported fascism? ?Come on. ?When one's life is in danger, one makes concessions and gestures for survival - even writing that sentence is reductive and obvious. ?So let's isolate and promote those acts as 'proof' that Stein was a fascist? ?A Nazi sell-out? ? The Picasso quote (don't even know if it's substantiated) could have been a reference to her dogged work ethics - but her politics? ? She was supporting the extermination of the Jews? ?Do we really buy the notion that Stein thought that since she supposedly wasn't practicing that she could, in occupied France, be operating under the delusion that she could shed her Jewish heritage and remain unscathed and help support the extermination to boot. ?Yes, that's what she thought folks. ?It's published, in print! ?Must be true. ?Ugh. ?? I'm sure the author is an honorable, papered / pedigreed person with the right college credentials. ?But what's that quote about good people doing bad things? ?I'll have to take a look at the book at some point and make a more substantial judgment then, but right now, I'm disgusted by the phony-baloney "new" portrait of the naive self-loathing Jew with her strange affinities I've been hearing about. ? *********Amy's Alias+?http://amyking.org/?******** From: "jforjames at aol.com"? ?That the great?modernists were flawed and complicated people (after what we know about Pound, Eliot, Stevens), doesn't really surprise me. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: amy king To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thu, Oct 20, 2011 10:21 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past How to Sell a Book: Sensationalism 101 - Gertrude Stein, Jewish & living with her lesbian lover in occupied France, found to be a Nazi sympathizer! James Lord said Picasso said it; Barbara Will repeated it - it must be truth, on sale now. ********* Amy's Alias +?http://amyking.org/? ******** From: "jforjames at aol.com" To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 5:39 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past http://arts.nationalpost.com/2011/10/18/tender-buttons-to-push-gertrude-stein%E2%80%99s-overlooked-political-past/ ? Barbara Will has a lot to tell us about Stein and France but Stein?s motives remain inexplicable. In 1934 James Laughlin, a young American poet, later to be a publisher, spent some time with Stein and Fa?. He listened in astonishment while the two of them discussed Hitler as a great man. ? Her old friend Picasso, in his day a Stalinist, was astonished by Stein?s views. ?Gertrude was a real fascist,? Picasso told James Lord, according to Lord?s book, Six Exceptional Women. ?She always had a weakness for Franco. For P?tain, too. Can you imagine it? An American, a Jewess, what?s more.? ? _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Oct 20 17:03:08 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 17:03:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Addressed to B Grumman In-Reply-To: <1319143552.2340.YahooMailClassic@web161913.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1319143552.2340.YahooMailClassic@web161913.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <63475CD8272A498A994BCB6DC43E890B@BobHP> From: stephen russell Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 4:45 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Addressed to B Grumman Bob, I consider this an Evangelical Avant Garde poem, influenced by the Left Behind series of novels. Also, a potential bestseller. Am I correct? Lost Paradise T A H W T U O B A T A H T E K A N S (left) behind i n Ed en? Well, it made me smile, Stephen?and made me think for the very first time about how it is that the snake got Eden all to himself. I don?t think Evangelicals would approve of that, but God didn?t expel the snake, did he? --Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Oct 20 17:13:53 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 17:13:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Tender_buttons_to_push=3A_Gertrude_Stein?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_overlooked_political_past?= In-Reply-To: <1319144259.36772.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1319144259.36772.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <86E4018D7BB349D5B44E7C551B92FDE9@BobHP> From: stephen russell Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 4:57 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry]Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past Stein, after all, had the money and status to remain ... tucked away ... safe. That's what I mean by saying ... if there are no words to indicate Stein's opposition to facism, then she, too, is a political coward. Poets are prone to read between the lines when it isn't necessary. What she did for literature during the Nazi Era was a hundred times greater than anything she could have done politically, even if she?d been politically correct, by current standards, which she was not. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 17:15:32 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 16:15:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Tender_buttons_to_push=3A_Gertrude_Stein?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_overlooked_political_past?= In-Reply-To: <86E4018D7BB349D5B44E7C551B92FDE9@BobHP> References: <1319144259.36772.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <86E4018D7BB349D5B44E7C551B92FDE9@BobHP> Message-ID: What Bob said. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 4:13 PM, bob grumman wrote: > > > *From:* stephen russell > *Sent:* Thursday, October 20, 2011 4:57 PM > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry]Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s > overlooked political past > > Stein, after all, had the money and status to remain ... tucked away > ... safe. That's what I mean by saying ... if there are no words to indicate > Stein's opposition to facism, then she, too, is a political coward. Poets > are prone to read between the lines when it isn't necessary. > > What she did for literature during the Nazi Era was a hundred times greater > than anything she could have done politically, even if she?d been > politically correct, by current standards, which she was not. > > --Bob > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Thu Oct 20 17:22:31 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:22:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Tender_buttons_to_push=3A_Gertrude_Stein?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_overlooked_political_past?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319145751.81529.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Of course, I agree with Bob. D H Lawrence was exactly politically correct either. & far more interesting than Stein. --- On Thu, 10/20/11, Halvard Johnson wrote: From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, October 20, 2011, 5:15 PM What Bob said. ?? ? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.orghttp://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 4:13 PM, bob grumman wrote: ? ? From: stephen russell Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 4:57 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry]Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past ? Stein, after all, had the money and status to remain ... tucked away ... safe. That's what I mean by saying ... if there are no words to indicate Stein's opposition to facism, then she, too, is a political coward. Poets are prone to read between the lines when it isn't necessary. ? What she did for literature during the Nazi Era was a hundred times greater than anything she could have done politically, even if she?d been politically correct, by current standards, which she was not.? ? --Bob ? ? _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Thu Oct 20 17:55:20 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:55:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Wisdom for the ages Message-ID: <1319147720.92448.YahooMailClassic@web161909.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Compared to nothing, these baked potato chips taste good. Compared to potato chips, they taste like nothing.David Kirby -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 18:11:16 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 17:11:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Tender_buttons_to_push=3A_Gertrude_Stein?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_overlooked_political_past?= In-Reply-To: <1319145751.81529.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1319145751.81529.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'd much rather read Stein than Lawrence. Just saying. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 4:22 PM, stephen russell < poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: > Of course, I agree with Bob. D H Lawrence was exactly politically correct > either. & far more interesting than Stein. > > --- On *Thu, 10/20/11, Halvard Johnson * wrote: > > > From: Halvard Johnson > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s > overlooked political past > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Thursday, October 20, 2011, 5:15 PM > > > What Bob said. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 4:13 PM, bob grumman > > wrote: > > > > *From:* stephen russell > *Sent:* Thursday, October 20, 2011 4:57 PM > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry]Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s > overlooked political past > > Stein, after all, had the money and status to remain ... tucked away > ... safe. That's what I mean by saying ... if there are no words to indicate > Stein's opposition to facism, then she, too, is a political coward. Poets > are prone to read between the lines when it isn't necessary. > > What she did for literature during the Nazi Era was a hundred times greater > than anything she could have done politically, even if she?d been > politically correct, by current standards, which she was not. > > --Bob > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Oct 20 18:19:00 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:19:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Tender_buttons_to_push=3A_Gertrude_Stein?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_overlooked_political_past?= In-Reply-To: <1319144259.36772.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1319141794.61325.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1319144259.36772.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1319149140.90863.YahooMailNeo@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Stephen, ? It's naive, at best,?to think that being?wealthy made any Jewish person "safe" under Hitler's occupation.? It's almost as dangerous to reductively claim?one of the?genius?modernist writers, who was a Jew living under Hitler's regime,?was?a fascist to sell books today.??? ? I don't take issue with examining Stein's actions during the occupation, but if they are not contextualized (as it seems they are not) and are characterized / framed as being duplicitously in favor of fascism (even a supporter), then I do take offense - and wonder how others cannot.? But then again, as noted, I have to see the book.? So far though, based on the hype around this book, it sounds like my perhaps-premptive?offense is founded.? I hope I'm wrong. ? Amy ********* Amy's Alias +?http://amyking.org/? ******** ________________________________ From: stephen russell To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 4:57 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past Stein, after all, had the money and status to remain ... tucked away ... safe. That's what I mean by saying ... if there are no words to indicate Stein's opposition to facism, then she, too, is a political coward. Poets are prone to read between the lines when it isn't necessary. --- On Thu, 10/20/11, stephen russell wrote: >From: stephen russell >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past >To: "NewPoetry List" >Date: Thursday, October 20, 2011, 4:16 PM > > >I'll get to Stein ... first ... > >Go figure. Complicated motives. I still consider Poetry Language and Thought the most beautiful prose of the 20th century. Of course, the book was more a screed against modernity than a book about poetry (in the narrow sense). And yet, Heidegger's student, Hannah Arendt (Jewish/European), defends him to the end. At least in public. But much of Heidegger's actions disgusted her ... I remember D Chirot saying that thoughts, or words, that honored the blood, the soil, the Volk ... somehow lead to ethnic cleansing ... too simple. It was the Climate of opinion (to use Frued's phrase) that lead to ethnic cleansing. Richard Rorty said it best about Heidegger: To paraphrase ... perhaps the finest philosopher of the 20th century, and a political coward. Having said all of that, at some point, wouldn't it have served Stein well to be less cyrptic? ... & voice her words to someone in a manner than would have made her opinion concerning facism known. Are there any words ... to anyone, anywhere, that would make Stein seem less of a coward? In a court of law, Stein would have to take the stand. Otherwise, we only have her words, her manner of living. >--- On Thu, 10/20/11, amy king wrote: > > >>From: amy king >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past >>To: "NewPoetry List" >>Date: Thursday, October 20, 2011, 12:25 PM >> >> >>Me neither. ?Nor do I discount Stein's privilege as a wealthy individual and how that wealth influenced her aesthetics as well as her actions. ?But this "angle" reeks of sensationalism. ?Feels like I'm looking at an Enquirer headline, really. ?I haven't read the book, but what I've heard so far is a newly-painted picture of a sell-out Jew who not only sympathized but supported fascism? ?Come on. ?When one's life is in danger, one makes concessions and gestures for survival - even writing that sentence is reductive and obvious. ?So let's isolate and promote those acts as 'proof' that Stein was a fascist? ?A Nazi sell-out? ? The Picasso quote (don't even know if it's substantiated) could have been a reference to her dogged work ethics - but her politics? ? She was supporting the extermination of the Jews? ?Do we really buy the notion that Stein thought that since she supposedly wasn't practicing that she could, in occupied France, be operating under the delusion that she could shed her Jewish heritage and remain unscathed and help support the extermination to boot. ?Yes, that's what she thought folks. ?It's published, in print! ?Must be true. ?Ugh. ?? >>I'm sure the author is an honorable, papered / pedigreed person with the right college credentials. ?But what's that quote about good people doing bad things? ?I'll have to take a look at the book at some point and make a more substantial judgment then, but right now, I'm disgusted by the phony-baloney "new" portrait of the naive self-loathing Jew with her strange affinities I've been hearing about. ? >>********* >>Amy's Alias >>+?http://amyking.org/? >>******** >> >>________________________________ >>From: "jforjames at aol.com"? >>?That the great?modernists were flawed and complicated people (after what we know about Pound, Eliot, Stevens), doesn't really surprise me. >>Finnegan >>-----Original Message-----From: amy king To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thu, Oct 20, 2011 10:21 amSubject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past >>How to Sell a Book: Sensationalism 101 - Gertrude Stein, Jewish & living with her lesbian lover in occupied France, found to be a Nazi sympathizer! James Lord said Picasso said it; Barbara Will repeated it - it must be truth, on sale now. >> >>********* >>Amy's Alias >>+?http://amyking.org/? >>******** >> >>________________________________ >>From: "jforjames at aol.com" >>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 5:39 PM >>Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past >> >>http://arts.nationalpost.com/2011/10/18/tender-buttons-to-push-gertrude-stein%E2%80%99s-overlooked-political-past/ >> >>Barbara Will has a lot to tell us about Stein and France but Stein?s motives remain inexplicable. In 1934 James Laughlin, a young American poet, later to be a publisher, spent some time with Stein and Fa?. He listened in astonishment while the two of them discussed Hitler as a great man. >> >>Her old friend Picasso, in his day a Stalinist, was astonished by Stein?s views. ?Gertrude was a real fascist,? Picasso told James Lord, according to Lord?s book, Six Exceptional Women. ?She always had a weakness for Franco. For P?tain, too. Can you imagine it? An American, a Jewess, what?s more.? >> >> >>_______________________________________________New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>_______________________________________________New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>-----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> >>_______________________________________________New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >-----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > >_______________________________________________New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Thu Oct 20 18:22:35 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:22:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Tender_buttons_to_push=3A_Gertrude_Stein?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_overlooked_political_past?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319149355.19000.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I don't read Lawrence anymore ... except for Classic Studies in American Lit. That, when I'm up for it, I'll never stop reading. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Stein always struck me as yet another one clever idea /writer ... rose ... is a rose ... is a rose ... it's subtle, but the charm wears off ... in my case, rather soon. W C Williams was hip to the the thing itself ... meaning language. I've always felt that Stein got more than her share of credit for her one clever idea. --- On Thu, 10/20/11, Halvard Johnson wrote: From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, October 20, 2011, 6:11 PM I'd much rather read Stein than Lawrence. Just saying. ?? ? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 4:22 PM, stephen russell wrote: Of course, I agree with Bob. D H Lawrence was exactly politically correct either. & far more interesting than Stein. --- On Thu, 10/20/11, Halvard Johnson wrote: From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, October 20, 2011, 5:15 PM What Bob said. ?? ? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 4:13 PM, bob grumman wrote: ? ? From: stephen russell Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 4:57 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry]Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past ? Stein, after all, had the money and status to remain ... tucked away ... safe. That's what I mean by saying ... if there are no words to indicate Stein's opposition to facism, then she, too, is a political coward. Poets are prone to read between the lines when it isn't necessary. ? What she did for literature during the Nazi Era was a hundred times greater than anything she could have done politically, even if she?d been politically correct, by current standards, which she was not.? ? --Bob ? ? _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Thu Oct 20 18:31:53 2011 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:31:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Tender_buttons_to_push=3A_Gertrude_Stein?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_overlooked_political_past?= In-Reply-To: <1319149355.19000.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1319149355.19000.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1319149913.9589.YahooMailNeo@web160116.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Her one clever idea? Stein has more than one clever idea. I love her weird, contorted semantic incompatibilities; they demonstrate that meaning-making extends beyond logically consistent statements; that semantic incompatibility may be viewed as a form of meaning-making. Not nonsense: dis-sense, or something. I don't think that has anything to do with WCW's project, personally. Besides, Stein wrote better songs than WCW, which I find very bland, most of the time (flinching and waiting for the blows to fall). Amicalement, Alex ? www.alexdickow.net/blog/ ? les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ________________________________ From: stephen russell To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past I don't read Lawrence anymore ... except for Classic Studies in American Lit. That, when I'm up for it, I'll never stop reading. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Stein always struck me as yet another one clever idea /writer ... rose ... is a rose ... is a rose ... it's subtle, but the charm wears off ... in my case, rather soon. W C Williams was hip to the the thing itself ... meaning language. I've always felt that Stein got more than her share of credit for her one clever idea. --- On Thu, 10/20/11, Halvard Johnson wrote: >From: Halvard Johnson >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past >To: "NewPoetry List" >Date: Thursday, October 20, 2011, 6:11 PM > > >I'd much rather read Stein than Lawrence. Just saying. > >?? ? > > >Serving the tri-state area. > > >Hal >Halvard Johnson >================ > >halvard at gmail.com >http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ >http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ >http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ >http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > > >Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; >Transparencies & Projections > > > > > >On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 4:22 PM, stephen russell wrote: > >Of course, I agree with Bob. D H Lawrence was exactly politically correct either. & far more interesting than Stein. >> >>--- On Thu, 10/20/11, Halvard Johnson wrote: >> >> >>>From: Halvard Johnson >>> >>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past >>>To: "NewPoetry List" >>>Date: Thursday, October 20, 2011, 5:15 PM >>> >>> >>> >>>What Bob said. >>> >>>?? ? >>> >>> >>>Serving the tri-state area. >>> >>> >>>Hal >>>Halvard Johnson >>>================ >>> >>>halvard at gmail.com >>>http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >>>http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >>>http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >>>http://www.hamiltonstone.org >>>http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >>> >>> >>> >>>Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; >>>Transparencies & Projections >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 4:13 PM, bob grumman wrote: >>> >>>?? >>>>From: stephen russell >>>>Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 4:57 PM >>>>To: NewPoetry List >>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry]Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past >>>>? >>>>Stein, after all, had the money and status to remain ... tucked away ... safe. That's what I mean by saying ... if there are no words to indicate Stein's opposition to facism, then she, too, is a political coward. Poets are prone to read between the lines when it isn't necessary. >>>>? >>>>What she did for literature during the Nazi Era was a hundred times greater than anything she could have done politically, even if she?d been politically correct, by current standards, which she was not.? >>>>? >>>>--Bob >>>> >>>> >>>>? >>>>> >>>>>? >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>>-----Inline Attachment Follows----- >>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > >-----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 18:39:19 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 17:39:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Tender_buttons_to_push=3A_Gertrude_Stein?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_overlooked_political_past?= In-Reply-To: <1319149913.9589.YahooMailNeo@web160116.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1319149355.19000.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1319149913.9589.YahooMailNeo@web160116.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: What Alex said. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Alexander Dickow wrote: > Her one clever idea? Stein has more than one clever idea. I love her weird, > contorted semantic incompatibilities; they demonstrate that meaning-making > extends beyond logically consistent statements; that semantic > incompatibility may be viewed as a form of meaning-making. Not nonsense: > dis-sense, or something. I don't think that has anything to do with WCW's > project, personally. > Besides, Stein wrote better songs than WCW, which I find very bland, most > of the time (flinching and waiting for the blows to fall). > Amicalement, > Alex > > www.alexdickow.net/blog/ > > les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin > merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet > > ------------------------------ > *From:* stephen russell > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Sent:* Thursday, October 20, 2011 3:22 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s > overlooked political past > > I don't read Lawrence anymore ... except for Classic Studies in American > Lit. That, when I'm up for it, I'll never stop reading. > > Stein always struck me as yet another one clever idea /writer ... rose ... > is a rose ... is a rose ... it's subtle, but the charm wears off ... in my > case, rather soon. > > W C Williams was hip to the the thing itself ... meaning language. I've > always felt that Stein got more than her share of credit for her one > clever idea. > > > > --- On *Thu, 10/20/11, Halvard Johnson * wrote: > > > From: Halvard Johnson > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s > overlooked political past > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Thursday, October 20, 2011, 6:11 PM > > I'd much rather read Stein than Lawrence. Just saying. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 4:22 PM, stephen russell < > poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: > > Of course, I agree with Bob. D H Lawrence was exactly politically correct > either. & far more interesting than Stein. > > --- On *Thu, 10/20/11, Halvard Johnson * wrote: > > > From: Halvard Johnson > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s > overlooked political past > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Thursday, October 20, 2011, 5:15 PM > > > What Bob said. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 4:13 PM, bob grumman > > wrote: > > > > *From:* stephen russell > *Sent:* Thursday, October 20, 2011 4:57 PM > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry]Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s > overlooked political past > > Stein, after all, had the money and status to remain ... tucked away > ... safe. That's what I mean by saying ... if there are no words to indicate > Stein's opposition to facism, then she, too, is a political coward. Poets > are prone to read between the lines when it isn't necessary. > > What she did for literature during the Nazi Era was a hundred times greater > than anything she could have done politically, even if she?d been > politically correct, by current standards, which she was not. > > --Bob > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Thu Oct 20 18:50:32 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:50:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Tender_buttons_to_push=3A_Gertrude_Stein?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_overlooked_political_past?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319151032.84593.YahooMailClassic@web161913.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Well fuck it. Maybe I'm wrong. I can see where this is going ... I read Stein maybe 20 years ago. Was reading Faulkner at the time. I go for power, and thought everyone rather weak compared to the writer from Mississippi. I'm basically standing by an opinion I formed earlier ... maybe my sensibility has changed ... what the ... (next 4 letter word.) --- On Thu, 10/20/11, Halvard Johnson wrote: From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, October 20, 2011, 6:39 PM What Alex said. ?? ? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.orghttp://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Alexander Dickow wrote: Her one clever idea? Stein has more than one clever idea. I love her weird, contorted semantic incompatibilities; they demonstrate that meaning-making extends beyond logically consistent statements; that semantic incompatibility may be viewed as a form of meaning-making. Not nonsense: dis-sense, or something. I don't think that has anything to do with WCW's project, personally. Besides, Stein wrote better songs than WCW, which I find very bland, most of the time (flinching and waiting for the blows to fall). Amicalement,Alex ?www.alexdickow.net/blog/ ? les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet From: stephen russell To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past I don't read Lawrence anymore ... except for Classic Studies in American Lit. That, when I'm up for it, I'll never stop reading. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Stein always struck me as yet another one clever idea /writer ... rose ... is a rose ... is a rose ... it's subtle, but the charm wears off ... in my case, rather soon. W C Williams was hip to the the thing itself ... meaning language. I've always felt that Stein got more than her share of credit for her one clever idea. --- On Thu, 10/20/11, Halvard Johnson wrote: From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, October 20, 2011, 6:11 PM I'd much rather read Stein than Lawrence. Just saying. ?? ? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 4:22 PM, stephen russell wrote: Of course, I agree with Bob. D H Lawrence was exactly politically correct either. & far more interesting than Stein. --- On Thu, 10/20/11, Halvard Johnson wrote: From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, October 20, 2011, 5:15 PM What Bob said. ?? ? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 4:13 PM, bob grumman wrote: ? ? From: stephen russell Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 4:57 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry]Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past ? Stein, after all, had the money and status to remain ... tucked away ... safe. That's what I mean by saying ... if there are no words to indicate Stein's opposition to facism, then she, too, is a political coward. Poets are prone to read between the lines when it isn't necessary. ? What she did for literature during the Nazi Era was a hundred times greater than anything she could have done politically, even if she?d been politically correct, by current standards, which she was not.? ? --Bob ? ? _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Oct 20 18:50:49 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 18:50:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Tender_buttons_to_push=3A_Gertrude_Stein?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_overlooked_political_past?= In-Reply-To: References: <1319144259.36772.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><86E4018D7BB349D5B44E7C551B92FDE9@BobHP> Message-ID: <8CE5D91D8725EB5-F28-14DCA@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> Certainly Stein is great and changed literature as we know it, but I wouldn't say that gives her (or anyone) a moral free pass. (Nor am I'm going to judge her one way or the other at this point.) But let's say a hypothetical major writer in Stein's class collaborated, informed and otherwise put peoples' lives in peril, caused people to be tortured and put to death, then it wouldn't matter to me me how great the art was, at some level I'd disdain that artist for his/her acts. In short I don't think morally one should be wiling to trade art for lives. Incidentally a recent biography of the painter Morandi criticized his 'acts of omission' during the Mussolini's reign in Italy. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thu, Oct 20, 2011 5:15 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past What Bob said. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 4:13 PM, bob grumman wrote: From: stephen russell Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 4:57 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry]Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past Stein, after all, had the money and status to remain ... tucked away ... safe. That's what I mean by saying ... if there are no words to indicate Stein's opposition to facism, then she, too, is a political coward. Poets are prone to read between the lines when it isn't necessary. What she did for literature during the Nazi Era was a hundred times greater than anything she could have done politically, even if she?d been politically correct, by current standards, which she was not. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Thu Oct 20 18:44:48 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:44:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Tender_buttons_to_push=3A_Gertrude_Stein?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_overlooked_political_past?= Message-ID: <1319150688.32932.YahooMailClassic@web161916.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Wealth provided options that others couldn't afford. Safe was the wrong word.? As for your second point, I don't find thoughts dangerous, especially when given thoughtful context (which, of course, you're saying, too) . We haven't read this book, this sensational book ... & yes, the hype does strike me as? b.s. So perhaps there no disagreement. You're simply a Stein fan. I'm indifferent to Stein, but will probably give her another read at some point. Amy, I simply don't have heroes. Or any group I wish to defend. I wish people would look at capitalism for a change. It's as ugly as facism. Only more subtle.? --- On Thu, 10/20/11, amy king wrote: From: amy king Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, October 20, 2011, 6:19 PM Stephen, ? It's naive, at best,?to think that being?wealthy made any Jewish person "safe" under Hitler's occupation.? It's almost as dangerous to reductively claim?one of the?genius?modernist writers, who was a Jew living under Hitler's regime,?was?a fascist to sell books today.??? ? I don't take issue with examining Stein's actions during the occupation, but if they are not contextualized (as it seems they are not) and are characterized / framed as being duplicitously in favor of fascism (even a supporter), then I do take offense - and wonder how others cannot.? But then again, as noted, I have to see the book.? So far though, based on the hype around this book, it sounds like my perhaps-premptive?offense is founded.? I hope I'm wrong. ? Amy ? ********* Amy's Alias +?http://amyking.org/? ******** From: stephen russell To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 4:57 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past Stein, after all, had the money and status to remain ... tucked away ... safe. That's what I mean by saying ... if there are no words to indicate Stein's opposition to facism, then she, too, is a political coward. Poets are prone to read between the lines when it isn't necessary. --- On Thu, 10/20/11, stephen russell wrote: From: stephen russell Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, October 20, 2011, 4:16 PM I'll get to Stein ... first ... Go figure. Complicated motives. I still consider Poetry Language and Thought the most beautiful prose of the 20th century. Of course, the book was more a screed against modernity than a book about poetry (in the narrow sense). And yet, Heidegger's student, Hannah Arendt (Jewish/European), defends him to the end. At least in public. But much of Heidegger's actions disgusted her ... I remember D Chirot saying that thoughts, or words, that honored the blood, the soil, the Volk ... somehow lead to ethnic cleansing ... too simple. It was the Climate of opinion (to use Frued's phrase) that lead to ethnic cleansing. Richard Rorty said it best about Heidegger: To paraphrase ... perhaps the finest philosopher of the 20th century, and a political coward. Having said all of that, at some point, wouldn't it have served Stein well to be less cyrptic? ... & voice her words to someone in a manner than would have made her opinion concerning facism known. Are there any words ... to anyone, anywhere, that would make Stein seem less of a coward? In a court of law, Stein would have to take the stand. Otherwise, we only have her words, her manner of living. --- On Thu, 10/20/11, amy king wrote: From: amy king Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, October 20, 2011, 12:25 PM Me neither. ?Nor do I discount Stein's privilege as a wealthy individual and how that wealth influenced her aesthetics as well as her actions. ?But this "angle" reeks of sensationalism. ?Feels like I'm looking at an Enquirer headline, really. ?I haven't read the book, but what I've heard so far is a newly-painted picture of a sell-out Jew who not only sympathized but supported fascism? ?Come on. ?When one's life is in danger, one makes concessions and gestures for survival - even writing that sentence is reductive and obvious. ?So let's isolate and promote those acts as 'proof' that Stein was a fascist? ?A Nazi sell-out? ? The Picasso quote (don't even know if it's substantiated) could have been a reference to her dogged work ethics - but her politics? ? She was supporting the extermination of the Jews? ?Do we really buy the notion that Stein thought that since she supposedly wasn't practicing that she could, in occupied France, be operating under the delusion that she could shed her Jewish heritage and remain unscathed and help support the extermination to boot. ?Yes, that's what she thought folks. ?It's published, in print! ?Must be true. ?Ugh. ?? I'm sure the author is an honorable, papered / pedigreed person with the right college credentials. ?But what's that quote about good people doing bad things? ?I'll have to take a look at the book at some point and make a more substantial judgment then, but right now, I'm disgusted by the phony-baloney "new" portrait of the naive self-loathing Jew with her strange affinities I've been hearing about. ? ********* Amy's Alias +?http://amyking.org/? ******** From: "jforjames at aol.com"? ?That the great?modernists were flawed and complicated people (after what we know about Pound, Eliot, Stevens), doesn't really surprise me. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: amy king To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thu, Oct 20, 2011 10:21 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past How to Sell a Book: Sensationalism 101 - Gertrude Stein, Jewish & living with her lesbian lover in occupied France, found to be a Nazi sympathizer! James Lord said Picasso said it; Barbara Will repeated it - it must be truth, on sale now. ********* Amy's Alias +?http://amyking.org/? ******** From: "jforjames at aol.com" To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2011 5:39 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past http://arts.nationalpost.com/2011/10/18/tender-buttons-to-push-gertrude-stein%E2%80%99s-overlooked-political-past/ ? Barbara Will has a lot to tell us about Stein and France but Stein?s motives remain inexplicable. In 1934 James Laughlin, a young American poet, later to be a publisher, spent some time with Stein and Fa?. He listened in astonishment while the two of them discussed Hitler as a great man. ? Her old friend Picasso, in his day a Stalinist, was astonished by Stein?s views. ?Gertrude was a real fascist,? Picasso told James Lord, according to Lord?s book, Six Exceptional Women. ?She always had a weakness for Franco. For P?tain, too. Can you imagine it? An American, a Jewess, what?s more.? ? _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Thu Oct 20 18:52:56 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 15:52:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Tender_buttons_to_push=3A_Gertrude_Stein?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_overlooked_political_past?= In-Reply-To: <8CE5D91D8725EB5-F28-14DCA@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1319151176.25817.YahooMailClassic@web161909.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> there you go. Art is only worth so much. --- On Thu, 10/20/11, jforjames at aol.com wrote: From: jforjames at aol.com Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Thursday, October 20, 2011, 6:50 PM Certainly Stein is great and changed literature as we know it, but I wouldn't say that gives her (or anyone) a moral free pass.?(Nor am I'm going to judge her?one way or the other at this point.)? ? But let's say a hypothetical major writer in Stein's class?collaborated, informed and otherwise put peoples' lives in?peril, caused people to be tortured and?put to death, then it wouldn't matter to me me how great the art was, at some level I'd disdain that artist?for his/her acts. In short I don't think morally one should be wiling to trade art for lives. ? Incidentally a recent biography of the painter Morandi criticized his 'acts of omission' during the Mussolini's reign in Italy. Finnegan ? -----Original Message----- From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thu, Oct 20, 2011 5:15 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past What Bob said. ?? ? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 4:13 PM, bob grumman wrote: ? ? From: stephen russell Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 4:57 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry]Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past ? Stein, after all, had the money and status to remain ... tucked away ... safe. That's what I mean by saying ... if there are no words to indicate Stein's opposition to facism, then she, too, is a political coward. Poets are prone to read between the lines when it isn't necessary. ? What she did for literature during the Nazi Era was a hundred times greater than anything she could have done politically, even if she?d been politically correct, by current standards, which she was not.? ? --Bob ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Thu Oct 20 19:09:38 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 16:09:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Tender_buttons_to_push=3A_Gertrude_Stein?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_overlooked_political_past?= In-Reply-To: <1319151032.84593.YahooMailClassic@web161913.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1319152178.38182.YahooMailClassic@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> this (below) ended in spam ... it's a potential white flag ... i'm not that invested in the Stein controversy ... --- On Thu, 10/20/11, stephen russell wrote: From: stephen russell Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, October 20, 2011, 6:50 PM Well fuck it. Maybe I'm wrong. I can see where this is going ... I read Stein maybe 20 years ago. Was reading Faulkner at the time. I go for power, and thought everyone rather weak compared to the writer from Mississippi. I'm basically standing by an opinion I formed earlier ... maybe my sensibility has changed ... what the ... (next 4 letter word.) --- On Thu, 10/20/11, Halvard Johnson wrote: From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, October 20, 2011, 6:39 PM What Alex said. ?? ? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.orghttp://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 5:31 PM, Alexander Dickow wrote: Her one clever idea? Stein has more than one clever idea. I love her weird, contorted semantic incompatibilities; they demonstrate that meaning-making extends beyond logically consistent statements; that semantic incompatibility may be viewed as a form of meaning-making. Not nonsense: dis-sense, or something. I don't think that has anything to do with WCW's project, personally. Besides, Stein wrote better songs than WCW, which I find very bland, most of the time (flinching and waiting for the blows to fall). Amicalement,Alex ?www.alexdickow.net/blog/ ? les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet From: stephen russell To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past I don't read Lawrence anymore ... except for Classic Studies in American Lit. That, when I'm up for it, I'll never stop reading. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Stein always struck me as yet another one clever idea /writer ... rose ... is a rose ... is a rose ... it's subtle, but the charm wears off ... in my case, rather soon. W C Williams was hip to the the thing itself ... meaning language. I've always felt that Stein got more than her share of credit for her one clever idea. --- On Thu, 10/20/11, Halvard Johnson wrote: From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, October 20, 2011, 6:11 PM I'd much rather read Stein than Lawrence. Just saying. ?? ? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 4:22 PM, stephen russell wrote: Of course, I agree with Bob. D H Lawrence was exactly politically correct either. & far more interesting than Stein. --- On Thu, 10/20/11, Halvard Johnson wrote: From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, October 20, 2011, 5:15 PM What Bob said. ?? ? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 4:13 PM, bob grumman wrote: ? ? From: stephen russell Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 4:57 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry]Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past ? Stein, after all, had the money and status to remain ... tucked away ... safe. That's what I mean by saying ... if there are no words to indicate Stein's opposition to facism, then she, too, is a political coward. Poets are prone to read between the lines when it isn't necessary. ? What she did for literature during the Nazi Era was a hundred times greater than anything she could have done politically, even if she?d been politically correct, by current standards, which she was not.? ? --Bob ? ? _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 19:20:37 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 18:20:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Tender_buttons_to_push=3A_Gertrude_Stein?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_overlooked_political_past?= In-Reply-To: <8CE5D91D8725EB5-F28-14DCA@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> References: <1319144259.36772.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <86E4018D7BB349D5B44E7C551B92FDE9@BobHP> <8CE5D91D8725EB5-F28-14DCA@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: If you could save lives by giving up art (not just for yourself, but for everyone), how many lives would make it worth while for you? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 5:50 PM, wrote: > Certainly Stein is great and changed literature as we know it, but I > wouldn't say that gives her (or anyone) a moral free pass. (Nor am I'm going > to judge her one way or the other at this point.) > > But let's say a hypothetical major writer in Stein's class collaborated, > informed and otherwise put peoples' lives in peril, caused people to be > tortured and put to death, then it wouldn't matter to me me how great the > art was, at some level I'd disdain that artist for his/her acts. In short I > don't think morally one should be wiling to trade art for lives. > > Incidentally a recent biography of the painter Morandi criticized his 'acts > of omission' during the Mussolini's reign in Italy. > Finnegan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Halvard Johnson > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Thu, Oct 20, 2011 5:15 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s > overlooked political past > > What Bob said. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 4:13 PM, bob grumman wrote: > >> >> >> *From:* stephen russell >> *Sent:* Thursday, October 20, 2011 4:57 PM >> *To:* NewPoetry List >> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry]Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s >> overlooked political past >> >> Stein, after all, had the money and status to remain ... tucked away >> ... safe. That's what I mean by saying ... if there are no words to indicate >> Stein's opposition to facism, then she, too, is a political coward. Poets >> are prone to read between the lines when it isn't necessary. >> >> What she did for literature during the Nazi Era was a hundred times >> greater than anything she could have done politically, even if she?d been >> politically correct, by current standards, which she was not. >> >> --Bob >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Oct 20 20:34:42 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 20:34:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Tender_buttons_to_push=3A_Gertrude_Stein?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_overlooked_political_past?= In-Reply-To: References: <1319144259.36772.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><86E4018D7BB349D5B44E7C551B92FDE9@BobHP><8CE5D91D8725EB5-F28-14DCA@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CE5DA05BEB3EED-F28-15CD1@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> A Steinian sentence/question. Cost v. benefit analysis leads to bad decisions wherein real people are harmed. -----Original Message----- From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thu, Oct 20, 2011 7:26 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past If you could save lives by giving up art (not just for yourself, but for everyone), how many lives would make it worth while for you? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 5:50 PM, wrote: Certainly Stein is great and changed literature as we know it, but I wouldn't say that gives her (or anyone) a moral free pass. (Nor am I'm going to judge her one way or the other at this point.) But let's say a hypothetical major writer in Stein's class collaborated, informed and otherwise put peoples' lives in peril, caused people to be tortured and put to death, then it wouldn't matter to me me how great the art was, at some level I'd disdain that artist for his/her acts. In short I don't think morally one should be wiling to trade art for lives. Incidentally a recent biography of the painter Morandi criticized his 'acts of omission' during the Mussolini's reign in Italy. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thu, Oct 20, 2011 5:15 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past What Bob said. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 4:13 PM, bob grumman wrote: From: stephen russell Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 4:57 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry]Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past Stein, after all, had the money and status to remain ... tucked away ... safe. That's what I mean by saying ... if there are no words to indicate Stein's opposition to facism, then she, too, is a political coward. Poets are prone to read between the lines when it isn't necessary. What she did for literature during the Nazi Era was a hundred times greater than anything she could have done politically, even if she?d been politically correct, by current standards, which she was not. --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Oct 20 20:44:52 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 20:44:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Tender_buttons_to_push=3A_Gertrude_Stein?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_overlooked_political_past?= In-Reply-To: <1319149913.9589.YahooMailNeo@web160116.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1319149355.19000.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1319149913.9589.YahooMailNeo@web160116.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CE5DA1C799837D-F28-15DF6@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> Williams and Stein are very different of course, the apple and the orange. I'd favor Williams because he was fixed on and close to the human condition in the world we refer to the as the real. Stein's project seemed to be related to language and language as thinking. The subject was beside the point. I refer to her work as 'surrhetorical'. (A neologism, I hope I coined. Bob?) Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Alexander Dickow To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thu, Oct 20, 2011 6:32 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past Her one clever idea? Stein has more than one clever idea. I love her weird, contorted semantic incompatibilities; they demonstrate that meaning-making extends beyond logically consistent statements; that semantic incompatibility may be viewed as a form of meaning-making. Not nonsense: dis-sense, or something. I don't think that has anything to do with WCW's project, personally. Besides, Stein wrote better songs than WCW, which I find very bland, most of the time (flinching and waiting for the blows to fall). Amicalement, Alex www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet From: stephen russell To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past I don't read Lawrence anymore ... except for Classic Studies in American Lit. That, when I'm up for it, I'll never stop reading. Stein always struck me as yet another one clever idea /writer ... rose ... is a rose ... is a rose ... it's subtle, but the charm wears off ... in my case, rather soon. W C Williams was hip to the the thing itself ... meaning language. I've always felt that Stein got more than her share of credit for her one clever idea. --- On Thu, 10/20/11, Halvard Johnson wrote: From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, October 20, 2011, 6:11 PM I'd much rather read Stein than Lawrence. Just saying. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 4:22 PM, stephen russell wrote: Of course, I agree with Bob. D H Lawrence was exactly politically correct either. & far more interesting than Stein. --- On Thu, 10/20/11, Halvard Johnson wrote: From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, October 20, 2011, 5:15 PM What Bob said. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 4:13 PM, bob grumman wrote: From: stephen russell Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 4:57 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry]Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past Stein, after all, had the money and status to remain ... tucked away ... safe. That's what I mean by saying ... if there are no words to indicate Stein's opposition to facism, then she, too, is a political coward. Poets are prone to read between the lines when it isn't necessary. What she did for literature during the Nazi Era was a hundred times greater than anything she could have done politically, even if she?d been politically correct, by current standards, which she was not. --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carol.dorf at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 22:22:24 2011 From: carol.dorf at gmail.com (carol dorf) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 19:22:24 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?windows-1252?q?Tender_buttons_to_push=3A_Gertrude_?= =?windows-1252?q?Stein=92s_overlooked_political_past?= In-Reply-To: <8CE5DA1C799837D-F28-15DF6@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> References: <1319149355.19000.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1319149913.9589.YahooMailNeo@web160116.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8CE5DA1C799837D-F28-15DF6@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: In terms of the biographical -- there was an excellent exhibit on Gertrude Stein at the San Francisco Contemporary Jewish Museum. It put her in the context of other "independent" and Lesbian Jewish women of that era. It also had videos of some of the collaborations she did with Virgil Thompson. http://www.thecjm.org/index.php?option=com_ccevents&scope=exbt&task=detail&oid=9 One thing to keep in mind is that Stein was born in 1874; so by the mid-30s she was already 60 years old. Carol talkingwriting.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Thu Oct 20 23:06:18 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2011 22:06:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Tender_buttons_to_push=3A_Gertrude_Stein?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_overlooked_political_past?= In-Reply-To: <8CE5DA05BEB3EED-F28-15CD1@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> References: <1319144259.36772.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <86E4018D7BB349D5B44E7C551B92FDE9@BobHP> <8CE5D91D8725EB5-F28-14DCA@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> <8CE5DA05BEB3EED-F28-15CD1@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Of course, you didn't mean that *all* cost/benefit analyses lead to bad decisions that cost lives. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 7:34 PM, wrote: > A Steinian sentence/question. Cost v. benefit analysis leads to bad > decisions wherein real people are harmed. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Halvard Johnson > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Thu, Oct 20, 2011 7:26 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s > overlooked political past > > If you could save lives by giving up art (not just for yourself, but for > everyone), how many lives would make it worth while for you? > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 5:50 PM, wrote: > >> Certainly Stein is great and changed literature as we know it, but I >> wouldn't say that gives her (or anyone) a moral free pass. (Nor am I'm going >> to judge her one way or the other at this point.) >> >> But let's say a hypothetical major writer in Stein's class collaborated, >> informed and otherwise put peoples' lives in peril, caused people to be >> tortured and put to death, then it wouldn't matter to me me how great the >> art was, at some level I'd disdain that artist for his/her acts. In short I >> don't think morally one should be wiling to trade art for lives. >> >> Incidentally a recent biography of the painter Morandi criticized his >> 'acts of omission' during the Mussolini's reign in Italy. >> Finnegan >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Halvard Johnson >> To: NewPoetry List >> Sent: Thu, Oct 20, 2011 5:15 pm >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s >> overlooked political past >> >> What Bob said. >> >> >> Serving the tri-state area. >> >> Hal >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> >> halvard at gmail.com >> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >> http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >> >> Remains To Be Seen >> *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) >> ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) >> , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems >> *, *Mainly Black >> , *Obras P?blicas >> ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets >> ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones >> ; **Tango Bouquet >> ; **Theory of Harmony >> ; **Rapsodie espagnole >> ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway >> ; **The Sonnet Project >> ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter >> Journey ; **Eclipse >> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan >> ;* >> *Transparencies & Projections >> * >> >> >> >> >> On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 4:13 PM, bob grumman wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> *From:* stephen russell >>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 20, 2011 4:57 PM >>> *To:* NewPoetry List >>> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry]Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s >>> overlooked political past >>> >>> Stein, after all, had the money and status to remain ... tucked away >>> ... safe. That's what I mean by saying ... if there are no words to indicate >>> Stein's opposition to facism, then she, too, is a political coward. Poets >>> are prone to read between the lines when it isn't necessary. >>> >>> What she did for literature during the Nazi Era was a hundred times >>> greater than anything she could have done politically, even if she?d been >>> politically correct, by current standards, which she was not. >>> >>> --Bob >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Oct 21 06:26:01 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 06:26:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Tender_buttons_to_push=3A_Gertrude_Stein?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_overlooked_political_past?= In-Reply-To: <8CE5DA1C799837D-F28-15DF6@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> References: <1319149355.19000.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail .bf1.yahoo.com><1319149913.9589.YahooMailNeo@web160116.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8CE5DA1C799837D-F28-15DF6@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <98DF46DEAAEA49A4906B615193A910BB@BobHP> From: jforjames at aol.com Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 8:44 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry]Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past Williams and Stein are very different of course, the apple and the orange. I'd favor Williams because he was fixed on and close to the human condition in the world we refer to the as the real. Stein's project seemed to be related to language and language as thinking. The subject was beside the point. I refer to her work as 'surrhetorical'. (A neologism, I hope I coined. Bob?) Finnegan It?s a good one, Finnegan?and one that?s new to me. I?m not Gertrude?s greatest fan, but she certainly had more than one trick. It?s true that she did language poetry things where just about the only thing that counts is the use of language, but some of them deal ferociously with the real, as the line about the rose, which is pretty real. She was too close to the real, in my view, in her novels. But most American writers of her day were. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Oct 21 11:42:55 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 11:42:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Of Lamb Message-ID: <8CE5E1F3C519BAF-2260-2C31B@webmail-m130.sysops.aol.com> I saw an exhibit at Real Art Ways last night. A collaboration between poet Matthea Harvey and artist Amy Jean Porter called "Lamb" http://www.realartways.org/visualarts.htm Amy Jean Porter & Matthea Harvey Making 'Of Lamb' October 13, 2011 - December 11, 2011 The Making 'Of Lamb' is an exhibition of drawings by Amy Jean Porter, in collaboration with poet Matthea Harvey. Created out of an innovative process, Of Lamb is what Porter call "an irreverent and irresponsible retelling of the nursery rhyme, 'Mary had a little lamb'." Harvey randomly selected a biography of 19th century British thinker Charles Lamb and began a process of erasure, whiting out words on each page until she had the text of small poems. She sent the poems to Porter, who made drawings of each and sequenced them into a longer work. In the artists' version, Mary spends time in a madhouse, Lamb favors slippers and the two fall in love and contemplate having half-human half-sheep offspring. The book, Of Lamb includes 106 drawings and poems, is available from McSweeney's. Real Art Ways' exhibition will be of a selection of original drawings along side the whited-out source text. Porter and Harvey will do a reading of the poems during the reception. Of Lamb, the book.. http://store.mcsweeneys.net/index.cfm/fuseaction/catalog.detail/object_id/6c24f9c5-c414-4a6c-b07a-1ea76f1c5e32/OfLamb.cfm Artist's website... http://www.amyjeanporter.com/images/lamb/ Interview... http://artlog.com/posts/119-stranger-territories-reinterpreting-mary-s-lamb more gallery images... http://www.ppowgallery.com/exhibition.php?id=92 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Oct 21 12:51:38 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 12:51:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Todd Moore Message-ID: <8CE5E28D58527E5-166C-1DCFB@Webmail-d118.sysops.aol.com> http://www.kirksvilledailyexpress.com/community/blogs/readers-writer/x804699136/Poet-Author-Todd-Moore Moore didn't write about paths less travelled, swans on glass lakes, or spring's first blossom. That wasn't the world he was shown. I think Moore described his work best in this excerpt of his instructions for reading "Dead Reckoning": "I write poetry the way some people bet on roulette. I write poetry the way John Dillinger robbed banks. I do it compulsively, I do it quickly, I do it incessantly, I do it explosively because writing poetry means engaging in an act of unpredictable psychic aggression. When I write a poem I intend to assault you. I need to pull you into my long unforgiving nightmare war. And, make no doubt about it. My poetry is an assault on your person, your identity, your eyes, your skin. When you read one of my poems, you enter into a minefield that is not of your making." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Fri Oct 21 13:00:40 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 17:00:40 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Todd Moore In-Reply-To: <8CE5E28D58527E5-166C-1DCFB@Webmail-d118.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE5E28D58527E5-166C-1DCFB@Webmail-d118.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I love this quote. It made me find some poems of his on-line. Cool beans. you s To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu From: jforjames at aol.com Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 12:51:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Todd Moore http://www.kirksvilledailyexpress.com/community/blogs/readers-writer/x804699136/Poet-Author-Todd-Moore Moore didn't write about paths less travelled, swans on glass lakes, or spring's first blossom. That wasn't the world he was shown. I think Moore described his work best in this excerpt of his instructions for reading "Dead Reckoning": "I write poetry the way some people bet on roulette. I write poetry the way John Dillinger robbed banks. I do it compulsively, I do it quickly, I do it incessantly, I do it explosively because writing poetry means engaging in an act of unpredictable psychic aggression. When I write a poem I intend to assault you. I need to pull you into my long unforgiving nightmare war. And, make no doubt about it. My poetry is an assault on your person, your identity, your eyes, your skin. When you read one of my poems, you enter into a minefield that is not of your making." _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Fri Oct 21 14:14:14 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 13:14:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Joy Walsh is gone In-Reply-To: References: <8CE5E28D58527E5-166C-1DCFB@Webmail-d118.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4EA1B676.5020005@louisiana.edu> My friend from Buffalo--_our_ friend, as the Cosa Nostra reputedly put it--R.D. Pohl, one of the sharpest (one of the few) news-media voices for poetry I know of, sends me this sad note about a great, vibrant woman who was a generous participant in the Buffalo poetry scene for years. I knew her in the mid-70s to 1980 or so, when she was just beginning to edit her _Moody Street Irregulars_, a mag dedicated to Kerouac and the Beats. She was also associated, along with the irrepressible Robin Willoughby, with _Earth's Daughters_, a pithy feminist journal launched at about the same time. I was too tunnel-visioned to appreciate Joy properly at the time because her interests veered sharply off from my own. Only later, eavesdropping from afar, did I see her happily pursuing her own course, keeping it open, keeping it free, and then I learned to admire her, and now, it seems, I have to mourn her passing, as we all should--she was the real thing, an open life, a vivid being. I received Bob Pohl's note from the wonderful poet Gail Fischer as well--Gail, Bob, Joy, and I all took John Logan's workshop (a living-room-floor, jug-a'-hooch endeavor) probobaly around 1978 or 79. Gail reminds me that there was a class in which the topic was "How I Lost My Virginity," but my innate nobility of spirit forbids me from remembering anything about that. Still, this is a good time to salute that bunch of characters wherever they may be, and I do hope they get word that Joy, a real dharma bum, is off on the road for the last time. Here's Bob's note: Remembering Joy Walsh (1935-2011) October 21, 2011 - 8:03 AM |0 comments Joy Walsh, the Clarence Center-based poet who gained international recognition as the editor and publisher of a journal dedicated to the history and the cultural influence of Jack Kerouac and the Beat Generation of writers, died on October 9th following a brief illness. She was 76. Throughout the 1970's and 1980's, Walsh was a key contributor to the Buffalo area literary scene as a poet, editor, literary scholar and performer. She was an active member of the Niagara-Erie Writers, and taught a writing workshop at Attica Correctional Facility co-sponsored by N.E.W. in the mid-1980's. She joined the Earth's Daughters Collective in the late 1970's and became one of the co-editors of Earth's Daughters magazine---now the longest continuously published feminist literary magazine in North America---through the early 1990's. Walsh also worked for The Humanist magazine during the time it was based in Amherst, New York. She was best-known, however, for founding, editing, and publishing "Moody Street Irregulars" (subtitled "A Jack Kerouac Newsletter"), a journal dedicated to a wide range of writing about or inspired by the Beat Generation of writers in general, and Jack Kerouac's work in particular. From 1978 to 1992, she published 28 issues of the journal, which quickly won an international reputation and readership for its essays, commentaries, interviews and original poetry featuring such Beat Generation luminaries as William S. Burroughs and Carolyn Cassady (wife of Neal Cassady, the real-life model for "Dean Moriarty" in Kerouac's "On the Road"), as well as important scholarly contributions from poet Tom Clark, who went on to publish a biography of Kerouac in 1995. Michael Basinski, now Curator of The Poetry Collection at the University at Buffalo, met Walsh in Professor Marcus Klein's 20th Century American Literature course in his first semester of graduate school at UB. "She talked to me about an idea she had for a [Jack] Kerouac magazine and was I interested, and did I wish to work on it with her," he recalls, "I said yes." Basinski went on to co-edit the first few issues of Moody Street Irregulars with Walsh, who was also assisted by Ana Pine on several subsequent issues. What he remembers most about working with Walsh was her enormous enthusiasm for Kerouac and the project: "All along over the magazine's long life it was Joy Walsh endlessly committed to Kerouac---I think the great spirit of his writing---committed to his energy (less interested in criticism, or so to speak, 'figuring it out') more interested in the raw passion and energy that Kerouac could and would and still does generate. I left after a few issues but it was always all Joy---all energy for Jack Kerouac---a commitment, a melding in the energy that was [Kerouac's] writing." Walsh's Textile Bridge Press also published books by several prominent Western New York based writers and poets including Manny Fried, Marion Perry, Boria Sax and Ryki Zuckerman. Walsh was born Joy Ann Staley in East Liverpool, Ohio on May 3, 1935. Her family moved to Buffalo, where she was raised in the Langfield projects during the World War Two era and afterwards. She married businessman Thomas J. Walsh---the owner of Bison Truck Parts on Walden Avenue in Buffalo---in the 1960's and moved to Clarence Center, where the couple raised two sons. Walsh attended SUNY-Fredonia---at first as a music major---before becoming enthralled with literature in general and The Beats in particular. She completed her B.A. in English and earned her Master of Arts degree in the Humanities at UB, writing her master's thesis on critic and literary theorist Kenneth Burke. She was the author four collections of her own Beat-influenced poetry, "Locating Positions" (Backstreet Press, 1983), "Hymn to Prometheus Transistor" (Atticus Press, 1984), "The Absent are Always in the Wrong" (Water Row Press, 1985), and "Mary Magdalen Sings the Mass in Ordinary Time" (Alpha Beat Press, 1989). She was also the author of a critical study "Jack Kerouac: Statement in Brown" (Esprit critique series, Textile Bridge Press, 1984.) In 1983, Walsh was awarded a writer-in-residence grant from Just Buffalo Literary Center. Owing in part to her connection to the Beats, and to the post-Beat writing that she championed, her poems, essays, and reviews were published in magazines and journals throughout the United States, Canada, England, Europe, Australia, and Japan. She is survived by her husband, sons Thomas and Christopher and their families, including eight grandchildren. Former colleague Basinski remembers her as "full of wild crazy energy always," while Ryki Zuckerman, a friend and one of her co-editors at Earth's Daughters magazine, recalls Walsh as a non-conformist who "brought a sense of joie de vivre" to every project she was involved in. She was quite an exceptional woman, for her own or any time. The 40th anniversary issue of Earth's Daughters magazine (Earth's Daughters #80) will be dedicated to her. /--R.D. Pohl/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 15:08:15 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 21:08:15 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?windows-1252?q?Tender_buttons_to_push=3A_Gertrude_?= =?windows-1252?q?Stein=92s_overlooked_political_past?= In-Reply-To: <8CE5D91D8725EB5-F28-14DCA@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> References: <1319144259.36772.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <86E4018D7BB349D5B44E7C551B92FDE9@BobHP> <8CE5D91D8725EB5-F28-14DCA@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Yes, Morandi (1890-1964) is well know for his having lived far from the war with a sister and his mother. What critics who love Morandi say, is that he was able to reflect in his repetitive bottles, of which he changed only the somber hues, how he felt estranged from his times. The bed where he slept is very similar to Van Gogh's, depicted by the latter in bright colors, while a picture of Morandi's room is quite gloomy. Anyhow, I was introduced to Morandi through Serravalli, a critic who loved him, and I somehow appreciated his lack of tone, his distance, his absolute loneliness and silence. Although, even in this case, I feel close to Amy King, and to her critical voice. My father was sent unwillingly to the north of Germany, barely 18. And Morandi was at home painting bottles, you see, it does not make any sense. But then, what does? On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 12:50 AM, wrote: > Certainly Stein is great and changed literature as we know it, but I > wouldn't say that gives her (or anyone) a moral free pass. (Nor am I'm going > to judge her one way or the other at this point.) > > But let's say a hypothetical major writer in Stein's class collaborated, > informed and otherwise put peoples' lives in peril, caused people to be > tortured and put to death, then it wouldn't matter to me me how great the > art was, at some level I'd disdain that artist for his/her acts. In short I > don't think morally one should be wiling to trade art for lives. > > Incidentally a recent biography of the painter Morandi criticized his 'acts > of omission' during the Mussolini's reign in Italy. > Finnegan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Halvard Johnson > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Thu, Oct 20, 2011 5:15 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s > overlooked political past > > What Bob said. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 4:13 PM, bob grumman wrote: > >> >> >> *From:* stephen russell >> *Sent:* Thursday, October 20, 2011 4:57 PM >> *To:* NewPoetry List >> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry]Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s >> overlooked political past >> >> Stein, after all, had the money and status to remain ... tucked away >> ... safe. That's what I mean by saying ... if there are no words to indicate >> Stein's opposition to facism, then she, too, is a political coward. Poets >> are prone to read between the lines when it isn't necessary. >> >> What she did for literature during the Nazi Era was a hundred times >> greater than anything she could have done politically, even if she?d been >> politically correct, by current standards, which she was not. >> >> --Bob >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 15:16:01 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 21:16:01 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?windows-1252?q?Tender_buttons_to_push=3A_Gertrude_?= =?windows-1252?q?Stein=92s_overlooked_political_past?= In-Reply-To: <98DF46DEAAEA49A4906B615193A910BB@BobHP> References: <1319149913.9589.YahooMailNeo@web160116.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8CE5DA1C799837D-F28-15DF6@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> <98DF46DEAAEA49A4906B615193A910BB@BobHP> Message-ID: Yes, Stein has some excellent intuitions of thoughts that reside deep inside the human being, and is able to give them a voice and a form, she is a morphological phonologist of the soul, i.e. a soul mor-pho-nologist (look at this, I might beat James). Within this context, Bob's use of the term 'fierceness' seems to me well chosen. On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 12:26 PM, bob grumman wrote: > > > *From:* jforjames at aol.com > *Sent:* Thursday, October 20, 2011 8:44 PM > *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry]Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s > overlooked political past > > Williams and Stein are very different of course, the apple and the > orange. I'd favor Williams because he was fixed on and close to the human > condition in the world we refer to the as the real. > Stein's project seemed to be related to language and language as thinking. > The subject was beside the point. I refer to her work as 'surrhetorical'. > (A neologism, I hope I coined. Bob?) > Finnegan > > It?s a good one, Finnegan?and one that?s new to me. I?m not Gertrude?s > greatest fan, but she certainly had more than one trick. It?s true that she > did language poetry things where just about the only thing that counts is > the use of language, but some of them deal ferociously with the real, as the > line about the rose, which is pretty real. She was *too* close to the > real, in my view, in her novels. But most American writers of her day were. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Oct 21 16:20:41 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 16:20:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry's economic worth Message-ID: <8CE5E460A039980-C94-21114@webmail-d046.sysops.aol.com> He told reporters he thought anthropology wasn?t worth a student?s time (or the state?s money.) Anthropologists, at least, have the prospect of employment outside academia. God knows what he thinks of poets. ?I?m teaching an honors seminar on the letters of poets this semester, so I can imagine what the governor would make of my class,? Hamby, a notable poet in her own right, said Wednesday via e-mail. ?We started in ancient Greece and we are finishing up with the Beats.? Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/10/19/2462367/poetry-the-economic-engine.html#ixzz1bRvhylUu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Fri Oct 21 18:51:56 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 17:51:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry's economic worth In-Reply-To: <8CE5E460A039980-C94-21114@webmail-d046.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE5E460A039980-C94-21114@webmail-d046.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: We're way past the Beats. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 3:20 PM, wrote: > He told reporters he thought anthropology wasn?t worth a student?s time (or > the state?s money.) Anthropologists, at least, have the prospect of > employment outside academia. God knows what he thinks of poets. > > ?I?m teaching an honors seminar on the letters of poets this semester, so I > can imagine what the governor would make of my class,? Hamby, a notable poet > in her own right, said Wednesday via e-mail. ?We started in ancient Greece > and we are finishing up with the Beats.? > > Read more: > http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/10/19/2462367/poetry-the-economic-engine.html#ixzz1bRvhylUu > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Fri Oct 21 23:07:50 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Fri, 21 Oct 2011 23:07:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] New poem at the formal blog Message-ID: <1043ACB4-828F-480B-9111-8C2AAC9D75F2@mikesnider.org> http://mikesnider.org/formalblog/?p=1082 Cold Comfort The worst is each successive day?s the worst? If there?s a next time, I?ll try dying first. And if I first said that nine lives ago, And each successive life knew greater woe? I know the Second Law is no one?s friend? But still, it claims that there will come an end. www.mikesnider.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 03:53:31 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 09:53:31 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] New poem at the formal blog In-Reply-To: <1043ACB4-828F-480B-9111-8C2AAC9D75F2@mikesnider.org> References: <1043ACB4-828F-480B-9111-8C2AAC9D75F2@mikesnider.org> Message-ID: Cheer up, if I think about it, I feel worse... :-( On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 5:07 AM, Michael Snider wrote: > http://mikesnider.org/formalblog/?p=1082 > > Cold Comfort > > The worst is each successive day?s the worst? > If there?s a next time, I?ll try dying first. > And if I first said that nine lives ago, > And each successive life knew greater woe? > I know the Second Law is no one?s friend? > But still, it claims that there will come an end. > > www.mikesnider.org > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Oct 22 11:06:57 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 08:06:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Tender_buttons_to_push=3A_Gertrude_Stein?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_overlooked_political_past?= In-Reply-To: <1319149913.9589.YahooMailNeo@web160116.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1319296017.58744.YahooMailClassic@web161920.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Clever wasn't the correct word. She did, after all, anticipate lango poetics. But WC had such a wealth of material. The Asphodel poems. The collage ... kitchen magnate poems. The prose of American Grain, Kora in Hell ... I have no idea of her Semantic exercises. Haven't read enough of her poetry. Guess I was a bit unfair to Gertrude. She'll get over it. Most Dead White Americans do ... or do they...? --- On Thu, 10/20/11, Alexander Dickow wrote: From: Alexander Dickow Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, October 20, 2011, 6:31 PM Her one clever idea? Stein has more than one clever idea. I love her weird, contorted semantic incompatibilities; they demonstrate that meaning-making extends beyond logically consistent statements; that semantic incompatibility may be viewed as a form of meaning-making. Not nonsense: dis-sense, or something. I don't think that has anything to do with WCW's project, personally. Besides, Stein wrote better songs than WCW, which I find very bland, most of the time (flinching and waiting for the blows to fall). Amicalement, Alex ? www.alexdickow.net/blog/ ? les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet From: stephen russell To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past I don't read Lawrence anymore ... except for Classic Studies in American Lit. That, when I'm up for it, I'll never stop reading. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? Stein always struck me as yet another one clever idea /writer ... rose ... is a rose ... is a rose ... it's subtle, but the charm wears off ... in my case, rather soon. W C Williams was hip to the the thing itself ... meaning language. I've always felt that Stein got more than her share of credit for her one clever idea. --- On Thu, 10/20/11, Halvard Johnson wrote: From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, October 20, 2011, 6:11 PM I'd much rather read Stein than Lawrence. Just saying. ?? ? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 4:22 PM, stephen russell wrote: Of course, I agree with Bob. D H Lawrence was exactly politically correct either. & far more interesting than Stein. --- On Thu, 10/20/11, Halvard Johnson wrote: From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, October 20, 2011, 5:15 PM What Bob said. ?? ? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Thu, Oct 20, 2011 at 4:13 PM, bob grumman wrote: ? ? From: stephen russell Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 4:57 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry]Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past ? Stein, after all, had the money and status to remain ... tucked away ... safe. That's what I mean by saying ... if there are no words to indicate Stein's opposition to facism, then she, too, is a political coward. Poets are prone to read between the lines when it isn't necessary. ? What she did for literature during the Nazi Era was a hundred times greater than anything she could have done politically, even if she?d been politically correct, by current standards, which she was not.? ? --Bob ? ? _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Oct 22 11:17:34 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 08:17:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Tender_buttons_to_push=3A_Gertrude_Stein?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_overlooked_political_past?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319296654.63677.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ... the soul preceded by a 10 syllable adjective ... Anny, I think you've set a record. --- On Fri, 10/21/11, Anny Ballardini wrote: From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Friday, October 21, 2011, 3:16 PM Yes, Stein has some excellent intuitions of thoughts that reside deep inside the human being, and is able to give them a voice and a form, she is a morphological phonologist of the soul, i.e. a soul mor-pho-nologist (look at this, I might beat James). Within this context,? Bob's use of the term 'fierceness' seems to me well chosen. On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 12:26 PM, bob grumman wrote: ? ? From: jforjames at aol.com Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 8:44 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry]Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past ? Williams and Stein are very different of course, the apple and the orange. I'd favor Williams because he was fixed on and close to the human condition in the world we refer to the as the real. Stein's project seemed to be related to language and language as thinking. The subject was beside the point.? I refer to her work as 'surrhetorical'. (A neologism, I hope I coined. Bob?) Finnegan ? It?s a good one, Finnegan?and one that?s new to me.? I?m not Gertrude?s greatest fan, but she certainly had more than one trick.? It?s true that she did language poetry things where just about the only thing that counts is the use of language, but some of them deal ferociously with the real, as the line about the rose, which is pretty real.? She was too close to the real, in my view, in her novels.? But most American writers of her day were. ? --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 11:24:04 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 10:24:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Tender_buttons_to_push=3A_Gertrude_Stein?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_overlooked_political_past?= In-Reply-To: <1319296654.63677.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1319296654.63677.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Well, nine syllables, but not one adjective. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 10:17 AM, stephen russell < poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: > ... the soul preceded by a 10 syllable adjective ... Anny, I think you've > set a record. > > --- On *Fri, 10/21/11, Anny Ballardini * wrote: > > > From: Anny Ballardini > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s > overlooked political past > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Friday, October 21, 2011, 3:16 PM > > > Yes, Stein has some excellent intuitions of thoughts that reside deep > inside the human being, and is able to give them a voice and a form, she is > a morphological phonologist of the soul, i.e. a soul mor-pho-nologist (look > at this, I might beat James). Within this context, Bob's use of the term > 'fierceness' seems to me well chosen. > > On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 12:26 PM, bob grumman > > wrote: > > > > *From:* jforjames at aol.com > *Sent:* Thursday, October 20, 2011 8:44 PM > *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry]Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s > overlooked political past > > Williams and Stein are very different of course, the apple and the > orange. I'd favor Williams because he was fixed on and close to the human > condition in the world we refer to the as the real. > Stein's project seemed to be related to language and language as thinking. > The subject was beside the point. I refer to her work as 'surrhetorical'. > (A neologism, I hope I coined. Bob?) > Finnegan > > It?s a good one, Finnegan?and one that?s new to me. I?m not Gertrude?s > greatest fan, but she certainly had more than one trick. It?s true that she > did language poetry things where just about the only thing that counts is > the use of language, but some of them deal ferociously with the real, as the > line about the rose, which is pretty real. She was *too* close to the > real, in my view, in her novels. But most American writers of her day were. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Oct 22 11:28:02 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 08:28:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Tender_buttons_to_push=3A_Gertrude_Stein?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_overlooked_political_past?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319297282.22774.YahooMailClassic@web161910.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> you're always keeping score, and grading ... and you're always around when i'm around ... that means i can't cheat ... i'm dropping your class ... --- On Sat, 10/22/11, Halvard Johnson wrote: From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, October 22, 2011, 11:24 AM Well, nine syllables, but not one adjective. ?? ? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 10:17 AM, stephen russell wrote: ... the soul preceded by a 10 syllable adjective ... Anny, I think you've set a record. --- On Fri, 10/21/11, Anny Ballardini wrote: From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Friday, October 21, 2011, 3:16 PM Yes, Stein has some excellent intuitions of thoughts that reside deep inside the human being, and is able to give them a voice and a form, she is a morphological phonologist of the soul, i.e. a soul mor-pho-nologist (look at this, I might beat James). Within this context,? Bob's use of the term 'fierceness' seems to me well chosen. On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 12:26 PM, bob grumman wrote: ? ? From: jforjames at aol.com Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2011 8:44 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry]Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s overlooked political past ? Williams and Stein are very different of course, the apple and the orange. I'd favor Williams because he was fixed on and close to the human condition in the world we refer to the as the real. Stein's project seemed to be related to language and language as thinking. The subject was beside the point.? I refer to her work as 'surrhetorical'. (A neologism, I hope I coined. Bob?) Finnegan ? It?s a good one, Finnegan?and one that?s new to me.? I?m not Gertrude?s greatest fan, but she certainly had more than one trick.? It?s true that she did language poetry things where just about the only thing that counts is the use of language, but some of them deal ferociously with the real, as the line about the rose, which is pretty real.? She was too close to the real, in my view, in her novels.? But most American writers of her day were. ? --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Oct 22 11:39:02 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 08:39:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry's economic worth In-Reply-To: <8CE5E460A039980-C94-21114@webmail-d046.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1319297942.2480.YahooMailClassic@web161914.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I met Hamby. Had her sign at the Library of Congress while her husband read. I wish I had taken a class from Kirby while I was at Tally Ho. Prolific ... brilliant ... fun poet ... scholar ... Janet Burroway ... also brilliant.The 'Noles, however, will not take the ACC... again, in spite of having the best team. --- On Fri, 10/21/11, jforjames at aol.com wrote: From: jforjames at aol.com Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry's economic worth To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Friday, October 21, 2011, 4:20 PM He told reporters he thought anthropology wasn?t worth a student?s time (or the state?s money.) Anthropologists, at least, have the prospect of employment outside academia. God knows what he thinks of poets. ? ?I?m teaching an honors seminar on the letters of poets this semester, so I can imagine what the governor would make of my class,? Hamby, a notable poet in her own right, said Wednesday via e-mail. ?We started in ancient Greece and we are finishing up with the Beats.? ? Read more: http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/10/19/2462367/poetry-the-economic-engine.html#ixzz1bRvhylUu -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 11:41:48 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 10:41:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Tender_buttons_to_push=3A_Gertrude_Stein?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_overlooked_political_past?= In-Reply-To: <1319297282.22774.YahooMailClassic@web161910.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1319297282.22774.YahooMailClassic@web161910.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Keep up what you're doing and you'll wind up becoming a writer or worse. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 10:28 AM, stephen russell < poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: > you're always keeping score, and grading ... and you're always around when > i'm around ... that means i can't cheat ... i'm dropping your class ... > > > --- On *Sat, 10/22/11, Halvard Johnson * wrote: > > > From: Halvard Johnson > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s > overlooked political past > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Saturday, October 22, 2011, 11:24 AM > > > Well, nine syllables, but not one adjective. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 10:17 AM, stephen russell < > poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com > > wrote: > > ... the soul preceded by a 10 syllable adjective ... Anny, I think > you've set a record. > > --- On *Fri, 10/21/11, Anny Ballardini > >* wrote: > > > From: Anny Ballardini > > > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s > overlooked political past > To: "NewPoetry List" > > > Date: Friday, October 21, 2011, 3:16 PM > > > Yes, Stein has some excellent intuitions of thoughts that reside deep > inside the human being, and is able to give them a voice and a form, she is > a morphological phonologist of the soul, i.e. a soul mor-pho-nologist (look > at this, I might beat James). Within this context, Bob's use of the term > 'fierceness' seems to me well chosen. > > On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 12:26 PM, bob grumman > > wrote: > > > > *From:* jforjames at aol.com > *Sent:* Thursday, October 20, 2011 8:44 PM > *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry]Tender buttons to push: Gertrude Stein?s > overlooked political past > > Williams and Stein are very different of course, the apple and the > orange. I'd favor Williams because he was fixed on and close to the human > condition in the world we refer to the as the real. > Stein's project seemed to be related to language and language as thinking. > The subject was beside the point. I refer to her work as 'surrhetorical'. > (A neologism, I hope I coined. Bob?) > Finnegan > > It?s a good one, Finnegan?and one that?s new to me. I?m not Gertrude?s > greatest fan, but she certainly had more than one trick. It?s true that she > did language poetry things where just about the only thing that counts is > the use of language, but some of them deal ferociously with the real, as the > line about the rose, which is pretty real. She was *too* close to the > real, in my view, in her novels. But most American writers of her day were. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Oct 22 12:03:52 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 09:03:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] New poem at the formal blog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319299432.97041.YahooMailClassic@web161917.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ... wise, but he mentions entrophy ... i'm tempted to sit with the poem, count beats ... clinically diagnose the poem ... but that Hal guy is around ... the speaker, madly forlorn ... gently ... woefully ... weeps. Am I right? --- On Sat, 10/22/11, Anny Ballardini wrote: From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] New poem at the formal blog To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, October 22, 2011, 3:53 AM Cheer up, if I think about it, I feel worse... :-( On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 5:07 AM, Michael Snider wrote: http://mikesnider.org/formalblog/?p=1082 Cold Comfort The worst is each successive day?s the worst? If there?s a next time, I?ll try dying first. And if I first said that nine lives ago, And each successive life knew greater woe? I know the Second Law is no one?s friend? But still, it claims that there will come an end. www.mikesnider.org _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 12:18:49 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 11:18:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] New poem at the formal blog In-Reply-To: <1319299432.97041.YahooMailClassic@web161917.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1319299432.97041.YahooMailClassic@web161917.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Don't worry. I don't count. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 11:03 AM, stephen russell < poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: > ... wise, but he mentions entrophy ... i'm tempted to sit with the poem, > count beats ... clinically diagnose the poem ... but that Hal guy is around > ... the speaker, madly forlorn ... gently ... woefully ... weeps. Am I > right? > > --- On *Sat, 10/22/11, Anny Ballardini * wrote: > > > From: Anny Ballardini > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] New poem at the formal blog > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Saturday, October 22, 2011, 3:53 AM > > Cheer up, if I think about it, I feel worse... :-( > > On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 5:07 AM, Michael Snider > > wrote: > > http://mikesnider.org/formalblog/?p=1082 > > Cold Comfort > > The worst is each successive day?s the worst? > If there?s a next time, I?ll try dying first. > And if I first said that nine lives ago, > And each successive life knew greater woe? > I know the Second Law is no one?s friend? > But still, it claims that there will come an end. > > www.mikesnider.org > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 12:25:06 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 11:25:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fratres Message-ID: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1xzJ076Yjq-VKV65jHHzx0iduRjtj-QFM4yhdztKd0WY/edit?hl=en_US Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Sat Oct 22 12:41:31 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 12:41:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] New poem at the formal blog In-Reply-To: References: <1319299432.97041.YahooMailClassic@web161917.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3B9D94CE-2225-4034-9530-CECD96E2B369@mikesnider.org> Annie - making the little tangled thing cheered me up, and our bass player says he's set it to a 5/4 tune. He set the last one to a waltz, so we may be turning into a songwriting team. Of course, he only likes my dreary poems. Stephen, it's strict IP - not a single substitution, though the stresses in lines two and three are pretty light and quick, at least the way I read it. Nothing really deep in it, just a kind of tantrum over getting old. It's somehow happened that I'll be 59 in a few months. Weird. And Hal, I always count on you ;-) Jesus Christ, a smiley! Too much coffee... www.mikesnider.org On Oct 22, 2011, at 12:18, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Don't worry. I don't count. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; > Transparencies & Projections > > > > > On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 11:03 AM, stephen russell wrote: > ... wise, but he mentions entrophy ... i'm tempted to sit with the poem, count beats ... clinically diagnose the poem ... but that Hal guy is around ... the speaker, madly forlorn ... gently ... woefully ... weeps. Am I right? > > --- On Sat, 10/22/11, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > From: Anny Ballardini > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] New poem at the formal blog > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Saturday, October 22, 2011, 3:53 AM > > Cheer up, if I think about it, I feel worse... :-( > > On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 5:07 AM, Michael Snider wrote: > http://mikesnider.org/formalblog/?p=1082 > > Cold Comfort > > The worst is each successive day?s the worst? > If there?s a next time, I?ll try dying first. > And if I first said that nine lives ago, > And each successive life knew greater woe? > I know the Second Law is no one?s friend? > But still, it claims that there will come an end. > > > www.mikesnider.org > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Sat Oct 22 12:47:19 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 12:47:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience In-Reply-To: References: <1318877712.10490.YahooMailClassic@web161912.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8618BC75-84D7-483F-A6B0-45434B2E2B26@mikesnider.org> Patricia, thanks for all of this. I set up a Second Life account last week, though I haven't done anything but walk around a bit. Time and the many worlds ... www.mikesnider.org On Oct 17, 2011, at 15:27, Patricia F Anderson wrote: > Ah, well, good to question it, and it does reveal my bias. Lawrence Lessig had a great video a few years ago, which I can't find right now, that described what I mean. Basically, his idea was that historically people made their own music at home, on porches and in living rooms, in city parks and schools. Then publishers and copyright and formal media intervened, and we found that the typical person LISTENED to music, but no longer performed or created their own. His argument is that the remix/mashup culture has restored the balance of fostering personal creativity and sharing of creative works. > > Short video (~15min): > > Book: > > So, speaking purely for myself, I would rather see enormous quantities of poetry being written and shared and commented on all over the world, as part of a daily culture in which it is embedded as part of communication for everyone, rather than see poetry as the sole province of a restricted elite. Yes, I want to see and appreciate good poetry ? challenging poetry, creative poetry, innovative poetry, insightful poetry ? but I believe that a culture which appreciates all poetry (even if it is "bad poetry") is more likely to generate that renaissance. One of the most exciting poetry events I attended in Second Life was a duel. Two leading poetic voices in a roleplay community (set in Victorian England) challenged each other to a poetry duel, and did something very like the old Japanese renga competitions, but with only two. The audience cheered for the better performances at each turn, and donated funds to the preferred charity for the speaker they supported. How exciting! For myself, I am not a slam poet, and I often find poetry slams a little over dramatized, delivery rather unsubtle, however they engage a new audience and new readers with poetry. How could that be a bad thing? > > - Patricia > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 2:55 PM, stephen russell wrote: > " ...Culture these days is long-tail culture, niche culture, and that is a > GOOD THING ... > > ... not sure if I agree, but intruiging. > > --- On Mon, 10/17/11, Patricia F Anderson wrote: > > From: Patricia F Anderson > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience > To: "NewPoetry List" , patriciafanderson at gmail.com > Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 10:09 AM > [snip] > * Contemporary Social Context: > > Culture these days is long-tail culture, niche culture, and that is a > GOOD THING. I look forward to the death of the best sellers. The idea > of 'audience' is shifting in all areas of art and culture. I love > watching poetry leaving the cubby in a corner and embracing social > media, mashup/mixup culture, new media, collaborative creation, > creating new social environments for the enjoyment and sharing of > poetry. [snip] > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > Patricia Anderson / SL: Perplexity Peccable > pfa at umich.edu OR patriciafanderson at gmail.com > Emerging Technologies Librarian, Health Sciences Libraries, University of Michigan, 1135 East Catherine, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 > "Google can give you 1,000 answers to your question. A librarian will give you the right one." Anonymous. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Oct 22 13:07:19 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 10:07:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] New poem at the formal blog In-Reply-To: <3B9D94CE-2225-4034-9530-CECD96E2B369@mikesnider.org> Message-ID: <1319303239.61451.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I see .That explains the 1st line. I was thinking ... poet gets shunned ... is blue ... I'm in my early fifthies ... not rich/not famous ... still alive ... good enough, I suppose, on most days. --- On Sat, 10/22/11, Michael Snider wrote: From: Michael Snider Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] New poem at the formal blog To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, October 22, 2011, 12:41 PM Annie - making the little tangled thing cheered me up, and our bass player says he's set it to a 5/4 tune. He set the last one to a waltz, so we may be turning into a songwriting team. Of course, he only likes my dreary poems. Stephen, it's strict IP - not a single substitution, though the stresses in lines two and three are pretty light and quick, at least the way I read it. Nothing really deep in it, just a kind of tantrum over getting old. It's somehow happened that I'll be 59 in a few months. Weird. And Hal, I always count on you ;-)? Jesus Christ, a smiley! Too much coffee... www.mikesnider.org On Oct 22, 2011, at 12:18, Halvard Johnson wrote: Don't worry. I don't count. ?? ? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 11:03 AM, stephen russell wrote: ... wise, but he mentions entrophy ... i'm tempted to sit with the poem, count beats ... clinically diagnose the poem ... but that Hal guy is around ... the speaker, madly forlorn ... gently ... woefully ... weeps. Am I right? --- On Sat, 10/22/11, Anny Ballardini wrote: From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] New poem at the formal blog To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, October 22, 2011, 3:53 AM Cheer up, if I think about it, I feel worse... :-( On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 5:07 AM, Michael Snider wrote: http://mikesnider.org/formalblog/?p=1082 Cold Comfort The worst is each successive day?s the worst? If there?s a next time, I?ll try dying first. And if I first said that nine lives ago, And each successive life knew greater woe? I know the Second Law is no one?s friend? But still, it claims that there will come an end. www.mikesnider.org _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Oct 22 13:33:51 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 10:33:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] New poem at the formal blog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319304831.62694.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I don't either. It's boring. --- On Sat, 10/22/11, Halvard Johnson wrote: From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] New poem at the formal blog To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, October 22, 2011, 12:18 PM Don't worry. I don't count. ?? ? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 11:03 AM, stephen russell wrote: ... wise, but he mentions entrophy ... i'm tempted to sit with the poem, count beats ... clinically diagnose the poem ... but that Hal guy is around ... the speaker, madly forlorn ... gently ... woefully ... weeps. Am I right? --- On Sat, 10/22/11, Anny Ballardini wrote: From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] New poem at the formal blog To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, October 22, 2011, 3:53 AM Cheer up, if I think about it, I feel worse... :-( On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 5:07 AM, Michael Snider wrote: http://mikesnider.org/formalblog/?p=1082 Cold Comfort The worst is each successive day?s the worst? If there?s a next time, I?ll try dying first. And if I first said that nine lives ago, And each successive life knew greater woe? I know the Second Law is no one?s friend? But still, it claims that there will come an end. www.mikesnider.org _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 13:56:35 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 19:56:35 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Joy Walsh is gone In-Reply-To: <4EA1B676.5020005@louisiana.edu> References: <8CE5E28D58527E5-166C-1DCFB@Webmail-d118.sysops.aol.com> <4EA1B676.5020005@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: Sorry for you and for those who loved her. On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 8:14 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: > My friend from Buffalo--_our_ friend, as the Cosa Nostra reputedly put > it--R.D. Pohl, one of the sharpest (one of the few) news-media voices for > poetry I know of, sends me this sad note about a great, vibrant woman who > was a generous participant in the Buffalo poetry scene for years. I knew her > in the mid-70s to 1980 or so, when she was just beginning to edit her _Moody > Street Irregulars_, a mag dedicated to Kerouac and the Beats. She was also > associated, along with the irrepressible Robin Willoughby, with _Earth's > Daughters_, a pithy feminist journal launched at about the same time. I was > too tunnel-visioned to appreciate Joy properly at the time because her > interests veered sharply off from my own. Only later, eavesdropping from > afar, did I see her happily pursuing her own course, keeping it open, > keeping it free, and then I learned to admire her, and now, it seems, I have > to mourn her passing, as we all should--she was the real thing, an open > life, a vivid being. > > I received Bob Pohl's note from the wonderful poet Gail Fischer as > well--Gail, Bob, Joy, and I all took John Logan's workshop (a > living-room-floor, jug-a'-hooch endeavor) probobaly around 1978 or 79. Gail > reminds me that there was a class in which the topic was "How I Lost My > Virginity," but my innate nobility of spirit forbids me from remembering > anything about that. Still, this is a good time to salute that bunch of > characters wherever they may be, and I do hope they get word that Joy, a > real dharma bum, is off on the road for the last time. > > Here's Bob's note: > > > > Remembering Joy Walsh (1935-2011) > October 21, 2011 - 8:03 AM | 0 comments > > Joy Walsh, the Clarence Center-based poet who gained international > recognition as the editor and publisher of a journal dedicated to the > history and the cultural influence of Jack Kerouac and the Beat Generation > of writers, died on October 9th following a brief illness. She was 76. > > Throughout the 1970's and 1980's, Walsh was a key contributor to the > Buffalo area literary scene as a poet, editor, literary scholar and > performer. She was an active member of the Niagara-Erie Writers, and taught > a writing workshop at Attica Correctional Facility co-sponsored by N.E.W. in > the mid-1980?s. She joined the Earth?s Daughters Collective in the > late 1970?s and became one of the co-editors of Earth's Daughters > magazine?now the longest continuously published feminist literary magazine > in North America?through the early 1990?s. Walsh also worked for > The Humanist magazine during the time it was based in Amherst, New York. > > She was best-known, however, for founding, editing, and publishing ?Moody > Street Irregulars? (subtitled ?A Jack Kerouac Newsletter?), a journal > dedicated to a wide range of writing about or inspired by the > Beat Generation of writers in general, and Jack Kerouac?s work in > particular. > > From 1978 to 1992, she published 28 issues of the journal, which quickly > won an international reputation and readership for its essays, commentaries, > interviews and original poetry featuring such Beat Generation luminaries as > William S. Burroughs and Carolyn Cassady (wife of Neal Cassady, > the real-life model for ?Dean Moriarty? in Kerouac?s ?On the Road?), as well > as important scholarly contributions from poet Tom Clark, who went on to > publish a biography of Kerouac in 1995. > > Michael Basinski, now Curator of The Poetry Collection at the University at > Buffalo, met Walsh in Professor Marcus Klein?s 20th Century American > Literature course in his first semester of graduate school at UB. > ?She talked to me about an idea she had for a [Jack] Kerouac magazine and > was I interested, and did I wish to work on it with her,? he recalls, ?I > said yes.? > > Basinski went on to co-edit the first few issues of Moody Street Irregulars > with Walsh, who was also assisted by Ana Pine on several subsequent issues. > What he remembers most about working with Walsh was her enormous enthusiasm > for Kerouac and the project: ?All along over the magazine's long life it was > Joy Walsh endlessly committed to Kerouac?I think the great spirit of > his writing?committed to his energy (less interested in criticism, or so to > speak, 'figuring it out') more interested in the raw passion and energy that > Kerouac could and would and still does generate. I left after a few issues > but it was always all Joy?all energy for Jack Kerouac?a commitment, a > melding in the energy that was [Kerouac?s] writing.? > > Walsh?s Textile Bridge Press also published books by several prominent > Western New York based writers and poets including Manny Fried, Marion > Perry, Boria Sax and Ryki Zuckerman. > > Walsh was born Joy Ann Staley in East Liverpool, Ohio on May 3, 1935. Her > family moved to Buffalo, where she was raised in the Langfield projects > during the World War Two era and afterwards. She married businessman Thomas > J. Walsh?the owner of Bison Truck Parts on Walden Avenue in Buffalo?in the > 1960?s and moved to Clarence Center, where the couple raised two sons. > > Walsh attended SUNY-Fredonia?at first as a music major?before becoming > enthralled with literature in general and The Beats in particular. She > completed her B.A. in English and earned her Master of Arts degree in the > Humanities at UB, writing her master?s thesis on critic and literary > theorist Kenneth Burke. > > She was the author four collections of her own Beat-influenced poetry, > ?Locating Positions? (Backstreet Press, 1983), ?Hymn to Prometheus > Transistor? (Atticus Press, 1984), ?The Absent are Always in the Wrong" > (Water Row Press, 1985), and ?Mary Magdalen Sings the Mass in Ordinary Time" > (Alpha Beat Press, 1989). She was also the author of a critical study ?Jack > Kerouac: Statement in Brown" (Esprit critique series, Textile Bridge Press, > 1984.) > > In 1983, Walsh was awarded a writer-in-residence grant from Just > Buffalo Literary Center. Owing in part to her connection to the Beats, and > to the post-Beat writing that she championed, her poems, essays, and reviews > were published in magazines and journals throughout the United States, > Canada, England, Europe, Australia, and Japan. > > She is survived by her husband, sons Thomas and Christopher and their > families, including > eight grandchildren. > > Former colleague Basinski remembers her as ?full of wild crazy energy > always,? while Ryki Zuckerman, a friend and one of her co-editors at Earth?s > Daughters magazine, recalls Walsh as a non-conformist who "brought a sense > of joie de vivre" to every project she was involved in. > > She was quite an exceptional woman, for her own or any time. The 40th > anniversary issue of Earth?s Daughters magazine (Earth?s Daughters #80) will > be dedicated to her. > > *--R.D. Pohl* > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From seamascain at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 14:19:05 2011 From: seamascain at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9amas_Cain?=) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 13:19:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The age of alligator Message-ID: _____________________________________ Launching in conjunction with the IMRAM Festival in Dublin, Ireland // IT'S THE AGE OF ALLIGATOR AND OTHER POEMS by Collin Tholl // is published by The Red Jasper in Dublin : The.Red.Jasper at gmail.com _____________________________________ Through song, dream-like narrative, and contemplations on imagery both abstract and concrete, Collin Tholl's debut chapbook, ?It's the Age of Alligator and Other Poems,? urges a fundamental revaluation of our collective perception as well as the relationship we have with the forces governing over our everyday lives. The poems, though seemingly disparate, are bound by an oscillation between an earnest reflection on the universality of suffering and a detached, unaffiliated mysticism yearning to transcend such cynicism. Underlying Tholl's meditations and cries for liberation is a language punctuated with a childlike playfulness that is humorous yet assuredly sincere. This voice leads us to the periphery of some forgotten state of primal innocence ? a state in which enlightenment may not necessarily be attained, but is glimpsed at as a taunting possibility, just barely out of our reach. _____________________________________ For information about availability, e-mail The.Red.Jasper at gmail.com _____________________________________ From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 14:41:48 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 20:41:48 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Amazon the publisher Message-ID: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/17/technology/amazon-rewrites-the-rules-of-book-publishing.html?_r=1 forwarding from another list. -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mheffer at uark.edu Sat Oct 22 14:55:22 2011 From: mheffer at uark.edu (mheffer) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 13:55:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein Message-ID: <20111022135522.Horde.1ty_E09O9e1OoxGafl31p_A@uamail.uark.edu> Whenever I go to P?re Lachaise, I usually pause at the grave of Gertrude Stein and recite these lines from ?Sacred Emily,? which I have on a piece of paper in my wallet: How do you do I forgive you everything and there is nothing to forgive. Never the less. Leave it to me. From patriciafanderson at gmail.com Sat Oct 22 17:57:50 2011 From: patriciafanderson at gmail.com (Patricia F Anderson) Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 17:57:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small audience In-Reply-To: <8618BC75-84D7-483F-A6B0-45434B2E2B26@mikesnider.org> References: <1318877712.10490.YahooMailClassic@web161912.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8618BC75-84D7-483F-A6B0-45434B2E2B26@mikesnider.org> Message-ID: Good luck! In Second Life I am known as Perplexity Peccable. You can see some of the groups I belong to in my profile. My computer is unhappy trying to log into SL these days, or I would say send me a message & friend me. Hopefully we'll meet at some point! - Patricia, a.k.a. "Lexi" On Sat, Oct 22, 2011 at 12:47 PM, Michael Snider wrote: > Patricia, thanks for all of this. I set up a Second Life account last > week, though I haven't done anything but walk around a bit. Time and the > many worlds ... > > www.mikesnider.org > > On Oct 17, 2011, at 15:27, Patricia F Anderson < > patriciafanderson at gmail.com> wrote: > > Ah, well, good to question it, and it does reveal my bias. Lawrence Lessig > had a great video a few years ago, which I can't find right now, that > described what I mean. Basically, his idea was that historically people made > their own music at home, on porches and in living rooms, in city parks and > schools. Then publishers and copyright and formal media intervened, and we > found that the typical person LISTENED to music, but no longer performed or > created their own. His argument is that the remix/mashup culture has > restored the balance of fostering personal creativity and sharing of > creative works. > > Short video (~15min): > > Book: > > So, speaking purely for myself, I would rather see enormous quantities of > poetry being written and shared and commented on all over the world, as part > of a daily culture in which it is embedded as part of communication for > everyone, rather than see poetry as the sole province of a restricted elite. > Yes, I want to see and appreciate good poetry ? challenging poetry, creative > poetry, innovative poetry, insightful poetry ? but I believe that a culture > which appreciates all poetry (even if it is "bad poetry") is more likely to > generate that renaissance. One of the most exciting poetry events I attended > in Second Life was a duel. Two leading poetic voices in a roleplay community > (set in Victorian England) challenged each other to a poetry duel, and did > something very like the old Japanese renga competitions, but with only two. > The audience cheered for the better performances at each turn, and donated > funds to the preferred charity for the speaker they supported. How exciting! > For myself, I am not a slam poet, and I often find poetry slams a little > over dramatized, delivery rather unsubtle, however they engage a new > audience and new readers with poetry. How could that be a bad thing? > > - Patricia > > > On Mon, Oct 17, 2011 at 2:55 PM, stephen russell < > poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: > >> " ...Culture these days is long-tail culture, niche culture, and that is a >> GOOD THING ... >> >> ... not sure if I agree, but intruiging. >> >> --- On *Mon, 10/17/11, Patricia F Anderson *wrote: >> >> >> From: Patricia F Anderson >> >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet asks for evidence that poetry has small >> audience >> To: "NewPoetry List" , >> patriciafanderson at gmail.com >> Date: Monday, October 17, 2011, 10:09 AM >> [snip] >> * Contemporary Social Context: >> >> Culture these days is long-tail culture, niche culture, and that is a >> GOOD THING. I look forward to the death of the best sellers. The idea >> of 'audience' is shifting in all areas of art and culture. I love >> watching poetry leaving the cubby in a corner and embracing social >> media, mashup/mixup culture, new media, collaborative creation, >> creating new social environments for the enjoyment and sharing of >> poetry. [snip] >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Patricia Anderson / SL: Perplexity Peccable > pfa at umich.edu OR patriciafanderson at gmail.com > Emerging Technologies Librarian, Health Sciences Libraries, University of > Michigan, 1135 East Catherine, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 > "Google can give you 1,000 answers to your question. A librarian will give > you the right one." Anonymous. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Patricia Anderson / SL: Perplexity Peccable pfa at umich.edu OR patriciafanderson at gmail.com Emerging Technologies Librarian, Health Sciences Libraries, University of Michigan, 1135 East Catherine, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 "Google can give you 1,000 answers to your question. A librarian will give you the right one." Anonymous. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From obodooha at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 04:05:08 2011 From: obodooha at gmail.com (Obododimma Oha) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 01:05:08 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Crude Business of Oil Message-ID: "In this crude business of oil, everyone is welcome to deal. If you are a carpenter, no problem: there may be the need in the business to nail some people, or at least their coffins. If you are a hunter, very good: there will surely be some game to be hunted down and shot. The business is the crude way; the crude way is the business." Read the full text: http://x-pensiverrors.blogspot.com/2011/10/crude-business-of-oil.html -- *Obododimma Oha* http://udude.wordpress.com/ (*Associate Professor of Cultural Semiotics & Stylistics*) Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & *Fellow*, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604; +234 808 264 8060. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Oct 23 13:34:50 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 13:34:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Message-ID: <8CE5FC1335C17C4-B08-210CC@webmail-d153.sysops.aol.com> >From A Broken Thing: Poets On the Line (U. ofIowa Press, 2011), Gabriel Gudding?s ?The Line as Fetish and Fascist Reliquary?: The line is not a feature of poetry. The line is basically a disciplinary fiction, a fantasy oftechnique, an imaginary feature upon which to render pronouncements andleverage arbitrary distinctions for the purpose of acquiring or wielding socialand disciplinary power. The history of the line, as something ostensibly worthmaking distinctions about, is the history of poetry both as a fetishizedcultural commodity and, since the modernist moment, as part of a broader systemof belief that has helped lead to the disenchantment of everyday cultural lifein an advanced industrial world. The history of the line, then, is, in itslatest iteration, in great part a holdover from the history of the right-wingmodernist fetish of form, which marked the removal of poetry fully from theoffice of humility. So the line is, in one sense, a gendered and fascistreliquary containing the careers of Pound, Eliot, Olson, William Logan, LangPo,and the dismal tantrums of the neoformalists?groups and personalities definedby the genre of conviction and pronouncement. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Sun Oct 23 13:59:56 2011 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 10:59:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line (Dickow's rant) In-Reply-To: <8CE5FC1335C17C4-B08-210CC@webmail-d153.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE5FC1335C17C4-B08-210CC@webmail-d153.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1319392796.50337.YahooMailNeo@web160116.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> As much as I like Gabe and his work, he's trying to hard to be provocative, and this is falsehood. Line breaks have lots of observable stylistic effects. Momentary suspension of continuity can underline indeterminate or ambiguous meaning: And dropping to the ground... Take it from me... Take a look at my nice backpack... Or effects of exemplification: Go straight for a mile and turn left at the stop sign. Where Gabe is correct is that the line-break has unfortunate institutional effects linked to a history of social distinction and canonicity. Breaking a text into lines immediately suggests, to the uninformed, a difficult language and an uncomfortable reading experience (principally because no-one learns to read lines anymore in school). Offer an undergrad or highschool student, nay, just about anyone, a choice between a book in "prose" or in "lines"; he'll pick the former every time, no matter what the nature of the works in question. Don Juan can be read like any old novel; its line breaks say nothing about the work's difficulty, nor whether it demands extensive or intensive reading; that's a socially created illusion, and an unfortunate one. In this sense, Gabe is right to feel that they are tainted by an elitist attitude toward the literary object, and have negative effects. Not all of us are willing to sacrifice their stylistic effects for the sake of a contingent historical conjuncture in people's modes of and attitudes toward reading. Let the literary and academic fashionistas worry about what's "really" getting read (very little, so why bother trying to jump on the illusory bandwagon?). Personally, I'm sick of the faux-poetic-novel ? la A. Carson/Fourcade/etc./etc. Too fashionable. Amicalement, Alex ? www.alexdickow.net/blog/ ? les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ________________________________ From: "jforjames at aol.com" To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 10:34 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line From ?A Broken Thing: Poets On the Line (U. of Iowa Press, 2011), Gabriel Gudding?s ?The Line as Fetish and Fascist Reliquary?: ? The line is not a feature of poetry. ? The line is basically a disciplinary fiction, a fantasy of technique, an imaginary feature upon which to render pronouncements and leverage arbitrary distinctions for the purpose of acquiring or wielding social and disciplinary power. ? The history of the line, as something ostensibly worth making distinctions about, is the history of poetry both as a fetishized cultural commodity and, since the modernist moment, as part of a broader system of belief that has helped lead to the disenchantment of everyday cultural life in an advanced industrial world. The history of the line, then, is, in its latest iteration, in great part a holdover from the history of the right-wing modernist fetish of form, which marked the removal of poetry fully from the office of humility. ? So the line is, in one sense, a gendered and fascist reliquary containing the careers of Pound, Eliot, Olson, William Logan, LangPo, and the dismal tantrums of the neoformalists?groups and personalities defined by the genre of conviction and pronouncement. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From htthinc at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 14:26:53 2011 From: htthinc at gmail.com (Paul Howell) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 14:26:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry's economic worth In-Reply-To: <8CE5E460A039980-C94-21114@webmail-d046.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE5E460A039980-C94-21114@webmail-d046.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Might as well ask: what's the economic worth of justice? On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 4:20 PM, wrote: > He told reporters he thought anthropology wasn?t worth a student?s time (or > the state?s money.) Anthropologists, at least, have the prospect of > employment outside academia. God knows what he thinks of poets. > > ?I?m teaching an honors seminar on the letters of poets this semester, so I > can imagine what the governor would make of my class,? Hamby, a notable poet > in her own right, said Wednesday via e-mail. ?We started in ancient Greece > and we are finishing up with the Beats.? > > Read more: > http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/10/19/2462367/poetry-the-economic-engine.html#ixzz1bRvhylUu > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 16:33:21 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 13:33:21 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line (Dickow's rant) In-Reply-To: <1319392796.50337.YahooMailNeo@web160116.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <8CE5FC1335C17C4-B08-210CC@webmail-d153.sysops.aol.com> <1319392796.50337.YahooMailNeo@web160116.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My thoughts too, more or less. But, I'd have to read the book (which I likely won't) before I could understand whether he's writing against the line or against a gendered or politically determined break (whatever that looks/sounds like), the break in some cases being determined by strict meter. Also, Gabe's a better writer than "The history of the line, then, is, in its latest iteration, in great part a holdover . . . " which has the jerky rhythm of break dancing. - Jim On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 10:59 AM, Alexander Dickow wrote: > As much as I like Gabe and his work, he's trying to hard to be provocative, > and this is falsehood. Line breaks have lots of observable stylistic > effects. Momentary suspension of continuity can underline indeterminate or > ambiguous meaning: > And dropping > to the ground... > > Take it from > me... > > Take a look at my nice > backpack... > > Or effects of exemplification: > Go straight for a mile and > turn left at the stop > sign. > Where Gabe is correct is that the line-break has unfortunate institutional > effects linked to a history of social distinction and canonicity. Breaking a > text into lines immediately suggests, to the uninformed, a difficult > language and an uncomfortable reading experience (principally because no-one > learns to read lines anymore in school). Offer an undergrad or highschool > student, nay, just about anyone, a choice between a book in "prose" or in > "lines"; he'll pick the former every time, no matter what the nature of the > works in question. Don Juan can be read like any old novel; its line breaks > say nothing about the work's difficulty, nor whether it demands extensive or > intensive reading; that's a socially created illusion, and an unfortunate > one. In this sense, Gabe is right to feel that they are tainted by an > elitist attitude toward the literary object, and have negative effects. Not > all of us are willing to sacrifice their stylistic effects for the sake of a > contingent historical conjuncture in people's modes of and attitudes toward > reading. Let the literary and academic fashionistas worry about what's > "really" getting read (very little, so why bother trying to jump on the > illusory bandwagon?). Personally, I'm sick of the faux-poetic-novel ? la A. > Carson/Fourcade/etc./etc. Too fashionable. > Amicalement, > Alex > > www.alexdickow.net/blog/ > > les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin > merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet > > ------------------------------ > *From:* "jforjames at aol.com" > *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > *Sent:* Sunday, October 23, 2011 10:34 AM > *Subject:* [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > From *A Broken Thing: Poets On the Line *(U. of Iowa Press, 2011), > Gabriel Gudding?s ?The Line as Fetish and Fascist Reliquary?: > > The line is not a feature of poetry. > > The line is basically a disciplinary fiction, a fantasy of technique, an > imaginary feature upon which to render pronouncements and leverage arbitrary > distinctions for the purpose of acquiring or wielding social and > disciplinary power. > > The history of the line, as something ostensibly worth making distinctions > about, is the history of poetry both as a fetishized cultural commodity and, > since the modernist moment, as part of a broader system of belief that has > helped lead to the disenchantment of everyday cultural life in an advanced > industrial world. The history of the line, then, is, in its latest > iteration, in great part a holdover from the history of the right-wing > modernist fetish of form, which marked the removal of poetry fully from the > office of humility. > > So the line is, in one sense, a gendered and fascist reliquary containing > the careers of Pound, Eliot, Olson, William Logan, LangPo, and the dismal > tantrums of the neoformalists?groups and personalities defined by the genre > of conviction and pronouncement. > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 16:46:58 2011 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 16:46:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <8CE5FC1335C17C4-B08-210CC@webmail-d153.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE5FC1335C17C4-B08-210CC@webmail-d153.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: This is just so much nonsense. I like some of what Gabe Gudding has written. He's a very, very smart guy, highly intelligent, the kind of provocateur contemporary poetry needs more of. But here, he's trying too hard. If you want to discuss the poetic line, fine. But to pretend that the line itself is some kind of a holdover from certain kinds of fascist Modernism is not only silly, but also a bit short-sighted. Of course, I associate the line with music, so maybe I'm just seeing the line in a completely different way. --Jeff Newberry On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 1:34 PM, wrote: > From *A Broken Thing: Poets On the Line *(U. of Iowa Press, 2011), > Gabriel Gudding?s ?The Line as Fetish and Fascist Reliquary?:**** > ** ** > The line is not a feature of poetry. **** > ** ** > The line is basically a disciplinary fiction, a fantasy of technique, an > imaginary feature upon which to render pronouncements and leverage arbitrary > distinctions for the purpose of acquiring or wielding social and > disciplinary power. **** > ** ** > The history of the line, as something ostensibly worth making distinctions > about, is the history of poetry both as a fetishized cultural commodity and, > since the modernist moment, as part of a broader system of belief that has > helped lead to the disenchantment of everyday cultural life in an advanced > industrial world. The history of the line, then, is, in its latest > iteration, in great part a holdover from the history of the right-wing > modernist fetish of form, which marked the removal of poetry fully from the > office of humility.**** > ** ** > So the line is, in one sense, a gendered and fascist reliquary containing > the careers of Pound, Eliot, Olson, William Logan, LangPo, and the dismal > tantrums of the neoformalists?groups and personalities defined by the genre > of conviction and pronouncement.**** > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and lived syncopation. ?Yusef Komunyakaa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From almaginnes at aol.com Sun Oct 23 17:00:50 2011 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 17:00:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: References: <8CE5FC1335C17C4-B08-210CC@webmail-d153.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CE5FDDFAAA266C-8D0-4A7D3@Webmail-d102.sysops.aol.com> Who knew that Chaucer, Shakespeare, Shelley and Donne were facist Modernists? But then I skipped a lot of classes in college. I could have missed something. -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Newberry To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:47 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line This is just so much nonsense. I like some of what Gabe Gudding has written. He's a very, very smart guy, highly intelligent, the kind of provocateur contemporary poetry needs more of. But here, he's trying too hard. If you want to discuss the poetic line, fine. But to pretend that the line itself is some kind of a holdover from certain kinds of fascist Modernism is not only silly, but also a bit short-sighted. Of course, I associate the line with music, so maybe I'm just seeing the line in a completely different way. --Jeff Newberry On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 1:34 PM, wrote: >From A Broken Thing: Poets On the Line (U. ofIowa Press, 2011), Gabriel Gudding?s ?The Line as Fetish and Fascist Reliquary?: The line is not a feature of poetry. The line is basically a disciplinary fiction, a fantasy oftechnique, an imaginary feature upon which to render pronouncements andleverage arbitrary distinctions for the purpose of acquiring or wielding socialand disciplinary power. The history of the line, as something ostensibly worthmaking distinctions about, is the history of poetry both as a fetishizedcultural commodity and, since the modernist moment, as part of a broader systemof belief that has helped lead to the disenchantment of everyday cultural lifein an advanced industrial world. The history of the line, then, is, in itslatest iteration, in great part a holdover from the history of the right-wingmodernist fetish of form, which marked the removal of poetry fully from theoffice of humility. So the line is, in one sense, a gendered and fascistreliquary containing the careers of Pound, Eliot, Olson, William Logan, LangPo,and the dismal tantrums of the neoformalists?groups and personalities definedby the genre of conviction and pronouncement. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres tometrics embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and lived syncopation. ?YusefKomunyakaa _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Oct 23 17:47:54 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 17:47:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line (Dickow's rant) In-Reply-To: References: <8CE5FC1335C17C4-B08-210CC@webmail-d153.sysops.aol.com><1319392796.50337.YahooMailNeo@web160116.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CE5FE48DAEE982-1C8C-55616@webmail-d180.sysops.aol.com> The book, by the way, is new and contains about 50 contemporary poets each giving their short (brief essay) takes on what "the line" means in poetry. -----Original Message----- From: James Cervantes To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sun, Oct 23, 2011 4:33 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line (Dickow's rant) My thoughts too, more or less. But, I'd have to read the book (which I likely won't) before I could understand whether he's writing against the line or against a gendered or politically determined break (whatever that looks/sounds like), the break in some cases being determined by strict meter. Also, Gabe's a better writer than "The history of the line, then, is, in its latest iteration, in great part a holdover . . . " which has the jerky rhythm of break dancing. - Jim On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 10:59 AM, Alexander Dickow wrote: As much as I like Gabe and his work, he's trying to hard to be provocative, and this is falsehood. Line breaks have lots of observable stylistic effects. Momentary suspension of continuity can underline indeterminate or ambiguous meaning: And dropping to the ground... Take it from me... Take a look at my nice backpack... Or effects of exemplification: Go straight for a mile and turn left at the stop sign. Where Gabe is correct is that the line-break has unfortunate institutional effects linked to a history of social distinction and canonicity. Breaking a text into lines immediately suggests, to the uninformed, a difficult language and an uncomfortable reading experience (principally because no-one learns to read lines anymore in school). Offer an undergrad or highschool student, nay, just about anyone, a choice between a book in "prose" or in "lines"; he'll pick the former every time, no matter what the nature of the works in question. Don Juan can be read like any old novel; its line breaks say nothing about the work's difficulty, nor whether it demands extensive or intensive reading; that's a socially created illusion, and an unfortunate one. In this sense, Gabe is right to feel that they are tainted by an elitist attitude toward the literary object, and have negative effects. Not all of us are willing to sacrifice their stylistic effects for the sake of a contingent historical conjuncture in people's modes of and attitudes toward reading. Let the literary and academic fashionistas worry about what's "really" getting read (very little, so why bother trying to jump on the illusory bandwagon?). Personally, I'm sick of the faux-poetic-novel ? la A. Carson/Fourcade/etc./etc. Too fashionable. Amicalement, Alex www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet From: "jforjames at aol.com" To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 10:34 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >From A Broken Thing: Poets On the Line (U. of Iowa Press, 2011), Gabriel Gudding?s ?The Line as Fetish and Fascist Reliquary?: The line is not a feature of poetry. The line is basically a disciplinary fiction, a fantasy of technique, an imaginary feature upon which to render pronouncements and leverage arbitrary distinctions for the purpose of acquiring or wielding social and disciplinary power. The history of the line, as something ostensibly worth making distinctions about, is the history of poetry both as a fetishized cultural commodity and, since the modernist moment, as part of a broader system of belief that has helped lead to the disenchantment of everyday cultural life in an advanced industrial world. The history of the line, then, is, in its latest iteration, in great part a holdover from the history of the right-wing modernist fetish of form, which marked the removal of poetry fully from the office of humility. So the line is, in one sense, a gendered and fascist reliquary containing the careers of Pound, Eliot, Olson, William Logan, LangPo, and the dismal tantrums of the neoformalists?groups and personalities defined by the genre of conviction and pronouncement. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Oct 23 18:01:58 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 18:01:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <8CE5FDDFAAA266C-8D0-4A7D3@Webmail-d102.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE5FC1335C17C4-B08-210CC@webmail-d153.sysops.aol.com> <8CE5FDDFAAA266C-8D0-4A7D3@Webmail-d102.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CE5FE684E247C7-1C8C-5593D@webmail-d180.sysops.aol.com> I think Guddiing's addressing 'the line' from modernism forward...before that, by and large, rhyme and meter defined the line. I don't really get the political/cultural critique Gudding's asserts, but I do believe the poetics of the line is mostly a 'grasping at straws'. There is much mystification and arbitrariness involved in most of notions related to the line. Certain short-lined poems, because of their minimal nature, seem to work better with particular line choices over other options, but once the lines reaches 6 or more words all bets are off. The line in longer-limbed free-verse poems is more of personal aesthetic consideration than something one can mark as wrong/right, better/worse. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: almaginnes To: new-poetry Sent: Sun, Oct 23, 2011 5:01 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Who knew that Chaucer, Shakespeare, Shelley and Donne were facist Modernists? But then I skipped a lot of classes in college. I could have missed something. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Oct 23 18:20:24 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 18:20:24 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Message-ID: <5264842.1319408424746.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 18:43:24 2011 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 18:43:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <5264842.1319408424746.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <5264842.1319408424746.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: I agree. I think, though, that some poets are more interested in how a poem looks on a page than what it sounds like when read aloud. For me, the former is nowhere near as important as the latter. That's a bone of contention, of course: is poetry a spoken/heard medium or a seen/read medium? Or both? I think it's both, but I prefer sound over look. Good point about prose poetry. Best, Jeff Newberry On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 6:20 PM, wrote: > What can one possibly associate it with other than music? > > It's possible that Gabe is parodying a certain kind of academic rhetoric. > God, I hope so. But he is given to strange notions at times. This one is > simply bullshit. > > No one's stopping him from writing prose poetry. There's been a lot of it > going around for the past couple of hundred years. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Newberry ** > Sent: Oct 23, 2011 4:46 PM > To: NewPoetry List ** > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > This is just so much nonsense. I like some of what Gabe Gudding has > written. He's a very, very smart guy, highly intelligent, the kind of > provocateur contemporary poetry needs more of. But here, he's trying too > hard. If you want to discuss the poetic line, fine. But to pretend that the > line itself is some kind of a holdover from certain kinds of fascist > Modernism is not only silly, but also a bit short-sighted. > > Of course, I associate the line with music, so maybe I'm just seeing the > line in a completely different way. > > --Jeff Newberry > > On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 1:34 PM, wrote: > >> From *A Broken Thing: Poets On the Line *(U. of Iowa Press, 2011), >> Gabriel Gudding?s ?The Line as Fetish and Fascist Reliquary?:**** >> ** ** >> The line is not a feature of poetry. **** >> ** ** >> The line is basically a disciplinary fiction, a fantasy of technique, an >> imaginary feature upon which to render pronouncements and leverage arbitrary >> distinctions for the purpose of acquiring or wielding social and >> disciplinary power. **** >> ** ** >> The history of the line, as something ostensibly worth making distinctions >> about, is the history of poetry both as a fetishized cultural commodity and, >> since the modernist moment, as part of a broader system of belief that has >> helped lead to the disenchantment of everyday cultural life in an advanced >> industrial world. The history of the line, then, is, in its latest >> iteration, in great part a holdover from the history of the right-wing >> modernist fetish of form, which marked the removal of poetry fully from the >> office of humility.**** >> ** ** >> So the line is, in one sense, a gendered and fascist reliquary containing >> the careers of Pound, Eliot, Olson, William Logan, LangPo, and the dismal >> tantrums of the neoformalists?groups and personalities defined by the genre >> of conviction and pronouncement.**** >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics > embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and > lived syncopation. ?Yusef Komunyakaa > **** > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and lived syncopation. ?Yusef Komunyakaa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Oct 23 18:43:35 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 18:43:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <5264842.1319408424746.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <5264842.1319408424746.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <7725560278E941F0B1D42BCDA0CC9FEA@BobHP> I agree with everybody who has so far commented (including Jeff!) I?ve even met Gabriel?nice fellow, talented poet, but here a puritanical know-nothing. The line IS poetry. Fascism, by the way, is forcing others to do something, not choosing to do something oneself. Outlawing the use of the line poetry as much as requiring it. But Gabriel must have some idiosyncratic notion of the line, and is against it. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 18:50:47 2011 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 18:50:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <7725560278E941F0B1D42BCDA0CC9FEA@BobHP> References: <5264842.1319408424746.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <7725560278E941F0B1D42BCDA0CC9FEA@BobHP> Message-ID: We agree? Nice. Let's hope this happens more often. Yes, you make a good point. He must have set up some kind a heuristic in the book's introduction, something about the inherent fascism of a broken line--probably because a lot of other poetry has broken lines, both formal and free verse. I feel the same about Gabe. I've never met him, but I'm often intrigued by what he he has to say. But this mess about the line itself being inherently fascist? Hogwash--or, as they say in South Georgia, "hog-warsh." --Jeff Newberry On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 6:43 PM, bob grumman wrote: > I agree with everybody who has so far commented (including Jeff!) I?ve > even met Gabriel?nice fellow, talented poet, but here a puritanical > know-nothing. The line IS poetry. > > Fascism, by the way, is forcing others to do something, not choosing to > do something oneself. Outlawing the use of the line poetry as much as > requiring it. But Gabriel must have some idiosyncratic notion of the line, > and is against it. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and lived syncopation. ?Yusef Komunyakaa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sun Oct 23 19:08:45 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 18:08:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: References: <5264842.1319408424746.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Spoken/heard makes a lot of sense for folks who can't see or read. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 5:43 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > I agree. I think, though, that some poets are more interested in how a poem > looks on a page than what it sounds like when read aloud. For me, the former > is nowhere near as important as the latter. That's a bone of contention, of > course: is poetry a spoken/heard medium or a seen/read medium? Or both? I > think it's both, but I prefer sound over look. > > Good point about prose poetry. > > Best, > Jeff Newberry > > On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 6:20 PM, wrote: > >> What can one possibly associate it with other than music? >> >> It's possible that Gabe is parodying a certain kind of academic rhetoric. >> God, I hope so. But he is given to strange notions at times. This one is >> simply bullshit. >> >> No one's stopping him from writing prose poetry. There's been a lot of it >> going around for the past couple of hundred years. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jeff Newberry ** >> Sent: Oct 23, 2011 4:46 PM >> To: NewPoetry List ** >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >> >> This is just so much nonsense. I like some of what Gabe Gudding has >> written. He's a very, very smart guy, highly intelligent, the kind of >> provocateur contemporary poetry needs more of. But here, he's trying too >> hard. If you want to discuss the poetic line, fine. But to pretend that the >> line itself is some kind of a holdover from certain kinds of fascist >> Modernism is not only silly, but also a bit short-sighted. >> >> Of course, I associate the line with music, so maybe I'm just seeing the >> line in a completely different way. >> >> --Jeff Newberry >> >> On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 1:34 PM, wrote: >> >>> From *A Broken Thing: Poets On the Line *(U. of Iowa Press, 2011), >>> Gabriel Gudding?s ?The Line as Fetish and Fascist Reliquary?:**** >>> ** ** >>> The line is not a feature of poetry. **** >>> ** ** >>> The line is basically a disciplinary fiction, a fantasy of technique, an >>> imaginary feature upon which to render pronouncements and leverage arbitrary >>> distinctions for the purpose of acquiring or wielding social and >>> disciplinary power. **** >>> ** ** >>> The history of the line, as something ostensibly worth making >>> distinctions about, is the history of poetry both as a fetishized cultural >>> commodity and, since the modernist moment, as part of a broader system of >>> belief that has helped lead to the disenchantment of everyday cultural life >>> in an advanced industrial world. The history of the line, then, is, in its >>> latest iteration, in great part a holdover from the history of the >>> right-wing modernist fetish of form, which marked the removal of poetry >>> fully from the office of humility.**** >>> ** ** >>> So the line is, in one sense, a gendered and fascist reliquary containing >>> the careers of Pound, Eliot, Olson, William Logan, LangPo, and the dismal >>> tantrums of the neoformalists?groups and personalities defined by the genre >>> of conviction and pronouncement.**** >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics >> embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and >> lived syncopation. ?Yusef Komunyakaa >> **** >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics > embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and > lived syncopation. ?Yusef Komunyakaa > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu Sun Oct 23 19:43:29 2011 From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 18:43:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <7725560278E941F0B1D42BCDA0CC9FEA@BobHP> References: <5264842.1319408424746.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <7725560278E941F0B1D42BCDA0CC9FEA@BobHP> Message-ID: <004301cc91dd$91d64380$b582ca80$@ilstu.edu> The line IS poetry. --Bob Don?t want to start a fight, but Bob, wouldn?t it be more accurate to say that ?The line IS verse?? I?d say that meaningful repetition (in lines, sounds, visual elements, etc.) IS poetry. And not all poetry is verse, right? Bill Morgan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Sun Oct 23 20:09:14 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 20:09:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <004301cc91dd$91d64380$b582ca80$@ilstu.edu> References: <5264842.1319408424746.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <7725560278E941F0B1D42BCDA0CC9FEA@BobHP> <004301cc91dd$91d64380$b582ca80$@ilstu.edu> Message-ID: Exactly right, Bill. www.mikesnider.org On Oct 23, 2011, at 19:43, "Bill Morgan" wrote: > The line IS poetry. > > --Bob > > > Don?t want to start a fight, but Bob, wouldn?t it be more accurate to say that ?The line IS verse?? I?d say that meaningful repetition (in lines, sounds, visual elements, etc.) IS poetry. And not all poetry is verse, right? > > Bill Morgan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Sun Oct 23 21:38:19 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 20:38:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <8CE5FC1335C17C4-B08-210CC@webmail-d153.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE5FC1335C17C4-B08-210CC@webmail-d153.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4EA4C18B.4040801@louisiana.edu> *On one hand:* 1. "The line is not a feature of poetry." [Simply wrong, empirically. It's a feature of some poetry.] 2. "The line is basically a disciplinary fiction, a fantasy of technique, an imaginary feature upon which to render pronouncements and leverage arbitrary distinctions for the purpose of acquiring or wielding social and disciplinary power." [This certainly does sound like a parody, and Gudding's certainly capable of tossing a joke here and there, even in such a context. Of course there's a way to read "disciplinary fiction" and "fantasy of technique" so that they make some kind of sense. But I'm not sure why someone would frame large arguments about the artificial conventions used to sustain a discipline or a set of illusions coded under the umbrella term "technique" in such a crabbed shorthand, unless one were preaching to a choir of semiologists; as to those "pronouncements" and the capacity to "leverage arbitrary distinctions," and above all as to "wielding social and disciplinary power," all that seems a little heavy in starches for a guy who wrote _A Defense of Poetry_ (in a series of very smartly-lineated, intelligent, often very funny poems). There's a certain crowd that _does_ believe that comma placement, unusual capitalization, and paratactic disjuntions (and line endings) amount to a hill of beans in the quest for social power; me, I'm with Auden: the unacknowledged legislators of mankind are the secret police.] 3. "The history of the line, as something ostensibly worth making distinctions about, is the history of poetry both as a fetishized cultural commodity . . ." [There's a fair measure of truth in this, though it's worth noting that the history of the line seems like a fairly small component of the history of poetry as a fetishized cultural commodity; and that there are fetishes and there are fetishes--how serious a matter to the world is the understanding that poetry is fetishized? And how much of a commodity is it? Some of the members of the crowd mentioned above respond to a generalized commodification of everyday experience with a theoretical stun-gun: anything that's likely to be recognizable as part of a given moment's grammar of any art form would thus participate in global commodification; I'd call that a slippery-slope argument.] 4. " . . . and, since the modernist moment, as part of a broader system of belief that has helped lead to the disenchantment of everyday cultural life in an advanced industrial world." [How big a part? It's a monstrous big "system of belief" (and it's not just _belief_; it's also behaviors, agencies, political praxis, etc. that lead to this "disenchantment," if I understand "disenchantment" correctly. I doubt it's the word he'd choose if he took longer to think about it.] 5. "The history of the line, then, is, in its latest iteration, in great part a holdover from the history of the right-wing modernist fetish of form, which marked the removal of poetry fully from the office of humility." [Where's that office? I want to file a complaint with the clerk who works there. The "then" of this sentence is bollocks. There's been nothing like a logical proof to these exaggerated bits and pieces of fashionable jargon. Equally bad (I don't know whether it's worse conceptually or stylistically) is "in its latest iteration," which, as far as I can see, means nothing at all, except that its author would like to spread a veneer of historicism over an argument that suffers from a comprehensive lack of evidence. And "in great part" is even worse, since it moves from idle generalizations with _no_ markers of extent or proportion to a piece of intellectual puffery that entirely disregards any disposition of lineation that _isn't_ a holdover from fascist inclinations. I refuse to believe that Gudding believes the implications of what he's saying here.] 6. "So the line is, in one sense, a gendered and fascist reliquary containing the careers of Pound, Eliot, Olson, William Logan, LangPo, and the dismal tantrums of the neoformalists---groups and personalities defined by the genre of conviction and pronouncement." [Same as above goes for the "So" of this line. Meanwhile the "in one sense" suddenly backs off the careless essentialism of some of the less defensible earlier claims, only to take a deep breath and dive back into "gendered and fascist reliquary" when he hasn't said a word previously about gender; and then he enlists the careless vagary "containing the careers" as if everything about all the poets (and entire schools!) he mentions were equally dismissable; and then he packages Pound, Eliot, and Olson with William Logan, and William Logan with everyone who's ever been associated with "Langpo," and everyone who's ever been associated with "Langpo" with "the neoformalists"; and his explanation--the nearest he comes to a justification for his excesses--is that all these monsters of lineation are subservient to an ideology (it _can't_ merely be a "genre," can it?) of "conviction and pronouncement." Which brings me back to the idea that the whole thing comes off as a failed (because insufficiently exaggerated) parody of a certain kind of self-righteous, superior attitudinizing. Because otherwise, how could Gudding be damning everything connected with "conviction" and/or "pronouncement," the twinned centerpieces of the piece of writing he's engaged in here? Unless of course he feels that those things are only problems when lineated.] * On the other hand:* I haven't read the book; it sounds like it has potential, if only for encouraging crackpot manifestos and reactionary self-advertisements. Above all, I need to see if Gudding's whole essay somehow redeems this excerpt--I haven't seen him, up to this point, as someone as humorless and fashion-conscious (though it's a great graphic on the cover of his _Defense_) as the voice that emerges from what we have here. Best, Jerry On 10/23/2011 12:34 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: > From /A Broken Thing: Poets On the Line /(U. of Iowa Press, 2011), > Gabriel Gudding's "The Line as Fetish and Fascist Reliquary": > The line is not a feature of poetry. > The line is basically a disciplinary fiction, a fantasy of technique, > an imaginary feature upon which to render pronouncements and leverage > arbitrary distinctions for the purpose of acquiring or wielding social > and disciplinary power. > The history of the line, as something ostensibly worth making > distinctions about, is the history of poetry both as a fetishized > cultural commodity and, since the modernist moment, as part of a > broader system of belief that has helped lead to the disenchantment of > everyday cultural life in an advanced industrial world. The history of > the line, then, is, in its latest iteration, in great part a holdover > from the history of the right-wing modernist fetish of form, which > marked the removal of poetry fully from the office of humility. > So the line is, in one sense, a gendered and fascist reliquary > containing the careers of Pound, Eliot, Olson, William Logan, LangPo, > and the dismal tantrums of the neoformalists---groups and > personalities defined by the genre of conviction and pronouncement. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Sun Oct 23 21:37:58 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Sun, 23 Oct 2011 18:37:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: References: <5264842.1319408424746.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <7725560278E941F0B1D42BCDA0CC9FEA@BobHP> <004301cc91dd$91d64380$b582ca80$@ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <1319420278.59311.YahooMailNeo@web120529.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I second it. JohnJ >________________________________ >From: Michael Snider >To: NewPoetry List >Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 8:09 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > >Exactly right, Bill. > >www.mikesnider.org > >On Oct 23, 2011, at 19:43, "Bill Morgan" wrote: > > >The line IS poetry. >>? >>--Bob >>? >>? >>Don?t want to start a fight, but Bob, wouldn?t it be more accurate to say that ?The line IS verse??? I?d say that meaningful repetition (in lines, sounds, visual elements, etc.) IS poetry.? And not all poetry is verse, right? >>? >>Bill Morgan >_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Oct 24 11:36:51 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 11:36:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <1319420278.59311.YahooMailNeo@web120529.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <5264842.1319408424746.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net><7725560278E941F0B1D42BCDA0CC9FEA@BobHP><004301c c91dd$91d64380$b582ca80$@ilstu.edu> <1319420278.59311.YahooMailNeo@web120529.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: So, what do you call the words that go from one side of a page to somewhere in the middle in what is called free verse? And how can writers of free verse make line-endings if their poems don?t have lines? ?Lineation? is the use of word-sequences that end at a place determined by their creators, not at a page?s righthand margin, or near it (except at the end of paragraphs). Those word-sequences are called ?lines.? Hence, the word,?lineation.? A key interest of any poet is in the line as a line?that, more than anything else, differentiates him from a prose writer. You guys are nuts. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Oct 24 11:39:42 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 11:39:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <1319420278.59311.YahooMailNeo@web120529.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <5264842.1319408424746.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net><7725560278E941F0B1D42BCDA0CC9FEA@BobHP><004301c c91dd$91d64380$b582ca80$@ilstu.edu> <1319420278.59311.YahooMailNeo@web120529.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <83D405ED4BFF480FB31985DF4A67B165@BobHP> Poetry consists of lines, prose of passages. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 24 11:40:18 2011 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 08:40:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: References: <5264842.1319408424746.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net><7725560278E941F0B1D42BCDA0CC9FEA@BobHP><004301c c91dd$91d64380$b582ca80$@ilstu.edu> <1319420278.59311.YahooMailNeo@web120529.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1319470818.66123.YahooMailNeo@web160113.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Odd, Bob, I thought everyone here was agreeing with you -- this time quite wholeheartedly. Did I miss part of the discussion? Amicalement, Alex ? www.alexdickow.net/blog/ ? les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ________________________________ From: bob grumman To: NewPoetry List Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 11:36 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line So, what do you call the words that go from one side of a page to somewhere in the middle in what is called free verse?? And how can writers of free verse make line-endings if their poems don?t have lines?? ?Lineation? is the use of word-sequences that end at a place determined by their creators, not at a page?s righthand margin, or near it (except at the end of paragraphs).? Those word-sequences are called ?lines.?? Hence, the word,?lineation.?? A key interest of any poet is in the line as a line?that, more than anything else, differentiates him from a prose writer. You guys are nuts. ? --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Oct 24 12:04:18 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:04:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <1319470818.66123.YahooMailNeo@web160113.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <5264842.1319408424746.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net><7725560278E941F0B1D42BCDA0CC9FEA@BobHP><004301c c91dd$91d64380$b582ca80$@ilstu.edu><1319420278.59311.YahooMailNeo@web12052 9.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1319470818.66123.YahooMailNeo@web160113.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6418902B99324411830D4187D4E73E57@BobHP> From: Alexander Dickow Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 11:40 AM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Odd, Bob, I thought everyone here was agreeing with you -- this time quite wholeheartedly. Did I miss part of the discussion? Amicalement, Alex It?s a conspiracy, Alex. The Poetry Establishment found out they were agreeing with me and sent out orders! It clarifies what Gabriel is (probably) doing, though?taking ?line? to mean what I?d call ?metrical line.? He?s still preposterously wrong, though. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Mon Oct 24 14:36:06 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:36:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Rothenberg's Retrievals Message-ID: <8CE6092EC53F95C-1D18-44F8E@webmail-d077.sysops.aol.com> http://www.forward.com/articles/144598/ Retrievals: Uncollected & New Poems, 1955-2010 By Jerome Rothenberg Junction Press, 178 pages, $21 Author and translator of nearly 100 books of poetry as well as editor of numerous groundbreaking anthologies, poet Jerome Rothenberg is turning 80 this year. A retrospective of his work has long been overdue. Yet Rothenberg, who throughout his literary career has dodged conventions and expectations, stays true to the course with his recently published collection, ?Retrievals.? Although billed as a retrospective, the book does not have any of his best-known or most anthologized work, but only poems that have fallen between the cracks: unpublished and newly rediscovered material from over the years. As the author himself puts it in the afterword, this is a ?book that charts my life as a poet? if it were arranged without the poems collected here.? It is his literary trajectory, read through the lens of previously unknown work -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Oct 24 14:52:49 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:52:49 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Rothenberg's Retrievals Message-ID: <1214539.1319482370315.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Oct 24 15:01:15 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 15:01:15 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Rothenberg's Retrievals Message-ID: <1636270.1319482875765.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 15:29:23 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:29:23 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein Message-ID: http://www.npg.si.edu/exhibit/stein/legacies.html -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Mon Oct 24 15:37:40 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:37:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319485060.94605.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Or semantics. & semantically speaking, perhaps the sentence is the main form of all written communication ... or contemporary written language. & verse is merely form composed of the sentence, of sound.? --- On Sun, 10/23/11, Michael Snider wrote: From: Michael Snider Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Sunday, October 23, 2011, 8:09 PM Exactly right, Bill. www.mikesnider.org On Oct 23, 2011, at 19:43, "Bill Morgan" wrote: The line IS poetry.?--Bob ? ?Don?t want to start a fight, but Bob, wouldn?t it be more accurate to say that ?The line IS verse??? I?d say that meaningful repetition (in lines, sounds, visual elements, etc.) IS poetry.? And not all poetry is verse, right? ?Bill Morgan_______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Oct 24 15:37:44 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 15:37:44 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Message-ID: <15463900.1319485065326.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Mon Oct 24 15:42:19 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:42:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <15463900.1319485065326.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1319485339.12526.YahooMailClassic@web161908.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Yeah, the shit gets dopey. I want my feet commodified. & I love the refreshing sound of a toilet's flush. The academics spoil everything. Marx was actually a good writer. Had lyrical moments ... Chomsky is great as he shows capatilism coupled with power. Allow lit departments to run rampant with genuine philosophy & everyone ends up confused. --- On Mon, 10/24/11, junction at earthlink.net wrote: From: junction at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 3:37 PM #yiv1544945436 body{font-family:Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:9pt;background-color:#ffffff;color:black;}I've been thinking lately about the role of shoes in the capitalist commodification of feet. Also about toilet paper and the commodification of commodes. Any thoughts? -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Newberry Sent: Oct 23, 2011 4:46 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line This is just so much nonsense. I like some of what Gabe Gudding has written. He's a very, very smart guy, highly intelligent, the kind of provocateur contemporary poetry needs more of. But here, he's trying too hard. If you want to discuss the poetic line, fine. But to pretend that the line itself is some kind of a holdover from certain kinds of fascist Modernism is not only silly, but also a bit short-sighted. Of course, I associate the line with music, so maybe I'm just seeing the line in a completely different way. --Jeff Newberry On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 1:34 PM, wrote: From ?A Broken Thing: Poets On the Line (U. of Iowa Press, 2011), Gabriel Gudding?s ?The Line as Fetish and Fascist Reliquary?: ? The line is not a feature of poetry. ? The line is basically a disciplinary fiction, a fantasy of technique, an imaginary feature upon which to render pronouncements and leverage arbitrary distinctions for the purpose of acquiring or wielding social and disciplinary power. ? The history of the line, as something ostensibly worth making distinctions about, is the history of poetry both as a fetishized cultural commodity and, since the modernist moment, as part of a broader system of belief that has helped lead to the disenchantment of everyday cultural life in an advanced industrial world. The history of the line, then, is, in its latest iteration, in great part a holdover from the history of the right-wing modernist fetish of form, which marked the removal of poetry fully from the office of humility. ? So the line is, in one sense, a gendered and fascist reliquary containing the careers of Pound, Eliot, Olson, William Logan, LangPo, and the dismal tantrums of the neoformalists?groups and personalities defined by the genre of conviction and pronouncement. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics embodied in language?s natural music.? It isn?t a gush, but a felt and lived syncopation.? ?Yusef Komunyakaa -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Mon Oct 24 16:14:36 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 13:14:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <1319485339.12526.YahooMailClassic@web161908.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1319487276.90805.YahooMailClassic@web161913.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Make me dictator, and I promise the people, this will STOP! --- On Mon, 10/24/11, stephen russell wrote: From: stephen russell Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 3:42 PM Yeah, the shit gets dopey. I want my feet commodified. & I love the refreshing sound of a toilet's flush. The academics spoil everything. Marx was actually a good writer. Had lyrical moments ... Chomsky is great as he shows capatilism coupled with power. Allow lit departments to run rampant with genuine philosophy & everyone ends up confused. --- On Mon, 10/24/11, junction at earthlink.net wrote: From: junction at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 3:37 PM #yiv182779451 body{font-family:Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:9pt;background-color:#ffffff;color:black;}I've been thinking lately about the role of shoes in the capitalist commodification of feet. Also about toilet paper and the commodification of commodes. Any thoughts? -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Newberry Sent: Oct 23, 2011 4:46 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line This is just so much nonsense. I like some of what Gabe Gudding has written. He's a very, very smart guy, highly intelligent, the kind of provocateur contemporary poetry needs more of. But here, he's trying too hard. If you want to discuss the poetic line, fine. But to pretend that the line itself is some kind of a holdover from certain kinds of fascist Modernism is not only silly, but also a bit short-sighted. Of course, I associate the line with music, so maybe I'm just seeing the line in a completely different way. --Jeff Newberry On Sun, Oct 23, 2011 at 1:34 PM, wrote: From ?A Broken Thing: Poets On the Line (U. of Iowa Press, 2011), Gabriel Gudding?s ?The Line as Fetish and Fascist Reliquary?: ? The line is not a feature of poetry. ? The line is basically a disciplinary fiction, a fantasy of technique, an imaginary feature upon which to render pronouncements and leverage arbitrary distinctions for the purpose of acquiring or wielding social and disciplinary power. ? The history of the line, as something ostensibly worth making distinctions about, is the history of poetry both as a fetishized cultural commodity and, since the modernist moment, as part of a broader system of belief that has helped lead to the disenchantment of everyday cultural life in an advanced industrial world. The history of the line, then, is, in its latest iteration, in great part a holdover from the history of the right-wing modernist fetish of form, which marked the removal of poetry fully from the office of humility. ? So the line is, in one sense, a gendered and fascist reliquary containing the careers of Pound, Eliot, Olson, William Logan, LangPo, and the dismal tantrums of the neoformalists?groups and personalities defined by the genre of conviction and pronouncement. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics embodied in language?s natural music.? It isn?t a gush, but a felt and lived syncopation.? ?Yusef Komunyakaa -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 16:41:26 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 15:41:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, Anny. Very nice, so very very nice. And thank you, Anny. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 2:29 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > http://www.npg.si.edu/exhibit/stein/legacies.html > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 16:42:27 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 15:42:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <1319485060.94605.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1319485060.94605.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: All sentences are elaborated grunts and chortles. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 2:37 PM, stephen russell < poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: > Or semantics. & semantically speaking, perhaps the sentence is the main > form of all written communication ... or contemporary written language. & > verse is merely form > composed of the sentence, of sound. > > --- On *Sun, 10/23/11, Michael Snider * wrote: > > > From: Michael Snider > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Sunday, October 23, 2011, 8:09 PM > > Exactly right, Bill. > > www.mikesnider.org > > On Oct 23, 2011, at 19:43, "Bill Morgan" > > wrote: > > The line IS poetry. > > > > --Bob > > > > > > Don?t want to start a fight, but Bob, wouldn?t it be more accurate to say > that ?The line IS verse?? I?d say that meaningful repetition (in lines, > sounds, visual elements, etc.) IS poetry. And not all poetry is verse, > right? > > > > Bill Morgan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Oct 24 16:42:45 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 16:42:45 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] upcoming event Message-ID: <20591301.1319488965994.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Join us for the premier of HERE AT THE SHORE A song cycle by Barbara K. Wesby Poetry by Mark Weiss Sunday, October 30, 2011, 3:00 PM Christ & St. Stephens Church 120 West 69th St, NYC (between Broadway & Columbus) North/South Consonance Chamber Orchestra Max Lifchitz, conductor Carla Wesby, soprano Free admission; donations accepted From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Mon Oct 24 16:44:38 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 13:44:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <1319485060.94605.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1319489078.31949.YahooMailClassic@web161920.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> of course, none of this explains the difference between contemporary poetry & prose. Back in the day, it was easy. Back when meter was meter, and iambs were iambs. Now, we need Grumman's help ... In our era of post form ... poetry looks different, and novels are composed (rarely) of verse ... & prose poems & flash fiction are nearly identical ... it's all too confusing ... perhaps only someone trained in mathmatics can be of use ... Re-reading Gary Synder ... I'm convinced that he's the most erudite poet we currently have ... a national treasure. --- On Mon, 10/24/11, stephen russell wrote: From: stephen russell Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 3:37 PM Or semantics. & semantically speaking, perhaps the sentence is the main form of all written communication ... or contemporary written language. & verse is merely form composed of the sentence, of sound.? --- On Sun, 10/23/11, Michael Snider wrote: From: Michael Snider Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Sunday, October 23, 2011, 8:09 PM Exactly right, Bill. www.mikesnider.org On Oct 23, 2011, at 19:43, "Bill Morgan" wrote: The line IS poetry.?--Bob ? ?Don?t want to start a fight, but Bob, wouldn?t it be more accurate to say that ?The line IS verse??? I?d say that meaningful repetition (in lines, sounds, visual elements, etc.) IS poetry.? And not all poetry is verse, right? ?Bill Morgan_______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fox.skip at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 16:47:27 2011 From: fox.skip at gmail.com (Skip Fox) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 15:47:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <1319485060.94605.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1319485060.94605.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Good thing Gudding writes better than he thinks. On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 2:37 PM, stephen russell < poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: > Or semantics. & semantically speaking, perhaps the sentence is the main > form of all written communication ... or contemporary written language. & > verse is merely form > composed of the sentence, of sound. > > --- On *Sun, 10/23/11, Michael Snider * wrote: > > > From: Michael Snider > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Sunday, October 23, 2011, 8:09 PM > > Exactly right, Bill. > > www.mikesnider.org > > On Oct 23, 2011, at 19:43, "Bill Morgan" > > wrote: > > The line IS poetry. > > > > --Bob > > > > > > Don?t want to start a fight, but Bob, wouldn?t it be more accurate to say > that ?The line IS verse?? I?d say that meaningful repetition (in lines, > sounds, visual elements, etc.) IS poetry. And not all poetry is verse, > right? > > > > Bill Morgan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 16:55:50 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 13:55:50 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I thank you also, again, and also again Hal for thanking very very nicely and not spanking but never you, Anny, whom we all thank actually and forever nicely. - Jim On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 1:41 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Thanks, Anny. Very nice, so very very nice. And thank you, Anny. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 2:29 PM, Anny Ballardini < > anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote: > >> http://www.npg.si.edu/exhibit/stein/legacies.html >> >> -- >> Anny Ballardini >> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >> star! >> Friedrich Nietzsche >> >> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >> Giovenale >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 16:58:58 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 13:58:58 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: References: <1319485060.94605.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Seemingly not in certain instances. Which surprises me as the guy is fun and bright and usually clear. - Jim On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 1:47 PM, Skip Fox wrote: > Good thing Gudding writes better than he thinks. > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 2:37 PM, stephen russell < > poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: > >> Or semantics. & semantically speaking, perhaps the sentence is the main >> form of all written communication ... or contemporary written language. & >> verse is merely form >> composed of the sentence, of sound. >> >> --- On *Sun, 10/23/11, Michael Snider * wrote: >> >> >> From: Michael Snider >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >> To: "NewPoetry List" >> Date: Sunday, October 23, 2011, 8:09 PM >> >> Exactly right, Bill. >> >> www.mikesnider.org >> >> On Oct 23, 2011, at 19:43, "Bill Morgan" > >> wrote: >> >> The line IS poetry. >> >> >> >> --Bob >> >> >> >> >> >> Don?t want to start a fight, but Bob, wouldn?t it be more accurate to say >> that ?The line IS verse?? I?d say that meaningful repetition (in lines, >> sounds, visual elements, etc.) IS poetry. And not all poetry is verse, >> right? >> >> >> >> Bill Morgan >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Mon Oct 24 17:07:34 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:07:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319490454.86701.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Anny is simply an A students who sits, probably scetching something rather than taking notes, as she quietly, but rarely,? raises her hand. In other words, a teacher's pet. I know the type ... Sorry, Anny. --- On Mon, 10/24/11, James Cervantes wrote: From: James Cervantes Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 4:55 PM I thank you also, again, and also again Hal for thanking very very nicely and not spanking but never you, Anny, whom we all thank actually and forever nicely. - Jim On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 1:41 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: Thanks, Anny. Very nice, so very very nice. And thank you, Anny. ?? ? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 2:29 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: http://www.npg.si.edu/exhibit/stein/legacies.html -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Sol Literary Magazine:?http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 17:09:55 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 16:09:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <1319489078.31949.YahooMailClassic@web161920.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1319485060.94605.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1319489078.31949.YahooMailClassic@web161920.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Take a nap, Stephen. All will be made known to you. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 3:44 PM, stephen russell < poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: > of course, none of this explains the difference between contemporary poetry > & prose. Back in the day, it was easy. Back when meter was meter, and iambs > were iambs. Now, we need Grumman's help ... In our era of post form ... > poetry looks different, and novels are composed (rarely) of verse ... & > prose poems & flash fiction are nearly identical ... it's all too confusing > ... perhaps only someone trained in mathmatics can be of use ... > > Re-reading Gary Synder ... I'm convinced that he's the most erudite poet we > currently have ... a national treasure. > > --- On *Mon, 10/24/11, stephen russell *wrote: > > > From: stephen russell > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 3:37 PM > > Or semantics. & semantically speaking, perhaps the sentence is the main > form of all written communication ... or contemporary written language. & > verse is merely form > composed of the sentence, of sound. > > --- On *Sun, 10/23/11, Michael Snider * wrote: > > > From: Michael Snider > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Sunday, October 23, 2011, 8:09 PM > > Exactly right, Bill. > > www.mikesnider.org > > On Oct 23, 2011, at 19:43, "Bill Morgan" wrote: > > The line IS poetry. > > > > --Bob > > > > > > Don?t want to start a fight, but Bob, wouldn?t it be more accurate to say > that ?The line IS verse?? I?d say that meaningful repetition (in lines, > sounds, visual elements, etc.) IS poetry. And not all poetry is verse, > right? > > > > Bill Morgan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 17:11:09 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 16:11:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein In-Reply-To: <1319490454.86701.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1319490454.86701.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Go stand in the corner, Stephen. Nobody disses Anny in here. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 4:07 PM, stephen russell < poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: > Anny is simply an A students who sits, probably scetching something rather > than taking notes, as she quietly, but rarely, raises her hand. In other > words, a teacher's pet. I know the type ... Sorry, Anny. > > --- On *Mon, 10/24/11, James Cervantes * wrote: > > > From: James Cervantes > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 4:55 PM > > > I thank you also, again, and also again Hal for thanking very very nicely > and not spanking but never you, Anny, whom we all thank actually and forever > nicely. > > - Jim > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 1:41 PM, Halvard Johnson > > wrote: > > Thanks, Anny. Very nice, so very very nice. And thank you, Anny. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 2:29 PM, Anny Ballardini < > anny.ballardini at gmail.com > > wrote: > > http://www.npg.si.edu/exhibit/stein/legacies.html > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > > Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ > > The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > > https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home > > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning > > http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Mon Oct 24 17:11:19 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:11:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <1319489078.31949.YahooMailClassic@web161920.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1319485060.94605.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1319489078.31949.YahooMailClassic@web161920.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1319490679.49622.YahooMailNeo@web120529.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Interestingly, at a poetry reading last week, the poet said that his latest book was all prose poems.? Someone in the audience asked about prose poems, saying, Couldn't you just take any free verse poem, remove the line breaks, and call it a prose poem?? What makes the prose poem special? Ah, then the fun began as the poor guy tried to explain.? There was mention of compression and images.? Of a story being told.? Of "poetic language."? Of compression (again).? Of poetic techniques.? He even mentioned Flash Fiction at one point in a sort of compare and contrast.? (The professor in him, I'm sure.)? In the end, there was still much confusion, follow-up questions left hanging in the air.? No one wanted to go through it again. JohnJ >________________________________ >From: stephen russell >To: NewPoetry List >Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 4:44 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > >of course, none of this explains the difference between contemporary poetry & prose. Back in the day, it was easy. Back when meter was meter, and iambs were iambs. Now, we need Grumman's help ... In our era of post form ... poetry looks different, and novels are composed (rarely) of verse ... & prose poems & flash fiction are nearly identical ... it's all too confusing ... perhaps only someone trained in mathmatics can be of use ... > >Re-reading Gary Synder ... I'm convinced that he's the most erudite poet we currently have ... a national treasure. > >--- On Mon, 10/24/11, stephen russell wrote: > > >>From: stephen russell >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>To: "NewPoetry List" >>Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 3:37 PM >> >> >>Or semantics. & semantically speaking, perhaps the sentence is the main form of all written communication ... or contemporary written language. & verse is merely form >>composed of the sentence, of sound.? >> >>--- On Sun, 10/23/11, Michael Snider wrote: >> >> >>>From: Michael Snider >>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>To: "NewPoetry List" >>>Date: Sunday, October 23, 2011, 8:09 PM >>> >>> >>>Exactly right, Bill. >>> >>>www.mikesnider.org >>> >>>On Oct 23, 2011, at 19:43, "Bill Morgan" wrote: >>> >>> >>>The line IS poetry. >>>>? >>>>--Bob >>>>? >>>>? >>>>Don?t want to start a fight, but Bob, wouldn?t it be more accurate to say that ?The line IS verse??? I?d say that meaningful repetition (in lines, sounds, visual elements, etc.) IS poetry.? And not all poetry is verse, right? >>>>? >>>>Bill Morgan >>>_______________________________________________ >>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>-----Inline Attachment Follows----- >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>-----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Oct 24 17:14:10 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 17:14:10 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Message-ID: <24969561.1319490850247.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Oct 24 17:15:56 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 17:15:56 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Message-ID: <23438930.1319490957020.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Oct 24 17:17:41 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 17:17:41 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Message-ID: <1891970.1319491061568.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 17:27:00 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:27:00 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <1891970.1319491061568.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <1891970.1319491061568.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: B-b-b-b-ob does. - Jim On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 2:17 PM, wrote: > Besides, if it works who cares what it's called? > > -----Original Message----- > From: junction at earthlink.net > Sent: Oct 24, 2011 5:15 PM > To: NewPoetry List ** > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > ******It's pretty easy. It's a matter of rhythm. Think of the prose poem > as a single line. Or as a directio9n tio imagine it as a single line. Which > does get one to read it in a particular way. > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Jeffrey ** > Sent: Oct 24, 2011 5:11 PM > To: NewPoetry List ** > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > **** > Interestingly, at a poetry reading last week, the poet said that his latest > book was all prose poems. Someone in the audience asked about prose poems, > saying, Couldn't you just take any free verse poem, remove the line breaks, > and call it a prose poem? What makes the prose poem special? > > Ah, then the fun began as the poor guy tried to explain. There was mention > of compression and images. Of a story being told. Of "poetic language." > Of compression (again). Of poetic techniques. He even mentioned Flash > Fiction at one point in a sort of compare and contrast. (The professor in > him, I'm sure.) In the end, there was still much confusion, follow-up > questions left hanging in the air. No one wanted to go through it again. > > JohnJ > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* stephen russell > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Sent:* Monday, October 24, 2011 4:44 PM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > of course, none of this explains the difference between contemporary poetry > & prose. Back in the day, it was easy. Back when meter was meter, and iambs > were iambs. Now, we need Grumman's help ... In our era of post form ... > poetry looks different, and novels are composed (rarely) of verse ... & > prose poems & flash fiction are nearly identical ... it's all too confusing > ... perhaps only someone trained in mathmatics can be of use ... > > Re-reading Gary Synder ... I'm convinced that he's the most erudite poet we > currently have ... a national treasure. > > --- On *Mon, 10/24/11, stephen russell *wrote: > > > From: stephen russell > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 3:37 PM > > Or semantics. & semantically speaking, perhaps the sentence is the main > form of all written communication ... or contemporary written language. & > verse is merely form > composed of the sentence, of sound. > > --- On *Sun, 10/23/11, Michael Snider * wrote: > > > From: Michael Snider > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Sunday, October 23, 2011, 8:09 PM > > Exactly right, Bill. > > www.mikesnider.org > > On Oct 23, 2011, at 19:43, "Bill Morgan" wrote: > > The line IS poetry. > > --Bob > > > Don?t want to start a fight, but Bob, wouldn?t it be more accurate to say > that ?The line IS verse?? I?d say that meaningful repetition (in lines, > sounds, visual elements, etc.) IS poetry. And not all poetry is verse, > right? > > Bill Morgan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ******** > > ** ** > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 17:37:49 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 16:37:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <23438930.1319490957020.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <23438930.1319490957020.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Or maybe just stop asking silly questions. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 4:15 PM, wrote: > It's pretty easy. It's a matter of rhythm. Think of the prose poem as a > single line. Or as a directio9n tio imagine it as a single line. Which does > get one to read it in a particular way. > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Jeffrey ** > Sent: Oct 24, 2011 5:11 PM > To: NewPoetry List ** > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > **** > Interestingly, at a poetry reading last week, the poet said that his latest > book was all prose poems. Someone in the audience asked about prose poems, > saying, Couldn't you just take any free verse poem, remove the line breaks, > and call it a prose poem? What makes the prose poem special? > > Ah, then the fun began as the poor guy tried to explain. There was mention > of compression and images. Of a story being told. Of "poetic language." > Of compression (again). Of poetic techniques. He even mentioned Flash > Fiction at one point in a sort of compare and contrast. (The professor in > him, I'm sure.) In the end, there was still much confusion, follow-up > questions left hanging in the air. No one wanted to go through it again. > > JohnJ > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* stephen russell > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Sent:* Monday, October 24, 2011 4:44 PM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > of course, none of this explains the difference between contemporary poetry > & prose. Back in the day, it was easy. Back when meter was meter, and iambs > were iambs. Now, we need Grumman's help ... In our era of post form ... > poetry looks different, and novels are composed (rarely) of verse ... & > prose poems & flash fiction are nearly identical ... it's all too confusing > ... perhaps only someone trained in mathmatics can be of use ... > > Re-reading Gary Synder ... I'm convinced that he's the most erudite poet we > currently have ... a national treasure. > > --- On *Mon, 10/24/11, stephen russell *wrote: > > > From: stephen russell > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 3:37 PM > > Or semantics. & semantically speaking, perhaps the sentence is the main > form of all written communication ... or contemporary written language. & > verse is merely form > composed of the sentence, of sound. > > --- On *Sun, 10/23/11, Michael Snider * wrote: > > > From: Michael Snider > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Sunday, October 23, 2011, 8:09 PM > > Exactly right, Bill. > > www.mikesnider.org > > On Oct 23, 2011, at 19:43, "Bill Morgan" wrote: > > The line IS poetry. > > --Bob > > > Don?t want to start a fight, but Bob, wouldn?t it be more accurate to say > that ?The line IS verse?? I?d say that meaningful repetition (in lines, > sounds, visual elements, etc.) IS poetry. And not all poetry is verse, > right? > > Bill Morgan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ******** > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Mon Oct 24 17:56:26 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 14:56:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319493386.73645.YahooMailClassic@web161915.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Now Hal, I was told that there wasn't such a thing as a silly question. You're going against everything I've been taught. There's a perfect circle in hell for poets. It involves endless hair splitting over questions that wouldn't occur to anyone else ... 'cause others have lives that don't involve aforesaid questions. Lucky them. --- On Mon, 10/24/11, Halvard Johnson wrote: From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 5:37 PM Or maybe just stop asking silly questions. ?? ? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 4:15 PM, wrote: It's pretty easy. It's a matter of rhythm. Think of the prose poem as a single line. Or as a directio9n tio imagine it as a single line. Which does get one to read it in a particular way. -----Original Message----- From: John Jeffrey Sent: Oct 24, 2011 5:11 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Interestingly, at a poetry reading last week, the poet said that his latest book was all prose poems.? Someone in the audience asked about prose poems, saying, Couldn't you just take any free verse poem, remove the line breaks, and call it a prose poem?? What makes the prose poem special? Ah, then the fun began as the poor guy tried to explain.? There was mention of compression and images.? Of a story being told.? Of "poetic language."? Of compression (again).? Of poetic techniques.? He even mentioned Flash Fiction at one point in a sort of compare and contrast.? (The professor in him, I'm sure.)? In the end, there was still much confusion, follow-up questions left hanging in the air.? No one wanted to go through it again. JohnJ From: stephen russell To: NewPoetry List Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line of course, none of this explains the difference between contemporary poetry & prose. Back in the day, it was easy. Back when meter was meter, and iambs were iambs. Now, we need Grumman's help ... In our era of post form ... poetry looks different, and novels are composed (rarely) of verse ... & prose poems & flash fiction are nearly identical ... it's all too confusing ... perhaps only someone trained in mathmatics can be of use ... Re-reading Gary Synder ... I'm convinced that he's the most erudite poet we currently have ... a national treasure. --- On Mon, 10/24/11, stephen russell wrote: From: stephen russell Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 3:37 PM Or semantics. & semantically speaking, perhaps the sentence is the main form of all written communication ... or contemporary written language. & verse is merely form composed of the sentence, of sound.? --- On Sun, 10/23/11, Michael Snider wrote: From: Michael Snider Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Sunday, October 23, 2011, 8:09 PM Exactly right, Bill. www.mikesnider.org On Oct 23, 2011, at 19:43, "Bill Morgan" wrote: The line IS poetry.?--Bob ? ?Don?t want to start a fight, but Bob, wouldn?t it be more accurate to say that ?The line IS verse??? I?d say that meaningful repetition (in lines, sounds, visual elements, etc.) IS poetry.? And not all poetry is verse, right? ?Bill Morgan_______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 18:03:22 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 17:03:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <1319493386.73645.YahooMailClassic@web161915.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1319493386.73645.YahooMailClassic@web161915.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It's gotta be that different drummer, Stephen. Listen to her. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 4:56 PM, stephen russell < poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: > Now Hal, I was told that there wasn't such a thing as a silly question. > You're going against everything I've been taught. There's a perfect circle > in hell for poets. It involves endless hair splitting over questions that > wouldn't occur to anyone else ... 'cause others have lives that don't > involve aforesaid questions. Lucky them. > > --- On *Mon, 10/24/11, Halvard Johnson * wrote: > > > From: Halvard Johnson > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 5:37 PM > > > Or maybe just stop asking silly questions. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 4:15 PM, > > wrote: > > It's pretty easy. It's a matter of rhythm. Think of the prose poem as a > single line. Or as a directio9n tio imagine it as a single line. Which does > get one to read it in a particular way. > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Jeffrey ** > Sent: Oct 24, 2011 5:11 PM > To: NewPoetry List ** > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > **** > Interestingly, at a poetry reading last week, the poet said that his latest > book was all prose poems. Someone in the audience asked about prose poems, > saying, Couldn't you just take any free verse poem, remove the line breaks, > and call it a prose poem? What makes the prose poem special? > > Ah, then the fun began as the poor guy tried to explain. There was mention > of compression and images. Of a story being told. Of "poetic language." > Of compression (again). Of poetic techniques. He even mentioned Flash > Fiction at one point in a sort of compare and contrast. (The professor in > him, I'm sure.) In the end, there was still much confusion, follow-up > questions left hanging in the air. No one wanted to go through it again. > > JohnJ > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* stephen russell > > > *To:* NewPoetry List > > > *Sent:* Monday, October 24, 2011 4:44 PM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > of course, none of this explains the difference between contemporary poetry > & prose. Back in the day, it was easy. Back when meter was meter, and iambs > were iambs. Now, we need Grumman's help ... In our era of post form ... > poetry looks different, and novels are composed (rarely) of verse ... & > prose poems & flash fiction are nearly identical ... it's all too confusing > ... perhaps only someone trained in mathmatics can be of use ... > > Re-reading Gary Synder ... I'm convinced that he's the most erudite poet we > currently have ... a national treasure. > > --- On *Mon, 10/24/11, stephen russell > >* wrote: > > > From: stephen russell > > > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > To: "NewPoetry List" > > > Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 3:37 PM > > Or semantics. & semantically speaking, perhaps the sentence is the main > form of all written communication ... or contemporary written language. & > verse is merely form > composed of the sentence, of sound. > > --- On *Sun, 10/23/11, Michael Snider > >* wrote: > > > From: Michael Snider > > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > To: "NewPoetry List" > > > Date: Sunday, October 23, 2011, 8:09 PM > > Exactly right, Bill. > > www.mikesnider.org > > On Oct 23, 2011, at 19:43, "Bill Morgan" wrote: > > The line IS poetry. > > --Bob > > > Don?t want to start a fight, but Bob, wouldn?t it be more accurate to say > that ?The line IS verse?? I?d say that meaningful repetition (in lines, > sounds, visual elements, etc.) IS poetry. And not all poetry is verse, > right? > > Bill Morgan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ******** > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 18:20:43 2011 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 18:20:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: References: <1319485060.94605.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1319489078.31949.YahooMailClassic@web161920.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Edgar Cayce poetics? --Jeff Newberry On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 5:09 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Take a nap, Stephen. All will be made known to you. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 3:44 PM, stephen russell < > poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: > >> of course, none of this explains the difference between contemporary >> poetry & prose. Back in the day, it was easy. Back when meter was meter, and >> iambs were iambs. Now, we need Grumman's help ... In our era of post form >> ... poetry looks different, and novels are composed (rarely) of verse ... & >> prose poems & flash fiction are nearly identical ... it's all too confusing >> ... perhaps only someone trained in mathmatics can be of use ... >> >> Re-reading Gary Synder ... I'm convinced that he's the most erudite poet >> we currently have ... a national treasure. >> >> --- On *Mon, 10/24/11, stephen russell *wrote: >> >> >> From: stephen russell >> >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >> To: "NewPoetry List" >> Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 3:37 PM >> >> Or semantics. & semantically speaking, perhaps the sentence is the main >> form of all written communication ... or contemporary written language. & >> verse is merely form >> composed of the sentence, of sound. >> >> --- On *Sun, 10/23/11, Michael Snider * wrote: >> >> >> From: Michael Snider >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >> To: "NewPoetry List" >> Date: Sunday, October 23, 2011, 8:09 PM >> >> Exactly right, Bill. >> >> www.mikesnider.org >> >> On Oct 23, 2011, at 19:43, "Bill Morgan" wrote: >> >> The line IS poetry. >> >> >> >> --Bob >> >> >> >> >> >> Don?t want to start a fight, but Bob, wouldn?t it be more accurate to say >> that ?The line IS verse?? I?d say that meaningful repetition (in lines, >> sounds, visual elements, etc.) IS poetry. And not all poetry is verse, >> right? >> >> >> >> Bill Morgan >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and lived syncopation. ?Yusef Komunyakaa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Mon Oct 24 18:28:09 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 15:28:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: References: <23438930.1319490957020.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1319495289.98291.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I didn't think it a silly question.? Perhaps unsophisticated, if we wanted to label it, but not silly.? I thought the real illustrative moment was the answer, which is my problem with prose poetry in the first place.? (I'm not a fan.)? I can accept it as a fusion form, ? la mixed media in visual art, but not a pure poetry.? If I let that sort of stuff within the walls, what's next?? Some guy using mathematics and colors and calling it poetry?? No.? I can't imagine it. JohnJ (And, yes, I know that my phrase "pure poetry" just set a lot of teeth to gnashing.) >________________________________ >From: Halvard Johnson >To: NewPoetry List >Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:37 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > >Or maybe just stop asking silly questions. > >?? ? > > >Serving the tri-state area. > > >Hal >Halvard Johnson >================ > >halvard at gmail.com >http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ >http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ >http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ >http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > > >Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; >Transparencies & Projections > > > > > >On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 4:15 PM, wrote: > >It's pretty easy. It's a matter of rhythm. Think of the prose poem as a single line. Or as a directio9n tio imagine it as a single line. Which does get one to read it in a particular way. >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>>From: John Jeffrey >>>Sent: Oct 24, 2011 5:11 PM >>>To: NewPoetry List >>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>> >>> >>>Interestingly, at a poetry reading last week, the poet said that his latest book was all prose poems.? Someone in the audience asked about prose poems, saying, Couldn't you just take any free verse poem, remove the line breaks, and call it a prose poem?? What makes the prose poem special? >>> >>> >>>Ah, then the fun began as the poor guy tried to explain.? There was mention of compression and images.? Of a story being told.? Of "poetic language."? Of compression (again).? Of poetic techniques.? He even mentioned Flash Fiction at one point in a sort of compare and contrast.? (The professor in him, I'm sure.)? In the end, there was still much confusion, follow-up questions left hanging in the air.? No one wanted to go through it again. >>> >>> >>>JohnJ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>>________________________________ >>>>From: stephen russell >>>>To: NewPoetry List >>>>Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 4:44 PM >>>> >>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>> >>>> >>>>of course, none of this explains the difference between contemporary poetry & prose. Back in the day, it was easy. Back when meter was meter, and iambs were iambs. Now, we need Grumman's help ... In our era of post form ... poetry looks different, and novels are composed (rarely) of verse ... & prose poems & flash fiction are nearly identical ... it's all too confusing ... perhaps only someone trained in mathmatics can be of use ... >>>> >>>>Re-reading Gary Synder ... I'm convinced that he's the most erudite poet we currently have ... a national treasure. >>>> >>>>--- On Mon, 10/24/11, stephen russell wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>From: stephen russell >>>>> >>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>>>To: "NewPoetry List" >>>>> >>>>>Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 3:37 PM >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Or semantics. & semantically speaking, perhaps the sentence is the main form of all written communication ... or contemporary written language. & verse is merely form >>>>>composed of the sentence, of sound.? >>>>> >>>>>--- On Sun, 10/23/11, Michael Snider wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>From: Michael Snider >>>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>>>>To: "NewPoetry List" >>>>>>Date: Sunday, October 23, 2011, 8:09 PM >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Exactly right, Bill. >>>>>> >>>>>>www.mikesnider.org >>>>>> >>>>>>On Oct 23, 2011, at 19:43, "Bill Morgan" wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>The line IS poetry. >>>>>>>? >>>>>>>--Bob >>>>>>>? >>>>>>>? >>>>>>>Don?t want to start a fight, but Bob, wouldn?t it be more accurate to say that ?The line IS verse??? I?d say that meaningful repetition (in lines, sounds, visual elements, etc.) IS poetry.? And not all poetry is verse, right? >>>>>>>? >>>>>>>Bill Morgan >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>>> >>>>>>-----Inline Attachment Follows----- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>> >>>>>-----Inline Attachment Follows----- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>>> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 18:50:03 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 17:50:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <1319495289.98291.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <23438930.1319490957020.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1319495289.98291.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Walls? There are walls? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 5:28 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: > I didn't think it a silly question. Perhaps unsophisticated, if we wanted > to label it, but not silly. I thought the real illustrative moment was the > answer, which is my problem with prose poetry in the first place. (I'm not > a fan.) I can accept it as a fusion form, ? la mixed media in visual art, > but not a pure poetry. If I let that sort of stuff within the walls, what's > next? Some guy using mathematics and colors and calling it poetry? No. I > can't imagine it. > > JohnJ > > (And, yes, I know that my phrase "pure poetry" just set a lot of teeth to > gnashing.) > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Halvard Johnson > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Sent:* Monday, October 24, 2011 5:37 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > Or maybe just stop asking silly questions. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 4:15 PM, wrote: > > It's pretty easy. It's a matter of rhythm. Think of the prose poem as a > single line. Or as a directio9n tio imagine it as a single line. Which does > get one to read it in a particular way. > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Jeffrey ** > Sent: Oct 24, 2011 5:11 PM > To: NewPoetry List ** > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > **** > Interestingly, at a poetry reading last week, the poet said that his latest > book was all prose poems. Someone in the audience asked about prose poems, > saying, Couldn't you just take any free verse poem, remove the line breaks, > and call it a prose poem? What makes the prose poem special? > > Ah, then the fun began as the poor guy tried to explain. There was mention > of compression and images. Of a story being told. Of "poetic language." > Of compression (again). Of poetic techniques. He even mentioned Flash > Fiction at one point in a sort of compare and contrast. (The professor in > him, I'm sure.) In the end, there was still much confusion, follow-up > questions left hanging in the air. No one wanted to go through it again. > > JohnJ > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* stephen russell > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Sent:* Monday, October 24, 2011 4:44 PM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > of course, none of this explains the difference between contemporary poetry > & prose. Back in the day, it was easy. Back when meter was meter, and iambs > were iambs. Now, we need Grumman's help ... In our era of post form ... > poetry looks different, and novels are composed (rarely) of verse ... & > prose poems & flash fiction are nearly identical ... it's all too confusing > ... perhaps only someone trained in mathmatics can be of use ... > > Re-reading Gary Synder ... I'm convinced that he's the most erudite poet we > currently have ... a national treasure. > > --- On *Mon, 10/24/11, stephen russell *wrote: > > > From: stephen russell > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 3:37 PM > > Or semantics. & semantically speaking, perhaps the sentence is the main > form of all written communication ... or contemporary written language. & > verse is merely form > composed of the sentence, of sound. > > --- On *Sun, 10/23/11, Michael Snider * wrote: > > > From: Michael Snider > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Sunday, October 23, 2011, 8:09 PM > > Exactly right, Bill. > > www.mikesnider.org > > On Oct 23, 2011, at 19:43, "Bill Morgan" wrote: > > The line IS poetry. > > --Bob > > > Don?t want to start a fight, but Bob, wouldn?t it be more accurate to say > that ?The line IS verse?? I?d say that meaningful repetition (in lines, > sounds, visual elements, etc.) IS poetry. And not all poetry is verse, > right? > > Bill Morgan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ******** > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Mon Oct 24 19:00:27 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 16:00:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: References: <23438930.1319490957020.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1319495289.98291.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1319497227.63149.YahooMailNeo@web120525.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Sure.? Ask Bob.? Poor guy's run into them time and time again. >________________________________ >From: Halvard Johnson >To: NewPoetry List >Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 6:50 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > >Walls? There are walls? > >?? ? > > >Serving the tri-state area. > > >Hal >Halvard Johnson >================ > >halvard at gmail.com >http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ >http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ >http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ >http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > > >Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; >Transparencies & Projections > > > > > >On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 5:28 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: > >I didn't think it a silly question.? Perhaps unsophisticated, if we wanted to label it, but not silly.? I thought the real illustrative moment was the answer, which is my problem with prose poetry in the first place.? (I'm not a fan.)? I can accept it as a fusion form, ? la mixed media in visual art, but not a pure poetry.? If I let that sort of stuff within the walls, what's next?? Some guy using mathematics and colors and calling it poetry?? No.? I can't imagine it. >> >> >>JohnJ >> >> >>(And, yes, I know that my phrase "pure poetry" just set a lot of teeth to gnashing.) >> >> >> >> >>>________________________________ >>>From: Halvard Johnson >>>To: NewPoetry List >>>Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:37 PM >>> >>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>> >>> >>>Or maybe just stop asking silly questions. >>> >>>?? ? >>> >>> >>>Serving the tri-state area. >>> >>> >>>Hal >>>Halvard Johnson >>>================ >>> >>>halvard at gmail.com >>>http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >>>http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ >>>http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ >>>http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ >>>http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >>> >>> >>> >>>Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; >>>Transparencies & Projections >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 4:15 PM, wrote: >>> >>>It's pretty easy. It's a matter of rhythm. Think of the prose poem as a single line. Or as a directio9n tio imagine it as a single line. Which does get one to read it in a particular way. >>>> >>>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>From: John Jeffrey >>>>>Sent: Oct 24, 2011 5:11 PM >>>>>To: NewPoetry List >>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Interestingly, at a poetry reading last week, the poet said that his latest book was all prose poems.? Someone in the audience asked about prose poems, saying, Couldn't you just take any free verse poem, remove the line breaks, and call it a prose poem?? What makes the prose poem special? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Ah, then the fun began as the poor guy tried to explain.? There was mention of compression and images.? Of a story being told.? Of "poetic language."? Of compression (again).? Of poetic techniques.? He even mentioned Flash Fiction at one point in a sort of compare and contrast.? (The professor in him, I'm sure.)? In the end, there was still much confusion, follow-up questions left hanging in the air.? No one wanted to go through it again. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>JohnJ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>________________________________ >>>>>>From: stephen russell >>>>>>To: NewPoetry List >>>>>>Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 4:44 PM >>>>>> >>>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>of course, none of this explains the difference between contemporary poetry & prose. Back in the day, it was easy. Back when meter was meter, and iambs were iambs. Now, we need Grumman's help ... In our era of post form ... poetry looks different, and novels are composed (rarely) of verse ... & prose poems & flash fiction are nearly identical ... it's all too confusing ... perhaps only someone trained in mathmatics can be of use ... >>>>>> >>>>>>Re-reading Gary Synder ... I'm convinced that he's the most erudite poet we currently have ... a national treasure. >>>>>> >>>>>>--- On Mon, 10/24/11, stephen russell wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>From: stephen russell >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>>>>>To: "NewPoetry List" >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 3:37 PM >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Or semantics. & semantically speaking, perhaps the sentence is the main form of all written communication ... or contemporary written language. & verse is merely form >>>>>>>composed of the sentence, of sound.? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>--- On Sun, 10/23/11, Michael Snider wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>From: Michael Snider >>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>>>>>>To: "NewPoetry List" >>>>>>>>Date: Sunday, October 23, 2011, 8:09 PM >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Exactly right, Bill. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>www.mikesnider.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On Oct 23, 2011, at 19:43, "Bill Morgan" wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>The line IS poetry. >>>>>>>>>? >>>>>>>>>--Bob >>>>>>>>>? >>>>>>>>>? >>>>>>>>>Don?t want to start a fight, but Bob, wouldn?t it be more accurate to say that ?The line IS verse??? I?d say that meaningful repetition (in lines, sounds, visual elements, etc.) IS poetry.? And not all poetry is verse, right? >>>>>>>>>? >>>>>>>>>Bill Morgan >>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>-----Inline Attachment Follows----- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>-----Inline Attachment Follows----- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Oct 24 19:03:17 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 19:03:17 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Message-ID: <10706326.1319497397641.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Mon Oct 24 19:08:17 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 16:08:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Call for Work: Inaugural Issue of The Barefoot Review Message-ID: <1319497697.7789.YahooMailNeo@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> The Barefoot Review publishes original written work by people who have or have had physical difficulties in their lives, from cancer to seizures, Alzheimer's to tumors. It is also a place for caretakers, families, significant others and friends to write about their experiences and relationships to the person. They are a vital part to being able to live with an illness. Submissions Guidelines The Barefoot Review is a new publication. Our purpose is to help people who have faced serious health issues. We publish twice a year, on the winter solstice and summer solstice. We look forward to reading all submissions. Who Should Submit? We are looking for submissions from two categories of people: 1) those who currently have or have survived a serious health issue and 2) those in their lives?caretakers, families, significant others and friends. From each category of people we are looking for different content. From the challenged person we are looking for any subject, especially concerning aspects of living or surviving. From people in the challenged person's life we'd like writing about the person or your relationship with him or her. Specifics We accept submissions year-round of unpublished* work. Please submit up to five poems or a short prose piece (max 1000 words) per edition. Simultaneous submissions are acceptable; however, we request that you inform us immediately if your work is accepted elsewhere. We will let you know as soon as possible if your work will be published here. * Poetry is limited to no more than 5 poems. * Prose is limited to 1000 words. * Any style is acceptable, from personal tragedy to humorous reflection, with poetry from free-verse to rhyming. Please email work in the body of the message; attached files will not be opened. Also provide a brief biography of yourself (and the person with the illness if that is not yourself). The Barefoot Review acquires first-time North American rights. After publication, all rights revert to the author and may be reprinted as long as appropriate acknowledgment to The Barefoot Review is made. * Note: published work does not include posted on personal blogs or websites. Send email with work to submissions at barefootreview.org http://www.barefootreview.org/ ********* Amy's Alias +?http://amyking.org/? ******** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Mon Oct 24 19:08:54 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 19:08:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: References: <5264842.1319408424746.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <7725560278E941F0B1D42BCDA0CC9FEA@BobHP> <004301c c91dd$91d64380$b582ca80$@ilstu.edu> <1319420278.59311.YahooMailNeo@web120529.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This time I'm with you, Bob Sent from my iPhone On Oct 24, 2011, at 11:36 AM, "bob grumman" wrote: > So, what do you call the words that go from one side of a page to somewhere in the middle in what is called free verse? And how can writers of free verse make line-endings if their poems don?t have lines? ?Lineation? is the use of word-sequences that end at a place determined by their creators, not at a page?s righthand margin, or near it (except at the end of paragraphs). Those word-sequences are called ?lines.? Hence, the word,?lineation.? A key interest of any poet is in the line as a line?that, more than anything else, differentiates him from a prose writer. You guys are nuts. > > --Bob > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 19:05:12 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 18:05:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <1319497227.63149.YahooMailNeo@web120525.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <23438930.1319490957020.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1319495289.98291.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1319497227.63149.YahooMailNeo@web120525.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Broke his nose many times, I'm sure. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 6:00 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: > Sure. Ask Bob. Poor guy's run into them time and time again. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Halvard Johnson > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Sent:* Monday, October 24, 2011 6:50 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > Walls? There are walls? > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 5:28 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: > > I didn't think it a silly question. Perhaps unsophisticated, if we wanted > to label it, but not silly. I thought the real illustrative moment was the > answer, which is my problem with prose poetry in the first place. (I'm not > a fan.) I can accept it as a fusion form, ? la mixed media in visual art, > but not a pure poetry. If I let that sort of stuff within the walls, what's > next? Some guy using mathematics and colors and calling it poetry? No. I > can't imagine it. > > JohnJ > > (And, yes, I know that my phrase "pure poetry" just set a lot of teeth to > gnashing.) > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Halvard Johnson > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Sent:* Monday, October 24, 2011 5:37 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > Or maybe just stop asking silly questions. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 4:15 PM, wrote: > > It's pretty easy. It's a matter of rhythm. Think of the prose poem as a > single line. Or as a directio9n tio imagine it as a single line. Which does > get one to read it in a particular way. > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Jeffrey ** > Sent: Oct 24, 2011 5:11 PM > To: NewPoetry List ** > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > **** > Interestingly, at a poetry reading last week, the poet said that his latest > book was all prose poems. Someone in the audience asked about prose poems, > saying, Couldn't you just take any free verse poem, remove the line breaks, > and call it a prose poem? What makes the prose poem special? > > Ah, then the fun began as the poor guy tried to explain. There was mention > of compression and images. Of a story being told. Of "poetic language." > Of compression (again). Of poetic techniques. He even mentioned Flash > Fiction at one point in a sort of compare and contrast. (The professor in > him, I'm sure.) In the end, there was still much confusion, follow-up > questions left hanging in the air. No one wanted to go through it again. > > JohnJ > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* stephen russell > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Sent:* Monday, October 24, 2011 4:44 PM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > of course, none of this explains the difference between contemporary poetry > & prose. Back in the day, it was easy. Back when meter was meter, and iambs > were iambs. Now, we need Grumman's help ... In our era of post form ... > poetry looks different, and novels are composed (rarely) of verse ... & > prose poems & flash fiction are nearly identical ... it's all too confusing > ... perhaps only someone trained in mathmatics can be of use ... > > Re-reading Gary Synder ... I'm convinced that he's the most erudite poet we > currently have ... a national treasure. > > --- On *Mon, 10/24/11, stephen russell *wrote: > > > From: stephen russell > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 3:37 PM > > Or semantics. & semantically speaking, perhaps the sentence is the main > form of all written communication ... or contemporary written language. & > verse is merely form > composed of the sentence, of sound. > > --- On *Sun, 10/23/11, Michael Snider * wrote: > > > From: Michael Snider > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Sunday, October 23, 2011, 8:09 PM > > Exactly right, Bill. > > www.mikesnider.org > > On Oct 23, 2011, at 19:43, "Bill Morgan" wrote: > > The line IS poetry. > > --Bob > > > Don?t want to start a fight, but Bob, wouldn?t it be more accurate to say > that ?The line IS verse?? I?d say that meaningful repetition (in lines, > sounds, visual elements, etc.) IS poetry. And not all poetry is verse, > right? > > Bill Morgan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ******** > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Mon Oct 24 19:19:42 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 16:19:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <10706326.1319497397641.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <10706326.1319497397641.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1319498382.35174.YahooMailNeo@web120528.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I've read these folks (though not much Jacob) and more.? I know it's endless.? That prose poetry is being written is not the point? I've even liked some prose poems.? But every time I read one, I wish the writer had added line breaks.? That's all.? Otherwise, to me,...meh.? It's as if it's trying to balance between worlds, and I think it's weakens the form. >________________________________ >From: "junction at earthlink.net" >To: NewPoetry List >Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 7:03 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > >John: You might want to check out Baudelaire, Rimbaud, Jacob, etc., and maybe Spicer. But it's pretty endless. > > >-----Original Message----- >>From: John Jeffrey >>Sent: Oct 24, 2011 6:28 PM >>To: NewPoetry List >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >> >> >>I didn't think it a silly question.? Perhaps unsophisticated, if we wanted to label it, but not silly.? I thought the real illustrative moment was the answer, which is my problem with prose poetry in the first place.? (I'm not a fan.)? I can accept it as a fusion form, ? la mixed media in visual art, but not a pure poetry.? If I let that sort of stuff within the walls, what's next?? Some guy using mathematics and colors and calling it poetry?? No.? I can't imagine it. >> >> >>JohnJ >> >> >>(And, yes, I know that my phrase "pure poetry" just set a lot of teeth to gnashing.) >> >> >> >> >>>________________________________ >>>From: Halvard Johnson >>>To: NewPoetry List >>>Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:37 PM >>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>> >>> >>>Or maybe just stop asking silly questions. >>> >>>?? ? >>> >>> >>>Serving the tri-state area. >>> >>> >>>Hal >>>Halvard Johnson >>>================ >>> >>>halvard at gmail.com >>>http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >>>http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ >>>http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ >>>http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ >>>http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >>> >>> >>> >>>Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; >>>Transparencies & Projections >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 4:15 PM, wrote: >>> >>>It's pretty easy. It's a matter of rhythm. Think of the prose poem as a single line. Or as a directio9n tio imagine it as a single line. Which does get one to read it in a particular way. >>>> >>>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>From: John Jeffrey >>>>>Sent: Oct 24, 2011 5:11 PM >>>>>To: NewPoetry List >>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Interestingly, at a poetry reading last week, the poet said that his latest book was all prose poems.? Someone in the audience asked about prose poems, saying, Couldn't you just take any free verse poem, remove the line breaks, and call it a prose poem?? What makes the prose poem special? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Ah, then the fun began as the poor guy tried to explain.? There was mention of compression and images.? Of a story being told.? Of "poetic language."? Of compression (again).? Of poetic techniques.? He even mentioned Flash Fiction at one point in a sort of compare and contrast.? (The professor in him, I'm sure.)? In the end, there was still much confusion, follow-up questions left hanging in the air.? No one wanted to go through it again. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>JohnJ >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>________________________________ >>>>>>From: stephen russell >>>>>>To: NewPoetry List >>>>>>Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 4:44 PM >>>>>> >>>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>of course, none of this explains the difference between contemporary poetry & prose. Back in the day, it was easy. Back when meter was meter, and iambs were iambs. Now, we need Grumman's help ... In our era of post form ... poetry looks different, and novels are composed (rarely) of verse ... & prose poems & flash fiction are nearly identical ... it's all too confusing ... perhaps only someone trained in mathmatics can be of use ... >>>>>> >>>>>>Re-reading Gary Synder ... I'm convinced that he's the most erudite poet we currently have ... a national treasure. >>>>>> >>>>>>--- On Mon, 10/24/11, stephen russell wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>From: stephen russell >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>>>>>To: "NewPoetry List" >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 3:37 PM >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Or semantics. & semantically speaking, perhaps the sentence is the main form of all written communication ... or contemporary written language. & verse is merely form >>>>>>>composed of the sentence, of sound.? >>>>>>> >>>>>>>--- On Sun, 10/23/11, Michael Snider wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>From: Michael Snider >>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>>>>>>To: "NewPoetry List" >>>>>>>>Date: Sunday, October 23, 2011, 8:09 PM >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Exactly right, Bill. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>www.mikesnider.org >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>On Oct 23, 2011, at 19:43, "Bill Morgan" wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>The line IS poetry. >>>>>>>>>? >>>>>>>>>--Bob >>>>>>>>>? >>>>>>>>>? >>>>>>>>>Don?t want to start a fight, but Bob, wouldn?t it be more accurate to say that ?The line IS verse??? I?d say that meaningful repetition (in lines, sounds, visual elements, etc.) IS poetry.? And not all poetry is verse, right? >>>>>>>>>? >>>>>>>>>Bill Morgan >>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>-----Inline Attachment Follows----- >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>-----Inline Attachment Follows----- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >>> >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Mon Oct 24 19:14:09 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 19:14:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <1891970.1319491061568.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <1891970.1319491061568.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: And with you on this one. Do I contradict myself? Very well, I contradict myself. But containing multitudes just reminds me of how little of me is me. On Oct 24, 2011, at 5:17 PM, junction at earthlink.net wrote: > Besides, if it works who cares what it's called? > -----Original Message----- > From: junction at earthlink.net > Sent: Oct 24, 2011 5:15 PM > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > It's pretty easy. It's a matter of rhythm. Think of the prose poem as a single line. Or as a directio9n tio imagine it as a single line. Which does get one to read it in a particular way. > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Jeffrey > Sent: Oct 24, 2011 5:11 PM > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > Interestingly, at a poetry reading last week, the poet said that his latest book was all prose poems. Someone in the audience asked about prose poems, saying, Couldn't you just take any free verse poem, remove the line breaks, and call it a prose poem? What makes the prose poem special? > > Ah, then the fun began as the poor guy tried to explain. There was mention of compression and images. Of a story being told. Of "poetic language." Of compression (again). Of poetic techniques. He even mentioned Flash Fiction at one point in a sort of compare and contrast. (The professor in him, I'm sure.) In the end, there was still much confusion, follow-up questions left hanging in the air. No one wanted to go through it again. > > JohnJ > > > From: stephen russell > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 4:44 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > of course, none of this explains the difference between contemporary poetry & prose. Back in the day, it was easy. Back when meter was meter, and iambs were iambs. Now, we need Grumman's help ... In our era of post form ... poetry looks different, and novels are composed (rarely) of verse ... & prose poems & flash fiction are nearly identical ... it's all too confusing ... perhaps only someone trained in mathmatics can be of use ... > > Re-reading Gary Synder ... I'm convinced that he's the most erudite poet we currently have ... a national treasure. > > --- On Mon, 10/24/11, stephen russell wrote: > > From: stephen russell > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 3:37 PM > > Or semantics. & semantically speaking, perhaps the sentence is the main form of all written communication ... or contemporary written language. & verse is merely form > composed of the sentence, of sound. > > --- On Sun, 10/23/11, Michael Snider wrote: > > From: Michael Snider > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Sunday, October 23, 2011, 8:09 PM > > Exactly right, Bill. > > www.mikesnider.org > > On Oct 23, 2011, at 19:43, "Bill Morgan" wrote: > >> The line IS poetry. >> >> --Bob >> >> >> Don?t want to start a fight, but Bob, wouldn?t it be more accurate to say that ?The line IS verse?? I?d say that meaningful repetition (in lines, sounds, visual elements, etc.) IS poetry. And not all poetry is verse, right? >> >> Bill Morgan >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Oct 24 19:25:38 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 19:25:38 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Message-ID: <26441414.1319498738925.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Oct 24 19:27:09 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 19:27:09 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Message-ID: <32163862.1319498829614.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Mon Oct 24 19:49:28 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 19:49:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem In-Reply-To: <1319495289.98291.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <23438930.1319490957020.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1319495289.98291.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CE60BEB3E2B8D4-1008-644CB@webmail-m103.sysops.aol.com> I think the problem lies in the simplistic question: What makes lines in verse a poem? Nothing does; verse lines don't make a poem. The poem eludes easy/simple definition whether written in broken lines or whether it's using vast and robust resources of the prose sentence and getting comfortable with the right margin. Within a few seconds one could reel off dozens of features of poems (like the line) and the line would be just one feature (or one attribute) of a poem. If all it took to write a poem was to break your lines before they reached the right margin....wouldn't that be simple? Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: John Jeffrey To: NewPoetry List Sent: Mon, Oct 24, 2011 6:37 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line I didn't think it a silly question. Perhaps unsophisticated, if we wanted to label it, but not silly. I thought the real illustrative moment was the answer, which is my problem with prose poetry in the first place. (I'm not a fan.) I can accept it as a fusion form, ? la mixed media in visual art, but not a pure poetry. If I let that sort of stuff within the walls, what's next? Some guy using mathematics and colors and calling it poetry? No. I can't imagine it. JohnJ (And, yes, I know that my phrase "pure poetry" just set a lot of teeth to gnashing.) From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry List Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:37 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Or maybe just stop asking silly questions. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 4:15 PM, wrote: It's pretty easy. It's a matter of rhythm. Think of the prose poem as a single line. Or as a directio9n tio imagine it as a single line. Which does get one to read it in a particular way. -----Original Message----- From: John Jeffrey Sent: Oct 24, 2011 5:11 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Interestingly, at a poetry reading last week, the poet said that his latest book was all prose poems. Someone in the audience asked about prose poems, saying, Couldn't you just take any free verse poem, remove the line breaks, and call it a prose poem? What makes the prose poem special? Ah, then the fun began as the poor guy tried to explain. There was mention of compression and images. Of a story being told. Of "poetic language." Of compression (again). Of poetic techniques. He even mentioned Flash Fiction at one point in a sort of compare and contrast. (The professor in him, I'm sure.) In the end, there was still much confusion, follow-up questions left hanging in the air. No one wanted to go through it again. JohnJ From: stephen russell To: NewPoetry List Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line of course, none of this explains the difference between contemporary poetry & prose. Back in the day, it was easy. Back when meter was meter, and iambs were iambs. Now, we need Grumman's help ... In our era of post form ... poetry looks different, and novels are composed (rarely) of verse ... & prose poems & flash fiction are nearly identical ... it's all too confusing ... perhaps only someone trained in mathmatics can be of use ... Re-reading Gary Synder ... I'm convinced that he's the most erudite poet we currently have ... a national treasure. --- On Mon, 10/24/11, stephen russell wrote: From: stephen russell Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 3:37 PM Or semantics. & semantically speaking, perhaps the sentence is the main form of all written communication ... or contemporary written language. & verse is merely form composed of the sentence, of sound. --- On Sun, 10/23/11, Michael Snider wrote: From: Michael Snider Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Sunday, October 23, 2011, 8:09 PM Exactly right, Bill. www.mikesnider.org On Oct 23, 2011, at 19:43, "Bill Morgan" wrote: The line IS poetry. --Bob Don?t want to start a fight, but Bob, wouldn?t it be more accurate to say that ?The line IS verse?? I?d say that meaningful repetition (in lines, sounds, visual elements, etc.) IS poetry. And not all poetry is verse, right? Bill Morgan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Mon Oct 24 20:01:46 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 20:01:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: References: <1319485060.94605.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><1319489078.31949.YahooMailClassic@web161920.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CE60C06B4FBDC8-1008-647F7@webmail-m103.sysops.aol.com> Re the intro to Broken Things... http://jjgallaher.blogspot.com/2011/09/broken-thing-poets-on-line-pt-ii.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Mon Oct 24 20:14:24 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 17:14:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <26441414.1319498738925.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <26441414.1319498738925.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1319501664.24439.YahooMailNeo@web120525.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I think that argument is flawed. ?I don't imagine that most prose poets are, in their minds, writing a long one-line poem. ?In fact, I've seen some prose poems with paragraphs. I've seen a few one-line, even one-word, comic poems that I've liked. ?But other than that, nuttin'.? But no, I don't have a line "length limit." ?A hundred word line followed by a few more hundred word lines might a poem make. ?It's more that I just want lines (plural) in my poetry. ?I'm simple that way.? >________________________________ >From: "junction at earthlink.net" >To: NewPoetry List >Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 7:25 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > >OK, what if I were to write a hundred word line? How about Biblical verses? Do you conceive of a length limit beyond which a line of poetry is no longer verse? Just trying to get specific here. > > >-----Original Message----- >>From: John Jeffrey >>Sent: Oct 24, 2011 7:19 PM >>To: NewPoetry List >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >> >> >>I've read these folks (though not much Jacob) and more.? I know it's endless.? That prose poetry is being written is not the point? I've even liked some prose poems.? But every time I read one, I wish the writer had added line breaks.? That's all.? Otherwise, to me,...meh.? It's as if it's trying to balance between worlds, and I think it's weakens the form. >> >> >> >> >>>________________________________ >>>From: "junction at earthlink.net" >>>To: NewPoetry List >>>Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 7:03 PM >>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>> >>> >>>John: You might want to check out Baudelaire, Rimbaud, Jacob, etc., and maybe Spicer. But it's pretty endless. >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: John Jeffrey >>>>Sent: Oct 24, 2011 6:28 PM >>>>To: NewPoetry List >>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>> >>>> >>>>I didn't think it a silly question.? Perhaps unsophisticated, if we wanted to label it, but not silly.? I thought the real illustrative moment was the answer, which is my problem with prose poetry in the first place.? (I'm not a fan.)? I can accept it as a fusion form, ? la mixed media in visual art, but not a pure poetry.? If I let that sort of stuff within the walls, what's next?? Some guy using mathematics and colors and calling it poetry?? No.? I can't imagine it. >>>> >>>> >>>>JohnJ >>>> >>>> >>>>(And, yes, I know that my phrase "pure poetry" just set a lot of teeth to gnashing.) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>________________________________ >>>>>From: Halvard Johnson >>>>>To: NewPoetry List >>>>>Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:37 PM >>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Or maybe just stop asking silly questions. >>>>> >>>>>?? ? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Serving the tri-state area. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Hal >>>>>Halvard Johnson >>>>>================ >>>>> >>>>>halvard at gmail.com >>>>>http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >>>>>http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ >>>>>http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ >>>>>http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ >>>>>http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; >>>>>Transparencies & Projections >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 4:15 PM, wrote: >>>>> >>>>>It's pretty easy. It's a matter of rhythm. Think of the prose poem as a single line. Or as a directio9n tio imagine it as a single line. Which does get one to read it in a particular way. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>>>From: John Jeffrey >>>>>>>Sent: Oct 24, 2011 5:11 PM >>>>>>>To: NewPoetry List >>>>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Interestingly, at a poetry reading last week, the poet said that his latest book was all prose poems.? Someone in the audience asked about prose poems, saying, Couldn't you just take any free verse poem, remove the line breaks, and call it a prose poem?? What makes the prose poem special? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Ah, then the fun began as the poor guy tried to explain.? There was mention of compression and images.? Of a story being told.? Of "poetic language."? Of compression (again).? Of poetic techniques.? He even mentioned Flash Fiction at one point in a sort of compare and contrast.? (The professor in him, I'm sure.)? In the end, there was still much confusion, follow-up questions left hanging in the air.? No one wanted to go through it again. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>JohnJ >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>________________________________ >>>>>>>>From: stephen russell >>>>>>>>To: NewPoetry List >>>>>>>>Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 4:44 PM >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>of course, none of this explains the difference between contemporary poetry & prose. Back in the day, it was easy. Back when meter was meter, and iambs were iambs. Now, we need Grumman's help ... In our era of post form ... poetry looks different, and novels are composed (rarely) of verse ... & prose poems & flash fiction are nearly identical ... it's all too confusing ... perhaps only someone trained in mathmatics can be of use ... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Re-reading Gary Synder ... I'm convinced that he's the most erudite poet we currently have ... a national treasure. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>--- On Mon, 10/24/11, stephen russell wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>From: stephen russell >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>>>>>>>To: "NewPoetry List" >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 3:37 PM >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Or semantics. & semantically speaking, perhaps the sentence is the main form of all written communication ... or contemporary written language. & verse is merely form >>>>>>>>>composed of the sentence, of sound.? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>--- On Sun, 10/23/11, Michael Snider wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>From: Michael Snider >>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>>>>>>>>To: "NewPoetry List" >>>>>>>>>>Date: Sunday, October 23, 2011, 8:09 PM >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Exactly right, Bill. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>www.mikesnider.org >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>On Oct 23, 2011, at 19:43, "Bill Morgan" wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>The line IS poetry. >>>>>>>>>>>? >>>>>>>>>>>--Bob >>>>>>>>>>>? >>>>>>>>>>>? >>>>>>>>>>>Don?t want to start a fight, but Bob, wouldn?t it be more accurate to say that ?The line IS verse??? I?d say that meaningful repetition (in lines, sounds, visual elements, etc.) IS poetry.? And not all poetry is verse, right? >>>>>>>>>>>? >>>>>>>>>>>Bill Morgan >>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>>>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>-----Inline Attachment Follows----- >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>-----Inline Attachment Follows----- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >>> >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Mon Oct 24 20:17:54 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 17:17:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1319501874.52652.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Thanks for posting, Anny.? From Anny's link: "Immediately following her death, the interdisciplinary group of artists associated with Black Mountain College in North Carolina and Judson Church in New York City embraced Stein?s linguistic play, theater pieces, and operas." Why do you think this is?? Why, to put it crassly, are the queers so prominent in the arts?? I mean, as innovators?? I ask, not to be self-serving (though I am), but I'm curious what the not-queers think.? I entered a horribly crass thread that asked something similar (Just How Many Poets are NOT Queer, Anyway?- http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/12/01/just-how-many-poets-are-not-queer-anyway/) - is there some merit to such a question?? As it relates to innovative work?? Judith / Jack Halberstam speculates deeply on the connection between queers and innovation, among other things.? But I'm wondering, as noted, what the not-queer think.? If I may put it so ... queerly. Amy From an online essay (quickly, randomesque): ?"Queer uses of time and space develop, at least in part, in opposition to the institutions of family, heterosexuality, and reproduction." --Judith Halberstam, In a Queer Time and Place If technology becomes gendered through mainstream society, queer technology mutates and confuses these binaries, just as Judith Halberstam writes of ?mutual mutation.?8 John Cage, the father of experimental aural processes, has caused numerous studies in queer musicology to pop up based on his homosexual lifestyle and works / teachings with audio technologies. Again, during the Conceptual Art movement of the 1960s, artists revolted against the idea of art as an object of beauty and began to focus on process-based ideas. Blah blah: http://www.jstor.org/pss/4539813 ********* Amy's Alias +?http://amyking.org/? ******** ________________________________ From: Anny Ballardini To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 3:29 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein http://www.npg.si.edu/exhibit/stein/legacies.html -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Mon Oct 24 20:50:40 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 17:50:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <1319501664.24439.YahooMailNeo@web120525.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1319503840.84952.YahooMailClassic@web161914.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ... don't know where i agree/not so sure what i'm agreeing with .... seems Baudilaire is at fault for the prose poem ... Russell Edson/ the great contemporary master. I think it comes down to something as simple as what the particular poet chooses to define as prose. I remember first getting interested in the form way back ... college ... read a few by Karl Shapiro, and prefered them to his more formal (no free verse) poetry. --- On Mon, 10/24/11, John Jeffrey wrote: From: John Jeffrey Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 8:14 PM I think that argument is flawed. ?I don't imagine that most prose poets are, in their minds, writing a long one-line poem. ?In fact, I've seen some prose poems with paragraphs. I've seen a few one-line, even one-word, comic poems that I've liked. ?But other than that, nuttin'.? But no, I don't have a line "length limit." ?A hundred word line followed by a few more hundred word lines might a poem make. ?It's more that I just want lines (plural) in my poetry. ?I'm simple that way.? From: "junction at earthlink.net" To: NewPoetry List Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 7:25 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line #yiv898551717 {font-family:Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:9pt;background-color:#ffffff;color:black;} OK, what if I were to write a hundred word line? How about Biblical verses? Do you conceive of a length limit beyond which a line of poetry is no longer verse? Just trying to get specific here. -----Original Message----- From: John Jeffrey Sent: Oct 24, 2011 7:19 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line I've read these folks (though not much Jacob) and more.? I know it's endless.? That prose poetry is being written is not the point? I've even liked some prose poems.? But every time I read one, I wish the writer had added line breaks.? That's all.? Otherwise, to me,...meh.? It's as if it's trying to balance between worlds, and I think it's weakens the form. From: "junction at earthlink.net" To: NewPoetry List Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 7:03 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line #yiv898551717 {font-family:Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:9pt;background-color:#ffffff;color:black;} John: You might want to check out Baudelaire, Rimbaud, Jacob, etc., and maybe Spicer. But it's pretty endless. -----Original Message----- From: John Jeffrey Sent: Oct 24, 2011 6:28 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line I didn't think it a silly question.? Perhaps unsophisticated, if we wanted to label it, but not silly.? I thought the real illustrative moment was the answer, which is my problem with prose poetry in the first place.? (I'm not a fan.)? I can accept it as a fusion form, ? la mixed media in visual art, but not a pure poetry.? If I let that sort of stuff within the walls, what's next?? Some guy using mathematics and colors and calling it poetry?? No.? I can't imagine it. JohnJ (And, yes, I know that my phrase "pure poetry" just set a lot of teeth to gnashing.) From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry List Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:37 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Or maybe just stop asking silly questions. ?? ? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 4:15 PM, wrote: It's pretty easy. It's a matter of rhythm. Think of the prose poem as a single line. Or as a directio9n tio imagine it as a single line. Which does get one to read it in a particular way. -----Original Message----- From: John Jeffrey Sent: Oct 24, 2011 5:11 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Interestingly, at a poetry reading last week, the poet said that his latest book was all prose poems.? Someone in the audience asked about prose poems, saying, Couldn't you just take any free verse poem, remove the line breaks, and call it a prose poem?? What makes the prose poem special? Ah, then the fun began as the poor guy tried to explain.? There was mention of compression and images.? Of a story being told.? Of "poetic language."? Of compression (again).? Of poetic techniques.? He even mentioned Flash Fiction at one point in a sort of compare and contrast.? (The professor in him, I'm sure.)? In the end, there was still much confusion, follow-up questions left hanging in the air.? No one wanted to go through it again. JohnJ From: stephen russell To: NewPoetry List Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line of course, none of this explains the difference between contemporary poetry & prose. Back in the day, it was easy. Back when meter was meter, and iambs were iambs. Now, we need Grumman's help ... In our era of post form ... poetry looks different, and novels are composed (rarely) of verse ... & prose poems & flash fiction are nearly identical ... it's all too confusing ... perhaps only someone trained in mathmatics can be of use ... Re-reading Gary Synder ... I'm convinced that he's the most erudite poet we currently have ... a national treasure. --- On Mon, 10/24/11, stephen russell wrote: From: stephen russell Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 3:37 PM Or semantics. & semantically speaking, perhaps the sentence is the main form of all written communication ... or contemporary written language. & verse is merely form composed of the sentence, of sound.? --- On Sun, 10/23/11, Michael Snider wrote: From: Michael Snider Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Sunday, October 23, 2011, 8:09 PM Exactly right, Bill. www.mikesnider.org On Oct 23, 2011, at 19:43, "Bill Morgan" wrote: The line IS poetry. ? --Bob ? ? Don?t want to start a fight, but Bob, wouldn?t it be more accurate to say that ?The line IS verse??? I?d say that meaningful repetition (in lines, sounds, visual elements, etc.) IS poetry.? And not all poetry is verse, right? ? Bill Morgan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Oct 24 20:58:46 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 20:58:46 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Message-ID: <30173393.1319504326509.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Mon Oct 24 20:52:34 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 17:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem In-Reply-To: <8CE60BEB3E2B8D4-1008-644CB@webmail-m103.sysops.aol.com> References: <23438930.1319490957020.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1319495289.98291.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8CE60BEB3E2B8D4-1008-644CB@webmail-m103.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1319503954.18385.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> James, this may be the knot. ?A poem is a poem is a... doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. ?I haven't been talking about poetry in the grand artistic sense, but in the simple descriptive sense. ?The same way I might say "painting" in regards to a Van Gogh or an adult ed art project or a grade schooler's finger-painting. ?So in that regard, sure, it's easy to write a poem--"break your?lines before they reach the right margin." ?It may not be a good one, but it's a poem. JohnJ >________________________________ >From: "jforjames at aol.com" >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 7:49 PM >Subject: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem > > >I think the problem lies in the simplistic?question: What?makes lines in verse a poem? Nothing does; verse lines don't make a poem.?The poem eludes easy/simple definition whether written in broken lines?or whether?it's using vast and robust resources of the prose sentence and getting comfortable with the?right margin. Within a few seconds one could reel off dozens of features of poems (like the line) and the line would be just one feature (or one attribute) of a poem. If all it took?to write a poem?was to break your?lines before they reached the right margin....wouldn't that be simple? >Finnegan > >-----Original Message----- >From: John Jeffrey >To: NewPoetry List >Sent: Mon, Oct 24, 2011 6:37 pm >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > >I didn't think it a silly question.? Perhaps unsophisticated, if we wanted to label it, but not silly.? I thought the real illustrative moment was the answer, which is my problem with prose poetry in the first place.? (I'm not a fan.)? I can accept it as a fusion form, ? la mixed media in visual art, but not a pure poetry.? If I let that sort of stuff within the walls, what's next?? Some guy using mathematics and colors and calling it poetry?? No.? I can't imagine it. > > >JohnJ > > >(And, yes, I know that my phrase "pure poetry" just set a lot of teeth to gnashing.) > > > > >>________________________________ >> From: Halvard Johnson >>To: NewPoetry List >>Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:37 PM >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >> >> >>Or maybe just stop asking silly questions. >> >>?? ? >> >> >>Serving the tri-state area. >> >> >>Hal >>Halvard Johnson >>================ >> >>halvard at gmail.com >>http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >>http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ >>http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ >>http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ >>http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >> >> >> >>Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; >>Transparencies & Projections >> >> >> >> >> >>On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 4:15 PM, wrote: >> >>It's pretty easy. It's a matter of rhythm. Think of the prose poem as a single line. Or as a directio9n tio imagine it as a single line. Which does get one to read it in a particular way. >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: John Jeffrey >>>>Sent: Oct 24, 2011 5:11 PM >>>>To: NewPoetry List >>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>> >>>> >>>>Interestingly, at a poetry reading last week, the poet said that his latest book was all prose poems.? Someone in the audience asked about prose poems, saying, Couldn't you just take any free verse poem, remove the line breaks, and call it a prose poem?? What makes the prose poem special? >>>> >>>> >>>>Ah, then the fun began as the poor guy tried to explain.? There was mention of compression and images.? Of a story being told.? Of "poetic language."? Of compression (again).? Of poetic techniques.? He even mentioned Flash Fiction at one point in a sort of compare and contrast.? (The professor in him, I'm sure.)? In the end, there was still much confusion, follow-up questions left hanging in the air.? No one wanted to go through it again. >>>> >>>> >>>>JohnJ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>________________________________ >>>>> From: stephen russell >>>>>To: NewPoetry List >>>>>Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 4:44 PM >>>>> >>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>of course, none of this explains the difference between contemporary poetry & prose. Back in the day, it was easy. Back when meter was meter, and iambs were iambs. Now, we need Grumman's help ... In our era of post form ... poetry looks different, and novels are composed (rarely) of verse ... & prose poems & flash fiction are nearly identical ... it's all too confusing ... perhaps only someone trained in mathmatics can be of use ... >>>>> >>>>>Re-reading Gary Synder ... I'm convinced that he's the most erudite poet we currently have ... a national treasure. >>>>> >>>>>--- On Mon, 10/24/11, stephen russell wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>From: stephen russell >>>>>> >>>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>>>>To: "NewPoetry List" >>>>>> >>>>>>Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 3:37 PM >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Or semantics. & semantically speaking, perhaps the sentence is the main form of all written communication ... or contemporary written language. & verse is merely form >>>>>>composed of the sentence, of sound.? >>>>>> >>>>>>--- On Sun, 10/23/11, Michael Snider wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>From: Michael Snider >>>>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>>>>>To: "NewPoetry List" >>>>>>>Date: Sunday, October 23, 2011, 8:09 PM >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Exactly right, Bill. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>www.mikesnider.org >>>>>>> >>>>>>>On Oct 23, 2011, at 19:43, "Bill Morgan" wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>The line IS poetry. >>>>>>>>? >>>>>>>>--Bob >>>>>>>>? >>>>>>>>? >>>>>>>>Don?t want to start a fight, but Bob, wouldn?t it be more accurate to say that ?The line IS verse??? I?d say that meaningful repetition (in lines, sounds, visual elements, etc.) IS poetry.? And not all poetry is verse, right? >>>>>>>>? >>>>>>>>Bill Morgan >>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>-----Inline Attachment Follows----- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>>> >>>>>>-----Inline Attachment Follows----- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu Mon Oct 24 21:14:44 2011 From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 20:14:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem In-Reply-To: <1319503954.18385.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <23438930.1319490957020.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1319495289.98291.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8CE60BEB3E2B8D4-1008-644CB@webmail-m103.sysops.aol.com> <1319503954.18385.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01db01cc92b3$7b1ea930$715bfb90$@ilstu.edu> --"break your lines before they reach the right margin." It may not be a good one, but it's a poem. I say it isn?t necessarily a poem; it?s verse. I don?t quite understand why this discussion seems again and again to conflate the two: poetry=verse; verse=poetry. This discussion (for some participants) seems to be stuck on the dichotomy of poetry vs. prose?asking how is poetry different from prose? I?m not even sure why it would be valuable to be able to answer that question. Surely a better, more interesting question is one that escapes the dichotomy and asks ?How is poetry different from everything else in the world?? BTW, John, my functional definition of a prose poem is a piece of writing that utilizes or may utilize all the language resources of poetry except the line. Cheers, Bill Morgan From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of John Jeffrey Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 7:53 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem James, this may be the knot. A poem is a poem is a... doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. I haven't been talking about poetry in the grand artistic sense, but in the simple descriptive sense. The same way I might say "painting" in regards to a Van Gogh or an adult ed art project or a grade schooler's finger-painting. So in that regard, sure, it's easy to write a poem--"break your lines before they reach the right margin." It may not be a good one, but it's a poem. JohnJ _____ From: "jforjames at aol.com" To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 7:49 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem I think the problem lies in the simplistic question: What makes lines in verse a poem? Nothing does; verse lines don't make a poem. The poem eludes easy/simple definition whether written in broken lines or whether it's using vast and robust resources of the prose sentence and getting comfortable with the right margin. Within a few seconds one could reel off dozens of features of poems (like the line) and the line would be just one feature (or one attribute) of a poem. If all it took to write a poem was to break your lines before they reached the right margin....wouldn't that be simple? Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: John Jeffrey To: NewPoetry List Sent: Mon, Oct 24, 2011 6:37 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line I didn't think it a silly question. Perhaps unsophisticated, if we wanted to label it, but not silly. I thought the real illustrative moment was the answer, which is my problem with prose poetry in the first place. (I'm not a fan.) I can accept it as a fusion form, ? la mixed media in visual art, but not a pure poetry. If I let that sort of stuff within the walls, what's next? Some guy using mathematics and colors and calling it poetry? No. I can't imagine it. JohnJ (And, yes, I know that my phrase "pure poetry" just set a lot of teeth to gnashing.) _____ From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry List Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:37 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Or maybe just stop asking silly questions. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) , Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole ; Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; The Sonnet Project ; G(e)nome ; Winter Journey ; Eclipse ; The Dance of the Red Swan ; Transparencies & Projections On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 4:15 PM, wrote: It's pretty easy. It's a matter of rhythm. Think of the prose poem as a single line. Or as a directio9n tio imagine it as a single line. Which does get one to read it in a particular way. -----Original Message----- From: John Jeffrey Sent: Oct 24, 2011 5:11 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Interestingly, at a poetry reading last week, the poet said that his latest book was all prose poems. Someone in the audience asked about prose poems, saying, Couldn't you just take any free verse poem, remove the line breaks, and call it a prose poem? What makes the prose poem special? Ah, then the fun began as the poor guy tried to explain. There was mention of compression and images. Of a story being told. Of "poetic language." Of compression (again). Of poetic techniques. He even mentioned Flash Fiction at one point in a sort of compare and contrast. (The professor in him, I'm sure.) In the end, there was still much confusion, follow-up questions left hanging in the air. No one wanted to go through it again. JohnJ _____ From: stephen russell To: NewPoetry List Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line of course, none of this explains the difference between contemporary poetry & prose. Back in the day, it was easy. Back when meter was meter, and iambs were iambs. Now, we need Grumman's help ... In our era of post form ... poetry looks different, and novels are composed (rarely) of verse ... & prose poems & flash fiction are nearly identical ... it's all too confusing ... perhaps only someone trained in mathmatics can be of use ... Re-reading Gary Synder ... I'm convinced that he's the most erudite poet we currently have ... a national treasure. --- On Mon, 10/24/11, stephen russell wrote: From: stephen russell Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 3:37 PM Or semantics. & semantically speaking, perhaps the sentence is the main form of all written communication ... or contemporary written language. & verse is merely form composed of the sentence, of sound. --- On Sun, 10/23/11, Michael Snider wrote: From: Michael Snider Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Sunday, October 23, 2011, 8:09 PM Exactly right, Bill. www.mikesnider.org On Oct 23, 2011, at 19:43, "Bill Morgan" wrote: The line IS poetry. --Bob Don?t want to start a fight, but Bob, wouldn?t it be more accurate to say that ?The line IS verse?? I?d say that meaningful repetition (in lines, sounds, visual elements, etc.) IS poetry. And not all poetry is verse, right? Bill Morgan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Mon Oct 24 21:28:17 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 20:28:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein In-Reply-To: <1319501874.52652.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <1319501874.52652.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EA610B1.3070109@louisiana.edu> Speaking for every heterosexual in the world, my sense is that (1) queer circumstances make people perk up their senses (fight or flight, or dance); (2) social prejudices drive queer sensibilities towards other queer sensibilities ("Is it safe?" "Yes, it's very, very, very safe!"); (3) queerness means outsideness, unless I've got the whole system figured wrong. Even the most mainstream of artists like to characterize themselves as outsiders vis-a-vis _something_ (The Man, The Establishment, The Academy, The Present State of Affairs), and lots of artists really are fringey characters. So psychologically and sociologically queer citizens (and queer resident aliens) are fine-tuned by their psychological and social experience to rush to creative peripheries ("a barb-wire fence 20 feet high, electric," etc.); (4) everyone likes to think they need freedom, but as Robinson Jeffers said, they'd "liefer meet a tiger on the road." Freedoms (I don't want to be too abstract, nor too particular) are fundamental features (or fundamental aspirations) of artistic striving. And if anyone on earth should come prepackaged with an understanding that a comprehensive disburdenment from unnecessary constraints is a basic necessity for their well-being, it's queers. (I'm here and I'm queer! Hey, let me the hell out of here!) That's how it all strikes me after years of working with piles (sometimes literally) of folks gay and straight--musicians, actors, dancers, poets. I don't think there's any one factor that steers everyone (any more than I think desire is a simple binary). I'd guess that just as I--from a strictly factory family, from a purely factory town--gravitated effortlessly to an avocation and a mode of life different from anyone I knew for a multitude of reasons (some of which have gradually made themselves clear to me over the course of my life; I'd guess there are many more I'll never know), queers have their reasons, many of which I can't guess, and some of which even they can't guess. (If there was a simple, correct answer to this question, please buzz me back with it!) Jerry Oh, PS: the Jeffers poem; I'd remembered the line but forgotten the title: *Cassandra* The mad girl with the staring eyes and long white fingers Hooked in the stones of the wall, The storm-wrack hair and screeching mouth: does it matter, Cassandra, Whether the people believe Your bitter fountain? Truly men hate the truth, they'd liefer Meet a tiger on the road. Therefore the poets honey their truth with lying; but religion--- Vendors and political men Pour from the barrel, new lies on the old, and are praised for kind Wisdom. Poor bitch be wise. No: you'll still mumble in a corner a crust of truth, to men And gods disgusting---you and I, Cassandra. On 10/24/2011 7:17 PM, amy king wrote: > Thanks for posting, Anny. From Anny's link: > > "Immediately following her death, the interdisciplinary group of > artists associated with Black Mountain College in North Carolina and > Judson Church in New York City embraced Stein's linguistic play, > theater pieces, and operas." > > Why do you think this is? Why, to put it crassly, are the queers so > prominent in the arts? I mean, as innovators? I ask, not to be > self-serving (though I am), but I'm curious what the not-queers > think. I entered a horribly crass thread that asked something similar > (Just How Many Poets are NOT Queer, Anyway?- > http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/12/01/just-how-many-poets-are-not-queer-anyway/) > - is there some merit to such a question? As it relates to innovative > work? > > Judith / Jack Halberstam speculates deeply on the connection between > queers and innovation, among other things. But I'm wondering, as > noted, what the not-queer think. If I may put it so ... queerly. > > Amy > > From an online essay (quickly, randomesque): > > "Queer uses of time and space develop, at least in part, in > opposition to the institutions of family, heterosexuality, and > reproduction." > --Judith Halberstam, In a Queer Time and Place > > If technology becomes gendered through mainstream society, queer > technology mutates and confuses these binaries, just as Judith > Halberstam writes of "mutual mutation."8 > > John Cage, the father of experimental aural processes, has caused > numerous studies in queer musicology to pop up based on his homosexual > lifestyle and works / teachings with audio technologies. Again, during > the Conceptual Art movement of the 1960s, artists revolted against the > idea of art as an object of beauty and began to focus on process-based > ideas. > > Blah blah: > http://www.jstor.org/pss/4539813 > > > ********* > Amy's Alias > + http://amyking.org/ > ******** > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Anny Ballardini > *To:* "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > > *Sent:* Monday, October 24, 2011 3:29 PM > *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein > > http://www.npg.si.edu/exhibit/stein/legacies.html > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a > dancing star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon Oct 24 21:30:34 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 20:30:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem In-Reply-To: <01db01cc92b3$7b1ea930$715bfb90$@ilstu.edu> References: <23438930.1319490957020.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1319495289.98291.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8CE60BEB3E2B8D4-1008-644CB@webmail-m103.sysops.aol.com> <1319503954.18385.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <01db01cc92b3$7b1ea930$715bfb90$@ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <6BD1F38C-4635-4C60-95ED-9C2E94115745@ripon.edu> I confess I lost interest long ago in the burning question of the difference between poetry & prose. The verse/prose distinction works for me. Which means that the prose poem for me is, well, prose. Not that there's anything *wrong* with that. . . . But I have to say that every single definition of "prose poem" that I have ever seen collapses in about 2 seconds against a tide of prose literature that utilizes all the resources of verse poetry (except the line). So either any arty prose is poetry, or, as I prefer, it's prose. Not that there's anything *wrong* with that. . . . But as I say, the question doesn't much engage me anymore, while the matter of what makes a *good* piece of writing engages me daily, and varies, if not daily, pretty regularly. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Mon Oct 24 21:36:29 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:36:29 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein In-Reply-To: <1319501874.52652.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <1319501874.52652.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Amy, I think there's probably no correlation between the sets of creative people in the largest sense (including engineers, architects, and mathematicians, as well as poets, musicians, and painters) and sexual orientation - I think it's more likely that a gay poet will be out than a gay architect - and Paul Goodman is one of my heroes - and I'm half drunk after a long day of software management and working on the mandolin and I'm certainly rambling - but I'm bi, been in love with men, been in love with women, and not since undergraduate days in the early 70s have I even tried to conceal it - but I think being a musician and a poet gave me a kind of license to be openly bi, my competence at software engineering making it impossible for folks from that world to openly discriminate - dollars is dollars is dollars - The world is changing, and for the better. As long as we get the carbon thing right. On Oct 24, 2011, at 8:17 PM, amy king wrote: > Thanks for posting, Anny. From Anny's link: > > "Immediately following her death, the interdisciplinary group of artists associated with Black Mountain College in North Carolina and Judson Church in New York City embraced Stein?s linguistic play, theater pieces, and operas." > > Why do you think this is? Why, to put it crassly, are the queers so prominent in the arts? I mean, as innovators? I ask, not to be self-serving (though I am), but I'm curious what the not-queers think. I entered a horribly crass thread that asked something similar (Just How Many Poets are NOT Queer, Anyway?- http://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2009/12/01/just-how-many-poets-are-not-queer-anyway/) - is there some merit to such a question? As it relates to innovative work? > > Judith / Jack Halberstam speculates deeply on the connection between queers and innovation, among other things. But I'm wondering, as noted, what the not-queer think. If I may put it so ... queerly. > > Amy > > From an online essay (quickly, randomesque): > > "Queer uses of time and space develop, at least in part, in opposition to the institutions of family, heterosexuality, and reproduction." > --Judith Halberstam, In a Queer Time and Place > > If technology becomes gendered through mainstream society, queer technology mutates and confuses these binaries, just as Judith Halberstam writes of ?mutual mutation.?8 > > John Cage, the father of experimental aural processes, has caused numerous studies in queer musicology to pop up based on his homosexual lifestyle and works / teachings with audio technologies. Again, during the Conceptual Art movement of the 1960s, artists revolted against the idea of art as an object of beauty and began to focus on process-based ideas. > > Blah blah: > http://www.jstor.org/pss/4539813 > > > ********* > Amy's Alias > + http://amyking.org/ > ******** > > From: Anny Ballardini > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 3:29 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein > > http://www.npg.si.edu/exhibit/stein/legacies.html > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Mon Oct 24 21:39:05 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:39:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem In-Reply-To: <01db01cc92b3$7b1ea930$715bfb90$@ilstu.edu> References: <23438930.1319490957020.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1319495289.98291.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8CE60BEB3E2B8D4-1008-644CB@webmail-m103.sysops.aol.com> <1319503954.18385.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <01db01cc92b3$7b1ea930$715bfb90$@ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <998A7974-14FF-4D1D-A963-A3D7B8DE1A2D@mikesnider.org> I have real problem with the distinction between poetry and verse. A bad painting is still a painting. A bad poem is still a poem. Sent from my iPhone On Oct 24, 2011, at 9:14 PM, "Bill Morgan" wrote: > --"break your lines before they reach the right margin." It may not be a good one, but it's a poem. > > I say it isn?t necessarily a poem; it?s verse. I don?t quite understand why this discussion seems again and again to conflate the two: poetry=verse; verse=poetry. > > This discussion (for some participants) seems to be stuck on the dichotomy of poetry vs. prose?asking how is poetry different from prose? I?m not even sure why it would be valuable to be able to answer that question. Surely a better, more interesting question is one that escapes the dichotomy and asks ?How is poetry different from everything else in the world?? > > BTW, John, my functional definition of a prose poem is a piece of writing that utilizes or may utilize all the language resources of poetry except the line. > > Cheers, > > Bill Morgan > > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of John Jeffrey > Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 7:53 PM > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem > > James, this may be the knot. A poem is a poem is a... doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. I haven't been talking about poetry in the grand artistic sense, but in the simple descriptive sense. The same way I might say "painting" in regards to a Van Gogh or an adult ed art project or a grade schooler's finger-painting. So in that regard, sure, it's easy to write a poem--"break your lines before they reach the right margin." It may not be a good one, but it's a poem. > > JohnJ > > > From: "jforjames at aol.com" > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 7:49 PM > Subject: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem > > I think the problem lies in the simplistic question: What makes lines in verse a poem? Nothing does; verse lines don't make a poem. The poem eludes easy/simple definition whether written in broken lines or whether it's using vast and robust resources of the prose sentence and getting comfortable with the right margin. Within a few seconds one could reel off dozens of features of poems (like the line) and the line would be just one feature (or one attribute) of a poem. If all it took to write a poem was to break your lines before they reached the right margin....wouldn't that be simple? > Finnegan > -----Original Message----- > From: John Jeffrey > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Mon, Oct 24, 2011 6:37 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > I didn't think it a silly question. Perhaps unsophisticated, if we wanted to label it, but not silly. I thought the real illustrative moment was the answer, which is my problem with prose poetry in the first place. (I'm not a fan.) I can accept it as a fusion form, ? la mixed media in visual art, but not a pure poetry. If I let that sort of stuff within the walls, what's next? Some guy using mathematics and colors and calling it poetry? No. I can't imagine it. > > JohnJ > > (And, yes, I know that my phrase "pure poetry" just set a lot of teeth to gnashing.) > > From: Halvard Johnson > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:37 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > Or maybe just stop asking silly questions. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; > Transparencies & Projections > > > > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 4:15 PM, wrote: > It's pretty easy. It's a matter of rhythm. Think of the prose poem as a single line. Or as a directio9n tio imagine it as a single line. Which does get one to read it in a particular way. > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Jeffrey > Sent: Oct 24, 2011 5:11 PM > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > Interestingly, at a poetry reading last week, the poet said that his latest book was all prose poems. Someone in the audience asked about prose poems, saying, Couldn't you just take any free verse poem, remove the line breaks, and call it a prose poem? What makes the prose poem special? > > Ah, then the fun began as the poor guy tried to explain. There was mention of compression and images. Of a story being told. Of "poetic language." Of compression (again). Of poetic techniques. He even mentioned Flash Fiction at one point in a sort of compare and contrast. (The professor in him, I'm sure.) In the end, there was still much confusion, follow-up questions left hanging in the air. No one wanted to go through it again. > > JohnJ > > > From: stephen russell > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 4:44 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > of course, none of this explains the difference between contemporary poetry & prose. Back in the day, it was easy. Back when meter was meter, and iambs were iambs. Now, we need Grumman's help ... In our era of post form ... poetry looks different, and novels are composed (rarely) of verse ... & prose poems & flash fiction are nearly identical ... it's all too confusing ... perhaps only someone trained in mathmatics can be of use ... > > Re-reading Gary Synder ... I'm convinced that he's the most erudite poet we currently have ... a national treasure. > > --- On Mon, 10/24/11, stephen russell wrote: > > From: stephen russell > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 3:37 PM > > Or semantics. & semantically speaking, perhaps the sentence is the main form of all written communication ... or contemporary written language. & verse is merely form > composed of the sentence, of sound. > > --- On Sun, 10/23/11, Michael Snider wrote: > > From: Michael Snider > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Sunday, October 23, 2011, 8:09 PM > > Exactly right, Bill. > > www.mikesnider.org > > On Oct 23, 2011, at 19:43, "Bill Morgan" wrote: > > The line IS poetry. > > --Bob > > > Don?t want to start a fight, but Bob, wouldn?t it be more accurate to say that ?The line IS verse?? I?d say that meaningful repetition (in lines, sounds, visual elements, etc.) IS poetry. And not all poetry is verse, right? > > Bill Morgan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Mon Oct 24 21:40:21 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:40:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem In-Reply-To: <6BD1F38C-4635-4C60-95ED-9C2E94115745@ripon.edu> References: <23438930.1319490957020.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1319495289.98291.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8CE60BEB3E2B8D4-1008-644CB@webmail-m103.sysops.aol.com> <1319503954.18385.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <01db01cc92b3$7b1ea930$715bfb90$@ilstu.edu> <6BD1F38C-4635-4C60-95ED-9C2E94115745@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <60F2625C-5F33-4C55-9ACE-C9DA8AC729F9@mikesnider.org> David, I'm with you. Sent from my iPhone On Oct 24, 2011, at 9:30 PM, David Graham wrote: > I confess I lost interest long ago in the burning question of the difference between poetry & prose. The verse/prose distinction works for me. Which means that the prose poem for me is, well, prose. > > Not that there's anything *wrong* with that. . . . > > But I have to say that every single definition of "prose poem" that I have ever seen collapses in about 2 seconds against a tide of prose literature that utilizes all the resources of verse poetry (except the line). > > So either any arty prose is poetry, or, as I prefer, it's prose. > > Not that there's anything *wrong* with that. . . . > > But as I say, the question doesn't much engage me anymore, while the matter of what makes a *good* piece of writing engages me daily, and varies, if not daily, pretty regularly. > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Mon Oct 24 21:32:21 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 18:32:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] A mere preponderance of poetic evidence In-Reply-To: <30173393.1319504326509.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <30173393.1319504326509.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1319506341.41328.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> So consider each paragraph a line. ? ? ?--Interesting idea. "Poetry"...evades definition, though we tend to recognize it when we see it.? ? ?--So is a poem then defined by a mere preponderance of poetic evidence? ?Sound and rhythm and image and such esoterics as "intensity of language," even though not every poem will include all of these (and sometimes hardly any) and some prose will?? >________________________________ >From: "junction at earthlink.net" >To: NewPoetry List >Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 8:58 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > >So consider each paragraph a line. > >I've only written three or four prose poems, but I've translated dozens. A good poem is a good poem, and good prose poems never leave me asking myself why it's a poem. I'm not sure we need (I certainly don't) a rigorous definition of prose poetry--like the larger category "poetry" it evades definition, though we tend to recognize it when we see it. > > >-----Original Message----- >>From: John Jeffrey >>Sent: Oct 24, 2011 8:14 PM >>To: NewPoetry List >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >> >> >>I think that argument is flawed. ?I don't imagine that most prose poets are, in their minds, writing a long one-line poem. ?In fact, I've seen some prose poems with paragraphs. >> >> >>I've seen a few one-line, even one-word, comic poems that I've liked. ?But other than that, nuttin'.? >> >> >> >>But no, I don't have a line "length limit." ?A hundred word line followed by a few more hundred word lines might a poem make. ?It's more that I just want lines (plural) in my poetry. ?I'm simple that way.? >> >> >> >>>________________________________ >>>From: "junction at earthlink.net" >>>To: NewPoetry List >>>Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 7:25 PM >>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>> >>> >>>OK, what if I were to write a hundred word line? How about Biblical verses? Do you conceive of a length limit beyond which a line of poetry is no longer verse? Just trying to get specific here. >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: John Jeffrey >>>>Sent: Oct 24, 2011 7:19 PM >>>>To: NewPoetry List >>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>> >>>> >>>>I've read these folks (though not much Jacob) and more.? I know it's endless.? That prose poetry is being written is not the point? I've even liked some prose poems.? But every time I read one, I wish the writer had added line breaks.? That's all.? Otherwise, to me,...meh.? It's as if it's trying to balance between worlds, and I think it's weakens the form. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>________________________________ >>>>>From: "junction at earthlink.net" >>>>>To: NewPoetry List >>>>>Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 7:03 PM >>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>John: You might want to check out Baudelaire, Rimbaud, Jacob, etc., and maybe Spicer. But it's pretty endless. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>>From: John Jeffrey >>>>>>Sent: Oct 24, 2011 6:28 PM >>>>>>To: NewPoetry List >>>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>I didn't think it a silly question.? Perhaps unsophisticated, if we wanted to label it, but not silly.? I thought the real illustrative moment was the answer, which is my problem with prose poetry in the first place.? (I'm not a fan.)? I can accept it as a fusion form, ? la mixed media in visual art, but not a pure poetry.? If I let that sort of stuff within the walls, what's next?? Some guy using mathematics and colors and calling it poetry?? No.? I can't imagine it. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>JohnJ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>(And, yes, I know that my phrase "pure poetry" just set a lot of teeth to gnashing.) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>________________________________ >>>>>>>From: Halvard Johnson >>>>>>>To: NewPoetry List >>>>>>>Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:37 PM >>>>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Or maybe just stop asking silly questions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>>?? ? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Serving the tri-state area. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Hal >>>>>>>Halvard Johnson >>>>>>>================ >>>>>>> >>>>>>>halvard at gmail.com >>>>>>>http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >>>>>>>http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ >>>>>>>http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ >>>>>>>http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ >>>>>>>http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; >>>>>>>Transparencies & Projections >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 4:15 PM, wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>It's pretty easy. It's a matter of rhythm. Think of the prose poem as a single line. Or as a directio9n tio imagine it as a single line. Which does get one to read it in a particular way. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>From: John Jeffrey >>>>>>>>>Sent: Oct 24, 2011 5:11 PM >>>>>>>>>To: NewPoetry List >>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Interestingly, at a poetry reading last week, the poet said that his latest book was all prose poems.? Someone in the audience asked about prose poems, saying, Couldn't you just take any free verse poem, remove the line breaks, and call it a prose poem?? What makes the prose poem special? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>Ah, then the fun began as the poor guy tried to explain.? There was mention of compression and images.? Of a story being told.? Of "poetic language."? Of compression (again).? Of poetic techniques.? He even mentioned Flash Fiction at one point in a sort of compare and contrast.? (The professor in him, I'm sure.)? In the end, there was still much confusion, follow-up questions left hanging in the air.? No one wanted to go through it again. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>JohnJ >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>From: stephen russell >>>>>>>>>>To: NewPoetry List >>>>>>>>>>Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 4:44 PM >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>of course, none of this explains the difference between contemporary poetry & prose. Back in the day, it was easy. Back when meter was meter, and iambs were iambs. Now, we need Grumman's help ... In our era of post form ... poetry looks different, and novels are composed (rarely) of verse ... & prose poems & flash fiction are nearly identical ... it's all too confusing ... perhaps only someone trained in mathmatics can be of use ... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>Re-reading Gary Synder ... I'm convinced that he's the most erudite poet we currently have ... a national treasure. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>--- On Mon, 10/24/11, stephen russell wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>From: stephen russell >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>>>>>>>>>To: "NewPoetry List" >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 3:37 PM >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>Or semantics. & semantically speaking, perhaps the sentence is the main form of all written communication ... or contemporary written language. & verse is merely form >>>>>>>>>>>composed of the sentence, of sound.? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>--- On Sun, 10/23/11, Michael Snider wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>From: Michael Snider >>>>>>>>>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>>>>>>>>>>To: "NewPoetry List" >>>>>>>>>>>>Date: Sunday, October 23, 2011, 8:09 PM >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>Exactly right, Bill. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>www.mikesnider.org >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>On Oct 23, 2011, at 19:43, "Bill Morgan" wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>The line IS poetry. >>>>>>>>>>>>>? >>>>>>>>>>>>>--Bob >>>>>>>>>>>>>? >>>>>>>>>>>>>? >>>>>>>>>>>>>Don?t want to start a fight, but Bob, wouldn?t it be more accurate to say that ?The line IS verse??? I?d say that meaningful repetition (in lines, sounds, visual elements, etc.) IS poetry.? And not all poetry is verse, right? >>>>>>>>>>>>>? >>>>>>>>>>>>>Bill Morgan >>>>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>>>>>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>-----Inline Attachment Follows----- >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>>>>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>-----Inline Attachment Follows----- >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>>>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >>> >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon Oct 24 21:46:33 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 20:46:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem In-Reply-To: <60F2625C-5F33-4C55-9ACE-C9DA8AC729F9@mikesnider.org> References: <23438930.1319490957020.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1319495289.98291.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8CE60BEB3E2B8D4-1008-644CB@webmail-m103.sysops.aol.com> <1319503954.18385.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <01db01cc92b3$7b1ea930$715bfb90$@ilstu.edu> <6BD1F38C-4635-4C60-95ED-9C2E94115745@ripon.edu> <60F2625C-5F33-4C55-9ACE-C9DA8AC729F9@mikesnider.org> Message-ID: Probably I'm not the only person reminded of this little lyric. But, for those who haven't seen it, or haven't seen it lately . . . . Because You Asked about the Line between Prose and Poetry Sparrows were feeding in a freezing drizzle That while you watched turned into pieces of snow Riding a gradient invisible From silver aslant to random, white, and slow. There came a moment that you couldn't tell. And then they clearly flew instead of fell. --Howard Nemerov. Sentences. U Chicago Press, 1980. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Mon Oct 24 21:47:22 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 18:47:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem In-Reply-To: <01db01cc92b3$7b1ea930$715bfb90$@ilstu.edu> References: <23438930.1319490957020.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1319495289.98291.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8CE60BEB3E2B8D4-1008-644CB@webmail-m103.sysops.aol.com> <1319503954.18385.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <01db01cc92b3$7b1ea930$715bfb90$@ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <1319507242.45049.YahooMailNeo@web120528.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I don't make (and I don't agree with) the verse/poetry distinction in the way that many do, as if verse is poetry without the "art," as if it's the muzak of the poetry world, as if Milton didn't write in verse. >________________________________ >From: Bill Morgan >To: 'NewPoetry List' >Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 9:14 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem > > >--"break your?lines before they reach the right margin." ?It may not be a good one, but it's a poem. >? >I say it isn?t necessarily a poem; it?s verse.? I don?t quite understand why this discussion seems again and again to conflate the two: poetry=verse; verse=poetry. >? >This discussion (for some participants) seems to be stuck on the dichotomy of poetry vs. prose?asking how is poetry different from prose? ?I?m not even sure why it would be valuable to be able to answer that question.? Surely a better, more interesting question is one that escapes the dichotomy and asks ?How is poetry different from everything else in the world?? >? >BTW, John, my functional definition of a prose poem is a piece of writing that utilizes or may utilize all the language resources of poetry except the line. >? >Cheers, >? >Bill Morgan >? >From:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of John Jeffrey >Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 7:53 PM >To: NewPoetry List >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem >? >James, this may be the knot. ?A poem is a poem is a... doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. ?I haven't been talking about poetry in the grand artistic sense, but in the simple descriptive sense. ?The same way I might say "painting" in regards to a Van Gogh or an adult ed art project or a grade schooler's finger-painting. ?So in that regard, sure, it's easy to write a poem--"break your?lines before they reach the right margin." ?It may not be a good one, but it's a poem. >? >JohnJ >? >? >> >>________________________________ >> >>From:"jforjames at aol.com" >>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 7:49 PM >>Subject: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem >>I think the problem lies in the simplistic?question: What?makes lines in verse a poem? Nothing does; verse lines don't make a poem.?The poem eludes easy/simple definition whether written in broken lines?or whether?it's using vast and robust resources of the prose sentence and getting comfortable with the?right margin. Within a few seconds one could reel off dozens of features of poems (like the line) and the line would be just one feature (or one attribute) of a poem. If all it took?to write a poem?was to break your?lines before they reached the right margin....wouldn't that be simple? >>Finnegan >>-----Original Message----- >>From: John Jeffrey >>To: NewPoetry List >>Sent: Mon, Oct 24, 2011 6:37 pm >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>I didn't think it a silly question.? Perhaps unsophisticated, if we wanted to label it, but not silly.? I thought the real illustrative moment was the answer, which is my problem with prose poetry in the first place.? (I'm not a fan.)? I can accept it as a fusion form, ? la mixed media in visual art, but not a pure poetry.? If I let that sort of stuff within the walls, what's next?? Some guy using mathematics and colors and calling it poetry?? No.? I can't imagine it. >>? >>JohnJ >>? >>(And, yes, I know that my phrase "pure poetry" just set a lot of teeth to gnashing.) >>? >>> >>>________________________________ >>> >>>From:Halvard Johnson >>>To: NewPoetry List >>>Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:37 PM >>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>Or maybe just stop asking silly questions. >>> >>>?? ? >>>? >>>Serving the tri-state area. >>>? >>>Hal >>> >>>Halvard Johnson >>>================ >>> >>>halvard at gmail.com >>>http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >>>http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ >>>http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ >>>http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ >>>http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >>>? >>>Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; >>>Transparencies & Projections >>>? >>> >>> >>> >>>On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 4:15 PM, wrote: >>>It's pretty easy. It's a matter of rhythm. Think of the prose poem as a single line. Or as a directio9n tio imagine it as a single line. Which does get one to read it in a particular way. >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: John Jeffrey >>>Sent: Oct 24, 2011 5:11 PM >>>To: NewPoetry List >>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>Interestingly, at a poetry reading last week, the poet said that his latest book was all prose poems.? Someone in the audience asked about prose poems, saying, Couldn't you just take any free verse poem, remove the line breaks, and call it a prose poem?? What makes the prose poem special? >>>? >>>Ah, then the fun began as the poor guy tried to explain.? There was mention of compression and images.? Of a story being told.? Of "poetic language."? Of compression (again).? Of poetic techniques.? He even mentioned Flash Fiction at one point in a sort of compare and contrast.? (The professor in him, I'm sure.)? In the end, there was still much confusion, follow-up questions left hanging in the air.? No one wanted to go through it again. >>>? >>>JohnJ >>>? >>>? >>>> >>>>________________________________ >>>> >>>>From:stephen russell >>>>To: NewPoetry List >>>>Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 4:44 PM >>>>Subject:Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>>? >>>>of course, none of this explains the difference between contemporary poetry & prose. Back in the day, it was easy. Back when meter was meter, and iambs were iambs. Now, we need Grumman's help ... In our era of post form ... poetry looks different, and novels are composed (rarely) of verse ... & prose poems & flash fiction are nearly identical ... it's all too confusing ... perhaps only someone trained in mathmatics can be of use ... >>>> >>>>Re-reading Gary Synder ... I'm convinced that he's the most erudite poet we currently have ... a national treasure. >>>> >>>>--- On Mon, 10/24/11, stephen russell wrote: >>>> >>>>>From: stephen russell >>>>> >>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>>>To: "NewPoetry List" >>>>>Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 3:37 PM >>>>>Or semantics. & semantically speaking, perhaps the sentence is the main form of all written communication ... or contemporary written language. & verse is merely form >>>>>composed of the sentence, of sound.? >>>>> >>>>>--- On Sun, 10/23/11, Michael Snider wrote: >>>>> >>>>>From: Michael Snider >>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>>>To: "NewPoetry List" >>>>>Date: Sunday, October 23, 2011, 8:09 PM >>>>>Exactly right, Bill. >>>>> >>>>>www.mikesnider.org >>>>> >>>>>On Oct 23, 2011, at 19:43, "Bill Morgan" wrote: >>>>>The line IS poetry. >>>>>>? >>>>>>--Bob >>>>>>? >>>>>>? >>>>>>Don?t want to start a fight, but Bob, wouldn?t it be more accurate to say that ?The line IS verse??? I?d say that meaningful repetition (in lines, sounds, visual elements, etc.) IS poetry.? And not all poetry is verse, right? >>>>>>? >>>>>>Bill Morgan >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>>>-----Inline Attachment Follows----- >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>>>-----Inline Attachment Follows----- >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>? >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Mon Oct 24 21:42:40 2011 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 18:42:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Message-ID: <1319506960.67624.YahooMailMobile@web160116.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Who cares what you call em? I don't need a name for the Chants de Maldoror to know they astonish me. It's a poem. Amicalement, Alex -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Mon Oct 24 21:54:44 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 18:54:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem In-Reply-To: <01db01cc92b3$7b1ea930$715bfb90$@ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <1319507684.24760.YahooMailClassic@web161920.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Gary Snyder has uneven lines in his prose poems. I don't know who started the absolutely even block of prose which has come to define the?prose poem. Maybe the English translators of Baudelaire, maybe Karl?Shapiro. But a paragraph is a paragraph is a paragraph, and?prose does not look like a rose by any other name, nor should it. Gary Snyder's non prose poems have lines,?often appearing unevenly across the page. He's conversant with poets from any number of traditions, his studies starting in college, leading him to a Buddhist monastery, with work as a logger, ranger, etc. Not that bios have anything to do with aesthetics (how good or bad a poem may be), they're simply interesting add/ons. I'm not sure if Snyder has?ever written a conventionally metrical poem.?Earlier, I had?tagged him as?the most erudite poet in the country, and a national treasure. I stand by that.? --- On Mon, 10/24/11, Bill Morgan wrote: From: Bill Morgan Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem To: "'NewPoetry List'" Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 9:14 PM --"break your?lines before they reach the right margin." ?It may not be a good one, but it's a poem. ? I say it isn?t necessarily a poem; it?s verse.? I don?t quite understand why this discussion seems again and again to conflate the two: poetry=verse; verse=poetry. ? This discussion (for some participants) seems to be stuck on the dichotomy of poetry vs. prose?asking how is poetry different from prose? ?I?m not even sure why it would be valuable to be able to answer that question.? Surely a better, more interesting question is one that escapes the dichotomy and asks ?How is poetry different from everything else in the world?? ? BTW, John, my functional definition of a prose poem is a piece of writing that utilizes or may utilize all the language resources of poetry except the line. ? Cheers, ? Bill Morgan ? From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of John Jeffrey Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 7:53 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem ? James, this may be the knot. ?A poem is a poem is a... doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. ?I haven't been talking about poetry in the grand artistic sense, but in the simple descriptive sense. ?The same way I might say "painting" in regards to a Van Gogh or an adult ed art project or a grade schooler's finger-painting. ?So in that regard, sure, it's easy to write a poem--"break your?lines before they reach the right margin." ?It may not be a good one, but it's a poem. ? JohnJ ? ? From: "jforjames at aol.com" To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 7:49 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem I think the problem lies in the simplistic?question: What?makes lines in verse a poem? Nothing does; verse lines don't make a poem.?The poem eludes easy/simple definition whether written in broken lines?or whether?it's using vast and robust resources of the prose sentence and getting comfortable with the?right margin. Within a few seconds one could reel off dozens of features of poems (like the line) and the line would be just one feature (or one attribute) of a poem. If all it took?to write a poem?was to break your?lines before they reached the right margin....wouldn't that be simple? Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: John Jeffrey To: NewPoetry List Sent: Mon, Oct 24, 2011 6:37 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line I didn't think it a silly question.? Perhaps unsophisticated, if we wanted to label it, but not silly.? I thought the real illustrative moment was the answer, which is my problem with prose poetry in the first place.? (I'm not a fan.)? I can accept it as a fusion form, ? la mixed media in visual art, but not a pure poetry.? If I let that sort of stuff within the walls, what's next?? Some guy using mathematics and colors and calling it poetry?? No.? I can't imagine it. ? JohnJ ? (And, yes, I know that my phrase "pure poetry" just set a lot of teeth to gnashing.) ? From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry List Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:37 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Or maybe just stop asking silly questions. ?? ? ? Serving the tri-state area. ? Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home ? Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections ? On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 4:15 PM, wrote: It's pretty easy. It's a matter of rhythm. Think of the prose poem as a single line. Or as a directio9n tio imagine it as a single line. Which does get one to read it in a particular way. -----Original Message----- From: John Jeffrey Sent: Oct 24, 2011 5:11 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Interestingly, at a poetry reading last week, the poet said that his latest book was all prose poems.? Someone in the audience asked about prose poems, saying, Couldn't you just take any free verse poem, remove the line breaks, and call it a prose poem?? What makes the prose poem special? ? Ah, then the fun began as the poor guy tried to explain.? There was mention of compression and images.? Of a story being told.? Of "poetic language."? Of compression (again).? Of poetic techniques.? He even mentioned Flash Fiction at one point in a sort of compare and contrast.? (The professor in him, I'm sure.)? In the end, there was still much confusion, follow-up questions left hanging in the air.? No one wanted to go through it again. ? JohnJ ? ? From: stephen russell To: NewPoetry List Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 4:44 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line ? of course, none of this explains the difference between contemporary poetry & prose. Back in the day, it was easy. Back when meter was meter, and iambs were iambs. Now, we need Grumman's help ... In our era of post form ... poetry looks different, and novels are composed (rarely) of verse ... & prose poems & flash fiction are nearly identical ... it's all too confusing ... perhaps only someone trained in mathmatics can be of use ... Re-reading Gary Synder ... I'm convinced that he's the most erudite poet we currently have ... a national treasure. --- On Mon, 10/24/11, stephen russell wrote: From: stephen russell Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 3:37 PM Or semantics. & semantically speaking, perhaps the sentence is the main form of all written communication ... or contemporary written language. & verse is merely form composed of the sentence, of sound.? --- On Sun, 10/23/11, Michael Snider wrote: From: Michael Snider Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Sunday, October 23, 2011, 8:09 PM Exactly right, Bill. www.mikesnider.org On Oct 23, 2011, at 19:43, "Bill Morgan" wrote: The line IS poetry. ? --Bob ? ? Don?t want to start a fight, but Bob, wouldn?t it be more accurate to say that ?The line IS verse??? I?d say that meaningful repetition (in lines, sounds, visual elements, etc.) IS poetry.? And not all poetry is verse, right? ? Bill Morgan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ? _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon Oct 24 21:57:48 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 20:57:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem In-Reply-To: <1319507242.45049.YahooMailNeo@web120528.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <23438930.1319490957020.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1319495289.98291.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8CE60BEB3E2B8D4-1008-644CB@webmail-m103.sysops.aol.com> <1319503954.18385.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <01db01cc92b3$7b1ea930$715bfb90$@ilstu.edu> <1319507242.45049.YahooMailNeo@web120528.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Oct 24, 2011, at 8:47 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: > I don't make (and I don't agree with) the verse/poetry distinction in the way that many do, as if verse is poetry without the "art," as if it's the muzak of the poetry world, as if Milton didn't write in verse. ============================================================== Here's the crux, yes. Problem with these discussions is typically that some people are defining along the axis of quality, while others do it along the axis of form. Some without seeming to recognize that this creates big problems. Seems to me that 90% of the time when the phrase "that's not poetry!" is uttered, it really means "it's not *good* poetry," or "it's not *my* kind of poetry." One reason I prefer the terms used neutrally (prose/verse) as simple formal distinctions. . . . ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Oct 24 22:07:04 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 22:07:04 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] A mere preponderance of poetic evidence Message-ID: <10279417.1319508424600.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Mon Oct 24 22:08:12 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 19:08:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319508492.50833.YahooMailClassic@web161908.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Still, it's nice to have some clarity. Presently, I'm so fucked up, I'm hoping that Grumman will show and do a clean up job. What the fuck is poetry? I've forgotton. Help. I'm going to sleep. --- On Mon, 10/24/11, David Graham wrote: From: David Graham Subject: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 9:57 PM On Oct 24, 2011, at 8:47 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: I don't make (and I don't agree with) the verse/poetry distinction in the way that many do, as if verse is poetry without the "art," as if it's the muzak of the poetry world, as if Milton didn't write in verse. ============================================================== Here's the crux, yes. ?Problem with these discussions is typically that some people are defining along the axis of quality, while others do it along the axis of form. ?Some without seeming to recognize that this creates big problems. Seems to me that 90% of the time when the phrase "that's not poetry!" is uttered, it really means "it's not *good* poetry," or "it's not *my* kind of poetry." ? One reason I prefer the terms used neutrally (prose/verse) as simple formal distinctions. . . . ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Mon Oct 24 22:17:27 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:17:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem In-Reply-To: References: <23438930.1319490957020.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1319495289.98291.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8CE60BEB3E2B8D4-1008-644CB@webmail-m103.sysops.aol.com> <1319503954.18385.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <01db01cc92b3$7b1ea930$715bfb90$@ilstu.edu> <1319507242.45049.YahooMailNeo@web120528.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EA61C37.30607@louisiana.edu> I'm starting to think I prefer John Ciardi's old distinction, between poetry and poesy. Your Poes, Jerry On 10/24/2011 8:57 PM, David Graham wrote: > > > > On Oct 24, 2011, at 8:47 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: > >> I don't make (and I don't agree with) the verse/poetry distinction in >> the way that many do, as if verse is poetry without the "art," as if >> it's the muzak of the poetry world, as if Milton didn't write in verse. > > ============================================================== > > Here's the crux, yes. Problem with these discussions is typically > that some people are defining along the axis of quality, while others > do it along the axis of form. Some without seeming to recognize that > this creates big problems. > > Seems to me that 90% of the time when the phrase "that's not poetry!" > is uttered, it really means "it's not *good* poetry," or "it's not > *my* kind of poetry." > > One reason I prefer the terms used neutrally (prose/verse) as simple > formal distinctions. . . . > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu Mon Oct 24 22:43:15 2011 From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 21:43:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem In-Reply-To: <1319508492.50833.YahooMailClassic@web161908.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1319508492.50833.YahooMailClassic@web161908.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <024601cc92bf$d8fd0090$8af701b0$@ilstu.edu> From: David Graham Subject: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 9:57 PM ============================================================== Here's the crux, yes. Problem with these discussions is typically that some people are defining along the axis of quality, while others do it along the axis of form. Some without seeming to recognize that this creates big problems. Seems to me that 90% of the time when the phrase "that's not poetry!" is uttered, it really means "it's not *good* poetry," or "it's not *my* kind of poetry." One reason I prefer the terms used neutrally (prose/verse) as simple formal distinctions. . . . Just to be clear, David: That is *not* what I'm saying. I'm not reserving the term poetry for writing I value. I'm saying that the line is essential to verse but not to poetry. Lines and other features of verse may be parts-but not essential parts-of the core meaning of the word poetry, which is language making use of meaningful repetition. That repetition moves around a lot; it can be at the level of rhythm, spacing on the page (or in the voice), sentence structure, rhyme, meter, lineation, vowel or consonant clusters, images, and on and on. So, in my view, verse and poetry are both value-neutral terms (one can have good or bad verse and good or bad poetry), but are not equivalents. OK, I think I'm done now. Whew! Bill Morgan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Oct 24 23:29:58 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 23:29:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem Message-ID: <77284.5c536408.3bd78736@cs.com> In a message dated 10/24/2011 9:47:52 PM Central Daylight Time, poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com writes: > > >> I don't make (and I don't agree with) the verse/poetry distinction in >> the way that many do, as if verse is poetry without the "art," as if it's >> the muzak of the poetry world, as if Milton didn't write in verse. >> >> >> > Prose is not written or printed in lines but in blocks (paragraphs?), usually with a justified right margin like other prose. Printing it with narrower margins (as in, say, newspaper format--30 cpl--shouldn't make any difference. Verse (metrical verse, free verse) is written in lines; if the lines are long (Whitman or Jeffers or Kipling, say) the lines may be broken and indented, but they're still individual lines (which show up in the line count). My Craig edition of Shakespeare is a two-column per page job, and occasionally longish lines of blank verse have to be indented; Whitman's long lines, as they appear in facsimiles of Leaves of Grass, are often broken and indented, but show up broken and indented at other points else in textbooks, anthologies, and other editions of WW, depending on font size and page size. I am glad that literature textbooks, many of which used to be two-column per page affairs, are now almost universally one column per page, even though it does "waste" a lot of space where poetry is concerned. Whitman in a two-column textbook looks ridiculous, with some lines having to be broken two or three times (though the line numbering usually respects the sense of "line as line." These are just differences in basic definitions between prose and verse, which are modes of writing (verse comes from the Latin for "furrow"). To say that a prose poem isn't poetry because it isn't verse is absurd. To say that a prose poem is no good should have nothing to do with the mode it's written in; bad writing can occur in prose and free or metrical verse, but that has nothing to do with the mode it's written in. Some contemporary verse (usually, but not always, free verse) seems to be fairly arbitrary about where line breaks occur--lines ending in "the" for example. A lot of times (I do this as a classroom exercise) with free verse (reprinted as prose) it's very difficult to restore the original line breaks. Metrical verse (Milton, say) if printed as prose can easily have the line breaks restored if one knows iambic pentameter. I believe that a lot of early poetry came down to us printed as prose (to save precious parchment) but could be easily restored to the original verse if one understood the meter(s). Beowulf is one example, if memory serves. One can listen to the heavy stresses (often marked by alliteration) and restore the original verse lines. I don't know that this answer is very clear, but it does come up from time to time. I have had long arguments with Lew Turco over "free verse." He basically claims that that's a contradiction in terms, i. e., that if it's "verse" it has to be metrical. I've argued that it's verse if it's written in lines, metrical or not. The argument goes on. But, as far as I can see, poetry (which is a genre, not a mode) can be written equally well in metrical verse, free verse, spatial verse, or prose. Often I will tell a student that parts of a poem (metrical or free verse) are "just prose" or "not poetry," just giving basic expository information in flat language. Using rhyme and meter might "pretty them up a bit," but it still ain't poetry. You could easily turn the instructions on an IRS form into a string of sonnets if you wished (and were skillful in such things) but you'd end up with nothing more than versified prose. As teachers of writing, we tend to use both "prose" (or "prosaic") and "verse" as negatives; they can be, but it has nothing to do with the inherent qualities of the modes. Some of the lushest poetry I know was written by people like Hemingway, Wolfe, and Fitzgerald, to mention only three. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 23:32:01 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 22:32:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem In-Reply-To: <1319503954.18385.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <23438930.1319490957020.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1319495289.98291.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8CE60BEB3E2B8D4-1008-644CB@webmail-m103.sysops.aol.com> <1319503954.18385.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Nothing means the same thing to everyone, though 2+2=4 comes close. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 7:52 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: > James, this may be the knot. A poem is a poem is a... doesn't mean the > same thing to everyone. I haven't been talking about poetry in the grand > artistic sense, but in the simple descriptive sense. The same way I might > say "painting" in regards to a Van Gogh or an adult ed art project or a > grade schooler's finger-painting. So in that regard, sure, it's easy to > write a poem--"break your lines before they reach the right margin." It > may not be a good one, but it's a poem. > > JohnJ > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* "jforjames at aol.com" > *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > *Sent:* Monday, October 24, 2011 7:49 PM > *Subject:* [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem > > I think the problem lies in the simplistic question: What makes lines in > verse a poem? Nothing does; verse lines don't make a poem. The poem eludes > easy/simple definition whether written in broken lines or whether it's using > vast and robust resources of the prose sentence and getting comfortable with > the right margin. Within a few seconds one could reel off dozens of features > of poems (like the line) and the line would be just one feature (or one > attribute) of a poem. If all it took to write a poem was to break your lines > before they reached the right margin....wouldn't that be simple? > Finnegan > -----Original Message----- > From: John Jeffrey > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Mon, Oct 24, 2011 6:37 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > I didn't think it a silly question. Perhaps unsophisticated, if we > wanted to label it, but not silly. I thought the real illustrative moment > was the answer, which is my problem with prose poetry in the first place. > (I'm not a fan.) I can accept it as a fusion form, ? la mixed media in > visual art, but not a pure poetry. If I let that sort of stuff within the > walls, what's next? Some guy using mathematics and colors and calling it > poetry? No. I can't imagine it. > > JohnJ > > (And, yes, I know that my phrase "pure poetry" just set a lot of teeth to > gnashing.) > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Halvard Johnson > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Sent:* Monday, October 24, 2011 5:37 PM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > Or maybe just stop asking silly questions. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 4:15 PM, wrote: > > It's pretty easy. It's a matter of rhythm. Think of the prose poem as a > single line. Or as a directio9n tio imagine it as a single line. Which does > get one to read it in a particular way. > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Jeffrey ** > Sent: Oct 24, 2011 5:11 PM > To: NewPoetry List ** > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > **** > Interestingly, at a poetry reading last week, the poet said that his > latest book was all prose poems. Someone in the audience asked about prose > poems, saying, Couldn't you just take any free verse poem, remove the line > breaks, and call it a prose poem? What makes the prose poem special? > > Ah, then the fun began as the poor guy tried to explain. There was > mention of compression and images. Of a story being told. Of "poetic > language." Of compression (again). Of poetic techniques. He even > mentioned Flash Fiction at one point in a sort of compare and contrast. > (The professor in him, I'm sure.) In the end, there was still much > confusion, follow-up questions left hanging in the air. No one wanted to go > through it again. > > JohnJ > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* stephen russell > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Sent:* Monday, October 24, 2011 4:44 PM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > of course, none of this explains the difference between contemporary > poetry & prose. Back in the day, it was easy. Back when meter was meter, and > iambs were iambs. Now, we need Grumman's help ... In our era of post form > ... poetry looks different, and novels are composed (rarely) of verse ... & > prose poems & flash fiction are nearly identical ... it's all too confusing > ... perhaps only someone trained in mathmatics can be of use ... > > Re-reading Gary Synder ... I'm convinced that he's the most erudite poet we > currently have ... a national treasure. > > --- On *Mon, 10/24/11, stephen russell *wrote: > > > From: stephen russell > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Monday, October 24, 2011, 3:37 PM > > Or semantics. & semantically speaking, perhaps the sentence is the > main form of all written communication ... or contemporary written language. > & verse is merely form > composed of the sentence, of sound. > > --- On *Sun, 10/23/11, Michael Snider * wrote: > > > From: Michael Snider > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Sunday, October 23, 2011, 8:09 PM > > Exactly right, Bill. > > www.mikesnider.org > > On Oct 23, 2011, at 19:43, "Bill Morgan" wrote: > > The line IS poetry. > > --Bob > > > Don?t want to start a fight, but Bob, wouldn?t it be more accurate to say > that ?The line IS verse?? I?d say that meaningful repetition (in lines, > sounds, visual elements, etc.) IS poetry. And not all poetry is verse, > right? > > Bill Morgan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ******** > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Oct 24 23:39:34 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 23:39:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem Message-ID: <77596.98ce34a.3bd78976@cs.com> Paul Roche once said something like "Prose describes drinking a glass of beer; poetry makes one think he has actually drunk it." Here he's speaking of the qualitative difference between "prose" (as we usually understand it) and "poetry" (not verse). But "just prose" and "just verse" (or "just versifying") are valid terms, even if they mix the meanings a little. We have "prose fiction" and "verse fiction" (narrative poems, for example). Jeez, this gets complicated, doesn't it? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Mon Oct 24 23:42:46 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 22:42:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem In-Reply-To: <77596.98ce34a.3bd78976@cs.com> References: <77596.98ce34a.3bd78976@cs.com> Message-ID: Langer said prose is discursive, poetry generally not, or is "ostensibly discursive" when it seems to be. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Mon, Oct 24, 2011 at 10:39 PM, wrote: > Paul Roche once said something like "Prose describes drinking a glass of > beer; poetry makes one think he has actually drunk it." > > Here he's speaking of the *qualitative* difference between "prose" (as we > usually understand it) and "poetry" (not *verse*). > > But "just prose" and "just verse" (or "just versifying") are valid terms, > even if they mix the meanings a little. > > We have "prose fiction" and "verse fiction" (narrative poems, for > example). > > Jeez, this gets complicated, doesn't it? > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Oct 25 06:44:32 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 06:44:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <1891970.1319491061568.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <1891970.1319491061568.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <03F79FB1CA3441FB8851946B1C52E467@BobHP> From: junction at earthlink.net Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:17 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Besides, if it works who cares what it's called? Only the sane, I suppose. People who want to be able to communicate. A person ordering a tuna salad in a restaurant and getting a brick, for instance. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Oct 25 06:51:40 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 06:51:40 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: References: <1319485060.94605.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><1319489078.31949.YahooMailClassic@web161920.mail.bf1 .yahoo.com> Message-ID: How come the reactionaries haven?t yet responded to my arguments against their strange notion that free verse doesn?t use lines? --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Oct 25 06:47:26 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 06:47:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <1891970.1319491061568.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <1891970.1319491061568.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <0492227F42EE4E1F9F4B6000156D4EB9@BobHP> From: junction at earthlink.net Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:17 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Besides, if it works who cares what it's called? -----Original Message----- From: junction at earthlink.net Sent: Oct 24, 2011 5:15 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line It's pretty easy. It's a matter of rhythm. Think of the prose poem as a single line. Or as a directio9n tio imagine it as a single line. Which does get one to read it in a particular way. It?s saner to think of it as prose, because it is, regardless of the paradoxical name given it but tenth-raters wanting to make a splash and have no sense of linguistic responsibility. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Tue Oct 25 08:32:20 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 05:32:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem In-Reply-To: References: <77596.98ce34a.3bd78976@cs.com> Message-ID: <1319545940.30876.YahooMailNeo@web120504.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Whoa.? I woke up this morning after a long dream in which I was discussing the subtleties between poetry and verse and prose poems and prose and...? I think even finger-painting was mentioned. What craziness!? I'm glad it was only a dream. JohnJ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 09:15:18 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 15:15:18 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Call for Work: Inaugural Issue of The Barefoot Review In-Reply-To: <1319497697.7789.YahooMailNeo@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <1319497697.7789.YahooMailNeo@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Congratulations, Amy! On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 1:08 AM, amy king wrote: > The Barefoot Review publishes original written work by people who have or > have had physical difficulties in their lives, from cancer to seizures, > Alzheimer's to tumors. It is also a place for caretakers, families, > significant others and friends to write about their experiences and > relationships to the person. They are a vital part to being able to live > with an illness. > Submissions Guidelines > The Barefoot Review is a new publication. Our purpose is to help people who > have faced serious health issues. We publish twice a year, on the winter > solstice and summer solstice. We look forward to reading all submissions. > Who Should Submit? > We are looking for submissions from two categories of people: 1) those who > currently have or have survived a serious health issue and 2) those in their > lives?caretakers, families, significant others and friends. From each > category of people we are looking for different content. From the challenged > person we are looking for any subject, especially concerning aspects of > living or surviving. From people in the challenged person's life we'd like > writing about the person or your relationship with him or her. > Specifics > We accept submissions year-round of unpublished* work. Please submit up to > five poems or a short prose piece (max 1000 words) per edition. Simultaneous > submissions are acceptable; however, we request that you inform us > immediately if your work is accepted elsewhere. We will let you know as soon > as possible if your work will be published here. > > - Poetry is limited to no more than 5 poems. > - Prose is limited to 1000 words. > - Any style is acceptable, from personal tragedy to humorous > reflection, with poetry from free-verse to rhyming. > > Please email work in the body of the message; attached files will not be > opened. Also provide a brief biography of yourself (and the person with the > illness if that is not yourself). > The Barefoot Review acquires first-time North American rights. After > publication, all rights revert to the author and may be reprinted as long as > appropriate acknowledgment to The Barefoot Review is made. > * Note: published work does not include posted on personal blogs or > websites. > Send email with work to submissions at barefootreview.org > > http://www.barefootreview.org/ > > > ********* > Amy's Alias > + http://amyking.org/ > ******** > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Oct 25 11:08:24 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 11:08:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem In-Reply-To: <77284.5c536408.3bd78736@cs.com> References: <77284.5c536408.3bd78736@cs.com> Message-ID: <6141C7BD526E4227AA9FF4371B149C4A@BobHP> To say that a prose poem isn't poetry because it isn't verse is absurd. Why? What?s wrong with defining poetry objectively as having lines, prose, including ?prose poems,? as not having lines? If a prose poem is a poem, what isn?t? (Actually, my own definition of poetry is slightly more complex than ?having lines? because of things in some poems like internal li ne breaks, so I define poetry as language having flow-breaks?as I said many years ago here.) --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Oct 25 11:16:47 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 11:16:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem In-Reply-To: <998A7974-14FF-4D1D-A963-A3D7B8DE1A2D@mikesnider.org> References: <23438930.1319490957020.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net><1319495289.98291.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><8CE60BEB3E2B8D4-1008-644CB@webmail-m103.syso ps.aol.com><1319503954.18385.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><01db01cc92b3$7b1ea930$715bfb90$@ilstu.edu> <998A7974-14FF-4D1D-A963-A3D7B8DE1A2D@mikesnider.org> Message-ID: From: Michael Snider Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 9:39 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem I have real problem with the distinction between poetry and verse. A bad painting is still a painting. A bad poem is still a poem. I wholly agree. The distinction, a subjective one, is entirely due to propagandists who want an easy way to smite poetry they don?t like. And it?s so easy to avoid by calling one kind of poetry metrical verse and the other kind free verse. When discussing conventional words-only poetry. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Oct 25 11:40:48 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 11:40:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein In-Reply-To: References: <1319501874.52652.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1. yahoo.com> Message-ID: Why, to put it crassly, are the queers so prominent in the arts? Our politically correct society makes it is near impossible for any heterosexual male with a functioning mind who wants to remains socially acceptable to answer a question like this. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 12:05:10 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 09:05:10 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 8:40 AM, bob grumman wrote: > Why, to put it crassly, are the queers so prominent in the arts? > > Our politically correct society makes it is near impossible for any > heterosexual male with a functioning mind who wants to remains socially > acceptable to answer a question like this. > > --Bob G. > Try this one, then: Is "macho" equivalent to "butch"? -- Jim Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Oct 25 12:39:20 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 12:39:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: James Cervantes Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 12:05 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 8:40 AM, bob grumman wrote: Why, to put it crassly, are the queers so prominent in the arts? Our politically correct society makes it is near impossible for any heterosexual male with a functioning mind who wants to remain socially acceptable to answer a question like this. --Bob G. Try this one, then: Is "macho" equivalent to "butch"? -- Jim I?d say ?macho? is to heterosexual male what ?butch? is to homosexual female. It doesn?t seem to me a politically sensitive question. But now I?m confused?can?t remember what the more male homosexual males are called. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Oct 25 12:57:55 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 12:57:55 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein Message-ID: <21059965.1319561875846.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 13:09:27 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 12:09:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] what makes it a prose poem In-Reply-To: <6141C7BD526E4227AA9FF4371B149C4A@BobHP> References: <77284.5c536408.3bd78736@cs.com> <6141C7BD526E4227AA9FF4371B149C4A@BobHP> Message-ID: I prefer language having coffee-breaks, myself. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 10:08 AM, bob grumman wrote: > To say that a prose poem isn't poetry because it isn't verse is absurd. > > Why? What?s wrong with defining poetry objectively as having lines, > prose, including ?prose poems,? as not having lines? If a prose poem is a > poem, what isn?t? > > (Actually, my own definition of poetry is slightly more complex than > ?having lines? because of things in some poems like internal li ne > breaks, so I define poetry as language having flow-breaks?as I said many > years ago here.) > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Tue Oct 25 14:55:32 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 11:55:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319568932.47766.YahooMailClassic@web161917.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> i'll but in. they do seem as though they're sin/o/nims. --- On Tue, 10/25/11, James Cervantes wrote: From: James Cervantes Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Tuesday, October 25, 2011, 12:05 PM On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 8:40 AM, bob grumman wrote: Why, to put it crassly, are the queers so prominent in the arts? ? Our politically correct society makes it is near impossible for any heterosexual male with a functioning mind who wants to remains socially acceptable to answer a question like this. ? --Bob G. Try this one, then: ?Is "macho" equivalent to "butch"?? -- Jim Sol Literary Magazine:?http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Tue Oct 25 15:06:35 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 12:06:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319569595.73005.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> 10/25/11, bob grumman wrote: There are actually people out there who think that a poem without conventional stanzas doesn't merit the status of poems? Is that what you're saying, Bob? If true, those people are reactionaries. You once called Harold Bloom a reactionary (using the term a bit too freely).?He's merely set in his way, a little old fashioned. He, is, after all, hype to the poets of his age group that were, at one time, major innovators. From: bob grumman Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Tuesday, October 25, 2011, 6:51 AM How come the reactionaries haven?t yet responded to my arguments against their strange notion that free verse doesn?t use lines? ? --Bob -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Oct 25 15:25:33 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 15:25:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein In-Reply-To: <21059965.1319561875846.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <21059965.1319561875846.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: From: junction at earthlink.net Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 12:57 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein True in most Western cultures (I can't speak for the rest), probably because of their marginalization. One could as easily ask why so many Jews. Same answer. Not quite, I don?t think. That IQ guy managed to do it without too many howls from the politically correct (at least, so it seemed to me). Unlike his theory on the really sensitive question as to why there are so few blacks in certain fields. I can?t remember his name. Begins with an M? A question I?ve found fascinating is the one as to why, if homosexuality is due to genes (and I?m sure it is), it is that we have homosexuality since homosexuals would tend not to reproduce themselves. I would love to see a breakdown on percentages of homosexual males and females in the following categories: musical composition, painting&sculpture, fiction, play-writing, poetry, pure mathematics, theoretical physics, chemistry, biology, philosophy, the social sciences. Also, because it?s my field, in Wilshberia, what I call pure language poetry, and visual poetry. Of course, too much of the data is concealed for that to be possible. My impression is that visual poetry does not attract homosexuals as much as language poetry does, and that Wilshberia attracts them more than language poetry does. I have very little supporting data, only that I personally know few visual poets to be homosexual. A key one for me, Robert Lax, was (I?m pretty sure). I can?t think of any particular reason why it would be so?except that visual poetry tends not to be concerned with human relationships, and homosexuals are?the male ones, at any rate?as are women, who also are not common in visual poetry, although several of the best, in my view, are. The late Bill Keith was the only black visual poet I personally knew. Good friend, admirable poet?and all-around artist. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Tue Oct 25 15:27:28 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 12:27:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319570848.11986.YahooMailClassic@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> PC should be put into context. Here, this listserv is open to (free) inquiry. Or is it? The answer to these questions is rather simple. Outsiders are almost always in a position to see the world differently from the mainstream, be they Jew, queer, or gypsy. Since I rarely leave D.C., I consider myself a gypsy of the mind. From: bob grumman Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Tuesday, October 25, 2011, 12:39 PM ? ? From: James Cervantes Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 12:05 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein ? On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 8:40 AM, bob grumman wrote: Why, to put it crassly, are the queers so prominent in the arts? ? Our politically correct society makes it is near impossible for any heterosexual male with a functioning mind who wants to remain socially acceptable to answer a question like this. ? --Bob G. ? Try this one, then:? Is "macho" equivalent to "butch"? -- Jim ? I?d say ?macho? is to heterosexual male what ?butch? is to homosexual female.? It doesn?t seem to me a politically sensitive question.? But now I?m confused?can?t remember what the more male homosexual males are called. ? --Bob -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Oct 25 15:33:12 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 15:33:12 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein Message-ID: <12838748.1319571192534.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Tue Oct 25 15:33:37 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 15:33:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein In-Reply-To: <21059965.1319561875846.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <21059965.1319561875846.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: If true, then why so few Native Americans? Or is it just that so many have names like "Sherman Alexie"? Or am I just ignorant? www.mikesnider.org On Oct 25, 2011, at 12:57, junction at earthlink.net wrote: > True in most Western cultures (I can't speak for the rest), probably because of their marginalization. One could as easily ask why so many Jews. Same answer. > > -----Original Message----- > From: bob grumman > Sent: Oct 25, 2011 11:40 AM > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein > > Why, to put it crassly, are the queers so prominent in the arts? > > Our politically correct society makes it is near impossible for any heterosexual male with a functioning mind who wants to remains socially acceptable to answer a question like this. > > --Bob G. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Oct 25 15:37:01 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 15:37:01 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein Message-ID: <28041742.1319571421328.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 15:43:26 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 12:43:26 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein In-Reply-To: <1319570848.11986.YahooMailClassic@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1319570848.11986.YahooMailClassic@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: from Until Death Do Us Part. The marriage between art and madness ?, Anne Stahl [http://www.annestahl.com/thesis/chap1-3d.htm]: "Homosexuality is of course not sick or mad, but it is unusual and thus considered abnormal (abnormal being unlike the norm, i.e. a minority). The rather large percentage of homosexuals in the arts demands explanation. According to G. Domino 'there are no statistical grounds for assuming that homosexuals are more successfully creative than heterosexuals' based on a test of getting representatives of both groups to engage in creative writing. The social background of a homosexual individual is likely to be very different from that of a heterosexual in that the homosexual person continuously has to fight discrimination. In a lot of cases, I imagine, especially before the 1970's, these individuals were forced to hide their sexual orientation. Creativity is a way to legitimately communicate these feelings. Since the people involved in the arts are supposedly more liberal than members of other professions, the 'outcast' will find acceptance and respect here more than elsewhere. These are possible reasons why a homosexual individual might be drawn to the creative profession. That is not to say that they are not genuinely creative. For those who believe that there is an artist in everyone, and that it just needs to be developed the above mentioned ideas are fundamental. Also responsible for the large percentage of homosexuals in the arts, is the fact that the artistic work environment allows for eccentricity and unusual behavior." On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 12:27 PM, stephen russell < poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: > PC should be put into context. Here, this listserv is open to (free) > inquiry. Or is it? The answer to these questions is rather simple. Outsiders > are almost always in a position to see the world differently from the > mainstream, be they Jew, queer, or gypsy. Since I rarely leave D.C., I > consider myself a gypsy of the mind. > > ** > > > From: bob grumman > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Tuesday, October 25, 2011, 12:39 PM > > > > > *From:* James Cervantes > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 25, 2011 12:05 PM > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein > > > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 8:40 AM, bob grumman > > wrote: > > Why, to put it crassly, are the queers so prominent in the arts? > > Our politically correct society makes it is near impossible for any > heterosexual male with a functioning mind who wants to remain socially > acceptable to answer a question like this. > > --Bob G. > > > Try this one, then: Is "macho" equivalent to "butch"? > > -- Jim > > I?d say ?macho? is to heterosexual male what ?butch? is to homosexual > female. It doesn?t seem to me a politically sensitive question. But now > I?m confused?can?t remember what the more male homosexual males are called. > > --Bob > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Oct 25 15:45:52 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 15:45:52 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <1319569595.73005.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1319569595.73005.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <444B0CCB34A14994BF38E0FD4D5820EE@BobHP> From: stephen russell Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 3:06 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line 10/25/11, bob grumman wrote: There are actually people out there who think that a poem without conventional stanzas doesn't merit the status of poems? Is that what you're saying, Bob? If true, those people are reactionaries. You once called Harold Bloom a reactionary (using the term a bit too freely). He's merely set in his way, a little old fashioned. He, is, after all, hype to the poets of his age group that were, at one time, major innovators. From: bob grumman Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Tuesday, October 25, 2011, 6:51 AM How come the reactionaries haven?t yet responded to my arguments against their strange notion that free verse doesn?t use lines? --Bob I was just trying to get replies from the people who were claiming the only kind of line that qualified as a line had to be metrical which made no sense to me?and did suggest that hose claiming that were reactionarily returning to the idea that unmetrical texts are not poetry. One of them later agreed with me that free verse consists of lines, so I think they probably all temporarily became absent-minded or something. Bloom is a reactionary by my definition because he is only (somewhat) aware of the poets who were considered important when he was a college student, or (in a very few cases, perhaps with Vendler?s prodding) a little later, but none since. He never discovered any poet the way Vendler discovered (so I?ve read) Ashbery (but no poet doing a different kind of poetry than she was brought up on). I found his daddy is important theory interestingly wrong, and his utter highly influential indifference to all forms of innovative poetry since 1960 disgusting. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Tue Oct 25 15:46:14 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 12:46:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein In-Reply-To: <28041742.1319571421328.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1319571974.3379.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Many native Americans probably prefer to keep their traditions within their own culture, safe from roadside bandits. I've read plenty of native writers. Joy Harjo is gifted in any number of fields ... we can go on ... Scott (is it) Nomaday ... maybe Momaday ... Loius Eldridge/her late husband, Michael Dorris (or Norris) ... it has been a while since I've read Native American lit, but the talent, no doubt, is around. How much will make it into the mainstream, who knows. Probably very little does ... my guess, less than most --- On Tue, 10/25/11, junction at earthlink.net wrote: From: junction at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Tuesday, October 25, 2011, 3:37 PM #yiv1043991666 body{font-family:Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:9pt;background-color:#ffffff;color:black;} Education also counts, and Indians (most prefer to be called Indians) are one of the less educated groups. But yes, ignorance. Lots of Native American writers, considering the very small population. Best, Mark -----Original Message----- From: Michael Snider Sent: Oct 25, 2011 3:33 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein If true, then why so few Native Americans? ?Or is it just that so many have names like "Sherman Alexie"? Or am I just ignorant? www.mikesnider.org On Oct 25, 2011, at 12:57, junction at earthlink.net wrote: #yiv1043991666 body{font-family:Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:9pt;background-color:#ffffff;color:black;} True in most Western cultures (I can't speak for the rest), probably because of their marginalization. One could as easily ask why so many Jews. Same answer. -----Original Message----- From: bob grumman Sent: Oct 25, 2011 11:40 AM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein Why, to put it crassly, are the queers so prominent in the arts? ? Our politically correct society makes it is near impossible for any heterosexual male with a functioning mind who wants to remains socially acceptable to answer a question like this. ? --Bob G. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Tue Oct 25 15:48:50 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 12:48:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <444B0CCB34A14994BF38E0FD4D5820EE@BobHP> Message-ID: <1319572130.86201.YahooMailClassic@web161913.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Good answer. The guy simply doesn't give a damn about anything after 1960. Now I get it. --- On Tue, 10/25/11, bob grumman wrote: From: bob grumman Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Tuesday, October 25, 2011, 3:45 PM ? ? From: stephen russell Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 3:06 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line ? 10/25/11, bob grumman wrote: There are actually people out there who think that a poem without conventional stanzas doesn't merit the status of poems? Is that what you're saying, Bob? If true, those people are reactionaries. You once called Harold Bloom a reactionary (using the term a bit too freely). He's merely set in his way, a little old fashioned. He, is, after all, hype to the poets of his age group that were, at one time, major innovators. From: bob grumman Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Tuesday, October 25, 2011, 6:51 AM How come the reactionaries haven?t yet responded to my arguments against their strange notion that free verse doesn?t use lines? ? --Bob ? I was just trying to get replies from the people who were claiming the only kind of line that qualified as a line had to be metrical which made no sense to me?and did suggest that hose claiming that were reactionarily returning to the idea that unmetrical texts are not poetry.? One of them later agreed with me that free verse consists of lines, so I think they probably all temporarily became absent-minded or something. Bloom is a reactionary by my definition because he is only (somewhat) aware of the poets who were considered important when he was a college student, or (in a very few cases, perhaps with Vendler?s prodding) a little later, but none since.? He never discovered any poet the way Vendler discovered (so I?ve read) Ashbery (but no poet doing a different kind of poetry than she was brought up on).? I found his daddy is important theory interestingly wrong, and his utter highly influential indifference to all forms of innovative poetry since 1960 disgusting. --Bob -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Oct 25 15:51:13 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 15:51:13 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein In-Reply-To: References: <21059965.1319561875846.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: From: Michael Snider Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 3:33 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein If true, then why so few Native Americans? Or is it just that so many have names like "Sherman Alexie"? Or am I just ignorant? I think you?re asking a different question, Mike. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Tue Oct 25 15:39:31 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 15:39:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein In-Reply-To: <12838748.1319571192534.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <12838748.1319571192534.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <0C847CA0-5197-432F-B465-06D26D6E0677@mikesnider.org> It's also the case that some genes inhibit reproduction in the organism in which they're expressed but contribute to the well-being and/or reproductive success of close relatives. That wonderful aunt/uncle who never married or had children of her/his own ... www.mikesnider.org On Oct 25, 2011, at 15:33, junction at earthlink.net wrote: > Let's say that whatever genes are involved are recessives present in a significant part of the population. If two bearers of the gene(s) mate a percentage of their offspring would also be bearers and a smaller percentage would express the gene(s). Some, even though nominally gay, would occasionally beget kids--it happens a lot. But even failing that, the gene(s) would continue to be carried. That, or it's a fairly common mutation. > -----Original Message----- > From: stephen russell > Sent: Oct 25, 2011 3:27 PM > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein > > PC should be put into context. Here, this listserv is open to (free) inquiry. Or is it? The answer to these questions is rather simple. Outsiders are almost always in a position to see the world differently from the mainstream, be they Jew, queer, or gypsy. Since I rarely leave D.C., I consider myself a gypsy of the mind. > > > > From: bob grumman > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Tuesday, October 25, 2011, 12:39 PM > > > > From: James Cervantes > Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 12:05 PM > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein > > > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 8:40 AM, bob grumman wrote: > Why, to put it crassly, are the queers so prominent in the arts? > > Our politically correct society makes it is near impossible for any heterosexual male with a functioning mind who wants to remain socially acceptable to answer a question like this. > > --Bob G. > > Try this one, then: Is "macho" equivalent to "butch"? > > -- Jim > > I?d say ?macho? is to heterosexual male what ?butch? is to homosexual female. It doesn?t seem to me a politically sensitive question. But now I?m confused?can?t remember what the more male homosexual males are called. > > --Bob > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From millb at aol.com Tue Oct 25 16:05:08 2011 From: millb at aol.com (Millicent Borges Accardi) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 16:05:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Imagination as salvation? Message-ID: <8CE6168872B75B6-1018-88E00@webmail-d181.sysops.aol.com> Greetings all What does the notion of imagination as salvation mean? Take a look at two of my poems to see for yourself at Womens Voices for Change. Thanks and if you feel inspired, please leave a comment on the website. Ciao Millicent http://womensvoicesforchange.org/poetry-sunday-two-from-millicent-borges-accardi.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Tue Oct 25 16:12:09 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 16:12:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein In-Reply-To: <28041742.1319571421328.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <28041742.1319571421328.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <94D81493-BDBA-4D73-818B-AC2441EAC4D0@mikesnider.org> Good point about education. I met Alexie quite some time ago - but since I haven't lived near a real city nor even a moderately large university (or bookstore - have you looked at a Barnes & Noble poetry section lately?) for about 20 years, many living writers are just names to me - I don't make any effort to find out ethnicities/heritages/orientations/capabilities because I don't really care - and not because I'm a straight white male, since I'm a bi white male. Of course it's sometimes obvious from book jackets or themes or subjects - though I would hope a good writer could fool me if he/she wanted to. Wasn't there a controversy not too long ago involving a writer who had pretended (or allowed people to believe) that he or she was something other than what he or she was? Anyway, I'm glad it's my ignorance. www.mikesnider.org On Oct 25, 2011, at 15:37, junction at earthlink.net wrote: > Education also counts, and Indians (most prefer to be called Indians) are one of the less educated groups. But yes, ignorance. Lots of Native American writers, considering the very small population. > > Best, > > Mark > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Snider > Sent: Oct 25, 2011 3:33 PM > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein > > If true, then why so few Native Americans? Or is it just that so many have names like "Sherman Alexie"? Or am I just ignorant? > > www.mikesnider.org > > On Oct 25, 2011, at 12:57, junction at earthlink.net wrote: > >> True in most Western cultures (I can't speak for the rest), probably because of their marginalization. One could as easily ask why so many Jews. Same answer. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: bob grumman >> Sent: Oct 25, 2011 11:40 AM >> To: NewPoetry List >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein >> >> Why, to put it crassly, are the queers so prominent in the arts? >> >> Our politically correct society makes it is near impossible for any heterosexual male with a functioning mind who wants to remains socially acceptable to answer a question like this. >> >> --Bob G. >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Tue Oct 25 16:56:08 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 16:56:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein In-Reply-To: <1319571974.3379.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1319571974.3379.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <137B9468-DEF0-4479-AD67-C6F7C91A1B38@mikesnider.org> I know Momaday's and Erdrich's work, and Joy Harjo's as well. And I'm aware that there are real problems with what is viewed as - and often is, in fact - misappropriation of Indian culture. But if marginalization is an important reason that queer folk and Jews are disproportionately represented in the arts, disproportinate to the point that it's become a stereotype, my question, I think, still stands: Are Native Americans disproportionately represented in the arts? If not, why not? Mark's point about education is a good one, and so is yours about some folks, with good reason, keeping themselves to themselves. And maybe there are important reasons beyond marginalization. And maybe the stereotypes are just wrong. www.mikesnider.org On Oct 25, 2011, at 15:46, stephen russell wrote: > Many native Americans probably prefer to keep their traditions within their own culture, safe from roadside bandits. I've read plenty of native writers. Joy Harjo is gifted in any number of fields ... we can go on ... Scott (is it) Nomaday ... maybe Momaday ... Loius Eldridge/her late husband, Michael Dorris (or Norris) ... it has been a while since I've read Native American lit, but the talent, no doubt, is around. How much will make it into the mainstream, who knows. Probably very little does ... my guess, less than most > > --- On Tue, 10/25/11, junction at earthlink.net wrote: > > From: junction at earthlink.net > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Tuesday, October 25, 2011, 3:37 PM > > Education also counts, and Indians (most prefer to be called Indians) are one of the less educated groups. But yes, ignorance. Lots of Native American writers, considering the very small population. > > Best, > > Mark > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Snider > Sent: Oct 25, 2011 3:33 PM > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein > > If true, then why so few Native Americans? Or is it just that so many have names like "Sherman Alexie"? Or am I just ignorant? > > www.mikesnider.org > > On Oct 25, 2011, at 12:57, junction at earthlink.net wrote: > >> True in most Western cultures (I can't speak for the rest), probably because of their marginalization. One could as easily ask why so many Jews. Same answer. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: bob grumman >> Sent: Oct 25, 2011 11:40 AM >> To: NewPoetry List >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein >> >> Why, to put it crassly, are the queers so prominent in the arts? >> >> Our politically correct society makes it is near impossible for any heterosexual male with a functioning mind who wants to remains socially acceptable to answer a question like this. >> >> --Bob G. >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Oct 25 18:02:11 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 18:02:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein In-Reply-To: <0C847CA0-5197-432F-B465-06D26D6E0677@mikesnider.org> References: <12838748.1319571192534.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <0C847CA0-5197-432F-B465-06D26D6E0677@mikesnider.org> Message-ID: From: Michael Snider Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 3:39 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein It's also the case that some genes inhibit reproduction in the organism in which they're expressed but contribute to the well-being and/or reproductive success of close relatives. That wonderful aunt/uncle who never married or had children of her/his own ... Right, that?s part of my explanation. (Had to be since I?ve had no kids!) --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Oct 25 18:08:58 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 18:08:58 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein In-Reply-To: <137B9468-DEF0-4479-AD67-C6F7C91A1B38@mikesnider.org> References: <1319571974.3379.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <137B9468-DEF0-4479-AD67-C6F7C91A1B38@mikesnider.org> Message-ID: <536F2797C8764AD7A18C8F061B97E397@BobHP> From: Michael Snider Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 4:56 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein I know Momaday's and Erdrich's work, and Joy Harjo's as well. And I'm aware that there are real problems with what is viewed as - and often is, in fact - misappropriation of Indian culture. But if marginalization is an important reason that queer folk and Jews are disproportionately represented in the arts, disproportinate to the point that it's become a stereotype, my question, I think, still stands: Are Native Americans disproportionately represented in the arts? No. If not, why not? Mark's point about education is a good one, and so is yours about some folks, with good reason, keeping themselves to themselves. And maybe there are important reasons beyond marginalization. And maybe the stereotypes are just wrong. An obvious factor is that homosexuals and Jews have always been part of Western European culture. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Oct 25 18:15:57 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 18:15:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein In-Reply-To: <0C847CA0-5197-432F-B465-06D26D6E0677@mikesnider.org> References: <12838748.1319571192534.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <0C847CA0-5197-432F-B465-06D26D6E0677@mikesnider.org> Message-ID: From: Michael Snider Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 3:39 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein It's also the case that some genes inhibit reproduction in the organism in which they're expressed but contribute to the well-being which would contribute to the reproductive success of close relatives. That wonderful aunt/uncle who never married or had children of her/his own ... Not only close relatives, either, I would add. Unless you think non-reproducers like Beethoven and Newton and the like haven?t added to the reproductive success of their tribes. In part, merely by not being hindered by family. But I tend to believe some of us are like worker bees, wired to be irrelevant to direct reproduction (or close to it) but essential to the species. The wiring might be homosexuality or simply a kind of vocational monomania. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 18:38:56 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 17:38:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <444B0CCB34A14994BF38E0FD4D5820EE@BobHP> References: <1319569595.73005.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <444B0CCB34A14994BF38E0FD4D5820EE@BobHP> Message-ID: You think the line fetishists are bad? Wait till you get to the foot fetishists. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 2:45 PM, bob grumman wrote: > > > *From:* stephen russell > *Sent:* Tuesday, October 25, 2011 3:06 PM > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > *10/25/11, bob grumman * wrote: > > There are actually people out there who think that a poem without > conventional stanzas doesn't merit the status of poems? Is that what you're > saying, Bob? If true, those people are reactionaries. You once called Harold > Bloom a reactionary (using the term a bit too freely). He's merely set in > his way, a little old fashioned. He, is, after all, hype to the poets of his > age group that were, at one time, major innovators. > > From: bob grumman > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Tuesday, October 25, 2011, 6:51 AM > > How come the reactionaries haven?t yet responded to my arguments against > their strange notion that free verse doesn?t use lines? > > --Bob > > > I was just trying to get replies from the people who were claiming the > only kind of line that qualified as a line had to be metrical which made no > sense to me?and *did* suggest that hose claiming that were reactionarily > returning to the idea that unmetrical texts are not poetry. One of them > later agreed with me that free verse consists of lines, so I think they > probably all temporarily became absent-minded or something. > > Bloom is a reactionary by my definition because he is only (somewhat) aware > of the poets who were considered important when he was a college student, or > (in a very few cases, perhaps with Vendler?s prodding) a little later, but > none since. He never discovered any poet the way Vendler discovered (so > I?ve read) Ashbery (but no poet doing a different kind of poetry than she > was brought up on). I found his daddy is important theory interestingly > wrong, and his utter highly influential indifference to all forms of > innovative poetry since 1960 disgusting. > > --Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 18:52:16 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 15:52:16 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: References: <1319569595.73005.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <444B0CCB34A14994BF38E0FD4D5820EE@BobHP> Message-ID: Not to mention those drooling syllabic fetishists. - Jim On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 3:38 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > You think the line fetishists are bad? Wait till you get to the foot > fetishists. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Tue, Oct 25, 2011 at 2:45 PM, bob grumman wrote: > >> >> >> *From:* stephen russell >> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 25, 2011 3:06 PM >> *To:* NewPoetry List >> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >> >> *10/25/11, bob grumman * wrote: >> >> There are actually people out there who think that a poem without >> conventional stanzas doesn't merit the status of poems? Is that what you're >> saying, Bob? If true, those people are reactionaries. You once called Harold >> Bloom a reactionary (using the term a bit too freely). He's merely set in >> his way, a little old fashioned. He, is, after all, hype to the poets of his >> age group that were, at one time, major innovators. >> >> From: bob grumman >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >> To: "NewPoetry List" >> Date: Tuesday, October 25, 2011, 6:51 AM >> >> How come the reactionaries haven?t yet responded to my arguments >> against their strange notion that free verse doesn?t use lines? >> >> --Bob >> >> >> I was just trying to get replies from the people who were claiming the >> only kind of line that qualified as a line had to be metrical which made no >> sense to me?and *did* suggest that hose claiming that were reactionarily >> returning to the idea that unmetrical texts are not poetry. One of them >> later agreed with me that free verse consists of lines, so I think they >> probably all temporarily became absent-minded or something. >> >> Bloom is a reactionary by my definition because he is only (somewhat) >> aware of the poets who were considered important when he was a college >> student, or (in a very few cases, perhaps with Vendler?s prodding) a little >> later, but none since. He never discovered any poet the way Vendler >> discovered (so I?ve read) Ashbery (but no poet doing a different kind of >> poetry than she was brought up on). I found his daddy is important theory >> interestingly wrong, and his utter highly influential indifference to all >> forms of innovative poetry since 1960 disgusting. >> >> --Bob >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Tue Oct 25 23:15:18 2011 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 20:15:18 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: References: <1319569595.73005.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <444B0CCB34A14994BF38E0FD4D5820EE@BobHP> Message-ID: The "open [form]" line is under-theorized -- and lines as parts of maps or logical / mathematical arguments, or etc. -- it is one place an argument like Gudding's runs into real problems, being less a generation of new theory than a rehash. Additionally, the "history of the line" here seems to be the history of relatively recent "theory about the line" that doesn't take a lot of practices into account -- I want to say "most" practices, though that isn't true -- maybe "interesting aspects about lines that aren't doing tried and true and predictable things, and the history of those." This boring history seems to begin with print culture without describing the visual aspects of lineation -- and even poorly addresses sonic aspects of "lines" except for meter, syllabics, and rhyme -- ignoring the history of poetry, which is far older. Sure, it includes things like breath and musical phrase (lyrics for music being I think under-theorized as well)... I like the anecdote of the confused prose poet. With the "plain speech" standard in performance, there's a certain desire on the part of many formal poets to write things that are essentially prose in performance, seemingly "natural," but very artificial on the page -- the way the work gets an extra "level" built in. But I'm thinking about things that cannot be performed, but of course ARE frequently performed, whether in person, in recording, or on the page, or screen, or whatever. All best, Catherine Indoor plumbing not on septic probably up there with closed shoes shaped like actual feet and tp as far as purity/pollution goes, not sure what this has to do with prose poetry against lineated poetry -- it is not like prose poetry is "dirty." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Oct 25 23:56:41 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 23:56:41 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein Message-ID: <29702496.1319601401583.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Oct 25 23:55:27 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 25 Oct 2011 23:55:27 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein Message-ID: <3851271.1319601328236.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 10:09:03 2011 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:09:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse Message-ID: Poetic justice New anthology aims to be the last word on 20th century verse October 21, 2011|Julia Keller | CULTURAL CRITIC A good anthology is like a dartboard in a crowded bar on a Saturday night. Everybody lines up to take their best shot. Everybody wants the chance to squint, aim and let fly. The more august and monumental and definitive-seeming the anthology ? the fancier its packaging, the more famous and revered its editor ? the more it invites criticism, arguments, carping and nitpicking. That's the fun of an anthology. Indeed, the robustness of such a collection is measured not by a solemn, reverential hush descending upon its publication, but by noisy, lively, vehement disagreement. http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-10-21/entertainment/ct-ae-1023-lit-life-main-20111021_1_poet-laureate-rita-dove-nikki-giovanni --Jeff Newberry -- Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and lived syncopation. ?Yusef Komunyakaa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Wed Oct 26 10:20:54 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:20:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein In-Reply-To: <3851271.1319601328236.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <3851271.1319601328236.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <797DD16D-6BD5-4A0A-8F02-3D8ABBD57CD0@mikesnider.org> Thanks for the link! On Oct 25, 2011, at 11:55 PM, junction at earthlink.net wrote: > Check this out: http://faculty.weber.edu/kmackay/native_american_literature.htm. Lots and lots of writers. Harjo was married to Simon Ortiz, a first-class Acoma poet. > > -----Original Message----- > From: stephen russell > Sent: Oct 25, 2011 3:46 PM > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein > > Many native Americans probably prefer to keep their traditions within their own culture, safe from roadside bandits. I've read plenty of native writers. Joy Harjo is gifted in any number of fields ... we can go on ... Scott (is it) Nomaday ... maybe Momaday ... Loius Eldridge/her late husband, Michael Dorris (or Norris) ... it has been a while since I've read Native American lit, but the talent, no doubt, is around. How much will make it into the mainstream, who knows. Probably very little does ... my guess, less than most > > --- On Tue, 10/25/11, junction at earthlink.net wrote: > > From: junction at earthlink.net > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Tuesday, October 25, 2011, 3:37 PM > > Education also counts, and Indians (most prefer to be called Indians) are one of the less educated groups. But yes, ignorance. Lots of Native American writers, considering the very small population. > > Best, > > Mark > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Snider > Sent: Oct 25, 2011 3:33 PM > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein > > If true, then why so few Native Americans? Or is it just that so many have names like "Sherman Alexie"? Or am I just ignorant? > > www.mikesnider.org > > On Oct 25, 2011, at 12:57, junction at earthlink.net wrote: > >> True in most Western cultures (I can't speak for the rest), probably because of their marginalization. One could as easily ask why so many Jews. Same answer. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: bob grumman >> Sent: Oct 25, 2011 11:40 AM >> To: NewPoetry List >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein >> >> Why, to put it crassly, are the queers so prominent in the arts? >> >> Our politically correct society makes it is near impossible for any heterosexual male with a functioning mind who wants to remains socially acceptable to answer a question like this. >> >> --Bob G. >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Wed Oct 26 11:37:58 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 11:37:58 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein Message-ID: <12075855.1319643478673.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Wed Oct 26 11:34:47 2011 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:34:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Rodney Jones's Imaginary Logic Message-ID: Just published yesterday, Rodney Jones?s new collection Imaginary Logic is one I?ve been looking forward to since last winter, when I heard Jones read some poems from it. By chance I discovered yesterday that Jones?s page on Facebook is set to Public, and he has slighly over a thousand friends. (He is large, he contains multitudes.) I don?t suppose I am violating any privacy issues, then, by reposting here a series of status updates he put up yesterday, which I much enjoyed, as I expect to enjoy the book. My new poetry book, IMAGINARY LOGIC, is out today from Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Buy it and join thousands who suddenly find their hair more lustrous and their odds improved in games of chance. Only a few hours into publication day, many are reporting that they are buying extra copies of IMAGINARY LOGIC to leave on the steps of abandoned tenements and in the ruts of lanes leading to abandoned farmsteads, for it is said that, ghosts, on first reading the book, discover their formerly incorporeal arms covered with goose bumps and their earthly appetites renewed. To continue the updates on an eventful publication day, I try not to expect too much of a poetry book like IMAGINARY LOGIC, but I have been heartened by reports that in playgrounds all over the country little boys are gathering caches of imaginary weapons and burning or dismantling them. --Rodney Jones, Facebook page 10-25-11 -- ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Wed Oct 26 11:48:50 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 11:48:50 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse Message-ID: <17860512.1319644131135.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 11:55:10 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:55:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: <17860512.1319644131135.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <17860512.1319644131135.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: What Mark said. Just guessing that Bob would be right on target about the contents. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 10:48 AM, wrote: > I'd love to see the table of contents, but I'm guessing that this is an > anthology of mainstream taste, at least as far as the poets cited in the > review. Stephen Dobyns and Mary Oliver as a walk on the wild side? How well > rep-resented are the Beats, Black Mountain, New York School? The Imagists? > I'll lay odds that there isn't a single line of Charles Olson, who remains > for many of us the great voice of the second half of the century. And I'd be > real surprised if Armand Schwerner were included. I know, I'm dreaming. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Newberry ** > Sent: Oct 26, 2011 10:09 AM > To: NewPoetry ** > Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse > > Poetic justice > New anthology aims to be the last word on 20th century verse > > October 21, 2011|Julia Keller | CULTURAL CRITIC > > A good anthology is like a dartboard in a crowded bar on a Saturday night. > Everybody lines up to take their best shot. Everybody wants the chance to > squint, aim and let fly. > > The more august and monumental and definitive-seeming the anthology ? the > fancier its packaging, the more famous and revered its editor ? the more it > invites criticism, arguments, carping and nitpicking. That's the fun of an > anthology. Indeed, the robustness of such a collection is measured not by a > solemn, reverential hush descending upon its publication, but by noisy, > lively, vehement disagreement. > > > > http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-10-21/entertainment/ct-ae-1023-lit-life-main-20111021_1_poet-laureate-rita-dove-nikki-giovanni > > > --Jeff Newberry > > -- > Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics > embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and > lived syncopation. ?Yusef Komunyakaa > **** > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Wed Oct 26 12:03:47 2011 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 11:03:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: <17860512.1319644131135.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: I did laugh a bit when Stephen Dobyns was presented by the reviewer as an unknown. Just your average struggling young writer who?s only published about 40 books so far, and those with small presses like Penguin, Holt, and Macmillan. Given that he also is a successful mystery novelist, I?ll bet he?s got more books in print than 90% of the other poets in the anthology. No doubt Rita Dove did not produce an anthology particularly friendly to the ?otherstream,? and if true I?d agree with the stink bombs being thrown at the book so far. But my pet peeve has to do with publishers. Why on earth can?t every publisher in the universe put the damn table of contents on their web pages advertising the books? How hard is that to do? There?s a page for this anthology on the Penguin site, but no TOC or samples. On 10/26/11 10:48 AM, "junction at earthlink.net" wrote: > I'd love to see the table of contents, but I'm guessing that this is an > anthology of mainstream taste, at least as far as the poets cited in the > review. Stephen Dobyns and Mary Oliver as a walk on the wild side? How well > rep-resented are the Beats, Black Mountain, New York School? The Imagists? > I'll lay odds that there isn't a single line of Charles Olson, who remains for > many of us the great voice of the second half of the century. And I'd be real > surprised if Armand Schwerner were included. I know, I'm dreaming. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Jeff Newberry >> Sent: Oct 26, 2011 10:09 AM >> To: NewPoetry >> Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse >> >> Poetic justice >> New anthology aims to be the last word on 20th century verse >> >> October 21, 2011|Julia Keller | CULTURAL CRITIC >> A good anthology is like a dartboard in a crowded bar on a Saturday night. >> Everybody lines up to take their best shot. Everybody wants the chance to >> squint, aim and let fly. >> The more august and monumental and definitive-seeming the anthology ? the >> fancier its packaging, the more famous and revered its editor ? the more it >> invites criticism, arguments, carping and nitpicking. That's the fun of an >> anthology. Indeed, the robustness of such a collection is measured not by a >> solemn, reverential hush descending upon its publication, but by noisy, >> lively, vehement disagreement. >> >> >> http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-10-21/entertainment/ct-ae-1023-lit-li >> fe-main-20111021_1_poet-laureate-rita-dove-nikki-giovanni >> >> --Jeff Newberry -- ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Wed Oct 26 12:07:03 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 12:07:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein In-Reply-To: <12075855.1319643478673.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <12075855.1319643478673.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <343C1D12-EC4F-42AF-8C49-50CC80CC03B7@mikesnider.org> I started learning Spanish in 3rd grade (in a Kentucky public school in 1961!) and when we learned what "tonto" meant it we were pissed off at that show - especially since "kimosabe" means "trusted scout." I suppose it's possible the writers were actually clueless. On Oct 26, 2011, at 11:37 AM, junction at earthlink.net wrote: > My pleasure, kimosabe. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Snider > Sent: Oct 26, 2011 10:20 AM > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein > > Thanks for the link! > > > > On Oct 25, 2011, at 11:55 PM, junction at earthlink.net wrote: > >> Check this out: http://faculty.weber.edu/kmackay/native_american_literature.htm. Lots and lots of writers. Harjo was married to Simon Ortiz, a first-class Acoma poet. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: stephen russell >> Sent: Oct 25, 2011 3:46 PM >> To: NewPoetry List >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein >> >> Many native Americans probably prefer to keep their traditions within their own culture, safe from roadside bandits. I've read plenty of native writers. Joy Harjo is gifted in any number of fields ... we can go on ... Scott (is it) Nomaday ... maybe Momaday ... Loius Eldridge/her late husband, Michael Dorris (or Norris) ... it has been a while since I've read Native American lit, but the talent, no doubt, is around. How much will make it into the mainstream, who knows. Probably very little does ... my guess, less than most >> >> --- On Tue, 10/25/11, junction at earthlink.net wrote: >> >> From: junction at earthlink.net >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein >> To: "NewPoetry List" >> Date: Tuesday, October 25, 2011, 3:37 PM >> >> Education also counts, and Indians (most prefer to be called Indians) are one of the less educated groups. But yes, ignorance. Lots of Native American writers, considering the very small population. >> >> Best, >> >> Mark >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Michael Snider >> Sent: Oct 25, 2011 3:33 PM >> To: NewPoetry List >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein >> >> If true, then why so few Native Americans? Or is it just that so many have names like "Sherman Alexie"? Or am I just ignorant? >> >> www.mikesnider.org >> >> On Oct 25, 2011, at 12:57, junction at earthlink.net wrote: >> >>> True in most Western cultures (I can't speak for the rest), probably because of their marginalization. One could as easily ask why so many Jews. Same answer. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: bob grumman >>> Sent: Oct 25, 2011 11:40 AM >>> To: NewPoetry List >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein >>> >>> Why, to put it crassly, are the queers so prominent in the arts? >>> >>> Our politically correct society makes it is near impossible for any heterosexual male with a functioning mind who wants to remains socially acceptable to answer a question like this. >>> >>> --Bob G. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Wed Oct 26 12:16:14 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 12:16:14 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein Message-ID: <5344553.1319645775554.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Wed Oct 26 12:19:47 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 12:19:47 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse Message-ID: <15313649.1319645987941.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 12:19:55 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 11:19:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: References: <17860512.1319644131135.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Just imagine all those little poets in their penguin suits. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 11:03 AM, David Graham wrote: > I did laugh a bit when Stephen Dobyns was presented by the reviewer as an > unknown. Just your average struggling young writer who?s only published > about 40 books so far, and those with small presses like Penguin, Holt, and > Macmillan. Given that he also is a successful mystery novelist, I?ll bet > he?s got more books in print than 90% of the other poets in the anthology. > > No doubt Rita Dove did not produce an anthology particularly friendly to > the ?otherstream,? and if true I?d agree with the stink bombs being thrown > at the book so far. > > But my pet peeve has to do with publishers. Why on earth can?t every > publisher in the universe put the damn table of contents on their web pages > advertising the books? How hard is that to do? There?s a page for this > anthology on the Penguin site, but no TOC or samples. > > > > > > On 10/26/11 10:48 AM, "junction at earthlink.net" > wrote: > > I'd love to see the table of contents, but I'm guessing that this is an > anthology of mainstream taste, at least as far as the poets cited in the > review. Stephen Dobyns and Mary Oliver as a walk on the wild side? How well > rep-resented are the Beats, Black Mountain, New York School? The Imagists? > I'll lay odds that there isn't a single line of Charles Olson, who remains > for many of us the great voice of the second half of the century. And I'd be > real surprised if Armand Schwerner were included. I know, I'm dreaming. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Newberry > Sent: Oct 26, 2011 10:09 AM > To: NewPoetry > Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse > > *Poetic justice > **New anthology aims to be the last word on 20th century verse > * > October 21, 2011|Julia Keller | CULTURAL CRITIC > A good anthology is like a dartboard in a crowded bar on a Saturday night. > Everybody lines up to take their best shot. Everybody wants the chance to > squint, aim and let fly. > The more august and monumental and definitive-seeming the anthology ? the > fancier its packaging, the more famous and revered its editor ? the more it > invites criticism, arguments, carping and nitpicking. That's the fun of an > anthology. Indeed, the robustness of such a collection is measured not by a > solemn, reverential hush descending upon its publication, but by noisy, > lively, vehement disagreement. > > > > http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-10-21/entertainment/ct-ae-1023-lit-life-main-20111021_1_poet-laureate-rita-dove-nikki-giovanni > > --Jeff Newberry > > > -- > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From millb at aol.com Wed Oct 26 13:10:06 2011 From: millb at aol.com (Millicent Borges Accardi) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:10:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Rodney Jones's Imaginary Logic In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CE62193E6E1C82-2200-1F8CE@webmail-d157.sysops.aol.com> Oh I LOVE these posts!!! What a terrific idea. I may steal it (adding my own spin on the notion, of course). Thanks for the tip. I'll check out his work too (not just the creative FB status postings) Millicent -----Original Message----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry Sent: Wed, Oct 26, 2011 4:43 am Subject: [New-Poetry] Rodney Jones's Imaginary Logic Just published yesterday, Rodney Jones?s new collection Imaginary Logic is one I?ve been looking forward to since last winter, when I heard Jones read some poems from it. By chance I discovered yesterday that Jones?s page on Facebook is set to Public, and he has slighly over a thousand friends. (He is large, he contains multitudes.) I don?t suppose I am violating any privacy issues, then, by reposting here a series of status updates he put up yesterday, which I much enjoyed, as I expect to enjoy the book. My new poetry book, IMAGINARY LOGIC, is out today from Houghton Mifflin Harcourt. Buy it and join thousands who suddenly find their hair more lustrous and their odds improved in games of chance. Only a few hours into publication day, many are reporting that they are buying extra copies of IMAGINARY LOGIC to leave on the steps of abandoned tenements and in the ruts of lanes leading to abandoned farmsteads, for it is said that, ghosts, on first reading the book, discover their formerly incorporeal arms covered with goose bumps and their earthly appetites renewed. To continue the updates on an eventful publication day, I try not to expect too much of a poetry book like IMAGINARY LOGIC, but I have been heartened by reports that in playgrounds all over the country little boys are gathering caches of imaginary weapons and burning or dismantling them. --Rodney Jones, Facebook page 10-25-11 -- ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Oct 26 13:23:30 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:23:30 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: References: <17860512.1319644131135.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: From: Halvard Johnson Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 12:19 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse I won?t say exactly what everyone expects me to. Only why 20th Century rather than Last Half? We have more than enough collections of the first half. And why Rita Dove as editor? Rod McKuen is still alive. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Wed Oct 26 13:30:36 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:30:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: References: <17860512.1319644131135.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1319650236.81815.YahooMailNeo@web120525.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I don't know who this George Kelley guy is, but on his web site, he listed all the poets that are included in the book (because he could not find a TOC either).? There's no mention of the poem choices, though, just the poets (some spelled incorrectly, too).? His web site is http://georgekelley.org. Olsen is there.? Ginsberg is not. Eliot is there.? And so is Auden.? Which seems unfair.? (Unless she only includes Prufrock, which was written before Eliot left.) Anyway.? Without a full TOC, it's a start. JohnJ >________________________________ >From: David Graham >To: NewPoetry >Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 12:03 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse > > >Re: Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse I did laugh a bit when Stephen Dobyns was presented by the reviewer as an unknown. ?Just your average struggling young writer who?s only published about 40 books so far, and those with small presses like Penguin, Holt, and Macmillan. ?Given that he also is a successful mystery novelist, I?ll bet he?s got more books in print than 90% of the other poets in the anthology. > >No doubt Rita Dove did not produce an anthology particularly friendly to the ?otherstream,? and if true I?d agree with the stink bombs being thrown at the book so far. > >But my pet peeve has to do with publishers. ?Why on earth can?t every publisher in the universe put the damn table of contents on their web pages advertising the books? ?How hard is that to do? ?There?s a page for this anthology on the Penguin site, but no TOC or samples. ? > > > > >On 10/26/11 10:48 AM, "junction at earthlink.net" wrote: > > >I'd love to see the table of contents, but I'm guessing that this is an anthology of mainstream taste, at least as far as the poets cited in the review. Stephen Dobyns and Mary Oliver as a walk on the wild side? How well rep-resented are the Beats, Black Mountain, New York School? The Imagists? I'll lay odds that there isn't a single line of Charles Olson, who remains for many of us the great voice of the second half of the century. And I'd be real surprised if Armand Schwerner were included. I know, I'm dreaming. >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Jeff Newberry >>>Sent: Oct 26, 2011 10:09 AM >>>To: NewPoetry >>>Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse >>> >>>Poetic justice >>>New anthology aims to be the last word on 20th century verse >>> >>>October 21, 2011|Julia Keller | CULTURAL CRITIC >>>A good anthology is like a dartboard in a crowded bar on a Saturday night. Everybody lines up to take their best shot. Everybody wants the chance to squint, aim and let fly. >>>The more august and monumental and definitive-seeming the anthology ? the fancier its packaging, the more famous and revered its editor ? the more it invites criticism, arguments, carping and nitpicking. That's the fun of an anthology. Indeed, the robustness of such a collection is measured not by a solemn, reverential hush descending upon its publication, but by noisy, lively, vehement disagreement. >>> >>> >>>http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-10-21/entertainment/ct-ae-1023-lit-life-main-20111021_1_poet-laureate-rita-dove-nikki-giovanni >>> >>>--Jeff Newberry >>> >-- > >======================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu > >Home Page: >http://web.me.com/drjazz > >Poetry Library: >http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >========================================== > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 13:37:55 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 12:37:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: References: <17860512.1319644131135.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Come as close as you can, amigo. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 12:23 PM, bob grumman wrote: > > > *From:* Halvard Johnson > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 26, 2011 12:19 PM > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse > > I won?t say *exactly* what everyone expects me to. Only why 20th Century > rather than Last Half? We have more than enough collections of the first > half. And why Rita Dove as editor? Rod McKuen is still alive. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 13:38:58 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 12:38:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: <1319650236.81815.YahooMailNeo@web120525.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <17860512.1319644131135.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1319650236.81815.YahooMailNeo@web120525.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Not a start; pretty much the closer. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 12:30 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: > I don't know who this George Kelley guy is, but on his web site, he listed > all the poets that are included in the book (because he could not find a TOC > either). There's no mention of the poem choices, though, just the poets > (some spelled incorrectly, too). His web site is http://georgekelley.org. > > Olsen is there. Ginsberg is not. > > Eliot is there. And so is Auden. Which seems unfair. (Unless she only > includes Prufrock, which was written before Eliot left.) > > Anyway. Without a full TOC, it's a start. > > JohnJ > > ------------------------------ > *From:* David Graham > *To:* NewPoetry > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 26, 2011 12:03 PM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse > > I did laugh a bit when Stephen Dobyns was presented by the reviewer as an > unknown. Just your average struggling young writer who?s only published > about 40 books so far, and those with small presses like Penguin, Holt, and > Macmillan. Given that he also is a successful mystery novelist, I?ll bet > he?s got more books in print than 90% of the other poets in the anthology. > > No doubt Rita Dove did not produce an anthology particularly friendly to > the ?otherstream,? and if true I?d agree with the stink bombs being thrown > at the book so far. > > But my pet peeve has to do with publishers. Why on earth can?t every > publisher in the universe put the damn table of contents on their web pages > advertising the books? How hard is that to do? There?s a page for this > anthology on the Penguin site, but no TOC or samples. > > > > > On 10/26/11 10:48 AM, "junction at earthlink.net" > wrote: > > I'd love to see the table of contents, but I'm guessing that this is an > anthology of mainstream taste, at least as far as the poets cited in the > review. Stephen Dobyns and Mary Oliver as a walk on the wild side? How well > rep-resented are the Beats, Black Mountain, New York School? The Imagists? > I'll lay odds that there isn't a single line of Charles Olson, who remains > for many of us the great voice of the second half of the century. And I'd be > real surprised if Armand Schwerner were included. I know, I'm dreaming. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Newberry > Sent: Oct 26, 2011 10:09 AM > To: NewPoetry > Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse > > *Poetic justice > **New anthology aims to be the last word on 20th century verse > * > October 21, 2011|Julia Keller | CULTURAL CRITIC > A good anthology is like a dartboard in a crowded bar on a Saturday night. > Everybody lines up to take their best shot. Everybody wants the chance to > squint, aim and let fly. > The more august and monumental and definitive-seeming the anthology ? the > fancier its packaging, the more famous and revered its editor ? the more it > invites criticism, arguments, carping and nitpicking. That's the fun of an > anthology. Indeed, the robustness of such a collection is measured not by a > solemn, reverential hush descending upon its publication, but by noisy, > lively, vehement disagreement. > > > > http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-10-21/entertainment/ct-ae-1023-lit-life-main-20111021_1_poet-laureate-rita-dove-nikki-giovanni > > --Jeff Newberry > > > -- > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Wed Oct 26 13:48:51 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:48:51 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse Message-ID: <33430711.1319651332399.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 13:57:24 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 12:57:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?L=E2=80=99Homme_et_son_desir?= Message-ID: L?Homme et son desir Others got heart, I got the boot. Negative culpability eluded me. What I wanted was what every man (and woman) wanted: to evade capture as long as possible, shoes to wear when running on rough terrain, that ability (so often seen on TV) to talk through a frozen smile, to live free of in- timidation, of charge, of want. Yes, want. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Wed Oct 26 14:13:49 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:13:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?L=E2=80=99Homme_et_son_desir?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EA84DDD.3020606@louisiana.edu> A knockout poem, Hal. Jerry On 10/26/2011 12:57 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > L?Homme et son desir > > Others got heart, I got the boot. Negative > culpability eluded me. What I wanted was > what every man (and woman) wanted: > to evade capture as long as possible, shoes > to wear when running on rough terrain, > that ability (so often seen on TV) to talk > through a frozen smile, to live free of in- > timidation, of charge, of want. Yes, want. > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > /, > Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,//Remains > To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , > /Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > /, > /Mainly Black > , > /Obras P?blicas > ; > //The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; > //Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; > //Tango Bouquet > ; > //Theory of Harmony > ; > //Rapsodie espagnole > ; > //Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; > //The Sonnet Project > ; > //G(e)nome ; > //Winter Journey ; > ////Eclipse ; ////The > Dance of the Red Swan ;/ > /Transparencies & Projections > / > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- ________________________________________________________ Jerry McGuire English Department Box 44691 University of Louisiana at Lafayette Lafayette LA 70504-4691 337-482-5478 Creative Writing Website: http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html ______________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 14:14:45 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:14:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?L=E2=80=99Homme_et_son_desir?= In-Reply-To: <4EA84DDD.3020606@louisiana.edu> References: <4EA84DDD.3020606@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: Well, thank you, Jerry. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 1:13 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: > ** > A knockout poem, Hal. > > Jerry > > On 10/26/2011 12:57 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > > L?Homme et son desir > > Others got heart, I got the boot. Negative > culpability eluded me. What I wanted was > what every man (and woman) wanted: > to evade capture as long as possible, shoes > to wear when running on rough terrain, > that ability (so often seen on TV) to talk > through a frozen smile, to live free of in- > timidation, of charge, of want. Yes, want. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- > ________________________________________________________ > > Jerry McGuire > English Department Box 44691 > University of Louisiana at Lafayette > Lafayette LA 70504-4691 > 337-482-5478 > Creative Writing Website:http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html > ______________________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Wed Oct 26 14:26:28 2011 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:26:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: <1319650236.81815.YahooMailNeo@web120525.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <17860512.1319644131135.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1319650236.81815.YahooMailNeo@web120525.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: No Ginsberg? Seriously? I really thought the Establishment had gotten over that little blind spot, oh, 25 years ago, by the time AG was appearing at MLA conventions & so on. Leaving the author of HOWL out of any survey of 20th Century poetry is like omitting Cezanne from Art Survey 101. =================== David Graham Grahamd at ripon.edu Home page: http://web.me.com/drjazz ==================== On Oct 26, 2011, at 12:34 PM, "John Jeffrey" wrote: > I don't know who this George Kelley guy is, but on his web site, he listed all the poets that are included in the book (because he could not find a TOC either). There's no mention of the poem choices, though, just the poets (some spelled incorrectly, too). His web site is http://georgekelley.org. > > Olsen is there. Ginsberg is not. > > Eliot is there. And so is Auden. Which seems unfair. (Unless she only includes Prufrock, which was written before Eliot left.) > > Anyway. Without a full TOC, it's a start. > > JohnJ > > From: David Graham > To: NewPoetry > Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 12:03 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse > > I did laugh a bit when Stephen Dobyns was presented by the reviewer as an unknown. Just your average struggling young writer who?s only published about 40 books so far, and those with small presses like Penguin, Holt, and Macmillan. Given that he also is a successful mystery novelist, I?ll bet he?s got more books in print than 90% of the other poets in the anthology. > > No doubt Rita Dove did not produce an anthology particularly friendly to the ?otherstream,? and if true I?d agree with the stink bombs being thrown at the book so far. > > But my pet peeve has to do with publishers. Why on earth can?t every publisher in the universe put the damn table of contents on their web pages advertising the books? How hard is that to do? There?s a page for this anthology on the Penguin site, but no TOC or samples. > > > > > On 10/26/11 10:48 AM, "junction at earthlink.net" wrote: > > I'd love to see the table of contents, but I'm guessing that this is an anthology of mainstream taste, at least as far as the poets cited in the review. Stephen Dobyns and Mary Oliver as a walk on the wild side? How well rep-resented are the Beats, Black Mountain, New York School? The Imagists? I'll lay odds that there isn't a single line of Charles Olson, who remains for many of us the great voice of the second half of the century. And I'd be real surprised if Armand Schwerner were included. I know, I'm dreaming. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Newberry > Sent: Oct 26, 2011 10:09 AM > To: NewPoetry > Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse > > Poetic justice > New anthology aims to be the last word on 20th century verse > > October 21, 2011|Julia Keller | CULTURAL CRITIC > A good anthology is like a dartboard in a crowded bar on a Saturday night. Everybody lines up to take their best shot. Everybody wants the chance to squint, aim and let fly. > The more august and monumental and definitive-seeming the anthology ? the fancier its packaging, the more famous and revered its editor ? the more it invites criticism, arguments, carping and nitpicking. That's the fun of an anthology. Indeed, the robustness of such a collection is measured not by a solemn, reverential hush descending upon its publication, but by noisy, lively, vehement disagreement. > > > http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-10-21/entertainment/ct-ae-1023-lit-life-main-20111021_1_poet-laureate-rita-dove-nikki-giovanni > > --Jeff Newberry > > -- > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Oct 26 14:45:08 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 14:45:08 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: References: <17860512.1319644131135.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net><1319650236.8 1815.YahooMailNeo@web120525.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Re: Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse From: Graham, David Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 2:26 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse No Ginsberg? Seriously? I really thought the Establishment had gotten over that little blind spot, oh, 25 years ago, by the time AG was appearing at MLA conventions & so on. Leaving the author of HOWL out of any survey of 20th Century poetry is like omitting Cezanne from Art Survey 101. Cezanne was major, Ginsberg not even first level minor?but he should be in such a book, especially a mainstream book as this one seems to be. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Wed Oct 26 14:59:30 2011 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 13:59:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: Message-ID: We disagree (I?ll get over it) about how good Ginsberg was, but I sure do agree that by his influence alone, he should be in any such survey. The list of 20th C poets who leave me cold is long & possibly embarrassing, including as it does certified superstars such as Pound, Olson, and James Merrill. But I?d include all of them in such a book long before I?d get to the likes of William Meredith or Miller Williams. . . . Just noticed that Kenneth Rexroth was left out also. On 10/26/11 1:45 PM, "Bob Grumman" wrote: > > > From: Graham, David > Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 2:26 PM > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse > > No Ginsberg? Seriously? I really thought the Establishment had gotten over > that little blind spot, oh, 25 years ago, by the time AG was appearing at MLA > conventions & so on. Leaving the author of HOWL out of any survey of 20th > Century poetry is like omitting Cezanne from Art Survey 101. > Cezanne was major, Ginsberg not even first level minor?but he should be in > such a book, especially a mainstream book as this one seems to be. > > --Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Oct 26 15:52:22 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 15:52:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Re: Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse From: David Graham Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 2:59 PM To: NewPoetry Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse We disagree (I?ll get over it) about how good Ginsberg was, but I sure do agree that by his influence alone, he should be in any such survey. The list of 20th C poets who leave me cold is long & possibly embarrassing, including as it does certified superstars such as Pound, Olson, and James Merrill. But I?d include all of them in such a book long before I?d get to the likes of William Meredith or Miller Williams. . . . Just noticed that Kenneth Rexroth was left out also. With you on Rexroth also. I?ve read Meredith but remember nothing about him. Miller Williams sounds familiar but I can?t believe he?s much if I haven?t heard of him. I expect to have heard of every poet in the book?although a really good anthology would have a bunch I had not heard of. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Wed Oct 26 15:30:32 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 12:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319657432.19736.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I haven't crunched the numbers, Bob. Considering the small native population, and the number of memorable writers that they've produced, their accomplishment is considerable. Add, of course, the white man's?curse ... alcoholism, resettlement ... name it (long list and I'm not an expert) ... the accomplishment leaves me in awe. ? The above said, of course, is common knowledge, and my ignorance remains vast and unexplored. --- On Tue, 10/25/11, bob grumman wrote: From: bob grumman Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Tuesday, October 25, 2011, 3:51 PM ? ? From: Michael Snider Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2011 3:33 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein ? If true, then why so few Native Americans?? Or is it just that so many have names like "Sherman Alexie"? Or am I just ignorant? I think you?re asking a different question, Mike. ? --Bob -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 16:52:52 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 15:52:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ah, a lot of thoses not good enough for you to have heard of. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 2:52 PM, bob grumman wrote: With you on Rexroth also. I?ve read Meredith but remember nothing about > him. Miller Williams sounds familiar but I can?t believe he?s much if I > haven?t heard of him. I expect to have heard of every poet in the > book?although a really good anthology would have a bunch I had not heard of. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Wed Oct 26 16:55:29 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 26 Oct 2011 15:55:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Gertrude Stein In-Reply-To: <1319657432.19736.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1319657432.19736.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Just the way it's meant to be. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 2:30 PM, stephen russell < poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: my ignorance remains vast and unexplored -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 09:47:23 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 15:47:23 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] from Daisy Fried Message-ID: Hi Pals: I'm teaching an on-line poetry workshop in February through the Fine Arts Work Center. If you know anyone who'd be interested, a description is here: http://www.fawc.org/24pearlstreet/poetry.php#Daisy Thanks a million! Daisy *Fine Arts Work Center in Provincetown Online Writing Program * www.fawc.org Writing Poems that Don't Fit: A Poetry Workshop -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From almaginnes at aol.com Thu Oct 27 11:51:39 2011 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 11:51:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CE62D772F9AB4C-1E54-7BCC9@webmail-d018.sysops.aol.com> Miller Williams sounds familiar but I can?t believe he?s much if I haven?t heard of him. Miller Williams is a better poet than whoever wrote that. So there. -----Original Message----- From: bob grumman To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thu, Oct 27, 2011 11:48 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse From: David Graham Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 2:59 PM To: NewPoetry Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse We disagree (I?ll get over it) about how good Ginsberg was, but I sure do agree that by his influence alone, he should be in any such survey. The list of 20th C poets who leave me cold is long & possibly embarrassing, including as it does certified superstars such as Pound, Olson, and James Merrill. But I?d include all of them in such a book long before I?d get to the likes of William Meredith or Miller Williams. . . . Just noticed that Kenneth Rexroth was left out also. With you on Rexroth also. I?ve read Meredith but remember nothing about him. Miller Williams sounds familiar but I can?t believe he?s much if I haven?t heard of him. I expect to have heard of every poet in the book?although a really good anthology would have a bunch I had not heard of. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.weinstock at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 12:02:03 2011 From: david.weinstock at gmail.com (David Weinstock) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 12:02:03 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 3:52 PM, Mycroft wrote: > > Miller Williams sounds familiar but I can?t believe he?s much if I haven?t heard of him. You know, Mycroft, I think I should learn your techniques, it would save a lot of time. You don't have to read a book to know what you think of it. And if you haven't even heard of a poet, then he's worth even less than someone you've heard of but not read. And Ginsberg is no good, but you wouldn't want him left out of an anthology of the mainstream. Mycroft, I have never seen a person so proud of his ignorance. -- DAVID WEINSTOCK Email: david.weinstock at gmail.com Mail: 240 Woodland Park, Middlebury VT 05753 USA Blog: www.waitingforhungry.blogspot.com Phone: 802-388-6939 Cell: 802-989-4314 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 12:05:50 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 11:05:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Who's this Mycroft? I've never heard of him. Can't be much. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 11:02 AM, David Weinstock wrote: > On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 3:52 PM, Mycroft wrote: > > > > Miller Williams sounds familiar but I can?t believe he?s much if I > haven?t heard of him. > > You know, Mycroft, I think I should learn your techniques, it would save a > lot of time. You don't have to read a book to know what you think of it. And > if you haven't even heard of a poet, then he's worth even less than someone > you've heard of but not read. And Ginsberg is no good, but you wouldn't want > him left out of an anthology of the mainstream. > > Mycroft, I have never seen a person so proud of his ignorance. > > > > > > > > -- > DAVID WEINSTOCK > Email: david.weinstock at gmail.com > Mail: 240 Woodland Park, Middlebury VT 05753 USA > Blog: www.waitingforhungry.blogspot.com > Phone: 802-388-6939 > Cell: 802-989-4314 > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 13:40:21 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 19:40:21 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: <1319650236.81815.YahooMailNeo@web120525.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <17860512.1319644131135.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1319650236.81815.YahooMailNeo@web120525.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Plenty that I know, I feel a little better. On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 7:30 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: > I don't know who this George Kelley guy is, but on his web site, he listed > all the poets that are included in the book (because he could not find a TOC > either). There's no mention of the poem choices, though, just the poets > (some spelled incorrectly, too). His web site is http://georgekelley.org. > > Olsen is there. Ginsberg is not. > > Eliot is there. And so is Auden. Which seems unfair. (Unless she only > includes Prufrock, which was written before Eliot left.) > > Anyway. Without a full TOC, it's a start. > > JohnJ > > ------------------------------ > *From:* David Graham > *To:* NewPoetry > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 26, 2011 12:03 PM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse > > I did laugh a bit when Stephen Dobyns was presented by the reviewer as an > unknown. Just your average struggling young writer who?s only published > about 40 books so far, and those with small presses like Penguin, Holt, and > Macmillan. Given that he also is a successful mystery novelist, I?ll bet > he?s got more books in print than 90% of the other poets in the anthology. > > No doubt Rita Dove did not produce an anthology particularly friendly to > the ?otherstream,? and if true I?d agree with the stink bombs being thrown > at the book so far. > > But my pet peeve has to do with publishers. Why on earth can?t every > publisher in the universe put the damn table of contents on their web pages > advertising the books? How hard is that to do? There?s a page for this > anthology on the Penguin site, but no TOC or samples. > > > > > On 10/26/11 10:48 AM, "junction at earthlink.net" > wrote: > > I'd love to see the table of contents, but I'm guessing that this is an > anthology of mainstream taste, at least as far as the poets cited in the > review. Stephen Dobyns and Mary Oliver as a walk on the wild side? How well > rep-resented are the Beats, Black Mountain, New York School? The Imagists? > I'll lay odds that there isn't a single line of Charles Olson, who remains > for many of us the great voice of the second half of the century. And I'd be > real surprised if Armand Schwerner were included. I know, I'm dreaming. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Newberry > Sent: Oct 26, 2011 10:09 AM > To: NewPoetry > Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse > > *Poetic justice > **New anthology aims to be the last word on 20th century verse > * > October 21, 2011|Julia Keller | CULTURAL CRITIC > A good anthology is like a dartboard in a crowded bar on a Saturday night. > Everybody lines up to take their best shot. Everybody wants the chance to > squint, aim and let fly. > The more august and monumental and definitive-seeming the anthology ? the > fancier its packaging, the more famous and revered its editor ? the more it > invites criticism, arguments, carping and nitpicking. That's the fun of an > anthology. Indeed, the robustness of such a collection is measured not by a > solemn, reverential hush descending upon its publication, but by noisy, > lively, vehement disagreement. > > > > http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2011-10-21/entertainment/ct-ae-1023-lit-life-main-20111021_1_poet-laureate-rita-dove-nikki-giovanni > > --Jeff Newberry > > > -- > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Thu Oct 27 14:00:43 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 13:00:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: <8CE62D772F9AB4C-1E54-7BCC9@webmail-d018.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE62D772F9AB4C-1E54-7BCC9@webmail-d018.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4EA99C4B.7040901@louisiana.edu> Miller Williams (he's Lucinda's father, a fact that must sometimes feel like a weight to carry) is just the sort of poet poets love to gang up on--he's an old-fashioned, more or less witty, ironizing formalist whose poems don't exhibit a lot of dynamic variety. He writes about topics that drive people who think poetry should either be about nothing or about earth-shaking issues nuts. I've never been in love with his work--I feel there have been people for over a century who've done the same thing better than he does--but can't see a reason on earth not to give him credit for working hard at his own vision of craft and coming to some achievement in it. He certainly belongs in an anthology so loaded down with living antiquities and bland poetry apparatchiks as the one we've been maligning for a few days. But you have to understand, if you have a couch with a broken leg, this will be the perfect book to prop it up with. There's a use for everything, if you put your mind to it.) Here are two of his poems I found online: If Ever There Was One She could tell he loved her. He wanted her there sitting in the front pew when he preached. He liked to watch her putting up her hair and ate whatever she cooked and never broached the subject of the years before they met. He was thoughtful always. He let her say whether or not they did anything in bed and tried to learn the games she tried to play. She could tell how deep his feeling ran. He liked to say her name and bought her stuff for no good reason. He was a gentle man. How few there are she knew well enough. He sometimes reached to flick away a speck of something on her clothes and didn?t drum his fingers on the table when she spoke. What would he do if he knew she had a dream sometimes, slipping out of her nightgown? if ever God forbid he really knew her? to slip once out of the house and across town and find someone to talk dirty to her. BIRTH OF THE BLUES John Keats never read Dylan Thomas or Yeats. Dante didn?t know Shakespeare. Neither did Jesus. I think of those I will never know, from countries whose languages sound to me like mathematics, that prince, for instance, who wrote in Siamese in the seventeenth century, who could well have been the best of all of us for all I know. I think about that poet born today in Montreal whose verses will go with vessels blown by the lights of stars to the curling edge. I know he is there. Listen. This is the time. Or she is. Lord. Lord. I feel like Herod. On 10/27/2011 10:51 AM, almaginnes at aol.com wrote: > Miller Williams sounds familiar but I can?t believe he?s much if I > haven?t heard of him. > > > Miller Williams is a better poet than whoever wrote that. So there. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: bob grumman > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Thu, Oct 27, 2011 11:48 am > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse > > *From:* David Graham > *Sent:* Wednesday, October 26, 2011 2:59 PM > *To:* NewPoetry > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse > We disagree (I?ll get over it) about how good Ginsberg was, but I sure > do agree that by his influence alone, he should be in any such survey. > > The list of 20th C poets who leave me cold is long & possibly > embarrassing, including as it does certified superstars such as Pound, > Olson, and James Merrill. But I?d include all of them in such a book > long before I?d get to the likes of William Meredith or Miller > Williams. . . . > > Just noticed that Kenneth Rexroth was left out also. > > > With you on Rexroth also. I?ve read Meredith but remember nothing > about him. Miller Williams sounds familiar but I can?t believe he?s > much if I haven?t heard of him. I expect to have heard of every poet > in the book?although a really good anthology would have a bunch I had > not heard of. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- ________________________________________________________ Jerry McGuire English Department Box 44691 University of Louisiana at Lafayette Lafayette LA 70504-4691 337-482-5478 Creative Writing Website: http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html ______________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tomkostro at sprintmail.com Thu Oct 27 14:37:46 2011 From: tomkostro at sprintmail.com (Tom Kostro) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 14:37:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] from patricia brodyRe: NOT ANTHOLOGIZED In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8B1C336B-1644-401B-8C8E-E3597BFB609A@sprintmail.com> But so terrific. Not New York either but well loved here....PHIL MILLER TRIBUTE AND BOOK LAUNCH ``````` October 29, 6 PM Cornelia Street Cafe 29 Cornelia Street, NYC Please bring your memories and poems to celebrate our beloved poet and friend, Philip Miller, the gravel- voiced poet, teacher, critic, publisher of The Same and author of the new collection, The Ghost of Every Day-- whose passing last February 14th left such a big hole in our hearts. Participants may choose to read one of his/her own poems inspired, published or appreciated by Phil, along with one of Phil's poems. We promise Phil's spirit will be lively and lyric, in keeping with the "ghosts of Halloweens past" when Phil and Gloria Vando hosted readings for the Chance of a Ghost anthology. Come celebrate the spirit of the man and his new book. All proceeds from its sale will go to the Philip W. Miller Scholarship Fund. Contact: Patricia Brody patriciannb13 at gmail.com Nancy Eldredge nancyeldredge at yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu Thu Oct 27 15:24:18 2011 From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 14:24:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] from patricia brodyRe: NOT ANTHOLOGIZED In-Reply-To: <8B1C336B-1644-401B-8C8E-E3597BFB609A@sprintmail.com> References: <8B1C336B-1644-401B-8C8E-E3597BFB609A@sprintmail.com> Message-ID: <04e301cc94de$05ede8b0$11c9ba10$@ilstu.edu> Thanks, Patricia. To say the obvious, you make me wish I had known him. Bill From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Tom Kostro Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 1:38 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] from patricia brodyRe: NOT ANTHOLOGIZED But so terrific. Not New York either but well loved here....PHIL MILLER TRIBUTE AND BOOK LAUNCH ``````` October 29, 6 PM Cornelia Street Cafe 29 Cornelia Street, NYC Please bring your memories and poems to celebrate our beloved poet and friend, Philip Miller, the gravel- voiced poet, teacher, critic, publisher of The Same and author of the new collection, The Ghost of Every Day-- whose passing last February 14th left such a big hole in our hearts. Participants may choose to read one of his/her own poems inspired, published or appreciated by Phil, along with one of Phil's poems. We promise Phil's spirit will be lively and lyric, in keeping with the "ghosts of Halloweens past" when Phil and Gloria Vando hosted readings for the Chance of a Ghost anthology. Come celebrate the spirit of the man and his new book. All proceeds from its sale will go to the Philip W. Miller Scholarship Fund. Contact: Patricia Brody patriciannb13 at gmail.com Nancy Eldredge nancyeldredge at yahoo.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Oct 27 16:37:46 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 16:37:46 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: <8CE62D772F9AB4C-1E54-7BCC9@webmail-d018.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE62D772F9AB4C-1E54-7BCC9@webmail-d018.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <29F9982F237D4D96B082810F3B06D1ED@BobHP> From: almaginnes at aol.com Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 11:51 AM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse Miller Williams sounds familiar but I can?t believe he?s much if I haven?t heard of him. Miller Williams is a better poet than whoever wrote that. So there. Well, I didn?t write that, Al, although I believe those words of mine were in a passage I did write. Now that I?ve read the two poems of his Jerry posted, I?m afraid I can?t change my mind. I agree with Jerry that he probably deserves to be in the anthology as much as most of the others in it?one of a huge number who does. I still haven?t seen the list of poets in it, but strongly suspect I could name at least thirty 20th Century American poets who are not in it who are better than Miller, including me. I would be most interested in seeing a case made showing that to be untrue. --Bob -----Original Message----- From: bob grumman To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thu, Oct 27, 2011 11:48 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse From: David Graham Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 2:59 PM To: NewPoetry Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse We disagree (I?ll get over it) about how good Ginsberg was, but I sure do agree that by his influence alone, he should be in any such survey. The list of 20th C poets who leave me cold is long & possibly embarrassing, including as it does certified superstars such as Pound, Olson, and James Merrill. But I?d include all of them in such a book long before I?d get to the likes of William Meredith or Miller Williams. . . . Just noticed that Kenneth Rexroth was left out also. With you on Rexroth also. I?ve read Meredith but remember nothing about him. Miller Williams sounds familiar but I can?t believe he?s much if I haven?t heard of him. I expect to have heard of every poet in the book?although a really good anthology would have a bunch I had not heard of. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Oct 27 16:57:15 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 16:57:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5409F72D57CB4CED8ED7C77672E3FF19@BobHP> From: David Weinstock Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 12:02 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 3:52 PM, Mycroft wrote: > > Miller Williams sounds familiar but I can?t believe he?s much if I haven?t heard of him. You know, Mycroft, I think I should learn your techniques, it would save a lot of time. You don't have to read a book to know what you think of it. Send me a check for thirteen dollars (Bob Grumman, 1708 Hayworth Road, Port Charlotte FL 33952), and I?ll send you a copy of my Of Manywhere-at-Once. You haven?t read it, so don?t tell me you don?t think you?d like it. You can?t know that without reading it. And if you haven't even heard of a poet, then he's worth even less than someone you've heard of but not read. And Ginsberg is no good, but you wouldn't want him left out of an anthology of the mainstream. Mycroft, I have never seen a person so proud of his ignorance. The key is inference, David. As I explained. Another good thing to try to learn is reading with some degree of understanding. --Bob -- DAVID WEINSTOCK Email: david.weinstock at gmail.com Mail: 240 Woodland Park, Middlebury VT 05753 USA Blog: www.waitingforhungry.blogspot.com Phone: 802-388-6939 Cell: 802-989-4314 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Oct 27 17:00:56 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 17:00:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Halvard Johnson Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 12:05 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse Who's this Mycroft? I've never heard of him. Can't be much. You?re kidding me, right? You have heard of him, you just don?t remember having heard of him, although his younger brother is much more famous. And also capable of knowing a lot about a lot of books without having read them. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Oct 27 17:26:19 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 17:26:19 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2028F2E9570A4FC0BF891E64095C5644@BobHP> By the way, I found a way of checking for names of poets in the list provided, which I?ve no visited?at least on my computer. Hit ?Page,? then ?Edit with Notepad.? Then hit ?Edit,? and ?Find.? This may be something you all know but I only found out about it just now. I wanted to see if the anthology included Robert Lax, perhaps the major American Poet least regarded by the poetry establishment?mainly because he represents a particular school of minimalist poetry that I?m pretty sure was ignored by Dove?even though, gosh, I haven?t yet read it. (Hecik, what can a list of included poets tell you about an anthology until you?ve read it?) I made an impolite comment about the anthology: ?Close to worthless. The good poets in it are already amply anthologized. Whole schools of the best American poets of the last forty years of American Poetry are entirely ignored. The one with Robert Lax in it for just one example. The editors of POETRY will find little in it, or not in it, to complain about?which is proof of how bad it is.? I wonder if the moderator will let it be posted. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From almaginnes at aol.com Thu Oct 27 17:26:30 2011 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 17:26:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CE630639A133B9-1E54-819F1@webmail-d018.sysops.aol.com> Sounds like Grumman... -----Original Message----- From: bob grumman To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thu, Oct 27, 2011 5:17 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse From: Halvard Johnson Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 12:05 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse Who's this Mycroft? I've never heard of him. Can't be much. You?re kidding me, right? You have heard of him, you just don?t remember having heard of him, although his younger brother is much more famous. And also capable of knowing a lot about a lot of books without having read them. --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From almaginnes at aol.com Thu Oct 27 17:37:06 2011 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 17:37:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: <29F9982F237D4D96B082810F3B06D1ED@BobHP> References: <8CE62D772F9AB4C-1E54-7BCC9@webmail-d018.sysops.aol.com> <29F9982F237D4D96B082810F3B06D1ED@BobHP> Message-ID: <8CE6307B4F9D2F6-1E54-81BD0@webmail-d018.sysops.aol.com> Two poems does not a career or a poet make. I studied with Miller and have met few people who know poetry like he does. His work is not always my cup of tea, but he's damn good at what he does. -----Original Message----- From: bob grumman To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thu, Oct 27, 2011 5:33 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse From: almaginnes at aol.com Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 11:51 AM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse Miller Williams sounds familiar but I can?t believe he?s much if I haven?t heard of him. Miller Williams is a better poet than whoever wrote that. So there. Well, I didn?t write that, Al, although I believe those words of mine were in a passage I did write. Now that I?ve read the two poems of his Jerry posted, I?m afraid I can?t change my mind. I agree with Jerry that he probably deserves to be in the anthology as much as most of the others in it?one of a huge number who does. I still haven?t seen the list of poets in it, but strongly suspect I could name at least thirty 20th Century American poets who are not in it who are better than Miller, including me. I would be most interested in seeing a case made showing that to be untrue. --Bob -----Original Message----- From: bob grumman To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thu, Oct 27, 2011 11:48 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse From: David Graham Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 2:59 PM To: NewPoetry Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse We disagree (I?ll get over it) about how good Ginsberg was, but I sure do agree that by his influence alone, he should be in any such survey. The list of 20th C poets who leave me cold is long & possibly embarrassing, including as it does certified superstars such as Pound, Olson, and James Merrill. But I?d include all of them in such a book long before I?d get to the likes of William Meredith or Miller Williams. . . . Just noticed that Kenneth Rexroth was left out also. With you on Rexroth also. I?ve read Meredith but remember nothing about him. Miller Williams sounds familiar but I can?t believe he?s much if I haven?t heard of him. I expect to have heard of every poet in the book?although a really good anthology would have a bunch I had not heard of. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.weinstock at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 17:44:45 2011 From: david.weinstock at gmail.com (David Weinstock) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 17:44:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: <2028F2E9570A4FC0BF891E64095C5644@BobHP> References: <2028F2E9570A4FC0BF891E64095C5644@BobHP> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 5:26 PM, Mycroft wrote: > > . The editors of POETRY will find little in it, or not in it, to complain about?which is proof of how bad it is.? Mark this day, my friends. Mycroft has just this moment attained a new and unprecented level of vaunting ignorance. Not only does he review books he has not read, he has now reviewed a not-yet-written, yet-unpublished *review * of a book he has not read. Can he top that? More to the point, can he bottom it? Stay tuned. . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Thu Oct 27 18:59:16 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 15:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] The poets in Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: <2028F2E9570A4FC0BF891E64095C5644@BobHP> References: <2028F2E9570A4FC0BF891E64095C5644@BobHP> Message-ID: <1319756356.67510.YahooMailNeo@web120526.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Here's an alphabetized list of the 175 poets from the book as listed on the website referenced in a previous email.? (I didn't correct the typos, so if..I mean, so when you find misspellings, blame the website author.) ----- Ai Elizabeth Alexander Sherman Alexie Donald All Paula Gunn Allen A.R. Ammons John Ashbery W. H. Auden Amiri Baraka (LeRoi Jones) Ted Berrigan John Berryman Frank Bidart Elizabeth Bishop Robert Bly Louise Bogan Gwendolyn Brooks Olga Broumas Hayden Carruth Lorna Dee Cervantes Marilyn Chin Sandra Cisneros Lucille Clifton Judith Ortiz Cofer Billy Collins Gregory Corso Hart Crane Robert Creeley Victor Hernandez Cruz Countee Cullen E. E. Cummings Carl Dennis Toi Derricotte James Dickey Stephen Dobyns Hilda Doolittle (H.D.) Mark Doty Rita Dove Norman Dubie Alan Dugan Paul Lawrence Dunbar Alice Moore Dunbar-Nelson Robert Duncan Stephen Dunn Cornelius Eady Russell Edson T. S. Eliot Louis Erdrich B.H. Fairchild Lawrence Ferlinghetti Annie Finch Nick Flynn Carolyn Forche Robert Francis Robert Frost Alice Fulton Tess Gallagher Albert Goldbarth Jorie Graham Angelina Weld Grimke Barbara Hamby Joy Harjo Michael S. Harper Robert Hass Robert Hayden Terrance Hayes Anthony Hecht Lyn Hejinian Garrett Hongo Marie Howe Andrew Hudgins Langston Hughes Richard Hugo Mark Jarman Randall Jarrell Robinson Jeffers James Weldon Johnson June Jordan Weldon Kees Brigit Pegeen Kelly Galway Kinnell Carolyn Kizer Joanna Klink Etheridge Knight Kenneth Koch Yusef Komunyakaa Maxine Kumin Stanley Kunitz Li-Young Lee Denise Levertove Philip Levine Larry Levis Audre Lorde Adrian C. Louis Amy Lowell Robert Lowell Thomas Lux Nathaniel Mackey Archibald MacLeish Haki R. Madhubuti (Don L. Lee) David Mason Edgar Lee Masters William Matthews Heather McHugh Claude McKay William Meredith James Merrill W. S. Merwin Jane Miller Marianne Moore Paul Muldoon Harryette Mullen Carol Muske-Dukes Marilyn Nelson Howard Nemerov Naomi Shihab Nye Frank O?Hara Sharon Olds Mary Oliver Charles Olson Gregory Orr Michael Palmer Carl Phillips Robert Pinsky Ezra Pound Dudley Randell Adrienne Rich Alberto Rios Edwin Arlington Robinson Theodore Roethke Muriel Rukeyser Kay Ryan Sonia Sanchez Carl Sandburg Delmore Schwartz Frederick Seidel Anne Sexton Brenda Shaughnessy Laurie Sheck Leslie Marmon Silko Charles Simic Louis Simpson Gary Snyder Cathy Song Gary Soto David St. John William Stafford A.E. Stallings Gertrude Stein Gerald Stern Wallace Stevens Susan Stewart Ron Stilliman Ruth Stone Mark Strand James Tate Henry Taylor Sara Teasdale Melvin B. Tolson Jean Toomer Natasha Trethewey Reetika Vazirani Diane Wakoski Derek Walcott Margaret Walker James Welch Roberta HIll Whiteman Richard Wilbur C. K. Williams Miller Williams William Carlos Williams C. D. Wright Charles Wright Franz Wright James Wright Kevin Young -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Thu Oct 27 19:20:36 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 18:20:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The poets in Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: <1319756356.67510.YahooMailNeo@web120526.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <2028F2E9570A4FC0BF891E64095C5644@BobHP> <1319756356.67510.YahooMailNeo@web120526.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Let's hear Ron Stilliman bad-mouth *that* list. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 5:59 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: > Here's an alphabetized list of the 175 poets from the book as listed on the > website referenced in a previous email. (I didn't correct the typos, so > if..I mean, so when you find misspellings, blame the website author.) > > ----- > Ai > Elizabeth Alexander > Sherman Alexie > Donald All > Paula Gunn Allen > A.R. Ammons > John Ashbery > W. H. Auden > Amiri Baraka (LeRoi Jones) > Ted Berrigan > John Berryman > Frank Bidart > Elizabeth Bishop > Robert Bly > Louise Bogan > Gwendolyn Brooks > Olga Broumas > Hayden Carruth > Lorna Dee Cervantes > Marilyn Chin > Sandra Cisneros > Lucille Clifton > Judith Ortiz Cofer > Billy Collins > Gregory Corso > Hart Crane > Robert Creeley > Victor Hernandez Cruz > Countee Cullen > E. E. Cummings > Carl Dennis > Toi Derricotte > James Dickey > Stephen Dobyns > Hilda Doolittle (H.D.) > Mark Doty > Rita Dove > Norman Dubie > Alan Dugan > Paul Lawrence Dunbar > Alice Moore Dunbar-Nelson > Robert Duncan > Stephen Dunn > Cornelius Eady > Russell Edson > T. S. Eliot > Louis Erdrich > B.H. Fairchild > Lawrence Ferlinghetti > Annie Finch > Nick Flynn > Carolyn Forche > Robert Francis > Robert Frost > Alice Fulton > Tess Gallagher > Albert Goldbarth > Jorie Graham > Angelina Weld Grimke > Barbara Hamby > Joy Harjo > Michael S. Harper > Robert Hass > Robert Hayden > Terrance Hayes > Anthony Hecht > Lyn Hejinian > Garrett Hongo > Marie Howe > Andrew Hudgins > Langston Hughes > Richard Hugo > Mark Jarman > Randall Jarrell > Robinson Jeffers > James Weldon Johnson > June Jordan > Weldon Kees > Brigit Pegeen Kelly > Galway Kinnell > Carolyn Kizer > Joanna Klink > Etheridge Knight > Kenneth Koch > Yusef Komunyakaa > Maxine Kumin > Stanley Kunitz > Li-Young Lee > Denise Levertove > Philip Levine > Larry Levis > Audre Lorde > Adrian C. Louis > Amy Lowell > Robert Lowell > Thomas Lux > Nathaniel Mackey > Archibald MacLeish > Haki R. Madhubuti (Don L. Lee) > David Mason > Edgar Lee Masters > William Matthews > Heather McHugh > Claude McKay > William Meredith > James Merrill > W. S. Merwin > Jane Miller > Marianne Moore > Paul Muldoon > Harryette Mullen > Carol Muske-Dukes > Marilyn Nelson > Howard Nemerov > Naomi Shihab Nye > Frank O?Hara > Sharon Olds > Mary Oliver > Charles Olson > Gregory Orr > Michael Palmer > Carl Phillips > Robert Pinsky > Ezra Pound > Dudley Randell > Adrienne Rich > Alberto Rios > Edwin Arlington Robinson > Theodore Roethke > Muriel Rukeyser > Kay Ryan > Sonia Sanchez > Carl Sandburg > Delmore Schwartz > Frederick Seidel > Anne Sexton > Brenda Shaughnessy > Laurie Sheck > Leslie Marmon Silko > Charles Simic > Louis Simpson > Gary Snyder > Cathy Song > Gary Soto > David St. John > William Stafford > A.E. Stallings > Gertrude Stein > Gerald Stern > Wallace Stevens > Susan Stewart > Ron Stilliman > Ruth Stone > Mark Strand > James Tate > Henry Taylor > Sara Teasdale > Melvin B. Tolson > Jean Toomer > Natasha Trethewey > Reetika Vazirani > Diane Wakoski > Derek Walcott > Margaret Walker > James Welch > Roberta HIll Whiteman > Richard Wilbur > C. K. Williams > Miller Williams > William Carlos Williams > C. D. Wright > Charles Wright > Franz Wright > James Wright > Kevin Young > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com Thu Oct 27 20:26:35 2011 From: robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 01:26:35 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] The poets in Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: <1319756356.67510.YahooMailNeo@web120526.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <2028F2E9570A4FC0BF891E64095C5644@BobHP> <1319756356.67510.YahooMailNeo@web120526.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5FDC081329244280886BD5DA964F60A6@OwnerPC> If Auden gets in as American, why not Thom Gunn? And just what the hell is Paul Muldoon doing there? He?s not even English, he?s Northern Irish, part of the original Belfast Group, along with Seamus Heaney [though didn?t he move to America too, so why isn?t he there?] . And what about Derek Walcott? He spends a lot of his time in America, AND he?s a Nobel Prizewinner. I mean, if you?re going for cultural expropriation, why stop with Auden and Muldoon? Seems a bit incoherent for all of me. And if you?re going for more-bang-for-your-bucks (which isn?t the worst criterion to use in choosing a teaching anthology), surely Norton has something in this area which gives you more poems for your dollar? I mean, if you?re into buying bland, you might as well go for SuperKingSized Bland. Robin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: John Jeffrey Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 11:59 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: [New-Poetry] The poets in Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse Here's an alphabetized list of the 175 poets from the book as listed on the website referenced in a previous email. (I didn't correct the typos, so if..I mean, so when you find misspellings, blame the website author.) ----- Ai Elizabeth Alexander Sherman Alexie Donald All Paula Gunn Allen A.R. Ammons John Ashbery W. H. Auden Amiri Baraka (LeRoi Jones) Ted Berrigan John Berryman Frank Bidart Elizabeth Bishop Robert Bly Louise Bogan Gwendolyn Brooks Olga Broumas Hayden Carruth Lorna Dee Cervantes Marilyn Chin Sandra Cisneros Lucille Clifton Judith Ortiz Cofer Billy Collins Gregory Corso Hart Crane Robert Creeley Victor Hernandez Cruz Countee Cullen E. E. Cummings Carl Dennis Toi Derricotte James Dickey Stephen Dobyns Hilda Doolittle (H.D.) Mark Doty Rita Dove Norman Dubie Alan Dugan Paul Lawrence Dunbar Alice Moore Dunbar-Nelson Robert Duncan Stephen Dunn Cornelius Eady Russell Edson T. S. Eliot Louis Erdrich B.H. Fairchild Lawrence Ferlinghetti Annie Finch Nick Flynn Carolyn Forche Robert Francis Robert Frost Alice Fulton Tess Gallagher Albert Goldbarth Jorie Graham Angelina Weld Grimke Barbara Hamby Joy Harjo Michael S. Harper Robert Hass Robert Hayden Terrance Hayes Anthony Hecht Lyn Hejinian Garrett Hongo Marie Howe Andrew Hudgins Langston Hughes Richard Hugo Mark Jarman Randall Jarrell Robinson Jeffers James Weldon Johnson June Jordan Weldon Kees Brigit Pegeen Kelly Galway Kinnell Carolyn Kizer Joanna Klink Etheridge Knight Kenneth Koch Yusef Komunyakaa Maxine Kumin Stanley Kunitz Li-Young Lee Denise Levertove Philip Levine Larry Levis Audre Lorde Adrian C. Louis Amy Lowell Robert Lowell Thomas Lux Nathaniel Mackey Archibald MacLeish Haki R. Madhubuti (Don L. Lee) David Mason Edgar Lee Masters William Matthews Heather McHugh Claude McKay William Meredith James Merrill W. S. Merwin Jane Miller Marianne Moore Paul Muldoon Harryette Mullen Carol Muske-Dukes Marilyn Nelson Howard Nemerov Naomi Shihab Nye Frank O?Hara Sharon Olds Mary Oliver Charles Olson Gregory Orr Michael Palmer Carl Phillips Robert Pinsky Ezra Pound Dudley Randell Adrienne Rich Alberto Rios Edwin Arlington Robinson Theodore Roethke Muriel Rukeyser Kay Ryan Sonia Sanchez Carl Sandburg Delmore Schwartz Frederick Seidel Anne Sexton Brenda Shaughnessy Laurie Sheck Leslie Marmon Silko Charles Simic Louis Simpson Gary Snyder Cathy Song Gary Soto David St. John William Stafford A.E. Stallings Gertrude Stein Gerald Stern Wallace Stevens Susan Stewart Ron Stilliman Ruth Stone Mark Strand James Tate Henry Taylor Sara Teasdale Melvin B. Tolson Jean Toomer Natasha Trethewey Reetika Vazirani Diane Wakoski Derek Walcott Margaret Walker James Welch Roberta HIll Whiteman Richard Wilbur C. K. Williams Miller Williams William Carlos Williams C. D. Wright Charles Wright Franz Wright James Wright Kevin Young -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Oct 28 01:12:36 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 00:12:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: <8CE6307B4F9D2F6-1E54-81BD0@webmail-d018.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE62D772F9AB4C-1E54-7BCC9@webmail-d018.sysops.aol.com><29F9982F237D4D96B082810F3B06D1ED@BobHP> <8CE6307B4F9D2F6-1E54-81BD0@webmail-d018.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D0490AA-4890-4614-9E41-2684EE6E8262@ripon.edu> I've read Miller Williams and he's a solid poet. I have nothing against him or his work. But there is something more than a little skewed in producing a survey of 20th Century American verse that omits hugely influential figures like Sylvia Plath and Allen Ginsberg while including poets like Miller Williams, Laurie Sheck, and William Meredith, who just aren't in the same league in terms of poetic footprints on the 20th Century. Obviously Dove made some effort to be inclusive, sampling figures from various camps and schools; and she made a largely successful effort to represent poets of color better than many mainstream anthologies have. In that context, though, if you're going to represent the Beat Generation, why on earth include Corso and Ferlingetti but not Ginsberg? Does she seriously believe either of them are a) better or b) more important to poetry than Ginsberg? I just don't get it. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Oct 27, 2011, at 4:37 PM, wrote: > Two poems does not a career or a poet make. I studied with Miller and have met few people who know poetry like he does. His work is not always my cup of tea, but he's damn good at what he does. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From oedipa at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 01:27:49 2011 From: oedipa at gmail.com (karen) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 22:27:49 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: <4D0490AA-4890-4614-9E41-2684EE6E8262@ripon.edu> References: <8CE62D772F9AB4C-1E54-7BCC9@webmail-d018.sysops.aol.com> <29F9982F237D4D96B082810F3B06D1ED@BobHP> <8CE6307B4F9D2F6-1E54-81BD0@webmail-d018.sysops.aol.com> <4D0490AA-4890-4614-9E41-2684EE6E8262@ripon.edu> Message-ID: Miller is cool. So is his daughter Lucinda! Just sayin'. k On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 10:12 PM, David Graham wrote: > I've read Miller Williams and he's a solid poet. I have nothing against > him or his work. But there is something more than a little skewed in > producing a survey of 20th Century American verse that omits hugely > influential figures like Sylvia Plath and Allen Ginsberg while including > poets like Miller Williams, Laurie Sheck, and William Meredith, who just > aren't in the same league in terms of poetic footprints on the 20th Century. > > > Obviously Dove made some effort to be inclusive, sampling figures from > various camps and schools; and she made a largely successful effort to > represent poets of color better than many mainstream anthologies have. In > that context, though, if you're going to represent the Beat Generation, why > on earth include Corso and Ferlingetti but not Ginsberg? Does she seriously > believe either of them are a) better or b) more important to poetry than > Ginsberg? I just don't get it. > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Oct 27, 2011, at 4:37 PM, > wrote: > > Two poems does not a career or a poet make. I studied with Miller and > have met few people who know poetry like he does. His work is not always my > cup of tea, but he's damn good at what he does. > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- k -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From oedipa at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 01:29:25 2011 From: oedipa at gmail.com (karen) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 22:29:25 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: <5409F72D57CB4CED8ED7C77672E3FF19@BobHP> References: <5409F72D57CB4CED8ED7C77672E3FF19@BobHP> Message-ID: But wait! There's more! Send him $19.99 and you'll get FOUR copies of never before read Grumman!!!! Act now! Offer ends soon! k On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 1:57 PM, bob grumman wrote: > > > *From:* David Weinstock > *Sent:* Thursday, October 27, 2011 12:02 PM > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse > > On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 3:52 PM, Mycroft wrote: > > > > Miller Williams sounds familiar but I can?t believe he?s much if I > haven?t heard of him. > > You know, Mycroft, I think I should learn your techniques, it would save a > lot of time. You don't have to read a book to know what you think of it. > > Send me a check for thirteen dollars (Bob Grumman, 1708 Hayworth Road, Port > Charlotte FL 33952), and I?ll send you a copy of my *Of Manywhere-at-Once. > * You haven?t read it, so don?t tell me you don?t think you?d like it. > You can?t know that without reading it. > > And if you haven't even heard of a poet, then he's worth even less than > someone you've heard of but not read. And Ginsberg is no good, but you > wouldn't want him left out of an anthology of the mainstream. > > Mycroft, I have never seen a person so proud of his ignorance. > > The key is inference, David. As I explained. Another good thing to try to > learn is reading with some degree of understanding. > > --Bob > > > > > > > > -- > DAVID WEINSTOCK > Email: david.weinstock at gmail.com > Mail: 240 Woodland Park, Middlebury VT 05753 USA > Blog: www.waitingforhungry.blogspot.com > Phone: 802-388-6939 > Cell: 802-989-4314 > > ------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- k -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From oedipa at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 01:39:14 2011 From: oedipa at gmail.com (karen) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 22:39:14 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] The poets in Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: <5FDC081329244280886BD5DA964F60A6@OwnerPC> References: <2028F2E9570A4FC0BF891E64095C5644@BobHP> <1319756356.67510.YahooMailNeo@web120526.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5FDC081329244280886BD5DA964F60A6@OwnerPC> Message-ID: Excellent points. Thom Gunn should be on there, Mary Oliver should not. Seriously. On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 5:26 PM, Robin Hamilton < robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com> wrote: > If Auden gets in as American, why not Thom Gunn? And just what the hell > is Paul Muldoon doing there? He?s not even English, he?s Northern Irish, > part of the original Belfast Group, along with Seamus Heaney [though didn?t > he move to America too, so why isn?t he there?] . And what about Derek > Walcott? He spends a lot of his time in America, AND he?s a Nobel > Prizewinner. > > I mean, if you?re going for cultural expropriation, why stop with Auden and > Muldoon? > > Seems a bit incoherent for all of me. And if you?re going for > more-bang-for-your-bucks (which isn?t the worst criterion to use in choosing > a teaching anthology), surely Norton has something in this area which gives > you more poems for your dollar? I mean, if you?re into buying bland, you > might as well go for SuperKingSized Bland. > > Robin > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* John Jeffrey > *Sent:* Thursday, October 27, 2011 11:59 PM > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Subject:* [New-Poetry] The poets in Penguin Anthology of 20th Century > Verse > > Here's an alphabetized list of the 175 poets from the book as listed on > the website referenced in a previous email. (I didn't correct the typos, so > if..I mean, so when you find misspellings, blame the website author.) > > ----- > Ai > Elizabeth Alexander > Sherman Alexie > Donald All > Paula Gunn Allen > A.R. Ammons > John Ashbery > W. H. Auden > Amiri Baraka (LeRoi Jones) > Ted Berrigan > John Berryman > Frank Bidart > Elizabeth Bishop > Robert Bly > Louise Bogan > Gwendolyn Brooks > Olga Broumas > Hayden Carruth > Lorna Dee Cervantes > Marilyn Chin > Sandra Cisneros > Lucille Clifton > Judith Ortiz Cofer > Billy Collins > Gregory Corso > Hart Crane > Robert Creeley > Victor Hernandez Cruz > Countee Cullen > E. E. Cummings > Carl Dennis > Toi Derricotte > James Dickey > Stephen Dobyns > Hilda Doolittle (H.D.) > Mark Doty > Rita Dove > Norman Dubie > Alan Dugan > Paul Lawrence Dunbar > Alice Moore Dunbar-Nelson > Robert Duncan > Stephen Dunn > Cornelius Eady > Russell Edson > T. S. Eliot > Louis Erdrich > B.H. Fairchild > Lawrence Ferlinghetti > Annie Finch > Nick Flynn > Carolyn Forche > Robert Francis > Robert Frost > Alice Fulton > Tess Gallagher > Albert Goldbarth > Jorie Graham > Angelina Weld Grimke > Barbara Hamby > Joy Harjo > Michael S. Harper > Robert Hass > Robert Hayden > Terrance Hayes > Anthony Hecht > Lyn Hejinian > Garrett Hongo > Marie Howe > Andrew Hudgins > Langston Hughes > Richard Hugo > Mark Jarman > Randall Jarrell > Robinson Jeffers > James Weldon Johnson > June Jordan > Weldon Kees > Brigit Pegeen Kelly > Galway Kinnell > Carolyn Kizer > Joanna Klink > Etheridge Knight > Kenneth Koch > Yusef Komunyakaa > Maxine Kumin > Stanley Kunitz > Li-Young Lee > Denise Levertove > Philip Levine > Larry Levis > Audre Lorde > Adrian C. Louis > Amy Lowell > Robert Lowell > Thomas Lux > Nathaniel Mackey > Archibald MacLeish > Haki R. Madhubuti (Don L. Lee) > David Mason > Edgar Lee Masters > William Matthews > Heather McHugh > Claude McKay > William Meredith > James Merrill > W. S. Merwin > Jane Miller > Marianne Moore > Paul Muldoon > Harryette Mullen > Carol Muske-Dukes > Marilyn Nelson > Howard Nemerov > Naomi Shihab Nye > Frank O?Hara > Sharon Olds > Mary Oliver > Charles Olson > Gregory Orr > Michael Palmer > Carl Phillips > Robert Pinsky > Ezra Pound > Dudley Randell > Adrienne Rich > Alberto Rios > Edwin Arlington Robinson > Theodore Roethke > Muriel Rukeyser > Kay Ryan > Sonia Sanchez > Carl Sandburg > Delmore Schwartz > Frederick Seidel > Anne Sexton > Brenda Shaughnessy > Laurie Sheck > Leslie Marmon Silko > Charles Simic > Louis Simpson > Gary Snyder > Cathy Song > Gary Soto > David St. John > William Stafford > A.E. Stallings > Gertrude Stein > Gerald Stern > Wallace Stevens > Susan Stewart > Ron Stilliman > Ruth Stone > Mark Strand > James Tate > Henry Taylor > Sara Teasdale > Melvin B. Tolson > Jean Toomer > Natasha Trethewey > Reetika Vazirani > Diane Wakoski > Derek Walcott > Margaret Walker > James Welch > Roberta HIll Whiteman > Richard Wilbur > C. K. Williams > Miller Williams > William Carlos Williams > C. D. Wright > Charles Wright > Franz Wright > James Wright > Kevin Young > > ------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- k -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Oct 28 01:45:21 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 01:45:21 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] The poets in Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse Message-ID: <8905682.1319780721875.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From oedipa at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 01:56:37 2011 From: oedipa at gmail.com (karen) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 22:56:37 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] The poets in Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: <8905682.1319780721875.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <8905682.1319780721875.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: I know, but seriously...Mary Oliver?????? Really? On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 10:45 PM, wrote: > This is something anthologists usually think about. One has to set > boundaries and stick by them or the anthology loses any reason for being. > Why not include all the Spanish language writers who spend most of the year > in the US teaching? How about writers who've spent years in the US as exiles > or refugees? The judgment it seems to me has to be which culture's > conversation is the poet's primary conversation. > > -----Original Message----- > From: karen ** > Sent: Oct 28, 2011 1:39 AM > To: NewPoetry List ** > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The poets in Penguin Anthology of 20th Century > Verse > > Excellent points. Thom Gunn should be on there, Mary Oliver should not. > Seriously. > > On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 5:26 PM, Robin Hamilton < > robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com> wrote: > >> If Auden gets in as American, why not Thom Gunn? And just what the >> hell is Paul Muldoon doing there? He?s not even English, he?s Northern >> Irish, part of the original Belfast Group, along with Seamus Heaney [though >> didn?t he move to America too, so why isn?t he there?] . And what about >> Derek Walcott? He spends a lot of his time in America, AND he?s a Nobel >> Prizewinner. >> >> I mean, if you?re going for cultural expropriation, why stop with Auden >> and Muldoon? >> >> Seems a bit incoherent for all of me. And if you?re going for >> more-bang-for-your-bucks (which isn?t the worst criterion to use in choosing >> a teaching anthology), surely Norton has something in this area which gives >> you more poems for your dollar? I mean, if you?re into buying bland, you >> might as well go for SuperKingSized Bland. >> >> Robin >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> *From:* John Jeffrey >> *Sent:* Thursday, October 27, 2011 11:59 PM >> *To:* NewPoetry List >> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] The poets in Penguin Anthology of 20th Century >> Verse >> >> Here's an alphabetized list of the 175 poets from the book as listed on >> the website referenced in a previous email. (I didn't correct the typos, so >> if..I mean, so when you find misspellings, blame the website author.) >> >> ----- >> Ai >> Elizabeth Alexander >> Sherman Alexie >> Donald All >> Paula Gunn Allen >> A.R. Ammons >> John Ashbery >> W. H. Auden >> Amiri Baraka (LeRoi Jones) >> Ted Berrigan >> John Berryman >> Frank Bidart >> Elizabeth Bishop >> Robert Bly >> Louise Bogan >> Gwendolyn Brooks >> Olga Broumas >> Hayden Carruth >> Lorna Dee Cervantes >> Marilyn Chin >> Sandra Cisneros >> Lucille Clifton >> Judith Ortiz Cofer >> Billy Collins >> Gregory Corso >> Hart Crane >> Robert Creeley >> Victor Hernandez Cruz >> Countee Cullen >> E. E. Cummings >> Carl Dennis >> Toi Derricotte >> James Dickey >> Stephen Dobyns >> Hilda Doolittle (H.D.) >> Mark Doty >> Rita Dove >> Norman Dubie >> Alan Dugan >> Paul Lawrence Dunbar >> Alice Moore Dunbar-Nelson >> Robert Duncan >> Stephen Dunn >> Cornelius Eady >> Russell Edson >> T. S. Eliot >> Louis Erdrich >> B.H. Fairchild >> Lawrence Ferlinghetti >> Annie Finch >> Nick Flynn >> Carolyn Forche >> Robert Francis >> Robert Frost >> Alice Fulton >> Tess Gallagher >> Albert Goldbarth >> Jorie Graham >> Angelina Weld Grimke >> Barbara Hamby >> Joy Harjo >> Michael S. Harper >> Robert Hass >> Robert Hayden >> Terrance Hayes >> Anthony Hecht >> Lyn Hejinian >> Garrett Hongo >> Marie Howe >> Andrew Hudgins >> Langston Hughes >> Richard Hugo >> Mark Jarman >> Randall Jarrell >> Robinson Jeffers >> James Weldon Johnson >> June Jordan >> Weldon Kees >> Brigit Pegeen Kelly >> Galway Kinnell >> Carolyn Kizer >> Joanna Klink >> Etheridge Knight >> Kenneth Koch >> Yusef Komunyakaa >> Maxine Kumin >> Stanley Kunitz >> Li-Young Lee >> Denise Levertove >> Philip Levine >> Larry Levis >> Audre Lorde >> Adrian C. Louis >> Amy Lowell >> Robert Lowell >> Thomas Lux >> Nathaniel Mackey >> Archibald MacLeish >> Haki R. Madhubuti (Don L. Lee) >> David Mason >> Edgar Lee Masters >> William Matthews >> Heather McHugh >> Claude McKay >> William Meredith >> James Merrill >> W. S. Merwin >> Jane Miller >> Marianne Moore >> Paul Muldoon >> Harryette Mullen >> Carol Muske-Dukes >> Marilyn Nelson >> Howard Nemerov >> Naomi Shihab Nye >> Frank O?Hara >> Sharon Olds >> Mary Oliver >> Charles Olson >> Gregory Orr >> Michael Palmer >> Carl Phillips >> Robert Pinsky >> Ezra Pound >> Dudley Randell >> Adrienne Rich >> Alberto Rios >> Edwin Arlington Robinson >> Theodore Roethke >> Muriel Rukeyser >> Kay Ryan >> Sonia Sanchez >> Carl Sandburg >> Delmore Schwartz >> Frederick Seidel >> Anne Sexton >> Brenda Shaughnessy >> Laurie Sheck >> Leslie Marmon Silko >> Charles Simic >> Louis Simpson >> Gary Snyder >> Cathy Song >> Gary Soto >> David St. John >> William Stafford >> A.E. Stallings >> Gertrude Stein >> Gerald Stern >> Wallace Stevens >> Susan Stewart >> Ron Stilliman >> Ruth Stone >> Mark Strand >> James Tate >> Henry Taylor >> Sara Teasdale >> Melvin B. Tolson >> Jean Toomer >> Natasha Trethewey >> Reetika Vazirani >> Diane Wakoski >> Derek Walcott >> Margaret Walker >> James Welch >> Roberta HIll Whiteman >> Richard Wilbur >> C. K. Williams >> Miller Williams >> William Carlos Williams >> C. D. Wright >> Charles Wright >> Franz Wright >> James Wright >> Kevin Young >> >> ------------------------------ >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > k > **** > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- k -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Oct 28 01:58:59 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 01:58:59 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] The poets in Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse Message-ID: <17328632.1319781539831.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From oedipa at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 02:06:37 2011 From: oedipa at gmail.com (karen) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2011 23:06:37 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] The poets in Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: <17328632.1319781539831.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <17328632.1319781539831.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: I know. But I will "wake early" tomorrow solely because of nightmares about Oliver's poetry. It's like Rod McKuen or something.... Ugh. On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 10:58 PM, wrote: > Agreed. But I think I feel that way about at least two thirds of those > included. > > -----Original Message----- > From: karen ** > Sent: Oct 28, 2011 1:56 AM > To: NewPoetry List ** > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The poets in Penguin Anthology of 20th Century > Verse > > I know, but seriously...Mary Oliver?????? Really? > > On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 10:45 PM, wrote: > >> This is something anthologists usually think about. One has to set >> boundaries and stick by them or the anthology loses any reason for being. >> Why not include all the Spanish language writers who spend most of the year >> in the US teaching? How about writers who've spent years in the US as exiles >> or refugees? The judgment it seems to me has to be which culture's >> conversation is the poet's primary conversation. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: karen ** >> Sent: Oct 28, 2011 1:39 AM >> To: NewPoetry List ** >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The poets in Penguin Anthology of 20th Century >> Verse >> >> Excellent points. Thom Gunn should be on there, Mary Oliver should not. >> Seriously. >> >> On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 5:26 PM, Robin Hamilton < >> robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com> wrote: >> >>> If Auden gets in as American, why not Thom Gunn? And just what the >>> hell is Paul Muldoon doing there? He?s not even English, he?s Northern >>> Irish, part of the original Belfast Group, along with Seamus Heaney [though >>> didn?t he move to America too, so why isn?t he there?] . And what about >>> Derek Walcott? He spends a lot of his time in America, AND he?s a Nobel >>> Prizewinner. >>> >>> I mean, if you?re going for cultural expropriation, why stop with Auden >>> and Muldoon? >>> >>> Seems a bit incoherent for all of me. And if you?re going for >>> more-bang-for-your-bucks (which isn?t the worst criterion to use in choosing >>> a teaching anthology), surely Norton has something in this area which gives >>> you more poems for your dollar? I mean, if you?re into buying bland, you >>> might as well go for SuperKingSized Bland. >>> >>> Robin >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> >>> *From:* John Jeffrey >>> *Sent:* Thursday, October 27, 2011 11:59 PM >>> *To:* NewPoetry List >>> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] The poets in Penguin Anthology of 20th Century >>> Verse >>> >>> Here's an alphabetized list of the 175 poets from the book as listed on >>> the website referenced in a previous email. (I didn't correct the typos, so >>> if..I mean, so when you find misspellings, blame the website author.) >>> >>> ----- >>> Ai >>> Elizabeth Alexander >>> Sherman Alexie >>> Donald All >>> Paula Gunn Allen >>> A.R. Ammons >>> John Ashbery >>> W. H. Auden >>> Amiri Baraka (LeRoi Jones) >>> Ted Berrigan >>> John Berryman >>> Frank Bidart >>> Elizabeth Bishop >>> Robert Bly >>> Louise Bogan >>> Gwendolyn Brooks >>> Olga Broumas >>> Hayden Carruth >>> Lorna Dee Cervantes >>> Marilyn Chin >>> Sandra Cisneros >>> Lucille Clifton >>> Judith Ortiz Cofer >>> Billy Collins >>> Gregory Corso >>> Hart Crane >>> Robert Creeley >>> Victor Hernandez Cruz >>> Countee Cullen >>> E. E. Cummings >>> Carl Dennis >>> Toi Derricotte >>> James Dickey >>> Stephen Dobyns >>> Hilda Doolittle (H.D.) >>> Mark Doty >>> Rita Dove >>> Norman Dubie >>> Alan Dugan >>> Paul Lawrence Dunbar >>> Alice Moore Dunbar-Nelson >>> Robert Duncan >>> Stephen Dunn >>> Cornelius Eady >>> Russell Edson >>> T. S. Eliot >>> Louis Erdrich >>> B.H. Fairchild >>> Lawrence Ferlinghetti >>> Annie Finch >>> Nick Flynn >>> Carolyn Forche >>> Robert Francis >>> Robert Frost >>> Alice Fulton >>> Tess Gallagher >>> Albert Goldbarth >>> Jorie Graham >>> Angelina Weld Grimke >>> Barbara Hamby >>> Joy Harjo >>> Michael S. Harper >>> Robert Hass >>> Robert Hayden >>> Terrance Hayes >>> Anthony Hecht >>> Lyn Hejinian >>> Garrett Hongo >>> Marie Howe >>> Andrew Hudgins >>> Langston Hughes >>> Richard Hugo >>> Mark Jarman >>> Randall Jarrell >>> Robinson Jeffers >>> James Weldon Johnson >>> June Jordan >>> Weldon Kees >>> Brigit Pegeen Kelly >>> Galway Kinnell >>> Carolyn Kizer >>> Joanna Klink >>> Etheridge Knight >>> Kenneth Koch >>> Yusef Komunyakaa >>> Maxine Kumin >>> Stanley Kunitz >>> Li-Young Lee >>> Denise Levertove >>> Philip Levine >>> Larry Levis >>> Audre Lorde >>> Adrian C. Louis >>> Amy Lowell >>> Robert Lowell >>> Thomas Lux >>> Nathaniel Mackey >>> Archibald MacLeish >>> Haki R. Madhubuti (Don L. Lee) >>> David Mason >>> Edgar Lee Masters >>> William Matthews >>> Heather McHugh >>> Claude McKay >>> William Meredith >>> James Merrill >>> W. S. Merwin >>> Jane Miller >>> Marianne Moore >>> Paul Muldoon >>> Harryette Mullen >>> Carol Muske-Dukes >>> Marilyn Nelson >>> Howard Nemerov >>> Naomi Shihab Nye >>> Frank O?Hara >>> Sharon Olds >>> Mary Oliver >>> Charles Olson >>> Gregory Orr >>> Michael Palmer >>> Carl Phillips >>> Robert Pinsky >>> Ezra Pound >>> Dudley Randell >>> Adrienne Rich >>> Alberto Rios >>> Edwin Arlington Robinson >>> Theodore Roethke >>> Muriel Rukeyser >>> Kay Ryan >>> Sonia Sanchez >>> Carl Sandburg >>> Delmore Schwartz >>> Frederick Seidel >>> Anne Sexton >>> Brenda Shaughnessy >>> Laurie Sheck >>> Leslie Marmon Silko >>> Charles Simic >>> Louis Simpson >>> Gary Snyder >>> Cathy Song >>> Gary Soto >>> David St. John >>> William Stafford >>> A.E. Stallings >>> Gertrude Stein >>> Gerald Stern >>> Wallace Stevens >>> Susan Stewart >>> Ron Stilliman >>> Ruth Stone >>> Mark Strand >>> James Tate >>> Henry Taylor >>> Sara Teasdale >>> Melvin B. Tolson >>> Jean Toomer >>> Natasha Trethewey >>> Reetika Vazirani >>> Diane Wakoski >>> Derek Walcott >>> Margaret Walker >>> James Welch >>> Roberta HIll Whiteman >>> Richard Wilbur >>> C. K. Williams >>> Miller Williams >>> William Carlos Williams >>> C. D. Wright >>> Charles Wright >>> Franz Wright >>> James Wright >>> Kevin Young >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> k >> **** >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > k > **** > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- k -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From dbarone at sjc.edu Fri Oct 28 07:13:33 2011 From: dbarone at sjc.edu (Barone, Dennis) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 07:13:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] anthology Message-ID: <4101B1FE0324D548B4795FB8FD30FE2A013A813C@sjcexchange.SJC.EDU> The anthology to see and to talk about might not be the Penguin one, but New Hungers for Old: One-Hundred Years of Italian-American Poetry -- just out from Star Cloud Press (www.starcloudpress.com). There will be a large group reading for this book of one hundred poets from Arturo Giovannitti to Elaine Equi on January 4th at Saint Marks in NYC. "New Hungers for Old underscores a distinctive intersection of heritage and the larger culture in the flavor of its innovations. The dazzling variety of poems share an infatuation with life itself [...] It is a landmark collection that is essential reading," according to Josephine G. Hendin. And I might add that I am the editor of the volume but since there are 100 voices in addition to mine (Mary Caponegro wrote the introduction), then this brief message can't really be called self-promotion. Dennis -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Oct 28 09:51:41 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 09:51:41 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] anthology Message-ID: <7068214.1319809902348.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Fri Oct 28 11:04:46 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 08:04:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] anthology In-Reply-To: <7068214.1319809902348.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <7068214.1319809902348.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1319814286.61725.YahooMailNeo@web120527.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> When it comes to content, I tend to find this sort of themed anthology easier to take.? I give the editor all latitude.? It's the sort of thing Rita Dove did that annoys me.? For a major "survey" type of anthology (especially a century long one), I'd rather the poets were chosen by a panel or consensus.? Yes, simply give me the big names, the influential poets, the ones who best represent a style, movement, whatever.? That's what I want in a survey of 20th Century American Poetry. What I don't want is an editor with an agenda, who then tosses out Ginsberg or Plath because he or she feels that, say, left-handed poets are under-represented in most anthologies.? Or conservative poets.? Or poets with Tourettes.? Or whatever group they are sympathetic to or have a bias toward. Otherwise, edit an anthology called A Millennium of Left-Handed Poetry.? Or 25 Redheaded Poets.? Or, as Dennis did, One-Hundred Years of Italian-American Poetry.? At least then I get a declaration of bias right on the cover.? I'm okay with that. JohnJ >________________________________ >From: "junction at earthlink.net" >To: NewPoetry List >Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 9:51 AM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] anthology > > >It's self-promotion, but why not? The real questions are whether there is such a thing as Italian-American poetry as opposed to American poetry written by people of Italian descent, and if so is it distinguishable from the broader field by anything except cultural referents (food, childhood stories and the like). > >Oh, and another question: is there a set of criteria for inclusion other than genetics that shapes the reader's understanding of the field or creates a sense that there is a field? > >Of course, one could also do an anthology of Italian-American poems about being Italian-American.? In most cases they wouldn't give much sense of the individual oeuvres of the poets, but it could still be an interesting book. > >I may be completely wrong about this. > >Best, > >Mark > > >-----Original Message----- >>From: "Barone, Dennis" >>Sent: Oct 28, 2011 7:13 AM >>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>Subject: [New-Poetry] anthology >> >> >>The anthology to see and to talk about might not be the Penguin one, but New Hungers for Old: One-Hundred Years of Italian-American Poetry -- just out from Star Cloud Press (www.starcloudpress.com).? There will be a large group reading for this book of one hundred poets from Arturo Giovannitti to Elaine Equi on January 4th at Saint Marks in NYC.? "New Hungers for Old underscores a distinctive intersection of heritage and the larger culture in the flavor of its innovations.? The dazzling variety of poems share an infatuation with life itself [...]? It is a landmark collection that is essential reading,"? according to Josephine G. Hendin.? And I might add that I am the editor of the volume but since there are 100 voices in addition to mine (Mary Caponegro wrote the introduction), then this brief message can't really be called self-promotion.? Dennis >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Oct 28 11:15:54 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 11:15:54 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] anthology Message-ID: <6730831.1319814955356.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Oct 28 11:51:12 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 10:51:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Louise Gluck Message-ID: As a break from complaining about anthologies, I thought I'd read some individual poems, and complain about them. For example, I have never quite understood Louise Gluck's appeal as a poet, and certainly not the awe in which she is held by so many readers I respect. I recognize she can craft an image, and is clearly a "good" poet. But many of her poems just seem flat and talky, and often melodramatic. Most of all, though, I just don't recognize her world, I suppose. The following poem just appeared in my in-box courtesy of Garrison Keillor. I read it twice, and never once did I think "that's insightful" or "I never thought of things that way." Nor was I dazzled by the craft in any way. Instead, I found myself wondering if anyone outside the realm of literature actually thinks and talks in this way. In addition to falling pretty flat to my ears, this poem sounds stagey in the worst way. I simply don't buy either the woman or the man as characters. I'm not particularly interested in a Gluck pile-on, though I realize I've opened the door to it, as well as to dark comments about my own taste. I'm more interested in knowing if anyone who loves her work can articulate the appeal of a poem such as this one. In the Plaza For two weeks he's been watching the same girl, someone he sees in the plaza. In her twenties maybe, drinking coffee in the afternoon, the little dark head bent over a magazine. He watches from across the square, pretending to be buying something, cigarettes, maybe a bouquet of flowers. Because she doesn't know it exists, her power is very great now, fused to the needs of his imagination. He is her prisoner. She says the words he gives her in a voice he imagines, low-pitched and soft, a voice from the south as the dark hair must be from the south. Soon she will recognize him, then begin to expect him. And perhaps then every day her hair will be freshly washed, she will gaze outward across the plaza before looking down. and after that they will become lovers. But he hopes this will not happen immediately since whatever power she exerts now over his body, over his emotions, she will have no power once she commits herself? she will withdraw into that private world of feeling women enter when they love. And living there, she will become like a person who casts no shadow, who is not present in the world; in that sense, so little use to him it hardly matters whether she lives or dies. --Louise Gl?ck. A Village Life. Farrar, Straus & Giroux, 2009. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Fri Oct 28 10:58:20 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 09:58:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The poets in Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: References: <2028F2E9570A4FC0BF891E64095C5644@BobHP> <1319756356.67510.YahooMailNeo@web120526.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <5FDC081329244280886BD5DA964F60A6@OwnerPC> Message-ID: <4EAAC30C.6000604@louisiana.edu> I'm thinking, what do you expect from Penguin? And after all, wouldn't Dove (whom I've met one time and found lovely, warm, and altogether non-Diva-like) gather poets who, on balance, reflect her own poetics, where she wasn't obliged just to mine previous anthologies for Greatest Hits? Like the Norton Anthologies, this one is doomed to be a great lump of disappointments, with here and there a speck of something that shines--which you've already read somewhere else. Here's what it looks like to me: Dove prefers "approachable" poets to difficult poets; she prefers "smooth" poets to ragged poets; she prefers quiet poets to noisy poets; she prefers sincere poets to carnivalesque poets; she prefers subtly ironic poets to experimentally troping poets; she prefers conversational poets to "persona" poets; and she prefers "issue" (or "identity") poets to ludic poets. And again, there are schools of poets who are out of her orbit entirely (the Beats, LANGUAGE poets, performance-oriented poets), and she makes a half-hearted gesture of including here and there one or two of such poets according to criteria that, no doubt, are as close to "personal" as anything about the anthology. If I cringe at the idea that a Bernadette Mayer gets left out of a book this big, and Ginsberg--I'm entirely on David's side in /that /argument--and Bernstein, and McClure, these are preferences that mark the (substantial) differences between her tastes and mine. Penguin didn't ask me (of course) to put together their anthology, but given the criteria I'm assuming they paid Dove to attend to, mine might have looked largely the same, because this anthology was doomed from the beginning to look like the old anthologies, only with Dove's name on it. (If I'm wrong, and this book truly is somehow a marker of Dove's absolutely personal sense of what the world needs by way of a set of recommendations by a major American poet, then I give up--but oh, I forgot: I already gave up.) The only "need" for this book was that bubbling up from the corporate vats of one of the safest of 20th/21st century publishers. In any case, when I want to see whether an anthology is something I want to dig into, I go to the end of the index and see if "Zukofsky" is printed there. It usually isn't. Shame on you, anthologists of poetry, shame on you. Finally, one of my favorite anthology moments was when I noticed that Paul Hoover (the Norton Anthology of Postmodern Poetry) and Douglas Messerli (From the Other Side of the Century) left each other out of their anthologies, but provided ample space for themselves. And now I note that Dove didn't think it worth including either of them. Jerry On 10/28/2011 12:39 AM, karen wrote: > William Carlos Williams -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fox.skip at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 12:09:14 2011 From: fox.skip at gmail.com (Skip Fox) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 11:09:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Louise Gluck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: No fan of Gluck by far (I usually think of her work as a warm bath if that), but this was somewhat better than I expected. The last two stanzas make me think she may have a section of Goldsmith's "Deserted Village" in mind, and they do have a sense of emptiness in presence which reverses his work. (Or is reading anything prior to Ella Wheeler Wilcox foreign to her?) On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 10:51 AM, David Graham wrote: > As a break from complaining about anthologies, I thought I'd read some > individual poems, and complain about them. > > For example, I have never quite understood Louise Gluck's appeal as a poet, > and certainly not the awe in which she is held by so many readers I respect. > I recognize she can craft an image, and is clearly a "good" poet. But many > of her poems just seem flat and talky, and often melodramatic. > > Most of all, though, I just don't recognize her world, I suppose. The > following poem just appeared in my in-box courtesy of Garrison Keillor. I > read it twice, and never once did I think "that's insightful" or "I never > thought of things that way." Nor was I dazzled by the craft in any way. > Instead, I found myself wondering if anyone outside the realm of literature > actually thinks and talks in this way. In addition to falling pretty flat > to my ears, this poem sounds stagey in the worst way. I simply don't buy > either the woman or the man as characters. > > I'm not particularly interested in a Gluck pile-on, though I realize I've > opened the door to it, as well as to dark comments about my own taste. I'm > more interested in knowing if anyone who loves her work can articulate the > appeal of a poem such as this one. > > > * > In the Plaza > > For two weeks he's been watching the same girl, > someone he sees in the plaza. In her twenties maybe, > drinking coffee in the afternoon, the little dark head > bent over a magazine. > He watches from across the square, pretending > to be buying something, cigarettes, maybe a bouquet of flowers. > > Because she doesn't know it exists, > her power is very great now, fused to the needs of his imagination. > He is her prisoner. She says the words he gives her > in a voice he imagines, low-pitched and soft, > a voice from the south as the dark hair must be from the south. > > Soon she will recognize him, then begin to expect him. > And perhaps then every day her hair will be freshly washed, > she will gaze outward across the plaza before looking down. > and after that they will become lovers. > > But he hopes this will not happen immediately > since whatever power she exerts now over his body, over his emotions, > she will have no power once she commits herself? > > she will withdraw into that private world of feeling > women enter when they love. And living there, she will become > like a person who casts no shadow, who is not present in the world; > in that sense, so little use to him > it hardly matters whether she lives or dies. > > --Louise Gl?ck. A Village Life. Farrar, Straus & Giroux, 2009. > * > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Oct 28 12:59:35 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 12:59:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The poets in Penguin Anthology of 20th CenturyVerse In-Reply-To: <4EAAC30C.6000604@louisiana.edu> References: <2028F2E9570A4FC0BF891E64095C5644@BobHP><1319756356.67510.YahooMailNeo@web120526.mail.ne1.yahoo.com><5FDC081329244280886BD 5DA964F60A6@OwnerPC> <4EAAC30C.6000604@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <13BFFF53EB2F46279367BA00ED4ABF1D@BobHP> From: Jerry McGuire Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 10:58 AM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The poets in Penguin Anthology of 20th CenturyVerse I'm thinking, what do you expect from Penguin? And after all, wouldn't Dove (whom I've met one time and found lovely, warm, and altogether non-Diva-like) gather poets who, on balance, reflect her own poetics, where she wasn't obliged just to mine previous anthologies for Greatest Hits? Like the Norton Anthologies, this one is doomed to be a great lump of disappointments, with here and there a speck of something that shines--which you've already read somewhere else. Here's what it looks like to me: Dove prefers "approachable" poets to difficult poets; But like all correct anthologists she leaves out specialists in haiku, and light verse. You could fill an anthology with the work of conventional writers of haiku that?s as good as the work of the majority of poets in Dove?s anthology. Ironically, in my view, Pound?s best work was effectively a haiku; so was Williams?s. The amazing thing is not that so few people can think outside the box but that the box they do think in is so incredibly constricted. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Fri Oct 28 13:06:03 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 10:06:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Louise Gluck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1319821563.81568.YahooMailNeo@web120525.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I'm with you, David.? And it's not just Gl?ck, there are tons of poems like this being written.? (Keillor seems to like them, too, since I can often barely get through the poems he chooses.)? You say you weren't dazzled by the craft.? I don't see any craft, no poetic nuance at all, other than line breaks.? It reads like a first draft, like a thought written down to be worked up into a poem at some later date. >________________________________ >From: David Graham >To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu & Views" >Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 11:51 AM >Subject: [New-Poetry] Louise Gluck > > >As a break from complaining about anthologies, I thought I'd read some individual poems, and complain about them. ? > > >For example, I have never quite understood Louise Gluck's appeal as a poet, and certainly not the awe in which she is held by so many readers I respect. ?I recognize she can craft an image, and is clearly a "good" poet. ?But many of her poems just seem flat and talky, and often melodramatic. > > >Most of all, though, I just don't recognize her world, I suppose. ?The following poem just appeared in my in-box courtesy of Garrison Keillor. ?I read it twice, and never once did I think "that's insightful" or "I never thought of things that way." Nor was I dazzled by the craft in any way. ? Instead, I found myself wondering if anyone outside the realm of literature actually thinks and talks in this way. ?In addition to falling pretty flat to my ears, this poem sounds stagey in the worst way. ?I simply don't buy either the woman or the man as characters. ? > > >I'm not particularly interested in a Gluck pile-on, though I realize I've opened the door to it, as well as to dark comments about my own taste. ?I'm more interested in knowing if anyone who loves her work can articulate the appeal of a poem such as this one. ? > > > > >In the Plaza > > >For two weeks he's been watching the same girl, >someone he sees in the plaza. In her twenties maybe, >drinking coffee in the afternoon, the little dark head >bent over a magazine. >He watches from across the square, pretending >to be buying something, cigarettes, maybe a bouquet of flowers. > > >Because she doesn't know it exists, >her power is very great now, fused to the needs of his imagination. >He is her prisoner. She says the words he gives her >in a voice he imagines, low-pitched and soft, >a voice from the south as the dark hair must be from the south. > > >Soon she will recognize him, then begin to expect him. >And perhaps then every day her hair will be freshly washed, >she will gaze outward across the plaza before looking down. >and after that they will become lovers. > > >But he hopes this will not happen immediately >since whatever power she exerts now over his body, over his emotions, >she will have no power once she commits herself? > > >she will withdraw into that private world of feeling >women enter when they love. And living there, she will become >like a person who casts no shadow, who is not present in the world; >in that sense, so little use to him >it hardly matters whether she lives or dies. > > >--Louise Gl?ck.?A Village Life. Farrar, Straus & Giroux, 2009. >======================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu > > >Home Page: >http://web.me.com/drjazz > > >Poetry Library: >http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >========================================== > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 13:11:47 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 10:11:47 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Louise Gluck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree. It's a put-up job, a shadow play, a puppet drama. And flat, yes. - Jim On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 8:51 AM, David Graham wrote: > As a break from complaining about anthologies, I thought I'd read some > individual poems, and complain about them. > > For example, I have never quite understood Louise Gluck's appeal as a poet, > and certainly not the awe in which she is held by so many readers I respect. > I recognize she can craft an image, and is clearly a "good" poet. But many > of her poems just seem flat and talky, and often melodramatic. > > Most of all, though, I just don't recognize her world, I suppose. The > following poem just appeared in my in-box courtesy of Garrison Keillor. I > read it twice, and never once did I think "that's insightful" or "I never > thought of things that way." Nor was I dazzled by the craft in any way. > Instead, I found myself wondering if anyone outside the realm of literature > actually thinks and talks in this way. In addition to falling pretty flat > to my ears, this poem sounds stagey in the worst way. I simply don't buy > either the woman or the man as characters. > > I'm not particularly interested in a Gluck pile-on, though I realize I've > opened the door to it, as well as to dark comments about my own taste. I'm > more interested in knowing if anyone who loves her work can articulate the > appeal of a poem such as this one. > > > * > In the Plaza > > For two weeks he's been watching the same girl, > someone he sees in the plaza. In her twenties maybe, > drinking coffee in the afternoon, the little dark head > bent over a magazine. > He watches from across the square, pretending > to be buying something, cigarettes, maybe a bouquet of flowers. > > Because she doesn't know it exists, > her power is very great now, fused to the needs of his imagination. > He is her prisoner. She says the words he gives her > in a voice he imagines, low-pitched and soft, > a voice from the south as the dark hair must be from the south. > > Soon she will recognize him, then begin to expect him. > And perhaps then every day her hair will be freshly washed, > she will gaze outward across the plaza before looking down. > and after that they will become lovers. > > But he hopes this will not happen immediately > since whatever power she exerts now over his body, over his emotions, > she will have no power once she commits herself? > > she will withdraw into that private world of feeling > women enter when they love. And living there, she will become > like a person who casts no shadow, who is not present in the world; > in that sense, so little use to him > it hardly matters whether she lives or dies. > > --Louise Gl?ck. A Village Life. Farrar, Straus & Giroux, 2009. > * > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Oct 28 13:13:31 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 13:13:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Louise Gluck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0332DCC2452C4C46A39FEA47E04DEDF7@BobHP> From: Skip Fox Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 12:09 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Louise Gluck No fan of Gluck by far (I usually think of her work as a warm bath if that), but this was somewhat better than I expected. I found it lame?all the insightfulness of a conventional genre novelist trying to show his understanding of the human psychology in between his action scenes. Dang, how I wish I had time to do an anthology of a hundred of poems at this level by anthologist-beloved contemporary American poets called ?Pretty Bad Poems? with detailed commentary on why each is bad. Okay, not really bad, just not worthy of being in any serious anthology of superior poems. Another idea: twenty contemporary American poems selected by the editors of Poetry and/or David Lehman as major and twenty by me, with one from each set paired with one of the other set; the idea would be that I would argue why my selection was better than the poem it was paired with, and some distinguished critic could argue the reverse. The editors of Poetry would never dare get involved in a project like that. Nor would Lehman. They wouldn?t want to dignify a lout like I by debating with him. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Fri Oct 28 13:13:31 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 10:13:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] GOODREADS MONTHLY BOOK CLUB - November Message-ID: <1319822011.31245.YahooMailNeo@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> We're pleased to announce that we have created a monthly book club for the group, complete with four suggested readings and "mini reviews" by ?Poetry! members Wendy Brown-Baez, Tichaona Chinyelu, Ruth Goring and Dan Simmons! Feel free to join in, add your replies and make your own suggestions in the comments field of the folder linked below. Please find this month's suggestions here - http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/696222-goodreads-monthly-poetry-book-club-november-2011 Cheers, Amy ********* Amy's Alias +?http://amyking.org/? ******** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Fri Oct 28 13:15:20 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 10:15:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Call for Work - 4 days left: Esque: The Revolution Issue - call for submissions Message-ID: <1319822120.48231.YahooMailNeo@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Reminder: you have four days left to submit to the revolutionary new issue of Esque. Do it now. We are your microphone. ? OCTOBER 1-31 ESQUEMAG at GMAIL.COM REVOLUTIONIZE ESQUE! the only war is the war?against the imagination?-Diane di Prima ? ESQUE: a journal of poetry and manifesto?(http://www.esquemag.com)?is opening submissions for our third issue:?REVOLUTIONESQUE. From October 1 to October 31, please send your revolutionary poems, manifestos, and multimedia pieces to: esquemag at gmail.com . We won't define what we mean by "revolution," whether it starts in your home, in the financial district, or in the district of your heart: YOU define your revolution and tell US what it is. ? REVOLUTIONESQUE?will also feature a special section of poems & videos by Naropa University students. ? yours, ? Amy King and Ana BozicevicEditors ? ********* Amy's Alias +?http://amyking.org/? ******** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Oct 28 13:21:31 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 13:21:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Louise Gluck In-Reply-To: <1319821563.81568.YahooMailNeo@web120525.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1319821563.81568.YahooMailNeo@web120525.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <646E5B9E426542B7820B17E47AB6D7E7@BobHP> From: John Jeffrey Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 1:06 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Louise Gluck I'm with you, David. And it's not just Gl?ck, there are tons of poems like this being written. (Keillor seems to like them, too, since I can often barely get through the poems he chooses.) You say you weren't dazzled by the craft. I don't see any craft, no poetic nuance at all, other than line breaks. It reads like a first draft, like a thought written down to be worked up into a poem at some later date. Aw, come on, John?what about ?the little dark head?? (Hey, I liked it. For the reason I actually weep at the most puerile manipulations of the many easy-reading novelists I read. Griffin, for instance, when showing a corporal who got in trouble for acting on common sense triumphing over the tight-assed by-the-rules captain proven wrong.) --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 13:25:19 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 12:25:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Louise Gluck In-Reply-To: <0332DCC2452C4C46A39FEA47E04DEDF7@BobHP> References: <0332DCC2452C4C46A39FEA47E04DEDF7@BobHP> Message-ID: Here's to not dignifying a lout like B-bob. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 12:13 PM, bob grumman wrote: > > > *From:* Skip Fox > *Sent:* Friday, October 28, 2011 12:09 PM > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Louise Gluck > > No fan of Gluck by far (I usually think of her work as a warm bath if > that), but this was somewhat better than I expected. > > I found it lame?all the insightfulness of a conventional genre novelist > trying to show his understanding of the human psychology in between his > action scenes. Dang, how I wish I had time to do an anthology of a hundred > of poems at this level by anthologist-beloved contemporary American poets > called ?Pretty Bad Poems? with detailed commentary on why each is bad. > Okay, not really bad, just not worthy of being in any serious anthology of > superior poems. Another idea: twenty contemporary American poems selected > by the editors of *Poetry* and/or David Lehman as major and twenty by me, > with one from each set paired with one of the other set; the idea would be > that I would argue why my selection was better than the poem it was paired > with, and some distinguished critic could argue the reverse. The editors of > *Poetry* would never dare get involved in a project like that. Nor would > Lehman. They wouldn?t want to dignify a lout like I by debating with him. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Oct 28 13:38:27 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 13:38:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: References: <2028F2E9570A4FC0BF891E64095C5644@BobHP> Message-ID: <31D4DB3D5F25410F8A16A8788B6D3FA8@BobHP> From: David Weinstock Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2011 5:44 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 5:26 PM, Mycroft wrote: > > . The editors of POETRY will find little in it, or not in it, to complain about?which is proof of how bad it is.? Mark this day, my friends. Mycroft has just this moment attained a new and unprecented level of vaunting ignorance. Not only does he review books he has not read, he has now reviewed a not-yet-written, yet-unpublished review of a book he has not read. Can he top that? More to the point, can he bottom it? Stay tuned. Fascinating how so many who post to the Internet attack someone with no supporting evidence for what they are attacking him for, then when the attacked person demonstrates in a reply how stupid their attack is, disappear?until the attacked person says something else intelligent that they can attack. You are clearly not worth bothering with, David. I have to point out, though, that I have never reviewed a book I haven?t read, only expressed opinions of books I have not read. --Bob . -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Oct 28 13:44:21 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 13:44:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse In-Reply-To: <4D0490AA-4890-4614-9E41-2684EE6E8262@ripon.edu> References: <8CE62D772F9AB4C-1E54-7BCC9@webmail-d018.sys ops.aol.com><29F9982F237D4D96B082810F3B06D1ED@BobHP><8CE6307B4F9D2F6-1E54-81BD0@webmail-d018.sysops.aol.com> <4D0490AA-4890-4614-9E41-2684EE6E8262@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <0E34ABD1ABAC40EDA7B7CF5CBB622112@BobHP> From: David Graham Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 1:12 AM To: NewPoetry List Subject: [New-Poetry] Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse I've read Miller Williams and he's a solid poet. I have nothing against him or his work. But there is something more than a little skewed in producing a survey of 20th Century American verse that omits hugely influential figures like Sylvia Plath and Allen Ginsberg while including poets like Miller Williams, Laurie Sheck, and William Meredith, who just aren't in the same league in terms of poetic footprints on the 20th Century. Obviously Dove made some effort to be inclusive, sampling figures from various camps and schools; and she made a largely successful effort to represent poets of color better than many mainstream anthologies have. In that context, though, if you're going to represent the Beat Generation, why on earth include Corso and Ferlingetti but not Ginsberg? Does she seriously believe either of them are a) better or b) more important to poetry than Ginsberg? I just don't get it. Haw, you?re making a distinction I?ve been arguing for, for quite a while, David. I think Ferlingetti is better than Ginsberg, but not as important, Corso neither better nor as important (but pretty good) Bottom line for me, though, is that at least she has members of Ginsberg?s school represented. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Fri Oct 28 13:52:05 2011 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 12:52:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Expressive Message-ID: <156B8B2C-818C-499D-879E-9A652F89BBB3@ripon.edu> ...only expressed opinions of books I have not read. --Bob =================. Well, it IS a time saver.... =================== David Graham Grahamd at ripon.edu Home page: http://web.me.com/drjazz ==================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Oct 28 14:02:44 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 14:02:44 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Louise Gluck In-Reply-To: References: < 0332DCC2452C4C46A39FEA47E04DEDF7@BobHP> Message-ID: From: Halvard Johnson Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 1:25 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Louise Gluck Here's to not dignifying a lout like B-bob. And just whom is you not dignify me!!!? --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Oct 28 14:07:00 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 14:07:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Expressive In-Reply-To: <156B8B2C-818C-499D-879E-9A652F89BBB3@ripon.edu> References: <156B8B2C-818C-499D-879E-9A652F89BBB3@ripon.edu> Message-ID: From: Graham, David Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 1:52 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Expressive ...only expressed opinions of books I have not read. --Bob Good catch, David. In context my too hastily written expression is clear, but I prefer better use of words even in the rough drafts I post to New-Poetry. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Oct 28 15:55:35 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 15:55:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stephen Russell's Dilemma In-Reply-To: <6730831.1319814955356.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <6730831.1319814955356.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <8B66B30A10CA4B7CAF1C9F28453A9E9F@BobHP> Stephen Russell is having Internet trouble. The following explains it: "Jesus, all of my work is saved on poet_in_hell_files ... this is a nightmare ... i've passed the first 24 hr security lockout ... we're into another 12 hrs ... seriously,Bob, could you post a help request on new poetry ... & if there are any replies ... could you facebook the reply, or email me @ poet_in_hell at yahoo.com? My old email (with the important info) has the word files after the hell. Problem: sadly, i couldn't answer the 1st security question when I tried to change my password. Misspelling ... or did i get lazy when i originally completed the security questions. Instead of poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com, I'm using my other yahoo ... nearly the same, except for the word files ... poet_in_hell at yahoo.com. I can't lose all of that work. I sure there's some solution. I've been combing the internet ... Still, my anxiety is horrible ... I guess my work is safe during the lockout." I?ve had problems like this but can?t remember how I solved them. I think I didn?t know how I was solving them when I did. Is there anyone who can help? I believe you can use the following to contact him. Otherwise. post to the group and I;?ll try to relay what you say. notification+o0cty999 at facebookmail.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Oct 28 15:59:28 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 15:59:28 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] The poets in Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse Message-ID: <13018867.1319831968742.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Fri Oct 28 22:44:12 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 21:44:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Message-ID: Having learned the line/fetish essay was being discussed here, and having read some of the comments about it in your archives, I thought I could subscribe to New-Poetry and clarify what was meant in the essay. Hope that's okay. This might be a nice chance to do so, since the editors of that anthology only gave the solicited contributors 750 words to convey something insightful about "the line." Not easy. I took about 730 words. Not much room for nuanced explanation, barely room for frank assertion. By saying that the line is not a feature of poetry I wasn't suggesting lines aren't found in poems, nor was I making any assertions about prose poetry versus metrical or free verse. The essay doesn't suggest the line should be abolished or that it originated with Modernists or fascists etc. Nor was I criticizing any particular kind of line (eg, metrical, as was suggested) or the notion of the linebreak. The essay is mostly making the assertion that whatever the technical phenomena are that get called "the line" at any particular point in literary history (eg, hypertrophic lines associated w/ strophic verse, prose lines, iambic pentameter, this or that technical description), such arguments (1) really do not matter in any way extrinsic to specifically disciplinary concerns, and (2) any ways that they *do* matter specific to disciplinary concerns are really meaningless in terms of the wider, and very dire, issues facing our collective human and animal future, which I start talking about later on in the essay. A basic concern of the essay is that poetry often gets defined merely by, from, or through its technical features. I might cite, as an example of this, Bill (whom I admire, btw) saying "The line IS poetry." An unspoken, but hopefully not too implicit part of the essay, is my conviction that whatever poetry is, it is larger than its technical debates, attempted definitions, and its ostensible "parts" (like line, rhythm, sound -- all of which are merely guesses at conceptualizing something we don't really understand). The guesses and debates are their own thing; the thing we don't understand is something else -- hence my admittedly rebarbative assertion that the line is not a feature of poetry. "The line" is something we pretend to understand and make distinctions and assertions about. While poetry is something we don't understand altogether. *The basic point the essay makes is that whatever poetry is, and whatever its minor (and at times cataclysmic-seeming) technical debates and disagreements, poetry (both mainstream and experimental/avant-garde/innovative) has had, since the early 20th century in the US (and the late 19th century in France), more of an interest in its own debates about technique and technicalities than an interest in seeing itself as a mode of reparative ethical action.* And I'm trying to suggest that the former blinds us to the possibilities of the latter. There is an institutional tendency to focus on and debate poetry's technical features and ignore poetry's wider potential role as mode of ethical and political reparative action. I really think issues about the line are not worth debating or making books about. Too much other work to be done with our energies. *The real concern of my essay (and this post) is not the line or these debates, but the fact that we are living through the 6th largest extinction of animals (and possibly our own) in the nature record.* I was given 750 words to disagree with the premise of the anthology for which I'd been solicited. Because of limited word count, figured I should use a provocative tone. :) Anyway, thanks for letting me stick my nose in the door here and say hi.... :) Gabe PS, in case you'd like to see what I meant by the larger issues and work before us, it's found here: http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_broken_thing.php -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Fri Oct 28 22:57:36 2011 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 19:57:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1319857056.35681.YahooMailNeo@web160114.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Welcome, Gabe! As stated here earlier by a number of us, there's a great deal of esteem here for your work, and you'll be perhaps relieved to know that all were quite conscious that a mere blurb-sized excerpt was likely not enough to judge an argument. Although I think there are indirect ways in which preoccupation with form connects to the ethical concerns you mention, just as I am reciprocally a bit skeptical toward the claims made for poetry in the name of ethics, which often appears to me as a decidedly meek version of the Romantic ideal of transformative literature (ie, poetry transforms individuals if not "the World", which is just a way of setting one's sights a great deal lower than originally intended, while claiming that the fundamental ambition hasn't changed). I think about technical matters; you've read Caramboles; am I unconcerned by the future of humanity? I'm not sure. On the other hand, I wouldn't make an anthology on the line either. Welcome to NewPo, in any event. Try not to scuffle with Bob and Halvard, and be nice to Anny, Jim (aka Finnegan) and Amy (King), and you'll be just fine. And when people quote Frost...let them ;) Amicalement, Alex ? www.alexdickow.net/blog/ ? les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ________________________________ From: gabriel gudding To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 10:44 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Having learned the line/fetish essay was being discussed here, and having read some of the comments about it in your archives, I thought I could subscribe to New-Poetry and clarify what was meant in the essay. Hope that's okay. This might be a nice chance to do so, since the editors of that anthology only gave the solicited contributors 750 words to convey something insightful about "the line." Not easy. I took about 730 words. Not much room for nuanced explanation, barely room for frank assertion. By saying that the line is not a feature of poetry I wasn't suggesting lines aren't found in poems, nor was I making any assertions about prose poetry versus metrical or free verse.? The essay doesn't suggest the line should be abolished or that it originated with Modernists or fascists etc. Nor was I criticizing any particular kind of line (eg, metrical, as was suggested) or the notion of the linebreak.? The essay is mostly making the assertion that whatever the technical phenomena are that get called "the line" at any particular point in literary history (eg, hypertrophic lines associated w/ strophic verse, prose lines, iambic pentameter, this or that technical description), such arguments (1) really do not matter in any way extrinsic to specifically disciplinary concerns, and (2) any ways that they do?matter specific to disciplinary concerns are really meaningless in terms of the wider, and very dire, issues facing our collective human and animal future, which I start talking about later on in the essay. A basic concern of the essay is that poetry often gets defined merely by, from, or through its technical features. I might cite, as an example of this, Bill (whom I admire, btw) saying "The line IS poetry."? An unspoken, but hopefully not too implicit part of the essay, is my conviction that whatever poetry is, it is larger than its technical debates, attempted definitions, and its ostensible "parts" (like line, rhythm, sound -- all of which are merely guesses at conceptualizing something we don't really understand). The guesses and debates are their own thing; the thing we don't understand is something else -- hence my admittedly rebarbative assertion that the line is not a feature of poetry. "The line" is something we pretend to understand and make distinctions and assertions about. While poetry is something we don't understand altogether.? *The basic point the essay makes is that whatever poetry is, and whatever its minor (and at times cataclysmic-seeming) technical debates and disagreements, poetry (both mainstream and experimental/avant-garde/innovative) has had, since the early 20th century in the US (and the late 19th century in France), more of an interest in its own debates about technique and technicalities than an interest in seeing itself as a mode of reparative ethical action.*? And I'm trying to suggest that the former blinds us to the possibilities of the latter. There is an institutional tendency to focus on and debate poetry's technical features and ignore poetry's wider potential role as mode of ethical and political reparative action. I really think issues about the line are not worth debating or making books about. Too much other work to be done with our energies.? *The real concern of my essay (and this post) is not the line or these debates, but the fact that we are living through the 6th largest extinction of animals (and possibly our own) in the nature record.* I was given 750 words to disagree with the premise of the anthology for which I'd been solicited. Because of limited word count, figured I should use a provocative tone. :) Anyway, thanks for letting me stick my nose in the door here and say hi.... :) Gabe PS, in case you'd like to see what I meant by the larger issues and work before us, it's found here:?http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_broken_thing.php _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu Fri Oct 28 23:51:21 2011 From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan) Date: Fri, 28 Oct 2011 22:51:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <063f01cc95ee$0ca92af0$25fb80d0$@ilstu.edu> A basic concern of the essay is that poetry often gets defined merely by, from, or through its technical features. I might cite, as an example of this, Bill (whom I admire, btw) saying "The line IS poetry." Hi, Gabe- Just to clarify: it was not I who wrote that "The line IS poetry." That was Bob. I was trying with all my small might to argue against that position. Welcome! Bill Morgan From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of gabriel gudding Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 9:44 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Having learned the line/fetish essay was being discussed here, and having read some of the comments about it in your archives, I thought I could subscribe to New-Poetry and clarify what was meant in the essay. Hope that's okay. This might be a nice chance to do so, since the editors of that anthology only gave the solicited contributors 750 words to convey something insightful about "the line." Not easy. I took about 730 words. Not much room for nuanced explanation, barely room for frank assertion. By saying that the line is not a feature of poetry I wasn't suggesting lines aren't found in poems, nor was I making any assertions about prose poetry versus metrical or free verse. The essay doesn't suggest the line should be abolished or that it originated with Modernists or fascists etc. Nor was I criticizing any particular kind of line (eg, metrical, as was suggested) or the notion of the linebreak. The essay is mostly making the assertion that whatever the technical phenomena are that get called "the line" at any particular point in literary history (eg, hypertrophic lines associated w/ strophic verse, prose lines, iambic pentameter, this or that technical description), such arguments (1) really do not matter in any way extrinsic to specifically disciplinary concerns, and (2) any ways that they do matter specific to disciplinary concerns are really meaningless in terms of the wider, and very dire, issues facing our collective human and animal future, which I start talking about later on in the essay. A basic concern of the essay is that poetry often gets defined merely by, from, or through its technical features. I might cite, as an example of this, Bill (whom I admire, btw) saying "The line IS poetry." An unspoken, but hopefully not too implicit part of the essay, is my conviction that whatever poetry is, it is larger than its technical debates, attempted definitions, and its ostensible "parts" (like line, rhythm, sound -- all of which are merely guesses at conceptualizing something we don't really understand). The guesses and debates are their own thing; the thing we don't understand is something else -- hence my admittedly rebarbative assertion that the line is not a feature of poetry. "The line" is something we pretend to understand and make distinctions and assertions about. While poetry is something we don't understand altogether. *The basic point the essay makes is that whatever poetry is, and whatever its minor (and at times cataclysmic-seeming) technical debates and disagreements, poetry (both mainstream and experimental/avant-garde/innovative) has had, since the early 20th century in the US (and the late 19th century in France), more of an interest in its own debates about technique and technicalities than an interest in seeing itself as a mode of reparative ethical action.* And I'm trying to suggest that the former blinds us to the possibilities of the latter. There is an institutional tendency to focus on and debate poetry's technical features and ignore poetry's wider potential role as mode of ethical and political reparative action. I really think issues about the line are not worth debating or making books about. Too much other work to be done with our energies. *The real concern of my essay (and this post) is not the line or these debates, but the fact that we are living through the 6th largest extinction of animals (and possibly our own) in the nature record.* I was given 750 words to disagree with the premise of the anthology for which I'd been solicited. Because of limited word count, figured I should use a provocative tone. :) Anyway, thanks for letting me stick my nose in the door here and say hi.... :) Gabe PS, in case you'd like to see what I meant by the larger issues and work before us, it's found here: http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_broken_thing.php -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Oct 29 05:57:00 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 05:57:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The poets in Penguin Anthology of 20th CenturyVerse In-Reply-To: References: <2028F2E9570A4FC0BF891E64095C5644@BobHP><1319756356.67510.Yahoo MailNeo@web120526.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Seems to me the best earlier twentieth century poets are substantially superior to the best later ones (to return to another topic often discussed here). At least five of my top ten certified poets in English ever are among the earlier ones, none of the later ones is. I?ve read almost all the earlier poets in the book but am unfamiliar with the work of many of the later ones, so can?t be sure. Although, yes, I can make inferences about them based on the identity of editor and publisher, and of the poets chosen whose work I?m familiar with. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Oct 29 06:46:00 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 06:46:00 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The poets in Penguin Anthology of 20th CenturyVerse In-Reply-To: References: <2028F2E9570A4FC0BF891E64095C5644@BobHP><1319756356.67510.Yahoo MailNeo@web120526.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9D1BA98422F34A90B6AAF722655FECC6@BobHP> From: bob grumman Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 5:57 AM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The poets in Penguin Anthology of 20th CenturyVerse Correction before David pounces: Seems to me the best earlier twentieth century poets are substantially superior to the best later ones (to return to another topic often discussed here). At least five of my top ten certified poets in English ever are among the earlier ones, none is among the later ones. I?ve read almost all the earlier poets in the book but am unfamiliar with the work of many of the later ones, so can?t be sure. Although, yes, I can make inferences about them based on the identity of editor and publisher, and of the poets chosen whose work I?m familiar with. --Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From millb at aol.com Sat Oct 29 07:42:55 2011 From: millb at aol.com (Millicent Borges Accardi) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 07:42:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Louise Gluck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CE6447085AEE8F-1938-EB551@webmail-d173.sysops.aol.com> David, It reminded me of "The Yellow Wallpaper." To be fair, I did not feel "moved" or enlightened by this poem either, although I did hang in there (no pun intended) and was kept waiting for an important something to arrive at the end, and, when it never did, I was not surprised. As even more of a "pile up," gosh, I hope I do NOT sound like this when I write! Millicent -----Original Message----- From: Skip Fox To: NewPoetry List Sent: Fri, Oct 28, 2011 9:37 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Louise Gluck No fan of Gluck by far (I usually think of her work as a warm bath if that), but this was somewhat better than I expected. The last two stanzas make me think she may have a section of Goldsmith's "Deserted Village" in mind, and they do have a sense of emptiness in presence which reverses his work. (Or is reading anything prior to Ella Wheeler Wilcox foreign to her?) On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 10:51 AM, David Graham wrote: As a break from complaining about anthologies, I thought I'd read some individual poems, and complain about them. For example, I have never quite understood Louise Gluck's appeal as a poet, and certainly not the awe in which she is held by so many readers I respect. I recognize she can craft an image, and is clearly a "good" poet. But many of her poems just seem flat and talky, and often melodramatic. Most of all, though, I just don't recognize her world, I suppose. The following poem just appeared in my in-box courtesy of Garrison Keillor. I read it twice, and never once did I think "that's insightful" or "I never thought of things that way." Nor was I dazzled by the craft in any way. Instead, I found myself wondering if anyone outside the realm of literature actually thinks and talks in this way. In addition to falling pretty flat to my ears, this poem sounds stagey in the worst way. I simply don't buy either the woman or the man as characters. I'm not particularly interested in a Gluck pile-on, though I realize I've opened the door to it, as well as to dark comments about my own taste. I'm more interested in knowing if anyone who loves her work can articulate the appeal of a poem such as this one. In the Plaza For two weeks he's been watching the same girl, someone he sees in the plaza. In her twenties maybe, drinking coffee in the afternoon, the little dark head bent over a magazine. He watches from across the square, pretending to be buying something, cigarettes, maybe a bouquet of flowers. Because she doesn't know it exists, her power is very great now, fused to the needs of his imagination. He is her prisoner. She says the words he gives her in a voice he imagines, low-pitched and soft, a voice from the south as the dark hair must be from the south. Soon she will recognize him, then begin to expect him. And perhaps then every day her hair will be freshly washed, she will gaze outward across the plaza before looking down. and after that they will become lovers. But he hopes this will not happen immediately since whatever power she exerts now over his body, over his emotions, she will have no power once she commits herself? she will withdraw into that private world of feeling women enter when they love. And living there, she will become like a person who casts no shadow, who is not present in the world; in that sense, so little use to him it hardly matters whether she lives or dies. --Louise Gl?ck. A Village Life. Farrar, Straus & Giroux, 2009. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Oct 29 08:19:15 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 08:19:15 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] The poets in Penguin Anthology of 20th CenturyVerse In-Reply-To: References: <2028F2E9570A4FC0BF891E64095C5644@BobHP><1319756356.67510.Yahoo MailNeo@web120526.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <155D9D4ABDB6438B90F09E9B8BD3EA9E@BobHP> Amusing that Maya Angelou didn?t make it?the only black female poet with a following comparable to Dove?s. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 08:19:52 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 14:19:52 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Louise Gluck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I like Gluck's voice. I think it is something you feel or you do not. What she says is right, similar to Leopardi in this context - just to mention a monster in poetry. The fact that when the event - onto which you have projected your highest expectations and hopes - (for Leopardi when Sunday - the free day, the day to celebrate arrives; and for Gluck the fact that people are in love as long as it is not allowed them to love: thus depicting the fundamental paradox that leads to isolation) finally happens, the protagonists can't but be disappointed, be it by the same event or by the realization that their idealistic projection is out of order. On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 5:51 PM, David Graham wrote: > As a break from complaining about anthologies, I thought I'd read some > individual poems, and complain about them. > > For example, I have never quite understood Louise Gluck's appeal as a > poet, and certainly not the awe in which she is held by so many readers I > respect. I recognize she can craft an image, and is clearly a "good" poet. > But many of her poems just seem flat and talky, and often melodramatic. > > Most of all, though, I just don't recognize her world, I suppose. The > following poem just appeared in my in-box courtesy of Garrison Keillor. I > read it twice, and never once did I think "that's insightful" or "I never > thought of things that way." Nor was I dazzled by the craft in any way. > Instead, I found myself wondering if anyone outside the realm of literature > actually thinks and talks in this way. In addition to falling pretty flat > to my ears, this poem sounds stagey in the worst way. I simply don't buy > either the woman or the man as characters. > > I'm not particularly interested in a Gluck pile-on, though I realize I've > opened the door to it, as well as to dark comments about my own taste. I'm > more interested in knowing if anyone who loves her work can articulate the > appeal of a poem such as this one. > > > * > In the Plaza > > For two weeks he's been watching the same girl, > someone he sees in the plaza. In her twenties maybe, > drinking coffee in the afternoon, the little dark head > bent over a magazine. > He watches from across the square, pretending > to be buying something, cigarettes, maybe a bouquet of flowers. > > Because she doesn't know it exists, > her power is very great now, fused to the needs of his imagination. > He is her prisoner. She says the words he gives her > in a voice he imagines, low-pitched and soft, > a voice from the south as the dark hair must be from the south. > > Soon she will recognize him, then begin to expect him. > And perhaps then every day her hair will be freshly washed, > she will gaze outward across the plaza before looking down. > and after that they will become lovers. > > But he hopes this will not happen immediately > since whatever power she exerts now over his body, over his emotions, > she will have no power once she commits herself? > > she will withdraw into that private world of feeling > women enter when they love. And living there, she will become > like a person who casts no shadow, who is not present in the world; > in that sense, so little use to him > it hardly matters whether she lives or dies. > > --Louise Gl?ck. A Village Life. Farrar, Straus & Giroux, 2009. > * > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 12:52:12 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 11:52:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <1319857056.35681.YahooMailNeo@web160114.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1319857056.35681.YahooMailNeo@web160114.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Bill, sorry for the mix-up. Alex, I understand the pleasure in using a blurb-sized excerpt to stimulate conversation. Maybe that's partly what blurbs are for: give people something to argue about. In part, that's my point. Art is often more of an activity of making distinctions internal to art -- in order to distinguish oneself, one's school, or one's viewpoint, or as a testimony of one's taste -- than in doing something else, finding pleasure in something else (am thinking here of the work of Pierre Bourdieu, for instance, specifically The Field of Cultural Production). By which I'm not saying the discussion of the blurb wasn't trying to do something useful. Just that there is a tendency to struggle for distinction using features that, over time, become more and more technical. Regarding yr response to the point about ethical & political reparative action as an important component of poetry/literature: I understand your concern there; there is a history of debate about it. My concern is less with what you call the future of humanity and more with the reality of how we are treating animals now. This is the 6th largest mass extinction in the natural record. And we are strangely unaware of this -- and if aware we are on the whole apathetic. Directly related to this mass extinction is the factory farming of animals. It is the single largest factor in global warming, directly related to a meat-based diet. Humans kill about 60 billion animals each year for their meat, 10 billion annually in the US alone. We need, for instance, to stop eating animals. And we need to begin awakening our own capacities for loving-kindness -- extending that mindstate into the realities of our own diet, our own taste for meat. If someone can't stop altogether, then just eat half of what was eaten before. The next year, eat half of that. Poems and essays and conversations that help widen our understanding of subjectivity and awaken our empathy to include animals as individuals who should be accorded bodily and mental sovereignty, whose lives and relationships matter to them and because of that should matter to us -- matter to the point where we stop eating them -- is one example of the kinds of poems & debates I can get behind. That is a worthwhile project, to my mind. Anthologies debating and making statements about the line strike me as a waste of resources and time -- unless they contain some excoriation of the myopia historically endemic to art and a reminder there is a world of suffering out there beyond our technical myopia. Certainly it's possible to do both. Literary history suggests however that technical concerns tend to so stimulate people into delusional struggles that they forget about other stuff. (Am thinking, re this last assertion, of the work, again, of Pierre Bourdieu and to some extent Jed Rasula). On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 9:57 PM, Alexander Dickow wrote: > Welcome, Gabe! As stated here earlier by a number of us, there's a great > deal of esteem here for your work, and you'll be perhaps relieved to know > that all were quite conscious that a mere blurb-sized excerpt was likely not > enough to judge an argument. Although I think there are indirect ways in > which preoccupation with form connects to the ethical concerns you mention, > just as I am reciprocally a bit skeptical toward the claims made for poetry > in the name of ethics, which often appears to me as a decidedly meek version > of the Romantic ideal of transformative literature (ie, poetry transforms > individuals if not "the World", which is just a way of setting one's sights > a great deal lower than originally intended, while claiming that the > fundamental ambition hasn't changed). > I think about technical matters; you've read Caramboles; am I unconcerned > by the future of humanity? I'm not sure. On the other hand, I wouldn't make > an anthology on the line either. > Welcome to NewPo, in any event. Try not to scuffle with Bob and Halvard, > and be nice to Anny, Jim (aka Finnegan) and Amy (King), and you'll be just > fine. And when people quote Frost...let them ;) > Amicalement, > Alex > > www.alexdickow.net/blog/ > > les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin > merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet > > ------------------------------ > *From:* gabriel gudding > *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > *Sent:* Friday, October 28, 2011 10:44 PM > *Subject:* [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > Having learned the line/fetish essay was being discussed here, and having > read some of the comments about it in your archives, I thought I could > subscribe to New-Poetry and clarify what was meant in the essay. Hope that's > okay. > > This might be a nice chance to do so, since the editors of that anthology > only gave the solicited contributors 750 words to convey something > insightful about "the line." Not easy. I took about 730 words. Not much room > for nuanced explanation, barely room for frank assertion. > > By saying that the line is not a feature of poetry I wasn't suggesting > lines aren't found in poems, nor was I making any assertions about prose > poetry versus metrical or free verse. > > The essay doesn't suggest the line should be abolished or that it > originated with Modernists or fascists etc. Nor was I criticizing any > particular kind of line (eg, metrical, as was suggested) or the notion of > the linebreak. > > The essay is mostly making the assertion that whatever the technical > phenomena are that get called "the line" at any particular point in literary > history (eg, hypertrophic lines associated w/ strophic verse, prose lines, > iambic pentameter, this or that technical description), such arguments (1) > really do not matter in any way extrinsic to specifically disciplinary > concerns, and (2) any ways that they *do* matter specific to disciplinary > concerns are really meaningless in terms of the wider, and very dire, issues > facing our collective human and animal future, which I start talking about > later on in the essay. > > A basic concern of the essay is that poetry often gets defined merely by, > from, or through its technical features. I might cite, as an example of > this, Bill (whom I admire, btw) saying "The line IS poetry." > > An unspoken, but hopefully not too implicit part of the essay, is my > conviction that whatever poetry is, it is larger than its technical debates, > attempted definitions, and its ostensible "parts" (like line, rhythm, sound > -- all of which are merely guesses at conceptualizing something we don't > really understand). The guesses and debates are their own thing; the thing > we don't understand is something else -- hence my admittedly rebarbative > assertion that the line is not a feature of poetry. "The line" is something > we pretend to understand and make distinctions and assertions about. While > poetry is something we don't understand altogether. > > *The basic point the essay makes is that whatever poetry is, and whatever > its minor (and at times cataclysmic-seeming) technical debates and > disagreements, poetry (both mainstream and > experimental/avant-garde/innovative) has had, since the early 20th century > in the US (and the late 19th century in France), more of an interest in its > own debates about technique and technicalities than an interest in seeing > itself as a mode of reparative ethical action.* > > And I'm trying to suggest that the former blinds us to the possibilities of > the latter. There is an institutional tendency to focus on and debate > poetry's technical features and ignore poetry's wider potential role as mode > of ethical and political reparative action. I really think issues about the > line are not worth debating or making books about. Too much other work to be > done with our energies. > > *The real concern of my essay (and this post) is not the line or these > debates, but the fact that we are living through the 6th largest extinction > of animals (and possibly our own) in the nature record.* > > I was given 750 words to disagree with the premise of the anthology for > which I'd been solicited. Because of limited word count, figured I should > use a provocative tone. :) > > Anyway, thanks for letting me stick my nose in the door here and say hi.... > :) > > Gabe > PS, in case you'd like to see what I meant by the larger issues and work > before us, it's found here: > http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_broken_thing.php > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Oct 29 13:18:51 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 13:18:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Reminder: Wallace Stevens Birthday Bash Sat. Nov. 5, 'Pinsky Reads Stevens', Hartford Public Library In-Reply-To: <8CE64682F6E84D8-EC0-9789D@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE6467FB069350-EC0-97878@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> <8CE64682F6E84D8-EC0-9789D@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CE6475F64027D5-DA8-D6D89@Webmail-d110.sysops.aol.com> If you are near Hartford... SIXTEENTH ANNUAL WALLACE STEVENS BIRTHDAY BASH ROBERT PINSKY READS WALLACE STEVENS Saturday November 5, 2011, 6:30PM Hartford Public Library Robert Pinsky, one of America's foremost poets and critics, served as Poet Laureate of the United States from 1997-2000. He is the author of many books of poetry and criticism, most recently Selected Poems (Farrar Straus and Giroux, 2011). This festive and illuminating event will begin with a reception serving wine and hors d?oeuvres, and following Mr. Pinsky?s presentation, the program will conclude with a book signing, birthday cake and champagne! Tickets are $50 per person, payable to ?Hartford Public Library?. Hartford Public Library 500 Main Street Hartford CT, 06103 Or purchase tickets online at www.wallacestevens.eventbrite.com Or you may reserve your tickets at the door, by contacting Marian Amodeo mamodeo at hplct.org 860-695-6296 For more information, contact: Jim Finnegan jforjames at aol.com 860-508-2810 This event is presented by Connecticut Center for the Book at Hartford Public Library and The Friends & Enemies of Wallace Stevens www.stevenspoetry.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Oct 29 13:37:52 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 13:37:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Louise Gluck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CE64789EA475A9-DA8-D7399@Webmail-d110.sysops.aol.com> I liked her book Ararat quite a bit. Less thrilled since then. This one isn't that bad. Kind of reminds me a poem that Mark Strand might do better with though: The outlines of a short story or a foreign film that could at any moment shift into the surreal or go gothic... Because she doesn't know it exists, her power is very great now, fused to the needs of his imagination. He is her prisoner. But it needs some more close-ups; and less philosophical voice-over. It's snowing here in central Connecticut; big heavy flakes of snow coming down. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Skip Fox To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sat, Oct 29, 2011 4:37 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Louise Gluck No fan of Gluck by far (I usually think of her work as a warm bath if that), but this was somewhat better than I expected. The last two stanzas make me think she may have a section of Goldsmith's "Deserted Village" in mind, and they do have a sense of emptiness in presence which reverses his work. (Or is reading anything prior to Ella Wheeler Wilcox foreign to her?) On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 10:51 AM, David Graham wrote: As a break from complaining about anthologies, I thought I'd read some individual poems, and complain about them. For example, I have never quite understood Louise Gluck's appeal as a poet, and certainly not the awe in which she is held by so many readers I respect. I recognize she can craft an image, and is clearly a "good" poet. But many of her poems just seem flat and talky, and often melodramatic. Most of all, though, I just don't recognize her world, I suppose. The following poem just appeared in my in-box courtesy of Garrison Keillor. I read it twice, and never once did I think "that's insightful" or "I never thought of things that way." Nor was I dazzled by the craft in any way. Instead, I found myself wondering if anyone outside the realm of literature actually thinks and talks in this way. In addition to falling pretty flat to my ears, this poem sounds stagey in the worst way. I simply don't buy either the woman or the man as characters. I'm not particularly interested in a Gluck pile-on, though I realize I've opened the door to it, as well as to dark comments about my own taste. I'm more interested in knowing if anyone who loves her work can articulate the appeal of a poem such as this one. In the Plaza For two weeks he's been watching the same girl, someone he sees in the plaza. In her twenties maybe, drinking coffee in the afternoon, the little dark head bent over a magazine. He watches from across the square, pretending to be buying something, cigarettes, maybe a bouquet of flowers. Because she doesn't know it exists, her power is very great now, fused to the needs of his imagination. He is her prisoner. She says the words he gives her in a voice he imagines, low-pitched and soft, a voice from the south as the dark hair must be from the south. Soon she will recognize him, then begin to expect him. And perhaps then every day her hair will be freshly washed, she will gaze outward across the plaza before looking down. and after that they will become lovers. But he hopes this will not happen immediately since whatever power she exerts now over his body, over his emotions, she will have no power once she commits herself? she will withdraw into that private world of feeling women enter when they love. And living there, she will become like a person who casts no shadow, who is not present in the world; in that sense, so little use to him it hardly matters whether she lives or dies. --Louise Gl?ck. A Village Life. Farrar, Straus & Giroux, 2009. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Oct 29 13:40:26 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 13:40:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <063f01cc95ee$0ca92af0$25fb80d0$@ilstu.edu> References: <063f01cc95ee$0ca92af0$25fb80d0$@ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <72D364A7733A41B59A55F4F41327F7D5@BobHP> From: Bill Morgan Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 11:51 PM To: 'NewPoetry List' Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line A basic concern of the essay is that poetry often gets defined merely by, from, or through its technical features. I might cite, as an example of this, Bill (whom I admire, btw) saying "The line IS poetry." Hi, Gabe? Just to clarify: it was not I who wrote that ?The line IS poetry.? That was Bob. I was trying with all my small might to argue against that position. Welcome! Bill Morgan Right. I claim that to be able to communicate you need objectively to define your terms. If there?s any way other than determination of its objective material characteristics (or techniques) reasonably to define poetry, I?d like to hear about it. Simplicity of definite is a virtue, too. Defining poetry objectively as lines or line-equivalents is simple and works for everything reasonable people consider poetry to be except prose poems. It ought to work for prose poems, too, by ruling them prose, but nullinguists won?t allow it (because clearly-defined terms are useful only to people capable of rationality). The line, by the way, is not necessarily the most important feature of any poem, it is simply the key definitive detail of all poems. The only one, it seems to me. It?s what makes poems different from all texts which are not poems. I think Gabe is arguing about what poems are best used for, not about what they are. I?m not up to that: it?s too complexly subjective a matter for Internet discussion. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Oct 29 14:00:37 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 14:00:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Build your own TOC of 20C Po In-Reply-To: <1319756356.67510.YahooMailNeo@web120526.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <2028F2E9570A4FC0BF891E64095C5644@BobHP> <1319756356.67510.YahooMailNeo@web120526.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CE647BCBE87C0F-DA8-D7C5E@Webmail-d110.sysops.aol.com> You know what would be fun, for those who want to play: each-one-buld-one...you (grand anthologist) have 175 poets as your upper limit (you could select fewer), show us your table of contents. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: John Jeffrey To: NewPoetry List Sent: Thu, Oct 27, 2011 10:37 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] The poets in Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Verse Here's an alphabetized list of the 175 poets from the book as listed on the website referenced in a previous email. (I didn't correct the typos, so if..I mean, so when you find misspellings, blame the website author.) ----- Ai Elizabeth Alexander Sherman Alexie Donald All Paula Gunn Allen A.R. Ammons John Ashbery W. H. Auden Amiri Baraka (LeRoi Jones) Ted Berrigan John Berryman Frank Bidart Elizabeth Bishop Robert Bly Louise Bogan Gwendolyn Brooks Olga Broumas Hayden Carruth Lorna Dee Cervantes Marilyn Chin Sandra Cisneros Lucille Clifton Judith Ortiz Cofer Billy Collins Gregory Corso Hart Crane Robert Creeley Victor Hernandez Cruz Countee Cullen E. E. Cummings Carl Dennis Toi Derricotte James Dickey Stephen Dobyns Hilda Doolittle (H.D.) Mark Doty Rita Dove Norman Dubie Alan Dugan Paul Lawrence Dunbar Alice Moore Dunbar-Nelson Robert Duncan Stephen Dunn Cornelius Eady Russell Edson T. S. Eliot Louis Erdrich B.H. Fairchild Lawrence Ferlinghetti Annie Finch Nick Flynn Carolyn Forche Robert Francis Robert Frost Alice Fulton Tess Gallagher Albert Goldbarth Jorie Graham Angelina Weld Grimke Barbara Hamby Joy Harjo Michael S. Harper Robert Hass Robert Hayden Terrance Hayes Anthony Hecht Lyn Hejinian Garrett Hongo Marie Howe Andrew Hudgins Langston Hughes Richard Hugo Mark Jarman Randall Jarrell Robinson Jeffers James Weldon Johnson June Jordan Weldon Kees Brigit Pegeen Kelly Galway Kinnell Carolyn Kizer Joanna Klink Etheridge Knight Kenneth Koch Yusef Komunyakaa Maxine Kumin Stanley Kunitz Li-Young Lee Denise Levertove Philip Levine Larry Levis Audre Lorde Adrian C. Louis Amy Lowell Robert Lowell Thomas Lux Nathaniel Mackey Archibald MacLeish Haki R. Madhubuti (Don L. Lee) David Mason Edgar Lee Masters William Matthews Heather McHugh Claude McKay William Meredith James Merrill W. S. Merwin Jane Miller Marianne Moore Paul Muldoon Harryette Mullen Carol Muske-Dukes Marilyn Nelson Howard Nemerov Naomi Shihab Nye Frank O?Hara Sharon Olds Mary Oliver Charles Olson Gregory Orr Michael Palmer Carl Phillips Robert Pinsky Ezra Pound Dudley Randell Adrienne Rich Alberto Rios Edwin Arlington Robinson Theodore Roethke Muriel Rukeyser Kay Ryan Sonia Sanchez Carl Sandburg Delmore Schwartz Frederick Seidel Anne Sexton Brenda Shaughnessy Laurie Sheck Leslie Marmon Silko Charles Simic Louis Simpson Gary Snyder Cathy Song Gary Soto David St. John William Stafford A.E. Stallings Gertrude Stein Gerald Stern Wallace Stevens Susan Stewart Ron Stilliman Ruth Stone Mark Strand James Tate Henry Taylor Sara Teasdale Melvin B. Tolson Jean Toomer Natasha Trethewey Reetika Vazirani Diane Wakoski Derek Walcott Margaret Walker James Welch Roberta HIll Whiteman Richard Wilbur C. K. Williams Miller Williams William Carlos Williams C. D. Wright Charles Wright Franz Wright James Wright Kevin Young _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 14:14:28 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 13:14:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <72D364A7733A41B59A55F4F41327F7D5@BobHP> References: <063f01cc95ee$0ca92af0$25fb80d0$@ilstu.edu> <72D364A7733A41B59A55F4F41327F7D5@BobHP> Message-ID: Definitions are, by definition, non-objective. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 12:40 PM, bob grumman wrote: > > > *From:* Bill Morgan > *Sent:* Friday, October 28, 2011 11:51 PM > *To:* 'NewPoetry List' > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > > A basic concern of the essay is that poetry often gets defined merely by, > from, or through its technical features. I might cite, as an example of > this, Bill (whom I admire, btw) saying "The line IS poetry." **** > > **** > > Hi, Gabe?**** > > **** > > Just to clarify: it was not I who wrote that ?The line IS poetry.? That > was Bob. I was trying with all my small might to argue against that > position.**** > > **** > > Welcome!**** > > **** > > Bill Morgan > > > > Right. I claim that to be able to communicate you need objectively to > define your terms. If there?s any way other than determination of its > objective material characteristics (or techniques) reasonably to define > poetry, I?d like to hear about it. Simplicity of definite is a virtue, > too. Defining poetry objectively as lines or line-equivalents is simple and > works for everything reasonable people consider poetry to be except prose > poems. It ought to work for prose poems, too, by ruling them prose, but > nullinguists won?t allow it (because clearly-defined terms are useful only > to people capable of rationality). > > > > The line, by the way, is not necessarily the most important feature of any > poem, it is simply the key definitive detail of all poems. The only one, it > seems to me. It?s what makes poems different from all texts which are not > poems. I think Gabe is arguing about what poems are best used for, not > about what they are. I?m not up to that: it?s too complexly subjective a > matter for Internet discussion. > > > > --Bob > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sat Oct 29 14:23:56 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 14:23:56 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Message-ID: <31233210.1319912637267.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 14:55:51 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 13:55:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <31233210.1319912637267.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <31233210.1319912637267.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: We would use less arable land than we do now. I think the figures are 60% less. Will look. A good example of a poetry book that does this kind of work while still being brilliant poetry is Ariana Reines' _The Cow_ (Fence 2006). On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 1:23 PM, wrote: > If we all stopped eating animals the first necessity would be massive > slaughter, or all those gas-spewing beasts would destroy every bit of > vegetation on the planet. Thouigh I suuppose we could neuter them all, so > that after they've decimated the flora the surviving humans could begin > repopulating. > > -----Original Message----- > From: gabriel gudding ** > Sent: Oct 29, 2011 12:52 PM > To: NewPoetry List ** > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > Bill, sorry for the mix-up. > > Alex, I understand the pleasure in using a blurb-sized excerpt to stimulate > conversation. Maybe that's partly what blurbs are for: give people something > to argue about. In part, that's my point. Art is often more of an activity > of making distinctions internal to art -- in order to distinguish oneself, > one's school, or one's viewpoint, or as a testimony of one's taste -- than > in doing something else, finding pleasure in something else (am thinking > here of the work of Pierre Bourdieu, for instance, specifically The Field of > Cultural Production). > > By which I'm not saying the discussion of the blurb wasn't trying to do > something useful. Just that there is a tendency to struggle for distinction > using features that, over time, become more and more technical. > > Regarding yr response to the point about ethical & political reparative > action as an important component of poetry/literature: I understand your > concern there; there is a history of debate about it. My concern is less > with what you call the future of humanity and more with the reality of how > we are treating animals now. > > This is the 6th largest mass extinction in the natural record. And we are > strangely unaware of this -- and if aware we are on the whole apathetic. > Directly related to this mass extinction is the factory farming of animals. > It is the single largest factor in global warming, directly related to a > meat-based diet. Humans kill about 60 billion animals each year for their > meat, 10 billion annually in the US alone. > > We need, for instance, to stop eating animals. And we need to begin > awakening our own capacities for loving-kindness -- extending that mindstate > into the realities of our own diet, our own taste for meat. If someone can't > stop altogether, then just eat half of what was eaten before. The next year, > eat half of that. > > Poems and essays and conversations that help widen our understanding of > subjectivity and awaken our empathy to include animals as individuals who > should be accorded bodily and mental sovereignty, whose lives and > relationships matter to them and because of that should matter to us -- > matter to the point where we stop eating them -- is one example of the kinds > of poems & debates I can get behind. That is a worthwhile project, to my > mind. > > Anthologies debating and making statements about the line strike me as a > waste of resources and time -- unless they contain some excoriation of the > myopia historically endemic to art and a reminder there is a world of > suffering out there beyond our technical myopia. > > Certainly it's possible to do both. Literary history suggests however that > technical concerns tend to so stimulate people into delusional struggles > that they forget about other stuff. (Am thinking, re this last assertion, of > the work, again, of Pierre Bourdieu and to some extent Jed Rasula). > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 9:57 PM, Alexander Dickow wrote: > >> Welcome, Gabe! As stated here earlier by a number of us, there's a great >> deal of esteem here for your work, and you'll be perhaps relieved to know >> that all were quite conscious that a mere blurb-sized excerpt was likely not >> enough to judge an argument. Although I think there are indirect ways in >> which preoccupation with form connects to the ethical concerns you mention, >> just as I am reciprocally a bit skeptical toward the claims made for poetry >> in the name of ethics, which often appears to me as a decidedly meek version >> of the Romantic ideal of transformative literature (ie, poetry transforms >> individuals if not "the World", which is just a way of setting one's sights >> a great deal lower than originally intended, while claiming that the >> fundamental ambition hasn't changed). >> I think about technical matters; you've read Caramboles; am I unconcerned >> by the future of humanity? I'm not sure. On the other hand, I wouldn't make >> an anthology on the line either. >> Welcome to NewPo, in any event. Try not to scuffle with Bob and Halvard, >> and be nice to Anny, Jim (aka Finnegan) and Amy (King), and you'll be just >> fine. And when people quote Frost...let them ;) >> Amicalement, >> Alex >> >> www.alexdickow.net/blog/ >> >> les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin >> merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* gabriel gudding >> *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> *Sent:* Friday, October 28, 2011 10:44 PM >> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >> >> Having learned the line/fetish essay was being discussed here, and having >> read some of the comments about it in your archives, I thought I could >> subscribe to New-Poetry and clarify what was meant in the essay. Hope that's >> okay. >> >> This might be a nice chance to do so, since the editors of that anthology >> only gave the solicited contributors 750 words to convey something >> insightful about "the line." Not easy. I took about 730 words. Not much room >> for nuanced explanation, barely room for frank assertion. >> >> By saying that the line is not a feature of poetry I wasn't suggesting >> lines aren't found in poems, nor was I making any assertions about prose >> poetry versus metrical or free verse. >> >> The essay doesn't suggest the line should be abolished or that it >> originated with Modernists or fascists etc. Nor was I criticizing any >> particular kind of line (eg, metrical, as was suggested) or the notion of >> the linebreak. >> >> The essay is mostly making the assertion that whatever the technical >> phenomena are that get called "the line" at any particular point in literary >> history (eg, hypertrophic lines associated w/ strophic verse, prose lines, >> iambic pentameter, this or that technical description), such arguments (1) >> really do not matter in any way extrinsic to specifically disciplinary >> concerns, and (2) any ways that they *do* matter specific to disciplinary >> concerns are really meaningless in terms of the wider, and very dire, issues >> facing our collective human and animal future, which I start talking about >> later on in the essay. >> >> A basic concern of the essay is that poetry often gets defined merely by, >> from, or through its technical features. I might cite, as an example of >> this, Bill (whom I admire, btw) saying "The line IS poetry." >> >> An unspoken, but hopefully not too implicit part of the essay, is my >> conviction that whatever poetry is, it is larger than its technical debates, >> attempted definitions, and its ostensible "parts" (like line, rhythm, sound >> -- all of which are merely guesses at conceptualizing something we don't >> really understand). The guesses and debates are their own thing; the thing >> we don't understand is something else -- hence my admittedly rebarbative >> assertion that the line is not a feature of poetry. "The line" is something >> we pretend to understand and make distinctions and assertions about. While >> poetry is something we don't understand altogether. >> >> *The basic point the essay makes is that whatever poetry is, and whatever >> its minor (and at times cataclysmic-seeming) technical debates and >> disagreements, poetry (both mainstream and >> experimental/avant-garde/innovative) has had, since the early 20th century >> in the US (and the late 19th century in France), more of an interest in its >> own debates about technique and technicalities than an interest in seeing >> itself as a mode of reparative ethical action.* >> >> And I'm trying to suggest that the former blinds us to the possibilities >> of the latter. There is an institutional tendency to focus on and debate >> poetry's technical features and ignore poetry's wider potential role as mode >> of ethical and political reparative action. I really think issues about the >> line are not worth debating or making books about. Too much other work to be >> done with our energies. >> >> *The real concern of my essay (and this post) is not the line or these >> debates, but the fact that we are living through the 6th largest extinction >> of animals (and possibly our own) in the nature record.* >> >> I was given 750 words to disagree with the premise of the anthology for >> which I'd been solicited. Because of limited word count, figured I should >> use a provocative tone. :) >> >> Anyway, thanks for letting me stick my nose in the door here and say >> hi.... :) >> >> Gabe >> PS, in case you'd like to see what I meant by the larger issues and work >> before us, it's found here: >> http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_broken_thing.php >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > **** > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sat Oct 29 15:02:20 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 15:02:20 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Message-ID: <13509221.1319914940386.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Oct 29 15:03:32 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 12:03:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Louise Gluck In-Reply-To: <8CE64789EA475A9-DA8-D7399@Webmail-d110.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1319915012.92449.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> I'm a fan of Gluck. She can be melodramatic, but I also enjoy the fiction of Joyce Carol Oates, and she's ofter lurid, soaked with melo ...drama. But they both take risk. & Gluck has offered a solid body of work that grown in subtle ways over the years. There's little humor in her work. She lacks a funny bone. But she's true to her vision. --- On Sat, 10/29/11, jforjames at aol.com wrote: From: jforjames at aol.com Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Louise Gluck To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Saturday, October 29, 2011, 1:37 PM I liked her book Ararat quite a bit. Less thrilled since then. This one isn't?that bad. Kind of?reminds me a poem that Mark Strand might do better with though: The outlines of a short story or a foreign film?that could at any moment shift into the surreal or go gothic... Because she doesn't know it exists, her power is very great now, fused to the needs of his imagination. He is her prisoner. ? But it needs some more close-ups; and less philosophical voice-over. ? It's snowing here in central Connecticut; big heavy flakes of snow coming down. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Skip Fox To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sat, Oct 29, 2011 4:37 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Louise Gluck No fan of Gluck by far (I usually think of her work as a warm bath if that), but this was somewhat better than I expected. The last two stanzas make me think she may have a section of Goldsmith's "Deserted Village" in mind, and they do have a sense of?emptiness in presence which reverses his work.?(Or is reading anything prior to Ella Wheeler Wilcox foreign to her?) On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 10:51 AM, David Graham wrote: As a break from complaining about anthologies, I thought I'd read some individual poems, and complain about them. ? For example, I have never quite understood Louise Gluck's appeal as a poet, and certainly not the awe in which she is held by so many readers I respect. ?I recognize she can craft an image, and is clearly a "good" poet. ?But many of her poems just seem flat and talky, and often melodramatic. Most of all, though, I just don't recognize her world, I suppose. ?The following poem just appeared in my in-box courtesy of Garrison Keillor. ?I read it twice, and never once did I think "that's insightful" or "I never thought of things that way." Nor was I dazzled by the craft in any way. ? Instead, I found myself wondering if anyone outside the realm of literature actually thinks and talks in this way. ?In addition to falling pretty flat to my ears, this poem sounds stagey in the worst way. ?I simply don't buy either the woman or the man as characters. ? I'm not particularly interested in a Gluck pile-on, though I realize I've opened the door to it, as well as to dark comments about my own taste. ?I'm more interested in knowing if anyone who loves her work can articulate the appeal of a poem such as this one. ? In the Plaza For two weeks he's been watching the same girl, someone he sees in the plaza. In her twenties maybe, drinking coffee in the afternoon, the little dark head bent over a magazine. He watches from across the square, pretending to be buying something, cigarettes, maybe a bouquet of flowers. Because she doesn't know it exists, her power is very great now, fused to the needs of his imagination. He is her prisoner. She says the words he gives her in a voice he imagines, low-pitched and soft, a voice from the south as the dark hair must be from the south. Soon she will recognize him, then begin to expect him. And perhaps then every day her hair will be freshly washed, she will gaze outward across the plaza before looking down. and after that they will become lovers. But he hopes this will not happen immediately since whatever power she exerts now over his body, over his emotions, she will have no power once she commits herself? she will withdraw into that private world of feeling women enter when they love. And living there, she will become like a person who casts no shadow, who is not present in the world; in that sense, so little use to him it hardly matters whether she lives or dies. --Louise Gl?ck.? A Village Life. Farrar, Straus & Giroux, 2009. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sat Oct 29 14:59:29 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 14:59:29 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Message-ID: <19275257.1319914770024.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Oct 29 15:05:15 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 12:05:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319915115.40349.YahooMailClassic@web161914.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Exactly. Does a definition have a point of view? --- On Sat, 10/29/11, Halvard Johnson wrote: From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, October 29, 2011, 2:14 PM Definitions are, by definition, non-objective. ?? ? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 12:40 PM, bob grumman wrote: ? ? From: Bill Morgan Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 11:51 PM To: 'NewPoetry List' Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line ? A basic concern of the essay is that poetry often gets defined merely by, from, or through its technical features. I might cite, as an example of this, Bill (whom I admire, btw) saying "The line IS poetry." ? Hi, Gabe? ? Just to clarify: it was not I who wrote that ?The line IS poetry.?? That was Bob.? I was trying with all my small might to argue against that position. ? Welcome! ? Bill Morgan ? Right.? I claim that to be able to communicate you need objectively to define your terms.? If there?s any way other than determination of its objective material characteristics (or techniques) reasonably to define poetry, I?d like to hear about it.? Simplicity of definite is a virtue, too.? Defining poetry objectively as lines or line-equivalents is simple and works for everything reasonable people consider poetry to be except prose poems.? It ought to work for prose poems, too, by ruling them prose, but nullinguists won?t allow it (because clearly-defined terms are useful only to people capable of rationality).? ? The line, by the way, is not necessarily the most important feature of any poem, it is simply the key definitive detail of all poems.? The only one, it seems to me.? It?s what makes poems different from all texts which are not poems.? I think Gabe is arguing about what poems are best used for, not about what they are.? I?m not up to that: it?s too complexly subjective a matter for Internet discussion. ? --Bob ? ? _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Oct 29 15:12:13 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 12:12:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: Stephen Russell's Dilemma Message-ID: <1319915533.4600.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Thanks Bob. Just saw this ... the problem was solved. I MUST NEVER FORGET MY FAVORITE AUTHOR AGAIN ... when answering the security questions. Was locked out of yahoo. Hideous anxiety ... I was thinking possible intellectual property lawyer, how to afford the lawyer ... a life of crime in order to pay off my legal team ... nightmare ... but over ... again, many thanks, Bob, for posting this ... I need more than ONE backup ... --- On Fri, 10/28/11, bob grumman wrote: From: bob grumman Subject: [New-Poetry] Stephen Russell's Dilemma To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Friday, October 28, 2011, 3:55 PM #yiv1661198229 body{font-family:Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:9pt;background-color:#ffffff;color:black;} ? Stephen Russell is having Internet trouble.? The following explains it: "Jesus, all of my work is saved on poet_in_hell_files ... this is a nightmare ... i've passed the first 24 hr security lockout ... we're into another 12 hrs ... seriously,Bob, could you post a help request on new poetry ... & if there are any replies ... could you facebook the reply, or email me @ poet_in_hell at yahoo.com? My old email (with the important info) has the word files after the hell. Problem: sadly, i couldn't answer the 1st security question when I tried to change my password. Misspelling ... or did i get lazy when i originally completed the security questions. Instead of poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com, I'm using my other yahoo ... nearly the same, except for the word files ... poet_in_hell at yahoo.com. I can't lose all of that work. I sure there's some solution. I've been combing the internet ... Still, my anxiety is horrible ... I guess my work is safe during the lockout." ? I?ve had problems like this but can?t remember how I solved them.? I think I didn?t know how I was solving them when I did.? Is there anyone who can help? I believe you can use the following to contact him.? Otherwise. post to the group and I;?ll try to relay what you say.notification+o0cty999 at facebookmail.com -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Oct 29 15:19:41 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 12:19:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Louise Gluck In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319915981.14531.YahooMailClassic@web161907.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Are they ganging up Gluck, Anny? If so, it's us AgAinSt them -- --- On Sat, 10/29/11, Anny Ballardini wrote: From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Louise Gluck To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, October 29, 2011, 8:19 AM I like Gluck's voice. I think it is something you feel or you do not. What she says is right, similar to Leopardi in this context - just to mention a monster in poetry. The fact that when the event - onto which you have projected your highest expectations and hopes - (for Leopardi when Sunday - the free day, the day to celebrate arrives; and for Gluck the fact that people are in love as long as it is not allowed them to love: thus depicting the fundamental paradox that leads to isolation) finally happens, the protagonists can't but be disappointed, be it by the same event or by the realization that their idealistic projection is out of order. On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 5:51 PM, David Graham wrote: As a break from complaining about anthologies, I thought I'd read some individual poems, and complain about them. ? For example, I have never quite understood Louise Gluck's appeal as a poet, and certainly not the awe in which she is held by so many readers I respect. ?I recognize she can craft an image, and is clearly a "good" poet. ?But many of her poems just seem flat and talky, and often melodramatic. Most of all, though, I just don't recognize her world, I suppose. ?The following poem just appeared in my in-box courtesy of Garrison Keillor. ?I read it twice, and never once did I think "that's insightful" or "I never thought of things that way." Nor was I dazzled by the craft in any way. ? Instead, I found myself wondering if anyone outside the realm of literature actually thinks and talks in this way. ?In addition to falling pretty flat to my ears, this poem sounds stagey in the worst way. ?I simply don't buy either the woman or the man as characters. ? I'm not particularly interested in a Gluck pile-on, though I realize I've opened the door to it, as well as to dark comments about my own taste. ?I'm more interested in knowing if anyone who loves her work can articulate the appeal of a poem such as this one. ? In the Plaza For two weeks he's been watching the same girl, someone he sees in the plaza. In her twenties maybe,drinking coffee in the afternoon, the little dark headbent over a magazine. He watches from across the square, pretendingto be buying something, cigarettes, maybe a bouquet of flowers. Because she doesn't know it exists,her power is very great now, fused to the needs of his imagination.He is her prisoner. She says the words he gives her in a voice he imagines, low-pitched and soft,a voice from the south as the dark hair must be from the south. Soon she will recognize him, then begin to expect him.And perhaps then every day her hair will be freshly washed,she will gaze outward across the plaza before looking down. and after that they will become lovers. But he hopes this will not happen immediately since whatever power she exerts now over his body, over his emotions,she will have no power once she commits herself? she will withdraw into that private world of feelingwomen enter when they love. And living there, she will becomelike a person who casts no shadow, who is not present in the world; in that sense, so little use to himit hardly matters whether she lives or dies. --Louise Gl?ck.? A Village Life. Farrar, Straus & Giroux, 2009.======================================== David Grahamgrahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library:http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Oct 29 15:35:42 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 15:35:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: Stephen Russell's Dilemma In-Reply-To: <1319915533.4600.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1319915533.4600.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4F1C1EDDC0E54CF489C22233204AF6F5@BobHP> Glad you?re back, Stephen?I figured you would be. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Oct 29 15:42:14 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 12:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: Stephen Russell's Dilemma In-Reply-To: <4F1C1EDDC0E54CF489C22233204AF6F5@BobHP> Message-ID: <1319917334.46028.YahooMailClassic@web161907.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Thanks. Some post trauma ... but I'm dealing ... --- On Sat, 10/29/11, bob grumman wrote: From: bob grumman Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fw: Stephen Russell's Dilemma To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, October 29, 2011, 3:35 PM Glad you?re back, Stephen?I figured you would be.? ? --Bob -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 15:42:52 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 12:42:52 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: References: <31233210.1319912637267.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: I'll have to ruminate more on all this. - Jim On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 11:55 AM, gabriel gudding wrote: > We would use less arable land than we do now. I think the figures are 60% > less. Will look. > > A good example of a poetry book that does this kind of work while still > being brilliant poetry is Ariana Reines' _The Cow_ (Fence 2006). > > > On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 1:23 PM, wrote: > >> If we all stopped eating animals the first necessity would be massive >> slaughter, or all those gas-spewing beasts would destroy every bit of >> vegetation on the planet. Thouigh I suuppose we could neuter them all, so >> that after they've decimated the flora the surviving humans could begin >> repopulating. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: gabriel gudding ** >> Sent: Oct 29, 2011 12:52 PM >> To: NewPoetry List ** >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >> >> Bill, sorry for the mix-up. >> >> Alex, I understand the pleasure in using a blurb-sized excerpt to >> stimulate conversation. Maybe that's partly what blurbs are for: give people >> something to argue about. In part, that's my point. Art is often more of an >> activity of making distinctions internal to art -- in order to distinguish >> oneself, one's school, or one's viewpoint, or as a testimony of one's taste >> -- than in doing something else, finding pleasure in something else (am >> thinking here of the work of Pierre Bourdieu, for instance, specifically The >> Field of Cultural Production). >> >> By which I'm not saying the discussion of the blurb wasn't trying to do >> something useful. Just that there is a tendency to struggle for distinction >> using features that, over time, become more and more technical. >> >> Regarding yr response to the point about ethical & political reparative >> action as an important component of poetry/literature: I understand your >> concern there; there is a history of debate about it. My concern is less >> with what you call the future of humanity and more with the reality of how >> we are treating animals now. >> >> This is the 6th largest mass extinction in the natural record. And we are >> strangely unaware of this -- and if aware we are on the whole apathetic. >> Directly related to this mass extinction is the factory farming of animals. >> It is the single largest factor in global warming, directly related to a >> meat-based diet. Humans kill about 60 billion animals each year for their >> meat, 10 billion annually in the US alone. >> >> We need, for instance, to stop eating animals. And we need to begin >> awakening our own capacities for loving-kindness -- extending that mindstate >> into the realities of our own diet, our own taste for meat. If someone can't >> stop altogether, then just eat half of what was eaten before. The next year, >> eat half of that. >> >> Poems and essays and conversations that help widen our understanding of >> subjectivity and awaken our empathy to include animals as individuals who >> should be accorded bodily and mental sovereignty, whose lives and >> relationships matter to them and because of that should matter to us -- >> matter to the point where we stop eating them -- is one example of the kinds >> of poems & debates I can get behind. That is a worthwhile project, to my >> mind. >> >> Anthologies debating and making statements about the line strike me as a >> waste of resources and time -- unless they contain some excoriation of the >> myopia historically endemic to art and a reminder there is a world of >> suffering out there beyond our technical myopia. >> >> Certainly it's possible to do both. Literary history suggests however that >> technical concerns tend to so stimulate people into delusional struggles >> that they forget about other stuff. (Am thinking, re this last assertion, of >> the work, again, of Pierre Bourdieu and to some extent Jed Rasula). >> >> On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 9:57 PM, Alexander Dickow wrote: >> >>> Welcome, Gabe! As stated here earlier by a number of us, there's a great >>> deal of esteem here for your work, and you'll be perhaps relieved to know >>> that all were quite conscious that a mere blurb-sized excerpt was likely not >>> enough to judge an argument. Although I think there are indirect ways in >>> which preoccupation with form connects to the ethical concerns you mention, >>> just as I am reciprocally a bit skeptical toward the claims made for poetry >>> in the name of ethics, which often appears to me as a decidedly meek version >>> of the Romantic ideal of transformative literature (ie, poetry transforms >>> individuals if not "the World", which is just a way of setting one's sights >>> a great deal lower than originally intended, while claiming that the >>> fundamental ambition hasn't changed). >>> I think about technical matters; you've read Caramboles; am I unconcerned >>> by the future of humanity? I'm not sure. On the other hand, I wouldn't make >>> an anthology on the line either. >>> Welcome to NewPo, in any event. Try not to scuffle with Bob and Halvard, >>> and be nice to Anny, Jim (aka Finnegan) and Amy (King), and you'll be just >>> fine. And when people quote Frost...let them ;) >>> Amicalement, >>> Alex >>> >>> www.alexdickow.net/blog/ >>> >>> les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin >>> merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* gabriel gudding >>> *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> *Sent:* Friday, October 28, 2011 10:44 PM >>> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>> >>> Having learned the line/fetish essay was being discussed here, and having >>> read some of the comments about it in your archives, I thought I could >>> subscribe to New-Poetry and clarify what was meant in the essay. Hope that's >>> okay. >>> >>> This might be a nice chance to do so, since the editors of that anthology >>> only gave the solicited contributors 750 words to convey something >>> insightful about "the line." Not easy. I took about 730 words. Not much room >>> for nuanced explanation, barely room for frank assertion. >>> >>> By saying that the line is not a feature of poetry I wasn't suggesting >>> lines aren't found in poems, nor was I making any assertions about prose >>> poetry versus metrical or free verse. >>> >>> The essay doesn't suggest the line should be abolished or that it >>> originated with Modernists or fascists etc. Nor was I criticizing any >>> particular kind of line (eg, metrical, as was suggested) or the notion of >>> the linebreak. >>> >>> The essay is mostly making the assertion that whatever the technical >>> phenomena are that get called "the line" at any particular point in literary >>> history (eg, hypertrophic lines associated w/ strophic verse, prose lines, >>> iambic pentameter, this or that technical description), such arguments (1) >>> really do not matter in any way extrinsic to specifically disciplinary >>> concerns, and (2) any ways that they *do* matter specific to >>> disciplinary concerns are really meaningless in terms of the wider, and very >>> dire, issues facing our collective human and animal future, which I start >>> talking about later on in the essay. >>> >>> A basic concern of the essay is that poetry often gets defined merely by, >>> from, or through its technical features. I might cite, as an example of >>> this, Bill (whom I admire, btw) saying "The line IS poetry." >>> >>> An unspoken, but hopefully not too implicit part of the essay, is my >>> conviction that whatever poetry is, it is larger than its technical debates, >>> attempted definitions, and its ostensible "parts" (like line, rhythm, sound >>> -- all of which are merely guesses at conceptualizing something we don't >>> really understand). The guesses and debates are their own thing; the thing >>> we don't understand is something else -- hence my admittedly rebarbative >>> assertion that the line is not a feature of poetry. "The line" is something >>> we pretend to understand and make distinctions and assertions about. While >>> poetry is something we don't understand altogether. >>> >>> *The basic point the essay makes is that whatever poetry is, and whatever >>> its minor (and at times cataclysmic-seeming) technical debates and >>> disagreements, poetry (both mainstream and >>> experimental/avant-garde/innovative) has had, since the early 20th century >>> in the US (and the late 19th century in France), more of an interest in its >>> own debates about technique and technicalities than an interest in seeing >>> itself as a mode of reparative ethical action.* >>> >>> And I'm trying to suggest that the former blinds us to the possibilities >>> of the latter. There is an institutional tendency to focus on and debate >>> poetry's technical features and ignore poetry's wider potential role as mode >>> of ethical and political reparative action. I really think issues about the >>> line are not worth debating or making books about. Too much other work to be >>> done with our energies. >>> >>> *The real concern of my essay (and this post) is not the line or these >>> debates, but the fact that we are living through the 6th largest extinction >>> of animals (and possibly our own) in the nature record.* >>> >>> I was given 750 words to disagree with the premise of the anthology for >>> which I'd been solicited. Because of limited word count, figured I should >>> use a provocative tone. :) >>> >>> Anyway, thanks for letting me stick my nose in the door here and say >>> hi.... :) >>> >>> Gabe >>> PS, in case you'd like to see what I meant by the larger issues and work >>> before us, it's found here: >>> http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_broken_thing.php >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> **** >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Oct 29 15:50:53 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 12:50:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1319917853.54950.YahooMailClassic@web161915.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> This is a current obsession of mine. I've just started & I consider Peter Singer (the conscience of the Animal Rights Movement) the most important living philosopher. The documentary "Earthlings" is a powerful, must see work. Albert Sweitzer (?) was well ahead of his time on this issue. --- On Sat, 10/29/11, James Cervantes wrote: From: James Cervantes Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, October 29, 2011, 3:42 PM I'll have to ruminate more on all this. - Jim On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 11:55 AM, gabriel gudding wrote: We would use less arable land than we do now. I think the figures are 60% less. Will look. A good example of a poetry book that does this kind of work while still being brilliant poetry is Ariana Reines' _The Cow_ (Fence 2006). On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 1:23 PM, wrote: If we all stopped eating animals the first necessity would be massive slaughter, or all those gas-spewing beasts would destroy every bit of vegetation on the planet. Thouigh I suuppose we could neuter them all, so that after they've decimated the flora the surviving humans could begin repopulating. -----Original Message----- From: gabriel gudding Sent: Oct 29, 2011 12:52 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Bill, sorry for the mix-up. Alex, I understand the pleasure in using a blurb-sized excerpt to stimulate conversation. Maybe that's partly what blurbs are for: give people something to argue about. In part, that's my point. Art is often more of an activity of making distinctions internal to art -- in order to distinguish oneself, one's school, or one's viewpoint, or as a testimony of one's taste -- than in doing something else, finding pleasure in something else (am thinking here of the work of Pierre Bourdieu, for instance, specifically The Field of Cultural Production). By which I'm not saying the discussion of the blurb wasn't trying to do something useful. Just that there is a tendency to struggle for distinction using features that, over time, become more and more technical.? Regarding yr response to the point about ethical & political reparative action as an important component of poetry/literature: I understand your concern there; there is a history of debate about it. My concern is less with what you call the future of humanity and more with the reality of how we are treating animals now. This is the 6th largest mass extinction in the natural record. And we are strangely unaware of this -- and if aware we are on the whole apathetic. Directly related to this mass extinction is the factory farming of animals. It is the single largest factor in global warming, directly related to a meat-based diet. Humans kill about 60 billion animals each year for their meat, 10 billion annually in the US alone.? We need, for instance, to stop eating animals. And we need to begin awakening our own capacities for loving-kindness -- extending that mindstate into the realities of our own diet, our own taste for meat. If someone can't stop altogether, then just eat half of what was eaten before. The next year, eat half of that. Poems and essays and conversations that help widen our understanding of subjectivity and awaken our empathy to include animals as individuals who should be accorded bodily and mental sovereignty, whose lives and relationships matter to them and because of that should matter to us -- matter to the point where we stop eating them -- is one example of the kinds of poems & debates I can get behind. That is a worthwhile project, to my mind.? Anthologies debating and making statements about the line strike me as a waste of resources and time -- unless they contain some excoriation of the myopia historically endemic to art and a reminder there is a world of suffering out there beyond our technical myopia. Certainly it's possible to do both. Literary history suggests however that technical concerns tend to so stimulate people into delusional struggles that they forget about other stuff. (Am thinking, re this last assertion, of the work, again, of Pierre Bourdieu and to some extent Jed Rasula). On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 9:57 PM, Alexander Dickow wrote: Welcome, Gabe! As stated here earlier by a number of us, there's a great deal of esteem here for your work, and you'll be perhaps relieved to know that all were quite conscious that a mere blurb-sized excerpt was likely not enough to judge an argument. Although I think there are indirect ways in which preoccupation with form connects to the ethical concerns you mention, just as I am reciprocally a bit skeptical toward the claims made for poetry in the name of ethics, which often appears to me as a decidedly meek version of the Romantic ideal of transformative literature (ie, poetry transforms individuals if not "the World", which is just a way of setting one's sights a great deal lower than originally intended, while claiming that the fundamental ambition hasn't changed). I think about technical matters; you've read Caramboles; am I unconcerned by the future of humanity? I'm not sure. On the other hand, I wouldn't make an anthology on the line either. Welcome to NewPo, in any event. Try not to scuffle with Bob and Halvard, and be nice to Anny, Jim (aka Finnegan) and Amy (King), and you'll be just fine. And when people quote Frost...let them ;) Amicalement, Alex ? www.alexdickow.net/blog/ ? les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet From: gabriel gudding To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Friday, October 28, 2011 10:44 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Having learned the line/fetish essay was being discussed here, and having read some of the comments about it in your archives, I thought I could subscribe to New-Poetry and clarify what was meant in the essay. Hope that's okay. This might be a nice chance to do so, since the editors of that anthology only gave the solicited contributors 750 words to convey something insightful about "the line." Not easy. I took about 730 words. Not much room for nuanced explanation, barely room for frank assertion. By saying that the line is not a feature of poetry I wasn't suggesting lines aren't found in poems, nor was I making any assertions about prose poetry versus metrical or free verse.? The essay doesn't suggest the line should be abolished or that it originated with Modernists or fascists etc. Nor was I criticizing any particular kind of line (eg, metrical, as was suggested) or the notion of the linebreak.? The essay is mostly making the assertion that whatever the technical phenomena are that get called "the line" at any particular point in literary history (eg, hypertrophic lines associated w/ strophic verse, prose lines, iambic pentameter, this or that technical description), such arguments (1) really do not matter in any way extrinsic to specifically disciplinary concerns, and (2) any ways that they do?matter specific to disciplinary concerns are really meaningless in terms of the wider, and very dire, issues facing our collective human and animal future, which I start talking about later on in the essay. A basic concern of the essay is that poetry often gets defined merely by, from, or through its technical features. I might cite, as an example of this, Bill (whom I admire, btw) saying "The line IS poetry."? An unspoken, but hopefully not too implicit part of the essay, is my conviction that whatever poetry is, it is larger than its technical debates, attempted definitions, and its ostensible "parts" (like line, rhythm, sound -- all of which are merely guesses at conceptualizing something we don't really understand). The guesses and debates are their own thing; the thing we don't understand is something else -- hence my admittedly rebarbative assertion that the line is not a feature of poetry. "The line" is something we pretend to understand and make distinctions and assertions about. While poetry is something we don't understand altogether.? *The basic point the essay makes is that whatever poetry is, and whatever its minor (and at times cataclysmic-seeming) technical debates and disagreements, poetry (both mainstream and experimental/avant-garde/innovative) has had, since the early 20th century in the US (and the late 19th century in France), more of an interest in its own debates about technique and technicalities than an interest in seeing itself as a mode of reparative ethical action.*? And I'm trying to suggest that the former blinds us to the possibilities of the latter. There is an institutional tendency to focus on and debate poetry's technical features and ignore poetry's wider potential role as mode of ethical and political reparative action. I really think issues about the line are not worth debating or making books about. Too much other work to be done with our energies.? *The real concern of my essay (and this post) is not the line or these debates, but the fact that we are living through the 6th largest extinction of animals (and possibly our own) in the nature record.* I was given 750 words to disagree with the premise of the anthology for which I'd been solicited. Because of limited word count, figured I should use a provocative tone. :) Anyway, thanks for letting me stick my nose in the door here and say hi.... :) GabePS, in case you'd like to see what I meant by the larger issues and work before us, it's found here:?http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_broken_thing.php _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry --? Sol Literary Magazine:?http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review:?http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Oct 29 15:56:51 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 15:56:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Build your own TOC of 20C Po In-Reply-To: <8CE647BCBE87C0F-DA8-D7C5E@Webmail-d110.sysops.aol.com> References: <2028F2E9570A4FC0BF891E64095C5644@BobHP><1319756356.67510.YahooMailNeo@web120526.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8CE647BCBE87C0F-DA8-D7C5E@Webmail-d110.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CE2DF26E6D247F7A2BCDEC31D0EF407@BobHP> From: jforjames at aol.com Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 2:00 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Build your own TOC of 20C Po You know what would be fun, for those who want to play: each-one-buld-one...you (grand anthologist) have 175 poets as your upper limit (you could select fewer), show us your table of contents. Finnegan Here is a rough draft of mine: 1. Wilshberia, Iowa School 2. Wilshberia, Neo Formal School . . . 3. Wilshberia, Jump-Cut School 6. Language Poets, Infraverbal School 7. Language Poets, Syntax School (except I?d try to find a better name for it) . . . 11. Pluraesthetic Poets, Visual Poetry School 12. Pluraesthetic Poets, Mathematical Poetry School . . . 16. Miscellaneous Schools such as Haiku, Contra-Genteel, Light Verse In other words, I?d use my list of schools of current poetry (incomplete because of lack of help) as the headers of maybe twenty chapters. Then do research to find out who seems to know the most about each of the ones I don?t consider myself expert in and have them submit lists that I would then choose from. I?d also have a final chapter: ?Poets already widely anthologized? which would have a list of deserving poets I would not include because there would be no point in it like Merwin and Ashbery with data about the anthologies they have work in. I would limit my anthology to people born after 1919. I would leave out lots of deserving poets but fail to include very few deserving kinds of poetry. I would not choose poems on the basis of their ability to promote World Peace. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Oct 29 16:00:42 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 13:00:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Build your own TOC of 20C Po In-Reply-To: <8CE2DF26E6D247F7A2BCDEC31D0EF407@BobHP> Message-ID: <1319918442.69150.YahooMailClassic@web161920.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Guess I'm on a posting roll ... Fun idea, but? N. 3 should be renamed the Wilshberia non-referential school. --- On Sat, 10/29/11, bob grumman wrote: From: bob grumman Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Build your own TOC of 20C Po To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, October 29, 2011, 3:56 PM ? ? From: jforjames at aol.com Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2011 2:00 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Build your own TOC of 20C Po ? You know what would be fun, for those who want to play: each-one-buld-one...you (grand anthologist) have 175 poets as your upper limit (you could select fewer), show us your table of contents. Finnegan Here is a rough draft of mine: ? 1. Wilshberia, Iowa School 2. Wilshberia, Neo Formal School . . . 3. Wilshberia, Jump-Cut School 6. Language Poets, Infraverbal School 7. Language Poets, Syntax School (except I?d try to find a better name for it) . . . 11. Pluraesthetic Poets, Visual Poetry School 12. Pluraesthetic Poets, Mathematical Poetry School . . . 16. Miscellaneous Schools such as Haiku, Contra-Genteel, Light Verse ? In other words, I?d use my list of schools of current poetry (incomplete because of lack of help) as the headers of maybe twenty chapters.? Then do research to find out who seems to know the most about each of the ones I don?t consider myself expert in and have them submit lists that I would then choose from.? I?d also have a final chapter: ?Poets already widely anthologized? which would have a list of deserving poets I would not include because there would be no point in it like Merwin and Ashbery with data about the anthologies they have work in.? I would limit my anthology to people born after 1919.? I would leave out lots of deserving poets but fail to include very few deserving kinds of poetry.?? I would not choose poems on the basis of their ability to promote World Peace. ? --Bob -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 16:06:49 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 15:06:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <13509221.1319914940386.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <13509221.1319914940386.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Mark, you're being naughty. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 2:02 PM, wrote: > Leather-bound? > > If the same number of animals would need to be fed they would use up > precisely the same amount of land, presuming that they ate the same > industrially-produced crops. If they foraged instead on whatever grows > uncultivated it would take a great deal more land. Easy answers are more > fun. Sorry. > > -----Original Message----- > From: gabriel gudding ** > Sent: Oct 29, 2011 2:55 PM > To: NewPoetry List ** > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > We would use less arable land than we do now. I think the figures are 60% > less. Will look. > > A good example of a poetry book that does this kind of work while still > being brilliant poetry is Ariana Reines' _The Cow_ (Fence 2006). > > On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 1:23 PM, wrote: > >> If we all stopped eating animals the first necessity would be massive >> slaughter, or all those gas-spewing beasts would destroy every bit of >> vegetation on the planet. Thouigh I suuppose we could neuter them all, so >> that after they've decimated the flora the surviving humans could begin >> repopulating. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: gabriel gudding ** >> Sent: Oct 29, 2011 12:52 PM >> To: NewPoetry List ** >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >> >> Bill, sorry for the mix-up. >> >> Alex, I understand the pleasure in using a blurb-sized excerpt to >> stimulate conversation. Maybe that's partly what blurbs are for: give people >> something to argue about. In part, that's my point. Art is often more of an >> activity of making distinctions internal to art -- in order to distinguish >> oneself, one's school, or one's viewpoint, or as a testimony of one's taste >> -- than in doing something else, finding pleasure in something else (am >> thinking here of the work of Pierre Bourdieu, for instance, specifically The >> Field of Cultural Production). >> >> By which I'm not saying the discussion of the blurb wasn't trying to do >> something useful. Just that there is a tendency to struggle for distinction >> using features that, over time, become more and more technical. >> >> Regarding yr response to the point about ethical & political reparative >> action as an important component of poetry/literature: I understand your >> concern there; there is a history of debate about it. My concern is less >> with what you call the future of humanity and more with the reality of how >> we are treating animals now. >> >> This is the 6th largest mass extinction in the natural record. And we are >> strangely unaware of this -- and if aware we are on the whole apathetic. >> Directly related to this mass extinction is the factory farming of animals. >> It is the single largest factor in global warming, directly related to a >> meat-based diet. Humans kill about 60 billion animals each year for their >> meat, 10 billion annually in the US alone. >> >> We need, for instance, to stop eating animals. And we need to begin >> awakening our own capacities for loving-kindness -- extending that mindstate >> into the realities of our own diet, our own taste for meat. If someone can't >> stop altogether, then just eat half of what was eaten before. The next year, >> eat half of that. >> >> Poems and essays and conversations that help widen our understanding of >> subjectivity and awaken our empathy to include animals as individuals who >> should be accorded bodily and mental sovereignty, whose lives and >> relationships matter to them and because of that should matter to us -- >> matter to the point where we stop eating them -- is one example of the kinds >> of poems & debates I can get behind. That is a worthwhile project, to my >> mind. >> >> Anthologies debating and making statements about the line strike me as a >> waste of resources and time -- unless they contain some excoriation of the >> myopia historically endemic to art and a reminder there is a world of >> suffering out there beyond our technical myopia. >> >> Certainly it's possible to do both. Literary history suggests however that >> technical concerns tend to so stimulate people into delusional struggles >> that they forget about other stuff. (Am thinking, re this last assertion, of >> the work, again, of Pierre Bourdieu and to some extent Jed Rasula). >> >> On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 9:57 PM, Alexander Dickow wrote: >> >>> Welcome, Gabe! As stated here earlier by a number of us, there's a great >>> deal of esteem here for your work, and you'll be perhaps relieved to know >>> that all were quite conscious that a mere blurb-sized excerpt was likely not >>> enough to judge an argument. Although I think there are indirect ways in >>> which preoccupation with form connects to the ethical concerns you mention, >>> just as I am reciprocally a bit skeptical toward the claims made for poetry >>> in the name of ethics, which often appears to me as a decidedly meek version >>> of the Romantic ideal of transformative literature (ie, poetry transforms >>> individuals if not "the World", which is just a way of setting one's sights >>> a great deal lower than originally intended, while claiming that the >>> fundamental ambition hasn't changed). >>> I think about technical matters; you've read Caramboles; am I unconcerned >>> by the future of humanity? I'm not sure. On the other hand, I wouldn't make >>> an anthology on the line either. >>> Welcome to NewPo, in any event. Try not to scuffle with Bob and Halvard, >>> and be nice to Anny, Jim (aka Finnegan) and Amy (King), and you'll be just >>> fine. And when people quote Frost...let them ;) >>> Amicalement, >>> Alex >>> >>> www.alexdickow.net/blog/ >>> >>> les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin >>> merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* gabriel gudding >>> *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> *Sent:* Friday, October 28, 2011 10:44 PM >>> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>> >>> Having learned the line/fetish essay was being discussed here, and having >>> read some of the comments about it in your archives, I thought I could >>> subscribe to New-Poetry and clarify what was meant in the essay. Hope that's >>> okay. >>> >>> This might be a nice chance to do so, since the editors of that anthology >>> only gave the solicited contributors 750 words to convey something >>> insightful about "the line." Not easy. I took about 730 words. Not much room >>> for nuanced explanation, barely room for frank assertion. >>> >>> By saying that the line is not a feature of poetry I wasn't suggesting >>> lines aren't found in poems, nor was I making any assertions about prose >>> poetry versus metrical or free verse. >>> >>> The essay doesn't suggest the line should be abolished or that it >>> originated with Modernists or fascists etc. Nor was I criticizing any >>> particular kind of line (eg, metrical, as was suggested) or the notion of >>> the linebreak. >>> >>> The essay is mostly making the assertion that whatever the technical >>> phenomena are that get called "the line" at any particular point in literary >>> history (eg, hypertrophic lines associated w/ strophic verse, prose lines, >>> iambic pentameter, this or that technical description), such arguments (1) >>> really do not matter in any way extrinsic to specifically disciplinary >>> concerns, and (2) any ways that they *do* matter specific to >>> disciplinary concerns are really meaningless in terms of the wider, and very >>> dire, issues facing our collective human and animal future, which I start >>> talking about later on in the essay. >>> >>> A basic concern of the essay is that poetry often gets defined merely by, >>> from, or through its technical features. I might cite, as an example of >>> this, Bill (whom I admire, btw) saying "The line IS poetry." >>> >>> An unspoken, but hopefully not too implicit part of the essay, is my >>> conviction that whatever poetry is, it is larger than its technical debates, >>> attempted definitions, and its ostensible "parts" (like line, rhythm, sound >>> -- all of which are merely guesses at conceptualizing something we don't >>> really understand). The guesses and debates are their own thing; the thing >>> we don't understand is something else -- hence my admittedly rebarbative >>> assertion that the line is not a feature of poetry. "The line" is something >>> we pretend to understand and make distinctions and assertions about. While >>> poetry is something we don't understand altogether. >>> >>> *The basic point the essay makes is that whatever poetry is, and whatever >>> its minor (and at times cataclysmic-seeming) technical debates and >>> disagreements, poetry (both mainstream and >>> experimental/avant-garde/innovative) has had, since the early 20th century >>> in the US (and the late 19th century in France), more of an interest in its >>> own debates about technique and technicalities than an interest in seeing >>> itself as a mode of reparative ethical action.* >>> >>> And I'm trying to suggest that the former blinds us to the possibilities >>> of the latter. There is an institutional tendency to focus on and debate >>> poetry's technical features and ignore poetry's wider potential role as mode >>> of ethical and political reparative action. I really think issues about the >>> line are not worth debating or making books about. Too much other work to be >>> done with our energies. >>> >>> *The real concern of my essay (and this post) is not the line or these >>> debates, but the fact that we are living through the 6th largest extinction >>> of animals (and possibly our own) in the nature record.* >>> >>> I was given 750 words to disagree with the premise of the anthology for >>> which I'd been solicited. Because of limited word count, figured I should >>> use a provocative tone. :) >>> >>> Anyway, thanks for letting me stick my nose in the door here and say >>> hi.... :) >>> >>> Gabe >>> PS, in case you'd like to see what I meant by the larger issues and work >>> before us, it's found here: >>> http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_broken_thing.php >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> **** >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > **** > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 16:07:49 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 15:07:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Build your own TOC of 20C Po In-Reply-To: <8CE2DF26E6D247F7A2BCDEC31D0EF407@BobHP> References: <2028F2E9570A4FC0BF891E64095C5644@BobHP> <1319756356.67510.YahooMailNeo@web120526.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <8CE647BCBE87C0F-DA8-D7C5E@Webmail-d110.sysops.aol.com> <8CE2DF26E6D247F7A2BCDEC31D0EF407@BobHP> Message-ID: Enough to make one weep. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 2:56 PM, bob grumman wrote: > > > *From:* jforjames at aol.com > *Sent:* Saturday, October 29, 2011 2:00 PM > *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Build your own TOC of 20C Po > > You know what would be fun, for those who want to play: > each-one-buld-one...you (grand anthologist) have 175 poets as your upper > limit (you could select fewer), show us your table of contents. > Finnegan > Here is a rough draft of mine: > > 1. Wilshberia, Iowa School > 2. Wilshberia, Neo Formal School . . . > 3. Wilshberia, Jump-Cut School > 6. Language Poets, Infraverbal School > 7. Language Poets, Syntax School (except I?d try to find a better name for > it) . . . > 11. Pluraesthetic Poets, Visual Poetry School > 12. Pluraesthetic Poets, Mathematical Poetry School . . . > 16. Miscellaneous Schools such as Haiku, Contra-Genteel, Light Verse > > In other words, I?d use my list of schools of current poetry (incomplete > because of lack of help) as the headers of maybe twenty chapters. Then do > research to find out who seems to know the most about each of the ones I > don?t consider myself expert in and have them submit lists that I would then > choose from. I?d also have a final chapter: ?Poets already widely > anthologized? which would have a list of deserving poets I would not include > because there would be no point in it like Merwin and Ashbery with data > about the anthologies they have work in. I would limit my anthology to > people born after 1919. I would leave out lots of deserving poets but fail > to include very few deserving kinds of poetry. I would not choose poems on > the basis of their ability to promote World Peace. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 16:16:42 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 22:16:42 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tim Peterson Message-ID: and Attention Span: http://thirdfactory.wordpress.com/2011/10/29/attention-span-2011-tim-peterson-trace/ -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 16:19:32 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 22:19:32 +0200 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: References: <1319857056.35681.YahooMailNeo@web160114.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Welcome Gabriel, and thanks Alex for being kind, :-) On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 6:52 PM, gabriel gudding wrote: > Bill, sorry for the mix-up. > > Alex, I understand the pleasure in using a blurb-sized excerpt to > stimulate conversation. Maybe that's partly what blurbs are for: give > people something to argue about. In part, that's my point. Art is often > more of an activity of making distinctions internal to art -- in order to > distinguish oneself, one's school, or one's viewpoint, or as a testimony of > one's taste -- than in doing something else, finding pleasure in something > else (am thinking here of the work of Pierre Bourdieu, for instance, > specifically The Field of Cultural Production). > > By which I'm not saying the discussion of the blurb wasn't trying to do > something useful. Just that there is a tendency to struggle for distinction > using features that, over time, become more and more technical. > > Regarding yr response to the point about ethical & political reparative > action as an important component of poetry/literature: I understand your > concern there; there is a history of debate about it. My concern is less > with what you call the future of humanity and more with the reality of how > we are treating animals now. > > This is the 6th largest mass extinction in the natural record. And we are > strangely unaware of this -- and if aware we are on the whole apathetic. > Directly related to this mass extinction is the factory farming of animals. > It is the single largest factor in global warming, directly related to a > meat-based diet. Humans kill about 60 billion animals each year for their > meat, 10 billion annually in the US alone. > > We need, for instance, to stop eating animals. And we need to begin > awakening our own capacities for loving-kindness -- extending that > mindstate into the realities of our own diet, our own taste for meat. If > someone can't stop altogether, then just eat half of what was eaten before. > The next year, eat half of that. > > Poems and essays and conversations that help widen our understanding of > subjectivity and awaken our empathy to include animals as individuals who > should be accorded bodily and mental sovereignty, whose lives and > relationships matter to them and because of that should matter to us -- > matter to the point where we stop eating them -- is one example of the > kinds of poems & debates I can get behind. That is a worthwhile project, to > my mind. > > Anthologies debating and making statements about the line strike me as a > waste of resources and time -- unless they contain some excoriation of the > myopia historically endemic to art and a reminder there is a world of > suffering out there beyond our technical myopia. > > Certainly it's possible to do both. Literary history suggests however that > technical concerns tend to so stimulate people into delusional struggles > that they forget about other stuff. (Am thinking, re this last assertion, > of the work, again, of Pierre Bourdieu and to some extent Jed Rasula). > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 9:57 PM, Alexander Dickow wrote: > >> Welcome, Gabe! As stated here earlier by a number of us, there's a great >> deal of esteem here for your work, and you'll be perhaps relieved to know >> that all were quite conscious that a mere blurb-sized excerpt was likely >> not enough to judge an argument. Although I think there are indirect ways >> in which preoccupation with form connects to the ethical concerns you >> mention, just as I am reciprocally a bit skeptical toward the claims made >> for poetry in the name of ethics, which often appears to me as a decidedly >> meek version of the Romantic ideal of transformative literature (ie, poetry >> transforms individuals if not "the World", which is just a way of setting >> one's sights a great deal lower than originally intended, while claiming >> that the fundamental ambition hasn't changed). >> I think about technical matters; you've read Caramboles; am I unconcerned >> by the future of humanity? I'm not sure. On the other hand, I wouldn't make >> an anthology on the line either. >> Welcome to NewPo, in any event. Try not to scuffle with Bob and Halvard, >> and be nice to Anny, Jim (aka Finnegan) and Amy (King), and you'll be just >> fine. And when people quote Frost...let them ;) >> Amicalement, >> Alex >> >> www.alexdickow.net/blog/ >> >> les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin >> merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet >> >> ------------------------------ >> *From:* gabriel gudding >> *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> *Sent:* Friday, October 28, 2011 10:44 PM >> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >> >> Having learned the line/fetish essay was being discussed here, and having >> read some of the comments about it in your archives, I thought I could >> subscribe to New-Poetry and clarify what was meant in the essay. Hope >> that's okay. >> >> This might be a nice chance to do so, since the editors of that anthology >> only gave the solicited contributors 750 words to convey something >> insightful about "the line." Not easy. I took about 730 words. Not much >> room for nuanced explanation, barely room for frank assertion. >> >> By saying that the line is not a feature of poetry I wasn't suggesting >> lines aren't found in poems, nor was I making any assertions about prose >> poetry versus metrical or free verse. >> >> The essay doesn't suggest the line should be abolished or that it >> originated with Modernists or fascists etc. Nor was I criticizing any >> particular kind of line (eg, metrical, as was suggested) or the notion of >> the linebreak. >> >> The essay is mostly making the assertion that whatever the technical >> phenomena are that get called "the line" at any particular point in >> literary history (eg, hypertrophic lines associated w/ strophic verse, >> prose lines, iambic pentameter, this or that technical description), such >> arguments (1) really do not matter in any way extrinsic to specifically >> disciplinary concerns, and (2) any ways that they *do* matter specific >> to disciplinary concerns are really meaningless in terms of the wider, and >> very dire, issues facing our collective human and animal future, which I >> start talking about later on in the essay. >> >> A basic concern of the essay is that poetry often gets defined merely by, >> from, or through its technical features. I might cite, as an example of >> this, Bill (whom I admire, btw) saying "The line IS poetry." >> >> An unspoken, but hopefully not too implicit part of the essay, is my >> conviction that whatever poetry is, it is larger than its technical >> debates, attempted definitions, and its ostensible "parts" (like line, >> rhythm, sound -- all of which are merely guesses at conceptualizing >> something we don't really understand). The guesses and debates are their >> own thing; the thing we don't understand is something else -- hence my >> admittedly rebarbative assertion that the line is not a feature of poetry. >> "The line" is something we pretend to understand and make distinctions and >> assertions about. While poetry is something we don't understand altogether. >> >> *The basic point the essay makes is that whatever poetry is, and whatever >> its minor (and at times cataclysmic-seeming) technical debates and >> disagreements, poetry (both mainstream and >> experimental/avant-garde/innovative) has had, since the early 20th century >> in the US (and the late 19th century in France), more of an interest in its >> own debates about technique and technicalities than an interest in seeing >> itself as a mode of reparative ethical action.* >> >> And I'm trying to suggest that the former blinds us to the possibilities >> of the latter. There is an institutional tendency to focus on and debate >> poetry's technical features and ignore poetry's wider potential role as >> mode of ethical and political reparative action. I really think issues >> about the line are not worth debating or making books about. Too much other >> work to be done with our energies. >> >> *The real concern of my essay (and this post) is not the line or these >> debates, but the fact that we are living through the 6th largest extinction >> of animals (and possibly our own) in the nature record.* >> >> I was given 750 words to disagree with the premise of the anthology for >> which I'd been solicited. Because of limited word count, figured I should >> use a provocative tone. :) >> >> Anyway, thanks for letting me stick my nose in the door here and say >> hi.... :) >> >> Gabe >> PS, in case you'd like to see what I meant by the larger issues and work >> before us, it's found here: >> http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_broken_thing.php >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Oct 29 16:24:04 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 16:24:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Emma Lazarus Message-ID: <8CE648FD674E1C0-DA8-D9BC6@Webmail-d110.sysops.aol.com> http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/10/26/how-a-sonnet-made-a-statue-the-mother-of-exiles/ Emma Lazarus?s poem only belatedly became synonymous with the Statute of Liberty, whose 125th birthday as a gift from France will be celebrated on Friday by the National Park Service. Lazarus?s ?New Colossus,? with its memorable appeal to ?give me your tired, your poor,? was commissioned for a fund-raising campaign by artists and writers to pay for the statue?s pedestal. But while the poem was critically acclaimed ? the poet James Russell Lowell wrote that he liked it ?much better than I like the Statue itself? because it ?gives its subject a raison d??tre which it wanted before quite as much as it wants a pedestal? ? it was not even mentioned at the dedication ceremony. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Sat Oct 29 16:42:23 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 15:42:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Louise Gluck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EAC652F.9030208@louisiana.edu> I think two threads come together here. Stephen praises Gluck's "vision," which he compares to Joyce Carol Oates, and Anny praises her "voice," though she goes on to talk about Gluck's poem as a plot-with-characters, built to express a theme. What struck me most is the really extraordinary flatness of Gluck's lines, which is matched by a virtual absence of image (though I'll give you "little dark head bent"--that's o.k.). It does (to me) read more like the JCO of _Zombie_ and _Triumph of the Spider Monkey_ (two serial killer character-studies) than the kind of thing Anny describes. It isn't a story of "lovers," but of a predator and victim imagined according to the predator's predilections, and leading to an ominous conclusion. This, to me, seems banal, a mere pocket-rendering of an overworked pop culture myth (and which Oates absolutely _killed_). For me, it's content is a tiresome effort to imagine the way a certain kind of man (I'd hate to think this poem was meant as some sort of general statement) fantasizes about women. (And I feel I should be quick to say--it might not be at all tiresome if so many people hadn't already thought of it.) Which leaves me with the lineation--the sense that maybe I'm missing some sense of "voice" or "vision" arising from technical resources I'm not adept at reading. I don't see that either, though. When (as below) I take out her line breaks, the narrative is no more or less interesting than it was before. (Once again, I'll acknowledge a very modest exception for "dark head / bent," but I don't find myself closer to enjoying the poem based on that one little ripple in the stream of my expectations. It seems pretty clear to me that you don't write a poem that feels this flat unless you _want_ it flat, believe that a good poem _should be_ flat; and I prefer ripples, waves, eruptions, noise--violations of expectations that are either set up by the poem or introduced by the history of my own preferences. Now, for a long time in my life I had very good, more or less instantaneous intuitions about if, how, and where to break lines in the poems I wrote. But I also felt (rightly, I think) that it's better to have a wide assortment of tools than one intuitive approach to writing, to be able to sense the need for, and apply, alternatives when something you've written doesn't feel quite right to you. As I continued writing, I found that more and more I could get a useful distance from my own intuitive processes through various kinds of technical analysis, including lineation. I found that often something came to me as, for instance, short-and-jerky, but that as it unfolded, it actually made more interesting sense to treat it as long-and-pulsing, or to separate out lines and space them together so as to match one another (or call-and-respond with each other). But I also found that once in a while the whole process would stymie me--that I'd begin with longish lines, try breaking them differently, try distinctly shorter lines, etc., but that the poem still felt wrong. And I determined, somewhere in that process, that eliminating line break entirely and focusing on a large block of rhythmic patterns sometimes solved my problem: like a child discovering for himself the principle of the wheel, I'd invented the prose poem as one of the forms that solves problems for me when I'm writing. So I can't agree with Bob that the line is everything--or everything that's not lineated is prose. From a _productive_ point of view, that hasn't been my experience (I write prose too, and the process of production, both for fiction and nonfiction, is enormously different). But it also seems to me that lineation isn't merely a convenience, or worse, some kind of empty alibi or mere distraction. If you write off lineation because it doesn't usefully and directly address the horrendous problems the world presents us with, then it seems reasonable to write off poetry too, for the same reason. Does anyone have anything to say about the unlineated version of Gluck's poem? Best, Jerry *In the Plaza* ** ** ** *For two weeks he's been watching the same girl, someone he sees in the plaza. In her twenties maybe, drinking coffee in the afternoon, the little dark head bent over a magazine. He watches from across the square, pretending to be buying something, cigarettes, maybe a bouquet of flowers. Because she doesn't know it exists, her power is very great now, fused to the needs of his imagination. He is her prisoner. She says the words he gives her in a voice he imagines, low-pitched and soft, a voice from the south as the dark hair must be from the south. Soon she will recognize him, then begin to expect him. And perhaps then every day her hair will be freshly washed, she will gaze outward across the plaza before looking down. and after that they will become lovers. But he hopes this will not happen immediately since whatever power she exerts now over his body, over his emotions, she will have no power once she commits herself---she will withdraw into that private world of feeling women enter when they love. And living there, she will become like a person who casts no shadow, who is not present in the world; in that sense, so little use to him it hardly matters whether she lives or dies.* ** ** On 10/29/2011 7:19 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > I like Gluck's voice. I think it is something you feel or you do not. > What she says is right, similar to Leopardi in this context - just to > mention a monster in poetry. The fact that when the event - onto which > you have projected your highest expectations and hopes - (for Leopardi > when Sunday - the free day, the day to celebrate arrives; and for > Gluck the fact that people are in love as long as it is not allowed > them to love: thus depicting the fundamental paradox that leads to > isolation) finally happens, the protagonists can't but be > disappointed, be it by the same event or by the realization that their > idealistic projection is out of order. > > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 5:51 PM, David Graham > wrote: > > As a break from complaining about anthologies, I thought I'd read > some individual poems, and complain about them. > > For example, I have never quite understood Louise Gluck's appeal > as a poet, and certainly not the awe in which she is held by so > many readers I respect. I recognize she can craft an image, and > is clearly a "good" poet. But many of her poems just seem flat > and talky, and often melodramatic. > > Most of all, though, I just don't recognize her world, I suppose. > The following poem just appeared in my in-box courtesy of > Garrison Keillor. I read it twice, and never once did I think > "that's insightful" or "I never thought of things that way." Nor > was I dazzled by the craft in any way. Instead, I found myself > wondering if anyone outside the realm of literature actually > thinks and talks in this way. In addition to falling pretty flat > to my ears, this poem sounds stagey in the worst way. I simply > don't buy either the woman or the man as characters. > > I'm not particularly interested in a Gluck pile-on, though I > realize I've opened the door to it, as well as to dark comments > about my own taste. I'm more interested in knowing if anyone who > loves her work can articulate the appeal of a poem such as this one. > > > * > *In the Plaza* > > For two weeks he's been watching the same girl, > someone he sees in the plaza. In her twenties maybe, > drinking coffee in the afternoon, the little dark head > bent over a magazine. > He watches from across the square, pretending > to be buying something, cigarettes, maybe a bouquet of flowers. > > Because she doesn't know it exists, > her power is very great now, fused to the needs of his imagination. > He is her prisoner. She says the words he gives her > in a voice he imagines, low-pitched and soft, > a voice from the south as the dark hair must be from the south. > > Soon she will recognize him, then begin to expect him. > And perhaps then every day her hair will be freshly washed, > she will gaze outward across the plaza before looking down. > and after that they will become lovers. > > But he hopes this will not happen immediately > since whatever power she exerts now over his body, over his emotions, > she will have no power once she commits herself--- > > she will withdraw into that private world of feeling > women enter when they love. And living there, she will become > like a person who casts no shadow, who is not present in the world; > in that sense, so little use to him > it hardly matters whether she lives or dies. > > --Louise Gl?ck. /A Village Life/. Farrar, Straus & Giroux, 2009. > * > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a > dancing star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Oct 29 17:34:47 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 16:34:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Louise Gluck In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <28A7E062-BF36-4653-A92A-0FCF6E409877@ripon.edu> I appreciate this response. But I suppose that if one either "feels it" or not, with Gluck, put me down as one who mostly does not. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Oct 29, 2011, at 7:19 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > I like Gluck's voice. I think it is something you feel or you do not. What she says is right, similar to Leopardi in this context - just to mention a monster in poetry. The fact that when the event - onto which you have projected your highest expectations and hopes - (for Leopardi when Sunday - the free day, the day to celebrate arrives; and for Gluck the fact that people are in love as long as it is not allowed them to love: thus depicting the fundamental paradox that leads to isolation) finally happens, the protagonists can't but be disappointed, be it by the same event or by the realization that their idealistic projection is out of order. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Sat Oct 29 19:29:37 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 18:29:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <1319917853.54950.YahooMailClassic@web161915.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1319917853.54950.YahooMailClassic@web161915.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Stephen, I also admire Peter Singer. He really walks the walk: gives a 1/3 of his income to Oxfam and other charities, and what he's done for animal well-being is maybe almost immeasurable. Tom Regan's another hero, as are Gail Eisnitz (_Slaughterhouse_) and Carol J. Adams. Recently found the work of Matthew Calarco, another philosopher and a vegan, whose latest book _Zoographies_ is really inspiring. Agamben's latest _The Open_ gives a history of anthropocentric thought that gives hope. Haven't seen _Earthlings_ yet but have meant to. It's streaming free here for those interested: http://www.earthlings.com/ Schweitzer yes, and so many others, Einstein, Kafka, Schopenhauer, Tolstoy: "A person can live and be healthy without killing animals for food; therefore, if one eats meat, one participates in taking animal life merely for the sake of appetite. And to act so is immoral." And we are, as a culture, finally beginning to understand the extent of "the protein myth," which sd for so long we can't live without animal protein. Thanks for the reminder about "Earthlings." On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 2:50 PM, stephen russell < poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: > This is a current obsession of mine. I've just started > [image: Image Detail] > > & I consider Peter Singer (the conscience of the Animal Rights Movement) > the most important living philosopher. The documentary "Earthlings" is a > powerful, must see work. > > Albert Sweitzer (?) was well ahead of his time on this issue. > --- On *Sat, 10/29/11, James Cervantes * wrote: > > > From: James Cervantes > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Saturday, October 29, 2011, 3:42 PM > > > I'll have to ruminate more on all this. > > - Jim > > On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 11:55 AM, gabriel gudding < > gabrielgudding at gmail.com >wrote: > > We would use less arable land than we do now. I think the figures are 60% > less. Will look. > > A good example of a poetry book that does this kind of work while still > being brilliant poetry is Ariana Reines' _The Cow_ (Fence 2006). > > > On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 1:23 PM, > > wrote: > > If we all stopped eating animals the first necessity would be massive > slaughter, or all those gas-spewing beasts would destroy every bit of > vegetation on the planet. Thouigh I suuppose we could neuter them all, so > that after they've decimated the flora the surviving humans could begin > repopulating. > > -----Original Message----- > From: gabriel gudding ** > Sent: Oct 29, 2011 12:52 PM > To: NewPoetry List ** > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > Bill, sorry for the mix-up. > > Alex, I understand the pleasure in using a blurb-sized excerpt to stimulate > conversation. Maybe that's partly what blurbs are for: give people something > to argue about. In part, that's my point. Art is often more of an activity > of making distinctions internal to art -- in order to distinguish oneself, > one's school, or one's viewpoint, or as a testimony of one's taste -- than > in doing something else, finding pleasure in something else (am thinking > here of the work of Pierre Bourdieu, for instance, specifically The Field of > Cultural Production). > > By which I'm not saying the discussion of the blurb wasn't trying to do > something useful. Just that there is a tendency to struggle for distinction > using features that, over time, become more and more technical. > > Regarding yr response to the point about ethical & political reparative > action as an important component of poetry/literature: I understand your > concern there; there is a history of debate about it. My concern is less > with what you call the future of humanity and more with the reality of how > we are treating animals now. > > This is the 6th largest mass extinction in the natural record. And we are > strangely unaware of this -- and if aware we are on the whole apathetic. > Directly related to this mass extinction is the factory farming of animals. > It is the single largest factor in global warming, directly related to a > meat-based diet. Humans kill about 60 billion animals each year for their > meat, 10 billion annually in the US alone. > > We need, for instance, to stop eating animals. And we need to begin > awakening our own capacities for loving-kindness -- extending that mindstate > into the realities of our own diet, our own taste for meat. If someone can't > stop altogether, then just eat half of what was eaten before. The next year, > eat half of that. > > Poems and essays and conversations that help widen our understanding of > subjectivity and awaken our empathy to include animals as individuals who > should be accorded bodily and mental sovereignty, whose lives and > relationships matter to them and because of that should matter to us -- > matter to the point where we stop eating them -- is one example of the kinds > of poems & debates I can get behind. That is a worthwhile project, to my > mind. > > Anthologies debating and making statements about the line strike me as a > waste of resources and time -- unless they contain some excoriation of the > myopia historically endemic to art and a reminder there is a world of > suffering out there beyond our technical myopia. > > Certainly it's possible to do both. Literary history suggests however that > technical concerns tend to so stimulate people into delusional struggles > that they forget about other stuff. (Am thinking, re this last assertion, of > the work, again, of Pierre Bourdieu and to some extent Jed Rasula). > > On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 9:57 PM, Alexander Dickow > > wrote: > > Welcome, Gabe! As stated here earlier by a number of us, there's a great > deal of esteem here for your work, and you'll be perhaps relieved to know > that all were quite conscious that a mere blurb-sized excerpt was likely not > enough to judge an argument. Although I think there are indirect ways in > which preoccupation with form connects to the ethical concerns you mention, > just as I am reciprocally a bit skeptical toward the claims made for poetry > in the name of ethics, which often appears to me as a decidedly meek version > of the Romantic ideal of transformative literature (ie, poetry transforms > individuals if not "the World", which is just a way of setting one's sights > a great deal lower than originally intended, while claiming that the > fundamental ambition hasn't changed). > I think about technical matters; you've read Caramboles; am I unconcerned > by the future of humanity? I'm not sure. On the other hand, I wouldn't make > an anthology on the line either. > Welcome to NewPo, in any event. Try not to scuffle with Bob and Halvard, > and be nice to Anny, Jim (aka Finnegan) and Amy (King), and you'll be just > fine. And when people quote Frost...let them ;) > Amicalement, > Alex > > www.alexdickow.net/blog/ > > les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin > merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet > > ------------------------------ > *From:* gabriel gudding > > > *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > *Sent:* Friday, October 28, 2011 10:44 PM > *Subject:* [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > Having learned the line/fetish essay was being discussed here, and having > read some of the comments about it in your archives, I thought I could > subscribe to New-Poetry and clarify what was meant in the essay. Hope that's > okay. > > This might be a nice chance to do so, since the editors of that anthology > only gave the solicited contributors 750 words to convey something > insightful about "the line." Not easy. I took about 730 words. Not much room > for nuanced explanation, barely room for frank assertion. > > By saying that the line is not a feature of poetry I wasn't suggesting > lines aren't found in poems, nor was I making any assertions about prose > poetry versus metrical or free verse. > > The essay doesn't suggest the line should be abolished or that it > originated with Modernists or fascists etc. Nor was I criticizing any > particular kind of line (eg, metrical, as was suggested) or the notion of > the linebreak. > > The essay is mostly making the assertion that whatever the technical > phenomena are that get called "the line" at any particular point in literary > history (eg, hypertrophic lines associated w/ strophic verse, prose lines, > iambic pentameter, this or that technical description), such arguments (1) > really do not matter in any way extrinsic to specifically disciplinary > concerns, and (2) any ways that they *do* matter specific to disciplinary > concerns are really meaningless in terms of the wider, and very dire, issues > facing our collective human and animal future, which I start talking about > later on in the essay. > > A basic concern of the essay is that poetry often gets defined merely by, > from, or through its technical features. I might cite, as an example of > this, Bill (whom I admire, btw) saying "The line IS poetry." > > An unspoken, but hopefully not too implicit part of the essay, is my > conviction that whatever poetry is, it is larger than its technical debates, > attempted definitions, and its ostensible "parts" (like line, rhythm, sound > -- all of which are merely guesses at conceptualizing something we don't > really understand). The guesses and debates are their own thing; the thing > we don't understand is something else -- hence my admittedly rebarbative > assertion that the line is not a feature of poetry. "The line" is something > we pretend to understand and make distinctions and assertions about. While > poetry is something we don't understand altogether. > > *The basic point the essay makes is that whatever poetry is, and whatever > its minor (and at times cataclysmic-seeming) technical debates and > disagreements, poetry (both mainstream and > experimental/avant-garde/innovative) has had, since the early 20th century > in the US (and the late 19th century in France), more of an interest in its > own debates about technique and technicalities than an interest in seeing > itself as a mode of reparative ethical action.* > > And I'm trying to suggest that the former blinds us to the possibilities of > the latter. There is an institutional tendency to focus on and debate > poetry's technical features and ignore poetry's wider potential role as mode > of ethical and political reparative action. I really think issues about the > line are not worth debating or making books about. Too much other work to be > done with our energies. > > *The real concern of my essay (and this post) is not the line or these > debates, but the fact that we are living through the 6th largest extinction > of animals (and possibly our own) in the nature record.* > > I was given 750 words to disagree with the premise of the anthology for > which I'd been solicited. Because of limited word count, figured I should > use a provocative tone. :) > > Anyway, thanks for letting me stick my nose in the door here and say hi.... > :) > > Gabe > PS, in case you'd like to see what I meant by the larger issues and work > before us, it's found here: > http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_broken_thing.php > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > **** > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- > > Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ > > The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > > https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home > > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning > > http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ > > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sat Oct 29 23:36:33 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 23:36:33 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Message-ID: <12313541.1319945794172.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Sun Oct 30 00:48:59 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Sat, 29 Oct 2011 23:48:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line In-Reply-To: <12313541.1319945794172.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <12313541.1319945794172.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: To this notion of empathy and literature, been listening to Steven Pinker's latest book, about trends in declining violence, and was intrigued by his calling literature an "empathy technology" --- in that it allows us to imagine the lives and minds of other persons and animals. He correlates the rise of the realist novel, eg, with the advent of 19thC reform movements in Europe and the US. Kind of interesting. I think there is some role poetry can play (and has) in this long effort to help wake a radical empathy for non-human animals. Love this clip from Neil deGrasse Tyson: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL6hj6xLE8w [BTW, thank you, Annie, for the welcome. And having known Mark online for now 13 years (?), and having had dinner with him, and worked with him on some translations for his amazing anthology of Cuban poetry, I can say with confidence he's one of the least ironic people I've met. :)] On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 10:36 PM, wrote: > Moi? > > -----Original Message----- > From: Halvard Johnson ** > Sent: Oct 29, 2011 4:06 PM > To: NewPoetry List ** > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > Mark, you're being naughty. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 2:02 PM, wrote: > >> Leather-bound? >> >> If the same number of animals would need to be fed they would use up >> precisely the same amount of land, presuming that they ate the same >> industrially-produced crops. If they foraged instead on whatever grows >> uncultivated it would take a great deal more land. Easy answers are more >> fun. Sorry. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: gabriel gudding ** >> Sent: Oct 29, 2011 2:55 PM >> To: NewPoetry List ** >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >> >> We would use less arable land than we do now. I think the figures are 60% >> less. Will look. >> >> A good example of a poetry book that does this kind of work while still >> being brilliant poetry is Ariana Reines' _The Cow_ (Fence 2006). >> >> On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 1:23 PM, wrote: >> >>> If we all stopped eating animals the first necessity would be massive >>> slaughter, or all those gas-spewing beasts would destroy every bit of >>> vegetation on the planet. Thouigh I suuppose we could neuter them all, so >>> that after they've decimated the flora the surviving humans could begin >>> repopulating. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: gabriel gudding ** >>> Sent: Oct 29, 2011 12:52 PM >>> To: NewPoetry List ** >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>> >>> Bill, sorry for the mix-up. >>> >>> Alex, I understand the pleasure in using a blurb-sized excerpt to >>> stimulate conversation. Maybe that's partly what blurbs are for: give >>> people something to argue about. In part, that's my point. Art is often >>> more of an activity of making distinctions internal to art -- in order to >>> distinguish oneself, one's school, or one's viewpoint, or as a testimony of >>> one's taste -- than in doing something else, finding pleasure in something >>> else (am thinking here of the work of Pierre Bourdieu, for instance, >>> specifically The Field of Cultural Production). >>> >>> By which I'm not saying the discussion of the blurb wasn't trying to do >>> something useful. Just that there is a tendency to struggle for distinction >>> using features that, over time, become more and more technical. >>> >>> Regarding yr response to the point about ethical & political reparative >>> action as an important component of poetry/literature: I understand your >>> concern there; there is a history of debate about it. My concern is less >>> with what you call the future of humanity and more with the reality of how >>> we are treating animals now. >>> >>> This is the 6th largest mass extinction in the natural record. And we >>> are strangely unaware of this -- and if aware we are on the whole >>> apathetic. Directly related to this mass extinction is the factory farming >>> of animals. It is the single largest factor in global warming, directly >>> related to a meat-based diet. Humans kill about 60 billion animals each >>> year for their meat, 10 billion annually in the US alone. >>> >>> We need, for instance, to stop eating animals. And we need to begin >>> awakening our own capacities for loving-kindness -- extending that >>> mindstate into the realities of our own diet, our own taste for meat. If >>> someone can't stop altogether, then just eat half of what was eaten before. >>> The next year, eat half of that. >>> >>> Poems and essays and conversations that help widen our understanding of >>> subjectivity and awaken our empathy to include animals as individuals who >>> should be accorded bodily and mental sovereignty, whose lives and >>> relationships matter to them and because of that should matter to us -- >>> matter to the point where we stop eating them -- is one example of the >>> kinds of poems & debates I can get behind. That is a worthwhile project, to >>> my mind. >>> >>> Anthologies debating and making statements about the line strike me as a >>> waste of resources and time -- unless they contain some excoriation of the >>> myopia historically endemic to art and a reminder there is a world of >>> suffering out there beyond our technical myopia. >>> >>> Certainly it's possible to do both. Literary history suggests however >>> that technical concerns tend to so stimulate people into delusional >>> struggles that they forget about other stuff. (Am thinking, re this last >>> assertion, of the work, again, of Pierre Bourdieu and to some extent Jed >>> Rasula). >>> >>> On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 9:57 PM, Alexander Dickow >> > wrote: >>> >>>> Welcome, Gabe! As stated here earlier by a number of us, there's a >>>> great deal of esteem here for your work, and you'll be perhaps relieved to >>>> know that all were quite conscious that a mere blurb-sized excerpt was >>>> likely not enough to judge an argument. Although I think there are indirect >>>> ways in which preoccupation with form connects to the ethical concerns you >>>> mention, just as I am reciprocally a bit skeptical toward the claims made >>>> for poetry in the name of ethics, which often appears to me as a decidedly >>>> meek version of the Romantic ideal of transformative literature (ie, poetry >>>> transforms individuals if not "the World", which is just a way of setting >>>> one's sights a great deal lower than originally intended, while claiming >>>> that the fundamental ambition hasn't changed). >>>> I think about technical matters; you've read Caramboles; am I >>>> unconcerned by the future of humanity? I'm not sure. On the other hand, I >>>> wouldn't make an anthology on the line either. >>>> Welcome to NewPo, in any event. Try not to scuffle with Bob and >>>> Halvard, and be nice to Anny, Jim (aka Finnegan) and Amy (King), and you'll >>>> be just fine. And when people quote Frost...let them ;) >>>> Amicalement, >>>> Alex >>>> >>>> www.alexdickow.net/blog/ >>>> >>>> les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin >>>> merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* gabriel gudding >>>> *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> *Sent:* Friday, October 28, 2011 10:44 PM >>>> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>> >>>> Having learned the line/fetish essay was being discussed here, and >>>> having read some of the comments about it in your archives, I thought I >>>> could subscribe to New-Poetry and clarify what was meant in the essay. Hope >>>> that's okay. >>>> >>>> This might be a nice chance to do so, since the editors of that >>>> anthology only gave the solicited contributors 750 words to convey >>>> something insightful about "the line." Not easy. I took about 730 words. >>>> Not much room for nuanced explanation, barely room for frank assertion. >>>> >>>> By saying that the line is not a feature of poetry I wasn't suggesting >>>> lines aren't found in poems, nor was I making any assertions about prose >>>> poetry versus metrical or free verse. >>>> >>>> The essay doesn't suggest the line should be abolished or that it >>>> originated with Modernists or fascists etc. Nor was I criticizing any >>>> particular kind of line (eg, metrical, as was suggested) or the notion of >>>> the linebreak. >>>> >>>> The essay is mostly making the assertion that whatever the technical >>>> phenomena are that get called "the line" at any particular point in >>>> literary history (eg, hypertrophic lines associated w/ strophic verse, >>>> prose lines, iambic pentameter, this or that technical description), such >>>> arguments (1) really do not matter in any way extrinsic to specifically >>>> disciplinary concerns, and (2) any ways that they *do* matter specific >>>> to disciplinary concerns are really meaningless in terms of the wider, and >>>> very dire, issues facing our collective human and animal future, which I >>>> start talking about later on in the essay. >>>> >>>> A basic concern of the essay is that poetry often gets defined merely >>>> by, from, or through its technical features. I might cite, as an example of >>>> this, Bill (whom I admire, btw) saying "The line IS poetry." >>>> >>>> An unspoken, but hopefully not too implicit part of the essay, is my >>>> conviction that whatever poetry is, it is larger than its technical >>>> debates, attempted definitions, and its ostensible "parts" (like line, >>>> rhythm, sound -- all of which are merely guesses at conceptualizing >>>> something we don't really understand). The guesses and debates are their >>>> own thing; the thing we don't understand is something else -- hence my >>>> admittedly rebarbative assertion that the line is not a feature of poetry. >>>> "The line" is something we pretend to understand and make distinctions and >>>> assertions about. While poetry is something we don't understand altogether. >>>> >>>> *The basic point the essay makes is that whatever poetry is, and >>>> whatever its minor (and at times cataclysmic-seeming) technical debates and >>>> disagreements, poetry (both mainstream and >>>> experimental/avant-garde/innovative) has had, since the early 20th century >>>> in the US (and the late 19th century in France), more of an interest in its >>>> own debates about technique and technicalities than an interest in seeing >>>> itself as a mode of reparative ethical action.* >>>> >>>> And I'm trying to suggest that the former blinds us to the >>>> possibilities of the latter. There is an institutional tendency to focus on >>>> and debate poetry's technical features and ignore poetry's wider potential >>>> role as mode of ethical and political reparative action. I really think >>>> issues about the line are not worth debating or making books about. Too >>>> much other work to be done with our energies. >>>> >>>> *The real concern of my essay (and this post) is not the line or these >>>> debates, but the fact that we are living through the 6th largest extinction >>>> of animals (and possibly our own) in the nature record.* >>>> >>>> I was given 750 words to disagree with the premise of the anthology for >>>> which I'd been solicited. Because of limited word count, figured I should >>>> use a provocative tone. :) >>>> >>>> Anyway, thanks for letting me stick my nose in the door here and say >>>> hi.... :) >>>> >>>> Gabe >>>> PS, in case you'd like to see what I meant by the larger issues and >>>> work before us, it's found here: >>>> http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_broken_thing.php >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> **** >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> **** >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > **** > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Oct 30 04:35:31 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 09:35:31 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Louise Gluck In-Reply-To: <28A7E062-BF36-4653-A92A-0FCF6E409877@ripon.edu> References: <28A7E062-BF36-4653-A92A-0FCF6E409877@ripon.edu> Message-ID: By 'feel' I probably meant, to allow a certain empathy to arise in order to share the same experience. You therefore project your own vision onto hers while letting yourself be led by her 'voice.' and she leads you to a deserted land into which you were sucked by the wish of the Other who finally drops you in the precise moment in which you accept the invitation. The Other thus creates three unplanned moments scanned by wish, offer, disappointment. A very common experience to many buyers subdued to the manipulating actions of the *Hidden Persuaders*, the perfect is the concatenation of his time-machine. On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 11:34 PM, David Graham wrote: > I appreciate this response. But I suppose that if one either "feels it" > or not, with Gluck, put me down as one who mostly does not. > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Oct 29, 2011, at 7:19 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > I like Gluck's voice. I think it is something you feel or you do not. What > she says is right, similar to Leopardi in this context - just to mention a > monster in poetry. The fact that when the event - onto which you have > projected your highest expectations and hopes - (for Leopardi when Sunday - > the free day, the day to celebrate arrives; and for Gluck the fact that > people are in love as long as it is not allowed them to love: thus > depicting the fundamental paradox that leads to isolation) finally happens, > the protagonists can't but be disappointed, be it by the same event or by > the realization that their idealistic projection is out of order. > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tomasocarthaigh at yahoo.com Sun Oct 30 05:38:29 2011 From: tomasocarthaigh at yahoo.com (=?utf-8?B?VG9tw6FzIMOTIEPDoXJ0aGFpZ2g=?=) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 02:38:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Samhain... Happy Halloween Message-ID: <1319967509.31658.YahooMailClassic@web161605.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> The feast of Halloween is upon us, and let us celebrate the little pagan festival that the Irish gave to the Americans who made it into a global carnival. Below are some links to stories, poems and more stuff on the season... LOWLANDS CRYPT The Lowlands Listserve have a collection of spooky stories which will entertain and scare the readers... http://lowlands-l.net/crypt/ Samhain - A Haiku - Tom?s ? C?rthaigh For one night only! Not a shop sale, but the dead Visit the living. "Samhain Upon Us" results for ?samhain? Halloween Poem: "Samhain Upon Us" - Celtic Pagan New Year to Halloween, or Samhain, was the Celtic New Year before the advent of Christianity in Ireland. For an hour the gates of the Otherworld opened and thosse dead could once more live among the living, look in on family, or settle old scores with enemies. Masks were worn to confuse evil spirits, and the tradition spread to the New World and around the globe with the Irish, Scots and Manx diasporas. Stories of spirits, the bean sidh - banshee, the p?ca - pooka and other creatures of the otherword contunie to scare and entertain to this present day. For an hour they walk among us Forefathers, who now are dead The gates the otherworld closed Are for an hour open instead Some look upon their families To show that for them they still care But there are other spirits free With worse intent, on the loose there! A spooky night it is to come Start and end of the Celtic Year Masks worn confusing evil spirits Games played, a time of good cheer Dont fear the dead: only an hour For which it is them they are free The dead, them they will not harm you Only the living can, like me!!! Boooo!!!! Ghost Stories from North Longford - Tom?s ? C?rthaigh www.writingsinrhyme.com The Hungry Grass Old Clonbroney Sitting There Saying Nothing Rattling Buckets Cant Be Seen Dead Now and their Beliefs With Them Dead Souls And Black Dogs "a person with a good book is never alone... a writer until they've written one is never at peace" - www.writingsinrhyme.com??::: Add me on Facebook ::: My YouTube Videos? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Oct 30 06:20:07 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 06:20:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] anthology In-Reply-To: <6730831.1319814955356.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <6730831.1319814955356.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Yes, simply give me the big names, the influential poets, the ones who best represent a style, movement, whatever. That's what I want in a survey of 20th Century American Poetry. But why have ten or twenty like that? --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Oct 30 10:17:33 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 15:17:33 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] anthology In-Reply-To: <4101B1FE0324D548B4795FB8FD30FE2A013A813C@sjcexchange.SJC.EDU> References: <4101B1FE0324D548B4795FB8FD30FE2A013A813C@sjcexchange.SJC.EDU> Message-ID: Congratulations! On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 1:13 PM, Barone, Dennis wrote: > The anthology to see and to talk about might not be the Penguin one, but > New Hungers for Old: One-Hundred Years of Italian-American Poetry -- just > out from Star Cloud Press (www.starcloudpress.com). There will be a > large group reading for this book of one hundred poets from Arturo > Giovannitti to Elaine Equi on January 4th at Saint Marks in NYC. "New > Hungers for Old underscores a distinctive intersection of heritage and the > larger culture in the flavor of its innovations. The dazzling variety of > poems share an infatuation with life itself [...] It is a landmark > collection that is essential reading," according to Josephine G. Hendin. > And I might add that I am the editor of the volume but since there are 100 > voices in addition to mine (Mary Caponegro wrote the introduction), then > this brief message can't really be called self-promotion. Dennis > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Sun Oct 30 11:31:49 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 10:31:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] anthology In-Reply-To: References: <6730831.1319814955356.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4EAD6DE5.7020102@louisiana.edu> I'd be the worst person to put together an anthology--my reading is scattershot, my preoccupations are idiosyncratic, my attention span is short, my temperament is both lazy and selfish, and above all, no one cares. Successful anthologies are put out by people with the patience to wade through quite a bit of poetry that they don't like. That's not me. On the other hand, here are five anthologies that have meant a lot to me, for a variety of reasons. The Old Mother Goose Nursery Rhyme Book. What do I hate about poetry I hate? It lacks a sense of music, a sense of image, a sense of action, and a sense of humor. Here's where I discovered that poetry could have all those, though of course I didn't know at the time I was internalizing the periodic table of English versification and tropology. Oscar Williams, A Little Treasure of Modern Poetry. This was in all the used-book shops around the time, in my teens, I first decided I was a poet, and somebody probably told me that I should think about reading some actual poetry. Williams was a Russian immigrant who evidently spent his whole life putting together anthologies, and I still have tons of those poems in the back of my mind. (And in one of his volumes he had a section on "American Indian poetry." _That_ opened my eyes!) After all these years I just checked out the Wikipedia article on Williams--it's worth a read when you have a minute. Whomever--the stinking Norton Anthology. You know it. You hate it. But at some point I got that book (brand-new but musty at the same time) dumped in my lap. And I learned two things: a lot of this stuff I hate; and: a lot of this stuff I love. (And almost all of the stuff that had emerged since Oscar Williams, and quite a bit of the earlier stuff, too, was perfectly unknown to me.) Above all, it was a place I could go to when I stumbled on a name someone dropped, to see who John Clare was, or Thomas Hardy, or Paul Lawrence Dunbar, or A. D. Hope. (I might have met with some of those names in a poetry class if I'd ever taken a poetry class, but I never did. I wonder why.) Al Poulin, Contemporary American Poetry. The first edition of this only had the work of a few poets, devoting quite a few pages to each. At first I felt cheated; then I realized--maybe unconsciously at first--that I was being invited into a labor of love. Subsequent editions had the feel of /adding discovered omissions to a personally vital core/ (whoops, I forgot one! whoops, here's another one I forgot!) though over the years it turned into just another big gawky anthology. The first edition, though, gave me some poets I really needed to read at greater length to appreciate--Roethke, Berryman, and above all, Creeley, with whom I later grappled (I can't honestly say "studied") at Buffalo. Roy L. French, M.A., Recent Poetry from America, England, Ireland, and Canada. "Recent" in this case is 1926, and that's the grabber. This is not a book of my childhood, but a used-book-shop thing I picked up in a great shop in Vermont or New Hampshire about ten years ago. I keep picking up the latest things--The Anthology of Rap, Women Poets in the 21st Century, World Poetry: An Anthology (can you imagine calling your book "World Poetry: An Anthology"?), etc., etc.--but in general they leave me flat. They provide learning experiences, not deep pleasures (though I have no doubt they provide deep pleasures for _someone_). I suspect I'll wind up with that ridiculous Dove anthology (I do like the sound of that, because it reminds me of washing dishes) on my shelf. But what really lights my afterburners is discovering something like this--a record of the tastes and excitements of a time when poetry was a very different enterprise. It's full of poets I (probably very sensibly) haven't heard of, lots of them women. Its chapter headings, which would be boring today, seem thrilling in historical context: "The Preservers of the Old Traditions"; "The Makers of a New Tradition"; "The Lyricists"; "Poets of the Far Corners"; "The Experimentalists"; "Light Verse"; "American Folk Poetry"; "Contemporary Poets of England, Ireland, and Canada"; a section of "Special Studies, Questions, and Notes"; a batch of appendices ("The Nature of Poetry," "Topical Studies for Review," "Hints for the Study of Groups of Poems," "List of Books and Magazines"); and three indexes, for authors, titles, and "Editorial Material." There are quite a few others whose titles I can't call to mind, but that flipped my switches at some point in my life. But here's my point: I think talking about anthologies that actually mean something to us is more interesting than trashing anthologies that don't. I'd like to hear from other people about anthologies that sank a deep hook in them. Jerry On 10/30/2011 5:20 AM, bob grumman wrote: > Yes, simply give me the big names, the influential poets, the ones who > best represent a style, movement, whatever. That's what I want in a > survey of 20th Century American Poetry. > But why have ten or twenty like that? > --Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Oct 30 11:58:27 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 11:58:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line Message-ID: <8205433.1319990307741.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Sun Oct 30 15:58:01 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 14:58:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: Hi Mark, *Arable land: You got it exactly backward. Plant agriculture uses less land to yield an equal amount of nutrition as slaughter agriculture, meaning not only the redress of moral wrong done against animals, but the redress of famine caused by inefficient land use. 2/3rds of current arable land is used for meat production. Only 8% of current arable land is used for human consumption. Meat consumption uses 60% more arable land than plant agriculture for the same nutritional value. Health problems associated with meat diet: toxins contained in meat, obesity, cancer, heart disease, etc. *Scale: Yes, you can fine-tune the question of harm caused by the consumption of meat to extreme cases in order to reduce it to absurdities (your examples of wood for houses being taken from streams thus impacting salmon, urban cows in India eating things, this or that farmer in Africa fencing against elephants, etc). But this is willful ignorance to a problem about whose causation there is wide, nearly unanimous, consensus among the global scientific community. We are dealing with a single massive problem: global factory farming; the statistics of global meat consumption in the past 20 years show a radical increase in consumption that does not scale with population increase. People have never before consumed meat, per capita, on such a scale. Per capita consumption has skyrocketed. This per statistics from dozens of organizations. There is one large culprit. All the little problems you cite are nothing compared to this. Ethicopolitical: Famine and human starvation is related to most arable land being used to raise animals for slaughter. Both human animals and non-human animals will benefit from people simply reducing their meat consumption. Start by trying to reduce it by half. And eventually trying to asymptote-out one's consumption. One can stop altogether if they put their minds to it. It is not easy to change how one eats, but it is a simple way to put one's liberal humanism (or liberal post-humanism) where one's mouth is. Moral: The need to intellectually and emotionally understand that the meat on the plate (tasty as it is) was a recently living fellow being who wanted to live and feared and suffered in its death -- and whose death the eater directly contributes to and benefits from. Some surmise that birds and other mammals actually grieve and fear far more deeply than humans. What we do know is that their worlds matter deeply to them, that they suffer profoundly in the gulags and concentration camps people put them in, and that they know they are going to be slaughtered. And it's deeply wrong. The video: was not a shock video. It's a simple interview with an astrophysicist about expanding our circle of empathy. Poets who do this well: Ariana Reines (The Cow, prev. mentioned). Whitman LoG passim. Who are others, I wonder? Gabe On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 10:58 AM, wrote: > Gabe: It pains me to comment on what you clearly mean as a compliment, but > here goes. In much of the US irony is considered a vice and a meanness. > While it can be wielded as a weapon (or, as I think I do, played as a > game), in itself it's neither vicious nor mean. Irony requires the holding > of two contradictory thoughts in mind at the same time. Ideally one applies > it even to causes and concepts with which one is in sympathy. It's at the > heart of thought. Without it one becomes victim to one's own starry eyes, > or to the peddlers of simple solutions, and to the extent that the lack is > a national failing it gives us the tea party and the occupy movement and > may well give us a government run more thoroughly by lunatics. > > It's also, as a New Yorker and a Jew, my native language. > > So here are a very few bits of irony about the rights of animals.: > > Like wooden houses? Chances are the wood was harvested from the watersheds > of salmon streams, causing them to silt up, thereby destroying the unique > populations that bred in them. Destroying forests is not real helpful in > other ways, too. > > In Africa, where safari tourism is a major source of income, subsistence > farmers routinely kill wild herbivores like elephants in order be able to > feed their children. > > There is one large group of traditional vegetarians in the world, members > of certain castes in India. Large numbers of unexploited cows wander about, > devouring food supplies. This doesn't have much effect on the increasing > percentage of the population that no longer depends on subsistence > agriculture. Those folks take to eating meat as they become more > prosperous, the more prosperous the more meat. This is the pattern > everywhere that more people can afford it. Much of that prosperity depends > on the carrying capacity of the land (and will do so increasingly as > population increases), which, as you point out, is reduced by large-scale > meat production. Ironic, isn't it? > > What you call arable is often only so at a considerable stretch. The Tonto > Valley in Arizona, for instance, is as dry as a bone. Sometimes it doesn't > rain at all for a year or two, and it never rains more than a few inches a > year. But the sun shines all the time and frosts are rare , so, add water > and you have the largest source of iceberg lettuce, which is essentially a > membrane for holding water, in the country. Evaporation rates from the > fields is very high. That water used to make its way to the Sea of Cortez, > via the Colorado River. Other hyper-productive "arable" land in the > watershed includes the Imperial Valley, also irrigated from the Colorado, > which now grows mostly fodder but in a perfect world might grow vegetables. > The irrigation system is converting to the drip method--much of the acreage > already has--but that doesn't stop, it merely slows the process. Less fresh > water flowing through the Colorado and its tributaries means that in most > years no water reaches the Sea of Cortez, and sea water has invaded the > aquifer in the delta, once highly productive and now an immense salt flat. > The salinity of the Sea itself has risen, killing off large amounts of sea > life. The impact on fish eaters and harvesters is immediate, but even if > they too turned vegetarian the sea would still be too salty for the > creatures in it. The same is true of the Great Valley in California, the > most productive farmland in the country, only arable because of intensive > irrigation from desert rivers or the massive diversion of water from wetter > ecosystems. > I haven't even mentioned the impact of fertilizer runoff and sedimentation > in these systems. > > The problem isn't that people eat too many cows, it's that there are too > many people. No animal has a larger ecological footprint than the folks you > love, even if they live on celery and weave their shoes from chaff. > > Most people like animal protein, which I for one eat with my full sense of > irony intact. Some people fail to thrive without it--hey, we don't all > metabolize foods in the same way. But let's gtrant that the majority could > live on a carefully-planned vegetarian diet. It doesn't, for a variety of > reasons, including the position of meat in their cultures. The problem, for > those who would like to see a vegetarian world, is how to get from here to > there, beyond individual conversions by shock videos. One of the ironies of > our common existence is that humans can rationalize almost anything. > > Best, > > Mark > > -----Original Message----- > From: gabriel gudding ** > Sent: Oct 30, 2011 12:48 AM > To: NewPoetry List ** > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line > > To this notion of empathy and literature, been listening to Steven > Pinker's latest book, about trends in declining violence, and was intrigued > by his calling literature an "empathy technology" --- in that it allows us > to imagine the lives and minds of other persons and animals. He correlates > the rise of the realist novel, eg, with the advent of 19thC reform > movements in Europe and the US. Kind of interesting. > > I think there is some role poetry can play (and has) in this long effort > to help wake a radical empathy for non-human animals. > > Love this clip from Neil deGrasse Tyson: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL6hj6xLE8w > [BTW, thank you, Annie, for the welcome. > And having known Mark online for now 13 years (?), and having had dinner > with him, and worked with him on some translations for his amazing > anthology of Cuban poetry, I can say with confidence he's one of the least > ironic people I've met. :)] > > On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 10:36 PM, wrote: > >> Moi? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Halvard Johnson ** >> Sent: Oct 29, 2011 4:06 PM >> To: NewPoetry List ** >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >> >> Mark, you're being naughty. >> >> >> Serving the tri-state area. >> >> Hal >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> >> halvard at gmail.com >> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >> http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >> >> Remains To Be Seen >> *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) >> ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) >> , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems >> *, *Mainly Black >> , *Obras P?blicas >> ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets >> ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones >> ; **Tango Bouquet >> ; **Theory of Harmony >> ; **Rapsodie espagnole >> ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway >> ; **The Sonnet Project >> ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter >> Journey ; **Eclipse >> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan >> ;* >> *Transparencies & Projections >> * >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 2:02 PM, wrote: >> >>> Leather-bound? >>> >>> If the same number of animals would need to be fed they would use up >>> precisely the same amount of land, presuming that they ate the same >>> industrially-produced crops. If they foraged instead on whatever grows >>> uncultivated it would take a great deal more land. Easy answers are more >>> fun. Sorry. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: gabriel gudding ** >>> Sent: Oct 29, 2011 2:55 PM >>> To: NewPoetry List ** >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>> >>> We would use less arable land than we do now. I think the figures are >>> 60% less. Will look. >>> >>> A good example of a poetry book that does this kind of work while still >>> being brilliant poetry is Ariana Reines' _The Cow_ (Fence 2006). >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 1:23 PM, wrote: >>> >>>> If we all stopped eating animals the first necessity would be massive >>>> slaughter, or all those gas-spewing beasts would destroy every bit of >>>> vegetation on the planet. Thouigh I suuppose we could neuter them all, so >>>> that after they've decimated the flora the surviving humans could begin >>>> repopulating. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: gabriel gudding ** >>>> Sent: Oct 29, 2011 12:52 PM >>>> To: NewPoetry List ** >>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>> >>>> Bill, sorry for the mix-up. >>>> >>>> Alex, I understand the pleasure in using a blurb-sized excerpt to >>>> stimulate conversation. Maybe that's partly what blurbs are for: give >>>> people something to argue about. In part, that's my point. Art is often >>>> more of an activity of making distinctions internal to art -- in order to >>>> distinguish oneself, one's school, or one's viewpoint, or as a testimony of >>>> one's taste -- than in doing something else, finding pleasure in something >>>> else (am thinking here of the work of Pierre Bourdieu, for instance, >>>> specifically The Field of Cultural Production). >>>> >>>> By which I'm not saying the discussion of the blurb wasn't trying to do >>>> something useful. Just that there is a tendency to struggle for distinction >>>> using features that, over time, become more and more technical. >>>> >>>> Regarding yr response to the point about ethical & political reparative >>>> action as an important component of poetry/literature: I understand your >>>> concern there; there is a history of debate about it. My concern is less >>>> with what you call the future of humanity and more with the reality of how >>>> we are treating animals now. >>>> >>>> This is the 6th largest mass extinction in the natural record. And we >>>> are strangely unaware of this -- and if aware we are on the whole >>>> apathetic. Directly related to this mass extinction is the factory farming >>>> of animals. It is the single largest factor in global warming, directly >>>> related to a meat-based diet. Humans kill about 60 billion animals each >>>> year for their meat, 10 billion annually in the US alone. >>>> >>>> We need, for instance, to stop eating animals. And we need to begin >>>> awakening our own capacities for loving-kindness -- extending that >>>> mindstate into the realities of our own diet, our own taste for meat. If >>>> someone can't stop altogether, then just eat half of what was eaten before. >>>> The next year, eat half of that. >>>> >>>> Poems and essays and conversations that help widen our understanding of >>>> subjectivity and awaken our empathy to include animals as individuals who >>>> should be accorded bodily and mental sovereignty, whose lives and >>>> relationships matter to them and because of that should matter to us -- >>>> matter to the point where we stop eating them -- is one example of the >>>> kinds of poems & debates I can get behind. That is a worthwhile project, to >>>> my mind. >>>> >>>> Anthologies debating and making statements about the line strike me as >>>> a waste of resources and time -- unless they contain some excoriation of >>>> the myopia historically endemic to art and a reminder there is a world of >>>> suffering out there beyond our technical myopia. >>>> >>>> Certainly it's possible to do both. Literary history suggests however >>>> that technical concerns tend to so stimulate people into delusional >>>> struggles that they forget about other stuff. (Am thinking, re this last >>>> assertion, of the work, again, of Pierre Bourdieu and to some extent Jed >>>> Rasula). >>>> >>>> On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 9:57 PM, Alexander Dickow < >>>> alexdickow9 at yahoo.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Welcome, Gabe! As stated here earlier by a number of us, there's a >>>>> great deal of esteem here for your work, and you'll be perhaps relieved to >>>>> know that all were quite conscious that a mere blurb-sized excerpt was >>>>> likely not enough to judge an argument. Although I think there are indirect >>>>> ways in which preoccupation with form connects to the ethical concerns you >>>>> mention, just as I am reciprocally a bit skeptical toward the claims made >>>>> for poetry in the name of ethics, which often appears to me as a decidedly >>>>> meek version of the Romantic ideal of transformative literature (ie, poetry >>>>> transforms individuals if not "the World", which is just a way of setting >>>>> one's sights a great deal lower than originally intended, while claiming >>>>> that the fundamental ambition hasn't changed). >>>>> I think about technical matters; you've read Caramboles; am I >>>>> unconcerned by the future of humanity? I'm not sure. On the other hand, I >>>>> wouldn't make an anthology on the line either. >>>>> Welcome to NewPo, in any event. Try not to scuffle with Bob and >>>>> Halvard, and be nice to Anny, Jim (aka Finnegan) and Amy (King), and you'll >>>>> be just fine. And when people quote Frost...let them ;) >>>>> Amicalement, >>>>> Alex >>>>> >>>>> www.alexdickow.net/blog/ >>>>> >>>>> les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin >>>>> merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *From:* gabriel gudding >>>>> *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> *Sent:* Friday, October 28, 2011 10:44 PM >>>>> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>>> >>>>> Having learned the line/fetish essay was being discussed here, and >>>>> having read some of the comments about it in your archives, I thought I >>>>> could subscribe to New-Poetry and clarify what was meant in the essay. Hope >>>>> that's okay. >>>>> >>>>> This might be a nice chance to do so, since the editors of that >>>>> anthology only gave the solicited contributors 750 words to convey >>>>> something insightful about "the line." Not easy. I took about 730 words. >>>>> Not much room for nuanced explanation, barely room for frank assertion. >>>>> >>>>> By saying that the line is not a feature of poetry I wasn't suggesting >>>>> lines aren't found in poems, nor was I making any assertions about prose >>>>> poetry versus metrical or free verse. >>>>> >>>>> The essay doesn't suggest the line should be abolished or that it >>>>> originated with Modernists or fascists etc. Nor was I criticizing any >>>>> particular kind of line (eg, metrical, as was suggested) or the notion of >>>>> the linebreak. >>>>> >>>>> The essay is mostly making the assertion that whatever the technical >>>>> phenomena are that get called "the line" at any particular point in >>>>> literary history (eg, hypertrophic lines associated w/ strophic verse, >>>>> prose lines, iambic pentameter, this or that technical description), such >>>>> arguments (1) really do not matter in any way extrinsic to specifically >>>>> disciplinary concerns, and (2) any ways that they *do* matter >>>>> specific to disciplinary concerns are really meaningless in terms of the >>>>> wider, and very dire, issues facing our collective human and animal future, >>>>> which I start talking about later on in the essay. >>>>> >>>>> A basic concern of the essay is that poetry often gets defined merely >>>>> by, from, or through its technical features. I might cite, as an example of >>>>> this, Bill (whom I admire, btw) saying "The line IS poetry." >>>>> >>>>> An unspoken, but hopefully not too implicit part of the essay, is my >>>>> conviction that whatever poetry is, it is larger than its technical >>>>> debates, attempted definitions, and its ostensible "parts" (like line, >>>>> rhythm, sound -- all of which are merely guesses at conceptualizing >>>>> something we don't really understand). The guesses and debates are their >>>>> own thing; the thing we don't understand is something else -- hence my >>>>> admittedly rebarbative assertion that the line is not a feature of poetry. >>>>> "The line" is something we pretend to understand and make distinctions and >>>>> assertions about. While poetry is something we don't understand altogether. >>>>> >>>>> *The basic point the essay makes is that whatever poetry is, and >>>>> whatever its minor (and at times cataclysmic-seeming) technical debates and >>>>> disagreements, poetry (both mainstream and >>>>> experimental/avant-garde/innovative) has had, since the early 20th century >>>>> in the US (and the late 19th century in France), more of an interest in its >>>>> own debates about technique and technicalities than an interest in seeing >>>>> itself as a mode of reparative ethical action.* >>>>> >>>>> And I'm trying to suggest that the former blinds us to the >>>>> possibilities of the latter. There is an institutional tendency to focus on >>>>> and debate poetry's technical features and ignore poetry's wider potential >>>>> role as mode of ethical and political reparative action. I really think >>>>> issues about the line are not worth debating or making books about. Too >>>>> much other work to be done with our energies. >>>>> >>>>> *The real concern of my essay (and this post) is not the line or these >>>>> debates, but the fact that we are living through the 6th largest extinction >>>>> of animals (and possibly our own) in the nature record.* >>>>> >>>>> I was given 750 words to disagree with the premise of the anthology >>>>> for which I'd been solicited. Because of limited word count, figured I >>>>> should use a provocative tone. :) >>>>> >>>>> Anyway, thanks for letting me stick my nose in the door here and say >>>>> hi.... :) >>>>> >>>>> Gabe >>>>> PS, in case you'd like to see what I meant by the larger issues and >>>>> work before us, it's found here: >>>>> http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_broken_thing.php >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>>> >>>> **** >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> **** >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> **** >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > **** > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Oct 30 17:54:18 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 22:54:18 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] the Poets' Corner Message-ID: The present update is to celebrate the Birthday of *Professor Cesare Gagliardi*, of the University of Verona, the best linguist in Italy * * *with New Poets:* *Andre Spears * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=400 *Mike J. Gallagher * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=401 *A.D. Winans * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=402 *John Gery * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=381 *Diana Magallon * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=404 *Taylor Graham * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=405 *Marc Vincenz *** http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=267 *Michael Gregory * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=407 *John Curl * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=408 *Rosemary Starace * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=409 *Elizabeth Bodien * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=410 *Marilyn Hazelton * http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=411 *and to honor the memory of our Friend Frank Parker* *Frank Parker* old time religion http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3680 and Frank Parker?s page: http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=34 * * *with new poems by already featured Poets:* *David Howard* forwards a photograph by his son: Luc Howard http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3685 *Sheila E. Murphy* Apt http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3707 *John Warner Smith* Knowing http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3708 Songs of Diaspora http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3709 Taking http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3710 Torched http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3711 Someone Moved http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3712 *James Cervantes* On a Winter Morning http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3726 *Jerry McGuire* JERRY MCGUIRE?S 20,956TH DREAM http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3727 THE EXCEPTION-A VIRTUAL WEBSITE http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3815 *Charles Martin* ocean http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3749 September Series http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3827 new york city night, two places: one Wall Street http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3869 *Richard Dillon* ONE YARD ON THE EDGE OF A YARD http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3757 *Marton Koppany* Hungarian Masterpiece Summer 2011 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3759 *Skip Fox* Floral Risers http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3762 Blow Back http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3763 *Jesse Glass* Haircut Song http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3768 *Barry Alpert* CONTE d?Hiver http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3802 LES AMOURS D?ASTREE ET DE CELADON http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3803 *Bob Grumman* Mathemakuical Celebration of Reading, No. 1 http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3856 *Elizabeth Smither* The mountain http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3870 Grandmother, grandson http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3871 Shaped camellia bush http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3872 A train approaches National Park station http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3873 Leafing http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3874 *The index of the Poets' Corner:* http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content *trick or read, * *Anny Ballardini* -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Oct 30 18:31:05 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 23:31:05 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am with Gabriel, a vegetarian for the past 30 years. In full health and getting fat if I do not try to limit that tasty chocolate with nuts... On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 8:58 PM, gabriel gudding wrote: > Hi Mark, > > *Arable land: You got it exactly backward. Plant agriculture uses less > land to yield an equal amount of nutrition as slaughter agriculture, > meaning not only the redress of moral wrong done against animals, but the > redress of famine caused by inefficient land use. 2/3rds of current arable > land is used for meat production. Only 8% of current arable land is used > for human consumption. Meat consumption uses 60% more arable land than > plant agriculture for the same nutritional value. Health problems > associated with meat diet: toxins contained in meat, obesity, cancer, heart > disease, etc. > > *Scale: Yes, you can fine-tune the question of harm caused by the > consumption of meat to extreme cases in order to reduce it to absurdities > (your examples of wood for houses being taken from streams thus impacting > salmon, urban cows in India eating things, this or that farmer in Africa > fencing against elephants, etc). But this is willful ignorance to a problem > about whose causation there is wide, nearly unanimous, consensus among the > global scientific community. We are dealing with a single massive problem: > global factory farming; the statistics of global meat consumption in the > past 20 years show a radical increase in consumption that does not scale > with population increase. People have never before consumed meat, per > capita, on such a scale. Per capita consumption has skyrocketed. This per > statistics from dozens of organizations. There is one large culprit. All > the little problems you cite are nothing compared to this. > > Ethicopolitical: Famine and human starvation is related to most arable > land being used to raise animals for slaughter. Both human animals and > non-human animals will benefit from people simply reducing their meat > consumption. Start by trying to reduce it by half. And eventually trying to > asymptote-out one's consumption. One can stop altogether if they put their > minds to it. It is not easy to change how one eats, but it is a simple way > to put one's liberal humanism (or liberal post-humanism) where one's mouth > is. > > Moral: The need to intellectually and emotionally understand that the meat > on the plate (tasty as it is) was a recently living fellow being who wanted > to live and feared and suffered in its death -- and whose death the eater > directly contributes to and benefits from. Some surmise that birds and > other mammals actually grieve and fear far more deeply than humans. What we > do know is that their worlds matter deeply to them, that they suffer > profoundly in the gulags and concentration camps people put them in, and > that they know they are going to be slaughtered. And it's deeply wrong. > > The video: was not a shock video. It's a simple interview with an > astrophysicist about expanding our circle of empathy. > > Poets who do this well: Ariana Reines (The Cow, prev. mentioned). Whitman > LoG passim. Who are others, I wonder? > > Gabe > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Oct 30 20:39:18 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 20:39:18 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <33171372.1320021558979.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Oct 30 20:39:59 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 20:39:59 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <15385666.1320021599231.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Sun Oct 30 22:48:59 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 21:48:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <33171372.1320021558979.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <33171372.1320021558979.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: The whole arable thing is settled science, which I trust, as I trust people who know better than I. The what to do issue is, I agree, tough. One, change ideas/precepts about slaughter: Campaigns are underway. Thankfully the talk about this is finally making its way into livingrooms and kitchens, and even into poetry (and poetry listservs, it seems :)). Also, changing practices/percepts: We can each eat less meat, trying eventually to stop, and work on changing our relationship to bodily sensations around food and our expectations for certain tastes and bodily sensations. Cultivate empathy toward all animals, not just dogs and cats. Work to reach the point where hunting, slaughter farming, and eating meat are seen for what they are: unnecessary, immoral practices. Leaflet, give talks, teach courses, write essays and poems. Direct action is good too: I know people who would chain themselves to CAFO barns; a person in town here goes to meet local farmers where we live after asking them if she can come talk to them about what they do and see if they're open to having their minds changed. They say yes. There is reason to be hopeful. I've been listening to Steven Pinker's tour de force about the steady decline of violence in developing countries since the late 17th Century and the rise of liberal humanism. We already treat animals far less violently than we used to. We've stopped behemoths of injustice before. It takes a while but a concerted effort wins out eventually. One day meat eating will go the way of smoking. People will still do it, but it will not be considered something good or careful to do, and it will asymptote out. RE "humane": The current thought (as far as I've seen it) about "humane treatment" runs this way: there is nothing humane about slaughtering a being, discarding its life and taking its body from it. No matter how you slice it (the pun is warranted, sorry), it's gruesome and murderous and wrong. We need to call a spade a spade and not doll it up with euphemisms designed to make us feel better. Too, there are some researchers who see a causal correlation between "humane" rhetoric, ostensibly humane slaughter and an *increase* in slaughter rates. So, if the end is slaughter, It's theft, murder, and greed wrapped into one. To eat meat is to exercise greed at the cost of another's life. We need to start seeing that and talking more about it. It'll change eventually. I've learned of some other poets doing work like this, expanding our circle of empathy -- helping to see animals as beings who should be accorded bodily and mental sovereignty: Ashley Capps Juliana Spahr Jack Collom Oni Buchanan Tao Lin (one of his only that I've seen) Alison Titus (I think) Gerald Stern Ariana Reines Cara Benson Jack Collom Whitman Philip Jenks Franz Wright Merrill Gilfillan Anny: 30 years! That's wonderful. How many animals you've not eaten! :) On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 7:39 PM, wrote: > Again: Define arable. Not the same as sustainable, whatever it's used to > grow, fodder or fruit. So let's talk about land that would be used for > agriculture if we all became vegetarians. Grazing lands are mostly > agriculturally marginal at best. That which isn't would have to be > intensively cultivated. And all those minor things you dismiss are in fact > pretty major. Details do have a way of clouding one's vision. > > But the issues aren't about the sciences you appeal to. Try sociology and > psychology. We can know very clearly what we think ought to be done, that > doesn't mean we can map a way (a projective graph is just a fantasy) to get > there. Though it may be a pretty thought. > > In the interim, one could at least proscribe the horrible current > practices in favor of more humane treatment. There are relatively few > cultural barriers to this. > > But let's remember that human civilizations developed to distance us from > the horrific lives o0f beasts, who in the wild lead lives of constant > terror, those that grieve, constantly, and die painfully 100% of the time, > mostly by being eaten alive. It's not as if there's a peaceable kingdom out > there. > > Enough. I hate simple solutions to complex problems, and I think beyond > treatment that's as humane as possible there's little we can agree upon in > terms of what's possible to accomplish. > > Beat, > > Mark > > -----Original Message----- > From: gabriel gudding ** > Sent: Oct 30, 2011 3:58 PM > To: NewPoetry List ** > Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > Hi Mark, > > *Arable land: You got it exactly backward. Plant agriculture uses less > land to yield an equal amount of nutrition as slaughter agriculture, > meaning not only the redress of moral wrong done against animals, but the > redress of famine caused by inefficient land use. 2/3rds of current arable > land is used for meat production. Only 8% of current arable land is used > for human consumption. Meat consumption uses 60% more arable land than > plant agriculture for the same nutritional value. Health problems > associated with meat diet: toxins contained in meat, obesity, cancer, heart > disease, etc. > > *Scale: Yes, you can fine-tune the question of harm caused by the > consumption of meat to extreme cases in order to reduce it to absurdities > (your examples of wood for houses being taken from streams thus impacting > salmon, urban cows in India eating things, this or that farmer in Africa > fencing against elephants, etc). But this is willful ignorance to a problem > about whose causation there is wide, nearly unanimous, consensus among the > global scientific community. We are dealing with a single massive problem: > global factory farming; the statistics of global meat consumption in the > past 20 years show a radical increase in consumption that does not scale > with population increase. People have never before consumed meat, per > capita, on such a scale. Per capita consumption has skyrocketed. This per > statistics from dozens of organizations. There is one large culprit. All > the little problems you cite are nothing compared to this. > > Ethicopolitical: Famine and human starvation is related to most arable > land being used to raise animals for slaughter. Both human animals and > non-human animals will benefit from people simply reducing their meat > consumption. Start by trying to reduce it by half. And eventually trying to > asymptote-out one's consumption. One can stop altogether if they put their > minds to it. It is not easy to change how one eats, but it is a simple way > to put one's liberal humanism (or liberal post-humanism) where one's mouth > is. > > Moral: The need to intellectually and emotionally understand that the meat > on the plate (tasty as it is) was a recently living fellow being who wanted > to live and feared and suffered in its death -- and whose death the eater > directly contributes to and benefits from. Some surmise that birds and > other mammals actually grieve and fear far more deeply than humans. What we > do know is that their worlds matter deeply to them, that they suffer > profoundly in the gulags and concentration camps people put them in, and > that they know they are going to be slaughtered. And it's deeply wrong. > > The video: was not a shock video. It's a simple interview with an > astrophysicist about expanding our circle of empathy. > > Poets who do this well: Ariana Reines (The Cow, prev. mentioned). Whitman > LoG passim. Who are others, I wonder? > > Gabe > > > > > On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 10:58 AM, wrote: > >> Gabe: It pains me to comment on what you clearly mean as a compliment, >> but here goes. In much of the US irony is considered a vice and a meanness. >> While it can be wielded as a weapon (or, as I think I do, played as a >> game), in itself it's neither vicious nor mean. Irony requires the holding >> of two contradictory thoughts in mind at the same time. Ideally one applies >> it even to causes and concepts with which one is in sympathy. It's at the >> heart of thought. Without it one becomes victim to one's own starry eyes, >> or to the peddlers of simple solutions, and to the extent that the lack is >> a national failing it gives us the tea party and the occupy movement and >> may well give us a government run more thoroughly by lunatics. >> >> It's also, as a New Yorker and a Jew, my native language. >> >> So here are a very few bits of irony about the rights of animals.: >> >> Like wooden houses? Chances are the wood was harvested from the >> watersheds of salmon streams, causing them to silt up, thereby destroying >> the unique populations that bred in them. Destroying forests is not real >> helpful in other ways, too. >> >> In Africa, where safari tourism is a major source of income, subsistence >> farmers routinely kill wild herbivores like elephants in order be able to >> feed their children. >> >> There is one large group of traditional vegetarians in the world, members >> of certain castes in India. Large numbers of unexploited cows wander about, >> devouring food supplies. This doesn't have much effect on the increasing >> percentage of the population that no longer depends on subsistence >> agriculture. Those folks take to eating meat as they become more >> prosperous, the more prosperous the more meat. This is the pattern >> everywhere that more people can afford it. Much of that prosperity depends >> on the carrying capacity of the land (and will do so increasingly as >> population increases), which, as you point out, is reduced by large-scale >> meat production. Ironic, isn't it? >> >> What you call arable is often only so at a considerable stretch. The >> Tonto Valley in Arizona, for instance, is as dry as a bone. Sometimes it >> doesn't rain at all for a year or two, and it never rains more than a few >> inches a year. But the sun shines all the time and frosts are rare , so, >> add water and you have the largest source of iceberg lettuce, which is >> essentially a membrane for holding water, in the country. Evaporation rates >> from the fields is very high. That water used to make its way to the Sea of >> Cortez, via the Colorado River. Other hyper-productive "arable" land in the >> watershed includes the Imperial Valley, also irrigated from the Colorado, >> which now grows mostly fodder but in a perfect world might grow vegetables. >> The irrigation system is converting to the drip method--much of the acreage >> already has--but that doesn't stop, it merely slows the process. Less fresh >> water flowing through the Colorado and its tributaries means that in most >> years no water reaches the Sea of Cortez, and sea water has invaded the >> aquifer in the delta, once highly productive and now an immense salt flat. >> The salinity of the Sea itself has risen, killing off large amounts of sea >> life. The impact on fish eaters and harvesters is immediate, but even if >> they too turned vegetarian the sea would still be too salty for the >> creatures in it. The same is true of the Great Valley in California, the >> most productive farmland in the country, only arable because of intensive >> irrigation from desert rivers or the massive diversion of water from wetter >> ecosystems. >> I haven't even mentioned the impact of fertilizer runoff and >> sedimentation in these systems. >> >> The problem isn't that people eat too many cows, it's that there are too >> many people. No animal has a larger ecological footprint than the folks you >> love, even if they live on celery and weave their shoes from chaff. >> >> Most people like animal protein, which I for one eat with my full sense >> of irony intact. Some people fail to thrive without it--hey, we don't all >> metabolize foods in the same way. But let's gtrant that the majority could >> live on a carefully-planned vegetarian diet. It doesn't, for a variety of >> reasons, including the position of meat in their cultures. The problem, for >> those who would like to see a vegetarian world, is how to get from here to >> there, beyond individual conversions by shock videos. One of the ironies of >> our common existence is that humans can rationalize almost anything. >> >> Best, >> >> Mark >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: gabriel gudding ** >> Sent: Oct 30, 2011 12:48 AM >> To: NewPoetry List ** >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >> >> To this notion of empathy and literature, been listening to Steven >> Pinker's latest book, about trends in declining violence, and was intrigued >> by his calling literature an "empathy technology" --- in that it allows us >> to imagine the lives and minds of other persons and animals. He correlates >> the rise of the realist novel, eg, with the advent of 19thC reform >> movements in Europe and the US. Kind of interesting. >> >> I think there is some role poetry can play (and has) in this long effort >> to help wake a radical empathy for non-human animals. >> >> Love this clip from Neil deGrasse Tyson: >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL6hj6xLE8w >> [BTW, thank you, Annie, for the welcome. >> And having known Mark online for now 13 years (?), and having had dinner >> with him, and worked with him on some translations for his amazing >> anthology of Cuban poetry, I can say with confidence he's one of the least >> ironic people I've met. :)] >> >> On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 10:36 PM, wrote: >> >>> Moi? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Halvard Johnson ** >>> Sent: Oct 29, 2011 4:06 PM >>> To: NewPoetry List ** >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>> >>> Mark, you're being naughty. >>> >>> >>> Serving the tri-state area. >>> >>> Hal >>> >>> Halvard Johnson >>> ================ >>> >>> halvard at gmail.com >>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >>> >>> http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >>> >>> Remains To Be Seen >>> *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) >>> ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) >>> , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems >>> *, *Mainly Black >>> , *Obras P?blicas >>> ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets >>> ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones >>> ; **Tango Bouquet >>> ; **Theory of Harmony >>> ; **Rapsodie espagnole >>> ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway >>> ; **The Sonnet Project >>> ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter >>> Journey ; **Eclipse >>> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan >>> ;* >>> *Transparencies & Projections >>> * >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 2:02 PM, wrote: >>> >>>> Leather-bound? >>>> >>>> If the same number of animals would need to be fed they would use up >>>> precisely the same amount of land, presuming that they ate the same >>>> industrially-produced crops. If they foraged instead on whatever grows >>>> uncultivated it would take a great deal more land. Easy answers are more >>>> fun. Sorry. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: gabriel gudding ** >>>> Sent: Oct 29, 2011 2:55 PM >>>> To: NewPoetry List ** >>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>> >>>> We would use less arable land than we do now. I think the figures are >>>> 60% less. Will look. >>>> >>>> A good example of a poetry book that does this kind of work while still >>>> being brilliant poetry is Ariana Reines' _The Cow_ (Fence 2006). >>>> >>>> On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 1:23 PM, wrote: >>>> >>>>> If we all stopped eating animals the first necessity would be massive >>>>> slaughter, or all those gas-spewing beasts would destroy every bit of >>>>> vegetation on the planet. Thouigh I suuppose we could neuter them all, so >>>>> that after they've decimated the flora the surviving humans could begin >>>>> repopulating. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: gabriel gudding ** >>>>> Sent: Oct 29, 2011 12:52 PM >>>>> To: NewPoetry List ** >>>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>>> >>>>> Bill, sorry for the mix-up. >>>>> >>>>> Alex, I understand the pleasure in using a blurb-sized excerpt to >>>>> stimulate conversation. Maybe that's partly what blurbs are for: give >>>>> people something to argue about. In part, that's my point. Art is often >>>>> more of an activity of making distinctions internal to art -- in order to >>>>> distinguish oneself, one's school, or one's viewpoint, or as a testimony of >>>>> one's taste -- than in doing something else, finding pleasure in something >>>>> else (am thinking here of the work of Pierre Bourdieu, for instance, >>>>> specifically The Field of Cultural Production). >>>>> >>>>> By which I'm not saying the discussion of the blurb wasn't trying to >>>>> do something useful. Just that there is a tendency to struggle for >>>>> distinction using features that, over time, become more and more technical. >>>>> >>>>> Regarding yr response to the point about ethical & political >>>>> reparative action as an important component of poetry/literature: I >>>>> understand your concern there; there is a history of debate about it. My >>>>> concern is less with what you call the future of humanity and more with the >>>>> reality of how we are treating animals now. >>>>> >>>>> This is the 6th largest mass extinction in the natural record. And we >>>>> are strangely unaware of this -- and if aware we are on the whole >>>>> apathetic. Directly related to this mass extinction is the factory farming >>>>> of animals. It is the single largest factor in global warming, directly >>>>> related to a meat-based diet. Humans kill about 60 billion animals each >>>>> year for their meat, 10 billion annually in the US alone. >>>>> >>>>> We need, for instance, to stop eating animals. And we need to begin >>>>> awakening our own capacities for loving-kindness -- extending that >>>>> mindstate into the realities of our own diet, our own taste for meat. If >>>>> someone can't stop altogether, then just eat half of what was eaten before. >>>>> The next year, eat half of that. >>>>> >>>>> Poems and essays and conversations that help widen our understanding >>>>> of subjectivity and awaken our empathy to include animals as individuals >>>>> who should be accorded bodily and mental sovereignty, whose lives and >>>>> relationships matter to them and because of that should matter to us -- >>>>> matter to the point where we stop eating them -- is one example of the >>>>> kinds of poems & debates I can get behind. That is a worthwhile project, to >>>>> my mind. >>>>> >>>>> Anthologies debating and making statements about the line strike me as >>>>> a waste of resources and time -- unless they contain some excoriation of >>>>> the myopia historically endemic to art and a reminder there is a world of >>>>> suffering out there beyond our technical myopia. >>>>> >>>>> Certainly it's possible to do both. Literary history suggests however >>>>> that technical concerns tend to so stimulate people into delusional >>>>> struggles that they forget about other stuff. (Am thinking, re this last >>>>> assertion, of the work, again, of Pierre Bourdieu and to some extent Jed >>>>> Rasula). >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 9:57 PM, Alexander Dickow < >>>>> alexdickow9 at yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Welcome, Gabe! As stated here earlier by a number of us, there's a >>>>>> great deal of esteem here for your work, and you'll be perhaps relieved to >>>>>> know that all were quite conscious that a mere blurb-sized excerpt was >>>>>> likely not enough to judge an argument. Although I think there are indirect >>>>>> ways in which preoccupation with form connects to the ethical concerns you >>>>>> mention, just as I am reciprocally a bit skeptical toward the claims made >>>>>> for poetry in the name of ethics, which often appears to me as a decidedly >>>>>> meek version of the Romantic ideal of transformative literature (ie, poetry >>>>>> transforms individuals if not "the World", which is just a way of setting >>>>>> one's sights a great deal lower than originally intended, while claiming >>>>>> that the fundamental ambition hasn't changed). >>>>>> I think about technical matters; you've read Caramboles; am I >>>>>> unconcerned by the future of humanity? I'm not sure. On the other hand, I >>>>>> wouldn't make an anthology on the line either. >>>>>> Welcome to NewPo, in any event. Try not to scuffle with Bob and >>>>>> Halvard, and be nice to Anny, Jim (aka Finnegan) and Amy (King), and you'll >>>>>> be just fine. And when people quote Frost...let them ;) >>>>>> Amicalement, >>>>>> Alex >>>>>> >>>>>> www.alexdickow.net/blog/ >>>>>> >>>>>> les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin >>>>>> merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> *From:* gabriel gudding >>>>>> *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, October 28, 2011 10:44 PM >>>>>> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >>>>>> >>>>>> Having learned the line/fetish essay was being discussed here, and >>>>>> having read some of the comments about it in your archives, I thought I >>>>>> could subscribe to New-Poetry and clarify what was meant in the essay. Hope >>>>>> that's okay. >>>>>> >>>>>> This might be a nice chance to do so, since the editors of that >>>>>> anthology only gave the solicited contributors 750 words to convey >>>>>> something insightful about "the line." Not easy. I took about 730 words. >>>>>> Not much room for nuanced explanation, barely room for frank assertion. >>>>>> >>>>>> By saying that the line is not a feature of poetry I wasn't >>>>>> suggesting lines aren't found in poems, nor was I making any assertions >>>>>> about prose poetry versus metrical or free verse. >>>>>> >>>>>> The essay doesn't suggest the line should be abolished or that it >>>>>> originated with Modernists or fascists etc. Nor was I criticizing any >>>>>> particular kind of line (eg, metrical, as was suggested) or the notion of >>>>>> the linebreak. >>>>>> >>>>>> The essay is mostly making the assertion that whatever the technical >>>>>> phenomena are that get called "the line" at any particular point in >>>>>> literary history (eg, hypertrophic lines associated w/ strophic verse, >>>>>> prose lines, iambic pentameter, this or that technical description), such >>>>>> arguments (1) really do not matter in any way extrinsic to specifically >>>>>> disciplinary concerns, and (2) any ways that they *do* matter >>>>>> specific to disciplinary concerns are really meaningless in terms of the >>>>>> wider, and very dire, issues facing our collective human and animal future, >>>>>> which I start talking about later on in the essay. >>>>>> >>>>>> A basic concern of the essay is that poetry often gets defined merely >>>>>> by, from, or through its technical features. I might cite, as an example of >>>>>> this, Bill (whom I admire, btw) saying "The line IS poetry." >>>>>> >>>>>> An unspoken, but hopefully not too implicit part of the essay, is my >>>>>> conviction that whatever poetry is, it is larger than its technical >>>>>> debates, attempted definitions, and its ostensible "parts" (like line, >>>>>> rhythm, sound -- all of which are merely guesses at conceptualizing >>>>>> something we don't really understand). The guesses and debates are their >>>>>> own thing; the thing we don't understand is something else -- hence my >>>>>> admittedly rebarbative assertion that the line is not a feature of poetry. >>>>>> "The line" is something we pretend to understand and make distinctions and >>>>>> assertions about. While poetry is something we don't understand altogether. >>>>>> >>>>>> *The basic point the essay makes is that whatever poetry is, and >>>>>> whatever its minor (and at times cataclysmic-seeming) technical deba