From junction at earthlink.net Tue Nov 1 00:15:51 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 00:15:51 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] ecopoetics Message-ID: <32705153.1320120951773.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I understand. I have another problem with this--a poetry that knows what it's about and more or less where it's going before the writing starts. It seems to me that that leaves the poet where he/she started, having learned nothing. Terra incognita is a lot more interesting. And a lot more dangerous. -----Original Message----- >From: David Baratier >Sent: Oct 31, 2011 11:53 PM >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: [New-Poetry] ecopoetics > >The idea of relating ecology to the poem smacks of the same difficulties political poetry inherently contains. Mainly of audience. If the author uses content as a way to inflate themselves, through seeking audience agreement, the poem has no defense (or excuse, life) once separated from the author. > >A number of decades back I read for the AIDS memorial quilt's first public appearance at the NY State Museum, and the worst case scenarios with the readers was "AIDS is bad" "we need education" "silence=death" and other clappable agenda items. At that moment I knew I would rather have a didactic piece that said "ice-cream was bad" and have it crafted through field, line, and metrics / breath to the point of audience approval rather than obviousness headed toward immediate oblivion.? > >I think there is a way to create a form that would work into ecopoetics with out mudslinging or invective producing. A PETA ad poem won't work. Poetry has been at the forefront of thought disciplines for ages, I find it unusual that certain individuals here find that we should leave technical science based subjects to the experts fouled by funding. With an untainted moral stance organically arrived at through humanness and concern; I have creative circuitous conscious expanding capabilities that a scientist is generally untrained in; I have an ability to connect cross cutting by hatching, by shaded degrees; up until recently poets created the sciences, reclamation through beauty of line, language and imagination should be a goal. > >A interesting poetic formulation of the exobiology behind a Hubble image is more crucially pluralistic to our being then current findings based on pre-formed expected trajectories (ie not research, but "research," finding the evidence to prove the started thesis). > >As for ecopoetics, there was a huge gap between the poems produced and the philosophy, that an ecopoem needs to be vague, tho the person most oft pointed toward, Niedecker, was extremely precise in her language and meaning. I assume Gabe is talking of the Nightboat anthology, have any read the Sous Paves journal, highly recommend that, great eco & political essays, info in there is surprising-- > >out of time-- > >Be well > >David Baratier, Editor > >Pavement Saw Press >321 Empire Street >Montpelier OH 43543 >http://pavementsaw.org > >Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at >http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 > >Facebook Page >http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=25857379734&ref=ts > > >--- On Mon, 10/31/11, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote: > >> From: new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 15, Issue 42 >> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> Date: Monday, October 31, 2011, 1:47 PM >> Send New-Poetry mailing list >> submissions to >> ??? new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> ??? http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' >> to >> ??? new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> ??? new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more >> specific >> than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> ???1. Re: empathy, poetry, meat consumption >> (David Baratier) >> ???2. Re: empathy, poetry, meat consumption >> (Halvard Johnson) >> ???3. Re: empathy, poetry, meat consumption >> (junction at earthlink.net) >> ???4. Re: empathy, poetry, meat consumption >> (junction at earthlink.net) >> ???5. Re: empathy, poetry, meat consumption >> (Halvard Johnson) >> ???6. Re: empathy, poetry, meat consumption >> (gabriel gudding) >> ???7. Re: empathy, poetry, meat consumption >> (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) >> ???8. Re: empathy, poetry, meat consumption >> (R Dillon) >> ???9. Re: empathy, poetry, meat consumption >> (gabriel gudding) >> ? 10. Re: empathy, poetry, meat consumption (Anny >> Ballardini) >> ? 11. Re: empathy, poetry, meat consumption (almaginnes at aol.com) >> ? 12. Re: empathy, poetry, meat consumption (Alexander >> Dickow) >> ? 13. Re: empathy, poetry, meat consumption (James >> Cervantes) >> ? 14. Re: empathy, poetry, meat consumption (junction at earthlink.net) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 20:48:57 -0700 (PDT) >> From: David Baratier >> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat >> consumption >> Message-ID: >> ??? <1320032937.51960.YahooMailClassic at web45610.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> Howdy Gabe & Anny-- >> >> I am one of the veggies too, over 20 years of not eating >> animals, birds, or fish. Except for the ones that would like >> to disembowel or ignore me, animals are my friends. >> >> Just the choice of single crop, till farming creates enough >> problems to the environment without tapping into the >> subjects of GE crops, GMOs, hormones, and raising living >> beings for food. >> >> Part of a serial work called "Political Poems" I have >> worked on addresses the subject, but also other areas of >> detriment to the earth, US worker oppression etcetera. I am >> just starting to send these out, there is one in Redheaded >> Stepchild, another in the recent issue of Compost.? >> >> Thinking of Mark's irony, and seeing Jack C's name, I am >> still not so sold on ecopoetics. Thoughts on the topic? >> >> Be well >> >> David Baratier, Editor >> >> Pavement Saw Press >> 321 Empire Street >> Montpelier OH 43543 >> http://pavementsaw.org >> >> Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at >> http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 >> >> Facebook Page >> http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=25857379734&ref=ts >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 22:01:01 -0600 >> From: Halvard Johnson >> To: NewPoetry List >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat >> consumption >> Message-ID: >> ??? >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> And I'm wondering what happens to cattle and various other >> species >> raised for food when everyone stops eating them. Do they >> just go their >> own way? What about those dependent on human care? >> >> I know what some folks (e.g. the Chinese and Japanese) can >> do with soy >> products, and it's probably more cost efficient to feed >> humans with soy >> products than to feed those to cattle, which are then >> slaughtered for human >> consumption. >> >> >> Serving the tri-state area. >> >> Hal >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> >> halvard at gmail.com >> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >> http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >> >> Remains To Be Seen >> *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. >> II) >> ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. >> III) >> , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other >> Poems >> *, *Mainly Black >> , *Obras P?blicas >> ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other >> Sonnets >> ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of >> Clones >> ; **Tango Bouquet >> ; **Theory of Harmony >> ; **Rapsodie espagnole >> ; **Guide to the Tokyo >> Subway >> ; **The Sonnet Project >> ; **G(e)nome ; >> **Winter >> Journey ; >> **Eclipse >> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; >> * >> *Transparencies & Projections >> * >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 8:48 PM, gabriel gudding >> wrote: >> >> > The whole arable thing is settled science, which I >> trust, as I trust >> > people who know better than I. >> > >> > The what to do issue is, I agree, tough. >> > >> > One, change ideas/precepts about slaughter: Campaigns >> are underway. >> > Thankfully the talk about this is finally making its >> way into livingrooms >> > and kitchens, and even into poetry (and poetry >> listservs, it seems :)). >> > >> > Also, changing practices/percepts: We can each eat >> less meat, trying >> > eventually to stop, and work on changing our >> relationship to bodily >> > sensations around food and our expectations for >> certain tastes and bodily >> > sensations. Cultivate empathy toward all animals, not >> just dogs and cats. >> > Work to reach the point where hunting, slaughter >> farming, and eating meat >> > are seen for what they are: unnecessary, immoral >> practices. Leaflet, give >> > talks, teach courses, write essays and poems. Direct >> action is good too: I >> > know people who would chain themselves to CAFO barns; >> a person in town here >> > goes to meet local farmers where we live after asking >> them if she can come >> > talk to them about what they do and see if they're >> open to having their >> > minds changed. They say yes. >> > >> > There is reason to be hopeful. I've been listening to >> Steven Pinker's tour >> > de force about the steady decline of violence in >> developing countries since >> > the late 17th Century and the rise of liberal >> humanism. We already treat >> > animals far less violently than we used to. We've >> stopped behemoths of >> > injustice before. It takes a while but a concerted >> effort wins out >> > eventually. One day meat eating will go the way of >> smoking. People will >> > still do it, but it will not be considered something >> good or careful to do, >> > and it will asymptote out. >> > >> > RE "humane": The current thought (as far as I've seen >> it) about "humane >> > treatment" runs this way: there is nothing humane >> about slaughtering a >> > being, discarding its life and taking its body from >> it. No matter how you >> > slice it (the pun is warranted, sorry), it's gruesome >> and murderous and >> > wrong. We need to call a spade a spade and not doll it >> up with euphemisms >> > designed to make us feel better. Too, there are some >> researchers who see a >> > causal correlation between "humane" rhetoric, >> ostensibly humane slaughter >> > and an *increase* in slaughter rates. >> > >> > So, if the end is slaughter, It's theft, murder, and >> greed wrapped into >> > one. To eat meat is to exercise greed at the cost of >> another's life. We >> > need to start seeing that and talking more about it. >> It'll change >> > eventually. >> > >> > I've learned of some other poets doing work like this, >> expanding our >> > circle of empathy -- helping to see animals as beings >> who should be >> > accorded bodily and mental sovereignty: >> > >> > Ashley Capps >> > Juliana Spahr >> > Jack Collom >> > Oni Buchanan >> > Tao Lin (one of his only that I've seen) >> > Alison Titus (I think) >> > Gerald Stern >> > Ariana Reines >> > Cara Benson >> > Jack Collom >> > Whitman >> > Philip Jenks >> > Franz Wright >> > Merrill Gilfillan >> > >> > Anny: 30 years! That's wonderful. How many animals >> you've not eaten! :) >> > >> > On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 7:39 PM, >> wrote: >> > >> >> Again: Define arable. Not the same as sustainable, >> whatever it's used to >> >> grow, fodder or fruit. So let's talk about land >> that would be used for >> >> agriculture if we all became vegetarians. Grazing >> lands are mostly >> >> agriculturally marginal at best. That which isn't >> would have to be >> >> intensively cultivated. And all those minor things >> you dismiss are in fact >> >> pretty major. Details do have a way of clouding >> one's vision. >> >> >> >> But the issues aren't about the sciences you >> appeal to. Try sociology and >> >> psychology. We can know very clearly what we think >> ought to be done, that >> >> doesn't mean we can map a way (a projective graph >> is just a fantasy) to get >> >> there. Though it may be a pretty thought. >> >> >> >> In the interim, one could at least proscribe the >> horrible current >> >> practices in favor of more humane treatment. There >> are relatively few >> >> cultural barriers to this. >> >> >> >> But let's remember that human civilizations >> developed to distance us from >> >> the horrific lives o0f beasts, who in the wild >> lead lives of constant >> >> terror, those that grieve, constantly, and die >> painfully 100% of the time, >> >> mostly by being eaten alive. It's not as if >> there's a peaceable kingdom out >> >> there. >> >> >> >> Enough. I hate simple solutions to complex >> problems, and I think beyond >> >> treatment that's as humane as possible there's >> little we can agree upon in >> >> terms of what's possible to accomplish. >> >> >> >> Beat, >> >> >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: gabriel gudding ** >> >> Sent: Oct 30, 2011 3:58 PM >> >> To: NewPoetry List ** >> >> Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat >> consumption >> >> >> >> Hi Mark, >> >> >> >> *Arable land: You got it exactly backward. Plant >> agriculture uses less >> >> land to yield an equal amount of nutrition as >> slaughter agriculture, >> >> meaning not only the redress of moral wrong done >> against animals, but the >> >> redress of famine caused by inefficient land use. >> 2/3rds of current arable >> >> land is used for meat production. Only 8% of >> current arable land is used >> >> for human consumption. Meat consumption uses 60% >> more arable land than >> >> plant agriculture for the same nutritional value. >> Health problems >> >> associated with meat diet: toxins contained in >> meat, obesity, cancer, heart >> >> disease, etc. >> >> >> >> *Scale: Yes, you can fine-tune the question of >> harm caused by the >> >> consumption of meat to extreme cases in order to >> reduce it to absurdities >> >> (your examples of wood for houses being taken from >> streams thus impacting >> >> salmon, urban cows in India eating things, this or >> that farmer in Africa >> >> fencing against elephants, etc). But this is >> willful ignorance to a problem >> >> about whose causation there is wide, nearly >> unanimous, consensus among the >> >> global scientific community. We are dealing with a >> single massive problem: >> >> global factory farming; the statistics of global >> meat consumption in the >> >> past 20 years show a radical increase in >> consumption that does not scale >> >> with population increase. People have never before >> consumed meat, per >> >> capita, on such a scale. Per capita consumption >> has skyrocketed. This per >> >> statistics from dozens of organizations. There is >> one large culprit. All >> >> the little problems you cite are nothing compared >> to this. >> >> >> >> Ethicopolitical: Famine and human starvation is >> related to most arable >> >> land being used to raise animals for slaughter. >> Both human animals and >> >> non-human animals will benefit from people simply >> reducing their meat >> >> consumption. Start by trying to reduce it by half. >> And eventually trying to >> >> asymptote-out one's consumption. One can stop >> altogether if they put their >> >> minds to it. It is not easy to change how one >> eats, but it is a simple way >> >> to put one's liberal humanism (or liberal >> post-humanism) where one's mouth >> >> is. >> >> >> >> Moral: The need to intellectually and emotionally >> understand that the >> >> meat on the plate (tasty as it is) was a recently >> living fellow being who >> >> wanted to live and feared and suffered in its >> death -- and whose death the >> >> eater directly contributes to and benefits from. >> Some surmise that birds >> >> and other mammals actually grieve and fear far >> more deeply than humans. >> >> What we do know is that their worlds matter deeply >> to them, that they >> >> suffer profoundly in the gulags and concentration >> camps people put them in, >> >> and that they know they are going to be >> slaughtered. And it's deeply wrong. >> >> >> >> The video: was not a shock video. It's a simple >> interview with an >> >> astrophysicist about expanding our circle of >> empathy. >> >> >> >> Poets who do this well: Ariana Reines (The Cow, >> prev. mentioned). Whitman >> >> LoG passim. Who are others, I wonder? >> >> >> >> Gabe >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 10:58 AM, >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Gabe: It pains me to comment on what you >> clearly mean as a compliment, >> >>> but here goes. In much of the US irony is >> considered a vice and a meanness. >> >>> While it can be wielded as a weapon (or, as I >> think I do, played as a >> >>> game), in itself it's neither vicious nor >> mean. Irony requires the holding >> >>> of two contradictory thoughts in mind at the >> same time. Ideally one applies >> >>> it even to causes and concepts with which one >> is in sympathy. It's at the >> >>> heart of thought. Without it one becomes >> victim to one's own starry eyes, >> >>> or to the peddlers of simple solutions, and to >> the extent that the lack is >> >>> a national failing it gives us the tea party >> and the occupy movement and >> >>> may well give us a government run more >> thoroughly by lunatics. >> >>> >> >>> It's also, as a New Yorker and a Jew, my >> native language. >> >>> >> >>> So here are a very few bits of irony about the >> rights of animals.: >> >>> >> >>> Like wooden houses? Chances are the wood was >> harvested from the >> >>> watersheds of salmon streams, causing them to >> silt up, thereby destroying >> >>> the unique populations that bred in them. >> Destroying forests is not real >> >>> helpful in other ways, too. >> >>> >> >>> In Africa, where safari tourism is a major >> source of income, subsistence >> >>> farmers routinely kill wild herbivores like >> elephants in order be able to >> >>> feed their children. >> >>> >> >>> There is one large group of traditional >> vegetarians in the world, >> >>> members of certain castes in India. Large >> numbers of unexploited cows >> >>> wander about, devouring food supplies. This >> doesn't have much effect on the >> >>> increasing percentage of the population that >> no longer depends on >> >>> subsistence agriculture. Those folks take to >> eating meat as they become >> >>> more prosperous, the more prosperous the more >> meat. This is the pattern >> >>> everywhere that more people can afford it. >> Much of that prosperity depends >> >>> on the carrying capacity of the land (and will >> do so increasingly as >> >>> population increases), which, as you point >> out, is reduced by large-scale >> >>> meat production. Ironic, isn't it? >> >>> >> >>> What you call arable is often only so at a >> considerable stretch. The >> >>> Tonto Valley in Arizona, for instance, is as >> dry as a bone. Sometimes it >> >>> doesn't rain at all for a year or two, and it >> never rains more than a few >> >>> inches a year. But the sun shines all the time >> and frosts are rare , so, >> >>> add water and you have the largest source of >> iceberg lettuce, which is >> >>> essentially a membrane for holding water, in >> the country. Evaporation rates >> >>> from the fields is very high. That water used >> to make its way to the Sea of >> >>> Cortez, via the Colorado River. Other >> hyper-productive "arable" land in the >> >>> watershed includes the Imperial Valley, also >> irrigated from the Colorado, >> >>> which now grows mostly fodder but in a perfect >> world might grow vegetables. >> >>> The irrigation system is converting to the >> drip method--much of the acreage >> >>> already has--but that doesn't stop, it merely >> slows the process. Less fresh >> >>> water flowing through the Colorado and its >> tributaries means that in most >> >>> years no water reaches the Sea of Cortez, and >> sea water has invaded the >> >>> aquifer in the delta, once highly productive >> and now an immense salt flat. >> >>> The salinity of the Sea itself has risen, >> killing off large amounts of sea >> >>> life. The impact on fish eaters and harvesters >> is immediate, but even if >> >>> they too turned vegetarian the sea would still >> be too salty for the >> >>> creatures in it.? The same is true of the >> Great Valley in California, the >> >>> most productive farmland in the country, only >> arable because of intensive >> >>> irrigation from desert rivers or the massive >> diversion of water from wetter >> >>> ecosystems. >> >>> I haven't even mentioned the impact of >> fertilizer runoff and >> >>> sedimentation in these systems. >> >>> >> >>> The problem isn't that people eat too many >> cows, it's that there are too >> >>> many people. No animal has a larger ecological >> footprint than the folks you >> >>> love, even if they live on celery and weave >> their shoes from chaff. >> >>> >> >>> Most people like animal protein, which I for >> one eat with my full sense >> >>> of irony intact. Some people fail to thrive >> without it--hey, we don't all >> >>> metabolize foods in the same way. But let's >> gtrant that the majority could >> >>> live on a carefully-planned vegetarian diet. >> It doesn't, for a variety of >> >>> reasons, including the position of meat in >> their cultures. The problem, for >> >>> those who would like to see a vegetarian >> world, is how to get from here to >> >>> there, beyond individual conversions by shock >> videos. One of the ironies of >> >>> our common existence is that humans can >> rationalize almost anything. >> >>> >> >>> Best, >> >>> >> >>> Mark >> >>> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: gabriel gudding ** >> >>> Sent: Oct 30, 2011 12:48 AM >> >>> To: NewPoetry List ** >> >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / disagree?) >> the fetish of the line >> >>> >> >>> To this notion of empathy and literature, been >> listening to Steven >> >>> Pinker's latest book, about trends in >> declining violence, and was intrigued >> >>> by his calling literature an "empathy >> technology" --- in that it allows us >> >>> to imagine the lives and minds of other >> persons and animals. He correlates >> >>> the rise of the realist novel, eg, with the >> advent of 19thC reform >> >>> movements in Europe and the US. Kind of >> interesting. >> >>> >> >>> I think there is some role poetry can play >> (and has) in this long effort >> >>> to help wake a radical empathy for non-human >> animals. >> >>> >> >>> Love this clip from Neil deGrasse Tyson: >> >>> >> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL6hj6xLE8w >> >>> [BTW, thank you, Annie, for the welcome. >> >>> And having known Mark online for now 13 years >> (?), and having had dinner >> >>> with him, and worked with him on some >> translations for his amazing >> >>> anthology of Cuban poetry, I can say with >> confidence he's one of the least >> >>> ironic people I've met. :)] >> >>> >> >>> On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 10:36 PM, >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> Moi? >> >>>> >> >>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>> From: Halvard Johnson ** >> >>>> Sent: Oct 29, 2011 4:06 PM >> >>>> To: NewPoetry List ** >> >>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / >> disagree?) the fetish of the line >> >>>> >> >>>> Mark, you're being naughty. >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>? Serving the tri-state area. >> >>>> >> >>>> Hal >> >>>> >> >>>> Halvard Johnson >> >>>> ================ >> >>>> >> >>>> halvard at gmail.com >> >>>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> >>>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> >>>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> >>>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >>>> >> >>>> http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >> >>>>? >> >>>> Remains To Be Seen >> >>>> *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) >> >>>> ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) >> >>>> , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other >> Poems >> >>>> *, *Mainly Black >> >>>> , *Obras P?blicas >> >>>> ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye >> and Other Sonnets >> >>>> ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of >> Clones >> >>>> ; **Tango Bouquet >> >>>> ; **Theory of Harmony >> >>>> ; **Rapsodie espagnole >> >>>> ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway >> >>>> ; **The Sonnet Project >> >>>> ; **G(e)nome ; >> **Winter >> >>>> Journey ; >> **Eclipse >> >>>> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan >> >>>> ;* >> >>>> *Transparencies & Projections >> >>>> * >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 2:02 PM, >> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> Leather-bound? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> If the same number of animals would >> need to be fed they would use up >> >>>>> precisely the same amount of land, >> presuming that they ate the same >> >>>>> industrially-produced crops. If they >> foraged instead on whatever grows >> >>>>> uncultivated it would take a great >> deal more land. Easy answers are more >> >>>>> fun. Sorry. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>>> From: gabriel gudding ** >> >>>>> Sent: Oct 29, 2011 2:55 PM >> >>>>> To: NewPoetry List ** >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / >> disagree?) the fetish of the line >> >>>>> >> >>>>> We would use less arable land than we >> do now. I think the figures are >> >>>>> 60% less. Will look. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> A good example of a poetry book that >> does this kind of work while >> >>>>> still being brilliant poetry is Ariana >> Reines' _The Cow_ (Fence 2006). >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 1:23 PM, >> >> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> If we all stopped eating animals >> the first necessity would be massive >> >>>>>> slaughter, or all those >> gas-spewing beasts would destroy every bit of >> >>>>>> vegetation on the planet. Thouigh >> I suuppose we could neuter them all, so >> >>>>>> that after they've decimated the >> flora the surviving humans could begin >> >>>>>> repopulating. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>>>> From: gabriel gudding ** >> >>>>>> Sent: Oct 29, 2011 12:52 PM >> >>>>>> To: NewPoetry List ** >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / >> disagree?) the fetish of the line >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Bill, sorry for the mix-up. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Alex, I understand the pleasure in >> using a blurb-sized excerpt to >> >>>>>> stimulate conversation. Maybe >> that's partly what blurbs are for: give >> >>>>>> people something to argue about. >> In part, that's my point. Art is often >> >>>>>> more of an activity of making >> distinctions internal to art -- in order to >> >>>>>> distinguish oneself, one's school, >> or one's viewpoint, or as a testimony of >> >>>>>> one's taste -- than in doing >> something else, finding pleasure in something >> >>>>>> else (am thinking here of the work >> of Pierre Bourdieu, for instance, >> >>>>>> specifically The Field of Cultural >> Production). >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> By which I'm not saying the >> discussion of the blurb wasn't trying to >> >>>>>> do something useful. Just that >> there is a tendency to struggle for >> >>>>>> distinction using features that, >> over time, become more and more technical. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Regarding yr response to the point >> about ethical & political >> >>>>>> reparative action as an important >> component of poetry/literature: I >> >>>>>> understand your concern there; >> there is a history of debate about it. My >> >>>>>> concern is less with what you call >> the future of humanity and more with the >> >>>>>> reality of how we are treating >> animals now. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> This is the 6th largest mass >> extinction in the natural record. And we >> >>>>>> are strangely unaware of this -- >> and if aware we are on the whole >> >>>>>> apathetic. Directly related to >> this mass extinction is the factory farming >> >>>>>> of animals. It is the single >> largest factor in global warming, directly >> >>>>>> related to a meat-based diet. >> Humans kill about 60 billion animals each >> >>>>>> year for their meat, 10 billion >> annually in the US alone. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> We need, for instance, to stop >> eating animals. And we need to begin >> >>>>>> awakening our own capacities for >> loving-kindness -- extending that >> >>>>>> mindstate into the realities of >> our own diet, our own taste for meat. If >> >>>>>> someone can't stop altogether, >> then just eat half of what was eaten before. >> >>>>>> The next year, eat half of that. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Poems and essays and conversations >> that help widen our understanding >> >>>>>> of subjectivity and awaken our >> empathy to include animals as individuals >> >>>>>> who should be accorded bodily and >> mental sovereignty, whose lives and >> >>>>>> relationships matter to them and >> because of that should matter to us -- >> >>>>>> matter to the point where we stop >> eating them -- is one example of the >> >>>>>> kinds of poems & debates I can >> get behind. That is a worthwhile project, to >> >>>>>> my mind. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Anthologies debating and making >> statements about the line strike me >> >>>>>> as a waste of resources and time >> -- unless they contain some excoriation of >> >>>>>> the myopia historically endemic to >> art and a reminder there is a world of >> >>>>>> suffering out there beyond our >> technical myopia. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> Certainly it's possible to do >> both. Literary history suggests however >> >>>>>> that technical concerns tend to so >> stimulate people into delusional >> >>>>>> struggles that they forget about >> other stuff. (Am thinking, re this last >> >>>>>> assertion, of the work, again, of >> Pierre Bourdieu and to some extent Jed >> >>>>>> Rasula). >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 9:57 PM, >> Alexander Dickow < >> >>>>>> alexdickow9 at yahoo.com> >> wrote: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Welcome, Gabe! As stated here >> earlier by a number of us, there's a >> >>>>>>> great deal of esteem here for >> your work, and you'll be perhaps relieved to >> >>>>>>> know that all were quite >> conscious that a mere blurb-sized excerpt was >> >>>>>>> likely not enough to judge an >> argument. Although I think there are indirect >> >>>>>>> ways in which preoccupation >> with form connects to the ethical concerns you >> >>>>>>> mention, just as I am >> reciprocally a bit skeptical toward the claims made >> >>>>>>> for poetry in the name of >> ethics, which often appears to me as a decidedly >> >>>>>>> meek version of the Romantic >> ideal of transformative literature (ie, poetry >> >>>>>>> transforms individuals if not >> "the World", which is just a way of setting >> >>>>>>> one's sights a great deal >> lower than originally intended, while claiming >> >>>>>>> that the fundamental ambition >> hasn't changed). >> >>>>>>> I think about technical >> matters; you've read Caramboles; am I >> >>>>>>> unconcerned by the future of >> humanity? I'm not sure. On the other hand, I >> >>>>>>> wouldn't make an anthology on >> the line either. >> >>>>>>> Welcome to NewPo, in any >> event. Try not to scuffle with Bob and >> >>>>>>> Halvard, and be nice to Anny, >> Jim (aka Finnegan) and Amy (King), and you'll >> >>>>>>> be just fine. And when people >> quote Frost...let them ;) >> >>>>>>> Amicalement, >> >>>>>>> Alex >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> www.alexdickow.net/blog/ >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la >> fin >> >>>>>>> merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> ------------------------------ >> >>>>>>> *From:* gabriel gudding >> >>>>>>> *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >>>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, October 28, >> 2011 10:44 PM >> >>>>>>> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] (agree >> / disagree?) the fetish of the line >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Having learned the line/fetish >> essay was being discussed here, and >> >>>>>>> having read some of the >> comments about it in your archives, I thought I >> >>>>>>> could subscribe to New-Poetry >> and clarify what was meant in the essay. Hope >> >>>>>>> that's okay. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> This might be a nice chance to >> do so, since the editors of that >> >>>>>>> anthology only gave the >> solicited contributors 750 words to convey >> >>>>>>> something insightful about >> "the line." Not easy. I took about 730 words. >> >>>>>>> Not much room for nuanced >> explanation, barely room for frank assertion. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> By saying that the line is not >> a feature of poetry I wasn't >> >>>>>>> suggesting lines aren't found >> in poems, nor was I making any assertions >> >>>>>>> about prose poetry versus >> metrical or free verse. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> The essay doesn't suggest the >> line should be abolished or that it >> >>>>>>> originated with Modernists or >> fascists etc. Nor was I criticizing any >> >>>>>>> particular kind of line (eg, >> metrical, as was suggested) or the notion of >> >>>>>>> the linebreak. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> The essay is mostly making the >> assertion that whatever the technical >> >>>>>>> phenomena are that get called >> "the line" at any particular point in >> >>>>>>> literary history (eg, >> hypertrophic lines associated w/ strophic verse, >> >>>>>>> prose lines, iambic >> pentameter, this or that technical description), such >> >>>>>>> arguments (1) really do not >> matter in any way extrinsic to specifically >> >>>>>>> disciplinary concerns, and (2) >> any ways that they *do* matter >> >>>>>>> specific to disciplinary >> concerns are really meaningless in terms of the >> >>>>>>> wider, and very dire, issues >> facing our collective human and animal future, >> >>>>>>> which I start talking about >> later on in the essay. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> A basic concern of the essay >> is that poetry often gets defined >> >>>>>>> merely by, from, or through >> its technical features. I might cite, as an >> >>>>>>> example of this, Bill (whom I >> admire, btw) saying "The line IS poetry." >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> An unspoken, but hopefully not >> too implicit part of the essay, is my >> >>>>>>> conviction that whatever >> poetry is, it is larger than its technical >> >>>>>>> debates, attempted >> definitions, and its ostensible "parts" (like line, >> >>>>>>> rhythm, sound -- all of which >> are merely guesses at conceptualizing >> >>>>>>> something we don't really >> understand). The guesses and debates are their >> >>>>>>> own thing; the thing we don't >> understand is something else -- hence my >> >>>>>>> admittedly rebarbative >> assertion that the line is not a feature of poetry. >> >>>>>>> "The line" is something we >> pretend to understand and make distinctions and >> >>>>>>> assertions about. While poetry >> is something we don't understand altogether. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> *The basic point the essay >> makes is that whatever poetry is, and >> >>>>>>> whatever its minor (and at >> times cataclysmic-seeming) technical debates and >> >>>>>>> disagreements, poetry (both >> mainstream and >> >>>>>>> >> experimental/avant-garde/innovative) has had, since the >> early 20th century >> >>>>>>> in the US (and the late 19th >> century in France), more of an interest in its >> >>>>>>> own debates about technique >> and technicalities than an interest in seeing >> >>>>>>> itself as a mode of reparative >> ethical action.* >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> And I'm trying to suggest that >> the former blinds us to the >> >>>>>>> possibilities of the latter. >> There is an institutional tendency to focus on >> >>>>>>> and debate poetry's technical >> features and ignore poetry's wider potential >> >>>>>>> role as mode of ethical and >> political reparative action. I really think >> >>>>>>> issues about the line are not >> worth debating or making books about. Too >> >>>>>>> much other work to be done >> with our energies. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> *The real concern of my essay >> (and this post) is not the line or >> >>>>>>> these debates, but the fact >> that we are living through the 6th largest >> >>>>>>> extinction of animals (and >> possibly our own) in the nature record.* >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> I was given 750 words to >> disagree with the premise of the anthology >> >>>>>>> for which I'd been solicited. >> Because of limited word count, figured I >> >>>>>>> should use a provocative tone. >> :) >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Anyway, thanks for letting me >> stick my nose in the door here and say >> >>>>>>> hi.... :) >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Gabe >> >>>>>>> PS, in case you'd like to see >> what I meant by the larger issues and >> >>>>>>> work before us, it's found >> here: >> >>>>>>> http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_broken_thing.php >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >> >>>>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >>>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >> >>>>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >>>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> **** >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >> >>>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> **** >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >> >>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> **** >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >> >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> **** >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>> New-Poetry mailing list >> >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>> >> >>> >> >> **** >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> New-Poetry mailing list >> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New-Poetry mailing list >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 00:28:44 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >> From: junction at earthlink.net >> To: NewPoetry List >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat >> consumption >> Message-ID: >> ??? <2889314.1320035324678.JavaMail.root at wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 00:30:37 -0400 (GMT-04:00) >> From: junction at earthlink.net >> To: NewPoetry List >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat >> consumption >> Message-ID: >> ??? <12633545.1320035437921.JavaMail.root at wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 >> >> I've tried to find out what ecopoetics is beyond plain old >> nature poetry and been told that it's too complicated to >> explain. Care to give it a try? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >From: David Baratier >> >Sent: Oct 30, 2011 11:48 PM >> >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat >> consumption >> > >> >Howdy Gabe & Anny-- >> > >> >I am one of the veggies too, over 20 years of not >> eating animals, birds, or fish. Except for the ones that >> would like to disembowel or ignore me, animals are my >> friends. >> > >> >Just the choice of single crop, till farming creates >> enough problems to the environment without tapping into the >> subjects of GE crops, GMOs, hormones, and raising living >> beings for food. >> > >> >Part of a serial work called "Political Poems" I have >> worked on addresses the subject, but also other areas of >> detriment to the earth, US worker oppression etcetera. I am >> just starting to send these out, there is one in Redheaded >> Stepchild, another in the recent issue of Compost.? >> > >> >Thinking of Mark's irony, and seeing Jack C's name, I >> am still not so sold on ecopoetics. Thoughts on the topic? >> > >> >Be well >> > >> >David Baratier, Editor >> > >> >Pavement Saw Press >> >321 Empire Street >> >Montpelier OH 43543 >> >http://pavementsaw.org >> > >> >Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at >> >http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 >> > >> >Facebook Page >> >http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=25857379734&ref=ts >> > >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >New-Poetry mailing list >> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 5 >> Date: Sun, 30 Oct 2011 22:47:39 -0600 >> From: Halvard Johnson >> To: NewPoetry List >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat >> consumption >> Message-ID: >> ??? >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Yes, I know the Japanese love their fish, their Kobe beef, >> their chicken >> sushi, etc. etc. They do however make good things from soy, >> beyond the >> little cubes of it found in miso soup and some salads. The >> Chinese can turn >> soy into ersatz roasts, steaks, and almost anything. Ate >> once at a >> three-story restaurant in Hangchow, as I recall, where >> *everything* served, >> liquid or solid, was made from soy products--and that was >> about thirty >> years ago. >> >> >> Serving the tri-state area. >> >> Hal >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> >> halvard at gmail.com >> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >> http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >> >> Remains To Be Seen >> *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. >> II) >> ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. >> III) >> , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other >> Poems >> *, *Mainly Black >> , *Obras P?blicas >> ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other >> Sonnets >> ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of >> Clones >> ; **Tango Bouquet >> ; **Theory of Harmony >> ; **Rapsodie espagnole >> ; **Guide to the Tokyo >> Subway >> ; **The Sonnet Project >> ; **G(e)nome ; >> **Winter >> Journey ; >> **Eclipse >> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; >> * >> *Transparencies & Projections >> * >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 10:28 PM, >> wrote: >> >> > Right, Hal. Even if all those animals decided to >> starve voluntarily their >> > decomposing corpses would produce monumental amounts >> of methane. More >> > likely that unculled they would just reproduce until >> we and they starve. >> > >> > Those same Japanese and Chinese have increased their >> meat and fish >> > consumption exponentially as their prosperity has >> increased. The Japanese >> > have been at the forefront of destroying the world's >> fish stocks. >> > >> > Years ago I was dating a vegetarian. I took her to a >> now-defunct >> > vegetarian restaurant in Chinatown. The only chinese >> were the waiters, and >> > we were the only non-hasids among the customers (no >> meat means no traif). >> > On the way out I asked the cashier if she was >> vegetarian. She exploded with >> > laughter. "No vegetarians in China," she said, "only >> monks." >> > >> > I think it more likely that all peoples will embrace >> the true religion >> > (whichever that is) uncoerced than that a substantial >> majority will change >> > their eating habits uncoerced. The issue is management >> and damage control. >> > And addressing this as if it were some sort of panacea >> is just dumb. We >> > have lots of other things to worry about. >> > >> > I'm not sure what role poetry can play in this. Poets >> have been far better >> > at exciting violence in the service of their masters >> than at discouraging >> > it. >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Halvard Johnson ** >> > Sent: Oct 31, 2011 12:01 AM >> > To: NewPoetry List ** >> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat >> consumption >> > >> > And I'm wondering what happens to cattle and various >> other species >> > raised for food when everyone stops eating them. Do >> they just go their >> > own way? What about those dependent on human care? >> > >> > I know what some folks (e.g. the Chinese and Japanese) >> can do with soy >> > products, and it's probably more cost efficient to >> feed humans with soy >> > products than to feed those to cattle, which are then >> slaughtered for human >> > consumption. >> > >> > >> > Serving the tri-state area. >> > >> > Hal >> > >> > Halvard Johnson >> > ================ >> > >> > halvard at gmail.com >> > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> > http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> > >> > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >> >? >> > Remains To Be Seen >> > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) >> > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) >> > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems >> > *, *Mainly Black >> > , *Obras P?blicas >> > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other >> Sonnets >> > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones >> > ; **Tango Bouquet >> > ; **Theory of Harmony >> > ; **Rapsodie espagnole >> > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway >> > ; **The Sonnet Project >> > ; **G(e)nome ; >> **Winter >> > Journey ; >> **Eclipse >> > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan >> > ;* >> > *Transparencies & Projections >> > * >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 8:48 PM, gabriel gudding >> > > > wrote: >> > >> >> The whole arable thing is settled science, which I >> trust, as I trust >> >> people who know better than I. >> >> >> >> The what to do issue is, I agree, tough. >> >> >> >> One, change ideas/precepts about slaughter: >> Campaigns are underway. >> >> Thankfully the talk about this is finally making >> its way into livingrooms >> >> and kitchens, and even into poetry (and poetry >> listservs, it seems :)). >> >> >> >> Also, changing practices/percepts: We can each eat >> less meat, trying >> >> eventually to stop, and work on changing our >> relationship to bodily >> >> sensations around food and our expectations for >> certain tastes and bodily >> >> sensations. Cultivate empathy toward all animals, >> not just dogs and cats. >> >> Work to reach the point where hunting, slaughter >> farming, and eating meat >> >> are seen for what they are: unnecessary, immoral >> practices. Leaflet, give >> >> talks, teach courses, write essays and poems. >> Direct action is good too: I >> >> know people who would chain themselves to CAFO >> barns; a person in town here >> >> goes to meet local farmers where we live after >> asking them if she can come >> >> talk to them about what they do and see if they're >> open to having their >> >> minds changed. They say yes. >> >> >> >> There is reason to be hopeful. I've been listening >> to Steven Pinker's >> >> tour de force about the steady decline of violence >> in developing countries >> >> since the late 17th Century and the rise of >> liberal humanism. We already >> >> treat animals far less violently than we used to. >> We've stopped behemoths >> >> of injustice before. It takes a while but a >> concerted effort wins out >> >> eventually. One day meat eating will go the way of >> smoking. People will >> >> still do it, but it will not be considered >> something good or careful to do, >> >> and it will asymptote out. >> >> >> >> RE "humane": The current thought (as far as I've >> seen it) about "humane >> >> treatment" runs this way: there is nothing humane >> about slaughtering a >> >> being, discarding its life and taking its body >> from it. No matter how you >> >> slice it (the pun is warranted, sorry), it's >> gruesome and murderous and >> >> wrong. We need to call a spade a spade and not >> doll it up with euphemisms >> >> designed to make us feel better. Too, there are >> some researchers who see a >> >> causal correlation between "humane" rhetoric, >> ostensibly humane slaughter >> >> and an *increase* in slaughter rates. >> >> >> >> So, if the end is slaughter, It's theft, murder, >> and greed wrapped into >> >> one. To eat meat is to exercise greed at the cost >> of another's life. We >> >> need to start seeing that and talking more about >> it. It'll change >> >> eventually. >> >> >> >> I've learned of some other poets doing work like >> this, expanding our >> >> circle of empathy -- helping to see animals as >> beings who should be >> >> accorded bodily and mental sovereignty: >> >> >> >> Ashley Capps >> >> Juliana Spahr >> >> Jack Collom >> >> Oni Buchanan >> >> Tao Lin (one of his only that I've seen) >> >> Alison Titus (I think) >> >> Gerald Stern >> >> Ariana Reines >> >> Cara Benson >> >> Jack Collom >> >> Whitman >> >> Philip Jenks >> >> Franz Wright >> >> Merrill Gilfillan >> >> >> >> Anny: 30 years! That's wonderful. How many animals >> you've not eaten! :) >> >> >> >> On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 7:39 PM, >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Again: Define arable. Not the same as >> sustainable, whatever it's used to >> >>> grow, fodder or fruit. So let's talk about >> land that would be used for >> >>> agriculture if we all became vegetarians. >> Grazing lands are mostly >> >>> agriculturally marginal at best. That which >> isn't would have to be >> >>> intensively cultivated. And all those minor >> things you dismiss are in fact >> >>> pretty major. Details do have a way of >> clouding one's vision. >> >>> >> >>> But the issues aren't about the sciences you >> appeal to. Try sociology >> >>> and psychology. We can know very clearly what >> we think ought to be done, >> >>> that doesn't mean we can map a way (a >> projective graph is just a fantasy) >> >>> to get there. Though it may be a pretty >> thought. >> >>> >> >>> In the interim, one could at least proscribe >> the horrible current >> >>> practices in favor of more humane treatment. >> There are relatively few >> >>> cultural barriers to this. >> >>> >> >>> But let's remember that human civilizations >> developed to distance us >> >>> from the horrific lives o0f beasts, who in the >> wild lead lives of constant >> >>> terror, those that grieve, constantly, and die >> painfully 100% of the time, >> >>> mostly by being eaten alive. It's not as if >> there's a peaceable kingdom out >> >>> there. >> >>> >> >>> Enough. I hate simple solutions to complex >> problems, and I think beyond >> >>> treatment that's as humane as possible there's >> little we can agree upon in >> >>> terms of what's possible to accomplish. >> >>> >> >>> Beat, >> >>> >> >>> Mark >> >>> >> >>> -----Original Message----- >> >>> From: gabriel gudding ** >> >>> Sent: Oct 30, 2011 3:58 PM >> >>> To: NewPoetry List ** >> >>> Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat >> consumption >> >>> >> >>> Hi Mark, >> >>> >> >>> *Arable land: You got it exactly backward. >> Plant agriculture uses less >> >>> land to yield an equal amount of nutrition as >> slaughter agriculture, >> >>> meaning not only the redress of moral wrong >> done against animals, but the >> >>> redress of famine caused by inefficient land >> use. 2/3rds of current arable >> >>> land is used for meat production. Only 8% of >> current arable land is used >> >>> for human consumption. Meat consumption uses >> 60% more arable land than >> >>> plant agriculture for the same nutritional >> value. Health problems >> >>> associated with meat diet: toxins contained in >> meat, obesity, cancer, heart >> >>> disease, etc. >> >>> >> >>> *Scale: Yes, you can fine-tune the question of >> harm caused by the >> >>> consumption of meat to extreme cases in order >> to reduce it to absurdities >> >>> (your examples of wood for houses being taken >> from streams thus impacting >> >>> salmon, urban cows in India eating things, >> this or that farmer in Africa >> >>> fencing against elephants, etc). But this is >> willful ignorance to a problem >> >>> about whose causation there is wide, nearly >> unanimous, consensus among the >> >>> global scientific community. We are dealing >> with a single massive problem: >> >>> global factory farming; the statistics of >> global meat consumption in the >> >>> past 20 years show a radical increase in >> consumption that does not scale >> >>> with population increase. People have never >> before consumed meat, per >> >>> capita, on such a scale. Per capita >> consumption has skyrocketed. This per >> >>> statistics from dozens of organizations. There >> is one large culprit. All >> >>> the little problems you cite are nothing >> compared to this. >> >>> >> >>> Ethicopolitical: Famine and human starvation >> is related to most arable >> >>> land being used to raise animals for >> slaughter. Both human animals and >> >>> non-human animals will benefit from people >> simply reducing their meat >> >>> consumption. Start by trying to reduce it by >> half. And eventually trying to >> >>> asymptote-out one's consumption. One can stop >> altogether if they put their >> >>> minds to it. It is not easy to change how one >> eats, but it is a simple way >> >>> to put one's liberal humanism (or liberal >> post-humanism) where one's mouth >> >>> is. >> >>> >> >>> Moral: The need to intellectually and >> emotionally understand that the >> >>> meat on the plate (tasty as it is) was a >> recently living fellow being who >> >>> wanted to live and feared and suffered in its >> death -- and whose death the >> >>> eater directly contributes to and benefits >> from. Some surmise that birds >> >>> and other mammals actually grieve and fear far >> more deeply than humans. >> >>> What we do know is that their worlds matter >> deeply to them, that they >> >>> suffer profoundly in the gulags and >> concentration camps people put them in, >> >>> and that they know they are going to be >> slaughtered. And it's deeply wrong. >> >>> >> >>> The video: was not a shock video. It's a >> simple interview with an >> >>> astrophysicist about expanding our circle of >> empathy. >> >>> >> >>> Poets who do this well: Ariana Reines (The >> Cow, prev. mentioned). >> >>> Whitman LoG passim. Who are others, I wonder? >> >>> >> >>> Gabe >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 10:58 AM, >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>>> Gabe: It pains me to comment on what you >> clearly mean as a compliment, >> >>>> but here goes. In much of the US irony is >> considered a vice and a meanness. >> >>>> While it can be wielded as a weapon (or, >> as I think I do, played as a >> >>>> game), in itself it's neither vicious nor >> mean. Irony requires the holding >> >>>> of two contradictory thoughts in mind at >> the same time. Ideally one applies >> >>>> it even to causes and concepts with which >> one is in sympathy. It's at the >> >>>> heart of thought. Without it one becomes >> victim to one's own starry eyes, >> >>>> or to the peddlers of simple solutions, >> and to the extent that the lack is >> >>>> a national failing it gives us the tea >> party and the occupy movement and >> >>>> may well give us a government run more >> thoroughly by lunatics. >> >>>> >> >>>> It's also, as a New Yorker and a Jew, my >> native language. >> >>>> >> >>>> So here are a very few bits of irony about >> the rights of animals.: >> >>>> >> >>>> Like wooden houses? Chances are the wood >> was harvested from the >> >>>> watersheds of salmon streams, causing them >> to silt up, thereby destroying >> >>>> the unique populations that bred in them. >> Destroying forests is not real >> >>>> helpful in other ways, too. >> >>>> >> >>>> In Africa, where safari tourism is a major >> source of income, >> >>>> subsistence farmers routinely kill wild >> herbivores like elephants in order >> >>>> be able to feed their children. >> >>>> >> >>>> There is one large group of traditional >> vegetarians in the world, >> >>>> members of certain castes in India. Large >> numbers of unexploited cows >> >>>> wander about, devouring food supplies. >> This doesn't have much effect on the >> >>>> increasing percentage of the population >> that no longer depends on >> >>>> subsistence agriculture. Those folks take >> to eating meat as they become >> >>>> more prosperous, the more prosperous the >> more meat. This is the pattern >> >>>> everywhere that more people can afford it. >> Much of that prosperity depends >> >>>> on the carrying capacity of the land (and >> will do so increasingly as >> >>>> population increases), which, as you point >> out, is reduced by large-scale >> >>>> meat production. Ironic, isn't it? >> >>>> >> >>>> What you call arable is often only so at a >> considerable stretch. The >> >>>> Tonto Valley in Arizona, for instance, is >> as dry as a bone. Sometimes it >> >>>> doesn't rain at all for a year or two, and >> it never rains more than a few >> >>>> inches a year. But the sun shines all the >> time and frosts are rare , so, >> >>>> add water and you have the largest source >> of iceberg lettuce, which is >> >>>> essentially a membrane for holding water, >> in the country. Evaporation rates >> >>>> from the fields is very high. That water >> used to make its way to the Sea of >> >>>> Cortez, via the Colorado River. Other >> hyper-productive "arable" land in the >> >>>> watershed includes the Imperial Valley, >> also irrigated from the Colorado, >> >>>> which now grows mostly fodder but in a >> perfect world might grow vegetables. >> >>>> The irrigation system is converting to the >> drip method--much of the acreage >> >>>> already has--but that doesn't stop, it >> merely slows the process. Less fresh >> >>>> water flowing through the Colorado and its >> tributaries means that in most >> >>>> years no water reaches the Sea of Cortez, >> and sea water has invaded the >> >>>> aquifer in the delta, once highly >> productive and now an immense salt flat. >> >>>> The salinity of the Sea itself has risen, >> killing off large amounts of sea >> >>>> life. The impact on fish eaters and >> harvesters is immediate, but even if >> >>>> they too turned vegetarian the sea would >> still be too salty for the >> >>>> creatures in it.? The same is true of >> the Great Valley in California, the >> >>>> most productive farmland in the country, >> only arable because of intensive >> >>>> irrigation from desert rivers or the >> massive diversion of water from wetter >> >>>> ecosystems. >> >>>> I haven't even mentioned the impact of >> fertilizer runoff and >> >>>> sedimentation in these systems. >> >>>> >> >>>> The problem isn't that people eat too many >> cows, it's that there are >> >>>> too many people. No animal has a larger >> ecological footprint than the folks >> >>>> you love, even if they live on celery and >> weave their shoes from chaff. >> >>>> >> >>>> Most people like animal protein, which I >> for one eat with my full sense >> >>>> of irony intact. Some people fail to >> thrive without it--hey, we don't all >> >>>> metabolize foods in the same way. But >> let's gtrant that the majority could >> >>>> live on a carefully-planned vegetarian >> diet. It doesn't, for a variety of >> >>>> reasons, including the position of meat in >> their cultures. The problem, for >> >>>> those who would like to see a vegetarian >> world, is how to get from here to >> >>>> there, beyond individual conversions by >> shock videos. One of the ironies of >> >>>> our common existence is that humans can >> rationalize almost anything. >> >>>> >> >>>> Best, >> >>>> >> >>>> Mark >> >>>> >> >>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>> From: gabriel gudding ** >> >>>> Sent: Oct 30, 2011 12:48 AM >> >>>> To: NewPoetry List ** >> >>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / >> disagree?) the fetish of the line >> >>>> >> >>>> To this notion of empathy and literature, >> been listening to Steven >> >>>> Pinker's latest book, about trends in >> declining violence, and was intrigued >> >>>> by his calling literature an "empathy >> technology" --- in that it allows us >> >>>> to imagine the lives and minds of other >> persons and animals. He correlates >> >>>> the rise of the realist novel, eg, with >> the advent of 19thC reform >> >>>> movements in Europe and the US. Kind of >> interesting. >> >>>> >> >>>> I think there is some role poetry can play >> (and has) in this long >> >>>> effort to help wake a radical empathy for >> non-human animals. >> >>>> >> >>>> Love this clip from Neil deGrasse Tyson: >> >>>> >> >>>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL6hj6xLE8w >> >>>> [BTW, thank you, Annie, for the welcome. >> >>>> And having known Mark online for now 13 >> years (?), and having had >> >>>> dinner with him, and worked with him on >> some translations for his amazing >> >>>> anthology of Cuban poetry, I can say with >> confidence he's one of the least >> >>>> ironic people I've met. :)] >> >>>> >> >>>> On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 10:36 PM, >> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> Moi? >> >>>>> >> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>>> From: Halvard Johnson ** >> >>>>> Sent: Oct 29, 2011 4:06 PM >> >>>>> To: NewPoetry List ** >> >>>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / >> disagree?) the fetish of the line >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Mark, you're being naughty. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>>? Serving the tri-state area. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Hal >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Halvard Johnson >> >>>>> ================ >> >>>>> >> >>>>> halvard at gmail.com >> >>>>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> >>>>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> >>>>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> >>>>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >>>>> >> >>>>> http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >> >>>>>? >> >>>>> Remains To Be Seen >> >>>>> *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) >> >>>>> ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. >> III) >> >>>>> , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other >> Poems >> >>>>> *, *Mainly Black >> >>>>> , *Obras P?blicas >> >>>>> ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third >> Eye and Other Sonnets >> >>>>> ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of >> Clones >> >>>>> ; **Tango Bouquet >> >>>>> ; **Theory of Harmony >> >>>>> ; **Rapsodie espagnole >> >>>>> ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway >> >>>>> ; **The Sonnet Project >> >>>>> ; **G(e)nome ; >> **Winter >> >>>>> Journey ; >> **Eclipse >> >>>>> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan >> >>>>> ;* >> >>>>> *Transparencies & >> Projections >> >>>>> * >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 2:02 PM, >> >> wrote: >> >>>>> >> >>>>>> Leather-bound? >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> If the same number of animals >> would need to be fed they would use up >> >>>>>> precisely the same amount of land, >> presuming that they ate the same >> >>>>>> industrially-produced crops. If >> they foraged instead on whatever grows >> >>>>>> uncultivated it would take a great >> deal more land. Easy answers are more >> >>>>>> fun. Sorry. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>>>> From: gabriel gudding ** >> >>>>>> Sent: Oct 29, 2011 2:55 PM >> >>>>>> To: NewPoetry List ** >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] (agree / >> disagree?) the fetish of the line >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> We would use less arable land than >> we do now. I think the figures are >> >>>>>> 60% less. Will look. >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> A good example of a poetry book >> that does this kind of work while >> >>>>>> still being brilliant poetry is >> Ariana Reines' _The Cow_ (Fence 2006). >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> On Sat, Oct 29, 2011 at 1:23 PM, >> >> wrote: >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>>> If we all stopped eating >> animals the first necessity would be >> >>>>>>> massive slaughter, or all >> those gas-spewing beasts would destroy every bit >> >>>>>>> of vegetation on the planet. >> Thouigh I suuppose we could neuter them all, >> >>>>>>> so that after they've >> decimated the flora the surviving humans could begin >> >>>>>>> repopulating. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>>>>> From: gabriel gudding ** >> >>>>>>> Sent: Oct 29, 2011 12:52 PM >> >>>>>>> To: NewPoetry List ** >> >>>>>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] >> (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Bill, sorry for the mix-up. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Alex, I understand the >> pleasure in using a blurb-sized excerpt to >> >>>>>>> stimulate conversation. Maybe >> that's partly what blurbs are for: give >> >>>>>>> people something to argue >> about. In part, that's my point. Art is often >> >>>>>>> more of an activity of making >> distinctions internal to art -- in order to >> >>>>>>> distinguish oneself, one's >> school, or one's viewpoint, or as a testimony of >> >>>>>>> one's taste -- than in doing >> something else, finding pleasure in something >> >>>>>>> else (am thinking here of the >> work of Pierre Bourdieu, for instance, >> >>>>>>> specifically The Field of >> Cultural Production). >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> By which I'm not saying the >> discussion of the blurb wasn't trying to >> >>>>>>> do something useful. Just that >> there is a tendency to struggle for >> >>>>>>> distinction using features >> that, over time, become more and more technical. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Regarding yr response to the >> point about ethical & political >> >>>>>>> reparative action as an >> important component of poetry/literature: I >> >>>>>>> understand your concern there; >> there is a history of debate about it. My >> >>>>>>> concern is less with what you >> call the future of humanity and more with the >> >>>>>>> reality of how we are treating >> animals now. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> This is the 6th largest mass >> extinction in the natural record. And >> >>>>>>> we are strangely unaware of >> this -- and if aware we are on the whole >> >>>>>>> apathetic. Directly related to >> this mass extinction is the factory farming >> >>>>>>> of animals. It is the single >> largest factor in global warming, directly >> >>>>>>> related to a meat-based diet. >> Humans kill about 60 billion animals each >> >>>>>>> year for their meat, 10 >> billion annually in the US alone. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> We need, for instance, to stop >> eating animals. And we need to begin >> >>>>>>> awakening our own capacities >> for loving-kindness -- extending that >> >>>>>>> mindstate into the realities >> of our own diet, our own taste for meat. If >> >>>>>>> someone can't stop altogether, >> then just eat half of what was eaten before. >> >>>>>>> The next year, eat half of >> that. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Poems and essays and >> conversations that help widen our understanding >> >>>>>>> of subjectivity and awaken our >> empathy to include animals as individuals >> >>>>>>> who should be accorded bodily >> and mental sovereignty, whose lives and >> >>>>>>> relationships matter to them >> and because of that should matter to us -- >> >>>>>>> matter to the point where we >> stop eating them -- is one example of the >> >>>>>>> kinds of poems & debates I >> can get behind. That is a worthwhile project, to >> >>>>>>> my mind. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Anthologies debating and >> making statements about the line strike me >> >>>>>>> as a waste of resources and >> time -- unless they contain some excoriation of >> >>>>>>> the myopia historically >> endemic to art and a reminder there is a world of >> >>>>>>> suffering out there beyond our >> technical myopia. >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> Certainly it's possible to do >> both. Literary history suggests >> >>>>>>> however that technical >> concerns tend to so stimulate people into delusional >> >>>>>>> struggles that they forget >> about other stuff. (Am thinking, re this last >> >>>>>>> assertion, of the work, again, >> of Pierre Bourdieu and to some extent Jed >> >>>>>>> Rasula). >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 28, 2011 at 9:57 >> PM, Alexander Dickow < >> >>>>>>> alexdickow9 at yahoo.com> >> wrote: >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Welcome, Gabe! As stated >> here earlier by a number of us, there's a >> >>>>>>>> great deal of esteem here >> for your work, and you'll be perhaps relieved to >> >>>>>>>> know that all were quite >> conscious that a mere blurb-sized excerpt was >> >>>>>>>> likely not enough to judge >> an argument. Although I think there are indirect >> >>>>>>>> ways in which >> preoccupation with form connects to the ethical concerns >> you >> >>>>>>>> mention, just as I am >> reciprocally a bit skeptical toward the claims made >> >>>>>>>> for poetry in the name of >> ethics, which often appears to me as a decidedly >> >>>>>>>> meek version of the >> Romantic ideal of transformative literature (ie, poetry >> >>>>>>>> transforms individuals if >> not "the World", which is just a way of setting >> >>>>>>>> one's sights a great deal >> lower than originally intended, while claiming >> >>>>>>>> that the fundamental >> ambition hasn't changed). >> >>>>>>>> I think about technical >> matters; you've read Caramboles; am I >> >>>>>>>> unconcerned by the future >> of humanity? I'm not sure. On the other hand, I >> >>>>>>>> wouldn't make an anthology >> on the line either. >> >>>>>>>> Welcome to NewPo, in any >> event. Try not to scuffle with Bob and >> >>>>>>>> Halvard, and be nice to >> Anny, Jim (aka Finnegan) and Amy (King), and you'll >> >>>>>>>> be just fine. And when >> people quote Frost...let them ;) >> >>>>>>>> Amicalement, >> >>>>>>>> Alex >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> www.alexdickow.net/blog/ >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> les mots! ah quel d?sert ? >> la fin >> >>>>>>>> merveilleux. -- Henri >> Droguet >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> ------------------------------ >> >>>>>>>> *From:* gabriel gudding >> >> >>>>>>>> *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >>>>>>>> *Sent:* Friday, October >> 28, 2011 10:44 PM >> >>>>>>>> *Subject:* [New-Poetry] >> (agree / disagree?) the fetish of the line >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Having learned the >> line/fetish essay was being discussed here, and >> >>>>>>>> having read some of the >> comments about it in your archives, I thought I >> >>>>>>>> could subscribe to >> New-Poetry and clarify what was meant in the essay. Hope >> >>>>>>>> that's okay. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> This might be a nice >> chance to do so, since the editors of that >> >>>>>>>> anthology only gave the >> solicited contributors 750 words to convey >> >>>>>>>> something insightful about >> "the line." Not easy. I took about 730 words. >> >>>>>>>> Not much room for nuanced >> explanation, barely room for frank assertion. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> By saying that the line is >> not a feature of poetry I wasn't >> >>>>>>>> suggesting lines aren't >> found in poems, nor was I making any assertions >> >>>>>>>> about prose poetry versus >> metrical or free verse. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> The essay doesn't suggest >> the line should be abolished or that it >> >>>>>>>> originated with Modernists >> or fascists etc. Nor was I criticizing any >> >>>>>>>> particular kind of line >> (eg, metrical, as was suggested) or the notion of >> >>>>>>>> the linebreak. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> The essay is mostly making >> the assertion that whatever the >> >>>>>>>> technical phenomena are >> that get called "the line" at any particular point >> >>>>>>>> in literary history (eg, >> hypertrophic lines associated w/ strophic verse, >> >>>>>>>> prose lines, iambic >> pentameter, this or that technical description), such >> >>>>>>>> arguments (1) really do >> not matter in any way extrinsic to specifically >> >>>>>>>> disciplinary concerns, and >> (2) any ways that they *do* matter >> >>>>>>>> specific to disciplinary >> concerns are really meaningless in terms of the >> >>>>>>>> wider, and very dire, >> issues facing our collective human and animal future, >> >>>>>>>> which I start talking >> about later on in the essay. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> A basic concern of the >> essay is that poetry often gets defined >> >>>>>>>> merely by, from, or >> through its technical features. I might cite, as an >> >>>>>>>> example of this, Bill >> (whom I admire, btw) saying "The line IS poetry." >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> An unspoken, but hopefully >> not too implicit part of the essay, is >> >>>>>>>> my conviction that >> whatever poetry is, it is larger than its technical >> >>>>>>>> debates, attempted >> definitions, and its ostensible "parts" (like line, >> >>>>>>>> rhythm, sound -- all of >> which are merely guesses at conceptualizing >> >>>>>>>> something we don't really >> understand). The guesses and debates are their >> >>>>>>>> own thing; the thing we >> don't understand is something else -- hence my >> >>>>>>>> admittedly rebarbative >> assertion that the line is not a feature of poetry. >> >>>>>>>> "The line" is something we >> pretend to understand and make distinctions and >> >>>>>>>> assertions about. While >> poetry is something we don't understand altogether. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> *The basic point the essay >> makes is that whatever poetry is, and >> >>>>>>>> whatever its minor (and at >> times cataclysmic-seeming) technical debates and >> >>>>>>>> disagreements, poetry >> (both mainstream and >> >>>>>>>> >> experimental/avant-garde/innovative) has had, since the >> early 20th century >> >>>>>>>> in the US (and the late >> 19th century in France), more of an interest in its >> >>>>>>>> own debates about >> technique and technicalities than an interest in seeing >> >>>>>>>> itself as a mode of >> reparative ethical action.* >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> And I'm trying to suggest >> that the former blinds us to the >> >>>>>>>> possibilities of the >> latter. There is an institutional tendency to focus on >> >>>>>>>> and debate poetry's >> technical features and ignore poetry's wider potential >> >>>>>>>> role as mode of ethical >> and political reparative action. I really think >> >>>>>>>> issues about the line are >> not worth debating or making books about. Too >> >>>>>>>> much other work to be done >> with our energies. >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> *The real concern of my >> essay (and this post) is not the line or >> >>>>>>>> these debates, but the >> fact that we are living through the 6th largest >> >>>>>>>> extinction of animals (and >> possibly our own) in the nature record.* >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> I was given 750 words to >> disagree with the premise of the anthology >> >>>>>>>> for which I'd been >> solicited. Because of limited word count, figured I >> >>>>>>>> should use a provocative >> tone. :) >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Anyway, thanks for letting >> me stick my nose in the door here and >> >>>>>>>> say hi.... :) >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> Gabe >> >>>>>>>> PS, in case you'd like to >> see what I meant by the larger issues and >> >>>>>>>> work before us, it's found >> here: >> >>>>>>>> http://poems.com/special_features/prose/essay_broken_thing.php >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >> >>>>>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >>>>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >> >>>>>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >>>>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> **** >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >> >>>>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >>>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>>>> **** >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >> >>>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>> **** >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >> >>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> **** >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >> >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>> **** >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> >>> New-Poetry mailing list >> >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> New-Poetry mailing list >> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> >> > **** >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New-Poetry mailing list >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 6 >> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 00:13:46 -0500 >> From: gabriel gudding >> To: NewPoetry List >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat >> consumption >> Message-ID: >> ??? >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> David, >> Good to know you're on the list. :) Love Collom's poems. >> Taught a volume of >> ecopoetics this semester, which prompted me to start >> writing an article >> called "Six Problems with Ecopoetics." There are some >> serious problems with >> ecopoetics. Some thought *my* article was academic-ese: >> well, some >> ecopoetics essays are incomprehensible. Jack Collom's >> thought is >> refreshing, smart, to the point, sensible, insightful, >> forceful. Plus his >> poetry is remarkable. Read too many essays that were trying >> to sound like >> rocket science, but Collom seems to understand too much is >> at stake to not >> say what he has to say clearly, with force. >> >> Mark, >> Re us having "lots of other things to worry about": In >> terms of material >> effect on human well-being (famine, war, global warming) >> there is really no >> single larger issue. It's singular effect on global >> warming, oceans, >> rivers, aquifers, geopolitical tension, famine, war, makes >> this one a >> keystone, its immorality notwithstanding. Same goes for >> long-term >> well-being for all other animal species. >> >> Hal, >> It wd work the same way any other supply-demand thing >> works: decrease >> demand, fewer livestock will be grown. There is no >> incentive to breed them >> if they are not purchased. It's not like humans are >> providing some >> much-needed brake on their growth, as if they are just >> naturally breeding >> and we're tamping down their ballooning presence and if we >> stop we'll all >> of a sudden be up to our necks in hooves and poultry. :) If >> we don't have >> an incentive to kill them we won't grow them. >> >> On Sun, Oct 30, 2011 at 11:30 PM, >> wrote: >> >> > I've tried to find out what ecopoetics is beyond plain >> old nature poetry >> > and been told that it's too complicated to explain. >> Care to give it a try? >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > >From: David Baratier >> > >Sent: Oct 30, 2011 11:48 PM >> > >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat >> consumption >> > > >> > >Howdy Gabe & Anny-- >> > > >> > >I am one of the veggies too, over 20 years of not >> eating animals, birds, >> > or fish. Except for the ones that would like to >> disembowel or ignore me, >> > animals are my friends. >> > > >> > >Just the choice of single crop, till farming >> creates enough problems to >> > the environment without tapping into the subjects of >> GE crops, GMOs, >> > hormones, and raising living beings for food. >> > > >> > >Part of a serial work called "Political Poems" I >> have worked on addresses >> > the subject, but also other areas of detriment to the >> earth, US worker >> > oppression etcetera. I am just starting to send these >> out, there is one in >> > Redheaded Stepchild, another in the recent issue of >> Compost. >> > > >> > >Thinking of Mark's irony, and seeing Jack C's >> name, I am still not so >> > sold on ecopoetics. Thoughts on the topic? >> > > >> > >Be well >> > > >> > >David Baratier, Editor >> > > >> > >Pavement Saw Press >> > >321 Empire Street >> > >Montpelier OH 43543 >> > >http://pavementsaw.org >> > > >> > >Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at >> > >http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 >> > > >> > >Facebook Page >> > >http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=25857379734&ref=ts >> > > >> > > >> > >_______________________________________________ >> > >New-Poetry mailing list >> > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New-Poetry mailing list >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 7 >> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 01:50:33 -0400 (EDT) >> From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com >> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat >> consumption >> Message-ID: <1ab87.332c456d.3bdf9129 at cs.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> I'll stop eating hamburgers when a cow addresses an ethical >> question to me >> (preferably in English), and so on with other species. Gee, >> Gabe, it's great >> to see you hijacking yet another literary LISTSERV for your >> personal >> agendas.? Are Kent and Mairead out there too?? >> Revenons nos moutons? >> >> Sam >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 8 >> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 06:52:20 +0000 >> From: R Dillon >> To: >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat >> consumption >> Message-ID: >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252" >> >> >> >>? In order to believe Mr. Gudding, one must believe Dr. >> Michael Mann of Penn State, who is being investigated by the >> attorney general of the Commonwealth of Virginia for >> committing fraud in pursuit of global warming theory so >> that, among other things (millions in grants and maybe a >> position with George "Goldfinger" Soros), poets like Mr. >> Gudding can write ersatz scientific writing in the tradition >> of Lysenko under the banner of literary writing but which >> really is socialist propaganda (Read President of the Czech >> Republic, Vaclav Klaus).? Dr. Mann originated the >> "Hockey Stick" graph which purported to "prove" that carbon >> dioxide levels in the atmosphere were rising to >> unbelievable, alarming levels due to human industry.? >> Dr. Mann's back channeled communications to his fellow >> conspirator, Dr. Jones, at East Anglia University, Great >> Britain, revealed that he was perfectly aware that he was >> cooking the books.? It was this disclosure that >> derailed the RadLib propaganda of another >>? bad poet, Albert Gore, former Vice-President of the United >> States under William Jefferson Blythe Clinton.? Mr. >> Gudding is, in my view, a dupe and a shill for this >> ideology, as is Jack Collom, who, with his friends at JKSDP, >> SDS, and the Weathermen, attacked (by invading, holding >> poetry readings, and trashing the grounds, like their >> students today are doing across the country), ruined the >> nuclear research facility, Rocky Flats, back in the 1980's, >> setting back science in America for a generation, while >> competitors like China and France continue nuclear >> development.? These poets and their leaders are >> LUDDITES and anti-American operatives. Their efforts are now >> amplified by the current occupant of the White House and his >> EPA. Google Dr. Michael Mann, Penn State, Global Warming >> Fraud if you don't want to believe me.???(I >> await the charge of racism or of sexual harassment, or both, >> pursuant to being kicked off this discussion list for >> writing outside the box about posts which, in >> ? my view, are outside the box.? The box of >> sanity.)Global Climate Scam - Exposing the truth about >> global warming ...www.globalclimatescam.com/Cached - >> SimilarYou +1'd this publicly. UndoMike Kelly, who owns the >> auto lot where one of General Motors' combined ... months >> after obtaining more than $400000 in federal stimulus funds, >> TR Auto Truck Plaza off .... Dr. Michael Mann spoke >> Wednesday at the Geological Society of America's ...?among >> the most guilty parties in what we call the global warming >> scam. ... >> Global Climate Scam ? Archive for >> Economicswww.globalclimatescam.com/category/economics/CachedYou >> +1'd this publicly. Undo15+ items ? Archive for the >> ?Economics? Category. ? Previous Entries. Oct. >> ? 26 ? Volt Drains Power from Economy, Obama's 2012 >> Campaign ? Posted by ...? 23 ? Tennessee Electrified Truck >> Terminal Files for Bankruptcy After $400000 ...? 12 ? >> Protestors Greet Global Warming Author in Minneapolis ? >> Posted by Dan ...Show more results from >> globalclimatescam.comFrom: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com >> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 01:50:33 -0400 >> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat >> consumption >> >> I'll stop eating hamburgers when a cow addresses an ethical >> question to me (preferably in English), and so on with other >> species. Gee, Gabe, it's great to see you hijacking yet >> another literary LISTSERV for your personal agendas.? >> Are Kent and Mairead out there too?? Revenons nos >> moutons? >> >> >> >> Sam >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> ??? >> ???????? >> ?????? ??? >> ? >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 9 >> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 01:52:25 -0500 >> From: gabriel gudding >> To: NewPoetry List >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat >> consumption >> Message-ID: >> ??? >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> I do beg your pardon, Sam. I learned an essay I wrote was >> being discussed >> on this listserv. >> >> I signed on to join that conversation and clarify why I >> wrote it. This is >> the conversation that ensued from that. >> >> I believe you are referencing a four week argument on an >> infamously >> contentious listserv now twelve (12) years ago: 1999. >> >> If I am not welcome here, I am happy to go. Are you asking >> me to leave? >> >> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 12:50 AM, >> wrote: >> >> > I'll stop eating hamburgers when a cow addresses an >> ethical question to me >> > (preferably in English), and so on with other species. >> Gee, Gabe, it's >> > great to see you hijacking yet another literary >> LISTSERV for your personal >> > agendas.? Are Kent and Mairead out there >> too?? Revenons nos moutons? >> > >> > Sam >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New-Poetry mailing list >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 10 >> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 11:05:45 +0100 >> From: Anny Ballardini >> To: NewPoetry List >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat >> consumption >> Message-ID: >> ??? >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> Gabriel, I think this was a warm welcome Sam forwarded to >> you. I smiled. >> Richard Dillon, Mark Weiss, and Hal Johnson will keep on >> eating meat, >> whatever you say. While for me, your posts strengthened my >> position (not >> that it needed to be strengthened), better, it gave me >> further answers >> should anybody argue against my choice in my presence. >> Radical positions >> will inevitably find a radical opposition. Although I am >> not a Communist >> nor a Socialist by the existing political standards. >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 7:52 AM, gabriel gudding >> wrote: >> >> > I do beg your pardon, Sam. I learned an essay I wrote >> was being discussed >> > on this listserv. >> > >> > I signed on to join that conversation and clarify why >> I wrote it. This is >> > the conversation that ensued from that. >> > >> > I believe you are referencing a four week argument on >> an infamously >> > contentious listserv now twelve (12) years ago: 1999. >> > >> > If I am not welcome here, I am happy to go. Are you >> asking me to leave? >> > >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 11 >> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 11:57:06 +0000 >> From: almaginnes at aol.com >> To: "NewPoetry List" >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat >> consumption >> Message-ID: >> ??? <903983250-1320062225-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1657066608- at b14.c31.bise6.blackberry> >> ??? >> Content-Type: text/plain >> >> Nice too know we have our own resident right wing nitwit. >> Every listserv needs one. OK, off to the Weatherman >> meeting. >> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: R Dillon >> Sender: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 06:52:20 >> To: >> Reply-To: NewPoetry List >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat >> consumption >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 12 >> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 05:30:15 -0700 (PDT) >> From: Alexander Dickow >> To: NewPoetry List >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat >> consumption >> Message-ID: >> ??? <1320064215.36657.YahooMailNeo at web160107.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> Hey, I got an idea. Halvard, you have your cheeseburger >> sonnet? Gabe can write a veggieburger sonnet, Richard can >> write a right wing nut sonnet, and I'll take care of the >> socialist propaganda. And then we'll publish it as a big >> (eco)broadside. It'll be all democratical, see. Whaddaya >> say? >> Amicalement, >> Alex >> >> ? >> www.alexdickow.net/blog/ >> ? >> les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin >> merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: gabriel gudding >> To: NewPoetry List >> Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 2:52 AM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat >> consumption >> >> >> I do beg your pardon, Sam. I learned an essay I wrote was >> being discussed on this listserv.? >> >> I signed on to join that conversation and clarify why I >> wrote it. This is the conversation that ensued from that.? >> >> I believe you are referencing a four week argument on an >> infamously contentious listserv now twelve (12) years ago: >> 1999. >> >> If I am not welcome here, I am happy to go. Are you asking >> me to leave? >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 12:50 AM, >> wrote: >> >> I'll stop eating hamburgers when a cow addresses an ethical >> question to me (preferably in English), and so on with other >> species. Gee, Gabe, it's great to see you hijacking yet >> another literary LISTSERV for your personal agendas.? Are >> Kent and Mairead out there too?? Revenons nos moutons? >> > >> >Sam >> >_______________________________________________ >> >New-Poetry mailing list >> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> > >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 13 >> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 05:40:18 -0700 >> From: James Cervantes >> To: NewPoetry List >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat >> consumption >> Message-ID: >> ??? >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> I could contribute a soy sestina. >> >> - Jim, remembering fondly his alphabet soup and floating >> words on top >> >> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 5:30 AM, Alexander Dickow wrote: >> >> > Hey, I got an idea. Halvard, you have your >> cheeseburger sonnet? Gabe can >> > write a veggieburger sonnet, Richard can write a right >> wing nut sonnet, and >> > I'll take care of the socialist propaganda. And then >> we'll publish it as a >> > big (eco)broadside. It'll be all democratical, see. >> Whaddaya say? >> > Amicalement, >> > Alex >> > >> > www.alexdickow.net/blog/ >> > >> > les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin >> > merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > *From:* gabriel gudding >> > *To:* NewPoetry List >> > *Sent:* Monday, October 31, 2011 2:52 AM >> > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat >> consumption >> > >> > I do beg your pardon, Sam. I learned an essay I wrote >> was being discussed >> > on this listserv. >> > >> > I signed on to join that conversation and clarify why >> I wrote it. This is >> > the conversation that ensued from that. >> > >> > I believe you are referencing a four week argument on >> an infamously >> > contentious listserv now twelve (12) years ago: 1999. >> > >> > If I am not welcome here, I am happy to go. Are you >> asking me to leave? >> > >> > On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 12:50 AM, >> wrote: >> > >> > I'll stop eating hamburgers when a cow addresses an >> ethical question to me >> > (preferably in English), and so on with other species. >> Gee, Gabe, it's >> > great to see you hijacking yet another literary >> LISTSERV for your personal >> > agendas.? Are Kent and Mairead out there >> too?? Revenons nos moutons? >> > >> > Sam >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New-Poetry mailing list >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New-Poetry mailing list >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New-Poetry mailing list >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> > >> >> >> -- >> >> Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ >> >> The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org >> >> https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home >> >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning >> >> http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf >> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 14 >> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 09:46:57 -0400 (EDT) >> From: junction at earthlink.net >> To: NewPoetry List >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat >> consumption >> Message-ID: >> ??? <7008191.1320068817695.JavaMail.root at wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 15, Issue 42 >> ****************************************** >> > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 10:49:39 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 15:49:39 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <1320106232.41905.YahooMailNeo@web120527.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1ab87.332c456d.3bdf9129@cs.com> <903983250-1320062225-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1657066608-@b14.c31.bise6.blackberry> <1320099228.40072.YahooMailNeo@web120528.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1320103428.47142.YahooMailNeo@web120524.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1320106232.41905.YahooMailNeo@web120527.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sorry for you, for the child, for what seems a beautiful garden, that you should be able to replace these wonderful trees, Anny On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 1:10 AM, John Jeffrey wrote: > All the good stuff gone now: the birches, the pear tree, the Japanese > maple. Two catalpas--each with trunks about 3 feet wide--fell, too, > thankfully missing our house. I did use some of the wood to start fires in > the fireplace, though. Is that wrong? Should I just have let the tree go > free instead of putting my own greedy comfort first? > > Speaking of chainsaws (mine's electric and I've got no power, so it's > useless), all I can think of whenever I pull out the chainsaw is Frost's > brutal poem "'Out Out!'" Damn thing haunts me. > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Halvard Johnson > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Sent:* Monday, October 31, 2011 7:45 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > As to cost, probably an arm and a leg, if you're not careful with that > rented chainsaw. As a good conservative, though, make sure they cut away > only the bad stuff. The good stuff is what needs to be conserved. I'm a > conservative too, see? > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 5:23 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: > > Good to know., because I have some questions on how much it's going to > cost to clear out all the fallen and broken trees from my property. > (Snowstorm in CT.) > > Please discuss.. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Halvard Johnson > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Sent:* Monday, October 31, 2011 6:23 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > This is an open list. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 4:13 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: > > Counting me, I guess you'd have TWO resident right wing nitwits. I'm > grinding my teeth reading these exchanges. (And Sam, this don't eat the > hamburger conversation did not "ensue" from his essay; he mentioned > extinction in his first email and stop eating animals in his second.) > > Still, I don' t think this conversation has a place on this list. What > next? God? Guns? Abortion? > > JohnJ > > ------------------------------ > *From:* "almaginnes at aol.com" > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Sent:* Monday, October 31, 2011 7:57 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > Nice too know we have our own resident right wing nitwit. Every listserv > needs one. OK, off to the Weatherman meeting. > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: R Dillon > Sender: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 06:52:20 > To: > Reply-To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Tue Nov 1 11:12:39 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 08:12:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <1ab87.332c456d.3bdf9129@cs.com> <903983250-1320062225-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1657066608-@b14.c31.bise6.blackberry> <1320099228.40072.YahooMailNeo@web120528.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1320103428.47142.YahooMailNeo@web120524.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1320106232.41905.YahooMailNeo@web120527.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1320160359.63419.YahooMailNeo@web120524.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Thank you, Anny. >________________________________ >From: Anny Ballardini >To: NewPoetry List >Sent: Tuesday, November 1, 2011 10:49 AM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > >Sorry for you, for the child, for what seems a beautiful garden, that you should be able to replace these wonderful trees, >Anny > > >On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 1:10 AM, John Jeffrey wrote: > >All the good stuff gone now: the birches, the pear tree, the Japanese maple.? Two catalpas--each with trunks about 3 feet wide--fell, too, thankfully missing our house.? I did use some of the wood to start fires in the fireplace, though.? Is that wrong?? Should I just have let the tree go free instead of putting my own greedy comfort first? >> >> >>Speaking of chainsaws (mine's electric and I've got no power, so it's useless), all I can think of whenever I pull out the chainsaw is Frost's brutal poem "'Out Out!'"? Damn thing haunts me. >> >> >> >> >> >> >>>________________________________ >>>From: Halvard Johnson >>>To: NewPoetry List >>>Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 7:45 PM >>> >>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>> >>> >>>As to cost, probably an arm and a leg, if you're not careful with that rented chainsaw. As a good conservative, though, make sure they cut away only the bad stuff. The good stuff is what needs to be conserved. I'm a conservative too, see? >>> >>>?? ? >>> >>> >>>Serving the tri-state area. >>> >>> >>>Hal >>>Halvard Johnson >>>================ >>> >>>halvard at gmail.com >>>http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >>> >>>http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ >>>http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ >>>http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ >>>http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >>> >>> >>> >>>Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; >>>Transparencies & Projections >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 5:23 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: >>> >>>Good to know., because I have some questions on how much it's going to cost to clear out all the fallen and broken trees from my property.? (Snowstorm in CT.) >>>> >>>> >>>>Please discuss.. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>________________________________ >>>>>From: Halvard Johnson >>>>>To: NewPoetry List >>>>>Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 6:23 PM >>>>> >>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>This is an open list. >>>>> >>>>>?? ? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Serving the tri-state area. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Hal >>>>>Halvard Johnson >>>>>================ >>>>> >>>>>halvard at gmail.com >>>>>http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >>>>>http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ >>>>>http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ >>>>>http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ >>>>>http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; >>>>>Transparencies & Projections >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 4:13 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: >>>>> >>>>>Counting me, I guess you'd have TWO resident right wing nitwits.? I'm grinding my teeth reading these exchanges.? (And Sam, this don't eat the hamburger conversation did not "ensue" from his essay; he mentioned extinction in his first email and stop eating animals in his second.) >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>Still, I don' t think this conversation has a place on this list.? What next?? God?? Guns?? Abortion? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>JohnJ >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>________________________________ >>>>>>>From: "almaginnes at aol.com" >>>>>>>To: NewPoetry List >>>>>>>Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 7:57 AM >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>Nice too know we have our own resident right wing nitwit. Every listserv needs one. OK, off to the Weatherman meeting. >>>>>>>Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry >>>>>>> >>>>>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>>>From: R Dillon >>>>>>>Sender: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>>Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 06:52:20 >>>>>>>To: >>>>>>>Reply-To: NewPoetry List >>>>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>>>>>> >>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>>> >>>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >>> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > >-- >Anny Ballardini >http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! >Friedrich Nietzsche > >? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >Giovenale > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 13:34:05 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 12:34:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Well said, Sheila. I don't know the exact Singer quote you mention. I suspect, knowing his work and thought some, and knowing the controversy surrounding secondary quotes like that, as well as Singer's replies, that the context would alleviate/dissipate the apparent confusion around that statement. He is remarkably compassionate in his philosophy/responsibility to the human, & advocates we each do our best to live as simply as possible (he himself lives very simply), so that others elsewhere are not impacted by our consumption choices, and follows thru with that himself, giving a third of his salary to charities. Here's a superb lecture by him on the ethics of eating, clearly showing several of the complexities of the issue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHzwqf_JkrA This lecture seems like it cd be a good place to begin thinking about the severity of the issue and the difficulties of even perceiving the issue. The severity of this issue is intimately connected with its hard-to-perceive reality. And again, the poems I'm interested in are not to do w/ meat eating, but w/ ways of expanding/dissolving the bounds of the human and the animal, pushing the circle of empathy out wider. Lot of poems just use animals to meditate on the human (the famous dead-animal trope poem used to meditate on human death, eg). On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 10:20 PM, wrote: > OK, I take it back. You're not espousing a religious position, it's a > moral position. > > So let me see if I get it. It's ok to eat meat for reasons other than > taste? > > Is it ok for other omnivores to eat meat if we consider them our moral > equals? > > How about poems that don't reduce the complex to the simple? Any interest? > > -----Original Message----- > From: gabriel gudding ** > Sent: Oct 31, 2011 10:37 PM > To: NewPoetry List ** > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > Mark, didn't use any religious terminology except apostasy and soul as a > direct reference to your religious rhetoric "faith" etc. > > I think it's okay to label unconscionable actions immoral. Doing so need > not be religious. One can have an entirely secular and prescriptive > morality, in fact. We have one called the judicial system. It's not > perfect, but I'm grateful for it. > > Nor is it outside the mainstream of Western literature to assert that > killing another animal for its taste is immoral -- and not for religious > reasons. Goes back at least to Thoreau. Is a major reason Kafka wrote -- he > was a bigtime veggie. > > Anway yes, am taken with poems that (1) help us see this, and (2) > otherwise help us widen our circle of empathy, as we've been doing for > several centuries now, so if you think of any more (especially living now), > lemme know. > > On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 9:00 PM, wrote: > >> It's the prescriptive part that bugs me, Gabe. And the preachy. I think >> you're joking about apostasy, but in the context you might want to lay off >> the religious terminology for a while. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: gabriel gudding ** >> Sent: Oct 31, 2011 9:46 PM >> To: NewPoetry List ** >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >> >> Wow, lot of kids at the door. Slapped myself in the eye with a pirate >> eyepatch. >> >> >> Maybe someone cd put together an anthology of October brush-clearing >> poems. >> >> >> Stephen, thx for the tip about Snyder. >> >> >> >> Mark, many thanks for the tips re Cuban poets. Did query Kristin earlier >> today and she listed several Cuban poets, a few she's translating, Reina >> being one, and several Latin American writers in the latest Mandorla (14), >> who are doing this work. Like that poem of yours, too. Well noted re your >> apostasy. BTW there is no such thing as souls. :) >> >> >> >> Re whether empathy's relation to poetry is a suitable topic for a poetry >> listserv: >> >> >> >> Have been learning past few months about the history of empathy theory >> and its relation to the rise of Romanticism, poetry, fiction. Was a hotly >> contested, thought-thru, issue. German poets and painters argued this >> stuff. Lot of Germans in the 19thC thought other Germans had something to >> learn about empathy (turns out they were right?). As a matter of fact, the >> question of the animal was of deep interest in this. Franz Marc writes >> expressly about empathy and the animal. Some theorists of empathy who >> influenced a number of 20thC US, British, European poets: Schopenhauer, W?rringer, >> Lipps, Nietzsche, Titchener. "Einf?hling" -- "feeling into" -- was a kind >> of big deal in German art, especially the German counter-enlightenment >> romanticists, and it influenced European and US writers. Some who reacted >> against that: TS Eliot, Pound, Marinetti. But others who took up the >> mantle: Mayakovsky, Breton, Hans Arp, P?ret, Mina Loy, C?saire. Kind of a >> fascinating history. >> >> >> JohnJ: easy on your teeth and be careful with that chainsaw. :) >> >> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 7:19 PM, stephen russell < >> poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>> I avoid their pain. They're larger than me. >>> But they're pretty. >>> >>> --- On *Mon, 10/31/11, Halvard Johnson * wrote: >>> >>> >>> From: Halvard Johnson >>> >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>> To: "NewPoetry List" >>> Date: Monday, October 31, 2011, 8:16 PM >>> >>> >>> I can feel their pain. >>> >>> >>> Serving the tri-state area. >>> >>> Hal >>> >>> Halvard Johnson >>> ================ >>> >>> halvard at gmail.com >>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >>> >>> http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >>> >>> Remains To Be Seen >>> *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) >>> ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) >>> , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems >>> *, *Mainly Black >>> , *Obras P?blicas >>> ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets >>> ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones >>> ; **Tango Bouquet >>> ; **Theory of Harmony >>> ; **Rapsodie espagnole >>> ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway >>> ; **The Sonnet Project >>> ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter >>> Journey ; **Eclipse >>> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan >>> ;* >>> *Transparencies & Projections >>> * >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 6:15 PM, stephen russell < >>> poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com >>> > wrote: >>> >>> I wouldn't sweat it. In fact, the tree probably didn't give a fuck, >>> though I can't prove it. >>> >>> --- On *Mon, 10/31/11, John Jeffrey >>> >* wrote: >>> >>> >>> From: John Jeffrey >>> > >>> >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>> To: "NewPoetry List" >>> > >>> Date: Monday, October 31, 2011, 8:10 PM >>> >>> >>> All the good stuff gone now: the birches, the pear tree, the Japanese >>> maple. Two catalpas--each with trunks about 3 feet wide--fell, too, >>> thankfully missing our house. I did use some of the wood to start fires in >>> the fireplace, though. Is that wrong? Should I just have let the tree go >>> free instead of putting my own greedy comfort first? >>> >>> Speaking of chainsaws (mine's electric and I've got no power, so it's >>> useless), all I can think of whenever I pull out the chainsaw is Frost's >>> brutal poem "'Out Out!'" Damn thing haunts me. >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Halvard Johnson >>> > >>> *To:* NewPoetry List >>> > >>> *Sent:* Monday, October 31, 2011 7:45 PM >>> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>> >>> As to cost, probably an arm and a leg, if you're not careful with that >>> rented chainsaw. As a good conservative, though, make sure they cut away >>> only the bad stuff. The good stuff is what needs to be conserved. I'm a >>> conservative too, see? >>> >>> >>> Serving the tri-state area. >>> >>> Hal >>> >>> Halvard Johnson >>> ================ >>> >>> halvard at gmail.com >>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ >>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ >>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ >>> >>> http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >>> >>> Remains To Be Seen >>> *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) >>> ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) >>> , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems >>> *, *Mainly Black >>> , *Obras P?blicas >>> ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets >>> ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones >>> ; **Tango Bouquet >>> ; **Theory of Harmony >>> ; **Rapsodie espagnole >>> ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway >>> ; **The Sonnet Project >>> ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter >>> Journey ; **Eclipse >>> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan >>> ;* >>> *Transparencies & Projections >>> * >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 5:23 PM, John Jeffrey >>> > wrote: >>> >>> Good to know., because I have some questions on how much it's going to >>> cost to clear out all the fallen and broken trees from my property. >>> (Snowstorm in CT.) >>> >>> Please discuss.. >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* Halvard Johnson >>> > >>> *To:* NewPoetry List >>> > >>> *Sent:* Monday, October 31, 2011 6:23 PM >>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>> >>> This is an open list. >>> >>> >>> Serving the tri-state area. >>> >>> Hal >>> >>> Halvard Johnson >>> ================ >>> >>> halvard at gmail.com >>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ >>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ >>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ >>> >>> http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >>> >>> Remains To Be Seen >>> *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) >>> ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) >>> , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems >>> *, *Mainly Black >>> , *Obras P?blicas >>> ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets >>> ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones >>> ; **Tango Bouquet >>> ; **Theory of Harmony >>> ; **Rapsodie espagnole >>> ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway >>> ; **The Sonnet Project >>> ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter >>> Journey ; **Eclipse >>> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan >>> ;* >>> *Transparencies & Projections >>> * >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 4:13 PM, John Jeffrey >>> > wrote: >>> >>> Counting me, I guess you'd have TWO resident right wing nitwits. I'm >>> grinding my teeth reading these exchanges. (And Sam, this don't eat the >>> hamburger conversation did not "ensue" from his essay; he mentioned >>> extinction in his first email and stop eating animals in his second.) >>> >>> Still, I don' t think this conversation has a place on this list. What >>> next? God? Guns? Abortion? >>> >>> JohnJ >>> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* "almaginnes at aol.com " < >>> almaginnes at aol.com > >>> *To:* NewPoetry List >>> > >>> *Sent:* Monday, October 31, 2011 7:57 AM >>> >>> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>> >>> Nice too know we have our own resident right wing nitwit. Every listserv >>> needs one. OK, off to the Weatherman meeting. >>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: R Dillon >>> > >>> Sender: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 06:52:20 >>> To: >>> > >>> Reply-To: NewPoetry List >>> > >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> **** >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > **** > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Tue Nov 1 13:41:05 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 13:41:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <24972848.1320084128407.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <24972848.1320084128407.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <44E9C5B4-10BE-4965-B351-A7C4C2F5B0F2@mikesnider.org> Gave put the crux of it quite plainly: Sent from my iPhone On Oct 31, 2011, at 2:02 PM, junction at earthlink.net wrote: > but it does not address the immorality of killing another creature merely because we like the taste What arguments address the moral question of the production, sale, and consumption of addictive drugs such as alcohol and cocaine, which cause much unnecessary suffering and death in humans? What arguments address the moral questions raised by prostitution? If we allow religion in, what arguments address the moral questions raised by homosexuality or polygamy or promiscuity? What arguments address the moral questions raised by efforts to control behavior considered immoral by majorities at time or another? Many people get along fine with no desire nor necessity for meat in their diet, though significant portion of them require at least occasional dietary supplements. No one requires alcohol, and we even voted once to ban its use and sale - the result was to seriously threaten civil society by making the nastiest of us very rich and powerful. The same happened with other drugs. What do you think would happen if consumption of meat were to seriously restricted -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Tue Nov 1 13:19:21 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 13:19:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Issue #23 of Otoliths is now live In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <73EB4A8B-492E-431C-986E-4369B10D86EB@mikesnider.org> Congratulations! to you & Annie, and good work! Sent from my iPhone On Oct 31, 2011, at 12:03 PM, James Cervantes wrote: > Like Buster Brown, "I'm in there too!" > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Otoliths Editor > Date: Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 7:02 AM > Subject: Issue #23 of Otoliths is now live > To: > > > Okay, maybe it's living vicariously, but I can think of no better way to enter my eighth decade than by bringing out a new issue of Otoliths.http://the-otolith.blogspot.com/ > > > > As always, the southern spring, 2011 issue is chock full o' nutrition, with work across a number of media from Paul Siegell, Anny Ballardini, Ed Baker, Michael Farrell, Corey Mesler, Zev Jonas, Howie Good, Joseph Veronneau, Ana Viviane Minorelli, Kyle Hemmings, Peter Ganick, Geof Huth, Heller Levinson, Scott Keeney, Jim Meirose, Keith Higginbotham, Yonah Korngold, Dylan Fettig, Philip Byron Oakes, Sue Fitchett, Sheila E. Murphy & John M. Bennett, John M. Bennett, John M. Bennett & Thomas M. Cassidy, Michael Andrew, Steven Alvarez, Changming Yuan, Raymond Farr, Melissa Eleftherion, Caleb Puckett, Julian Jason Haladyn, Jen Besemer, Dale Wisely, Tyler Cain Lacy, Eleanor Leonne Bennett, Awa Loizeaux Zag, SJ Fowler, Jill Chan, James Cervantes, Adam Fieled, M?rton Kopp?ny, Jim Leftwich & M?rton Kopp?ny, Lakey Comess, David Herd, J. D. Nelson, Felino A. Soriano, Jeff Harrison, Adam Trawick, Bobbi Lurie, Tim Wright, George McKim, Scott Metz, Sheila E. Murphy, Vernon Frazer, Dysphasia Press, Grzegorz Wr?blewski, Jo Langdon, John Pursch, Megan Anderson, Eryk Wenziak, Katrinka Moore, Charles Freeland, Steve Johnson & Cecelia Chapman, Scott Bentley, sean burn, Bob Heman, Michael Brandonisio, Zoe Dzunko, Paul Pfleuger Jr., Bill Drennan, Javant Biarujia, & Bill DiMichele. > > > > Enjoy. > > Mark > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 14:28:24 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 19:28:24 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Issue #23 of Otoliths is now live In-Reply-To: <73EB4A8B-492E-431C-986E-4369B10D86EB@mikesnider.org> References: <73EB4A8B-492E-431C-986E-4369B10D86EB@mikesnider.org> Message-ID: Thank you Michael, I hope you are fine, with care, Anny On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 6:19 PM, Michael Snider wrote: > Congratulations! to you & Annie, and good work! > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Oct 31, 2011, at 12:03 PM, James Cervantes > wrote: > > Like Buster Brown, "I'm in there too!" > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Otoliths Editor > Date: Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 7:02 AM > Subject: Issue #23 of Otoliths is now live > To: > > > Okay, maybe it's living vicariously, but I can think of no better way to > enter my eighth decade than by bringing out a new issue of Otoliths. > http://the-otolith.blogspot.com/ > > > > As always, the southern spring, 2011 issue is chock full o' nutrition, > with work across a number of media from Paul Siegell, Anny Ballardini, Ed > Baker, Michael Farrell, Corey Mesler, Zev Jonas, Howie Good, Joseph > Veronneau, Ana Viviane Minorelli, Kyle Hemmings, Peter Ganick, Geof Huth, > Heller Levinson, Scott Keeney, Jim Meirose, Keith Higginbotham, Yonah > Korngold, Dylan Fettig, Philip Byron Oakes, Sue Fitchett, Sheila E. Murphy > & John M. Bennett, John M. Bennett, John M. Bennett & Thomas M. Cassidy, > Michael Andrew, Steven Alvarez, Changming Yuan, Raymond Farr, Melissa > Eleftherion, Caleb Puckett, Julian Jason Haladyn, Jen Besemer, Dale Wisely, > Tyler Cain Lacy, Eleanor Leonne Bennett, Awa Loizeaux Zag, SJ Fowler, Jill > Chan, James Cervantes, Adam Fieled, M?rton Kopp?ny, Jim Leftwich & M?rton > Kopp?ny, Lakey Comess, David Herd, J. D. Nelson, Felino A. Soriano, Jeff > Harrison, Adam Trawick, Bobbi Lurie, Tim Wright, George McKim, Scott > Metz, Sheila E. Murphy, Vernon Frazer, Dysphasia Press, Grzegorz > Wr?blewski, Jo Langdon, John Pursch, Megan Anderson, Eryk Wenziak, Katrinka > Moore, Charles Freeland, Steve Johnson & Cecelia Chapman, Scott Bentley, > sean burn, Bob Heman, Michael Brandonisio, Zoe Dzunko, Paul Pfleuger Jr., > Bill Drennan, Javant Biarujia, & Bill DiMichele. > > > Enjoy. > > Mark > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Tue Nov 1 14:24:27 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 14:24:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <95bb.2343f7f3.3be00270@cs.com> Message-ID: >> but it does not address the immorality of killing another creature merely because we like the taste. That's the crux, of course. Now tell me what arguments might address the immorality of the production, sale, and use of addictive drugs such as alcohol, heroin, and cocaine? Even without religious arguments, a powerful (to me unconvincing) argument can be made for the immorality of abortion. If we allow religious arguments - and most people do (not me) - what about promiscuity and/or homosexuality? What arguments address the immorality of the laws and customs which once, and in many places still do, prohibit some or all of the above behaviors? We've made some evil people very rich. There are a lot of human beings. Some small proportion in the very wealthiest of societies choose, for personal moral reasons, not to eat meat. There have been religious movements which prohibit the consumption of meat. Some people can live very happily without meat, though a not insignificant portion of them must supplement their diets, and, as I believe Amy King wrote, the use of soy products as a major protein source may have significant consequences for women because of the estrogen-like compounds in soy. But most people like meat, and are willing to pay a premium for it -- and that is simply not going to change. I have no problem with making that premium significantly larger, especially if it's the result of regulations requiring more humane methods on farms, while shipping, and in slaughterhouses. The result would probably be less production and consumption of meat, and, all in all, that's most likely a good thing. But we should know by now what happens with outright bans on things some portion of the population strongly desires. And finally, the population of this list being largely educated apartment dwellers, what about our beloved cats, which are obligate carnivores? What would we feed them? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Tue Nov 1 14:36:12 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 14:36:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Issue #23 of Otoliths is now live In-Reply-To: References: <73EB4A8B-492E-431C-986E-4369B10D86EB@mikesnider.org> Message-ID: And one day I'll learn to spell your name! Sent from my iPhone On Nov 1, 2011, at 2:28 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Thank you Michael, I hope you are fine, with care, Anny > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 6:19 PM, Michael Snider wrote: > Congratulations! to you & Annie, and good work! > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Oct 31, 2011, at 12:03 PM, James Cervantes wrote: > >> Like Buster Brown, "I'm in there too!" >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Otoliths Editor >> Date: Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 7:02 AM >> Subject: Issue #23 of Otoliths is now live >> To: >> >> >> Okay, maybe it's living vicariously, but I can think of no better way to enter my eighth decade than by bringing out a new issue of Otoliths.http://the-otolith.blogspot.com/ >> >> >> >> As always, the southern spring, 2011 issue is chock full o' nutrition, with work across a number of media from Paul Siegell, Anny Ballardini, Ed Baker, Michael Farrell, Corey Mesler, Zev Jonas, Howie Good, Joseph Veronneau, Ana Viviane Minorelli, Kyle Hemmings, Peter Ganick, Geof Huth, Heller Levinson, Scott Keeney, Jim Meirose, Keith Higginbotham, Yonah Korngold, Dylan Fettig, Philip Byron Oakes, Sue Fitchett, Sheila E. Murphy & John M. Bennett, John M. Bennett, John M. Bennett & Thomas M. Cassidy, Michael Andrew, Steven Alvarez, Changming Yuan, Raymond Farr, Melissa Eleftherion, Caleb Puckett, Julian Jason Haladyn, Jen Besemer, Dale Wisely, Tyler Cain Lacy, Eleanor Leonne Bennett, Awa Loizeaux Zag, SJ Fowler, Jill Chan, James Cervantes, Adam Fieled, M?rton Kopp?ny, Jim Leftwich & M?rton Kopp?ny, Lakey Comess, David Herd, J. D. Nelson, Felino A. Soriano, Jeff Harrison, Adam Trawick, Bobbi Lurie, Tim Wright, George McKim, Scott Metz, Sheila E. Murphy, Vernon Frazer, Dysphasia Press, Grzegorz Wr?blewski, Jo Langdon, John Pursch, Megan Anderson, Eryk Wenziak, Katrinka Moore, Charles Freeland, Steve Johnson & Cecelia Chapman, Scott Bentley, sean burn, Bob Heman, Michael Brandonisio, Zoe Dzunko, Paul Pfleuger Jr., Bill Drennan, Javant Biarujia, & Bill DiMichele. >> >> >> >> Enjoy. >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 14:41:05 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 19:41:05 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Issue #23 of Otoliths is now live In-Reply-To: References: <73EB4A8B-492E-431C-986E-4369B10D86EB@mikesnider.org> Message-ID: That will be a grand day! :-) On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 7:36 PM, Michael Snider wrote: > And one day I'll learn to spell your name! > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Nov 1, 2011, at 2:28 PM, Anny Ballardini > wrote: > > Thank you Michael, I hope you are fine, with care, Anny > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 6:19 PM, Michael Snider wrote: > >> Congratulations! to you & Annie, and good work! >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Oct 31, 2011, at 12:03 PM, James Cervantes >> wrote: >> >> Like Buster Brown, "I'm in there too!" >> >> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >> From: Otoliths Editor >> Date: Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 7:02 AM >> Subject: Issue #23 of Otoliths is now live >> To: >> >> >> Okay, maybe it's living vicariously, but I can think of no better way to >> enter my eighth decade than by bringing out a new issue of Otoliths. >> http://the-otolith.blogspot.com/ >> >> >> >> As always, the southern spring, 2011 issue is chock full o' nutrition, >> with work across a number of media from Paul Siegell, Anny Ballardini, Ed >> Baker, Michael Farrell, Corey Mesler, Zev Jonas, Howie Good, Joseph >> Veronneau, Ana Viviane Minorelli, Kyle Hemmings, Peter Ganick, Geof Huth, >> Heller Levinson, Scott Keeney, Jim Meirose, Keith Higginbotham, Yonah >> Korngold, Dylan Fettig, Philip Byron Oakes, Sue Fitchett, Sheila E. Murphy >> & John M. Bennett, John M. Bennett, John M. Bennett & Thomas M. Cassidy, >> Michael Andrew, Steven Alvarez, Changming Yuan, Raymond Farr, Melissa >> Eleftherion, Caleb Puckett, Julian Jason Haladyn, Jen Besemer, Dale Wisely, >> Tyler Cain Lacy, Eleanor Leonne Bennett, Awa Loizeaux Zag, SJ Fowler, Jill >> Chan, James Cervantes, Adam Fieled, M?rton Kopp?ny, Jim Leftwich & M?rton >> Kopp?ny, Lakey Comess, David Herd, J. D. Nelson, Felino A. Soriano, Jeff >> Harrison, Adam Trawick, Bobbi Lurie, Tim Wright, George McKim, Scott >> Metz, Sheila E. Murphy, Vernon Frazer, Dysphasia Press, Grzegorz >> Wr?blewski, Jo Langdon, John Pursch, Megan Anderson, Eryk Wenziak, Katrinka >> Moore, Charles Freeland, Steve Johnson & Cecelia Chapman, Scott Bentley, >> sean burn, Bob Heman, Michael Brandonisio, Zoe Dzunko, Paul Pfleuger Jr., >> Bill Drennan, Javant Biarujia, & Bill DiMichele. >> >> >> Enjoy. >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Tue Nov 1 14:39:13 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 11:39:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] What next? God? Guns? Abortion? Message-ID: <1320172753.18258.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Thank you, John Jeffrey -- maybe ... dunno, a cold war thing -- ?nothing big, but fun. ? ? God Guns & Abortion ? ? I have a large gun. It's even larger than God. Should I abort it? ? ??????????? * Is this another?Bay of Pigs? I'm John Kennedy. Thankfully, I'm dead. ? ? ? ? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 14:42:36 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 19:42:36 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Issue #23 of Otoliths is now live In-Reply-To: References: <73EB4A8B-492E-431C-986E-4369B10D86EB@mikesnider.org> Message-ID: Sorry, I logically thought I was sending private messages to Michael. On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 7:41 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > That will be a grand day! :-) > > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 7:36 PM, Michael Snider wrote: > >> And one day I'll learn to spell your name! >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Nov 1, 2011, at 2:28 PM, Anny Ballardini >> wrote: >> >> Thank you Michael, I hope you are fine, with care, Anny >> >> On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 6:19 PM, Michael Snider wrote: >> >>> Congratulations! to you & Annie, and good work! >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Oct 31, 2011, at 12:03 PM, James Cervantes >>> wrote: >>> >>> Like Buster Brown, "I'm in there too!" >>> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ---------- >>> From: Otoliths Editor >>> Date: Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 7:02 AM >>> Subject: Issue #23 of Otoliths is now live >>> To: >>> >>> >>> Okay, maybe it's living vicariously, but I can think of no better way to >>> enter my eighth decade than by bringing out a new issue of Otoliths. >>> http://the-otolith.blogspot.com/ >>> >>> >>> >>> As always, the southern spring, 2011 issue is chock full o' nutrition, >>> with work across a number of media from Paul Siegell, Anny Ballardini, Ed >>> Baker, Michael Farrell, Corey Mesler, Zev Jonas, Howie Good, Joseph >>> Veronneau, Ana Viviane Minorelli, Kyle Hemmings, Peter Ganick, Geof Huth, >>> Heller Levinson, Scott Keeney, Jim Meirose, Keith Higginbotham, Yonah >>> Korngold, Dylan Fettig, Philip Byron Oakes, Sue Fitchett, Sheila E. Murphy >>> & John M. Bennett, John M. Bennett, John M. Bennett & Thomas M. Cassidy, >>> Michael Andrew, Steven Alvarez, Changming Yuan, Raymond Farr, Melissa >>> Eleftherion, Caleb Puckett, Julian Jason Haladyn, Jen Besemer, Dale Wisely, >>> Tyler Cain Lacy, Eleanor Leonne Bennett, Awa Loizeaux Zag, SJ Fowler, Jill >>> Chan, James Cervantes, Adam Fieled, M?rton Kopp?ny, Jim Leftwich & M?rton >>> Kopp?ny, Lakey Comess, David Herd, J. D. Nelson, Felino A. Soriano, >>> Jeff Harrison, Adam Trawick, Bobbi Lurie, Tim Wright, George McKim, >>> Scott Metz, Sheila E. Murphy, Vernon Frazer, Dysphasia Press, Grzegorz >>> Wr?blewski, Jo Langdon, John Pursch, Megan Anderson, Eryk Wenziak, Katrinka >>> Moore, Charles Freeland, Steve Johnson & Cecelia Chapman, Scott Bentley, >>> sean burn, Bob Heman, Michael Brandonisio, Zoe Dzunko, Paul Pfleuger Jr., >>> Bill Drennan, Javant Biarujia, & Bill DiMichele. >>> >>> >>> Enjoy. >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Anny Ballardini >> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >> star! >> Friedrich Nietzsche >> >> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >> Giovenale >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Nov 1 15:06:13 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 15:06:13 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <23398863.1320174373559.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 15:35:36 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 13:35:36 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <23398863.1320174373559.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <23398863.1320174373559.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: But if we took morality off the table where would it go--on the floor? Where people might step on it, wound it, maybe even kill it? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 1:06 PM, wrote: > This is an at times contentious list, and that's ok--we tend to forgive > each other and go on. But it's never concerned itself with religious or > moral questions before, and while we occasionally question each other's > sanity as far as I can remember we've never judged each other's moral > decisions. If we were to do so I think it likely that the list would very > quickly be pared down to a small community of folks happy to spend their > time nodding in self-righteous agreement. That would be a shame--it's been > one of the few places where I, for one, converse regularly with folks who > come from very different poetic backgrounds. > > Since this discussion is unlikely to save a single cow I'll go further and > question the motives of those doing the moralizing. I suspect it's really > about basking in the moral glow of one's righteousness. > > As for feeding house cats, how about feeding them feral cats? The latter > are among the greatest environmental hazards that we as a species are > responsible for. > > Oh my god another moral conundrum. Pigs, goats, rats, cats--a scourge to > every environment in which they've gone feral, including the ones most of > us live in. In many places they are hunted, sometimes to extermination. The > alternative is the extinction of all endemic species and the ecosystems of > which they're a part. Looking down from their cloud do the righteous see a > course of action? Do let us know. > > Or maybe take morality off the table. > > Best, > > Mark > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Snider ** > Sent: Nov 1, 2011 2:24 PM > To: NewPoetry List ** > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > ******** > > but it does not address the immorality of killing another creature merely > because we like the taste. > > > > That's the crux, of course. > > Now tell me what arguments might address the immorality of the production, > sale, and use of addictive drugs such as alcohol, heroin, and cocaine? > > Even without religious arguments, a powerful (to me unconvincing) argument > can be made for the immorality of abortion. > > If we allow religious arguments - and most people do (not me) - what about > promiscuity and/or homosexuality? > > What arguments address the immorality of the laws and customs which once, > and in many places still do, prohibit some or all of the above behaviors? > We've made some evil people very rich. > > There are a lot of human beings. Some small proportion in the very > wealthiest of societies choose, for personal moral reasons, not to eat > meat. There have been religious movements which prohibit the consumption of > meat. Some people can live very happily without meat, though a not > insignificant portion of them must supplement their diets, and, as I > believe Amy King wrote, the use of soy products as a major protein source > may have significant consequences for women because of the estrogen-like > compounds in soy. > > But most people like meat, and are willing to pay a premium for it -- and > that is simply not going to change. I have no problem with making that > premium significantly larger, especially if it's the result of regulations > requiring more humane methods on farms, while shipping, and in > slaughterhouses. The result would probably be less production and > consumption of meat, and, all in all, that's most likely a good thing. > > But we should know by now what happens with outright bans on things some > portion of the population strongly desires. > > And finally, the population of this list being largely educated apartment > dwellers, what about our beloved cats, which are obligate carnivores? What > would we feed them? > ******** > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Tue Nov 1 15:27:07 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 15:27:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <23398863.1320174373559.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <23398863.1320174373559.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <2497434D-05F6-4239-9FA9-A490AAE173A3@mikesnider.org> www.mikesnider.org On Nov 1, 2011, at 15:06, junction at earthlink.net wrote: > Or maybe take morality off the table. Which is exactly what I would like see, Mark. Off the table and off the list. From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Tue Nov 1 15:41:34 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 12:41:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1320176494.47958.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> That's fucking sharp. Seriously, I'm impressed. --- On Tue, 11/1/11, Halvard Johnson wrote: From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Tuesday, November 1, 2011, 3:35 PM But if we took morality off the table where would it go--on the floor? Where people might step on it, wound it, maybe even kill it? ?? ? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 1:06 PM, wrote: This is an at times contentious list, and that's ok--we tend to forgive each other and go on. But it's never concerned itself with religious or moral questions before, and while we occasionally question each other's sanity as far as I can remember we've never judged each other's moral decisions. If we were to do so I think it likely that the list would very quickly be pared down to a small community of folks happy to spend their time nodding in self-righteous agreement. That would be a shame--it's been one of the few places where I, for one, converse regularly with folks who come from very different poetic backgrounds. Since this discussion is unlikely to save a single cow I'll go further and question the motives of those doing the moralizing. I suspect it's really about basking in the moral glow of one's righteousness. As for feeding house cats, how about feeding them feral cats? The latter are among the greatest environmental hazards that we as a species are responsible for. Oh my god another moral conundrum. Pigs, goats, rats, cats--a scourge to every environment in which they've gone feral, including the ones most of us live in. In many places they are hunted, sometimes to extermination. The alternative is the extinction of all endemic species and the ecosystems of which they're a part. Looking down from their cloud do the righteous see a course of action? Do let us know. Or maybe take morality off the table. Best, Mark -----Original Message----- From: Michael Snider Sent: Nov 1, 2011 2:24 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption but it does not address the immorality of killing another creature merely because we like the taste. That's the crux, of course. Now tell me what arguments might address the immorality of the production, sale, and use of addictive drugs such as alcohol, heroin, and cocaine? Even without religious arguments, a powerful (to me unconvincing) argument can be made for the immorality of abortion. If we allow religious arguments - and most people do (not me) - what about promiscuity and/or homosexuality? What arguments address the immorality of the laws and customs which once, and in many places still do, prohibit some or all of the above behaviors? We've made some evil people very rich. There are a lot of human beings. Some small proportion in the very wealthiest of societies choose, for personal moral reasons, not to eat meat. There have been religious movements which prohibit the consumption of meat. Some people can live very happily without meat, though a not insignificant portion of them must supplement their diets, and, as I believe Amy King wrote, the use of soy products as a major protein source may have significant consequences for women because of the estrogen-like compounds in soy. But most people like meat, and are willing to pay a premium for it -- and that is simply not going to change. I have no problem with making that premium significantly larger, especially if it's the result of regulations requiring more humane methods on farms, while shipping, and in slaughterhouses. The result would probably be less production and consumption of meat, and, all in all, that's most likely a good thing. But we should know by now what happens with outright bans on things some portion of the population strongly desires. And finally, the population of this list being largely educated apartment dwellers, what about our beloved cats, which are obligate carnivores? What would we feed them? _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 15:40:18 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 13:40:18 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <2497434D-05F6-4239-9FA9-A490AAE173A3@mikesnider.org> References: <23398863.1320174373559.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <2497434D-05F6-4239-9FA9-A490AAE173A3@mikesnider.org> Message-ID: Let's just take the m off. Then we could chat about orality. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 1:27 PM, Michael Snider wrote: > > > www.mikesnider.org > > On Nov 1, 2011, at 15:06, junction at earthlink.net wrote: > > > Or maybe take morality off the table. > > > Which is exactly what I would like see, Mark. Off the table and off the > list. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Tue Nov 1 15:51:11 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 15:51:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <23398863.1320174373559.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <23398863.1320174373559.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <7901070B-F61A-444C-80DE-BBF93012B023@mikesnider.org> I probably wasn't clear - It was Gabe who used the phrase "the immorality of killing another creature merely because we like the taste" and I was trying to point out how many other disastrous attempts had been made to declare somebody else's behavior immoral because of personal taste or some religious teaching, or even demonstrably bad outcomes. Human nature doesn't change through law or preaching. From junction at earthlink.net Tue Nov 1 15:55:42 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 15:55:42 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <3451934.1320177342738.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Nov 1 15:56:25 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 15:56:25 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <6251177.1320177385408.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Yup. I wasn't replying to you directly. -----Original Message----- >From: Michael Snider >Sent: Nov 1, 2011 3:51 PM >To: NewPoetry List >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > >I probably wasn't clear - It was Gabe who used the phrase "the immorality of killing another creature merely because we like the taste" and I was trying to point out how many other disastrous attempts had been made to declare somebody else's behavior immoral because of personal taste or some religious teaching, or even demonstrably bad outcomes. Human nature doesn't change through law or preaching. > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Tue Nov 1 15:56:57 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 15:56:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sorry for the (partial) double post Message-ID: <58FAC495-522B-428E-8A79-535B12ED30B2@mikesnider.org> I started on one device and decided I needed a better keyboard - not sure howw the early draft got posted.Once again, my apology. www.mikesnider.org From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Tue Nov 1 16:01:26 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 16:01:26 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <23398863.1320174373559.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <2497434D-05F6-4239-9FA9-A490AAE173A3@mikesnider.org> Message-ID: <12386E3C-0755-44DA-97F7-281E17245659@mikesnider.org> Sent from my iPhone On Nov 1, 2011, at 3:40 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Let's just take the m off. Then we could chat about orality. Appropriate for most poets! I've got callouses on both thumbs... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Nov 1 15:54:30 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 15:54:30 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <7009399.1320177270658.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Nov 1 16:15:48 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 16:15:48 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] corrective info re: empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <31930824.1320178548626.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Nov 1 16:11:11 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 16:11:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <24caa.79c29fb1.3be1ac5f@cs.com> In a message dated 11/1/2011 4:37:52 AM Central Daylight Time, gabrielgudding at gmail.com writes: > > It's okay, Sam. I do that sometimes too. > > Thank you, Hal. > > > Re sonnets: never liked writing that stuff. Though I see that Sam and I > both revised "Pied Beauty": his in praise of fried animals. Mine a footnote > in my 430 page book published by Dalkey. Sam's called "Fried Beauty," mine > "Gerard Manley Horses." There's a picture of Sam on the net wearing a beret > and smoking a pipe. Hmm. :) > > > > My poem is equally in praise of fried veggies, and there is no such picture of me unless one has been Photoshopped. RSG -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Nov 1 16:20:02 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 16:20:02 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] morality Message-ID: <20573307.1320178802473.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> It behooves me to think about cattle. From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 16:26:21 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 15:26:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] morality In-Reply-To: <20573307.1320178802473.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <20573307.1320178802473.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: surely you meant moo-rality On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 3:20 PM, wrote: > It behooves me to think about cattle. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 16:27:31 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 14:27:31 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] morality In-Reply-To: References: <20573307.1320178802473.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: I've got a steak in that. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 2:26 PM, gabriel gudding wrote: > surely you meant moo-rality > > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 3:20 PM, wrote: > >> It behooves me to think about cattle. >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 16:28:46 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 15:28:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <24caa.79c29fb1.3be1ac5f@cs.com> References: <24caa.79c29fb1.3be1ac5f@cs.com> Message-ID: Is there seriously a suggestion [on the table or the floor :)] that poetry has not to do with issues of ethics and morality? News to me. Someone never told that to countless people living and dead. ... Sam, I was thinking of these lines: "Glory be to God for breaded things? Catfish, steak finger, pork chop, chicken thigh," But I can certainly get behind the okra and onions and french fries. Made me hungry reading it. :) Sorry about the mix-up with the beret. Thought it looked like your other photos. On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 3:11 PM, wrote: > In a message dated 11/1/2011 4:37:52 AM Central Daylight Time, > gabrielgudding at gmail.com writes: > > > It's okay, Sam. I do that sometimes too. > > Thank you, Hal. > > > Re sonnets: never liked writing that stuff. Though I see that Sam and I > both revised "Pied Beauty": his in praise of fried animals. Mine a footnote > in my 430 page book published by Dalkey. Sam's called "Fried Beauty," mine > "Gerard Manley Horses." There's a picture of Sam on the net wearing a beret > and smoking a pipe. Hmm. :) > > > > > My poem is equally in praise of fried veggies, and there is no such > picture of me unless one has been Photoshopped. > > RSG > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Nov 1 16:31:31 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 16:31:31 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] morality Message-ID: <7894600.1320179491929.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Nov 1 16:28:21 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 16:28:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <2594c.9a2c3b0.3be1b065@cs.com> Morality and ethics are both solely human concerns, and they have nothing whatsoever to do with the animal or vegetable kingdom per se. I can assign no more consciousness to an oyster than I can to a Brussels sprout. Those who base vegetarianisn on morality are confusing morality with emotions ("screaming" calves, for example). On the other hand, farming, a strictly human activity (unless we include social insects), has indeed all kind of moral/ethical issues involved. Large-scale industrial farming of vegetables may help some but hurt others (lower consumer prices vs. running small farmers out of business). When you factor in large-scale industrial farming of animals, the you also add the added problem of its effects on the environment, which can be a moral/ethical, economic, and political problem. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 16:34:21 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 14:34:21 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24caa.79c29fb1.3be1ac5f@cs.com> Message-ID: If that suggestion hasn't been made, I'll do so now. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 2:28 PM, gabriel gudding wrote: > Is there seriously a suggestion [on the table or the floor :)] that poetry > has not to do with issues of ethics and morality? > > News to me. Someone never told that to countless people living and dead. > ... > Sam, I was thinking of these lines: > "Glory be to God for breaded things? > Catfish, steak finger, pork chop, chicken thigh," > But I can certainly get behind the okra and onions and french fries. Made > me hungry reading it. :) > > Sorry about the mix-up with the beret. Thought it looked like your other > photos. > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 3:11 PM, wrote: > >> In a message dated 11/1/2011 4:37:52 AM Central Daylight Time, >> gabrielgudding at gmail.com writes: >> >> >> It's okay, Sam. I do that sometimes too. >> >> Thank you, Hal. >> >> >> Re sonnets: never liked writing that stuff. Though I see that Sam and I >> both revised "Pied Beauty": his in praise of fried animals. Mine a footnote >> in my 430 page book published by Dalkey. Sam's called "Fried Beauty," mine >> "Gerard Manley Horses." There's a picture of Sam on the net wearing a beret >> and smoking a pipe. Hmm. :) >> >> >> >> >> My poem is equally in praise of fried veggies, and there is no such >> picture of me unless one has been Photoshopped. >> >> RSG >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 16:35:30 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 14:35:30 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24caa.79c29fb1.3be1ac5f@cs.com> Message-ID: Well, I'll say it need not have. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 2:34 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > If that suggestion hasn't been made, I'll do so now. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 2:28 PM, gabriel gudding wrote: > >> Is there seriously a suggestion [on the table or the floor :)] that >> poetry has not to do with issues of ethics and morality? >> >> News to me. Someone never told that to countless people living and dead. >> ... >> Sam, I was thinking of these lines: >> "Glory be to God for breaded things? >> Catfish, steak finger, pork chop, chicken thigh," >> But I can certainly get behind the okra and onions and french fries. Made >> me hungry reading it. :) >> >> Sorry about the mix-up with the beret. Thought it looked like your other >> photos. >> >> On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 3:11 PM, wrote: >> >>> In a message dated 11/1/2011 4:37:52 AM Central Daylight Time, >>> gabrielgudding at gmail.com writes: >>> >>> >>> It's okay, Sam. I do that sometimes too. >>> >>> Thank you, Hal. >>> >>> >>> Re sonnets: never liked writing that stuff. Though I see that Sam and I >>> both revised "Pied Beauty": his in praise of fried animals. Mine a footnote >>> in my 430 page book published by Dalkey. Sam's called "Fried Beauty," mine >>> "Gerard Manley Horses." There's a picture of Sam on the net wearing a beret >>> and smoking a pipe. Hmm. :) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> My poem is equally in praise of fried veggies, and there is no such >>> picture of me unless one has been Photoshopped. >>> >>> RSG >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 16:36:30 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 14:36:30 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] morality In-Reply-To: <7894600.1320179491929.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <7894600.1320179491929.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: You started it with your behooving, amigo. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 2:31 PM, wrote: > Are you suggesting a pun? I thought they weren't permitted in the perfect > world. > > A stricture: It's an environmental crime to let your cat out. Unless there > are a lot of coyotes around. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: gabriel gudding ** > Sent: Nov 1, 2011 4:26 PM > To: NewPoetry List ** > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] morality > > surely you meant moo-rality > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 3:20 PM, wrote: > >> It behooves me to think about cattle. >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > **** > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Nov 1 16:41:07 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 16:41:07 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] morality Message-ID: <21833723.1320180067600.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Nov 1 16:37:16 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 16:37:16 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <7220083.1320179836658.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Nov 1 16:38:59 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 16:38:59 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <5253451.1320179939844.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 16:45:46 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 14:45:46 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <7220083.1320179836658.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <7220083.1320179836658.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Let's call it the Gabe Fest. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 2:37 PM, wrote: > There's a serious suggestion that sanctimoniousness gets tiresome. But see > how quickly this has become the Gabe List. > > Sure, we all have our moral persuasions, and they of course appear in the > poetry, but hopefully no more than their opposite. We contain multitudes. > It's the programmed and propagandistic part that irks. > > If you want to appeal to history you might turn on the nuance tap. Poetry > served a very different societal purpose when Dante set up his grid, Milton > attempted to justify the ways of god to man, and almost every poet rooted > for the murder of other people. > > -----Original Message----- > From: gabriel gudding ** > Sent: Nov 1, 2011 4:28 PM > To: NewPoetry List ** > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > Is there seriously a suggestion [on the table or the floor :)] that poetry > has not to do with issues of ethics and morality? > > News to me. Someone never told that to countless people living and dead. > ... > Sam, I was thinking of these lines: > "Glory be to God for breaded things? > Catfish, steak finger, pork chop, chicken thigh," > But I can certainly get behind the okra and onions and french fries. Made > me hungry reading it. :) > > Sorry about the mix-up with the beret. Thought it looked like your other > photos. > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 3:11 PM, wrote: > >> In a message dated 11/1/2011 4:37:52 AM Central Daylight Time, >> gabrielgudding at gmail.com writes: >> >> >> It's okay, Sam. I do that sometimes too. >> >> Thank you, Hal. >> >> >> Re sonnets: never liked writing that stuff. Though I see that Sam and I >> both revised "Pied Beauty": his in praise of fried animals. Mine a footnote >> in my 430 page book published by Dalkey. Sam's called "Fried Beauty," mine >> "Gerard Manley Horses." There's a picture of Sam on the net wearing a beret >> and smoking a pipe. Hmm. :) >> >> >> >> >> My poem is equally in praise of fried veggies, and there is no such >> picture of me unless one has been Photoshopped. >> >> RSG >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > **** > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Nov 1 16:46:52 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 16:46:52 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] morality Message-ID: <15218327.1320180413353.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Nov 1 16:43:14 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 16:43:14 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] morality Message-ID: <31975507.1320180194652.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Nov 1 16:49:30 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 16:49:30 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] morality Message-ID: <15732543.1320180570349.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Tue Nov 1 17:04:14 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 14:04:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24caa.79c29fb1.3be1ac5f@cs.com> Message-ID: <1320181454.77830.YahooMailNeo@web120529.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> House On Fire. Baby Still Inside. Fireman runs in and he's fearless, his heart a widening circle of empathy. This guy cares! ?More than any of us with our tiny loops of love. Minutes later, he appears again, bent and rising against the flames, cradling gently in his arms a house mouse and some sort of beetle. He's not yet sure of the species. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Tue Nov 1 17:27:05 2011 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 16:27:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11/1/11 12:34 PM, "gabriel gudding" wrote: > And again, the poems I'm interested in are not to do w/ meat eating, but w/ > ways of expanding/dissolving the bounds of the human and the animal, pushing > the circle of empathy out wider. Lot of poems just use animals to meditate on > the human (the famous dead-animal trope poem used to meditate on human death, > eg). -- ----------------------- I?ve not been closely following this apparently endless thread, but popping in from time to time to see if any poems are being discussed. (None were in response to posting of the Transtromer article, for instance.) Hope you?ll forgive any repetitions or stupidities on my part, then. Would be very interested in seeing examples of differing approaches to the topic of human/animal relations, in any case. Obviously there is a vast body of non-Western and Native American literature that bears on such themes, but I gather than Gabe is looking for something else. . . . ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Nov 1 17:40:59 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 17:40:59 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <33261255.1320183660505.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From millb at aol.com Tue Nov 1 17:42:05 2011 From: millb at aol.com (Millicent Borges Accardi) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 17:42:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] OT: Offsite AWP Message-ID: <8CE66F63BB33D24-1DF8-6A685@Webmail-m108.sysops.aol.com> Hi It is a little early but after so much blood, sweat and tears, I am excited to announce a Luso-American off-site reading at next year's AWP. http://www.awpwriter.org/conference/2012offsite.php#.TrBg-vSa9GU Kale Soup for the Soul will feature nationally-known Luso-American writers reading poetry and stories about food, home, and Portuguese culture. The event is free and open to the public there WILL be wine. So, keep this in mind if you are heading to Chicago for AWP in 2012. Significantly, this also marks the FIRST Portuguese writers event at, on or near the conference. Cheers, Millicent -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Tue Nov 1 19:01:36 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 23:01:36 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, Message-ID: I remember what what's his name (Sam Cohen maybe) one of the old moguls about how messages should be sent by Western Union (which no longer exists in anything like that once present form); morality in poetry makes me nervous--though maybe not degrees of moral empathy--but art is always a little about (it seems to me) how experience and story tend to exceed the containers we try to fit them into; what I guess Keats--whose birthday it was yesterday--meant by 'negative capability' doubts and uncertainities; it certainly seems often as if the planetary balance has tipped so in--well, I couldn't call it our favor exactly--our will perhaps?--that eco-thinking is more morally and practically urgent than it has ever been, but no doubt also to be alive is to be cruel--and morality/aesthetics of everything become invariably more complex the more you contemplate them. Or perhaps it is only that such complexity is the only thing that feels honest enough aesthetically to be worthy of artistic exploration. I am often confused about my own resistance to the animal rights stance, which I often find people articulate when they have 1) given up on people; or 2) because it is morally simpler for them than considering their moral obligations vis-a-vis people. I took a walk not long ago at the very wealth beach in Carmel, California--part of Monterey County where in the time I was visiting, all the towns made a decision not to allow children from the mostly Mexican (and poorest in the County) town of Salinas to play with their children in little league soccer, t-ball, etc. As I walked on the beach, I admired all the dogs of the people passing--mostly, I hate to say this, but it is true, rich people's dogs, and everyone I spoke to expressed to me without exception their great love and suffering over the plight of animals and wishes to variously 1) open a llama rescue ranch; leave their money to start a home for stray cats; adopt rescue grayhounds, etc., etc. I found this curious. I am a poet with a disaiblity, one severe enough--though pretty mild in my mind--that I might indeed have been--or my children might have been--a candidate for Peter Singer's "parental termination." I don't blame him for this particularly, but it certainly complicates my sense of his ethical utilitarianism or the limits of that as philosophy. I guess my own experience--my own impossibly mixed and compromised human experience--predisposes me to thinkers--Neitzche would be one--sorry for misspelling his name; I am the worst speller in the planet--who often say terrible things but who have an instinct for the form of thought that often allows them to somehow transcend the most flawed parts of their thinking. I am not sure any message of certainty can ever be anything but tragically flawed--maybe why my favorite cultural critic is Walter Benjamin who always noodles around the edges of aesthetic and moral points or seems to consider aesthetics an important form of morality. I have no doubt we should not eat meat or so much meat the shape of the planet being as it is; I have no doubt, too, in my aesthetic self that it is somehow soul-destroying to allow for the cruelty of factory chickens or cows that must take BGH and live in pens, that this is worse, more degraded than the chicken one kills by strangling it or the oxen on the plain. And yet I also have no doubt that clear proclamation or declaration of the rightness or wrongness of such things--any sort of prohibition or fixed moral position--is also a dreadful simplification--even a mark of my human privilege--and as such a kind of moral degradation (though perhaps a more minor one), too. Well, I've probably gotten on MY soapbox long enough.... I guess I'm just saying--it strikes me that empathy is a very difficult task; perhaps difficult enough for poetry. Sheila Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 12:34:05 -0500 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Well said, Sheila. I don't know the exact Singer quote you mention. I suspect, knowing his work and thought some, and knowing the controversy surrounding secondary quotes like that, as well as Singer's replies, that the context would alleviate/dissipate the apparent confusion around that statement. He is remarkably compassionate in his philosophy/responsibility to the human, & advocates we each do our best to live as simply as possible (he himself lives very simply), so that others elsewhere are not impacted by our consumption choices, and follows thru with that himself, giving a third of his salary to charities. Here's a superb lecture by him on the ethics of eating, clearly showing several of the complexities of the issue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHzwqf_JkrA This lecture seems like it cd be a good place to begin thinking about the severity of the issue and the difficulties of even perceiving the issue. The severity of this issue is intimately connected with its hard-to-perceive reality. And again, the poems I'm interested in are not to do w/ meat eating, but w/ ways of expanding/dissolving the bounds of the human and the animal, pushing the circle of empathy out wider. Lot of poems just use animals to meditate on the human (the famous dead-animal trope poem used to meditate on human death, eg). On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 10:20 PM, wrote: OK, I take it back. You're not espousing a religious position, it's a moral position. So let me see if I get it. It's ok to eat meat for reasons other than taste? Is it ok for other omnivores to eat meat if we consider them our moral equals? How about poems that don't reduce the complex to the simple? Any interest? -----Original Message----- From: gabriel gudding Sent: Oct 31, 2011 10:37 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Mark, didn't use any religious terminology except apostasy and soul as a direct reference to your religious rhetoric "faith" etc. I think it's okay to label unconscionable actions immoral. Doing so need not be religious. One can have an entirely secular and prescriptive morality, in fact. We have one called the judicial system. It's not perfect, but I'm grateful for it. Nor is it outside the mainstream of Western literature to assert that killing another animal for its taste is immoral -- and not for religious reasons. Goes back at least to Thoreau. Is a major reason Kafka wrote -- he was a bigtime veggie. Anway yes, am taken with poems that (1) help us see this, and (2) otherwise help us widen our circle of empathy, as we've been doing for several centuries now, so if you think of any more (especially living now), lemme know. On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 9:00 PM, wrote: It's the prescriptive part that bugs me, Gabe. And the preachy. I think you're joking about apostasy, but in the context you might want to lay off the religious terminology for a while. -----Original Message----- From: gabriel gudding Sent: Oct 31, 2011 9:46 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Wow, lot of kids at the door. Slapped myself in the eye with a pirate eyepatch. Maybe someone cd put together an anthology of October brush-clearing poems. Stephen, thx for the tip about Snyder. Mark, many thanks for the tips re Cuban poets. Did query Kristin earlier today and she listed several Cuban poets, a few she's translating, Reina being one, and several Latin American writers in the latest Mandorla (14), who are doing this work. Like that poem of yours, too. Well noted re your apostasy. BTW there is no such thing as souls. :) Re whether empathy's relation to poetry is a suitable topic for a poetry listserv: Have been learning past few months about the history of empathy theory and its relation to the rise of Romanticism, poetry, fiction. Was a hotly contested, thought-thru, issue. German poets and painters argued this stuff. Lot of Germans in the 19thC thought other Germans had something to learn about empathy (turns out they were right?). As a matter of fact, the question of the animal was of deep interest in this. Franz Marc writes expressly about empathy and the animal. Some theorists of empathy who influenced a number of 20thC US, British, European poets: Schopenhauer, W?rringer, Lipps, Nietzsche, Titchener. "Einf?hling" -- "feeling into" -- was a kind of big deal in German art, especially the German counter-enlightenment romanticists, and it influenced European and US writers. Some who reacted against that: TS Eliot, Pound, Marinetti. But others who took up the mantle: Mayakovsky, Breton, Hans Arp, P?ret, Mina Loy, C?saire. Kind of a fascinating history. JohnJ: easy on your teeth and be careful with that chainsaw. :) On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 7:19 PM, stephen russell wrote: I avoid their pain. They're larger than me. But they're pretty. --- On Mon, 10/31/11, Halvard Johnson wrote: From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Monday, October 31, 2011, 8:16 PM I can feel their pain. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 6:15 PM, stephen russell wrote: I wouldn't sweat it. In fact, the tree probably didn't give a fuck, though I can't prove it. --- On Mon, 10/31/11, John Jeffrey wrote: From: John Jeffrey Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Monday, October 31, 2011, 8:10 PM All the good stuff gone now: the birches, the pear tree, the Japanese maple. Two catalpas--each with trunks about 3 feet wide--fell, too, thankfully missing our house. I did use some of the wood to start fires in the fireplace, though. Is that wrong? Should I just have let the tree go free instead of putting my own greedy comfort first? Speaking of chainsaws (mine's electric and I've got no power, so it's useless), all I can think of whenever I pull out the chainsaw is Frost's brutal poem "'Out Out!'" Damn thing haunts me. From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry List Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 7:45 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption As to cost, probably an arm and a leg, if you're not careful with that rented chainsaw. As a good conservative, though, make sure they cut away only the bad stuff. The good stuff is what needs to be conserved. I'm a conservative too, see? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 5:23 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: Good to know., because I have some questions on how much it's going to cost to clear out all the fallen and broken trees from my property. (Snowstorm in CT.) Please discuss.. From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry List Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 6:23 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption This is an open list. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 4:13 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: Counting me, I guess you'd have TWO resident right wing nitwits. I'm grinding my teeth reading these exchanges. (And Sam, this don't eat the hamburger conversation did not "ensue" from his essay; he mentioned extinction in his first email and stop eating animals in his second.) Still, I don' t think this conversation has a place on this list. What next? God? Guns? Abortion? JohnJ From: "almaginnes at aol.com" To: NewPoetry List Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 7:57 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Nice too know we have our own resident right wing nitwit. Every listserv needs one. OK, off to the Weatherman meeting. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: R Dillon Sender: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 06:52:20 To: Reply-To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 19:06:02 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 16:06:02 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] morality In-Reply-To: <31975507.1320180194652.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <31975507.1320180194652.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: The original thread calved, didn't it? - Jim On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 1:43 PM, wrote: > You and I may be so fallen that we ouselves are behooved. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Halvard Johnson ** > Sent: Nov 1, 2011 4:36 PM > To: NewPoetry List ** > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] morality > > You started it with your behooving, amigo. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 2:31 PM, wrote: > >> Are you suggesting a pun? I thought they weren't permitted in the perfect >> world. >> >> A stricture: It's an environmental crime to let your cat out. Unless >> there are a lot of coyotes around. >> >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: gabriel gudding ** >> Sent: Nov 1, 2011 4:26 PM >> To: NewPoetry List ** >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] morality >> >> surely you meant moo-rality >> >> On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 3:20 PM, wrote: >> >>> It behooves me to think about cattle. >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> **** >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > **** > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 18:03:46 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabrielgudding at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 22:03:46 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1637607305-1320185029-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1547105365-@b12.c27.bise6.blackberry> David, Yes, I wd like to see some poems discussed too. Mostly I was only asking for names of poets, offering and adding to the list myself. But any offerings of, and discussion of, such poems that encourage/inspire empathy toward non-human animals wd be welcome. Gabe "Would be very interested in seeing examples of differing approaches to the topic of human/animal relations, in any case. ?Obviously there is a vast body of non-Western and Native American literature that bears on such themes, but I gather than Gabe is looking for something else. . . " Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: David Graham Sender: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.eduDate: Tue, 01 Nov 2011 16:27:05 To: NewPoetry Reply-To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From cvoisine at nmsu.edu Tue Nov 1 19:26:05 2011 From: cvoisine at nmsu.edu (Connie Voisine) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 17:26:05 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: i am late entering this thread, but please find attached an essay connecting the age old form of the pastoral poem to these issues under discussion. in it, kinsella argues for a new "western pastoral" that takes into account our history (and abuse) of our land. of course, food production being part of the pastoral historically, it too, is included in his idea of the pastoral. he is a vegan environmental activist in the rest of his life, but in his poems i think he's managed that (to me) desirable level of compassion, ambiguity, truth telling, ugliness, etc. i heard an interview with philip roth where he says that to be political is to be didactic, which is a problem in art. i do agree with him in that the messiness of experience is, what in the end, i crave from art. i do think one can work around that problem, and many fine writers have. c On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 11:34 AM, gabriel gudding wrote: > Well said, Sheila. I don't know the exact Singer quote you mention. I > suspect, knowing his work and thought some, and knowing the controversy > surrounding secondary quotes like that, as well as Singer's replies, that > the context would alleviate/dissipate the apparent confusion around that > statement. He is remarkably compassionate in his philosophy/responsibility > to the human, & advocates we each do our best to live as simply as possible > (he himself lives very simply), so that others elsewhere are not impacted > by our consumption choices, and follows thru with that himself, giving a > third of his salary to charities. > > Here's a superb lecture by him on the ethics of eating, clearly showing > several of the complexities of the issue: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHzwqf_JkrA > > This lecture seems like it cd be a good place to begin thinking about the > severity of the issue and the difficulties of even perceiving the issue. > > The severity of this issue is intimately connected with its > hard-to-perceive reality. > > And again, the poems I'm interested in are not to do w/ meat eating, but > w/ ways of expanding/dissolving the bounds of the human and the animal, > pushing the circle of empathy out wider. Lot of poems just use animals to > meditate on the human (the famous dead-animal trope poem used to meditate > on human death, eg). > > On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 10:20 PM, wrote: > >> OK, I take it back. You're not espousing a religious position, it's a >> moral position. >> >> So let me see if I get it. It's ok to eat meat for reasons other than >> taste? >> >> Is it ok for other omnivores to eat meat if we consider them our moral >> equals? >> >> How about poems that don't reduce the complex to the simple? Any interest? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: gabriel gudding ** >> Sent: Oct 31, 2011 10:37 PM >> To: NewPoetry List ** >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >> >> Mark, didn't use any religious terminology except apostasy and soul as a >> direct reference to your religious rhetoric "faith" etc. >> >> I think it's okay to label unconscionable actions immoral. Doing so need >> not be religious. One can have an entirely secular and prescriptive >> morality, in fact. We have one called the judicial system. It's not >> perfect, but I'm grateful for it. >> >> Nor is it outside the mainstream of Western literature to assert that >> killing another animal for its taste is immoral -- and not for religious >> reasons. Goes back at least to Thoreau. Is a major reason Kafka wrote -- he >> was a bigtime veggie. >> >> Anway yes, am taken with poems that (1) help us see this, and (2) >> otherwise help us widen our circle of empathy, as we've been doing for >> several centuries now, so if you think of any more (especially living now), >> lemme know. >> >> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 9:00 PM, wrote: >> >>> It's the prescriptive part that bugs me, Gabe. And the preachy. I think >>> you're joking about apostasy, but in the context you might want to lay off >>> the religious terminology for a while. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: gabriel gudding ** >>> Sent: Oct 31, 2011 9:46 PM >>> To: NewPoetry List ** >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>> >>> Wow, lot of kids at the door. Slapped myself in the eye with a pirate >>> eyepatch. >>> >>> >>> Maybe someone cd put together an anthology of October brush-clearing >>> poems. >>> >>> >>> Stephen, thx for the tip about Snyder. >>> >>> >>> >>> Mark, many thanks for the tips re Cuban poets. Did query Kristin earlier >>> today and she listed several Cuban poets, a few she's translating, Reina >>> being one, and several Latin American writers in the latest Mandorla (14), >>> who are doing this work. Like that poem of yours, too. Well noted re your >>> apostasy. BTW there is no such thing as souls. :) >>> >>> >>> >>> Re whether empathy's relation to poetry is a suitable topic for a poetry >>> listserv: >>> >>> >>> >>> Have been learning past few months about the history of empathy theory >>> and its relation to the rise of Romanticism, poetry, fiction. Was a hotly >>> contested, thought-thru, issue. German poets and painters argued this >>> stuff. Lot of Germans in the 19thC thought other Germans had something to >>> learn about empathy (turns out they were right?). As a matter of fact, the >>> question of the animal was of deep interest in this. Franz Marc writes >>> expressly about empathy and the animal. Some theorists of empathy who >>> influenced a number of 20thC US, British, European poets: Schopenhauer, W?rringer, >>> Lipps, Nietzsche, Titchener. "Einf?hling" -- "feeling into" -- was a kind >>> of big deal in German art, especially the German counter-enlightenment >>> romanticists, and it influenced European and US writers. Some who reacted >>> against that: TS Eliot, Pound, Marinetti. But others who took up the >>> mantle: Mayakovsky, Breton, Hans Arp, P?ret, Mina Loy, C?saire. Kind of a >>> fascinating history. >>> >>> >>> JohnJ: easy on your teeth and be careful with that chainsaw. :) >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 7:19 PM, stephen russell < >>> poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: >>> >>>> I avoid their pain. They're larger than me. >>>> But they're pretty. >>>> >>>> --- On *Mon, 10/31/11, Halvard Johnson * wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> From: Halvard Johnson >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>>> To: "NewPoetry List" >>>> Date: Monday, October 31, 2011, 8:16 PM >>>> >>>> >>>> I can feel their pain. >>>> >>>> >>>> Serving the tri-state area. >>>> >>>> Hal >>>> >>>> Halvard Johnson >>>> ================ >>>> >>>> halvard at gmail.com >>>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >>>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >>>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >>>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >>>> >>>> http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >>>> >>>> Remains To Be Seen >>>> *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) >>>> ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) >>>> , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems >>>> *, *Mainly Black >>>> , *Obras P?blicas >>>> ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets >>>> ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones >>>> ; **Tango Bouquet >>>> ; **Theory of Harmony >>>> ; **Rapsodie espagnole >>>> ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway >>>> ; **The Sonnet Project >>>> ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter >>>> Journey ; **Eclipse >>>> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan >>>> ;* >>>> *Transparencies & Projections >>>> * >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 6:15 PM, stephen russell < >>>> poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> I wouldn't sweat it. In fact, the tree probably didn't give a fuck, >>>> though I can't prove it. >>>> >>>> --- On *Mon, 10/31/11, John Jeffrey >>>> >* wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> From: John Jeffrey >>>> > >>>> >>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>>> To: "NewPoetry List" >>>> > >>>> Date: Monday, October 31, 2011, 8:10 PM >>>> >>>> >>>> All the good stuff gone now: the birches, the pear tree, the Japanese >>>> maple. Two catalpas--each with trunks about 3 feet wide--fell, too, >>>> thankfully missing our house. I did use some of the wood to start fires in >>>> the fireplace, though. Is that wrong? Should I just have let the tree go >>>> free instead of putting my own greedy comfort first? >>>> >>>> Speaking of chainsaws (mine's electric and I've got no power, so it's >>>> useless), all I can think of whenever I pull out the chainsaw is Frost's >>>> brutal poem "'Out Out!'" Damn thing haunts me. >>>> >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* Halvard Johnson >>>> > >>>> *To:* NewPoetry List >>>> > >>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 31, 2011 7:45 PM >>>> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>>> >>>> As to cost, probably an arm and a leg, if you're not careful with that >>>> rented chainsaw. As a good conservative, though, make sure they cut away >>>> only the bad stuff. The good stuff is what needs to be conserved. I'm a >>>> conservative too, see? >>>> >>>> >>>> Serving the tri-state area. >>>> >>>> Hal >>>> >>>> Halvard Johnson >>>> ================ >>>> >>>> halvard at gmail.com >>>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >>>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ >>>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ >>>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ >>>> >>>> http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >>>> >>>> Remains To Be Seen >>>> *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) >>>> ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) >>>> , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems >>>> *, *Mainly Black >>>> , *Obras P?blicas >>>> ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets >>>> ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones >>>> ; **Tango Bouquet >>>> ; **Theory of Harmony >>>> ; **Rapsodie espagnole >>>> ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway >>>> ; **The Sonnet Project >>>> ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter >>>> Journey ; **Eclipse >>>> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan >>>> ;* >>>> *Transparencies & Projections >>>> * >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 5:23 PM, John Jeffrey >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Good to know., because I have some questions on how much it's going to >>>> cost to clear out all the fallen and broken trees from my property. >>>> (Snowstorm in CT.) >>>> >>>> Please discuss.. >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* Halvard Johnson >>>> > >>>> *To:* NewPoetry List >>>> > >>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 31, 2011 6:23 PM >>>> >>>> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>>> >>>> This is an open list. >>>> >>>> >>>> Serving the tri-state area. >>>> >>>> Hal >>>> >>>> Halvard Johnson >>>> ================ >>>> >>>> halvard at gmail.com >>>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >>>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ >>>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ >>>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ >>>> >>>> http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >>>> >>>> Remains To Be Seen >>>> *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) >>>> ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) >>>> , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems >>>> *, *Mainly Black >>>> , *Obras P?blicas >>>> ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets >>>> ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones >>>> ; **Tango Bouquet >>>> ; **Theory of Harmony >>>> ; **Rapsodie espagnole >>>> ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway >>>> ; **The Sonnet Project >>>> ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter >>>> Journey ; **Eclipse >>>> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan >>>> ;* >>>> *Transparencies & Projections >>>> * >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 4:13 PM, John Jeffrey >>>> > wrote: >>>> >>>> Counting me, I guess you'd have TWO resident right wing nitwits. I'm >>>> grinding my teeth reading these exchanges. (And Sam, this don't eat the >>>> hamburger conversation did not "ensue" from his essay; he mentioned >>>> extinction in his first email and stop eating animals in his second.) >>>> >>>> Still, I don' t think this conversation has a place on this list. What >>>> next? God? Guns? Abortion? >>>> >>>> JohnJ >>>> >>>> ------------------------------ >>>> *From:* "almaginnes at aol.com " >>>> > >>>> *To:* NewPoetry List >>>> > >>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 31, 2011 7:57 AM >>>> >>>> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>>> >>>> Nice too know we have our own resident right wing nitwit. Every >>>> listserv needs one. OK, off to the Weatherman meeting. >>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: R Dillon >>>> > >>>> Sender: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 06:52:20 >>>> To: >>>> > >>>> Reply-To: NewPoetry List >>>> > >>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> **** >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> **** >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Connie Voisine Associate Professor of English New Mexico State University cvoisine at nmsu.edu 575-646-2027 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Nov 1 19:56:54 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 19:56:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <1fe84.113d5f3a.3be1e145@cs.com> In a message dated 11/1/2011 3:28:53 PM Central Daylight Time, gabrielgudding at gmail.com writes: > But I can certainly get behind the okra and onions and french fries. Made > me hungry reading it. :) > > > Sorry about the mix-up with the beret. Thought it looked like your other > photos. > > The question is: who was it? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Nov 1 20:00:11 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 20:00:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <20045.5ae06e4f.3be1e20b@cs.com> In a message dated 11/1/2011 4:27:28 PM Central Daylight Time, GrahamD at ripon.edu writes: > > >> And again, the poems I'm interested in are not to do w/ meat eating, >> but w/ ways of expanding/dissolving the bounds of the human and the animal, >> pushing the circle of empathy out wider. Lot of poems just use animals to >> meditate on the human (the famous dead-animal trope poem used to meditate >> on human death, eg). > Dickey, for one. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 13:34:43 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 12:34:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Connie, Thank you for attaching the essay. It's actually a far more inclusive and comprehensive essay (in terms of both who it mentions as poetic exemplars as well as the subtleties and complexities of ideas historicized and compared) than most of what I read over the past three weeks in a recent anthology of ecopoetics put together primarily by former graduate students at suny-buffalo. Too, it's important to me to know Kinsella is a vegan activist. Really grateful to you for sharing it. Two things in particular struck me as important: 1. "More common is a pastoralisation of poetry in which other political issues are played out on the stage of the rural, without any highlighting or awareness or possibly even a conscious negation of the exploiting of the natural world that takes place in these spaces. The creation of mythologies, or authentications of presence and/or the challenging of social and ethnic inequalities, take precedence; or the natural or rural environment is used symbolically as part of this discourse." 2. "The pastoral is the quiet model the State relies on: the Nazis (especially Hitler, and also Goering with his Polish hunting forests) relied on the notion of an Arcadia, of the bucolic, to fuel their purist and racist views of humanity." For me these seem important as an acknowledgement of the refusal to see the world of the non-human animal in terms of what the human has done *to* it in its exploitation *of* it. Merely to mention this raises ire. Or, in the case of Radnoti, costs something greater. I've been thinking since August about the nature of the moral/ethical/political commitments of writers, especially poets, over the centuries (for a couple classes I'm teaching). Roth's notion that to be political is necessarily to be didactic relies on a surprising elision of the kinds of micropolitics and gender politics in his own work. I think it's only since Kant & the rise of industrial capital (am thinking of Eric Hobsbawm's history _The Age of Revolution_) that we configure a difference between pleasure/aesthetics and social/ethics. The effort of materialist philosophers and writers to push the two back together has been going on ever since. To me it seems the resistance is particularly strong when it comes to eating, as that's where the material (the social/ethical) and aesthetics (feeling / bodily sensation) conjoin. And though I don't understand it yet, I've been trying to follow Agamben's history of the notion of the animal in western political thought since Aristotle. Agamben seems to suggest something like what Kinsella (kind of) does here: the animal is the hidden exploited base of the human, and the human (so far) is a thing that needs to wake up to its own violence. Going to read Kinsella's essay again, and maybe write to him. Grateful to you, Connie. Gabe On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 6:26 PM, Connie Voisine wrote: > i am late entering this thread, but please find attached an essay > connecting the age old form of the pastoral poem to these issues under > discussion. in it, kinsella argues for a new "western pastoral" that takes > into account our history (and abuse) of our land. of course, food > production being part of the pastoral historically, it too, is included in > his idea of the pastoral. he is a vegan environmental activist in the rest > of his life, but in his poems i think he's managed that (to me) desirable > level of compassion, ambiguity, truth telling, ugliness, etc. i heard an > interview with philip roth where he says that to be political is to be > didactic, which is a problem in art. i do agree with him in that the > messiness of experience is, what in the end, i crave from art. i do think > one can work around that problem, and many fine writers have. > > c > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 11:34 AM, gabriel gudding > wrote: > >> Well said, Sheila. I don't know the exact Singer quote you mention. I >> suspect, knowing his work and thought some, and knowing the controversy >> surrounding secondary quotes like that, as well as Singer's replies, that >> the context would alleviate/dissipate the apparent confusion around that >> statement. He is remarkably compassionate in his philosophy/responsibility >> to the human, & advocates we each do our best to live as simply as possible >> (he himself lives very simply), so that others elsewhere are not impacted >> by our consumption choices, and follows thru with that himself, giving a >> third of his salary to charities. >> >> Here's a superb lecture by him on the ethics of eating, clearly showing >> several of the complexities of the issue: >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHzwqf_JkrA >> >> This lecture seems like it cd be a good place to begin thinking about the >> severity of the issue and the difficulties of even perceiving the issue. >> >> The severity of this issue is intimately connected with its >> hard-to-perceive reality. >> >> And again, the poems I'm interested in are not to do w/ meat eating, but >> w/ ways of expanding/dissolving the bounds of the human and the animal, >> pushing the circle of empathy out wider. Lot of poems just use animals to >> meditate on the human (the famous dead-animal trope poem used to meditate >> on human death, eg). >> >> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 10:20 PM, wrote: >> >>> OK, I take it back. You're not espousing a religious position, it's a >>> moral position. >>> >>> So let me see if I get it. It's ok to eat meat for reasons other than >>> taste? >>> >>> Is it ok for other omnivores to eat meat if we consider them our moral >>> equals? >>> >>> How about poems that don't reduce the complex to the simple? Any >>> interest? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: gabriel gudding ** >>> Sent: Oct 31, 2011 10:37 PM >>> To: NewPoetry List ** >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>> >>> Mark, didn't use any religious terminology except apostasy and soul as a >>> direct reference to your religious rhetoric "faith" etc. >>> >>> I think it's okay to label unconscionable actions immoral. Doing so need >>> not be religious. One can have an entirely secular and prescriptive >>> morality, in fact. We have one called the judicial system. It's not >>> perfect, but I'm grateful for it. >>> >>> Nor is it outside the mainstream of Western literature to assert that >>> killing another animal for its taste is immoral -- and not for religious >>> reasons. Goes back at least to Thoreau. Is a major reason Kafka wrote -- he >>> was a bigtime veggie. >>> >>> Anway yes, am taken with poems that (1) help us see this, and (2) >>> otherwise help us widen our circle of empathy, as we've been doing for >>> several centuries now, so if you think of any more (especially living now), >>> lemme know. >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 9:00 PM, wrote: >>> >>>> It's the prescriptive part that bugs me, Gabe. And the preachy. I think >>>> you're joking about apostasy, but in the context you might want to lay off >>>> the religious terminology for a while. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: gabriel gudding ** >>>> Sent: Oct 31, 2011 9:46 PM >>>> To: NewPoetry List ** >>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>>> >>>> Wow, lot of kids at the door. Slapped myself in the eye with a pirate >>>> eyepatch. >>>> >>>> >>>> Maybe someone cd put together an anthology of October brush-clearing >>>> poems. >>>> >>>> >>>> Stephen, thx for the tip about Snyder. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Mark, many thanks for the tips re Cuban poets. Did query Kristin >>>> earlier today and she listed several Cuban poets, a few she's translating, >>>> Reina being one, and several Latin American writers in the latest Mandorla >>>> (14), who are doing this work. Like that poem of yours, too. Well noted re >>>> your apostasy. BTW there is no such thing as souls. :) >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Re whether empathy's relation to poetry is a suitable topic for a >>>> poetry listserv: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Have been learning past few months about the history of empathy theory >>>> and its relation to the rise of Romanticism, poetry, fiction. Was a hotly >>>> contested, thought-thru, issue. German poets and painters argued this >>>> stuff. Lot of Germans in the 19thC thought other Germans had something to >>>> learn about empathy (turns out they were right?). As a matter of fact, the >>>> question of the animal was of deep interest in this. Franz Marc writes >>>> expressly about empathy and the animal. Some theorists of empathy who >>>> influenced a number of 20thC US, British, European poets: >>>> Schopenhauer, W?rringer, Lipps, Nietzsche, Titchener. "Einf?hling" -- >>>> "feeling into" -- was a kind of big deal in German art, especially the >>>> German counter-enlightenment romanticists, and it influenced European and >>>> US writers. Some who reacted against that: TS Eliot, Pound, Marinetti. But >>>> others who took up the mantle: Mayakovsky, Breton, Hans Arp, P?ret, Mina >>>> Loy, C?saire. Kind of a fascinating history. >>>> >>>> >>>> JohnJ: easy on your teeth and be careful with that chainsaw. :) >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 7:19 PM, stephen russell < >>>> poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: >>>> >>>>> I avoid their pain. They're larger than me. >>>>> But they're pretty. >>>>> >>>>> --- On *Mon, 10/31/11, Halvard Johnson * wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: Halvard Johnson >>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>>>> To: "NewPoetry List" >>>>> Date: Monday, October 31, 2011, 8:16 PM >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I can feel their pain. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Serving the tri-state area. >>>>> >>>>> Hal >>>>> >>>>> Halvard Johnson >>>>> ================ >>>>> >>>>> halvard at gmail.com >>>>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >>>>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >>>>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >>>>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >>>>> >>>>> http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >>>>> >>>>> Remains To Be Seen >>>>> *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) >>>>> ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) >>>>> , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems >>>>> *, *Mainly Black >>>>> , *Obras P?blicas >>>>> ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets >>>>> ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones >>>>> ; **Tango Bouquet >>>>> ; **Theory of Harmony >>>>> ; **Rapsodie espagnole >>>>> ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway >>>>> ; **The Sonnet Project >>>>> ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter >>>>> Journey ; **Eclipse >>>>> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan >>>>> ;* >>>>> *Transparencies & Projections >>>>> * >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 6:15 PM, stephen russell < >>>>> poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I wouldn't sweat it. In fact, the tree probably didn't give a fuck, >>>>> though I can't prove it. >>>>> >>>>> --- On *Mon, 10/31/11, John Jeffrey >>>>> >* wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> From: John Jeffrey >>>>> > >>>>> >>>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>>>> To: "NewPoetry List" >>>>> > >>>>> Date: Monday, October 31, 2011, 8:10 PM >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> All the good stuff gone now: the birches, the pear tree, the Japanese >>>>> maple. Two catalpas--each with trunks about 3 feet wide--fell, too, >>>>> thankfully missing our house. I did use some of the wood to start fires in >>>>> the fireplace, though. Is that wrong? Should I just have let the tree go >>>>> free instead of putting my own greedy comfort first? >>>>> >>>>> Speaking of chainsaws (mine's electric and I've got no power, so it's >>>>> useless), all I can think of whenever I pull out the chainsaw is Frost's >>>>> brutal poem "'Out Out!'" Damn thing haunts me. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *From:* Halvard Johnson >>>>> > >>>>> *To:* NewPoetry List >>>>> > >>>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 31, 2011 7:45 PM >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>>>> >>>>> As to cost, probably an arm and a leg, if you're not careful with that >>>>> rented chainsaw. As a good conservative, though, make sure they cut away >>>>> only the bad stuff. The good stuff is what needs to be conserved. I'm a >>>>> conservative too, see? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Serving the tri-state area. >>>>> >>>>> Hal >>>>> >>>>> Halvard Johnson >>>>> ================ >>>>> >>>>> halvard at gmail.com >>>>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >>>>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ >>>>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ >>>>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ >>>>> >>>>> http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >>>>> >>>>> Remains To Be Seen >>>>> *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) >>>>> ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) >>>>> , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems >>>>> *, *Mainly Black >>>>> , *Obras P?blicas >>>>> ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets >>>>> ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones >>>>> ; **Tango Bouquet >>>>> ; **Theory of Harmony >>>>> ; **Rapsodie espagnole >>>>> ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway >>>>> ; **The Sonnet Project >>>>> ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter >>>>> Journey ; **Eclipse >>>>> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan >>>>> ;* >>>>> *Transparencies & Projections >>>>> * >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 5:23 PM, John Jeffrey >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Good to know., because I have some questions on how much it's going to >>>>> cost to clear out all the fallen and broken trees from my property. >>>>> (Snowstorm in CT.) >>>>> >>>>> Please discuss.. >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *From:* Halvard Johnson >>>>> > >>>>> *To:* NewPoetry List >>>>> > >>>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 31, 2011 6:23 PM >>>>> >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>>>> >>>>> This is an open list. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Serving the tri-state area. >>>>> >>>>> Hal >>>>> >>>>> Halvard Johnson >>>>> ================ >>>>> >>>>> halvard at gmail.com >>>>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >>>>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ >>>>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ >>>>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ >>>>> >>>>> http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >>>>> >>>>> Remains To Be Seen >>>>> *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) >>>>> ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) >>>>> , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems >>>>> *, *Mainly Black >>>>> , *Obras P?blicas >>>>> ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets >>>>> ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones >>>>> ; **Tango Bouquet >>>>> ; **Theory of Harmony >>>>> ; **Rapsodie espagnole >>>>> ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway >>>>> ; **The Sonnet Project >>>>> ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter >>>>> Journey ; **Eclipse >>>>> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan >>>>> ;* >>>>> *Transparencies & Projections >>>>> * >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 4:13 PM, John Jeffrey >>>>> > wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Counting me, I guess you'd have TWO resident right wing nitwits. I'm >>>>> grinding my teeth reading these exchanges. (And Sam, this don't eat the >>>>> hamburger conversation did not "ensue" from his essay; he mentioned >>>>> extinction in his first email and stop eating animals in his second.) >>>>> >>>>> Still, I don' t think this conversation has a place on this list. >>>>> What next? God? Guns? Abortion? >>>>> >>>>> JohnJ >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>> *From:* "almaginnes at aol.com " >>>>> > >>>>> *To:* NewPoetry List >>>>> > >>>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 31, 2011 7:57 AM >>>>> >>>>> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>>>> >>>>> Nice too know we have our own resident right wing nitwit. Every >>>>> listserv needs one. OK, off to the Weatherman meeting. >>>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: R Dillon >>>>> > >>>>> Sender: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 06:52:20 >>>>> To: >>>>> > >>>>> Reply-To: NewPoetry List >>>>> > >>>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>>> >>>> **** >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> **** >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Connie Voisine > Associate Professor of English > New Mexico State University > cvoisine at nmsu.edu > 575-646-2027 > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cvoisine at nmsu.edu Wed Nov 2 14:02:37 2011 From: cvoisine at nmsu.edu (Connie Voisine) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 12:02:37 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: i think kinsella very exciting in a lot of ways. what we eat is one of our first and last freedoms--or that's what our culture tells us. it's the last place our old countries live, in our dumplings and whatnot, and it's the first place we go to stimulate/feed nostalgia. these sentiments all are especially sentimental/bucolic in my mind. hard to crack that open or challenge it. connie On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 11:34 AM, gabriel gudding wrote: > Connie, > > Thank you for attaching the essay. It's actually a far more inclusive and > comprehensive essay (in terms of both who it mentions as poetic exemplars > as well as the subtleties and complexities of ideas historicized and > compared) than most of what I read over the past three weeks in a recent > anthology of ecopoetics put together primarily by former graduate students > at suny-buffalo. Too, it's important to me to know Kinsella is a vegan > activist. Really grateful to you for sharing it. > > Two things in particular struck me as important: > > 1. "More common is a pastoralisation of poetry in which other political > issues are played out on the stage of the rural, without any highlighting > or awareness or possibly even a conscious negation of the exploiting of the > natural world that takes place in these spaces. The creation of > mythologies, or authentications of presence and/or the challenging of > social and ethnic inequalities, take precedence; or the natural or rural > environment is used symbolically as part of this discourse." > > 2. "The pastoral is the quiet model the State relies on: the Nazis > (especially Hitler, and also Goering with his Polish hunting forests) > relied on the notion of an Arcadia, of the bucolic, to fuel their purist > and racist views of humanity." > > For me these seem important as an acknowledgement of the refusal to see > the world of the non-human animal in terms of what the human has done *to*it in its exploitation > *of* it. Merely to mention this raises ire. Or, in the case of Radnoti, > costs something greater. > > I've been thinking since August about the nature of the > moral/ethical/political commitments of writers, especially poets, over the > centuries (for a couple classes I'm teaching). Roth's notion that to be > political is necessarily to be didactic relies on a surprising elision of > the kinds of micropolitics and gender politics in his own work. I think > it's only since Kant & the rise of industrial capital (am thinking of Eric > Hobsbawm's history _The Age of Revolution_) that we configure a difference > between pleasure/aesthetics and social/ethics. The effort of materialist > philosophers and writers to push the two back together has been going on > ever since. > > To me it seems the resistance is particularly strong when it comes to > eating, as that's where the material (the social/ethical) and aesthetics > (feeling / bodily sensation) conjoin. > > And though I don't understand it yet, I've been trying to follow Agamben's > history of the notion of the animal in western political thought since > Aristotle. Agamben seems to suggest something like what Kinsella (kind of) > does here: the animal is the hidden exploited base of the human, and the > human (so far) is a thing that needs to wake up to its own violence. > > Going to read Kinsella's essay again, and maybe write to him. Grateful to > you, Connie. > > Gabe > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 6:26 PM, Connie Voisine wrote: > >> i am late entering this thread, but please find attached an essay >> connecting the age old form of the pastoral poem to these issues under >> discussion. in it, kinsella argues for a new "western pastoral" that takes >> into account our history (and abuse) of our land. of course, food >> production being part of the pastoral historically, it too, is included in >> his idea of the pastoral. he is a vegan environmental activist in the rest >> of his life, but in his poems i think he's managed that (to me) desirable >> level of compassion, ambiguity, truth telling, ugliness, etc. i heard an >> interview with philip roth where he says that to be political is to be >> didactic, which is a problem in art. i do agree with him in that the >> messiness of experience is, what in the end, i crave from art. i do think >> one can work around that problem, and many fine writers have. >> >> c >> >> On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 11:34 AM, gabriel gudding < >> gabrielgudding at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Well said, Sheila. I don't know the exact Singer quote you mention. I >>> suspect, knowing his work and thought some, and knowing the controversy >>> surrounding secondary quotes like that, as well as Singer's replies, that >>> the context would alleviate/dissipate the apparent confusion around that >>> statement. He is remarkably compassionate in his philosophy/responsibility >>> to the human, & advocates we each do our best to live as simply as possible >>> (he himself lives very simply), so that others elsewhere are not impacted >>> by our consumption choices, and follows thru with that himself, giving a >>> third of his salary to charities. >>> >>> Here's a superb lecture by him on the ethics of eating, clearly showing >>> several of the complexities of the issue: >>> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHzwqf_JkrA >>> >>> This lecture seems like it cd be a good place to begin thinking about >>> the severity of the issue and the difficulties of even perceiving the >>> issue. >>> >>> The severity of this issue is intimately connected with its >>> hard-to-perceive reality. >>> >>> And again, the poems I'm interested in are not to do w/ meat eating, but >>> w/ ways of expanding/dissolving the bounds of the human and the animal, >>> pushing the circle of empathy out wider. Lot of poems just use animals to >>> meditate on the human (the famous dead-animal trope poem used to meditate >>> on human death, eg). >>> >>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 10:20 PM, wrote: >>> >>>> OK, I take it back. You're not espousing a religious position, it's a >>>> moral position. >>>> >>>> So let me see if I get it. It's ok to eat meat for reasons other than >>>> taste? >>>> >>>> Is it ok for other omnivores to eat meat if we consider them our moral >>>> equals? >>>> >>>> How about poems that don't reduce the complex to the simple? Any >>>> interest? >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: gabriel gudding ** >>>> Sent: Oct 31, 2011 10:37 PM >>>> To: NewPoetry List ** >>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>>> >>>> Mark, didn't use any religious terminology except apostasy and soul as >>>> a direct reference to your religious rhetoric "faith" etc. >>>> >>>> I think it's okay to label unconscionable actions immoral. Doing so >>>> need not be religious. One can have an entirely secular and prescriptive >>>> morality, in fact. We have one called the judicial system. It's not >>>> perfect, but I'm grateful for it. >>>> >>>> Nor is it outside the mainstream of Western literature to assert that >>>> killing another animal for its taste is immoral -- and not for religious >>>> reasons. Goes back at least to Thoreau. Is a major reason Kafka wrote -- he >>>> was a bigtime veggie. >>>> >>>> Anway yes, am taken with poems that (1) help us see this, and (2) >>>> otherwise help us widen our circle of empathy, as we've been doing for >>>> several centuries now, so if you think of any more (especially living now), >>>> lemme know. >>>> >>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 9:00 PM, wrote: >>>> >>>>> It's the prescriptive part that bugs me, Gabe. And the preachy. I >>>>> think you're joking about apostasy, but in the context you might want to >>>>> lay off the religious terminology for a while. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: gabriel gudding ** >>>>> Sent: Oct 31, 2011 9:46 PM >>>>> To: NewPoetry List ** >>>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>>>> >>>>> Wow, lot of kids at the door. Slapped myself in the eye with a pirate >>>>> eyepatch. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Maybe someone cd put together an anthology of October brush-clearing >>>>> poems. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Stephen, thx for the tip about Snyder. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Mark, many thanks for the tips re Cuban poets. Did query Kristin >>>>> earlier today and she listed several Cuban poets, a few she's translating, >>>>> Reina being one, and several Latin American writers in the latest Mandorla >>>>> (14), who are doing this work. Like that poem of yours, too. Well noted re >>>>> your apostasy. BTW there is no such thing as souls. :) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Re whether empathy's relation to poetry is a suitable topic for a >>>>> poetry listserv: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Have been learning past few months about the history of empathy theory >>>>> and its relation to the rise of Romanticism, poetry, fiction. Was a hotly >>>>> contested, thought-thru, issue. German poets and painters argued this >>>>> stuff. Lot of Germans in the 19thC thought other Germans had something to >>>>> learn about empathy (turns out they were right?). As a matter of fact, the >>>>> question of the animal was of deep interest in this. Franz Marc writes >>>>> expressly about empathy and the animal. Some theorists of empathy who >>>>> influenced a number of 20thC US, British, European poets: >>>>> Schopenhauer, W?rringer, Lipps, Nietzsche, Titchener. "Einf?hling" -- >>>>> "feeling into" -- was a kind of big deal in German art, especially the >>>>> German counter-enlightenment romanticists, and it influenced European and >>>>> US writers. Some who reacted against that: TS Eliot, Pound, Marinetti. But >>>>> others who took up the mantle: Mayakovsky, Breton, Hans Arp, P?ret, Mina >>>>> Loy, C?saire. Kind of a fascinating history. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> JohnJ: easy on your teeth and be careful with that chainsaw. :) >>>>> >>>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 7:19 PM, stephen russell < >>>>> poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> I avoid their pain. They're larger than me. >>>>>> But they're pretty. >>>>>> >>>>>> --- On *Mon, 10/31/11, Halvard Johnson * wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> From: Halvard Johnson >>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>>>>> To: "NewPoetry List" >>>>>> Date: Monday, October 31, 2011, 8:16 PM >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I can feel their pain. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Serving the tri-state area. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hal >>>>>> >>>>>> Halvard Johnson >>>>>> ================ >>>>>> >>>>>> halvard at gmail.com >>>>>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >>>>>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >>>>>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >>>>>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >>>>>> >>>>>> http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >>>>>> >>>>>> Remains To Be Seen >>>>>> *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) >>>>>> ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) >>>>>> , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems >>>>>> *, *Mainly Black >>>>>> , *Obras P?blicas >>>>>> ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets >>>>>> ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones >>>>>> ; **Tango Bouquet >>>>>> ; **Theory of Harmony >>>>>> ; **Rapsodie espagnole >>>>>> ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway >>>>>> ; **The Sonnet Project >>>>>> ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter >>>>>> Journey ; **Eclipse >>>>>> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan >>>>>> ;* >>>>>> *Transparencies & Projections >>>>>> * >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 6:15 PM, stephen russell < >>>>>> poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I wouldn't sweat it. In fact, the tree probably didn't give a fuck, >>>>>> though I can't prove it. >>>>>> >>>>>> --- On *Mon, 10/31/11, John Jeffrey >>>>>> >* wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> From: John Jeffrey >>>>>> > >>>>>> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>>>>> To: "NewPoetry List" >>>>>> > >>>>>> Date: Monday, October 31, 2011, 8:10 PM >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> All the good stuff gone now: the birches, the pear tree, the Japanese >>>>>> maple. Two catalpas--each with trunks about 3 feet wide--fell, too, >>>>>> thankfully missing our house. I did use some of the wood to start fires in >>>>>> the fireplace, though. Is that wrong? Should I just have let the tree go >>>>>> free instead of putting my own greedy comfort first? >>>>>> >>>>>> Speaking of chainsaws (mine's electric and I've got no power, so it's >>>>>> useless), all I can think of whenever I pull out the chainsaw is Frost's >>>>>> brutal poem "'Out Out!'" Damn thing haunts me. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> *From:* Halvard Johnson >>>>>> > >>>>>> *To:* NewPoetry List >>>>>> > >>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 31, 2011 7:45 PM >>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>>>>> >>>>>> As to cost, probably an arm and a leg, if you're not careful with >>>>>> that rented chainsaw. As a good conservative, though, make sure they cut >>>>>> away only the bad stuff. The good stuff is what needs to be conserved. I'm >>>>>> a conservative too, see? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Serving the tri-state area. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hal >>>>>> >>>>>> Halvard Johnson >>>>>> ================ >>>>>> >>>>>> halvard at gmail.com >>>>>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >>>>>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ >>>>>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ >>>>>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ >>>>>> >>>>>> http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >>>>>> >>>>>> Remains To Be Seen >>>>>> *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) >>>>>> ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) >>>>>> , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems >>>>>> *, *Mainly Black >>>>>> , *Obras P?blicas >>>>>> ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets >>>>>> ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones >>>>>> ; **Tango Bouquet >>>>>> ; **Theory of Harmony >>>>>> ; **Rapsodie espagnole >>>>>> ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway >>>>>> ; **The Sonnet Project >>>>>> ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter >>>>>> Journey ; **Eclipse >>>>>> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan >>>>>> ;* >>>>>> *Transparencies & Projections >>>>>> * >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 5:23 PM, John Jeffrey >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Good to know., because I have some questions on how much it's going >>>>>> to cost to clear out all the fallen and broken trees from my property. >>>>>> (Snowstorm in CT.) >>>>>> >>>>>> Please discuss.. >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> *From:* Halvard Johnson >>>>>> > >>>>>> *To:* NewPoetry List >>>>>> > >>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 31, 2011 6:23 PM >>>>>> >>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>>>>> >>>>>> This is an open list. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Serving the tri-state area. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hal >>>>>> >>>>>> Halvard Johnson >>>>>> ================ >>>>>> >>>>>> halvard at gmail.com >>>>>> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >>>>>> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ >>>>>> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ >>>>>> http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ >>>>>> >>>>>> http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >>>>>> >>>>>> Remains To Be Seen >>>>>> *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) >>>>>> ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) >>>>>> , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems >>>>>> *, *Mainly Black >>>>>> , *Obras P?blicas >>>>>> ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets >>>>>> ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones >>>>>> ; **Tango Bouquet >>>>>> ; **Theory of Harmony >>>>>> ; **Rapsodie espagnole >>>>>> ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway >>>>>> ; **The Sonnet Project >>>>>> ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter >>>>>> Journey ; **Eclipse >>>>>> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan >>>>>> ;* >>>>>> *Transparencies & Projections >>>>>> * >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 4:13 PM, John Jeffrey >>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Counting me, I guess you'd have TWO resident right wing nitwits. I'm >>>>>> grinding my teeth reading these exchanges. (And Sam, this don't eat the >>>>>> hamburger conversation did not "ensue" from his essay; he mentioned >>>>>> extinction in his first email and stop eating animals in his second.) >>>>>> >>>>>> Still, I don' t think this conversation has a place on this list. >>>>>> What next? God? Guns? Abortion? >>>>>> >>>>>> JohnJ >>>>>> >>>>>> ------------------------------ >>>>>> *From:* "almaginnes at aol.com " >>>>>> > >>>>>> *To:* NewPoetry List >>>>>> > >>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 31, 2011 7:57 AM >>>>>> >>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>>>>> >>>>>> Nice too know we have our own resident right wing nitwit. Every >>>>>> listserv needs one. OK, off to the Weatherman meeting. >>>>>> Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>> From: R Dillon >>>>>> > >>>>>> Sender: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>> Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 06:52:20 >>>>>> To: >>>>>> > >>>>>> Reply-To: NewPoetry List >>>>>> > >>>>>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -----Inline Attachment Follows----- >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> **** >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>>> >>>> **** >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Connie Voisine >> Associate Professor of English >> New Mexico State University >> cvoisine at nmsu.edu >> 575-646-2027 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Connie Voisine Associate Professor of English New Mexico State University cvoisine at nmsu.edu 575-646-2027 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 14:30:06 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 13:30:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Sam, thank you for the Dickey reference. I'd thought of him and couldn't recall if his treatment of the animal was empathetic or not. I'll get to the library and read him again. It's been long time since I have. Appreciate it. Sheila, I've noticed that thing you mention too: where it's easier for some to be kinder to animals than to people. There is a phenomenon I read about in an article by two U of Toronto psychologists: "ethical compensation," wherein a person who, say, buys a Prius feels more leeway to be a jerk since they're doing their part and feel they can let themselves off the hook in other ethical arenas. It's harder to forgive when this is done by people who are clearly privileged and who would otherwise have substantial resources to share in other ethical arenas. There is a neat debate I read recently with some students between Walter Besant and Henry James, about 1884 or so, in which Besant begins by insisting fiction ought to have "conscious moral purpose" and James comes back saying no no no, reality is far too complex for that!; if we do that, everything goes to pot, the work becomes didactic and artless. And James rails about that for a while and then says life is far too complex for all that and art's purpose is to show "the truth of things" and then insists that instead of Besant's "moral purpose" art should have what James calls "moral energy." Both agree it should be moral. James is just basing his moral sense in more in the hard-to-uncover nature of real. That makes sense to me too, especially in teh face of the human capacity to purposefully and accidentally delude itself. It seems like we are especially good at congratulating ourselves on our own moral life and consequently insisting that the life we're leading is not harmful in any way to the world at large. Maybe what that position lacks is the moral energy to examine one's own perceived moral purpose. Dunno. I'll think about Singer some more, but can say this: I don't like consequentialist or utilitarian ethics, to which he ascribes, for the same reason that I don't like utopias or the notion of any end justifying any means. I know he's not about utopias, but there's a way where lot of theistic ethics, to which I have an aversion, are also consequentialist. I am very taken with pragmatist ethics because it insists that part of knowing what is a good thing to do -- a moral thing to do -- is knowing what our science (our study of the real) tells us about the effect of that behavior. I think this is wise. We can say what is a good, healthful thing to do. And what is not. Sometimes that answer is fairly clear. And about *this* it looks like we're in agreement: "I guess I'm just saying--it strikes me that empathy is a very difficult task; perhaps difficult enough for poetry." :) Empathy is a very fraught and problematic term, I agree, and in a way I don't like it, but insofar as it's a term that collects a number of important virtues under one umbrella, it's useful enough (least for a listserv). :) And I also sense poetry might be very good at it sometimes. Gabe On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 6:01 PM, sheila black wrote: > I remember what what's his name (Sam Cohen maybe) one of the old moguls > about how messages should be sent by Western Union (which no longer exists > in anything like that once present form); > morality in poetry makes me nervous--though maybe not degrees of moral > empathy--but art is always a little about (it seems to me) how experience > and story tend to exceed the containers we try to fit them into; what I > guess Keats--whose birthday it was yesterday--meant by 'negative > capability' doubts and uncertainities; it certainly seems often as if the > planetary balance has tipped so in--well, I couldn't call it our favor > exactly--our will perhaps?--that eco-thinking is more morally and > practically urgent than it has ever been, but no doubt also to be alive is > to be cruel--and morality/aesthetics of everything become invariably more > complex the more you contemplate them. Or perhaps it is only that such > complexity is the only thing that feels honest enough aesthetically to be > worthy of artistic exploration. > > I am often confused about my own resistance to the animal rights stance, > which I often find people articulate when they have 1) given up on people; > or 2) because it is morally simpler for them than considering their moral > obligations vis-a-vis people. I took a walk not long ago at the very > wealth beach in Carmel, California--part of Monterey County where in the > time I was visiting, all the towns made a decision not to allow children > from the mostly Mexican (and poorest in the County) town of Salinas to play > with their children in little league soccer, t-ball, etc. As I walked on > the beach, I admired all the dogs of the people passing--mostly, I hate to > say this, but it is true, rich people's dogs, and everyone I spoke to > expressed to me without exception their great love and suffering over the > plight of animals and wishes to variously 1) open a llama rescue ranch; > leave their money to start a home for stray cats; adopt rescue grayhounds, > etc., etc. I found this curious. > > I am a poet with a disaiblity, one severe enough--though pretty mild in my > mind--that I might indeed have been--or my children might have been--a > candidate for Peter Singer's "parental termination." I don't blame him > for this particularly, but it certainly complicates my sense of his ethical > utilitarianism or the limits of that as philosophy. I guess my own > experience--my own impossibly mixed and compromised human > experience--predisposes me to thinkers--Neitzche would be one--sorry for > misspelling his name; I am the worst speller in the planet--who often say > terrible things but who have an instinct for the form of thought that often > allows them to somehow transcend the most flawed parts of their thinking. > > I am not sure any message of certainty can ever be anything but tragically > flawed--maybe why my favorite cultural critic is Walter Benjamin who always > noodles around the edges of aesthetic and moral points or seems to consider > aesthetics an important form of morality. > > I have no doubt we should not eat meat or so much meat the shape of the > planet being as it is; I have no doubt, too, in my aesthetic self that it > is somehow soul-destroying to allow for the cruelty of factory chickens or > cows that must take BGH and live in pens, that this is worse, more degraded > than the chicken one kills by strangling it or the oxen on the plain. And > yet I also have no doubt that clear proclamation or declaration of the > rightness or wrongness of such things--any sort of prohibition or fixed > moral position--is also a dreadful simplification--even a mark of my human > privilege--and as such a kind of moral degradation (though perhaps a more > minor one), too. > > Well, I've probably gotten on MY soapbox long enough.... > > I guess I'm just saying--it strikes me that empathy is a very difficult > task; perhaps difficult enough for poetry. > > Sheila > > ------------------------------ > Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 12:34:05 -0500 > From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > Well said, Sheila. I don't know the exact Singer quote you mention. I > suspect, knowing his work and thought some, and knowing the controversy > surrounding secondary quotes like that, as well as Singer's replies, that > the context would alleviate/dissipate the apparent confusion around that > statement. He is remarkably compassionate in his philosophy/responsibility > to the human, & advocates we each do our best to live as simply as possible > (he himself lives very simply), so that others elsewhere are not impacted > by our consumption choices, and follows thru with that himself, giving a > third of his salary to charities. > > Here's a superb lecture by him on the ethics of eating, clearly showing > several of the complexities of the issue: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHzwqf_JkrA > > This lecture seems like it cd be a good place to begin thinking about the > severity of the issue and the difficulties of even perceiving the issue. > > The severity of this issue is intimately connected with its > hard-to-perceive reality. > > And again, the poems I'm interested in are not to do w/ meat eating, but > w/ ways of expanding/dissolving the bounds of the human and the animal, > pushing the circle of empathy out wider. Lot of poems just use animals to > meditate on the human (the famous dead-animal trope poem used to meditate > on human death, eg). > > On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 10:20 PM, wrote: > > OK, I take it back. You're not espousing a religious position, it's a > moral position. > > So let me see if I get it. It's ok to eat meat for reasons other than > taste? > > Is it ok for other omnivores to eat meat if we consider them our moral > equals? > > How about poems that don't reduce the complex to the simple? Any interest? > > -----Original Message----- > From: gabriel gudding ** > Sent: Oct 31, 2011 10:37 PM > To: NewPoetry List ** > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > Mark, didn't use any religious terminology except apostasy and soul as a > direct reference to your religious rhetoric "faith" etc. > > I think it's okay to label unconscionable actions immoral. Doing so need > not be religious. One can have an entirely secular and prescriptive > morality, in fact. We have one called the judicial system. It's not > perfect, but I'm grateful for it. > > Nor is it outside the mainstream of Western literature to assert that > killing another animal for its taste is immoral -- and not for religious > reasons. Goes back at least to Thoreau. Is a major reason Kafka wrote -- he > was a bigtime veggie. > > Anway yes, am taken with poems that (1) help us see this, and (2) > otherwise help us widen our circle of empathy, as we've been doing for > several centuries now, so if you think of any more (especially living now), > lemme know. > > On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 9:00 PM, wrote: > > It's the prescriptive part that bugs me, Gabe. And the preachy. I think > you're joking about apostasy, but in the context you might want to lay off > the religious terminology for a while. > > -----Original Message----- > From: gabriel gudding ** > Sent: Oct 31, 2011 9:46 PM > To: NewPoetry List ** > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > Wow, lot of kids at the door. Slapped myself in the eye with a pirate > eyepatch. > > > Maybe someone cd put together an anthology of October brush-clearing > poems. > > > Stephen, thx for the tip about Snyder. > > > > Mark, many thanks for the tips re Cuban poets. Did query Kristin earlier > today and she listed several Cuban poets, a few she's translating, Reina > being one, and several Latin American writers in the latest Mandorla (14), > who are doing this work. Like that poem of yours, too. Well noted re your > apostasy. BTW there is no such thing as souls. :) > > > > Re whether empathy's relation to poetry is a suitable topic for a poetry > listserv: > > > > Have been learning past few months about the history of empathy theory and > its relation to the rise of Romanticism, poetry, fiction. Was a hotly > contested, thought-thru, issue. German poets and painters argued this > stuff. Lot of Germans in the 19thC thought other Germans had something to > learn about empathy (turns out they were right?). As a matter of fact, the > question of the animal was of deep interest in this. Franz Marc writes > expressly about empathy and the animal. Some theorists of empathy who > influenced a number of 20thC US, British, European poets: Schopenhauer, W?rringer, > Lipps, Nietzsche, Titchener. "Einf?hling" -- "feeling into" -- was a kind > of big deal in German art, especially the German counter-enlightenment > romanticists, and it influenced European and US writers. Some who reacted > against that: TS Eliot, Pound, Marinetti. But others who took up the > mantle: Mayakovsky, Breton, Hans Arp, P?ret, Mina Loy, C?saire. Kind of a > fascinating history. > > > JohnJ: easy on your teeth and be careful with that chainsaw. :) > > On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 7:19 PM, stephen russell < > poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: > > I avoid their pain. They're larger than me. > But they're pretty. > > --- On *Mon, 10/31/11, Halvard Johnson * wrote: > > > From: Halvard Johnson > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Monday, October 31, 2011, 8:16 PM > > > I can feel their pain. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 6:15 PM, stephen russell < > poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com > > wrote: > > I wouldn't sweat it. In fact, the tree probably didn't give a fuck, though > I can't prove it. > > --- On *Mon, 10/31/11, John Jeffrey > >* wrote: > > > From: John Jeffrey > > > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > To: "NewPoetry List" > > > Date: Monday, October 31, 2011, 8:10 PM > > > All the good stuff gone now: the birches, the pear tree, the Japanese > maple. Two catalpas--each with trunks about 3 feet wide--fell, too, > thankfully missing our house. I did use some of the wood to start fires in > the fireplace, though. Is that wrong? Should I just have let the tree go > free instead of putting my own greedy comfort first? > > Speaking of chainsaws (mine's electric and I've got no power, so it's > useless), all I can think of whenever I pull out the chainsaw is Frost's > brutal poem "'Out Out!'" Damn thing haunts me. > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Halvard Johnson > > > *To:* NewPoetry List > > > *Sent:* Monday, October 31, 2011 7:45 PM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > As to cost, probably an arm and a leg, if you're not careful with that > rented chainsaw. As a good conservative, though, make sure they cut away > only the bad stuff. The good stuff is what needs to be conserved. I'm a > conservative too, see? > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 5:23 PM, John Jeffrey > > wrote: > > Good to know., because I have some questions on how much it's going to > cost to clear out all the fallen and broken trees from my property. > (Snowstorm in CT.) > > Please discuss.. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Halvard Johnson > > > *To:* NewPoetry List > > > *Sent:* Monday, October 31, 2011 6:23 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > This is an open list. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 4:13 PM, John Jeffrey > > wrote: > > Counting me, I guess you'd have TWO resident right wing nitwits. I'm > grinding my teeth reading these exchanges. (And Sam, this don't eat the > hamburger conversation did not "ensue" from his essay; he mentioned > extinction in his first email and stop eating animals in his second.) > > Still, I don' t think this conversation has a place on this list. What > next? God? Guns? Abortion? > > JohnJ > > ------------------------------ > *From:* "almaginnes at aol.com " < > almaginnes at aol.com > > *To:* NewPoetry List > > > *Sent:* Monday, October 31, 2011 7:57 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > Nice too know we have our own resident right wing nitwit. Every listserv > needs one. OK, off to the Weatherman meeting. > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: R Dillon > > > Sender: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 06:52:20 > To: > > > Reply-To: NewPoetry List > > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > **** > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > **** > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Wed Nov 2 14:40:24 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 14:40:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] How about a pair of sonnets? Message-ID: Filets de Poisson Mornay -- Julia Child?s Recipe Something was up, but till he heard the knock And Lori jumped to answer it and Sue Walked in alone he didn't have a clue And even that turned out to be a crock. Back in the kitchen with the fish the clock Stopped still with Lori's tongue and news -- "Sue's through With men, she says. I want to see what you Can do. Make a good sauce. Is that a rock?" He did. They did. He didn't, though they let Him watch that night -- to pay, said Sue, their debt For food and love. It was a special hell. No telling what the real truth is, not now - And never for all of them -- but he tells how He lost at love because he cooked too well. This Morning?s Man ?So what is this mind of ours: what are these atoms with consciousness? Last week?s potatoes!? (Richard Feynman, ?The Value of Science,? 1955) Not the same man I was last week, I?m teaching Breakfast how to love you, so next week?s man Will still love next week?s you and fry a pan Of bacon for us both, a carnal preaching Of choirs to choirs, our serial selves all reaching Out to a fruitful world from which we can Contrive to feed love?s starved attention span With chance organic changes, true I Ching. It?s wonderful, this fleshly mystery, And wonderful we?ve solved some trivial part -- Not you and I, this we, but apes like us -- So wonderful that we have learned to see, With patience, hard-won skill, and cunning art, That emptiness is all and glorious. www.mikesnider.org From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Wed Nov 2 16:15:22 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 20:15:22 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, , , Message-ID: Gabriel: The Kinsella essay Connie sent IS wonderful. I like the idea of "moral energy" as opposed to "moral purpose." I wonder if I resist consequentialist or utilitarian ethics because they seem to translate too much of what we experience into a recognizable economy of exchange and value, which is all very well, but robs from us a portion of eternity or the boundless. I am not religious, but struck often the philosophical ideas (or make that artistic ideas) I am most attracted to seem precisely those than unmake the notion of "a rational economy." For instance--art--if it has an economy at all--has more the economy of a wild dice throw or an act of sacrifice than one of "reasonable hourly work well and fairly paid." Or maybe that is just because I am not very good at reasonable work. I have a similar resistance to pragmatic ethics (how do we know, say, science is looking at the right things?) but I suspect that is as much from childish willfulness as anything--like insisting on eating or drinking what I know is NOT good for me and being happy about it; ah, the pleasure of perversity in other words (and there is something perverse or at least spoiled in the pleasure of the pastoral); and empathy, which does seem to me & despite everything the most important thing, like being kind. I am struck not only how difficult empathy is, how much it depends on a radical act of imagination, but also that we are usually only driven to true feats of empathy, such difficult acts of imagination, by some real and/or extraordinary pressure. For instance, the way people will try very hard to figure out a beloved, poring over the most minor turns of phrase, the most innocuous statements. Or how you might try very hard to imagine what an enemy might think or feel if you have one. Or--to bring it back to animals--and why I started thinking about this--those beautiful strange tender and deeply empathetic pictures of animals on the prehistoric walls of Lascaux, Chauvet, Pech Merle, etc--whose scrupulous accuracy and attention seems to derive finally from the pressure of need, hunger--pictures painted by hunters. And the added strangeness that if you can say one thing about humans it is that we are fundamentally--or distinguished by our being as--aesthetic creatures; and how must that complicate our claims to morality? I remember when I was reading a lot about disability at one point, completely drowning in David Hume and the other Enlightenment thinkers--who really wanted a way to create a taxonomy of beauty and deformity, a moral order to "fit within," how cheered I was by this (well-known) quote by Spinoza: "I would warn you that I do not attribute to nature either beauty or deformity, order or confusion. Only in relation to our imagination can things be called beautiful or ugly, well-ordered or confused." Which is--perhaps--something like what you are getting at when you speak of "the moral energy to examine one's own perceived moral purpose." Anyway-- Cheers! Sheila Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 13:30:06 -0500 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Sam, thank you for the Dickey reference. I'd thought of him and couldn't recall if his treatment of the animal was empathetic or not. I'll get to the library and read him again. It's been long time since I have. Appreciate it. Sheila, I've noticed that thing you mention too: where it's easier for some to be kinder to animals than to people. There is a phenomenon I read about in an article by two U of Toronto psychologists: "ethical compensation," wherein a person who, say, buys a Prius feels more leeway to be a jerk since they're doing their part and feel they can let themselves off the hook in other ethical arenas. It's harder to forgive when this is done by people who are clearly privileged and who would otherwise have substantial resources to share in other ethical arenas. There is a neat debate I read recently with some students between Walter Besant and Henry James, about 1884 or so, in which Besant begins by insisting fiction ought to have "conscious moral purpose" and James comes back saying no no no, reality is far too complex for that!; if we do that, everything goes to pot, the work becomes didactic and artless. And James rails about that for a while and then says life is far too complex for all that and art's purpose is to show "the truth of things" and then insists that instead of Besant's "moral purpose" art should have what James calls "moral energy." Both agree it should be moral. James is just basing his moral sense in more in the hard-to-uncover nature of real. That makes sense to me too, especially in teh face of the human capacity to purposefully and accidentally delude itself. It seems like we are especially good at congratulating ourselves on our own moral life and consequently insisting that the life we're leading is not harmful in any way to the world at large. Maybe what that position lacks is the moral energy to examine one's own perceived moral purpose. Dunno. I'll think about Singer some more, but can say this: I don't like consequentialist or utilitarian ethics, to which he ascribes, for the same reason that I don't like utopias or the notion of any end justifying any means. I know he's not about utopias, but there's a way where lot of theistic ethics, to which I have an aversion, are also consequentialist. I am very taken with pragmatist ethics because it insists that part of knowing what is a good thing to do -- a moral thing to do -- is knowing what our science (our study of the real) tells us about the effect of that behavior. I think this is wise. We can say what is a good, healthful thing to do. And what is not. Sometimes that answer is fairly clear. And about this it looks like we're in agreement: "I guess I'm just saying--it strikes me that empathy is a very difficult task; perhaps difficult enough for poetry." :) Empathy is a very fraught and problematic term, I agree, and in a way I don't like it, but insofar as it's a term that collects a number of important virtues under one umbrella, it's useful enough (least for a listserv). :) And I also sense poetry might be very good at it sometimes. Gabe On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 6:01 PM, sheila black wrote: I remember what what's his name (Sam Cohen maybe) one of the old moguls about how messages should be sent by Western Union (which no longer exists in anything like that once present form); morality in poetry makes me nervous--though maybe not degrees of moral empathy--but art is always a little about (it seems to me) how experience and story tend to exceed the containers we try to fit them into; what I guess Keats--whose birthday it was yesterday--meant by 'negative capability' doubts and uncertainities; it certainly seems often as if the planetary balance has tipped so in--well, I couldn't call it our favor exactly--our will perhaps?--that eco-thinking is more morally and practically urgent than it has ever been, but no doubt also to be alive is to be cruel--and morality/aesthetics of everything become invariably more complex the more you contemplate them. Or perhaps it is only that such complexity is the only thing that feels honest enough aesthetically to be worthy of artistic exploration. I am often confused about my own resistance to the animal rights stance, which I often find people articulate when they have 1) given up on people; or 2) because it is morally simpler for them than considering their moral obligations vis-a-vis people. I took a walk not long ago at the very wealth beach in Carmel, California--part of Monterey County where in the time I was visiting, all the towns made a decision not to allow children from the mostly Mexican (and poorest in the County) town of Salinas to play with their children in little league soccer, t-ball, etc. As I walked on the beach, I admired all the dogs of the people passing--mostly, I hate to say this, but it is true, rich people's dogs, and everyone I spoke to expressed to me without exception their great love and suffering over the plight of animals and wishes to variously 1) open a llama rescue ranch; leave their money to start a home for stray cats; adopt rescue grayhounds, etc., etc. I found this curious. I am a poet with a disaiblity, one severe enough--though pretty mild in my mind--that I might indeed have been--or my children might have been--a candidate for Peter Singer's "parental termination." I don't blame him for this particularly, but it certainly complicates my sense of his ethical utilitarianism or the limits of that as philosophy. I guess my own experience--my own impossibly mixed and compromised human experience--predisposes me to thinkers--Neitzche would be one--sorry for misspelling his name; I am the worst speller in the planet--who often say terrible things but who have an instinct for the form of thought that often allows them to somehow transcend the most flawed parts of their thinking. I am not sure any message of certainty can ever be anything but tragically flawed--maybe why my favorite cultural critic is Walter Benjamin who always noodles around the edges of aesthetic and moral points or seems to consider aesthetics an important form of morality. I have no doubt we should not eat meat or so much meat the shape of the planet being as it is; I have no doubt, too, in my aesthetic self that it is somehow soul-destroying to allow for the cruelty of factory chickens or cows that must take BGH and live in pens, that this is worse, more degraded than the chicken one kills by strangling it or the oxen on the plain. And yet I also have no doubt that clear proclamation or declaration of the rightness or wrongness of such things--any sort of prohibition or fixed moral position--is also a dreadful simplification--even a mark of my human privilege--and as such a kind of moral degradation (though perhaps a more minor one), too. Well, I've probably gotten on MY soapbox long enough.... I guess I'm just saying--it strikes me that empathy is a very difficult task; perhaps difficult enough for poetry. Sheila Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2011 12:34:05 -0500 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Well said, Sheila. I don't know the exact Singer quote you mention. I suspect, knowing his work and thought some, and knowing the controversy surrounding secondary quotes like that, as well as Singer's replies, that the context would alleviate/dissipate the apparent confusion around that statement. He is remarkably compassionate in his philosophy/responsibility to the human, & advocates we each do our best to live as simply as possible (he himself lives very simply), so that others elsewhere are not impacted by our consumption choices, and follows thru with that himself, giving a third of his salary to charities. Here's a superb lecture by him on the ethics of eating, clearly showing several of the complexities of the issue: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHzwqf_JkrA This lecture seems like it cd be a good place to begin thinking about the severity of the issue and the difficulties of even perceiving the issue. The severity of this issue is intimately connected with its hard-to-perceive reality. And again, the poems I'm interested in are not to do w/ meat eating, but w/ ways of expanding/dissolving the bounds of the human and the animal, pushing the circle of empathy out wider. Lot of poems just use animals to meditate on the human (the famous dead-animal trope poem used to meditate on human death, eg). On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 10:20 PM, wrote: OK, I take it back. You're not espousing a religious position, it's a moral position. So let me see if I get it. It's ok to eat meat for reasons other than taste? Is it ok for other omnivores to eat meat if we consider them our moral equals? How about poems that don't reduce the complex to the simple? Any interest? -----Original Message----- From: gabriel gudding Sent: Oct 31, 2011 10:37 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Mark, didn't use any religious terminology except apostasy and soul as a direct reference to your religious rhetoric "faith" etc. I think it's okay to label unconscionable actions immoral. Doing so need not be religious. One can have an entirely secular and prescriptive morality, in fact. We have one called the judicial system. It's not perfect, but I'm grateful for it. Nor is it outside the mainstream of Western literature to assert that killing another animal for its taste is immoral -- and not for religious reasons. Goes back at least to Thoreau. Is a major reason Kafka wrote -- he was a bigtime veggie. Anway yes, am taken with poems that (1) help us see this, and (2) otherwise help us widen our circle of empathy, as we've been doing for several centuries now, so if you think of any more (especially living now), lemme know. On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 9:00 PM, wrote: It's the prescriptive part that bugs me, Gabe. And the preachy. I think you're joking about apostasy, but in the context you might want to lay off the religious terminology for a while. -----Original Message----- From: gabriel gudding Sent: Oct 31, 2011 9:46 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Wow, lot of kids at the door. Slapped myself in the eye with a pirate eyepatch. Maybe someone cd put together an anthology of October brush-clearing poems. Stephen, thx for the tip about Snyder. Mark, many thanks for the tips re Cuban poets. Did query Kristin earlier today and she listed several Cuban poets, a few she's translating, Reina being one, and several Latin American writers in the latest Mandorla (14), who are doing this work. Like that poem of yours, too. Well noted re your apostasy. BTW there is no such thing as souls. :) Re whether empathy's relation to poetry is a suitable topic for a poetry listserv: Have been learning past few months about the history of empathy theory and its relation to the rise of Romanticism, poetry, fiction. Was a hotly contested, thought-thru, issue. German poets and painters argued this stuff. Lot of Germans in the 19thC thought other Germans had something to learn about empathy (turns out they were right?). As a matter of fact, the question of the animal was of deep interest in this. Franz Marc writes expressly about empathy and the animal. Some theorists of empathy who influenced a number of 20thC US, British, European poets: Schopenhauer, W?rringer, Lipps, Nietzsche, Titchener. "Einf?hling" -- "feeling into" -- was a kind of big deal in German art, especially the German counter-enlightenment romanticists, and it influenced European and US writers. Some who reacted against that: TS Eliot, Pound, Marinetti. But others who took up the mantle: Mayakovsky, Breton, Hans Arp, P?ret, Mina Loy, C?saire. Kind of a fascinating history. JohnJ: easy on your teeth and be careful with that chainsaw. :) On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 7:19 PM, stephen russell wrote: I avoid their pain. They're larger than me. But they're pretty. --- On Mon, 10/31/11, Halvard Johnson wrote: From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Monday, October 31, 2011, 8:16 PM I can feel their pain. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 6:15 PM, stephen russell wrote: I wouldn't sweat it. In fact, the tree probably didn't give a fuck, though I can't prove it. --- On Mon, 10/31/11, John Jeffrey wrote: From: John Jeffrey Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Monday, October 31, 2011, 8:10 PM All the good stuff gone now: the birches, the pear tree, the Japanese maple. Two catalpas--each with trunks about 3 feet wide--fell, too, thankfully missing our house. I did use some of the wood to start fires in the fireplace, though. Is that wrong? Should I just have let the tree go free instead of putting my own greedy comfort first? Speaking of chainsaws (mine's electric and I've got no power, so it's useless), all I can think of whenever I pull out the chainsaw is Frost's brutal poem "'Out Out!'" Damn thing haunts me. From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry List Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 7:45 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption As to cost, probably an arm and a leg, if you're not careful with that rented chainsaw. As a good conservative, though, make sure they cut away only the bad stuff. The good stuff is what needs to be conserved. I'm a conservative too, see? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 5:23 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: Good to know., because I have some questions on how much it's going to cost to clear out all the fallen and broken trees from my property. (Snowstorm in CT.) Please discuss.. From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry List Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 6:23 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption This is an open list. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Mon, Oct 31, 2011 at 4:13 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: Counting me, I guess you'd have TWO resident right wing nitwits. I'm grinding my teeth reading these exchanges. (And Sam, this don't eat the hamburger conversation did not "ensue" from his essay; he mentioned extinction in his first email and stop eating animals in his second.) Still, I don' t think this conversation has a place on this list. What next? God? Guns? Abortion? JohnJ From: "almaginnes at aol.com" To: NewPoetry List Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 7:57 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Nice too know we have our own resident right wing nitwit. Every listserv needs one. OK, off to the Weatherman meeting. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: R Dillon Sender: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2011 06:52:20 To: Reply-To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Wed Nov 2 17:42:34 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 21:42:34 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Review Copies go to... ? In-Reply-To: <1314221645.53903.YahooMailNeo@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <1314221645.53903.YahooMailNeo@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Where should they go???? Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2011 14:34:05 -0700 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com To: WOM-PO at LISTS.ncc.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Review Copies go to... ? You haven't been keeping up with what's "hot" in Poetry. You have a new book coming out in a few months; where should the review copies go!? Amy *********VIDA: Women in Literary Arts+ Interviews Amy's Alias+ http://amyking.org/ ******** _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 17:48:15 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 14:48:15 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] How about a pair of sonnets? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: like - Jim On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 11:40 AM, Michael Snider wrote: > Filets de Poisson Mornay -- Julia Child?s Recipe > > > > Something was up, but till he heard the knock > And Lori jumped to answer it and Sue > Walked in alone he didn't have a clue > And even that turned out to be a crock. > Back in the kitchen with the fish the clock > Stopped still with Lori's tongue and news -- "Sue's through > With men, she says. I want to see what you > Can do. Make a good sauce. Is that a rock?" > He did. They did. He didn't, though they let > Him watch that night -- to pay, said Sue, their debt > For food and love. It was a special hell. > No telling what the real truth is, not now - > And never for all of them -- but he tells how > He lost at love because he cooked too well. > > > > > > > This Morning?s Man > > ?So what is this mind of ours: what are these atoms with consciousness? > Last week?s potatoes!? > (Richard Feynman, ?The Value of Science,? 1955) > > > Not the same man I was last week, I?m teaching > Breakfast how to love you, so next week?s man > Will still love next week?s you and fry a pan > Of bacon for us both, a carnal preaching > Of choirs to choirs, our serial selves all reaching > Out to a fruitful world from which we can > Contrive to feed love?s starved attention span > With chance organic changes, true I Ching. > It?s wonderful, this fleshly mystery, > And wonderful we?ve solved some trivial part -- > Not you and I, this we, but apes like us -- > So wonderful that we have learned to see, > With patience, hard-won skill, and cunning art, > That emptiness is all and glorious. > > > www.mikesnider.org > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 17:56:21 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 16:56:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Plath's Drawings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow. I especially like the one of the cow. On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 9:34 AM, Catherine Daly wrote: > Visual ArtsSylvia Plath's Never-Before-Exhibited Drawings Today > would have been Sylvia Plath's 79th birthday, had she not committed suicide > at age 30. Although the literary legend is best known for her > semi-autobiographical novel*The Bell Jar* and the posthumously published > collection of poetry *Ariel*, as her daughter Freida Hughes explains, > "her passion for art permeated her short life." After abandoning the > vibrant, complex paintings she made during her years as an art student, > Plath continued to draw compulsively and illustrate her writing, deriving > pleasure and inspiration from the craft. Now, for the first time, 44 pen > and ink drawings by Plath will be on view at the Mayor Gallery in London. > See a selection of works from *Sylvia Plath: Her Drawings and Dadamaino: > Volumes* in our gallery. Read more ? > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Wed Nov 2 18:00:57 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 18:00:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Review Copies go to... ? In-Reply-To: <1314221645.53903.YahooMailNeo@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <1314221645.53903.YahooMailNeo@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Don't have an answer, but unless the question is entirely rhetorical, congratulations! www.mikesnider.org On Aug 24, 2011, at 17:34, amy king wrote: > You haven't been keeping up with what's "hot" in Poetry. You have a new book coming out in a few months; where should the review copies go!? > > Amy > > > ********* > VIDA: Women in Literary Arts > + Interviews > > Amy's Alias > + http://amyking.org/ > ******** > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Nov 2 18:00:34 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 18:00:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Note for List Management Message-ID: <8CE67C1FB0317D6-E08-D2162@webmail-m067.sysops.aol.com> I've been struggling with the protracted power outage here in CT; so I've not been following threads as closely as I generally do. I hope everyone is treating each other respectfully. (I saw one post that prompted a b/c warning.) Also, I did some clean up and release of 'system held' messages. Older stuff I just dumped. A word to the wise, two things that will get your post held back by the system.... 'Implicit destinations': Too many bcc's in the post. I you're trying to post an announcement to New-Poetry, you should send it all by itself to the list, not with multiple bcc's to other lists and people. Message too large: 200KB max. Which generally means you've replied without cleaning up that mighty long string of messages appended to your email post. Have fun and be kind... "We who lived in concentration camps can remember the menwho walked throughout thehuts comforting others, giving away their last piece of bread. Theymay have been few in number, but they offer sufficientproof that everything can be taken away from a man but one thing: thelast of the human freedoms -- to choose one's attitude in anygiven set of circumstances, to choose one's own way." -- Viktor Frankl -- Jim Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Wed Nov 2 18:13:26 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 22:13:26 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Note for List Management In-Reply-To: <8CE67C1FB0317D6-E08-D2162@webmail-m067.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE67C1FB0317D6-E08-D2162@webmail-m067.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Jim, Welcome back to power world! Sheila (cutting the tail off here---) _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fox.skip at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 18:33:22 2011 From: fox.skip at gmail.com (Skip Fox) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 17:33:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Review Copies go to... ? In-Reply-To: <1314221645.53903.YahooMailNeo@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <1314221645.53903.YahooMailNeo@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I, too, would love to see such a list. On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 4:34 PM, amy king wrote: > You haven't been keeping up with what's "hot" in Poetry. You have a new > book coming out in a few months; where should the review copies go!? > > Amy > > > ********* > VIDA: Women in Literary Arts > + Interviews > > Amy's Alias > + http://amyking.org/ > ******** > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Wed Nov 2 18:59:55 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 18:59:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] How about a pair of sonnets? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <37742C96-E08D-40E3-98E1-6A2553579487@mikesnider.org> Why, thank you, James! www.mikesnider.org On Nov 2, 2011, at 17:48, James Cervantes wrote: > like > > - Jim > > From amyhappens at yahoo.com Wed Nov 2 20:02:31 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 17:02:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Review Copies go to... ? In-Reply-To: References: <1314221645.53903.YahooMailNeo@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1320278551.67046.YahooMailNeo@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Moreover, why is this email from August appearing in November? ? Amy p.s. ?My book is almost out and reviews are in the works if my Spidey-senses are correct. ********* Amy's Alias +?http://amyking.org/? ******** ________________________________ From: Skip Fox ? I, too, would love to see such a list. On Wed, Aug 24, 2011 at 4:34 PM, amy king wrote: You haven't been keeping up with what's "hot" in Poetry.? You have a new book coming out in a few months; where should the review copies go!? > > >Amy > >? > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Wed Nov 2 20:03:44 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 17:03:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Review Copies go to... ? In-Reply-To: References: <1314221645.53903.YahooMailNeo@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1320278624.81394.YahooMailNeo@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Thanks, Mike! *********? Amy's Alias +?http://amyking.org/? ******** ________________________________ From: Michael Snider Don't have an answer, but unless the question is entirely rhetorical, congratulations! www.mikesnider.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Nov 2 21:23:55 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 21:23:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Note for List Management In-Reply-To: References: <8CE67C1FB0317D6-E08-D2162@webmail-m067.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CE67DE6341DB6F-278C-152DB0@webmail-m150.sysops.aol.com> I'm not there yet...spending the fifth night without power. But with battery life in my notebook plus verizon wireless, I'm doing email by candlelight. Jim Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: sheila black To: new-poetry Sent: Wed, Nov 2, 2011 6:22 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Note for List Management Jim, Welcome back to power world! Sheila (cutting the tail off here---) _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Wed Nov 2 23:03:38 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2011 23:03:38 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Note for List Management Message-ID: <10133495.1320289419099.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 03:20:50 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 08:20:50 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Note for List Management In-Reply-To: <10133495.1320289419099.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <10133495.1320289419099.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Take it easy Jim. These are all grown up kids, don't worry. They know how to behave [sometimes] On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 4:03 AM, wrote: > Wow Jim that's devotion! > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 08:46:24 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 13:46:24 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Astronauts of inner space Message-ID: http://loriemersondotnet.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/astronautsofinnerspace.pdf an interesting pdf -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 08:57:13 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 05:57:13 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Astronauts of inner space In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, Anny. And no spacesuit necessary! - Jim On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 5:46 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > http://loriemersondotnet.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/astronautsofinnerspace.pdf > an interesting pdf > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Thu Nov 3 10:13:35 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 10:13:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] unlikely verse Message-ID: <27B54893-162D-40BD-ACF7-8B85BE8CE398@mikesnider.org> From the NYT science section, in an article (http://nyti.ms/rtaGbi) on animal cannibalism: "Oh, little cane toads lacking legs, how greedily you snack on pre-toads packed in eggs!" www.mikesnider.org From junction at earthlink.net Thu Nov 3 10:26:24 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 10:26:24 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] unlikely verse Message-ID: <2418608.1320330385345.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An amphibian nursery rhyme! -----Original Message----- >From: Michael Snider >Sent: Nov 3, 2011 10:13 AM >To: New Poetry >Subject: [New-Poetry] unlikely verse > >From the NYT science section, in an article (http://nyti.ms/rtaGbi) on animal cannibalism: "Oh, little cane toads lacking legs, how greedily you snack on pre-toads packed in eggs!" > >www.mikesnider.org >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Thu Nov 3 10:29:48 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 14:29:48 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] unlikely verse In-Reply-To: <2418608.1320330385345.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <2418608.1320330385345.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Marvelous! > Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 10:26:24 -0400 > From: junction at earthlink.net > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] unlikely verse > > An amphibian nursery rhyme! > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Michael Snider > >Sent: Nov 3, 2011 10:13 AM > >To: New Poetry > >Subject: [New-Poetry] unlikely verse > > > >From the NYT science section, in an article (http://nyti.ms/rtaGbi) on animal cannibalism: "Oh, little cane toads lacking legs, how greedily you snack on pre-toads packed in eggs!" > > > >www.mikesnider.org > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope_productions at hotmail.com Thu Nov 3 13:19:20 2011 From: elemenope_productions at hotmail.com (R Dillon) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 17:19:20 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Astronauts of inner space In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks. This anthology is crucial. Borders, Inc. out of business. Friends there lost to perilous night. Kindle me cliches, Bezos, with your toy. Guttenberg got a role at Google. Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 13:46:24 +0100 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Astronauts of inner space http://loriemersondotnet.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/astronautsofinnerspace.pdf an interesting pdf -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Thu Nov 3 14:34:00 2011 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2011 13:34:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Just a poem, if that's OK.... Message-ID: A post of mine apparently went missing last night. Maybe it was eaten by Jim Finnegan?s laptop battery. Anyway, so that this isn?t merely a test message, here?s a poem for your instruction and delight. James Joyce James Joyce He was stupid He didn't know as much as me I'd rather throw dead batteries at cows Than read him Everything was going fine Before he came along He started the Civil War He tried to get the French involved But they wouldn't listen They filled him up with desserts He talked about all the great boxers That came from Ireland Like he trained 'em or something Then he started reading some of his stuff Right as we told him to get lost He brought up the potato famine We said "Your potatoes are plenty good. Deal with it! Work it out somehow!" Then he said "America must adopt the metric system. It's much more logical." We said "No ! We like our rulers! Go away!" Thomas Jefferson said, "You always get the rulers you deserve." --Matt Cook. In the Small of My Backyard. Manic D Press, 2002. -- ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 14:50:45 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 19:50:45 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Astronauts of inner space In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Unluckily I must agree, this on the negative side. The positive has been shining for a while. On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 6:19 PM, R Dillon wrote: > Thanks. This anthology is crucial. > > Borders, Inc. out of business. Friends there lost to perilous night. > > Kindle me cliches, Bezos, with your toy. Guttenberg got a role at Google. > > ------------------------------ > Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 13:46:24 +0100 > From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: [New-Poetry] Astronauts of inner space > > > > http://loriemersondotnet.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/astronautsofinnerspace.pdf > an interesting pdf > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 15:03:39 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 13:03:39 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Just a poem, if that's OK.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Love the part about filling JJ up with desserts, but I hope they were just ones. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 12:34 PM, David Graham wrote: > A post of mine apparently went missing last night. Maybe it was eaten > by Jim Finnegan?s laptop battery. Anyway, so that this isn?t merely a test > message, here?s a poem for your instruction and delight. > > > James Joyce > > James Joyce > He was stupid > He didn't know as much as me > I'd rather throw dead batteries at cows > Than read him > Everything was going fine > Before he came along > He started the Civil War > He tried to get the French involved > But they wouldn't listen > They filled him up with desserts > He talked about all the great boxers > That came from Ireland > Like he trained 'em or something > Then he started reading some of his stuff > Right as we told him to get lost > He brought up the potato famine > We said "Your potatoes are plenty good. > Deal with it! Work it out somehow!" > Then he said "America must adopt the metric system. > It's much more logical." We said "No ! > We like our rulers! Go away!" > Thomas Jefferson said, > "You always get the rulers you deserve." > > --Matt Cook. In the Small of My Backyard. Manic D Press, 2002. > > > -- > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Thu Nov 3 16:46:58 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 13:46:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Just a poem, if that's OK.... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1320353218.13542.YahooMailNeo@web120527.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> There's a funny YouTube video of him reading this. ?(It's from the PBS series, "The United States of Poetry.") I love his drag on the word "stuff" when he reads the line, "Then he started reading some of his sssssssssstuff." >________________________________ >From: David Graham >To: NewPoetry >Sent: Thursday, November 3, 2011 2:34 PM >Subject: [New-Poetry] Just a poem, if that's OK.... > > >Just a poem, if that's OK.... A post of mine apparently went missing last night. ?Maybe it was eaten by Jim Finnegan?s laptop battery. ?Anyway, so that this isn?t merely a test message, here?s a poem for your instruction and delight. > > >James Joyce > >James Joyce >He was stupid >He didn't know as much as me >I'd rather throw dead batteries at cows >Than read him >Everything was going fine >Before he came along >He started the Civil War >He tried to get the French involved >But they wouldn't listen >They filled him up with desserts >He talked about all the great boxers >That came from Ireland >Like he trained 'em or something >Then he started reading some of his stuff >Right as we told him to get lost >He brought up the potato famine >We said "Your potatoes are plenty good. >Deal with it! ?Work it out somehow!" >Then he said "America must adopt the metric system. >It's much more logical." ?We said "No ! >We like our rulers! ?Go away!" >Thomas Jefferson said, >"You always get the rulers you deserve." > >--Matt Cook. ?In the Small of My Backyard. ?Manic D Press, 2002. > > >-- > >======================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu > >Home Page: >http://web.me.com/drjazz > >Poetry Library: >http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >========================================== > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Thu Nov 3 17:09:14 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 14:09:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Just a poem, if that's OK.... In-Reply-To: <1320353218.13542.YahooMailNeo@web120527.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1320354554.1558.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> there's a great video of Matt Cook doing this one. --- On Thu, 11/3/11, John Jeffrey wrote: From: John Jeffrey Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Just a poem, if that's OK.... To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 4:46 PM There's a funny YouTube video of him reading this. ?(It's from the PBS series, "The United States of Poetry.") I love his drag on the word "stuff" when he reads the line, "Then he started reading some of his sssssssssstuff." From: David Graham To: NewPoetry Sent: Thursday, November 3, 2011 2:34 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Just a poem, if that's OK.... Just a poem, if that's OK.... A post of mine apparently went missing last night. ?Maybe it was eaten by Jim Finnegan?s laptop battery. ?Anyway, so that this isn?t merely a test message, here?s a poem for your instruction and delight. James Joyce James Joyce He was stupid He didn't know as much as me I'd rather throw dead batteries at cows Than read him Everything was going fine Before he came along He started the Civil War He tried to get the French involved But they wouldn't listen They filled him up with desserts He talked about all the great boxers That came from Ireland Like he trained 'em or something Then he started reading some of his stuff Right as we told him to get lost He brought up the potato famine We said "Your potatoes are plenty good. Deal with it! ?Work it out somehow!" Then he said "America must adopt the metric system. It's much more logical." ?We said "No ! We like our rulers! ?Go away!" Thomas Jefferson said, "You always get the rulers you deserve." --Matt Cook. ?In the Small of My Backyard. ?Manic D Press, 2002. -- ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Nov 4 12:38:52 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 12:38:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] LitMag Watch: New Issue of MEAD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CE69275F1E1835-FD8-176B06@webmail-d164.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- Sent: Fri, Nov 4, 2011 12:07 pm Subject: New Issue of MEAD The new issue of MEAD: The Magazine of Literature and Libations is up and unning online and can be reached at ttp://www.meadmagazine.org/Mead.html he issue features new work by Nicole Cooley, Tom Lux, Peter Sears, Bruce erger, Philip Dacey, Virginia Slachman, Katharine Coles, Evie Shockley, and ore. Plus an interview with winemaker Seth Long, and reviews of books by B. . Fairchild, Noelle Kocot, Jennifer Grotz, and Nick Flynn (among others). ip in, have a sip, taste the work of some of the best poets writing today. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 12:46:50 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 11:46:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Sheila, Thanks for your reply. I got very busy at work. In terms of beauty and bodies, I often think of something sd or written by a theravadan vipassana meditator named Thanissaro Bhikkhu. It was something like, "The way we compare one body to another, one face to another, is absolutely insane." This same inherently divisive thing we often do with one another, is also what we do with animals. Here is a fellow being who feels, grieves, loves, wants, wishes, feels surprise, heartache, anger, disgust (and we know now that all mammals, and many vertebrates, feel these things too) -- and yet we have no problem enslaving it, putting it in stress positions, injecting it with harmful toxins, and then killing and eating it. We have no problem because we see it divisively in precisely the way mentioned above. Regarding encouraging and discouraging behaviors along right/wrong dimensions: We can and do converge on moral issues often. Sometimes it takes culture a long time to converge on moral issues. Spousal abuse: wrong. Yet, a man hitting his wife was considered an okay thing to do in 1950s Minnesota. Think how long it took Europe and the Americas to outlaw slavery or to accord women and, in the States, African-Americans the vote. Those were wrongs with moral, political, and ethical dimensions, labeled as wrongs, that took far too long to recognize and arrive at consensus about. There is a great article by Michele Moody-Adams, a moral philosopher, in _Setting the Moral Compass_ called "The Idea of Moral Progress," as to how progress in moral understanding happens: http://tinyurl.com/3fw2fo4 I think there is something similar happening now in our treatment of a newly seen Other: our fellow earthlings here with us inhabiting different bodies. We think some of these bodies are composed only of meat, while they also contain thoughts, languages, emotions, ideas -- things we used to think only human. Re pragmatist ethics and science. I hear your concern. And I am taken with neuroscientist and moral philosopher Sam Harris who suggests that science already does help people see what is moral, and by moral he merely means correctly valued knowledge about well-being. His formulation goes something like this: morality already lies in the realm of knowledge, not the realm of mere opinion or ritual or labeling: "values are facts about the well-being of conscious creatures" is how he gets there. I think it's compelling. There is a western antipathy to seeing morality as something to do with well-being. For Aristotle this wasn't a problem. And I agree that it is important for poetry/literature to have a moral/ethical energy, or at least be a consideration into literature's coming-into-being. Following Connie's Kinsella article, Ashley Capps pointed me to another essay by Kinsella, in which he says, "For me, poetry has no point in existing if it?s not to be a prompt or aid to political and ethical change. This is not to say that a poem should be political or ethical instruction, but rather that it might engender a dialogue between the poem itself and the reader / listener, between itself and other poems and texts, and between all of these and a broader public (whatever that might be). I see myself as a poet activist?every time I write a poem, it is an act of resistance to the state, the myriad hierarchies of control, and the human urge to conquer our natural surroundings." Found here: http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/article/238296 Gabe On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 3:15 PM, sheila black wrote: > > Gabriel: > > The Kinsella essay Connie sent IS wonderful. > > I like the idea of "moral energy" as opposed to "moral purpose."? I wonder if I resist consequentialist or utilitarian ethics because they seem to translate too much of what we experience into a recognizable economy of exchange and value, which is all very well, but robs from us a portion of eternity or the boundless.? I am not religious, but struck often the philosophical ideas (or make that artistic ideas) I am most attracted to seem precisely those than unmake the notion of "a rational economy."? For instance--art--if it has an economy at all--has more the economy of a wild dice throw or an act of sacrifice than one of "reasonable hourly work well and fairly paid."? Or maybe that is just because I am not very good at reasonable work. > > I have a similar resistance to pragmatic ethics (how do we know, say, science is looking at the right things?) but I suspect that is as much from childish willfulness as anything--like insisting on eating or drinking what I know is NOT good for me and being happy about it; ah, the pleasure of perversity in other words (and there is something perverse or at least spoiled in the pleasure of the pastoral); and empathy, which does seem to me & despite everything the most important thing, like being kind.? I am struck not only how difficult empathy is, how much it depends on a radical act of imagination, but also that we are usually only driven to true feats of empathy, such difficult acts of imagination, by some real and/or extraordinary pressure.? For instance, the way people will try very hard to figure out a beloved, poring over the most minor turns of phrase, the most innocuous statements.? Or how you might try very hard to imagine what an enemy might think or feel if you have one.? Or--to bring it back to animals--and why I started thinking about this--those beautiful? strange tender and deeply empathetic pictures of animals on the prehistoric walls of Lascaux, Chauvet, Pech Merle, etc--whose scrupulous accuracy and attention seems to derive finally from the pressure of need, hunger--pictures painted by hunters. And the added strangeness that if you can say one thing about humans it is that we are fundamentally--or distinguished by our being as--aesthetic creatures; and how must that complicate our claims to morality? > > I remember when I was reading a lot about disability at one point, completely drowning in David Hume and the other Enlightenment thinkers--who really wanted a way to create a taxonomy of beauty and deformity, a moral order to "fit within," how cheered I was by this (well-known) quote by Spinoza: "I would warn you that I do not attribute to nature either beauty or deformity, order or confusion.? Only in relation to our imagination can things be called beautiful or ugly, well-ordered or confused."? Which is--perhaps--something? like what you are getting at when you speak of "the moral energy to examine one's own perceived moral purpose." > > Anyway-- > > Cheers! > > Sheila > > > From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Fri Nov 4 13:32:20 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 10:32:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> ? --"'For me, poetry has no point in existing if it?s not to be a prompt or aid to political and ethical change.'" Bah. ?I've always found that sort of poetry the weakest. ? --"Here is a fellow being who feels, grieves, loves, wants, wishes, feels surprise, heartache, anger, disgust (and we know now that all mammals, and many vertebrates, feel these things too.)" Wishes? ?Feels disgust? ?All mammals? ?Are we talking science here? ?How does one measure wishes? ?"We discovered through careful research that the eastern mole wishes to see the ocean, and was both surprised and disgusted at Emily Dickinson's claim that she didn't have to see the sea to know what a wave must be." JohnJ >________________________________ >From: gabriel gudding >To: NewPoetry List >Sent: Friday, November 4, 2011 12:46 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > >Sheila, > >Thanks for your reply. I got very busy at work. In terms of beauty and >bodies, I often think of something sd or written by a theravadan >vipassana meditator named Thanissaro Bhikkhu. It was something like, >"The way we compare one body to another, one face to another, is >absolutely insane." This same inherently divisive thing we often do >with one another, is also what we do with animals. Here is a fellow >being who feels, grieves, loves, wants, wishes, feels surprise, >heartache, anger, disgust (and we know now that all mammals, and many >vertebrates, feel these things too) -- and yet we have no problem >enslaving it, putting it in stress positions, injecting it with >harmful toxins, and then killing and eating it. We have no problem >because we see it divisively in precisely the way mentioned above. > >Regarding encouraging and discouraging behaviors along right/wrong >dimensions: We can and do converge on moral issues often. Sometimes it >takes culture a long time to converge on moral issues. Spousal abuse: >wrong. Yet, a man hitting his wife was considered an okay thing to do >in 1950s Minnesota. Think how long it took Europe and the Americas to >outlaw slavery or to accord women and, in the States, >African-Americans the vote. Those were wrongs with moral, political, >and ethical dimensions, labeled as wrongs, that took far too long to >recognize and arrive at consensus about. There is a great article by >Michele Moody-Adams, a moral philosopher, in _Setting the Moral >Compass_ called "The Idea of Moral Progress," as to how progress in >moral understanding happens: > >http://tinyurl.com/3fw2fo4 > >I think there is something similar happening now in our treatment of a >newly seen Other: our fellow earthlings here with us inhabiting >different bodies. We think some of these bodies are composed only of >meat, while they also contain thoughts, languages, emotions, ideas -- >things we used to think only human. > >Re pragmatist ethics and science. I hear your concern. And I am taken >with neuroscientist and moral philosopher Sam Harris who suggests that >science already does help people see what is moral, and by moral he >merely means correctly valued knowledge about well-being. His >formulation goes something like this: morality already lies in the >realm of knowledge, not the realm of mere opinion or ritual or >labeling: "values are facts about the well-being of conscious >creatures" is how he gets there. I think it's compelling. There is a >western antipathy to seeing morality as something to do with >well-being. For Aristotle this wasn't a problem. > >And I agree that it is important for poetry/literature to have a >moral/ethical energy, or at least be a consideration into literature's >coming-into-being. Following Connie's Kinsella article, Ashley Capps >pointed me to another essay by Kinsella, in which he says, > >"For me, poetry has no point in existing if it?s not to be a prompt or >aid to political and ethical change. This is not to say that a poem >should be political or ethical instruction, but rather that it might >engender a dialogue between the poem itself and the reader / listener, >between itself and other poems and texts, and between all of these and >a broader public (whatever that might be). I see myself as a poet >activist?every time I write a poem, it is an act of resistance to the >state, the myriad hierarchies of control, and the human urge to >conquer our natural surroundings." > >Found here: > >http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/article/238296 > >Gabe > >On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 3:15 PM, sheila black wrote: >> >> Gabriel: >> >> The Kinsella essay Connie sent IS wonderful. >> >> I like the idea of "moral energy" as opposed to "moral purpose."? I wonder if I resist consequentialist or utilitarian ethics because they seem to translate too much of what we experience into a recognizable economy of exchange and value, which is all very well, but robs from us a portion of eternity or the boundless.? I am not religious, but struck often the philosophical ideas (or make that artistic ideas) I am most attracted to seem precisely those than unmake the notion of "a rational economy."? For instance--art--if it has an economy at all--has more the economy of a wild dice throw or an act of sacrifice than one of "reasonable hourly work well and fairly paid."? Or maybe that is just because I am not very good at reasonable work. >> >> I have a similar resistance to pragmatic ethics (how do we know, say, science is looking at the right things?) but I suspect that is as much from childish willfulness as anything--like insisting on eating or drinking what I know is NOT good for me and being happy about it; ah, the pleasure of perversity in other words (and there is something perverse or at least spoiled in the pleasure of the pastoral); and empathy, which does seem to me & despite everything the most important thing, like being kind.? I am struck not only how difficult empathy is, how much it depends on a radical act of imagination, but also that we are usually only driven to true feats of empathy, such difficult acts of imagination, by some real and/or extraordinary pressure.? For instance, the way people will try very hard to figure out a beloved, poring over the most minor turns of phrase, the most innocuous statements.? Or how you might try very hard to imagine what an enemy might think or feel if you have one.? Or--to bring it back to animals--and why I started thinking about this--those beautiful? strange tender and deeply empathetic pictures of animals on the prehistoric walls of Lascaux, Chauvet, Pech Merle, etc--whose scrupulous accuracy and attention seems to derive finally from the pressure of need, hunger--pictures painted by hunters. And the added strangeness that if you can say one thing about humans it is that we are fundamentally--or distinguished by our being as--aesthetic creatures; and how must that complicate our claims to morality? >> >> I remember when I was reading a lot about disability at one point, completely drowning in David Hume and the other Enlightenment thinkers--who really wanted a way to create a taxonomy of beauty and deformity, a moral order to "fit within," how cheered I was by this (well-known) quote by Spinoza: "I would warn you that I do not attribute to nature either beauty or deformity, order or confusion.? Only in relation to our imagination can things be called beautiful or ugly, well-ordered or confused."? Which is--perhaps--something? like what you are getting at when you speak of "the moral energy to examine one's own perceived moral purpose." >> >> Anyway-- >> >> Cheers! >> >> Sheila >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 13:49:56 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 12:49:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ?Me, quoting Kinsella: "'For me, poetry has no point in existing if it?s not to be a prompt or aid to political and ethical change.'" adding Kinsella's "This is not to say that a poem should be political or ethical instruction, but rather that it might engender a dialogue between the poem itself and the reader / listener, between itself and other poems and texts, and between all of these and a broader public (whatever that might be)." John: "Bah. ?I've always found that sort of poetry the weakest." Reply: _De Rerum Natura_, Lucretius. _The Divine Comedy_, Dante. Paradise Lost_, John Milton. _Jubilate Agno_, Christopher Smart. King James Version of the Bible. _Leaves of Grass_, Walt Whitman. Most of Dickinson's fascicles. The entire Pali Canon. _Fleurs Du Mal_, Baudelaire. _Notebook of a Return to the Native Land_, Aim? C?saire. _Ancestors_, Kamau Brathwaite. To name a few canonical examples in the space of 60 seconds. This, in fact, it appears, was, contrarily, a major dimension of what was chosen for inclusion in the canon. John: "Wishes? ?Feels disgust? ?All mammals? ?Are we talking science here? ?How does one measure wishes?" Yes, this is solid neuroscience. Neuroethologists and ethologists have been studying this since the 1960s. There is a fascinating podcast, below, about the politics behind funding debates in the neuroscience of animals that caused some scientists, even into the 1990s (and at least two key researchers today) to deny publicly what they admit privately. This is just one of many mainstream science sources on this stuff: Jaak Panksepp, PhD: author of Affective Neuroscience: The Foundations of Human and Animal Emotions, interviewed by Dr Ginger Campbell: http://www.brainsciencepodcast.com/bsp/2010/1/13/affective-neuroscience-with-jaak-panksepp-bsp-65.html Warmly, Gabe From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 13:57:55 2011 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 10:57:55 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: and cite a woman, gabe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 13:48:20 2011 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 10:48:20 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: empathy and compassion are two different ideas there are emotional and logical paths, but neither is the inclusive one, neither is exclusive you're gonna make a serious argument for rats, mosquitoes, lice, pigeons, e coli bacteria, and other animaux adapted, thriving, on human waste? rage against the machine wrote, no one hears the cries and screams of the carrots WROTE: no art is solely or completely emotional, logical, moral, ethical, empathetic, compassionate walk the walk to talk the talk, or just talk -- only everybody smart knows the difference, but lice don't know As for me, I don't buy into the great chain of being or rebirth up-the-food-chain, or caste and class systems (as much as possible, for a flawed being) -- but half of us people aren't living as well as half of cows, and are living for as short a time period inasmuch as I accept the responsibility not only to be living like a queen or goddess of yore, but also to write poems instead of running down the economy as a technologist and banker, to pursue a life of continual punishment instead of reward at the expense of others a person made allergic to all but meat, dairy, and asparagus (ick), but especially to all fruit, grain, vegetables (soy, corn, nightshades, crucifers, in particular) by the toxic waste dump they call Decatur, Illinois, I continually remember the time I spent in a buddhist monestery in Bodh Gaya, next to a rice paddy rife with vermin, across from a charnel ground, around the corner from the bo tree especially now I have cancer, high blood pressure, high cholesterol, the latter triggered by the anti-cancer drugs, not steak, butter, and cheese, three of the foods that don't put me into shock yeah, and I wear leather, too; when my Salt book came out, I queried Emery and Kinsella about it, knowing in one author photo I was wearing a leather jacket and in the other a suede shirt All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com poetry is about political and ethical change because it is poetry (i.e., poetry is about change and open to change or it is a reflexive narrative in form, IMHO) all the strict Jains die of starvation -- the space clad -- how do heliotropic plants know the sun? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Nov 4 14:06:00 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 14:06:00 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <14230664.1320429961138.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Gabe: You don't help your argument by quoting contested science or listing poets outside of context (and ignoring the other list--poets for whom these criteria don't apply). Actually, as to that list, it's padded anyway, or at the least distorts enormously many of those you cite. Context is all. And of course Kinsella's statement is so broad that it's virtually meaningless. I once asked Kinsella if his new pastoralism wasn't "farmyard red in tooth and claw" and little beyond, rather like DH Lawrence. He didn't answer. These labels are great career builders. As it happens he's written some fine poems and a lot of filler. Your argument is moral, which should be more than enough (though just a bit of situational morality might help). Appealing beyond that merely raises questions unnecessarily and begins to feel like a con job or a holy roller sermon, even if you believe your con. I'm not commenting on your vegetarianism, but about your way of arguing. Best, Mark -----Original Message----- >From: gabriel gudding >Sent: Nov 4, 2011 1:49 PM >To: NewPoetry List >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > >?Me, quoting Kinsella: "'For me, poetry has no point in existing if >it?s not to be a prompt or aid to political and ethical change.'" >adding Kinsella's "This is not to say that a poem should be political >or ethical instruction, but rather that it might engender a dialogue >between the poem itself and the reader / listener, between itself and >other poems and texts, and between all of these and a broader public >(whatever that might be)." >John: "Bah. ?I've always found that sort of poetry the weakest." > >Reply: _De Rerum Natura_, Lucretius. _The Divine Comedy_, Dante. >Paradise Lost_, John Milton. _Jubilate Agno_, Christopher Smart. King >James Version of the Bible. _Leaves of Grass_, Walt Whitman. Most of >Dickinson's fascicles. The entire Pali Canon. _Fleurs Du Mal_, >Baudelaire. _Notebook of a Return to the Native Land_, Aim? C?saire. >_Ancestors_, Kamau Brathwaite. To name a few canonical examples in the >space of 60 seconds. This, in fact, it appears, was, contrarily, a >major dimension of what was chosen for inclusion in the canon. > >John: "Wishes? ?Feels disgust? ?All mammals? ?Are we talking science >here? ?How does one measure wishes?" > >Yes, this is solid neuroscience. Neuroethologists and ethologists have >been studying this since the 1960s. There is a fascinating podcast, >below, about the politics behind funding debates in the neuroscience >of animals that caused some scientists, even into the 1990s (and at >least two key researchers today) to deny publicly what they admit >privately. This is just one of many mainstream science sources on this >stuff: > >Jaak Panksepp, PhD: author of Affective Neuroscience: The Foundations >of Human and Animal Emotions, interviewed by Dr Ginger Campbell: > >http://www.brainsciencepodcast.com/bsp/2010/1/13/affective-neuroscience-with-jaak-panksepp-bsp-65.html > >Warmly, >Gabe >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 14:11:01 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 13:11:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I went for canonical in the strictest, old-school sense, so that I would show that -- precisely from the center of the tradition that sees itself as threatened by ideas of non-meat-consumption (and here I'm thinking of Carol J Adam's _The Sexual Politics of Meat_), there wd be no question that moral considerations are intrinsic to what we've valued as literarily "worthy" to someone who was even on the far-right fringe of this question. I cited Dickinson and could go ahead and cite nearly every other woman who wrote in the 20thC. On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 12:57 PM, Catherine Daly wrote: > > and cite a woman, gabe > _______________________ From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Fri Nov 4 14:11:24 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 11:11:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Just a poem, if that's OK.... In-Reply-To: <1320354554.1558.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1320430284.85227.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ...wasn't reading the thread, Jeffrey had already mentioned the?Cook?U tube reading: here's more well cooked trivia ... http://www.palgrave.com/home/index.asp --- On Thu, 11/3/11, stephen russell wrote: From: stephen russell Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Just a poem, if that's OK.... To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 5:09 PM there's a great video of Matt Cook doing this one. --- On Thu, 11/3/11, John Jeffrey wrote: From: John Jeffrey Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Just a poem, if that's OK.... To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Thursday, November 3, 2011, 4:46 PM There's a funny YouTube video of him reading this. ?(It's from the PBS series, "The United States of Poetry.") I love his drag on the word "stuff" when he reads the line, "Then he started reading some of his sssssssssstuff." From: David Graham To: NewPoetry Sent: Thursday, November 3, 2011 2:34 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Just a poem, if that's OK.... A post of mine apparently went missing last night. ?Maybe it was eaten by Jim Finnegan?s laptop battery. ?Anyway, so that this isn?t merely a test message, here?s a poem for your instruction and delight. James Joyce James Joyce He was stupid He didn't know as much as me I'd rather throw dead batteries at cows Than read him Everything was going fine Before he came along He started the Civil War He tried to get the French involved But they wouldn't listen They filled him up with desserts He talked about all the great boxers That came from Ireland Like he trained 'em or something Then he started reading some of his stuff Right as we told him to get lost He brought up the potato famine We said "Your potatoes are plenty good. Deal with it! ?Work it out somehow!" Then he said "America must adopt the metric system. It's much more logical." ?We said "No ! We like our rulers! ?Go away!" Thomas Jefferson said, "You always get the rulers you deserve." --Matt Cook. ?In the Small of My Backyard. ?Manic D Press, 2002. -- ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 14:24:34 2011 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 11:24:34 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <14230664.1320429961138.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <14230664.1320429961138.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Sor Juana, Marie de France, Christine de Pisan, Sappho, Idhuanna: canonicity is, IMHO, related to content rather than form, *approved* content that reinforces the status quo. As does religion. Buddhism: all is suffering. Accept it. Do nothing. Christianity: we are all sinners from conception. Believe and wait for a "heavenly reward." More soon, Catherine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Fri Nov 4 14:25:53 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 14:25:53 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On Nov 4, 2011, at 12:46, gabriel gudding wrote: > Here is a fellow > being who feels, grieves, loves, wants, wishes, feels surprise, > heartache, anger, disgust (and we know now that all mammals, and many > vertebrates, feel these things too) If that's your idea of settled science, Gabriel, then your idea of settled science is very peculiar. Human consciousness is an unreliable belated commentary by one of many neural networks, usually in the left hemisphere, on what our bodies did or experienced just a moment ago, and there is very little evidence that any other animal does anything that remotely resembles that activity, that any other animal, with the possible exception of some chimpanzees and some crows, has a sense of self. That doesn't mean they don't feel injury, and it certainly doesn't mean that we should feel free to thoughtlessly and casually injure them. It does mean that "disgust," for example, is our name for a collection of physiological reactions when we're constructing a story about what just happened to the muscles in our intestinal tract and or faces and to our heart rate and about why we just had to look away - but those things happen whether or not there's a consciousness to associate and name them after the fact. The physical reaction is not the story we tell about it, and the story is the only place grief and love and the rest of your list exists. From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 14:43:28 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 13:43:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <14230664.1320429961138.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Catherine, Very sorry to hear about the cancer. I live 50 or so miles north of Decatur at the moment. ADM has done a number on Illinois (and many other places). Place is rife with various kinds of cancer. Lot of the corn and soy here is for ethanol, pigs, cows. Here, we all feel (least I feel this way) like we're all right around the corner from getting it. I'm not sure about those other kinds of animals you mention. Certainly a case is being made in science that all vertebrates share very similar kinds of emotion (given the variety of neurologies among animals). But generating compassion for even little creatures is a good thing, imo. Am mainly concerned for the ones being systematically slaughtered now. You mention empathy and compassion being different ideas. I think there are differences too. Important ones. I think I was using empathy because it has a longer association with aesthetics than compassion, and more resonant for a venue like this. The term/thing/activity "empathy" has come back as a subject/topic of debate in literature in the past ten years or so (Martha Nussbaum's been key in that), but stretches back, as I think I mentioned, to 19thC german empathy theorists (Einf?hlung - feeling into) -- it was hotly contested then too. I agree on the point of canonicity and approved content. I disagree on that point about buddhism (from what I understand of it, anyway, and am no expert and am certainly no buddhist): there is no fatalism, but a working very hard to help all beings. I studied Pali in grad school and read much of the Pali canon -- and there is no fatalism in that way of conceiving of any of the wholesome mental qualities associated with mental and moral cultivation. There's a really great book on this by Harvey Aronson called _Love and Sympathy in Theravada Buddhism_. Wish I knew more about Jainism. I do agree on the point re christianity (and other such systems that purport a celestial utopia): they institute a teleological suspension of the ethical (to corrupt a phrase). Gabe On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 1:24 PM, Catherine Daly wrote: > Sor Juana, Marie de France, Christine de Pisan, Sappho, Idhuanna: > ?canonicity is, IMHO, related to content rather than form, *approved* > content that reinforces the status quo. ?As does religion. ?Buddhism: all is > suffering. ?Accept it. ?Do nothing. ?Christianity: ?we are all sinners from > conception. ?Believe and wait for a "heavenly reward." > More soon, > Catherine > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Fri Nov 4 14:55:09 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 11:55:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1320432909.45220.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I would argue, though from a completely personal standpoint since I haven't spoken to Whitman recently, that many of the works you cite were not written "to be a prompt or aid to political and ethical change?[my emphasis]," though it seems you've thrown religious beliefs in the mix now, as well. ?(I wouldn't strictly equate religious belief with political and ethical--you gotta be careful about those absolutes.) ?Besides, many times--such as Paradise Lost--even if a poet is deeply religious or political and wants to write about it, if he is a good enough poet, then the poet in him gets in the way and tends to muddy the waters, which is for the better. And please don't expand scientific theories or "the study suggests" with actual confirmed findings. ?(You wrote, "we know now" [my emphasis].) ?Not to mention, I didn't question things like mammalian joy or playfulness. ?I was questioning the notion of scientific proof that all mammals express wishful thinking or disgust. ?Or read Dickinson. JohnJ >________________________________ >From: gabriel gudding >To: NewPoetry List >Sent: Friday, November 4, 2011 1:49 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > >?Me, quoting Kinsella: "'For me, poetry has no point in existing if >it?s not to be a prompt or aid to political and ethical change.'" >adding Kinsella's "This is not to say that a poem should be political >or ethical instruction, but rather that it might engender a dialogue >between the poem itself and the reader / listener, between itself and >other poems and texts, and between all of these and a broader public >(whatever that might be)." >John: "Bah. ?I've always found that sort of poetry the weakest." > >Reply: _De Rerum Natura_, Lucretius. _The Divine Comedy_, Dante. >Paradise Lost_, John Milton. _Jubilate Agno_, Christopher Smart. King >James Version of the Bible. _Leaves of Grass_, Walt Whitman. Most of >Dickinson's fascicles. The entire Pali Canon. _Fleurs Du Mal_, >Baudelaire. _Notebook of a Return to the Native Land_, Aim? C?saire. >_Ancestors_, Kamau Brathwaite. To name a few canonical examples in the >space of 60 seconds. This, in fact, it appears, was, contrarily, a >major dimension of what was chosen for inclusion in the canon. > >John: "Wishes? ?Feels disgust? ?All mammals? ?Are we talking science >here? ?How does one measure wishes?" > >Yes, this is solid neuroscience. Neuroethologists and ethologists have >been studying this since the 1960s. There is a fascinating podcast, >below, about the politics behind funding debates in the neuroscience >of animals that caused some scientists, even into the 1990s (and at >least two key researchers today) to deny publicly what they admit >privately. This is just one of many mainstream science sources on this >stuff: > >Jaak Panksepp, PhD: author of Affective Neuroscience: The Foundations >of Human and Animal Emotions, interviewed by Dr Ginger Campbell: > >http://www.brainsciencepodcast.com/bsp/2010/1/13/affective-neuroscience-with-jaak-panksepp-bsp-65.html > >Warmly, >Gabe >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Fri Nov 4 14:55:47 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 11:55:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1320432947.31379.YahooMailClassic@web161909.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Buddhism: all is > suffering. ?Accept it. ?Do nothing. ********************************************** ? What type of Buddism? Which school? No, it isn't all fatalism. There are many Buddist activist. Activist expect, or work towards results. --- On Fri, 11/4/11, gabriel gudding wrote: From: gabriel gudding Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Friday, November 4, 2011, 2:43 PM Catherine, Very sorry to hear about the cancer. I live 50 or so miles north of Decatur at the moment. ADM has done a number on Illinois (and many other places). Place is rife with various kinds of cancer. Lot of the corn and soy here is for ethanol, pigs, cows. Here, we all feel (least I feel this way) like we're all right around the corner from getting it. I'm not sure about those other kinds of animals you mention. Certainly a case is being made in science that all vertebrates share very similar kinds of emotion (given the variety of neurologies among animals). But generating compassion for even little creatures is a good thing, imo. Am mainly concerned for the ones being systematically slaughtered now. You mention empathy and compassion being different ideas. I think there are differences too. Important ones. I think I was using empathy because it has a longer association with aesthetics than compassion, and more resonant for a venue like this. The term/thing/activity "empathy" has come back as a subject/topic of debate in literature in the past ten years or so (Martha Nussbaum's been key in that), but stretches back, as I think I mentioned, to 19thC german empathy theorists (Einf?hlung - feeling into) -- it was hotly contested then too. I agree on the point of canonicity and approved content. I disagree on that point about buddhism (from what I understand of it, anyway, and am no expert and am certainly no buddhist): there is no fatalism, but a working very hard to help all beings. I studied Pali in grad school and read much of the Pali canon -- and there is no fatalism in that way of conceiving of any of the wholesome mental qualities associated with mental and moral cultivation. There's a really great book on this by Harvey Aronson called _Love and Sympathy in Theravada Buddhism_. Wish I knew more about Jainism. I do agree on the point re christianity (and other such systems that purport a celestial utopia): they institute a teleological suspension of the ethical (to corrupt a phrase). Gabe On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 1:24 PM, Catherine Daly wrote: > Sor Juana, Marie de France, Christine de Pisan, Sappho, Idhuanna: > ?canonicity is, IMHO, related to content rather than form, *approved* > content that reinforces the status quo. ?As does religion. ?Buddhism: all is > suffering. ?Accept it. ?Do nothing. ?Christianity: ?we are all sinners from > conception. ?Believe and wait for a "heavenly reward." > More soon, > Catherine > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Fri Nov 4 14:56:14 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 14:56:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] a sonnet about naming Message-ID: <011F4377-9F4A-45CF-B251-79C9E90D4A51@mikesnider.org> from Julia Alvarez Redwing Sonnets #1 He's carrying on with a distracting song this early morning while I'm revising a poem I've tried for years to make as strong as I'm able. I think he's a redwing blackbird -- but I'm not sure -- not having learned the little lore that comes from staying put long enough in a place to hear birdsong or to know what that whatchamacallit with a hanging thingamajig is called. I tell you, I think half the fun (or more) of being alive in the world is learning the names of things so there are no things at all left in the world, so that dying you know exactly what you are leaving behind. I love that "learning the names of things so there are no things at at all left in the world" From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 15:06:20 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 14:06:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <1320432909.45220.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1320432909.45220.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi John, Okay, to go with that one example: Whitman. Have you read Whitman's Preface to _Leaves of Grass_? It's kind of amazing. He is clearly articulating a moral/ethical, even a political, project. I'll quote some if I can find my Reynolds edition with my underlinings. :) On wishful thinking and disgust, well, Darwin was the first to really spell out his observations here, but a more recent one, at random, might be Mark Bekoff's _The Emotional Lives of Animals_. Bekoff's a world-renowned biologist who specializes in animal thought and emotion. Gabe On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 1:55 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: > I would argue, though from a completely personal standpoint since I haven't > spoken to Whitman recently, that many of the works you cite were not written > "to be a prompt or aid to political and ethical change?[my emphasis]," > though it seems you've thrown religious beliefs in the mix now, as well. ?(I > wouldn't strictly equate religious belief with political and ethical--you > gotta be careful about those absolutes.) ?Besides, many times--such as > Paradise Lost--even if a poet is deeply religious or political and wants to > write about it, if he is a good enough poet, then the poet in him gets in > the way and tends to muddy the waters, which is for the better. > And please don't expand scientific theories or "the study suggests" with > actual confirmed findings. ?(You wrote, "we know now" [my emphasis].) ?Not > to mention, I didn't question things like mammalian joy or playfulness. ?I > was questioning the notion of scientific proof that all mammals express > wishful thinking or disgust. ?Or read Dickinson. > JohnJ From jforjames at aol.com Fri Nov 4 15:02:48 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 15:02:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Flarf Orchestra Message-ID: <8CE693B7A5BE7B0-FD8-179F51@webmail-d164.sysops.aol.com> Drew Gardner's spontaneous conductions of improvised music played by indie rock, jazz and classical players fused with the outrageous poetry known as Flarf. http://flarforchestra.tumblr.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Fri Nov 4 15:11:01 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 12:11:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] a sonnet about naming In-Reply-To: <011F4377-9F4A-45CF-B251-79C9E90D4A51@mikesnider.org> References: <011F4377-9F4A-45CF-B251-79C9E90D4A51@mikesnider.org> Message-ID: <1320433861.57049.YahooMailNeo@web120524.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I like it! ?And anyone who can work "whatchamacallit" and "hanging thingamajig" into a sonnet is all right by me. >________________________________ >From: Michael Snider >To: New Poetry >Sent: Friday, November 4, 2011 2:56 PM >Subject: [New-Poetry] a sonnet about naming > > >from Julia Alvarez > > >Redwing Sonnets #1 > > >He's carrying on with a distracting song >this early morning while I'm revising >a poem I've tried for years to make as strong >as I'm able.? I think he's a redwing >blackbird -- but I'm not sure -- not having learned >the little lore that comes from staying put >long enough in a place to hear birdsong >or to know what that whatchamacallit >with a hanging thingamajig is called. >I tell you, I think half the fun (or more) >of being alive in the world is learning >the names of things so there are no things at all >left in the world, so that dying you know >exactly what you are leaving behind. > > >I love that "learning the names of things so there are no things at at all left in the world" >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 15:27:14 2011 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 12:27:14 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <14230664.1320429961138.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Yeah, a friend of mine was an Andreas -- they made their mansion on the poisoned lake a "bubble" for her because of her allergies -- and went to New York every weekend to hang out with the Rockefellers. The whole "we can end hunger now with soy" thing. We really have an Erin Brockovich case -- every woman I know from growing up (moms, peers) has cancer, graves disease, another very serious abdominal problem, or is dead. Our water bills used to have a printed warning that women and children were not to drink the water. Don't forget Staleys. It isn't all ADM in Soy City. In fact, it isn't mostly ADM. Hinduism is fatalist, and Buddhism springs from it. Activism -- and there is just as much liberation theology in Christianity as in other faiths -- is an add on. Mostly enlightenment era, and always very divisive vis a vis the elect and not. Then look back at syncretist (sp?) threads of the second generation religions; Tibetan Buddhism is nearly identical to 13th century Xianity (before Dante changed it). Dickenson and Whitman are famously not part of the great awakening. Deeply ethical thinkers? Perhaps, but not according to a single person of their times. Writing change. I am saying that poetry is not about the status quo and is a completely different equation (from canonicity, morality, status quo, others, beings). Since I'm arguing for poetry shackled to change, Dante, Whitman, Dickenson are great -- if relatively recent caucasian -- examples -- there's also the powerful Rothenburg ethnopoetics argument -- poems do things -- make change -- the religious texts we have ARE poems, and, thankfully, we treat them as such; now if we can just treat the other poems as poems, and the things parading as religious texts and/or poems as "other," we can get started I have a parrot -- I know tons of poets who have parrots -- Po (I wanted him to have a poet's name regardless of gender -- if female, would be Poe) -- anyhoo, he says "I love you," my name, Hello, Hi, and Hey, and the names of his favorite foods: meat, rice, and nuts. But as my husband pointed out, it is all a ploy to get food and affection. Po doesn't know my husband's name, and he only viciously bites me. He is more likely to tell me "I love you, Kasia" when he wants something. While he is more likely to say, "where's Kasia" than "where's meat" or "I love Kasia" than "I love rice," he says all those things (more often at meal times). These verbal animals -- who are flock animals -- who have a limited consciousness -- don't put it their consciousness in a language. Even the late great Pepperberg parrot and the chimps who can read, don't quite. Are they moral beings? Do they act against their interests? Do they make better art than chance makes? They don't poison the environment. In fact, they've learned to live off our poison. Just don't eat the catfish or clams from Lake Decatur. Or drink the water or breathe the air. Maybe only if you are a woman or child. Why are these equated? How many women and children have poisoned the environment? All best, Catherine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Nov 4 15:30:18 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 15:30:18 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <25968576.1320435019386.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Suppose it turns out (it does) that animals raised for slaughter but treated humanely live many times the lifespans of wild animals (which invariably die hideous, terrifying deaths and suffer the hideous, terrifying loss of herd or pack-mates) and with considerably less stress. And let's agree that humans aren't likely to keep large herds of animals alive and well as a charitable activity. Would that change your emphasis away from opposition to meat and towards compassionate treatment? What about vertebrates that don't feel grief? How about salmon? They don't mate, never know their parents or children. What about animals that are treated very well indeed by humans because they provide a renewable resource? I'm thinking about the traditional (and for many still current) diet of Mongolians, who live on land that, like a lot of the world's grazing land, would be a stretch to call arable. Diet: mare's milk mixed with mare's blood, but not so much milk that the foals don't survive and not so much blood that the mare is weakened. You like rice? Troubled by the enormous amounts of methane generated by paddy rice? Geez, it's a complex world. Back to humane treatment. While the species we consider edible would benefit greatly compared to their wild cousins, humane treatment in most cases would raise the cost of meat. I could afford the increase, and I strongly support humane treatment (there's been significant progress recently). Maybe the poor should become vegetarians. But maybe the most important thing to learn from this discussion, Gabe, is that you may not be changing many hearts and minds going on as you do. -----Original Message----- >From: gabriel gudding >Sent: Nov 4, 2011 3:06 PM >To: NewPoetry List >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > >Hi John, >Okay, to go with that one example: Whitman. Have you read Whitman's >Preface to _Leaves of Grass_? It's kind of amazing. He is clearly >articulating a moral/ethical, even a political, project. I'll quote >some if I can find my Reynolds edition with my underlinings. :) >On wishful thinking and disgust, well, Darwin was the first to really >spell out his observations here, but a more recent one, at random, >might be Mark Bekoff's _The Emotional Lives of Animals_. Bekoff's a >world-renowned biologist who specializes in animal thought and >emotion. >Gabe >On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 1:55 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: >> I would argue, though from a completely personal standpoint since I haven't >> spoken to Whitman recently, that many of the works you cite were not written >> "to be a prompt or aid to political and ethical change?[my emphasis]," >> though it seems you've thrown religious beliefs in the mix now, as well. ?(I >> wouldn't strictly equate religious belief with political and ethical--you >> gotta be careful about those absolutes.) ?Besides, many times--such as >> Paradise Lost--even if a poet is deeply religious or political and wants to >> write about it, if he is a good enough poet, then the poet in him gets in >> the way and tends to muddy the waters, which is for the better. >> And please don't expand scientific theories or "the study suggests" with >> actual confirmed findings. ?(You wrote, "we know now" [my emphasis].) ?Not >> to mention, I didn't question things like mammalian joy or playfulness. ?I >> was questioning the notion of scientific proof that all mammals express >> wishful thinking or disgust. ?Or read Dickinson. >> JohnJ >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From junction at earthlink.net Fri Nov 4 15:34:51 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 15:34:51 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <10617798.1320435292410.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 15:36:30 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 14:36:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1320432909.45220.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi John, Here are just a few of the things WW says in the Preface about the moral, ethical, and political role of poets: "The attitude of great poets is to cheer up slaves and horrify despots." "They [the poets] are of use ? they dissolve poverty from its need and riches from its conceit." "But folks expect of the poet to indicate more than the beauty and dignity which always attach to dumb real objects ? they expect him to indicate the path between reality and their souls." And he expressly attacks those who insist poetry is about mere aesthetics -- and he counters: "Who troubles himself about his ornaments or fluency is lost. This is what you shall do: Love the earth and sun and the animals, despise riches, give alms to every one that asks, stand up for the stupid and crazy, devote your income and labor to others, hate tyrants...." And as for it being settled science, here is the book that started it all, Darwin's of 1872: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Expression_of_the_Emotions_in_Man_and_Animals It is now considered settled science among biologists that many of our moral qualities, intellectual qualities, and emotional qualities are shared in the evolutionary record with other mammals. Darwin proposed six universal emotions shared among animals. And they've been nuanced and extended. It's actually everywhere in the literature now. Look at the 2003 compendium cited in the above article as the the currency to this day as evinced by the 130 year celebratory compilation of major modern responses and advancements to the observations Darwin published in 1872. Too, Bekoff's book is a fairly good compendium of the recent science for the layperson (which I trust we all are here, at least I am, and I've been reading about this since the spring) and has a good, extensive bibliography in the back that just touches the corner of the current literature out there on this. Gabe "I haven't >> spoken to Whitman recently, that many of the works you cite were not written >> "to be a prompt or aid to political and ethical change?[my emphasis]," From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Fri Nov 4 15:50:36 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 12:50:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <1320436236.54017.YahooMailClassic@web161915.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Below, the film Peter Singer wants everyone (Earthlings) to see -- ******************************************************************************** EARTHLINGS is an award-winning documentary film about the suffering of animals for food, fashion, pets, entertainment and medical research. Considered the most persuasive documentary ever made, EARTHLINGS is nicknamed ?the Vegan maker? for its sensitive footage shot at animal shelters, pet stores, puppy mills, factory farms, slaughterhouses, the leather and fur trades, sporting events, circuses and research labs. The film is narrated by Academy Award? nominee Joaquin Phoenix and features music by platinum-selling recording artist Moby. Initially ignored by distributors, today EARTHLINGS is considered the definitive animal rights film by organizations around the world. ?Of all the films I have ever made, this is the one that gets people talking the most,? said Phoenix. ?For every one person who sees --- On Fri, 11/4/11, gabriel gudding wrote: From: gabriel gudding Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Friday, November 4, 2011, 3:36 PM Hi John, Here are just a few of the things WW says in the Preface about the moral, ethical, and political role of poets: "The attitude of great poets is to cheer up slaves and horrify despots." "They [the poets] are of use ? they dissolve poverty from its need and riches from its conceit." "But folks expect of the poet to indicate more than the beauty and dignity which always attach to dumb real objects ? they expect him to indicate the path between reality and their souls." And he expressly attacks those who insist poetry is about mere aesthetics -- and he counters: "Who troubles himself about his ornaments or fluency is lost. This is what you shall do: Love the earth and sun and the animals, despise riches, give alms to every one that asks, stand up for the stupid and crazy, devote your income and labor to others, hate tyrants...." And as for it being settled science, here is the book that started it all, Darwin's of 1872: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Expression_of_the_Emotions_in_Man_and_Animals It is now considered settled science among biologists that many of our moral qualities, intellectual qualities, and emotional qualities are shared in the evolutionary record with other mammals. Darwin proposed six universal emotions shared among animals. And they've been nuanced and extended. It's actually everywhere in the literature now. Look at the 2003 compendium cited in the above article as the the currency to this day as evinced by the 130 year celebratory compilation of major modern responses and advancements to the observations Darwin published in 1872. Too, Bekoff's book is a fairly good compendium of the recent science for the layperson (which I trust we all are here, at least I am, and I've been reading about this since the spring) and has a good, extensive bibliography in the back that just touches the corner of the current literature out there on this. Gabe "I haven't >> spoken to Whitman recently, that many of the works you cite were not written >> "to be a prompt or aid to political and ethical change?[my emphasis]," _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Fri Nov 4 16:53:17 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 20:53:17 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, , , , , , <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Gabriel: I really appreciate the care and thought with which you reply to all these messages--and I am (I hope this doesn't sound smug or complacent because I really mean it utterly sincerely) kind of touched by how determined you are, how, in a way, self-confident you are about the need and desire to be ethical. I think that is rare and good--I also do think it does matter that one's life and art possess some kind of moral charge or energy-- and yet--and I think this is what John is getting at below--my own feeling would be--and maybe I am just older (think I am) and more jaded than you--that aesthetics--and, gulp ,experience--are always complicating what is ethical or how to decide what is ethical in real and perhaps unanswerable ways. I have been--and I really appreciate this!--puzzled and chagrined to some degree by my somewhat kneejerk reaction against much of what you are saying--which is not occurring on an ethical plane --you may be pleased that all this has actually made me STOP eating meat for the past three days--pathetic I know but something of a record for me who tends to be a steak, red wine, chocolate, cigarettes (though I did finally quit those), over-indulgent sort of person-- but is occurring rather on a sort of atavistic plane--a sort of instinctual "no, it isn't like that," or "no, that isn't enough," sort of level, and I have been trying to work out what that "no" means or what I mean by it. And I know part of it is just a sort of spoiled brat modern American punk rock kind of No--like "no, it is inconvenient for me to think that so I won't," but there is also more to it--and that more does tend to come in around the realm of art or art and its relationship to experience and imagination, which is simply, would I find a poem that espouses political ideas I believe in and only does that necessarily a good or necessary poem? The answer would obviously be no. Which, in turn, begs the question what do I consider necessary in a poem to make me think it good?--and I tend to think it is access to some different way of knowing or apprehending than I can encompass altogether rationally, logically, ethically even--can a concept of goodness exist that is not built on joyfulness? And what makes us joyful? Not always what makes us good--not that I think you want the goodness, the being ethical you are speaking of, to be a pale Sunday school sort of dutiful thing, but what do you do to encompass the diversity of desire--one's own or that of other people? Or the way in which most beings are not entirely rational, ethical, and so on. Is joy bad if the thing that gives it hurts someone-- however indirectly, for example, the joy of eating red meat? Or if I train myself out of that habit and become in the process less joyful have I become less good? Obviously, I am being a bit silly here--but I do think that sense of exceeding bounds is part of our goodness ("being in joy must be part of goodness--the exercise of the self) and what we seek in art when we say it is good (we often mean it is like magic, like exorcism, or moves beyond clear valuations of good, bad, right, wrong in ways that feel right or true to us--what to make of that feeling?) Certainly there is moral progress--and I would not argue with you remotely about the examples you cite; but there are also ways in which for every instant of progress there are also new forms of immorality and moral degradation, which we lie about, I think, if we are not rigorous about admitting the full complexity and/or range of our relationship with experience and desire. You say: Re pragmatist ethics and science. I hear your concern. And I am taken with neuroscientist and moral philosopher Sam Harris who suggests that science already does help people see what is moral, and by moral he merely means correctly valued knowledge about well-being. Maybe I am just neurotic but I see no means of correctly valuing knowledge about well-being--what makes me feel well or even what makes it possible for me to survive NOW might be bad for me down the line as to be "good" is certainly an aim of mine, but at a certain point too much "goodness" means ignoring (shades of Blake) or repressing (and letting fester) too much of what I authentically desire or even what I might be, (my "being") etcetera, etcetera, which is exactly the painful, relative ongoing process of mindfulness I tend to seek from art. No answers but in things (or moments) to paraphrase William Carlos Williams... or "How does one measure wishes?" to paraphrase John... But I am enjoying this discussion! Best, Sheila Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 10:32:20 -0700 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption --"'For me, poetry has no point in existing if it?s not to be a prompt or aid to political and ethical change.'" Bah. I've always found that sort of poetry the weakest. --"Here is a fellow being who feels, grieves, loves, wants, wishes, feels surprise, heartache, anger, disgust (and we know now that all mammals, and many vertebrates, feel these things too.)" Wishes? Feels disgust? All mammals? Are we talking science here? How does one measure wishes? "We discovered through careful research that the eastern mole wishes to see the ocean, and was both surprised and disgusted at Emily Dickinson's claim that she didn't have to see the sea to know what a wave must be." JohnJ From: gabriel gudding To: NewPoetry List Sent: Friday, November 4, 2011 12:46 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Sheila, Thanks for your reply. I got very busy at work. In terms of beauty and bodies, I often think of something sd or written by a theravadan vipassana meditator named Thanissaro Bhikkhu. It was something like, "The way we compare one body to another, one face to another, is absolutely insane." This same inherently divisive thing we often do with one another, is also what we do with animals. Here is a fellow being who feels, grieves, loves, wants, wishes, feels surprise, heartache, anger, disgust (and we know now that all mammals, and many vertebrates, feel these things too) -- and yet we have no problem enslaving it, putting it in stress positions, injecting it with harmful toxins, and then killing and eating it. We have no problem because we see it divisively in precisely the way mentioned above. Regarding encouraging and discouraging behaviors along right/wrong dimensions: We can and do converge on moral issues often. Sometimes it takes culture a long time to converge on moral issues. Spousal abuse: wrong. Yet, a man hitting his wife was considered an okay thing to do in 1950s Minnesota. Think how long it took Europe and the Americas to outlaw slavery or to accord women and, in the States, African-Americans the vote. Those were wrongs with moral, political, and ethical dimensions, labeled as wrongs, that took far too long to recognize and arrive at consensus about. There is a great article by Michele Moody-Adams, a moral philosopher, in _Setting the Moral Compass_ called "The Idea of Moral Progress," as to how progress in moral understanding happens: http://tinyurl.com/3fw2fo4 I think there is something similar happening now in our treatment of a newly seen Other: our fellow earthlings here with us inhabiting different bodies. We think some of these bodies are composed only of meat, while they also contain thoughts, languages, emotions, ideas -- things we used to think only human. Re pragmatist ethics and science. I hear your concern. And I am taken with neuroscientist and moral philosopher Sam Harris who suggests that science already does help people see what is moral, and by moral he merely means correctly valued knowledge about well-being. His formulation goes something like this: morality already lies in the realm of knowledge, not the realm of mere opinion or ritual or labeling: "values are facts about the well-being of conscious creatures" is how he gets there. I think it's compelling. There is a western antipathy to seeing morality as something to do with well-being. For Aristotle this wasn't a problem. And I agree that it is important for poetry/literature to have a moral/ethical energy, or at least be a consideration into literature's coming-into-being. Following Connie's Kinsella article, Ashley Capps pointed me to another essay by Kinsella, in which he says, "For me, poetry has no point in existing if it?s not to be a prompt or aid to political and ethical change. This is not to say that a poem should be political or ethical instruction, but rather that it might engender a dialogue between the poem itself and the reader / listener, between itself and other poems and texts, and between all of these and a broader public (whatever that might be). I see myself as a poet activist?every time I write a poem, it is an act of resistance to the state, the myriad hierarchies of control, and the human urge to conquer our natural surroundings." Found here: http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/article/238296 Gabe On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 3:15 PM, sheila black wrote: > > Gabriel: > > The Kinsella essay Connie sent IS wonderful. > > I like the idea of "moral energy" as opposed to "moral purpose." I wonder if I resist consequentialist or utilitarian ethics because they seem to translate too much of what we experience into a recognizable economy of exchange and value, which is all very well, but robs from us a portion of eternity or the boundless. I am not religious, but struck often the philosophical ideas (or make that artistic ideas) I am most attracted to seem precisely those than unmake the notion of "a rational economy." For instance--art--if it has an economy at all--has more the economy of a wild dice throw or an act of sacrifice than one of "reasonable hourly work well and fairly paid." Or maybe that is just because I am not very good at reasonable work. > > I have a similar resistance to pragmatic ethics (how do we know, say, science is looking at the right things?) but I suspect that is as much from childish willfulness as anything--like insisting on eating or drinking what I know is NOT good for me and being happy about it; ah, the pleasure of perversity in other words (and there is something perverse or at least spoiled in the pleasure of the pastoral); and empathy, which does seem to me & despite everything the most important thing, like being kind. I am struck not only how difficult empathy is, how much it depends on a radical act of imagination, but also that we are usually only driven to true feats of empathy, such difficult acts of imagination, by some real and/or extraordinary pressure. For instance, the way people will try very hard to figure out a beloved, poring over the most minor turns of phrase, the most innocuous statements. Or how you might try very hard to imagine what an enemy might think or feel if you have one. Or--to bring it back to animals--and why I started thinking about this--those beautiful strange tender and deeply empathetic pictures of animals on the prehistoric walls of Lascaux, Chauvet, Pech Merle, etc--whose scrupulous accuracy and attention seems to derive finally from the pressure of need, hunger--pictures painted by hunters. And the added strangeness that if you can say one thing about humans it is that we are fundamentally--or distinguished by our being as--aesthetic creatures; and how must that complicate our claims to morality? > > I remember when I was reading a lot about disability at one point, completely drowning in David Hume and the other Enlightenment thinkers--who really wanted a way to create a taxonomy of beauty and deformity, a moral order to "fit within," how cheered I was by this (well-known) quote by Spinoza: "I would warn you that I do not attribute to nature either beauty or deformity, order or confusion. Only in relation to our imagination can things be called beautiful or ugly, well-ordered or confused." Which is--perhaps--something like what you are getting at when you speak of "the moral energy to examine one's own perceived moral purpose." > > Anyway-- > > Cheers! > > Sheila > > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 17:39:43 2011 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 14:39:43 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <10617798.1320435292410.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <10617798.1320435292410.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: The rich and the poor are vegetarians -- half by choice, half by economics. More than half of those vegetarians are women and children. Wait in line at an inexpensive grocery store or a green market/farm to table delivery... (really pricey) anywhere -- the moms paying with food stamps are buying root vegetables because they are nutritious and cheap, making beans and rice, shop at the dollar store for food, not tchotchkes. Maybe there's another Hollywood wife who shops at the dollar store -- I got into the habit when I bought and made food for my sister and me when I was twelve and working as a car hop at a root beer stand without a work permit, serving the so-called "welfare queens" who were just pimped kids my age. On check Fridays, french fries and onion rings (and root beer) -- vegans! Thanx RR. Take my Pell grants and stuff them. I like Kinsella, lots of his poems, and a lot of his larger creative activity. I'm not a recovering sheep farmer or heroin addict. But life as a being is such a struggle and a suffering, even if one is born into the richest and safest and cleanest place (as I have been born into), and can make things and change things -- all that power -- What I like about B'ism is "earth to witness" -- not preaching, going door to door, etc. -- this guy who was a wretched s.o.b. who abandoned his wife and son (oh, but in the 600s there were two other guys who did that -- only one called his son "fetter" -- all of hem discarded their female partners --) -- in the largest sense I care about the food we eat, the places we live in, our clothing, and our art -- but I try very, very hard not to visit my shit on other beings, and gosh, I remember the last lobster I had -- have pics -- had hives, too -- it is not screaming, it is steam -- what has this to do with writing? everything -- how many women are part of this discourse? does e know a race -- is it ecumenical? On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 12:34 PM, wrote: > All women and children poison the environment, they're just not as good at > it (for the past three centuries or so) as men are. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 19:15:33 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 00:15:33 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Soon Ah Willl Be Done and other songs Message-ID: http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/2011/11/soon-ah-will-be-done-more.html -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Nov 5 10:09:05 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 07:09:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <1320502145.77033.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Wouldn't it be fair to say that non-human animals feel pain? They lack the cognitive software called language. They can't tell us what they feel. But when we see a dog wag its tail, we can at least infer that the animal isn't angry or fearful. Animals have a nervous system. Beat them and they will show their discomfort. This be neurologically tested. Although such a test is absurd. We know when a fellow creature (human or non-human) is feeling pain. Has anyone on the list seriously looked into this matter aside from Gabriel Gudding? Again, Peter Singer, one of the most distinguished philosophers in this country has been writing about animal rights for years. --- On Fri, 11/4/11, Michael Snider wrote: From: Michael Snider Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Friday, November 4, 2011, 2:25 PM On Nov 4, 2011, at 12:46, gabriel gudding wrote: >? Here is a fellow > being who feels, grieves, loves, wants, wishes, feels surprise, > heartache, anger, disgust (and we know now that all mammals, and many > vertebrates, feel these things too) If that's your idea of settled science, Gabriel, then your idea of settled science is very peculiar. Human consciousness is an unreliable belated commentary by one of many neural networks, usually in the left hemisphere, on what our bodies did or experienced just a moment ago, and there is very little evidence that any other animal does anything that remotely resembles that activity, that any other animal, with the possible exception of some chimpanzees and some crows, has a sense of self. That doesn't mean they don't feel injury, and it certainly doesn't mean that we should feel free to thoughtlessly and casually injure them. It does mean that "disgust," for example, is our name for a collection of physiological reactions when we're constructing a story about what just happened to the muscles in our intestinal tract and or faces and to our heart rate and about why we just had to look away - but those things happen whether or not there's a consciousness to associate and name them after the fact. The physical reaction is not the story we tell about it, and the story is the only place grief and love and the rest of your list exists. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 10:24:54 2011 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 10:24:54 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why I am a Conscientious Objector in the Digital Revolution Message-ID: Howdy, NewPo folks, I've been blogging again for a while now. And I just posted a new piece about ebooks. I thought some of you might want to read it and perhaps drop a comment: http://www.jeffnewberry.com/1/post/2011/11/a-conscientous-objector-in-the-digital-revolution.html Thanks! Best, Jeff Newberry -- Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and lived syncopation. ?Yusef Komunyakaa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 5 11:04:07 2011 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 08:04:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] trying to get in touch with Macgregor Card Message-ID: <1320505447.13514.YahooMailNeo@web160101.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi NewPos, I'm trying to get in touch with Macgregor Card, who happens to be the least electronically-oriented poet I've ever met; my emails are not getting through to him, which is a shame, since I have a very long and ambitious review of his book sitting here on my computer, and he has no idea that I do, to my knowledge. Anyone who might get through to him for me, or help me reach him? Thanks -- Amicalement, Alex ? www.alexdickow.net/blog/ ? les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 11:04:06 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 09:04:06 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why I am a Conscientious Objector in the Digital Revolution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just read that, Jeff, but it doesn't sound like you're really a conscientious objector. Mixed feelings, yeah. And who wouldn't rather stroke the neck of a fine horse than the fender of a fine car? You're way ahead of me in some respects: no Kindle in the house yet, not even a smart phone. We've got phones, but they're all dumb ones, and Lynda gets along with them much better than I do. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 8:24 AM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > Howdy, NewPo folks, > > I've been blogging again for a while now. And I just posted a new piece > about ebooks. I thought some of you might want to read it and perhaps drop > a comment: > > > http://www.jeffnewberry.com/1/post/2011/11/a-conscientous-objector-in-the-digital-revolution.html > > Thanks! > > Best, > Jeff Newberry > > -- > Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics > embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and > lived syncopation. ?Yusef Komunyakaa > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sat Nov 5 11:05:41 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 11:05:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <8668366.1320505542087.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 11:23:36 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 16:23:36 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Why I am a Conscientious Objector in the Digital Revolution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I just miss a lot of time to read all the books I have piled up and the .pdf files I keep on storing everywhere... Too much might be too much... On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 4:04 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Just read that, Jeff, but it doesn't sound like you're really a > conscientious objector. Mixed feelings, yeah. And who wouldn't rather > stroke the neck of a fine horse than the fender of a fine car? You're way > ahead of me in some respects: no Kindle in the house yet, not even a smart > phone. We've got phones, but they're all dumb ones, and Lynda gets along > with them much better than I do. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 8:24 AM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > >> Howdy, NewPo folks, >> >> I've been blogging again for a while now. And I just posted a new piece >> about ebooks. I thought some of you might want to read it and perhaps drop >> a comment: >> >> >> http://www.jeffnewberry.com/1/post/2011/11/a-conscientous-objector-in-the-digital-revolution.html >> >> Thanks! >> >> Best, >> Jeff Newberry >> >> -- >> Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics >> embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and >> lived syncopation. ?Yusef Komunyakaa >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Sat Nov 5 11:47:43 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 10:47:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Duhamel-Seaton Exercise In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4EB55A9F.8070809@louisiana.edu> There's an article in today's NY Times online by Fernanda Santos treating a visit by Denise Duhamel and Maura Seaton to the Horace Mann School in the Bronx, in which an exercise they did with the students went wrong. In characteristic NY Times form, the article leaves out almost everything interesting to this list--what were the words used, what were the specific responses of the students, etc. I'm appending the first few paragraphs of the article, but I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who knows about this incident in more detail (I'm a big fan of Duhamel, and often use her collaborative poems with Seaton in my classes). And by the way, the article goes on to say that Duhamel and Seaton were seated behind the microphone the student poems were being read at, so they couldn't hear the offensive language being used. Jerry STUDENTS REPEAT A POEM'S SLURS, SURPRISING THE POETS AND AN ELITE BRONX SCHOOL The poetry assembly on Tuesday morning at the Horace Mann School , in the Bronx, was meant to be provocative. The visiting poets who led it asked students to write words on index cards --- remembrances, colors and references to pop-culture icons --- that would then converge as poems. The poets had set the tone for the exercise by reading a poem they had written together, which uses startling, offensive language and has in its first three lines the harshest slurs against blacks and gays. The same slurs emerged on the cards, written by students in anonymity, then read out loud by peers who picked the cards at random from a pile stacked on a desk. The reading went on uninterrupted for 30 minutes at least, one of the poets, Denise Duhamel , recalled in an interview on Friday. According to articles published on Friday in the school's newspaper, The Horace Mann Record, it set off a mix of disconcerted laughter, confusion and, most of all, soul-searching among teachers and the 700 students in the audience at first, and then throughout the school. By Tuesday afternoon, David Schiller, the head of the school's upper division, had visited many classrooms, apologizing. Dr. Schiller declined to comment, beyond providing a letter he sent to parents on Thursday, in which he took the blame for what had happened. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From mykelmarsh at comcast.net Sat Nov 5 13:37:17 2011 From: mykelmarsh at comcast.net (mykelmarsh at comcast.net) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 17:37:17 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [New-Poetry] Duhamel-Seaton Exercise In-Reply-To: <4EB55A9F.8070809@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <1845145626.1404033.1320514637903.JavaMail.root@sz0153a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Whether we like it or not these words are some of the most powerful words in our language, because we will not face up to the fact that we live in a culture that has closed down the discussion of the hard issues of racism and fear of the other. We live in a deeply divided and conflicted nation, but mostly unless something specific comes up, we go about our lives ignoring the fact that racism and homophobia exist even in those who consider themselves open minded. Fear of the other is embedded in our cultural DNA so deeply that we can't recognize it anymore except in those words. They are the doorways to a truth we would rather not visit. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jerry McGuire" To: "NewPoetry List" Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 8:47:43 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Duhamel-Seaton Exercise There's an article in today's NY Times online by Fernanda Santos treating a visit by Denise Duhamel and Maura Seaton to the Horace Mann School in the Bronx, in which an exercise they did with the students went wrong. In characteristic NY Times form, the article leaves out almost everything interesting to this list--what were the words used, what were the specific responses of the students, etc. I'm appending the first few paragraphs of the article, but I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who knows about this incident in more detail (I'm a big fan of Duhamel, and often use her collaborative poems with Seaton in my classes). And by the way, the article goes on to say that Duhamel and Seaton were seated behind the microphone the student poems were being read at, so they couldn't hear the offensive language being used. Jerry STUDENTS REPEAT A POEM'S SLURS, SURPRISING THE POETS AND AN ELITE BRONX SCHOOL The poetry assembly on Tuesday morning at the Horace Mann School , in the Bronx, was meant to be provocative. The visiting poets who led it asked students to write words on index cards ? remembrances, colors and references to pop-culture icons ? that would then converge as poems. The poets had set the tone for the exercise by reading a poem they had written together, which uses startling, offensive language and has in its first three lines the harshest slurs against blacks and gays. The same slurs emerged on the cards, written by students in anonymity, then read out loud by peers who picked the cards at random from a pile stacked on a desk. The reading went on uninterrupted for 30 minutes at least, one of the poets, Denise Duhamel , recalled in an interview on Friday. According to articles published on Friday in the school?s newspaper, The Horace Mann Record, it set off a mix of disconcerted laughter, confusion and, most of all, soul-searching among teachers and the 700 students in the audience at first, and then throughout the school. By Tuesday afternoon, David Schiller, the head of the school?s upper division, had visited many classrooms, apologizing. Dr. Schiller declined to comment, beyond providing a letter he sent to parents on Thursday, in which he took the blame for what had happened. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 14:01:59 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 12:01:59 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Duhamel-Seaton Exercise In-Reply-To: <1845145626.1404033.1320514637903.JavaMail.root@sz0153a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <4EB55A9F.8070809@louisiana.edu> <1845145626.1404033.1320514637903.JavaMail.root@sz0153a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: And here's a link to the entire article for anyone interested: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/05/nyregion/horace-mann-students-repeat-poets-slurs-to-schools-dismay.html?ref=nyregion Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 11:37 AM, wrote: > Whether we like it or not these words are some of the most powerful words > in our language, because we will not face up to the fact that we live in a > culture that has closed down the discussion of the hard issues of racism > and fear of the other. We live in a deeply divided and conflicted nation, > but mostly unless something specific comes up, we go about our lives > ignoring the fact that racism and homophobia exist even in those who > consider themselves open minded. Fear of the other is embedded in our > cultural DNA so deeply that we can't recognize it anymore except in those > words. They are the doorways to a truth we would rather not visit. > > ------------------------------ > *From: *"Jerry McGuire" > *To: *"NewPoetry List" > *Sent: *Saturday, November 5, 2011 8:47:43 AM > *Subject: *[New-Poetry] Duhamel-Seaton Exercise > > There's an article in today's NY Times online by Fernanda Santos treating > a visit by Denise Duhamel and Maura Seaton to the Horace Mann School in > the Bronx, in which an exercise they did with the students went wrong. In > characteristic NY Times form, the article leaves out almost everything > interesting to this list--what were the words used, what were the specific > responses of the students, etc. I'm appending the first few paragraphs of > the article, but I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who knows about this > incident in more detail (I'm a big fan of Duhamel, and often use her > collaborative poems with Seaton in my classes). > > And by the way, the article goes on to say that Duhamel and Seaton were > seated behind the microphone the student poems were being read at, so they > couldn't hear the offensive language being used. > > Jerry > > > STUDENTS REPEAT A POEM'S SLURS, SURPRISING THE POETS AND AN ELITE BRONX > SCHOOL > > > The poetry assembly on Tuesday morning at the Horace Mann School, > in the Bronx, was meant to be provocative. The visiting poets who led it > asked students to write words on index cards ? remembrances, colors and > references to pop-culture icons ? that would then converge as poems. > > The poets had set the tone for the exercise by reading a poem they had > written together, which uses startling, offensive language and has in its > first three lines the harshest slurs against blacks and gays. The same > slurs emerged on the cards, written by students in anonymity, then read out > loud by peers who picked the cards at random from a pile stacked on a desk. > > The reading went on uninterrupted for 30 minutes at least, one of the > poets, Denise Duhamel , recalled > in an interview on Friday. According to articles published on Friday in the > school?s newspaper, The Horace Mann Record, it set off a mix of > disconcerted laughter, confusion and, most of all, soul-searching among > teachers and the 700 students in the audience at first, and then throughout > the school. > > By Tuesday afternoon, David Schiller, the head of the school?s upper > division, had visited many classrooms, apologizing. Dr. Schiller declined > to comment, beyond providing a letter he sent to parents on Thursday, in > which he took the blame for what had happened. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Sat Nov 5 14:16:35 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 11:16:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Duhamel-Seaton Exercise In-Reply-To: References: <4EB55A9F.8070809@louisiana.edu> <1845145626.1404033.1320514637903.JavaMail.root@sz0153a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <1320516995.17040.YahooMailNeo@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Akin to telling kids before the film in sex ed class not to laugh at certain images or make jokes about "dicks" and "pussies" later. ? ?"Here are some 'bad' words; now don't use them the way you've already been using them." ? ? Amy? ********* Amy's Alias +?http://amyking.org/? ******** ________________________________ From: Halvard Johnson And here's a link to the entire article for anyone interested: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/05/nyregion/horace-mann-students-repeat-poets-slurs-to-schools-dismay.html?ref=nyregion -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Sat Nov 5 14:26:48 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 14:26:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <1320502145.77033.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1320502145.77033.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Pain, of course. But not the sense that "I" am suffering, because no other animal has a self-model, a sense of selfhood (http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Self_models). Associations between particular situations/events and their frequently experienced sequlae, yes, but not "oh boy, it's that nice woman who feeds me"; no "if I wag my tail he'll know I want to be friends": only a creature with a self model can do those things, and that means only humans, at least on this planet. www.mikesnider.org On Nov 5, 2011, at 10:09, stephen russell wrote: > > Wouldn't it be fair to say that non-human animals feel pain? They lack the cognitive software called language. They can't tell us what they feel. But when we see a dog wag its tail, we can at least infer that the animal isn't angry or fearful. Animals have a nervous system. Beat them and they will show their discomfort. This be neurologically tested. Although such a test is absurd. We know when a fellow creature (human or non-human) is feeling pain. > > Has anyone on the list seriously looked into this matter aside from Gabriel Gudding? Again, Peter Singer, one of the most distinguished philosophers in this country has been writing about animal rights for years. > > --- On Fri, 11/4/11, Michael Snider wrote: > > From: Michael Snider > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Friday, November 4, 2011, 2:25 PM > > > On Nov 4, 2011, at 12:46, gabriel gudding wrote: > > > Here is a fellow > > being who feels, grieves, loves, wants, wishes, feels surprise, > > heartache, anger, disgust (and we know now that all mammals, and many > > vertebrates, feel these things too) > > If that's your idea of settled science, Gabriel, then your idea of settled science is very peculiar. > > Human consciousness is an unreliable belated commentary by one of many neural networks, usually in the left hemisphere, on what our bodies did or experienced just a moment ago, and there is very little evidence that any other animal does anything that remotely resembles that activity, that any other animal, with the possible exception of some chimpanzees and some crows, has a sense of self. That doesn't mean they don't feel injury, and it certainly doesn't mean that we should feel free to thoughtlessly and casually injure them. > > It does mean that "disgust," for example, is our name for a collection of physiological reactions when we're constructing a story about what just happened to the muscles in our intestinal tract and or faces and to our heart rate and about why we just had to look away - but those things happen whether or not there's a consciousness to associate and name them after the fact. The physical reaction is not the story we tell about it, and the story is the only place grief and love and the rest of your list exists. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 14:29:50 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 12:29:50 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <1320502145.77033.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I've yet to see a human wags its tail. (No rude ripostes, por favor.) Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Michael Snider wrote: > Pain, of course. But not the sense that "I" am suffering, because no > other animal has a self-model, a sense of selfhood ( > http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Self_models). Associations between > particular situations/events and their frequently experienced sequlae, yes, > but not "oh boy, it's that nice woman who feeds me"; no "if I wag my tail > he'll know I want to be friends": only a creature with a self model can do > those things, and that means only humans, at least on this planet. > > > > www.mikesnider.org > > On Nov 5, 2011, at 10:09, stephen russell > wrote: > > Wouldn't it be fair to say that non-human animals feel pain? They lack the > cognitive software called language. They can't tell us what they feel. But > when we see a dog wag its tail, we can at least infer that the animal isn't > angry or fearful. Animals have a nervous system. Beat them and they will > show their discomfort. This be neurologically tested. Although such a test > is absurd. We know when a fellow creature (human or non-human) is feeling > pain. > > Has anyone on the list seriously looked into this matter aside from > Gabriel Gudding? Again, Peter Singer, one of the most distinguished > philosophers in this country has been writing about animal rights for > years. > > --- On *Fri, 11/4/11, Michael Snider * wrote: > > > From: Michael Snider > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Friday, November 4, 2011, 2:25 PM > > > On Nov 4, 2011, at 12:46, gabriel gudding > wrote: > > > Here is a fellow > > being who feels, grieves, loves, wants, wishes, feels surprise, > > heartache, anger, disgust (and we know now that all mammals, and many > > vertebrates, feel these things too) > > If that's your idea of settled science, Gabriel, then your idea of settled > science is very peculiar. > > Human consciousness is an unreliable belated commentary by one of many > neural networks, usually in the left hemisphere, on what our bodies did or > experienced just a moment ago, and there is very little evidence that any > other animal does anything that remotely resembles that activity, that any > other animal, with the possible exception of some chimpanzees and some > crows, has a sense of self. That doesn't mean they don't feel injury, and > it certainly doesn't mean that we should feel free to thoughtlessly and > casually injure them. > > It does mean that "disgust," for example, is our name for a collection of > physiological reactions when we're constructing a story about what just > happened to the muscles in our intestinal tract and or faces and to our > heart rate and about why we just had to look away - but those things happen > whether or not there's a consciousness to associate and name them after the > fact. The physical reaction is not the story we tell about it, and the > story is the only place grief and love and the rest of your list exists. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 14:30:26 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 12:30:26 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <1320502145.77033.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: There should be a that there. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 12:29 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > I've yet to see a human wags its tail. (No rude ripostes, por favor.) > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Michael Snider wrote: > >> Pain, of course. But not the sense that "I" am suffering, because no >> other animal has a self-model, a sense of selfhood ( >> http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Self_models). Associations between >> particular situations/events and their frequently experienced sequlae, yes, >> but not "oh boy, it's that nice woman who feeds me"; no "if I wag my tail >> he'll know I want to be friends": only a creature with a self model can do >> those things, and that means only humans, at least on this planet. >> >> >> >> www.mikesnider.org >> >> On Nov 5, 2011, at 10:09, stephen russell >> wrote: >> >> Wouldn't it be fair to say that non-human animals feel pain? They lack >> the cognitive software called language. They can't tell us what they feel. >> But when we see a dog wag its tail, we can at least infer that the animal >> isn't angry or fearful. Animals have a nervous system. Beat them and they >> will show their discomfort. This be neurologically tested. Although such a >> test is absurd. We know when a fellow creature (human or non-human) is >> feeling pain. >> >> Has anyone on the list seriously looked into this matter aside from >> Gabriel Gudding? Again, Peter Singer, one of the most distinguished >> philosophers in this country has been writing about animal rights for >> years. >> >> --- On *Fri, 11/4/11, Michael Snider * wrote: >> >> >> From: Michael Snider >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >> To: "NewPoetry List" >> Date: Friday, November 4, 2011, 2:25 PM >> >> >> On Nov 4, 2011, at 12:46, gabriel gudding >> wrote: >> >> > Here is a fellow >> > being who feels, grieves, loves, wants, wishes, feels surprise, >> > heartache, anger, disgust (and we know now that all mammals, and many >> > vertebrates, feel these things too) >> >> If that's your idea of settled science, Gabriel, then your idea of >> settled science is very peculiar. >> >> Human consciousness is an unreliable belated commentary by one of many >> neural networks, usually in the left hemisphere, on what our bodies did or >> experienced just a moment ago, and there is very little evidence that any >> other animal does anything that remotely resembles that activity, that any >> other animal, with the possible exception of some chimpanzees and some >> crows, has a sense of self. That doesn't mean they don't feel injury, and >> it certainly doesn't mean that we should feel free to thoughtlessly and >> casually injure them. >> >> It does mean that "disgust," for example, is our name for a collection of >> physiological reactions when we're constructing a story about what just >> happened to the muscles in our intestinal tract and or faces and to our >> heart rate and about why we just had to look away - but those things happen >> whether or not there's a consciousness to associate and name them after the >> fact. The physical reaction is not the story we tell about it, and the >> story is the only place grief and love and the rest of your list exists. >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Nov 5 14:31:08 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 11:31:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <8668366.1320505542087.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1320517868.20118.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> "We rightly decry the ill-treatment of animals we live with, though we castrate or spay them." Yes -- ... & (we) treat them as what ... family? ... infants without existential choice ... we seem to value our domesticated pets for any number of sentimental reasons ... You make a fine distinction between disposable, & non-disposable incomes ... in many parts of the world, food is not a luxury -- "Those who drown them don't see themselves as having much choice in the matter." Exactly. Extreme poverty ... food is not a luxury ... some people have to eat to stay alive ... food is not merely a matter of pleasure in these sort of circumstances ... Ditto your last paragraph ... & I agree ... " Wouldn't it be nice if these folks were well-enough fed that they could consider becoming vegetarians?" It would be nice. Which is to say, if one doesn't live in a place where food is a matter of pleasure, it's senseless to discuss veg vs. non-veg ... it only applies to wealthy countries. --- On Sat, 11/5/11, junction at earthlink.net wrote: From: junction at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 11:05 AM #yiv1689396156 body{font-family:Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:9pt;background-color:#ffffff;color:black;}#yiv1689396156 body{font-family:Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:9pt;background-color:#ffffff;color:black;}These are rather smaller claims. And of course obviously true. But this begs all sorts of questions. For instance, in places where there's disposable income the predators we keep as pets lead far more comfortable and longer lives than they would in the wilds, but at an obvious cost, if we imagine wolves, say, valuing their wildness, or dogs valuing reproductive freedom and the social structure of the pack. But even this is difficult to generalize about. Hiking in the mountains of Guatemala I came upon a toddler dangling from her hand what I took to be a doll or a stuffed animal until I got close enough to see that it was a dead puppy. The child's mother emerged from an opening in the corn, took the puppy from her daughter and tossed it away, then took her by the hand and walked her back into the clearing surrounding their home, an oblong of upright sticks with a thatched roof. In the clearing a small pig, tethered to a pole, was being fattened on corn stalks. That child had about a fifty percent chance of living to be 5 years old. For these destitute highland maya, who live with malnutrition or on the brink of malnutrition all the time, meat is an occasional, much-valued part of the diet, which otherwise consists of an unvarying round of tortillas, beans, and peppers (if they're lucky). That pig and a very limited amount of small game will be their only supply, and often the pig is sold rather than eaten by the family. Dogs are accepted as part of the domestic landscape, but there are no veterinarians to spay them, and they compete for meager resources, so there are drowned litters of puppies? on the shores of ponds and streams. Those who drown them don't see themselves as having much choice in the matter. Empathy and compassion. Wouldn't it be nice if these folks were well-enough fed that they could consider becoming vegetarians? If they didn't feel themselves culturally castrated in the process. Because another aspect of this is that food isn't just food, it's at the core of family and culture, and even of the rituals that Gabe, in an excess of ethnocentrism, finds abhorrent. Which means, probably, that there are no easy or morally-neutral solutions. Best, Mark -----Original Message----- From: stephen russell Sent: Nov 5, 2011 10:09 AM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Wouldn't it be fair to say that non-human animals feel pain? They lack the cognitive software called language. They can't tell us what they feel. But when we see a dog wag its tail, we can at least infer that the animal isn't angry or fearful. Animals have a nervous system. Beat them and they will show their discomfort. This be neurologically tested. Although such a test is absurd. We know when a fellow creature (human or non-human) is feeling pain. Has anyone on the list seriously looked into this matter aside from Gabriel Gudding? Again, Peter Singer, one of the most distinguished philosophers in this country has been writing about animal rights for years. --- On Fri, 11/4/11, Michael Snider wrote: From: Michael Snider Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Friday, November 4, 2011, 2:25 PM On Nov 4, 2011, at 12:46, gabriel gudding wrote: >? Here is a fellow > being who feels, grieves, loves, wants, wishes, feels surprise, > heartache, anger, disgust (and we know now that all mammals, and many > vertebrates, feel these things too) If that's your idea of settled science, Gabriel, then your idea of settled science is very peculiar. Human consciousness is an unreliable belated commentary by one of many neural networks, usually in the left hemisphere, on what our bodies did or experienced just a moment ago, and there is very little evidence that any other animal does anything that remotely resembles that activity, that any other animal, with the possible exception of some chimpanzees and some crows, has a sense of self. That doesn't mean they don't feel injury, and it certainly doesn't mean that we should feel free to thoughtlessly and casually injure them. It does mean that "disgust," for example, is our name for a collection of physiological reactions when we're constructing a story about what just happened to the muscles in our intestinal tract and or faces and to our heart rate and about why we just had to look away - but those things happen whether or not there's a consciousness to associate and name them after the fact. The physical reaction is not the story we tell about it, and the story is the only place grief and love and the rest of your list exists. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Nov 5 14:35:36 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 11:35:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1320518136.87076.YahooMailClassic@web161917.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ?We once had tails. I still have one. It horrified my parents. They put me up for adoption. When the agency refused to take me, mom & dad tossed me to the wolves. I've been raised by wolves and consider myself lucky. --- On Sat, 11/5/11, Halvard Johnson wrote: From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 2:29 PM I've yet to see a human wags its tail. (No rude ripostes, por favor.) ?? ? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Michael Snider wrote: Pain, of course. But not the sense that "I" am suffering, because ?no other animal has a self-model, a sense of selfhood (http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Self_models). Associations between particular situations/events and their frequently experienced sequlae, yes, but not "oh boy, it's that nice woman who feeds me"; no "if I wag my tail he'll know I want to be friends": only a creature with a self model can do those things, and that means only humans, at least on this planet. www.mikesnider.org On Nov 5, 2011, at 10:09, stephen russell wrote: Wouldn't it be fair to say that non-human animals feel pain? They lack the cognitive software called language. They can't tell us what they feel. But when we see a dog wag its tail, we can at least infer that the animal isn't angry or fearful. Animals have a nervous system. Beat them and they will show their discomfort. This be neurologically tested. Although such a test is absurd. We know when a fellow creature (human or non-human) is feeling pain. Has anyone on the list seriously looked into this matter aside from Gabriel Gudding? Again, Peter Singer, one of the most distinguished philosophers in this country has been writing about animal rights for years. --- On Fri, 11/4/11, Michael Snider wrote: From: Michael Snider Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Friday, November 4, 2011, 2:25 PM On Nov 4, 2011, at 12:46, gabriel gudding wrote: >? Here is a fellow > being who feels, grieves, loves, wants, wishes, feels surprise, > heartache, anger, disgust (and we know now that all mammals, and many > vertebrates, feel these things too) If that's your idea of settled science, Gabriel, then your idea of settled science is very peculiar. Human consciousness is an unreliable belated commentary by one of many neural networks, usually in the left hemisphere, on what our bodies did or experienced just a moment ago, and there is very little evidence that any other animal does anything that remotely resembles that activity, that any other animal, with the possible exception of some chimpanzees and some crows, has a sense of self. That doesn't mean they don't feel injury, and it certainly doesn't mean that we should feel free to thoughtlessly and casually injure them. It does mean that "disgust," for example, is our name for a collection of physiological reactions when we're constructing a story about what just happened to the muscles in our intestinal tract and or faces and to our heart rate and about why we just had to look away - but those things happen whether or not there's a consciousness to associate and name them after the fact. The physical reaction is not the story we tell about it, and the story is the only place grief and love and the rest of your list exists. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 14:36:39 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 13:36:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sheila, [I've been enjoying the discussion too! It's very kind of you to presume am younger especially since am 45 and spend most of my days with people perpetually w/ far more energy in their twenties and early thirties. Is nice. :)] Regarding the bodily "no!" you mention: my experience is most of us aren't even aware the degree to which our bodies' cravings for certain sensations actually bias our cognition so profoundly it can numb us ethically and politically. It causes me to think why Orwell sd, "To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle." One cd add: and to see what's on one's plate. I think when we are invested in a situation at the level of bodily craving and comfort, with habitual social support for such easily available thoughts and perceptions, any challenge to that comfort is guarded against with emotional violence and cognitive illusion: anger, self-delusion. Orwell again: "The point is that we are all capable of believing things which we?know?to be untrue, and then, when we are finally proved wrong, impudently twisting the facts so as to show that we were right. Intellectually, it is possible to carry on this process for an indefinite time...." I feel you in stopping meat. It wasn't easy for me. When the body gets used to certain heavy sensations, it's not easy to change that. If it's something you might continue, I'd say, go slow. Take breaks. I think Harris's point in saying that values are facts about the well-being of conscious creatures, is (from what I can understand) something like this: just as we can know that a healthy leg is better (with exceptions certainly) for the well-being of a creature than a damaged leg, we can know that a happy, thriving mind is better for a creature than a dismal, suffering mind. Knowing that, we can say that anything that increases happy, thriving minds in conscious creatures is good, while those things that decrease them are bad. This is all Harris means. And we can cultivate attitudes and cognitive and physical practices -- with many right answers -- to have healthier, happier minds/lives -- even from the midst of great challenges. I wonder if the aversion to "moral" as a term comes from a long and problematic history of deontological tyranny in christendom: it's good because god/king says it's good, period, like it or be punished. What Harris is suggesting, I think, is a pre-christian and dialogic inquiry into what helps us thrive. This is actually not revolutionary, but a return to something like an Aristotelian conception of eudaimonia/thriving. In part because of that monotheistic history, we think that "moral" is didactic and tutelary, when it's just about sustained thriving. Joy is an interesting phenomenon. I am taken with ancient theravadan theories and practices, mostly because they're a set of practices that accord with the old Stoic ideal of eudaimonia : there is a Pali word -- "mudita" -- which means "sympathetic joy," joy in the welfare of others (where "others" is radically expanded to include all beings), and joy that arises from knowing others are benefiting too. This is not a mindstate less easily understood in the west, especially if we are engaged, at a grosser level, in practices that harm others (for the reasons Orwell suggests: we become invested in contradictions at a bodily/social level and lie to ourselves). Kinsella, poetry, aesthetics, ethics: When you write "and yet...my own feeling would be...that aesthetics--and, gulp ,experience--are always complicating what is ethical or how to decide what is ethical in real and perhaps unanswerable ways" -- I do agree with you, which is why (to me) literature should be seen for what it is: part of a complex, fascinating conversation whose purpose (following Deleuze/Aristotle) is to vitalize. Not a collection of artifacts we worship/like/appreciate merely for their aesthetic dimensions. Do that certainly if it floats the boat, but to suggest (and I know you're not, but perhaps a thought is floating out there in the conversation) that there is nothing more to literature, or anything that partakes of something more is somehow bad literature, seems, well, an impoverishment. Punk and saying no: I like the way you put that about the visceral response of the body saying "no" back. I spent the 80s in Seattle listening to Punk and going to shows: Black Flag, Suicidal Tendencies, Dead Kennedys, Circle Jerks (tho I always hated their name, I liked their music). And wd offer that there might be no better way to say "no" to the corporate greed of Monsanto, ADM, Pfister, Arm&Hammer, Perdue and Tyson, and countless agribusiness multinationals than to stop eating their poison-laden products sold to a wealthy country of comfortable people and stolen pretty gruesomely from the bodies of fellow sufferers. That's a "no" worth amplifying amplify a thousand fold. Gabe > I have been--and I > really appreciate this!--puzzled and chagrined > to some degree by my somewhat kneejerk reaction against much of what you are > saying--which is not occurring on an ethical plane > > --you may be pleased that all this has actually made me STOP eating meat for > the past three days--pathetic I know but something of a > record for me who tends to be a steak, red wine, chocolate, cigarettes > (though I did finally quit those), over-indulgent sort of person-- > > but is occurring rather on a sort of atavistic plane--a sort of instinctual > "no, it isn't like that," or "no, that isn't enough," sort of level, and I > have been trying to work out what that "no" means or what I mean by it.? And > I know part of it is just a sort of spoiled brat modern American > punk rock kind of No--like "no, it is inconvenient for me to think that so I > won't," but there is also more to it--and that more does tend > to come in around the realm of art or art and its relationship to experience > and imagination, which is simply, > > would I find a poem that espouses political ideas I believe in and only does > that necessarily a good or necessary poem? > > The answer would obviously be no.? Which, in turn, begs the question what do > I consider necessary in a poem to make me think it good?--and I > tend to think it is access to some different way of knowing or apprehending > than I can encompass altogether rationally, logically, ethically > > even--can a concept of goodness exist that is not built on joyfulness?? And > what makes us joyful?? Not always what makes us good--not > that I think you want the goodness, the being ethical you are speaking of, > to be a pale Sunday school sort of dutiful thing, but what > > do you do to encompass the diversity of desire--one's own or that of other > people?? Or the way in which most beings are not > entirely rational, ethical, and so on.? Is joy bad if the thing that gives > it hurts someone-- > > however indirectly, for example, the joy of eating red meat?? Or if I train > myself out of that habit and become in the process less joyful > > have I become less good?? Obviously, I am being a bit silly here--but I do > think that sense of exceeding bounds is part of our goodness ("being > > in joy must be part of goodness--the exercise of the self) and > > what we seek in art when we say it is good (we often mean it is like magic, > like exorcism, or moves beyond clear valuations of good, bad, > right, wrong in ways that feel right or true to us--what to make of that > feeling?) > > Certainly there is moral progress--and I would not argue with you remotely > about the examples you cite; but there are also ways in which > for every instant of progress there are also new forms of immorality and > moral degradation, which we lie about, I think, if we are not > rigorous about admitting the full complexity and/or range of our > relationship with experience and desire.? You say: > > Re pragmatist ethics and science. I hear your concern. And I am taken > with neuroscientist and moral philosopher Sam Harris who suggests that > science already does help people see what is moral, and by moral he > merely means correctly valued knowledge about well-being. > > Maybe I am just neurotic but I see no means of correctly valuing knowledge > about well-being--what makes me feel well or even what makes > it possible for me to survive NOW might be bad for me down the line as to be > "good" is certainly an aim of mine, but at a certain point too much > "goodness" means ignoring (shades of Blake) or repressing (and letting > fester)? too much of what I authentically desire or even what I might be, > (my "being") etcetera, etcetera, which is exactly the painful, relative > ongoing process of mindfulness I tend to seek from art. > > No answers but in things (or moments) > > to paraphrase William Carlos Williams... > > or "How does one measure wishes?" to paraphrase John... > > But I am enjoying this discussion! > > Best, > > Sheila > > > > ________________________________ > Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 10:32:20 -0700 > From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > ? --"'For me, poetry has no point in existing if it?s not to be a prompt or > aid to political and ethical change.'" > Bah. ?I've always found that sort of poetry the weakest. > ? --"Here is a fellow being who feels, grieves, loves, wants, wishes, feels > surprise, heartache, anger, disgust (and we know now that all mammals, and > many vertebrates, feel these things too.)" > Wishes? ?Feels disgust? ?All mammals? ?Are we talking science here? ?How > does one measure wishes? ?"We discovered through careful research that the > eastern mole wishes to see the ocean, and was both surprised and disgusted > at Emily Dickinson's claim that she didn't have to see the sea to know what > a wave must be." > JohnJ > > ________________________________ > From: gabriel gudding > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Friday, November 4, 2011 12:46 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > Sheila, > > Thanks for your reply. I got very busy at work. In terms of beauty and > bodies, I often think of something sd or written by a theravadan > vipassana meditator named Thanissaro Bhikkhu. It was something like, > "The way we compare one body to another, one face to another, is > absolutely insane." This same inherently divisive thing we often do > with one another, is also what we do with animals. Here is a fellow > being who feels, grieves, loves, wants, wishes, feels surprise, > heartache, anger, disgust (and we know now that all mammals, and many > vertebrates, feel these things too) -- and yet we have no problem > enslaving it, putting it in stress positions, injecting it with > harmful toxins, and then killing and eating it. We have no problem > because we see it divisively in precisely the way mentioned above. > > Regarding encouraging and discouraging behaviors along right/wrong > dimensions: We can and do converge on moral issues often. Sometimes it > takes culture a long time to converge on moral issues. Spousal abuse: > wrong. Yet, a man hitting his wife was considered an okay thing to do > in 1950s Minnesota. Think how long it took Europe and the Americas to > outlaw slavery or to accord women and, in the States, > African-Americans the vote. Those were wrongs with moral, political, > and ethical dimensions, labeled as wrongs, that took far too long to > recognize and arrive at consensus about. There is a great article by > Michele Moody-Adams, a moral philosopher, in _Setting the Moral > Compass_ called "The Idea of Moral Progress," as to how progress in > moral understanding happens: > > http://tinyurl.com/3fw2fo4 > > I think there is something similar happening now in our treatment of a > newly seen Other: our fellow earthlings here with us inhabiting > different bodies. We think some of these bodies are composed only of > meat, while they also contain thoughts, languages, emotions, ideas -- > things we used to think only human. > > Re pragmatist ethics and science. I hear your concern. And I am taken > with neuroscientist and moral philosopher Sam Harris who suggests that > science already does help people see what is moral, and by moral he > merely means correctly valued knowledge about well-being. His > formulation goes something like this: morality already lies in the > realm of knowledge, not the realm of mere opinion or ritual or > labeling: "values are facts about the well-being of conscious > creatures" is how he gets there. I think it's compelling. There is a > western antipathy to seeing morality as something to do with > well-being. For Aristotle this wasn't a problem. > > And I agree that it is important for poetry/literature to have a > moral/ethical energy, or at least be a consideration into literature's > coming-into-being. Following Connie's Kinsella article, Ashley Capps > pointed me to another essay by Kinsella, in which he says, > > "For me, poetry has no point in existing if it?s not to be a prompt or > aid to political and ethical change. This is not to say that a poem > should be political or ethical instruction, but rather that it might > engender a dialogue between the poem itself and the reader / listener, > between itself and other poems and texts, and between all of these and > a broader public (whatever that might be). I see myself as a poet > activist?every time I write a poem, it is an act of resistance to the > state, the myriad hierarchies of control, and the human urge to > conquer our natural surroundings." > > Found here: > > http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/article/238296 > > Gabe > > On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 3:15 PM, sheila black > wrote: >> >> Gabriel: >> >> The Kinsella essay Connie sent IS wonderful. >> >> I like the idea of "moral energy" as opposed to "moral purpose."? I wonder >> if I resist consequentialist or utilitarian ethics because they seem to >> translate too much of what we experience into a recognizable economy of >> exchange and value, which is all very well, but robs from us a portion of >> eternity or the boundless.? I am not religious, but struck often the >> philosophical ideas (or make that artistic ideas) I am most attracted to >> seem precisely those than unmake the notion of "a rational economy."? For >> instance--art--if it has an economy at all--has more the economy of a wild >> dice throw or an act of sacrifice than one of "reasonable hourly work well >> and fairly paid."? Or maybe that is just because I am not very good at >> reasonable work. >> >> I have a similar resistance to pragmatic ethics (how do we know, say, >> science is looking at the right things?) but I suspect that is as much from >> childish willfulness as anything--like insisting on eating or drinking what >> I know is NOT good for me and being happy about it; ah, the pleasure of >> perversity in other words (and there is something perverse or at least >> spoiled in the pleasure of the pastoral); and empathy, which does seem to me >> & despite everything the most important thing, like being kind.? I am struck >> not only how difficult empathy is, how much it depends on a radical act of >> imagination, but also that we are usually only driven to true feats of >> empathy, such difficult acts of imagination, by some real and/or >> extraordinary pressure.? For instance, the way people will try very hard to >> figure out a beloved, poring over the most minor turns of phrase, the most >> innocuous statements.? Or how you might try very hard to imagine what an >> enemy might think or feel if you have one.? Or--to bring it back to >> animals--and why I started thinking about this--those beautiful? strange >> tender and deeply empathetic pictures of animals on the prehistoric walls of >> Lascaux, Chauvet, Pech Merle, etc--whose scrupulous accuracy and attention >> seems to derive finally from the pressure of need, hunger--pictures painted >> by hunters. And the added strangeness that if you can say one thing about >> humans it is that we are fundamentally--or distinguished by our being >> as--aesthetic creatures; and how must that complicate our claims to >> morality? >> >> I remember when I was reading a lot about disability at one point, >> completely drowning in David Hume and the other Enlightenment thinkers--who >> really wanted a way to create a taxonomy of beauty and deformity, a moral >> order to "fit within," how cheered I was by this (well-known) quote by >> Spinoza: "I would warn you that I do not attribute to nature either beauty >> or deformity, order or confusion.? Only in relation to our imagination can >> things be called beautiful or ugly, well-ordered or confused."? Which >> is--perhaps--something? like what you are getting at when you speak of "the >> moral energy to examine one's own perceived moral purpose." >> >> Anyway-- >> >> Cheers! >> >> Sheila >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 14:45:41 2011 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 14:45:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Short Interview with Philip Levine Message-ID: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/06/magazine/philip-levine-still-knows-how-to-make-trouble.html?_r=1&src=tp&smid=fb-share *You were recently named America?s poet laureate. What has been most surprising about the gig? * How much attention it?s gotten. People like my doctor or the guy who sells me wine or the people in my gym come up to me and say, ?Oh, Phil, this is marvelous.? Some of them didn?t even know I was a poet. Now there are mobs of people when I give readings. I read at a high school in Pennsylvania, and there were 600 people. --Jeff Newberry -- Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and lived syncopation. ?Yusef Komunyakaa http://www.jeffnewberry.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 14:52:24 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 12:52:24 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <1320517868.20118.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <8668366.1320505542087.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1320517868.20118.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Anyone know of Amos Bronson Alcott's Fruitlands, where only aspiring vegetables would be eaten: i.e. those that grew upwards toward Heaven rather than (like potatoes, carrots, etc.) grew downwards toward Hell? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 12:31 PM, stephen russell < poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: > "We rightly decry the ill-treatment of animals we live with, though we > castrate or spay them." > > Yes -- > > ... & (we) treat them as what ... family? ... infants without existential > choice ... we seem to value our domesticated pets for any number of > sentimental reasons ... > > You make a fine distinction between disposable, & non-disposable incomes > ... in many parts of the world, food is not a luxury -- > > > "Those who drown them don't see themselves as having much choice in the > matter." > > Exactly. Extreme poverty ... food is not a luxury ... some people have to > eat to stay alive ... food is not merely a matter of pleasure in these sort > of circumstances ... > > Ditto your last paragraph ... & I agree ... " Wouldn't it be nice if these > folks were well-enough fed that they could consider becoming vegetarians?" > > It would be nice. Which is to say, if one doesn't live in a place where > food is a matter of pleasure, it's senseless to discuss veg vs. non-veg ... > it only applies to wealthy countries. > > > --- On *Sat, 11/5/11, junction at earthlink.net *wrote: > > > From: junction at earthlink.net > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 11:05 AM > > These are rather smaller claims. And of course obviously true. But this > begs all sorts of questions. For instance, in places where there's > disposable income the predators we keep as pets lead far more comfortable > and longer lives than they would in the wilds, but at an obvious cost, if > we imagine wolves, say, valuing their wildness, or dogs valuing > reproductive freedom and the social structure of the pack. > > But even this is difficult to generalize about. Hiking in the mountains of > Guatemala I came upon a toddler dangling from her hand what I took to be a > doll or a stuffed animal until I got close enough to see that it was a dead > puppy. The child's mother emerged from an opening in the corn, took the > puppy from her daughter and tossed it away, then took her by the hand and > walked her back into the clearing surrounding their home, an oblong of > upright sticks with a thatched roof. In the clearing a small pig, tethered > to a pole, was being fattened on corn stalks. > > That child had about a fifty percent chance of living to be 5 years old. > > For these destitute highland maya, who live with malnutrition or on the > brink of malnutrition all the time, meat is an occasional, much-valued part > of the diet, which otherwise consists of an unvarying round of tortillas, > beans, and peppers (if they're lucky). That pig and a very limited amount > of small game will be their only supply, and often the pig is sold rather > than eaten by the family. Dogs are accepted as part of the domestic > landscape, but there are no veterinarians to spay them, and they compete > for meager resources, so there are drowned litters of puppies on the > shores of ponds and streams. Those who drown them don't see themselves as > having much choice in the matter. > > Empathy and compassion. Wouldn't it be nice if these folks were > well-enough fed that they could consider becoming vegetarians? If they > didn't feel themselves culturally castrated in the process. Because another > aspect of this is that food isn't just food, it's at the core of family and > culture, and even of the rituals that Gabe, in an excess of ethnocentrism, > finds abhorrent. > > Which means, probably, that there are no easy or morally-neutral solutions. > > Best, > > Mark > > -----Original Message----- > From: stephen russell > Sent: Nov 5, 2011 10:09 AM > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > Wouldn't it be fair to say that non-human animals feel pain? They lack the > cognitive software called language. They can't tell us what they feel. But > when we see a dog wag its tail, we can at least infer that the animal isn't > angry or fearful. Animals have a nervous system. Beat them and they will > show their discomfort. This be neurologically tested. Although such a test > is absurd. We know when a fellow creature (human or non-human) is feeling > pain. > > Has anyone on the list seriously looked into this matter aside from > Gabriel Gudding? Again, Peter Singer, one of the most distinguished > philosophers in this country has been writing about animal rights for > years. > > --- On *Fri, 11/4/11, Michael Snider * wrote: > > > From: Michael Snider > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Friday, November 4, 2011, 2:25 PM > > > On Nov 4, 2011, at 12:46, gabriel gudding > wrote: > > > Here is a fellow > > being who feels, grieves, loves, wants, wishes, feels surprise, > > heartache, anger, disgust (and we know now that all mammals, and many > > vertebrates, feel these things too) > > If that's your idea of settled science, Gabriel, then your idea of settled > science is very peculiar. > > Human consciousness is an unreliable belated commentary by one of many > neural networks, usually in the left hemisphere, on what our bodies did or > experienced just a moment ago, and there is very little evidence that any > other animal does anything that remotely resembles that activity, that any > other animal, with the possible exception of some chimpanzees and some > crows, has a sense of self. That doesn't mean they don't feel injury, and > it certainly doesn't mean that we should feel free to thoughtlessly and > casually injure them. > > It does mean that "disgust," for example, is our name for a collection of > physiological reactions when we're constructing a story about what just > happened to the muscles in our intestinal tract and or faces and to our > heart rate and about why we just had to look away - but those things happen > whether or not there's a consciousness to associate and name them after the > fact. The physical reaction is not the story we tell about it, and the > story is the only place grief and love and the rest of your list exists. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From almaginnes at aol.com Sat Nov 5 14:54:04 2011 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 14:54:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Why I am a Conscientious Objector in the Digital Revolution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CE6A036C7F2F1A-6D4-12A8CE@webmail-d169.sysops.aol.com> Hey Jeff, As I posted on Facebook, I have a serious book jones. And I live in a house divided. My wife loves her Kindle. I don't own one and she won't lend me hers to read any of the books she keeps telling me about. Since I buy so many small press books, I don't see stopping book purchases any time soon, but I am seriously considering a Kindle and wondering if this will help or hurt my pocketbook when it comes to book buying. Anyway, good, thoughtful article. Wonder what anyone else thinks. Al -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Newberry To: NewPoetry Sent: Sat, Nov 5, 2011 10:25 am Subject: [New-Poetry] Why I am a Conscientious Objector in the Digital Revolution Howdy, NewPo folks, I've been blogging again for a while now. And I just posted a new piece about ebooks. I thought some of you might want to read it and perhaps drop a comment: http://www.jeffnewberry.com/1/post/2011/11/a-conscientous-objector-in-the-digital-revolution.html Thanks! Best, Jeff Newberry -- Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres tometrics embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and lived syncopation. ?YusefKomunyakaa _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Nov 5 15:02:17 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 12:02:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1320519737.60545.YahooMailClassic@web161908.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> And wd offer that there might be no better way to say "no" to the corporate greed of Monsanto, ADM, Pfister, Arm&Hammer, Perdue and Tyson, and countless agribusiness multinationals than to stop eating their poison-laden products sold to a wealthy country of comfortable people and stolen pretty gruesomely from the bodies of fellow sufferers. That's a "no" worth amplifying amplify a thousand fold. ... it would be a good way to say no ... there's an Occupy K street movement happening in D.C. ... tent city in an otherwise affluent downtown ... it's a movement (part of occupy Wall Street) that's getting a ton of media attention ... one can say No to Monsanto/ADM/Pfister/Arm & Hammer/ Perdue & Tyson, but THEY have $$$ ... & get their message across (buy/eat what we advertise) ... --- On Sat, 11/5/11, gabriel gudding wrote: From: gabriel gudding Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 2:36 PM Sheila, [I've been enjoying the discussion too! It's very kind of you to presume am younger especially since am 45 and spend most of my days with people perpetually w/ far more energy in their twenties and early thirties. Is nice. :)] Regarding the bodily "no!" you mention: my experience is most of us aren't even aware the degree to which our bodies' cravings for certain sensations actually bias our cognition so profoundly it can numb us ethically and politically. It causes me to think why Orwell sd, "To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle." One cd add: and to see what's on one's plate. I think when we are invested in a situation at the level of bodily craving and comfort, with habitual social support for such easily available thoughts and perceptions, any challenge to that comfort is guarded against with emotional violence and cognitive illusion: anger, self-delusion. Orwell again: "The point is that we are all capable of believing things which we?know?to be untrue, and then, when we are finally proved wrong, impudently twisting the facts so as to show that we were right. Intellectually, it is possible to carry on this process for an indefinite time...." I feel you in stopping meat. It wasn't easy for me. When the body gets used to certain heavy sensations, it's not easy to change that. If it's something you might continue, I'd say, go slow. Take breaks. I think Harris's point in saying that values are facts about the well-being of conscious creatures, is (from what I can understand) something like this: just as we can know that a healthy leg is better (with exceptions certainly) for the well-being of a creature than a damaged leg, we can know that a happy, thriving mind is better for a creature than a dismal, suffering mind. Knowing that, we can say that anything that increases happy, thriving minds in conscious creatures is good, while those things that decrease them are bad. This is all Harris means. And we can cultivate attitudes and cognitive and physical practices -- with many right answers -- to have healthier, happier minds/lives -- even from the midst of great challenges. I wonder if the aversion to "moral" as a term comes from a long and problematic history of deontological tyranny in christendom: it's good because god/king says it's good, period, like it or be punished. What Harris is suggesting, I think, is a pre-christian and dialogic inquiry into what helps us thrive. This is actually not revolutionary, but a return to something like an Aristotelian conception of eudaimonia/thriving. In part because of that monotheistic history, we think that "moral" is didactic and tutelary, when it's just about sustained thriving. Joy is an interesting phenomenon. I am taken with ancient theravadan theories and practices, mostly because they're a set of practices that accord with the old Stoic ideal of eudaimonia : there is a Pali word -- "mudita" -- which means "sympathetic joy," joy in the welfare of others (where "others" is radically expanded to include all beings), and joy that arises from knowing others are benefiting too. This is not a mindstate less easily understood in the west, especially if we are engaged, at a grosser level, in practices that harm others (for the reasons Orwell suggests: we become invested in contradictions at a bodily/social level and lie to ourselves). Kinsella, poetry, aesthetics, ethics: When you write "and yet...my own feeling would be...that aesthetics--and, gulp ,experience--are always complicating what is ethical or how to decide what is ethical in real and perhaps unanswerable ways" -- I do agree with you, which is why (to me) literature should be seen for what it is: part of a complex, fascinating conversation whose purpose (following Deleuze/Aristotle) is to vitalize. Not a collection of artifacts we worship/like/appreciate merely for their aesthetic dimensions. Do that certainly if it floats the boat, but to suggest (and I know you're not, but perhaps a thought is floating out there in the conversation) that there is nothing more to literature, or anything that partakes of something more is somehow bad literature, seems, well, an impoverishment. Punk and saying no: I like the way you put that about the visceral response of the body saying "no" back. I spent the 80s in Seattle listening to Punk and going to shows: Black Flag, Suicidal Tendencies, Dead Kennedys, Circle Jerks (tho I always hated their name, I liked their music). And wd offer that there might be no better way to say "no" to the corporate greed of Monsanto, ADM, Pfister, Arm&Hammer, Perdue and Tyson, and countless agribusiness multinationals than to stop eating their poison-laden products sold to a wealthy country of comfortable people and stolen pretty gruesomely from the bodies of fellow sufferers. That's a "no" worth amplifying amplify a thousand fold. Gabe > I have been--and I > really appreciate this!--puzzled and chagrined > to some degree by my somewhat kneejerk reaction against much of what you are > saying--which is not occurring on an ethical plane > > --you may be pleased that all this has actually made me STOP eating meat for > the past three days--pathetic I know but something of a > record for me who tends to be a steak, red wine, chocolate, cigarettes > (though I did finally quit those), over-indulgent sort of person-- > > but is occurring rather on a sort of atavistic plane--a sort of instinctual > "no, it isn't like that," or "no, that isn't enough," sort of level, and I > have been trying to work out what that "no" means or what I mean by it.? And > I know part of it is just a sort of spoiled brat modern American > punk rock kind of No--like "no, it is inconvenient for me to think that so I > won't," but there is also more to it--and that more does tend > to come in around the realm of art or art and its relationship to experience > and imagination, which is simply, > > would I find a poem that espouses political ideas I believe in and only does > that necessarily a good or necessary poem? > > The answer would obviously be no.? Which, in turn, begs the question what do > I consider necessary in a poem to make me think it good?--and I > tend to think it is access to some different way of knowing or apprehending > than I can encompass altogether rationally, logically, ethically > > even--can a concept of goodness exist that is not built on joyfulness?? And > what makes us joyful?? Not always what makes us good--not > that I think you want the goodness, the being ethical you are speaking of, > to be a pale Sunday school sort of dutiful thing, but what > > do you do to encompass the diversity of desire--one's own or that of other > people?? Or the way in which most beings are not > entirely rational, ethical, and so on.? Is joy bad if the thing that gives > it hurts someone-- > > however indirectly, for example, the joy of eating red meat?? Or if I train > myself out of that habit and become in the process less joyful > > have I become less good?? Obviously, I am being a bit silly here--but I do > think that sense of exceeding bounds is part of our goodness ("being > > in joy must be part of goodness--the exercise of the self) and > > what we seek in art when we say it is good (we often mean it is like magic, > like exorcism, or moves beyond clear valuations of good, bad, > right, wrong in ways that feel right or true to us--what to make of that > feeling?) > > Certainly there is moral progress--and I would not argue with you remotely > about the examples you cite; but there are also ways in which > for every instant of progress there are also new forms of immorality and > moral degradation, which we lie about, I think, if we are not > rigorous about admitting the full complexity and/or range of our > relationship with experience and desire.? You say: > > Re pragmatist ethics and science. I hear your concern. And I am taken > with neuroscientist and moral philosopher Sam Harris who suggests that > science already does help people see what is moral, and by moral he > merely means correctly valued knowledge about well-being. > > Maybe I am just neurotic but I see no means of correctly valuing knowledge > about well-being--what makes me feel well or even what makes > it possible for me to survive NOW might be bad for me down the line as to be > "good" is certainly an aim of mine, but at a certain point too much > "goodness" means ignoring (shades of Blake) or repressing (and letting > fester)? too much of what I authentically desire or even what I might be, > (my "being") etcetera, etcetera, which is exactly the painful, relative > ongoing process of mindfulness I tend to seek from art. > > No answers but in things (or moments) > > to paraphrase William Carlos Williams... > > or "How does one measure wishes?" to paraphrase John... > > But I am enjoying this discussion! > > Best, > > Sheila > > > > ________________________________ > Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 10:32:20 -0700 > From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > ? --"'For me, poetry has no point in existing if it?s not to be a prompt or > aid to political and ethical change.'" > Bah. ?I've always found that sort of poetry the weakest. > ? --"Here is a fellow being who feels, grieves, loves, wants, wishes, feels > surprise, heartache, anger, disgust (and we know now that all mammals, and > many vertebrates, feel these things too.)" > Wishes? ?Feels disgust? ?All mammals? ?Are we talking science here? ?How > does one measure wishes? ?"We discovered through careful research that the > eastern mole wishes to see the ocean, and was both surprised and disgusted > at Emily Dickinson's claim that she didn't have to see the sea to know what > a wave must be." > JohnJ > > ________________________________ > From: gabriel gudding > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Friday, November 4, 2011 12:46 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > Sheila, > > Thanks for your reply. I got very busy at work. In terms of beauty and > bodies, I often think of something sd or written by a theravadan > vipassana meditator named Thanissaro Bhikkhu. It was something like, > "The way we compare one body to another, one face to another, is > absolutely insane." This same inherently divisive thing we often do > with one another, is also what we do with animals. Here is a fellow > being who feels, grieves, loves, wants, wishes, feels surprise, > heartache, anger, disgust (and we know now that all mammals, and many > vertebrates, feel these things too) -- and yet we have no problem > enslaving it, putting it in stress positions, injecting it with > harmful toxins, and then killing and eating it. We have no problem > because we see it divisively in precisely the way mentioned above. > > Regarding encouraging and discouraging behaviors along right/wrong > dimensions: We can and do converge on moral issues often. Sometimes it > takes culture a long time to converge on moral issues. Spousal abuse: > wrong. Yet, a man hitting his wife was considered an okay thing to do > in 1950s Minnesota. Think how long it took Europe and the Americas to > outlaw slavery or to accord women and, in the States, > African-Americans the vote. Those were wrongs with moral, political, > and ethical dimensions, labeled as wrongs, that took far too long to > recognize and arrive at consensus about. There is a great article by > Michele Moody-Adams, a moral philosopher, in _Setting the Moral > Compass_ called "The Idea of Moral Progress," as to how progress in > moral understanding happens: > > http://tinyurl.com/3fw2fo4 > > I think there is something similar happening now in our treatment of a > newly seen Other: our fellow earthlings here with us inhabiting > different bodies. We think some of these bodies are composed only of > meat, while they also contain thoughts, languages, emotions, ideas -- > things we used to think only human. > > Re pragmatist ethics and science. I hear your concern. And I am taken > with neuroscientist and moral philosopher Sam Harris who suggests that > science already does help people see what is moral, and by moral he > merely means correctly valued knowledge about well-being. His > formulation goes something like this: morality already lies in the > realm of knowledge, not the realm of mere opinion or ritual or > labeling: "values are facts about the well-being of conscious > creatures" is how he gets there. I think it's compelling. There is a > western antipathy to seeing morality as something to do with > well-being. For Aristotle this wasn't a problem. > > And I agree that it is important for poetry/literature to have a > moral/ethical energy, or at least be a consideration into literature's > coming-into-being. Following Connie's Kinsella article, Ashley Capps > pointed me to another essay by Kinsella, in which he says, > > "For me, poetry has no point in existing if it?s not to be a prompt or > aid to political and ethical change. This is not to say that a poem > should be political or ethical instruction, but rather that it might > engender a dialogue between the poem itself and the reader / listener, > between itself and other poems and texts, and between all of these and > a broader public (whatever that might be). I see myself as a poet > activist?every time I write a poem, it is an act of resistance to the > state, the myriad hierarchies of control, and the human urge to > conquer our natural surroundings." > > Found here: > > http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/article/238296 > > Gabe > > On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 3:15 PM, sheila black > wrote: >> >> Gabriel: >> >> The Kinsella essay Connie sent IS wonderful. >> >> I like the idea of "moral energy" as opposed to "moral purpose."? I wonder >> if I resist consequentialist or utilitarian ethics because they seem to >> translate too much of what we experience into a recognizable economy of >> exchange and value, which is all very well, but robs from us a portion of >> eternity or the boundless.? I am not religious, but struck often the >> philosophical ideas (or make that artistic ideas) I am most attracted to >> seem precisely those than unmake the notion of "a rational economy."? For >> instance--art--if it has an economy at all--has more the economy of a wild >> dice throw or an act of sacrifice than one of "reasonable hourly work well >> and fairly paid."? Or maybe that is just because I am not very good at >> reasonable work. >> >> I have a similar resistance to pragmatic ethics (how do we know, say, >> science is looking at the right things?) but I suspect that is as much from >> childish willfulness as anything--like insisting on eating or drinking what >> I know is NOT good for me and being happy about it; ah, the pleasure of >> perversity in other words (and there is something perverse or at least >> spoiled in the pleasure of the pastoral); and empathy, which does seem to me >> & despite everything the most important thing, like being kind.? I am struck >> not only how difficult empathy is, how much it depends on a radical act of >> imagination, but also that we are usually only driven to true feats of >> empathy, such difficult acts of imagination, by some real and/or >> extraordinary pressure.? For instance, the way people will try very hard to >> figure out a beloved, poring over the most minor turns of phrase, the most >> innocuous statements.? Or how you might try very hard to imagine what an >> enemy might think or feel if you have one.? Or--to bring it back to >> animals--and why I started thinking about this--those beautiful? strange >> tender and deeply empathetic pictures of animals on the prehistoric walls of >> Lascaux, Chauvet, Pech Merle, etc--whose scrupulous accuracy and attention >> seems to derive finally from the pressure of need, hunger--pictures painted >> by hunters. And the added strangeness that if you can say one thing about >> humans it is that we are fundamentally--or distinguished by our being >> as--aesthetic creatures; and how must that complicate our claims to >> morality? >> >> I remember when I was reading a lot about disability at one point, >> completely drowning in David Hume and the other Enlightenment thinkers--who >> really wanted a way to create a taxonomy of beauty and deformity, a moral >> order to "fit within," how cheered I was by this (well-known) quote by >> Spinoza: "I would warn you that I do not attribute to nature either beauty >> or deformity, order or confusion.? Only in relation to our imagination can >> things be called beautiful or ugly, well-ordered or confused."? Which >> is--perhaps--something? like what you are getting at when you speak of "the >> moral energy to examine one's own perceived moral purpose." >> >> Anyway-- >> >> Cheers! >> >> Sheila >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sat Nov 5 15:17:33 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 15:17:33 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <27844353.1320520653635.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Sat Nov 5 15:24:46 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 19:24:46 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <8668366.1320505542087.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, <1320517868.20118.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: I don't, but I love this! Nutty (or is that fruity?) and wonderful! Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 12:52:24 -0600 From: halvard at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Anyone know of Amos Bronson Alcott's Fruitlands, where only aspiring vegetables would be eaten: i.e. those that grew upwards toward Heaven rather than (like potatoes, carrots, etc.) grew downwards toward Hell? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.orghttp://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 12:31 PM, stephen russell wrote: "We rightly decry the ill-treatment of animals we live with, though we castrate or spay them." Yes -- ... & (we) treat them as what ... family? ... infants without existential choice ... we seem to value our domesticated pets for any number of sentimental reasons ... You make a fine distinction between disposable, & non-disposable incomes ... in many parts of the world, food is not a luxury -- "Those who drown them don't see themselves as having much choice in the matter." Exactly. Extreme poverty ... food is not a luxury ... some people have to eat to stay alive ... food is not merely a matter of pleasure in these sort of circumstances ... Ditto your last paragraph ... & I agree ... " Wouldn't it be nice if these folks were well-enough fed that they could consider becoming vegetarians?" It would be nice. Which is to say, if one doesn't live in a place where food is a matter of pleasure, it's senseless to discuss veg vs. non-veg ... it only applies to wealthy countries. --- On Sat, 11/5/11, junction at earthlink.net wrote: From: junction at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 11:05 AM These are rather smaller claims. And of course obviously true. But this begs all sorts of questions. For instance, in places where there's disposable income the predators we keep as pets lead far more comfortable and longer lives than they would in the wilds, but at an obvious cost, if we imagine wolves, say, valuing their wildness, or dogs valuing reproductive freedom and the social structure of the pack. But even this is difficult to generalize about. Hiking in the mountains of Guatemala I came upon a toddler dangling from her hand what I took to be a doll or a stuffed animal until I got close enough to see that it was a dead puppy. The child's mother emerged from an opening in the corn, took the puppy from her daughter and tossed it away, then took her by the hand and walked her back into the clearing surrounding their home, an oblong of upright sticks with a thatched roof. In the clearing a small pig, tethered to a pole, was being fattened on corn stalks. That child had about a fifty percent chance of living to be 5 years old. For these destitute highland maya, who live with malnutrition or on the brink of malnutrition all the time, meat is an occasional, much-valued part of the diet, which otherwise consists of an unvarying round of tortillas, beans, and peppers (if they're lucky). That pig and a very limited amount of small game will be their only supply, and often the pig is sold rather than eaten by the family. Dogs are accepted as part of the domestic landscape, but there are no veterinarians to spay them, and they compete for meager resources, so there are drowned litters of puppies on the shores of ponds and streams. Those who drown them don't see themselves as having much choice in the matter. Empathy and compassion. Wouldn't it be nice if these folks were well-enough fed that they could consider becoming vegetarians? If they didn't feel themselves culturally castrated in the process. Because another aspect of this is that food isn't just food, it's at the core of family and culture, and even of the rituals that Gabe, in an excess of ethnocentrism, finds abhorrent. Which means, probably, that there are no easy or morally-neutral solutions. Best, Mark -----Original Message----- From: stephen russell Sent: Nov 5, 2011 10:09 AM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Wouldn't it be fair to say that non-human animals feel pain? They lack the cognitive software called language. They can't tell us what they feel. But when we see a dog wag its tail, we can at least infer that the animal isn't angry or fearful. Animals have a nervous system. Beat them and they will show their discomfort. This be neurologically tested. Although such a test is absurd. We know when a fellow creature (human or non-human) is feeling pain. Has anyone on the list seriously looked into this matter aside from Gabriel Gudding? Again, Peter Singer, one of the most distinguished philosophers in this country has been writing about animal rights for years. --- On Fri, 11/4/11, Michael Snider wrote: From: Michael Snider Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Friday, November 4, 2011, 2:25 PM On Nov 4, 2011, at 12:46, gabriel gudding wrote: > Here is a fellow > being who feels, grieves, loves, wants, wishes, feels surprise, > heartache, anger, disgust (and we know now that all mammals, and many > vertebrates, feel these things too) If that's your idea of settled science, Gabriel, then your idea of settled science is very peculiar. Human consciousness is an unreliable belated commentary by one of many neural networks, usually in the left hemisphere, on what our bodies did or experienced just a moment ago, and there is very little evidence that any other animal does anything that remotely resembles that activity, that any other animal, with the possible exception of some chimpanzees and some crows, has a sense of self. That doesn't mean they don't feel injury, and it certainly doesn't mean that we should feel free to thoughtlessly and casually injure them. It does mean that "disgust," for example, is our name for a collection of physiological reactions when we're constructing a story about what just happened to the muscles in our intestinal tract and or faces and to our heart rate and about why we just had to look away - but those things happen whether or not there's a consciousness to associate and name them after the fact. The physical reaction is not the story we tell about it, and the story is the only place grief and love and the rest of your list exists. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Nov 5 15:26:12 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 12:26:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <1320521172.3397.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ... most likely, you're right ... still ... ...? whales? ... they have rather large brains ... Perhaps a sense of self ... an i ... some seem to make suicidal choices ...? & they seem to communicate with one another ... maybe whales have some sort of sense of self ... Heidegger thought that man was the only creature with a Daisen ... in today's venacular that would be considered human/centric ... --- On Sat, 11/5/11, Michael Snider wrote: From: Michael Snider Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 2:26 PM Pain, of course. But not the sense that "I" am suffering, because ?no other animal has a self-model, a sense of selfhood (http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Self_models). Associations between particular situations/events and their frequently experienced sequlae, yes, but not "oh boy, it's that nice woman who feeds me"; no "if I wag my tail he'll know I want to be friends": only a creature with a self model can do those things, and that means only humans, at least on this planet. www.mikesnider.org On Nov 5, 2011, at 10:09, stephen russell wrote: Wouldn't it be fair to say that non-human animals feel pain? They lack the cognitive software called language. They can't tell us what they feel. But when we see a dog wag its tail, we can at least infer that the animal isn't angry or fearful. Animals have a nervous system. Beat them and they will show their discomfort. This be neurologically tested. Although such a test is absurd. We know when a fellow creature (human or non-human) is feeling pain. Has anyone on the list seriously looked into this matter aside from Gabriel Gudding? Again, Peter Singer, one of the most distinguished philosophers in this country has been writing about animal rights for years. --- On Fri, 11/4/11, Michael Snider wrote: From: Michael Snider Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Friday, November 4, 2011, 2:25 PM On Nov 4, 2011, at 12:46, gabriel gudding wrote: >? Here is a fellow > being who feels, grieves, loves, wants, wishes, feels surprise, > heartache, anger, disgust (and we know now that all mammals, and many > vertebrates, feel these things too) If that's your idea of settled science, Gabriel, then your idea of settled science is very peculiar. Human consciousness is an unreliable belated commentary by one of many neural networks, usually in the left hemisphere, on what our bodies did or experienced just a moment ago, and there is very little evidence that any other animal does anything that remotely resembles that activity, that any other animal, with the possible exception of some chimpanzees and some crows, has a sense of self. That doesn't mean they don't feel injury, and it certainly doesn't mean that we should feel free to thoughtlessly and casually injure them. It does mean that "disgust," for example, is our name for a collection of physiological reactions when we're constructing a story about what just happened to the muscles in our intestinal tract and or faces and to our heart rate and about why we just had to look away - but those things happen whether or not there's a consciousness to associate and name them after the fact. The physical reaction is not the story we tell about it, and the story is the only place grief and love and the rest of your list exists. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Nov 5 15:34:45 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 12:34:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <27844353.1320520653635.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1320521685.2510.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> No. I can say from experience that jails do not do veggy ... that's why i try to avoid them ... the food stinks ... everything stinks ... jail rots. ... come to think of it, rehabs don't do veggy either ... at least not the ones i'm familiar with (I never did the Betty Ford thing) ... & they stink too ... but, they're better than jail. --- On Sat, 11/5/11, junction at earthlink.net wrote: From: junction at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 3:17 PM #yiv1180185132 body{font-family:Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:9pt;background-color:#ffffff;color:black;}I misread you. I thought you'd written "Occupy K-Mart." That would work, too. Do jails provide vegetarian meals? How about halal and kosher? Mark -----Original Message----- From: stephen russell Sent: Nov 5, 2011 3:02 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption And wd offer that there might be no better way to say "no" to the corporate greed of Monsanto, ADM, Pfister, Arm&Hammer, Perdue and Tyson, and countless agribusiness multinationals than to stop eating their poison-laden products sold to a wealthy country of comfortable people and stolen pretty gruesomely from the bodies of fellow sufferers. That's a "no" worth amplifying amplify a thousand fold. ... it would be a good way to say no ... there's an Occupy K street movement happening in D.C. ... tent city in an otherwise affluent downtown ... it's a movement (part of occupy Wall Street) that's getting a ton of media attention ... one can say No to Monsanto/ADM/Pfister/Arm & Hammer/ Perdue & Tyson, but THEY have $$$ ... & get their message across (buy/eat what we advertise) ... http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Nov 5 15:39:17 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 12:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <1320521685.2510.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1320521957.81325.YahooMailClassic@web161910.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ... but jail is a growth industry ... why not a veggy prison? ... i see $$$$ ... I WILL START A PRIVATELY RUN VEGGY JAIL ... maybe THAT will deter criminals from crime. --- On Sat, 11/5/11, stephen russell wrote: From: stephen russell Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 3:34 PM No. I can say from experience that jails do not do veggy ... that's why i try to avoid them ... the food stinks ... everything stinks ... jail rots. ... come to think of it, rehabs don't do veggy either ... at least not the ones i'm familiar with (I never did the Betty Ford thing) ... & they stink too ... but, they're better than jail. --- On Sat, 11/5/11, junction at earthlink.net wrote: From: junction at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 3:17 PM #yiv153750011 body{font-family:Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:9pt;background-color:#ffffff;color:black;}I misread you. I thought you'd written "Occupy K-Mart." That would work, too. Do jails provide vegetarian meals? How about halal and kosher? Mark -----Original Message----- From: stephen russell Sent: Nov 5, 2011 3:02 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption And wd offer that there might be no better way to say "no" to the corporate greed of Monsanto, ADM, Pfister, Arm&Hammer, Perdue and Tyson, and countless agribusiness multinationals than to stop eating their poison-laden products sold to a wealthy country of comfortable people and stolen pretty gruesomely from the bodies of fellow sufferers. That's a "no" worth amplifying amplify a thousand fold. ... it would be a good way to say no ... there's an Occupy K street movement happening in D.C. ... tent city in an otherwise affluent downtown ... it's a movement (part of occupy Wall Street) that's getting a ton of media attention ... one can say No to Monsanto/ADM/Pfister/Arm & Hammer/ Perdue & Tyson, but THEY have $$$ ... & get their message across (buy/eat what we advertise) ... http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Nov 5 15:56:08 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 12:56:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <1320521957.81325.YahooMailClassic@web161910.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1320522968.2733.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ... sure, a silly thought ... still, veg vs. non-veg ... is it simply a bourgeoise issue? --- On Sat, 11/5/11, stephen russell wrote: From: stephen russell Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 3:39 PM ... but jail is a growth industry ... why not a veggy prison? ... i see $$$$ ... I WILL START A PRIVATELY RUN VEGGY JAIL ... maybe THAT will deter criminals from crime. --- On Sat, 11/5/11, stephen russell wrote: From: stephen russell Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 3:34 PM No. I can say from experience that jails do not do veggy ... that's why i try to avoid them ... the food stinks ... everything stinks ... jail rots. ... come to think of it, rehabs don't do veggy either ... at least not the ones i'm familiar with (I never did the Betty Ford thing) ... & they stink too ... but, they're better than jail. --- On Sat, 11/5/11, junction at earthlink.net wrote: From: junction at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 3:17 PM #yiv221729562 body{font-family:Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:9pt;background-color:#ffffff;color:black;}I misread you. I thought you'd written "Occupy K-Mart." That would work, too. Do jails provide vegetarian meals? How about halal and kosher? Mark -----Original Message----- From: stephen russell Sent: Nov 5, 2011 3:02 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption And wd offer that there might be no better way to say "no" to the corporate greed of Monsanto, ADM, Pfister, Arm&Hammer, Perdue and Tyson, and countless agribusiness multinationals than to stop eating their poison-laden products sold to a wealthy country of comfortable people and stolen pretty gruesomely from the bodies of fellow sufferers. That's a "no" worth amplifying amplify a thousand fold. ... it would be a good way to say no ... there's an Occupy K street movement happening in D.C. ... tent city in an otherwise affluent downtown ... it's a movement (part of occupy Wall Street) that's getting a ton of media attention ... one can say No to Monsanto/ADM/Pfister/Arm & Hammer/ Perdue & Tyson, but THEY have $$$ ... & get their message across (buy/eat what we advertise) ... http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 16:14:02 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 14:14:02 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <1320522968.2733.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1320521957.81325.YahooMailClassic@web161910.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <1320522968.2733.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: All kinds of polarities here: veg vs. non-veg; rare vs. well-done; aspiring vs. non-aspiring; etc. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 1:56 PM, stephen russell < poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: > ... sure, a silly thought ... still, veg vs. non-veg ... is it simply a > bourgeoise issue? > > --- On *Sat, 11/5/11, stephen russell *wrote: > > > From: stephen russell > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 3:39 PM > > > ... but jail is a growth industry ... why not a veggy prison? ... i see > $$$$ ... I WILL START A PRIVATELY RUN VEGGY JAIL ... maybe THAT will detercriminals from crime. > > --- On *Sat, 11/5/11, stephen russell *wrote: > > > From: stephen russell > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 3:34 PM > > No. I can say from experience that jails do not do veggy ... that's why i > try to avoid them ... the food stinks ... everything stinks ... jail rots. > > ... come to think of it, rehabs don't do veggy either ... at least not the > ones i'm familiar with (I never did the Betty Ford thing) ... & they > stink too ... but, they're better than jail. > > --- On *Sat, 11/5/11, junction at earthlink.net *wrote: > > > From: junction at earthlink.net > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 3:17 PM > > I misread you. I thought you'd written "Occupy K-Mart." That would work, > too. > > Do jails provide vegetarian meals? How about halal and kosher? > > > Mark > > > -----Original Message----- > From: stephen russell > Sent: Nov 5, 2011 3:02 PM > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > And wd offer that there might be no better way to say > "no" to the corporate greed of Monsanto, ADM, Pfister, Arm&Hammer, > Perdue and Tyson, and countless agribusiness multinationals than to > stop eating their poison-laden products sold to a wealthy country of > comfortable people and stolen pretty gruesomely from the bodies of > fellow sufferers. That's a "no" worth amplifying amplify a thousand > fold. > > ... it would be a good way to say no ... there's an Occupy K street > movement happening in D.C. ... tent city in an otherwise affluent downtown > ... it's a movement (part of occupy Wall Street) that's getting a ton of > media attention ... one can say No to Monsanto/ADM/Pfister/Arm & Hammer/ > Perdue & Tyson, but THEY have $$$ ... & get their message across (buy/eat > what we advertise) ... > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carol.dorf at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 18:02:15 2011 From: carol.dorf at gmail.com (Carol Dorf) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 15:02:15 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Duhamel-Seaton Exercise In-Reply-To: <1845145626.1404033.1320514637903.JavaMail.root@sz0153a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> References: <1845145626.1404033.1320514637903.JavaMail.root@sz0153a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <36B57CE7-F30B-46AA-AB31-04C752DFBE66@gmail.com> Seems to me this is an example of an exercise that might work in a classroom of thirty people, but not in an assembly where interaction between students and teachers is minimal. It seems unlikely that the Duchamel and the other poet had spent much time with high school students. Carol TalkingWriting.com On Nov 5, 2011, at 10:37 AM, mykelmarsh at comcast.net wrote: > Whether we like it or not these words are some of the most powerful words in our language, because we will not face up to the fact that we live in a culture that has closed down the discussion of the hard issues of racism and fear of the other. We live in a deeply divided and conflicted nation, but mostly unless something specific comes up, we go about our lives ignoring the fact that racism and homophobia exist even in those who consider themselves open minded. Fear of the other is embedded in our cultural DNA so deeply that we can't recognize it anymore except in those words. They are the doorways to a truth we would rather not visit. > > From: "Jerry McGuire" > To: "NewPoetry List" > Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 8:47:43 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] Duhamel-Seaton Exercise > > There's an article in today's NY Times online by Fernanda Santos treating a visit by Denise Duhamel and Maura Seaton to the Horace Mann School in the Bronx, in which an exercise they did with the students went wrong. In characteristic NY Times form, the article leaves out almost everything interesting to this list--what were the words used, what were the specific responses of the students, etc. I'm appending the first few paragraphs of the article, but I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who knows about this incident in more detail (I'm a big fan of Duhamel, and often use her collaborative poems with Seaton in my classes). > > And by the way, the article goes on to say that Duhamel and Seaton were seated behind the microphone the student poems were being read at, so they couldn't hear the offensive language being used. > > Jerry > > STUDENTS REPEAT A POEM'S SLURS, SURPRISING THE POETS AND AN ELITE BRONX SCHOOL > > The poetry assembly on Tuesday morning at the Horace Mann School, in the Bronx, was meant to be provocative. The visiting poets who led it asked students to write words on index cards ? remembrances, colors and references to pop-culture icons ? that would then converge as poems. > > The poets had set the tone for the exercise by reading a poem they had written together, which uses startling, offensive language and has in its first three lines the harshest slurs against blacks and gays. The same slurs emerged on the cards, written by students in anonymity, then read out loud by peers who picked the cards at random from a pile stacked on a desk. > > The reading went on uninterrupted for 30 minutes at least, one of the poets, Denise Duhamel, recalled in an interview on Friday. According to articles published on Friday in the school?s newspaper, The Horace Mann Record, it set off a mix of disconcerted laughter, confusion and, most of all, soul-searching among teachers and the 700 students in the audience at first, and then throughout the school. > > By Tuesday afternoon, David Schiller, the head of the school?s upper division, had visited many classrooms, apologizing. Dr. Schiller declined to comment, beyond providing a letter he sent to parents on Thursday, in which he took the blame for what had happened. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 18:19:58 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 17:19:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <1320502145.77033.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Michael, On the idea that an I that suffers in a self-aware manner can be used to constitute a distinguishing criterion between beings we kill and beings we accord bodily and mental sovereignty, this is a very important issue and has an interesting history, so, a couple replies. And thanks for bringing it up. 1. Inconsistent application among human animals without theory of mind. We don't do this consistently even among human animals. We accord babies and children under 4 compassionate sovereignty and care, even though we know that human animals do not develop a theory of mind (the knowledge that one is a "one" coupled with the understanding/suspicion that others also have a mind) until age 4. We don't kill or ill-treat other human animals who have suffered severe cognitive damage, either congenitally, genetically, by car accidents and the like, or by senescent dementia or for any other reason. We accord all such human animals, with very few exceptions, bodily and mental dignity. 2. Mind in them. We actually know very little about the varieties of self-conception and cognition possible among non-human animals. We do know that pigs likely have a theory of mind, along with several other species of animals. We also know that cognitive capacities of many animals are shockingly developed. Chimps (eg) consistently beat humans on certain memory tests. We know the same for many species of birds. We know that sheep remember and recognize faces of researches and other sheep for at least three years, with no intervening visits. We know that pigs recognize their own faces and can distinguish themselves in mirrors from other pigs and remember individual humans for many many years. 3. Family in them. If they are mammals, they have families. As Paul MacLean sd, "The history of the evolution of mammals is the history of the development of a family way of life." They play. They parent. They grieve. If they are a mammal, their emotions are the emotions of a family-oriented being. 3. Mind in us. The idea that human animals have some miraculous self-conception is actually false. In a phrase, *humans actually are mostly unconscious,* with a very small part of themselves being awake. This also is settled science. For a really good compendium of science on this see Timothy D. Wilson's _Strangers to Ourselves: Discovering the Adaptive Unconscious_ (Belknap Harvard UP 2002). 4. Suffering 1. Finally, all that has to do with cognition, as if it were somehow distinct from body and suffering. And such a supposition is undercut by what we know about the evolution of our neurology. The mechanisms by which pain and torment are experienced are not unique to us. They are shared by others. And because they share the same capacity for torment and pain but may have different cognitive capacities for dealing with that pain, it has been supposed that in fact non-human animals suffer MORE than human animals when they are in pain or afraid or stricken with grief. And because of that we have a duty to treat them with our maximum consideration and care, not less. 5. History of Distinctions in the Guarding of Profit. Privileged human animals have a history of making arbitrary divisions between what they conceive of as "human" and "brutes/animals" in order to justify injustice from which profit is guarded, doing so often even between humans. Men have done this to women. Europeans have done this to Africans. Jeremy Bentham (1748-1832) is actually really good on this point: "The day may come when the rest of the animal creation may acquire those rights which never could have been witholden from them but by the hand of tyranny. The French have already discovered that the blackness of the skin is no reason why a human being should be abandoned without redress to the caprice of a tormentor. It may one day come to be recognized that the number of the legs, the villosity of the skin, or the termination of the os sacrum, are reasons equally insufficient for abandoning a sensitive being to the same fate. What else is it that should trace the insuperable line? Is it the faculty of reason, or perhaps the faculty of discourse? But a full-grown horse or dog is beyond comparison a more rational, as well as a more conversable animal, than an infant of a day, or a week, or even a month, old. But suppose they were otherwise, what would it avail? The question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but, Can they suffer?" They can suffer. And it is also supposed that they suffer even more than human animals when they are in pain. 6. MPG (Suffering 2). Given how little we know of ourselves and the others here with us, it might be best to behave with Maximum Possible Generosity. What that means for someone is up to them to decide, maybe. I like what Matthew Calarco says on this point: "Following Levinas, ethics can be generally defined as an interruption of my egoism coming from the face of an other that transforms my being in the direction of generosity." (Zoographies: The Question of the Animal from Heidegger to Derrida). I personally wd like to know if Whitman ever read Darwin in his later years, and if so what he thought of it, given how empathic WW was and what Darwin's thought has given us in terms of destroying our own species' narcissism. Gabe On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 1:26 PM, Michael Snider wrote: > > Pain, of course. But not the sense that "I" am suffering, because no other animal has a self-model, a sense of selfhood ( http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Self_models). Associations between particular situations/events and their frequently experienced sequlae, yes, but not "oh boy, it's that nice woman who feeds me"; no "if I wag my tail he'll know I want to be friends": only a creature with a self model can do those things, and that means only humans, at least on this planet. > > > www.mikesnider.org > On Nov 5, 2011, at 10:09, stephen russell wrote: > > Wouldn't it be fair to say that non-human animals feel pain? They lack the cognitive software called language. They can't tell us what they feel. But when we see a dog wag its tail, we can at least infer that the animal isn't angry or fearful. Animals have a nervous system. Beat them and they will show their discomfort. This be neurologically tested. Although such a test is absurd. We know when a fellow creature (human or non-human) is feeling pain. > > Has anyone on the list seriously looked into this matter aside from Gabriel Gudding? Again, Peter Singer, one of the most distinguished philosophers in this country has been writing about animal rights for years. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sat Nov 5 19:02:29 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 19:02:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <29420631.1320534150418.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Sat Nov 5 20:29:42 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 17:29:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <29420631.1320534150418.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <29420631.1320534150418.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1320539382.16465.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I was waiting for an answer to your question, too, Mark. Here's another:? If all mammals "feel, grieve, love, want, wish, feel surprise,heartache, anger, disgust"--basically have all the complex emotions that humans do--then why don't they have to choose to stop eating meat, too?? Shouldn't they be held to the same moral and ethical standards as human animals? JohnJ >________________________________ >From: "junction at earthlink.net" >To: NewPoetry List >Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2011 7:02 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > >So, let's be Benthamite for the moment. I've presented this several times before in this discussion without it being addressed, presumably because it's one of those things not dreamt of in your philosophies. All animals are destined to experience terror and pain. "Wild" animals rarely experience anything else. The good shepherd loves and protects his sheep until he skins and eats them. Until the last few moments they live rather less stressful lives than their undomesticated cousins, and they often live longer. With the institutionalization of more humane treatment their lives, until those moments, would be better still. In Britain the slaughter of calves for veal has been outlawed, for instance, and feed lots in the US would disappear if cattle were no longer raised on marginal land (a very small amount of our meat production comes from the rangeland of Arizona, for instance, where a cow needs 550-650 acres to feed itself and remains fashionably slim, as opposed to Florida, which produces a lot of our meat, where a cow needs 35 acres and like human Floridians tends towards portliness). > >If that were the case, wouldn't your logic dictate that we domesticate all animals? > >A few comments, some of which you'll probably like. I reference them to your numbers. > >1. You might want to throw away your copy of Piaget and read Vygotsky, who demonstrated a long time ago that P got it wrong re: the autistic stage. The change happens a lot earlier than 4. Also check out How Babies Think in the July 2010 Scientific American for a good overview of the latest research. > >3. Nonsense, and patently so. There are a lot of mammals whose contact with others of their species is transitory. Bears know their mothers and sibs for a year or so, but never their fathers or, if male, their offspring, and mother bears have no special feeling for their grown cubs, nor sibs for each other. You can probably come up with other examples yourself. > >3. (the second one). What does "humans actually are mostly unconscious, with a very small part of themselves being awake" mean? > >5. Only semi-nonsense. Human cultures are too diverse to generalize in this manner. I suppose it's a matter of what you mean by profit. Does that include survival? How about if we reconcieve the relationships between male and female based on the generality, not the elites for whom the property laws were developed. Is a functioning division of labor in a situation of sparsity what you mean by profit? >"It is also supposed that they suffer even more than human animals." By whom, the we you invoke throughout? May be true, but who's to measure? > > > >-----Original Message----- >>From: gabriel gudding >>Sent: Nov 5, 2011 6:19 PM >>To: NewPoetry List >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >> >>Hi Michael, >> >>On the idea that an I that suffers in a self-aware manner can be used to constitute a distinguishing criterion between beings we kill and beings we accord bodily and mental sovereignty, this is a very important issue and has an interesting history, so, a couple replies. And thanks for bringing it up.? >> >>1. Inconsistent application among human animals without theory of mind. We don't do this consistently even among human animals. We accord babies and children under 4 compassionate sovereignty and care, even though we know that human animals do not develop a theory of mind (the knowledge that one is a "one" coupled with the understanding/suspicion that others also have a mind) until age 4. We don't kill or ill-treat other human animals who have suffered severe cognitive damage, either congenitally, genetically, by car accidents and the like, or by senescent dementia or for any other reason. We accord all such human animals, with very few exceptions, bodily and mental dignity. >> >>2. Mind in them. We actually know very little about the varieties of self-conception and cognition possible among non-human animals. We do know that pigs likely have a theory of mind, along with several other species of animals. We also know that cognitive capacities of many animals are shockingly developed. Chimps (eg) consistently beat humans on certain memory tests. We know the same for many species of birds. We know that sheep remember and recognize faces of researches and other sheep for at least three years, with no intervening visits. We know that pigs recognize their own faces and can distinguish themselves in mirrors from other pigs and remember individual humans for many many years.? >> >> >>3. Family in them. If they are mammals, they have families. As Paul MacLean sd, "The history of the evolution of mammals is the history of the development of a family way of life." They play. They parent. They grieve. If they are a mammal, their emotions are the emotions of a family-oriented being.? >> >>3. Mind in us. The idea that human animals have some miraculous self-conception is actually false. In a phrase, humans actually are mostly unconscious, with a very small part of themselves being awake. This also is settled science. For a really good compendium of science on this see Timothy D. Wilson's _Strangers to Ourselves: Discovering the Adaptive Unconscious_ (Belknap Harvard UP 2002). >> >>4. Suffering 1. Finally, all that has to do with cognition, as if it were somehow distinct from body and suffering. And such a supposition is undercut by what we know about the evolution of our neurology. The mechanisms by which pain and torment are experienced are not unique to us. They are shared by others. And because they share the same capacity for torment and pain but may have different cognitive capacities for dealing with that pain, it has been supposed that in fact non-human animals suffer MORE than human animals when they are in pain or afraid or stricken with grief. And because of that we have a duty to treat them with our maximum consideration and care, not less. >> >>5. History of Distinctions in the Guarding of Profit. Privileged human animals have a history of making arbitrary divisions between what they conceive of as "human" and "brutes/animals" in order to justify injustice from which profit is guarded, doing so often even between humans. Men have done this to women. Europeans have done this to Africans. Jeremy Bentham (1748-1832) is actually really good on this point: >> >>"The day may come when the rest of the animal creation may acquire those rights which never could have been witholden from them but by the hand of tyranny. The French have already discovered that the blackness of the skin is no reason why a human being should be abandoned without redress to the caprice of a tormentor. It may one day come to be recognized that the number of the legs, the villosity of the skin, or the termination of the os sacrum, are reasons equally insufficient for abandoning a sensitive being to the same fate. What else is it that should trace the insuperable line? Is it the faculty of reason, or perhaps the faculty of discourse? But a full-grown horse or dog is beyond comparison a more rational, as well as a more conversable animal, than an infant of a day, or a week, or even a month, old. But suppose they were otherwise, what would it avail? The question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they?talk? but, Can they?suffer?" >> >>They can suffer. And it is also supposed that they suffer even more than human animals when they are in pain. >> >>6. MPG (Suffering 2). Given how little we know of ourselves and the others here with us, it might be best to behave with Maximum Possible Generosity. What that means for someone is up to them to decide, maybe. I like what Matthew Calarco says on this point: "Following Levinas, ethics can be generally defined as an interruption of my egoism coming from the face of an other that transforms my being in the direction of generosity." (Zoographies: The Question of the Animal from Heidegger to Derrida). >> >>I personally wd like to know if Whitman ever read Darwin in his later years, and if so what he thought of it, given how empathic WW was and what Darwin's thought has given us in terms of destroying our own species' narcissism. >> >>Gabe >>On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 1:26 PM, Michael Snider wrote: >>> >>> Pain, of course. But not the sense that "I" am suffering, because ?no other animal has a self-model, a sense of selfhood (http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Self_models). Associations between particular situations/events and their frequently experienced sequlae, yes, but not "oh boy, it's that nice woman who feeds me"; no "if I wag my tail he'll know I want to be friends": only a creature with a self model can do those things, and that means only humans, at least on this planet. >>> >>> >>> www.mikesnider.org >>> On Nov 5, 2011, at 10:09, stephen russell wrote: >>> >>> Wouldn't it be fair to say that non-human animals feel pain? They lack the cognitive software called language. They can't tell us what they feel. But when we see a dog wag its tail, we can at least infer that the animal isn't angry or fearful. Animals have a nervous system. Beat them and they will show their discomfort. This be neurologically tested. Although such a test is absurd. We know when a fellow creature (human or non-human) is feeling pain. >>> >>> Has anyone on the list seriously looked into this matter aside from Gabriel Gudding? Again, Peter Singer, one of the most distinguished philosophers in this country has been writing about animal rights for years. >>> >> >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Sat Nov 5 19:26:21 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2011 18:26:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Duhamel-Seaton Exercise In-Reply-To: <36B57CE7-F30B-46AA-AB31-04C752DFBE66@gmail.com> References: <1845145626.1404033.1320514637903.JavaMail.root@sz0153a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net> <36B57CE7-F30B-46AA-AB31-04C752DFBE66@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EB5C61D.1040504@louisiana.edu> The exercise certainly strikes me as a bad one to give as a visitor to a high school class you don't see every day. And it strikes me, too, as unlike Duhamel and Seaton (who are marvelously playful, sometimes ribald, poets, separately and collaboratively) to do something intentionally that would raise so many hackles. So maybe, as Carol says, they're not used to working with high-schoolers. (I'm trying to imagine how embarrassed, shocked, angry, affronted, baffled, etc., I might have been if someone had visited my school and done something like this; and since that's the stone age I'm talking about, how any of the young people I know best now might have reacted--how they might have _felt_.) I think the poets really did choose an iffy exercise, that they read and ill-chosen poem, and that someone with an axe to grind (I'd say the "Head of the School's Upper Division," David Schiller) is trying to redirect any outrage (which was caused by offending language by _students_) onto Duhamel and Seaton. It has that perfect storm feel, and it's clear that the poets, when they realized what had happened, were pretty shocked. There's a more detailed description of the events here: http://gothamist.com/2011/11/05/embarrassing_horace_manns_poetry_ex.php. The poem, by the way, "Litany of our Fathers," is in their co-written book, _Exquisite Politics_. It heaps up violent, aggressive language all over itself--a crazy provocation for school children, I think--and also lots of the anaphoric structures I associate with Duhamel. It runs five pages in the book, and I can't find it online, so I'll just type up a sampling here. First, the beginning: Father of lawn mowers and rakes, we demand you hear us Father of belches and Superbowls, deliver now Father most injurious, father of secrets and shame, father of white lies and tax evasion, pay us back Father at the bottom of the stairs yelling, "Get down here," pay us back Father who left us, father who stayed behind but never said a word, pay us back Father who taught nigger, faggot, bitch, father who farted and laughed, pay us back Father on the toilet reading Playboy, pay us back Father tickling his child to inconstancy, pay us back Father of suburban household, leaving early, getting home late, pay us back Father playing lotto, pay us back Disowning father of the pregnant bride, pay us back Father who has nothing to say when his grown kids call, pay us back Dilatory father, father of cocaine and drug busts, pay us back * * * * * * * * And then, a page later, some of the stuff that must have upset Dr. Schiller: Motherfucker most unfaithful, leave us alone Motherfucker who covets virgins, leave us alone Motherfucker most impatient, leave us alone Cheap motherfucker, leave us alone Motherfucker most demanding of obedience, leave us alone Motherfucker, model of vice, leave us alone Motherfucker, power player, leave us alone * * * * * * * * * And so on for another half a dozen or so similar lines. Then on the next page, there's this sequence: Through your Swiss bank accounts, deliver now Through your memory of being teased on the playground, deliver now Through your memory of the day your first pet died, deliver now Through Raisinettes and Jujubes, deliver now Through the gums under your false teeth, deliver now Through your sensitive nipples, deliver now Through your need for hair transplants, deliver now Through your love handles and pot bellies, deliver now Through your prostate problems, deliver now [**this is "prostrate problems" in the book--an error, I hope] * * * * * * * * And this too goes on for a while--too long, from my perspective, perhaps not long enough from another. And finally, there's this from yesterday's Horace Mann Record: Stu?dent com?ments ranged from expres?sions of shock to apolo?gies from stu?dents who had read cards in the morn?ing. Oth?ers said they had new per?spec?tives of them?selves and their class?mates. "For the past five years I felt like peo?ple looked at me like they looked at them?selves. After this assem?bly I ques?tion that. Do they look at me dif?fer?ently?" one stu?dent asked. The meet?ing pre?sented an oppor?tu?nity for stu?dents and fac?ulty to "eval?u?ate our?selves as a com?mu?nity" and address the under?ly?ing issue of what went wrong in the first assem?bly, giv?ing a safe space for stu?dents to talk its per?sonal effects, Irizarry said. "We were not the best ver?sions of our?selves and that assem?bly does not define us," For?eign Lan?guage teacher Pilar Valen?cia said. Schiller's let?ter to par?ents said, "This sit?u?a?tion requires us to take steps to pre?vent a recur?rence of what hap?pened in the morn?ing assem?bly. We will review the process gov?ern?ing the con?tent of all assem?blies to ensure that this con?tent is appro?pri?ate and con?forms to our School val?ues. We will con?tinue to hold meet?ings in which stu?dents, fac?ulty, and staff can speak their minds, ask their ques?tions, and give voice to their con?cerns. We will ensure that this event is put into con?text and becomes a teach?able moment for stu?dents, fac?ulty, staff, and the entire School community." Jerry On 11/5/2011 5:02 PM, Carol Dorf wrote: > Seems to me this is an example of an exercise that might work in a > classroom of thirty people, but not in an assembly where interaction > between students and teachers is minimal. It seems unlikely that the > Duchamel and the other poet had spent much time with high school > students. > > Carol > TalkingWriting.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 20:56:59 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 19:56:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <29420631.1320534150418.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <29420631.1320534150418.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Hi Mark, Painting the questions and findings of dedicated scientists and moral and political philosophers "nonsense" is an effective way of declaring immunity to their ideas. If you are curious as to the three decades of findings Dr Wilson points to in his book, I recommend it highly, in great part bc of the massive bibliography at the back referring to the compendium of work on this. I was kind of amazed by the book myself. Nobel laureate Daniel Kahneman mentions Wilson's findings as key to his own research. Your question in your first paragraph was answered in previous parts of the conversation. Gabe On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 6:02 PM, wrote: > So, let's be Benthamite for the moment. I've presented this several times > before in this discussion without it being addressed, presumably because > it's one of those things not dreamt of in your philosophies. All animals > are destined to experience terror and pain. "Wild" animals rarely > experience anything else. The good shepherd loves and protects his sheep > until he skins and eats them. Until the last few moments they live rather > less stressful lives than their undomesticated cousins, and they often live > longer. With the institutionalization of more humane treatment their lives, > until those moments, would be better still. In Britain the slaughter of > calves for veal has been outlawed, for instance, and feed lots in the US > would disappear if cattle were no longer raised on marginal land (a very > small amount of our meat production comes from the rangeland of Arizona, > for instance, where a cow needs 550-650 acres to feed itself and remains > fashionably slim, as opposed to Florida, which produces a lot of our meat, > where a cow needs 35 acres and like human Floridians tends towards > portliness). > > If that were the case, wouldn't your logic dictate that we domesticate all > animals? > > A few comments, some of which you'll probably like. I reference them to > your numbers. > > 1. You might want to throw away your copy of Piaget and read Vygotsky, who > demonstrated a long time ago that P got it wrong re: the autistic stage. > The change happens a lot earlier than 4. Also check out How Babies Think in > the July 2010 Scientific American for a good overview of the latest > research. > > 3. Nonsense, and patently so. There are a lot of mammals whose contact > with others of their species is transitory. Bears know their mothers and > sibs for a year or so, but never their fathers or, if male, their > offspring, and mother bears have no special feeling for their grown cubs, > nor sibs for each other. You can probably come up with other examples > yourself. > > 3. (the second one). What does "*humans actually are mostly unconscious,*with a very small part of themselves being awake" mean? > > 5. Only semi-nonsense. Human cultures are too diverse to generalize in > this manner. I suppose it's a matter of what you mean by profit. Does that > include survival? How about if we reconcieve the relationships between male > and female based on the generality, not the elites for whom the property > laws were developed. Is a functioning division of labor in a situation of > sparsity what you mean by profit? > "It is also supposed that they suffer even more than human animals." By > whom, the we you invoke throughout? May be true, but who's to measure? > > > -----Original Message----- > From: gabriel gudding ** > Sent: Nov 5, 2011 6:19 PM > To: NewPoetry List ** > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > Hi Michael, > > On the idea that an I that suffers in a self-aware manner can be used to > constitute a distinguishing criterion between beings we kill and beings we > accord bodily and mental sovereignty, this is a very important issue and > has an interesting history, so, a couple replies. And thanks for bringing > it up. > > 1. Inconsistent application among human animals without theory of mind. We > don't do this consistently even among human animals. We accord babies and > children under 4 compassionate sovereignty and care, even though we know > that human animals do not develop a theory of mind (the knowledge that one > is a "one" coupled with the understanding/suspicion that others also have a > mind) until age 4. We don't kill or ill-treat other human animals who have > suffered severe cognitive damage, either congenitally, genetically, by car > accidents and the like, or by senescent dementia or for any other reason. > We accord all such human animals, with very few exceptions, bodily and > mental dignity. > > 2. Mind in them. We actually know very little about the varieties of > self-conception and cognition possible among non-human animals. We do know > that pigs likely have a theory of mind, along with several other species of > animals. We also know that cognitive capacities of many animals are > shockingly developed. Chimps (eg) consistently beat humans on certain > memory tests. We know the same for many species of birds. We know that > sheep remember and recognize faces of researches and other sheep for at > least three years, with no intervening visits. We know that pigs recognize > their own faces and can distinguish themselves in mirrors from other pigs > and remember individual humans for many many years. > > 3. Family in them. If they are mammals, they have families. As Paul > MacLean sd, "The history of the evolution of mammals is the history of the > development of a family way of life." They play. They parent. They grieve. > If they are a mammal, their emotions are the emotions of a family-oriented > being. > > 3. Mind in us. The idea that human animals have some miraculous > self-conception is actually false. In a phrase, *humans actually are > mostly unconscious,* with a very small part of themselves being awake. > This also is settled science. For a really good compendium of science on > this see Timothy D. Wilson's _Strangers to Ourselves: Discovering the > Adaptive Unconscious_ (Belknap Harvard UP 2002). > > 4. Suffering 1. Finally, all that has to do with cognition, as if it were > somehow distinct from body and suffering. And such a supposition is > undercut by what we know about the evolution of our neurology. The > mechanisms by which pain and torment are experienced are not unique to us. > They are shared by others. And because they share the same capacity for > torment and pain but may have different cognitive capacities for dealing > with that pain, it has been supposed that in fact non-human animals suffer > MORE than human animals when they are in pain or afraid or stricken with > grief. And because of that we have a duty to treat them with our maximum > consideration and care, not less. > > 5. History of Distinctions in the Guarding of Profit. Privileged human > animals have a history of making arbitrary divisions between what they > conceive of as "human" and "brutes/animals" in order to justify injustice > from which profit is guarded, doing so often even between humans. Men have > done this to women. Europeans have done this to Africans. Jeremy Bentham > (1748-1832) is actually really good on this point: > > "The day may come when the rest of the animal creation may acquire those > rights which never could have been witholden from them but by the hand of > tyranny. The French have already discovered that the blackness of the skin > is no reason why a human being should be abandoned without redress to the > caprice of a tormentor. It may one day come to be recognized that the > number of the legs, the villosity of the skin, or the termination of the os > sacrum, are reasons equally insufficient for abandoning a sensitive being > to the same fate. What else is it that should trace the insuperable line? > Is it the faculty of reason, or perhaps the faculty of discourse? But a > full-grown horse or dog is beyond comparison a more rational, as well as a > more conversable animal, than an infant of a day, or a week, or even a > month, old. But suppose they were otherwise, what would it avail? The > question is not, Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but, Can they suffer?" > > They can suffer. And it is also supposed that they suffer even more than > human animals when they are in pain. > > 6. MPG (Suffering 2). Given how little we know of ourselves and the others > here with us, it might be best to behave with Maximum Possible Generosity. > What that means for someone is up to them to decide, maybe. I like what > Matthew Calarco says on this point: "Following Levinas, ethics can be > generally defined as an interruption of my egoism coming from the face of > an other that transforms my being in the direction of generosity." > (Zoographies: The Question of the Animal from Heidegger to Derrida). > > I personally wd like to know if Whitman ever read Darwin in his later > years, and if so what he thought of it, given how empathic WW was and what > Darwin's thought has given us in terms of destroying our own species' > narcissism. > > Gabe > > On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 1:26 PM, Michael Snider > wrote: > > > > Pain, of course. But not the sense that "I" am suffering, because no > other animal has a self-model, a sense of selfhood ( > http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Self_models). Associations between > particular situations/events and their frequently experienced sequlae, yes, > but not "oh boy, it's that nice woman who feeds me"; no "if I wag my tail > he'll know I want to be friends": only a creature with a self model can do > those things, and that means only humans, at least on this planet. > > > > > > www.mikesnider.org > > On Nov 5, 2011, at 10:09, stephen russell > wrote: > > > > Wouldn't it be fair to say that non-human animals feel pain? They lack > the cognitive software called language. They can't tell us what they feel. > But when we see a dog wag its tail, we can at least infer that the animal > isn't angry or fearful. Animals have a nervous system. Beat them and they > will show their discomfort. This be neurologically tested. Although such a > test is absurd. We know when a fellow creature (human or non-human) is > feeling pain. > > > > Has anyone on the list seriously looked into this matter aside from > Gabriel Gudding? Again, Peter Singer, one of the most distinguished > philosophers in this country has been writing about animal rights for years. > > > **** > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sat Nov 5 21:08:12 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 21:08:12 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <25364262.1320541693293.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Sat Nov 5 21:30:05 2011 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 20:30:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption References: <8668366.1320505542087.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net><1320517868.20118.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9426B365211D1D468416FFC229EA831828C543@thorium.ripon.college> I just taught Louisa May's wonderful fictionalization of the experience, "Transcendental Wild Oats." It's pretty funny. To my great surprise, none other than Nathaniel Hawthorne put in some brief time at Fruitlands. ================================ Home page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================== -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of Halvard Johnson Sent: Sat 11/5/2011 1:52 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Anyone know of Amos Bronson Alcott's Fruitlands, where only aspiring vegetables would be eaten: i.e. those that grew upwards toward Heaven rather than (like potatoes, carrots, etc.) grew downwards toward Hell? Serving the tri-state area. Hal -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3098 bytes Desc: not available URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 21:49:29 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 20:49:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <25364262.1320541693293.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <25364262.1320541693293.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: "The history of the evolution of mammals is the history of the development of a family way of life." - Paul D. MacLean You can't get much more "respected" than Paul D. MacLean. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_D._MacLean Declaring things nonsense is also a very effective prophylactic against learning something new. Reading "critically" implies, first, reading. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sat Nov 5 22:22:18 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 22:22:18 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <28937675.1320546138838.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> OK, I have a hard time with true believers, and an extra hard time with proselytizing true believers. Sorry, Gabe. But here's what I really think: This kind of argument is a sideshow, because: 1. The distinction between animals that are more like us and animals less like us--a cow on the one hand and a fish or an ant on the other--is sentimental. All living things are driven to live and to avoid death, except in special circumstances. 2. Population is increasing and the percentage living in abject poverty is diminishing. Some will choose to be vegetarians, but the great majority of newly-empowered consumers will want animal protein, and in greater quantities. This is what's been happening so far, and there's no reason to suspect that that will change, barring the degradation of the environment to such an extent that animal protein becomes prohibitively expensive. In which case we'll have more problems than what's on the plate. Maybe I'm wrong--perhaps with sufficient time most could be persuaded to change their ways. We don't have that kind of time--this is a matter of the next fifty years. 3. With some of the most productive land soon to be under water, a lot more soon to be under concrete, most of the world's acquifers being sucked dry, and the oceans acidifying, the issue becomes better management of resources. So, crops, and animal protein, need to be produced in the least environmentally destructive ways. This will require two things: an abandoning of the idea of "nature," which has always been a social construct; and an unprecedented degree of cooperation, world-wide. I'm reasonably certain that the latter won't happen until a day after it's too late--look at the state of debate on the environment in the US. And the former means the loss of much that I most love. Tant pis. 4. But that's the issue, not whether we're comfortable eating animals we identify with or animals we don't. 5. I don't think poetry will change any of this. Best, Mark From junction at earthlink.net Sat Nov 5 22:35:58 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 22:35:58 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <16695789.1320546959021.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sat Nov 5 22:38:51 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 22:38:51 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <30382533.1320547131247.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I should add that if we don't succeed in dealing with the mega-environmental issues a great many species will be toast whether or not we like to eat them. -----Original Message----- >From: junction at earthlink.net >Sent: Nov 5, 2011 10:22 PM >To: NewPoetry >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > >OK, I have a hard time with true believers, and an extra hard time with proselytizing true believers. Sorry, Gabe. But here's what I really think: > >This kind of argument is a sideshow, because: > >1. The distinction between animals that are more like us and animals less like us--a cow on the one hand and a fish or an ant on the other--is sentimental. All living things are driven to live and to avoid death, except in special circumstances. > >2. Population is increasing and the percentage living in abject poverty is diminishing. Some will choose to be vegetarians, but the great majority of newly-empowered consumers will want animal protein, and in greater quantities. This is what's been happening so far, and there's no reason to suspect that that will change, barring the degradation of the environment to such an extent that animal protein becomes prohibitively expensive. In which case we'll have more problems than what's on the plate. Maybe I'm wrong--perhaps with sufficient time most could be persuaded to change their ways. We don't have that kind of time--this is a matter of the next fifty years. > >3. With some of the most productive land soon to be under water, a lot more soon to be under concrete, most of the world's acquifers being sucked dry, and the oceans acidifying, the issue becomes better management of resources. So, crops, and animal protein, need to be produced in the least environmentally destructive ways. This will require two things: an abandoning of the idea of "nature," which has always been a social construct; and an unprecedented degree of cooperation, world-wide. I'm reasonably certain that the latter won't happen until a day after it's too late--look at the state of debate on the environment in the US. And the former means the loss of much that I most love. Tant pis. > >4. But that's the issue, not whether we're comfortable eating animals we identify with or animals we don't. > >5. I don't think poetry will change any of this. > >Best, > >Mark >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Sat Nov 5 22:40:01 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 22:40:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <28937675.1320546138838.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <28937675.1320546138838.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <717CADFA-B4F8-48E2-8410-7E251E93EE5C@mikesnider.org> My thoughts almost exactly -- with the possible exception that it seems to me that suffering, as opposed to pain or discomfort, is possible only in creatures with a sense of self, and it appears to me that the evidence indicates that such a sense is extremely rare and possibly unique to humans. Much will be lost, as you note in #3. www.mikesnider.org On Nov 5, 2011, at 22:22, junction at earthlink.net wrote: > OK, I have a hard time with true believers, and an extra hard time with proselytizing true believers. Sorry, Gabe. But here's what I really think: > > This kind of argument is a sideshow, because: > > 1. The distinction between animals that are more like us and animals less like us--a cow on the one hand and a fish or an ant on the other--is sentimental. All living things are driven to live and to avoid death, except in special circumstances. > > 2. Population is increasing and the percentage living in abject poverty is diminishing. Some will choose to be vegetarians, but the great majority of newly-empowered consumers will want animal protein, and in greater quantities. This is what's been happening so far, and there's no reason to suspect that that will change, barring the degradation of the environment to such an extent that animal protein becomes prohibitively expensive. In which case we'll have more problems than what's on the plate. Maybe I'm wrong--perhaps with sufficient time most could be persuaded to change their ways. We don't have that kind of time--this is a matter of the next fifty years. > > 3. With some of the most productive land soon to be under water, a lot more soon to be under concrete, most of the world's acquifers being sucked dry, and the oceans acidifying, the issue becomes better management of resources. So, crops, and animal protein, need to be produced in the least environmentally destructive ways. This will require two things: an abandoning of the idea of "nature," which has always been a social construct; and an unprecedented degree of cooperation, world-wide. I'm reasonably certain that the latter won't happen until a day after it's too late--look at the state of debate on the environment in the US. And the former means the loss of much that I most love. Tant pis. > > 4. But that's the issue, not whether we're comfortable eating animals we identify with or animals we don't. > > 5. I don't think poetry will change any of this. > > Best, > > Mark > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From junction at earthlink.net Sat Nov 5 22:56:13 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 22:56:13 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <32388106.1320548174102.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> When I was in the whitmanic phase of my adolescence I trekked to the top of Swiftcurrent Pass in Glacier National Park. It bestrides the continental divide, and I thought that that's where my ashes should be scattered--that way I would spread out to become the continent. Hey, I was thirteen. It was also the most beautiful place I'd ever been. Surrounded by glaciers and peaks. The memory stuck, and I told my kid that that's where I wanted to be, but not for the egotistically sublime reasons of my adolescence. I just wanted to make sure he got there. But the glaciers are gone, along with much of the endemic vegetation. -----Original Message----- >From: Michael Snider >Sent: Nov 5, 2011 10:40 PM >To: NewPoetry List >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > >My thoughts almost exactly -- with the possible exception that it seems to me that suffering, as opposed to pain or discomfort, is possible only in creatures with a sense of self, and it appears to me that the evidence indicates that such a sense is extremely rare and possibly unique to humans. > >Much will be lost, as you note in #3. > >www.mikesnider.org > >On Nov 5, 2011, at 22:22, junction at earthlink.net wrote: > >> OK, I have a hard time with true believers, and an extra hard time with proselytizing true believers. Sorry, Gabe. But here's what I really think: >> >> This kind of argument is a sideshow, because: >> >> 1. The distinction between animals that are more like us and animals less like us--a cow on the one hand and a fish or an ant on the other--is sentimental. All living things are driven to live and to avoid death, except in special circumstances. >> >> 2. Population is increasing and the percentage living in abject poverty is diminishing. Some will choose to be vegetarians, but the great majority of newly-empowered consumers will want animal protein, and in greater quantities. This is what's been happening so far, and there's no reason to suspect that that will change, barring the degradation of the environment to such an extent that animal protein becomes prohibitively expensive. In which case we'll have more problems than what's on the plate. Maybe I'm wrong--perhaps with sufficient time most could be persuaded to change their ways. We don't have that kind of time--this is a matter of the next fifty years. >> >> 3. With some of the most productive land soon to be under water, a lot more soon to be under concrete, most of the world's acquifers being sucked dry, and the oceans acidifying, the issue becomes better management of resources. So, crops, and animal protein, need to be produced in the least environmentally destructive ways. This will require two things: an abandoning of the idea of "nature," which has always been a social construct; and an unprecedented degree of cooperation, world-wide. I'm reasonably certain that the latter won't happen until a day after it's too late--look at the state of debate on the environment in the US. And the former means the loss of much that I most love. Tant pis. >> >> 4. But that's the issue, not whether we're comfortable eating animals we identify with or animals we don't. >> >> 5. I don't think poetry will change any of this. >> >> Best, >> >> Mark >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 00:14:23 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 23:14:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <9426B365211D1D468416FFC229EA831828C543@thorium.ripon.college> References: <8668366.1320505542087.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1320517868.20118.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <9426B365211D1D468416FFC229EA831828C543@thorium.ripon.college> Message-ID: Hi Mark, If you're going to call names, why don't you do it substantively, in a way that opens out to learning instead of in toward ... whatever it is that's bothering you. :) So, in turn, here are some names for you -- real ones -- so you can take your arguments yourself to some of the scientific sources for 1-7, each of whom is a, in your terms, "respected" scientist: Frans de Waal (v important), Antonio Damasio, J. A. Bargh (v important) J. Archer, Richard Dawkins, Patricia Churchland, Marc Bekoff, Jaak Panksepp (v important), Jane Goodall, T. G. Power, M. Ridley, D. Rothenberg, Allen Schoen, Kenneth J. Shapiro, Paul D. MacLean, Paul Churchland, Timothy D. Wilson, E. Sober and D. S. Wilson, Stuart Walton, L. Irvine. Some of the neuroethicists and moral and political philosophers: J. M. Coetzee, Martha Nussbaum, Paul Churchland, Tom Regan, Peter Singer, Carol J Adams, Matthew Calarco, Sam Harris. That took about 3 minutes work to write out. It's about 3 months of serious reading. There are others, but these are the ones that came out in 3 minutes. And if you'd like one book to start with, Michael, I'd start with some compendia books by scientists -- people who've studied and observed and had their insights rigorously tested by their community: Marc Bekoff's latest _The Emotional Lives of Animals_ or, as it's addressed to smart but hardcore believers in the old single-sentience theory who don't like the taboo broken that humans only can really suffer, see Donald R. Griffin's _The Question of Animal Awareness: Evolutionary Continuity of Mental Experience_ (1976, revised 1981). Hi John, It would be nice to have a reply to my post about Whitman's "Preface" in answering your query. Catherine, I don't know what an Andreas is but your post was harrowing to me. And David, I still don't know what Fruitlands is. :) But instead of demanding you tell me, and maybe type the book out in a post (a la Mark), I'll look it up myself. :) Warmly Gabe On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 8:30 PM, Graham, David wrote: > I just taught Louisa May's wonderful fictionalization of the experience, > "Transcendental Wild Oats." It's pretty funny. To my great surprise, none > other than Nathaniel Hawthorne put in some brief time at Fruitlands. > > ================================ > Home page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/ > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ==================================== > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of Halvard Johnson > Sent: Sat 11/5/2011 1:52 PM > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > Anyone know of Amos Bronson Alcott's Fruitlands, where only aspiring > vegetables would be eaten: i.e. those that grew upwards toward Heaven > rather than (like potatoes, carrots, etc.) grew downwards toward Hell? > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Nov 6 00:28:20 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 00:28:20 -0400 (GMT-04:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <22492612.1320553700958.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Sun Nov 6 01:25:20 2011 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 00:25:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fruitlands References: <8668366.1320505542087.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net><1320517868.20118.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><9426B365211D1D468416FFC229EA831828C543@thorium.ripon.college> Message-ID: <9426B365211D1D468416FFC229EA831828C544@thorium.ripon.college> Fruitlands: well worth looking up. But I don't mind spilling the beans. One of the many utopian socialist communes that sprang up in the mid-1800s in this country, and which for the most part foundered rapidly. They were, as someone said, dedicated vegetarians, among other things. But as Louisa May Alcott indicated in her fictionalized account of her family's experience at Fruitlands, Transcendental philosophy didn't exactly help them grow crops. For example, right at harvest time, a call of the Oversoul "wafted" most of the men away from the fields, & her mother had to bring in the crops herself, along with the kids. I believe Louisa was about 11 at the time. Ripon, WI, where I teach, was founded a group of utopian New Englanders at roughly the same period. They called their experiment Ceresco. Didn't last long, and what else for overeducated utopians to do?--they founded a college. . . . ======== And David, I still don't know what Fruitlands is. :) But instead of demanding you tell me, and maybe type the book out in a post (a la Mark), I'll look it up myself. :) Warmly Gabe On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 8:30 PM, Graham, David wrote: > I just taught Louisa May's wonderful fictionalization of the experience, > "Transcendental Wild Oats." It's pretty funny. To my great surprise, none > other than Nathaniel Hawthorne put in some brief time at Fruitlands. > > ================================ ================================ Home page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================== -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 3607 bytes Desc: not available URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 01:43:51 2011 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 22:43:51 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fruitlands In-Reply-To: <9426B365211D1D468416FFC229EA831828C544@thorium.ripon.college> References: <8668366.1320505542087.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1320517868.20118.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <9426B365211D1D468416FFC229EA831828C543@thorium.ripon.college> <9426B365211D1D468416FFC229EA831828C544@thorium.ripon.college> Message-ID: thank you David -- the utopians were mostly women, and that's why first trilogy, saints, heretics, female artist hagiography second trilogy (in turnaround for four years), just all female writers third trilogy -- working not that hard because of the backlog -- troubairitz, and the American utopians -- so many of them were female artists, speakers, writers, martyrs as well -- the fourth trilogy is called addendum and I'm not sure -- and I have a distaff trilogy too -- peace and love, Catherine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 01:10:28 2011 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 23:10:28 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <8668366.1320505542087.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <8668366.1320505542087.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: interesting -- because I still want to bring this back to poetry -- this pain question to argue for an articulated emotional intelligence (putting aside an articulated consciousness and intellect and aesthetic) is quite different than to recognise that beings with nervous systems feel pain -- even those lucky ones that learned, over time, to regenerate lost limbs (best we seem to be able to do is get two sets of teeth) pain, instinct -- the neighbor who feeds meat and meat bones to the coyotes, so that they come here to feed and try to attack us, and they aren't the mangy, begging coyotes in the desert, oh, no -- they are my size and would rip up my neck in a second -- especially when I'm bringing groceries home. They eat all our neighborhood's domesticated pets (cats, dogs, hamsters, gerbils and THEIR food) -- the eagles, falcons, vultures flying overhead and freaking out my undomesticated pet parrot drop their --- forget what it is called -- the bundle of waste including bones that birds of prey dump? the humans leave bloody condoms and drug paraphanalia (sp?) I can smell it when there are rats -- the urine -- I recognise a drug deal -- after the root beer car hop job (my specialty was serving bikers), I supervised some kids in the eternal now because they had destroyed their consciousnesses with drugs. I taught them to dust shelves in a shoe shop. day after day, because they couldn't remember. they were not conscious. None of my experiences have led me to writing. Some of my ideas have led me to apply... the most expedient way to apply these is write... Jails and airplanes etc. and rehabs have veggie meals. Hospitals also have veggie meals --- a lot o HFCS crap -- would kill me, and no being could subsist on that food (or call it "food") -- um, but I KNOW from experience that (doesn't feed my writing). now to read the rest of the thread and process that -- Peace, Catherine I am having fun -- hope my comments aren't too much of a trial -- next time you're in hospital or travelling or need snacks or poetry, send me an e (please don't call -- I'm all e). next time you write a poem, send it to me -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 04:16:53 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 10:16:53 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Short Interview with Philip Levine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is terrible: *You?ve read to sparse crowds before? **How about zero? * University of San Francisco, in ?69, after I published my second book. There was one person there, and he?s the guy who drove me. He found a place to park and came in and said, ?Where is everybody?? I said, ?You?re everybody.? On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/06/magazine/philip-levine-still-knows-how-to-make-trouble.html?_r=1&src=tp&smid=fb-share > > *You were recently named America?s poet laureate. > What has been most surprising about the gig? * > How much attention it?s gotten. People like my doctor or the guy who sells > me wine or the people in my gym come up to me and say, ?Oh, Phil, this is > marvelous.? Some of them didn?t even know I was a poet. Now there are mobs > of people when I give readings. I read at a high school in Pennsylvania, > and there were 600 people. > > > > --Jeff Newberry > > -- > Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics > embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and > lived syncopation. ?Yusef Komunyakaa > > http://www.jeffnewberry.com > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Sun Nov 6 05:10:15 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 02:10:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <8668366.1320505542087.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1320517868.20118.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <9426B365211D1D468416FFC229EA831828C543@thorium.ripon.college> Message-ID: <1320574215.52198.YahooMailNeo@web120529.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Really?? I have to reply to a few random sentences pulled from Whitman's Whitmanesque Preface?? The man bellows about everything. Yes, he mentions science.? He also mentions America and nature and politics and beauty and faith and love for all people and his ideas of poetry and poets (which support his style of poetry) amidst a million other things.? He's Whitman, for crying out loud. But, for me, this is part of the problem, mentioning an author or source that backs your opinion as if that alone proves the point.? Nearly everyone can find authors and scientists that support their theories.? Evolution is under attack.? There are scientists that point to holes in the theory.? If I reference a book that argues against evolution, have I proved my point?? If I reference Darwin, have I proved the opposite?? The same is true for many of the tenets of man-made climate change; indeed, any large, complex theory.? And these books, regardless of the perspective, always include lengthy bibliographies.? One group's scientific pioneer is another group/s quack.? (Much of this has to do with funding, which has politicized so much research, and with mass media's publicizing early, pre-peer reviewed results--and oversimplifying & politicizing those results, as well). You can have your beliefs.? I'm fine with that.? I have lots of crazy friends.? (Some of my friends have even declared that I'm the crazy one, but I've seen no definitive studies on that.)? It's the "settled science" declarations that provoke. JohnJ >________________________________ >From: gabriel gudding >To: NewPoetry List >Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 12:14 AM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > >... > > > >Hi John,? > > >It would be nice to have a reply to my post about Whitman's "Preface" in answering your query. > >... > > >Warmly >Gabe > > > > >On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 8:30 PM, Graham, David wrote: > >I just taught Louisa May's wonderful fictionalization of the experience, "Transcendental Wild Oats." ?It's pretty funny. ?To my great surprise, none other than Nathaniel Hawthorne put in some brief time at Fruitlands. >> >>================================ >>Home page: >>http://web.me.com/drjazz/ >> >>Poetry Library: >>http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >>==================================== >> >> >> >> >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of Halvard Johnson >>Sent: Sat 11/5/2011 1:52 PM >>To: NewPoetry List >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >> >> >>Anyone know of Amos Bronson Alcott's Fruitlands, where only aspiring >>vegetables would be eaten: i.e. those that grew upwards toward Heaven >>rather than (like potatoes, carrots, etc.) grew downwards toward Hell? >> >> >>Serving the tri-state area. >> >>Hal >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Nov 6 05:42:06 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 05:42:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Short Interview with Philip Levine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <425FE179C0B344BBB95172CA35F5652B@BobHP> From: Anny Ballardini Sent: Sunday, November 06, 2011 4:16 AM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Short Interview with Philip Levine This is terrible: You?ve read to sparse crowds before? How about zero? University of San Francisco, in ?69, after I published my second book. There was one person there, and he?s the guy who drove me. He found a place to park and came in and said, ?Where is everybody?? I said, ?You?re everybody.? On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/06/magazine/philip-levine-still-knows-how-to-make-trouble.html?_r=1&src=tp&smid=fb-share You were recently named America?s poet laureate. What has been most surprising about the gig? How much attention it?s gotten. People like my doctor or the guy who sells me wine or the people in my gym come up to me and say, ?Oh, Phil, this is marvelous.? Some of them didn?t even know I was a poet. Now there are mobs of people when I give readings. I read at a high school in Pennsylvania, and there were 600 people. No, what is terrible is this: the fact that the morons ignore you?until some other morons in positions of power give you a gold star. Certification, not achievement. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 07:01:43 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 13:01:43 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] The First Lady of Futurism Message-ID: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904836104576558532980331552.html -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 07:03:59 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 13:03:59 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Short Interview with Philip Levine In-Reply-To: <425FE179C0B344BBB95172CA35F5652B@BobHP> References: <425FE179C0B344BBB95172CA35F5652B@BobHP> Message-ID: Believe it or not, Bob, I agree with You! On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 11:42 AM, bob grumman wrote: > > > *From:* Anny Ballardini > *Sent:* Sunday, November 06, 2011 4:16 AM > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] A Short Interview with Philip Levine > > This is terrible: > > *You?ve read to sparse crowds before? **How about zero? * > University of San Francisco, in ?69, after I published my second book. > There was one person there, and he?s the guy who drove me. He found a place > to park and came in and said, ?Where is everybody?? I said, ?You?re > everybody.? > > On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > >> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/06/magazine/philip-levine-still-knows-how-to-make-trouble.html?_r=1&src=tp&smid=fb-share >> >> *You were recently named America?s poet laureate. >> What has been most surprising about the gig? * >> How much attention it?s gotten. People like my doctor or the guy who >> sells me wine or the people in my gym come up to me and say, ?Oh, Phil, >> this is marvelous.? Some of them didn?t even know I was a poet. Now there >> are mobs of people when I give readings. I read at a high school in >> Pennsylvania, and there were 600 people. >> >> No, what is terrible is *this*: the fact that the morons ignore >> you?until some other morons in positions of power give you a gold star. >> Certification, not achievement. >> > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 09:08:32 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 08:08:32 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Short Interview with Philip Levine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Perfect size for an audience. One might be even better. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 3:16 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > This is terrible: > > *You?ve read to sparse crowds before? **How about zero? * > University of San Francisco, in ?69, after I published my second book. > There was one person there, and he?s the guy who drove me. He found a place > to park and came in and said, ?Where is everybody?? I said, ?You?re > everybody.? > > On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > >> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/06/magazine/philip-levine-still-knows-how-to-make-trouble.html?_r=1&src=tp&smid=fb-share >> >> *You were recently named America?s poet laureate. >> What has been most surprising about the gig? * >> How much attention it?s gotten. People like my doctor or the guy who >> sells me wine or the people in my gym come up to me and say, ?Oh, Phil, >> this is marvelous.? Some of them didn?t even know I was a poet. Now there >> are mobs of people when I give readings. I read at a high school in >> Pennsylvania, and there were 600 people. >> >> >> >> --Jeff Newberry >> >> -- >> Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics >> embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and >> lived syncopation. ?Yusef Komunyakaa >> >> http://www.jeffnewberry.com >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Sun Nov 6 09:39:50 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 06:39:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] A Short Interview with Philip Levine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1320590390.22345.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I've been to some poetry readings that have had only five people or fewer. ?Whenever it has happened, I've always found it interesting to watch how the poet reacts. ?Some have huffed and could not refrain from commenting about it, even blaming the organizers for poor promotion. ?(It's never that the poet is just unpopular or unknown or stinks.) ?And nearly all have cut the reading a bit short. ?I even had, when I was one of the organizers, a poet contact me a week before the event to say that we'd better put at least 40 people in the room or it's not worth her while to read. But the amazing one, the one that sticks with me, is the woman who was unfazed, gave a full reading, read engagingly and happily, and answered questions thoughtfully, as if the room were sardined with admirers. ?That was impressive. JohnJ ? >________________________________ >From: Anny Ballardini >To: NewPoetry List >Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 4:16 AM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Short Interview with Philip Levine > > >This is terrible: > > >You?ve read to sparse crowds before? How about zero? >University of San Francisco, in ?69, after I published my second book. There was one person there, and he?s the guy who drove me. He found a place to park and came in and said, ?Where is everybody?? I said, ?You?re everybody.?? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Nov 6 09:52:48 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 09:52:48 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] A Short Interview with Philip Levine Message-ID: <2516933.1320591169383.JavaMail.root@wamui-bucket.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 10:51:38 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 09:51:38 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Short Interview with Philip Levine In-Reply-To: <1320590390.22345.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1320590390.22345.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Lynda and I once attended a reading by Stephen Dixon at a Border's in Towson, Maryland, and the only other attendees were a couple of Dixon's kids. He'd just published his novel *Interstate *to fine reviews, including a page one review in the NYT Book Review. No huffing and chuffing from SD, just a fine reading of a couple sections of the novel. I don't remember if there was a Q&A. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 8:39 AM, John Jeffrey wrote: > I've been to some poetry readings that have had only five people or fewer. > Whenever it has happened, I've always found it interesting to watch how > the poet reacts. Some have huffed and could not refrain from commenting > about it, even blaming the organizers for poor promotion. (It's never that > the poet is just unpopular or unknown or stinks.) And nearly all have cut > the reading a bit short. I even had, when I was one of the organizers, a > poet contact me a week before the event to say that we'd better put at > least 40 people in the room or it's not worth her while to read. > > But the amazing one, the one that sticks with me, is the woman who was > unfazed, gave a full reading, read engagingly and happily, and answered > questions thoughtfully, as if the room were sardined with admirers. That > was impressive. > > JohnJ > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Anny Ballardini > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Sent:* Sunday, November 6, 2011 4:16 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] A Short Interview with Philip Levine > > This is terrible: > > *You?ve read to sparse crowds before? **How about zero? * > University of San Francisco, in ?69, after I published my second book. > There was one person there, and he?s the guy who drove me. He found a place > to park and came in and said, ?Where is everybody?? I said, ?You?re > everybody.? > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 10:59:06 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 09:59:06 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] The First Lady of Futurism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm gonna click on this, Anny. But . . . Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 6:01 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904836104576558532980331552.html > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 11:01:58 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 10:01:58 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] The First Lady of Futurism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: An interesting WSJ review of a new collection of work by Mina Loy. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904836104576558532980331552.html Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 6:01 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904836104576558532980331552.html > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 11:37:04 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 09:37:04 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Short Interview with Philip Levine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I read with Teresa Nicholas, a prose writer, on Friday and there were 30 people in attendance, 24 of them paying customers! Given the venue, the Cafe Santa Ana in the Biblioteca, it felt like a full house. Most of them might have come to hear the prose writer, but I sold four books. Four whole books! Discounted to $100 pesos each! - Jim On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 7:08 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Perfect size for an audience. One might be even better. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 3:16 AM, Anny Ballardini > wrote: > >> This is terrible: >> >> *You?ve read to sparse crowds before? **How about zero? * >> University of San Francisco, in ?69, after I published my second book. >> There was one person there, and he?s the guy who drove me. He found a place >> to park and came in and said, ?Where is everybody?? I said, ?You?re >> everybody.? >> >> On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 7:45 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: >> >>> >>> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/06/magazine/philip-levine-still-knows-how-to-make-trouble.html?_r=1&src=tp&smid=fb-share >>> >>> *You were recently named America?s poet laureate. >>> What has been most surprising about the gig? * >>> How much attention it?s gotten. People like my doctor or the guy who >>> sells me wine or the people in my gym come up to me and say, ?Oh, Phil, >>> this is marvelous.? Some of them didn?t even know I was a poet. Now there >>> are mobs of people when I give readings. I read at a high school in >>> Pennsylvania, and there were 600 people. >>> >>> >>> >>> --Jeff Newberry >>> >>> -- >>> Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics >>> embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and >>> lived syncopation. ?Yusef Komunyakaa >>> >>> http://www.jeffnewberry.com >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Anny Ballardini >> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >> star! >> Friedrich Nietzsche >> >> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >> Giovenale >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Sun Nov 6 11:46:03 2011 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 10:46:03 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Low attendance References: <1320590390.22345.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9426B365211D1D468416FFC229EA831828C545@thorium.ripon.college> One of the weirdest reading experiences I've had occurred at a state college many years back--my reading was co-sponsored by the Poetry Club & the English Dept., but evidently there were some crossed wires or bad feelings between the two, because when I arrived at the venue at the proper time there was no one there except the faculty member who was my contact. I mean zero. He expressed bafflement, said "we always get good turnouts for these readings," etc. After a while one of his colleagues came running into the room and said "Do you realize they're turning people away downstairs?" Turned out that the Poetry Club, deciding for whatever reason that I had not arrived on campus, had marked "Reading cancelled" on all the posters, and instructed the person on the information desk accordingly. That's when things got strange. My sponsor, utterly embarrassed by this turn of events, told me to hold tight & vanished. In about 20 minutes he was back with about 6 rather confused looking individuals. So I proceeded to give my reading. My audience, I learned only afterward, consisted of several of his students he had dragooned from the snack bar by either carrot or stick, I never discovered which; and one administrator type to whom he appealed on grounds of institutional pride. Not a single one of them expected or desired to attend a poetry reading that night. And I must admit it wasn't one of my finest. There was plenty of food & wine to go around at the reception, at least. That wasn't actually my lowest attendance reading. Once I read to my sponsor, his girfriend, and my wife. When I asked if they *really* expected a reading under the circumstances, they all said, yes yes, proceed. So I did. That one went rather well, as I recall. . .. At least they were poetry fans. ================================ Home page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================== -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of Halvard Johnson Sent: Sun 11/6/2011 9:51 AM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Short Interview with Philip Levine Lynda and I once attended a reading by Stephen Dixon at a Border's in Towson, Maryland, and the only other attendees were a couple of Dixon's kids. He'd just published his novel *Interstate *to fine reviews, including a page one review in the NYT Book Review. No huffing and chuffing from SD, just a fine reading of a couple sections of the novel. I don't remember if there was a Q&A. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/ms-tnef Size: 4219 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Sun Nov 6 11:06:36 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2011 10:06:36 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Short Interview with Philip Levine In-Reply-To: <2516933.1320591169383.JavaMail.root@wamui-bucket.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <2516933.1320591169383.JavaMail.root@wamui-bucket.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4EB6B08C.2080008@louisiana.edu> Me, too. I'm sure David Weinstock remembers the time, on our whirlwind tour of Connecticut, we four Connecticut Student Poets read in Winsted to an audience of the guy who invited us and his girlfriend. The four of us did indeed give our complete reading (so we could collect our checks. Checks, I tell you!) and groan on home to our several chateaux. (We were all in my girlfriend's creaky old VW bug, and had a flat in the biting cold halfway home. I don't think David changed the tire, did you? It couldn't have been Kerr-Jarrett; his servants always attended to those things for him. Oh, yes, I suppose it was me. Let the peasant get his hands dirty.) Jerry On 11/6/2011 8:52 AM, junction at earthlink.net wrote: > That's the way to do it. > > It's not always about quality or fame. Carl Rakosi once read to five > very lucky people in a series I was running. I had expected a big > turnout, but there was an all day end-of-the-world rain storm. My own > experience: twice I wound up reading in small towns on the day and > hour that Allen Ginsberg, at the height of his popularity, was reading > down the block. I was surprised that anybody showed up. > > You just do a professional job, and if anyone wants to buy you a drink > afterwards you say thank you. > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Jeffrey > Sent: Nov 6, 2011 9:39 AM > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Short Interview with Philip Levine > > I've been to some poetry readings that have had only five people > or fewer. Whenever it has happened, I've always found it > interesting to watch how the poet reacts. Some have huffed and > could not refrain from commenting about it, even blaming the > organizers for poor promotion. (It's never that the poet is just > unpopular or unknown or stinks.) And nearly all have cut the > reading a bit short. I even had, when I was one of the > organizers, a poet contact me a week before the event to say that > we'd better put at least 40 people in the room or it's not worth > her while to read. > > But the amazing one, the one that sticks with me, is the woman who > was unfazed, gave a full reading, read engagingly and happily, and > answered questions thoughtfully, as if the room were sardined with > admirers. That was impressive. > > JohnJ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* Anny Ballardini > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Sent:* Sunday, November 6, 2011 4:16 AM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] A Short Interview with Philip Levine > > This is terrible: > > *You've read to sparse crowds before? **How about zero? * > University of San Francisco, in '69, after I published my > second book. There was one person there, and he's the guy who > drove me. He found a place to park and came in and said, > "Where is everybody?" I said, "You're everybody." > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From almaginnes at aol.com Sun Nov 6 12:11:20 2011 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 12:11:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Low attendance In-Reply-To: <1307661770.38651.1320598677546.JavaMail.zimbra@core-dkb001.r1000.mail.aol.com> References: <1320590390.22345.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1307661770.38651.1320598677546.JavaMail.zimbra@core-dkb001.r1000.mail.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CE6ABE3CACE4ED-6D4-139963@webmail-d169.sysops.aol.com> I was once booked for a reading on a campus the same night as Nikki Giovanni. I'm not sure where she read that night, but I was in a very large room with very few people. do have to say that they did a very good job of getting my books there and the people who were there were attentive and wanted to be there. The bad reading story is almost a mainstay of the writing life. If you've been at this for any length of time, you probably have a few or have attended a few. A quick note about Levine--the first time I saw him read was at UNC-Chapel Hill in the early/mid 90s. I got to the small building where the reading was supposed to be early and there was a group setting up for some kind of Christian musical. Their music was blaring and they were very friendly and looked puzzled when I asked if there was going to be a reading there. Then a group of overwrought graduate students from the English dept. showed up. Much dialing of phones (this in the days when very few people had cell phones) and consulting with university officials and the Christians were a bit sullenly packing up. Then someone told me that the English dept. had failed to pick up Levine at the airport so he had rented a car and driven to his hotel. When they got him on the phone he told them not to worry about it, that he was busy getting drunk. The building was quickly filled by people there to hear poetry, not a Christian musical and Levine showed up charming and sober. Of course by this time, Levine was assured of crowds wherever he went. -----Original Message----- From: Graham, David To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sun, Nov 6, 2011 11:54 am Subject: [New-Poetry] Low attendance One of the weirdest reading experiences I've had occurred at a state college many years back--my reading was co-sponsored by the Poetry Club & the English Dept., but evidently there were some crossed wires or bad feelings between the two, because when I arrived at the venue at the proper time there was no one there except the faculty member who was my contact. I mean zero. He expressed bafflement, said "we always get good turnouts for these readings," etc. After a while one of his colleagues came running into the room and said "Do you realize they're turning people away downstairs?" Turned out that the Poetry Club, deciding for whatever reason that I had not arrived on campus, had marked "Reading cancelled" on all the posters, and instructed the person on the information desk accordingly. That's when things got strange. My sponsor, utterly embarrassed by this turn of events, told me to hold tight & vanished. In about 20 minutes he was back with about 6 rather confused looking individuals. So I proceeded to give my reading. My audience, I learned only afterward, consisted of several of his students he had dragooned from the snack bar by either carrot or stick, I never discovered which; and one administrator type to whom he appealed on grounds of institutional pride. Not a single one of them expected or desired to attend a poetry reading that night. And I must admit it wasn't one of my finest. There was plenty of food & wine to go around at the reception, at least. That wasn't actually my lowest attendance reading. Once I read to my sponsor, his girfriend, and my wife. When I asked if they *really* expected a reading under the circumstances, they all said, yes yes, proceed. So I did. That one went rather well, as I recall. . .. At least they were poetry fans. ================================ Home page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================== -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu on behalf of Halvard Johnson Sent: Sun 11/6/2011 9:51 AM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A Short Interview with Philip Levine Lynda and I once attended a reading by Stephen Dixon at a Border's in Towson, Maryland, and the only other attendees were a couple of Dixon's kids. He'd just published his novel *Interstate *to fine reviews, including a page one review in the NYT Book Review. No huffing and chuffing from SD, just a fine reading of a couple sections of the novel. I don't remember if there was a Q&A. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 12:39:11 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 11:39:11 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <8668366.1320505542087.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Catherine, I agree those are very different things (emotional intelligence) versus just feeling pain. This is why I'm really taken w/ all the work extending from Darwin's 1872 book on the emotional lives of animals, mostly recently the work of Patricia Churchland (neuroscientist) on mammal neurobiology following Paul MacLean's stuff on mammalian families. The degree to which others unlike us are a bundle of experiences (and sometimes complex thoughts), to which we should accord generosity (even if they can't reciprocate) and kindness, is clearer now than it used to be. And here's where this is a big issue for poetry (for me): I am beginning to wonder how much poetry has contributed to this -- how much poetry has been (and still is, for some) a major part of what Agamben calls "the anthropologic machine": the longstanding ideological action that divides people from brutes (Africans, Women, Poor People, Pigs, Cows, Chickens). It's clear we radically overestimate the specialness of our own inner life while underestimating the inner lives of other animals, misunderstanding the degree to which so much of our emotional life is base-brain. The "love" hormone, the social/familial hormone, oxytocin, is plump in mammals. There is clearly a perceptual problem humans have in considering fellow animals: we even created god in our image, establishing a celestial ape named jesus as the creator of the universe, putting "man" at its center. A species that can do that, while glutting itself to the point of obesity and disease on the bodies of others, should ramp up its own capacities at metacognition, meta-emotion. There are ways of doing that. Vipassana is one. You mention difference between empathy & compassion before -- and I think of that in terms of Levinas' formula that ethics is less egoism + more generosity in the face of an other. I feel like there is a continuum, from less generous to most: empathy ---> compassion ---> lovingkindness. I wonder if humans could actively start cultivating outright generosity of kindness even toward creatures already othered. Empathy ramped up is Compassion, Compassion ramped up is Lovingkindness. There is a wonderful poem from the old Pali Texts, it's about cultivating Lovingkindness. I'll see if I can find my copy. I am taken with those texts because they are (i think) the first we have of extending moral consideration outside what we now might call the human sphere. It seems to accord w/ what WW suggests: "This is what you shall do: Love the earth and sun and the animals, despise riches, give alms to every one that asks, stand up for the stupid and crazy, devote your income and labor to others..." And I can't help but think this project goes to Audre Lorde's insistence that "poetry is not a luxury" and if we discount that, "we give up the future of our worlds." The thing about whatever it is that we are: we do have a particularly good capacity to alter our own minds, to actively reshape our cognition and behavior, even the physical structure of our brains. Within limits, of course, but many non-human animals don't have this capacity to adjust as distinctly to their range of choices. We do, and it might be considered a *duty of beneficence* that we do so on everyone's behalf. A thought anyway. Hi John: I was hoping for a response rather than a riposte. None of the stuff I'm suggesting here hasn't been suggested by others who are markedly not, to use your othering term, crazy. Wd be happy for a considerate, maybe even civil, reply. :) Gabe On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 1:10 AM, Catherine Daly wrote: > interesting -- because I still want to bring this back to poetry -- this > pain question > > to argue for an articulated emotional intelligence (putting aside an > articulated consciousness and intellect and aesthetic) is quite different > than to recognise that beings with nervous systems feel pain -- even those > lucky ones that learned, over time, to regenerate lost limbs (best we seem > to be able to do is get two sets of teeth) > > pain, instinct -- the neighbor who feeds meat and meat bones to the > coyotes, so that they come here to feed and try to attack us, and they > aren't the mangy, begging coyotes in the desert, oh, no -- they are my size > and would rip up my neck in a second -- especially when I'm bringing > groceries home. They eat all our neighborhood's domesticated pets (cats, > dogs, hamsters, gerbils and THEIR food) -- the eagles, falcons, vultures > flying overhead and freaking out my undomesticated pet parrot drop their > --- forget what it is called -- the bundle of waste including bones that > birds of prey dump? > > the humans leave bloody condoms and drug paraphanalia (sp?) > > I can smell it when there are rats -- the urine -- I recognise a drug deal > -- after the root beer car hop job (my specialty was serving bikers), I > supervised some kids in the eternal now because they had destroyed their > consciousnesses with drugs. I taught them to dust shelves in a shoe shop. > day after day, because they couldn't remember. they were not conscious. > > None of my experiences have led me to writing. Some of my ideas have led > me to apply... the most expedient way to apply these is write... > > Jails and airplanes etc. and rehabs have veggie meals. Hospitals also > have veggie meals --- a lot o HFCS crap -- would kill me, and no being > could subsist on that food (or call it "food") -- um, but I KNOW from > experience that (doesn't feed my writing). > > now to read the rest of the thread and process that -- > > Peace, > Catherine > > I am having fun -- hope my comments aren't too much of a trial -- > > next time you're in hospital or travelling or need snacks or poetry, send > me an e (please don't call -- I'm all e). > > next time you write a poem, send it to me > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 12:39:49 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 18:39:49 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jerome Rothenberg @ 80 ! Message-ID: https://jacket2.org/commentary/jerome-rothenberg-80-celebration -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 12:42:19 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 18:42:19 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Short Interview with Philip Levine In-Reply-To: <1320590390.22345.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <1320590390.22345.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes, very professional. The one with 'sardines,' :-) It is anyhow depressing to organize anything when people do not show up, and there are so many events, and besides that people have to work hard and have little free time. On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 3:39 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: > I've been to some poetry readings that have had only five people or fewer. > Whenever it has happened, I've always found it interesting to watch how > the poet reacts. Some have huffed and could not refrain from commenting > about it, even blaming the organizers for poor promotion. (It's never that > the poet is just unpopular or unknown or stinks.) And nearly all have cut > the reading a bit short. I even had, when I was one of the organizers, a > poet contact me a week before the event to say that we'd better put at > least 40 people in the room or it's not worth her while to read. > > But the amazing one, the one that sticks with me, is the woman who was > unfazed, gave a full reading, read engagingly and happily, and answered > questions thoughtfully, as if the room were sardined with admirers. That > was impressive. > > JohnJ > > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Anny Ballardini > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Sent:* Sunday, November 6, 2011 4:16 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] A Short Interview with Philip Levine > > This is terrible: > > *You?ve read to sparse crowds before? **How about zero? * > University of San Francisco, in ?69, after I published my second book. > There was one person there, and he?s the guy who drove me. He found a place > to park and came in and said, ?Where is everybody?? I said, ?You?re > everybody.? > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 12:42:49 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 11:42:49 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Jerome Rothenberg @ 80 ! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Like! :) On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 11:39 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > https://jacket2.org/commentary/jerome-rothenberg-80-celebration > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 12:48:24 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 11:48:24 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] The First Lady of Futurism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I saw this too. And had just read her "Feminist Manifesto" (in Danchev's _100 Manifestos_) with students. She wrote it in I think 1920 or so in response to Marinetti's and the Futurists rabid misogyny and war-mongering rhetoric. But it wasn't published until 1981 bc it was considered too radically progressive. The students and I couldn't help but think how much it might have changed things had it been published then. On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 6:01 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904836104576558532980331552.html > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Sun Nov 6 12:58:03 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 17:58:03 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, , , , , , <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , Message-ID: Gabriel: Well, believe it or not I DO win the older prize. You may be forty-five--that is actually starting to feel young to me!-- but I turned fifty this year, and my oldest daughter is eighteen, which means, she is even MORE energetic--though at times notably less--than people in their twenties. I love the quote "To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle." I also like the idea of art "vitalizing--" is that the word? via Deleuze/Aristotle--ah, what odd & yet oddly felicitious bedfellows those two make! But I think--though I think in part we are not so far apart in some ways--that I am still less than entirely convinced by Harris's notion (unless I am radically misunderstanding it) that "values are facts about the well-being of conscious creatures." Well-being, health--these are terms I have been considering a great deal and in no small depth. I just put together with co-editors (and now dear friends) Jennifer Bartlett and Mike Northen, Beauty is a Verb, an anthology of American poets with physical disabilities, which contains essays on poetics and poems. I don't mean this to sound like a plug for the book--but one thing we were concerned with was how terms like health or ability--that treacherous word "abled"--could be creatively revisioned or re-formed (maybe the word I am looking for is remixed) through a disability lens. For instance--and I am not writing this defensively, I don't think --you write: I think Harris's point in saying that values are facts about the > well-being of conscious creatures, is (from what I can understand) > something like this: just as we can know that a healthy leg is better > (with exceptions certainly) for the well-being of a creature than a > damaged leg, we can know that a happy, thriving mind is better for a > creature than a dismal, suffering mind. but as a creature with "damaged legs" and, no doubt, in part as a result, an intermittently "dismal, suffering mind" (and who can say what suffering is nascent, what in response to--so that the ill or unable might actually be more accurate bellweathers of what we loosely call 'reality' than the "happy, thriving?") I read this mainly conscious of how relative, partial--and even ironic (as in considered with some irony) all our definitions of what constitutes "happy" or "thriving" must be in order to be ethical in any real way. Put another way, Harris's ideas are one way of putting the garden in order, but not the only way. One issue, for instance, that came up in doing the anthology among many, many of the writers involved was their sense of surprise or curiosity at how much dislike and distrust of people with disabilities most felt existed generally--almost for granted--within society This phenomenon has been well-documented--the notion of the stigma (Ernest Goffman) or scapegoat; most contributors, at some point attributed this active--and even excessive hostility (and not I might add directed at the disabled only, but also more generally in our society at the unfortunate, in general--viz Susan Shweik's recent "The Ugly Laws," the far right's rhetoric against "the poor") to the sense in which the very fact or embodiment of people with physical disabilities--many from birth or accident--threw into question notions of organic fairness--or "equality" except as considered creatively, relatively, though alternate and endlessly dynamic systems of valuation. I recognize it might be a leap from eating animals to the ethics or attitudes around disability, but there is a persistent sense of being able to define terms like "healthy," "good," "ethical," "right," "rational" in your discussion that seems simultaneously to me important and problematic--or in need of being problematized--in order to build a philosophy capacious enough to include the infirm, the odd, the dismal, the perverse, those of "dismal, suffering" mind. (This guy Jonathan Skinner wrote an interesting review of the anthology, which was interesting precisely because he looked at "disability' in terms of eco-poetics: http://jacket2.org/commentary/somatics.) I don't want to get overly spiritual here--obviously religion is the part of the problem--but it seems to me that what Rimbaud said (I think as I get older more of Rimbaud as one of THE most important poets, one I read and read again) in his poem Genie (can't put proper accents in the e-mail): "La musique savant manque a notre desir," which would translate to something like "the music of savants (masters, pedants) is lacking/insufficient for our desire"--bad translation--sorry!--gets at the crux of the problem as far as art and experience, which is that it must always include MORE, what is not shapely, what is not controlled. Why? Simply because in some ways joy or joyfulness--and I love that word "mudita" you put in your last e-mail--springs from our unfettered experience of reality or "being" in the present, which is all we have. This was Neitzche's reason--among others--for hating Christiainity which makes life tolerable by always positing an elsewhere--where life would be better. Being in the present, however, means that one must see everything as valuable, beloved, which is horrible, too, because immediately it makes for terrible choices for the conscious being--what Mark and others have said about everything wanting to live, everything wanting power, everything being dependent on some painful choice. (That girl with the dead puppy--she must be in your present of "joyfulness," too). And the only ethical stance that can incorporate that horror is an empathy--one which perhaps values what seems good but is equally alert to other ways, even oppositional ways--in which other lives, other gardens, other desires (powers?) are constructed. Wow. Now I do feel back in high school having one of those endless meaning of life discussions, but that does appear to me the crux of the conflict--how can an ethics exist that is alert and relative enough--that does not repress in the Derridian sense--so it, in turn, becomes merely another form of what imprisons? I also see a real distinction between what might be sensible and pragmatic (it makes sense for us to stop eating animals given the present state of the planet) and what is ethical or encompassed within a real notion of goodness. As for art--I like the idea of vitalization but I would go further and say that art is always--well not always but often or most truly itself when--amoral and revolutionary--since it must enact the dynamism of the ethical, the moments when power moves or shifts. I love Rimbaud here, for among other things, saying he would not be happy until it was Christmas on earth right here, right now and for everyone and since it wasn't... well, that's the punk "no" I guess--and what is likeable about it: it affirms while having an echo of the horror of such affirmation; In my bad old days I was this huge Flipper fan--they were around the time of the Dead Kennedy's I guess, Black Flag, too, and they had this song "Life," where Will Shatter, the lead singer, would wail, yowl, scream: "Yes, I've found out what living is all about/It's Life! Life!/Life is the only thing worth living for," which was always my favorite because of precisely how unlikely they were to be singing such an affirmative little ditty, which was, of course, exactly the point--and he meant it, sincerely. Sorry for rambling so much--but I am still (obviously) enjoying this discussion. Sheila > Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 13:36:39 -0500 > From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > Sheila, > > [I've been enjoying the discussion too! It's very kind of you to > presume am younger especially since am 45 and spend most of my days > with people perpetually w/ far more energy in their twenties and early > thirties. Is nice. :)] > > Regarding the bodily "no!" you mention: my experience is most of us > aren't even aware the degree to which our bodies' cravings for certain > sensations actually bias our cognition so profoundly it can numb us > ethically and politically. It causes me to think why Orwell sd, "To > see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle." One cd > add: and to see what's on one's plate. > > I think when we are invested in a situation at the level of bodily > craving and comfort, with habitual social support for such easily > available thoughts and perceptions, any challenge to that comfort is > guarded against with emotional violence and cognitive illusion: anger, > self-delusion. Orwell again: "The point is that we are all capable of > believing things which we know to be untrue, and then, when we are > finally proved wrong, impudently twisting the facts so as to show that > we were right. Intellectually, it is possible to carry on this process > for an indefinite time...." > > I feel you in stopping meat. It wasn't easy for me. When the body gets > used to certain heavy sensations, it's not easy to change that. If > it's something you might continue, I'd say, go slow. Take breaks. > > I think Harris's point in saying that values are facts about the > well-being of conscious creatures, is (from what I can understand) > something like this: just as we can know that a healthy leg is better > (with exceptions certainly) for the well-being of a creature than a > damaged leg, we can know that a happy, thriving mind is better for a > creature than a dismal, suffering mind. > > Knowing that, we can say that anything that increases happy, thriving > minds in conscious creatures is good, while those things that decrease > them are bad. This is all Harris means. And we can cultivate attitudes > and cognitive and physical practices -- with many right answers -- to > have healthier, happier minds/lives -- even from the midst of great > challenges. > > I wonder if the aversion to "moral" as a term comes from a long and > problematic history of deontological tyranny in christendom: it's good > because god/king says it's good, period, like it or be punished. What > Harris is suggesting, I think, is a pre-christian and dialogic inquiry > into what helps us thrive. This is actually not revolutionary, but a > return to something like an Aristotelian conception of > eudaimonia/thriving. In part because of that monotheistic history, we > think that "moral" is didactic and tutelary, when it's just about > sustained thriving. > > Joy is an interesting phenomenon. I am taken with ancient theravadan > theories and practices, mostly because they're a set of practices that > accord with the old Stoic ideal of eudaimonia : there is a Pali word > -- "mudita" -- which means "sympathetic joy," joy in the welfare of > others (where "others" is radically expanded to include all beings), > and joy that arises from knowing others are benefiting too. This is > not a mindstate less easily understood in the west, especially if we > are engaged, at a grosser level, in practices that harm others (for > the reasons Orwell suggests: we become invested in contradictions at a > bodily/social level and lie to ourselves). > > Kinsella, poetry, aesthetics, ethics: When you write "and yet...my own > feeling would be...that aesthetics--and, gulp ,experience--are always > complicating what is ethical or how to decide what is ethical in real > and perhaps unanswerable ways" -- I do agree with you, which is why > (to me) literature should be seen for what it is: part of a complex, > fascinating conversation whose purpose (following Deleuze/Aristotle) > is to vitalize. Not a collection of artifacts we > worship/like/appreciate merely for their aesthetic dimensions. Do that > certainly if it floats the boat, but to suggest (and I know you're > not, but perhaps a thought is floating out there in the conversation) > that there is nothing more to literature, or anything that partakes of > something more is somehow bad literature, seems, well, an > impoverishment. > > Punk and saying no: I like the way you put that about the visceral > response of the body saying "no" back. I spent the 80s in Seattle > listening to Punk and going to shows: Black Flag, Suicidal Tendencies, > Dead Kennedys, Circle Jerks (tho I always hated their name, I liked > their music). And wd offer that there might be no better way to say > "no" to the corporate greed of Monsanto, ADM, Pfister, Arm&Hammer, > Perdue and Tyson, and countless agribusiness multinationals than to > stop eating their poison-laden products sold to a wealthy country of > comfortable people and stolen pretty gruesomely from the bodies of > fellow sufferers. That's a "no" worth amplifying amplify a thousand > fold. > > Gabe > > > I have been--and I > > really appreciate this!--puzzled and chagrined > > to some degree by my somewhat kneejerk reaction against much of what you are > > saying--which is not occurring on an ethical plane > > > > --you may be pleased that all this has actually made me STOP eating meat for > > the past three days--pathetic I know but something of a > > record for me who tends to be a steak, red wine, chocolate, cigarettes > > (though I did finally quit those), over-indulgent sort of person-- > > > > but is occurring rather on a sort of atavistic plane--a sort of instinctual > > "no, it isn't like that," or "no, that isn't enough," sort of level, and I > > have been trying to work out what that "no" means or what I mean by it. And > > I know part of it is just a sort of spoiled brat modern American > > punk rock kind of No--like "no, it is inconvenient for me to think that so I > > won't," but there is also more to it--and that more does tend > > to come in around the realm of art or art and its relationship to experience > > and imagination, which is simply, > > > > would I find a poem that espouses political ideas I believe in and only does > > that necessarily a good or necessary poem? > > > > The answer would obviously be no. Which, in turn, begs the question what do > > I consider necessary in a poem to make me think it good?--and I > > tend to think it is access to some different way of knowing or apprehending > > than I can encompass altogether rationally, logically, ethically > > > > even--can a concept of goodness exist that is not built on joyfulness? And > > what makes us joyful? Not always what makes us good--not > > that I think you want the goodness, the being ethical you are speaking of, > > to be a pale Sunday school sort of dutiful thing, but what > > > > do you do to encompass the diversity of desire--one's own or that of other > > people? Or the way in which most beings are not > > entirely rational, ethical, and so on. Is joy bad if the thing that gives > > it hurts someone-- > > > > however indirectly, for example, the joy of eating red meat? Or if I train > > myself out of that habit and become in the process less joyful > > > > have I become less good? Obviously, I am being a bit silly here--but I do > > think that sense of exceeding bounds is part of our goodness ("being > > > > in joy must be part of goodness--the exercise of the self) and > > > > what we seek in art when we say it is good (we often mean it is like magic, > > like exorcism, or moves beyond clear valuations of good, bad, > > right, wrong in ways that feel right or true to us--what to make of that > > feeling?) > > > > Certainly there is moral progress--and I would not argue with you remotely > > about the examples you cite; but there are also ways in which > > for every instant of progress there are also new forms of immorality and > > moral degradation, which we lie about, I think, if we are not > > rigorous about admitting the full complexity and/or range of our > > relationship with experience and desire. You say: > > > > Re pragmatist ethics and science. I hear your concern. And I am taken > > with neuroscientist and moral philosopher Sam Harris who suggests that > > science already does help people see what is moral, and by moral he > > merely means correctly valued knowledge about well-being. > > > > Maybe I am just neurotic but I see no means of correctly valuing knowledge > > about well-being--what makes me feel well or even what makes > > it possible for me to survive NOW might be bad for me down the line as to be > > "good" is certainly an aim of mine, but at a certain point too much > > "goodness" means ignoring (shades of Blake) or repressing (and letting > > fester) too much of what I authentically desire or even what I might be, > > (my "being") etcetera, etcetera, which is exactly the painful, relative > > ongoing process of mindfulness I tend to seek from art. > > > > No answers but in things (or moments) > > > > to paraphrase William Carlos Williams... > > > > or "How does one measure wishes?" to paraphrase John... > > > > But I am enjoying this discussion! > > > > Best, > > > > Sheila > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2011 10:32:20 -0700 > > From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > > > --"'For me, poetry has no point in existing if it?s not to be a prompt or > > aid to political and ethical change.'" > > Bah. I've always found that sort of poetry the weakest. > > --"Here is a fellow being who feels, grieves, loves, wants, wishes, feels > > surprise, heartache, anger, disgust (and we know now that all mammals, and > > many vertebrates, feel these things too.)" > > Wishes? Feels disgust? All mammals? Are we talking science here? How > > does one measure wishes? "We discovered through careful research that the > > eastern mole wishes to see the ocean, and was both surprised and disgusted > > at Emily Dickinson's claim that she didn't have to see the sea to know what > > a wave must be." > > JohnJ > > > > ________________________________ > > From: gabriel gudding > > To: NewPoetry List > > Sent: Friday, November 4, 2011 12:46 PM > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > > > Sheila, > > > > Thanks for your reply. I got very busy at work. In terms of beauty and > > bodies, I often think of something sd or written by a theravadan > > vipassana meditator named Thanissaro Bhikkhu. It was something like, > > "The way we compare one body to another, one face to another, is > > absolutely insane." This same inherently divisive thing we often do > > with one another, is also what we do with animals. Here is a fellow > > being who feels, grieves, loves, wants, wishes, feels surprise, > > heartache, anger, disgust (and we know now that all mammals, and many > > vertebrates, feel these things too) -- and yet we have no problem > > enslaving it, putting it in stress positions, injecting it with > > harmful toxins, and then killing and eating it. We have no problem > > because we see it divisively in precisely the way mentioned above. > > > > Regarding encouraging and discouraging behaviors along right/wrong > > dimensions: We can and do converge on moral issues often. Sometimes it > > takes culture a long time to converge on moral issues. Spousal abuse: > > wrong. Yet, a man hitting his wife was considered an okay thing to do > > in 1950s Minnesota. Think how long it took Europe and the Americas to > > outlaw slavery or to accord women and, in the States, > > African-Americans the vote. Those were wrongs with moral, political, > > and ethical dimensions, labeled as wrongs, that took far too long to > > recognize and arrive at consensus about. There is a great article by > > Michele Moody-Adams, a moral philosopher, in _Setting the Moral > > Compass_ called "The Idea of Moral Progress," as to how progress in > > moral understanding happens: > > > > http://tinyurl.com/3fw2fo4 > > > > I think there is something similar happening now in our treatment of a > > newly seen Other: our fellow earthlings here with us inhabiting > > different bodies. We think some of these bodies are composed only of > > meat, while they also contain thoughts, languages, emotions, ideas -- > > things we used to think only human. > > > > Re pragmatist ethics and science. I hear your concern. And I am taken > > with neuroscientist and moral philosopher Sam Harris who suggests that > > science already does help people see what is moral, and by moral he > > merely means correctly valued knowledge about well-being. His > > formulation goes something like this: morality already lies in the > > realm of knowledge, not the realm of mere opinion or ritual or > > labeling: "values are facts about the well-being of conscious > > creatures" is how he gets there. I think it's compelling. There is a > > western antipathy to seeing morality as something to do with > > well-being. For Aristotle this wasn't a problem. > > > > And I agree that it is important for poetry/literature to have a > > moral/ethical energy, or at least be a consideration into literature's > > coming-into-being. Following Connie's Kinsella article, Ashley Capps > > pointed me to another essay by Kinsella, in which he says, > > > > "For me, poetry has no point in existing if it?s not to be a prompt or > > aid to political and ethical change. This is not to say that a poem > > should be political or ethical instruction, but rather that it might > > engender a dialogue between the poem itself and the reader / listener, > > between itself and other poems and texts, and between all of these and > > a broader public (whatever that might be). I see myself as a poet > > activist?every time I write a poem, it is an act of resistance to the > > state, the myriad hierarchies of control, and the human urge to > > conquer our natural surroundings." > > > > Found here: > > > > http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/article/238296 > > > > Gabe > > > > On Wed, Nov 2, 2011 at 3:15 PM, sheila black > > wrote: > >> > >> Gabriel: > >> > >> The Kinsella essay Connie sent IS wonderful. > >> > >> I like the idea of "moral energy" as opposed to "moral purpose." I wonder > >> if I resist consequentialist or utilitarian ethics because they seem to > >> translate too much of what we experience into a recognizable economy of > >> exchange and value, which is all very well, but robs from us a portion of > >> eternity or the boundless. I am not religious, but struck often the > >> philosophical ideas (or make that artistic ideas) I am most attracted to > >> seem precisely those than unmake the notion of "a rational economy." For > >> instance--art--if it has an economy at all--has more the economy of a wild > >> dice throw or an act of sacrifice than one of "reasonable hourly work well > >> and fairly paid." Or maybe that is just because I am not very good at > >> reasonable work. > >> > >> I have a similar resistance to pragmatic ethics (how do we know, say, > >> science is looking at the right things?) but I suspect that is as much from > >> childish willfulness as anything--like insisting on eating or drinking what > >> I know is NOT good for me and being happy about it; ah, the pleasure of > >> perversity in other words (and there is something perverse or at least > >> spoiled in the pleasure of the pastoral); and empathy, which does seem to me > >> & despite everything the most important thing, like being kind. I am struck > >> not only how difficult empathy is, how much it depends on a radical act of > >> imagination, but also that we are usually only driven to true feats of > >> empathy, such difficult acts of imagination, by some real and/or > >> extraordinary pressure. For instance, the way people will try very hard to > >> figure out a beloved, poring over the most minor turns of phrase, the most > >> innocuous statements. Or how you might try very hard to imagine what an > >> enemy might think or feel if you have one. Or--to bring it back to > >> animals--and why I started thinking about this--those beautiful strange > >> tender and deeply empathetic pictures of animals on the prehistoric walls of > >> Lascaux, Chauvet, Pech Merle, etc--whose scrupulous accuracy and attention > >> seems to derive finally from the pressure of need, hunger--pictures painted > >> by hunters. And the added strangeness that if you can say one thing about > >> humans it is that we are fundamentally--or distinguished by our being > >> as--aesthetic creatures; and how must that complicate our claims to > >> morality? > >> > >> I remember when I was reading a lot about disability at one point, > >> completely drowning in David Hume and the other Enlightenment thinkers--who > >> really wanted a way to create a taxonomy of beauty and deformity, a moral > >> order to "fit within," how cheered I was by this (well-known) quote by > >> Spinoza: "I would warn you that I do not attribute to nature either beauty > >> or deformity, order or confusion. Only in relation to our imagination can > >> things be called beautiful or ugly, well-ordered or confused." Which > >> is--perhaps--something like what you are getting at when you speak of "the > >> moral energy to examine one's own perceived moral purpose." > >> > >> Anyway-- > >> > >> Cheers! > >> > >> Sheila > >> > >> > >> > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 13:07:13 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 12:07:13 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <23398863.1320174373559.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <23398863.1320174373559.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Just awondering: Does the compassionate one meeting a masochist help by providing the pain that is sought for, or by trying to relieve the masochist of his/her need for pain? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 1:06 PM, wrote: > This is an at times contentious list, and that's ok--we tend to forgive > each other and go on. But it's never concerned itself with religious or > moral questions before, and while we occasionally question each other's > sanity as far as I can remember we've never judged each other's moral > decisions. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Sun Nov 6 13:21:43 2011 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 12:21:43 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] The older prize In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2AFC645E-89B4-4AF4-8455-AE3E0BD6B03F@ripon.edu> Well, believe it or not I DO win the older prize. You may be forty-five--that is actually starting to feel young to me!-- but I turned fifty this year... ****************** You youngsters! I myself just turned 80 (no tributes, please)-- but of course that's nothing. Jim Cervantes is 82. Hal Johnson is about to turn 89 (though he'll deny it) & Bob Grumman is so old that he's new. Nothing in Bob that was in him 50 years ago, in fact. Anny B is, I believe, our oldest list member, at 215.... =================== David Graham Grahamd at ripon.edu Home page: http://web.me.com/drjazz ==================== From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Sun Nov 6 13:37:22 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 18:37:22 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] The older prize In-Reply-To: <2AFC645E-89B4-4AF4-8455-AE3E0BD6B03F@ripon.edu> References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, , , , , , <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , , , <2AFC645E-89B4-4AF4-8455-AE3E0BD6B03F@ripon.edu> Message-ID: That's why you're all so wise!!!! > From: GrahamD at ripon.edu > Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 12:21:43 -0600 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: [New-Poetry] The older prize > > > Well, believe it or not I DO win the older prize. You may be forty-five--that is actually starting to feel young to me!-- but I turned fifty this year... > ****************** > You youngsters! I myself just turned 80 (no tributes, please)-- but of course that's nothing. Jim Cervantes is 82. Hal Johnson is about to turn 89 (though he'll deny it) & Bob Grumman is so old that he's new. Nothing in Bob that was in him 50 years ago, in fact. > > Anny B is, I believe, our oldest list member, at 215.... > > =================== > David Graham > Grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > ==================== > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 14:14:04 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 13:14:04 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] The older prize In-Reply-To: <2AFC645E-89B4-4AF4-8455-AE3E0BD6B03F@ripon.edu> References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <2AFC645E-89B4-4AF4-8455-AE3E0BD6B03F@ripon.edu> Message-ID: 89 cubed, to be precise. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 12:21 PM, Graham, David wrote: > > Well, believe it or not I DO win the older prize. You may be > forty-five--that is actually starting to feel young to me!-- but I turned > fifty this year... > ****************** > You youngsters! I myself just turned 80 (no tributes, please)-- but of > course that's nothing. Jim Cervantes is 82. Hal Johnson is about to turn 89 > (though he'll deny it) & Bob Grumman is so old that he's new. Nothing in > Bob that was in him 50 years ago, in fact. > > Anny B is, I believe, our oldest list member, at 215.... > > =================== > David Graham > Grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > ==================== > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 6 14:16:58 2011 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 11:16:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] The First Lady of Futurism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1320607018.69610.YahooMailNeo@web160116.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Mina Loy had a precedent: Valentine de Saint-Point, poet-painter-dancer, wrote the Manifeste de la femme futuriste in (I think) 1911 (followed by the Manifeste de la Luxure: the Manifesto of Lust!). Interesting poet, fascinating woman: she went on to fight for women's rights in the Middle East, and I believe she converted to Islam or something. There's an excellent translation of one of her poems in Green Integer Review. Amicalement, Alex ? www.alexdickow.net/blog/ ? les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ________________________________ From: gabriel gudding To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 12:48 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The First Lady of Futurism I saw this too. And had just read her "Feminist Manifesto" (in Danchev's _100 Manifestos_) with students. She wrote it in I think 1920 or so in response to Marinetti's and the Futurists rabid misogyny and war-mongering rhetoric. But it wasn't published until 1981 bc it was considered too radically progressive. The students and I couldn't help but think how much it might have changed things had it been published then.? On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 6:01 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904836104576558532980331552.html > > > >-- >Anny Ballardini >http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! >Friedrich Nietzsche > >? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >Giovenale > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 14:11:05 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 13:11:05 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <23398863.1320174373559.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: "Taking human experience in a general way, the choosings of different men are to a great extent the same. The race as a whole largely agrees as to what it shall notice and name; and among the noticed parts we select in much the same way for accentuation and preference, or subordination and dislike. There is, however, one entirely extraordinary case in which no two men ever are known to choose alike. One great splitting of the whole universe into two halves is made by each of us; and for each of us almost all of the interest attaches to one of the halves; but we all draw the line of division between them in a different place. When I say that we all call the two halves by the same names and that those names are '*me*' and '* not-me*' respectively, it will at once be seen what I mean. The altogether unique kind of interest which each human mind feels in those parts of creation which it can call *me* or *mine* may be a moral riddle, but it is a fundamental psychological fact. No mind can take the same interest in his neighbor's *me* as in his own. The neighbor's me falls together with all the rest of things in one foreign mass against which his own *me* stands out in startling relief. Even the trodden worm, as Lotze somewhere says, contrasts his own suffering self with the whole remaining universe, though he have no clear conception either of himself or of what the universe may be. He is for me a mere part of the world; for him it is I who am the mere part. Each of us dichotomizes the Kosmos in a different place." --William James, *Psychology *(1892) Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 12:07 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Just awondering: Does the compassionate one meeting a masochist help by > providing the pain that is sought for, or by trying to relieve the > masochist of his/her need for pain? > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 1:06 PM, wrote: > >> This is an at times contentious list, and that's ok--we tend to forgive >> each other and go on. But it's never concerned itself with religious or >> moral questions before, and while we occasionally question each other's >> sanity as far as I can remember we've never judged each other's moral >> decisions. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Sun Nov 6 14:33:40 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 19:33:40 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <23398863.1320174373559.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, , Message-ID: Isn't this wonderful? Thanks Hal! Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 13:11:05 -0600 From: halvard at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption "Taking human experience in a general way, the choosings of different men are to a great extent the same. The race as a whole largely agrees as to what it shall notice and name; and among the noticed parts we select in much the same way for accentuation and preference, or subordination and dislike. There is, however, one entirely extraordinary case in which no two men ever are known to choose alike. One great splitting of the whole universe into two halves is made by each of us; and for each of us almost all of the interest attaches to one of the halves; but we all draw the line of division between them in a different place. When I say that we all call the two halves by the same names and that those names are 'me' and 'not-me' respectively, it will at once be seen what I mean. The altogether unique kind of interest which each human mind feels in those parts of creation which it can call me or mine may be a moral riddle, but it is a fundamental psychological fact. No mind can take the same interest in his neighbor's me as in his own. The neighbor's me falls together with all the rest of things in one foreign mass against which his own me stands out in startling relief. Even the trodden worm, as Lotze somewhere says, contrasts his own suffering self with the whole remaining universe, though he have no clear conception either of himself or of what the universe may be. He is for me a mere part of the world; for him it is I who am the mere part. Each of us dichotomizes the Kosmos in a different place." --William James, Psychology (1892) Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 12:07 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: Just awondering: Does the compassionate one meeting a masochist help by providing the pain that is sought for, or by trying to relieve the masochist of his/her need for pain? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 1:06 PM, wrote: This is an at times contentious list, and that's ok--we tend to forgive each other and go on. But it's never concerned itself with religious or moral questions before, and while we occasionally question each other's sanity as far as I can remember we've never judged each other's moral decisions. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 14:48:50 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 13:48:50 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <23398863.1320174373559.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Is! Very much. Love Wm James. He has a whole passage in Varieties of Religious Experience on Whitman's empathy. What James' passage doesn't mention is the way that the "circle of empathy" (the encompassing line between me and not-me) has expanded with time, especially since 1750. Is the main theme of Steven Pinker's recent book, _The Better Angels of Our Nature_, which am listening to in car rides around town. On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 1:33 PM, sheila black wrote: > Isn't this wonderful? Thanks Hal! > > ------------------------------ > Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 13:11:05 -0600 > From: halvard at gmail.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > "Taking human experience in a general way, the choosings of different men > are to a great extent the same. The race as a whole largely agrees as to > what it shall notice and name; and among the noticed parts we select in > much the same way for accentuation and preference, or subordination and > dislike. There is, however, one entirely extraordinary case in which no two > men ever are known to choose alike. One great splitting of the whole > universe into two halves is made by each of us; and for each of us almost > all of the interest attaches to one of the halves; but we all draw the line > of division between them in a different place. When I say that we all call > the two halves by the same names and that those names are '*me*' and '* > not-me*' respectively, it will at once be seen what I mean. The > altogether unique kind of interest which each human mind feels in those > parts of creation which it can call *me* or *mine* may be a moral riddle, > but it is a fundamental psychological fact. No mind can take the same > interest in his neighbor's *me* as in his own. The neighbor's me falls > together with all the rest of things in one foreign mass against which his > own *me* stands out in startling relief. Even the trodden worm, as Lotze > somewhere says, contrasts his own suffering self with the whole remaining > universe, though he have no clear conception either of himself or of what > the universe may be. He is for me a mere part of the world; for him it is I > who am the mere part. Each of us dichotomizes the Kosmos in a different > place." > > --William James, *Psychology *(1892) > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 12:07 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > > Just awondering: Does the compassionate one meeting a masochist help by > providing the pain that is sought for, or by trying to relieve the > masochist of his/her need for pain? > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 1:06 PM, wrote: > > This is an at times contentious list, and that's ok--we tend to forgive > each other and go on. But it's never concerned itself with religious or > moral questions before, and while we occasionally question each other's > sanity as far as I can remember we've never judged each other's moral > decisions. > > > > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sun Nov 6 15:25:10 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 12:25:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1320611110.98075.YahooMailClassic@web161919.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Art vs. Athletics ... I wonder if I can sneak in college football. I think of myself as a poet/writer/musician, but all I think about is LSU vs. Alabama ... the SEC, I'm afraid, rules. --- On Sat, 11/5/11, Halvard Johnson wrote: From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 4:14 PM All kinds of polarities here: veg vs. non-veg; rare vs. well-done; aspiring vs. non-aspiring; etc. ?? ? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 1:56 PM, stephen russell wrote: ... sure, a silly thought ... still, veg vs. non-veg ... is it simply a bourgeoise issue? --- On Sat, 11/5/11, stephen russell wrote: From: stephen russell Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 3:39 PM ... but jail is a growth industry ... why not a veggy prison? ... i see $$$$ ... I WILL START A PRIVATELY RUN VEGGY JAIL ... maybe THAT will deter criminals from crime. --- On Sat, 11/5/11, stephen russell wrote: From: stephen russell Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 3:34 PM No. I can say from experience that jails do not do veggy ... that's why i try to avoid them ... the food stinks ... everything stinks ... jail rots. ... come to think of it, rehabs don't do veggy either ... at least not the ones i'm familiar with (I never did the Betty Ford thing) ... & they stink too ... but, they're better than jail. --- On Sat, 11/5/11, junction at earthlink.net wrote: From: junction at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 3:17 PM I misread you. I thought you'd written "Occupy K-Mart." That would work, too. Do jails provide vegetarian meals? How about halal and kosher? Mark -----Original Message----- From: stephen russell Sent: Nov 5, 2011 3:02 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption And wd offer that there might be no better way to say "no" to the corporate greed of Monsanto, ADM, Pfister, Arm&Hammer, Perdue and Tyson, and countless agribusiness multinationals than to stop eating their poison-laden products sold to a wealthy country of comfortable people and stolen pretty gruesomely from the bodies of fellow sufferers. That's a "no" worth amplifying amplify a thousand fold. ... it would be a good way to say no ... there's an Occupy K street movement happening in D.C. ... tent city in an otherwise affluent downtown ... it's a movement (part of occupy Wall Street) that's getting a ton of media attention ... one can say No to Monsanto/ADM/Pfister/Arm & Hammer/ Perdue & Tyson, but THEY have $$$ ... & get their message across (buy/eat what we advertise) ... http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From millb at aol.com Sun Nov 6 15:36:30 2011 From: millb at aol.com (Millicent Borges Accardi) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 15:36:30 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] A Short Interview with Philip Levine In-Reply-To: References: <1320590390.22345.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CE6ADAE637F714-21B8-B6C56@webmail-d127.sysops.aol.com> Greetings, This summer I went to hear the wonderful Portuguese poet NunoJ?dice in Lisbon, at a writers conference. The week had been filled with workshops and events and, frankly, his reading was scheduled at a venue away from other events and had been triple-booked with other activities. He and I sat there for awhile. I, in the audience and he was at the podium. Two organizers came by and spoke with him, briefly, then one left. Then the other. One organizer returned, apologized to Nuno J?dice, tome, then gestured around at the empty hall. The organizer said he was embarrassed and asked Nuno J?dice what he wanted to do. He looked around and said, why read of course! After he started, two or three more people showed up. His poetry was the BEST I heard at the conference and Nuno J?dice read as if he had a packed house. He did not complain or bat an eye. He was amazing. Millicent Help me get to 600 "likes" by Turkey Day. Click here to "like" my FB page. Thanks! _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sun Nov 6 15:42:07 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 12:42:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <1320611110.98075.YahooMailClassic@web161919.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1320612127.46476.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> & the game was last night ... & the wrong team won. The agony of defeat vs. The thrill of Alzhiemers. --- On Sun, 11/6/11, stephen russell wrote: From: stephen russell Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Sunday, November 6, 2011, 3:25 PM Art vs. Athletics ... I wonder if I can sneak in college football. I think of myself as a poet/writer/musician, but all I think about is LSU vs. Alabama ... the SEC, I'm afraid, rules. --- On Sat, 11/5/11, Halvard Johnson wrote: From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 4:14 PM All kinds of polarities here: veg vs. non-veg; rare vs. well-done; aspiring vs. non-aspiring; etc. ?? ? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Sat, Nov 5, 2011 at 1:56 PM, stephen russell wrote: ... sure, a silly thought ... still, veg vs. non-veg ... is it simply a bourgeoise issue? --- On Sat, 11/5/11, stephen russell wrote: From: stephen russell Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 3:39 PM ... but jail is a growth industry ... why not a veggy prison? ... i see $$$$ ... I WILL START A PRIVATELY RUN VEGGY JAIL ... maybe THAT will deter criminals from crime. --- On Sat, 11/5/11, stephen russell wrote: From: stephen russell Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 3:34 PM No. I can say from experience that jails do not do veggy ... that's why i try to avoid them ... the food stinks ... everything stinks ... jail rots. ... come to think of it, rehabs don't do veggy either ... at least not the ones i'm familiar with (I never did the Betty Ford thing) ... & they stink too ... but, they're better than jail. --- On Sat, 11/5/11, junction at earthlink.net wrote: From: junction at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, November 5, 2011, 3:17 PM I misread you. I thought you'd written "Occupy K-Mart." That would work, too. Do jails provide vegetarian meals? How about halal and kosher? Mark -----Original Message----- From: stephen russell Sent: Nov 5, 2011 3:02 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption And wd offer that there might be no better way to say "no" to the corporate greed of Monsanto, ADM, Pfister, Arm&Hammer, Perdue and Tyson, and countless agribusiness multinationals than to stop eating their poison-laden products sold to a wealthy country of comfortable people and stolen pretty gruesomely from the bodies of fellow sufferers. That's a "no" worth amplifying amplify a thousand fold. ... it would be a good way to say no ... there's an Occupy K street movement happening in D.C. ... tent city in an otherwise affluent downtown ... it's a movement (part of occupy Wall Street) that's getting a ton of media attention ... one can say No to Monsanto/ADM/Pfister/Arm & Hammer/ Perdue & Tyson, but THEY have $$$ ... & get their message across (buy/eat what we advertise) ... http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sun Nov 6 16:07:31 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 13:07:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1320613651.38556.YahooMailClassic@web161914.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ?In other words, a compassionate sadist ... but the sadist simply prolongs the cruelty, the masochit's addiction to pain. Yes, that, I believe, is the correct answer. The masochist provides the pain, not worrying if the need is satisfied. Am I right? --- On Sun, 11/6/11, Halvard Johnson wrote: From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Sunday, November 6, 2011, 1:07 PM Just awondering: Does the compassionate one meeting a masochist help by providing the pain that is sought for, or by trying to relieve the masochist of his/her need for pain? ?? ? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.orghttp://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 1:06 PM, wrote: This is an at times contentious list, and that's ok--we tend to forgive each other and go on. But it's never concerned itself with religious or moral questions before, and while we occasionally question each other's sanity as far as I can remember we've never judged each other's moral decisions. -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 16:22:33 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 22:22:33 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <23398863.1320174373559.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: I am sure the latter. On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 7:07 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Just awondering: Does the compassionate one meeting a masochist help by > providing the pain that is sought for, or by trying to relieve the > masochist of his/her need for pain? > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 16:54:45 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 14:54:45 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <1320613651.38556.YahooMailClassic@web161914.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1320613651.38556.YahooMailClassic@web161914.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: What could be more painful than pain unfulfilled? (Well, an old Liberace show, maybe.) - Jim On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 2:07 PM, stephen russell < poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: > In other words, a compassionate sadist ... but the sadist simply prolongs > the cruelty, the masochit's addiction to pain. Yes, that, I believe, is the > correct answer. The masochist provides the pain, not worrying if the need > is satisfied. Am I right? > > --- On *Sun, 11/6/11, Halvard Johnson * wrote: > > > From: Halvard Johnson > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Sunday, November 6, 2011, 1:07 PM > > Just awondering: Does the compassionate one meeting a masochist help by > providing the pain that is sought for, or by trying to relieve the > masochist of his/her need for pain? > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 1:06 PM, > > wrote: > > This is an at times contentious list, and that's ok--we tend to forgive > each other and go on. But it's never concerned itself with religious or > moral questions before, and while we occasionally question each other's > sanity as far as I can remember we've never judged each other's moral > decisions. > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope_productions at hotmail.com Sun Nov 6 17:07:04 2011 From: elemenope_productions at hotmail.com (R Dillon) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 22:07:04 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <23398863.1320174373559.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, , Message-ID: The sadist is merely an actor in the masochist's narcissism. Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 22:22:33 +0100 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption I am sure the latter. On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 7:07 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: Just awondering: Does the compassionate one meeting a masochist help by providing the pain that is sought for, or by trying to relieve the masochist of his/her need for pain? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From almaginnes at aol.com Sun Nov 6 17:04:06 2011 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 17:04:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <1320613651.38556.YahooMailClassic@web161914.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CE6AE722E4376F-BCC-B137C@webmail-d090.sysops.aol.com> "Hit me, hit me," said the masochist. "No," said the sadist. -----Original Message----- From: James Cervantes To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sun, Nov 6, 2011 5:02 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption What could be more painful than pain unfulfilled? (Well, an old Liberace show, maybe.) - Jim On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 2:07 PM, stephen russell wrote: In other words, a compassionate sadist ... but the sadist simply prolongs the cruelty, the masochit's addiction to pain. Yes, that, I believe, is the correct answer. The masochist provides the pain, not worrying if the need is satisfied. Am I right? --- On Sun, 11/6/11, Halvard Johnson wrote: From: Halvard Johnson Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Sunday, November 6, 2011, 1:07 PM Just awondering: Does the compassionate one meeting a masochist help by providing the pain that is sought for, or by trying to relieve the masochist of his/her need for pain? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 1:06 PM, wrote: This is an at times contentious list, and that's ok--we tend to forgive each other and go on. But it's never concerned itself with religious or moral questions before, and while we occasionally question each other's sanity as far as I can remember we've never judged each other's moral decisions. -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Nov 6 18:52:23 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 18:52:23 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <15880395.1320623543733.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Nov 6 19:40:41 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 19:40:41 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <1168137.1320626442408.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Sun Nov 6 20:49:50 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 17:49:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption References: <8668366.1320505542087.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1320517868.20118.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <9426B365211D1D468416FFC229EA831828C543@thorium.ripon.college> <1320574215.52198.YahooMailNeo@web120529.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1320630590.87126.YahooMailNeo@web120524.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Gabe,? By a response, I guess you want me to respond to your Whitman quotes? I read the quotes; I re-read the Preface; and I don't agree that Whitman is writing to "be a prompt or aid to political and ethical change," which is the quote I commented on way back when. ?And Whitman certainly does not get all moral on our butts. ?He voices his beliefs and opinions, loudly and repeatedly, but he also accepts others'. ?He?doesn't voice outrage or systematic declarations that others are wrong. ?He accepts, loves, cajoles, extols, sings.... ?Yet proclaiming?beliefs?and opinions, even in Whitman-like exalted declarations, is not moralizing or making an ethical argument.? He also said, "The greatest poet does not moralize or make applications of morals." So that's it. ?I don't agree with what you quoted. ?I dislike poems that stink of?prompting political and ethical change. ?And if I quote the whole of Kinsella's statement--"For me, poetry has no point in existing if it?s not to be a prompt or aid to political and ethical change."--then I dislike and disagree with it even more. JohnJ P.S. ?And I won't crack any more jokes such as the "crazy" comment. ?I thought it was obviously tongue-in-cheek, but I guess it didn't read that way. ?(Nor did I think my response a riposte.) ?Still, I apologize if I offended. ?It was not meant that way.? ________________________________ From:?gabriel gudding To:?NewPoetry List Sent:?Sunday, November 6, 2011 12:39 PM Subject:?Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption ... Hi John: I was hoping for a response rather than a riposte. None of the stuff I'm suggesting here hasn't been suggested by others who are markedly not, to use your othering term, crazy. Wd be happy for a considerate, maybe even civil, reply. :) Gabe >________________________________ >From: John Jeffrey >To: NewPoetry List >Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 5:10 AM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > >Really?? I have to reply to a few random sentences pulled from Whitman's Whitmanesque Preface?? The man bellows about everything. Yes, he mentions science.? He also mentions America and nature and politics and beauty and faith and love for all people and his ideas of poetry and poets (which support his style of poetry) amidst a million other things.? He's Whitman, for crying out loud. > > > >But, for me, this is part of the problem, mentioning an author or source that backs your opinion as if that alone proves the point.? Nearly everyone can find authors and scientists that support their theories.? Evolution is under attack.? There are scientists that point to holes in the theory.? If I reference a book that argues against evolution, have I proved my point?? If I reference Darwin, have I proved the opposite?? The same is true for many of the tenets of man-made climate change; indeed, any large, complex theory.? And these books, regardless of the perspective, always include lengthy bibliographies.? One group's scientific pioneer is another group/s quack.? (Much of this has to do with funding, which has politicized so much research, and with mass media's publicizing early, pre-peer reviewed results--and oversimplifying & politicizing those results, as well). > > >You can have your beliefs.? I'm fine with that.? I have lots of crazy friends.? (Some of my friends have even declared that I'm the crazy one, but I've seen no definitive studies on that.)? It's the "settled science" declarations that provoke. > >JohnJ > > > > > > >>________________________________ >>From: gabriel gudding >>To: NewPoetry List >>Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2011 12:14 AM >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>... >> >>Hi John,? >> >> >> >>It would be nice to have a reply to my post about Whitman's "Preface" in answering your query. >>... >> >>Warmly >> >>Gabe >> >>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Mon Nov 7 11:35:39 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 11:35:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] When poetry in the schools goes wrong... Message-ID: <8CE6B826AF13EFC-1034-9B6AB@Webmail-d114.sysops.aol.com> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/05/nyregion/horace-mann-students-repeat-poets-slurs-to-schools-dismay.html Students Repeat a Poem?s Slurs, Surprising the Poets and an Elite Bronx School By FERNANDA SANTOS Published: November 4, 2011 The poetry assembly on Tuesday morning at the Horace Mann School, in the Bronx, was meant to be provocative. The visiting poets who led it asked students to write words on index cards ? remembrances, colors and references to pop-culture icons ? that would then converge as poems. The poets had set the tone for the exercise by reading a poem they had written together, which uses startling, offensive language and has in its first three lines the harshest slurs against blacks and gays... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 11:54:51 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 10:54:51 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] When poetry in the schools goes wrong... In-Reply-To: <8CE6B826AF13EFC-1034-9B6AB@Webmail-d114.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE6B826AF13EFC-1034-9B6AB@Webmail-d114.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Soap in the mouth. That'll teach 'em. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 10:35 AM, wrote: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/05/nyregion/horace-mann-students-repeat-poets-slurs-to-schools-dismay.html > > Students Repeat a Poem?s Slurs, Surprising the Poets and an Elite Bronx > School > By FERNANDA SANTOS > Published: November 4, 2011 > > The poetry assembly on Tuesday morning at the Horace Mann School, in the > Bronx, was meant to be provocative. The visiting poets who led it asked > students to write words on index cards ? remembrances, colors and > references to pop-culture icons ? that would then converge as poems. > > The poets had set the tone for the exercise by reading a poem they had > written together, which uses startling, offensive language and has in its > first three lines the harshest slurs against blacks and gays... > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 12:57:19 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 11:57:19 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sheila, I looked online at the book you just edited with your co-editors. It *just* came out! And am happy to learn Jonathan reviewed it in Jacket2. A review to be pleased with, for sure. So there's this: I'm putting it on the textbook order form for a gen ed class in the spring called "intro to literary genres" (basically an intro to lit for students for non-English majors) -- as this discussion has helped me decide to teach the course on the MarthaNussbaum/StevenPinker/SuzanneKeen thesis of literature as an "empathy technology," a means of expanding (or a practice that results in, anyway, even if not done by design) the circle of empathy. Will teach it with Ariana Reines' _The Cow_, Deleuze, Coetzee, Whitman, Jennifer Knox, Martha Nussbaum, maybe _Babyfucker_ too (as a means of an attempt to empathize with absolute evil, tho the book is kind of sickening) and have to find some others -- suggestions welcome. When you write, "I recognize it might be a leap from eating animals to the ethics or attitudes around disability" -- I can say that I don't think it's a leap at all. It is precisely in that sense of Goffman's stigma, Levinas' other, that these two things come together for me. And I get why you write this: "but there is a persistent sense of being able to define terms like 'healthy,' 'good,' 'ethical,' 'right,' 'rational' in your discussion that seems simultaneously to me important and problematic," and my reply is more or less like this: Luckily my stupid example of a damaged leg isn't something I found in Harris, but from my own dismal mind. From what I understand of Harris's view of what he calls "the moral landscape," he wd back a project like this: "to build a philosophy capacious enough to include the infirm, the odd, the dismal, the perverse, those of 'dismal, suffering' mind." He is not like Singer in his coyness about how we should treat the infirm, etc (which Pinker does, I know, to wake our innate sense of care for our own as a means of persuading that we extend moral consideration further outside a speciesist realm). And H insists that there are many answers, yes, to how to thrive. And he is not suggesting certain ways of doing that, only that they are possible to study. Too, H is less about /philosophies/ and more about practices that ensure people feel that they are loved and that help them love. He's a neuroscientist and someone bent on changing minds that are both biased *for*faith-based moralities and biased *against* science as a method that can help persons thrive from where we are. I do know he's a serious vipassana meditator, which is a non-religious, secular practice, and I know it entails metta bhavana, cultivating love. He does say this, toward *The End of Faith*, which I got on audiobook in the spring -- it's a book about the ethical harm done by deontological ethics and faith-based religions: ?....we soon discover that 'love' is largely a matter of wishing that others experience happiness rather than suffering; and most of us come to feel that love is more conducive to happiness, both our own and that of others, than hate. There is a circle here that links us to one another: we each want to be happy; the social feeling of love is one of our greatest sources of happiness; and love entails that we be concerned for the happiness of others. We discover that we can be selfish together. This is just a sketch, but it suggests a clear link between ethics and positive human emotions....such observations are the stuff of nascent science.? I found this some months ago (which is what turned me on to Pinker and Patricia Churchland): http://thesciencenetwork.org/programs/the-great-debate/the-great-debate-panel-1 Harris's point is that we can move "love" out of the realm of rules and transcendental fantasies and metaphysics, that have actually kept it cloistered in the human, the "beautiful," and for only those "like us," and that the practice and study of how to love and care for/with others will likely make a better, more affiliative, loving society. Yes, I like Deleuze a lot, the little I've read, having only read his _Essays Critical and Clinical_. It seems like Deleuze and you and me might be in accord on this amoral/moral thing (hope I'm not forcing that accord tho) and, reading your explanation, it feels like if there are any differences it might just be a difference in terms and language. EG, you say "amoral" and (it seems to me) you clearly mean something that I would call ethical or vivifying, which I also think of as "moral" despite that word's stupid history. "The aim of writing," Deleuze says, "is to carry life to the state of a non-personal power" that "vitalizes the collective." But he himself contrasts that vitalizing (which he calls the "ethical") with what he calls "the moral" which he says is just a set of reactive values that exhaust the collective and are against life. Nietzschean in that way. But he insists that (in the words of his editor) this "renunciation of judgment does not deprive one of distinguishing the good from the bad." And here's where I think you and he might speak the same language (and me too, and possibly Catherine and maybe even John, given what I've read) in seeing that cohabitation btw aesthetics and ethics: "Judgment operates w/ preexisting criteria that can never apprehend the creation of the new, and what is of value can only come into existence by 'defying judgment.'" And in his essay "To Have Done With Judgment" he particularly speaks against "systems of cruelty," such as "God" -- and one such system is the system set up to deny us "becoming-animal." He elsewhere is so eloquent on "becoming-minor." I really love him. (BTW, there's a great youtube video in which he speaks as to how he can't stand cats bc "they rub": "I do not like the rubbing." Makes me laugh just to type that! :) -- (I live with five cats and a dog, btw). :) He is interesting on animals, and says that the reason we write is because calves are dying. He outlines four ways to have done with judgment. One of those is "combat"! But, lest we think he means war, which he expressly rejects, he says, "For the baby is combat, and the *small *is an irreducible locus of forces, the most revealing of forces." "For the baby is combat" -- is very funny. (I find that sort of thing charming somehow, call me a dork). :) So, I share your "wow": I feel like I'm learning a lot from this conversation, its many voices, and am grateful for it. It's changed what I'll teach next semester. It's also helped me find a great debate between Martha Nussbaum (arguing for ethics in lit) and Richard Posner (arguing against ethics & lit) from about ten years ago on Project Muse. And I'm sorry to hear that 50 feels far from 45 - because I already fear that I'm at the cusp of death and that if I age anymore I won't be able to go on. :) But David and Bob and Hal and Finnegan and Anny seem to be doing well for themselves in the 100+ range. :) Very very sorry this is such a long reply! Gabe On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 11:58 AM, sheila black wrote: > Gabriel: > > Well, believe it or not I DO win the older prize. You may be > forty-five--that is actually starting to feel young to me!-- but I turned > fifty this year, and my oldest daughter > is eighteen, which means, she is even MORE energetic--though at times > notably less--than people in their twenties. > > I love the quote "To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant > struggle." I also like the idea of art "vitalizing--" is that > the word? via Deleuze/Aristotle--ah, what odd & yet oddly felicitious > bedfellows those two make! But I think--though I think in part we are not > so far apart in > some ways--that I am still less than entirely convinced by Harris's notion > (unless I am radically misunderstanding it) that "values are facts about the > well-being of conscious creatures." Well-being, health--these are terms I > have been considering a great deal and in no small depth. I just put > together > with co-editors (and now dear friends) Jennifer Bartlett and Mike Northen, > *Beauty is a Verb,* an anthology of American poets with physical > disabilities, which contains essays on poetics > and poems. I don't mean this to sound like a plug for the book--but one > thing we were concerned with was how terms like health or ability--that > treacherous word "abled"--could be creatively revisioned or re-formed > (maybe the word I am looking for is remixed) through a disability lens. > For instance--and I am not writing this defensively, I don't think > --you write: > > I think Harris's point in saying that values are facts about the > > well-being of conscious creatures, is (from what I can understand) > > something like this: just as we can know that a healthy leg is better > > (with exceptions certainly) for the well-being of a creature than a > > damaged leg, we can know that a happy, thriving mind is better for a > > creature than a dismal, suffering mind. > > but as a creature with "damaged legs" and, no doubt, in part as a result, > an intermittently "dismal, suffering mind" (and who can say what suffering > is nascent, what in response to--so that the ill or unable might actually > be more accurate bellweathers of what we loosely call 'reality' than the > "happy, thriving?") I read this mainly conscious of how relative, > partial--and even ironic (as in considered with some irony) all our > definitions of what constitutes "happy" or "thriving" must be in order to > be ethical in any real way. Put another way, Harris's ideas are one way of > putting the garden in order, but not the only way. One issue, for > instance, that came up in doing the anthology among many, many of the > writers involved was their sense of surprise or curiosity at how much > dislike and distrust of people with disabilities most felt existed > generally--almost for granted--within society This phenomenon has been > well-documented--the notion of the stigma (Ernest Goffman) or scapegoat; > most contributors, at some point attributed this active--and even excessive > hostility (and not I might add directed at the disabled only, but also more > generally in our society at the unfortunate, in general--viz Susan Shweik's > recent "The Ugly Laws," the far right's rhetoric against "the poor") to the > sense in which the very fact or embodiment of people with physical > disabilities--many from birth or accident--threw into question notions of > organic fairness--or "equality" except as considered creatively, > relatively, though alternate and endlessly dynamic systems of valuation. I > recognize it might be a leap from eating animals to the ethics or attitudes > around disability, but there is a persistent sense of being able to define > terms like "healthy," "good," "ethical," "right," "rational" in your > discussion that seems simultaneously to me important and problematic--or in > need of being problematized--in order to build a philosophy capacious > enough to include the infirm, the odd, the dismal, the perverse, those of > "dismal, suffering" mind. (This guy Jonathan Skinner wrote an interesting > review of the anthology, which was interesting precisely because he looked > at "disability' in terms of eco-poetics: > http://jacket2.org/commentary/somatics.) > > I don't want to get overly spiritual here--obviously religion is the part > of the problem--but it seems to me that what Rimbaud said (I think as I get > older more of Rimbaud as one of THE most important poets, one I read and > read again) in his poem Genie (can't put proper accents in the e-mail): > "La musique savant manque a notre desir," which would translate to > something like "the music of savants (masters, pedants) is > lacking/insufficient for our desire"--bad translation--sorry!--gets at the > crux of the problem as far as art and experience, which is that it must > always include MORE, what is not shapely, what is not controlled. Why? > Simply because in some ways joy or joyfulness--and I love that word > "mudita" you put in your last e-mail--springs from our unfettered > experience of reality or "being" in the present, which is all we have. > This was Neitzche's reason--among others--for hating Christiainity which > makes life tolerable by always positing an elsewhere--where life would be > better. Being in the present, however, means that one must see everything > as valuable, beloved, which is horrible, too, because immediately it makes > for terrible choices for the conscious being--what Mark and others have > said about everything wanting to live, everything wanting power, everything > being dependent on some painful choice. (That girl with the dead puppy--she > must be in your present of "joyfulness," too). And the only ethical stance > that can incorporate that horror is an empathy--one which perhaps values > what seems good but is equally alert to other ways, even oppositional > ways--in which other lives, other gardens, other desires (powers?) are > constructed. > > Wow. Now I do feel back in high school having one of those endless > meaning of life discussions, but that does appear to me the crux of the > conflict--how can an ethics exist that is alert and relative enough--that > does not repress in the Derridian sense--so it, in turn, becomes merely > another form of what imprisons? I also see a real distinction between what > might be sensible and pragmatic (it makes sense for us to stop eating > animals given the present state of the planet) and what is ethical or > encompassed within a real notion of goodness. As for art--I like the idea > of vitalization but I would go further and say that art is always--well not > always but often or most truly itself when--amoral and revolutionary--since > it must enact the dynamism of the ethical, the moments when power moves or > shifts. I love Rimbaud here, for among other things, saying he would not > be happy until it was Christmas on earth right here, right now and for > everyone and since it wasn't... well, that's the punk "no" I guess--and > what is likeable about it: it affirms while having an echo of the horror of > such affirmation; In my bad old days I was this huge Flipper fan--they were > around the time of the Dead Kennedy's I guess, Black Flag, too, and they > had this song "Life," where Will Shatter, the lead singer, would wail, > yowl, scream: "Yes, I've found out what living is all about/It's Life! > Life!/Life is the only thing worth living for," which was always my > favorite because of precisely how unlikely they were to be singing such an > affirmative little ditty, which was, of course, exactly the point--and he > meant it, sincerely. > > Sorry for rambling so much--but I am still (obviously) enjoying this > discussion. > > Sheila > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 13:01:55 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 12:01:55 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <1320630590.87126.YahooMailNeo@web120524.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <8668366.1320505542087.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1320517868.20118.YahooMailClassic@web161905.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <9426B365211D1D468416FFC229EA831828C543@thorium.ripon.college> <1320574215.52198.YahooMailNeo@web120529.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <1320630590.87126.YahooMailNeo@web120524.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi John, Thanks for replying. We'll just agree to disagree on this one, I guess, as I think he cdn't be clearer on that point. In my read, he is declarative and instructive as to the ethical and political character of a poet and clearly insisting the poet be politically/ethically engaged, suggesting the poet be a "leveler" of injustice and a lover of the kosmos. Be that as it may, I will not try anymore to wrestle you from your read of the Preface. Is okay about the tongue-in-cheek thing. I've often tried irony on listservs and it hasn't made it across the wires. Sometimes it has, though. But I now shamelessly resort to emoticons out of semantic redundancy or so as not to offend (hopefully). Anyway, thanks again for your reply. Gabe On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 7:49 PM, John Jeffrey wrote: > Gabe, > > By a response, I guess you want me to respond to your Whitman quotes? > > I read the quotes; I re-read the Preface; and I don't agree that Whitman > is writing to "be a prompt or aid to political and ethical change," which > is the quote I commented on way back when. And Whitman certainly does not > get all moral on our butts. He voices his beliefs and opinions, loudly and > repeatedly, but he also accepts others'. He doesn't voice outrage or > systematic declarations that others are wrong. He accepts, loves, cajoles, > extols, sings.... Yet proclaiming beliefs and opinions, even in > Whitman-like exalted declarations, is not moralizing or making an ethical > argument. > > He also said, "The greatest poet does not moralize or make applications of > morals." > > So that's it. I don't agree with what you quoted. I dislike poems that > stink of prompting political and ethical change. And if I quote the > whole of Kinsella's statement--"For me, *poetry has no point in existing*if it?s not to be a prompt or aid to political and ethical change."--then I > dislike and disagree with it even more. > > JohnJ > > P.S. And I won't crack any more jokes such as the "crazy" comment. I > thought it was obviously tongue-in-cheek, but I guess it didn't read that > way. (Nor did I think my response a riposte.) Still, I apologize if I > offended. It was not meant that way. > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* gabriel gudding > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Sent:* Sunday, November 6, 2011 12:39 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > ... > > Hi John: I was hoping for a response rather than a riposte. None of the > stuff I'm suggesting here hasn't been suggested by others who are markedly > not, to use your othering term, crazy. Wd be happy for a considerate, maybe > even civil, reply. :) > > Gabe > > ------------------------------ > *From:* John Jeffrey > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Sent:* Sunday, November 6, 2011 5:10 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > Really? I have to reply to a few random sentences pulled from Whitman's > Whitmanesque Preface? The man bellows about everything. Yes, he mentions > science. He also mentions America and nature and politics and beauty and > faith and love for all people and his ideas of poetry and poets (which > support his style of poetry) amidst a million other things. He's Whitman, > for crying out loud. > > But, for me, this is part of the problem, mentioning an author or source > that backs your opinion as if that alone proves the point. Nearly everyone > can find authors and scientists that support their theories. Evolution is > under attack. There are scientists that point to holes in the theory. If > I reference a book that argues against evolution, have I proved my point? > If I reference Darwin, have I proved the opposite? The same is true for > many of the tenets of man-made climate change; indeed, any large, complex > theory. And these books, regardless of the perspective, always include > lengthy bibliographies. One group's scientific pioneer is another group/s > quack. (Much of this has to do with funding, which has politicized so much > research, and with mass media's publicizing early, pre-peer reviewed > results--and oversimplifying & politicizing those results, as well). > > You can have your beliefs. I'm fine with that. I have lots of crazy > friends. (Some of my friends have even declared that I'm the crazy one, > but I've seen no definitive studies on that.) It's the "settled science" > declarations that provoke. > > JohnJ > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* gabriel gudding > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Sent:* Sunday, November 6, 2011 12:14 AM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > ... > Hi John, > > It would be nice to have a reply to my post about Whitman's "Preface" in > answering your query. > ... > Warmly > Gabe > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 13:27:52 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 19:27:52 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: ASK/TELL Interview blog In-Reply-To: <4EAEB441.5020803@umn.edu> References: <4EAEB441.5020803@umn.edu> Message-ID: ASK/TELL: Tom Beckett's interview with philosopher Graham Harman is now up at: http://eeevee2.blogspot.com ================================== -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Mon Nov 7 18:14:40 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 23:14:40 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <1168137.1320626442408.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <1168137.1320626442408.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Mark: I am going to try to delete this tail! Thanks for supporting what I said--and so much more concisely; I agree about the point of a poem being in some way to surprise yourself--that little machine of words or (as James Tate once put it) "that fussy pet always wanting a bit more of this, a bit less of that." I like that you say "you trust the way I actually experience." I think the trick of poetry is to sort of short circuit oneself to get to that experience without all the inner critics correcting what they will. As to "sensible and pragmatic" they are not the same, no. You are right--"the art of the possible should guide us" except maybe in matters of poetry! Best, Sheila > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Mon Nov 7 22:03:23 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 03:03:23 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, , , , , , <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , , , Message-ID: Gabriel: First, it is so nice of you to decide to teach my--our book. I hope you will find it--oh, irony intended, salutary in a dismal mind sort of way, but seriously (sincerely?) thanks; it is really awfully kind of you. Maybe I shall look at Mr. Harris, but I warn you, I am a little afraid of programs of improvability no matter how intelligently or moderately put forth; For instance, I find myself really disagreeing with the following statement by H in the End of Faith: ...we soon discover that 'love' is largely a matter of wishing that others experience happiness rather than suffering, and most of us come to feel that love is more conducive to happiness, both our own and that of others, than hate. There is a circle here, that links us to one another: we each want to be happy; the social feeling of love is one of our greatest sources of happiness, and love entails that we be concerned for the happiness of others... It seems to me this is certainly part of the story, but also like a child's story of love; I would much rather such a world perhaps--or in some ways-- but in such a world, I fear I--and I am trying to employ "I" here in sort of a universal way--would be very much like Emily Bronte's Cathy, begging the angels to toss her out of heaven so she could return to the moors--I would not, I mean, be able to imagine myself so denatured when I have found myself generally much crueler, more partial, urgent in all my forms of love; I agree it is possible to study ways of "being other" or "becoming other," but I would not want to reduce to anodyne all the forms of love (however hard and mortifying at times I may have found them) for fear of reducing what love might show--namely the ways in which such difficulty--to "love" or even simply "empathize" entirely with another-- represents the most pointed challenge or radical assault on the self--and, as such, to borrow your terminology, perhaps the most compelling way by which the self might stretch or thrive--embrace a larger circle of "others." Maybe where we disagree is the emphasis we place on the transcendental; I think you see it as fantasy and, as such, a barrier to what might be a more "productive" exercise of faculties to create a more ethical, loving, social world. I think I have less faith than you in the exercise of any power but the transcendental to cope with what I see as our essentially tragic structure as individual/social beings. Not to sound hopeless, maybe it is just that 1) I think I am really v. 19th century in my imagination (I LOVE Keats!); and 2) like Mark I believe in the realm of the possible--one might struggle quite hard to see just a small measure of improvement or simply to re-vivify what is beautiful--and it is still worthwhile to do that. But any suggestion that--which these Pinkertons and Harrises seem to make--we might find a kind of means of radical improvement through some sensible practice or study--that I don't quite really believe; indeed, I tend to see it as part of the whole realm of "productive" discourse I find problematic--and, yes, perhaps this is a legacy of being within a "flawed" body or a "disabled body" (though to be quite honest, I have never actually found this "disabling" in any real way; rather for me, it has been a sort of difficult privilege or gift), but I find the whole discourse of "disability" and "ability" (often focused and enacted "upon" the disabled individual) points up the problem of how much all of our habits of thinking have been colonized by economic (capitalist even) ideas of production; I often think one big gift or power of disability is the way in which at root we--embody--hah!--the threat or presence of the non-productive body. (Or would I simply prefer a heaven more disorderly?). H\Yet there should, shouldn't there, be other ways of structuring ourselves--this is really a Neiztchian (god, I really can't spell at this time of day) idea--well, I never know what Neitzche's ideas quite add up to (don't think I am entirely smart enough), but he is such a fertile, extraordinary mind, hard not to derive notions from him!--and this is one: that we must expand our realm of knowing and feeling out of cause and effect, out of the discourse of trade or barter, out of discourses of production--or maybe simply that if we could do so we would have more access to the infinite--or to the sensations of the infinite (which, yes, I suppose, too, we associate with love). Well, I could go on--as I have been for e-mail after e-mail (how could I mind in the slightest yours being so long when mine are even longer?) but it strikes me that one thing you might consider is the role of power and desire in creating and preventing types of empathy. I don't know about you, but I think most art is in some sense about power and desire, or power or desire. I love that you love Deleuze. Not to jump in with lots of suggestions for your class--which sounds pretty great--I do like that odd phrase "literature as a technology of empathy," but Delueze and Guattari's Anti-Oedipus might be a text worth considering because of how it posits society as a series of productions of desire and the role of the family within that (not positive in their book)--and the way Anti-Oedipus seeks collective structures--and the kind of more loving society you seem to be talking about, but figures these within an arena of how power flows or doesn't. Hmmm haven't actually read the book in many years so that may be a terribly simplistic exegis. But I also remember Foucault wrote the introduction and it was kind of this terrific rant about power and liberation and not being sad even as you fought against--what did you call it, ah, yes: ethical harm done by deontological ethics and faith-based religions. Here's a link to it: http://richardpayton.pbworks.com/w/page/12580685/Preface%20to%20Anti-Oedipus (though I'm guessing you've probably read it before...). Don't know what babyfucker is but one novel I was compelled by (though kind of vile) about love and transgression is George Bataille's Blue of Noon which he wrote as a kind of response to Emily Bronte (Oh, that 19th century again--maybe I love them so much because so much of their literature was created in the condition of the dismal, the burning, the mortally ill mind, the "present" of sickness which colors so much of their experience and thought and reaches such surprising ends....). But, well, it seems worth considering: empathy as a product of struggle or emerging from a confluence of powers. Maybe why I LOVE combat baby--there is a very funny/odd French film--sort of feels like a Dogma film about a downtrodden factory family; you expect this sort of kitchen sink realism, and then in the middle they have this baby, and the baby grow wings and becomes this kind of unstoppable, terrible, amazing force. Ah, well, on defying judgement--lovely remark--after all this disagreement maybe you, me, Catherine and John can agree on that idea of the new. And I can also perhaps affirm that fifty is not really so far from forty-five, just that the death thing feels even a little closer, which is sometimes terrifying; others oddly vivifying. Thanks again--and for your patience with these (v. long!) e-mails. Best, Sheila P.S. Rimbaud--okay, I should shut up about Rimbaud, had this lovely idea of genius as collective or a collective resource....and also that it was job of the poet to measure the amount of unknown left in the world... Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 11:57:19 -0600 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Sheila, I looked online at the book you just edited with your co-editors. It *just* came out! And am happy to learn Jonathan reviewed it in Jacket2. A review to be pleased with, for sure. So there's this: I'm putting it on the textbook order form for a gen ed class in the spring called "intro to literary genres" (basically an intro to lit for students for non-English majors) -- as this discussion has helped me decide to teach the course on the MarthaNussbaum/StevenPinker/SuzanneKeen thesis of literature as an "empathy technology," a means of expanding (or a practice that results in, anyway, even if not done by design) the circle of empathy. Will teach it with Ariana Reines' _The Cow_, Deleuze, Coetzee, Whitman, Jennifer Knox, Martha Nussbaum, maybe _Babyfucker_ too (as a means of an attempt to empathize with absolute evil, tho the book is kind of sickening) and have to find some others -- suggestions welcome. When you write, "I recognize it might be a leap from eating animals to the ethics or attitudes around disability" -- I can say that I don't think it's a leap at all. It is precisely in that sense of Goffman's stigma, Levinas' other, that these two things come together for me. And I get why you write this: "but there is a persistent sense of being able to define terms like 'healthy,' 'good,' 'ethical,' 'right,' 'rational' in your discussion that seems simultaneously to me important and problematic," and my reply is more or less like this: Luckily my stupid example of a damaged leg isn't something I found in Harris, but from my own dismal mind. From what I understand of Harris's view of what he calls "the moral landscape," he wd back a project like this: "to build a philosophy capacious enough to include the infirm, the odd, the dismal, the perverse, those of 'dismal, suffering' mind." He is not like Singer in his coyness about how we should treat the infirm, etc (which Pinker does, I know, to wake our innate sense of care for our own as a means of persuading that we extend moral consideration further outside a speciesist realm). And H insists that there are many answers, yes, to how to thrive. And he is not suggesting certain ways of doing that, only that they are possible to study. Too, H is less about /philosophies/ and more about practices that ensure people feel that they are loved and that help them love. He's a neuroscientist and someone bent on changing minds that are both biased for faith-based moralities and biased against science as a method that can help persons thrive from where we are. I do know he's a serious vipassana meditator, which is a non-religious, secular practice, and I know it entails metta bhavana, cultivating love. He does say this, toward The End of Faith, which I got on audiobook in the spring -- it's a book about the ethical harm done by deontological ethics and faith-based religions: ?....we soon discover that 'love' is largely a matter of wishing that others experience happiness rather than suffering; and most of us come to feel that love is more conducive to happiness, both our own and that of others, than hate. There is a circle here that links us to one another: we each want to be happy; the social feeling of love is one of our greatest sources of happiness; and love entails that we be concerned for the happiness of others. We discover that we can be selfish together. This is just a sketch, but it suggests a clear link between ethics and positive human emotions....such observations are the stuff of nascent science.? I found this some months ago (which is what turned me on to Pinker and Patricia Churchland): http://thesciencenetwork.org/programs/the-great-debate/the-great-debate-panel-1 Harris's point is that we can move "love" out of the realm of rules and transcendental fantasies and metaphysics, that have actually kept it cloistered in the human, the "beautiful," and for only those "like us," and that the practice and study of how to love and care for/with others will likely make a better, more affiliative, loving society. Yes, I like Deleuze a lot, the little I've read, having only read his _Essays Critical and Clinical_. It seems like Deleuze and you and me might be in accord on this amoral/moral thing (hope I'm not forcing that accord tho) and, reading your explanation, it feels like if there are any differences it might just be a difference in terms and language. EG, you say "amoral" and (it seems to me) you clearly mean something that I would call ethical or vivifying, which I also think of as "moral" despite that word's stupid history. "The aim of writing," Deleuze says, "is to carry life to the state of a non-personal power" that "vitalizes the collective." But he himself contrasts that vitalizing (which he calls the "ethical") with what he calls "the moral" which he says is just a set of reactive values that exhaust the collective and are against life. Nietzschean in that way. But he insists that (in the words of his editor) this "renunciation of judgment does not deprive one of distinguishing the good from the bad." And here's where I think you and he might speak the same language (and me too, and possibly Catherine and maybe even John, given what I've read) in seeing that cohabitation btw aesthetics and ethics: "Judgment operates w/ preexisting criteria that can never apprehend the creation of the new, and what is of value can only come into existence by 'defying judgment.'" And in his essay "To Have Done With Judgment" he particularly speaks against "systems of cruelty," such as "God" -- and one such system is the system set up to deny us "becoming-animal." He elsewhere is so eloquent on "becoming-minor." I really love him. (BTW, there's a great youtube video in which he speaks as to how he can't stand cats bc "they rub": "I do not like the rubbing." Makes me laugh just to type that! :) -- (I live with five cats and a dog, btw). :) He is interesting on animals, and says that the reason we write is because calves are dying. He outlines four ways to have done with judgment. One of those is "combat"! But, lest we think he means war, which he expressly rejects, he says, "For the baby is combat, and the small is an irreducible locus of forces, the most revealing of forces." "For the baby is combat" -- is very funny. (I find that sort of thing charming somehow, call me a dork). :) So, I share your "wow": I feel like I'm learning a lot from this conversation, its many voices, and am grateful for it. It's changed what I'll teach next semester. It's also helped me find a great debate between Martha Nussbaum (arguing for ethics in lit) and Richard Posner (arguing against ethics & lit) from about ten years ago on Project Muse. And I'm sorry to hear that 50 feels far from 45 - because I already fear that I'm at the cusp of death and that if I age anymore I won't be able to go on. :) But David and Bob and Hal and Finnegan and Anny seem to be doing well for themselves in the 100+ range. :) Very very sorry this is such a long reply!Gabe On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 11:58 AM, sheila black wrote: Gabriel: Well, believe it or not I DO win the older prize. You may be forty-five--that is actually starting to feel young to me!-- but I turned fifty this year, and my oldest daughter is eighteen, which means, she is even MORE energetic--though at times notably less--than people in their twenties. I love the quote "To see what is in front of one's nose needs a constant struggle." I also like the idea of art "vitalizing--" is that the word? via Deleuze/Aristotle--ah, what odd & yet oddly felicitious bedfellows those two make! But I think--though I think in part we are not so far apart in some ways--that I am still less than entirely convinced by Harris's notion (unless I am radically misunderstanding it) that "values are facts about the well-being of conscious creatures." Well-being, health--these are terms I have been considering a great deal and in no small depth. I just put together with co-editors (and now dear friends) Jennifer Bartlett and Mike Northen, Beauty is a Verb, an anthology of American poets with physical disabilities, which contains essays on poetics and poems. I don't mean this to sound like a plug for the book--but one thing we were concerned with was how terms like health or ability--that treacherous word "abled"--could be creatively revisioned or re-formed (maybe the word I am looking for is remixed) through a disability lens. For instance--and I am not writing this defensively, I don't think --you write: I think Harris's point in saying that values are facts about the > well-being of conscious creatures, is (from what I can understand) > something like this: just as we can know that a healthy leg is better > (with exceptions certainly) for the well-being of a creature than a > damaged leg, we can know that a happy, thriving mind is better for a > creature than a dismal, suffering mind. but as a creature with "damaged legs" and, no doubt, in part as a result, an intermittently "dismal, suffering mind" (and who can say what suffering is nascent, what in response to--so that the ill or unable might actually be more accurate bellweathers of what we loosely call 'reality' than the "happy, thriving?") I read this mainly conscious of how relative, partial--and even ironic (as in considered with some irony) all our definitions of what constitutes "happy" or "thriving" must be in order to be ethical in any real way. Put another way, Harris's ideas are one way of putting the garden in order, but not the only way. One issue, for instance, that came up in doing the anthology among many, many of the writers involved was their sense of surprise or curiosity at how much dislike and distrust of people with disabilities most felt existed generally--almost for granted--within society This phenomenon has been well-documented--the notion of the stigma (Ernest Goffman) or scapegoat; most contributors, at some point attributed this active--and even excessive hostility (and not I might add directed at the disabled only, but also more generally in our society at the unfortunate, in general--viz Susan Shweik's recent "The Ugly Laws," the far right's rhetoric against "the poor") to the sense in which the very fact or embodiment of people with physical disabilities--many from birth or accident--threw into question notions of organic fairness--or "equality" except as considered creatively, relatively, though alternate and endlessly dynamic systems of valuation. I recognize it might be a leap from eating animals to the ethics or attitudes around disability, but there is a persistent sense of being able to define terms like "healthy," "good," "ethical," "right," "rational" in your discussion that seems simultaneously to me important and problematic--or in need of being problematized--in order to build a philosophy capacious enough to include the infirm, the odd, the dismal, the perverse, those of "dismal, suffering" mind. (This guy Jonathan Skinner wrote an interesting review of the anthology, which was interesting precisely because he looked at "disability' in terms of eco-poetics: http://jacket2.org/commentary/somatics.) I don't want to get overly spiritual here--obviously religion is the part of the problem--but it seems to me that what Rimbaud said (I think as I get older more of Rimbaud as one of THE most important poets, one I read and read again) in his poem Genie (can't put proper accents in the e-mail): "La musique savant manque a notre desir," which would translate to something like "the music of savants (masters, pedants) is lacking/insufficient for our desire"--bad translation--sorry!--gets at the crux of the problem as far as art and experience, which is that it must always include MORE, what is not shapely, what is not controlled. Why? Simply because in some ways joy or joyfulness--and I love that word "mudita" you put in your last e-mail--springs from our unfettered experience of reality or "being" in the present, which is all we have. This was Neitzche's reason--among others--for hating Christiainity which makes life tolerable by always positing an elsewhere--where life would be better. Being in the present, however, means that one must see everything as valuable, beloved, which is horrible, too, because immediately it makes for terrible choices for the conscious being--what Mark and others have said about everything wanting to live, everything wanting power, everything being dependent on some painful choice. (That girl with the dead puppy--she must be in your present of "joyfulness," too). And the only ethical stance that can incorporate that horror is an empathy--one which perhaps values what seems good but is equally alert to other ways, even oppositional ways--in which other lives, other gardens, other desires (powers?) are constructed. Wow. Now I do feel back in high school having one of those endless meaning of life discussions, but that does appear to me the crux of the conflict--how can an ethics exist that is alert and relative enough--that does not repress in the Derridian sense--so it, in turn, becomes merely another form of what imprisons? I also see a real distinction between what might be sensible and pragmatic (it makes sense for us to stop eating animals given the present state of the planet) and what is ethical or encompassed within a real notion of goodness. As for art--I like the idea of vitalization but I would go further and say that art is always--well not always but often or most truly itself when--amoral and revolutionary--since it must enact the dynamism of the ethical, the moments when power moves or shifts. I love Rimbaud here, for among other things, saying he would not be happy until it was Christmas on earth right here, right now and for everyone and since it wasn't... well, that's the punk "no" I guess--and what is likeable about it: it affirms while having an echo of the horror of such affirmation; In my bad old days I was this huge Flipper fan--they were around the time of the Dead Kennedy's I guess, Black Flag, too, and they had this song "Life," where Will Shatter, the lead singer, would wail, yowl, scream: "Yes, I've found out what living is all about/It's Life! Life!/Life is the only thing worth living for," which was always my favorite because of precisely how unlikely they were to be singing such an affirmative little ditty, which was, of course, exactly the point--and he meant it, sincerely. Sorry for rambling so much--but I am still (obviously) enjoying this discussion. Sheila _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 01:37:55 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 07:37:55 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Christo Message-ID: DENVER ? Federal regulators on Monday approved a $50 million installation of anchored fabric over the Arkansas River in southern Colorado by the artist Christo, whose larger-than-life vision has divided environmentalists, residents and politicians for years over questions of aesthetics, nature and economic impact. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/08/us/United-States-Approves-Christos-Over-the-River-Project-in-Colorado.html?_r=1&hp -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 01:40:18 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 07:40:18 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] The older prize In-Reply-To: <2AFC645E-89B4-4AF4-8455-AE3E0BD6B03F@ripon.edu> References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <2AFC645E-89B4-4AF4-8455-AE3E0BD6B03F@ripon.edu> Message-ID: David, you are only 50! But you are nothing but a boy, and Happy Birthday! On Sun, Nov 6, 2011 at 7:21 PM, Graham, David wrote: > > Well, believe it or not I DO win the older prize. You may be > forty-five--that is actually starting to feel young to me!-- but I turned > fifty this year... > ****************** > You youngsters! I myself just turned 80 (no tributes, please)-- but of > course that's nothing. Jim Cervantes is 82. Hal Johnson is about to turn 89 > (though he'll deny it) & Bob Grumman is so old that he's new. Nothing in > Bob that was in him 50 years ago, in fact. > > Anny B is, I believe, our oldest list member, at 215.... > > =================== > David Graham > Grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > ==================== > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Nov 8 02:20:54 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 02:20:54 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] When poetry in the schools goes wrong... Message-ID: <32479230.1320736854708.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 07:36:16 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 06:36:16 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sheila, Well, am happy to "teach" the book (presumptuous verb notwithstanding). Most likely I'll just read it with students. :) Really looking forward to it -- and, part of me wants to say, am especially looking forward to the essays. Regarding the quoted Harris passage: to be fair, it's a formulary, or a "sketch," as he puts it. It is sappy (though your word "anodyne" is nicer) to speak about "love" in that way, but he's suggesting that it's not something we can't acquire data about. I know it's not cool to suggest that we can acquire data about certain kinds of phenomena, especially social, emotional or cognitive ones, but I've gained increased respect for such efforts over the past few years, especially around the study of "positive" mindstates (there's another problematic term). In short, I don't feel that studying these phenonema is to reduce them. The more we can know about what and who we are, and what are fellow animals are, the better, imo. I don't believe in productivity, but I do believe in the possibility of thriving. Too, am an unregenerate appreciator of the advancements (another problematic notion) in certain political and social institutions over the past 350 yrs or so (I think nation states, peaceful trade and barter, and nationalized justice systems have done, overall, a good job, in pulling us out of vigilantism and interstate violence, with many glaring exceptions, clearly [eg, racial bias in US prisons, which I've seen first hand as a volunteer in 3 of them]. And I am persuaded by studies that show that countries w greater disparity in incomes (like in the US and Portugal) have increased crime, worse health, poorer education, and less sense of personal well-being than countries (like socialist democracies) w more income parity. I like Rawls but want more social parity in terms of wealth and health, which means more social engineering, higher taxes on wealthy people, and increased social organization -- and it's more data and careful study that will get us there, not less. This is something I do think about a lot -- and led me to write that cranky essay that (kind of) partially led to this conversation: "it strikes me that one thing you might consider is the role of power and desire in creating *and *preventing types of empathy. I don't know about you, but I think most art is in some sense about power and desire, or power or desire." I think this is brilliant and I do agree w you and am taken w Deleuze's attack on some kinds of literature as mere fantasy and pathology (he goes there) in that some of it *prevents* a vitalizing of the collective. I guess I don't think Nietzsche (or Blake or really frankly any such valorized charismatic creators) are that useful in such a project. As an ethical thinker, I think Nietzsche was kind of weak, except in his attack on monotheism. I don't know, part of it is he's like an ideational rorshach test (sp?). Too, I feel the artistic ideal of the charismatic creator is something Bourdieu critiques accurately, as just another product of capital. So I don't put much faith in charismatic artistic hero types, like N or artists like Rimbaud (or Keats, boo hoo on me, I know :)). Mostly for the reasons Bourdieu lays out in The Field of Cultural Production, I think we treat literature, all too often, like a religion, with writers (often male) serving as sacred heretics, whose transgressions we sacralize for reasons we're really not even entirely sure about. Now I'm probably raining on everyone's parade, sorry. :) And so to get back to one of the earlier parts of this discussion: yes it's a complex world, but there are clear injustices that require clear effort, even if it means centuries effort. One of them is stop killing our fellow earthlings. I really believe people will look back on us in horror and wonder what the hell we were thinking killing fellow animals in such unprecedented numbers. Poetry that helps that, great. Philosophy that helps that, great. Meditation that helps that, great. Science, great. Literature and books that increase the chances we can expand empathy eventually to include other earthlings, great. Chaining ourselves to CAFO barns full of pigs, great. I really do -- and I use the term purposefully -- think it's a holocaust. "one big gift or power of disability is the way in which at root we--embody--hah!--the threat or presence of the non-productive body." Yes, and I can't help but think of non-human animals when I read this. We can't conceive of many kinds of animals as "non-productive." We can't conceive of a chicken or a pig or a cow as something that isn't FOR us. It is sometimes extremely difficult for me to conceive of even listening to anyone's discourse about social justice -- even someone as esteemed as John Rawls or Audre Lorde -- without wondering how unjust they might be toward the prospect of a "non-productive" pig self or chicken self or cow self. Can they accord such a radically non-productive self the empathy necessary not to make it "productive" by pretending not to partake in its murder while eating it? If we are to talk about respecting non-productive bodies, I'd like to broach the notion of the respect and sovereignty of those who may be differently abled and differently bodied -- but without a voice -- or even without a mode of being or set of percepts -- that we understand. I'm not sure how I feel about notions of transcendence. All I know is we tend to respect a transcendence that points to something "out there" that we think we don't understand. But when that transcendent gap is pointing to the "other" of a pig or a cow or a thing we presume to understand but truly cannot, we dismiss that as a valuable gap to honor -- and we trample across it and kill. In the face of that failure of compassion, too much transcendence, for me, is mere spiritual self-congratulation. I really appreciate the link to Foucault's preface of D&G's Anti-Oedipus. I will read it, count on it. Don't know if I'll read Bataille, though, as for some reason I have this weird antipathy toward him. Not even sure why. (I do NOT recommend _Babyfucker_, btw). I mean, it's basically a re-write of Beckett's _Molloy_ but the guy penetrates babies instead of writes. It's gruesome and I wdn't read it again myself if it weren't something I could discuss with others. And I have to say that I *do* like that notion of Rimbaud's you mention: that a poet's job is to measure the amount of unknown left in the world. Mostly because it seems to enroll the poet as a collector, maker, measurer of the remaining unknowns, as it implies a skeptical inquiry, a measuring, even if it's of the known unknowns (thank you, Donald Rumsfeld). Well, now, that's seriously got to be the longest email of the lot. Poor you. :) Ha!, Gabe On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 9:03 PM, sheila black wrote: > Gabriel: > > First, it is so nice of you to decide to teach my--our book. I hope you > will find it--oh, irony intended, salutary in a dismal mind sort of way, > but seriously (sincerely?) thanks; it > is really awfully kind of you. Maybe I shall look at Mr. Harris, but I > warn you, I am a little afraid of programs of improvability no matter how > intelligently or moderately put > forth; For instance, I find myself really disagreeing with the following > statement by H in the *End of Faith*: > > ...we soon discover that 'love' is largely a matter of wishing that others > experience happiness rather than suffering, and most of us come to feel > that love is more conducive to happiness, both our own and that of others, > than hate. There is a circle here, that links us to one another: we each > want to be happy; the social feeling of love is one of our greatest sources > of happiness, and love entails that we be concerned for the happiness of > others... > > It seems to me this is certainly part of the story, but also like a > child's story of love; I would much rather such a world perhaps--or in some > ways-- but in such a world, I fear I--and I am trying to employ "I" here in > sort of a universal way--would be very much like Emily Bronte's Cathy, > begging the angels to toss her out of heaven so she could return to the > moors--I would not, I mean, be able to imagine myself so denatured when I > have found myself generally much crueler, more partial, urgent in all my > forms of love; I agree it is possible to study ways of "being other" or > "becoming other," but I would not want to reduce to anodyne all the forms > of love (however hard and mortifying at times I may have found them) for > fear of reducing what love might show--namely the ways in which such > difficulty--to "love" or even simply "empathize" entirely with another-- > represents the most pointed challenge or radical assault on the self--and, > as such, to borrow your terminology, perhaps the most compelling way by > which the self might stretch or thrive--embrace a larger circle of > "others." > > Maybe where we disagree is the emphasis we place on the transcendental; I > think you see it as fantasy and, as such, a barrier to what might be a more > "productive" exercise of faculties to create a more ethical, loving, social > world. I think I have less faith than you in the exercise of any power but > the transcendental to cope with what I see as our essentially tragic > structure as individual/social beings. Not to sound hopeless, maybe it is > just that 1) I think I am really v. 19th century in my imagination (I LOVE > Keats!); and 2) like Mark I believe in the realm of the possible--one might > struggle quite hard to see just a small measure of improvement or simply to > re-vivify what is beautiful--and it is still worthwhile to do that. But > any suggestion that--which these Pinkertons and Harrises seem to make--we > might find a kind of means of radical improvement through some sensible > practice or study--that I don't quite really believe; indeed, I tend to see > it as part of the whole realm of "productive" discourse I find > problematic--and, yes, perhaps this is a legacy of being within a "flawed" > body or a "disabled body" (though to be quite honest, I have never actually > found this "disabling" in any real way; rather for me, it has been a sort > of difficult privilege or gift), but I find the whole discourse of > "disability" and "ability" (often focused and enacted "upon" the disabled > individual) points up the problem of how much all of our habits of > thinking have been colonized by economic (capitalist even) ideas of > production; I often think one big gift or power of disability is the way in > which at root we--embody--hah!--the threat or presence of the > non-productive body. (Or would I simply prefer a heaven more > disorderly?). H\Yet there should, shouldn't there, be other ways of > structuring ourselves--this is really a Neiztchian (god, I really can't > spell at this time of day) idea--well, I never know what Neitzche's ideas > quite add up to (don't think I am entirely smart enough), but he is such a > fertile, extraordinary mind, hard not to derive notions from him!--and this > is one: that we must expand our realm of knowing and feeling out of cause > and effect, out of the discourse of trade or barter, out of discourses of > production--or maybe simply that if we *could* do so we would have more > access to the infinite--or to the sensations of the infinite (which, yes, I > suppose, too, we associate with love). > > Well, I could go on--as I have been for e-mail after e-mail (how could I > mind in the slightest yours being so long when mine are even longer?) but > it strikes me that one thing you might consider is the role of power and > desire in creating *and *preventing types of empathy. I don't know about > you, but I think most art is in some sense about power and desire, or power > or desire. I love that you love Deleuze. Not to jump in with lots of > suggestions for your class--which sounds pretty great--I do like that odd > phrase "literature as a technology of empathy," but Delueze and Guattari's > *Anti-Oedipus* might be a text worth considering because of how it posits > society as a series of productions of desire and the role of the family > within that (not positive in their book)--and the way *Anti-Oedipus*seeks collective structures--and the kind of more loving society you seem > to be talking about, but figures these within an arena of how power flows > or doesn't. Hmmm haven't actually read the book in many years so that may > be a terribly simplistic exegis. But I also remember Foucault wrote the > introduction and it was kind of this terrific rant about power and > liberation and not being sad even as you fought against--what did you call > it, ah, yes: *ethical harm done by deontological ethics and faith-based > religions. *Here's a link to it: > http://richardpayton.pbworks.com/w/page/12580685/Preface%20to%20Anti-Oedipus(though I'm guessing you've probably read it before...). Don't know what > babyfucker is but one novel I was compelled by (though kind of vile) about > love and transgression is George Bataille's *Blue of Noon *which he wrote > as a kind of response to Emily Bronte (Oh, that 19th century again--maybe I > love them so much because so much of their literature was created in the > condition of the dismal, the burning, the mortally ill mind, the "present" > of sickness which colors so much of their experience and thought and > reaches such surprising ends....). But, well, it seems worth considering: > empathy as a product of struggle or emerging from a confluence of powers. > Maybe why I LOVE combat baby--there is a very funny/odd French film--sort > of feels like a Dogma film about a downtrodden factory family; you expect > this sort of kitchen sink realism, and then in the middle they have this > baby, and the baby grow wings and becomes this kind of unstoppable, > terrible, amazing force. Ah, well, on defying judgement--lovely > remark--after all this disagreement maybe you, me, Catherine and John can > agree on that idea of the new. And I can also perhaps affirm that fifty is > not really so far from forty-five, just that the death thing feels even a > little closer, which is sometimes terrifying; others oddly vivifying. > > Thanks again--and for your patience with these (v. long!) e-mails. > > Best, > > Sheila > > P.S. Rimbaud--okay, I should shut up about Rimbaud, had this lovely idea > of genius as collective or a collective resource....and also that it was > job of the poet > to measure the amount of unknown left in the world... > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carol.dorf at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 09:01:21 2011 From: carol.dorf at gmail.com (carol dorf) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 06:01:21 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Christo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How about distributing $50 million in arts funding to 500 small presses? On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 10:37 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > DENVER ? Federal regulators on Monday approved a $50 million installation > of anchored fabric over the Arkansas River in southern Colorado by the > artist Christo, whose larger-than-life vision has divided > environmentalists, residents and politicians for years over questions of > aesthetics, nature and economic impact. > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/08/us/United-States-Approves-Christos-Over-the-River-Project-in-Colorado.html?_r=1&hp > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 09:38:56 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 08:38:56 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Christo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: or to children in need. or to native reservations in the southwest. On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 8:01 AM, carol dorf wrote: > How about distributing $50 million in arts funding to 500 small presses? > > On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 10:37 PM, Anny Ballardini < > anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote: > >> DENVER ? Federal regulators on Monday approved a $50 million installation >> of anchored fabric over the Arkansas River in southern Colorado by the >> artist Christo, whose larger-than-life vision has divided >> environmentalists, residents and politicians for years over questions of >> aesthetics, nature and economic impact. >> >> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/08/us/United-States-Approves-Christos-Over-the-River-Project-in-Colorado.html?_r=1&hp >> >> -- >> Anny Ballardini >> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >> star! >> Friedrich Nietzsche >> >> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >> Giovenale >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Tue Nov 8 10:51:13 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 15:51:13 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, , , , , , <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , , , , , Message-ID: Gabriel: My goal for the day--don't laugh--is to write you a SHORT e-mail. Yes, I think I am busted on the sappiness (the anodyne quality as it were) of being a sucker for mystic, pseudo-Christ artists--I hope not all male (!) I was thinking when I read your e-mail--one funny thing--and really I know nothing about you so this may be way off--is that we sort have been enacting (and I hope not over and over) the aesthetic modes of thinking I am suspecting we inherited--me: Scots/Irish Catholic overheated sort of spiritual mysticism longing--and you the protestant (Lutheran?) belief in de-mystifying--in the more practical steps to better thriving. And this though my parents both left the Church and became ardent pseudo-socialist atheists! But I would not argue with you about the basic points you make for what you would like to see happen in the world--not at all--though I think I have less faith than you by far in the ability of groups of people to analyze anything altogether objectively and learn from it, and the phrase "social engineering" does give me shivers. I once was sort of a fly-on-the-wall at a kind of holocaust. When my third child was born, she was in the neo-natal unit at the hospital in Albuquerque for a while, and one of her doctors--she was in for an untreatable RH incompatibility--knowing she also had my condition (XLH), which is often classed "as a form of dwarfism" said there was this series of talks and dialogues going on I might be interested in. Basically, it was a meeting between researchers who had identified the genetic mutation for achondroplasiac dwarfism and representatives of achondroplasiac community. I only sat in on one session----it felt later as if it might have been kind of a dream; especially since later I tried to google the event and could never find any reference to it btw--but I remember it as quite a civilized dialogue. The researchers explaining their thinking; the members of the "little people" community explaining their--regret, sadness; yet the feeling in the room was also, though muted, terribly intense, because no one there seemed to have any doubt that once people could identify in utero this mutation they would not on the whole choose to have children with this condition--and so this culture, this experience, this form of being would vanish. And yet no one was very dramatic about it either, though it felt--and this was what I kept turning over later--that if one simply chose to pay enough, the right kind of attention, it would break your heart. (Have you read Kenzaboro Oe? He is good on these things I think). So who am I to say you are not right about the slaughter of the animals? Yet I also know that there are many right-to-lifers I tend to strenuously disagree with who feel the same about the hordes of the unborn. It is scary to realize, in short--which you start to get at in discussing "even someone as esteemed as John Rawls"-- how relative and inherently limited all our forms of empathy are. Perhaps this is why I balk at the practicality of a Peter Singer, who seeks to delimit in some sense, whereas I--well, I am not sure that is not the wrong way to approach the problem, which might finally be one of consciousness. Which brings me in a roundabout way to art--I am perfectly willing to admit the pseudo-christness of Nietzche, but I do really love Keats--partly simply, purely, for the astounding life of his language, the spark of his line ( I believe---and this I am sure is sentimental, but also true in my experience--that when people tell really big lies, like governmental lies, fascist lies, you can almost always see it in their syntax), but partly because he said "Truth is beauty, beauty is truth," and he meant, I think, to point at how art might a bedfellow or traveling pompanion of ethical thought, but its purpose was really other, not to have a purpose but to be a kind of space where consciousness can be 1) scrupulously exploratory and truthful about what it is; 2) time can be, in a sense, collapsed (the function of the lyric)--the place where everything happens at once, and thus eternity and the moment or the joyfulness of present being. Okay sappy, but (Keats again) "A thing of beauty is a joy forever." However, I don't disagree with you about the idea that phenomena of mind can be studied, nor that this should not be in some degree a purpose of art. I think the rub comes in around that notion of beauty/truth--too often ethical purposes mean we don't or don't dare or forget how to tell the whole story. A few years ago I had a sort of moral crisis--I did not believe in even the potential goodness of most people any more--and the book that consoled me the most was Primo Levi's Survival in Auschwitz (which sounds I know like the punch line to some awful joke) precisely because he was so straightforward, he was so scrupulous about analyzing what he saw and taking no prisoners in terms of asserting that the cruelty, the madness of the camps was a fundamentally human phenomenon--not unique to the Germans, not unique to one type or group of person; that he could do this awed me, really, and also provided deep philosophical consolation, so, yes, I can see completely: "The more we can know about what and who we are, and what are fellow animals are, the better..." Okay, not so short, but not so long either (!) And thanks for this conversation--it has made me think, which is always a joy, if NOT forever.... Sheila P.S. I agree about Bataille; I was trying to think of books I found repellent but ALSO valuable, but here's a better recommendation for you: Juliana Spahr's the Transformation--it covers much of what you seem to want to talk about. And ecology. But whatever you put in, I think it will be a wonderful class for these general writing students...really! Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 06:36:16 -0600 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Sheila, Well, am happy to "teach" the book (presumptuous verb notwithstanding). Most likely I'll just read it with students. :) Really looking forward to it -- and, part of me wants to say, am especially looking forward to the essays. Regarding the quoted Harris passage: to be fair, it's a formulary, or a "sketch," as he puts it. It is sappy (though your word "anodyne" is nicer) to speak about "love" in that way, but he's suggesting that it's not something we can't acquire data about. I know it's not cool to suggest that we can acquire data about certain kinds of phenomena, especially social, emotional or cognitive ones, but I've gained increased respect for such efforts over the past few years, especially around the study of "positive" mindstates (there's another problematic term). In short, I don't feel that studying these phenonema is to reduce them. The more we can know about what and who we are, and what are fellow animals are, the better, imo. I don't believe in productivity, but I do believe in the possibility of thriving. Too, am an unregenerate appreciator of the advancements (another problematic notion) in certain political and social institutions over the past 350 yrs or so (I think nation states, peaceful trade and barter, and nationalized justice systems have done, overall, a good job, in pulling us out of vigilantism and interstate violence, with many glaring exceptions, clearly [eg, racial bias in US prisons, which I've seen first hand as a volunteer in 3 of them]. And I am persuaded by studies that show that countries w greater disparity in incomes (like in the US and Portugal) have increased crime, worse health, poorer education, and less sense of personal well-being than countries (like socialist democracies) w more income parity. I like Rawls but want more social parity in terms of wealth and health, which means more social engineering, higher taxes on wealthy people, and increased social organization -- and it's more data and careful study that will get us there, not less. This is something I do think about a lot -- and led me to write that cranky essay that (kind of) partially led to this conversation: "it strikes me that one thing you might consider is the role of power and desire in creating and preventing types of empathy. I don't know about you, but I think most art is in some sense about power and desire, or power or desire." I think this is brilliant and I do agree w you and am taken w Deleuze's attack on some kinds of literature as mere fantasy and pathology (he goes there) in that some of it prevents a vitalizing of the collective. I guess I don't think Nietzsche (or Blake or really frankly any such valorized charismatic creators) are that useful in such a project. As an ethical thinker, I think Nietzsche was kind of weak, except in his attack on monotheism. I don't know, part of it is he's like an ideational rorshach test (sp?). Too, I feel the artistic ideal of the charismatic creator is something Bourdieu critiques accurately, as just another product of capital. So I don't put much faith in charismatic artistic hero types, like N or artists like Rimbaud (or Keats, boo hoo on me, I know :)). Mostly for the reasons Bourdieu lays out in The Field of Cultural Production, I think we treat literature, all too often, like a religion, with writers (often male) serving as sacred heretics, whose transgressions we sacralize for reasons we're really not even entirely sure about. Now I'm probably raining on everyone's parade, sorry. :) And so to get back to one of the earlier parts of this discussion: yes it's a complex world, but there are clear injustices that require clear effort, even if it means centuries effort. One of them is stop killing our fellow earthlings. I really believe people will look back on us in horror and wonder what the hell we were thinking killing fellow animals in such unprecedented numbers. Poetry that helps that, great. Philosophy that helps that, great. Meditation that helps that, great. Science, great. Literature and books that increase the chances we can expand empathy eventually to include other earthlings, great. Chaining ourselves to CAFO barns full of pigs, great. I really do -- and I use the term purposefully -- think it's a holocaust. "one big gift or power of disability is the way in which at root we--embody--hah!--the threat or presence of the non-productive body." Yes, and I can't help but think of non-human animals when I read this. We can't conceive of many kinds of animals as "non-productive." We can't conceive of a chicken or a pig or a cow as something that isn't FOR us. It is sometimes extremely difficult for me to conceive of even listening to anyone's discourse about social justice -- even someone as esteemed as John Rawls or Audre Lorde -- without wondering how unjust they might be toward the prospect of a "non-productive" pig self or chicken self or cow self. Can they accord such a radically non-productive self the empathy necessary not to make it "productive" by pretending not to partake in its murder while eating it? If we are to talk about respecting non-productive bodies, I'd like to broach the notion of the respect and sovereignty of those who may be differently abled and differently bodied -- but without a voice -- or even without a mode of being or set of percepts -- that we understand. I'm not sure how I feel about notions of transcendence. All I know is we tend to respect a transcendence that points to something "out there" that we think we don't understand. But when that transcendent gap is pointing to the "other" of a pig or a cow or a thing we presume to understand but truly cannot, we dismiss that as a valuable gap to honor -- and we trample across it and kill. In the face of that failure of compassion, too much transcendence, for me, is mere spiritual self-congratulation. I really appreciate the link to Foucault's preface of D&G's Anti-Oedipus. I will read it, count on it. Don't know if I'll read Bataille, though, as for some reason I have this weird antipathy toward him. Not even sure why. (I do NOT recommend _Babyfucker_, btw). I mean, it's basically a re-write of Beckett's _Molloy_ but the guy penetrates babies instead of writes. It's gruesome and I wdn't read it again myself if it weren't something I could discuss with others. And I have to say that I *do* like that notion of Rimbaud's you mention: that a poet's job is to measure the amount of unknown left in the world. Mostly because it seems to enroll the poet as a collector, maker, measurer of the remaining unknowns, as it implies a skeptical inquiry, a measuring, even if it's of the known unknowns (thank you, Donald Rumsfeld). Well, now, that's seriously got to be the longest email of the lot. Poor you. :) Ha!,Gabe On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 9:03 PM, sheila black wrote: Gabriel: First, it is so nice of you to decide to teach my--our book. I hope you will find it--oh, irony intended, salutary in a dismal mind sort of way, but seriously (sincerely?) thanks; it is really awfully kind of you. Maybe I shall look at Mr. Harris, but I warn you, I am a little afraid of programs of improvability no matter how intelligently or moderately put forth; For instance, I find myself really disagreeing with the following statement by H in the End of Faith: ...we soon discover that 'love' is largely a matter of wishing that others experience happiness rather than suffering, and most of us come to feel that love is more conducive to happiness, both our own and that of others, than hate. There is a circle here, that links us to one another: we each want to be happy; the social feeling of love is one of our greatest sources of happiness, and love entails that we be concerned for the happiness of others... It seems to me this is certainly part of the story, but also like a child's story of love; I would much rather such a world perhaps--or in some ways-- but in such a world, I fear I--and I am trying to employ "I" here in sort of a universal way--would be very much like Emily Bronte's Cathy, begging the angels to toss her out of heaven so she could return to the moors--I would not, I mean, be able to imagine myself so denatured when I have found myself generally much crueler, more partial, urgent in all my forms of love; I agree it is possible to study ways of "being other" or "becoming other," but I would not want to reduce to anodyne all the forms of love (however hard and mortifying at times I may have found them) for fear of reducing what love might show--namely the ways in which such difficulty--to "love" or even simply "empathize" entirely with another-- represents the most pointed challenge or radical assault on the self--and, as such, to borrow your terminology, perhaps the most compelling way by which the self might stretch or thrive--embrace a larger circle of "others." Maybe where we disagree is the emphasis we place on the transcendental; I think you see it as fantasy and, as such, a barrier to what might be a more "productive" exercise of faculties to create a more ethical, loving, social world. I think I have less faith than you in the exercise of any power but the transcendental to cope with what I see as our essentially tragic structure as individual/social beings. Not to sound hopeless, maybe it is just that 1) I think I am really v. 19th century in my imagination (I LOVE Keats!); and 2) like Mark I believe in the realm of the possible--one might struggle quite hard to see just a small measure of improvement or simply to re-vivify what is beautiful--and it is still worthwhile to do that. But any suggestion that--which these Pinkertons and Harrises seem to make--we might find a kind of means of radical improvement through some sensible practice or study--that I don't quite really believe; indeed, I tend to see it as part of the whole realm of "productive" discourse I find problematic--and, yes, perhaps this is a legacy of being within a "flawed" body or a "disabled body" (though to be quite honest, I have never actually found this "disabling" in any real way; rather for me, it has been a sort of difficult privilege or gift), but I find the whole discourse of "disability" and "ability" (often focused and enacted "upon" the disabled individual) points up the problem of how much all of our habits of thinking have been colonized by economic (capitalist even) ideas of production; I often think one big gift or power of disability is the way in which at root we--embody--hah!--the threat or presence of the non-productive body. (Or would I simply prefer a heaven more disorderly?). H\Yet there should, shouldn't there, be other ways of structuring ourselves--this is really a Neiztchian (god, I really can't spell at this time of day) idea--well, I never know what Neitzche's ideas quite add up to (don't think I am entirely smart enough), but he is such a fertile, extraordinary mind, hard not to derive notions from him!--and this is one: that we must expand our realm of knowing and feeling out of cause and effect, out of the discourse of trade or barter, out of discourses of production--or maybe simply that if we could do so we would have more access to the infinite--or to the sensations of the infinite (which, yes, I suppose, too, we associate with love). Well, I could go on--as I have been for e-mail after e-mail (how could I mind in the slightest yours being so long when mine are even longer?) but it strikes me that one thing you might consider is the role of power and desire in creating and preventing types of empathy. I don't know about you, but I think most art is in some sense about power and desire, or power or desire. I love that you love Deleuze. Not to jump in with lots of suggestions for your class--which sounds pretty great--I do like that odd phrase "literature as a technology of empathy," but Delueze and Guattari's Anti-Oedipus might be a text worth considering because of how it posits society as a series of productions of desire and the role of the family within that (not positive in their book)--and the way Anti-Oedipus seeks collective structures--and the kind of more loving society you seem to be talking about, but figures these within an arena of how power flows or doesn't. Hmmm haven't actually read the book in many years so that may be a terribly simplistic exegis. But I also remember Foucault wrote the introduction and it was kind of this terrific rant about power and liberation and not being sad even as you fought against--what did you call it, ah, yes: ethical harm done by deontological ethics and faith-based religions. Here's a link to it: http://richardpayton.pbworks.com/w/page/12580685/Preface%20to%20Anti-Oedipus (though I'm guessing you've probably read it before...). Don't know what babyfucker is but one novel I was compelled by (though kind of vile) about love and transgression is George Bataille's Blue of Noon which he wrote as a kind of response to Emily Bronte (Oh, that 19th century again--maybe I love them so much because so much of their literature was created in the condition of the dismal, the burning, the mortally ill mind, the "present" of sickness which colors so much of their experience and thought and reaches such surprising ends....). But, well, it seems worth considering: empathy as a product of struggle or emerging from a confluence of powers. Maybe why I LOVE combat baby--there is a very funny/odd French film--sort of feels like a Dogma film about a downtrodden factory family; you expect this sort of kitchen sink realism, and then in the middle they have this baby, and the baby grow wings and becomes this kind of unstoppable, terrible, amazing force. Ah, well, on defying judgement--lovely remark--after all this disagreement maybe you, me, Catherine and John can agree on that idea of the new. And I can also perhaps affirm that fifty is not really so far from forty-five, just that the death thing feels even a little closer, which is sometimes terrifying; others oddly vivifying. Thanks again--and for your patience with these (v. long!) e-mails. Best, Sheila P.S. Rimbaud--okay, I should shut up about Rimbaud, had this lovely idea of genius as collective or a collective resource....and also that it was job of the poet to measure the amount of unknown left in the world... _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 11:04:54 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 10:04:54 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Just to show one of the extremes of empathy: the younger of Lynda's two sons, when he was a lad, would, if he saw two stones lying on the sidewalk, push them closer together so that they would be less lonely. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 9:51 AM, sheila black wrote: > Gabriel: > > My goal for the day--don't laugh--is to write you a SHORT e-mail. Yes, I > think I am busted on the sappiness (the anodyne quality as it were) of > being a sucker for mystic, pseudo-Christ artists--I hope not all male (!) > I was thinking when I read your e-mail--one funny thing--and really I know > nothing about you so this may be way off--is that we sort have been > enacting (and I hope not over and over) the aesthetic modes of thinking I > am suspecting we inherited--me: Scots/Irish Catholic overheated sort of > spiritual mysticism longing--and you the protestant (Lutheran?) belief in > de-mystifying--in the more practical steps to better thriving. And this > though my parents both left the Church and became ardent pseudo-socialist > atheists! But I would not argue with you about the basic points you make > for what you would like to see happen in the world--not at all--though I > think I have less faith than you by far in the ability of groups of people > to analyze anything altogether objectively and learn from it, and the > phrase "social engineering" does give me shivers. I once was sort of a > fly-on-the-wall at a kind of holocaust. When my third child was born, she > was in the neo-natal unit at the hospital in Albuquerque for a while, and > one of her doctors--she was in for an untreatable RH > incompatibility--knowing she also had my condition (XLH), which is often > classed "as a form of dwarfism" said there was this series of talks and > dialogues going on I might be interested in. Basically, it was a meeting > between researchers who had identified the genetic mutation for achondroplasiac > dwarfism and representatives of achondroplasiac community. I only sat in > on one session----it felt later as if it might have been kind of a dream; > especially since later I tried to google the event and could never find any > reference to it btw--but I remember it as quite a civilized dialogue. > The researchers explaining their thinking; the members of the "little > people" community explaining their--regret, sadness; yet the feeling in the > room was also, though muted, terribly intense, because no one there seemed > to have any doubt that once people could identify in utero this mutation > they would not on the whole choose to have children with this > condition--and so this culture, this experience, this form of being would > vanish. And yet no one was very dramatic about it either, though it > felt--and this was what I kept turning over later--that if one simply chose > to pay enough, the right kind of attention, it would break your heart. > (Have you read Kenzaboro Oe? He is good on these things I think). So who > am I to say you are not right about the slaughter of the animals? Yet I > also know that there are many right-to-lifers I tend to strenuously > disagree with who feel the same about the hordes of the unborn. It is > scary to realize, in short--which you start to get at in discussing "even > someone as esteemed as John Rawls"-- how relative and inherently limited > all our forms of empathy are. Perhaps this is why I balk at the > practicality of a Peter Singer, who seeks to delimit in some sense, whereas > I--well, I am not sure that is not the wrong way to approach the problem, > which might finally be one of consciousness. Which brings me in a > roundabout way to art--I am perfectly willing to admit the > pseudo-christness of Nietzche, but I do really love Keats--partly simply, > purely, for the astounding life of his language, the spark of his line ( I > believe---and this I am sure is sentimental, but also true in my > experience--that when people tell really big lies, like governmental lies, > fascist lies, you can almost always see it in their syntax), but partly > because he said "Truth is beauty, beauty is truth," and he meant, I think, > to point at how art might a bedfellow or traveling pompanion of ethical > thought, but its purpose was really other, not to have a purpose but to be > a kind of space where consciousness can be 1) scrupulously exploratory and > truthful about what it is; 2) time can be, in a sense, collapsed (the > function of the lyric)--the place where everything happens at once, and > thus eternity and the moment or the joyfulness of present being. Okay > sappy, but (Keats again) "A thing of beauty is a joy forever." However, I > don't disagree with you about the idea that phenomena of mind can be > studied, nor that this should not be in some degree a purpose of art. I > think the rub comes in around that notion of beauty/truth--too often > ethical purposes mean we don't or don't dare or forget how to tell the > whole story. A few years ago I had a sort of moral crisis--I did not > believe in even the potential goodness of most people any more--and the > book that consoled me the most was Primo Levi's *Survival in Auschwitz *(which > sounds I know like the punch line to some awful joke) precisely because he > was so straightforward, he was so scrupulous about analyzing what he saw > and taking no prisoners in terms of asserting that the cruelty, the madness > of the camps was a fundamentally human phenomenon--not unique to the > Germans, not unique to one type or group of person; that he could do this > awed me, really, and also provided deep philosophical consolation, so, yes, > I can see completely: "The more we can know about what and who we are, and > what are fellow animals are, the better..." > > Okay, not so short, but not so long either (!) And thanks for this > conversation--it has made me think, which is always a joy, if NOT > forever.... > > Sheila > > P.S. I agree about Bataille; I was trying to think of books I found > repellent but ALSO valuable, but here's a better recommendation for you: > Juliana Spahr's the Transformation--it covers much > of what you seem to want to talk about. And ecology. But whatever you put > in, I think it will be a wonderful class for these general writing > students...really! > > ------------------------------ > Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 06:36:16 -0600 > > From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > Sheila, > > Well, am happy to "teach" the book (presumptuous verb notwithstanding). > Most likely I'll just read it with students. :) Really looking forward to > it -- and, part of me wants to say, am especially looking forward to the > essays. > > Regarding the quoted Harris passage: to be fair, it's a formulary, or a > "sketch," as he puts it. It is sappy (though your word "anodyne" is nicer) > to speak about "love" in that way, but he's suggesting that it's not > something we can't acquire data about. I know it's not cool to suggest that > we can acquire data about certain kinds of phenomena, especially social, > emotional or cognitive ones, but I've gained increased respect for such > efforts over the past few years, especially around the study of "positive" > mindstates (there's another problematic term). > > In short, I don't feel that studying these phenonema is to reduce them. > The more we can know about what and who we are, and what are fellow animals > are, the better, imo. I don't believe in productivity, but I do believe in > the possibility of thriving. > > Too, am an unregenerate appreciator of the advancements (another > problematic notion) in certain political and social institutions over the > past 350 yrs or so (I think nation states, peaceful trade and barter, and > nationalized justice systems have done, overall, a good job, in pulling us > out of vigilantism and interstate violence, with many glaring exceptions, > clearly [eg, racial bias in US prisons, which I've seen first hand as a > volunteer in 3 of them]. And I am persuaded by studies that show that > countries w greater disparity in incomes (like in the US and Portugal) have > increased crime, worse health, poorer education, and less sense of personal > well-being than countries (like socialist democracies) w more income > parity. I like Rawls but want more social parity in terms of wealth and > health, which means more social engineering, higher taxes on wealthy > people, and increased social organization -- and it's more data and careful > study that will get us there, not less. > > This is something I do think about a lot -- and led me to write that > cranky essay that (kind of) partially led to this conversation: "it strikes > me that one thing you might consider is the role of power and desire in > creating *and *preventing types of empathy. I don't know about you, but I > think most art is in some sense about power and desire, or power or > desire." I think this is brilliant and I do agree w you and am taken w > Deleuze's attack on some kinds of literature as mere fantasy and pathology > (he goes there) in that some of it *prevents* a vitalizing of the > collective. > > I guess I don't think Nietzsche (or Blake or really frankly any such > valorized charismatic creators) are that useful in such a project. As an > ethical thinker, I think Nietzsche was kind of weak, except in his attack > on monotheism. I don't know, part of it is he's like an ideational rorshach > test (sp?). Too, I feel the artistic ideal of the charismatic creator is > something Bourdieu critiques accurately, as just another product of > capital. So I don't put much faith in charismatic artistic hero types, like > N or artists like Rimbaud (or Keats, boo hoo on me, I know :)). Mostly for > the reasons Bourdieu lays out in The Field of Cultural Production, I think > we treat literature, all too often, like a religion, with writers (often > male) serving as sacred heretics, whose transgressions we sacralize for > reasons we're really not even entirely sure about. > > Now I'm probably raining on everyone's parade, sorry. :) > > And so to get back to one of the earlier parts of this discussion: yes > it's a complex world, but there are clear injustices that require clear > effort, even if it means centuries effort. One of them is stop killing our > fellow earthlings. I really believe people will look back on us in horror > and wonder what the hell we were thinking killing fellow animals in such > unprecedented numbers. Poetry that helps that, great. Philosophy that helps > that, great. Meditation that helps that, great. Science, great. Literature > and books that increase the chances we can expand empathy eventually to > include other earthlings, great. Chaining ourselves to CAFO barns full of > pigs, great. I really do -- and I use the term purposefully -- think it's a > holocaust. > > "one big gift or power of disability is the way in which at root > we--embody--hah!--the threat or presence of the non-productive body." Yes, > and I can't help but think of non-human animals when I read this. We can't > conceive of many kinds of animals as "non-productive." We can't conceive of > a chicken or a pig or a cow as something that isn't FOR us. It is sometimes > extremely difficult for me to conceive of even listening to anyone's > discourse about social justice -- even someone as esteemed as John Rawls or > Audre Lorde -- without wondering how unjust they might be toward the > prospect of a "non-productive" pig self or chicken self or cow self. Can > they accord such a radically non-productive self the empathy necessary not > to make it "productive" by pretending not to partake in its murder while > eating it? If we are to talk about respecting non-productive bodies, I'd > like to broach the notion of the respect and sovereignty of those who may > be differently abled and differently bodied -- but without a voice -- or > even without a mode of being or set of percepts -- that we understand. > > I'm not sure how I feel about notions of transcendence. All I know is we > tend to respect a transcendence that points to something "out there" that > we think we don't understand. But when that transcendent gap is pointing to > the "other" of a pig or a cow or a thing we presume to understand but truly > cannot, we dismiss that as a valuable gap to honor -- and we trample across > it and kill. In the face of that failure of compassion, too much > transcendence, for me, is mere spiritual self-congratulation. > > I really appreciate the link to Foucault's preface of D&G's Anti-Oedipus. > I will read it, count on it. Don't know if I'll read Bataille, though, as > for some reason I have this weird antipathy toward him. Not even sure why. > (I do NOT recommend _Babyfucker_, btw). I mean, it's basically a re-write > of Beckett's _Molloy_ but the guy penetrates babies instead of writes. It's > gruesome and I wdn't read it again myself if it weren't something I could > discuss with others. > > And I have to say that I *do* like that notion of Rimbaud's you mention: > that a poet's job is to measure the amount of unknown left in the world. > Mostly because it seems to enroll the poet as a collector, maker, measurer > of the remaining unknowns, as it implies a skeptical inquiry, a measuring, > even if it's of the known unknowns (thank you, Donald Rumsfeld). > > Well, now, that's seriously got to be the longest email of the lot. Poor > you. :) > > Ha!, > Gabe > > On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 9:03 PM, sheila black wrote: > > Gabriel: > > First, it is so nice of you to decide to teach my--our book. I hope you > will find it--oh, irony intended, salutary in a dismal mind sort of way, > but seriously (sincerely?) thanks; it > is really awfully kind of you. Maybe I shall look at Mr. Harris, but I > warn you, I am a little afraid of programs of improvability no matter how > intelligently or moderately put > forth; For instance, I find myself really disagreeing with the following > statement by H in the *End of Faith*: > > ...we soon discover that 'love' is largely a matter of wishing that others > experience happiness rather than suffering, and most of us come to feel > that love is more conducive to happiness, both our own and that of others, > than hate. There is a circle here, that links us to one another: we each > want to be happy; the social feeling of love is one of our greatest sources > of happiness, and love entails that we be concerned for the happiness of > others... > > It seems to me this is certainly part of the story, but also like a > child's story of love; I would much rather such a world perhaps--or in some > ways-- but in such a world, I fear I--and I am trying to employ "I" here in > sort of a universal way--would be very much like Emily Bronte's Cathy, > begging the angels to toss her out of heaven so she could return to the > moors--I would not, I mean, be able to imagine myself so denatured when I > have found myself generally much crueler, more partial, urgent in all my > forms of love; I agree it is possible to study ways of "being other" or > "becoming other," but I would not want to reduce to anodyne all the forms > of love (however hard and mortifying at times I may have found them) for > fear of reducing what love might show--namely the ways in which such > difficulty--to "love" or even simply "empathize" entirely with another-- > represents the most pointed challenge or radical assault on the self--and, > as such, to borrow your terminology, perhaps the most compelling way by > which the self might stretch or thrive--embrace a larger circle of > "others." > > Maybe where we disagree is the emphasis we place on the transcendental; I > think you see it as fantasy and, as such, a barrier to what might be a more > "productive" exercise of faculties to create a more ethical, loving, social > world. I think I have less faith than you in the exercise of any power but > the transcendental to cope with what I see as our essentially tragic > structure as individual/social beings. Not to sound hopeless, maybe it is > just that 1) I think I am really v. 19th century in my imagination (I LOVE > Keats!); and 2) like Mark I believe in the realm of the possible--one might > struggle quite hard to see just a small measure of improvement or simply to > re-vivify what is beautiful--and it is still worthwhile to do that. But > any suggestion that--which these Pinkertons and Harrises seem to make--we > might find a kind of means of radical improvement through some sensible > practice or study--that I don't quite really believe; indeed, I tend to see > it as part of the whole realm of "productive" discourse I find > problematic--and, yes, perhaps this is a legacy of being within a "flawed" > body or a "disabled body" (though to be quite honest, I have never actually > found this "disabling" in any real way; rather for me, it has been a sort > of difficult privilege or gift), but I find the whole discourse of > "disability" and "ability" (often focused and enacted "upon" the disabled > individual) points up the problem of how much all of our habits of > thinking have been colonized by economic (capitalist even) ideas of > production; I often think one big gift or power of disability is the way in > which at root we--embody--hah!--the threat or presence of the > non-productive body. (Or would I simply prefer a heaven more > disorderly?). H\Yet there should, shouldn't there, be other ways of > structuring ourselves--this is really a Neiztchian (god, I really can't > spell at this time of day) idea--well, I never know what Neitzche's ideas > quite add up to (don't think I am entirely smart enough), but he is such a > fertile, extraordinary mind, hard not to derive notions from him!--and this > is one: that we must expand our realm of knowing and feeling out of cause > and effect, out of the discourse of trade or barter, out of discourses of > production--or maybe simply that if we *could* do so we would have more > access to the infinite--or to the sensations of the infinite (which, yes, I > suppose, too, we associate with love). > > Well, I could go on--as I have been for e-mail after e-mail (how could I > mind in the slightest yours being so long when mine are even longer?) but > it strikes me that one thing you might consider is the role of power and > desire in creating *and *preventing types of empathy. I don't know about > you, but I think most art is in some sense about power and desire, or power > or desire. I love that you love Deleuze. Not to jump in with lots of > suggestions for your class--which sounds pretty great--I do like that odd > phrase "literature as a technology of empathy," but Delueze and Guattari's > *Anti-Oedipus* might be a text worth considering because of how it posits > society as a series of productions of desire and the role of the family > within that (not positive in their book)--and the way *Anti-Oedipus*seeks collective structures--and the kind of more loving society you seem > to be talking about, but figures these within an arena of how power flows > or doesn't. Hmmm haven't actually read the book in many years so that may > be a terribly simplistic exegis. But I also remember Foucault wrote the > introduction and it was kind of this terrific rant about power and > liberation and not being sad even as you fought against--what did you call > it, ah, yes: *ethical harm done by deontological ethics and faith-based > religions. *Here's a link to it: > http://richardpayton.pbworks.com/w/page/12580685/Preface%20to%20Anti-Oedipus(though I'm guessing you've probably read it before...). Don't know what > babyfucker is but one novel I was compelled by (though kind of vile) about > love and transgression is George Bataille's *Blue of Noon *which he wrote > as a kind of response to Emily Bronte (Oh, that 19th century again--maybe I > love them so much because so much of their literature was created in the > condition of the dismal, the burning, the mortally ill mind, the "present" > of sickness which colors so much of their experience and thought and > reaches such surprising ends....). But, well, it seems worth considering: > empathy as a product of struggle or emerging from a confluence of powers. > Maybe why I LOVE combat baby--there is a very funny/odd French film--sort > of feels like a Dogma film about a downtrodden factory family; you expect > this sort of kitchen sink realism, and then in the middle they have this > baby, and the baby grow wings and becomes this kind of unstoppable, > terrible, amazing force. Ah, well, on defying judgement--lovely > remark--after all this disagreement maybe you, me, Catherine and John can > agree on that idea of the new. And I can also perhaps affirm that fifty is > not really so far from forty-five, just that the death thing feels even a > little closer, which is sometimes terrifying; others oddly vivifying. > > Thanks again--and for your patience with these (v. long!) e-mails. > > Best, > > Sheila > > P.S. Rimbaud--okay, I should shut up about Rimbaud, had this lovely idea > of genius as collective or a collective resource....and also that it was > job of the poet > to measure the amount of unknown left in the world... > > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Nov 8 11:10:19 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 11:10:19 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <1464535.1320768619912.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Tue Nov 8 11:10:14 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 16:10:14 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, , , , , , <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , , , , , , , Message-ID: Oh, I love this! Those happy lonely stones to have a kid around to give them a shove.... Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 10:04:54 -0600 From: halvard at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Just to show one of the extremes of empathy: the younger of Lynda's two sons, when he was a lad, would, if he saw two stones lying on the sidewalk, push them closer together so that they would be less lonely. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.orghttp://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II), Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III), Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 9:51 AM, sheila black wrote: Gabriel: My goal for the day--don't laugh--is to write you a SHORT e-mail. Yes, I think I am busted on the sappiness (the anodyne quality as it were) of being a sucker for mystic, pseudo-Christ artists--I hope not all male (!) I was thinking when I read your e-mail--one funny thing--and really I know nothing about you so this may be way off--is that we sort have been enacting (and I hope not over and over) the aesthetic modes of thinking I am suspecting we inherited--me: Scots/Irish Catholic overheated sort of spiritual mysticism longing--and you the protestant (Lutheran?) belief in de-mystifying--in the more practical steps to better thriving. And this though my parents both left the Church and became ardent pseudo-socialist atheists! But I would not argue with you about the basic points you make for what you would like to see happen in the world--not at all--though I think I have less faith than you by far in the ability of groups of people to analyze anything altogether objectively and learn from it, and the phrase "social engineering" does give me shivers. I once was sort of a fly-on-the-wall at a kind of holocaust. When my third child was born, she was in the neo-natal unit at the hospital in Albuquerque for a while, and one of her doctors--she was in for an untreatable RH incompatibility--knowing she also had my condition (XLH), which is often classed "as a form of dwarfism" said there was this series of talks and dialogues going on I might be interested in. Basically, it was a meeting between researchers who had identified the genetic mutation for achondroplasiac dwarfism and representatives of achondroplasiac community. I only sat in on one session----it felt later as if it might have been kind of a dream; especially since later I tried to google the event and could never find any reference to it btw--but I remember it as quite a civilized dialogue. The researchers explaining their thinking; the members of the "little people" community explaining their--regret, sadness; yet the feeling in the room was also, though muted, terribly intense, because no one there seemed to have any doubt that once people could identify in utero this mutation they would not on the whole choose to have children with this condition--and so this culture, this experience, this form of being would vanish. And yet no one was very dramatic about it either, though it felt--and this was what I kept turning over later--that if one simply chose to pay enough, the right kind of attention, it would break your heart. (Have you read Kenzaboro Oe? He is good on these things I think). So who am I to say you are not right about the slaughter of the animals? Yet I also know that there are many right-to-lifers I tend to strenuously disagree with who feel the same about the hordes of the unborn. It is scary to realize, in short--which you start to get at in discussing "even someone as esteemed as John Rawls"-- how relative and inherently limited all our forms of empathy are. Perhaps this is why I balk at the practicality of a Peter Singer, who seeks to delimit in some sense, whereas I--well, I am not sure that is not the wrong way to approach the problem, which might finally be one of consciousness. Which brings me in a roundabout way to art--I am perfectly willing to admit the pseudo-christness of Nietzche, but I do really love Keats--partly simply, purely, for the astounding life of his language, the spark of his line ( I believe---and this I am sure is sentimental, but also true in my experience--that when people tell really big lies, like governmental lies, fascist lies, you can almost always see it in their syntax), but partly because he said "Truth is beauty, beauty is truth," and he meant, I think, to point at how art might a bedfellow or traveling pompanion of ethical thought, but its purpose was really other, not to have a purpose but to be a kind of space where consciousness can be 1) scrupulously exploratory and truthful about what it is; 2) time can be, in a sense, collapsed (the function of the lyric)--the place where everything happens at once, and thus eternity and the moment or the joyfulness of present being. Okay sappy, but (Keats again) "A thing of beauty is a joy forever." However, I don't disagree with you about the idea that phenomena of mind can be studied, nor that this should not be in some degree a purpose of art. I think the rub comes in around that notion of beauty/truth--too often ethical purposes mean we don't or don't dare or forget how to tell the whole story. A few years ago I had a sort of moral crisis--I did not believe in even the potential goodness of most people any more--and the book that consoled me the most was Primo Levi's Survival in Auschwitz (which sounds I know like the punch line to some awful joke) precisely because he was so straightforward, he was so scrupulous about analyzing what he saw and taking no prisoners in terms of asserting that the cruelty, the madness of the camps was a fundamentally human phenomenon--not unique to the Germans, not unique to one type or group of person; that he could do this awed me, really, and also provided deep philosophical consolation, so, yes, I can see completely: "The more we can know about what and who we are, and what are fellow animals are, the better..." Okay, not so short, but not so long either (!) And thanks for this conversation--it has made me think, which is always a joy, if NOT forever.... Sheila P.S. I agree about Bataille; I was trying to think of books I found repellent but ALSO valuable, but here's a better recommendation for you: Juliana Spahr's the Transformation--it covers much of what you seem to want to talk about. And ecology. But whatever you put in, I think it will be a wonderful class for these general writing students...really! Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 06:36:16 -0600 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Sheila, Well, am happy to "teach" the book (presumptuous verb notwithstanding). Most likely I'll just read it with students. :) Really looking forward to it -- and, part of me wants to say, am especially looking forward to the essays. Regarding the quoted Harris passage: to be fair, it's a formulary, or a "sketch," as he puts it. It is sappy (though your word "anodyne" is nicer) to speak about "love" in that way, but he's suggesting that it's not something we can't acquire data about. I know it's not cool to suggest that we can acquire data about certain kinds of phenomena, especially social, emotional or cognitive ones, but I've gained increased respect for such efforts over the past few years, especially around the study of "positive" mindstates (there's another problematic term). In short, I don't feel that studying these phenonema is to reduce them. The more we can know about what and who we are, and what are fellow animals are, the better, imo. I don't believe in productivity, but I do believe in the possibility of thriving. Too, am an unregenerate appreciator of the advancements (another problematic notion) in certain political and social institutions over the past 350 yrs or so (I think nation states, peaceful trade and barter, and nationalized justice systems have done, overall, a good job, in pulling us out of vigilantism and interstate violence, with many glaring exceptions, clearly [eg, racial bias in US prisons, which I've seen first hand as a volunteer in 3 of them]. And I am persuaded by studies that show that countries w greater disparity in incomes (like in the US and Portugal) have increased crime, worse health, poorer education, and less sense of personal well-being than countries (like socialist democracies) w more income parity. I like Rawls but want more social parity in terms of wealth and health, which means more social engineering, higher taxes on wealthy people, and increased social organization -- and it's more data and careful study that will get us there, not less. This is something I do think about a lot -- and led me to write that cranky essay that (kind of) partially led to this conversation: "it strikes me that one thing you might consider is the role of power and desire in creating and preventing types of empathy. I don't know about you, but I think most art is in some sense about power and desire, or power or desire." I think this is brilliant and I do agree w you and am taken w Deleuze's attack on some kinds of literature as mere fantasy and pathology (he goes there) in that some of it prevents a vitalizing of the collective. I guess I don't think Nietzsche (or Blake or really frankly any such valorized charismatic creators) are that useful in such a project. As an ethical thinker, I think Nietzsche was kind of weak, except in his attack on monotheism. I don't know, part of it is he's like an ideational rorshach test (sp?). Too, I feel the artistic ideal of the charismatic creator is something Bourdieu critiques accurately, as just another product of capital. So I don't put much faith in charismatic artistic hero types, like N or artists like Rimbaud (or Keats, boo hoo on me, I know :)). Mostly for the reasons Bourdieu lays out in The Field of Cultural Production, I think we treat literature, all too often, like a religion, with writers (often male) serving as sacred heretics, whose transgressions we sacralize for reasons we're really not even entirely sure about. Now I'm probably raining on everyone's parade, sorry. :) And so to get back to one of the earlier parts of this discussion: yes it's a complex world, but there are clear injustices that require clear effort, even if it means centuries effort. One of them is stop killing our fellow earthlings. I really believe people will look back on us in horror and wonder what the hell we were thinking killing fellow animals in such unprecedented numbers. Poetry that helps that, great. Philosophy that helps that, great. Meditation that helps that, great. Science, great. Literature and books that increase the chances we can expand empathy eventually to include other earthlings, great. Chaining ourselves to CAFO barns full of pigs, great. I really do -- and I use the term purposefully -- think it's a holocaust. "one big gift or power of disability is the way in which at root we--embody--hah!--the threat or presence of the non-productive body." Yes, and I can't help but think of non-human animals when I read this. We can't conceive of many kinds of animals as "non-productive." We can't conceive of a chicken or a pig or a cow as something that isn't FOR us. It is sometimes extremely difficult for me to conceive of even listening to anyone's discourse about social justice -- even someone as esteemed as John Rawls or Audre Lorde -- without wondering how unjust they might be toward the prospect of a "non-productive" pig self or chicken self or cow self. Can they accord such a radically non-productive self the empathy necessary not to make it "productive" by pretending not to partake in its murder while eating it? If we are to talk about respecting non-productive bodies, I'd like to broach the notion of the respect and sovereignty of those who may be differently abled and differently bodied -- but without a voice -- or even without a mode of being or set of percepts -- that we understand. I'm not sure how I feel about notions of transcendence. All I know is we tend to respect a transcendence that points to something "out there" that we think we don't understand. But when that transcendent gap is pointing to the "other" of a pig or a cow or a thing we presume to understand but truly cannot, we dismiss that as a valuable gap to honor -- and we trample across it and kill. In the face of that failure of compassion, too much transcendence, for me, is mere spiritual self-congratulation. I really appreciate the link to Foucault's preface of D&G's Anti-Oedipus. I will read it, count on it. Don't know if I'll read Bataille, though, as for some reason I have this weird antipathy toward him. Not even sure why. (I do NOT recommend _Babyfucker_, btw). I mean, it's basically a re-write of Beckett's _Molloy_ but the guy penetrates babies instead of writes. It's gruesome and I wdn't read it again myself if it weren't something I could discuss with others. And I have to say that I *do* like that notion of Rimbaud's you mention: that a poet's job is to measure the amount of unknown left in the world. Mostly because it seems to enroll the poet as a collector, maker, measurer of the remaining unknowns, as it implies a skeptical inquiry, a measuring, even if it's of the known unknowns (thank you, Donald Rumsfeld). Well, now, that's seriously got to be the longest email of the lot. Poor you. :) Ha!,Gabe On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 9:03 PM, sheila black wrote: Gabriel: First, it is so nice of you to decide to teach my--our book. I hope you will find it--oh, irony intended, salutary in a dismal mind sort of way, but seriously (sincerely?) thanks; it is really awfully kind of you. Maybe I shall look at Mr. Harris, but I warn you, I am a little afraid of programs of improvability no matter how intelligently or moderately put forth; For instance, I find myself really disagreeing with the following statement by H in the End of Faith: ...we soon discover that 'love' is largely a matter of wishing that others experience happiness rather than suffering, and most of us come to feel that love is more conducive to happiness, both our own and that of others, than hate. There is a circle here, that links us to one another: we each want to be happy; the social feeling of love is one of our greatest sources of happiness, and love entails that we be concerned for the happiness of others... It seems to me this is certainly part of the story, but also like a child's story of love; I would much rather such a world perhaps--or in some ways-- but in such a world, I fear I--and I am trying to employ "I" here in sort of a universal way--would be very much like Emily Bronte's Cathy, begging the angels to toss her out of heaven so she could return to the moors--I would not, I mean, be able to imagine myself so denatured when I have found myself generally much crueler, more partial, urgent in all my forms of love; I agree it is possible to study ways of "being other" or "becoming other," but I would not want to reduce to anodyne all the forms of love (however hard and mortifying at times I may have found them) for fear of reducing what love might show--namely the ways in which such difficulty--to "love" or even simply "empathize" entirely with another-- represents the most pointed challenge or radical assault on the self--and, as such, to borrow your terminology, perhaps the most compelling way by which the self might stretch or thrive--embrace a larger circle of "others." Maybe where we disagree is the emphasis we place on the transcendental; I think you see it as fantasy and, as such, a barrier to what might be a more "productive" exercise of faculties to create a more ethical, loving, social world. I think I have less faith than you in the exercise of any power but the transcendental to cope with what I see as our essentially tragic structure as individual/social beings. Not to sound hopeless, maybe it is just that 1) I think I am really v. 19th century in my imagination (I LOVE Keats!); and 2) like Mark I believe in the realm of the possible--one might struggle quite hard to see just a small measure of improvement or simply to re-vivify what is beautiful--and it is still worthwhile to do that. But any suggestion that--which these Pinkertons and Harrises seem to make--we might find a kind of means of radical improvement through some sensible practice or study--that I don't quite really believe; indeed, I tend to see it as part of the whole realm of "productive" discourse I find problematic--and, yes, perhaps this is a legacy of being within a "flawed" body or a "disabled body" (though to be quite honest, I have never actually found this "disabling" in any real way; rather for me, it has been a sort of difficult privilege or gift), but I find the whole discourse of "disability" and "ability" (often focused and enacted "upon" the disabled individual) points up the problem of how much all of our habits of thinking have been colonized by economic (capitalist even) ideas of production; I often think one big gift or power of disability is the way in which at root we--embody--hah!--the threat or presence of the non-productive body. (Or would I simply prefer a heaven more disorderly?). H\Yet there should, shouldn't there, be other ways of structuring ourselves--this is really a Neiztchian (god, I really can't spell at this time of day) idea--well, I never know what Neitzche's ideas quite add up to (don't think I am entirely smart enough), but he is such a fertile, extraordinary mind, hard not to derive notions from him!--and this is one: that we must expand our realm of knowing and feeling out of cause and effect, out of the discourse of trade or barter, out of discourses of production--or maybe simply that if we could do so we would have more access to the infinite--or to the sensations of the infinite (which, yes, I suppose, too, we associate with love). Well, I could go on--as I have been for e-mail after e-mail (how could I mind in the slightest yours being so long when mine are even longer?) but it strikes me that one thing you might consider is the role of power and desire in creating and preventing types of empathy. I don't know about you, but I think most art is in some sense about power and desire, or power or desire. I love that you love Deleuze. Not to jump in with lots of suggestions for your class--which sounds pretty great--I do like that odd phrase "literature as a technology of empathy," but Delueze and Guattari's Anti-Oedipus might be a text worth considering because of how it posits society as a series of productions of desire and the role of the family within that (not positive in their book)--and the way Anti-Oedipus seeks collective structures--and the kind of more loving society you seem to be talking about, but figures these within an arena of how power flows or doesn't. Hmmm haven't actually read the book in many years so that may be a terribly simplistic exegis. But I also remember Foucault wrote the introduction and it was kind of this terrific rant about power and liberation and not being sad even as you fought against--what did you call it, ah, yes: ethical harm done by deontological ethics and faith-based religions. Here's a link to it: http://richardpayton.pbworks.com/w/page/12580685/Preface%20to%20Anti-Oedipus (though I'm guessing you've probably read it before...). Don't know what babyfucker is but one novel I was compelled by (though kind of vile) about love and transgression is George Bataille's Blue of Noon which he wrote as a kind of response to Emily Bronte (Oh, that 19th century again--maybe I love them so much because so much of their literature was created in the condition of the dismal, the burning, the mortally ill mind, the "present" of sickness which colors so much of their experience and thought and reaches such surprising ends....). But, well, it seems worth considering: empathy as a product of struggle or emerging from a confluence of powers. Maybe why I LOVE combat baby--there is a very funny/odd French film--sort of feels like a Dogma film about a downtrodden factory family; you expect this sort of kitchen sink realism, and then in the middle they have this baby, and the baby grow wings and becomes this kind of unstoppable, terrible, amazing force. Ah, well, on defying judgement--lovely remark--after all this disagreement maybe you, me, Catherine and John can agree on that idea of the new. And I can also perhaps affirm that fifty is not really so far from forty-five, just that the death thing feels even a little closer, which is sometimes terrifying; others oddly vivifying. Thanks again--and for your patience with these (v. long!) e-mails. Best, Sheila P.S. Rimbaud--okay, I should shut up about Rimbaud, had this lovely idea of genius as collective or a collective resource....and also that it was job of the poet to measure the amount of unknown left in the world... _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Nov 8 11:15:34 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 11:15:34 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <23963838.1320768934990.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Tue Nov 8 11:20:40 2011 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2011 10:20:40 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Christo In-Reply-To: Message-ID: The headline may make it appear that $50M in federal money is going toward Christo?s project. If this project is like his others, though, the reverse is true. Christo raises all the money himself, and in fact usually his works generate considerable revenue and even jobs for the localities. Which is one reason he?s been so successful wrapping bridges, buildings, and so forth in the past. Once they understand what he intends, the bean counters and tourist boards tend to love him. The environmental impact of his works is another matter, as are the aesthetics. But his stuff isn?t an example of your tax dollars at work. Perhaps we could persuade him to wrap the NewPoetry list in the future, and we?d all make a ton of bucks. . . . On 11/8/11 8:01 AM, "carol dorf" wrote: > How about distributing $50 million in arts funding to 500 small presses? > > On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 10:37 PM, Anny Ballardini > wrote: >> DENVER ? Federal regulators on Monday approved a $50 million installation of >> anchored fabric over the Arkansas River in southern Colorado by the artist >> Christo, whose larger-than-life vision has divided environmentalists, >> residents and politicians for years over questions of aesthetics, nature and >> economic impact. >> >> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/08/us/United-States-Approves-Christos-Over-the >> -River-Project-in-Colorado.html?_r=1&hp -- ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 11:22:40 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 10:22:40 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <1464535.1320768619912.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <1464535.1320768619912.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Can't tell the comments from the commented upon here. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 10:10 AM, wrote: > A couple of comments and questions, not to be taken as hostile (because > not meant to be. > > **** > > In short, I don't feel that studying these phenonema is to reduce them. > The more we can know about what and who we are, and what are fellow animals > are, the better, imo. I don't believe in productivity, but I do believe in > the possibility of thriving. > > Too, am an unregenerate appreciator of the advancements (another > problematic notion) in certain political and social institutions over the > past 350 yrs or so (I think nation states, peaceful trade and barter, and > nationalized justice systems have done, overall, a good job, in pulling us > out of vigilantism and interstate violence, with many glaring exceptions, > clearly [eg, racial bias in US prisons, which I've seen first hand as a > volunteer in 3 of them]. And I am persuaded by studies that show that > countries w greater disparity in incomes (like in the US and Portugal) have > increased crime, worse health, poorer education, and less sense of personal > well-being than countries (like socialist democracies) w more income > parity. I like Rawls but want more social parity in terms of wealth and > health, which means more social engineering, higher taxes on wealthy > people, and increased social organization -- and it's more data and careful > study that will get us there, not less. > > > The caveat is that conditions of scarcity continue to generate mass > violence, and in large parts of the world we can expect more of those as > more environments are stressed by climate change. While fewer borders means > fewer border wars, the utterly barbaric is always ready to reassert itself, > and we're not likely to see a change in the composition of those seeking > power, narcissists and sociopaths. > > > > I guess I don't think Nietzsche (or Blake or really frankly any such > valorized charismatic creators) are that useful in such a project. As an > ethical thinker, I think Nietzsche was kind of weak, except in his attack > on monotheism. I don't know, part of it is he's like an ideational rorshach > test (sp?). Too, I feel the artistic ideal of the charismatic creator is > something Bourdieu critiques accurately, as just another product of > capital. So I don't put much faith in charismatic artistic hero types, like > N or artists like Rimbaud (or Keats, boo hoo on me, I know :)). Mostly for > the reasons Bourdieu lays out in The Field of Cultural Production, I think > we treat literature, all too often, like a religion, with writers (often > male) serving as sacred heretics, whose transgressions we sacralize for > reasons we're really not even entirely sure about. > > > > Right. Sacralize bad--but learn from, if we choose, good. > > > > > And so to get back to one of the earlier parts of this discussion: yes > it's a complex world, but there are clear injustices that require clear > effort, even if it means centuries effort. One of them is stop killing our > fellow earthlings. I really believe people will look back on us in horror > and wonder what the hell we were thinking killing fellow animals in such > unprecedented numbers. > > > > As you say, a matter of belief--faith, which requires little proof. And > admirable in itself. But: > > > Poetry that helps that, great. Philosophy that helps that, great. > Meditation that helps that, great. Science, great. Literature and books > that increase the chances we can expand empathy eventually to include other > earthlings, great. Chaining ourselves to CAFO barns full of pigs, great. I > really do -- and I use the term purposefully -- think it's a holocaust. > > > Once again, where we disagree is on the nature and responsibility of art, > which after all is what brings us to this list. There's a famous talmudic > statement, "Don't make the torah your axe." Don't use it for one's > personal platform. We've seen where this too often has taken us in the past > and too often still does. I don't doubt for a second that human societies > are still capable of burning "counterproductive" art and throwing the > artists on the pyre for good measure. And there's the question of how > thisidea of helpful art jibes with art as the measure of what remains > unknown. > > > > > > **** > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 11:25:11 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 10:25:11 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Christo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think he'd do better to wrap up the entire GOP, thus making it easer to remove it to some landfill. I know some of you think we ought to recycle it, but, take my word for it: nothing there to recycle. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 10:20 AM, David Graham wrote: > The headline may make it appear that $50M in federal money is going > toward Christo?s project. If this project is like his others, though, the > reverse is true. Christo raises all the money himself, and in fact usually > his works generate considerable revenue and even jobs for the localities. > Which is one reason he?s been so successful wrapping bridges, buildings, > and so forth in the past. Once they understand what he intends, the bean > counters and tourist boards tend to love him. > > The environmental impact of his works is another matter, as are the > aesthetics. But his stuff isn?t an example of your tax dollars at work. > > Perhaps we could persuade him to wrap the NewPoetry list in the future, > and we?d all make a ton of bucks. . . . > > > On 11/8/11 8:01 AM, "carol dorf" wrote: > > How about distributing $50 million in arts funding to 500 small presses? > > On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 10:37 PM, Anny Ballardini < > anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote: > > DENVER ? Federal regulators on Monday approved a $50 million installation > of anchored fabric over the Arkansas River in southern Colorado by the > artist Christo, whose larger-than-life vision has divided > environmentalists, residents and politicians for years over questions of > aesthetics, nature and economic impact. > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/08/us/United-States-Approves-Christos-Over-the-River-Project-in-Colorado.html?_r=1&hp > > > -- > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Tue Nov 8 11:23:46 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 16:23:46 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <1464535.1320768619912.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <1464535.1320768619912.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: I think you hit the crux of it for me Mark--the way art plays and doesn't into this; which seems painfully important! Sheila Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 11:10:19 -0500 From: junction at earthlink.net To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption A couple of comments and questions, not to be taken as hostile (because not meant to be. In short, I don't feel that studying these phenonema is to reduce them. The more we can know about what and who we are, and what are fellow animals are, the better, imo. I don't believe in productivity, but I do believe in the possibility of thriving. Too, am an unregenerate appreciator of the advancements (another problematic notion) in certain political and social institutions over the past 350 yrs or so (I think nation states, peaceful trade and barter, and nationalized justice systems have done, overall, a good job, in pulling us out of vigilantism and interstate violence, with many glaring exceptions, clearly [eg, racial bias in US prisons, which I've seen first hand as a volunteer in 3 of them]. And I am persuaded by studies that show that countries w greater disparity in incomes (like in the US and Portugal) have increased crime, worse health, poorer education, and less sense of personal well-being than countries (like socialist democracies) w more income parity. I like Rawls but want more social parity in terms of wealth and health, which means more social engineering, higher taxes on wealthy people, and increased social organization -- and it's more data and careful study that will get us there, not less. The caveat is that conditions of scarcity continue to generate mass violence, and in large parts of the world we can expect more of those as more environments are stressed by climate change. While fewer borders means fewer border wars, the utterly barbaric is always ready to reassert itself, and we're not likely to see a change in the composition of those seeking power, narcissists and sociopaths. I guess I don't think Nietzsche (or Blake or really frankly any such valorized charismatic creators) are that useful in such a project. As an ethical thinker, I think Nietzsche was kind of weak, except in his attack on monotheism. I don't know, part of it is he's like an ideational rorshach test (sp?). Too, I feel the artistic ideal of the charismatic creator is something Bourdieu critiques accurately, as just another product of capital. So I don't put much faith in charismatic artistic hero types, like N or artists like Rimbaud (or Keats, boo hoo on me, I know :)). Mostly for the reasons Bourdieu lays out in The Field of Cultural Production, I think we treat literature, all too often, like a religion, with writers (often male) serving as sacred heretics, whose transgressions we sacralize for reasons we're really not even entirely sure about. Right. Sacralize bad--but learn from, if we choose, good. And so to get back to one of the earlier parts of this discussion: yes it's a complex world, but there are clear injustices that require clear effort, even if it means centuries effort. One of them is stop killing our fellow earthlings. I really believe people will look back on us in horror and wonder what the hell we were thinking killing fellow animals in such unprecedented numbers. As you say, a matter of belief--faith, which requires little proof. And admirable in itself. But: Poetry that helps that, great. Philosophy that helps that, great. Meditation that helps that, great. Science, great. Literature and books that increase the chances we can expand empathy eventually to include other earthlings, great. Chaining ourselves to CAFO barns full of pigs, great. I really do -- and I use the term purposefully -- think it's a holocaust. Once again, where we disagree is on the nature and responsibility of art, which after all is what brings us to this list. There's a famous talmudic statement, "Don't make the torah your axe." Don't use it for one's personal platform. We've seen where this too often has taken us in the past and too often still does. I don't doubt for a second that human societies are still capable of burning "counterproductive" art and throwing the artists on the pyre for good measure. And there's the question of how thisidea of helpful art jibes with art as the measure of what remains unknown. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Nov 8 11:27:53 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 11:27:53 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Christo Message-ID: <30394276.1320769674457.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Nov 8 11:31:17 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 11:31:17 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <15374932.1320769877304.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Tue Nov 8 12:36:33 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 12:36:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Thin living, Millay home in NYC Message-ID: <8CE6C541781FBE4-C4C-1C7485@webmail-m143.sysops.aol.com> http://realestate.aol.com/blog/2011/11/07/house-of-the-day-rich-and-thin-nycs-skinniest-home/?ncid=webmail11 The skinniest house in New York City has already served its prior tenants well, since it was at 75.5 Bedford St. where the great American poet Edna St. Vincent Millay wrote the poem that won her the Pulitzer Prize. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 12:45:59 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 11:45:59 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Thin living, Millay home in NYC In-Reply-To: <8CE6C541781FBE4-C4C-1C7485@webmail-m143.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE6C541781FBE4-C4C-1C7485@webmail-m143.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Passed that house many, many times. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175 http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 11:36 AM, wrote: > > > http://realestate.aol.com/blog/2011/11/07/house-of-the-day-rich-and-thin-nycs-skinniest-home/?ncid=webmail11 > > The skinniest house in New York City has already served its prior tenants > well, since it was at 75.5 Bedford St.where the great American poet Edna St. Vincent Millay wrote the poem that > won her the Pulitzer Prize. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cvoisine at nmsu.edu Tue Nov 8 12:57:05 2011 From: cvoisine at nmsu.edu (Connie Voisine) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 10:57:05 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Thin living, Millay home in NYC In-Reply-To: <8CE6C541781FBE4-C4C-1C7485@webmail-m143.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE6C541781FBE4-C4C-1C7485@webmail-m143.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: i feel acquisitive all of a sudden... On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 10:36 AM, wrote: > > http://realestate.aol.com/blog/2011/11/07/house-of-the-day-rich-and-thin-nycs-skinniest-home/?ncid=webmail11 > > The skinniest house in New York City has already served its prior tenants > well, since it was at 75.5 Bedford St. where the great American poet Edna > St. Vincent Millay wrote the poem that won her the Pulitzer Prize. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Connie Voisine Associate Professor of English New Mexico State University cvoisine at nmsu.edu 575-646-2027 From antrobin at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 13:35:12 2011 From: antrobin at gmail.com (Anthony Robinson) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 10:35:12 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <1464535.1320768619912.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <1464535.1320768619912.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Hello all, Sorry to intrude on this thread. I can't get rid of the tail and I have momentarily forgotten how to post a new topic directly to the list. In any case, I am just dropping into say hello, having recently re-joined NewPoetry after a hiatus of only about ten years. I still see the same names--Hi Gabe, Hi Hal, Hi Anny! I'd contribute something to the conversation. Or I will as soon as I feel smart enough to "say" something. This current one is over my head. Cheers, Tony On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 8:10 AM, wrote: > A couple of comments and questions, not to be taken as hostile (because > not meant to be. > > **** > > In short, I don't feel that studying these phenonema is to reduce them. > The more we can know about what and who we are, and what are fellow animals > are, the better, imo. I don't believe in productivity, but I do believe in > the possibility of thriving. > > Too, am an unregenerate appreciator of the advancements (another > problematic notion) in certain political and social institutions over the > past 350 yrs or so (I think nation states, peaceful trade and barter, and > nationalized justice systems have done, overall, a good job, in pulling us > out of vigilantism and interstate violence, with many glaring exceptions, > clearly [eg, racial bias in US prisons, which I've seen first hand as a > volunteer in 3 of them]. And I am persuaded by studies that show that > countries w greater disparity in incomes (like in the US and Portugal) have > increased crime, worse health, poorer education, and less sense of personal > well-being than countries (like socialist democracies) w more income > parity. I like Rawls but want more social parity in terms of wealth and > health, which means more social engineering, higher taxes on wealthy > people, and increased social organization -- and it's more data and careful > study that will get us there, not less. > > > The caveat is that conditions of scarcity continue to generate mass > violence, and in large parts of the world we can expect more of those as > more environments are stressed by climate change. While fewer borders means > fewer border wars, the utterly barbaric is always ready to reassert itself, > and we're not likely to see a change in the composition of those seeking > power, narcissists and sociopaths. > > > > I guess I don't think Nietzsche (or Blake or really frankly any such > valorized charismatic creators) are that useful in such a project. As an > ethical thinker, I think Nietzsche was kind of weak, except in his attack > on monotheism. I don't know, part of it is he's like an ideational rorshach > test (sp?). Too, I feel the artistic ideal of the charismatic creator is > something Bourdieu critiques accurately, as just another product of > capital. So I don't put much faith in charismatic artistic hero types, like > N or artists like Rimbaud (or Keats, boo hoo on me, I know :)). Mostly for > the reasons Bourdieu lays out in The Field of Cultural Production, I think > we treat literature, all too often, like a religion, with writers (often > male) serving as sacred heretics, whose transgressions we sacralize for > reasons we're really not even entirely sure about. > > > > Right. Sacralize bad--but learn from, if we choose, good. > > > > > And so to get back to one of the earlier parts of this discussion: yes > it's a complex world, but there are clear injustices that require clear > effort, even if it means centuries effort. One of them is stop killing our > fellow earthlings. I really believe people will look back on us in horror > and wonder what the hell we were thinking killing fellow animals in such > unprecedented numbers. > > > > As you say, a matter of belief--faith, which requires little proof. And > admirable in itself. But: > > > Poetry that helps that, great. Philosophy that helps that, great. > Meditation that helps that, great. Science, great. Literature and books > that increase the chances we can expand empathy eventually to include other > earthlings, great. Chaining ourselves to CAFO barns full of pigs, great. I > really do -- and I use the term purposefully -- think it's a holocaust. > > > Once again, where we disagree is on the nature and responsibility of art, > which after all is what brings us to this list. There's a famous talmudic > statement, "Don't make the torah your axe." Don't use it for one's > personal platform. We've seen where this too often has taken us in the past > and too often still does. I don't doubt for a second that human societies > are still capable of burning "counterproductive" art and throwing the > artists on the pyre for good measure. And there's the question of how > thisidea of helpful art jibes with art as the measure of what remains > unknown. > > > > > > **** > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 13:49:21 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 11:49:21 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I do that with the peas on my plate. The motive is not as pure. - Jim On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 9:04 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Just to show one of the extremes of empathy: the younger of Lynda's two > sons, when he was a lad, would, if he saw two stones lying on the sidewalk, > push them closer together so that they would be less lonely. > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 9:51 AM, sheila black wrote: > >> Gabriel: >> >> My goal for the day--don't laugh--is to write you a SHORT e-mail. Yes, I >> think I am busted on the sappiness (the anodyne quality as it were) of >> being a sucker for mystic, pseudo-Christ artists--I hope not all male (!) >> I was thinking when I read your e-mail--one funny thing--and really I know >> nothing about you so this may be way off--is that we sort have been >> enacting (and I hope not over and over) the aesthetic modes of thinking I >> am suspecting we inherited--me: Scots/Irish Catholic overheated sort of >> spiritual mysticism longing--and you the protestant (Lutheran?) belief in >> de-mystifying--in the more practical steps to better thriving. And this >> though my parents both left the Church and became ardent pseudo-socialist >> atheists! But I would not argue with you about the basic points you make >> for what you would like to see happen in the world--not at all--though I >> think I have less faith than you by far in the ability of groups of people >> to analyze anything altogether objectively and learn from it, and the >> phrase "social engineering" does give me shivers. I once was sort of a >> fly-on-the-wall at a kind of holocaust. When my third child was born, she >> was in the neo-natal unit at the hospital in Albuquerque for a while, and >> one of her doctors--she was in for an untreatable RH >> incompatibility--knowing she also had my condition (XLH), which is often >> classed "as a form of dwarfism" said there was this series of talks and >> dialogues going on I might be interested in. Basically, it was a meeting >> between researchers who had identified the genetic mutation for achondroplasiac >> dwarfism and representatives of achondroplasiac community. I only sat in >> on one session----it felt later as if it might have been kind of a dream; >> especially since later I tried to google the event and could never find any >> reference to it btw--but I remember it as quite a civilized dialogue. >> The researchers explaining their thinking; the members of the "little >> people" community explaining their--regret, sadness; yet the feeling in the >> room was also, though muted, terribly intense, because no one there seemed >> to have any doubt that once people could identify in utero this mutation >> they would not on the whole choose to have children with this >> condition--and so this culture, this experience, this form of being would >> vanish. And yet no one was very dramatic about it either, though it >> felt--and this was what I kept turning over later--that if one simply chose >> to pay enough, the right kind of attention, it would break your heart. >> (Have you read Kenzaboro Oe? He is good on these things I think). So who >> am I to say you are not right about the slaughter of the animals? Yet I >> also know that there are many right-to-lifers I tend to strenuously >> disagree with who feel the same about the hordes of the unborn. It is >> scary to realize, in short--which you start to get at in discussing "even >> someone as esteemed as John Rawls"-- how relative and inherently limited >> all our forms of empathy are. Perhaps this is why I balk at the >> practicality of a Peter Singer, who seeks to delimit in some sense, whereas >> I--well, I am not sure that is not the wrong way to approach the problem, >> which might finally be one of consciousness. Which brings me in a >> roundabout way to art--I am perfectly willing to admit the >> pseudo-christness of Nietzche, but I do really love Keats--partly simply, >> purely, for the astounding life of his language, the spark of his line ( I >> believe---and this I am sure is sentimental, but also true in my >> experience--that when people tell really big lies, like governmental lies, >> fascist lies, you can almost always see it in their syntax), but partly >> because he said "Truth is beauty, beauty is truth," and he meant, I think, >> to point at how art might a bedfellow or traveling pompanion of ethical >> thought, but its purpose was really other, not to have a purpose but to be >> a kind of space where consciousness can be 1) scrupulously exploratory and >> truthful about what it is; 2) time can be, in a sense, collapsed (the >> function of the lyric)--the place where everything happens at once, and >> thus eternity and the moment or the joyfulness of present being. Okay >> sappy, but (Keats again) "A thing of beauty is a joy forever." However, I >> don't disagree with you about the idea that phenomena of mind can be >> studied, nor that this should not be in some degree a purpose of art. I >> think the rub comes in around that notion of beauty/truth--too often >> ethical purposes mean we don't or don't dare or forget how to tell the >> whole story. A few years ago I had a sort of moral crisis--I did not >> believe in even the potential goodness of most people any more--and the >> book that consoled me the most was Primo Levi's *Survival in Auschwitz *(which >> sounds I know like the punch line to some awful joke) precisely because he >> was so straightforward, he was so scrupulous about analyzing what he saw >> and taking no prisoners in terms of asserting that the cruelty, the madness >> of the camps was a fundamentally human phenomenon--not unique to the >> Germans, not unique to one type or group of person; that he could do this >> awed me, really, and also provided deep philosophical consolation, so, yes, >> I can see completely: "The more we can know about what and who we are, and >> what are fellow animals are, the better..." >> >> Okay, not so short, but not so long either (!) And thanks for this >> conversation--it has made me think, which is always a joy, if NOT >> forever.... >> >> Sheila >> >> P.S. I agree about Bataille; I was trying to think of books I found >> repellent but ALSO valuable, but here's a better recommendation for you: >> Juliana Spahr's the Transformation--it covers much >> of what you seem to want to talk about. And ecology. But whatever you >> put in, I think it will be a wonderful class for these general writing >> students...really! >> >> ------------------------------ >> Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 06:36:16 -0600 >> >> From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com >> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >> >> Sheila, >> >> Well, am happy to "teach" the book (presumptuous verb notwithstanding). >> Most likely I'll just read it with students. :) Really looking forward to >> it -- and, part of me wants to say, am especially looking forward to the >> essays. >> >> Regarding the quoted Harris passage: to be fair, it's a formulary, or a >> "sketch," as he puts it. It is sappy (though your word "anodyne" is nicer) >> to speak about "love" in that way, but he's suggesting that it's not >> something we can't acquire data about. I know it's not cool to suggest that >> we can acquire data about certain kinds of phenomena, especially social, >> emotional or cognitive ones, but I've gained increased respect for such >> efforts over the past few years, especially around the study of "positive" >> mindstates (there's another problematic term). >> >> In short, I don't feel that studying these phenonema is to reduce them. >> The more we can know about what and who we are, and what are fellow animals >> are, the better, imo. I don't believe in productivity, but I do believe in >> the possibility of thriving. >> >> Too, am an unregenerate appreciator of the advancements (another >> problematic notion) in certain political and social institutions over the >> past 350 yrs or so (I think nation states, peaceful trade and barter, and >> nationalized justice systems have done, overall, a good job, in pulling us >> out of vigilantism and interstate violence, with many glaring exceptions, >> clearly [eg, racial bias in US prisons, which I've seen first hand as a >> volunteer in 3 of them]. And I am persuaded by studies that show that >> countries w greater disparity in incomes (like in the US and Portugal) have >> increased crime, worse health, poorer education, and less sense of personal >> well-being than countries (like socialist democracies) w more income >> parity. I like Rawls but want more social parity in terms of wealth and >> health, which means more social engineering, higher taxes on wealthy >> people, and increased social organization -- and it's more data and careful >> study that will get us there, not less. >> >> This is something I do think about a lot -- and led me to write that >> cranky essay that (kind of) partially led to this conversation: "it strikes >> me that one thing you might consider is the role of power and desire in >> creating *and *preventing types of empathy. I don't know about you, but >> I think most art is in some sense about power and desire, or power or >> desire." I think this is brilliant and I do agree w you and am taken w >> Deleuze's attack on some kinds of literature as mere fantasy and pathology >> (he goes there) in that some of it *prevents* a vitalizing of the >> collective. >> >> I guess I don't think Nietzsche (or Blake or really frankly any such >> valorized charismatic creators) are that useful in such a project. As an >> ethical thinker, I think Nietzsche was kind of weak, except in his attack >> on monotheism. I don't know, part of it is he's like an ideational rorshach >> test (sp?). Too, I feel the artistic ideal of the charismatic creator is >> something Bourdieu critiques accurately, as just another product of >> capital. So I don't put much faith in charismatic artistic hero types, like >> N or artists like Rimbaud (or Keats, boo hoo on me, I know :)). Mostly for >> the reasons Bourdieu lays out in The Field of Cultural Production, I think >> we treat literature, all too often, like a religion, with writers (often >> male) serving as sacred heretics, whose transgressions we sacralize for >> reasons we're really not even entirely sure about. >> >> Now I'm probably raining on everyone's parade, sorry. :) >> >> And so to get back to one of the earlier parts of this discussion: yes >> it's a complex world, but there are clear injustices that require clear >> effort, even if it means centuries effort. One of them is stop killing our >> fellow earthlings. I really believe people will look back on us in horror >> and wonder what the hell we were thinking killing fellow animals in such >> unprecedented numbers. Poetry that helps that, great. Philosophy that helps >> that, great. Meditation that helps that, great. Science, great. Literature >> and books that increase the chances we can expand empathy eventually to >> include other earthlings, great. Chaining ourselves to CAFO barns full of >> pigs, great. I really do -- and I use the term purposefully -- think it's a >> holocaust. >> >> "one big gift or power of disability is the way in which at root >> we--embody--hah!--the threat or presence of the non-productive body." Yes, >> and I can't help but think of non-human animals when I read this. We can't >> conceive of many kinds of animals as "non-productive." We can't conceive of >> a chicken or a pig or a cow as something that isn't FOR us. It is sometimes >> extremely difficult for me to conceive of even listening to anyone's >> discourse about social justice -- even someone as esteemed as John Rawls or >> Audre Lorde -- without wondering how unjust they might be toward the >> prospect of a "non-productive" pig self or chicken self or cow self. Can >> they accord such a radically non-productive self the empathy necessary not >> to make it "productive" by pretending not to partake in its murder while >> eating it? If we are to talk about respecting non-productive bodies, I'd >> like to broach the notion of the respect and sovereignty of those who may >> be differently abled and differently bodied -- but without a voice -- or >> even without a mode of being or set of percepts -- that we understand. >> >> I'm not sure how I feel about notions of transcendence. All I know is we >> tend to respect a transcendence that points to something "out there" that >> we think we don't understand. But when that transcendent gap is pointing to >> the "other" of a pig or a cow or a thing we presume to understand but truly >> cannot, we dismiss that as a valuable gap to honor -- and we trample across >> it and kill. In the face of that failure of compassion, too much >> transcendence, for me, is mere spiritual self-congratulation. >> >> I really appreciate the link to Foucault's preface of D&G's Anti-Oedipus. >> I will read it, count on it. Don't know if I'll read Bataille, though, as >> for some reason I have this weird antipathy toward him. Not even sure why. >> (I do NOT recommend _Babyfucker_, btw). I mean, it's basically a re-write >> of Beckett's _Molloy_ but the guy penetrates babies instead of writes. It's >> gruesome and I wdn't read it again myself if it weren't something I could >> discuss with others. >> >> And I have to say that I *do* like that notion of Rimbaud's you mention: >> that a poet's job is to measure the amount of unknown left in the world. >> Mostly because it seems to enroll the poet as a collector, maker, measurer >> of the remaining unknowns, as it implies a skeptical inquiry, a measuring, >> even if it's of the known unknowns (thank you, Donald Rumsfeld). >> >> Well, now, that's seriously got to be the longest email of the lot. Poor >> you. :) >> >> Ha!, >> Gabe >> >> On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 9:03 PM, sheila black wrote: >> >> Gabriel: >> >> First, it is so nice of you to decide to teach my--our book. I hope you >> will find it--oh, irony intended, salutary in a dismal mind sort of way, >> but seriously (sincerely?) thanks; it >> is really awfully kind of you. Maybe I shall look at Mr. Harris, but I >> warn you, I am a little afraid of programs of improvability no matter how >> intelligently or moderately put >> forth; For instance, I find myself really disagreeing with the following >> statement by H in the *End of Faith*: >> >> ...we soon discover that 'love' is largely a matter of wishing that >> others experience happiness rather than suffering, and most of us come to >> feel that love is more conducive to happiness, both our own and that of >> others, than hate. There is a circle here, that links us to one another: >> we each want to be happy; the social feeling of love is one of our greatest >> sources of happiness, and love entails that we be concerned for the >> happiness of others... >> >> It seems to me this is certainly part of the story, but also like a >> child's story of love; I would much rather such a world perhaps--or in some >> ways-- but in such a world, I fear I--and I am trying to employ "I" here in >> sort of a universal way--would be very much like Emily Bronte's Cathy, >> begging the angels to toss her out of heaven so she could return to the >> moors--I would not, I mean, be able to imagine myself so denatured when I >> have found myself generally much crueler, more partial, urgent in all my >> forms of love; I agree it is possible to study ways of "being other" or >> "becoming other," but I would not want to reduce to anodyne all the forms >> of love (however hard and mortifying at times I may have found them) for >> fear of reducing what love might show--namely the ways in which such >> difficulty--to "love" or even simply "empathize" entirely with another-- >> represents the most pointed challenge or radical assault on the self--and, >> as such, to borrow your terminology, perhaps the most compelling way by >> which the self might stretch or thrive--embrace a larger circle of >> "others." >> >> Maybe where we disagree is the emphasis we place on the transcendental; I >> think you see it as fantasy and, as such, a barrier to what might be a more >> "productive" exercise of faculties to create a more ethical, loving, social >> world. I think I have less faith than you in the exercise of any power but >> the transcendental to cope with what I see as our essentially tragic >> structure as individual/social beings. Not to sound hopeless, maybe it is >> just that 1) I think I am really v. 19th century in my imagination (I LOVE >> Keats!); and 2) like Mark I believe in the realm of the possible--one might >> struggle quite hard to see just a small measure of improvement or simply to >> re-vivify what is beautiful--and it is still worthwhile to do that. But >> any suggestion that--which these Pinkertons and Harrises seem to make--we >> might find a kind of means of radical improvement through some sensible >> practice or study--that I don't quite really believe; indeed, I tend to see >> it as part of the whole realm of "productive" discourse I find >> problematic--and, yes, perhaps this is a legacy of being within a "flawed" >> body or a "disabled body" (though to be quite honest, I have never actually >> found this "disabling" in any real way; rather for me, it has been a sort >> of difficult privilege or gift), but I find the whole discourse of >> "disability" and "ability" (often focused and enacted "upon" the disabled >> individual) points up the problem of how much all of our habits of >> thinking have been colonized by economic (capitalist even) ideas of >> production; I often think one big gift or power of disability is the way in >> which at root we--embody--hah!--the threat or presence of the >> non-productive body. (Or would I simply prefer a heaven more >> disorderly?). H\Yet there should, shouldn't there, be other ways of >> structuring ourselves--this is really a Neiztchian (god, I really can't >> spell at this time of day) idea--well, I never know what Neitzche's ideas >> quite add up to (don't think I am entirely smart enough), but he is such a >> fertile, extraordinary mind, hard not to derive notions from him!--and this >> is one: that we must expand our realm of knowing and feeling out of cause >> and effect, out of the discourse of trade or barter, out of discourses of >> production--or maybe simply that if we *could* do so we would have more >> access to the infinite--or to the sensations of the infinite (which, yes, I >> suppose, too, we associate with love). >> >> Well, I could go on--as I have been for e-mail after e-mail (how could I >> mind in the slightest yours being so long when mine are even longer?) but >> it strikes me that one thing you might consider is the role of power and >> desire in creating *and *preventing types of empathy. I don't know about >> you, but I think most art is in some sense about power and desire, or power >> or desire. I love that you love Deleuze. Not to jump in with lots of >> suggestions for your class--which sounds pretty great--I do like that odd >> phrase "literature as a technology of empathy," but Delueze and Guattari's >> *Anti-Oedipus* might be a text worth considering because of how it >> posits society as a series of productions of desire and the role of the >> family within that (not positive in their book)--and the way * >> Anti-Oedipus* seeks collective structures--and the kind of more loving >> society you seem to be talking about, but figures these within an arena of >> how power flows or doesn't. Hmmm haven't actually read the book in many >> years so that may be a terribly simplistic exegis. But I also remember >> Foucault wrote the introduction and it was kind of this terrific rant about >> power and liberation and not being sad even as you fought against--what did >> you call it, ah, yes: *ethical harm done by deontological ethics and >> faith-based religions. *Here's a link to it: >> http://richardpayton.pbworks.com/w/page/12580685/Preface%20to%20Anti-Oedipus(though I'm guessing you've probably read it before...). Don't know what >> babyfucker is but one novel I was compelled by (though kind of vile) about >> love and transgression is George Bataille's *Blue of Noon *which he >> wrote as a kind of response to Emily Bronte (Oh, that 19th century >> again--maybe I love them so much because so much of their literature was >> created in the condition of the dismal, the burning, the mortally ill mind, >> the "present" of sickness which colors so much of their experience and >> thought and reaches such surprising ends....). But, well, it seems worth >> considering: empathy as a product of struggle or emerging from a confluence >> of powers. Maybe why I LOVE combat baby--there is a very funny/odd French >> film--sort of feels like a Dogma film about a downtrodden factory family; >> you expect this sort of kitchen sink realism, and then in the middle they >> have this baby, and the baby grow wings and becomes this kind of >> unstoppable, terrible, amazing force. Ah, well, on defying >> judgement--lovely remark--after all this disagreement maybe you, me, >> Catherine and John can agree on that idea of the new. And I can also >> perhaps affirm that fifty is not really so far from forty-five, just that >> the death thing feels even a little closer, which is sometimes terrifying; >> others oddly vivifying. >> >> Thanks again--and for your patience with these (v. long!) e-mails. >> >> Best, >> >> Sheila >> >> P.S. Rimbaud--okay, I should shut up about Rimbaud, had this lovely idea >> of genius as collective or a collective resource....and also that it was >> job of the poet >> to measure the amount of unknown left in the world... >> >> >> _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu Tue Nov 8 13:58:09 2011 From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 12:58:09 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas Message-ID: <100e01cc9e48$5c173340$144599c0$@ilstu.edu> My former mother-in-law used to intone, to the delight of my 4-year old: I eat my peas with honey. I?ve done it all my life. It makes the peas taste funny, But it keeps them on my knife. Bill Morgan From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of James Cervantes Sent: Tuesday, November 08, 2011 12:49 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption I do that with the peas on my plate. The motive is not as pure. - Jim On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 9:04 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: Just to show one of the extremes of empathy: the younger of Lynda's two sons, when he was a lad, would, if he saw two stones lying on the sidewalk, push them closer together so that they would be less lonely. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) , Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems, Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole ; Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; The Sonnet Project ; G(e)nome ; Winter Journey ; Eclipse ; The Dance of the Red Swan ; Transparencies & Projections On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 9:51 AM, sheila black wrote: Gabriel: My goal for the day--don't laugh--is to write you a SHORT e-mail. Yes, I think I am busted on the sappiness (the anodyne quality as it were) of being a sucker for mystic, pseudo-Christ artists--I hope not all male (!) I was thinking when I read your e-mail--one funny thing--and really I know nothing about you so this may be way off--is that we sort have been enacting (and I hope not over and over) the aesthetic modes of thinking I am suspecting we inherited--me: Scots/Irish Catholic overheated sort of spiritual mysticism longing--and you the protestant (Lutheran?) belief in de-mystifying--in the more practical steps to better thriving. And this though my parents both left the Church and became ardent pseudo-socialist atheists! But I would not argue with you about the basic points you make for what you would like to see happen in the world--not at all--though I think I have less faith than you by far in the ability of groups of people to analyze anything altogether objectively and learn from it, and the phrase "social engineering" does give me shivers. I once was sort of a fly-on-the-wall at a kind of holocaust. When my third child was born, she was in the neo-natal unit at the hospital in Albuquerque for a while, and one of her doctors--she was in for an untreatable RH incompatibility--knowing she also had my condition (XLH), which is often classed "as a form of dwarfism" said there was this series of talks and dialogues going on I might be interested in. Basically, it was a meeting between researchers who had identified the genetic mutation for achondroplasiac dwarfism and representatives of achondroplasiac community. I only sat in on one session----it felt later as if it might have been kind of a dream; especially since later I tried to google the event and could never find any reference to it btw--but I remember it as quite a civilized dialogue. The researchers explaining their thinking; the members of the "little people" community explaining their--regret, sadness; yet the feeling in the room was also, though muted, terribly intense, because no one there seemed to have any doubt that once people could identify in utero this mutation they would not on the whole choose to have children with this condition--and so this culture, this experience, this form of being would vanish. And yet no one was very dramatic about it either, though it felt--and this was what I kept turning over later--that if one simply chose to pay enough, the right kind of attention, it would break your heart. (Have you read Kenzaboro Oe? He is good on these things I think). So who am I to say you are not right about the slaughter of the animals? Yet I also know that there are many right-to-lifers I tend to strenuously disagree with who feel the same about the hordes of the unborn. It is scary to realize, in short--which you start to get at in discussing "even someone as esteemed as John Rawls"-- how relative and inherently limited all our forms of empathy are. Perhaps this is why I balk at the practicality of a Peter Singer, who seeks to delimit in some sense, whereas I--well, I am not sure that is not the wrong way to approach the problem, which might finally be one of consciousness. Which brings me in a roundabout way to art--I am perfectly willing to admit the pseudo-christness of Nietzche, but I do really love Keats--partly simply, purely, for the astounding life of his language, the spark of his line ( I believe---and this I am sure is sentimental, but also true in my experience--that when people tell really big lies, like governmental lies, fascist lies, you can almost always see it in their syntax), but partly because he said "Truth is beauty, beauty is truth," and he meant, I think, to point at how art might a bedfellow or traveling pompanion of ethical thought, but its purpose was really other, not to have a purpose but to be a kind of space where consciousness can be 1) scrupulously exploratory and truthful about what it is; 2) time can be, in a sense, collapsed (the function of the lyric)--the place where everything happens at once, and thus eternity and the moment or the joyfulness of present being. Okay sappy, but (Keats again) "A thing of beauty is a joy forever." However, I don't disagree with you about the idea that phenomena of mind can be studied, nor that this should not be in some degree a purpose of art. I think the rub comes in around that notion of beauty/truth--too often ethical purposes mean we don't or don't dare or forget how to tell the whole story. A few years ago I had a sort of moral crisis--I did not believe in even the potential goodness of most people any more--and the book that consoled me the most was Primo Levi's Survival in Auschwitz (which sounds I know like the punch line to some awful joke) precisely because he was so straightforward, he was so scrupulous about analyzing what he saw and taking no prisoners in terms of asserting that the cruelty, the madness of the camps was a fundamentally human phenomenon--not unique to the Germans, not unique to one type or group of person; that he could do this awed me, really, and also provided deep philosophical consolation, so, yes, I can see completely: "The more we can know about what and who we are, and what are fellow animals are, the better..." Okay, not so short, but not so long either (!) And thanks for this conversation--it has made me think, which is always a joy, if NOT forever.... Sheila P.S. I agree about Bataille; I was trying to think of books I found repellent but ALSO valuable, but here's a better recommendation for you: Juliana Spahr's the Transformation--it covers much of what you seem to want to talk about. And ecology. But whatever you put in, I think it will be a wonderful class for these general writing students...really! _____ Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 06:36:16 -0600 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Sheila, Well, am happy to "teach" the book (presumptuous verb notwithstanding). Most likely I'll just read it with students. :) Really looking forward to it -- and, part of me wants to say, am especially looking forward to the essays. Regarding the quoted Harris passage: to be fair, it's a formulary, or a "sketch," as he puts it. It is sappy (though your word "anodyne" is nicer) to speak about "love" in that way, but he's suggesting that it's not something we can't acquire data about. I know it's not cool to suggest that we can acquire data about certain kinds of phenomena, especially social, emotional or cognitive ones, but I've gained increased respect for such efforts over the past few years, especially around the study of "positive" mindstates (there's another problematic term). In short, I don't feel that studying these phenonema is to reduce them. The more we can know about what and who we are, and what are fellow animals are, the better, imo. I don't believe in productivity, but I do believe in the possibility of thriving. Too, am an unregenerate appreciator of the advancements (another problematic notion) in certain political and social institutions over the past 350 yrs or so (I think nation states, peaceful trade and barter, and nationalized justice systems have done, overall, a good job, in pulling us out of vigilantism and interstate violence, with many glaring exceptions, clearly [eg, racial bias in US prisons, which I've seen first hand as a volunteer in 3 of them]. And I am persuaded by studies that show that countries w greater disparity in incomes (like in the US and Portugal) have increased crime, worse health, poorer education, and less sense of personal well-being than countries (like socialist democracies) w more income parity. I like Rawls but want more social parity in terms of wealth and health, which means more social engineering, higher taxes on wealthy people, and increased social organization -- and it's more data and careful study that will get us there, not less. This is something I do think about a lot -- and led me to write that cranky essay that (kind of) partially led to this conversation: "it strikes me that one thing you might consider is the role of power and desire in creating and preventing types of empathy. I don't know about you, but I think most art is in some sense about power and desire, or power or desire." I think this is brilliant and I do agree w you and am taken w Deleuze's attack on some kinds of literature as mere fantasy and pathology (he goes there) in that some of it prevents a vitalizing of the collective. I guess I don't think Nietzsche (or Blake or really frankly any such valorized charismatic creators) are that useful in such a project. As an ethical thinker, I think Nietzsche was kind of weak, except in his attack on monotheism. I don't know, part of it is he's like an ideational rorshach test (sp?). Too, I feel the artistic ideal of the charismatic creator is something Bourdieu critiques accurately, as just another product of capital. So I don't put much faith in charismatic artistic hero types, like N or artists like Rimbaud (or Keats, boo hoo on me, I know :)). Mostly for the reasons Bourdieu lays out in The Field of Cultural Production, I think we treat literature, all too often, like a religion, with writers (often male) serving as sacred heretics, whose transgressions we sacralize for reasons we're really not even entirely sure about. Now I'm probably raining on everyone's parade, sorry. :) And so to get back to one of the earlier parts of this discussion: yes it's a complex world, but there are clear injustices that require clear effort, even if it means centuries effort. One of them is stop killing our fellow earthlings. I really believe people will look back on us in horror and wonder what the hell we were thinking killing fellow animals in such unprecedented numbers. Poetry that helps that, great. Philosophy that helps that, great. Meditation that helps that, great. Science, great. Literature and books that increase the chances we can expand empathy eventually to include other earthlings, great. Chaining ourselves to CAFO barns full of pigs, great. I really do -- and I use the term purposefully -- think it's a holocaust. "one big gift or power of disability is the way in which at root we--embody--hah!--the threat or presence of the non-productive body." Yes, and I can't help but think of non-human animals when I read this. We can't conceive of many kinds of animals as "non-productive." We can't conceive of a chicken or a pig or a cow as something that isn't FOR us. It is sometimes extremely difficult for me to conceive of even listening to anyone's discourse about social justice -- even someone as esteemed as John Rawls or Audre Lorde -- without wondering how unjust they might be toward the prospect of a "non-productive" pig self or chicken self or cow self. Can they accord such a radically non-productive self the empathy necessary not to make it "productive" by pretending not to partake in its murder while eating it? If we are to talk about respecting non-productive bodies, I'd like to broach the notion of the respect and sovereignty of those who may be differently abled and differently bodied -- but without a voice -- or even without a mode of being or set of percepts -- that we understand. I'm not sure how I feel about notions of transcendence. All I know is we tend to respect a transcendence that points to something "out there" that we think we don't understand. But when that transcendent gap is pointing to the "other" of a pig or a cow or a thing we presume to understand but truly cannot, we dismiss that as a valuable gap to honor -- and we trample across it and kill. In the face of that failure of compassion, too much transcendence, for me, is mere spiritual self-congratulation. I really appreciate the link to Foucault's preface of D&G's Anti-Oedipus. I will read it, count on it. Don't know if I'll read Bataille, though, as for some reason I have this weird antipathy toward him. Not even sure why. (I do NOT recommend _Babyfucker_, btw). I mean, it's basically a re-write of Beckett's _Molloy_ but the guy penetrates babies instead of writes. It's gruesome and I wdn't read it again myself if it weren't something I could discuss with others. And I have to say that I *do* like that notion of Rimbaud's you mention: that a poet's job is to measure the amount of unknown left in the world. Mostly because it seems to enroll the poet as a collector, maker, measurer of the remaining unknowns, as it implies a skeptical inquiry, a measuring, even if it's of the known unknowns (thank you, Donald Rumsfeld). Well, now, that's seriously got to be the longest email of the lot. Poor you. :) Ha!, Gabe On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 9:03 PM, sheila black wrote: Gabriel: First, it is so nice of you to decide to teach my--our book. I hope you will find it--oh, irony intended, salutary in a dismal mind sort of way, but seriously (sincerely?) thanks; it is really awfully kind of you. Maybe I shall look at Mr. Harris, but I warn you, I am a little afraid of programs of improvability no matter how intelligently or moderately put forth; For instance, I find myself really disagreeing with the following statement by H in the End of Faith: ...we soon discover that 'love' is largely a matter of wishing that others experience happiness rather than suffering, and most of us come to feel that love is more conducive to happiness, both our own and that of others, than hate. There is a circle here, that links us to one another: we each want to be happy; the social feeling of love is one of our greatest sources of happiness, and love entails that we be concerned for the happiness of others... It seems to me this is certainly part of the story, but also like a child's story of love; I would much rather such a world perhaps--or in some ways-- but in such a world, I fear I--and I am trying to employ "I" here in sort of a universal way--would be very much like Emily Bronte's Cathy, begging the angels to toss her out of heaven so she could return to the moors--I would not, I mean, be able to imagine myself so denatured when I have found myself generally much crueler, more partial, urgent in all my forms of love; I agree it is possible to study ways of "being other" or "becoming other," but I would not want to reduce to anodyne all the forms of love (however hard and mortifying at times I may have found them) for fear of reducing what love might show--namely the ways in which such difficulty--to "love" or even simply "empathize" entirely with another-- represents the most pointed challenge or radical assault on the self--and, as such, to borrow your terminology, perhaps the most compelling way by which the self might stretch or thrive--embrace a larger circle of "others." Maybe where we disagree is the emphasis we place on the transcendental; I think you see it as fantasy and, as such, a barrier to what might be a more "productive" exercise of faculties to create a more ethical, loving, social world. I think I have less faith than you in the exercise of any power but the transcendental to cope with what I see as our essentially tragic structure as individual/social beings. Not to sound hopeless, maybe it is just that 1) I think I am really v. 19th century in my imagination (I LOVE Keats!); and 2) like Mark I believe in the realm of the possible--one might struggle quite hard to see just a small measure of improvement or simply to re-vivify what is beautiful--and it is still worthwhile to do that. But any suggestion that--which these Pinkertons and Harrises seem to make--we might find a kind of means of radical improvement through some sensible practice or study--that I don't quite really believe; indeed, I tend to see it as part of the whole realm of "productive" discourse I find problematic--and, yes, perhaps this is a legacy of being within a "flawed" body or a "disabled body" (though to be quite honest, I have never actually found this "disabling" in any real way; rather for me, it has been a sort of difficult privilege or gift), but I find the whole discourse of "disability" and "ability" (often focused and enacted "upon" the disabled individual) points up the problem of how much all of our habits of thinking have been colonized by economic (capitalist even) ideas of production; I often think one big gift or power of disability is the way in which at root we--embody--hah!--the threat or presence of the non-productive body. (Or would I simply prefer a heaven more disorderly?). H\Yet there should, shouldn't there, be other ways of structuring ourselves--this is really a Neiztchian (god, I really can't spell at this time of day) idea--well, I never know what Neitzche's ideas quite add up to (don't think I am entirely smart enough), but he is such a fertile, extraordinary mind, hard not to derive notions from him!--and this is one: that we must expand our realm of knowing and feeling out of cause and effect, out of the discourse of trade or barter, out of discourses of production--or maybe simply that if we could do so we would have more access to the infinite--or to the sensations of the infinite (which, yes, I suppose, too, we associate with love). Well, I could go on--as I have been for e-mail after e-mail (how could I mind in the slightest yours being so long when mine are even longer?) but it strikes me that one thing you might consider is the role of power and desire in creating and preventing types of empathy. I don't know about you, but I think most art is in some sense about power and desire, or power or desire. I love that you love Deleuze. Not to jump in with lots of suggestions for your class--which sounds pretty great--I do like that odd phrase "literature as a technology of empathy," but Delueze and Guattari's Anti-Oedipus might be a text worth considering because of how it posits society as a series of productions of desire and the role of the family within that (not positive in their book)--and the way Anti-Oedipus seeks collective structures--and the kind of more loving society you seem to be talking about, but figures these within an arena of how power flows or doesn't. Hmmm haven't actually read the book in many years so that may be a terribly simplistic exegis. But I also remember Foucault wrote the introduction and it was kind of this terrific rant about power and liberation and not being sad even as you fought against--what did you call it, ah, yes: ethical harm done by deontological ethics and faith-based religions. Here's a link to it: http://richardpayton.pbworks.com/w/page/12580685/Preface%20to%20Anti-Oedipus (though I'm guessing you've probably read it before...). Don't know what babyfucker is but one novel I was compelled by (though kind of vile) about love and transgression is George Bataille's Blue of Noon which he wrote as a kind of response to Emily Bronte (Oh, that 19th century again--maybe I love them so much because so much of their literature was created in the condition of the dismal, the burning, the mortally ill mind, the "present" of sickness which colors so much of their experience and thought and reaches such surprising ends....). But, well, it seems worth considering: empathy as a product of struggle or emerging from a confluence of powers. Maybe why I LOVE combat baby--there is a very funny/odd French film--sort of feels like a Dogma film about a downtrodden factory family; you expect this sort of kitchen sink realism, and then in the middle they have this baby, and the baby grow wings and becomes this kind of unstoppable, terrible, amazing force. Ah, well, on defying judgement--lovely remark--after all this disagreement maybe you, me, Catherine and John can agree on that idea of the new. And I can also perhaps affirm that fifty is not really so far from forty-five, just that the death thing feels even a little closer, which is sometimes terrifying; others oddly vivifying. Thanks again--and for your patience with these (v. long!) e-mails. Best, Sheila P.S. Rimbaud--okay, I should shut up about Rimbaud, had this lovely idea of genius as collective or a collective resource....and also that it was job of the poet to measure the amount of unknown left in the world... _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Tue Nov 8 14:00:58 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 11:00:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1320778858.77034.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> That's a great line, Jim. ?I may steal it for a poem. >________________________________ >From: James Cervantes >To: NewPoetry List >Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2011 1:49 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > >I do that with the peas on my plate. ?The motive is not as pure. > > >- Jim > > >On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 9:04 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > >Just to show one of the extremes of empathy: the younger of Lynda's two sons, when he was a lad, would, if he saw two stones lying on the sidewalk, push them closer together so that they would be less lonely.? >> >>?? ? >> >> >>Serving the tri-state area. >> >> >>Hal >>Halvard Johnson >>================ >> >>halvard at gmail.com >>http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >>http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ >>http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ >>http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ >>http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >> >> >> >>Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; >>Transparencies & Projections >> >> >> >> >> >> >>On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 9:51 AM, sheila black wrote: >> >>Gabriel: >>> >>>My goal for the day--don't laugh--is to write you a SHORT e-mail.? Yes, I think I am busted on the sappiness (the anodyne quality as it were) of being a sucker for mystic, pseudo-Christ artists--I hope not all male (!)? I was thinking when I read your e-mail--one funny thing--and really I know nothing about you so this may be way off--is that we sort have been enacting (and I hope not over and over) the aesthetic modes of thinking I am suspecting we inherited--me: Scots/Irish Catholic overheated sort of spiritual mysticism longing--and you the protestant (Lutheran?) belief in de-mystifying--in the more practical steps to better thriving.? And this though my parents both left the Church and became ardent pseudo-socialist atheists!? But I would not argue with you about the basic points you make for what you would like to see happen in the world--not at all--though I think I have less faith than you by far in the ability of groups of people to analyze anything altogether objectively and learn from it, and the phrase "social engineering" does give me shivers.? I once was sort of a fly-on-the-wall at a kind of holocaust.? When my third child was born, she was in the neo-natal unit at the hospital in Albuquerque for a while, and one of her doctors--she was in for an untreatable RH incompatibility--knowing she also had my condition (XLH), which is often classed "as a form of dwarfism" said there was this series of talks and dialogues going on I might be interested in. Basically, it was a meeting between researchers who had identified the genetic mutation for achondroplasiac dwarfism and representatives of achondroplasiac community.? I only sat in on one session----it felt later as if it might have been kind of a dream; especially since later I tried to google the event and could never find any reference to it btw--but I remember it as quite a civilized dialogue.? The researchers explaining their thinking; the members of the "little people" community explaining their--regret, sadness; yet the feeling in the room was also, though muted, terribly intense, because no one there seemed to have any doubt that once people could identify in? utero this mutation they would not on the whole choose to have children with this condition--and so this culture, this experience, this form of being would vanish. And yet no one was very dramatic about it either, though it felt--and this was what I kept turning over later--that if one simply chose to pay enough, the right kind of attention, it would break your heart. (Have you read Kenzaboro Oe?? He is good on these things I think).? So who am I to say you are not right about the slaughter of the animals?? Yet I also know that there are many right-to-lifers I tend to strenuously disagree with who feel the same about the hordes of the unborn.? It is scary to realize, in short--which you start to get at in discussing "even someone as esteemed as John Rawls"-- how relative and inherently limited all our forms of empathy are.? Perhaps this is why I balk at the practicality of a Peter Singer, who seeks to delimit in some sense, whereas I--well, I am not sure that is not the wrong way to approach the problem, which might finally be one of consciousness. Which brings me in a roundabout way to art--I am perfectly willing to admit the pseudo-christness of Nietzche, but I do really love Keats--partly simply, purely, for the astounding life of his language, the spark of his line ( I believe---and this I am sure is sentimental, but also true in my experience--that when people tell really big lies, like governmental lies, fascist lies, you can almost always see it in their syntax), but partly because he said "Truth is beauty, beauty is truth," and he meant, I think, to point at how art might a bedfellow or traveling pompanion of ethical thought, but its purpose was really other, not to have a purpose but to be a kind of space where consciousness can be 1) scrupulously exploratory and truthful about what it is; 2) time can be, in? a sense, collapsed (the function of the lyric)--the place where everything happens at once, and thus eternity and the moment or the joyfulness of present being.? Okay sappy, but (Keats again)? "A thing of beauty is a joy forever."? However, I don't disagree with you about the idea that phenomena of mind can be studied, nor that this should not be in some degree a purpose of art.? I think the rub comes in around that notion of beauty/truth--too often ethical purposes mean we don't or don't dare or forget how to tell the whole story.? A few years ago I had a sort of moral crisis--I did not believe in even the potential goodness of most people any more--and the book that consoled me the most was Primo Levi's Survival in Auschwitz? (which sounds I know like the punch line to some awful joke) precisely because he was so straightforward, he was so scrupulous about analyzing what he saw and taking no prisoners in terms of asserting that the cruelty, the madness of the camps was a fundamentally human phenomenon--not unique to the Germans, not unique to one type or group of person; that he could do this awed me, really, and also provided deep philosophical consolation, so, yes, I can see completely:? "The more we can know about what and who we are, and what are fellow animals are, the better..." >>> >>>Okay, not so short, but not so long either (!)? And thanks for this conversation--it has made me think, which is always a joy, if NOT forever.... >>> >>>Sheila >>> >>>P.S.? I agree about Bataille; I was trying to think of books I found repellent but ALSO valuable, but here's a better recommendation for you: Juliana Spahr's the Transformation--it covers much >>>of what you seem to want to talk about. And ecology.? But whatever you put in, I think it will be a wonderful class for these general writing students...really! >>> >>> >>> >>>________________________________ >>>Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 06:36:16 -0600 >>> >>>From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com >>>To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption >>> >>> >>>Sheila, >>> >>> >>>Well, am happy to "teach" the book (presumptuous verb notwithstanding). ?Most likely I'll just read it with students. :) Really looking forward to it -- and, part of me wants to say, am especially looking forward to the essays. >>> >>> >>>Regarding the quoted Harris passage: to be fair, it's a formulary, or a "sketch," as he puts it. It is sappy (though your word "anodyne" is nicer) to speak about "love" in that way, but he's suggesting that it's not something we can't acquire data about. I know it's not cool to suggest that we can acquire data about certain kinds of phenomena, especially social, emotional or cognitive ones, but I've gained increased respect for such efforts over the past few years, especially around the study of "positive" mindstates (there's another problematic term). >>> >>>In short, I don't feel that studying these phenonema is to reduce them. The more we can know about what and who we are, and what are fellow animals are, the better, imo. I don't believe in productivity, but I do believe in the possibility of thriving. >>> >>> >>>Too, am an unregenerate appreciator of the advancements (another problematic notion) in certain political and social institutions over the past 350 yrs or so (I think nation states, peaceful trade and barter, and nationalized justice systems have done, overall, a good job, in pulling us out of vigilantism and interstate violence, with many glaring exceptions, clearly [eg, racial bias in US prisons, which I've seen first hand as a volunteer in 3 of them].??And I am persuaded by studies that show that countries w greater disparity in incomes (like in the US and Portugal) have increased crime, worse health, poorer education, and less sense of personal well-being than countries (like socialist democracies) w more income parity.?I like Rawls but want more social parity in terms of wealth and health, which means more social engineering, higher taxes on wealthy people, and increased social organization -- and it's more data and careful study that will get us there, not less. >>> >>> >>>This is something I do think about a lot -- and led me to write that cranky essay that (kind of) partially led to this conversation: "it strikes me that one thing you might consider is the role of power and desire in creating?and?preventing types of empathy. I don't know about you, but I think most art is in some sense about power and desire, or power or desire." I think this is brilliant and I do agree w you and am taken w Deleuze's attack on some kinds of literature as mere fantasy and pathology (he goes there) in that some of it?prevents?a vitalizing of the collective. >>> >>> >>>I guess I don't think Nietzsche (or Blake or really frankly any such valorized charismatic creators) are that useful in such a project. As an ethical thinker, I think Nietzsche was kind of weak, except in his attack on monotheism. I don't know, part of it is he's like an ideational rorshach test (sp?). Too, I feel the artistic ideal of the charismatic creator is something Bourdieu critiques accurately, as just another product of capital. So I don't put much faith in charismatic artistic hero types, like N or artists like Rimbaud (or Keats, boo hoo on me, I know :)). Mostly for the reasons Bourdieu lays out in The Field of Cultural Production, I think we treat literature, all too often, like a religion, with writers (often male) serving as sacred heretics, whose transgressions we sacralize for reasons we're really not even entirely sure about.? >>> >>> >>>Now I'm probably raining on everyone's parade, sorry. :) >>> >>> >>>And so to get back to one of the earlier parts of this discussion: yes it's a complex world, but there are clear injustices that require clear effort, even if it means centuries effort. One of them is stop killing our fellow earthlings. I really believe people will look back on us in horror and wonder what the hell we were thinking killing fellow animals in such unprecedented numbers. Poetry that helps that, great. Philosophy that helps that, great. Meditation that helps that, great. Science, great. Literature and books that increase the chances we can expand empathy eventually to include other earthlings, great. Chaining ourselves to CAFO barns full of pigs, great. I really do -- and I use the term purposefully -- think it's a holocaust.? >>> >>> >>>"one big gift or power of disability is the way in which at root we--embody--hah!--the threat or presence of the non-productive body." Yes, and I can't help but think of non-human animals when I read this. We can't conceive of many kinds of animals as "non-productive." We can't conceive of a chicken or a pig or a cow as something that isn't FOR us. It is sometimes extremely difficult for me to conceive of even listening to anyone's discourse about social justice -- even someone as esteemed as John Rawls or Audre Lorde -- without wondering how unjust they might be toward the prospect of a "non-productive" pig self or chicken self or cow self. Can they accord such a radically non-productive self the empathy necessary not to make it "productive" by pretending not to partake in its murder while eating it? If we are to talk about respecting non-productive bodies, I'd like to broach the notion of the respect and sovereignty of those who may be differently abled and differently bodied -- but without a voice -- or even without a mode of being or set of percepts -- that we understand. >>> >>> >>>I'm not sure how I feel about notions of transcendence. All I know is we tend to respect a transcendence that points to something "out there" that we think we don't understand. But when that transcendent gap is pointing to the "other" of a pig or a cow or a thing we presume to understand but truly cannot, we dismiss that as a valuable gap to honor -- and we trample across it and kill. In the face of that failure of compassion, too much transcendence, for me, is mere spiritual self-congratulation.? >>> >>> >>>I really appreciate the link to Foucault's preface of D&G's Anti-Oedipus. I will read it, count on it. Don't know if I'll read Bataille, though, as for some reason I have this weird antipathy toward him. Not even sure why. (I do NOT recommend _Babyfucker_, btw). I mean, it's basically a re-write of Beckett's _Molloy_ but the guy penetrates babies instead of writes. It's gruesome and I wdn't read it again myself if it weren't something I could discuss with others. >>> >>> >>>And I have to say that I *do* like that notion of Rimbaud's you mention: that a poet's job is to measure the amount of unknown left in the world. Mostly because it seems to enroll the poet as a collector, maker, measurer of the remaining unknowns, as it implies a skeptical inquiry, a measuring, even if it's of the known unknowns (thank you, Donald Rumsfeld).? >>> >>> >>>Well, now, that's seriously got to be the longest email of the lot. Poor you. :) >>> >>> >>>Ha!, >>>Gabe >>> >>> >>>On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 9:03 PM, sheila black wrote: >>> >>>Gabriel: >>>> >>>>First, it is so nice of you to decide to teach my--our book. I hope you will find it--oh, irony intended, salutary in a dismal mind sort of way, but seriously (sincerely?) thanks; it >>>>is really awfully kind of you.? Maybe I shall look at Mr. Harris, but I warn you, I am a little afraid of programs of improvability no matter how intelligently or moderately put >>>>forth; For instance, I find myself really disagreeing with the following statement by H in the End of Faith: >>>> >>>>...we soon discover that 'love' is largely a matter of wishing that others experience happiness rather than suffering, and most of us come to feel that love is more conducive to happiness, both our own and that of others, than hate.? There is a circle here, that links us to one another: we each want to be happy; the social feeling of love is one of our greatest sources of happiness, and love entails that we be concerned for the happiness of others... >>>> >>>>It seems to me this is certainly part of the story, but also like a child's story of love; I would much rather such a world perhaps--or in some ways-- but in such a world, I fear I--and I am trying to employ "I" here in sort of a universal way--would be very much like Emily Bronte's Cathy, begging the angels to toss her out of heaven so she could return to the moors--I would not, I mean, be able to imagine myself so denatured when I have found myself generally much crueler, more partial, urgent in all my forms of love; I agree it is possible to study ways of "being other" or "becoming other,"? but I would not want to reduce to anodyne all the forms of love (however hard and mortifying at times I may have found them) for fear of? reducing what love might show--namely the ways in which such difficulty--to "love" or even simply "empathize" entirely with another-- represents the most pointed challenge or radical assault on the self--and, as such, to borrow your terminology, perhaps the most compelling way by which the self might stretch or thrive--embrace a larger circle of "others."? >>>> >>>>Maybe where we disagree is the emphasis we place on the transcendental; I think you see it as fantasy and, as such, a barrier to what might be a more "productive" exercise of faculties to create a more ethical, loving, social world.? I think I have less faith than you in the exercise of any power but the transcendental to cope with what I see as our essentially tragic structure as individual/social beings.? Not to sound hopeless, maybe it is just that 1) I think I am really v. 19th century in my imagination (I LOVE Keats!); and 2) like Mark I believe in the realm of the possible--one might struggle quite hard to see just a small measure of improvement or simply to re-vivify what is beautiful--and it is still worthwhile to do that.? But any suggestion that--which these Pinkertons and Harrises seem to make--we might find a kind of means of radical improvement through some sensible practice or study--that I don't quite really believe; indeed, I tend to see it as part of the whole realm of "productive" discourse I find problematic--and, yes, perhaps this is a legacy of being within a "flawed" body or a "disabled body" (though to be quite honest, I have never actually found this "disabling" in any real way; rather for me, it has been a sort of difficult privilege or gift), but I find the whole discourse of "disability" and "ability" (often focused and enacted "upon" the disabled individual)? points up the problem of how much all of our habits of thinking have been colonized by economic (capitalist even) ideas of? production; I often think one big gift or power of disability is the way in which at root we--embody--hah!--the threat or presence of the non-productive body.? (Or? would I simply prefer a heaven more disorderly?).? H\Yet there should, shouldn't there, be other ways of structuring ourselves--this is really a Neiztchian (god, I really can't spell at this time of day) idea--well, I never know what Neitzche's ideas? quite add up to (don't think I am entirely smart enough), but he is such a fertile, extraordinary mind, hard not to derive notions from him!--and this is one: that we must expand our realm of knowing and feeling out of cause and effect, out of the discourse of trade or barter, out of discourses of production--or maybe simply that if we could do so we would have more access to the infinite--or to the sensations of the infinite (which, yes, I suppose, too, we associate with love).? >>>> >>>>Well, I could go on--as I have been for e-mail after e-mail (how could I mind in the slightest yours being so long when mine are even longer?) but it strikes me that one thing you might consider is the role of power and desire in creating and preventing types of empathy. I don't know about you, but I think most art is in some sense about power and desire, or power or desire. I love that you love Deleuze.? Not to jump in with lots of suggestions for your class--which sounds pretty great--I do like that odd phrase "literature as a technology of empathy," but Delueze and Guattari's Anti-Oedipus might be a text worth considering because of how it posits society as a series of productions of desire and the role of the family within that (not positive in their book)--and the way Anti-Oedipus seeks collective structures--and the kind of more loving society you seem to be talking about, but figures these within an arena of how power flows or doesn't.? Hmmm haven't actually read the book in many years so that may be a terribly simplistic exegis.? But I also remember Foucault wrote the introduction and it was kind of this terrific rant about power and liberation and not being sad even as you fought against--what did you call it, ah, yes: ethical harm done by deontological ethics and faith-based religions. Here's a link to it: http://richardpayton.pbworks.com/w/page/12580685/Preface%20to%20Anti-Oedipus (though I'm guessing you've probably read it before...). Don't know what babyfucker is but one novel I was compelled by (though kind of vile) about love and transgression is George Bataille's Blue of Noon which he wrote as a kind of response to Emily Bronte (Oh, that 19th century again--maybe I love them so much because so much of their literature was created in the condition of the dismal, the burning, the mortally ill mind, the "present" of sickness which colors so much of their experience and thought and reaches such surprising ends....).? But, well, it seems worth considering: empathy as a product of struggle or emerging from a confluence of powers.? Maybe why I LOVE combat baby--there is a very funny/odd French film--sort of feels like a Dogma film about a downtrodden factory family; you expect this sort of kitchen sink realism, and then in the middle they have this baby, and the baby grow wings and becomes this kind of unstoppable, terrible, amazing force.? Ah, well,? on defying judgement--lovely remark--after all this disagreement maybe you, me, Catherine and John can agree on that idea of the new.? And I can also perhaps affirm that fifty is not really so far from forty-five, just that the death thing feels even a little closer, which is sometimes terrifying; others oddly vivifying. >>>> >>>>Thanks again--and for your patience with these (v. long!) e-mails. >>>> >>>>Best, >>>> >>>>Sheila? >>>> >>>>P.S.? Rimbaud--okay, I should shut up about Rimbaud, had this lovely idea of genius as collective or a collective resource....and also that it was job of the poet >>>>to measure the amount of unknown left in the world... >>>> >>>> >>> >>>_______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > >-- > >Sol Literary Magazine:?http://solliterarymagazine.com/ >The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org >https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home >http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning >http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf >http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Tue Nov 8 14:07:14 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 14:07:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Belgian_philosopher_Ladri=C3=A8re_quote?= In-Reply-To: <8CE6C60A3EBAD59-C4C-1C8FE1@webmail-m143.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE6C60A3EBAD59-C4C-1C8FE1@webmail-m143.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CE6C60C2321DA1-C4C-1C903D@webmail-m143.sysops.aol.com> http://conjecturesatrandom.blogspot.com/ Passing it on because I liked the quote, and art exhibit where I first encountered it. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 14:12:36 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 13:12:36 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Belgian_philosopher_Ladri=C3=A8re_quote?= In-Reply-To: <8CE6C60C2321DA1-C4C-1C903D@webmail-m143.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE6C60A3EBAD59-C4C-1C8FE1@webmail-m143.sysops.aol.com> <8CE6C60C2321DA1-C4C-1C903D@webmail-m143.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Nice blog, JforJ. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175 http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 1:07 PM, wrote: > http://conjecturesatrandom.blogspot.com/ > > Passing it on because I liked the quote, and art exhibit where I first > encountered it. > Finnegan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 16:53:12 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 22:53:12 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Christo In-Reply-To: <30394276.1320769674457.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <30394276.1320769674457.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: I liked the wrapping of buildings, and those orange sheets in Central Park were not too bad, just for a short time. I felt uneasy with the present idea. That is also why I forwarded the link. Thank you for your feedback. Yes, the article speaks of the creation of jobs and if I remember right, it also gives figures in terms of money coming in for the area. And I think he is also collaborating with environmentalists who should know what they are doing. On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 5:27 PM, wrote: > He tends not to publicize his wrapping of the Scarborough Cliffs outside > Toronto, which kept a lot of birds from their nests, resulting in a massive > die-off. This one could be worse--even a couple of weeks of lessened > sunlight at an altitude where summers are brief may be disastrous. Maybe > not--but it seems to me something one doesn't want to play with. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Graham ** > Sent: Nov 8, 2011 11:20 AM > To: NewPoetry ** > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Christo > > ** ** ** ** The headline may make it appear that $50M in federal money is > going toward Christo?s project. If this project is like his others, though, > the reverse is true. Christo raises all the money himself, and in fact > usually his works generate considerable revenue and even jobs for the > localities. Which is one reason he?s been so successful wrapping bridges, > buildings, and so forth in the past. Once they understand what he intends, > the bean counters and tourist boards tend to love him. > > The environmental impact of his works is another matter, as are the > aesthetics. But his stuff isn?t an example of your tax dollars at work. > > Perhaps we could persuade him to wrap the NewPoetry list in the future, > and we?d all make a ton of bucks. . . . > > > On 11/8/11 8:01 AM, "carol dorf" wrote: > > How about distributing $50 million in arts funding to 500 small presses? > > On Mon, Nov 7, 2011 at 10:37 PM, Anny Ballardini < > anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote: > > DENVER ? Federal regulators on Monday approved a $50 million installation > of anchored fabric over the Arkansas River in southern Colorado by the > artist Christo, whose larger-than-life vision has divided > environmentalists, residents and politicians for years over questions of > aesthetics, nature and economic impact. > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/08/us/United-States-Approves-Christos-Over-the-River-Project-in-Colorado.html?_r=1&hp > > > -- > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > ** ** **** > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Tue Nov 8 18:14:48 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 18:14:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Christo In-Reply-To: References: <30394276.1320769674457.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <8CE6C8356C732F5-F88-922B@webmail-d170.sysops.aol.com> Yes, Anny, wrapping gov't buildings, like his Reichstag project, would be better. Or wrapping the politicians up like mummies so their mouths can't move. Berlusconi in a wrapper wouldn't be a bad start. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry List Sent: Tue, Nov 8, 2011 11:53 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Christo I liked the wrapping of buildings, and those orange sheets in Central Park were not too bad, just for a short time. I felt uneasy with the present idea. That is also why I forwarded the link. Thank you for your feedback. Yes, the article speaks of the creation of jobs and if I remember right, it also gives figures in terms of money coming in for the area. And I think he is also collaborating with environmentalists who should know what they are doing. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Tue Nov 8 18:24:16 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 18:24:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] WorldPo: Prof of Po Down Under Message-ID: <8CE6C84AAD8CEF4-E18-120816@Webmail-d112.sysops.aol.com> http://www.theaustralian.com.au/higher-education/rhyme-and-reason-for-chair-in-poetry/story-e6frgcjx-1226189284352 TOMORROW, Barry Spurr will talk about "the bliss of solitude", a good subject for someone who occupies a solitary position as professor of poetry. He believes he is the country's first and only professor who professes poetry and nothing but. "There are other chairs overseas - the most famous one, of course, is at Oxford - but for some reason Australia has never actually had a professorship of poetry," he says. The chair is a personal one, given to Spurr in recognition of his 35 years at the University of Sydney, where poetry has been his "exclusive interest". -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Tue Nov 8 18:32:23 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 18:32:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <1464535.1320768619912.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <8CE6C85CCD2F281-1B6C-16E06@web-mmc-m09.sysops.aol.com> Tony, welcome back...10 years...glad you got time off for good behavior. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Anthony Robinson To: NewPoetry List Sent: Tue, Nov 8, 2011 8:41 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Hello all, Sorry to intrude on this thread. I can't get rid of the tail and I have momentarily forgotten how to post a new topic directly to the list. In any case, I am just dropping into say hello, having recently re-joined NewPoetry after a hiatus of only about ten years. I still see the same names--Hi Gabe, Hi Hal, Hi Anny! I'd contribute something to the conversation. Or I will as soon as I feel smart enough to "say" something. This current one is over my head. Cheers, Tony -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Nov 8 19:39:07 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2011 19:39:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] WorldPo: Prof of Po Down Under Message-ID: <24bca.55c6ff5b.3beb25a8@cs.com> In a message dated 11/8/2011 5:24:30 PM Central Standard Time, jforjames at aol.com writes: > > > http://www.theaustralian.com.au/higher-education/rhyme-and-reason-for-chair-in-poetry/story-e6frgcjx-1226189284352 > > TOMORROW, Barry Spurr will talk about "the bliss of solitude", a good > subject for someone who occupies a solitary position as professor of poetry. > > He believes he is the country's first and only professor who professes > poetry and nothing but. > > "There are other chairs overseas - the most famous one, of course, is at > Oxford - but for some reason Australia has never actually had a > professorship of poetry," he says. > > The chair is a personal one, given to Spurr in recognition of his 35 > years at the University of Sydney, where poetry has been his "exclusive > interest". > > I don't know if A. D. Hope had a chair, but it would have been a big one to fill, even bigger than Les Murray's. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Nov 9 10:39:58 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 10:39:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] WorldPo: Spain-Mexico's Tomas Segovia obit Message-ID: <8CE6D0CF83056E8-1A1C-1102C4@Webmail-m105.sysops.aol.com> http://latino.foxnews.com/latino/lifestyle/2011/11/08/poet-tomas-segovia-dies/ Mexico City ? Hispanic writer, poet and essayist Tomas Segovia died in the Mexican capital of complications to the cancer he suffered. He was 84. The Spanish-born Segovia, who went to Mexico as an exile after his homeland's 1936-1939 civil war, was the recipient of numerous honors including the 2000 Octavio Paz Prize for Poetry and the Essay and the 2005 Juan Rulfo Prize for Latin American and Caribbean Literature. He was also honored in 2008 with the Federico Garcia Lorca International Poetry Prize. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Wed Nov 9 11:01:47 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 08:01:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Christo In-Reply-To: <8CE6C8356C732F5-F88-922B@webmail-d170.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1320854507.77214.YahooMailClassic@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Christo has been doing this for decades. I wish he'd add another dimension to the project. What would it mean for Christo to unwrap something? --- On Tue, 11/8/11, jforjames at aol.com wrote: From: jforjames at aol.com Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Christo To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Tuesday, November 8, 2011, 6:14 PM Yes, Anny, wrapping gov't buildings, like his Reichstag project, would be better. Or wrapping the politicians up like mummies so their mouths can't move. Berlusconi in a wrapper wouldn't be a bad start. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry List Sent: Tue, Nov 8, 2011 11:53 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Christo I liked the wrapping of buildings, and those orange sheets in Central Park were not too bad, just for a short time. I felt uneasy with the present idea. That is also why I forwarded the link. Thank you for your feedback. Yes, the article speaks of the creation of jobs and if I remember right, it also gives figures in terms of money coming in for the area. And I think he is also collaborating with environmentalists who should know what they are doing. -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 11:53:29 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 17:53:29 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday, Anne Sexton. Message-ID: THIS DAY IN HISTORY: In 1928, Anne Sexton was born. -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 11:57:41 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 10:57:41 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy Birthday, Anne Sexton. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: and many more. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175 http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 10:53 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > THIS DAY IN HISTORY: In 1928, Anne Sexton was born. > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Wed Nov 9 12:22:03 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 12:22:03 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Christo Message-ID: <9783704.1320859324668.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 13:37:30 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 19:37:30 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Christo In-Reply-To: <9783704.1320859324668.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <9783704.1320859324668.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Here it is: http://www.christojeanneclaude.net/major_fence.shtml On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 6:22 PM, wrote: > Too risqu?? > > Christo tried to get the French authorities to prohibit tourists from > taking pictures of his wrapped Pont Neuf. They politely informed him that > the bridge had been there for four hundred years before it was wrapped, so > no dice. It's difficult to imagine that a lit of tourists who wouldn't have > come to Paris anyway did so just for the event. > > Interestingly, the Central Park arches project was received far more > enthusiastically by non-New Yorkers than by locals. Even our art critics > took it with a whole shaker full of salt. > > His Marin County project was stunning, however. > > It's not unusual to build art careers out of self-promotion. Christo may > be unique for the scale of it. His graphic works seldom stray from > depictions of his installations. They're ok, but nothing to write home > about. If they all depicted imaginary installations they wouldn't command > what they do, As it is, by the standards of the incredibly inflated > contemporary art market his prints (most of his work is multiples) don't > bring top prices--he survives on volume. > > Best, > > Mark > > > -----Original Message----- > From: stephen russell ** > Sent: Nov 9, 2011 11:01 AM > To: NewPoetry List ** > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Christo > > Christo has been doing this for decades. I wish he'd add another dimension > to the project. What would it mean for Christo to unwrap something? > > --- On *Tue, 11/8/11, jforjames at aol.com * wrote: > > > From: jforjames at aol.com > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Christo > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Tuesday, November 8, 2011, 6:14 PM > > Yes, Anny, wrapping gov't buildings, like his Reichstag project, would be > better. Or wrapping the politicians up like mummies so their mouths can't > move. Berlusconi in a wrapper wouldn't be a bad start. > Finnegan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anny Ballardini > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Tue, Nov 8, 2011 11:53 am > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Christo > > I liked the wrapping of buildings, and those orange sheets in Central > Park were not too bad, just for a short time. I felt uneasy with the > present idea. That is also why I forwarded the link. Thank you for your > feedback. Yes, the article speaks of the creation of jobs and if I remember > right, it also gives figures in terms of money coming in for the area. And > I think he is also collaborating with environmentalists who should know > what they are doing. > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > **** > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 14:49:18 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 20:49:18 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Welcome back Message-ID: Is this the Anthony Robinson who is coming back? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Robinson_%28novelist%29 The one who wrote *My Finnegan?* On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 7:35 PM, Anthony Robinson wrote: > Hello all, > > Sorry to intrude on this thread. I can't get rid of the tail and I have > momentarily forgotten how to post a new topic directly to the list. In any > case, I am just dropping into say hello, having recently re-joined > NewPoetry after a hiatus of only about ten years. I still see the same > names--Hi Gabe, Hi Hal, Hi Anny! > > I'd contribute something to the conversation. Or I will as soon as I feel > smart enough to "say" something. This current one is over my head. > > Cheers, > Tony > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Nov 9 14:53:08 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 14:53:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Welcome back In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2C5E429959154665B99F56B9C864E872@BobHP> Is this the Anthony Robinson who is coming back? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Robinson_%28novelist%29 Hey, Tony, now I remember you?but I can?t remember whether or not I decided you were an Enemy of Poetry. Regardless, welcome back. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Nov 9 14:54:40 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 14:54:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Welcome back In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: But wait?I can?t possibly have been putting up with the people here for ten years! Can I? --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 19:26:05 2011 From: antrobin at gmail.com (Anthony Robinson) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 16:26:05 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Welcome back In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: @Anny, Negative. This is the Anthony Robinson who nobody has ever heard of. Author of two chapbooks, lots of poems in little magazines, and former poetry editor at Northwest Review and The Canary. Now I'm unemployed and living in my parents' garage. Good times. Tony On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 11:49 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Is this the Anthony Robinson who is coming back? > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Robinson_%28novelist%29 > > The one who wrote *My Finnegan?* > > On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 7:35 PM, Anthony Robinson wrote: > >> Hello all, >> >> Sorry to intrude on this thread. I can't get rid of the tail and I have >> momentarily forgotten how to post a new topic directly to the list. In any >> case, I am just dropping into say hello, having recently re-joined >> NewPoetry after a hiatus of only about ten years. I still see the same >> names--Hi Gabe, Hi Hal, Hi Anny! >> >> I'd contribute something to the conversation. Or I will as soon as I feel >> smart enough to "say" something. This current one is over my head. >> >> Cheers, >> Tony >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 19:26:59 2011 From: antrobin at gmail.com (Anthony Robinson) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 16:26:59 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Welcome back In-Reply-To: <2C5E429959154665B99F56B9C864E872@BobHP> References: <2C5E429959154665B99F56B9C864E872@BobHP> Message-ID: Bob, Actually, I think you and I were usually on the same side, though I am not nearly as curmudgeonly or antagonistic as you. With ten years age, though, I think I'm on my way. Tony On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 11:53 AM, bob grumman wrote: > > Is this the Anthony Robinson who is coming back? > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Robinson_%28novelist%29 > > Hey, Tony, now I remember you?but I can?t remember whether or not I > decided you were an Enemy of Poetry. Regardless, welcome back. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Wed Nov 9 20:09:48 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 17:09:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Welcome back In-Reply-To: References: <2C5E429959154665B99F56B9C864E872@BobHP> Message-ID: <1320887388.26411.YahooMailNeo@web120524.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Actually Bob has mellowed: agreeable, deferential, rarely a word of disagreement. He's even moved to a luxury apartment in downtown Wilshberia. >________________________________ >From: Anthony Robinson >To: NewPoetry List >Sent: Wednesday, November 9, 2011 7:26 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Welcome back > > >Bob, > >Actually, I think you and I were usually on the same side, though I am not nearly as curmudgeonly or antagonistic as you.? With ten years age, though, I think I'm on my way. > >Tony > > >On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 11:53 AM, bob grumman wrote: > > >>?Is this the Anthony Robinson who is coming back? >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Robinson_%28novelist%29 >> >>Hey, Tony, now I remember you?but I can?t remember whether or not I decided you were an Enemy of Poetry.? Regardless, welcome back.? >>--Bob >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Wed Nov 9 20:41:49 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 01:41:49 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Welcome back In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I love Northwest Review! Don't feel bad Tony. We're in the center of Hard Times here--lots of gifted people with nothing to do but wish for jobs or better jobs and think about poetry. Good times.... Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2011 16:26:05 -0800 From: antrobin at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Welcome back @Anny, Negative. This is the Anthony Robinson who nobody has ever heard of. Author of two chapbooks, lots of poems in little magazines, and former poetry editor at Northwest Review and The Canary. Now I'm unemployed and living in my parents' garage. Good times. Tony On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 11:49 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: Is this the Anthony Robinson who is coming back? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Robinson_%28novelist%29 The one who wrote My Finnegan? On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 7:35 PM, Anthony Robinson wrote: Hello all, Sorry to intrude on this thread. I can't get rid of the tail and I have momentarily forgotten how to post a new topic directly to the list. In any case, I am just dropping into say hello, having recently re-joined NewPoetry after a hiatus of only about ten years. I still see the same names--Hi Gabe, Hi Hal, Hi Anny! I'd contribute something to the conversation. Or I will as soon as I feel smart enough to "say" something. This current one is over my head. Cheers, Tony _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Nov 10 05:54:26 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 02:54:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Stain_of_Poetry_--_Friday=2C_November_18_?= =?utf-8?b?wrcgNzowMHBtIC0gOTowMHBt?= Message-ID: <1320922466.71749.YahooMailNeo@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> CHRISTLE!!! SIEGELL!!! TAMAYO!!! WEISER!!! WHITE!!!Heather Christle is the author of The Trees The Trees (Octopus Books, 2011) and The Difficult Farm (Octopus Books, 2009). Her third book, What Is Amazing, will be published by Wesleyan University Press in 2012. She is the web editor for jubilat and lives in Western Massachusetts. ... Paul Siegell is the author of three books of poetry: wild life rifle fire (Otoliths Books, 2010), jambandbootleg (A-Head Publishing, 2009) and Poemergency Room (Otoliths Books, 2008). Paul is a senior editor at Painted Bride Quarterly, and has recently contributed to Black Warrior Review, Dark Sky Magazine, La Petite Zine and many other fine journals. Kindly find more of Paul?s work at ReVeLeR @ eYeLeVeL. A writer, artist, & performer, Jennifer Tamayo is interested in the human body. Her manuscript, Red Missed Aches, Read Missed Aches, Red Mistakes, Read Mistakes was selected by Cathy Park Hong as the 2010 winner of Switchback Book?s Gatewood Prize and was published in June 2011. She serves as the Managing Editor at Futurepoem and teaches art and poetry to students in Harlem. Recent work can be found at Delirious Hem and the New Delta Review. Currently, JT is working on a project on desire, Harriet Tubman, girly things, falling in love, photography, having affairs, silence, stalking, letter writing, Alfred Hitchcock and other personal matters. More on JT can be found at www.jennifertamayo.com Karen Weiser?s full-length collection To Light Out came out from Ugly Duckling Presse in 2010. She lives in New York City with five other creatures, two of them children, two pets. More information can be found at www.karenweiser.com. Jared White lives in Brooklyn, where he co-directs the Yardmeter Editions event series and, with Farrah Field, he has recently founded a poetry bookstore, Berl?s Brooklyn Poetry Shop. His chapbook Yellowcake was included in the hand-sewn anthology Narwhal from Cannibal Books in 2009. Poems and essays have also recently appeared in Action, Yes, Coconut, Harp & Altar, La Petite Zine, No, Dear, Open Letters Monthly, and We Are So Happy To Know Something. An occasional blog can be found at jaredswhite.blogspot.com. at Goodbye Blue Monday 1087 Broadway (corner of Dodworth St) Brooklyn, NY 11221-3013(718) 453-6343 J M Z trains to Myrtle Ave or J train to Kosciusko St Hosted by Steven Karl + Erika Moya + Christie Ann Reynolds http://stainofpoetry.wordpress.com/ -- Amy's Alias + http://amyking.org/? Latest +This is a poetry equally committed to language as a tool with social obligations and language as an art material obligated to reveal its own beauty.? --John Ashbery -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 10:19:35 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:19:35 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Welcome back In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Congratulations, not for the garage, but for Northwest Review: ?A publication to which the wise, and honest, and literate, may repair!? William Stafford On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 1:26 AM, Anthony Robinson wrote: > @Anny, > > Negative. This is the Anthony Robinson who nobody has ever heard of. > Author of two chapbooks, lots of poems in little magazines, and former > poetry editor at Northwest Review and The Canary. > > Now I'm unemployed and living in my parents' garage. Good times. > > Tony > > On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 11:49 AM, Anny Ballardini < > anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Is this the Anthony Robinson who is coming back? >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Robinson_%28novelist%29 >> >> The one who wrote *My Finnegan?* >> >> On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 7:35 PM, Anthony Robinson wrote: >> >>> Hello all, >>> >>> Sorry to intrude on this thread. I can't get rid of the tail and I have >>> momentarily forgotten how to post a new topic directly to the list. In any >>> case, I am just dropping into say hello, having recently re-joined >>> NewPoetry after a hiatus of only about ten years. I still see the same >>> names--Hi Gabe, Hi Hal, Hi Anny! >>> >>> I'd contribute something to the conversation. Or I will as soon as I >>> feel smart enough to "say" something. This current one is over my head. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Tony >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Nov 10 10:44:08 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 07:44:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Welcome back In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1320939848.72137.YahooMailNeo@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I really liked The Canary - why did it go defunct? Welcome back, Amy ? ********* Amy's Alias +?http://amyking.org/? ******** ________________________________ From: Anny Ballardini Congratulations, not for the garage, but for Northwest Review: ?A publication to which the wise, and honest, and literate, may repair!? William Stafford On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 1:26 AM, Anthony Robinson wrote: @Anny, > >Negative. This is the Anthony Robinson who nobody has ever heard of. Author of two chapbooks, lots of poems in little magazines, and former poetry editor at Northwest Review and The Canary. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Nov 10 12:06:12 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 12:06:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Welcome back In-Reply-To: References: <2C5E429959154665B99F56B9C864E872@BobHP> Message-ID: <475E90B181A14D7693A1DF6CA17EBEDB@BobHP> From: Anthony Robinson Sent: Wednesday, November 09, 2011 7:26 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Welcome back Bob, Actually, I think you and I were usually on the same side, though I am not nearly as curmudgeonly or antagonistic as you. With ten years age, though, I think I'm on my way. Tony Right. It?s all coming back, Tony. As for my curmudgeonliness, John?s right. Helen Vendler?s letting me live in that Wilshberia apartment rent-free, has had an incredibly positive effect on my disposition. I couldn?t be better-natured, even with Anny. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Thu Nov 10 13:28:36 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 13:28:36 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology Message-ID: <3873518.1320949717668.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> We talked about this briefly last week I think it was. Helen "The Hatchet" Vendler has her way with it in the new NYRB, which should be in the newsstands next week. About as scathing a review as imaginable. Mark From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Nov 10 16:16:29 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:16:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology In-Reply-To: <3873518.1320949717668.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <3873518.1320949717668.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <254C9529ABEE4D08AB6D4C9C1A81D698@BobHP> -----Original Message----- From: junction at earthlink.net Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 1:28 PM To: NewPoetry Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology We talked about this briefly last week I think it was. Helen "The Hatchet" Vendler has her way with it in the new NYRB, which should be in the newsstands next week. About as scathing a review as imaginable. Mark Yeah, I heard she was especially scathing about the absence of mathematical poetry. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Thu Nov 10 16:49:38 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:49:38 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology Message-ID: <18473353.1320961778056.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Thu Nov 10 16:51:50 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:51:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology Message-ID: <6127.35fb114c.3beda176@cs.com> You can purchase this week's issue online for $4.50. That's what I did, doubting that the NYRB will show up at my local B&N. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 16:52:37 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 14:52:37 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology In-Reply-To: <254C9529ABEE4D08AB6D4C9C1A81D698@BobHP> References: <3873518.1320949717668.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <254C9529ABEE4D08AB6D4C9C1A81D698@BobHP> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 2:16 PM, bob grumman wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- > From: junction at earthlink.net > Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 1:28 PM > To: NewPoetry > Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology > > We talked about this briefly last week I think it was. Helen "The Hatchet" > Vendler has her way with it in the new NYRB, which should be in the > newsstands next week. About as scathing a review as imaginable. > > Mark > > Yeah, I heard she was especially scathing about the absence of > mathematical poetry. > > Bob, we know you're an exponent of mathematical poetry, and even if all things were equal, the long divisions on this list would add up to a similar equation of Dove with Vendler, even if you subtract reviewers of the review. -- Jim Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 19:45:19 2011 From: antrobin at gmail.com (Anthony Robinson) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:45:19 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology In-Reply-To: References: <3873518.1320949717668.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <254C9529ABEE4D08AB6D4C9C1A81D698@BobHP> Message-ID: haha. Jim made a funny. On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 1:52 PM, James Cervantes wrote: > > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 2:16 PM, bob grumman wrote: > >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: junction at earthlink.net >> Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 1:28 PM >> To: NewPoetry >> Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology >> >> We talked about this briefly last week I think it was. Helen "The >> Hatchet" Vendler has her way with it in the new NYRB, which should be in >> the newsstands next week. About as scathing a review as imaginable. >> >> Mark >> >> Yeah, I heard she was especially scathing about the absence of >> mathematical poetry. >> >> > > Bob, we know you're an exponent of mathematical poetry, and even if all > things were equal, the long divisions on this list would add up to a > similar equation of Dove with Vendler, even if you subtract reviewers of > the review. > > -- Jim > > Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ > > The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > > https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home > > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning > > http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 19:50:26 2011 From: antrobin at gmail.com (Anthony Robinson) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2011 16:50:26 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Welcome back In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Anny, Not sure congratulations on the NWR are in order. I was a poetry editor there for 8 years and then one day the English department decided it would no longer fund something as frivolous as a literary journal. Within a couple of weeks, a certain Hawaiian poet of questionable ethics and more than a passing resemblance to a walrus used some of his department's money to take over the magazine. We were all promptly fired. I haven't seen an issue of the "New" NWR but I'm sure I'd be less than thrilled with it. Amy, The Canary faded away, or burned out. Actually, it just became neglected. At the time of the last issue, all editors were in different parts of the country and/or world, and we were still receiving mostly snail mail submissions, and it became a pain to distribute them amongst us and then find times to chat and discuss. The main reason, though, is that the other editors decided they wanted to start a press (Canarium) and put the funds in that basket. I somehow did not figure into this equation. And that's what happened! Tony On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 7:19 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Congratulations, not for the garage, but for Northwest Review: > > ?A publication > to which the wise, and > honest, and literate, > may repair!? > > William Stafford > > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 1:26 AM, Anthony Robinson wrote: > >> @Anny, >> >> Negative. This is the Anthony Robinson who nobody has ever heard of. >> Author of two chapbooks, lots of poems in little magazines, and former >> poetry editor at Northwest Review and The Canary. >> >> Now I'm unemployed and living in my parents' garage. Good times. >> >> Tony >> >> On Wed, Nov 9, 2011 at 11:49 AM, Anny Ballardini < >> anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Is this the Anthony Robinson who is coming back? >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Robinson_%28novelist%29 >>> >>> The one who wrote *My Finnegan?* >>> >>> On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 7:35 PM, Anthony Robinson wrote: >>> >>>> Hello all, >>>> >>>> Sorry to intrude on this thread. I can't get rid of the tail and I >>>> have momentarily forgotten how to post a new topic directly to the list. >>>> In any case, I am just dropping into say hello, having recently re-joined >>>> NewPoetry after a hiatus of only about ten years. I still see the same >>>> names--Hi Gabe, Hi Hal, Hi Anny! >>>> >>>> I'd contribute something to the conversation. Or I will as soon as I >>>> feel smart enough to "say" something. This current one is over my head. >>>> >>>> Cheers, >>>> Tony >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 07:47:17 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 13:47:17 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas In-Reply-To: <100e01cc9e48$5c173340$144599c0$@ilstu.edu> References: <100e01cc9e48$5c173340$144599c0$@ilstu.edu> Message-ID: Lovely! On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 7:58 PM, Bill Morgan wrote: > My former mother-in-law used to intone, to the delight of my 4-year old:** > ** > > ** ** > > I eat my peas with honey.**** > > I?ve done it all my life.**** > > It makes the peas taste funny,**** > > But it keeps them on my knife.**** > > ** ** > > Bill Morgan**** > > ** ** > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Fri Nov 11 08:53:28 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 05:53:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology In-Reply-To: <3873518.1320949717668.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1321019608.11965.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> A preview of coming attractions (from Helen V): Multicultural inclusiveness prevails: some 175 poets are represented. No century in the evolution of poetry in English ever had 175 poets worth reading, so why are we being asked to sample so many poets of little or no lasting value? Anthologists may now be extending a too general welcome. Selectivity has been condemned as ?elitism,? and a hundred flowers are invited to bloom. People who wouldn?t be able to take on the long-term commitment of a novel find a longed-for release in writing a poem. And it seems rude to denigrate the heartfelt lines of people moved to verse. It is popular to say (and it is in part true) that in literary matters tastes differ, and that every critic can be wrong. But there is a certain objectivity bestowed by the mere passage of time, and its sifting of wheat from chaff: Which of Dove?s 175 poets will have staying power, and which will seep back into the archives of sociology? --- On Thu, 11/10/11, junction at earthlink.net wrote: From: junction at earthlink.net Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology To: "NewPoetry" Date: Thursday, November 10, 2011, 1:28 PM We talked about this briefly last week I think it was. Helen "The Hatchet" Vendler has her way with it in the new NYRB, which should be in the newsstands next week. About as scathing a review as imaginable. Mark _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From almaginnes at aol.com Fri Nov 11 09:18:58 2011 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 09:18:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology In-Reply-To: <1321019608.11965.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1321019608.11965.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CE6E93FCCEFDA9-15E4-141CF@Webmail-m125.sysops.aol.com> The fact is we don't know which poets from the 20th century will still be read 300 years or a 1000 years from now. We probably have a good idea or think we do, but how many anthologists in 1890 or 1900 would have bet that Emily Dickinson would be acclaimed one of the two most important American poets of the 19th century. The whole idea of an anthology, as I understand it, is to offer a broad taste of what's available. Then the curious can track down more Elizabeth Bishop or Vachel Lindsay or whoever rocks their boat that morning. -----Original Message----- From: stephen russell To: NewPoetry List Sent: Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:04 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology A preview of coming attractions (from Helen V): Multicultural inclusiveness prevails: some 175 poets are represented. No century in the evolution of poetry in English ever had 175 poets worth reading, so why are we being asked to sample so many poets of little or no lasting value? Anthologists may now be extending a too general welcome. Selectivity has been condemned as ?elitism,? and a hundred flowers are invited to bloom. People who wouldn?t be able to take on the long-term commitment of a novel find a longed-for release in writing a poem. And it seems rude to denigrate the heartfelt lines of people moved to verse. It is popular to say (and it is in part true) that in literary matters tastes differ, and that every critic can be wrong. But there is a certain objectivity bestowed by the mere passage of time, and its sifting of wheat from chaff: Which of Dove?s 175 poets will have staying power, and which will seep back into the archives of sociology? --- On Thu, 11/10/11, junction at earthlink.net wrote: From: junction at earthlink.net Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology To: "NewPoetry" Date: Thursday, November 10, 2011, 1:28 PM We talked about this briefly last week I think it was. Helen "The Hatchet" Vendler has her way with it in the new NYRB, which should be in the newsstands next week. About as scathing a review as imaginable. Mark _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Nov 11 09:41:44 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 09:41:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology In-Reply-To: References: <3873518.1320949717668.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net><254C9529ABEE4D08AB6D4C9C1A81D698@BobHP> Message-ID: From: Anthony Robinson Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 7:45 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology haha. Jim made a funny. Yeah, he?s developed a sense of humor since you were last here, Tony. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Nov 11 09:59:33 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 09:59:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology In-Reply-To: <8CE6E93FCCEFDA9-15E4-141CF@Webmail-m125.sysops.aol.com> References: <1321019608.11965.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8CE6E93FCCEFDA9-15E4-141CF@Webmail-m125.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: From: almaginnes at aol.com Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 9:18 AM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology The fact is we don't know which poets from the 20th century will still be read 300 years or a 1000 years from now. We probably have a good idea or think we do, but how many anthologists in 1890 or 1900 would have bet that Emily Dickinson would be acclaimed one of the two most important American poets of the 19th century. The whole idea of an anthology, as I understand it, is to offer a broad taste of what's available. Then the curious can track down more Elizabeth Bishop or Vachel Lindsay or whoever rocks their boat that morning. My idea of an anthology is for it to represent what you want it to: your idea of the canon, your favorites of all sorts of poems; your idea of the best of one kind of poem; your idea of some group of representative poems; all the poems you know of about violets, or whatever. If Dove claims her anthology includes the best poets of the past century, Vendler can rightly jump on her?although her idea of the best poets would not be much better (although I do think it would be better). If Dove?s anthology is just a collection of Dove?s favorites, I would have no huge problem with it, only a wish she had broader taste. Vendler?s apparent belief that we can work out who the most important or effective poets of the last twenty or thirty years of American poetry is preposterous?although easy, I suppose, for one aware only of Wilshberia. I still think it stupid to bother with the poets of the first half of the century. I must have at least ten collections each of which includes at least 95% of them, and all of which taken together cover the entire field. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 10:03:29 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 09:03:29 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: TRUCK stop In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Andrew Burke Date: Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 8:19 AM Subject: TRUCK stop To: POETRYETC at jiscmail.ac.uk If you're at a loose end, or even if you're as busy as hell, please take a minute or two to read TRUCK at http://halvard-johnson.blogspot.com/ I've published a sequence to follow Doug and Sheila's - and this one is by Phil Hall, Canadian poet, and myself, Aussie bloke. I explain the circumstances before the poem, but I must tell you my wife suggested placing it in the mag at this stage. Good thought. I normally avoid publishing myself when I'm editing - it just seems bad manners - but I tell myself it is a sequence, and Phil had more control over it than I had. I hope you agree. You'll also find Lawrence there, and Ken Wolman, and Australian poets Geof Page and Andrew Taylor. More to come in the days that follow! Brmmm brmmm and off we go again ... Andrew http://hispirits.blogspot.com/ http://www.mullamullapress.com/QWERTY BLUE ROSE enovel avail. at Amazon, Smashwords and http://etextpress.com/books.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Fri Nov 11 10:07:31 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 07:07:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1321024051.95370.YahooMailClassic@web161903.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Which brings us back to worship. If serial rereading is one way to define worship, then one of Borges?s most revered gods was Robert Louis Stevenson. This even though in Borges?s time, Stevenson?s work was basically considered kid stuff. The first seven editions of the Norton Anthology of English Literature do not deign to include Stevenson, though he finally surfaces in the eighth edition, published in 2006. Borges not only commented on books that didn?t exist. He read books ? pulpy and arcane alike ? that few others bothered to see. --- On Fri, 11/11/11, bob grumman wrote: From: bob grumman Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Friday, November 11, 2011, 9:59 AM ? ? From: almaginnes at aol.com Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 9:18 AM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology ? The fact is we don't know which poets from the 20th century will still be read 300 years or a 1000 years from now. We probably have a good idea or think we do, but how many anthologists in 1890 or 1900 would have bet that Emily Dickinson would be acclaimed one of the two most important American poets of the 19th century. The whole idea of an anthology, as I understand it, is to offer a broad taste of what's available. Then the curious can track down more Elizabeth Bishop or Vachel Lindsay or whoever rocks their boat that morning. My idea of an anthology is for it to represent what you want it to: your idea of the canon, your favorites of all sorts of poems; your idea of the best of one kind of poem; your idea of some group of representative poems; all the poems you know of about violets, or whatever.? If Dove claims her anthology includes the best poets of the past century, Vendler can rightly jump on her?although her idea of the best poets would not be much better (although I do think it would be better).? If Dove?s anthology is just a collection of Dove?s favorites, I would have no huge problem with it, only a wish she had broader taste.? Vendler?s apparent belief that we can work out who the most important or effective poets of the last twenty or thirty years of American poetry is preposterous?although easy, I suppose, for one aware only of Wilshberia. ? I still think it stupid to bother with the poets of the first half of the century.? I must have at least ten collections each of which includes at least 95% of them, and all of which taken together cover the entire field. ? --Bob -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Nov 11 10:12:32 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:12:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Welcome back In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8FA71EA350FD4440805D5DDCABDE57D7@BobHP> From: Anthony Robinson Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 7:50 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Welcome back Anny, Not sure congratulations on the NWR are in order. I was a poetry editor there for 8 years and then one day the English department decided it would no longer fund something as frivolous as a literary journal. Within a couple of weeks, a certain Hawaiian poet of questionable ethics and more than a passing resemblance to a walrus used some of his department's money to take over the magazine. We were all promptly fired. I haven't seen an issue of the "New" NWR but I'm sure I'd be less than thrilled with it. Well, as long as it stayed in the northwest . . . I liked it because of the old Wilshberian David Wagoner?s association with it. I like his work even though he got at least one poem into The New Yorker. Unless I?m thinking of a different magazine? --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Nov 11 10:16:42 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham-RC) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 09:16:42 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology In-Reply-To: <8CE6E93FCCEFDA9-15E4-141CF@Webmail-m125.sysops.aol.com> References: <1321019608.11965.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8CE6E93FCCEFDA9-15E4-141CF@Webmail-m125.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Yes, in the brief excerpt I read (not sure I'm willing to pay 5 bucks for the whole review!) Vendler expresses a common opinion: "No century in the evolution of poetry in English ever had 175 poets worth reading, so why are we being asked to sample so many poets of little or no lasting value?" One might call that the Elite Lament, or William Logan Fallacy, for the reason Al Maginnes notes. An anthology of any kind is, of course, a snapshot of current taste. Most if not all anthologies quickly seem dated, and the track record of editors getting things "right" in terms of future taste is abysmal. Otherwise all our anthologies of 19th Century American poetry would be stuffed with Whittier, Bryant, Holmes, Longfellow, and even lesser lights, with no Dickinson, Whitman, Crane, Melville, and certainly no Trumbull Stickney. Nothing looks sillier faster, I would argue, than one of those anthologies that tries to go deep, and sample more poems by fewer poets. That's when you end up with 20 pages of Louis Untermeyer and no Langston Hughes. Such anthologies have their place when addressing a theme, or attempting a correction of received wisdom, or calling attention to the unjustly neglected, and so forth. When they attempt magisterial surveys of a whole period, they're bound to fail, and not later but sooner. Of course, Vendler herself famously produced exactly such a anthology, *The Harvard Book of Contemporary American Poetry* back in the 1980s, which includes good poems by good poets but is utterly useless as an historical survey. Dove's sin, as I said before, is not in being too inclusive; it's in leaving out poets like Plath and Ginsberg. I cannot fathom her reasoning. It's certainly within her rights to consider, say, Sexton a better poet than Plath. A looney opinion, to my mind, but within an anthologist's prerogative if she wishes to present "my favorite 20 poets" or something. But in a book which clearly aims to go very wide rather than deep, and present a valuable historical snapshot, what possible justification can there be for including no Plath AT ALL, when you are going to sample poets such as Angelina Weld Grimke, Edgar Lee Masters, and Sara Teasdale? Is there *any* responsible critic who argues that Plath is *both* a lesser poet and a less influential poet than Teasdale? Or, for heaven's sake, that even Diane Wakoski is better than Plath? Likewise with leaving out Ginsberg. His omission alone invalidates Dove's effort as a 20th Century survey. It would be like a 19th C. anthology with no Dickinson. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Nov 11, 2011, at 8:18 AM, AlMaginnes at aol.com wrote: > The fact is we don't know which poets from the 20th century will still be read 300 years or a 1000 years from now. We probably have a good idea or think we do, but how many anthologists in 1890 or 1900 would have bet that Emily Dickinson would be acclaimed one of the two most important American poets of the 19th century. The whole idea of an anthology, as I understand it, is to offer a broad taste of what's available. Then the curious can track down more Elizabeth Bishop or Vachel Lindsay or whoever rocks their boat that morning. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: stephen russell > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:04 am > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology > > A preview of coming attractions (from Helen V): > > Multicultural inclusiveness prevails: some 175 poets are represented. No century in the evolution of poetry in English ever had 175 poets worth reading, so why are we being asked to sample so many poets of little or no lasting value? Anthologists may now be extending a too general welcome. Selectivity has been condemned as ?elitism,? and a hundred flowers are invited to bloom. People who wouldn?t be able to take on the long-term commitment of a novel find a longed-for release in writing a poem. And it seems rude to denigrate the heartfelt lines of people moved to verse. It is popular to say (and it is in part true) that in literary matters tastes differ, and that every critic can be wrong. But there is a certain objectivity bestowed by the mere passage of time, and its sifting of wheat from chaff: Which of Dove?s 175 poets will have staying power, and which will seep back into the archives of sociology? > > --- On Thu, 11/10/11, junction at earthlink.net wrote: ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 10:19:09 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:19:09 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology Message-ID: <29639616.1321024749702.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 10:16:04 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:16:04 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology Message-ID: <17176618.1321024565222.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Fri Nov 11 10:24:20 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 09:24:20 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas In-Reply-To: References: <100e01cc9e48$5c173340$144599c0$@ilstu.edu> Message-ID: <4EBD3E24.9010401@louisiana.edu> I think that of the great passions bound up with poetry--power, sex, money, art--there's a lot to be said for the food poem, and this one's terrific. I love the way its persona jumps up at you. Jerry On 11/11/2011 6:47 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > I eat my peas with honey. > > I've done it all my life. > > It makes the peas taste funny, > > But it keeps them on my knife. > > Bill Morgan > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 10:29:45 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 08:29:45 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: HINCHAS #5 is on the air ... In-Reply-To: <1321020521.89972.YahooMailNeo@web112104.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <1321020521.89972.YahooMailNeo@web112104.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: www.hinchasdepoesia.com Friends; The fifth issue of *Hinchas de Poesia* has gone live! Contributors in this issue include Melinda Palacio, David Spicer, Louis Bourgeois, Kristine Chalifoux & Luivette Resto; fiction by Kurt Mueller; reviews of Melinda Palacio's *Ocotillo Dreams* & *Sing: Poetry from the Indigenous Americas*, edited by Allison Adelle Hedge Coke. To view the issue, click the link above. Once you get to the site click on "Issue." Due to the vagaries of the numerous browsers available we recommend that you refresh the page before continuing. Yago & I are excited about this issue, its range of voices & themes cinched to the unique geographies the writers depend on. Feel free to share Hinchas #5 with your peers, associates, colleagues, friends,students, parents, neighbors or even complete strangers. We'd like you to help us spread the word far & wide. & enjoy. Here's how! Jim Heavily Poetry Editor *Hinchas de Poesia* -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 10:34:04 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 08:34:04 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology In-Reply-To: References: <3873518.1320949717668.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <254C9529ABEE4D08AB6D4C9C1A81D698@BobHP> Message-ID: Could have gone with "Dove Meets The Hatchet," a literary horror film. - Jim On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 5:45 PM, Anthony Robinson wrote: > haha. Jim made a funny. > > On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 1:52 PM, James Cervantes < > cervantes.james at gmail.com> wrote: > >> >> >> On Thu, Nov 10, 2011 at 2:16 PM, bob grumman wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: junction at earthlink.net >>> Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 1:28 PM >>> To: NewPoetry >>> Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology >>> >>> We talked about this briefly last week I think it was. Helen "The >>> Hatchet" Vendler has her way with it in the new NYRB, which should be in >>> the newsstands next week. About as scathing a review as imaginable. >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> Yeah, I heard she was especially scathing about the absence of >>> mathematical poetry. >>> >>> >> >> Bob, we know you're an exponent of mathematical poetry, and even if all >> things were equal, the long divisions on this list would add up to a >> similar equation of Dove with Vendler, even if you subtract reviewers of >> the review. >> >> -- Jim >> >> Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ >> >> The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org >> >> https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home >> >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning >> >> http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf >> >> http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Fri Nov 11 10:43:40 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:43:40 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology In-Reply-To: References: <1321019608.11965.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>, <8CE6E93FCCEFDA9-15E4-141CF@Webmail-m125.sysops.aol.com>, Message-ID: I like that phrase William Logan Fallacy; now the question which poets will pass the Vendler Razor or the Grumann Uncertainty Principle.... From: grahamd at ripon.edu Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 09:16:42 -0600 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology Yes, in the brief excerpt I read (not sure I'm willing to pay 5 bucks for the whole review!) Vendler expresses a common opinion: "No century in the evolution of poetry in English ever had 175 poets worth reading, so why are we being asked to sample so many poets of little or no lasting value?" One might call that the Elite Lament, or William Logan Fallacy, for the reason Al Maginnes notes. An anthology of any kind is, of course, a snapshot of current taste. Most if not all anthologies quickly seem dated, and the track record of editors getting things "right" in terms of future taste is abysmal. Otherwise all our anthologies of 19th Century American poetry would be stuffed with Whittier, Bryant, Holmes, Longfellow, and even lesser lights, with no Dickinson, Whitman, Crane, Melville, and certainly no Trumbull Stickney. Nothing looks sillier faster, I would argue, than one of those anthologies that tries to go deep, and sample more poems by fewer poets. That's when you end up with 20 pages of Louis Untermeyer and no Langston Hughes. Such anthologies have their place when addressing a theme, or attempting a correction of received wisdom, or calling attention to the unjustly neglected, and so forth. When they attempt magisterial surveys of a whole period, they're bound to fail, and not later but sooner. Of course, Vendler herself famously produced exactly such a anthology, *The Harvard Book of Contemporary American Poetry* back in the 1980s, which includes good poems by good poets but is utterly useless as an historical survey. Dove's sin, as I said before, is not in being too inclusive; it's in leaving out poets like Plath and Ginsberg. I cannot fathom her reasoning. It's certainly within her rights to consider, say, Sexton a better poet than Plath. A looney opinion, to my mind, but within an anthologist's prerogative if she wishes to present "my favorite 20 poets" or something. But in a book which clearly aims to go very wide rather than deep, and present a valuable historical snapshot, what possible justification can there be for including no Plath AT ALL, when you are going to sample poets such as Angelina Weld Grimke, Edgar Lee Masters, and Sara Teasdale? Is there *any* responsible critic who argues that Plath is *both* a lesser poet and a less influential poet than Teasdale? Or, for heaven's sake, that even Diane Wakoski is better than Plath? Likewise with leaving out Ginsberg. His omission alone invalidates Dove's effort as a 20th Century survey. It would be like a 19th C. anthology with no Dickinson. ========================================David Grahamgrahamd at ripon.eduHome Page:http://web.me.com/drjazzPoetry Library:http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html========================================== On Nov 11, 2011, at 8:18 AM, AlMaginnes at aol.com wrote: The fact is we don't know which poets from the 20th century will still be read 300 years or a 1000 years from now. We probably have a good idea or think we do, but how many anthologists in 1890 or 1900 would have bet that Emily Dickinson would be acclaimed one of the two most important American poets of the 19th century. The whole idea of an anthology, as I understand it, is to offer a broad taste of what's available. Then the curious can track down more Elizabeth Bishop or Vachel Lindsay or whoever rocks their boat that morning. -----Original Message----- From: stephen russell To: NewPoetry List Sent: Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:04 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology A preview of coming attractions (from Helen V): Multicultural inclusiveness prevails: some 175 poets are represented. No century in the evolution of poetry in English ever had 175 poets worth reading, so why are we being asked to sample so many poets of little or no lasting value? Anthologists may now be extending a too general welcome. Selectivity has been condemned as ?elitism,? and a hundred flowers are invited to bloom. People who wouldn?t be able to take on the long-term commitment of a novel find a longed-for release in writing a poem. And it seems rude to denigrate the heartfelt lines of people moved to verse. It is popular to say (and it is in part true) that in literary matters tastes differ, and that every critic can be wrong. But there is a certain objectivity bestowed by the mere passage of time, and its sifting of wheat from chaff: Which of Dove?s 175 poets will have staying power, and which will seep back into the archives of sociology? --- On Thu, 11/10/11, junction at earthlink.net wrote: ========================================David Grahamgrahamd at ripon.eduHome Page:http://web.me.com/drjazzPoetry Library:http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html========================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Fri Nov 11 10:48:12 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 07:48:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology Message-ID: <1321026492.25362.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Is there *any* responsible critic who argues that Plath is *both* a lesser poet and a less influential poet than Teasdale? ?Or, for heaven's sake, that even Diane Wakoski is better than Plath? Certainly no sane critic would make that argument. I got hooked on Plath (all the way back (20th century)) ... after reading the extended metaphor below -- Metaphors by Sylvia Plath1 I'm a riddle in nine syllables. An elephant, a ponderous house, A melon strolling on two tendrils. O red fruit, ivory, fine timbers! This loaf's big with its yeasty rising. Money's new-minted in this fat purse. I'm a means, a stage, a cow in calf. I've eaten a bag of green apples, Boarded the train there's no getting off. --- On Fri, 11/11/11, David Graham-RC wrote: From: David Graham-RC Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Friday, November 11, 2011, 10:16 AM Yes, in the brief excerpt I read (not sure I'm willing to pay 5 bucks for the whole review!) Vendler expresses a common opinion: ?"No century in the evolution of poetry in English ever had 175 poets worth reading, so why are we being asked to sample so many poets of little or no lasting value?" One might call that the Elite Lament, or William Logan Fallacy, for the reason Al Maginnes notes. ?An anthology of any kind is, of course, a snapshot of current taste. ?Most if not all anthologies quickly seem dated, and the track record of editors getting things "right" in terms of future taste is abysmal. ?Otherwise all our anthologies of 19th Century American poetry would be stuffed with Whittier, Bryant, Holmes, Longfellow, and even lesser lights, with no Dickinson, Whitman, Crane, Melville, and certainly no Trumbull Stickney. ? Nothing looks sillier faster, I would argue, than one of those anthologies that tries to go deep, and sample more poems by fewer poets. ?That's when you end up with 20 pages of Louis Untermeyer and no Langston Hughes. ?Such anthologies have their place when addressing a theme, or attempting a correction of received wisdom, or calling attention to the unjustly neglected, and so forth. ?When they attempt magisterial surveys of a whole period, they're bound to fail, and not later but sooner. ?Of course, Vendler herself famously produced exactly such a anthology, *The Harvard Book of Contemporary American Poetry* back in the 1980s, which includes good poems by good poets but is utterly useless as an historical survey. ? Dove's sin, as I said before, is not in being too inclusive; it's in leaving out poets like Plath and Ginsberg. ?I cannot fathom her reasoning. ?It's certainly within her rights to consider, say, Sexton a better poet than Plath. ?A looney opinion, to my mind, but within an anthologist's prerogative if she wishes to present "my favorite 20 poets" or something. ?But in a book which clearly aims to go very wide rather than deep, and present a valuable historical snapshot, what possible justification can there be for including no Plath AT ALL, when you are going to sample poets such as Angelina Weld Grimke, Edgar Lee Masters, and Sara Teasdale? ?Is there *any* responsible critic who argues that Plath is *both* a lesser poet and a less influential poet than Teasdale? ?Or, for heaven's sake, that even Diane Wakoski is better than Plath? Likewise with leaving out Ginsberg. ?His omission alone invalidates Dove's effort as a 20th Century survey. ?It would be like a 19th C. anthology with no Dickinson. ? ========================================David Grahamgrahamd at ripon.edu Home Page:http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library:http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html========================================== On Nov 11, 2011, at 8:18 AM, AlMaginnes at aol.com wrote: The fact is we don't know which poets from the 20th century will still be read 300 years or a 1000 years from now. We probably have a good idea or think we do, but how many anthologists in 1890 or 1900 would have bet that Emily Dickinson would be acclaimed one of the two most important American poets of the 19th century. The whole idea of an anthology, as I understand it, is to offer a broad taste of what's available. Then the curious can track down more Elizabeth Bishop or Vachel Lindsay or whoever rocks their boat that morning. -----Original Message----- From: stephen russell To: NewPoetry List Sent: Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:04 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology A preview of coming attractions (from Helen V): Multicultural inclusiveness prevails: some 175 poets are represented. No century in the evolution of poetry in English ever had 175 poets worth reading, so why are we being asked to sample so many poets of little or no lasting value? Anthologists may now be extending a too general welcome. Selectivity has been condemned as ?elitism,? and a hundred flowers are invited to bloom. People who wouldn?t be able to take on the long-term commitment of a novel find a longed-for release in writing a poem. And it seems rude to denigrate the heartfelt lines of people moved to verse. It is popular to say (and it is in part true) that in literary matters tastes differ, and that every critic can be wrong. But there is a certain objectivity bestowed by the mere passage of time, and its sifting of wheat from chaff: Which of Dove?s 175 poets will have staying power, and which will seep back into the archives of sociology? --- On Thu, 11/10/11, junction at earthlink.net wrote: ========================================David Grahamgrahamd at ripon.edu Home Page:http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library:http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html========================================== -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 11:19:00 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:19:00 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology Message-ID: <7981023.1321028341975.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Fri Nov 11 11:16:18 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 08:16:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology In-Reply-To: <1321026492.25362.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1321028178.57564.YahooMailClassic@web161916.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ... An elephant, a ponderous house ... S --- On Fri, 11/11/11, stephen russell wrote: From: stephen russell Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Friday, November 11, 2011, 10:48 AM Is there *any* responsible critic who argues that Plath is *both* a lesser poet and a less influential poet than Teasdale? ?Or, for heaven's sake, that even Diane Wakoski is better than Plath? Certainly no sane critic would make that argument. I got hooked on Plath (all the way back (20th century)) ... after reading the extended metaphor below -- Metaphors by Sylvia Plath1 I'm a riddle in nine syllables. An elephant, a ponderous house, A melon strolling on two tendrils. O red fruit, ivory, fine timbers! This loaf's big with its yeasty rising. Money's new-minted in this fat purse. I'm a means, a stage, a cow in calf. I've eaten a bag of green apples, Boarded the train there's no getting off. --- On Fri, 11/11/11, David Graham-RC wrote: From: David Graham-RC Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Friday, November 11, 2011, 10:16 AM Yes, in the brief excerpt I read (not sure I'm willing to pay 5 bucks for the whole review!) Vendler expresses a common opinion: ?"No century in the evolution of poetry in English ever had 175 poets worth reading, so why are we being asked to sample so many poets of little or no lasting value?" One might call that the Elite Lament, or William Logan Fallacy, for the reason Al Maginnes notes. ?An anthology of any kind is, of course, a snapshot of current taste. ?Most if not all anthologies quickly seem dated, and the track record of editors getting things "right" in terms of future taste is abysmal. ?Otherwise all our anthologies of 19th Century American poetry would be stuffed with Whittier, Bryant, Holmes, Longfellow, and even lesser lights, with no Dickinson, Whitman, Crane, Melville, and certainly no Trumbull Stickney. ? Nothing looks sillier faster, I would argue, than one of those anthologies that tries to go deep, and sample more poems by fewer poets. ?That's when you end up with 20 pages of Louis Untermeyer and no Langston Hughes. ?Such anthologies have their place when addressing a theme, or attempting a correction of received wisdom, or calling attention to the unjustly neglected, and so forth. ?When they attempt magisterial surveys of a whole period, they're bound to fail, and not later but sooner. ?Of course, Vendler herself famously produced exactly such a anthology, *The Harvard Book of Contemporary American Poetry* back in the 1980s, which includes good poems by good poets but is utterly useless as an historical survey. ? Dove's sin, as I said before, is not in being too inclusive; it's in leaving out poets like Plath and Ginsberg. ?I cannot fathom her reasoning. ?It's certainly within her rights to consider, say, Sexton a better poet than Plath. ?A looney opinion, to my mind, but within an anthologist's prerogative if she wishes to present "my favorite 20 poets" or something. ?But in a book which clearly aims to go very wide rather than deep, and present a valuable historical snapshot, what possible justification can there be for including no Plath AT ALL, when you are going to sample poets such as Angelina Weld Grimke, Edgar Lee Masters, and Sara Teasdale? ?Is there *any* responsible critic who argues that Plath is *both* a lesser poet and a less influential poet than Teasdale? ?Or, for heaven's sake, that even Diane Wakoski is better than Plath? Likewise with leaving out Ginsberg. ?His omission alone invalidates Dove's effort as a 20th Century survey. ?It would be like a 19th C. anthology with no Dickinson. ? ========================================David Grahamgrahamd at ripon.edu Home Page:http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library:http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html========================================== On Nov 11, 2011, at 8:18 AM, AlMaginnes at aol.com wrote: The fact is we don't know which poets from the 20th century will still be read 300 years or a 1000 years from now. We probably have a good idea or think we do, but how many anthologists in 1890 or 1900 would have bet that Emily Dickinson would be acclaimed one of the two most important American poets of the 19th century. The whole idea of an anthology, as I understand it, is to offer a broad taste of what's available. Then the curious can track down more Elizabeth Bishop or Vachel Lindsay or whoever rocks their boat that morning. -----Original Message----- From: stephen russell To: NewPoetry List Sent: Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:04 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology A preview of coming attractions (from Helen V): Multicultural inclusiveness prevails: some 175 poets are represented. No century in the evolution of poetry in English ever had 175 poets worth reading, so why are we being asked to sample so many poets of little or no lasting value? Anthologists may now be extending a too general welcome. Selectivity has been condemned as ?elitism,? and a hundred flowers are invited to bloom. People who wouldn?t be able to take on the long-term commitment of a novel find a longed-for release in writing a poem. And it seems rude to denigrate the heartfelt lines of people moved to verse. It is popular to say (and it is in part true) that in literary matters tastes differ, and that every critic can be wrong. But there is a certain objectivity bestowed by the mere passage of time, and its sifting of wheat from chaff: Which of Dove?s 175 poets will have staying power, and which will seep back into the archives of sociology? --- On Thu, 11/10/11, junction at earthlink.net wrote: ========================================David Grahamgrahamd at ripon.edu Home Page:http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library:http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html========================================== -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Nov 11 11:24:10 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:24:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology In-Reply-To: <29639616.1321024749702.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <29639616.1321024749702.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: I still think it stupid to bother with the poets of the first half of the century. I must have at least ten collections each of which includes at least 95% of them, and all of which taken together cover the entire field. --Bob Penguin's goal was to produce an anthology that would displace all those others in the enormously profitable textbook market. Understood. But I almost always, as here, speak from the poet/critic?s point of view, not the merchant?s. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 11:24:31 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:24:31 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas Message-ID: <16365635.1321028671786.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Nov 11 11:34:05 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:34:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology In-Reply-To: <1321026492.25362.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1321026492.25362.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: From: stephen russell Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 10:48 AM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology Is there *any* responsible critic who argues that Plath is *both* a lesser poet and a less influential poet than Teasdale? Or, for heaven's sake, that even Diane Wakoski is better than Plath??DG Certainly no sane critic would make that argument.?SR I repeat so much because nobody?s listening. The problem isn?t that someone like Plath, who did nothing particularly different, except for the change in subject matter, is out, but THAT WHOLE SCHOOLS OF POETRY are out. --Bob (GruMMaN, Sheila, but I won?t come down too hard on you, even if that?s not the way you spell it in your first anthology) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Fri Nov 11 11:37:56 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:37:56 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology In-Reply-To: <1321026492.25362.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1321026492.25362.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4EBD4F64.3060903@louisiana.edu> I certainly wouldn't argue that Plath is a less influential poet than Teasdale. But I would argue that Teasdale (for whom I have an absolutely unaccountable affection) is underappreciated and much less available than Plath. She's more delicate (maybe preciously so) and arguably more finely nuanced (Plath paints in pretty broad strokes sometimes). I'm not arguing that Plath must be destroyed and Teasdale elevated (though that's a nice placard for someone occupying Wall Street who wants their picture on CNN), but that in a giant anthology of twentieth century poetry I'd hope there'd be room for both of them, and if one has to be left out, it would do less harm to Plath's memory (which will persist) than Teasdale;s (which is fading). Jerry On 11/11/2011 9:48 AM, stephen russell wrote: > Is there *any* responsible critic who argues that Plath is *both* a > lesser poet and a less influential poet than Teasdale? Or, for > heaven's sake, that even Diane Wakoski is better than Plath? > > Certainly no sane critic would make that argument. I got hooked on > Plath (all the way back (20th century)) ... after reading the extended > metaphor below -- > > *_Metaphors_ by > Sylvia Plath^1 * > > *I'm a riddle in nine syllables. > An elephant, a ponderous house, > A melon strolling on two tendrils. > O red fruit, ivory, fine timbers! > This loaf's big with its yeasty rising. > Money's new-minted in this fat purse. > I'm a means, a stage, a cow in calf. > I've eaten a bag of green apples, > Boarded the train there's no getting off > **.* > ** > > > > --- On *Fri, 11/11/11, David Graham-RC //* wrote: > > > From: David Graham-RC > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Friday, November 11, 2011, 10:16 AM > > Yes, in the brief excerpt I read (not sure I'm willing to pay 5 > bucks for the whole review!) Vendler expresses a common opinion: > "No century in the evolution of poetry in English ever had 175 > poets worth reading, so why are we being asked to sample so many > poets of little or no lasting value?" > > One might call that the Elite Lament, or William Logan Fallacy, > for the reason Al Maginnes notes. An anthology of any kind is, of > course, a snapshot of current taste. Most if not all anthologies > quickly seem dated, and the track record of editors getting things > "right" in terms of future taste is abysmal. Otherwise all our > anthologies of 19th Century American poetry would be stuffed with > Whittier, Bryant, Holmes, Longfellow, and even lesser lights, with > no Dickinson, Whitman, Crane, Melville, and certainly no Trumbull > Stickney. > > Nothing looks sillier faster, I would argue, than one of those > anthologies that tries to go deep, and sample more poems by fewer > poets. That's when you end up with 20 pages of Louis Untermeyer > and no Langston Hughes. Such anthologies have their place when > addressing a theme, or attempting a correction of received wisdom, > or calling attention to the unjustly neglected, and so forth. > When they attempt magisterial surveys of a whole period, they're > bound to fail, and not later but sooner. Of course, Vendler > herself famously produced exactly such a anthology, *The Harvard > Book of Contemporary American Poetry* back in the 1980s, which > includes good poems by good poets but is utterly useless as an > historical survey. > > Dove's sin, as I said before, is not in being too inclusive; it's > in leaving out poets like Plath and Ginsberg. I cannot fathom her > reasoning. It's certainly within her rights to consider, say, > Sexton a better poet than Plath. A looney opinion, to my mind, > but within an anthologist's prerogative if she wishes to present > "my favorite 20 poets" or something. But in a book which clearly > aims to go very wide rather than deep, and present a valuable > historical snapshot, what possible justification can there be for > including no Plath AT ALL, when you are going to sample poets such > as Angelina Weld Grimke, Edgar Lee Masters, and Sara Teasdale? Is > there *any* responsible critic who argues that Plath is *both* a > lesser poet and a less influential poet than Teasdale? Or, for > heaven's sake, that even Diane Wakoski is better than Plath? > > Likewise with leaving out Ginsberg. His omission alone > invalidates Dove's effort as a 20th Century survey. It would be > like a 19th C. anthology with no Dickinson. > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Nov 11, 2011, at 8:18 AM, AlMaginnes at aol.com wrote: > >> The fact is we don't know which poets from the 20th century will >> still be read 300 years or a 1000 years from now. We probably >> have a good idea or think we do, but how many anthologists in >> 1890 or 1900 would have bet that Emily Dickinson would be >> acclaimed one of the two most important American poets of the >> 19th century. The whole idea of an anthology, as I understand it, >> is to offer a broad taste of what's available. Then the curious >> can track down more Elizabeth Bishop or Vachel Lindsay or whoever >> rocks their boat that morning. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: stephen russell >> To: NewPoetry List >> Sent: Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:04 am >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology >> >> A preview of coming attractions (from Helen V): >> >> Multicultural inclusiveness prevails: some 175 poets are >> represented. No century in the evolution of poetry in English >> ever had 175 poets worth reading, so why are we being asked to >> sample so many poets of little or no lasting value? Anthologists >> may now be extending a too general welcome. Selectivity has been >> condemned as "elitism," and a hundred flowers are invited to >> bloom. People who wouldn't be able to take on the long-term >> commitment of a novel find a longed-for release in writing a >> poem. And it seems rude to denigrate the heartfelt lines of >> people moved to verse. It is popular to say (and it is in part >> true) that in literary matters tastes differ, and that every >> critic can be wrong. But there is a certain objectivity bestowed >> by the mere passage of time, and its sifting of wheat from chaff: >> Which of Dove's 175 poets will have staying power, and which will >> seep back into the archives of sociology? >> >> --- On *Thu, 11/10/11, junction at earthlink.net >> //* wrote: >> > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu Fri Nov 11 11:43:57 2011 From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:43:57 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas In-Reply-To: <16365635.1321028671786.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <16365635.1321028671786.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <013001cca091$1bec12e0$53c438a0$@ilstu.edu> Right. I?d be glad to claim it, but I daren?t. I just sent it along with a note that my former mother-in-law used to charm my 4-year old by reciting it. Bill From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of junction at earthlink.net Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 10:25 AM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Peas I haven't been following this minithread, so forgive me if I missed something. Is this being ascribed to Bill Morgan? It's anonymous, first published as such by Lear. -----Original Message----- From: Jerry McGuire Sent: Nov 11, 2011 10:24 AM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Peas I think that of the great passions bound up with poetry--power, sex, money, art--there's a lot to be said for the food poem, and this one's terrific. I love the way its persona jumps up at you. Jerry On 11/11/2011 6:47 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: I eat my peas with honey. I?ve done it all my life. It makes the peas taste funny, But it keeps them on my knife. Bill Morgan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 11:37:02 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:37:02 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology In-Reply-To: References: <1321026492.25362.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: You can say that again, Bob. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175 http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 10:34 AM, bob grumman wrote: > I repeat so much because nobody?s listening. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 11:46:45 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:46:45 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas Message-ID: <11611078.1321030006208.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu Fri Nov 11 11:41:19 2011 From: Edward.Byrne at valpo.edu (Edward Byrne) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:41:19 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology Message-ID: <4EBCFBCF0200006E000A07F6@gwdm1.valpo.edu> I received a review copy and have read through the anthology, which includes a long introduction by Dove. I am a supporter of Dove's poetry, as my critical writings in the past can verify, though I do side with Vendler on some of her complaints about the contents of the anthology. However, on the exclusion of Plath and Ginsberg, Dove (she also singles out Sterling Brown) is very specific in her introduction as she explains their absence and begs her readers to "cut her some slack." According to Dove, the fees for rights to poems by Plath and Ginsberg were astronomical, and the two were excluded for budgetary reasons: "I could not spend roughly one-fourth of the entire budget on a small fraction of the anthology, and I could not betray the trust of those who had granted me affordable fees under the sine qua non that I would not abuse their largesse by shifting the savings to satisfy extreme demands." In her shot at some publishers, Dove wishes she could have worked directly with Ginsberg, since "the legacy of the dead can be enslaved by the living." As someone who has dealt with publishers on reprint fees for an anthology, I totally sympathize with Dove on this point. --Ed -------------------------------------------------- Edward Byrne Department of English 322 Huegli Hall Valparaiso University Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu Web Page: http://edwardbyrne.shutterfly.com/ Audio Chapbook: http://wschap4.wordpress.com/ Latest Book: http://www.turningpointbooks.com/byrne-tinted.html Personal Blog: http://www.edwardbyrnepoetry.blogspot.com/ Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu VPR Web Page: http://www.valpo.edu/vpr/ VPR Editor's Blog: http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/ Co-Editor, Valparaiso Fiction Review: http://scholar.valpo.edu/vfr E-mail: vfr at valpo.edu Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 Twitter: http://twitter.com/valpopoetry Fax: (219) 464-5511 -------------------------------------------------- >>> stephen russell 11/11/11 9:48 AM >>> Is there *any* responsible critic who argues that Plath is *both* a lesser poet and a less influential poet than Teasdale? Or, for heaven's sake, that even Diane Wakoski is better than Plath? Certainly no sane critic would make that argument. I got hooked on Plath (all the way back (20th century)) ... after reading the extended metaphor below -- Metaphorsby Sylvia Plath1 I'ma riddle in nine syllables. An elephant, a ponderous house, Amelon strolling on two tendrils. O red fruit, ivory, finetimbers! This loaf's big with its yeasty rising. Money'snew-minted in this fat purse. I'm a means, a stage, a cow incalf. I've eaten a bag of green apples, Boarded the train there's no getting off. --- On Fri, 11/11/11, David Graham-RC wrote: From: David Graham-RC Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Friday, November 11, 2011, 10:16 AM Yes, in the brief excerpt I read (not sure I'm willing to pay 5 bucks for the whole review!) Vendler expresses a common opinion: "No century in the evolution of poetry in English ever had 175 poets worth reading, so why are we being asked to sample so many poets of little or no lasting value?" One might call that the Elite Lament, or William Logan Fallacy, for the reason Al Maginnes notes. An anthology of any kind is, of course, a snapshot of current taste. Most if not all anthologies quickly seem dated, and the track record of editors getting things "right" in terms of future taste is abysmal. Otherwise all our anthologies of 19th Century American poetry would be stuffed with Whittier, Bryant, Holmes, Longfellow, and even lesser lights, with no Dickinson, Whitman, Crane, Melville, and certainly no Trumbull Stickney. Nothing looks sillier faster, I would argue, than one of those anthologies that tries to go deep, and sample more poems by fewer poets. That's when you end up with 20 pages of Louis Untermeyer and no Langston Hughes. Such anthologies have their place wattention to the unjustly neglected, and so forth. When they attempt magisterial surveys of a whole period, they're bound to fail, and not later but sooner. Of course, Vendler herself famously produced exactly such a anthology, *The Harvard Book of Contemporary American Poetry* back in the 1980s, which includes good poems by good poets but is utterly useless as an historical survey. Dove's sin, as I said before, is not in being too inclusive; it's in leaving out poets like Plath and Ginsberg. I cannot fathom her reasoning. It's certainly within her rights to consider, say, Sexton a better poet than Plath. A looney opinion, to my mind, but within an anthologist's prerogative if she wishes to present "my favorite 20 poets" or something. But in a book which clearly aims to go very wide rather than deep, and present a valuable historical snapshot, what possible justification can there be for including no Plath AT ALL, when you are going to sample poets such as Angelina Weld Grimke, Edgar Lee Masters, and Sara Teasdale? Is there *any* responsible critic who argues that Plath is *both* a lesser poet and a less influential poet than Teasdale? Or, for heaven's sake, that even Diane Wakoski is better than Plath? Likewise with leaving out Ginsberg. His omission alone invalidates Dove's effort as a 20th Century survey. It would be like a 19th C. anthology with no Dickinson. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Nov 11, 2011, at 8:18 AM, AlMaginnes at aol.com wrote: The fact is we don't know which poets from the 20th century will still be read 300 years or a 1000 years from now. We probably have a good idea or think we do, but how many anthologists in 1890 or 1900 would have bet that Emily Dickinson would be acclaimed one of the two most important American poets of the 19th century. The whole idea of an anthology, as I understand it, is to offer a broad taste of what's available. Then the curious can track down more Elizabeth Bishop or Vachel Lindsay or whoever rocks their boat that morning. -----Original Message----- From: stephen russell To: NewPoetry List Sent: Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:04 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology A preview of coming attractions (from Helen V): Multicultural inclusiveness prevails: some 175 poets are represented. No century in the evolution of poetry in English ever had 175 poets worth reading, so why are we being asked to sample so many poets of little or no lasting value? Anthologists may now be extending a too general welcome. Selectivity has been condemned as ?elitism,? and a hundred flowers are invited to bloom. People who wouldn?t be able to take on the long-term commitment of a novel find a longed-for release in writing a poem. And it seems rude to denigrate the heartfelt lines of people moved to verse. It is popular to say (and it is in part true) that in literary matters tastes differ, and that every critic can be wrong. But there is a certain objectivity bestowed by the mere passage of time, and its sifting of wheat from chaff: Which of Dove?s 175 poets will have staying power, and which will seep back into the archives of sociology? --- On Thu, 11/10/11, junction at earthlink.net wrote: ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 11:52:48 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:52:48 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sheila, Sorry it's taken me a few days to get back to you. Got really busy at work again. I can see why you wd think I'm in to de-mystifying, but am not someone who believes/wants, at all, to deny the importance of nouminal/mystical experiences -- I only question the stuff done with such experiences: taking such experiences and then pretending to know things we don't/can't know (stories/cosmologies about the supposed transcendental, the poet as a special being who utters precious speech, etc), rather than using those experiences to better all relationships humans are involved in (human and human/animal). What most often happens, it seems, is these experiences -- which are in fact common -- are taken to be special and belonging to certain persons. Just lectured yesterday on chpt 2 of Bourdieu's _The Field of Cultural Production_, in which he examines, in part, this very issue wrt the fetish of "transgressive" artists. "I think I have less faith than you by far in the ability of groups of people to analyze anything altogether objectively and learn from it...." I get why you wd write that! But I am not a pollyanna, by any means -- but I know we've done a pretty good job overall at doing this, to the extent that we forget what it was like not so long ago. I really wd urge anyone curious about this to read Pinker's _The Better Angels of Our Nature: How Violence Has Declined_. So "anything" is, for me, an overstatement. And I am persuaded by Pinker's thesis. Humans are very good at organizing around what they care about. We just need to expand the circle of what we care about and carefully apply ourselves to that. Lot of societies do this better than the US: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ7LzE3u7Bw I have not read Kenzaboro Oe, no. But will add him to the already amazing list you've suggested so far (and which I *will* follow up on). The meeting you describe about XLH in the hospital was hard to read about. And I understand your wariness better now, as such a meeting is harrowing just to read about. "So who am I to say you are not right about the slaughter of the animals?" And: "Yet I also know that there are many right-to-lifers I tend to strenuously disagree with who feel the same about the hordes of the unborn." And in reading that I am reminded of the recent case in Mississippi attempting to extend "personhood" to fertilized eggs. So, insofar as both the Mississippi evangelicals and animals rights movements are both trying to persuade us of the value of widening the circle of empathy to include others, there are homologies, yes. The difference is of course that one side is talking about potential beings only, the colonization of the female body, the removal of bodily and mental sovereignty from any pregnant woman -- and the gripping of the future, and all future beings, as an area of law; and as such, such a project is eugenicist. The other is about precisely the reduction of eugenics, to which animals are already subject, and the abrogation of the eugenic and instrumentalized treatment of all beings, with a specific focus on according sovereignty to the present beings already here. So, one increases instrumentalization of beings, and one seeks to reduce it. On this I totally agree: "I don't disagree with you about the idea that phenomena of mind can be studied, nor that this should not be in some degree a purpose of art. I think the rub comes in around that notion of beauty/truth--too often ethical purposes mean we don't or don't dare or forget how to tell the whole story." Have just been discussing the debate between Richard Posner and Martha Nussbaum on this point in one class and discussing Marcia Homiak's article on Aristotelian ethics and art in "Virtue and the Skills of Ordinary Life" and it occurred to me at some point yesterday that probably one of the reasons Posner and others so insist on a separation between aesthetics and ethics is that they are concerned we not, per Aristotle, instrumentalize aesthetics. It should not be a means to an end, but an end in itself. A has this distinction between goal-oriented activities ("doing") versus activities that are a pleasure in themselves ("activity") -- with the latter being, overall, the key to both an ethical life and an aesthetic life: extending "activity" as much as possible is key to flourishing. Posner is NOT an Aristotelian. But of course A abrogates that concern -- in that he speaks of the aesthetic as the exercise of skills (both in the artist and in the recipient) that are the basis of virtue, so that "beauty" for him is "arete" (excellence in action), not as a thing/artifact to be fetishized (beauty). The Homiak is a really neat article. For Aristotle, then, beauty is truly a verb. :) Precisely because he refuses to instrumentalize the good: the good is its own pleasure. In the now and the here. Not in some Mississipian future nestled inside women's bodies. I think this is hard, in a Kantian world, to understand. When people think "ethics" they think duty and instrumentalization and lack of enjoyment. And OH!!!: thank you for the Spahr suggestion. I've read her _This Connection of Everyone with Lungs_ and two of her other shorter chapbooks -- and really enjoy her work, and will look into including the one you suggest! Thank you! Gabe (hope I matched your shorter email!). :) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 11:52:54 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:52:54 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology Message-ID: <19112416.1321030374743.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Nov 11 11:56:24 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham-RC) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:56:24 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re Dove's anthology In-Reply-To: <4EBCFBCF0200006E000A07F6@gwdm1.valpo.edu> References: <4EBCFBCF0200006E000A07F6@gwdm1.valpo.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for this clarification, Ed. Doesn't change my view of the anthology a bit, but corrects my opinion of Dove. In a long-stalled anthology project of my own, my co-editor & I had long talks about this subject, and specifically what to do if a press like Norton insisted on playing hardball with reprint fees, as it seems they often do. My own opinion was that I would reluctantly leave out someone like Adrienne Rich rather than pay extortionate fees. But our anthology was not an historical survey, and by design was leaving out all sorts of notable poets, including many that I love. The horror of permissions is one reason our project stalled. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Nov 11, 2011, at 10:41 AM, Edward Byrne wrote: > I received a review copy and have read through the anthology, which includes a long introduction by Dove. I am a supporter of Dove's poetry, as my critical writings in the past can verify, though I do side with Vendler on some of her complaints about the contents of the anthology. > > However, on the exclusion of Plath and Ginsberg, Dove (she also singles out Sterling Brown) is very specific in her introduction as she explains their absence and begs her readers to "cut her some slack." According to Dove, the fees for rights to poems by Plath and Ginsberg were astronomical, and the two were excluded for budgetary reasons: "I could not spend roughly one-fourth of the entire budget on a small fraction of the anthology, and I could not betray the trust of those who had granted me affordable fees under the sine qua non that I would not abuse their largesse by shifting the savings to satisfy extreme demands." In her shot at some publishers, Dove wishes she could have worked directly with Ginsberg, since "the legacy of the dead can be enslaved by the living." As someone who has dealt with publishers on reprint fees for an anthology, I totally sympathize with Dove on this point. > > --Ed > > > -------------------------------------------------- > ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tomasocarthaigh at yahoo.com Fri Nov 11 12:05:16 2011 From: tomasocarthaigh at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Tom=E1s_=D3_C=E1rthaigh?=) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 09:05:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] War Poetry for 11/11/11 Message-ID: <1321031116.5602.YahooMailClassic@web161603.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Too many Irish lost their lives in wars in the past centruy, and many of the diaspora are in armies right across the world fighting for varius nations. Let us remeber them, and the forcefully forgotton - those who faught for armies for whom it is taboo to remeber - the UK army in WWII and also the axis armies in the same period. http://writingsinrhyme.com/War_Poems.php 11/11/11 - Lest we Forget Irishmen at War are commemmorated in the War Poems section, just launched online where the names of the unknown are recorded, those whose sacrifices made history, but whose names never reached the history books, until now. "a person with a good book is never alone... a writer until they've written one is never at peace" - www.writingsinrhyme.com??::: Add me on Facebook ::: My YouTube Videos? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Fri Nov 11 12:06:09 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:06:09 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas In-Reply-To: <11611078.1321030006208.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <11611078.1321030006208.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4EBD5601.1050109@louisiana.edu> I spent part of this morning trying to find a couple of great recipe poems written by the irrepressible Bill Sylvester (but I don't have his books with me) some years ago. As for me, when I quit smoking (New Year's Day, 1970) I immediately started to put on weight. So I obsessed myself onto a diet. It's pretty funny (to me, the only one who cares) how loaded my poems of that time became with food imagery, most of it unconscious. And I once wrote a burrito poem for a friend who was commissioned (yes, there was money involved) to read her poems at the opening of a Mexican restaurant. Here's another I wrote for a pastry-chef friend of mine (and if you don't have a pastry-chef friend, you don't know what you're missing): Life in the Dessert Crooning to "those graham cracker eyes." And marzipan to grease the zippers. For real, chocolate bread pudding that, when sparrows look down and see its crumbs, their arteries seize up and they crash along the highway. We adore those foodstuffs, lardered in the sinews, frozen in the heart, gone stale in our brains. One could write poems to them on billboards: Get your honey here, sugar pie! Oh my peach, my tangerine, my mango pudding! Open your oven door, roll me those biscuits! And if we must part, let's stuff ourselves first, then give the leftovers to sweet charity! On 11/11/2011 10:46 AM, junction at earthlink.net wrote: > Sorry Bill. > > I love eating, and I'm a good cook, but I don't think I've ever > written a food poem. It would be an interesting thread, though I > expect that it would offend non-carnivores. > > Best, > > Mark > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Morgan > Sent: Nov 11, 2011 11:43 AM > To: 'NewPoetry List' > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Peas > > Right. I'd be glad to claim it, but I daren't. I just sent it > along with a note that my former mother-in-law used to charm my > 4-year old by reciting it. > > Bill > > *From:*new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] *On Behalf Of > *junction at earthlink.net > *Sent:* Friday, November 11, 2011 10:25 AM > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Peas > > I haven't been following this minithread, so forgive me if I > missed something. Is this being ascribed to Bill Morgan? It's > anonymous, first published as such by Lear. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jerry McGuire > Sent: Nov 11, 2011 10:24 AM > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Peas > > I think that of the great passions bound up with poetry--power, > sex, money, art--there's a lot to be said for the food poem, and > this one's terrific. I love the way its persona jumps up at you. > > Jerry > > On 11/11/2011 6:47 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > I eat my peas with honey. > > I've done it all my life. > > It makes the peas taste funny, > > But it keeps them on my knife. > > Bill Morgan > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 12:22:41 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 12:22:41 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re Dove's anthology Message-ID: <449432.1321032161680.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 12:24:22 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:24:22 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <8CE6C85CCD2F281-1B6C-16E06@web-mmc-m09.sysops.aol.com> References: <1464535.1320768619912.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <8CE6C85CCD2F281-1B6C-16E06@web-mmc-m09.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Hi Tony! Hi Mark, Yes to this: "The caveat is that conditions of scarcity continue to generate mass violence, and in large parts of the world we can expect more of those as more environments are stressed by climate change." Which is why those of us in wealthy countries really work to make better decisions about how we use resources and into which projects we put funding abroad. This is interesting to me: "Once again, where we disagree is on the nature and responsibility of art, which after all is what brings us to this list. There's a famous talmudic statement, 'Don't make the torah your axe.' Don't use it for one's personal platform. We've seen where this too often has taken us in the past and too often still does. I don't doubt for a second that human societies are still capable of burning 'counterproductive' art and throwing the artists on the pyre for good measure. And there's the question of how this idea of helpful art jibes with art as the measure of what remains unknown." I think this is interesting for the very reasons I broached that issue of instrumentalizing art (in my last to Sheila). I think it's a cognitive error that gives rise to this notion that the aesthetic and the ethical are separate and its counterpart fear that flourishing in the Aristotelian sense (and Aristotle seems to be someone modern neuroethicists keep coming back to) leads to didactic art. An ethical project -- especially in a Levinasian sense -- can't be a solipsistic project. And I wonder how much that aphorism about the Talmud cd a little algorithm for fatalism. But not to quibble (beyond that): I take your point. "Right. Sacralize bad--but learn from, if we choose, good." -- yes, seems like a good way forward. Hey, we agree on something! :) Gabe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Fri Nov 11 11:28:29 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:28:29 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology In-Reply-To: References: <1321019608.11965.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8CE6E93FCCEFDA9-15E4-141CF@Webmail-m125.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4EBD4D2D.5080006@louisiana.edu> An interesting predicament for this list--how to respond when a critic you despise trashes a book you despise. I still haven't looked at the Dove anthology, though as I said before, it looks dull enough to me. But I think of putting together an anthology as a project involving more than one motive. (One might want to make some money, establish an ideological perspective, gather together one's friends, build one's reputation, promote some idea, repudiate earlier anthologies or one specially influential one, provide a snapshot of a local moment or a global one, etc.) For me the question worth considering is what _theory_ seems to guide the selection--and I mean, what complex of motivations that combines ideas about poetic value (must it have "lasting" value, for instance, and if so, what counts as "lasting"?) with ideas about poetic reading (why and how do people read poems?) and ideas about the practical apparatus of publication (what kind of readership would count as "success"?). Lots of anthologies are thematic, for instance, and assume a readership of persons who may be attracted both to their theme and to a poetic expression of it. But one person's anthology of, say, valentine poems may differ radically from another's because their ideas about poetic value differ. And one may aspire to circulate the (mimeographed?) anthology to friends and family, while another feels the theme connects with universal values and requires a national publisher/distribution system--and the poems will then be affected by that decision as well. I don't despise Vendler. She's very smart and widely read, and though her tastes and her motives differ from mine (she has an international reputation to uphold as a spokesperson for poetry as a high art form, and I can basically talk about what I like) I've found her often to offer perspectives that I can learn from. I enjoyed her book on different styles of thinking in Pope, Whitman, Dickinson, and Yeats. I didn't feel that her execution was specially good, but it was a rigorous idea and helped me hone my own thinking about those poets. And her anthology/critique of Dickinson (_Dickinson: Selected poems and Commentaries_) was a good idea, though fustian and perversely noncommittal in its execution (clearly she intended it to be a "teaching tool" for the kinds of baffled people who encounter Dickinson in their sophomore survey or adult reading group). The passion that I associate with poetic value (Dickinson: "If I feel physically as if the /top of my head/ were taken off") seems lacking. She likes to write about poetry whose value, for me, is mostly analytical, while I hate to be bothered by poetry that doesn't tickle or tear me significantly. As to Dove's anthology, its T of C and the comments here by people who are better acquainted with it suggest it's motivated by ideas of poetic value emerging from the canonical battles of the sixties, seventies, and eighties, which resulted in everyone's being made aware that there were forgotten, neglected, and under-appreciated poets left out of nearly _all_ the old anthologies (but there _are_ old anthologies that were quite eccentric, in which you can encounter poets and poetic values that have otherwise disappeared). In what's certainly an over-reaction, gender, race, sexual preference, and social class (though perhaps less of the latter) became elevated to the status of poetic values in themselves: to write out of a history of systematic repression or in an idiom that was under-appreciated because outside the mainstream (while not being demonstrably avant-garde) meant that one's chances of winding up in someone's anthology were improved. (The apparatus of publication/distribution didn't so much expand as shift to accommodate what was hoped to be the opening of new markets, or a new dimension of old markets for poetry.) It looks to me as if this model of poetic value, which strikes me as more sociological (and consequently both ideological and analytical) than passionate, has softened into a tired received opinion that's guiding Dove's choices. I wish she were motivated by money (not a problem for her, I think), since, as Dr. Johnson pointed out, that's the "purest" motivation for writing--and, I suspect, for editing. One at least would be driven to seek out a new product someone might actually want. Jerry On 11/11/2011 9:16 AM, David Graham-RC wrote: > Yes, in the brief excerpt I read (not sure I'm willing to pay 5 bucks > for the whole review!) Vendler expresses a common opinion: "No > century in the evolution of poetry in English ever had 175 poets worth > reading, so why are we being asked to sample so many poets of little > or no lasting value?" > > One might call that the Elite Lament, or William Logan Fallacy, for > the reason Al Maginnes notes. An anthology of any kind is, of course, > a snapshot of current taste. Most if not all anthologies quickly seem > dated, and the track record of editors getting things "right" in terms > of future taste is abysmal. Otherwise all our anthologies of 19th > Century American poetry would be stuffed with Whittier, Bryant, > Holmes, Longfellow, and even lesser lights, with no Dickinson, > Whitman, Crane, Melville, and certainly no Trumbull Stickney. > > Nothing looks sillier faster, I would argue, than one of those > anthologies that tries to go deep, and sample more poems by fewer > poets. That's when you end up with 20 pages of Louis Untermeyer and > no Langston Hughes. Such anthologies have their place when addressing > a theme, or attempting a correction of received wisdom, or calling > attention to the unjustly neglected, and so forth. When they attempt > magisterial surveys of a whole period, they're bound to fail, and not > later but sooner. Of course, Vendler herself famously produced > exactly such a anthology, *The Harvard Book of Contemporary American > Poetry* back in the 1980s, which includes good poems by good poets but > is utterly useless as an historical survey. > > Dove's sin, as I said before, is not in being too inclusive; it's in > leaving out poets like Plath and Ginsberg. I cannot fathom her > reasoning. It's certainly within her rights to consider, say, Sexton > a better poet than Plath. A looney opinion, to my mind, but within an > anthologist's prerogative if she wishes to present "my favorite 20 > poets" or something. But in a book which clearly aims to go very wide > rather than deep, and present a valuable historical snapshot, what > possible justification can there be for including no Plath AT ALL, > when you are going to sample poets such as Angelina Weld Grimke, Edgar > Lee Masters, and Sara Teasdale? Is there *any* responsible critic who > argues that Plath is *both* a lesser poet and a less influential poet > than Teasdale? Or, for heaven's sake, that even Diane Wakoski is > better than Plath? > > Likewise with leaving out Ginsberg. His omission alone invalidates > Dove's effort as a 20th Century survey. It would be like a 19th C. > anthology with no Dickinson. > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Nov 11, 2011, at 8:18 AM, AlMaginnes at aol.com > wrote: > >> The fact is we don't know which poets from the 20th century will >> still be read 300 years or a 1000 years from now. We probably have a >> good idea or think we do, but how many anthologists in 1890 or 1900 >> would have bet that Emily Dickinson would be acclaimed one of the two >> most important American poets of the 19th century. The whole idea of >> an anthology, as I understand it, is to offer a broad taste of what's >> available. Then the curious can track down more Elizabeth Bishop or >> Vachel Lindsay or whoever rocks their boat that morning. >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: stephen russell > > >> To: NewPoetry List > > >> Sent: Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:04 am >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology >> >> A preview of coming attractions (from Helen V): >> >> Multicultural inclusiveness prevails: some 175 poets are represented. >> No century in the evolution of poetry in English ever had 175 poets >> worth reading, so why are we being asked to sample so many poets of >> little or no lasting value? Anthologists may now be extending a too >> general welcome. Selectivity has been condemned as "elitism," and a >> hundred flowers are invited to bloom. People who wouldn't be able to >> take on the long-term commitment of a novel find a longed-for release >> in writing a poem. And it seems rude to denigrate the heartfelt lines >> of people moved to verse. It is popular to say (and it is in part >> true) that in literary matters tastes differ, and that every critic >> can be wrong. But there is a certain objectivity bestowed by the mere >> passage of time, and its sifting of wheat from chaff: Which of Dove's >> 175 poets will have staying power, and which will seep back into the >> archives of sociology? >> >> --- On *Thu, 11/10/11, junction at earthlink.net >> /> >/* wrote: >> > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 12:37:17 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 18:37:17 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas In-Reply-To: <4EBD5601.1050109@louisiana.edu> References: <11611078.1321030006208.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <4EBD5601.1050109@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: This is funny... On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 6:06 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: > I spent part of this morning trying to find a couple of great recipe > poems written by the irrepressible Bill Sylvester (but I don't have his > books with me) some years ago. As for me, when I quit smoking (New Year's > Day, 1970) I immediately started to put on weight. So I obsessed myself > onto a diet. It's pretty funny (to me, the only one who cares) how loaded > my poems of that time became with food imagery, most of it unconscious. And > I once wrote a burrito poem for a friend who was commissioned (yes, there > was money involved) to read her poems at the opening of a Mexican > restaurant. Here's another I wrote for a pastry-chef friend of mine (and if > you don't have a pastry-chef friend, you don't know what you're missing): > > > Life in the Dessert > **** > > > Crooning to ?those graham cracker eyes.?**** > > And marzipan to grease the zippers.**** > > For real, chocolate bread pudding that,**** > > when sparrows look down and see its crumbs,**** > > their arteries seize up and they crash**** > > along the highway. We adore**** > > those foodstuffs, lardered in the sinews,**** > > frozen in the heart, gone stale**** > > in our brains. One could write**** > > poems to them on billboards:**** > > Get your honey here, sugar pie!**** > > Oh my peach, my tangerine, my mango**** > > pudding! Open your oven door, roll me**** > > those biscuits! And if we must part,**** > > let?s stuff ourselves first, then**** > > give the leftovers to sweet charity!**** > > **** > > > > On 11/11/2011 10:46 AM, junction at earthlink.net wrote: > > Sorry Bill. > > I love eating, and I'm a good cook, but I don't think I've ever written a > food poem. It would be an interesting thread, though I expect that it would > offend non-carnivores. > > Best, > > Mark > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bill Morgan ** > Sent: Nov 11, 2011 11:43 AM > To: 'NewPoetry List' ** > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Peas > > ******** **** ** ********** ** ** ************************ > > Right. I?d be glad to claim it, but I daren?t. I just sent it along with > a note that my former mother-in-law used to charm my 4-year old by reciting > it.**** > > ** ** > > Bill**** > > ** ** > > *From:* new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [ > mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] > *On Behalf Of *junction at earthlink.net > *Sent:* Friday, November 11, 2011 10:25 AM > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Peas**** > > ** ** > > I haven't been following this minithread, so forgive me if I missed > something. Is this being ascribed to Bill Morgan? It's anonymous, first > published as such by Lear.**** > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jerry McGuire > Sent: Nov 11, 2011 10:24 AM > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Peas > > I think that of the great passions bound up with poetry--power, sex, > money, art--there's a lot to be said for the food poem, and this one's > terrific. I love the way its persona jumps up at you. > > Jerry > > On 11/11/2011 6:47 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: **** > > I eat my peas with honey.**** > > I?ve done it all my life.**** > > It makes the peas taste funny,**** > > But it keeps them on my knife.**** > > **** > > Bill Morgan**** > > **** > ******** > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 12:39:48 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 12:39:48 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <28584801.1321033189475.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patriciafanderson at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 12:44:31 2011 From: patriciafanderson at gmail.com (Patricia F Anderson) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 12:44:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas In-Reply-To: <4EBD5601.1050109@louisiana.edu> References: <11611078.1321030006208.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <4EBD5601.1050109@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: I was talking about food and recipe poems with JJ Jacobson, who is the culinary curator of the University of Michigan Clements Library. In that collection reside an astonishing number of verse cookbooks, which was a very popular way to help people remember the recipes and addressing issues of literacy during the 1800s. JJ is also a poet, and we've been collecting and sharing food / recipe / cooking poems, and there are already existing published collections as well. On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: > I spent part of this morning trying to find a couple of great recipe poems > written by the irrepressible Bill Sylvester (but I don't have his books with > me) some years ago. As for me, when I quit smoking (New Year's Day, 1970) I > immediately started to put on weight. So I obsessed myself onto a diet. It's > pretty funny (to me, the only one who cares) how loaded my poems of that > time became with food imagery, most of it unconscious. And I once wrote a > burrito poem for a friend who was commissioned (yes, there was money > involved) to read her poems at the opening of a Mexican restaurant. Here's > another I wrote for a pastry-chef friend of mine (and if you don't have a > pastry-chef friend, you don't know what you're missing): > > > > On 11/11/2011 10:46 AM, junction at earthlink.net wrote: > > Sorry Bill. > > I love eating, and I'm a good cook, but I don't think I've ever written a > food poem. It would be an interesting thread, though I expect that it would > offend non-carnivores. > > Best, > > Mark > -- Patricia Anderson / SL: Perplexity Peccable pfa at umich.edu OR patriciafanderson at gmail.com Emerging Technologies Librarian, Health Sciences Libraries, University of Michigan, 1135 East Catherine, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 "Google can give you 1,000 answers to your question. A librarian will give you the right one." Anonymous. From junction at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 12:49:42 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 12:49:42 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas Message-ID: <28088602.1321033783008.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Citation, please? -----Original Message----- >From: Patricia F Anderson >Sent: Nov 11, 2011 12:44 PM >To: NewPoetry List >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Peas > >I was talking about food and recipe poems with JJ Jacobson, who is the >culinary curator of the University of Michigan Clements Library. In >that collection reside an astonishing number of verse cookbooks, which >was a very popular way to help people remember the recipes and >addressing issues of literacy during the 1800s. JJ is also a poet, and >we've been collecting and sharing food / recipe / cooking poems, and >there are already existing published collections as well. > >On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: >> I spent part of this morning trying to find a couple of great recipe poems >> written by the irrepressible Bill Sylvester (but I don't have his books with >> me) some years ago. As for me, when I quit smoking (New Year's Day, 1970) I >> immediately started to put on weight. So I obsessed myself onto a diet. It's >> pretty funny (to me, the only one who cares) how loaded my poems of that >> time became with food imagery, most of it unconscious. And I once wrote a >> burrito poem for a friend who was commissioned (yes, there was money >> involved) to read her poems at the opening of a Mexican restaurant. Here's >> another I wrote for a pastry-chef friend of mine (and if you don't have a >> pastry-chef friend, you don't know what you're missing): >> >> >> >> On 11/11/2011 10:46 AM, junction at earthlink.net wrote: >> >> Sorry Bill. >> >> I love eating, and I'm a good cook, but I don't think I've ever written a >> food poem. It would be an interesting thread, though I expect that it would >> offend non-carnivores. >> >> Best, >> >> Mark >> > > > >-- >Patricia Anderson / SL: Perplexity Peccable >pfa at umich.edu OR patriciafanderson at gmail.com >Emerging Technologies Librarian, Health Sciences Libraries, University >of Michigan, 1135 East Catherine, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 >"Google can give you 1,000 answers to your question. A librarian will >give you the right one." Anonymous. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From junction at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 12:52:22 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 12:52:22 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] peas Message-ID: <17278600.1321033942682.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Here's Henry Fielding, tongue firmly in cheek. They didn't know about cholesterol back then. When mighty Roast Beef was the Englishman's food, It ennobled our brains and enriched our blood. Our soldiers were brave and our courtiers were good Oh! the Roast Beef of old England, And old English Roast Beef! But since we have learnt from all-vapouring France To eat their ragouts as well as to dance, We're fed up with nothing but vain complaisance Oh! the Roast Beef of Old England, And old English Roast Beef! Our fathers of old were robust, stout, and strong, And kept open house, with good cheer all day long, Which made their plump tenants rejoice in this song-- Oh! The Roast Beef of old England, And old English Roast Beef! But now we are dwindled to, what shall I name? A sneaking poor race, half-begotten and tame, Who sully the honours that once shone in fame. Oh! the Roast Beef of Old England, And old English Roast Beef! When good Queen Elizabeth sat on the throne, Ere coffee, or tea, or such slip-slops were known, The world was in terror if e'er she did frown. Oh! The Roast Beef of old England, And old English Roast Beef! In those days, if Fleets did presume on the Main, They seldom, or never, return'd back again, As witness, the Vaunting Armada of Spain. Oh! The Roast Beef of Old England, And old English Roast Beef! Oh then we had stomachs to eat and to fight And when wrongs were cooking to do ourselves right. But now we're a . . . I could, but goodnight! Oh! the Roast Beef of Old England, And old English Roast Beef! From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Fri Nov 11 12:52:43 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 11:52:43 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas In-Reply-To: References: <11611078.1321030006208.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <4EBD5601.1050109@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <4EBD60EB.8020802@louisiana.edu> How about a couple of examples, Patricia? (I'd love a recipe for foccacia in terza rima, or blank verse instructions for Spotted Dick.) Jerry On 11/11/2011 11:44 AM, Patricia F Anderson wrote: > I was talking about food and recipe poems with JJ Jacobson, who is the > culinary curator of the University of Michigan Clements Library. In > that collection reside an astonishing number of verse cookbooks, which > was a very popular way to help people remember the recipes and > addressing issues of literacy during the 1800s. JJ is also a poet, and > we've been collecting and sharing food / recipe / cooking poems, and > there are already existing published collections as well. > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: >> I spent part of this morning trying to find a couple of great recipe poems >> written by the irrepressible Bill Sylvester (but I don't have his books with >> me) some years ago. As for me, when I quit smoking (New Year's Day, 1970) I >> immediately started to put on weight. So I obsessed myself onto a diet. It's >> pretty funny (to me, the only one who cares) how loaded my poems of that >> time became with food imagery, most of it unconscious. And I once wrote a >> burrito poem for a friend who was commissioned (yes, there was money >> involved) to read her poems at the opening of a Mexican restaurant. Here's >> another I wrote for a pastry-chef friend of mine (and if you don't have a >> pastry-chef friend, you don't know what you're missing): >> >> >> >> On 11/11/2011 10:46 AM, junction at earthlink.net wrote: >> >> Sorry Bill. >> >> I love eating, and I'm a good cook, but I don't think I've ever written a >> food poem. It would be an interesting thread, though I expect that it would >> offend non-carnivores. >> >> Best, >> >> Mark >> > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Fri Nov 11 12:56:30 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 17:56:30 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <28584801.1321033189475.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <28584801.1321033189475.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Golly--Mark--I like what you're saying, but I have never yet seen a fox on the streets of Glasgow, though maybe out in Newton Mearns! S. Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 12:39:48 -0500 From: junction at earthlink.net To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Yup, we do. Though I don't know how avoiding the problem while applying the Aristotelian would work in practice. Which is why those of us in wealthy countries really work to make better decisions about how we use resources and into which projects we put funding abroad. Wealth thus far hasn't translated into a lot of wisdom or will, at least in the US. Environmental issues beyond the clean air act (and maybe not even that) won't be issues in the next election. Consistent polling of voters places environmental concerns low in the list of concerns. There are also those devils in the details. Humans slaughter other predators and then make rules limiting hunting of prey animals, with disastrous results. There are even situations in which removing humans as predators creates unforeseen problems. Farmers in Britain complain about the proliferation of foxes since the ban on fox hunts. The proliferation of foxes has also unbalanced the urban environment, to what effect we don't yet knowe, though we can assume there'll be a reduction of rodent and bird populations. Though it's charming to see foxes on the streets of Glasgow, as one can any evening. Not so charming when they threaten joggers in the parks (as they have my son) who stray too close to dens invisible to the runners. It's not a question of returning to an environment where it's laissez faire for all species but ours. Complex issues. Made more complex by the great displacements of climate change. Best, Mark -----Original Message----- From: gabriel gudding Sent: Nov 11, 2011 12:24 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Hi Tony! Hi Mark, Yes to this: "The caveat is that conditions of scarcity continue to generate mass violence, and in large parts of the world we can expect more of those as more environments are stressed by climate change." Which is why those of us in wealthy countries really work to make better decisions about how we use resources and into which projects we put funding abroad. This is interesting to me: "Once again, where we disagree is on the nature and responsibility of art, which after all is what brings us to this list. There's a famous talmudic statement, 'Don't make the torah your axe.' Don't use it for one's personal platform. We've seen where this too often has taken us in the past and too often still does. I don't doubt for a second that human societies are still capable of burning 'counterproductive' art and throwing the artists on the pyre for good measure. And there's the question of how this idea of helpful art jibes with art as the measure of what remains unknown." I think this is interesting for the very reasons I broached that issue of instrumentalizing art (in my last to Sheila). I think it's a cognitive error that gives rise to this notion that the aesthetic and the ethical are separate and its counterpart fear that flourishing in the Aristotelian sense (and Aristotle seems to be someone modern neuroethicists keep coming back to) leads to didactic art. An ethical project -- especially in a Levinasian sense -- can't be a solipsistic project. And I wonder how much that aphorism about the Talmud cd a little algorithm for fatalism. But not to quibble (beyond that): I take your point. "Right. Sacralize bad--but learn from, if we choose, good." -- yes, seems like a good way forward. Hey, we agree on something! :) Gabe _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 13:26:19 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 13:26:19 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <25315985.1321035979510.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 13:28:54 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:28:54 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Chapbooks, J/J Hastain, Anne Bauer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A decision has been reached on the Transcontinental Award, have been packing books with the announcement for the last few days, all will be in the mail by Monday. A public announcement will be in a few weeks once all the contestants know who the winner is. As for publications, two new chapbooks from Pavement Saw Press are available (ok, they have been out nearly three months but wanted to mention them here), these are the split winners of the chapbook award from the last day of 2010. Both excellent work, both in entirely different writing styles. Each published in a limited edition of 400. Cost: $7 plus $2 postage. Only available directly through us (unless you know the author!). Either use the paypal link or the website page at the bottom of each title. All for Fall-- j/j hastain *extant shamanisms* [image: j/j hastain] Pavement Saw Press Chapbook Series Winner of the 2010-11 Chapbook Award ISBN 978-1-886350-18-2 40 pages, saddle stapled, 2011 $7.00 Some of these poems / poem images first appeared in Elective Affinities and Sous Les Paves. j/j hastain lives in Colorado, USA with hir beloved. j/j is the author of the numerous full-length, cross-genre works such as: asymptotic lover // thermodynamic vents (BlazeVox Books), our bodies as beauty inducers (Rebel Satori Press), we in my Trans (JMS Books LLC), autobiography of my gender (Moria), ulterior eden (Otoliths) as well as many chapbooks and artist's books. A new collaboration with poet-artist Marthe Reed, is forthcoming from Dusie 6. j/j's writing has appeared in numerous journals including MiPoesia, Fact-Simile, Trickhouse, Vlak, Unlikely Stories, The Offending Adam, Eccolinguistics and Kelsey. In 2011 j/j's we in my Trans was nominated for the Stonewall Book Award. j/j is an elective affinities participant, a member of Dusie kollektiv and a regular contributor to Sous Les Paves. ------------------------------------------- yes each gesture for the sake of beveling for the ingot restitutions like dried figs in the rain or collages left on suburban lawns because there is a promontory where we are turning our prominent sounds into ethereal tones moans oh anomaly but so marrow-ly http://www.pavementsaw.org/chapbook_pages/extantshamanisms.htm -------------------------------- Anne Bauer *Fine Absence * Pavement Saw Press Chapbook Series Winner of the 2010-11 Chapbook Award ISBN 978-1-886350-17-5 28 pages, saddle stapled, 2011 $7.00 These poems first appeared in Front Range Review, Stone's Throw and Whitefish Review. Anne Bauer lives in Montana with her husband, their two kids and a dog named Daisy. She teaches writing at the college level, writes grants, and researches campaign contributions for a non-profit when not following her interest in ethno-botany. Her poems, short fiction and non-fiction have appeared in Stone's Throw, Guideposts, Front Range Review, flashquake, Literary Mama, Pindeldyboz, Kaleidowhirl, Staccato, Whitefish Review, and others. --------------- Free Sample Poem --------------- Sweat My dad stopped bathing three years before we found him gaping at eternity on the basement floor. Every morning alcohol leached from his cells, too long - five hours - deprived of a drink. Every day a new layer of reek and need sloughed through the house like a cigarette in a closed room until Dad pervaded carpet, walls, drapes, and coated the TV screen. At the end of a visit your hands smelled of cheese neglected behind the steam radiator. The day they put the sheet on him we girls scrubbed that house from cracked plaster ceiling to carved wooden baseboards. We laundered and steamed and bleached, pitched with regret the vinyl chair with cushions dented and blackened in the shape of his body, but parts of Dad twined with the house years ago. http://www.pavementsaw.org/chapbook_pages/fineabsence.htm Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press 321 Empire Street Montpelier OH 43543 http://pavementsaw.org Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 Facebook Page http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=25857379734&ref=ts -- If you do not want to receive any more newsletters, this link To update your preferences and to unsubscribe visit this link Forward a Message to Someone this link [image: Powered by PHPlist2.10.3, © tincan ltd] -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 2408 bytes Desc: not available URL: From patriciafanderson at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 13:32:13 2011 From: patriciafanderson at gmail.com (Patricia F Anderson) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 13:32:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas In-Reply-To: <4EBD60EB.8020802@louisiana.edu> References: <11611078.1321030006208.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <4EBD5601.1050109@louisiana.edu> <4EBD60EB.8020802@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: Jerry, you'll probably have to write your own terza rima, however I can supply a few other examples. Here is a blogpost from JJ on the topic. - Poetical Cookbook http://mirlyn.lib.umich.edu/Record/004613796 Poetical Cook-Book (book): Poetical Cookbook (app): Another blogpost, differently authored: Two large potatoes, passed through kitchen sieve, Unwonted softness to the salad give; Of mordant mustard add a single spoon, Distrust the condiment that bites so soon; But deem it not, though man of herbs, a fault, To add a double quantity of salt; Three times the spoon with oil of Lucca crown, And once with vinegar, procured from town; True flavor needs it, and your poet begs The pounded yellow of two well-boiled eggs; Let onion atoms lurk within the bowl, And, scarce suspected, animate the whole; And lastly, on the flavored compound toss A magic teaspoon of anchovy sauce. Then, though green turtle fail, through ven'son's tough, And ham and turkey are not boiled enough, Serenely full, the epicure may say, "Fate cannot harm me, I have dined to-day!" - Reverend Sidney Smith of the late 18th century England A blog of recipes in verse: A rustic baked potato recipe poem: A couple of my own. Corn Chowder: Creation of Meatloaf: Other poem/cookbooks. Enjoy! - Patricia On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:52 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: > How about a couple of examples, Patricia? (I'd love a recipe for foccacia in > terza rima, or blank verse instructions for Spotted Dick.) > > Jerry > > On 11/11/2011 11:44 AM, Patricia F Anderson wrote: > > I was talking about food and recipe poems with JJ Jacobson, who is the > culinary curator of the University of Michigan Clements Library. In > that collection reside an astonishing number of verse cookbooks, which > was a very popular way to help people remember the recipes and > addressing issues of literacy during the 1800s. JJ is also a poet, and > we've been collecting and sharing food / recipe / cooking poems, and > there are already existing published collections as well. > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Jerry McGuire > wrote: > > I spent part of this morning trying to find a couple of great recipe poems > written by the irrepressible Bill Sylvester (but I don't have his books with > me) some years ago. As for me, when I quit smoking (New Year's Day, 1970) I > immediately started to put on weight. So I obsessed myself onto a diet. It's > pretty funny (to me, the only one who cares) how loaded my poems of that > time became with food imagery, most of it unconscious. And I once wrote a > burrito poem for a friend who was commissioned (yes, there was money > involved) to read her poems at the opening of a Mexican restaurant. Here's > another I wrote for a pastry-chef friend of mine (and if you don't have a > pastry-chef friend, you don't know what you're missing): > > > > On 11/11/2011 10:46 AM, junction at earthlink.net wrote: > > Sorry Bill. > > I love eating, and I'm a good cook, but I don't think I've ever written a > food poem. It would be an interesting thread, though I expect that it would > offend non-carnivores. > > Best, > > Mark > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Patricia Anderson / SL: Perplexity Peccable pfa at umich.edu OR patriciafanderson at gmail.com Emerging Technologies Librarian, Health Sciences Libraries, University of Michigan, 1135 East Catherine, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 "Google can give you 1,000 answers to your question. A librarian will give you the right one." Anonymous. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Nov 11 13:32:10 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 13:32:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re Dove's anthology In-Reply-To: <449432.1321032161680.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <449432.1321032161680.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <03274E15C4204E95A6E2633F362D58F6@BobHP> From: junction at earthlink.net Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 12:22 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re Dove's anthology I was very lucky with my Cuban anthology. All of the living poets and some of the estates donated the work I asked for, and the other estates were reasonable. The problem becomes greedy publishers (smart poets don't sell universal rights) and non-literary relatives. Only one poet who should have been included had to be dropped--her heir was a distant cousin who wanted more than the total budget for the book. I mentioned the omission and listed places where English-language translations were available, though I felt and feel very badly for Rebercca Seiferle, who translated about fifteen pages of the poetry--her versions were far superior to what's in print--at my request. Rebecca never blamed me--the soul of generosity--though I should have found out about the permissions issue before asking her. Poets: write a will that names a literary executor who cares about literature. Best, Mark My book, Of Manywhere-at-Once, is among other things an anthology. I paid the few permission fees due the estates of the bigname dead poets whose poems I quoted. Except one that charged too much. I can?t remember now which poet it was. I published his poems, anyway. One advantage to being off the screen of the Establishment is that you can do stuff like that. But I would have argued scholarly privilege if challenged. I did comment on all the poems I quoted. There were something like ten from each of my five bigname poets (Roethke, Yeats, Stevens, Pound, Keats?I remember Pound?s estate as being especially nice?low fee that was waived when they found out I was doing just a 100-copy edition). --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 13:37:33 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 13:37:33 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas Message-ID: <25851190.1321036653935.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Sounds delicious! I'm out of anchovy paste, will pick some up and make this tonight, and report back tomorrow. But I'll replace the sieve with a food processor and assume that the potatoes are cooked. My olive oil's Greek, but that should be ok. -----Original Message----- >From: Patricia F Anderson >Sent: Nov 11, 2011 1:32 PM >To: NewPoetry List >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Peas > >Jerry, you'll probably have to write your own terza rima, however I >can supply a few other examples. > >Here is a blogpost from JJ on the topic. > > > - Poetical Cookbook http://mirlyn.lib.umich.edu/Record/004613796 > >Poetical Cook-Book (book): > > >Poetical Cookbook (app): > > >Another blogpost, differently authored: > > >Two large potatoes, passed through kitchen sieve, >Unwonted softness to the salad give; >Of mordant mustard add a single spoon, >Distrust the condiment that bites so soon; >But deem it not, though man of herbs, a fault, >To add a double quantity of salt; >Three times the spoon with oil of Lucca crown, >And once with vinegar, procured from town; >True flavor needs it, and your poet begs >The pounded yellow of two well-boiled eggs; >Let onion atoms lurk within the bowl, >And, scarce suspected, animate the whole; >And lastly, on the flavored compound toss >A magic teaspoon of anchovy sauce. >Then, though green turtle fail, through ven'son's tough, >And ham and turkey are not boiled enough, >Serenely full, the epicure may say, >"Fate cannot harm me, I have dined to-day!" > - Reverend Sidney Smith of the late 18th century England > >A blog of recipes in verse: > > >A rustic baked potato recipe poem: > > >A couple of my own. > >Corn Chowder: > > >Creation of Meatloaf: > > >Other poem/cookbooks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Enjoy! > > - Patricia > >On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:52 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: >> How about a couple of examples, Patricia? (I'd love a recipe for foccacia in >> terza rima, or blank verse instructions for Spotted Dick.) >> >> Jerry >> >> On 11/11/2011 11:44 AM, Patricia F Anderson wrote: >> >> I was talking about food and recipe poems with JJ Jacobson, who is the >> culinary curator of the University of Michigan Clements Library. In >> that collection reside an astonishing number of verse cookbooks, which >> was a very popular way to help people remember the recipes and >> addressing issues of literacy during the 1800s. JJ is also a poet, and >> we've been collecting and sharing food / recipe / cooking poems, and >> there are already existing published collections as well. >> >> On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Jerry McGuire >> wrote: >> >> I spent part of this morning trying to find a couple of great recipe poems >> written by the irrepressible Bill Sylvester (but I don't have his books with >> me) some years ago. As for me, when I quit smoking (New Year's Day, 1970) I >> immediately started to put on weight. So I obsessed myself onto a diet. It's >> pretty funny (to me, the only one who cares) how loaded my poems of that >> time became with food imagery, most of it unconscious. And I once wrote a >> burrito poem for a friend who was commissioned (yes, there was money >> involved) to read her poems at the opening of a Mexican restaurant. Here's >> another I wrote for a pastry-chef friend of mine (and if you don't have a >> pastry-chef friend, you don't know what you're missing): >> >> >> >> On 11/11/2011 10:46 AM, junction at earthlink.net wrote: >> >> Sorry Bill. >> >> I love eating, and I'm a good cook, but I don't think I've ever written a >> food poem. It would be an interesting thread, though I expect that it would >> offend non-carnivores. >> >> Best, >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > >-- >Patricia Anderson / SL: Perplexity Peccable >pfa at umich.edu OR patriciafanderson at gmail.com >Emerging Technologies Librarian, Health Sciences Libraries, University >of Michigan, 1135 East Catherine, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 >"Google can give you 1,000 answers to your question. A librarian will >give you the right one." Anonymous. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From junction at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 13:39:53 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 13:39:53 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re Dove's anthology Message-ID: <30569289.1321036793452.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Fri Nov 11 13:47:46 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:47:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology Message-ID: <1321037266.15446.YahooMailClassic@web161916.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> True, she is much less available than Plath. Thanks largely to A Alvarez, the confessionals became cult celebs.? I still find Plath's technique, her fluency amazing. But she remains a name known to non-poets because of her bio. --- On Fri, 11/11/11, Jerry McGuire wrote: From: Jerry McGuire Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Friday, November 11, 2011, 11:37 AM I certainly wouldn't argue that Plath is a less influential poet than Teasdale. But I would argue that Teasdale (for whom I have an absolutely unaccountable affection) is underappreciated and much less available than Plath. She's more delicate (maybe preciously so) and arguably more finely nuanced (Plath paints in pretty broad strokes sometimes). I'm not arguing that Plath must be destroyed and Teasdale elevated (though that's a nice placard for someone occupying Wall Street who wants their picture on CNN), but that in a giant anthology of twentieth century poetry I'd hope there'd be room for both of them, and if one has to be left out, it would do less harm to Plath's memory (which will persist) than Teasdale;s (which is fading). Jerry On 11/11/2011 9:48 AM, stephen russell wrote: Is there *any* responsible critic who argues that Plath is *both* a lesser poet and a less influential poet than Teasdale? ?Or, for heaven's sake, that even Diane Wakoski is better than Plath? Certainly no sane critic would make that argument. I got hooked on Plath (all the way back (20th century)) ... after reading the extended metaphor below -- Metaphors by Sylvia Plath1 I'm a riddle in nine syllables. An elephant, a ponderous house, A melon strolling on two tendrils. O red fruit, ivory, fine timbers! This loaf's big with its yeasty rising. Money's new-minted in this fat purse. I'm a means, a stage, a cow in calf. I've eaten a bag of green apples, Boarded the train there's no getting off. --- On Fri, 11/11/11, David Graham-RC wrote: From: David Graham-RC Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Friday, November 11, 2011, 10:16 AM Yes, in the brief excerpt I read (not sure I'm willing to pay 5 bucks for the whole review!) Vendler expresses a common opinion: ?"No century in the evolution of poetry in English ever had 175 poets worth reading, so why are we being asked to sample so many poets of little or no lasting value?" One might call that the Elite Lament, or William Logan Fallacy, for the reason Al Maginnes notes. ?An anthology of any kind is, of course, a snapshot of current taste. ?Most if not all anthologies quickly seem dated, and the track record of editors getting things "right" in terms of future taste is abysmal. ?Otherwise all our anthologies of 19th Century American poetry would be stuffed with Whittier, Bryant, Holmes, Longfellow, and even lesser lights, with no Dickinson, Whitman, Crane, Melville, and certainly no Trumbull Stickney. ? Nothing looks sillier faster, I would argue, than one of those anthologies that tries to go deep, and sample more poems by fewer poets. ?That's when you end up with 20 pages of Louis Untermeyer and no Langston Hughes. ?Such anthologies have their place when addressing a theme, or attempting a correction of received wisdom, or calling attention to the unjustly neglected, and so forth. ?When they attempt magisterial surveys of a whole period, they're bound to fail, and not later but sooner. ?Of course, Vendler herself famously produced exactly such a anthology, *The Harvard Book of Contemporary American Poetry* back in the 1980s, which includes good poems by good poets but is utterly useless as an historical survey. ? Dove's sin, as I said before, is not in being too inclusive; it's in leaving out poets like Plath and Ginsberg. ?I cannot fathom her reasoning. ?It's certainly within her rights to consider, say, Sexton a better poet than Plath. ?A looney opinion, to my mind, but within an anthologist's prerogative if she wishes to present "my favorite 20 poets" or something. ?But in a book which clearly aims to go very wide rather than deep, and present a valuable historical snapshot, what possible justification can there be for including no Plath AT ALL, when you are going to sample poets such as Angelina Weld Grimke, Edgar Lee Masters, and Sara Teasdale? ?Is there *any* responsible critic who argues that Plath is *both* a lesser poet and a less influential poet than Teasdale? ?Or, for heaven's sake, that even Diane Wakoski is better than Plath? Likewise with leaving out Ginsberg. ?His omission alone invalidates Dove's effort as a 20th Century survey. ?It would be like a 19th C. anthology with no Dickinson. ? ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Nov 11, 2011, at 8:18 AM, AlMaginnes at aol.com wrote: The fact is we don't know which poets from the 20th century will still be read 300 years or a 1000 years from now. We probably have a good idea or think we do, but how many anthologists in 1890 or 1900 would have bet that Emily Dickinson would be acclaimed one of the two most important American poets of the 19th century. The whole idea of an anthology, as I understand it, is to offer a broad taste of what's available. Then the curious can track down more Elizabeth Bishop or Vachel Lindsay or whoever rocks their boat that morning. -----Original Message----- From: stephen russell To: NewPoetry List Sent: Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:04 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology A preview of coming attractions (from Helen V): Multicultural inclusiveness prevails: some 175 poets are represented. No century in the evolution of poetry in English ever had 175 poets worth reading, so why are we being asked to sample so many poets of little or no lasting value? Anthologists may now be extending a too general welcome. Selectivity has been condemned as ?elitism,? and a hundred flowers are invited to bloom. People who wouldn?t be able to take on the long-term commitment of a novel find a longed-for release in writing a poem. And it seems rude to denigrate the heartfelt lines of people moved to verse. It is popular to say (and it is in part true) that in literary matters tastes differ, and that every critic can be wrong. But there is a certain objectivity bestowed by the mere passage of time, and its sifting of wheat from chaff: Which of Dove?s 175 poets will have staying power, and which will seep back into the archives of sociology? --- On Thu, 11/10/11, junction at earthlink.net wrote: ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Fri Nov 11 13:47:26 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 18:47:26 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <25315985.1321035979510.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <25315985.1321035979510.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Wow, I'm amazed--my mother is from Glasgow; and I have family there (Newton Mearns) and know the area well, but could not have imagined the foxes! Sheila Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 13:26:19 -0500 From: junction at earthlink.net To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption My kid lives near the Kelvin, two blocks from Great Western Road. On any night--really--foxes walk down the middle of Otago, Oakfield, and Hillhead. I see them all the time when I'm there, regardless of season. For those who don't know Glasgow, this is the university neighborhood. The banks of the Kelvin River are a greenway when they're not within Kelvingrove Park and the Botanical Gardens, both large open areas. On several occasions my son was threatened by foxes, very aggressively, while jogging along the river. There's the one path, and no alternative. Lousy place to make a den, if you ask me. There are now lots of coyotes on the East Coast in the US. Not native to the area. But when the wolves were exterminated they moved in. Occasionally a coyote makes its way into Manhattan. -----Original Message----- From: sheila black Sent: Nov 11, 2011 12:56 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Golly--Mark--I like what you're saying, but I have never yet seen a fox on the streets of Glasgow, though maybe out in Newton Mearns! S. Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 12:39:48 -0500 From: junction at earthlink.net To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Yup, we do. Though I don't know how avoiding the problem while applying the Aristotelian would work in practice. Which is why those of us in wealthy countries really work to make better decisions about how we use resources and into which projects we put funding abroad. Wealth thus far hasn't translated into a lot of wisdom or will, at least in the US. Environmental issues beyond the clean air act (and maybe not even that) won't be issues in the next election. Consistent polling of voters places environmental concerns low in the list of concerns. There are also those devils in the details. Humans slaughter other predators and then make rules limiting hunting of prey animals, with disastrous results. There are even situations in which removing humans as predators creates unforeseen problems. Farmers in Britain complain about the proliferation of foxes since the ban on fox hunts. The proliferation of foxes has also unbalanced the urban environment, to what effect we don't yet knowe, though we can assume there'll be a reduction of rodent and bird populations. Though it's charming to see foxes on the streets of Glasgow, as one can any evening. Not so charming when they threaten joggers in the parks (as they have my son) who stray too close to dens invisible to the runners. It's not a question of returning to an environment where it's laissez faire for all species but ours. Complex issues. Made more complex by the great displacements of climate change. Best, Mark -----Original Message----- From: gabriel gudding Sent: Nov 11, 2011 12:24 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Hi Tony! Hi Mark, Yes to this: "The caveat is that conditions of scarcity continue to generate mass violence, and in large parts of the world we can expect more of those as more environments are stressed by climate change." Which is why those of us in wealthy countries really work to make better decisions about how we use resources and into which projects we put funding abroad. This is interesting to me: "Once again, where we disagree is on the nature and responsibility of art, which after all is what brings us to this list. There's a famous talmudic statement, 'Don't make the torah your axe.' Don't use it for one's personal platform. We've seen where this too often has taken us in the past and too often still does. I don't doubt for a second that human societies are still capable of burning 'counterproductive' art and throwing the artists on the pyre for good measure. And there's the question of how this idea of helpful art jibes with art as the measure of what remains unknown." I think this is interesting for the very reasons I broached that issue of instrumentalizing art (in my last to Sheila). I think it's a cognitive error that gives rise to this notion that the aesthetic and the ethical are separate and its counterpart fear that flourishing in the Aristotelian sense (and Aristotle seems to be someone modern neuroethicists keep coming back to) leads to didactic art. An ethical project -- especially in a Levinasian sense -- can't be a solipsistic project. And I wonder how much that aphorism about the Talmud cd a little algorithm for fatalism. But not to quibble (beyond that): I take your point. "Right. Sacralize bad--but learn from, if we choose, good." -- yes, seems like a good way forward. Hey, we agree on something! :) Gabe _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 13:56:32 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 13:56:32 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <8344988.1321037792873.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 14:29:16 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 13:29:16 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <28584801.1321033189475.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <28584801.1321033189475.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Mark, Certainly, there are devils in the details. But devils are also in the gross realities -- to the extent that, as you note, humans have some serious cognitive blindspots when it comes to huge issues impacting them and their fellow animals. It's not even on the radar for most people: that key area as to massive factory farming -- ecologically (and morally for many, myself included) and its impact on our mutual well-being. The human-predator-removal argument is, I think, a cognitive error -- and could just as easily be applied in its inverse: which population is more out of control (humans or foxes) and why? If humans, don't blame foxes. If foxes, maybe realize that human notions of animality are predicated on a notion of animality as something that should not be a part of cities and human habitation. I actually WANT the raccoons to come back and stay with me in or on my garage this winter, just as they did all spring and summer. And I discourage the neighbor who is bent on trapping them. Too, the argument is based on thinking of animals as populations to be controlled, not difficult-to-communicate-with cultures to which we should adapt. That same argument of human-predator-removal was used to extirpate deer, bear, and beavers from Illinois. There were none left by 1920. Humans in the US and Europe have a history of thinking "vermin" (the animal other, the human other [women, Jews, Africans, Latinos, whatever is the subaltern other]) are everywhere or will overrun us. It's an error. So, sometimes when I hear/read people continue, in the face of catastrophe, to say "wow, complex issues," I get an image in mind of someone standing at the edge of a vast field on which an expanse of humans and animals are dying because of a malign and stoppable force -- and that someone saying, "Gosh, complex situation: I won't join in a collective effort to stop the malign force in this massive area of dying because there are also some animals in an adjacent small meadow who are also dying." So yeah, there are details. There are also gross realities. As to Aristotle, I don't have the Homiak article with me and don't trust my memory well enough to clearly articulate her argument without referring to it again. Sorry about that. Once I get home later I'll try to do that. Gabe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patriciafanderson at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 15:08:45 2011 From: patriciafanderson at gmail.com (Patricia F Anderson) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:08:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas In-Reply-To: <25851190.1321036653935.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <25851190.1321036653935.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: I'm in love with this Villanelle about making a sandwich: On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 1:37 PM, wrote: > Sounds delicious! I'm out of anchovy paste, will pick some up and make this tonight, and report back tomorrow. But I'll replace the sieve with a food processor and assume that the potatoes are cooked. My olive oil's Greek, but that should be ok. > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Patricia F Anderson >>Sent: Nov 11, 2011 1:32 PM >>To: NewPoetry List >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Peas >> >>Jerry, you'll probably have to write your own terza rima, however I >>can supply a few other examples. >> >>Here is a blogpost from JJ on the topic. >> >> >> - Poetical Cookbook http://mirlyn.lib.umich.edu/Record/004613796 >> >>Poetical Cook-Book (book): >> >> >>Poetical Cookbook (app): >> >> >>Another blogpost, differently authored: >> >> >>Two large potatoes, passed through kitchen sieve, >>Unwonted softness to the salad give; >>Of mordant mustard add a single spoon, >>Distrust the condiment that bites so soon; >>But deem it not, though man of herbs, a fault, >>To add a double quantity of salt; >>Three times the spoon with oil of Lucca crown, >>And once with vinegar, procured from town; >>True flavor needs it, and your poet begs >>The pounded yellow of two well-boiled eggs; >>Let onion atoms lurk within the bowl, >>And, scarce suspected, animate the whole; >>And lastly, on the flavored compound toss >>A magic teaspoon of anchovy sauce. >>Then, though green turtle fail, through ven'son's tough, >>And ham and turkey are not boiled enough, >>Serenely full, the epicure may say, >>"Fate cannot harm me, I have dined to-day!" >> - Reverend Sidney Smith of the late 18th century England >> >>A blog of recipes in verse: >> >> >>A rustic baked potato recipe poem: >> >> >>A couple of my own. >> >>Corn Chowder: >> >> >>Creation of Meatloaf: >> >> >>Other poem/cookbooks. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Enjoy! >> >> - Patricia >> >>On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:52 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: >>> How about a couple of examples, Patricia? (I'd love a recipe for foccacia in >>> terza rima, or blank verse instructions for Spotted Dick.) >>> >>> Jerry >>> >>> On 11/11/2011 11:44 AM, Patricia F Anderson wrote: >>> >>> I was talking about food and recipe poems with JJ Jacobson, who is the >>> culinary curator of the University of Michigan Clements Library. In >>> that collection reside an astonishing number of verse cookbooks, which >>> was a very popular way to help people remember the recipes and >>> addressing issues of literacy during the 1800s. JJ is also a poet, and >>> we've been collecting and sharing food / recipe / cooking poems, and >>> there are already existing published collections as well. >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Jerry McGuire >>> wrote: >>> >>> I spent part of this morning trying to find a couple of great recipe poems >>> written by the irrepressible Bill Sylvester (but I don't have his books with >>> me) some years ago. As for me, when I quit smoking (New Year's Day, 1970) I >>> immediately started to put on weight. So I obsessed myself onto a diet. It's >>> pretty funny (to me, the only one who cares) how loaded my poems of that >>> time became with food imagery, most of it unconscious. And I once wrote a >>> burrito poem for a friend who was commissioned (yes, there was money >>> involved) to read her poems at the opening of a Mexican restaurant. Here's >>> another I wrote for a pastry-chef friend of mine (and if you don't have a >>> pastry-chef friend, you don't know what you're missing): >>> >>> >>> >>> On 11/11/2011 10:46 AM, junction at earthlink.net wrote: >>> >>> Sorry Bill. >>> >>> I love eating, and I'm a good cook, but I don't think I've ever written a >>> food poem. It would be an interesting thread, though I expect that it would >>> offend non-carnivores. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> >>-- >>Patricia Anderson / SL: Perplexity Peccable >>pfa at umich.edu OR patriciafanderson at gmail.com >>Emerging Technologies Librarian, Health Sciences Libraries, University >>of Michigan, 1135 East Catherine, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 >>"Google can give you 1,000 answers to your question. A librarian will >>give you the right one." Anonymous. >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Patricia Anderson / SL: Perplexity Peccable pfa at umich.edu OR patriciafanderson at gmail.com Emerging Technologies Librarian, Health Sciences Libraries, University of Michigan, 1135 East Catherine, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 "Google can give you 1,000 answers to your question. A librarian will give you the right one." Anonymous. From antrobin at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 16:13:25 2011 From: antrobin at gmail.com (Anthony Robinson) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 13:13:25 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Welcome back In-Reply-To: <8FA71EA350FD4440805D5DDCABDE57D7@BobHP> References: <8FA71EA350FD4440805D5DDCABDE57D7@BobHP> Message-ID: Bob, You're thinking of Poetry Northwest. T On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 7:12 AM, bob grumman wrote: > > > *From:* Anthony Robinson > *Sent:* Thursday, November 10, 2011 7:50 PM > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Welcome back > > Anny, > > Not sure congratulations on the NWR are in order. I was a poetry editor > there for 8 years and then one day the English department decided it would > no longer fund something as frivolous as a literary journal. Within a > couple of weeks, a certain Hawaiian poet of questionable ethics and more > than a passing resemblance to a walrus used some of his department's money > to take over the magazine. We were all promptly fired. I haven't seen > an issue of the "New" NWR but I'm sure I'd be less than thrilled with it. > Well, as long as it stayed in the northwest . . . I liked it because > of the old Wilshberian David Wagoner?s association with it. I like his > work even though he got at least one poem into *The New Yorker*. Unless > I?m thinking of a different magazine? > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Nov 11 16:20:53 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:20:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Welcome back In-Reply-To: References: <8FA71EA350FD4440805D5DDCABDE57D7@BobHP> Message-ID: <3137D5398C644D9F9E04574498BBE93C@BobHP> From: Anthony Robinson Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 4:13 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Welcome back Bob, You're thinking of Poetry Northwest. T Ah, so. Still, Hawaii doesn?t seem very northern. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Nov 11 17:55:57 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 17:55:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology In-Reply-To: <4EBCFBCF0200006E000A07F6@gwdm1.valpo.edu> References: <4EBCFBCF0200006E000A07F6@gwdm1.valpo.edu> Message-ID: <8CE6EDC35125293-1B44-29E40@webmail-d165.sysops.aol.com> Here's a solution...print a few semi-blank pages, except for fair use... ALLEN GINSBERG (1926-1997) [But for greed, here you would be reading poetry by Allen Ginsberg] Moloch! Moloch! -- SYLVIA PLATH (1932-1963) [Avarice prevents you from reading Sylvia Plath's poems here] Money?s new-minted in this fat purse. -----Original Message----- From: Edward Byrne To: new-poetry Sent: Fri, Nov 11, 2011 6:49 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology I received a review copy and have read through the anthology, which includes a long introduction by Dove. I am a supporter of Dove's poetry, as my critical writings in the past can verify, though I do side with Vendler on some of her complaints about the contents of the anthology. However, on the exclusion of Plath and Ginsberg, Dove (she also singles out Sterling Brown) is very specific in her introduction as she explains their absence and begs her readers to "cut her some slack." According to Dove, the fees for rights to poems by Plath and Ginsberg were astronomical, and the two were excluded for budgetary reasons: "I could not spend roughly one-fourth of the entire budget on a small fraction of the anthology, and I could not betray the trust of those who had granted me affordable fees under the sine qua non that I would not abuse their largesse by shifting the savings to satisfy extreme demands." In her shot at some publishers, Dove wishes she could have worked directly with Ginsberg, since "the legacy of the dead can be enslaved by the living." As someone who has dealt with publishers on reprint fees for an anthology, I totally sympathize with Dove on this point. --Ed -------------------------------------------------- Edward Byrne Department of English 322 Huegli Hall Valparaiso University Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu Web Page: http://edwardbyrne.shutterfly.com/ Audio Chapbook: http://wschap4.wordpress.com/ Latest Book: http://www.turningpointbooks.com/byrne-tinted.html Personal Blog: http://www.edwardbyrnepoetry.blogspot.com/ Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu VPR Web Page: http://www.valpo.edu/vpr/ VPR Editor's Blog: http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/ Co-Editor, Valparaiso Fiction Review: http://scholar.valpo.edu/vfr E-mail: vfr at valpo.edu Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 Twitter: http://twitter.com/valpopoetry Fax: (219) 464-5511 -------------------------------------------------- >>> stephen russell 11/11/11 9:48 AM >>> Is there *any* responsible critic who argues that Plath is *both* a lesser poet and a less influential poet than Teasdale? Or, for heaven's sake, that even Diane Wakoski is better than Plath? Certainly no sane critic would make that argument. I got hooked on Plath (all the way back (20th century)) ... after reading the extended metaphor below -- Metaphorsby Sylvia Plath1 I'ma riddle in nine syllables. An elephant, a ponderous house, Amelon strolling on two tendrils. O red fruit, ivory, finetimbers! This loaf's big with its yeasty rising. Money'snew-minted in this fat purse. I'm a means, a stage, a cow incalf. I've eaten a bag of green apples, Boarded the train there's no getting off. --- On Fri, 11/11/11, David Graham-RC wrote: From: David Graham-RC Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Friday, November 11, 2011, 10:16 AM Yes, in the brief excerpt I read (not sure I'm willing to pay 5 bucks for the whole review!) Vendler expresses a common opinion: "No century in the evolution of poetry in English ever had 175 poets worth reading, so why are we being asked to sample so many poets of little or no lasting value?" One might call that the Elite Lament, or William Logan Fallacy, for the reason Al Maginnes notes. An anthology of any kind is, of course, a snapshot of current taste. Most if not all anthologies quickly seem dated, and the track record of editors getting things "right" in terms of future taste is abysmal. Otherwise all our anthologies of 19th Century American poetry would be stuffed with Whittier, Bryant, Holmes, Longfellow, and even lesser lights, with no Dickinson, Whitman, Crane, Melville, and certainly no Trumbull Stickney. Nothing looks sillier faster, I would argue, than one of those anthologies that tries to go deep, and sample more poems by fewer poets. That's when you end up with 20 pages of Louis Untermeyer and no Langston Hughes. Such anthologies have their place when addressing a theme, or attempting a correction of received wisdom, or calling attention to the unjustly neglected, and so forth. When they attempt magisterial surveys of a whole period, they're bound to fail, and not later but sooner. Of course, Vendler herself famously produced exactly such a anthology, *The Harvard Book of Contemporary American Poetry* back in the 1980s, which includes good poems by good poets but is utterly useless as an historical survey. Dove's sin, as I said before, is not in being too inclusive; it's in leaving out poets like Plath and Ginsberg. I cannot fathom her reasoning. It's certainly within her rights to consider, say, Sexton a better poet than Plath. A looney opinion, to my mind, but within an anthologist's prerogative if she wishes to present "my favorite 20 poets" or something. But in a book which clearly aims to go very wide rather than deep, and present a valuable historical snapshot, what possible justification can there be for including no Plath AT ALL, when you are going to sample poets such as Angelina Weld Grimke, Edgar Lee Masters, and Sara Teasdale? Is there *any* responsible critic who argues that Plath is *both* a lesser poet and a less influential poet than Teasdale? Or, for heaven's sake, that even Diane Wakoski is better than Plath? Likewise with leaving out Ginsberg. His omission alone invalidates Dove's effort as a 20th Century survey. It would be like a 19th C. anthology with no Dickinson. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Nov 11, 2011, at 8:18 AM, AlMaginnes at aol.com wrote: The fact is we don't know which poets from the 20th century will still be read 300 years or a 1000 years from now. We probably have a good idea or think we do, but how many anthologists in 1890 or 1900 would have bet that Emily Dickinson would be acclaimed one of the two most important American poets of the 19th century. The whole idea of an anthology, as I understand it, is to offer a broad taste of what's available. Then the curious can track down more Elizabeth Bishop or Vachel Lindsay or whoever rocks their boat that morning. -----Original Message----- From: stephen russell To: NewPoetry List Sent: Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:04 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology A preview of coming attractions (from Helen V): Multicultural inclusiveness prevails: some 175 poets are represented. No century in the evolution of poetry in English ever had 175 poets worth reading, so why are we being asked to sample so many poets of little or no lasting value? Anthologists may now be extending a too general welcome. Selectivity has been condemned as ?elitism,? and a hundred flowers are invited to bloom. People who wouldn?t be able to take on the long-term commitment of a novel find a longed-for release in writing a poem. And it seems rude to denigrate the heartfelt lines of people moved to verse. It is popular to say (and it is in part true) that in literary matters tastes differ, and that every critic can be wrong. But there is a certain objectivity bestowed by the mere passage of time, and its sifting of wheat from chaff: Which of Dove?s 175 poets will have staying power, and which will seep back into the archives of sociology? --- On Thu, 11/10/11, junction at earthlink.net wrote: ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Nov 11 18:02:52 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 18:02:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Welcome back In-Reply-To: References: <8FA71EA350FD4440805D5DDCABDE57D7@BobHP> Message-ID: <8CE6EDD2CCBFE9C-1B44-2A059@webmail-d165.sysops.aol.com> and if you play "I Am the Walrus" by The Beatles backwards, you can hear a haunting voice intoning "Garrett Hongo." People tell me this is so. -----Original Message----- From: Anthony Robinson To: NewPoetry List Sent: Fri, Nov 11, 2011 12:29 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Welcome back Bob, You're thinking of Poetry Northwest. T On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 7:12 AM, bob grumman wrote: From: Anthony Robinson Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2011 7:50 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Welcome back Anny, Not sure congratulations on the NWR are in order. I was a poetry editor there for 8 years and then one day the English department decided it would no longer fund something as frivolous as a literary journal. Within a couple of weeks, a certain Hawaiian poet of questionable ethics and more than a passing resemblance to a walrus used some of his department's money to take over the magazine. We were all promptly fired. I haven't seen an issue of the "New" NWR but I'm sure I'd be less than thrilled with it. Well, as long as it stayed in the northwest . . . I liked it because of the old Wilshberian David Wagoner?s association with it. I like his work even though he got at least one poem into The New Yorker. Unless I?m thinking of a different magazine? --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Fri Nov 11 18:09:59 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 23:09:59 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, , , , , , <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , , , , , , , Message-ID: Dear Gabriel: Please don't apologize--the only reason I probably get back to you faster is I probably do not work as hard at my job as you do in yours--or I have more dead time between! Well, anyway, I am hoping to successfully keep putting my e-mails on a stringent diet so they get slimmer and slimmer as I think we have probably covered the main points of our disagreement/agreement. It might be enough to just say I am of a decidedly more pessimist turn of mind than you--which surprises me a little because in my daily life I tend to come off as quite the pollyanna myself (to the sometimes annoyance of those around me). But I think it is true. For instance--I would love to know, given the general horrors of the past century what Pinker could really mean by "violence has declined?" And yet I won't argue. What I have to agree on is the distinction you make--well done!--between the mystical experience and the "instrumentalizing of it." Also, I have to confess, I am very taken with the whole discussion of aesthetics and ethics--and goal-oriented versus a-pleasure-in-themselves activities. I do think those distinctions are important, and I like as a sort of improving motto (one particularly designed for poets and other such useless people) the notion of saying to myself at regular intervals: "I must not instrumentalize aesthetics." Perhaps I shall try saying that to myself every morning as I perform what is so charmingly termed in the much-beloved children's book Babar the Elephant, my "setting up exercises." Though this is completely irrelevant to all the discussions we have been having (but fits perhaps the notion of lightness when it comes to aesthetic/ethical matters); I have always been utterly moved (sentimentally I know given the Colonial subtext of Babar books and the later over-inflated Babar industry--as Mark has ably pointed out, it is a complex world) by the fact that Jean de Brunhoff illustrated, wrote down (his wife had made up the story for their children, I believe) those books to cheer up his family as he slowly wasted away from TB in one of those immortally dreary Swiss sanatoriums. And yet the books are so hopeful--so silly even! Which I have come to believe is the quality I most admire--a kind of cosmic silliness, in the face of, etc., which I daresay is one way--though not the only surely--aesthetics can actually prove useful. I'm happy you like some of my suggestions--I think you--or if not you certainly your students--will get a great kick of the Spahr book if you decide to use it. Best, :) (: Sheila Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:52:48 -0600 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Sheila, Sorry it's taken me a few days to get back to you. Got really busy at work again. I can see why you wd think I'm in to de-mystifying, but am not someone who believes/wants, at all, to deny the importance of nouminal/mystical experiences -- I only question the stuff done with such experiences: taking such experiences and then pretending to know things we don't/can't know (stories/cosmologies about the supposed transcendental, the poet as a special being who utters precious speech, etc), rather than using those experiences to better all relationships humans are involved in (human and human/animal). What most often happens, it seems, is these experiences -- which are in fact common -- are taken to be special and belonging to certain persons. Just lectured yesterday on chpt 2 of Bourdieu's _The Field of Cultural Production_, in which he examines, in part, this very issue wrt the fetish of "transgressive" artists. "I think I have less faith than you by far in the ability of groups of people to analyze anything altogether objectively and learn from it...." I get why you wd write that! But I am not a pollyanna, by any means -- but I know we've done a pretty good job overall at doing this, to the extent that we forget what it was like not so long ago. I really wd urge anyone curious about this to read Pinker's _The Better Angels of Our Nature: How Violence Has Declined_. So "anything" is, for me, an overstatement. And I am persuaded by Pinker's thesis. Humans are very good at organizing around what they care about. We just need to expand the circle of what we care about and carefully apply ourselves to that. Lot of societies do this better than the US: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ7LzE3u7Bw I have not read Kenzaboro Oe, no. But will add him to the already amazing list you've suggested so far (and which I *will* follow up on). The meeting you describe about XLH in the hospital was hard to read about. And I understand your wariness better now, as such a meeting is harrowing just to read about. "So who am I to say you are not right about the slaughter of the animals?" And: "Yet I also know that there are many right-to-lifers I tend to strenuously disagree with who feel the same about the hordes of the unborn." And in reading that I am reminded of the recent case in Mississippi attempting to extend "personhood" to fertilized eggs. So, insofar as both the Mississippi evangelicals and animals rights movements are both trying to persuade us of the value of widening the circle of empathy to include others, there are homologies, yes. The difference is of course that one side is talking about potential beings only, the colonization of the female body, the removal of bodily and mental sovereignty from any pregnant woman -- and the gripping of the future, and all future beings, as an area of law; and as such, such a project is eugenicist. The other is about precisely the reduction of eugenics, to which animals are already subject, and the abrogation of the eugenic and instrumentalized treatment of all beings, with a specific focus on according sovereignty to the present beings already here. So, one increases instrumentalization of beings, and one seeks to reduce it. On this I totally agree: "I don't disagree with you about the idea that phenomena of mind can be studied, nor that this should not be in some degree a purpose of art. I think the rub comes in around that notion of beauty/truth--too often ethical purposes mean we don't or don't dare or forget how to tell the whole story." Have just been discussing the debate between Richard Posner and Martha Nussbaum on this point in one class and discussing Marcia Homiak's article on Aristotelian ethics and art in "Virtue and the Skills of Ordinary Life" and it occurred to me at some point yesterday that probably one of the reasons Posner and others so insist on a separation between aesthetics and ethics is that they are concerned we not, per Aristotle, instrumentalize aesthetics. It should not be a means to an end, but an end in itself. A has this distinction between goal-oriented activities ("doing") versus activities that are a pleasure in themselves ("activity") -- with the latter being, overall, the key to both an ethical life and an aesthetic life: extending "activity" as much as possible is key to flourishing. Posner is NOT an Aristotelian. But of course A abrogates that concern -- in that he speaks of the aesthetic as the exercise of skills (both in the artist and in the recipient) that are the basis of virtue, so that "beauty" for him is "arete" (excellence in action), not as a thing/artifact to be fetishized (beauty). The Homiak is a really neat article. For Aristotle, then, beauty is truly a verb. :) Precisely because he refuses to instrumentalize the good: the good is its own pleasure. In the now and the here. Not in some Mississipian future nestled inside women's bodies. I think this is hard, in a Kantian world, to understand. When people think "ethics" they think duty and instrumentalization and lack of enjoyment. And OH!!!: thank you for the Spahr suggestion. I've read her _This Connection of Everyone with Lungs_ and two of her other shorter chapbooks -- and really enjoy her work, and will look into including the one you suggest! Thank you! Gabe (hope I matched your shorter email!). :) _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 18:35:12 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 18:35:12 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <15207230.1321054513565.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 18:44:57 2011 From: antrobin at gmail.com (Anthony Robinson) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:44:57 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Welcome back In-Reply-To: <8CE6EDD2CCBFE9C-1B44-2A059@webmail-d165.sysops.aol.com> References: <8FA71EA350FD4440805D5DDCABDE57D7@BobHP> <8CE6EDD2CCBFE9C-1B44-2A059@webmail-d165.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Hm... See, I want to "like" this. (FB dominance has changed the meaning, the valences of this word, "like"...) but then it would give credit of some bizarre sort to GH and it would diminish what is a pretty good Beatles song. (Not the best, but any Beatles song that involves John Lennon and LSD is pretty good...at least better than any verse Prof. Walrus has ever penned. Oh, what inner turmoil. What conflict! Tony p.s. one of the tiny perks of being a non-academic uninvested, completely independent poetry person is that I can talk smack about whomever I want without worrying about my "career." Oh, and when I pick on Franz Wright, it's all in fun--but damn, dude invites heckling! GH, on the other hand...ick ick ick. On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 3:02 PM, wrote: > and if you play "I Am the Walrus" by The Beatles backwards, you can hear a > haunting voice intoning "Garrett Hongo." People tell me this is so. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anthony Robinson > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Fri, Nov 11, 2011 12:29 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Welcome back > > Bob, > > You're thinking of Poetry Northwest. > > T > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 7:12 AM, bob grumman wrote: > >> >> >> *From:* Anthony Robinson >> *Sent:* Thursday, November 10, 2011 7:50 PM >> *To:* NewPoetry List >> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Welcome back >> >> Anny, >> >> Not sure congratulations on the NWR are in order. I was a poetry editor >> there for 8 years and then one day the English department decided it would >> no longer fund something as frivolous as a literary journal. Within a >> couple of weeks, a certain Hawaiian poet of questionable ethics and more >> than a passing resemblance to a walrus used some of his department's money >> to take over the magazine. We were all promptly fired. I haven't seen >> an issue of the "New" NWR but I'm sure I'd be less than thrilled with it. >> Well, as long as it stayed in the northwest . . . I liked it because >> of the old Wilshberian David Wagoner?s association with it. I like his >> work even though he got at least one poem into *The New Yorker*. Unless >> I?m thinking of a different magazine? >> >> --Bob >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 18:48:56 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 18:48:56 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <26159027.1321055336757.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 18:53:12 2011 From: antrobin at gmail.com (Anthony Robinson) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:53:12 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sheila, Gabe, et al. I can't claim to have much to offer to this conversation but I will say that "violence has declined" seems pretty true to me. Just ask your nearest 12th century European average citizen. T On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 3:09 PM, sheila black wrote: > Dear Gabriel: > > Please don't apologize--the only reason I probably get back to you faster > is I probably do not work as hard at my job as you do in yours--or I have > more dead time between! Well, anyway, I am hoping to successfully keep > putting my e-mails on a stringent diet so they get slimmer and slimmer as I > think we have probably covered the main points of our > disagreement/agreement. It might be enough to just say I am of a decidedly > more pessimist turn of mind than you--which surprises me a little because > in my daily life I tend to come off as quite the pollyanna myself (to the > sometimes annoyance of those around me). But I think it is true. For > instance--I would love to know, given the general horrors of the past > century what Pinker could really mean by "violence has declined?" And yet > I won't argue. What I have to agree on is the distinction you make--well > done!--between the mystical experience and the "instrumentalizing of it." > Also, I have to confess, I am very taken with the whole discussion of > aesthetics and ethics--and goal-oriented versus a-pleasure-in-themselves > activities. I do think those distinctions are important, and I like as a > sort of improving motto (one particularly designed for poets and other such > useless people) the notion of saying to myself at regular intervals: "I > must not instrumentalize aesthetics." Perhaps I shall try saying* that*to myself every morning as I perform what is so charmingly termed in the > much-beloved children's book *Babar the Elephant*, my "setting up > exercises." Though this is completely irrelevant to all the discussions we > have been having (but fits perhaps the notion of lightness when it comes to > aesthetic/ethical matters); I have always been utterly moved (sentimentally > I know given the Colonial subtext of Babar books and the later > over-inflated Babar industry--as Mark has ably pointed out, it is a complex > world) by the fact that Jean de Brunhoff illustrated, wrote down (his wife > had made up the story for their children, I believe) those books to cheer > up his family as he slowly wasted away from TB in one of those immortally > dreary Swiss sanatoriums. And yet the books are so hopeful--so silly > even! Which I have come to believe is the quality I most admire--a kind of > cosmic silliness, in the face of, etc., which I daresay is one way--though > not the only surely--aesthetics can actually prove useful. > > I'm happy you like some of my suggestions--I think you--or if not you > certainly your students--will get a great kick of the Spahr book if you > decide to use it. > > Best, :) (: > > Sheila > > > ------------------------------ > Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:52:48 -0600 > From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > Sheila, > > Sorry it's taken me a few days to get back to you. Got really busy at work > again. > > I can see why you wd think I'm in to de-mystifying, but am not someone who > believes/wants, at all, to deny the importance of nouminal/mystical > experiences -- I only question the stuff done with such experiences: taking > such experiences and then pretending to know things we don't/can't know > (stories/cosmologies about the supposed transcendental, the poet as a > special being who utters precious speech, etc), rather than using those > experiences to better all relationships humans are involved in (human and > human/animal). What most often happens, it seems, is these experiences -- > which are in fact common -- are taken to be special and belonging to > certain persons. Just lectured yesterday on chpt 2 of Bourdieu's _The Field > of Cultural Production_, in which he examines, in part, this very issue wrt > the fetish of "transgressive" artists. > > "I think I have less faith than you by far in the ability of groups of > people to analyze anything altogether objectively and learn from it...." I > get why you wd write that! But I am not a pollyanna, by any means -- but I > know we've done a pretty good job overall at doing this, to the extent that > we forget what it was like not so long ago. I really wd urge anyone curious > about this to read Pinker's _The Better Angels of Our Nature: How Violence > Has Declined_. So "anything" is, for me, an overstatement. And I am > persuaded by Pinker's thesis. Humans are very good at organizing around > what they care about. We just need to expand the circle of what we care > about and carefully apply ourselves to that. Lot of societies do this > better than the US: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ7LzE3u7Bw > > I have not read Kenzaboro Oe, no. But will add him to the already amazing > list you've suggested so far (and which I *will* follow up on). The meeting > you describe about XLH in the hospital was hard to read about. And I > understand your wariness better now, as such a meeting is harrowing just to > read about. "So who am I to say you are not right about the slaughter of > the animals?" And: "Yet I also know that there are many right-to-lifers I > tend to strenuously disagree with who feel the same about the hordes of the > unborn." And in reading that I am reminded of the recent case in > Mississippi attempting to extend "personhood" to fertilized eggs. > > So, insofar as both the Mississippi evangelicals and animals rights > movements are both trying to persuade us of the value of widening the > circle of empathy to include others, there are homologies, yes. > > The difference is of course that one side is talking about potential > beings only, the colonization of the female body, the removal of bodily and > mental sovereignty from any pregnant woman -- and the gripping of the > future, and all future beings, as an area of law; and as such, such a > project is eugenicist. The other is about precisely the reduction of > eugenics, to which animals are already subject, and the abrogation of the > eugenic and instrumentalized treatment of all beings, with a specific focus > on according sovereignty to the present beings already here. > > So, one increases instrumentalization of beings, and one seeks to reduce > it. > > On this I totally agree: "I don't disagree with you about the idea that > phenomena of mind can be studied, nor that this should not be in some > degree a purpose of art. I think the rub comes in around that notion of > beauty/truth--too often ethical purposes mean we don't or don't dare or > forget how to tell the whole story." Have just been discussing the debate > between Richard Posner and Martha Nussbaum on this point in one class and > discussing Marcia Homiak's article on Aristotelian ethics and art in > "Virtue and the Skills of Ordinary Life" and it occurred to me at some > point yesterday that probably one of the reasons Posner and others so > insist on a separation between aesthetics and ethics is that they are > concerned we not, per Aristotle, instrumentalize aesthetics. It should not > be a means to an end, but an end in itself. A has this distinction between > goal-oriented activities ("doing") versus activities that are a pleasure in > themselves ("activity") -- with the latter being, overall, the key to both > an ethical life and an aesthetic life: extending "activity" as much as > possible is key to flourishing. Posner is NOT an Aristotelian. But of > course A abrogates that concern -- in that he speaks of the aesthetic as > the exercise of skills (both in the artist and in the recipient) that are > the basis of virtue, so that "beauty" for him is "arete" (excellence in > action), not as a thing/artifact to be fetishized (beauty). The Homiak is a > really neat article. For Aristotle, then, beauty is truly a verb. :) > Precisely because he refuses to instrumentalize the good: the good is its > own pleasure. In the now and the here. Not in some Mississipian future > nestled inside women's bodies. I think this is hard, in a Kantian world, to > understand. When people think "ethics" they think duty and > instrumentalization and lack of enjoyment. > > And OH!!!: thank you for the Spahr suggestion. I've read her _This > Connection of Everyone with Lungs_ and two of her other shorter chapbooks > -- and really enjoy her work, and will look into including the one you > suggest! Thank you! > > Gabe (hope I matched your shorter email!). :) > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Fri Nov 11 18:56:00 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 23:56:00 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: <26159027.1321055336757.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <26159027.1321055336757.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Mark--and Gabe: I can't watch the video at work, but it does seem to me that to extrapolate based on sheer numbers does not make sense. I don't want to start up this argument all over again, but it does not seem as if one can necessarily argue that we have managed to act on our better natures in any consistent or structured fashion. On the contrary--one of the strange things about the Holocaust is how abruptly and utterly a society which has been generally been considered "among the most civilized" was able to go completely mad; and we have seen that pattern repeated. For example, Rwanda, pre-genocide was no means the worst off nation in Africa. I think this is where the idea of negative capability really resonates for me--the notion of how people can often go far beyond-exceed--any resonable bounds of cruelty as Regan and Goneril do in King Lear... Well, it is latish here--and not thinking as clearly as I might be-- But exactly why I am so unable to embrace any doctrine of improvability with--well "innocent gusto", much as I believe simultaneously it is impossible to give up on that notion altogether.... S. Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 18:48:56 -0500 From: junction at earthlink.net To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Pinker talks about the reduction inm percentages of those who die in wars as there are larger countries and fewer borders to fight over, or more countries with high levels of ethnic homgeneity. Once India and Pakistan are partitioned at a cost of a million and a half dead, six decades of repression in Pakistan and several more wars there's no need to do it again. QED. He also talks about the reduction in most places of state violence against their own populations, particularly in lower rates of executions, and a lowering of rates of lethal crimes as rates of poverty decline and greater homogeneity within countries. His time frame is centuries. Of course, one reason fewer die of violence is that more survive what would until recently have been fatal wounds. And a great many live with no fear of violence except from the government and pretty harsh repression. Extrapolating from his figures is to my mind shockingly dumb, and most of the social scientists who have reviewed his work come up considerably less optimistic than either he or Gabe. Humans still seem to have few qualms about extinguishing whole populations when convenient, and even in the US rampant anti-Muslim sentiment threatens to explode in many places. You talked a few messages ago about a parallel with religioethnic backgrounds. I'm Jewish. Maybe enough said. Best, Mark -----Original Message----- From: sheila black Sent: Nov 11, 2011 6:09 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Dear Gabriel: Please don't apologize--the only reason I probably get back to you faster is I probably do not work as hard at my job as you do in yours--or I have more dead time between! Well, anyway, I am hoping to successfully keep putting my e-mails on a stringent diet so they get slimmer and slimmer as I think we have probably covered the main points of our disagreement/agreement. It might be enough to just say I am of a decidedly more pessimist turn of mind than you--which surprises me a little because in my daily life I tend to come off as quite the pollyanna myself (to the sometimes annoyance of those around me). But I think it is true. For instance--I would love to know, given the general horrors of the past century what Pinker could really mean by "violence has declined?" And yet I won't argue. What I have to agree on is the distinction you make--well done!--between the mystical experience and the "instrumentalizing of it." Also, I have to confess, I am very taken with the whole discussion of aesthetics and ethics--and goal-oriented versus a-pleasure-in-themselves activities. I do think those distinctions are important, and I like as a sort of improving motto (one particularly designed for poets and other such useless people) the notion of saying to myself at regular intervals: "I must not instrumentalize aesthetics." Perhaps I shall try saying that to myself every morning as I perform what is so charmingly termed in the much-beloved children's book Babar the Elephant, my "setting up exercises." Though this is completely irrelevant to all the discussions we have been having (but fits perhaps the notion of lightness when it comes to aesthetic/ethical matters); I have always been utterly moved (sentimentally I know given the Colonial subtext of Babar books and the later over-inflated Babar industry--as Mark has ably pointed out, it is a complex world) by the fact that Jean de Brunhoff illustrated, wrote down (his wife had made up the story for their children, I believe) those books to cheer up his family as he slowly wasted away from TB in one of those immortally dreary Swiss sanatoriums. And yet the books are so hopeful--so silly even! Which I have come to believe is the quality I most admire--a kind of cosmic silliness, in the face of, etc., which I daresay is one way--though not the only surely--aesthetics can actually prove useful. I'm happy you like some of my suggestions--I think you--or if not you certainly your students--will get a great kick of the Spahr book if you decide to use it. Best, :) (: Sheila Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:52:48 -0600 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Sheila, Sorry it's taken me a few days to get back to you. Got really busy at work again. I can see why you wd think I'm in to de-mystifying, but am not someone who believes/wants, at all, to deny the importance of nouminal/mystical experiences -- I only question the stuff done with such experiences: taking such experiences and then pretending to know things we don't/can't know (stories/cosmologies about the supposed transcendental, the poet as a special being who utters precious speech, etc), rather than using those experiences to better all relationships humans are involved in (human and human/animal). What most often happens, it seems, is these experiences -- which are in fact common -- are taken to be special and belonging to certain persons. Just lectured yesterday on chpt 2 of Bourdieu's _The Field of Cultural Production_, in which he examines, in part, this very issue wrt the fetish of "transgressive" artists. "I think I have less faith than you by far in the ability of groups of people to analyze anything altogether objectively and learn from it...." I get why you wd write that! But I am not a pollyanna, by any means -- but I know we've done a pretty good job overall at doing this, to the extent that we forget what it was like not so long ago. I really wd urge anyone curious about this to read Pinker's _The Better Angels of Our Nature: How Violence Has Declined_. So "anything" is, for me, an overstatement. And I am persuaded by Pinker's thesis. Humans are very good at organizing around what they care about. We just need to expand the circle of what we care about and carefully apply ourselves to that. Lot of societies do this better than the US: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ7LzE3u7Bw I have not read Kenzaboro Oe, no. But will add him to the already amazing list you've suggested so far (and which I *will* follow up on). The meeting you describe about XLH in the hospital was hard to read about. And I understand your wariness better now, as such a meeting is harrowing just to read about. "So who am I to say you are not right about the slaughter of the animals?" And: "Yet I also know that there are many right-to-lifers I tend to strenuously disagree with who feel the same about the hordes of the unborn." And in reading that I am reminded of the recent case in Mississippi attempting to extend "personhood" to fertilized eggs. So, insofar as both the Mississippi evangelicals and animals rights movements are both trying to persuade us of the value of widening the circle of empathy to include others, there are homologies, yes. The difference is of course that one side is talking about potential beings only, the colonization of the female body, the removal of bodily and mental sovereignty from any pregnant woman -- and the gripping of the future, and all future beings, as an area of law; and as such, such a project is eugenicist. The other is about precisely the reduction of eugenics, to which animals are already subject, and the abrogation of the eugenic and instrumentalized treatment of all beings, with a specific focus on according sovereignty to the present beings already here. So, one increases instrumentalization of beings, and one seeks to reduce it. On this I totally agree: "I don't disagree with you about the idea that phenomena of mind can be studied, nor that this should not be in some degree a purpose of art. I think the rub comes in around that notion of beauty/truth--too often ethical purposes mean we don't or don't dare or forget how to tell the whole story." Have just been discussing the debate between Richard Posner and Martha Nussbaum on this point in one class and discussing Marcia Homiak's article on Aristotelian ethics and art in "Virtue and the Skills of Ordinary Life" and it occurred to me at some point yesterday that probably one of the reasons Posner and others so insist on a separation between aesthetics and ethics is that they are concerned we not, per Aristotle, instrumentalize aesthetics. It should not be a means to an end, but an end in itself. A has this distinction between goal-oriented activities ("doing") versus activities that are a pleasure in themselves ("activity") -- with the latter being, overall, the key to both an ethical life and an aesthetic life: extending "activity" as much as possible is key to flourishing. Posner is NOT an Aristotelian. But of course A abrogates that concern -- in that he speaks of the aesthetic as the exercise of skills (both in the artist and in the recipient) that are the basis of virtue, so that "beauty" for him is "arete" (excellence in action), not as a thing/artifact to be fetishized (beauty). The Homiak is a really neat article. For Aristotle, then, beauty is truly a verb. :) Precisely because he refuses to instrumentalize the good: the good is its own pleasure. In the now and the here. Not in some Mississipian future nestled inside women's bodies. I think this is hard, in a Kantian world, to understand. When people think "ethics" they think duty and instrumentalization and lack of enjoyment. And OH!!!: thank you for the Spahr suggestion. I've read her _This Connection of Everyone with Lungs_ and two of her other shorter chapbooks -- and really enjoy her work, and will look into including the one you suggest! Thank you! Gabe (hope I matched your shorter email!). :) _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Fri Nov 11 18:57:21 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 23:57:21 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, , , , , , <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , , , , , , , , , Message-ID: Yes, but then we have Foucault and birth of the prison to argue for us that while that may appear to be true, the violence has simply turned inward.... Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:53:12 -0800 From: antrobin at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Sheila, Gabe, et al. I can't claim to have much to offer to this conversation but I will say that "violence has declined" seems pretty true to me. Just ask your nearest 12th century European average citizen. T On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 3:09 PM, sheila black wrote: Dear Gabriel: Please don't apologize--the only reason I probably get back to you faster is I probably do not work as hard at my job as you do in yours--or I have more dead time between! Well, anyway, I am hoping to successfully keep putting my e-mails on a stringent diet so they get slimmer and slimmer as I think we have probably covered the main points of our disagreement/agreement. It might be enough to just say I am of a decidedly more pessimist turn of mind than you--which surprises me a little because in my daily life I tend to come off as quite the pollyanna myself (to the sometimes annoyance of those around me). But I think it is true. For instance--I would love to know, given the general horrors of the past century what Pinker could really mean by "violence has declined?" And yet I won't argue. What I have to agree on is the distinction you make--well done!--between the mystical experience and the "instrumentalizing of it." Also, I have to confess, I am very taken with the whole discussion of aesthetics and ethics--and goal-oriented versus a-pleasure-in-themselves activities. I do think those distinctions are important, and I like as a sort of improving motto (one particularly designed for poets and other such useless people) the notion of saying to myself at regular intervals: "I must not instrumentalize aesthetics." Perhaps I shall try saying that to myself every morning as I perform what is so charmingly termed in the much-beloved children's book Babar the Elephant, my "setting up exercises." Though this is completely irrelevant to all the discussions we have been having (but fits perhaps the notion of lightness when it comes to aesthetic/ethical matters); I have always been utterly moved (sentimentally I know given the Colonial subtext of Babar books and the later over-inflated Babar industry--as Mark has ably pointed out, it is a complex world) by the fact that Jean de Brunhoff illustrated, wrote down (his wife had made up the story for their children, I believe) those books to cheer up his family as he slowly wasted away from TB in one of those immortally dreary Swiss sanatoriums. And yet the books are so hopeful--so silly even! Which I have come to believe is the quality I most admire--a kind of cosmic silliness, in the face of, etc., which I daresay is one way--though not the only surely--aesthetics can actually prove useful. I'm happy you like some of my suggestions--I think you--or if not you certainly your students--will get a great kick of the Spahr book if you decide to use it. Best, :) (: Sheila Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:52:48 -0600 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Sheila, Sorry it's taken me a few days to get back to you. Got really busy at work again. I can see why you wd think I'm in to de-mystifying, but am not someone who believes/wants, at all, to deny the importance of nouminal/mystical experiences -- I only question the stuff done with such experiences: taking such experiences and then pretending to know things we don't/can't know (stories/cosmologies about the supposed transcendental, the poet as a special being who utters precious speech, etc), rather than using those experiences to better all relationships humans are involved in (human and human/animal). What most often happens, it seems, is these experiences -- which are in fact common -- are taken to be special and belonging to certain persons. Just lectured yesterday on chpt 2 of Bourdieu's _The Field of Cultural Production_, in which he examines, in part, this very issue wrt the fetish of "transgressive" artists. "I think I have less faith than you by far in the ability of groups of people to analyze anything altogether objectively and learn from it...." I get why you wd write that! But I am not a pollyanna, by any means -- but I know we've done a pretty good job overall at doing this, to the extent that we forget what it was like not so long ago. I really wd urge anyone curious about this to read Pinker's _The Better Angels of Our Nature: How Violence Has Declined_. So "anything" is, for me, an overstatement. And I am persuaded by Pinker's thesis. Humans are very good at organizing around what they care about. We just need to expand the circle of what we care about and carefully apply ourselves to that. Lot of societies do this better than the US: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ7LzE3u7Bw I have not read Kenzaboro Oe, no. But will add him to the already amazing list you've suggested so far (and which I *will* follow up on). The meeting you describe about XLH in the hospital was hard to read about. And I understand your wariness better now, as such a meeting is harrowing just to read about. "So who am I to say you are not right about the slaughter of the animals?" And: "Yet I also know that there are many right-to-lifers I tend to strenuously disagree with who feel the same about the hordes of the unborn." And in reading that I am reminded of the recent case in Mississippi attempting to extend "personhood" to fertilized eggs. So, insofar as both the Mississippi evangelicals and animals rights movements are both trying to persuade us of the value of widening the circle of empathy to include others, there are homologies, yes. The difference is of course that one side is talking about potential beings only, the colonization of the female body, the removal of bodily and mental sovereignty from any pregnant woman -- and the gripping of the future, and all future beings, as an area of law; and as such, such a project is eugenicist. The other is about precisely the reduction of eugenics, to which animals are already subject, and the abrogation of the eugenic and instrumentalized treatment of all beings, with a specific focus on according sovereignty to the present beings already here. So, one increases instrumentalization of beings, and one seeks to reduce it. On this I totally agree: "I don't disagree with you about the idea that phenomena of mind can be studied, nor that this should not be in some degree a purpose of art. I think the rub comes in around that notion of beauty/truth--too often ethical purposes mean we don't or don't dare or forget how to tell the whole story." Have just been discussing the debate between Richard Posner and Martha Nussbaum on this point in one class and discussing Marcia Homiak's article on Aristotelian ethics and art in "Virtue and the Skills of Ordinary Life" and it occurred to me at some point yesterday that probably one of the reasons Posner and others so insist on a separation between aesthetics and ethics is that they are concerned we not, per Aristotle, instrumentalize aesthetics. It should not be a means to an end, but an end in itself. A has this distinction between goal-oriented activities ("doing") versus activities that are a pleasure in themselves ("activity") -- with the latter being, overall, the key to both an ethical life and an aesthetic life: extending "activity" as much as possible is key to flourishing. Posner is NOT an Aristotelian. But of course A abrogates that concern -- in that he speaks of the aesthetic as the exercise of skills (both in the artist and in the recipient) that are the basis of virtue, so that "beauty" for him is "arete" (excellence in action), not as a thing/artifact to be fetishized (beauty). The Homiak is a really neat article. For Aristotle, then, beauty is truly a verb. :) Precisely because he refuses to instrumentalize the good: the good is its own pleasure. In the now and the here. Not in some Mississipian future nestled inside women's bodies. I think this is hard, in a Kantian world, to understand. When people think "ethics" they think duty and instrumentalization and lack of enjoyment. And OH!!!: thank you for the Spahr suggestion. I've read her _This Connection of Everyone with Lungs_ and two of her other shorter chapbooks -- and really enjoy her work, and will look into including the one you suggest! Thank you! Gabe (hope I matched your shorter email!). :) _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 18:59:51 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 18:59:51 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <29436658.1321055991825.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 19:17:53 2011 From: antrobin at gmail.com (Anthony Robinson) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 16:17:53 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sheila, Well, okay. But I guess this has a lot to do with our particular framing of the idea of violence. If we are talking kick-ass Sean Bean style kill people violence, well, we are certainly safer now than we were a millennium ago. As far as turning inward, I'm not sure that it's as easy to quantify. So I'm a searcher on this question. Where I disagree with Gabe (whom I love and respect) is that our attitudes toward animals and how we use them somehow feeds this. I don't think it does. And maybe I just say this because I love to eat pigs. T On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 3:57 PM, sheila black wrote: > Yes, but then we have Foucault and birth of the prison to argue for us > that while that may *appear* to be true, the violence has simply turned > inward.... > > ------------------------------ > Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 15:53:12 -0800 > From: antrobin at gmail.com > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > Sheila, Gabe, et al. > > I can't claim to have much to offer to this conversation but I will say > that "violence has declined" seems pretty true to me. Just ask your > nearest 12th century European average citizen. > > T > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 3:09 PM, sheila black wrote: > > Dear Gabriel: > > Please don't apologize--the only reason I probably get back to you faster > is I probably do not work as hard at my job as you do in yours--or I have > more dead time between! Well, anyway, I am hoping to successfully keep > putting my e-mails on a stringent diet so they get slimmer and slimmer as I > think we have probably covered the main points of our > disagreement/agreement. It might be enough to just say I am of a decidedly > more pessimist turn of mind than you--which surprises me a little because > in my daily life I tend to come off as quite the pollyanna myself (to the > sometimes annoyance of those around me). But I think it is true. For > instance--I would love to know, given the general horrors of the past > century what Pinker could really mean by "violence has declined?" And yet > I won't argue. What I have to agree on is the distinction you make--well > done!--between the mystical experience and the "instrumentalizing of it." > Also, I have to confess, I am very taken with the whole discussion of > aesthetics and ethics--and goal-oriented versus a-pleasure-in-themselves > activities. I do think those distinctions are important, and I like as a > sort of improving motto (one particularly designed for poets and other such > useless people) the notion of saying to myself at regular intervals: "I > must not instrumentalize aesthetics." Perhaps I shall try saying* that*to myself every morning as I perform what is so charmingly termed in the > much-beloved children's book *Babar the Elephant*, my "setting up > exercises." Though this is completely irrelevant to all the discussions we > have been having (but fits perhaps the notion of lightness when it comes to > aesthetic/ethical matters); I have always been utterly moved (sentimentally > I know given the Colonial subtext of Babar books and the later > over-inflated Babar industry--as Mark has ably pointed out, it is a complex > world) by the fact that Jean de Brunhoff illustrated, wrote down (his wife > had made up the story for their children, I believe) those books to cheer > up his family as he slowly wasted away from TB in one of those immortally > dreary Swiss sanatoriums. And yet the books are so hopeful--so silly > even! Which I have come to believe is the quality I most admire--a kind of > cosmic silliness, in the face of, etc., which I daresay is one way--though > not the only surely--aesthetics can actually prove useful. > > I'm happy you like some of my suggestions--I think you--or if not you > certainly your students--will get a great kick of the Spahr book if you > decide to use it. > > Best, :) (: > > Sheila > > > ------------------------------ > Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:52:48 -0600 > From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > Sheila, > > Sorry it's taken me a few days to get back to you. Got really busy at work > again. > > I can see why you wd think I'm in to de-mystifying, but am not someone who > believes/wants, at all, to deny the importance of nouminal/mystical > experiences -- I only question the stuff done with such experiences: taking > such experiences and then pretending to know things we don't/can't know > (stories/cosmologies about the supposed transcendental, the poet as a > special being who utters precious speech, etc), rather than using those > experiences to better all relationships humans are involved in (human and > human/animal). What most often happens, it seems, is these experiences -- > which are in fact common -- are taken to be special and belonging to > certain persons. Just lectured yesterday on chpt 2 of Bourdieu's _The Field > of Cultural Production_, in which he examines, in part, this very issue wrt > the fetish of "transgressive" artists. > > "I think I have less faith than you by far in the ability of groups of > people to analyze anything altogether objectively and learn from it...." I > get why you wd write that! But I am not a pollyanna, by any means -- but I > know we've done a pretty good job overall at doing this, to the extent that > we forget what it was like not so long ago. I really wd urge anyone curious > about this to read Pinker's _The Better Angels of Our Nature: How Violence > Has Declined_. So "anything" is, for me, an overstatement. And I am > persuaded by Pinker's thesis. Humans are very good at organizing around > what they care about. We just need to expand the circle of what we care > about and carefully apply ourselves to that. Lot of societies do this > better than the US: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ7LzE3u7Bw > > I have not read Kenzaboro Oe, no. But will add him to the already amazing > list you've suggested so far (and which I *will* follow up on). The meeting > you describe about XLH in the hospital was hard to read about. And I > understand your wariness better now, as such a meeting is harrowing just to > read about. "So who am I to say you are not right about the slaughter of > the animals?" And: "Yet I also know that there are many right-to-lifers I > tend to strenuously disagree with who feel the same about the hordes of the > unborn." And in reading that I am reminded of the recent case in > Mississippi attempting to extend "personhood" to fertilized eggs. > > So, insofar as both the Mississippi evangelicals and animals rights > movements are both trying to persuade us of the value of widening the > circle of empathy to include others, there are homologies, yes. > > The difference is of course that one side is talking about potential > beings only, the colonization of the female body, the removal of bodily and > mental sovereignty from any pregnant woman -- and the gripping of the > future, and all future beings, as an area of law; and as such, such a > project is eugenicist. The other is about precisely the reduction of > eugenics, to which animals are already subject, and the abrogation of the > eugenic and instrumentalized treatment of all beings, with a specific focus > on according sovereignty to the present beings already here. > > So, one increases instrumentalization of beings, and one seeks to reduce > it. > > On this I totally agree: "I don't disagree with you about the idea that > phenomena of mind can be studied, nor that this should not be in some > degree a purpose of art. I think the rub comes in around that notion of > beauty/truth--too often ethical purposes mean we don't or don't dare or > forget how to tell the whole story." Have just been discussing the debate > between Richard Posner and Martha Nussbaum on this point in one class and > discussing Marcia Homiak's article on Aristotelian ethics and art in > "Virtue and the Skills of Ordinary Life" and it occurred to me at some > point yesterday that probably one of the reasons Posner and others so > insist on a separation between aesthetics and ethics is that they are > concerned we not, per Aristotle, instrumentalize aesthetics. It should not > be a means to an end, but an end in itself. A has this distinction between > goal-oriented activities ("doing") versus activities that are a pleasure in > themselves ("activity") -- with the latter being, overall, the key to both > an ethical life and an aesthetic life: extending "activity" as much as > possible is key to flourishing. Posner is NOT an Aristotelian. But of > course A abrogates that concern -- in that he speaks of the aesthetic as > the exercise of skills (both in the artist and in the recipient) that are > the basis of virtue, so that "beauty" for him is "arete" (excellence in > action), not as a thing/artifact to be fetishized (beauty). The Homiak is a > really neat article. For Aristotle, then, beauty is truly a verb. :) > Precisely because he refuses to instrumentalize the good: the good is its > own pleasure. In the now and the here. Not in some Mississipian future > nestled inside women's bodies. I think this is hard, in a Kantian world, to > understand. When people think "ethics" they think duty and > instrumentalization and lack of enjoyment. > > And OH!!!: thank you for the Spahr suggestion. I've read her _This > Connection of Everyone with Lungs_ and two of her other shorter chapbooks > -- and really enjoy her work, and will look into including the one you > suggest! Thank you! > > Gabe (hope I matched your shorter email!). :) > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 19:25:48 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:25:48 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Message-ID: <9706062.1321057548905.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 19:47:18 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 19:47:18 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas Message-ID: <12848075.1321058839203.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I halved the recipe. You wind up with something of the consistency of poi. Tasty, but barely edible. So, I made patties, dredged in a little flower, and sauteed in olive oil. Great potato pancakes! Where's the apple sauce? -----Original Message----- >From: Patricia F Anderson >Sent: Nov 11, 2011 1:32 PM >To: NewPoetry List >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Peas > >Jerry, you'll probably have to write your own terza rima, however I >can supply a few other examples. > >Here is a blogpost from JJ on the topic. > > > - Poetical Cookbook http://mirlyn.lib.umich.edu/Record/004613796 > >Poetical Cook-Book (book): > > >Poetical Cookbook (app): > > >Another blogpost, differently authored: > > >Two large potatoes, passed through kitchen sieve, >Unwonted softness to the salad give; >Of mordant mustard add a single spoon, >Distrust the condiment that bites so soon; >But deem it not, though man of herbs, a fault, >To add a double quantity of salt; >Three times the spoon with oil of Lucca crown, >And once with vinegar, procured from town; >True flavor needs it, and your poet begs >The pounded yellow of two well-boiled eggs; >Let onion atoms lurk within the bowl, >And, scarce suspected, animate the whole; >And lastly, on the flavored compound toss >A magic teaspoon of anchovy sauce. >Then, though green turtle fail, through ven'son's tough, >And ham and turkey are not boiled enough, >Serenely full, the epicure may say, >"Fate cannot harm me, I have dined to-day!" > - Reverend Sidney Smith of the late 18th century England > >A blog of recipes in verse: > > >A rustic baked potato recipe poem: > > >A couple of my own. > >Corn Chowder: > > >Creation of Meatloaf: > > >Other poem/cookbooks. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Enjoy! > > - Patricia > >On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:52 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: >> How about a couple of examples, Patricia? (I'd love a recipe for foccacia in >> terza rima, or blank verse instructions for Spotted Dick.) >> >> Jerry >> >> On 11/11/2011 11:44 AM, Patricia F Anderson wrote: >> >> I was talking about food and recipe poems with JJ Jacobson, who is the >> culinary curator of the University of Michigan Clements Library. In >> that collection reside an astonishing number of verse cookbooks, which >> was a very popular way to help people remember the recipes and >> addressing issues of literacy during the 1800s. JJ is also a poet, and >> we've been collecting and sharing food / recipe / cooking poems, and >> there are already existing published collections as well. >> >> On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Jerry McGuire >> wrote: >> >> I spent part of this morning trying to find a couple of great recipe poems >> written by the irrepressible Bill Sylvester (but I don't have his books with >> me) some years ago. As for me, when I quit smoking (New Year's Day, 1970) I >> immediately started to put on weight. So I obsessed myself onto a diet. It's >> pretty funny (to me, the only one who cares) how loaded my poems of that >> time became with food imagery, most of it unconscious. And I once wrote a >> burrito poem for a friend who was commissioned (yes, there was money >> involved) to read her poems at the opening of a Mexican restaurant. Here's >> another I wrote for a pastry-chef friend of mine (and if you don't have a >> pastry-chef friend, you don't know what you're missing): >> >> >> >> On 11/11/2011 10:46 AM, junction at earthlink.net wrote: >> >> Sorry Bill. >> >> I love eating, and I'm a good cook, but I don't think I've ever written a >> food poem. It would be an interesting thread, though I expect that it would >> offend non-carnivores. >> >> Best, >> >> Mark >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > >-- >Patricia Anderson / SL: Perplexity Peccable >pfa at umich.edu OR patriciafanderson at gmail.com >Emerging Technologies Librarian, Health Sciences Libraries, University >of Michigan, 1135 East Catherine, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 >"Google can give you 1,000 answers to your question. A librarian will >give you the right one." Anonymous. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From junction at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 20:22:29 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 20:22:29 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas Message-ID: <4083719.1321060949551.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I had some boneless pork chiops in the house. Sauteed garlic and serrano peppers (thin sliced) in oil and butter), added hot paprika (I like my food to bite back), browned chops, added chopped cilantro, maple syrup and white vinegar, covered and cooked. Spooned liquid over the potato pancakes. Is taste a poem? -----Original Message----- >From: junction at earthlink.net >Sent: Nov 11, 2011 7:47 PM >To: NewPoetry List >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Peas > >I halved the recipe. You wind up with something of the consistency of poi. Tasty, but barely edible. So, I made patties, dredged in a little flower, and sauteed in olive oil. Great potato pancakes! Where's the apple sauce? > >-----Original Message----- >>From: Patricia F Anderson >>Sent: Nov 11, 2011 1:32 PM >>To: NewPoetry List >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Peas >> >>Jerry, you'll probably have to write your own terza rima, however I >>can supply a few other examples. >> >>Here is a blogpost from JJ on the topic. >> >> >> - Poetical Cookbook http://mirlyn.lib.umich.edu/Record/004613796 >> >>Poetical Cook-Book (book): >> >> >>Poetical Cookbook (app): >> >> >>Another blogpost, differently authored: >> >> >>Two large potatoes, passed through kitchen sieve, >>Unwonted softness to the salad give; >>Of mordant mustard add a single spoon, >>Distrust the condiment that bites so soon; >>But deem it not, though man of herbs, a fault, >>To add a double quantity of salt; >>Three times the spoon with oil of Lucca crown, >>And once with vinegar, procured from town; >>True flavor needs it, and your poet begs >>The pounded yellow of two well-boiled eggs; >>Let onion atoms lurk within the bowl, >>And, scarce suspected, animate the whole; >>And lastly, on the flavored compound toss >>A magic teaspoon of anchovy sauce. >>Then, though green turtle fail, through ven'son's tough, >>And ham and turkey are not boiled enough, >>Serenely full, the epicure may say, >>"Fate cannot harm me, I have dined to-day!" >> - Reverend Sidney Smith of the late 18th century England >> >>A blog of recipes in verse: >> >> >>A rustic baked potato recipe poem: >> >> >>A couple of my own. >> >>Corn Chowder: >> >> >>Creation of Meatloaf: >> >> >>Other poem/cookbooks. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>Enjoy! >> >> - Patricia >> >>On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:52 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: >>> How about a couple of examples, Patricia? (I'd love a recipe for foccacia in >>> terza rima, or blank verse instructions for Spotted Dick.) >>> >>> Jerry >>> >>> On 11/11/2011 11:44 AM, Patricia F Anderson wrote: >>> >>> I was talking about food and recipe poems with JJ Jacobson, who is the >>> culinary curator of the University of Michigan Clements Library. In >>> that collection reside an astonishing number of verse cookbooks, which >>> was a very popular way to help people remember the recipes and >>> addressing issues of literacy during the 1800s. JJ is also a poet, and >>> we've been collecting and sharing food / recipe / cooking poems, and >>> there are already existing published collections as well. >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Jerry McGuire >>> wrote: >>> >>> I spent part of this morning trying to find a couple of great recipe poems >>> written by the irrepressible Bill Sylvester (but I don't have his books with >>> me) some years ago. As for me, when I quit smoking (New Year's Day, 1970) I >>> immediately started to put on weight. So I obsessed myself onto a diet. It's >>> pretty funny (to me, the only one who cares) how loaded my poems of that >>> time became with food imagery, most of it unconscious. And I once wrote a >>> burrito poem for a friend who was commissioned (yes, there was money >>> involved) to read her poems at the opening of a Mexican restaurant. Here's >>> another I wrote for a pastry-chef friend of mine (and if you don't have a >>> pastry-chef friend, you don't know what you're missing): >>> >>> >>> >>> On 11/11/2011 10:46 AM, junction at earthlink.net wrote: >>> >>> Sorry Bill. >>> >>> I love eating, and I'm a good cook, but I don't think I've ever written a >>> food poem. It would be an interesting thread, though I expect that it would >>> offend non-carnivores. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> >>-- >>Patricia Anderson / SL: Perplexity Peccable >>pfa at umich.edu OR patriciafanderson at gmail.com >>Emerging Technologies Librarian, Health Sciences Libraries, University >>of Michigan, 1135 East Catherine, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 >>"Google can give you 1,000 answers to your question. A librarian will >>give you the right one." Anonymous. >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From junction at earthlink.net Fri Nov 11 20:32:35 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 20:32:35 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas Message-ID: <29796689.1321061556165.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Oh, I also squeezed half a lime into the pan after browning, and salt to taste. -----Original Message----- >From: junction at earthlink.net >Sent: Nov 11, 2011 8:22 PM >To: NewPoetry List >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Peas > >I had some boneless pork chiops in the house. Sauteed garlic and serrano peppers (thin sliced) in oil and butter), added hot paprika (I like my food to bite back), browned chops, added chopped cilantro, maple syrup and white vinegar, covered and cooked. Spooned liquid over the potato pancakes. > >Is taste a poem? > >-----Original Message----- >>From: junction at earthlink.net >>Sent: Nov 11, 2011 7:47 PM >>To: NewPoetry List >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Peas >> >>I halved the recipe. You wind up with something of the consistency of poi. Tasty, but barely edible. So, I made patties, dredged in a little flower, and sauteed in olive oil. Great potato pancakes! Where's the apple sauce? >> >>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Patricia F Anderson >>>Sent: Nov 11, 2011 1:32 PM >>>To: NewPoetry List >>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Peas >>> >>>Jerry, you'll probably have to write your own terza rima, however I >>>can supply a few other examples. >>> >>>Here is a blogpost from JJ on the topic. >>> >>> >>> - Poetical Cookbook http://mirlyn.lib.umich.edu/Record/004613796 >>> >>>Poetical Cook-Book (book): >>> >>> >>>Poetical Cookbook (app): >>> >>> >>>Another blogpost, differently authored: >>> >>> >>>Two large potatoes, passed through kitchen sieve, >>>Unwonted softness to the salad give; >>>Of mordant mustard add a single spoon, >>>Distrust the condiment that bites so soon; >>>But deem it not, though man of herbs, a fault, >>>To add a double quantity of salt; >>>Three times the spoon with oil of Lucca crown, >>>And once with vinegar, procured from town; >>>True flavor needs it, and your poet begs >>>The pounded yellow of two well-boiled eggs; >>>Let onion atoms lurk within the bowl, >>>And, scarce suspected, animate the whole; >>>And lastly, on the flavored compound toss >>>A magic teaspoon of anchovy sauce. >>>Then, though green turtle fail, through ven'son's tough, >>>And ham and turkey are not boiled enough, >>>Serenely full, the epicure may say, >>>"Fate cannot harm me, I have dined to-day!" >>> - Reverend Sidney Smith of the late 18th century England >>> >>>A blog of recipes in verse: >>> >>> >>>A rustic baked potato recipe poem: >>> >>> >>>A couple of my own. >>> >>>Corn Chowder: >>> >>> >>>Creation of Meatloaf: >>> >>> >>>Other poem/cookbooks. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Enjoy! >>> >>> - Patricia >>> >>>On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:52 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: >>>> How about a couple of examples, Patricia? (I'd love a recipe for foccacia in >>>> terza rima, or blank verse instructions for Spotted Dick.) >>>> >>>> Jerry >>>> >>>> On 11/11/2011 11:44 AM, Patricia F Anderson wrote: >>>> >>>> I was talking about food and recipe poems with JJ Jacobson, who is the >>>> culinary curator of the University of Michigan Clements Library. In >>>> that collection reside an astonishing number of verse cookbooks, which >>>> was a very popular way to help people remember the recipes and >>>> addressing issues of literacy during the 1800s. JJ is also a poet, and >>>> we've been collecting and sharing food / recipe / cooking poems, and >>>> there are already existing published collections as well. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Jerry McGuire >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I spent part of this morning trying to find a couple of great recipe poems >>>> written by the irrepressible Bill Sylvester (but I don't have his books with >>>> me) some years ago. As for me, when I quit smoking (New Year's Day, 1970) I >>>> immediately started to put on weight. So I obsessed myself onto a diet. It's >>>> pretty funny (to me, the only one who cares) how loaded my poems of that >>>> time became with food imagery, most of it unconscious. And I once wrote a >>>> burrito poem for a friend who was commissioned (yes, there was money >>>> involved) to read her poems at the opening of a Mexican restaurant. Here's >>>> another I wrote for a pastry-chef friend of mine (and if you don't have a >>>> pastry-chef friend, you don't know what you're missing): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 11/11/2011 10:46 AM, junction at earthlink.net wrote: >>>> >>>> Sorry Bill. >>>> >>>> I love eating, and I'm a good cook, but I don't think I've ever written a >>>> food poem. It would be an interesting thread, though I expect that it would >>>> offend non-carnivores. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Mark >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>-- >>>Patricia Anderson / SL: Perplexity Peccable >>>pfa at umich.edu OR patriciafanderson at gmail.com >>>Emerging Technologies Librarian, Health Sciences Libraries, University >>>of Michigan, 1135 East Catherine, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 >>>"Google can give you 1,000 answers to your question. A librarian will >>>give you the right one." Anonymous. >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 21:50:59 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 20:50:59 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Sheila, Dieting emails! Well, in reply to the query about Pinker ("I would love to know, given the general horrors of the past century what Pinker could really mean by "violence has declined?"), I truly don't mean to be coy when I say it's such an amazingly well-researched book, bearing data from so many sources, and looking at the ways cultures transmit bad news and take for granted the good news, and carefully gainsaying the notions that the 20th century was the bloodiest on record etc and the common impulse to say "we've never had it so bad," that it takes careful study to gainsay it -- and he provides it with such a level sustained reasonable way from so many angles that I'm kind of blown away. So in great part what he's done is to aggregate the tons of data already out there and put it into an 800 page book that really is astoundingly eye-opening -- and I think I haven't read something this eye-opening in a long time. Thanks on the instrumentalizing thing. :) I'll have to see if I can summarize more clearly what Marcia Homiak was saying in that essay (I know I did a terrible job in my previous). Love Babar. I remember reading some of them to my daughter. Didn't know that about his TB. Is fascinating and saddening to learn that. Gabe What I have to agree on is the distinction you make--well done!--between the mystical experience and the "instrumentalizing of it." Also, I have to confess, I am very taken with the whole discussion of aesthetics and ethics--and goal-oriented versus a-pleasure-in-themselves activities. I do think those distinctions are important, and I like as a sort of improving motto (one particularly designed for poets and other such useless people) the notion of saying to myself at regular intervals: "I must not instrumentalize aesthetics." Perhaps I shall try saying* that* to myself every morning as I perform what is so charmingly termed in the much-beloved children's book *Babar the Elephant*, my "setting up exercises." Though this is completely irrelevant to all the discussions we have been having (but fits perhaps the notion of lightness when it comes to aesthetic/ethical matters); I have always been utterly moved (sentimentally I know given the Colonial subtext of Babar books and the later over-inflated Babar industry--as Mark has ably pointed out, it is a complex world) by the fact that Jean de Brunhoff illustrated, wrote down (his wife had made up the story for their children, I believe) those books to cheer up his family as he slowly wasted away from TB in one of those immortally dreary Swiss sanatoriums. And yet the books are so hopeful--so silly even! Which I have come to believe is the quality I most admire--a kind of cosmic silliness, in the face of, etc., which I daresay is one way--though not the only surely--aesthetics can actually prove useful. > > I'm happy you like some of my suggestions--I think you--or if not you > certainly your students--will get a great kick of the Spahr book if you > decide to use it. > > Best, :) (: > > Sheila > > > ------------------------------ > Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:52:48 -0600 > > From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > Sheila, > > Sorry it's taken me a few days to get back to you. Got really busy at work > again. > > I can see why you wd think I'm in to de-mystifying, but am not someone who > believes/wants, at all, to deny the importance of nouminal/mystical > experiences -- I only question the stuff done with such experiences: taking > such experiences and then pretending to know things we don't/can't know > (stories/cosmologies about the supposed transcendental, the poet as a > special being who utters precious speech, etc), rather than using those > experiences to better all relationships humans are involved in (human and > human/animal). What most often happens, it seems, is these experiences -- > which are in fact common -- are taken to be special and belonging to > certain persons. Just lectured yesterday on chpt 2 of Bourdieu's _The Field > of Cultural Production_, in which he examines, in part, this very issue wrt > the fetish of "transgressive" artists. > > "I think I have less faith than you by far in the ability of groups of > people to analyze anything altogether objectively and learn from it...." I > get why you wd write that! But I am not a pollyanna, by any means -- but I > know we've done a pretty good job overall at doing this, to the extent that > we forget what it was like not so long ago. I really wd urge anyone curious > about this to read Pinker's _The Better Angels of Our Nature: How Violence > Has Declined_. So "anything" is, for me, an overstatement. And I am > persuaded by Pinker's thesis. Humans are very good at organizing around > what they care about. We just need to expand the circle of what we care > about and carefully apply ourselves to that. Lot of societies do this > better than the US: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ7LzE3u7Bw > > I have not read Kenzaboro Oe, no. But will add him to the already amazing > list you've suggested so far (and which I *will* follow up on). The meeting > you describe about XLH in the hospital was hard to read about. And I > understand your wariness better now, as such a meeting is harrowing just to > read about. "So who am I to say you are not right about the slaughter of > the animals?" And: "Yet I also know that there are many right-to-lifers I > tend to strenuously disagree with who feel the same about the hordes of the > unborn." And in reading that I am reminded of the recent case in > Mississippi attempting to extend "personhood" to fertilized eggs. > > So, insofar as both the Mississippi evangelicals and animals rights > movements are both trying to persuade us of the value of widening the > circle of empathy to include others, there are homologies, yes. > > The difference is of course that one side is talking about potential > beings only, the colonization of the female body, the removal of bodily and > mental sovereignty from any pregnant woman -- and the gripping of the > future, and all future beings, as an area of law; and as such, such a > project is eugenicist. The other is about precisely the reduction of > eugenics, to which animals are already subject, and the abrogation of the > eugenic and instrumentalized treatment of all beings, with a specific focus > on according sovereignty to the present beings already here. > > So, one increases instrumentalization of beings, and one seeks to reduce > it. > > On this I totally agree: "I don't disagree with you about the idea that > phenomena of mind can be studied, nor that this should not be in some > degree a purpose of art. I think the rub comes in around that notion of > beauty/truth--too often ethical purposes mean we don't or don't dare or > forget how to tell the whole story." Have just been discussing the debate > between Richard Posner and Martha Nussbaum on this point in one class and > discussing Marcia Homiak's article on Aristotelian ethics and art in > "Virtue and the Skills of Ordinary Life" and it occurred to me at some > point yesterday that probably one of the reasons Posner and others so > insist on a separation between aesthetics and ethics is that they are > concerned we not, per Aristotle, instrumentalize aesthetics. It should not > be a means to an end, but an end in itself. A has this distinction between > goal-oriented activities ("doing") versus activities that are a pleasure in > themselves ("activity") -- with the latter being, overall, the key to both > an ethical life and an aesthetic life: extending "activity" as much as > possible is key to flourishing. Posner is NOT an Aristotelian. But of > course A abrogates that concern -- in that he speaks of the aesthetic as > the exercise of skills (both in the artist and in the recipient) that are > the basis of virtue, so that "beauty" for him is "arete" (excellence in > action), not as a thing/artifact to be fetishized (beauty). The Homiak is a > really neat article. For Aristotle, then, beauty is truly a verb. :) > Precisely because he refuses to instrumentalize the good: the good is its > own pleasure. In the now and the here. Not in some Mississipian future > nestled inside women's bodies. I think this is hard, in a Kantian world, to > understand. When people think "ethics" they think duty and > instrumentalization and lack of enjoyment. > > And OH!!!: thank you for the Spahr suggestion. I've read her _This > Connection of Everyone with Lungs_ and two of her other shorter chapbooks > -- and really enjoy her work, and will look into including the one you > suggest! Thank you! > > Gabe (hope I matched your shorter email!). :) > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carol.dorf at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 23:21:00 2011 From: carol.dorf at gmail.com (carol dorf) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 20:21:00 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology In-Reply-To: <8CE6EDC35125293-1B44-29E40@webmail-d165.sysops.aol.com> References: <4EBCFBCF0200006E000A07F6@gwdm1.valpo.edu> <8CE6EDC35125293-1B44-29E40@webmail-d165.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I like this solution -- the losers will be the students in the introductory courses, who will miss some of lineage of the poetry they are reading, particularly in the case of Ginsberg. On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 2:55 PM, wrote: > Here's a solution...print a few semi-blank pages, except for fair use... > > ALLEN GINSBERG (1926-1997) > > [But for greed, here you would be reading poetry by Allen Ginsberg] > > Moloch! Moloch! > > -- > SYLVIA PLATH (1932-1963) > > [Avarice prevents you from reading Sylvia Plath's poems here] > > Money?s new-minted in this fat purse. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Edward Byrne > To: new-poetry > Sent: Fri, Nov 11, 2011 6:49 am > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology > > I received a review copy and have read through the anthology, which > includes a long introduction by Dove. I am a supporter of Dove's poetry, as > my critical writings in the past can verify, though I do side with Vendler > on some of her complaints about the contents of the anthology. > > However, on the exclusion of Plath and Ginsberg, Dove (she also singles > out Sterling Brown) is very specific in her introduction as she explains > their absence and begs her readers to "cut her some slack." According to > Dove, the fees for rights to poems by Plath and Ginsberg were astronomical, > and the two were excluded for budgetary reasons: "I could not spend roughly > one-fourth of the entire budget on a small fraction of the anthology, and I > could not betray the trust of those who had granted me affordable fees > under the sine qua non that I would not abuse their largesse by shifting > the savings to satisfy extreme demands." In her shot at some publishers, > Dove wishes she could have worked directly with Ginsberg, since "the legacy > of the dead can be enslaved by the living." As someone who has dealt with > publishers on reprint fees for an anthology, I totally sympathize with Dove > on this point. > > --Ed > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > Edward Byrne > Department of English > 322 Huegli Hall > Valparaiso University > Valparaiso, IN 46383-6493 > > E-mail: edward.byrne at valpo.edu > Web Page: > http://edwardbyrne.shutterfly.com/ > Audio Chapbook: > http://wschap4.wordpress.com/ > Latest Book: > http://www.turningpointbooks.com/byrne-tinted.html > Personal Blog: http://www.edwardbyrnepoetry.blogspot.com/ > > Editor, Valparaiso Poetry Review > E-mail: vpr at valpo.edu > VPR Web Page: http://www.valpo.edu/vpr/ > VPR Editor's Blog: > http://edwardbyrne.blogspot.com/ > Co-Editor, Valparaiso Fiction Review: > http://scholar.valpo.edu/vfr > E-mail: vfr at valpo.edu > Office Phone: (219) 464-5278 > Twitter: http://twitter.com/valpopoetry > Fax: (219) 464-5511 > > -------------------------------------------------- > > >>> stephen russell 11/11/11 9:48 AM >>> > Is there *any* responsible critic who argues that Plath is *both* a > lesser poet and a less influential poet than Teasdale? Or, for heaven's > sake, that even Diane Wakoski is better than Plath? > > Certainly no sane critic would make that argument. I got hooked on Plath > (all the way back (20th century)) ... after reading the extended metaphor > below -- > > *Metaphors by Sylvia > Plath1 * > *I'm a riddle in nine syllables. > An elephant, a ponderous house, > A melon strolling on two tendrils. > O red fruit, ivory, fine timbers! > This loaf's big with its yeasty rising. > Money's new-minted in this fat purse. > I'm a means, a stage, a cow in calf. > I've eaten a bag of green apples, > Boarded the train there's no getting off > **.* * * > > > --- On *Fri, 11/11/11, David Graham-RC * wrote: > > > From: David Graham-RC > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Friday, November 11, 2011, 10:16 AM > > Yes, in the brief excerpt I read (not sure I'm willing to pay 5 bucks > for the whole review!) Vendler expresses a common opinion: "No century > in the evolution of poetry in English ever had 175 poets worth reading, so > why are we being asked to sample so many poets of little or no lasting > value?" > > One might call that the Elite Lament, or William Logan Fallacy, for the > reason Al Maginnes notes. An anthology of any kind is, of course, a > snapshot of current taste. Most if not all anthologies quickly seem dated, > and the track record of editors getting things "right" in terms of future > taste is abysmal. Otherwise all our anthologies of 19th Century American > poetry would be stuffed with Whittier, Bryant, Holmes, Longfellow, and even > lesser lights, with no Dickinson, Whitman, Crane, Melville, and certainly > no Trumbull Stickney. > > Nothing looks sillier faster, I would argue, than one of those > anthologies that tries to go deep, and sample more poems by fewer poets. > That's when you end up with 20 pages of Louis Untermeyer and no Langston > Hughes. Such anthologies have their place when addressing a theme, or > attempting a correction of received wisdom, or calling attention to the > unjustly neglected, and so forth. When they attempt magisterial surveys of > a whole period, they're bound to fail, and not later but sooner. Of > course, Vendler herself famously produced exactly such a anthology, *The > Harvard Book of Contemporary American Poetry* back in the 1980s, which > includes good poems by good poets but is utterly useless as an historical > survey. > > Dove's sin, as I said before, is not in being too inclusive; it's in > leaving out poets like Plath and Ginsberg. I cannot fathom her reasoning. > It's certainly within her rights to consider, say, Sexton a better poet > than Plath. A looney opinion, to my mind, but within an anthologist's > prerogative if she wishes to present "my favorite 20 poets" or something. > But in a book which clearly aims to go very wide rather than deep, and > present a valuable historical snapshot, what possible justification can > there be for including no Plath AT ALL, when you are going to sample poets > such as Angelina Weld Grimke, Edgar Lee Masters, and Sara Teasdale? Is > there *any* responsible critic who argues that Plath is *both* a lesser > poet and a less influential poet than Teasdale? Or, for heaven's sake, > that even Diane Wakoski is better than Plath? > > Likewise with leaving out Ginsberg. His omission alone invalidates > Dove's effort as a 20th Century survey. It would be like a 19th C. > anthology with no Dickinson. > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Nov 11, 2011, at 8:18 AM, AlMaginnes at aol.com wrote: > > The fact is we don't know which poets from the 20th century will still be > read 300 years or a 1000 years from now. We probably have a good idea or > think we do, but how many anthologists in 1890 or 1900 would have bet that > Emily Dickinson would be acclaimed one of the two most important American > poets of the 19th century. The whole idea of an anthology, as I understand > it, is to offer a broad taste of what's available. Then the curious can > track down more Elizabeth Bishop or Vachel Lindsay or whoever rocks their > boat that morning. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: stephen russell > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Fri, Nov 11, 2011 9:04 am > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology > > A preview of coming attractions (from Helen V): > > Multicultural inclusiveness prevails: some 175 poets are represented. No > century in the evolution of poetry in English ever had 175 poets worth > reading, so why are we being asked to sample so many poets of little or no > lasting value? Anthologists may now be extending a too general welcome. > Selectivity has been condemned as ?elitism,? and a hundred flowers are > invited to bloom. People who wouldn?t be able to take on the long-term > commitment of a novel find a longed-for release in writing a poem. And it > seems rude to denigrate the heartfelt lines of people moved to verse. It is > popular to say (and it is in part true) that in literary matters tastes > differ, and that every critic can be wrong. But there is a certain > objectivity bestowed by the mere passage of time, and its sifting of wheat > from chaff: Which of Dove?s 175 poets will have staying power, and which > will seep back into the archives of sociology? > > --- On *Thu, 11/10/11, junction at earthlink.net *wrote: > > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope_productions at hotmail.com Sat Nov 12 00:35:09 2011 From: elemenope_productions at hotmail.com (R Dillon) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 05:35:09 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, , , , , , <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , , , , , , , , , Message-ID: It is inappropriate to use New Poetry for political propaganda. I am not permitted to refutethis tedious RadLlib drivel and therefore I won't. But, it isn't appropriate for Mr. Guddingto commandeer this website to stage his ideological anti-American anti-Constitutional views. If he has complaints why doesn't he take them to Heinz Kerry and Jay Rockefellerwho work night and day to undermine the Constitution with George "Goldfinger" Soros so that they can ensuretheir onward march towards world government. I have received orders from the supervisorsof this website to cease and desist my views. But, every time I do this, RadLib Progressive Bill Ayers typessimply move into the void. This is exactly the same thing that happened twelve years ago withthis fellow. OWS loons can shut down Republican campaign rallies in S.C., but when Tea Party Patriotsmove on them to stop raping and killing each other in Ducatti Park, they call us racists and fascists.And when the medical authorities observe that TB is spreading among Gudding's followers in theAtlanta Occupy Anarko HooverObamaVilles, they complain that germs are an endangered species.I don't know what's more absurd and distasteful, Mr. Gudding's propaganda or hispoems about colostomy bags hanging from his bib overalls.Date: FrNov 2011 20:50:59 -0600 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Dear Sheila, Dieting emails! Well, in reply to the query about Pinker ("I would love to know, given the general horrors of the past century what Pinker could really mean by "violence has declined?"), I truly don't mean to be coy when I say it's such an amazingly well-researched book, bearing data from so many sources, and looking at the ways cultures transmit bad news and take for granted the good news, and carefully gainsaying the notions that the 20th century was the bloodiest on record etc and the common impulse to say "we've never had it so bad," that it takes careful study to gainsay it -- and he provides it with such a level sustained reasonable way from so many angles that I'm kind of blown away. So in great part what he's done is to aggregate the tons of data already out there and put it into an 800 page book that really is astoundingly eye-opening -- and I think I haven't read something this eye-opening in a long time. Thanks on the instrumentalizing thing. :) I'll have to see if I can summarize more clearly what Marcia Homiak was saying in that essay (I know I did a terrible job in my previous). Love Babar. I remember reading some of them to my daughter. Didn't know that about his TB. Is fascinating and saddening to learn that. Gabe What I have to agree on is the distinction you make--well done!--between the mystical experience and the "instrumentalizing of it." Also, I have to confess, I am very taken with the whole discussion of aesthetics and ethics--and goal-oriented versus a-pleasure-in-themselves activities. I do think those distinctions are important, and I like as a sort of improving motto (one particularly designed for poets and other such useless people) the notion of saying to myself at regular intervals: "I must not instrumentalize aesthetics." Perhaps I shall try saying that to myself every morning as I perform what is so charmingly termed in the much-beloved children's book Babar the Elephant, my "setting up exercises." Though this is completely irrelevant to all the discussions we have been having (but fits perhaps the notion of lightness when it comes to aesthetic/ethical matters); I have always been utterly moved (sentimentally I know given the Colonial subtext of Babar books and the later over-inflated Babar industry--as Mark has ably pointed out, it is a complex world) by the fact that Jean de Brunhoff illustrated, wrote down (his wife had made up the story for their children, I believe) those books to cheer up his family as he slowly wasted away from TB in one of those immortally dreary Swiss sanatoriums. And yet the books are so hopeful--so silly even! Which I have come to believe is the quality I most admire--a kind of cosmic silliness, in the face of, etc., which I daresay is one way--though not the only surely--aesthetics can actually prove useful. I'm happy you like some of my suggestions--I think you--or if not you certainly your students--will get a great kick of the Spahr book if you decide to use it. Best, :) (: Sheila Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:52:48 -0600 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Sheila, Sorry it's taken me a few days to get back to you. Got really busy at work again. I can see why you wd think I'm in to de-mystifying, but am not someone who believes/wants, at all, to deny the importance of nouminal/mystical experiences -- I only question the stuff done with such experiences: taking such experiences and then pretending to know things we don't/can't know (stories/cosmologies about the supposed transcendental, the poet as a special being who utters precious speech, etc), rather than using those experiences to better all relationships humans are involved in (human and human/animal). What most often happens, it seems, is these experiences -- which are in fact common -- are taken to be special and belonging to certain persons. Just lectured yesterday on chpt 2 of Bourdieu's _The Field of Cultural Production_, in which he examines, in part, this very issue wrt the fetish of "transgressive" artists. "I think I have less faith than you by far in the ability of groups of people to analyze anything altogether objectively and learn from it...." I get why you wd write that! But I am not a pollyanna, by any means -- but I know we've done a pretty good job overall at doing this, to the extent that we forget what it was like not so long ago. I really wd urge anyone curious about this to read Pinker's _The Better Angels of Our Nature: How Violence Has Declined_. So "anything" is, for me, an overstatement. And I am persuaded by Pinker's thesis. Humans are very good at organizing around what they care about. We just need to expand the circle of what we care about and carefully apply ourselves to that. Lot of societies do this better than the US: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ7LzE3u7Bw I have not read Kenzaboro Oe, no. But will add him to the already amazing list you've suggested so far (and which I *will* follow up on). The meeting you describe about XLH in the hospital was hard to read about. And I understand your wariness better now, as such a meeting is harrowing just to read about. "So who am I to say you are not right about the slaughter of the animals?" And: "Yet I also know that there are many right-to-lifers I tend to strenuously disagree with who feel the same about the hordes of the unborn." And in reading that I am reminded of the recent case in Mississippi attempting to extend "personhood" to fertilized eggs. So, insofar as both the Mississippi evangelicals and animals rights movements are both trying to persuade us of the value of widening the circle of empathy to include others, there are homologies, yes. The difference is of course that one side is talking about potential beings only, the colonization of the female body, the removal of bodily and mental sovereignty from any pregnant woman -- and the gripping of the future, and all future beings, as an area of law; and as such, such a project is eugenicist. The other is about precisely the reduction of eugenics, to which animals are already subject, and the abrogation of the eugenic and instrumentalized treatment of all beings, with a specific focus on according sovereignty to the present beings already here. So, one increases instrumentalization of beings, and one seeks to reduce it. On this I totally agree: "I don't disagree with you about the idea that phenomena of mind can be studied, nor that this should not be in some degree a purpose of art. I think the rub comes in around that notion of beauty/truth--too often ethical purposes mean we don't or don't dare or forget how to tell the whole story." Have just been discussing the debate between Richard Posner and Martha Nussbaum on this point in one class and discussing Marcia Homiak's article on Aristotelian ethics and art in "Virtue and the Skills of Ordinary Life" and it occurred to me at some point yesterday that probably one of the reasons Posner and others so insist on a separation between aesthetics and ethics is that they are concerned we not, per Aristotle, instrumentalize aesthetics. It should not be a means to an end, but an end in itself. A has this distinction between goal-oriented activities ("doing") versus activities that are a pleasure in themselves ("activity") -- with the latter being, overall, the key to both an ethical life and an aesthetic life: extending "activity" as much as possible is key to flourishing. Posner is NOT an Aristotelian. But of course A abrogates that concern -- in that he speaks of the aesthetic as the exercise of skills (both in the artist and in the recipient) that are the basis of virtue, so that "beauty" for him is "arete" (excellence in action), not as a thing/artifact to be fetishized (beauty). The Homiak is a really neat article. For Aristotle, then, beauty is truly a verb. :) Precisely because he refuses to instrumentalize the good: the good is its own pleasure. In the now and the here. Not in some Mississipian future nestled inside women's bodies. I think this is hard, in a Kantian world, to understand. When people think "ethics" they think duty and instrumentalization and lack of enjoyment. And OH!!!: thank you for the Spahr suggestion. I've read her _This Connection of Everyone with Lungs_ and two of her other shorter chapbooks -- and really enjoy her work, and will look into including the one you suggest! Thank you! Gabe (hope I matched your shorter email!). :) _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 01:55:08 2011 From: antrobin at gmail.com (Anthony Robinson) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 22:55:08 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Uh. April Fools? Oh. On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 9:35 PM, R Dillon wrote: > It is inappropriate to use New Poetry for political propaganda. I am not > permitted to refute > this tedious RadLlib drivel and therefore I won't. But, it isn't > appropriate for Mr. Gudding > to commandeer this website to stage his ideological anti-American > anti-Constitutional > views. If he has complaints why doesn't he take them to Heinz Kerry and > Jay Rockefeller > who work night and day to undermine the Constitution with George > "Goldfinger" Soros so that they can ensure > their onward march towards world government. I have received orders from > the supervisors > of this website to cease and desist my views. But, every time I do this, > RadLib Progressive Bill Ayers types > simply move into the void. This is exactly the same thing that happened > twelve years ago with > this fellow. OWS loons can shut down Republican campaign rallies in S.C., > but when Tea Party Patriots > move on them to stop raping and killing each other in Ducatti Park, they > call us racists and fascists. > And when the medical authorities observe that TB is spreading among > Gudding's followers in the > Atlanta Occupy Anarko HooverObamaVilles, they complain that germs are an > endangered species. > I don't know what's more absurd and distasteful, Mr. Gudding's propaganda > or his > poems about colostomy bags hanging from his bib overalls. > ------------------------------ > Date: FrNov 2011 20:50:59 -0600 > > From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > Dear Sheila, > > Dieting emails! Well, in reply to the query about Pinker ("I would love > to know, given the general horrors of the past century what Pinker could > really mean by "violence has declined?"), I truly don't mean to be coy when > I say it's such an amazingly well-researched book, bearing data from so > many sources, and looking at the ways cultures transmit bad news and take > for granted the good news, and carefully gainsaying the notions that the > 20th century was the bloodiest on record etc and the common impulse to say > "we've never had it so bad," that it takes careful study to gainsay it -- > and he provides it with such a level sustained reasonable way from so many > angles that I'm kind of blown away. So in great part what he's done is to > aggregate the tons of data already out there and put it into an 800 page > book that really is astoundingly eye-opening -- and I think I haven't read > something this eye-opening in a long time. > > Thanks on the instrumentalizing thing. :) > > I'll have to see if I can summarize more clearly what Marcia Homiak was > saying in that essay (I know I did a terrible job in my previous). > > Love Babar. I remember reading some of them to my daughter. Didn't know > that about his TB. Is fascinating and saddening to learn that. > > Gabe > > What I have to agree on is the distinction you make--well done!--between > the mystical experience and the "instrumentalizing of it." Also, I have to > confess, I am very taken with the whole discussion of aesthetics and > ethics--and goal-oriented versus a-pleasure-in-themselves activities. I do > think those distinctions are important, and I like as a sort of improving > motto (one particularly designed for poets and other such useless people) > the notion of saying to myself at regular intervals: "I must not > instrumentalize aesthetics." Perhaps I shall try saying* that* to myself > every morning as I perform what is so charmingly termed in the much-beloved > children's book *Babar the Elephant*, my "setting up exercises." Though > this is completely irrelevant to all the discussions we have been having > (but fits perhaps the notion of lightness when it comes to > aesthetic/ethical matters); I have always been utterly moved (sentimentally > I know given the Colonial subtext of Babar books and the later > over-inflated Babar industry--as Mark has ably pointed out, it is a complex > world) by the fact that Jean de Brunhoff illustrated, wrote down (his wife > had made up the story for their children, I believe) those books to cheer > up his family as he slowly wasted away from TB in one of those immortally > dreary Swiss sanatoriums. And yet the books are so hopeful--so silly > even! Which I have come to believe is the quality I most admire--a kind of > cosmic silliness, in the face of, etc., which I daresay is one way--though > not the only surely--aesthetics can actually prove useful. > > > I'm happy you like some of my suggestions--I think you--or if not you > certainly your students--will get a great kick of the Spahr book if you > decide to use it. > > Best, :) (: > > Sheila > > > ------------------------------ > Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:52:48 -0600 > > From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption > > Sheila, > > Sorry it's taken me a few days to get back to you. Got really busy at work > again. > > I can see why you wd think I'm in to de-mystifying, but am not someone who > believes/wants, at all, to deny the importance of nouminal/mystical > experiences -- I only question the stuff done with such experiences: taking > such experiences and then pretending to know things we don't/can't know > (stories/cosmologies about the supposed transcendental, the poet as a > special being who utters precious speech, etc), rather than using those > experiences to better all relationships humans are involved in (human and > human/animal). What most often happens, it seems, is these experiences -- > which are in fact common -- are taken to be special and belonging to > certain persons. Just lectured yesterday on chpt 2 of Bourdieu's _The Field > of Cultural Production_, in which he examines, in part, this very issue wrt > the fetish of "transgressive" artists. > > "I think I have less faith than you by far in the ability of groups of > people to analyze anything altogether objectively and learn from it...." I > get why you wd write that! But I am not a pollyanna, by any means -- but I > know we've done a pretty good job overall at doing this, to the extent that > we forget what it was like not so long ago. I really wd urge anyone curious > about this to read Pinker's _The Better Angels of Our Nature: How Violence > Has Declined_. So "anything" is, for me, an overstatement. And I am > persuaded by Pinker's thesis. Humans are very good at organizing around > what they care about. We just need to expand the circle of what we care > about and carefully apply ourselves to that. Lot of societies do this > better than the US: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ7LzE3u7Bw > > I have not read Kenzaboro Oe, no. But will add him to the already amazing > list you've suggested so far (and which I *will* follow up on). The meeting > you describe about XLH in the hospital was hard to read about. And I > understand your wariness better now, as such a meeting is harrowing just to > read about. "So who am I to say you are not right about the slaughter of > the animals?" And: "Yet I also know that there are many right-to-lifers I > tend to strenuously disagree with who feel the same about the hordes of the > unborn." And in reading that I am reminded of the recent case in > Mississippi attempting to extend "personhood" to fertilized eggs. > > So, insofar as both the Mississippi evangelicals and animals rights > movements are both trying to persuade us of the value of widening the > circle of empathy to include others, there are homologies, yes. > > The difference is of course that one side is talking about potential > beings only, the colonization of the female body, the removal of bodily and > mental sovereignty from any pregnant woman -- and the gripping of the > future, and all future beings, as an area of law; and as such, such a > project is eugenicist. The other is about precisely the reduction of > eugenics, to which animals are already subject, and the abrogation of the > eugenic and instrumentalized treatment of all beings, with a specific focus > on according sovereignty to the present beings already here. > > So, one increases instrumentalization of beings, and one seeks to reduce > it. > > On this I totally agree: "I don't disagree with you about the idea that > phenomena of mind can be studied, nor that this should not be in some > degree a purpose of art. I think the rub comes in around that notion of > beauty/truth--too often ethical purposes mean we don't or don't dare or > forget how to tell the whole story." Have just been discussing the debate > between Richard Posner and Martha Nussbaum on this point in one class and > discussing Marcia Homiak's article on Aristotelian ethics and art in > "Virtue and the Skills of Ordinary Life" and it occurred to me at some > point yesterday that probably one of the reasons Posner and others so > insist on a separation between aesthetics and ethics is that they are > concerned we not, per Aristotle, instrumentalize aesthetics. It should not > be a means to an end, but an end in itself. A has this distinction between > goal-oriented activities ("doing") versus activities that are a pleasure in > themselves ("activity") -- with the latter being, overall, the key to both > an ethical life and an aesthetic life: extending "activity" as much as > possible is key to flourishing. Posner is NOT an Aristotelian. But of > course A abrogates that concern -- in that he speaks of the aesthetic as > the exercise of skills (both in the artist and in the recipient) that are > the basis of virtue, so that "beauty" for him is "arete" (excellence in > action), not as a thing/artifact to be fetishized (beauty). The Homiak is a > really neat article. For Aristotle, then, beauty is truly a verb. :) > Precisely because he refuses to instrumentalize the good: the good is its > own pleasure. In the now and the here. Not in some Mississipian future > nestled inside women's bodies. I think this is hard, in a Kantian world, to > understand. When people think "ethics" they think duty and > instrumentalization and lack of enjoyment. > > And OH!!!: thank you for the Spahr suggestion. I've read her _This > Connection of Everyone with Lungs_ and two of her other shorter chapbooks > -- and really enjoy her work, and will look into including the one you > suggest! Thank you! > > Gabe (hope I matched your shorter email!). :) > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Nov 12 07:55:16 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 07:55:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology In-Reply-To: References: <4EBCFBCF0200006E000A07F6@gwdm1.valpo.edu><8CE6EDC35125293-1B44-29E40@webmail-d165.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <53B55E2BDABB4F968341971713DACAE3@BobHP> From: carol dorf Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:21 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology I like this solution -- the losers will be the students in the introductory courses, who will miss some of lineage of the poetry they are reading, particularly in the case of Ginsberg. 1. They?ll be missing a lot more than a little ?lineage? in any college introductory course, regardless of the texts used. 2. If they aren?t interested enough to do the small amount of outside reading (in this case, just about any other standard anthology of 20th-century poetry, what difference does it make? --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Nov 12 08:20:36 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 08:20:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology In-Reply-To: <53B55E2BDABB4F968341971713DACAE3@BobHP> References: <4EBCFBCF0200006E000A07F6@gwdm1.valpo.edu><8CE6EDC35125293-1B44-29E40@webmail-d165.sysops.aol.com> <53B55E2BDABB4F968341971713DACAE3@BobHP> Message-ID: From: bob grumman Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 7:55 AM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology From: carol dorf Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:21 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology?Revision I like this solution -- the losers will be the students in the introductory courses, who will miss some of lineage of the poetry they are reading, particularly in the case of Ginsberg. 1. They?ll be missing a lot more than a little ?lineage? in any college introductory course, regardless of the texts used. 2. If they aren?t interested enough to do the small amount of outside reading (in this case, just about any other standard anthology of 20th-century poetry) needed to become familiar with all the certified lineages, what difference does it make? --Bob -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patriciafanderson at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 08:11:12 2011 From: patriciafanderson at gmail.com (Patricia F Anderson) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 08:11:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas In-Reply-To: <4083719.1321060949551.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <4083719.1321060949551.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Taste *IS* a poem! I use cooking as a metaphor for many topics in my teaching. I figure everyone eats. Oddly, not everyone can taste, though. We took a new faculty member to lunch last year. He and I ended up ordering the same meal. It was wonderful. I said something like, "Oh, my, that whisper of cinnamon & maple with the onion on the seared brussel sprouts really mellows the flavor." He looked at me oddly and replied, "How can you taste that? I can tell it tastes good, but that's all." I think it is similar to music, where the untrained ear hears the melody and can tell that the harmony and rhythm support it nicely, while the trained ear can isolate the oboe line and the trumpet line and sing along with a supporting part or even write them down. So in poetry, we poets hear not just the words, images, surface emotions but also how the impact is generated, the rhythms, the rhymes, the slant rhymes, the subtle puns, the alliteration, the layering of meaning and image, the themes, the uncoupled open-ended tensions, the line that weaves through the poem and is never overtly stated. - Patricia On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 8:22 PM, wrote: > I had some boneless pork chiops in the house. Sauteed garlic and serrano peppers (thin sliced) in oil and butter), added hot paprika (I like my food to bite back), browned chops, added chopped cilantro, maple syrup and white vinegar, covered and cooked. Spooned liquid over the potato pancakes. > > Is taste a poem? > > -----Original Message----- >>From: junction at earthlink.net >>Sent: Nov 11, 2011 7:47 PM >>To: NewPoetry List >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Peas >> >>I halved the recipe. You wind up with something of the consistency of poi. Tasty, but barely edible. So, I made patties, dredged in a little flower, and sauteed in olive oil. Great potato pancakes! Where's the apple sauce? >> >>-----Original Message----- >>>From: Patricia F Anderson >>>Sent: Nov 11, 2011 1:32 PM >>>To: NewPoetry List >>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Peas >>> >>>Jerry, you'll probably have to write your own terza rima, however I >>>can supply a few other examples. >>> >>>Here is a blogpost from JJ on the topic. >>> >>> >>> - Poetical Cookbook http://mirlyn.lib.umich.edu/Record/004613796 >>> >>>Poetical Cook-Book (book): >>> >>> >>>Poetical Cookbook (app): >>> >>> >>>Another blogpost, differently authored: >>> >>> >>>Two large potatoes, passed through kitchen sieve, >>>Unwonted softness to the salad give; >>>Of mordant mustard add a single spoon, >>>Distrust the condiment that bites so soon; >>>But deem it not, though man of herbs, a fault, >>>To add a double quantity of salt; >>>Three times the spoon with oil of Lucca crown, >>>And once with vinegar, procured from town; >>>True flavor needs it, and your poet begs >>>The pounded yellow of two well-boiled eggs; >>>Let onion atoms lurk within the bowl, >>>And, scarce suspected, animate the whole; >>>And lastly, on the flavored compound toss >>>A magic teaspoon of anchovy sauce. >>>Then, though green turtle fail, through ven'son's tough, >>>And ham and turkey are not boiled enough, >>>Serenely full, the epicure may say, >>>"Fate cannot harm me, I have dined to-day!" >>> - Reverend Sidney Smith of the late 18th century England >>> >>>A blog of recipes in verse: >>> >>> >>>A rustic baked potato recipe poem: >>> >>> >>>A couple of my own. >>> >>>Corn Chowder: >>> >>> >>>Creation of Meatloaf: >>> >>> >>>Other poem/cookbooks. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Enjoy! >>> >>> - Patricia >>> >>>On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:52 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: >>>> How about a couple of examples, Patricia? (I'd love a recipe for foccacia in >>>> terza rima, or blank verse instructions for Spotted Dick.) >>>> >>>> Jerry >>>> >>>> On 11/11/2011 11:44 AM, Patricia F Anderson wrote: >>>> >>>> I was talking about food and recipe poems with JJ Jacobson, who is the >>>> culinary curator of the University of Michigan Clements Library. In >>>> that collection reside an astonishing number of verse cookbooks, which >>>> was a very popular way to help people remember the recipes and >>>> addressing issues of literacy during the 1800s. JJ is also a poet, and >>>> we've been collecting and sharing food / recipe / cooking poems, and >>>> there are already existing published collections as well. >>>> >>>> On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Jerry McGuire >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I spent part of this morning trying to find a couple of great recipe poems >>>> written by the irrepressible Bill Sylvester (but I don't have his books with >>>> me) some years ago. As for me, when I quit smoking (New Year's Day, 1970) I >>>> immediately started to put on weight. So I obsessed myself onto a diet. It's >>>> pretty funny (to me, the only one who cares) how loaded my poems of that >>>> time became with food imagery, most of it unconscious. And I once wrote a >>>> burrito poem for a friend who was commissioned (yes, there was money >>>> involved) to read her poems at the opening of a Mexican restaurant. Here's >>>> another I wrote for a pastry-chef friend of mine (and if you don't have a >>>> pastry-chef friend, you don't know what you're missing): >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 11/11/2011 10:46 AM, junction at earthlink.net wrote: >>>> >>>> Sorry Bill. >>>> >>>> I love eating, and I'm a good cook, but I don't think I've ever written a >>>> food poem. It would be an interesting thread, though I expect that it would >>>> offend non-carnivores. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Mark >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>>-- >>>Patricia Anderson / SL: Perplexity Peccable >>>pfa at umich.edu OR patriciafanderson at gmail.com >>>Emerging Technologies Librarian, Health Sciences Libraries, University >>>of Michigan, 1135 East Catherine, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 >>>"Google can give you 1,000 answers to your question. A librarian will >>>give you the right one." Anonymous. >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Patricia Anderson / SL: Perplexity Peccable pfa at umich.edu OR patriciafanderson at gmail.com Emerging Technologies Librarian, Health Sciences Libraries, University of Michigan, 1135 East Catherine, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 "Google can give you 1,000 answers to your question. A librarian will give you the right one." Anonymous. From junction at earthlink.net Sat Nov 12 08:54:07 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 08:54:07 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas Message-ID: <32438977.1321106047624.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I lived in France for a while. Unless one is really intimate with someone you don't talk about work, or money, or politics at the table. You talk about the food. Even in critical terms--the difference between this St Estephe 2009 and the last, this crottin de Chavignol and the last. It's like chamber music for the taste buds. If I'd had some chives in the house I would have softened them with the chops. And rosemary would have been nice. I'm guessing your new faculty member doesn't cook. You never should have hired him. Best, Mark -----Original Message----- >From: Patricia F Anderson >Sent: Nov 12, 2011 8:11 AM >To: NewPoetry List >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Peas > >Taste *IS* a poem! I use cooking as a metaphor for many topics in my >teaching. I figure everyone eats. Oddly, not everyone can taste, >though. > >We took a new faculty member to lunch last year. He and I ended up >ordering the same meal. It was wonderful. I said something like, "Oh, >my, that whisper of cinnamon & maple with the onion on the seared >brussel sprouts really mellows the flavor." He looked at me oddly and >replied, "How can you taste that? I can tell it tastes good, but >that's all." > >I think it is similar to music, where the untrained ear hears the >melody and can tell that the harmony and rhythm support it nicely, >while the trained ear can isolate the oboe line and the trumpet line >and sing along with a supporting part or even write them down. > >So in poetry, we poets hear not just the words, images, surface >emotions but also how the impact is generated, the rhythms, the >rhymes, the slant rhymes, the subtle puns, the alliteration, the >layering of meaning and image, the themes, the uncoupled open-ended >tensions, the line that weaves through the poem and is never overtly >stated. > > - Patricia > >On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 8:22 PM, wrote: >> I had some boneless pork chiops in the house. Sauteed garlic and serrano peppers (thin sliced) in oil and butter), added hot paprika (I like my food to bite back), browned chops, added chopped cilantro, maple syrup and white vinegar, covered and cooked. Spooned liquid over the potato pancakes. >> >> Is taste a poem? >> >> -----Original Message----- >>>From: junction at earthlink.net >>>Sent: Nov 11, 2011 7:47 PM >>>To: NewPoetry List >>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Peas >>> >>>I halved the recipe. You wind up with something of the consistency of poi. Tasty, but barely edible. So, I made patties, dredged in a little flower, and sauteed in olive oil. Great potato pancakes! Where's the apple sauce? >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>>From: Patricia F Anderson >>>>Sent: Nov 11, 2011 1:32 PM >>>>To: NewPoetry List >>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Peas >>>> >>>>Jerry, you'll probably have to write your own terza rima, however I >>>>can supply a few other examples. >>>> >>>>Here is a blogpost from JJ on the topic. >>>> >>>> >>>> - Poetical Cookbook http://mirlyn.lib.umich.edu/Record/004613796 >>>> >>>>Poetical Cook-Book (book): >>>> >>>> >>>>Poetical Cookbook (app): >>>> >>>> >>>>Another blogpost, differently authored: >>>> >>>> >>>>Two large potatoes, passed through kitchen sieve, >>>>Unwonted softness to the salad give; >>>>Of mordant mustard add a single spoon, >>>>Distrust the condiment that bites so soon; >>>>But deem it not, though man of herbs, a fault, >>>>To add a double quantity of salt; >>>>Three times the spoon with oil of Lucca crown, >>>>And once with vinegar, procured from town; >>>>True flavor needs it, and your poet begs >>>>The pounded yellow of two well-boiled eggs; >>>>Let onion atoms lurk within the bowl, >>>>And, scarce suspected, animate the whole; >>>>And lastly, on the flavored compound toss >>>>A magic teaspoon of anchovy sauce. >>>>Then, though green turtle fail, through ven'son's tough, >>>>And ham and turkey are not boiled enough, >>>>Serenely full, the epicure may say, >>>>"Fate cannot harm me, I have dined to-day!" >>>> - Reverend Sidney Smith of the late 18th century England >>>> >>>>A blog of recipes in verse: >>>> >>>> >>>>A rustic baked potato recipe poem: >>>> >>>> >>>>A couple of my own. >>>> >>>>Corn Chowder: >>>> >>>> >>>>Creation of Meatloaf: >>>> >>>> >>>>Other poem/cookbooks. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>Enjoy! >>>> >>>> - Patricia >>>> >>>>On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:52 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: >>>>> How about a couple of examples, Patricia? (I'd love a recipe for foccacia in >>>>> terza rima, or blank verse instructions for Spotted Dick.) >>>>> >>>>> Jerry >>>>> >>>>> On 11/11/2011 11:44 AM, Patricia F Anderson wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I was talking about food and recipe poems with JJ Jacobson, who is the >>>>> culinary curator of the University of Michigan Clements Library. In >>>>> that collection reside an astonishing number of verse cookbooks, which >>>>> was a very popular way to help people remember the recipes and >>>>> addressing issues of literacy during the 1800s. JJ is also a poet, and >>>>> we've been collecting and sharing food / recipe / cooking poems, and >>>>> there are already existing published collections as well. >>>>> >>>>> On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Jerry McGuire >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I spent part of this morning trying to find a couple of great recipe poems >>>>> written by the irrepressible Bill Sylvester (but I don't have his books with >>>>> me) some years ago. As for me, when I quit smoking (New Year's Day, 1970) I >>>>> immediately started to put on weight. So I obsessed myself onto a diet. It's >>>>> pretty funny (to me, the only one who cares) how loaded my poems of that >>>>> time became with food imagery, most of it unconscious. And I once wrote a >>>>> burrito poem for a friend who was commissioned (yes, there was money >>>>> involved) to read her poems at the opening of a Mexican restaurant. Here's >>>>> another I wrote for a pastry-chef friend of mine (and if you don't have a >>>>> pastry-chef friend, you don't know what you're missing): >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 11/11/2011 10:46 AM, junction at earthlink.net wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Sorry Bill. >>>>> >>>>> I love eating, and I'm a good cook, but I don't think I've ever written a >>>>> food poem. It would be an interesting thread, though I expect that it would >>>>> offend non-carnivores. >>>>> >>>>> Best, >>>>> >>>>> Mark >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>-- >>>>Patricia Anderson / SL: Perplexity Peccable >>>>pfa at umich.edu OR patriciafanderson at gmail.com >>>>Emerging Technologies Librarian, Health Sciences Libraries, University >>>>of Michigan, 1135 East Catherine, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 >>>>"Google can give you 1,000 answers to your question. A librarian will >>>>give you the right one." Anonymous. >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > >-- >Patricia Anderson / SL: Perplexity Peccable >pfa at umich.edu OR patriciafanderson at gmail.com >Emerging Technologies Librarian, Health Sciences Libraries, University >of Michigan, 1135 East Catherine, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 >"Google can give you 1,000 answers to your question. A librarian will >give you the right one." Anonymous. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 12 09:21:25 2011 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 06:21:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] american persimmons In-Reply-To: <29796689.1321061556165.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <29796689.1321061556165.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1321107685.79578.YahooMailNeo@web160110.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Speaking of food, anyone know where I can mail order rare cultivars of persimmon, especially the American persimmon? You'd think the farmer's market in Blacksburg, VA would sell diospyros virginiana after the first frosts, but no go. Also looking for Tanenashi or any of the less usual goma varieties. But that's probably not till December. Amicalement, Alex -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 09:43:58 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 08:43:58 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology In-Reply-To: <53B55E2BDABB4F968341971713DACAE3@BobHP> References: <4EBCFBCF0200006E000A07F6@gwdm1.valpo.edu> <8CE6EDC35125293-1B44-29E40@webmail-d165.sysops.aol.com> <53B55E2BDABB4F968341971713DACAE3@BobHP> Message-ID: Bob needs to have his lineage certified. Can anyone please help with that? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175 http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 6:55 AM, bob grumman wrote: > > > *From:* carol dorf > *Sent:* Friday, November 11, 2011 11:21 PM > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology > > I like this solution -- the losers will be the students in the > introductory courses, who will miss some of lineage of the poetry they are > reading, particularly in the case of Ginsberg. > > 1. They?ll be missing a lot more than a little ?lineage? in any college > introductory course, regardless of the texts used. > > 2. If they aren?t interested enough to do the small amount of outside > reading (in this case, just about *any* other standard anthology of > 20th-century poetry, what difference does it make? > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 12 09:56:04 2011 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 06:56:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology In-Reply-To: References: <4EBCFBCF0200006E000A07F6@gwdm1.valpo.edu> <8CE6EDC35125293-1B44-29E40@webmail-d165.sysops.aol.com> <53B55E2BDABB4F968341971713DACAE3@BobHP> Message-ID: <1321109764.83989.YahooMailNeo@web160108.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hal, Didn't you know that Bob is the 17th duc de Gruman? The spelling's changed, but same family, noblesse d'epee, extremely old, distinguished themselves under the Merovingian kings. You'll have to ask him for the heraldric details, though. Amicalement, Alex ? www.alexdickow.net/blog/ ? les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ________________________________ From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry List Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 9:43 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology Bob needs to have his lineage certified. Can anyone please help with that? ?? ? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com Truck:?https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175 http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 6:55 AM, bob grumman wrote: ?? >From: carol dorf >Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:21 PM >To: NewPoetry List >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology >?I like this solution -- the losers will be the students in the introductory courses, who will miss some of lineage of the poetry they are reading, particularly in the case of Ginsberg. >? >1.? They?ll be missing a lot more than a little ?lineage? in any college introductory course, regardless of the texts used. >? >2.? If they aren?t interested enough to do the small amount of outside reading (in this case, just about any other standard anthology of 20th-century poetry, what difference does it make?? >--Bob >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 10:21:00 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 09:21:00 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology In-Reply-To: <1321109764.83989.YahooMailNeo@web160108.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <4EBCFBCF0200006E000A07F6@gwdm1.valpo.edu> <8CE6EDC35125293-1B44-29E40@webmail-d165.sysops.aol.com> <53B55E2BDABB4F968341971713DACAE3@BobHP> <1321109764.83989.YahooMailNeo@web160108.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm sure Bob will be glad to hear that. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175 http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 8:56 AM, Alexander Dickow wrote: > Hal, > Didn't you know that Bob is the 17th duc de Gruman? The spelling's > changed, but same family, noblesse d'epee, extremely old, distinguished > themselves under the Merovingian kings. You'll have to ask him for the > heraldric details, though. > Amicalement, > Alex > > www.alexdickow.net/blog/ > > les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin > merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Halvard Johnson > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Sent:* Saturday, November 12, 2011 9:43 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology > > Bob needs to have his lineage certified. Can anyone please help with that? > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > > Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175 > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Remains To Be Seen > *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) > ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) > , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems > *, *Mainly Black > , *Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; **Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 6:55 AM, bob grumman wrote: > > > > *From:* carol dorf > *Sent:* Friday, November 11, 2011 11:21 PM > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology > > I like this solution -- the losers will be the students in the > introductory courses, who will miss some of lineage of the poetry they are > reading, particularly in the case of Ginsberg. > > 1. They?ll be missing a lot more than a little ?lineage? in any college > introductory course, regardless of the texts used. > > 2. If they aren?t interested enough to do the small amount of outside > reading (in this case, just about *any* other standard anthology of > 20th-century poetry, what difference does it make? > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 12 10:33:33 2011 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 07:33:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology In-Reply-To: References: <4EBCFBCF0200006E000A07F6@gwdm1.valpo.edu> <8CE6EDC35125293-1B44-29E40@webmail-d165.sysops.aol.com> <53B55E2BDABB4F968341971713DACAE3@BobHP> <1321109764.83989.YahooMailNeo@web160108.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1321112013.16134.YahooMailNeo@web160118.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Ah, l'insolence de la roture! ;) Amicalement, Alex ? www.alexdickow.net/blog/ ? les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ________________________________ From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry List Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 10:21 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology I'm sure Bob will be glad to hear that. ?? ? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com Truck:?https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175 http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 8:56 AM, Alexander Dickow wrote: Hal, >Didn't you know that Bob is the 17th duc de Gruman? The spelling's changed, but same family, noblesse d'epee, extremely old, distinguished themselves under the Merovingian kings. You'll have to ask him for the heraldric details, though. >Amicalement, >Alex > >? >www.alexdickow.net/blog/ >? >les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin >merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet > > > >________________________________ > From: Halvard Johnson >To: NewPoetry List >Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 9:43 AM > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology > > >Bob needs to have his lineage certified. Can anyone please help with that? > >?? ? > > >Serving the tri-state area. > > >Hal >Halvard Johnson >================ > >halvard at gmail.com > > >Truck:?https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175 >http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ >http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ >http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ >http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > > >Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; >Transparencies & Projections > > > > > > >On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 6:55 AM, bob grumman wrote: > >?? >>From: carol dorf >>Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:21 PM >>To: NewPoetry List >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology >>?I like this solution -- the losers will be the students in the introductory courses, who will miss some of lineage of the poetry they are reading, particularly in the case of Ginsberg. >>? >>1.? They?ll be missing a lot more than a little ?lineage? in any college introductory course, regardless of the texts used. >>? >>2.? If they aren?t interested enough to do the small amount of outside reading (in this case, just about any other standard anthology of 20th-century poetry, what difference does it make?? >>--Bob >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Nov 12 10:47:26 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 10:47:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas In-Reply-To: <12848075.1321058839203.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <12848075.1321058839203.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <8CE6F6982CB7E40-93C-25320@webmail-d030.sysops.aol.com> Going Wrong The fish are dreadful. They are brought up the mountain in the dawn most days, beautiful and alien and cold from night under the sea, the grand rooms fading from their flat eyes, Soft machinery of the dark, the man thinks, washing them. ?What can you know of my machinery!? demands the Lord. Sure, the man says quietly and cuts into them, laying back the dozen struts, getting to the muck of something terrible. The Lord insists: ?You are the one who chooses to live this way. I build cities where things are human. I make Tuscany and you go to live with rocks and silence.? The man washes away the blood and arranges the fish on a big plate. Starts the onions in the hot olive oil and puts in peppers. ?You have lived all year without women.? He takes out everything and puts in the fish. ?No one knows where you are. People forget you. You are vain and stubborn.? The man slices tomatoes and lemons. Takes out the fish and scrambles eggs. I am not stubborn, he thinks, laying all of it on the table in the courtyard full of early sun, shadows of swallows flying on the food. Not stubborn, just greedy. Jack Gilbert, The Great Fires (Knopf, 1994) / -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Nov 12 11:28:23 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 11:28:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology In-Reply-To: <1321109764.83989.YahooMailNeo@web160108.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <4EBCFBCF0200006E000A07F6@gwdm1.valpo.edu><8CE6EDC35125293-1B44-29E40@webmail-d165.sysops.aol.com><53B55E2BDABB4F968341971713DACAE3@BobHP> <1321109764.83989.YahooMailNeo@web160108.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: From: Alexander Dickow Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 9:56 AM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology Hal, Didn't you know that Bob is the 17th duc de Gruman? The spelling's changed, but same family, noblesse d'epee, extremely old, distinguished themselves under the Merovingian kings. You'll have to ask him for the heraldric details, though. Amicalement, Alex I knew I never should have confided in you, Alex! (But at least you didn?t give away all my titles.) --ze emperoar whose name is all names -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Nov 12 11:43:07 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 08:43:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology Message-ID: <1321116187.31265.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Dove dismisses a pop anthology, goes on to express her resentment of the complacent, singleminded arrogance of myopic 'men of letters, whose curious brand of good will perpetuates racist selectivity ... she adds: ?I resent their transparent, self-serving attacks on concepts such as multiculturalism and feminism that have propelled our society towards a truer democracy ... & so on. ? ? www.siueblackstudies.com/2011/...rita-?doves-anthology.html - Cach ?Dove takes the anthologist to task for including such a small number of people of color. "For those readers who might have missed it (as both of Poetry's esteemed gentleman reviewers, Dana Gioia and August Kleinzahler, did)," writes Dove, "let me point out that in Keillor's entire book, all two hundred and ninety-four poems of it, I could find only three Black poets?all of them dead, no less, and the one woman actually a blues singer." She further notes that there is no "Hispanic or Asian-American or Native American presence to speak of" in Keillor's anthology. Toward the end of the letter, Dove writes that "I resent the complacent, singleminded arrogance of myopic 'men of letters,' whose curious brand of good will perpetuates racist selectivity. I resent their transparent, self-serving attacks on concepts such as multiculturalism and feminism that have propelled our society towards a truer democracy." There's a chance that some of the problems that Dove expressed with Keillor's anthology and the reviews by Gioia and Kleinzahler were part of her thinking as she approached the editorial work involved with The Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Poetry. --- On Sat, 11/12/11, bob grumman wrote: From: bob grumman Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, November 12, 2011, 7:55 AM ? ? From: carol dorf Sent: Friday, November 11, 2011 11:21 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's anthology ? I like this solution -- the losers will be the students in the introductory courses, who will miss some of lineage of the poetry they are reading, particularly in the case of Ginsberg. ? 1.? They?ll be missing a lot more than a little ?lineage? in any college introductory course, regardless of the texts used. ? 2.? If they aren?t interested enough to do the small amount of outside reading (in this case, just about any other standard anthology of 20th-century poetry, what difference does it make? ? --Bob -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sat Nov 12 12:52:55 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 12:52:55 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas Message-ID: <13978768.1321120375749.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> THE SONG OF WANDERING AENGUS by: W.B. Yeats I went out to the hazel wood, Because a fire was in my head, And cut and peeled a hazel wand, And hooked a berry to a thread; And when white moths were on the wing, And moth-like stars were flickering out, I dropped the berry in a stream And caught a little silver trout. When I had laid it on the floor I went to blow the fire a-flame, But something rustled on the floor, And some one called me by my name: It had become a glimmering girl With apple blossom in her hair Who called me by my name and ran And faded through the brightening air. Though I am old with wandering Through hollow lands and hilly lands, I will find out where she has gone, And kiss her lips and take her hands; And walk among long dappled grass, And pluck till time and times are done The silver apples of the moon, The golden apples of the sun. From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Nov 12 12:51:12 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham-RC) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 11:51:12 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] american persimmons In-Reply-To: <1321107685.79578.YahooMailNeo@web160110.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <29796689.1321061556165.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1321107685.79578.YahooMailNeo@web160110.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <502C288E-6F50-49F9-A8B2-ADF74F334C9B@ripon.edu> Alex, are you in Blacksburg? ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Nov 12, 2011, at 8:21 AM, Alexander Dickow wrote: > Speaking of food, anyone know where I can mail order rare cultivars of persimmon, especially the American persimmon? You'd think the farmer's market in Blacksburg, VA would sell diospyros virginiana after the first frosts, but no go. > Also looking for Tanenashi or any of the less usual goma varieties. But that's probably not till December. > Amicalement, > Alex > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Nov 12 13:01:40 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 10:01:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Electronic Literature @ MLA Message-ID: <1321120900.62894.YahooMailClassic@web161902.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ? ? Charles Bernstein shared a link. Electronic Literature @ MLA dtc-wsuv.org ?"Electronic Literature" is an exhibit featuring over 100 works by artists who create literary works involving various forms and combinations of digital media, such as video, animation, sound, virtual environments, and multimedia installations, for desktop computers, mobile devices, and live performa... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 12 13:01:52 2011 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 10:01:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] american persimmons In-Reply-To: <502C288E-6F50-49F9-A8B2-ADF74F334C9B@ripon.edu> References: <29796689.1321061556165.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1321107685.79578.YahooMailNeo@web160110.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <502C288E-6F50-49F9-A8B2-ADF74F334C9B@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <1321120912.27358.YahooMailNeo@web160108.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Yes I am indeed. Now teaching at Tech. Don't tell me you're here?? Amicalement, Alex ? www.alexdickow.net/blog/ ? les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ________________________________ From: David Graham-RC To: NewPoetry List Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 12:51 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] american persimmons Alex, are you in Blacksburg? ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Nov 12, 2011, at 8:21 AM, Alexander Dickow wrote: Speaking of food, anyone know where I can mail order rare cultivars of persimmon, especially the American persimmon? You'd think the farmer's market in Blacksburg, VA would sell diospyros virginiana after the first frosts, but no go. > >Also looking for Tanenashi or any of the less usual goma varieties. But that's probably not till December. >Amicalement, >Alex > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Nov 12 13:10:45 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham-RC) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 12:10:45 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] american persimmons In-Reply-To: <1321120912.27358.YahooMailNeo@web160108.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <29796689.1321061556165.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1321107685.79578.YahooMailNeo@web160110.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <502C288E-6F50-49F9-A8B2-ADF74F334C9B@ripon.edu> <1321120912.27358.YahooMailNeo@web160108.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <741262C3-2F8A-4E89-94A7-B37817D55B72@ripon.edu> I taught in the English dept. at Tech back in the 1980s. But still have friends there & in the environs. The former head of the English dept., Art Eastman, got the crazy idea that perhaps writers would be good people to teach all the freshman comp courses, so he hired a huge number of newly minted MFAs. We were all instructors, not on tenure track, and it's probably true we bitched about teaching comp courses less than your average PhD. Most of us have scattered, but for a while there we had quite the young-and-hungry writing community in that little town. Of course, this was long before Tech started its MFA program. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Nov 12, 2011, at 12:01 PM, Alexander Dickow wrote: > Yes I am indeed. Now teaching at Tech. Don't tell me you're here?? > Amicalement, > Alex > > www.alexdickow.net/blog/ > > les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin > merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet > > From: David Graham-RC > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 12:51 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] american persimmons > > Alex, are you in Blacksburg? > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > On Nov 12, 2011, at 8:21 AM, Alexander Dickow wrote: > >> Speaking of food, anyone know where I can mail order rare cultivars of persimmon, especially the American persimmon? You'd think the farmer's market in Blacksburg, VA would sell diospyros virginiana after the first frosts, but no go. >> Also looking for Tanenashi or any of the less usual goma varieties. But that's probably not till December. >> Amicalement, >> Alex >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Sat Nov 12 13:28:25 2011 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 10:28:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] american persimmons In-Reply-To: <741262C3-2F8A-4E89-94A7-B37817D55B72@ripon.edu> References: <29796689.1321061556165.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1321107685.79578.YahooMailNeo@web160110.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <502C288E-6F50-49F9-A8B2-ADF74F334C9B@ripon.edu> <1321120912.27358.YahooMailNeo@web160108.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <741262C3-2F8A-4E89-94A7-B37817D55B72@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <1321122505.29464.YahooMailNeo@web160117.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Hi David, It's a nice place to be writer-wise. I don't know most of their work, but I like a number of them; Erika Meitner is a lovely person, and they tell me Bob Hicok's a nice guy. If you come visit friends, you should look me up. Apparently assistant profs complain a little about teaching comp, too: I love teaching writing, but the advanced comp (French) I'm teaching to seniors here is incredibly work intensive, and a bit thankless. But I suppose I'm old enough now to focus on the gratifying aspects of it, and the kids work hard. Amicalement, Alex ? www.alexdickow.net/blog/ ? les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ________________________________ From: David Graham-RC To: NewPoetry List Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 1:10 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] american persimmons I taught in the English dept. at Tech back in the 1980s. ?But still have friends there & in the environs. ?The former head of the English dept., Art Eastman, got the crazy idea that perhaps writers would be good people to teach all the freshman comp courses, so he hired a huge number of newly minted MFAs. ?We were all instructors, not on tenure track, and it's probably true we bitched about teaching comp courses less than your average PhD. ? Most of us have scattered, but for a while there we had quite the young-and-hungry writing community in that little town. ?Of course, this was long before Tech started its MFA program. ? ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Nov 12, 2011, at 12:01 PM, Alexander Dickow wrote: Yes I am indeed. Now teaching at Tech. Don't tell me you're here?? >Amicalement, >Alex > >? >www.alexdickow.net/blog/ >? >les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin >merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet > > > >________________________________ >From: David Graham-RC >To: NewPoetry List >Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 12:51 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] american persimmons > > >Alex, are you in Blacksburg? > > >======================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu > > >Home Page: >http://web.me.com/drjazz > > >Poetry Library: >http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >========================================== > > > > >On Nov 12, 2011, at 8:21 AM, Alexander Dickow wrote: > >Speaking of food, anyone know where I can mail order rare cultivars of persimmon, especially the American persimmon? You'd think the farmer's market in Blacksburg, VA would sell diospyros virginiana after the first frosts, but no go. >> >>Also looking for Tanenashi or any of the less usual goma varieties. But that's probably not till December. >>Amicalement, >>Alex >> >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Nov 12 13:47:40 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 13:47:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas In-Reply-To: <13978768.1321120375749.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <13978768.1321120375749.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <8FAC0376EDAC4C3C857D535D7AF45A15@BobHP> -----Original Message----- From: junction at earthlink.net Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 12:52 PM To: NewPoetry Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas THE SONG OF WANDERING AENGUS by: W.B. Yeats I went out to the hazel wood, Because a fire was in my head, And cut and peeled a hazel wand, And hooked a berry to a thread; And when white moths were on the wing, And moth-like stars were flickering out, I dropped the berry in a stream And caught a little silver trout. When I had laid it on the floor I went to blow the fire a-flame, But something rustled on the floor, And some one called me by my name: It had become a glimmering girl With apple blossom in her hair Who called me by my name and ran And faded through the brightening air. Though I am old with wandering Through hollow lands and hilly lands, I will find out where she has gone, And kiss her lips and take her hands; And walk among long dappled grass, And pluck till time and times are done The silver apples of the moon, The golden apples of the sun. _______________________________________________ A great poem, I think--not least for the fact that it is metrically the same throughout. At least to a my generalizing sort of ear; anti-reductionists will find each line ever-so-gloriously-different for all the rest metrically--not that I am deaf to them, but I ignore them as aesthetically irrelevant. (Nice to see he starts almost as great a percentage of his lines with "And" as I do.) --Bob From elemenope_productions at hotmail.com Sat Nov 12 13:52:04 2011 From: elemenope_productions at hotmail.com (R Dillon) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 18:52:04 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, , , , , , <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , , , , , , , , , , , Message-ID: You make a hasty generalization. You make one inept debater all of the debaters.And cutely, too, but not as cutely as your rabid hero, The Kramer II. Or your witch, All-Red. Meanwhile, your allies in the streets go on raping and killing each other, butthat's not your problem, no, Perry caused them to do it, or Bush. This argument has been over for about 12 years, yet you keep on coming withyour cake of phony science tricked out with Manned-up fraud iced, again, with Gudding's colostomy bag poetry paid for by bankrupt ObamaCare playmoney Moore-Cuba rat-hospital medical care. Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 22:55:08 -0800 From: antrobin at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Uh. April Fools? Oh. On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 9:35 PM, R Dillon wrote: It is inappropriate to use New Poetry for political propaganda. I am not permitted to refute this tedious RadLlib drivel and therefore I won't. But, it isn't appropriate for Mr. Gudding to commandeer this website to stage his ideological anti-American anti-Constitutional views. If he has complaints why doesn't he take them to Heinz Kerry and Jay Rockefeller who work night and day to undermine the Constitution with George "Goldfinger" Soros so that they can ensure their onward march towards world government. I have received orders from the supervisors of this website to cease and desist my views. But, every time I do this, RadLib Progressive Bill Ayers types simply move into the void. This is exactly the same thing that happened twelve years ago with this fellow. OWS loons can shut down Republican campaign rallies in S.C., but when Tea Party Patriots move on them to stop raping and killing each other in Ducatti Park, they call us racists and fascists. And when the medical authorities observe that TB is spreading among Gudding's followers in the Atlanta Occupy Anarko HooverObamaVilles, they complain that germs are an endangered species. I don't know what's more absurd and distasteful, Mr. Gudding's propaganda or his poems about colostomy bags hanging from his bib overalls. Date: FrNov 2011 20:50:59 -0600 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Dear Sheila, Dieting emails! Well, in reply to the query about Pinker ("I would love to know, given the general horrors of the past century what Pinker could really mean by "violence has declined?"), I truly don't mean to be coy when I say it's such an amazingly well-researched book, bearing data from so many sources, and looking at the ways cultures transmit bad news and take for granted the good news, and carefully gainsaying the notions that the 20th century was the bloodiest on record etc and the common impulse to say "we've never had it so bad," that it takes careful study to gainsay it -- and he provides it with such a level sustained reasonable way from so many angles that I'm kind of blown away. So in great part what he's done is to aggregate the tons of data already out there and put it into an 800 page book that really is astoundingly eye-opening -- and I think I haven't read something this eye-opening in a long time. Thanks on the instrumentalizing thing. :) I'll have to see if I can summarize more clearly what Marcia Homiak was saying in that essay (I know I did a terrible job in my previous). Love Babar. I remember reading some of them to my daughter. Didn't know that about his TB. Is fascinating and saddening to learn that. Gabe What I have to agree on is the distinction you make--well done!--between the mystical experience and the "instrumentalizing of it." Also, I have to confess, I am very taken with the whole discussion of aesthetics and ethics--and goal-oriented versus a-pleasure-in-themselves activities. I do think those distinctions are important, and I like as a sort of improving motto (one particularly designed for poets and other such useless people) the notion of saying to myself at regular intervals: "I must not instrumentalize aesthetics." Perhaps I shall try saying that to myself every morning as I perform what is so charmingly termed in the much-beloved children's book Babar the Elephant, my "setting up exercises." Though this is completely irrelevant to all the discussions we have been having (but fits perhaps the notion of lightness when it comes to aesthetic/ethical matters); I have always been utterly moved (sentimentally I know given the Colonial subtext of Babar books and the later over-inflated Babar industry--as Mark has ably pointed out, it is a complex world) by the fact that Jean de Brunhoff illustrated, wrote down (his wife had made up the story for their children, I believe) those books to cheer up his family as he slowly wasted away from TB in one of those immortally dreary Swiss sanatoriums. And yet the books are so hopeful--so silly even! Which I have come to believe is the quality I most admire--a kind of cosmic silliness, in the face of, etc., which I daresay is one way--though not the only surely--aesthetics can actually prove useful. I'm happy you like some of my suggestions--I think you--or if not you certainly your students--will get a great kick of the Spahr book if you decide to use it. Best, :) (: Sheila Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:52:48 -0600 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Sheila, Sorry it's taken me a few days to get back to you. Got really busy at work again. I can see why you wd think I'm in to de-mystifying, but am not someone who believes/wants, at all, to deny the importance of nouminal/mystical experiences -- I only question the stuff done with such experiences: taking such experiences and then pretending to know things we don't/can't know (stories/cosmologies about the supposed transcendental, the poet as a special being who utters precious speech, etc), rather than using those experiences to better all relationships humans are involved in (human and human/animal). What most often happens, it seems, is these experiences -- which are in fact common -- are taken to be special and belonging to certain persons. Just lectured yesterday on chpt 2 of Bourdieu's _The Field of Cultural Production_, in which he examines, in part, this very issue wrt the fetish of "transgressive" artists. "I think I have less faith than you by far in the ability of groups of people to analyze anything altogether objectively and learn from it...." I get why you wd write that! But I am not a pollyanna, by any means -- but I know we've done a pretty good job overall at doing this, to the extent that we forget what it was like not so long ago. I really wd urge anyone curious about this to read Pinker's _The Better Angels of Our Nature: How Violence Has Declined_. So "anything" is, for me, an overstatement. And I am persuaded by Pinker's thesis. Humans are very good at organizing around what they care about. We just need to expand the circle of what we care about and carefully apply ourselves to that. Lot of societies do this better than the US: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ7LzE3u7Bw I have not read Kenzaboro Oe, no. But will add him to the already amazing list you've suggested so far (and which I *will* follow up on). The meeting you describe about XLH in the hospital was hard to read about. And I understand your wariness better now, as such a meeting is harrowing just to read about. "So who am I to say you are not right about the slaughter of the animals?" And: "Yet I also know that there are many right-to-lifers I tend to strenuously disagree with who feel the same about the hordes of the unborn." And in reading that I am reminded of the recent case in Mississippi attempting to extend "personhood" to fertilized eggs. So, insofar as both the Mississippi evangelicals and animals rights movements are both trying to persuade us of the value of widening the circle of empathy to include others, there are homologies, yes. The difference is of course that one side is talking about potential beings only, the colonization of the female body, the removal of bodily and mental sovereignty from any pregnant woman -- and the gripping of the future, and all future beings, as an area of law; and as such, such a project is eugenicist. The other is about precisely the reduction of eugenics, to which animals are already subject, and the abrogation of the eugenic and instrumentalized treatment of all beings, with a specific focus on according sovereignty to the present beings already here. So, one increases instrumentalization of beings, and one seeks to reduce it. On this I totally agree: "I don't disagree with you about the idea that phenomena of mind can be studied, nor that this should not be in some degree a purpose of art. I think the rub comes in around that notion of beauty/truth--too often ethical purposes mean we don't or don't dare or forget how to tell the whole story." Have just been discussing the debate between Richard Posner and Martha Nussbaum on this point in one class and discussing Marcia Homiak's article on Aristotelian ethics and art in "Virtue and the Skills of Ordinary Life" and it occurred to me at some point yesterday that probably one of the reasons Posner and others so insist on a separation between aesthetics and ethics is that they are concerned we not, per Aristotle, instrumentalize aesthetics. It should not be a means to an end, but an end in itself. A has this distinction between goal-oriented activities ("doing") versus activities that are a pleasure in themselves ("activity") -- with the latter being, overall, the key to both an ethical life and an aesthetic life: extending "activity" as much as possible is key to flourishing. Posner is NOT an Aristotelian. But of course A abrogates that concern -- in that he speaks of the aesthetic as the exercise of skills (both in the artist and in the recipient) that are the basis of virtue, so that "beauty" for him is "arete" (excellence in action), not as a thing/artifact to be fetishized (beauty). The Homiak is a really neat article. For Aristotle, then, beauty is truly a verb. :) Precisely because he refuses to instrumentalize the good: the good is its own pleasure. In the now and the here. Not in some Mississipian future nestled inside women's bodies. I think this is hard, in a Kantian world, to understand. When people think "ethics" they think duty and instrumentalization and lack of enjoyment. And OH!!!: thank you for the Spahr suggestion. I've read her _This Connection of Everyone with Lungs_ and two of her other shorter chapbooks -- and really enjoy her work, and will look into including the one you suggest! Thank you! Gabe (hope I matched your shorter email!). :) _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Sat Nov 12 14:02:10 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 19:02:10 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, , , , , , <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , , , , , , , , , Message-ID: Dear Gabriel: Dieting e-mails indeed, but, as you know, diets are always being broken! I will look at Stephen Pinker's book; I feel sure it is very intelligently and comprehensively argued, and I am sure, to be honest, that I will be impressed and quite blown away and believe it for a while, but I doubt it will transform my fundamental sense that the puzzle of people--of being human--is not one to be cracked by schemata, no matter how well thought out, how ethically coherent. I'll go back--oh, this e-mail is already slipping diet-wise--to my earlier e-mail, that kind of "bodily no" we wrote back and forth. Certainly--one can be somewhat convinced by the Hegelian notion of progress (phenomenology, etc)--and its descendents--a kind of sea change over time, but it still becomes a problem for the way in which one apprehends what it is be in the world--the ethical and, yes, aesthetic struggles of the self, which I tend to feel are much more hard to compass or comprehend--and yet still speak, and powerfully, to the dynamic of the group. I have only my own experience to go on--but, well, just to give a personal example, I would have always said I was a pretty nice easygoing person until somewhere in my middle years, I ran into a not uncommon situation of work-friendship-relationship conflict; I felt, in a word, betrayed, ill-done-by--and I grasped in a difficult passage, how quickly, how very easily I, myself, could travel from being nice, easygoing, generous, etc., a believer in other people, to suspicious, ungenerous (in thought at least), profoundly set on--well, all the usual trajectories of human conflict. Or how far afield those could go. Kindness, which I still consider better practice, necessary practice, proved a very difficult thing to enact in my own house. And there are, always, real resources being fought over--out here in the world; perhaps this for me is why it is so important aesthetics, as you so ably put it, not be instrumentalized.; wisdom--to be horribly old-fashioned about it--is different from data; lived experience from news; if you want an idea of how I might be thinking about it, read Walter Benjamin's "The Storyteller"--it is maybe my favorite essay of his, completely brilliant and wise about history and data--stories and how they are told or grasped within the framework of this work to be human. And--I do read things that are not so old school, just to be clear--here's a quote from a letter of Keats'; I do not mean to heroize him, but his letters are wonderful, and here he is compelling on that needful experience as opposed to idea or belief (which is kind of a comic way to look at the world in fact--for instance, when people say they "believe" in peace, but no one says they "believe" in violence or, at least, few 'fess up to it): Call the world if you Please "The vale of Soul-making." Then you will find out the use of the world . . . I say 'Soul-making' Soul as distinguished from an Intelligence -- There may be intelligences or sparks of the divinity in millions -- but they are not Souls till they acquire identities, till each one is personally itself. . . . Do you not see how necessary a World of Pains and troubles is to school an Intelligence and make it a Soul? Ah, but now I do feel a bit too 19th century. And yet, in terms of some of the disability perspectives we have been talking about, how do we know we can control experience so as to make a better world; how do we even know what kind of experience would best build a soul? (or what embodiment?) This is one reason, I suppose, I am so resistant to any program that seems to promise too much....which is not to dismiss at all what you've been saying all this time; only to say that perhaps it feels with Pinker et al, that no matter how well-researched and argued their treatises may be, they are hobbled by simply placing themselves within that form... Best--& I am aware this debate is making some people quite grumpy S. Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 20:50:59 -0600 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Dear Sheila, Dieting emails! Well, in reply to the query about Pinker ("I would love to know, given the general horrors of the past century what Pinker could really mean by "violence has declined?"), I truly don't mean to be coy when I say it's such an amazingly well-researched book, bearing data from so many sources, and looking at the ways cultures transmit bad news and take for granted the good news, and carefully gainsaying the notions that the 20th century was the bloodiest on record etc and the common impulse to say "we've never had it so bad," that it takes careful study to gainsay it -- and he provides it with such a level sustained reasonable way from so many angles that I'm kind of blown away. So in great part what he's done is to aggregate the tons of data already out there and put it into an 800 page book that really is astoundingly eye-opening -- and I think I haven't read something this eye-opening in a long time. Thanks on the instrumentalizing thing. :) I'll have to see if I can summarize more clearly what Marcia Homiak was saying in that essay (I know I did a terrible job in my previous). Love Babar. I remember reading some of them to my daughter. Didn't know that about his TB. Is fascinating and saddening to learn that. Gabe What I have to agree on is the distinction you make--well done!--between the mystical experience and the "instrumentalizing of it." Also, I have to confess, I am very taken with the whole discussion of aesthetics and ethics--and goal-oriented versus a-pleasure-in-themselves activities. I do think those distinctions are important, and I like as a sort of improving motto (one particularly designed for poets and other such useless people) the notion of saying to myself at regular intervals: "I must not instrumentalize aesthetics." Perhaps I shall try saying that to myself every morning as I perform what is so charmingly termed in the much-beloved children's book Babar the Elephant, my "setting up exercises." Though this is completely irrelevant to all the discussions we have been having (but fits perhaps the notion of lightness when it comes to aesthetic/ethical matters); I have always been utterly moved (sentimentally I know given the Colonial subtext of Babar books and the later over-inflated Babar industry--as Mark has ably pointed out, it is a complex world) by the fact that Jean de Brunhoff illustrated, wrote down (his wife had made up the story for their children, I believe) those books to cheer up his family as he slowly wasted away from TB in one of those immortally dreary Swiss sanatoriums. And yet the books are so hopeful--so silly even! Which I have come to believe is the quality I most admire--a kind of cosmic silliness, in the face of, etc., which I daresay is one way--though not the only surely--aesthetics can actually prove useful. I'm happy you like some of my suggestions--I think you--or if not you certainly your students--will get a great kick of the Spahr book if you decide to use it. Best, :) (: Sheila Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2011 10:52:48 -0600 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Sheila, Sorry it's taken me a few days to get back to you. Got really busy at work again. I can see why you wd think I'm in to de-mystifying, but am not someone who believes/wants, at all, to deny the importance of nouminal/mystical experiences -- I only question the stuff done with such experiences: taking such experiences and then pretending to know things we don't/can't know (stories/cosmologies about the supposed transcendental, the poet as a special being who utters precious speech, etc), rather than using those experiences to better all relationships humans are involved in (human and human/animal). What most often happens, it seems, is these experiences -- which are in fact common -- are taken to be special and belonging to certain persons. Just lectured yesterday on chpt 2 of Bourdieu's _The Field of Cultural Production_, in which he examines, in part, this very issue wrt the fetish of "transgressive" artists. "I think I have less faith than you by far in the ability of groups of people to analyze anything altogether objectively and learn from it...." I get why you wd write that! But I am not a pollyanna, by any means -- but I know we've done a pretty good job overall at doing this, to the extent that we forget what it was like not so long ago. I really wd urge anyone curious about this to read Pinker's _The Better Angels of Our Nature: How Violence Has Declined_. So "anything" is, for me, an overstatement. And I am persuaded by Pinker's thesis. Humans are very good at organizing around what they care about. We just need to expand the circle of what we care about and carefully apply ourselves to that. Lot of societies do this better than the US: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ7LzE3u7Bw I have not read Kenzaboro Oe, no. But will add him to the already amazing list you've suggested so far (and which I *will* follow up on). The meeting you describe about XLH in the hospital was hard to read about. And I understand your wariness better now, as such a meeting is harrowing just to read about. "So who am I to say you are not right about the slaughter of the animals?" And: "Yet I also know that there are many right-to-lifers I tend to strenuously disagree with who feel the same about the hordes of the unborn." And in reading that I am reminded of the recent case in Mississippi attempting to extend "personhood" to fertilized eggs. So, insofar as both the Mississippi evangelicals and animals rights movements are both trying to persuade us of the value of widening the circle of empathy to include others, there are homologies, yes. The difference is of course that one side is talking about potential beings only, the colonization of the female body, the removal of bodily and mental sovereignty from any pregnant woman -- and the gripping of the future, and all future beings, as an area of law; and as such, such a project is eugenicist. The other is about precisely the reduction of eugenics, to which animals are already subject, and the abrogation of the eugenic and instrumentalized treatment of all beings, with a specific focus on according sovereignty to the present beings already here. So, one increases instrumentalization of beings, and one seeks to reduce it. On this I totally agree: "I don't disagree with you about the idea that phenomena of mind can be studied, nor that this should not be in some degree a purpose of art. I think the rub comes in around that notion of beauty/truth--too often ethical purposes mean we don't or don't dare or forget how to tell the whole story." Have just been discussing the debate between Richard Posner and Martha Nussbaum on this point in one class and discussing Marcia Homiak's article on Aristotelian ethics and art in "Virtue and the Skills of Ordinary Life" and it occurred to me at some point yesterday that probably one of the reasons Posner and others so insist on a separation between aesthetics and ethics is that they are concerned we not, per Aristotle, instrumentalize aesthetics. It should not be a means to an end, but an end in itself. A has this distinction between goal-oriented activities ("doing") versus activities that are a pleasure in themselves ("activity") -- with the latter being, overall, the key to both an ethical life and an aesthetic life: extending "activity" as much as possible is key to flourishing. Posner is NOT an Aristotelian. But of course A abrogates that concern -- in that he speaks of the aesthetic as the exercise of skills (both in the artist and in the recipient) that are the basis of virtue, so that "beauty" for him is "arete" (excellence in action), not as a thing/artifact to be fetishized (beauty). The Homiak is a really neat article. For Aristotle, then, beauty is truly a verb. :) Precisely because he refuses to instrumentalize the good: the good is its own pleasure. In the now and the here. Not in some Mississipian future nestled inside women's bodies. I think this is hard, in a Kantian world, to understand. When people think "ethics" they think duty and instrumentalization and lack of enjoyment. And OH!!!: thank you for the Spahr suggestion. I've read her _This Connection of Everyone with Lungs_ and two of her other shorter chapbooks -- and really enjoy her work, and will look into including the one you suggest! Thank you! Gabe (hope I matched your shorter email!). :) _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From richard.wilsnack at med.und.edu Sat Nov 12 14:38:44 2011 From: richard.wilsnack at med.und.edu (Wilsnack, Richard) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 11:38:44 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Chekhov on Sakhalin Message-ID: A brief favor requested: Could anyone send me *off-list* a copy of Seamus Heaney's "Chekhov on Sakhalin" ? I would like to read it in the process of writing a brief comment elsewhere concerning the literary significance of Sakhalin. Judging from what is online, that significance seems to derive mainly from Chekhov's account of his trip to Sakhalin, and the reactions of others to what Chekhov wrote about his trip. Thanks for your assistance. Richard W. Wilsnack richard.wilsnack at med.und.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 15:02:45 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 14:02:45 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Chekhov on Sakhalin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If anyone has it, why not send it on-list so's we all can read it? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175 http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 1:38 PM, Wilsnack, Richard < richard.wilsnack at med.und.edu> wrote: > A brief favor requested: Could anyone send me *off-list* a copy of Seamus > Heaney's "Chekhov on Sakhalin" ? I would like to read it in the process of > writing a brief comment elsewhere concerning the literary significance of > Sakhalin. Judging from what is online, that significance seems to derive > mainly from Chekhov's account of his trip to Sakhalin, and the reactions of > others to what Chekhov wrote about his trip.**** > > ** ** > > Thanks for your assistance.**** > > ** ** > > Richard W. Wilsnack**** > > richard.wilsnack at med.und.edu **** > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 15:08:51 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 14:08:51 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Dear Sheila, Well, I'm not sure if the debate is making some people grumpy, or if they might have been that way to begin with? :) When you write, "And yet, in terms of some of the disability perspectives we have been talking about, how do we know we can control experience so as to make a better world...," I would reply: I'm not sure we *can* know, which is why skeptical, careful assessment of both the real and the good is always on the front burner. We can make guesses built on careful and skeptical assessment. Which is a darn sight better than what we had before: church/temple/mosque-based certitudes about *everything* based on zero evidence and a lot of fear, anger, disgust, and chauvinism -- and backed up by violence. What we have instead is a conversation that upholds what we can see and test -- and which, btw, includes the nouminal as something experiencable in here and now. "...how do we even know what kind of experience would best build a soul? (or what embodiment?)" Well, here I would reject Keats' use of "soul" as some necessary fulcrum on which wisdom and worlds hinge. Here I'm more with Daniel Dennett or Paul and Patricia Churchland in being something like an "eliminative realist": I think some of these old notions like "soul" (and even "self") are illusions/delusions that will continue to wane from common parlance. Observation just does not bear them out. They are not necessary as a basis for ethics (buddhadhamma as a psychology and practice bears this out from centuries back: it's possible, and probably preferable, to be an ethical being without such concepts). As a matter of fact, those notions were probably hinderances to ethics, in some ways. "Soul" as a concept directly chains us to celestial realms we all too easily construe as utopias to which we should aspire and whose future rewards are seen to be worth really awful costs in the here and now (teleologic suspension of the ethical). You write, "This is one reason, I suppose, I am so resistant to any program that seems to promise too much...." And I wonder: Didn't the old system of souls and celestial worlds do precisely that? I think we forget the violence of the old way of doing, thinking, and politicking, making it harder to recognize the actual things we've achieved in peace, knowledge, and political systems in certain parts of the world. Pinker's book is not a promise about some future, but a history (and it's certainly not beholden to Hegelian - or Spenglerian or stuff like - historiographic schemas) that looks at what the record tells us about our changing attitudes toward violence. It's a good record but clearly we've got a long way to go. Two areas where careful, skeptical observation is directly impacting criminal justice is in meditation and neurocriminlogy. Recidivism and violent-incident analyses have shown that implementing 10-day vipassana courses in prisons reduces drug-related recidivism by 25% -- not temporarily, either: in the long term. And that such vipassana courses radically reduce in-prison violence between inmates. See http://www.dhammabrothers.com/ for one such program in a maximum security facility in Alabama (I almost volunteered in one of the courses down there). In neuroethics and the law, there are now conferences between judges, prosecutors, defense lawyers and neuroscientists to determine better more condign punishments and more effective rehabilitative programs. Couple areas where skeptical careful non-soul-based ethics are having real-world impact on an important and overlooked area of life in US culture. And I'm happy about these two areas in particular because I have for the last 12 years volunteered in three different prisons -- and inmates are deeply in need of help and love and a source of strength and love that does not come from delusional structures promising celestial afterlives. Warmly, G On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 1:02 PM, sheila black wrote: > Dear Gabriel: > > Dieting e-mails indeed, but, as you know, diets are always being broken! > I will look at Stephen Pinker's book; I feel sure it is very intelligently > and comprehensively argued, and I am sure, to be honest, that I will be > impressed and quite blown away and believe it for a while, but I doubt it > will transform my fundamental sense that the puzzle of people--of being > human--is not one to be cracked by schemata, no matter how well thought > out, how ethically *coherent. * I'll go back--oh, this e-mail is already > slipping diet-wise--to my earlier e-mail, that kind of "bodily no" we wrote > back and forth. Certainly--one can be somewhat convinced by the Hegelian > notion of progress (phenomenology, etc)--and its descendents--a kind of sea > change over time, but it still becomes a problem for the way in which one > apprehends what it is be in the world--the ethical and, yes, aesthetic > struggles of the self, which I tend to feel are much more hard to compass > or comprehend--and yet still speak, and powerfully, to the dynamic of the > group. I have only my own experience to go on--but, well, just to give a > personal example, I would have always said I was a pretty nice easygoing > person until somewhere in my middle years, I ran into a not uncommon > situation of work-friendship-relationship conflict; I felt, in a word, > betrayed, ill-done-by--and I grasped in a difficult passage, how quickly, > how very easily I, myself, could travel from being nice, easygoing, > generous, etc., a believer in other people, to suspicious, ungenerous (in > thought at least), profoundly set on--well, all the usual trajectories of > human conflict. Or how far afield those could go. Kindness, which I still > consider better practice, necessary practice, proved a very difficult > thing to enact in my own house. And there are, always, real resources > being fought over--out here in the world; perhaps this for me is why it is > so important aesthetics, as you so ably put it, *not* be > instrumentalized.; wisdom--to be horribly old-fashioned about it--is > different from data; lived experience from news; if you want an idea of how > I might be thinking about it, read Walter Benjamin's "The Storyteller"--it > is maybe my favorite essay of his, completely brilliant and wise about > history and data--stories and how they are told or grasped within the > framework of this work to be human. And--I do read things that are not so > old school, just to be clear--here's a quote from a letter of Keats'; I do > not mean to heroize him, but his letters are wonderful, and here he is > compelling on that needful experience as opposed to idea or belief (which > is kind of a comic way to look at the world in fact--for instance, when > people say they "believe" in peace, but no one says they "believe" in > violence or, at least, few 'fess up to it): > > Call the world if you Please "The vale of Soul-making." Then you will find > out the use of the world . . . I say '*Soul-making*' Soul as > distinguished from an Intelligence -- There may be intelligences or sparks > of the divinity in millions -- but they are not Souls till they acquire > identities, till each one is personally itself. . . . Do you not see how > necessary a World of Pains and troubles is to school an Intelligence and > make it a Soul? > > Ah, but now I do feel a bit too 19th century. And yet, in terms of some of > the disability perspectives we have been talking about, how do we know we > can control experience so as to make a better world; how do we even know > what kind of experience would best build a soul? (or what embodiment?) > This is one reason, I suppose, I am so resistant to any program that seems > to promise too much....which is not to dismiss at all what you've been > saying all this time; only to say that perhaps it feels with Pinker et al, > that no matter how well-researched and argued their treatises may be, they > are hobbled by simply placing themselves within that form... > > Best--& I am aware this debate is making some people quite grumpy > > S. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Nov 12 15:18:14 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham-RC) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 14:18:14 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Chekhov on Sakhalin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't have a sendable copy, and my scanner is currently kaput. But Google Books to the rescue, here: http://books.google.com/books?id=1Lsr-CXlWT8C&pg=PA130&lpg=PA130&dq=%22lake+baikhal+from+the+deckrail%22&source=bl&ots=CtEwDd5fR3&sig=bnSLGgErMhUOlCEo7YcFwD_2lSw&hl=en&ei=z9K-TraXBIWK2QXbzaW8BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CFEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22lake%20baikhal%20from%20the%20deckrail%22&f=false ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Nov 12, 2011, at 1:38 PM, Wilsnack, Richard wrote: > A brief favor requested: Could anyone send me *off-list* a copy of Seamus Heaney's "Chekhov on Sakhalin" ? I would like to read it in the process of writing a brief comment elsewhere concerning the literary significance of Sakhalin. Judging from what is online, that significance seems to derive mainly from Chekhov's account of his trip to Sakhalin, and the reactions of others to what Chekhov wrote about his trip. > > Thanks for your assistance. > > Richard W. Wilsnack > richard.wilsnack at med.und.edu > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From patriciafanderson at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 15:23:42 2011 From: patriciafanderson at gmail.com (Patricia F Anderson) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 15:23:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas In-Reply-To: <32438977.1321106047624.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <32438977.1321106047624.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: The new faculty member we stole away from the President, who had stolen him away from the Queen. :) He is incredibly passionate, honest, good hearted, brilliant & humble. But I suspect you're probably right that he doesn't cook. He doesn't seem to use food analogies in his presentations. However, this wasn't a creative writing position, but a science position, so that's fine. ;) One of my friends had oral cancer, and the radiotherapy destroyed her tastebuds. She can now no longer taste anything, just goes by textures. Her children say it has made her a better cook, since she finally follows the recipe! For her, food poems help polish the memories of what she no longer has. - Patricia On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 8:54 AM, wrote: > I lived in France for a while. Unless one is really intimate with someone you don't talk about work, or money, or politics at the table. You talk about the food. Even in critical terms--the difference between this St Estephe 2009 and the last, this crottin de Chavignol and the last. It's like chamber music for the taste buds. > > If I'd had some chives in the house I would have softened them with the chops. And rosemary would have been nice. > > I'm guessing your new faculty member doesn't cook. You never should have hired him. > > Best, > > Mark > > -----Original Message----- >>From: Patricia F Anderson >>Sent: Nov 12, 2011 8:11 AM >>To: NewPoetry List >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Peas >> >>Taste *IS* a poem! I use cooking as a metaphor for many topics in my >>teaching. I figure everyone eats. Oddly, not everyone can taste, >>though. >> >>We took a new faculty member to lunch last year. He and I ended up >>ordering the same meal. It was wonderful. I said something like, "Oh, >>my, that whisper of cinnamon & maple with the onion on the seared >>brussel sprouts really mellows the flavor." He looked at me oddly and >>replied, "How can you taste that? I can tell it tastes good, but >>that's all." >> >>I think it is similar to music, where the untrained ear hears the >>melody and can tell that the harmony and rhythm support it nicely, >>while the trained ear can isolate the oboe line and the trumpet line >>and sing along with a supporting part or even write them down. >> >>So in poetry, we poets hear not just the words, images, surface >>emotions but also how the impact is generated, the rhythms, the >>rhymes, the slant rhymes, the subtle puns, the alliteration, the >>layering of meaning and image, the themes, the uncoupled open-ended >>tensions, the line that weaves through the poem and is never overtly >>stated. >> >> - Patricia >> >>On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 8:22 PM, ? wrote: >>> I had some boneless pork chiops in the house. Sauteed garlic and serrano peppers (thin sliced) in oil and butter), added hot paprika (I like my food to bite back), browned chops, added chopped cilantro, maple syrup and white vinegar, covered and cooked. Spooned liquid over the potato pancakes. >>> >>> Is taste a poem? >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>>>From: junction at earthlink.net >>>>Sent: Nov 11, 2011 7:47 PM >>>>To: NewPoetry List >>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Peas >>>> >>>>I halved the recipe. You wind up with something of the consistency of poi. Tasty, but barely edible. So, I made patties, dredged in a little flower, and sauteed in olive oil. Great potato pancakes! Where's the apple sauce? >>>> >>>>-----Original Message----- >>>>>From: Patricia F Anderson >>>>>Sent: Nov 11, 2011 1:32 PM >>>>>To: NewPoetry List >>>>>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Peas >>>>> >>>>>Jerry, you'll probably have to write your own terza rima, however I >>>>>can supply a few other examples. >>>>> >>>>>Here is a blogpost from JJ on the topic. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> - Poetical Cookbook http://mirlyn.lib.umich.edu/Record/004613796 >>>>> >>>>>Poetical Cook-Book (book): >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Poetical Cookbook (app): >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Another blogpost, differently authored: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Two large potatoes, passed through kitchen sieve, >>>>>Unwonted softness to the salad give; >>>>>Of mordant mustard add a single spoon, >>>>>Distrust the condiment that bites so soon; >>>>>But deem it not, though man of herbs, a fault, >>>>>To add a double quantity of salt; >>>>>Three times the spoon with oil of Lucca crown, >>>>>And once with vinegar, procured from town; >>>>>True flavor needs it, and your poet begs >>>>>The pounded yellow of two well-boiled eggs; >>>>>Let onion atoms lurk within the bowl, >>>>>And, scarce suspected, animate the whole; >>>>>And lastly, on the flavored compound toss >>>>>A magic teaspoon of anchovy sauce. >>>>>Then, though green turtle fail, through ven'son's tough, >>>>>And ham and turkey are not boiled enough, >>>>>Serenely full, the epicure may say, >>>>>"Fate cannot harm me, I have dined to-day!" >>>>> - Reverend Sidney Smith of the late 18th century England >>>>> >>>>>A blog of recipes in verse: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>A rustic baked potato recipe poem: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>A couple of my own. >>>>> >>>>>Corn Chowder: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Creation of Meatloaf: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Other poem/cookbooks. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>Enjoy! >>>>> >>>>> - Patricia >>>>> >>>>>On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:52 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: >>>>>> How about a couple of examples, Patricia? (I'd love a recipe for foccacia in >>>>>> terza rima, or blank verse instructions for Spotted Dick.) >>>>>> >>>>>> Jerry >>>>>> >>>>>> On 11/11/2011 11:44 AM, Patricia F Anderson wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I was talking about food and recipe poems with JJ Jacobson, who is the >>>>>> culinary curator of the University of Michigan Clements Library. In >>>>>> that collection reside an astonishing number of verse cookbooks, which >>>>>> was a very popular way to help people remember the recipes and >>>>>> addressing issues of literacy during the 1800s. JJ is also a poet, and >>>>>> we've been collecting and sharing food / recipe / cooking poems, and >>>>>> there are already existing published collections as well. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Fri, Nov 11, 2011 at 12:06 PM, Jerry McGuire >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I spent part of this morning trying to find a couple of great recipe poems >>>>>> written by the irrepressible Bill Sylvester (but I don't have his books with >>>>>> me) some years ago. As for me, when I quit smoking (New Year's Day, 1970) I >>>>>> immediately started to put on weight. So I obsessed myself onto a diet. It's >>>>>> pretty funny (to me, the only one who cares) how loaded my poems of that >>>>>> time became with food imagery, most of it unconscious. And I once wrote a >>>>>> burrito poem for a friend who was commissioned (yes, there was money >>>>>> involved) to read her poems at the opening of a Mexican restaurant. Here's >>>>>> another I wrote for a pastry-chef friend of mine (and if you don't have a >>>>>> pastry-chef friend, you don't know what you're missing): >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 11/11/2011 10:46 AM, junction at earthlink.net wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Sorry Bill. >>>>>> >>>>>> I love eating, and I'm a good cook, but I don't think I've ever written a >>>>>> food poem. It would be an interesting thread, though I expect that it would >>>>>> offend non-carnivores. >>>>>> >>>>>> Best, >>>>>> >>>>>> Mark >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>-- >>>>>Patricia Anderson / SL: Perplexity Peccable >>>>>pfa at umich.edu OR patriciafanderson at gmail.com >>>>>Emerging Technologies Librarian, Health Sciences Libraries, University >>>>>of Michigan, 1135 East Catherine, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 >>>>>"Google can give you 1,000 answers to your question. A librarian will >>>>>give you the right one." Anonymous. >>>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>>_______________________________________________ >>>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> >> >>-- >>Patricia Anderson / SL: Perplexity Peccable >>pfa at umich.edu OR patriciafanderson at gmail.com >>Emerging Technologies Librarian, Health Sciences Libraries, University >>of Michigan, 1135 East Catherine, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 >>"Google can give you 1,000 answers to your question. A librarian will >>give you the right one." Anonymous. >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Patricia Anderson / SL: Perplexity Peccable pfa at umich.edu OR patriciafanderson at gmail.com Emerging Technologies Librarian, Health Sciences Libraries, University of Michigan, 1135 East Catherine, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 "Google can give you 1,000 answers to your question. A librarian will give you the right one." Anonymous. From patriciafanderson at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 15:31:22 2011 From: patriciafanderson at gmail.com (Patricia F Anderson) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 15:31:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas In-Reply-To: <8CE6F6982CB7E40-93C-25320@webmail-d030.sysops.aol.com> References: <12848075.1321058839203.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <8CE6F6982CB7E40-93C-25320@webmail-d030.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: The biggest problem I have with this list is that you all share such wonderful poems, and then I scramble off to buy the books! And I can't afford to keep buying books like this! So then I hesitate to read the list, knowing I'll be tempted. (I do put many of them on the wishlist, but paydays are dangerous for book indulgence.) I really appreciate this poem, especially because I disagree with the character so much. Thank you for sharing it! - Patricia On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 10:47 AM, wrote: > Going Wrong > > > The fish are dreadful. They are brought up > the mountain in the dawn most days, beautiful > and alien and cold from night under the sea, > the grand rooms fading from their flat eyes, > Soft machinery of the dark, the man thinks, > washing them. ?What can you know of my machinery!? > demands the Lord. Sure, the man says quietly > and cuts into them, laying back the dozen struts, > getting to the muck of something terrible. > The Lord insists: ?You are the one who chooses > to live this way. I build cities where things > are human. I make Tuscany and you go to live > with rocks and silence.? The man washes away > the blood and arranges the fish on a big plate. > Starts the onions in the hot olive oil and puts > in peppers. ?You have lived all year without women.? > He takes out everything and puts in the fish. > ?No one knows where you are. People forget you. > You are vain and stubborn.? The man slices > tomatoes and lemons. Takes out the fish > and scrambles eggs. I am not stubborn, he thinks, > laying all of it on the table in the courtyard > full of early sun, shadows of swallows flying > on the food. Not stubborn, just greedy. > > Jack Gilbert, The Great Fires (Knopf, 1994) > > / > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Patricia Anderson / SL: Perplexity Peccable pfa at umich.edu OR patriciafanderson at gmail.com Emerging Technologies Librarian, Health Sciences Libraries, University of Michigan, 1135 East Catherine, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 "Google can give you 1,000 answers to your question. A librarian will give you the right one." Anonymous. From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 15:43:08 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 14:43:08 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Sheila, Was just watching this twelve-minute TED talk, which I hadn't known existed, about the vipassana program at that maximum CF in Alabama, and was moved by it and thought about your mention of wisdom: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=150cqgYh8sQ And that is precisely what vipassana aims at: wisdom. But here's what I think is relevant to your email: In the Pali language the word for wisdom is pa??a (penetrating wisdom -- seeing into the truth of things), and wat's important about this, to me, in regards to your mentioning wisdom, is that the ancient Pali instructions about how to practice vipassana are essentially empiricist, positivist, scientific: there is no "faith" or "belief" but "continual observation" ("sampaja??a") and "insight" (sammasati) -- all very scientific, and yet they are still arriving at wisdom. One gets there through simple empirical observation of material reality, not faith in some other realm. And it's nice to see this wisdom and skeptical observation having a real impact on the lives of people in a very complex situation. In fact, many of the teachers of vipassana in this very tradition are themselves scientists. There was even a large conference in MA about the similarities between this ancient practice and modern science, in I think 2002. Just thought I'd share that as an example. Gabe On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 2:08 PM, gabriel gudding wrote: > Dear Sheila, > > Well, I'm not sure if the debate is making some people grumpy, or if they > might have been that way to begin with? :) > > When you write, "And yet, in terms of some of the disability perspectives > we have been talking about, how do we know we can control experience so as > to make a better world...," I would reply: I'm not sure we *can* know, > which is why skeptical, careful assessment of both the real and the good is > always on the front burner. We can make guesses built on careful and > skeptical assessment. Which is a darn sight better than what we had before: > church/temple/mosque-based certitudes about *everything* based on zero > evidence and a lot of fear, anger, disgust, and chauvinism -- and backed up > by violence. What we have instead is a conversation that upholds what we > can see and test -- and which, btw, includes the nouminal as something > experiencable in here and now. > > "...how do we even know what kind of experience would best build a soul? > (or what embodiment?)" > > Well, here I would reject Keats' use of "soul" as some necessary fulcrum > on which wisdom and worlds hinge. Here I'm more with Daniel Dennett or Paul > and Patricia Churchland in being something like an "eliminative realist": I > think some of these old notions like "soul" (and even "self") are > illusions/delusions that will continue to wane from common parlance. > Observation just does not bear them out. They are not necessary as a basis > for ethics (buddhadhamma as a psychology and practice bears this out from > centuries back: it's possible, and probably preferable, to be an ethical > being without such concepts). As a matter of fact, those notions were > probably hinderances to ethics, in some ways. "Soul" as a concept directly > chains us to celestial realms we all too easily construe as utopias to > which we should aspire and whose future rewards are seen to be worth really > awful costs in the here and now (teleologic suspension of the ethical). > > You write, "This is one reason, I suppose, I am so resistant to any > program that seems to promise too much...." > > And I wonder: Didn't the old system of souls and celestial worlds do > precisely that? > > I think we forget the violence of the old way of doing, thinking, and > politicking, making it harder to recognize the actual things we've achieved > in peace, knowledge, and political systems in certain parts of the world. > > Pinker's book is not a promise about some future, but a history (and it's > certainly not beholden to Hegelian - or Spenglerian or stuff like - > historiographic schemas) that looks at what the record tells us about our > changing attitudes toward violence. It's a good record but clearly we've > got a long way to go. > > Two areas where careful, skeptical observation is directly impacting > criminal justice is in meditation and neurocriminlogy. > > Recidivism and violent-incident analyses have shown that implementing > 10-day vipassana courses in prisons reduces drug-related recidivism by 25% > -- not temporarily, either: in the long term. And that such vipassana > courses radically reduce in-prison violence between inmates. See > http://www.dhammabrothers.com/ for one such program in a maximum security > facility in Alabama (I almost volunteered in one of the courses down there). > > In neuroethics and the law, there are now conferences between judges, > prosecutors, defense lawyers and neuroscientists to determine better more > condign punishments and more effective rehabilitative programs. > > Couple areas where skeptical careful non-soul-based ethics are having > real-world impact on an important and overlooked area of life in US > culture. And I'm happy about these two areas in particular because I have > for the last 12 years volunteered in three different prisons -- and inmates > are deeply in need of help and love and a source of strength and love that > does not come from delusional structures promising celestial afterlives. > > Warmly, > G > > > On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 1:02 PM, sheila black wrote: > >> Dear Gabriel: >> >> Dieting e-mails indeed, but, as you know, diets are always being broken! >> I will look at Stephen Pinker's book; I feel sure it is very intelligently >> and comprehensively argued, and I am sure, to be honest, that I will be >> impressed and quite blown away and believe it for a while, but I doubt it >> will transform my fundamental sense that the puzzle of people--of being >> human--is not one to be cracked by schemata, no matter how well thought >> out, how ethically *coherent. * I'll go back--oh, this e-mail is already >> slipping diet-wise--to my earlier e-mail, that kind of "bodily no" we wrote >> back and forth. Certainly--one can be somewhat convinced by the Hegelian >> notion of progress (phenomenology, etc)--and its descendents--a kind of sea >> change over time, but it still becomes a problem for the way in which one >> apprehends what it is be in the world--the ethical and, yes, aesthetic >> struggles of the self, which I tend to feel are much more hard to compass >> or comprehend--and yet still speak, and powerfully, to the dynamic of the >> group. I have only my own experience to go on--but, well, just to give a >> personal example, I would have always said I was a pretty nice easygoing >> person until somewhere in my middle years, I ran into a not uncommon >> situation of work-friendship-relationship conflict; I felt, in a word, >> betrayed, ill-done-by--and I grasped in a difficult passage, how quickly, >> how very easily I, myself, could travel from being nice, easygoing, >> generous, etc., a believer in other people, to suspicious, ungenerous (in >> thought at least), profoundly set on--well, all the usual trajectories of >> human conflict. Or how far afield those could go. Kindness, which I still >> consider better practice, necessary practice, proved a very difficult >> thing to enact in my own house. And there are, always, real resources >> being fought over--out here in the world; perhaps this for me is why it is >> so important aesthetics, as you so ably put it, *not* be >> instrumentalized.; wisdom--to be horribly old-fashioned about it--is >> different from data; lived experience from news; if you want an idea of how >> I might be thinking about it, read Walter Benjamin's "The Storyteller"--it >> is maybe my favorite essay of his, completely brilliant and wise about >> history and data--stories and how they are told or grasped within the >> framework of this work to be human. And--I do read things that are not so >> old school, just to be clear--here's a quote from a letter of Keats'; I do >> not mean to heroize him, but his letters are wonderful, and here he is >> compelling on that needful experience as opposed to idea or belief (which >> is kind of a comic way to look at the world in fact--for instance, when >> people say they "believe" in peace, but no one says they "believe" in >> violence or, at least, few 'fess up to it): >> >> Call the world if you Please "The vale of Soul-making." Then you will >> find out the use of the world . . . I say '*Soul-making*' Soul as >> distinguished from an Intelligence -- There may be intelligences or sparks >> of the divinity in millions -- but they are not Souls till they acquire >> identities, till each one is personally itself. . . . Do you not see how >> necessary a World of Pains and troubles is to school an Intelligence and >> make it a Soul? >> >> Ah, but now I do feel a bit too 19th century. And yet, in terms of some >> of the disability perspectives we have been talking about, how do we know >> we can control experience so as to make a better world; how do we even know >> what kind of experience would best build a soul? (or what embodiment?) >> This is one reason, I suppose, I am so resistant to any program that seems >> to promise too much....which is not to dismiss at all what you've been >> saying all this time; only to say that perhaps it feels with Pinker et al, >> that no matter how well-researched and argued their treatises may be, they >> are hobbled by simply placing themselves within that form... >> >> Best--& I am aware this debate is making some people quite grumpy >> >> S. >> >> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Nov 12 16:04:56 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham-RC) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 15:04:56 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Reading poetry online In-Reply-To: References: <12848075.1321058839203.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <8CE6F6982CB7E40-93C-25320@webmail-d030.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I prefer to read poetry in printed form when possible, but since my book buying budget isn't as large as I'd like, either, I do read a great deal online. And probably due to the economic marginality of poetry, it's quite amazing how much stuff is out there for free. Even whole books by one Halvard Johnson, for instance! What's not to like? Anyway, it occurs to me that I haven't plugged my online Poetry Library here lately, so let me do so: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html Various pages of links, including a lot of poetry zines, full-book sites, poets' home pages, etc. Help yourself. By next summer, alas, Apple in its wisdom is discontinuing its MobileMe service, so I'll be looking for another place to put my Poetry Library. I would be grateful for suggestions of what good places to host such a site might be. Not sure if I'll have to rebuild it all from scratch or whether I'll be able to import what I've already done. I am pretty much a web ignoramus. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Nov 12, 2011, at 2:31 PM, Patricia F Anderson wrote: > The biggest problem I have with this list is that you all share such > wonderful poems, and then I scramble off to buy the books! And I can't > afford to keep buying books like this! So then I hesitate to read the > list, knowing I'll be tempted. (I do put many of them on the wishlist, > but paydays are dangerous for book indulgence.) > > I really appreciate this poem, especially because I disagree with the > character so much. Thank you for sharing it! > > - Patricia From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Sat Nov 12 16:19:10 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 15:19:10 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas In-Reply-To: <8FAC0376EDAC4C3C857D535D7AF45A15@BobHP> References: <13978768.1321120375749.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <8FAC0376EDAC4C3C857D535D7AF45A15@BobHP> Message-ID: <4EBEE2CE.50808@louisiana.edu> I'm trying to imagine someone wanting to dispute the beauty of this poem. Maybe someone so tin-eared as to resent a regularity so precise that it seems not only skilled but insightful, even daring. That last stanza--it makes me pound my head in admiration. And the initial "And"s that Bob points out--which any workshop might out of habit spend an hour despising--they establish a hypnotic pulse of straightforwardness (like a child stringing together "and" clauses) that is mirrored or shadowed by another range of experience: hazel wood/hazel wand, berry/thread, white moths/moth-like stars, something/someone, and then the metamorphosis into the "glimmering girl" who was there but "faded"; yikes, as if the simplest of the everyday were haunted by mysteries always just beyond us, which only visit us magically: and and and and and leading to that impossible closing couplet, with its own repetition--those inscrutable apples--shifted to the very middle of things. And Yeats's suggestion that miracles of simplicity are lost to us, or lost to nostalgia, seems about right to me--the toughest poem to write (and also to find) is the piece of simple transparency that takes us far beyond ourselves. Some poems by Basho and Li Po make that happen, but as Milosz's anthology (Book of Luminous Things) shows, efforts to get it right most often either fall flat or seem much too effortful. What's amazing about "Song of Wandering Aengus" (to me) is that Yeats doesn't manage it through a radical paring down, but through an unforced austerity and simplicity of form. Jerry On 11/12/2011 12:47 PM, bob grumman wrote: > > > -----Original Message----- From: junction at earthlink.net > Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 12:52 PM > To: NewPoetry > Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas > > THE SONG OF WANDERING AENGUS > > by: W.B. Yeats > > I went out to the hazel wood, > Because a fire was in my head, > And cut and peeled a hazel wand, > And hooked a berry to a thread; > > And when white moths were on the wing, > And moth-like stars were flickering out, > I dropped the berry in a stream > And caught a little silver trout. > > When I had laid it on the floor > I went to blow the fire a-flame, > But something rustled on the floor, > And some one called me by my name: > It had become a glimmering girl > With apple blossom in her hair > Who called me by my name and ran > And faded through the brightening air. > > Though I am old with wandering > Through hollow lands and hilly lands, > I will find out where she has gone, > And kiss her lips and take her hands; > And walk among long dappled grass, > And pluck till time and times are done > The silver apples of the moon, > The golden apples of the sun. > > > _______________________________________________ > > A great poem, I think--not least for the fact that it is metrically > the same throughout. At least to a my generalizing sort of ear; > anti-reductionists will find each line ever-so-gloriously-different > for all the rest metrically--not that I am deaf to them, but I ignore > them as aesthetically irrelevant. (Nice to see he starts almost as > great a percentage of his lines with "And" as I do.) > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 16:52:02 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 22:52:02 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Street Art Utopia Message-ID: http://www.streetartutopia.com/ -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sat Nov 12 17:05:28 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 17:05:28 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas Message-ID: <17606864.1321135529289.JavaMail.root@wamui-hunyo.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 17:06:48 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 23:06:48 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ellen Moody Message-ID: A Bibliography for Women's Literature: http://www.jimandellen.org/renwomenpoets.html -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com Sat Nov 12 18:13:08 2011 From: robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 23:13:08 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Chekhov on Sakhalin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Alison Croggon has a poem with (almost ? ?in? rather than ?on?) the same title (in The Common Flesh): http://www.poetrylibrary.edu.au/poets/croggon-alison/chekhov-in-sakhalin-0612046 Robin Hamilton -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Wilsnack, Richard Sent: Saturday, November 12, 2011 7:38 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: [New-Poetry] Chekhov on Sakhalin A brief favor requested: Could anyone send me *off-list* a copy of Seamus Heaney's "Chekhov on Sakhalin" ? I would like to read it in the process of writing a brief comment elsewhere concerning the literary significance of Sakhalin. Judging from what is online, that significance seems to derive mainly from Chekhov's account of his trip to Sakhalin, and the reactions of others to what Chekhov wrote about his trip. Thanks for your assistance. Richard W. Wilsnack richard.wilsnack at med.und.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 18:31:12 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 00:31:12 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas In-Reply-To: <13978768.1321120375749.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <13978768.1321120375749.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Such an old and wonderful poem when time existed forever. On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 6:52 PM, wrote: > THE SONG OF WANDERING AENGUS > > by: W.B. Yeats > > I went out to the hazel wood, > Because a fire was in my head, > And cut and peeled a hazel wand, > And hooked a berry to a thread; > > And when white moths were on the wing, > And moth-like stars were flickering out, > I dropped the berry in a stream > And caught a little silver trout. > > When I had laid it on the floor > I went to blow the fire a-flame, > But something rustled on the floor, > And some one called me by my name: > It had become a glimmering girl > With apple blossom in her hair > Who called me by my name and ran > And faded through the brightening air. > > Though I am old with wandering > Through hollow lands and hilly lands, > I will find out where she has gone, > And kiss her lips and take her hands; > And walk among long dappled grass, > And pluck till time and times are done > The silver apples of the moon, > The golden apples of the sun. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 18:39:54 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 00:39:54 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas In-Reply-To: <8CE6F6982CB7E40-93C-25320@webmail-d030.sysops.aol.com> References: <12848075.1321058839203.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <8CE6F6982CB7E40-93C-25320@webmail-d030.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Another poem worth remembering. On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 4:47 PM, wrote: > *Going Wrong ***** > > > **** > The fish are dreadful. They are brought up**** > the mountain in the dawn most days, beautiful**** > and alien and cold from night under the sea,**** > the grand rooms fading from their flat eyes,**** > *Soft machinery of the dark*, the man thinks, **** > washing them. ?What can you know of my machinery!?**** > demands the Lord. *Sure*, the man says quietly**** > and cuts into them, laying back the dozen struts,**** > getting to the muck of something terrible.**** > The Lord insists: ?You are the one who chooses**** > to live this way. I build cities where things**** > are human. I make Tuscany and you go to live **** > with rocks and silence.? The man washes away**** > the blood and arranges the fish on a big plate.**** > Starts the onions in the hot olive oil and puts**** > in peppers. ?You have lived all year without women.?**** > He takes out everything and puts in the fish.**** > ?No one knows where you are. People forget you. **** > You are vain and stubborn.? The man slices**** > tomatoes and lemons. Takes out the fish**** > and scrambles eggs. *I am not stubborn*, he thinks, **** > laying all of it on the table in the courtyard**** > full of early sun, shadows of swallows flying**** > on the food. *Not stubborn, just greedy.* > * > * > * > * > *Jack Gilbert, The Great Fires (Knopf, 1994)* > > / > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 18:47:39 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 00:47:39 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] a day Message-ID: I spent the day on my students' work and then playing around with Photoshop, here are some things that came out: http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 18:41:37 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 00:41:37 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas In-Reply-To: References: <12848075.1321058839203.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <8CE6F6982CB7E40-93C-25320@webmail-d030.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Ah Patricia, that is what I have ended up doing, heaps to read, heaps to go through, but 'since I am greedy' I will some day dig into it thoroughly. On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 9:31 PM, Patricia F Anderson < patriciafanderson at gmail.com> wrote: > The biggest problem I have with this list is that you all share such > wonderful poems, and then I scramble off to buy the books! And I can't > afford to keep buying books like this! So then I hesitate to read the > list, knowing I'll be tempted. (I do put many of them on the wishlist, > but paydays are dangerous for book indulgence.) > > I really appreciate this poem, especially because I disagree with the > character so much. Thank you for sharing it! > > - Patricia > > On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 10:47 AM, wrote: > > Going Wrong > > > > > > The fish are dreadful. They are brought up > > the mountain in the dawn most days, beautiful > > and alien and cold from night under the sea, > > the grand rooms fading from their flat eyes, > > Soft machinery of the dark, the man thinks, > > washing them. ?What can you know of my machinery!? > > demands the Lord. Sure, the man says quietly > > and cuts into them, laying back the dozen struts, > > getting to the muck of something terrible. > > The Lord insists: ?You are the one who chooses > > to live this way. I build cities where things > > are human. I make Tuscany and you go to live > > with rocks and silence.? The man washes away > > the blood and arranges the fish on a big plate. > > Starts the onions in the hot olive oil and puts > > in peppers. ?You have lived all year without women.? > > He takes out everything and puts in the fish. > > ?No one knows where you are. People forget you. > > You are vain and stubborn.? The man slices > > tomatoes and lemons. Takes out the fish > > and scrambles eggs. I am not stubborn, he thinks, > > laying all of it on the table in the courtyard > > full of early sun, shadows of swallows flying > > on the food. Not stubborn, just greedy. > > > > Jack Gilbert, The Great Fires (Knopf, 1994) > > > > / > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > -- > Patricia Anderson / SL: Perplexity Peccable > pfa at umich.edu OR patriciafanderson at gmail.com > Emerging Technologies Librarian, Health Sciences Libraries, University > of Michigan, 1135 East Catherine, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 > "Google can give you 1,000 answers to your question. A librarian will > give you the right one." Anonymous. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Nov 12 21:48:39 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 18:48:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Street Art Utopia Message-ID: <1321152519.46125.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 11/12/11, Anny Ballardini wrote: From: Anny Ballardini Subject: [New-Poetry] Street Art Utopia To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" Date: Saturday, November 12, 2011, 4:52 PM http://www.streetartutopia.com/ -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Sat Nov 12 21:49:47 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 02:49:47 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, , , , , , <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , , , , , , , , , , , , Message-ID: Gabriel: This is a moving talk--the TED talk--I really liked it. I do like the idea we can do simple things to make life better, happier, easier to endure. And yet....I don't know that I could ever entirely exist within such a frame if I did not have the luxury and the cruelty of my imaginative self and/or access to the writing of other people who felt able to translate themselves fully without worrying about "goodness" or "happiness." Put another way, there is an element of being which--well, it can't exactly regret anything it has suffered or endured or seen or experienced because all of these constitute its particular knowing and being or that is how I would see it if I was speaking purely from the part of myself that tries to--that wishes to--write poetry. Ouch. I don't know if I've said that very well. I feel a bit like we are on this crazy merry-go-round. If we were neighbors I think we would sign the same petitions, and stick the same candidate signs in our yards. I might be the one who snuck off to eat the odd green chile cheeseburger, but I am in accord--how could I not be?--with the lovely idea of wisdom in those words I can't spell on my e-mail--penetrating wisdom/insight et al. But when it comes to poetry--to art-- I would seek to preserve a distance from the ethical; I do not believe I am primarily ethical in my art, nor even that I should be; I think I would stick with those phrases we threw about--amoral, revolutionary, vitalizing--and no, that does not have to involve a "soul" (which I don't think I--nor Mr. Keats--was really using in a strictly religious way--I am actually the most irreligious, even religiously ignorant person I know) or a "self"--there should always be new ways of telling stories or constructing art, but--and maybe you would agree?--poetry, writing, art in general are certainly not really in the ethical realm; awful people are often great artists and many nice people aren't; perhaps art should not be celebrated as it is, but it always is, and historically one can always see that a society is going downhill fast when it begins to mandate any sort of "goodness" or "rightness" in its artists. Isaac Babel under Stalin said it best perhaps in the speech he gave at the First Union of Soviet Writers (1934) when he noted that "in this era when one is free to do everything but write badly, I am becoming master of a new literary genre--the genre of silence." So beauty, the unknown, the primacy of imagination, those would be areas I would keep perhaps a little under-observed if I could. And so, just to put a cap on it,--and since this is a poetry listserv--here are a couple of poems--one quite famous, one not so, but both, I think, good. Extinct Birds Charles Harpur in his journals long ago (written in hope and love, and never printed) recorded the birds of his time's forest -- birds long vanished with the fallen forest -- described in copperplate on unread pages. The scarlet satin-bird, swung like a lamp in berries, he watched in love, and then in hope described it, There was a bird, blue, small, spangled like dew. All now are vanished with the fallen forest. And he, unloved, past hope, was buried, who helped with proud stained hands to fell the forest, and set those birds in love on unread pages; yet thought himself immortal, being a poet. And is he not immortal, where I found him, in love and hope along his careful pages? -- the poet vanished, in the vanished forest, among his brightly tincted extinct birds? Judith Wright (1915-2000) Often I Am Permitted to Return to a Meadow by Robert Duncan as if it were a scene made-up by the mind, that is not mine, but is a made place, that is mine, it is so near to the heart, an eternal pasture folded in all thought so that there is a hall therein that is a made place, created by light wherefrom the shadows that are forms fall. Wherefrom fall all architectures I am I say are likenesses of the First Beloved whose flowers are flames lit to the Lady. She it is Queen Under The Hill whose hosts are a disturbance of words within words that is a field folded. It is only a dream of the grass blowing east against the source of the sun in an hour before the sun's going down whose secret we see in a children's game of ring a round of roses told. Often I am permitted to return to a meadow as if it were a given property of the mind that certain bounds hold against chaos, that is a place of first permission, everlasting omen of what is. And now I have really undone my e-mail diet--but maybe for the last time! Warmly, Sheila Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 14:43:08 -0600 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Hi Sheila, Was just watching this twelve-minute TED talk, which I hadn't known existed, about the vipassana program at that maximum CF in Alabama, and was moved by it and thought about your mention of wisdom: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=150cqgYh8sQ And that is precisely what vipassana aims at: wisdom. But here's what I think is relevant to your email: In the Pali language the word for wisdom is pa??a (penetrating wisdom -- seeing into the truth of things), and wat's important about this, to me, in regards to your mentioning wisdom, is that the ancient Pali instructions about how to practice vipassana are essentially empiricist, positivist, scientific: there is no "faith" or "belief" but "continual observation" ("sampaja??a") and "insight" (sammasati) -- all very scientific, and yet they are still arriving at wisdom. One gets there through simple empirical observation of material reality, not faith in some other realm. And it's nice to see this wisdom and skeptical observation having a real impact on the lives of people in a very complex situation. In fact, many of the teachers of vipassana in this very tradition are themselves scientists. There was even a large conference in MA about the similarities between this ancient practice and modern science, in I think 2002. Just thought I'd share that as an example. Gabe On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 2:08 PM, gabriel gudding wrote: Dear Sheila, Well, I'm not sure if the debate is making some people grumpy, or if they might have been that way to begin with? :) When you write, "And yet, in terms of some of the disability perspectives we have been talking about, how do we know we can control experience so as to make a better world...," I would reply: I'm not sure we can know, which is why skeptical, careful assessment of both the real and the good is always on the front burner. We can make guesses built on careful and skeptical assessment. Which is a darn sight better than what we had before: church/temple/mosque-based certitudes about *everything* based on zero evidence and a lot of fear, anger, disgust, and chauvinism -- and backed up by violence. What we have instead is a conversation that upholds what we can see and test -- and which, btw, includes the nouminal as something experiencable in here and now. "...how do we even know what kind of experience would best build a soul? (or what embodiment?)" Well, here I would reject Keats' use of "soul" as some necessary fulcrum on which wisdom and worlds hinge. Here I'm more with Daniel Dennett or Paul and Patricia Churchland in being something like an "eliminative realist": I think some of these old notions like "soul" (and even "self") are illusions/delusions that will continue to wane from common parlance. Observation just does not bear them out. They are not necessary as a basis for ethics (buddhadhamma as a psychology and practice bears this out from centuries back: it's possible, and probably preferable, to be an ethical being without such concepts). As a matter of fact, those notions were probably hinderances to ethics, in some ways. "Soul" as a concept directly chains us to celestial realms we all too easily construe as utopias to which we should aspire and whose future rewards are seen to be worth really awful costs in the here and now (teleologic suspension of the ethical). You write, "This is one reason, I suppose, I am so resistant to any program that seems to promise too much...." And I wonder: Didn't the old system of souls and celestial worlds do precisely that? I think we forget the violence of the old way of doing, thinking, and politicking, making it harder to recognize the actual things we've achieved in peace, knowledge, and political systems in certain parts of the world. Pinker's book is not a promise about some future, but a history (and it's certainly not beholden to Hegelian - or Spenglerian or stuff like - historiographic schemas) that looks at what the record tells us about our changing attitudes toward violence. It's a good record but clearly we've got a long way to go. Two areas where careful, skeptical observation is directly impacting criminal justice is in meditation and neurocriminlogy. Recidivism and violent-incident analyses have shown that implementing 10-day vipassana courses in prisons reduces drug-related recidivism by 25% -- not temporarily, either: in the long term. And that such vipassana courses radically reduce in-prison violence between inmates. See http://www.dhammabrothers.com/ for one such program in a maximum security facility in Alabama (I almost volunteered in one of the courses down there). In neuroethics and the law, there are now conferences between judges, prosecutors, defense lawyers and neuroscientists to determine better more condign punishments and more effective rehabilitative programs. Couple areas where skeptical careful non-soul-based ethics are having real-world impact on an important and overlooked area of life in US culture. And I'm happy about these two areas in particular because I have for the last 12 years volunteered in three different prisons -- and inmates are deeply in need of help and love and a source of strength and love that does not come from delusional structures promising celestial afterlives. Warmly, G On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 1:02 PM, sheila black wrote: Dear Gabriel: Dieting e-mails indeed, but, as you know, diets are always being broken! I will look at Stephen Pinker's book; I feel sure it is very intelligently and comprehensively argued, and I am sure, to be honest, that I will be impressed and quite blown away and believe it for a while, but I doubt it will transform my fundamental sense that the puzzle of people--of being human--is not one to be cracked by schemata, no matter how well thought out, how ethically coherent. I'll go back--oh, this e-mail is already slipping diet-wise--to my earlier e-mail, that kind of "bodily no" we wrote back and forth. Certainly--one can be somewhat convinced by the Hegelian notion of progress (phenomenology, etc)--and its descendents--a kind of sea change over time, but it still becomes a problem for the way in which one apprehends what it is be in the world--the ethical and, yes, aesthetic struggles of the self, which I tend to feel are much more hard to compass or comprehend--and yet still speak, and powerfully, to the dynamic of the group. I have only my own experience to go on--but, well, just to give a personal example, I would have always said I was a pretty nice easygoing person until somewhere in my middle years, I ran into a not uncommon situation of work-friendship-relationship conflict; I felt, in a word, betrayed, ill-done-by--and I grasped in a difficult passage, how quickly, how very easily I, myself, could travel from being nice, easygoing, generous, etc., a believer in other people, to suspicious, ungenerous (in thought at least), profoundly set on--well, all the usual trajectories of human conflict. Or how far afield those could go. Kindness, which I still consider better practice, necessary practice, proved a very difficult thing to enact in my own house. And there are, always, real resources being fought over--out here in the world; perhaps this for me is why it is so important aesthetics, as you so ably put it, not be instrumentalized.; wisdom--to be horribly old-fashioned about it--is different from data; lived experience from news; if you want an idea of how I might be thinking about it, read Walter Benjamin's "The Storyteller"--it is maybe my favorite essay of his, completely brilliant and wise about history and data--stories and how they are told or grasped within the framework of this work to be human. And--I do read things that are not so old school, just to be clear--here's a quote from a letter of Keats'; I do not mean to heroize him, but his letters are wonderful, and here he is compelling on that needful experience as opposed to idea or belief (which is kind of a comic way to look at the world in fact--for instance, when people say they "believe" in peace, but no one says they "believe" in violence or, at least, few 'fess up to it): Call the world if you Please "The vale of Soul-making." Then you will find out the use of the world . . . I say 'Soul-making' Soul as distinguished from an Intelligence -- There may be intelligences or sparks of the divinity in millions -- but they are not Souls till they acquire identities, till each one is personally itself. . . . Do you not see how necessary a World of Pains and troubles is to school an Intelligence and make it a Soul? Ah, but now I do feel a bit too 19th century. And yet, in terms of some of the disability perspectives we have been talking about, how do we know we can control experience so as to make a better world; how do we even know what kind of experience would best build a soul? (or what embodiment?) This is one reason, I suppose, I am so resistant to any program that seems to promise too much....which is not to dismiss at all what you've been saying all this time; only to say that perhaps it feels with Pinker et al, that no matter how well-researched and argued their treatises may be, they are hobbled by simply placing themselves within that form... Best--& I am aware this debate is making some people quite grumpy S. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Nov 12 21:54:13 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 18:54:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Street Art Utopia In-Reply-To: <1321152519.46125.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1321152853.20911.YahooMailClassic@web161915.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> sorry. I accidently sent a blank that was meant for myself. Great link -- (.http://www.streetartutopia.com/)/ -- --- On Sat, 11/12/11, stephen russell wrote: From: stephen russell Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Street Art Utopia To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, November 12, 2011, 9:48 PM --- On Sat, 11/12/11, Anny Ballardini wrote: From: Anny Ballardini Subject: [New-Poetry] Street Art Utopia To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" Date: Saturday, November 12, 2011, 4:52 PM http://www.streetartutopia.com/ -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 00:20:20 2011 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 21:20:20 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas In-Reply-To: References: <12848075.1321058839203.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <8CE6F6982CB7E40-93C-25320@webmail-d030.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Here's a link to my peas poem -- but the whole thing is only in the book VAUXHALL: http://epc.buffalo.edu/mags/vert/Vert_issue_8/cdaly.html All best, Catherine On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Patricia F Anderson < patriciafanderson at gmail.com> wrote: > The biggest problem I have with this list is that you all share such > wonderful poems, and then I scramble off to buy the books! And I can't > afford to keep buying books like this! So then I hesitate to read the > list, knowing I'll be tempted. (I do put many of them on the wishlist, > but paydays are dangerous for book indulgence.) > > I really appreciate this poem, especially because I disagree with the > character so much. Thank you for sharing it! > > - Patricia > > On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 10:47 AM, wrote: > > Going Wrong > > > > > > The fish are dreadful. They are brought up > > the mountain in the dawn most days, beautiful > > and alien and cold from night under the sea, > > the grand rooms fading from their flat eyes, > > Soft machinery of the dark, the man thinks, > > washing them. ?What can you know of my machinery!? > > demands the Lord. Sure, the man says quietly > > and cuts into them, laying back the dozen struts, > > getting to the muck of something terrible. > > The Lord insists: ?You are the one who chooses > > to live this way. I build cities where things > > are human. I make Tuscany and you go to live > > with rocks and silence.? The man washes away > > the blood and arranges the fish on a big plate. > > Starts the onions in the hot olive oil and puts > > in peppers. ?You have lived all year without women.? > > He takes out everything and puts in the fish. > > ?No one knows where you are. People forget you. > > You are vain and stubborn.? The man slices > > tomatoes and lemons. Takes out the fish > > and scrambles eggs. I am not stubborn, he thinks, > > laying all of it on the table in the courtyard > > full of early sun, shadows of swallows flying > > on the food. Not stubborn, just greedy. > > > > Jack Gilbert, The Great Fires (Knopf, 1994) > > > > / > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > > -- > Patricia Anderson / SL: Perplexity Peccable > pfa at umich.edu OR patriciafanderson at gmail.com > Emerging Technologies Librarian, Health Sciences Libraries, University > of Michigan, 1135 East Catherine, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 > "Google can give you 1,000 answers to your question. A librarian will > give you the right one." Anonymous. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 02:42:09 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 08:42:09 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas In-Reply-To: References: <12848075.1321058839203.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <8CE6F6982CB7E40-93C-25320@webmail-d030.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Peas and broccoli, this is a funny one. On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 6:20 AM, Catherine Daly wrote: > Here's a link to my peas poem -- but the whole thing is only in the book > VAUXHALL: > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/mags/vert/Vert_issue_8/cdaly.html > > All best, > Catherine > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From htthinc at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 07:28:43 2011 From: htthinc at gmail.com (Paul Howell) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 07:28:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Chekhov on Sakhalin In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, David. It's a beautiful Sunday Morning. On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 3:18 PM, David Graham-RC wrote: > I don't have a sendable copy, and my scanner is currently kaput. But > Google Books to the rescue, here: > > > http://books.google.com/books?id=1Lsr-CXlWT8C&pg=PA130&lpg=PA130&dq=%22lake+baikhal+from+the+deckrail%22&source=bl&ots=CtEwDd5fR3&sig=bnSLGgErMhUOlCEo7YcFwD_2lSw&hl=en&ei=z9K-TraXBIWK2QXbzaW8BQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CFEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22lake%20baikhal%20from%20the%20deckrail%22&f=false > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Nov 12, 2011, at 1:38 PM, Wilsnack, Richard wrote: > > A brief favor requested: Could anyone send me *off-list* a copy of Seamus > Heaney's "Chekhov on Sakhalin" ? I would like to read it in the process of > writing a brief comment elsewhere concerning the literary significance of > Sakhalin. Judging from what is online, that significance seems to derive > mainly from Chekhov's account of his trip to Sakhalin, and the reactions of > others to what Chekhov wrote about his trip.**** > ** ** > Thanks for your assistance.**** > ** ** > Richard W. Wilsnack**** > richard.wilsnack at med.und.edu**** > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Sun Nov 13 10:01:11 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 15:01:11 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas In-Reply-To: References: <12848075.1321058839203.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, <8CE6F6982CB7E40-93C-25320@webmail-d030.sysops.aol.com>, , Message-ID: Oh lovely. I will never eat peas the same way again Sheila Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2011 21:20:20 -0800 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Peas Here's a link to my peas poem -- but the whole thing is only in the book VAUXHALL: http://epc.buffalo.edu/mags/vert/Vert_issue_8/cdaly.html All best,Catherine On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Patricia F Anderson wrote: The biggest problem I have with this list is that you all share such wonderful poems, and then I scramble off to buy the books! And I can't afford to keep buying books like this! So then I hesitate to read the list, knowing I'll be tempted. (I do put many of them on the wishlist, but paydays are dangerous for book indulgence.) I really appreciate this poem, especially because I disagree with the character so much. Thank you for sharing it! - Patricia On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 10:47 AM, wrote: > Going Wrong > > > The fish are dreadful. They are brought up > the mountain in the dawn most days, beautiful > and alien and cold from night under the sea, > the grand rooms fading from their flat eyes, > Soft machinery of the dark, the man thinks, > washing them. ?What can you know of my machinery!? > demands the Lord. Sure, the man says quietly > and cuts into them, laying back the dozen struts, > getting to the muck of something terrible. > The Lord insists: ?You are the one who chooses > to live this way. I build cities where things > are human. I make Tuscany and you go to live > with rocks and silence.? The man washes away > the blood and arranges the fish on a big plate. > Starts the onions in the hot olive oil and puts > in peppers. ?You have lived all year without women.? > He takes out everything and puts in the fish. > ?No one knows where you are. People forget you. > You are vain and stubborn.? The man slices > tomatoes and lemons. Takes out the fish > and scrambles eggs. I am not stubborn, he thinks, > laying all of it on the table in the courtyard > full of early sun, shadows of swallows flying > on the food. Not stubborn, just greedy. > > Jack Gilbert, The Great Fires (Knopf, 1994) > > / > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Patricia Anderson / SL: Perplexity Peccable pfa at umich.edu OR patriciafanderson at gmail.com Emerging Technologies Librarian, Health Sciences Libraries, University of Michigan, 1135 East Catherine, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 "Google can give you 1,000 answers to your question. A librarian will give you the right one." Anonymous. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 10:26:57 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 16:26:57 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Nietzsche Message-ID: ?How much truth can a spirit *bear*, how much truth can a spirit *dare*,? Nietzsche tells us, is the ultimate ?measure of value.? *American Nietzsche* *A History of an Icon and His Ideas.* By Jennifer Ratner-Rosenhagen. http://www.thenation.com/article/164321/american-idol-nietzsche-america?page=full -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 11:19:54 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 10:19:54 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Nietzsche In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Am often still amazed to know Emerson was his favorite philosopher. Never really read much Emerson until two years ago -- and I could immediately see why E wd've been N's favorite. They're both all over the map. iconoclastic, sons of clergy, fond of blatant contradiction and aphorism. That's a neat article! On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > ?How much truth can a spirit *bear*, how much truth can a spirit *dare*,? > Nietzsche tells us, is the ultimate ?measure of value.? > > *American Nietzsche* > *A History of an Icon and His Ideas.* > By Jennifer Ratner-Rosenhagen. > > > http://www.thenation.com/article/164321/american-idol-nietzsche-america?page=full > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 11:24:53 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 17:24:53 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Nietzsche In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am very much in the spirit of Nietzsche... On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 5:19 PM, gabriel gudding wrote: > Am often still amazed to know Emerson was his favorite philosopher. Never > really read much Emerson until two years ago -- and I could immediately see > why E wd've been N's favorite. They're both all over the map. iconoclastic, > sons of clergy, fond of blatant contradiction and aphorism. That's a neat > article! > > On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Anny Ballardini < > anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote: > >> ?How much truth can a spirit *bear*, how much truth can a spirit *dare*,? >> Nietzsche tells us, is the ultimate ?measure of value.? >> >> *American Nietzsche* >> *A History of an Icon and His Ideas.* >> By Jennifer Ratner-Rosenhagen. >> >> >> http://www.thenation.com/article/164321/american-idol-nietzsche-america?page=full >> >> >> >> >> -- >> Anny Ballardini >> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >> star! >> Friedrich Nietzsche >> >> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >> Giovenale >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Sun Nov 13 12:10:27 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 17:10:27 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Nietzsche In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: Me, too. Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 17:24:53 +0100 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] American Nietzsche I am very much in the spirit of Nietzsche... On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 5:19 PM, gabriel gudding wrote: Am often still amazed to know Emerson was his favorite philosopher. Never really read much Emerson until two years ago -- and I could immediately see why E wd've been N's favorite. They're both all over the map. iconoclastic, sons of clergy, fond of blatant contradiction and aphorism. That's a neat article! On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: ?How much truth can a spirit bear, how much truth can a spirit dare,? Nietzsche tells us, is the ultimate ?measure of value.? American Nietzsche A History of an Icon and His Ideas. By Jennifer Ratner-Rosenhagen. http://www.thenation.com/article/164321/american-idol-nietzsche-america?page=full -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Sun Nov 13 12:43:11 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 11:43:11 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Nietzsche In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <4EC001AF.2070003@louisiana.edu> Me three. But one more and we have a herd. Jerry On 11/13/2011 11:10 AM, sheila black wrote: > Me, too. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 17:24:53 +0100 > From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] American Nietzsche > > I am very much in the spirit of Nietzsche... > > On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 5:19 PM, gabriel gudding > > wrote: > > Am often still amazed to know Emerson was his favorite > philosopher. Never really read much Emerson until two years ago -- > and I could immediately see why E wd've been N's favorite. They're > both all over the map. iconoclastic, sons of clergy, fond of > blatant contradiction and aphorism. That's a neat article! > > On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Anny Ballardini > > wrote: > > "How much truth can a spirit /bear/, how much truth can a > spirit /dare/," Nietzsche tells us, is the ultimate "measure > of value." > > *American Nietzsche* > /A History of an Icon and His Ideas./ > By Jennifer Ratner-Rosenhagen. > > http://www.thenation.com/article/164321/american-idol-nietzsche-america?page=full > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to > a dancing star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a > dancing star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing > list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Sun Nov 13 13:00:16 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 18:00:16 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Nietzsche In-Reply-To: <4EC001AF.2070003@louisiana.edu> References: , , , , , , <4EC001AF.2070003@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: I wouldn't mind a herd! Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 11:43:11 -0600 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu To: new-poetry at charlemagne.cddc.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] American Nietzsche Me three. But one more and we have a herd. Jerry On 11/13/2011 11:10 AM, sheila black wrote: Me, too. Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 17:24:53 +0100 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] American Nietzsche I am very much in the spirit of Nietzsche... On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 5:19 PM, gabriel gudding wrote: Am often still amazed to know Emerson was his favorite philosopher. Never really read much Emerson until two years ago -- and I could immediately see why E wd've been N's favorite. They're both all over the map. iconoclastic, sons of clergy, fond of blatant contradiction and aphorism. That's a neat article! On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: ?How much truth can a spirit bear, how much truth can a spirit dare,? Nietzsche tells us, is the ultimate ?measure of value.? American Nietzsche A History of an Icon and His Ideas. By Jennifer Ratner-Rosenhagen. http://www.thenation.com/article/164321/american-idol-nietzsche-america?page=full -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 13:40:31 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 19:40:31 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] American Nietzsche In-Reply-To: <4EC001AF.2070003@louisiana.edu> References: <4EC001AF.2070003@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: your funny! On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 6:43 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: > Me three. But one more and we have a herd. > > Jerry > > On 11/13/2011 11:10 AM, sheila black wrote: > > Me, too. > > ------------------------------ > Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 17:24:53 +0100 > From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] American Nietzsche > > I am very much in the spirit of Nietzsche... > > On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 5:19 PM, gabriel gudding > wrote: > > Am often still amazed to know Emerson was his favorite philosopher. Never > really read much Emerson until two years ago -- and I could immediately see > why E wd've been N's favorite. They're both all over the map. iconoclastic, > sons of clergy, fond of blatant contradiction and aphorism. That's a neat > article! > > On Sun, Nov 13, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Anny Ballardini < > anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote: > > ?How much truth can a spirit *bear*, how much truth can a spirit *dare*,? > Nietzsche tells us, is the ultimate ?measure of value.? > > *American Nietzsche* > *A History of an Icon and His Ideas.* > By Jennifer Ratner-Rosenhagen. > > > http://www.thenation.com/article/164321/american-idol-nietzsche-america?page=full > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carol.dorf at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 16:50:39 2011 From: carol.dorf at gmail.com (carol dorf) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2011 13:50:39 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Peas In-Reply-To: References: <12848075.1321058839203.JavaMail.root@wamui-june.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <8CE6F6982CB7E40-93C-25320@webmail-d030.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Catherine, I love this one. My husband used to chant "Give Peas a Chance," when his mother took him to demonstrations. All best, Carol On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 9:20 PM, Catherine Daly wrote: > Here's a link to my peas poem -- but the whole thing is only in the book > VAUXHALL: > > http://epc.buffalo.edu/mags/vert/Vert_issue_8/cdaly.html > > All best, > Catherine > > On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Patricia F Anderson < > patriciafanderson at gmail.com> wrote: > >> The biggest problem I have with this list is that you all share such >> wonderful poems, and then I scramble off to buy the books! And I can't >> afford to keep buying books like this! So then I hesitate to read the >> list, knowing I'll be tempted. (I do put many of them on the wishlist, >> but paydays are dangerous for book indulgence.) >> >> I really appreciate this poem, especially because I disagree with the >> character so much. Thank you for sharing it! >> >> - Patricia >> >> On Sat, Nov 12, 2011 at 10:47 AM, wrote: >> > Going Wrong >> > >> > >> > The fish are dreadful. They are brought up >> > the mountain in the dawn most days, beautiful >> > and alien and cold from night under the sea, >> > the grand rooms fading from their flat eyes, >> > Soft machinery of the dark, the man thinks, >> > washing them. ?What can you know of my machinery!? >> > demands the Lord. Sure, the man says quietly >> > and cuts into them, laying back the dozen struts, >> > getting to the muck of something terrible. >> > The Lord insists: ?You are the one who chooses >> > to live this way. I build cities where things >> > are human. I make Tuscany and you go to live >> > with rocks and silence.? The man washes away >> > the blood and arranges the fish on a big plate. >> > Starts the onions in the hot olive oil and puts >> > in peppers. ?You have lived all year without women.? >> > He takes out everything and puts in the fish. >> > ?No one knows where you are. People forget you. >> > You are vain and stubborn.? The man slices >> > tomatoes and lemons. Takes out the fish >> > and scrambles eggs. I am not stubborn, he thinks, >> > laying all of it on the table in the courtyard >> > full of early sun, shadows of swallows flying >> > on the food. Not stubborn, just greedy. >> > >> > Jack Gilbert, The Great Fires (Knopf, 1994) >> > >> > / >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New-Poetry mailing list >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Patricia Anderson / SL: Perplexity Peccable >> pfa at umich.edu OR patriciafanderson at gmail.com >> Emerging Technologies Librarian, Health Sciences Libraries, University >> of Michigan, 1135 East Catherine, Ann Arbor, MI 48109 >> "Google can give you 1,000 answers to your question. A librarian will >> give you the right one." Anonymous. >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 01:54:33 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 07:54:33 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Richard Berlin's New Book & Book Signing Party In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear Friends and Family, I just wanted to let you know that my second book of poetry SECRET WOUNDS, which was selected as the 2010 Winner of the John Ciardi Poetry Award, has just been published by BkMk Press. And just to make publication even sweeter, SECRET WOUNDS was recently selected by USA Book News (a literary/publishing trade group) as the best general poetry book published in the USA in 2011. I still can't quite get my arms around this news, but I'm working on it! Please join me to celebrate at a book signing party in the Berkshires: Date: Friday, December 16 Time: 7 PM Location: The Bookstore 11 Housatonic Street Lenox, MA 01240 413-637-3390 If you can't attend the party, or would just like to know more about the book, including ordering information, please visit my website www.richardmberlin.com I hope to see you at the book signing! Richard -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Mon Nov 14 14:27:49 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 11:27:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] U.S. Poet Laureate Philip Levine at the AFL-CIO Message-ID: <1321298869.9368.YahooMailClassic@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> ? Subject: Join U.S. Poet Laureate Philip Levine at the AFL-CIO President Richard Trumka invites you to join him for a reading: U.S. Poet Laureate Philip Levine at the AFL-CIO Tuesday, Nov. 15 1 p.m. Philip Levine's early experience as a Detroit autoworker is reflected in his poetry, which "elevates, and celebrates, the labor of America's working class," as Librarian of Congress Dr. James H. Billington described it. Called "the laureate of the industrial heartland," Levine has been awarded the Pulitzer Prize, two National Book Awards and many other prestigious honors. RSVP: http://act.aflcio.org/c/968/p/salsa/event/common/public/?event_KEY=6451 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 14:58:33 2011 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2011 14:58:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove on her Anthology of 20th Century Poetry Message-ID: > > Rita Dove is a Pulitzer Prize winner and former Poet Laureate, and she?s > also a competitive ballroom dancer. A professor at the University of > Virginia, Dove now has another credit to her name: editor of the new > Penguin Anthology of 20th Century American Poetry. > > The anthology, a sienna clothbound release, looks like something that > would be kept in a walnut bookshelf in the library of some British manor > house. But this is a distinctly American book, covering poems written by > American authors between 1900 and 2000. ?To me the anthology is all about > the poem and less about the poet,? Dove said in an interview. ?In the end, > all that remains is the poem, it is, as Dickinson says, that letter you > write to the world without expecting an answer.? > http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2011/10/26/rita-dove-on-editing-a-new-poetry-anthology/?mod=google_news_blog --Jeff Newberry -- Poetry is an act of non-mathematical creation that adheres to metrics embodied in language?s natural music. It isn?t a gush, but a felt and lived syncopation. ?Yusef Komunyakaa -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 05:54:31 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 11:54:31 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: The new ebook from Argotist Ebooks is "Endless, Beautiful, Exact" by Francesco Levato In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The new ebook from Argotist Ebooks is ?Endless, Beautiful, Exact? by Francesco Levato Description: A series of texts, remixed from appropriated oral and written source material, which explore interpersonal conflict through a fragmented and implied narrative. The author seems to have a clampdown on what he is willing to express, and what few words are allowed through are charged with emotion and tension. Available as a free ebook here: http://www.lulu.com/product/ebook/endless-beautiful-exact/18662430 Full Argotist Ebooks catalogue here: http://www.lulu.com/spotlight/argotistebooks -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Nov 15 12:57:58 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 12:57:58 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] My park Message-ID: <14973714.1321379879365.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> The New York Times is running a series about the ecology of the park that begins outside my window. Begins with a nice video. http://cityroom.blogs.nytimes.com/category/autumn-unfolds/ From jforjames at aol.com Tue Nov 15 14:05:23 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:05:23 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] The Song of Lunch Message-ID: <8CE71E0A99931F2-CE4-A3B05@webmail-d144.sysops.aol.com> http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/tv/la-et-song-of-lunch-20111112,0,7580395.story By Robert Lloyd, Los Angeles Times Television Critic November 12, 2011 "The Song of Lunch," which airs Sunday as part of PBS' "Masterpiece Contemporary" series, is something you don't see every day, not even in bardic old England, whence it comes, and where a 47-minute TV drama using a narrative poem for a screenplay would seem somewhat more likely than it would here. Christopher Reid is the poet whose 2009 book is the source of all the words spoken here, in order, nearly all of them by the wonderful Alan Rickman, and nearly all the rest of them by the equally wonderful Emma Thompson -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Tue Nov 15 14:12:29 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:12:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] single and undersirable Message-ID: <8CE71E1A74483E3-CE4-A3EA9@webmail-d144.sysops.aol.com> http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2011-11/11/content_14075930.htm BEIJING - The Chinese Single People's Association released a list - 11 Careers in China that Prospective Partners Shun the Most - on the eve of Singles' Day. Zhang Yiyi, who called himself the president of the association, said that poets, highly-admired in the past, topped the list of those having careers that were being seen as the most undesirable. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Tue Nov 15 14:47:59 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 19:47:59 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] single and undersirable In-Reply-To: <8CE71E1A74483E3-CE4-A3EA9@webmail-d144.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE71E1A74483E3-CE4-A3EA9@webmail-d144.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Oh, oh, we're a long way from Byron--mad, bad, and dangerous to know! To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu From: jforjames at aol.com Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:12:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] single and undersirable http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2011-11/11/content_14075930.htm BEIJING - The Chinese Single People's Association released a list - 11 Careers in China that Prospective Partners Shun the Most - on the eve of Singles' Day. Zhang Yiyi, who called himself the president of the association, said that poets, highly-admired in the past, topped the list of those having careers that were being seen as the most undesirable. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Tue Nov 15 14:45:58 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:45:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] 'Lady Gaga of spoken word poetry' Message-ID: <8CE71E654AD25EB-CE4-A4C53@webmail-d144.sysops.aol.com> http://www.diamondbackonline.com/diversions/the-lady-gaga-of-spoken-word-poetry-hits-campus-tonight-1.2698381 This "Lady Gaga" is Regie Cabico, champion of the Nuyorican Poets Caf? Grand Slam in 1993 and prizewinner in the 1993, 1994 and 1997 National Poetry Slams. While he has continued to perform since then, he also volunteers, teaching the art of the spoken word to everyone, from gay youth groups to psychiatric patients to students at this university tonight in the Clarice Smith Performing Arts Center. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 14:46:19 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:46:19 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] single and undersirable In-Reply-To: <8CE71E1A74483E3-CE4-A3EA9@webmail-d144.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE71E1A74483E3-CE4-A3EA9@webmail-d144.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Chinese are sometimes funny: "I founded the association to solve a serious social problem of the country, which is that there are too many *leftover* men and women right now," Zhang said. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 8:12 PM, wrote: > ****http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2011-11/11/content_14075930.htm**** > ****BEIJING** - **The** **Chinese** **Single** **People**'**s** ** > Association ****released** **a** **list** - 11 **Careers** **in** **China* > * **that** **Prospective ****Partners** **Shun** **the** **Most** - **on** > **the** **eve** **of** **Singles**' **Day**.** > ****Zhang** **Yiyi**, **who** **called** **himself** **the** **president** > **of** **the ****association**, **said** **that** **poets**, ** > highly-admired** **in** **the ****past**, **topped** **the** **list** **of > ** **those** **having** **careers** **that** **were ****being** **seen** * > *as** **the** **most** **undesirable**.** > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fox.skip at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 15:10:21 2011 From: fox.skip at gmail.com (Skip Fox) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 14:10:21 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Song of Lunch In-Reply-To: <8CE71E0A99931F2-CE4-A3B05@webmail-d144.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE71E0A99931F2-CE4-A3B05@webmail-d144.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Looking forward. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 1:05 PM, wrote: > > http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/tv/la-et-song-of-lunch-20111112,0,7580395.story > > By Robert Lloyd, Los Angeles Times Television Critic > November 12, 2011 > "The Song of Lunch," which airs Sunday as part of PBS' "Masterpiece > Contemporary" series, is something you don't see every day, not even in > bardic old England, whence it comes, and where a 47-minute TV drama using a > narrative poem for a screenplay would seem somewhat more likely than it > would here. > > Christopher Reid is the poet whose 2009 book is the source of all the > words spoken here, in order, nearly all of them by the wonderful Alan > Rickman, and nearly all the rest of them by the equally wonderful Emma > Thompson > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 15:13:06 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:13:06 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] November, 2011 issue of Sol Message-ID: This November, 2011 issue of *Sol: English Writing in Mexico *has poetry from Laura Merleau, Bill Pearlman, two poems by Wendy Taylor Carlisle and four poems from Sheila E. Murphy's "American Ghazals." There are book excerpts from Susan McKinney de Ortega (*Flirting in* * Spanish*), Christopher Cook (*Robbers*), Gerard Helferich (*Stone of Kings: In Search of the Lost Jade of the Maya*) and Joseph Dispenza (*Older Man/Younger Man: A Love Story)*.* *Fiction from Edward Gutierrez and Edward Swift, as well as other established writers in both nonfiction and fiction. We're introducing two new prose writers: Carol Merchasin and Susan J. Cobb. It's a packed issue, and we're proud of the writing excellence it contains. We hope you enjoy it as much as we've enjoyed putting it together. http://solliterarymagazine.com/ -- Jim Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org https://sites.google.com/site/jamesvcervantes/home http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Tue Nov 15 16:34:19 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:34:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] single and undersirable In-Reply-To: References: <8CE71E1A74483E3-CE4-A3EA9@webmail-d144.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1321392859.46584.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> I can understand how they may have leftover men.? Countries like China, in the age of selective abortion, have a serious discrepancy between the numbers of young men (more) and young women (fewer).? It's a sad situation.? >________________________________ >From: Anny Ballardini >To: NewPoetry List >Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 2:46 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] single and undersirable > > >Chinese are sometimes funny: > > >"I founded the association to solve a serious social problem of the country, which is that there are too many leftover men and women right now," Zhang said. > > > > >On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 8:12 PM, wrote: > >http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/2011-11/11/content_14075930.htm >>BEIJING?-?The?Chinese?Single?People's?Association?released?a?list?- 11?Careers?in?China?that?Prospective?Partners?Shun?the?Most?-?on?the?eve?of?Singles'?Day. >>Zhang?Yiyi,?who?called?himself?the?president?of?the?association,?said?that?poets,?highly-admired?in?the?past,?topped?the?list?of?those?having?careers?that?were?being?seen?as?the?most?undesirable. >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > >-- >Anny Ballardini >http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! >Friedrich Nietzsche > >? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >Giovenale > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Tue Nov 15 19:35:32 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 16:35:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] The Song of Lunch In-Reply-To: References: <8CE71E0A99931F2-CE4-A3B05@webmail-d144.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1321403732.58863.YahooMailNeo@web120524.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Unfortunately, this aired this past Sunday, the 13th.? It is, though, available to watch online at http://video.pbs.org/video/2166681265.? (The online replay expires on Dec 13th.) >________________________________ >From: Skip Fox >To: NewPoetry List >Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 3:10 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Song of Lunch > > >Looking forward. > > >On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 1:05 PM, wrote: > >http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/tv/la-et-song-of-lunch-20111112,0,7580395.story >> >> >>By Robert Lloyd, Los Angeles Times Television Critic >>November 12, 2011 >>"The Song of Lunch," which airs Sunday as part of PBS' "Masterpiece Contemporary" series, is something you don't see every day, not even in bardic old England, whence it comes, and where a 47-minute TV drama using a narrative poem for a screenplay would seem somewhat more likely than it would here. >> >> >>Christopher Reid is the poet whose 2009 book is the source of all the words spoken here, in order, nearly all of them by the wonderful Alan Rickman, and nearly all the rest of them by the equally wonderful Emma Thompson >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From almaginnes at aol.com Tue Nov 15 20:40:17 2011 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 01:40:17 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] single and undersirable In-Reply-To: <1321392859.46584.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <8CE71E1A74483E3-CE4-A3EA9@webmail-d144.sysops.aol.com> <1321392859.46584.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2123554757-1321407618-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2119818257-@b14.c31.bise6.blackberry> China also had tons of infant girls abandoned, many of whom were adopted by westerners. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: John Jeffrey Sender: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:34:19 To: NewPoetry List Reply-To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] single and undersirable _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jforjames at aol.com Tue Nov 15 20:58:42 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 20:58:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey Message-ID: <8CE721A669E6E28-630-9AA8C@webmail-m163.sysops.aol.com> Only part in front of the pay wall... http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/nov/24/are-these-poems-remember/ Rita Dove, a recent poet laureate (1993?1995), has decided, in her new anthology of poetry of the past century, to shift the balance, introducing more black poets and giving them significant amounts of space, in some cases more space than is given to better-known authors. These writers are included in some cases for their representative themes rather than their style. Dove is at pains to include angry outbursts as well as artistically ambitious meditations. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spearlstein at comcast.net Tue Nov 15 22:55:52 2011 From: spearlstein at comcast.net (spearlstein at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 22:55:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey In-Reply-To: <8CE721A669E6E28-630-9AA8C@webmail-m163.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE721A669E6E28-630-9AA8C@webmail-m163.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <67CBFCD9-8182-49FD-9240-2454B5783BD4@comcast.net> Without having read all of it it is hard to tell... Still, Vendler seems to be vivisecting the poetry of the many rather than the few, and it feels completely elitist to me... Sorry. I rarely write on this list, but I felt obligated to do so tonight.. Thanks, Sarah Pearlstein Occupy Poetry! Sent from my iPhone On Nov 15, 2011, at 8:58 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: > Only part in front of the pay wall... > > http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/nov/24/are-these-poems-remember/ > Rita Dove, a recent poet laureate (1993?1995), has decided, in her new anthology of poetry of the past century, to shift the balance, introducing more black poets and giving them significant amounts of space, in some cases more space than is given to better-known authors. These writers are included in some cases for their representative themes rather than their style. Dove is at pains to include angry outbursts as well as artistically ambitious meditations. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 06:00:46 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 12:00:46 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] for Richard Dillon Message-ID: Dear Richard, your email address was hacked. I received three mails with a link in the last 7/8 days. Anny -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tomasocarthaigh at yahoo.com Wed Nov 16 06:22:21 2011 From: tomasocarthaigh at yahoo.com (=?utf-8?B?VG9tw6FzIMOTIEPDoXJ0aGFpZ2g=?=) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 03:22:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Bus - Issue 3 --- Ransom Demand!!!!! Message-ID: <1321442541.42303.YahooMailClassic@web161606.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> http://www.fundit.ie/project/pb3-the-poetry-bus-mag-issue-three The Poetry Bus, Irelands newest and second best independent magazine (Cartys Poetry Journal being THE best, check it out!!!) is fundraising for the third issue. Its edited, its set, its ready to run, only its held hostage by the printers who are refusing to release it until the print run is paid for. The cheek of them, and it a recession and all!!! So the Poetry Bus Liberation Front is asking poetry lovers everywhere to help out with FUNDIT.ie and subscribe, where you can get a copy of issue 3, with a FreeCD and other enhanced packages!!! Background The Poetry Bus started off as a blog which started off as a thread on the website of the Stinging Fly (Irelands third best independent magazine after the Bus and Cartys Poetry Journal!!!). Two issues have hit the streets, and the next is in the garage as we speak. If you cant donate to get a copy, give it some publicity anyway, share online... we have ?600 to raise in 5 days!!!! Yabba dabba do it now, to paraphrase Peadar O Donoghue, the Poetry Bus chief engineer!!!! "a person with a good book is never alone... a writer until they've written one is never at peace" - www.writingsinrhyme.com??::: Add me on Facebook ::: My YouTube Videos? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Wed Nov 16 08:47:12 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 05:47:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" of Coded Racism In-Reply-To: <67CBFCD9-8182-49FD-9240-2454B5783BD4@comcast.net> References: <8CE721A669E6E28-630-9AA8C@webmail-m163.sysops.aol.com> <67CBFCD9-8182-49FD-9240-2454B5783BD4@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1321451232.30417.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Not only is the rationale here elitist (though she attempts to knock that charge off early on), it smacks of coded racism: "Multicultural inclusiveness prevails: some 175 poets are represented. No century in the evolution of poetry in English ever had 175 poets worth reading, so why are we being asked to sample so many poets of little or no lasting value? Anthologists may now be extending a too general welcome. Selectivity has been condemned as ?elitism,? and a hundred flowers are invited to bloom." While some might read Rita Dove's efforts as a recovery project, Vendler appears to like her poetry "pure" -- not "multicultural."? Let's not saturate too soon the lily white stream of poetry with those never given a real chance.? And let's ignore the past publishing practices called into question by the very existence of this anthology and make "tradition" ring true!? Frankly, I'm tired of the every poetry anthology resembling the last.? I've gone from using some edited by K. Koch and "off center" ones like the Eastern Europeans one to simply killing trees with countless photocopies or distributing by email poems to my students because anthologies no longer reflect what I find worth teaching. They're constrictive and offer a very limited trajectory of "poetry down the years."? I sample the "greats" and include many of the "unknowns" that Vendler would never permit enter that slender swath of poetry cradled by the canon. I mean, Gasp! 175 poets?? How could they be worth reading?? She's never heard of them, so it must be true.? But.? How many poets, female and non-white, have gone unpublished and ignored over the last century?? I suspect far more than 175.?? But Vendler makes her appeals for poetry's "sanctity" on the same level as those who? use fear-mongering to appeal to the likes of Joe the Plumber, NASCAR dads and soccer moms.? And her note that Dove "is at pains to include angry outbursts" because she includes more black poets simply reeks of the tactics Ali notes via his "gaslighting" article - http://www.huffingtonpost.com/yashar-hedayat/a-message-to-women-from-a_1_b_958859.html ? ? Even the accompanying photo, which contains several poets I admire, screams of omission, if one can get past their privilege and actually look: ? >http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/nov/24/are-these-poems-remember/ >Rita Dove, a recent poet laureate (1993?1995), has decided, in her new anthology of poetry of the past century, to shift the balance, introducing more black poets and giving them significant amounts of space, in some cases more space than is given to better-known authors. These writers are included in some cases for their representative themes rather than their style. Dove is at pains to include angry outbursts as well as artistically ambitious meditations. > >? Latest + This is a poetry equally committed to language as a tool with social obligations and language as an art material obligated to reveal its own beauty.? --John Ashbery -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Wed Nov 16 08:52:34 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 05:52:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" of Coded Racism In-Reply-To: <1321451232.30417.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <8CE721A669E6E28-630-9AA8C@webmail-m163.sysops.aol.com> <67CBFCD9-8182-49FD-9240-2454B5783BD4@comcast.net> <1321451232.30417.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1321451554.33004.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Sorry.? More.? I mean, she justifies the omissions by querying on the basis of numbers, "But I would still have been hungry for more than the six pages here of Wallace Stevens, more than the single poem by James Merrill." Isn't an anthology supposed to *lead* one to a poet's work?? So what happens when an unknown Lucille Clifton or Audre Lorde resonates with some of my students, but they never encounter their work?? Why isn't she asking who has been omitted down the years?? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carol.dorf at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 09:13:30 2011 From: carol.dorf at gmail.com (carol dorf) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 06:13:30 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey In-Reply-To: <67CBFCD9-8182-49FD-9240-2454B5783BD4@comcast.net> References: <8CE721A669E6E28-630-9AA8C@webmail-m163.sysops.aol.com> <67CBFCD9-8182-49FD-9240-2454B5783BD4@comcast.net> Message-ID: To me this indicates Vendler's limitations as a reader -- she's chosen a certain set of boundaries for "poetry" and isn't willing to read outside of them. On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 7:55 PM, wrote: > Without having read all of it it is hard to tell... Still, Vendler seems > to be vivisecting the poetry of the many rather than the few, and it feels > completely elitist to me... Sorry. I rarely write on this list, but I felt > obligated to do so tonight.. > > Thanks, > Sarah Pearlstein > > Occupy Poetry! > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Nov 15, 2011, at 8:58 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: > > Only part in front of the pay wall... > > > http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2011/nov/24/are-these-poems-remember/ > Rita Dove, a recent poet laureate (1993?1995), has decided, in her new > anthology of poetry of the past century, to shift the balance, introducing > more black poets and giving them significant amounts of space, in some > cases more space than is given to better-known authors. These writers are > included in some cases for their representative themes rather than their > style. Dove is at pains to include angry outbursts as well as artistically > ambitious meditations. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Wed Nov 16 09:19:21 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 06:19:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" of Coded Racism - Pardon my ire! In-Reply-To: <1321451554.33004.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <8CE721A669E6E28-630-9AA8C@webmail-m163.sysops.aol.com> <67CBFCD9-8182-49FD-9240-2454B5783BD4@comcast.net> <1321451232.30417.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <1321451554.33004.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1321453161.53910.YahooMailNeo@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I'm trying to get ready and rush out the door, but the three paragraphs available of Vendler's "critique" keep calling ... I am having trouble with the fact that a person of some marginal status (woman / lesbian) has built her career by using her critical skills to "protect" the canon.? Against what?? The black poets who express moments of anger?? We can tolerate / tokenize raisins (if they're benign dreams) sagging in the sun, and only on occasion, but we can't recognize that blacks poets from pre-Emancipation through the Civil Rights era might include "angry" content?? And if they weren't prolific poets, published through the years, they shouldn't be considered at all?? Because conditions were so conducive and encouraging to such poets to keep on writing, getting their work out there ... they "failed" on merit alone, I'm sure.? (sarcasm) I'm just utterly disappointed with the transparency of Vendler's whitewash here.? Pun very much intended.? I don't even want to see the rest of the article - I might express some anger, which is unbecoming to a poet.? Amy Latest + This is a poetry equally committed to language as a tool with social obligations and language as an art material obligated to reveal its own beauty.? --John Ashbery? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 09:28:54 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 08:28:54 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" of Coded Racism In-Reply-To: <1321451554.33004.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <8CE721A669E6E28-630-9AA8C@webmail-m163.sysops.aol.com> <67CBFCD9-8182-49FD-9240-2454B5783BD4@comcast.net> <1321451232.30417.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <1321451554.33004.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Aren't "gate-keepers" supposed to keep people out as well as let them in? I say, tear down the gates. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175 http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 7:52 AM, amy king wrote: > Sorry. More. I mean, she justifies the omissions by querying on the > basis of numbers, "But I would still have been hungry for more than the six > pages here of Wallace Stevens, more than the single poem by James Merrill." > > Isn't an anthology supposed to *lead* one to a poet's work? So what > happens when an unknown Lucille Clifton or Audre Lorde resonates with some > of my students, but they never encounter their work? Why isn't she asking > who has been omitted down the years? > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Wed Nov 16 10:27:04 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 15:27:04 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" of Coded Racism In-Reply-To: <1321451554.33004.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <8CE721A669E6E28-630-9AA8C@webmail-m163.sysops.aol.com>, <67CBFCD9-8182-49FD-9240-2454B5783BD4@comcast.net>, <1321451232.30417.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>, <1321451554.33004.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yay Amy! I couldn't agree more. I think great anthologies do two things ideally: 1. They lead you to peots you haven't read or been "fired up by." 2. They help you look at or think about poets you know in new ways. I suppose the challenge--I am dying to hear from someone who has actually read Dove's anthology--I feel I've already read SO MUCH about it, I worry I won't even be able to read it properly for a little while--is to be inclusive but have a strong enough aesthetic that a reader grasps the new terms you are setting. But I am in complete accord; we don't need another anthology that gives us what we know in the same way. Looking at who has been omitted down the years would be such a better way to begin... (Thanks for posting on this. I read Vendler's essay quickly--I have sometimes loved some of her as a critic in the past--and was irritated by it, but I hadn't really formulated for myself entirely why. You've said it all better than I could--it reminds me of a quote by Paul Eluard--"And I object to the love of ready-made images in place of images to be made.") Sheila Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 05:52:34 -0800 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com To: WOM-PO at LISTS.NCC.EDU CC: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" of Coded Racism Sorry. More. I mean, she justifies the omissions by querying on the basis of numbers, "But I would still have been hungry for more than the six pages here of Wallace Stevens, more than the single poem by James Merrill." Isn't an anthology supposed to *lead* one to a poet's work? So what happens when an unknown Lucille Clifton or Audre Lorde resonates with some of my students, but they never encounter their work? Why isn't she asking who has been omitted down the years? _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Nov 16 11:53:51 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 11:53:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" of CodedRacism In-Reply-To: References: <8CE721A669E6E28-630-9AA8C@webmail-m163.sysops.aol.com><67CBFCD9-8182-49FD-9240-2454B5783BD4@comcast.net><1321451232. 30417.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><1321451554.33004.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <849E655EAE8845AEAF3333E3D9FD7320@BobHP> From: Halvard Johnson Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 9:28 AM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" of CodedRacism Aren't "gate-keepers" supposed to keep people out as well as let them in? I say, tear down the gates. Sure, Hal, but should you say why they should be torn down? Possibly by indicating what they?re keeping out, which isn?t just a few names, but whole schools of poetry? --Repeatin? Robert -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Nov 16 11:58:03 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 11:58:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" of CodedRacism In-Reply-To: References: <8CE721A669E6E28-630-9AA8C@webmail-m163.sysops.aol.com>, <67CBFCD9-8182-49FD-9240-2454B5783BD4@comcast.net>, <1321451232.30417.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>, <1321451554.33004.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8C73A7B1829749FF9EAADBE297460EC2@BobHP> From: sheila black Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 10:27 AM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" of CodedRacism Yay Amy! I couldn't agree more. I think great anthologies do two things ideally: 1. They lead you to poets you haven't read or been "fired up by." 2. They help you look at or think about poets you know in new ways. Yes, to both?except that much valuable than leading people to poets they haven?t read is leading people to POETRIES they haven?t read. --Robert, repeatin? again (because I seem to be the only one disappointed that schools of poetry are being ignored rather than single poets whose kind of poetry, at least, is getting proper attention. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 12:14:47 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 11:14:47 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" of CodedRacism In-Reply-To: <849E655EAE8845AEAF3333E3D9FD7320@BobHP> References: <8CE721A669E6E28-630-9AA8C@webmail-m163.sysops.aol.com> <67CBFCD9-8182-49FD-9240-2454B5783BD4@comcast.net> <1321451554.33004.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <849E655EAE8845AEAF3333E3D9FD7320@BobHP> Message-ID: I say tear down those schools of poetry as well. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175 http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 10:53 AM, bob grumman wrote: > > > *From:* Halvard Johnson > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 16, 2011 9:28 AM > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" of > CodedRacism > > Aren't "gate-keepers" supposed to keep people out as well as let them in? > I say, tear down the gates. > > Sure, Hal, but should you say why they should be torn down? Possibly by > indicating what they?re keeping out, which isn?t just a few names, but > whole schools of poetry? > > --Repeatin? Robert > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Wed Nov 16 12:12:46 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 17:12:46 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" of CodedRacism In-Reply-To: <8C73A7B1829749FF9EAADBE297460EC2@BobHP> References: <8CE721A669E6E28-630-9AA8C@webmail-m163.sysops.aol.com>, , <67CBFCD9-8182-49FD-9240-2454B5783BD4@comcast.net>, , <1321451232.30417.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>, , <1321451554.33004.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>, , <8C73A7B1829749FF9EAADBE297460EC2@BobHP> Message-ID: Bob: Hey! I agree ENTIRELY. Well put. But I still--kind of a throwback that way--love the individual poet, too. But as a rule of thumb, you are right! Much more exciting if more anthologies did that-- From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 11:58:03 -0500 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" of CodedRacism From: sheila black Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 10:27 AM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" of CodedRacism Yay Amy! I couldn't agree more. I think great anthologies do two things ideally: 1. They lead you to poets you haven't read or been "fired up by." 2. They help you look at or think about poets you know in new ways. Yes, to both?except that much valuable than leading people to poets they haven?t read is leading people to POETRIES they haven?t read. --Robert, repeatin? again (because I seem to be the only one disappointed that schools of poetry are being ignored rather than single poets whose kind of poetry, at least, is getting proper attention. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Nov 16 12:20:07 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 12:20:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" of CodedRacism Message-ID: <5f230.3674677b.3bf54ac7@cs.com> In a message dated 11/16/2011 11:15:01 AM Central Standard Time, halvard at gmail.com writes: > > I say tear down those schools of poetry as well. > > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > > Hal > > > > Wasn't the Department of Poetry the third one Rick Perry couldn't remember? Sam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 12:42:07 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 11:42:07 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" of CodedRacism In-Reply-To: <5f230.3674677b.3bf54ac7@cs.com> References: <5f230.3674677b.3bf54ac7@cs.com> Message-ID: Yay to Amy's take-down. Vendler's is a real dog-whistle of a review. Hard to believe V's really decrying the lack of more representation for Stevens or Merrill. But the history of poetry's nothing if not a chronicle of doozies, lies, privilege, and violence. Ick. And good for Dove. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 11:20 AM, wrote: > In a message dated 11/16/2011 11:15:01 AM Central Standard Time, > halvard at gmail.com writes: > > > I say tear down those schools of poetry as well. > > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > > Hal > > > > > Wasn't the Department of Poetry the third one Rick Perry couldn't remember? > > Sam > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From spearlstein at comcast.net Wed Nov 16 12:33:32 2011 From: spearlstein at comcast.net (spearlstein at comcast.net) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 12:33:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" of Coded Racism In-Reply-To: <1321451554.33004.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <8CE721A669E6E28-630-9AA8C@webmail-m163.sysops.aol.com> <67CBFCD9-8182-49FD-9240-2454B5783BD4@comcast.net> <1321451232.30417.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <1321451554.33004.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5A37E4CE-E799-4934-8089-7C08CA90569E@comcast.net> I completely agree with you, Amy, thank you for taking the time to elucidate.... Be well, all. Sarah Pearlstein Sent from my iPhone On Nov 16, 2011, at 8:52 AM, amy king wrote: > Sorry. More. I mean, she justifies the omissions by querying on the basis of numbers, "But I would still have been hungry for more than the six pages here of Wallace Stevens, more than the single poem by James Merrill." > > Isn't an anthology supposed to *lead* one to a poet's work? So what happens when an unknown Lucille Clifton or Audre Lorde resonates with some of my students, but they never encounter their work? Why isn't she asking who has been omitted down the years? > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Nov 16 12:47:56 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 12:47:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" ofCodedRacism In-Reply-To: References: <8CE721A669E6E28-630-9AA8C@webmail-m163.sysops.aol.com><67CBFCD9-8182-49FD-9240-2454B5783BD4@comcast.net><1321451554. 33004.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><849E655EAE8 845AEAF3333E3D9FD7320@BobHP> Message-ID: From: Halvard Johnson Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 12:14 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" ofCodedRacism I say tear down those schools of poetry as well. How, if they are invisible, thanks in large part to Dove and Vendler?and people like you, Hal? --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 12:53:39 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 11:53:39 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" ofCodedRacism In-Reply-To: References: <8CE721A669E6E28-630-9AA8C@webmail-m163.sysops.aol.com> <67CBFCD9-8182-49FD-9240-2454B5783BD4@comcast.net> Message-ID: Moi? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175 http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 11:47 AM, bob grumman wrote: > > > *From:* Halvard Johnson > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 16, 2011 12:14 PM > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" > ofCodedRacism > > I say tear down those schools of poetry as well. > > How, if they are invisible, thanks in large part to Dove and Vendler?and > people like you, Hal? > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Nov 16 12:55:54 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 12:55:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" ofCodedRacism In-Reply-To: References: <5f230.3674677b.3bf54ac7@cs.com> Message-ID: From: gabriel gudding Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 12:42 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" ofCodedRacism Yay to Amy's take-down. Vendler's is a real dog-whistle of a review. Hard to believe V's really decrying the lack of more representation for Stevens or Merrill. But the history of poetry's nothing if not a chronicle of doozies, lies, privilege, and violence. Ick. And good for Dove. Phooey on Dove, but?yes about Stevens and Merrill. Why does Vendler need Stevens in the anthology, at all? Doesn?t she have copies of all his poems already? Ditto anyone preferring Merrill. I tend to think a non-canonical anthology would be nice. But, sorry Gabe?based on the aesthetic value of its contents rather its political correctness. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 12:56:43 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 11:56:43 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Sheila, Yes, it seems we're in accord in a basic way and that much of the substance of our disagreement lies in different definitions of words/concepts. And that in a few places, yes, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think a key pt of Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics is that we don't *worry*(to use yr word) about goodness or happiness. It follows naturally from a magnanimity and willingness to vitalize, part of which entails being "capable of being at leisure well," for "recreation is the one beginning of everything." And what he draws from that are clear lines between skills we might now call merely aesthetic and their use in ethical situations. Reminds me of what Stein says in "What are Masterpieces": to be a genius [dubious thing to be surely, but:] one must do nothing for a very long time. I really think beyond a certain point it doesn't matter what words we use to describe our intentions about art. Art does what it does. But it also has a pernicious way of turning on itself, and it's there that we can shine some light. For example, I've seen colleagues in poetry (and even a few students graduating from the university I teach at over the years) who adopt the mantle of the, to use yr term, "revolutionary" writer -- only to become more or less what they didn't like. As Bourdieu says in his excellent analysis of "ritual sacrilege" in art (the idea that we sacralize the "transgressive," "radical," "revolutionary"): "Paradoxically, nothing more clearly reveals the logic of the functioning of the artistic field than the fate of these apparently radical attempts at subversion." "So beauty, the unknown, the primacy of imagination, those would be areas I would keep perhaps a little under-observed if I could." For me less so. And these are precisely the areas we are beginning to shine a lot on and I hope we'll continue to do so. My experience has been the more I've come to understand about something, the more my curiosity and wonder grows, not the less. I am grateful to those scholars who situate and historicize these notions precisely because they've specifically hidden a host of reactionary stuff. I mentioned earlier in this thread David Morgan's great article in the Journal of the History of Ideas from 1996 in which he examined the history of empathy theory in late 19th-early20th century German art -- and I think something like that is an excellent example of an untangling of the various threads of these notions. BTW, if you've not read Douglas Robinson's 2008 book _Estrangement and the Somatics of Literature_, it's astounding, especially chpt 3 "Shklovsky's Modernist Poetics," in which he proposes a theory of art's role in "collective proprioception" (feeling our body [thoughts are included here as part of the body] as part of the bodies of others, & feeling others' bodies through our own body]. Thank you for a great conversation, Sheila (and Mark and Catherine and all)... gabe -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 13:07:52 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 12:07:52 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" ofCodedRacism In-Reply-To: References: <5f230.3674677b.3bf54ac7@cs.com> Message-ID: Bob - It's PC to suggest a dog-whistle politics in Vendler's aesthetics? On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 11:55 AM, bob grumman wrote: > > > *From:* gabriel gudding > *Sent:* Wednesday, November 16, 2011 12:42 PM > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" > ofCodedRacism > > Yay to Amy's take-down. Vendler's is a real dog-whistle of a review. > > Hard to believe V's really decrying the lack of more representation for > Stevens or Merrill. But the history of poetry's nothing if not a chronicle > of doozies, lies, privilege, and violence. Ick. > > And good for Dove. > > Phooey on Dove, but?yes about Stevens and Merrill. Why does Vendler need > Stevens in the anthology, at all? Doesn?t she have copies of all his poems > already? Ditto anyone preferring Merrill. I tend to think a non-canonical > anthology would be nice. But, sorry Gabe?based on the aesthetic value of > its contents rather its political correctness. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Wed Nov 16 13:35:20 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 12:35:20 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" of CodedRacism In-Reply-To: References: <5f230.3674677b.3bf54ac7@cs.com> Message-ID: <4EC40268.6070301@louisiana.edu> There's another point floating here--the weird claim (Amy mentioned it) that "No century in the evolution of poetry in English ever had 175 poets worth reading." What kind of exhaustion is speaking here? "Worth reading" is what it's all about--what's worth reading to me, worth reading to my students, worth reading to Bob Grumman, etc. My own sense is that no one who reads a poem or two (thousand) that's not worth reading is reading enough poetry--certainly not enough to snatch a podium and start lecturing. As a teacher, not to mention just as a human being, I know that there are lots of poems that are perversely written, ideologically nasty, and intellectually superficial that have been very much worth _my_ reading at one time or another, because (like a scientist who may learn something new by catching a glimpse of a bug he's never seen before) my reading--my sense of what is worth reading--is basically motivated by curiositywhose primary expression is the imposition of arbitrary limits. I'm not trying to answer or critique Vendler's comments about Dove's anthology here, or the sense that what's "worth reading" is a decision entrusted to Dove by a corporate cabal at Penguin--that what's "worth reading," in other words, is contextual in ways neither Dove nor Vendler wants to acknowledge. I'm just saying that that "175" points to a chasm between Vendler's way of thinking about this art and any responsible way of thinking about it I can imagine. Jerry On 11/16/2011 11:42 AM, gabriel gudding wrote: > Yay to Amy's take-down. Vendler's is a real dog-whistle of a review. > > Hard to believe V's really decrying the lack of more representation > for Stevens or Merrill. But the history of poetry's nothing if not a > chronicle of doozies, lies, privilege, and violence. Ick. > > And good for Dove. > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 11:20 AM, > wrote: > > In a message dated 11/16/2011 11:15:01 AM Central Standard Time, > halvard at gmail.com writes: >> > I say tear down those schools of poetry as well. > > > > Serving the tri-state area. > > > Hal > > > > > Wasn't the Department of Poetry the third one Rick Perry couldn't > remember? > > Sam > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- ________________________________________________________ Jerry McGuire English Department Box 44691 University of Louisiana at Lafayette Lafayette LA 70504-4691 337-482-5478 Creative Writing Website: http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html ______________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Nov 16 14:24:15 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 14:24:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL"ofCodedRacism In-Reply-To: References: <5f230.3674677b.3bf54ac7@cs.com> Message-ID: <6B0025F47DD345209E906FC33401BE1A@BobHP> From: gabriel gudding Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 1:07 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL"ofCodedRacism Bob - It's PC to suggest a dog-whistle politics in Vendler's aesthetics? Tough to know, Gabe. But I was reacting more to the yay to Amy?s ?take-down,? which?with its charges of implicit racism, etc., seems very PC to me, as does about everything Amy does. Your characterization of the history of poetry suggests PC to me, too, although I tend to agree ?privilege?s? being too much a factor. Tricky word, of course?for me the ?privilege? is that going to those certified for their pluck in resisting innovation, to others, it is more likely to be that of the evil white protestant males. I?m all for privilege, but only if I consider it earned (which makes it, I admit, quite subjective). Not sure about your ?lies? and ?violence,? either. Lots of people getting things wrong, sometimes incredibly so, but not, I don?t think, lying. And I don?t know of a real violence, except for Burroughs shooting his wife, and I?m not sure he could be considered a poet. Stupidity and fear seem to me better terms for it. --Bob On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 11:55 AM, bob grumman wrote: From: gabriel gudding Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 12:42 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" ofCodedRacism Yay to Amy's take-down. Vendler's is a real dog-whistle of a review. Hard to believe V's really decrying the lack of more representation for Stevens or Merrill. But the history of poetry's nothing if not a chronicle of doozies, lies, privilege, and violence. Ick. And good for Dove. Phooey on Dove, but?yes about Stevens and Merrill. Why does Vendler need Stevens in the anthology, at all? Doesn?t she have copies of all his poems already? Ditto anyone preferring Merrill. I tend to think a non-canonical anthology would be nice. But, sorry Gabe?based on the aesthetic value of its contents rather its political correctness. --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From elemenope_productions at hotmail.com Wed Nov 16 14:32:46 2011 From: elemenope_productions at hotmail.com (R Dillon) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:32:46 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption In-Reply-To: References: <24131589.1320117601549.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net>, , , , , , <1320427940.51038.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com>, , , , , , , , , , , , , , Message-ID: "The Declaration spoke of [the proposition that 'all men are created equal'] as a 'self-evident' truth, grounded in the 'nature' of human beings; the nature that made men separate from animals. In that ancient understanding, human beings did not deserve to be ruled in the way that humans ruled dogs, horses, and monkeys. Creatures who could give and understand reasons deserved to be ruled through the giving of reasons, by a government that would seek the consent of the governed. It was Lincoln's argument in the debate with Douglas that this 'right' of human beings to govern themselves had a natural foundation: It would hold true in all places where the nature of human beings remained the same. It would not depend on the conventions that were dominant in one place or another; it could not rest simply on the habits of the local tribe or the sufferance of a local majority."?Hadley Arkes, Beyond the Constitution (1990), p. 43. Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 11:56:43 -0600 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] empathy, poetry, meat consumption Hi Sheila, Yes, it seems we're in accord in a basic way and that much of the substance of our disagreement lies in different definitions of words/concepts. And that in a few places, yes, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I think a key pt of Aristotle's Nicomachean Ethics is that we don't worry (to use yr word) about goodness or happiness. It follows naturally from a magnanimity and willingness to vitalize, part of which entails being "capable of being at leisure well," for "recreation is the one beginning of everything." And what he draws from that are clear lines between skills we might now call merely aesthetic and their use in ethical situations. Reminds me of what Stein says in "What are Masterpieces": to be a genius [dubious thing to be surely, but:] one must do nothing for a very long time. I really think beyond a certain point it doesn't matter what words we use to describe our intentions about art. Art does what it does. But it also has a pernicious way of turning on itself, and it's there that we can shine some light. For example, I've seen colleagues in poetry (and even a few students graduating from the university I teach at over the years) who adopt the mantle of the, to use yr term, "revolutionary" writer -- only to become more or less what they didn't like. As Bourdieu says in his excellent analysis of "ritual sacrilege" in art (the idea that we sacralize the "transgressive," "radical," "revolutionary"): "Paradoxically, nothing more clearly reveals the logic of the functioning of the artistic field than the fate of these apparently radical attempts at subversion." "So beauty, the unknown, the primacy of imagination, those would be areas I would keep perhaps a little under-observed if I could." For me less so. And these are precisely the areas we are beginning to shine a lot on and I hope we'll continue to do so. My experience has been the more I've come to understand about something, the more my curiosity and wonder grows, not the less. I am grateful to those scholars who situate and historicize these notions precisely because they've specifically hidden a host of reactionary stuff. I mentioned earlier in this thread David Morgan's great article in the Journal of the History of Ideas from 1996 in which he examined the history of empathy theory in late 19th-early20th century German art -- and I think something like that is an excellent example of an untangling of the various threads of these notions. BTW, if you've not read Douglas Robinson's 2008 book _Estrangement and the Somatics of Literature_, it's astounding, especially chpt 3 "Shklovsky's Modernist Poetics," in which he proposes a theory of art's role in "collective proprioception" (feeling our body [thoughts are included here as part of the body] as part of the bodies of others, & feeling others' bodies through our own body]. Thank you for a great conversation, Sheila (and Mark and Catherine and all)... gabe _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Nov 16 14:38:07 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 14:38:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL"of CodedRacism In-Reply-To: <4EC40268.6070301@louisiana.edu> References: <5f230.3674677b.3bf54ac7@cs.com> <4EC40268.6070301@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <90B5517A30FF40ECA337FA5FDEC098A2@BobHP> From: Jerry McGuire Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 1:35 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL"of CodedRacism There's another point floating here--the weird claim (Amy mentioned it) that "No century in the evolution of poetry in English ever had 175 poets worth reading." What kind of exhaustion is speaking here? "Worth reading" is what it's all about--what's worth reading to me, worth reading to my students, worth reading to Bob Grumman, etc. Tricky problem, Jerry. So many factors, like the value of reading failed poetry that just might have done something poorly that no one else did, and which, done well, could be of great value. To be a little autobiographical. But I have to say I?m sure Vendler meant, ?worth being canonized in an authoritative anthology.? Or: ?really really really worth reading.? I doubt that the twentieth-century produced 175 poets in English really really really worth reading. For aesthetic reasons, since some could have been worth reading for linguistic, sociologic, or similar studies. But no critic yet has much of a grasp, certainly not Vendler, on the poetry of the final twenty or thirty years of the century. (Certainly not I!) I still think we should be thinking about the first half of the twentieth-century. How many major poets in English were in their prime then? I don?t think more than twenty to thirty although I haven?t started a list. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Wed Nov 16 14:44:13 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 14:44:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] how about a poem Message-ID: <38581DF8-055E-4097-A471-27AAD784AD99@mikesnider.org> This one's a phone call, both sides. He speaks first, and I usually put her lines in italic, so I'll use slashes here. Long Distance I miss you, baby, miss you more than sex. /Oh yeah? So you've had sex since you've seen me?/ Well, Rosie's good at squeezing chicken necks. /She's there and wet already, isn't she?/ She needs some sweet talk -- and a little lotion. /Too bad for you, 'cause Charles is hard for me./ So quick? He must have drunk that magic potion. /He doesn't need it, any more than you .../ I sure don't need it now ... just steady motion ... I miss your smell. But what else can I do? /Just call tomorrow night. I miss you too./ www.mikesnider.org From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 14:57:02 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 20:57:02 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] single and undersirable In-Reply-To: <2123554757-1321407618-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2119818257-@b14.c31.bise6.blackberry> References: <8CE71E1A74483E3-CE4-A3EA9@webmail-d144.sysops.aol.com> <1321392859.46584.YahooMailNeo@web120530.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> <2123554757-1321407618-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2119818257-@b14.c31.bise6.blackberry> Message-ID: They unluckily 'steal' infant boys, I followed for a while some articles that depicted this situation. A large group of parents described how their infant boys had been taken away from them. It seems that it is still a shame to give birth to a girl, especially in the provinces. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 2:40 AM, wrote: > China also had tons of infant girls abandoned, many of whom were adopted > by westerners. > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Jeffrey > Sender: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2011 13:34:19 > To: NewPoetry List > Reply-To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] single and undersirable > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 14:59:20 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 20:59:20 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Song of Lunch In-Reply-To: <1321403732.58863.YahooMailNeo@web120524.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <8CE71E0A99931F2-CE4-A3B05@webmail-d144.sysops.aol.com> <1321403732.58863.YahooMailNeo@web120524.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Probably no pbs videos for Italy... On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 1:35 AM, John Jeffrey wrote: > Unfortunately, this aired this past Sunday, the 13th. It is, though, > available to watch online at http://video.pbs.org/video/2166681265. (The > online replay expires on Dec 13th.) > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Skip Fox > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Sent:* Tuesday, November 15, 2011 3:10 PM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] The Song of Lunch > > Looking forward. > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 1:05 PM, wrote: > > > http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/tv/la-et-song-of-lunch-20111112,0,7580395.story > > By Robert Lloyd, Los Angeles Times Television Critic > November 12, 2011 > "The Song of Lunch," which airs Sunday as part of PBS' "Masterpiece > Contemporary" series, is something you don't see every day, not even in > bardic old England, whence it comes, and where a 47-minute TV drama using a > narrative poem for a screenplay would seem somewhat more likely than it > would here. > > Christopher Reid is the poet whose 2009 book is the source of all the > words spoken here, in order, nearly all of them by the wonderful Alan > Rickman, and nearly all the rest of them by the equally wonderful Emma > Thompson > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Wed Nov 16 14:59:21 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 13:59:21 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" of CodedRacism In-Reply-To: <4EC40268.6070301@louisiana.edu> References: <5f230.3674677b.3bf54ac7@cs.com> <4EC40268.6070301@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <4EC41619.9030202@louisiana.edu> I don't know how it happened, but a chunk of my last post got chopped out so that part of it wound up meaning very nearly the opposite of what I had originally written. I can't reconstruct it perfectly now, but this would be close: where it reads "my reading--my sense of what is worth reading--is basically motivated by curiositywhose primary expression is the imposition of arbitrary limits" it should read, more or less, "my reading--my sense of what is worth reading--is basically motivated by curiosity, not by professional authority or a solipsistic certainty about "worth"--or, worse, by an investment in some system of power whose primary expression is the imposition of arbitrary limits." I'm sure that's not precisely what I wrote before, but it catches the spirit, I think. Jerry On 11/16/2011 12:35 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: > There's another point floating here--the weird claim (Amy mentioned > it) that "No century in the evolution of poetry in English ever had > 175 poets worth reading." What kind of exhaustion is speaking here? > "Worth reading" is what it's all about--what's worth reading to me, > worth reading to my students, worth reading to Bob Grumman, etc. My > own sense is that no one who reads a poem or two (thousand) that's not > worth reading is reading enough poetry--certainly not enough to snatch > a podium and start lecturing. As a teacher, not to mention just as a > human being, I know that there are lots of poems that are perversely > written, ideologically nasty, and intellectually superficial that have > been very much worth _my_ reading at one time or another, because > (like a scientist who may learn something new by catching a glimpse of > a bug he's never seen before) my reading--my sense of what is worth > reading--is basically motivated by curiositywhose primary expression > is the imposition of arbitrary limits. I'm not trying to answer or > critique Vendler's comments about Dove's anthology here, or the sense > that what's "worth reading" is a decision entrusted to Dove by a > corporate cabal at Penguin--that what's "worth reading," in other > words, is contextual in ways neither Dove nor Vendler wants to > acknowledge. I'm just saying that that "175" points to a chasm between > Vendler's way of thinking about this art and any responsible way of > thinking about it I can imagine. > > Jerry > > On 11/16/2011 11:42 AM, gabriel gudding wrote: >> Yay to Amy's take-down. Vendler's is a real dog-whistle of a review. >> >> Hard to believe V's really decrying the lack of more representation >> for Stevens or Merrill. But the history of poetry's nothing if not a >> chronicle of doozies, lies, privilege, and violence. Ick. >> >> And good for Dove. >> >> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 11:20 AM, > > wrote: >> >> In a message dated 11/16/2011 11:15:01 AM Central Standard Time, >> halvard at gmail.com writes: >>> >> I say tear down those schools of poetry as well. >> >> >> >> Serving the tri-state area. >> >> >> Hal >> >> >> >> >> Wasn't the Department of Poetry the third one Rick Perry couldn't >> remember? >> >> Sam >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- > ________________________________________________________ > > Jerry McGuire > English Department Box 44691 > University of Louisiana at Lafayette > Lafayette LA 70504-4691 > 337-482-5478 > Creative Writing Website: > http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html > ______________________________________________________ > -- ________________________________________________________ Jerry McGuire English Department Box 44691 University of Louisiana at Lafayette Lafayette LA 70504-4691 337-482-5478 Creative Writing Website: http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html ______________________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Wed Nov 16 15:08:35 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Michael Snider) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 15:08:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Song of Lunch In-Reply-To: <1321403732.58863.YahooMailNeo@web120524.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <8CE71E0A99931F2-CE4-A3B05@webmail-d144.sysops.aol.com> <1321403732.58863.YahooMailNeo@web120524.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <79EA5C6A-6884-40FB-AF2F-549A0C8C3325@mikesnider.org> Thanks for the link! A data point on the monetary value of poetry: Amazon.com has available a used paperback copy of The Song of Lunch - and it's listed at $221.82. I wonder why such precision in the price. http://www.amazon.com/Song-Lunch-Christopher-Reid/dp/0956107303/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1321474005&sr=8-3 www.mikesnider.org On Nov 15, 2011, at 19:35, John Jeffrey wrote: > Unfortunately, this aired this past Sunday, the 13th. It is, though, available to watch online at http://video.pbs.org/video/2166681265. (The online replay expires on Dec 13th.) > > > From: Skip Fox > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2011 3:10 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Song of Lunch > > Looking forward. > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 1:05 PM, wrote: > http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/tv/la-et-song-of-lunch-20111112,0,7580395.story > > By Robert Lloyd, Los Angeles Times Television Critic > November 12, 2011 > "The Song of Lunch," which airs Sunday as part of PBS' "Masterpiece Contemporary" series, is something you don't see every day, not even in bardic old England, whence it comes, and where a 47-minute TV drama using a narrative poem for a screenplay would seem somewhat more likely than it would here. > > Christopher Reid is the poet whose 2009 book is the source of all the words spoken here, in order, nearly all of them by the wonderful Alan Rickman, and nearly all the rest of them by the equally wonderful Emma Thompson > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 15:28:26 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 14:28:26 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" of CodedRacism In-Reply-To: <4EC41619.9030202@louisiana.edu> References: <5f230.3674677b.3bf54ac7@cs.com> <4EC40268.6070301@louisiana.edu> <4EC41619.9030202@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: Point taken, Bob (tho I disagree w how you characterize Amy's contributions as PC). As for my mention of violence and lies: there I'm thinking of Bourdieu's "symbolic violence" as an intrinsic part of art production and his "misrecognition" and "illusio" as part of how belief in the value of writers and literary artifacts is created. For, EG, the way that gender was policed/administered by 1950s reviewers of poetry by women, see Ed Brunner's _Cold War Poetry: the Social Text in the 1950s Poem_. Pretty awesome book. Just an example of dog-whistle policing. I like what Jerry sd. Those are good questions. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 1:59 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: > ** > I don't know how it happened, but a chunk of my last post got chopped out > so that part of it wound up meaning very nearly the opposite of what I had > originally written. I can't reconstruct it perfectly now, but this would be > close: where it reads "my reading--my sense of what is worth reading--is > basically motivated by curiositywhose primary expression is the imposition > of arbitrary limits" it should read, more or less, "my reading--my sense > of what is worth reading--is basically motivated by curiosity, not by > professional authority or a solipsistic certainty about "worth"--or, worse, > by an investment in some system of power whose primary expression is the > imposition of arbitrary limits." > > I'm sure that's not precisely what I wrote before, but it catches the > spirit, I think. > > Jerry > > > On 11/16/2011 12:35 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: > > There's another point floating here--the weird claim (Amy mentioned it) > that "No century in the evolution of poetry in English ever had 175 poets > worth reading." What kind of exhaustion is speaking here? "Worth reading" > is what it's all about--what's worth reading to me, worth reading to my > students, worth reading to Bob Grumman, etc. My own sense is that no one > who reads a poem or two (thousand) that's not worth reading is reading > enough poetry--certainly not enough to snatch a podium and start lecturing. > As a teacher, not to mention just as a human being, I know that there are > lots of poems that are perversely written, ideologically nasty, and > intellectually superficial that have been very much worth _my_ reading at > one time or another, because (like a scientist who may learn something new > by catching a glimpse of a bug he's never seen before) my reading--my sense > of what is worth reading--is basically motivated by curiositywhose primary > expression is the imposition of arbitrary limits. I'm not trying to answer > or critique Vendler's comments about Dove's anthology here, or the sense > that what's "worth reading" is a decision entrusted to Dove by a corporate > cabal at Penguin--that what's "worth reading," in other words, is > contextual in ways neither Dove nor Vendler wants to acknowledge. I'm just > saying that that "175" points to a chasm between Vendler's way of thinking > about this art and any responsible way of thinking about it I can imagine. > > Jerry > > On 11/16/2011 11:42 AM, gabriel gudding wrote: > > Yay to Amy's take-down. Vendler's is a real dog-whistle of a review. > > Hard to believe V's really decrying the lack of more representation for > Stevens or Merrill. But the history of poetry's nothing if not a chronicle > of doozies, lies, privilege, and violence. Ick. > > And good for Dove. > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 11:20 AM, wrote: > >> In a message dated 11/16/2011 11:15:01 AM Central Standard Time, >> halvard at gmail.com writes: >> >> >> I say tear down those schools of poetry as well. >> >> >> >> Serving the tri-state area. >> >> >> Hal >> >> >> >> >> Wasn't the Department of Poetry the third one Rick Perry couldn't >> remember? >> >> Sam >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- > ________________________________________________________ > > Jerry McGuire > English Department Box 44691 > University of Louisiana at Lafayette > Lafayette LA 70504-4691337-482-5478 > Creative Writing Website:http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html > ______________________________________________________ > > > > -- > ________________________________________________________ > > Jerry McGuire > English Department Box 44691 > University of Louisiana at Lafayette > Lafayette LA 70504-4691337-482-5478 > Creative Writing Website:http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html > ______________________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Nov 16 15:53:43 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 15:53:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler and Dove In-Reply-To: <6B0025F47DD345209E906FC33401BE1A@BobHP> References: <5f230.3674677b.3bf54ac7@cs.com> <6B0025F47DD345209E906FC33401BE1A@BobHP> Message-ID: <12A9DE31433644D39F079B18A55B7284@BobHP> I got hold of a copy of Vendler?s review and have now read it. So far I just have random impressions of it. One is that Vendler is not nearly as cruel as some posts make her seem. Certainly she gives much more than just her side on many issues. For instance, she merely suggests the value of a more exclusive anthology, but gives reasons for other kinds. She even voices my belief that we already can find canonized works, so don?t need them repeated in an anthology, and I was wrong to take an out-of-context quotation to indicate she herself would rather read an anthology with many more Stevens poems in it and fewer by lessers in it; actually she opined that for a young new-comer to poetry person would enjoy the anthology more if that were the case. Basically, she uses the anthology as an excuse to correct Dove about Stevens and other poets. She takes pains to show that Stevens could be a ?tragic poet,? too, not just the aesthete that Dove described him as. The usual standard nonsense that no work of art is of the highest value unless death is in it. Vendler didn?t seem as arrogant as I thought she might be. But opinionated, that?s for sure. Doesn?t think much of Dove as an essayist. But supports the contention with examples of her flaws, and why they are flaws?like an English teacher with a student?s paper. The worst thing she did in my view was claim a dead passage by Baraka ?turns sentimental, in the manner of E. E. Cummings,? which is crap. Cummings seems to me too sentimental at times, but his sentimentality was far superior in expression and much different from Baraka?s. But I?m as sensitive to remarks about Cummings as Vendler is to remarks about Stevens. Needless to say, I didn?t change my mind about how narrow Vendler?s taste is. Oh, like so many members of an establishment, she sneers at the idea that such a thing exists in the world of poetry. Thinking about the absurdity of that, I realized that I, believe it or not, am a member of a literary establishment, the visual poetry establishment. A tindy uninfluential establishment, to be sure, but one, nonetheless. With factions, me fairly high in one, Kenny Goldsmith probably similar high in the other main one. With people in both factions, others in neither. Kind of interesting. In any case, I think it insane to poo poo the idea of a poetry establishment. No field exists?unless less than a few years old?that lacks an establishment. Which doesn?t mean they are formal or conscious or conspiracies. They are just there, almost always with more power than they should have. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Nov 16 16:09:01 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 16:09:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" ofCodedRacism In-Reply-To: References: <5f230.3674677b.3bf54ac7@cs.com><4EC40268.6070301 @louisiana.edu> <4EC41619.9030202@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <2C1AE901B39A487980BED9613F1BE899@BobHP> From: gabriel gudding Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 3:28 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" ofCodedRacism Point taken, Bob (tho I disagree w how you characterize Amy's contributions as PC). Ha, I think they?re worse than PC, but will say no more! As for my mention of violence and lies: there I'm thinking of Bourdieu's "symbolic violence" as an intrinsic part of art production and his "misrecognition" and "illusio" as part of how belief in the value of writers and literary artifacts is created. For, EG, the way that gender was policed/administered by 1950s reviewers of poetry by women, see Ed Brunner's _Cold War Poetry: the Social Text in the 1950s Poem_. Pretty awesome book. Just an example of dog-whistle policing. I don?t wanna get into all that, although if I were less impoverished, I?d order a copy of the Brunner book. I always have trouble with accusations of ?gender policing??mainly with whether or not it was decided in advance that women?s poetry was inferior or whether it was simply a fact that what there was of it did seem inferior to the reviewers of the time. (And may have been although it?s practically illegal to say so.) The one good point the feminists have made, it seems to me, is that some few women were writing poetry equal to the best few men?s poetry, but wrote about feminine subjects, and they do exist, from a feminine point of view, which I backwardly believe is innately different (with rare exceptions) from the innate masculine point of view, so men naturally underrated the poetry of women as a matter of taste not as part of some kind of power struggle. Although it?s very complex, and I think I?ve said more than I should have. I don?t think anyone can claim that the lot of female poets is far better now than it was then. I like what Jerry sd. Those are good questions. Jerry?s comments are always worth reading, even when they?re stupit. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Wed Nov 16 16:15:56 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 21:15:56 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] continuation Message-ID: Gabriel: Thanks for your reply. I actually feel we are beginning to get somewhere or I am beginning to understand a bit better where we are in accord AND where we differ (which can be interesting). First accord--I like--love-- Aristotle's idea of ethics viz: not worrying about "goodness" or "happiness" but that these spring from a "vitalized being" as it were, but I don't know what we are ever acting or being agents in an open field where our actions are not in some sense imposed upon--or to use a tricky word for me--deformed by the pressure of what is outside us. I agree completely when you say: Art does what it does. But it also has a pernicious way of turning on itself, and it's there that we can shine some light. For example, I've seen colleagues in poetry (and even a few students graduating from the university I teach at over the years) who adopt the mantle of the, to use yr term, "revolutionary" writer -- only to become more or less what they didn't like...." And yet I realized one difference between us might be that I come at this question of "art" or "discourse" from a more--I'm looking for the right word here-- far more skeptical or even paranoid position that you do. I have always been kind of fascinated by that first flush of Modernism-- Baudelaire when they begin to see the world (as Neitszche puts it) where god is dead, and they are actually, through mostly non-believers, somewhat horrified by this idea because it is occurring simultaneously to the upsurge of modern capitalist in which everything is or can be "material." Some critic I read--I think actually--and God this will show how old or old-fashioned I am--it was Lionel Trilling--but I do like some of those old "humanist" critics--said something to the effect that "after this period "good" for the artist could not accepted at face value, but must always be regarded with some suspicion because of all the endless "specious" good of the modern capitalist discourse--the "good' of product. I think of Baudelaire-- almost consumed as with a fever to create endless images of passivity, non-productivity. And later, much later--in fact I am making a completely indefensible (from a scholarly point of view) leap here, Foucault will, in some sense, comment on this question or problem by asserting we should look not at bodies of knowledge in and of themselves but in terms of how (why, wherefore, by whom) they are produced. He will also point out-- and I think I was referencing this when with my remark about "areas a little under-observed" that we think we become more liberated about a subject--sexuality for example--by talking about it, but in fact the increased discourse itself can be a normalizing or even repressive device. I was struck in this regard by what you said--"My experience has been the more I've come to understand about something , the more my curiosity and wonder grows, not the less." I agree with you entirely, but I quess the question I would ask if how are we gaining that knowledge how are we assessing its quality--a question which goes back for me to Walter Benjamin and his distinction between "information" or "news" and "experience." A funny side bar to this--a few years ago I noticed very specific bird references started appearing in all sorts of people's poems (people I would not describe as especially good nature lovers) and THEN I noticed I was using more specific references to birds myself--though I am a very amateurish bird watcher, dreadful at it really, though it gives me great pleasure when I do manage to observe ANYTHING--and it was all thanks to Google. Now, in a way this might be seen as a real advantage--more and better information always at our fingertips--but in another sense you have to wonder how knowledge of birds gained from Google is different from knowledge gained--oh, I don't know, out on a freezing marsh at dawn. Or put another way is that information we can get at our fingertips leading to different kinds or types of assumptions (understandings, empathies even) than we might make or have if we sat outside, trying hard (and perhaps even failing) to glimpse even a single bird. I love--one of the stories I love--in the history of birding, the story of Gilbert White who was a great amateur naturalist and, indirectly, one of the first to build observations that led to an understanidng of bird migration. He kept wondering where all the birds WENT in the winter--he--or so the story I remember goes--looked all over for them, forever bursting into his neighbors' barns and attics and even breaking on occassion into local church bell-towers. He thought perhaps the birds buried themselves in straw to stay warm, or hid themselves in the steeples of churches. He came to believe they buried themselves under the ice of local rivers and lakes, sucking in air from river reeds--that they hibernated like bears. He was wrong, but what he began to see from direct observation and could not understand eventually helped lead to a right answer. Not sure why entirely I love that story so much, but I do wonder if part of what increases one's wonder through knowledge is the sense of deepening mystery. A friend of mine said to me recently that Foucault said basically that no system could altogether explain a human being--a mistake to think so, even if one felt oneself getting closer. That might be my position--not so different from yours, except in emphasis. I mean, I am convinced in some fundamental way of things being difficult and broken--partial and obscure-- which is perhaps the difference in where we place our intellectual emphasis, and I would be curious how much that might come, concious or not, from our differing senses of the ability to occupy privilege or claim it. At the same time, I admire the positivity with which you assert many of your claims--one I find myself sometimes too small to even essay...Well, in any case, it is a good conversation. Thanks! Sheila PS: And I shall look at Mr. Robinson's book--the chapter about the collective. I like the idea of the collective, but you can't forget--ever-- the other side--which is the collective that mutes, the collective that removes the rare and the strange--the horror, for instance, of Sylvia Plath's bees, etc. And you can just call this particular addendum: Still paranoid! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Wed Nov 16 16:17:40 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 13:17:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL"ofCodedRacism In-Reply-To: <6B0025F47DD345209E906FC33401BE1A@BobHP> References: <5f230.3674677b.3bf54ac7@cs.com> <6B0025F47DD345209E906FC33401BE1A@BobHP> Message-ID: <1321478260.12008.YahooMailNeo@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I'll take this bait, as clearly "Bob" has been missing my attentions.? Gabe -- Consider the source before prolonged engagement.? "Bob-Wilshcocklyitis" is not apt to change his mind, but he spends lots of his time here, rendering everything through "Bob-goggles."? If you don't also see through them, the reductions begin.? This is a guy who decreed Louis Armstrong something along the lines of the "unstudied primitive" (oh comfy minstrel) because Armstrong never showed his "pedigreed" university papers proving Bob's version of "legitimacy."? Bob also enjoys mocking? a dialect he wishes to remain uninformed about "because he can," and ignoring any and all calls for accountability (too much effort to think past one's own nose!).? As Bob's views on race matters are so informed, I feel no need to offer him some (sorely-needed) primers to read because he would never touch the stuff.? He will instead invent new terminology and force everyone, ad nauseum, into the box of his nestled privileged position, and if? you don't go quietly into that grade-school terminology, well he knows how to cite old hat terminology (i.e. "PC") in an effort to shut you down or shame you.? When I looked up "ignorance is bliss," there was a photo of "B-O-B" in action.? Seriously though, a quick scan of the archives will give you some context for "Bob" and an idea of exactly how productive any ensuing discussion might be.? Denial of context is a condition for discussions with "Bob" too.? Unless you're speaking of the "Bob-context."? You needn't say much; just watch the numbers of "Bob" posts pile up over the next few hours.? Guaranteed. Amy ? ________________________________ From: bob grumman Tough to know, Gabe.? But I was reacting more to the yay to Amy?s ?take-down,? which?with its charges of implicit racism, etc., seems very PC to me, as does about everything Amy does.? Your characterization of the history of poetry suggests PC to me, too, although I tend to agree ?privilege?s? being too much a factor.? Tricky word, of course?for me the ?privilege? is that going to those certified for their pluck in resisting innovation, to others, it is more likely to be that of the evil white protestant males.? I?m all for privilege, but only if I consider it earned (which makes it, I admit, quite subjective).?? Not sure about your ?lies? and ?violence,? either.? Lots of people getting things wrong, sometimes incredibly so, but not, I don?t think, lying.? And I don?t know of a real violence, except for Burroughs shooting his wife, and I?m not sure he could be considered a poet.? Stupidity and fear seem to me better terms for it.? ? --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Wed Nov 16 16:20:31 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 13:20:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" ofCodedRacism In-Reply-To: <2C1AE901B39A487980BED9613F1BE899@BobHP> References: <5f230.3674677b.3bf54ac7@cs.com><4EC40268.6070301 @louisiana.edu> <4EC41619.9030202@louisiana.edu> <2C1AE901B39A487980BED9613F1BE899@BobHP> Message-ID: <1321478431.44475.YahooMailNeo@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Oh, make it so, whatever powers exist.? Make - it - so. From: bob grumman Ha, I think they?re worse than PC, but will say no more! ***** Latest + This is a poetry equally committed to language as a tool with social obligations and language as an art material obligated to reveal its own beauty.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Wed Nov 16 16:24:52 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 21:24:52 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?windows-1256?q?FW=3A__Re=3A__empathy=2C_poetry=2C_?= =?windows-1256?q?meat_consumption=FE?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ooops I hit send too fast with that last message. Here is what I mean to say without typos! From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 21:15:56 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] continuation Gabriel: Thanks for your reply. I actually feel we are beginning to get somewhere, or I am beginning to understand a bit better where we are in accord AND where we differ (which can be interesting). First accord--I like--love-- Aristotle's idea of ethics viz: not worrying about "goodness" or "happiness" but that these spring from a "vitalized being" as it were, but I don't know that we are ever acting or being agents in an open field where our actions are not in some sense imposed upon--or to use a tricky word for me--deformed by the pressure of what is outside us. I agree completely when you say: "Art does what it does. But it also has a pernicious way of turning on itself, and it's there that we can shine some light. For example, I've seen colleagues in poetry (and even a few students graduating from the university I teach at over the years) who adopt the mantle of the, to use yr term, "revolutionary" writer -- only to become more or less what they didn't like...." And yet I realize one difference between us might be that I come at this question of "art" or "discourse" from a more--I'm looking for the right word here-- far more skeptical or even paranoid position that you do. I have always been kind of fascinated by that first flush of Modernism-- Baudelaire, et al. when they begin to see the world (as Nietzsche puts it) where God is dead, and they are actually, through mostly non-believers, somewhat horrified by this idea because it is occurring simultaneously to the upsurge of modern capitalism in which everything is or can be "material." Some critic I read--I think actually--and God, this will show how old or old-fashioned I am--it was Lionel Trilling--but I do like some of those old "humanist" critics--said something to the effect that "after this period "good" for the artist could not accepted at face value, but must always be regarded with some suspicion, because of all the endless "specious" good of the modern capitalist discourse--the "good' of product. I think of Baudelaire-- almost consumed as with a fever to create endless images of passivity, non-productivity. And later, much later--in fact I am making a completely indefensible (from a scholarly point of view) leap here-- Foucault will, in some sense, comment on this question or problem by asserting we should look not at bodies of knowledge in and of themselves but in terms of how (why, wherefore, by whom) they are produced. He will also point out-- and I think I was referencing this when with my remark about "areas a little under-observed"--that we think we become more liberated about a subject--sexuality for example--by talking about it, but in fact the increased discourse itself can be a normalizing or even repressive device. I was struck in this regard by what you said--"My experience has been the more I've come to understand about something, the more my curiosity and wonder grows, not the less." I agree with you entirely, but I guess the question I would ask is HOW are we gaining that knowledge how are we assessing its quality?--a question which goes back for me to Walter Benjamin and his distinction between "information" or "news" and "experience." A funny side bar to this--a few years ago I noticed very specific bird references started appearing in all sorts of people's poems (poets I would not describe as especially good nature lovers) and THEN I noticed I was using more specific references to birds myself--though I am a very amateurish bird watcher, dreadful at it really, --and it was all thanks to Google. Now, in a way this might be seen as a real advantage--more and better information always at our fingertips--but in another sense you have to wonder how knowledge of birds gained from Google is different from knowledge gained--oh, I don't know, out on a freezing marsh at dawn. Or, put another way, is that information we can get at our fingertips leading to different kinds or types of assumptions (understandings, empathies even) than we might make or have if we sat outside, trying hard (and perhaps even failing) to glimpse even a single bird. I love--one of the stories I love--in the history of birding, the story of Gilbert White who was a great amateur naturalist and, indirectly, one of the first to build observations that led to an understanding of bird migration. He kept wondering where all the birds WENT in the winter--he--or so the story I remember goes--looked all over for them, forever bursting into his neighbors' barns and attics and even breaking into local church bell-towers. He thought perhaps the birds buried themselves in straw to stay warm, or hid themselves in the steeples of churches. He came to believe they buried themselves under the ice of local rivers and lakes, sucking in air from river reeds--that they hibernated like bears. He was wrong, but what he began to see from direct observation and could not understand eventually helped lead to a right answer. Not sure why entirely I love that story so much, but I do wonder if part of what increases one's wonder through knowledge is the sense of deepening mystery. A friend of mine said to me recently that Foucault said basically that no system could altogether explain a human being--a mistake to think so, even if one felt oneself getting closer. That might be my position--not so different from yours, except in emphasis. I mean, I am convinced in some fundamental way of things being difficult and broken--partial and obscure-- which is perhaps the difference in where we place our intellectual emphasis, and I would be curious how much that might come, consciously or not, from our differing senses of the ability to occupy privilege or claim it. At the same time, I admire the positivity with which you assert many of your claims--one I find myself sometimes too small to even essay...Well, in any case, it is a good conversation. Thanks! Sheila PS: And I shall look at Mr. Robinson's book--the chapter about the collective. I like the idea of the collective, but you can't forget--ever- the other side--which is the collective that mutes, the collective that removes the rare and the strange--the horror, for instance, of Sylvia Plath's bees, etc. (And you can just call this particular addendum: Still paranoid...) _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: ATT00001 URL: From antrobin at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 18:30:28 2011 From: antrobin at gmail.com (Anthony Robinson) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 15:30:28 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler and Dove In-Reply-To: <12A9DE31433644D39F079B18A55B7284@BobHP> References: <5f230.3674677b.3bf54ac7@cs.com> <6B0025F47DD345209E906FC33401BE1A@BobHP> <12A9DE31433644D39F079B18A55B7284@BobHP> Message-ID: Bob, You're getting soft in your old age. Not a bit of snark in this thoughtful post. Huh. Tony On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 12:53 PM, bob grumman wrote: > I got hold of a copy of Vendler?s review and have now read it. So far > I just have random impressions of it. One is that Vendler is not nearly as > cruel as some posts make her seem. Certainly she gives much more than just > her side on many issues. For instance, she merely suggests the value of a > more exclusive anthology, but gives reasons for other kinds. She even > voices my belief that we already can find canonized works, so don?t need > them repeated in an anthology, and I was wrong to take an out-of-context > quotation to indicate she herself would rather read an anthology with many > more Stevens poems in it and fewer by lessers in it; actually she opined > that for a young new-comer to poetry person would enjoy the anthology more > if that were the case. Basically, she uses the anthology as an excuse to > correct Dove about Stevens and other poets. She takes pains to show that > Stevens could be a ?tragic poet,? too, not just the aesthete that Dove > described him as. The usual standard nonsense that no work of art is of > the highest value unless death is in it. > > Vendler didn?t seem as arrogant as I thought she might be. But > opinionated, that?s for sure. Doesn?t think much of Dove as an essayist. > But supports the contention with examples of her flaws, and why they are > flaws?like an English teacher with a student?s paper. The worst thing she > did in my view was claim a dead passage by Baraka ?turns sentimental, in > the manner of E. E. Cummings,? which is crap. Cummings seems to me too > sentimental at times, but his sentimentality was far superior in expression > and much different from Baraka?s. But I?m as sensitive to remarks about > Cummings as Vendler is to remarks about Stevens. Needless to say, I > didn?t change my mind about how narrow Vendler?s taste is. > > Oh, like so many members of an establishment, she sneers at the idea > that such a thing exists in the world of poetry. Thinking about the > absurdity of that, I realized that *I*, believe it or not, am a member of > a literary establishment, the visual poetry establishment. A tindy > uninfluential establishment, to be sure, but one, nonetheless. With > factions, me fairly high in one, Kenny Goldsmith probably similar high in > the other main one. With people in both factions, others in neither. > Kind of interesting. In any case, I think it insane to poo poo the idea of > a poetry establishment. No field exists?unless less than a few years > old?that lacks an establishment. Which doesn?t mean they are formal or > conscious or conspiracies. They are just there, almost always with more > power than they should have. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 18:39:57 2011 From: antrobin at gmail.com (Anthony Robinson) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 15:39:57 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" of Coded Racism - Pardon my ire! In-Reply-To: <1321453161.53910.YahooMailNeo@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <8CE721A669E6E28-630-9AA8C@webmail-m163.sysops.aol.com> <67CBFCD9-8182-49FD-9240-2454B5783BD4@comcast.net> <1321451232.30417.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <1321451554.33004.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <1321453161.53910.YahooMailNeo@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Others here have already expressed well enough my general feelings toward Vendler. She is a talented, but limited, reader of poetry and is aesthetically challenged, though when she knows her stuff, she knows her stuff. Her point about Dove's one-dimensional reading of Stevens is welcome here because I think Dove's take on WS is the "standard" one, but not at all objectively "True." As for "protecting" the canon, we need to talk about which canon. Of couse, the capital C canon you speak of here comes to mind first, but canon-making, as we know, is an ongoing process and I wonder if it would be at all instructive to look at other, perhaps more marginal, instances of canon protection and formation. I specifically note the time I spent in and around an MFA program. I regularly was called out for poems that, among other things, were *not angry enough.* I, and other poets of color or of a non-heterosexual bent, were regularly told, in only slightly equivocal terms, that we were "self loathing" or "writing white." If you were a white heterosexual in the program, you had two models available to you: Philip Levine and Sharon Olds. A young visiting professor almost got canned for daring to teach Lyn Hejinian, among others. The senior poet-professor told her that we MUST NOT "confuse" undergrads and first year grad students with "that kind of writing." And so on and so forth. I could go on. But the "canon" is, of course, pretty damned subjective, no matter who or what the establishment happens to be at a certain time or in a certain place. The other day, a friend of mine posted a call on Facebook for the names of a few poets who best represent what is going on NOW in "contemporary poetry." I could help but roll my eyes. How much time do you have? Tony On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 6:19 AM, amy king wrote: > I'm trying to get ready and rush out the door, but the three paragraphs > available of Vendler's "critique" keep calling ... > > I am having trouble with the fact that a person of some marginal status > (woman / lesbian) has built her career by using her critical skills to > "protect" the canon. Against what? The black poets who express moments of > anger? We can tolerate / tokenize raisins (if they're benign dreams) > sagging in the sun, and only on occasion, but we can't recognize that > blacks poets from pre-Emancipation through the Civil Rights era might > include "angry" content? And if they weren't prolific poets, published > through the years, they shouldn't be considered at all? Because conditions > were so conducive and encouraging to such poets to keep on writing, getting > their work out there ... they "failed" on merit alone, I'm sure. (sarcasm) > > I'm just utterly disappointed with the transparency of Vendler's whitewash > here. Pun very much intended. I don't even want to see the rest of the > article - I might express some anger, which is unbecoming to a poet. > > Amy > > Latest > + This is a poetry equally committed to language as a tool with social > obligations and language as an art material obligated to reveal its own > beauty. --John > Ashbery > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From htthinc at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 18:44:40 2011 From: htthinc at gmail.com (Paul Howell) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 18:44:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler and Dove In-Reply-To: References: <5f230.3674677b.3bf54ac7@cs.com> <6B0025F47DD345209E906FC33401BE1A@BobHP> <12A9DE31433644D39F079B18A55B7284@BobHP> Message-ID: I agree with Bob here. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 6:30 PM, Anthony Robinson wrote: > Bob, > > You're getting soft in your old age. Not a bit of snark in this thoughtful > post. > > Huh. > > Tony > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 12:53 PM, bob grumman wrote: > >> I got hold of a copy of Vendler?s review and have now read it. So far >> I just have random impressions of it. One is that Vendler is not nearly as >> cruel as some posts make her seem. Certainly she gives much more than just >> her side on many issues. For instance, she merely suggests the value of a >> more exclusive anthology, but gives reasons for other kinds. She even >> voices my belief that we already can find canonized works, so don?t need >> them repeated in an anthology, and I was wrong to take an out-of-context >> quotation to indicate she herself would rather read an anthology with many >> more Stevens poems in it and fewer by lessers in it; actually she opined >> that for a young new-comer to poetry person would enjoy the anthology more >> if that were the case. Basically, she uses the anthology as an excuse to >> correct Dove about Stevens and other poets. She takes pains to show that >> Stevens could be a ?tragic poet,? too, not just the aesthete that Dove >> described him as. The usual standard nonsense that no work of art is of >> the highest value unless death is in it. >> >> Vendler didn?t seem as arrogant as I thought she might be. But >> opinionated, that?s for sure. Doesn?t think much of Dove as an essayist. >> But supports the contention with examples of her flaws, and why they are >> flaws?like an English teacher with a student?s paper. The worst thing she >> did in my view was claim a dead passage by Baraka ?turns sentimental, in >> the manner of E. E. Cummings,? which is crap. Cummings seems to me too >> sentimental at times, but his sentimentality was far superior in expression >> and much different from Baraka?s. But I?m as sensitive to remarks about >> Cummings as Vendler is to remarks about Stevens. Needless to say, I >> didn?t change my mind about how narrow Vendler?s taste is. >> >> Oh, like so many members of an establishment, she sneers at the idea >> that such a thing exists in the world of poetry. Thinking about the >> absurdity of that, I realized that *I*, believe it or not, am a member >> of a literary establishment, the visual poetry establishment. A tindy >> uninfluential establishment, to be sure, but one, nonetheless. With >> factions, me fairly high in one, Kenny Goldsmith probably similar high in >> the other main one. With people in both factions, others in neither. >> Kind of interesting. In any case, I think it insane to poo poo the idea of >> a poetry establishment. No field exists?unless less than a few years >> old?that lacks an establishment. Which doesn?t mean they are formal or >> conscious or conspiracies. They are just there, almost always with more >> power than they should have. >> >> --Bob >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 18:46:51 2011 From: antrobin at gmail.com (Anthony Robinson) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 15:46:51 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler and Dove In-Reply-To: References: <5f230.3674677b.3bf54ac7@cs.com> <6B0025F47DD345209E906FC33401BE1A@BobHP> <12A9DE31433644D39F079B18A55B7284@BobHP> Message-ID: Yeah, me too. That's why I was so surprised. Tony On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 3:44 PM, Paul Howell wrote: > I agree with Bob here. > > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 6:30 PM, Anthony Robinson wrote: > >> Bob, >> >> You're getting soft in your old age. Not a bit of snark in this >> thoughtful post. >> >> Huh. >> >> Tony >> >> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 12:53 PM, bob grumman wrote: >> >>> I got hold of a copy of Vendler?s review and have now read it. So >>> far I just have random impressions of it. One is that Vendler is not >>> nearly as cruel as some posts make her seem. Certainly she gives much more >>> than just her side on many issues. For instance, she merely suggests the >>> value of a more exclusive anthology, but gives reasons for other kinds. >>> She even voices my belief that we already can find canonized works, so >>> don?t need them repeated in an anthology, and I was wrong to take an >>> out-of-context quotation to indicate she herself would rather read an >>> anthology with many more Stevens poems in it and fewer by lessers in it; >>> actually she opined that for a young new-comer to poetry person would enjoy >>> the anthology more if that were the case. Basically, she uses the >>> anthology as an excuse to correct Dove about Stevens and other poets. She >>> takes pains to show that Stevens could be a ?tragic poet,? too, not just >>> the aesthete that Dove described him as. The usual standard nonsense that >>> no work of art is of the highest value unless death is in it. >>> >>> Vendler didn?t seem as arrogant as I thought she might be. But >>> opinionated, that?s for sure. Doesn?t think much of Dove as an essayist. >>> But supports the contention with examples of her flaws, and why they are >>> flaws?like an English teacher with a student?s paper. The worst thing she >>> did in my view was claim a dead passage by Baraka ?turns sentimental, in >>> the manner of E. E. Cummings,? which is crap. Cummings seems to me too >>> sentimental at times, but his sentimentality was far superior in expression >>> and much different from Baraka?s. But I?m as sensitive to remarks about >>> Cummings as Vendler is to remarks about Stevens. Needless to say, I >>> didn?t change my mind about how narrow Vendler?s taste is. >>> >>> Oh, like so many members of an establishment, she sneers at the idea >>> that such a thing exists in the world of poetry. Thinking about the >>> absurdity of that, I realized that *I*, believe it or not, am a member >>> of a literary establishment, the visual poetry establishment. A tindy >>> uninfluential establishment, to be sure, but one, nonetheless. With >>> factions, me fairly high in one, Kenny Goldsmith probably similar high in >>> the other main one. With people in both factions, others in neither. >>> Kind of interesting. In any case, I think it insane to poo poo the idea of >>> a poetry establishment. No field exists?unless less than a few years >>> old?that lacks an establishment. Which doesn?t mean they are formal or >>> conscious or conspiracies. They are just there, almost always with more >>> power than they should have. >>> >>> --Bob >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Nov 16 19:12:31 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:12:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" of CodedRacism - Pardon my ire! In-Reply-To: References: <8CE721A669E6E28-630-9AA8C@webmail-m163.sysops.aol.com><67CBFCD9-8182-49FD-9240-2454B5783BD4@comcast.net><1321451232. 30417.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><1321451554.33004.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><1321453161.53910.Yah ooMailNeo@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The other day, a friend of mine posted a call on Facebook for the names of a few poets who best represent what is going on NOW in "contemporary poetry." I could help but roll my eyes. How much time do you have? Tony That especially caught my eye, Tony: I?d beg off?on the grounds that I am still basically in the nineties and have almost no idea what?s going on NOW. I doubt, though, that any of the poets in the Penguin represent it. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Nov 16 19:16:34 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:16:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler and Dove In-Reply-To: References: <5f230.3674677b.3bf54ac7@cs.com><6B0025F47DD345209E906FC33401BE1A@BobHP><12A9DE31433644D39F079B18A55B7284@Bo bHP> Message-ID: <6559ABF813BF40CEB1AD07691EE05153@BobHP> From: Anthony Robinson Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 6:46 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Vendler and Dove Yeah, me too. That's why I was so surprised. Tony Oh, well, I guess it?s back to the drawing board then. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 19:19:43 2011 From: antrobin at gmail.com (Anthony Robinson) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 16:19:43 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" of CodedRacism - Pardon my ire! In-Reply-To: References: <8CE721A669E6E28-630-9AA8C@webmail-m163.sysops.aol.com> <67CBFCD9-8182-49FD-9240-2454B5783BD4@comcast.net> <1321451554.33004.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Bob, Well, I sorta went off on a tangent there. I haven't read the new Penguin, so I'm not sure if these poets represent what's going on NOW. My point though, was that, there's all kinds of stuff GOING ON NOW. What's IMPORTANT? Again, who the hell knows. I am not a polemicist for a particular "brand" of poetry, so I'm not going to recommend Bob Grumman or Geof Huth as what's going on NOW because I think Vis-Po is what's important, for example. Neither am I going to champion that old mouth-breather Levine or any of his protogees. The FB poster I mentioned would have better asked the question: hey, what poets do you like? Otherwise we're just playing a battling canons game. Tony On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 4:12 PM, bob grumman wrote: > The other day, a friend of mine posted a call on Facebook for the names > of a few poets who best represent what is going on NOW in "contemporary > poetry." I could help but roll my eyes. How much time do you have? > > Tony > > That especially caught my eye, Tony: I?d beg off?on the grounds that I > am still basically in the nineties and have almost no idea what?s going on > NOW. I doubt, though, that any of the poets in the Penguin represent it. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 19:25:19 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 18:25:19 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] continuation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Sheila, [I've cut and pasted your non-typo'd post below so as to honor the new subject heading] :) I suppose I'm probably really doing Aristotle an injustice by cribbing him like that, but what's so important (I think) about him is the emphasis given to seeing the connections between, on the one hand, enjoyment/aesthetics, magnanimity, having/cultivating a friendly mind (eunoia) and, on the other, virtues, ethics, and politics. He plots a natural continuum between them. Nietzsche has similar views, in a sense, in that he insists "generosity" toward others (which he considers the highest of all virtues, as it is the fount of all virtues) constitutes a kind of care for one's self. To be generous toward others, is to care for one's self -- he thus called generosity a kind of noble selfishness. But many still find it difficult to see how aesthetics and ethics blend. What you write here strikes me as very key: "but I don't know that we are ever acting or being agents in an open field where our actions are not in some sense imposed upon--or to use a tricky word for me--deformedby the pressure of what is outside us." And I think this is why I'm grateful for sociologists and neuroethicists talking to judges and prosecutors. Judith Butler puts it this way, "[T]o take the self-generated acts of the individual as our point of departure in moral reasoning is precisely to foreclose the possibility of questioning what kind of world gives rise to such individuals." Many other moral philosophers (Marcia Homiak, Annette C. Baier, Barbara Herman, Cheshire Calhoun) also have the same beef with old notions of individuality and individual agency. A lot of people think autonomy is the keystone feature of moral competency. It's a notion with strong ties to gender constructions and it has historically kept a lot of moral philosophy from becoming/being politically responsible. It's a really good idea, I think, to begin to see how deeply all of us are actually connected. Men and rich people were the first person to be individuals. Took women a Long Time to get there. Now that we're beginning to see how individuals are really nodes on a web, is probably good to consider/study/honor how the nodes and webs constitute each other. Because this has been hard won. When you say, "one difference between us might be that I come at this question of 'art' or 'discourse' from a more... skeptical or even paranoid position that you do," I have to say I'm *very* skeptical that you are more skeptical (or more paranoid!) about art than I am. I really have a jaundiced view of it, which is why I so appreciate Bourdieu's critique of art worlds. I know Foucault's argument that you outline -- and in fact was enchanted with it for a long time -- until I was persuaded by Lahire and Bourdieu and others that he is simply wrong. Studying things as a means of liberating ourselves does not entrench the things studied. He provided a good critique of power but he was wrong not to root it in the material. The story about Gilbert White is really amazing. I'm going to remember that! > > "Not sure why entirely I love that story so much, but I do wonder if part > of what increases one's wonder through knowledge is the sense of deepening > mystery." > Yes, I would say so. I was talking with a rabid evangelical christian recently who sd he felt sorry for me bc I didn't believe in his Jesus. And he insisted my world was impoverished and empty because I didn't see think his lord was real. And that my faith and universities and learning was dry and empty. I love Richard Dawkins for this. He insists that the more he's understood about genetics and evolution and the natural world, the more he is shocked by the mystery and the more he finds it absolutely wondrous. This is the guy who is fond of repeating the story of the editor of New Scientist who, when asked by a reporter what the philosophy of New Scientist is, replied, "The philosophy of New Scientist Magazine is 'Science is great, and if you don't like it you can fuck off.'" And this is a question/curiosity I share: "I would be curious how much that might come, consciously or not, from our differing senses of the ability to occupy privilege or claim it." And I think it's something we need to (continue to) study! :) It's funny: these days I'm far less paranoid about sociology, history, ethics, moral philosophy and neuroscience than I am about art, poetry, creative writing, most literary scholarship, literary life and reviews. I see VERY little liberatory power in most poetry and art. And sometimes the most politically quietistic stuff I see is the stuff that's purporting to be "experimental," "transgressive," and innovative. When it's ethically vibrant *and* aesthetically innovative, *then* we have a winning combination. But most of it, meh, I'd rather read Jane Goodall and Stephen Jay Gould. :) I will send you backchannel a PDF of chpt 3 of Robinson's book. It's 54 pages. And it really doesn't get to rocking until the last 20 pages or so. There's a long dry spell in the middle. Kind of like life. :) Big hug, Gabe <> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Wed Nov 16 19:26:34 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 16:26:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler and Dove Message-ID: <1321489594.13204.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Who are some of the members,? the leaders,? of this establishment? & do these establishment figures determine whether a writer is read or ignored? Bloom must belong to something lofty ... something that yields considerable influence ... that thing called Yale, I guess ... --- On Wed, 11/16/11, Anthony Robinson wrote: From: Anthony Robinson Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Vendler and Dove To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Wednesday, November 16, 2011, 6:46 PM Yeah, me too.?? That's why I was so surprised. Tony On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 3:44 PM, Paul Howell wrote: I agree with Bob here. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 6:30 PM, Anthony Robinson wrote: Bob, You're getting soft in your old age. Not a bit of snark in this thoughtful post. Huh. Tony On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 12:53 PM, bob grumman wrote: I got hold of a copy of Vendler?s review and have now read it.? So far I just have random impressions of it.? One is that Vendler is not nearly as cruel as some posts make her seem.? Certainly she gives much more than just her side on many issues.? For instance, she merely suggests the value of a more exclusive anthology, but gives reasons for other kinds.? She even voices my belief that we already can find canonized works, so don?t need them repeated in an anthology, and I was wrong to take an out-of-context quotation to indicate she herself would rather read an anthology with many more Stevens poems in it and fewer by lessers in it; actually she opined that for a young new-comer to poetry person would enjoy the anthology more if that were the case.? Basically, she uses the anthology as an excuse to correct Dove about Stevens and other poets.? She takes pains to show that Stevens could be a ?tragic poet,? too, not just the aesthete that Dove described him as.? The usual standard nonsense that no work of art is of the highest value unless death is in it. ? Vendler didn?t seem as arrogant as I thought she might be.? But opinionated, that?s for sure.? Doesn?t think much of Dove as an essayist.? But supports the contention with examples of her flaws, and why they are flaws?like an English teacher with a student?s paper.? The worst thing she did in my view was claim a dead passage by Baraka ?turns sentimental, in the manner of E. E. Cummings,? which is crap.? Cummings seems to me too sentimental at times, but his sentimentality was far superior in expression and much different from Baraka?s.? But I?m as sensitive to remarks about Cummings as Vendler is to remarks? about Stevens.? Needless to say, I didn?t change my mind about how narrow Vendler?s taste is. ? Oh, like so many members of an establishment, she sneers at the idea that such a thing exists in the world of poetry.? Thinking about the absurdity of that, I realized that I, believe it or not, am a member of a literary establishment, the visual poetry establishment. A tindy uninfluential establishment, to be sure, but one, nonetheless.? With factions, me fairly high in one, Kenny Goldsmith probably similar high in the other main one.?? With people in both factions, others in neither.? Kind of interesting.? In any case, I think it insane to poo poo the idea of a poetry establishment.? No field exists?unless less than a few years old?that lacks an establishment.?? Which doesn?t mean they are formal or conscious or conspiracies.? They are just there, almost always with more power than they should have. ? --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Nov 16 20:29:43 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 20:29:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" ofCodedRacism - Pardon my ire! In-Reply-To: References: <8CE721A669E6E28-630-9AA8C@webmail-m163.sysops.aol.com><67CBFCD9-8182-49FD-9240-2454B5783BD4@comcast.net><1321451554. 33004.YahooMailNeo@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <694BE28FBD3040CAA8A263F70B0A2B2F@BobHP> Your friends suggests, maybe asks, an interesting question: what poets are now doing a significantly new kind of work?as visual poetry was in America sixty years ago (although, as with all ?new? kinds of art, there were forerunners). I feel the mathematical poetry I and a few others were doing twenty years ago was reasonably new then (although it went back at least twenty years before that). Various kinds of cyber poetry I?m not up on were new then, too. Alan Sondheim and company. Is there anything as new as this kind of stuff now? Can there be? --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Nov 16 20:39:07 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 20:39:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler and Dove In-Reply-To: <1321489594.13204.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1321489594.13204.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3F4D041E11F9415F8EA58C230C07ADDA@BobHP> Who are some of the members, the leaders, of this establishment? & do these establishment figures determine whether a writer is read or ignored? Bloom must belong to something lofty ... something that yields considerable influence ... that thing called Yale, I guess .. Years ago it was the Harvard/Yale/New Yorker/NY Times Book Review Axis. Then Iowa University was added. Ten years ago, SUNY, Buffalo, became the last member, after being an almost-member for ten or fifteen years. Poetry and American Poetry Review may be part of it, but I think they just take orders from it. No, not literally. They absorb the Proper Direction from the others. I don?t know where the MacArthur Grants people fit in. Other grants organizations are uninfluential, simply copying what the leaders do. I wonder, too, if the New Yorker is still influential. I can?t think of any periodical in particular who has any standing in my own crowd. Big Bridge, I think, is well thought of. A few others like it. . . . --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 20:44:13 2011 From: antrobin at gmail.com (Anthony Robinson) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 17:44:13 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" ofCodedRacism - Pardon my ire! In-Reply-To: <694BE28FBD3040CAA8A263F70B0A2B2F@BobHP> References: <8CE721A669E6E28-630-9AA8C@webmail-m163.sysops.aol.com> <67CBFCD9-8182-49FD-9240-2454B5783BD4@comcast.net> <694BE28FBD3040CAA8A263F70B0A2B2F@BobHP> Message-ID: Bob, I'm not sure what is "new"--I think this may be a slightly different take on the question, "what is happening NOW." Your interpretation seems to presuppose novelty as a criterion for "important" or "current" work. Knowing my friend, I'm pretty sure that's not what he was asking; the suggestion, of course, though, is there whether he intended it or not. I would offer that our own Gabriel Gudding's "Rhode Island Notebook" certainly seems a lot different than 99% of what's being published as "poetry" these days. Does this make it new? Significant? I'm not sure, but it certainly smudges some boundaries. I'm sure it would give Vendler a heart attack. And speaking of Sondheim,a few years ago, I saw his work everywhere. Not so much anymore--though this probably says something more about my habits of poetic consumption these past years than his production. Tony On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 5:29 PM, bob grumman wrote: > Your friends suggests, maybe asks, an interesting question: what poets > are now doing a significantly new kind of work?as visual poetry was in > America sixty years ago (although, as with all ?new? kinds of art, there > were forerunners). I feel the mathematical poetry I and a few others were > doing twenty years ago was reasonably new then (although it went back at > least twenty years before that). Various kinds of cyber poetry I?m not up > on were new then, too. Alan Sondheim and company. Is there anything as > new as this kind of stuff now? Can there be? > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 20:56:19 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 19:56:19 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL"ofCodedRacism In-Reply-To: <1321478260.12008.YahooMailNeo@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <5f230.3674677b.3bf54ac7@cs.com> <6B0025F47DD345209E906FC33401BE1A@BobHP> <1321478260.12008.YahooMailNeo@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > Gabe -- Consider the source before prolonged engagement. > Amy, well-noted and will do. You're doing fine on your own anyway. :) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Wed Nov 16 21:02:32 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 20:02:32 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" ofCodedRacism - Pardon my ire! In-Reply-To: References: <8CE721A669E6E28-630-9AA8C@webmail-m163.sysops.aol.com> <67CBFCD9-8182-49FD-9240-2454B5783BD4@comcast.net> <694BE28FBD3040CAA8A263F70B0A2B2F@BobHP> Message-ID: <4EC46B38.7030800@louisiana.edu> I've always felt all good poetry was new--even old good poetry. (And I realize that in this my logic is circular, if not just plain square.) In any case, I'm thinking these days that Flarf (which certainly has its antecedents in chance operations per Cage and Maclow, for instance) at least poses new challenges for making, for reading/hearing, and for teaching. That's not to say that I'm in love with it, but it's at least worth bringing up. Jerry On 11/16/2011 7:44 PM, Anthony Robinson wrote: > Bob, > > I'm not sure what is "new"--I think this may be a slightly different > take on the question, "what is happening NOW." Your interpretation > seems to presuppose novelty as a criterion for "important" or > "current" work. Knowing my friend, I'm pretty sure that's not what > he was asking; the suggestion, of course, though, is there whether he > intended it or not. > > I would offer that our own Gabriel Gudding's "Rhode Island Notebook" > certainly seems a lot different than 99% of what's being published as > "poetry" these days. Does this make it new? Significant? I'm not > sure, but it certainly smudges some boundaries. I'm sure it would give > Vendler a heart attack. And speaking of Sondheim,a few years ago, I > saw his work everywhere. Not so much anymore--though this probably > says something more about my habits of poetic consumption these past > years than his production. > > Tony > > > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 5:29 PM, bob grumman > wrote: > > Your friends suggests, maybe asks, an interesting question: what > poets are now doing a significantly new kind of work---as visual > poetry was in America sixty years ago (although, as with all "new" > kinds of art, there were forerunners). I feel the mathematical > poetry I and a few others were doing twenty years ago was > reasonably new then (although it went back at least twenty years > before that). Various kinds of cyber poetry I'm not up on were > new then, too. Alan Sondheim and company. Is there anything as > new as this kind of stuff now? Can there be? > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Jerry McGuire Dept. of English University of Louisiana at Lafayette Lafayette LA 70506 jlm8047 at louisiana.edu 337-482-5478 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Nov 16 21:13:09 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 21:13:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL"ofCodedRacism - Pardon my ire! In-Reply-To: References: <8CE721A669E6E28-630-9AA8C@webmail-m163.sysops.aol.com><67CBFCD9-8182-49FD-9240-2454B5783BD4@comcast.net><69 4BE28FBD3040CAA8A263F70B0A2B2F@BobHP> Message-ID: From: Anthony Robinson Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 8:44 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL"ofCodedRacism - Pardon my ire! Bob, I'm not sure what is "new"--I think this may be a slightly different take on the question, "what is happening NOW." Right?it was just the question that occurred to me after reading your friend?s. I?ll have to look into Gabe?s RI Network. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Nov 16 21:24:33 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 21:24:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL"ofCodedRacism - Pardon my ire! In-Reply-To: <4EC46B38.7030800@louisiana.edu> References: <8CE721A669E6E28-630-9AA8C@webmail-m163.sysops.aol.com><67CBFCD9-8182-49FD-9240-2454B5783BD4@comcast.net><69 4BE28FBD3040CAA8A263F70B0A2B2F@BobHP> <4EC46B38.7030800@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <124092D42DDD4323A38B09C7DC901507@BobHP> From: Jerry McGuire Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 9:02 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL"ofCodedRacism - Pardon my ire! I've always felt all good poetry was new--even old good poetry. (And I realize that in this my logic is circular, if not just plain square.) Nah, it?s nullinguistic?an attempt to retire the word, ?new,? as meaningful. Check with Hal about that. He?ll fill you in out how do do a really good job at it?with any word whatever. In any case, I'm thinking these days that Flarf (which certainly has its antecedents in chance operations per Cage and Maclow, for instance) at least poses new challenges for making, for reading/hearing, and for teaching. That's not to say that I'm in love with it, but it's at least worth bringing up. I?m no expert in it, but it doesn?t seem to be doing anything new to me. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Nov 16 21:56:55 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 21:56:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler and Dove In-Reply-To: References: <5f230.3674677b.3bf54ac7@cs.com><6B0025F47DD345209E906FC33401BE1A@BobHP><12A9DE31433644D39F079B18A55B7284@BobHP> Message-ID: <8CE72EBB30302FB-1658-C8DB4@webmail-d134.sysops.aol.com> I don't know if positive reinforcement can really save/redeem him (Bob) at this late date, but it was a thoughtful and considered post. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Anthony Robinson To: NewPoetry List Sent: Wed, Nov 16, 2011 1:46 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Vendler and Dove Yeah, me too. That's why I was so surprised. Tony On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 3:44 PM, Paul Howell wrote: I agree with Bob here. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 6:30 PM, Anthony Robinson wrote: Bob, You're getting soft in your old age. Not a bit of snark in this thoughtful post. Huh. Tony On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 12:53 PM, bob grumman wrote: I got hold of a copy of Vendler?s review and have now read it. So far I just have random impressions of it. One is that Vendler is not nearly as cruel as some posts make her seem. Certainly she gives much more than just her side on many issues. For instance, she merely suggests the value of a more exclusive anthology, but gives reasons for other kinds. She even voices my belief that we already can find canonized works, so don?t need them repeated in an anthology, and I was wrong to take an out-of-context quotation to indicate she herself would rather read an anthology with many more Stevens poems in it and fewer by lessers in it; actually she opined that for a young new-comer to poetry person would enjoy the anthology more if that were the case. Basically, she uses the anthology as an excuse to correct Dove about Stevens and other poets. She takes pains to show that Stevens could be a ?tragic poet,? too, not just the aesthete that Dove described him as. The usual standard nonsense that no work of art is of the highest value unless death is in it. Vendler didn?t seem as arrogant as I thought she might be. But opinionated, that?s for sure. Doesn?t think much of Dove as an essayist. But supports the contention with examples of her flaws, and why they are flaws?like an English teacher with a student?s paper. The worst thing she did in my view was claim a dead passage by Baraka ?turns sentimental, in the manner of E. E. Cummings,? which is crap. Cummings seems to me too sentimental at times, but his sentimentality was far superior in expression and much different from Baraka?s. But I?m as sensitive to remarks about Cummings as Vendler is to remarks about Stevens. Needless to say, I didn?t change my mind about how narrow Vendler?s taste is. Oh, like so many members of an establishment, she sneers at the idea that such a thing exists in the world of poetry. Thinking about the absurdity of that, I realized that I, believe it or not, am a member of a literary establishment, the visual poetry establishment. A tindy uninfluential establishment, to be sure, but one, nonetheless. With factions, me fairly high in one, Kenny Goldsmith probably similar high in the other main one. With people in both factions, others in neither. Kind of interesting. In any case, I think it insane to poo poo the idea of a poetry establishment. No field exists?unless less than a few years old?that lacks an establishment. Which doesn?t mean they are formal or conscious or conspiracies. They are just there, almost always with more power than they should have. --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Wed Nov 16 22:09:59 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 03:09:59 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler and Dove In-Reply-To: <8CE72EBB30302FB-1658-C8DB4@webmail-d134.sysops.aol.com> References: <5f230.3674677b.3bf54ac7@cs.com><6B0025F47DD345209E906FC33401BE1A@BobHP><12A9DE31433644D39F079B18A55B7284@BobHP>, , <8CE72EBB30302FB-1658-C8DB4@webmail-d134.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I found myself thinking exactly that--Bob, we all agree! Even me who did not like Vendler's article--I have to admit you were judicious and well-considered here. I like especially "almost always with more power than they should have." To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu From: jforjames at aol.com Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 21:56:55 -0500 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Vendler and Dove I don't know if positive reinforcement can really save/redeem him (Bob) at this late date, but it was a thoughtful and considered post. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Anthony Robinson To: NewPoetry List Sent: Wed, Nov 16, 2011 1:46 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Vendler and Dove Yeah, me too. That's why I was so surprised. Tony On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 3:44 PM, Paul Howell wrote: I agree with Bob here. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 6:30 PM, Anthony Robinson wrote: Bob, You're getting soft in your old age. Not a bit of snark in this thoughtful post. Huh. Tony On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 12:53 PM, bob grumman wrote: I got hold of a copy of Vendler?s review and have now read it. So far I just have random impressions of it. One is that Vendler is not nearly as cruel as some posts make her seem. Certainly she gives much more than just her side on many issues. For instance, she merely suggests the value of a more exclusive anthology, but gives reasons for other kinds. She even voices my belief that we already can find canonized works, so don?t need them repeated in an anthology, and I was wrong to take an out-of-context quotation to indicate she herself would rather read an anthology with many more Stevens poems in it and fewer by lessers in it; actually she opined that for a young new-comer to poetry person would enjoy the anthology more if that were the case. Basically, she uses the anthology as an excuse to correct Dove about Stevens and other poets. She takes pains to show that Stevens could be a ?tragic poet,? too, not just the aesthete that Dove described him as. The usual standard nonsense that no work of art is of the highest value unless death is in it. Vendler didn?t seem as arrogant as I thought she might be. But opinionated, that?s for sure. Doesn?t think much of Dove as an essayist. But supports the contention with examples of her flaws, and why they are flaws?like an English teacher with a student?s paper. The worst thing she did in my view was claim a dead passage by Baraka ?turns sentimental, in the manner of E. E. Cummings,? which is crap. Cummings seems to me too sentimental at times, but his sentimentality was far superior in expression and much different from Baraka?s. But I?m as sensitive to remarks about Cummings as Vendler is to remarks about Stevens. Needless to say, I didn?t change my mind about how narrow Vendler?s taste is. Oh, like so many members of an establishment, she sneers at the idea that such a thing exists in the world of poetry. Thinking about the absurdity of that, I realized that I, believe it or not, am a member of a literary establishment, the visual poetry establishment. A tindy uninfluential establishment, to be sure, but one, nonetheless. With factions, me fairly high in one, Kenny Goldsmith probably similar high in the other main one. With people in both factions, others in neither. Kind of interesting. In any case, I think it insane to poo poo the idea of a poetry establishment. No field exists?unless less than a few years old?that lacks an establishment. Which doesn?t mean they are formal or conscious or conspiracies. They are just there, almost always with more power than they should have. --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tony at starve.org Thu Nov 17 00:22:33 2011 From: tony at starve.org (Tony Trigilio) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 23:22:33 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Southern California readings this weekend Message-ID: <4EC49A19.8050506@starve.org> Hi everyone-- I'll be reading from Historic Diary in Los Angeles (Nov. 18) and San Diego (Nov. 19). More info below. Please spread the word -- thanks! Best, Tony _______________________________________ Los Angeles: Poetic Research Bureau http://www.poeticresearch.com/ 951 Chung King Rd. Los Angeles, CA Friday, November 18 (7:00 p.m.) San Diego: D.G. Wills Books http://www.dgwillsbooks.com/ 7461 Girard Ave. La Jolla, CA 92037 Saturday, November 19 (7:00 p.m.) http://www.blazevox.org/index.php/Shop/Poetry/historic-diary-by-tony-trigilio-196/ http://www.spdbooks.org/Producte/9781609640125/historic-diary.aspx?rf=1 http://www.amazon.com/Historic-Diary-Tony-Trigilio/dp/1609640128/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1293910614&sr=8-1 "Tony Trigilio's Historic Diary (named after Lee Harvey Oswald's account of his time in the Soviet Union) excavates the nightmarish record of the first Kennedy assassination, its auguries and aftermath, with a blue fury and an obsessive zeal that border on the Talmudic. What he finds there goes beyond chilling to a pure-product-of-America craziness that makes me tremble for my country. 'I am waiting // for someone to / ride me, the / locomotive of history,' Trigilio writes, and his ticket beyond the grave takes us, willy-nilly, on this scarifying, brilliant, and disturbing ride" (Rachel Loden) "'Hegel makes no sense when everyone is looking at you,'" confides the protagonist of Tony Trigilio's Historic Diary, and he's speaking from experience. In this extraordinary work of imaginative reconstruction, Trigilio assembles a postmodernist Warren Commission Report from archival research, obituaries, interviews, and historical broadcasts surrounding the assassination of John F. Kennedy, only to discover, in the chaos of evidence, rumor, and falsehood, that no dialectical method can offer his speaker an escape from the prison house of paranoia. By composing what Ezra Pound would have called 'a poem including history' from this harrowing litany of Cold War casualties, however, he offers his reader the stark consolation of an elegy for the truth itself: 'This is the story of what never happened, written ahead of time'" (Srikanth Reddy) "Richly varied and deeply brave, Historic Diary is both a page-turner that takes you into remote corners of the Kennedy assassination controversy, and a bold postmodernist collage of poetic styles, voices, and forms. This fine book will keep you rereading and reworking the fragments the poet offers until you are left with not only an oblique but fascinating portrait of Lee Harvey Oswald and the times in which he lived, but also a challenging poetic exploration of the nature of history itself" (Martha Collins) From elemenope_productions at hotmail.com Thu Nov 17 02:06:15 2011 From: elemenope_productions at hotmail.com (R Dillon) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 07:06:15 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL"ofCodedRacism In-Reply-To: <6B0025F47DD345209E906FC33401BE1A@BobHP> References: <5f230.3674677b.3bf54ac7@cs.com>, , <6B0025F47DD345209E906FC33401BE1A@BobHP> Message-ID: That's right, Bob. When they can't beat you, they call you a racist. White Liberal Women of a certain ersatz Ivy League ilk - - experts on racism, yeah, experts on slander, libel, calumny, the Gloria Allreds of poetry. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From antrobin at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 02:29:37 2011 From: antrobin at gmail.com (Anthony Robinson) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2011 23:29:37 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL"ofCodedRacism In-Reply-To: References: <5f230.3674677b.3bf54ac7@cs.com> <6B0025F47DD345209E906FC33401BE1A@BobHP> Message-ID: Dillon must be real. You can't make this shit up. Oh, well, yeah you can. In that case, please try harder, somebody. I've only been resubscribed for a week or two and it's already REALLY boring. Off to have gay sex with some communist liberals, Tony On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 11:06 PM, R Dillon < elemenope_productions at hotmail.com> wrote: > That's right, Bob. When they can't beat you, they call you a racist. > White Liberal Women of a certain ersatz Ivy League ilk - - experts on > racism, yeah, experts on slander, libel, calumny, the Gloria Allreds of > poetry. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Nov 17 06:08:27 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 06:08:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler and Dove In-Reply-To: References: <5f230.3674677b.3bf54ac7@cs.com><6B0025F47DD345209E906FC33401BE1A@BobHP><12A9DE31433644D39F079B18A55B7284@Bo bHP>, , <8CE72EBB30302FB-1658-C8DB4@webmail-d134.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: From: sheila black Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2011 10:09 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Vendler and Dove I found myself thinking exactly that--Bob, we all agree! Even me who did not like Vendler's article--I have to admit you were judicious and well-considered here. I like especially "almost always with more power than they should have." Thanks, Sheila and Finnegan. But already I?m back to being mean to people: a post ago I labeled Jerry ?nullinguistic.? I hope he survives the attack. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Nov 17 10:06:20 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 07:06:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] OT: Help Belladonna Collaborative? Performance / Auction -- Donate / Participate [Speaking of 175 poets...] Message-ID: <1321542380.5029.YahooMailNeo@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear Friend, ? Greetings from Belladonna Series! Reformulated in 2010 as the Belladonna* Collaborative, we are a feminist poetry press and reading series based in Brooklyn. To date, we have published the work of over 175 writers and poets, bringing experimental writing to the public?writing that would not have reached its audience without us. ? We are hosting a benefit that will showcase a musical performance by Anne Waldman and Ambrose Bye, live auction by renowned auctioneer Erin Ward with special assistant Amy King, and a dance performance by the A.O. Movement Collective, plus special surprise guests. Currently, we are looking for special one-of-a-kind items to feature during our live auction, and valuable donations and gifts to offer through our silent auction and everyone wins raffle. We are hoping to raise the money to publish the first full-length books of four important writers and a community engagement in feminist poetics and ?material lives.? ? Our event is a live auction, silent auction and multi-genre performance set to take place December 13 at the Hi Art Gallery in Chelsea. Doors open at 6:30pm for the silent auction, and performances begin at 7:30pm. Donations valued at $250+ will be featured in our live auction, while donations of smaller values will be bundled into packages with other items (books, subscriptions, memberships) as part of our silent auction, which will take place throughout the evening. We?ll also have a book raffle in which every ticket wins a prize, ranging from single chapbooks to independent press subscriptions. ? The auction and the benefit will support Belladonna?s 2012 season of books and events, which share a theme of caring for the material realities of poets, viewing a publishing project holistically. We're referring to 2012 as The Year of Material Lives. We plan to host combination readings/dinners with ample time set aside to discuss the economic and social concerns of writers, artists, publishers, and other creators. Moreover, in addition to continuing our commemorative chaplet series, we hope to publish four full-length books of hybrid and experimental work in the coming year including new work by Julie Patton, LaTasha N. Nevada Diggs, Tonya Foster, and R. Erica Doyle. ? At the auction, we are hoping to earn the funds to complete our budget for 2012. This year we?ve been fortunate to be the recipient of funds from both NYSCA and The O Books Fund, but we still have work to do to make our goals for this year a reality! Part of our benefit proceeds will also support honoraria for our wonderful interns. We hope you are able to join us! Tickets are now available on our website, and if you?re unable to attend in person we invite you to purchase a ticket on behalf of a local New York poet. Belladonna* is now a 501(c)3 federally recognized non-profit organization. ? Best wishes to you!??????????? ??????????? ??????????? The Members of the Belladonna Collaborative belladonnaseries at gmail.com Coordinator: Krystal Languell (917) 474-2003 ? Latest + This is a poetry equally committed to language as a tool with social obligations and language as an art material obligated to reveal its own beauty. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 11:46:08 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 17:46:08 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" of CodedRacism In-Reply-To: <4EC41619.9030202@louisiana.edu> References: <5f230.3674677b.3bf54ac7@cs.com> <4EC40268.6070301@louisiana.edu> <4EC41619.9030202@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: Let me show that I have read up to here... You do not need an anthology because you are an authority and you can choose. The problem with anthologies, especially if well published, resides in the fact that many people take them for granted. Thus students, or people who belong to other disciplines, refer to them without a pinch of salt. It is quite tricky. That is why they usually trigger so much criticism. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:59 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: > ** > I don't know how it happened, but a chunk of my last post got chopped out > so that part of it wound up meaning very nearly the opposite of what I had > originally written. I can't reconstruct it perfectly now, but this would be > close: where it reads "my reading--my sense of what is worth reading--is > basically motivated by curiositywhose primary expression is the imposition > of arbitrary limits" it should read, more or less, "my reading--my sense > of what is worth reading--is basically motivated by curiosity, not by > professional authority or a solipsistic certainty about "worth"--or, worse, > by an investment in some system of power whose primary expression is the > imposition of arbitrary limits." > > I'm sure that's not precisely what I wrote before, but it catches the > spirit, I think. > > Jerry > > > On 11/16/2011 12:35 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: > > There's another point floating here--the weird claim (Amy mentioned it) > that "No century in the evolution of poetry in English ever had 175 poets > worth reading." What kind of exhaustion is speaking here? "Worth reading" > is what it's all about--what's worth reading to me, worth reading to my > students, worth reading to Bob Grumman, etc. My own sense is that no one > who reads a poem or two (thousand) that's not worth reading is reading > enough poetry--certainly not enough to snatch a podium and start lecturing. > As a teacher, not to mention just as a human being, I know that there are > lots of poems that are perversely written, ideologically nasty, and > intellectually superficial that have been very much worth _my_ reading at > one time or another, because (like a scientist who may learn something new > by catching a glimpse of a bug he's never seen before) my reading--my sense > of what is worth reading--is basically motivated by curiositywhose primary > expression is the imposition of arbitrary limits. I'm not trying to answer > or critique Vendler's comments about Dove's anthology here, or the sense > that what's "worth reading" is a decision entrusted to Dove by a corporate > cabal at Penguin--that what's "worth reading," in other words, is > contextual in ways neither Dove nor Vendler wants to acknowledge. I'm just > saying that that "175" points to a chasm between Vendler's way of thinking > about this art and any responsible way of thinking about it I can imagine. > > Jerry > > On 11/16/2011 11:42 AM, gabriel gudding wrote: > > Yay to Amy's take-down. Vendler's is a real dog-whistle of a review. > > Hard to believe V's really decrying the lack of more representation for > Stevens or Merrill. But the history of poetry's nothing if not a chronicle > of doozies, lies, privilege, and violence. Ick. > > And good for Dove. > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 11:20 AM, wrote: > >> In a message dated 11/16/2011 11:15:01 AM Central Standard Time, >> halvard at gmail.com writes: >> >> >> I say tear down those schools of poetry as well. >> >> >> >> Serving the tri-state area. >> >> >> Hal >> >> >> >> >> Wasn't the Department of Poetry the third one Rick Perry couldn't >> remember? >> >> Sam >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- > ________________________________________________________ > > Jerry McGuire > English Department Box 44691 > University of Louisiana at Lafayette > Lafayette LA 70504-4691337-482-5478 > Creative Writing Website:http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html > ______________________________________________________ > > > > -- > ________________________________________________________ > > Jerry McGuire > English Department Box 44691 > University of Louisiana at Lafayette > Lafayette LA 70504-4691337-482-5478 > Creative Writing Website:http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html > ______________________________________________________ > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gabrielgudding at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 16:33:13 2011 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com (gabriel gudding) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 15:33:13 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] continuation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sheila - PS, and I'm sorry for my tone in saying "he was wrong" in re Foucault. I get a little certitude-y when it comes to that way of viewing things. Urgh. Anyway, I was reading Jane Bennett today (_Vibrant Matter: Toward a Political Ecology of Things_) and ran across some stuff in that book that really made me think of what you've been trying to get thru my thick skull. :) And later tonight I'll type some of it out, see if it resonates with you. - g -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Thu Nov 17 19:15:23 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 00:15:23 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] continuation In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: Dear Gabriel: Please don't worry--I must be tough as old boots, but it would take a lot more than saying "Foucault was wrong" to make me feel insulted by a tone. And now I'm curious exactly what you think I have been trying to get through your thick skull, which I wouldn't call thick, more incredibly energetic. I read the chapter on Shklovsky--am I spelling that right?; it brought back to me so many things I had not thought of in a while, which was a curious kind of pleasure--maybe a bit like the feeling more of the thingness (stoneness) or the mutations of time--the sense of being more in time, one way or the other that the theory of art as somatics ("art is connected in some complex way with the body") touches on or suggests. I liked especially the part where Robinson sort of flips Shklovsky's formulation of the theory of alienation around the Bakhtinian--ohh, now I really get to feel like a pretentious intellectual-- body-in-pain; the problem of numbness flowing in a sense in all directions; that makes sense to me. It does seem interesting, though, that this need, this concern with the numbing (one way or the other--nostaligiac/analgesiac as it were) seems so peculiarly tied to modernity. I was thinking that the part of what you wrote last time that I most want to keep thinking about is: It's funny: these days I'm far less paranoid about sociology, history, ethics, moral philosophy and neuroscience than I am about art, poetry, creative writing, most literary scholarship, literary life and reviews. I see VERY little liberatory power in most poetry and art. And sometimes the most politically quietistic stuff I see is the stuff that's purporting to be "experimental," "transgressive," and innovative. When it's ethically vibrant *and* aesthetically innovative, *then* we have a winning combination. But most of it, meh, I'd rather read Jane Goodall and Stephen Jay Gould. :) because, mostly, I agree with you there--and the problem--at least for me, quite simply--does seem one of material and capital--or maybe that melancholia of Nihilism where one can't help one's desire to create and to wish one's creations to have meaning, despite better sense and cooler heads; certainly one does not want them to have meaning simply within or as "material" or "capital," which is, oddly, where the notion of collective appeals to me most. John Berryman--I don't know if you like him at all; he is certainly not generally considered much an avant-garde figure, but who could not love some of his eccentricity of diction, not to mention sheer plagency?--that he could not write without pronouns. You, me, I, they. Lately--maybe because of reading that Julianna Sphar book The Transformation (if you read, you will see why)--I've been a little obsessed with pronouns, what they can do or not, or what changing them would do (Yes--I know--shades of Rimbaud, "Car Je est une autre," or friend Novalis: "I am not I/I am you."). And yet I am not quite convinced that the desire to feel more alive is necessarily entirely one which resolves easily into an ethical picture--for if we need to see how "deeply all of us are actually connected," we need also perhaps to see how that is at once marvellous and monstrous; it also strikes me that part of the function of art--this might seem off-topic, but it is the end of the work day here, and I get tired--is precisely to give us the space to dream--the space of being without clear intention, of letting forment and it is in this that art achieves the various somatic and psychic phenomenon both Shklovsky and Bahktin comment on--the estrangement that paradoxically allows one to feel and even stretch the sensation of seeing things or being in a time. Stendahl--I love Stendahl--who I was reminded of when you said "a long dry spell in the middle...like life..." has a passage in Memoir of an Egotist, in which he asserts that the novelist must include boring passages, much as any carriage journey contains stretches where there is no view of special interest. He says these passages are vital precisely because they allow the reader a space in which to daydream or to enter the state of ?reverie? which is so essential to the life of a novel?the way attention becomes fixed but also distracted by the surfaces of things, their obduracy, their essential silence--reverie for him, the ideal to which the novel strives, a state associated less with knowledge than with pleasure: As for the new light which a novel is supposed to throw on human nature . . . well, I am very conscious of my original views and like to come upon the marginal notes which I wrote about them at a previous reading. But this sort of pleasure only holds good for the novel's function of furthering my knowledge of man, and not for its chief function of inducing reverie [la r?verie qui est le vrai plaisir du roman]. This reverie cannot be imprisoned in a marginal note. To do so is to kill it for the present, since one begins to analyse pleasure philosophically. It is also to kill it for the future, because nothing paralyzes the imagination like an appeal to memory. in other words, this pleasure?a pleasure associated from the first with unmooring, with destruction?is one of free motion, an overturning of the linear laws of narrative or cause and effect, a metaphorical, even metonymic awareness of momentariness, in which the attention is both dispersed and concentrated and the surface of the world is read or organized around the life of an idea or ideal. And yet the novel induces this by a process much like what Sklovosky describes--in this case a kind of concentration of attention that forges a strange kind of alienation. Here is Stendahl on love--his famous (wacky more than a little) theory of crystallization: At the salt mines of Salzburg, they throw a leafless wintry bough into one of the abandoned workings. Two or three months later they haul it out covered with a shining deposit of crystals. The smallest twig, no bigger than a tom-tit's claw, is studded with a galaxy of scintillating diamonds. The original branch is no longer recognizable. What I have called crystallization is a mental process which draws from everything that happens new proofs of the perfection of the loved one.... A metaphor, simple yet effective, of how the process of love turns the "other" into something of "sublime" beauty, but also, if the metaphor is pressed, to an unnatural coldness, the pure fixity of crystal. Much lthe way?in some senses?art makes something strange, but also more striking, more affecting of "the things of life". Nicholas Dame (who wrote the essay from which much of this taken) says of Stendahl?s theory: ?It is an account of love as a perceptual process--not solely perception of the loved one, but of all else; a kind of painfully winnowed attention that takes all data ("everything that happens") and concentrates it into one overriding concern. Although it is an elaborative process, taking a twig and making it unforeseeably beautiful, it is more pertinently a process of absorption and concentration that condenses, or "forgets," most actual experience....a state of concentration so intense that the single, condensed object upon which it locks its gaze does not represent the missing concept or loved one so much as replace it entirely---a series of forgettings, a substitution ?with the force of amnesia" This is a story of art and or beauty that is fraught with notions of alienation and solitude, loss, but one that is compelling--perhaps?-- because it encapsulates notions of estrangement and loss--created or contained through conscious attention in a way that seems to also and simultaneously create a potential of recovery. Well, I'm not sure about that last part, but one thing I tend to think--when I do think about art--is that, the ethics of the society or the larger context aside--if art is to--as in your formulation of Neitzche--possess the noble selfishness of generosity--it must extend or allow the space of dream or reverie in order to be commensurate with the real and unceasing infinitude of loss. (Or at least to transcend the general Nihilism which is not revolutionary....) Gosh, I feel like this e-mail has ended up traveling in some funny directions. Perhaps someone else will be able to figure out what I'm trying to say--and/or say it better! Best, sheila Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 15:33:13 -0600 From: gabrielgudding at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] continuation Sheila - PS, and I'm sorry for my tone in saying "he was wrong" in re Foucault. I get a little certitude-y when it comes to that way of viewing things. Urgh. Anyway, I was reading Jane Bennett today (_Vibrant Matter: Toward a Political Ecology of Things_) and ran across some stuff in that book that really made me think of what you've been trying to get thru my thick skull. :) And later tonight I'll type some of it out, see if it resonates with you. - g _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Nov 17 20:44:34 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 20:44:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Nikky Finney wins National Book Award for poetry Message-ID: <8CE73AAC20933AE-1E54-DBCC1@webmail-d164.sysops.aol.com> http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/books/ct-books-national-book-awards,0,6235660.story The 62nd National Book Awards were hosted by actor John Lithgow, who published a memoir in September, and included an appearance by poet Elizabeth Alexander, who read at President Obama's inauguration in 2009. Poet John Ashbery, 84, was presented the foundation's lifetime achievement award, the Medal for Distinguished Contribution to American Letters. In his acceptance speech, he noted that since he began writing, "difficult poetry" had lost traction in the literary world. Finney's acceptance speech for her award combined poetry with a gorgeously stated discussion of race, writing and reading. "That was the best acceptance speech for anything that I've ever heard in my life," Lithgow said, after the applause finally died down. Finney lives and teaches in Lexington, Ky. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Nov 17 22:12:19 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 22:12:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Five Powers Poetry Seminars Message-ID: <8CE73B704053FA1-1DBC-8349A@webmail-m031.sysops.aol.com> http://us2.forward-to-friend.com/forward/show?u=5fcdc4e88a25200d6b7cb5170&id=3de4d97779 My idea has been to develop the Five Powers Poetry Seminars, an intensive short-term course designed to teach, guide, and support high school and college teachers in the art of teaching poetry in the classroom. My experiment is represented by a new Five Powers of Poetry website: check it out And two seminars have already been scheduled for next summer. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Nov 17 22:55:34 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 22:55:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" of CodedRacism In-Reply-To: References: <5f230.3674677b.3bf54ac7@cs.com><4EC40268.6070301@louisiana.edu> <4EC41619.9030202@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <8CE73BD0F322090-1DBC-83A7F@webmail-m031.sysops.aol.com> The 175 figure is interesting if one thinks about population growth. In 1900 the US population was approximately 76M, but by 2000 we were at roughly 276M, or about 3.5 x the population of 1900. So if a 19thC poetry anthology, coming out shortly after 1900, featured 50 poets, then, all things being equal, an anthology released shortly after 2000 would need 175 (3.5 x 50) poets in its table of contents, otherwise our 'worthy poet per capita' standard of living would have declined. Finnegan On 11/16/2011 12:35 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: There's another point floating here--the weird claim (Amy mentioned it) that "No century in the evolution of poetry in English ever had 175 poets worth reading." What kind of exhaustion is speaking here? "Worth reading" is what it's all about--what's worth reading to me, worth reading to my students, worth reading to Bob Grumman, etc. My own sense is that no one who reads a poem or two (thousand) that's not worth reading is reading enough poetry--certainly not enough to snatch a podium and start lecturing. As a teacher, not to mention just as a human being, I know that there are lots of poems that are perversely written, ideologically nasty, and intellectually superficial that have been very much worth _my_ reading at one time or another, because (like a scientist who may learn something new by catching a glimpse of a bug he's never seen before) my reading--my sense of what is worth reading--is basically motivated by curiositywhose primary expression is the imposition of arbitrary limits. I'm not trying to answer or critique Vendler's comments about Dove's anthology here, or the sense that what's "worth reading" is a decision entrusted to Dove by a corporate cabal at Penguin--that what's "worth reading," in other words, is contextual in ways neither Dove nor Vendler wants to acknowledge. I'm just saying that that "175" points to a chasm between Vendler's way of thinking about this art and any responsible way of thinking about it I can imagine. Jerry On 11/16/2011 11:42 AM, gabriel gudding wrote: Yay to Amy's take-down. Vendler's is a real dog-whistle of a review. Hard to believe V's really decrying the lack of more representation for Stevens or Merrill. But the history of poetry's nothing if not a chronicle of doozies, lies, privilege, and violence. Ick. And good for Dove. On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 11:20 AM, wrote: In a message dated 11/16/2011 11:15:01 AM Central Standard Time, halvard at gmail.com writes: I say tear down those schools of poetry as well. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Wasn't the Department of Poetry the third one Rick Perry couldn't remember? Sam _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- ________________________________________________________ Jerry McGuire English Department Box 44691 University of Louisiana at Lafayette Lafayette LA 70504-4691 337-482-5478 Creative Writing Website: http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html ______________________________________________________ -- ________________________________________________________ Jerry McGuire English Department Box 44691 University of Louisiana at Lafayette Lafayette LA 70504-4691 337-482-5478 Creative Writing Website: http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html ______________________________________________________ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 00:02:35 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 06:02:35 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" of CodedRacism In-Reply-To: <8CE73BD0F322090-1DBC-83A7F@webmail-m031.sysops.aol.com> References: <5f230.3674677b.3bf54ac7@cs.com> <4EC40268.6070301@louisiana.edu> <4EC41619.9030202@louisiana.edu> <8CE73BD0F322090-1DBC-83A7F@webmail-m031.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: It is so reassuring to know that such a perfection exists. Thank you, James. On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 4:55 AM, wrote: > The 175 figure is interesting if one thinks about population growth. In > 1900 the US population was approximately 76M, but by 2000 we were at > roughly 276M, or about 3.5 x the population of 1900. So if a 19thC poetry > anthology, coming out shortly after 1900, featured 50 poets, then, all > things being equal, an anthology released shortly after 2000 would need 175 > (3.5 x 50) poets in its table of contents, otherwise our 'worthy poet per > capita' standard of living would have declined. > > Finnegan > > >> >> On 11/16/2011 12:35 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: >> >> There's another point floating here--the weird claim (Amy mentioned it) >> that "No century in the evolution of poetry in English ever had 175 poets >> worth reading." What kind of exhaustion is speaking here? "Worth reading" >> is what it's all about--what's worth reading to me, worth reading to my >> students, worth reading to Bob Grumman, etc. My own sense is that no one >> who reads a poem or two (thousand) that's not worth reading is reading >> enough poetry--certainly not enough to snatch a podium and start lecturing. >> As a teacher, not to mention just as a human being, I know that there are >> lots of poems that are perversely written, ideologically nasty, and >> intellectually superficial that have been very much worth _my_ reading at >> one time or another, because (like a scientist who may learn something new >> by catching a glimpse of a bug he's never seen before) my reading--my sense >> of what is worth reading--is basically motivated by curiositywhose primary >> expression is the imposition of arbitrary limits. I'm not trying to answer >> or critique Vendler's comments about Dove's anthology here, or the sense >> that what's "worth reading" is a decision entrusted to Dove by a corporate >> cabal at Penguin--that what's "worth reading," in other words, is >> contextual in ways neither Dove nor Vendler wants to acknowledge. I'm just >> saying that that "175" points to a chasm between Vendler's way of thinking >> about this art and any responsible way of thinking about it I can imagine. >> >> Jerry >> >> On 11/16/2011 11:42 AM, gabriel gudding wrote: >> >> Yay to Amy's take-down. Vendler's is a real dog-whistle of a review. >> >> Hard to believe V's really decrying the lack of more representation for >> Stevens or Merrill. But the history of poetry's nothing if not a chronicle >> of doozies, lies, privilege, and violence. Ick. >> >> And good for Dove. >> >> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 11:20 AM, wrote: >> >>> In a message dated 11/16/2011 11:15:01 AM Central Standard Time, >>> halvard at gmail.com writes: >>> >>> >>> I say tear down those schools of poetry as well. >>> >>> >>> >>> Serving the tri-state area. >>> >>> >>> Hal >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Wasn't the Department of Poetry the third one Rick Perry couldn't >>> remember? >>> >>> Sam >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> -- >> ________________________________________________________ >> >> Jerry McGuire >> English Department Box 44691 >> University of Louisiana at Lafayette >> Lafayette LA 70504-4691337-482-5478 >> Creative Writing Website:http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html >> ______________________________________________________ >> >> >> >> -- >> ________________________________________________________ >> >> Jerry McGuire >> English Department Box 44691 >> University of Louisiana at Lafayette >> Lafayette LA 70504-4691337-482-5478 >> Creative Writing Website:http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html >> ______________________________________________________ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Fri Nov 18 00:42:41 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 21:42:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Nikky Finney wins National Book Award for poetry Message-ID: <1321594961.46838.androidMobile@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I'd like to hear (or read) that speech - is it online anywhere? Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Fri Nov 18 00:42:49 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2011 21:42:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" of CodedRacism Message-ID: <1321594969.63292.androidMobile@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Ah, logic.? This makes sense.? Maybe the master's tools can dismantle... Sent from Yahoo! Mail on Android -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Nov 18 01:35:22 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 01:35:22 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" of CodedRacism Message-ID: <4449977.1321598123342.JavaMail.root@wamui-junio.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Nov 18 06:30:41 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 06:30:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler and Dove In-Reply-To: <1321594969.63292.androidMobile@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <1321594969.63292.androidMobile@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0083BF33B8344BBEA87A504D50DC10E1@BobHP> The 175 figure is interesting if one thinks about population growth. In 1900 the US population was approximately 76M, but by 2000 we were at roughly 276M, or about 3.5 x the population of 1900. So if a 19thC poetry anthology, coming out shortly after 1900, featured 50 poets, then, all things being equal, an anthology released shortly after 2000 would need 175 (3.5 x 50) poets in its table of contents, otherwise our 'worthy poet per capita' standard of living would have declined. Finnegan More interesting to me is the question of how large a canon, in any field, can a normal human brain deal with? 175 isn?t too many, I don?t suppose, to deal superficially with, but 175?! I think my own canon of poets in English is less than thirty, but there are less than twenty poets in it I feel I?m reasonably on top of. Not that the size of the canon should have anything to do with the size of an anthology of an anthology since the more the merrier seems a legitimate desire for some anthologies. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Nov 18 06:36:09 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 06:36:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler and Dove In-Reply-To: <8CE73B704053FA1-1DBC-8349A@webmail-m031.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE73B704053FA1-1DBC-8349A@webmail-m031.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <2995C5B2703947218B240F2F8736E1D1@BobHP> There?s the additional problem of non-canonical poets, since one will surely be intense about more than a few such. So, is fifty too low a figure for how many poets of any kind a person interested in poetry can make significant room in his brain for? --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Fri Nov 18 08:54:03 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 05:54:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] White House Jam Message-ID: <1321624443.29932.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> #yiv1831484519 body, #yiv1831484519 td, #yiv1831484519 input { font-family:arial;font-size:16px;} #yiv1831484519 #yiv1831484519container { padding:5px 20px;} #yiv1831484519 #yiv1831484519header h2 { font-size:27px;color:#d0d0d0;margin:22px 0 10px;} #yiv1831484519 #yiv1831484519searchform { width:470px;margin:0;} #yiv1831484519 #yiv1831484519searchform input { font-size:18px;border:1px solid #aaa;color:#aaa;} #yiv1831484519 #yiv1831484519searchform input:hover, #yiv1831484519 #yiv1831484519searchform input:focus, #yiv1831484519 #yiv1831484519searchform input:active { border:1px solid #888;color:#000;} #yiv1831484519 #yiv1831484519searchform input.yiv1831484519searchbox { padding:4px;width:300px;} #yiv1831484519 #yiv1831484519searchform input.yiv1831484519searchbutton { padding:3px 10px;color:#000;} #yiv1831484519 #yiv1831484519searchform div.yiv1831484519poweredby { float:right;width:80px;text-align:center;} #yiv1831484519 #yiv1831484519searchform div.yiv1831484519poweredby span { font-size:10px;} #yiv1831484519 #yiv1831484519searchform div.yiv1831484519poweredby img { width:60px;} ... should be good ... Rod Smith, Kenneth Goldsmith ... readings up until Dec 18 ... Readings Poets? Potluck Friday, November 18, 201110:00 pmView event details ? Thursday, August 18, 2011 by The Poetry Project | Category: Calendar, Readings | Tags: Poets' Potluck | Comments (4) TALK SERIES: Poetry After the White House Jam: A Panel Discussion on the nature and Role of the Avant-Garde Monday, November 28, 20118:00 pmView event details ? Friday, August 19, 2011 by The Poetry Project | Category: Calendar, Readings | Tags: Alison Knowles, Kenneth Goldsmith, Rod Smith, Sandra Simonds, Steven Zultanski | Comment Julian T. Brolaski & Elizabeth Willis Wednesday, November 30, 20118:00 pmView event details ? Thursday, August 18, 2011 by The Poetry Project | Category: Calendar, Readings | Tags: Elizabeth Willis, Julian T. Brolaski | Comment Abraham Gomez-Delgado & Action Theory Friday, December 2, 201110:00 pmView event details ? Friday, November 4, 2011 by The Poetry Project | Category: Calendar, Readings | Tags: Abraham Gomez-Delgado | Comment Judah Rubin & Marion Bell Monday, December 5, 20118:00 pmView event details ? Friday, November 4, 2011 by The Poetry Project | Category: Calendar, Readings | Tags: Judah Rubin, Marion Bell | Comment Tom Carey & Jaime Manrique Wednesday, December 7, 20118:00 pmView event details ? Friday, November 4, 2011 by The Poetry Project | Category: Calendar, Readings | Tags: Jaime Manrique, Tom Carey | Comment Shonni Enelow & Steve Reinke Friday, December 9, 201110:00 pmView event details ? Friday, November 4, 2011 by The Poetry Project | Category: Calendar, Readings | Tags: Shonni Enelow, Steve Reinke | Comment Debrah Morkun & Greg Purcell Monday, December 12, 20118:00 pmView event details ? Friday, November 4, 2011 by The Poetry Project | Category: Calendar, Readings | Tags: Debrah Morkun, Greg Purcell | Comment Carolee Schneemann: Reading From Correspondence Course and Screening Of Americana I Ching Apple Pie Wednesday, December 14, 20118:00 pmView event details ? Friday, November 4, 2011 by The Poetry Project | Category: Calendar, Readings | Tags: Carolee Schneemann | Comment Ben Doller & Sandra Doller Monday, December 19, 20118:00 pmView event details ? Friday, November 4, 2011 by The Poetry Project | Category: Calendar, Readings | Tags: Ben Doller, Sandra Doller | Comment Past ReadingsPast WorkshopsAll Past Events -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Nov 18 12:04:05 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 12:04:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation Message-ID: <8CE742B3677BADA-F80-978C4@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> In her 1988 lecture ?Unspeakable Things Unspoken,? Toni Morrison coined a memorable conceit: ?Canon building is empire building. Canon defense is national defense.? In The Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Poetry ($40), former poet laureate Rita Dove takes up the challenge of expanding the canon of American poetry to include those she says have been ?sidelined from the mainstream?s surging currents.? But she does so in a manner that... http://www.thenation.com/article/164325/shelf-life -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Nov 18 16:46:58 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:46:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Five Powers Poetry Seminars In-Reply-To: <8CE73B704053FA1-1DBC-8349A@webmail-m031.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE73B704053FA1-1DBC-8349A@webmail-m031.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <107B608C42EF448B97A59DB12AE32C11@BobHP> Hoagland's Five Powers Poetry Seminars http://us2.forward-to-friend.com/forward/show?u=5fcdc4e88a25200d6b7cb5170&id=3de4d97779 My idea has been to develop the Five Powers Poetry Seminars, an intensive short-term course designed to teach, guide, and support high school and college teachers in the art of teaching poetry in the classroom. My experiment is represented by a new Five Powers of Poetry website: They are image, diction, voice, structure and implication. You have to sign up for his course to learn more, I guess. I think you?d learn more the discussion of what makes an effective poem we had here a few years back than from Hoagland. Anyone know more about his five powers? Or think them worth discussion? I would replace ?voice? with ?emotion.? Unsurprisingly, I would add ?technique,? which I consider the most important ?power.? I will be amazed if he treats any ?structure? not discussed in poetry handbooks sixty or more years ago. ?Implication? sounds vapid to me, and I would want ?freshness? to be discussed, although that could be discussed as part of any or all of the other powers. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Nov 18 18:17:44 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:17:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation In-Reply-To: <8CE742B3677BADA-F80-978C4@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE742B3677BADA-F80-978C4@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CE745F694432F5-21DC-FDD22@webmail-m158.sysops.aol.com> Jeremy Bass: "Lorine Niedecker is left to languish in the obscurity in which she spent most of her life. Thom Gunn, whose pitch-perfect poems of homosexual love and Eros guided the work of many poets included in the anthology, is absent. Robert Penn Warren and John Crowe Ransom, poets whose theories challenged and provoked Randall Jarrell, Robert Lowell and John Berryman, have been lopped off the family tree. And in a volume that includes some of the most accomplished contemporary poets?Robert Pinsky and Frank Bidart, Sharon Olds and Jorie Graham?where are the indispensable poems of Louise Gl?ck and Jean Valentine? Finally, what literary anthology of twentieth-century American verse could be complete without Louis Zukofsky, George Oppen..." Based on the above snip it look like Objectvists took a direct omit hit. No Niedecker, no Zukofsky (though judging from his son's bizarre 'I'm the rights holder and don't you forget it or try to claim fair use' statement online a year or two ago maybe highway robbery regards permission to reprint played a part in the Zuke omission), and no Oppen. Ouch. We've been talking mainly about Dove's corrective measures in terms of diversity, but this is a major miss in terms of 'aesthetic diversity'. I guess my question is: Should one person be charged with assembling a century of poetry? Shouldn' t it be small cadre, let's say three people so as to break ties, and shouldn't they, as a group, first outline the whole century (at risk of sounding like Bob), map the major movements, schools and trends, and decide going into the assembly, "about X pages for Confessionals, about Y pages for Harlem Renaissance, about Z pages for Feminists, etc." until the map is gerrymandered accordingly. Then start to fill in the blanks. -----Original Message----- From: jforjames To: new-poetry Sent: Fri, Nov 18, 2011 7:04 am Subject: Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation In her 1988 lecture ?Unspeakable Things Unspoken,? Toni Morrison coined a memorable conceit: ?Canon building is empire building. Canon defense is national defense.? In The Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Poetry ($40), former poet laureate Rita Dove takes up the challenge of expanding the canon of American poetry to include those she says have been ?sidelined from the mainstream?s surging currents.? But she does so in a manner that... http://www.thenation.com/article/164325/shelf-life -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Fri Nov 18 18:37:51 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 23:37:51 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation In-Reply-To: <8CE745F694432F5-21DC-FDD22@webmail-m158.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE742B3677BADA-F80-978C4@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com>, <8CE745F694432F5-21DC-FDD22@webmail-m158.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I love the cadre idea--it's true, I think it does help to have more than one person responsible; the process then becomes dynamic, educative (I hope that is a word; I couldn't bear to say EDUCATIONAL somehow). And, speaking from personal experiences, three is good number. Oppen--I'll miss. A LOT. & Niedecker and Berryman, too. You can't, of course, please everyone, but some arguing over the contents, I suspect, works like a hint of pepper in the soup-- To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu From: jforjames at aol.com Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:17:44 -0500 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation Jeremy Bass: "Lorine Niedecker is left to languish in the obscurity in which she spent most of her life. Thom Gunn, whose pitch-perfect poems of homosexual love and Eros guided the work of many poets included in the anthology, is absent. Robert Penn Warren and John Crowe Ransom, poets whose theories challenged and provoked Randall Jarrell, Robert Lowell and John Berryman, have been lopped off the family tree. And in a volume that includes some of the most accomplished contemporary poets?Robert Pinsky and Frank Bidart, Sharon Olds and Jorie Graham?where are the indispensable poems of Louise Gl?ck and Jean Valentine? Finally, what literary anthology of twentieth-century American verse could be complete without Louis Zukofsky, George Oppen..." Based on the above snip it look like Objectvists took a direct omit hit. No Niedecker, no Zukofsky (though judging from his son's bizarre 'I'm the rights holder and don't you forget it or try to claim fair use' statement online a year or two ago maybe highway robbery regards permission to reprint played a part in the Zuke omission), and no Oppen. Ouch. We've been talking mainly about Dove's corrective measures in terms of diversity, but this is a major miss in terms of 'aesthetic diversity'. I guess my question is: Should one person be charged with assembling a century of poetry? Shouldn' t it be small cadre, let's say three people so as to break ties, and shouldn't they, as a group, first outline the whole century (at risk of sounding like Bob), map the major movements, schools and trends, and decide going into the assembly, "about X pages for Confessionals, about Y pages for Harlem Renaissance, about Z pages for Feminists, etc." until the map is gerrymandered accordingly. Then start to fill in the blanks. -----Original Message----- From: jforjames To: new-poetry Sent: Fri, Nov 18, 2011 7:04 am Subject: Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation In her 1988 lecture ?Unspeakable Things Unspoken,? Toni Morrison coined a memorable conceit: ?Canon building is empire building. Canon defense is national defense.? In The Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Poetry ($40), former poet laureate Rita Dove takes up the challenge of expanding the canon of American poetry to include those she says have been ?sidelined from the mainstream?s surging currents.? But she does so in a manner that... http://www.thenation.com/article/164325/shelf-life _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Nov 18 18:38:06 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:38:06 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation Message-ID: <29310871.1321659487645.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Fri Nov 18 18:49:16 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 23:49:16 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation In-Reply-To: <29310871.1321659487645.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <29310871.1321659487645.JavaMail.root@wamui-haziran.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: I would love to have some Eigner in there, speaking of diversity. Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:38:06 -0500 From: junction at earthlink.net To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation It doesn't have to take a committee, tho it's a lot easier for two. More than that's usually a mess. What is important is to have a goal n mind. In this case, Penguin surely wants the academic market, because it's the most lucrative. I.e, it's not aimed at the folks on this list. So, it needs to focus on what's needed as a base education from which willing students can go on. With that in mind, it's really not that hard for an editor to choose some work he/she doesn't like because it's needed to fill in the picture. I've done it myself. I should refrain from judging--maybe we all should--until we've read at least the poets we're not familiar with, but it doesn't look good, certainly doesn't look like an anthology I'd use. Which isn't to say that Vendler's a nice person. No Reznikoff either, by the way, no Duncan, Spicer, Stephen Jonas, Wieners, Eigner, Dorn... -----Original Message----- From: jforjames at aol.com Sent: Nov 18, 2011 6:17 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation Jeremy Bass: "Lorine Niedecker is left to languish in the obscurity in which she spent most of her life. Thom Gunn, whose pitch-perfect poems of homosexual love and Eros guided the work of many poets included in the anthology, is absent. Robert Penn Warren and John Crowe Ransom, poets whose theories challenged and provoked Randall Jarrell, Robert Lowell and John Berryman, have been lopped off the family tree. And in a volume that includes some of the most accomplished contemporary poets?Robert Pinsky and Frank Bidart, Sharon Olds and Jorie Graham?where are the indispensable poems of Louise Gl?ck and Jean Valentine? Finally, what literary anthology of twentieth-century American verse could be complete without Louis Zukofsky, George Oppen..." Based on the above snip it look like Objectvists took a direct omit hit. No Niedecker, no Zukofsky (though judging from his son's bizarre 'I'm the rights holder and don't you forget it or try to claim fair use' statement online a year or two ago maybe highway robbery regards permission to reprint played a part in the Zuke omission), and no Oppen. Ouch. We've been talking mainly about Dove's corrective measures in terms of diversity, but this is a major miss in terms of 'aesthetic diversity'. I guess my question is: Should one person be charged with assembling a century of poetry? Shouldn' t it be small cadre, let's say three people so as to break ties, and shouldn't they, as a group, first outline the whole century (at risk of sounding like Bob), map the major movements, schools and trends, and decide going into the assembly, "about X pages for Confessionals, about Y pages for Harlem Renaissance, about Z pages for Feminists, etc." until the map is gerrymandered accordingly. Then start to fill in the blanks. -----Original Message----- From: jforjames To: new-poetry Sent: Fri, Nov 18, 2011 7:04 am Subject: Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation In her 1988 lecture ?Unspeakable Things Unspoken,? Toni Morrison coined a memorable conceit: ?Canon building is empire building. Canon defense is national defense.? In The Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Poetry ($40), former poet laureate Rita Dove takes up the challenge of expanding the canon of American poetry to include those she says have been ?sidelined from the mainstream?s surging currents.? But she does so in a manner that... http://www.thenation.com/article/164325/shelf-life _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tomasocarthaigh at yahoo.com Fri Nov 18 19:28:37 2011 From: tomasocarthaigh at yahoo.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Tom=E1s_=D3_C=E1rthaigh?=) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:28:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Bus Fully Funded Message-ID: <1321662517.74218.YahooMailClassic@web161602.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> http://thepoetrybus.blogspot.com The Poetry Bus appeal on Fundit.ie was succesful, and Peadar O Donoghue wishes to thank all who supported either by funding or assisting the cause by sharing. The third issue of The Poetry Bus should be in print at at stops by the second week of December... Again, thanks to all!!! "a person with a good book is never alone... a writer until they've written one is never at peace" - www.writingsinrhyme.com??::: Add me on Facebook ::: My YouTube Videos? ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 19:40:47 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:40:47 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation In-Reply-To: <8CE745F694432F5-21DC-FDD22@webmail-m158.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE742B3677BADA-F80-978C4@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <8CE745F694432F5-21DC-FDD22@webmail-m158.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Let Google do it: they're good at algorithms. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175 http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Fri, Nov 18, 2011 at 5:17 PM, wrote: > Jeremy Bass: "Lorine Niedecker is left to languish in the obscurity in > which she spent most of her life. Thom Gunn, whose pitch-perfect poems of > homosexual love and Eros guided the work of many poets included in the > anthology, is absent. Robert Penn Warren and John Crowe Ransom, poets whose > theories challenged and provoked Randall Jarrell, Robert Lowell and John > Berryman, have been lopped off the family tree. And in a volume that > includes some of the most accomplished contemporary poets?Robert Pinsky and > Frank Bidart, Sharon Olds and Jorie Graham?where are the indispensable > poems of Louise Gl?ck and Jean Valentine? Finally, what literary anthology > of twentieth-century American verse could be complete without Louis > Zukofsky, George Oppen..." > > Based on the above snip it look like Objectvists took a direct omit hit. > No Niedecker, no Zukofsky (though judging from his son's bizarre 'I'm the > rights holder and don't you forget it or try to claim fair use' statement > online a year or two ago maybe highway robbery regards permission to > reprint played a part in the Zuke omission), and no Oppen. Ouch. We've > been talking mainly about Dove's corrective measures in terms of diversity, > but this is a major miss in terms of 'aesthetic diversity'. > > I guess my question is: Should one person be charged with assembling a > century of poetry? Shouldn' t it be small cadre, let's say three people so > as to break ties, and shouldn't they, as a group, first outline the whole > century (at risk of sounding like Bob), map the major movements, schools > and trends, and decide going into the assembly, "about X pages for > Confessionals, about Y pages for Harlem Renaissance, about Z pages for > Feminists, etc." until the map is gerrymandered accordingly. Then start to > fill in the blanks. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: jforjames > To: new-poetry > Sent: Fri, Nov 18, 2011 7:04 am > Subject: Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation > > In her 1988 lecture ?Unspeakable Things Unspoken,? Toni Morrison coined > a memorable conceit: ?Canon building is empire building. Canon defense is > national defense.? In *The Penguin Anthology of 20th Century Poetry* ($40), > former poet laureate Rita Dove takes up the challenge of expanding the > canon of American poetry to include those she says have been ?sidelined > from the mainstream?s surging currents.? But she does so in a manner > that... > > http://www.thenation.com/article/164325/shelf-life > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carol.dorf at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 20:31:14 2011 From: carol.dorf at gmail.com (carol dorf) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2011 17:31:14 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Vendler not so lovey dovey & the "POL" of CodedRacism In-Reply-To: <8CE73BD0F322090-1DBC-83A7F@webmail-m031.sysops.aol.com> References: <5f230.3674677b.3bf54ac7@cs.com> <4EC40268.6070301@louisiana.edu> <4EC41619.9030202@louisiana.edu> <8CE73BD0F322090-1DBC-83A7F@webmail-m031.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I love the "worthy poet per capita" standard! On Thu, Nov 17, 2011 at 7:55 PM, wrote: > The 175 figure is interesting if one thinks about population growth. In > 1900 the US population was approximately 76M, but by 2000 we were at > roughly 276M, or about 3.5 x the population of 1900. So if a 19thC poetry > anthology, coming out shortly after 1900, featured 50 poets, then, all > things being equal, an anthology released shortly after 2000 would need 175 > (3.5 x 50) poets in its table of contents, otherwise our 'worthy poet per > capita' standard of living would have declined. > > Finnegan > >> >> >> On 11/16/2011 12:35 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: >> >> There's another point floating here--the weird claim (Amy mentioned it) >> that "No century in the evolution of poetry in English ever had 175 poets >> worth reading." What kind of exhaustion is speaking here? "Worth reading" >> is what it's all about--what's worth reading to me, worth reading to my >> students, worth reading to Bob Grumman, etc. My own sense is that no one >> who reads a poem or two (thousand) that's not worth reading is reading >> enough poetry--certainly not enough to snatch a podium and start lecturing. >> As a teacher, not to mention just as a human being, I know that there are >> lots of poems that are perversely written, ideologically nasty, and >> intellectually superficial that have been very much worth _my_ reading at >> one time or another, because (like a scientist who may learn something new >> by catching a glimpse of a bug he's never seen before) my reading--my sense >> of what is worth reading--is basically motivated by curiositywhose primary >> expression is the imposition of arbitrary limits. I'm not trying to answer >> or critique Vendler's comments about Dove's anthology here, or the sense >> that what's "worth reading" is a decision entrusted to Dove by a corporate >> cabal at Penguin--that what's "worth reading," in other words, is >> contextual in ways neither Dove nor Vendler wants to acknowledge. I'm just >> saying that that "175" points to a chasm between Vendler's way of thinking >> about this art and any responsible way of thinking about it I can imagine. >> >> Jerry >> >> On 11/16/2011 11:42 AM, gabriel gudding wrote: >> >> Yay to Amy's take-down. Vendler's is a real dog-whistle of a review. >> >> Hard to believe V's really decrying the lack of more representation for >> Stevens or Merrill. But the history of poetry's nothing if not a chronicle >> of doozies, lies, privilege, and violence. Ick. >> >> And good for Dove. >> >> On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 11:20 AM, wrote: >> >>> In a message dated 11/16/2011 11:15:01 AM Central Standard Time, >>> halvard at gmail.com writes: >>> >>> >>> I say tear down those schools of poetry as well. >>> >>> >>> >>> Serving the tri-state area. >>> >>> >>> Hal >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Wasn't the Department of Poetry the third one Rick Perry couldn't >>> remember? >>> >>> Sam >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> -- >> ________________________________________________________ >> >> Jerry McGuire >> English Department Box 44691 >> University of Louisiana at Lafayette >> Lafayette LA 70504-4691337-482-5478 >> Creative Writing Website:http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html >> ______________________________________________________ >> >> >> >> -- >> ________________________________________________________ >> >> Jerry McGuire >> English Department Box 44691 >> University of Louisiana at Lafayette >> Lafayette LA 70504-4691337-482-5478 >> Creative Writing Website:http://www.louisiana.edu/Academic/LiberalArts/ENGL/Creative/Index.html >> ______________________________________________________ >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Nov 19 10:34:22 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 07:34:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Five Powers Poetry Seminars In-Reply-To: <107B608C42EF448B97A59DB12AE32C11@BobHP> Message-ID: <1321716862.30818.YahooMailClassic@web161916.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> 5 powers ... sounds new agey ... maybe the seminar will help one develope his/her inner muse. --- On Fri, 11/18/11, bob grumman wrote: From: bob grumman Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Five Powers Poetry Seminars To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Friday, November 18, 2011, 4:46 PM ? Hoagland's Five Powers Poetry Seminars ? http://us2.forward-to-friend.com/forward/show?u=5fcdc4e88a25200d6b7cb5170&id=3de4d97779 My idea has been to develop the Five Powers Poetry Seminars, an intensive short-term course designed to teach, guide, and support high school and college teachers in the art of teaching poetry in the classroom. ? My experiment is represented by a new Five Powers of Poetry website: ? They are image, diction, voice, structure and implication.? You have to sign up for his course to learn more, I guess.? I think you?d learn more the discussion of what makes an effective poem we had here a few years back than from Hoagland.? Anyone know more about his five powers?? Or think them worth discussion?? I would replace ?voice? with ?emotion.?? Unsurprisingly, I would add ?technique,? which I consider the most important ?power.?? I will be amazed if he treats any ?structure? not discussed in poetry handbooks sixty or more years ago.? ?Implication? sounds vapid to me, and I would want ?freshness? to be discussed, although that could be discussed as part of any or all of the other powers. ? --Bob ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Nov 19 10:30:21 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 10:30:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Five Powers Poetry Seminars In-Reply-To: <107B608C42EF448B97A59DB12AE32C11@BobHP> References: <8CE73B704053FA1-1DBC-8349A@webmail-m031.sysops.aol.com> <107B608C42EF448B97A59DB12AE32C11@BobHP> Message-ID: <8CE74E748DC3047-744-DFC12@Webmail-m109.sysops.aol.com> Bob, I guess if he told you too much about the powers (& his process) there would less interest in signing up for his seminar. The seminar seems to be aimed at teachers maybe from middle school up through the undergraduate level. (Tho I would think those teachers already holding MFA degrees should be pretty well equipped to teach poetry at this level.) I don't know Hoagland's circumstances but I'm wondering if he's doing these seminars instead of taking a regular teaching position like most contemporary poets do to pay the bills. Maybe it's a little less demanding, leaving more time for writing and 'barding around' to use Robert Frost's expression. Perhaps his 'implication' is another way of saying: "Does this poet make me care about what s/he's saying or the way in which s/he's saying it?" Does the poem readily and convincingly answer the "So what?" test. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: bob grumman To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sat, Nov 19, 2011 12:14 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Five Powers Poetry Seminars Hoagland's Five Powers Poetry Seminars http://us2.forward-to-friend.com/forward/show?u=5fcdc4e88a25200d6b7cb5170&id=3de4d97779 My idea has been to develop the Five Powers Poetry Seminars, an intensive short-term course designed to teach, guide, and support high school and college teachers in the art of teaching poetry in the classroom. My experiment is represented by a new Five Powers of Poetry website: They are image, diction, voice, structure and implication. You have to sign up for his course to learn more, I guess. I think you?d learn more the discussion of what makes an effective poem we had here a few years back than from Hoagland. Anyone know more about his five powers? Or think them worth discussion? I would replace ?voice? with ?emotion.? Unsurprisingly, I would add ?technique,? which I consider the most important ?power.? I will be amazed if he treats any ?structure? not discussed in poetry handbooks sixty or more years ago. ?Implication? sounds vapid to me, and I would want ?freshness? to be discussed, although that could be discussed as part of any or all of the other powers. --Bob _ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Nov 19 11:45:42 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 11:45:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] EE Cummings, one-man show Message-ID: <8CE74F1CFAE9E1C-1B44-EB24B@webmail-d165.sysops.aol.com> http://www.nj.com/entertainment/arts/index.ssf/2011/11/anthony_zerbe_done_with_mirror.html Anthony Zerbe is offering Hackettstown [NJ] audiences a capital evening. Even e. e. cummings, who had no use for capital letters, might approve the one-man show the Emmy-winning Zerbe is devoting to him. Zerbe wrote and called the hour-long presentation ?It?s All Done With Mirrors ? Damn Everything but the Circus.? The former part of the title comes from a play cummings wrote in the ?20s, the latter from a lecture and poem he penned in the ?30s. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cvoisine at nmsu.edu Sat Nov 19 12:10:20 2011 From: cvoisine at nmsu.edu (Connie Voisine) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 10:10:20 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Five Powers Poetry Seminars In-Reply-To: <1321716862.30818.YahooMailClassic@web161916.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <107B608C42EF448B97A59DB12AE32C11@BobHP> <1321716862.30818.YahooMailClassic@web161916.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ...maybe more like superhero-y! On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 8:34 AM, stephen russell < poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: > 5 powers ... sounds new agey ... maybe the seminar will help one develope > his/her inner muse. > > --- On *Fri, 11/18/11, bob grumman * wrote: > > > From: bob grumman > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Five Powers Poetry Seminars > To: "NewPoetry List" > Date: Friday, November 18, 2011, 4:46 PM > > > Hoagland's Five Powers Poetry Seminars > > > http://us2.forward-to-friend.com/forward/show?u=5fcdc4e88a25200d6b7cb5170&id=3de4d97779 > > My idea has been to develop the Five Powers Poetry Seminars, an intensive > short-term course designed to teach, guide, and support high school and > college teachers in the art of teaching poetry in the classroom. > > My experiment is represented by a new Five Powers of Poetry website: > > They are image, diction, voice, structure and implication. You have to > sign up for his course to learn more, I guess. I think you?d learn more > the discussion of what makes an effective poem we had here a few years back > than from Hoagland. Anyone know more about his five powers? Or think them > worth discussion? I would replace ?voice? with ?emotion.? Unsurprisingly, > I would add ?technique,? which I consider the most important ?power.? I > will be amazed if he treats any ?structure? not discussed in poetry > handbooks sixty or more years ago. ?Implication? sounds vapid to me, and I > would want ?freshness? to be discussed, although that could be discussed as > part of any or all of the other powers. > > --Bob > > > > -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Connie Voisine Associate Professor of English New Mexico State University cvoisine at nmsu.edu 575-646-2027 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Nov 19 13:25:22 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 13:25:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] EE Cummings, one-man show In-Reply-To: <8CE74F1CFAE9E1C-1B44-EB24B@webmail-d165.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE74F1CFAE9E1C-1B44-EB24B@webmail-d165.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Anthony Zerbe is offering Hackettstown [NJ] audiences a capital evening. Even e. e. cummings, who had no use for capital letters, might approve the one-man show the Emmy-winning Zerbe is devoting to him. I hope Zerbe doesn?t agree with the previous sentence. Cummings probably loved capital letters more than any previous poet. Certainly, he put them to better use than any previous poet. Zerbe wrote and called the hour-long presentation ?It?s All Done With Mirrors ? Damn Everything but the Circus.? The former part of the title comes from a play cummings wrote in the ?20s, the latter from a lecture and poem he penned in the ?30s. I am pleased to hear about this. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Nov 19 13:41:30 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 13:41:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation In-Reply-To: <8CE745F694432F5-21DC-FDD22@webmail-m158.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE742B3677BADA-F80-978C4@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <8CE745F694432F5-21DC-FDD22@webmail-m158.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <076510E529DC472CA81B9791AFDF0C2D@BobHP> From: jforjames at aol.com Jeremy Bass: "Lorine Niedecker is left to languish in the obscurity in which she spent most of her life. Thom Gunn, whose pitch-perfect poems of homosexual love and Eros guided the work of many poets included in the anthology, is absent. Robert Penn Warren and John Crowe Ransom, poets whose theories challenged and provoked Randall Jarrell, Robert Lowell and John Berryman, have been lopped off the family tree. And in a volume that includes some of the most accomplished contemporary poets?Robert Pinsky and Frank Bidart, Sharon Olds and Jorie Graham?where are the indispensable poems of Louise Gl?ck and Jean Valentine? Finally, what literary anthology of twentieth-century American verse could be complete without Louis Zukofsky, George Oppen..." Based on the above snip it look like Objectvists took a direct omit hit. No Niedecker, no Zukofsky (though judging from his son's bizarre 'I'm the rights holder and don't you forget it or try to claim fair use' statement online a year or two ago maybe highway robbery regards permission to reprint played a part in the Zuke omission), and no Oppen. Ouch. We've been talking mainly about Dove's corrective measures in terms of diversity, but this is a major miss in terms of 'aesthetic diversity'. I guess my question is: Should one person be charged with assembling a century of poetry? Shouldn' t it be small cadre, let's say three people so as to break ties, and shouldn't they, as a group, first outline the whole century (at risk of sounding like Bob), map the major movements, schools and trends, and decide going into the assembly, "about X pages for Confessionals, about Y pages for Harlem Renaissance, about Z pages for Feminists, etc." until the map is gerrymandered accordingly. Then start to fill in the blanks. At last, a student who has paid attention in class! Just to follow up an Finnegan?s suggestions, it?s at this stage that I would like to see a super-inclusive anthology, perhaps in multiple volumes. One that doesn?t try to establish a canon, but tries to represent as much of the different kinds of poetry (including stuff like prose poems that I don?t consider poetry but others do). With an editor-in-chief for final decisions, but also an editor/commentator for each school represented. Too expensive to do? Bah, surely the Poetry Foundation could handle the cost, and why would they not if they were not the narrow-sensed gatekeepers I claim they are? Note: I think the Rothenberg/Joris series comes close to doing this but has flaws, and doesn?t cover the entire range (although I think its editors did their best to). --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Nov 19 14:19:39 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 14:19:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation In-Reply-To: <076510E529DC472CA81B9791AFDF0C2D@BobHP> References: <8CE742B3677BADA-F80-978C4@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com><8CE745F694432F5-21DC-FDD22@webmail-m158.sysops.aol.com> <076510E529DC472CA81B9791AFDF0C2D@BobHP> Message-ID: <8CE750750EC4E77-DC4-A5385@webmail-d018.sysops.aol.com> Those Rothenberg & Joris anthologies (Poems for the Millenium, in 3 vols, I think?) are magnificent compilations, but they're 'corrective' in nature: Trying to expand beyond the trad canon (with some overlap, of course, but pushing out the boundaries to include more innovative/experimental/neglected work, and more international poetry, as well). So you'd need to combine those with a hefty dose of Norton or some other thick traditional canonical anthology to really cover the waterfront. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: bob grumman To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:41 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation From: jforjames at aol.com Jeremy Bass: "Lorine Niedecker is left to languish in the obscurity in which she spent most of her life. Thom Gunn, whose pitch-perfect poems of homosexual love and Eros guided the work of many poets included in the anthology, is absent. Robert Penn Warren and John Crowe Ransom, poets whose theories challenged and provoked Randall Jarrell, Robert Lowell and John Berryman, have been lopped off the family tree. And in a volume that includes some of the most accomplished contemporary poets?Robert Pinsky and Frank Bidart, Sharon Olds and Jorie Graham?where are the indispensable poems of Louise Gl?ck and Jean Valentine? Finally, what literary anthology of twentieth-century American verse could be complete without Louis Zukofsky, George Oppen..." Based on the above snip it look like Objectvists took a direct omit hit. No Niedecker, no Zukofsky (though judging from his son's bizarre 'I'm the rights holder and don't you forget it or try to claim fair use' statement online a year or two ago maybe highway robbery regards permission to reprint played a part in the Zuke omission), and no Oppen. Ouch. We've been talking mainly about Dove's corrective measures in terms of diversity, but this is a major miss in terms of 'aesthetic diversity'. I guess my question is: Should one person be charged with assembling a century of poetry? Shouldn' t it be small cadre, let's say three people so as to break ties, and shouldn't they, as a group, first outline the whole century (at risk of sounding like Bob), map the major movements, schools and trends, and decide going into the assembly, "about X pages for Confessionals, about Y pages for Harlem Renaissance, about Z pages for Feminists, etc." until the map is gerrymandered accordingly. Then start to fill in the blanks. At last, a student who has paid attention in class! Just to follow up an Finnegan?s suggestions, it?s at this stage that I would like to see a super-inclusive anthology, perhaps in multiple volumes. One that doesn?t try to establish a canon, but tries to represent as much of the different kinds of poetry (including stuff like prose poems that I don?t consider poetry but others do). With an editor-in-chief for final decisions, but also an editor/commentator for each school represented. Too expensive to do? Bah, surely the Poetry Foundation could handle the cost, and why would they not if they were not the narrow-sensed gatekeepers I claim they are? Note: I think the Rothenberg/Joris series comes close to doing this but has flaws, and doesn?t cover the entire range (although I think its editors did their best to). --Bob __ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Nov 19 14:37:47 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 11:37:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Five Powers Poetry Seminars In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1321731467.50684.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> --- On Sat, 11/19/11, Connie Voisine wrote: From: Connie Voisine Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Five Powers Poetry Seminars To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, November 19, 2011, 12:10 PM ...maybe more like superhero-y! On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 8:34 AM, stephen russell wrote: 5 powers ... sounds new agey ... maybe the seminar will help one develope his/her inner muse. --- On Fri, 11/18/11, bob grumman wrote: From: bob grumman Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Five Powers Poetry Seminars To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Friday, November 18, 2011, 4:46 PM ? Hoagland's Five Powers Poetry Seminars ? http://us2.forward-to-friend.com/forward/show?u=5fcdc4e88a25200d6b7cb5170&id=3de4d97779 My idea has been to develop the Five Powers Poetry Seminars, an intensive short-term course designed to teach, guide, and support high school and college teachers in the art of teaching poetry in the classroom. ? My experiment is represented by a new Five Powers of Poetry website: ? They are image, diction, voice, structure and implication.? You have to sign up for his course to learn more, I guess.? I think you?d learn more the discussion of what makes an effective poem we had here a few years back than from Hoagland.? Anyone know more about his five powers?? Or think them worth discussion?? I would replace ?voice? with ?emotion.?? Unsurprisingly, I would add ?technique,? which I consider the most important ?power.?? I will be amazed if he treats any ?structure? not discussed in poetry handbooks sixty or more years ago.? ?Implication? sounds vapid to me, and I would want ?freshness? to be discussed, although that could be discussed as part of any or all of the other powers. ? --Bob ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Connie Voisine Associate Professor of English New Mexico State University cvoisine at nmsu.edu 575-646-2027 -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Nov 19 14:43:42 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 11:43:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Five Powers Poetry Seminars In-Reply-To: <1321731467.50684.YahooMailClassic@web161918.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1321731822.75115.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> i meant -- --- On Sat, 11/19/11, stephen russell wrote: From: stephen russell Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Five Powers Poetry Seminars To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, November 19, 2011, 2:37 PM --- On Sat, 11/19/11, Connie Voisine wrote: From: Connie Voisine Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Five Powers Poetry Seminars To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, November 19, 2011, 12:10 PM ...maybe more like superhero-y! On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 8:34 AM, stephen russell wrote: 5 powers ... sounds new agey ... maybe the seminar will help one develope his/her inner muse. --- On Fri, 11/18/11, bob grumman wrote: From: bob grumman Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Five Powers Poetry Seminars To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Friday, November 18, 2011, 4:46 PM ? Hoagland's Five Powers Poetry Seminars ? http://us2.forward-to-friend.com/forward/show?u=5fcdc4e88a25200d6b7cb5170&id=3de4d97779 My idea has been to develop the Five Powers Poetry Seminars, an intensive short-term course designed to teach, guide, and support high school and college teachers in the art of teaching poetry in the classroom. ? My experiment is represented by a new Five Powers of Poetry website: ? They are image, diction, voice, structure and implication.? You have to sign up for his course to learn more, I guess.? I think you?d learn more the discussion of what makes an effective poem we had here a few years back than from Hoagland.? Anyone know more about his five powers?? Or think them worth discussion?? I would replace ?voice? with ?emotion.?? Unsurprisingly, I would add ?technique,? which I consider the most important ?power.?? I will be amazed if he treats any ?structure? not discussed in poetry handbooks sixty or more years ago.? ?Implication? sounds vapid to me, and I would want ?freshness? to be discussed, although that could be discussed as part of any or all of the other powers. ? --Bob ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Connie Voisine Associate Professor of English New Mexico State University cvoisine at nmsu.edu 575-646-2027 -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Nov 19 14:44:31 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 11:44:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Five Powers Poetry Seminars In-Reply-To: <1321731822.75115.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1321731871.19681.YahooMailClassic@web161908.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> the image ... disregard ... can't copy the image ... --- On Sat, 11/19/11, stephen russell wrote: From: stephen russell Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Five Powers Poetry Seminars To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, November 19, 2011, 2:43 PM i meant -- --- On Sat, 11/19/11, stephen russell wrote: From: stephen russell Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Five Powers Poetry Seminars To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, November 19, 2011, 2:37 PM --- On Sat, 11/19/11, Connie Voisine wrote: From: Connie Voisine Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Five Powers Poetry Seminars To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, November 19, 2011, 12:10 PM ...maybe more like superhero-y! On Sat, Nov 19, 2011 at 8:34 AM, stephen russell wrote: 5 powers ... sounds new agey ... maybe the seminar will help one develope his/her inner muse. --- On Fri, 11/18/11, bob grumman wrote: From: bob grumman Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Five Powers Poetry Seminars To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Friday, November 18, 2011, 4:46 PM ? Hoagland's Five Powers Poetry Seminars ? http://us2.forward-to-friend.com/forward/show?u=5fcdc4e88a25200d6b7cb5170&id=3de4d97779 My idea has been to develop the Five Powers Poetry Seminars, an intensive short-term course designed to teach, guide, and support high school and college teachers in the art of teaching poetry in the classroom. ? My experiment is represented by a new Five Powers of Poetry website: ? They are image, diction, voice, structure and implication.? You have to sign up for his course to learn more, I guess.? I think you?d learn more the discussion of what makes an effective poem we had here a few years back than from Hoagland.? Anyone know more about his five powers?? Or think them worth discussion?? I would replace ?voice? with ?emotion.?? Unsurprisingly, I would add ?technique,? which I consider the most important ?power.?? I will be amazed if he treats any ?structure? not discussed in poetry handbooks sixty or more years ago.? ?Implication? sounds vapid to me, and I would want ?freshness? to be discussed, although that could be discussed as part of any or all of the other powers. ? --Bob ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Connie Voisine Associate Professor of English New Mexico State University cvoisine at nmsu.edu 575-646-2027 -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Nov 19 14:49:20 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 14:49:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation In-Reply-To: <8CE750750EC4E77-DC4-A5385@webmail-d018.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE742B3677BADA-F80-978C4@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com><8CE745F694432F5-21DC-FDD22@webmail-m158.sysops.aol.com><076510E529DC472CA81B9791AFDF0C2D@BobHP> <8CE750750EC4E77-DC4-A5385@webmail-d018.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CE750B76A3F61E-DC4-A590A@webmail-d018.sysops.aol.com> I'm not doing the real work, but since no one-volume anthology could be all encompassing when it comes to a century such as ours, the editor(s) could include a section in the back of the book where certain poets are listed, with suggested/key poems... Here is a listing of poets who for want of space the editor(s) decided not include in this single volume anthology, but who are nevertheless important to any student of 20th Century American Poetry: Mina Loy (1882-1966), often associated with the international futurist and surrealist movements. "Lunar Baedeker" "The Black Virginity" James Schulyer (1923-1991), often associated with 'The New York School' of poets. "Morning of the Poem" "Hymn to Life" [Etc.] - It might soften the blow of certain omissions because at least one would know certain missing poets were at least 'known quantities' to the eds. and in the hunt, so to speak, and for the truly interested reader/student, the listing might lead to some discoveries. But, then again, it's easy for me to say since I wasn't doing the work. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: jforjames To: new-poetry Sent: Sat, Nov 19, 2011 9:19 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation Those Rothenberg & Joris anthologies (Poems for the Millenium, in 3 vols, I think?) are magnificent compilations, but they're 'corrective' in nature: Trying to expand beyond the trad canon (with some overlap, of course, but pushing out the boundaries to include more innovative/experimental/neglected work, and more international poetry, as well). So you'd need to combine those with a hefty dose of Norton or some other thick traditional canonical anthology to really cover the waterfront. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: bob grumman To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sat, Nov 19, 2011 8:41 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation From: jforjames at aol.com Jeremy Bass: "Lorine Niedecker is left to languish in the obscurity in which she spent most of her life. Thom Gunn, whose pitch-perfect poems of homosexual love and Eros guided the work of many poets included in the anthology, is absent. Robert Penn Warren and John Crowe Ransom, poets whose theories challenged and provoked Randall Jarrell, Robert Lowell and John Berryman, have been lopped off the family tree. And in a volume that includes some of the most accomplished contemporary poets?Robert Pinsky and Frank Bidart, Sharon Olds and Jorie Graham?where are the indispensable poems of Louise Gl?ck and Jean Valentine? Finally, what literary anthology of twentieth-century American verse could be complete without Louis Zukofsky, George Oppen..." Based on the above snip it look like Objectvists took a direct omit hit. No Niedecker, no Zukofsky (though judging from his son's bizarre 'I'm the rights holder and don't you forget it or try to claim fair use' statement online a year or two ago maybe highway robbery regards permission to reprint played a part in the Zuke omission), and no Oppen. Ouch. We've been talking mainly about Dove's corrective measures in terms of diversity, but this is a major miss in terms of 'aesthetic diversity'. I guess my question is: Should one person be charged with assembling a century of poetry? Shouldn' t it be small cadre, let's say three people so as to break ties, and shouldn't they, as a group, first outline the whole century (at risk of sounding like Bob), map the major movements, schools and trends, and decide going into the assembly, "about X pages for Confessionals, about Y pages for Harlem Renaissance, about Z pages for Feminists, etc." until the map is gerrymandered accordingly. Then start to fill in the blanks. At last, a student who has paid attention in class! Just to follow up an Finnegan?s suggestions, it?s at this stage that I would like to see a super-inclusive anthology, perhaps in multiple volumes. One that doesn?t try to establish a canon, but tries to represent as much of the different kinds of poetry (including stuff like prose poems that I don?t consider poetry but others do). With an editor-in-chief for final decisions, but also an editor/commentator for each school represented. Too expensive to do? Bah, surely the Poetry Foundation could handle the cost, and why would they not if they were not the narrow-sensed gatekeepers I claim they are? Note: I think the Rothenberg/Joris series comes close to doing this but has flaws, and doesn?t cover the entire range (although I think its editors did their best to). --Bob __ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 14:58:52 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 20:58:52 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Argotist interview with Pete Brown, poet and former lyricist for the 1960s rock group, Cream In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ** Argotist interview with Pete Brown, poet and former lyricist for the1960s rock group, Cream. Part of the ongoing Argotist singer-songwriter interview series: ****** http://www.argotistonline.co.uk/Pete%20Brown.htm -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 15:20:15 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 21:20:15 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Call for Submissions Message-ID: http://eventalaesthetics.net/for-authors/ Evental Aesthetics -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 17:11:45 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 23:11:45 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cormac McCarthy and Postfrontier Writing Message-ID: http://ejas.revues.org/9310 http://ejas.revues.org/9245 -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Nov 19 17:21:46 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 17:21:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation In-Reply-To: <8CE750B76A3F61E-DC4-A590A@webmail-d018.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE742B3677BADA-F80-978C4@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com><8CE745F694432F5-21DC-FDD22@webmail-m158.sysops.aol.com><07651 0E529DC472CA81B9791AFDF0C2D@BobHP><8CE750750EC4E77-DC4-A5385@webmail-d018.sysops.aol.com> <8CE750B76A3F61E-DC4-A590A@webmail-d018.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: From: jforjames at aol.com Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:49 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation I'm not doing the real work, but since no one-volume anthology could be all encompassing when it comes to a century such as ours, the editor(s) could include a section in the back of the book where certain poets are listed, with suggested/key poems... Here is a listing of poets who for want of space the editor(s) decided not include in this single volume anthology, but who are nevertheless important to any student of 20th Century American Poetry: Mina Loy (1882-1966), often associated with the international futurist and surrealist movements. "Lunar Baedeker" "The Black Virginity" James Schulyer (1923-1991), often associated with 'The New York School' of poets. "Morning of the Poem" "Hymn to Life" How about Bukowski? I forgot to look for his name the times I had the table of contents at hand. He?s certainly as ?influential? as Ginsberg was. I think McKuen should be in the thing, too. He?s better than Baraka and sever others who are in, and representative of a certain flavor of poem no one included in the anthology is. And here is a listing of Schools of Poetry some of which I know are not represented in the anthology, others of which I doubt are, none of which is more than tokenly represented, at best. All are either as important as any school represented in it, or may prove to have been so during the next few decades: Haiku Light Verse Visual Poetry Infraverbal Poetry Cryptographic Poetry Mathematical Poetry Sound Poetry Chemical Poetry Grammar-centric Poetry (of which there are probably more than one school-sized important kind) Cyber Poetry Others I can?t think of right now. As well as some left out which won?t work in a book like performance and animated poetry. I find it entirely predictable that no academic or visible critic has or will mention that any school whatever has been left out, only favorite left-out poets whose schools are amply represented. I absolutely believe that many more poets left out of the post-1950 section of Dove?s anthology will be in the 2050 Penguin anthology than poets who made her anthology will be, if any are?and I doubt more than ten will be. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Sat Nov 19 21:32:00 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 02:32:00 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation In-Reply-To: References: <8CE742B3677BADA-F80-978C4@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com><8CE745F694432F5-21DC-FDD22@webmail-m158.sysops.aol.com><07651, 0E529DC472CA81B9791AFDF0C2D@BobHP><8CE750750EC4E77-DC4-A5385@webmail-d018.sysops.aol.com>, <8CE750B76A3F61E-DC4-A590A@webmail-d018.sysops.aol.com>, Message-ID: Yeah, I want the Rod Mckuen album(s) included, too! I remember they all had "wind" in the title. Or maybe I am mis-remebering? From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 17:21:46 -0500 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation From: jforjames at aol.com Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:49 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation I'm not doing the real work, but since no one-volume anthology could be all encompassing when it comes to a century such as ours, the editor(s) could include a section in the back of the book where certain poets are listed, with suggested/key poems... Here is a listing of poets who for want of space the editor(s) decided not include in this single volume anthology, but who are nevertheless important to any student of 20th Century American Poetry: Mina Loy (1882-1966), often associated with the international futurist and surrealist movements. "Lunar Baedeker" "The Black Virginity" James Schulyer (1923-1991), often associated with 'The New York School' of poets. "Morning of the Poem" "Hymn to Life" How about Bukowski? I forgot to look for his name the times I had the table of contents at hand. He?s certainly as ?influential? as Ginsberg was. I think McKuen should be in the thing, too. He?s better than Baraka and sever others who are in, and representative of a certain flavor of poem no one included in the anthology is. And here is a listing of Schools of Poetry some of which I know are not represented in the anthology, others of which I doubt are, none of which is more than tokenly represented, at best. All are either as important as any school represented in it, or may prove to have been so during the next few decades: Haiku Light Verse Visual Poetry Infraverbal Poetry Cryptographic Poetry Mathematical Poetry Sound Poetry Chemical Poetry Grammar-centric Poetry (of which there are probably more than one school-sized important kind) Cyber Poetry Others I can?t think of right now. As well as some left out which won?t work in a book like performance and animated poetry. I find it entirely predictable that no academic or visible critic has or will mention that any school whatever has been left out, only favorite left-out poets whose schools are amply represented. I absolutely believe that many more poets left out of the post-1950 section of Dove?s anthology will be in the 2050 Penguin anthology than poets who made her anthology will be, if any are?and I doubt more than ten will be. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Nov 19 23:32:58 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 20:32:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1321763578.40814.YahooMailClassic@web161916.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> This has nothing to do with the anthology, but since Grumman mentioned the Buk -- There are several steps you can take to learn how to write poetry like Bukowski. If you enjoy the rebellious appeal of Charles Bukowski's poetry, it's time to construct a similar poem of your own. 1 Boast about yourself. Bukowski's poems are filled with self-love and boasting. He's the best at everything he does. Everyone else appears inferior. If you find it difficult to boast about yourself, develop an alter ego, like Bukowski's "Chinaski." While Chinaski has nothing to come home to, but an empty refrigerator in a rooming house each day, he's a strong, misunderstood genius. No one is smarter than him. Bukowski uses the word "genius" to describe himself (or his alter ego Chinaski) in several poems. Take, for example, the poem titled: "The Genius of the Crowd." Bukowski employs third person narrative, which may be easier for poets who sturggle to write about themselves and their experiences in first person narrative. 2 Take the boasting to another level: Exaggerate. If you arm wrestled one man in your local tavern and lost, write a poem that describes arm wrestling six men and beating them all. Bukowski had a way of capturing the reader's attention with his blatant exaggerations. One has to look no further than the poem titled "Bad Times at the 3rd and Vermont Hotel," when Bukowski discusses kicking someone all the way to hell. 3 Write about women. Bukowski's poems are filled with humorous and sad tales of crazy women, lust, and love. Use imagery to describe the physical attributes of the women. Bukowski always described women's thighs, hair, eyes, and "flank." 4 Write about hardships. When things aren't going right, write a poem about it. Bukowski utilized his hardships to create poems like "No Help for That," and "Everything." By unleashing his frustrations with loss, death, and pain, Bukowski created poetry that the common man or woman can identify with. 5 Use daily experiences as motivation. Whether you're unlucky in love, lost your last ten dollars at the race track, or have a problem with alcohol, write it down and create a poem. Through poetry, Bukowski shared the details of his life. Write about the local tavern and the outlandish patrons. Describe the woman that broke your heart and took your dog. These are the experiences that helped Bukowski write poetry others could identify with. Read more: How to Write Poetry Like Bukowski | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/how_4660966_write-poetry-like-bukowski.html#ixzz1eDUEYUth --- On Sat, 11/19/11, bob grumman wrote: From: bob grumman Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Saturday, November 19, 2011, 5:21 PM ? ? From: jforjames at aol.com Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:49 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation ? I'm not doing the real work, but since no one-volume anthology could be all encompassing when it comes to a century such as ours, the editor(s) could include a section in the back of the book where certain poets are listed, with suggested/key poems... ? Here is a listing of poets who for want of space the editor(s) decided not include in this single volume anthology, but who are nevertheless important to any student of 20th Century American Poetry: ? Mina Loy (1882-1966), often associated with the international futurist and surrealist movements. "Lunar Baedeker" "The Black Virginity" ? James Schulyer (1923-1991), often associated with 'The New York School' of poets. "Morning of the Poem" "Hymn to Life" ? How about Bukowski?? I forgot to look for his name the times I had the table of contents at hand.? He?s certainly as ?influential? as Ginsberg was.? I think McKuen should be in the thing, too.? He?s better than Baraka and sever others who are in, and representative of a certain flavor of poem no one included in the anthology is. ? And here is a listing of Schools of Poetry some of which I know are not represented in the anthology, others of which I doubt are, none of which is more than tokenly represented, at best.? All are either as important as any school represented in it, or may prove to have been so during the next few decades: ? Haiku ? Light Verse ? Visual Poetry ? Infraverbal Poetry ? Cryptographic Poetry ? Mathematical Poetry ? Sound Poetry ? Chemical Poetry ? Grammar-centric Poetry (of which there are probably more than one school-sized important kind) ? Cyber Poetry ? Others I can?t think of right now.? As well as some left out which won?t work in a book like performance and animated poetry.? I find it entirely predictable that no academic or visible critic has or will mention that any school whatever has been left out, only favorite left-out poets whose schools are amply represented.? I absolutely believe that many more poets left out of the post-1950 section of Dove?s anthology will be in the 2050 Penguin anthology than poets who made her anthology will be, if any are?and I doubt more than ten will be. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Nov 20 06:07:48 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 06:07:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation In-Reply-To: <1321763578.40814.YahooMailClassic@web161916.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1321763578.40814.YahooMailClassic@web161916.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: There are several steps you can take to learn how to write poetry like Bukowski. I don?t think much of the steps. The most important one left out is to have a haiku sensibility, which Bukowski definitely had in his best poems. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sun Nov 20 09:33:57 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 06:33:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1321799637.47679.YahooMailClassic@web161916.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Mckuen could partner up with Maya Angelo. What a team. Who could touch such talent? --- On Sat, 11/19/11, sheila black wrote: From: sheila black Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Saturday, November 19, 2011, 9:32 PM Yeah, I want the Rod Mckuen album(s) included, too!?? I remember they all had "wind" in the title.? Or maybe I am mis-remebering? From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 17:21:46 -0500 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation ? ? From: jforjames at aol.com Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:49 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation ? I'm not doing the real work, but since no one-volume anthology could be all encompassing when it comes to a century such as ours, the editor(s) could include a section in the back of the book where certain poets are listed, with suggested/key poems... ? Here is a listing of poets who for want of space the editor(s) decided not include in this single volume anthology, but who are nevertheless important to any student of 20th Century American Poetry: ? Mina Loy (1882-1966), often associated with the international futurist and surrealist movements. "Lunar Baedeker" "The Black Virginity" ? James Schulyer (1923-1991), often associated with 'The New York School' of poets. "Morning of the Poem" "Hymn to Life" ? How about Bukowski?? I forgot to look for his name the times I had the table of contents at hand.? He?s certainly as ?influential? as Ginsberg was.? I think McKuen should be in the thing, too.? He?s better than Baraka and sever others who are in, and representative of a certain flavor of poem no one included in the anthology is. ? And here is a listing of Schools of Poetry some of which I know are not represented in the anthology, others of which I doubt are, none of which is more than tokenly represented, at best.? All are either as important as any school represented in it, or may prove to have been so during the next few decades: ? Haiku ? Light Verse ? Visual Poetry ? Infraverbal Poetry ? Cryptographic Poetry ? Mathematical Poetry ? Sound Poetry ? Chemical Poetry ? Grammar-centric Poetry (of which there are probably more than one school-sized important kind) ? Cyber Poetry ? Others I can?t think of right now.? As well as some left out which won?t work in a book like performance and animated poetry.? I find it entirely predictable that no academic or visible critic has or will mention that any school whatever has been left out, only favorite left-out poets whose schools are amply represented.? I absolutely believe that many more poets left out of the post-1950 section of Dove?s anthology will be in the 2050 Penguin anthology than poets who made her anthology will be, if any are?and I doubt more than ten will be. ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 09:38:23 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 08:38:23 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Robert Hass on Occupy Berkeley Message-ID: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/20/opinion/sunday/at-occupy-berkeley-beat-poets-has-new-meaning.html?ref=opinion&pagewanted=all Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175 http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Sun Nov 20 10:12:03 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 15:12:03 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation In-Reply-To: <1321799637.47679.YahooMailClassic@web161916.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: , <1321799637.47679.YahooMailClassic@web161916.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Inspirational!!!! Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 06:33:57 -0800 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation Mckuen could partner up with Maya Angelo. What a team. Who could touch such talent? --- On Sat, 11/19/11, sheila black wrote: From: sheila black Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Saturday, November 19, 2011, 9:32 PM Yeah, I want the Rod Mckuen album(s) included, too! I remember they all had "wind" in the title. Or maybe I am mis-remebering? From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2011 17:21:46 -0500 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation From: jforjames at aol.com Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:49 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation I'm not doing the real work, but since no one-volume anthology could be all encompassing when it comes to a century such as ours, the editor(s) could include a section in the back of the book where certain poets are listed, with suggested/key poems... Here is a listing of poets who for want of space the editor(s) decided not include in this single volume anthology, but who are nevertheless important to any student of 20th Century American Poetry: Mina Loy (1882-1966), often associated with the international futurist and surrealist movements. "Lunar Baedeker" "The Black Virginity" James Schulyer (1923-1991), often associated with 'The New York School' of poets. "Morning of the Poem" "Hymn to Life" How about Bukowski? I forgot to look for his name the times I had the table of contents at hand. He?s certainly as ?influential? as Ginsberg was. I think McKuen should be in the thing, too. He?s better than Baraka and sever others who are in, and representative of a certain flavor of poem no one included in the anthology is. And here is a listing of Schools of Poetry some of which I know are not represented in the anthology, others of which I doubt are, none of which is more than tokenly represented, at best. All are either as important as any school represented in it, or may prove to have been so during the next few decades: Haiku Light Verse Visual Poetry Infraverbal Poetry Cryptographic Poetry Mathematical Poetry Sound Poetry Chemical Poetry Grammar-centric Poetry (of which there are probably more than one school-sized important kind) Cyber Poetry Others I can?t think of right now. As well as some left out which won?t work in a book like performance and animated poetry. I find it entirely predictable that no academic or visible critic has or will mention that any school whatever has been left out, only favorite left-out poets whose schools are amply represented. I absolutely believe that many more poets left out of the post-1950 section of Dove?s anthology will be in the 2050 Penguin anthology than poets who made her anthology will be, if any are?and I doubt more than ten will be. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 12:04:38 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 11:04:38 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dogscape Message-ID: Dogscape The dog stood gawking, despising all your good reasons. Too much revenge for your own good. Checksums of infinite mercy, alleviating much of what comes to ail us. And say goodbye both to her and to whatever Alexandria you?re in the habit of leaving, of losing. --HJ Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175 http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sun Nov 20 12:43:45 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 09:43:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dogscape In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1321811025.59262.YahooMailClassic@web161911.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> i have this dog thing, sort of long ... a work in progress (that may or may not be progressing) ... none-the-less ... in the begining ...? or how it begins -- Dog ? ? I?ve looked around, I've seen and touched, but language, the game, the riddle, held me back. ? I?ve known love in a manner of speaking. The world was large -- ? I had a body: I should have known it was meant for reaching out. ? Once, I saw a black Lab limping,??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????its teeth, long, and sharp, gleamed like polished stone. Something was wrong with?his back. It was bruised. His back was raw. ? It was winter. The dog?s back was exposed to the cold. I took?his paw. I held it. We were together on a busy residential street. ? I felt alive. I too wanted to limp. I wanted to be this dog. I wanted to know what it was like to see the world and suffer as this dog suffered. I wanted to be totally other, with a body, conscious, but without a self--??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? the dog followed me, I couldn?t follow it-- ? ???????????????????????????????????????? ** ? I?m sick of riddles. ? I almost lived in the crack house. Darnell handed me the?stem. We were watching porn. ? Darnell was a man, a she-man bitch, some whacked out freak from planet X dressed in gaudy drag. Judy rested her head on my shoulder.? Darnell watched. ? Bet you never had a black chick before. Fuck off, Darnell. You white dudes are all into chocolate pudding. ? Judy was the real thing, pure and black, a girl into the coke Darnell was pimping ? I got up, challenged Darnell. I had a bottle of cheap bottom shelf gin I wanted to smash-- I wanted to cut Darnell open. Darnell laughed. ? Sit your ass down, white boy. Shit, you one crazy motherfucker. ? Later, while walking home, several sirens passed,? flashing sparks of red, blue and orange. I had primo weed wrapped in Turkish leaves????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ????????????????????????????????????sprinkled with a dime of crack, a blunt I had bought from Darnell. ? I couldn?t wait to get home, light up, listen Miles? melancholy muted trumpet on Kind of Blue, but I stood by the curb instead. I wanted to see what all the sirens were about. --- On Sun, 11/20/11, Halvard Johnson wrote: From: Halvard Johnson Subject: [New-Poetry] Dogscape To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" , "Poetryetc" Date: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 12:04 PM Dogscape The dog stood gawking, despising all your good reasons. Too much revenge for your own good. Checksums of infinite mercy, alleviating much of what comes to ail us. And say goodbye both to her and to whatever Alexandria you?re in the habit of leaving, of losing. --HJ?? ? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com Truck:?https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175 http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rustybarnes23 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 20 13:05:04 2011 From: rustybarnes23 at yahoo.com (Rusty Barnes) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 10:05:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Paul Blackburn Message-ID: <1321812304.37358.YahooMailNeo@web160704.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Does anyone know of recent (last twenty years or so, maybe thirty?) scholarship or general interest work about Paul Blackburn? If you do, could you point me in its direction? Thanks much-- Rusty ? http://www.friedchickenandcoffee.com http://www.livenudepoems.com http://www.nighttrainmagazine.com 617-816-8538 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 13:14:01 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 12:14:01 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Paul Blackburn In-Reply-To: <1321812304.37358.YahooMailNeo@web160704.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <1321812304.37358.YahooMailNeo@web160704.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ---> Google ---> "Paul Blackburn" Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175 http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 12:05 PM, Rusty Barnes wrote: > Does anyone know of recent (last twenty years or so, maybe thirty?) > scholarship or general interest work about Paul Blackburn? If you do, could > you point me in its direction? > > Thanks much-- > > Rusty > > http://www.friedchickenandcoffee.com > http://www.livenudepoems.com > http://www.nighttrainmagazine.com > 617-816-8538 > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rustybarnes23 at yahoo.com Sun Nov 20 13:25:58 2011 From: rustybarnes23 at yahoo.com (Rusty Barnes) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 10:25:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Paul Blackburn In-Reply-To: References: <1321812304.37358.YahooMailNeo@web160704.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1321813558.81627.YahooMailNeo@web160702.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Of course, I should have said I'd already used what resources I have, including Google, but thanks. http://www.livenudepoems.com/p/paul-blackburn-links.html ? http://www.friedchickenandcoffee.com http://www.livenudepoems.com http://www.nighttrainmagazine.com 617-816-8538 ________________________________ From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 1:14 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Paul Blackburn ---> Google ---> "Paul Blackburn" ?? ? Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com Truck:?https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175 http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com/ http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/ http://www.hamiltonstone.org/ http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II),?Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III),?Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems,?Mainly Black,?Obras P?blicas;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets;?Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones;?Tango Bouquet;?Theory of Harmony;?Rapsodie espagnole;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway;?The Sonnet Project;?G(e)nome;?Winter Journey;?Eclipse;?The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 12:05 PM, Rusty Barnes wrote: Does anyone know of recent (last twenty years or so, maybe thirty?) scholarship or general interest work about Paul Blackburn? If you do, could you point me in its direction? > > >Thanks much-- > > >Rusty >? >http://www.friedchickenandcoffee.com >http://www.livenudepoems.com >http://www.nighttrainmagazine.com >617-816-8538 >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Nov 20 13:40:37 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 13:40:37 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation In-Reply-To: References: <8CE742B3677BADA-F80-978C4@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com><8CE745F694432F5-21DC-FDD22@webmail-m158.sysops.aol.com><076510E529DC472CA81B9791AFDF0C2D@BobHP><8CE750750EC4E77-DC4-A5385@webmail-d018.sysops.aol.com><8CE750B76A3F61E-DC4-A590A@webmail-d018.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CE75CB0781E588-10A4-9F7BC@Webmail-m122.sysops.aol.com> I'm almost afraid to ask because it sounds dangerous and unhealthy, but what is Chemical Poetry? Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: bob grumman To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sat, Nov 19, 2011 12:22 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation From: jforjames at aol.com Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:49 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation I'm not doing the real work, but since no one-volume anthology could be all encompassing when it comes to a century such as ours, the editor(s) could include a section in the back of the book where certain poets are listed, with suggested/key poems... Here is a listing of poets who for want of space the editor(s) decided not include in this single volume anthology, but who are nevertheless important to any student of 20th Century American Poetry: Mina Loy (1882-1966), often associated with the international futurist and surrealist movements. "Lunar Baedeker" "The Black Virginity" James Schulyer (1923-1991), often associated with 'The New York School' of poets. "Morning of the Poem" "Hymn to Life" How about Bukowski? I forgot to look for his name the times I had the table of contents at hand. He?s certainly as ?influential? as Ginsberg was. I think McKuen should be in the thing, too. He?s better than Baraka and sever others who are in, and representative of a certain flavor of poem no one included in the anthology is. And here is a listing of Schools of Poetry some of which I know are not represented in the anthology, others of which I doubt are, none of which is more than tokenly represented, at best. All are either as important as any school represented in it, or may prove to have been so during the next few decades: Haiku Light Verse Visual Poetry Infraverbal Poetry Cryptographic Poetry Mathematical Poetry Sound Poetry Chemical Poetry Grammar-centric Poetry (of which there are probably more than one school-sized important kind) Cyber Poetry Others I can?t think of right now. As well as some left out which won?t work in a book like performance and animated poetry. I find it entirely predictable that no academic or visible critic has or will mention that any school whatever has been left out, only favorite left-out poets whose schools are amply represented. I absolutely believe that many more poets left out of the post-1950 section of Dove?s anthology will be in the 2050 Penguin anthology than poets who made her anthology will be, if any are?and I doubt more than ten will be. / -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 13:49:13 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 12:49:13 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation In-Reply-To: <8CE75CB0781E588-10A4-9F7BC@Webmail-m122.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE742B3677BADA-F80-978C4@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <8CE745F694432F5-21DC-FDD22@webmail-m158.sysops.aol.com> <076510E529DC472CA81B9791AFDF0C2D@BobHP> <8CE750750EC4E77-DC4-A5385@webmail-d018.sysops.aol.com> <8CE750B76A3F61E-DC4-A590A@webmail-d018.sysops.aol.com> <8CE75CB0781E588-10A4-9F7BC@Webmail-m122.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Look at the title sequence for Breaking Bad, and you'll see. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175 http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 12:40 PM, wrote: > I'm almost afraid to ask because it sounds dangerous and unhealthy, but > what is Chemical Poetry? > Finnegan > > -----Original Message----- > From: bob grumman > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Sat, Nov 19, 2011 12:22 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation > > > > *From:* jforjames at aol.com > *Sent:* Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:49 PM > *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation > > I'm not doing the real work, but since no one-volume anthology could be > all encompassing when it comes to a century such as ours, the editor(s) > could include a section in the back of the book where certain poets are > listed, with suggested/key poems... > > Here is a listing of poets who for want of space the editor(s) decided not > include in this single volume anthology, but who are nevertheless important > to any student of 20th Century American Poetry: > > Mina Loy (1882-1966), often associated with the international futurist and > surrealist movements. > "Lunar Baedeker" > "The Black Virginity" > > James Schulyer (1923-1991), often associated with 'The New York School' > of poets. > "Morning of the Poem" > "Hymn to Life" > > How about Bukowski? I forgot to look for his name the times I had the > table of contents at hand. He?s certainly as ?influential? as Ginsberg > was. I think McKuen should be in the thing, too. He?s better than Baraka > and sever others who are in, and representative of a certain flavor of poem > no one included in the anthology is. > > And here is a listing of Schools of Poetry some of which I know are not > represented in the anthology, others of which I doubt are, none of which is > more than tokenly represented, at best. All are either as important as any > school represented in it, or may prove to have been so during the next few > decades: > > Haiku > > Light Verse > > Visual Poetry > > Infraverbal Poetry > > Cryptographic Poetry > > Mathematical Poetry > > Sound Poetry > > Chemical Poetry > > Grammar-centric Poetry (of which there are probably more than one > school-sized important kind) > > Cyber Poetry > > Others I can?t think of right now. As well as some left out which won?t > work in a book like performance and animated poetry. I find it entirely > predictable that no academic or visible critic has or will mention that any > school whatever has been left out, only favorite left-out poets whose > schools are amply represented. I absolutely believe that many more poets > left out of the post-1950 section of Dove?s anthology will be in the 2050 > Penguin anthology than poets who made her anthology will be, if any are?and > I doubt more than ten will be. > > / > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sun Nov 20 14:05:24 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 11:05:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation In-Reply-To: <8CE75CB0781E588-10A4-9F7BC@Webmail-m122.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1321815924.56931.YahooMailClassic@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Chemical poetry is made of solids, liquids, and gases, sometimes illegal solids, liquids, and gases. --- On Sun, 11/20/11, jforjames at aol.com wrote: From: jforjames at aol.com Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Sunday, November 20, 2011, 1:40 PM I'm almost afraid to ask because it sounds dangerous and unhealthy, but what is Chemical Poetry?? Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: bob grumman To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sat, Nov 19, 2011 12:22 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation ? ? From: jforjames at aol.com Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:49 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation ? I'm not doing the real work, but since no one-volume anthology could be all encompassing when it comes to a century such as ours, the editor(s) could include a section in the back of the book where certain poets are listed, with suggested/key poems... ? Here is a listing of poets who for want of space the editor(s) decided not include in this single volume anthology, but who are nevertheless important to any student of 20th Century American Poetry: ? Mina Loy (1882-1966), often associated with the international futurist and surrealist movements. "Lunar Baedeker" "The Black Virginity" ? James Schulyer (1923-1991), often associated with 'The New York School' of poets. "Morning of the Poem" "Hymn to Life" ? How about Bukowski?? I forgot to look for his name the times I had the table of contents at hand.? He?s certainly as ?influential? as Ginsberg was.? I think McKuen should be in the thing, too.? He?s better than Baraka and sever others who are in, and representative of a certain flavor of poem no one included in the anthology is. ? And here is a listing of Schools of Poetry some of which I know are not represented in the anthology, others of which I doubt are, none of which is more than tokenly represented, at best.? All are either as important as any school represented in it, or may prove to have been so during the next few decades: ? Haiku ? Light Verse ? Visual Poetry ? Infraverbal Poetry ? Cryptographic Poetry ? Mathematical Poetry ? Sound Poetry ? Chemical Poetry ? Grammar-centric Poetry (of which there are probably more than one school-sized important kind) ? Cyber Poetry ? Others I can?t think of right now.? As well as some left out which won?t work in a book like performance and animated poetry.? I find it entirely predictable that no academic or visible critic has or will mention that any school whatever has been left out, only favorite left-out poets whose schools are amply represented.? I absolutely believe that many more poets left out of the post-1950 section of Dove?s anthology will be in the 2050 Penguin anthology than poets who made her anthology will be, if any are?and I doubt more than ten will be. ? / -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Nov 20 14:40:19 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 14:40:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Ars Poetica Library 2011 version Message-ID: <8CE75D35E975279-EFC-A2641@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com> The table still needs some work to make it sortable and more easy to navigate, but the Ars Poetica Library is now just shy of 400 titles (essays, criticism, guidebooks, etc.) .... http://arspoeticalibrary.blogspot.com/p/ars-poetica-library-2011.html As always, being a work in progress, your suggestions are welcome for the next version. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 15:12:03 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 14:12:03 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ars Poetica Library 2011 version In-Reply-To: <8CE75D35E975279-EFC-A2641@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE75D35E975279-EFC-A2641@webmail-m023.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I'm missing Donald Allen there: his companion volume (essays, manifestoes, etc.) to the New American Poetry anthology. Serving the tri-state area. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com Truck: https://plus.google.com/106252913724243142175 http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Remains To Be Seen *, Remains To Be Seen (Vol. II) ,** Remains To Be Seen (Vol. III) , *Sonnets from the Basque & Other Poems *, *Mainly Black , *Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; **Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; **Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; **G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sun, Nov 20, 2011 at 1:40 PM, wrote: > The table still needs some work to make it sortable and more easy to > navigate, but > the Ars Poetica Library is now just shy of 400 titles (essays, criticism, > guidebooks, etc.) .... > > http://arspoeticalibrary.blogspot.com/p/ars-poetica-library-2011.html > > As always, being a work in progress, your suggestions are welcome for > the next version. > Finnegan > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Nov 20 15:22:49 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (bob grumman) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2011 15:22:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation In-Reply-To: <8CE75CB0781E588-10A4-9F7BC@Webmail-m122.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CE742B3677BADA-F80-978C4@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com><8CE745F694432F5-21DC-FDD22@webmail-m158.sysops.aol.com><07651 0E529DC472CA81B9791AFDF0C2D@BobHP><8CE750750EC4E77-DC4-A5385@webmail-d018.sysops.aol.com><8CE750B76A3F61E-DC4-A590A@webmail-d01 8.sysops.aol.com> <8CE75CB0781E588-10A4-9F7BC@Webmail-m122.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <7793F5A0DBCF42FBA3DE139033522E18@BobHP> From: jforjames at aol.com Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2011 1:40 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Dove's new canon reviewed in The Nation I'm almost afraid to ask because it sounds dangerous and unhealthy, but what is Chemical Poetry? Finnegan Can?t think of the name of the Canadian who has done some. Use of chemical diagrams of chemicals (can?t think now what they are called) and/or chemical equations describing chemical reactions. A periodic chart could have interesting poetic use, too. I should think it could do many of the things I think my mathematical poetry does in a related but different way?and possible has in the work of the guy I?m thinking, the Canadian?most well known for sound poetry. I?m not keen on his work except for one chemical poem of his I can?t remember, but he should be in Dove?s anthology. I think if a list of schools of poetry that included visual and mathematical poetry were around, with each school adequately described, the potential of a mix of chemistry and poetry would be immediately