From obodooha at gmail.com Tue Feb 1 02:39:07 2011 From: obodooha at gmail.com (Obododimma Oha) Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 23:39:07 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Failed Nation as a Lost Penis Message-ID: "Since the nation in taking away our penises also loses its own, it cannot father progress; cannot guarantee freedom; cannot ensure the respect of the Nigerian within or outside its territory. The policy of ?penislessness? considers those who try to grow their penises back dangerous. If you do not know what it means to try to grow your penis back, then start writing and publishing articles that criticize the government of Nigeria; start playing Tai Solarin and Gani Fawehinmi; start drawing attention to the implications of the Sudanese plebiscite for Nigeria; start calling on Nigerians to think for themselves instead of waiting for those in government to do so." Read the full text of "A Failed Nation as a Lost Penis" at: http://234next.com/csp/cms/sites/Next/Home/5670606-182/story.csp -- *Obododimma Oha* http://udude.wordpress.com/ (*Associate Professor of Cultural Semiotics & Stylistics*) Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & *Fellow*, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604; +234 808 264 8060. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Tue Feb 1 06:19:14 2011 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Tue, 1 Feb 2011 03:19:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Solution to Mathemaku In-Reply-To: <4D45D760.6060505@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CD8E1BF0112952-17CC-DA84@webmail-d068.sysops.aol.com> <4D454B0B.8050905@nut-n-but.net><8CD8EBF8DCF639E-12F4-14797@webma il-m009.sysops.aol.com><8CD8ECA4E80F706-12F4-15632@webmail-m009.sysops.aol.com><823922.66958.qm@web35505.mail.mud.yahoo.com><4D 45C082.9080400@nut-n-but.net><4D45CBB7.5010209@nut-n-but.net> <532328.41170.qm@web35503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4D45D760.6060505@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <334439.91176.qm@web35505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> My pleasure, Bob! Nice to hear about all this: apparently, I was missing less than I thought I was. The implications in regard to the esthetic of the haiku are rather interesting,?in a sense these are anti-haiku, since they figure the concrete and the real in terms of abstract relationships, rather than highlighting the "this happened, this was here" perspective at work in?haiku. Or perhaps I'm off the mark entirely.... Amicalement, Alex ? www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ________________________________ From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sun, January 30, 2011 10:25:52 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Solution to Mathemaku On 1/30/2011 3:48 PM, Alexander Dickow wrote: I wonder,?Bob, if you might demonstrate how one of your mathemaku works? I'm not at all familiar with the reading protocols; I've been known to indulge in rebuses, logic puzzles?and the like, but I'm not so sure that's the right tack. I know, I know, we should read Manywhere at Once etc.,?and I?intend to (perhaps post-dissertation), but in the meantime, I'd love to hear about it spontaneously, as it were.... >Amicalement, >Alex >Alas, I'm always too ready to explain my poems, Alex.? I ofter say I compose >them only so as to have the pleasure of explaining them.? I hope that's not >entirely true. Anyway, someone else beat you to request my help, so I can quickly repeat the lesson I then gave.? I hope it helps. Each poem (of the four at Tip of the Knife is to be taken as a long division example except without the numbers you'd normally see in such examples.? Just keep in mind how long division works (and when I started making these things, I often got mixed up about that).? A good idea is to just do one, such as ????????????????????? 3 ????????????????? 2 )7 ?????????????????????? 6 ?????????????????????? 1 ? 2 into 7 gives 3 with a remainder of 1.? So in my winter poem, "meadow" into "winter" gives negative "science/scilence" with a remainder of negative "little lame balloonman."? The basic idea is the use of some arithmetical operation as a metaphor, so I have "science/scilence" times "meadow" equals "13 5 1 4 15 23," which is a cryptogram for . . . write back if you can't figure it out, but when I tell you what it is, you'll be upset with yourself!? In my first long division poem I had the much simpler "rain" times "park" equals "flowers" or something along those lines.? In my winter poem "13 5 1 4 15 23" plus the remainder, "little lame balloonman" equals "winter."? The balloonman is from E. E. Cummings's poem, "in Just-spring." One other math detail is that I use the absolute value of "science/scilence," which means that what's between the two vertical lines must be positive in value.? Hence, because outside the verticals is a minus sign, the whole thing has to be negative, the idea being that winter is the negative season, summer the positive season.? I like the connotations of absoluteness, too.? A central idea of these poems is the tensions between the extreme abstractness of math and the concreteness of things like winter and spring, and poetry.? Oh, and part of the idea of "13 5 1 4 15 23" is the suggestion of winter as a thing of numbers or without flesh. I hope you can now navigate the other three poems in the set.? I think the only extras in them are Cummingsesque visual effects. Thanks for showing some interest in my gadgets! all best, Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Feb 1 12:50:03 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 12:50:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Solution to Mathemaku In-Reply-To: <334439.91176.qm@web35505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <8CD8E1BF0112952-17CC-DA84@webmail-d068.sysops.aol.com> <4D454B0B.8050905@nut-n-but.net><8CD8EBF8DCF639E-12F4-14797@webma il-m009.sysops.aol.com><8CD8ECA4E80F706-12F4-15632@webmail-m009.sysops.aol.com><823922.66958.qm@web35505.mail.mud.yahoo.com><4D 45C082.9080400@nut-n-but.net><4D45CBB7.5010209@nut-n-but.net><532 328.41170.qm@web35503.mail.mud.yahoo.com><4D45D760.6060505@nut-n-but.net> <334439.91176.qm@web35505.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D4847CB.1000806@nut-n-but.net> On 2/1/2011 6:19 AM, Alexander Dickow wrote: > My pleasure, Bob! Nice to hear about all this: apparently, I was > missing less than I thought I was. The implications in regard to the > esthetic of the haiku are rather interesting, in a sense these are > anti-haiku, since they figure the concrete and the real in terms of > abstract relationships, rather than highlighting the "this happened, > this was here" perspective at work in haiku. Or perhaps I'm off the > mark entirely.... > Amicalement, > Alex . I think you have the gist of what my mathemaku do. I also consider them half anti-haiku (the mathematical part) and half haiku--the focus, usually, on a single image or image-complex that's suppose to generate continuing thoughts. People involved with haiku have long argued about whether a haiku can have abstract material and/or metaphorical material, as my mathemaku do (and the shorter ones like the ones at /Tip of the Knife /I do consider haiku). Traditionalists say no, but examples of metaphor are not uncommon in Basho's haiku and other classical haiku, and I believe most of the best haiku are implicitly metaphorical. Some deal with abstractions, too. But my mathemaku have few if any abstractions as /subject/ matter, only as operators. Anyway, thanks for thinking into my mathemaku and letting me know a bit about what resulted. all best, Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Tue Feb 1 15:19:38 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 15:19:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] I IS AN OTHER: The Secret Life of Metaphor and How It Shapes the Way We See the World Message-ID: <8CD90647C7446CB-104-1686@webmail-d008.sysops.aol.com> In I IS AN OTHER, James Geary shows how every aspect of our lives, from the power of advertisements to the housing bubble bust to President Obama?s political rhetoric, is molded by metaphor. For lovers of language and fans of Blink and Freakonomics, James Geary?s I IS AN OTHER: The Secret Life of Metaphor and How It Shapes the Way We See the World (Harper/ HarperCollins Publishers; $19.99/$25.99 Can; ISBN 13: 9780061710285; on-sale 2/8/2011) offers a fascinating look at metaphors and their influence in every aspect of our lives, from art to medicine, psychology to the stock market. Witty, persuasive, and original, I is an Other showcases how a simple way with words, which in the past was considered only a tool for poets, is really a driving force in our society. We utter about one metaphor for every 10 to 25 words, or about six metaphors a minute. ?It is the East, and Juliet is the sun!? is one of Shakespeare?s most famous lines and one of the most well known metaphors in literature. But metaphor is much more than a mere literary device employed by love-struck poets when they refer to their girlfriends as interstellar masses of incandescent gas. In this fascinating and entertaining book, Geary demonstrates how metaphor affects financial decision-making, how metaphor lurks behind effective advertisements, how metaphor inspires learning and discovery, and how metaphor can be used as a tool to achieve emotional insight and psychological change. The book?s unusual title comes from 19th-century French poet Arthur Rimbaud, who believed that metaphor?the equation of one thing with another, completely different thing, of I with an other?was the basis not just of poetry but of all creative thought. In I Is an Other, Geary takes readers from Aristotle?s investigation of metaphor right up to the latest neuroscientific insights into how metaphor works in the brain. Along the way, he demonstrates how new research in the social and cognitive sciences makes it increasingly plain that metaphor influences our attitudes, beliefs, and actions in surprising, hidden, and often oddball ways. He details how metaphor has finally leapt off the page and landed with a mighty splash right in the middle of our stream of consciousness. James Geary is the author of the New York Times bestseller The World in a Phrase and Geary?s Guide to the World?s Great Aphorists, both of which celebrate the witty and thought-provoking art of the aphorism. Geary is editor of Ode, a magazine about optimism and positive news, and a regular contributor to Popular Science. He is the former editor of the European edition of Time, based in London. To watch Geary?s recent TED talk on metaphor, visit: http://www.ted.com/talks/james_geary_metaphorically_speaking.html. James Geary can discuss: ? Why metaphors (in the form of visual imagery) are crucial to the creation of memorable ads and successful brands ? How metaphors are used in financial commentary and how they can dramatically affect personal financial decisions ? The essential role of metaphorical thinking in business innovation ? What metaphor tells us about everything from motivating others to navigating office politics ? How metaphor can be used to form public opinion and shape political debate ? What life is like without metaphor, as experienced by some people with autism spectrum disorders, who have difficulty using and understanding figurative language I IS AN OTHER will open your eyes to the secret life of metaphor and its role in swinging elections, moving markets, and powerfully influencing daily life. I hope you will consider it for features and reviews and its author for interviews. I look forward to speaking with you soon. Best regards, Annie Weiss Assistant Publicist HarperCollinsPublishers anne.weiss at harpercollins.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Feb 1 17:15:23 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 17:15:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] I IS AN OTHER: The Secret Life of Metaphor and How ItShapes the Way We See the World In-Reply-To: <8CD90647C7446CB-104-1686@webmail-d008.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD90647C7446CB-104-1686@webmail-d008.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D4885FB.5040904@nut-n-but.net> More than a /mere /literary device, bah. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Tue Feb 1 17:13:55 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 01 Feb 2011 17:13:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] she'll put the O in poetry for NaPoMo Message-ID: <8CD9074737B068B-17C8-1C69@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com> http://gawker.com/5749033/are-you-ready-for-demi-moores-poetry Oprah Winfrey appointed Maria Shriver to guest edit a "poetry issue" of O magazine. Does the former newscaster/first lady of California have an MFA in creative writing we don't know about? And what's Demi Moore got to do with it? The April issue of O will celebrate National Poetry Month and to honor the occasion Shriver will be selecting poems from athletes, actors, writers, musicians, and poets that no one has ever heard of because most Americans can't name a single living poet other than Maya Angelou, and that's only because she was on Oprah in the first place. So who will some of these contributors be? Demi Moore and Mike Tyson, for starters. No, that isn't a joke. But regardless of who they've recruited to take part, this seems like a pretty crazy gambit. If magazines are trying to attract younger readers, is poetry really the way to do it? [Image via Getty] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Wed Feb 2 10:12:25 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 07:12:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] she'll put the O in poetry for NaPoMo In-Reply-To: <8CD9074737B068B-17C8-1C69@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD9074737B068B-17C8-1C69@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <790516.14223.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Noted on my Fbook page --- Ana & I were invited. Photographed. Was our poetry of interest? No reply. Um, the photos - just to determine our "styles". What of content? Assurances a "real writer" will be hired to write about the poets. No mention of poems, no questions of poetry. Not selected. Were we not "photogenic" enough? Our poetry - of no interest. Only how we appeared on photopaper. I CANNOT WAIT to see what poets made the cut! Many have posted replies. Some of the poets have come forward - three very lovely ones (two I know and like very much). Don't know who the other five will be. What I do know is that the initial cut seemed to be based on looks alone. I should not have expected anything else! That'll learn me! ********* VIDA: Women in Literary Arts + Interviews Amy's Alias + http://amyking.org/ ******** ________________________________ From: "jforjames at aol.com" To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tue, February 1, 2011 5:13:55 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] she'll put the O in poetry for NaPoMo http://gawker.com/5749033/are-you-ready-for-demi-moores-poetry Oprah Winfrey appointed Maria Shriver to guest edit a "poetry issue" of O magazine. Does the former newscaster/first lady of California have an MFA in creative writing we don't know about? And what's Demi Moore got to do with it? The April issue of O will celebrate National Poetry Month and to honor the occasion Shriver will be selecting poems from athletes, actors, writers, musicians, and poets that no one has ever heard of because most Americans can't name a single living poet other than Maya Angelou, and that's only because she was on Oprah in the first place. So who will some of these contributors be? Demi Moore and Mike Tyson, for starters. No, that isn't a joke. But regardless of who they've recruited to take part, this seems like a pretty crazy gambit. If magazines are trying to attract younger readers, is poetry really the way to do it? [Image via Getty] -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Wed Feb 2 10:24:04 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 07:24:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?b?VklEQeKAmVMgR09UIFRIRSBOVU1CRVJT4oCUV09N?= =?utf-8?q?EN_WRITERS_WERE_GROSSLY_UNDERREPRESENTED_IN_2010=2E?= Message-ID: <605442.92482.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> They were underrepresented in The New Yorker, where men authored 449 pieces, compared to 163 by women. And in Harper?s Magazine where men writers outnumbered women writers by nearly 3 to 1. In The New Republic, where 256 pieces were authored by men, while only 49 were written by women. And in The New York Review of Books, where men wrote 462 pieces and women 72. In Poetry Magazine and Granta and The Paris Review and The Three Penny Review and The Boston Review and Tin House? publications where male writers outnumbered their female counterparts two, three and in some cases four times over. VIDA knows, because we counted. In the last year, we?ve tallied up the numbers for many of the country?s most prestigious magazines. Now those numbers are available on our web site: http://vidaweb.org ?Our ?Count? is by no means a blame-game,? says VIDA co- founder Cate Marvin. ?It was time to stop speculating that things didn?t ?seem? entirely fair and find out whether we did in fact have reason to be concerned. The conversation only begins with the numbers.? It?s a conversation that VIDA is ready to have. A detailed breakdown of the VIDA count can be found on our web site at: http://vidaweb.org Scroll slowly. Take in the Red. http://vidaweb.org/the-count-2010 ********* VIDA: Women in Literary Arts + Interviews Amy's Alias + http://amyking.org/ ******** From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Feb 2 11:43:53 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 11:43:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?b?VklEQeKAmVMgR09UIFRIRSBOVU1CRVJT4oCUV09N?= =?utf-8?q?EN_WRITERS_WERE_GROSSLY_UNDERREPRESENTED_IN_2010=2E?= In-Reply-To: <605442.92482.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <605442.92482.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D4989C9.3010300@nut-n-but.net> The fact that male writers dominate the crap magazines does NOT mean female writers are better!!! --Bob From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 2 14:06:01 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 14:06:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] she'll put the O in poetry for NaPoMo In-Reply-To: <790516.14223.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <8CD9074737B068B-17C8-1C69@webmail-d038.sysops.aol.com> <790516.14223.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CD91235A904CBF-1770-F99@webmail-d061.sysops.aol.com> Quoting (karaoke machine on) the great Fergie in GLAMOROUS.... We flyin' first class up in the sky We flyin' first class, livin' the life In the fast lane and I won't change By the glamorous, ooh, the flossy, flossy The glamorous, the glamorous, glamorous By the glamorous, ooh, the flossy, flossy The glamorous, the glamorous, glamorous By the glamorous, ooh the flossy, flossy -----Original Message----- From: amy king To: NewPoetry List Sent: Wed, Feb 2, 2011 10:12 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] she'll put the O in poetry for NaPoMo Noted on my Fbook page --- Ana & I were invited. Photographed. Was our poetry of interest? No reply. Um, the photos - just to determine our "styles". What of content? Assurances a "real writer" will be hired to write about the poets. No mention of poems, no questions of poetry. Not selected. Were we not "photogenic" enough? Our poetry - of no interest. Only how we appeared on photopaper. I CANNOT WAIT to see what poets made the cut! Many have posted replies. Some of the poets have come forward - three very lovely ones (two I know and like very much). Don't know who the other five will be. What I do know is that the initial cut seemed to be based on looks alone. I should not have expected anything else! That'll learn me! ********* VIDA: Women in Literary Arts + Interviews Amy's Alias + http://amyking.org/ ******** From: "jforjames at aol.com" To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tue, February 1, 2011 5:13:55 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] she'll put the O in poetry for NaPoMo http://gawker.com/5749033/are-you-ready-for-demi-moores-poetry Oprah Winfrey appointed Maria Shriver to guest edit a "poetry issue" of O magazine. Does the former newscaster/first lady of California have an MFA in creative writing we don't know about? And what's Demi Moore got to do with it? The April issue of O will celebrate National Poetry Month and to honor the occasion Shriver will be selecting poems from athletes, actors, writers, musicians, and poets that no one has ever heard of because most Americans can't name a single living poet other than Maya Angelou, and that's only because she was on Oprah in the first place. So who will some of these contributors be? Demi Moore and Mike Tyson, for starters. No, that isn't a joke. But regardless of who they've recruited to take part, this seems like a pretty crazy gambit. If magazines are trying to attract younger readers, is poetry really the way to do it? [Image via Getty] _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 2 14:22:54 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 14:22:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?b?VklEQeKAmVMgR09UIFRIRSBOVU1CRVJT4oCUV09N?= =?utf-8?q?EN_WRITERS_WERE_GROSSLY_UNDERREPRESENTED_IN_2010=2E?= In-Reply-To: <605442.92482.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <605442.92482.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CD9125B9EDC0AD-1770-13C4@webmail-d061.sysops.aol.com> Kind of shocking it's that skewed. Especially when women now outnumber men among college graduates (presumably a more literate/literary segment of society). One imagines (tho I'm not certain) women would also outnumber men among the ranks of MFA graduates. Has anyone run the numbers of Poets & Writers Directory? That might be a good baseline. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: amy king To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views ; Discussion of Women's Poetry List Sent: Wed, Feb 2, 2011 10:24 am Subject: [New-Poetry] VIDA?S GOT THE NUMBERS?WOMEN WRITERS WERE GROSSLY UNDERREPRESENTED IN 2010. They were underrepresented in The New Yorker, where men authored 449 pieces, ompared to 163 by women. nd in Harper?s Magazine where men writers outnumbered women writers by nearly 3 to 1. In The New Republic, where 256 pieces were authored by men, while only 49 were ritten by women. And in The New York Review of Books, where men wrote 462 pieces and women 72. In Poetry Magazine and Granta and The Paris Review and The Three Penny Review nd The Boston Review and Tin House? publications where male writers utnumbered their female counterparts two, three and in some cases four times ver. VIDA knows, because we counted. In the last year, we?ve tallied up the numbers or many of the country?s most prestigious magazines. Now those numbers are vailable on our web site: http://vidaweb.org ?Our ?Count? is by no means a blame-game,? says VIDA co- founder Cate Marvin. It was time to stop speculating that things didn?t ?seem? entirely fair and ind out whether we did in fact have reason to be concerned. The conversation nly begins with the numbers.? It?s a conversation that VIDA is ready to have. A detailed breakdown of the VIDA count can be found on our web site at: ttp://vidaweb.org Scroll slowly. Take in the Red. http://vidaweb.org/the-count-2010 ********* IDA: Women in Literary Arts Interviews Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ ******* ______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jschickl at hotmail.com Wed Feb 2 14:24:56 2011 From: jschickl at hotmail.com (Jared Schickling) Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 12:24:56 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] she'll put the O in poetry for NaPoMo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Amy, this sucks. How infuriating. I wouldn't be surprised to discover their invitation to you and Ana B was one percent curiosity (not interest) re what you might actually have to offer -- content-wise -- and ninety-nine percent mirage, already in the know -- as if to lend the "solicitation" process the cover of legitimacy. They have the proof now in photographs. I don't see how the whitest woman in the world could invite post-Katrina of all people Dubya to the table, treat the SOB to any kind of respect, lies dribbling from his / her yapper, and in the end be anyone capable of furthering any legitimate feminist agenda. They're the same ilk. Fake as fake gets. I wonder who / what on the poetree side of things could be colluding / inspiring / soliciting / editing / paying / furthering what we can all bet will be a poetry bestseller...O don't know jack, she sits on the board... Charles Bernstein's insightful and spot-on thoughts re National Poetry Month: http://www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/044106.html It's no news (perhaps) "our" "democracy" is still "the engineering of consent." Eddie B and Uncle Sig. Enjoy it, the industrial "art." Jared -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 2 22:08:42 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 02 Feb 2011 22:08:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] More of the Best 2010 from About.com Poetry Message-ID: <8CD9166CBFCF5E2-ACC-20812@webmail-m101.sysops.aol.com> http://poetry.about.com/b/ More of the Best Poetry Books of 2010 Thursday January 27, 2011 Poetry Guide Bob Holman?s bookshelf of the best poetry books he encountered in 2010 is wide-ranging, truly various?an invitation to broaden your experience of poetry and to discover the poetry in all the corners and languages of the world, from movie screens to the dust zone of post-9/11 lower Manhattan, from bird-watching in New England to slouching down the Berkeley streets, from American hiphop to Estonian to Urdu. Last week?s installment gave you only the first 10 on Holman?s expansive list?we?ve added several more pages of books for you to explore: Sherwin Bitsui, Tom Clark, Kamau Brathwaite, Geoffrey Young, Shane Book, CAConrad and Frank Sherlock, Max Blagg, Jack Wiler, Tan Lin... Mahogany Browne, Ken Cormier, Alan Herman, Patricia Spears Jones, Gary Parrish, Edwin Torres, Afzal Ahmed Syed, Damien Rogers, Emily Dickinson... Charles Bernstein, Aharon Shabtai, Bill Morgan and Christine Timm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Feb 3 06:21:56 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 06:21:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] More of the Best 2010 from About.com Poetry In-Reply-To: <8CD9166CBFCF5E2-ACC-20812@webmail-m101.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD9166CBFCF5E2-ACC-20812@webmail-m101.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D4A8FD4.1040009@nut-n-but.net> Best books he /encountered/?! None of the other listers so far think they've failed to encounter anything of value (as far as I know). To be a proper lister, you have to assume you're too on top of things not to have read every worthwhile poetry collection published during the year. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Feb 3 09:53:23 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 09:53:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lisa Jarnot returns to Buffalo for Big Night Message-ID: <8CD91C93D5D3A17-718-B490@webmail-d052.sysops.aol.com> http://blogs.buffalonews.com/gusto/2011/01/lisa-jarnot-returns-for-big-night.html Born in Buffalo in 1967, those early years were spent with her family in the Southtowns, where Jarnot spent every Saturday and much of her summers reading voraciously at the Angola Public Library, and as a pre-adolescent and teen, adopting a number of quixotic role models: Abraham Lincoln, Rolling Stones guitarist Keith Richards, and perhaps most totemically, Bob Dylan. "It was around this time that I began wearing a harmonica holder around my neck, even to the grocery store, and it was around this time that I began to write poems," Jarnot recalls. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Feb 3 13:37:01 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 10:37:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Esque it, AWP! Message-ID: <933740.78961.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Swilling martinis at the hotel bar? Waiting for your lecture to begin? Computer & Handheld-ready ESQUE awaits! ESQUE -- http://www.esquemag.com WORK by Ammiel Alcalay -- Kazim Ali -- Rae Armantrout -- Louis Asekoff -- Wendy Babiak -- Aaron Belz -- Caroline Bergvall -- Julia Bloch -- Julian Brolaski -- Sommer Browning -- Julia Cohen -- Ryan Doyle May -- Elisa Gabbert -- Alan Gilbert -- E. Tracy Grinnell -- Marilyn Hacker -- Bob Hicok -- Fanny Howe -- Mohsen Jabbari -- Bhanu Kapil -- Farid Matuk -- Shane McCrae -- Zeljko Mitic -- Daniel Nester -- Kiwao Nomura (trans. Kyoko Yoshida & Forrest Gander) -- Vanessa Place -- Khadijah Queen -- Matt Rotando -- Metta Sama -- Nathaniel Siegel -- Juliana Spahr & Stephanie Young -- Sampson Starkweather & Dan Boehl -- Brian Teare FEATURES * Fancy red scroll buttons! * You CHOOSE the genre of each piece! * Fashion photography! * Comes with VOICE activation! * PRINT the entire contents by pdf for teaching or trading! Love, Amy & Ana Your Editors http://www.esquemag.com ********* Amy's Alias + http://amyking.org/ ******** From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Feb 3 13:37:33 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 10:37:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Esque it, AWP! Message-ID: <796349.75224.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Swilling martinis at the hotel bar? Waiting for your lecture to begin? Computer & Handheld-ready ESQUE awaits! ESQUE -- http://www.esquemag.com WORK by Ammiel Alcalay -- Kazim Ali -- Rae Armantrout -- Louis Asekoff -- Wendy Babiak -- Aaron Belz -- Caroline Bergvall -- Julia Bloch -- Julian Brolaski -- Sommer Browning -- Julia Cohen -- Ryan Doyle May -- Elisa Gabbert -- Alan Gilbert -- E. Tracy Grinnell -- Marilyn Hacker -- Bob Hicok -- Fanny Howe -- Mohsen Jabbari -- Bhanu Kapil -- Farid Matuk -- Shane McCrae -- Zeljko Mitic -- Daniel Nester -- Kiwao Nomura (trans. Kyoko Yoshida & Forrest Gander) -- Vanessa Place -- Khadijah Queen -- Matt Rotando -- Metta Sama -- Nathaniel Siegel -- Juliana Spahr & Stephanie Young -- Sampson Starkweather & Dan Boehl -- Brian Teare FEATURES * Fancy red scroll buttons! * You CHOOSE the genre of each piece! * Fashion photography! * Comes with VOICE activation! * PRINT the entire contents by pdf for teaching or trading! Love, Amy & Ana Your Editors http://www.esquemag.com ********* Amy's Alias + http://amyking.org/ ******** From jforjames at aol.com Thu Feb 3 17:48:32 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 17:48:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nin Andrews AWP comix Message-ID: <8CD920B9E0843A6-1184-2E690@Webmail-m108.sysops.aol.com> For those of not at AWP, these might amuse... http://blog.bestamericanpoetry.com/the_best_american_poetry/2011/02/i-wish-more-awp-comics-by-nin-andrews.html#tp http://blog.bestamericanpoetry.com/the_best_american_poetry/2011/02/why-are-you-afraid-awp-comics-continued-by-nin-andrews.html http://blog.bestamericanpoetry.com/the_best_american_poetry/2011/02/omg-more-awp-comics-by-nin-andrews.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Feb 3 19:55:52 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 19:55:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nin Andrews AWP comix In-Reply-To: <8CD920B9E0843A6-1184-2E690@Webmail-m108.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD920B9E0843A6-1184-2E690@Webmail-m108.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D4B4E98.8080101@nut-n-but.net> On 2/3/2011 5:48 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: > For those of not at AWP, these might amuse... > http://blog.bestamericanpoetry.com/the_best_american_poetry/2011/02/i-wish-more-awp-comics-by-nin-andrews.html#tp > http://blog.bestamericanpoetry.com/the_best_american_poetry/2011/02/why-are-you-afraid-awp-comics-continued-by-nin-andrews.html > http://blog.bestamericanpoetry.com/the_best_american_poetry/2011/02/omg-more-awp-comics-by-nin-andrews.html Once at the Best American Poetry site, I posted the following snide comment: "It seems to me that a Worst American Poetry series would be beneficial--composing a kind of poetry ignored by the editors of the Best American Poetry series is not anywhere enough of an affirmation." --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Feb 3 20:32:35 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 20:32:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Michael McClure New & Selected Message-ID: <8CD922288DC2CCC-14C0-304F@webmail-m067.sysops.aol.com> http://www.ucpress.edu/book.php?isbn=9780520262874 http://compassrosebooks.blogspot.com/2011/02/we-might-be-lions-michael-mcclures-new.html Michael McClure [1932- ] is, along with Lawrence Ferlinghetti and Gary Snyder, the last of the surviving members of the original Beat crew which read (or was present) at the Six Gallery in 1955. His literary credentials have always been immaculate. Coming from Kansas in early youth to the San Francisco Bay Area, he has remained a towering figure of creative energy. Though primarily a poet, he's also made huge contributions towards avant garde theater, and has been involved in art, popular music and film. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Feb 3 21:12:48 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 03 Feb 2011 21:12:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Eminem becoming a force in the literary world Message-ID: <8CD9228273F5E4A-11E4-11A7B@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> http://www.usatoday.com/life/music/news/2011-02-04-eminembard04_ST_N.htm The Detroit rapper, who has sold more albums than anyone in the past decade, has a vast following of disaffected suburban youth drawn to his rage, sarcasm and bitter humor. His posse of admirers also boasts an unlikely elite circle of heavy hitters from the book world. Seriously. Among them: Nobel laureate Seamus Heaney. Famous for retelling that medieval dragon drama Beowulf, the Irish poet, 71, declared in 2003 that Eminem "created a sense of what is possible. He has sent a voltage around a generation. He has done this not just through his subversive attitude but also his verbal energy." = -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Feb 3 23:23:07 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 3 Feb 2011 20:23:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Articles in Response - Women and Publishing In-Reply-To: References: <933740.78961.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <30431.62038.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Articles (& comments' sections filled with debate), so far, on The Count (http://vidaweb.org/category/the-count ) -- 1.) Bitch Magazine - http://bitchmagazine.org/post/women-in-publishing 2.) The Hairpin - http://thehairpin.com/2011/02/women-get-published-and-reviewed-less-than-men-in-big-magazines-say-red-and-blue-pie-charts/ 3.) Jezebel - http://jezebel.com/5750239/the-sorry-state-of-women-at-top-magazines 4.) Poetry Foundation - http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2011/02/the-vida-count-for-2010 5.) The Rumpus - http://therumpus.net/2011/02/women-in-publishing/ 6.) Double X - http://www.doublex.com/blog/xxfactor/why-it-matters-fewer-women-are-published-literary-magazines 7.) Slate - http://www.slate.com/id/2283605/ 8.) Women and Hollywood - http://blogs.indiewire.com/womenandhollywood/archives/the_numbers_speak_for_themselves/ ********* VIDA: Women in Literary Arts + Interviews Amy's Alias + http://amyking.org/ ******** From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Feb 4 06:54:59 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 06:54:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Eminem becoming a force in the literary world In-Reply-To: <8CD9228273F5E4A-11E4-11A7B@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD9228273F5E4A-11E4-11A7B@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D4BE913.8010407@nut-n-but.net> On 2/3/2011 9:12 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: > http://www.usatoday.com/life/music/news/2011-02-04-eminembard04_ST_N.htm > > The Detroit rapper, who has sold more albums than anyone in the past > decade, has a vast following of disaffected suburban youth drawn to > his rage, sarcasm and bitter humor. His posse of admirers also boasts > an unlikely elite circle of heavy hitters from the book world. Seriously. > Among them: > Nobel laureate Seamus Heaney. Famous for retelling that medieval > dragon drama Beowulf, the Irish poet, 71, declared in 2003 that Eminem > "created a sense of what is possible. He has sent a voltage around a > generation. He has done this not just through his subversive attitude > but also his verbal energy." > This inspired a new coinage: "sigliture," for significant literature. The adjective would be "siglerary." Distinguished from "literary" because not including people like Eminem . . . and Nobel Prize Winners. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Feb 4 08:52:34 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 04 Feb 2011 08:52:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Eminem becoming a force in the literary world In-Reply-To: <4D4BE913.8010407@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CD9228273F5E4A-11E4-11A7B@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> <4D4BE913.8010407@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4D4C04A2.7010206@nut-n-but.net> On 2/4/2011 6:54 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > On 2/3/2011 9:12 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: >> http://www.usatoday.com/life/music/news/2011-02-04-eminembard04_ST_N.htm >> >> The Detroit rapper, who has sold more albums than anyone in the past >> decade, has a vast following of disaffected suburban youth drawn to >> his rage, sarcasm and bitter humor. His posse of admirers also boasts >> an unlikely elite circle of heavy hitters from the book world. Seriously. >> Among them: >> Nobel laureate Seamus Heaney. Famous for retelling that medieval >> dragon drama Beowulf, the Irish poet, 71, declared in 2003 that >> Eminem "created a sense of what is possible. He has sent a voltage >> around a generation. He has done this not just through his subversive >> attitude but also his verbal energy." >> > > > This inspired a new coinage: "sigliture," for significant literature. > The adjective would be "siglerary." Distinguished from "literary" > because not including people like Eminem . . . and Nobel Prize Winners. Make that "signifliture" and "signiflerary." --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Feb 4 08:46:57 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 4 Feb 2011 14:46:57 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Eminem becoming a force in the literary world In-Reply-To: <4D4BE913.8010407@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CD9228273F5E4A-11E4-11A7B@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> <4D4BE913.8010407@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: I have just watched a couple by Eminem on YouTube. The movie was not bad, but these videos are quite depressing. What would SHeaney do to sell a couple of books. _Or maybe he was referring to the movie. On Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 12:54 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > On 2/3/2011 9:12 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: > > http://www.usatoday.com/life/music/news/2011-02-04-eminembard04_ST_N.htm > > The Detroit rapper, who has sold more albums than anyone in the past > decade, has a vast following of disaffected suburban youth drawn to his > rage, sarcasm and bitter humor. His posse of admirers also boasts an > unlikely elite circle of heavy hitters from the book world. Seriously. > > Among them: > > Nobel laureate Seamus Heaney. Famous for retelling that medieval dragon > drama Beowulf, the Irish poet, 71, declared in 2003 that Eminem "created a > sense of what is possible. He has sent a voltage around a generation. He has > done this not just through his subversive attitude but also his verbal > energy." > > > > > This inspired a new coinage: "sigliture," for significant literature. The > adjective would be "siglerary." Distinguished from "literary" because not > including people like Eminem . . . and Nobel Prize Winners. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Feb 5 01:53:38 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2011 07:53:38 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?windows-1252?q?VIDA=92S_GOT_THE_NUMBERS=97WOMEN_WR?= =?windows-1252?q?ITERS_WERE_GROSSLY_UNDERREPRESENTED_IN_2010=2E?= In-Reply-To: <8CD9125B9EDC0AD-1770-13C4@webmail-d061.sysops.aol.com> References: <605442.92482.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CD9125B9EDC0AD-1770-13C4@webmail-d061.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I can easily state that in Italy the faculties of Humanities are crowded with women, and probably a ten per cent (but I am extremely large, my initial idea was to type 2-3%) male presence. I guess that women will end up being secretaries of men who write for everybody, if these are the figures. On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 8:22 PM, wrote: > Kind of shocking it's that skewed. Especially when women now outnumber > men among college graduates (presumably a more literate/literary segment of > society). One imagines (tho I'm not certain) women would also outnumber men > among the ranks of MFA graduates. > > Has anyone run the numbers of Poets & Writers Directory? That might be a > good baseline. > > Finnegan > -----Original Message----- > From: amy king > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>; Discussion of Women's Poetry List < > WOM-PO at LISTS.ncc.edu> > Sent: Wed, Feb 2, 2011 10:24 am > Subject: [New-Poetry] VIDA?S GOT THE NUMBERS?WOMEN WRITERS WERE GROSSLY > UNDERREPRESENTED IN 2010. > > They were underrepresented in The New Yorker, where men authored 449 pieces, > compared to 163 by women. > > > And in Harper?s Magazine where men writers outnumbered women writers by nearly 3 > > to 1. > > In The New Republic, where 256 pieces were authored by men, while only 49 were > written by women. > > And in The New York Review of Books, where men wrote 462 pieces and women 72. > > In Poetry Magazine and Granta and The Paris Review and The Three Penny Review > and The Boston Review and Tin House? publications where male writers > outnumbered their female counterparts two, three and in some cases four times > over. > > VIDA knows, because we counted. In the last year, we?ve tallied up the numbers > for many of the country?s most prestigious magazines. Now those numbers are > available on our web site: http://vidaweb.org > > ?Our ?Count? is by no means a blame-game,? says VIDA co- founder Cate Marvin. > ?It was time to stop speculating that things didn?t ?seem? entirely fair and > find out whether we did in fact have reason to be concerned. The conversation > only begins with the numbers.? > > It?s a conversation that VIDA is ready to have. > > A detailed breakdown of the VIDA count can be found on our web site at: http://vidaweb.org > > > > Scroll slowly. Take in the Red. > http://vidaweb.org/the-count-2010 > > > > > > ********* > VIDA: Women in Literary Arts > + Interviews > > Amy's Alias > + http://amyking.org/ > ******** > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Feb 5 17:01:36 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 17:01:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?b?VklEQeKAmVMgR09UIFRIRSBOVU1CRVJT4oCUV09N?= =?utf-8?q?EN_WR_ITERS_WERE_GROSSLY_UNDERREPRESENTED_IN_2010=2E?= In-Reply-To: References: <605442.92482.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CD9125B9EDC0AD-1770-13C4@webmail-d061.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CD9397617A3F3C-B48-29714@webmail-m042.sysops.aol.com> The recent VIDA survey has inspired/challenged me to look at how much my own reading (esp. in poetics, which I read way too much of relative to other fields) is skewed toward the boys. Yesterday I ordered books (all I've been meaning to read) by Mary Kinzie, Ann Lauterbach, Lynn Keller, Eavan Boland. I'm straining to get the keel righted. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:53 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] VIDA?S GOT THE NUMBERS?WOMEN WR ITERS WERE GROSSLY UNDERREPRESENTED IN 2010. I can easily state that in Italy the faculties of Humanities are crowded with women, and probably a ten per cent (but I am extremely large, my initial idea was to type 2-3%) male presence. I guess that women will end up being secretaries of men who write for everybody, if these are the figures. On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 8:22 PM, wrote: Kind of shocking it's that skewed. Especially when women now outnumber men among college graduates (presumably a more literate/literary segment of society). One imagines (tho I'm not certain) women would also outnumber men among the ranks of MFA graduates. Has anyone run the numbers of Poets & Writers Directory? That might be a good baseline. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: amy king To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views ; Discussion of Women's Poetry List Sent: Wed, Feb 2, 2011 10:24 am Subject: [New-Poetry] VIDA?S GOT THE NUMBERS?WOMEN WRITERS WERE GROSSLY UNDERREPRESENTED IN 2010. They were underrepresented in The New Yorker, where men authored 449 pieces, ompared to 163 by women. nd in Harper?s Magazine where men writers outnumbered women writers by nearly 3 to 1. In The New Republic, where 256 pieces were authored by men, while only 49 were ritten by women. And in The New York Review of Books, where men wrote 462 pieces and women 72. In Poetry Magazine and Granta and The Paris Review and The Three Penny Review nd The Boston Review and Tin House? publications where male writers utnumbered their female counterparts two, three and in some cases four times ver. VIDA knows, because we counted. In the last year, we?ve tallied up the numbers or many of the country?s most prestigious magazines. Now those numbers are vailable on our web site: http://vidaweb.org ?Our ?Count? is by no means a blame-game,? says VIDA co- founder Cate Marvin. It was time to stop speculating that things didn?t ?seem? entirely fair and ind out whether we did in fact have reason to be concerned. The conversation nly begins with the numbers.? It?s a conversation that VIDA is ready to have. A detailed breakdown of the VIDA count can be found on our web site at: ttp://vidaweb.org Scroll slowly. Take in the Red. http://vidaweb.org/the-count-2010 ********* IDA: Women in Literary Arts Interviews Amy's Alias http://amyking.org/ ******* ______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tichaona at inthewhirlwind.com Sat Feb 5 17:12:58 2011 From: tichaona at inthewhirlwind.com (Tichaona Chinyelu) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 15:12:58 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] I Represent (A Poem) Message-ID: <20110205151258.06739fca92e8a33e1cdb4ae2881c2177.a49b201212.wbe@email01.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Feb 5 18:17:24 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2011 18:17:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Studio 360 Message-ID: <8CD93A1FB47510C-B48-2A15C@webmail-m042.sysops.aol.com> Two poets (one from Egypt and Kevin Young), John Steinbeck and his dog hit the road from Sag Harbor, and very good movie about young woman trying to save the family homestead set against meth trade in southern Missouri... http://www.studio360.org/2011/feb/04/ Tamim al-Barghouti: Poet of the Revolution The ongoing protests in Egypt are sparking more then just political and social unrest; the events in Tahrir Square are also inspiring new cultural creations. Egyptian poet and Georgetown University Visiting Professor Tamim al-Barghouti wrote a poem about the protests ? roughly translated ?Oh Egypt, It?s Close." Poet Kevin Young usually tackles themes we can all relate to - family drama, losing a friend, food. He shifts course with his new book, a historical epic poem about the Amistad slave rebellion. In the fall of 1960, the writer John Steinbeck climbed into a camper truck and set out to explore America. Now producer John Biewen is following in his footsteps, revisiting some key stops on Steinbeck?s route to look at how America has changed = -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 6 02:05:58 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 08:05:58 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: |mILTON bABBITT In-Reply-To: <6293598813063693.WA.michaelpeverettlive.co.uk@jiscmail.ac.uk> References: <6293598813063693.WA.michaelpeverettlive.co.uk@jiscmail.ac.uk> Message-ID: Forwarded by Michael Peverett. Interesting to contrast the poetry-world response to Milton Babbitt's passing with its response to Cpt Beefheart's - indicator perhaps of how far "high-art" avant-garde scenes have become isolated from each other. And I don't really know anything about Babbitt's music, except the concept of "total serialism". Even so, I couldn't help but love the Bad Plus playing "Semi-Simple Variations" (link), even if this is Babbitt Lite. Check it out! http://www.therestisnoise.com/2011/01/for-milton-babbitt.html -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 6 08:25:43 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 14:25:43 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?windows-1252?q?VIDA=92S_GOT_THE_NUMBERS=97WOMEN_WR?= =?windows-1252?q?_ITERS_WERE_GROSSLY_UNDERREPRESENTED_IN_2010=2E?= In-Reply-To: <8CD9397617A3F3C-B48-29714@webmail-m042.sysops.aol.com> References: <605442.92482.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CD9125B9EDC0AD-1770-13C4@webmail-d061.sysops.aol.com> <8CD9397617A3F3C-B48-29714@webmail-m042.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Here's a Man. On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 11:01 PM, wrote: > The recent VIDA survey has inspired/challenged me to look at how much my > own reading (esp. in poetics, which I read way too much of relative to other > fields) is skewed toward the boys. Yesterday I ordered books (all I've been > meaning to read) by Mary Kinzie, Ann Lauterbach, Lynn Keller, Eavan Boland. > I'm straining to get the keel righted. > > Finnegan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anny Ballardini > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:53 am > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] VIDA?S GOT THE NUMBERS?WOMEN WR ITERS WERE > GROSSLY UNDERREPRESENTED IN 2010. > > I can easily state that in Italy the faculties of Humanities are crowded > with women, and probably a ten per cent (but I am extremely large, my > initial idea was to type 2-3%) male presence. I guess that women will end up > being secretaries of men who write for everybody, if these are the figures. > > > On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 8:22 PM, wrote: > >> Kind of shocking it's that skewed. Especially when women now outnumber >> men among college graduates (presumably a more literate/literary segment of >> society). One imagines (tho I'm not certain) women would also outnumber men >> among the ranks of MFA graduates. >> >> Has anyone run the numbers of Poets & Writers Directory? That might be a >> good baseline. >> >> Finnegan >> -----Original Message----- >> From: amy king >> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views < >> new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu>; Discussion of Women's Poetry List < >> WOM-PO at LISTS.ncc.edu> >> Sent: Wed, Feb 2, 2011 10:24 am >> Subject: [New-Poetry] VIDA?S GOT THE NUMBERS?WOMEN WRITERS WERE GROSSLY >> UNDERREPRESENTED IN 2010. >> >> They were underrepresented in The New Yorker, where men authored 449 pieces, >> compared to 163 by women. >> >> >> And in Harper?s Magazine where men writers outnumbered women writers by nearly 3 >> >> to 1. >> >> In The New Republic, where 256 pieces were authored by men, while only 49 were >> written by women. >> >> And in The New York Review of Books, where men wrote 462 pieces and women 72. >> >> In Poetry Magazine and Granta and The Paris Review and The Three Penny Review >> and The Boston Review and Tin House? publications where male writers >> outnumbered their female counterparts two, three and in some cases four times >> over. >> >> VIDA knows, because we counted. In the last year, we?ve tallied up the numbers >> for many of the country?s most prestigious magazines. Now those numbers are >> available on our web site: http://vidaweb.org >> >> ?Our ?Count? is by no means a blame-game,? says VIDA co- founder Cate Marvin. >> ?It was time to stop speculating that things didn?t ?seem? entirely fair and >> find out whether we did in fact have reason to be concerned. The conversation >> only begins with the numbers.? >> >> It?s a conversation that VIDA is ready to have. >> >> A detailed breakdown of the VIDA count can be found on our web site at: http://vidaweb.org >> >> >> >> Scroll slowly. Take in the Red. >> http://vidaweb.org/the-count-2010 >> >> >> >> >> >> ********* >> VIDA: Women in Literary Arts >> + Interviews >> >> Amy's Alias >> + http://amyking.org/ >> ******** >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Sun Feb 6 08:28:06 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 13:28:06 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?windows-1252?q?VIDA=92S_GOT_THE_NUMBERS=97WOMEN_WR?= =?windows-1252?q?_ITERS_WERE_GROSSLY_UNDERREPRESENTED_IN_2010=2E?= In-Reply-To: References: <605442.92482.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>, <8CD9125B9EDC0AD-1770-13C4@webmail-d061.sysops.aol.com>, , <8CD9397617A3F3C-B48-29714@webmail-m042.sysops.aol.com>, Message-ID: Kudos Finnegan!!!! Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 14:25:43 +0100 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] VIDA?S GOT THE NUMBERS?WOMEN WR ITERS WERE GROSSLY UNDERREPRESENTED IN 2010. Here's a Man. On Sat, Feb 5, 2011 at 11:01 PM, wrote: The recent VIDA survey has inspired/challenged me to look at how much my own reading (esp. in poetics, which I read way too much of relative to other fields) is skewed toward the boys. Yesterday I ordered books (all I've been meaning to read) by Mary Kinzie, Ann Lauterbach, Lynn Keller, Eavan Boland. I'm straining to get the keel righted. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:53 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] VIDA?S GOT THE NUMBERS?WOMEN WR ITERS WERE GROSSLY UNDERREPRESENTED IN 2010. I can easily state that in Italy the faculties of Humanities are crowded with women, and probably a ten per cent (but I am extremely large, my initial idea was to type 2-3%) male presence. I guess that women will end up being secretaries of men who write for everybody, if these are the figures. On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 8:22 PM, wrote: Kind of shocking it's that skewed. Especially when women now outnumber men among college graduates (presumably a more literate/literary segment of society). One imagines (tho I'm not certain) women would also outnumber men among the ranks of MFA graduates. Has anyone run the numbers of Poets & Writers Directory? That might be a good baseline. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: amy king To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views ; Discussion of Women's Poetry List Sent: Wed, Feb 2, 2011 10:24 am Subject: [New-Poetry] VIDA?S GOT THE NUMBERS?WOMEN WRITERS WERE GROSSLY UNDERREPRESENTED IN 2010. They were underrepresented in The New Yorker, where men authored 449 pieces, compared to 163 by women. And in Harper?s Magazine where men writers outnumbered women writers by nearly 3 to 1. In The New Republic, where 256 pieces were authored by men, while only 49 were written by women. And in The New York Review of Books, where men wrote 462 pieces and women 72. In Poetry Magazine and Granta and The Paris Review and The Three Penny Review and The Boston Review and Tin House? publications where male writers outnumbered their female counterparts two, three and in some cases four times over. VIDA knows, because we counted. In the last year, we?ve tallied up the numbers for many of the country?s most prestigious magazines. Now those numbers are available on our web site: http://vidaweb.org ?Our ?Count? is by no means a blame-game,? says VIDA co- founder Cate Marvin. ?It was time to stop speculating that things didn?t ?seem? entirely fair and find out whether we did in fact have reason to be concerned. The conversation only begins with the numbers.? It?s a conversation that VIDA is ready to have. A detailed breakdown of the VIDA count can be found on our web site at: http://vidaweb.org Scroll slowly. Take in the Red. http://vidaweb.org/the-count-2010 ********* VIDA: Women in Literary Arts + Interviews Amy's Alias + http://amyking.org/ ******** _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Feb 6 09:43:26 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 09:43:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?windows-1252?q?VIDA=92S_GOT_THE_NUMBERS=97WOMEN_WR?= =?windows-1252?q?=3D=3Fwindows-1252=3Fq=3F=5FITERS=5FWERE=5FGROSSLY=5FUND?= =?windows-1252?q?ERREPRESENTED=5FIN=5F201_0=3D2E=3F=3D?= In-Reply-To: References: <605442.92482.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CD9125B9EDC0AD-1770-13C4@webmail-d061.sysops.aol.com><8CD9397617A3F3C-B48-29714@webmail-m042.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D4EB38E.5020703@nut-n-but.net> On 2/6/2011 8:25 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Here's a Man. I'm afraid I'd have to ask why it's taken him so long to mend his way, Anny. I've always made sure to make sure exactly fifty percent of the books I read are by women. --Bob From amyhappens at yahoo.com Sun Feb 6 10:26:02 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 07:26:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?b?VklEQeKAmVMgR09UIFRIRSBOVU1CRVJT4oCUV09N?= =?utf-8?q?EN_WR=3D=3Fwindows-1252=3Fq=3F=5FITERS=5FWERE=5FGROSSLY=5FUNDER?= =?utf-8?q?REPRESENTED=5FIN=5F201_0=3D2E=3F=3D?= In-Reply-To: <4D4EB38E.5020703@nut-n-but.net> References: <605442.92482.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CD9125B9EDC0AD-1770-13C4@webmail-d061.sysops.aol.com><8CD9397617A3F3C-B48-29714@webmail-m042.sysops.aol.com> <4D4EB38E.5020703@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <636702.12367.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> You are a noble, sincere critter, Bob. I love the way you're always talking about and promoting the women's poetry you read. Love, Me ********* VIDA: Women in Literary Arts + Interviews Amy's Alias + http://amyking.org/ ******** ----- Original Message ---- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sun, February 6, 2011 9:43:26 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] VIDA?S GOT THE NUMBERS?WOMEN WR=?windows-1252?q?_ITERS_WERE_GROSSLY_UNDERREPRESENTED_IN_201 0=2E?= On 2/6/2011 8:25 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Here's a Man. I'm afraid I'd have to ask why it's taken him so long to mend his way, Anny. I've always made sure to make sure exactly fifty percent of the books I read are by women. --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From amyhappens at yahoo.com Sun Feb 6 10:26:53 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 07:26:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?b?VklEQeKAmVMgR09UIFRIRSBOVU1CRVJT4oCUV09N?= =?utf-8?q?EN_WR_ITERS_WERE_GROSSLY_UNDERREPRESENTED_IN_2010=2E?= In-Reply-To: <8CD9397617A3F3C-B48-29714@webmail-m042.sysops.aol.com> References: <605442.92482.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CD9125B9EDC0AD-1770-13C4@webmail-d061.sysops.aol.com> <8CD9397617A3F3C-B48-29714@webmail-m042.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <691375.9484.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Now I have to go find out who two of those poets you named are, Jim! ********* VIDA: Women in Literary Arts + Interviews Amy's Alias + http://amyking.org/ ******** ________________________________ From: "jforjames at aol.com" To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sat, February 5, 2011 5:01:36 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] VIDA?S GOT THE NUMBERS?WOMEN WR ITERS WERE GROSSLY UNDERREPRESENTED IN 2010. The recent VIDA survey has inspired/challenged me to look at how much my own reading (esp. in poetics, which I read way too much of relative to other fields) is skewed toward the boys. Yesterday I ordered books (all I've been meaning to read) by Mary Kinzie, Ann Lauterbach, Lynn Keller, Eavan Boland. I'm straining to get the keel righted. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sat, Feb 5, 2011 1:53 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] VIDA?S GOT THE NUMBERS?WOMEN WR ITERS WERE GROSSLY UNDERREPRESENTED IN 2010. I can easily state that in Italy the faculties of Humanities are crowded with women, and probably a ten per cent (but I am extremely large, my initial idea was to type 2-3%) male presence. I guess that women will end up being secretaries of men who write for everybody, if these are the figures. On Wed, Feb 2, 2011 at 8:22 PM, wrote: Kind of shocking it's that skewed. Especially when women now outnumber men among college graduates (presumably a more literate/literary segment of society). One imagines (tho I'm not certain) women would also outnumber men among the ranks of MFA graduates. > >Has anyone run the numbers of Poets & Writers Directory? That might be a good >baseline. > >Finnegan > >-----Original Message----- >From: amy king >To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views ; >Discussion of Women's Poetry List >Sent: Wed, Feb 2, 2011 10:24 am >Subject: [New-Poetry] VIDA?S GOT THE NUMBERS?WOMEN WRITERS WERE GROSSLY >UNDERREPRESENTED IN 2010. > > >They were underrepresented in The New Yorker, where men authored 449 pieces, >compared to 163 by women. > > >And in Harper?s Magazine where men writers outnumbered women writers by nearly 3 > > >to 1. > >In The New Republic, where 256 pieces were authored by men, while only 49 were >written by women. > >And in The New York Review of Books, where men wrote 462 pieces and women 72. > >In Poetry Magazine and Granta and The Paris Review and The Three Penny Review >and The Boston Review and Tin House? publications where male writers >outnumbered their female counterparts two, three and in some cases four times >over. > >VIDA knows, because we counted. In the last year, we?ve tallied up the numbers >for many of the country?s most prestigious magazines. Now those numbers are >available on our web site: http://vidaweb.org/ > >?Our ?Count? is by no means a blame-game,? says VIDA co- founder Cate Marvin. >?It was time to stop speculating that things didn?t ?seem? entirely fair and >find out whether we did in fact have reason to be concerned. The conversation >only begins with the numbers.? > >It?s a conversation that VIDA is ready to have. > >A detailed breakdown of the VIDA count can be found on our web site at: >http://vidaweb.org Scroll slowly. Take in the Red. >http://vidaweb.org/the-count-2010 ********* VIDA: Women in Literary Arts >+ Interviews Amy's Alias + http://amyking.org/ ******** >_______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Feb 6 11:04:22 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 11:04:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?b?VklEQeKAmVMgR09UIFRIRSBOVU1CRVJT4oCUV09N?= =?utf-8?b?PT91dGYtOD9xP0VOX1dSPTNEPTNGd2luZG93cy0xMjUyPTNGcT0zRj01RklU?= =?utf-8?q?ERS=3D5FWERE=3D5FGROS_SLY=3D5FUNDER=3F=3DREPRESENTED=5FIN=5F201?= =?utf-8?b?IDA9MkU/PQ==?= In-Reply-To: <636702.12367.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <605442.92482.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><8CD9125B9EDC0AD-1770-13C4@webmail-d061.sysops.aol.com><8CD9397617A3F3C-B48-29714@webmail-m042.sysops.aol.com><4D4EB38E.5020703@nut-n-but.net> <636702.12367.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D4EC686.8010508@nut-n-but.net> On 2/6/2011 10:26 AM, amy king wrote: > You are a noble, sincere critter, Bob. I love the way you're always talking > about and promoting the women's poetry you read. > > > Love, > > Me I wish you luck in your endeavors, Amy, and admire your energy--promotion of just about any kind of poetry that isn't established (since that doesn't need promotion) is good. I'm just concerned with promoting what I perceive as the best under-recognized poetry I encounter, which is mostly by men, but includes work by K. S. Ernst, Marilyn Rosenberg, Carol Stetser, Trudy Mercer, JoAnne Growney (I shouldn't have started this because I'm sure to miss someone I should have named) and others including Betsy Franco, who is doubly under-recognized because a pluraesthetic poet and a composer of poetry for children but not, in my opinion, because she's female. I promote the only valid way one should promote anything worth promoting, by critiquing it and showing why attention should be paid to it. Check out the entry I wrote on Visual poetry for the Facts on File /Companion to 20th Century American Poetry/: I believe there I gave more space to a poem by K. S. Ernst than to anyone else's--because it was good but also because easy to use as a good, accessible example of visual poetry, not because of her gender. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 6 11:25:17 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 17:25:17 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] sent by Franz Wright on Facebook Message-ID: 2 Excerpts from old James Wright memoir/essays by Franz Wright on Sunday, February 6, 2011 at 4:44am [A passage, from the early seventies, from my father's prose that I have always loved. One, incidentally, which provides a little example of what was quite literally his photographic memory, if it is still called that. It really does exist, and there is an uncanniness about someone who, I suppose by genetic chance, possesses one. I can actually remember him saying once that he often wished he didn't remember things quite that well; but the marvelous pleasure he took in it when it came to sharing sometimes incredibly obscure poetic masterpieces with people, and the pleasure and honor of being there to listen to him, are among the best experiences of my life.] >From "The Infidel", dated June 9, 1974. Wright is intertwining, in a complex yet simple lovely way, the memory of some friends in his past, his love for them in spite of the enormous differences that might have irreparably kept them separate, then watching the reaction of some students to a short and mysterious poem recited to them by his friend, a poet from Iraq, his own reaction to it, and its no doubt inexpressibly circuitous way of reminding him of an incident from his childhood in southern Ohio during the Great Depression. *I look back over the sometimes confusing years, and I remember with affection several people who were believers. I am not myself what I would call a man of much particular faith, religious or otherwise. But it always quickens my joy in the value of life to think about my friend Father George Garrelts [*of the society of Jesuits],*with whom I spent so many happy hours in Minneapolis years ago. Most of all I remember how one evening in Saint Paul my precious beloved friend, almost my brother I might call him, Ghazi Ismail Gailini, the poet from Iraq, read in Arabic and then translated in English for some students and me a little poem from his country. I forget the name of its author. But what strikes me most sharply in my recollection of Ghazi's incomparably beautiful recitation is the almost total difference between the students' response to the poem and my own response. The students were without exception highly intelligent and attentive. And yet to them the poem seemed totally obscure, impenetrable, a poem written in a tradition so exotically oriental and foreign to them that they found it hopeless. They said that they could never understand the poem in a million years.* *To me, the poem was instantly perfectly accessible. Even as I write down these memories, the poem seems to me one of the clearest and most comprehensible poems I have ever heard or read anywhere . . . It is possible that Ghazi's poem reached out and touched, as with a kindly and understanding hand, my half-buried memory of that strange . . . hobo with the unwashed eyes, who stepped out of the sumac trees near the railroad track just above the Ohio River so long ago and shared with my friends and me a little of his time, a little of our time, some serious conversation we only partly understood, a few of our lies, a couple of our mickies [*I think, potatoes baked in the ashes of a fire], *and the social comfort of our August fire.* *Here is the poem that Ghazi translated:* As I drifted near shore In the first light of morning, I saw my country Hunched over in a blackened boat, A fire between her knees. +++ >From a passage in his notebooks headed, "Home, New York / Feb. 25, 1974", which has to do with one of the experiences of being a teacher. My father was absolute in the seriousness and gravity with which he prepared for and presented his wonderful classes, there at Hunter College in Manhattan, where he became, to his great delight and pride, a full professor of English Literature--not of creative writing, but of actual literature; and he often commented to me that he considered himself a teacher first, and a writer only second. It is my hope, by the way, that the reader will grasp in this passage what is simply an example of my dad's sense of humor and fun, odd and subtly biting as it might have been at times. It is my opinion--and that's all it is, and it is conceivable, astonishing as it may seem, I am wrong-- that he meant no disrespect to women, whom he tended to speak to and treat with a kind of old fashioned formality and reverence. Here, I think he is just joking around with a feeling a middle-aged professor can have on occasion, I suppose, a feeling of strangeness and tenderness in the company of the young, and in this case the young person happens to be a young woman, and oh the hell with it. As Mick Jagger immortally put it, Fuck em if they can't take a joke. *This afternoon, after I had lectured for an hour or so, a girl came up to me and exclaimed: "I feel so shaken! How can you go on and on so passionately about the poems of Robert Herrick? I think he's too--too pretty. I don't think I like him."* *Ears small and delicate as the inside of a monarch butterfly's wing: her nostrils seemed strong and careful enough to catch something beyond the fragrance of the sea beside Eype, Fowey, Mousehole, the whole of ancient Cornwall. I would have liked to ask her to take her shoes off and walk across the floor of that dismal classroom. I don't know how I know, but I know that her toes would have been as sure and strong as the horns of a snail.* *Anthea, Julia, Electra, why do I love Herrick?* *I don't know. Lucky, I guess.* -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Feb 6 13:47:06 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 13:47:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] subtitle: February, Sunday morning, retreiving the newpaper without putting in one's contacts (based on real event) Message-ID: <8CD94456322CC76-1298-1A7CF@webmail-m134.sysops.aol.com> Flightless Bird In that moment when you hit a patch of black ice, & the legs go up in the air, observe the feet seldom above the height of the head, the arms flailing haplessly, but there are no handholds in space for you, one so cavalier with gravity, what were you thinking, o flightless bird??thud. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 6 14:24:01 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 20:24:01 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] subtitle: February, Sunday morning, retreiving the newpaper without putting in one's contacts (based on real event) In-Reply-To: <8CD94456322CC76-1298-1A7CF@webmail-m134.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD94456322CC76-1298-1A7CF@webmail-m134.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: That hurts - out of experience. On Sun, Feb 6, 2011 at 7:47 PM, wrote: > Flightless Bird > > > In that moment > when you hit a patch > of black ice, & > the legs go up > in the air, observe > the feet seldom > above the height > of the head, the arms > flailing haplessly, > but there are no > handholds in space > for you, one so > cavalier with > gravity, what were > you thinking, o > flightless bird??thud. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Feb 6 16:13:13 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 16:13:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] James Wright poem apropos to Sunday Super Bowl XLV Message-ID: <8CD9459CC582612-1298-1C3E5@webmail-m134.sysops.aol.com> Autumn Begins in Martins Ferry, Ohio In the Shreve High football stadium, I think of Polacks nursing long beers in Tiltonsville, And gray faces of Negroes in the blast furnace at Benwood, And the ruptured night watchman of Wheeling Steel, Dreaming of heroes. All the proud fathers are ashamed to go home. Their women cluck like starved pullets, Dying for love. Therefore, Their sons grow suicidally beautiful At the beginning of October, And gallop terribly against each other's bodies. by James Wright -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com Sun Feb 6 18:21:44 2011 From: editor at eratiopostmodernpoetry.com (=?iso-8859-1?Q?e=B7ratio?=) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 18:21:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the last days of Edgar Allan Poe, new film coming Message-ID: For fans and scholars of Poe. (I know there are some on this list.) This is a fictionalized account of the last days of Edgar Allan Poe?s Life. Directed by James McTeigue, director of V For Vendetta?and who also worked as first assistant director on The Matrix?trilogy. Poe is played by John Cusack. (!) http://www.theblackboxclub.com/#/news-ears...wall/4546963772 We'll see. . . . http://eratio.blogspot.com/2004/01/edward-goreys-cover-for-tales-of_14.html From gejs1 at rochester.rr.com Sun Feb 6 22:40:02 2011 From: gejs1 at rochester.rr.com (gejs1 at rochester.rr.com) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 3:40:02 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] the last days of Edgar Allan Poe, new film coming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20110207034002.3T14A.75361.root@hrndva-web02-z01> Last year Caylin Schwartz won the Minerva Campbell Literary Contest with her short story, "The unparalelled Aventure of Abigale Brooke," which offered a soluion to Poe's demise: http://www.eglena.wordpress.com/minerva-campbell-literary-contest-winners-2010/ > For fans and scholars of Poe. (I know there are some on this list.) This > is a fictionalized account of the last days of Edgar Allan Poe?s Life. > Directed by James McTeigue, director of V For Vendetta?and who also worked > as first assistant director on The Matrix?trilogy. Poe is played by John > Cusack. (!) > > http://www.theblackboxclub.com/#/news-ears...wall/4546963772 > > We'll see. . . . > > http://eratio.blogspot.com/2004/01/edward-goreys-cover-for-tales-of_14.html > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From junction at earthlink.net Sun Feb 6 23:15:10 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 23:15:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the last days of Edgar Allan Poe, new film coming In-Reply-To: <20110207034002.3T14A.75361.root@hrndva-web02-z01> References: <20110207034002.3T14A.75361.root@hrndva-web02-z01> Message-ID: One of the script writers, Ben Livingston, is a bar-friend of mine. He tells me that the exteriors were shot in Budapest and I think it was Belgrade. Cheaper than Baltimore or NY. It's exciting to know that it's about to appear. Best, Mark At 10:40 PM 2/6/2011, you wrote: >Last year Caylin Schwartz won the Minerva >Campbell Literary Contest with her short story, >"The unparalelled Aventure of Abigale Brooke," >which offered a soluion to Poe's demise: >http://www.eglena.wordpress.com/minerva-campbell-literary-contest-winners-2010/ > > For fans and scholars of Poe. (I know there >are some on this list.) This > is a >fictionalized account of the last days of Edgar >Allan Poe??s Life. > Directed by James McTeigue, >director of V For Vendetta? and who also >worked > as first assistant director on The >Matrix? trilogy. Poe is played by John > >Cusack. (!) > > >http://www.theblackboxclub.com/#/news-ears...wall/4546963772 > > > We'll see. . . . > > >http://eratio.blogspot.com/2004/01/edward-goreys-cover-for-tales-of_14.html > > > > > >_______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Sun Feb 6 23:18:49 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2011 20:18:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] the last days of Edgar Allan Poe, new film coming In-Reply-To: References: <20110207034002.3T14A.75361.root@hrndva-web02-z01> Message-ID: <905819.93592.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I'm in Baltimore right now, and what's not exciting is the news that the house may well close due to lack of funding - http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2011-02-04/entertainment/bs-ae-poe-funding-20110204_1_poe-house-maria-clemm-jeff-jerome ________________________________ From: Mark Weiss It's exciting to know that it's about to appear. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris.kelly at nyu.edu Sun Feb 6 12:25:20 2011 From: chris.kelly at nyu.edu (Christopher Kelly) Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2011 12:25:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] sent by Franz Wright on Facebook In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5be0f963582a5.4d4e9330@mail.nyu.edu> Anny, This is gorgeous. Thank you highly. Xcbk ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini Date: Sunday, February 6, 2011 11:25 am Subject: [New-Poetry] sent by Franz Wright on Facebook To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" > 2 Excerpts from old James Wright memoir/essays > by Franz Wright < on > Sunday, February 6, 2011 at 4:44am > > [A passage, from the early seventies, from my father's prose that I > have > always loved. One, incidentally, which provides a little example of > what > was quite literally his photographic memory, if it is still called > that. It > really does exist, and there is an uncanniness about someone who, I suppose > by genetic chance, possesses one. I can actually remember him saying > once > that he often wished he didn't remember things quite that well; but the > marvelous pleasure he took in it when it came to sharing sometimes > incredibly obscure poetic masterpieces with people, and the pleasure > and > honor of being there to listen to him, are among the best experiences > of my > life.] > > > > From "The Infidel", dated June 9, 1974. Wright is intertwining, in a > complex > yet simple lovely way, the memory of some friends in his past, his > love for > them in spite of the enormous differences that might have irreparably > kept > them separate, then watching the reaction of some students to a short > and > mysterious poem recited to them by his friend, a poet from Iraq, his > own > reaction to it, and its no doubt inexpressibly circuitous way of reminding > him of an incident from his childhood in southern Ohio during the Great > Depression. > > > > *I look back over the sometimes confusing years, and I remember with > affection several people who were believers. I am not myself what I would > call a man of much particular faith, religious or otherwise. But it always > quickens my joy in the value of life to think about my friend Father > George > Garrelts [*of the society of Jesuits],*with whom I spent so many > happy hours > in Minneapolis years ago. Most of all I remember how one evening in > Saint > Paul my precious beloved friend, almost my brother I might call him, > Ghazi > Ismail Gailini, the poet from Iraq, read in Arabic and then > translated in > English for some students and me a little poem from his country. I forget > the name of its author. But what strikes me most sharply in my recollection > of Ghazi's incomparably beautiful recitation is the almost total difference > between the students' response to the poem and my own response. The > students were without exception highly intelligent and attentive. And > yet to > them the poem seemed totally obscure, impenetrable, a poem written in > a > tradition so exotically oriental and foreign to them that they found > it > hopeless. They said that they could never understand the poem in a million > years.* > > > > *To me, the poem was instantly perfectly accessible. Even as I write > down > these memories, the poem seems to me one of the clearest and most > comprehensible poems I have ever heard or read anywhere . . . It is > possible that Ghazi's poem reached out and touched, as with a kindly > and > understanding hand, my half-buried memory of that strange . . . hobo > with > the unwashed eyes, who stepped out of the sumac trees near the railroad > track just above the Ohio River so long ago and shared with my > friends and > me a little of his time, a little of our time, some serious > conversation we > only partly understood, a few of our lies, a couple of our mickies [*I > think, potatoes baked in the ashes of a fire], *and the social > comfort of > our August fire.* > > > > *Here is the poem that Ghazi translated:* > > > > As I drifted near shore > > In the first light of morning, > > I saw my country > > Hunched over in a blackened boat, > > A fire between her knees. > > > > > > +++ > > > > > > From a passage in his notebooks headed, "Home, New York / Feb. 25, 1974", > which has to do with one of the experiences of being a teacher. My father > was absolute in the seriousness and gravity with which he prepared > for and > presented his wonderful classes, there at Hunter College in > Manhattan, where > he became, to his great delight and pride, a full professor of English > Literature--not of creative writing, but of actual literature; and he > often > commented to me that he considered himself a teacher first, and a writer > only > > second. > > It is my hope, by the way, that the reader will grasp in this passage > what > is simply an example of my dad's sense of humor and fun, odd and subtly > biting as it might have been at times. It is my opinion--and that's > all it > is, and it is conceivable, astonishing as it may seem, I am wrong-- > that he > meant no disrespect to women, whom he tended to speak to and treat > with a > kind of old fashioned formality and reverence. Here, I think he is just > joking around with a feeling a middle-aged professor can have on > occasion, I > suppose, a feeling of strangeness and tenderness in the company of the > young, and in this case the young person happens to be a young woman, > and oh > the hell with it. As Mick Jagger immortally put it, Fuck em if they can't > take a joke. > > > > > > *This afternoon, after I had lectured for an hour or so, a girl came > up to > me and exclaimed: "I feel so shaken! How can you go on and on so > passionately about the poems of Robert Herrick? I think he's too--too > pretty. I don't think I like him."* > > > > *Ears small and delicate as the inside of a monarch butterfly's wing: > her > nostrils seemed strong and careful enough to catch something beyond the > fragrance of the sea beside Eype, Fowey, Mousehole, the whole of ancient > Cornwall. I would have liked to ask her to take her shoes off and walk > across the floor of that dismal classroom. I don't know how I know, > but I > know that her toes would have been as sure and strong as the horns of > a > snail.* > > > > *Anthea, Julia, Electra, why do I love Herrick?* > > > > *I don't know. Lucky, I guess.* > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From by.tjmst at gmail.com Mon Feb 7 12:21:34 2011 From: by.tjmst at gmail.com (BY TJMST) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 09:21:34 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Slice of comment on Window Of POSSIBILITY FROM ANY EXPERIMENT -POETRY OR LAB -BASED by gbemi tijani mst Vol 6, 46 Message-ID: THE SWEET BENIGN DIALOGUE between poets and reviewers -Bob Grumman & Chris Lott made interesting reading.How i wish they continue the dialogue of poets experimentaing the uncertain or the positive serendipity of scientists doing the reverse i.e experimenting for the sake of knowledge -with useful or contemporar unproductive results.I t was nice these revered poets permit differences and opine factually that there's an iota of certainty in most scientific experiments inclusing THOMAS ALVA EDISON 's incandescent electric lamp and of course most poetic experiments too turn out to be readable including the free verse .Yet there's sense and sensibility in gravitating towards a readable or resplendent result otherwise -who will masturbate his works or poems or poetics or experiments -only in the attic or lab!Even then is arts for arts sake wasteful today?is fundamental research experiments with no clear cut target for experimentation outmoded?It aso depends on the morality of poetry behind the experiment or the fuel behind the 10,000.poems by a gorgeously gifted poet.Anything productive or spiritually impelled can fuel a cretive work of art or science -how much more in this rat race generation.Award or cash prize can fuel a work of art or poetry book.A good grant or a corporate concerrn for a judicious research can fuel experiments even at a timed frame or it could span years whereas a 10000 poetry book may not even be commissioned before it can be stabilised as a manuscript.Some poets an d crative writers who dont live on writing have many good works that are unpublishable till peers and friends discover them.Achebes's THINGS FALL APART almost got lost after his 1st draft on U.I CAMPUS Halleluyah for poets and writers who later found their creative work not even fueled by money or someone 's prompting1 Yet they become foodstuff for intellectual feeding across the generations ofgenre unthought useful -albeit imagined relevant to peer standard. Plaease continue teaching about poems 7 poets across the centuries -i mean Bob Grumann ET AL AT NEW POETRY GBEMI TIJANI MST 7feb notes as power & server can permit here The website is wealthy of poets of diverse opinion on writers and poets.You will be welcome to the new PILOT PROJECT OF ROTARY INYERNATIONAL -expermenting Associate,Satellite and Corporate Membership by invitation ---this is a gorgeously flexible experiment of perenating RI MEMBERSHIP beyond 1.2 million current strength.This idea was once dormant or ha sn' t occured til recent disclosure .Yet t seems it will not only boost Rotary international humanitarian endeavour it will augment experimentation of the experimentables insofar as they are grermane to human development that permit creativity to thrive.This is good and the genes of all those that embrace this kind of experimentation should be perpetuated and theres should be biomedically preserved for global genetics of mortals that are maverick yet humane/BillGeate as a honourary Rotarian and creative capitalist of the microsoft fame is a neat and fruiful example that's empowering or shall i say catalysing poets and designers works via his software service and consistent windows of possibilities.Amen from GBEMI TIJANI MST On 1/31/11, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote: > Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > You can reach the person managing the list at > new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Poet Publishes 10,000-Page Poem (Bob Grumman) > 2. Fw: Only 13% of Wikipedia contributors are women... (amy king) > 3. Re: Poet Publishes 10,000-Page Poem (Chris Lott) > 4. movie recommendation: Exit Thru The Gift Shop (jforjames at aol.com) > 5. Re: Poet Publishes 10,000-Page Poem (Chris Lott) > 6. Re: movie recommendation: Exit Thru The Gift Shop > (Halvard Johnson) > 7. Re: Poet Publishes 10,000-Page Poem (Halvard Johnson) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 12:16:53 -0500 > From: Bob Grumman > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Publishes 10,000-Page Poem > Message-ID: <4D46EE85.2040802 at nut-n-but.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" > > On 1/31/2011 10:59 AM, Chris Lott wrote: >> On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 5:44 PM, Bob Grumman >> wrote: >>> On 1/30/2011 8:36 PM, Chris Lott wrote: >>>> How do you know in advance that the work yet to come from so many >>>> contemporary poets-- indeed, even the existing work of poets you've >>>> never read-- will be uninteresting to you? >>> I don't. Not sure what your point is. >> You've made claims here about poets and poems you've never read. That >> seems to me much like not performing an experiment when the outcome >> seems practically certain. > > Right. I don't have time to perform every possible experiment. I > perform the ones I think will produce them most interesting results. I > leave the others to Wilshberians. > > Just kidding, Chris. You're certainly right that many experiments are > foolish. Our only difference is that I say even the worst of > experiments will tell us something of /some /use, and you say they > won't. As a practical matter, I would surely agree that many > experiments aren't worth doing. > > I don't think much in terms of experiments, but in terms of conformity: > how closely should one's efforts as a poet conform to what others are > doing or have done. Who knows. I think perhaps the ideal poet would > conform in every possible way to what is being or has been done in > poetry--but also do as much as possible in new ways. Cummings was the > most unorthodox poet of his time--but also the most traditional--in > subject matter, for instance. > > >>>> I don't think I'm saying anything particularly controversial in noting >>>> that the value of an experiment that provides confirmation is one that >>>> declines rather precipitously after only a few repetitions. >>>> >>>> c >>> Not sure what you mean here, either. An experiment that works provides a >>> method that may provide a basis for superior poems for decades. Free >>> verse, >>> for example. >> We were talking about experiments with "negative" outcomes. > Okay, I guess I agree with you. > > I think where /some/ "experimental poets" are concerned, the problem is > not that they carry out lots of experiments, but that they are > uncritical of the results: as many New-Poetry participants say, they > seem to think that if something is experimental or new or innovative or > adventurous, it's good. I believe the effort is always praiseworthy, > but that the outcome may not be. > > --Bob > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 09:45:05 -0800 (PST) > From: amy king > To: UB Poetics discussion group , > "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Subject: [New-Poetry] Fw: Only 13% of Wikipedia contributors are > women... > Message-ID: <270874.42503.qm at web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Katha Pollitt points out: > > > some of you may have seen this front-page article in the NY Times: > > > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/31/business/media/31link.html?_r=2&hp > > As the article points out, because of the absence of women contributors, > subjects about women, or of interest to women, are severely scanted. It's > pretty shocking, especially when you consider what a standard reference > wikipedia is becoming. It occurs to me that many of this list are not only > writers but have lots of literary and scholarly expertise -- > > > > > > > > > ********* > VIDA: Women in Literary Arts > + Interviews > > Amy's Alias > + http://amyking.org/ > ******** > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 08:56:39 -0900 > From: Chris Lott > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Publishes 10,000-Page Poem > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 > > Nothing's really monolithic. But it's for that very reason that I > think a simple Google search or browse through the poets Ron Silliman > praises is a better way to get a sample than asking me. > > I don't resent post-avant poetry. After five+ years of trying to it > out, I've decided it's a taste that's not for me and determined that > most (most = to a greater degree than Sturgeon's Law would suggest) of > it is neither particularly experimental or particularly new, though it > is often claimed to be so. > > I'm sure there are exceptions (I've blogged about a few of them in the > past, works by Lance Phillips and Tony Tost spring readily to mind) > but the experiment of continuing to try to read that kind of work has > reached the point where the returns aren't worth it. I only read in > that area now when something comes recommended by a trusted friend or > acquaintance or filters its way multiple times through the loose > social network to demand attention). I don't have time to read > everything. > > c > > On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 7:45 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: >> Thanks for the avoidance. >> >> Note that whatever you're talking about isn't monolithic. Which is why I >> asked what you mean by it. >> >> It would be good to know what it is precisely that you seem to resent, and >> if there are any exceptions. >> >> Best, >> >> Mark >> >> At 11:01 AM 1/31/2011, you wrote: >> >> On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Mark Weiss >> wrote: >>> Hey Chris, I have no idea what you mean by post-avant, but why don't you >>> show us a poem in that category that you like? >> >> As they say, if you are actually interested, then "just Google it"- >> the term will reveal itself quickly enough as a currency traded by the >> Sillimanites. >> >> Although, if you actually have no idea what "post-avant" is then you >> are a fortunate man. Why tempt fate? >> >> c >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. >> $16.? Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm >> >> >> "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of >> particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and >> through >> every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? >> fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, >> the >> more they seem to contain? One can hear echoes from all the various >> ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. >> His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure >> musical >> threnody?[it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a >> personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." >> >> M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. >> http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 12:59:03 -0500 > From: jforjames at aol.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: [New-Poetry] movie recommendation: Exit Thru The Gift Shop > Message-ID: <8CD8F87AE1424CF-1BA0-4962 at webmail-d028.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > I recommend Exit Thru The Gift Shop. > http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1587707/ > > It's about the international 'street art' movement (Banksy, Shepard Fairey, > et al), it's about the art world and how it attaches itself to the next big > thing, but mostly it's about individual artistic audacity, bravado, > perseverance, etc., and it's fun. > > Finnegan > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 09:03:29 -0900 > From: Chris Lott > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Publishes 10,000-Page Poem > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > "I believe the effort is always praiseworthy, but that the outcome may > not be." Hey, I agree with you. That's two agreements-- or close > enough-- in just a few hours. I feel like retiring from mailing list > life. > > At any rate, I agree, though admiring the effort abstractly is > different from spending time and effort reading the results. Based on > my experience with it, I think most post-avant poetry is dull, dull, > dull (so is most country music, so are most romance novels)... but I > admire the effort artists put in nonetheless. > > c > > > On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 8:16 AM, Bob Grumman > wrote: >> On 1/31/2011 10:59 AM, Chris Lott wrote: >> >> On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 5:44 PM, Bob Grumman >> wrote: >> >> On 1/30/2011 8:36 PM, Chris Lott wrote: >> >> How do you know in advance that the work yet to come from so many >> contemporary poets-- indeed, even the existing work of poets you've >> never read-- will be uninteresting to you? >> >> I don't. ?Not sure what your point is. >> >> You've made claims here about poets and poems you've never read. That >> seems to me much like not performing an experiment when the outcome >> seems practically certain. >> >> Right.? I don't have time to perform every possible experiment.? I perform >> the ones I think will produce them most interesting results.? I leave the >> others to Wilshberians. >> >> Just kidding, Chris.? You're certainly right that many experiments are >> foolish.? Our only difference is that I say even the worst of experiments >> will tell us something of some use, and you say they won't.? As a >> practical >> matter, I would surely agree that many experiments aren't worth doing. >> >> I don't think much in terms of experiments, but in terms of conformity: >> how >> closely should one's efforts as a poet conform to what others are doing or >> have done.? Who knows.? I think perhaps the ideal poet would conform in >> every possible way to what is being or has been done in poetry--but also >> do >> as much as possible in new ways.? Cummings was the most unorthodox poet of >> his time--but also the most traditional--in subject matter, for instance. >> >> >> I don't think I'm saying anything particularly controversial in noting >> that the value of an experiment that provides confirmation is one that >> declines rather precipitously after only a few repetitions. >> >> c >> >> Not sure what you mean here, either. ?An experiment that works provides a >> method that may provide a basis for superior poems for decades. ?Free >> verse, >> for example. >> >> We were talking about experiments with "negative" outcomes. >> >> Okay, I guess I agree with you. >> >> I think where some "experimental poets" are concerned, the problem is not >> that they carry out lots of experiments, but that they are uncritical of >> the >> results: as many New-Poetry participants say, they seem to think that if >> something is experimental or new or innovative or adventurous, it's good.? >> I >> believe the effort is always praiseworthy, but that the outcome may not >> be. >> >> --Bob >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 12:09:15 -0600 > From: Halvard Johnson > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] movie recommendation: Exit Thru The Gift > Shop > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > What Finnegan said. > > Hal > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > *Mainly > Black > , **Obras > P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other > Sonnets > ;* > *Organ Harvest with Entrance of > Clones > ; **Tango > Bouquet > ; **Theory of > Harmony > ; * > ***Rapsodie > espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo > Subway > ; **The Sonnet > Project > ; * > ***G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; > **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; > * > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 11:59 AM, wrote: > >> I recommend Exit Thru The Gift Shop. >> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1587707/ >> >> It's about the international 'street art' movement (Banksy, Shepard >> Fairey, et al), it's about the art world and how it attaches itself to the >> next big thing, but mostly it's about individual artistic audacity, >> bravado, >> perseverance, etc., and it's fun. >> >> Finnegan >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Mon, 31 Jan 2011 12:10:25 -0600 > From: Halvard Johnson > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poet Publishes 10,000-Page Poem > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Most poetry is dull, dull, dull. > > Hal > > Serving the tri-state area. > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > *Mainly > Black > , **Obras > P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other > Sonnets > ;* > *Organ Harvest with Entrance of > Clones > ; **Tango > Bouquet > ; **Theory of > Harmony > ; * > ***Rapsodie > espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo > Subway > ; **The Sonnet > Project > ; * > ***G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; > **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; > * > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 12:03 PM, Chris Lott wrote: > >> "I believe the effort is always praiseworthy, but that the outcome may >> not be." Hey, I agree with you. That's two agreements-- or close >> enough-- in just a few hours. I feel like retiring from mailing list >> life. >> >> At any rate, I agree, though admiring the effort abstractly is >> different from spending time and effort reading the results. Based on >> my experience with it, I think most post-avant poetry is dull, dull, >> dull (so is most country music, so are most romance novels)... but I >> admire the effort artists put in nonetheless. >> >> c >> >> >> On Mon, Jan 31, 2011 at 8:16 AM, Bob Grumman >> wrote: >> > On 1/31/2011 10:59 AM, Chris Lott wrote: >> > >> > On Sun, Jan 30, 2011 at 5:44 PM, Bob Grumman >> > wrote: >> > >> > On 1/30/2011 8:36 PM, Chris Lott wrote: >> > >> > How do you know in advance that the work yet to come from so many >> > contemporary poets-- indeed, even the existing work of poets you've >> > never read-- will be uninteresting to you? >> > >> > I don't. Not sure what your point is. >> > >> > You've made claims here about poets and poems you've never read. That >> > seems to me much like not performing an experiment when the outcome >> > seems practically certain. >> > >> > Right. I don't have time to perform every possible experiment. I >> perform >> > the ones I think will produce them most interesting results. I leave >> > the >> > others to Wilshberians. >> > >> > Just kidding, Chris. You're certainly right that many experiments are >> > foolish. Our only difference is that I say even the worst of >> > experiments >> > will tell us something of some use, and you say they won't. As a >> practical >> > matter, I would surely agree that many experiments aren't worth doing. >> > >> > I don't think much in terms of experiments, but in terms of conformity: >> how >> > closely should one's efforts as a poet conform to what others are doing >> or >> > have done. Who knows. I think perhaps the ideal poet would conform in >> > every possible way to what is being or has been done in poetry--but also >> do >> > as much as possible in new ways. Cummings was the most unorthodox poet >> of >> > his time--but also the most traditional--in subject matter, for >> > instance. >> > >> > >> > I don't think I'm saying anything particularly controversial in noting >> > that the value of an experiment that provides confirmation is one that >> > declines rather precipitously after only a few repetitions. >> > >> > c >> > >> > Not sure what you mean here, either. An experiment that works provides >> > a >> > method that may provide a basis for superior poems for decades. Free >> verse, >> > for example. >> > >> > We were talking about experiments with "negative" outcomes. >> > >> > Okay, I guess I agree with you. >> > >> > I think where some "experimental poets" are concerned, the problem is >> > not >> > that they carry out lots of experiments, but that they are uncritical of >> the >> > results: as many New-Poetry participants say, they seem to think that if >> > something is experimental or new or innovative or adventurous, it's >> good. I >> > believe the effort is always praiseworthy, but that the outcome may not >> be. >> > >> > --Bob >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New-Poetry mailing list >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> > >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 6, Issue 46 > ***************************************** > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 7 12:27:55 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 12:27:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Something for Fans of Basho and Stevens In-Reply-To: References: <8CD94456322CC76-1298-1A7CF@webmail-m134.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D502B9B.6090603@nut-n-but.net> Here's my latest, although it's still in-progress. Previous versions and discussions of the "pluraphrase," which is my way of dealing with the full analysis of a poem, are at http:poeticks.com. I'm ridiculously happy with it. Comments on it or the pluraphrase welcome. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: the-the02.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 42080 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jforjames at aol.com Mon Feb 7 13:29:46 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 13:29:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] New digs for the Bukowski files Message-ID: <8CD950C21D5733E-FC4-26C51@webmail-m012.sysops.aol.com> http://www.npr.org/2011/02/06/133538958/A-New-Home-For-The-Poet-Of-Skid-Row February 6, 2011 The writings and art of Charles Bukowski, who has been called the "Poet of Skid Row," have found a permanent home. The Huntington Library in Southern California is taking in Bukowski's manuscripts, letters and paintings. There's also a move to make his former home, complete with unemptied ashtrays, a museum. From member station KPCC, Steven Cuevas reports. (audio) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Mon Feb 7 13:50:15 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 13:50:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Elizabeth Bishop at 100 Message-ID: <8CD950EFE01EDC8-1C38-375@webmail-d058.sysops.aol.com> http://www.92y.org/shop/event_detail.asp?category=Programs888Programs+-+Literary+Readings888Main+Reading+Series888&productid=T-NN0TC20 Elizabeth Bishop at 100 At Cooper Union Twenty contemporary poets read a favorite poem by Elizabeth Bishop in honor of her centenary year, with actors reading excerpts from the new volume of her correspondence, Elizabeth Bishop and The New Yorker. Featuring Elizabeth Alexander, John Ashbery, Frank Bidart, Gabrielle Calvocoressi, Tina Chang, Jonathan Galassi, Kimiko Hahn, Richard Howard, Marie Howe, Yusef Komunyakaa, David Lehman, Paul Muldoon, Robert Polito, Marie Ponsot, Vijay Seshadri, Tom Sleigh, Mark Strand, Tracy K. Smith and Jean Valentine. This event will take place at the Great Hall of Cooper Union. Admission is free. A collaboration of the Poetry Society of America, Farrar, Straus & Giroux, Poets House and the Unterberg Poetry Center. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From gejs1 at rochester.rr.com Mon Feb 7 15:32:32 2011 From: gejs1 at rochester.rr.com (gejs1 at rochester.rr.com) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 20:32:32 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] the last days of Edgar Allan Poe, new film coming In-Reply-To: <905819.93592.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20110207203232.OSCRS.79258.root@hrndva-web08-z02> Perhaps a screening could be arranged... all proceeds going to saving the house. Win-win situation for one and all... free publicity, proceeds... G. E. Schwartz > I'm in Baltimore right now, and what's not exciting is the news that the house > may well close due to lack of funding - > http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2011-02-04/entertainment/bs-ae-poe-funding-20110204_1_poe-house-maria-clemm-jeff-jerome > > > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Mark Weiss > > It's exciting to know that it's about to appear. > > > From amyhappens at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 16:24:51 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 13:24:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On Message-ID: <241764.34908.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Articles (& comments' sections filled with debate), so far, on The Count -- http://vidaweb.org/category/the-count 1.) Bitch Magazine - http://bitchmagazine.org/post/women-in-publishing 2.) The Hairpin - http://thehairpin.com/2011/02/women-get-published-and-reviewed-less-than-men-in-big-magazines-say-red-and-blue-pie-charts/ 3.) Jezebel - http://jezebel.com/5750239/the-sorry-state-of-women-at-top-magazines 4.) Poetry Foundation - http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2011/02/the-vida-count-for-2010 5.) The Rumpus - http://therumpus.net/2011/02/women-in-publishing/ 6.) Double X - http://www.doublex.com/blog/xxfactor/why-it-matters-fewer-women-are-published-literary-magazines 7.) Slate - http://www.slate.com/id/2283605/ 8.) Women and Hollywood - http://blogs.indiewire.com/womenandhollywood/archives/the_numbers_speak_for_themselves/ 9.) Kultura (in Croatian) - http://www.tportal.hr/kultura/knjizevnost/109858/Do-cetiri-puta-manje-tekstova-zena.html 10.) Beyond the Margins - http://beyondthemargins.com/2011/02/submitting-work-a-womans-problem/ 11.) Ms. Magazine (a mention) - http://msmagazine.com/blog/blog/2011/02/06/going-to-space-rising-up-and-not-apologizing-for-roethlisberger-editors-picks-130-25/ 12.) The New Republic - http://www.tnr.com/article/books-and-arts/82930/VIDA-women-writers-magazines-book-reviews ********* Amy's Alias + http://amyking.org/ ******** From amyhappens at yahoo.com Mon Feb 7 16:54:50 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 13:54:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On In-Reply-To: <241764.34908.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <241764.34908.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <906267.6592.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Apologies, forgot The Guardian - http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/feb/04/research-male-writers-dominate-books-world Articles (& comments' sections filled with debate), so far, on The Count -- http://vidaweb.org/category/the-count 1.) Bitch Magazine - http://bitchmagazine.org/post/women-in-publishing 2.) The Hairpin - http://thehairpin.com/2011/02/women-get-published-and-reviewed-less-than-men-in-big-magazines-say-red-and-blue-pie-charts/ 3.) Jezebel - http://jezebel.com/5750239/the-sorry-state-of-women-at-top-magazines 4.) Poetry Foundation - http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2011/02/the-vida-count-for-2010 5.) The Rumpus - http://therumpus.net/2011/02/women-in-publishing/ 6.) Double X - http://www.doublex.com/blog/xxfactor/why-it-matters-fewer-women-are-published-literary-magazines 7.) Slate - http://www.slate.com/id/2283605/ 8.) Women and Hollywood - http://blogs.indiewire.com/womenandhollywood/archives/the_numbers_speak_for_themselves/ 9.) Kultura (in Croatian) - http://www.tportal.hr/kultura/knjizevnost/109858/Do-cetiri-puta-manje-tekstova-zena.html 10.) Beyond the Margins - http://beyondthemargins.com/2011/02/submitting-work-a-womans-problem/ 11.) Ms. Magazine (a mention) - http://msmagazine.com/blog/blog/2011/02/06/going-to-space-rising-up-and-not-apologizing-for-roethlisberger-editors-picks-130-25/ 12.) The New Republic - http://www.tnr.com/article/books-and-arts/82930/VIDA-women-writers-magazines-book-reviews From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 7 17:40:38 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 17:40:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On In-Reply-To: <906267.6592.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <241764.34908.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <906267.6592.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D5074E6.8040800@nut-n-but.net> I'm curious, Amy-- has the success of Steele or Rowling entered any of these discussions? --Bob From robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com Mon Feb 7 18:17:59 2011 From: robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2011 18:17:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On In-Reply-To: <4D5074E6.8040800@nut-n-but.net> References: <241764.34908.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><906267.6592.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4D5074E6.8040800@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <512F8CB81F4C4516A8A228FF05CDAC4E@RobinLaptopPC> > I'm curious, Amy-- has the success of Steele or Rowling entered any of > these discussions? > > --Bob Someone on the Guardian comment thread (which was partially censored and is now closed, I believe) to their article picking up on the Vida original mentioned J.K.Rowling, to the effect that (I'm paraphrasing crudely) she used androgynous initials, implicitly read as male, to start with, since otherwise she felt that boys wouldn't read her books. I'm slightly dubious about this as so much of the marketing of Harry Potter (which is independent of the quality of the books, which I quite liked) stressed the single-mother-writing-great-books-while-living-on-benefits angle. But who knows. I'm still not entirely sure about the nature of the graphs presented in the original Vida piece, as they don't quite seem to equate in terms of labelling, but that may just be me. Interesting that the discussion (is this actually the case?) of the 13% Wiki piece (given a lot of space by the NYT) and the Vida Numbers seem to be running independently. Oh yeah, what did strike me was in the Vida graphs, Poetry (Chicago) stands out like a sore thumb (or a beacon?) from the rest of the statistics. Odd that, but. Robin From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 7 19:53:51 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2011 19:53:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On In-Reply-To: <512F8CB81F4C4516A8A228FF05CDAC4E@RobinLaptopPC> References: <241764.34908.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><906267.6592.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4D5074E6.8040800@nut-n-but. net> <512F8CB81F4C4516A8A228FF05CDAC4E@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4D50941F.2090502@nut-n-but.net> On 2/7/2011 6:17 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote: >> I'm curious, Amy-- has the success of Steele or Rowling entered any >> of these discussions? >> >> --Bob > > Someone on the Guardian comment thread (which was partially censored > and is now closed, I believe) to their article picking up on the Vida > original mentioned J.K.Rowling, to the effect that (I'm paraphrasing > crudely) she used androgynous initials, implicitly read as male, to > start with, since otherwise she felt that boys wouldn't read her books. > > I'm slightly dubious about this as so much of the marketing of Harry > Potter (which is independent of the quality of the books, which I > quite liked) stressed the > single-mother-writing-great-books-while-living-on-benefits angle. But > who knows. > > I'm still not entirely sure about the nature of the graphs presented > in the original Vida piece, as they don't quite seem to equate in > terms of labelling, but that may just be me. > > Interesting that the discussion (is this actually the case?) of the > 13% Wiki piece (given a lot of space by the NYT) and the Vida Numbers > seem to be running independently. > > Oh yeah, what did strike me was in the Vida graphs, Poetry (Chicago) > stands out like a sore thumb (or a beacon?) from the rest of the > statistics. > > Odd that, but. > > Robin I haven't read anything about it except Amy's reports. Just curious about the fact that women seem to have authored a good number of best-sellers, and publishers and editors like the make money, so I have trouble thinking they would treat a female author differently from a male. But maybe in poetry. Anyway, hugely more complex than graphs make it seem to some, and too touchy a subject for anyone like me to get into. So I really have to stop posting about it! --Bob From millb at aol.com Tue Feb 8 13:20:58 2011 From: millb at aol.com (Millicent Borges Accardi) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 13:20:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Sexing it Slow Message-ID: <8CD95D41176E579-5DC-695@webmail-m060.sysops.aol.com> Greetings, I survived AWP and am back in California just in time to share two Valentine's-esque poems and a story about my Grandmother and Tom Jones. If you can, please leave a comment. Poetry Friday: Sexing it Slow http://womensvoicesforchange.org/poetry-friday-sexing-it-slow.htm Thanks! Millicent -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Tue Feb 8 13:26:31 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 13:26:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Harriet Monroe Poetry Institute Publishes Blueprints In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CD95D4D728965B-7B0-B19@webmail-m093.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: Poetry Foundation To: Jim Finnegan Sent: Tue, Feb 8, 2011 12:55 pm Subject: For Immediate Release: Harriet Monroe Poetry Institute Publishes Blueprints FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE February 8, 2011 Harriet Monroe Poetry Institute Publishes Blueprints Celebrated Poets Convene to Bring Poetry into Communities CHICAGO?The Poetry Foundation, publisher of Poetry magazine, is pleased to announce the publication of the e-book Blueprints: Bringing Poetry into Communities, co-published with the University of Utah Press. A project of the Poetry Foundation?s Harriet Monroe Poetry Institute and edited by inaugural director Katharine Coles, the book brings together noted poets and community leaders to discuss the inventive ways they?ve introduced poetry to diverse communities. The essays include tips, program ideas, and successful methods for bringing poetry to people, while the book?s final section draws from the strategies discussed in those essays to offer a flexible toolkit for individuals and organizations interested in bringing poetry into their own communities. Essays and contributions come from poets associated with the following programs and organizations: Elizabeth Alexander, Cave Canem Sherwin Bitsui, Nizhoni Bridges and the Tohono O?odham Nation Susan Boskoff, Nevada Arts Council Lee Briccetti, Poets House Alison Hawthorne Deming, University of Arizona?s Poetry Center Dana Gioia, Poetry Out Loud Robert Hass, River of Words Bas Kwakman, Poetry International Thomas Lux, Poetry at Tech Christopher Merrill, University of Iowa International Writing Program Luis Rodriguez, Tia Chucha?s Centro Cultural & Bookstore Anna Deavere Smith, Anna Deavere Smith Works, Inc. Patricia Smith, Poetry Slam Tree Swenson, Academy of American Poets Orlando White, Din? College The contributors to Blueprints draw from a wealth of experiential learning to provide encouragement for budding poetry communities and arts administrators. Robert Hass writes about his work with River of Words, an organization that encourages environmental awareness through the arts, and the lessons he?s learned about running a successful nonprofit. Elizabeth Alexander, who read at President Obama?s inauguration and is a supporter of Cave Canem, discusses her own search for community as well as the importance of togetherness and safe spaces for creative expression. And Lee Briccetti of Poets House in New York City reminds organizers that fostering an environment conducive to the appreciation of poetry can achieve immeasurable results. She offers words that any community builder might live by: ?You can?t create love. But you can create the conditions for love.? By providing stories from those who have succeeded in bringing poetry to communities and highlighting proven techniques, the book offers readers inspiration, guidance, and confidence, as well as practical tools and strategies. It is available for free download at www.poetryfoundation.org/blueprints. The print book, which will be published in March, will be available for sale at bookstores, through online retailers, or from the University of Utah Press at www.uofupress.com. Katharine Coles is available for interviews about this project. Please call 312.799.8016 to schedule a time to speak with her. View this release online. FORWARD TO A FRIEND ? CONTACT POETRY FOUNDATION 444 North Michigan Avenue Chicago, IL 60611 312.799.8016 Media Contact: Stephanie Hlywak ABOUT THE POETRY FOUNDATION The Poetry Foundation, publisher of Poetry magazine, is an independent literary organization committed to a vigorous presence for poetry in our culture. It exists to discover and celebrate the best poetry and to place it before the largest possible audience. The Poetry Foundation seeks to be a leader in shaping a receptive climate for poetry by developing new audiences, creating new avenues for delivery, and encouraging new kinds of poetry through innovative literary prizes and programs. Follow the Poetry Foundation and Poetry on Facebook or on Twitter. About the Harriet Monroe Poetry Institute The Harriet Monroe Poetry Institute is an independent forum created to provide a space in which fresh thinking about poetry, in both its intellectual and its practical needs, can flourish free of any allegiance other than to the best ideas. With this in mind, the Institute convenes leading poets, scholars, publishers, educators, and other thinkers from inside and outside the poetry world to address issues of importance to the art form of poetry and to identify and champion solutions for the benefit of the art. You have received this newsletter because you submitted your e-mail address at http://www.poetryfoundation.org. You may unsubscribe or change your newsletter subscription preferences at any time. Copyright ? 2011 Poetry Foundation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tichaona at inthewhirlwind.com Tue Feb 8 13:37:58 2011 From: tichaona at inthewhirlwind.com (Tichaona Chinyelu) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 11:37:58 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] How George Wallace Saved the World Message-ID: <20110208113758.06739fca92e8a33e1cdb4ae2881c2177.824a1aa27d.wbe@email01.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Tue Feb 8 15:58:36 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 15:58:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On In-Reply-To: <4D50941F.2090502@nut-n-but.net> References: <241764.34908.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><906267.6592.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4D5074E6.8040800@nut-n-but.net> <512F8CB81F4C4516A8A228FF05CDAC4E@RobinLaptopPC> <4D50941F.2090502@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <8CD95EA16F106F4-7B0-2E76@webmail-m093.sysops.aol.com> Bob, dragging Steele and Rowlings into this discussion is being a bit obtuse. The VIDA survey is pretty straightforward (and telling): It took a sample of leading literary publications (not novel sales), tallied & created graphical gender divisions. They looked at the publications from two general perspectives, # by-lines or # of books reviewed. For most of the publications cited the results were shown to be heavily skewed toward men. The stats, as released, are not attempting drill down by genre...most of the publicatons cited publish a lot of articles and reviews. The sales of Rowlings and Steele or Jonathan Franzen for that matter or not relevant. Counting the novelists by gender that Random House/Knopf/FSG publishes year by year might be more related to what VIDA is trying to show. High-circulation literary magazines have influence on award-giving, job placement/advancement, etc...so it makes sense to focus on them. The message is pretty clear: Don't assume there is gender equality in literary publishing and author attention. My guess is this survey, as simple as it was, will have an influence on editors and their staffs, and within 2-3 years time we'll see them adding more women to the Contents pages of their publications. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry List Sent: Mon, Feb 7, 2011 7:53 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On On 2/7/2011 6:17 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote: >> I'm curious, Amy-- has the success of Steele or Rowling entered any >> of these discussions? >> >> --Bob > > Someone on the Guardian comment thread (which was partially censored > and is now closed, I believe) to their article picking up on the Vida > original mentioned J.K.Rowling, to the effect that (I'm paraphrasing > crudely) she used androgynous initials, implicitly read as male, to > start with, since otherwise she felt that boys wouldn't read her books. > > I'm slightly dubious about this as so much of the marketing of Harry > Potter (which is independent of the quality of the books, which I > quite liked) stressed the > single-mother-writing-great-books-while-living-on-benefits angle. But > who knows. > > I'm still not entirely sure about the nature of the graphs presented > in the original Vida piece, as they don't quite seem to equate in > terms of labelling, but that may just be me. > > Interesting that the discussion (is this actually the case?) of the > 13% Wiki piece (given a lot of space by the NYT) and the Vida Numbers > seem to be running independently. > > Oh yeah, what did strike me was in the Vida graphs, Poetry (Chicago) > stands out like a sore thumb (or a beacon?) from the rest of the > statistics. > > Odd that, but. > > Robin I haven't read anything about it except Amy's reports. Just curious about the fact that women seem to have authored a good number of best-sellers, and publishers and editors like the make money, so I have trouble thinking they would treat a female author differently from a male. But maybe in poetry. Anyway, hugely more complex than graphs make it seem to some, and too touchy a subject for anyone like me to get into. So I really have to stop posting about it! --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris.murray.bahrain at gmail.com Tue Feb 8 16:00:28 2011 From: chris.murray.bahrain at gmail.com (chris murray) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 15:00:28 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Yet another domain curiously lacking the work of creative women . . . Message-ID: Found this of peripheral interest: http://shar.es/3ghj4 cm From jforjames at aol.com Tue Feb 8 16:16:09 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 16:16:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On In-Reply-To: <8CD95EA16F106F4-7B0-2E76@webmail-m093.sysops.aol.com> References: <241764.34908.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><906267.6592.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4D5074E6.8040800@nut-n-but.net><512F8CB81F4C4516A8A228FF05CDAC4E@RobinLaptopPC><4D50941F.2090502@nut-n-but.net> <8CD95EA16F106F4-7B0-2E76@webmail-m093.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CD95EC8A210469-7B0-31F1@webmail-m093.sysops.aol.com> >From one of links Amy sent... http://www.tnr.com/article/books-and-arts/82930/VIDA-women-writers-magazines-book-reviews We looked at fall 2010 catalogs from 13 publishing houses, big and small. Discarding the books that were unlikely to get reviewed?self-help, cooking, art?we tallied up how many were by men and how many were by women. Only one of the houses we investigated?the boutique Penguin imprint Riverhead?came close to parity, with 55 percent of its books by men and 45 percent by women. Random House came in second, with 37 percent by women. It was downhill from there, with three publishers scoring around 30 percent?Norton, Little Brown, and Harper?and the rest 25 percent and below, including the elite literary houses Knopf (23 percent) and FSG (21 percent). Harvard University Press, the sole academic press we considered, came in at just 15 percent. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Feb 8 16:49:17 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 16:49:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On In-Reply-To: <8CD95EC8A210469-7B0-31F1@webmail-m093.sysops.aol.com> References: <241764.34908.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <906267.6592.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4D5074E6.8040800@nut-n-but.net> <512F8CB81F4C4516A8A228FF05CDAC4E@RobinLaptopPC> <4D50941F.2090502@nut-n-but.net> <8CD95EA16F106F4-7B0-2E76@webmail-m093.sysops.aol.com> <8CD95EC8A210469-7B0-31F1@webmail-m093.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Two things. While on the face of it this is pretty awful, it would be helpful--essential, in fact, for interpreting the findings--to know what the gender divide is among submissions in the various categories. I'm not doubting the outcome, I'm saying without this difficult-to-uncover data we don't really know what the numbers mean. Although it seems intuitively unlikely, it's entirely possible that the situation is like that in wikiland, where women simply don't appear to want into the game in equal numbers. Second, self-help, cooking and art books are reviewed much more copiously than all but bestsellers in other genres, and the first two, along with romance novels, are the most profitable areas in publishing. They're also overwhelmingly produced by women, just as crime and science fiction are mostly male genres (though I think we can all name important women in the field). Rather than it seems to me potentially skewing the results and discussing only books in genres "we" take seriously, a breakdown by genre would be helpful. A suggestion: I don't know much about agents--hell, I'm a poet. The only one I know personally is a woman. A gender breakdown of agents would be useful, and they'd also be useful for feedback, as for the larger presses they're the usual conduit. Once there's a firm sense of what the numbers mean, there remains the problem of what to do about it. Best, Mark At 04:16 PM 2/8/2011, you wrote: > From one of links Amy sent... >http://www.tnr.com/article/books-and-arts/82930/VIDA-women-writers-magazines-book-reviews > >We looked at fall 2010 catalogs from 13 >publishing houses, big and small. Discarding the >books that were unlikely to get >reviewed???self-help, cooking, art?we tallied up >how many were by men andd how many were by >women. Only one of the houses we >investigated?thhe boutique Penguin imprint >Riverhead?came close to parity, with 555 percent >of its books by men and 45 percent by women. >Random House came in second, with 37 percent by >women. It was downhill from there, with three >publishers scoring around 30 percent?Norton, >Little Brown, and Haarper?and the rest 25 >percent and below, including the elite literaary >houses Knopf (23 percent) and FSG (21 percent). >Harvard University Press, the sole academic >press we considered, came in at just 15 percent. > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Tue Feb 8 17:08:02 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 16:08:02 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On In-Reply-To: References: <241764.34908.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <906267.6592.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4D5074E6.8040800@nut-n-but.net> <512F8CB81F4C4516A8A228FF05CDAC4E@RobinLaptopPC> <4D50941F.2090502@nut-n-but.net> <8CD95EA16F106F4-7B0-2E76@webmail-m093.sysops.aol.com> <8CD95EC8A210469-7B0-31F1@webmail-m093.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Well, men could start writing less. That would be the gentlemanly thing to do. "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home *Mainly Black , **Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ;* *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; * ***Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; * ***G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 3:49 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Two things. While on the face of it this is pretty awful, it would be > helpful--essential, in fact, for interpreting the findings--to know what the > gender divide is among submissions in the various categories. I'm not > doubting the outcome, I'm saying without this difficult-to-uncover data we > don't really know what the numbers mean. Although it seems intuitively > unlikely, it's entirely possible that the situation is like that in > wikiland, where women simply don't appear to want into the game in equal > numbers. > Second, self-help, cooking and art books are reviewed much more copiously > than all but bestsellers in other genres, and the first two, along with > romance novels, are the most profitable areas in publishing. They're also > overwhelmingly produced by women, just as crime and science fiction are > mostly male genres (though I think we can all name important women in the > field). Rather than it seems to me potentially skewing the results and > discussing only books in genres "we" take seriously, a breakdown by genre > would be helpful. > > A suggestion: I don't know much about agents--hell, I'm a poet. The only > one I know personally is a woman. A gender breakdown of agents would be > useful, and they'd also be useful for feedback, as for the larger presses > they're the usual conduit. > > Once there's a firm sense of what the numbers mean, there remains the > problem of what to do about it. > > Best, > > Mark > > At 04:16 PM 2/8/2011, you wrote: > > *From one of links Amy sent... > http://www.tnr.com/article/books-and-arts/82930/VIDA-women-writers-magazines-book-reviews > * > *We looked at* fall 2010 catalogs from 13 publishing houses, big and > small. Discarding the books that were unlikely to get reviewed???self-help, > cooking, art?we tallied up how many were by men andd how many were by women. > Only one of the houses we investigated?thhe boutique Penguin imprint > Riverhead?came close to parity, with 555 percent of its books by men and 45 > percent by women. Random House came in second, with 37 percent by women. It > was downhill from there, with three publishers scoring around 30 > percent?Norton, Little Brown, and Haarper?and the rest 25 percent and below, > including the elite literaary houses Knopf (23 percent) and FSG (21 > percent). Harvard University Press, the sole academic press we considered, > came in at just 15 percent. > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, *As Landscape. > *$16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm > > > "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of > particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through > every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? > fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the > more they seem to contain? One can hear echoes from all the various > ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. > His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical > threnody?[it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a > personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." > > M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. > http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Feb 8 17:10:46 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 17:10:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On In-Reply-To: References: <241764.34908.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <906267.6592.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4D5074E6.8040800@nut-n-but.net> <512F8CB81F4C4516A8A228FF05CDAC4E@RobinLaptopPC> <4D50941F.2090502@nut-n-but.net> <8CD95EA16F106F4-7B0-2E76@webmail-m093.sysops.aol.com> <8CD95EC8A210469-7B0-31F1@webmail-m093.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Lord knows I try. At 05:08 PM 2/8/2011, you wrote: >Well, men could start writing less. That would be >the gentlemanly thing to do. >? ? ? > >"What does a? poet? need an? unlisted >? number? for?" >? ? ? ? ? ? ? --George Costanza > >Hal > >Halvard Johnson >================ > >halvard at gmail.com >http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >http://www.hamiltonstone.org >http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > >Mainly >Black,? >Obras >P??blicas;? >The >Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; >Organ >Harvest with Entrance of Clones;? >Tango >Bouquet;? >Theory >of Harmony;? >Rapsodie >espagnole;? >Guide >to the Tokyo Subway;? >The >Sonnet Project;? >G(e)nome;? >Winter >Journey;? >Eclipse;? >The Dance of the Red Swan; >Transparencies & Projections > > > > >On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 3:49 PM, Mark Weiss ><junction at earthlink.net> wrote: >Two things. While on the face of it this is >pretty awful, it would be helpful--essential, in >fact, for interpreting the findings--to know >what the gender divide is among submissions in >the various categories. I'm not doubting the >outcome, I'm saying without this >difficult-to-uncover data we don't really know >what the numbers mean. Although it seems >intuitively unlikely, it's entirely possible >that the situation is like that in wikiland, >where women simply don't appear to want into the game in equal numbers. >Second, self-help, cooking and art books are >reviewed much more copiously than all but >bestsellers in other genres, and the first two, >along with romance novels, are the most >profitable areas in publishing. They're also >overwhelmingly produced by women, just as crime >and science fiction are mostly male genres >(though I think we can all name important women >in the field). Rather than it seems to me >potentially skewing the results and discussing >only books in genres "we" take seriously, a >breakdown by genre would be helpful. > >A suggestion: I don't know much about >agents--hell, I'm a poet. The only one I know >personally is a woman. A gender breakdown of >agents would be useful, and they'd also be >useful for feedback, as for the larger presses they're the usual conduit. > >Once there's a firm sense of what the numbers >mean, there remains the problem of what to do about it. > >Best, > >Mark > >At 04:16 PM 2/8/2011, you wrote: >> From one of links Amy sent... >>http://www.tnr.com/article/books-and-arts/82930/VIDA-women-writers-magazines-book-reviews >> >>? >>We looked at fall 2010 catalogs from 13 >>publishing houses, big and small. Discarding >>the books that were unlikely to get >>reviewed??????self-help, cooking, art?we >>tallied ed up how many were by men andd how >>many were by women. Only one of the houses we >>investigated???thhe boutique Penguin imprint >>Riverhead?came close to parity, with 555 >>ppercent of its books by men and 45 percent by >>women. Random House came in second, with 37 >>percent by women. It was downhill from there, >>with three publishers scoring around 30 >>percent?Norton, Little Brown, and Haarper?and >>the rest 25 percent and below, including the >>elite liteeraary houses Knopf (23 percent) and >>FSG (21 percent). Harvard University Press, the >>sole academic press we considered, came in at just 15 percent. >> >> >>? >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > >New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. >$16.? Order from >http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm >? >? >"What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a >lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the >poet alive in every sense of the word, and >through every one of his senses. Instead of >missing a beat or a part, Weiss??? fragments are >like Chekhov???s short stories??the more that >gets left out, the more they seem to contain >One can hear echoes from all thhe various >ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its >core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the >fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a >pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not >only into a mind, but a person, a personality, >this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." >? >M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. >http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jschickl at hotmail.com Tue Feb 8 17:42:27 2011 From: jschickl at hotmail.com (Jared Schickling) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 15:42:27 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] the pie charts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Finnegan, What you say makes sense at first glance re high circulation venues viz. awards and jobs. However, Bob has a point insofar as the stats reveal far less than they're meant to. They don't reveal the correlation you're indicating. The stats have in the past looked at gender disparities re literary awards (if I'm remembering right), so point taken there. But the real, pertinent question would seem to be equity re jobs and the corresponding pay. A look at gender equity within English departments would seem a must, itemizing the rank and file therein. Also, it would seem necessary to, somehow, someway, look at the submissions and solicitations of whatever targeted publishing venues. Because, as we saw with the article on Wikipedia, gender disparities could be accounted for by virtue of the kinds of authors seeking publication in particular venues. And I would agree with Murat N-J's point on the poetics list that if gender disparity in publication occurs alongside a marked disparity in who's submitting, well, it would seem up to the one desiring representation to actually seek it... Furthermore it would be interesting to count the sex of submissions to whatever venues alongside rates of acceptance...a look at thosee percentages...it's entirely possible (in light of the Wikipedia article) that there's much more equity than the rhetoric framing The Count. Key word is "possible," because we don't know, do we? Point is, the stats don't go very far. In fact, they're almost dead in the water. The more I think of what's left out, of how superficial the information is, in light of the heading "the numbers don't lie" over at VIDA, the count seems misleading and not especially insightful. Seems like a first step in what should be a marathon research endeavor, that is, if it seeks substance. I'd even bet the targeted venues, who surely keep meticulous submissions records, would open their archives to whomever walks in with a funded inquiry, and I'll bet those funds are available. Jared > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 15:58:36 -0500 > From: jforjames at aol.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On > Message-ID: <8CD95EA16F106F4-7B0-2E76 at webmail-m093.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > Bob, dragging Steele and Rowlings into this discussion is being a bit obtuse. The VIDA survey is pretty straightforward (and telling): It took a sample of leading literary publications (not novel sales), tallied & created graphical gender divisions. They looked at the publications from two general perspectives, # by-lines or # of books reviewed. For most of the publications cited the results were shown to be heavily skewed toward men. The stats, as released, are not attempting drill down by genre...most of the publicatons cited publish a lot of articles and reviews. > > The sales of Rowlings and Steele or Jonathan Franzen for that matter or not relevant. Counting the novelists by gender that Random House/Knopf/FSG publishes year by year might be more related to what VIDA is trying to show. > > High-circulation literary magazines have influence on award-giving, job placement/advancement, etc...so it makes sense to focus on them. > > The message is pretty clear: Don't assume there is gender equality in literary publishing and author attention. My guess is this survey, as simple as it was, will have an influence on editors and their staffs, and within 2-3 years time we'll see them adding more women to the Contents pages of their publications. > Finnegan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Grumman > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Mon, Feb 7, 2011 7:53 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On > > > On 2/7/2011 6:17 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > >> I'm curious, Amy-- has the success of Steele or Rowling entered any >> of these discussions? > >> > >> --Bob > > > > Someone on the Guardian comment thread (which was partially censored > and is now closed, I believe) to their article picking up on the Vida > original mentioned J.K.Rowling, to the effect that (I'm paraphrasing > crudely) she used androgynous initials, implicitly read as male, to > start with, since otherwise she felt that boys wouldn't read her books. > > > > I'm slightly dubious about this as so much of the marketing of Harry > Potter (which is independent of the quality of the books, which I > quite liked) stressed the > single-mother-writing-great-books-while-living-on-benefits angle. But > who knows. > > > > I'm still not entirely sure about the nature of the graphs presented > in the original Vida piece, as they don't quite seem to equate in > terms of labelling, but that may just be me. > > > > Interesting that the discussion (is this actually the case?) of the > 13% Wiki piece (given a lot of space by the NYT) and the Vida Numbers > seem to be running independently. > > > > Oh yeah, what did strike me was in the Vida graphs, Poetry (Chicago) > stands out like a sore thumb (or a beacon?) from the rest of the > statistics. > > > > Odd that, but. > > > > Robin > > I haven't read anything about it except Amy's reports. Just curious about the fact that women seem to have authored a good number of best-sellers, and publishers and editors like the make money, so I have trouble thinking they would treat a female author differently from a male. But maybe in poetry. Anyway, hugely more complex than graphs make it seem to some, and too touchy a subject for anyone like me to get into. So I really have to stop posting about it! > > --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Feb 8 17:52:58 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 17:52:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On In-Reply-To: <8CD95EA16F106F4-7B0-2E76@webmail-m093.sysops.aol.com> References: <241764.34908.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><906267.6592.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4D5074E6.8040800@nut-n-but. net><512F8CB81F4C4516A8A228FF05CDAC4E@RobinLaptopPC><4D50941F.2090502@nut-n-but.net> <8CD95EA16F106F4-7B0-2E76@webmail-m093.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D51C94A.4040600@nut-n-but.net> On 2/8/2011 3:58 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: > > Bob, dragging Steele and Rowlings into this discussion is being a bit > obtuse. I don't see that. The premise is that women are going up against a gender-based bias. Showing the absence of such a bias anywhere is evidence against it. But I did say maybe in poetry publication it's different. Maybe in literary publication, as you say, it's different. So the chuzzlewits interested in money don't care what gender an author is, only the left-wing superior-to-money oafs in charge of high class literature do. > The VIDA survey is pretty straightforward (and telling): It took a > sample of leading literary publications (not novel sales), tallied & > created graphical gender divisions. They looked at the publications > from two general perspectives, # by-lines or # of books reviewed. For > most of the publications cited the results were shown to be heavily > skewed toward men. The stats, as released, are not attempting drill > down by genre...most of the publicatons cited publish a lot of > articles and reviews. > The sales of Rowlings and Steele or Jonathan Franzen for that matter > are not relevant. Counting the novelists by gender that Random > House/Knopf/FSG publishes year by year might be more related to what > VIDA is trying to show. And counting submitters by gender is not. > High-circulation literary magazines have influence on award-giving, > job placement/advancement, etc...so it makes sense to focus on them. > The message is pretty clear: Don't assume there is gender equality in > literary publishing and author attention. My guess is this survey, as > simple as it was, will have an influence on editors and their > staffs, and within 2-3 years time we'll see them adding more women to > the Contents pages of their publications. > Finnegan The important thing is that superior writers continue to be ignored. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Tue Feb 8 18:29:15 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 18:29:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the pie charts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CD95FF227E110F-1CA0-2BD7@webmail-m048.sysops.aol.com> Jared, I'm not sure what post by Bob you are referring to. I was responding to the irrelevant injection of Rowling's and Steele's sales figures into the discussion. I don't disgree more research and analysis might yield a better, fuller picture. I'm not certain tying the result back to submission % makes sense on a variety of levels. If, say, the Atlantic gets 1000 mss. by men. and 100 by women, one could say it makes sense that The Atlantic publishes only 10% women and 90% men. But that would ignore many real aspects of publication at that level. Solicitation would be self-reported and there is soft solicitation; quantity v. quality - the first 10 mss. of 100 are likely to be similar in quality to the first 10 mss. of 1000; and ultimately the power to accept/reject material is in hands an editorial team who make decision on how to shape the magazine they want to present to their readership, etc. So tying the VIDA numbers back to submissions may not be a very definitive measure. Drawing a direct links between stats from English departments (re faculty count, pay grade, and position) and the VIDA figures would not be easy. Lots of variables there. I think this aspect is more like a general premise for why looking at these numbers could be imporant: Because most would agree that publication credits/reviews (esp. high visibility ones) can help one get a job, get tenure, get departmental promotion, etc. I'm fuzzy on how things could be correlated more than in that general fashion. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Jared Schickling To: New Poetry List Sent: Tue, Feb 8, 2011 5:42 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the pie charts Finnegan, What you say makes sense at first glance re high circulation venues viz. awards and jobs. However, Bob has a point insofar as the stats reveal far less than they're meant to. They don't reveal the correlation you're indicating. The stats have in the past looked at gender disparities re literary awards (if I'm remembering right), so point taken there. But the real, pertinent question would seem to be equity re jobs and the corresponding pay. A look at gender equity within English departments would seem a must, itemizing the rank and file therein. Also, it would seem necessary to, somehow, someway, look at the submissions and solicitations of whatever targeted publishing venues. Because, as we saw with the article on Wikipedia, gender disparities could be accounted for by virtue of the kinds of authors seeking publication in particular venues. And I would agree with Murat N-J's point on the poetics list that if gender disparity in publication occurs alongside a marked disparity in who's submitting, well, it would seem up to the one desiring representation to actually seek it... Furthermore it would be interesting to count the sex of submissions to whatever venues alongside rates of acceptance...a look at thosee percentages...it's entirely possible (in light of the Wikipedia article) that there's much more equity than the rhetoric framing The Count. Key word is "possible," because we don't know, do we? Point is, the stats don't go very far. In fact, they're almost dead in the water. The more I think of what's left out, of how superficial the information is, in light of the heading "the numbers don't lie" over at VIDA, the count seems misleading and not especially insightful. Seems like a first step in what should be a marathon research endeavor, that is, if it seeks substance. I'd even bet the targeted venues, who surely keep meticulous submissions records, would open their archives to whomever walks in with a funded inquiry, and I'll bet those funds are available. Jared > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 15:58:36 -0500 > From: jforjames at aol.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On > Message-ID: <8CD95EA16F106F4-7B0-2E76 at webmail-m093.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > Bob, dragging Steele and Rowlings into this discussion is being a bit obtuse. The VIDA survey is pretty straightforward (and telling): It took a sample of leading literary publications (not novel sales), tallied & created graphical gender divisions. They looked at the publications from two general perspectives, # by-lines or # of books reviewed. For most of the publications cited the results were shown to be heavily skewed toward men. The stats, as released, are not attempting drill down by genre...most of the publicatons cited publish a lot of articles and reviews. > > The sales of Rowlings and Steele or Jonathan Franzen for that matter or not relevant. Counting the novelists by gender that Random House/Knopf/FSG publishes year by year might be more related to what VIDA is trying to show. > > High-circulation literary magazines have influence on award-giving, job placement/advancement, etc...so it makes sense to focus on them. > > The message is pretty clear: Don't assume there is gender equality in literary publishing and author attention. My guess is this survey, as simple as it was, will have an influence on editors and their staffs, and within 2-3 years time we'll see them adding more women to the Contents pages of their publications. > Finnegan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Grumman > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Mon, Feb 7, 2011 7:53 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On > > > On 2/7/2011 6:17 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > >> I'm curious, Amy-- has the success of Steele or Rowling entered any >> of these discussions? > >> > >> --Bob > > > > Someone on the Guardian comment thread (which was partially censored > and is now closed, I believe) to their article picking up on the Vida > original mentioned J.K.Rowling, to the effect that (I'm paraphrasing > crudely) she used androgynous initials, implicitly read as male, to > start with, since otherwise she felt that boys wouldn't read her books. > > > > I'm slightly dubious about this as so much of the marketing of Harry > Potter (which is independent of the quality of the books, which I > quite liked) stressed the > single-mother-writing-great-books-while-living-on-benefits angle. But > who knows. > > > > I'm still not entirely sure about the nature of the graphs presented > in the original Vida piece, as they don't quite seem to equate in > terms of labelling, but that may just be me. > > > > Interesting that the discussion (is this actually the case?) of the > 13% Wiki piece (given a lot of space by the NYT) and the Vida Numbers > seem to be running independently. > > > > Oh yeah, what did strike me was in the Vida graphs, Poetry (Chicago) > stands out like a sore thumb (or a beacon?) from the rest of the > statistics. > > > > Odd that, but. > > > > Robin > > I haven't read anything about it except Amy's reports. Just curious about the fact that women seem to have authored a good number of best-sellers, and publishers and editors like the make money, so I have trouble thinking they would treat a female author differently from a male. But maybe in poetry. Anyway, hugely more complex than graphs make it seem to some, and too touchy a subject for anyone like me to get into. So I really have to stop posting about it! > > --Bob = _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Tue Feb 8 18:46:49 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 18:46:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On In-Reply-To: <4D51C94A.4040600@nut-n-but.net> References: <241764.34908.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><906267.6592.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4D5074E6.8040800@nut-n-but.net><512F8CB81F4C4516A8A228FF05CDAC4E@RobinLaptopPC><4D50941F.2090502@nut-n-but.net><8CD95EA16F106F4-7B0-2E76@webmail-m093.sysops.aol.com> <4D51C94A.4040600@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <8CD9601964BAC49-1CA0-2FA4@webmail-m048.sysops.aol.com> The important thing is that superior writers continue to be ignored. --Bob -- Have you done any counting on the various VizPo venues? In a perfect world, 51% of those superior VizPoers would be women. Not representing well here: http://vizpocentral.blogspot.com/2009/05/list-of-visio-textual-artists.html And I know you hated to put Jenny Holzer on your list and left her fo last. Since VizPo is as much about image as word, we may have to inform the Guerilla Girls to look into the matter... http://www.guerillagirls.com/ I repeat, the sales figures of Rowlings and Steele are entirely out of bounds when it comes to what VIDA is trying to demonstrate. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry List Sent: Tue, Feb 8, 2011 5:52 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On On 2/8/2011 3:58 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: Bob, dragging Steele and Rowlings into this discussion is being a bit obtuse. I don't see that. The premise is that women are going up against a gender-based bias. Showing the absence of such a bias anywhere is evidence against it. But I did say maybe in poetry publication it's different. Maybe in literary publication, as you say, it's different. So the chuzzlewits interested in money don't care what gender an author is, only the left-wing superior-to-money oafs in charge of high class literature do. The VIDA survey is pretty straightforward (and telling): It took a sample of leading literary publications (not novel sales), tallied & created graphical gender divisions. They looked at the publications from two general perspectives, # by-lines or # of books reviewed. For most of the publications cited the results were shown to be heavily skewed toward men. The stats, as released, are not attempting drill down by genre...most of the publicatons cited publish a lot of articles and reviews. The sales of Rowlings and Steele or Jonathan Franzen for that matter are not relevant. Counting the novelists by gender that Random House/Knopf/FSG publishes year by year might be more related to what VIDA is trying to show. And counting submitters by gender is not. High-circulation literary magazines have influence on award-giving, job placement/advancement, etc...so it makes sense to focus on them. The message is pretty clear: Don't assume there is gender equality in literary publishing and author attention. My guess is this survey, as simple as it was, will have an influence on editors and their staffs, and within 2-3 years time we'll see them adding more women to the Contents pages of their publications. Finnegan The important thing is that superior writers continue to be ignored. --Bob _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Tue Feb 8 18:51:39 2011 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 15:51:39 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] the pie charts In-Reply-To: <8CD95FF227E110F-1CA0-2BD7@webmail-m048.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD95FF227E110F-1CA0-2BD7@webmail-m048.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Hi -- not paying too much (not going back to the archive or deleted msgs.), but there are some really damning studies -- that have been around for a while, long enough to be influential on future ones and no -- where are they now? no idea -- which show lots of interesting things, like 1) institutional sexism in English or Arts Departments or institutions of higher learning, reflected in their literary journal editing, selection of contributions, and self-selecting submissions (can't recall, but this led, in the 80s and 90s, to early solicitation policies which as we now see, are just as faulty), 2) that female professionals across disciplines are under more pressure to "prove" "qualifications" than their male PEERS (in education, position, publishing record) -- and are not preferred to those who can resort to "modesty" (men) because to actually insist on qualification is a subtle proof of lack of recognition in the field ("protesting too much") -- this study was originally about scientific journals / paper publication -- I think there's more anecdotal information about the combination of criticism / academic work & advancement of creative professionals, but I'm not sure about the studies. All best, and unemployed, Catherine Daly -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Tue Feb 8 18:52:52 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 17:52:52 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On In-Reply-To: <8CD9601964BAC49-1CA0-2FA4@webmail-m048.sysops.aol.com> References: <241764.34908.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <906267.6592.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4D5074E6.8040800@nut-n-but.net> <512F8CB81F4C4516A8A228FF05CDAC4E@RobinLaptopPC> <4D50941F.2090502@nut-n-but.net> <8CD95EA16F106F4-7B0-2E76@webmail-m093.sysops.aol.com> <4D51C94A.4040600@nut-n-but.net> <8CD9601964BAC49-1CA0-2FA4@webmail-m048.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Hate to say it, but I agree with Bob. Superior writers ought to be ignored. Leave them alone to do their work. "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home *Mainly Black , **Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ;* *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; * ***Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; * ***G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 5:46 PM, wrote: The important thing is that superior writers continue to be ignored. > > --Bob > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Feb 8 19:14:53 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 16:14:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] the pie charts In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <272116.19912.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I'm just in from a long drive home - all day. So my replies will likely be too short for anyone's tastes. C'est la vie. I'm also going to cut and paste from others replies elsewhere. Sue me. One of the main impetuses for the count was the nagging retort when we suspected that men were published / reviewed more often than men was something along the lines of "yeah, right." Vary the degree of animosity, and you've got reason to do some counting. Suspicions confirmed. And this was a first step. Clearly. ________________________________ From: Jared Schickling Point is, the stats don't go very far. In fact, they're almost dead in the water. The more I think of what's left out, of how superficial the information is, in light of the heading "the numbers don't lie" over at VIDA, the count seems misleading and not especially insightful. Seems like a first step in what should be a marathon research endeavor, that is, if it seeks substance. I'd even bet the targeted venues, who surely keep meticulous submissions records, would open their archives to whomever walks in with a funded inquiry, and I'll bet those funds are available. Carolyn Zaikowski's logical response posted at The Count (http://vidaweb.org/the-count-2010): I?m not an expert, but having studied statistics, it seems these numbers were compiled using the best possible methods and available information and should be taken in good faith for what they are worth. Statistics are not perfect and even the most careful statistics can only point to realities, not completely encompass them. So to everyone who is raising issues about the statistical methods, that?s fine, but in the process, please don?t lose sight of the reality beneath the surface of these graphs, a reality that anybody seriously involved in the writing world would have to go to great lengths to ignore or defend: Women are not encouraged to create, write, submit, or publish in a serious way. Men are encouraged to create, write, submit, and publish in a very serious way. This dynamic occurs both very subtly and very blatantly and it permeates all mainstream education, collective and individual psyches, the economy, politics, and culture. Based on these numbers, as well as common sense, it should not be surprising that men are submitting, publishing, and supporting each other, and that even the best women writers are being blown off. And it should be recognized that, generally, in the wonderful places where this is not happening, it is because people have engaged in consciousness raising and taken action. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Tue Feb 8 19:14:53 2011 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 18:14:53 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On In-Reply-To: References: <241764.34908.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <906267.6592.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4D5074E6.8040800@nut-n-but.net> <512F8CB81F4C4516A8A228FF05CDAC4E@RobinLaptopPC> <4D50941F.2090502@nut-n-but.net> <8CD95EA16F106F4-7B0-2E76@webmail-m093.sysops.aol.com> <4D51C94A.4040600@nut-n-but.net> <8CD9601964BAC49-1CA0-2FA4@webmail-m048.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <367BC2C7-7BA3-4348-AF24-F165EA50C7BF@ripon.edu> I've certainly been ignored a lot. A sign of my superiority, no doubt. =================== David Graham Grahamd at ripon.edu Home page: http://web.me.com/drjazz ==================== On Feb 8, 2011, at 5:53 PM, "Halvard Johnson" wrote: > Hate to say it, but I agree with Bob. > Superior writers ought to be ignored. > Leave them alone to do their work. > > > "What does a poet need an unlisted > number for?" > --George Costanza > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; > Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; > Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; > G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; > Transparencies & Projections > > > > > On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 5:46 PM, wrote: > > The important thing is that superior writers continue to be ignored. > > --Bob > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Tue Feb 8 19:09:39 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 19:09:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] AWP post mortems (blogosphere) Message-ID: <8CD9604C723B54B-1EF4-1F38@webmail-d044.sysops.aol.com> Here are few that I've noticed... http://aburningpatience.blogspot.com/ http://joshcorey.blogspot.com/ http://www.sbeasley.blogspot.com/ http://ofkells.blogspot.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Feb 8 19:19:02 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 16:19:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On In-Reply-To: <4D51C94A.4040600@nut-n-but.net> References: <241764.34908.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><906267.6592.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4D5074E6.8040800@nut-n-but. net><512F8CB81F4C4516A8A228FF05CDAC4E@RobinLaptopPC><4D50941F.2090502@nut-n-but.net> <8CD95EA16F106F4-7B0-2E76@webmail-m093.sysops.aol.com> <4D51C94A.4040600@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <561005.95729.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Unquantifiable bias is another consideration. How do attitudes play out when one's work is gendered? Content / subject-wise? When an author's name marks ones writing, etc.? Here ya go: The notes on my story consisted of two full single-spaced pages of text. It was savage. Among the first comments this editor (and I do not know who he or she is) offered: ?It?s quite a challenge for a writer of one sex to explore writing from the perspective of the opposite sex. Bev Vincent has not done a convincing job.? The protagonist in my story is a man. I?ll sit here for a few seconds while that sinks in. Me, the guy who?s pictured above, failed to do a convincing job of writing from the perspective of a man. ... The editor says: ?The story seems far too personal, introspective and emotional for a man . . . It is hard to imagine a fellow from a place like [the setting] uttering the following line.? The editor then provides three sentences from my story as examples. He or she continues, ?And I can?t think of many guys from [setting] who call home every Sunday afternoon to talk to their family? [Emphasis his or hers]. Another brilliant insight: ?Most men don?t think deeply about the dewy greenness of nature.? The ultimate conclusion: ?She [sic] needs to write more convincing [sic] from a man?s perspective.? I pause here to note that this was the most autobiographical story I?ve ever written, and all the things that the editor complained about were my real observations and my real thoughts cast into the mind of a fictional character participating in fictional events. I did, in fact, call home every Sunday afternoon to talk to my parents, while they were still alive. To compound his or her arrogance, the editor claims that my prose is ?overly elegant,? which is presumably his or her way of saying that a man would never write or think in elegant terms. Guess that means I write like a girl. --http://www.stephenking.com/forums/showthread.php/13988-Gender-bias-in-publishing ********* VIDA: Women in Literary Arts + Interviews Amy's Alias + http://amyking.org/ ******** ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need Mail bonding? Go to the Yahoo! Mail Q&A for great tips from Yahoo! Answers users. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396546091 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Feb 8 19:29:39 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 19:29:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On In-Reply-To: <8CD9601964BAC49-1CA0-2FA4@webmail-m048.sysops.aol.com> References: <241764.34908.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><906267.6592.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4D5074E6.8040800@nut-n-but. net><512F8CB81F4C4516A8A228FF05CDAC4E@RobinLaptopPC><4D50941F.2090502@nut-n-but.net><8CD95EA16F106F4-7B0-2E76@webmail-m093.syso ps.aol.com><4D51C94A.4040600@nut-n-but.net> <8CD9601964BAC49-1CA0-2FA4@webmail-m048.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D51DFF3.6050108@nut-n-but.net> On 2/8/2011 6:46 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: > The important thing is that superior writers continue to be ignored. > > --Bob > -- > Have you done any counting on the various VizPo venues? My impression is that visual poetry attracts very few women. It'd be interesting to work out why that is, but I'm absolutely sure that it has nothing to do with gender-bias. In a perfect world, 51% of those superior VizPoers would be women. In my perfect world, the work of 100% of the poets represented would be superior to that of all others who submitted work. (Jenny Holzer, by the way, has probably made well over 51% of the money made for their work by all the visual poets in our country in the past fifty years.) --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Feb 8 19:23:04 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 16:23:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] the pie charts In-Reply-To: <8CD95FF227E110F-1CA0-2BD7@webmail-m048.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD95FF227E110F-1CA0-2BD7@webmail-m048.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <805596.6844.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> One thing I'm finding interesting in the response / resistance to these numbers is how often the refrain enters that this study was unscientific, based on the assumption that we're done. I very clearly said this is the beginning of a conversation, not some radical finality. One guy went to the extreme and asked if we were all sitting around imagining a bunch of chauvanist editors smoking cigars to be throwing out all envelopes marked with Wendy and Becky. I replied to Joe that he had forgotten the voodoo dolls. We don't just imagine the editors; we make dolls of them. Jim, thanks for acknowledging the difficulties involved in gathering the next round of information. In fact, much of what has been suggested, nay, insisted upon is ridiculous. I highly doubt the magazines themselves record the submissions they receive. How would we ever get that info from them? But there is more. More to consider. More later, Amy ________________________________ From: "jforjames at aol.com" I don't disgree more research and analysis might yield a better, fuller picture. I'm not certain tying the result back to submission % makes sense on a variety of levels. If, say, the Atlantic gets 1000 mss. by men. and 100 by women, one could say it makes sense that The Atlantic publishes only 10% women and 90% men. But that would ignore many real aspects of publication at that level. Solicitation would be self-reported and there is soft solicitation; quantity v. quality - the first 10 mss. of 100 are likely to be similar in quality to the first 10 mss. of 1000; and ultimately the power to accept/reject material is in hands an editorial team who make decision on how to shape the magazine they want to present to their readership, etc. So tying the VIDA numbers back to submissions may not be a very definitive measure. Drawing a direct links between stats from English departments (re faculty count, pay grade, and position) and the VIDA figures would not be easy. Lots of variables there. I think this aspect is more like a general premise for why looking at these numbers could be imporant: Because most would agree that publication credits/reviews (esp. high visibility ones) can help one get a job, get tenure, get departmental promotion, etc. I'm fuzzy on how things could be correlated more than in that general fashion. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Tue Feb 8 19:28:42 2011 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 16:28:42 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] the pie charts In-Reply-To: <805596.6844.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <8CD95FF227E110F-1CA0-2BD7@webmail-m048.sysops.aol.com> <805596.6844.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: as an off-note, those with ungendered names DO fare differently... and there is further evidence that adopted/adapted monikers like "Katharine N. Hayles" versus (diminutive) "K. Nancy Hayles" have proven successful where the -- I refuse to be anecdotal on this because this is another avenue -- where is D. Nurske on this? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Feb 8 19:56:02 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 19:56:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the pie charts In-Reply-To: References: <8CD95FF227E110F- 1CA0-2BD7@webmail-m048.sysops.aol.com><805596.6844.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D51E622.405@nut-n-but.net> On 2/8/2011 7:28 PM, Catherine Daly wrote: > as an off-note, those with ungendered names DO fare differently... and > there is further evidence that adopted/adapted monikers like > "Katharine N. Hayles" versus (diminutive) "K. Nancy Hayles" have > proven successful where the -- I refuse to be anecdotal on this > because this is another avenue -- where is D. Nurske on this? > When I was a boy, I read only comic books that boys liked--except for Little Lulu. I couldn't understand what was wrong with me! As an adult I found out that Marj, or whatever the name was of the woman who created Little Lulu, did not do the Lulu comics, a man did. --Bob From junction at earthlink.net Tue Feb 8 19:51:13 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 19:51:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the pie charts In-Reply-To: <805596.6844.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <8CD95FF227E110F-1CA0-2BD7@webmail-m048.sysops.aol.com> <805596.6844.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: How about this going forward? Suggest to magazines and presses that they do keep such records. The response would in itself be informative, and if positive it would contaminate the data in ways we'd all like to see. I don't keep such records. As a one man band I simply don't have another hand available to write anything down. But anecdotally, overwhelmingly submissions to Junction Press have been from men. The inappropriatenss of almost all of the submissions, by folks who've never looked at any junction books, has been gender neutral. At 07:23 PM 2/8/2011, you wrote: >One thing I'm finding interesting in the >response / resistance to these numbers is how >often the refrain enters that this study was >unscientific, based on the assumption that we're >done. I very clearly said this is the beginning >of a conversation, not some radical >finality. One guy went to the extreme and asked >if we were all sitting around imagining a bunch >of chauvanist editors smoking cigars to be >throwing out all envelopes marked with Wendy and >Becky. I replied to Joe that he had forgotten >the voodoo dolls. We don't just imagine the editors; we make dolls of them. > >Jim, thanks for acknowledging the difficulties >involved in gathering the next round of >information. In fact, much of what has been >suggested, nay, insisted upon is ridiculous. I >highly doubt the magazines themselves record the >submissions they receive. How would we ever get that info from them? > >But there is more. More to consider. > >More later, > >Amy > > >From: "jforjames at aol.com" > >I don't disgree more research and analysis might >yield a better, fuller picture. I'm not certain >tying the result back to submission % makes sense on a variety of levels. >If, say, the Atlantic gets 1000 mss. by men. and >100 by women, one could say it makes sense that >The Atlantic publishes only 10% women and 90% >men. But that would ignore many real aspects of >publication at that level. Solicitation would be >self-reported and there is soft solicitation; >quantity v. quality - the first 10 mss. of 100 >are likely to be similar in quality to the first >10 mss. of 1000; and ultimately the power to >accept/reject material is in hands an editorial >team who make decision on how to shape the >magazine they want to present to their >readership, etc. So tying the VIDA numbers back >to submissions may not be a very definitive measure. > >Drawing a direct links between stats from >English departments (re faculty count, pay >grade, and position) and the VIDA figures would >not be easy. Lots of variables there. I think >this aspect is more like a general premise for >why looking at these numbers could be imporant: >Because most would agree that publication >credits/reviews (esp. high visibility ones) can >help one get a job, get tenure, get departmental >promotion, etc. I'm fuzzy on how things could be >correlated more than in that general fashion. >Finnegan > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From millb at aol.com Tue Feb 8 20:22:22 2011 From: millb at aol.com (Millicent Borges Accardi) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 20:22:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] the pie charts In-Reply-To: References: <8CD95FF227E110F-1CA0-2BD7@webmail-m048.sysops.aol.com><805596.6844.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CD960EEB3B7BBF-109C-13A90@web-mmc-d09.sysops.aol.com> I think that given the recent transition from paper submissions to electronic ones, it would be easy (or easier) to find out the gender of submissions at a limited number of publications. I would also suggest that journals and magazines early on DID keep files of submissions and the older ones could certainly be tracked. In fact, there exist, probably somewhere in a special collections library, the entire records from Poetry and The New Yorker if someone were up for a research project. Funny how we have come full circle, isn't it? I know residencies and many grants now have built-in components to their applications where one selects gender and race and ethnicity and sometimes sexual orientation. For those such things, there is a paper trail---if the entity chooses to release the information *that is. Millicent Borges Accardi -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry List Sent: Tue, Feb 8, 2011 4:51 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the pie charts How about this going forward? Suggest to magazines and presses that they do keep such records. The response would in itself be informative, and if positive it would contaminate the data in ways we'd all like to see. I don't keep such records. As a one man band I simply don't have another hand available to write anything down. But anecdotally, overwhelmingly submissions to Junction Press have been from men. The inappropriatenss of almost all of the submissions, by folks who've never looked at any junction books, has been gender neutral. At 07:23 PM 2/8/2011, you wrote: One thing I'm finding interesting in the response / resistance to these numbers is how often the refrain enters that this study was unscientific, based on the assumption that we're done. I very clearly said this is the beginning of a conversation, not some radical finality. One guy went to the extreme and asked if we were all sitting around imagining a bunch of chauvanist editors smoking cigars to be throwing out all envelopes marked with Wendy and Becky. I replied to Joe that he had forgotten the voodoo dolls. We don't just imagine the editors; we make dolls of them. Jim, thanks for acknowledging the difficulties involved in gathering the next round of information. In fact, much of what has been suggested, nay, insisted upon is ridiculous. I highly doubt the magazines themselves record the submissions they receive. How would we ever get that info from them? But there is more. More to consider. More later, Amy From: "jforjames at aol.com" I don't disgree more research and analysis might yield a better, fuller picture. I'm not certain tying the result back to submission % makes sense on a variety of levels. If, say, the Atlantic gets 1000 mss. by men. and 100 by women, one could say it makes sense that The Atlantic publishes only 10% women and 90% men. But that would ignore many real aspects of publication at that level. Solicitation would be self-reported and there is soft solicitation; quantity v. quality - the first 10 mss. of 100 are likely to be similar in quality to the first 10 mss. of 1000; and ultimately the power to accept/reject material is in hands an editorial team who make decision on how to shape the magazine they want to present to their readership, etc. So tying the VIDA numbers back to submissions may not be a very definitive measure. Drawing a direct links between stats from English departments (re faculty count, pay grade, and position) and the VIDA figures would not be easy. Lots of variables there. I think this aspect is more like a general premise for why looking at these numbers could be imporant: Because most would agree that publication credits/reviews (esp. high visibility ones) can help one get a job, get tenure, get departmental promotion, etc. I'm fuzzy on how things could be correlated more than in that general fashion. Finnegan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Feb 8 20:29:01 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 17:29:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] the pie charts -- Regarding finding worthwhile books to review In-Reply-To: References: <8CD95FF227E110F-1CA0-2BD7@webmail-m048.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <581775.56665.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Regarding finding worthwhile books to review - Wikipedia total number of books published for 1. United States (2008) 275,232 [3] 2. United Kingdom (2005) 206,000 [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_published_per_country_per_year Conservatively: Assume only 10% of those books were written by women. That's 40,000 English language books the journals we counted could choose from. Assume 25% of those books fell within the genres in which the journals we counted review. That's 10,000 titles from which to choose. Now check out how many books written by women that the review journals / mags actually reviewed - http://vidaweb.org/the-count-2010 ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Feb 8 20:30:56 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 17:30:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] the pie charts In-Reply-To: References: <8CD95FF227E110F-1CA0-2BD7@webmail-m048.sysops.aol.com> <805596.6844.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <771722.68956.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Honestly, Mark - I highly doubt editors would be willing to share those numbers. Or gather them to begin with. ********* VIDA: Women in Literary Arts + Interviews Amy's Alias + http://amyking.org/ ******** ____________________________________________________________________________________ It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Feb 8 20:35:15 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 17:35:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] the pie charts - Chritian Wiman responds @ Poetry Foundation In-Reply-To: References: <8CD95FF227E110F-1CA0-2BD7@webmail-m048.sysops.aol.com> <805596.6844.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <989732.25958.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2011/02/gender-publishing-and-poetry-magazine/ ********* VIDA: Women in Literary Arts + Interviews Amy's Alias + http://amyking.org/ ******** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Feb 8 20:41:25 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 20:41:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the pie charts - Chritian Wiman responds @ Poetry Foundation In-Reply-To: <989732.25958.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <8CD95FF227E110F-1CA0-2BD7@webmail-m048.sysops.aol.com> <805596.6844.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <989732.25958.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Interesting caveats. Poetry is more gender-diverse than many journals, but only 35% of their submissions are from women. At 08:35 PM 2/8/2011, you wrote: >http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2011/02/gender-publishing-and-poetry-magazine/ > > >********* >VIDA: Women in Literary Arts >+ Interviews > >Amy's Alias >+ http://amyking.org/ >******** > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Feb 8 20:34:15 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 17:34:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] the pie charts - NOT so subtle example of BIAS In-Reply-To: References: <8CD95FF227E110F-1CA0-2BD7@webmail-m048.sysops.aol.com> <805596.6844.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <950868.28010.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> "I'd be very surprised if the authorship of published books was 50/50. And while women are heavy readers, we know they are heavy readers of the kind of fiction that is not likely to be reviewed in the pages of the TLS." "The TLS is only interested in getting the best reviews of the most important books," Stothard continued. --http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/feb/04/research-male-writers-dominate-books-world 'THE BEST' / 'THE MOST IMPORTANT' - 'damned mob of scribbling women' - Hawthorne "There is not much future in men being friends with great women although it can be pleasant enough before it gets better or worse, and there is usually even less future with truly ambitious women writers." --Hemingway ********* VIDA: Women in Literary Arts + Interviews Amy's Alias + http://amyking.org/ ******** ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Sigauke at crc.losrios.edu Tue Feb 8 20:45:11 2011 From: Sigauke at crc.losrios.edu (Sigauke, Emmanuel) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 17:45:11 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] the pie charts - NOT so subtle example of BIAS In-Reply-To: <950868.28010.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <8CD95FF227E110F-1CA0-2BD7@webmail-m048.sysops.aol.com> <805596.6844.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> , <950868.28010.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <430E71B1EF479E419F77C6B0E605BBA15AF69DEF76@lrccd-exch08.LRCCD.ad.losrios.edu> lol, amy. ________________________________ From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of amy king [amyhappens at yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 5:34 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the pie charts - NOT so subtle example of BIAS "I'd be very surprised if the authorship of published books was 50/50. And while women are heavy readers, we know they are heavy readers of the kind of fiction that is not likely to be reviewed in the pages of the TLS." "The TLS is only interested in getting the best reviews of the most important books," Stothard continued. --http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/feb/04/research-male-writers-dominate-books-world 'THE BEST' / 'THE MOST IMPORTANT' - 'damned mob of scribbling women' - Hawthorne "There is not much future in men being friends with great women although it can be pleasant enough before it gets better or worse, and there is usually even less future with truly ambitious women writers." --Hemingway ********* VIDA: Women in Literary Arts + Interviews Amy's Alias + http://amyking.org/ ******** ________________________________ Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Feb 8 21:11:46 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 21:11:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the pie charts In-Reply-To: <771722.68956.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <8CD95FF227E110F-1CA0-2BD7@webmail-m048.sysops.aol.com> <805596.6844.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <771722.68956.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I don't think this is true, especially if the question came from someone with a study grant. If it is, you'll have to be content with statistics open to a great deal of speculative interpretation. For the record, Junction Press will have published 13 books by men and five by women by the end of this season. Looks bad, but here's the hidden information--not only have unsolicited submissions been overwhelmingly from men, but not a single male from whom I've asked for a manuscript refused, whereas five women did. I have no sure explanation for this, tho I suspect that preference for all-female presses plays a role (there are no declared all-male presses as far as I know), and perhaps my reputation as a demanding editor made some of the women shy away. For my Cuban anthology I solicitd translations from eight women and fourteen men. I really didn't think about it at the time--I was drawing on the pool of people I had a chance of getting, since everyone worked for love. Best, Mark At 08:30 PM 2/8/2011, you wrote: >Honestly, Mark - I highly doubt editors would be >willing to share those numbers. Or gather them to begin with. > > >********* >VIDA: Women in Literary Arts >+ Interviews > >Amy's Alias >+ http://amyking.org/ >******** > > > >Get >your own web address. >Have a HUGE year through >Yahoo! >Small Business. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Feb 8 21:15:13 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 21:15:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the pie charts In-Reply-To: References: <8CD95FF227E110F-1CA0-2BD7@webmail-m048.sysops.aol.com> <805596.6844.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <771722.68956.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: One pretty sure effect of the interest the VIDA statistics has provoked, including skepticism, is that a grant should be pretty easy to come by. Best, Mark At 09:11 PM 2/8/2011, you wrote: >I don't think this is true, especially if the >question came from someone with a study grant. >If it is, you'll have to be content with >statistics open to a great deal of speculative interpretation. > New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Tue Feb 8 21:47:34 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 21:47:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] the pie charts In-Reply-To: <8CD960EEB3B7BBF-109C-13A90@web-mmc-d09.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD95FF227E110F-1CA0-2BD7@webmail-m048.sysops.aol.com><805596.6844.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <8CD960EEB3B7BBF-109C-13A90@web-mmc-d09.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CD961AD6D980D3-1E14-623F@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> Maybe I don't know enough about the working of these major publications, but I had the impression they have networks of free lancers pitching them ideas for reviews/articles/essays (push) and at the same time the editors themselves solicit similar material (pull). And very little gets accepted at these magazines via an unsolicited submission. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Millicent Borges Accardi To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tue, Feb 8, 2011 8:22 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the pie charts I think that given the recent transition from paper submissions to electronic ones, it would be easy (or easier) to find out the gender of submissions at a limited number of publications. I would also suggest that journals and magazines early on DID keep files of submissions and the older ones could certainly be tracked. In fact, there exist, probably somewhere in a special collections library, the entire records from Poetry and The New Yorker if someone were up for a research project. Funny how we have come full circle, isn't it? I know residencies and many grants now have built-in components to their applications where one selects gender and race and ethnicity and sometimes sexual orientation. For those such things, there is a paper trail---if the entity chooses to release the information *that is. Millicent Borges Accardi -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry List Sent: Tue, Feb 8, 2011 4:51 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the pie charts How about this going forward? Suggest to magazines and presses that they do keep such records. The response would in itself be informative, and if positive it would contaminate the data in ways we'd all like to see. I don't keep such records. As a one man band I simply don't have another hand available to write anything down. But anecdotally, overwhelmingly submissions to Junction Press have been from men. The inappropriatenss of almost all of the submissions, by folks who've never looked at any junction books, has been gender neutral. At 07:23 PM 2/8/2011, you wrote: One thing I'm finding interesting in the response / resistance to these numbers is how often the refrain enters that this study was unscientific, based on the assumption that we're done. I very clearly said this is the beginning of a conversation, not some radical finality. One guy went to the extreme and asked if we were all sitting around imagining a bunch of chauvanist editors smoking cigars to be throwing out all envelopes marked with Wendy and Becky. I replied to Joe that he had forgotten the voodoo dolls. We don't just imagine the editors; we make dolls of them. Jim, thanks for acknowledging the difficulties involved in gathering the next round of information. In fact, much of what has been suggested, nay, insisted upon is ridiculous. I highly doubt the magazines themselves record the submissions they receive. How would we ever get that info from them? But there is more. More to consider. More later, Amy From: "jforjames at aol.com" I don't disgree more research and analysis might yield a better, fuller picture. I'm not certain tying the result back to submission % makes sense on a variety of levels. If, say, the Atlantic gets 1000 mss. by men. and 100 by women, one could say it makes sense that The Atlantic publishes only 10% women and 90% men. But that would ignore many real aspects of publication at that level. Solicitation would be self-reported and there is soft solicitation; quantity v. quality - the first 10 mss. of 100 are likely to be similar in quality to the first 10 mss. of 1000; and ultimately the power to accept/reject material is in hands an editorial team who make decision on how to shape the magazine they want to present to their readership, etc. So tying the VIDA numbers back to submissions may not be a very definitive measure. Drawing a direct links between stats from English departments (re faculty count, pay grade, and position) and the VIDA figures would not be easy. Lots of variables there. I think this aspect is more like a general premise for why looking at these numbers could be imporant: Because most would agree that publication credits/reviews (esp. high visibility ones) can help one get a job, get tenure, get departmental promotion, etc. I'm fuzzy on how things could be correlated more than in that general fashion. Finnegan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Feb 8 23:12:39 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 20:12:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] PLEASE POST YOUR POEM FOR THE MARCH GOODREADS NEWSLETTER CONTEST! Message-ID: <396623.31486.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear Poets, Goodreads and the ?Poetry! group have partnered to create a contest in order to select a new poem each month for our newsletter. 1. Post your best poem (*one poem per person*) in this folder (as a "comment")** CLICK HERE to post your poem (do *NOT* send it to me!) --> http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/489836-please-post-your-poem-for-the-march-goodreads-newsletter-contest 2. Goodreads and our three judges, Wendy Babiak, Andrew Haley, and Ruth Bavetta, will select six poems as finalists to be voted on by the Goodreads community. 3. ?Poetry! group members will vote for the poem they like best (one vote per member). The poem with the most votes will be published in the Goodreads? newsletter ? distributed each month to more than 2.5 million people! Good luck & please post your best work! Thanks, Amy King ?Poetry! Moderator http://amyking.org ********* Amy's Alias + http://amyking.org/ ******** From jschickl at hotmail.com Tue Feb 8 23:17:15 2011 From: jschickl at hotmail.com (Jared Schickling) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 21:17:15 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] New-Poetry Digest, Vol 7, Issue 13 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: amy, the stats indicate that men are published in venues with large circulation more frequently than women. the stats indicate men are reviewed more frequently than women. they don't indicate more than that -- i.e. they don't indicate anything re the reasons for why this is the case which, for the count to achieve what it wants to achieve, it must do. indeed it's playing at statistical proof for an explicit critique of gender BIAS regarding REPRESENTATION as an intentional process (women are "blown off"), while the proof ain't there. the charge of "yeah, right" is empty, because the figures in light of the end to which they are being put are obtuse. carolyn writes about what the stats indicate, that "Women are not encouraged to create, write, submit, or publish in a serious way. Men are encouraged to create, write, submit, and publish in a very serious way. This dynamic occurs both very subtly and very blatantly and it permeates all mainstream education, collective and individual psyches, the economy, politics, and culture. Based on these numbers, as well as common sense, it should not be surprising that men are submitting, publishing, and supporting each other, and that even the best women writers are being blown off. And it should be recognized that, generally, in the wonderful places where this is not happening, it is because people have engaged in consciousness raising and taken action." the thing is, i'm not sure what the motivation is behind this count. get more women into the new yorker or threepenny. ok. then what? to what end? gender equity is a goal unto itself, yes; i repeat, lest it come up -- yes; but what systemic ramifications will it have? if we're merely talking more nancy pelosis or elizabeth alexanders, i guess i'm just not interested, because as much would seem flat and meaningless. in order to achieve gender equity, is systemic / structural reform / psychic realignment etc etc a necessary precondition or aftershock? in whichever case, why isn't the count project nor its voices going there? beyond the safe zone of gender representation? i mean, all this talk about publishing careers blah blah -- the war, unchecked consumerism, ecocatastrophe, late-stage indian genocide and forgotten treaties etc etc all at home on the campus, for gods' sakes -- second-wave feminisms made such connections explicit -- finnegan, as you were confused by some of my post, i'm also confused by some of the details you give. lol! but the general point -- awards and whatnot help the academic career -- but IF we found gender equity within English departments, then the problems we assume to be associated with the count would have to be reconsidered. personal experience can't be generalized, of course, however, as an anthropology and english student, i'd have to say i've had equal parts man woman for teachers. honest to god. in anthropology, the majority women, and all field work headed by women, and more than one in each case. my last english dept's rhet comp program, which prided itself on being at the forefront (whatever that means for rhet comp), was dominated by women, hands down. ALL of my lit teachers in grad school were women, fifty percent undergrad after counting on my fingers. majority of eng grad students women. majority of readers invited, women. the head of my current humanities dept is a woman, and we army of adjuncts split down the middle. perhaps i've been fortunate. regarding pubs not keeping records -- anywhere at large-scale, slef-sustaining operations where interns are deployed, absolutely, records are kept. current database software programs make it incredibly simple, and records can be organized into lists based on criteria specifications within minutes. for u-affiliated journals/presses, the data can be essential for funding. for publishers with six-figure budgets, they have their gift-seeking season for which letters must go out. how do you think submitting a poem to the new yorker or poetry magazine gets you oodles of little cards asking for your money? your name goes in, your contact info, your category as subscriber, submitter, donor, contest entrance and year, the genre of your submission, etc etc etc etc. the records exist, bet your booty. as for "the count" intending to go further as a valid scientific endeavor, all manifestations so far have had the same degree of superficiality. jared > From: new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 7, Issue 13 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 19:15:00 -0500 > > Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > You can reach the person managing the list at > new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On (Bob Grumman) > 2. Re: the pie charts (jforjames at aol.com) > 3. Re: The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On (jforjames at aol.com) > 4. Re: the pie charts (Catherine Daly) > 5. Re: The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On (Halvard Johnson) > 6. Re: the pie charts (amy king) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 17:52:58 -0500 > From: Bob Grumman > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On > Message-ID: <4D51C94A.4040600 at nut-n-but.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed" > > On 2/8/2011 3:58 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: > > > > Bob, dragging Steele and Rowlings into this discussion is being a bit > > obtuse. > I don't see that. The premise is that women are going up against a > gender-based bias. Showing the absence of such a bias anywhere is > evidence against it. But I did say maybe in poetry publication it's > different. Maybe in literary publication, as you say, it's different. > So the chuzzlewits interested in money don't care what gender an author > is, only the left-wing superior-to-money oafs in charge of high class > literature do. > > > > The VIDA survey is pretty straightforward (and telling): It took a > > sample of leading literary publications (not novel sales), tallied & > > created graphical gender divisions. They looked at the publications > > from two general perspectives, # by-lines or # of books reviewed. For > > most of the publications cited the results were shown to be heavily > > skewed toward men. The stats, as released, are not attempting drill > > down by genre...most of the publicatons cited publish a lot of > > articles and reviews. > > The sales of Rowlings and Steele or Jonathan Franzen for that matter > > are not relevant. Counting the novelists by gender that Random > > House/Knopf/FSG publishes year by year might be more related to what > > VIDA is trying to show. > And counting submitters by gender is not. > > High-circulation literary magazines have influence on award-giving, > > job placement/advancement, etc...so it makes sense to focus on them. > > The message is pretty clear: Don't assume there is gender equality in > > literary publishing and author attention. My guess is this survey, as > > simple as it was, will have an influence on editors and their > > staffs, and within 2-3 years time we'll see them adding more women to > > the Contents pages of their publications. > > Finnegan > > The important thing is that superior writers continue to be ignored. > > --Bob > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 18:29:15 -0500 > From: jforjames at aol.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the pie charts > Message-ID: <8CD95FF227E110F-1CA0-2BD7 at webmail-m048.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > Jared, I'm not sure what post by Bob you are referring to. I was responding to the irrelevant injection of Rowling's and Steele's sales figures into the discussion. > > I don't disgree more research and analysis might yield a better, fuller picture. I'm not certain tying the result back to submission % makes sense on a variety of levels. > If, say, the Atlantic gets 1000 mss. by men. and 100 by women, one could say it makes sense that The Atlantic publishes only 10% women and 90% men. But that would ignore many real aspects of publication at that level. Solicitation would be self-reported and there is soft solicitation; quantity v. quality - the first 10 mss. of 100 are likely to be similar in quality to the first 10 mss. of 1000; and ultimately the power to accept/reject material is in hands an editorial team who make decision on how to shape the magazine they want to present to their readership, etc. So tying the VIDA numbers back to submissions may not be a very definitive measure. > > Drawing a direct links between stats from English departments (re faculty count, pay grade, and position) and the VIDA figures would not be easy. Lots of variables there. I think this aspect is more like a general premise for why looking at these numbers could be imporant: Because most would agree that publication credits/reviews (esp. high visibility ones) can help one get a job, get tenure, get departmental promotion, etc. I'm fuzzy on how things could be correlated more than in that general fashion. > Finnegan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jared Schickling > To: New Poetry List > Sent: Tue, Feb 8, 2011 5:42 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the pie charts > > > Finnegan, > > What you say makes sense at first glance re high circulation venues viz. awards and jobs. However, Bob has a point insofar as the stats reveal far less than they're meant to. They don't reveal the correlation you're indicating. The stats have in the past looked at gender disparities re literary awards (if I'm remembering right), so point taken there. But the real, pertinent question would seem to be equity re jobs and the corresponding pay. A look at gender equity within English departments would seem a must, itemizing the rank and file therein. > > Also, it would seem necessary to, somehow, someway, look at the submissions and solicitations of whatever targeted publishing venues. Because, as we saw with the article on Wikipedia, gender disparities could be accounted for by virtue of the kinds of authors seeking publication in particular venues. And I would agree with Murat N-J's point on the poetics list that if gender disparity in publication occurs alongside a marked disparity in who's submitting, well, it would seem up to the one desiring representation to actually seek it... > > Furthermore it would be interesting to count the sex of submissions to whatever venues alongside rates of acceptance...a look at thosee percentages...it's entirely possible (in light of the Wikipedia article) that there's much more equity than the rhetoric framing The Count. Key word is "possible," because we don't know, do we? > > Point is, the stats don't go very far. In fact, they're almost dead in the water. The more I think of what's left out, of how superficial the information is, in light of the heading "the numbers don't lie" over at VIDA, the count seems misleading and not especially insightful. Seems like a first step in what should be a marathon research endeavor, that is, if it seeks substance. I'd even bet the targeted venues, who surely keep meticulous submissions records, would open their archives to whomever walks in with a funded inquiry, and I'll bet those funds are available. > > Jared > > > > > > Message: 4 > > Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 15:58:36 -0500 > > From: jforjames at aol.com > > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On > > Message-ID: <8CD95EA16F106F4-7B0-2E76 at webmail-m093.sysops.aol.com> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > > > > Bob, dragging Steele and Rowlings into this discussion is being a bit obtuse. The VIDA survey is pretty straightforward (and telling): It took a sample of leading literary publications (not novel sales), tallied & created graphical gender divisions. They looked at the publications from two general perspectives, # by-lines or # of books reviewed. For most of the publications cited the results were shown to be heavily skewed toward men. The stats, as released, are not attempting drill down by genre...most of the publicatons cited publish a lot of articles and reviews. > > > > The sales of Rowlings and Steele or Jonathan Franzen for that matter or not relevant. Counting the novelists by gender that Random House/Knopf/FSG publishes year by year might be more related to what VIDA is trying to show. > > > > High-circulation literary magazines have influence on award-giving, job placement/advancement, etc...so it makes sense to focus on them. > > > > The message is pretty clear: Don't assume there is gender equality in literary publishing and author attention. My guess is this survey, as simple as it was, will have an influence on editors and their staffs, and within 2-3 years time we'll see them adding more women to the Contents pages of their publications. > > Finnegan > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bob Grumman > > To: NewPoetry List > > Sent: Mon, Feb 7, 2011 7:53 pm > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On > > > > > > On 2/7/2011 6:17 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > >> I'm curious, Amy-- has the success of Steele or Rowling entered any >> of these discussions? > > >> > > >> --Bob > > > > > > Someone on the Guardian comment thread (which was partially censored > and is now closed, I believe) to their article picking up on the Vida > original mentioned J.K.Rowling, to the effect that (I'm paraphrasing > crudely) she used androgynous initials, implicitly read as male, to > start with, since otherwise she felt that boys wouldn't read her books. > > > > > > I'm slightly dubious about this as so much of the marketing of Harry > Potter (which is independent of the quality of the books, which I > quite liked) stressed the > single-mother-writing-great-books-while-living-on-benefits angle. But > who knows. > > > > > > I'm still not entirely sure about the nature of the graphs presented > in the original Vida piece, as they don't quite seem to equate in > terms of labelling, but that may just be me. > > > > > > Interesting that the discussion (is this actually the case?) of the > 13% Wiki piece (given a lot of space by the NYT) and the Vida Numbers > seem to be running independently. > > > > > > Oh yeah, what did strike me was in the Vida graphs, Poetry (Chicago) > stands out like a sore thumb (or a beacon?) from the rest of the > statistics. > > > > > > Odd that, but. > > > > > > Robin > > > > I haven't read anything about it except Amy's reports. Just curious about the fact that women seem to have authored a good number of best-sellers, and publishers and editors like the make money, so I have trouble thinking they would treat a female author differently from a male. But maybe in poetry. Anyway, hugely more complex than graphs make it seem to some, and too touchy a subject for anyone like me to get into. So I really have to stop posting about it! > > > > --Bob > > = > > _______________________________________________ > ew-Poetry mailing list > ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 18:46:49 -0500 > From: jforjames at aol.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On > Message-ID: <8CD9601964BAC49-1CA0-2FA4 at webmail-m048.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > The important thing is that superior writers continue to be ignored. > > --Bob > -- > Have you done any counting on the various VizPo venues? In a perfect world, 51% of those superior VizPoers would be women. > Not representing well here: > http://vizpocentral.blogspot.com/2009/05/list-of-visio-textual-artists.html > And I know you hated to put Jenny Holzer on your list and left her fo last. > Since VizPo is as much about image as word, we may have to inform the Guerilla Girls to look into the matter... > http://www.guerillagirls.com/ > > I repeat, the sales figures of Rowlings and Steele are entirely out of bounds when it comes to what VIDA is trying to demonstrate. > > Finnegan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Grumman > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Tue, Feb 8, 2011 5:52 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On > > > On 2/8/2011 3:58 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: > > Bob, dragging Steele and Rowlings into this discussion is being a bit obtuse. > I don't see that. The premise is that women are going up against a gender-based bias. Showing the absence of such a bias anywhere is evidence against it. But I did say maybe in poetry publication it's different. Maybe in literary publication, as you say, it's different. So the chuzzlewits interested in money don't care what gender an author is, only the left-wing superior-to-money oafs in charge of high class literature do. > > > > The VIDA survey is pretty straightforward (and telling): It took a sample of leading literary publications (not novel sales), tallied & created graphical gender divisions. They looked at the publications from two general perspectives, # by-lines or # of books reviewed. For most of the publications cited the results were shown to be heavily skewed toward men. The stats, as released, are not attempting drill down by genre...most of the publicatons cited publish a lot of articles and reviews. > > The sales of Rowlings and Steele or Jonathan Franzen for that matter are not relevant. Counting the novelists by gender that Random House/Knopf/FSG publishes year by year might be more related to what VIDA is trying to show. > And counting submitters by gender is not. > > > High-circulation literary magazines have influence on award-giving, job placement/advancement, etc...so it makes sense to focus on them. > > The message is pretty clear: Don't assume there is gender equality in literary publishing and author attention. My guess is this survey, as simple as it was, will have an influence on editors and their staffs, and within 2-3 years time we'll see them adding more women to the Contents pages of their publications. > Finnegan > > > The important thing is that superior writers continue to be ignored. > > --Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > ew-Poetry mailing list > ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 15:51:39 -0800 > From: Catherine Daly > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the pie charts > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hi -- not paying too much (not going back to the archive or deleted msgs.), > but there are some really damning studies -- that have been around for a > while, long enough to be influential on future ones and no -- where are they > now? no idea -- which show lots of interesting things, like 1) > institutional sexism in English or Arts Departments or institutions of > higher learning, reflected in their literary journal editing, selection of > contributions, and self-selecting submissions (can't recall, but this led, > in the 80s and 90s, to early solicitation policies which as we now see, are > just as faulty), 2) that female professionals across disciplines are under > more pressure to "prove" "qualifications" than their male PEERS (in > education, position, publishing record) -- and are not preferred to those > who can resort to "modesty" (men) because to actually insist on > qualification is a subtle proof of lack of recognition in the field > ("protesting too much") -- this study was originally about scientific > journals / paper publication -- > > I think there's more anecdotal information about the combination of > criticism / academic work & advancement of creative professionals, but I'm > not sure about the studies. > > All best, and unemployed, > Catherine Daly > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 17:52:52 -0600 > From: Halvard Johnson > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Hate to say it, but I agree with Bob. > Superior writers ought to be ignored. > Leave them alone to do their work. > > > "What does a poet need an unlisted > number for?" > --George Costanza > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > *Mainly Black > , **Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other > Sonnets > ;* > *Organ Harvest with Entrance of > Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; * > ***Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo > Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; * > ***G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; > **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; > * > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 5:46 PM, wrote: > > The important thing is that superior writers continue to be ignored. > > > > --Bob > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 16:14:53 -0800 (PST) > From: amy king > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] the pie charts > Message-ID: <272116.19912.qm at web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > > I'm just in from a long drive home - all day. So my replies will likely be too > short for anyone's tastes. C'est la vie. I'm also going to cut and paste from > others replies elsewhere. Sue me. > > > One of the main impetuses for the count was the nagging retort when we suspected > that men were published / reviewed more often than men was something along the > lines of "yeah, right." Vary the degree of animosity, and you've got reason to > do some counting. Suspicions confirmed. And this was a first step. Clearly. > > > > > ________________________________ > From: Jared Schickling > > Point is, the stats don't go very far. In fact, they're almost dead in the > water. The more I think of what's left out, of how superficial the information > is, in light of the heading "the numbers don't lie" over at VIDA, the count > seems misleading and not especially insightful. Seems like a first step in what > should be a marathon research endeavor, that is, if it seeks substance. I'd > even bet the targeted venues, who surely keep meticulous submissions records, > would open their archives to whomever walks in with a funded inquiry, and I'll > bet those funds are available. > > > > > Carolyn Zaikowski's logical response posted at The Count > (http://vidaweb.org/the-count-2010): > > I?m not an expert, but having studied statistics, it seems these numbers were > compiled using the best possible methods and available information and should > be taken in good faith for what they are worth. Statistics are not perfect and > even the most careful statistics can only point to realities, not completely > encompass them. So to everyone who is raising issues about the statistical > methods, that?s fine, but in the process, please don?t lose sight of the > reality beneath the surface of these graphs, a reality that anybody seriously > involved in the writing world would have to go to great lengths to ignore or > defend: Women are not encouraged to create, write, submit, or publish in a > serious way. Men are encouraged to create, write, submit, and publish in a > very serious way. This dynamic occurs both very subtly and very blatantly and > it permeates all mainstream education, collective and individual psyches, the > economy, politics, and culture. Based on these numbers, as well as common > sense, it should not be surprising that men are submitting, publishing, and > supporting each other, and that even the best women writers are being blown > off. And it should be recognized that, generally, in the wonderful places > where this is not happening, it is because people have engaged in > consciousness raising and taken action. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 7, Issue 13 > ***************************************** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Feb 8 23:55:35 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 20:55:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Response to Jared In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <492972.78799.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Jared wrote: "...they don't indicate anything re the reasons for why this is the case which, for the count to achieve what it wants to achieve, it must do. indeed it's playing at statistical proof for an explicit critique of gender BIAS regarding REPRESENTATION as an intentional process (women are "blown off"), while the proof ain't there. the charge of "yeah, right" is empty, because the figures in light of the end to which they are being put are obtuse." You've answered your own question, Jared. One of "the reasons" is to interrogate why this inequity exists. To start a conversation, as noted ad nauseum now. To query the causes. And to make people aware of this imbalance. No one has pretended that these numbers are conclusive. What conclusions do you think have been reached?? They were presented to start a conversation, said cause presented in the introduction. In that regard, The Count has "achieved what it wants to achieve" as you put it. Success, so far. If you don't think the number of articles and responses and posts and comments are evidence of response, of interrogation and curiosity and query and speculation and of people becoming aware of this particular publishing inequity, then I don't know what to tell you. In fact, the PR has quoted Cate Marvin as saying "No one is pointing fingers." People are asking questions, many valid ones: Are women submitting as much? If not, why not? What attitudes do editors hold regarding gender, etc. And frankly, I'm curious about your resistance to acknowledging this very transparent effort. I can't make the impetuses or the hope any clearer. Is the nature of your "argument" meant to distract? Position me to spend time defending against grandiose claims? When none have been made? Second, *you* have determined what you think presenting this evidence is "playing at" = "statistical proof" for an "explicit critique" ... Um, "Playing?" "Proof?" "Explicit critique?" Where do you see claims to any of these? Where is the final "critique" and how can we begin implementing it straight away? These are *your* conclusions, nay, proclamations of what you assume we're doing, despite what we've said, which is next to nothing as far as conclusions go. In fact, all signs point to the problem of "unquantifiable" bias via opening up discussion further. I.e. I know people hold attitudes towards writing that are gender-based, but I can't count them up. I can only point out specific instances and begin to ask how these things play out. Many on this list have already done as much. (i.e. James and someone else wondering how publishing plays into getting jobs, tenure, awards, etc. - it all ties in somehow). Next, the "yeah right" is the typical response to observations that men's books are more frequently reviewed and male authored articles outnumber women's. "Yeah, right. Plenty of women are published. We're all liberated now." The common refrain. So we counted to confirm our suspicions; said count revealed exactly what we thought: men's books are more frequently reviewed and male authored articles outnumber women's. Again, you jump to your own conclusions with what you think the numbers do. I mean, "play at" "statistical proof" of "explicit critique," etc. The critique and interrogation and flushing out the causes have only just begun. Jared wrote, "... the figures in light of the end to which they are being put are obtuse." Again, you're really making me wonder here, Jared, about your own motivations, which seem like thinly veiled attempts to just derail conversation. "Obtuse?" Regarding an "end" you have declared for us? Um, thanks for telling us what we're doing. Try telling everyone to stop talking now, then you'll be successful at ceasing what we're doing. As for the rest of what you wrote, I can't get into it just now. What do we want? I'm not sure equal numbers will solve anything. The bias is much more insidious than women writers just adopting sexist attitudes or becoming more aggressive, generally and abstractly speaking, in order to fit into the mainstream as it is now. Bev Vincent's case certainly illustrates that the whole shebang limits everyone. In case you missed it, I'll re-post it now and head to bed: The notes on my story consisted of two full single-spaced pages of text. It was savage. Among the first comments this editor (and I do not know who he or she is) offered: ?It?s quite a challenge for a writer of one sex to explore writing from the perspective of the opposite sex. Bev Vincent has not done a convincing job.? The protagonist in my story is a man. I?ll sit here for a few seconds while that sinks in. Me, the guy who?s pictured above, failed to do a convincing job of writing from the perspective of a man. ... The editor says: ?The story seems far too personal, introspective and emotional for a man . . . It is hard to imagine a fellow from a place like [the setting] uttering the following line.? The editor then provides three sentences from my story as examples. He or she continues, ?And I can?t think of many guys from [setting] who call home every Sunday afternoon to talk to their family? [Emphasis his or hers]. Another brilliant insight: ?Most men don?t think deeply about the dewy greenness of nature.? The ultimate conclusion: ?She [sic] needs to write more convincing [sic] from a man?s perspective.? I pause here to note that this was the most autobiographical story I?ve ever written, and all the things that the editor complained about were my real observations and my real thoughts cast into the mind of a fictional character participating in fictional events. I did, in fact, call home every Sunday afternoon to talk to my parents, while they were still alive. To compound his or her arrogance, the editor claims that my prose is ?overly elegant,? which is presumably his or her way of saying that a man would never write or think in elegant terms. Guess that means I write like a girl. --http://www.stephenking.com/forums/showthread.php/13988-Gender-bias-in-publishing ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't pick lemons. See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Wed Feb 9 00:09:46 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 21:09:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Response to Jared -- Ad Nauseum In-Reply-To: <492972.78799.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <492972.78799.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <405278.30658.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Jared, From the introduction, please point out where we've made your dramatic proclamations: "The Count - Introduction" found at http://vidaweb.org/the-count-2010 ?Numbers don?t lie.? ?What counts is the bottom line.? Such sayings sound definitive, like the dead-end of a boring story. But as these facts come to light?no longer imagined or guessed at?so does the truth of publishing disparities, the unfortunate footing from which we can begin to change the face of publishing. We are no longer guessing if the world is flat or round; we are wondering how to get from point A to B now that the rules of navigation are public and much clearer. Questions long denied will lead us to new awareness, to challenge current publishing practices, and to query the merits of selection on the level of individual publications and review journals alike. Please take a look. Scroll slowly. Notice the Red. Your favorite publication might be here. Atlantic? Boston Review? Granta? Harpers? London Review of Books? New Republic? New Yorker? NY Times Book Review? New York Review of Books? Poetry? Times Literary Supplement? And many more? The truth is, these numbers don?t lie. But that is just the beginning of this story. What, then, are they really telling us? We know women write. We know women read. It?s time to begin asking why the 2010 numbers don?t reflect those facts with any equity. Many have already begun speculating; more articles and groups are pointing out what our findings suggest: the numbers of articles and reviews simply don?t reflect how many women are actually writing. VIDA is here to help shape that discussion. Please tell us about the trends you?ve witnessed in your part of the writing world. Let us know what you think is going on. We?re ready and anxious to hear from you. We?re ready to invest our efforts and energy into the radical notion that women are writers too. - Amy King ________________________________ From: amy king Jared wrote: "...they don't indicate anything re the reasons for why this is the case which, for the count to achieve what it wants to achieve, it must do. indeed it's playing at statistical proof for an explicit critique of gender BIAS regarding REPRESENTATION as an intentional process (women are "blown off"), while the proof ain't there. the charge of "yeah, right" is empty, because the figures in light of the end to which they are being put are obtuse." You've answered your own question, Jared. One of "the reasons" is to interrogate why this inequity exists. To start a conversation, as noted ad nauseum now. To query the causes. And to make people aware of this imbalance. No one has pretended that these numbers are conclusive. What conclusions do you think have been reached?? They were presented to start a conversation, said cause presented in the introduction. In that regard, The Count has "achieved what it wants to achieve" as you put it. Success, so far. If you don't think the number of articles and responses and posts and comments are evidence of response, of interrogation and curiosity and query and speculation and of people becoming aware of this particular publishing inequity, then I don't know what to tell you. In fact, the PR has quoted Cate Marvin as saying "No one is pointing fingers." People are asking questions, many valid ones: Are women submitting as much? If not, why not? What attitudes do editors hold regarding gender, etc. And frankly, I'm curious about your resistance to acknowledging this very transparent effort. I can't make the impetuses or the hope any clearer. Is the nature of your "argument" meant to distract? Position me to spend time defending against grandiose claims? When none have been made? Second, *you* have determined what you think presenting this evidence is "playing at" = "statistical proof" for an "explicit critique" ... Um, "Playing?" "Proof?" "Explicit critique?" Where do you see claims to any of these? Where is the final "critique" and how can we begin implementing it straight away? These are *your* conclusions, nay, proclamations of what you assume we're doing, despite what we've said, which is next to nothing as far as conclusions go. In fact, all signs point to the problem of "unquantifiable" bias via opening up discussion further. I.e. I know people hold attitudes towards writing that are gender-based, but I can't count them up. I can only point out specific instances and begin to ask how these things play out. Many on this list have already done as much. (i.e. James and someone else wondering how publishing plays into getting jobs, tenure, awards, etc. - it all ties in somehow). Next, the "yeah right" is the typical response to observations that men's books are more frequently reviewed and male authored articles outnumber women's. "Yeah, right. Plenty of women are published. We're all liberated now." The common refrain. So we counted to confirm our suspicions; said count revealed exactly what we thought: men's books are more frequently reviewed and male authored articles outnumber women's. Again, you jump to your own conclusions with what you think the numbers do. I mean, "play at" "statistical proof" of "explicit critique," etc. The critique and interrogation and flushing out the causes have only just begun. Jared wrote, "... the figures in light of the end to which they are being put are obtuse." Again, you're really making me wonder here, Jared, about your own motivations, which seem like thinly veiled attempts to just derail conversation. "Obtuse?" Regarding an "end" you have declared for us? Um, thanks for telling us what we're doing. Try telling everyone to stop talking now, then you'll be successful at ceasing what we're doing. As for the rest of what you wrote, I can't get into it just now. What do we want? I'm not sure equal numbers will solve anything. The bias is much more insidious than women writers just adopting sexist attitudes or becoming more aggressive, generally and abstractly speaking, in order to fit into the mainstream as it is now. Bev Vincent's case certainly illustrates that the whole shebang limits everyone. In case you missed it, I'll re-post it now and head to bed: The notes on my story consisted of two full single-spaced pages of text. It was savage. Among the first comments this editor (and I do not know who he or she is) offered: ?It?s quite a challenge for a writer of one sex to explore writing from the perspective of the opposite sex. Bev Vincent has not done a convincing job.? The protagonist in my story is a man. I?ll sit here for a few seconds while that sinks in. Me, the guy who?s pictured above, failed to do a convincing job of writing from the perspective of a man. ... The editor says: ?The story seems far too personal, introspective and emotional for a man . . . It is hard to imagine a fellow from a place like [the setting] uttering the following line.? The editor then provides three sentences from my story as examples. He or she continues, ?And I can?t think of many guys from [setting] who call home every Sunday afternoon to talk to their family? [Emphasis his or hers]. Another brilliant insight: ?Most men don?t think deeply about the dewy greenness of nature.? The ultimate conclusion: ?She [sic] needs to write more convincing [sic] from a man?s perspective.? I pause here to note that this was the most autobiographical story I?ve ever written, and all the things that the editor complained about were my real observations and my real thoughts cast into the mind of a fictional character participating in fictional events. I did, in fact, call home every Sunday afternoon to talk to my parents, while they were still alive. To compound his or her arrogance, the editor claims that my prose is ?overly elegant,? which is presumably his or her way of saying that a man would never write or think in elegant terms. Guess that means I write like a girl. --http://www.stephenking.com/forums/showthread.php/13988-Gender-bias-in-publishing ____________________________________________________________________________________ TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From millb at aol.com Wed Feb 9 01:00:12 2011 From: millb at aol.com (Millicent Borges Accardi) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 01:00:12 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] AWP post mortems (blogosphere) In-Reply-To: <8CD9604C723B54B-1EF4-1F38@webmail-d044.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD9604C723B54B-1EF4-1F38@webmail-d044.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CD9635C001351A-109C-16351@web-mmc-d09.sysops.aol.com> Baring my soul Here is my entry into the foray of AWP recaps: http://millb.wordpress.com/ Please do not kill me if I offended you. Millicent -----Original Message----- From: jforjames To: new-poetry Sent: Tue, Feb 8, 2011 4:17 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] AWP post mortems (blogosphere) Here are few that I've noticed... http://aburningpatience.blogspot.com/ http://joshcorey.blogspot.com/ http://www.sbeasley.blogspot.com/ http://ofkells.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From almaginnes at aol.com Wed Feb 9 07:57:33 2011 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 07:57:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] AWP post mortems (blogosphere) In-Reply-To: <8CD9635C001351A-109C-16351@web-mmc-d09.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD9604C723B54B-1EF4-1F38@webmail-d044.sysops.aol.com> <8CD9635C001351A-109C-16351@web-mmc-d09.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CD96700D68C633-F18-1CCE@webmail-d030.sysops.aol.com> The thing has gotten so huge. I've read a number of blogs about the conference and it seems like it was six or seven conferences under the same roof. My first AWP was in 93. I think there were 300 people there. I remember we shared the hotel's conference facilities with a conference of nurses (guess which ones were smoking and scarfing the doughnuts?). -----Original Message----- From: Millicent Borges Accardi To: new-poetry Sent: Wed, Feb 9, 2011 1:00 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] AWP post mortems (blogosphere) Baring my soul Here is my entry into the foray of AWP recaps: http://millb.wordpress.com/ Please do not kill me if I offended you. Millicent -----Original Message----- From: jforjames To: new-poetry Sent: Tue, Feb 8, 2011 4:17 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] AWP post mortems (blogosphere) Here are few that I've noticed... http://aburningpatience.blogspot.com/ http://joshcorey.blogspot.com/ http://www.sbeasley.blogspot.com/ http://ofkells.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed Feb 9 08:36:41 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 14:36:41 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?windows-1252?q?=91To_fasten_words_again_to_visible?= =?windows-1252?q?_things=92=3A_the_American_imagetext?= Message-ID: Call for papers * ?To fasten words again to visible things?: the American imagetext * A two day conference held by the American Studies department at the University of East Anglia 18th-19th June 2011 When Ralph Waldo Emerson wrote that ?America is a poem in our eyes?, he was partly expressing the transcendental belief that words and images share a unique and ?radical correspondence? that might enable the poet ?to fasten words again to visible things.? Walt Whitman answered Emerson?s call for such a poet, cementing the special relationship that still exists in America between the written word and visual image. The burgeoning discipline of visual studies is perfectly placed to take the exploration of this relationship in new directions. However, there is at present a tendency in such studies to neglect the roots of language in pictures, and to overlook the importance of visual/textual relations to the expression of American character, culture and identity. Whilst the growth of visual studies is an exciting development, ?visual literacy? remains a nebulous and confusing term, and as a field of academic study, tends not to generate readings outside a tried and trusted sociological and ideological framework. There is a pressing need for scholarship in image ? text relations to be made more various, more theoretically adventurous and more culturally and historically penetrating, and for scholarship to place the study of contiguous images and texts in a much deeper cultural history of visual/verbal responses to film and theatre, to landscape and the built environment, to the visual and plastic arts, to contemporary considerations of mixed media texts, illustrated texts, illuminated manuscripts, and more. This conference invites speakers to consider the product and practice of the interrelations of image and word across disciplines, and in a specifically American context. We encourage a theoretical approach that considers, for example, any aspect of science, historiography, theology, iconology, art history, multicultural and transnational study, film and media studies, poetry scholarship, cognitive psychology. We are very pleased to confirm that our eminent keynote speakers are: Professor WJT Mitchell (University of Chicago) and Professor Miles Orvell (Temple University) Please send a one-page abstract for a 20-minute paper that may address, but not be restricted to, any of the following: - Naming and captioning - Reading the visual and verbal - The photographic essay or book - Graphic design; the graphic novel - Lettrism, Hypertexts ? fiction and poetry, concrete poetry - Environments and spaces of reception and display- eg the gallery, the museum, the classroom, the church, the home - Ekphrasis - Philosophy - Anthropology and archaeology - Literary use of the physical or imagined image - The use of verbal signs in the visual arts - Verbal and visual ontology - Illustrated texts ? fiction or non-fiction - Illuminated manuscripts - Artists? notebooks / scrapbooks - Performance and installation art - Iconography and iconology involving word and image - Image and text in digital media - Image and text in the visual arts, including theatre, film, photography and television - The manifesto as imagetext - Newspapers and broadsides - Street art and graffiti Please send abstracts to Dr Catherine Gander and Dr Sarah Garland at americanimagetext at gmail.com by February 28th 2011. Panel suggestions are also welcome. Conference participants may be encouraged to expand and revise their papers for submission to an edited collection of essays. Updates and details will soon be available at American-image-text.blogspot.com. -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed Feb 9 08:37:37 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 14:37:37 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Reading Nature Message-ID: Dear colleagues, Complutense University of Madrid and Friends of Thoreau Research Group UAH are pleased to announce the international conference *Reading Nature,* which will take place in Madrid, Spain, on December 14-16, 2011. Environmental disciplines have recently gained prominence due to the potentially devastating consequences of climate change: increasing natural disasters, the greenhouse effect, temperature variations, changing sea levels, etc. Such issues have raised awareness on the necessity for a drastic change in thinking. Ecocriticism?along with other green disciplines dealing with the relationship between society and the environment?places nature as the center of the intellectual debate. As Kate Rigby states, "culture constructs the prism through which we know nature." Reading Nature Conference aims to explore from a critical perspective how such a prism is constructed. International reputed experts, along with young scholars will examine the way in which different notions on nature and the environment are conveyed in cultural manifestations. *Confirmed Plenary Speakers*: Bill Mckibben (videoconferencing) (Middlebury College) Paul Waldau (Harvard University, Yale University, Tufts University) Phillip Terrie (Bowling Green State University) Mario Petrucci (Artist and Poet) Carmen Flys (Universidad de Alcal? de Henares) Mar?a Novo (Universidad Nacional de Educaci?n a Distancia) We invite* proposals* for papers on the following topics: - Ecopoetics: the rhetoric of environmentalism - Sense of place and identity - Reassessing ecocriticism: race, gender, sexuality and the environment - Transcending ecocriticism: ecofeminism and feminine geographies; ecotheology; postcolonial/transnational ecocriticism and global ecologies - Animal studies: literary, visual and cultural representations of animals in history and in contemporary society. Figuring animals as sentient beings. - Indigenous environmental aesthetics - Representations of 'wilderness' in Anglo-American culture; mythologizing and demythologizing nature in literature and the arts - Genre fiction and environmental representation: sciencie-fiction, gothic fiction, utopia, dystopia, narratives of apocalypse in all media - Disaster narratives and environmental concerns in current narrative discuourses: literature, media, and the arts - Writing/Representing climate change; popular perceptions of climate change - Ecology and Literary studies: methodological tools and theoretical perspectives - Other related topics For full details, see our call for paperson our website . Please feel free to forward this announcement to whoever may be interested. *The Organizing Committee:* Isabel Dur?n Gim?nez-Rico D?maso L?pez Garc?a Eduardo Valls Oyarz?n Claudia Alonso Recarte Mar?a Colom Jim?nez Rebeca Cordero S?nchez Rebeca Gualberto Valverde Noelia Malla Garc?a -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed Feb 9 08:34:25 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 14:34:25 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] DAMMING THE FLOOD HAITI AND THE POLITICS OF CONTAINMENT By PETER HALLWARD Message-ID: NEW EDITION: DAMMING THE FLOOD HAITI AND THE POLITICS OF CONTAINMENT By PETER HALLWARD ------------------------------- "A marvellous book...riveting and deeply-informed" -Noam Chomsky "Hallward's outstanding book is not just about Haiti, but about what it means to be a "leftist" today" - Slavoj Zizek, NEW STATESMAN "An excellent book ... the first accurate analysis of recent Haitian history, and of its history in the making."- Dr. Paul Farmer, Deputy UN Special Envoy to Haiti ------------------------------- DUBLIN EVENT: Peter Hallward will be giving a lecture entitles 'The Will of the People and the Struggle for Democracy' at Wood Quay Venue, Civic Offices, Dublin on Thursday, February 17th, 6 - 8pm http://ncadnews.u123.hosting365.ie/news/?p=246 ------------------------------- One year on from the devastating earthquake which hit Haiti in January 2010, political philosopher Peter Hallward's acclaimed DAMMING THE FLOOD is republished - updated and with a substantive new afterword covering the events of the last year in Haiti, the international response to the earthquake and the run-up to the recent presidential elections. Hallward shows how the international response to the 2010 earthquake has been a continuation of ongoing attempts by the US and other international forces to deny the Haitian people a democratic voice, with highly militarised international aid efforts prioritising political and security aims over humanitarian ones, to the cost of the majority of Haiti's people. Hallward argues that the primary function of the UN in post-quake Haiti has not been humanitarian relief, but "to pacify the Haitian people, and make them accept the coup and the end of their attempt to establish genuine democratic rule." Once the most lucrative European colony in the Caribbean, Haiti has long been one of the most divided and impoverished countries in the world. In the late 1980s a remarkable popular mobilization known as Lavalas, or "the flood," sought to liberate the island from decades of US-backed dictatorial rule. Led by President Jean-Bertrand Aristide, the Lavalas movement won landslide election victories in 1991 and 2000, and both times was overthrown by bloody military coups, backed by Aristide's enemies in Haiti and the US and France. Damming the Flood gives the definitive account of these events, and features a revealing and in-depth interview with Aristide, carried out after his exile from Haiti. The elaborate international campaign to contain, discredit and overthrow Lavalas, to protect Haiti's elites and to deny its people their voice has been perhaps the most successful act of imperial sabotage since the end of the Cold War. Its execution and its impact have much to teach anyone interested in the development of today's political struggles in Latin America and the rest of the post-colonial world. DAMMING THE FLOOD is both the definitive account of recent Haitian history and an illuminating analysis of the workings of twenty-first century imperialism. ------------------------------- Articles on Haiti by Peter Hallward: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/jan/13/our-role-in-haitis-plight http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/nov/23/haiti-shameful-un-betrayal http://www.newstatesman.com/international-politics/2010/02/essay-haiti-france-colonial ------------------------------- Praise for DAMMING THE FLOOD: "Very convincing, a marvellous book. This riveting and deeply-informed account should be carefully read by those who recognize that Haiti's tragic history is a microcosm of imperial savagery and heroic resistance - resistance which, as Hallward argues, will continue to shape Haiti's political future if its people are granted the opportunity to take their fate into their own hands." - NOAM CHOMSKY "Well organised, beautifully written and scholarly" - CHARTIST "Hallward's rigorously researched yet passionately polemical study finds all too little sign of seismic political change in the island state since the earthquake of 2010." - SCOTSMAN "DAMMING THE FLOOD is an excellent book, the best study of its kind. It offers the first accurate analysis of recent Haitian history, and of its history in the making...Hallward's new book is required reading for anyone who seeks to know Haiti and to understand the forces arrayed against all those who believe in genuine democracy."-Paul Farmer, Harvard University. ------------------------------ PETER HALLWARD is Professor of Modern European Philosophy at Kingston University. He is the author of several books including ABSOLUTELY POSTCOLONIAL, BADIOU: A SUBJECT TO TRUTH, OUT OF THIS WORLD: DELEUZE AND THE PHILOSOPHY OF CREATION, and DAMMING THE FLOOD. He writes regularly for publications including the GUARDIAN and NEW STATESMAN. -------------------------------- ISBN 978 1 84467 466 4 / $19.95 / ?12.99 / Paperback / 512 pages ------------------------------- -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Wed Feb 9 08:42:46 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 05:42:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] OT -- "Un-stalling" the VIDA conversation -- "Bitches be trippin'" Message-ID: <321697.75682.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> @ HTML Giant -- http://htmlgiant.com/random/bitches-be-trippin/ Thanks, Roxane Gay! ********* Amy's Alias + http://amyking.org/ ******** ____________________________________________________________________________________ It's here! Your new message! Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ From amyhappens at yahoo.com Wed Feb 9 08:47:58 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 05:47:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] AWP post mortems (blogosphere) In-Reply-To: <8CD9635C001351A-109C-16351@web-mmc-d09.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD9604C723B54B-1EF4-1F38@webmail-d044.sysops.aol.com> <8CD9635C001351A-109C-16351@web-mmc-d09.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <924791.51368.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Wow, thanks for this recap, Millicent! That final panel sounds like a waste of time. What the heck was it? Was the time an odd one? ________________________________ From: Millicent Borges Accardi http://millb.wordpress.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Wed Feb 9 08:50:00 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 06:50:00 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sol Literary Magazine invites submissions Message-ID: Sol Literary Magazine invites submissions of poetry, fiction, and non-fiction for its July issue. While the magazine favors writing from or about Mexico and Latin America, its general outlook is for excellent writing of any kind. The deadline for submissions is May 15th . Poetry submissions should be directed to: sollitpoetry at gmail.com Prose submissions to: solliterarymagazine at gmail.com Please consult the submission guidelines at http://solliterarymagazine.com/ as there are strict formatting requirements. We look forward to reading your work and will comment whenever possible. - James Cervantes, Poetry Editor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 9 09:03:54 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 09:03:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Elizabeth Bishop centennial Message-ID: <8CD967952467A01-1240-29A3@webmail-d002.sysops.aol.com> http://www.csmonitor.com/Books/chapter-and-verse/2011/0208/Elizabeth-Bishop-centennial Elizabeth Bishop centennial To celebrate the centennial of the birth of Elizabeth Bishop, some of her previously unpublished writing is being released. On her 100th birthday, Bishop is being honored as a major force in American poetry. By Danny Heitman / February 8, 2011 After 100 years, who couldn?t use a facelift? That seems to be the idea behind a new line of Elizabeth Bishop books being released today to mark the centennial of Bishop?s birth. The publishing project repackages material from previous books but also includes other material that hasn?t been brought between covers before. The book releases coincide with public celebrations of Bishop?s birthday centennial this week in New York City and Boston. Born in Worcester, Mass. on Feb. 8, 1911, Bishop had become known as one of America?s leading poets before her death in Boston on Oct. 6, 1979. Bishop also penned a number of prose pieces, including travelogue, and she was a boundlessly prolific letter writer, too. Farrar, Straus and Giroux is releasing three books today that hint at Bishop?s productivity across multiple genres. / -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carol.dorf at gmail.com Wed Feb 9 09:25:53 2011 From: carol.dorf at gmail.com (carol dorf) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 06:25:53 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response to Jared -- Ad Nauseum In-Reply-To: <405278.30658.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <492972.78799.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <405278.30658.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: This discussion sounds somewhat like the unwillingness of the police to keep traffic stop data by race. When African Americans have asked for that data, the police keep coming back to an argument of lack of resources. Yet both polls, and anecdotal evidence point to disparities in treatment. Fortunately the stakes for writers and publication/lack of publication aren't as high. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Wed Feb 9 09:33:18 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 09:33:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] OT -- "Un-stalling" the VIDA conversation -- "Bitches be trippin'" In-Reply-To: <321697.75682.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <321697.75682.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Most magazines, especially hardcopy magazines, don't have the luxury of waiting to publish until they have the balance they want, as one of the editors cited apparently does. And few editors have the leisure to even think about these things. This is truer the more established the magazine--if you're doing four issues a year and have committments to distributors the process is pretty much barely-controlled chaos. I'm suggesting that consciousness-raising among editors will work best at the least prominent publications, for purely practical reasons. If it turns out that, as at PANK and POETRY, the two that have volunteered statistics, the rate of submission by women across the industry is much lower (and here's where additional research would come in handy), then the solution has to be for more women to submit work. I don't know if that calls for major changes in child rearing practices, and without further research into why the disparity exists no one can know. But if it does require that sort of change aren't we looking at a couple of generations before things change significantly? Of course, things have changed significantly across most professions. Women apparently apply to graduate schools med schools and law schools in huge numbers and enter competitive and often hostile work environments in which they're often paid less than men after they graduate. One would think that requires a degree of assertiveness and considerable courage. Does putting a poem in an envelope require a greater amount or a different kind of courage in the face of possible indifference, incomprehension or hostility? More questions raised than answered, and a lot of hard work needed. Best, Mark At 08:42 AM 2/9/2011, you wrote: > @ HTML Giant -- http://htmlgiant.com/random/bitches-be-trippin/ > >Thanks, Roxane Gay! > > > > >********* >Amy's Alias >+ http://amyking.org/ >******** > > > > >____________________________________________________________________________________ >It's here! Your new message! >Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. >http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Wed Feb 9 09:38:30 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 09:38:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response to Jared -- Ad Nauseum In-Reply-To: References: <492972.78799.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <405278.30658.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: You're assuming a similar unwillingness by publishers. A great deal of the data is in fact probably available. But one has to ask. It's important to be reminded, as you have here, that the stakes are relatively minor. Best, Mark At 09:25 AM 2/9/2011, you wrote: >This discussion sounds somewhat like the >unwillingness of the police to keep traffic stop data by race. > >When African Americans have asked for that data, >the police keep coming back to an argument of lack of resources. > >Yet both polls, and anecdotal evidence point to disparities in treatment. > >Fortunately the stakes for writers and >publication/lack of publication aren't as high. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Wed Feb 9 10:39:46 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 15:39:46 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response to Jared -- Ad Nauseum In-Reply-To: References: , , <492972.78799.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>, <405278.30658.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>, , Message-ID: The stakes for individual writers may not be as high, but the stakes for the culture--women as a whole--are certainly as high, since what is written and read influences so much what is thought and acted--from laws on domestic partnership to patterns of traffic stops.... best, Sheila Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 09:38:30 -0500 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu From: junction at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Response to Jared -- Ad Nauseum You're assuming a similar unwillingness by publishers. A great deal of the data is in fact probably available. But one has to ask. It's important to be reminded, as you have here, that the stakes are relatively minor. Best, Mark At 09:25 AM 2/9/2011, you wrote: This discussion sounds somewhat like the unwillingness of the police to keep traffic stop data by race. When African Americans have asked for that data, the police keep coming back to an argument of lack of resources. Yet both polls, and anecdotal evidence point to disparities in treatment. Fortunately the stakes for writers and publication/lack of publication aren't as high. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain? One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody?[it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 9 10:58:04 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 10:58:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] rejections slips (man, that's harsh) Message-ID: <8CD9689452974F0-2B00-3BD9@webmail-d007.sysops.aol.com> "Your manuscript is both good and original; but the part that is good is not original, and the part that is original is not good." ?Samuel Johnson -- A rejection slip: ?This is too good for our readers.? --William Stafford, ?Aphorisms,? In Pieces: an anthology of fragmentary writing, edited by Olivia Dresher, Impassio Press 2008. -- And a few of mine... We take at face-value the information provided in your cover letter as proof you are a writer, but we could find no evidence of the fact in the work you submitted. We sorry to be slow returning your work, but it slipped through the cracks when we were putting together our ?intertextual? issue. If we were prone to being mean, we?d say your submission was a waste of a stamp. Nothing better than this has come across our desks in recent months, so it may be some time before we publish another issue. We sorry we cannot use your poems in our next issue. We have not returned the poems themselves, as they have been posted in the lunch room for the amusement of all in our office. When our theme is ?sloppy, sentimental poetry?, we hope you will submit again. This work, I assure you, was not rejected out hand. There was much belly-laughter and knee-slapping before we could compose ourselves and properly respond to your submission. Perhaps you were unaware that the ms. copy you sent to us already had a margin note on the last page, we quote: ?Timmy, this is shit. Love, Mom.? We question the wisdom of submitting poems to our publication that your own mother rejected. One of our intern readers, who granted is prone to scatological humor, said he could visualize the title of your poem on our ?table of incontinence?. We encourage you to continue writing?because what?s the harm in it? But submitting work; that we don?t advise. We are online publication so our printing costs are nil, but the thought of this text appearing anyone?s screen made our pixels crawl. Your electronic submission somehow went directly into my spam folder. Not to say my email software was wrong per se, but to give you some reason for this slow rejection notice. Shortly after reading your work we ceased publication. / -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jschickl at hotmail.com Wed Feb 9 10:59:56 2011 From: jschickl at hotmail.com (Jared Schickling) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 08:59:56 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] ad nauseum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Amy, yes, I read the article you posted, and the editor described sounds silly. Yes, you've begun a conversation -- albeit a safe one -- and the attention abounds. Congrats. But otherwise, I'm sorry, I just don't follow your logic. The numbers do lie when the VIDA Count says "the numbers don't lie" -- the "publishing practices" you assume the numbers indicate are in fact presumed. A very simple hypothetical example: If 80% of submissions to a given periodical are from men and 20% from women, and the periodical accepts 2% from its male slush and 2% from its female slush, then gender parity exists in terms of the publishing practices of that periodical, correct? Replace submission with solicitation and tweak the wording and the same principle applies. The numbers indicate very little re "practices." It's written: "Questions long denied will lead us to new awareness, to challenge current publishing practices, and to query the merits of selection on the level of individual publications and review journals alike." Quite obviously, to my ears, the project seeks to "challenge" certain "merits of selection" when as much has not been revealed, nor even looked into. To say "no one has pretended that these numbers are conclusive" sounds disingenuous. (i believe another well-known female writer pointed out as much in a similar situation some weeks ago on another list.) You missed my rather basic point about assuming a statistical correlation between publication / review / award and jobs. Count the sex of faculties and rank -- get the stats from both sides -- and THEN see what correlations can be pursued. Something like this/these would be a necessary move in terms of establishing the larger significance of the count. I'm not derailing the project. I'm wondering the dimensions of why it's important to get more women into the New Yorker et al -- a question which you explicitly state VIDA is avoiding -- "What do we want? I'm not sure equal numbers will solve anything" -- so the mere presences of X or Y in the "mainstream" is indeed superficial, yet the project contains social and cultural value? That the count is geared towards changing the "face" of publishing is an interesting choice of words. My apologies for suggesting you assume the burden of explaining "ad nauseum" what it's all about. jared > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 20:55:35 -0800 (PST) > From: amy king > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: [New-Poetry] Response to Jared > Message-ID: <492972.78799.qm at web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Jared wrote: > "...they don't indicate anything re the reasons for why this is the case which, > for the count to achieve what it wants to achieve, it must do. indeed it's > playing at statistical proof for an explicit critique of gender BIAS regarding > REPRESENTATION as an intentional process (women are "blown off"), while the > proof ain't there. the charge of "yeah, right" is empty, because the figures > in light of the end to which they are being put are obtuse." > > You've answered your own question, Jared. One of "the reasons" is to > interrogate why this inequity exists. To start a conversation, as noted ad > nauseum now. To query the causes. And to make people aware of this imbalance. > No one has pretended that these numbers are conclusive. What conclusions do you > think have been reached?? They were presented to start a conversation, said > cause presented in the introduction. In that regard, The Count has "achieved > what it wants to achieve" as you put it. Success, so far. If you don't think > the number of articles and responses and posts and comments are evidence of > response, of interrogation and curiosity and query and speculation and of people > becoming aware of this particular publishing inequity, then I don't know what to > tell you. In fact, the PR has quoted Cate Marvin as saying "No one is pointing > fingers." People are asking questions, many valid ones: Are women submitting > as much? If not, why not? What attitudes do editors hold regarding gender, > etc. And frankly, I'm curious about your resistance to acknowledging this very > transparent effort. I can't make the impetuses or the hope any clearer. Is the > nature of your "argument" meant to distract? Position me to spend time > defending against grandiose claims? When none have been made? > > > Second, *you* have determined what you think presenting this evidence is > "playing at" = "statistical proof" for an "explicit critique" ... Um, > "Playing?" "Proof?" "Explicit critique?" Where do you see claims to any of > these? Where is the final "critique" and how can we begin implementing it > straight away? These are *your* conclusions, nay, proclamations of what you > assume we're doing, despite what we've said, which is next to nothing as far as > conclusions go. In fact, all signs point to the problem of "unquantifiable" > bias via opening up discussion further. I.e. I know people hold attitudes > towards writing that are gender-based, but I can't count them up. I can only > point out specific instances and begin to ask how these things play out. Many > on this list have already done as much. (i.e. James and someone else wondering > how publishing plays into getting jobs, tenure, awards, etc. - it all ties in > somehow). > > > Next, the "yeah right" is the typical response to observations that men's books > are more frequently reviewed and male authored articles outnumber women's. > "Yeah, right. Plenty of women are published. We're all liberated now." The > common refrain. So we counted to confirm our suspicions; said count revealed > exactly what we thought: men's books are more frequently reviewed and male > authored articles outnumber women's. Again, you jump to your own conclusions > with what you think the numbers do. I mean, "play at" "statistical proof" of > "explicit critique," etc. The critique and interrogation and flushing out the > causes have only just begun. > > > Jared wrote, "... the figures in light of the end to which they are being put > are obtuse." Again, you're really making me wonder here, Jared, about your > own motivations, which seem like thinly veiled attempts to just derail > conversation. "Obtuse?" Regarding an "end" you have declared for us? Um, > thanks for telling us what we're doing. Try telling everyone to stop talking > now, then you'll be successful at ceasing what we're doing. > > > > > As for the rest of what you wrote, I can't get into it just now. What do we > want? I'm not sure equal numbers will solve anything. The bias is much more > insidious than women writers just adopting sexist attitudes or becoming more > aggressive, generally and abstractly speaking, in order to fit into the > mainstream as it is now. Bev Vincent's case certainly illustrates that the > whole shebang limits everyone. In case you missed it, I'll re-post it now and > head to bed: > > > > The notes on my story consisted of two full single-spaced pages of text. It > was savage. Among the first comments this editor (and I do not know who he or > she is) offered: ?It?s quite a challenge for a writer of one sex to explore > writing from the perspective of the opposite sex. Bev Vincent has not done a > convincing job.? > > The protagonist in my story is a man. > > I?ll sit here for a few seconds while that sinks in. > > Me, the guy who?s pictured above, failed to do a convincing job of writing from > the perspective of a man. > > ... > > The editor says: ?The story seems far too personal, introspective and > emotional for a man . . . It is hard to imagine a fellow from a place like [the > setting] uttering the following line.? The editor then provides three sentences > from my story as examples. He or she continues, ?And I can?t think of many guys > from [setting] who call home every Sunday afternoon to talk to their family? > [Emphasis his or hers]. Another brilliant insight: ?Most men don?t think deeply > about the dewy greenness of nature.? The ultimate conclusion: ?She [sic] needs > to write more convincing [sic] from a man?s perspective.? > > I pause here to note that this was the most autobiographical story I?ve ever > written, and all the things that the editor complained about were my real > observations and my real thoughts cast into the mind of a fictional character > participating in fictional events. I did, in fact, call home every Sunday > afternoon to talk to my parents, while they were still alive. > > To compound his or her arrogance, the editor claims that my prose is ?overly > elegant,? which is presumably his or her way of saying that a man would never > write or think in elegant terms. Guess that means I write like a girl. > > --http://www.stephenking.com/forums/showthread.php/13988-Gender-bias-in-publishing > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Don't pick lemons. > See all the new 2007 cars at Yahoo! Autos. > http://autos.yahoo.com/new_cars.html > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 21:09:46 -0800 (PST) > From: amy king > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Response to Jared -- Ad Nauseum > Message-ID: <405278.30658.qm at web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Jared, From the introduction, please point out where we've made your dramatic > proclamations: > > > "The Count - Introduction" found at http://vidaweb.org/the-count-2010 > > > ?Numbers don?t lie.? ?What counts is the bottom line.? > Such sayings sound definitive, like the dead-end of a boring story. But as > these facts come to light?no longer imagined or guessed at?so does the truth of > publishing disparities, the unfortunate footing from which we can begin to > change the face of publishing. We are no longer guessing if the world is flat > or round; we are wondering how to get from point A to B now that the rules of > navigation are public and much clearer. Questions long denied will lead us to > new awareness, to challenge current publishing practices, and to query the > merits of selection on the level of individual publications and review journals > alike. > > > > Please take a look. Scroll slowly. Notice the Red. Your favorite publication > might be here. Atlantic? Boston Review? Granta? Harpers? London Review of > Books? New Republic? New Yorker? NY Times Book Review? New York Review of > Books? Poetry? Times Literary Supplement? And many more? > > The truth is, these numbers don?t lie. But that is just the beginning of this > story. What, then, are they really telling us? We know women write. We know > women read. It?s time to begin asking why the 2010 numbers don?t reflect those > facts with any equity. Many have already begun speculating; more articles and > groups are pointing out what our findings suggest: the numbers of articles and > reviews simply don?t reflect how many women are actually writing. VIDA is here > to help shape that discussion. Please tell us about the trends you?ve > witnessed in your part of the writing world. Let us know what you think is going > on. We?re ready and anxious to hear from you. We?re ready to invest our > efforts and energy into the radical notion that women are writers too. > > - Amy King > > > ________________________________ > From: amy king > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Wed Feb 9 11:13:12 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 11:13:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response to Jared -- Ad Nauseum In-Reply-To: References: <492972.78799.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <405278.30658.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I was thinking about the stakes involved in the situation in Egypt, global warming and the nickle and dimed workers Barbara Ehrenreich writes about. It's a long list of catastrophes, compared to which the stakes here are relatively minor. Best, Mark At 10:39 AM 2/9/2011, you wrote: >The stakes for individual writers may not be as >high, but the stakes for the culture--women as a >whole--are certainly as high, since what is >written and read influences so much what is >thought and acted--from laws on domestic >partnership to patterns of traffic stops.... > >best, > >Sheila > >---------- >Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 09:38:30 -0500 >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >From: junction at earthlink.net >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Response to Jared -- Ad Nauseum > >You're assuming a similar unwillingness by >publishers. A great deal of the data is in fact >probably available. But one has to ask. > >It's important to be reminded, as you have here, >that the stakes are relatively minor. > >Best, > >Mark > >At 09:25 AM 2/9/2011, you wrote: >This discussion sounds somewhat like the >unwillingness of the police to keep traffic stop data by race. > >When African Americans have asked for that data, >the police keep coming back to an argument of lack of resources. > >Yet both polls, and anecdotal evidence point to disparities in treatment. > >Fortunately the stakes for writers and >publication/lack of publication aren't as high. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > >New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. >$16. Order from >http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm > > >"What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a >lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the >poet alive in every sense of the word, and >through every one of his senses. Instead of >missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are >like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets >left out, the more they seem to contain One can >hear echoes from all the various >ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its >core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the >fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a >pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not >only into a mind, but a person, a personality, >this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." > >M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. >http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Wed Feb 9 11:19:55 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 16:19:55 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response to Jared -- Ad Nauseum In-Reply-To: References: , , <492972.78799.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>, <405278.30658.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>, , , , Message-ID: Mark, I couldn't agree more. or perhaps to put it more clearly, the stakes here should always be considered in light of, in tandem with the stakes there--and they are not always. at all. for instance, too often such numbers counting stops far short of wanting any real re-making (or mounting any basic critque_ of how power functions--only that group protesting be in the same place as those presently in power-- i would--we all would, I think--hope for much more.... Best, Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 11:13:12 -0500 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu From: junction at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Response to Jared -- Ad Nauseum I was thinking about the stakes involved in the situation in Egypt, global warming and the nickle and dimed workers Barbara Ehrenreich writes about. It's a long list of catastrophes, compared to which the stakes here are relatively minor. Best, Mark At 10:39 AM 2/9/2011, you wrote: The stakes for individual writers may not be as high, but the stakes for the culture--women as a whole--are certainly as high, since what is written and read influences so much what is thought and acted--from laws on domestic partnership to patterns of traffic stops.... best, Sheila Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 09:38:30 -0500 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu From: junction at earthlink.net Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Response to Jared -- Ad Nauseum You're assuming a similar unwillingness by publishers. A great deal of the data is in fact probably available. But one has to ask. It's important to be reminded, as you have here, that the stakes are relatively minor. Best, Mark At 09:25 AM 2/9/2011, you wrote: This discussion sounds somewhat like the unwillingness of the police to keep traffic stop data by race. When African Americans have asked for that data, the police keep coming back to an argument of lack of resources. Yet both polls, and anecdotal evidence point to disparities in treatment. Fortunately the stakes for writers and publication/lack of publication aren't as high. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain? One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody?[it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain? One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody?[it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Wed Feb 9 11:51:31 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 11:51:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response to Jared -- Ad Nauseum In-Reply-To: References: <492972.78799.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <405278.30658.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'd add that hoping for better data and data analysis is not just a weird form of avoidance of the issues. I'd love to see the perrennial arguments resolved and action taken, if there's a practical way to take action. There's no point in going after editors for discrimination until we know what their slush looks like. Here's some personal stuff that may be useful. I actively submitted work from about 1970 to 1975. I also in that period did a poetry radio show, ran an important weekly reading series, published my first book and edited a magazine. Then close to total silence, as far as the world knew, for ten years, during which I was writing furiously and publishing almost nothing. What had happened? I inherited a child, went back to school and became a full-time psychiatric social worker (I had been adjunct teaching before). Between very active parenting and work I got to write only between 10pm and 2. I slept on weekends. And I had absolutely no time to worry about publishing. When some of this lifted I found myself in a world of unfamiliar journals, and it wasn't till the internet came along that I began submitting again (although I had in the interim published my second full collection) because it was easy. I still submit rarely--publication, after all those years of not worrying about it, has simply become less important to me. I was probably more active as a parent than my mate. This is unusual--generally the burden of child rearing still is borne mostly by women. In the early childhood years I suspect that it always will be. And most mothers now work as well. I wonder whether this has an impact on rates of submission by women (should the experience at Poetry and Pank turn out to be the norm), as it did on mine. Best, Mark At 11:19 AM 2/9/2011, you wrote: >Mark, I couldn't agree more. or perhaps to put >it more clearly, the stakes here should always >be considered in light of, in tandem with the >stakes there--and they are not always. at >all. for instance, too often such numbers >counting stops far short of wanting any >real re-making (or mounting any basic critque_ >of how power functions--only that group >protesting be in the same place as those presently in power-- > >i would--we all would, I think--hope for much more.... > > >Best, > > > > > >---------- >Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 11:13:12 -0500 >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >From: junction at earthlink.net >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Response to Jared -- Ad Nauseum > >I was thinking about the stakes involved in the >situation in Egypt, global warming and the >nickle and dimed workers Barbara Ehrenreich >writes about. It's a long list of catastrophes, >compared to which the stakes here are relatively minor. > >Best, > >Mark > >At 10:39 AM 2/9/2011, you wrote: >The stakes for individual writers may not be as >high, but the stakes for the culture--women as a >whole--are certainly as high, since what is >written and read influences so much what is >thought and acted--from laws on domestic >partnership to patterns of traffic stops.... > >best, > >Sheila > >---------- >Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 09:38:30 -0500 >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >From: junction at earthlink.net >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Response to Jared -- Ad Nauseum > >You're assuming a similar unwillingness by >publishers. A great deal of the data is in fact >probably available. But one has to ask. > >It's important to be reminded, as you have here, >that the stakes are relatively minor. > >Best, > >Mark > >At 09:25 AM 2/9/2011, you wrote: >This discussion sounds somewhat like the >unwillingness of the police to keep traffic stop data by race. >When African Americans have asked for that data, >the police keep coming back to an argument of lack of resources. >Yet both polls, and anecdotal evidence point to disparities in treatment. >Fortunately the stakes for writers and >publication/lack of publication aren't as high. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > >New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. >$16. Order from >http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm > > >"What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a >lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the >poet alive in every sense of the word, and >through every one of his senses. Instead of >missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are >like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets >left out, the more they seem to contain One can >hear echoes from all the various >ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its >core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the >fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a >pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not >only into a mind, but a person, a personality, >this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." > >M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. >http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > >New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. >$16. Order from >http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm > > >"What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a >lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the >poet alive in every sense of the word, and >through every one of his senses. Instead of >missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are >like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets >left out, the more they seem to contain One can >hear echoes from all the various >ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its >core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the >fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a >pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not >only into a mind, but a person, a personality, >this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." > >M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. >http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Wed Feb 9 11:08:04 2011 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 11:08:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] rejections slips (man, that's harsh) In-Reply-To: <8CD9689452974F0-2B00-3BD9@webmail-d007.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD9689452974F0-2B00-3BD9@webmail-d007.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: A favorite I heard from someone years ago: "When Hemingway couldn't write, he shot himself." --Jeff Newberry On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 10:58 AM, wrote: > "Your manuscript is both good and original; but the part that is good is > not original, and the part that is original is not good." > ?Samuel Johnson > -- > A rejection slip: ?This is too good for our readers.? > > --William Stafford, ?Aphorisms,? In Pieces: an anthology of fragmentary > writing, edited by Olivia Dresher, Impassio Press 2008. > > -- > And a few of mine... > > We take at face-value the information provided in your cover letter as > proof you are a writer, but we could find no evidence of the fact in the > work you submitted. > > We sorry to be slow returning your work, but it slipped through the cracks > when we were putting together our ?intertextual? issue. > > If we were prone to being mean, we?d say your submission was a waste of a > stamp. > > Nothing better than this has come across our desks in recent months, so it > may be some time before we publish another issue. > > We sorry we cannot use your poems in our next issue. We have not returned > the poems themselves, as they have been posted in the lunch room for the > amusement of all in our office. > > When our theme is ?sloppy, sentimental poetry?, we hope you will submit > again. > > This work, I assure you, was not rejected out hand. There was much > belly-laughter and knee-slapping before we could compose ourselves and > properly respond to your submission. > > Perhaps you were unaware that the ms. copy you sent to us already had a > margin note on the last page, we quote: ?Timmy, this is shit. Love, Mom.? We > question the wisdom of submitting poems to our publication that your own > mother rejected. > > One of our intern readers, who granted is prone to scatological humor, said > he could visualize the title of your poem on our ?table of incontinence?. > > We encourage you to continue writing?because what?s the harm in it? But > submitting work; that we don?t advise. > > We are online publication so our printing costs are nil, but the thought of > this text appearing anyone?s screen made our pixels crawl. > > Your electronic submission somehow went directly into my spam folder. Not > to say my email software was wrong per se, but to give you some reason for > this slow rejection notice. > > Shortly after reading your work we ceased publication. > > / > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Feb 9 12:17:33 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 12:17:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?windows-1252?q?=91To_fasten_words_again_to_visible?= =?windows-1252?q?_things=92=3A_the_American_imagetext?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D52CC2D.10204@nut-n-but.net> On 2/9/2011 8:36 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > Call for papers > > / ?To fasten words again to visible things?: the American imagetext / > > A two day conference held by the American Studies department at the > University of East Anglia > > 18^th -19^th June 2011 > I wish these people well, and I'm only going by the announcement you posted, Anny--although I /will /visit the website involved--but, yikes, it sounds like they're fifty years behind regarding what should be their central interest, visual poetry. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Feb 9 12:14:57 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 11:14:57 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] rejections slips (man, that's harsh) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Someone please correct my crumbling memory, but I seem to recall Flannery O'Connor quoting Henry James. As I recall it, when an aspiring author would send him a manuscript he would respond something like "you have taken an important subject & are treating it straightforwardly." This phrasing would usually please the author even while being the worst thing James could imagine saying about a piece of writing. On 2/9/11 10:08 AM, "Jeff Newberry" wrote: > A favorite I heard from someone years ago: > > "When Hemingway couldn't write, he shot himself." > > --Jeff Newberry > ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Feb 9 12:27:20 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 12:27:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] AWP post mortems (blogosphere) In-Reply-To: <924791.51368.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <8CD9604C723B54B-1EF4-1F38@webmail-d044.sysops.aol.com><8CD9635C001351A-109C-16351@web-mmc-d09.sysops.aol.com> <924791.51368.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D52CE78.1070003@nut-n-but.net> On 2/9/2011 8:47 AM, amy king wrote: > Wow, thanks for this recap, Millicent! That final panel sounds like a > waste of time. What the heck was it? Was the time an odd one? . Yes, excellent informative, entertaining summary, in spite of being by a woman. Now an outsider's question: what would someone sympathetic to these AWP affairs say was their greatest accomplishment? I don't think any literary conference I went to did anything important, although all were valuable to me for bringing a lot of people I know but hadn't met in person to one place. I do think a conference theoretically could do much more than that--for instance, bring the world-at-large's attention to some important poet. Or important hitherto unknown variety of poetry. Something like the Armory show for visual art. I can't think of any that ever did that. But I've never claimed to be very knowledgeable about contemporary literary history. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Feb 9 12:29:35 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 12:29:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Elizabeth Bishop centennial In-Reply-To: <8CD967952467A01-1240-29A3@webmail-d002.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD967952467A01-1240-29A3@webmail-d002.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D52CEFF.8080808@nut-n-but.net> Speaking of Elizabeth Bishop, does anyone know the title of the poem she wrote about the word, "and?" It has been one of the important poems in my life even though I never read it, only read about it. --Bob From junction at earthlink.net Wed Feb 9 12:34:31 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 12:34:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] AWP post mortems (blogosphere) In-Reply-To: <4D52CE78.1070003@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CD9604C723B54B-1EF4-1F38@webmail-d044.sysops.aol.com> <8CD9635C001351A-109C-16351@web-mmc-d09.sysops.aol.com> <924791.51368.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4D52CE78.1070003@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Closer to an Elks or a manufacturer's convention than to the Armory show, I'm afraid. At 12:27 PM 2/9/2011, you wrote: >On 2/9/2011 8:47 AM, amy king wrote: >>Wow, thanks for this recap, Millicent! That >>final panel sounds like a waste of time. What >>the heck was it? Was the time an odd one? >. >Yes, excellent informative, entertaining >summary, in spite of being by a woman. Now an >outsider's question: what would someone >sympathetic to these AWP affairs say was their >greatest accomplishment? I don't think any >literary conference I went to did anything >important, although all were valuable to me for >bringing a lot of people I know but hadn't met >in person to one place. I do think a conference >theoretically could do much more than that--for >instance, bring the world-at-large's attention >to some important poet. Or important hitherto >unknown variety of poetry. Something like the >Armory show for visual art. I can't think of >any that ever did that. But I've never claimed >to be very knowledgeable about contemporary literary history. > >--Bob > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Wed Feb 9 12:58:07 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 12:58:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response to Jared -- Ad Nauseum In-Reply-To: References: <492972.78799.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <405278.30658.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: A brief article in the Times about the striking disparity between numbers of men and women in science departments. http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/09/why-do-women-shun-science/?hp. Here as well there's no hard data to explain what's clearly there, but the career costs of raising children are a likely suspect. The proposed solutions are all things I'd love to see in any case, but they'd be very expensive, and this isn't the best of times to expect universities to fork over more cash. Here's something I don't know. Women in humanities departments are being hired at above parity with men, but presumably they have children at the same rate as women scientists. Is there something about the sciences that makes the results of fertility different? Best, Mark New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Wed Feb 9 12:54:43 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 10:54:43 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Numbers; was Re: Response to Jared -- Ad Nauseum Message-ID: Why not see what the tally was at The Salt River Review, I asked myself. In 13 years, we published: poetry by 125 males and 92 females fiction by 54 males and 53 females non-fiction & other prose by 10 males and 16 females for a grand total of writing by 189 males and 161 females - Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From millb at aol.com Wed Feb 9 13:04:14 2011 From: millb at aol.com (Millicent Borges Accardi) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 13:04:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] AWP post mortems (blogosphere) In-Reply-To: <8CD96700D68C633-F18-1CCE@webmail-d030.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD9604C723B54B-1EF4-1F38@webmail-d044.sysops.aol.com><8CD9635C001351A-109C-16351@web-mmc-d09.sysops.aol.com> <8CD96700D68C633-F18-1CCE@webmail-d030.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CD969AE4ED6057-1E48-2CC5@webmail-d076.sysops.aol.com> My first AWP was in Miami and everyone's names and addresses were printed in the ten page "program." I sat at a table with Yusef Komunyakaa, Donald Morrill, Mark Cox, Beckian Fitz-Goldberg and Marianne Boruch. I was probably the only grad student there. I'd gotten a $400 grant from the English Dept to attend. I was in awe. Millicent -----Original Message----- From: almaginnes To: new-poetry Sent: Wed, Feb 9, 2011 9:47 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] AWP post mortems (blogosphere) The thing has gotten so huge. I've read a number of blogs about the conference and it seems like it was six or seven conferences under the same roof. My first AWP was in 93. I think there were 300 people there. I remember we shared the hotel's conference facilities with a conference of nurses (guess which ones were smoking and scarfing the doughnuts?). -----Original Message----- From: Millicent Borges Accardi To: new-poetry Sent: Wed, Feb 9, 2011 1:00 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] AWP post mortems (blogosphere) Baring my soul Here is my entry into the foray of AWP recaps: http://millb.wordpress.com/ Please do not kill me if I offended you. Millicent -----Original Message----- From: jforjames To: new-poetry Sent: Tue, Feb 8, 2011 4:17 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] AWP post mortems (blogosphere) Here are few that I've noticed... http://aburningpatience.blogspot.com/ http://joshcorey.blogspot.com/ http://www.sbeasley.blogspot.com/ http://ofkells.blogspot.com/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cvoisine at nmsu.edu Wed Feb 9 13:36:10 2011 From: cvoisine at nmsu.edu (Connie Voisine) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 11:36:10 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response to Jared -- Ad Nauseum In-Reply-To: References: <492972.78799.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <405278.30658.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: dear mark my sister is a scientist--doing research is (at least) a 50 hour a week job and it mostly has to happen in the lab. and you can't do the research at night or in between things the way many humanities scholars who have children do. that's her answer. nothing to do with fertility. (i am willing to forgive you for that aside, since your previous aside about awp was so excellent.) connie On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 10:58 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > A brief article in the Times about the striking disparity between numbers of > men and women in science departments. > http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/09/why-do-women-shun-science/?hp > . > > Here as well there's no hard data to explain what's clearly there, but the > career costs of raising children are a likely suspect. The proposed > solutions are all things I'd love to see in any case, but they'd be very > expensive, and this isn't the best of times to expect universities to fork > over more cash. > > Here's something I don't know. Women in humanities departments are being > hired at above parity with men, but presumably they have children at the > same rate as women scientists. Is there something about the sciences that > makes the results of fertility different? > > Best, > > Mark > > > > > > New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. > $16.? Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm > > > "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of > particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through > every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? > fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the > more they seem to contain? One can hear echoes from all the various > ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. > His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical > threnody?[it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a > personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." > > M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. > http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Connie Voisine Associate Professor of English New Mexico State University cvoisine at nmsu.edu 575-646-2027 From seamascain at gmail.com Wed Feb 9 13:41:05 2011 From: seamascain at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9amas_Cain?=) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 12:41:05 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Codex Book Fair Message-ID: _____________________________________ The Codex Book Fair ... http://www.berkeleyside.com/2011/02/08/handmade-unique-books-at-codex-book-fair/ Handily yours, S?amas Cain http://www.saorsainn.net http://alazanto.org/seamascain http://seamascain-writernetwork.org http://www.mnartists.org/Seamas_Cain _____________________________________ From junction at earthlink.net Wed Feb 9 14:20:16 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 14:20:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response to Jared -- Ad Nauseum In-Reply-To: References: <492972.78799.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <405278.30658.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Fertility means birth-rate. It's the technical term. At 01:36 PM 2/9/2011, you wrote: >dear mark > >my sister is a scientist--doing research is (at least) a 50 hour a >week job and it mostly has to happen in the lab. > >and you can't do the research at night or in between things the way >many humanities scholars who have children do. > >that's her answer. > >nothing to do with fertility. (i am willing to forgive you for that >aside, since your previous aside about awp was so excellent.) > >connie > > > >On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 10:58 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > A brief article in the Times about the > striking disparity between numbers of > > men and women in science departments. > > http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/09/why-do-women-shun-science/?hp > > . > > > > Here as well there's no hard data to explain what's clearly there, but the > > career costs of raising children are a likely suspect. The proposed > > solutions are all things I'd love to see in any case, but they'd be very > > expensive, and this isn't the best of times to expect universities to fork > > over more cash. > > > > Here's something I don't know. Women in humanities departments are being > > hired at above parity with men, but presumably they have children at the > > same rate as women scientists. Is there something about the sciences that > > makes the results of fertility different? > > > > Best, > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. > > $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm > > > > > > "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of > > particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through > > every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? > > fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the > > more they seem to contain One can hear echoes from all the various > > ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. > > His use of the fragment is both elegant and > bafflingly clear, a pure musical > > threnody [it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a > > personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." > > > > M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. > > http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > > >-- >Connie Voisine >Associate Professor of English >New Mexico State University >cvoisine at nmsu.edu >575-646-2027 >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Feb 9 14:52:42 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 14:52:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Numbers; was Re: Response to Jared -- Ad Nauseum In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D52F08A.6050904@nut-n-but.net> On 2/9/2011 12:54 PM, James Cervantes wrote: > Why not see what the tally was at The Salt River Review, I asked > myself. In 13 years, we published: > > poetry by 125 males and 92 females > fiction by 54 males and 53 females > non-fiction & other prose by 10 males and 16 females > > for a grand total of writing by 189 males and 161 females > > - Jim > > . Okay, Jim, now count the words by each gender. --Bob From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Wed Feb 9 15:01:25 2011 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 12:01:25 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response to Jared -- Ad Nauseum In-Reply-To: References: <492972.78799.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <405278.30658.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Words used to describe the qualities of men and women job candidates differ. While subtle, those differences can make or break a woman?s chances of being hired or promoted. The researchers, Michelle Hebl and Randi Martin, along with graduate student Juan Madera, reviewed 624 letters of recommendation for academic positions at colleges and universities nationwide, and found that the letters praised women by using adjectives such as ?helpful,? ?kind,? ?sympathetic,? ?nurturing? and ?tactful,? along with behaviors such as helping others, taking direction well and maintaining relationships. When those recommendations were reviewed by volunteers who were unaware of the gender of the candidate, said Martin, ?the more communal the characteristics mentioned, the lower the evaluation of the candidate.? Lisa Torres, a former professor of sociology at George Washington University and now a social science analyst at the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission office in San Francisco, notes, ?We expect women to have certain skills, such as communication skills, empathy and communal traits. Yet these skills are not always valued. In some cases they are penalized. But, if women are described as assertive, self-confident and accomplished, people will question, ?Where is the team building?? It?s sort of a Catch-22.? from UpLadders.com, all about massaging references (which, unlike in academia are illegal at certain levels, and always public in any case). -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Wed Feb 9 15:26:16 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 15:26:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Response to Jared -- Ad Nauseum In-Reply-To: References: <492972.78799.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <405278.30658.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I don't doubt that there's something here, but there are a lot of variables and not enough information. Here are several concerns. 1. Were the volunteers folks who would be in a position to hire faculty? 2. What academic positions were being applied for? It's difficult to imagine the role of team building in teaching, say, medieval lyric. Bigger issue. We know that women are being hired more than men in the humanities, close to par in the social sciences, and not much in the sciences. Let's stick with the humanities for a second. If these descriptors are common in recommendation letters but women still get hired in such large numbers either of two things must be at work: the descriptors don't work against the candidate or other factors are in play. In fact who signs the recommendation letter is often more important than what it says--if the recommendor has a friend at the institution offering the job or is a bigwig in the field, add a lot of points. And recommendation letters don't come in isolation. A compassionate team builder with a list of publications and well-regarded teaching at a major university may not be penalized very much for being compassionate. Here's a different study that could be done: what was the real world success rate of applicants submitting these recommendations? Does the success rate differ by gender? Badly designed studies are unfortunately more the rule than the exception in the social sciences, whatever the subject being investigated. I did my SW masters thesis on an enormous epidemiological study of mental illness done in the late 40s that involved questionnaires administered face to face by professionals--1500 interviews balanced for socioeconomic factors. It might have been more useful if there had been even one question about history of mental illness in the families of the subjects. The sciences often don't do much better. I remember a study of epileptics that determined that they seemed odder than other people even when they weren't having seizures. The study didn't record whether the subjects were medicated or not, despite the often problematic side effects of antispasmodics. I'm not resistant to the idea that women are discriminated against in all sorts of ways. Duh. But I really hate shoddy science. Best, Mark At 03:01 PM 2/9/2011, you wrote: >Words used to describe the qualities of men and >women job candidates differ. While subtle, those >differences can make or break a woman?s chances of being hired or promoted. > >The researchers, Michelle Hebl and Randi Martin, >along with graduate student Juan Madera, >reviewed 624 letters of recommendation for >academic positions at colleges and universities >nationwide, and found that the letters praised >women by using adjectives such as ?helpful,? >?kind,? ?sympathetic,? ?nurturing? and >?tactful,? along with behaviors such as helping >others, taking direction well and maintaining >relationships. When those recommendations were >reviewed by volunteers who were unaware of the >gender of the candidate, said Martin, ?the more >communal the characteristics mentioned, the >lower the evaluation of the candidate.? > >Lisa Torres, a former professor of sociology at >George Washington University and now a social >science analyst at the Equal Employment >Opportunity Commission office in San Francisco, >notes, ?We expect women to have certain skills, >such as communication skills, empathy and >communal traits. Yet these skills are not always >valued. In some cases they are penalized. But, >if women are described as assertive, >self-confident and accomplished, people will >question, ?Where is the team building?? It?s sort of a Catch-22.? > > >from UpLadders.com, all about massaging >references (which, unlike in academia are >illegal at certain levels, and always public in any case). > >-- >[] > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Wed Feb 9 16:04:14 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 14:04:14 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Numbers; was Re: Response to Jared -- Ad Nauseum In-Reply-To: <4D52F08A.6050904@nut-n-but.net> References: <4D52F08A.6050904@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 12:52 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > On 2/9/2011 12:54 PM, James Cervantes wrote: > >> Why not see what the tally was at The Salt River Review, I asked myself. >> In 13 years, we published: >> >> poetry by 125 males and 92 females >> fiction by 54 males and 53 females >> non-fiction & other prose by 10 males and 16 females >> >> for a grand total of writing by 189 males and 161 females >> >> - Jim >> >> >> . > Okay, Jim, now count the words by each gender. > > --Bob > Sure. But counting, according to gender, the # of works published might be revealing. Or not. But the Author Index would make it easy for someone to do. Oh. there are no "visual poets." - Jim -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Wed Feb 9 16:53:10 2011 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 13:53:10 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] New digs for the Bukowski files In-Reply-To: <8CD950C21D5733E-FC4-26C51@webmail-m012.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD950C21D5733E-FC4-26C51@webmail-m012.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: the exhibit at the Huntington was pretty nice, although I could have done without the fake glass of wine next to the typewriter. Nota bene, there's a lucrative grant for scholars visiting the archives and qualifying for a carrel... On Mon, Feb 7, 2011 at 10:29 AM, wrote: > http://www.npr.org/2011/02/06/133538958/A-New-Home-For-The-Poet-Of-Skid-Row > February 6, 2011 > > The writings and art of Charles Bukowski, who has been called the "Poet of > Skid Row," have found a permanent home. The Huntington Library in Southern > California is taking in Bukowski's manuscripts, letters and paintings. > There's also a move to make his former home, complete with unemptied > ashtrays, a museum. From member station KPCC, Steven Cuevas reports. > > (audio) > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Wed Feb 9 16:55:06 2011 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2011 13:55:06 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] LA: Literary Orange 2011 Message-ID: Stephanie has invited you to the event: Literary Orange 2011. Date: April 09, 2011 08:00AM Venue: UCI, Irvine, CA Location: West Peltason Drive, Irvine, CA, The United States Description: 18 Panels. 73 authors and moderators. $60.00 general admission. $25.00 student/military ID. Lunch included. More details online. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Feb 9 17:07:04 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 17:07:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Numbers; was Re: Response to Jared -- Ad Nauseum In-Reply-To: References: <4D52F08A.6050904@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4D531008.7060002@nut-n-but.net> On 2/9/2011 4:04 PM, James Cervantes wrote: > > > On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 12:52 PM, Bob Grumman > wrote: > > On 2/9/2011 12:54 PM, James Cervantes wrote: > > Why not see what the tally was at The Salt River Review, I > asked myself. In 13 years, we published: > > poetry by 125 males and 92 females > fiction by 54 males and 53 females > non-fiction & other prose by 10 males and 16 females > > for a grand total of writing by 189 males and 161 females > > - Jim > > > . > Okay, Jim, now count the words by each gender. > > --Bob > > > Sure. But counting, according to gender, the # of works published > might be revealing. Or not. But the Author Index would make it easy > for someone to do. > Oh. there are no "visual poets." > > > - Jim Aha! Since most visual poets are male, this is discrimination against males. Who do I complain to? Actually, if only for anthropologists, a count for each of the past fifty years of works by school of poetry, if we had a decent list of schools of poetry, would be fascinating. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 9 18:23:47 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2011 18:23:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Simic: Where's poetry going? Message-ID: <8CD96C7891A5365-1040-C298@webmail-m129.sysops.aol.com> http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2011/feb/07/where-poetry-going/# This is a question poets get asked often. The quick answer is nowhere. This can?t be right, you are thinking. You?ve read plenty of poems about poets walking in the woods, rolling in the hay and even taking a sightseeing trip through hell. True enough. Nevertheless, poets, even when they are fighting in a war, rarely take off their slippers. Doesn?t Homer?s blindness prove my thesis? I bet every one of those eyewitness accounts of Greeks and Trojan slaughtering each other, and the wonderful adventures Odysseus had cruising the Mediterranean, were dreamed up by Homer while waiting for his wife to serve lunch. Sure, many poets would deny this... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Feb 10 08:56:59 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 14:56:59 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] New York: Mr. Gehry's skyscraper Message-ID: http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2011/02/10/arts/design/architecture-review-.html Frank Gehry's new building at 8 Spruce Street, the architect's first skyscraper, is almost finished. Seventy-six stories high and located just south of City Hall in Lower Manhattan, it is the tallest luxury residential tower in the city?s history. "Only now, as the building nears completion, is it possible to appreciate what Mr. Gehry has accomplished: the finest skyscraper to rise in New York since Eero Saarinen?s CBS building went up 46 years ago," Nicolai Ouroussoff writes. -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Feb 10 09:04:40 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 15:04:40 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] OT -- "Un-stalling" the VIDA conversation -- "Bitches be trippin'" In-Reply-To: <321697.75682.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <321697.75682.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: ?In skillful hands, phony data, bogus statistics, and bad mathematics can make the most fanciful idea, the most outrageous falsehood seem true. They can be used to bludgeon enemies, to destroy critics, and to squelch debate.? This is so true. We have to be careful. On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 2:42 PM, amy king wrote: > @ HTML Giant -- http://htmlgiant.com/random/bitches-be-trippin/ > > Thanks, Roxane Gay! > > > > > ********* > Amy's Alias > + http://amyking.org/ > ******** > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > It's here! Your new message! > Get new email alerts with the free Yahoo! Toolbar. > http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/ > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Feb 10 09:57:28 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 09:57:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Bishop celebration at BU tonight Message-ID: <8CD9749F8255284-1AB0-11136@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> http://www.bu.edu/today/node/12277 Tonight, Bishop, who died in 1979, will be the subject of a centennial celebration. The Poetry Reading Series event, Elizabeth Bishop at 100, will bring together 17 poets, critics, and editors, who will read aloud some of Bishop?s best loved poems, including ?In the Waiting Room,? ?Sandpiper,? ?Shampoo,? and ?First Death in Nova Scotia.? Among the evening?s readers are Costello; Christopher Ricks, BU?s William M. and Sara B. Warren Professor of the Humanities; David Ferry, a CAS visiting lecturer in creative writing; and event organizer Meg Tyler, a College of General Studies associate professor of humanities. ?Every recitation is an interpretation of a poem, so the audience will hear 17 different interpretations,? says Tyler. ?These will be performances of some kind. It will be fascinating to hear Bishop voiced by all these different people.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Feb 10 10:16:27 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 10:16:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] New York: Mr. Gehry's skyscraper In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CD974C9F773312-BFC-C4A9@webmail-m026.sysops.aol.com> >From 'substitution of terms': Architecture starts when you carefully put two bricks together. There it begins. ?Ludwig Mies van der Rohe (New York Herald Tribune, 28 Jun 1959) Poetry starts when you carefully put two words together. There it begins. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Thu, Feb 10, 2011 8:56 am Subject: [New-Poetry] New York: Mr. Gehry's skyscraper http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2011/02/10/arts/design/architecture-review-.html Frank Gehry's new building at 8 Spruce Street, the architect's first skyscraper, is almost finished. Seventy-six stories high and located just south of City Hall in Lower Manhattan, it is the tallest luxury residential tower in the city?s history. "Only now, as the building nears completion, is it possible to appreciate what Mr. Gehry has accomplished: the finest skyscraper to rise in New York since Eero Saarinen?s CBS building went up 46 years ago," Nicolai Ouroussoff writes. -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Feb 10 10:36:52 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 10:36:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] litmag watch: Mad Hatters' Review Message-ID: <8CD974F793E4D41-19A0-161EA@Webmail-m109.sysops.aol.com> Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 22:55:40 -0500 From: Carol Novack Subject: Issue 12 of Mad Hatters' Review is out! A glorious issue aflame with intriguing poems, fictions, whatnots, a recording of selections from "minimal audio plays," a la Beckett, by Richard Kostelanetz, wit & whimsies, reviews, non-fictions, columns, including an article about Charles Olson, and two features: "Moving Words" ("electronic literature"), and "Back from the USSR," an issue in itself presenting an array of the finest contemporary Russian and Ukrainian poets and fiction writers. Not to mention the mind-bending art and music. http://www.madhattersreview.com/issue12/index.shtml / -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From by.tjmst at gmail.com Thu Feb 10 10:42:57 2011 From: by.tjmst at gmail.com (BY TJMST) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 07:42:57 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] New-Poetry Digest, Vol 7, Issue 11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hi I m bouyed about the energy of ThePoetryFoundation for poetry disemmination etc.Can you also involve poetry author and eagle -woman in poetry like CAROL DESJARLAIS.I m curious about her prolificity e.g 296 poemsin 2005,1631 in 2007andnever a day or a year with less volumes of verse being dished out. More info onher -GBEMI TIJANI MST-10FEB11 On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 12:59 PM, wrote: > Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > You can reach the person managing the list at > new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Sexing it Slow (Millicent Borges Accardi) > 2. Harriet Monroe Poetry Institute Publishes Blueprints > (jforjames at aol.com) > 3. How George Wallace Saved the World (Tichaona Chinyelu) > 4. Re: The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On (jforjames at aol.com) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2011 13:20:58 -0500 (EST) > From: Millicent Borges Accardi > To: POETRYETC at JISCMAIL.AC.UK, new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: [New-Poetry] Sexing it Slow > Message-ID: <8CD95D41176E579-5DC-695 at webmail-m060.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > Greetings, > > I survived AWP and am back in California just in time to share two > Valentine's-esque poems and a story about my Grandmother and Tom Jones. If > you can, please leave a comment. > > Poetry Friday: Sexing it Slow > http://womensvoicesforchange.org/poetry-friday-sexing-it-slow.htm > > > Thanks! > > Millicent > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20110208/bbcee143/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 13:26:31 -0500 > From: jforjames at aol.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: [New-Poetry] Harriet Monroe Poetry Institute Publishes > Blueprints > Message-ID: <8CD95D4D728965B-7B0-B19 at webmail-m093.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Poetry Foundation > To: Jim Finnegan > Sent: Tue, Feb 8, 2011 12:55 pm > Subject: For Immediate Release: Harriet Monroe Poetry Institute Publishes > Blueprints > > > > > > > > FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE February 8, 2011 > Harriet Monroe Poetry Institute Publishes Blueprints > Celebrated Poets Convene to Bring Poetry into Communities > CHICAGO?The Poetry Foundation, publisher of Poetry magazine, is pleased to > announce the publication of the e-book Blueprints: Bringing Poetry into > Communities, co-published with the University of Utah Press. A project of > the Poetry Foundation?s Harriet Monroe Poetry Institute and edited by > inaugural director Katharine Coles, the book brings together noted poets and > community leaders to discuss the inventive ways they?ve introduced poetry to > diverse communities. The essays include tips, program ideas, and successful > methods for bringing poetry to people, while the book?s final section draws > from the strategies discussed in those essays to offer a flexible toolkit > for individuals and organizations interested in bringing poetry into their > own communities. Essays and contributions come from poets associated with > the following programs and organizations: > > Elizabeth Alexander, Cave Canem > Sherwin Bitsui, Nizhoni Bridges and the Tohono O?odham Nation > Susan Boskoff, Nevada Arts Council > Lee Briccetti, Poets House > Alison Hawthorne Deming, University of Arizona?s Poetry Center > Dana Gioia, Poetry Out Loud > Robert Hass, River of Words > Bas Kwakman, Poetry International > Thomas Lux, Poetry at Tech > Christopher Merrill, University of Iowa International Writing Program > Luis Rodriguez, Tia Chucha?s Centro Cultural & Bookstore > Anna Deavere Smith, Anna Deavere Smith Works, Inc. > Patricia Smith, Poetry Slam > Tree Swenson, Academy of American Poets > Orlando White, Din? College > > The contributors to Blueprints draw from a wealth of experiential learning > to provide encouragement for budding poetry communities and arts > administrators. Robert Hass writes about his work with River of Words, an > organization that encourages environmental awareness through the arts, and > the lessons he?s learned about running a successful nonprofit. Elizabeth > Alexander, who read at President Obama?s inauguration and is a supporter of > Cave Canem, discusses her own search for community as well as the importance > of togetherness and safe spaces for creative expression. And Lee Briccetti > of Poets House in New York City reminds organizers that fostering an > environment conducive to the appreciation of poetry can achieve immeasurable > results. She offers words that any community builder might live by: ?You > can?t create love. But you can create the conditions for love.? > By providing stories from those who have succeeded in bringing poetry to > communities and highlighting proven techniques, the book offers readers > inspiration, guidance, and confidence, as well as practical tools and > strategies. It is available for free download at > www.poetryfoundation.org/blueprints. The print book, which will be > published in March, will be available for sale at bookstores, through online > retailers, or from the University of Utah Press at www.uofupress.com. > Katharine Coles is available for interviews about this project. Please call > 312.799.8016 to schedule a time to speak with her. > View this release online. > > > > FORWARD TO A FRIEND ? > > CONTACT > POETRY FOUNDATION > 444 North Michigan Avenue > Chicago, IL 60611 > 312.799.8016 > Media Contact: Stephanie Hlywak > ABOUT THE POETRY FOUNDATION > The Poetry Foundation, publisher of Poetry magazine, is an independent > literary organization committed to a vigorous presence for poetry in our > culture. It exists to discover and celebrate the best poetry and to place it > before the largest possible audience. The Poetry Foundation seeks to be a > leader in shaping a receptive climate for poetry by developing new > audiences, creating new avenues for delivery, and encouraging new kinds of > poetry through innovative literary prizes and programs. > Follow the Poetry Foundation and Poetry on Facebook or on Twitter. > About the Harriet Monroe Poetry Institute > The Harriet Monroe Poetry Institute is an independent forum created to > provide a space in which fresh thinking about poetry, in both its > intellectual and its practical needs, can flourish free of any allegiance > other than to the best ideas. With this in mind, the Institute convenes > leading poets, scholars, publishers, educators, and other thinkers from > inside and outside the poetry world to address issues of importance to the > art form of poetry and to identify and champion solutions for the benefit of > the art. > > > > > > You have received this newsletter because you submitted your e-mail address > at http://www.poetryfoundation.org. You may unsubscribe or change your > newsletter subscription preferences at any time. > > Copyright ? 2011 Poetry Foundation > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20110208/00c56a46/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 11:37:58 -0700 > From: "Tichaona Chinyelu" > To: "NewPoetry List" > Subject: [New-Poetry] How George Wallace Saved the World > Message-ID: > < > 20110208113758.06739fca92e8a33e1cdb4ae2881c2177.824a1aa27d.wbe at email01.secureserver.net > > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20110208/53beca0d/attachment-0001.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Tue, 08 Feb 2011 15:58:36 -0500 > From: jforjames at aol.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On > Message-ID: <8CD95EA16F106F4-7B0-2E76 at webmail-m093.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > Bob, dragging Steele and Rowlings into this discussion is being a bit > obtuse. The VIDA survey is pretty straightforward (and telling): It took a > sample of leading literary publications (not novel sales), tallied & created > graphical gender divisions. They looked at the publications from two general > perspectives, # by-lines or # of books reviewed. For most of the > publications cited the results were shown to be heavily skewed toward men. > The stats, as released, are not attempting drill down by genre...most of the > publicatons cited publish a lot of articles and reviews. > > The sales of Rowlings and Steele or Jonathan Franzen for that matter or not > relevant. Counting the novelists by gender that Random House/Knopf/FSG > publishes year by year might be more related to what VIDA is trying to show. > > High-circulation literary magazines have influence on award-giving, job > placement/advancement, etc...so it makes sense to focus on them. > > The message is pretty clear: Don't assume there is gender equality in > literary publishing and author attention. My guess is this survey, as simple > as it was, will have an influence on editors and their staffs, and within > 2-3 years time we'll see them adding more women to the Contents pages of > their publications. > Finnegan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Grumman > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Mon, Feb 7, 2011 7:53 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Count & Fallout: The Beat Goes On > > > On 2/7/2011 6:17 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > >> I'm curious, Amy-- has the success of Steele or Rowling entered any >> > of these discussions? > >> > >> --Bob > > > > Someone on the Guardian comment thread (which was partially censored > > and is now closed, I believe) to their article picking up on the Vida > > original mentioned J.K.Rowling, to the effect that (I'm paraphrasing > > crudely) she used androgynous initials, implicitly read as male, to > start > with, since otherwise she felt that boys wouldn't read her books. > > > > I'm slightly dubious about this as so much of the marketing of Harry > > Potter (which is independent of the quality of the books, which I > quite > liked) stressed the > > single-mother-writing-great-books-while-living-on-benefits angle. But > who > knows. > > > > I'm still not entirely sure about the nature of the graphs presented > in > the original Vida piece, as they don't quite seem to equate in > terms of > labelling, but that may just be me. > > > > Interesting that the discussion (is this actually the case?) of the > 13% > Wiki piece (given a lot of space by the NYT) and the Vida Numbers > seem to > be running independently. > > > > Oh yeah, what did strike me was in the Vida graphs, Poetry (Chicago) > > stands out like a sore thumb (or a beacon?) from the rest of the > > statistics. > > > > Odd that, but. > > > > Robin > > I haven't read anything about it except Amy's reports. Just curious about > the fact that women seem to have authored a good number of best-sellers, and > publishers and editors like the make money, so I have trouble thinking they > would treat a female author differently from a male. But maybe in poetry. > Anyway, hugely more complex than graphs make it seem to some, and too touchy > a subject for anyone like me to get into. So I really have to stop posting > about it! > > --Bob > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20110208/bc7212b0/attachment.html > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 7, Issue 11 > ***************************************** > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Feb 10 17:59:55 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Feb 2011 17:59:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPRING APPLICATIONS OPEN In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CD978D5E58C4AD-C94-3707@Webmail-m120.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: Colrain Conferences Sent: Thu, Feb 10, 2011 3:33 pm Subject: SPRING APPLICATIONS OPEN Dear Friends of the Colrain Conferences: Greetings and good wishes for the New Year! I am writing to let you know that our manuscript conferences begin again this spring at the Round House in Colrain, Massachusetts. Along with lodging at the Round House, this year we are offering off-site lodging for those who prefer a room with a private bath. Our March 25-28 and April 29-May 2 manuscript conferences are now open for application. If you have a book-length or chapbook-length manuscript you think is ready, or nearly ready, for publication, refer to this link for more information, application, cost and other details: www.colrainpoetry.com Since our first conference, in March of 2006, over 45 Colrain manuscripts have been accepted for publication. Our publication news is found here. Also, this year we are starting a new, one-day master class called DoubleTake focused on editorial analysis of participants' individual poems. It will be conducted by Colrain faculty Joan Houlihan and Martha Rhodes and held in NYC on March 12, April 2 and May 14th. Complete information can be found here: www.doubletakepoetry.com I hope you will join us in 2011! Best Wishes, Joan Joan Houlihan, Founder & Director Concord Poetry Center & Colrain Conferences 40 Stow Street Concord, MA 01742 978-897-0054 Attendees say: "...My consultation completely changed the way I view the manuscript. There is nothing like what you are providing. Kudos!" Dawn Fewkes, Horseheads, NY "...It was a goldmine for me especially, removed as I am from the academic world and from a community of serious poets." LouAnn Muhm, Park Rapids, MN, Teacher, Creative Writing "...extremely helpful to hear responses to the other manuscripts. I learned as much or more from the critiques of others' manuscripts as I did from the critique of mine." Mary Crow, Fort Collins, CO, Poet Laureate of Colorado " Attending the Colrain Manuscript Conference was undoubtedly the most profound poetry experience I've ever had. What I learned in forty-eight hours will be with me for years to come." Tracy Kroetsky, Berkley, CA "...The Colrain conference was everything I'd hoped it would be and more. I feel well on my way, now, to a publishable manuscript." Pat Lowry Collins, MA "The Colrain Manuscript Conference managed to pack into a weekend what a lot of grad school teachers never had time to do in their classes or individually: offer finishing touches to a manuscript eager to be picked up by a publisher." Steve Fellner, Brockport, NY -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Feb 11 04:44:19 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 10:44:19 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Women Earn Bachelor's Degrees Than Men, Study Shows Message-ID: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/10/post_644_n_821577.html -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Feb 11 09:10:03 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 09:10:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] New York: Mr. Gehry's skyscraper In-Reply-To: <8CD974C9F773312-BFC-C4A9@webmail-m026.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD974C9F773312-BFC-C4A9@webmail-m026.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D55433B.5030603@nut-n-but.net> On 2/10/2011 10:16 AM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: > From 'substitution of terms': > Architecture starts when you carefully put two bricks together. There > it begins. > > ?Ludwig Mies van der Rohe (New York Herald Tribune, 28 Jun 1959) > > Poetry starts when you carefully put two words together. There it begins. . Wrong, as I indicated in my comment at your blog, James. Unless you believe Saroyan's "lighght" and van den Heuvel's "tundra" are not poems. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Feb 11 09:16:16 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 09:16:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Infraverbal Poem for Fans of bp Nichol In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D5544B0.9060607@nut-n-but.net> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Correction-of-Alphabet-e1297424776468.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 12368 bytes Desc: not available URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Feb 11 09:41:05 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 15:41:05 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] New York: Mr. Gehry's skyscraper In-Reply-To: <4D55433B.5030603@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CD974C9F773312-BFC-C4A9@webmail-m026.sysops.aol.com> <4D55433B.5030603@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: God you who are so good God you who are so merciful Please God, send Bob Grumman on holiday :-) On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 3:10 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > On 2/10/2011 10:16 AM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: > > From 'substitution of terms': > > Architecture starts when you carefully put two bricks together. There it > begins. > > ?Ludwig Mies van der Rohe (New York Herald Tribune, 28 Jun 1959) > > Poetry starts when you carefully put two words together. There it begins. > > . > Wrong, as I indicated in my comment at your blog, James. Unless you > believe Saroyan's "lighght" and van den Heuvel's "tundra" are not poems. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Feb 11 09:56:33 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 09:56:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sudden Idea Re: a Bests Anthology In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D554E21.5060501@nut-n-but.net> Here's the simple idea: set up a website for /My Best Poem/. Anybody who wanted to could contribute one poem (by any definition so long as it wasn't outrageously huge) to it a year provided the poem had been composed during the year just past and its author thought it his best. Each poem would be indexed by author's name. Anybody who wanted to could also, when all the poems for a year had been posted, make one personal list of ten favorites per year, excluding his own. This would also be posted and indexed. A year later, a list could be compiled of the ten poems appearing on most lists. Interesting wars could be fought about how few or many poems by females were listed. Or by visual poets. I did something like this once for visiotextual artists, but hardcopy, and for only twenty or twenty-one artists. It was open to anyone but announced at Spidertangle only. I asked for the artist's favorite poem ever, with a commentary on it about the reason the artist liked it and whatever else the artist wanted to say about it. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Feb 11 10:07:52 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 10:07:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] New York: Mr. Gehry's skyscraper In-Reply-To: References: <8CD974C9F773312-BFC-C4A9@webmail-m026.sysops.aol.com>< 4D55433B.5030603@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4D5550C8.6070403@nut-n-but.net> On 2/11/2011 9:41 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > God you who are so good > God you who are so merciful > Please God, send Bob Grumman on holiday > > :-) . He did, Anny, but Zarathrustra sent me back to war. He /likes/ what I'm doing! --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Feb 11 10:46:06 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 16:46:06 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] New York: Mr. Gehry's skyscraper In-Reply-To: <4D5550C8.6070403@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CD974C9F773312-BFC-C4A9@webmail-m026.sysops.aol.com> <4D5550C8.6070403@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Zarathustra you who are so good Zarathurstra you ... On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 4:07 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > On 2/11/2011 9:41 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > God you who are so good > God you who are so merciful > Please God, send Bob Grumman on holiday > > :-) > > . He did, Anny, but Zarathrustra sent me back to war. He *likes* what I'm > doing! > > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Feb 11 10:54:48 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 10:54:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] New York: Mr. Gehry's skyscraper In-Reply-To: <4D55433B.5030603@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CD974C9F773312-BFC-C4A9@webmail-m026.sysops.aol.com> <4D55433B.5030603@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <8CD981B217F85E4-1928-F897@webmail-m059.sysops.aol.com> Perhaps 'lighght' is two words fused? And me and Mies didn't say you couldn't then take one away? -----Original Message----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry List Sent: Fri, Feb 11, 2011 9:10 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] New York: Mr. Gehry's skyscraper On 2/10/2011 10:16 AM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: >From 'substitution of terms': Architecture starts when you carefully put two bricks together. There it begins. ?Ludwig Mies van der Rohe (New York Herald Tribune, 28 Jun 1959) Poetry starts when you carefully put two words together. There it begins. . Wrong, as I indicated in my comment at your blog, James. Unless you believe Saroyan's "lighght" and van den Heuvel's "tundra" are not poems. --Bob _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Fri Feb 11 11:11:59 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 08:11:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Goodbye, Mubarak In-Reply-To: References: <8CD974C9F773312-BFC-C4A9@webmail-m026.sysops.aol.com> <4D55433B.5030603@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <675083.21541.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/11/AR2011021102386.html ********* VIDA: Women in Literary Arts + Interviews Amy's Alias + http://amyking.org/ ******** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msullivan at metrocast.net Fri Feb 11 12:26:52 2011 From: msullivan at metrocast.net (SULLIVAN) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 12:26:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] NIU Literature Conference... Anyone going? Message-ID: <948FD56920B34DF3BDBFAA33C4673772@MaryAnnPC> I will be presenting a paper on Digital Poetry at Northern Illinois University's Midwestern Conference on Literature, Language and Media, April 1-2. Is anyone else going to be there? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Feb 11 14:06:34 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 14:06:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] New York: Mr. Gehry's skyscraper In-Reply-To: <8CD981B217F85E4-1928-F897@webmail-m059.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD974C9F773312-BFC-C4A9@webmail-m026.sysops.aol.com>< 4D55433B.5030603@nut-n-but.net> <8CD981B217F85E4-1928-F897@webmail-m059.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D5588BA.4090908@nut-n-but.net> On 2/11/2011 10:54 AM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: > Perhaps 'lighght' is two words fused? And me and Mies didn't say you > couldn't then take one away? Well, I'd say lighght at most is one word plus part of one word, itself. And "tundra" is just one word. But I like the idea that poems are started with two words and then chiseled down to one or less! --Bob, just working for awareness of weirdness in poetry (like poems of one or less words, and there /are/ some of the latter!) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Feb 11 18:55:55 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 18:55:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy 10th Anniversary NewPoetry List Message-ID: <8CD985E5B32F21A-1458-2D2E@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> Today is the 10th Anniversary of the NewPoetry List. This list was a continuation of the CAP-L list... >From information I rec'd from an early subscriber (Manda Surkont) to CAP-L (Contemporary American Poetry List), that list was launched in late 1994. (Below is an email I found out on the web that indicates that CAP-L was launched on Dec. 5, 1994.) I joined CAP-L in mid-1996. It was a very active list in the mid and late 1990s. The late 90s could be termed the heyday of the lists. Later it seemed that the Blogosphere and then Facebook siphoned off a lot of the traffic; and particularly lessened the conversation. But perhaps it was just that lists lost some of their steam when the novelty wore off. It was heady thing at first to be part of that farflung (hearing from people all over the country and internationally, both known and unknown poets) and the free-wheeling (all manner of topics in multiple threads going on) conversation that the early lists made possible. The early CAP-L list managers were Rich Abowitz and Dawn McCarra Bass; though, as I recall, most of the list management communication came from Dawn. The listserv was originally hosted at the University of Minnesota*. It seemed as though the listserv moved a couple times, possibly related to Dawn's job changes. The CAP-L listserv was last hosted at U. of Virginia. Around 1999 CAP-L had about 160 members. Listserv outages became frequent occurrences in 1999 and thus postings/conversation became more sporadic. And the list went dark sometime in 2000. Before it failed utterly, I decided to log in and to copy/download the CAP-L membership list. After a few months of missing CAP-L, and after a few unanswered queries to Dawn about whether the list could be resurrected, in early 2001, with the help of several active CAP-L members (David Graham, Tad Richards, Jim Cervantes, Gray Jacobik, etc.) I started ?New-Poetry List?. Based on a lead from David I was able to use the systems at Virginia Tech (CATH) and in particular I got help from Len Hatfield (who still helps me with listserv tech glitches, though he?s moved on to Oregon). Though we have had some turnover in the group, and some are more active than others, we recruited a group Contributing Correspondents who help keep things percolating by posting material occasionally that may or may not kick off a thread. The current crew is: David , Tad, Jim, plus Halvard Johnson, Jeff Newberry, Anny Ballardini and Amy King (who runs the much larger WomPo list). Of course many of you are good about kicking in material from time to time, so thank you for being part of the NewPoetry List. (Lurkers, we love you too.) We currently have about 200 subscribers. Tell a friend about us. I love hearing from the old standbys but new blood (subscribers) is a good thing too. Jim Finnegan http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 16:09:36 -0600 (CST) From: Richard S Abowitz Subject: Contemporary American Poetry Please note in _Humanist_: A new list, dedicated to discussing contemporary American poetry, has just started. To subscribe to the list (CAP-L) send your request to listserv at vm1.spcs.umn.edu The request should say SUBSCRIBE CAP-L and, if new to the system, . ------- *NOTE: According to a student directory found out on the web, Richard Abowitz and Dawn McCarra Bass were grad students at University of Minnesota in 1996. -- Jim Finnegan 860-508-2810 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amanda at surkont.com Fri Feb 11 20:10:32 2011 From: amanda at surkont.com (Amanda Surkont) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 17:10:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy 10th Anniversary NewPoetry List In-Reply-To: <8CD985E5B32F21A-1458-2D2E@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <646057.18955.qm@web1210.biz.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> And I am still here.... best to all, manda --- On Fri, 2/11/11, jforjames at aol.com wrote: From: jforjames at aol.com Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy 10th Anniversary NewPoetry List To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Friday, February 11, 2011, 6:55 PM Today is the 10th Anniversary of the NewPoetry List. This list was a continuation of the CAP-L list... ? From information I rec'd from an early subscriber (Manda Surkont) to CAP-L (Contemporary American Poetry List), that list was launched in late 1994. (Below is an email I found out on the web that indicates that CAP-L was launched on Dec. 5, 1994.) ? I joined CAP-L in mid-1996. It was a very active list in the mid and late 1990s. The late 90s could be termed the heyday of the lists. Later it seemed that the Blogosphere and then Facebook?siphoned off a lot of the traffic; and particularly lessened the conversation. But perhaps it was just that lists lost some of their steam when the novelty wore off. It was heady thing at first to be part of that farflung (hearing from people all over the country and internationally, both known and unknown poets) and the free-wheeling (all manner of topics in multiple threads going on) conversation?that the early?lists made possible. ? The early CAP-L list managers were Rich Abowitz and Dawn McCarra Bass; though, as I recall, most of the list management communication came from Dawn. The listserv was originally hosted at the University of Minnesota*. It seemed as though the listserv moved a couple times, possibly related to Dawn's job changes. The CAP-L listserv was last hosted at U. of Virginia. ? Around 1999 CAP-L had about 160 members. Listserv outages became frequent occurrences in 1999 and thus postings/conversation became more sporadic.? And the list went dark sometime in 2000. Before it failed utterly, I decided to log in and to copy/download the CAP-L membership list. ? After a few months of missing CAP-L, and after a few unanswered queries to Dawn about whether the list could be resurrected, in early 2001, with the help of several active CAP-L members (David Graham, Tad Richards, Jim Cervantes, Gray Jacobik, etc.) I started ?New-Poetry List?. Based on a lead from David I was able to use the systems at Virginia Tech (CATH) and in particular I got help from Len Hatfield (who still helps me with listserv tech glitches, though he?s moved on to Oregon). ? Though we have had?some turnover in the group, and some are more active than others, we recruited a group Contributing Correspondents who help keep things percolating by posting material occasionally that may or may not kick off a thread. The current crew is: David , Tad,? Jim, plus Halvard Johnson, Jeff Newberry, Anny Ballardini and Amy King (who runs the much larger WomPo list). ? Of course many of you are good about kicking in material from time to time, so thank you for being part of the NewPoetry List. (Lurkers, we love you too.) ? We currently have about 200 subscribers. Tell a friend about us. I love hearing from the old standbys but new blood (subscribers) is a good thing too. Jim Finnegan http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 16:09:36 -0600 (CST) From: Richard S Abowitz Subject: Contemporary American Poetry ? Please note in _Humanist_: ? A new list, dedicated to discussing contemporary American poetry, has just started. To subscribe to the list (CAP-L) send your request to listserv at vm1.spcs.umn.edu The request should say SUBSCRIBE CAP-L and, if new to the system, . ------- *NOTE: According to a student directory found out on the web, Richard Abowitz and Dawn McCarra Bass were grad students at University of Minnesota in 1996. -- Jim Finnegan 860-508-2810 -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From millb at aol.com Fri Feb 11 20:23:31 2011 From: millb at aol.com (Millicent Borges Accardi) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 20:23:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy 10th Anniversary NewPoetry List In-Reply-To: <646057.18955.qm@web1210.biz.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <646057.18955.qm@web1210.biz.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CD986A980D8BC2-1E24-32B50@Webmail-d110.sysops.aol.com> I'm still here too! Millicent -----Original Message----- From: Amanda Surkont To: NewPoetry List Sent: Fri, Feb 11, 2011 5:13 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Happy 10th Anniversary NewPoetry List And I am still here.... best to all, manda --- On Fri, 2/11/11, jforjames at aol.com wrote: From: jforjames at aol.com Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy 10th Anniversary NewPoetry List To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Friday, February 11, 2011, 6:55 PM Today is the 10th Anniversary of the NewPoetry List. This list was a continuation of the CAP-L list... >From information I rec'd from an early subscriber (Manda Surkont) to CAP-L (Contemporary American Poetry List), that list was launched in late 1994. (Below is an email I found out on the web that indicates that CAP-L was launched on Dec. 5, 1994.) I joined CAP-L in mid-1996. It was a very active list in the mid and late 1990s. The late 90s could be termed the heyday of the lists. Later it seemed that the Blogosphere and then Facebook siphoned off a lot of the traffic; and particularly lessened the conversation. But perhaps it was just that lists lost some of their steam when the novelty wore off. It was heady thing at first to be part of that farflung (hearing from people all over the country and internationally, both known and unknown poets) and the free-wheeling (all manner of topics in multiple threads going on) conversation that the early lists made possible. The early CAP-L list managers were Rich Abowitz and Dawn McCarra Bass; though, as I recall, most of the list management communication came from Dawn. The listserv was originally hosted at the University of Minnesota*. It seemed as though the listserv moved a couple times, possibly related to Dawn's job changes. The CAP-L listserv was last hosted at U. of Virginia. Around 1999 CAP-L had about 160 members. Listserv outages became frequent occurrences in 1999 and thus postings/conversation became more sporadic. And the list went dark sometime in 2000. Before it failed utterly, I decided to log in and to copy/download the CAP-L membership list. After a few months of missing CAP-L, and after a few unanswered queries to Dawn about whether the list could be resurrected, in early 2001, with the help of several active CAP-L members (David Graham, Tad Richards, Jim Cervantes, Gray Jacobik, etc.) I started ?New-Poetry List?. Based on a lead from David I was able to use the systems at Virginia Tech (CATH) and in particular I got help from Len Hatfield (who still helps me with listserv tech glitches, though he?s moved on to Oregon). Though we have had some turnover in the group, and some are more active than others, we recruited a group Contributing Correspondents who help keep things percolating by posting material occasionally that may or may not kick off a thread. The current crew is: David , Tad, Jim, plus Halvard Johnson, Jeff Newberry, Anny Ballardini and Amy King (who runs the much larger WomPo list). Of course many of you are good about kicking in material from time to time, so thank you for being part of the NewPoetry List. (Lurkers, we love you too.) We currently have about 200 subscribers. Tell a friend about us. I love hearing from the old standbys but new blood (subscribers) is a good thing too. Jim Finnegan http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 16:09:36 -0600 (CST) From: Richard S Abowitz Subject: Contemporary American Poetry Please note in _Humanist_: A new list, dedicated to discussing contemporary American poetry, has just started. To subscribe to the list (CAP-L) send your request to listserv at vm1.spcs.umn.edu The request should say SUBSCRIBE CAP-L and, if new to the system, . ------- *NOTE: According to a student directory found out on the web, Richard Abowitz and Dawn McCarra Bass were grad students at University of Minnesota in 1996. -- Jim Finnegan 860-508-2810 -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Fri Feb 11 23:52:52 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 11 Feb 2011 22:52:52 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy 10th Anniversary NewPoetry List In-Reply-To: <8CD985E5B32F21A-1458-2D2E@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD985E5B32F21A-1458-2D2E@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Bravo to New-Po! And, especially, bravo to you, Finnegan, for keeping us afloat and on an even keel. "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home *Mainly Black , **Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ;* *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; * ***Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; * ***G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 5:55 PM, wrote: > Today is the 10th Anniversary of the NewPoetry List. This list was a > continuation of the CAP-L list... > > From information I rec'd from an early subscriber (Manda Surkont) to CAP-L > (Contemporary American Poetry List), that list was launched in late 1994. > (Below is an email I found out on the web that indicates that CAP-L was > launched on Dec. 5, 1994.) > > I joined CAP-L in mid-1996. It was a very active list in the mid and late > 1990s. The late 90s could be termed the heyday of the lists. Later it seemed > that the Blogosphere and then Facebook siphoned off a lot of the traffic; > and particularly lessened the conversation. But perhaps it was just that > lists lost some of their steam when the novelty wore off. It was heady thing > at first to be part of that farflung (hearing from people all over the > country and internationally, both known and unknown poets) and the > free-wheeling (all manner of topics in multiple threads going on) > conversation that the early lists made possible. > > The early CAP-L list managers were Rich Abowitz and Dawn McCarra Bass; > though, as I recall, most of the list management communication came from > Dawn. The listserv was originally hosted at the University of Minnesota*. It > seemed as though the listserv moved a couple times, possibly related to > Dawn's job changes. The CAP-L listserv was last hosted at U. of Virginia. > > Around 1999 CAP-L had about 160 members. Listserv outages became frequent > occurrences in 1999 and thus postings/conversation became more sporadic. > And the list went dark sometime in 2000. Before it failed utterly, I decided > to log in and to copy/download the CAP-L membership list. > > After a few months of missing CAP-L, and after a few unanswered queries to > Dawn about whether the list could be resurrected, in early 2001, with the > help of several active CAP-L members (David Graham, Tad Richards, Jim > Cervantes, Gray Jacobik, etc.) I started ?New-Poetry List?. Based on a lead > from David I was able to use the systems at Virginia Tech (CATH) and in > particular I got help from Len Hatfield (who still helps me with listserv > tech glitches, though he?s moved on to Oregon). > > Though we have had some turnover in the group, and some are more active > than others, we recruited a group Contributing Correspondents who help keep > things percolating by posting material occasionally that may or may not kick > off a thread. The current crew is: David , Tad, Jim, plus Halvard Johnson, > Jeff Newberry, Anny Ballardini and Amy King (who runs the much larger WomPo > list). > > Of course many of you are good about kicking in material from time to time, > so thank you for being part of the NewPoetry List. (Lurkers, we love you > too.) > > We currently have about 200 subscribers. Tell a friend about us. I love > hearing from the old standbys but new blood (subscribers) is a good thing > too. > > Jim Finnegan > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 16:09:36 -0600 (CST) > From: Richard S Abowitz > Subject: Contemporary American Poetry > > Please note in _Humanist_: > > A new list, dedicated to discussing contemporary American poetry, > has just started. To subscribe to the list (CAP-L) send your request to > listserv at vm1.spcs.umn.edu > The request should say SUBSCRIBE CAP-L and, if new to > the system, . > ------- > *NOTE: According to a student directory found out on the web, Richard > Abowitz and Dawn McCarra Bass were grad students at University of Minnesota > in 1996. > -- > > > Jim Finnegan > 860-508-2810 > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Feb 12 04:18:44 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 10:18:44 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Thoughts of a young girl Message-ID: THOUGHTS OF A YOUNG GIRL ?It is such a beautiful day I had to write you a letter >From the tower, and to show I?m not mad: I only slipped on the cake of soap of the air And drwoned in the bathtub of the world. You were too good to cry much over me. And now I let you go. Signed, The Dward.? I passed by late in the afternoon And the smile still played about her lips As it has for centuries. She always knows How to be utterly delightful. Oh my faughter, My sweetheart, daughter of my late employer, princess, May you not be long on the way! ? John Ashbery >From *The Tennis Court Oath*, Wesleyan University Press, Middletown, Connecticut, 1962 -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Feb 12 04:23:15 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 10:23:15 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy 10th Anniversary NewPoetry List In-Reply-To: References: <8CD985E5B32F21A-1458-2D2E@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Yes, my felt congratulations to James Finnegan, an exemplary List-Owner. And Happy Birthday to NewPoetry, that it should be always New, as someone much more important than me said before, see Ezra Pound. Cheers, Anny On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 5:52 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Bravo to New-Po! And, especially, bravo to you, Finnegan, for > keeping us afloat and on an even keel. > > > "What does a poet need an unlisted > number for?" > --George Costanza > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > *Mainly Black > , **Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ;* > *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; * > ***Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; * > ***G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 5:55 PM, wrote: > >> Today is the 10th Anniversary of the NewPoetry List. This list was a >> continuation of the CAP-L list... >> >> From information I rec'd from an early subscriber (Manda Surkont) to CAP-L >> (Contemporary American Poetry List), that list was launched in late 1994. >> (Below is an email I found out on the web that indicates that CAP-L was >> launched on Dec. 5, 1994.) >> >> I joined CAP-L in mid-1996. It was a very active list in the mid and late >> 1990s. The late 90s could be termed the heyday of the lists. Later it seemed >> that the Blogosphere and then Facebook siphoned off a lot of the traffic; >> and particularly lessened the conversation. But perhaps it was just that >> lists lost some of their steam when the novelty wore off. It was heady thing >> at first to be part of that farflung (hearing from people all over the >> country and internationally, both known and unknown poets) and the >> free-wheeling (all manner of topics in multiple threads going on) >> conversation that the early lists made possible. >> >> The early CAP-L list managers were Rich Abowitz and Dawn McCarra Bass; >> though, as I recall, most of the list management communication came from >> Dawn. The listserv was originally hosted at the University of Minnesota*. It >> seemed as though the listserv moved a couple times, possibly related to >> Dawn's job changes. The CAP-L listserv was last hosted at U. of Virginia. >> >> Around 1999 CAP-L had about 160 members. Listserv outages became frequent >> occurrences in 1999 and thus postings/conversation became more sporadic. >> And the list went dark sometime in 2000. Before it failed utterly, I decided >> to log in and to copy/download the CAP-L membership list. >> >> After a few months of missing CAP-L, and after a few unanswered queries to >> Dawn about whether the list could be resurrected, in early 2001, with the >> help of several active CAP-L members (David Graham, Tad Richards, Jim >> Cervantes, Gray Jacobik, etc.) I started ?New-Poetry List?. Based on a lead >> from David I was able to use the systems at Virginia Tech (CATH) and in >> particular I got help from Len Hatfield (who still helps me with listserv >> tech glitches, though he?s moved on to Oregon). >> >> Though we have had some turnover in the group, and some are more active >> than others, we recruited a group Contributing Correspondents who help keep >> things percolating by posting material occasionally that may or may not kick >> off a thread. The current crew is: David , Tad, Jim, plus Halvard Johnson, >> Jeff Newberry, Anny Ballardini and Amy King (who runs the much larger WomPo >> list). >> >> Of course many of you are good about kicking in material from time to >> time, so thank you for being part of the NewPoetry List. (Lurkers, we love >> you too.) >> >> We currently have about 200 subscribers. Tell a friend about us. I love >> hearing from the old standbys but new blood (subscribers) is a good thing >> too. >> >> Jim Finnegan >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 16:09:36 -0600 (CST) >> From: Richard S Abowitz >> Subject: Contemporary American Poetry >> >> Please note in _Humanist_: >> >> A new list, dedicated to discussing contemporary American poetry, >> has just started. To subscribe to the list (CAP-L) send your request to >> listserv at vm1.spcs.umn.edu >> The request should say SUBSCRIBE CAP-L and, if new to >> the system, . >> ------- >> *NOTE: According to a student directory found out on the web, Richard >> Abowitz and Dawn McCarra Bass were grad students at University of Minnesota >> in 1996. >> -- >> >> >> Jim Finnegan >> 860-508-2810 >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Feb 12 09:08:21 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 09:08:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy 10th Anniversary NewPoetry List In-Reply-To: References: <8CD985E5B32F21A-1458-2D2E@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CD98D570948832-FB8-4C3E@Webmail-d123.sysops.aol.com> One more thing. We have a history once more. The Archives have been fully restored. First we lost the first 5 years, then we lost them all in late 2010. But Len Hatfield dug them out of digital dirt for us... http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/ Jim Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Sat Feb 12 09:20:20 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 07:20:20 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy 10th Anniversary NewPoetry List In-Reply-To: <8CD985E5B32F21A-1458-2D2E@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD985E5B32F21A-1458-2D2E@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Good show. I promise to be a better poster to help bolster your efforts. - Jim On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 4:55 PM, wrote: > Today is the 10th Anniversary of the NewPoetry List. This list was a > continuation of the CAP-L list... > > From information I rec'd from an early subscriber (Manda Surkont) to CAP-L > (Contemporary American Poetry List), that list was launched in late 1994. > (Below is an email I found out on the web that indicates that CAP-L was > launched on Dec. 5, 1994.) > > I joined CAP-L in mid-1996. It was a very active list in the mid and late > 1990s. The late 90s could be termed the heyday of the lists. Later it seemed > that the Blogosphere and then Facebook siphoned off a lot of the traffic; > and particularly lessened the conversation. But perhaps it was just that > lists lost some of their steam when the novelty wore off. It was heady thing > at first to be part of that farflung (hearing from people all over the > country and internationally, both known and unknown poets) and the > free-wheeling (all manner of topics in multiple threads going on) > conversation that the early lists made possible. > > The early CAP-L list managers were Rich Abowitz and Dawn McCarra Bass; > though, as I recall, most of the list management communication came from > Dawn. The listserv was originally hosted at the University of Minnesota*. It > seemed as though the listserv moved a couple times, possibly related to > Dawn's job changes. The CAP-L listserv was last hosted at U. of Virginia. > > Around 1999 CAP-L had about 160 members. Listserv outages became frequent > occurrences in 1999 and thus postings/conversation became more sporadic. > And the list went dark sometime in 2000. Before it failed utterly, I decided > to log in and to copy/download the CAP-L membership list. > > After a few months of missing CAP-L, and after a few unanswered queries to > Dawn about whether the list could be resurrected, in early 2001, with the > help of several active CAP-L members (David Graham, Tad Richards, Jim > Cervantes, Gray Jacobik, etc.) I started ?New-Poetry List?. Based on a lead > from David I was able to use the systems at Virginia Tech (CATH) and in > particular I got help from Len Hatfield (who still helps me with listserv > tech glitches, though he?s moved on to Oregon). > > Though we have had some turnover in the group, and some are more active > than others, we recruited a group Contributing Correspondents who help keep > things percolating by posting material occasionally that may or may not kick > off a thread. The current crew is: David , Tad, Jim, plus Halvard Johnson, > Jeff Newberry, Anny Ballardini and Amy King (who runs the much larger WomPo > list). > > Of course many of you are good about kicking in material from time to time, > so thank you for being part of the NewPoetry List. (Lurkers, we love you > too.) > > We currently have about 200 subscribers. Tell a friend about us. I love > hearing from the old standbys but new blood (subscribers) is a good thing > too. > > Jim Finnegan > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 16:09:36 -0600 (CST) > From: Richard S Abowitz > Subject: Contemporary American Poetry > > Please note in _Humanist_: > > A new list, dedicated to discussing contemporary American poetry, > has just started. To subscribe to the list (CAP-L) send your request to > listserv at vm1.spcs.umn.edu > The request should say SUBSCRIBE CAP-L and, if new to > the system, . > ------- > *NOTE: According to a student directory found out on the web, Richard > Abowitz and Dawn McCarra Bass were grad students at University of Minnesota > in 1996. > -- > > > Jim Finnegan > 860-508-2810 > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Feb 12 10:31:39 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 09:31:39 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Heavyweight bout: Hoagland v. Rankine Message-ID: Did I miss mention here of the big ongoing flap regarding Claudia Rankine's response at the AWP conference to Tony Hoagland's poem "The Change"? It seems to be flaring all over Facebook, the blog world, and so forth. Here's a brief recap: http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2011/02/tony-hoaglands-poem-on-race-heats-things-up-at-awp/ But I would recommend some surfing also, first to find the text of Hoagland's poem, and then to locate Rankine's blog, where she expands on her thoughts. The link above has a link that will take you to Rankine's home page. Evidently Hoagland has also responded directly to Rankine, but I haven't seen that exchange online. This whole flap erupted at the AWP conference last weekend in Washington DC. I was there, but managed to miss it entirely, and feel a little like Buster Keaton standing there oblivious while a house falls down around him. . . . ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Feb 12 10:24:10 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 09:24:10 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy 10th Anniversary NewPoetry List In-Reply-To: <8CD98D570948832-FB8-4C3E@Webmail-d123.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD985E5B32F21A-1458-2D2E@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> <8CD98D570948832-FB8-4C3E@Webmail-d123.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Let me add my hearty thanks to Finnegan for his good works, his catholic curiosity, and his steady-as-she-goes demeanor amid the occasional flare ups hereabouts. And to everyone else who has posted, regularly or irregularly. The early archives are good to have back. Look forward to perusing them at more leisure. But I see right on the very first screen that one of my first postings was a disagreement with Bob Grumman on the nature of the mainstream and "accessible" in poetry. . . . And the painted ponies go round & round! Also, I'm sorry to have fallen off in posting lately--the Toad Work squats on me, I'm afraid. Like my fellow "correspondent" Jim Cervantes, I hope to do better in the future. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Feb 12, 2011, at 8:08 AM, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > One more thing. We have a history once more. The Archives have been fully restored. First we lost the first 5 years, then we lost them all in late 2010. But Len Hatfield dug them out of digital dirt for us... > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/ > > Jim Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Feb 12 10:41:15 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 09:41:15 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy 10th Anniversary NewPoetry List In-Reply-To: References: <8CD985E5B32F21A-1458-2D2E@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> <8CD98D570948832-FB8-4C3E@Webmail-d123.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Flare-ups? In New-po world? Say it ain't so. "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home *Mainly Black , **Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ;* *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; * ***Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; * ***G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 9:24 AM, David Graham wrote: > Let me add my hearty thanks to Finnegan for his good works, his catholic > curiosity, and his steady-as-she-goes demeanor amid the occasional flare ups > hereabouts. And to everyone else who has posted, regularly or irregularly. > > > The early archives are good to have back. Look forward to perusing them at > more leisure. But I see right on the very first screen that one of my first > postings was a disagreement with Bob Grumman on the nature of the mainstream > and "accessible" in poetry. . . . And the painted ponies go round & round! > > Also, I'm sorry to have fallen off in posting lately--the Toad Work squats > on me, I'm afraid. Like my fellow "correspondent" Jim Cervantes, I hope to > do better in the future. > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Feb 12, 2011, at 8:08 AM, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > > One more thing. We have a history once more. The Archives have been fully > restored. First we lost the first 5 years, then we lost them all in late > 2010. But Len Hatfield dug them out of digital dirt for us... > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/ > > Jim Finnegan > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Feb 12 10:39:41 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 09:39:41 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Heavyweight bout: Hoagland v. Rankine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh, no! A flap? In the po-world? Oy. "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home *Mainly Black , **Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ;* *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; * ***Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; * ***G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 9:31 AM, David Graham wrote: > Did I miss mention here of the big ongoing flap regarding Claudia Rankine's > response at the AWP conference to Tony Hoagland's poem "The Change"? It > seems to be flaring all over Facebook, the blog world, and so forth. > > Here's a brief recap: > > > http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2011/02/tony-hoaglands-poem-on-race-heats-things-up-at-awp/ > > But I would recommend some surfing also, first to find the text of > Hoagland's poem, and then to locate Rankine's blog, where she expands on her > thoughts. The link above has a link that will take you to Rankine's home > page. Evidently Hoagland has also responded directly to Rankine, but I > haven't seen that exchange online. > > This whole flap erupted at the AWP conference last weekend in Washington > DC. I was there, but managed to miss it entirely, and feel a little like > Buster Keaton standing there oblivious while a house falls down around him. > . . . > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Feb 12 11:21:08 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 17:21:08 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy 10th Anniversary NewPoetry List In-Reply-To: References: <8CD985E5B32F21A-1458-2D2E@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> <8CD98D570948832-FB8-4C3E@Webmail-d123.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Not so, no no On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 4:41 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Flare-ups? In New-po world? Say it ain't so. > > > "What does a poet need an unlisted > number for?" > --George Costanza > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > *Mainly Black > , **Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ;* > *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; * > ***Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; * > ***G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 9:24 AM, David Graham wrote: > >> Let me add my hearty thanks to Finnegan for his good works, his catholic >> curiosity, and his steady-as-she-goes demeanor amid the occasional flare ups >> hereabouts. And to everyone else who has posted, regularly or irregularly. >> >> >> The early archives are good to have back. Look forward to perusing them >> at more leisure. But I see right on the very first screen that one of my >> first postings was a disagreement with Bob Grumman on the nature of the >> mainstream and "accessible" in poetry. . . . And the painted ponies go >> round & round! >> >> Also, I'm sorry to have fallen off in posting lately--the Toad Work >> squats on me, I'm afraid. Like my fellow "correspondent" Jim Cervantes, I >> hope to do better in the future. >> >> ======================================== >> David Graham >> grahamd at ripon.edu >> >> Home Page: >> http://web.me.com/drjazz >> >> Poetry Library: >> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >> ========================================== >> >> >> >> >> On Feb 12, 2011, at 8:08 AM, JforJames at aol.com wrote: >> >> One more thing. We have a history once more. The Archives have been >> fully restored. First we lost the first 5 years, then we lost them all in >> late 2010. But Len Hatfield dug them out of digital dirt for us... >> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/ >> >> Jim Finnegan >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Sat Feb 12 11:57:44 2011 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 11:57:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy 10th Anniversary NewPoetry List In-Reply-To: References: <8CD985E5B32F21A-1458-2D2E@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> <8CD98D570948832-FB8-4C3E@Webmail-d123.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: You know, I don't post as much as I should, and I've got no real excuse for *not *posting. But I want to echo others in saying thank you, Jim, for moderating this list. It's hard to believe that it's been ten years! Best, Jeff Newberry -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tony at starve.org Sat Feb 12 12:08:52 2011 From: tony at starve.org (Tony Trigilio) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 10:08:52 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy 10th Anniversary NewPoetry List Message-ID: <20110212100852.870ee2c6f4cdb7a25c6769c3e9ddf335.ade683bb01.wbe@email06.secureserver.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Sat Feb 12 12:19:47 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 17:19:47 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy 10th Anniversary NewPoetry List In-Reply-To: <20110212100852.870ee2c6f4cdb7a25c6769c3e9ddf335.ade683bb01.wbe@email06.secureserver.net> References: <20110212100852.870ee2c6f4cdb7a25c6769c3e9ddf335.ade683bb01.wbe@email06.secureserver.net> Message-ID: I'm another lurker who feels the same--thanks Jim! From: tony at starve.org To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 10:08:52 -0700 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Happy 10th Anniversary NewPoetry List Thanks, Jim, for your work as moderator. I don't get a chance to post often, but reading the list is an important part of my day. Best,Tony -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Happy 10th Anniversary NewPoetry List From: Jeff Newberry ; Date: Sat, February 12, 2011 10:57 am To: NewPoetry List You know, I don't post as much as I should, and I've got no real excuse for not posting. But I want to echo others in saying thank you, Jim, for moderating this list. It's hard to believe that it's been ten years! Best, Jeff Newberry -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 12 12:37:30 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 12:37:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy 10th Anniversary NewPoetry List In-Reply-To: <8CD98D570948832-FB8-4C3E@Webmail-d123.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD985E5B32F21A-1458-2D2E@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> <8CD98D570948832-FB8-4C3E@Webmail-d123.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D56C55A.504@nut-n-but.net> On 2/12/2011 9:08 AM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: > One more thing. We have a history once more. The Archives have been > fully restored. First we lost the first 5 years, then we lost them all > in late 2010. But Len Hatfield dug them out of digital dirt for us... > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/ > > Jim Finnegan . That's great news! There are definitely threads in the early years I consider worth saving, including ones I wasn't part of! As for the ten years, well, I may be the only one but I miss Marcus--but I do thank James for letting me continue making my inimitable contributions to the group. And everyone else who has posted, however annoyed some have sometimes made me. I really can't think of anyone who hasn't made a number of posts I've gotten something of value out of. Even Anny has. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 12 12:44:45 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 12:44:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy 10th Anniversary NewPoetry List In-Reply-To: References: <8CD985E5B32F21A-1458-2D2E@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> <8CD98D570948832-FB8-4C3E@Webmail-d123.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D56C70D.3020607@nut-n-but.net> On 2/12/2011 10:24 AM, David Graham wrote: > But I see right on the very first screen that one of my first postings > was a disagreement with Bob Grumman on the nature of the mainstream > and "accessible" in poetry. . . . And the painted ponies go round & > round! > > Ha, there we have it, David. All you had to do was agree with me back then and we could have avoided so many ponies jumping off the merry-go-round! --Bob From jforjames at aol.com Sat Feb 12 13:08:52 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 13:08:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Heavyweight bout: Hoagland v. Rankine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CD98F70A01E881-11CC-1DFDA@webmail-d037.sysops.aol.com> I didn't know the poem, but I find it's not new, first published in book back in 2003...and Garrison Keillor had on his Writers Almanac show in 2008. Interesting that it should stir things up now... http://writersalmanac.publicradio.org/index.php?date=2008/01/11 Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: David Graham To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu &Views Sent: Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:31 am Subject: [New-Poetry] Heavyweight bout: Hoagland v. Rankine Did I miss mention here of the big ongoing flap regarding Claudia Rankine's response at the AWP conference to Tony Hoagland's poem "The Change"? It seems to be flaring all over Facebook, the blog world, and so forth. Here's a brief recap: http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2011/02/tony-hoaglands-poem-on-race-heats-things-up-at-awp/ But I would recommend some surfing also, first to find the text of Hoagland's poem, and then to locate Rankine's blog, where she expands on her thoughts. The link above has a link that will take you to Rankine's home page. Evidently Hoagland has also responded directly to Rankine, but I haven't seen that exchange online. This whole flap erupted at the AWP conference last weekend in Washington DC. I was there, but managed to miss it entirely, and feel a little like Buster Keaton standing there oblivious while a house falls down around him. . . . ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== = _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From millb at aol.com Sat Feb 12 13:36:55 2011 From: millb at aol.com (Millicent Borges Accardi) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 13:36:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy 10th Anniversary NewPoetry List In-Reply-To: References: <8CD985E5B32F21A-1458-2D2E@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com><8CD98D570948832-FB8-4C3E@Webmail-d123.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CD98FAF53D2749-13C0-9887@webmail-d046.sysops.aol.com> Thanks to all of the folks who have kept this list alive! Some days it was my only thread to the world of thinking minds and poetry, and, for that, I am grateful. I know I posted in the mid-to-late 90's, but I think it's kind of great that the first post I found on the archive for me was entitled, BAP! POW! BLY!. Mill -----Original Message----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sat, Feb 12, 2011 10:07 am Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy 10th Anniversary NewPoetry List Let me add my hearty thanks to Finnegan for his good works, his catholic curiosity, and his steady-as-she-goes demeanor amid the occasional flare ups hereabouts. And to everyone else who has posted, regularly or irregularly. The early archives are good to have back. Look forward to perusing them at more leisure. But I see right on the very first screen that one of my first postings was a disagreement with Bob Grumman on the nature of the mainstream and "accessible" in poetry. . . . And the painted ponies go round & round! Also, I'm sorry to have fallen off in posting lately--the Toad Work squats on me, I'm afraid. Like my fellow "correspondent" Jim Cervantes, I hope to do better in the future. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Feb 12, 2011, at 8:08 AM, JforJames at aol.com wrote: One more thing. We have a history once more. The Archives have been fully restored. First we lost the first 5 years, then we lost them all in late 2010. But Len Hatfield dug them out of digital dirt for us... http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/ Jim Finnegan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Feb 12 14:05:08 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 20:05:08 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy 10th Anniversary NewPoetry List In-Reply-To: <4D56C55A.504@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CD985E5B32F21A-1458-2D2E@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> <8CD98D570948832-FB8-4C3E@Webmail-d123.sysops.aol.com> <4D56C55A.504@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Oh, should I sink or should I sing (?) rhetorical question, but I know you like these kinds of signs + _____ / melius abundare quam deficere Tarantino Eliot On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 6:37 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > On 2/12/2011 9:08 AM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: > > One more thing. We have a history once more. The Archives have been fully > restored. First we lost the first 5 years, then we lost them all in late > 2010. But Len Hatfield dug them out of digital dirt for us... > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/ > > Jim Finnegan > > . > That's great news! There are definitely threads in the early years I > consider worth saving, including ones I wasn't part of! As for the ten > years, well, I may be the only one but I miss Marcus--but I do thank James > for letting me continue making my inimitable contributions to the group. > And everyone else who has posted, however annoyed some have sometimes made > me. I really can't think of anyone who hasn't made a number of posts I've > gotten something of value out of. Even Anny has. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From obodooha at gmail.com Sat Feb 12 14:15:23 2011 From: obodooha at gmail.com (Obododimma Oha) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 11:15:23 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] NIU Literature Conference... Anyone going? In-Reply-To: <948FD56920B34DF3BDBFAA33C4673772@MaryAnnPC> References: <948FD56920B34DF3BDBFAA33C4673772@MaryAnnPC> Message-ID: I wish I could go. Would you be able to email a copy to me after the conference? Thanks. Obododimma. On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 9:26 AM, SULLIVAN wrote: > I will be presenting a paper on Digital Poetry at Northern Illinois > University's Midwestern Conference on Literature, Language and Media, April > 1-2. > > Is anyone else going to be there? > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- *Obododimma Oha* http://udude.wordpress.com/ (*Associate Professor of Cultural Semiotics & Stylistics*) Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & *Fellow*, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604; +234 808 264 8060. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Feb 12 14:18:23 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 13:18:23 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy 10th Anniversary NewPoetry List In-Reply-To: References: <8CD985E5B32F21A-1458-2D2E@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> <8CD98D570948832-FB8-4C3E@Webmail-d123.sysops.aol.com> <4D56C55A.504@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Even Anny? Bite your lingua, se?or. "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home *Mainly Black , **Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ;* *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; * ***Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; * ***G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 1:05 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Oh, should I sink or should I sing (?) > rhetorical question, but I know you like these kinds of signs > > + _____ / > > melius abundare quam deficere > Tarantino Eliot > > On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 6:37 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> On 2/12/2011 9:08 AM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: >> >> One more thing. We have a history once more. The Archives have been fully >> restored. First we lost the first 5 years, then we lost them all in late >> 2010. But Len Hatfield dug them out of digital dirt for us... >> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/ >> >> Jim Finnegan >> >> . >> That's great news! There are definitely threads in the early years I >> consider worth saving, including ones I wasn't part of! As for the ten >> years, well, I may be the only one but I miss Marcus--but I do thank James >> for letting me continue making my inimitable contributions to the group. >> And everyone else who has posted, however annoyed some have sometimes made >> me. I really can't think of anyone who hasn't made a number of posts I've >> gotten something of value out of. Even Anny has. >> >> --Bob >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From obodooha at gmail.com Sat Feb 12 14:37:13 2011 From: obodooha at gmail.com (Obododimma Oha) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 11:37:13 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy 10th Anniversary NewPoetry List In-Reply-To: <8CD985E5B32F21A-1458-2D2E@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD985E5B32F21A-1458-2D2E@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Glad to be here. --Obododimma. On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 3:55 PM, wrote: > Today is the 10th Anniversary of the NewPoetry List. This list was a > continuation of the CAP-L list... > > From information I rec'd from an early subscriber (Manda Surkont) to CAP-L > (Contemporary American Poetry List), that list was launched in late 1994. > (Below is an email I found out on the web that indicates that CAP-L was > launched on Dec. 5, 1994.) > > I joined CAP-L in mid-1996. It was a very active list in the mid and late > 1990s. The late 90s could be termed the heyday of the lists. Later it seemed > that the Blogosphere and then Facebook siphoned off a lot of the traffic; > and particularly lessened the conversation. But perhaps it was just that > lists lost some of their steam when the novelty wore off. It was heady thing > at first to be part of that farflung (hearing from people all over the > country and internationally, both known and unknown poets) and the > free-wheeling (all manner of topics in multiple threads going on) > conversation that the early lists made possible. > > The early CAP-L list managers were Rich Abowitz and Dawn McCarra Bass; > though, as I recall, most of the list management communication came from > Dawn. The listserv was originally hosted at the University of Minnesota*. It > seemed as though the listserv moved a couple times, possibly related to > Dawn's job changes. The CAP-L listserv was last hosted at U. of Virginia. > > Around 1999 CAP-L had about 160 members. Listserv outages became frequent > occurrences in 1999 and thus postings/conversation became more sporadic. > And the list went dark sometime in 2000. Before it failed utterly, I decided > to log in and to copy/download the CAP-L membership list. > > After a few months of missing CAP-L, and after a few unanswered queries to > Dawn about whether the list could be resurrected, in early 2001, with the > help of several active CAP-L members (David Graham, Tad Richards, Jim > Cervantes, Gray Jacobik, etc.) I started ?New-Poetry List?. Based on a lead > from David I was able to use the systems at Virginia Tech (CATH) and in > particular I got help from Len Hatfield (who still helps me with listserv > tech glitches, though he?s moved on to Oregon). > > Though we have had some turnover in the group, and some are more active > than others, we recruited a group Contributing Correspondents who help keep > things percolating by posting material occasionally that may or may not kick > off a thread. The current crew is: David , Tad, Jim, plus Halvard Johnson, > Jeff Newberry, Anny Ballardini and Amy King (who runs the much larger WomPo > list). > > Of course many of you are good about kicking in material from time to time, > so thank you for being part of the NewPoetry List. (Lurkers, we love you > too.) > > We currently have about 200 subscribers. Tell a friend about us. I love > hearing from the old standbys but new blood (subscribers) is a good thing > too. > > Jim Finnegan > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 16:09:36 -0600 (CST) > From: Richard S Abowitz > Subject: Contemporary American Poetry > > Please note in _Humanist_: > > A new list, dedicated to discussing contemporary American poetry, > has just started. To subscribe to the list (CAP-L) send your request to > listserv at vm1.spcs.umn.edu > The request should say SUBSCRIBE CAP-L and, if new to > the system, . > ------- > *NOTE: According to a student directory found out on the web, Richard > Abowitz and Dawn McCarra Bass were grad students at University of Minnesota > in 1996. > -- > > > Jim Finnegan > 860-508-2810 > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- *Obododimma Oha* http://udude.wordpress.com/ (*Associate Professor of Cultural Semiotics & Stylistics*) Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & *Fellow*, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604; +234 808 264 8060. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 12 14:46:32 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 14:46:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy 10th Anniversary NewPoetry List In-Reply-To: References: <8CD985E5B32F21A-1458-2D2E@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> <8CD98D570948832-FB8-4C3E@Webmail-d123.sysops.aol.com><4D56C55A.504@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4D56E398.2020706@nut-n-but.net> On 2/12/2011 2:05 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Oh, should I sink or should I sing (?) You should singk, of course. > rhetorical question, but I know you like these kinds of signs > > + _____ / > > melius abundare quam deficere > Tarantino Eliot . Yeah, but the only Latin I know is "stulta." --Bob, continuing to do his bit to keep New-Poetry afloat From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 12 14:48:55 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 14:48:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy 10th Anniversary NewPoetry List In-Reply-To: References: <8CD985E5B32F21A-1458-2D2E@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> <8CD98D570948832-FB8-4C3E@Webmail-d123.sysops.aol.com><4D56C55A.504@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4D56E427.3030209@nut-n-but.net> On 2/12/2011 2:18 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Even Anny? Bite your lingua, se?or. Hey, she contributed at least two posts that were worth reading! A third one, in 2006, wasn't bad, either. I stand by what I said. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From almaginnes at aol.com Sat Feb 12 15:13:21 2011 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 15:13:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Heavyweight bout: Hoagland v. Rankine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CD99086DD58673-1958-AC8A@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com> I was at that reading David, and it was one of the most disappointing events I've ever attended at an AWP Conference. Going in , I knew nothing of Rankine's work--and I still don't--but figured she must be pretty good to be paired with Charles Wright, who I consider one of America's top living poets. To spend her time on Hoagland's sorry bluinderbuss of a poem and on his response to her response and her response to his response and so on just seemed a waste of time. Honestly, I can't come up with any motive for this that is not purely self-serving on Rankine's part. For what it's worth I doubt Hoagland is any more racist than the next liberal white academic guy standing in line at Whole Foods, which is to say he is occasionally racist and sexist, as are we all. His poem is just a bad poem, period, and I would rather have seen that addressed--why are bad poems by big name poets so often published over much stronger work by lesser knowns?--than its supposed racism. -----Original Message----- From: David Graham To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu & Views Sent: Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:57 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] Heavyweight bout: Hoagland v. Rankine Did I miss mention here of the big ongoing flap regarding Claudia Rankine's response at the AWP conference to Tony Hoagland's poem "The Change"? It seems to be flaring all over Facebook, the blog world, and so forth. Here's a brief recap: http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2011/02/tony-hoaglands-poem-on-race-heats-things-up-at-awp/ But I would recommend some surfing also, first to find the text of Hoagland's poem, and then to locate Rankine's blog, where she expands on her thoughts. The link above has a link that will take you to Rankine's home page. Evidently Hoagland has also responded directly to Rankine, but I haven't seen that exchange online. This whole flap erupted at the AWP conference last weekend in Washington DC. I was there, but managed to miss it entirely, and feel a little like Buster Keaton standing there oblivious while a house falls down around him. . . . ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Sat Feb 12 15:15:19 2011 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 12:15:19 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Heavyweight bout: Hoagland v. Rankine In-Reply-To: <8CD98F70A01E881-11CC-1DFDA@webmail-d037.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD98F70A01E881-11CC-1DFDA@webmail-d037.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: there's this interesting interplay of Hoagland's audience -- he says, for this poem white, but one wonders, well, is his entire audience solidly white; and then Rankine, now working in SoCal, coming to the poem as Hoagland's colleague, not (intended or actual) audience -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Feb 12 15:18:37 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 14:18:37 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Heavyweight bout: Hoagland v. Rankine In-Reply-To: <8CD99086DD58673-1958-AC8A@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD99086DD58673-1958-AC8A@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: In answer to your question, Al: Brand names = sales = $$. We all know that. "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home *Mainly Black , **Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ;* *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; * ***Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; * ***G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 2:13 PM, wrote: > I was at that reading David, and it was one of the most disappointing > events I've ever attended at an AWP Conference. Going in , I knew nothing of > Rankine's work--and I still don't--but figured she must be pretty good to be > paired with Charles Wright, who I consider one of America's top living > poets. To spend her time on Hoagland's sorry bluinderbuss of a poem and on > his response to her response and her response to his response and so on just > seemed a waste of time. Honestly, I can't come up with any motive for this > that is not purely self-serving on Rankine's part. For what it's worth I > doubt Hoagland is any more racist than the next liberal white academic guy > standing in line at Whole Foods, which is to say he is occasionally racist > and sexist, as are we all. His poem is just a bad poem, period, and I would > rather have seen that addressed--why are bad poems by big name poets so > often published over much stronger work by lesser knowns?--than its supposed > racism. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: David Graham > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu & Views < > new-poetry at charlemagne.cddc.vt.edu> > Sent: Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:57 pm > Subject: [New-Poetry] Heavyweight bout: Hoagland v. Rankine > > Did I miss mention here of the big ongoing flap regarding Claudia > Rankine's response at the AWP conference to Tony Hoagland's poem "The > Change"? It seems to be flaring all over Facebook, the blog world, and so > forth. > > Here's a brief recap: > > > http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2011/02/tony-hoaglands-poem-on-race-heats-things-up-at-awp/ > > But I would recommend some surfing also, first to find the text of > Hoagland's poem, and then to locate Rankine's blog, where she expands on her > thoughts. The link above has a link that will take you to Rankine's home > page. Evidently Hoagland has also responded directly to Rankine, but I > haven't seen that exchange online. > > This whole flap erupted at the AWP conference last weekend in Washington > DC. I was there, but managed to miss it entirely, and feel a little like > Buster Keaton standing there oblivious while a house falls down around him. > . . . > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Feb 12 15:20:07 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 21:20:07 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Evelyn Posamentier's New Book: Message-ID: The new ebook from Argotist Ebooks is "Royal Blue Car" by Evelyn Posamentier Description: Evelyn Posamentier's "Royal Blue Car" takes you to the core of the red thread of life, in words that are given to you as grains: vivid drops of soul. Available as a free ebook here: *http://www.lulu.com/product/ebook/royal-blue-car/14712285* -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Feb 12 15:29:05 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 14:29:05 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Heavyweight bout: Hoagland v. Rankine In-Reply-To: <8CD99086DD58673-1958-AC8A@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD99086DD58673-1958-AC8A@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <90653B78-56B7-4BB6-81B9-A9FC7C4ED98A@ripon.edu> Al, what did you think of Charles Wright? I didn't hear Rankine, myself, just Wright--don't even know if she went on before or after him. But in any case we got to the reading late, heard Wright, then left. Charles Wright is one of my favorite contemporary poets, too, but I hadn't heard him in person in probably 30 years. I thought his reading was a giant snooze, and so did my wife. . . . ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Feb 12, 2011, at 2:13 PM, AlMaginnes at aol.com wrote: > I was at that reading David, and it was one of the most disappointing events I've ever attended at an AWP Conference. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 12 16:11:36 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 16:11:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Another Alphabet In-Reply-To: References: <8CD985E5B32F21A-1458-2D2E@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> <8CD98D570948832-FB8-4C3E@Webmail-d123.sysops.aol.com><4D56C55A.504@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4D56F788.5040208@nut-n-but.net> Gary Barwin posted this one at Spidertangle: A H R B C Q D W E F X L M N S G I J K O P T U V Y Z (Explanation: he alphabetized it.) --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Feb 12 19:00:24 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 19:00:24 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Heavyweight bout: Hoagland v. Rankine Message-ID: <128d95.26030e78.3a887918@cs.com> I wasn't there, but I've read a bunch of the blog posts, including Rankine's. Several things interest me: 1. The poem was published in 2006, and appeared on The Writer's Almanac in 2008. I don't recall its stirring any debate at the time. I remember it from What Narcissism Means to Me, which, as I recall, had a couple of poems that touched on racial issues. 2. Shortly after it was published, Hoagland visited one of Rankine's classes (they were colleagues then? where?) and apparently spent most of the period discussing "The Change" and arguing about it with students. 3. Rankine waited five years before attacking it publicly at AWP, apparently after telling Hoagland 48 hrs. before that she was going to do so. 4. Hoagland says it's a persona poem. I wouldn't be able to tell that from reading it. 5. It's not much of a leap from Venus to Aphrodite, an allusion that seems pretty mean-spirited at best. Here's the poem: http://writersalmanac.publicradio.org/index.php?date=2008/01/11 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Feb 12 19:07:46 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 18:07:46 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Heavyweight bout: Hoagland v. Rankine In-Reply-To: <128d95.26030e78.3a887918@cs.com> References: <128d95.26030e78.3a887918@cs.com> Message-ID: As to #4, for me that's the default assumption--that the I or the voice in a poem is a that of a persona. Nothing against either Hoagland or Rankine. Know little of either. "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home *Mainly Black , **Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ;* *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; * ***Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; * ***G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 6:00 PM, wrote: > I wasn't there, but I've read a bunch of the blog posts, including > Rankine's. Several things interest me: > > 1. The poem was published in 2006, and appeared on The Writer's Almanac > in 2008. I don't recall its stirring any debate at the time. I remember it > from *What Narcissism Means to Me*, which, as I recall, had a couple of > poems that touched on racial issues. > > 2. Shortly after it was published, Hoagland visited one of Rankine's > classes (they were colleagues then? where?) and apparently spent most of > the period discussing "The Change" and arguing about it with students. > > 3. Rankine waited five years before attacking it publicly at AWP, > apparently after telling Hoagland 48 hrs. before that she was going to do > so. > > 4. Hoagland says it's a persona poem. I wouldn't be able to tell that > from reading it. > > 5. It's not much of a leap from Venus to Aphrodite, an allusion that > seems pretty mean-spirited at best. > > Here's the poem: > > > http://writersalmanac.publicradio.org/index.php?date=2008/01/11 > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From almaginnes at aol.com Sat Feb 12 20:43:04 2011 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 20:43:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Heavyweight bout: Hoagland v. Rankine In-Reply-To: References: <8CD99086DD58673-1958-AC8A@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CD99367D73EA53-758-EA9E@Webmail-d106.sysops.aol.com> I know. But it's bullshit. As is this whole ruckus. -----Original Message----- From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:57 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Heavyweight bout: Hoagland v. Rankine In answer to your question, Al: Brand names = sales = $$. We all know that. "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 2:13 PM, wrote: I was at that reading David, and it was one of the most disappointing events I've ever attended at an AWP Conference. Going in , I knew nothing of Rankine's work--and I still don't--but figured she must be pretty good to be paired with Charles Wright, who I consider one of America's top living poets. To spend her time on Hoagland's sorry bluinderbuss of a poem and on his response to her response and her response to his response and so on just seemed a waste of time. Honestly, I can't come up with any motive for this that is not purely self-serving on Rankine's part. For what it's worth I doubt Hoagland is any more racist than the next liberal white academic guy standing in line at Whole Foods, which is to say he is occasionally racist and sexist, as are we all. His poem is just a bad poem, period, and I would rather have seen that addressed--why are bad poems by big name poets so often published over much stronger work by lesser knowns?--than its supposed racism. -----Original Message----- From: David Graham To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu & Views Sent: Sat, Feb 12, 2011 12:57 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] Heavyweight bout: Hoagland v. Rankine Did I miss mention here of the big ongoing flap regarding Claudia Rankine's response at the AWP conference to Tony Hoagland's poem "The Change"? It seems to be flaring all over Facebook, the blog world, and so forth. Here's a brief recap: http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2011/02/tony-hoaglands-poem-on-race-heats-things-up-at-awp/ But I would recommend some surfing also, first to find the text of Hoagland's poem, and then to locate Rankine's blog, where she expands on her thoughts. The link above has a link that will take you to Rankine's home page. Evidently Hoagland has also responded directly to Rankine, but I haven't seen that exchange online. This whole flap erupted at the AWP conference last weekend in Washington DC. I was there, but managed to miss it entirely, and feel a little like Buster Keaton standing there oblivious while a house falls down around him. . . . ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From almaginnes at aol.com Sat Feb 12 20:56:14 2011 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 20:56:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Heavyweight bout: Hoagland v. Rankine In-Reply-To: <90653B78-56B7-4BB6-81B9-A9FC7C4ED98A@ripon.edu> References: <8CD99086DD58673-1958-AC8A@webmail-m010.sysops.aol.com> <90653B78-56B7-4BB6-81B9-A9FC7C4ED98A@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <8CD993850B7171F-758-EBDC@Webmail-d106.sysops.aol.com> Rankine went before Wright. I enjoyed his reading. He's a low key dude in the best of times and I think that after her whatever it was, he was even more low key. After the reading someone suggested that he had read that poem with the line "If you can't say it in three lines, don't say it at all" (I'm misquoting) as a response to her. -----Original Message----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sat, Feb 12, 2011 6:12 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Heavyweight bout: Hoagland v. Rankine Al, what did you think of Charles Wright? I didn't hear Rankine, myself, just Wright--don't even know if she went on before or after him. But in any case we got to the reading late, heard Wright, then left. Charles Wright is one of my favorite contemporary poets, too, but I hadn't heard him in person in probably 30 years. I thought his reading was a giant snooze, and so did my wife. . . . ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Feb 12, 2011, at 2:13 PM, AlMaginnes at aol.com wrote: I was at that reading David, and it was one of the most disappointing events I've ever attended at an AWP Conference. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From barry.spacks at verizon.net Sat Feb 12 20:59:06 2011 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 17:59:06 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7BD15054-065A-4B7A-98F6-B3F6DD662365@verizon.net> On Feb 12, 2011, at 9:00 AM, Our David G. wrote: > Evidently Hoagland has also responded directly to Rankine, but I >> >> haven't seen that exchange online. >> Haven't seen the full exchange, but a bit of it, and am especially taken by blog follow-up comments many of which claim the poem functions as satire of racist types, others (a few) as a racist exposure of Hoagland himself. If the poem wanted to point a finger crudely at, say, redneck impulses in Suberbia, all it would need do is shift into the 3rd person, thus exempting the poet-speaker from its painful views. It stays with the first person, not as a vague persona but as a report on remnant racist thought-reactions found nearly everywhere. I see it as a brave poem of reportage, implicating the speaker (and unavoidably the poet) in a failure to achieve color-blindness in brooding over the performance of "The Other." This is a bright and civilized guy speaking, able to appreciate talent yet stuck with debilitating attitudes -- near automatic -- that few will confess and (thank you, Jesus) many struggle in action to overcome. thoughts? Barry From almaginnes at aol.com Sat Feb 12 21:12:51 2011 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 21:12:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: <7BD15054-065A-4B7A-98F6-B3F6DD662365@verizon.net> References: <7BD15054-065A-4B7A-98F6-B3F6DD662365@verizon.net> Message-ID: <8CD993AA2A644C2-758-ED48@Webmail-d106.sysops.aol.com> I give Hoagland props for acknowledging that he, as we all do, is sometimes prone to feelings of racism although a televised tennis match is a less likely setting for this than say a dark urban parking lot. But his poem was awful. -----Original Message----- From: Barry Spacks To: new-poetry Sent: Sat, Feb 12, 2011 8:59 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent On Feb 12, 2011, at 9:00 AM, Our David G. wrote: > Evidently Hoagland has also responded directly to Rankine, but I >> >> haven't seen that exchange online. >> Haven't seen the full exchange, but a bit of it, and am especially taken by blog follow-up comments many of which claim the poem functions as satire of racist types, others (a few) as a racist exposure of Hoagland himself. If the poem wanted to point a finger crudely at, say, redneck impulses in Suberbia, all it would need do is shift into the 3rd person, thus exempting the poet-speaker from its painful views. It stays with the first person, not as a vague persona but as a report on remnant racist thought-reactions found nearly everywhere. I see it as a brave poem of reportage, implicating the speaker (and unavoidably the poet) in a failure to achieve color-blindness in brooding over the performance of "The Other." This is a bright and civilized guy speaking, able to appreciate talent yet stuck with debilitating attitudes -- near automatic -- that few will confess and (thank you, Jesus) many struggle in action to overcome. thoughts? Barry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carol.dorf at gmail.com Sun Feb 13 01:32:49 2011 From: carol.dorf at gmail.com (carol dorf) Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 22:32:49 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Happy 10th Anniversary NewPoetry List In-Reply-To: <4D56E427.3030209@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CD985E5B32F21A-1458-2D2E@webmail-m090.sysops.aol.com> <8CD98D570948832-FB8-4C3E@Webmail-d123.sysops.aol.com> <4D56C55A.504@nut-n-but.net> <4D56E427.3030209@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: I'm new to the list, and appreciate the (mostly) civilized tone, and informed conversations. Thanks for doing all the work to keep it together! Carol talkingwriting.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 13 02:37:40 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 08:37:40 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Heavyweight bout: Hoagland v. Rankine In-Reply-To: <128d95.26030e78.3a887918@cs.com> References: <128d95.26030e78.3a887918@cs.com> Message-ID: I am with Sam in saying that it is not a persona poem, although the author stressed it all along the poem. If it was a persona poem (it could easily be from his viewpoint, since this might be a true event he has lived) it does not stand out in front of the reader's eyes. Who instead, my case, sees it as a 20th century poem, I am referring to the last lines, and the rise of Europe some tough little European blonde pitted against that big black girl from Alabama, cornrowed hair and Zulu bangles on her arms, some outrageous name like Vondella Aphrodite? when compared with the States, restricted in the image of Vondella Aphrodite, quite heavy and picturesque. I do not see it as a racist poem, but I know I am treading mined ground here. That is why I will stop. On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 1:00 AM, wrote: > I wasn't there, but I've read a bunch of the blog posts, including > Rankine's. Several things interest me: > > 1. The poem was published in 2006, and appeared on The Writer's Almanac > in 2008. I don't recall its stirring any debate at the time. I remember it > from *What Narcissism Means to Me*, which, as I recall, had a couple of > poems that touched on racial issues. > > 2. Shortly after it was published, Hoagland visited one of Rankine's > classes (they were colleagues then? where?) and apparently spent most of > the period discussing "The Change" and arguing about it with students. > > 3. Rankine waited five years before attacking it publicly at AWP, > apparently after telling Hoagland 48 hrs. before that she was going to do > so. > > 4. Hoagland says it's a persona poem. I wouldn't be able to tell that > from reading it. > > 5. It's not much of a leap from Venus to Aphrodite, an allusion that > seems pretty mean-spirited at best. > > Here's the poem: > > > http://writersalmanac.publicradio.org/index.php?date=2008/01/11 > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Feb 13 06:28:41 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 06:28:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: <8CD993AA2A644C2-758-ED48@Webmail-d106.sysops.aol.com> References: <7BD15054-065A-4B7A-98F6-B3F6DD662365@verizon.net> <8CD993AA2A644C2-758-ED48@Webmail-d106.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D57C069.2030008@nut-n-but.net> On 2/12/2011 9:12 PM, almaginnes at aol.com wrote: > Igive Hoagland props for acknowledging that he, as we all do, is > sometimes prone to feelings of racism although a televised tennis > match is a less likely setting for this than say a dark urban parking > lot. But his poem was awful. For Philistines a poem's socio-political content is vastly more important than its aesthetic value. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amanda at surkont.com Sun Feb 13 07:14:21 2011 From: amanda at surkont.com (Amanda Surkont) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 04:14:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Heavyweight bout: Hoagland v. Rankine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <734188.58387.qm@web1215.biz.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I am coming into this thread late and will try to go back and read the other related posts. This poem is a favorite of mine and I don't see this as a racist piece of work though I recently received an email from a reader who accused me of racism in a poem that appeared in my own book. Since the writer has the advantage of knowing intent, well I know my own intent and it was not even slightly racist and in fact it was a poem of admiration. I missed AWP so I don't know the panel / etc... . or the history of why this is coming up for attack now but will certainly look back for more history since this topic is certainly of interest to me right now. best to all, manda --- On Sun, 2/13/11, Anny Ballardini wrote: From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Heavyweight bout: Hoagland v. Rankine To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Sunday, February 13, 2011, 2:37 AM I am with Sam in saying that it is not a persona poem, although the author stressed it all along the poem. If it was a persona poem (it could easily be from his viewpoint, since this might be a true event he has lived) it does not stand out in front of the reader's eyes. Who instead, my case, sees it as a 20th century poem, I am referring to the last lines, and the rise of Europe some tough little European blonde pitted against that big black girl from Alabama, cornrowed hair and Zulu bangles on her arms, some outrageous name like Vondella Aphrodite? when compared with the States, restricted in the image of Vondella Aphrodite, quite heavy and picturesque. I do not see it as a racist poem, but I know I am treading mined ground here. That is why I will stop. ? On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 1:00 AM, wrote: I wasn't there, but I've read a bunch of the blog posts, including Rankine's.? Several things interest me: 1.??? The poem was published in 2006, and appeared on The Writer's Almanac in 2008.? I don't recall its stirring any debate at the time.? I remember it from What Narcissism Means to Me, which, as I recall, had a couple of poems that touched on racial issues. 2.??? Shortly after it was published, Hoagland visited one of Rankine's classes (they were colleagues then?? where?) and apparently spent most of the period discussing "The Change" and arguing about it with students. 3.??? Rankine waited five years before attacking it publicly at AWP, apparently after telling Hoagland 48 hrs. before that she was going to do so. 4.??? Hoagland says it's a persona poem.? I wouldn't be able to tell that from reading it. 5.??? It's not much of a leap from Venus to Aphrodite, an allusion that seems pretty mean-spirited at best. Here's the poem: http://writersalmanac.publicradio.org/index.php?date=2008/01/11 _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Sun Feb 13 11:57:30 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Mike Snider) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 11:57:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Elizabeth Bishop centennial In-Reply-To: <4D52CEFF.8080808@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CD967952467A01-1240-29A3@webmail-d002.sysops.aol.com> <4D52CEFF.8080808@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Bob, I thought I knew Bishop's poetry fairly well, but I drew a complete blank on this. Even after rereading all the poetry in the Bishop Library of America volume - which includes the surviving unpublished work - I've got zip. Can you give any other clues about the poem? Are you sure it's Bishop? www.mikesnider.org On Feb 9, 2011, at 12:29, Bob Grumman wrote: > Speaking of Elizabeth Bishop, does anyone know the title of the poem she wrote about the word, "and?" It has been one of the important poems in my life even though I never read it, only read about it. > > --Bob > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Feb 13 12:02:03 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 11:02:03 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Elizabeth Bishop centennial In-Reply-To: References: <8CD967952467A01-1240-29A3@webmail-d002.sysops.aol.com> <4D52CEFF.8080808@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <07AE5998-71F7-45AA-AD5F-873B9EF23FF6@ripon.edu> Bob's perhaps thinking about "Over 2000 Illustrations...". It's not *about* the word "and," but contains the memorable line "everything connected by 'and' and 'and'." ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Feb 13, 2011, at 10:57 AM, Mike Snider wrote: > Bob, I thought I knew Bishop's poetry fairly well, but I drew a > complete blank on this. Even after rereading all the poetry in the > Bishop Library of America volume - which includes the surviving > unpublished work - I've got zip. Can you give any other clues about > the poem? Are you sure it's Bishop? > > www.mikesnider.org > > On Feb 9, 2011, at 12:29, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> Speaking of Elizabeth Bishop, does anyone know the title of the poem she wrote about the word, "and?" It has been one of the important poems in my life even though I never read it, only read about it. >> >> --Bob >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From newpoetry at mikesnider.org Sun Feb 13 12:23:13 2011 From: newpoetry at mikesnider.org (Mike Snider) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 12:23:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Elizabeth Bishop centennial In-Reply-To: <07AE5998-71F7-45AA-AD5F-873B9EF23FF6@ripon.edu> References: <8CD967952467A01-1240-29A3@webmail-d002.sysops.aol.com> <4D52CEFF.8080808@nut-n-but.net> <07AE5998-71F7-45AA-AD5F-873B9EF23FF6@ripon.edu> Message-ID: Good call, David - In the Library of America edition that line begins the last section of the poem and follows the only white space in the poem, but the web copy at http://www.nbu.bg/webs/amb/american/5/bishop/over.htm has two: Is this it, Bob? Elizabeth Bishop Over 2,000 Illustrations and a Complete Concordance Thus should have been our travels: serious, engravable. The Seven Wonders of the World are tired and a touch familiar, but the other scenes, innumerable, though equally sad and still, are foreign. Often the squatting Arab, or group of Arabs, plotting, probably, against our Christian empire, while one apart, with outstretched arm and hand points to the Tomb, the Pit, the Sepulcher. The branches o fthe date-palms look like files. The cobbled courtyard, where the Well is dry, is like a diagram, the brickwork conduits are vast and obvious, the human figure far gone in history or theology, gone with its camel or its faithful horse. Always the silence, the gesture, the specks of birds suspended on invisible threads above the Site, or the smoke rising solemnly, pulled by threads. Granted a page alone or a page made up of several scenes arranged in cattycornered rectangles or circles set on stippled gray, granted a grim lunette, caught in the toils of an initial letter, when dwelt upon, they all resolve themselves. The eye drops, weighted, through the lines the burin made, the lines that move apart like ripples above sand, dispersing storms, God's spreading fingerprint, and painfully, finally, that ignite in watery prismatic white-and-blue. Entering the Narrows at St. Johns the touching bleat of goats reached to the ship. We glimpsed them, reddish, leaping up the cliffs among the fog-soaked weeds and butter-and-eggs. And at St. Peter's the wind blew and the sun shone madly. Rapidly, purposefully, the Collegians marched in lines, crisscrossing the great square with black, like ants. In Mexico the dead man lay in a blue arcade; the dead volcanoes glistened like Easter lilies. The jukebox went on playing "Ay, Jalisco!" And at Volubilis there were beautiful poppies splitting the mosaics; the fat old guide made eyes. In Dingle harbor a golden length of evening the rotting hulks held up their dripping plush. The Englishwoman poured tea, informing us that the Duchess was going to have a baby. And in the brothels of Marrakesh the littel pockmarked prostitutes balanced their tea-trays on their heads and did their belly-dances; flung themselves naked and giggling against our knees, asking for cigarettes. It was somewhere near there I saw what frightened me most of all: A holy grave, not looking particularly holy, one of a group under a keyhole-arched stone baldaquin open to every wind from the pink desert. An open, gritty, marble trough, carved solid with exhortation, yellowed as scattered cattle-teeth; half-filled with dust, not even the dust of the poor prophet paynim who once lay there. In a smart burnoose Khadour looked on amused. Everything only connected by "and" and "and." Open the book. (The gilt rubs off the edges of the pages and pollinates the fingertips.) Open the heavy book. Why couldn't we have seen this old Nativity while we were at it? --the dark ajar, the rocks breaking with light, an undisturbed, unbreathing flame, colorless, sparkless, freely fed on straw, and, lulled within, a family with pets, --and looked and looked our infant sight away. 1955 Everything only connected by "and" and "and." On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 12:02 PM, David Graham wrote: > Bob's perhaps thinking about "Over 2000 Illustrations...". ?It's not *about* the word "and," but contains the memorable line "everything connected by 'and' and 'and'." > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Feb 13, 2011, at 10:57 AM, Mike Snider wrote: > >> Bob, I thought I knew Bishop's poetry fairly well, but I drew a >> complete blank on this. Even after rereading all the poetry in the >> Bishop Library of America volume - which includes the surviving >> unpublished work - I've got zip. Can you give any other clues about >> the poem? Are you sure it's Bishop? >> >> www.mikesnider.org >> >> On Feb 9, 2011, at 12:29, Bob Grumman wrote: >> >>> Speaking of Elizabeth Bishop, does anyone know the title of the poem she wrote about the word, "and?" ?It has been one of the important poems in my life even though I never read it, only read about it. >>> >>> --Bob >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 13 13:06:54 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 19:06:54 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Elizabeth Bishop centennial In-Reply-To: References: <8CD967952467A01-1240-29A3@webmail-d002.sysops.aol.com> <4D52CEFF.8080808@nut-n-but.net> <07AE5998-71F7-45AA-AD5F-873B9EF23FF6@ripon.edu> Message-ID: a great poem. On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Mike Snider wrote: > Good call, David - > > In the Library of America edition that line begins the last section of > the poem and follows the only white space in the poem, but the web > copy at http://www.nbu.bg/webs/amb/american/5/bishop/over.htm has two: > > > Is this it, Bob? > > Elizabeth Bishop > > > Over 2,000 Illustrations and a Complete Concordance > > Thus should have been our travels: > serious, engravable. > The Seven Wonders of the World are tired > and a touch familiar, but the other scenes, > innumerable, though equally sad and still, > are foreign. Often the squatting Arab, > or group of Arabs, plotting, probably, > against our Christian empire, > while one apart, with outstretched arm and hand > points to the Tomb, the Pit, the Sepulcher. > The branches o fthe date-palms look like files. > The cobbled courtyard, where the Well is dry, > is like a diagram, the brickwork conduits > are vast and obvious, the human figure > far gone in history or theology, > gone with its camel or its faithful horse. > Always the silence, the gesture, the specks of birds > suspended on invisible threads above the Site, > or the smoke rising solemnly, pulled by threads. > Granted a page alone or a page made up > of several scenes arranged in cattycornered rectangles > or circles set on stippled gray, > granted a grim lunette, > caught in the toils of an initial letter, > when dwelt upon, they all resolve themselves. > The eye drops, weighted, through the lines > the burin made, the lines that move apart > like ripples above sand, > dispersing storms, God's spreading fingerprint, > and painfully, finally, that ignite > in watery prismatic white-and-blue. > > Entering the Narrows at St. Johns > the touching bleat of goats reached to the ship. > We glimpsed them, reddish, leaping up the cliffs > among the fog-soaked weeds and butter-and-eggs. > And at St. Peter's the wind blew and the sun shone madly. > Rapidly, purposefully, the Collegians marched in lines, > crisscrossing the great square with black, like ants. > In Mexico the dead man lay > in a blue arcade; the dead volcanoes > glistened like Easter lilies. > The jukebox went on playing "Ay, Jalisco!" > And at Volubilis there were beautiful poppies > splitting the mosaics; the fat old guide made eyes. > In Dingle harbor a golden length of evening > the rotting hulks held up their dripping plush. > The Englishwoman poured tea, informing us > that the Duchess was going to have a baby. > And in the brothels of Marrakesh > the littel pockmarked prostitutes > balanced their tea-trays on their heads > and did their belly-dances; flung themselves > naked and giggling against our knees, > asking for cigarettes. It was somewhere near there > I saw what frightened me most of all: > A holy grave, not looking particularly holy, > one of a group under a keyhole-arched stone baldaquin > open to every wind from the pink desert. > An open, gritty, marble trough, carved solid > with exhortation, yellowed > as scattered cattle-teeth; > half-filled with dust, not even the dust > of the poor prophet paynim who once lay there. > In a smart burnoose Khadour looked on amused. > > Everything only connected by "and" and "and." > Open the book. (The gilt rubs off the edges > of the pages and pollinates the fingertips.) > Open the heavy book. Why couldn't we have seen > this old Nativity while we were at it? > --the dark ajar, the rocks breaking with light, > an undisturbed, unbreathing flame, > colorless, sparkless, freely fed on straw, > and, lulled within, a family with pets, > --and looked and looked our infant sight away. > > 1955 > > > > Everything only connected by "and" and "and." > > On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 12:02 PM, David Graham wrote: > > Bob's perhaps thinking about "Over 2000 Illustrations...". It's not > *about* the word "and," but contains the memorable line "everything > connected by 'and' and 'and'." > > > > > > ======================================== > > David Graham > > grahamd at ripon.edu > > > > Home Page: > > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > > > Poetry Library: > > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > > ========================================== > > > > > > > > > > On Feb 13, 2011, at 10:57 AM, Mike Snider wrote: > > > >> Bob, I thought I knew Bishop's poetry fairly well, but I drew a > >> complete blank on this. Even after rereading all the poetry in the > >> Bishop Library of America volume - which includes the surviving > >> unpublished work - I've got zip. Can you give any other clues about > >> the poem? Are you sure it's Bishop? > >> > >> www.mikesnider.org > >> > >> On Feb 9, 2011, at 12:29, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> > >>> Speaking of Elizabeth Bishop, does anyone know the title of the poem > she wrote about the word, "and?" It has been one of the important poems in > my life even though I never read it, only read about it. > >>> > >>> --Bob > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> New-Poetry mailing list > >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 13 13:12:40 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 19:12:40 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Simic: Where's poetry going? In-Reply-To: <8CD96C7891A5365-1040-C298@webmail-m129.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD96C7891A5365-1040-C298@webmail-m129.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: A quiet and fantastic reading in Simic's mind. On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 12:23 AM, wrote: > http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2011/feb/07/where-poetry-going/# > > This is a question poets get asked often. The quick answer is nowhere. This > can?t be right, you are thinking. You?ve read plenty of poems about poets > walking in the woods, rolling in the hay and even taking a sightseeing trip > through hell. True enough. Nevertheless, poets, even when they are fighting > in a war, rarely take off their slippers. Doesn?t Homer?s blindness prove my > thesis? I bet every one of those eyewitness accounts of Greeks and Trojan > slaughtering each other, and the wonderful adventures Odysseus had cruising > the Mediterranean, were dreamed up by Homer while waiting for his wife to > serve lunch. > > Sure, many poets would deny this... > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com Sun Feb 13 12:45:41 2011 From: robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 12:45:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: <4D57C069.2030008@nut-n-but.net> References: <7BD15054-065A-4B7A-98F6-B3F6DD662365@verizon.net><8CD993AA2A644C2-758-ED48@Webmail-d106.sysops.aol.com> <4D57C069.2030008@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On 2/12/2011 9:12 PM, almaginnes at aol.com wrote: I give Hoagland props for acknowledging that he, as we all do, is sometimes prone to feelings of racism although a televised tennis match is a less likely setting for this than say a dark urban parking lot. But his poem was awful. For Philistines a poem's socio-political content is vastly more important than its aesthetic value. --Bob Yeah, that's what they were saying about Shelley's "Mask of Anarchy" when it came out. Always confusing politics with poetry. Terribly philistine viewpoint that. And as for your man Blake's "London" ... !!! Well. Keep poetry pure (life's simpler that way). (signaled) Mallarme for a purged aestheticism. (Actually, given the social, political, linguistic and class weighting that Matthew Arnold, consciously or not, packed into the term "Philistine" when he first applied it in this context in the nineteenth century, one can at least admire Bob for his consistency. R.) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From almaginnes at aol.com Sun Feb 13 13:17:39 2011 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:17:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: References: <7BD15054-065A-4B7A-98F6-B3F6DD662365@verizon.net><8CD993AA2A644C2-758-ED48@Webmail-d106.sysops.aol.com><4D57C069.2030008@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <8CD99C16E55DFFE-1D28-103D7@Webmail-d118.sysops.aol.com> I give Hoagland props for acknowledging that he, as we all do, is sometimes prone to feelings of racism although a televised tennis match is a less likely setting for this than say a dark urban parking lot. But his poem was awful. For Philistines a poem's socio-political content is vastly more important than its aesthetic value. --Bob Yeah, that's what they were saying about Shelley's "Mask of Anarchy" when it came out. Always confusing politics with poetry. Terribly philistine viewpoint that. And as for your man Blake's "London" ... !!! Well. Keep poetry pure (life's simpler that way). (signaled) Mallarme for a purged aestheticism. (Actually, given the social, political, linguistic and class weighting that Matthew Arnold, consciously or not, packed into the term "Philistine" when he first applied it in this context in the nineteenth century, one can at least admire Bob for his consistency. R.) I'm sorry. Were you trying to say something here? -----Original Message----- From: Robin Hamilton To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sun, Feb 13, 2011 1:15 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent On 2/12/2011 9:12 PM, almaginnes at aol.com wrote: I give Hoagland props for acknowledging that he, as we all do, is sometimes prone to feelings of racism although a televised tennis match is a less likely setting for this than say a dark urban parking lot. But his poem was awful. For Philistines a poem's socio-political content is vastly more important than its aesthetic value. --Bob Yeah, that's what they were saying about Shelley's "Mask of Anarchy" when it came out. Always confusing politics with poetry. Terribly philistine viewpoint that. And as for your man Blake's "London" ... !!! Well. Keep poetry pure (life's simpler that way). (signaled) Mallarme for a purged aestheticism. (Actually, given the social, political, linguistic and class weighting that Matthew Arnold, consciously or not, packed into the term "Philistine" when he first applied it in this context in the nineteenth century, one can at least admire Bob for his consistency. R.) _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From semanticsblack at yahoo.com Sun Feb 13 13:34:57 2011 From: semanticsblack at yahoo.com (sheila black) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 10:34:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Simic: Where's poetry going? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <288941.15704.qm@web82707.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Anybody that can write "Green Buddhas/ On the fruit stand/we eat the smile/ and spit out the teeth" has my agreement.? I love Simic's wit the most. Or even better, Simic's poem, "Concerning my Neighbors, the Hittites" --where did he go to find the questions he asks --in books? Perhaps it is really poets going nowhere/somewhere--a meditative place while they wait for their dinner. And travel? Who has the time and money to travel these days? Sheila Elizabeth Black? ?Sheila Black --- On Sun, 2/13/11, Anny Ballardini wrote: From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Simic: Where's poetry going? To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Sunday, February 13, 2011, 12:12 PM A quiet and fantastic reading in Simic's mind. On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 12:23 AM, wrote: http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2011/feb/07/where-poetry-going/# ? This is a question poets get asked often. The quick answer is nowhere. This can?t be right, you are thinking. You?ve read plenty of poems about poets walking in the woods, rolling in the hay and even taking a sightseeing trip through hell. True enough. Nevertheless, poets, even when they are fighting in a war, rarely take off their slippers. Doesn?t Homer?s blindness prove my thesis? I bet every one of those eyewitness accounts of Greeks and Trojan slaughtering each other, and the wonderful adventures Odysseus had cruising the Mediterranean, were dreamed up by Homer while waiting for his wife to serve lunch. ? Sure, many poets would deny this... _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ____________________________________________________________________________________ Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Yahoo! Small Business. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/domains/?p=BESTDEAL -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com Sun Feb 13 13:35:28 2011 From: robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 13:35:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: <8CD99C16E55DFFE-1D28-103D7@Webmail-d118.sysops.aol.com> References: <7BD15054-065A-4B7A-98F6-B3F6DD662365@verizon.net><8CD993AA2A644C2-758-ED48@Webmail-d106.sysops.aol.com><4D57C069.2030008@nut-n-but.net> <8CD99C16E55DFFE-1D28-103D7@Webmail-d118.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <9A65C6EEE69B488CAFBC38AC9511D919@RobinLaptopPC> From: almaginnes at aol.com (Actually, given the social, political, linguistic and class weighting that Matthew Arnold, consciously or not, packed into the term "Philistine" when he first applied it in this context in the nineteenth century, one can at least admire Bob for his consistency. R.) I'm sorry. Were you trying to say something here? Yup. R. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sun Feb 13 14:08:02 2011 From: tad at opus40.org (Tad Richards) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 14:08:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Simic: Where's poetry going? In-Reply-To: <8CD96C7891A5365-1040-C298@webmail-m129.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD96C7891A5365-1040-C298@webmail-m129.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: This is good. On Wed, Feb 9, 2011 at 6:23 PM, wrote: > http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2011/feb/07/where-poetry-going/# > > This is a question poets get asked often. The quick answer is nowhere. This > can?t be right, you are thinking. You?ve read plenty of poems about poets > walking in the woods, rolling in the hay and even taking a sightseeing trip > through hell. True enough. Nevertheless, poets, even when they are fighting > in a war, rarely take off their slippers. Doesn?t Homer?s blindness prove my > thesis? I bet every one of those eyewitness accounts of Greeks and Trojan > slaughtering each other, and the wonderful adventures Odysseus had cruising > the Mediterranean, were dreamed up by Homer while waiting for his wife to > serve lunch. > > Sure, many poets would deny this... > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Feb 13 14:39:31 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 14:39:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Elizabeth Bishop centennial In-Reply-To: <07AE5998-71F7-45AA-AD5F-873B9EF23FF6@ripon.edu> References: <8CD967952467A01-1240-29A3@webmail-d002.sysops.aol.com><4D52CEFF.8080808@nut-n-but.net> <07AE5998-71F7-45AA-AD5F-873B9EF23FF6@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4D583373.2050600@nut-n-but.net> On 2/13/2011 12:02 PM, David Graham wrote: > Bob's perhaps thinking about "Over 2000 Illustrations...". It's not *about* the word "and," but contains the memorable line "everything connected by 'and' and 'and'." Ooops, I just wrote in a reply to Mike that I was sure the main subject of the poem was "and," but I think you've got it, David. "Over 2000 Illustrations..." rings a bell. Possible the article I read discussed "and" at greater length. Gah, that means I need to find that article now. No, the poem should be enough. Thanks, David. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Feb 13 14:46:34 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 14:46:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: References: <7BD15054-065A-4B7A-98F6-B3F6DD662365@verizon.net><8CD993AA2A6 44C2-758-ED48@Webmail-d106.sysops.aol.com><4D57C069.2030008@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4D58351A.402@nut-n-but.net> On 2/13/2011 12:45 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > On 2/12/2011 9:12 PM, almaginnes at aol.com wrote: > >> Igive Hoagland props for acknowledging that he, as we all do, is >> sometimes prone to feelings of racism although a televised tennis >> match is a less likely setting for this than say a dark urban >> parking lot. But his poem was awful. > For Philistines a poem's socio-political content is vastly more > important than its aesthetic value. > > --Bob > Yeah, that's what they were saying about Shelley's "Mask of > Anarchy" when it came out. Always confusing politics with > poetry. Terribly philistine viewpoint that. And as for your man > Blake's "London" ... !!! Well. > Keep poetry pure (life's simpler that way). > Nah. You can't keep poetry pure--but you can make its aesthetic content central to it, and leave the politics to essayists. And I'd still say it about the poems you mention, and a lot of other well-known ones. > > (signaled) > Mallarme for a purged aestheticism. > (Actually, given the social, political, linguistic and class > weighting that Matthew Arnold, consciously or not, packed into the > term "Philistine" when he first applied it in this context in the > nineteenth century, one can at least admire Bob for his > consistency. R.) > Not that I haven't written political poems, almost all of them against the idea that politics is not 2.3% as important as art, at most. Mr. Art for Art's Sake--for for what makes life worth living more than for what make's life possible -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Feb 13 14:49:40 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 14:49:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Simic: Where's poetry going? In-Reply-To: References: <8CD96C7891A5365-1040-C298@webmail-m129.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D5835D4.9020500@nut-n-but.net> On 2/13/2011 1:12 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > A quiet and fantastic reading in Simic's mind. > > On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 12:23 AM, > wrote: > > http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2011/feb/07/where-poetry-going/# > This is a question poets get asked often. The quick answer is > nowhere. This can?t be right, you are thinking. You?ve read plenty > of poems about poets walking in the woods, rolling in the hay and > even taking a sightseeing trip through hell. True enough. > Nevertheless, poets, even when they are fighting in a war, rarely > take off their slippers. Doesn?t Homer?s blindness prove my > thesis? I bet every one of those eyewitness accounts of Greeks and > Trojan slaughtering each other, and the wonderful adventures > Odysseus had cruising the Mediterranean, were dreamed up by Homer > while waiting for his wife to serve lunch. > Sure, many poets would deny this... > What's he talking about? What does where a poet writes a poem or what he happens also to be doing at the time have to do with where poetry's going? If it's any good, it's going somewhere you can't otherwise get to. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Feb 13 14:56:51 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 14:56:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Elizabeth Bishop centennial In-Reply-To: References: <8CD967952467A01-1240-29A3@webmail-d002.sysops.aol.com><4D52CEFF.8080808@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4D583783.50500@nut-n-but.net> On 2/13/2011 11:57 AM, Mike Snider wrote: > Bob, I thought I knew Bishop's poetry fairly well, but I drew a > complete blank on this. Even after rereading all the poetry in the > Bishop Library of America volume - which includes the surviving > unpublished work - I've got zip. Can you give any other clues about > the poem? Are you sure it's Bishop? > > www.mikesnider.org Yeeks, no, Mike. All I can be sure of is that someone wrote about someone else having written a poem, or something else, concerned with what a wonderful word "and" is. I vaguely remember that "and" was the main subject, that it wasn't commented on in passing, only. I'm fairly sure it was a woman who wrote about it--Denise Levertov? Or Louise Bogan (excellent poet and critic back when the /New Yorker/ wasn't totally worthless that I haven't heard much about for a long time, not sure why). Someone well-known. The article about the poem or whatever would probably have been in /The New Criterion/ since that's about the only publication I read about mainstream poetry in. I'm pretty sure the article was in a magazine--not an Internet post. Although, there's a chance, I guess, that I came across a discussion of it at the Buffalo poetics discussion group, which was mainly where I read about poetry on the net before New-Poetry, and I think I've known about the poem or whatever for longer than ten years. It stuck in my mind because I was particularly interested in Bishop's work at the time. But also because I had just done a visual poem featuring the ampersand (I had "visual poetry" equal to ampersand squared). Anyway, I'm sure /some/one has done /some/thing on "and!" Thanks for trying to help me with it. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Feb 13 15:03:13 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 15:03:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Elizabeth Bishop centennial In-Reply-To: References: <8CD967952467A01-1240-29A3@webmail-d002.sysops.aol.com><4D52CEFF.8080808@nut-n-but.net><07AE5998-71F7-45AA-AD5F-873B9EF23FF6@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4D583901.9070100@nut-n-but.net> On 2/13/2011 12:23 PM, Mike Snider wrote: > Good call, David - > > In the Library of America edition that line begins the last section of > the poem and follows the only white space in the poem, but the web > copy at http://www.nbu.bg/webs/amb/american/5/bishop/over.htm has two: > > > Is this it, Bob? > > Elizabeth Bishop Yes! Thanks again, Mike. And now I see that I must have read this (as well as an article about it). There's only one line about "and," but "and" is--for me--the subject of the poem, the and-ness of the world. A poem I can (amazingly) agree with Anny about. But I remembered it as not bleak. Would have liked it even more if Elizabeth had been more cheerful when writing it. --Bob > > Over 2,000 Illustrations and a Complete Concordance > > Thus should have been our travels: > serious, engravable. > The Seven Wonders of the World are tired > and a touch familiar, but the other scenes, > innumerable, though equally sad and still, > are foreign. Often the squatting Arab, > or group of Arabs, plotting, probably, > against our Christian empire, > while one apart, with outstretched arm and hand > points to the Tomb, the Pit, the Sepulcher. > The branches of the date-palms look like files. > The cobbled courtyard, where the Well is dry, > is like a diagram, the brickwork conduits > are vast and obvious, the human figure > far gone in history or theology, > gone with its camel or its faithful horse. > Always the silence, the gesture, the specks of birds > suspended on invisible threads above the Site, > or the smoke rising solemnly, pulled by threads. > Granted a page alone or a page made up > of several scenes arranged in cattycornered rectangles > or circles set on stippled gray, > granted a grim lunette, > caught in the toils of an initial letter, > when dwelt upon, they all resolve themselves. > The eye drops, weighted, through the lines > the burin made, the lines that move apart > like ripples above sand, > dispersing storms, God's spreading fingerprint, > and painfully, finally, that ignite > in watery prismatic white-and-blue. > > Entering the Narrows at St. Johns > the touching bleat of goats reached to the ship. > We glimpsed them, reddish, leaping up the cliffs > among the fog-soaked weeds and butter-and-eggs. > And at St. Peter's the wind blew and the sun shone madly. > Rapidly, purposefully, the Collegians marched in lines, > crisscrossing the great square with black, like ants. > In Mexico the dead man lay > in a blue arcade; the dead volcanoes > glistened like Easter lilies. > The jukebox went on playing "Ay, Jalisco!" > And at Volubilis there were beautiful poppies > splitting the mosaics; the fat old guide made eyes. > In Dingle harbor a golden length of evening > the rotting hulks held up their dripping plush. > The Englishwoman poured tea, informing us > that the Duchess was going to have a baby. > And in the brothels of Marrakesh > the littel pockmarked prostitutes > balanced their tea-trays on their heads > and did their belly-dances; flung themselves > naked and giggling against our knees, > asking for cigarettes. It was somewhere near there > I saw what frightened me most of all: > A holy grave, not looking particularly holy, > one of a group under a keyhole-arched stone baldaquin > open to every wind from the pink desert. > An open, gritty, marble trough, carved solid > with exhortation, yellowed > as scattered cattle-teeth; > half-filled with dust, not even the dust > of the poor prophet paynim who once lay there. > In a smart burnoose Khadour looked on amused. > > Everything only connected by "and" and "and." > Open the book. (The gilt rubs off the edges > of the pages and pollinates the fingertips.) > Open the heavy book. Why couldn't we have seen > this old Nativity while we were at it? > --the dark ajar, the rocks breaking with light, > an undisturbed, unbreathing flame, > colorless, sparkless, freely fed on straw, > and, lulled within, a family with pets, > --and looked and looked our infant sight away. > > 1955 > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Feb 13 15:26:21 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 15:26:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: <9A65C6EEE69B488CAFBC38AC9511D919@RobinLaptopPC> References: <7BD15054-065A-4B7A-98F6-B3F6DD662365@verizon.net><8CD993AA2A6 44C2-758-ED48@Webmail-d106.sysops.aol.com><4D57C069.2030008@nut-n-but.net><8CD9 9C16E55DFFE-1D28-103D7@Webmail-d118.sysops.aol.com> <9A65C6EEE69B488CAFBC38AC9511D919@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4D583E6D.7020906@nut-n-but.net> On 2/13/2011 1:35 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > > *From:* almaginnes at aol.com > > (Actually, given the social, political, linguistic and class > weighting that Matthew Arnold, consciously or not, packed into > the term "Philistine" when he first applied it in this context > in the nineteenth century, one can at least admire Bob for his > consistency. R.) > > > I'm sorry. Were you trying to say something here? > Yup. > R. > > Aah, he's just another one of them commies, Al--you can ignore him. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 13 16:27:31 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 22:27:31 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Simic: Where's poetry going? In-Reply-To: <4D5835D4.9020500@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CD96C7891A5365-1040-C298@webmail-m129.sysops.aol.com> <4D5835D4.9020500@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Interesting what Bob rumbled here: *If it's any good, it's going somewhere you can't otherwise get to. * On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 8:49 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > On 2/13/2011 1:12 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > A quiet and fantastic reading in Simic's mind. > > On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 12:23 AM, wrote: > >> http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2011/feb/07/where-poetry-going/# >> >> This is a question poets get asked often. The quick answer is nowhere. >> This can?t be right, you are thinking. You?ve read plenty of poems about >> poets walking in the woods, rolling in the hay and even taking a sightseeing >> trip through hell. True enough. Nevertheless, poets, even when they are >> fighting in a war, rarely take off their slippers. Doesn?t Homer?s blindness >> prove my thesis? I bet every one of those eyewitness accounts of Greeks and >> Trojan slaughtering each other, and the wonderful adventures Odysseus had >> cruising the Mediterranean, were dreamed up by Homer while waiting for his >> wife to serve lunch. >> >> Sure, many poets would deny this... >> > > What's he talking about? What does where a poet writes a poem or what he > happens also to be doing at the time have to do with where poetry's going? > If it's any good, it's going somewhere you can't otherwise get to. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sun Feb 13 16:34:39 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 15:34:39 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Simic: Where's poetry going? In-Reply-To: References: <8CD96C7891A5365-1040-C298@webmail-m129.sysops.aol.com> <4D5835D4.9020500@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: But even bad poems take you somewhere you can't otherwise get to, as do all those in between. Whether you want to go there is another question. "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home *Mainly Black , **Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ;* *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; * ***Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; * ***G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 3:27 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Interesting what Bob rumbled here: > *If it's any good, it's going somewhere you can't otherwise get to. > * > > On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 8:49 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> On 2/13/2011 1:12 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: >> >> A quiet and fantastic reading in Simic's mind. >> >> On Thu, Feb 10, 2011 at 12:23 AM, wrote: >> >>> http://www.nybooks.com/blogs/nyrblog/2011/feb/07/where-poetry-going/# >>> >>> This is a question poets get asked often. The quick answer is nowhere. >>> This can?t be right, you are thinking. You?ve read plenty of poems about >>> poets walking in the woods, rolling in the hay and even taking a sightseeing >>> trip through hell. True enough. Nevertheless, poets, even when they are >>> fighting in a war, rarely take off their slippers. Doesn?t Homer?s blindness >>> prove my thesis? I bet every one of those eyewitness accounts of Greeks and >>> Trojan slaughtering each other, and the wonderful adventures Odysseus had >>> cruising the Mediterranean, were dreamed up by Homer while waiting for his >>> wife to serve lunch. >>> >>> Sure, many poets would deny this... >>> >> >> What's he talking about? What does where a poet writes a poem or what he >> happens also to be doing at the time have to do with where poetry's going? >> If it's any good, it's going somewhere you can't otherwise get to. >> >> --Bob >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Feb 13 17:21:07 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 17:21:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Simic: Where's poetry going? In-Reply-To: References: <8CD96C7891A5365-1040-C298@webmail-m129.sysops.aol.com> <4D5835D4.9020500@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4D585953.40507@nut-n-but.net> On 2/13/2011 4:34 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > But even bad poems take you somewhere you > can't otherwise get to, as do all those in between. > Whether you want to go there is another question. Bad poems take you to the same not new place dozens of other bad poems have. Of course, if you want to be silly, you can claim everything takes you to a new place, but I'm talking about a significantly new significant place. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Feb 13 19:18:41 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 19:18:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Heavyweight bout: Hoagland v. Rankine In-Reply-To: <128d95.26030e78.3a887918@cs.com> References: <128d95.26030e78.3a887918@cs.com> Message-ID: <8CD99F3DD8FF803-1288-13803@webmail-m095.sysops.aol.com> aI was not at AWP. I don't know the b -----Original Message----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:00 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Heavyweight bout: Hoagland v. Rankine I wasn't there, but I've read a bunch of the blog posts, including Rankine's. Several things interest me: 1. The poem was published in 2006, and appeared on The Writer's Almanac in 2008. I don't recall its stirring any debate at the time. I remember it from What Narcissism Means to Me, which, as I recall, had a couple of poems that touched on racial issues. 2. Shortly after it was published, Hoagland visited one of Rankine's classes (they were colleagues then? where?) and apparently spent most of the period discussing "The Change" and arguing about it with students. 3. Rankine waited five years before attacking it publicly at AWP, apparently after telling Hoagland 48 hrs. before that she was going to do so. 4. Hoagland says it's a persona poem. I wouldn't be able to tell that from reading it. 5. It's not much of a leap from Venus to Aphrodite, an allusion that seems pretty mean-spirited at best. Here's the poem: http://writersalmanac.publicradio.org/index.php?date=2008/01/11 _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Feb 13 19:44:26 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 19:44:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Heavyweight bout: Hoagland v. Rankine In-Reply-To: <8CD99F6BED4B94F-1288-13A01@webmail-m095.sysops.aol.com> References: <128d95.26030e78.3a887918@cs.com> <8CD99F3DD8FF803-1288-13803@webmail-m095.sysops.aol.com> <8CD99F6BED4B94F-1288-13A01@webmail-m095.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CD99F777499E15-1288-13A91@webmail-m095.sysops.aol.com> Start again... I was not at AWP. I only read the poem yesterday.I don't know any ofthe backstory of communication between Rankine and Hoagland, but here are a few thoughts: It seems Hoagland knows the poem is pushing buttons. He's definitely testing an edge. Though we can't assume speaker=author, Hoagland has written many poems where it seems evident 'speaker=author' and this one does little to characterize the speaker as some other person. The "Aphrodite" (Venus Williams) character is presented as extremely forceful figure. She is forceful beyond history. Despite playing with her name rather obviously offensive way (not that comedians like Chelsea Handler haven't done much the same) she is presented as force of nature. And I think that is perhaps being overlooked to some degree. The time period of the poem coincides with a period when many Americans were not very proud of their country's actions on the world stage and thus identifying with the European is not totally about 'tribe', I don't think. It's a poem that makes me feel uncomfortable. I think any white person can/should recognize elements of latent racism. (Mine tends to arise when a young man with pants halfway down his butt walks oozingly slowly across the street in front of my car, as if daring me to hit him, a good two hundred feet from the nearest crossing point.) After the Obama election victory of 2008 I heard many white people (businessmen in particular) express/mark a similar sentiment about "the change." Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: jforjames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sun, Feb 13, 2011 7:18 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Heavyweight bout: Hoagland v. Rankine aI was not at AWP. I don't know the b -----Original Message----- From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:00 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Heavyweight bout: Hoagland v. Rankine I wasn't there, but I've read a bunch of the blog posts, including Rankine's. Several things interest me: 1. The poem was published in 2006, and appeared on The Writer's Almanac in 2008. I don't recall its stirring any debate at the time. I remember it from What Narcissism Means to Me, which, as I recall, had a couple of poems that touched on racial issues. 2. Shortly after it was published, Hoagland visited one of Rankine's classes (they were colleagues then? where?) and apparently spent most of the period discussing "The Change" and arguing about it with students. 3. Rankine waited five years before attacking it publicly at AWP, apparently after telling Hoagland 48 hrs. before that she was going to do so. 4. Hoagland says it's a persona poem. I wouldn't be able to tell that from reading it. 5. It's not much of a leap from Venus to Aphrodite, an allusion that seems pretty mean-spirited at best. Here's the poem: http://writersalmanac.publicradio.org/index.php?date=2008/01/11 _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com Sun Feb 13 19:45:15 2011 From: robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 19:45:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: <4D583E6D.7020906@nut-n-but.net> References: <7BD15054-065A-4B7A-98F6-B3F6DD662365@verizon.net><8CD993AA2A644C2-758-ED48@Webmail-d106.sysops.aol.com><4D57C069.2030008@nut-n-but.net><8CD99C16E55DFFE-1D28-103D7@Webmail-d118.sysops.aol.com><9A65C6EEE69B488CAFBC38AC9511D919@RobinLaptopPC> <4D583E6D.7020906@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <51794757F08A471D89AA399B8035AF70@RobinLaptopPC> (Actually, given the social, political, linguistic and class weighting that Matthew Arnold, consciously or not, packed into the term "Philistine" when he first applied it in this context in the nineteenth century, one can at least admire Bob for his consistency. R.) I'm sorry. Were you trying to say something here? Yup. R. Aah, he's just another one of them commies, Al--you can ignore him. --Bob Actually, Bob, I think of my spiritual political home as the old ILP, and that vanished into the maw of larger Labour Party in the UK in the twenties. So I've been homeless ever since. R. for the anarcho-syndicalists. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Sun Feb 13 20:03:56 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 01:03:56 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: <51794757F08A471D89AA399B8035AF70@RobinLaptopPC> References: <7BD15054-065A-4B7A-98F6-B3F6DD662365@verizon.net><8CD993AA2A644C2-758-ED48@Webmail-d106.sysops.aol.com><4D57C069.2030008@nut-n-but.net><8CD99C16E55DFFE-1D28-103D7@Webmail-d118.sysops.aol.com><9A65C6EEE69B488CAFBC38AC9511D919@RobinLaptopPC>, <4D583E6D.7020906@nut-n-but.net>, <51794757F08A471D89AA399B8035AF70@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: ILP--what a lovely name to hear(!), and to think of the old Labor, or when people remembered the old labor... Anarcho-syndicalists indeed! As for the Hoagland-Rankine fracas to comment on Jim's post-- I think the poem is meant to occupy an edge--much better way perhaps to deal with race in America that to pretend it isn't so, or the edge is not there or maybe never was there. As such the poem does make me uncomfortable--I think it is meant to, which could have sparked a compelling conversation, which the AWP thing was not--it seemed more to lead to lots of pious assertions of how the speaker--whoever he or she was--was not racist, which was neither interesting or helpful but seemed in the context faintly mean-spirited. I am still curious about why the poem, published more than a few years back--2003?--should be the subject of such controversy now. I wonder, too, after reading Rankine's speech, about the discourse of feeling--it is hard to deny feeling, but also hard to respond to it in terms of having a conversation or making a counter-argument-- and I'm struck the way this argument--as perhaps all arguments based on a rhetoric of feeling--seemed to sharply polarize its audience--people condemning other people--which depresses me a little. I don't think I am putting "rhetoric of feeling" very well, but I was struck that Rankine's speech was an awful lot about how the poem made her feel---and this was the basis of her response to it rather than, say, an analysis of what the poem was saying and why or how she found it offensive. I should add that I think Tony Hoagland does like to push buttons, but it is hard to see that he does so except in a spirit of wanting to open dialogue, to raise, as it were (apologies in advance to Bob who I know does not like this in poetry), questions of social and political content.... Sheila From: robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 19:45:15 -0500 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent (Actually, given the social, political, linguistic and class weighting that Matthew Arnold, consciously or not, packed into the term "Philistine" when he first applied it in this context in the nineteenth century, one can at least admire Bob for his consistency. R.) I'm sorry. Were you trying to say something here? Yup. R. Aah, he's just another one of them commies, Al--you can ignore him. --Bob Actually, Bob, I think of my spiritual political home as the old ILP, and that vanished into the maw of larger Labour Party in the UK in the twenties. So I've been homeless ever since. R. for the anarcho-syndicalists. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From almaginnes at aol.com Sun Feb 13 20:08:37 2011 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 01:08:37 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: References: <7BD15054-065A-4B7A-98F6-B3F6DD662365@verizon.net><8CD993AA2A644C2-758-ED48@Webmail-d106.sysops.aol.com><4D57C069.2030008@nut-n-but.net><8CD99C16E55DFFE-1D28-103D7@Webmail-d118.sysops.aol.com><9A65C6EEE69B488CAFBC38AC9511D919@RobinLaptopPC>, <4D583E6D.7020906@nut-n-but.net>, <51794757F08A471D89AA399B8035AF70@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <665197501-1297645717-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-630136710-@bda2910.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Does no one agree that it's a bad poem? Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: sheila black Sender: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 01:03:56 To: Reply-To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com Sun Feb 13 20:29:43 2011 From: robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 20:29:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: <665197501-1297645717-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-630136710-@bda2910.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <7BD15054-065A-4B7A-98F6-B3F6DD662365@verizon.net><8CD993AA2A644C2-758-ED48@Webmail-d106.sysops.aol.com><4D57C069.2030008@nut-n-but.net><8CD99C16E55DFFE-1D28-103D7@Webmail-d118.sysops.aol.com><9A65C6EEE69B488CAFBC38AC9511D919@RobinLaptopPC>, <4D583E6D.7020906@nut-n-but.net>, <51794757F08A471D89AA399B8035AF70@RobinLaptopPC> <665197501-1297645717-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-630136710-@bda2910.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: I think it's singularly inept, with the verbal registers all over the place. If the register-switches were deliberate, well maybe there might be a case for it, but my feeling is the author simply can't disentangle his own speech from the putative redneck ghost. I mean, I can see a situation in which Aphrodite Williams might be regularised or reduced to a more familiar Venus Williams, but the other way around? WTF ... Also, the concept of *anyone playing tennis while wearing bangles makes the mind (or at least mine) boggle. Deserves a pat on the head for being good-hearted, but the author ought to be sent away to do some revision on it. If I were a magazine editor, I wouldn't have published it as it stood, but I'd probably have sent the author a letter of encouragement, suggesting he or she submit again later. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: To: "NewPoetry List" Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2011 8:08 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent > Does no one agree that it's a bad poem? > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry From ellenmiller-mack at comcast.net Sun Feb 13 21:23:45 2011 From: ellenmiller-mack at comcast.net (ellenmiller-mack at comcast.net) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 02:23:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: <665197501-1297645717-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-630136710-@bda2910.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <1037897703.965241.1297650225280.JavaMail.root@sz0105a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> I've restrained myself-- I'm new on the list. But suffice it to say my heart is pounding & I must finally say something. If you're gay, & someone says or writes something homophobic, you know it & it hurts. You don't need a panel of poets to analyze & pass judgment. & if you're Jewish... I think you get the picture. I happen to be white-- give it up already. When a person of color is offended by racist stereotypes it is EXACTLY THAT. ----- Original Message ----- From: almaginnes at aol.com To: "NewPoetry List" Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2011 8:08:37 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent Does no one agree that it's a bad poem? Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: sheila black Sender: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 01:03:56 To: Reply-To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Sun Feb 13 21:33:43 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 18:33:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?Trailer_for_Lee_Chang-Dong=E2=80=99s_Poetr?= =?utf-8?q?y?= Message-ID: <192269.64703.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Trailer for Lee Chang-Dong?s Poetry - http://wildgrounds.com/index.php/2010/02/04/trailer-for-lee-chang-dongs-poetry/~~ ?Are you a poet?? someone asks her. ?No,? she says. ?I?m just trying to write poem.? The underlying power of Lee?s movies comes from his decisive rejection of blatant sentimentality. Indie Wire - http://www.indiewire.com/article/cannes_review_solace_in_verse_lee_chang-dongs_poetry/ ~~ Salon - http://www.salon.com/entertainment/movies/andrew_ohehir/2011/02/11/poetry/ ********* VIDA: Women in Literary Arts + Interviews Amy's Alias + http://amyking.org/ ******** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com Sun Feb 13 21:02:40 2011 From: robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 21:02:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: References: <7BD15054-065A-4B7A-98F6-B3F6DD662365@verizon.net><8CD993AA2A644C2-758-ED48@Webmail-d106.sysops.aol.com><4D57C069.2030008@nut-n-but.net><8CD99C16E55DFFE-1D28-103D7@Webmail-d118.sysops.aol.com><9A65C6EEE69B488CAFBC38AC9511D919@RobinLaptopPC>, <4D583E6D.7020906@nut-n-but.net>, <51794757F08A471D89AA399B8035AF70@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <1DCB1B8F7EA247E9B6C934B1C2E66522@RobinLaptopPC> ILP--what a lovely name to hear(!), and to think of the old Labor, or when people remembered the old labor... Actually, Sheila, I'm probably the last of the generation whose personal memory does just embrace the Independent Labour Party. Almost everyone involved came from Glasgow, and when it imploded in the nineteen twenties, the major figures went off in varying directions. James Maxton (my great-grand uncle stood against him as a Liberal Party councilor -- and lost!) left politics, John MacLean ("The English Poisoned John MacLean") went mad and died, David Kirkwood (my personal hero) and Manny Shinwell (spit!) joined the Official Labour Party, while Willie Gallagher held his seat as a communist. When I was mibee twelve or thirteen, living in Crosshill, I looked out the window and saw this old man slowly walking down the street, leaning on a stick. It was Willie Gallagher. My mother was at university with most of their kids, and was much less sympathetic to the ILP than I was. (But then her political hero was Margaret Thatcher.) It's difficult to disentangle politics and poetry if you come from Glasgow -- as Bob would no doubt be better able to tell you than I, since even the visual/concrete poets there such as nick e. melville are political. (And funny.) Anarcho-syndicalists indeed! Me and Noam Chomsky -- we're a rare breed ... Robin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sun Feb 13 21:53:41 2011 From: tad at opus40.org (Tad Richards) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 21:53:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Heavyweight bout: Hoagland v. Rankine In-Reply-To: <8CD99F777499E15-1288-13A91@webmail-m095.sysops.aol.com> References: <128d95.26030e78.3a887918@cs.com> <8CD99F3DD8FF803-1288-13803@webmail-m095.sysops.aol.com> <8CD99F6BED4B94F-1288-13A01@webmail-m095.sysops.aol.com> <8CD99F777499E15-1288-13A91@webmail-m095.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: "Persona poem" in this case feels like a cop-out to me. On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 7:44 PM, wrote: > > Start again... > I was not at AWP. I only read the poem yesterday.I don't know any ofthe > backstory of communication between Rankine and Hoagland, but here are a few > thoughts: > > It seems Hoagland knows the poem is pushing buttons. He's definitely > testing an edge. > > Though we can't assume speaker=author, Hoagland has written many poems > where it seems evident 'speaker=author' and this one does little to > characterize the speaker as some other person. > > The "Aphrodite" (Venus Williams) character is presented as extremely > forceful figure. She is forceful beyond history. Despite playing with her > name rather obviously offensive way (not that comedians like Chelsea Handler > haven't done much the same) she is presented as force of nature. And I think > that is perhaps being overlooked to some degree. > > The time period of the poem coincides with a period when many Americans > were not very proud of their country's actions on the world stage and thus > identifying with the European is not totally about 'tribe', I don't think. > > It's a poem that makes me feel uncomfortable. I think any white person > can/should recognize elements of latent racism. (Mine tends to arise when a > young man with pants halfway down his butt walks oozingly slowly across the > street in front of my car, as if daring me to hit him, a good two hundred > feet from the nearest crossing point.) > After the Obama election victory of 2008 I heard many white people > (businessmen in particular) express/mark a similar sentiment about "the > change." > Finnegan > > -----Original Message----- > From: jforjames at aol.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Sun, Feb 13, 2011 7:18 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Heavyweight bout: Hoagland v. Rankine > > aI was not at AWP. I don't know the b > > -----Original Message----- > From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Sat, Feb 12, 2011 7:00 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Heavyweight bout: Hoagland v. Rankine > > I wasn't there, but I've read a bunch of the blog posts, including > Rankine's. Several things interest me: > > 1. The poem was published in 2006, and appeared on The Writer's Almanac > in 2008. I don't recall its stirring any debate at the time. I remember it > from *What Narcissism Means to Me*, which, as I recall, had a couple of > poems that touched on racial issues. > > 2. Shortly after it was published, Hoagland visited one of Rankine's > classes (they were colleagues then? where?) and apparently spent most of > the period discussing "The Change" and arguing about it with students. > > 3. Rankine waited five years before attacking it publicly at AWP, > apparently after telling Hoagland 48 hrs. before that she was going to do > so. > > 4. Hoagland says it's a persona poem. I wouldn't be able to tell that > from reading it. > > 5. It's not much of a leap from Venus to Aphrodite, an allusion that > seems pretty mean-spirited at best. > > Here's the poem: > > http://writersalmanac.publicradio.org/index.php?date=2008/01/11 > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Sun Feb 13 21:55:29 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 02:55:29 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: <1DCB1B8F7EA247E9B6C934B1C2E66522@RobinLaptopPC> References: <7BD15054-065A-4B7A-98F6-B3F6DD662365@verizon.net><8CD993AA2A644C2-758-ED48@Webmail-d106.sysops.aol.com><4D57C069.2030008@nut-n-but.net><8CD99C16E55DFFE-1D28-103D7@Webmail-d118.sysops.aol.com><9A65C6EEE69B488CAFBC38AC9511D919@RobinLaptopPC>, , <4D583E6D.7020906@nut-n-but.net>, , <51794757F08A471D89AA399B8035AF70@RobinLaptopPC>, , <1DCB1B8F7EA247E9B6C934B1C2E66522@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: Oh, how funny--my mother is from Glasgow. Actually, she grew up in Millport in the Firth of Clyde because her Dad died in World War 11--volunteered in '38 and died in like '42--and he had been a doctor, but after there was no money so they lived in the vacation home of some relative or other. But they were all the old labor--and now my aunts--getting on now--are still all ardent Scots Nats! Willie Gallagher--now there's another name that brings back memories of family chatter... You and Noam Chomsky--good company! Sheila From: robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 21:02:40 -0500 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent ILP--what a lovely name to hear(!), and to think of the old Labor, or when people remembered the old labor... Actually, Sheila, I'm probably the last of the generation whose personal memory does just embrace the Independent Labour Party. Almost everyone involved came from Glasgow, and when it imploded in the nineteen twenties, the major figures went off in varying directions. James Maxton (my great-grand uncle stood against him as a Liberal Party councilor -- and lost!) left politics, John MacLean ("The English Poisoned John MacLean") went mad and died, David Kirkwood (my personal hero) and Manny Shinwell (spit!) joined the Official Labour Party, while Willie Gallagher held his seat as a communist. When I was mibee twelve or thirteen, living in Crosshill, I looked out the window and saw this old man slowly walking down the street, leaning on a stick. It was Willie Gallagher. My mother was at university with most of their kids, and was much less sympathetic to the ILP than I was. (But then her political hero was Margaret Thatcher.) It's difficult to disentangle politics and poetry if you come from Glasgow -- as Bob would no doubt be better able to tell you than I, since even the visual/concrete poets there such as nick e. melville are political. (And funny.) Anarcho-syndicalists indeed! Me and Noam Chomsky -- we're a rare breed ... Robin _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sun Feb 13 22:02:54 2011 From: tad at opus40.org (Tad Richards) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 22:02:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sudden Idea Re: a Bests Anthology In-Reply-To: <4D554E21.5060501@nut-n-but.net> References: <4D554E21.5060501@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: You've had worse ideas. On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 9:56 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Here's the simple idea: set up a website for *My Best Poem*. Anybody who > wanted to could contribute one poem (by any definition so long as it wasn't > outrageously huge) to it a year provided the poem had been composed during > the year just past and its author thought it his best. Each poem would be > indexed by author's name. Anybody who wanted to could also, when all the > poems for a year had been posted, make one personal list of ten favorites > per year, excluding his own. This would also be posted and indexed. A year > later, a list could be compiled of the ten poems appearing on most lists. > Interesting wars could be fought about how few or many poems by females were > listed. Or by visual poets. > > I did something like this once for visiotextual artists, but hardcopy, and > for only twenty or twenty-one artists. It was open to anyone but announced > at Spidertangle only. I asked for the artist's favorite poem ever, with a > commentary on it about the reason the artist liked it and whatever else the > artist wanted to say about it. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Feb 13 21:09:24 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 21:09:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: <665197501-1297645717-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-630136710-@bda2910.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <7BD15054-065A-4B7A-98F6-B3F6DD662365@verizon.net><8CD993AA2A6 44C2-758-ED48@Webmail-d106.sysops.aol.com><4D57C069.2030008@nut-n-but.net><8CD9 9C16E55DFFE-1D28-103D7@Webmail-d118.sysops.aol.com><9A65C6EEE69B488CAFBC38AC9511D919@RobinLaptopPC>, <4D583E6D.7020906@nut-n-but.net>, <51794757F08A471D89AA399B8035AF70@RobinLaptopPC> <665197501-1297645717-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-630136710-@bda2910.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <4D588ED4.9@nut-n-but.net> On 2/13/2011 8:08 PM, almaginnes at aol.com wrote: > Does no one agree that it's a bad poem? I thought I implied that I did. And I do, even if I haven't read it. Bad enough that it seems to be almost entirely socio-political, but it is also trivially that. --Bob From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun Feb 13 22:24:40 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 22:24:40 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent Message-ID: <2d4ed.4e743a0a.3a89fa78@cs.com> In a message dated 2/13/2011 7:29:38 PM Central Standard Time, robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com writes: > > Deserves a pat on the head for being good-hearted, but the author ought to > > be sent away to do some revision on it. > > If I were a magazine editor, I wouldn't have published it as it stood, but > > I'd probably have sent the author a letter of encouragement, suggesting he > > or she submit again later. > > Robin > Good point about those bangles. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun Feb 13 22:28:20 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 22:28:20 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent Message-ID: <2d6db.525c95da.3a89fb54@cs.com> In a message dated 2/13/2011 8:26:24 PM Central Standard Time, ellenmiller-mack at comcast.net writes: > I think you get the picture. I happen to be white-- give it up already. > When a person of color is offended by racist stereotypes it is EXACTLY > THAT. If the two Williams sisters (who seem to be referenced here) constitute a stereotype--powerful, aggressive African-American women's tennis players--it's a pretty small stereotypical group. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Feb 13 23:17:33 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 23:17:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: <1037897703.965241.1297650225280.JavaMail.root@sz0105a.west chester.pa.mail.comcast.net> References: <665197501-1297645717-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-630136710-@bda2910.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <1037897703.965241.1297650225280.JavaMail.root@sz0105a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: Which makes it hard to dramatize a racial stereotype. This is I think a bigger issue for us as writers than a third rate argument about a second rate poem, regardless of the intentions of the poet. It's about how much of what we think and feel, or think those around us think and feel, is to remain unmentionable. I'm not big on censorship. Even self-censorship. Best, Mark At 09:23 PM 2/13/2011, you wrote: >I've restrained myself-- I'm new on the list. >But suffice it to say my heart is pounding & I >must finally say something. If you're gay, & >someone says or writes something homophobic, you >know it & it hurts. You don't need a panel of >poets to analyze & pass judgment. & if you're >Jewish... I think you get the picture. I happen >to be white-- give it up already. When a person >of color is offended by racist stereotypes it is EXACTLY THAT. > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: almaginnes at aol.com >To: "NewPoetry List" >Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2011 8:08:37 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent > >Does no one agree that it's a bad poem? >Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > >-----Original Message----- >From: sheila black >Sender: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 01:03:56 >To: >Reply-To: NewPoetry List >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Feb 13 23:25:19 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 23:25:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: References: <7BD15054-065A-4B7A-98F6-B3F6DD662365@verizon.net> <8CD993AA2A644C2-758-ED48@Webmail-d106.sysops.aol.com> <4D57C069.2030008@nut-n-but.net> <8CD99C16E55DFFE-1D28-103D7@Webmail-d118.sysops.aol.com> <9A65C6EEE69B488CAFBC38AC9511D919@RobinLaptopPC> <4D583E6D.7020906@nut-n-but.net> <51794757F08A471D89AA399B8035AF70@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: I'm with you. To add a bit: the speaker screws up Venus Williams' name because he finds it outlandish. If one needed an indication that the poet is not the speaker this would do. But it's never either/or--a fictional persona always takes part in aspects of the author's personality. The poem isolates the latent racism that the author wishes to look at in the character of the persona. Those old enough to remember probably are aware that tennis was the sport of country clubs and estates. It was lily-white and very conservative. This is a poem about the awareness that that wall has been broken open. That said, it's not a very good poem. But it's also not a racist poem. Best, Mark At 08:03 PM 2/13/2011, you wrote: >ILP--what a lovely name to hear(!), and to think >of the old Labor, or when people remembered the old labor... > >Anarcho-syndicalists indeed! > >As for the Hoagland-Rankine fracas to comment on Jim's post-- > >I think the poem is meant to occupy an >edge--much better way perhaps to deal with race >in America that to pretend it isn't so, or the edge is not there >or maybe never was there. > >As such the poem does make me uncomfortable--I >think it is meant to, which could have sparked a compelling conversation, > >which the AWP thing was not--it seemed more to >lead to lots of pious assertions of how the >speaker--whoever he or she was--was not >racist, which was neither interesting or helpful but seemed in the context > >faintly mean-spirited. I am still curious about >why the poem, published more than a few years >back--2003?--should be the subject of >such controversy now. > >I wonder, too, after reading Rankine's speech, >about the discourse of feeling--it is hard to >deny feeling, but also hard to respond to it in >terms of having a conversation or making a >counter-argument-- and I'm struck the way this >argument--as perhaps all arguments based on a rhetoric of feeling--seemed to > >sharply polarize its audience--people condemning >other people--which depresses me a little. I >don't think I am putting "rhetoric of feeling" very well, >but I was struck that Rankine's speech was an >awful lot about how the poem made her feel---and this was the basis of her > >response to it rather than, say, an analysis of >what the poem was saying and why or how she >found it offensive. I should add that I > >think Tony Hoagland does like to push buttons, >but it is hard to see that he does so except in a spirit of wanting to open > >dialogue, to raise, as it were (apologies in >advance to Bob who I know does not like this in >poetry), questions of social and political content.... > >Sheila > > >---------- >From: robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 19:45:15 -0500 >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent > > >(Actually, given the social, political, >linguistic and class weighting that Matthew >Arnold, consciously or not, packed into the term >"Philistine" when he first applied it in this >context in the nineteenth century, one can at >least admire Bob for his consistency. R.) > > >I'm sorry. Were you trying to say something here? > > Yup. > >R. > > >Aah, he's just another one of them commies, Al--you can ignore him. > >--Bob > >Actually, Bob, I think of my spiritual political >home as the old ILP, and that vanished into the >maw of larger Labour Party in the UK in the >twenties. So I've been homeless ever since. > >R. for the anarcho-syndicalists. > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Feb 13 23:44:30 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 23:44:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] again Re: Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: References: <665197501-1297645717-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-630136710-@bda2910.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <1037897703.965241.1297650225280.JavaMail.root@sz0105a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: You're also assuming unanimity, which comes close to stereotyping--that all black people would feel offended by anything that one black person would find offensive. I suppose one should take a vote before saying anything about anything. Do you remember the controversy a couple of years ago about the word "niggardly?" Some black people found the word offensive, assuming it referred to them. Not that blacks are generally stereotyped as stingy. That would be Robin's tribe. Other black folks thought the whole thing pretty embarrassing. Best, Mark At 11:17 PM 2/13/2011, you wrote: >Which makes it hard to dramatize a racial stereotype. > >This is I think a bigger issue for us as writers >than a third rate argument about a second rate >poem, regardless of the intentions of the poet. >It's about how much of what we think and feel, >or think those around us think and feel, is to >remain unmentionable. I'm not big on censorship. Even self-censorship. > >Best, > >Mark > >At 09:23 PM 2/13/2011, you wrote: >>I've restrained myself-- I'm new on the list. >>But suffice it to say my heart is pounding & I >>must finally say something. If you're gay, & >>someone says or writes something homophobic, >>you know it & it hurts. You don't need a panel >>of poets to analyze & pass judgment. & if >>you're Jewish... I think you get the picture. I >>happen to be white-- give it up already. When a >>person of color is offended by racist stereotypes it is EXACTLY THAT. >> >> >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: almaginnes at aol.com >>To: "NewPoetry List" >>Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2011 8:08:37 PM >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent >> >>Does no one agree that it's a bad poem? >>Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: sheila black >>Sender: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 01:03:56 >>To: >>Reply-To: NewPoetry List >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > >New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. >$16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm > > >"What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a >lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the >poet alive in every sense of the word, and >through every one of his senses. Instead of >missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are >like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets >left out, the more they seem to contain One can >hear echoes from all the various >ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its >core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the >fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a >pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not >only into a mind, but a person, a personality, >this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." > >M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. >http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bircumplus at yahoo.co.uk Mon Feb 14 05:09:39 2011 From: bircumplus at yahoo.co.uk (David Bircumshaw) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 10:09:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: <51794757F08A471D89AA399B8035AF70@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <939591.98239.qm@web28508.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> "Actually,?Bob, I think of my spiritual political home as the old ILP, and that vanished into the maw of larger Labour Party in the UK in the twenties.? So I've been homeless ever since. ? R. for the anarcho-syndicalists." Ah, the ILP. Sigh. I'll vote for that. David Bircumshaw "Hell is other poets" Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com --- On Mon, 14/2/11, Robin Hamilton wrote: From: Robin Hamilton Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Monday, 14 February, 2011, 0:45 ? (Actually, given the social, political, linguistic?and class weighting that Matthew Arnold, consciously or not,?packed into the term "Philistine" when he first applied it in this context in the nineteenth century, one can at least admire Bob for his consistency.? R.) I'm sorry. Were you trying to say something here? ? ??? ??? ??? Yup. ? R. Aah, he's just another one of them commies, Al--you can ignore him. --Bob Actually,?Bob, I think of my spiritual political home as the old ILP, and that vanished into the maw of larger Labour Party in the UK in the twenties.? So I've been homeless ever since. ? R. for the anarcho-syndicalists. -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Mon Feb 14 06:14:45 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 11:14:45 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] again Re: Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: References: <665197501-1297645717-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-630136710-@bda2910.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>, <1037897703.965241.1297650225280.JavaMail.root@sz0105a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net>, , Message-ID: I want to chime in that I agree with Mark. Well put. Sheila Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 23:44:30 -0500 To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu From: junction at earthlink.net Subject: [New-Poetry] again Re: Hoagland's Dangerous Intent You're also assuming unanimity, which comes close to stereotyping--that all black people would feel offended by anything that one black person would find offensive. I suppose one should take a vote before saying anything about anything. Do you remember the controversy a couple of years ago about the word "niggardly?" Some black people found the word offensive, assuming it referred to them. Not that blacks are generally stereotyped as stingy. That would be Robin's tribe. Other black folks thought the whole thing pretty embarrassing. Best, Mark At 11:17 PM 2/13/2011, you wrote: Which makes it hard to dramatize a racial stereotype. This is I think a bigger issue for us as writers than a third rate argument about a second rate poem, regardless of the intentions of the poet. It's about how much of what we think and feel, or think those around us think and feel, is to remain unmentionable. I'm not big on censorship. Even self-censorship. Best, Mark At 09:23 PM 2/13/2011, you wrote: I've restrained myself-- I'm new on the list. But suffice it to say my heart is pounding & I must finally say something. If you're gay, & someone says or writes something homophobic, you know it & it hurts. You don't need a panel of poets to analyze & pass judgment. & if you're Jewish... I think you get the picture. I happen to be white-- give it up already. When a person of color is offended by racist stereotypes it is EXACTLY THAT. ----- Original Message ----- From: almaginnes at aol.com To: "NewPoetry List" Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2011 8:08:37 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent Does no one agree that it's a bad poem? Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: sheila black Sender: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 01:03:56 To: Reply-To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain? One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody?[it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain? One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody?[it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cvoisine at nmsu.edu Mon Feb 14 10:51:33 2011 From: cvoisine at nmsu.edu (Connie Voisine) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 08:51:33 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] again Re: Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: References: <665197501-1297645717-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-630136710-@bda2910.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <1037897703.965241.1297650225280.JavaMail.root@sz0105a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: a wise friend of mine recently said something to the effect of-- communication is hard; this conversation (Rankine's "with" Hoagland) is perhaps past the point of being useful, and has entered the terrain of the hurtful. The tension needs to be lowered for communication to return. c On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 4:14 AM, sheila black wrote: > I want to chime in that I agree with Mark.? Well put. > > Sheila > > ________________________________ > Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 23:44:30 -0500 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > From: junction at earthlink.net > Subject: [New-Poetry] again Re: Hoagland's Dangerous Intent > > You're also assuming unanimity, which comes close to stereotyping--that all > black people would feel offended by anything that one black person would > find offensive. I suppose one should take a vote before saying anything > about anything. > > Do you remember the controversy a couple of years ago about the word > "niggardly?" Some black people found the word offensive, assuming it > referred to them. Not that blacks are generally stereotyped as stingy. That > would be Robin's tribe. Other black folks thought the whole thing pretty > embarrassing. > > Best, > > Mark > > At 11:17 PM 2/13/2011, you wrote: > > Which makes it hard to dramatize a racial stereotype. > > This is I think a bigger issue for us as writers than a third rate argument > about a second rate poem, regardless of the intentions of the poet. It's > about how much of what we think and feel, or think those around us think and > feel, is to remain unmentionable. I'm not big on censorship. Even > self-censorship. > > Best, > > Mark > > At 09:23 PM 2/13/2011, you wrote: > > I've restrained myself-- I'm new on the list. But suffice it to say my heart > is pounding & I must finally say something. If you're gay, & someone says or > writes something homophobic, you know it & it hurts. You don't need a panel > of poets to analyze & pass judgment. & if you're Jewish... I think you get > the picture. I happen to be white-- give it up already. When a person of > color is offended by racist stereotypes? it? is EXACTLY THAT. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: almaginnes at aol.com > To: "NewPoetry List" > Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2011 8:08:37 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent > > Does no one agree that it's a bad poem? > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: sheila black > Sender: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 01:03:56 > To: > Reply-To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. > $16.? Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm > > > "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of > particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through > every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? > fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the > more they seem to contain? One can hear echoes from all the various > ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. > His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical > threnody?[it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a > personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." > > M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. > http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. > $16.? Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm > > > "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of > particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through > every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? > fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the > more they seem to contain? One can hear echoes from all the various > ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. > His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical > threnody?[it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a > personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." > > M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. > http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Connie Voisine Associate Professor of English New Mexico State University cvoisine at nmsu.edu 575-646-2027 From tomkostro at sprintmail.com Mon Feb 14 13:33:48 2011 From: tomkostro at sprintmail.com (Tom Kostro) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 13:33:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] WRITING WOMEN: New Workshop begins at Barnard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6FA86D33-52D5-4200-9E68-A10E6FB4D4AA@sprintmail.com> Dear Poets and Writers, Give yourself a VALENTINE's GIFT. Get the love of writing juices going! Space available in our loving and challenging workshop: SEEKING YOUR VOICE at BARNARD COLLEGE CENTER FOR RESEARCH ON WOMEN: Dear Returning and NEW Poets, Our new adventure begins! Our first session of Seeking Your Voice meets on Wednesday, February 16, at Barnard Center for Research on Women, from 7 to 9 PM, in Room 101 Barnard Hall. We will start with the celebrated, award-winning contemporary Irish poet Eavan Boland, during the first half hour of class. Hailed as a ?feminist reviser of history,? Boland writes of the loss and recovering of her own native voice as a young immigrant ?outsider? in post-World War II Britain. (In addition to her many books of poetry, Boland has written prose about memory, stories and The Making of a Poem with Mark Strand.) In later sessions we?ll look at the poems of e. e. cummings and Grace Paley. Here is the schedule and books we?ll be reading: February 16 and March 2: Outside History (1990) by Eavan Boland March 16 & 30 Selected Poems (2007) by e.e. cummings April 13 & 27 Begin Again: Collected Poems (1985) by Grace Paley Each book is available in paperback from Amazon.com for $10 to $13. Your own writing, of course, is the center of our workshop. Please remember to bring a poem or short-short prose piece (still in process preferred) to our first meeting. Looking forward to a new adventure in writing, Patricia Brody MS, MA, CCNY Eva Miodownik Oppenheim MA patriciannb13 at gmail.com evaoppen at aol.com -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Mon Feb 14 13:55:14 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 13:55:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Two sentiments for Valentine's Message-ID: <8CD9A8FD94A3FAD-1E80-3B9A@webmail-d021.sysops.aol.com> http://ursprache.blogspot.com/2011/02/valentine_14.html -- Poets are the only people to whom love is not only a crucial, but an indispensable experience; which entitles them to mistake it for a universal one. ?Hannah Arendt, "Action," ch. 33 (footnote), The Human Condition (1958) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com Mon Feb 14 14:12:11 2011 From: robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 14:12:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: References: <7BD15054-065A-4B7A-98F6-B3F6DD662365@verizon.net><8CD993AA2A644C2-758-ED48@Webmail-d106.sysops.aol.com><4D57C069.2030008@nut-n-but.net><8CD99C16E55DFFE-1D28-103D7@Webmail-d118.sysops.aol.com><9A65C6EEE69B488CAFBC38AC9511D919@RobinLaptopPC>, , <4D583E6D.7020906@nut-n-but.net>, , <51794757F08A471D89AA399B8035AF70@RobinLaptopPC>, , <1DCB1B8F7EA247E9B6C934B1C2E66522@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <397FAFE6C730430FB451C6EAA4430FE3@RobinLaptopPC> Hey, Sheila, Millport was a pretty upmarket wee place! I visited it a couple of times on a seaside holiday, when I was younger. Here's my ILP poem (political, so Bob can sneer at it), which mentions Willie Gallagher -- given the current climate, I should perhaps stress that it's what seems to be supposed to be called a Persona poem these days. I'm not, nor ever have I been (at least yet) a Glasgow docker in his eighties remembering his youth. Robin -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- AN IRREVERENT MEMORIAL TO THE RED CLYDE FOUR (for Larry Weiss) Thir wir giants on earth in them days, so thir wir, Great huge men like McLean, who cud lift A dockers' strike in wan han, thi other Cho'in a capitalist. Or wee Jimmy Maxton, him Who wis a teacher, screivin his biography u Lenin. Gallagher wis no bad either, hoddin a commie seat Way intae the fifties. But ma favourite wis Kirkwood: See his autobiography -- photae a him gettin his heid bustid By the polis in George Square, an the introduction Written by Winston Churchill. Magic! Way tae go. ROBIN HAMILTON -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----- Original Message ----- From: sheila black To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2011 9:55 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent Oh, how funny--my mother is from Glasgow. Actually, she grew up in Millport in the Firth of Clyde because her Dad died in World War 11--volunteered in '38 and died in like '42--and he had been a doctor, but after there was no money so they lived in the vacation home of some relative or other. But they were all the old labor--and now my aunts--getting on now--are still all ardent Scots Nats! Willie Gallagher--now there's another name that brings back memories of family chatter... You and Noam Chomsky--good company! Sheila -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Feb 14 14:50:04 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 14:50:04 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent Message-ID: In a message dated 2/14/2011 1:39:14 PM Central Standard Time, robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com writes: > > Hey, Sheila, Millport was a pretty upmarket wee place! I visited it a > couple of times on a seaside holiday, when I was younger. > > Here's my ILP poem (political, so Bob can sneer at it), which mentions > Willie Gallagher -- given the current climate, I should perhaps stress that > it's what seems to be supposed to be called a Persona poem these days. > I'm not, nor ever have I been (at least yet) a Glasgow docker in his > eighties remembering his youth. > > Robin > > > > AN IRREVERENT MEMORIAL TO THE RED CLYDE FOUR > > > > (for Larry Weiss) > > > > > > > Thir wir giants on earth in them days, so thir wir, > Great huge men like McLean, who cud lift > A dockers' strike in wan han, thi other > Cho'in a capitalist. > > > > Or wee Jimmy Maxton, him > Who wisa teacher, screivin his biography u Lenin. > > Gallagher wis no bad either, hoddin a commie seat > Way intae the fifties. > > > > But ma favourite wis Kirkwood: > See his autobiography -- photae a him gettin his heid bustid > By the polis in George Square, an the introduction > Written by Winston Churchill. Magic! Way tae go. > > > > > > ROBIN HAMILTON > > > > > Robin, I didn't read your poem, but it's not any good. Sam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Feb 14 14:52:20 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 20:52:20 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Two sentiments for Valentine's In-Reply-To: <8CD9A8FD94A3FAD-1E80-3B9A@webmail-d021.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD9A8FD94A3FAD-1E80-3B9A@webmail-d021.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Poets are entitled to mistake much more, what else can you do, eliminate them? On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 7:55 PM, wrote: > http://ursprache.blogspot.com/2011/02/valentine_14.html > > -- > > Poets are the only people to whom love is not only a crucial, but an > indispensable experience; which entitles them to mistake it for a universal > one. > ?Hannah Arendt, "Action," ch. 33 (footnote), The Human Condition (1958) > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Feb 14 15:31:51 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 21:31:51 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Do you like soup? Message-ID: If you do, here's a l o t of them: http://jamarattigan.livejournal.com/509232.html -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Feb 14 15:35:33 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 21:35:33 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It's written in Ostrogothic_ > > > > Robin, I didn't read your poem, but it's not any good. > > Sam > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Mon Feb 14 15:48:06 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 20:48:06 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: <397FAFE6C730430FB451C6EAA4430FE3@RobinLaptopPC> References: <7BD15054-065A-4B7A-98F6-B3F6DD662365@verizon.net><8CD993AA2A644C2-758-ED48@Webmail-d106.sysops.aol.com><4D57C069.2030008@nut-n-but.net><8CD99C16E55DFFE-1D28-103D7@Webmail-d118.sysops.aol.com><9A65C6EEE69B488CAFBC38AC9511D919@RobinLaptopPC>, , , <4D583E6D.7020906@nut-n-but.net>, , , <51794757F08A471D89AA399B8035AF70@RobinLaptopPC>, , , , <1DCB1B8F7EA247E9B6C934B1C2E66522@RobinLaptopPC>, , <397FAFE6C730430FB451C6EAA4430FE3@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: My mum would love to hear you say that. She always says "We weren't poor (pronounced pur) Millport was a verrry nice resort. Verrry upmarket." So she'd be thrilled. My mum also says things like, "Och him! He's a pure (pronounced pur) waste of space," which is, perhaps, my favorite insult ever. But I love the poem--would still love secretly to be "hoddin a Commie seat." Do you go to Glasgow often?--I was there last year, and my aunt gave me the tour of ALL the Rennie Mackintosh sites (which really are AMAZINGLY wonderful), not to mention Billy Connolly's Banana Boots at the People's Museum--ooops Palace--along with a lovely unstoppable ten-hour running monologue of how much more radical Scottish artists of the MacKintosh period were (still are) than any of their southern counterparts "I mean ye can certainly see why the FFFFrench love us so much!" And I can't do the Scot's sounding out spelling as well as you can, though I know how to say in proper Glaswegian "oh, you tookie hen, ya" Sheila From: robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 14:12:11 -0500 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent Hey, Sheila, Millport was a pretty upmarket wee place! I visited it a couple of times on a seaside holiday, when I was younger. Here's my ILP poem (political, so Bob can sneer at it), which mentions Willie Gallagher -- given the current climate, I should perhaps stress that it's what seems to be supposed to be called a Persona poem these days. I'm not, nor ever have I been (at least yet) a Glasgow docker in his eighties remembering his youth. Robin AN IRREVERENT MEMORIAL TO THE RED CLYDE FOUR (for Larry Weiss) Thir wir giants on earth in them days, so thir wir, Great huge men like McLean, who cud lift A dockers' strike in wan han, thi other Cho'in a capitalist. Or wee Jimmy Maxton, him Who wis a teacher, screivin his biography u Lenin. Gallagher wis no bad either, hoddin a commie seat Way intae the fifties. But ma favourite wis Kirkwood: See his autobiography -- photae a him gettin his heid bustid By the polis in George Square, an the introduction Written by Winston Churchill. Magic! Way tae go. ROBIN HAMILTON ----- Original Message ----- From: sheila black To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2011 9:55 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent Oh, how funny--my mother is from Glasgow. Actually, she grew up in Millport in the Firth of Clyde because her Dad died in World War 11--volunteered in '38 and died in like '42--and he had been a doctor, but after there was no money so they lived in the vacation home of some relative or other. But they were all the old labor--and now my aunts--getting on now--are still all ardent Scots Nats! Willie Gallagher--now there's another name that brings back memories of family chatter... You and Noam Chomsky--good company! Sheila _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Mon Feb 14 16:00:10 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 15:00:10 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: The Hamilton Stone Review #23 is now up! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Please announce to friends, family, business associates, and strangers on the street: http://www.hamiltonstone.org/hsr.html or http://www.hamiltonstone.org/hsr23.html. MSW -- *Meredith Sue Willis* http://www.meredithsuewillis.com New Book: OUT OF THE MOUNTAINS: Appalachian Stories. Visit http://www.ohioswallow.com/book/Out+of+the+Mountains -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Mon Feb 14 16:20:08 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 16:20:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Montale molto Message-ID: <8CD9AA4173DD942-18BC-1568@webmail-m096.sysops.aol.com> http://www.iicnewyork.esteri.it/IIC_NewYork/webform/SchedaEvento.aspx?id=498 A great master of Italian poetry, the Nobel laureate Eugenio Montale is truly a poet of universal standing. His use of language is rooted in the Italian tradition yet imbued with European and American influences. Both modern and profound, it expresses in an astonishingly rich and diverse texture the condition of modernity, oscillating between life and death, and expressing both anguish and compassion. On February 15th, selected poems by Montale will be read by distinguished poets and literary critics. On February 16th, an International Conference, with panelists from Italy and the US will focus on the lasting influence of Montale on Italian and American poetry. Tuesday, 15 February 6:00 pm, Reading Massimiliano Finazzer Flory, Commissioner for Culture of the City of Milan Jonathan Galassi, President and Publisher, Farrar, Straus and Giroux Rosanna Warren, RAAR?01, Emma McLachlan Metcalf Professor of the Humanities, Boston University Charles Wright, Souder Family Professor of English, University of Virginia Wednesday, 16 February 10:00 am ? 5:30 pm, Conference Stefano Albertini, Director, Casa Italiana Zerilli-Marimo? Gian Luigi Beccaria, Professor of the History of the Italian Language, University of Turin Giuseppe Conte, Writer Giorgio Ficara, Professor of Italian Literature, University of Turin Fabio Finotti, Mariano DiVito Professor of Italian Studies; Graduate Chair, Italian; Director, Center for Italian Studies; Chair, Italian Section; Director, Penn in Florence, University of Pennsylvania Anthony J. Tamburri, Dean of the John D. Calandra Italian American Institute of Queens College/CUNY and Professor of Italian & Italian American Studies Rebecca West, FAAR?79, William R. Kenan, Jr. Distinguished Service Professor, University of Chicago With the support of Alitalia / -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Mon Feb 14 16:34:43 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 16:34:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] love that valise where toucans sleep Message-ID: <8CD9AA6208A3B02-1E8C-2BA@webmail-d142.sysops.aol.com> Without Definition love that ocean for mad antelope love that eye nailing my eye on a star too drunk love that valise where toucans sleep that look like us love that sun that protests at being in exile under its own knees love oblivion and the famished words gnawing that tangerine our memory Alain Bosquet (translated from the French by Wallace Fowlie) Selected Poems by Alain Bosquest (Ohio U. Press, 1972) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 14 16:57:45 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 16:57:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: <397FAFE6C730430FB451C6EAA4430FE3@RobinLaptopPC> References: <7BD15054-065A-4B7A-98F6-B3F6DD662365@verizon.net><8CD993AA2A6 44C2-758-ED48@Webmail-d106.sysops.aol.com><4D57C069.2030008@nut-n-but.net><8CD9 9C16E55DFFE-1D28-103D7@Webmail-d118.sysops.aol.com><9A65C6EEE69B488CAFBC38AC9511D919@RobinLaptopPC>, , <4D583E6D.7020906@nut-n-but.net>, , <51794757F08A471D89AA399B8035AF70@RobinLaptopPC>, , <1DCB1B8F7EA247E9B6C934B1C2E66522@RobinLaptopPC> <397FAFE6C730430FB451C6EAA4430FE3@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4D59A559.4030807@nut-n-but.net> On 2/14/2011 2:12 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > Hey, Sheila, Millport was a pretty upmarket wee place! I visited it a > couple of times on a seaside holiday, when I was younger. > Here's my ILP poem (political, so Bob can sneer at it), which mentions > Willie Gallagher -- given the current climate, I should perhaps stress > that it's what seems to be supposed to be called a Persona poem these > days. I'm not, nor ever have I been (at least yet) a Glasgow > docker in his eighties remembering his youth. > Robin . Fun poem, and not in my view political, but a character study. Of course, I'm not too big on character studies, either. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 14 17:05:34 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 17:05:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D59A72E.2000800@nut-n-but.net> > Robin, I didn't read your poem, but it's not any good. > > Sam I did read part of the Hoagland poem, but, Sam, can you truly tell us that there aren't poems you can say are bad without reading them? Or even reading about them? And what about all those editors who claim that they can tell whether a manuscript of poems is any good or not halfway through the first page, or--if they're really conscientious--by the fifth poem? --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Feb 14 17:37:51 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 17:37:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: <4D59A72E.2000800@nut-n-but.net> References: <4D59A72E.2000800@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: It's more to keep from drowning, Bob. I'm often done by the third line, rarely read more than the first and last poem. With the best will in the world I couldn't do more. Mark At 05:05 PM 2/14/2011, you wrote: >>Robin, I didn't read your poem, but it's not any good. >> >>Sam > I did read part of the Hoagland poem, but, > Sam, can you truly tell us that there aren't > poems you can say are bad without reading > them? Or even reading about them? And what > about all those editors who claim that they can > tell whether a manuscript of poems is any good > or not halfway through the first page, or--if > they're really conscientious--by the fifth poem? > >--Bob >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Mon Feb 14 18:28:11 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 15:28:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Love it or not - Eileen Myles on VIDA's Count Message-ID: <557857.1178.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> http://www.theawl.com/2011/02/being-female#more-71928 ? ********* VIDA: ?Women in Literary Arts +?Interviews Amy's Alias +?http://amyking.org/? ******** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 14 18:57:39 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 18:57:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: References: <4D59A72E.2000800@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4D59C173.6030606@nut-n-but.net> On 2/14/2011 5:37 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > It's more to keep from drowning, Bob. I'm often done by the third > line, rarely read more than the first and last poem. With the best > will in the world I couldn't do more. > > Mark That's why I try to keep my poems down to two lines, Mark. As a publisher, I was pretty conscientious most of the time, but it was easy because my press was so marginal, I didn't get that many submissions. Still, I rarely read a whole manuscript before accepting or rejecting it. But I can't understand the idea that you necessarily have to read a work or even part of it to know whether it's any good or not considering that you could know the author's previous work, you could have heard about it from someone whose judgement you trusted, you could know the author's publication credits, awards won, and favorite beverage. . . --Bob From cervantes.james at gmail.com Mon Feb 14 19:13:03 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 17:13:03 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] love that valise where toucans sleep In-Reply-To: <8CD9AA6208A3B02-1E8C-2BA@webmail-d142.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD9AA6208A3B02-1E8C-2BA@webmail-d142.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: "love that valise where toucans sleep" is enough for me. - Jim On Mon, Feb 14, 2011 at 2:34 PM, wrote: > Without Definition > > > love > that ocean for mad antelope > love > that eye nailing my eye > on a star too drunk > love > that valise where toucans sleep > that look like us > love > that sun that protests > at being in exile under its own knees > love oblivion > and the famished words > gnawing that tangerine > our memory > > > Alain Bosquet > (translated from the French by Wallace Fowlie) > Selected Poems by Alain Bosquest (Ohio U. Press, 1972) > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Feb 14 19:44:24 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 19:44:24 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] love that valise where toucans sleep Message-ID: <76455.50a359a0.3a8b2668@cs.com> In a message dated 2/14/2011 3:35:08 PM Central Standard Time, jforjames at aol.com writes: > > Without Definition > > > love > that ocean for mad antelope > love > that eye nailing my eye > on a star too drunk > love > that valise where toucans sleep > that look like us > love > that sun that protests > at being in exile under its own knees > love oblivion > and the famished words > gnawing that tangerine > our memory > > > Alain Bosquet > (translated from the French by Wallace Fowlie) > Selected Poems by Alain Bosquest (Ohio U. Press, 1972) > Ah, the tangerine of my memory! Mostly associated with Christmas stockings. But why did I also get those inedible Brazil nuts and nasty chocolate drops? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Feb 14 19:48:36 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 19:48:36 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent Message-ID: <768ac.6fa1a555.3a8b2764@cs.com> In a message dated 2/14/2011 3:58:52 PM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > I did read part of the Hoagland poem, but, Sam, can you truly tell us > that there aren't poems you can say are bad without reading them? Or even > reading about them? And what about all those editors who claim that they can > tell whether a manuscript of poems is any good or not halfway through the > first page, or--if they're really conscientious--by the fifth poem? > > --Bob I don't need to eat the whole apple to find out it's rotten, Bob, but that mainly applies to books, which I can sample without poisoning myself. Still, I'd feel bad if I pronounced a short poem bad if I hadn't read all of it, though there have certainly been plenty I didn't finish when I got to one insufferable line. Of these I would say: DNF. By the way, why do you think that this post applies to you? Sam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Feb 14 19:57:21 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 19:57:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: <4D59C173.6030606@nut-n-but.net> References: <4D59A72E.2000800@nut-n-but.net> <4D59C173.6030606@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: One always hopes for a breakthrough--redemption does happen on occasion. At 06:57 PM 2/14/2011, you wrote: >On 2/14/2011 5:37 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: >>It's more to keep from drowning, Bob. I'm often >>done by the third line, rarely read more than >>the first and last poem. With the best will in the world I couldn't do more. >> >>Mark > >That's why I try to keep my poems down to two >lines, Mark. As a publisher, I was pretty >conscientious most of the time, but it was easy >because my press was so marginal, I didn't get that many submissions. >Still, I rarely read a whole manuscript before accepting or rejecting it. > >But I can't understand the idea that you >necessarily have to read a work or even part of >it to know whether it's any good or not >considering that you could know the author's >previous work, you could have heard about it >from someone whose judgement you trusted, you >could know the author's publication credits, >awards won, and favorite beverage. . . > >--Bob >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Feb 14 19:59:00 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 19:59:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] love that valise where toucans sleep In-Reply-To: <76455.50a359a0.3a8b2668@cs.com> References: <76455.50a359a0.3a8b2668@cs.com> Message-ID: Can I have the brasil nuts? At 07:44 PM 2/14/2011, you wrote: >In a message dated 2/14/2011 3:35:08 PM Central >Standard Time, jforjames at aol.com writes: >> >>Without Definition >> >> >>love >>that ocean for mad antelope >>love >>that eye nailing my eye >>on a star too drunk >>love >>that valise where toucans sleep >>that look like us >>love >>that sun that protests >>at being in exile under its own knees >>love oblivion >>and the famished words >>gnawing that tangerine >>our memory >> >> >>Alain Bosquet >>(translated from the French by Wallace Fowlie) >>Selected Poems by Alain Bosquest (Ohio U. Press, 1972) > >Ah, the tangerine of my memory! Mostly >associated with Christmas stockings. But why >did I also get those inedible Brazil nuts and nasty chocolate drops? >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 14 21:01:09 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 21:01:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: <768ac.6fa1a555.3a8b2764@cs.com> References: <768ac.6fa1a555.3a8b2764@cs.com> Message-ID: <4D59DE65.2000704@nut-n-but.net> On 2/14/2011 7:48 PM, Rsgwynn1 at cs.com wrote: > In a message dated 2/14/2011 3:58:52 PM Central Standard Time, > bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: >> I did read part of the Hoagland poem, but, Sam, can you truly tell us >> that there aren't poems you can say are bad without reading them? Or >> even reading about them? And what about all those editors who claim >> that they can tell whether a manuscript of poems is any good or not >> halfway through the first page, or--if they're really >> conscientious--by the fifth poem? >> >> --Bob > > > I don't need to eat the whole apple to find out it's rotten, Bob, but > that mainly applies to books, which I can sample without poisoning > myself. Still, I'd feel bad if I pronounced a short poem bad if I > hadn't read all of it, though there have certainly been plenty I > didn't finish when I got to one insufferable line. Of these I would > say: DNF. > > By the way, why do you think that this post applies to you? > > Sam Aren't I famous for making pronouncements on material I haven't read, Sam? But in this case, I thought I'd announced I hadn't read the Hoagland poem when i gave my negative judgement of it. Actually, I didn't have anything much against the four lines I had read but was going by what others said about it, and my knowledge of Hoagland's poetry (which isn't much)--and my bias against political poems. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Mon Feb 14 20:57:51 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 01:57:51 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Love it or not - Eileen Myles on VIDA's Count In-Reply-To: <557857.1178.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <557857.1178.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have to say Eileen is so right on. I am just a head over heels fan at this moment! Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 15:28:11 -0800 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com To: POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU; new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu; pussipo at googlegroups.com Subject: [New-Poetry] Love it or not - Eileen Myles on VIDA's Count http://www.theawl.com/2011/02/being-female#more-71928 ********* VIDA: Women in Literary Arts + Interviews Amy's Alias + http://amyking.org/ ******** _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 00:39:47 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 06:39:47 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: <4D59C173.6030606@nut-n-but.net> References: <4D59A72E.2000800@nut-n-but.net> <4D59C173.6030606@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: I read every single poem on the Corner. On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 12:57 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > On 2/14/2011 5:37 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> It's more to keep from drowning, Bob. I'm often done by the third line, >> rarely read more than the first and last poem. With the best will in the >> world I couldn't do more. >> >> Mark >> > > That's why I try to keep my poems down to two lines, Mark. As a publisher, > I was pretty conscientious most of the time, but it was easy because my > press was so marginal, I didn't get that many submissions. Still, I rarely > read a whole manuscript before accepting or rejecting it. > > But I can't understand the idea that you necessarily have to read a work or > even part of it to know whether it's any good or not considering that you > could know the author's previous work, you could have heard about it from > someone whose judgement you trusted, you could know the author's publication > credits, awards won, and favorite beverage. . . > > > --Bob > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 02:34:40 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 08:34:40 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Love it or not - Eileen Myles on VIDA's Count In-Reply-To: References: <557857.1178.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Amy, our Eileen is right, but she leaves out much. I am referring to Pasolini. It is true that he had a mother that prayed day and night for him, she was an extremely pious woman, but he was also the son of a lieutenant - in the Italy of those days it had quite a weight, and besides this, he was killed the way he was - but that was another Italy that murdered him. He had one good friend, Giuseppe Zigaina since when he was a child in Casarsa. I met Zigaina. Pasolini, before his death was under a terrifying pressure and slept with a scarf tied around his head. Zigaina says that Pasolini had seen his death, which he described in his poetry, and many are the passages that depict it. Ask Zigaina, and he will quote them to you - if not by heart, almost. Pasolini is an exemplary figure for his accomplishments and for the courage he had in fighting against the big monsters that in those years equally shared the big pie of Italy. Now there are little monsters, they are all in the same bathtub and in common they have "l'omerta'" - the conspiracy of silence, I clean your hand and you clean mine. Berlusconi is the big fat scapegoat, but don't worry, his prototype is well rooted here and projected ad infinitum. On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 2:57 AM, sheila black wrote: > I have to say Eileen is so right on. I am just a head over heels fan at > this moment! > > ------------------------------ > Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 15:28:11 -0800 > From: amyhappens at yahoo.com > To: POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU; new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu; > pussipo at googlegroups.com > Subject: [New-Poetry] Love it or not - Eileen Myles on VIDA's Count > > > http://www.theawl.com/2011/02/being-female#more-71928 > > > ********* > VIDA: Women in Literary Arts > + Interviews > > Amy's Alias > + http://amyking.org/ > ******** > > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Feb 15 06:31:14 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 06:31:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: References: <4D59A72E.2000800@nut-n-but.net><4D59C173.6030606@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4D5A6402.9020506@nut-n-but.net> On 2/15/2011 12:39 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > I read every single poem on the Corner. . Aw, that's only because only the best people send work to the . . ./Corner/. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Feb 15 07:27:47 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 07:27:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Character-Study Poems In-Reply-To: References: <4D59A72E.2000800@nut-n-but.net><4D59C173.6030606@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4D5A7143.7010803@nut-n-but.net> Actually, I have nothing against character-study poems. Every poem is a character study of something. I think the poems I dislike the most are the ones saying what the poet ardently believe. Philistines like or dislike poems on the basis of how much they agree or disagree with the point of view expressed in them (which a poem can't avoid having). Aesthetes like me like or dislike them on the basis of how aesthetically effective they are (and some /do /manage to avoid all aesthetic expression). --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.weinstock at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 08:09:06 2011 From: david.weinstock at gmail.com (David Weinstock) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 08:09:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Character-Study Poems In-Reply-To: <4D5A7143.7010803@nut-n-but.net> References: <4D59A72E.2000800@nut-n-but.net> <4D59C173.6030606@nut-n-but.net> <4D5A7143.7010803@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: *All bad poetry springs from genuine feeling. To be natural is to be obvious, and to be obvious is to be inartistic*. -- Oscar Wilde Oscar would say anything for a laugh; he's not a reliable source of truth. He was a literate comedian, the Stephen Wright or Rita Rudner of his day. But I admire Bob Grumman for promoting a higher standard of rationality, so I must disagree. Bob, are you saying that a Philistine should be despised for taking the content of a poem seriously, while an aesthete is someone who must ignore all content, valuing only skillful execution? I think this is, first of all, a libel upon Philistines, who should not be criticized for ever taking seriously the claim of a poem to actually be *about *something that matters. Even if all bad poetry were sincere (which seems statistically improbable but no matter), it does not follow that all sincere poetry is bad. I believe that is called asserting the contrapositive. I think your observation also slanders aesthetes, because it says that they (we) are mere fanciers of the prettily executed, without an idea or opinion in their (our) heads. I myself have several ideas in my head, and where I have several, Bob has several thousand, and most of them ask to be grappled with seriously. Does that mean he is writing for Philistines? Would his ideas be less valuable if he expressed them accurately in poems? I believe that a good poem must not be entirely empty of content. I believe that a poet who aspires to be free of the demands of having subject matter and speaking some kind of truth is wasting his ink and my time. And I believe that a critic who claims to be content-neutral is kidding himself. The above is a manifesto, or perhaps it is a character study. I invite your thoughts. --David Weinstock -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 08:15:26 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 14:15:26 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: <4D5A6402.9020506@nut-n-but.net> References: <4D59A72E.2000800@nut-n-but.net> <4D59C173.6030606@nut-n-but.net> <4D5A6402.9020506@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: I was always sent to the ... *Corner*, now that you make me think of it. Guess why. Because at kindergarten I was not able to sleep after lunch. On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > On 2/15/2011 12:39 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > I read every single poem on the Corner. > > . > Aw, that's only because only the best people send work to the . . .*Corner > *. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 10:17:08 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 16:17:08 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Character-Study Poems In-Reply-To: References: <4D59A72E.2000800@nut-n-but.net> <4D59C173.6030606@nut-n-but.net> <4D5A7143.7010803@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Everything is very fine, except for the following: I myself have several ideas in my head, and where I have several, Bob has several thousand, and most of them ask to be grappled with seriously. I'd say: If I have one idea in my head, Bob has several thousand opposite hints to contradict it. [He is a volcano, no doubt, of the rarest species] On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 2:09 PM, David Weinstock wrote: > *All bad poetry springs from genuine feeling. To be natural is to be > obvious, and to be obvious is to be inartistic*. -- Oscar Wilde > > Oscar would say anything for a laugh; he's not a reliable source of truth. > He was a literate comedian, the Stephen Wright or Rita Rudner of his day. > But I admire Bob Grumman for promoting a higher standard of rationality, so > I must disagree. > > Bob, are you saying that a Philistine should be despised for taking the > content of a poem seriously, while an aesthete is someone who must ignore > all content, valuing only skillful execution? > > I think this is, first of all, a libel upon Philistines, who should not be > criticized for ever taking seriously the claim of a poem to actually be *about > *something that matters. Even if all bad poetry were sincere (which seems > statistically improbable but no matter), it does not follow that all sincere > poetry is bad. I believe that is called asserting the contrapositive. > > I think your observation also slanders aesthetes, because it says that they > (we) are mere fanciers of the prettily executed, without an idea or opinion > in their (our) heads. I myself have several ideas in my head, and where I > have several, Bob has several thousand, and most of them ask to be grappled > with seriously. Does that mean he is writing for Philistines? Would his > ideas be less valuable if he expressed them accurately in poems? > > I believe that a good poem must not be entirely empty of content. I believe > that a poet who aspires to be free of the demands of having subject matter > and speaking some kind of truth is wasting his ink and my time. And I > believe that a critic who claims to be content-neutral is kidding himself. > > The above is a manifesto, or perhaps it is a character study. I invite your > thoughts. > > --David Weinstock > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Tue Feb 15 10:18:01 2011 From: tad at opus40.org (Tad Richards) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 10:18:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: References: <4D59A72E.2000800@nut-n-but.net> <4D59C173.6030606@nut-n-but.net> <4D5A6402.9020506@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: I love Robin's poem. And I even read it. Mark -- isn't self-censorship, of one sort or another, part of everything we do as writers? On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 8:15 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > I was always sent to the ... *Corner*, now that you make me think of it. > Guess why. Because at kindergarten I was not able to sleep after lunch. > > On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> On 2/15/2011 12:39 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: >> >> I read every single poem on the Corner. >> >> . >> Aw, that's only because only the best people send work to the . . .* >> Corner*. >> >> --Bob >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Tue Feb 15 10:19:17 2011 From: tad at opus40.org (Tad Richards) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 10:19:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Character-Study Poems In-Reply-To: References: <4D59A72E.2000800@nut-n-but.net> <4D59C173.6030606@nut-n-but.net> <4D5A7143.7010803@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Does this make Bob a New Critic? On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 10:17 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Everything is very fine, except for the following: > > > I myself have several ideas in my head, and where I have several, Bob has > several thousand, and most of them ask to be grappled with seriously. > > I'd say: If I have one idea in my head, Bob has several thousand opposite > hints to contradict it. [He is a volcano, no doubt, of the rarest species] > > > On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 2:09 PM, David Weinstock < > david.weinstock at gmail.com> wrote: > >> *All bad poetry springs from genuine feeling. To be natural is to be >> obvious, and to be obvious is to be inartistic*. -- Oscar Wilde >> >> Oscar would say anything for a laugh; he's not a reliable source of truth. >> He was a literate comedian, the Stephen Wright or Rita Rudner of his day. >> But I admire Bob Grumman for promoting a higher standard of rationality, so >> I must disagree. >> >> Bob, are you saying that a Philistine should be despised for taking the >> content of a poem seriously, while an aesthete is someone who must ignore >> all content, valuing only skillful execution? >> >> I think this is, first of all, a libel upon Philistines, who should not be >> criticized for ever taking seriously the claim of a poem to actually be *about >> *something that matters. Even if all bad poetry were sincere (which seems >> statistically improbable but no matter), it does not follow that all sincere >> poetry is bad. I believe that is called asserting the contrapositive. >> >> I think your observation also slanders aesthetes, because it says that >> they (we) are mere fanciers of the prettily executed, without an idea or >> opinion in their (our) heads. I myself have several ideas in my head, and >> where I have several, Bob has several thousand, and most of them ask to be >> grappled with seriously. Does that mean he is writing for Philistines? Would >> his ideas be less valuable if he expressed them accurately in poems? >> >> I believe that a good poem must not be entirely empty of content. I >> believe that a poet who aspires to be free of the demands of having subject >> matter and speaking some kind of truth is wasting his ink and my time. And I >> believe that a critic who claims to be content-neutral is kidding himself. >> >> The above is a manifesto, or perhaps it is a character study. I invite >> your thoughts. >> >> --David Weinstock >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Feb 15 10:26:47 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 10:26:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: References: <4D59A72E.2000800@nut-n-but.net> <4D59C173.6030606@nut-n-but.net> <4D5A6402.9020506@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Not, I hope, in the sense proposed here. At 10:18 AM 2/15/2011, you wrote: >I love Robin's poem. And I even read it. > >Mark -- isn't self-censorship, of one sort or >another, part of everything we do as writers? > >On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 8:15 AM, Anny Ballardini ><anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote: >I was always sent to the ... Corner, now that >you make me think of it. Guess why. Because at >kindergarten I was not able to sleep after lunch. > >On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Bob Grumman ><bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net> wrote: >On 2/15/2011 12:39 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: >>I read every single poem on the Corner. >. >Aw, that's only because only the best people send work to the . . .Corner. > >--Bob > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > >-- >Anny Ballardini >http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! >Friedrich Nietzsche > >? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >Giovenale > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Tue Feb 15 10:30:47 2011 From: tad at opus40.org (Tad Richards) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 10:30:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] again Re: Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: References: <665197501-1297645717-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-630136710-@bda2910.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <1037897703.965241.1297650225280.JavaMail.root@sz0105a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: I don't think there's any assumption of unanimity, nor do I think unanimity is necessary before we take the idea that offensiveness matters. If one is against self-censorship, it doesn't follow that one can use "I'm against self-censorship" to refudiate, in the words of our beloved ex-governor, any criticism of what one has said. On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 11:44 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > You're also assuming unanimity, which comes close to stereotyping--that > all black people would feel offended by anything that one black person would > find offensive. I suppose one should take a vote before saying anything > about anything. > > Do you remember the controversy a couple of years ago about the word > "niggardly?" Some black people found the word offensive, assuming it > referred to them. Not that blacks are generally stereotyped as stingy. That > would be Robin's tribe. Other black folks thought the whole thing pretty > embarrassing. > > Best, > > Mark > > At 11:17 PM 2/13/2011, you wrote: > > Which makes it hard to dramatize a racial stereotype. > > This is I think a bigger issue for us as writers than a third rate argument > about a second rate poem, regardless of the intentions of the poet. It's > about how much of what we think and feel, or think those around us think and > feel, is to remain unmentionable. I'm not big on censorship. Even > self-censorship. > > Best, > > Mark > > At 09:23 PM 2/13/2011, you wrote: > > I've restrained myself-- I'm new on the list. But suffice it to say my > heart is pounding & I must finally say something. If you're gay, & someone > says or writes something homophobic, you know it & it hurts. You don't need > a panel of poets to analyze & pass judgment. & if you're Jewish... I think > you get the picture. I happen to be white-- give it up already. When a > person of color is offended by racist stereotypes it is EXACTLY THAT. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: almaginnes at aol.com > To: "NewPoetry List" > Sent: Sunday, February 13, 2011 8:08:37 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent > > Does no one agree that it's a bad poem? > Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry > > -----Original Message----- > From: sheila black > Sender: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 01:03:56 > To: > Reply-To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, *As Landscape. > *$16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm > > > "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of > particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through > every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? > fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the > more they seem to contain? One can hear echoes from all the various > ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. > His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical > threnody?[it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a > personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." > > M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. > http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, *As Landscape. > *$16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm > > > "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of > particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through > every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? > fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the > more they seem to contain? One can hear echoes from all the various > ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. > His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical > threnody?[it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a > personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." > > M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. > http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Tue Feb 15 10:47:18 2011 From: tad at opus40.org (Tad Richards) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 10:47:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: References: <4D59A72E.2000800@nut-n-but.net> <4D59C173.6030606@nut-n-but.net> <4D5A6402.9020506@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: With all respect, I'm not sure it's entirely clear in what sense it has been proposed here. If you toy with the idea of writing a poem about wanting to fuck your mother, and then you decide, well, it could be a pretty good poem, but I really don't want to embarrass my mother if her friends read it, you at least have the option of censoring yourself, and it's not the most cowardly of considerations. Hoagland dreamed up a name for Venus Williams that says fairly blatantly, "let's get a good laugh at the expense of these dumb black people who dream up ridiculous names that no civilized person would ever use." Whether or not he puts it in the mouth of a persona, he's still the one that dreamed it up. It's not so Philistine to suggest that he might have thought -- do I really want to be that offensive? Is it worth it, for what I'm trying to do with this poem? Perhaps he did think along those lines, and he decided Hell yes, it's worth it. This is an important poem, and I can't write it without using the sort of degrading nickname my buddies and I used to dream up in junior high. Or perhaps he came up with other nicknames that were even worse than this one, and decided, Well, maybe I don't want to go that far. In any case, that sort of self-censorship is part of what we do, or at least part of what we can do, not illegitimately. And of course I'm not saying that any time we think "Maybe I shouldn't do that," we shouldn't do it. If one feels it's really important to write that poem about fucking one's mother, who's to say it's not? On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 10:26 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Not, I hope, in the sense proposed here. > > > At 10:18 AM 2/15/2011, you wrote: > > I love Robin's poem. And I even read it. > > Mark -- isn't self-censorship, of one sort or another, part of everything > we do as writers? > > On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 8:15 AM, Anny Ballardini > wrote: > I was always sent to the ... Corner, now that you make me think of it. > Guess why. Because at kindergarten I was not able to sleep after lunch. > > On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Bob Grumman > wrote: > On 2/15/2011 12:39 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > I read every single poem on the Corner. > > . > Aw, that's only because only the best people send work to the . . .Corner. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, *As Landscape. > *$16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm > > > "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of > particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through > every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? > fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the > more they seem to contain? One can hear echoes from all the various > ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. > His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical > threnody?[it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a > personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." > > M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. > http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Feb 15 11:42:27 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 11:42:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: References: <4D59A72E.2000800@nut-n-but.net><4D59C173.6030606@nut-n-but.net><4D5A6402.9020506@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4D5AACF3.6070703@nut-n-but.net> On 2/15/2011 8:15 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > I was always sent to the ... /Corner/, now that you make me think of > it. Guess why. Because at kindergarten I was not able to sleep after > lunch. . Aha, just as I thought! --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 11:39:16 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 10:39:16 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Character-Study Poems In-Reply-To: References: <4D59A72E.2000800@nut-n-but.net> <4D59C173.6030606@nut-n-but.net> <4D5A7143.7010803@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Sorry to be wasting your time, David. "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home *Mainly Black , **Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ;* *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; * ***Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; * ***G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 7:09 AM, David Weinstock wrote: > *All bad poetry springs from genuine feeling. To be natural is to be > obvious, and to be obvious is to be inartistic*. -- Oscar Wilde > > Oscar would say anything for a laugh; he's not a reliable source of truth. > He was a literate comedian, the Stephen Wright or Rita Rudner of his day. > But I admire Bob Grumman for promoting a higher standard of rationality, so > I must disagree. > > Bob, are you saying that a Philistine should be despised for taking the > content of a poem seriously, while an aesthete is someone who must ignore > all content, valuing only skillful execution? > > I think this is, first of all, a libel upon Philistines, who should not be > criticized for ever taking seriously the claim of a poem to actually be *about > *something that matters. Even if all bad poetry were sincere (which seems > statistically improbable but no matter), it does not follow that all sincere > poetry is bad. I believe that is called asserting the contrapositive. > > I think your observation also slanders aesthetes, because it says that they > (we) are mere fanciers of the prettily executed, without an idea or opinion > in their (our) heads. I myself have several ideas in my head, and where I > have several, Bob has several thousand, and most of them ask to be grappled > with seriously. Does that mean he is writing for Philistines? Would his > ideas be less valuable if he expressed them accurately in poems? > > I believe that a good poem must not be entirely empty of content. I believe > that a poet who aspires to be free of the demands of having subject matter > and speaking some kind of truth is wasting his ink and my time. And I > believe that a critic who claims to be content-neutral is kidding himself. > > The above is a manifesto, or perhaps it is a character study. I invite your > thoughts. > > --David Weinstock > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Feb 15 11:47:20 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 11:47:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Character-Study Poems In-Reply-To: References: <4D59A72E.2000800@nut-n-but.net><4D59C173.6030606@nut-n-but.net><4D5A7143.7010803@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4D5AAE18.8040001@nut-n-but.net> On 2/15/2011 10:19 AM, Tad Richards wrote: > Does this make Bob a New Critic? It indicates that I share at least one important belief of the new critics. I share many others, however, and it's on record that I consider myself more a New Critic than any other kind although I disagree with them on a few things of consequence. --Bob From cervantes.james at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 11:43:54 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 09:43:54 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Character-Study Poems In-Reply-To: References: <4D59A72E.2000800@nut-n-but.net> <4D59C173.6030606@nut-n-but.net> <4D5A7143.7010803@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: It was James Dean's fault: "Poem Without A Cause." -- Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 9:39 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Sorry to be wasting your time, David. > > > "What does a poet need an unlisted > number for?" > --George Costanza > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > *Mainly Black > , **Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ;* > *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; * > ***Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; * > ***G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 7:09 AM, David Weinstock < > david.weinstock at gmail.com> wrote: > >> *All bad poetry springs from genuine feeling. To be natural is to be >> obvious, and to be obvious is to be inartistic*. -- Oscar Wilde >> >> Oscar would say anything for a laugh; he's not a reliable source of truth. >> He was a literate comedian, the Stephen Wright or Rita Rudner of his day. >> But I admire Bob Grumman for promoting a higher standard of rationality, so >> I must disagree. >> >> Bob, are you saying that a Philistine should be despised for taking the >> content of a poem seriously, while an aesthete is someone who must ignore >> all content, valuing only skillful execution? >> >> I think this is, first of all, a libel upon Philistines, who should not be >> criticized for ever taking seriously the claim of a poem to actually be *about >> *something that matters. Even if all bad poetry were sincere (which seems >> statistically improbable but no matter), it does not follow that all sincere >> poetry is bad. I believe that is called asserting the contrapositive. >> >> I think your observation also slanders aesthetes, because it says that >> they (we) are mere fanciers of the prettily executed, without an idea or >> opinion in their (our) heads. I myself have several ideas in my head, and >> where I have several, Bob has several thousand, and most of them ask to be >> grappled with seriously. Does that mean he is writing for Philistines? Would >> his ideas be less valuable if he expressed them accurately in poems? >> >> I believe that a good poem must not be entirely empty of content. I >> believe that a poet who aspires to be free of the demands of having subject >> matter and speaking some kind of truth is wasting his ink and my time. And I >> believe that a critic who claims to be content-neutral is kidding himself. >> >> The above is a manifesto, or perhaps it is a character study. I invite >> your thoughts. >> >> --David Weinstock >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Tue Feb 15 11:53:30 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 10:53:30 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Character-Study Poems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I am largely in sympathy with this manifesto, though phrases like "a good poem must. . ." typically bring out the contrarian in me. I start thinking of the delight I have taken in "Jabberwocky" and various other poems featuring hey-nonny-nonny or hoo-hoo-hoo, and I realize that a poem can move pretty far toward the content-free end of the spectrum without losing me. But what I would add to the discussion is mostly this: my problem is mostly with those who frame the matter as an either/or. To focus exclusively on technique while ignoring subject is not only rather silly but almost as rare as the ivory billed woodpecker. Even the New Critics, famous for trying to exclude biography and context in order to focus on aesthetics, did no such thing in actual practice, as has been repeatedly pointed out. I suppose there are plenty of people, common readers as well as more sophisticated types, who do focus mostly on theme, political content, gender, and other aspects of subject matter, and show little interest in pure aesthetics. Yet that in itself doesn't make them philistine; I sure do agree with David Weinstock on that. When people sneer, condescend, or dismiss any talk of what a poem is "about," I mostly feel grateful that I'm not *that* sophisticated. My poetic world seems richer, and there are rather a lot of impressive folk who would agree with me, including, oh, Shakespeare and Whitman. ============== On 2/15/11 7:09 AM, "David Weinstock" wrote: > All bad poetry springs from genuine feeling. To be natural is to be obvious, > and to be obvious is to be inartistic. -- Oscar Wilde > > Oscar would say anything for a laugh; he's not a reliable source of truth. He > was a literate comedian, the Stephen Wright or Rita Rudner of his day. ?But I > admire Bob Grumman for promoting a higher standard of rationality, so I must > disagree. > > Bob, are you saying that a Philistine should be despised for taking the > content of a poem seriously, while an aesthete is someone who must ignore all > content, valuing only skillful execution? > > I think this is, first of all, a libel upon Philistines, who should not be > criticized for ever taking seriously the claim of a poem to actually be about > something that matters. Even if all bad poetry were sincere (which seems > statistically improbable but no matter), it does not follow that all sincere > poetry is bad. I believe that is called asserting the contrapositive. > > I think your observation also slanders aesthetes, because it says that they > (we) are mere fanciers of the prettily executed, without an idea or opinion in > their (our) heads. I myself have several ideas in my head, and where I have > several, Bob has several thousand, and most of them ask to be grappled with > seriously. Does that mean he is writing for Philistines? Would his ideas be > less valuable if he expressed them accurately in poems? > > I believe that a good poem must not be entirely empty of content. I believe > that a poet who aspires to be free of the demands of having subject matter and > speaking some kind of truth is wasting his ink and my time. And I believe that > a critic who claims to be content-neutral is kidding himself. > > The above is a manifesto, or perhaps it is a character study. I invite your > thoughts. > > --David Weinstock > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Feb 15 11:55:28 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 11:55:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: References: <4D59A72E.2000800@nut-n-but.net> <4D59C173.6030606@nut-n-but.net> <4D5A6402.9020506@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: I'm not sure what's at issue for you here. You seem to want to reduce the discussion to logical categories. It's not--it's about practice, in living and in writing, both of which are a lot messier. I don't toy with the idea of writing poems about (I never know what I'm writing about when I start writing--if I did I wouldn't bother to write). I suppose if I did preplan the issues might be different. I have on a few occasions had to think hard about the impact on people I care about before deciding what, where and when to publish. But that's one or two removes from the writing process. You seem to be demanding a purification of the soul of all possible conflicts, all disappointments with one's range of acceptances (or at least of the elimination from one's writing of all but the politically correct). Fine for the enlightened, I guess, but it would make for pretty boring writing. The struggle with one's limitations on the other hand is pretty interesting. I guess you don't remember that black people used to give their children the same names white people did. The turn on the part of many to more inventive names marking a different social milieu is recent, and it occasioned a lot of talk, precisely among folks like Hoagland's narrator. It was another indication that something unfamiliar and threatening was happening. Seems entirely appropriate in the poem. But I may be expressing my age here--the knowledge-base about even the very recent past becomes obsolete at a pretty terrific pace. Best, Mark At 10:47 AM 2/15/2011, you wrote: >With all respect, I'm not sure it's entirely >clear in what sense it has been proposed here. >If you toy with the idea of writing a poem about >wanting to fuck your mother, and then you >decide, well, it could be a pretty good poem, >but I really don't want to embarrass my mother >if her friends read it, you at least have the >option of censoring yourself, and it's not the >most cowardly of considerations. Hoagland >dreamed up a name for Venus Williams that says >fairly blatantly, "let's get a good laugh at the >expense of these dumb black people who dream up >ridiculous names that no civilized person would >ever use." Whether or not he puts it in the >mouth of a persona, he's still the one that >dreamed it up. It's not so Philistine to suggest >that he might have thought -- do I really want >to be that offensive? Is it worth it, for what >I'm trying to do with this poem? Perhaps he did >think along those lines, and he decided Hell >yes, it's worth it. This is an important poem, >and I can't write it without using the sort of >degrading nickname my buddies and I used to >dream up in junior high. Or perhaps he came up >with other nicknames that were even worse than >this one, and decided, Well, maybe I don't want >to go that far. In any case, that sort of >self-censorship is part of what we do, or at >least part of what we can do, not >illegitimately. And of course I'm not saying >that any time we think "Maybe I shouldn't do >that," we shouldn't do it. If one feels it's >really important to write that poem about >fucking one's mother, who's to say it's not? > > >On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 10:26 AM, Mark Weiss ><junction at earthlink.net> wrote: >Not, I hope, in the sense proposed here. > > >At 10:18 AM 2/15/2011, you wrote: >>I love Robin's poem. And I even read it. >> >>Mark -- isn't self-censorship, of one sort or >>another, part of everything we do as writers? >> >>On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 8:15 AM, Anny >>Ballardini < >>anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote: >>I was always sent to the ... Corner, now that >>you make me think of it. Guess why. Because at >>kindergarten I was not able to sleep after lunch. >>On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Bob Grumman >><bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net > wrote: >>On 2/15/2011 12:39 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: >>>I read every single poem on the Corner. >>. >>Aw, that's only because only the best people send work to the . . .Corner. >>--Bob >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> >>-- >>Anny Ballardini >>http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >>http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >>http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >>http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >>I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to >>give birth to a dancing star! >>Friedrich Nietzsche >>? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >>vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >>Giovenale >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > >New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. >$16. Order from >http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm > > >"What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a >lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the >poet alive in every sense of the word, and >through every one of his senses. Instead of >missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are >like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets >left out, the more they seem to contain One can >hear echoes from all the various >ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its >core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the >fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a >pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not >only into a mind, but a person, a personality, >this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." > >M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. >http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eposamentier at yahoo.com Tue Feb 15 12:00:27 2011 From: eposamentier at yahoo.com (Evelyn Posamentier) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 09:00:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Love it or not - Eileen Myles on VIDA's Count In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <261202.67767.qm@web31806.mail.mud.yahoo.com> i drink from yr knowledge --- On Mon, 2/14/11, Anny Ballardini wrote: From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Love it or not - Eileen Myles on VIDA's Count To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Monday, February 14, 2011, 11:34 PM Hi Amy, our Eileen is right, but she leaves out much. I am referring to Pasolini. It is true that he had a mother that prayed day and night for him, she was an extremely pious woman, but he was also the son of a lieutenant - in the Italy of those days it had quite a weight, and besides this, he was killed the way he was - but that was another Italy that murdered him. He had one good friend, Giuseppe Zigaina since when he was a child in Casarsa. I met Zigaina. Pasolini, before his death was under a terrifying pressure and slept with a scarf tied around his head. Zigaina says that Pasolini had seen his death, which he described in his poetry, and many are the passages that depict it. Ask Zigaina, and he will quote them to you - if not by heart, almost. Pasolini is an exemplary figure for his accomplishments and for the courage he had in fighting against the big monsters that in those years equally shared the big pie of Italy. Now there are little monsters, they are all in the same bathtub and in common they have "l'omerta'" - the conspiracy of silence, I clean your hand and you clean mine. Berlusconi is the big fat scapegoat, but don't worry, his prototype is well rooted here and projected ad infinitum. On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 2:57 AM, sheila black wrote: I have to say Eileen is so right on.? I am just a head over heels fan at this moment!? Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 15:28:11 -0800 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com To: POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU; new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu; pussipo at googlegroups.com Subject: [New-Poetry] Love it or not - Eileen Myles on VIDA's Count http://www.theawl.com/2011/02/being-female#more-71928 ? ********* VIDA: ?Women in Literary Arts +?Interviews Amy's Alias +?http://amyking.org/? ******** _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 12:20:00 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 11:20:00 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Character-Study Poems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've no problem with poems having subjects, so long as they're only apparent subjects. Poetry, like music, does not have to be *about* anything. A painting of a cow doesn't have to be about the cow. And to many portraitists a portrait is more "about" the curtains than whoever the apparent subject is. "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home *Mainly Black , **Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ;* *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; * ***Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; * ***G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 10:53 AM, David Graham wrote: > I am largely in sympathy with this manifesto, though phrases like "a good > poem must. . ." typically bring out the contrarian in me. I start thinking > of the delight I have taken in "Jabberwocky" and various other poems > featuring hey-nonny-nonny or hoo-hoo-hoo, and I realize that a poem can move > pretty far toward the content-free end of the spectrum without losing me. > > But what I would add to the discussion is mostly this: my problem is > mostly with those who frame the matter as an either/or. To focus > exclusively on technique while ignoring subject is not only rather silly but > almost as rare as the ivory billed woodpecker. Even the New Critics, famous > for trying to exclude biography and context in order to focus on aesthetics, > did no such thing in actual practice, as has been repeatedly pointed out. > > I suppose there are plenty of people, common readers as well as more > sophisticated types, who do focus mostly on theme, political content, > gender, and other aspects of subject matter, and show little interest in > pure aesthetics. Yet that in itself doesn't make them philistine; I sure do > agree with David Weinstock on that. > > When people sneer, condescend, or dismiss any talk of what a poem is > "about," I mostly feel grateful that I'm not *that* sophisticated. My > poetic world seems richer, and there are rather a lot of impressive folk who > would agree with me, including, oh, Shakespeare and Whitman. > > ============== > > > On 2/15/11 7:09 AM, "David Weinstock" wrote: > > *All bad poetry springs from genuine feeling. To be natural is to be > obvious, and to be obvious is to be inartistic*. -- Oscar Wilde > > Oscar would say anything for a laugh; he's not a reliable source of truth. > He was a literate comedian, the Stephen Wright or Rita Rudner of his day. > But I admire Bob Grumman for promoting a higher standard of rationality, so > I must disagree. > > Bob, are you saying that a Philistine should be despised for taking the > content of a poem seriously, while an aesthete is someone who must ignore > all content, valuing only skillful execution? > > I think this is, first of all, a libel upon Philistines, who should not be > criticized for ever taking seriously the claim of a poem to actually be *about > *something that matters. Even if all bad poetry were sincere (which seems > statistically improbable but no matter), it does not follow that all sincere > poetry is bad. I believe that is called asserting the contrapositive. > > I think your observation also slanders aesthetes, because it says that they > (we) are mere fanciers of the prettily executed, without an idea or opinion > in their (our) heads. I myself have several ideas in my head, and where I > have several, Bob has several thousand, and most of them ask to be grappled > with seriously. Does that mean he is writing for Philistines? Would his > ideas be less valuable if he expressed them accurately in poems? > > I believe that a good poem must not be entirely empty of content. I believe > that a poet who aspires to be free of the demands of having subject matter > and speaking some kind of truth is wasting his ink and my time. And I > believe that a critic who claims to be content-neutral is kidding himself. > > The above is a manifesto, or perhaps it is a character study. I invite your > thoughts. > > --David Weinstock > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/ > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ==================================================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eposamentier at yahoo.com Tue Feb 15 12:35:17 2011 From: eposamentier at yahoo.com (Evelyn Posamentier) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 09:35:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Love it or not - Eileen Myles on VIDA's Count In-Reply-To: <261202.67767.qm@web31806.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <721098.60225.qm@web31808.mail.mud.yahoo.com> oops, very sorry -- intended this for anny privately, ep --- On Tue, 2/15/11, Evelyn Posamentier wrote: From: Evelyn Posamentier Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Love it or not - Eileen Myles on VIDA's Count To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Tuesday, February 15, 2011, 9:00 AM i drink from yr knowledge --- On Mon, 2/14/11, Anny Ballardini wrote: From: Anny Ballardini Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Love it or not - Eileen Myles on VIDA's Count To: "NewPoetry List" Date: Monday, February 14, 2011, 11:34 PM Hi Amy, our Eileen is right, but she leaves out much. I am referring to Pasolini. It is true that he had a mother that prayed day and night for him, she was an extremely pious woman, but he was also the son of a lieutenant - in the Italy of those days it had quite a weight, and besides this, he was killed the way he was - but that was another Italy that murdered him. He had one good friend, Giuseppe Zigaina since when he was a child in Casarsa. I met Zigaina. Pasolini, before his death was under a terrifying pressure and slept with a scarf tied around his head. Zigaina says that Pasolini had seen his death, which he described in his poetry, and many are the passages that depict it. Ask Zigaina, and he will quote them to you - if not by heart, almost. Pasolini is an exemplary figure for his accomplishments and for the courage he had in fighting against the big monsters that in those years equally shared the big pie of Italy. Now there are little monsters, they are all in the same bathtub and in common they have "l'omerta'" - the conspiracy of silence, I clean your hand and you clean mine. Berlusconi is the big fat scapegoat, but don't worry, his prototype is well rooted here and projected ad infinitum. On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 2:57 AM, sheila black wrote: I have to say Eileen is so right on.? I am just a head over heels fan at this moment!? Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 15:28:11 -0800 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com To: POETICS at LISTSERV.BUFFALO.EDU; new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu; pussipo at googlegroups.com Subject: [New-Poetry] Love it or not - Eileen Myles on VIDA's Count http://www.theawl.com/2011/02/being-female#more-71928 ? ********* VIDA: ?Women in Literary Arts +?Interviews Amy's Alias +?http://amyking.org/? ******** _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -----Inline Attachment Follows----- _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Feb 15 12:48:52 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 12:48:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Character-Study Poems In-Reply-To: References: <4D59A72E.2000800@nut-n-but.net><4D59C173.6030606@nut-n-but.net><4D5A7143.7010803@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4D5ABC84.3010401@nut-n-but.net> On 2/15/2011 8:09 AM, David Weinstock wrote: > /All bad poetry springs from genuine feeling. To be natural is to be > obvious, and to be obvious is to be inartistic/. -- Oscar Wilde An exaggeration, and he doesn't mean genuine feeling must lead to bad poetry, or at least I don't think he does. I take him to mean that genuine feeling alone (i.e., genuine feeling without, among other things, technique) will always lead to bad poetry. As would technical brilliance sans "genuine feeling" or what I'd call commitment to the content of the poem. > > Oscar would say anything for a laugh; he's not a reliable source of > truth. He was a literate comedian, the Stephen Wright or Rita Rudner > of his day. But I admire Bob Grumman for promoting a higher standard > of rationality, so I must disagree. Oscar is a source of many of my ideas, although I believe I would have had them anyway because of my genes. I think just about everything he said was in the final analysis absolutely serious. In the remark above he is simply saying that it's pointless for an artist to reveal what we already know to us. Art is an expansion of what we know through (artistic) distortion, the artist giving us variations on the theme of reality. I think that is a truth. That art is to be admired for this is only a subjective opinion that I happen to agree with. I don't despise those on the other side, except when they indicate or imply that the truth is entirely on their side. > > Bob, are you saying that a Philistine should be despised for taking > the content of a poem seriously, while an aesthete is someone who must > ignore all content, valuing only skillful execution? > Yikes, David, that's like asking someone who has just said he prefers cats to dogs whether or not he thinks the government should provide all cats with 24/7 caretakers, shelter and all their meals and all dogs exterminated. You've committed some kind of logical fallacy I don't know the name of but wish I did. "Straw horse," maybe. I'm saying (or trying to say) that a person who judges the value of a poem entirely or mostly on its point of view (and content is much more than that) gets much less out of a poem than I think I do. I like many of Thomas Merton's poems in spite of how much I disagree with the religion they are full of. Ditto Hopkins's. A philistine with my religious views would not be able to do this, to his loss, in my view. I may not be 100% consistent. I dislike Dante's Divine Comedy because I'm unsympathetic with a worldview that is positive about the eternal torture of /anyone/, but especially of people for not agreeing with Dante. I tend to consider it grossly over-rated although I have to accept it as a major work. How much of my attitude is due to my disagreement with Dante, how much due to reasonable criticisms of what he did as an artist would, I think, be difficult to determine. Anyway, my chief gripe is with people who go to a poem in hopes of finding their author to be a soulmate, someone who seems to them to feel exactly the way they do about life. Rather than someone who, to reduce it to the simplest terms, says, "Look at the pretty flowers," and makes you see them the way you saw them when you first realized how beautiful they were (I'm thinking of Wordsworth's daffodils) and before you inevitably began taking them for granted. It gets complicated. All I can do to give an idea of my position is throw different thoughts your way. For instance, to tell you how I feel about the poems of E. E. Cummings, who is one of my three favorite pre-1960 American poets (Roethke and Stevens are the other two). I love his "in-Just" and think it a great poem. It has no point of view to speak of except, "spring and children are delightful." I totally agree with the poem he wrote about the Hungarian uprising but think it an inferior poem (at least for Cummings) because a rather simple-minded outburst against the US government for indifference to the plight of people trying to overthrow a totalitarian government. One of his poems I find idiotically opposed to science, which is close to being my religion, yet I consider it another major poem and a favorite of mine. I'm not big on Picasso's "Guernica" because it so overtly says something not worth saying, because so obvious, to wit: "War isn't nice." But it does some terrif things artistically, so I still like it. His pro-North Korean firing squad work is much worse. Propagandistically one-sided but absolutely trite. > I think this is, first of all, a libel upon Philistines, who should > not be criticized for ever taking seriously the claim of a poem to > actually be /about /something that matters. Even if all bad poetry > were sincere (which seems statistically improbable but no matter), it > does not follow that all sincere poetry is bad. I believe that is > called asserting the contrapositive. What I said has nothing to do with sincerity. I don't care whether a poem is sincere or not. > > I think your observation also slanders aesthetes, because it says that > they (we) are mere fanciers of the prettily executed, without an idea > or opinion in their (our) heads. I myself have several ideas in my > head, and where I have several, Bob has several thousand, and most of > them ask to be grappled with seriously. Does that mean he is writing > for Philistines? Would his ideas be less valuable if he expressed them > accurately in poems? I'm afraid you don't understand what I was saying, David. > I believe that a good poem must not be entirely empty of content. I > believe that a poet who aspires to be free of the demands of having > subject matter and speaking some kind of truth is wasting his ink and > my time. And I believe that a critic who claims to be content-neutral > is kidding himself. > > The above is a manifesto, or perhaps it is a character study. I invite > your thoughts. > > --David Weinstock I hope I've addressed everything you've said. Perhaps this will help: the question is not "content" versus "execution" (or what I'd prefer to call "technique") but a high ratio of content to technique versus a lower one. Very little of what we're saying is new, by the way. My view is pretty standard new critical, yours that of their opponents sixty or seventy years ago--not that the question isn't still being seriously discussed. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Tue Feb 15 12:57:11 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 11:57:11 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Character-Study Poems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Here's my contrarian side again: yes, you *do* have a problem with poems having subjects, as soon as you add the qualifier "so long as they're only apparent subjects." That's another one of those "poetry must" formulations, really. . . . That poetry does not "have to" be about anything I agree. But that doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be, either, seems to me. Maybe we're splitting hairs here. One can argue that any good poem, if it's good, transcends the triggering subject; Neruda's Elemental Odes are not *just* about tomatoes, dictionaries, and watermelons, etc. Of course, of course. . . . In any case, I just wanted to speak up for good old subject matter as worthy of attention in and of itself, along with all the rest. On 2/15/11 11:20 AM, "Halvard Johnson" wrote: > I've no problem with poems having subjects, so long as > they're only apparent subjects. Poetry, like music, does > not have to be about anything. A painting of a cow > doesn't have to be about the cow. And to many > portraitists a portrait is more "about" the curtains than > whoever the apparent subject is. > ?? ? > > "What does a?poet?need an?unlisted > ?number?for?" > ?? ?? ?? ?--George Costanza > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Mainly Black > 2EkAP3IM&hl=en&pli=1#> ,?Obras P?blicas > > ;?The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > -THIRD-EYE-Other-Sonnets> ; > Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ef=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283182804&sr=8-1> ;?Tango Bouquet > > ;?Theory of Harmony > ory1.pdf> ;? > Rapsodie espagnole > f> ;?Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283183153&sr=1-3> ;?The Sonnet Project > f> ;? > G(e)nome ;?Winter Journey > ;?Eclipse > ;?The Dance of the Red Swan > ; > Transparencies & Projections > > > > > On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 10:53 AM, David Graham wrote: >> I am largely in sympathy with this manifesto, though phrases like "a good >> poem must. . ." typically bring out the contrarian in me. ?I start thinking >> of the delight I have taken in "Jabberwocky" and various other poems >> featuring hey-nonny-nonny or hoo-hoo-hoo, and I realize that a poem can move >> pretty far toward the content-free end of the spectrum without losing me. ? >> >> But what I would add to the discussion is mostly this: ?my problem is mostly >> with those who frame the matter as an either/or. ?To focus exclusively on >> technique while ignoring subject is not only rather silly but almost as rare >> as the ivory billed woodpecker. ?Even the New Critics, famous for trying to >> exclude biography and context in order to focus on aesthetics, did no such >> thing in actual practice, as has been repeatedly pointed out. ? >> >> I suppose there are plenty of people, common readers as well as more >> sophisticated types, who do focus mostly on theme, political content, gender, >> and other aspects of subject matter, and show little interest in pure >> aesthetics. ?Yet that in itself doesn't make them philistine; I sure do agree >> with David Weinstock on that. ? >> >> When people sneer, condescend, or dismiss any talk of what a poem is "about," >> I mostly feel grateful that I'm not *that* sophisticated. ?My poetic world >> seems richer, and there are rather a lot of impressive folk who would agree >> with me, including, oh, Shakespeare and Whitman. ? >> >> ============== >> >> >> On 2/15/11 7:09 AM, "David Weinstock" > > wrote: >> >>> All bad poetry springs from genuine feeling. To be natural is to be obvious, >>> and to be obvious is to be inartistic. -- Oscar Wilde >>> >>> Oscar would say anything for a laugh; he's not a reliable source of truth. >>> He was a literate comedian, the Stephen Wright or Rita Rudner of his day. >>> ?But I admire Bob Grumman for promoting a higher standard of rationality, so >>> I must disagree. >>> >>> Bob, are you saying that a Philistine should be despised for taking the >>> content of a poem seriously, while an aesthete is someone who must ignore >>> all content, valuing only skillful execution? >>> >>> I think this is, first of all, a libel upon Philistines, who should not be >>> criticized for ever taking seriously the claim of a poem to actually be >>> about something that matters. Even if all bad poetry were sincere (which >>> seems statistically improbable but no matter), it does not follow that all >>> sincere poetry is bad. I believe that is called asserting the >>> contrapositive. >>> >>> I think your observation also slanders aesthetes, because it says that they >>> (we) are mere fanciers of the prettily executed, without an idea or opinion >>> in their (our) heads. I myself have several ideas in my head, and where I >>> have several, Bob has several thousand, and most of them ask to be grappled >>> with seriously. Does that mean he is writing for Philistines? Would his >>> ideas be less valuable if he expressed them accurately in poems? >>> >>> I believe that a good poem must not be entirely empty of content. I believe >>> that a poet who aspires to be free of the demands of having subject matter >>> and speaking some kind of truth is wasting his ink and my time. And I >>> believe that a critic who claims to be content-neutral is kidding himself. >>> >>> The above is a manifesto, or perhaps it is a character study. I invite your >>> thoughts. >>> >>> --David Weinstock >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ? >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 13:04:59 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 12:04:59 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Character-Study Poems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh, yes, I probably overstated that. A slight case of hyperbole, perhaps. "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home *Mainly Black , **Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ;* *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; * ***Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; * ***G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 11:57 AM, David Graham wrote: > Here's my contrarian side again: yes, you *do* have a problem with poems > having subjects, as soon as you add the qualifier "so long as they're only > apparent subjects." That's another one of those "poetry must" formulations, > really. . . . > > That poetry does not "have to" be about anything I agree. But that doesn't > mean it can't or shouldn't be, either, seems to me. > > Maybe we're splitting hairs here. One can argue that any good poem, if > it's good, transcends the triggering subject; Neruda's Elemental Odes are > not *just* about tomatoes, dictionaries, and watermelons, etc. > > Of course, of course. . . . In any case, I just wanted to speak up for > good old subject matter as worthy of attention in and of itself, along with > all the rest. > > > > On 2/15/11 11:20 AM, "Halvard Johnson" wrote: > > I've no problem with poems having subjects, so long as > they're only apparent subjects. Poetry, like music, does > not have to be *about* anything. A painting of a cow > doesn't have to be about the cow. And to many > portraitists a portrait is more "about" the curtains than > whoever the apparent subject is. > > > "What does a poet need an unlisted > number for?" > --George Costanza > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com < > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com/> > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > *Mainly Black** < > https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1i_JGJ_FqQldEnUq7cwjV8giYykz_tsGbTkC2EkAP3IM&hl=en&pli=1#> > , Obras P?blicas < > https://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/halvard-johnson-obras-publicas> > ; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets < > http://www.scribd.com/doc/27039868/Halvard-Johnson-THE-PERFECTION-OF-MOZART-S-THIRD-EYE-Other-Sonnets> > ; > Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones < > http://www.amazon.com/Harvest-Entrance-Clones-Halvard-Johnson/dp/0965404390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1283182804&sr=8-1> > ; Tango Bouquet < > https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0ATDp6rzKkBkhZGZwand2cHdfOWc1Mnh3Zw&hl=en> > ; Theory of Harmony < > https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/fall04/theory1.pdf> > ; > Rapsodie espagnole < > https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/rapsodi.pdf> > ; Guide to the Tokyo Subway < > http://www.amazon.com/Guide-Tokyo-Subway-Other-Poems/dp/0971487316/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283183153&sr=1-3> > ; The Sonnet Project < > https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://xpressed.wippiespace.com/hsonnet.pdf> > ; > G(e)nome ; Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse < > http://capa.conncoll.edu/johnson.eclipse.html> ; The Dance of the Red Swan > ; > Transparencies & Projections > > * > > > > > On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 10:53 AM, David Graham wrote: > > I am largely in sympathy with this manifesto, though phrases like "a good > poem must. . ." typically bring out the contrarian in me. I start thinking > of the delight I have taken in "Jabberwocky" and various other poems > featuring hey-nonny-nonny or hoo-hoo-hoo, and I realize that a poem can move > pretty far toward the content-free end of the spectrum without losing me. > > But what I would add to the discussion is mostly this: my problem is > mostly with those who frame the matter as an either/or. To focus > exclusively on technique while ignoring subject is not only rather silly but > almost as rare as the ivory billed woodpecker. Even the New Critics, famous > for trying to exclude biography and context in order to focus on aesthetics, > did no such thing in actual practice, as has been repeatedly pointed out. > > I suppose there are plenty of people, common readers as well as more > sophisticated types, who do focus mostly on theme, political content, > gender, and other aspects of subject matter, and show little interest in > pure aesthetics. Yet that in itself doesn't make them philistine; I sure do > agree with David Weinstock on that. > > When people sneer, condescend, or dismiss any talk of what a poem is > "about," I mostly feel grateful that I'm not *that* sophisticated. My > poetic world seems richer, and there are rather a lot of impressive folk who > would agree with me, including, oh, Shakespeare and Whitman. > > ============== > > > On 2/15/11 7:09 AM, "David Weinstock" http://david.weinstock at gmail.com> > wrote: > > *All bad poetry springs from genuine feeling. To be natural is to be > obvious, and to be obvious is to be inartistic*. -- Oscar Wilde > > Oscar would say anything for a laugh; he's not a reliable source of truth. > He was a literate comedian, the Stephen Wright or Rita Rudner of his day. > But I admire Bob Grumman for promoting a higher standard of rationality, so > I must disagree. > > Bob, are you saying that a Philistine should be despised for taking the > content of a poem seriously, while an aesthete is someone who must ignore > all content, valuing only skillful execution? > > I think this is, first of all, a libel upon Philistines, who should not be > criticized for ever taking seriously the claim of a poem to actually be *about > *something that matters. Even if all bad poetry were sincere (which seems > statistically improbable but no matter), it does not follow that all sincere > poetry is bad. I believe that is called asserting the contrapositive. > > I think your observation also slanders aesthetes, because it says that they > (we) are mere fanciers of the prettily executed, without an idea or opinion > in their (our) heads. I myself have several ideas in my head, and where I > have several, Bob has several thousand, and most of them ask to be grappled > with seriously. Does that mean he is writing for Philistines? Would his > ideas be less valuable if he expressed them accurately in poems? > > I believe that a good poem must not be entirely empty of content. I believe > that a poet who aspires to be free of the demands of having subject matter > and speaking some kind of truth is wasting his ink and my time. And I > believe that a critic who claims to be content-neutral is kidding himself. > > The above is a manifesto, or perhaps it is a character study. I invite your > thoughts. > > --David Weinstock > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > -- > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/ > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ==================================================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Feb 15 13:16:35 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 13:16:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship In-Reply-To: References: <665197501-1297645717-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-630136710-@bda2910.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><1037897703 .965241.1297650225280.JavaMail.root@sz0105a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> Message-ID: <4D5AC303.3020509@nut-n-but.net> If I decide against using language in a literary work that I think it dramatically and aesthetically appropriate in because I don't want to offend some victim group or my morally-vigilant liberal friends, it is bad self-censorship; deciding against language in the work because I personally don't consider it dramatically or aesthetically effective is good self-censorship. I would call the first artistic cowardice (although I've certainly committed it), the second artistic discrimination. --Bob From GrahamD at ripon.edu Tue Feb 15 13:17:37 2011 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 12:17:37 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Character-Study Poems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201D1176-A892-4D55-800D-EA4AC04E2B50@ripon.edu> I've told you a million times not to exaggerate, Hal.... =================== David Graham Grahamd at ripon.edu Home page: http://web.me.com/drjazz ==================== On Feb 15, 2011, at 12:05 PM, "Halvard Johnson" wrote: > Oh, yes, I probably overstated that. A slight > case of hyperbole, perhaps. > > > " > > On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 11:57 AM, David Graham wrote: > Here's my contrarian side again: yes, you *do* have a problem with poems having subjects, as soon as you add the qualifier "so long as they're only apparent subjects." That's another one of those "poetry must" formulations, really. . . . > > That poetry does not "have to" be about anything I agree. But that doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be, either, seems to me. > > Maybe we're splitting hairs here. One can argue that any good poem, if it's good, transcends the triggering subject; Neruda's Elemental Odes are not *just* about tomatoes, dictionaries, and watermelons, etc. > > Of course, of course. . . . In any case, I just wanted to speak up for good old subject matter as worthy of attention in and of itself, along with all the rest. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com Tue Feb 15 13:14:30 2011 From: robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 13:14:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: References: <4D59A72E.2000800@nut-n-but.net><4D59C173.6030606@nut-n-but.net><4D5A6402.9020506@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Tad wrote: Hoagland dreamed up a name for Venus Williams that says fairly blatantly, "let's get a good laugh at the expense of these dumb black people who dream up ridiculous names that no civilized person would ever use." Whether or not he puts it in the mouth of a persona, he's still the one that dreamed it up. Actually, I read this differently -- he's trying to think what a dumb red-necked hick would make of Venus Williams' name, and decides that this particular mangle would be characteristic of them. Thus if there's any patronising involved, it's at the expense not of blacks but of red-necks. (My apologies for using the stereotypical weighting around the term "red-neck" -- I'm shorthanding for the sake of economy, and am sure my learned audience can fill in the necessary context.) The mangle itself doesn't bother me -- it's the getting of the mangle wrong that gets up my nose. I'm pretty sure that there are people, probably some blacks as well as some whites, who'd make fun of Venus Williams' name, but I seriously doubt that such a class of folks would have the nous to switch the more familiar term Venus for the less familiar term Aphrodite. Similarly "Masterpiece Theatre" as used in the poem -- folk who sneer at elitist drama don't (I guess) refer to "Masterpiece Theatre". They'd say something (I imagine) like "that pile of crap they broadcast on public radio", and probably follow it up with a complaint about how their tax dollars were being used to pay for tedious shite no sensible person bothers with. Linguistic ineptitude, like referring to Christ as "The Big Wan". "The Big Wan"? "The Big Wan"? Fucks sake jimmy, tell you're a pape. It's The Big Yin. Get it right, or I'll pit the heid on you. {Which, on consideration, goes to show that it might be possible to use the phrase, "The Big Wan", in a poem. It would, however, signal that the speaker was a Glasgow Catholic who for some reason was trying to use Protestant terminology, and thus manages to trip up over the common and affectionate Protestant naming of Christ as "The Big Yin" (The Big One) by substituting the Catholic "wan" for the Protestant "yin" (for SE "one"). It is, I suppose, just barely possible that Hoagland is attempting something of this sort in his poem. As Mark pertinently pointed out earlier in this thread, the distinction between the Lyric I and a fully dramatised persona is never uncomplicated.} The primary obligation on a poet who intends to present a dramatised speaker is to get the language right. It's here that Hoagland (for me) fails pretty abysmally. I shudder to think what would have eventuated if he'd ventured on a AAVE speaker. Prolly made them speak in Ebonics. Robin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ It's not so Philistine to suggest that he might have thought -- do I really want to be that offensive? Is it worth it, for what I'm trying to do with this poem? Perhaps he did think along those lines, and he decided Hell yes, it's worth it. This is an important poem, and I can't write it without using the sort of degrading nickname my buddies and I used to dream up in junior high. Or perhaps he came up with other nicknames that were even worse than this one, and decided, Well, maybe I don't want to go that far. In any case, that sort of self-censorship is part of what we do, or at least part of what we can do, not illegitimately. And of course I'm not saying that any time we think "Maybe I shouldn't do that," we shouldn't do it. If one feels it's really important to write that poem about fucking one's mother, who's to say it's not? On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 10:26 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: Not, I hope, in the sense proposed here. At 10:18 AM 2/15/2011, you wrote: I love Robin's poem. And I even read it. Mark -- isn't self-censorship, of one sort or another, part of everything we do as writers? On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 8:15 AM, Anny Ballardini < anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote: I was always sent to the ... Corner, now that you make me think of it. Guess why. Because at kindergarten I was not able to sleep after lunch. On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: On 2/15/2011 12:39 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: I read every single poem on the Corner. . Aw, that's only because only the best people send work to the . . .Corner. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 13:25:49 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 12:25:49 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Character-Study Poems In-Reply-To: <201D1176-A892-4D55-800D-EA4AC04E2B50@ripon.edu> References: <201D1176-A892-4D55-800D-EA4AC04E2B50@ripon.edu> Message-ID: Seemed like more often than that, David. "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home *Mainly Black , **Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ;* *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; * ***Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; * ***G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 12:17 PM, Graham, David wrote: > I've told you a million times not to exaggerate, Hal.... > > =================== > David Graham > Grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > ==================== > > On Feb 15, 2011, at 12:05 PM, "Halvard Johnson" wrote: > > Oh, yes, I probably overstated that. A slight > case of hyperbole, perhaps. > > > " > > On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 11:57 AM, David Graham < > grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote: > >> Here's my contrarian side again: yes, you *do* have a problem with >> poems having subjects, as soon as you add the qualifier "so long as they're >> only apparent subjects." That's another one of those "poetry must" >> formulations, really. . . . >> >> That poetry does not "have to" be about anything I agree. But that >> doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be, either, seems to me. >> >> Maybe we're splitting hairs here. One can argue that any good poem, if >> it's good, transcends the triggering subject; Neruda's Elemental Odes are >> not *just* about tomatoes, dictionaries, and watermelons, etc. >> >> Of course, of course. . . . In any case, I just wanted to speak up for >> good old subject matter as worthy of attention in and of itself, along with >> all the rest. >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Feb 15 13:28:19 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 10:28:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship In-Reply-To: <4D5AC303.3020509@nut-n-but.net> References: <665197501-1297645717-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-630136710-@bda2910.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><1037897703 .965241.1297650225280.JavaMail.root@sz0105a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <4D5AC303.3020509@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <348078.57321.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> If you decide not to use it ("self censor") because you know your use to be gratuitous, for incendiary purposes, or just to garner attention in the cheapest possible way, then perhaps you are a poet. If you use it without examining your own heart (yes, I equated 'intent' with 'heart'), then you are no poet -- at all. Amy Noise proves nothing. Often a hen who has merely laid an egg cackles as if she had laid an asteroid.- Mark Twain ********* VIDA: Women in Literary Arts + Interviews Amy's Alias + http://amyking.org/ ******** ____________________________________________________________________________________ Now that's room service! Choose from over 150,000 hotels in 45,000 destinations on Yahoo! Travel to find your fit. http://farechase.yahoo.com/promo-generic-14795097 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Feb 15 13:34:08 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 13:34:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship In-Reply-To: <4D5AC303.3020509@nut-n-but.net> References: <665197501-1297645717-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-630136710-@bda2910.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <1037897703 .965241.1297650225280.JavaMail.root@sz0105a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <4D5AC303.3020509@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Well-put. At 01:16 PM 2/15/2011, you wrote: >If I decide against using language in a literary >work that I think it dramatically and >aesthetically appropriate in because I don't >want to offend some victim group or my >morally-vigilant liberal friends, it is bad >self-censorship; deciding against language in >the work because I personally don't consider it >dramatically or aesthetically effective is good >self-censorship. I would call the first >artistic cowardice (although I've certainly >committed it), the second artistic discrimination. > >--Bob >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Feb 15 13:44:56 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 13:44:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Character-Study Poems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D5AC9A8.1050802@nut-n-but.net> On 2/15/2011 11:53 AM, David Graham wrote: > I am largely in sympathy with this manifesto, though phrases like "a > good poem must. . ." typically bring out the contrarian in me. I > start thinking of the delight I have taken in "Jabberwocky" and > various other poems featuring hey-nonny-nonny or hoo-hoo-hoo, and I > realize that a poem can move pretty far toward the content-free end of > the spectrum without losing me. What makes "hey-nonny-nonny" not content, David? But I suppose you mean "semantic content." No poem can be content-free. > > But what I would add to the discussion is mostly this: my problem is > mostly with those who frame the matter as an either/or. To focus > exclusively on technique while ignoring subject is not only rather > silly but almost as rare as the ivory billed woodpecker. Even the New > Critics, famous for trying to exclude biography and context in order > to focus on aesthetics, did no such thing in actual practice, as has > been repeatedly pointed out. Right. > > > I suppose there are plenty of people, common readers as well as more > sophisticated types, who do focus mostly on theme, political content, > gender, and other aspects of subject matter, and show little interest > in pure aesthetics. Yet that in itself doesn't make them philistine; > I sure do agree with David Weinstock on that. What would make them Philistine? My dictionary says a Philistine is one who is annoying indifferent to artistic values. An example would be someone who decides what books to buy on the basis of how they'll look in his bookcase, or of how effectively they'll make him seem cultured--anything rather than what their aesthetic value is. > > > When people sneer, condescend, or dismiss any talk of what a poem is > "about," I mostly feel grateful that I'm not *that* sophisticated. My > poetic world seems richer, and there are rather a lot of impressive > folk who would agree with me, including, oh, Shakespeare and Whitman. I suspect dismissal of any talk of what a poem does is much more widespread than dismissal of what it is about. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Feb 15 13:49:16 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 13:49:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Character-Study Poems In-Reply-To: <4D5ABC84.3010401@nut-n-but.net> References: <4D59A72E.2000800@nut-n-but.net><4D59C173.6030606@nut-n-but.net><4D5A7143.7010803@nut-n-but.net> <4D5ABC84.3010401@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4D5ACAAC.3040701@nut-n-but.net> Am I the only one who sometimes clicks on one of his own posts too absent-mindedly to know who wrote it and is surprised to find another person agreeing with him so completely. OR wonders what on earth the idiot is talking about? --Bob From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Tue Feb 15 13:46:51 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 18:46:51 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Character-Study Poems In-Reply-To: <4D5ACAAC.3040701@nut-n-but.net> References: <4D59A72E.2000800@nut-n-but.net><4D59C173.6030606@nut-n-but.net><4D5A7143.7010803@nut-n-but.net>, , <4D5ABC84.3010401@nut-n-but.net>, <4D5ACAAC.3040701@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: No this happens to me always/often. Why I am mostly a lurker. Sheila > Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 13:49:16 -0500 > From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Character-Study Poems > > Am I the only one who sometimes clicks on one of his own posts too > absent-mindedly to know who wrote it and is surprised to find another > person agreeing with him so completely. OR wonders what on earth the > idiot is talking about? > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Feb 15 13:48:49 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 13:48:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Character-Study Poems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Epsom salts usually helps. At 01:04 PM 2/15/2011, you wrote: >Oh, yes, I probably overstated that. A slight? >case of hyperbole, perhaps.? >? ? ? > New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Feb 15 14:02:35 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 14:02:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: References: <4D59A72E.2000800@nut-n-but.net> <4D59C173.6030606@nut-n-but.net> <4D5A6402.9020506@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: May be you've got the social class stuff wrong, Robin. These folks are watching a tennis match. They'd be capable of referencing Masterpiece Theater. At 01:14 PM 2/15/2011, you wrote: >Tad wrote: > Hoagland dreamed up a name for Venus > Williams that says fairly blatantly, > "let's get a good laugh at the expense > of these dumb black people who dream > up ridiculous names that no civilized person would ever use." > Whether or not he puts it in the mouth > of a persona, he's still the one that dreamed it up. > >Actually, I read this differently -- he's trying >to think what a dumb red-necked hick would make >of Venus Williams' name, and decides that this >particular mangle would be characteristic of >them. Thus if there's any patronising involved, >it's at the expense not of blacks but of red-necks. > >(My apologies for using the stereotypical >weighting around the term "red-neck" -- I'm >shorthanding for the sake of economy, and am >sure my learned audience can fill in the necessary context.) > >The mangle itself doesn't bother me -- it's the >getting of the mangle wrong that gets up my >nose. I'm pretty sure that there are people, >probably some blacks as well as some whites, >who'd make fun of Venus Williams' name, but I >seriously doubt that such a class of folks would >have the nous to switch the more familiar term >Venus for the less familiar term Aphrodite. > >Similarly "Masterpiece Theatre" as used in the >poem -- folk who sneer at elitist drama don't (I >guess) refer to "Masterpiece Theatre". They'd >say something (I imagine) like "that pile of >crap they broadcast on public radio", and >probably follow it up with a complaint about how >their tax dollars were being used to pay for >tedious shite no sensible person bothers with. > >Linguistic ineptitude, like referring to Christ >as "The Big Wan". "The Big Wan"? "The Big >Wan"? Fucks sake jimmy, tell you're a >pape. It's The Big Yin. Get it right, or I'll pit the heid on you. > >{Which, on consideration, goes to show that it >might be possible to use the phrase, "The Big >Wan", in a poem. It would, however, signal that >the speaker was a Glasgow Catholic who for some >reason was trying to use Protestant terminology, >and thus manages to trip up over the common and >affectionate Protestant naming of Christ as "The >Big Yin" (The Big One) by substituting the >Catholic "wan" for the Protestant "yin" (for SE >"one"). It is, I suppose, just barely possible >that Hoagland is attempting something of this >sort in his poem. As Mark pertinently pointed >out earlier in this thread, the distinction >between the Lyric I and a fully dramatised persona is never uncomplicated.} > >The primary obligation on a poet who intends to >present a dramatised speaker is to get the language right. > >It's here that Hoagland (for me) fails pretty >abysmally. I shudder to think what would have >eventuated if he'd ventured on a AAVE speaker. > >Prolly made them speak in Ebonics. > >Robin > > >---------- > >It's not so Philistine to suggest that he might >have thought -- do I really want to be that >offensive? Is it worth it, for what I'm trying >to do with this poem? Perhaps he did think along >those lines, and he decided Hell yes, it's worth >it. This is an important poem, and I can't write >it without using the sort of degrading nickname >my buddies and I used to dream up in junior >high. Or perhaps he came up with other nicknames >that were even worse than this one, and decided, >Well, maybe I don't want to go that far. In any >case, that sort of self-censorship is part of >what we do, or at least part of what we can do, >not illegitimately. And of course I'm not saying >that any time we think "Maybe I shouldn't do >that," we shouldn't do it. If one feels it's >really important to write that poem about >fucking one's mother, who's to say it's not? > > >On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 10:26 AM, Mark Weiss ><junction at earthlink.net> wrote: >Not, I hope, in the sense proposed here. > > >At 10:18 AM 2/15/2011, you wrote: >>I love Robin's poem. And I even read it. >> >>Mark -- isn't self-censorship, of one sort or >>another, part of everything we do as writers? >> >>On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 8:15 AM, Anny >>Ballardini < >>anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote: >>I was always sent to the ... Corner, now that >>you make me think of it. Guess why. Because at >>kindergarten I was not able to sleep after lunch. >>On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Bob Grumman >><bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net > wrote: >>On 2/15/2011 12:39 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: >>>I read every single poem on the Corner. >>. >>Aw, that's only because only the best people send work to the . . .Corner. >>--Bob >> > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Feb 15 14:05:13 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 14:05:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship In-Reply-To: <348078.57321.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <665197501-1297645717-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-630136710-@bda2910.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <1037897703 .965241.1297650225280.JavaMail.root@sz0105a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <4D5AC303.3020509@nut-n-but.net> <348078.57321.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Good to know that you've figured this out. Must be the result of decades of self-examination resulting in total self-awareness. My congratulations. Mark At 01:28 PM 2/15/2011, you wrote: >If you decide not to use it ("self censor") >because you know your use to be gratuitous, for >incendiary purposes, or just to garner attention >in the cheapest possible way, then perhaps you >are a poet. If you use it without examining >your own heart (yes, I equated 'intent' with >'heart'), then you are no poet -- at all. > >Amy > >Noise proves nothing. Often a hen who has merely >laid an egg cackles as if she had laid an asteroid. >- Mark Twain > > >********* >VIDA: Women in Literary Arts >+ Interviews > >Amy's Alias >+ http://amyking.org/ >******** > > > > >Sucker-punch >spam with award-winning protection. >Try the >free >Yahoo! Mail Beta. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Tue Feb 15 14:09:03 2011 From: tad at opus40.org (Tad Richards) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 14:09:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: References: <4D59A72E.2000800@nut-n-but.net> <4D59C173.6030606@nut-n-but.net> <4D5A6402.9020506@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Robin -it's hard to have it both ways-- to say "this isn't me, this is some redneck I'm making fun of," if I then use language that I would use but the redneck wouldn't. Mark -- I thought I was going out of my way to make it clear that I wasn't saying what anyone ought to do. On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > May be you've got the social class stuff wrong, Robin. These folks are > watching a tennis match. They'd be capable of referencing Masterpiece > Theater. > > > At 01:14 PM 2/15/2011, you wrote: > > Tad wrote: > Hoagland dreamed up a name for Venus Williams that says fairly > blatantly, > "let's get a good laugh at the expense of these dumb black people > who dream > up ridiculous names that no civilized person would ever use." > Whether or not he puts it in the mouth of a persona, he's still > the one that dreamed it up. > > Actually, I read this differently -- he's trying to think what a dumb > red-necked hick would make of Venus Williams' name, and decides that this > particular mangle would be characteristic of them. Thus if there's any > patronising involved, it's at the expense not of blacks but of red-necks. > > (My apologies for using the stereotypical weighting around the term > "red-neck" -- I'm shorthanding for the sake of economy, and am sure my > learned audience can fill in the necessary context.) > > The mangle itself doesn't bother me -- it's the getting of the mangle wrong > that gets up my nose. I'm pretty sure that there are people, probably some > blacks as well as some whites, who'd make fun of Venus Williams' name, but I > seriously doubt that such a class of folks would have the nous to switch the > more familiar term Venus for the less familiar term Aphrodite. > > Similarly "Masterpiece Theatre" as used in the poem -- folk who sneer at > elitist drama don't (I guess) refer to "Masterpiece Theatre". They'd say > something (I imagine) like "that pile of crap they broadcast on public > radio", and probably follow it up with a complaint about how their tax > dollars were being used to pay for tedious shite no sensible person bothers > with. > > Linguistic ineptitude, like referring to Christ as "The Big Wan". "The Big > Wan"? "The Big Wan"? Fucks sake jimmy, tell you're a pape. It's The Big > Yin. Get it right, or I'll pit the heid on you. > > {Which, on consideration, goes to show that it might be possible to use the > phrase, "The Big Wan", in a poem. It would, however, signal that the > speaker was a Glasgow Catholic who for some reason was trying to use > Protestant terminology, and thus manages to trip up over the common and > affectionate Protestant naming of Christ as "The Big Yin" (The Big One) by > substituting the Catholic "wan" for the Protestant "yin" (for SE "one"). It > is, I suppose, just barely possible that Hoagland is attempting something of > this sort in his poem. As Mark pertinently pointed out earlier in this > thread, the distinction between the Lyric I and a fully dramatised persona > is never uncomplicated.} > > The primary obligation on a poet who intends to present a dramatised > speaker is to get the language right. > > It's here that Hoagland (for me) fails pretty abysmally. I shudder to > think what would have eventuated if he'd ventured on a AAVE speaker. > > Prolly made them speak in Ebonics. > > Robin > > ------------------------------ > > It's not so Philistine to suggest that he might have thought -- do I really > want to be that offensive? Is it worth it, for what I'm trying to do with > this poem? Perhaps he did think along those lines, and he decided Hell yes, > it's worth it. This is an important poem, and I can't write it without using > the sort of degrading nickname my buddies and I used to dream up in junior > high. Or perhaps he came up with other nicknames that were even worse than > this one, and decided, Well, maybe I don't want to go that far. In any case, > that sort of self-censorship is part of what we do, or at least part of what > we can do, not illegitimately. And of course I'm not saying that any time we > think "Maybe I shouldn't do that," we shouldn't do it. If one feels it's > really important to write that poem about fucking one's mother, who's to say > it's not? > > > On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 10:26 AM, Mark Weiss > wrote: > Not, I hope, in the sense proposed here. > > > At 10:18 AM 2/15/2011, you wrote: > > I love Robin's poem. And I even read it. > > Mark -- isn't self-censorship, of one sort or another, part of everything > we do as writers? > > On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 8:15 AM, Anny Ballardini > wrote: I was always sent to the ... Corner, now that you make me think of > it. Guess why. Because at kindergarten I was not able to sleep after lunch. > On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Bob Grumman > wrote: On 2/15/2011 12:39 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > I read every single poem on the Corner. > > . Aw, that's only because only the best people send work to the . . > .Corner. > --Bob > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, *As Landscape. > *$16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm > > > "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of > particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through > every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? > fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the > more they seem to contain? One can hear echoes from all the various > ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. > His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical > threnody?[it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a > personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." > > M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. > http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Tue Feb 15 14:12:22 2011 From: tad at opus40.org (Tad Richards) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 14:12:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship In-Reply-To: References: <665197501-1297645717-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-630136710-@bda2910.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <4D5AC303.3020509@nut-n-but.net> <348078.57321.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Bob -- I don't know if my motives are ever that pure or straightforward. But if one thinks in terms of "morally-vigilant liberal friends," one might equally consider that one is putting language just to prove the point that one doesn't self-censor. On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 2:05 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Good to know that you've figured this out. Must be the result of decades > of self-examination resulting in total self-awareness. > > My congratulations. > > Mark > > > > > > > At 01:28 PM 2/15/2011, you wrote: > > If you decide not to use it ("self censor") because you know your use to be > gratuitous, for incendiary purposes, or just to garner attention in the > cheapest possible way, then perhaps you are a poet. If you use it without > examining your own heart (yes, I equated 'intent' with 'heart'), then you > are no poet -- at all. > > Amy > > Noise proves nothing. Often a hen who has merely laid an egg cackles as if > she had laid an asteroid. > - Mark Twain > > > ********* > VIDA: Women in Literary Arts > + Interviews > > Amy's Alias > + http://amyking.org/ > ******** > > > > > Sucker-punch spamwith award-winning protection. > Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, *As Landscape. > *$16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm > > > "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of > particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through > every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? > fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the > more they seem to contain? One can hear echoes from all the various > ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. > His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical > threnody?[it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a > personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." > > M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. > http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Tue Feb 15 14:29:57 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 19:29:57 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship In-Reply-To: References: <665197501-1297645717-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-630136710-@bda2910.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>, , , <4D5AC303.3020509@nut-n-but.net>, <348078.57321.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>, , Message-ID: The heart is a messy place. Certainly one should not be gratuitious entirely--or not in a cynical way--but perhaps one should not conceal the mess either--I think of Sylvia Plath as an example; people tend to love her or hate her depending on how they feel about her often hyberbolic and/or audacious system of comparisons--her craft of the incendiary. Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 14:12:22 -0500 From: tad at opus40.org To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship Bob -- I don't know if my motives are ever that pure or straightforward. But if one thinks in terms of "morally-vigilant liberal friends," one might equally consider that one is putting language just to prove the point that one doesn't self-censor. On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 2:05 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: Good to know that you've figured this out. Must be the result of decades of self-examination resulting in total self-awareness. My congratulations. Mark At 01:28 PM 2/15/2011, you wrote: If you decide not to use it ("self censor") because you know your use to be gratuitous, for incendiary purposes, or just to garner attention in the cheapest possible way, then perhaps you are a poet. If you use it without examining your own heart (yes, I equated 'intent' with 'heart'), then you are no poet -- at all. Amy Noise proves nothing. Often a hen who has merely laid an egg cackles as if she had laid an asteroid. - Mark Twain ********* VIDA: Women in Literary Arts + Interviews Amy's Alias + http://amyking.org/ ******** Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain? One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody?[it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 15:32:40 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 21:32:40 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Engraved on a Statue of Aphrodite Message-ID: *ENGRAVED ON A STATUE OF APHRODITE* This is the land of Kypris, since it pleases her to gaze for ever from land over the glittering sea. So that she may bear the sailors safe to land; and the sea quivers, looking upon her shining image. Anyte of Tegea http://elfinspell.com/ClassicalTexts/Poetry/AnyteOfTegea-Sappho/Aldington-Anyte.html -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From barry.spacks at verizon.net Tue Feb 15 15:47:49 2011 From: barry.spacks at verizon.net (Barry Spacks) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 12:47:49 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2C32EDAC-437E-4681-BC15-94700CDD96D4@verizon.net> On Feb 15, 2011, at 11:30 AM, Tad Richards wrote: > > > Robin -it's hard to have it both ways-- to say "this isn't me, this > is some > redneck I'm making fun of," if I then use language that I would use > but the > redneck wouldn't. > From which it follows -- no? -- that the mild sense of persona here is not coming across out of "redneckery." My sense of the poem centers on its resistance to dark satire of an ugly-minded speaker. The poem comes closer to presenting the speaker as an Everyman semi- consciously aware of being afflicted with disdain for the "Other." Thus the piece tries to implicate us all, and given its fine sense of narrative strategy I can't see how it can be easily dismissed as "awful." The companion thread on the list now, emerging from the discussion of the Hoagland, this questioning of the morality of dangerous or hurtful choices, seems to center on the name of the tennis star, and indeed the argument could be made that here the unreliable narrator is allowed by his poet to go over the top. But given the tennis news alive at the moment, even had he chosen to say Gorgeous Jones the reference and effect of sneer would be about the same. This sneer is part of the disease of the speaker, and who will honestly say it's not a common one, a brutality of consciousness that may be traced back through eons and eons of the emotional equivalent of the autonomic nervous system (for which only Right Action and Mindfulness may serve as effective beta-blockers). Huge subject. I'm grateful for the attention it's receiving. Barry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Feb 15 15:57:06 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 15:57:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship In-Reply-To: References: <665197501-1297645717-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-630136710-@bda2910.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><4D5AC303.3020509@nut -n-but.net><348078.57321.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D5AE8A2.9000002@nut-n-but.net> On 2/15/2011 2:12 PM, Tad Richards wrote: > Bob -- I don't know if my motives are ever that pure or > straightforward. But if one thinks in terms of "morally-vigilant > liberal friends," one might equally consider that one is putting > language just to prove the point that one doesn't self-censor. I'm not following you, Tad. Obviously, I don't think much of those who do what they can to limit the speech of others and don't mind taking mild jabs at them as with my "morally-vigilant liberal friends." I hate to tell you this, though, but you'd be horrified at all the things I'd've liked to have said at times but didn't because I'd get attacked like Hoagland was by some morally-vigilant liberal, if that is what his attacker was, instead of a publicity-seeker. If you were implying I don't. --Bob From halvard at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 15:53:09 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 14:53:09 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject In-Reply-To: <2C32EDAC-437E-4681-BC15-94700CDD96D4@verizon.net> References: <2C32EDAC-437E-4681-BC15-94700CDD96D4@verizon.net> Message-ID: No matter what a writer does, it won't prevent someone somewhere from being offended, outraged, hurt. It might even earn one a fatwa. How many people does a writer have to hurt, wound, offend, before his/her writing becomes hurtful, wounding, offensive? The answer, I guess, is one. "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home *Mainly Black , **Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ;* *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; * ***Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; * ***G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 2:47 PM, Barry Spacks wrote: > > On Feb 15, 2011, at 11:30 AM, Tad Richards wrote: > > > > Robin -it's hard to have it both ways-- to say "this isn't me, this is some > redneck I'm making fun of," if I then use language that I would use but the > redneck wouldn't. > > From which it follows -- no? -- that the mild sense of persona here is > not coming across out of "redneckery." My sense of the poem centers on > its resistance to dark satire of an ugly-minded speaker. The poem > comes closer to presenting the speaker as an Everyman semi-consciously > aware of being afflicted with disdain for the "Other." Thus the piece > tries > to implicate us all, and given its fine sense of narrative strategy I > can't > see how it can be easily dismissed as "awful." The companion thread > on the list now, emerging from the discussion of the Hoagland, this > questioning > of the morality of dangerous or hurtful choices, seems to center on the > name of the tennis star, and indeed the argument could be made that here > the unreliable narrator is allowed by his poet to go over the top. But > given > the tennis news alive at the moment, even had he chosen to say Gorgeous > Jones > the reference and effect of sneer would be about the same. This sneer is > part of the disease of the speaker, and who will honestly say it's not a > common > one, a brutality of consciousness that may be traced back through eons > and eons > of the emotional equivalent of the autonomic nervous system (for which > only > Right Action and Mindfulness may serve as effective beta-blockers). > > Huge subject. I'm grateful for the attention it's receiving. > > Barry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com Tue Feb 15 15:59:50 2011 From: robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 15:59:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: References: <4D59A72E.2000800@nut-n-but.net><4D59C173.6030606@nut-n-but.net><4D5A6402.9020506@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <29E937B880E14949B776B13467C700BE@RobinLaptopPC> May be you've got the social class stuff wrong, Robin. These folks are watching a tennis match. They'd be capable of referencing Masterpiece Theater. Yeah, you're right, Mark. I think if I'm going to keep on arguing this, I need to (re)read the poem again a bit more carefully. An obvious problem for me is that the markers are American rather than Brit. So I hit on "Masterpiece Theatre" from the outside -- here, I suppose, the comparable reference would be to the Third Program. Actually, it wouldn't be -- it would be Radio Three. The very act of referring to that particular part of the spectrum as the Third Program would be a generational marker. And I see I unconsciously revised Theater to Theatre. "Please adjust your sematics for ease of convenience." Best, Robin At 01:14 PM 2/15/2011, you wrote: Tad wrote: Hoagland dreamed up a name for Venus Williams that says fairly blatantly, "let's get a good laugh at the expense of these dumb black people who dream up ridiculous names that no civilized person would ever use." Whether or not he puts it in the mouth of a persona, he's still the one that dreamed it up. Actually, I read this differently -- he's trying to think what a dumb red-necked hick would make of Venus Williams' name, and decides that this particular mangle would be characteristic of them. Thus if there's any patronising involved, it's at the expense not of blacks but of red-necks. (My apologies for using the stereotypical weighting around the term "red-neck" -- I'm shorthanding for the sake of economy, and am sure my learned audience can fill in the necessary context.) The mangle itself doesn't bother me -- it's the getting of the mangle wrong that gets up my nose. I'm pretty sure that there are people, probably some blacks as well as some whites, who'd make fun of Venus Williams' name, but I seriously doubt that such a class of folks would have the nous to switch the more familiar term Venus for the less familiar term Aphrodite. Similarly "Masterpiece Theatre" as used in the poem -- folk who sneer at elitist drama don't (I guess) refer to "Masterpiece Theatre". They'd say something (I imagine) like "that pile of crap they broadcast on public radio", and probably follow it up with a complaint about how their tax dollars were being used to pay for tedious shite no sensible person bothers with. Linguistic ineptitude, like referring to Christ as "The Big Wan". "The Big Wan"? "The Big Wan"? Fucks sake jimmy, tell you're a pape. It's The Big Yin. Get it right, or I'll pit the heid on you. {Which, on consideration, goes to show that it might be possible to use the phrase, "The Big Wan", in a poem. It would, however, signal that the speaker was a Glasgow Catholic who for some reason was trying to use Protestant terminology, and thus manages to trip up over the common and affectionate Protestant naming of Christ as "The Big Yin" (The Big One) by substituting the Catholic "wan" for the Protestant "yin" (for SE "one"). It is, I suppose, just barely possible that Hoagland is attempting something of this sort in his poem. As Mark pertinently pointed out earlier in this thread, the distinction between the Lyric I and a fully dramatised persona is never uncomplicated.} The primary obligation on a poet who intends to present a dramatised speaker is to get the language right. It's here that Hoagland (for me) fails pretty abysmally. I shudder to think what would have eventuated if he'd ventured on a AAVE speaker. Prolly made them speak in Ebonics. Robin -------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's not so Philistine to suggest that he might have thought -- do I really want to be that offensive? Is it worth it, for what I'm trying to do with this poem? Perhaps he did think along those lines, and he decided Hell yes, it's worth it. This is an important poem, and I can't write it without using the sort of degrading nickname my buddies and I used to dream up in junior high. Or perhaps he came up with other nicknames that were even worse than this one, and decided, Well, maybe I don't want to go that far. In any case, that sort of self-censorship is part of what we do, or at least part of what we can do, not illegitimately. And of course I'm not saying that any time we think "Maybe I shouldn't do that," we shouldn't do it. If one feels it's really important to write that poem about fucking one's mother, who's to say it's not? On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 10:26 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: Not, I hope, in the sense proposed here. At 10:18 AM 2/15/2011, you wrote: I love Robin's poem. And I even read it. Mark -- isn't self-censorship, of one sort or another, part of everything we do as writers? On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 8:15 AM, Anny Ballardini < anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote: I was always sent to the ... Corner, now that you make me think of it. Guess why. Because at kindergarten I was not able to sleep after lunch. On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: On 2/15/2011 12:39 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: I read every single poem on the Corner. . Aw, that's only because only the best people send work to the . . .Corner. --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss' fragments are like Chekhov's short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain. One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody.[it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com Tue Feb 15 16:07:40 2011 From: robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 16:07:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: References: <4D59A72E.2000800@nut-n-but.net><4D59C173.6030606@nut-n-but.net><4D5A6402.9020506@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <239030FA008949BE8CE82660E97FE2DC@RobinLaptopPC> Robin -it's hard to have it both ways-- to say "this isn't me, this is some redneck I'm making fun of," if I then use language that I would use but the redneck wouldn't. Right, Tad, and that's still one of my major problems with the poem -- whose language is speaking at any particular time? Some of the nuances fit Educated US Liberal Intellectual, some Redneck, some ... So yeah, right, I suppose I have to drag myself back to the poem and scrutinise it again. Or please might I be excused as it's reached the point of linguistic detail and social reference where only a bred in the bone pukka USAmerican of whatever candystripe can provide any useful commentary? Robin ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Mark -- I thought I was going out of my way to make it clear that I wasn't saying what anyone ought to do. On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 2:02 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: May be you've got the social class stuff wrong, Robin. These folks are watching a tennis match. They'd be capable of referencing Masterpiece Theater. At 01:14 PM 2/15/2011, you wrote: Tad wrote: Hoagland dreamed up a name for Venus Williams that says fairly blatantly, "let's get a good laugh at the expense of these dumb black people who dream up ridiculous names that no civilized person would ever use." Whether or not he puts it in the mouth of a persona, he's still the one that dreamed it up. Actually, I read this differently -- he's trying to think what a dumb red-necked hick would make of Venus Williams' name, and decides that this particular mangle would be characteristic of them. Thus if there's any patronising involved, it's at the expense not of blacks but of red-necks. (My apologies for using the stereotypical weighting around the term "red-neck" -- I'm shorthanding for the sake of economy, and am sure my learned audience can fill in the necessary context.) The mangle itself doesn't bother me -- it's the getting of the mangle wrong that gets up my nose. I'm pretty sure that there are people, probably some blacks as well as some whites, who'd make fun of Venus Williams' name, but I seriously doubt that such a class of folks would have the nous to switch the more familiar term Venus for the less familiar term Aphrodite. Similarly "Masterpiece Theatre" as used in the poem -- folk who sneer at elitist drama don't (I guess) refer to "Masterpiece Theatre". They'd say something (I imagine) like "that pile of crap they broadcast on public radio", and probably follow it up with a complaint about how their tax dollars were being used to pay for tedious shite no sensible person bothers with. Linguistic ineptitude, like referring to Christ as "The Big Wan". "The Big Wan"? "The Big Wan"? Fucks sake jimmy, tell you're a pape. It's The Big Yin. Get it right, or I'll pit the heid on you. {Which, on consideration, goes to show that it might be possible to use the phrase, "The Big Wan", in a poem. It would, however, signal that the speaker was a Glasgow Catholic who for some reason was trying to use Protestant terminology, and thus manages to trip up over the common and affectionate Protestant naming of Christ as "The Big Yin" (The Big One) by substituting the Catholic "wan" for the Protestant "yin" (for SE "one"). It is, I suppose, just barely possible that Hoagland is attempting something of this sort in his poem. As Mark pertinently pointed out earlier in this thread, the distinction between the Lyric I and a fully dramatised persona is never uncomplicated.} The primary obligation on a poet who intends to present a dramatised speaker is to get the language right. It's here that Hoagland (for me) fails pretty abysmally. I shudder to think what would have eventuated if he'd ventured on a AAVE speaker. Prolly made them speak in Ebonics. Robin ------------------------------------------------------------------------ It's not so Philistine to suggest that he might have thought -- do I really want to be that offensive? Is it worth it, for what I'm trying to do with this poem? Perhaps he did think along those lines, and he decided Hell yes, it's worth it. This is an important poem, and I can't write it without using the sort of degrading nickname my buddies and I used to dream up in junior high. Or perhaps he came up with other nicknames that were even worse than this one, and decided, Well, maybe I don't want to go that far. In any case, that sort of self-censorship is part of what we do, or at least part of what we can do, not illegitimately. And of course I'm not saying that any time we think "Maybe I shouldn't do that," we shouldn't do it. If one feels it's really important to write that poem about fucking one's mother, who's to say it's not? On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 10:26 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: Not, I hope, in the sense proposed here. At 10:18 AM 2/15/2011, you wrote: I love Robin's poem. And I even read it. Mark -- isn't self-censorship, of one sort or another, part of everything we do as writers? On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 8:15 AM, Anny Ballardini < anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote: I was always sent to the ... Corner, now that you make me think of it. Guess why. Because at kindergarten I was not able to sleep after lunch. On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 12:31 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: On 2/15/2011 12:39 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: I read every single poem on the Corner. . Aw, that's only because only the best people send work to the . . .Corner. --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain? One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody?[it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Feb 15 16:47:43 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 16:47:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject In-Reply-To: References: <2C32EDAC-437E-4681-BC15-94700CDD96D4@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4D5AF47F.3050201@nut-n-but.net> On 2/15/2011 3:53 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > No matter what a writer does, it won't prevent someone > somewhere from being offended, outraged, hurt. It might > even earn one a fatwa. How many people does a writer > have to hurt, wound, offend, before his/her writing > becomes hurtful, wounding, offensive? The answer, I > guess, is one. > And if you think you've not offended anyone, I'll pop up to tell you I find your refusal to offend anyone offensive. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Feb 15 16:56:09 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (Amy King) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 16:56:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship Message-ID: <658x632qufjko8hke0j67ibs.1297806707176@email.android.com> T2ggTWFyaywgdGhlIGpveSwgdGhlIHNpbmNlcml0eSwgdGhlIGxvdmUgeW91IGV4dWRlIGlzIGp1 c3QuLi5pbnNwaXJpbmcuICBObyB3b25kZXIgcGVvcGxlIGxvb2sgdG8geW91IGFzIHN1Y2ggYSBi ZWFjb24gb2YgZW1wYXRoeSBhbmQgdW5kZXJzdGFuZGluZy4gIFlvdSBzaW1wbHkgY2FuJ3QgaGVs cCB5b3Vyc2VsZi4gIE15IHNlbGYgYXdhcmVuZXNzIHBhbGVzIG5leHQgdG8geW91ciBzZWxmbGVz c25lc3MsIGFuZCB5b3UgbmV2ZXIgbWlzcyBhIGNoYW5jZSB0byBpbGx1c3RyYXRlIHRoYXQgZ2Vu ZXJvc2l0eS4gIEJyYXZhIQoKTWFyayBXZWlzcyA8anVuY3Rpb25AZWFydGhsaW5rLm5ldD4gd3Jv dGU6Cgo+R29vZCB0byBrbm93IHRoYXQgeW91J3ZlIGZpZ3VyZWQgdGhpcyBvdXQuIE11c3QgCj5i ZSB0aGUgcmVzdWx0IG9mIGRlY2FkZXMgb2Ygc2VsZi1leGFtaW5hdGlvbiByZXN1bHRpbmcgaW4g dG90YWwgc2VsZi1hd2FyZW5lc3MuCj4KPk15IGNvbmdyYXR1bGF0aW9ucy4KPgo+TWFyawo+Cj4K Pgo+Cj4KPkF0IDAxOjI4IFBNIDIvMTUvMjAxMSwgeW91IHdyb3RlOgo+PklmIHlvdSBkZWNpZGUg bm90IHRvIHVzZSBpdCAoInNlbGYgY2Vuc29yIikgCj4+YmVjYXVzZSB5b3Uga25vdyB5b3VyIHVz ZSB0byBiZSBncmF0dWl0b3VzLCBmb3IgCj4+aW5jZW5kaWFyeSBwdXJwb3Nlcywgb3IganVzdCB0 byBnYXJuZXIgYXR0ZW50aW9uIAo+PmluIHRoZSBjaGVhcGVzdCBwb3NzaWJsZSB3YXksIHRoZW4g cGVyaGFwcyB5b3UgCj4+YXJlIGEgcG9ldC4gIElmIHlvdSB1c2UgaXQgd2l0aG91dCBleGFtaW5p bmcgCj4+eW91ciBvd24gaGVhcnQgKHllcywgSSBlcXVhdGVkICdpbnRlbnQnIHdpdGggCj4+J2hl YXJ0JyksIHRoZW4geW91IGFyZSBubyBwb2V0IC0tIGF0IGFsbC4KPj4KPj5BbXkKPj4KPj5Ob2lz ZSBwcm92ZXMgbm90aGluZy4gT2Z0ZW4gYSBoZW4gd2hvIGhhcyBtZXJlbHkgCj4+bGFpZCBhbiBl Z2cgY2Fja2xlcyBhcyBpZiBzaGUgaGFkIGxhaWQgYW4gYXN0ZXJvaWQuCj4+LSBNYXJrIFR3YWlu Cj4+Cj4+Cj4+KioqKioqKioqCj4+VklEQTogIFdvbWVuIGluIExpdGVyYXJ5IEFydHMKPj4rIDxo dHRwOi8vdmlkYXdlYi5vcmcvYXV0aG9yL2tpbmc+SW50ZXJ2aWV3cwo+Pgo+PkFteSdzIEFsaWFz Cj4+KyA8aHR0cDovL2FteWtpbmcub3JnLz5odHRwOi8vYW15a2luZy5vcmcvCj4+KioqKioqKioK Pj4KPj4KPj4KPj4KPj48aHR0cDovL3VzLnJkLnlhaG9vLmNvbS9ldnQ9NDk5ODEvKmh0dHA6Ly9h ZHZpc2lvbi53ZWJldmVudHMueWFob28uY29tL21haWxiZXRhL2ZlYXR1cmVzX3NwYW0uaHRtbD5T dWNrZXItcHVuY2ggCj4+c3BhbSB3aXRoIGF3YXJkLXdpbm5pbmcgcHJvdGVjdGlvbi4KPj5Ucnkg dGhlIAo+PjxodHRwOi8vdXMucmQueWFob28uY29tL2V2dD00OTk4MS8qaHR0cDovL2FkdmlzaW9u LndlYmV2ZW50cy55YWhvby5jb20vbWFpbGJldGEvZmVhdHVyZXNfc3BhbS5odG1sPmZyZWUgCj4+ WWFob28hIE1haWwgQmV0YS4KPj5fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fXwo+Pk5ldy1Qb2V0cnkgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Cj4+TmV3LVBvZXRyeUB3aXouY2F0 aC52dC5lZHUKPj5odHRwOi8vd2l6LmNhdGgudnQuZWR1L21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbmV3LXBv ZXRyeQo+Cj4KPgo+TmV3IGZyb20gQ2hheCBQcmVzczogTWFyayBXZWlzcywgQXMgTGFuZHNjYXBl Lgo+JDE2LiAgT3JkZXIgZnJvbSBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmNoYXgub3JnL3BvZXRzL3dlaXNzLmh0bQo+ Cj4KPiJXaGF0IGEgYmVhdXRpZnVsIHNldCBvZiBjaXJjdW1zdGFuY2VzISBXaGF0IGEgCj5sb3Zl bHkgY29uY2F0ZW5hdGlvbiBvZiBwYXJ0aWN1bGFycy4gSGVyZSBpcyB0aGUgCj5wb2V0IGFsaXZl IGluIGV2ZXJ5IHNlbnNlIG9mIHRoZSB3b3JkLCBhbmQgCj50aHJvdWdoIGV2ZXJ5IG9uZSBvZiBo aXMgc2Vuc2VzLiBJbnN0ZWFkIG9mIAo+bWlzc2luZyBhIGJlYXQgb3IgYSBwYXJ0LCBXZWlzc8KS IGZyYWdtZW50cyBhcmUgCj5saWtlIENoZWtob3bCknMgc2hvcnQgc3Rvcmllc8KtdGhlIG1vcmUg dGhhdCBnZXRzIAo+bGVmdCBvdXQsIHRoZSBtb3JlIHRoZXkgc2VlbSB0byBjb250YWluwoU+IE9u ZSBjYW4gCj5oZWFyIGVjaG9lcyBmcm9tIGFsbCB0aGUgdmFyaW91cyAKPmFuY2VzdG9ycy4uLlti dXRdIHRoZSB2b2ljZSwgYXQgaXRzIGNlbnRlciwgaXRzIAo+Y29yZSwgaXMgcHVyZSBNYXJrIFdl aXNzLiBIaXMgdXNlIG9mIHRoZSBmcmFnbWVudCAKPmlzIGJvdGggZWxlZ2FudCBhbmQgYmFmZmxp bmdseSBjbGVhciwgYSBwdXJlIAo+bXVzaWNhbCB0aHJlbm9kecKFPltpdF0gb3BlbnMgYSB3aW5k b3csIG5vdCBvbmx5IAo+aW50byBhIG1pbmQsIGJ1dCBhIHBlcnNvbiwgYSBwZXJzb25hbGl0eSwg dGhpcyAKPmh1bWFuIGZpZ3VyZSBhdCB0aGUgZW1vdGlvbmFsIGNlbnRlciBvZiB0aGUgcG9lbS4i Cj4KPk0uRy4gU3RlcGhlbnMsIGluIEphY2tldC4gCj5odHRwOi8vamFja2V0bWFnYXppbmUuY29t LzQwL3Itd2Vpc3MtcmItc3RlcGhlbnMuc2h0bWwKPgo+X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KPk5ldy1Qb2V0cnkgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Cj5OZXctUG9l dHJ5QHdpei5jYXRoLnZ0LmVkdQo+aHR0cDovL3dpei5jYXRoLnZ0LmVkdS9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3Rp bmZvL25ldy1wb2V0cnkK __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Feb 15 17:06:34 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 14:06:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship In-Reply-To: References: <665197501-1297645717-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-630136710-@bda2910.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <1037897703 .965241.1297650225280.JavaMail.root@sz0105a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <4D5AC303.3020509@nut-n-but.net> <348078.57321.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <105744.18789.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Oh Mark, the joy, the sincerity, the love you exude is just...inspiring. No wonder people look to you as such a beacon of empathy and understanding. You simply can't help yourself. My self awareness pales next to your selflessness, and you never miss a chance to illustrate that generosity. Brava! ********* VIDA: Women in Literary Arts + Interviews Amy's Alias + http://amyking.org/ ******** ________________________________ From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry List Sent: Tue, February 15, 2011 2:05:13 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship Good to know that you've figured this out. Must be the result of decades of self-examination resulting in total self-awareness. My congratulations. Mark At 01:28 PM 2/15/2011, you wrote: If you decide not to use it ("self censor") because you know your use to be gratuitous, for incendiary purposes, or just to garner attention in the cheapest possible way, then perhaps you are a poet. If you use it without examining your own heart (yes, I equated 'intent' with 'heart'), then you are no poet -- at all. > >Amy > >Noise proves nothing. Often a hen who has merely laid an egg cackles as if she >had laid an asteroid. >- Mark Twain > > >********* >VIDA: Women in Literary Arts >+ Interviews > >Amy's Alias >+ http://amyking.org/ >******** > > > > >Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. >Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain? One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody?[it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Feb 15 17:07:05 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 14:07:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship In-Reply-To: References: <665197501-1297645717-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-630136710-@bda2910.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>, , , <4D5AC303.3020509@nut-n-but.net>, <348078.57321.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com>, , Message-ID: <502197.96485.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Be careful, Sheila. Don't you know only certain men here are permitted to make proclamations legislating morals and ethics. Or didnt Mark tell you? ********* VIDA: Women in Literary Arts + Interviews Amy's Alias + http://amyking.org/ ******** ________________________________ From: sheila black To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tue, February 15, 2011 2:29:57 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship The heart is a messy place. Certainly one should not be gratuitious entirely--or not in a cynical way--but perhaps one should not conceal the mess either--I think of Sylvia Plath as an example; people tend to love her or hate her depending on how they feel about her often hyberbolic and/or audacious system of comparisons--her craft of the incendiary. ________________________________ Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 14:12:22 -0500 From: tad at opus40.org To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship Bob -- I don't know if my motives are ever that pure or straightforward. But if one thinks in terms of "morally-vigilant liberal friends," one might equally consider that one is putting language just to prove the point that one doesn't self-censor. On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 2:05 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: Good to know that you've figured this out. Must be the result of decades of self-examination resulting in total self-awareness. > >My congratulations. > >Mark > > > > > > >At 01:28 PM 2/15/2011, you wrote: > >If you decide not to use it ("self censor") because you know your use to be >gratuitous, for incendiary purposes, or just to garner attention in the cheapest >possible way, then perhaps you are a poet. If you use it without examining your >own heart (yes, I equated 'intent' with 'heart'), then you are no poet -- at >all. > >> >>Amy >> >>Noise proves nothing. Often a hen who has merely laid an egg cackles as if she >>had laid an asteroid. >>- Mark Twain >> >> >>********* >>VIDA: Women in Literary Arts >>+ Interviews >> >>Amy's Alias >>+ http://amyking.org/ >>******** >> >> >> >> >>Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection. >>Try the free Yahoo! Mail Beta. >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain? One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody?[it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Feb 15 16:59:49 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (Amy King) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 16:59:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship Message-ID: QmUgY2FyZWZ1bCwgU2hlaWxhLiAgRG9uJ3QgeW91IGtub3cgb25seSBjZXJ0YWluIG1lbiBoZXJl IGFyZSBwZXJtaXR0ZWQgdG8gbWFrZSBwcm9jbGFtYXRpb25zIGxlZ2lzbGF0aW5nIG1vcmFscyBh bmQgZXRoaWNzLiAgT3IgZGlkbnQgTWFyayB0ZWxsIHlvdT8KCnNoZWlsYSBibGFjayA8c2hlaWxh ZmJsYWNrQGhvdG1haWwuY29tPiB3cm90ZToKCj4KPlRoZSBoZWFydCBpcyBhIG1lc3N5IHBsYWNl LiAgQ2VydGFpbmx5IG9uZSBzaG91bGQgbm90IGJlIGdyYXR1aXRpb3VzIGVudGlyZWx5LS1vciBu b3QgaW4gYSBjeW5pY2FsIHdheS0tYnV0IHBlcmhhcHMgb25lIHNob3VsZCBub3QgY29uY2VhbCB0 aGUgbWVzcyBlaXRoZXItLUkgdGhpbmsgb2YgU3lsdmlhIFBsYXRoIGFzIGFuIGV4YW1wbGU7IHBl b3BsZSB0ZW5kIHRvIGxvdmUgaGVyIG9yIGhhdGUgaGVyIGRlcGVuZGluZyBvbiBob3cgdGhleSBm ZWVsIGFib3V0ICBoZXIgb2Z0ZW4gaHliZXJib2xpYyBhbmQvb3IgYXVkYWNpb3VzIHN5c3RlbSBv ZiBjb21wYXJpc29ucy0taGVyIGNyYWZ0IG9mIHRoZSBpbmNlbmRpYXJ5Lgo+IAo+Cj4KPkRhdGU6 IFR1ZSwgMTUgRmViIDIwMTEgMTQ6MTI6MjIgLTA1MDAKPkZyb206IHRhZEBvcHVzNDAub3JnCj5U bzogbmV3LXBvZXRyeUB3aXouY2F0aC52dC5lZHUKPlN1YmplY3Q6IFJlOiBbTmV3LVBvZXRyeV0g U2VsZi1DZW5zb3JzaGlwCj4KPkJvYiAtLSBJIGRvbid0IGtub3cgaWYgbXkgbW90aXZlcyBhcmUg ZXZlciB0aGF0IHB1cmUgb3Igc3RyYWlnaHRmb3J3YXJkLiBCdXQgaWYgb25lIHRoaW5rcyBpbiB0 ZXJtcyBvZiAibW9yYWxseS12aWdpbGFudCBsaWJlcmFsIGZyaWVuZHMsIiBvbmUgbWlnaHQgZXF1 YWxseSBjb25zaWRlciB0aGF0IG9uZSBpcyBwdXR0aW5nIGxhbmd1YWdlIGp1c3QgdG8gcHJvdmUg dGhlIHBvaW50IHRoYXQgb25lIGRvZXNuJ3Qgc2VsZi1jZW5zb3IuCj4KPgo+T24gVHVlLCBGZWIg MTUsIDIwMTEgYXQgMjowNSBQTSwgTWFyayBXZWlzcyA8anVuY3Rpb25AZWFydGhsaW5rLm5ldD4g d3JvdGU6Cj4KPgo+R29vZCB0byBrbm93IHRoYXQgeW91J3ZlIGZpZ3VyZWQgdGhpcyBvdXQuIE11 c3QgYmUgdGhlIHJlc3VsdCBvZiBkZWNhZGVzIG9mIHNlbGYtZXhhbWluYXRpb24gcmVzdWx0aW5n IGluIHRvdGFsIHNlbGYtYXdhcmVuZXNzLgo+Cj5NeSBjb25ncmF0dWxhdGlvbnMuCj4KPk1hcmsK Pgo+Cj4KPgo+Cj4KPgo+Cj5BdCAwMToyOCBQTSAyLzE1LzIwMTEsIHlvdSB3cm90ZToKPgo+Cj4K Pgo+SWYgeW91IGRlY2lkZSBub3QgdG8gdXNlIGl0ICgic2VsZiBjZW5zb3IiKSBiZWNhdXNlIHlv dSBrbm93IHlvdXIgdXNlIHRvIGJlIGdyYXR1aXRvdXMsIGZvciBpbmNlbmRpYXJ5IHB1cnBvc2Vz LCBvciBqdXN0IHRvIGdhcm5lciBhdHRlbnRpb24gaW4gdGhlIGNoZWFwZXN0IHBvc3NpYmxlIHdh eSwgdGhlbiBwZXJoYXBzIHlvdSBhcmUgYSBwb2V0LiAgSWYgeW91IHVzZSBpdCB3aXRob3V0IGV4 YW1pbmluZyB5b3VyIG93biBoZWFydCAoeWVzLCBJIGVxdWF0ZWQgJ2ludGVudCcgd2l0aCAnaGVh cnQnKSwgdGhlbiB5b3UgYXJlIG5vIHBvZXQgLS0gYXQgYWxsLiAgCj4gCj5BbXkKPgo+Tm9pc2Ug cHJvdmVzIG5vdGhpbmcuIE9mdGVuIGEgaGVuIHdobyBoYXMgbWVyZWx5IGxhaWQgYW4gZWdnIGNh Y2tsZXMgYXMgaWYgc2hlIGhhZCBsYWlkIGFuIGFzdGVyb2lkLgo+LSBNYXJrIFR3YWluIAo+Cj4K PioqKioqKioqKgo+VklEQTogIFdvbWVuIGluIExpdGVyYXJ5IEFydHMKPisgSW50ZXJ2aWV3cwo+ Cj5BbXkncyBBbGlhcwo+KyBodHRwOi8vYW15a2luZy5vcmcvIAo+KioqKioqKioKPgo+Cj4KPgo+ U3Vja2VyLXB1bmNoIHNwYW0gd2l0aCBhd2FyZC13aW5uaW5nIHByb3RlY3Rpb24uCj5UcnkgdGhl IGZyZWUgWWFob28hIE1haWwgQmV0YS4gCj4KPl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fCj5OZXctUG9ldHJ5IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdAo+TmV3LVBvZXRyeUB3 aXouY2F0aC52dC5lZHUKPmh0dHA6Ly93aXouY2F0aC52dC5lZHUvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9u ZXctcG9ldHJ5Cj4KPgo+Cj5OZXcgZnJvbSBDaGF4IFByZXNzOiBNYXJrIFdlaXNzLCBBcyBMYW5k c2NhcGUuIAo+JDE2LiAgT3JkZXIgZnJvbSBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmNoYXgub3JnL3BvZXRzL3dlaXNz Lmh0bQo+IAo+IAo+IldoYXQgYSBiZWF1dGlmdWwgc2V0IG9mIGNpcmN1bXN0YW5jZXMhIFdoYXQg YSBsb3ZlbHkgY29uY2F0ZW5hdGlvbiBvZiBwYXJ0aWN1bGFycy4gSGVyZSBpcyB0aGUgcG9ldCBh bGl2ZSBpbiBldmVyeSBzZW5zZSBvZiB0aGUgd29yZCwgYW5kIHRocm91Z2ggZXZlcnkgb25lIG9m IGhpcyBzZW5zZXMuIEluc3RlYWQgb2YgbWlzc2luZyBhIGJlYXQgb3IgYSBwYXJ0LCBXZWlzc+KA mSBmcmFnbWVudHMgYXJlIGxpa2UgQ2hla2hvduKAmXMgc2hvcnQgc3Rvcmllc8KtdGhlIG1vcmUg dGhhdCBnZXRzIGxlZnQgb3V0LCB0aGUgbW9yZSB0aGV5IHNlZW0gdG8gY29udGFpbuKApiBPbmUg Y2FuIGhlYXIgZWNob2VzIGZyb20gYWxsIHRoZSB2YXJpb3VzIGFuY2VzdG9ycy4uLltidXRdIHRo ZSB2b2ljZSwgYXQgaXRzIGNlbnRlciwgaXRzIGNvcmUsIGlzIHB1cmUgTWFyayBXZWlzcy4gSGlz IHVzZSBvZiB0aGUgZnJhZ21lbnQgaXMgYm90aCBlbGVnYW50IGFuZCBiYWZmbGluZ2x5IGNsZWFy LCBhIHB1cmUgbXVzaWNhbCB0aHJlbm9keeKApltpdF0gb3BlbnMgYSB3aW5kb3csIG5vdCBvbmx5 IGludG8gYSBtaW5kLCBidXQgYSBwZXJzb24sIGEgcGVyc29uYWxpdHksIHRoaXMgaHVtYW4gZmln dXJlIGF0IHRoZSBlbW90aW9uYWwgY2VudGVyIG9mIHRoZSBwb2VtLiIKPiAKPk0uRy4gU3RlcGhl bnMsIGluIEphY2tldC4gaHR0cDovL2phY2tldG1hZ2F6aW5lLmNvbS80MC9yLXdlaXNzLXJiLXN0 ZXBoZW5zLnNodG1sCj4KPl9fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X19fX19fCj5OZXctUG9ldHJ5IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdAo+TmV3LVBvZXRyeUB3aXouY2F0aC52dC5l ZHUKPmh0dHA6Ly93aXouY2F0aC52dC5lZHUvbWFpbG1hbi9saXN0aW5mby9uZXctcG9ldHJ5Cj4K Pgo+Cj5fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fXyBOZXct UG9ldHJ5IG1haWxpbmcgbGlzdCBOZXctUG9ldHJ5QHdpei5jYXRoLnZ0LmVkdSBodHRwOi8vd2l6 LmNhdGgudnQuZWR1L21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbmV3LXBvZXRyeSAJCSAJICAgCQkgIAo+X19f X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KPk5ldy1Qb2V0cnkg bWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Cj5OZXctUG9ldHJ5QHdpei5jYXRoLnZ0LmVkdQo+aHR0cDovL3dpei5jYXRo LnZ0LmVkdS9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL25ldy1wb2V0cnkK __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From junction at earthlink.net Tue Feb 15 17:17:33 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 17:17:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship In-Reply-To: <105744.18789.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <665197501-1297645717-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-630136710-@bda2910.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <1037897703 .965241.1297650225280.JavaMail.root@sz0105a.westchester.pa.mail.comcast.net> <4D5AC303.3020509@nut-n-but.net> <348078.57321.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <105744.18789.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thank you! At 05:06 PM 2/15/2011, you wrote: >Oh Mark, the joy, the sincerity, the love you >exude is just...inspiring. No wonder people >look to you as such a beacon of empathy and >understanding. You simply can't help >yourself. My self awareness pales next to your >selflessness, and you never miss a chance to >illustrate that generosity. Brava! > >********* >VIDA: Women in Literary Arts >+ Interviews > >Amy's Alias >+ http://amyking.org/ >******** > > > >From: Mark Weiss >To: NewPoetry List >Sent: Tue, February 15, 2011 2:05:13 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship > >Good to know that you've figured this out. Must >be the result of decades of self-examination resulting in total self-awareness. > >My congratulations. > >Mark > > > > > >At 01:28 PM 2/15/2011, you wrote: >>If you decide not to use it ("self censor") >>because you know your use to be gratuitous, for >>incendiary purposes, or just to garner >>attention in the cheapest possible way, then >>perhaps you are a poet. If you use it without >>examining your own heart (yes, I equated >>'intent' with 'heart'), then you are no poet -- at all. >> >>Amy >> >>Noise proves nothing. Often a hen who has >>merely laid an egg cackles as if she had laid an asteroid. >>- Mark Twain >> >> >>********* >>VIDA: Women in Literary Arts >>+ Interviews >> >>Amy's Alias >>+ http://amyking.org/ >>******** >> >> >> >> >>Sucker-punch >>spam with award-winning protection. >>Try the >>free >>Yahoo! Mail Beta. >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > >New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. >$16. Order from >http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm > > >"What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a >lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the >poet alive in every sense of the word, and >through every one of his senses. Instead of >missing a beat or a part, Weiss??? fragments are >like Chekhov???s short stories??the more that >gets left out, the more they seem to contain >One can hear echoes from all the various >ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its >core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the >fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a >pure musical threnody???[it] opens a window, not >only into a mind, but a person, a personality, >this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." > >M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. >http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Feb 15 17:23:32 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (Amy King) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 17:23:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship Message-ID: No, thank you! You never fail in that oh-so-classic way... Mark Weiss wrote: >Thank you! > >At 05:06 PM 2/15/2011, you wrote: > >>Oh Mark, the joy, the sincerity, the love you >>exude is just...inspiring. No wonder people >>look to you as such a beacon of empathy and >>understanding. You simply can't help >>yourself. My self awareness pales next to your >>selflessness, and you never miss a chance to >>illustrate that generosity. Brava! >> >>********* >>VIDA: Women in Literary Arts >>+ Interviews >> >>Amy's Alias >>+ http://amyking.org/ >>******** >> >> >> >>From: Mark Weiss >>To: NewPoetry List >>Sent: Tue, February 15, 2011 2:05:13 PM >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship >> >>Good to know that you've figured this out. Must >>be the result of decades of self-examination resulting in total self-awareness. >> >>My congratulations. >> >>Mark >> >> >> >> >> >>At 01:28 PM 2/15/2011, you wrote: >>>If you decide not to use it ("self censor") >>>because you know your use to be gratuitous, for >>>incendiary purposes, or just to garner >>>attention in the cheapest possible way, then >>>perhaps you are a poet. If you use it without >>>examining your own heart (yes, I equated >>>'intent' with 'heart'), then you are no poet -- at all. >>> >>>Amy >>> >>>Noise proves nothing. Often a hen who has >>>merely laid an egg cackles as if she had laid an asteroid. >>>- Mark Twain >>> >>> >>>********* >>>VIDA: Women in Literary Arts >>>+ Interviews >>> >>>Amy's Alias >>>+ http://amyking.org/ >>>******** >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Sucker-punch >>>spam with award-winning protection. >>>Try the >>>free >>>Yahoo! Mail Beta. >>>_______________________________________________ >>>New-Poetry mailing list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >>New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. >>$16. Order from >>http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm >> >> >>"What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a >>lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the >>poet alive in every sense of the word, and >>through every one of his senses. Instead of >>missing a beat or a part, Weiss??? fragments are >>like Chekhov???s short stories??the more that >>gets left out, the more they seem to contain > >>One can hear echoes from all the various >>ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its >>core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the >>fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a >>pure musical threnody???[it] opens a window, not >>only into a mind, but a person, a personality, >>this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." >> >>M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. >>http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > >New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. >$16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm > > >"What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a >lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the >poet alive in every sense of the word, and >through every one of his senses. Instead of >missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are >like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets >left out, the more they seem to contain > One can >hear echoes from all the various >ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its >core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment >is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure >musical threnody >[it] opens a window, not only >into a mind, but a person, a personality, this >human figure at the emotional center of the poem." > >M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. >http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com Tue Feb 15 17:41:16 2011 From: robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 17:41:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <77D9A4B22F3B4D46AB96DD02F1AF67C2@RobinLaptopPC> I really like this poem, Amy! Deeply polyglot, and wholly inoffensve. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Amy King" To: "NewPoetry List" Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 4:59 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship > QmUgY2FyZWZ1bCwgU2hlaWxhLiAgRG9uJ3QgeW91IGtub3cgb25seSBjZXJ0YWluIG1lbiBoZXJl > IGFyZSBwZXJtaXR0ZWQgdG8gbWFrZSBwcm9jbGFtYXRpb25zIGxlZ2lzbGF0aW5nIG1vcmFscyBh > bmQgZXRoaWNzLiAgT3IgZGlkbnQgTWFyayB0ZWxsIHlvdT8KCnNoZWlsYSBibGFjayA8c2hlaWxh > ZmJsYWNrQGhvdG1haWwuY29tPiB3cm90ZToKCj4KPlRoZSBoZWFydCBpcyBhIG1lc3N5IHBsYWNl > LiAgQ2VydGFpbmx5IG9uZSBzaG91bGQgbm90IGJlIGdyYXR1aXRpb3VzIGVudGlyZWx5LS1vciBu > b3QgaW4gYSBjeW5pY2FsIHdheS0tYnV0IHBlcmhhcHMgb25lIHNob3VsZCBub3QgY29uY2VhbCB0 From halvard at gmail.com Tue Feb 15 17:54:05 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 16:54:05 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship In-Reply-To: <658x632qufjko8hke0j67ibs.1297806707176@email.android.com> References: <658x632qufjko8hke0j67ibs.1297806707176@email.android.com> Message-ID: Just as I thought. "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home *Mainly Black , **Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ;* *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; * ***Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; * ***G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 3:56 PM, Amy King wrote: > > T2ggTWFyaywgdGhlIGpveSwgdGhlIHNpbmNlcml0eSwgdGhlIGxvdmUgeW91IGV4dWRlIGlzIGp1 > > c3QuLi5pbnNwaXJpbmcuICBObyB3b25kZXIgcGVvcGxlIGxvb2sgdG8geW91IGFzIHN1Y2ggYSBi > > ZWFjb24gb2YgZW1wYXRoeSBhbmQgdW5kZXJzdGFuZGluZy4gIFlvdSBzaW1wbHkgY2FuJ3QgaGVs > > cCB5b3Vyc2VsZi4gIE15IHNlbGYgYXdhcmVuZXNzIHBhbGVzIG5leHQgdG8geW91ciBzZWxmbGVz > > c25lc3MsIGFuZCB5b3UgbmV2ZXIgbWlzcyBhIGNoYW5jZSB0byBpbGx1c3RyYXRlIHRoYXQgZ2Vu > > ZXJvc2l0eS4gIEJyYXZhIQoKTWFyayBXZWlzcyA8anVuY3Rpb25AZWFydGhsaW5rLm5ldD4gd3Jv > > dGU6Cgo+R29vZCB0byBrbm93IHRoYXQgeW91J3ZlIGZpZ3VyZWQgdGhpcyBvdXQuIE11c3QgCj5i > > ZSB0aGUgcmVzdWx0IG9mIGRlY2FkZXMgb2Ygc2VsZi1leGFtaW5hdGlvbiByZXN1bHRpbmcgaW4g > > dG90YWwgc2VsZi1hd2FyZW5lc3MuCj4KPk15IGNvbmdyYXR1bGF0aW9ucy4KPgo+TWFyawo+Cj4K > > Pgo+Cj4KPkF0IDAxOjI4IFBNIDIvMTUvMjAxMSwgeW91IHdyb3RlOgo+PklmIHlvdSBkZWNpZGUg > > bm90IHRvIHVzZSBpdCAoInNlbGYgY2Vuc29yIikgCj4+YmVjYXVzZSB5b3Uga25vdyB5b3VyIHVz > > ZSB0byBiZSBncmF0dWl0b3VzLCBmb3IgCj4+aW5jZW5kaWFyeSBwdXJwb3Nlcywgb3IganVzdCB0 > > byBnYXJuZXIgYXR0ZW50aW9uIAo+PmluIHRoZSBjaGVhcGVzdCBwb3NzaWJsZSB3YXksIHRoZW4g > > cGVyaGFwcyB5b3UgCj4+YXJlIGEgcG9ldC4gIElmIHlvdSB1c2UgaXQgd2l0aG91dCBleGFtaW5p > > bmcgCj4+eW91ciBvd24gaGVhcnQgKHllcywgSSBlcXVhdGVkICdpbnRlbnQnIHdpdGggCj4+J2hl > > YXJ0JyksIHRoZW4geW91IGFyZSBubyBwb2V0IC0tIGF0IGFsbC4KPj4KPj5BbXkKPj4KPj5Ob2lz > > ZSBwcm92ZXMgbm90aGluZy4gT2Z0ZW4gYSBoZW4gd2hvIGhhcyBtZXJlbHkgCj4+bGFpZCBhbiBl > > Z2cgY2Fja2xlcyBhcyBpZiBzaGUgaGFkIGxhaWQgYW4gYXN0ZXJvaWQuCj4+LSBNYXJrIFR3YWlu > > Cj4+Cj4+Cj4+KioqKioqKioqCj4+VklEQTogIFdvbWVuIGluIExpdGVyYXJ5IEFydHMKPj4rIDxo > > dHRwOi8vdmlkYXdlYi5vcmcvYXV0aG9yL2tpbmc+SW50ZXJ2aWV3cwo+Pgo+PkFteSdzIEFsaWFz > > Cj4+KyA8aHR0cDovL2FteWtpbmcub3JnLz5odHRwOi8vYW15a2luZy5vcmcvCj4+KioqKioqKioK > > Pj4KPj4KPj4KPj4KPj48aHR0cDovL3VzLnJkLnlhaG9vLmNvbS9ldnQ9NDk5ODEvKmh0dHA6Ly9h > > ZHZpc2lvbi53ZWJldmVudHMueWFob28uY29tL21haWxiZXRhL2ZlYXR1cmVzX3NwYW0uaHRtbD5T > > dWNrZXItcHVuY2ggCj4+c3BhbSB3aXRoIGF3YXJkLXdpbm5pbmcgcHJvdGVjdGlvbi4KPj5Ucnkg > > dGhlIAo+PjxodHRwOi8vdXMucmQueWFob28uY29tL2V2dD00OTk4MS8qaHR0cDovL2FkdmlzaW9u > > LndlYmV2ZW50cy55YWhvby5jb20vbWFpbGJldGEvZmVhdHVyZXNfc3BhbS5odG1sPmZyZWUgCj4+ > > WWFob28hIE1haWwgQmV0YS4KPj5fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f > > X19fX19fX19fXwo+Pk5ldy1Qb2V0cnkgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Cj4+TmV3LVBvZXRyeUB3aXouY2F0 > > aC52dC5lZHUKPj5odHRwOi8vd2l6LmNhdGgudnQuZWR1L21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbmV3LXBv > > ZXRyeQo+Cj4KPgo+TmV3IGZyb20gQ2hheCBQcmVzczogTWFyayBXZWlzcywgQXMgTGFuZHNjYXBl > > Lgo+JDE2LiAgT3JkZXIgZnJvbSBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmNoYXgub3JnL3BvZXRzL3dlaXNzLmh0bQo+ > > Cj4KPiJXaGF0IGEgYmVhdXRpZnVsIHNldCBvZiBjaXJjdW1zdGFuY2VzISBXaGF0IGEgCj5sb3Zl > > bHkgY29uY2F0ZW5hdGlvbiBvZiBwYXJ0aWN1bGFycy4gSGVyZSBpcyB0aGUgCj5wb2V0IGFsaXZl > > IGluIGV2ZXJ5IHNlbnNlIG9mIHRoZSB3b3JkLCBhbmQgCj50aHJvdWdoIGV2ZXJ5IG9uZSBvZiBo > > aXMgc2Vuc2VzLiBJbnN0ZWFkIG9mIAo+bWlzc2luZyBhIGJlYXQgb3IgYSBwYXJ0LCBXZWlzc8KS > > IGZyYWdtZW50cyBhcmUgCj5saWtlIENoZWtob3bCknMgc2hvcnQgc3Rvcmllc8KtdGhlIG1vcmUg > > dGhhdCBnZXRzIAo+bGVmdCBvdXQsIHRoZSBtb3JlIHRoZXkgc2VlbSB0byBjb250YWluwoU+IE9u > > ZSBjYW4gCj5oZWFyIGVjaG9lcyBmcm9tIGFsbCB0aGUgdmFyaW91cyAKPmFuY2VzdG9ycy4uLlti > > dXRdIHRoZSB2b2ljZSwgYXQgaXRzIGNlbnRlciwgaXRzIAo+Y29yZSwgaXMgcHVyZSBNYXJrIFdl > > aXNzLiBIaXMgdXNlIG9mIHRoZSBmcmFnbWVudCAKPmlzIGJvdGggZWxlZ2FudCBhbmQgYmFmZmxp > > bmdseSBjbGVhciwgYSBwdXJlIAo+bXVzaWNhbCB0aHJlbm9kecKFPltpdF0gb3BlbnMgYSB3aW5k > > b3csIG5vdCBvbmx5IAo+aW50byBhIG1pbmQsIGJ1dCBhIHBlcnNvbiwgYSBwZXJzb25hbGl0eSwg > > dGhpcyAKPmh1bWFuIGZpZ3VyZSBhdCB0aGUgZW1vdGlvbmFsIGNlbnRlciBvZiB0aGUgcG9lbS4i > > Cj4KPk0uRy4gU3RlcGhlbnMsIGluIEphY2tldC4gCj5odHRwOi8vamFja2V0bWFnYXppbmUuY29t > > LzQwL3Itd2Vpc3MtcmItc3RlcGhlbnMuc2h0bWwKPgo+X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f > > X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KPk5ldy1Qb2V0cnkgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Cj5OZXctUG9l > > dHJ5QHdpei5jYXRoLnZ0LmVkdQo+aHR0cDovL3dpei5jYXRoLnZ0LmVkdS9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3Rp > bmZvL25ldy1wb2V0cnkK > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Feb 15 17:54:25 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (Amy King) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 17:54:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship Message-ID: SXQgd2FzIHZlcnkgdGhlcmFwZXV0aWMgdG8gYm9vdCEgIFByb2JhYmx5IGlsbHVzdHJhdGVzIHNv bWV0aGluZyBvZiBteSBwc3ljaGUgdG9kYXkuCgpSb2JpbiBIYW1pbHRvbiA8cm9iaW4uaGFtaWx0 b24zQHZpcmdpbm1lZGlhLmNvbT4gd3JvdGU6Cgo+SSByZWFsbHkgbGlrZSB0aGlzIHBvZW0sIEFt eSEKPgo+RGVlcGx5IHBvbHlnbG90LCBhbmQgd2hvbGx5IGlub2ZmZW5zdmUuCj4KPlJvYmluCj4K Pi0tLS0tIE9yaWdpbmFsIE1lc3NhZ2UgLS0tLS0gCj5Gcm9tOiAiQW15IEtpbmciIDxhbXloYXBw ZW5zQHlhaG9vLmNvbT4KPlRvOiAiTmV3UG9ldHJ5IExpc3QiIDxuZXctcG9ldHJ5QHdpei5jYXRo LnZ0LmVkdT4KPlNlbnQ6IFR1ZXNkYXksIEZlYnJ1YXJ5IDE1LCAyMDExIDQ6NTkgUE0KPlN1Ympl Y3Q6IFJlOiBbTmV3LVBvZXRyeV0gU2VsZi1DZW5zb3JzaGlwCj4KPgo+PiBRbVVnWTJGeVpXWjFi Q3dnVTJobGFXeGhMaUFnUkc5dUozUWdlVzkxSUd0dWIzY2diMjVzZVNCalpYSjBZV2x1SUcxbGJp Qm9aWEpsCj4+IElHRnlaU0J3WlhKdGFYUjBaV1FnZEc4Z2JXRnJaU0J3Y205amJHRnRZWFJwYjI1 eklHeGxaMmx6YkdGMGFXNW5JRzF2Y21Gc2N5QmgKPj4gYm1RZ1pYUm9hV056TGlBZ1QzSWdaR2xr Ym5RZ1RXRnlheUIwWld4c0lIbHZkVDhLQ25Ob1pXbHNZU0JpYkdGamF5QThjMmhsYVd4aAo+PiBa bUpzWVdOclFHaHZkRzFoYVd3dVkyOXRQaUIzY205MFpUb0tDajRLUGxSb1pTQm9aV0Z5ZENCcGN5 QmhJRzFsYzNONUlIQnNZV05sCj4+IExpQWdRMlZ5ZEdGcGJteDVJRzl1WlNCemFHOTFiR1FnYm05 MElHSmxJR2R5WVhSMWFYUnBiM1Z6SUdWdWRHbHlaV3g1TFMxdmNpQnUKPj4gYjNRZ2FXNGdZU0Jq ZVc1cFkyRnNJSGRoZVMwdFluVjBJSEJsY21oaGNITWdiMjVsSUhOb2IzVnNaQ0J1YjNRZ1kyOXVZ MlZoYkNCMCAKPgo+X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19f X18KPk5ldy1Qb2V0cnkgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Cj5OZXctUG9ldHJ5QHdpei5jYXRoLnZ0LmVkdQo+ aHR0cDovL3dpei5jYXRoLnZ0LmVkdS9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3RpbmZvL25ldy1wb2V0cnkK __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com From junction at earthlink.net Tue Feb 15 17:57:54 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 17:57:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Difficult to sustain irony, I guess. Mark the non-poet At 05:23 PM 2/15/2011, you wrote: >No, thank you! You never fail in that >oh-so-classic way... Mark Weiss > wrote: >Thank >you! > >At 05:06 PM 2/15/2011, you wrote: > >>Oh >Mark, the joy, the sincerity, the love >you >>exude is just...inspiring. No wonder >people >>look to you as such a beacon of empathy >and >>understanding. You simply can't >help >>yourself. My self awareness pales next >to your >>selflessness, and you never miss a >chance to >>illustrate that >generosity. Brava! >> >>********* >>VIDA: >Women in Literary Arts >>+ >Interviews >> >>A >my's Alias >>+ >http://amyking.org/ >>****** >** >> >> >> >>From: Mark Weiss > >>To: NewPoetry List > >>Sent: Tue, >February 15, 2011 2:05:13 PM >>Subject: Re: >[New-Poetry] Self-Censorship >> >>Good to know >that you've figured this out. Must >>be the >result of decades of self-examination resulting >in total self-awareness. >> >>My >congratulations. >> >>Mark >> >> >> >> >> >>At >01:28 PM 2/15/2011, you wrote: >>>If you decide >not to use it ("self censor") >>>because you >know your use to be gratuitous, >for >>>incendiary purposes, or just to >garner >>>attention in the cheapest possible >way, then >>>perhaps you are a poet. If you use >it without >>>examining your own heart (yes, I >equated >>>'intent' with 'heart'), then you are >no poet -- at all. >>> >>>Amy >>> >>>Noise >proves nothing. Often a hen who has >>>merely >laid an egg cackles as if she had laid an >asteroid. >>>- Mark >Twain >>> >>> >>>********* >>>VIDA: Women in >Literary Arts >>>+ >Interviews >>> >> > >Amy's Alias >>>+ >http://amyking.org/ >>>***** >*** >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>t=49981/*http://advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html>Sucker-punch > >>>spam with award-winning protection. >>>Try >the >>>advision.webevents.yahoo.com/mailbeta/features_spam.html>free > >>>Yahoo! Mail >Beta. >>>________________________________________ >_______ >>>New-Poetry mailing >list >>>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> >> >> >>New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As >Landscape. >>$16. Order >from >>http: >//www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm >> >> >>"What a >beautiful set of circumstances! What a >>lovely >concatenation of particulars. Here is the >>poet >alive in every sense of the word, and >>through >every one of his senses. Instead of >>missing a >beat or a part, Weiss?????? fragments are >>like >Chekhov??????s short stories????the more >that >>gets left out, the more they seem to >contain? > >>One can hear echoes from all the >various >>ancestors...[but] the voice, at its >center, its >>core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use >of the >>fragment is both elegant and bafflingly >clear, a >>pure musical threnody??????[it] opens >a window, not >>only into a mind, but a person, >a personality, >>this human figure at the >emotional center of the poem." >> >>M.G. >Stephens, in >Jacket. >>b-stephens.shtml>http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml > >> >>___________________________________________ >____ >>New-Poetry mailing >list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.ca >th.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > >New >from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As >Landscape. >$16. Order from >http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm > > >"What a >beautiful set of circumstances! What a >lovely >concatenation of particulars. Here is the >poet >alive in every sense of the word, and >through >every one of his senses. Instead of >missing a >beat or a part, Weiss?? fragments are >like >Chekhov??s short stories??the more that >gets >left out, the more they seem to contain? > >One can >hear echoes from all the >various >ancestors...[but] the voice, at its >center, its >core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use >of the fragment >is both elegant and bafflingly >clear, a pure >musical threnody? >[it] opens a >window, not only >into a mind, but a person, a >personality, this >human figure at the emotional >center of the poem." > >M.G. Stephens, in >Jacket. >http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb- >stephens.shtml > >_______________________________ >________________ >New-Poetry mailing >list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath >.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry New from Chax Press: Mark Weiss, As Landscape. $16. Order from http://www.chax.org/poets/weiss.htm "What a beautiful set of circumstances! What a lovely concatenation of particulars. Here is the poet alive in every sense of the word, and through every one of his senses. Instead of missing a beat or a part, Weiss? fragments are like Chekhov?s short stories?the more that gets left out, the more they seem to contain One can hear echoes from all the various ancestors...[but] the voice, at its center, its core, is pure Mark Weiss. His use of the fragment is both elegant and bafflingly clear, a pure musical threnody [it] opens a window, not only into a mind, but a person, a personality, this human figure at the emotional center of the poem." M.G. Stephens, in Jacket. http://jacketmagazine.com/40/r-weiss-rb-stephens.shtml -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Feb 15 18:05:47 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 18:05:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship In-Reply-To: <77D9A4B22F3B4D46AB96DD02F1AF67C2@RobinLaptopPC> References: <77D9A4B22F3B4D46AB96DD02F1AF67C2@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4D5B06CB.1010901@nut-n-but.net> On 2/15/2011 5:41 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > I really like this poem, Amy! > > Deeply polyglot, and wholly inoffensve. > > Robin Are you crazy, Robin?! It's a deeply offensive attack on cryptographic poets. As one such--the only such, in fact . . . wait, since only .04% of my poems are crytographic, I'm only .04% a cryptographic poet, hence my minority is the smallest one in existence. I shudder to think how much my lawyer is going to demand. Ana aka 2.15.2 From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Feb 15 18:07:38 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (Amy King) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 18:07:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship Message-ID: Bob, I thought that .04 applied to a different measure of your manhood. I mean, poethood. What a weird coincidence. You'll need more than a lawyer to alter this tiny representation! Bob Grumman wrote: >On 2/15/2011 5:41 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote: >> I really like this poem, Amy! >> >> Deeply polyglot, and wholly inoffensve. >> >> Robin >Are you crazy, Robin?! It's a deeply offensive attack on cryptographic >poets. As one such--the only such, in fact . . . wait, since only .04% >of my poems are crytographic, I'm only .04% a cryptographic poet, hence >my minority is the smallest one in existence. I shudder to think how >much my lawyer is going to demand. > >Ana aka 2.15.2 >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Feb 15 18:10:44 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 15:10:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship In-Reply-To: <77D9A4B22F3B4D46AB96DD02F1AF67C2@RobinLaptopPC> References: <77D9A4B22F3B4D46AB96DD02F1AF67C2@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <617680.10221.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> It was very therapeutic to boot! Probably illustrates something of my psyche today. ________________________________ From: Robin Hamilton To: NewPoetry List Sent: Tue, February 15, 2011 5:41:16 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship I really like this poem, Amy! Deeply polyglot, and wholly inoffensve. Robin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com Tue Feb 15 18:13:37 2011 From: robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 18:13:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship In-Reply-To: <4D5B06CB.1010901@nut-n-but.net> References: <77D9A4B22F3B4D46AB96DD02F1AF67C2@RobinLaptopPC> <4D5B06CB.1010901@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <3EAB97DBE8D14AB6874A1274C2718593@RobinLaptopPC> Bob, I find your claim to be the only cryptographic poet in existence Deeply Offensive. There were some quite seriously cryptographic elements in my _Notebook for the Beautiful and the Damned of This Present Age_ (it wasn't just tufu Glasgow concrete). Unfortunately, for reasons of I know not what, possibly typographical exigencies, they failed to be included in the published version (Bran's Head, early seventies). Someday I intend to (probably self-)publish a Second Edition of this, with the excised portions reinstated. Meanwhile, and simply to keep the historical record straight, I have retained a Famous New York Copyright Infringement Lawyer (acting, naturally, pro bono) to sue the boots off you for Trademark Violation. Yrs for the Incendarists. Robin ______________________________ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry List" Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2011 6:05 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship > On 2/15/2011 5:41 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote: >> I really like this poem, Amy! >> >> Deeply polyglot, and wholly inoffensve. >> >> Robin > Are you crazy, Robin?! It's a deeply offensive attack on cryptographic > poets. As one such--the only such, in fact . . . wait, since only .04% of > my poems are crytographic, I'm only .04% a cryptographic poet, hence my > minority is the smallest one in existence. I shudder to think how much my > lawyer is going to demand. > > Ana aka 2.15.2 > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Feb 15 18:20:04 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 15:20:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship In-Reply-To: <4D5B06CB.1010901@nut-n-but.net> References: <77D9A4B22F3B4D46AB96DD02F1AF67C2@RobinLaptopPC> <4D5B06CB.1010901@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <531283.51505.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Bob, I thought that .04 applied to another, different measure of your "minority," "the smallest one in existence." No wonder you're shuddering! You'll need more than a lawyer to increase this tiny representation! Or "compensate" for, at least... ________________________________ From: Bob Grumman On 2/15/2011 5:41 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > I really like this poem, Amy! > > Deeply polyglot, and wholly inoffensve. > > Robin Are you crazy, Robin?! It's a deeply offensive attack on cryptographic poets. As one such--the only such, in fact . . . wait, since only .04% of my poems are crytographic, I'm only .04% a cryptographic poet, hence my minority is the smallest one in existence. I shudder to think how much my lawyer is going to demand. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Feb 15 19:10:18 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 19:10:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D5B15EA.30003@nut-n-but.net> On 2/15/2011 6:07 PM, Amy King wrote: > Bob, I thought that .04 applied to a different measure of your manhood. I mean, poethood. What a weird coincidence. You'll need more than a lawyer to alter this tiny representation! Finnegan!!!!! Wanh!! --Bobby From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Feb 15 19:18:09 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 19:18:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship In-Reply-To: <3EAB97DBE8D14AB6874A1274C2718593@RobinLaptopPC> References: <77D9A4B22F3B4D46AB96DD02F1AF67C2@RobinLaptopPC><4D5B06CB.1 010901@nut-n-but.net> <3EAB97DBE8D14AB6874A1274C2718593@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4D5B17C1.10801@nut-n-but.net> On 2/15/2011 6:13 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > Bob, > > I find your claim to be the only cryptographic poet in existence > Deeply Offensive. > > There were some quite seriously cryptographic elements in my _Notebook > for the Beautiful and the Damned of This Present Age_ (it wasn't just > tufu Glasgow concrete). Seriously, Robin, are you serious? I'd love to hear more. The history of cryptographic poetry is ten times more important than this discussion of Hoagland's poem. I don't know of any poems using cryptography but am sure there have been poems written in code. My main interest is in those in which the coding was essential to the aesthetic effect of the poem although I'm much interested in any use of coding in poems. Haven't gotten around to researching it, though. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Feb 15 19:21:02 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 19:21:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship In-Reply-To: <531283.51505.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <77D9A4B22F3B4D46AB96DD02F1AF67C2@RobinLaptopPC><4D5B06CB.1 010901@nut-n-but.net> <531283.51505.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D5B186E.60300@nut-n-but.net> On 2/15/2011 6:20 PM, amy king wrote: > Bob, I thought that .04 applied to another, different measure of > your "minority," "the smallest one in existence." No wonder you're > shuddering! You'll need more than a lawyer to increase this tiny > representation! Or "compensate" for, at least... . Lord love a duck and double wanh, the woman is still at it. --Bobby -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Tue Feb 15 19:22:02 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 19:22:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Michael Gottlieb's memoir/essay Message-ID: <8CD9B86AAF898EB-40C-7A04@webmail-m058.sysops.aol.com> http://www.forward.com/articles/135413/ MEMOIR AND ESSAY By Michael Gottlieb Faux Press, 170 pages $16 Poets of the Language School (aka the L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E group, tendency, faction or sociological phenomena ? the occasionally rancorous debate continues) have risen to become the dominant avant-garde of modern American poetics. The first generation (including Charles Bernstein, Ron Silliman, Barrett Watten, Bruce Andrews, Lyn Hejinian, Tom Mandel and James Sherry), now in their 50s and 60s, are now the oldest generation of teaching poets, and their influence constitutes a formal problem with which any practicing young American poet must grapple. Loosely grouped around the eponymous L=A=N=G=U=A=G=E magazine.. = -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Feb 15 19:24:11 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 16:24:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship In-Reply-To: <4D5B186E.60300@nut-n-but.net> References: <77D9A4B22F3B4D46AB96DD02F1AF67C2@RobinLaptopPC><4D5B06CB.1 010901@nut-n-but.net> <531283.51505.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4D5B186E.60300@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <772924.28116.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Oh noooo!! Harassment!! How can *you* take it? Not to worry, the woman is leaving her cauldron. For just a bit! ________________________________ From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry List Sent: Tue, February 15, 2011 7:21:02 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship On 2/15/2011 6:20 PM, amy king wrote: Bob, I thought that .04 applied to another, different measure of your "minority," "the smallest one in existence." No wonder you're shuddering! You'll need more than a lawyer to increase this tiny representation! Or "compensate" for, at least... > . Lord love a duck and double wanh, the woman is still at it. --Bobby -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com Tue Feb 15 21:24:10 2011 From: robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 21:24:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship In-Reply-To: <4D5B17C1.10801@nut-n-but.net> References: <77D9A4B22F3B4D46AB96DD02F1AF67C2@RobinLaptopPC><4D5B06CB.1010901@nut-n-but.net><3EAB97DBE8D14AB6874A1274C2718593@RobinLaptopPC> <4D5B17C1.10801@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4D5BB3DA57FE41559D8B793FDA1D51B9@RobinLaptopPC> >> There were some quite seriously cryptographic elements in my _Notebook >> for the Beautiful and the Damned of This Present Age_ (it wasn't just >> tufu Glasgow concrete). > > > Seriously, Robin, are you serious? I'd love to hear more. The history of > cryptographic poetry is ten times more important than this discussion of > Hoagland's poem. Semi-serious, Bob -- there were faint echoes of cryptography there, though most of the focus was on information systems. Maybe even a few poems that in a simpler or primitive way parallelled or foreshadowed your Mathematiku. And most of the bits that would interest you most were in the parts that (as I said) weren't published. Also, insofar as the collection was doing this, it was mostly doing it analogically rather than directly. Computers as metaphors, before I decided that angels were in fact more satisfactory. Anyway, I'll send you a text + the Unpublished Bits when I get back home in a couple of weeks time, and you can see what you think. Have I really not shown you this already, or have I done so and you've forgotten? The composition of the texts dates from the late sixties/early seventies, though they weren't, most of them, published till maybe ten years later, by which time the world had moved on. There may also have been some influence from Edwin Morgan's strategies in _Interferences_, or it might just have been something in the air at the time. There was a rumour, that I've never been sure about, that Eddie's "Loch Ness Monster's Song" was actually decodeable, which would make it an echt cryptographic poem. Also possibly his "The Computer's First Christmas Card". But, novels rather than poetry, have you come across the work of Neil Stephenson? Especially _Cryptomomicon_, but elsewhere in his work as well? He does I think go beyond cryptography-as-a-(simple)-metaphor in his work, and is seriously backgrounded in the details of cryptoanalysis and that. Robin _____________________________________ > I don't know of any poems using cryptography but am sure there have been > poems written in code. My main interest is in those in which the coding > was essential to the aesthetic effect of the poem although I'm much > interested in any use of coding in poems. Haven't gotten around to > researching it, though. > > --Bob From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Feb 15 22:03:58 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 22:03:58 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship Message-ID: <96a35.7d1403a.3a8c989e@cs.com> In a message dated 2/15/2011 5:09:33 PM Central Standard Time, halvard at gmail.com writes: > > > Just as I thought. > > > > "What does a poet need an unlisted > number for?" > --George Costanza > > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and > Other Sonnets; > Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; > Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; > G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; > Transparencies &Projections > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 3:56 PM, Amy King wrote: > >> >> T2ggTWFyaywgdGhlIGpveSwgdGhlIHNpbmNlcml0eSwgdGhlIGxvdmUgeW91IGV4dWRlIGlzIGp1 >> c3QuLi5pbnNwaXJpbmcuICBObyB3b25kZXIgcGVvcGxlIGxvb2sgdG8geW91IGFzIHN1Y2ggYS >> Bi >> ZWFjb24gb2YgZW1wYXRoeSBhbmQgdW5kZXJzdGFuZGluZy4gIFlvdSBzaW1wbHkgY2FuJ3QgaG >> Vs >> cCB5b3Vyc2VsZi4gIE15IHNlbGYgYXdhcmVuZXNzIHBhbGVzIG5leHQgdG8geW91ciBzZWxmbG >> Vz >> c25lc3MsIGFuZCB5b3UgbmV2ZXIgbWlzcyBhIGNoYW5jZSB0byBpbGx1c3RyYXRlIHRoYXQgZ2 >> Vu >> ZXJvc2l0eS4gIEJyYXZhIQoKTWFyayBXZWlzcyA8anVuY3Rpb25AZWFydGhsaW5rLm5ldD4gd3 >> Jv >> dGU6Cgo+R29vZCB0byBrbm93IHRoYXQgeW91J3ZlIGZpZ3VyZWQgdGhpcyBvdXQuIE11c3QgCj >> 5i >> ZSB0aGUgcmVzdWx0IG9mIGRlY2FkZXMgb2Ygc2VsZi1leGFtaW5hdGl >> vbiByZXN1bHRpbmcgaW4g >> dG90YWwgc2VsZi1hd2FyZW5lc3MuCj4KPk15IGNvbmdyYXR1bGF0aW9ucy4KPgo+TWFyawo+Cj >> 4K >> Pgo+Cj4KPkF0IDAxOjI4IFBNIDIvMTUvMjAxMSwgeW91IHdyb3RlOgo+PklmIHlvdSBkZWNpZG >> Ug >> bm90IHRvIHVzZSBpdCAoInNlbGYgY2Vuc29yIikgCj4+YmVjYXVzZSB5b3Uga25vdyB5b3VyIH >> Vz >> ZSB0byBiZSBncmF0dWl0b3VzLCBmb3IgCj4+aW5jZW5kaWFyeSBwdXJwb3Nlcywgb3IganVzdC >> B0 >> byBnYXJuZXIgYXR0ZW50aW9uIAo+PmluIHRoZSBjaGVhcGVzdCBwb3NzaWJsZSB3YXksIHRoZW >> 4g >> cGVyaGFwcyB5b3UgCj4+YXJlIGEgcG9ldC4gIElmIHlvdSB1c2UgaXQgd2l0aG91dCBleGFtaW >> 5p >> bmcgCj4+eW91ciBvd24gaGVhcnQgKHllcywgSSBlcXVhdGVkICdpbnRlbnQnIHdpdGggCj4+J2 >> hl >> YXJ0JyksIHRoZW4geW91IGFyZSBubyBwb2V0IC0t >> IGF0IGFsbC4KPj4KPj5BbXkKPj4KPj5Ob2lz >> ZSBwcm92ZXMgbm90aGluZy4gT2Z0ZW4gYSBoZW4gd2hvIGhhcyBtZXJlbHkgCj4+bGFpZCBhbi >> Bl >> Z2cgY2Fja2xlcyBhcyBpZiBzaGUgaGFkIGxhaWQgYW4gYXN0ZXJvaWQuCj4+LSBNYXJrIFR3YW >> lu >> Cj4+Cj4+Cj4+KioqKioqKioqCj4+VklEQTogIFdvbWVuIGluIExpdGVyYXJ5IEFydHMKPj4rID >> xo >> dHRwOi8vdmlkYXdlYi5vcmcvYXV0aG9yL2tpbmc+SW50ZXJ2aWV3cwo+Pgo+PkFteSdzIEFsaW >> Fz >> Cj4+KyA8aHR0cDovL2FteWtpbmcub3JnLz5odHRwOi8vYW15a2luZy5vcmcvCj4+KioqKioqKi >> oK >> Pj4KPj4KPj4KPj4KPj48aHR0cDovL3VzLnJkLnlhaG9vLmNvbS9ldnQ9NDk5ODEvKmh0dHA6Ly >> 9h >> ZHZpc2lvbi53ZWJldmVudHMueWFob28uY29tL21haWxiZXRhL2ZlYXR1cmVzX3NwYW0uaHRtbD >> 5T >> dWNrZXItcHVuY2ggCj4+c3BhbSB3aXRoIGF3YXJkLXdpbm5pbmcgcHJvdGVjdGlvbi4KPj5Ucn >> kg >> dGhlIAo+PjxodHRwOi8vdXMucmQueWFob28uY29tL2V2dD00OTk4MS8qaHR0cDovL2FkdmlzaW >> 9u >> LndlYmV2ZW50cy55YWhvby5jb20vbWFpbGJldGEvZmVhdHVyZXNfc3BhbS5odG1sPmZyZWUgCj >> 4+ >> WWFob28hIE1haWwgQmV0YS4KPj5fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX1 >> 9f >> X19fX19fX19fXwo+Pk5ldy1Qb2V0cnkgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Cj4+TmV3LVBvZXRyeUB3aXouY2 >> F0 >> aC52dC5lZHUKPj5odHRwOi8vd2l6LmNhdGgudnQuZWR1L21haWxtYW4vbGlzdGluZm8vbmV3LX >> Bv >> ZXRyeQo+Cj4KPgo+TmV3IGZyb20gQ2hheCBQcmVzczogTWFyayBXZWlzcywgQXMgTGFuZHNjYX >> Bl >> Lgo+JDE2LiAgT3JkZXIgZnJvbSBodHRwOi8vd3d3LmNoYXgub3JnL3BvZXRzL3dlaXNzLmh0bQ >> o+ >> Cj4KPiJXaGF0IGEgYmVhdXRpZnVsIHNldCBvZiBjaXJjdW1zdGFuY2VzISBXaGF0IGEgCj5sb3 >> Zl >> bHkgY29uY2F0ZW5hdGlvbiBvZiBwYXJ0aWN1bGFycy4gSGVyZSBpcyB0aGUgCj5wb2V0IGFsaX >> Zl >> IGluIGV2ZXJ5IHNlbnNlIG9mIHRoZSB3b3JkLCBhbmQgCj50aHJvdWdoIGV2ZXJ5IG9uZSBvZi >> Bo >> aXMgc2Vuc2VzLiBJbnN0ZWFkIG9mIAo+bWlzc2luZyBhIGJlYXQgb3IgYSBwYXJ0LCBXZWlzc8 >> KS >> IGZyYWdtZW50cyBhcmUgCj5saWtlIENoZWtob3bCknMgc2hvcnQgc3Rvcmllc8KtdGhlIG1vcm >> Ug >> dGhhdCBnZXRzIAo+bGVmdCBvdXQsIHRoZSBtb3JlIHRoZXkgc2VlbSB0byBjb250YWluwoU+IE >> 9u >> ZSBjYW4gCj5oZWFyIGVjaG9lcyBmcm9tIGFsbCB0aGUgdmFyaW91cyAKPmFuY2VzdG9ycy4uLl >> ti >> dXRdIHRoZSB2b2ljZSwgYXQgaXRzIGNlbnRlciwgaXRzIAo+Y29yZSwgaXMgcHVyZSBNYXJrIF >> dl >> aXNzLiBIaXMgdXNlIG9mIHRoZSBmcmFnbWVudCAKPmlzIGJvdGggZWxlZ2FudCBhbmQgYmFmZm >> xp >> bmdseSBjbGVhciwgYSBwdXJlIAo+bXVzaWNhbCB0aHJlbm9kecKFPltpdF0gb3BlbnMgYSB3aW >> 5k >> b3csIG5vdCBvbmx5IAo+aW50byBhIG1pbmQsIGJ1dCBhIHBlcnNvbiwgYSBwZXJzb25hbGl0eS >> wg >> dGhpcyAKPmh1bWFuIGZpZ3VyZSBhdCB0aGUgZW1vdGlvbmFsIGNlbnRlciBvZiB0aGUgcG9lbS >> 4i >> Cj4KPk0uRy4gU3RlcGhlbnMsIGluIEphY2tldC4gCj5odHRwOi8vamFja2V0bWFnYXppbmUuY2 >> 9t >> LzQwL3Itd2Vpc3MtcmItc3RlcGhlbnMuc2h0bWwKPgo+X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX1 >> 9f >> X19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX19fX18KPk5ldy1Qb2V0cnkgbWFpbGluZyBsaXN0Cj5OZXctUG >> 9l >> dHJ5QHdpei5jYXRoLnZ0LmVkdQo+aHR0cDovL3dpei5jYXRoLnZ0LmVkdS9tYWlsbWFuL2xpc3 >> Rp >> bmZvL25ldy1wb2V0cnkK >> >> >> > > Is this another one of your sonnets, Hal? I didn't read it, but I think it should be censored. Sam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Tue Feb 15 22:23:20 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 22:23:20 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent Message-ID: <9789e.7aeef6c7.3a8c9d28@cs.com> In a message dated 2/15/2011 1:24:34 PM Central Standard Time, tad at opus40.org writes: > > > With all respect, I'm not sure it's entirely clear in what sense it has > been proposed here. If you toy with the idea of writing a poem about wanting > to fuck your mother, and then you decide, well, it could be a pretty good > poem, but I really don't want to embarrass my mother if her friends read it, > you at least have the option of censoring yourself, and it's not the most > cowardly of considerations. Hoagland dreamed up a name for Venus Williams > that says fairly blatantly, "let's get a good laugh at the expense of these > dumb black people who dream up ridiculous names that no civilized person > would ever use." Whether or not he puts it in the mouth of a persona, he's > still the one that dreamed it up. It's not so Philistine to suggest that he > might have thought -- do I really want to be that offensive? Is it worth it, > for what I'm trying to do with this poem? Perhaps he did think along those > lines, and he decided Hell yes, it's worth it. This is an important poem, > and I can't write it without using the sort of degrading nickname my > buddies and I used to dream up in junior high. Or perhaps he came up with other > nicknames that were even worse than this one, and decided, Well, maybe I > don't want to go that far. In any case, that sort of self-censorship is part > of what we do, or at least part of what we can do, not illegitimately. And > of course I'm not saying that any time we think "Maybe I shouldn't do that," > we shouldn't do it. If one feels it's really important to write that poem > about fucking one's mother, who's to say it's not? In Woody Allen's Mighty Aphrodite, in one of the choral sequences (that allude heavily to Oedipus the King), the Jocaste character says, "Oedipus. My son. Can you imagine what they call him up in Harlem?" I expect that most of us, if we encountered the names Venus Williams or Serena Williams on a random list of names would, if we had no knowledge of the real people who had these names, be able to make any judgment about race; both are, after all, solidly Roman in their origins, and "Williams" is as Welsh as I am in ancestry. But because we know that they are African-Americans (and celebrities) we might say or think something like what you say above about Hoagland's choice. That's what I mean by calling Hoagland's morph of the name being "mean-spirited" and mildly racist. It has been fashionable among African-Americans for at least the last 30 years to come up with "original" names for their children, in the same way that white hippie parents in the late 60s might saddle a child with something like "Enlightenment" or "Moonbeam." But parents, of any race, should really think through what they are going to name their kids. I have personally taught Latrina and Shitonya. I also knew a white guy in college whose thoughtless parents named him Richard. His last name was "Head." -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com Tue Feb 15 23:20:09 2011 From: robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 23:20:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Hoagland's Dangerous Intent In-Reply-To: <9789e.7aeef6c7.3a8c9d28@cs.com> References: <9789e.7aeef6c7.3a8c9d28@cs.com> Message-ID: From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com I also knew a white guy in college whose thoughtless parents named him Richard. His last name was "Head." Was he any relation to the author of The English Rogue (1665) and The Canting Academy (1673)? One of my heroes, that one! Robin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 16 09:31:02 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 09:31:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Maya Angelou awarded Medal of Freedom Message-ID: <8CD9BFD45B9359F-1314-472F@webmail-d087.sysops.aol.com> http://www.examiner.com/social-justice-in-national/president-obama-present-metal-of-freedom-to-poet-maya-angelou President Barack Obama presented the Metal of Freedom to poet and writer Maya Angelou in a ceremony at the White House in Washington D.C. on February 15, 2011. Maya Angelou was one of 12 people honored at the ceremony recognizing people who have made extraordinary contributions to American society. President Obama presents Metal of Freedom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reneea at verizon.net Wed Feb 16 09:20:56 2011 From: reneea at verizon.net (Renee Ashley) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 09:20:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] first book contest in poetry and prose (no fee): Fairleigh Dickinson Univ Message-ID: <8E7100918A9140C69174AC336D82A3AF@ReneePC> Just passing this along! r First Book Contest Sponsored by the MFA in Creative Writing Program at Fairleigh Dickinson University and Serving House Books We?re looking for exceptional prose and poetry from writers who have not yet published full length books. There?s NO ENTRY FEE, but there are some rules and regs. Please read carefully. * Prose entries may be novels, story collections, or works of creative nonfiction. They should be between 40,000 and 75,000 words. * Poetry entries may be a collection of poems or a single long poem. They should be between 50 and 100 pages. * There is no entry fee. * Winners in each category will be invited to the FDU Madison campus for one week as a visiting writer to participate in the BA in Creative Writing program. They also will give a public reading in New York City and receive 20 copies of the published book of their work. 1. All entries must be submitted in digital format as a Microsoft Word doc or docx or as an rtf file at: 2. http://fdumfacontest.submishmash.com/Submit * Entries must be received by midnight April 1, 2011 and winners will be announced on June 1, 2011. * The winning entries will be selected by faculty members of the MFA in Creative Writing Program. And here are the caveats and disclaimers in the usual small print. * Current and former students, graduates, employees and faculty of Fairleigh Dickinson University may not participate. * If a winner is not a resident of the United States or Canada, an alternative to the campus visit and New York reading will be determined. * Work previously published in magazines, journals, or similar print or web outlets may be part of the entry manuscript with an indication of the publication source. * Authors of the winning entries are responsible for obtaining all appropriate permissions and releases. * The books selected will be copyrighted in the name of the authors. * The sponsors reserve the right not to select a winner in either category if a suitable entry cannot be found. * Serving House Books is a publication-on-demand publisher with all of its books available through Amazon.com and through major distributors. Certain works are also available on Kindle, iBooks, and Barnes & Noble in consultation with the author. __._,_.___ Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (1) Recent Activity: a.. New Members 40 Visit Your Group Creative Writers Opportunities List Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest ? Unsubscribe ? Terms of Use. __,_._,___ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 16 12:10:30 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 12:10:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Whose Line Is It, Anyway? Message-ID: <8CD9C138CCC759D-22A8-AC6D@Webmail-m121.sysops.aol.com> http://www.observer.com/2011/daily-transom/whose-line-it-anyway# Whose Line Is It, Anyway? By Michael H. Miller February 16, 2011 | 10:50 a.m. To a literal-minded reader, "Lust for Life," a poem Michael Robbins published last April in The New Yorker, would have raised a few questions. Are elephants ever cannibals? Has the poet ever operated a meth lab? Did that meth lab often explode? Is Mr. Robbins really often compared to Britney Spears? Has John Milton ever jumped out of his birthday cake? Does he really think everyone in Sweden is an idiot? For the magazine's fact-checkers, perhaps the city's foremost partisans of the literal, the issue was, Who invented refrigeration? "The idiot Swedes do a number on me/ They invent refrigeration and sleep in shifts," ran the offending lines. / -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From by.tjmst at gmail.com Wed Feb 16 13:50:03 2011 From: by.tjmst at gmail.com (BY TJMST) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 11:50:03 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] New-Poetry Digest, Vol 7, Issue 51 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Felicitations on the well -deserving award to POET MAJA ANGELOU-especially congously for freedom fighting across the years -beyond gender matter-GBEMI TIJANI MST On 2/16/11, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote: > Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > You can reach the person managing the list at > new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Maya Angelou awarded Medal of Freedom (jforjames at aol.com) > 2. first book contest in poetry and prose (no fee): Fairleigh > Dickinson Univ (Renee Ashley) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 09:31:02 -0500 > From: jforjames at aol.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: [New-Poetry] Maya Angelou awarded Medal of Freedom > Message-ID: <8CD9BFD45B9359F-1314-472F at webmail-d087.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > http://www.examiner.com/social-justice-in-national/president-obama-present-metal-of-freedom-to-poet-maya-angelou > > > President Barack Obama presented the Metal of Freedom to poet and writer > Maya Angelou in a ceremony at the White House in Washington D.C. on February > 15, 2011. Maya Angelou was one of 12 people honored at the ceremony > recognizing people who have made extraordinary contributions to American > society. President Obama presents Metal of Freedom > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 09:20:56 -0500 > From: "Renee Ashley" > To: "NewPoetry List" > Subject: [New-Poetry] first book contest in poetry and prose (no fee): > Fairleigh Dickinson Univ > Message-ID: <8E7100918A9140C69174AC336D82A3AF at ReneePC> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Just passing this along! > r > > > > > First Book Contest > > Sponsored by the MFA in Creative Writing Program at Fairleigh Dickinson > University and Serving House Books > > We?re looking for exceptional prose and poetry from writers who have > not yet published full length books. There?s NO ENTRY FEE, but there > are some rules and regs. Please read carefully. > > * Prose entries may be novels, story collections, or works of creative > nonfiction. They should be between 40,000 and 75,000 words. > > * Poetry entries may be a collection of poems or a single long poem. > They should be between 50 and 100 pages. > > * There is no entry fee. > > * Winners in each category will be invited to the FDU Madison campus > for one week as a visiting writer to participate in the BA in Creative > Writing program. They also will give a public reading in New York City > and receive 20 copies of the published book of their work. > > 1. > All entries must be submitted in digital format as a Microsoft Word doc > or docx or as an rtf file at: > > 2. > http://fdumfacontest.submishmash.com/Submit > > * Entries must be received by midnight April 1, 2011 and winners will > be announced on June 1, 2011. > > * The winning entries will be selected by faculty members of the MFA in > Creative Writing Program. > > And here are the caveats and disclaimers in the usual small print. > * Current and former students, graduates, employees and faculty of > Fairleigh Dickinson University may not participate. > * If a winner is not a resident of the United States or Canada, an > alternative to the campus visit and New York reading will be determined. > * Work previously published in magazines, journals, or similar print or > web outlets may be part of the entry manuscript with an indication of > the publication source. > * Authors of the winning entries are responsible for obtaining all > appropriate permissions and releases. > * The books selected will be copyrighted in the name of the authors. > * The sponsors reserve the right not to select a winner in either > category if a suitable entry cannot be found. > * Serving House Books is a publication-on-demand publisher with all of > its books available through Amazon.com and through major distributors. > Certain works are also available on Kindle, iBooks, and Barnes & Noble > in consultation with the author. > > > > __._,_.___ > Reply to sender | Reply to group | Reply via web post | Start a New Topic > Messages in this topic (1) > Recent Activity: a.. New Members 40 > Visit Your Group > Creative Writers Opportunities List > Switch to: Text-Only, Daily Digest ? Unsubscribe ? Terms of Use. > > __,_._,___ > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 7, Issue 51 > ***************************************** > From almaginnes at aol.com Wed Feb 16 14:20:35 2011 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 14:20:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Maya Angelou awarded Medal of Freedom In-Reply-To: <8CD9BFD45B9359F-1314-472F@webmail-d087.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD9BFD45B9359F-1314-472F@webmail-d087.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CD9C25B8DE5E42-1244-A7B0@webmail-m059.sysops.aol.com> Maybe next time a poet will get one of those awards. -----Original Message----- From: jforjames To: new-poetry Sent: Wed, Feb 16, 2011 2:19 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] Maya Angelou awarded Medal of Freedom http://www.examiner.com/social-justice-in-national/president-obama-present-metal-of-freedom-to-poet-maya-angelou President Barack Obama presented the Metal of Freedom to poet and writer Maya Angelou in a ceremony at the White House in Washington D.C. on February 15, 2011. Maya Angelou was one of 12 people honored at the ceremony recognizing people who have made extraordinary contributions to American society. President Obama presents Metal of Freedom _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Wed Feb 16 14:40:50 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 13:40:50 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Maya Angelou awarded Medal of Freedom In-Reply-To: <8CD9C25B8DE5E42-1244-A7B0@webmail-m059.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD9BFD45B9359F-1314-472F@webmail-d087.sysops.aol.com> <8CD9C25B8DE5E42-1244-A7B0@webmail-m059.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Ouch! "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home *Mainly Black , **Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ;* *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; * ***Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; * ***G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 1:20 PM, wrote: > Maybe next time a poet will get one of those awards. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: jforjames > To: new-poetry > Sent: Wed, Feb 16, 2011 2:19 pm > Subject: [New-Poetry] Maya Angelou awarded Medal of Freedom > > > http://www.examiner.com/social-justice-in-national/president-obama-present-metal-of-freedom-to-poet-maya-angelou > > President Barack Obama presented the Metal of Freedom to poet and writer > Maya Angelou in a ceremony at the White House in Washington D.C. on February > 15, 2011. Maya Angelou was one of 12 people honored at the ceremony > recognizing people who have made extraordinary contributions to American > society. President Obama presents Metal of Freedom > > _______________________________________________ > > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Feb 16 15:05:56 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 15:05:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Maya Angelou awarded Medal of Freedom In-Reply-To: <8CD9C25B8DE5E42-1244-A7B0@webmail-m059.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD9BFD45B9359F-1314-472F@webmail-d087.sysops.aol.com> <8CD9C25B8DE5E42-1244-A7B0@webmail-m059.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D5C2E24.6020407@nut-n-but.net> On 2/16/2011 2:20 PM, almaginnes at aol.com wrote: > Maybe next time a poet will get one of those awards. . Hey, everybody, that was Al, not me!! --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From almaginnes at aol.com Wed Feb 16 15:17:33 2011 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 20:17:33 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Maya Angelou awarded Medal of Freedom In-Reply-To: <4D5C2E24.6020407@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CD9BFD45B9359F-1314-472F@webmail-d087.sysops.aol.com><8CD9C25B8DE5E42-1244-A7B0@webmail-m059.sysops.aol.com><4D5C2E24.6020407@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <1454821973-1297887455-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1961162956-@bda2910.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Oh no. I'm becoming Bob. Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry -----Original Message----- From: Bob Grumman Sender: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 15:05:56 To: NewPoetry List Reply-To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Maya Angelou awarded Medal of Freedom _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Wed Feb 16 15:20:35 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 12:20:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Maya Angelou awarded Medal of Freedom In-Reply-To: <8CD9BFD45B9359F-1314-472F@webmail-d087.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD9BFD45B9359F-1314-472F@webmail-d087.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <781968.19427.qm@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Oh No. It's Maya Angelo. Mr. Prez must be awfully bored if he has nothing better to do than give awards to lousy verse hacks. Jamicia Kincaid. Give her something. She's deserving. ________________________________ From: "jforjames at aol.com" To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wed, February 16, 2011 9:31:02 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Maya Angelou awarded Medal of Freedom http://www.examiner.com/social-justice-in-national/president-obama-present-metal-of-freedom-to-poet-maya-angelou President Barack Obama presented the Metal of Freedom to poet and writer Maya Angelou in a ceremony at the White House in Washington D.C. on February 15, 2011. Maya Angelou was one of 12 people honored at the ceremony recognizing people who have made extraordinary contributions to American society. President Obama presents Metal of Freedom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fox.skip at gmail.com Wed Feb 16 15:41:47 2011 From: fox.skip at gmail.com (Skip Fox) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 14:41:47 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Maya Angelou awarded Medal of Freedom In-Reply-To: <781968.19427.qm@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <8CD9BFD45B9359F-1314-472F@webmail-d087.sysops.aol.com> <781968.19427.qm@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: When Maya Angelo became "The Hallmark Poet," I said to a graduate creative writing class, "At last it's official!" (By the way, she really is The Hallmark Poet. Announced on NPR several years ago.) On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 2:20 PM, stephen russell < poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: > Oh No. > It's Maya Angelo. > > Mr. Prez must be awfully bored if he has nothing better to do than give > awards to lousy verse hacks. > Jamicia Kincaid. Give her something. She's deserving. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* "jforjames at aol.com" > *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > *Sent:* Wed, February 16, 2011 9:31:02 AM > *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Maya Angelou awarded Medal of Freedom > > > http://www.examiner.com/social-justice-in-national/president-obama-present-metal-of-freedom-to-poet-maya-angelou > > President Barack Obama presented the Metal of Freedom to poet and writer > Maya Angelou in a ceremony at the White House in Washington D.C. on February > 15, 2011. Maya Angelou was one of 12 people honored at the ceremony > recognizing people who have made extraordinary contributions to American > society. President Obama presents Metal of Freedom > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Wed Feb 16 15:55:31 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 20:55:31 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Maya Angelou awarded Medal of Freedom In-Reply-To: References: <8CD9BFD45B9359F-1314-472F@webmail-d087.sysops.aol.com>, <781968.19427.qm@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com>, Message-ID: I think large institutions will simply always feel safer with the Hallmark version....which is not really as surprising as it appears on the surface.... Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 14:41:47 -0600 From: fox.skip at gmail.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Maya Angelou awarded Medal of Freedom When Maya Angelo became "The Hallmark Poet," I said to a graduate creative writing class, "At last it's official!" (By the way, she really is The Hallmark Poet. Announced on NPR several years ago.) On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 2:20 PM, stephen russell wrote: Oh No. It's Maya Angelo. Mr. Prez must be awfully bored if he has nothing better to do than give awards to lousy verse hacks. Jamicia Kincaid. Give her something. She's deserving. From: "jforjames at aol.com" To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wed, February 16, 2011 9:31:02 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] Maya Angelou awarded Medal of Freedom http://www.examiner.com/social-justice-in-national/president-obama-present-metal-of-freedom-to-poet-maya-angelou President Barack Obama presented the Metal of Freedom to poet and writer Maya Angelou in a ceremony at the White House in Washington D.C. on February 15, 2011. Maya Angelou was one of 12 people honored at the ceremony recognizing people who have made extraordinary contributions to American society. President Obama presents Metal of Freedom _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From editor at pavementsaw.org Wed Feb 16 16:03:37 2011 From: editor at pavementsaw.org (David Baratier) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 13:03:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Maya Angelou awarded Medal of Freedom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <342589.61283.qm@web45613.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> The American trajectory of Amiri Baraka standing behind the president at various occasions in the early 70's to current day Maya Angelou is astounding. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press 321 Empire Street Montpelier OH 43543 http://pavementsaw.org Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 16 16:10:47 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:10:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Spain will not overturn death sentence of poet Miguel Hernandez Message-ID: <8CD9C351D7FB774-1A9C-D40C@Webmail-m113.sysops.aol.com> http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/news/article_1619812.php/Spain-will-not-overturn-death-sentence-of-poet-Miguel-Hernandez Spain will not overturn death sentence of poet Miguel Hernandez Feb 16, 2011, 17:07 GMT Madrid - Spain's Supreme Court on Wednesday declined to revise the death sentence handed to Miguel Hernandez (1910-42), one of the country's greatest 20th-century poets. Hernandez fought in Spain's 1936-39 civil war on the side of the leftist republicans against General Francisco Franco. After Franco won the war, 'people's poet' Hernandez was sentenced to death on charges including his 'left-wing' poetry. International protests led to the death sentence being commuted into a 30-year prison sentence. Hernandez died of an untreated tuberculosis in an Alicante prison at the age of 31 years. Hernandez' family sought an annulment of the death sentence. The court, however, said it had already been recognized as 'radically unfair' by a 2007 law which generally condemned the summary verdicts handed out by Francoist courts. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Feb 16 16:40:46 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:40:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Maya Angelou awarded Medal of Freedom In-Reply-To: <1454821973-1297887455-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1961162956-@bda2910.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <8CD9BFD45B9359F-1314-472F@webmail-d087.sysops.aol.com><8CD9C25B8DE5E42-1244-A7B0@webmail-m059.sysops.aol.com><4D5C2E 24.6020407@nut-n-but.net> <1454821973-1297887455-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1961162956-@bda2910.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <4D5C445E.5060100@nut-n-but.net> On 2/16/2011 3:17 PM, almaginnes at aol.com wrote: > Oh no. I'm becoming Bob. You're just the first of my conversions, Al. Heheheheheheheh. --Bob From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Wed Feb 16 16:38:18 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 21:38:18 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Maya Angelou awarded Medal of Freedom In-Reply-To: <4D5C445E.5060100@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CD9BFD45B9359F-1314-472F@webmail-d087.sysops.aol.com><8CD9C25B8DE5E42-1244-A7B0@webmail-m059.sysops.aol.com><4D5C2E, 24.6020407@nut-n-but.net>, <1454821973-1297887455-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1961162956-@bda2910.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>, <4D5C445E.5060100@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: I think it's safe to say that Maya brings out the Bob in all of us-- > Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:40:46 -0500 > From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Maya Angelou awarded Medal of Freedom > > On 2/16/2011 3:17 PM, almaginnes at aol.com wrote: > > Oh no. I'm becoming Bob. > > You're just the first of my conversions, Al. Heheheheheheheh. > > --Bob > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Wed Feb 16 17:37:29 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:37:29 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Spain will not overturn death sentence of poet Miguel Hernandez In-Reply-To: <8CD9C351D7FB774-1A9C-D40C@Webmail-m113.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD9C351D7FB774-1A9C-D40C@Webmail-m113.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Let's file this under Too-Late-For-All-That. "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home *Mainly Black , **Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ;* *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; * ***Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; * ***G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 3:10 PM, wrote: > > http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/news/article_1619812.php/Spain-will-not-overturn-death-sentence-of-poet-Miguel-Hernandez > Spain will not overturn death sentence of poet Miguel Hernandez > Feb 16, 2011, 17:07 GMT > > Madrid - Spain's Supreme Court on Wednesday declined to revise the death > sentence handed to Miguel Hernandez (1910-42), one of the country's greatest > 20th-century poets. > Hernandez fought in Spain's 1936-39 civil war on the side of the leftist > republicans against General Francisco Franco. After Franco won the war, > 'people's poet' Hernandez was sentenced to death on charges including his > 'left-wing' poetry. > > International protests led to the death sentence being commuted into a > 30-year prison sentence. Hernandez died of an untreated tuberculosis in an > Alicante prison at the age of 31 years. > > Hernandez' family sought an annulment of the death sentence. The court, > however, said it had already been recognized as 'radically unfair' by a 2007 > law which generally condemned the summary verdicts handed out by Francoist > courts. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Wed Feb 16 17:40:24 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:40:24 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Maya Angelou awarded Medal of Freedom In-Reply-To: <781968.19427.qm@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <8CD9BFD45B9359F-1314-472F@webmail-d087.sysops.aol.com> <781968.19427.qm@web161901.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Anyone notice that he also gave one to #41? Now there's poetry in that notion. Next year #43? "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home *Mainly Black , **Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ;* *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; * ***Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; * ***G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Wed, Feb 16, 2011 at 2:20 PM, stephen russell < poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: > Oh No. > It's Maya Angelo. > > Mr. Prez must be awfully bored if he has nothing better to do than give > awards to lousy verse hacks. > Jamicia Kincaid. Give her something. She's deserving. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* "jforjames at aol.com" > *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > *Sent:* Wed, February 16, 2011 9:31:02 AM > > *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Maya Angelou awarded Medal of Freedom > > > http://www.examiner.com/social-justice-in-national/president-obama-present-metal-of-freedom-to-poet-maya-angelou > > President Barack Obama presented the Metal of Freedom to poet and writer > Maya Angelou in a ceremony at the White House in Washington D.C. on February > 15, 2011. Maya Angelou was one of 12 people honored at the ceremony > recognizing people who have made extraordinary contributions to American > society. President Obama presents Metal of Freedom > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Wed Feb 16 17:55:23 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 16:55:23 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Maya Angelou awarded Medal of Freedom In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Maya Angelou is not a great poet. In fact, she's mostly an embarrassingly bad poet. Many of my students love her. But this is the Medal of Freedom she won, not the Pulitzer or Nobel. I'd say she's being honored as much for her role as educator, activist, and role model for young people as for her writing per se. There is much to admire in Angelou. Angelou's worn a great many hats. I believe she got her start as a dancer and actress. And did you know she can sing? Just this week I was playing in my Poetry Aloud class a recording that Angelou made in 1957, when she was, among other things, a calypso singer. It's called "Miss Calypso," and it's pretty damn good. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Wed Feb 16 19:04:51 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 19:04:51 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Maya Angelou awarded Medal of Freedom Message-ID: <43150.1aece478.3a8dc023@cs.com> In a message dated 2/16/2011 4:55:37 PM Central Standard Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > > Maya Angelou is not a great poet. In fact, she's mostly an embarrassingly > bad poet. Many of my students love her. But this is the Medal of Freedom > she won, not the Pulitzer or Nobel. I'd say she's being honored as much > for her role as educator, activist, and role model for young people as for > her writing per se. There is much to admire in Angelou. > > Angelou's worn a great many hats. I believe she got her start as a > dancer and actress. And did you know she can sing? Just this week I was > playing in my Poetry Aloud class a recording that Angelou made in 1957, when she > was, among other things, a calypso singer. It's called "Miss Calypso," > and it's pretty damn good. > When she was totally unknown, "I Know Why the Caged Bird Sings" was excerpted in Atlantic or maybe Harper's. I thought it was extraordinarily good at the time, though I haven't gone back to it. I did pick up one of her subsequent autobiographies at a B&N more recently, and it was full of stuff like "And you'll never guess who came back stage with a dozen roses! The wonderful, talented Roscoe Lee Browne!" She came to Beaumont once and gave a poetry reading at a local high school. Some of the poems were terrific; unfortunately they were by Langston Hughes, Countee Cullen, and others, and if she mentioned that they were in fact by others it slipped right by me. I once heard a distinguished guest lecturer list her among the Nobel Prize for Literature winners. She is very good with resume-writing. David Alan Grier nailed her: http://www.c omedycentral.com/videos/index.jhtml?title=maya-angelous-benediction&videoId=187055 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Feb 16 19:59:30 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 19:59:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Culture Prizes In-Reply-To: <43150.1aece478.3a8dc023@cs.com> References: <43150.1aece478.3a8dc023@cs.com> Message-ID: <4D5C72F2.8050105@nut-n-but.net> I wonder if there are any prizes for artists and scientists that are not awarded ninety percent of the time to mediocrities or sub-mediocrities. Probably the one for mathematicians. Maybe the one for geologists, too. --Bob From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 16 19:58:32 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 19:58:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Maya Angelou awarded Medal of Freedom In-Reply-To: <8CD9C54B349A4F7-1BA4-12F7B@webmail-d089.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CD9C54EEBDD5B1-1BA4-12FB2@webmail-d089.sysops.aol.com> In Sports, this year's award went to Bill Russell (11 Championships) and to Stan Musial (3630 hits). Here are the other literature winners... Maya Angelou (2011) Harper Lee, 2007 Jacques Barzun (2003) James Burnham (1983) J. Frank Dobie (1964) T. S. Eliot (1964) Ralph Ellison (1969) Eric Hoffer (1982) Louis L'Amour (March 26, 1984) Harper Lee (2007) Archibald MacLeish (1977) James A. Michener (1977) Carl Sandburg (1964) John Steinbeck (1964) DeWitt Wallace (1972) Robert Penn Warren (1980) Eudora Welty (1980) E.B. White (1963) Elie Wiesel (1992) Thornton Wilder (1963) Tennessee Williams (1980) Edmund Wilson (1963) Albert Wohlstetter (1985) {via Wikipedia} Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry Sent: Wed, Feb 16, 2011 5:55 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Maya Angelou awarded Medal of Freedom Maya Angelou is not a great poet. In fact, she's mostly an embarrassingly bad poet. Many of my students love her. But this is the Medal of Freedom she won, not the Pulitzer or Nobel. I'd say she's being honored as much for her role as educator, activist, and role model for young people as for her writing per se. There is much to admire in Angelou. Angelou's worn a great many hats. I believe she got her start as a dancer and actress. And did you know she can sing? Just this week I was playing in my Poetry Aloud class a recording that Angelou made in 1957, when she was, among other things, a calypso singer. It's called "Miss Calypso," and it's pretty damn good. ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Thu Feb 17 11:09:53 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 10:09:53 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] In Clear Conscience Message-ID: *In Clear Conscience* * * 1. All space as it contracts as much dust as a nest of wasps in your hair or whatever seems right to you if you wouldn't rather just have a good time. 2. Eons of ions, but best not to think too much about that. Your bloodstream not the best place for swimming. Coaxed into some idiot's wife's manic bed. 3. Someone peers out of a window. Someone is reading a book. You see all this for the last time, the first time, the last time. Lights out for Charlie, you think, with a smile. HJ "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home *Mainly Black , **Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ;* *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; * ***Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; * ***G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From seamascain at gmail.com Thu Feb 17 11:12:14 2011 From: seamascain at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?S=E9amas_Cain?=) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 10:12:14 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry & code collide Message-ID: _____________________________________ Mez Breeze (Mary-Anne Breeze) is a poet & internet artist. Nicholas O'Brien has a new interview with Mez at ... http://badatsports.com/2011/mezangellen-w-mez/ MEZANGELLE'N W/ MEZ MEZ : "A Mezzian Flesh-Mote enters a library. In a networked sense this library is cold; binary data advancements are yet to make any perceivable impact on its manifest functions. A silvered sliver-glint pulls the Mezzian Mote forward to the only technoniche available -- a computer laboratory, used primarily for word-processing tasks. It also has an Internet connection. A Datadervish [E-Mote] is born, and a Flesh-Mote is extinguished..." [from: _][ad][Dressed in a Skin C.ode_ ] http://www.cddc.vt.edu/host/netwurker/ O'BRIEN : "Where/When did you see poetry and code collide?" Find additional information about Mez at ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mezangelle Find additional wrytings of Nicholas O'Brien at ... http://www.doubleunderscore.net http://blog.art21.org/author/nicholas-obrien/ Codedly yours, S?amas Cain http://www.saorsainn.net http://seamascain-writernetwork.org _____________________________________ From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Feb 17 12:52:45 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 09:52:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] OT: March 2-5: 2011 Chapbook Festival! Register for free workshops now! Message-ID: <886663.92948.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> The Chapbook Festival is almost here! Save the dates and reserve your place in the free workshops now. This year, attend workshops & the bookfair at lunch and in the evenings, too! See you there, The Center for the Humanities Wed Mar 2?Sat Mar 5 THIRD ANNUAL CHAPBOOK FESTIVAL http://www.chapbookfestival.org The Festival celebrates the chapbook as a work of art and as a medium for alternative and emerging writers and publishers. Now in its third year, the festival features a two-day bookfair with chapbook publishers from around the country, panels, workshops, a reading of prize-winning Chapbook Fellows, and a roundtable and launch of Series II in Lost & Found: The CUNY Poetics Documents Initiative. The Festival is free and open to the public, though some events require advance registration, as indicated below. Wed Mar 2, 6:30pm Panel History of Art: Collaborations?Text/Form The Center for Book Arts, 28 W 27th St, 3rd fl Ed Go, Other Rooms Press; Mary Walker Graham, Rope-a-Dope Press; Winnie Huang, artist; MC Hyland, DoubleCross Press This panel discussion will focus on collaborations between visual artists and writers. The formal relationships between text and image on a book page are the product of a creative working relationship between artist and writer: join us to explore the many ways these kinds of partnerships can play out. This panel is part of an ongoing series at Center for Book Arts on the history of collaboration in book arts. organized by the Center for Book Arts Thu Mar 3?Fri Mar 4, Noon?7pm Book Fair Elebash Recital Hall Lobby, The Graduate Center, CUNY 365 Fifth Ave at 34th Street Thu Mar 3, 1pm Workshop Nuts and Bolts for Publishers The Skylight Room (9100), The Graduate Center, CUNY, 365 Fifth Ave at 34th street Andrew Kenower, Trafficker; Rachel Levitsky, Belladonna*; Emily Pettit, Factory Hollow; Matvei Yankelevich, Ugly Duckling Presse This panel brings together experienced chapbook publishers to discuss how to create and run a chapbook press. organized by Poetry Society of America Free registration required. To attend workshops, please register by e-mailing sstarkweather at gc.cuny.edu Thu Mar 3, 5pm Workshop Nuts and Bolts for Writers The Skylight Room (9100), The Graduate Center, CUNY, 365 Fifth Ave at 34th street Hossannah Asuncion, 2010 PSA Fellowship Chapbook Winner; Mary Walker Graham, Rope-a-Dope; Jen Hyde, Small Anchor; Jean Hartig, Poets & Writers This panel will focus on the fine little books that can be produced by hand, from the quick-and-dirty to the fancy-and-giftable, with demonstrations by writers who publish themselves and others, as well as a discussion of how chapbooks can be used to promote work and build community. organized by Poets & Writers Free registration required. To attend workshops, please register by e-mailing sstarkweather at gc.cuny.edu Thu Mar 3, 7pm Reading PSA Chapbook Fellowship Reading The Skylight Room (9100), The Graduate Center, CUNY, 365 Fifth Ave at 34th street Judges of the Poetry Society of America?s eighth annual Chapbook Fellowship introduce this year?s winners. Judges: Cornelius Eady, Kimiko Hahn, James Tate, Rosanna Warren Winners: Adam Day, Camille Rankine, Andrew Seguin, Hossannah Asuncion organized by Poetry Society of America Fri Mar 4, 1pm Workshop Pushing Boundaries of Form The Skylight Room (9100), The Graduate Center, CUNY, 365 Fifth Ave at 34th street Cara Benson, Dusie Kollektiv; Nate Pritts, H_NGM_N Books; Adam Robinson, Publishing Genius; Felice Tebbe, Booklyn; Mary Gannon, Poets & Writers This panel brings together a group of publishers that are especially innovative in their approach to chapbook publishing to discuss the books they produce, the way they distribute them to readers and everything in between. organized by Poets & Writers Free registration required. To attend workshops, please register by e-mailing sstarkweather at gc.cuny.edu Fri Mar 4, 5pm Workshop Pushing Genre Boundaries of the Chapbook Room 9207, The Graduate Center, CUNY, 365 Fifth Ave at 34th street Jen Hyde, Small Anchor Press; Pei-Ling Lue, One Story; Jacqueline Waters, The Physiocrats. Moderated by Kimiko Hahn, MFA Program, Queens College, CUNY Is the chapbook merely a charming medium for poetry? How is this perceived limitation changing and why? What can the chapbook do for fiction, nonfiction, and drama? Are the publications only for experimental texts? What about digital technologies? How are chapbooks expanding the definition of each genre as well as cross-genre expectations? Is the chapbook just a momentary stay against the brutal commercialization of the industry? Is it even charming? Who cares? Panelists will address these questions and speak about individual projects and visions. organized by the CUNY MFA Affiliation Group Free registration required. To attend workshops, please register by e-mailing sstarkweather at gc.cuny.edu Fri Mar 4, 5:30pm Conversation and Book Launch Book People A Roundtable on Lost & Found: The CUNY Poetics Document Initiative The Skylight Room (9100), The Graduate Center, CUNY, 365 Fifth Ave at 34th street Even in the digital age, the book occupies enormous cultural space and remains a central metaphor of many civilizations. How have poets in the 20th and 21st centuries honored and expanded this tradition? How are histories newly created from archival materials and what are the differences between personal and institutional archives? What are the roles of preservation and design in the transmission of culture? In this extraordinary gathering, hear the perspectives of poets, scholars, archivists, and book designers as they discuss these and other questions. Participants include Ammiel Alcalay, poet, scholar, and founder of Lost & Found; Steve Clay, archivist, scholar, and publisher, founder of Granary Books; Megan Mangum, book designer and founder of Words that Work; Anne Waldman, poet and co-founder, with Allen Ginsberg, of the Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics at Naropa University. Following the roundtable discussion, join us for a presentation and celebration with the editors of Lost & Found, Series 2, with readings, video, and audio presentations of works by Diane di Prima, Robert Duncan, David Henderson, Margaret Randall, and Muriel Rukeyser. Special guest Ken Irby, author of The Intent On (winner of the 2010 Shelley Award), will launch the series with the reading of a new poem that will be available as a broadside. Sets of Lost & Found, Series 2, will be available for purchase. Sat Mar 5, 10am?1pm Workshop Hands-on Book Arts Workshops for Writers The Center for Book Arts, 28 W 27th St, 3rd fl Join us for a hands-on immersion in bookmaking. Participants can choose to set their words in metal type, or try their hand at some basic binding structures. Registration required: (212) 481-0295 $20 material fee organized by the Center for Book Arts Sat Mar 5, 2pm Reading What the Chapbook Means to Me Poets House, 10 River Terrace Jen Bervin, Ugly Duckling Presse; Anna Moschovakis, poet Visual artist and poet Jen Bervin and Ugly Duckling Presse editor and poet Anna Moschovakis discuss the way the chapbook has shaped their work, sharing highlights from their own collections and the Poets House archive. organized by Poets House Participating publishers: 2nd Ave Poetry Belladonna* Booklyn Creature Press Cy Gist Press DoubleCross Press Dusie Kollektiv Factory Hollow Press Forklift, Ohio Greying Ghost Press H_NGM_N Immaculate Disciples Press Love Among the Ruins Magic Helicopter Press Minutes Books One Story Pen Press Pilot Books Poinciana Paper Press Portable Press at Yo-Yo Labs Publishing Genius Rope-a-Dope Press Slapering Hol Press Small Anchor Press Sona Books Supermachine The Corresponding Society The Physiocrats Toadlily Press Trafficker Press Ugly Duckling Presse X-ing Press/Agriculture Reader Visit the Festival on Facebook and see who?s coming! http://www.facebook.com/event.php?eid=140340109363705 co-sponsored by the Office of Academic Affairs, the Center for the Humanities, The Graduate Center, CUNY, the Center for Book Arts, CUNY MFA Affiliation Group, Poets House, Poetry Society of America, Poets & Writers ~ The Graduate Center, CUNY 365 Fifth Ave btwn 34th & 35th. The building and the venues are fully accessible. For more information please call 212/817.2005 or e-mail ch at gc.cuny.edu. www.centerforthehumanitiesgc.org ********* VIDA: Women in Literary Arts + Interviews Amy's Alias + http://amyking.org/ ******** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Feb 17 12:54:29 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 11:54:29 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sydney Lea Message-ID: Sydney Lea is currently featured at How a Poem Happens: http://howapoemhappens.blogspot.com/ -- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Feb 17 13:02:47 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 10:02:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Ron Silliman suggests: If you have to Esque, Message-ID: <468925.76630.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> it's likely 'Oetry -- http://www.esquemag.com/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Feb 17 17:41:01 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 17:41:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship In-Reply-To: <4D5BB3DA57FE41559D8B793FDA1D51B9@RobinLaptopPC> References: <77D9A4B22F3B4D46AB96DD02F1AF67C2@RobinLaptopPC><4D5B06CB.1 010901@nut-n-but.net><3EAB97DBE8D14AB6874A1274C2718593@RobinLaptopPC><4D5B17C1.10801@nut-n-but.net> <4D5BB3DA57FE41559D8B793FDA1D51B9@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4D5DA3FD.5090507@nut-n-but.net> On 2/15/2011 9:24 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote: >>> There were some quite seriously cryptographic elements in my >>> _Notebook for the Beautiful and the Damned of This Present Age_ (it >>> wasn't just tufu Glasgow concrete). >> >> >> Seriously, Robin, are you serious? I'd love to hear more. The >> history of cryptographic poetry is ten times more important than this >> discussion of Hoagland's poem. > > Semi-serious, Bob -- there were faint echoes of cryptography there, > though most of the focus was on information systems. Maybe even a few > poems that in a simpler or primitive way parallelled or foreshadowed > your Mathematiku. And most of the bits that would interest you most > were in the parts that (as I said) weren't published. Also, insofar > as the collection was doing this, it was mostly doing it analogically > rather than directly. Computers as metaphors, before I decided that > angels were in fact more satisfactory. I think you did mention this to me, Robin. I probably failed to mark it too strongly "worth-remembering" in my head because I thought it wasn't all that close to what I was doing. I know suspect it may be. Regardless, I think I'll mark it more strongly this time! > > Anyway, I'll send you a text + the Unpublished Bits when I get back > home in a couple of weeks time, and you can see what you think. Have > I really not shown you this already, or have I done so and you've > forgotten? The composition of the texts dates from the late > sixties/early seventies, though they weren't, most of them, published > till maybe ten years later, by which time the world had moved on. > > There may also have been some influence from Edwin Morgan's strategies > in _Interferences_, or it might just have been something in the air at > the time. There was a rumour, that I've never been sure about, that > Eddie's "Loch Ness Monster's Song" was actually decodeable, which > would make it an echt cryptographic poem. Also possibly his "The > Computer's First Christmas Card". Is there a collected or selected of Morgan's work available? I need to know it better. No doubt you've already told me what books of his I should have, but . . . > > But, novels rather than poetry, have you come across the work of Neil > Stephenson? Especially _Cryptomomicon_, but elsewhere in his work as > well? He does I think go beyond cryptography-as-a-(simple)-metaphor in > his work, and is seriously backgrounded in the details of > cryptoanalysis and that. > > Robin That should be right up my alley, both my xenolinguistics alley and my fun reading alley. thanks for the tips. --Bob From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Thu Feb 17 20:00:45 2011 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 17:00:45 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship In-Reply-To: <4D5BB3DA57FE41559D8B793FDA1D51B9@RobinLaptopPC> References: <77D9A4B22F3B4D46AB96DD02F1AF67C2@RobinLaptopPC> <4D5B06CB.1010901@nut-n-but.net> <3EAB97DBE8D14AB6874A1274C2718593@RobinLaptopPC> <4D5B17C1.10801@nut-n-but.net> <4D5BB3DA57FE41559D8B793FDA1D51B9@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: While it isn't what you mean, my Chanteuse / Cantatrice book has, as the Chanteuse cover image, an enigma machine, and as the Cantatrice cover image, pages of code from/to it, since female radio operators in France during WWII -- their stories -- are one of the layers of the book. There's one single bit of old coded message. What has seemed like cryptography -- or at least chaffing or winnowing (noise to confuse) -- to some has been the powerpoint slide presentation in the middle of my first book, DaDaDa (entitled "In Medias Res" of course). The LINUX kernel also makes a dashing appearance in that. All best, Catherine -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Thu Feb 17 21:58:41 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 21:58:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Self-Censorship In-Reply-To: References: <77D9A4B22F3B4D46AB96DD02F1AF67C2@RobinLaptopPC><4D5B06CB.1 010901@nut-n-but.net><3EAB97DBE8D14AB6874A1274C2718593@RobinLaptopPC><4D5B17C1.10801@nut-n-but.net><4D5BB3DA57FE41559D8B793FDA1 D51B9@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4D5DE061.2040206@nut-n-but.net> On 2/17/2011 8:00 PM, Catherine Daly wrote: > While it isn't what you mean, my Chanteuse / Cantatrice book has, as > the Chanteuse cover image, an enigma machine, and as the Cantatrice > cover image, pages of code from/to it, since female radio operators in > France during WWII -- their stories -- are one of the layers of the > book. There's one single bit of old coded message. Neat. Has me thinking an anthology of poems using codes would be worth having. Which in turn reminds me of recent discussions of subject matter versus content: I get excited by the thought of collections of poems using a certain technique while others, by far the majority of poetry people, think (usually think /only/) of collections of poems about a certain subject. > > What has seemed like cryptography -- or at least chaffing or winnowing > (noise to confuse) -- to some has been the powerpoint slide > presentation in the middle of my first book, DaDaDa (entitled "In > Medias Res" of course). The LINUX kernel also makes a dashing > appearance in that. Sounds neat, too. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Fri Feb 18 03:42:25 2011 From: tad at opus40.org (Tad Richards) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 03:42:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] It's those vigilant liberals again Message-ID: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/17/nyregion/17towns.html?_r=2&scp=1&sq=Greenwood%20Lake,%20NY%20public%20art&st=cse -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Fri Feb 18 04:06:01 2011 From: tad at opus40.org (Tad Richards) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 04:06:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject In-Reply-To: <4D5AF47F.3050201@nut-n-but.net> References: <2C32EDAC-437E-4681-BC15-94700CDD96D4@verizon.net> <4D5AF47F.3050201@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Should I assume, then, that there's something wrong with finding language offensive, and that to say it's offensive automatically makes one a censor? Does this apply to being offended by mediocrities and sub-mediocrities as well? Or vigilant liberals? On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 4:47 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > On 2/15/2011 3:53 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > > No matter what a writer does, it won't prevent someone > somewhere from being offended, outraged, hurt. It might > even earn one a fatwa. How many people does a writer > have to hurt, wound, offend, before his/her writing > becomes hurtful, wounding, offensive? The answer, I > guess, is one. > > > > And if you think you've not offended anyone, I'll pop up to tell you I find > your refusal to offend anyone offensive. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Feb 18 09:45:15 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 09:45:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject In-Reply-To: References: <2C32EDAC-437E-4681-BC15-94700CDD96D4@verizon.net><4D5AF47F.3050201@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4D5E85FB.1090100@nut-n-but.net> On 2/18/2011 4:06 AM, Tad Richards wrote: > Should I assume, then, that there's something wrong with finding > language offensive, and that to say it's offensive automatically makes > one a censor? Does this apply to being offended by mediocrities and > sub-mediocrities as well? Or vigilant liberals? . You should assume that whatever you say will offend someone. As for my definition of censor, it is of course not someone who finds some language offensive but someone who then calls for its . . . censorship. It's kind of logical. Then there's the difference between totalitarian censorship and censorship I'm not sure how to name but will call private censorship. Totalitarian censorship is a government's banning certain kinds of speech and writing by law; private censorship is a private individual's banning certain kinds of speech and writing on his private property. I'm against the right to do the first, for the right to do the second. A world in which a person can express his ideas and feelings without worrying about possibly offending some mental cripple somewhere means more to me than a world that puts the feelings of people unable to withstand being called a nasty name or the like above all else. Which doesn't mean, I should not have to say, that I have no problem at all with verbal abuse, which of course does exist--only that my opinion of hyper-offendables and their morally self-righteous protectors is as low as my opinion of the verbally hyper-abusive. And that whether or not some poem is offensive or not is close to being the world's most trivial question, particular next to whether or not it is aesthetically effective or not. --Bob From htthinc at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 09:50:39 2011 From: htthinc at gmail.com (Paul Howell) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 09:50:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sydney Lea In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, David. Good to catch up with Syd Lea - I haven't seen him for a few years. He's a poet of our climate, and one of the very best coaches to both the well-established and the would-be beginner. Also intimate with trees. On Thu, Feb 17, 2011 at 12:54 PM, David Graham wrote: > Sydney Lea is currently featured at How a Poem Happens: > > http://howapoemhappens.blogspot.com/ > > > -- > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/ > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ==================================================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Feb 18 10:01:11 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 10:01:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] It's those vigilant liberals again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D5E89B7.7040006@nut-n-but.net> Actually, thanks to a very poor, biased /NY Times/ article, we have little idea what the censors were since the article never presents their side of the matter. It is clear, however, that they were not acting as /morally/-vigilant liberals but, it would seem, merely as opponents of large public pictures. Or maybe against such pictures chosen by people without credentials, politicians being leaders in the fight to establish credentials rather than competence as the sole measure of whether or not anyone is qualified to do something. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 09:50:47 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 08:50:47 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject In-Reply-To: References: <2C32EDAC-437E-4681-BC15-94700CDD96D4@verizon.net> <4D5AF47F.3050201@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: You're begging the question, Tad. All I asked was how many . . . well, you read what I wrote, maybe. "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home *Mainly Black , **Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ;* *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; * ***Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; * ***G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 3:06 AM, Tad Richards wrote: > Should I assume, then, that there's something wrong with finding language > offensive, and that to say it's offensive automatically makes one a censor? > Does this apply to being offended by mediocrities and sub-mediocrities as > well? Or vigilant liberals? > > On Tue, Feb 15, 2011 at 4:47 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> On 2/15/2011 3:53 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: >> >> No matter what a writer does, it won't prevent someone >> somewhere from being offended, outraged, hurt. It might >> even earn one a fatwa. How many people does a writer >> have to hurt, wound, offend, before his/her writing >> becomes hurtful, wounding, offensive? The answer, I >> guess, is one. >> >> >> >> And if you think you've not offended anyone, I'll pop up to tell you I >> find your refusal to offend anyone offensive. >> >> --Bob >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Feb 18 10:26:39 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 10:26:39 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] help and advice needed Message-ID: <30498900.1298042799866.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Anybody know a competent techie in the NY area to help me with some software problems? B/c, natch. Best, Mark From junction at earthlink.net Fri Feb 18 10:42:41 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 10:42:41 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject Message-ID: <26994450.1298043761908.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Right, no public censorship whatever. One's personal use of this or that term or phrase, whether in a poem or in speech, is always a question of manifest intent and appropriateness to the context. Which means that there are no words that should never in any circumstances be used by anybody. Writing I think involves an interrogation of one's personal language and the language one hopes to communicate with. It's hard enough without having to stumble over what's forbidden. It doesn't make it easier that what's found offensive differs with time and place. Best, Mark -----Original Message----- >From: Bob Grumman >Sent: Feb 18, 2011 9:45 AM >To: NewPoetry List >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject > >On 2/18/2011 4:06 AM, Tad Richards wrote: >> Should I assume, then, that there's something wrong with finding >> language offensive, and that to say it's offensive automatically makes >> one a censor? Does this apply to being offended by mediocrities and >> sub-mediocrities as well? Or vigilant liberals? >. >You should assume that whatever you say will offend someone. > >As for my definition of censor, it is of course not someone who finds >some language offensive but someone who then calls for its . . . >censorship. It's kind of logical. Then there's the difference between >totalitarian censorship and censorship I'm not sure how to name but will >call private censorship. Totalitarian censorship is a government's >banning certain kinds of speech and writing by law; private censorship >is a private individual's banning certain kinds of speech and writing on >his private property. I'm against the right to do the first, for the >right to do the second. A world in which a person can express his ideas >and feelings without worrying about possibly offending some mental >cripple somewhere means more to me than a world that puts the feelings >of people unable to withstand being called a nasty name or the like >above all else. Which doesn't mean, I should not have to say, that I >have no problem at all with verbal abuse, which of course does >exist--only that my opinion of hyper-offendables and their morally >self-righteous protectors is as low as my opinion of the verbally >hyper-abusive. And that whether or not some poem is offensive or not is >close to being the world's most trivial question, particular next to >whether or not it is aesthetically effective or not. > >--Bob > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com Fri Feb 18 11:10:25 2011 From: robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 11:10:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cryptographic Poetry -- was: Self-Censorship In-Reply-To: <4D5DA3FD.5090507@nut-n-but.net> References: <77D9A4B22F3B4D46AB96DD02F1AF67C2@RobinLaptopPC><4D5B06CB.1010901@nut-n-but.net><3EAB97DBE8D14AB6874A1274C2718593@RobinLaptopPC><4D5B17C1.10801@nut-n-but.net><4D5BB3DA57FE41559D8B793FDA1D51B9@RobinLaptopPC> <4D5DA3FD.5090507@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Bob: >> There may also have been some influence from Edwin Morgan's strategies in >> _Interferences_, or it might just have been something in the air at the >> time. There was a rumour, that I've never been sure about, that Eddie's >> "Loch Ness Monster's Song" was actually decodeable, which would make it >> an echt cryptographic poem. Also possibly his "The Computer's First >> Christmas Card". > > Is there a collected or selected of Morgan's work available? I need to > know it better. No doubt you've already told me what books of his I > should have, but . . . I'll send you a more specific list when I get back -- I think all the relevant texts would fall into the period between roughly early sixties to the mid seventies, "Early Edwin Morgan" so to speak, when he was most heavily involved with Concrete Poetry. But all my texts are in the UK, and I don't get back there till the fifth of next month. I'll do this backchannel (remind me if I forget) as I guess this may be a little too specialist to interest the list as a whole. A starting point for looking at his work as a whole would be whatever is the current Selected available from Carcanet. Robin From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Feb 18 12:14:15 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 12:14:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Cryptographic Poetry -- was: Self-Censorship In-Reply-To: References: <77D9A4B22F3B4D46AB96DD02F1AF67C2@RobinLaptopPC><4D5B06CB.1 010901@nut-n-but.net><3EAB97DBE8D14AB6874A1274C2718593@RobinLaptopPC><4D5B17C1.10801@nut-n-but.net><4D5BB3DA57FE41559D8B793FDA1 D51B9@RobinLaptopPC><4D5DA3FD.5090507@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4D5EA8E7.2040105@nut-n-but.net> On 2/18/2011 11:10 AM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > Bob: > >>> There may also have been some influence from Edwin Morgan's >>> strategies in _Interferences_, or it might just have been something >>> in the air at the time. There was a rumour, that I've never been >>> sure about, that Eddie's "Loch Ness Monster's Song" was actually >>> decodeable, which would make it an echt cryptographic poem. Also >>> possibly his "The Computer's First Christmas Card". >> >> Is there a collected or selected of Morgan's work available? I need >> to know it better. No doubt you've already told me what books of his >> I should have, but . . . > > I'll send you a more specific list when I get back -- I think all the > relevant texts would fall into the period between roughly early > sixties to the mid seventies, "Early Edwin Morgan" so to speak, when > he was most heavily involved with Concrete Poetry. But all my texts > are in the UK, and I don't get back there till the fifth of next month. > > I'll do this backchannel (remind me if I forget) as I guess this may > be a little too specialist to interest the list as a whole. A > starting point for looking at his work as a whole would be whatever is > the current Selected available from Carcanet. > > Robin Good show, oh, beam of Rah. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Feb 18 12:17:57 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 12:17:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Morgan In-Reply-To: References: <77D9A4B22F3B4D46AB96DD02F1AF67C2@RobinLaptopPC><4D5B06CB.1 010901@nut-n-but.net><3EAB97DBE8D14AB6874A1274C2718593@RobinLaptopPC><4D5B17C1.10801@nut-n-but.net><4D5BB3DA57FE41559D8B793FDA1 D51B9@RobinLaptopPC><4D5DA3FD.5090507@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4D5EA9C5.9010401@nut-n-but.net> A question just crossed my mind regarding Morgan, Robin: is he on record about why he lost interest in concrete poetry? My impression is that he reached about the same point I did as a concrete poet, perhaps at around the same time. He went from it, I went into new modes of it, namely mathematical poetry. Which, in my case, is only slightly concrete by now. --Bob From halvard at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 12:59:01 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 11:59:01 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nights at the Suspended Piglet Message-ID: * Nights at the Suspended Piglet A dark one, a light one. One for the road. Clouds above the fjord. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Mainly Black , Obras P?blicas ; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; Tango Bouquet ; Theory of Harmony ; Rapsodie espagnole ; Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; The Sonnet Project ; G(e)nome ; Winter Journey ; Eclipse ; The Dance of the Red Swan ; Transparencies & Projections * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Fri Feb 18 13:08:10 2011 From: tad at opus40.org (Tad Richards) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 13:08:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject In-Reply-To: <26994450.1298043761908.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <26994450.1298043761908.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: I don't believe the issue of whether or not Hoagland's poem should be forbidden ever came up here. On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 10:42 AM, wrote: > Right, no public censorship whatever. One's personal use of this or that > term or phrase, whether in a poem or in speech, is always a question of > manifest intent and appropriateness to the context. Which means that there > are no words that should never in any circumstances be used by anybody. > > Writing I think involves an interrogation of one's personal language and > the language one hopes to communicate with. It's hard enough without having > to stumble over what's forbidden. > > It doesn't make it easier that what's found offensive differs with time and > place. > > Best, > > Mark > > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Bob Grumman > >Sent: Feb 18, 2011 9:45 AM > >To: NewPoetry List > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject > > > >On 2/18/2011 4:06 AM, Tad Richards wrote: > >> Should I assume, then, that there's something wrong with finding > >> language offensive, and that to say it's offensive automatically makes > >> one a censor? Does this apply to being offended by mediocrities and > >> sub-mediocrities as well? Or vigilant liberals? > >. > >You should assume that whatever you say will offend someone. > > > >As for my definition of censor, it is of course not someone who finds > >some language offensive but someone who then calls for its . . . > >censorship. It's kind of logical. Then there's the difference between > >totalitarian censorship and censorship I'm not sure how to name but will > >call private censorship. Totalitarian censorship is a government's > >banning certain kinds of speech and writing by law; private censorship > >is a private individual's banning certain kinds of speech and writing on > >his private property. I'm against the right to do the first, for the > >right to do the second. A world in which a person can express his ideas > >and feelings without worrying about possibly offending some mental > >cripple somewhere means more to me than a world that puts the feelings > >of people unable to withstand being called a nasty name or the like > >above all else. Which doesn't mean, I should not have to say, that I > >have no problem at all with verbal abuse, which of course does > >exist--only that my opinion of hyper-offendables and their morally > >self-righteous protectors is as low as my opinion of the verbally > >hyper-abusive. And that whether or not some poem is offensive or not is > >close to being the world's most trivial question, particular next to > >whether or not it is aesthetically effective or not. > > > >--Bob > > > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Feb 18 13:40:10 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 13:40:10 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Nights at the Suspended Piglet Message-ID: <13719383.1298054410590.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Feb 18 13:53:57 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 13:53:57 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject Message-ID: <27177394.1298055238180.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Feb 18 14:03:21 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 14:03:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject In-Reply-To: References: <26994450.1298043761908.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4D5EC279.1000602@nut-n-but.net> On 2/18/2011 1:08 PM, Tad Richards wrote: > I don't believe the issue of whether or not Hoagland's poem should be > forbidden ever came up here. . I think you're right, Tad. I don't think the issue of whether or not Obama should make it required reading in the nation's high schools did, either. --Bob From halvard at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 14:37:54 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 13:37:54 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject In-Reply-To: <27177394.1298055238180.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <27177394.1298055238180.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Apart from what offensiveness is and what might offend, does anyone have a right not to be offended? "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home *Mainly Black , **Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ;* *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; * ***Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; * ***G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 12:53 PM, wrote: > Hi, Tad. Sorry if I wasn't clear. Of course I'm not saying that you or > anyone else in this discussion have suggested that the poem should be > forbidden. The issue I think is about whether an offensive term ever has a > value sufficient to offset its offensiveness, and whether the word should be > officially or by tacit agreement banned. That, at any rate, is what I was > addressing. > > It seems to me now that this raises issues beyond poetry, which as media go > is tiny and usually pretty private. There has been the endless judicial > battle about "dirty words" in the public media, based on the awareness I > think that because access is so much easier folks can be blindsided to > exposure of themselves or their children to things they find offensive. It's > a tough call. Rating systems I suppose are appropriate as a warning, as long > as those who administer them take into account the Supreme Court's decision > about the culture's changing levels of tolerance. More effective for film > than for television and radio--at least in a theater one usually doesn't > wander through a film intended for others, whereas the kids will pass > through the space where adults are watching a tv show, often tuned into well > after the warning has come down from the screen. > > Best, > > Mark > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tad Richards > Sent: Feb 18, 2011 1:08 PM > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject > > I don't believe the issue of whether or not Hoagland's poem should be > forbidden ever came up here. > > On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 10:42 AM, wrote: > >> Right, no public censorship whatever. One's personal use of this or that >> term or phrase, whether in a poem or in speech, is always a question of >> manifest intent and appropriateness to the context. Which means that there >> are no words that should never in any circumstances be used by anybody. >> >> Writing I think involves an interrogation of one's personal language and >> the language one hopes to communicate with. It's hard enough without having >> to stumble over what's forbidden. >> >> It doesn't make it easier that what's found offensive differs with time >> and place. >> >> Best, >> >> Mark >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >From: Bob Grumman >> >Sent: Feb 18, 2011 9:45 AM >> >To: NewPoetry List >> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject >> > >> >On 2/18/2011 4:06 AM, Tad Richards wrote: >> >> Should I assume, then, that there's something wrong with finding >> >> language offensive, and that to say it's offensive automatically makes >> >> one a censor? Does this apply to being offended by mediocrities and >> >> sub-mediocrities as well? Or vigilant liberals? >> >. >> >You should assume that whatever you say will offend someone. >> > >> >As for my definition of censor, it is of course not someone who finds >> >some language offensive but someone who then calls for its . . . >> >censorship. It's kind of logical. Then there's the difference between >> >totalitarian censorship and censorship I'm not sure how to name but will >> >call private censorship. Totalitarian censorship is a government's >> >banning certain kinds of speech and writing by law; private censorship >> >is a private individual's banning certain kinds of speech and writing on >> >his private property. I'm against the right to do the first, for the >> >right to do the second. A world in which a person can express his ideas >> >and feelings without worrying about possibly offending some mental >> >cripple somewhere means more to me than a world that puts the feelings >> >of people unable to withstand being called a nasty name or the like >> >above all else. Which doesn't mean, I should not have to say, that I >> >have no problem at all with verbal abuse, which of course does >> >exist--only that my opinion of hyper-offendables and their morally >> >self-righteous protectors is as low as my opinion of the verbally >> >hyper-abusive. And that whether or not some poem is offensive or not is >> >close to being the world's most trivial question, particular next to >> >whether or not it is aesthetically effective or not. >> > >> >--Bob >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >New-Poetry mailing list >> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Feb 18 15:37:56 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 15:37:56 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject Message-ID: <21293054.1298061476447.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 17:44:47 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 14:44:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] A Megaphone: Some Enactments, Some Numbers, and Some Essays about the Continued Usefulness of Crotchless-pants-and-a-machine-gun Feminism Message-ID: <468926.61104.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Just got a copy, and it looks E-x-c-e-l-l-e-n-t -- A MEGAPHONE collects a number of enactments that Juliana Spahr and Stephanie Young did between the years of 2005-2007. In these enactments, they attempted to think with the playful dogmatism of a feminist tradition that they call "crotchless pants and a machine gun" (obviously referencing Valie Export) in order to locate what might still be useful today about the somewhat beleaguered "second wave" feminist traditions. To that end, Spahr and Young lectured in Oulipian slenderized baby talk about figures such as Carolee Schneemann and Marina Abramovic; they counted the numbers of women and men and tansgendered people in various poetry anthologies; and they invited writers from outside the US to talk about being a writer where they live (over seventy-five writers from Puerto Rico to Morocco to Croatia to South Africa to Syria to Micronesia to Korea responded). Also included in A MEGAPHONE are discussions of that always contested relationship between feminism and "experimental" poetry by Julian T. Brolaski, E. Tracy Grinnell, Paul Foster Johnson, Christian Peet, Barbara Jane Reyes, Dale Smith, and A. E. Stallings. The book ends with a (soma)tic writing exercise from CAConrad, one designed to encourage readers and writers to create open, yet still meaningful, feminist alliances. Available @ SPD -- http://www.spdbooks.org/Producte/9781930068483/a-megaphone-some-enactments-some-numbers-and-some-essays-about-t.aspx Enjoy! Amy ********* VIDA: Women in Literary Arts + Interviews Amy's Alias + http://amyking.org/ ******** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Feb 18 18:30:33 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 18:30:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] in lieu of blurbs Message-ID: <8CD9DDAF936B75D-C0C-10C9C@webmail-m027.sysops.aol.com> I know the government is very busy, bigger fish to fry & all that, but... I?m in favor a federal legislation mandating an Ingredients Label on the back of all poetry books in lieu of blurbs. The most frequently used words could be listed: ?Moon: 13; Cow: 11; Grass: 8; Light: 6; all others 5 or less instances'. And each text would be analyzed for content: ?Poeticisms: 14%; Imagery: 11%; Tropes: 7%; Internal Rhyme: 2.7% ; and other rhetorical or quasi-poetic matter and filler'. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 19:09:48 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 17:09:48 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] in lieu of blurbs In-Reply-To: <8CD9DDAF936B75D-C0C-10C9C@webmail-m027.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD9DDAF936B75D-C0C-10C9C@webmail-m027.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 4:30 PM, wrote: > I know the government is very busy, bigger fish to fry & all that, but... > > I?m in favor a federal legislation mandating an Ingredients Label on the > back of all poetry books in lieu of blurbs. The most frequently used words > could be listed: ?Moon: 13; Cow: 11; Grass: 8; Light: 6; all others 5 or > less instances'. And each text would be analyzed for content: ?Poeticisms: > 14%; Imagery: 11%; Tropes: 7%; Internal Rhyme: 2.7% ; and other rhetorical > or quasi-poetic matter and filler'. > > Finnegan > You will have to recalculate to account for packaging and air. -- Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Fri Feb 18 19:17:24 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 19:17:24 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] in lieu of blurbs Message-ID: <8b781.16e0f6a9.3a906614@cs.com> In a message dated 2/18/2011 6:09:55 PM Central Standard Time, cervantes.james at gmail.com writes: > > > > On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 4:30 PM, wrote: > >> I know the government is very busy, bigger fish to fry & all that, >> but... >> >> I?m in favor a federal legislation mandating an Ingredients Label on the >> back of all poetry books in lieu of blurbs. The most frequently used words >> could be listed: ?Moon: 13; Cow: 11; Grass: 8; Light: 6; all others 5 or >> less instances'. And each text would be analyzed for content: ?Poeticisms: >> 14%; Imagery: 11%; Tropes: 7%; Internal Rhyme: 2.7% ; and other >> rhetorical or quasi-poetic matter and filler'. >> >> Finnegan >> > > > You will have to recalculate to account for packaging and air. > > > -- Jim Less that 0.5% iambic pentameter added to retard spoilage. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Fri Feb 18 19:50:47 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 16:50:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry - Women - Words Message-ID: <425876.31138.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> * Why Black History Month Still Matters --http://www.blogher.com/why-black-history-month-still-matters * Pollitt speaks on women?s equality struggles --http://thehullabaloo.com/2011/02/18/pollitt-speaks-on-women%E2%80%99s-equality-struggles/ * Women Stage Massive Protests Across Italy: 'The Sexism Is Intolerable ' (Video) --http://guerillawomentn.blogspot.com/2011/02/women-stage-massive-protests-across.html * Atwood?s Handmaid?s Tale and ?Fun? Feminism --http://www.hercircleezine.com/2011/02/15/atwoods-handmaids-tale-and-fun-feminism/ * Hatem addresses emergence of Islamic feminist movement --http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2011/02/16/27614/ * Poets putting feelings on paper - "The Young Basadzi project has created a platform for young women to come together and share their stories." --http://www.iol.co.za/tonight/news/local/poets-putting-feelings-on-paper-1.1027868 * 'Womanist': Saying Who We Are --http://www.huffingtonpost.com/irene-monroe/womanist-and-saying-who-w_b_817942.html * Join The Feminist Press at CUNY on Facebook --http://www.facebook.com/FeministPress * From Tahrir square to Dakar and back again [video] --http://yfa.awid.org/2011/02/from-tahrir-square-to-dakar-and-back-again-video/ * Positive signs for Islamic feminist movement --http://www.nj.com/news/times/regional/index.ssf?/base/news-22/1298011509314650.xml&coll=5 * My Body is Not a Democracy --http://www.facebook.com/pages/My-Body-is-Not-a-Democracy/127380873999768 *Stand with Planned Parenthood --https://secure.ppaction.org/site/SPageServer?pagename=pp_ppol_ws_I_Stand_with_PP&s_src=standwithppfeb2011_taf&JServSessionIdr004=zfhzie4tv7.app209b * A Megaphone: Some Enactments, Some Numbers, and Some Essays about the Continued Usefulness of Crotchless-pants-and-a-machine-gun Feminism --http://www.spdbooks.org/Producte/9781930068483/a-megaphone-some-enactments-some-numbers-and-some-essays-about-t.aspx ********* VIDA: Women in Literary Arts + Interviews Amy's Alias + http://amyking.org/ ******** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Feb 18 19:53:58 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 19:53:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] in lieu of blurbs In-Reply-To: <8CD9DE57EE3FADA-C0C-116B5@webmail-m027.sysops.aol.com> References: <8b781.16e0f6a9.3a906614@cs.com> <8CD9DE57EE3FADA-C0C-116B5@webmail-m027.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CD9DE6A04FE2B0-C0C-117A3@webmail-m027.sysops.aol.com> Less that 0.5% iambic pentameter added to retard spoilage. -- Testing machines will have to be recalibrated for trace elements. FinneganFinnegan -- Testing machines will have to be recalibrated for trace elements. FinneganFinnegan = -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Fri Feb 18 20:33:36 2011 From: tad at opus40.org (Tad Richards) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 20:33:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject In-Reply-To: References: <27177394.1298055238180.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: I'd say no. Does anyone have the right to not be called out for offensiveness? Because that seems to me what we're talking about here. On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 2:37 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Apart from what offensiveness is and what might offend, does anyone > have a right not to be offended? > > > "What does a poet need an unlisted > number for?" > --George Costanza > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > *Mainly Black > , **Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ;* > *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; * > ***Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; * > ***G(e)nome ; **Winter > Journey ; **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan > ;* > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 12:53 PM, wrote: > >> Hi, Tad. Sorry if I wasn't clear. Of course I'm not saying that you or >> anyone else in this discussion have suggested that the poem should be >> forbidden. The issue I think is about whether an offensive term ever has a >> value sufficient to offset its offensiveness, and whether the word should be >> officially or by tacit agreement banned. That, at any rate, is what I was >> addressing. >> >> It seems to me now that this raises issues beyond poetry, which as media >> go is tiny and usually pretty private. There has been the endless judicial >> battle about "dirty words" in the public media, based on the awareness I >> think that because access is so much easier folks can be blindsided to >> exposure of themselves or their children to things they find offensive. It's >> a tough call. Rating systems I suppose are appropriate as a warning, as long >> as those who administer them take into account the Supreme Court's decision >> about the culture's changing levels of tolerance. More effective for film >> than for television and radio--at least in a theater one usually doesn't >> wander through a film intended for others, whereas the kids will pass >> through the space where adults are watching a tv show, often tuned into well >> after the warning has come down from the screen. >> >> Best, >> >> Mark >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tad Richards >> Sent: Feb 18, 2011 1:08 PM >> To: NewPoetry List >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject >> >> I don't believe the issue of whether or not Hoagland's poem should be >> forbidden ever came up here. >> >> On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 10:42 AM, wrote: >> >>> Right, no public censorship whatever. One's personal use of this or that >>> term or phrase, whether in a poem or in speech, is always a question of >>> manifest intent and appropriateness to the context. Which means that there >>> are no words that should never in any circumstances be used by anybody. >>> >>> Writing I think involves an interrogation of one's personal language and >>> the language one hopes to communicate with. It's hard enough without having >>> to stumble over what's forbidden. >>> >>> It doesn't make it easier that what's found offensive differs with time >>> and place. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> >From: Bob Grumman >>> >Sent: Feb 18, 2011 9:45 AM >>> >To: NewPoetry List >>> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject >>> > >>> >On 2/18/2011 4:06 AM, Tad Richards wrote: >>> >> Should I assume, then, that there's something wrong with finding >>> >> language offensive, and that to say it's offensive automatically makes >>> >> one a censor? Does this apply to being offended by mediocrities and >>> >> sub-mediocrities as well? Or vigilant liberals? >>> >. >>> >You should assume that whatever you say will offend someone. >>> > >>> >As for my definition of censor, it is of course not someone who finds >>> >some language offensive but someone who then calls for its . . . >>> >censorship. It's kind of logical. Then there's the difference between >>> >totalitarian censorship and censorship I'm not sure how to name but will >>> >call private censorship. Totalitarian censorship is a government's >>> >banning certain kinds of speech and writing by law; private censorship >>> >is a private individual's banning certain kinds of speech and writing on >>> >his private property. I'm against the right to do the first, for the >>> >right to do the second. A world in which a person can express his ideas >>> >and feelings without worrying about possibly offending some mental >>> >cripple somewhere means more to me than a world that puts the feelings >>> >of people unable to withstand being called a nasty name or the like >>> >above all else. Which doesn't mean, I should not have to say, that I >>> >have no problem at all with verbal abuse, which of course does >>> >exist--only that my opinion of hyper-offendables and their morally >>> >self-righteous protectors is as low as my opinion of the verbally >>> >hyper-abusive. And that whether or not some poem is offensive or not is >>> >close to being the world's most trivial question, particular next to >>> >whether or not it is aesthetically effective or not. >>> > >>> >--Bob >>> > >>> >_______________________________________________ >>> >New-Poetry mailing list >>> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Fri Feb 18 21:26:41 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 18 Feb 2011 20:26:41 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject In-Reply-To: References: <27177394.1298055238180.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: One can/may call out what one wants to. To be sure. "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home *Mainly Black , **Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ;* *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; * ***Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; * ***G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 7:33 PM, Tad Richards wrote: > I'd say no. Does anyone have the right to not be called out for > offensiveness? Because that seems to me what we're talking about here. > > > On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 2:37 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > >> Apart from what offensiveness is and what might offend, does anyone >> have a right not to be offended? >> >> >> "What does a poet need an unlisted >> number for?" >> --George Costanza >> >> Hal >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> >> halvard at gmail.com >> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >> http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >> >> *Mainly Black >> , **Obras P?blicas >> ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets >> ;* >> *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones >> ; **Tango Bouquet >> ; **Theory of Harmony >> ; * >> ***Rapsodie espagnole >> ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway >> ; **The Sonnet Project >> ; * >> ***G(e)nome ; **Winter >> Journey ; **Eclipse >> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan >> ;* >> *Transparencies & Projections >> * >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 12:53 PM, wrote: >> >>> Hi, Tad. Sorry if I wasn't clear. Of course I'm not saying that you or >>> anyone else in this discussion have suggested that the poem should be >>> forbidden. The issue I think is about whether an offensive term ever has a >>> value sufficient to offset its offensiveness, and whether the word should be >>> officially or by tacit agreement banned. That, at any rate, is what I was >>> addressing. >>> >>> It seems to me now that this raises issues beyond poetry, which as media >>> go is tiny and usually pretty private. There has been the endless judicial >>> battle about "dirty words" in the public media, based on the awareness I >>> think that because access is so much easier folks can be blindsided to >>> exposure of themselves or their children to things they find offensive. It's >>> a tough call. Rating systems I suppose are appropriate as a warning, as long >>> as those who administer them take into account the Supreme Court's decision >>> about the culture's changing levels of tolerance. More effective for film >>> than for television and radio--at least in a theater one usually doesn't >>> wander through a film intended for others, whereas the kids will pass >>> through the space where adults are watching a tv show, often tuned into well >>> after the warning has come down from the screen. >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Mark >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Tad Richards >>> Sent: Feb 18, 2011 1:08 PM >>> To: NewPoetry List >>> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject >>> >>> I don't believe the issue of whether or not Hoagland's poem should be >>> forbidden ever came up here. >>> >>> On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 10:42 AM, wrote: >>> >>>> Right, no public censorship whatever. One's personal use of this or that >>>> term or phrase, whether in a poem or in speech, is always a question of >>>> manifest intent and appropriateness to the context. Which means that there >>>> are no words that should never in any circumstances be used by anybody. >>>> >>>> Writing I think involves an interrogation of one's personal language and >>>> the language one hopes to communicate with. It's hard enough without having >>>> to stumble over what's forbidden. >>>> >>>> It doesn't make it easier that what's found offensive differs with time >>>> and place. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> >>>> Mark >>>> >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> >From: Bob Grumman >>>> >Sent: Feb 18, 2011 9:45 AM >>>> >To: NewPoetry List >>>> >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject >>>> > >>>> >On 2/18/2011 4:06 AM, Tad Richards wrote: >>>> >> Should I assume, then, that there's something wrong with finding >>>> >> language offensive, and that to say it's offensive automatically >>>> makes >>>> >> one a censor? Does this apply to being offended by mediocrities and >>>> >> sub-mediocrities as well? Or vigilant liberals? >>>> >. >>>> >You should assume that whatever you say will offend someone. >>>> > >>>> >As for my definition of censor, it is of course not someone who finds >>>> >some language offensive but someone who then calls for its . . . >>>> >censorship. It's kind of logical. Then there's the difference between >>>> >totalitarian censorship and censorship I'm not sure how to name but >>>> will >>>> >call private censorship. Totalitarian censorship is a government's >>>> >banning certain kinds of speech and writing by law; private censorship >>>> >is a private individual's banning certain kinds of speech and writing >>>> on >>>> >his private property. I'm against the right to do the first, for the >>>> >right to do the second. A world in which a person can express his >>>> ideas >>>> >and feelings without worrying about possibly offending some mental >>>> >cripple somewhere means more to me than a world that puts the feelings >>>> >of people unable to withstand being called a nasty name or the like >>>> >above all else. Which doesn't mean, I should not have to say, that I >>>> >have no problem at all with verbal abuse, which of course does >>>> >exist--only that my opinion of hyper-offendables and their morally >>>> >self-righteous protectors is as low as my opinion of the verbally >>>> >hyper-abusive. And that whether or not some poem is offensive or not >>>> is >>>> >close to being the world's most trivial question, particular next to >>>> >whether or not it is aesthetically effective or not. >>>> > >>>> >--Bob >>>> > >>>> >_______________________________________________ >>>> >New-Poetry mailing list >>>> >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 19 11:09:32 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 11:09:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Subject Matter Versus Technique in Poetry In-Reply-To: <8CD9DDAF936B75D-C0C-10C9C@webmail-m027.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD9DDAF936B75D-C0C-10C9C@webmail-m027.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D5FEB3C.8000708@nut-n-but.net> The most important element in a poem is its subject matter, but the most important determinant of a poem's value is the effectiveness of its author's use of poetic techniques (for non-Philistines). It's sort of like the difference for a play between the stage or other performance area it is performed on and its words. Can't have a play without the first, but other than making a play possible it's near irrelevant. --Bob From jforjames at aol.com Sat Feb 19 12:41:43 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 12:41:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject In-Reply-To: References: <27177394.1298055238180.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <8CD9E7367E1DB97-1A54-175D5@webmail-m043.sysops.aol.com> One thing seems certain: "The Change" is the most controversial poem dealing with tennis/tennis players ever written I was thinking ala the Billie Jean King v. Bobby Riggs match of the 70s, that a seminar could be organized around the subject of the poem, but the featured event would be Tony Hoagland & Claudia Rankine playing a tennis match. Game, set, match. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Tad Richards To: NewPoetry List Sent: Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:33 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject I'd say no. Does anyone have the right to not be called out for offensiveness? Because that seems to me what we're talking about here. On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 2:37 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: Apart from what offensiveness is and what might offend, does anyone have a right not to be offended? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Feb 19 12:53:07 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 11:53:07 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject In-Reply-To: <8CD9E7367E1DB97-1A54-175D5@webmail-m043.sysops.aol.com> References: <27177394.1298055238180.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <8CD9E7367E1DB97-1A54-175D5@webmail-m043.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: With the exception, of course, of John Ashbery's "The Tennis Court Oath," which, as I recall, featured John McEnroe. "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home *Mainly Black , **Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ;* *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; * ***Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; * ***G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 11:41 AM, wrote: > One thing seems certain: "The Change" is the most controversial > poem dealing with tennis/tennis players ever written > I was thinking ala the Billie Jean King v. Bobby Riggs match of the 70s, > that a seminar could be organized around the subject of the poem, but the > featured event would be Tony Hoagland & Claudia Rankine playing a tennis > match. > > Game, set, match. > Finnegan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tad Richards > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:33 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject > > I'd say no. Does anyone have the right to not be called out for > offensiveness? Because that seems to me what we're talking about here. > > On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 2:37 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > >> Apart from what offensiveness is and what might offend, does anyone >> have a right not to be offended? >> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Feb 19 13:07:30 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 19:07:30 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: My translation of "The Ruin" from the O.E. and commentary in my racked, garroted and broken-on-the-wheel ruin of a voice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I dearly advise to listen to the reading of both the translation and the comment, with my thank you to Jesse Glass for having remembered me, Anny Please enjoy! http://qarrtsiluni.com/2011/02/17/the-ruin/ Dedicated to Alan, Geraldine, Anny, Philip, and all the ships at sea. Jess of Japan ================================== -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sat Feb 19 13:20:44 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 12:20:44 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?b?RsOqdGU=?= Message-ID: F?te**Murmuring into the evening, our neighbors? voices spill out into an early night. No evening anymore, night grinds down, a rusty portcullis. They?re up to their old tricks: stuffing their chicken with eggs, then stuffing the chicken into a sheep, then spitted and roasted. We never get invites anymore, not since the first time, when we laughed and laughed. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home *Mainly Black , **Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ;* *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; * ***Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; * ***G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Sat Feb 19 13:50:45 2011 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 10:50:45 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query Message-ID: Hi. I have the CF MacIntyre Mallerme selected from college; I was recently reading some Mary Ann Caws translation essays, and am 1) looking for a collected or complete poems, 2) recently translated. Recommendations? All I find immediately are the Oxford and UC Press volumes. Are there others? You prefer? - -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Sat Feb 19 14:31:14 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 11:31:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] VIDA Count - Links Updated! Message-ID: <754683.65485.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Articles (& comments' sections filled with debate), so far, on The Count -- http://vidaweb.org/category/the-count 1.) The Lack of Female Bylines in Magazines Is Old News - Katha Pollitt @ Slate -- http://www.slate.com/id/2284680/ 2.) Being Female -- Eileen Myles @ The Awl -- http://www.theawl.com/2011/02/being-female#more-71928 3.) How To Publish Women Writers: A Letter to Publishers about the VIDA Count -- Annie Finch @ Her Circle --http://www.hercircleezine.com/2011/02/10/how-to-publish-women-writers-a-letter-to-publishers-about-the-vida-count/ 4.) ?Numbers don?t lie?: Addressing the gender gap in literary publishing -- Jessa Crispin @ PBS --http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/voices/numbers-dont-lie-addressing-the-gender-gap-in-literary-publishing/7161/ 5.) On breaking the literary glass ceiling -- Jessa Crispin and Michael Schaub @ PBS --http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/voices/vida-pt-2/7383/ 6.) Why There?s Gender Bias in Media?and What We Can Do About It -- Margot Magowan @ MS. Magazine --http://msmagazine.com/blog/blog/2011/02/10/why-theres-gender-bias-in-media-and-what-we-can-do-about-it/ 7.) Women in Publishing: What's the Real Story? -- Kjerstin Johnson @ Bitch Magazine --http://bitchmagazine.org/post/women-in-publishing 8.) Women Get Published and Reviewed Less Than Men in Big Magazines, Say Red-and-Blue Pie Charts -- Jim Behrle @ The Hairpin --http://thehairpin.com/2011/02/women-get-published-and-reviewed-less-than-men-in-big-magazines-say-red-and-blue-pie-charts/ 9.) Bitches Be Trippin? -- Roxane Gay @ HTML Giant --http://htmlgiant.com/random/bitches-be-trippin/ 10.) The Sorry State Of Women At Top Magazines -- Anna North @ Jezebel --http://jezebel.com/5750239/the-sorry-state-of-women-at-top-magazines 11.) Gender, publishing, and Poetry magazine -- Christian Wiman @ Poetry Foundation --http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2011/02/gender-publishing-and-poetry-magazine/ 12.) VIDA: The Count Roundup @ The Rumpus --https://therumpus.net/2011/02/vida-the-count-roundup/ 13.) Why It Matters That Fewer Women Are Published in Literary Magazines -- Robin Romm @ Double X --http://www.doublex.com/blog/xxfactor/why-it-matters-fewer-women-are-published-literary-magazines 14.) Women at Work -- Meghan O'Rourke @ Slate --http://www.slate.com/id/2283605/ 15.) The Numbers Speak For Themselves @ Women and Hollywood --http://blogs.indiewire.com/womenandhollywood/archives/the_numbers_speak_for_themselves/ 16.) Do ?etiri puta manje tekstova ?ena! -- BROJKE NE LA?U @ Kultura (in Croatian) --http://www.tportal.hr/kultura/knjizevnost/109858/Do-cetiri-puta-manje-tekstova-zena.html 17.) Submitting Work: A Woman?s Problem? -- Becky Tuch @ Beyond the Margins --http://beyondthemargins.com/2011/02/submitting-work-a-womans-problem/ 18.) On Gender, Numbers, & Submissions -- Rob @ Tin House --http://www.tinhouse.com/blog/6993/on-gender-numbers-submissions.html 19.) A Literary Glass Ceiling? -- Ruth Franklin @ The New Republic --http://www.tnr.com/article/books-and-arts/82930/VIDA-women-writers-magazines-book-reviews **Please send me any I'm missing! ********* VIDA: Women in Literary Arts + Interviews Amy's Alias + http://amyking.org/ ******** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Sat Feb 19 14:32:05 2011 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 14:32:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Subject Matter Versus Technique in Poetry In-Reply-To: <4D5FEB3C.8000708@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CD9DDAF936B75D-C0C-10C9C@webmail-m027.sysops.aol.com> <4D5FEB3C.8000708@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: It must be nice to see art in such simplistic terms. It also must be nice to be so certain. Proud Philistine, Jeff Newberry On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 11:09 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > The most important element in a poem is its subject matter, but the most > important determinant of a poem's value is the effectiveness of its author's > use of poetic techniques (for non-Philistines). > > It's sort of like the difference for a play between the stage or other > performance area it is performed on and its words. Can't have a play > without the first, but other than making a play possible it's near > irrelevant. > > --Bob > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sat Feb 19 14:37:17 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 14:37:17 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query Message-ID: <11127566.1298144237609.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 19 15:33:03 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 15:33:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Subject Matter Versus Technique in Poetry In-Reply-To: References: <8CD9DDAF936B75D-C0C-10C9C@webmail-m027.sysops.aol.com><4D5FEB3C.8000708@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4D6028FF.60707@nut-n-but.net> On 2/19/2011 2:32 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > It must be nice to see art in such simplistic terms. It also must be > nice to be so certain. > > Proud Philistine, > Jeff Newberry I'm sure it's nicer, certainly easier, to assume certainty in someone trying to express a thought in a minimum of words, aphoristically (which means, generally, as a provocative half-truth), and to refute what he says with labels like "simplistic" rather than anything intelligent--like say, an argument, or a counter-aphorism. --Bob From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Sat Feb 19 15:33:13 2011 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 12:33:13 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] I've forwarded info. about this before, but... again... Message-ID: This is one of the ArtGirls (LA), and her efforts are stellar -- major exhibits in persian museums, even tho she's been imprisoned, and all sorts of info. sharing, non-profit effort... http://www.marjanvayghan.com/site/BB.summer.scholarship.html But check for her range of activity!!! -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 19 15:44:51 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 15:44:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Idea Re: the release of Anger In-Reply-To: <4D6028FF.60707@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CD9DDAF936B75D-C0C-10C9C@webmail-m027.sysops.aol.com><4D5FEB3C.8000708@nut-n-but.net> <4D6028FF.60707@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4D602BC3.105@nut-n-but.net> at a forum not allowing candid remarks: a folder labeled "Morons" to which you can move posts that make you angry--for those few here who are politically incorrect enough to experience such a base emotion, even as briefly as I sometimes do --Bob From editor at pavementsaw.org Sat Feb 19 15:49:14 2011 From: editor at pavementsaw.org (David Baratier) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 12:49:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <266163.60920.qm@web45616.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I would highly recommend the Henry Weinfield translation. Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press 321 Empire Street Montpelier OH 43543 http://pavementsaw.org Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 --- On Sat, 2/19/11, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote: > From: new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 7, Issue 60 > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Saturday, February 19, 2011, 7:31 PM > Send New-Poetry mailing list > submissions to > ??? new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > ??? http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' > to > ??? new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > You can reach the person managing the list at > ??? new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more > specific > than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > ???1. Re: Huge Subject (jforjames at aol.com) > ???2. Re: Huge Subject (Halvard Johnson) > ???3. Fwd: My translation of "The Ruin" from > the O.E. and > ? ? ? commentary in my racked, garroted and > broken-on-the-wheel ruin of > ? ? ? a voice (Anny Ballardini) > ???4. F?te (Halvard Johnson) > ???5. mallarme translation query (Catherine > Daly) > ???6. VIDA Count - Links Updated! (amy > king) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 12:41:43 -0500 > From: jforjames at aol.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject > Message-ID: <8CD9E7367E1DB97-1A54-175D5 at webmail-m043.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > One thing seems certain: "The Change" is the most > controversial poem dealing with tennis/tennis players ever > written > > I was thinking ala the Billie Jean King v. Bobby Riggs > match of the 70s, that a seminar could be organized around > the subject of the poem, but the featured event would be > Tony Hoagland & Claudia Rankine playing a tennis match. > > > Game, set, match. > Finnegan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tad Richards > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:33 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject > > > I'd say no. Does anyone have the right to not be called out > for offensiveness? Because that seems to me what we're > talking about here. > > > On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 2:37 PM, Halvard Johnson > wrote: > > Apart from what offensiveness is and what might offend, > does anyone > have a right not to be offended? > > > ? ? > > > > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 11:53:07 -0600 > From: Halvard Johnson > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject > Message-ID: > ??? > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > With the exception, of course, of John Ashbery's > "The Tennis Court Oath," which, as I recall, featured > John McEnroe. > > > "What does a poet need an unlisted > number for?" > ? ? ? ? ? --George Costanza > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > *Mainly Black > , **Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other > Sonnets > ;* > *Organ Harvest with Entrance of > Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; * > ***Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo > Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; * > ***G(e)nome ; > **Winter > Journey ; > **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; > * > *Transparencies & Projections > * > > > > > On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 11:41 AM, > wrote: > > > One thing seems certain: "The Change" is the most > controversial > > poem dealing with tennis/tennis players ever written > >? I was thinking ala the Billie Jean King v. Bobby > Riggs match of the 70s, > > that a seminar could be organized around the subject > of the poem, but the > > featured event would be Tony Hoagland & Claudia > Rankine playing a tennis > > match. > > > > Game, set, match. > > Finnegan > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Tad Richards > > To: NewPoetry List > > Sent: Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:33 pm > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject > > > > I'd say no. Does anyone have the right to not be > called out for > > offensiveness? Because that seems to me what we're > talking about here. > > > > On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 2:37 PM, Halvard Johnson > wrote: > > > >> Apart from what offensiveness is and what might > offend, does anyone > >> have a right not to be offended? > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 19:07:30 +0100 > From: Anny Ballardini > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > &,??? Views" > ??? > Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: My translation of "The Ruin" > from the O.E. > ??? and commentary in my racked, garroted > and broken-on-the-wheel ruin of > ??? a voice > Message-ID: > ??? > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > I dearly advise to listen to the reading of both the > translation and the > comment, with my thank you to Jesse Glass for having > remembered me, Anny > > Please enjoy! > > http://qarrtsiluni.com/2011/02/17/the-ruin/ > > Dedicated to Alan, Geraldine, Anny, Philip, and all the > ships at sea. > > Jess of Japan > > ================================== > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth > to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 12:20:44 -0600 > From: Halvard Johnson > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > &,??? Views" > ??? > Subject: [New-Poetry] F?te > Message-ID: > ??? > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > F?te**Murmuring into the evening, our > neighbors? voices spill out > into an early night. No evening > anymore, night grinds down, > a rusty portcullis. > > They?re up to their old tricks: > stuffing their chicken with eggs, then > stuffing the chicken into a sheep, > then spitted and roasted. We > never get invites anymore, > > not since the first time, > when we laughed > and laughed. > > > > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > *Mainly Black > , **Obras P?blicas > ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other > Sonnets > ;* > *Organ Harvest with Entrance of > Clones > ; **Tango Bouquet > ; **Theory of Harmony > ; * > ***Rapsodie espagnole > ; **Guide to the Tokyo > Subway > ; **The Sonnet Project > ; * > ***G(e)nome ; > **Winter > Journey ; > **Eclipse > ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; > * > *Transparencies & Projections > * > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 10:50:45 -0800 > From: Catherine Daly > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > &,??? Views" > ??? > Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query > Message-ID: > ??? > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Hi.? I have the CF MacIntyre Mallerme selected from > college; I was recently > reading some Mary Ann Caws translation essays, and am 1) > looking for a > collected or complete poems, 2) recently translated. > > Recommendations?? All I find immediately are the > Oxford and UC Press > volumes.? Are there others?? You prefer? > > - > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 11:31:14 -0800 (PST) > From: amy king > To: UB Poetics discussion group , > ??? Discussion of Women's Poetry List ,??? > "NewPoetry: > ??? Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Subject: [New-Poetry] VIDA Count - Links Updated! > Message-ID: <754683.65485.qm at web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > Articles (& comments' sections filled with debate), so > far, on The Count -- > http://vidaweb.org/category/the-count > > > 1.)? The Lack of Female Bylines in Magazines Is Old > News - Katha Pollitt @ Slate > -- http://www.slate.com/id/2284680/ > > 2.)? Being Female -- Eileen Myles @ The Awl > -- http://www.theawl.com/2011/02/being-female#more-71928 > > 3.)???How To Publish Women Writers: A Letter > to Publishers about the VIDA Count > -- Annie Finch @ Her Circle > --http://www.hercircleezine.com/2011/02/10/how-to-publish-women-writers-a-letter-to-publishers-about-the-vida-count/ > > > 4.) ?Numbers don?t lie?: Addressing the gender gap in > literary publishing -- > Jessa Crispin @ PBS > --http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/voices/numbers-dont-lie-addressing-the-gender-gap-in-literary-publishing/7161/ > > > 5.) On breaking the literary glass ceiling -- Jessa Crispin > and Michael Schaub @ > PBS > --http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/voices/vida-pt-2/7383/ > > 6.) Why There?s Gender Bias in Media?and What We Can Do > About It -- Margot > Magowan @ MS. Magazine > --http://msmagazine.com/blog/blog/2011/02/10/why-theres-gender-bias-in-media-and-what-we-can-do-about-it/ > > > 7.) Women in Publishing: What's the Real Story? -- Kjerstin > Johnson @ Bitch > Magazine > > --http://bitchmagazine.org/post/women-in-publishing > > 8.) Women Get Published and Reviewed Less Than Men in Big > Magazines, Say > Red-and-Blue Pie Charts -- Jim Behrle @ The Hairpin > > --http://thehairpin.com/2011/02/women-get-published-and-reviewed-less-than-men-in-big-magazines-say-red-and-blue-pie-charts/ > > > 9.) Bitches Be Trippin? -- Roxane Gay @ HTML Giant > --http://htmlgiant.com/random/bitches-be-trippin/ > > 10.)? The Sorry State Of Women At Top Magazines -- > Anna North @ Jezebel > --http://jezebel.com/5750239/the-sorry-state-of-women-at-top-magazines > > 11.)? Gender, publishing, and Poetry magazine -- > Christian Wiman @ Poetry > Foundation > > --http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2011/02/gender-publishing-and-poetry-magazine/ > > > 12.)? VIDA: The Count Roundup @ The Rumpus > --https://therumpus.net/2011/02/vida-the-count-roundup/ > > 13.)? Why It Matters That Fewer Women Are Published in > Literary Magazines -- > Robin Romm @ Double X > > --http://www.doublex.com/blog/xxfactor/why-it-matters-fewer-women-are-published-literary-magazines > > > 14.)? Women at Work -- Meghan O'Rourke @ Slate > --http://www.slate.com/id/2283605/ > > 15.)? The Numbers Speak For Themselves @ Women and > Hollywood > --http://blogs.indiewire.com/womenandhollywood/archives/the_numbers_speak_for_themselves/ > > > 16.) Do ?etiri puta manje tekstova ?ena! -- BROJKE NE LA?U > @ Kultura (in > Croatian) > > --http://www.tportal.hr/kultura/knjizevnost/109858/Do-cetiri-puta-manje-tekstova-zena.html > > > 17.) Submitting Work: A Woman?s Problem? -- Becky Tuch @ > Beyond the Margins > --http://beyondthemargins.com/2011/02/submitting-work-a-womans-problem/ > > 18.)? On Gender, Numbers, & Submissions -- Rob @ > Tin House > --http://www.tinhouse.com/blog/6993/on-gender-numbers-submissions.html > > 19.)? A Literary Glass Ceiling? --? Ruth Franklin > @ The New Republic > --http://www.tnr.com/article/books-and-arts/82930/VIDA-women-writers-magazines-book-reviews > > > > **Please send me any I'm missing! > > > > > > > > ********* > VIDA:? Women in Literary Arts > + Interviews > > Amy's Alias > + http://amyking.org/ > ******** > > > > ? ? ? > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 7, Issue 60 > ***************************************** > From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Feb 19 15:57:45 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 14:57:45 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Idea Re: the release of Anger In-Reply-To: <4D602BC3.105@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CD9DDAF936B75D-C0C-10C9C@webmail-m027.sysops.aol.com><4D5FEB3C.8000708@nut-n-but.net> <4D6028FF.60707@nut-n-but.net> <4D602BC3.105@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <59AB19B6-7089-4505-9644-1F7FA7D79720@ripon.edu> My folder is labelled "Dustbin," actually, and I've used it for years to filter all my email. I can browse through the bin whenever I feel like it, and when I don't, can delete things wholesale very easily. And no, I'm not going to reveal whose posts from this listserv automatically get sent to the Dustbin . . . ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Feb 19, 2011, at 2:44 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > at a forum not allowing candid remarks: a folder labeled "Morons" to which you can move posts that make you angry--for those few here who are politically incorrect enough to experience such a base emotion, even as briefly as I sometimes do > > --Bob > _______________________________________________ From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 19 16:15:11 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 16:15:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] An Idea Re: the release of Anger In-Reply-To: <59AB19B6-7089-4505-9644-1F7FA7D79720@ripon.edu> References: <8CD9DDAF936B75D-C0C-10C9C@webmail-m027.sysops.aol.com><4D5FEB3C.8000708@nut-n-but.net> <4D6028FF.60707@nut-n-but.net><4D602BC3.105@nut-n-but.net> <59AB19B6-7089-4505-9644-1F7FA7D79720@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4D6032DF.5040907@nut-n-but.net> On 2/19/2011 3:57 PM, David Graham wrote: > My folder is labelled "Dustbin," actually, and I've used it for years to filter all my email. I can browse through the bin whenever I feel like it, and when I don't, can delete things wholesale very easily. Ah, but surely it has to be more satisfactory to give a really hostile name to someone whose post angered you than merely sending it to a "dustbin." And there's also the perhaps unrealistic pleasure of thinking of the moron posts being immortalized in one's moron file. > And no, I'm not going to reveal whose posts from this listserv automatically get sent to the Dustbin . . . > I don't expect to send anyone's posts automatically to my moron folder. As for Dustbins, I won't reveal whose I would hope to be in. --Bob From cvoisine at nmsu.edu Sat Feb 19 16:20:48 2011 From: cvoisine at nmsu.edu (Connie Voisine) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 14:20:48 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] I've forwarded info. about this before, but... again... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: thanks catherine! i am so glad these folks are in the world in which i work, write, have a daughter. thanks! c On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 1:33 PM, Catherine Daly wrote: > This is one of the ArtGirls (LA), and her efforts are stellar -- major > exhibits in persian museums, even tho she's been imprisoned, and all sorts > of info. sharing, non-profit effort... > > http://www.marjanvayghan.com/site/BB.summer.scholarship.html > > But check > for her range of activity!!! > > -- > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Connie Voisine Associate Professor of English New Mexico State University cvoisine at nmsu.edu 575-646-2027 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 19 16:40:52 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 16:40:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Political Poem In-Reply-To: <59AB19B6-7089-4505-9644-1F7FA7D79720@ripon.edu> References: <8CD9DDAF936B75D-C0C-10C9C@webmail-m027.sysops.aol.com><4D5FEB3C.8000708@nut-n-but.net> <4D6028FF.60707@nut-n-but.net><4D602BC3.105@nut-n-but.net> <59AB19B6-7089-4505-9644-1F7FA7D79720@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4D6038E4.4080006@nut-n-but.net> about my alter ego, Poem, but redeemed, I hope, by what I do with the language (however minor): . *Poem's Intractability* . . The rotund smell of electricity . shimmered left of less . as the maple syrup . made up its mind . in the Bearden colors . wearing brighter against . the kindergarten laughter . Sambo was racing behind . while, several darknesses . in front of the scene, . The tigered past . dallied . resolutely into the center . of Poem's intractability, . permanently unrescuable. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sat Feb 19 17:11:14 2011 From: tad at opus40.org (Tad Richards) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 17:11:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Subject Matter Versus Technique in Poetry In-Reply-To: <4D6028FF.60707@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CD9DDAF936B75D-C0C-10C9C@webmail-m027.sysops.aol.com> <4D5FEB3C.8000708@nut-n-but.net> <4D6028FF.60707@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: What was the part you aren't so sure you believe? On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 3:33 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > On 2/19/2011 2:32 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > >> It must be nice to see art in such simplistic terms. It also must be nice >> to be so certain. >> >> Proud Philistine, >> Jeff Newberry >> > I'm sure it's nicer, certainly easier, to assume certainty in someone > trying to express a thought in a minimum of words, aphoristically (which > means, generally, as a provocative half-truth), and to refute what he says > with labels like "simplistic" rather than anything intelligent--like say, an > argument, or a counter-aphorism. > > > --Bob > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sat Feb 19 17:13:34 2011 From: tad at opus40.org (Tad Richards) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 17:13:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject In-Reply-To: <8CD9E7367E1DB97-1A54-175D5@webmail-m043.sysops.aol.com> References: <27177394.1298055238180.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <8CD9E7367E1DB97-1A54-175D5@webmail-m043.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: What about "The Tennis Court Oath"? On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 12:41 PM, wrote: > One thing seems certain: "The Change" is the most controversial > poem dealing with tennis/tennis players ever written > I was thinking ala the Billie Jean King v. Bobby Riggs match of the 70s, > that a seminar could be organized around the subject of the poem, but the > featured event would be Tony Hoagland & Claudia Rankine playing a tennis > match. > > Game, set, match. > Finnegan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Tad Richards > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:33 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject > > I'd say no. Does anyone have the right to not be called out for > offensiveness? Because that seems to me what we're talking about here. > > On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 2:37 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > >> Apart from what offensiveness is and what might offend, does anyone >> have a right not to be offended? >> >> >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sat Feb 19 17:13:51 2011 From: tad at opus40.org (Tad Richards) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 17:13:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject In-Reply-To: References: <27177394.1298055238180.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <8CD9E7367E1DB97-1A54-175D5@webmail-m043.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Hal beat me to it. On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 5:13 PM, Tad Richards wrote: > What about "The Tennis Court Oath"? > > On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 12:41 PM, wrote: > >> One thing seems certain: "The Change" is the most controversial >> poem dealing with tennis/tennis players ever written >> I was thinking ala the Billie Jean King v. Bobby Riggs match of the 70s, >> that a seminar could be organized around the subject of the poem, but the >> featured event would be Tony Hoagland & Claudia Rankine playing a tennis >> match. >> >> Game, set, match. >> Finnegan >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tad Richards >> To: NewPoetry List >> Sent: Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:33 pm >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject >> >> I'd say no. Does anyone have the right to not be called out for >> offensiveness? Because that seems to me what we're talking about here. >> >> On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 2:37 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: >> >>> Apart from what offensiveness is and what might offend, does anyone >>> have a right not to be offended? >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Feb 19 17:54:56 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 16:54:56 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject In-Reply-To: References: <27177394.1298055238180.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <8CD9E7367E1DB97-1A54-175D5@webmail-m043.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1512E858-813D-4B6A-BED5-8FE9E603C80A@ripon.edu> Hal & Tad beat me to it. But I love the passage in "The Tennis Court Oath" where McEnroe throws down his racket and calls the chair umpire "a knave, a rascal, an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggarly, three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-liver?d, action-taking knave; a whoreson, glass-gazing, superserviceable, finical rogue; a one-trunk-inheriting slave; one that wouldst be a bawd, in way of good service, and art nothing but the composition of a knave, beggar, coward, pandar, and the son and heir of a mongrel bitch: one whom I will beat into clamorous whining if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition. . . ." One of the best oaths in the poem, I've always thought. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Feb 19, 2011, at 4:13 PM, Tad Richards wrote: > Hal beat me to it. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 19 18:18:38 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 18:18:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Subject Matter Versus Technique in Poetry In-Reply-To: References: <8CD9DDAF936B75D-C0C-10C9C@webmail-m027.sysops.aol.com><4D5FEB3C.8000708@nut-n-but.net><4D6028FF.60707@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4D604FCE.4020201@nut-n-but.net> On 2/19/2011 5:11 PM, Tad Richards wrote: > What was the part you aren't so sure you believe? To answer in the style of a true New-Poetrianm, I'm not sure. --Bob From halvard at gmail.com Sat Feb 19 19:07:03 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 18:07:03 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject In-Reply-To: <1512E858-813D-4B6A-BED5-8FE9E603C80A@ripon.edu> References: <27177394.1298055238180.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <8CD9E7367E1DB97-1A54-175D5@webmail-m043.sysops.aol.com> <1512E858-813D-4B6A-BED5-8FE9E603C80A@ripon.edu> Message-ID: Definitely not McEnroe at his most rococo, however. "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home *Mainly Black , **Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ;* *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; * ***Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; * ***G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 4:54 PM, David Graham wrote: > Hal & Tad beat me to it. But I love the passage in "The Tennis Court Oath" > where McEnroe throws down his racket and calls the chair umpire "a knave, > a rascal, an eater of broken meats; a base, proud, shallow, beggarly, > three-suited, hundred-pound, filthy, worsted-stocking knave; a lily-liver?d, > action-taking knave; a whoreson, glass-gazing, superserviceable, finical > rogue; a one-trunk-inheriting slave; one that wouldst be a bawd, in way of > good service, and art nothing but the composition of a knave, beggar, > coward, pandar, and the son and heir of a mongrel bitch: one whom I will > beat into clamorous whining if thou deniest the least syllable of thy > addition. . . ." > > One of the best oaths in the poem, I've always thought. > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Feb 19, 2011, at 4:13 PM, Tad Richards wrote: > > Hal beat me to it. > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sat Feb 19 19:58:14 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 19:58:14 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query Message-ID: <25534328.1298163494380.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Sacrifices an awful lot to rhyme, tho, and smooths out the rough spots. -----Original Message----- >From: David Baratier >Sent: Feb 19, 2011 3:49 PM >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query > >I would highly recommend the Henry Weinfield translation. > >Be well > >David Baratier, Editor > >Pavement Saw Press >321 Empire Street >Montpelier OH 43543 >http://pavementsaw.org > >Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at >http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 > > >--- On Sat, 2/19/11, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote: > >> From: new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 7, Issue 60 >> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> Date: Saturday, February 19, 2011, 7:31 PM >> Send New-Poetry mailing list >> submissions to >> ??? new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> ??? http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' >> to >> ??? new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> ??? new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more >> specific >> than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> ???1. Re: Huge Subject (jforjames at aol.com) >> ???2. Re: Huge Subject (Halvard Johnson) >> ???3. Fwd: My translation of "The Ruin" from >> the O.E. and >> ? ? ? commentary in my racked, garroted and >> broken-on-the-wheel ruin of >> ? ? ? a voice (Anny Ballardini) >> ???4. F?te (Halvard Johnson) >> ???5. mallarme translation query (Catherine >> Daly) >> ???6. VIDA Count - Links Updated! (amy >> king) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 12:41:43 -0500 >> From: jforjames at aol.com >> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject >> Message-ID: <8CD9E7367E1DB97-1A54-175D5 at webmail-m043.sysops.aol.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> >> One thing seems certain: "The Change" is the most >> controversial poem dealing with tennis/tennis players ever >> written >> >> I was thinking ala the Billie Jean King v. Bobby Riggs >> match of the 70s, that a seminar could be organized around >> the subject of the poem, but the featured event would be >> Tony Hoagland & Claudia Rankine playing a tennis match. >> >> >> Game, set, match. >> Finnegan >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tad Richards >> To: NewPoetry List >> Sent: Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:33 pm >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject >> >> >> I'd say no. Does anyone have the right to not be called out >> for offensiveness? Because that seems to me what we're >> talking about here. >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 2:37 PM, Halvard Johnson >> wrote: >> >> Apart from what offensiveness is and what might offend, >> does anyone >> have a right not to be offended? >> >> >> ? ? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 11:53:07 -0600 >> From: Halvard Johnson >> To: NewPoetry List >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject >> Message-ID: >> ??? >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> With the exception, of course, of John Ashbery's >> "The Tennis Court Oath," which, as I recall, featured >> John McEnroe. >> >> >> "What does a poet need an unlisted >> number for?" >> ? ? ? ? ? --George Costanza >> >> Hal >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> >> halvard at gmail.com >> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >> http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >> >> *Mainly Black >> , **Obras P?blicas >> ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other >> Sonnets >> ;* >> *Organ Harvest with Entrance of >> Clones >> ; **Tango Bouquet >> ; **Theory of Harmony >> ; * >> ***Rapsodie espagnole >> ; **Guide to the Tokyo >> Subway >> ; **The Sonnet Project >> ; * >> ***G(e)nome ; >> **Winter >> Journey ; >> **Eclipse >> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; >> * >> *Transparencies & Projections >> * >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 11:41 AM, >> wrote: >> >> > One thing seems certain: "The Change" is the most >> controversial >> > poem dealing with tennis/tennis players ever written >> >? I was thinking ala the Billie Jean King v. Bobby >> Riggs match of the 70s, >> > that a seminar could be organized around the subject >> of the poem, but the >> > featured event would be Tony Hoagland & Claudia >> Rankine playing a tennis >> > match. >> > >> > Game, set, match. >> > Finnegan >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Tad Richards >> > To: NewPoetry List >> > Sent: Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:33 pm >> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject >> > >> > I'd say no. Does anyone have the right to not be >> called out for >> > offensiveness? Because that seems to me what we're >> talking about here. >> > >> > On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 2:37 PM, Halvard Johnson >> wrote: >> > >> >> Apart from what offensiveness is and what might >> offend, does anyone >> >> have a right not to be offended? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New-Poetry mailing list >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 19:07:30 +0100 >> From: Anny Ballardini >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >> &,??? Views" >> ??? >> Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: My translation of "The Ruin" >> from the O.E. >> ??? and commentary in my racked, garroted >> and broken-on-the-wheel ruin of >> ??? a voice >> Message-ID: >> ??? >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> I dearly advise to listen to the reading of both the >> translation and the >> comment, with my thank you to Jesse Glass for having >> remembered me, Anny >> >> Please enjoy! >> >> http://qarrtsiluni.com/2011/02/17/the-ruin/ >> >> Dedicated to Alan, Geraldine, Anny, Philip, and all the >> ships at sea. >> >> Jess of Japan >> >> ================================== >> >> >> >> -- >> Anny Ballardini >> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth >> to a dancing >> star! >> Friedrich Nietzsche >> >> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >> Giovenale >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 12:20:44 -0600 >> From: Halvard Johnson >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >> &,??? Views" >> ??? >> Subject: [New-Poetry] F?te >> Message-ID: >> ??? >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> F?te**Murmuring into the evening, our >> neighbors? voices spill out >> into an early night. No evening >> anymore, night grinds down, >> a rusty portcullis. >> >> They?re up to their old tricks: >> stuffing their chicken with eggs, then >> stuffing the chicken into a sheep, >> then spitted and roasted. We >> never get invites anymore, >> >> not since the first time, >> when we laughed >> and laughed. >> >> >> >> >> Hal >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> >> halvard at gmail.com >> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >> http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >> >> *Mainly Black >> , **Obras P?blicas >> ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other >> Sonnets >> ;* >> *Organ Harvest with Entrance of >> Clones >> ; **Tango Bouquet >> ; **Theory of Harmony >> ; * >> ***Rapsodie espagnole >> ; **Guide to the Tokyo >> Subway >> ; **The Sonnet Project >> ; * >> ***G(e)nome ; >> **Winter >> Journey ; >> **Eclipse >> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; >> * >> *Transparencies & Projections >> * >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 5 >> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 10:50:45 -0800 >> From: Catherine Daly >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >> &,??? Views" >> ??? >> Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query >> Message-ID: >> ??? >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> Hi.? I have the CF MacIntyre Mallerme selected from >> college; I was recently >> reading some Mary Ann Caws translation essays, and am 1) >> looking for a >> collected or complete poems, 2) recently translated. >> >> Recommendations?? All I find immediately are the >> Oxford and UC Press >> volumes.? Are there others?? You prefer? >> >> - >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 6 >> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 11:31:14 -0800 (PST) >> From: amy king >> To: UB Poetics discussion group , >> ??? Discussion of Women's Poetry List ,??? >> "NewPoetry: >> ??? Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> >> Subject: [New-Poetry] VIDA Count - Links Updated! >> Message-ID: <754683.65485.qm at web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Articles (& comments' sections filled with debate), so >> far, on The Count -- >> http://vidaweb.org/category/the-count >> >> >> 1.)? The Lack of Female Bylines in Magazines Is Old >> News - Katha Pollitt @ Slate >> -- http://www.slate.com/id/2284680/ >> >> 2.)? Being Female -- Eileen Myles @ The Awl >> -- http://www.theawl.com/2011/02/being-female#more-71928 >> >> 3.)???How To Publish Women Writers: A Letter >> to Publishers about the VIDA Count >> -- Annie Finch @ Her Circle >> --http://www.hercircleezine.com/2011/02/10/how-to-publish-women-writers-a-letter-to-publishers-about-the-vida-count/ >> >> >> 4.) ?Numbers don?t lie?: Addressing the gender gap in >> literary publishing -- >> Jessa Crispin @ PBS >> --http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/voices/numbers-dont-lie-addressing-the-gender-gap-in-literary-publishing/7161/ >> >> >> 5.) On breaking the literary glass ceiling -- Jessa Crispin >> and Michael Schaub @ >> PBS >> --http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/voices/vida-pt-2/7383/ >> >> 6.) Why There?s Gender Bias in Media?and What We Can Do >> About It -- Margot >> Magowan @ MS. Magazine >> --http://msmagazine.com/blog/blog/2011/02/10/why-theres-gender-bias-in-media-and-what-we-can-do-about-it/ >> >> >> 7.) Women in Publishing: What's the Real Story? -- Kjerstin >> Johnson @ Bitch >> Magazine >> >> --http://bitchmagazine.org/post/women-in-publishing >> >> 8.) Women Get Published and Reviewed Less Than Men in Big >> Magazines, Say >> Red-and-Blue Pie Charts -- Jim Behrle @ The Hairpin >> >> --http://thehairpin.com/2011/02/women-get-published-and-reviewed-less-than-men-in-big-magazines-say-red-and-blue-pie-charts/ >> >> >> 9.) Bitches Be Trippin? -- Roxane Gay @ HTML Giant >> --http://htmlgiant.com/random/bitches-be-trippin/ >> >> 10.)? The Sorry State Of Women At Top Magazines -- >> Anna North @ Jezebel >> --http://jezebel.com/5750239/the-sorry-state-of-women-at-top-magazines >> >> 11.)? Gender, publishing, and Poetry magazine -- >> Christian Wiman @ Poetry >> Foundation >> >> --http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2011/02/gender-publishing-and-poetry-magazine/ >> >> >> 12.)? VIDA: The Count Roundup @ The Rumpus >> --https://therumpus.net/2011/02/vida-the-count-roundup/ >> >> 13.)? Why It Matters That Fewer Women Are Published in >> Literary Magazines -- >> Robin Romm @ Double X >> >> --http://www.doublex.com/blog/xxfactor/why-it-matters-fewer-women-are-published-literary-magazines >> >> >> 14.)? Women at Work -- Meghan O'Rourke @ Slate >> --http://www.slate.com/id/2283605/ >> >> 15.)? The Numbers Speak For Themselves @ Women and >> Hollywood >> --http://blogs.indiewire.com/womenandhollywood/archives/the_numbers_speak_for_themselves/ >> >> >> 16.) Do ?etiri puta manje tekstova ?ena! -- BROJKE NE LA?U >> @ Kultura (in >> Croatian) >> >> --http://www.tportal.hr/kultura/knjizevnost/109858/Do-cetiri-puta-manje-tekstova-zena.html >> >> >> 17.) Submitting Work: A Woman?s Problem? -- Becky Tuch @ >> Beyond the Margins >> --http://beyondthemargins.com/2011/02/submitting-work-a-womans-problem/ >> >> 18.)? On Gender, Numbers, & Submissions -- Rob @ >> Tin House >> --http://www.tinhouse.com/blog/6993/on-gender-numbers-submissions.html >> >> 19.)? A Literary Glass Ceiling? --? Ruth Franklin >> @ The New Republic >> --http://www.tnr.com/article/books-and-arts/82930/VIDA-women-writers-magazines-book-reviews >> >> >> >> **Please send me any I'm missing! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ********* >> VIDA:? Women in Literary Arts >> + Interviews >> >> Amy's Alias >> + http://amyking.org/ >> ******** >> >> >> >> ? ? ? >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 7, Issue 60 >> ***************************************** >> > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From junction at earthlink.net Sat Feb 19 20:33:11 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 20:33:11 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query Message-ID: <18297635.1298165591386.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Bottom line is that Mallarme is pretty close to impossible to translate. One of the great joys of reading him is the elegance of the language. Maintaining the rhyme is obviously in itself in service to that elegance, and Henry does note his reasons for some occasionally very odd choices, which is better than what most translators of anything give us. One of the great experiences of my reading life was reading through L'Apres Midi d'un Faun, not your average quick read. It probably wasn't much harder for me with my then college French than it would be for a native speaker. Worth every second--transformative. Best, Mark -----Original Message----- >From: David Baratier >Sent: Feb 19, 2011 3:49 PM >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query > >I would highly recommend the Henry Weinfield translation. > >Be well > >David Baratier, Editor > >Pavement Saw Press >321 Empire Street >Montpelier OH 43543 >http://pavementsaw.org > >Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at >http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 > > >--- On Sat, 2/19/11, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu wrote: > >> From: new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 7, Issue 60 >> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> Date: Saturday, February 19, 2011, 7:31 PM >> Send New-Poetry mailing list >> submissions to >> ??? new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> ??? http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' >> to >> ??? new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> ??? new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more >> specific >> than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> ???1. Re: Huge Subject (jforjames at aol.com) >> ???2. Re: Huge Subject (Halvard Johnson) >> ???3. Fwd: My translation of "The Ruin" from >> the O.E. and >> ? ? ? commentary in my racked, garroted and >> broken-on-the-wheel ruin of >> ? ? ? a voice (Anny Ballardini) >> ???4. F?te (Halvard Johnson) >> ???5. mallarme translation query (Catherine >> Daly) >> ???6. VIDA Count - Links Updated! (amy >> king) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 12:41:43 -0500 >> From: jforjames at aol.com >> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject >> Message-ID: <8CD9E7367E1DB97-1A54-175D5 at webmail-m043.sysops.aol.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> >> One thing seems certain: "The Change" is the most >> controversial poem dealing with tennis/tennis players ever >> written >> >> I was thinking ala the Billie Jean King v. Bobby Riggs >> match of the 70s, that a seminar could be organized around >> the subject of the poem, but the featured event would be >> Tony Hoagland & Claudia Rankine playing a tennis match. >> >> >> Game, set, match. >> Finnegan >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tad Richards >> To: NewPoetry List >> Sent: Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:33 pm >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject >> >> >> I'd say no. Does anyone have the right to not be called out >> for offensiveness? Because that seems to me what we're >> talking about here. >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 2:37 PM, Halvard Johnson >> wrote: >> >> Apart from what offensiveness is and what might offend, >> does anyone >> have a right not to be offended? >> >> >> ? ? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 11:53:07 -0600 >> From: Halvard Johnson >> To: NewPoetry List >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject >> Message-ID: >> ??? >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> With the exception, of course, of John Ashbery's >> "The Tennis Court Oath," which, as I recall, featured >> John McEnroe. >> >> >> "What does a poet need an unlisted >> number for?" >> ? ? ? ? ? --George Costanza >> >> Hal >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> >> halvard at gmail.com >> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >> http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >> >> *Mainly Black >> , **Obras P?blicas >> ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other >> Sonnets >> ;* >> *Organ Harvest with Entrance of >> Clones >> ; **Tango Bouquet >> ; **Theory of Harmony >> ; * >> ***Rapsodie espagnole >> ; **Guide to the Tokyo >> Subway >> ; **The Sonnet Project >> ; * >> ***G(e)nome ; >> **Winter >> Journey ; >> **Eclipse >> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; >> * >> *Transparencies & Projections >> * >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 11:41 AM, >> wrote: >> >> > One thing seems certain: "The Change" is the most >> controversial >> > poem dealing with tennis/tennis players ever written >> >? I was thinking ala the Billie Jean King v. Bobby >> Riggs match of the 70s, >> > that a seminar could be organized around the subject >> of the poem, but the >> > featured event would be Tony Hoagland & Claudia >> Rankine playing a tennis >> > match. >> > >> > Game, set, match. >> > Finnegan >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Tad Richards >> > To: NewPoetry List >> > Sent: Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:33 pm >> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject >> > >> > I'd say no. Does anyone have the right to not be >> called out for >> > offensiveness? Because that seems to me what we're >> talking about here. >> > >> > On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 2:37 PM, Halvard Johnson >> wrote: >> > >> >> Apart from what offensiveness is and what might >> offend, does anyone >> >> have a right not to be offended? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New-Poetry mailing list >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 19:07:30 +0100 >> From: Anny Ballardini >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >> &,??? Views" >> ??? >> Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: My translation of "The Ruin" >> from the O.E. >> ??? and commentary in my racked, garroted >> and broken-on-the-wheel ruin of >> ??? a voice >> Message-ID: >> ??? >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> I dearly advise to listen to the reading of both the >> translation and the >> comment, with my thank you to Jesse Glass for having >> remembered me, Anny >> >> Please enjoy! >> >> http://qarrtsiluni.com/2011/02/17/the-ruin/ >> >> Dedicated to Alan, Geraldine, Anny, Philip, and all the >> ships at sea. >> >> Jess of Japan >> >> ================================== >> >> >> >> -- >> Anny Ballardini >> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth >> to a dancing >> star! >> Friedrich Nietzsche >> >> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >> Giovenale >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 12:20:44 -0600 >> From: Halvard Johnson >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >> &,??? Views" >> ??? >> Subject: [New-Poetry] F?te >> Message-ID: >> ??? >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> F?te**Murmuring into the evening, our >> neighbors? voices spill out >> into an early night. No evening >> anymore, night grinds down, >> a rusty portcullis. >> >> They?re up to their old tricks: >> stuffing their chicken with eggs, then >> stuffing the chicken into a sheep, >> then spitted and roasted. We >> never get invites anymore, >> >> not since the first time, >> when we laughed >> and laughed. >> >> >> >> >> Hal >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> >> halvard at gmail.com >> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >> http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >> >> *Mainly Black >> , **Obras P?blicas >> ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other >> Sonnets >> ;* >> *Organ Harvest with Entrance of >> Clones >> ; **Tango Bouquet >> ; **Theory of Harmony >> ; * >> ***Rapsodie espagnole >> ; **Guide to the Tokyo >> Subway >> ; **The Sonnet Project >> ; * >> ***G(e)nome ; >> **Winter >> Journey ; >> **Eclipse >> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; >> * >> *Transparencies & Projections >> * >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 5 >> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 10:50:45 -0800 >> From: Catherine Daly >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >> &,??? Views" >> ??? >> Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query >> Message-ID: >> ??? >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> Hi.? I have the CF MacIntyre Mallerme selected from >> college; I was recently >> reading some Mary Ann Caws translation essays, and am 1) >> looking for a >> collected or complete poems, 2) recently translated. >> >> Recommendations?? All I find immediately are the >> Oxford and UC Press >> volumes.? Are there others?? You prefer? >> >> - >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 6 >> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 11:31:14 -0800 (PST) >> From: amy king >> To: UB Poetics discussion group , >> ??? Discussion of Women's Poetry List ,??? >> "NewPoetry: >> ??? Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> >> Subject: [New-Poetry] VIDA Count - Links Updated! >> Message-ID: <754683.65485.qm at web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Articles (& comments' sections filled with debate), so >> far, on The Count -- >> http://vidaweb.org/category/the-count >> >> >> 1.)? The Lack of Female Bylines in Magazines Is Old >> News - Katha Pollitt @ Slate >> -- http://www.slate.com/id/2284680/ >> >> 2.)? Being Female -- Eileen Myles @ The Awl >> -- http://www.theawl.com/2011/02/being-female#more-71928 >> >> 3.)???How To Publish Women Writers: A Letter >> to Publishers about the VIDA Count >> -- Annie Finch @ Her Circle >> --http://www.hercircleezine.com/2011/02/10/how-to-publish-women-writers-a-letter-to-publishers-about-the-vida-count/ >> >> >> 4.) ?Numbers don?t lie?: Addressing the gender gap in >> literary publishing -- >> Jessa Crispin @ PBS >> --http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/voices/numbers-dont-lie-addressing-the-gender-gap-in-literary-publishing/7161/ >> >> >> 5.) On breaking the literary glass ceiling -- Jessa Crispin >> and Michael Schaub @ >> PBS >> --http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/voices/vida-pt-2/7383/ >> >> 6.) Why There?s Gender Bias in Media?and What We Can Do >> About It -- Margot >> Magowan @ MS. Magazine >> --http://msmagazine.com/blog/blog/2011/02/10/why-theres-gender-bias-in-media-and-what-we-can-do-about-it/ >> >> >> 7.) Women in Publishing: What's the Real Story? -- Kjerstin >> Johnson @ Bitch >> Magazine >> >> --http://bitchmagazine.org/post/women-in-publishing >> >> 8.) Women Get Published and Reviewed Less Than Men in Big >> Magazines, Say >> Red-and-Blue Pie Charts -- Jim Behrle @ The Hairpin >> >> --http://thehairpin.com/2011/02/women-get-published-and-reviewed-less-than-men-in-big-magazines-say-red-and-blue-pie-charts/ >> >> >> 9.) Bitches Be Trippin? -- Roxane Gay @ HTML Giant >> --http://htmlgiant.com/random/bitches-be-trippin/ >> >> 10.)? The Sorry State Of Women At Top Magazines -- >> Anna North @ Jezebel >> --http://jezebel.com/5750239/the-sorry-state-of-women-at-top-magazines >> >> 11.)? Gender, publishing, and Poetry magazine -- >> Christian Wiman @ Poetry >> Foundation >> >> --http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2011/02/gender-publishing-and-poetry-magazine/ >> >> >> 12.)? VIDA: The Count Roundup @ The Rumpus >> --https://therumpus.net/2011/02/vida-the-count-roundup/ >> >> 13.)? Why It Matters That Fewer Women Are Published in >> Literary Magazines -- >> Robin Romm @ Double X >> >> --http://www.doublex.com/blog/xxfactor/why-it-matters-fewer-women-are-published-literary-magazines >> >> >> 14.)? Women at Work -- Meghan O'Rourke @ Slate >> --http://www.slate.com/id/2283605/ >> >> 15.)? The Numbers Speak For Themselves @ Women and >> Hollywood >> --http://blogs.indiewire.com/womenandhollywood/archives/the_numbers_speak_for_themselves/ >> >> >> 16.) Do ?etiri puta manje tekstova ?ena! -- BROJKE NE LA?U >> @ Kultura (in >> Croatian) >> >> --http://www.tportal.hr/kultura/knjizevnost/109858/Do-cetiri-puta-manje-tekstova-zena.html >> >> >> 17.) Submitting Work: A Woman?s Problem? -- Becky Tuch @ >> Beyond the Margins >> --http://beyondthemargins.com/2011/02/submitting-work-a-womans-problem/ >> >> 18.)? On Gender, Numbers, & Submissions -- Rob @ >> Tin House >> --http://www.tinhouse.com/blog/6993/on-gender-numbers-submissions.html >> >> 19.)? A Literary Glass Ceiling? --? Ruth Franklin >> @ The New Republic >> --http://www.tnr.com/article/books-and-arts/82930/VIDA-women-writers-magazines-book-reviews >> >> >> >> **Please send me any I'm missing! >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ********* >> VIDA:? Women in Literary Arts >> + Interviews >> >> Amy's Alias >> + http://amyking.org/ >> ******** >> >> >> >> ? ? ? >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 7, Issue 60 >> ***************************************** >> > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 19 20:49:24 2011 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 17:49:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query In-Reply-To: <18297635.1298165591386.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <18297635.1298165591386.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <470152.16221.qm@web35508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Transformative indeed. Amicalement, Alex ? www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ________________________________ From: "junction at earthlink.net" To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sun, February 20, 2011 2:33:11 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query Bottom line is that Mallarme is pretty close to impossible to translate. One of the great joys of reading him is the elegance of the language. Maintaining the rhyme is obviously in itself in service to that elegance, and Henry does note his reasons for some occasionally very odd choices, which is better than what most translators of anything give us. One of the great experiences of my reading life was reading through L'Apres Midi d'un Faun, not your average quick read. It probably wasn't much harder for me with my then college French than it would be for a native speaker. Worth every second--transformative. Best, Mark -----Original Message----- >From: David Baratier >Sent: Feb 19, 2011 3:49 PM >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query > >I would highly recommend the Henry Weinfield translation. > >Be well > >David Baratier, Editor > >Pavement Saw Press >321 Empire Street >Montpelier OH 43543 >http://pavementsaw.org > >Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at >http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 > > >--- On Sat, 2/19/11, new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > wrote: > >> From: new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> Subject: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 7, Issue 60 >> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> Date: Saturday, February 19, 2011, 7:31 PM >> Send New-Poetry mailing list >> submissions to >> ??? new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >> ??? http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' >> to >> ??? new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> You can reach the person managing the list at >> ??? new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more >> specific >> than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> ???1. Re: Huge Subject (jforjames at aol.com) >> ???2. Re: Huge Subject (Halvard Johnson) >> ???3. Fwd: My translation of "The Ruin" from >> the O.E. and >> ? ? ? commentary in my racked, garroted and >> broken-on-the-wheel ruin of >> ? ? ? a voice (Anny Ballardini) >> ???4. F?te (Halvard Johnson) >> ???5. mallarme translation query (Catherine >> Daly) >> ???6. VIDA Count - Links Updated! (amy >> king) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 12:41:43 -0500 >> From: jforjames at aol.com >> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject >> Message-ID: <8CD9E7367E1DB97-1A54-175D5 at webmail-m043.sysops.aol.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> >> One thing seems certain: "The Change" is the most >> controversial poem dealing with tennis/tennis players ever >> written >> >> I was thinking ala the Billie Jean King v. Bobby Riggs >> match of the 70s, that a seminar could be organized around >> the subject of the poem, but the featured event would be >> Tony Hoagland & Claudia Rankine playing a tennis match. >> >> >> Game, set, match. >> Finnegan >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tad Richards >> To: NewPoetry List >> Sent: Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:33 pm >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject >> >> >> I'd say no. Does anyone have the right to not be called out >> for offensiveness? Because that seems to me what we're >> talking about here. >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 2:37 PM, Halvard Johnson >> wrote: >> >> Apart from what offensiveness is and what might offend, >> does anyone >> have a right not to be offended? >> >> >> ? ? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 11:53:07 -0600 >> From: Halvard Johnson >> To: NewPoetry List >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject >> Message-ID: >> ??? >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> With the exception, of course, of John Ashbery's >> "The Tennis Court Oath," which, as I recall, featured >> John McEnroe. >> >> >> "What does a poet need an unlisted >>? number for?" >> ? ? ? ? ? --George Costanza >> >> Hal >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> >> halvard at gmail.com >> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >> http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >> >> *Mainly >>Black >> >> , **Obras >>P?blicas >> >> ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other >>Sonnets >>> >> ;* >> *Organ Harvest with Entrance of >>Clones >>> >> ; **Tango >>Bouquet >> >> ; **Theory of >>Harmony >> >> ; * >> ***Rapsodie >>espagnole >> >> ; **Guide to the Tokyo >>Subway >>> >> ; **The Sonnet >>Project >> >> ; * >> ***G(e)nome ; >> **Winter >> Journey ; >> **Eclipse >> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; >> * >> *Transparencies & Projections >> * >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 11:41 AM, >> wrote: >> >> > One thing seems certain: "The Change" is the most >> controversial >> > poem dealing with tennis/tennis players ever written >> >? I was thinking ala the Billie Jean King v. Bobby >> Riggs match of the 70s, >> > that a seminar could be organized around the subject >> of the poem, but the >> > featured event would be Tony Hoagland & Claudia >> Rankine playing a tennis >> > match. >> > >> > Game, set, match. >> > Finnegan >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: Tad Richards >> > To: NewPoetry List >> > Sent: Fri, Feb 18, 2011 8:33 pm >> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Huge Subject >> > >> > I'd say no. Does anyone have the right to not be >> called out for >> > offensiveness? Because that seems to me what we're >> talking about here. >> > >> > On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 2:37 PM, Halvard Johnson >> wrote: >> > >> >> Apart from what offensiveness is and what might >> offend, does anyone >> >> have a right not to be offended? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New-Poetry mailing list >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> > >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 19:07:30 +0100 >> From: Anny Ballardini >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >> &,??? Views" >> ??? >> Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: My translation of "The Ruin" >> from the O.E. >> ??? and commentary in my racked, garroted >> and broken-on-the-wheel ruin of >> ??? a voice >> Message-ID: >> ??? >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> I dearly advise to listen to the reading of both the >> translation and the >> comment, with my thank you to Jesse Glass for having >> remembered me, Anny >> >> Please enjoy! >> >> http://qarrtsiluni.com/2011/02/17/the-ruin/ >> >> Dedicated to Alan, Geraldine, Anny, Philip, and all the >> ships at sea. >> >> Jess of Japan >> >> ================================== >> >> >> >> -- >> Anny Ballardini >> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth >> to a dancing >> star! >> Friedrich Nietzsche >> >> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >> Giovenale >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 12:20:44 -0600 >> From: Halvard Johnson >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >> &,??? Views" >> ??? >> Subject: [New-Poetry] F?te >> Message-ID: >> ??? >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> F?te**Murmuring into the evening, our >> neighbors? voices spill out >> into an early night. No evening >> anymore, night grinds down, >> a rusty portcullis. >> >> They?re up to their old tricks: >> stuffing their chicken with eggs, then >> stuffing the chicken into a sheep, >> then spitted and roasted. We >> never get invites anymore, >> >> not since the first time, >> when we laughed >> and laughed. >> >> >> >> >> Hal >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> >> halvard at gmail.com >> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >> http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home >> >> *Mainly >>Black >> >> , **Obras >>P?blicas >> >> ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other >>Sonnets >>> >> ;* >> *Organ Harvest with Entrance of >>Clones >>> >> ; **Tango >>Bouquet >> >> ; **Theory of >>Harmony >> >> ; * >> ***Rapsodie >>espagnole >> >> ; **Guide to the Tokyo >>Subway >>> >> ; **The Sonnet >>Project >> >> ; * >> ***G(e)nome ; >> **Winter >> Journey ; >> **Eclipse >> ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; >> * >> *Transparencies & Projections >> * >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 5 >> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 10:50:45 -0800 >> From: Catherine Daly >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >> &,??? Views" >> ??? >> Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query >> Message-ID: >> ??? >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >> >> Hi.? I have the CF MacIntyre Mallerme selected from >> college; I was recently >> reading some Mary Ann Caws translation essays, and am 1) >> looking for a >> collected or complete poems, 2) recently translated. >> >> Recommendations?? All I find immediately are the >> Oxford and UC Press >> volumes.? Are there others?? You prefer? >> >> - >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 6 >> Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 11:31:14 -0800 (PST) >> From: amy king >> To: UB Poetics discussion group , >> ??? Discussion of Women's Poetry List ,??? >> "NewPoetry: >> ??? Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> >> Subject: [New-Poetry] VIDA Count - Links Updated! >> Message-ID: <754683.65485.qm at web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" >> >> Articles (& comments' sections filled with debate), so >> far, on The Count -- >> http://vidaweb.org/category/the-count >> >> >> 1.)? The Lack of Female Bylines in Magazines Is Old >> News - Katha Pollitt @ Slate >> -- http://www.slate.com/id/2284680/ >> >> 2.)? Being Female -- Eileen Myles @ The Awl >> -- http://www.theawl.com/2011/02/being-female#more-71928 >> >> 3.)???How To Publish Women Writers: A Letter >> to Publishers about the VIDA Count >> -- Annie Finch @ Her Circle >>--http://www.hercircleezine.com/2011/02/10/how-to-publish-women-writers-a-letter-to-publishers-about-the-vida-count/ >>/ >> >> >> 4.) ?Numbers don?t lie?: Addressing the gender gap in >> literary publishing -- >> Jessa Crispin @ PBS >>--http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/voices/numbers-dont-lie-addressing-the-gender-gap-in-literary-publishing/7161/ >>/ >> >> >> 5.) On breaking the literary glass ceiling -- Jessa Crispin >> and Michael Schaub @ >> PBS >> --http://www.pbs.org/wnet/need-to-know/voices/vida-pt-2/7383/ >> >> 6.) Why There?s Gender Bias in Media?and What We Can Do >> About It -- Margot >> Magowan @ MS. Magazine >>--http://msmagazine.com/blog/blog/2011/02/10/why-theres-gender-bias-in-media-and-what-we-can-do-about-it/ >>/ >> >> >> 7.) Women in Publishing: What's the Real Story? -- Kjerstin >> Johnson @ Bitch >> Magazine >> >> --http://bitchmagazine.org/post/women-in-publishing >> >> 8.) Women Get Published and Reviewed Less Than Men in Big >> Magazines, Say >> Red-and-Blue Pie Charts -- Jim Behrle @ The Hairpin >> >>--http://thehairpin.com/2011/02/women-get-published-and-reviewed-less-than-men-in-big-magazines-say-red-and-blue-pie-charts/ >>/ >> >> >> 9.) Bitches Be Trippin? -- Roxane Gay @ HTML Giant >> --http://htmlgiant.com/random/bitches-be-trippin/ >> >> 10.)? The Sorry State Of Women At Top Magazines -- >> Anna North @ Jezebel >> --http://jezebel.com/5750239/the-sorry-state-of-women-at-top-magazines >> >> 11.)? Gender, publishing, and Poetry magazine -- >> Christian Wiman @ Poetry >> Foundation >> >>--http://www.poetryfoundation.org/harriet/2011/02/gender-publishing-and-poetry-magazine/ >>/ >> >> >> 12.)? VIDA: The Count Roundup @ The Rumpus >> --https://therumpus.net/2011/02/vida-the-count-roundup/ >> >> 13.)? Why It Matters That Fewer Women Are Published in >> Literary Magazines -- >> Robin Romm @ Double X >> >>--http://www.doublex.com/blog/xxfactor/why-it-matters-fewer-women-are-published-literary-magazines >>s >> >> >> 14.)? Women at Work -- Meghan O'Rourke @ Slate >> --http://www.slate.com/id/2283605/ >> >> 15.)? The Numbers Speak For Themselves @ Women and >> Hollywood >>--http://blogs.indiewire.com/womenandhollywood/archives/the_numbers_speak_for_themselves/ >>/ >> >> >> 16.) Do ?etiri puta manje tekstova ?ena! -- BROJKE NE LA?U >> @ Kultura (in >> Croatian) >> >>--http://www.tportal.hr/kultura/knjizevnost/109858/Do-cetiri-puta-manje-tekstova-zena.html >>l >> >> >> 17.) Submitting Work: A Woman?s Problem? -- Becky Tuch @ >> Beyond the Margins >> --http://beyondthemargins.com/2011/02/submitting-work-a-womans-problem/ >> >> 18.)? On Gender, Numbers, & Submissions -- Rob @ >> Tin House >> --http://www.tinhouse.com/blog/6993/on-gender-numbers-submissions.html >> >> 19.)? A Literary Glass Ceiling? --? Ruth Franklin >> @ The New Republic >>--http://www.tnr.com/article/books-and-arts/82930/VIDA-women-writers-magazines-book-reviews >>s >> >> >> >> **Please send me any I'm missing! >> >> >> >> >> >>? >> >> ********* >> VIDA:? Women in Literary Arts >> + Interviews >> >> Amy's Alias >> + http://amyking.org/ >> ******** >> >> >> >> ? ? ? >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 7, Issue 60 >> ***************************************** >> > > >? ? ? >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 19 20:55:36 2011 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 17:55:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] newpo host? In-Reply-To: <18297635.1298165591386.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <18297635.1298165591386.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <937721.4273.qm@web35501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello New Poets, By the way, what's the association of New Po to the institution whose server hosts the listserv,?ie Virginia Tech? I'll explain the question soon enough (drumroll).... Amicalement, Alex -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Sat Feb 19 21:08:08 2011 From: tad at opus40.org (Tad Richards) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 21:08:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: My translation of "The Ruin" from the O.E. and commentary in my racked, garroted and broken-on-the-wheel ruin of a voice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wonderful. On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 1:07 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > I dearly advise to listen to the reading of both the translation and the > comment, with my thank you to Jesse Glass for having remembered me, Anny > > Please enjoy! > > http://qarrtsiluni.com/2011/02/17/the-ruin/ > > Dedicated to Alan, Geraldine, Anny, Philip, and all the ships at sea. > > Jess of Japan > > ================================== > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sat Feb 19 21:17:30 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 21:17:30 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: My translation of "The Ruin" from the O.E. and commentary in my racked, garroted and broken-on-the-wheel ruin of a voice Message-ID: <1754715.1298168250703.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Sat Feb 19 21:25:40 2011 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 18:25:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: My translation of "The Ruin" from the O.E. and commentary in my racked, garroted and broken-on-the-wheel ruin of a voice In-Reply-To: <1754715.1298168250703.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <1754715.1298168250703.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <123407.29480.qm@web35507.mail.mud.yahoo.com> ditto 2: the return. ? www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ________________________________ From: "junction at earthlink.net" To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sun, February 20, 2011 3:17:30 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fwd: My translation of "The Ruin" from the O.E. and commentary in my racked, garroted and broken-on-the-wheel ruin of a voice ditto -----Original Message----- >From: Tad Richards >Sent: Feb 19, 2011 9:08 PM >To: NewPoetry List >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fwd: My translation of "The Ruin" from the O.E. and >commentary in my racked, garroted and broken-on-the-wheel ruin of a voice > > >Wonderful. > > >On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 1:07 PM, Anny Ballardini >wrote: > >I dearly advise to listen to the reading of both the translation and the >comment, with my thank you to Jesse Glass for having remembered me, Anny >> >> >> >>Please enjoy! >> >>http://qarrtsiluni.com/2011/02/17/the-ruin/ >> >>Dedicated to Alan, Geraldine, Anny, Philip, and all the ships at sea. >> >>Jess of Japan >> >>================================== >> >> >> >>-- >>Anny Ballardini >>http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >>http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >>http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >>http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >>I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! >>Friedrich Nietzsche >> >>? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >>vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >>Giovenale >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sat Feb 19 22:32:59 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 22:32:59 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query Message-ID: <190b03.3f0eeaaf.3a91e56b@cs.com> St?phane Mallarm?: Windows Sick of the ward, sick of the fetid smell Rising against the curtains' tiresome white Toward the tired Christ nailed to the bare wall, The sick man stretches, slyly stands upright, And shuffles, more to see the common stones Blaze with sun than to fire his own decay, Presses a grizzled face gray as his bones Against the window tinged with dying day, And greedy for the azure licks his tongue Across dry lips as if he might regain That downy cheek he brushed when he was young, And, with a long kiss, soils the golden pane. Drunk, he forgets the holy oils; he smiles, Bidding the broths, the clocks, the bed good-bye; Forgets to cough. Dusk bleeds across the tiles, And in a sunset gorged with light his eye Discerns the gilded galleys, fine as swans, Heavy with spices on a saffron sea, Etching their burnished flash of lines upon The lovely nonchalance of memory. Just so, disgusted with complacent Man, Whose appetites devour him, whose sole quest Is to fetch home what scraps of filth he can To please the hag with urchins at her breast, I rush, I cling to all those windows where One turns his back on life; transformed by light, Washed by eternal dew and swathed in air, Reflected in the dawn of the Infinite, I see myself an angel! die and seem --Let this be Art! Let it be Mysticism!-- To be reborn, wearing my crown of dreams In the lush beauty of an antique heaven! But no. The Here and Now lord over me, Seeking me out no matter where I fly, And the rank vomit of stupidity Stops up my nose before the azure sky. Is there a way for Me, who know such sorrow, To break this glass soiled by humanity, To fly on featherless wings into tomorrow-- Risking the plunge into Eternity? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Sun Feb 20 10:57:27 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 08:57:27 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Digital Poetry: A Revolution In Publishing?" Message-ID: Digital Poetry: A Revolution In Publishing?, Jason Nelson "In the simplest terms Digital Poems are born from the combination of technology and poetry, with writers using all multi-media elements as critical texts. Sounds, images, movement, video, interface/interactivity and words are combined to create new poetic forms and experiences." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jason-nelson/digital-poetry_b_824768.html#s242066&title=game_game_game -- Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 20 11:19:51 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 17:19:51 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query In-Reply-To: <190b03.3f0eeaaf.3a91e56b@cs.com> References: <190b03.3f0eeaaf.3a91e56b@cs.com> Message-ID: *Sigh*** *My soul, towards your brow where O calm sister,*** An autumn dreams, blotched by reddish smudges, And towards the errant sky of your angelic eye Climbs: as in a melancholy garden the true sigh Of a white jet of water towards the Azure! ? To the Azure that October stirred, pale, pure, That in the vast pools mirrors infinite languor, And over dead water, where the leaves wander The wind, in russet throes, dig their cold furrow, Allows a long ray of yellow light to flow. from the following site: http://www.poetryintranslation.com/PITBR/French/Mallarme.htm On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 4:32 AM, wrote: > *St?phane Mallarm?: Windows* > > Sick of the ward, sick of the fetid smell > Rising against the curtains' tiresome white > Toward the tired Christ nailed to the bare wall, > The sick man stretches, slyly stands upright, > > And shuffles, more to see the common stones > Blaze with sun than to fire his own decay, > Presses a grizzled face gray as his bones > Against the window tinged with dying day, > > And greedy for the azure licks his tongue > Across dry lips as if he might regain > That downy cheek he brushed when he was young, > And, with a long kiss, soils the golden pane. > > Drunk, he forgets the holy oils; he smiles, > Bidding the broths, the clocks, the bed good-bye; > Forgets to cough. Dusk bleeds across the tiles, > And in a sunset gorged with light his eye > > Discerns the gilded galleys, fine as swans, > Heavy with spices on a saffron sea, > Etching their burnished flash of lines upon > The lovely nonchalance of memory. > > Just so, disgusted with complacent Man, > Whose appetites devour him, whose sole quest > Is to fetch home what scraps of filth he can > To please the hag with urchins at her breast, > > I rush, I cling to all those windows where > One turns his back on life; transformed by light, > Washed by eternal dew and swathed in air, > Reflected in the dawn of the Infinite, > > I see myself an angel! die and seem > --Let this be Art! Let it be Mysticism!-- > To be reborn, wearing my crown of dreams > In the lush beauty of an antique heaven! > > But no. The Here and Now lord over me, > Seeking me out no matter where I fly, > And the rank vomit of stupidity > Stops up my nose before the azure sky. > > Is there a way for Me, who know such sorrow, > To break this glass soiled by humanity, > To fly on featherless wings into tomorrow-- > Risking the plunge into Eternity? > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From msullivan at metrocast.net Sun Feb 20 12:55:02 2011 From: msullivan at metrocast.net (SULLIVAN) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 12:55:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Digital Poetry: A Revolution In Publishing?" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <30967B954DFC41DFA6CBCC98863EE3D2@MaryAnnPC> Digital Poetry has been around for quite a while, though, I'm sorry to say, it was appreciated first in Europe, not the United States. See the BBC's page published in 2001. http://www.bbc.co.uk/arts/poetry/ondisplay/ Some very innovative digital poetry is being done by an Italian poet, Caterina Davinio. The Tower Journal is committed to publishing digital poetry. You can see samples in the first issue, in the current issue, and in other issues as well. Some are interactive games, some are code poems, some video poems, some animated poems, and so forth. http://www.towerjournal.com Mary Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: James Cervantes To: new-poetry Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2011 10:57 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] "Digital Poetry: A Revolution In Publishing?" Digital Poetry: A Revolution In Publishing?, Jason Nelson "In the simplest terms Digital Poems are born from the combination of technology and poetry, with writers using all multi-media elements as critical texts. Sounds, images, movement, video, interface/interactivity and words are combined to create new poetic forms and experiences." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jason-nelson/digital-poetry_b_824768.html#s242066&title=game_game_game -- Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ccooley at overdomain.com Sun Feb 20 13:06:02 2011 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 10:06:02 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query Message-ID: That's beautiful work, Sam. > Date: Sat, 19 Feb 2011 22:32:59 EST > From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query > > St?phane Mallarm?: Windows > > Sick of the ward, sick of the fetid smell > Rising against the curtains' tiresome white > Toward the tired Christ nailed to the bare wall, > The sick man stretches, slyly stands upright, > > And shuffles, more to see the common stones > Blaze with sun than to fire his own decay, > Presses a grizzled face gray as his bones > Against the window tinged with dying day, > > And greedy for the azure licks his tongue > Across dry lips as if he might regain > That downy cheek he brushed when he was young, > And, with a long kiss, soils the golden pane. > > Drunk, he forgets the holy oils; he smiles, > Bidding the broths, the clocks, the bed good-bye; > Forgets to cough. Dusk bleeds across the tiles, > And in a sunset gorged with light his eye > > Discerns the gilded galleys, fine as swans, > Heavy with spices on a saffron sea, > Etching their burnished flash of lines upon > The lovely nonchalance of memory. > > Just so, disgusted with complacent Man, > Whose appetites devour him, whose sole quest > Is to fetch home what scraps of filth he can > To please the hag with urchins at her breast, > > I rush, I cling to all those windows where > One turns his back on life; transformed by light, > Washed by eternal dew and swathed in air, > Reflected in the dawn of the Infinite, > > I see myself an angel! die and seem > --Let this be Art! Let it be Mysticism!-- > To be reborn, wearing my crown of dreams > In the lush beauty of an antique heaven! > > But no. The Here and Now lord over me, > Seeking me out no matter where I fly, > And the rank vomit of stupidity > Stops up my nose before the azure sky. > > Is there a way for Me, who know such sorrow, > To break this glass soiled by humanity, > To fly on featherless wings into tomorrow-- > Risking the plunge into Eternity? > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Feb 20 13:50:15 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 13:50:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] James Geary on metaphors on Studio 360 Message-ID: <8CD9F4625906DD5-18B4-1E148@webmail-m012.sysops.aol.com> I announced Geary's book I IS AN OTHER a couple weeks ago. Here he's interveriewed by Kurt Anderson... http://www.studio360.org/2011/feb/18/metaphors-are-his-sun-moon-and-stars/ Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Feb 20 15:00:08 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 15:00:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetica: Latin American Poetry, Part 1 Message-ID: <8CD9F4FE8B2A6C0-18B4-1EB2D@webmail-m012.sysops.aol.com> Poetica http://www.abc.net.au/rn/poetica/ Latin American Poetry, Part 1 A celebration of some of the most loved and best known Latin American poets of the 20th century. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Feb 20 15:20:55 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 15:20:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetica: Latin American Poetry, Part 1 Message-ID: <15559177.1298233255433.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun Feb 20 16:32:45 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 16:32:45 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query Message-ID: <526a3.427e3c80.3a92e27d@cs.com> In a message dated 2/20/2011 2:34:43 PM Central Standard Time, ccooley at overdomain.com writes: > > > That's beautiful work, Sam. > > > > Thanks. From many years ago. Never found another one of his I thought I could do. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Feb 20 16:43:00 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 16:43:00 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query Message-ID: <33137692.1298238180344.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Sun Feb 20 16:47:36 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 16:47:36 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query Message-ID: <52e7a.1abadba.3a92e5f8@cs.com> In a message dated 2/20/2011 3:43:08 PM Central Standard Time, junction at earthlink.net writes: > > Yup. That's one of the few. > > What I meant by untranslateable (speaking of almost all the rest) wasn't > that one couldn't make an acceptable poem in English hewing fairly colose to > the original, but that more than most poets what makes him who he is is > inseparable from the language and the history behind it. This is true of all > translation, of course, but it's a matter of degree. I do agree. The best argument for verse translation I ever heard was on the affective side: try to create an effect in the English reader similar to what the original does to a reader in the original language. I think Miller Williams, my old teacher and a pretty good translator (Parra, Belli), said that. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Feb 20 18:07:54 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 18:07:54 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query Message-ID: <892083.1298243274593.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Feb 20 18:02:14 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 18:02:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query Message-ID: <12020003.1298242934414.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 20 18:30:03 2011 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 15:30:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query In-Reply-To: <892083.1298243274593.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <892083.1298243274593.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <591628.62693.qm@web35508.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Mark, "vierge" is also the term used to describe a sheet of paper that has not been written on yet, which is relevant to its use as an adjective qualifying "aujourd'hui": that probably gets lost in translation, but perhaps one might think of alternatives.?This fact?does help justify the choice of the term "virginal" rather than "virgin", it seems to me. Amicalement, Alex ? www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ________________________________ From: "junction at earthlink.net" To: NewPoetry List Sent: Mon, February 21, 2011 12:07:54 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query Yup. This is somewhat controversial--see Venuti, for instance. But it seems to me that the function of the poem in the original language is to be a poem and the same should hold true in the target language. Although that begs a whole lot of questions, like, that the audience the poem is written for might approximate some speakers of the original language when the poem was written but really is a fiction of the author's, and in any case is very different from the translator who in turn is different from the translator's target audience. It's why translators pull their hair out. The question of verse and what it means i itself is also at issue. Rhyme has a different cultural meaning in languages where it's difficult to avoid, as opposed to English. Ditto form. If one were to translate a Mallarme sonnet into English with rhyme and a syllable count instead of a defined meter it would seem like lazy work, and the form itself would reference a history including Shakespeare and Wordsworth, whereas a sonnet in French is always in dialogue with Ronsard, etc. My own practice is to suggest the formalism of the original (I'm not alone in this) rather than sacrifice what nuance and sometimes denotation I can get without it. Here's an example, the first line of one of Mallarme's best, a sonnet named for its first line: Le vierge, le vivace et le bel aujourd'hui. Henry Weinfield translates the line as "The virginal vibrant and beautiful dawn." "Dawn," because he needs the word to rhyme with "flown." What I see as the problems: Vierge is not virginal (spelled the same way in both languages). Virginal is more limited in meaning. We don't say virginal olive oil when we mean unsullied, new, fresh. So Virgin would seem the right choice. But Weinfield is trying to needs his syllable count, and he's trying for a classic alexandrine, which requires not just a syllable count, but, as Mallarme has written it, four "feet" of three syllables, short short long. So, that extra syllable. And he knows that the alliteration is essential to the music. He could have helped himself by choosing a different word for vivace, which doesn't mean vibrant so much as full of elan vital. "Alive" would be a better choice. But the big problem is aujord'hui/dawn. First, the sound. The word in French fairly explodes at us, with the brittle force of ice (the poem is "about" a swan trapped in ice, and its landscape is cold glaring light). Dawn is way too soft. It's also just wrong. Aujourd'hui--today--is grammatically weird in French--the virgin today? whereas dawn is perfectly civilized. Mallarme is making a point, and it goes back to the meaning within the meaning, the history of the word. Literally, aujourd'hui means "on the day of today," this day, no other. And that's the poem's concern--this is a poem about time as a moment in time. I can't overemphasize how surprising the Mallarme line is. I translated this poem once, if what I did could be called a translation. It must have been one of the first things I tried to translate. The first line I came up with was "The virgin, alive and lovely today." Better than the Weinfield--at least it doesn't eliminate as many possibilities--but I didn't have to worry about alexandrines or rhyme. I've mercifully forgotten the rest of my translation and I don't think I have a copy. Best, Mark -----Original Message----- >From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com >Sent: Feb 20, 2011 4:47 PM >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query > >In a message dated 2/20/2011 3:43:08 PM Central Standard Time, >junction at earthlink.net writes: > > > >>Yup. That's one of the few. >> >>What I meant by untranslateable (speaking of almost all the rest) wasn't that >>one couldn't make an acceptable poem in English hewing fairly colose to the >>original, but that more than most poets what makes him who he is is inseparable >>from the language and the history behind it. This is true of all translation, of >>course, but it's a matter of degree. >> I do agree.? The best argument for verse translation I ever heard was on the affective side: try to create an effect in the English reader similar to what the original does to a reader in the original language. I think Miller Williams, my old teacher and a pretty good translator (Parra, Belli), said that. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From alexdickow9 at yahoo.com Sun Feb 20 18:26:59 2011 From: alexdickow9 at yahoo.com (Alexander Dickow) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 15:26:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query In-Reply-To: <12020003.1298242934414.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <12020003.1298242934414.JavaMail.root@elwamui-rubis.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <311385.98184.qm@web35503.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hello Mark, Can you provide the full reference for the Venuti? I'm interested in the implications of translating into formal verse. Personally, I?like to translate, where possible, alexandrines into iambic pentameter: this produces a great many problems and is debatable, but arguably, the cultural role of the alexandrine in France?and?the pentameter in the Anglo-Saxon world is homologous (homologous, not analogous: I sometimes think of translation as akin to topologically?mapping?points on the surface of a banana onto the surface of an apple --?finding a homologous space in a linguistic system that's configured differently, as opposed to looking for "similarities"). Debatably, alexandrines tend to sound sludgy in English, although I've read some of Auden's that are quite fine. Thoroughly agreed in re Mallarm?'s Le vierge..., incidentally. The weirdness of the jarring "aujourd'hui" is akin to Mallarm?'s striking use of enjambments and rejets, a common device in France from 1873 onward (cf. Rimbaud), but particularly violent in M's work. Apollinaire's neosymbolist "Lul de Faltenin" derives its first lines directly from this sort of device: Sir?nes j'ai ramp? vers vos Grottes.... (literal trans.: "Sirens I've?crawled toward your / Caves...") Mallarm? also loves geminated consonants: "Noir roc courrouc? par la bise" (I won't even try to translate that off the top of my head). Makes?reading him a?constantly sensual?experience, in my opinion, contrary to the clich?d view that he's a hyper-cerebral poet.?If he is, he's cerebral like Hopkins, who's as sensual as they come, if you ask me. The sexual meanings at work in Apollinaire's poem might ultimately be closer to a Mallarmean sensibility than Guillaume's generally given credit for.? Amicalement, Alex ? www.alexdickow.net/blog/ les mots! ah quel d?sert ? la fin merveilleux. -- Henri Droguet ________________________________ From: "junction at earthlink.net" To: NewPoetry List Sent: Mon, February 21, 2011 12:02:14 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query Yup. This is somewhat controversial--see Venuti, for instance. But it seems to me that the function of the poem in the original language is to be a poem and the same should hold true in the target language. Although that begs a whole lot of questions, like, that the audience the poem is written for might approximate some speakers of the original language when the poem was written but really is a fiction of the author's, and in any case is very different from the translator who in turn is different from the translator's target audience. It's why translators pull their hair out. The question of verse and what it means i itself is also at issue. Rhyme has a different cultural meaning in languages where it's difficult to avoid, as opposed to English. Ditto form. If one were to translate a Mallarme sonnet into English with rhyme and a syllable count instead of a defined meter it would seem like lazy work, and the form itself would reference a history including Shakespeare and Wordsworth, whereas a sonnet in French is always in dialogue with Ronsard, etc. My own practice is to suggest the formalism of the original (I'm not alone in this) rather than sacrifice what nuance and sometimes denotation I can get without it. Here's an example, the first line of one of Mallarme's best, a sonnet named for its first line: Le vierge, le vivace et le bel aujourd'hui. Henry Weinfield translates the line as "The virginal vibrant and beautiful dawn." "Dawn," because he needs the word to rhyme with "flown." What I see as the problems: Vierge is not virginal (spelled the same way in both languages). Virginal is more limited in meaning. We don't say virginal olive oil when we mean unsullied, new, fresh. So Virgin would seem the right choice. But Weinfield is trying to needs his syllable count, and he's trying for a classic alexandrine, which requires not just a syllable count, but, as Mallarme has written it, four "feet" of three syllables, short short long. So, that extra syllable. And he knows that the alliteration is essential to the music. He could have helped himself by choosing a different word for vivace, which doesn't mean vibrant so much as full of elan vital. "Alive" would be a better choice. But the big problem is aujord'hui/dawn. First, the sound. The word in French fairly explodes at us, with the brittle force of ice (the poem is "about" a swan trapped in ice, and its landscape is cold glaring light). Dawn is way too soft. It's also just wrong. Aujourd'hui--today--is grammatically weird in French--the virgin today? whereas dawn is perfectly civilized. Mallarme is making a point, and it goes back to the meaning within the meaning, the history of the word. Literally, aujourd'hui means "on the day of today," this day, no other. And that's the poem's concern--this is a poem about time as a moment in time. I can't overemphasize how surprising the Mallarme line is. I translated this poem once, if what I did could be called a translation. It must have been one of the first things I tried to translate. The first line I came up with was "The virgin, alive and lovely today." Better than the Weinfield--at least it doesn't eliminate as many possibilities--but I didn't have to worry about alexandrines or rhyme. I've mercifully forgotten the rest of my translation and I don't think I have a copy. Best, Mark -----Original Message----- >From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com >Sent: Feb 20, 2011 4:47 PM >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query > >In a message dated 2/20/2011 3:43:08 PM Central Standard Time, >junction at earthlink.net writes: > > > >>Yup. That's one of the few. >> >>What I meant by untranslateable (speaking of almost all the rest) wasn't that >>one couldn't make an acceptable poem in English hewing fairly colose to the >>original, but that more than most poets what makes him who he is is inseparable >>from the language and the history behind it. This is true of all translation, of >>course, but it's a matter of degree. >> I do agree.? The best argument for verse translation I ever heard was on the affective side: try to create an effect in the English reader similar to what the original does to a reader in the original language. I think Miller Williams, my old teacher and a pretty good translator (Parra, Belli), said that. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Feb 20 18:57:45 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2011 18:57:45 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query Message-ID: <10092547.1298246266480.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hybrid.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Mon Feb 21 09:42:54 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 09:42:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Poem of the Week- Wyatt Prunty In-Reply-To: <20110220201804.8904@web001.roc2.bluetie.com> References: <20110220201804.8904@web001.roc2.bluetie.com> Message-ID: <8CD9FECC1D7358A-15D0-53073@webmail-m024.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: PoemoftheWeek at poemoftheweek.org To: andrewmcfadyenketchum at poemoftheweek.org Sent: Sun, Feb 20, 2011 8:18 pm Subject: Poem of the Week- Wyatt Prunty Dear PoemoftheWeek Subscriber, l This week PoemoftheWeek.org features three poems from Wyatt Prunty's most recent collection of poems, The Lover's Guide to Trapping as well as an audio interview on the Kasey Kowars Show, an audio recording of Mr. Prunty reading a poem at Slate.com, and a brief essay on Mr. Prunty's life and work from The New Georgia Encyclopedia. I hope you enjoy. l My best, l Andrew McFadyen-Ketchum, Founder & Editor l Contact us at AndrewMcFadyenKetchum at PoemoftheWeek.org l Donate to PoemoftheWeek.org at http://poemoftheweek.org/id294.html. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Mon Feb 21 09:45:25 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 09:45:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Profile: David Harsent Message-ID: <8CD9FED1BBF4FF4-15D0-53119@webmail-m024.sysops.aol.com> http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/2011/feb/21/david-harsent-life-writing-poetry David Harsent: A life in writing 'I was rather taken with the fact that being a poet could also involve having a mulatto mistress and catching the clap' A few months ago David Harsent found himself talking to a fellow poet at a book launch. "And this guy kept going on about how dark my work is. Of course I'd heard that before, but I was actually in rather a good mood as I'd just delivered my new book and so I sort of nodded and shrugged and tried to keep it light. But he wouldn't let it drop. 'It really is dark,' he said, sort of leaning into me. 'Really, really dark'." Since his 1967 debut, A Violent Country, Harsent's work has often been characterised as disturbing and emotionally extreme. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Mon Feb 21 09:54:53 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 08:54:53 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Profile: David Harsent In-Reply-To: <8CD9FED1BBF4FF4-15D0-53119@webmail-m024.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD9FED1BBF4FF4-15D0-53119@webmail-m024.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Mulatto! Now there's a word we don't hear every day. "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home *Mainly Black , **Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ;* *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; * ***Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; * ***G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 8:45 AM, wrote: > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/2011/feb/21/david-harsent-life-writing-poetry > > David Harsent: A life in writing > 'I was rather taken with the fact that being a poet could also involve > having a mulatto mistress and catching the clap' > > A few months ago David Harsent found himself talking to a fellow poet at a > book launch. "And this guy kept going on about how dark my work is. Of > course I'd heard that before, but I was actually in rather a good mood as > I'd just delivered my new book and so I sort of nodded and shrugged and > tried to keep it light. But he wouldn't let it drop. 'It really is dark,' he > said, sort of leaning into me. 'Really, really dark'." Since his 1967 debut, > A Violent Country, Harsent's work has often been characterised as disturbing > and emotionally extreme. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Mon Feb 21 10:35:51 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 10:35:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Profile: David Harsent In-Reply-To: References: <8CD9FED1BBF4FF4-15D0-53119@webmail-m024.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CD9FF42785E884-15D0-53F3D@webmail-m024.sysops.aol.com> Yes, and a very odd lead quote to that article. New Orleans has mulatto heritage. And it's a great town to get a 'muffaletta'... http://www.trazzler.com/trips/central-grocery-muffaletta-in-new-orleans-la-70116 Still two hours till lunch time, Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry List Sent: Mon, Feb 21, 2011 9:54 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Profile: David Harsent Mulatto! Now there's a word we don't hear every day. "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home Mainly Black, Obras P?blicas; The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets; Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones; Tango Bouquet; Theory of Harmony; Rapsodie espagnole; Guide to the Tokyo Subway; The Sonnet Project; G(e)nome; Winter Journey; Eclipse; The Dance of the Red Swan; Transparencies & Projections On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 8:45 AM, wrote: http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/2011/feb/21/david-harsent-life-writing-poetry David Harsent: A life in writing 'I was rather taken with the fact that being a poet could also involve having a mulatto mistress and catching the clap' A few months ago David Harsent found himself talking to a fellow poet at a book launch. "And this guy kept going on about how dark my work is. Of course I'd heard that before, but I was actually in rather a good mood as I'd just delivered my new book and so I sort of nodded and shrugged and tried to keep it light. But he wouldn't let it drop. 'It really is dark,' he said, sort of leaning into me. 'Really, really dark'." Since his 1967 debut, A Violent Country, Harsent's work has often been characterised as disturbing and emotionally extreme. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Feb 21 10:38:02 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 10:38:02 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Profile: David Harsent Message-ID: <6350185.1298302682964.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 21 10:47:34 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 10:47:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Profile: David Harsent In-Reply-To: References: <8CD9FED1BBF4FF4-15D0-53119@webmail-m024.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D628916.70704@nut-n-but.net> On 2/21/2011 9:54 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Mulatto! Now there's a word we don't > hear every day. > > "What does a poet need an unlisted > number for?" > --George Costanza > > Hal Watch out, Hal. It may be one of those no-no words. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From editor at pavementsaw.org Mon Feb 21 11:03:51 2011 From: editor at pavementsaw.org (David Baratier) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 08:03:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <623458.67522.qm@web45615.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> All of Mark's posts come up on digest unreadable, as "there was an attachment scrubbed" Unless someone replies and their e-mail reproduces it, the posts are lost so I am missing chunks of the conversation. What can be done to solve? Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press 321 Empire Street Montpelier OH 43543 http://pavementsaw.org Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 From junction at earthlink.net Mon Feb 21 11:15:08 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 11:15:08 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme Message-ID: <23083168.1298304908427.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Wow. Does anyone else come up with this? It's obviously something I need to know. I don't know what "there was an attachment scrubbed." There were no attachments. I'm temporarily (I hope) using webmail, until I can get Eudora up and running again. Best, Mark -----Original Message----- >From: David Baratier >Sent: Feb 21, 2011 11:03 AM >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] mallarme > >All of Mark's posts come up on digest unreadable, >as "there was an attachment scrubbed" >Unless someone replies and their e-mail reproduces it, the posts are lost >so I am missing chunks of the conversation. >What can be done to solve? > > >Be well > >David Baratier, Editor > >Pavement Saw Press >321 Empire Street >Montpelier OH 43543 >http://pavementsaw.org > >Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at >http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From editor at pavementsaw.org Mon Feb 21 11:18:16 2011 From: editor at pavementsaw.org (David Baratier) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 08:18:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] New-Poetry Digest, Vol 7, Issue 66 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <204371.67959.qm@web45602.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Since I cannot fully respond for example, I am unclear on points made about Venutti Larry, I assume? Routledge book? Yea, I know there is no definitive edition with Weinfield I appreciate a fairly clear sense of the "rules" and the superwide book format for the end poems. To spatially give credence to the original is always missing (the only version I can think of with wide circulation is one of the Poems from the Millennium reproducing a smaller version). There were small print run, personally made 8 1/2 by 11 (and larger) versions over the years of Un coup de des, cannot remember who has sent one. need to unbury from ice, all for now-- Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press 321 Empire Street Montpelier OH 43543 http://pavementsaw.org Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 21 11:37:46 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 11:37:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme In-Reply-To: <23083168.1298304908427.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <23083168.1298304908427.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4D6294DA.70802@nut-n-but.net> On 2/21/2011 11:15 AM, junction at earthlink.net wrote: > Wow. Does anyone else come up with this? Not I. (yet.) --Bob From junction at earthlink.net Mon Feb 21 11:37:29 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 11:37:29 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme Message-ID: <13669563.1298306249965.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Damn it, Bob--I especially wanted you to get the garbled version! -----Original Message----- >From: Bob Grumman >Sent: Feb 21, 2011 11:37 AM >To: NewPoetry List >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] mallarme > >On 2/21/2011 11:15 AM, junction at earthlink.net wrote: >> Wow. Does anyone else come up with this? > >Not I. (yet.) > >--Bob >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Feb 21 11:57:58 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 17:57:58 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query In-Reply-To: <190b03.3f0eeaaf.3a91e56b@cs.com> References: <190b03.3f0eeaaf.3a91e56b@cs.com> Message-ID: I put this poem on my blog without knowing Sam had translated him, with credits, can I still leave it there? Thank you. On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 4:32 AM, wrote: > *St?phane Mallarm?: Windows* > > Sick of the ward, sick of the fetid smell > Rising against the curtains' tiresome white > Toward the tired Christ nailed to the bare wall, > The sick man stretches, slyly stands upright, > > And shuffles, more to see the common stones > Blaze with sun than to fire his own decay, > Presses a grizzled face gray as his bones > Against the window tinged with dying day, > > And greedy for the azure licks his tongue > Across dry lips as if he might regain > That downy cheek he brushed when he was young, > And, with a long kiss, soils the golden pane. > > Drunk, he forgets the holy oils; he smiles, > Bidding the broths, the clocks, the bed good-bye; > Forgets to cough. Dusk bleeds across the tiles, > And in a sunset gorged with light his eye > > Discerns the gilded galleys, fine as swans, > Heavy with spices on a saffron sea, > Etching their burnished flash of lines upon > The lovely nonchalance of memory. > > Just so, disgusted with complacent Man, > Whose appetites devour him, whose sole quest > Is to fetch home what scraps of filth he can > To please the hag with urchins at her breast, > > I rush, I cling to all those windows where > One turns his back on life; transformed by light, > Washed by eternal dew and swathed in air, > Reflected in the dawn of the Infinite, > > I see myself an angel! die and seem > --Let this be Art! Let it be Mysticism!-- > To be reborn, wearing my crown of dreams > In the lush beauty of an antique heaven! > > But no. The Here and Now lord over me, > Seeking me out no matter where I fly, > And the rank vomit of stupidity > Stops up my nose before the azure sky. > > Is there a way for Me, who know such sorrow, > To break this glass soiled by humanity, > To fly on featherless wings into tomorrow-- > Risking the plunge into Eternity? > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Feb 21 12:21:59 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 12:21:59 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query Message-ID: <157ba.58024246.3a93f937@cs.com> In a message dated 2/21/2011 10:58:04 AM Central Standard Time, anny.ballardini at gmail.com writes: > > I put this poem on my blog without knowing Sam had translated him, with > credits, can I still leave it there? Thank you. > No problem. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From editor at pavementsaw.org Mon Feb 21 12:28:45 2011 From: editor at pavementsaw.org (David Baratier) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 09:28:45 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <597787.68500.qm@web45616.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Mark-- The last post worked, not the previous, see below-- Be well David Baratier, Editor Pavement Saw Press 321 Empire Street Montpelier OH 43543 http://pavementsaw.org Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 > Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 10:38:02 -0500 (GMT-05:00) > From: junction at earthlink.net > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Profile: David Harsent > Message-ID: > <6350185.1298302682964.JavaMail.root at elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 08:03:51 -0800 (PST) > From: David Baratier > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] mallarme > Message-ID: <623458.67522.qm at web45615.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > All of Mark's posts come up on digest unreadable, > as "there was an attachment scrubbed" > Unless someone replies and their e-mail reproduces it, the > posts are lost > so I am missing chunks of the conversation. > What can be done to solve? > > > Be well > > David Baratier, Editor > > Pavement Saw Press > 321 Empire Street > Montpelier OH 43543 > http://pavementsaw.org > > Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at > http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 11:15:08 -0500 (GMT-05:00) > From: junction at earthlink.net > To: NewPoetry List > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] mallarme > Message-ID: > <23083168.1298304908427.JavaMail.root at elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Wow. Does anyone else come up with this? It's obviously > something I need to know. I don't know what "there was an > attachment scrubbed." There were no attachments. > > I'm temporarily (I hope) using webmail, until I can get > Eudora up and running again. > > Best, > > Mark > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 21 12:50:06 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 12:50:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme In-Reply-To: <13669563.1298306249965.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <13669563.1298306249965.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4D62A5CE.8030807@nut-n-but.net> On 2/21/2011 11:37 AM, junction at earthlink.net wrote: > Damn it, Bob--I especially wanted you to get the garbled version! Hmmm, maybe you did, Mark, and I'm so used to that kind of stuff I automatically translated it without realizing it. . . . --Bob From junction at earthlink.net Mon Feb 21 12:49:34 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 12:49:34 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme Message-ID: <26930362.1298310574848.JavaMail.root@elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> The web works in mysterious ways. -----Original Message----- >From: David Baratier >Sent: Feb 21, 2011 12:28 PM >To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] mallarme > >Mark-- > >The last post worked, not the previous, see below-- > >Be well > >David Baratier, Editor > >Pavement Saw Press >321 Empire Street >Montpelier OH 43543 >http://pavementsaw.org > >Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at >http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 > >> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 10:38:02 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >> From: junction at earthlink.net >> To: NewPoetry List >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Profile: David Harsent >> Message-ID: >> <6350185.1298302682964.JavaMail.root at elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: > >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 08:03:51 -0800 (PST) >> From: David Baratier >> To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] mallarme >> Message-ID: <623458.67522.qm at web45615.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii >> >> All of Mark's posts come up on digest unreadable, >> as "there was an attachment scrubbed" >> Unless someone replies and their e-mail reproduces it, the >> posts are lost >> so I am missing chunks of the conversation. >> What can be done to solve? >> >> >> Be well >> >> David Baratier, Editor >> >> Pavement Saw Press >> 321 Empire Street >> Montpelier OH 43543 >> http://pavementsaw.org >> >> Subscribe to our e-mail listserv at >> http://pavementsaw.org/list/?p=subscribe&id=1 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 11:15:08 -0500 (GMT-05:00) >> From: junction at earthlink.net >> To: NewPoetry List >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] mallarme >> Message-ID: >> <23083168.1298304908427.JavaMail.root at elwamui-norfolk.atl.sa.earthlink.net> >> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 >> >> Wow. Does anyone else come up with this? It's obviously >> something I need to know. I don't know what "there was an >> attachment scrubbed." There were no attachments. >> >> I'm temporarily (I hope) using webmail, until I can get >> Eudora up and running again. >> >> Best, >> >> Mark >> > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Feb 21 15:03:23 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 21:03:23 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] newpo host? In-Reply-To: <937721.4273.qm@web35501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <18297635.1298165591386.JavaMail.root@elwamui-muscovy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <937721.4273.qm@web35501.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: & trumpets red velvet carpet brass blinding On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 2:55 AM, Alexander Dickow wrote: > Hello New Poets, > By the way, what's the association of New Po to the institution whose > server hosts the listserv, ie Virginia Tech? I'll explain the question soon > enough (drumroll).... > Amicalement, > Alex > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Feb 21 14:58:57 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 20:58:57 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query In-Reply-To: <157ba.58024246.3a93f937@cs.com> References: <157ba.58024246.3a93f937@cs.com> Message-ID: Thank you, it is really beautiful, p.s. by 'him' I meant Mallarme' before, here is the link: http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/2011/02/forwarded-by-r-s-sam-gwynn.html anny On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 6:21 PM, wrote: > In a message dated 2/21/2011 10:58:04 AM Central Standard Time, > anny.ballardini at gmail.com writes: > > > I put this poem on my blog without knowing Sam had translated him, with > credits, can I still leave it there? Thank you. > > > No problem. > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Feb 21 15:02:10 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 21:02:10 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Digital Poetry: A Revolution In Publishing?" In-Reply-To: <30967B954DFC41DFA6CBCC98863EE3D2@MaryAnnPC> References: <30967B954DFC41DFA6CBCC98863EE3D2@MaryAnnPC> Message-ID: I think - although I know it will stir some unwanted 'stirrings' - that the very best is Alan Sondheim, and much and many have copied from him. On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 6:55 PM, SULLIVAN wrote: > Digital Poetry has been around for quite a while, though, I'm sorry to > say, it was appreciated first in Europe, not the United States. See the > BBC's page published in 2001. http://www.bbc.co.uk/arts/poetry/ondisplay/ > Some very innovative digital poetry is being done by an Italian poet, > Caterina Davinio. > > The Tower Journal is committed to publishing digital poetry. You can see > samples in the first issue, in the current issue, and in other issues as > well. Some are interactive games, some are code poems, some video poems, > some animated poems, and so forth. http://www.towerjournal.com > > Mary Ann > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* James Cervantes > *To:* new-poetry > *Sent:* Sunday, February 20, 2011 10:57 AM > *Subject:* [New-Poetry] "Digital Poetry: A Revolution In Publishing?" > > Digital Poetry: A Revolution In Publishing?, Jason Nelson > > > "In the simplest terms Digital Poems are born from the combination of > technology and poetry, with writers using all multi-media elements as > critical texts. Sounds, images, movement, video, interface/interactivity and > words are combined to create new poetic forms and experiences." > > > > http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jason-nelson/digital-poetry_b_824768.html#s242066&title=game_game_game > > > -- Jim > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ > > The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > > http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html > > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning > > http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Feb 21 15:29:40 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 21:29:40 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] James Geary on metaphors on Studio 360 In-Reply-To: <8CD9F4625906DD5-18B4-1E148@webmail-m012.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CD9F4625906DD5-18B4-1E148@webmail-m012.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Interesting,* Je est un autre*, Rimbaud: http://www.philophil.com/dissertation/autrui/Je_est_un_autre.htm has anybody read the book by Geary? On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 7:50 PM, wrote: > I announced Geary's book I IS AN OTHER a couple weeks ago. Here he's > interveriewed > by Kurt Anderson... > > http://www.studio360.org/2011/feb/18/metaphors-are-his-sun-moon-and-stars/ > > Finnegan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Mon Feb 21 15:43:22 2011 From: tad at opus40.org (Tad Richards) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 15:43:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Crime and Punishment Message-ID: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/us/22bar.html?_r=1&emc=eta1 I figure Bob ought to get at least life. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 21 17:15:41 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 17:15:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Crime and Punishment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D62E40D.7000200@nut-n-but.net> On 2/21/2011 3:43 PM, Tad Richards wrote: > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/us/22bar.html?_r=1&emc=eta1 > > > > I figure Bob ought to get at least life. . Whoo boy, Tad, I don't have much money, but let me know how much you'd charge me to bring proceedings against me. Use any of my New-Poetry posts. You can probably find some negative reviews I've had published, too, although my of mine, even of Wilshberian poetry, are positive. Wonderful example of what I'd call hyper-offensiveness. But hard to laugh too much about because of the disruption to writers that frivolous suits like the one described here can cause, especially those who wouldn't have the money and/or time to go to France or some other country ruled by morally-vigilant imbeciles. Terrorists and supporters of terrorists are doing this kind of thing quite a bit to silence or slow their critics. I wonder what the woman whose book was reviewed advanced as evidence of having been libelled. I hope she will be required to cover the defendant's expenses if she loses the case, but doubt it. She should have to pay a lot more than just his expenses. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 21 17:17:37 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 17:17:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Crime and Punishment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D62E481.9000905@nut-n-but.net> On 2/21/2011 3:43 PM, Tad Richards wrote: > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/us/22bar.html?_r=1&emc=eta1 > > > > I figure Bob ought to get at least life. Heck, Tad, forget the evil things I've said about various writers--I should be shot for expressing a belief in absolute freedom of speech and the press. --Bob From jforjames at aol.com Mon Feb 21 17:25:20 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 17:25:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: "Every riven thing" Joan Houlihan on Christian Wiman In-Reply-To: <1104583957156.1101694517006.2467.6.3512507B@scheduler> References: <1104583957156.1101694517006.2467.6.3512507B@scheduler> Message-ID: <8CDA02D5973AAF6-1C90-733@webmail-m057.sysops.aol.com> -----Original Message----- From: Contemporary Poetry Review cpreview at aol.com Sent: Mon, Feb 21, 2011 12:51 pm Subject: "Every riven thing" Joan Houlihan on Christian Wiman You're receiving this email because of your relationship with CPR. Please confirm your continued interest in receiving email from us. You may unsubscribe if you no longer wish to receive our emails. "The Well-Wrought Void" Joan Houlihan on Christian Wiman Reviewed: every riven thing by Christian Wiman. Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2010. >From its hardcover heft and granite-engraved dust jacket (remove the jacket and a black, bible-like, hardback cover is revealed), to its ivory paper stock and black section divider pages (complete with roman numerals blazoned in white), every riven thing announces the solemnity it aims to deliver and does: verses crafted as if with a chisel on stone, the weight of each line falling into the congregation of a hushed readership, organ sounding in the background- There is no consolation in the thought of God, he said, slamming another nail in another house another havoc had half-taken. grace is not consciousness, nor is it beyond. ("Hammer is the Prayer") Wiman's preaching style doesn't truly take hold until the second section of the book, after the first section's poems set the scene for a sensitive boy-child's coming to reckoning with mortality. Though it takes awhile to get going, the lofty rhetoric rolls from Wiman's tongue with alarming frequency and to no other purpose but to ruminate and moralize... (Click here to read more.) _______________________________________________________ "Rust on the Ideal" Andrew Goodspeed on Teresa Leo Reviewed: The Halo Rule by Teresa Leo. Elixir Press, 2008 Teresa Leo possesses what a previous generation of critics would have termed an incoherent sensibility. This is not intended to denigrate. It implies instead that her poetical world is notable for the disillusionment and discontinuity of its subjects. In the world of The Halo Rule, love is the cause of frustration and pain, hope is the more difficult because it so often presages pointless failure, and the reality of the phenomenal world is largely an assemblage of deceptions seeking solidity and coherence. Her refusal to react with cynicism to this is the basis of her verse; having been disenchanted, she is curiously willing to be enchanted again. She does, however, observe such discontinuities with an ironical, if not an enthusiastic, engagement. If Leo has something that we may consider her common theme, it is that of an observer noting the rust on an ideal. She is less interested in exactitude than she is in describing the dispiriting connection between potentialityand actuality. The Halo Rule itself, as she states in her similarly titled poem, is the rule that protects the punt-returner in American football. No such rule exists in life. She explains: The Halo Rule intends to protect a return man by two yards. Even in football the defenseless man has an unimpeded chance for a fair catch if he waves his arm while the kick is in flight. Not so elsewhere. For us it's sideswipe, no berth, the deference of play to hurt, trough lust. For us there's no homosocial verve, no return man. Our most grievous infractions. What is intriguing here is not the discussion of a protective rule, but the curious sense of besiegement and proximity. The sense of siege is clear: "for us"-whoever we are-there is no rule that guards us from harm, and we are cut loose in a world of affrays and assailants... (Click here to read more.) _______________________________________________________ "Both Home and Away" Anthony Moore on Seamus Heaney Reviewed: District and Circle by Seamus Heaney. FSG, 2006. I fancy I know more about Seamus Heaney's back than anyone not related to him. He had given one of his lectures as Oxford Professor of Poetry and joined a crowd of us from his audience in the pub next door to "Schools" (the University's main lecture facility in the High Street). He was sweating heavily. Since his clothes had stuck to him, I helped him shed his fustian academic gown and his Donegal tweed jacket, so he could drink in shirtsleeves. I was thanked with a pint of Guinness. But I was the one truly grateful: the few minutes when his back caught and held my eye continue to sustain my enjoyment of his art. Beneath shoulders as wide as a barn door, his huge back is four square, as broad as it's long. I was looking at the powerful living embodiment of Heaney's farming gene. He was the land's before the land was his. In "Digging," the first poem in his first book (Death of a Naturalist, 1966), the ambitious young poet recognizes the claim the family farm-in South Derry, Northern Island-has on him, as he swears by the toil of those who've gone before, "By God, the old man could handle a spade. / Just like his old man." Although he will inhabit a different world and labor at a different trade from his father, the potato digger, and his grandfather, the turf cutter, he will be compelled by a strong sense of continuity (the "living roots").[private] He vows in plain, down to earth syllables rippling with robust energy to absorb into his writing a skilled authority, a dignity and a durability inspired by the generations of ancestors who have worked the small holding... (Click here to read more.) _______________________________________________________ The first conference to provide the faculty, methods and connections necessary to set poets with a book-length manuscript on a path toward publication. 2011 Editors, Authors & Publishers Jeffrey Levine, Tupelo Press Martha Rhodes, Four Way Books Jeffrey Shotts, Graywolf Press Peter Covino, Barrow Street Press Gabriel Fried, Persea Books Henry Israeli, Saturnalia Books Joan Houlihan, Lesley University Fred Marchant, Suffolk University Ellen Dor? Watson, Smith College Upcoming: March 25-28 & April 29-May 3 For details on location, requirements and cost, visit us online: www.colrainpoetry.com You may also: Call: (978) 897-0054 Email: conferences at colrainpoetry.com Write: Colrain Poetry Manuscript Conference c/o Concord Poetry Center 40 Stow Street, Concord, MA 01742 Forward email This email was sent to jforjames at aol.com by cpreview at aol.com | Update Profile/Email Address | Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribe? | Privacy Policy. Contemporary Poetry Review | P.O. Box 5222 | Arlington | VA | 22205 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Mon Feb 21 17:38:04 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 17:38:04 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] James Geary on metaphors on Studio 360 In-Reply-To: References: <8CD9F4625906DD5-18B4-1E148@webmail-m012.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CDA02F231985F8-1C90-A82@webmail-m057.sysops.aol.com> Anny, I have the book, but have just barely started it. (I don't need a Kindle, I need the KloneReader) Geary began as poet in S.F., and has written/compiled two books on aphorisms: Geary?s Guide to the World?s Great Aphorists The World in a Phrase: A Brief History of the Aphorism http://www.jamesgeary.com/ And he has a blog, All Aphorisms All The Time... http://www.jamesgeary.com/blog/ Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry List Sent: Mon, Feb 21, 2011 3:29 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] James Geary on metaphors on Studio 360 Interesting, Je est un autre, Rimbaud: http://www.philophil.com/dissertation/autrui/Je_est_un_autre.htm has anybody read the book by Geary? On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 7:50 PM, wrote: I announced Geary's book I IS AN OTHER a couple weeks ago. Here he's interveriewed by Kurt Anderson... http://www.studio360.org/2011/feb/18/metaphors-are-his-sun-moon-and-stars/ Finnegan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Mon Feb 21 17:56:12 2011 From: tad at opus40.org (Tad Richards) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 17:56:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Crime and Punishment In-Reply-To: <4D62E481.9000905@nut-n-but.net> References: <4D62E481.9000905@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Bob - of course I was kidding. But this is worse than a frivolous suit -- this is a criminal proceeding. On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > On 2/21/2011 3:43 PM, Tad Richards wrote: > >> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/us/22bar.html?_r=1&emc=eta1 < >> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/us/22bar.html?_r=1&emc=eta1> >> >> >> >> I figure Bob ought to get at least life. >> > > Heck, Tad, forget the evil things I've said about various writers--I should > be shot for expressing a belief in absolute freedom of speech and the press. > > > --Bob > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Mon Feb 21 18:18:29 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 18:18:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Crime and Punishment In-Reply-To: References: <4D62E481.9000905@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <8CDA034C8CFFE50-1C90-116B@webmail-m057.sysops.aol.com> A VizPolice matter, at the very least. -----Original Message----- From: Tad Richards To: NewPoetry List Sent: Mon, Feb 21, 2011 5:56 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Crime and Punishment Bob - of course I was kidding. But this is worse than a frivolous suit -- this is a criminal proceeding. On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: On 2/21/2011 3:43 PM, Tad Richards wrote: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/us/22bar.html?_r=1&emc=eta1 I figure Bob ought to get at least life. Heck, Tad, forget the evil things I've said about various writers--I should be shot for expressing a belief in absolute freedom of speech and the press. --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ccooley at overdomain.com Mon Feb 21 18:58:34 2011 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 15:58:34 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] CPR needed Message-ID: Given the cases below and the current state of triage, would you try to save the poet or the reviewer? ========== "The Well-Wrought Void" Joan Houlihan on Christian Wiman Reviewed: every riven thing by Christian Wiman. Farrar, Straus and Giroux, 2010. >From its hardcover heft and granite-engraved dust jacket (remove the jacket and a black, bible-like, hardback cover is revealed), to its ivory paper stock and black section divider pages (complete with roman numerals blazoned in white), every riven thing announces the solemnity it aims to deliver and does: verses crafted as if with a chisel on stone, the weight of each line falling into the congregation of a hushed readership, organ sounding in the background- There is no consolation in the thought of God, he said, slamming another nail in another house another havoc had half-taken. grace is not consciousness, nor is it beyond. ("Hammer is the Prayer") Wiman's preaching style doesn't truly take hold until the second section of the book, after the first section's poems set the scene for a sensitive boy-child's coming to reckoning with mortality. Though it takes awhile to get going, the lofty rhetoric rolls from Wiman's tongue with alarming frequency and to no other purpose but to ruminate and moralize... "Rust on the Ideal" Andrew Goodspeed on Teresa Leo Reviewed: The Halo Rule by Teresa Leo. Elixir Press, 2008 Teresa Leo possesses what a previous generation of critics would have termed an incoherent sensibility. This is not intended to denigrate. It implies instead that her poetical world is notable for the disillusionment and discontinuity of its subjects. In the world of The Halo Rule, love is the cause of frustration and pain, hope is the more difficult because it so often presages pointless failure, and the reality of the phenomenal world is largely an assemblage of deceptions seeking solidity and coherence. Her refusal to react with cynicism to this is the basis of her verse; having been disenchanted, she is curiously willing to be enchanted again. She does, however, observe such discontinuities with an ironical, if not an enthusiastic, engagement. If Leo has something that we may consider her common theme, it is that of an observer noting the rust on an ideal. She is less interested in exactitude than she is in describing the dispiriting connection between potentialityand actuality. The Halo Rule itself, as she states in her similarly titled poem, is the rule that protects the punt-returner in American football. No such rule exists in life. She explains: The Halo Rule intends to protect a return man by two yards. Even in football the defenseless man has an unimpeded chance for a fair catch if he waves his arm while the kick is in flight. Not so elsewhere. For us it's sideswipe, no berth, the deference of play to hurt, trough lust. For us there's no homosocial verve, no return man. Our most grievous infractions. What is intriguing here is not the discussion of a protective rule, but the curious sense of besiegement and proximity. The sense of siege is clear: "for us"-whoever we are-there is no rule that guards us from harm, and we are cut loose in a world of affrays and assailants... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 21 19:35:02 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 19:35:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Correction because these kinds of mistakes annoy me so much In-Reply-To: <4D62E40D.7000200@nut-n-but.net> References: <4D62E40D.7000200@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4D6304B6.4040405@nut-n-but.net> On 2/21/2011 5:15 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > On 2/21/2011 3:43 PM, Tad Richards wrote: >> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/us/22bar.html?_r=1&emc=eta1 >> >> >> >> I figure Bob ought to get at least life. > . > Whoo boy, Tad, I don't have much money, but let me know how much you'd > charge me to bring proceedings against me. Use any of my New-Poetry > posts. You can probably find some negative reviews I've had > published, too, although MOST of mine, even of Wilshberian poetry, are > positive. > > Wonderful example of what I'd call HYPER-OFFENDABILITY. But hard to > laugh too much about because of the disruption to writers that > frivolous suits like the one described here can cause, especially > those who wouldn't have the money and/or time to go to France or some > other country ruled by morally-vigilant imbeciles. Terrorists and > supporters of terrorists are doing this kind of thing quite a bit to > silence or slow their critics. > > I wonder what the woman whose book was reviewed advanced as evidence > of having been libelled. I hope she will be required to cover the > defendant's expenses if she loses the case, but doubt it. She should > have to pay a lot more than just his expenses. > > --Bob > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Feb 21 19:29:29 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 19:29:29 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query Message-ID: In a message dated 2/21/2011 5:35:12 PM Central Standard Time, junction at earthlink.net writes: > > > Re: Venuti. Wish I could. He spoke at ALTA this year, strongly criticizing > what he called belleletristic translation, i.e., trying to make a poem in > English as the translator understands poem, at the sacrifice of even minor > bits of meaning. He talks about this, too, in his books, tho his own > translations are, the few I've read, pretty belleletristic in his terms. > > One locus for a sort of anti-translation is Stanley Burnshaw's The Poem > Itself, a series of essays explicating poems from other languages word by > word. Exciting, but not in the way discovering a new poem is exciting. > > I'd be pretending if I claimed to be an expert on translation theory, tho > I hang out with some. Which is to say, what I think I know derives from my > own practice and party conversation. > > The question of form is going to hit me pretty hard when I start working > on a sonnet cycle by the Cuban poet Raul Hernandez Novas. My thought is that > I'll try to do the first in something like traditional form but thereafter > do what I usually do, which is to suggest the formed-ness of the original. > My native diction as a poet retains a degree of formality from a late > adolescence writing nothing but Miltonic sonnets, which helps. > > Best, > > Mark There would be thousands of ways to translate the Mallarme line: Would "The fresh, the free, the living break of day" be too far off? Something is retained of the alliteration, and "free" is added to add spice to the flat "living" (I don't think a good English poet would say the "'frisky'" or "'lively' break of day." But vivacity allows for both life and freedom, and "fresh" can be used more or less synonymously with "virgin" in English, as in, say, "virgin woods" or "virgin path." This is not, by the way, part of an translation of this sonnet, just a stab at saying that, in my opinion, the best translators are aware of analogies between words in different languages and try to substitute the best possible choices--some dictated by sound, some by meaning." French Alexandrines have been traditionally translated into English pentameters, given the relative differences in word lengths in the two languages. But translating Alexandrines into "loose" pentameters (with an anapest or two) would replicate the 12-syllable count. It's pretty well admitted that strict iambic hexameters don't work that well in English. I can think of only one poem, Sidney's famous sonnet "Loving in truth . . ." where they work at all. Otherwise, they just show up most often as closing lines in verse paragraphs of I5. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Feb 21 19:54:28 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 19:54:28 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] mallarme translation query Message-ID: <4931524.1298336068934.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 21 20:19:54 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 20:19:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Crime and Punishment In-Reply-To: References: <4D62E481.9000905@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4D630F3A.4090300@nut-n-but.net> On 2/21/2011 5:56 PM, Tad Richards wrote: > Bob - of course I was kidding. I know, Tad. I was kidding back. > But this is worse than a frivolous suit -- this is a criminal proceeding. I didn't realize that. That is really insane. --Bob > > On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 5:17 PM, Bob Grumman > wrote: > > On 2/21/2011 3:43 PM, Tad Richards wrote: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/us/22bar.html?_r=1&emc=eta1 > > > > > > I figure Bob ought to get at least life. > > > Heck, Tad, forget the evil things I've said about various > writers--I should be shot for expressing a belief in absolute > freedom of speech and the press. > > > --Bob > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 21 21:00:55 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2011 21:00:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: "Every riven thing" Joan Houlihan on ChristianWiman In-Reply-To: <8CDA02D5973AAF6-1C90-733@webmail-m057.sysops.aol.com> References: <1104583957156.1101694517006.2467.6.3512507B@scheduler> <8CDA02D5973AAF6-1C90-733@webmail-m057.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D6318D7.7090409@nut-n-but.net> Houlihan reminded me of William Logan. But I generally agree with his put-downs; I didn't with hers. Wiman, not a poet I hitherto thought much of, seems pretty good from the passages quoted. A question for James: does he seem strongly influenced by Stevens here? He does for me. Which is a plus, in my view. I'd be very curious to know what kinds of innovations Houlihad would have liked to have seen in his work. The few times I've read her, she seemed much opposed to anything non-Wilshberian. --Bob From jforjames at aol.com Tue Feb 22 10:54:49 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 10:54:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Peter Cole. "Making Sense in Translation: Thinking In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CDA0BFF812DBF8-1B6C-4FECF@webmail-m139.sysops.aol.com> FYI... -----Original Message----- From: Richard Deming To: wgcp-whc at mailman.yale.edu Sent: Mon, Feb 21, 2011 11:04 pm Subject: [Wgcp-whc] WGCP related events this week +++++ Please join the Cross-Lingual Poetics Working Group for a talk by poet, translator and scholar, Peter Cole. "Making Sense in Translation: Thinking about the Ethics of the Art" will be presented in LC 103 on Wednesday, February 23, 5.30-7p. All are welcome. Sincerely, Edgar Garcia, Graduate Convener Wai Chee Dimock and Langdon Hammer, Faculty Conveners &&&&&&&&&&& -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Tue Feb 22 13:42:05 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 10:42:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] "Digital Poetry: A Revolution In Publishing?" In-Reply-To: <30967B954DFC41DFA6CBCC98863EE3D2@MaryAnnPC> References: <30967B954DFC41DFA6CBCC98863EE3D2@MaryAnnPC> Message-ID: <79353.27078.qm@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> & the Chinese were doing something similiar pre digital. The haiku dudes were fine draftsmen & women . ________________________________ From: SULLIVAN To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sun, February 20, 2011 12:55:02 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "Digital Poetry: A Revolution In Publishing?" Digital Poetry has been around for quite a while, though, I'm sorry to say, it was appreciated first in Europe, not the United States. See the BBC's page published in 2001. http://www.bbc.co.uk/arts/poetry/ondisplay/ Some very innovative digital poetry is being done by an Italian poet, Caterina Davinio. The Tower Journal is committed to publishing digital poetry. You can see samples in the first issue, in the current issue, and in other issues as well. Some are interactive games, some are code poems, some video poems, some animated poems, and so forth. http://www.towerjournal.com Mary Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: James Cervantes >To: new-poetry >Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2011 10:57 AM >Subject: [New-Poetry] "Digital Poetry: A Revolution In Publishing?" > > >Digital Poetry: A Revolution In Publishing?, Jason Nelson > > >"In the simplest terms Digital Poems are born from the combination of >technology and poetry, with writers using all multi-media elements as >critical texts. Sounds, images, movement, video, interface/interactivity and >words are combined to create new poetic forms and experiences." > > >http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jason-nelson/digital-poetry_b_824768.html#s242066&title=game_game_game > > > >-- Jim > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ >The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org >http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html >http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning >http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf >http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ > ________________________________ _______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From hudson.jade at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 15:56:08 2011 From: hudson.jade at gmail.com (Jade Hudson) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 15:56:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] ToxicPoetry.com Seeks Experienced Webmaster Message-ID: My co-editor Nathan Kinsman and I (Jade Hudson) are in the market for an artistically-minded individual, but also an individual experienced in web-design, to act as our Webmaster. While we prefer for our site to remain a free service and free of advertisements, we are willing to offer our webmaster donation revenue that the success of our site and our publications will provide. If you are experienced with Dreamweaver or similar web-design software and you very much like the idea of aiding a ?poetic? cause, we?d love to hear from you. If you have questions, possible solutions, or are interested in the position please e-mail me (Jade) at Hudson.Jade at gmail.com Thank you, Jade Hudson?ToxicPoetry Co-Editor -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 17:57:17 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 15:57:17 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Digital Poetry: A Revolution In Publishing?" In-Reply-To: <79353.27078.qm@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <30967B954DFC41DFA6CBCC98863EE3D2@MaryAnnPC> <79353.27078.qm@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Yes, the mix or integration of graphics and text is not a new idea. Now it can simply be done digitally or presented digitally. - Jim On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 11:42 AM, stephen russell < poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com> wrote: > & the Chinese were doing something similiar pre digital. The haiku dudes > were fine draftsmen & women . > > ------------------------------ > *From:* SULLIVAN > *To:* NewPoetry List > *Sent:* Sun, February 20, 2011 12:55:02 PM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] "Digital Poetry: A Revolution In Publishing?" > > Digital Poetry has been around for quite a while, though, I'm sorry to say, > it was appreciated first in Europe, not the United States. See the BBC's > page published in 2001. http://www.bbc.co.uk/arts/poetry/ondisplay/ > Some very innovative digital poetry is being done by an Italian poet, > Caterina Davinio. > > The Tower Journal is committed to publishing digital poetry. You can see > samples in the first issue, in the current issue, and in other issues as > well. Some are interactive games, some are code poems, some video poems, > some animated poems, and so forth. http://www.towerjournal.com > > Mary Ann > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* James Cervantes > *To:* new-poetry > *Sent:* Sunday, February 20, 2011 10:57 AM > *Subject:* [New-Poetry] "Digital Poetry: A Revolution In Publishing?" > > Digital Poetry: A Revolution In Publishing?, Jason Nelson > > > "In the simplest terms Digital Poems are born from the combination of > technology and poetry, with writers using all multi-media elements as > critical texts. Sounds, images, movement, video, interface/interactivity and > words are combined to create new poetic forms and experiences." > > > > http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jason-nelson/digital-poetry_b_824768.html#s242066&title=game_game_game > > > -- Jim > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ > > The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > > http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html > > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning > > http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Tue Feb 22 18:19:55 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 18:19:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: poetry and math conference In-Reply-To: <8CDA0FDC091EFE5-1C14-5E14E@webmail-d015.sysops.aol.com> References: <1292d.36f7b032.3a953cd1@aol.com> <8CDA0FDC091EFE5-1C14-5E14E@webmail-d015.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CDA0FE264DE93F-1C14-5E1DB@webmail-d015.sysops.aol.com> Bob, perhaps someone here would be interested in your mathemaku. BRIDGES conference link and blog link below. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: jforjames at aol.com To: cashion at uvic.ca Sent: Tue, Feb 22, 2011 6:17 pm Subject: poetry and math conference Hi Jan, Thought you might be interested in knowing about this conference. Jim Finnegan 860-508-2810 -----Original Message----- From: SDColeman at aol.com Subject: Fwd: Blog posting Hi, everybody, Jo Anne Growney. mathematician and poet, posted a couple of my math/based poems that had been previously published in The AMATYC Review on her math/poetry site today. I am forwarding her note with the link to her blog and her mention of her plans for a poetry workshop proposal for a conference in Portugal. If any of you who are mathematicians and/or poet/artists/writers/sculptors are thinking about attending the Bridges conference in Portugal this summer, please let me know. I am trying to decide whether or not to attend and how I might work with her on a poetry presentation. http://bridgesmathart.org/ Best wishes to all, Sandy Attached Message From: JoAnne To: SDColeman at aol.com Subject: Blog posting Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 09:58:01 -0500 Dear Sandra-- I have just posted ?Universal Paradox? and ?Point of Distinction? at this link: http://poetrywithmathematics.blogspot.com/2011/02/poems-of-set-paradox-and-spatial.html Thank you for permitting me to use your poems. I wonder if you have decided to attend the BRIDGES conference. I have not yet registered but just a couple of days ago submitted a proposal for a poetry workshop. Perhaps you also are considering making a presentation -- perhaps about Kovalevskaya. It will be fun to meet you if, indeed, things work out for both of us to attend. With warm wishes, JoAnne * * * * * JoAnne Growney Silver Spring, MD; more information at http://joannegrowney.com . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 19:35:39 2011 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 16:35:39 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: poetry and math conference In-Reply-To: <8CDA0FE264DE93F-1C14-5E1DB@webmail-d015.sysops.aol.com> References: <1292d.36f7b032.3a953cd1@aol.com> <8CDA0FDC091EFE5-1C14-5E14E@webmail-d015.sysops.aol.com> <8CDA0FE264DE93F-1C14-5E1DB@webmail-d015.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: JoAnne is a very enthusiastic former math teacher and poet; I have had some "square stanzas" (under the influence of 80 Flowers) there I think. On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 3:19 PM, wrote: > Bob, perhaps someone here would be interested in your mathemaku. > BRIDGES conference link > and blog link below. > Finnegan > -----Original Message----- > From: jforjames at aol.com > To: cashion at uvic.ca > Sent: Tue, Feb 22, 2011 6:17 pm > Subject: poetry and math conference > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Feb 22 19:47:24 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 19:47:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: poetry and math conference In-Reply-To: <8CDA0FE264DE93F-1C14-5E1DB@webmail-d015.sysops.aol.com> References: <1292d.36f7b032.3a953cd1@aol.com><8CDA0FDC091EFE5-1C14-5E14E@webmail-d015.sysops.aol.com> <8CDA0FE264DE93F-1C14-5E1DB@webmail-d015.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D64591C.7070100@nut-n-but.net> On 2/22/2011 6:19 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: > Bob, perhaps someone here would be interested in your mathemaku. > BRIDGES conference link > and blog link below. > Finnegan > Thanks for the tip, James. Some there already are--JoAnne and I are buddies. I've even met her in person. Wish I could attend the thing in Portugal! --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Tue Feb 22 20:53:54 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 20:53:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Crime and Punishment In-Reply-To: <8CDA1134EDE98B1-11AC-6235@Webmail-m118.sysops.aol.com> References: <4D62E40D.7000200@nut-n-but.net> <8CDA1134EDE98B1-11AC-6235@Webmail-m118.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CDA113A8FB1187-11AC-627E@Webmail-m118.sysops.aol.com> Ta, I just read this. Ridiculous. One can't blame the complaint (as sad and crazy as it is), but what kind of governmental entity would even entertain the accusation? Voltaire would have been dragged to court every week by this standard. It does make one sympathetic with black flag. To the streets! To the streets! Finnegan On 2/21/2011 3:43 PM, Tad Richards wrote: > http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/22/us/22bar.html?_r=1&emc=eta1 > > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From carol.dorf at gmail.com Tue Feb 22 21:17:07 2011 From: carol.dorf at gmail.com (carol dorf) Date: Tue, 22 Feb 2011 18:17:07 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: poetry and math conference In-Reply-To: <4D64591C.7070100@nut-n-but.net> References: <1292d.36f7b032.3a953cd1@aol.com> <8CDA0FDC091EFE5-1C14-5E14E@webmail-d015.sysops.aol.com> <8CDA0FE264DE93F-1C14-5E1DB@webmail-d015.sysops.aol.com> <4D64591C.7070100@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: I wish I could be there as well -- I also have a couple of poems (one square stanzas, one for Ivar Ekland) up on her web site. JoAnne Growney also edited Strange Attractors: poems of love and mathematics; an interesting hybrid collection of poets' work reflecting on mathematics and poetry by mathematicians. Carol talkingwriting.com On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 4:47 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > On 2/22/2011 6:19 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: > > Bob, perhaps someone here would be interested in your mathemaku. > BRIDGES conference link > and blog link below. > Finnegan > > > Thanks for the tip, James. Some there already are--JoAnne and I are > buddies. I've even met her in person. Wish I could attend the thing in > Portugal! > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 23 09:26:57 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 09:26:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Digital Poetry: A Revolution In Publishing?" In-Reply-To: <79353.27078.qm@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <30967B954DFC41DFA6CBCC98863EE3D2@MaryAnnPC> <79353.27078.qm@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CDA17CDC4F1D94-C24-21809@web-mmc-d09.sysops.aol.com> Bob, you better step up your game. Looks like vizpo is being out-innovated. Personally I'm heading in steam-punk poetry direction, and I'm firing up 'ol hand-cranked letterpress, full-loaded with Gothic fonts. Finnegan From: SULLIVAN To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sun, February 20, 2011 12:55:02 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "Digital Poetry: A Revolution In Publishing?" Digital Poetry has been around for quite a while, though, I'm sorry to say, it was appreciated first in Europe, not the United States. See the BBC's page published in 2001. http://www.bbc.co.uk/arts/poetry/ondisplay/ Some very innovative digital poetry is being done by an Italian poet, Caterina Davinio. The Tower Journal is committed to publishing digital poetry. You can see samples in the first issue, in the current issue, and in other issues as well. Some are interactive games, some are code poems, some video poems, some animated poems, and so forth. http://www.towerjournal.com Mary Ann ----- Original Message ----- From: James Cervantes To: new-poetry Sent: Sunday, February 20, 2011 10:57 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] "Digital Poetry: A Revolution In Publishing?" Digital Poetry: A Revolution In Publishing?, Jason Nelson "In the simplest terms Digital Poems are born from the combination of technology and poetry, with writers using all multi-media elements as critical texts. Sounds, images, movement, video, interface/interactivity and words are combined to create new poetic forms and experiences." http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jason-nelson/digital-poetry_b_824768.html#s242066&title=game_game_game -- Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Feb 23 11:36:10 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 11:36:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Digital Poetry: A Revolution In Publishing?" In-Reply-To: <8CDA17CDC4F1D94-C24-21809@web-mmc-d09.sysops.aol.com> References: <30967B954DFC41DFA6CBCC98863EE3D2@MaryAnnPC><79353.2707 8.qm@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8CDA17CDC4F1D94-C24-21809@web-mmc-d09.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D65377A.9010302@nut-n-but.net> On 2/23/2011 9:26 AM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: > Bob, you better step up your game. Looks like vizpo is being > out-innovated. > Personally I'm heading in steam-punk poetry direction, and I'm firing > up 'ol hand-cranked letterpress, full-loaded with Gothic fonts. > Finnegan . Heck, Finnegan, I've been saying for at least five years that I'm no longer with it as a poetry pundit. I don't even know what digital poetry is supposed to be (and suspect I've been making it for years), nor am I interested enough right now to research it. I suspect that those behind the term are, as is usually the case, unreflective labelers without much knowledge of poetics and literary history. As far as I know, animation is the only important new thing poets are getting into. Of course, it's not new, but sophisticated serious poetic use of it is. Computers make it practical to use. I don't see that computers have contributed in any meaningful way to poetry except to make many kinds of poetry that used to be difficult to produce and disseminate much easier to--and give us new languages (computer coding). --Bob, stuck in Silligrummania in the kingdom of dead poetries that includes Wilshberia --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 11:33:36 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 17:33:36 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Los Angeles Times Book Prizes Message-ID: 31st Annual Presentation The 2011 Los Angeles Times Book Prizes ceremony honors the best books of 2010 The 2010 Los Angeles Times Book Prizes will be awarded April 29, 2011, in a ceremony at the Los Angeles Times building. The 2010 Book Prizes Innovator?s Award Winner, Robert Kirsch Award Winner, and the category finalists were announced publicly on February 22, 2011. http://events.latimes.com/bookprizes/ -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Feb 23 11:59:10 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 11:59:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Los Angeles Times Book Prizes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D653CDE.7070807@nut-n-but.net> On 2/23/2011 11:33 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > > 31st Annual Presentation > > > The 2011 Los Angeles Times Book Prizes ceremony honors the best > books of 2010 > > The 2010 Los Angeles Times Book Prizes will be awarded April 29, 2011, > in a ceremony at the Los Angeles Times building. > > The 2010 Book Prizes Innovator?s Award Winner, Robert Kirsch Award > Winner, and the category finalists were announced publicly on February > 22, 2011. > > http://events.latimes.com/bookprizes/ Dunno why, Anny, but for some reason I have no desire whatever to click the link you provided. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 12:34:27 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 18:34:27 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Los Angeles Times Book Prizes In-Reply-To: <4D653CDE.7070807@nut-n-but.net> References: <4D653CDE.7070807@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: :-) I already knew that, don't worry Bob, we love you the same, On Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 5:59 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > On 2/23/2011 11:33 AM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > 31st Annual Presentation The 2011 Los Angeles Times Book Prizes ceremony > honors the best books of 2010 > > The 2010 Los Angeles Times Book Prizes will be awarded April 29, 2011, in a > ceremony at the Los Angeles Times building. > > The 2010 Book Prizes Innovator?s Award Winner, Robert Kirsch Award Winner, > and the category finalists were announced publicly on February 22, 2011. > http://events.latimes.com/bookprizes/ > > > Dunno why, Anny, but for some reason I have no desire whatever to click the > link you provided. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jjeffreymail at yahoo.com Wed Feb 23 13:07:18 2011 From: jjeffreymail at yahoo.com (John Jeffrey) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 10:07:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] "Digital Poetry: A Revolution In Publishing?" In-Reply-To: <4D65377A.9010302@nut-n-but.net> References: <30967B954DFC41DFA6CBCC98863EE3D2@MaryAnnPC><79353.2707 8.qm@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <8CDA17CDC4F1D94-C24-21809@web-mmc-d09.sysops.aol.com> <4D65377A.9010302@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <50365.47448.qm@web120519.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> "unreflective labelers" I love that. ________________________________ From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry List Sent: Wed, February 23, 2011 11:36:10 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "Digital Poetry: A Revolution In Publishing?" On 2/23/2011 9:26 AM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: Bob, you better step up your game. Looks like vizpo is being out-innovated. > >Personally I'm heading in steam-punk poetry direction, and I'm firing >up 'ol hand-cranked letterpress, full-loaded with Gothic fonts. >Finnegan > . Heck, Finnegan, I've been saying for at least five years that I'm no longer with it as a poetry pundit. I don't even know what digital poetry is supposed to be (and suspect I've been making it for years), nor am I interested enough right now to research it. I suspect that those behind the term are, as is usually the case, unreflective labelers without much knowledge of poetics and literary history. As far as I know, animation is the only important new thing poets are getting into. Of course, it's not new, but sophisticated serious poetic use of it is. Computers make it practical to use. I don't see that computers have contributed in any meaningful way to poetry except to make many kinds of poetry that used to be difficult to produce and disseminate much easier to--and give us new languages (computer coding). --Bob, stuck in Silligrummania in the kingdom of dead poetries that includes Wilshberia --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Wed Feb 23 13:12:07 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 13:12:07 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Rothenberg, Owens, Barrio Spanish and lots of bargains! Message-ID: <10500410.1298484728011.JavaMail.root@elwamui-darkeyed.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Three new books from Junction Press, and a big sale. See the website, Junctionpress.com, for more details about the books. Jerome Rothenberg, Retrievals:Uncollected & New Poems, 1955-2010. Discount price $17 A central figure of both the "deep image" and ethnopoetics movements, and a pioneering experimentalist, Jerome Rothenberg is the author of over eighty collections of poems and ten volumes of translations and editor of nine ground-breaking anthologies. He here assembles, out of poems and plays unpublished or obscurely published, the first representation of the full trajectory of one of the most important careers in American poetry of the past fifty years. "Jerome Rothenberg has done as much as anyone over the past half century to shake up received ideas of what poems ought to be like, by demonstrating or suggesting an endless profusion of other pathways, other shapes, other stances, other contexts: as if to say that it is always possible to begin over, to invent new rules for the most ancient of games, not once but over and over. Now to the rest of his poetry--a body of work still underrated, in part because his extraordinary work as editor and translator may at times have overshadowed it--is added this bonus: half a century of work previously uncollected, spilling out in profusion from the interstices of all the previous poetry and revealing multiple layers of exploration and invention. Here are baroque sonnets, gnostic hymns, language games, parables, elegies, conversations, landscapes inner and outer, dream poems, poems noisy and nearly silent, poems mournful and ecstatic and uproarious, poems in dialogue with other poems from the Bablyonians and Toltecs to today or the day after, by way of Oppian, Lorca, Pound, Duncan, Mac Low, and culminating in a starkly pared-down suite of Ikons & Altarpieces. Retrievals is the book of a life, and the book of an era." - Geoffrey O'Brien, editor-in-chief, The Library of America Rochelle Owens, Solitary Workwoman. Discount price $17 "Rochelle Owens' writing...is sui generis. She is, in many ways, a proto-language poet, her marked ellipses, syntactic oddities, and dense and clashing verbal surfaces recalling the long poems of Bruce Andrews and Ron Silliman. But Owens is angrier, more energetic, and more assertive than most of her Language counterparts, male and female, and she presents herself as curiously non-introspective. Hers is a universe of stark gesture, lightning flash, and uncompromising judgement: it is imperative, in her poetic world, to face up to the horror, even as the point of view is flexible enough to avoid all dogmatism." - Marjorie Perloff ?Sharp & visual, Owens combines a landscape with a poetics, the domestic with the mythic, machines with the organic living world--from which arises a construct & a fused vision: poetry & life." - Jerome Rothenberg ?Owens goes cold turkey on the agony and delight of living in this century. She is the Shaman-genius exploring deeper realities in the psychic realm. She reaches down into the living, breathing mystical core and pulls up the forces of chaos spitting and kicking: she gives us back the hungry power of our own imaginations." - Maureen Owen A central figure in the international vanat-garde for fifty years, Rochelle Owens has published 16 previous volumes of poetry, including New and Selected Poems: 1961-1996 and Luca: Discourse on Life and Death (both Junction Press, 1997 and 2001). She has been the recipient of five Village Voice Obie awards and Honors from the New York Drama Critics' Circle for her plays. Her work has been translated into French, German, Italian, Spanish, Ukranian and Japanese. Polkinhorn and Velasco, Cal?: A Dictionary of Spanish Barrio and Border Slang. Discount price $17 "This dictionary is a much-needed update of the slang of California's border region. While Chicano cal? has been recognized as a youth argot since before World War II, when its speakers were known as pachucos, each region and generation has added new words and phrases, its speakers adapting the dialect to their current reality. By using it, Chicano youths and other insiders sometimes hide their true intent, playing with language and at the same time paying homage to the camaradas who have gone before them. Cal?: A Dictionary of Spanish Barrio & Border Slang allows the uninitiated into a world of living on the edge. It will be invaluable to readers who have learned Spanish in school but want to know how it's spoken on the street." - MaryEllen Garc?a, PhD, Department of Modern Languages and Literatures, The University of Texas at San Antonio "Cal? is a vibrant and often joyous explosion of linguistic tricksterism. Depending on the listener, it can either be delightful or intimidating--sometimes both at once. This book is fascinating and hilarious. So put on your best calcos, grab your weesa, and take the ranfla out for a cruise--and keep this volume in the glove box." - Luis Alberto Urrea, author of Into the Beautiful North, The Devil's Highway, and The Hummingbird's Daughter. "Polkinhorn and Velasco have busted the borders of linguistic analysis and Chicano talk assumptions. I hear the voices of my uncle Beto from El Paso in the 30's, the new multi-vocalities of the "?Orale!" generations of Latin America and the ever swashbuckling cross-cultural speakers and singers of the world. This is the unchained rap of the people! Tune into its poetic-love, community-renaissance and heart-rhythm dance. A twenty-first century ring-tone. ?De aquellas! Right on!" - Juan Felipe Herrera Order direct from me for a discount. Each retails for $21, but is discounted to $17 for list members. Order all three for $45. Add $3 for one book for shipping within the US. Still more ways to save money. Junction Press is digitalizing its older books and needs to unburden its warehouse of remaining copies of books printed offset. The digital copies will be significantly more expensive because of increased paper costs. So, Pay full price for Solitary Workwoman and I'll include Owens' New and Selected Poems 1961-1996 and Luca: Discourse on Life and Death gratis (each retail for $20). Buy any of the new books at full price and select one of the following gratis: Richard Elman, Cathedral-Tree-Train Luisa Futoransky, translated by Jason Weiss, The Duration of the Voyage Mark Weiss, Fieldnotes Ira Beryl Brukner, Questions, Short Poems, Water & Air Susie Mee, The Undertaker's Daughter Stephen Vincent, Walking Finally, Across the Line / Al otro lado: The Poetry of Baja California (bilingual, edited by Polkinhorn and Weiss), $10 (retail price $25). All of these offerings are only available backchannel to me. Happy book buying. From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 23 13:28:38 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 13:28:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Los Angeles Times Book Prizes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CDA19E9FC03C71-CB0-69C0A@webmail-d071.sysops.aol.com> Although the selection committee showed some cultural diversity in their picks, I note (in wake of the VIDA stats) only one venerable woman poet nominated out of 5 books. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 23 13:41:24 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 13:41:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Nat'l Book Foundation poetry blog In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8CDA1A06850F031-149C-10FBA@webmail-m073.sysops.aol.com> National Book Foundation recently launched a poetry blog... http://www.nationalbook.org/2011_nba_poetry_blog_events.html >From February through April of 2011, the Foundation will host a retrospective examining more than sixty years of American poetry. The retrospective will include a daily blog featuring essays by emerging poets on all past Winners of the National Book Award for Poetry, as well as a series of public programs in three U.S. cities. 1955 on the Nat'l Book Foundation poetry blog http://nbapoetryblog.squarespace.com/journal/2011/2/21/1955.html http://nbapoetryblog.squarespace.com/journal/2011/2/21/1955.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 23 13:43:53 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 13:43:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Digital Poetry: A Revolution In Publishing?" In-Reply-To: <50365.47448.qm@web120519.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> References: <30967B954DFC41DFA6CBCC98863EE3D2@MaryAnnPC><79353.27078.qm@web161904.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><8CDA17CDC4F1D94-C24-21809@web-mmc-d09.sysops.aol.com><4D65377A.9010302@nut-n-but.net> <50365.47448.qm@web120519.mail.ne1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CDA1A0BE858008-149C-11056@webmail-m073.sysops.aol.com> Yesterday we had news of "unintentional libelers." -----Original Message----- From: John Jeffrey To: NewPoetry List Sent: Wed, Feb 23, 2011 1:07 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "Digital Poetry: A Revolution In Publishing?" "unreflective labelers" I love that. From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry List Sent: Wed, February 23, 2011 11:36:10 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] "Digital Poetry: A Revolution In Publishing?" On 2/23/2011 9:26 AM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: Bob, you better step up your game. Looks like vizpo is being out-innovated. Personally I'm heading in steam-punk poetry direction, and I'm firing up 'ol hand-cranked letterpress, full-loaded with Gothic fonts. Finnegan . Heck, Finnegan, I've been saying for at least five years that I'm no longer with it as a poetry pundit. I don't even know what digital poetry is supposed to be (and suspect I've been making it for years), nor am I interested enough right now to research it. I suspect that those behind the term are, as is usually the case, unreflective labelers without much knowledge of poetics and literary history. As far as I know, animation is the only important new thing poets are getting into. Of course, it's not new, but sophisticated serious poetic use of it is. Computers make it practical to use. I don't see that computers have contributed in any meaningful way to poetry except to make many kinds of poetry that used to be difficult to produce and disseminate much easier to--and give us new languages (computer coding). --Bob, stuck in Silligrummania in the kingdom of dead poetries that includes Wilshberia --Bob _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From obodooha at gmail.com Wed Feb 23 14:03:11 2011 From: obodooha at gmail.com (Obododimma Oha) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 11:03:11 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Digital Poetry: A Revolution In Publishing?" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Jim, your post on digital poetry is coming at the time I need that kind of discourse most. Just two days ago in my undergrad Stylistics, I spoke to students on how the engaging practices in digital poetry -- as seen in the works of Alan Sondheim in Second Life and other e-environments, for instance -- require that we overhaul the tools of our analysis and methodologies in the teaching of poetry. Now I have more resources to use in my demonstration. Many thanks. -- Obododimma. On Sun, Feb 20, 2011 at 7:57 AM, James Cervantes wrote: > Digital Poetry: A Revolution In Publishing?, Jason Nelson > > > "In the simplest terms Digital Poems are born from the combination of > technology and poetry, with writers using all multi-media elements as > critical texts. Sounds, images, movement, video, interface/interactivity and > words are combined to create new poetic forms and experiences." > > > > http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jason-nelson/digital-poetry_b_824768.html#s242066&title=game_game_game > > > -- Jim > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ > > The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org > > http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html > > http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning > > http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- *Obododimma Oha* http://udude.wordpress.com/ (*Associate Professor of Cultural Semiotics & Stylistics*) Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & *Fellow*, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604; +234 808 264 8060. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Feb 23 14:35:51 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 14:35:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] "Digital Poetry: A Revolution In Publishing?" In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D656197.8080304@nut-n-but.net> On 2/23/2011 2:03 PM, Obododimma Oha wrote: > Jim, your post on digital poetry is coming at the time I need that > kind of discourse most. Just two days ago in my undergrad Stylistics, > I spoke to students on how the engaging practices in digital poetry -- > as seen in the works of Alan Sondheim in Second Life and other > e-environments, for instance -- require that we overhaul the tools of > our analysis and methodologies in the teaching of poetry. Now I have > more resources to use in my demonstration. I've been trying to find tools for the analysis of the work of poets like Sondheim, too. So I'd be interested in what resources you come to use in your demonstration, and how effective you find them, Oboboddimma. --Bob From jforjames at aol.com Wed Feb 23 19:40:31 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Feb 2011 19:40:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Tibor de Nagy Painters & Poets Message-ID: <8CDA1D2937B0EF7-79C-204E7@webmail-d064.sysops.aol.com> http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/21/arts/design/21tibor.html?_r=3 As odd as the package was, it worked. Almost instantly, in the still-small New York art world, Tibor de Nagy?s openings were a smart place to be, and its artists and writers ? Larry Rivers, Grace Hartigan, Frank O?Hara ? were figures to spot around town. The gallery had arrived. Six decades later, in a different location and with different personnel, it?s still around to tell the tale. And that?s what it?s doing in a tangy New York moment of an anniversary show called ?Tibor de Nagy Painters & Poets.? / -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Feb 24 07:02:53 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 13:02:53 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Trees of the Twentieth Century by Stephen Sturgeon: 10% discount available now. In-Reply-To: <4d66102a424d9_248656e12c26050@worker4.madmimi.managedmachine.com.tmail> References: <4d66102a424d9_248656e12c26050@worker4.madmimi.managedmachine.com.tmail> Message-ID: [image: Dsm] [image: Dark_sky_books] *Dark Sky Books* is proud to announce the publication of Stephen Sturgeon's first collection of poems, *Trees of the Twentieth Century*, and we're happy to say that early copies of the book are available to purchase at a reduced price. To receive a 10% discount, please include the coupon code "*Trees*" when ordering your copy(this offer is only valid for recipients of this email notice). Copies will begin shipping on March 1st. Composed between 2005 and 2010, the poems in *Trees of the Twentieth Century * range in style from classically formalized stanzas on memory and vitality to allusive and lyrical free verses, and chronicle ? among other subjects ? the stories of lost friends, prophesies from a wandering head that speaks from a tree branch, and the experiences of a man as he pursues a curtain rod through the woods of *Young Goodman Brown*. Stephen Sturgeon's poems have appeared in *Boston Review*, *Cannibal*, *Harp & Altar*, *Harvard Review*, *Jacket*, *Open Letters Monthly*, *Typo*, * Tuesday*; *an Art Project*, and other venues. Hear the poet recite his work, read a sample from the book, and place orders for *Trees of the Twentieth Century* at Dark Sky Books . Praise for Stephen Sturgeon's *Trees of the Twentieth Century*: ?Driven by synesthesia, Stephen Sturgeon?s magnificent poems affect the senses and embed themselves in the intellect, permanently.? ? Philip Nikolayev, author of *Letters from Aldenderry* and co-founder of *Fulcrum: an Annual of Poetry and Aesthetics* ?There are poems in this collection that I consider to be among the finest poems in the English language, and they have made me shiver until I wept.? ? Ben Mazer, author of *Poems* and *January 2008* ?Sturgeon illuminates the otherwise transparent impressions of memory and conscience, those opaque connections between our imaginations and each other, in music that sharpens the verse with thrilling uncertainty. His poems impress themselves upon the mind like an iron. He may be the first major poet of this generation.? ? Daniel Pritchard, editor of *The Critical Flame* Remember to include the coupon code "*Trees*" when ordering your copy to receive 10% off its cover price. Visit Dark Sky Booksto order. Thanks, Kevin M. Murphy Publisher Dark Sky Books [image: ***] ?2011 Dark Sky Magazine | Seattle, WA This email was sent to anny.ballardini at gmail.com. To ensure that you continue receiving our emails, please add us to your address book or safe list. View this email on the web here . You can also forward to a friend . Unsubscribe Powered by Mad Mimi? -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Feb 24 17:17:01 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 14:17:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Sad News -- Announcement about Akilah Oliver's passing Message-ID: <331748.39623.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> February 24, 2011 Then I command the stage again, as embodied activism this time a gone time from a before then if so therefore without pretense this phrase, this constituent, this color lily I?ve never seen before a calculated blue. (from The Putterer?s Notebook) We have just learned that our beloved friend, poet, teacher, performer, activist, mother, sister, Akilah Oliver passed away in her home in the Fort Greene section of Brooklyn, N.Y. Akilah Oliver was born in 1961 in Los Angeles. In the 1990s she founded and performed with the feminist performance collective Sacred Naked Nature Girls. For several years, Akilah lived in Boulder, Colorado, where she raised her son Oluchi McDonald (1982?2003) and taught at Naropa University?s Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics. Recently, in New York City, Akilah taught poetry and writing at The New School, Pratt Institute and The Poetry Project. She was a PhD candidate at The European Graduate School and a member of the Belladonna* Collaborative. Akilah Oliver?s books include A Toast In The House of Friends (Coffee House, 2009), the she said dialogues: flesh memory, which received the PEN Beyond Margins Award, and the chapbooks An Arriving Guard of Angels, Thusly Coming to Greet (Farfalla, McMillan & Parrish, 2004), The Putterer?s Notebook (Belladonna 2006), ?a(A)ugust? (Yo-Yo Labs, 2007) and A Collection of Objects (Tente, 2010). She read and performed her work as a solo artist throughout the United States and collaborated with a variety of artists and musicians, including Tyler Burba, Anne Waldman and Rasul Siddik. She was an artist-in-residence at Beyond Baroque Literary Arts Center in Los Angeles, a curator of the Poetry Project?s Monday Night Reading Series, and received grants from the California Arts Council, The Flintridge Foundation and the Rockefeller Foundation. Among her many projects, she was writing a book-length theory of lamentation. We feel this loss deeply, in all the communities where Akilah shared her energy, strength, life, wisdom and spirit. Information about services and memorial will be forthcoming. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Feb 24 21:13:28 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Feb 2011 21:13:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] listening to words Message-ID: <8CDA2A8BA1CD450-A34-B0F3@webmail-m001.sysops.aol.com> Site seems to be on hold, but some good things for fellow audiophiles... poetry http://listeningtowords.com/tag.php?id=76 people http://listeningtowords.com/people.php -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Feb 25 03:22:26 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 09:22:26 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Sam Rasnake - a poem Message-ID: http://mipoesias.com/ -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Feb 25 05:39:46 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 11:39:46 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] listening to words In-Reply-To: <8CDA2A8BA1CD450-A34-B0F3@webmail-m001.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CDA2A8BA1CD450-A34-B0F3@webmail-m001.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: That's enough for half a lifetime! On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 3:13 AM, wrote: > Site seems to be on hold, but some good things for fellow audiophiles... > poetry > http://listeningtowords.com/tag.php?id=76 > people > http://listeningtowords.com/people.php > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Feb 25 13:46:53 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 19:46:53 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Susan Howe Message-ID: http://beineckepoetry.wordpress.com/2011/02/24/howe-bollingen/ Susan Howe has been named the 2011 winner of Yale University?s Bollingen Prize in American Poetry. -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Feb 25 14:20:19 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 14:20:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? Message-ID: <8CDA3382CA64596-970-143F2@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com> http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/drader/detail?entry_id=82902 John Edward Martin, a professor of English at Louisiana Tech, not only sent in a list, he augmented his rankings with pithy, incantatory justifications: 1. John Donne--for sheer technical mastery, human emotion, and beauty; 2. Walt Whitman--for his moral courage, audacity, and integrity; 3. John Milton--for his profundity, power, and complex understanding of our relationship to the divine; 4. William Shakespeare--for his emotional range, his psychological depth, and entertainment value; all the elements of a great bard; 5. T. S. Eliot--for his learning, the timelessness of his language, and contributions to poetics as a discipline; 6. John Keats--for creating some of the most beautiful poems in the English language; 7. Wallace Stevens--for combining aesthetics, philosophy, and poetic expression better than any modern poet; 8. William Blake--for inspiring so many of "the devil's party" to challenge their most deeply-held assumptions; 9. Emily Dickinson--for revealing the power of the solitary mind to generate poetry from within itself that still speaks to everyone; 10. Rainer Maria Rilke--for combining human and divine longings so perfectly. Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/drader/detail?entry_id=83805#ixzz1F02to1OJ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Feb 25 14:29:27 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 14:29:27 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] UniVerse: A United Nations of Poetry Message-ID: <8CDA33973604998-970-14631@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com> http://www.universeofpoetry.org/poets.shtml Welcome to UniVerse: A United Nations of Poetry. Our anthology and public programs encourage universal dialogue, compassion and peace. Enjoy our archive of visionary poets and ?Teach This Poem,? our free, interactive teaching tool featuring engaging questions and writing exercises. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Feb 25 14:26:53 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 14:26:53 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? Message-ID: <33269944.1298662013673.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Fri Feb 25 14:34:10 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 19:34:10 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: <8CDA3382CA64596-970-143F2@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CDA3382CA64596-970-143F2@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: God--I hate to be nit-picky; I know as Woolf points out in "A Room of One's Own," women have such a history of being silenced, buried at the nameless grave at the crossroads, but ONLY ONE WOMAN? It is funny--last year my seventeen year old daughter wanted to apply to Saint John's the college with the classic "great reading" program and she (and I) were excited, until we got their book of great books. One woman poet--Emily again; two women novelists (Jane Austen and George Elliot) and no women philosphers. And the book was roughly thirty-nine pages long. I watched her go through it, go through it again, and then again, and then she just frowned, very slightly, and threw the book across the table. Sor Juana, H.D., Rossetti, Sappho--surely he could have reconfigured this list a little! To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 14:20:19 -0500 From: jforjames at aol.com Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/drader/detail?entry_id=82902 John Edward Martin, a professor of English at Louisiana Tech, not only sent in a list, he augmented his rankings with pithy, incantatory justifications: 1. John Donne--for sheer technical mastery, human emotion, and beauty; 2. Walt Whitman--for his moral courage, audacity, and integrity; 3. John Milton--for his profundity, power, and complex understanding of our relationship to the divine; 4. William Shakespeare--for his emotional range, his psychological depth, and entertainment value; all the elements of a great bard; 5. T. S. Eliot--for his learning, the timelessness of his language, and contributions to poetics as a discipline; 6. John Keats--for creating some of the most beautiful poems in the English language; 7. Wallace Stevens--for combining aesthetics, philosophy, and poetic expression better than any modern poet; 8. William Blake--for inspiring so many of "the devil's party" to challenge their most deeply-held assumptions; 9. Emily Dickinson--for revealing the power of the solitary mind to generate poetry from within itself that still speaks to everyone; 10. Rainer Maria Rilke--for combining human and divine longings so perfectly. Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/drader/detail?entry_id=83805#ixzz1F02to1OJ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Fri Feb 25 14:38:21 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 11:38:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Tonight: SUSAN HOWE -- Caesura Conversation: Dialogue and Process -- February 25, Friday, 5:30pm, James Gallery Message-ID: <337794.82646.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Caesura Conversation: Dialogue and Process February 25, Friday, 5:30pm, James Gallery What does it mean for a woman poet-scholar to write out of archival dark matter? Are particular formal strategies are demanded to narrate archival silences? Susan Howe's poetry collections include essays?personal and historical explorations written in prose?and her works of scholarship, broken into lyrical fragments, often feature the figurative language and quick leaps often found in contemporary verse. How should we read such texts, describe them, or categorize them? Join the Graduate Center's Stefania Heim, PhD program in English, as she explores these questions and more with Susan Howe, one of our most important contemporary poets. Howe is the author numerous collections of poetry and prose, including My Emily Dickinson, Pierce-Arrow, and the forthcoming That This, a collaboration with photographer James Welling. The Center for the Humanities :: The City University of New York :: 365 Fifth Avenue, New York, NY 10016-4309 http://www.centerforthehumanitiesgc.org/ ********* VIDA: Women in Literary Arts + Interviews Amy's Alias + http://amyking.org/ ******** -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Feb 25 14:42:25 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 14:42:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: <33269944.1298662013673.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <33269944.1298662013673.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <8CDA33B434A85FC-970-14960@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com> He did have RMR. & Prof. Martin's list is just one of many lists rec'd. This whole thing is playing off the recent '10 Greatest Composers' list that started by a NY Times music critic. -----Original Message----- From: junction at earthlink.net To: NewPoetry List Sent: Fri, Feb 25, 2011 2:26 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? My counting system is based on multiples of 17, not ten. An improvement, I think. By timeless, does he mean that Eliot puts him to sleep? I sympathize. One non-English writer? -----Original Message----- From: jforjames at aol.com Sent: Feb 25, 2011 2:20 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/drader/detail?entry_id=82902 John Edward Martin, a professor of English at Louisiana Tech, not only sent in a list, he augmented his rankings with pithy, incantatory justifications: 1. John Donne--for sheer technical mastery, human emotion, and beauty; 2. Walt Whitman--for his moral courage, audacity, and integrity; 3. John Milton--for his profundity, power, and complex understanding of our relationship to the divine; 4. William Shakespeare--for his emotional range, his psychological depth, and entertainment value; all the elements of a great bard; 5. T. S. Eliot--for his learning, the timelessness of his language, and contributions to poetics as a discipline; 6. John Keats--for creating some of the most beautiful poems in the English language; 7. Wallace Stevens--for combining aesthetics, philosophy, and poetic expression better than any modern poet; 8. William Blake--for inspiring so many of "the devil's party" to challenge their most deeply-held assumptions; 9. Emily Dickinson--for revealing the power of the solitary mind to generate poetry from within itself that still speaks to everyone; 10. Rainer Maria Rilke--for combining human and divine longings so perfectly. Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/drader/detail?entry_id=83805#ixzz1F02to1OJ _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Fri Feb 25 14:49:00 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 13:49:00 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Contempo Bessellers Message-ID: What!! Major Jackson and Mary Oliver tied? Guess that makes Merwin the swing vote. Contemporary Best Sellers for the week February 13, 2011 1 *Hoops* BY MAJOR JACKSON (W.W. Norton) 2 *Swan* BY MARY OLIVER (Beacon Press) 3 *The Shadow of Sirius (paperback)* BY W.S. MERWIN (Copper Canyon Press) 4 *Evidence (paperback)* BY MARY OLIVER (Beacon Press) 5 *Holding Company* BY MAJOR JACKSON (W.W. Norton) "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home *Mainly Black , **Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ;* *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; * ***Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; * ***G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Feb 25 14:49:11 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 14:49:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: References: <8CDA3382CA64596-970-143F2@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CDA33C301EF6BA-970-14A92@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com> As I was saying to Mark, that's just one of many lists that were submitted. But I'm sure many are less representative of women poets than they should be. Solon the Wise, had his troubles ruling Athens, but he would have listed Sappho: Solon of Athens (c.640-560 BCE), the great lawmaker and reformer, attended a banquet where he heard a young man sing a poem by Sappho. Upon hearing the song Solon asked the boy to teach it to him. When others at the table asked Solon why he was so keen on knowing that song, he replied: "I want to learn it and die. http://conjecturesatrandom.blogspot.com/search/label/Sappho [Anecdote told in various classical sources.] Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: sheila black To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Fri, Feb 25, 2011 2:34 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? God--I hate to be nit-picky; I know as Woolf points out in "A Room of One's Own," women have such a history of being silenced, buried at the nameless grave at the crossroads, but ONLY ONE WOMAN? It is funny--last year my seventeen year old daughter wanted to apply to Saint John's the college with the classic "great reading" program and she (and I) were excited, until we got their book of great books. One woman poet--Emily again; two women novelists (Jane Austen and George Elliot) and no women philosphers. And the book was roughly thirty-nine pages long. I watched her go through it, go through it again, and then again, and then she just frowned, very slightly, and threw the book across the table. Sor Juana, H.D., Rossetti, Sappho--surely he could have reconfigured this list a little! To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 14:20:19 -0500 From: jforjames at aol.com Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/drader/detail?entry_id=82902 John Edward Martin, a professor of English at Louisiana Tech, not only sent in a list, he augmented his rankings with pithy, incantatory justifications: 1. John Donne--for sheer technical mastery, human emotion, and beauty; 2. Walt Whitman--for his moral courage, audacity, and integrity; 3. John Milton--for his profundity, power, and complex understanding of our relationship to the divine; 4. William Shakespeare--for his emotional range, his psychological depth, and entertainment value; all the elements of a great bard; 5. T. S. Eliot--for his learning, the timelessness of his language, and contributions to poetics as a discipline; 6. John Keats--for creating some of the most beautiful poems in the English language; 7. Wallace Stevens--for combining aesthetics, philosophy, and poetic expression better than any modern poet; 8. William Blake--for inspiring so many of "the devil's party" to challenge their most deeply-held assumptions; 9. Emily Dickinson--for revealing the power of the solitary mind to generate poetry from within itself that still speaks to everyone; 10. Rainer Maria Rilke--for combining human and divine longings so perfectly. Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/drader/detail?entry_id=83805#ixzz1F02to1OJ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry = _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Fri Feb 25 14:45:23 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 13:45:23 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: <33269944.1298662013673.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <33269944.1298662013673.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: What! No Swedes? "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home *Mainly Black , **Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ;* *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; * ***Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; * ***G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 1:26 PM, wrote: > My counting system is based on multiples of 17, not ten. An improvement, I > think. > > By timeless, does he mean that Eliot puts him to sleep? I sympathize. > > One non-English writer? > > -----Original Message----- > From: jforjames at aol.com > Sent: Feb 25, 2011 2:20 PM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? > > http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/drader/detail?entry_id=82902 > > > John Edward Martin, a professor of English at Louisiana Tech, not only sent > in a list, he augmented his rankings with pithy, incantatory justifications: > 1. John Donne--for sheer technical mastery, human emotion, and beauty; 2. > Walt Whitman--for his moral courage, audacity, and integrity; 3. John > Milton--for his profundity, power, and complex understanding of our > relationship to the divine; 4. William Shakespeare--for his emotional range, > his psychological depth, and entertainment value; all the elements of a > great bard; 5. T. S. Eliot--for his learning, the timelessness of his > language, and contributions to poetics as a discipline; 6. John Keats--for > creating some of the most beautiful poems in the English language; 7. > Wallace Stevens--for combining aesthetics, philosophy, and poetic expression > better than any modern poet; 8. William Blake--for inspiring so many of "the > devil's party" to challenge their most deeply-held assumptions; 9. Emily > Dickinson--for revealing the power of the solitary mind to generate poetry > from within itself that still speaks to everyone; 10. Rainer Maria > Rilke--for combining human and divine longings so perfectly. > > Read more: > http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/drader/detail?entry_id=83805#ixzz1F02to1OJ > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Feb 25 15:10:02 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 15:10:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Top Ten Composers of All Time Message-ID: <8CDA33F1F0CA0A2-16A0-18F1E@webmail-m102.sysops.aol.com> Anthony Tommasini's list in NY TImes... http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/23/arts/music/23composers.html?_r=1&scp=4&sq=top%2010%20composers&st=cse - http://topics.npr.org/topic/Anthony_Tommasini -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Feb 25 15:26:02 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 14:26:02 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: <8CDA3382CA64596-970-143F2@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I don't dispute that Whitman had audacity, etc. But seems odd to omit his music and craft from what makes him a great poet. So I have the very strange feeling that I may agree with Bob Grumman on this particular matter. . . . On 2/25/11 1:20 PM, "jforjames at aol.com" wrote: > 2. Walt Whitman--for his moral courage, audacity, and integrity; -- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Feb 25 16:35:26 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 16:35:26 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? Message-ID: <1664708.1298669727269.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Feb 25 16:36:09 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 16:36:09 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? Message-ID: <22395547.1298669769595.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Fri Feb 25 16:38:57 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 16:38:57 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? Message-ID: <2781789.1298669938217.JavaMail.root@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Feb 25 18:03:40 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 18:03:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Centenary Tribute to Elizabeth Bishop Message-ID: <8CDA35760B43AB2-1AF4-182EB@webmail-m089.sysops.aol.com> In case you missed, as I did.... http://forum-network.org/lecture/elizabeth-bishop-100 Poets and scholars gather to pay tribute to the poet Elizabeth Bishop. She was born 100 years ago, yet Elizabeth Bishop?s poetry remains as fresh now as it was when she wrote it. ?Her poetry speaks to many issues that are urgent today: gender identity, our difficult relationship to foreign cultures and postcolonial realities, the way that science and reason can sometimes do violence to the world,? says Bonnie Costello, a Boston University College of Arts & Sciences professor of English and author of Elizabeth Bishop: Questions of Mastery. Bishop, who died in 1979, is the subject of a centennial celebration. The event brings together 17 poets, critics, and editors, who read aloud some of Bishop?s best loved poems, including ?In the Waiting Room,? ?Sandpiper,? ?Shampoo,? and ?First Death in Nova Scotia.? Speakers at this centenary tribute include: Frank Bidart, Olga Broumas, Peter Campion, Dan Chiasson, Henri Cole, Bonnie Costello, Maggie Dietz, David Ferry, Erica Funkhouser, Jonathan Galassi, Melissa Green, Saskia Hamilton, George Kalogeris, Gail Mazur, Alice Quinn, Christopher Ricks, Peter Sacks, Mary Jo Salter, Lloyd Schwartz, and Meg Tyler. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Feb 25 21:17:15 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 21:17:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: <8CDA3382CA64596-970-143F2@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CDA3382CA64596-970-143F2@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D6862AB.6070902@nut-n-but.net> On 2/25/2011 2:20 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: > http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/drader/detail?entry_id=82902 > John Edward Martin, a professor of English at Louisiana Tech, not only > sent in a list, he augmented his rankings with pithy, incantatory > justifications His justifications were the most comic part of of his list. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Fri Feb 25 21:24:35 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 21:24:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D686463.2050300@nut-n-but.net> On 2/25/2011 3:26 PM, David Graham wrote: > I don't dispute that Whitman had audacity, etc. But seems odd to omit > his music and craft from what makes him a great poet. > > So I have the very strange feeling that I may agree with Bob Grumman > on this particular matter. . . . Absolutely--music and craft were what made him a superior poet, although he wouldn't be on among my top ten. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 26 11:11:56 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 11:11:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: References: <8CDA3382CA64596-970-143F2@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D69264C.7090502@nut-n-but.net> I think the list of "The Ten Poets Whose Work Has Meant The Most To Me As A Poet" by a poet, especially a poet I admired would be interesting and valuable. Less valuable but not worthless would be a list of the ten poets most admired by a critic. But I'm not at all interest in lists by academics, which tend to me "My Perception of What the Literary Establishment Considers the Ten Most Important Poets." I would add that I wouldn't trust even my own list to be accurate. One tends to forget poets once extremely important but not too important once fully assimilated. There's also the difference between poets important to one as a person and poets important to one as a poet. Pound may be in my list of top ten poets important to me as a poet but not in the my top five whereas he is first or second in importance to me as a person because of my admiration for his cultural valor and selfless help of other writers, and ability to make a living in spite of being one of the most advanced poets of his time. I even admire what he did during WWII--say what he believed as though protected by the first amendment, although I'm about as anti-fascist as I think anyone can be, and think his hatred of usery was close to insane. His competition for most important poet for me as a person was Keats simply because of his dedication to poetry and to art, and because he seems to have been such a sane, good man, but also no doubt because he was the hero of one of the few genuine tragedies in the history of the world. --Bob From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Feb 26 11:29:22 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 08:29:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: <4D69264C.7090502@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CDA3382CA64596-970-143F2@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com> <4D69264C.7090502@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <375509.92188.qm@web161915.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> yeah. It took me awhile to stop listening to the idiot chatter of critics. I'll give my top ten some thought. I've been infuence by Rod Smith ... Merwin ... Seidel ... maybe those 3, top ten. Of course, there's the Buk, but the drunken bravado got tiresome, as did the lazy poems. ________________________________ From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sat, February 26, 2011 11:11:56 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? I think the list of "The Ten Poets Whose Work Has Meant The Most To Me As A Poet" by a poet, especially a poet I admired would be interesting and valuable. Less valuable but not worthless would be a list of the ten poets most admired by a critic. But I'm not at all interest in lists by academics, which tend to me "My Perception of What the Literary Establishment Considers the Ten Most Important Poets." I would add that I wouldn't trust even my own list to be accurate. One tends to forget poets once extremely important but not too important once fully assimilated. There's also the difference between poets important to one as a person and poets important to one as a poet. Pound may be in my list of top ten poets important to me as a poet but not in the my top five whereas he is first or second in importance to me as a person because of my admiration for his cultural valor and selfless help of other writers, and ability to make a living in spite of being one of the most advanced poets of his time. I even admire what he did during WWII--say what he believed as though protected by the first amendment, although I'm about as anti-fascist as I think anyone can be, and think his hatred of usery was close to insane. His competition for most important poet for me as a person was Keats simply because of his dedication to poetry and to art, and because he seems to have been such a sane, good man, but also no doubt because he was the hero of one of the few genuine tragedies in the history of the world. --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com Sat Feb 26 11:31:01 2011 From: poet_in_hell_files at yahoo.com (stephen russell) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 08:31:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: References: <8CDA3382CA64596-970-143F2@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <626138.38467.qm@web161909.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Why not include Emily Dickenson in a philosophy course? ________________________________ From: sheila black To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Fri, February 25, 2011 2:34:10 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? God--I hate to be nit-picky; I know as Woolf points out in "A Room of One's Own," women have such a history of being silenced, buried at the nameless grave at the crossroads, but ONLY ONE WOMAN? It is funny--last year my seventeen year old daughter wanted to apply to Saint John's the college with the classic "great reading" program and she (and I) were excited, until we got their book of great books. One woman poet--Emily again; two women novelists (Jane Austen and George Elliot) and no women philosphers. And the book was roughly thirty-nine pages long. I watched her go through it, go through it again, and then again, and then she just frowned, very slightly, and threw the book across the table. Sor Juana, H.D., Rossetti, Sappho--surely he could have reconfigured this list a little! ________________________________ To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Fri, 25 Feb 2011 14:20:19 -0500 From: jforjames at aol.com Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/drader/detail?entry_id=82902 John Edward Martin, a professor of English at Louisiana Tech, not only sent in a list, he augmented his rankings with pithy, incantatory justifications: 1. John Donne--for sheer technical mastery, human emotion, and beauty; 2. Walt Whitman--for his moral courage, audacity, and integrity; 3. John Milton--for his profundity, power, and complex understanding of our relationship to the divine; 4. William Shakespeare--for his emotional range, his psychological depth, and entertainment value; all the elements of a great bard; 5. T. S. Eliot--for his learning, the timelessness of his language, and contributions to poetics as a discipline; 6. John Keats--for creating some of the most beautiful poems in the English language; 7. Wallace Stevens--for combining aesthetics, philosophy, and poetic expression better than any modern poet; 8. William Blake--for inspiring so many of "the devil's party" to challenge their most deeply-held assumptions; 9. Emily Dickinson--for revealing the power of the solitary mind to generate poetry from within itself that still speaks to everyone; 10. Rainer Maria Rilke--for combining human and divine longings so perfectly. Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/drader/detail?entry_id=83805#ixzz1F02to1OJ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 26 12:22:49 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 12:22:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: <375509.92188.qm@web161915.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <8CDA3382CA64596-970-143F2@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com><4D69264C.7090502 @nut-n-but.net> <375509.92188.qm@web161915.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D6936E9.7000109@nut-n-but.net> On 2/26/2011 11:29 AM, stephen russell wrote: > yeah. It took me awhile to stop listening to the idiot chatter of > critics. I'll give my top ten some thought. > I've been infuence by Rod Smith ... Merwin ... Seidel ... I'd have huge trouble including contemporaries, not wanting to hurt feelings, and sincerely not sure who I stole the most from, so I'd limit my list to poets whose careers were over or almost over by 1960. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 26 12:31:51 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 12:31:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: <626138.38467.qm@web161909.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> References: <8CDA3382CA64596-970-143F2@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com> <626138.38467.qm@web161909.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D693907.5060307@nut-n-but.net> On 2/26/2011 11:31 AM, stephen russell wrote: > Why not include Emily Dickenson in a philosophy course? . In my career as an Internet defender of the proposition that Shakespeare of Stratford wrote the works of Shakespeare, I've come across many who consider Shakespeare (the /real/ one, in their demented minds) to have been among the world's greatest philosophers. Halfwits like Harold Bloom would agree with them. Bloom thinks Emily had a greater "cognitive intelligence" than any other poet except Shakespeare. Odd that it led her to believe in Heaven although she's never seen it because a case can be made for the existence of London, which she also has never seen. Still, it may be that very few poets have any greater "cognitive intelligence." I'm not a fan of Emily. I would leave Shakespeare off my list of great poets, too--not because I'm not a fan of his but because his poetry doesn't seem that good to me; his drama is much better, because of its poetry. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 26 12:56:13 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 12:56:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: <4D6936E9.7000109@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CDA3382CA64596-970-143F2@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com><4D69264C.7090502 @nut-n-but.net> <375509.92188.qm@web161915.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4D6936E9.7000109@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4D693EBD.90801@nut-n-but.net> I find it curious that the huge majority of visitors to New-Poetry refrain from getting into discussions like who the top ten poets are. David Graham and I seem almost the only ones who ever have the, what? gall? arrogance? foolishness? indifference to hurting the feelings of those who may disagree with us? to do so. I think it's fun and don't understand why others don't. Anyway, the ten pre-c.1960 poets who have meant most to me as a poet (all men, no doubt because I'm a man but also because it would seem previous literary establishments, with the aid of the ill effects of time, have kept the poetry of all but a very few women from reaching me, Sappho's--for instance--being much too fragmentary to rate), and almost all English-speaking because that's my only language) are (I think): E. E. Cummings, Theodore Roethke, Wallace Stevens (these three in a tie for the top, the next seven in no particular order), John Keats, W. B. Yeats, Ezra Pound, Basho (in English because translations of his work are effective enough for me to rate him as high as I do), Robert Frost, Wordsworth, and Dylan Thomas. Emily may be among my top ten for quotable very short passages. She /could /be brilliantly slant at times, and being slant is about as important to great poetry as anything. I would never advance my ten as objectively the ten greatest pre-c.1960 poets in English. I /would/ claim them to be among the top hundred pre-c.1960 poets in English. I can't stand Donne's "metaphysicality" (nor Shakespeare's), for instance, but consider that a temperamental bias of mine, not an objective one--and strange because I suspect that many who dislike/my /poetry would consider it too intellectual in the same way I consider Donne's to be. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Sat Feb 26 14:20:35 2011 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 11:20:35 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: <4D693EBD.90801@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CDA3382CA64596-970-143F2@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com> <375509.92188.qm@web161915.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4D6936E9.7000109@nut-n-but.net> <4D693EBD.90801@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: I think ten poets is too few. I think that's partially why we're not seeing any sort of diversity or inclusion of non-English works. I like the idea of "influencers" but I wonder how tricky the question of being influenced by a misunderstanding, or a very particular and personal understanding of a portion, of x's work, might be. I think this is why we see both neoformalists AND experimental poets claiming Wallace Stevens. So maybe a short list of influencers would be those who are claimed by very different poets. Sappho, Rimbaud, Sor Juana, Basho, Ashbery, Stevens, Blake, Dickinson, and Dante could be on that list. But someone like Bishop, who is very influential, but in a consistent way, would not. Then again, maybe it should be a list of poets whose works have a very big stylistic range. All best, Catherine Daly From halvard at gmail.com Sat Feb 26 14:22:20 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 13:22:20 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: References: <8CDA3382CA64596-970-143F2@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com> <375509.92188.qm@web161915.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4D6936E9.7000109@nut-n-but.net> <4D693EBD.90801@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: For a top-ten list, ten is just right. "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home *Mainly Black , **Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ;* *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; * ***Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; * ***G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 1:20 PM, Catherine Daly wrote: > I think ten poets is too few. I think that's partially why we're not > seeing any sort of diversity or inclusion of non-English works. > > I like the idea of "influencers" but I wonder how tricky the question > of being influenced by a misunderstanding, or a very particular and > personal understanding of a portion, of x's work, might be. I think > this is why we see both neoformalists AND experimental poets claiming > Wallace Stevens. So maybe a short list of influencers would be those > who are claimed by very different poets. Sappho, Rimbaud, Sor Juana, > Basho, Ashbery, Stevens, Blake, Dickinson, and Dante could be on that > list. But someone like Bishop, who is very influential, but in a > consistent way, would not. Then again, maybe it should be a list of > poets whose works have a very big stylistic range. > > All best, > Catherine Daly > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sat Feb 26 14:19:28 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 14:19:28 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? Message-ID: <5561039.1298747968734.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 26 15:29:46 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 15:29:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: <5561039.1298747968734.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <5561039.1298747968734.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4D6962BA.4040407@nut-n-but.net> You could leave the number of poets on the list up to the poet. Ten might be too many or too few, sure. I'd take any number from poets whose work I like. Or don't like. A specific number is good, though, because it forces one to think before listing. While I was making (actually, repeating) my list, which doesn't include any poet not on more than a few people's lists of major poets, so isn't what I'd call daring, unless it's daring to be undaring, it crossed my mind that there aren't any contemporary poets of the kind I listed other than Cummings that would excite me to hear had a new collection out. I don't know why that should be. The contemporaries whose work excites me are all in my small group of pluraesthetic poets. No one out there I know of is doing what Thomas did with the language, or what Roethke did with the big archetypal pay-off poem . . . I look forward to the wrap-up of the Robert Jordan Wheel of Time series and--do I dare admit it--to each volume in the Harry Potter series than I ever do to any mainstream book of poetry. I really believe that would not be the case if a Yeats or a Thomas or a Stevens were writing today. I'm afraid I wouldn't even bother to click a New-Poetry link to a new poem by any mainstreamer--although I think many are superior poets. --Bob From junction at earthlink.net Sat Feb 26 14:52:30 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 14:52:30 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] help, need info Message-ID: <10210922.1298749951338.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Anybody out there have M?nica de la Torre's email? B/c, please. From tad at opus40.org Sat Feb 26 16:00:31 2011 From: tad at opus40.org (Tad Richards) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 16:00:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: <4D6962BA.4040407@nut-n-but.net> References: <5561039.1298747968734.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <4D6962BA.4040407@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: It's not the worst list I've ever seen. On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 3:29 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > You could leave the number of poets on the list up to the poet. Ten might > be too many or too few, sure. I'd take any number from poets whose work I > like. Or don't like. A specific number is good, though, because it forces > one to think before listing. > > While I was making (actually, repeating) my list, which doesn't include any > poet not on more than a few people's lists of major poets, so isn't what I'd > call daring, unless it's daring to be undaring, it crossed my mind that > there aren't any contemporary poets of the kind I listed other than Cummings > that would excite me to hear had a new collection out. I don't know why > that should be. The contemporaries whose work excites me are all in my > small group of pluraesthetic poets. No one out there I know of is doing what > Thomas did with the language, or what Roethke did with the big archetypal > pay-off poem . . . I look forward to the wrap-up of the Robert Jordan Wheel > of Time series and--do I dare admit it--to each volume in the Harry Potter > series than I ever do to any mainstream book of poetry. I really believe > that would not be the case if a Yeats or a Thomas or a Stevens were writing > today. I'm afraid I wouldn't even bother to click a New-Poetry link to a > new poem by any mainstreamer--although I think many are superior poets. > > --Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From richard.wilsnack at med.und.edu Sat Feb 26 16:00:06 2011 From: richard.wilsnack at med.und.edu (Wilsnack, Richard) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 13:00:06 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: <5561039.1298747968734.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <5561039.1298747968734.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <424A7A6D198D2747A9841D16E563736E0292632D36@VA3DIAXVS211.RED001.local> Aren't you being a bit tendentious? Richard W. Wilsnack richard.wilsnack at med.und.edu ________________________________ From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of junction at earthlink.net Sent: Saturday, February 26, 2011 1:19 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? Ah, but one needn't submit to the hegemonic imposition of a mathematics based on tens. Its insidious influence is everywhere, creeping into words like tendency, tension, intensity, tenderloin, until it takes over the language. -----Original Message----- From: Halvard Johnson Sent: Feb 26, 2011 2:22 PM To: NewPoetry List Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? For a top-ten list, ten is just right. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sat Feb 26 15:31:41 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 15:31:41 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? Message-ID: <4075989.1298752301340.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ccooley at overdomain.com Sat Feb 26 18:02:56 2011 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 15:02:56 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? Message-ID: Okay, I'll play. Many poets are left off only because I'm too ignorant of their work to say. Even if I had read every poet who ever lived, I would never say any were the "greatest", because that judgment expresses pejorative stupidity, I think (my definition of stupid is denying to yourself what you suspect might be true to better serve your own interests), as if there were some absolute standard. Obviously these poets are just the ones who please me most, although they are not listed in order of how much they please me, but how important I consider their contribution to be. So, I'd rather read Eliot than Blake, but Blake reinvented religion. That seems more important to me than Eliot's exquisite whining. Lorca and Baudelaire invent the ethos of their time & place, which seems more important to me than Verlaine's beautiful phoniness. Shakespeare is first because I could literally stop reading everyone else in the world and be entirely satisfied with him. Homer, first poet in our world, who understood poetry through his (their) ears. Sappho, the greatest musician among poets (though her music, even more than her poetry, takes some imagining :). Goethe, because like Shakespeare, he evokes awe in me at the grandeur of his vision. I could also spend my life with Ovid. I have not erased sexism of the ages, but at least have abandoned strict Anglophilia. 1. Shakespeare 2. Homer 3. Sappho 4. Goethe 5. Blake 6. Ovid 7. Lorca 8. Keats 9. Dante 10. Dickinson Honorable mention: Yeats, Akhmatova, Mallarm?, Catullus, Baudelaire, Eliot, Plath, Villon. Purposely left off: Virgil (a chauvinist before Chauvin). Donne (because his work seems to me too obscure). Milton (his music to my ears lags well behind his learning). Whitman (takes the specific and makes it general -- the opposite business to the one I think a poet should be in). Stevens (who appears to me to be hallucinating in an anaerobic closet). My favorite post-1960 poet so far: Ted Hughes I find it curious that the huge majority of visitors to New-Poetry > refrain from getting into discussions like who the top ten poets are. > David Graham and I seem almost the only ones who ever have the, what? > gall? arrogance? foolishness? indifference to hurting the feelings of > those who may disagree with us? to do so. I think it's fun and don't > understand why others don't. > > Anyway, the ten pre-c.1960 poets who have meant most to me as a poet > (all men, no doubt because I'm a man but also because it would seem > previous literary establishments, with the aid of the ill effects of > time, have kept the poetry of all but a very few women from reaching me, > Sappho's--for instance--being much too fragmentary to rate), and almost > all English-speaking because that's my only language) are (I think): E. > E. Cummings, Theodore Roethke, Wallace Stevens (these three in a tie for > the top, the next seven in no particular order), John Keats, W. B. > Yeats, Ezra Pound, Basho (in English because translations of his work > are effective enough for me to rate him as high as I do), Robert Frost, > Wordsworth, and Dylan Thomas. > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Sat Feb 26 18:18:02 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 16:18:02 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: like - Jim On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 4:02 PM, Crisman Cooley wrote: > Okay, I'll play. Many poets are left off only because I'm too ignorant of > their work to say. Even if I had read every poet who ever lived, I would > never say any were the "greatest", because that judgment expresses > pejorative stupidity, I think (my definition of stupid is denying to > yourself what you suspect might be true to better serve your own interests), > as if there were some absolute standard. Obviously these poets are just the > ones who please me most, although they are not listed in order of how much > they please me, but how important I consider their contribution to be. So, > I'd rather read Eliot than Blake, but Blake reinvented religion. That seems > more important to me than Eliot's exquisite whining. Lorca and Baudelaire > invent the ethos of their time & place, which seems more important to me > than Verlaine's beautiful phoniness. Shakespeare is first because I could > literally stop reading everyone else in the world and be entirely satisfied > with him. Homer, first poet in our world, who understood poetry through his > (their) ears. Sappho, the greatest musician among poets (though her music, > even more than her poetry, takes some imagining :). Goethe, because like > Shakespeare, he evokes awe in me at the grandeur of his vision. I could also > spend my life with Ovid. > > I have not erased sexism of the ages, but at least have abandoned strict > Anglophilia. > > 1. Shakespeare > 2. Homer > 3. Sappho > 4. Goethe > 5. Blake > 6. Ovid > 7. Lorca > 8. Keats > 9. Dante > 10. Dickinson > > Honorable mention: Yeats, Akhmatova, Mallarm?, Catullus, Baudelaire, Eliot, > Plath, Villon. > > Purposely left off: > Virgil (a chauvinist before Chauvin). > Donne (because his work seems to me too obscure). > Milton (his music to my ears lags well behind his learning). > Whitman (takes the specific and makes it general -- the opposite business > to the one I think a poet should be in). > Stevens (who appears to me to be hallucinating in an anaerobic closet). > > My favorite post-1960 poet so far: > Ted Hughes > > I find it curious that the huge majority of visitors to New-Poetry >> refrain from getting into discussions like who the top ten poets are. >> David Graham and I seem almost the only ones who ever have the, what? >> gall? arrogance? foolishness? indifference to hurting the feelings of >> those who may disagree with us? to do so. I think it's fun and don't >> understand why others don't. >> >> Anyway, the ten pre-c.1960 poets who have meant most to me as a poet >> (all men, no doubt because I'm a man but also because it would seem >> previous literary establishments, with the aid of the ill effects of >> time, have kept the poetry of all but a very few women from reaching me, >> Sappho's--for instance--being much too fragmentary to rate), and almost >> all English-speaking because that's my only language) are (I think): E. >> E. Cummings, Theodore Roethke, Wallace Stevens (these three in a tie for >> the top, the next seven in no particular order), John Keats, W. B. >> Yeats, Ezra Pound, Basho (in English because translations of his work >> are effective enough for me to rate him as high as I do), Robert Frost, >> Wordsworth, and Dylan Thomas. >> >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Feb 26 18:21:33 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 18:21:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: <8CDA42265C05106-147C-26185@webmail-m062.sysops.aol.com> References: <5561039.1298747968734.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net><4D6962BA.4040407@nut-n-but.net> <8CDA42265C05106-147C-26185@webmail-m062.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CDA4230AA877ED-147C-26257@webmail-m062.sysops.aol.com> One note I forgot to append, I confined myself to poets who came to prominence in 20thC. Why? Because that was the century my birth, and I'm almost certain that I read their work with higher degree of fidelity than the works written in centuries before. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: jforjames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sat, Feb 26, 2011 6:16 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? Since we only get 10, and because the canon is a 'penile colony', I'll go with these: Emily Dickinson Ranier Maria Rilke Wallace Stevens C. P. Cavafy Anna Ahkamatova Robinson Jeffers William Carlos Williams Elizabeth Bishop Muriel Rukeyser Sylvia Plath Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Tad Richards To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sat, Feb 26, 2011 4:00 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? It's not the worst list I've ever seen. On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 3:29 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: You could leave the number of poets on the list up to the poet. Ten might be too many or too few, sure. I'd take any number from poets whose work I like. Or don't like. A specific number is good, though, because it forces one to think before listing. While I was making (actually, repeating) my list, which doesn't include any poet not on more than a few people's lists of major poets, so isn't what I'd call daring, unless it's daring to be undaring, it crossed my mind that there aren't any contemporary poets of the kind I listed other than Cummings that would excite me to hear had a new collection out. I don't know why that should be. The contemporaries whose work excites me are all in my small group of pluraesthetic poets. No one out there I know of is doing what Thomas did with the language, or what Roethke did with the big archetypal pay-off poem . . . I look forward to the wrap-up of the Robert Jordan Wheel of Time series and--do I dare admit it--to each volume in the Harry Potter series than I ever do to any mainstream book of poetry. I really believe that would not be the case if a Yeats or a Thomas or a Stevens were writing today. I'm afraid I wouldn't even bother to click a New-Poetry link to a new poem by any mainstreamer--although I think many are superior poets. --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry = -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Feb 26 18:16:57 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 18:16:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: References: <5561039.1298747968734.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net><4D6962BA.4040407@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <8CDA42265C05106-147C-26185@webmail-m062.sysops.aol.com> Since we only get 10, and because the canon is a 'penile colony', I'll go with these: Emily Dickinson Ranier Maria Rilke Wallace Stevens C. P. Cavafy Anna Ahkamatova Robinson Jeffers William Carlos Williams Elizabeth Bishop Muriel Rukeyser Sylvia Plath Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Tad Richards To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sat, Feb 26, 2011 4:00 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? It's not the worst list I've ever seen. On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 3:29 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: You could leave the number of poets on the list up to the poet. Ten might be too many or too few, sure. I'd take any number from poets whose work I like. Or don't like. A specific number is good, though, because it forces one to think before listing. While I was making (actually, repeating) my list, which doesn't include any poet not on more than a few people's lists of major poets, so isn't what I'd call daring, unless it's daring to be undaring, it crossed my mind that there aren't any contemporary poets of the kind I listed other than Cummings that would excite me to hear had a new collection out. I don't know why that should be. The contemporaries whose work excites me are all in my small group of pluraesthetic poets. No one out there I know of is doing what Thomas did with the language, or what Roethke did with the big archetypal pay-off poem . . . I look forward to the wrap-up of the Robert Jordan Wheel of Time series and--do I dare admit it--to each volume in the Harry Potter series than I ever do to any mainstream book of poetry. I really believe that would not be the case if a Yeats or a Thomas or a Stevens were writing today. I'm afraid I wouldn't even bother to click a New-Poetry link to a new poem by any mainstreamer--although I think many are superior poets. --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry = -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From sheilafblack at hotmail.com Sat Feb 26 18:25:38 2011 From: sheilafblack at hotmail.com (sheila black) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 23:25:38 +0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: <8CDA4230AA877ED-147C-26257@webmail-m062.sysops.aol.com> References: <5561039.1298747968734.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net><4D6962BA.4040407@nut-n-but.net>, , <8CDA42265C05106-147C-26185@webmail-m062.sysops.aol.com>, <8CDA4230AA877ED-147C-26257@webmail-m062.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: This is a list I can get behind! To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 18:21:33 -0500 From: jforjames at aol.com Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? One note I forgot to append, I confined myself to poets who came to prominence in 20thC. Why? Because that was the century my birth, and I'm almost certain that I read their work with higher degree of fidelity than the works written in centuries before. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: jforjames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sat, Feb 26, 2011 6:16 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? Since we only get 10, and because the canon is a 'penile colony', I'll go with these: Emily Dickinson Ranier Maria Rilke Wallace Stevens C. P. Cavafy Anna Ahkamatova Robinson Jeffers William Carlos Williams Elizabeth Bishop Muriel Rukeyser Sylvia Plath Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Tad Richards To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sat, Feb 26, 2011 4:00 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? It's not the worst list I've ever seen. On Sat, Feb 26, 2011 at 3:29 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: You could leave the number of poets on the list up to the poet. Ten might be too many or too few, sure. I'd take any number from poets whose work I like. Or don't like. A specific number is good, though, because it forces one to think before listing. While I was making (actually, repeating) my list, which doesn't include any poet not on more than a few people's lists of major poets, so isn't what I'd call daring, unless it's daring to be undaring, it crossed my mind that there aren't any contemporary poets of the kind I listed other than Cummings that would excite me to hear had a new collection out. I don't know why that should be. The contemporaries whose work excites me are all in my small group of pluraesthetic poets. No one out there I know of is doing what Thomas did with the language, or what Roethke did with the big archetypal pay-off poem . . . I look forward to the wrap-up of the Robert Jordan Wheel of Time series and--do I dare admit it--to each volume in the Harry Potter series than I ever do to any mainstream book of poetry. I really believe that would not be the case if a Yeats or a Thomas or a Stevens were writing today. I'm afraid I wouldn't even bother to click a New-Poetry link to a new poem by any mainstreamer--although I think many are superior poets. --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry = _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 26 19:01:38 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 19:01:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: References: <5561039.1298747968734.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net><4D6962BA.4040407@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4D699462.90709@nut-n-but.net> On 2/26/2011 4:00 PM, Tad Richards wrote: > It's not the worst list I've ever seen. . One good thing about it is that it's not intended to be the best of its kind, just one of its kind. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 26 19:04:37 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 19:04:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: References: <5561039.1298747968734.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net><4D6962BA.4040407@nut-n-but.net>, , <8CDA42265C05106-147C-26185@webmail-m062.sysops.aol.com>, <8CDA4230AA877ED-147C-26257@webmail-m062.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D699515.6010400@nut-n-but.net> On 2/26/2011 6:25 PM, sheila black wrote: > This is a list I can get behind! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 18:21:33 -0500 > From: jforjames at aol.com > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? > > One note I forgot to append, I confined myself to poets who came to > prominence in 20thC. > Why? Because that was the century my birth, and I'm almost certain > that I read their work > with higher degree of fidelity than the works written in centuries before. > Finnegan > -----Original Message----- > From: jforjames at aol.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Sat, Feb 26, 2011 6:16 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? > > Since we only get 10, and because the canon is a 'penile colony', > I'll go with these: > Emily Dickinson > Ranier Maria Rilke > Wallace Stevens > C. P. Cavafy > Anna Ahkamatova > Robinson Jeffers > William Carlos Williams > Elizabeth Bishop > Muriel Rukeyser > Sylvia Plath > Finnegan . Sorry, James, you left Langston Hughes off the list, or is it Rita Dove who is missing. Sorry, Rita, for sure. Unless June Jordan. --Bad Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Feb 26 19:11:17 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 19:11:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: <4D699515.6010400@nut-n-but.net> References: <5561039.1298747968734.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net><4D6962BA.4040407@nut-n-but.net>, , <8CDA42265C05106-147C-26185@webmail-m062.sysops.aol.com>, <8CDA4230AA877ED-147C-26257@webmail-m062.sysops.aol.com> <4D699515.6010400@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <8CDA429F825F018-147C-26AC8@webmail-m062.sysops.aol.com> Wrong again...it was Robert Hayden who was on my bubble. -----Original Message----- From: Bob Grumman Sorry, James, you left Langston Hughes off the list, or is it Rita Dove who is missing. Sorry, Rita, for sure. Unless June Jordan. --Bad Bob _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Feb 26 20:51:20 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 20:51:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: <8CDA429F825F018-147C-26AC8@webmail-m062.sysops.aol.com> References: <5561039.1298747968734.JavaMail.root@elwamui-chisos.atl.sa.earthlink.net><4D6962BA.4040407@nut-n-but.net>, , <8CDA42265C05106-147C-26185@webmail-m062.sysops.aol.com>, <8CDA4230AA877ED-147C-26257@webmail-m062.sysops.aol.com><4D699515.6010400@nut-n-bu t.net> <8CDA429F825F018-147C-26AC8@webmail-m062.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D69AE18.9070803@nut-n-but.net> On 2/26/2011 7:11 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: > Wrong again...it was Robert Hayden who was on my bubble. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Bob Grumman > Sorry, James, you left Langston Hughes off the list, or is it Rita > Dove who is missing. Sorry, Rita, for sure. Unless June Jordan. > > --Bad Bob > __________ Not good enough. Sorry. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Feb 26 22:19:04 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 21:19:04 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: References: <8CDA3382CA64596-970-143F2@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com> <375509.92188.qm@web161915.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4D6936E9.7000109@nut-n-but.net> <4D693EBD.90801@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On Feb 26, 2011, at 1:20 PM, Catherine Daly wrote: > I like the idea of "influencers" but I wonder how tricky the question > of being influenced by a misunderstanding, or a very particular and > personal understanding of a portion, of x's work, might be. I think > this is why we see both neoformalists AND experimental poets claiming > Wallace Stevens. So maybe a short list of influencers would be those > who are claimed by very different poets. Sappho, Rimbaud, Sor Juana, > Basho, Ashbery, Stevens, Blake, Dickinson, and Dante could be on that > list. But someone like Bishop, who is very influential, but in a > consistent way, would not. ======================== Interesting addition to the thread. I've long been struck by how many truly different kinds of poet claim William Carlos Williams as influence. In part this is no doubt because WCW himself had so many different styles & periods, and remained a restless experimenter his whole career. He was large, and contained multitudes. And thus Robert Coles does not value the same Williams that Marjorie Perloff does. But that internal diversity is not in itself an index of greatness, I don't suppose. I think of poets such as Hayden Carruth or even Theodore Roethke, who each had large stylistic range but nothing like the persistent influence that WCW has had. And Frost, who along with WCW is in my top-two list for 20th Century Americans, had nothing like the deep & wide influence on later poets that Williams did. Nor did he develop much. If I take an aerial view of American poetry to date it seems to me that Whitman remains by far our greatest poet, if greatness means influentiality. Hard to pick up any anthology of current American poetry and not see Whitman's fingerprints everywhere, in matters stylistic, tonal, & thematic. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== From grahamd at ripon.edu Sat Feb 26 22:47:58 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 21:47:58 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: References: <8CDA3382CA64596-970-143F2@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com> <375509.92188.qm@web161915.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4D6936E9.7000109@nut-n-but.net> <4D693EBD.90801@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <988DAF62-AE3A-4F58-B540-7337B00F5B14@ripon.edu> A couple years back there were various lists of top-10, top-25, etc. poetry books circulating on Facebook. Under the assumption that nobody really knows what "top" means, but that I do often enjoy hearing what others have to offer, I made the following list at that time. I thought I'd paste it in here. Needless to say (?) these are not necessarily the poets I consider all-time greatest. For one thing, the focus is mainly contemporary, deliberately omitting most canon-fodder. It's mainly a list of specific single books that were important to me, especially when I was starting out. === I could not resist making up my own little list of Desert Island poetry books, once I saw some others' fascinating lists. Hard to know where to stop--20, 25, 30? So I just stopped arbitrarily. This is off the top of my head, and probably omits some of my very favorite books, of course. But the books listed are all ones that took the top of my head off, often in my starting-out days. Books that directly or indirectly put fuel on my fire. Books I tried and failed to imitate. Books I carried around in my knapsack for months, etc. 1. Walt Whitman, Leaves of Grass (especially 1855 edition) 2. Robert Frost, North of Boston 3. Emily Dickinson, Collected Poems 4. William Carlos Williams, Selected Poems (especially the Jarrell selection) 5. Charles Simic, Classic Ballroom Dances 6. Theodore Roethke, The Far Field 7. Wallace Stevens, Harmonium 8. Marianne Moore, Selected Poems (1935 especially) 9. Robert Francis, Selected Poems 10. Robert Bly, Sleepers Joining Hands 11. James Wright, The Branch Will Not Break 12. Russell Edson, The Intuitive Journey 13. Laura Jensen, Bad Boats 14. Gerald Stern, Lucky Life 15. Brendan Galvin, Winter Oysters 16. Pattiann Rogers, The Tattooed Lady in the Garden 17. Marianne Boruch, Moss Burning 18. Christopher Gilbert, Across the Mutual Landscape 19. Robert Hayden, American Journal 20. Seamus Heaney, Station Island 21. Derek Walcott, Sea Grapes 22. Charles Wright, Bloodlines 23. Robert Hass, Praise 24. Donald Justice, Selected Poems 25. William Stafford, Stories That Could Be True 26. William Matthews, Rising & Falling 27. Richard Hugo, The Lady in Kicking Horse Reservoir 28. William Trowbridge, O Paradise 29. Tomas Transtromer, Truth Barriers (trans. Bly) 30. Jean Follain, Transparence of the World (trans. Merwin) Needless to say, some of my most most favorite books are not on this list, particularly if they were published recently. And I've mostly omitted Shakespeare, Wordsworth, Keats, et al. because they'd probably be on everyone's list. . . . 2/22/2009 ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Feb 27 06:33:28 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 06:33:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman's Influence In-Reply-To: References: <8CDA3382CA64596-970-143F2@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com><375509.92188.qm@ web161915.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><4D6936E9.7000109@nut-n-but.net> <4D693EBD.90801@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4D6A3688.1080504@nut-n-but.net> The big problem with judging the influence of Whitman is that so much of it had to do with his dumping standard formalism. I consider him a formalist, a psalmist, using parallelism in place of meter and rhyme as his formal device of repetition. Few, like Ginsberg, have followed him in that. Anyway, the real influentials in establishing free verse in American poetry were Eliot and Pound, not Whitman, although he's given a lot of credit for it. And free verse has become extremely important in our poetry. His greatest legitimate influence has been in the creation of me-poems, which Wordsworth had beaten him to but not done as thoroughly. Which leads to the question of whether it's quantity of poets a predecessor has influenced or quality. For me, our greatest poets come straight out of English romanticism with little from Whitman (whose content is all from Emerson's essays). --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Feb 27 06:44:43 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 06:44:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Post on Whitman Again, Revised In-Reply-To: <988DAF62-AE3A-4F58-B540-7337B00F5B14@ripon.edu> References: <8CDA3382CA64596-970-143F2@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com><375509.92188.qm@ web161915.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><4D6936E9.7000109@nut-n-but.net> <4D693EBD.90801@nut-n-but.net> <988DAF62-AE3A-4F58-B540-7337B00F5B14@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4D6A392B.2050204@nut-n-but.net> The big problem with judging the influence of Whitman is that so much of it had to do with his dumping standard formalism. I consider him a formalist, a psalmist, using parallelism in place of meter and rhyme as his formal device of repetition. Few, like Ginsberg, have followed him in that. Anyway, the real influentials in establishing free verse in American poetry were Eliot and Pound, not Whitman, although he's given a lot of credit for it. Whitman gave permission in his way for free verse, but we'd have it even he'd never lived. His greatest legitimate influence has been in the creation of me-poems, which Wordsworth had beaten him to but not done as thoroughly. Which leads to the question of whether it's quantity of poets a predecessor has influenced or quality. For me, our greatest poets come straight out of English romanticism with little from Whitman (whose content is more from Emerson's essays than anything else other than his own day-to-days). From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 27 08:11:02 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 14:11:02 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think that of all the lists sent to this list (talk of Whitman and his repetitions...) I would side with Crisman and take out Lorca and insert Borges, accept Baudelaire, Villon, add Pound, Schiller (whom I have thought superior to the same Goethe, didn't he write with the bust of his friend close-by?), Trackl, Rimbaud in his feverish addiction, (and many more) - I am probably closer to those who have left us a long time ago because I did study literature when I was a teen and continued, later, but when I had time. That is why my teen Poets have had a lot to say to me. On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 12:02 AM, Crisman Cooley wrote: > Okay, I'll play. Many poets are left off only because I'm too ignorant of > their work to say. Even if I had read every poet who ever lived, I would > never say any were the "greatest", because that judgment expresses > pejorative stupidity, I think (my definition of stupid is denying to > yourself what you suspect might be true to better serve your own interests), > as if there were some absolute standard. Obviously these poets are just the > ones who please me most, although they are not listed in order of how much > they please me, but how important I consider their contribution to be. So, > I'd rather read Eliot than Blake, but Blake reinvented religion. That seems > more important to me than Eliot's exquisite whining. Lorca and Baudelaire > invent the ethos of their time & place, which seems more important to me > than Verlaine's beautiful phoniness. Shakespeare is first because I could > literally stop reading everyone else in the world and be entirely satisfied > with him. Homer, first poet in our world, who understood poetry through his > (their) ears. Sappho, the greatest musician among poets (though her music, > even more than her poetry, takes some imagining :). Goethe, because like > Shakespeare, he evokes awe in me at the grandeur of his vision. I could also > spend my life with Ovid. > > I have not erased sexism of the ages, but at least have abandoned strict > Anglophilia. > > 1. Shakespeare > 2. Homer > 3. Sappho > 4. Goethe > 5. Blake > 6. Ovid > 7. Lorca > 8. Keats > 9. Dante > 10. Dickinson > > Honorable mention: Yeats, Akhmatova, Mallarm?, Catullus, Baudelaire, Eliot, > Plath, Villon. > > Purposely left off: > Virgil (a chauvinist before Chauvin). > Donne (because his work seems to me too obscure). > Milton (his music to my ears lags well behind his learning). > Whitman (takes the specific and makes it general -- the opposite business > to the one I think a poet should be in). > Stevens (who appears to me to be hallucinating in an anaerobic closet). > > My favorite post-1960 poet so far: > Ted Hughes > > I find it curious that the huge majority of visitors to New-Poetry >> refrain from getting into discussions like who the top ten poets are. >> David Graham and I seem almost the only ones who ever have the, what? >> gall? arrogance? foolishness? indifference to hurting the feelings of >> those who may disagree with us? to do so. I think it's fun and don't >> understand why others don't. >> >> Anyway, the ten pre-c.1960 poets who have meant most to me as a poet >> (all men, no doubt because I'm a man but also because it would seem >> previous literary establishments, with the aid of the ill effects of >> time, have kept the poetry of all but a very few women from reaching me, >> Sappho's--for instance--being much too fragmentary to rate), and almost >> all English-speaking because that's my only language) are (I think): E. >> E. Cummings, Theodore Roethke, Wallace Stevens (these three in a tie for >> the top, the next seven in no particular order), John Keats, W. B. >> Yeats, Ezra Pound, Basho (in English because translations of his work >> are effective enough for me to rate him as high as I do), Robert Frost, >> Wordsworth, and Dylan Thomas. >> >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From blacksox at att.net Sun Feb 27 09:27:09 2011 From: blacksox at att.net (Russ Golata) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 06:27:09 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] My Post on Whitman Again, Revised In-Reply-To: <4D6A392B.2050204@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CDA3382CA64596-970-143F2@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com><375509.92188.qm@ web161915.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><4D6936E9.7000109@nut-n-but.net> <4D693EBD.90801@nut-n-but.net> <988DAF62-AE3A-4F58-B540-7337B00F5B14@ripon.edu> <4D6A392B.2050204@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <69362.17767.qm@web180515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I think you are missing out on the spirit of nationalism that influenced Whitman. I am sure he read the romantics, as did most of the people in America. This is what lead him to create a new American poetry. Besides Emerson, who was an influential stateside poet? Your palmist interpertation is a wonderful way to look at Whitman. Eliot and Pound took free verse to the next level, but it was Whitman that kicked open the door. ----- Original Message ---- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sun, February 27, 2011 6:44:43 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] My Post on Whitman Again, Revised The big problem with judging the influence of Whitman is that so much of it had to do with his dumping standard formalism.? I consider him a formalist, a psalmist, using parallelism in place of meter and rhyme as his formal device of repetition.? Few, like Ginsberg, have followed him in that.? Anyway, the real influentials in establishing free verse in American poetry were Eliot and Pound, not Whitman, although he's given a lot of credit for it.? Whitman gave permission in his way for free verse, but we'd have it even he'd never lived. His greatest legitimate influence has been in the creation of me-poems, which Wordsworth had beaten him to but not done as thoroughly.? Which leads to the question of whether it's quantity of poets a predecessor has influenced or quality.? For me, our greatest poets come straight out of English romanticism with little from Whitman (whose content is more from Emerson's essays than anything else other than his own day-to-days). _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From david.weinstock at gmail.com Sun Feb 27 09:43:31 2011 From: david.weinstock at gmail.com (David Weinstock) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 09:43:31 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Post on Whitman Again, Revised In-Reply-To: <69362.17767.qm@web180515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <8CDA3382CA64596-970-143F2@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com> <4D6936E9.7000109@nut-n-but.net> <4D693EBD.90801@nut-n-but.net> <988DAF62-AE3A-4F58-B540-7337B00F5B14@ripon.edu> <4D6A392B.2050204@nut-n-but.net> <69362.17767.qm@web180515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: A Pact I make a pact with you, Walt Whitman - I have detested you long enough. I come to you as a grown child Who has had a pig-headed father; I am old enough now to make friends. It was you that broke the new wood, Now is a time for carving. We have one sap and one root - Let there be commerce between us. --Ezra Pound From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Feb 27 12:08:29 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 12:08:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Post on Whitman Again, Revised In-Reply-To: <69362.17767.qm@web180515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <8CDA3382CA64596-970-143F2@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com><375509.92188.qm@ web161915.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><4D6936E9.7000109@nut-n-but.net><4D693EBD.90801@nut-n-but.net> <988DAF62-AE3A-4F58-B540-7337B00F5B14@ripon.edu><4D6A392B.2050204@nut-n-but.net> <69362.17767.qm@web180515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D6A850D.8010507@nut-n-but.net> On 2/27/2011 9:27 AM, Russ Golata wrote: > I think you are missing out on the spirit of nationalism that influenced > Whitman. I am sure he read the romantics, as did most of the people in America. > This is what lead him to create a new American poetry. Besides Emerson, who was > an influential stateside poet? Your palmist interpertation is a wonderful way to > look at Whitman. Eliot and Pound took free verse to the next level, but it was > Whitman that kicked open the door. That's the accepted version, and Whitman certainly helped, but we'd have free verse without him, thanks to the French. --Bob From junction at earthlink.net Sun Feb 27 12:14:46 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 12:14:46 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] My Post on Whitman Again, Revised Message-ID: <25986694.1298826887078.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> The long whitmanic line had a pretty wide influence, even in France--look at Peguy. In Latin America his influence has been decisive--I've been known to call him the most important latin american poet of the 19th century. It was Marti who introduced him to the region. Neruda is unimaginable without him as a forebear. Maybe Goldilocks would have been better off if she'd slept in his bed. Best, Mark -----Original Message----- >From: Bob Grumman >Sent: Feb 27, 2011 12:08 PM >To: NewPoetry List >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] My Post on Whitman Again, Revised > >On 2/27/2011 9:27 AM, Russ Golata wrote: >> I think you are missing out on the spirit of nationalism that influenced >> Whitman. I am sure he read the romantics, as did most of the people in America. >> This is what lead him to create a new American poetry. Besides Emerson, who was >> an influential stateside poet? Your palmist interpertation is a wonderful way to >> look at Whitman. Eliot and Pound took free verse to the next level, but it was >> Whitman that kicked open the door. >That's the accepted version, and Whitman certainly helped, but we'd have >free verse without him, thanks to the French. > >--Bob >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 27 12:19:40 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 18:19:40 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, and Hoelderlin. On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > I think that of all the lists sent to this list (talk of Whitman and his > repetitions...) I would side with Crisman and take out Lorca and insert > Borges, accept Baudelaire, Villon, add Pound, Schiller (whom I have thought > superior to the same Goethe, didn't he write with the bust of his friend > close-by?), Trackl, Rimbaud in his feverish addiction, (and many more) - I > am probably closer to those who have left us a long time ago > because I did study literature when I was a teen and continued, later, but > when I had time. That is why my teen Poets have had a lot to say to me. > > On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 12:02 AM, Crisman Cooley wrote: > >> Okay, I'll play. Many poets are left off only because I'm too ignorant of >> their work to say. Even if I had read every poet who ever lived, I would >> never say any were the "greatest", because that judgment expresses >> pejorative stupidity, I think (my definition of stupid is denying to >> yourself what you suspect might be true to better serve your own interests), >> as if there were some absolute standard. Obviously these poets are just the >> ones who please me most, although they are not listed in order of how much >> they please me, but how important I consider their contribution to be. So, >> I'd rather read Eliot than Blake, but Blake reinvented religion. That seems >> more important to me than Eliot's exquisite whining. Lorca and Baudelaire >> invent the ethos of their time & place, which seems more important to me >> than Verlaine's beautiful phoniness. Shakespeare is first because I could >> literally stop reading everyone else in the world and be entirely satisfied >> with him. Homer, first poet in our world, who understood poetry through his >> (their) ears. Sappho, the greatest musician among poets (though her music, >> even more than her poetry, takes some imagining :). Goethe, because like >> Shakespeare, he evokes awe in me at the grandeur of his vision. I could also >> spend my life with Ovid. >> >> I have not erased sexism of the ages, but at least have abandoned strict >> Anglophilia. >> >> 1. Shakespeare >> 2. Homer >> 3. Sappho >> 4. Goethe >> 5. Blake >> 6. Ovid >> 7. Lorca >> 8. Keats >> 9. Dante >> 10. Dickinson >> >> Honorable mention: Yeats, Akhmatova, Mallarm?, Catullus, Baudelaire, >> Eliot, Plath, Villon. >> >> Purposely left off: >> Virgil (a chauvinist before Chauvin). >> Donne (because his work seems to me too obscure). >> Milton (his music to my ears lags well behind his learning). >> Whitman (takes the specific and makes it general -- the opposite business >> to the one I think a poet should be in). >> Stevens (who appears to me to be hallucinating in an anaerobic closet). >> >> My favorite post-1960 poet so far: >> Ted Hughes >> >> I find it curious that the huge majority of visitors to New-Poetry >>> refrain from getting into discussions like who the top ten poets are. >>> David Graham and I seem almost the only ones who ever have the, what? >>> gall? arrogance? foolishness? indifference to hurting the feelings of >>> those who may disagree with us? to do so. I think it's fun and don't >>> understand why others don't. >>> >>> Anyway, the ten pre-c.1960 poets who have meant most to me as a poet >>> (all men, no doubt because I'm a man but also because it would seem >>> previous literary establishments, with the aid of the ill effects of >>> time, have kept the poetry of all but a very few women from reaching me, >>> Sappho's--for instance--being much too fragmentary to rate), and almost >>> all English-speaking because that's my only language) are (I think): E. >>> E. Cummings, Theodore Roethke, Wallace Stevens (these three in a tie for >>> the top, the next seven in no particular order), John Keats, W. B. >>> Yeats, Ezra Pound, Basho (in English because translations of his work >>> are effective enough for me to rate him as high as I do), Robert Frost, >>> Wordsworth, and Dylan Thomas. >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Feb 27 12:51:11 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 11:51:11 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman Again, Revised In-Reply-To: <4D6A392B.2050204@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CDA3382CA64596-970-143F2@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com><375509.92188.qm@ web161915.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><4D6936E9.7000109@nut-n-but.net> <4D693EBD.90801@nut-n-but.net> <988DAF62-AE3A-4F58-B540-7337B00F5B14@ripon.edu> <4D6A392B.2050204@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <6871F132-2985-4363-BF56-5BF83350DDC5@ripon.edu> On Feb 27, 2011, at 5:44 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > The big problem with judging the influence of Whitman is that so much of it had to do with his dumping standard formalism. I consider him a formalist, a psalmist, using parallelism in place of meter and rhyme as his formal device of repetition. Few, like Ginsberg, have followed him in that. -------------------------------------- In that final sentence, there's a statement so utterly at odds with my sense of things that I wonder if it's a typo. "Not a few," perhaps? ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== From robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com Sun Feb 27 12:56:56 2011 From: robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 12:56:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] My Post on Whitman Again, Revised In-Reply-To: <4D6A850D.8010507@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CDA3382CA64596-970-143F2@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com><375509.92188.qm@web161915.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><4D6936E9.7000109@nut-n-but.net><4D693EBD.90801@nut-n-but.net><988DAF62-AE3A-4F58-B540-7337B00F5B14@ripon.edu><4D6A392B.2050204@nut-n-but.net><69362.17767.qm@web180515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4D6A850D.8010507@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <737532E513CA40B084384A36B9C15E4A@RobinLaptopPC> This engagement of the thread with Whitman makes me realise that I've a set of unexamined assumptions sloshing around my head which I don't know where they came from. Specifically, that formally Whitman simply develops what was already done by William Blake, so there's not that much new there. In neither case would I characterise what's being done as "free verse", though it's certainly outside the narrow bounds of the iambic pentameter, or syllable-accent metre generally. (But then, reading David's post of the "Damn it all, Whitman" Pound poem, I had to think twice to realise it was free verse, and that was only after I'd reminded myself that it doesn't begin, "Damn it all, Robert Browning". Confusion worse confounded. I suppose when I think of "free verse", my major sense of what it is, is the sub-variety developed specifically by Eliot and Pound, a variant manifesting the loosened or extended iambic under the influence of, as Bob points out, the French.) I don't think Whitman ever had the impact in the UK that he had in the US -- the closest the Barbaric Yawp school of poetry came to being institutionalised in the UK was Michael Horovitz's anthology, _Children of Albion_, with a cover from Blake's illustrations. Somehow, for all of me, the Whitman-Ginsberg line of writing is very specifically American, and goes with a taste for Hiawatha and an over-admiration for Robert Frost. American Exceptionalism once more. Now Emily Dickinson ... I don't know whether it's just me, or if there's a general UK consensus that the only American poet in the entire course of the nineteenth century who is worth paying the least blind bit of attention to is Ms. Dickinson. Whitman and the Transcendentalists that Bob points to -- now *there's* something else too simply American for words!! *And* Whitman, and this is sometimes instanced as an example of his populist credentials, evinced an admiration for the New York journalist (among other things, one of which was editing _The Subterranean_) Mike Walsh. Mike Walsh as a hero of American Labour -- geeuz a break, jimmy! One of the few useful things that Boss Tweed ever did was arranging for (Captain) Ike Rynders to knock off Walsh after Walsh became more trouble than he was worth to Tammany Hall and the NY Democratic political machine generally. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry List" Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2011 12:08 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] My Post on Whitman Again, Revised > On 2/27/2011 9:27 AM, Russ Golata wrote: >> I think you are missing out on the spirit of nationalism that influenced >> Whitman. I am sure he read the romantics, as did most of the people in >> America. >> This is what lead him to create a new American poetry. Besides Emerson, >> who was >> an influential stateside poet? Your palmist interpertation is a wonderful >> way to >> look at Whitman. Eliot and Pound took free verse to the next level, but >> it was >> Whitman that kicked open the door. > That's the accepted version, and Whitman certainly helped, but we'd have > free verse without him, thanks to the French. > > --Bob > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com Sun Feb 27 13:13:50 2011 From: robin.hamilton3 at virginmedia.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 13:13:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman Again, Revised In-Reply-To: <6871F132-2985-4363-BF56-5BF83350DDC5@ripon.edu> References: <8CDA3382CA64596-970-143F2@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com><375509.92188.qm@web161915.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><4D6936E9.7000109@nut-n-but.net><4D693EBD.90801@nut-n-but.net> <988DAF62-AE3A-4F58-B540-7337B00F5B14@ripon.edu><4D6A392B.2050204@nut-n-but.net> <6871F132-2985-4363-BF56-5BF83350DDC5@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <50B88C4DA56E419382DDEB3A44782F50@RobinLaptopPC> > On Feb 27, 2011, at 5:44 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> The big problem with judging the influence of Whitman is that so much of >> it had to do with his dumping standard formalism. I consider him a >> formalist, a psalmist, using parallelism in place of meter and rhyme as >> his formal device of repetition. Few, like Ginsberg, have followed him >> in that. > > -------------------------------------- > > In that final sentence, there's a statement so utterly at odds with my > sense of things that I wonder if it's a typo. "Not a few," perhaps? > > ======================================== > David Graham Odd -- I had exactly the opposite reaction, reading the passage by Bob that David draws attention to, that as it stands, Bob is stating the (to me) obvious. Standing at a certain point and looking from the outside in, what shows up in this stretch of American poetry is "Howl" waving back to "Song of Myself", with nothing of significance between and not much after. Sure, lots of "influenced by" writers, I'm sure, but as a tradition of writing, it's strictly a two trick (or three, if you count in Blake) pony and cart. Robin From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Feb 27 13:19:48 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 12:19:48 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman's music In-Reply-To: <737532E513CA40B084384A36B9C15E4A@RobinLaptopPC> References: <8CDA3382CA64596-970-143F2@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com><375509.92188.qm@web161915.mail.bf1.yahoo.com><4D6936E9.7000109@nut-n-but.net><4D693EBD.90801@nut-n-but.net><988DAF62-AE3A-4F58-B540-7337B00F5B14@ripon.edu><4D6A392B.2050204@nut-n-but.net><69362.17767.qm@web180515.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> <4D6A850D.8010507@nut-n-but.net> <737532E513CA40B084384A36B9C15E4A@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <285CCAD5-B178-4D1F-BCE0-7BF4FA20B463@ripon.edu> For some time, one thing "sloshing around in my head" (thanks for that phrase, Robin!) has been that Whitman's free verse was often quite different from the free verse of early 20th Century poets like Amy Lowell & the other Imagists in one important way. By that I mean that Whitman never exploited the potential of enjambment. From start to finish he's all end-stopped. The usual influences on Whitman that are cited--Blake's prophetic books, Smart, the King James Bible, Italian opera, 19th Century pulpit oratory--are all quite accurate, I think. Like his work they operate via parallelism, catalog, anaphora, and so forth--but never enjambment. I'm ignorant of the French tradition except in translation, I confess: did the first writers of vers libre exploit enjambment? ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Feb 27, 2011, at 11:56 AM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > This engagement of the thread with Whitman makes me realise that I've a set of unexamined assumptions sloshing around my head which I don't know where they came from. > > Specifically, that formally Whitman simply develops what was already done by William Blake, so there's not that much new there. > > In neither case would I characterise what's being done as "free verse", though it's certainly outside the narrow bounds of the iambic pentameter, or syllable-accent metre generally. > > (But then, reading David's post of the "Damn it all, Whitman" Pound poem, I had to think twice to realise it was free verse, and that was only after I'd reminded myself that it doesn't begin, "Damn it all, Robert Browning". Confusion worse confounded. I suppose when I think of "free verse", my major sense of what it is, is the sub-variety developed specifically by Eliot and Pound, a variant manifesting the loosened or extended iambic under the influence of, as Bob points out, the French.) > > I don't think Whitman ever had the impact in the UK that he had in the US -- the closest the Barbaric Yawp school of poetry came to being institutionalised in the UK was Michael Horovitz's anthology, _Children of Albion_, with a cover from Blake's illustrations. Somehow, for all of me, the Whitman-Ginsberg line of writing is very specifically American, and goes with a taste for Hiawatha and an over-admiration for Robert Frost. American Exceptionalism once more. > From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Sun Feb 27 13:46:37 2011 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 10:46:37 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman Again, Revised In-Reply-To: <50B88C4DA56E419382DDEB3A44782F50@RobinLaptopPC> References: <8CDA3382CA64596-970-143F2@webmail-d075.sysops.aol.com> <375509.92188.qm@web161915.mail.bf1.yahoo.com> <4D6936E9.7000109@nut-n-but.net> <4D693EBD.90801@nut-n-but.net> <988DAF62-AE3A-4F58-B540-7337B00F5B14@ripon.edu> <4D6A392B.2050204@nut-n-but.net> <6871F132-2985-4363-BF56-5BF83350DDC5@ripon.edu> <50B88C4DA56E419382DDEB3A44782F50@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: Lindsay, Sandburg... Dickinson just as influenced by Emerson wonder about the massive number of contemporary poets influenced by the transcendentalists, apparently more than by the British Romantics? From junction at earthlink.net Sun Feb 27 14:06:21 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 14:06:21 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Whitman Again, Revised Message-ID: <22918287.1298833581332.JavaMail.root@mswamui-blood.atl.sa.earthlink.net> And Frank O'Hara. -----Original Message----- >From: Robin Hamilton >Sent: Feb 27, 2011 1:13 PM >To: NewPoetry List >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Whitman Again, Revised > >> On Feb 27, 2011, at 5:44 AM, Bob Grumman wrote: >> >>> The big problem with judging the influence of Whitman is that so much of >>> it had to do with his dumping standard formalism. I consider him a >>> formalist, a psalmist, using parallelism in place of meter and rhyme as >>> his formal device of repetition. Few, like Ginsberg, have followed him >>> in that. >> >> -------------------------------------- >> >> In that final sentence, there's a statement so utterly at odds with my >> sense of things that I wonder if it's a typo. "Not a few," perhaps? >> >> ======================================== >> David Graham > >Odd -- I had exactly the opposite reaction, reading the passage by Bob that >David draws attention to, that as it stands, Bob is stating the (to me) >obvious. Standing at a certain point and looking from the outside in, what >shows up in this stretch of American poetry is "Howl" waving back to "Song >of Myself", with nothing of significance between and not much after. > >Sure, lots of "influenced by" writers, I'm sure, but as a tradition of >writing, it's strictly a two trick (or three, if you count in Blake) pony >and cart. > >Robin > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jlm8047 at louisiana.edu Sun Feb 27 14:06:50 2011 From: jlm8047 at louisiana.edu (Jerry McGuire) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 13:06:50 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D6AA0CA.6070401@louisiana.edu> It's interesting how this thread (I first typed "threat"--nice revision!) keeps wobbling back and forth between the poets most important to a given respondent and a list of "greatest" poets (list of ten greatest pie bakers; list of ten greatest whistlers; list of ten greatest horses). I've avoided it because the latter seems pointless at best; also because of an unpleasant case of the ad hominems that were percolating early ("idiots," etc., as a generic marker for people doing a certain job). Anyway, if you watch people swim long enough, even if half of them are drowning and half of them are Olympians, you wind up sticking in your toe, at least. Several people not yet mentioned (I think) who've been very important for me are Robinson Jeffers, Louis Zukofsky, and Robert Creeley (granted that he held onto his dear breath until '05, bless him); among older-timers: Basho, Li Po, John Clare, Gerard Manley Hopkins, Lewis Carroll, The King James Bible, and Mother Goose. Of course, there are writers whose influence so permeates the writing world that denying their fundamental influence on what _anyone_ does seems like an historical clinker, to me: Shakespeare, Whitman, and Dickinson permeate that way pretty much for everyone, at least in the western world, I think; maybe Blake, too, and it's pretty easy to name a few more; but in a (more) strictly personal sense, I'm thinking of the jazzwork of Langston Hughes (which only gets kickstarted and made accessible, for me, in Amiri Baraka), of a variety of jokers of various persuasions, including Ogden Nash and Frank O'Hara, and (because of deep affinities and empathic identification), Anonymous. Best, Jerry Anny Ballardini wrote: > Yes, and Hoelderlin. > > On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 2:11 PM, Anny Ballardini > > wrote: > > I think that of all the lists sent to this list (talk of Whitman > and his repetitions...) I would side with Crisman and take out > Lorca and insert Borges, accept Baudelaire, Villon, add Pound, > Schiller (whom I have thought superior to the same Goethe, didn't > he write with the bust of his friend close-by?), Trackl, Rimbaud > in his feverish addiction, (and many more) - I am probably closer > to those who have left us a long time ago > because I did study literature when I was a teen and continued, > later, but when I had time. That is why my teen Poets have had a > lot to say to me. > > On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 12:02 AM, Crisman Cooley > > wrote: > > Okay, I'll play. Many poets are left off only because I'm too > ignorant of their work to say. Even if I had read every poet > who ever lived, I would never say any were the "greatest", > because that judgment expresses pejorative stupidity, I > think (my definition of stupid is denying to yourself what you > suspect might be true to better serve your own interests), as > if there were some absolute standard. Obviously these poets > are just the ones who please me most, although they are not > listed in order of how much they please me, but how important > I consider their contribution to be. So, I'd rather read > Eliot than Blake, but Blake reinvented religion. That seems > more important to me than Eliot's exquisite whining. Lorca and > Baudelaire invent the ethos of their time & place, which seems > more important to me than Verlaine's beautiful phoniness. > Shakespeare is first because I could literally stop reading > everyone else in the world and be entirely satisfied with him. > Homer, first poet in our world, who understood poetry through > his (their) ears. Sappho, the greatest musician among poets > (though her music, even more than her poetry, takes some > imagining :). Goethe, because like Shakespeare, he evokes awe > in me at the grandeur of his vision. I could also spend my > life with Ovid. > > I have not erased sexism of the ages, but at least have > abandoned strict Anglophilia. > > 1. Shakespeare > 2. Homer > 3. Sappho > 4. Goethe > 5. Blake > 6. Ovid > 7. Lorca > 8. Keats > 9. Dante > 10. Dickinson > > Honorable mention: Yeats, Akhmatova, Mallarm?, Catullus, > Baudelaire, Eliot, Plath, Villon. > > Purposely left off: > Virgil (a chauvinist before Chauvin). > Donne (because his work seems to me too obscure). > Milton (his music to my ears lags well behind his learning). > Whitman (takes the specific and makes it general -- the > opposite business to the one I think a poet should be in). > Stevens (who appears to me to be hallucinating in an anaerobic > closet). > > My favorite post-1960 poet so far: > Ted Hughes > > I find it curious that the huge majority of visitors to > New-Poetry > refrain from getting into discussions like who the top ten > poets are. > David Graham and I seem almost the only ones who ever have > the, what? > gall? arrogance? foolishness? indifference to hurting the > feelings of > those who may disagree with us? to do so. I think it's > fun and don't > understand why others don't. > > Anyway, the ten pre-c.1960 poets who have meant most to me > as a poet > (all men, no doubt because I'm a man but also because it > would seem > previous literary establishments, with the aid of the ill > effects of > time, have kept the poetry of all but a very few women > from reaching me, > Sappho's--for instance--being much too fragmentary to > rate), and almost > all English-speaking because that's my only language) are > (I think): E. > E. Cummings, Theodore Roethke, Wallace Stevens (these > three in a tie for > the top, the next seven in no particular order), John > Keats, W. B. > Yeats, Ezra Pound, Basho (in English because translations > of his work > are effective enough for me to rate him as high as I do), > Robert Frost, > Wordsworth, and Dylan Thomas. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a > dancing star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a > dancing star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Prof. Jerry McGuire Dept. of English University of Louisiana at Lafayette jlm8047 at louisiana.edu 337-482-5478 From david.weinstock at gmail.com Sun Feb 27 15:09:20 2011 From: david.weinstock at gmail.com (David Weinstock) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 15:09:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: <4D6AA0CA.6070401@louisiana.edu> References: <4D6AA0CA.6070401@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: Jerry!!!! From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 27 16:02:41 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 22:02:41 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pam Brown Message-ID: My first book was printed at night, clandestinely, on paper and card offcuts at an offset printery where a friend worked during the day. It was an after-hours ?underground? publication. It was 1971, in Melbourne. The book, ?Sureblock?, was anti-copyright - ?if anyone wants these poems use them?, said the flyleaf. And they were used - two films were made from poems about a couple of female outlaws and poems turned up in womens? liberation newspapers and other magazines. http://robmclennan.blogspot.com/2011/02/12-or-20-second-series-questions-with.html -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Feb 27 16:04:44 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 22:04:44 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: References: <4D6AA0CA.6070401@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: Yes, Mother Goose! On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 9:09 PM, David Weinstock wrote: > Jerry!!!! > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Sun Feb 27 16:31:28 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 15:31:28 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] An obit to die for Message-ID: Here's an obit to die for: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/27/arts/27landesman.html?hpw "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home *Mainly Black , **Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ;* *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; * ***Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; * ***G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Sun Feb 27 18:13:28 2011 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 15:13:28 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March 13 and 14, 2011 In-Reply-To: <09DBEEEADC424B58B9767CAF836A034E@LarryPC> References: <09DBEEEADC424B58B9767CAF836A034E@LarryPC> Message-ID: ??????????? "Poetry has the power to bring us together, help us find a language of connection and unity, and through that discovery, craft lives of greater meaning and build communities of greater strength," Caryn Mirriam-Goldberg, poet laureate of Kansas, and organizer of a national event bringing together poets laureate from throughout the U.S. "In our convergence, we'll be looking and speaking about what poetry has to say about our social fabric, spiritual paths, and healing potential for ourselves and our culture." ??????????? 20 poets laureate, including former U.S. poet laureate Ted Kooser, are coming to Lawrence Kansas, March 13-14 for POET LAUREATI: A NATIONAL CONVERGENCE OF STATE POETS LAUREATE. The event, organized by United Poets Laureate -- a group of Midwestern Poets Laureate -- brings together U.S. poet laureate Ted Kooser, plus W.E. Butts (NH), Marilyn L. Taylor (WI), Peggy Shumaker (AK), Walter Bargen (MO), Mary Swander (IA), Caryn Mirriam-Goldberg (KS), Sue Brennan Walker (AL), Lisa Starr (RI), Denise Low (KS), Norbert Krapf (IN), Marjory Wentworth (SC), Mary Crow (CO), David Romtvedt (WY), David Evans (SD), Jonathan Holden (KS), Joyce Brinkman (IN), Karla Morton (TX), Bruce Dethlefsen (WI) and Carolyn Kreiter-Foronda (VA). ??????????? ?It's a landmark poetry extravaganza that brings together some of our nation's best poets, who are deeply involved in and committed to serving their communities and showing us how the poetry can show us more of who we are, where we live, and how to make the most of our lives,? explains Caryn Mirriam-Goldberg, poet laureate of Kansas and organizer of the convergence. ??????????? The convergence features several public readings, museum tours at the University of Kansas' Spencer Museum of Art with a poet laureate, an auction to win dinner at a local restaurant with a poet laureate, an all-day conference featuring panels on poetry as it relates to healing, the land, spirituality, publishing, making a living and the process of writing. This event is also the book launch for An Endless Skyway: Poetry from the State Poets Laureate of America (Ice Cube Books), an anthology featuring close to 40 poets laureate. The convergence is co-sponsored by the Lawrence Arts Center, Spencer Museum of Art, Lawrence Publicty Library, Raven Bookstore, Ice Cube Books, Free State Brewery, Kansas Area Watershed Council, Kansas Arts Commission and Community Mercantile. ??????????? For full information, please see www.UnitedPoetsLaureate.wordpress.com. Registration is available on-line, and at the website, there is information on accommodations. From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Feb 27 20:17:51 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 20:17:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March 13 and 14, 2011 In-Reply-To: References: <09DBEEEADC424B58B9767CAF836A034E@LarryPC> Message-ID: <4D6AF7BF.4070501@nut-n-but.net> On 2/27/2011 6:13 PM, Catherine Daly wrote: > "Poetry has the power to bring us together, help us find a > language of connection and unity, and through that discovery, craft > lives of greater meaning and build communities of greater strength," > Caryn Mirriam-Goldberg, poet laureate of Kansas, and organizer of a > national event bringing together poets laureate from throughout the > U.S. "In our convergence, we'll be looking and speaking about what > poetry has to say about our social fabric, spiritual paths, and > healing potential for ourselves and our culture." . That pretty much sums up what poetry is not for me. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sun Feb 27 20:36:17 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 20:36:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: <4D6AA0CA.6070401@louisiana.edu> References: <4D6AA0CA.6070401@louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <4D6AFC11.2020104@nut-n-but.net> On 2/27/2011 2:06 PM, Jerry McGuire wrote: > It's interesting how this thread (I first typed "threat"--nice > revision!) keeps wobbling back and forth between the poets most > important to a given respondent and a list of "greatest" poets (list > of ten greatest pie bakers; list of ten greatest whistlers; list of > ten greatest horses). I've avoided it because the latter seems > pointless at best; also because of an unpleasant case of the ad > hominems that were percolating early ("idiots," etc., as a generic > marker for people doing a certain job). . Smug superciliousness is always preferable to calling people idiots. Of course, there are writers whose influence so permeates the writing world that denying their fundamental influence on what _anyone_ does seems like an historical clinker, to me: Shakespeare, Whitman, and Dickinson permeate that way pretty much for everyone, at least in the western world, I think; I guess I'm only aware of the direct influences on me as a poet, and maybe not of all of them. But I can't see that Emily has influenced me in any significant way, nor can I think of any poet who takes after her the way Ginsberg (or Sandburg and a few others I forgot before because their kind of poetry is so much not my kind) takes after Whitman. I've often said that influences are extremely hard to work out. Roethke has his moments of high affirmation that suggest Whitman, but Wordsworth had them, too. While speaking of Wordsworth, I think he is a main influence on Emerson and may even be a father of transcendalism. I see the outlook of most American poetry as coming from Wordsworth through Emerson to Frost and Stevens. Very roughly. It seems to me Whitman has had very little influence on me although my over-all outlook on existence is similar in many respects to hi, but I got that from Emerson, and Wordsworth (actually Keats, who got it from Wordsworth). --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Feb 27 20:51:44 2011 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 19:51:44 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: <4D6AFC11.2020104@nut-n-but.net> References: <4D6AA0CA.6070401@louisiana.edu> <4D6AFC11.2020104@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <27FD6D20-9E44-4270-AFB4-08B5759767E7@ripon.edu> On Feb 27, 2011, at 7:36 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > I've often said that influences are extremely hard to work out. Roethke has his moments of high affirmation that suggest Whitman, but Wordsworth had them, too. =============== For someone so focused on technical matters, Bob, it's odd that you don't mention the huge influence Whitman's technique had on subsequent poets, but focus instead on things like "moments of high affirmation." Hint: guess the author of the line, "Be with me, Whitman, maker of catalogues." Emerson did indeed stir the pot for both Whitman and Dickinson, but his poetry was simply not greatly influential in technical terms for later poets. In contrast, poets as varied as Fearing, Lindsay, Hughes, Sandburg, Roethke, Ginsberg, Rukeyser, and many more seem as much influenced by Whitman's technique as his ideas. By the time of the Beats, the original New York School, and the Black Mountain crew, I'd say elements of Whitman's music are pretty pervasive. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Feb 27 21:11:33 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 21:11:33 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March 13 and 14, 2011 Message-ID: <10480206.1298859093688.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Yup. -----Original Message----- >From: Bob Grumman >Sent: Feb 27, 2011 8:17 PM >To: NewPoetry List >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March 13 and 14, 2011 > >On 2/27/2011 6:13 PM, Catherine Daly wrote: >> "Poetry has the power to bring us together, help us find a >> language of connection and unity, and through that discovery, craft >> lives of greater meaning and build communities of greater strength," >> Caryn Mirriam-Goldberg, poet laureate of Kansas, and organizer of a >> national event bringing together poets laureate from throughout the >> U.S. "In our convergence, we'll be looking and speaking about what >> poetry has to say about our social fabric, spiritual paths, and >> healing potential for ourselves and our culture." >. >That pretty much sums up what poetry is not for me. > >--Bob >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Feb 28 02:00:08 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 08:00:08 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Grace Cavalieri on miporadio Message-ID: * * * CLICK the gray below for PART 3 on Pinsky, Jacobsen, Collins, Kooser, Nemerov, Meredith, Lowell, Clifton* Grace Cavalieri's INNUENDOES and ON LOCATION ------------------------------ Grace Notes: Robert Hayden ? miPOradio Posted: 20 Feb 2011 06:07 AM PST Robert Hayden is an example in America where a poet ?s writing becomes part of a struggle to define what the role of a poet is in society. As a black writer, his work was criticized by members of the Black Nationalist movement in the 60?s. He addresses this in an introduction to the 1967 anthology *Kaleidoscope.*which he edited. Robert Hayden moved literature toward an even broader and deeper African American voice than had previously existed. His consciousness of the black struggle from slavery to the present is one subject he wrote about, taking the past, making narratives and stories of legend, that were more than a retelling of history. He used his dramatic voice in the poem MIDDLE PASSAGE, which tells the story of the slave ship Armistad, What is important in his early work is the way Hayden honors the English tradition in poetry up to his own time and, takes it one step further into modernism, to the time when William Carlos Williams and Charles Olson and other innovators were changing American poetry on the page forevermore. He was not imitating the traditionalists, nor the modernists he was incorporating and modifying styles. But the voice was always Hayden?s, the topics were Hayden?s, the fervor was unique to his experience as a black man in America sometimes using folklore, sermons, jazz syncopation, and song chants in the line. He was originally influenced by writers of the Harlem Renaissance such as Countee Cullen and Langston Hughes. But he also studied with W H Auden. And was affected by TS Eliot?s use of myth, Hayden proved that mythology can be more than philosophical speculation. It can be centered in real topics which real people care about, in his case black people. It is important to say that Robert Hayden was a member of the B?hai faith. His is a peaceful essence and for this he has made an indelible mark on American letters .His writing shows his belief in humanity , and reverence for all human life, all races, all creeds, He spoke of the oneness of mankind and the importance of arts in that struggle .His poetry examines what makes community. A quiet, modest man, Hayden once said ? reticence has its esthetic values too? Robert Hayden may have been among the first artist to advocate multiculturalism. The poem ?Those Winter Sundays,? from his book *A Ballad of Remembrance* is used in most college classrooms, and THOSE WINTER SUNDAYS is admired by most poets, as an example of a perfectly realized poem. The last stanza about the young boy who realizes his father?s sacrifices in unforgettable: Speaking indifferently to him, who had driven out the cold and polished my good shoes as well. What did I know, what did I know of love?s austere and lonely offices? Grace Notes: Robert Hayden ? miPOradio . This posting includes an audio/video/photo media file: Download Now Grace Notes: Elizabeth Bishop ? miPOradio Posted: 20 Feb 2011 05:56 AM PST If there is one adjective that describes Elizabeth Bishop, it is *curious*.How else can we explain the way she looked at the world?s detail as if with the lens of a camera. If we were to choose one verb, surely it would be *observing, *for Bishop?s poetry is about methods and ways of seeing, as a visual artist sees. Her gaze was an investigation of the physical reality of whatever country or character she described. There is no ego at the center of her poems. You will not find her in the middle of the landscape, although she lived at a time when confessional poetry was promising; she remains private, letting objects and scenes speak for her emotions. What we do see is a world translated into language. Sometimes a meditative line harks back to her honored metaphysical poets, who also spoke indirectly. She is called a ?poet?s poet? because ? in reading her? we know what she *saw* represented what it *meant* to her. The writing is in the tradition of the English lyric yet sounds completely American in tone and word choice. She is a combination of formal and colloquial, polished in craft and form, and yet spontaneous and surprising, for example using an exclamation in the middle of a line. Her work sometimes trails into the surreal which is understandable because of the 20 years she lived in Latin America, translating the work, immersed in the culture. Elizabeth Bishop wasorphaned at an early age, and scholars track the image of the house and home throughout her poetry as representing longing ? maybe the domestic image is notable because it is different from the male counterparts writing at that time ? but it is true the house image recurs often and so does the sense of loss. She writes of time and timelessness with no regard given to life beyond. It is as if eternity is in her rivers and trees, the greens and yellows of speech. Elizabeth Bishop lived at a time when women were slowly entering the literary establishment, yet she was an influence on Robert Lowell, and even her senior poet Marianne Moore. Many cite her as ?what is best in the last century of poetry.? I like her poem ?ONE ART?, so different from her travel poems. We hear her speak her feelings without objectifying them, we feel her inner life, and we hear her strength. ? One Art? ends with these lines: ? Even losing you (the joking voice, a gesture/ I love) I shan?t have lied. It?s evident/ the art of losing?s not too hard to master/though it may look like (Write it!) like disaster. ? Grace Notes: Elizabeth Bishop ? miPOradio . This posting includes an audio/video/photo media file: Download Now -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 28 06:46:29 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 06:46:29 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Top 10 Poets: Who are the Greatest? In-Reply-To: <27FD6D20-9E44-4270-AFB4-08B5759767E7@ripon.edu> References: <4D6AA0CA.6070401@louisiana.edu> <4D6AFC11.2020104@nut-n-but.net> <27FD6D20-9E44-4270-AFB4-08B5759767E7@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4D6B8B15.2090602@nut-n-but.net> On 2/27/2011 8:51 PM, David Graham wrote: > > > On Feb 27, 2011, at 7:36 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> I've often said that influences are extremely hard to work out. >> Roethke has his moments of high affirmation that suggest Whitman, but >> Wordsworth had them, too. > =============== > > For someone so focused on technical matters, Bob, it's odd that you > don't mention the huge influence Whitman's technique had on subsequent > poets, but focus instead on things like "moments of high affirmation." > Hint: guess the author of the line, "Be with me, Whitman, maker of > catalogues." > > Emerson did indeed stir the pot for both Whitman and Dickinson, but > his poetry was simply not greatly influential in technical terms for > later poets. In contrast, poets as varied as Fearing, Lindsay, > Hughes, Sandburg, Roethke, Ginsberg, Rukeyser, and many more seem as > much influenced by Whitman's technique as his ideas. By the time of > the Beats, the original New York School, and the Black Mountain crew, > I'd say elements of Whitman's music are pretty pervasive. I just don't see it, David, but it's probably because catalogue poems and the like don't interest me much--but also because I don't think Whitman originated them. I suppose I'm not excited by changes of form as a technique, either. I think of him as making poems with long lines, and using a metrical forms of repetition, and--other than that--gushing, and gushing more about himself than was common to poets in English before him. But, yes, he influenced more poets than I at first thought--I'd forgotten Olson, for instance (and my posts should be taken as brainstorming more than as anything like attempts to be definitive)--because his big thing, it seems to me, was the use of the page he got from Cummings, although his language-poet followers ignore Cummings. An essay detailing Whitman's techniques might be useful. A really thorough study of the evolution of techniques in poetry would be great to have, too, but I'm certain there isn't one, although there probably have been texts written on most of the strictly verbal techniques up to 1950. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 28 08:00:54 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 08:00:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Dickinsonian Twist In-Reply-To: <4D6B8B15.2090602@nut-n-but.net> References: <4D6AA0CA.6070401@louisiana.edu><4D6AFC11.2020104@nut-n-bu t.net><27FD6D20-9E44-4270-AFB4-08B5759767E7@ripon.edu> <4D6B8B15.2090602@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4D6B9C86.9020507@nut-n-but.net> I think I've underestimated the importance of the way poets perceive existence. I think this is because I tend to assume that everyone has a special way of perceiving it which, in a poet, will come out in the poet's style, and that styles are equal though different. But I was thinking about how Frost looks at life slant, the way Emily did, and so could be said to have been influenced by her. It then seemed to me that Emily had a twisted perception of existence of value to her poetry, perhaps its main value, and that it had (important) influence. I remembered how I suddenly became aware of the similar way of perceiving existence that composers of haiku have (and Williams), and that I didn't, I don't think, until I'd been exposed to haiku. I'd say I had the potential to use an innate gift for seeing things the way haiku poets do, but didn't take advantage of it until I was more or less forced to use it when reading haiku. I still consider technique much more important to poetry than subject matter and, now, perception of existence or slant on things (I'd like a good term for it), but recognize the value of the latter more than I did. Another day in the slow education of BG. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 28 08:21:45 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 08:21:45 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Way of Considering Poetry In-Reply-To: <4D6B9C86.9020507@nut-n-but.net> References: <4D6AA0CA.6070401@louisiana.edu><4D6AFC11.2020104@nut-n-bu t.net><27FD6D20-9E44-4270-AFB4-08B5759767E7@ripon.edu><4D6B8B15.2090602@nut-n-but.net> <4D6B9C86.9020507@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4D6BA169.6030908@nut-n-but.net> Poetry is personal outlook on existence plus choice of subject matter plus choice of words plus choice and use of techniques. Have I left anything out? From GrahamD at ripon.edu Mon Feb 28 08:26:36 2011 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 07:26:36 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Way of Considering Poetry In-Reply-To: <4D6BA169.6030908@nut-n-but.net> References: <4D6AA0CA.6070401@louisiana.edu> <4D6AFC11.2020104@nut-n-bu t.net> <27FD6D20-9E44-4270-AFB4-08B5759767E7@ripon.edu> <4D6B8B15.2090602@nut-n-but.net> <4D6B9C86.9020507@nut-n-but.net> <4D6BA169.6030908@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <298A3D75-39B8-4D18-A8CB-6A837E112392@ripon.edu> You forgot the love.... =================== David Graham Grahamd at ripon.edu Home page: http://web.me.com/drjazz ==================== On Feb 28, 2011, at 7:14 AM, "Bob Grumman" wrote: > Poetry is personal outlook on existence plus choice of subject matter plus choice of words plus choice and use of techniques. Have I left anything out? > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From tad at opus40.org Mon Feb 28 09:44:14 2011 From: tad at opus40.org (Tad Richards) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 09:44:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March 13 and 14, 2011 In-Reply-To: <10480206.1298859093688.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <10480206.1298859093688.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: In the AWP panel I did with David Graham a few years ago, I made pretty much the opposite point -- that song is communal, and designed to bring people together, while poetry is mostly designed to take us deeper into ourselves. If I were a cynic, and looking to score cheap points, I could say that this is the most destructive force to hit Lawrence, Kansas, since Quantrell. But of course, I'm not. On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 9:11 PM, wrote: > Yup. > > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Bob Grumman > >Sent: Feb 27, 2011 8:17 PM > >To: NewPoetry List > >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March 13 > and 14, 2011 > > > >On 2/27/2011 6:13 PM, Catherine Daly wrote: > >> "Poetry has the power to bring us together, help us find a > >> language of connection and unity, and through that discovery, craft > >> lives of greater meaning and build communities of greater strength," > >> Caryn Mirriam-Goldberg, poet laureate of Kansas, and organizer of a > >> national event bringing together poets laureate from throughout the > >> U.S. "In our convergence, we'll be looking and speaking about what > >> poetry has to say about our social fabric, spiritual paths, and > >> healing potential for ourselves and our culture." > >. > >That pretty much sums up what poetry is not for me. > > > >--Bob > >_______________________________________________ > >New-Poetry mailing list > >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From GrahamD at ripon.edu Mon Feb 28 10:23:06 2011 From: GrahamD at ripon.edu (Graham, David) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 09:23:06 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March 13 and 14, 2011 In-Reply-To: References: <10480206.1298859093688.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4AAF82FB-DAD2-445F-A233-2718A19A1F01@ripon.edu> On Feb 28, 2011, at 8:44 AM, "Tad Richards" wrote: > In the AWP panel I did with David Graham a few years ago, I made pretty much the opposite point -- that song is communal, and designed to bring people together, while poetry is mostly designed to take us deeper into ourselves. ???????????????????? What about spoken word and slam poetry, then? Or for that matter, any open mic night at your local bar or school. Communal by definition. Not that performance in its many forms (including poetry and music) can't also take us deeper into ourselves while remaining a communal experience. =================== David Graham Grahamd at ripon.edu Home page: http://web.me.com/drjazz ==================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Mon Feb 28 10:39:37 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 07:39:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March 13 and 14, 2011 In-Reply-To: <10480206.1298859093688.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <10480206.1298859093688.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <424546.29458.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Yeah, you wouldn't want to come together with other poets and interrogate the social fabric -- you *never* do that. And searching for a common language within a community? Like finding out what makes a poem worthwhile and stuff like that? Yeah, right: never. Or did she just describe what you do here on New Poetry too "froofy ladylike" for you? Oh pardon, you only do those things in the name of poetry. My bad. -----Original Message----- >From: Bob Grumman >Sent: Feb 27, 2011 8:17 PM >To: NewPoetry List >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March 13 and 14, >2011 > >On 2/27/2011 6:13 PM, Catherine Daly wrote: >> "Poetry has the power to bring us together, help us find a >> language of connection and unity, and through that discovery, craft >> lives of greater meaning and build communities of greater strength," >> Caryn Mirriam-Goldberg, poet laureate of Kansas, and organizer of a >> national event bringing together poets laureate from throughout the >> U.S. "In our convergence, we'll be looking and speaking about what >> poetry has to say about our social fabric, spiritual paths, and >> healing potential for ourselves and our culture." >. >That pretty much sums up what poetry is not for me. > >--Bob >______________ From amyhappens at yahoo.com Mon Feb 28 10:41:17 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 07:41:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March 13 and 14, 2011 In-Reply-To: <10480206.1298859093688.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <10480206.1298859093688.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <440436.83130.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> And your homeboy here, he's got your back. But of course. 'Yup,' indeed. Y'all are above such female-y notions. ----- Original Message ---- From: "junction at earthlink.net" To: NewPoetry List Sent: Sun, February 27, 2011 9:11:33 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March 13 and 14, 2011 Yup. -----Original Message----- >From: Bob Grumman >Sent: Feb 27, 2011 8:17 PM >To: NewPoetry List >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March 13 and 14, >2011 > >On 2/27/2011 6:13 PM, Catherine Daly wrote: >> "Poetry has the power to bring us together, help us find a >> language of connection and unity, and through that discovery, craft >> lives of greater meaning and build communities of greater strength," >> Caryn Mirriam-Goldberg, poet laureate of Kansas, and organizer of a >> national event bringing together poets laureate from throughout the >> U.S. "In our convergence, we'll be looking and speaking about what >> poetry has to say about our social fabric, spiritual paths, and >> healing potential for ourselves and our culture." >. >That pretty much sums up what poetry is not for me. > >--Bob >_____________________________ From junction at earthlink.net Mon Feb 28 10:44:59 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 10:44:59 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March 13 and 14, 2011 Message-ID: <29741966.1298907899934.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Mon Feb 28 10:47:58 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 07:47:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] A Way of Considering Poetry In-Reply-To: <4D6BA169.6030908@nut-n-but.net> References: <4D6AA0CA.6070401@louisiana.edu><4D6AFC11.2020104@nut-n-bu t.net><27FD6D20-9E44-4270-AFB4-08B5759767E7@ripon.edu><4D6B8B15.2090602@nut-n-but.net> <4D6B9C86.9020507@nut-n-but.net> <4D6BA169.6030908@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <655940.90288.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Wow. And I thought being on an Assessment Committee at school would wound my relationship to creativity. Two plus four equals the end of poesy. "Poetry is the synthesis between hyacinths and biscuits." --Carl Sandburg ---- Original Message ---- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry List Sent: Mon, February 28, 2011 8:21:45 AM Subject: [New-Poetry] A Way of Considering Poetry Poetry is personal outlook on existence plus choice of subject matter plus choice of words plus choice and use of techniques. Have I left anything out? From cvoisine at nmsu.edu Mon Feb 28 10:50:01 2011 From: cvoisine at nmsu.edu (Connie Voisine) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 08:50:01 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March 13 and 14, 2011 In-Reply-To: <4AAF82FB-DAD2-445F-A233-2718A19A1F01@ripon.edu> References: <10480206.1298859093688.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <4AAF82FB-DAD2-445F-A233-2718A19A1F01@ripon.edu> Message-ID: what about the literary ballad? the epistolary form (think of who and how it connects to groups), or occasional poems or the riddle poem? there are kinds of forms that have, as part of their DNA, a call and response, or a social component, or a speaker who speaks for and to and group. The personal lyric is not the only kind of poem out there... c On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 8:23 AM, Graham, David wrote: > On Feb 28, 2011, at 8:44 AM, "Tad Richards" wrote: > > In the AWP panel I did with David Graham a few years ago, I made pretty much > the opposite point -- that song is communal, and designed to bring people > together, while poetry is mostly designed to take us deeper into ourselves. > > ???????????????????? > What about spoken word and slam poetry, then? ?Or for that matter, any open > mic night at your local bar or school. ?Communal by definition. > Not that performance in its many forms (including poetry and music) can't > also take us deeper into ourselves while remaining a communal experience. > =================== > David Graham > Grahamd at ripon.edu > Home page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > ==================== > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Connie Voisine Associate Professor of English New Mexico State University cvoisine at nmsu.edu 575-646-2027 From amyhappens at yahoo.com Mon Feb 28 11:03:16 2011 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 08:03:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Akilah Oliver 1961 - 2011 Message-ID: <371395.46943.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> We have just learned that our beloved friend, poet, teacher, performer, activist, mother, sister, Akilah Oliver passed away in her home in the Fort Greene section of Brooklyn, N.Y. Akilah Oliver was born in 1961 in L.A. In the 1990's she founded and performed with the feminist performance collective Sacred Naked Nature Girls. For several years, Akilah lived and raised her son Oluchi McDonald (1982-2003) in Boulder, Colorado where she was a teacher at Naropa University's Jack Kerouac School of Disembodied Poetics. Recently, in New York City, Akilah taught poetry and writing at Eugene Lang College, The New School, Pratt Insitute and The Poetry Project. She was a PhD candidate at The European Graduate School and a member of the Belladonna* Collaborative. Akilah Oliver's books include A Toast In The House of Friends (Coffee House 2009), the she said dialogues: flesh memory, a book of experimental prose poetry honored by the PEN American Center's "Open Book" program, and the chapbooks An Arriving Guard of Angels, Thusly Coming to Greet (Farfalla, McMillan & Parrish, 2004), The Putterer's Notebook (Belladonna 2006), a(A)ugust (Yo-Yo Labs, 2007) and A Collection of Objects (Tente 2010). She read and performed her work throughout the country as a solo artist and with a variety of musicians and collaborators including Tyler Burba, Anne Waldman, and Rasul Siddik. She was a artist in residence at Beyond Baroque Literary Arts Center in Los Angeles, and received grants from the California Arts Council, The Flintridge Foundation and the Rockefeller Foundation. Among her many other projects, she was writing a book-length theory of lamentation. Information about services and memorial will be forthcoming. We are collecting funds for Akilah's funeral expenses and to support activity to keep the memory of Akilah and her work alive! These contributions are tax deductible and can be made through Ether Sea Projects. Please include Akilah's name in the subject line if you are sending a check. Ether Sea Projects 925 Bergen Street; Suite 405 Brooklyn, NY 11238 Paypal donations -- Accessed through Litmus Press --- http://www.litmuspress.org/oliver.html From halvard at gmail.com Mon Feb 28 11:05:10 2011 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 10:05:10 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Way of Considering Poetry In-Reply-To: <655940.90288.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <4D6AA0CA.6070401@louisiana.edu> <27FD6D20-9E44-4270-AFB4-08B5759767E7@ripon.edu> <4D6B8B15.2090602@nut-n-but.net> <4D6B9C86.9020507@nut-n-but.net> <4D6BA169.6030908@nut-n-but.net> <655940.90288.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Right. Seems Bob's left everything out. "What does a poet need an unlisted number for?" --George Costanza Hal Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home *Mainly Black , **Obras P?blicas ; **The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets ;* *Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones ; **Tango Bouquet ; **Theory of Harmony ; * ***Rapsodie espagnole ; **Guide to the Tokyo Subway ; **The Sonnet Project ; * ***G(e)nome ; **Winter Journey ; **Eclipse ; **The Dance of the Red Swan ; * *Transparencies & Projections * On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 9:47 AM, amy king wrote: > Wow. And I thought being on an Assessment Committee at school would wound > my > relationship to creativity. Two plus four equals the end of poesy. > > > "Poetry is the synthesis between hyacinths and biscuits." --Carl Sandburg > > > > ---- Original Message ---- > > From: Bob Grumman > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Mon, February 28, 2011 8:21:45 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] A Way of Considering Poetry > > Poetry is personal outlook on existence plus choice of subject matter plus > choice of words plus choice and use of techniques. Have I left anything > out? > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Feb 28 11:09:03 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 11:09:03 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March 13 and 14, 2011 Message-ID: <736894.1298909344094.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I'm not sure where the animus is coming from, Amy. Mirriam-Goldberg isn't writing as a woman, or even as a poet, but as a bureaucrat of poetry, and a bunch of other male and female poetry bureaucrats (some of whom may even write good poetry when they're not fulfilling their bureaucratic functions)are tacitly agreeing by attending. Certainly the same sentiments have come out of the mouths of poets of all genders. Presumably they're not paying for their own transportation. At issue is an attempt to propose the relevance of poetry in a society in which relevance is weighed by the pound. Its thrust is for a poetry that acts to build community. A two-edged sword, and I use the military metaphor an purose--imagine a gathering of poets or cultural officials who saw themselves in the service of building consensus for war or genocide. Not, unfortunately, unheard-of. In our current situation, in which poetry has been bureaucratized, or at least the teaching and a lot of the publication of it, poetry has paradoxically become a more anarchic place than ever. We have laureates, but it's difficult to even imagine a national poet. The comments you criticize come from, broadly speaking, an aestheticist perspective. I don't entirely share it, but I doubt that it's inherently gendered. Best, Mark -----Original Message----- >From: amy king >Sent: Feb 28, 2011 10:41 AM >To: NewPoetry List >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March 13 and 14, 2011 > >And your homeboy here, he's got your back. But of course. 'Yup,' indeed. >Y'all are above such female-y notions. > > > > >----- Original Message ---- >From: "junction at earthlink.net" >To: NewPoetry List >Sent: Sun, February 27, 2011 9:11:33 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March 13 and 14, >2011 > >Yup. > > >-----Original Message----- >>From: Bob Grumman >>Sent: Feb 27, 2011 8:17 PM >>To: NewPoetry List >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March 13 and 14, >>2011 >> >>On 2/27/2011 6:13 PM, Catherine Daly wrote: >>> "Poetry has the power to bring us together, help us find a >>> language of connection and unity, and through that discovery, craft >>> lives of greater meaning and build communities of greater strength," >>> Caryn Mirriam-Goldberg, poet laureate of Kansas, and organizer of a >>> national event bringing together poets laureate from throughout the >>> U.S. "In our convergence, we'll be looking and speaking about what >>> poetry has to say about our social fabric, spiritual paths, and >>> healing potential for ourselves and our culture." >>. >>That pretty much sums up what poetry is not for me. >> >>--Bob >>_____________________________ > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From ccooley at overdomain.com Mon Feb 28 11:15:22 2011 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 08:15:22 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March Message-ID: I propose a New-Poetry party. All of us will travel to San Miguel de Allende -- Jim C. & Hal will host. In the daytime, we'll go to Las Grutas de Escondido & soak in warm water pools. At night, we'll go to Berlin's. We can continue the discussion and have some fun that is funny, to quote a great poet, the Cat in the Hat. > Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 07:39:37 -0800 (PST) > From: amy king > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March > 13 and 14, 2011 > > Yeah, you wouldn't want to come together with other poets and interrogate > the > social fabric -- you *never* do that. And searching for a common language > within a community? Like finding out what makes a poem worthwhile and > stuff > like that? Yeah, right: never. > > > > Or did she just describe what you do here on New Poetry too "froofy > ladylike" > for you? Oh pardon, you only do those things in the name of poetry. My > bad. > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fox.skip at gmail.com Mon Feb 28 11:19:51 2011 From: fox.skip at gmail.com (Skip Fox) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 10:19:51 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Akilah Oliver 1961 - 2011 In-Reply-To: <371395.46943.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <371395.46943.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: *Poetry that brings us together* compared to* that which takes us further into ourselves*. Interesting distinction. What about the vibrant place the distinction disappears? Where going further in gives evidence of a deep commonality. My first question of a piece of art, or the question which drives all others ultimately, is very simple: How was it for you? When an artist shows me that in a good work, there is usually a significant level of recognition. Even with those whose artistic works or worlds or beliefs are very different than my own. But I do like the distinction. My experience of those who would sing of commonality seem to live in a series of underconsidered notions of what they are about. Granted they might intelligently base their views of the common in good political motivation or in the great work of a number of past artists like Whitman and Sandburg. My Eruo's worth. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cvoisine at nmsu.edu Mon Feb 28 11:21:19 2011 From: cvoisine at nmsu.edu (Connie Voisine) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 09:21:19 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Way of Considering Poetry In-Reply-To: <655940.90288.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <4D6AA0CA.6070401@louisiana.edu> <27FD6D20-9E44-4270-AFB4-08B5759767E7@ripon.edu> <4D6B8B15.2090602@nut-n-but.net> <4D6B9C86.9020507@nut-n-but.net> <4D6BA169.6030908@nut-n-but.net> <655940.90288.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: btw--how are you assessing poetry in your committee? i mean, how? c On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 8:47 AM, amy king wrote: > Wow. ?And I thought being on an Assessment Committee at school would wound my > relationship to creativity. ?Two plus four equals the end of poesy. > > > "Poetry is the synthesis between hyacinths and biscuits." ?--Carl Sandburg > > > > ?---- Original Message ---- > > From: Bob Grumman > To: NewPoetry List > Sent: Mon, February 28, 2011 8:21:45 AM > Subject: [New-Poetry] A Way of Considering Poetry > > Poetry is personal outlook on existence plus choice of subject matter plus > choice of words plus choice and use of techniques. ?Have I left anything out? > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Connie Voisine Associate Professor of English New Mexico State University cvoisine at nmsu.edu 575-646-2027 From fox.skip at gmail.com Mon Feb 28 11:21:35 2011 From: fox.skip at gmail.com (Skip Fox) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 10:21:35 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March 13 and 14, 2011 In-Reply-To: <736894.1298909344094.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <736894.1298909344094.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: (Sorry, posted this to wrong thread initially.) ** *Poetry that brings us together* compared to *that which takes us further into ourselves*. Interesting distinction. What about the vibrant place the distinction disappears? Where going further in gives evidence of a deep commonality. My first question of a piece of art, or the question which drives all others ultimately, is very simple: How was it for you? When an artist shows me that in a good work, there is usually a significant level of recognition. Even with those whose artistic works or worlds or beliefs are very different than my own. But I do like the distinction. My experience of those who would sing of commonality seem to live in a series of underconsidered notions of what they are about. Granted they might intelligently base their views of the common in good political motivation or in the great work of a number of past artists like Whitman and Sandburg. My Eruo's worth. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fox.skip at gmail.com Mon Feb 28 11:22:18 2011 From: fox.skip at gmail.com (Skip Fox) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 10:22:18 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Akilah Oliver 1961 - 2011 In-Reply-To: References: <371395.46943.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: (Sorry, responded to wrong thread.) On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 10:19 AM, Skip Fox wrote: > *Poetry that brings us together* compared to* that which takes us further > into ourselves*. > > Interesting distinction. What about the vibrant place the distinction > disappears? Where going further in gives evidence of a deep commonality. > > My first question of a piece of art, or the question which drives all > others ultimately, is very simple: How was it for you? When an artist shows > me that in a good work, there is usually a significant level of recognition. > Even with those whose artistic works or worlds or beliefs are very different > than my own. > But I do like the distinction. My experience of those who would sing of > commonality seem to live in a series of underconsidered notions of what they > are about. Granted they might intelligently base their views of the common > in good political motivation or in the great work of a number of past > artists like Whitman and Sandburg. > > My Eruo's worth. > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jschickl at hotmail.com Mon Feb 28 11:54:17 2011 From: jschickl at hotmail.com (Jared Schickling) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 09:54:17 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March > 13 and 14, 2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: just thought i'd chime in as i'm on sandburg lately, and the very real possibility taht geat poems "craft lives of greater meaning and build communities of greater strength," also great poems are thsoe to make one feel small, smalelr after reading them, which can be therapeutic by way of devastation, like semantics, so sandburg, "poetry is a shuffling of boxes of illusions buckled with a strap of facts," or "see whether wisdom is just a lot of language," "he wastes time walking and telling the air, 'i am superior even to the wind,'" "little girl, be careful what you say / when you make talk with words," "apes, may i speak to you a moment," "those who saw the buffaloes are gone / and the buffaloes are gone," "the bigger the box the more it holds" reminiscent of weil's thinking intelligence like prison "poetry is a search for syllables to shoot at the barriers of the unknown and the unknowable" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Mon Feb 28 12:15:57 2011 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 10:15:57 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: And we shall have little teacups of tequila. Or Fanta for the tipplers. - Jim On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 9:15 AM, Crisman Cooley wrote: > I propose a New-Poetry party. All of us will travel to San Miguel de > Allende -- Jim C. & Hal will host. In the daytime, we'll go to Las Grutas de > Escondido & soak in warm water pools. At night, we'll go to Berlin's. We can > continue the discussion and have some fun that is funny, to quote a great > poet, the Cat in the Hat. > > > >> Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 07:39:37 -0800 (PST) >> From: amy king >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March >> 13 and 14, 2011 >> >> Yeah, you wouldn't want to come together with other poets and interrogate >> the >> social fabric -- you *never* do that. And searching for a common language >> within a community? Like finding out what makes a poem worthwhile and >> stuff >> like that? Yeah, right: never. >> >> >> >> Or did she just describe what you do here on New Poetry too "froofy >> ladylike" >> for you? Oh pardon, you only do those things in the name of poetry. My >> bad. >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Sol Literary Magazine: http://solliterarymagazine.com/ The Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From tad at opus40.org Mon Feb 28 12:32:43 2011 From: tad at opus40.org (Tad Richards) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 12:32:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March 13 and 14, 2011 In-Reply-To: <4AAF82FB-DAD2-445F-A233-2718A19A1F01@ripon.edu> References: <10480206.1298859093688.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <4AAF82FB-DAD2-445F-A233-2718A19A1F01@ripon.edu> Message-ID: Every definition is useful insofar as you can use it, after which it ceases to be useful except perhaps as a springboard to further definition. And you can quote me. On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 10:23 AM, Graham, David wrote: > On Feb 28, 2011, at 8:44 AM, "Tad Richards" wrote: > > In the AWP panel I did with David Graham a few years ago, I made pretty > much the opposite point -- that song is communal, and designed to bring > people together, while poetry is mostly designed to take us deeper into > ourselves. > > ???????????????????? > > What about spoken word and slam poetry, then? Or for that matter, any open > mic night at your local bar or school. Communal by definition. > > Not that performance in its many forms (including poetry and music) can't > also take us deeper into ourselves while remaining a communal experience. > > =================== > David Graham > Grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > ==================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Feb 28 12:34:47 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 12:34:47 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March Message-ID: <23705671.1298914487945.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fox.skip at gmail.com Mon Feb 28 13:10:52 2011 From: fox.skip at gmail.com (Skip Fox) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 12:10:52 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March > 13 and 14, 2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: *The People, Yes.* As though it was a question. On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 10:54 AM, Jared Schickling wrote: > just thought i'd chime in as i'm on sandburg lately, and the very real > possibility taht geat poems "craft lives of greater meaning and build > communities of greater strength," also great poems are thsoe to make one > feel small, smalelr after reading them, which can be therapeutic by way of > devastation, like semantics, so sandburg, "poetry is a shuffling of boxes of > illusions buckled with a strap of facts," or "see whether wisdom is just a > lot of language," "he wastes time walking and telling the air, 'i am > superior even to the wind,'" "little girl, be careful what you say / when > you make talk with words," "apes, may i speak to you a moment," "those who > saw the buffaloes are gone / and the buffaloes are gone," "the bigger the > box the more it holds" reminiscent of weil's thinking intelligence like > prison "poetry is a search for syllables to shoot at the barriers of the > unknown and the unknowable" > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Feb 28 13:24:08 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 19:24:08 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March > 13 and 14, 2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I like these thoughts. On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 7:10 PM, Skip Fox wrote: > *The People, Yes.* As though it was a question. > > On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 10:54 AM, Jared Schickling wrote: > >> just thought i'd chime in as i'm on sandburg lately, and the very real >> possibility taht geat poems "craft lives of greater meaning and build >> communities of greater strength," also great poems are thsoe to make one >> feel small, smalelr after reading them, which can be therapeutic by way of >> devastation, like semantics, so sandburg, "poetry is a shuffling of boxes of >> illusions buckled with a strap of facts," or "see whether wisdom is just a >> lot of language," "he wastes time walking and telling the air, 'i am >> superior even to the wind,'" "little girl, be careful what you say / when >> you make talk with words," "apes, may i speak to you a moment," "those who >> saw the buffaloes are gone / and the buffaloes are gone," "the bigger the >> box the more it holds" reminiscent of weil's thinking intelligence like >> prison "poetry is a search for syllables to shoot at the barriers of the >> unknown and the unknowable" >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Feb 28 13:32:13 2011 From: junction at earthlink.net (junction at earthlink.net) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 13:32:13 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March > 13 and 14, 2011 Message-ID: <5715213.1298917933578.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Feb 28 13:55:38 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 19:55:38 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: CFP: Inaugural Conference of the European Beat Studies Network In-Reply-To: <10C6AC4AD024434DB3DAD70929315EB9@joeladb72f44a8> References: <10C6AC4AD024434DB3DAD70929315EB9@joeladb72f44a8> Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Joel Weishaus Date: Wed, Feb 23, 2011 at 6:02 PM Subject: CFP: Inaugural Conference of the European Beat Studies Network To: POETICS at listserv.buffalo.edu Papers are invited for the Inaugural Conference of the European Beat Studies Network (EBSN), which will take place at the Roosevelt Study Center in Middelburg (The Netherlands) on 5-7 September, 2012. We are open to submissions of both long and short papers, panels, roundtables, dialogues and performances on any aspect of the Beat Generation. Suggested topics may include but are not limited to: * Beat Generation writers in Europe * European influences on the Beat Generation * Beat writing and European cities * The Beats and European philosophy * The Beats? influence on European authors * The Beat Generation and the European avant-garde * The Beats and transnationalism * The Beats and transatlantic connections * New editions of Beat work * Beat books as artefacts * The Beats? influence on popular culture * Beat writing and politics * The Beats and travel * Beat attitudes towards poverty * Connections with Bohemia * Beat lifestyle and excess * Representations of nature * Mysticism, religion and spirituality * Beat writing and gender Please send abstracts of 250 words (no attachments) and a short bio to Chad Weidner at c.weidner at roac.nl by November 1, 2011. Inquiries can be addressed to Chad Weidner (c.weidner at roac.nl), Oliver Harris (oliverharris at mac.com) or to Polina Mackay (p.mackay at cytanet.com.cy). Conference Organising Committee: Chad Weidner (Events Coordinator) Oliver Harris (EBSN President) Polina Mackay (EBSN Secretary) - Greetings, Chad Weidner English, Theatre and Media Studies Roosevelt Academy - Utrecht University Lange Noordstraat 1 NL-4331 CB Middelburg The Netherlands -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 28 13:59:00 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 13:59:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March 13 and14, 2011 In-Reply-To: <4AAF82FB-DAD2-445F-A233-2718A19A1F01@ripon.edu> References: <10480206.1298859093688.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <4AAF82FB-DAD2-445F-A233-2718A19A1F01@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4D6BF074.1010103@nut-n-but.net> On 2/28/2011 10:23 AM, Graham, David wrote: > On Feb 28, 2011, at 8:44 AM, "Tad Richards" > wrote: > >> In the AWP panel I did with David Graham a few years ago, I made >> pretty much the opposite point -- that song is communal, and designed >> to bring people together, while poetry is mostly designed to take us >> deeper into ourselves. > ???????????????????? Seems to me all the arts do both to such an extent as to make doing either definitionally unuseful. Except, of course, specific kinds of art that people do together, usually at churches, like singing or chanting or praying together. Still, any artwork, it seems to me, invites us to feel our way to some kind of oneness., the most obvious example being an American flag. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 28 14:25:28 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 14:25:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Way of Considering Poetry In-Reply-To: <298A3D75-39B8-4D18-A8CB-6A837E112392@ripon.edu> References: <4D6AA0CA.6070401@louisiana.edu> <4D6AFC11.2020104@nut-n-but.net> <27FD6D20-9E44-4270-AFB4-08B5759767E7@ripon.edu><4D6B8B15.2090602@nut-n-but.net> <4D6B9C86.9020507@nut-n-but.net><4D6BA169.6030908@nut-n-but.net> <298A3D75-39B8-4D18-A8CB-6A837E112392@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4D6BF6A8.9020105@nut-n-but.net> >> Poetry is personal outlook on existence plus choice of subject matter plus choice of words plus choice and use of techniques. Have I left anything out? >> On 2/28/2011 8:26 AM, Graham, David wrote: > You forgot the love.... > Surely that would be included in "personal outlook?" It, or "engagement" would be part of the definition of any human activity, I would also think. Note: I'm trying to be as basic as possible, so can hardly avoid seeming simplistic. And I really want to know if I've left anything out as I seem to have been leaving the first out lately when opining on poetry. Note #2: as an engagent of poetry, I think I'd say, "Poetry is personal outlook on existence plus choice of subject matter plus choice of words plus choice and use of techniques, in order of importance." I'm curious what order others would put them in. I would be surprised if many, perhaps most, at New-Poetry would not reverse my order. But I'm sure few would want to say, poets being too shy, it seems to me. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 28 14:46:30 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 14:46:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March 13 and14, 2011 In-Reply-To: <424546.29458.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <10480206.1298859093688.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <424546.29458.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D6BFB95.80707@nut-n-but.net> On 2/28/2011 10:39 AM, amy king wrote: > Yeah, you wouldn't want to come together with other poets and interrogate the > social fabric -- you *never* do that. And searching for a common language > within a community? Like finding out what makes a poem worthwhile and stuff > like that? Yeah, right: never. > > > > Or did she just describe what you do here on New Poetry too "froofy ladylike" I find it interesting how many people here tend to have binary position that require them to find me wholly against anything that I express less than full accordance with. Or did she just describe what you do here on New Poetry too "froofy ladylike" You must have missed one of my many posts indicating that sticks and stone can never hurt me. Although gosh, sneers about the size of my you-know-what and suggestions that I fear being considered less than wholly masculine sure do come close. Now for a supercilious reading lesson, Amy. I suggest you read the following: > "Poetry has the power to bring us together, help us find a > language of connection and unity, and through that discovery, craft > lives of greater meaning and build communities of greater strength," > Caryn Mirriam-Goldberg, poet laureate of Kansas, and organizer of a > national event bringing together poets laureate from throughout the > U.S. "In our convergence, we'll be looking and speaking about what > poetry has to say about our social fabric, spiritual paths, and > healing potential for ourselves and our culture." . That pretty much sums up what poetry is not for me. Note that here a description of what poetry is (in part, I'm sure). Note that I say what poetry is not, /for me/. /Pretty much/, which keeps my statement from being absolutist. I strongly tend not to go to poetry or compose poetry for the reasons above. What I may say in discussions here that suggest I'm concerned as a commentator on poetry rather than as a poet or engagent of poetry is irrelevant. Even then, it seems to me, I doubt it often has much to do with "our social fabric, spiritual paths, and healing poetential for ourselves and our culture." Poetry, for me, is far more than anything else a means of trying to give people pleasure. If it can do any of the things above, fine, but I don't see it as an instrument of social-betterment. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 28 15:01:23 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 15:01:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March 13and 14, 2011 In-Reply-To: <736894.1298909344094.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <736894.1298909344094.JavaMail.root@mswamui-bichon.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4D6BFF13.9020404@nut-n-but.net> On 2/28/2011 11:09 AM, junction at earthlink.net wrote: > I'm not sure where the animus is coming from, Amy. Mirriam-Goldberg isn't writing as a woman, or even as a poet, but as a bureaucrat of poetry, and a bunch of other male and female poetry bureaucrats (some of whom may even write good poetry when they're not fulfilling their bureaucratic functions)are tacitly agreeing by attending. Certainly the same sentiments have come out of the mouths of poets of all genders. Presumably they're not paying for their own transportation. > > At issue is an attempt to propose the relevance of poetry in a society in which relevance is weighed by the pound. Its thrust is for a poetry that acts to build community. A two-edged sword, and I use the military metaphor an purose--imagine a gathering of poets or cultural officials who saw themselves in the service of building consensus for war or genocide. Not, unfortunately, unheard-of. > > In our current situation, in which poetry has been bureaucratized, or at least the teaching and a lot of the publication of it, poetry has paradoxically become a more anarchic place than ever. We have laureates, but it's difficult to even imagine a national poet. > > The comments you criticize come from, broadly speaking, an aestheticist perspective. I don't entirely share it, but I doubt that it's inherently gendered. > > Best, > > Mark . Well-put, Mark. When I read stuff like what I was giving my opinion of, I had Bernard Shaw in mind as its personification--not an artist, his wife said, but a social-betterer. And he was one of my very first literary heroes and still is. Another hero of mine is the direct source of my aestheticism, Pater's pupil, Oscar Wilde (unless Keats preceded him), and the one I always think of when this question arises. Male, yes, but shouldn't I get /some/ credit for following the lead of a you-know-what? --Froofy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 28 14:54:20 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 14:54:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Way of Considering Poetry In-Reply-To: References: <4D6AA0CA.6070401@louisiana.edu><27FD6D20-9E44-4270-AFB4-08B5759767E7@ripon.edu><4D6B8B15.2090602@nut-n-but.net> <4D6B9C86.9020507@nut-n-but.net><4D6BA169.6030908@nut-n-but.net><655940.90288.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D6BFD6C.6080709@nut-n-but.net> On 2/28/2011 11:05 AM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Right. Seems Bob's left everything out. > > "What does a poet need an unlisted > number for?" > --George Costanza > > Hal > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > http://sites.google.com/site/vidalocabooks/home > > /Mainly Black > , > //Obras P?blicas > ; > //The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye and Other Sonnets > ;/ > /Organ Harvest with Entrance of Clones > ; > //Tango Bouquet > ; > //Theory of Harmony > ; > / > /Rapsodie espagnole > ; > //Guide to the Tokyo Subway > ; > //The Sonnet Project > ; > / > /G(e)nome ; > //Winter Journey ; > ////Eclipse ; ////The > Dance of the Red Swan ;/ > /Transparencies & Projections > / > > > > > On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 9:47 AM, amy king > wrote: > > Wow. And I thought being on an Assessment Committee at school > would wound my > relationship to creativity. Two plus four equals the end of poesy. > > > "Poetry is the synthesis between hyacinths and biscuits." --Carl > Sandburg > Wow, can't believe ol' Carl ever wrote anything that perspicacious. I'm serious. A variation on Horace. Which I don't agree with, being an art for art's sake froof, but can admire, anyway. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 28 15:03:18 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 15:03:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D6BFF86.8050006@nut-n-but.net> On 2/28/2011 11:15 AM, Crisman Cooley wrote: > I propose a New-Poetry party. All of us will travel to San Miguel de > Allende -- Jim C. & Hal will host. In the daytime, we'll go to Las > Grutas de Escondido & soak in warm water pools. At night, we'll go to > Berlin's. We can continue the discussion and have some fun that is > funny, to quote a great poet, the Cat in the Hat. . Yeeks, I'd hate to see the maps Hal would give us. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 28 15:05:09 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 15:05:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A Way of Considering Poetry In-Reply-To: References: <4D6AA0CA.6070401@louisiana.edu><27FD6D20-9E44-4270-AFB4-08B5759767E7@ripon.edu><4D6B8B15.2090602@nut-n-but.net> <4D6B9C86.9020507@nut-n-but.net><4D6BA169.6030908@nut-n-but.net><655940.90288.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D6BFFF5.10000@nut-n-but.net> On 2/28/2011 11:21 AM, Connie Voisine wrote: > btw--how are you assessing poetry in your committee? i mean, how? > > c . Nah--she sends it to me for assessment. I wasn't supposed to tell anyone this, but she'd made me mad. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 28 15:07:52 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 15:07:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March > 13and 14, 2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D6C0098.7000905@nut-n-but.net> On 2/28/2011 11:54 AM, Jared Schickling wrote: > just thought i'd chime in as i'm on sandburg lately, and the very real > possibility taht geat poems "craft lives of greater meaning and build > communities of greater strength," also great poems are thsoe to make > one feel small, smalelr after reading them, which can be therapeutic > by way of devastation, like semantics, so sandburg, "poetry is a > shuffling of boxes of illusions buckled with a strap of facts," or > "see whether wisdom is just a lot of language," "he wastes time > walking and telling the air, 'i am superior even to the wind,'" > "little girl, be careful what you say / when you make talk with > words," "apes, may i speak to you a moment," "those who saw the > buffaloes are gone / and the buffaloes are gone," "the bigger the box > the more it holds" reminiscent of weil's thinking intelligence like > prison "poetry is a search for syllables to shoot at the barriers of > the unknown and the unknowable" > > Hmmm, more evidence that I under-rate Carl. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 28 15:10:02 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 15:10:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March > 13and 14, 2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4D6C011A.80208@nut-n-but.net> On 2/28/2011 1:24 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > I like these thoughts (of Sandburg's). Oops, we've agreed again, Anny. Dang. --Bob From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Feb 28 15:15:10 2011 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 21:15:10 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March 13 and14, 2011 In-Reply-To: <4D6BFB95.80707@nut-n-but.net> References: <10480206.1298859093688.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <424546.29458.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4D6BFB95.80707@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Oh Amy, Bob is our scapegoat (who scrumply scrapes groadling great). Never believe what he writes, or thinks, or eats, or talks, that is our Bob. Just about. On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 8:46 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > On 2/28/2011 10:39 AM, amy king wrote: > > Yeah, you wouldn't want to come together with other poets and interrogate the > social fabric -- you *never* do that. And searching for a common language > within a community? Like finding out what makes a poem worthwhile and stuff > like that? Yeah, right: never. > > > > Or did she just describe what you do here on New Poetry too "froofy ladylike" > > I find it interesting how many people here tend to have binary position > that require them to find me wholly against anything that I express less > than full accordance with. > > Or did she just describe what you do here on New Poetry too "froofy ladylike" > > You must have missed one of my many posts indicating that sticks and stone > can never hurt me. Although gosh, sneers about the size of my you-know-what > and suggestions that I fear being considered less than wholly masculine sure > do come close. > > Now for a supercilious reading lesson, Amy. I suggest you read the > following: > > > "Poetry has the power to bring us together, help us find a > language of connection and unity, and through that discovery, craft > lives of greater meaning and build communities of greater strength," > Caryn Mirriam-Goldberg, poet laureate of Kansas, and organizer of a > national event bringing together poets laureate from throughout the > U.S. "In our convergence, we'll be looking and speaking about what > poetry has to say about our social fabric, spiritual paths, and > healing potential for ourselves and our culture." > > . > That pretty much sums up what poetry is not for me. > > Note that here a description of what poetry is (in part, I'm sure). Note > that I say what poetry is not, *for me*. *Pretty much*, which keeps my > statement from being absolutist. I strongly tend not to go to poetry or > compose poetry for the reasons above. What I may say in discussions here > that suggest I'm concerned as a commentator on poetry rather than as a poet > or engagent of poetry is irrelevant. Even then, it seems to me, I doubt it > often has much to do with "our social fabric, spiritual paths, and healing > poetential for ourselves and our culture." Poetry, for me, is far more than > anything else a means of trying to give people pleasure. If it can do any > of the things above, fine, but I don't see it as an instrument of > social-betterment. > > --Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 28 15:46:37 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 15:46:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March 13and14, 2011 In-Reply-To: References: <10480206.1298859093688.JavaMail.root@elwamui-cypress.atl.sa.earthlink.net><424546.29458.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.c om><4D6BFB95.80707@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4D6C09AD.5040102@nut-n-but.net> On 2/28/2011 3:15 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Oh Amy, > > Bob is our scapegoat (who scrumply scrapes groadling great). Never > believe what he writes, or thinks, or eats, or talks, > that is our Bob. > Just about. . Whew, the "just about" saved you from a real pummeling, Anny. I would say I believe everything I write at the time I write it more than I don't, BUT /don't/ expect anyone to take it seriously. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 28 16:34:48 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 16:34:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Akilah Oliver 1961 - 2011 In-Reply-To: References: <371395.46943.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4D6C14F8.4040105@nut-n-but.net> On 2/28/2011 11:22 AM, Skip Fox wrote: > (Sorry, responded to wrong thread.) > > On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 10:19 AM, Skip Fox > wrote: > > *Poetry that brings us together* compared to*that which takes us > further into ourselves*. > Interesting distinction. What about the vibrant place the > distinction disappears? Where going further in gives evidence of a > deep commonality. > . Absolutely. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From fox.skip at gmail.com Mon Feb 28 17:19:54 2011 From: fox.skip at gmail.com (Skip Fox) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 16:19:54 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Akilah Oliver 1961 - 2011 In-Reply-To: <4D6C14F8.4040105@nut-n-but.net> References: <371395.46943.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <4D6C14F8.4040105@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: I wrote something Bob agreed with? Better get back on my meds. On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 3:34 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > On 2/28/2011 11:22 AM, Skip Fox wrote: > > (Sorry, responded to wrong thread.) > > On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 10:19 AM, Skip Fox wrote: > >> *Poetry that brings us together* compared to* that which takes us further >> into ourselves*. >> >> Interesting distinction. What about the vibrant place the distinction >> disappears? Where going further in gives evidence of a deep commonality. >> > . > Absolutely. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 28 17:50:17 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 17:50:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Agreements In-Reply-To: References: <371395.46943.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><4D6C14F8.4040105@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4D6C26A9.4020305@nut-n-but.net> On 2/28/2011 5:19 PM, Skip Fox wrote: > I wrote something Bob agreed with? Better get back on my meds. . Aah, I probably misunderstood you, Skip --Bob From jforjames at aol.com Mon Feb 28 18:46:05 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 18:46:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March > 13 and 14, 2011 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CDA5B8CCDCF020-151C-4842@webmail-d037.sysops.aol.com> Sandburg -----Original Message----- From: Skip Fox To: NewPoetry List Sent: Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:10 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March > 13 and 14, 2011 The People, Yes. As though it was a question. On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 10:54 AM, Jared Schickling wrote: just thought i'd chime in as i'm on sandburg lately, and the very real possibility taht geat poems "craft lives of greater meaning and build communities of greater strength," also great poems are thsoe to make one feel small, smalelr after reading them, which can be therapeutic by way of devastation, like semantics, so sandburg, "poetry is a shuffling of boxes of illusions buckled with a strap of facts," or "see whether wisdom is just a lot of language," "he wastes time walking and telling the air, 'i am superior even to the wind,'" "little girl, be careful what you say / when you make talk with words," "apes, may i speak to you a moment," "those who saw the buffaloes are gone / and the buffaloes are gone," "the bigger the box the more it holds" reminiscent of weil's thinking intelligence like prison "poetry is a search for syllables to shoot at the barriers of the unknown and the unknowable" _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Mon Feb 28 18:54:42 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 18:54:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March > 13 and 14, 2011 In-Reply-To: <8CDA5B988328B34-151C-4988@webmail-d037.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CDA5B8CCDCF020-151C-4842@webmail-d037.sysops.aol.com> <8CDA5B988328B34-151C-4988@webmail-d037.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CDA5BA00AF6474-151C-4A71@webmail-d037.sysops.aol.com> I like the surname standing there alone, but really I was going to say... Sandburg was the champion of Whitman when 'modernists' were holding him at arm's length. (See the Pound poem posted here recently). Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: jforjames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Mon, Feb 28, 2011 6:46 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March > 13 and 14, 2011 Sandburg -----Original Message----- From: Skip Fox To: NewPoetry List Sent: Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:10 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] 20 Poets Laureate in Lawrence Kansas March > 13 and 14, 2011 The People, Yes. As though it was a question. On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 10:54 AM, Jared Schickling wrote: just thought i'd chime in as i'm on sandburg lately, and the very real possibility taht geat poems "craft lives of greater meaning and build communities of greater strength," also great poems are thsoe to make one feel small, smalelr after reading them, which can be therapeutic by way of devastation, like semantics, so sandburg, "poetry is a shuffling of boxes of illusions buckled with a strap of facts," or "see whether wisdom is just a lot of language," "he wastes time walking and telling the air, 'i am superior even to the wind,'" "little girl, be careful what you say / when you make talk with words," "apes, may i speak to you a moment," "those who saw the buffaloes are gone / and the buffaloes are gone," "the bigger the box the more it holds" reminiscent of weil's thinking intelligence like prison "poetry is a search for syllables to shoot at the barriers of the unknown and the unknowable" _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Mon Feb 28 20:41:22 2011 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 20:41:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wilbur turns 90 Message-ID: <8CDA5C8E7C852DF-151C-5E91@webmail-d037.sysops.aol.com> http://news.google.com/news/search?aq=f&pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=poet By RICHARD B. WOODWARD Richard Wilbur turns 90 on Tuesday, but it's unlikely that many Americans will stop to pay tribute to our finest living poet. Despite having earned almost every literary award this country has to offer, including a pair of Pulitzers and Bollingens, as well as the title of U.S. Poet Laureate in 1987-88, he has never enjoyed a rapt general following. Neither his highly wrought verse nor his reserved public manner are apt to elicit birthday visits from TV news crews or party invitations to the White House. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Feb 28 21:39:01 2011 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 21:39:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wilbur turns 90 In-Reply-To: <8CDA5C8E7C852DF-151C-5E91@webmail-d037.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CDA5C8E7C852DF-151C-5E91@webmail-d037.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4D6C5C45.3000504@nut-n-but.net> On 2/28/2011 8:41 PM, jforjames at aol.com wrote: > http://news.google.com/news/search?aq=f&pz=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=poet > By RICHARD B. WOODWARD > Richard Wilbur turns 90 on Tuesday, but it's unlikely that many > Americans will stop to pay tribute to our finest living poet. Despite > having earned almost every literary award this country has to offer, > including a pair of Pulitzers and Bollingens, as well as the title of > U.S. Poet Laureate in 1987-88, he has never enjoyed a rapt general > following. Neither his highly wrought verse nor his reserved public > manner are apt to elicit birthday visits from TV news crews or party > invitations to the White House. > Is there some kind of law of journalism that bars one from saying "one of the best" instead of "the best?" I've always said good things about Wilbur and he was one of the few living mainstream poets (maybe the only one) I mentioned in my /Of Manywhere-at-Once/, but I have to say that I hope he isn't our finest living poet. Because Woodward forced me to. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Feb 28 22:16:09 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 22:16:09 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Wilbur turns 90 Message-ID: <1ba88.34b71b84.3a9dbef9@cs.com> In a message dated 2/28/2011 8:40:12 PM Central Standard Time, bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net writes: > Is there some kind of law of journalism that bars one from saying "one of > the best" instead of "the best?" I've always said good things about > Wilbur and he was one of the few living mainstream poets (maybe the only one) I > mentioned in my Of Manywhere-at-Once, but I have to say that I hope he > isn't our finest living poet. Because Woodward forced me to. > > --Bob > I'd say so, and to hell with Woodward. Sam -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.weinstock at gmail.com Mon Feb 28 22:22:17 2011 From: david.weinstock at gmail.com (David Weinstock) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 22:22:17 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wilbur turns 90 In-Reply-To: <1ba88.34b71b84.3a9dbef9@cs.com> References: <1ba88.34b71b84.3a9dbef9@cs.com> Message-ID: I took Wilbur's Verse Writing class at Wesleyan in fall term 1973. He was a great teacher, and marked up poems with calligraphic italic handwriting. Unfortunately, I have lost those pages. From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Feb 28 22:41:34 2011 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 22:41:34 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Wilbur turns 90 Message-ID: <51ee5.3b9943bd.3a9dc4ee@cs.com> In a message dated 2/28/2011 9:23:05 PM Central Standard Time, david.weinstock at gmail.com writes: > I took Wilbur's Verse Writing class at Wesleyan in fall term 1973. He > was a great teacher, and marked up poems with calligraphic italic > handwriting. Unfortunately, I have lost those pages. A great, kind man and teacher--beyond his poetry (which is pretty far beyond indeed). I have been corresponding with him for 40+ years, since my undergraduate days. He has always answered his mail, giving encouragement when there was not a lot to encourage. God bless him. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: