From cervantes.james at gmail.com Mon Mar 1 10:01:46 2010 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 08:01:46 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Spring 2010 issue of The Salt River Review Message-ID: <648208b61003010701r340ac358if828775ba255c515@mail.gmail.com> The Spring 2010 issue of The Salt River Review is online: Poetry by Avik Chanda, Johannes Beilharz , J.A. Hawley, Olvido Garc?a Vald?s, translated by Catherine Hammond, Changming Yuan, Larry Goodell, Wendy Taylor Carlisle. Fiction by Marja Hagborg, Terence Kuch, J.Kaval, Jill Stegman, Cassandra Passarelli, Rochelle Cashdan. Belles Lettres: Wherein prose poems, nonfiction, essays, and other writings are found: Corey Mesler, J.A. Hawley, Pamela Stewart. At: http://www.poetserv.org A new addition to the site is an Author Index (in-progress) -- Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Mon Mar 1 10:07:03 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 10:07:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] WorldPo: New documentary on Nobel laureate Szymborska In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b1002281927v5d5e9f79t5014c2e2ab171f32@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CC86AED118574A-47DC-1A2DC@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b1002281927v5d5e9f79t5014c2e2ab171f32@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CC8767FB518ABF-4AC-A3B2@webmail-m028.sysops.aol.com> Judy, I don't know. I imagine after it has its release and plays at theatres and colleges and such, they'll put it up on the web somewhere for viewing or allow downloads of it. Jim F -----Original Message----- From: Judy Prince To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Sun, Feb 28, 2010 10:27 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] WorldPo: New documentary on Nobel laureate Szymborska James, this is wonderful---but how/where can we see the documentary? Best, Judy On 28 February 2010 12:01, wrote: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jS5gjNs6R-8yD12iTBeBGf4ypUawD9E57P5G0 New documentary on Nobel laureate Szymborska WARSAW, Poland ? A rare documentary about Nobel Prize winning poet Wislawa Szymborska portrays a lively yet distinguished woman who savors the world's contrasts, from 17th-century Dutch painting to boxing. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bircumplus at yahoo.co.uk Mon Mar 1 11:36:37 2010 From: bircumplus at yahoo.co.uk (David Bircumshaw) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 16:36:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu> <8CC86B9EC8F3F94-47DC-1B178@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <648208b61002281047w262b5ee1p3f0c44e8213eccb@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71002281054g9f84fcbo2b3b8d91e2bc815d@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71002281133ue494a5au214bda26599ca09f@mail.gmail.com> <8CC86E79962E54D-47DC-1EF93@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <8CC86F8DE4DCF70-47DC-20A94@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <8CC86FA6F5A410B-47DC-20CDD@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> It's been interesting watching the river flow on this and?related topics here lately. There are certainly ominous signs of something similar beginning in the UK and what seems to come across is that "being a recognised poet" is subtly linked with a kind of certificate of middleclassdom. Even though its bearers would loudly deny the?category. I can hardly begin to describe the drabness of the poetry they are producing: it makes me want to cry. There is a kind of army of the tin-eared and tedious emerging from the swamp, particularly at locations familiar to Robin such as De Montfort University. And they want to own, to control everything. Any independent life within the poetry scene is anathema to them, it disturbs their sense of their own class status. I've been closely involved with?a workshop similar to the one Roger described for 19 years, yet I am almost?physically being forced out by such people. One of the curiosities of the situation is that they seem to find allies in the performance poetry scene - I don't know if that happens in the US or whether it is that here matters are more purely that of networks of class closing in the face of recession, because the web of mediocrity?gathers in the middle-class amateur poet happily too, as long as they're amenable. But it's no genteel suffocation: these characters play dirty - in the first post after Christmas I had a letter informing me of my 'resignation' from a group I had been involved with, on my birthday I had another letter making veiled threatd of a legal kind unless I surrendered to them some software (which consisted of a copy of a free disk given away by a pc magazine) which they considered their 'intellectual property'. They are small, talentless, vindictive suburbanites, and are probably setting up a poetry press right now near you anytime soon, as it were. ?David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com ________________________________ From: Mark Weiss To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Mon, 1 March, 2010 2:33:12 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place It's usually a battle within lit departments, unless creative writing becomes its own departmewnt. Has a lot to do with who would get to vote on budget and hires if there were suddenly a bunch of creative writing profs with votes. In the cases I know of the dean usually steps in and weighs in on the side of creative writing, which is a real cash cow. All of this is usually clothed in questions of principle, and I'm sure many of the oarticipants believe it, but it's finally about money and power, and the prestige that brings money and power. Mark At 09:02 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: I was just thinking that at Yale one can get MFA in Painting, but not one in Poetry. Some of the strong lit programs have not formed MFA in Creative Writing programs. >Finnegan >? >? >-----Original Message----- >From: Mark Weiss >To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views >Sent: Sun, Feb 28, 2010 8:54 pm >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place > >Might get you an adjunct job, but not in CW. It's not considered a terminal degree. > >At 08:51 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: > >Does the straight MA in English carry an weight? >>Finnegan >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetryAnnouncing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it."?? John Palattella in The Nation ??????????????????????????????????????????? > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it."?? John Palattella in The Nation ???????? ???????? ???????? ???????? ???????? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AlMaginnes at aol.com Mon Mar 1 12:22:15 2010 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 12:22:15 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place Message-ID: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> All this talk of the drabness produced by poets in workshops and MFA programs is rather pointless unless the accusers are willing to name names. Who exactly is producing this bad poetry? Or maybe more to the point, whose students are producing this bad poetry? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Mon Mar 1 12:41:34 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 12:41:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> Message-ID: <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> << All this talk of the drabness produced by poets in workshops and MFA programs is rather pointless unless the accusers are willing to name names. Who exactly is producing this bad poetry? Or maybe more to the point, whose students are producing this bad poetry? >> Al has sorta a point here, and I was almost tempted to go somewhere and read some of the material. "Go forth and read some MFAers poetry -- you *know it's good for you." But the problem is finding a black swan ... or wading through masses of whatever. (Back to that *other prerenial debate on the Web and poetry, that as with the Great MFA Debate, all too often generates the usual glumly familiar partial answers.) But there's another way of approaching it. Of five poets whom you read recently, which of them were affiliated with the MFA system? Not just ones published who you're reading, but generally. (But even that's couching the question with a built in bias, as I'm sure no one is suggesting that absolutely all and every poet in any way associated with an MFA course is worthless. By sheer random chance, at the very least, some might be good. Or good *despite the MFA system?) So the last five I've been reading: Patrick Macmanus Simon Armitage Paul Blackburn nick-e melville Tom Leonard Mind you, given that Tom *did teach on an MA in Creative Writing course, maybe one of the five could be counted in. Or maybe the whole "name names" business is a misdirection. Maybe not. I'd turn the question back to Al -- name one poet produced by the MFA system who is worth reading? The problem here is partly sheer mediocrity, and like the poor, that always has been and always will be with us. Just seems to be more of it around than usual at the moment. Or maybe that's just my imagination ... Robin _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From AlMaginnes at aol.com Mon Mar 1 12:58:42 2010 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 12:58:42 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place Message-ID: <1a40b.57a663ec.38bd5a52@aol.com> One? Well, taste is subjective, as we all know, but here are a few just off the top of my head: David Wojahn Lisa Lewis Claudia Emerson Beth Ann Fennelly Bob Hicok C.D. Wright Charles Wright Donald Justice Philip Levine Larry Levis David St. John Leslie Adrienne Miller Frank X. Gaspar Christopher Buckley (the California poet, not the bad novelist) George Looney Dean Young Tony Hoagland -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Mon Mar 1 13:05:57 2010 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 10:05:57 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: this is something of a mislead, as most everyone who is publishing first or second books on bigger presses/bigger prizes has an MFA the grad program journals and presses mostly publish those with MFAs -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com From skip at louisiana.edu Mon Mar 1 13:21:53 2010 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 12:21:53 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu> My 2 bits. Actually a question. Becoming a poet out of the academy predisposed me to look askance at poetry produced in the academy. And even after I was teaching for over 20 years I felt the same way, feeling (rightly or wrongly) that the poets I liked were those who (though they may have been professors) I felt were non-academic. Frankly, I still tend to still feel that way after 28 years. (Although that may be beginning to change.) BUT when I started reading tons of contemporary fiction, I found great writing coming out of creative writing programs. Are poets in creative writing programs more career oriented (writing to one of several contemporary styles, networking, prize junkies, etc.), compared to fiction writers, or is that my distorted perspective? -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Bircumshaw Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 10:37 AM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place It's been interesting watching the river flow on this and related topics here lately. There are certainly ominous signs of something similar beginning in the UK and what seems to come across is that "being a recognised poet" is subtly linked with a kind of certificate of middleclassdom. Even though its bearers would loudly deny the category. I can hardly begin to describe the drabness of the poetry they are producing: it makes me want to cry. There is a kind of army of the tin-eared and tedious emerging from the swamp, particularly at locations familiar to Robin such as De Montfort University. And they want to own, to control everything. Any independent life within the poetry scene is anathema to them, it disturbs their sense of their own class status. I've been closely involved with a workshop similar to the one Roger described for 19 years, yet I am almost physically being forced out by such people. One of the curiosities of the situation is that they seem to find allies in the performance poetry scene - I don't know if that happens in the US or whether it is that here matters are more purely that of networks of class closing in the face of recession, because the web of mediocrity gathers in the middle-class amateur poet happily too, as long as they're amenable. But it's no genteel suffocation: these characters play dirty - in the first post after Christmas I had a letter informing me of my 'resignation' from a group I had been involved with, on my birthday I had another letter making veiled threatd of a legal kind unless I surrendered to them some software (which consisted of a copy of a free disk given away by a pc magazine) which they considered their 'intellectual property'. They are small, talentless, vindictive suburbanites, and are probably setting up a poetry press right now near you anytime soon, as it were. David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com _____ From: Mark Weiss To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Mon, 1 March, 2010 2:33:12 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place It's usually a battle within lit departments, unless creative writing becomes its own departmewnt. Has a lot to do with who would get to vote on budget and hires if there were suddenly a bunch of creative writing profs with votes. In the cases I know of the dean usually steps in and weighs in on the side of creative writing, which is a real cash cow. All of this is usually clothed in questions of principle, and I'm sure many of the oarticipants believe it, but it's finally about money and power, and the prestige that brings money and power. Mark At 09:02 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: I was just thinking that at Yale one can get MFA in Painting, but not one in Poetry. Some of the strong lit programs have not formed MFA in Creative Writing programs. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sun, Feb 28, 2010 8:54 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place Might get you an adjunct job, but not in CW. It's not considered a terminal degree. At 08:51 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: Does the straight MA in English carry an weight? Finnegan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Mar 1 13:27:23 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 13:27:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: It's really the wrong question, and the parameters you suggest, Robin, are a little off. First those parameters. Most poets a generation ago weren't MFAs , and most of those who taught in that first generation also didn't have MFAs, but they were hardly a product of the system. Blackburn also taught creative writing during the last two years of his life, and Tom, as you note, has also done so, but they're very much of the older world. The question of quality inevitably involves taste, and it would be pointless to argue that. And it's not determinable, I think, even if we all agreed in our taste, that the percentage of garbage has climbed, tho I think the percentage of published garbage probably has, as there has been an explosion of outlets, not least the web. The problem, it seems to me, is that the programs tend to produce (at least they try to) competent poets, who read (within a given program, but more broadly across categories of programs) mostly the same things. Competence implies knowing and having a way of doing things. This becomes perpetuated in future hiring--one recognizes similar competence in the applicants. What seems to be happening already is a limited number of acceptable kinds of institutional poetry of limited aesthetic ambition written largely for an audience schooled to expect those limitations. Undoubtedly some very good poetry is produced within these limitations--it certainly can be--and undoubtedly there are some who successfully rebel against the norms. That audience is almost entirely university-based. It may be a larger audience than poetry has had in the past few decades, but it's an audience of limited perspective and relatively similar experience. Now maybe I'm completely wrong about this. Maybe the largest change in the culture of poetry since it separated itself from the clergy has had and will have no effect. Maybe, but I wouldn't put money on it. Anecdotes are of course merely anecdotal. Here's a couple, from a summer at Yaddo maybe 20 years ago. The younger cohort of poets that summer were mostly new-minted Iowa MFAs. The acknowledged star of the group was a southern poet who had written a historical verse novel. Quite an achievement, tho I doubt even his mother could love it. It was published and made his reputation, got him a job and some eminence. He hasn't, to the best of my knowledge, written another verse novel (why would anyone write a verse novel?), but he has produced consistently awful verse that's consistently praised by critice raised in the same educational environment. The other is more intimate. In my world poets share poems, and expect criticism from each other. One of the other Iowans and I decided to meet for coffee and show each other work. She showed me a dreadfully boring, competent poem. I suggested a few changes. "But it's already been published!" I was really shocked. What does that have to do with anything? If the poem needs helping one helps it. Then I showed her one of mine. At the time I was writing rhythmically-syncopated poetry that demanded occasional odd linebreaks and with lines of very dissimilar length. She was genuinely distressed. "But I was taught that all the lines should be the same length!" I hope she had been on a fellowship, otherwise she was cheated. Boy, do I long for the bohemia of not very long ago. Mark At 12:41 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: ><< >All this talk of the drabness produced by poets in workshops and MFA >programs is rather pointless unless the accusers are willing to name >names. Who exactly is producing this bad poetry? Or maybe more to >the point, whose students are producing this bad poetry? > >Al has sorta a point here, and I was almost tempted to go somewhere >and read some of the material. "Go forth and read some MFAers >poetry -- you *know it's good for you." > >But the problem is finding a black swan ... or wading through masses >of whatever. (Back to that *other prerenial debate on the Web and >poetry, that as with the Great MFA Debate, all too often generates >the usual glumly familiar partial answers.) > >But there's another way of approaching it. Of five poets whom you >read recently, which of them were affiliated with the MFA >system? Not just ones published who you're reading, but >generally. (But even that's couching the question with a built in >bias, as I'm sure no one is suggesting that absolutely all and every >poet in any way associated with an MFA course is worthless. By >sheer random chance, at the very least, some might be good. Or good >*despite the MFA system?) > >So the last five I've been reading: > > Patrick Macmanus > Simon Armitage > Paul Blackburn > nick-e melville > Tom Leonard > >Mind you, given that Tom *did teach on an MA in Creative Writing >course, maybe one of the five could be counted in. > >Or maybe the whole "name names" business is a misdirection. Maybe >not. I'd turn the question back to Al -- name one poet produced by >the MFA system who is worth reading? > >The problem here is partly sheer mediocrity, and like the poor, that >always has been and always will be with us. Just seems to be more >of it around than usual at the moment. > >Or maybe that's just my imagination ... > >Robin > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Mar 1 13:33:07 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 13:33:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <1a40b.57a663ec.38bd5a52@aol.com> References: <1a40b.57a663ec.38bd5a52@aol.com> Message-ID: Justice didn't have an MFA. But it hardly matters. Taste counts, but nobody, regardless of taste, names off the top of his head only poets who disprove his point. At 12:58 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: >One? Well, taste is subjective, as we all know, but here are a few >just off the top of my head: > >David Wojahn >Lisa Lewis >Claudia Emerson >Beth Ann Fennelly >Bob Hicok >C.D. Wright >Charles Wright >Donald Justice >Philip Levine >Larry Levis >David St. John >Leslie Adrienne Miller >Frank X. Gaspar >Christopher Buckley (the California poet, not the bad novelist) >George Looney >Dean Young >Tony Hoagland > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Mar 1 13:39:08 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 13:39:08 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu> References: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: I don't know, but market forces would come into play. While more and more fiction is being published if at all by university or small presses, the prize remains the best seller list and publishers who can get a book on it. It's posible, still, for a few novelists to live by their writing. It's virtually impossible for poets. Mark Anecdotally: the older, non-MFA poets who earned their living when it became possible by teaching writing, those I know personally, at least, heaved a big sigh of relief when they retired and no longer had to do so. They always felt dishonest, because they didn't think poetry could be taught. Most were loved by their students, to whom they didn't express these opinions. At 01:21 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: >My 2 bits. Actually a question. > >Becoming a poet out of the academy predisposed me to look askance at >poetry produced in the academy. And even after I was teaching for >over 20 years I felt the same way, feeling (rightly or wrongly) that >the poets I liked were those who (though they may have been >professors) I felt were non-academic. Frankly, I still tend to still >feel that way after 28 years. (Although that may be beginning to change.) > >BUT when I started reading tons of contemporary fiction, I found >great writing coming out of creative writing programs. > >Are poets in creative writing programs more career oriented (writing >to one of several contemporary styles, networking, prize junkies, >etc.), compared to fiction writers, or is that my distorted perspective? > >-----Original Message----- >From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu >[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Bircumshaw >Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 10:37 AM >To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place > >It's been interesting watching the river flow on this and related >topics here lately. There are certainly ominous signs of something >similar beginning in the UK and what seems to come across is that >"being a recognised poet" is subtly linked with a kind of >certificate of middleclassdom. >Even though its bearers would loudly deny the category. I can hardly >begin to describe the drabness of the poetry they are producing: it >makes me want to cry. There is a kind of army of the tin-eared and >tedious emerging from the swamp, particularly at locations familiar >to Robin such as De Montfort University. >And they want to own, to control everything. Any independent life >within the poetry scene is anathema to them, it disturbs their sense >of their own class status. I've been closely involved with a >workshop similar to the one Roger described for 19 years, yet I am >almost physically being forced out by such people. >One of the curiosities of the situation is that they seem to find >allies in the performance poetry scene - I don't know if that >happens in the US or whether it is that here matters are more purely >that of networks of class closing in the face of recession, because >the web of mediocrity gathers in the middle-class amateur poet >happily too, as long as they're amenable. >But it's no genteel suffocation: these characters play dirty - in >the first post after Christmas I had a letter informing me of my >'resignation' from a group I had been involved with, on my birthday >I had another letter making veiled threatd of a legal kind unless I >surrendered to them some software (which consisted of a copy of a >free disk given away by a pc magazine) which they considered their >'intellectual property'. >They are small, talentless, vindictive suburbanites, and are >probably setting up a poetry press right now near you anytime soon, as it were. > >David Bircumshaw > >Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk >Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com > > > >From: Mark Weiss >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > >Sent: Mon, 1 March, 2010 2:33:12 >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place > >It's usually a battle within lit departments, unless creative >writing becomes its own departmewnt. Has a lot to do with who would >get to vote on budget and hires if there were suddenly a bunch of >creative writing profs with votes. In the cases I know of the dean >usually steps in and weighs in on the side of creative writing, >which is a real cash cow. > >All of this is usually clothed in questions of principle, and I'm >sure many of the oarticipants believe it, but it's finally about >money and power, and the prestige that brings money and power. > >Mark > >At 09:02 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: > >I was just thinking that at Yale one can get MFA in Painting, but >not one in Poetry. Some of the strong lit programs have not formed >MFA in Creative Writing programs. >Finnegan > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Mark Weiss >To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > >Sent: Sun, Feb 28, 2010 8:54 pm >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place > >Might get you an adjunct job, but not in CW. It's not considered a >terminal degree. > >At 08:51 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: > >Does the straight MA in English carry an weight? >Finnegan > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University >of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book >of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so >effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United >States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in >English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University >of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book >of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so >effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United >States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in >English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Mar 1 14:18:34 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 14:18:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> Message-ID: <4B8C130A.7040409@nut-n-but.net> AlMaginnes at aol.com wrote: > All this talk of the drabness produced by poets in workshops and MFA > programs is rather pointless unless the accusers are willing to name > names. Who exactly is producing this bad poetry? Or maybe more to the > point, whose students are producing this bad poetry? Wouldn't it be easier to just say who is not producing it? Hadda get in, dint I. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Mar 1 15:08:37 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 21:08:37 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com> I am terribly sorry to mess up your big sandcastle, but if you cannot teach poetry you cannot teach anything. I am with you: nobody can teach anything to anybody if the student is not willing to learn I am sure Confucius said something along the line. How can you teach music, art, poetry, tragedy, drama, comedy, how? One more question, didn't you say long ago that you were not going to say a word more on the topic? And to Robin: open up that link I sent over, and go through the many links and you will see what kind of people are involved in the many MFA programs. I would tremble if I were you all, to throw such words at hard-working scholars. And HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO ROBIN ! On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 7:39 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > I don't know, but market forces would come into play. While more and more > fiction is being published if at all by university or small presses, the > prize remains the best seller list and publishers who can get a book on it. > It's posible, still, for a few novelists to live by their writing. It's > virtually impossible for poets. > > Mark > > Anecdotally: the older, non-MFA poets who earned their living when it > became possible by teaching writing, those I know personally, at least, > heaved a big sigh of relief when they retired and no longer had to do so. > They always felt dishonest, because they didn't think poetry could be > taught. Most were loved by their students, to whom they didn't express these > opinions. > > > At 01:21 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: > > My 2 bits. Actually a question. > > Becoming a poet out of the academy predisposed me to look askance at poetry > produced in the academy. And even after I was teaching for over 20 years I > felt the same way, feeling (rightly or wrongly) that the poets I liked were > those who (though they may have been professors) I felt were non-academic. > Frankly, I still* tend* to still feel that way after 28 years. (Although > that may be beginning to change.) > > BUT when I started reading tons of contemporary fiction, I found great > writing coming out of creative writing programs. > > Are poets in creative writing programs more career oriented (writing to one > of several contemporary styles, networking, prize junkies, etc.), compared > to fiction writers, or is that my distorted perspective? > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] > *On Behalf Of *David Bircumshaw > *Sent:* Monday, March 01, 2010 10:37 AM > *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place > > It's been interesting watching the river flow on this and related topics > here lately. There are certainly ominous signs of something similar > beginning in the UK and what seems to come across is that "being a > recognised poet" is subtly linked with a kind of certificate of > middleclassdom. > Even though its bearers would loudly deny the category. I can hardly begin > to describe the drabness of the poetry they are producing: it makes me want > to cry. There is a kind of army of the tin-eared and tedious emerging from > the swamp, particularly at locations familiar to Robin such as De Montfort > University. > And they want to own, to control everything. Any independent life within > the poetry scene is anathema to them, it disturbs their sense of their own > class status. I've been closely involved with a workshop similar to the one > Roger described for 19 years, yet I am almost physically being forced out by > such people. > One of the curiosities of the situation is that they seem to find allies in > the performance poetry scene - I don't know if that happens in the US or > whether it is that here matters are more purely that of networks of class > closing in the face of recession, because the web of mediocrity gathers in > the middle-class amateur poet happily too, as long as they're amenable. > But it's no genteel suffocation: these characters play dirty - in the first > post after Christmas I had a letter informing me of my 'resignation' from a > group I had been involved with, on my birthday I had another letter making > veiled threatd of a legal kind unless I surrendered to them some software > (which consisted of a copy of a free disk given away by a pc magazine) which > they considered their 'intellectual property'. > They are small, talentless, vindictive suburbanites, and are probably > setting up a poetry press right now near you anytime soon, as it were. > > David Bircumshaw > > Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk > Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com > > > > *From:* Mark Weiss > *To:* "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > *Sent:* Mon, 1 March, 2010 2:33:12 > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place > > It's usually a battle within lit departments, unless creative writing > becomes its own departmewnt. Has a lot to do with who would get to vote on > budget and hires if there were suddenly a bunch of creative writing profs > with votes. In the cases I know of the dean usually steps in and weighs in > on the side of creative writing, which is a real cash cow. > > All of this is usually clothed in questions of principle, and I'm sure many > of the oarticipants believe it, but it's finally about money and power, and > the prestige that brings money and power. > > Mark > > At 09:02 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: > > I was just thinking that at Yale one can get MFA in Painting, but not one > in Poetry. Some of the strong lit programs have not formed MFA in Creative > Writing programs. > Finnegan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Weiss > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Sent: Sun, Feb 28, 2010 8:54 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place > > Might get you an adjunct job, but not in CW. It's not considered a terminal > degree. > > At 08:51 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: > > Does the straight MA in English carry an weight? > Finnegan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Mar 1 15:09:51 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 21:09:51 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com> References: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu> <4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003011209u4889f306n5440837a58eb04a@mail.gmail.com> let me rephrase the Confucius line, please, I am sure Confucius said something similar along the line. Thank you for your patience. On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 9:08 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > I am terribly sorry to mess up your big sandcastle, but if you cannot teach > poetry you cannot teach anything. I am with you: > nobody can teach anything to anybody > > if the student is not willing to learn > I am sure Confucius said something along the line. > > How can you teach music, art, poetry, tragedy, drama, comedy, how? > One more question, didn't you say long ago that you were not going to say a > word more on the topic? > > And to Robin: > open up that link I sent over, and go through the many links and you will > see what kind of people are involved in the many MFA programs. I would > tremble if I were you all, to throw such words at hard-working scholars. > > And HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO ROBIN ! > > > > > On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 7:39 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> I don't know, but market forces would come into play. While more and more >> fiction is being published if at all by university or small presses, the >> prize remains the best seller list and publishers who can get a book on it. >> It's posible, still, for a few novelists to live by their writing. It's >> virtually impossible for poets. >> >> Mark >> >> Anecdotally: the older, non-MFA poets who earned their living when it >> became possible by teaching writing, those I know personally, at least, >> heaved a big sigh of relief when they retired and no longer had to do so. >> They always felt dishonest, because they didn't think poetry could be >> taught. Most were loved by their students, to whom they didn't express these >> opinions. >> >> >> At 01:21 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: >> >> My 2 bits. Actually a question. >> >> Becoming a poet out of the academy predisposed me to look askance at >> poetry produced in the academy. And even after I was teaching for over 20 >> years I felt the same way, feeling (rightly or wrongly) that the poets I >> liked were those who (though they may have been professors) I felt were >> non-academic. Frankly, I still* tend* to still feel that way after 28 >> years. (Although that may be beginning to change.) >> >> BUT when I started reading tons of contemporary fiction, I found great >> writing coming out of creative writing programs. >> >> Are poets in creative writing programs more career oriented (writing to >> one of several contemporary styles, networking, prize junkies, etc.), >> compared to fiction writers, or is that my distorted perspective? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> *From:* new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] >> *On Behalf Of *David Bircumshaw >> *Sent:* Monday, March 01, 2010 10:37 AM >> *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views >> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place >> >> It's been interesting watching the river flow on this and related topics >> here lately. There are certainly ominous signs of something similar >> beginning in the UK and what seems to come across is that "being a >> recognised poet" is subtly linked with a kind of certificate of >> middleclassdom. >> Even though its bearers would loudly deny the category. I can hardly begin >> to describe the drabness of the poetry they are producing: it makes me want >> to cry. There is a kind of army of the tin-eared and tedious emerging from >> the swamp, particularly at locations familiar to Robin such as De Montfort >> University. >> And they want to own, to control everything. Any independent life within >> the poetry scene is anathema to them, it disturbs their sense of their own >> class status. I've been closely involved with a workshop similar to the one >> Roger described for 19 years, yet I am almost physically being forced out by >> such people. >> One of the curiosities of the situation is that they seem to find allies >> in the performance poetry scene - I don't know if that happens in the US or >> whether it is that here matters are more purely that of networks of class >> closing in the face of recession, because the web of mediocrity gathers in >> the middle-class amateur poet happily too, as long as they're amenable. >> But it's no genteel suffocation: these characters play dirty - in the >> first post after Christmas I had a letter informing me of my 'resignation' >> from a group I had been involved with, on my birthday I had another letter >> making veiled threatd of a legal kind unless I surrendered to them some >> software (which consisted of a copy of a free disk given away by a pc >> magazine) which they considered their 'intellectual property'. >> They are small, talentless, vindictive suburbanites, and are probably >> setting up a poetry press right now near you anytime soon, as it were. >> >> David Bircumshaw >> >> Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk >> Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com >> >> >> >> *From:* Mark Weiss >> *To:* "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" < >> new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> >> *Sent:* Mon, 1 March, 2010 2:33:12 >> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place >> >> It's usually a battle within lit departments, unless creative writing >> becomes its own departmewnt. Has a lot to do with who would get to vote on >> budget and hires if there were suddenly a bunch of creative writing profs >> with votes. In the cases I know of the dean usually steps in and weighs in >> on the side of creative writing, which is a real cash cow. >> >> All of this is usually clothed in questions of principle, and I'm sure >> many of the oarticipants believe it, but it's finally about money and power, >> and the prestige that brings money and power. >> >> Mark >> >> At 09:02 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: >> >> I was just thinking that at Yale one can get MFA in Painting, but not one >> in Poetry. Some of the strong lit programs have not formed MFA in Creative >> Writing programs. >> Finnegan >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Mark Weiss >> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views < >> new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> >> Sent: Sun, Feb 28, 2010 8:54 pm >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place >> >> Might get you an adjunct job, but not in CW. It's not considered a >> terminal degree. >> >> At 08:51 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: >> >> Does the straight MA in English carry an weight? >> Finnegan >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of >> California Press). >> http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of >> Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively >> broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also >> created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing >> else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of >> California Press). >> http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of >> Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively >> broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also >> created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing >> else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of >> California Press). >> http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of >> Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively >> broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also >> created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing >> else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Mar 1 15:17:50 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 21:17:50 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] from Poetry Daily Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003011217y49eff568l28eb022fd4709df3@mail.gmail.com> 8. Poem From Last Year Dark Matter 1 Who am I to experience a burst of star formation? I know this? after the first rush of enthusiasm any idea recedes and dims. 2 Each one is the inverse shape of what's missing. 3 One might try summing the matter up in a single Judas kiss, all bitter-sweet complicity and feigned ignorance Rae Armantrout *Versed* Wesleyan University Press Copyright ? 2009 by Rae Armantrout All rights reserved. Reproduced by *Poetry Daily* with permission. -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Mar 1 15:17:52 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 15:17:52 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71003011209u4889f306n5440837a58eb04a@mail.gmail.com > References: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu> <4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71003011209u4889f306n5440837a58eb04a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Confucius: "All poets are liars." It aint my sandcastle. I'm reporting what others have told me. I think it unreasonable to expect poets not to talk about this, especially those who've lived through the change. It's the environment in which we work. Here's a way of thinking about that change: There's always been transportation, but it used to be horses, now it's cars. A different beast entirely. We still travel, but the world changed. Best, Mark At 03:09 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: >let me rephrase the Confucius line, please, > >I am sure Confucius said something similar along the line. >Thank you for your patience. > > > >On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 9:08 PM, Anny Ballardini ><anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote: >I am terribly sorry to mess up your big >sandcastle, but if you cannot teach poetry you >cannot teach anything. I am with you: >nobody can teach anything to anybody > >if the student is not willing to learn >I am sure Confucius said something along the line. > >How can you teach music, art, poetry, tragedy, drama, comedy, how? >One more question, didn't you say long ago that >you were not going to say a word more on the topic? > >And to Robin: >open up that link I sent over, and go through >the many links and you will see what kind of >people are involved in the many MFA programs. I >would tremble if I were you all, to throw such words at hard-working scholars. > >And HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO ROBIN ! > > > > >On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 7:39 PM, Mark Weiss ><junction at earthlink.net> wrote: >I don't know, but market forces would come into >play. While more and more fiction is being >published if at all by university or small >presses, the prize remains the best seller list >and publishers who can get a book on it. It's >posible, still, for a few novelists to live by >their writing. It's virtually impossible for poets. > >Mark > >Anecdotally: the older, non-MFA poets who earned >their living when it became possible by teaching >writing, those I know personally, at least, >heaved a big sigh of relief when they retired >and no longer had to do so. They always felt >dishonest, because they didn't think poetry >could be taught. Most were loved by their >students, to whom they didn't express these opinions. > > >At 01:21 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: >>My 2 bits. Actually a question. >> >>Becoming a poet out of the academy predisposed >>me to look askance at poetry produced in the >>academy. And even after I was teaching for over >>20 years I felt the same way, feeling (rightly >>or wrongly) that the poets I liked were those >>who (though they may have been professors) I >>felt were non-academic. Frankly, I still tend >>to still feel that way after 28 years. >>(Although that may be beginning to change.) >> >>BUT when I started reading tons of contemporary >>fiction, I found great writing coming out of creative writing programs. >> >>Are poets in creative writing programs more >>career oriented (writing to one of several >>contemporary styles, networking, prize junkies, >>etc.), compared to fiction writers, or is that my distorted perspective? >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: >>new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>[ mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Bircumshaw >>Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 10:37 AM >>To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place >> >>It's been interesting watching the river flow >>on this and related topics here lately. There >>are certainly ominous signs of something >>similar beginning in the UK and what seems to >>come across is that "being a recognised poet" >>is subtly linked with a kind of certificate of middleclassdom. >>Even though its bearers would loudly deny the >>category. I can hardly begin to describe the >>drabness of the poetry they are producing: it >>makes me want to cry. There is a kind of army >>of the tin-eared and tedious emerging from the >>swamp, particularly at locations familiar to >>Robin such as De Montfort University. >>And they want to own, to control everything. >>Any independent life within the poetry scene is >>anathema to them, it disturbs their sense of >>their own class status. I've been closely >>involved with a workshop similar to the one >>Roger described for 19 years, yet I am almost >>physically being forced out by such people. >>One of the curiosities of the situation is that >>they seem to find allies in the performance >>poetry scene - I don't know if that happens in >>the US or whether it is that here matters are >>more purely that of networks of class closing >>in the face of recession, because the web of >>mediocrity gathers in the middle-class amateur >>poet happily too, as long as they're amenable. >>But it's no genteel suffocation: these >>characters play dirty - in the first post after >>Christmas I had a letter informing me of my >>'resignation' from a group I had been involved >>with, on my birthday I had another letter >>making veiled threatd of a legal kind unless I >>surrendered to them some software (which >>consisted of a copy of a free disk given away >>by a pc magazine) which they considered their 'intellectual property'. >>They are small, talentless, vindictive >>suburbanites, and are probably setting up a >>poetry press right now near you anytime soon, as it were. >> >>David Bircumshaw >> >>Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk >>Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com >> >> >From: Mark Weiss <junction at earthlink.net> >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & >Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> >Sent: Mon, 1 March, 2010 2:33:12 >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place > >It's usually a battle within lit departments, >unless creative writing becomes its own >departmewnt. Has a lot to do with who would get >to vote on budget and hires if there were >suddenly a bunch of creative writing profs with >votes. In the cases I know of the dean usually >steps in and weighs in on the side of creative >writing, which is a real cash cow. > >All of this is usually clothed in questions of >principle, and I'm sure many of the oarticipants >believe it, but it's finally about money and >power, and the prestige that brings money and power. > >Mark > >At 09:02 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: > >I was just thinking that at Yale one can get MFA >in Painting, but not one in Poetry. Some of the >strong lit programs have not formed MFA in Creative Writing programs. >Finnegan > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Mark Weiss <junction at earthlink.net> >To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >&Views <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> >Sent: Sun, Feb 28, 2010 8:54 pm >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place > >Might get you an adjunct job, but not in CW. >It's not considered a terminal degree. > >At 08:51 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: > >Does the straight MA in English carry an weight? >Finnegan > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of >Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's >Random House Book of Twentieth Century French >Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively >broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside >the United States and also created a superb >collection of foreign poems in English. There is >nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of >Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's >Random House Book of Twentieth Century French >Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively >broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside >the United States and also created a superb >collection of foreign poems in English. There is >nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of >Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's >Random House Book of Twentieth Century French >Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively >broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside >the United States and also created a superb >collection of foreign poems in English. There is >nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > >-- >Anny Ballardini >http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! >Friedrich Nietzsche > >? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >Giovenale > > > > >-- >Anny Ballardini >http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! >Friedrich Nietzsche > >? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >Giovenale > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Mon Mar 1 15:55:17 2010 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 14:55:17 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: There was a study some years back (back far enough that I can't cite an source for it) that found that of MFA graduates (don't remember if this was Iowa only or MFA programs in general) surveyed only around 20% of them were still producing writing 5 years after graduating from whatever program they were in. So it appeared that whatever career hopes they might have had were dashed sufficiently after 5 years to stop them in their tracks. Anyone remember this? Hal follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest collection -- http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > It's really the wrong question, and the parameters you suggest, Robin, are > a little off. First those parameters. Most poets a generation ago weren't > MFAs , and most of those who taught in that first generation also didn't > have MFAs, but they were hardly a product of the system. Blackburn also > taught creative writing during the last two years of his life, and Tom, as > you note, has also done so, but they're very much of the older world. > > The question of quality inevitably involves taste, and it would be > pointless to argue that. And it's not determinable, I think, even if we all > agreed in our taste, that the percentage of garbage has climbed, tho I think > the percentage of published garbage probably has, as there has been an > explosion of outlets, not least the web. The problem, it seems to me, is > that the programs tend to produce (at least they try to) competent poets, > who read (within a given program, but more broadly across categories of > programs) mostly the same things. Competence implies knowing and having a > way of doing things. This becomes perpetuated in future hiring--one > recognizes similar competence in the applicants. What seems to be happening > already is a limited number of acceptable kinds of institutional poetry of > limited aesthetic ambition written largely for an audience schooled to > expect those limitations. Undoubtedly some very good poetry is produced > within these limitations--it certainly can be--and undoubtedly there are > some who successfully rebel against the norms. That audience is almost > entirely university-based. It may be a larger audience than poetry has had > in the past few decades, but it's an audience of limited perspective and > relatively similar experience. > > Now maybe I'm completely wrong about this. Maybe the largest change in the > culture of poetry since it separated itself from the clergy has had and will > have no effect. Maybe, but I wouldn't put money on it. > > Anecdotes are of course merely anecdotal. Here's a couple, from a summer at > Yaddo maybe 20 years ago. The younger cohort of poets that summer were > mostly new-minted Iowa MFAs. The acknowledged star of the group was a > southern poet who had written a historical verse novel. Quite an > achievement, tho I doubt even his mother could love it. It was published and > made his reputation, got him a job and some eminence. He hasn't, to the best > of my knowledge, written another verse novel (why would anyone write a verse > novel?), but he has produced consistently awful verse that's consistently > praised by critice raised in the same educational environment. > > The other is more intimate. In my world poets share poems, and expect > criticism from each other. One of the other Iowans and I decided to meet for > coffee and show each other work. She showed me a dreadfully boring, > competent poem. I suggested a few changes. "But it's already been > published!" I was really shocked. What does that have to do with anything? > If the poem needs helping one helps it. Then I showed her one of mine. At > the time I was writing rhythmically-syncopated poetry that demanded > occasional odd linebreaks and with lines of very dissimilar length. She was > genuinely distressed. "But I was taught that all the lines should be the > same length!" I hope she had been on a fellowship, otherwise she was > cheated. > > Boy, do I long for the bohemia of not very long ago. > > Mark > > > At 12:41 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: > > << > All this talk of the drabness produced by poets in workshops and MFA > programs is rather pointless unless the accusers are willing to name names. > Who exactly is producing this bad poetry? Or maybe more to the point, whose > students are producing this bad poetry? > > > Al has sorta a point here, and I was almost tempted to go somewhere and > read some of the material. "Go forth and read some MFAers poetry -- you > *know it's good for you." > > But the problem is finding a black swan ... or wading through masses of > whatever. (Back to that *other prerenial debate on the Web and poetry, that > as with the Great MFA Debate, all too often generates the usual glumly > familiar partial answers.) > > But there's another way of approaching it. Of five poets whom you read > recently, which of them were affiliated with the MFA system? Not just ones > published who you're reading, but generally. (But even that's couching the > question with a built in bias, as I'm sure no one is suggesting that > absolutely all and every poet in any way associated with an MFA course is > worthless. By sheer random chance, at the very least, some might be good. > Or good *despite the MFA system?) > > So the last five I've been reading: > > Patrick Macmanus > Simon Armitage > Paul Blackburn > nick-e melville > Tom Leonard > > Mind you, given that Tom *did teach on an MA in Creative Writing course, > maybe one of the five could be counted in. > > Or maybe the whole "name names" business is a misdirection. Maybe not. > I'd turn the question back to Al -- name one poet produced by the MFA system > who is worth reading? > > The problem here is partly sheer mediocrity, and like the poor, that always > has been and always will be with us. Just seems to be more of it around > than usual at the moment. > > Or maybe that's just my imagination ... > > Robin > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From millb at aol.com Mon Mar 1 16:05:30 2010 From: millb at aol.com (Millicent) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 16:05:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com><47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <8CC879A0EE113DA-95F8-1F19@webmail-m053.sysops.aol.com> I don't but I DO know that the figure sounds about right from my own experience. Maybe fewer than 20%. Millicent Woman on a Shaky Bridge Finishing Line Press http://finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm http://www.MillicentBorgesAccardi.com Facebook/MillB http://womporeadersdirectory.wikispaces.com/WEST http://www.MillicentBorgesAccardi.com Facebook/MillB http://womporeadersdirectory.wikispaces.com/WEST -----Original Message----- From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Mon, Mar 1, 2010 12:55 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place There was a study some years back (back far enough that I can't cite an source for it) that found that of MFA graduates (don't remember if this was Iowa only or MFA programs in general) surveyed only around 20% of them were still producing writing 5 years after graduating from whatever program they were in. So it appeared that whatever career hopes they might have had were dashed sufficiently after 5 years to stop them in their tracks. Anyone remember this? Hal follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest collection -- http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: It's really the wrong question, and the parameters you suggest, Robin, are a little off. First those parameters. Most poets a generation ago weren't MFAs , and most of those who taught in that first generation also didn't have MFAs, but they were hardly a product of the system. Blackburn also taught creative writing during the last two years of his life, and Tom, as you note, has also done so, but they're very much of the older world. The question of quality inevitably involves taste, and it would be pointless to argue that. And it's not determinable, I think, even if we all agreed in our taste, that the percentage of garbage has climbed, tho I think the percentage of published garbage probably has, as there has been an explosion of outlets, not least the web. The problem, it seems to me, is that the programs tend to produce (at least they try to) competent poets, who read (within a given program, but more broadly across categories of programs) mostly the same things. Competence implies knowing and having a way of doing things. This becomes perpetuated in future hiring--one recognizes similar competence in the applicants. What seems to be happening already is a limited number of acceptable kinds of institutional poetry of limited aesthetic ambition written largely for an audience schooled to expect those limitations. Undoubtedly some very good poetry is produced within these limitations--it certainly can be--and undoubtedly there are some who successfully rebel against the norms. That audience is almost entirely university-based. It may be a larger audience than poetry has had in the past few decades, but it's an audience of limited perspective and relatively similar experience. Now maybe I'm completely wrong about this. Maybe the largest change in the culture of poetry since it separated itself from the clergy has had and will have no effect. Maybe, but I wouldn't put money on it. Anecdotes are of course merely anecdotal. Here's a couple, from a summer at Yaddo maybe 20 years ago. The younger cohort of poets that summer were mostly new-minted Iowa MFAs. The acknowledged star of the group was a southern poet who had written a historical verse novel. Quite an achievement, tho I doubt even his mother could love it. It was published and made his reputation, got him a job and some eminence. He hasn't, to the best of my knowledge, written another verse novel (why would anyone write a verse novel?), but he has produced consistently awful verse that's consistently praised by critice raised in the same educational environment. The other is more intimate. In my world poets share poems, and expect criticism from each other. One of the other Iowans and I decided to meet for coffee and show each other work. She showed me a dreadfully boring, competent poem. I suggested a few changes. "But it's already been published!" I was really shocked. What does that have to do with anything? If the poem needs helping one helps it. Then I showed her one of mine. At the time I was writing rhythmically-syncopated poetry that demanded occasional odd linebreaks and with lines of very dissimilar length. She was genuinely distressed. "But I was taught that all the lines should be the same length!" I hope she had been on a fellowship, otherwise she was cheated. Boy, do I long for the bohemia of not very long ago. Mark At 12:41 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: << All this talk of the drabness produced by poets in workshops and MFA programs is rather pointless unless the accusers are willing to name names. Who exactly is producing this bad poetry? Or maybe more to the point, whose students are producing this bad poetry? Al has sorta a point here, and I was almost tempted to go somewhere and read some of the material. "Go forth and read some MFAers poetry -- you *know it's good for you." But the problem is finding a black swan ... or wading through masses of whatever. (Back to that *other prerenial debate on the Web and poetry, that as with the Great MFA Debate, all too often generates the usual glumly familiar partial answers.) But there's another way of approaching it. Of five poets whom you read recently, which of them were affiliated with the MFA system? Not just ones published who you're reading, but generally. (But even that's couching the question with a built in bias, as I'm sure no one is suggesting that absolutely all and every poet in any way associated with an MFA course is worthless. By sheer random chance, at the very least, some might be good. Or good *despite the MFA system?) So the last five I've been reading: Patrick Macmanus Simon Armitage Paul Blackburn nick-e melville Tom Leonard Mind you, given that Tom *did teach on an MA in Creative Writing course, maybe one of the five could be counted in. Or maybe the whole "name names" business is a misdirection. Maybe not. I'd turn the question back to Al -- name one poet produced by the MFA system who is worth reading? The problem here is partly sheer mediocrity, and like the poor, that always has been and always will be with us. Just seems to be more of it around than usual at the moment. Or maybe that's just my imagination ... Robin _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Mon Mar 1 16:13:00 2010 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 14:13:00 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <8CC879A0EE113DA-95F8-1F19@webmail-m053.sysops.aol.com> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC879A0EE113DA-95F8-1F19@webmail-m053.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <648208b61003011312u110e33d0x45307cc024de870b@mail.gmail.com> Hmm, I remember the same thing as hazily as does Hal, but I wonder how one would even do such a study. For one, career-in-writing is not the same thing as continuing to write. - Jim On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Millicent wrote: > I don't but I DO know that the figure sounds about right from my own > experience. Maybe fewer than 20%. > > Millicent > > Woman on a Shaky Bridge > Finishing Line Press > http://finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm > > http://www.MillicentBorgesAccardi.com > Facebook/MillB > http://womporeadersdirectory.wikispaces.com/WEST > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Halvard Johnson > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Sent: Mon, Mar 1, 2010 12:55 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place > > There was a study some years back (back far enough that I can't cite > an source for it) that found that of MFA graduates (don't remember > if this was Iowa only or MFA programs in general) surveyed only > around 20% of them were still producing writing 5 years after > graduating from whatever program they were in. > > So it appeared that whatever career hopes they might have had were > dashed sufficiently after 5 years to stop them in their tracks. > > Anyone remember this? > > Hal > > follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest > collection -- > > http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> It's really the wrong question, and the parameters you suggest, Robin, are >> a little off. First those parameters. Most poets a generation ago weren't >> MFAs , and most of those who taught in that first generation also didn't >> have MFAs, but they were hardly a product of the system. Blackburn also >> taught creative writing during the last two years of his life, and Tom, as >> you note, has also done so, but they're very much of the older world. >> >> The question of quality inevitably involves taste, and it would be >> pointless to argue that. And it's not determinable, I think, even if we all >> agreed in our taste, that the percentage of garbage has climbed, tho I think >> the percentage of published garbage probably has, as there has been an >> explosion of outlets, not least the web. The problem, it seems to me, is >> that the programs tend to produce (at least they try to) competent poets, >> who read (within a given program, but more broadly across categories of >> programs) mostly the same things. Competence implies knowing and having a >> way of doing things. This becomes perpetuated in future hiring--one >> recognizes similar competence in the applicants. What seems to be happening >> already is a limited number of acceptable kinds of institutional poetry of >> limited aesthetic ambition written largely for an audience schooled to >> expect those limitations. Undoubtedly some very good poetry is produced >> within these limitations--it certainly can be--and undoubtedly there are >> some who successfully rebel against the norms. That audience is almost >> entirely university-based. It may be a larger audience than poetry has had >> in the past few decades, but it's an audience of limited perspective and >> relatively similar experience. >> >> Now maybe I'm completely wrong about this. Maybe the largest change in the >> culture of poetry since it separated itself from the clergy has had and will >> have no effect. Maybe, but I wouldn't put money on it. >> >> Anecdotes are of course merely anecdotal. Here's a couple, from a summer >> at Yaddo maybe 20 years ago. The younger cohort of poets that summer were >> mostly new-minted Iowa MFAs. The acknowledged star of the group was a >> southern poet who had written a historical verse novel. Quite an >> achievement, tho I doubt even his mother could love it. It was published and >> made his reputation, got him a job and some eminence. He hasn't, to the best >> of my knowledge, written another verse novel (why would anyone write a verse >> novel?), but he has produced consistently awful verse that's consistently >> praised by critice raised in the same educational environment. >> >> The other is more intimate. In my world poets share poems, and expect >> criticism from each other. One of the other Iowans and I decided to meet for >> coffee and show each other work. She showed me a dreadfully boring, >> competent poem. I suggested a few changes. "But it's already been >> published!" I was really shocked. What does that have to do with anything? >> If the poem needs helping one helps it. Then I showed her one of mine. At >> the time I was writing rhythmically-syncopated poetry that demanded >> occasional odd linebreaks and with lines of very dissimilar length. She was >> genuinely distressed. "But I was taught that all the lines should be the >> same length!" I hope she had been on a fellowship, otherwise she was >> cheated. >> >> Boy, do I long for the bohemia of not very long ago. >> >> Mark >> >> >> At 12:41 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: >> >> << >> All this talk of the drabness produced by poets in workshops and MFA >> programs is rather pointless unless the accusers are willing to name names. >> Who exactly is producing this bad poetry? Or maybe more to the point, whose >> students are producing this bad poetry? >> >> >> Al has sorta a point here, and I was almost tempted to go somewhere and >> read some of the material. "Go forth and read some MFAers poetry -- you >> *know it's good for you." >> >> But the problem is finding a black swan ... or wading through masses of >> whatever. (Back to that *other prerenial debate on the Web and poetry, that >> as with the Great MFA Debate, all too often generates the usual glumly >> familiar partial answers.) >> >> But there's another way of approaching it. Of five poets whom you read >> recently, which of them were affiliated with the MFA system? Not just ones >> published who you're reading, but generally. (But even that's couching the >> question with a built in bias, as I'm sure no one is suggesting that >> absolutely all and every poet in any way associated with an MFA course is >> worthless. By sheer random chance, at the very least, some might be good. >> Or good *despite the MFA system?) >> >> So the last five I've been reading: >> >> Patrick Macmanus >> Simon Armitage >> Paul Blackburn >> nick-e melville >> Tom Leonard >> >> Mind you, given that Tom *did teach on an MA in Creative Writing course, >> maybe one of the five could be counted in. >> >> Or maybe the whole "name names" business is a misdirection. Maybe not. >> I'd turn the question back to Al -- name one poet produced by the MFA system >> who is worth reading? >> >> The problem here is partly sheer mediocrity, and like the poor, that >> always has been and always will be with us. Just seems to be more of it >> around than usual at the moment. >> >> Or maybe that's just my imagination ... >> >> Robin >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University >> of California Press). >> http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of >> Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively >> broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also >> created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing >> else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Mon Mar 1 16:23:37 2010 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 13:23:37 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <8CC879A0EE113DA-95F8-1F19@webmail-m053.sysops.aol.com> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC879A0EE113DA-95F8-1F19@webmail-m053.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I got together for an informal "20 year" post MFA dinner. Everyone there -- and that we reported in on -- was still writing, but some had only just published a first book (took me 12 years, but some much longer) and some had changed genres/media, and some of the more commercial free lancers & journalists no longer pursued creative publication. So -- producing writing -- what does that mean? No one had had a full time tenure track teaching job, although several people who went through the same program after the faculty shakeup have such. -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com From junction at earthlink.net Mon Mar 1 16:52:11 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 16:52:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: The key here is "stopped writing." Stopped looking for jobs, stopped publishing, would be a whole nuther ballgame. This one speaks to motivation. At 03:55 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: >There was a study some years back (back far enough that I can't cite >an source for it) that found that of MFA graduates (don't remember >if this was Iowa only or MFA programs in general) surveyed only >around 20% of them were still producing writing 5 years after >graduating from whatever program they were in. > >So it appeared that whatever career hopes they might have had were >dashed sufficiently after 5 years to stop them in their tracks. > >Anyone remember this? > >Hal > >follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest >collection -- > >http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions > >Halvard Johnson >================ >halvard at gmail.com >http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > >On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Mark Weiss ><junction at earthlink.net> wrote: >It's really the wrong question, and the parameters you suggest, >Robin, are a little off. First those parameters. Most poets a >generation ago weren't MFAs , and most of those who taught in that >first generation also didn't have MFAs, but they were hardly a >product of the system. Blackburn also taught creative writing during >the last two years of his life, and Tom, as you note, has also done >so, but they're very much of the older world. > >The question of quality inevitably involves taste, and it would be >pointless to argue that. And it's not determinable, I think, even if >we all agreed in our taste, that the percentage of garbage has >climbed, tho I think the percentage of published garbage probably >has, as there has been an explosion of outlets, not least the web. >The problem, it seems to me, is that the programs tend to produce >(at least they try to) competent poets, who read (within a given >program, but more broadly across categories of programs) mostly the >same things. Competence implies knowing and having a way of doing >things. This becomes perpetuated in future hiring--one recognizes >similar competence in the applicants. What seems to be happening >already is a limited number of acceptable kinds of institutional >poetry of limited aesthetic ambition written largely for an audience >schooled to expect those limitations. Undoubtedly some very good >poetry is produced within these limitations--it certainly can >be--and undoubtedly there are some who successfully rebel against >the norms. That audience is almost entirely university-based. It may >be a larger audience than poetry has had in the past few decades, >but it's an audience of limited perspective and relatively similar experience. > >Now maybe I'm completely wrong about this. Maybe the largest change >in the culture of poetry since it separated itself from the clergy >has had and will have no effect. Maybe, but I wouldn't put money on it. > >Anecdotes are of course merely anecdotal. Here's a couple, from a >summer at Yaddo maybe 20 years ago. The younger cohort of poets that >summer were mostly new-minted Iowa MFAs. The acknowledged star of >the group was a southern poet who had written a historical verse >novel. Quite an achievement, tho I doubt even his mother could love >it. It was published and made his reputation, got him a job and some >eminence. He hasn't, to the best of my knowledge, written another >verse novel (why would anyone write a verse novel?), but he has >produced consistently awful verse that's consistently praised by >critice raised in the same educational environment. > >The other is more intimate. In my world poets share poems, and >expect criticism from each other. One of the other Iowans and I >decided to meet for coffee and show each other work. She showed me a >dreadfully boring, competent poem. I suggested a few changes. "But >it's already been published!" I was really shocked. What does that >have to do with anything? If the poem needs helping one helps it. >Then I showed her one of mine. At the time I was writing >rhythmically-syncopated poetry that demanded occasional odd >linebreaks and with lines of very dissimilar length. She was >genuinely distressed. "But I was taught that all the lines should be >the same length!" I hope she had been on a fellowship, otherwise she >was cheated. > >Boy, do I long for the bohemia of not very long ago. > >Mark > > >At 12:41 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: >><< >>All this talk of the drabness produced by poets in workshops and >>MFA programs is rather pointless unless the accusers are willing to >>name names. Who exactly is producing this bad poetry? Or maybe more >>to the point, whose students are producing this bad poetry? >> >>Al has sorta a point here, and I was almost tempted to go somewhere >>and read some of the material. "Go forth and read some MFAers >>poetry -- you *know it's good for you." >> >>But the problem is finding a black swan ... or wading through >>masses of whatever. (Back to that *other prerenial debate on the >>Web and poetry, that as with the Great MFA Debate, all too often >>generates the usual glumly familiar partial answers.) >> >>But there's another way of approaching it. Of five poets whom you >>read recently, which of them were affiliated with the MFA >>system? Not just ones published who you're reading, but >>generally. (But even that's couching the question with a built in >>bias, as I'm sure no one is suggesting that absolutely all and >>every poet in any way associated with an MFA course is >>worthless. By sheer random chance, at the very least, some might >>be good. Or good *despite the MFA system?) >> >>So the last five I've been reading: >> >> Patrick Macmanus >> Simon Armitage >> Paul Blackburn >> nick-e melville >> Tom Leonard >> >>Mind you, given that Tom *did teach on an MA in Creative Writing >>course, maybe one of the five could be counted in. >> >>Or maybe the whole "name names" business is a misdirection. Maybe >>not. I'd turn the question back to Al -- name one poet produced by >>the MFA system who is worth reading? >> >>The problem here is partly sheer mediocrity, and like the poor, >>that always has been and always will be with us. Just seems to be >>more of it around than usual at the moment. >> >>Or maybe that's just my imagination ... >> >>Robin >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University >of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book >of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so >effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United >States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in >English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Mar 1 17:21:50 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 17:21:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com><47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> Interestingly, no poet I know of who is primarily a visual poet has--to my knowledge, an MFA. A few have Ph.D.'s but the only two I know of who do have them in library science. I think a lot of language poets have them. I also notice that every post to New-Poetry or elsewhere that I've seen that announces some position at a college for a teacher of any kind of creative writing requires an MFA, if not a Ph.D. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Mar 1 17:31:34 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 17:31:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com><89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu><4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com><4b65c2d71003011209u4889f306n54408 37a58eb04a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B8C4046.1060907@nut-n-but.net> Mark Weiss wrote: > Confucius: "All poets are liars." > > It aint my sandcastle. I'm reporting what others have told me. > > I think it unreasonable to expect poets not to talk about this, > especially those who've lived through the change. It's the environment > in which we work. > > Here's a way of thinking about that change: There's always been > transportation, but it used to be horses, now it's cars. A different > beast entirely. We still travel, but the world changed. > > Best, > > Mark It does seem like more and more vocations are becoming trade gelded. Are there any left where a person is rewarded in proportion to his ability rather than in proportion to his credentials? --Bob From junction at earthlink.net Mon Mar 1 17:34:40 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 17:34:40 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <648208b61003011312u110e33d0x45307cc024de870b@mail.gmail.co m> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC879A0EE113DA-95F8-1F19@webmail-m053.sysops.aol.com> <648208b61003011312u110e33d0x45307cc024de870b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: As I remember, they asked them. At 04:13 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: >Hmm, I remember the same thing as hazily as does Hal, but I wonder >how one would even do such a study. For one, career-in-writing is >not the same thing as continuing to write. > >- Jim > >On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Millicent ><millb at aol.com> wrote: >I don't but I DO know that the figure sounds about right from my own >experience. Maybe fewer than 20%. > >Millicent > >Woman on a Shaky Bridge >Finishing Line Press >http://finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm > >http://www.MillicentBorgesAccardi.com >Facebook/MillB >http://womporeadersdirectory.wikispaces.com/WEST > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Halvard Johnson <halvard at gmail.com> >To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views ><new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> >Sent: Mon, Mar 1, 2010 12:55 pm >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place > >There was a study some years back (back far enough that I can't cite >an source for it) that found that of MFA graduates (don't remember >if this was Iowa only or MFA programs in general) surveyed only >around 20% of them were still producing writing 5 years after >graduating from whatever program they were in. > >So it appeared that whatever career hopes they might have had were >dashed sufficiently after 5 years to stop them in their tracks. > >Anyone remember this? > >Hal > >follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest >collection -- > >http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions > >Halvard Johnson >================ >halvard at gmail.com >http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > >On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Mark Weiss ><junction at earthlink.net> wrote: >It's really the wrong question, and the parameters you suggest, >Robin, are a little off. First those parameters. Most poets a >generation ago weren't MFAs , and most of those who taught in that >first generation also didn't have MFAs, but they were hardly a >product of the system. Blackburn also taught creative writing during >the last two years of his life, and Tom, as you note, has also done >so, but they're very much of the older world. > >The question of quality inevitably involves taste, and it would be >pointless to argue that. And it's not determinable, I think, even if >we all agreed in our taste, that the percentage of garbage has >climbed, tho I think the percentage of published garbage probably >has, as there has been an explosion of outlets, not least the web. >The problem, it seems to me, is that the programs tend to produce >(at least they try to) competent poets, who read (within a given >program, but more broadly across categories of programs) mostly the >same things. Competence implies knowing and having a way of doing >things. This becomes perpetuated in future hiring--one recognizes >similar competence in the applicants. What seems to be happening >already is a limited number of acceptable kinds of institutional >poetry of limited aesthetic ambition written largely for an audience >schooled to expect those limitations. Undoubtedly some very good >poetry is produced within these limitations--it certainly can >be--and undoubtedly there are some who successfully rebel against >the norms. That audience is almost entirely university-based. It may >be a larger audience than poetry has had in the past few decades, >but it's an audience of limited perspective and relatively similar experience. > >Now maybe I'm completely wrong about this. Maybe the largest change >in the culture of poetry since it separated itself from the clergy >has had and will have no effect. Maybe, but I wouldn't put money on it. > >Anecdotes are of course merely anecdotal. Here's a couple, from a >summer at Yaddo maybe 20 years ago. The younger cohort of poets that >summer were mostly new-minted Iowa MFAs. The acknowledged star of >the group was a southern poet who had written a historical verse >novel. Quite an achievement, tho I doubt even his mother could love >it. It was published and made his reputation, got him a job and some >eminence. He hasn't, to the best of my knowledge, written another >verse novel (why would anyone write a verse novel?), but he has >produced consistently awful verse that's consistently praised by >critice raised in the same educational environment. > >The other is more intimate. In my world poets share poems, and >expect criticism from each other. One of the other Iowans and I >decided to meet for coffee and show each other work. She showed me a >dreadfully boring, competent poem. I suggested a few changes. "But >it's already been published!" I was really shocked. What does that >have to do with anything? If the poem needs helping one helps it. >Then I showed her one of mine. At the time I was writing >rhythmically-syncopated poetry that demanded occasional odd >linebreaks and with lines of very dissimilar length. She was >genuinely distressed. "But I was taught that all the lines should be >the same length!" I hope she had been on a fellowship, otherwise she >was cheated. > >Boy, do I long for the bohemia of not very long ago. > >Mark > > >At 12:41 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: >><< >>All this talk of the drabness produced by poets in workshops and >>MFA programs is rather pointless unless the accusers are willing to >>name names. Who exactly is producing this bad poetry? Or maybe more >>to the point, whose students are producing this bad poetry? >> >>Al has sorta a point here, and I was almost tempted to go somewhere >>and read some of the material. "Go forth and read some MFAers >>poetry -- you *know it's good for you." >> >>But the problem is finding a black swan ... or wading through >>masses of whatever. (Back to that *other prerenial debate on the >>Web and poetry, that as with the Great MFA Debate, all too often >>generates the usual glumly familiar partial answers.) >> >>But there's another way of approaching it. Of five poets whom you >>read recently, which of them were affiliated with the MFA >>system? Not just ones published who you're reading, but >>generally. (But even that's couching the question with a built in >>bias, as I'm sure no one is suggesting that absolutely all and >>every poet in any way associated with an MFA course is >>worthless. By sheer random chance, at the very least, some might >>be good. Or good *despite the MFA system?) >> >>So the last five I've been reading: >> >> Patrick Macmanus >> Simon Armitage >> Paul Blackburn >> nick-e melville >> Tom Leonard >> >>Mind you, given that Tom *did teach on an MA in Creative Writing >>course, maybe one of the five could be counted in. >> >>Or maybe the whole "name names" business is a misdirection. Maybe >>not. I'd turn the question back to Al -- name one poet produced by >>the MFA system who is worth reading? >> >>The problem here is partly sheer mediocrity, and like the poor, >>that always has been and always will be with us. Just seems to be >>more of it around than usual at the moment. >> >>Or maybe that's just my imagination ... >> >>Robin >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University >of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book >of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so >effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United >States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in >English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > >-- > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org >http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning >http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf >http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html >http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Mon Mar 1 17:36:54 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 17:36:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com> References: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com><89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu> <4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <71A9B8920EF140D78E0EA96B01F79981@RobinLaptopPC> << And to Robin: open up that link I sent over, and go through the many links and you will see what kind of people are involved in the many MFA programs. I would tremble if I were you all, to throw such words at hard-working scholars. >> The problem with this point of Anny's, and Al's earlier list of names, is that it quite misses my point. Frankly, if all I wanted was an unsorted list of names or links, I'd go to Silliman's blog -- there are more there of both. What bothers me less than that I asked for five [sic] names of poets who'd been read recently and got in reply a *series of names and links, is that this exactly illustrates what is at issue on another thread -- there are lots and lots and *lots of poets out there, more than anyone can read even if on sabbatical and doing nothing else. What further bothers me is that this is recognised as a phenomenon, whether with approval or despair, but everybody seems to think it's either simply more of the same old same old -- "There have always been more bad poets than good, and the problem has always been finding the good ones" -- or cuts off the past -- "With the Web, things are Totally Different". Both statements seem to me inadequate, and further, both seem in an odd way, especially in the absences around solutions, to ignore other Web Places. There's a problem with regard to poetry at the moment with regard to distribution, information retrieval, and judgement of worth (value, appropriateness, whatever), and there are already existing models which, however inadequately, address this. Specifically, with respect to distribution, Amazon, with respect to information retrieval, google, and with respect to judgement, Wiki. For better or worse, these things work, and are *still developing. I don't know what the answer to the present situation will be, but I'm pretty certain that some sort of impact from these three models will impact on "the poetry scene". And as I'm ever hopeful, for better rather than for worse. << And HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO ROBIN ! >> Thanks Anny -- I'm currently feeling *really old, especially when I remember that I was working with computer programming as a way of generating poetry, and the use of programming languages in poetry, as early as the late sixties. Jeez, it's not that I remember forty years of change, from when computers were ladies dressed in valves, and one, memorably (at least for me) tried to kill me, but that I actually lived through it all. A funny feeling, being there when a world comes into existence, and then to watch it grow. And it may give me an odd perspective on this whole business. Robin +++++++++++++++++++ On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 7:39 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: I don't know, but market forces would come into play. While more and more fiction is being published if at all by university or small presses, the prize remains the best seller list and publishers who can get a book on it. It's posible, still, for a few novelists to live by their writing. It's virtually impossible for poets. Mark Anecdotally: the older, non-MFA poets who earned their living when it became possible by teaching writing, those I know personally, at least, heaved a big sigh of relief when they retired and no longer had to do so. They always felt dishonest, because they didn't think poetry could be taught. Most were loved by their students, to whom they didn't express these opinions. At 01:21 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: My 2 bits. Actually a question. Becoming a poet out of the academy predisposed me to look askance at poetry produced in the academy. And even after I was teaching for over 20 years I felt the same way, feeling (rightly or wrongly) that the poets I liked were those who (though they may have been professors) I felt were non-academic. Frankly, I still tend to still feel that way after 28 years. (Although that may be beginning to change.) BUT when I started reading tons of contemporary fiction, I found great writing coming out of creative writing programs. Are poets in creative writing programs more career oriented (writing to one of several contemporary styles, networking, prize junkies, etc.), compared to fiction writers, or is that my distorted perspective? -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [ mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Bircumshaw Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 10:37 AM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place It's been interesting watching the river flow on this and related topics here lately. There are certainly ominous signs of something similar beginning in the UK and what seems to come across is that "being a recognised poet" is subtly linked with a kind of certificate of middleclassdom. Even though its bearers would loudly deny the category. I can hardly begin to describe the drabness of the poetry they are producing: it makes me want to cry. There is a kind of army of the tin-eared and tedious emerging from the swamp, particularly at locations familiar to Robin such as De Montfort University. And they want to own, to control everything. Any independent life within the poetry scene is anathema to them, it disturbs their sense of their own class status. I've been closely involved with a workshop similar to the one Roger described for 19 years, yet I am almost physically being forced out by such people. One of the curiosities of the situation is that they seem to find allies in the performance poetry scene - I don't know if that happens in the US or whether it is that here matters are more purely that of networks of class closing in the face of recession, because the web of mediocrity gathers in the middle-class amateur poet happily too, as long as they're amenable. But it's no genteel suffocation: these characters play dirty - in the first post after Christmas I had a letter informing me of my 'resignation' from a group I had been involved with, on my birthday I had another letter making veiled threatd of a legal kind unless I surrendered to them some software (which consisted of a copy of a free disk given away by a pc magazine) which they considered their 'intellectual property'. They are small, talentless, vindictive suburbanites, and are probably setting up a poetry press right now near you anytime soon, as it were. David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com From: Mark Weiss To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Mon, 1 March, 2010 2:33:12 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place It's usually a battle within lit departments, unless creative writing becomes its own departmewnt. Has a lot to do with who would get to vote on budget and hires if there were suddenly a bunch of creative writing profs with votes. In the cases I know of the dean usually steps in and weighs in on the side of creative writing, which is a real cash cow. All of this is usually clothed in questions of principle, and I'm sure many of the oarticipants believe it, but it's finally about money and power, and the prestige that brings money and power. Mark At 09:02 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: I was just thinking that at Yale one can get MFA in Painting, but not one in Poetry. Some of the strong lit programs have not formed MFA in Creative Writing programs. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sun, Feb 28, 2010 8:54 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place Might get you an adjunct job, but not in CW. It's not considered a terminal degree. At 08:51 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: Does the straight MA in English carry an weight? Finnegan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From junction at earthlink.net Mon Mar 1 17:41:38 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 17:41:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <4B8C4046.1060907@nut-n-but.net> References: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu> <4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71003011209u4889f306n54408 37a58eb04a@mail.gmail.com> <4B8C4046.1060907@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Depends what you mean by vocation, reward and credentials. Remember, we're talking about a profession (teaching creative writing, as opposed to making poems, is a vocation for very few who do it, tho I must say when I've done it it's always been a lot of fun. But so was teaching social work and history of religion) that no one thought was needed until very recently. When asked if he'd like to teach in an MFA program Milton said "I'd rather go blind." To which Homer responded, "Be careful what you wish for." Best, Mark, laughing among the ruins At 05:31 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: >Mark Weiss wrote: >>Confucius: "All poets are liars." >> >>It aint my sandcastle. I'm reporting what others have told me. >> >>I think it unreasonable to expect poets not to talk about this, >>especially those who've lived through the change. It's the >>environment in which we work. >> >>Here's a way of thinking about that change: There's always been >>transportation, but it used to be horses, now it's cars. A >>different beast entirely. We still travel, but the world changed. >> >>Best, >> >>Mark >It does seem like more and more vocations are becoming trade gelded. >Are there any left where a person is rewarded in proportion to his >ability rather than in proportion to his credentials? > >--Bob > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Mon Mar 1 17:42:00 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 17:42:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com><47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: > Interestingly, no poet I know of who is primarily a visual poet has--to my > knowledge, an MFA. A few have Ph.D.'s but the only two I know of who do > have them in library science. I think a lot of language poets have them. > ... > --Bob This has been discussed a bit by Chris Jones on the poetryetc list, with regard to the new media arts courses. You might like to check it out in the poetryetc archives. Backchannel me if you want pointers to the threads to follow there. Best, Robin From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Mar 1 17:53:26 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 17:53:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <71A9B8920EF140D78E0EA96B01F79981@RobinLaptopPC> References: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com><89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu> <4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com> <71A9B8920EF140D78E0EA96B01F79981@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4B8C4566.8000803@nut-n-but.net> The first step to any solution is a list of schools of poetry. I know, Jeff, I keep saying this, but I haven't bothered to for a long time since I know the idea threatens most poets. Gotta do it at least once every few years, though. --Bob From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Mon Mar 1 17:49:37 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 17:49:37 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <4B8C4046.1060907@nut-n-but.net> References: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com><89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu><4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com><4b65c2d71003011209u4889f306n5440837a58eb04a@mail.gmail.com> <4B8C4046.1060907@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <422CC03B10EC40E89D8EA44A32CB0127@RobinLaptopPC> > It does seem like more and more vocations are becoming trade gelded. Are > there any left where a person is rewarded in proportion to his ability > rather than in proportion to his credentials? > > --Bob Actually, I can think of one place where something like this might be happening -- ADS-l. (American Dialect Scholars list). There, while there is a kind of status at play, and despite the heavy clout that lots of members of the list carry, authority on the list seems to correlate much more to the status and authority of the person's blog. Weird. Authority conferred by your peers because what you do rather than where you teach or what you publish. An unlikely place to see green shoots of possibility spouting, I agree. Oh, and they also, much more than any comparable academic list I've encountered, use and contribute to Wiki, and assume that if you want to find something, you google. (And are fully aware of the possiblities and limitations of both.) Just a thot. Robin From almaginnes at aol.com Mon Mar 1 18:08:42 2010 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 18:08:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <71A9B8920EF140D78E0EA96B01F79981@RobinLaptopPC> References: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com><89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu><4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com> <71A9B8920EF140D78E0EA96B01F79981@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <8CC87AB45927E24-1624-4FFD@webmail-d097.sysops.aol.com> I'm not sure what your issue is, Robin.. You asked if any poet who had an MFA was worth erading, and I listed a few that I'd read with some pleasure recently. If you think there are problems with the MFA culture, you're probably right. It's been over twenty years since I was invovled in an MFA program. If you are asserting, as you seem to be, that no poet with an MFA is worth reading, well, that's just stupid. -----Original Message----- From: Robin Hamilton To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Mon, Mar 1, 2010 5:36 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place << And to Robin: open up that link I sent over, and go through the many links and you will see what kind of people are involved in the many MFA programs. I would tremble if I were you all, to throw such words at hard-working scholars. >> The problem with this point of Anny's, and Al's earlier list of names, is that it quite misses my point. Frankly, if all I wanted was an unsorted list of names or links, I'd go to Silliman's blog -- there are more there of both. What bothers me less than that I asked for five [sic] names of poets who'd been read recently and got in reply a *series of names and links, is that this exactly illustrates what is at issue on another thread -- there are lots and lots and *lots of poets out there, more than anyone can read even if on sabbatical and doing nothing else. What further bothers me is that this is recognised as a phenomenon, whether with approval or despair, but everybody seems to think it's either simply more of the same old same old -- "There have always been more bad poets than good, and the problem has always been finding the good ones" -- or cuts off the past -- "With the Web, things are Totally Different". Both statements seem to me inadequate, and further, both seem in an odd way, especially in the absences around solutions, to ignore other Web Places. There's a problem with regard to poetry at the moment with regard to distribution, information retrieval, and judgement of worth (value, appropriateness, whatever), and there are already existing models which, however inadequately, address this. Specifically, with respect to distribution, Amazon, with respect to information retrieval, google, and with respect to judgement, Wiki. For better or worse, these things work, and are *still developing. I don't know what the answer to the present situation will be, but I'm pretty certain that some sort of impact from these three models will impact on "the poetry scene". And as I'm ever hopeful, for better rather than for worse. << And HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO ROBIN ! >> Thanks Anny -- I'm currently feeling *really old, especially when I remember that I was working with computer programming as a way of generating poetry, and the use of programming languages in poetry, as early as the late sixties. Jeez, it's not that I remember forty years of change, from when computers were ladies dressed in valves, and one, memorably (at least for me) tried to kill me, but that I actually lived through it all. A funny feeling, being there when a world comes into existence, and then to watch it grow. And it may give me an odd perspective on this whole business. Robin +++++++++++++++++++ On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 7:39 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: I don't know, but market forces would come into play. While more and more fiction is being published if at all by university or small presses, the prize remains the best seller list and publishers who can get a book on it. It's posible, still, for a few novelists to live by their writing. It's virtually impossible for poets. Mark Anecdotally: the older, non-MFA poets who earned their living when it became possible by teaching writing, those I know personally, at least, heaved a big sigh of relief when they retired and no longer had to do so. They always felt dishonest, because they didn't think poetry could be taught. Most were loved by their students, to whom they didn't express these opinions. At 01:21 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: My 2 bits. Actually a question. Becoming a poet out of the academy predisposed me to look askance at poetry produced in the academy. And even after I was teaching for over 20 years I felt the same way, feeling (rightly or wrongly) that the poets I liked were those who (though they may have been professors) I felt were non-academic. Frankly, I still tend to still feel that way after 28 years. (Although that may be beginning to change.) BUT when I started reading tons of contemporary fiction, I found great writing coming out of creative writing programs. Are poets in creative writing programs more career oriented (writing to one of several contemporary styles, networking, prize junkies, etc.), compared to fiction writers, or is that my distorted perspective? -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [ mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Bircumshaw Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 10:37 AM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place It's been interesting watching the river flow on this and related topics here lately. There are certainly ominous signs of something similar beginning in the UK and what seems to come across is that "being a recognised poet" is subtly linked with a kind of certificate of middleclassdom. Even though its bearers would loudly deny the category. I can hardly begin to describe the drabness of the poetry they are producing: it makes me want to cry. There is a kind of army of the tin-eared and tedious emerging from the swamp, particularly at locations familiar to Robin such as De Montfort University. And they want to own, to control everything. Any independent life within the poetry scene is anathema to them, it disturbs their sense of their own class status. I've been closely involved with a workshop similar to the one Roger described for 19 years, yet I am almost physically being forced out by such people. One of the curiosities of the situation is that they seem to find allies in the performance poetry scene - I don't know if that happens in the US or whether it is that here matters are more purely that of networks of class closing in the face of recession, because the web of mediocrity gathers in the middle-class amateur poet happily too, as long as they're amenable. But it's no genteel suffocation: these characters play dirty - in the first post after Christmas I had a letter informing me of my 'resignation' from a group I had been involved with, on my birthday I had another letter making veiled threatd of a legal kind unless I surrendered to them some software (which consisted of a copy of a free disk given away by a pc magazine) which they considered their 'intellectual property'. They are small, talentless, vindictive suburbanites, and are probably setting up a poetry press right now near you anytime soon, as it were. David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com From: Mark Weiss To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Mon, 1 March, 2010 2:33:12 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place It's usually a battle within lit departments, unless creative writing becomes its own departmewnt. Has a lot to do with who would get to vote on budget and hires if there were suddenly a bunch of creative writing profs with votes. In the cases I know of the dean usually steps in and weighs in on the side of creative writing, which is a real cash cow. All of this is usually clothed in questions of principle, and I'm sure many of the oarticipants believe it, but it's finally about money and power, and the prestige that brings money and power. Mark At 09:02 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: I was just thinking that at Yale one can get MFA in Painting, but not one in Poetry. Some of the strong lit programs have not formed MFA in Creative Writing programs. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sun, Feb 28, 2010 8:54 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place Might get you an adjunct job, but not in CW. It's not considered a terminal degree. At 08:51 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: Does the straight MA in English carry an weight? Finnegan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Mon Mar 1 18:10:32 2010 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 17:10:32 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <422CC03B10EC40E89D8EA44A32CB0127@RobinLaptopPC> References: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu> <4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71003011209u4889f306n5440837a58eb04a@mail.gmail.com> <4B8C4046.1060907@nut-n-but.net> <422CC03B10EC40E89D8EA44A32CB0127@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: Another thot: I've never seen a library or bookstore that didn't have more than I could read, or would want to. I've never thought of that as a problem, however. But, hey, that's just me. And my guess is that even Ron Silliman doesn't read all the people and links he provides. I don't even read all of most books I read. Some exceptions though, including the one linked below. Hal follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest collection -- http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 4:49 PM, Robin Hamilton < robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote: > It does seem like more and more vocations are becoming trade gelded. Are >> there any left where a person is rewarded in proportion to his ability >> rather than in proportion to his credentials? >> >> --Bob >> > > Actually, I can think of one place where something like this might be > happening -- ADS-l. (American Dialect Scholars list). > > There, while there is a kind of status at play, and despite the heavy clout > that lots of members of the list carry, authority on the list seems to > correlate much more to the status and authority of the person's blog. > > Weird. Authority conferred by your peers because what you do rather than > where you teach or what you publish. An unlikely place to see green shoots > of possibility spouting, I agree. Oh, and they also, much more than any > comparable academic list I've encountered, use and contribute to Wiki, and > assume that if you want to find something, you google. (And are fully aware > of the possiblities and limitations of both.) > > Just a thot. > > Robin > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Mon Mar 1 18:24:51 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 18:24:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <8CC87AB45927E24-1624-4FFD@webmail-d097.sysops.aol.com> References: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com><89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu><4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com><71A9B8920EF140D78E0EA96B01F79981@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC87AB45927E24-1624-4FFD@webmail-d097.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <3A96A2DB955A4E08A60E76E4A3509AE9@RobinLaptopPC> If you are asserting, as you seem to be, that no poet with an MFA is worth reading, well, that's just stupid. I'd entirely agree, if I *had said anything like that, Al. As it was, I think at one point I actually went out of my way to point out that that *wasn't what I was saying. I have concerns about the nature of the institutionalisation of poetry, share with Mark a sense that one of the consequences of the MFA is to produce inferior art, am concerned with how to address the problem of information on the internet ... I could go on, but as apparently many people seems to be unconcerned with what I'm actually saying, as opposed to what they think I'm saying, and as none of the answers I've been given have in any way addressed my concerns (though much of the incidental specific information has been fascinating), other than what I knew already, that there are Lots of Poets Out There Worth Reading (which I have to say doesn't surprise me) and Their Particular List (as opposed to the three hundred or so only partially overlapping lists by others) are Specially Worth Reading ... When I ask for five names, and am given a list of thirty, then I know there's a communications disconnect. So enough. The rest is silen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Mon Mar 1 18:30:35 2010 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 18:30:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu> <4b65c2d71002281133ue494a5au214bda26599ca09f@mail.gmail.com> <8CC86E79962E54D-47DC-1EF93@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <8CC86F8DE4DCF70-47DC-20A94@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <8CC86FA6F5A410B-47DC-20CDD@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b1003011530i14333914mabd14c744fd2b3ad@mail.gmail.com> "tin eared and tedious"---this is a diatribe that's fun to read, Dave. I hear your main point about classness and "feel" it but don't entirely agree with it. I believe it's something even deeper than classness that separates the smooth poets from the KNOCKOUT poets [such as you, as I keep insisting]. It's roughness, bumptiousness, a Different View of everything, a refusal to accept norms, forms, standards and received wisdoms. These are the KNOCKOUT poet's *personal* qualities, the poems which're any damned thing the poet wants them to be, but they will have *it*----the DIFFERENCE----and that DIFFERENCE is instantly recognisable within a couple lines. MFA, SchmemFA, I dunno for true what's what, though I support any benign encouraging of incipient poets to read lotsa poetry and write lotsa poetry. The KNOCKOUT folk will out, and usually will take a coupla other KNOCKOUTS with them, each odd-mentoring each, like KNOCKOUT-seeking missiles. Best, Judy On 1 March 2010 11:36, David Bircumshaw wrote: > It's been interesting watching the river flow on this and related topics > here lately. There are certainly ominous signs of something similar > beginning in the UK and what seems to come across is that "being a > recognised poet" is subtly linked with a kind of certificate of > middleclassdom. > Even though its bearers would loudly deny the category. I can hardly begin > to describe the drabness of the poetry they are producing: it makes me want > to cry. There is a kind of army of the tin-eared and tedious emerging from > the swamp, particularly at locations familiar to Robin such as De Montfort > University. > And they want to own, to control everything. Any independent life within > the poetry scene is anathema to them, it disturbs their sense of their own > class status. I've been closely involved with a workshop similar to the one > Roger described for 19 years, yet I am almost physically being forced out by > such people. > One of the curiosities of the situation is that they seem to find allies in > the performance poetry scene - I don't know if that happens in the US or > whether it is that here matters are more purely that of networks of class > closing in the face of recession, because the web of mediocrity gathers in > the middle-class amateur poet happily too, as long as they're amenable. > But it's no genteel suffocation: these characters play dirty - in the first > post after Christmas I had a letter informing me of my 'resignation' from a > group I had been involved with, on my birthday I had another letter making > veiled threatd of a legal kind unless I surrendered to them some software > (which consisted of a copy of a free disk given away by a pc magazine) which > they considered their 'intellectual property'. > They are small, talentless, vindictive suburbanites, and are probably > setting up a poetry press right now near you anytime soon, as it were. > > David Bircumshaw > > > Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk > Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Mark Weiss > *To:* "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > *Sent:* Mon, 1 March, 2010 2:33:12 > > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place > > It's usually a battle within lit departments, unless creative writing > becomes its own departmewnt. Has a lot to do with who would get to vote on > budget and hires if there were suddenly a bunch of creative writing profs > with votes. In the cases I know of the dean usually steps in and weighs in > on the side of creative writing, which is a real cash cow. > > All of this is usually clothed in questions of principle, and I'm sure many > of the oarticipants believe it, but it's finally about money and power, and > the prestige that brings money and power. > > Mark > > At 09:02 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: > > I was just thinking that at Yale one can get MFA in Painting, but not one > in Poetry. Some of the strong lit programs have not formed MFA in Creative > Writing programs. > Finnegan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Weiss > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Sent: Sun, Feb 28, 2010 8:54 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place > > Might get you an adjunct job, but not in CW. It's not considered a terminal > degree. > > At 08:51 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: > > Does the straight MA in English carry an weight? > Finnegan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From millb at aol.com Mon Mar 1 18:34:53 2010 From: millb at aol.com (Millicent) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 18:34:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Reviewers wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CC87AEED8844DD-5F64-4045@webmail-d037.sysops.aol.com> Announcement: For those of you who read my poetry book, Woman on a Shaky Bridge, I sure would appreciate a review or a few lines posted on Amazon. For those interested in more formally reviewing my book (if you regularly review books for a publication or an online site, please let me know), I have a couple review copies left, or I could send you a soft-copy). Thanks in advance, Millicent http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1599245523/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller= -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Mon Mar 1 21:15:14 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 21:15:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com><89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu><4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com><4b65c2d71003011209u4889f306n5440837a58eb04a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CC87C5544458D7-73E8-3EF8@webmail-m045.sysops.aol.com> From: Mark Weiss Confucius: "All poets are liars." - I thought that was Plato. But maybe they crossed minds. Or were they prescient and speaking for the post -modernists who dislike the 'authentic voice' and don't believe a poem can be vessel of the truth?. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Mar 1 21:16:51 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 21:16:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <8CC87C5544458D7-73E8-3EF8@webmail-m045.sysops.aol.com> References: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu> <4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71003011209u4889f306n5440837a58eb04a@mail.gmail.com> <8CC87C5544458D7-73E8-3EF8@webmail-m045.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Everybody seems to be in agreement about poets. At 09:15 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: >From: Mark Weiss >Confucius: "All poets are liars." > >- >I thought that was Plato. But maybe they crossed minds. > >Or were they prescient and speaking for the post -modernists who >dislike the 'authentic voice' and don't believe a poem can be vessel >of the truth?. >Finnegan >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Mon Mar 1 22:34:43 2010 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 22:34:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4B8C8753.5080505@opus40.org> This doesn't seem to me to good argument against MFA programs. I'm hoping that at least some of the other 80 percent are still reading the occasional program. Halvard Johnson wrote: > There was a study some years back (back far enough that I can't cite > an source for it) that found that of MFA graduates (don't remember > if this was Iowa only or MFA programs in general) surveyed only > around 20% of them were still producing writing 5 years after > graduating from whatever program they were in. > > So it appeared that whatever career hopes they might have had were > dashed sufficiently after 5 years to stop them in their tracks. > > Anyone remember this? > > Hal > > follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest > collection -- > > http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Mark Weiss > wrote: > > It's really the wrong question, and the parameters you suggest, > Robin, are a little off. First those parameters. Most poets a > generation ago weren't MFAs , and most of those who taught in that > first generation also didn't have MFAs, but they were hardly a > product of the system. Blackburn also taught creative writing > during the last two years of his life, and Tom, as you note, has > also done so, but they're very much of the older world. > > The question of quality inevitably involves taste, and it would be > pointless to argue that. And it's not determinable, I think, even > if we all agreed in our taste, that the percentage of garbage has > climbed, tho I think the percentage of published garbage probably > has, as there has been an explosion of outlets, not least the web. > The problem, it seems to me, is that the programs tend to produce > (at least they try to) competent poets, who read (within a given > program, but more broadly across categories of programs) mostly > the same things. Competence implies knowing and having a way of > doing things. This becomes perpetuated in future hiring--one > recognizes similar competence in the applicants. What seems to be > happening already is a limited number of acceptable kinds of > institutional poetry of limited aesthetic ambition written largely > for an audience schooled to expect those limitations. Undoubtedly > some very good poetry is produced within these limitations--it > certainly can be--and undoubtedly there are some who successfully > rebel against the norms. That audience is almost entirely > university-based. It may be a larger audience than poetry has had > in the past few decades, but it's an audience of limited > perspective and relatively similar experience. > > Now maybe I'm completely wrong about this. Maybe the largest > change in the culture of poetry since it separated itself from the > clergy has had and will have no effect. Maybe, but I wouldn't put > money on it. > > Anecdotes are of course merely anecdotal. Here's a couple, from a > summer at Yaddo maybe 20 years ago. The younger cohort of poets > that summer were mostly new-minted Iowa MFAs. The acknowledged > star of the group was a southern poet who had written a historical > verse novel. Quite an achievement, tho I doubt even his mother > could love it. It was published and made his reputation, got him a > job and some eminence. He hasn't, to the best of my knowledge, > written another verse novel (why would anyone write a verse > novel?), but he has produced consistently awful verse that's > consistently praised by critice raised in the same educational > environment. > > The other is more intimate. In my world poets share poems, and > expect criticism from each other. One of the other Iowans and I > decided to meet for coffee and show each other work. She showed me > a dreadfully boring, competent poem. I suggested a few changes. > "But it's already been published!" I was really shocked. What does > that have to do with anything? If the poem needs helping one helps > it. Then I showed her one of mine. At the time I was writing > rhythmically-syncopated poetry that demanded occasional odd > linebreaks and with lines of very dissimilar length. She was > genuinely distressed. "But I was taught that all the lines should > be the same length!" I hope she had been on a fellowship, > otherwise she was cheated. > > Boy, do I long for the bohemia of not very long ago. > > Mark > > > At 12:41 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: >> << >> All this talk of the drabness produced by poets in workshops and >> MFA programs is rather pointless unless the accusers are willing >> to name names. Who exactly is producing this bad poetry? Or maybe >> more to the point, whose students are producing this bad poetry? >> >> Al has sorta a point here, and I was almost tempted to go >> somewhere and read some of the material. "Go forth and read some >> MFAers poetry -- you *know it's good for you." >> >> But the problem is finding a black swan ... or wading through >> masses of whatever. (Back to that *other prerenial debate on the >> Web and poetry, that as with the Great MFA Debate, all too often >> generates the usual glumly familiar partial answers.) >> >> But there's another way of approaching it. Of five poets whom >> you read recently, which of them were affiliated with the MFA >> system? Not just ones published who you're reading, but >> generally. (But even that's couching the question with a built >> in bias, as I'm sure no one is suggesting that absolutely all and >> every poet in any way associated with an MFA course is >> worthless. By sheer random chance, at the very least, some might >> be good. Or good *despite the MFA system?) >> >> So the last five I've been reading: >> >> Patrick Macmanus >> Simon Armitage >> Paul Blackburn >> nick-e melville >> Tom Leonard >> >> Mind you, given that Tom *did teach on an MA in Creative Writing >> course, maybe one of the five could be counted in. >> >> Or maybe the whole "name names" business is a misdirection. >> Maybe not. I'd turn the question back to Al -- name one poet >> produced by the MFA system who is worth reading? >> >> The problem here is partly sheer mediocrity, and like the poor, >> that always has been and always will be with us. Just seems to >> be more of it around than usual at the moment. >> >> Or maybe that's just my imagination ... >> >> Robin >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* > (University of California Press). > > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's /Random House > Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry/ has a bilingual anthology > so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the > United States and also created a superb collection of foreign > poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John > Palattella in /The Nation/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Mon Mar 1 22:39:07 2010 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon, 01 Mar 2010 22:39:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Reviewers wanted In-Reply-To: <8CC87AEED8844DD-5F64-4045@webmail-d037.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC87AEED8844DD-5F64-4045@webmail-d037.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B8C885B.3010301@opus40.org> I just got it -- read it -- will gladly post my comments on Amazon, although I don't know who else is much interested in a review from me. I liked the book a lot. Millicent wrote: > Announcement: > > For those of you who read my poetry book, Woman on a Shaky Bridge, I > sure would appreciate a review or a few lines posted on Amazon. > > For those interested in more formally reviewing my book (if you > regularly review books for a publication or an online site, please let > me know), I have a couple review copies left, or I could send you a > soft-copy). > > Thanks in advance, > > Millicent > > http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1599245523/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller > = > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From ccooley at overdomain.com Mon Mar 1 22:50:23 2010 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 19:50:23 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry workshops all over the place Message-ID: In the process of looking for this quote, I found a few others that relate to this discussion: "Ignorant [people] of genius are constantly rediscovering 'laws' of art which the academics had mislaid or hidden." "There is one quality which unites all great and perdurable writers, you don't NEED schools and colleges to keep 'em alive. Put them out of the curriculum, lay them in the dust of libraries, and once in every so often a chance reader, unsubsidized and unbribed, will dig them up again, put them in the light again, without asking favours." "The honest critic must be content to find a VERY LITTLE contemporary work worth serious attention; but he must also be ready to RECOGNIZE that little, and to demote work of the past when a new work surpasses it." "More writers fail from lack of character than from lack of intelligence." "The great savants ignore, quite often, the idiocies of the ruck of the teaching profession." "The answer [to prosody] is: LISTEN to the sound that it makes." -- Ezra Pound _The ABC of Reading_ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 00:12:43 2010 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 1 Mar 2010 23:12:43 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <4B8C8753.5080505@opus40.org> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C8753.5080505@opus40.org> Message-ID: I wasn't arguing against MFA programs. Nothing against them, but then I've no experience of them either. Hal follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest collection -- http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 9:34 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > This doesn't seem to me to good argument against MFA programs. I'm hoping > that at least some of the other 80 percent are still reading the occasional > program. > > Halvard Johnson wrote: > >> There was a study some years back (back far enough that I can't cite >> an source for it) that found that of MFA graduates (don't remember >> if this was Iowa only or MFA programs in general) surveyed only >> around 20% of them were still producing writing 5 years after >> graduating from whatever program they were in. >> >> So it appeared that whatever career hopes they might have had were >> dashed sufficiently after 5 years to stop them in their tracks. >> >> Anyone remember this? >> >> Hal >> >> follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest >> collection -- >> >> http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> halvard at gmail.com >> >> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Mark Weiss > junction at earthlink.net>> wrote: >> >> It's really the wrong question, and the parameters you suggest, >> Robin, are a little off. First those parameters. Most poets a >> generation ago weren't MFAs , and most of those who taught in that >> first generation also didn't have MFAs, but they were hardly a >> product of the system. Blackburn also taught creative writing >> during the last two years of his life, and Tom, as you note, has >> also done so, but they're very much of the older world. >> >> The question of quality inevitably involves taste, and it would be >> pointless to argue that. And it's not determinable, I think, even >> if we all agreed in our taste, that the percentage of garbage has >> climbed, tho I think the percentage of published garbage probably >> has, as there has been an explosion of outlets, not least the web. >> The problem, it seems to me, is that the programs tend to produce >> (at least they try to) competent poets, who read (within a given >> program, but more broadly across categories of programs) mostly >> the same things. Competence implies knowing and having a way of >> doing things. This becomes perpetuated in future hiring--one >> recognizes similar competence in the applicants. What seems to be >> happening already is a limited number of acceptable kinds of >> institutional poetry of limited aesthetic ambition written largely >> for an audience schooled to expect those limitations. Undoubtedly >> some very good poetry is produced within these limitations--it >> certainly can be--and undoubtedly there are some who successfully >> rebel against the norms. That audience is almost entirely >> university-based. It may be a larger audience than poetry has had >> in the past few decades, but it's an audience of limited >> perspective and relatively similar experience. >> >> Now maybe I'm completely wrong about this. Maybe the largest >> change in the culture of poetry since it separated itself from the >> clergy has had and will have no effect. Maybe, but I wouldn't put >> money on it. >> >> Anecdotes are of course merely anecdotal. Here's a couple, from a >> summer at Yaddo maybe 20 years ago. The younger cohort of poets >> that summer were mostly new-minted Iowa MFAs. The acknowledged >> star of the group was a southern poet who had written a historical >> verse novel. Quite an achievement, tho I doubt even his mother >> could love it. It was published and made his reputation, got him a >> job and some eminence. He hasn't, to the best of my knowledge, >> written another verse novel (why would anyone write a verse >> novel?), but he has produced consistently awful verse that's >> consistently praised by critice raised in the same educational >> environment. >> >> The other is more intimate. In my world poets share poems, and >> expect criticism from each other. One of the other Iowans and I >> decided to meet for coffee and show each other work. She showed me >> a dreadfully boring, competent poem. I suggested a few changes. >> "But it's already been published!" I was really shocked. What does >> that have to do with anything? If the poem needs helping one helps >> it. Then I showed her one of mine. At the time I was writing >> rhythmically-syncopated poetry that demanded occasional odd >> linebreaks and with lines of very dissimilar length. She was >> genuinely distressed. "But I was taught that all the lines should >> be the same length!" I hope she had been on a fellowship, >> otherwise she was cheated. >> >> Boy, do I long for the bohemia of not very long ago. >> >> Mark >> >> >> At 12:41 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: >> >>> << >>> All this talk of the drabness produced by poets in workshops and >>> MFA programs is rather pointless unless the accusers are willing >>> to name names. Who exactly is producing this bad poetry? Or maybe >>> more to the point, whose students are producing this bad poetry? >>> >>> Al has sorta a point here, and I was almost tempted to go >>> somewhere and read some of the material. "Go forth and read some >>> MFAers poetry -- you *know it's good for you." >>> >>> But the problem is finding a black swan ... or wading through >>> masses of whatever. (Back to that *other prerenial debate on the >>> Web and poetry, that as with the Great MFA Debate, all too often >>> generates the usual glumly familiar partial answers.) >>> >>> But there's another way of approaching it. Of five poets whom >>> you read recently, which of them were affiliated with the MFA >>> system? Not just ones published who you're reading, but >>> generally. (But even that's couching the question with a built >>> in bias, as I'm sure no one is suggesting that absolutely all and >>> every poet in any way associated with an MFA course is >>> worthless. By sheer random chance, at the very least, some might >>> be good. Or good *despite the MFA system?) >>> >>> So the last five I've been reading: >>> >>> Patrick Macmanus >>> Simon Armitage >>> Paul Blackburn >>> nick-e melville >>> Tom Leonard >>> >>> Mind you, given that Tom *did teach on an MA in Creative Writing >>> course, maybe one of the five could be counted in. >>> >>> Or maybe the whole "name names" business is a misdirection. Maybe >>> not. I'd turn the question back to Al -- name one poet >>> produced by the MFA system who is worth reading? >>> >>> The problem here is partly sheer mediocrity, and like the poor, >>> that always has been and always will be with us. Just seems to >>> be more of it around than usual at the moment. >>> >>> Or maybe that's just my imagination ... >>> >>> Robin >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* >> (University of California Press). >> >> http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's /Random House >> Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry/ has a bilingual anthology >> so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the >> United States and also created a superb collection of foreign >> poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John >> Palattella in /The Nation/ >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Tue Mar 2 01:25:16 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 00:25:16 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) Message-ID: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> I guess my recurrent role in these threads is to note that most schools don't have MFA programs, most creative writing instruction in this country happens outside of such programs, and that most MFA programs are not Iowa. Furthermore, most creative writing instruction does not occur at the graduate level. These are facts that the broad-brushers railing about the MFA/academic/"official verse culture" ought to at least acknowledge. Just curious: can we have a show of hands as to how many subscribers to NewPo are teachers? Of those, how many teach in an MFA program? ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bircumplus at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 2 02:48:51 2010 From: bircumplus at yahoo.co.uk (David Bircumshaw) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 07:48:51 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <71A9B8920EF140D78E0EA96B01F79981@RobinLaptopPC> References: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com><89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu> <4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com> <71A9B8920EF140D78E0EA96B01F79981@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <57636.53827.qm@web28516.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Last five poets I've read: Mallarme Robert Duncan Barry Macsweeney Mebh McGuckian C.K.Williams No reading programme etc behind that list. Of the three: Mallarme's your genuine article, easily the 'best':Macsweeney's incredibly uneven but some things, like his sequence 'Pearl', are possesed of that quality 'genuis'; Duncan I like, but possibly not for everyone: McGuckian's a versifier with a taste and flair for metaphor; Williams a clever prof with a conscience. This was mainly re-reading, but some work was new to me, as you may have gathered the last two made the least impression on me, they seemed thinnest. David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com ________________________________ From: Robin Hamilton To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Mon, 1 March, 2010 22:36:54 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place << And to Robin: open up that link I sent over, and go through the many links and you will see what kind of people are involved in the many MFA programs. I would tremble if I were you all, to throw such words at hard-working scholars. >> The problem with this point of Anny's, and Al's earlier list of names, is that it quite misses my point. Frankly, if all I wanted was an unsorted list of names or links, I'd go to Silliman's blog -- there are more there of both. What bothers me less than that I asked for five [sic] names of poets who'd been read recently and got in reply a *series of names and links, is that this exactly illustrates what is at issue on another thread -- there are lots and lots and *lots of poets out there, more than anyone can read even if on sabbatical and doing nothing else. What further bothers me is that this is recognised as a phenomenon, whether with approval or despair, but everybody seems to think it's either simply more of the same old same old -- "There have always been more bad poets than good, and the problem has always been finding the good ones" -- or cuts off the past -- "With the Web, things are Totally Different". Both statements seem to me inadequate, and further, both seem in an odd way, especially in the absences around solutions, to ignore other Web Places. There's a problem with regard to poetry at the moment with regard to distribution, information retrieval, and judgement of worth (value, appropriateness, whatever), and there are already existing models which, however inadequately, address this. Specifically, with respect to distribution, Amazon, with respect to information retrieval, google, and with respect to judgement, Wiki. For better or worse, these things work, and are *still developing. I don't know what the answer to the present situation will be, but I'm pretty certain that some sort of impact from these three models will impact on "the poetry scene". And as I'm ever hopeful, for better rather than for worse. << And HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO ROBIN ! >> Thanks Anny -- I'm currently feeling *really old, especially when I remember that I was working with computer programming as a way of generating poetry, and the use of programming languages in poetry, as early as the late sixties. Jeez, it's not that I remember forty years of change, from when computers were ladies dressed in valves, and one, memorably (at least for me) tried to kill me, but that I actually lived through it all. A funny feeling, being there when a world comes into existence, and then to watch it grow. And it may give me an odd perspective on this whole business. Robin +++++++++++++++++++ On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 7:39 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: I don't know, but market forces would come into play. While more and more fiction is being published if at all by university or small presses, the prize remains the best seller list and publishers who can get a book on it. It's posible, still, for a few novelists to live by their writing. It's virtually impossible for poets. Mark Anecdotally: the older, non-MFA poets who earned their living when it became possible by teaching writing, those I know personally, at least, heaved a big sigh of relief when they retired and no longer had to do so. They always felt dishonest, because they didn't think poetry could be taught. Most were loved by their students, to whom they didn't express these opinions. At 01:21 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: My 2 bits. Actually a question. Becoming a poet out of the academy predisposed me to look askance at poetry produced in the academy. And even after I was teaching for over 20 years I felt the same way, feeling (rightly or wrongly) that the poets I liked were those who (though they may have been professors) I felt were non-academic. Frankly, I still tend to still feel that way after 28 years. (Although that may be beginning to change.) BUT when I started reading tons of contemporary fiction, I found great writing coming out of creative writing programs. Are poets in creative writing programs more career oriented (writing to one of several contemporary styles, networking, prize junkies, etc.), compared to fiction writers, or is that my distorted perspective? -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [ mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Bircumshaw Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 10:37 AM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place It's been interesting watching the river flow on this and related topics here lately. There are certainly ominous signs of something similar beginning in the UK and what seems to come across is that "being a recognised poet" is subtly linked with a kind of certificate of middleclassdom. Even though its bearers would loudly deny the category. I can hardly begin to describe the drabness of the poetry they are producing: it makes me want to cry. There is a kind of army of the tin-eared and tedious emerging from the swamp, particularly at locations familiar to Robin such as De Montfort University. And they want to own, to control everything. Any independent life within the poetry scene is anathema to them, it disturbs their sense of their own class status. I've been closely involved with a workshop similar to the one Roger described for 19 years, yet I am almost physically being forced out by such people. One of the curiosities of the situation is that they seem to find allies in the performance poetry scene - I don't know if that happens in the US or whether it is that here matters are more purely that of networks of class closing in the face of recession, because the web of mediocrity gathers in the middle-class amateur poet happily too, as long as they're amenable. But it's no genteel suffocation: these characters play dirty - in the first post after Christmas I had a letter informing me of my 'resignation' from a group I had been involved with, on my birthday I had another letter making veiled threatd of a legal kind unless I surrendered to them some software (which consisted of a copy of a free disk given away by a pc magazine) which they considered their 'intellectual property'. They are small, talentless, vindictive suburbanites, and are probably setting up a poetry press right now near you anytime soon, as it were. David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com From: Mark Weiss To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Mon, 1 March, 2010 2:33:12 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place It's usually a battle within lit departments, unless creative writing becomes its own departmewnt. Has a lot to do with who would get to vote on budget and hires if there were suddenly a bunch of creative writing profs with votes. In the cases I know of the dean usually steps in and weighs in on the side of creative writing, which is a real cash cow. All of this is usually clothed in questions of principle, and I'm sure many of the oarticipants believe it, but it's finally about money and power, and the prestige that brings money and power. Mark At 09:02 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: I was just thinking that at Yale one can get MFA in Painting, but not one in Poetry. Some of the strong lit programs have not formed MFA in Creative Writing programs. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sun, Feb 28, 2010 8:54 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place Might get you an adjunct job, but not in CW. It's not considered a terminal degree. At 08:51 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: Does the straight MA in English carry an weight? Finnegan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Tue Mar 2 05:54:46 2010 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 05:54:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> References: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4B8CEE76.8010602@opus40.org> One hand up. I teach on an undergraduate level, have never taught in a MFA program, have taught undergraduate creative writing courses, generally believe that their purpose is to expose students to a different way of approaching, considering and experiencing literature, not as an apprenticeship for a professional career. David Graham wrote: > > > I guess my recurrent role in these threads is to note that most > schools don't have MFA programs, most creative writing instruction in > this country happens outside of such programs, and that most MFA > programs are not Iowa. Furthermore, most creative writing instruction > does not occur at the graduate level. These are facts that the > broad-brushers railing about the MFA/academic/"official verse culture" > ought to at least acknowledge. > > Just curious: can we have a show of hands as to how many subscribers > to NewPo are teachers? Of those, how many teach in an MFA program? > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From junction at earthlink.net Tue Mar 2 09:25:21 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 09:25:21 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: <4B8CEE76.8010602@opus40.org> References: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> <4B8CEE76.8010602@opus40.org> Message-ID: Are your students creative writing majors? At 05:54 AM 3/2/2010, you wrote: >One hand up. I teach on an undergraduate level, have never taught in >a MFA program, have taught undergraduate creative writing courses, >generally believe that their purpose is to expose students to a >different way of approaching, considering and experiencing >literature, not as an apprenticeship for a professional career. > >David Graham wrote: >> >> >>I guess my recurrent role in these threads is to note that most >>schools don't have MFA programs, most creative writing instruction >>in this country happens outside of such programs, and that most MFA >>programs are not Iowa. Furthermore, most creative writing >>instruction does not occur at the graduate level. These are facts >>that the broad-brushers railing about the MFA/academic/"official >>verse culture" ought to at least acknowledge. >> >>Just curious: can we have a show of hands as to how many >>subscribers to NewPo are teachers? Of those, how many teach in an >>MFA program? >> >> >>======================================== >>David Graham >>grahamd at ripon.edu >> >>Home Page: >>http://web.me.com/drjazz >> >>Poetry Library: >>http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >>========================================== >> >> >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >-- >Tad Richards >Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > >http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From heatherjunegibbons at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 09:50:00 2010 From: heatherjunegibbons at gmail.com (Heather June Gibbons) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 09:50:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> References: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> Message-ID: Agreed, David. These are important facts to acknowledge. Show of hand: I teach creative writing to undergraduates, only some of whom are creative writing majors. And I have an MFA from Iowa. -Heather Heather June Gibbons heatherjunegibbons.com On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:25 AM, David Graham wrote: > > > I guess my recurrent role in these threads is to note that most schools > don't have MFA programs, most creative writing instruction in this country > happens outside of such programs, and that most MFA programs are not Iowa. > Furthermore, most creative writing instruction does not occur at the > graduate level. These are facts that the broad-brushers railing about the > MFA/academic/"official verse culture" ought to at least acknowledge. > > Just curious: can we have a show of hands as to how many subscribers to > NewPo are teachers? Of those, how many teach in an MFA program? > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From almaginnes at aol.com Tue Mar 2 09:53:28 2010 From: almaginnes at aol.com (almaginnes at aol.com) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 09:53:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: References: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <8CC882F40B93828-1B04-4A65@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> I teach in a community college. No creative writing majors here but some of my students have gone on to major in writing as undergrads and several have gotten MFA's. I have an MFA from the University of Arkansas. -----Original Message----- From: Heather June Gibbons To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Tue, Mar 2, 2010 9:50 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) Agreed, David. These are important facts to acknowledge. Show of hand: I teach creative writing to undergraduates, only some of whom are creative writing majors. And I have an MFA from Iowa. -Heather Heather June Gibbons heatherjunegibbons.com On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:25 AM, David Graham wrote: I guess my recurrent role in these threads is to note that most schools don't have MFA programs, most creative writing instruction in this country happens outside of such programs, and that most MFA programs are not Iowa. Furthermore, most creative writing instruction does not occur at the graduate level. These are facts that the broad-brushers railing about the MFA/academic/"official verse culture" ought to at least acknowledge. Just curious: can we have a show of hands as to how many subscribers to NewPo are teachers? Of those, how many teach in an MFA program? ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 10:02:56 2010 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 08:02:56 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> References: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <648208b61003020702o4683de0eh96f66e7f2036a867@mail.gmail.com> Agreed, David. MFA from Iowa (74), and taught creative writing at a community college, poetry writing to undergrads at a couple of colleges and universities, and a grad seminar at a university with a writing program that soon after began offering the MFA. Many high points, but I'm happy to write of this in past tense. - Jim On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 11:25 PM, David Graham wrote: > > > I guess my recurrent role in these threads is to note that most schools > don't have MFA programs, most creative writing instruction in this country > happens outside of such programs, and that most MFA programs are not Iowa. > Furthermore, most creative writing instruction does not occur at the > graduate level. These are facts that the broad-brushers railing about the > MFA/academic/"official verse culture" ought to at least acknowledge. > > Just curious: can we have a show of hands as to how many subscribers to > NewPo are teachers? Of those, how many teach in an MFA program? > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Tue Mar 2 10:17:01 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 09:17:01 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: <8CC882F40B93828-1B04-4A65@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I teach at Ripon College, a very small liberal arts school with no grad students. No creative writing track in the English department, where I teach freshman comp, sophomore surveys, various topics courses, and creative writing classes--and not every semester for the latter. This is the career my MFA prepared me for, and in fact I have no complaints. I've been very lucky to be able to do what I love to do. In my 23 years at Ripon I've had, I think, only 2 students go on to publish books of poetry. A handful more went to grad school in creative writing, then for the most part moved in other directions. None that I know of teaches in an MFA program. Need I add that preparing students for "careers" in writing is not my goal? Otherwise, imagine how bitter I might be, instead of the cheery and agreeable fellow you all know me as. . . . Another thing I find myself pitching regularly into these discussions when they crop up is that the world of academic creative writing is not a monolith. (Start with the fact that there are numerous schools with programs other than the MFA.) The many kinds of programs have widely differing goals and strengths, and of course students attend them for a whole range of reasons. Becoming like Jorie Graham and teaching at Iowa may be a daydream for many, but by no means all, and it's certainly not a reality for the vast majority of us. As I've often written, I think there are many things wrong with a lot of creative writing programs. To the extent that they exist as separate entities from literature programs I am always skeptical, for instance. But like everyone else who tunes into these discussions I'm still awaiting the evidence that the academic study of writing has harmed contemporary poetry in palpable ways. What seems obvious to some just isn't to me. So, like Al Maginnes, I'm eagerly awaiting the specifics, the named names, and so forth. On 3/2/10 8:53 AM, "almaginnes at aol.com" wrote: > I teach in a community college. No creative writing majors here but some of my > students have gone on to major in writing as undergrads and several have > gotten MFA's. I have an MFA from the University of Arkansas. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Heather June Gibbons > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views > > Sent: Tue, Mar 2, 2010 9:50 am > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) > > Agreed, David. These are important facts to acknowledge. > > Show of hand: I teach creative writing to undergraduates, only some of whom > are creative writing majors. And I have an MFA from Iowa. > > -Heather > > Heather June Gibbons > heatherjunegibbons.com > > > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:25 AM, David Graham wrote: >> >> >> I guess my recurrent role in these threads is to note that most schools don't >> have MFA programs, most creative writing instruction in this country happens >> outside of such programs, and that most MFA programs are not Iowa. >> Furthermore, most creative writing instruction does not occur at the graduate >> level. These are facts that the broad-brushers railing about the >> MFA/academic/"official verse culture" ought to at least acknowledge. >> >> Just curious: can we have a show of hands as to how many subscribers to >> NewPo are teachers? Of those, how many teach in an MFA program? >> >> ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 10:23:21 2010 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 09:23:21 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> References: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> Message-ID: I'm a reformed (or retired or retarded) teacher. Never taught (or studied) in an MFA program. Didn't teach "creative writing" much either. Hal follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest collection -- http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 12:25 AM, David Graham wrote: > > > I guess my recurrent role in these threads is to note that most schools > don't have MFA programs, most creative writing instruction in this country > happens outside of such programs, and that most MFA programs are not Iowa. > Furthermore, most creative writing instruction does not occur at the > graduate level. These are facts that the broad-brushers railing about the > MFA/academic/"official verse culture" ought to at least acknowledge. > > Just curious: can we have a show of hands as to how many subscribers to > NewPo are teachers? Of those, how many teach in an MFA program? > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cheekc at muohio.edu Tue Mar 2 10:35:26 2010 From: cheekc at muohio.edu (cris cheek) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 10:35:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: References: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> <4B8CEE76.8010602@opus40.org> Message-ID: i teach at the moment in south-west ohio. at Miami in Oxford. THe English Department that i work in has 3 prongs . . . Literature, Creative Writing, Composition and Rhetoric. There are about 350 creative writing majors, 340 literature, under 50 composition and rhetoric. We do not offer an MFA, but we do have an MA. This very week Lee Ann Brown is visiting teaching the graduate poetry sprint workshop (previous visitors for this in the past few years have included Bernadette Mayer, Rae Armantrout, Trevor Joyce, Tom Raworth and myself . . .). We have a small cohort of graduate poetry students (8), about twice that many in fiction and about that many in creative non-fiction. Anyway so we have a large number of people taking creative writing majors as undergraduates. They have to do a lot of Lit classes, they take both fiction and poetry until their senior year, they take surveys of the field, take introductions to cultural studies and critical theory. Many of the creative writing majors are double majors in other subjects of study . . . psychology, interactive media studies, communication and philosophy are all popular combos . . . We host quite a lot of readings both on and off campus. We have a great network of local poets, South (West) Ohio Poets . . . S (W) O P on facebook, and we had a reading to celebrate this emergent group last November that included 24 poets (Tyrone Williams, Dana Ward and Norman Finkelstein, Arjanil Mukherjee amongst them) This spring we will host post_moot 2 and the list of participants incoming right now is as follows: Stan Apps, Oana Avasilichioaei, Mike Basinski, Holly Bass, John M. Bennett, Black Took Collective, Sean Bonney, Tammy Brown, Mairead Byrne, Sh? Cage, cris cheek, Daniel Citro, Alejandro Crawford, Maria Damon, Ian Davidson, Ryan Downey, Alan Golding, Nada Gordon, K. Lorraine Graham, Duriel Harris, Carla Harryman, Jeff Hilson, Jen, Hofer, William R. Howe, Jade Hudson, Christine Hume, Peter Jaeger, Mark Jeffery, Bonnie Jones, Pierre Joris, Adeena Karasick, Brian Kincaid, Rodney Koenecke, Jose Luna, Dawn Lundy-Martin, Mel Nichols, Hoa Nguyen, Chris Mann, Monica Mody, K. Silem Mohammad, Laura Moriarty, Judd Morrissey, Erin Moure, Tom Orange, Jessica Ponto, Luke Roberts, Jaime Robles, Stephen Rodefer, Ric Royer, Ken Rumble, Linda Russo, Lisa Samuels, Standard Schaefer, Jonathan Skinner, Danny Snelson, Todd Seabrook, Jessica Smith, Rod Smith, Kate Sopko, Fiona Templeton, Rodrigo Toscano, Laurence Upton, Chris Vitiello, Catherine Wagner, Mark Wallace, Dana Ward, Barrett Watten, Brian Whitener, Steve Willey, Tyrone Williams, Ronaldo Wilson i dunno. i think we have something interesting going on. We also have the MESHWORKS online archive of videotaped readings that is slowly growing into a serious resource . . . SOME of our undergraduate go on to graduate programs and some of our MA students go on into MFA and PhD programs. I'd say the percentage that do is about 20-30%. Some of those who g on in academic pursuits want to teach (some in schools and some in colleges and universities) and some are developing a serious practice and some flip across into Literature. Some hang about and get jobs and carry on writing poetry, some go into publishing, some disappear in the bottle and some just get on with their lives but carrying an interest in poetry with them wherever they wander. One example of the university path might be Justin Katko who took a BA/MA here before going to do electronic literature at Brown and is now in Cambridge (UK) writing a PhD on Edward Dorn. The latter pursuit can hardly be seen as a clear path to academic employment in the current climate. He is following an intense passion. He is a young poet producing exciting work both on and off the page. He is an energetic organiser of events and he is a fine publisher of mostly samizdat poetry books. just my three cents worth xxx cc On Mar 2, 2010, at 9:25 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Are your students creative writing majors? > > At 05:54 AM 3/2/2010, you wrote: >> One hand up. I teach on an undergraduate level, have never taught >> in a MFA program, have taught undergraduate creative writing >> courses, generally believe that their purpose is to expose >> students to a different way of approaching, considering and >> experiencing literature, not as an apprenticeship for a >> professional career. >> >> David Graham wrote: >>> >>> >>> I guess my recurrent role in these threads is to note that most >>> schools don't have MFA programs, most creative writing >>> instruction in this country happens outside of such programs, and >>> that most MFA programs are not Iowa. Furthermore, most creative >>> writing instruction does not occur at the graduate level. These >>> are facts that the broad-brushers railing about the MFA/ >>> academic/"official verse culture" ought to at least acknowledge. >>> >>> Just curious: can we have a show of hands as to how many >>> subscribers to NewPo are teachers? Of those, how many teach in >>> an MFA program? >>> >>> >>> ======================================== >>> David Graham >>> grahamd at ripon.edu < mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu> >>> >>> Home Page: >>> http://web.me.com/drjazz >>> >>> Poetry Library: >>> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >>> ========================================== >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ---- >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> -- >> Tad Richards >> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >> >> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry > (University of California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book > of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so > effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the > United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems > in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in > The Nation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cvoisine at nmsu.edu Tue Mar 2 10:37:37 2010 From: cvoisine at nmsu.edu (Connie Voisine) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 08:37:37 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> References: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <36cb1de81003020737o4d26284cs36ac64fa89c31e2a@mail.gmail.com> i direct and teach in an mfa program. we also have a great undergraduate program (a new major). i have a great time and so do my students--it's a temporary poetry cult for them, for me year in and year out. even if they don't continue writing (which happens more than not), their connection to poetry was nurtured and can provide a lifetime of pleasure. reading (and writing) saved my life (no irony at all). connie On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 11:25 PM, David Graham wrote: > > > I guess my recurrent role in these threads is to note that most schools > don't have MFA programs, most creative writing instruction in this country > happens outside of such programs, and that most MFA programs are not Iowa. > ?Furthermore, most creative writing instruction does not occur at the > graduate level. ?These are facts that the broad-brushers railing about the > MFA/academic/"official verse culture" ought to at least acknowledge. > Just curious: ?can we have a show of hands as to how many subscribers to > NewPo are teachers? ?Of those, how many teach in an MFA program? > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Connie Voisine Associate Professor of English New Mexico State University cvoisine at nmsu.edu 575-646-2027 From chris at chrislott.org Tue Mar 2 11:01:15 2010 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 07:01:15 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: References: <8CC882F40B93828-1B04-4A65@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 6:17 AM, David Graham wrote: > So, like Al > Maginnes, I'm eagerly awaiting the specifics, the named names, and so forth. I would too, but I'm not holding my breath... c From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 11:08:20 2010 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 11:08:20 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: References: <8CC882F40B93828-1B04-4A65@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <731bb17a1003020808l4a46b5a7i85f2dfc90ec04564@mail.gmail.com> The "MFA is hurting poetry" argument is old, trite, and frankly banal, if you ask me. I don't hear these same arguments about academic visual art or music programs, though I'm sure that there are some philistines in the world who would make such arguments. I don't teach in an MFA program, and I don't have an MFA, although I am a student (ABD) in the creative writing program (Ph.D) at the University of Georgia. Like Al, I teach at what amounts to a community college. I rarely teach creative writing; my load is made up, primarily, of composition and survey literature courses. I have used creative writing in the classroom as an attempt to open up discussions: I've examples of list/catalog poetry as a way to teach my writers how to use concrete, specific examples in their essays. Very few of my students will go on to study English; very few of those will focus on creative writing. Right now, I have *one *student who's interested in pursuing creative writing in his advanced course work. Jeff Newberry On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Chris Lott wrote: > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 6:17 AM, David Graham wrote: > > So, like Al > > Maginnes, I'm eagerly awaiting the specifics, the named names, and so > forth. > > I would too, but I'm not holding my breath... > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Mar 2 11:56:56 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 11:56:56 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1003020808l4a46b5a7i85f2dfc90ec04564@mail.gmail.co m> References: <8CC882F40B93828-1B04-4A65@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> <731bb17a1003020808l4a46b5a7i85f2dfc90ec04564@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Visual artists and composers have always required long periods of study, and very few have managed to learn what they need to pursue their art without the help of teachers. That those teachers now function largely within an academic setting is a relatively new and minor change. The technical information needed is still too large for all but a very few to learn what they have to do merely by looking at pictures or listening to music. This isn't true of poetry or literature in general. When renaissance visual artists were apprenticing in the studios of masters a vibrant and revolutionary literature was being produced by writers who had the usual training that literate folks had, which sometimes included a bit of poetry writing and almost always included rhetoric. They were considered polite accomplishments but also training in both thought and persuasion, and if translated into modern terms they would occupy places in high school or college curricula. Those parts of the curricula disappeared in subsequent periods, with no apparent effect on the willingness to produce or the quality of the writing. The difference is that we all of us have and practice constantly the use of language, whereas few of us do the same with applying paint to canvas, etc, or writing counterpoint. The tools to build on are already there. Even if one has built a satisfying life in Creative Writing and it makes one's students happy it would seem incredible not to ask oneself from time to time what, other than the provision of a pleasant life for some and entertainment for others, the purpose of an academic field, with all the infrastructure of an industry, that nobody ever thought was needed before, accomplishes and why such an astonishing thing happened. To question in this manner is no more banal than questioning any other assumptions. My own feeling is that there's nothing harmful about creative writing courses for undergraduates, as long is they're limited to one or two during a four year program, and as such it hardly matters what department their taught under, and I certainly understand the utility for those who want to study, say, the renaissance, trying their hand at writing a few sonnets. I frankly don't understand why there are majors in creative writing as opposed to majors in literature with a couple of creative writing electives. I also don't much care if there are institutions granting MFAs. Most of my worries about the consequences for the art and for education would be eliminated if a requirement for entry were that one not be under 40. That's not a joke. My worries are not mitigated by reports of the pleasures of a life in Creative Writing or of the disparate uses people have made of their degrees. I am concerned about the bureaucratization of the field. I think it's already had an impact, as how could it not? Grades, peer support, publication in journals by people with similar training, militate towards writing acceptable poetry. I'm aware that there are several kinds of acceptable poetry, but I think the same process is going on in each. And there's more than a whiff of the inbred in an industry that trains and certifies, and staffs publishing houses and journals that in turn provide the publishing credits to help keep the circle going. I'm not surprised that those living among the trees can't always see the forest. Asking those skeptical of the enterprise to list the poets they find inconsequential at best is more than a little unfair. Open almost any journal and choose at random. But if I, for instance, were to brand a list of younger writers (the eminences are of course more criticizable because less impacted by criticism) as inconsequential would be in many cases to insult people I associate with and like. And I simply won't do so in a public forum. My skepticism of the enterprise is partly a matter of my age--I predate the growth of Creative Writing from a few random outposts and a few elective courses to its present industrial status. It's also fed by my awareness of the vibrancy of literature in countries where no such industry exists and in our own countries before it did. That said, many of my closest friends, and poets I greatly admire, teach or taught creative writing for a living. What dissent there is doesn't threaten their livelihoods, the field is too well established, too big to let fail. Because of my friends I have a degree of ambivalence about what could or should be done. I'm not interested in the food being taken from the mouths of anybody's children. Armand Schwerner, who taught literature, used to say that the poet had an accidental curriculum. Very little of it can be taught within college walls. What's happening, on a micro level, is a discouraging of risk taking, in life certainly, but also in writing. Best, Mark At 11:08 AM 3/2/2010, you wrote: >The "MFA is hurting poetry" argument is old, trite, and frankly >banal, if you ask me. I don't hear these same arguments about >academic visual art or music programs, though I'm sure that there >are some philistines in the world who would make such arguments. > >I don't teach in an MFA program, and I don't have an MFA, although I >am a student (ABD) in the creative writing program (Ph.D) at the >University of Georgia. Like Al, I teach at what amounts to a >community college. I rarely teach creative writing; my load is >made up, primarily, of composition and survey literature courses. I >have used creative writing in the classroom as an attempt to open up >discussions: I've examples of list/catalog poetry as a way to teach >my writers how to use concrete, specific examples in their essays. > >Very few of my students will go on to study English; very few of >those will focus on creative writing. Right now, I have one student >who's interested in pursuing creative writing in his advanced course work. > >Jeff Newberry > > >On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Chris Lott ><chris at chrislott.org> wrote: >On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 6:17 AM, David Graham ><grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote: > > So, like Al > > Maginnes, I'm eagerly awaiting the specifics, the named names, > and so forth. > >I would too, but I'm not holding my breath... > >c >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > >-- >You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; >and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular >people and experience, from which each according to his own >immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From acgold01 at louisville.edu Tue Mar 2 11:57:34 2010 From: acgold01 at louisville.edu (Alan C Golding) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 11:57:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound Message-ID: <4B8CFD2D.AC48.0004.0@gwise.louisville.edu> "Ignorant [people] of genius are constantly rediscovering 'laws' of art which the academics had mislaid or hidden." "There is one quality which unites all great and perdurable writers, you don't NEED schools and colleges to keep 'em alive. Put them out of the curriculum, lay them in the dust of libraries, and once in every so often a chance reader, unsubsidized and unbribed, will dig them up again, put them in the light again, without asking favours." "The great savants ignore, quite often, the idiocies of the ruck of the teaching profession." -- Ezra Pound _The ABC of Reading_ Not to demur from, exactly, but to supplement or complicate Crisman's introduction of Pound into the conversation: Pound spent much of his career thinking about, addressing and hoping to transform the academy, even if that address takes the form of decades-worth of railing. From his earliest essays on (see "Raphaelite Latin") he's theorizing the (possible) place of the creative writer in teaching institutions. ABC of Reading is a textbook, first published in the US by a university press, though admittedly probably not as a realistic intervention in the textbook market. One can read Pound as a pedagogical poet who wanted to change pedagogical institutions. His rhetoric was oppositional, but he also liked (tried?) to imagine the artist-academy boundaries that he invoked as porous. Alan Teacher, of undergrads and grads, not of creative writing, at an institution with a newly established CW minor but no CW major, and with an "MA with creative thesis" option at the grad level but no MFA. From bircumplus at yahoo.co.uk Tue Mar 2 12:31:31 2010 From: bircumplus at yahoo.co.uk (David Bircumshaw) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 17:31:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: <36cb1de81003020737o4d26284cs36ac64fa89c31e2a@mail.gmail.com> References: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> <36cb1de81003020737o4d26284cs36ac64fa89c31e2a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <535842.31885.qm@web28504.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Left school at 16. Education: local and city libraries. Later own bought books. Have never taught professionally. ?David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skip at louisiana.edu Tue Mar 2 12:43:18 2010 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 11:43:18 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound In-Reply-To: <4B8CFD2D.AC48.0004.0@gwise.louisville.edu> Message-ID: Are his ideal scholars who would inform the state (in the person of Malatesta, Mussolini, etc.) and reintroduce the classics divorced from the academy (like Kung)? I cannot remember. -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Alan C Golding Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 10:58 AM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound "Ignorant [people] of genius are constantly rediscovering 'laws' of art which the academics had mislaid or hidden." "There is one quality which unites all great and perdurable writers, you don't NEED schools and colleges to keep 'em alive. Put them out of the curriculum, lay them in the dust of libraries, and once in every so often a chance reader, unsubsidized and unbribed, will dig them up again, put them in the light again, without asking favours." "The great savants ignore, quite often, the idiocies of the ruck of the teaching profession." -- Ezra Pound _The ABC of Reading_ Not to demur from, exactly, but to supplement or complicate Crisman's introduction of Pound into the conversation: Pound spent much of his career thinking about, addressing and hoping to transform the academy, even if that address takes the form of decades-worth of railing. From his earliest essays on (see "Raphaelite Latin") he's theorizing the (possible) place of the creative writer in teaching institutions. ABC of Reading is a textbook, first published in the US by a university press, though admittedly probably not as a realistic intervention in the textbook market. One can read Pound as a pedagogical poet who wanted to change pedagogical institutions. His rhetoric was oppositional, but he also liked (tried?) to imagine the artist-academy boundaries that he invoked as porous. Alan Teacher, of undergrads and grads, not of creative writing, at an institution with a newly established CW minor but no CW major, and with an "MA with creative thesis" option at the grad level but no MFA. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From reneea at verizon.net Tue Mar 2 12:50:55 2010 From: reneea at verizon.net (Renee Ashley) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 12:50:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) References: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4772FA740BA14CF48302AE410EFF8F0A@Barnette> I teach in an MFA program. Fairleigh Dickinson Univ., NJ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From reneea at verizon.net Tue Mar 2 12:54:55 2010 From: reneea at verizon.net (Renee Ashley) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 12:54:55 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place References: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu><8CC86B9EC8F3F94-47DC-1B178@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com><648208b61002281047w262b5ee1p3f0c44e8213eccb@mail.gmail.com><4b65c2d71002281054g9f84fcbo2b3b8d91e2bc815d@mail.gmail.com><4b65c2d71002281133ue494a5au214bda26599ca09f@mail.gmail.com><8CC86E79962E54D-47DC-1EF93@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <8CC86F8DE4DCF70-47DC-20A94@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <7165C324EFA24FF585B908CF11BC4590@Barnette> The MA isn't considered a terminal degree. The MFA is. So not much weight. ----- Original Message ----- From: jforjames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 8:51 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place Does the straight MA in English carry an weight? Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cvoisine at nmsu.edu Tue Mar 2 13:08:18 2010 From: cvoisine at nmsu.edu (Connie Voisine) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 11:08:18 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: <4772FA740BA14CF48302AE410EFF8F0A@Barnette> References: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> <4772FA740BA14CF48302AE410EFF8F0A@Barnette> Message-ID: <36cb1de81003021008n54aaaca2x4806fe5b170d222a@mail.gmail.com> i think love and pleasure are worth a lot in my writing life. the way i see it--english studies has been professionalized in such a way that even undergraduate students are more involved in developing their "readings" (marx, feminist, post-structuralist) or the cultural studies angle on literature (pulp fiction, victorian women's magazines, etc.) that most of the teaching of actual poems happens in CW classes. in cw classes this semester everything from the illiad to teresa cha. I teach more books per class than most literature professors i know. and i can't assume that english majors (lit majors) know what modernism is. enough of this conversation for me. c -- Connie Voisine Associate Professor of English New Mexico State University cvoisine at nmsu.edu 575-646-2027 From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Mar 2 13:17:39 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 13:17:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: References: <8CC882F40B93828-1B04-4A65@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com><731bb17a1003020808l4a46b5a7i85f2dfc90ec04564@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: My hand up (tacked on to Mark's post, partly because I completely (or mostly) agree with what he said. Formally my teaching was lit. generally and Renaissance lit specifically, at one point organising an introductory course in *reading poetry, since undergraduates were arriving from highschool apparently only having read two First World War Poets and one Metaphysical Poet. I taught exactly one course on creative writing, at the undergraduate level, for one semester, filling in (reluctantly) for a colleague on exchange in America (though I was also, throughout, the co-examination marker for the coursework submitted for that course). [Though this was also the point when I became interested in translating poetry, on the lines of, "Don't ask anyone to do anything you haven't at least tried to do yourself," so I ended up translating a poem by Lorca, and a couple of years later supervising a final year undergraduate dissertation by a student which comprised a long collection of his Lorca translations. Bloody good they were, too.] That's the official side. Unofficially, I ran groups, helped students produce magazines, talked my head off, tried to be generally supportive, all the usual stuff that -- whine whine -- if you have an MFA, you get paid for doing, and if you don't, you have to do it for nothing in your spare time. Actually, that's only partly a joke -- the career stream I was in, teaching about literature rather than teaching how to do it (sort of) is I think the *only job where writing poetry is actually counterproductive in career terms -- even bank managers are allowed to do it. As a hobby. But the third (or was it the sixth or seventh?) time I got hit with the question, first of all when I was applying for jobs and later on when I was before a promotion review committee or something like that, "Do you find that writing poetry *interferes with your teaching?" I kid you not, that was the word used every miserable time -- "interferes". I began to get the sense that someone was trying to tell me something. Basically, the job I was doing, teaching English in a (UK) university, it would have been better for my career prospects if the time I spent writing poetry, I'd devoted to playing golf. Come to think of it, if I'd played golf rather than written poetry, I'd have been *much better off. And don't even *start me on how the "refereed journal" criterion for the acceptabilty of academic articles kinda sorta disadvantages anyone who tends to write exactly the same thing, but publish it in a poetry magazine. My tuppence worth. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) Visual artists and composers have always required long periods of study, and very few have managed to learn what they need to pursue their art without the help of teachers. That those teachers now function largely within an academic setting is a relatively new and minor change. The technical information needed is still too large for all but a very few to learn what they have to do merely by looking at pictures or listening to music. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 13:20:15 2010 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 13:20:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <4B8C4566.8000803@nut-n-but.net> References: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu> <4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com> <71A9B8920EF140D78E0EA96B01F79981@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C4566.8000803@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <731bb17a1003021020n3644000fx19e8e05377611ad6@mail.gmail.com> "Threatens" is not the same as "bores to death," Bob. Of course, you're going to draw your own conclusions, as you are wont to do. Jeff Newberry On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 5:53 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > The first step to any solution is a list of schools of poetry. > > I know, Jeff, I keep saying this, but I haven't bothered to for a long time > since I know the idea threatens most poets. Gotta do it at least once every > few years, though. > > --Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 13:22:13 2010 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 13:22:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> Teaching on a university level requires a terminal degree, Bob. If you want to be angry, at least be angry at the right people. Jeff Newberry, Establishment Drone On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > I also notice that every post to New-Poetry or elsewhere that I've seen > that announces some position at a college for a teacher of any kind of > creative writing requires an MFA, if not a Ph.D. > --Bob > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skip at louisiana.edu Tue Mar 2 13:36:45 2010 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 12:36:45 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1003021020n3644000fx19e8e05377611ad6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1AC57C3B84F0461FBD8BB87C25C3EE0E@win.louisiana.edu> The workshop is not the problem so much as the unthinking assumptions and attitudes it tends to pass along. E.g.: "Write what you know" might have some meaning but those who would say this, in my experience, commonly only mean write only certain things that you assume you know. (How often do we see recalcitrant students, committee meetings, shit-eating colleagues, or even television in such poetry. Perhaps more today than twenty years ago but today it's somewhat fashionable today.) Or the believe that writing is a career which should service one well if, after networking and sounding a certain way you can get a position where you can teach others to write what they think they know. Then there is something one might think of as a "period style" . . actually several (we're a big country). (Better go now respond to the young creative writers in an undergraduate class. Been teaching college for almost three decades.) -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff Newberry Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 12:20 PM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place "Threatens" is not the same as "bores to death," Bob. Of course, you're going to draw your own conclusions, as you are wont to do. Jeff Newberry On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 5:53 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: The first step to any solution is a list of schools of poetry. I know, Jeff, I keep saying this, but I haven't bothered to for a long time since I know the idea threatens most poets. Gotta do it at least once every few years, though. --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 13:43:29 2010 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 12:43:29 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Sometimes it does, Jeff. I thought at the university level for forty years without one. Hal follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest collection -- http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 12:22 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > Teaching on a university level requires a terminal degree, Bob. > > If you want to be angry, at least be angry at the right people. > > Jeff Newberry, Establishment Drone > > On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> >> >> I also notice that every post to New-Poetry or elsewhere that I've seen >> that announces some position at a college for a teacher of any kind of >> creative writing requires an MFA, if not a Ph.D. >> --Bob >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > > -- > You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and > that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and > experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar > needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Tue Mar 2 13:59:03 2010 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 09:59:03 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 9:22 AM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > Teaching on a university level requires a terminal degree, Bob. That might be at least as interesting to discuss. Why should a terminal degree be necessary? And while we're at it, how about dispensing with tenure too. c From junction at earthlink.net Tue Mar 2 14:06:22 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 14:06:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: References: <8CC882F40B93828-1B04-4A65@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> <731bb17a1003020808l4a46b5a7i85f2dfc90ec04564@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: God knows I'm not suggesting that there was a good old days in English departments, tho valuing work in what they felt was their assignment probably wasn't entirely crazy. Here's an anecdote. When I was living in Tucson I was asked to teach a poetry course in the U of Arizona extension program. I love teaching adults. The Creative Writing people were stuck with too few teachers for the intro poetry course, required of all CW prospects. So they told their meynie that my course would count. Which led me to talk with the guy who supervised the entry-level stuff in the department. I told him that I was going to run my class as half didactic (reading and discussing other people's work) and I didn't want my students under a disadvantage, so it would be good to know what the course usually contained. Do what you want, he told me. I persisted. I listed a half dozen poets, Donne, Blake, Wordsworth, I forget the others, from the canon. He stopped me. "We don't have them read older poets. They got that in high school." Stunning information. I mean, in Arizona? OK, so I said how about Olson Creeley etc. Wrong again. "We tend towards more substantial poets." "So what does get taught in this course." "We tend to emphasize (look of faraway rrverence) The American Voice." Aha. So what is that? "You know, Bishop, Lowell, Berrymen, Plath..." I took his advice and taught what I wanted. I won't pretend this is typical, but I haven't been astounded by the depth of knowledge of young poets who've gone through the system in anything but a slice of their contemporaries and near contemporaries and critical theory. Best, Mark (a son of Ben) At 01:17 PM 3/2/2010, you wrote: >My hand up (tacked on to Mark's post, partly because I completely >(or mostly) agree with what he said. > >Formally my teaching was lit. generally and Renaissance lit >specifically, at one point organising an introductory course in >*reading poetry, since undergraduates were arriving from highschool >apparently only having read two First World War Poets and one >Metaphysical Poet. > >I taught exactly one course on creative writing, at the >undergraduate level, for one semester, filling in (reluctantly) for >a colleague on exchange in America (though I was also, throughout, >the co-examination marker for the coursework submitted for that course). > >[Though this was also the point when I became interested in >translating poetry, on the lines of, "Don't ask anyone to do >anything you haven't at least tried to do yourself," so I ended up >translating a poem by Lorca, and a couple of years later supervising >a final year undergraduate dissertation by a student which comprised >a long collection of his Lorca translations. Bloody good they were, too.] > >That's the official side. Unofficially, I ran groups, helped >students produce magazines, talked my head off, tried to be >generally supportive, all the usual stuff that -- whine whine -- if >you have an MFA, you get paid for doing, and if you don't, you have >to do it for nothing in your spare time. > >Actually, that's only partly a joke -- the career stream I was in, >teaching about literature rather than teaching how to do it (sort >of) is I think the *only job where writing poetry is actually >counterproductive in career terms -- even bank managers are allowed >to do it. As a hobby. > >But the third (or was it the sixth or seventh?) time I got hit with >the question, first of all when I was applying for jobs and later on >when I was before a promotion review committee or something like >that, "Do you find that writing poetry *interferes with your teaching?" > >I kid you not, that was the word used every miserable time -- >"interferes". I began to get the sense that someone was trying to >tell me something. > >Basically, the job I was doing, teaching English in a (UK) >university, it would have been better for my career prospects if the >time I spent writing poetry, I'd devoted to playing golf. Come to >think of it, if I'd played golf rather than written poetry, I'd have >been *much better off. > >And don't even *start me on how the "refereed journal" criterion for >the acceptabilty of academic articles kinda sorta disadvantages >anyone who tends to write exactly the same thing, but publish it in >a poetry magazine. > >My tuppence worth. > >Robin >----- Original Message ----- >From: Mark Weiss >To: NewPoetry: Contemporary >Poetry News &Views >Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 11:56 AM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) > >Visual artists and composers have always required long periods of >study, and very few have managed to learn what they need to pursue >their art without the help of teachers. That those teachers now >function largely within an academic setting is a relatively new and >minor change. The technical information needed is still too large >for all but a very few to learn what they have to do merely by >looking at pictures or listening to music. > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Tue Mar 2 14:22:09 2010 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 10:22:09 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: References: <8CC882F40B93828-1B04-4A65@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> <731bb17a1003020808l4a46b5a7i85f2dfc90ec04564@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Mark: I dropped out of an MFA program because I couldn't stand most of the other students. I never finished my MA because the lit theory was killing (and succeeded) something vital in my creative psychology. So,. for those of us who aren't in such a program and who've suffered from the deficient secondary schooling also being complained about, what do you recommend? I once asked Ron Silliman, after reading yet another complain about the deficiencies of the SoQ and the anthologies used in school, etc... what his recommended studies would be. Who should we read? What does his version of history look like outside of the reactionary blogging? Seems to me if 1/4 of the energy spent beating up MFA programs (in general, not just here and not your participation in this thread in particular) were spent sharing specifics to help some of us raised in the mainstream find our way to the best, most representative, most historically interesting stuff, the net positive effect would be much greater. c From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Tue Mar 2 14:37:00 2010 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 14:37:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> Jeff, Something about the phrase "terminal degree".....the "terminal" part.....gives pause. Admittedly, I've never used the expression, nor, if I'd heard it, paid attention, but it becomes ominous in such a discussion as this. Trying to imagine who the right people are that Bob should be angry with; I should get better at score-carding. Judy the wrong person to get angry with On 2 March 2010 13:22, Jeff Newberry wrote: > Teaching on a university level requires a terminal degree, Bob. > > If you want to be angry, at least be angry at the right people. > > Jeff Newberry, Establishment Drone > > > On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> >> >> I also notice that every post to New-Poetry or elsewhere that I've seen >> that announces some position at a college for a teacher of any kind of >> creative writing requires an MFA, if not a Ph.D. >> --Bob >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > > -- > You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and > that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and > experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar > needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 14:50:51 2010 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 14:50:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <731bb17a1003021150q5f815e19odd29799564326b0b@mail.gmail.com> Judy, I'm very familiar with the term. A quick scan of any academic job list will show multiple uses: try the Chronicle or HigherEdJobs or even the AWP job list. "Terminal" merely means "highest." There's nothing to read into. In this case, a cigar is just a cigar. These days, most academic jobs require a terminal degree, across the board, from the humanities to the hard sciences--particularly if you're teaching full-time at the university level. Sometimes, as Hal pointed out, life experience takes the place of a degree. My problem with this whole "MFA is bad" business is that it implies a bad guy: anyone who writes and/or publishes in primarily academic circles is a bad guy. These bad guys are then dismissed and painted with a broad brush as "gate keepers" who want to keep the "status quo." I've been involved in colleges and universities all of my adult life. I've not met this small-minded stereotype. Most of the teachers and colleagues I've had have been open minded about all kinds of poetry. One workshop revolved around "ruining" a text. The class produced all kinds of wonderful pieces: a friend of mine wrote some homophonic translations of Rilke. Another student photocopied sacred texts on top of one another time and again, making an odd kind of sacred palimpsest. And this experience is only of the myriad I had. Bob and I are sparring partners from way back. He likes to paint with a broad brush. I like to point out that fact. I've got nothing against old Bob. In fact, I think some of his mathemaku are really interesting. I've used them in a couple of different classes that I've taught. If you want to score card, try to score how often these kinds of discussions lead to any fruitful or useful observation. I can guess what your total will be. Jeff Establishment Drone On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 2:37 PM, Judy Prince wrote: > Jeff, > > Something about the phrase "terminal degree".....the "terminal" > part.....gives pause. Admittedly, I've never used the expression, nor, if > I'd heard it, paid attention, but it becomes ominous in such a discussion as > this. > > Trying to imagine who the right people are that Bob should be angry with; I > should get better at score-carding. > > Judy the wrong person to get angry with > > > > On 2 March 2010 13:22, Jeff Newberry wrote: > >> Teaching on a university level requires a terminal degree, Bob. >> >> If you want to be angry, at least be angry at the right people. >> >> Jeff Newberry, Establishment Drone >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> I also notice that every post to New-Poetry or elsewhere that I've seen >>> that announces some position at a college for a teacher of any kind of >>> creative writing requires an MFA, if not a Ph.D. >>> --Bob >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and >> that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and >> experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar >> needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html > > http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ > > "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skip at louisiana.edu Tue Mar 2 14:57:22 2010 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 13:57:22 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <99349A832BB4488FBE2211A3C9B4F430@win.louisiana.edu> Chris, One suggestion might be: How about writing what you don't know? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 15:00:42 2010 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 14:00:42 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: That gives you pause? Think about the US airbase in Okinawa that features a Terminal Nursery. Hal follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest collection -- http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Judy Prince wrote: > Jeff, > > Something about the phrase "terminal degree".....the "terminal" > part.....gives pause. Admittedly, I've never used the expression, nor, if > I'd heard it, paid attention, but it becomes ominous in such a discussion as > this. > > Trying to imagine who the right people are that Bob should be angry with; I > should get better at score-carding. > > Judy the wrong person to get angry with > > > > On 2 March 2010 13:22, Jeff Newberry wrote: > >> Teaching on a university level requires a terminal degree, Bob. >> >> If you want to be angry, at least be angry at the right people. >> >> Jeff Newberry, Establishment Drone >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> I also notice that every post to New-Poetry or elsewhere that I've seen >>> that announces some position at a college for a teacher of any kind of >>> creative writing requires an MFA, if not a Ph.D. >>> --Bob >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and >> that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and >> experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar >> needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html > > http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ > > "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 15:02:28 2010 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 14:02:28 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1003021150q5f815e19odd29799564326b0b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a1003021150q5f815e19odd29799564326b0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I never got a job because of "life experience" as far as I know. Besides, experience is usually a lousy teacher. Hal follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest collection -- http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > Judy, > > I'm very familiar with the term. A quick scan of any academic job list > will show multiple uses: try the Chronicle or HigherEdJobs or even the AWP > job list. "Terminal" merely means "highest." There's nothing to read > into. In this case, a cigar is just a cigar. These days, most academic > jobs require a terminal degree, across the board, from the humanities to the > hard sciences--particularly if you're teaching full-time at the university > level. Sometimes, as Hal pointed out, life experience takes the place of a > degree. > > My problem with this whole "MFA is bad" business is that it implies a bad > guy: anyone who writes and/or publishes in primarily academic circles is a > bad guy. These bad guys are then dismissed and painted with a broad brush > as "gate keepers" who want to keep the "status quo." I've been involved in > colleges and universities all of my adult life. I've not met this > small-minded stereotype. Most of the teachers and colleagues I've had have > been open minded about all kinds of poetry. One workshop revolved around > "ruining" a text. The class produced all kinds of wonderful pieces: a > friend of mine wrote some homophonic translations of Rilke. Another student > photocopied sacred texts on top of one another time and again, making an odd > kind of sacred palimpsest. And this experience is only of the myriad I > had. > > Bob and I are sparring partners from way back. He likes to paint with a > broad brush. I like to point out that fact. I've got nothing against old > Bob. In fact, I think some of his mathemaku are really interesting. I've > used them in a couple of different classes that I've taught. > > If you want to score card, try to score how often these kinds of > discussions lead to any fruitful or useful observation. I can guess what > your total will be. > > Jeff > Establishment Drone > > > > > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 2:37 PM, Judy Prince wrote: > >> Jeff, >> >> Something about the phrase "terminal degree".....the "terminal" >> part.....gives pause. Admittedly, I've never used the expression, nor, if >> I'd heard it, paid attention, but it becomes ominous in such a discussion as >> this. >> >> Trying to imagine who the right people are that Bob should be angry with; >> I should get better at score-carding. >> >> Judy the wrong person to get angry with >> >> >> >> On 2 March 2010 13:22, Jeff Newberry wrote: >> >>> Teaching on a university level requires a terminal degree, Bob. >>> >>> If you want to be angry, at least be angry at the right people. >>> >>> Jeff Newberry, Establishment Drone >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I also notice that every post to New-Poetry or elsewhere that I've seen >>>> that announces some position at a college for a teacher of any kind of >>>> creative writing requires an MFA, if not a Ph.D. >>>> --Bob >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and >>> that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and >>> experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar >>> needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html >> >> http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ >> >> "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and > that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and > experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar > needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 15:08:39 2010 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 12:08:39 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: References: <8CC882F40B93828-1B04-4A65@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> <731bb17a1003020808l4a46b5a7i85f2dfc90ec04564@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I got my MFA before there was any critical theory involved, when it was discouraged in fact, and took all my theory in the English and Literature departments. "Voice" was the big thing to find and develop. It is still very much emphasized by, IMO, utterly the worst writers ever. So, there, Robin: we can't name names front channel if we do want to be in the system, but for me -- look for poets who talk about voice -- and find poets that aren't very bright. I was 23; I had been a Literary Writing major undergrad (it was actually my secondary major). I also taught a "reading poetry" course to mostly adult undergrads a few times. I don't think providing a single reading list to a group in a workshop is helpful. I think each person needs to find her own, to learn to guess what they need to learn, to learn how to make reading lists. This is why anthologies are evil. But, the days of anthologies are nearly over. Admittedly, I have always made reading lists for myself, by asking people what they liked, thought was important, etc. In workshops, I generally have reading/mini lecture that's all from the public domain/fair use. But, "all poetry and text art anywhere or all time" is a pretty huge thing, so I tend to pick 18 weeks of things that are related in some way. Then I try to relate the works that week to each other, and to the reading, even if it's "hey, this is completely different." I never teach the same writers together twice (even in lit classes). To workshops, I just bring in tons of books, and list names, schools, time periods at people. You wrote this, that's cool, it has got this aspect, have you read this and this and this? Check it out, let me know what you think. Here's my copy, return it. And I do this in class so that people who really are collecting reading recs can write stuff down too, and so everyone sees you have to read LOTS and LOTS, buy TONS of books and journals, not just a few "thin volumes." If you have a "smart classroom," you can just put a punch of names and links up right then, and everyone has it. This does tend to drive some people nuts because there's no right and wrong, no items of knowledge that I will impart to them for a small fee. The benefit is that at the end of the term, you have a bunch of writers who are writing completely differently, coming from and going to different traditions, and who feel encouraged. You can't make people have talent, but you can force them to be creative in their approach and practice, and to develop a personal taste. -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 15:20:35 2010 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 15:20:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a1003021150q5f815e19odd29799564326b0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <731bb17a1003021220g5b8cf5e6g518694d22d40d30d@mail.gmail.com> Sorry, Hal. I must have misread your previous message. Mea culpa. Jeff On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 3:02 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > I never got a job because of "life experience" as far as I know. > > Besides, experience is usually a lousy teacher. > > Hal > > follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest > collection -- > > http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > >> Judy, >> >> I'm very familiar with the term. A quick scan of any academic job list >> will show multiple uses: try the Chronicle or HigherEdJobs or even the AWP >> job list. "Terminal" merely means "highest." There's nothing to read >> into. In this case, a cigar is just a cigar. These days, most academic >> jobs require a terminal degree, across the board, from the humanities to the >> hard sciences--particularly if you're teaching full-time at the university >> level. Sometimes, as Hal pointed out, life experience takes the place of a >> degree. >> >> My problem with this whole "MFA is bad" business is that it implies a bad >> guy: anyone who writes and/or publishes in primarily academic circles is a >> bad guy. These bad guys are then dismissed and painted with a broad brush >> as "gate keepers" who want to keep the "status quo." I've been involved in >> colleges and universities all of my adult life. I've not met this >> small-minded stereotype. Most of the teachers and colleagues I've had have >> been open minded about all kinds of poetry. One workshop revolved around >> "ruining" a text. The class produced all kinds of wonderful pieces: a >> friend of mine wrote some homophonic translations of Rilke. Another student >> photocopied sacred texts on top of one another time and again, making an odd >> kind of sacred palimpsest. And this experience is only of the myriad I >> had. >> >> Bob and I are sparring partners from way back. He likes to paint with a >> broad brush. I like to point out that fact. I've got nothing against old >> Bob. In fact, I think some of his mathemaku are really interesting. I've >> used them in a couple of different classes that I've taught. >> >> If you want to score card, try to score how often these kinds of >> discussions lead to any fruitful or useful observation. I can guess what >> your total will be. >> >> Jeff >> Establishment Drone >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 2:37 PM, Judy Prince > > wrote: >> >>> Jeff, >>> >>> Something about the phrase "terminal degree".....the "terminal" >>> part.....gives pause. Admittedly, I've never used the expression, nor, if >>> I'd heard it, paid attention, but it becomes ominous in such a discussion as >>> this. >>> >>> Trying to imagine who the right people are that Bob should be angry with; >>> I should get better at score-carding. >>> >>> Judy the wrong person to get angry with >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2 March 2010 13:22, Jeff Newberry wrote: >>> >>>> Teaching on a university level requires a terminal degree, Bob. >>>> >>>> If you want to be angry, at least be angry at the right people. >>>> >>>> Jeff Newberry, Establishment Drone >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I also notice that every post to New-Poetry or elsewhere that I've seen >>>>> that announces some position at a college for a teacher of any kind of >>>>> creative writing requires an MFA, if not a Ph.D. >>>>> --Bob >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and >>>> that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and >>>> experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar >>>> needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html >>> >>> http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ >>> >>> "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and >> that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and >> experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar >> needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Tue Mar 2 15:23:26 2010 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 15:23:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: References: <8CC882F40B93828-1B04-4A65@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> <731bb17a1003020808l4a46b5a7i85f2dfc90ec04564@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b1003021223o3ec48976j6f6c314b8d518035@mail.gmail.com> Chris, I won't be giving you want you want (specifics about the best, most representative, most historically interesting stuff), but I'll offer my fortuitous life-slice of learning some of what I have needed and wanted, which has come from dear poet friends, all met late in my life. It happens that these friends have been raised and educated, some of them at university, in the UK. Their academic and independent reading, as well as practise, in poetry challenged me. My BA and MA in English Lit and Lang at the U of Michigan were fine, very fine, but I must've needed years to reach a stage of *wanting to* read poems beyond the very few I'd thought worthy----or, rather, wanting to *find* poems I would love to read. My friends' incredible personal libraries; their ability to lovingly quote long passages from so many poems; their assessments and intense discussions about the qualities in various poems and poets; their active friendships with poets and involvement with their works; and their convincing belief that poetry is the highest kind of writing---drove me to learn. I haven't the patience to read all the works that my friends have, and tend to be impulsively judgmental about the poetry I do read, rejecting 99% of it, basking in the 1%. However, I subscribe to several poetry journals, buy poetry pamphlets, constantly read online poetry journals, keep up with the works of poets in many organisations both on the ground and online, and personally seek out poets whose works I find fascinating. Again....and again....I support any benign endeavour that encourages poets to read and write poems. That includes endeavours which are academic as well as non-academic, group and non-group, MFA and CW, at libraries, in pubs, in homes. My primary delight is in *knowing* poets, and that includes you and others on NP, POETRYETC, BritPo, WOMPO, SHAKSPER and various websites and blogs. I seldom agree with anybody about what THE BEST poetry is, but I strongly benefit from and appreciate the debates. Best, Judy On 2 March 2010 14:22, Chris Lott wrote: > Mark: > > I dropped out of an MFA program because I couldn't stand most of the > other students. I never finished my MA because the lit theory was > killing (and succeeded) something vital in my creative psychology. > > So,. for those of us who aren't in such a program and who've suffered > from the deficient secondary schooling also being complained about, > what do you recommend? > > I once asked Ron Silliman, after reading yet another complain about > the deficiencies of the SoQ and the anthologies used in school, etc... > what his recommended studies would be. Who should we read? What does > his version of history look like outside of the reactionary blogging? > > Seems to me if 1/4 of the energy spent beating up MFA programs (in > general, not just here and not your participation in this thread in > particular) were spent sharing specifics to help some of us raised in > the mainstream find our way to the best, most representative, most > historically interesting stuff, the net positive effect would be much > greater. > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Tue Mar 2 15:28:05 2010 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 15:28:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b1003021228s18d1c0capb015ad165c5223c0@mail.gmail.com> YAWK! jbp On 2 March 2010 15:00, Halvard Johnson wrote: > That gives you pause? Think about the US airbase in Okinawa > that features a Terminal Nursery. > > Hal > > follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest > collection -- > > http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Judy Prince wrote: > >> Jeff, >> >> Something about the phrase "terminal degree".....the "terminal" >> part.....gives pause. Admittedly, I've never used the expression, nor, if >> I'd heard it, paid attention, but it becomes ominous in such a discussion as >> this. >> >> Trying to imagine who the right people are that Bob should be angry with; >> I should get better at score-carding. >> >> Judy the wrong person to get angry with >> >> >> >> On 2 March 2010 13:22, Jeff Newberry wrote: >> >>> Teaching on a university level requires a terminal degree, Bob. >>> >>> If you want to be angry, at least be angry at the right people. >>> >>> Jeff Newberry, Establishment Drone >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I also notice that every post to New-Poetry or elsewhere that I've seen >>>> that announces some position at a college for a teacher of any kind of >>>> creative writing requires an MFA, if not a Ph.D. >>>> --Bob >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and >>> that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and >>> experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar >>> needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html >> >> http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ >> >> "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Mar 2 15:35:14 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 15:35:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: References: <8CC882F40B93828-1B04-4A65@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> <731bb17a1003020808l4a46b5a7i85f2dfc90ec04564@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Chris: You'll forgive me if in this context this feels like a trap. If you're serious, I can certainly send you a list b/c, after I ask a couple of questions. I see no reason why the list at large should be curious about what I'd include. On the other hand, if list members wanted to send their own list of the essentials, that might be interesting. I envision it going back to Beowulf and not involving immediate contemporaries. Not for showing off, but what people have actually learned from. A living syllabus. Any takers? An aside. I was asked a similar question once. I had taught the senior-level poetry workshop for majors at UCSD. It was the end of Spring and my last office hour. One of my students came in and asked for a reading list. What kind? Everything she should have read in college but hadn't been assigned. Wow. So I said, ok, what Plato did you read. None. She was in fact discouraged from reading Plato, something about dualism. Lots of theory, tho. So we went from there. Here's what was going on. This was the brightest, most talented student in the class. She had taken a two year contract to be an English language secretary in Japan, to learn the language, and figured she'd have a lot of involuntary alone time. Picture a willowy blond, movie star gorgeous, who seemed unaware of the long trail of drooling men who followed her everywhere. I wonder how much reading she got done. Best, Mark At 02:22 PM 3/2/2010, you wrote: >Mark: > >I dropped out of an MFA program because I couldn't stand most of the >other students. I never finished my MA because the lit theory was >killing (and succeeded) something vital in my creative psychology. > >So,. for those of us who aren't in such a program and who've suffered >from the deficient secondary schooling also being complained about, >what do you recommend? > >I once asked Ron Silliman, after reading yet another complain about >the deficiencies of the SoQ and the anthologies used in school, etc... >what his recommended studies would be. Who should we read? What does >his version of history look like outside of the reactionary blogging? > >Seems to me if 1/4 of the energy spent beating up MFA programs (in >general, not just here and not your participation in this thread in >particular) were spent sharing specifics to help some of us raised in >the mainstream find our way to the best, most representative, most >historically interesting stuff, the net positive effect would be much >greater. > >c >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Mar 2 15:42:06 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 15:42:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1003021150q5f815e19odd29799564326b0b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com><47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net><731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a1003021150q5f815e19odd29799564326b0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: << If you want to score card, try to score how often these kinds of discussions lead to any fruitful or useful observation. I can guess what your total will be. Jeff Establishment Drone >> Not often, which was why I was initially reluctant to get involved in this one. Where the current thread differs from the norm of sheer recycled pub-bore type repetition of the usual points that convince no one of anything that they don't think already, is that it's generating, for once, some sort of *specifics, the range of people's involvement in MFA courses and why they value this (and most recently, which is perhaps a more important issue, what *is the proper training for a young writer?). (Unsurprising answer, from all sides, "The kind I had.") So things aren't always the same, or the same old same old different, though people frequently, and more often than not discussing the MFA, seem to think they are. As to the terminal degree, or when having a PhD was a *necessary union card for teaching at the university level in the UK, I can pretty much state exactly when it happened here. When I was an undergraduate at Glasgow in the middle to late sixties, approximately half of my teachers had PhDs, and the other half did not. Sharp boundary, and the divide fell precisely across those who were roughly forty on younger then, and those who were older. Everyone under forty had a PhD, virtually nobody over forty didn't. Now? Go figure. Dunno when the shift reached the point where *everyone teaching had to have a PhD, but it was certainly tied in with the increase in the number of candiates, "qualified" in whatever sense, applying for jobs. On one level, the "must have a PhD" was a useful first cut for winnowing down the number of applicants. But *that was the good old days (before perhaps the early nineties) -- now it's "must have a PhD" AND "a track record of already published work", which began when the Academic Research Exercise made the publication record of every single miserable university department in the country turn *directly on the quantity -- "quantity", mark you, simply quantity, no one even pretended that quality of publication came in anywhere. Only that the work, good, bad, or indifferent (as long as it couldn't be proved to be plagiarised) published in refereed journals counted. And nothing else. (Effectively -- there was usually some gesture towards "quality of teaching", but as this was usually difficult to assess, it never seemed to figure highly.) Then just when you thought things couldn't get any worse, the criteria were shifted to privilege monographs, and rule out reviews (even ones printed in a refereed etc.) completely, so at a stroke, all the bright and intelligent colleagues of mine who had once spent their time writing considered reviews of the latest scholarship gave it up as a bad job, and concentrated on the occasional article and making sure they had a monograph in the pipeline. Bingo, one of the major aspects of peer review -- scholarly work reviewed at length by those in the field competent to make a judgment on it -- vanished overnight. So don't anyone pretend that the mechanism of career advancement, and the production of writing, is somehow independent of the financial structure of the educational establishment. MFAs may or may not be a good or bad thing, but ruling out a consideration of their possible larger impact on the way in which poetry is distributed and "rewarded", who's priviledged and who's not, as a non-question, suggests a naivity bordering on the delusional. Robin (irritated yet once more) On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 2:37 PM, Judy Prince wrote: Jeff, Something about the phrase "terminal degree".....the "terminal" part.....gives pause. Admittedly, I've never used the expression, nor, if I'd heard it, paid attention, but it becomes ominous in such a discussion as this. Trying to imagine who the right people are that Bob should be angry with; I should get better at score-carding. Judy the wrong person to get angry with On 2 March 2010 13:22, Jeff Newberry wrote: Teaching on a university level requires a terminal degree, Bob. If you want to be angry, at least be angry at the right people. Jeff Newberry, Establishment Drone On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: I also notice that every post to New-Poetry or elsewhere that I've seen that announces some position at a college for a teacher of any kind of creative writing requires an MFA, if not a Ph.D. --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Mar 2 16:01:25 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 16:01:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1003021150q5f815e19odd29799564326b0b@mail.gmail.co m> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a1003021150q5f815e19odd29799564326b0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Not my implication, Jeff. I understand and sympathize with the desire for stability and an income, and a job that's less soul-crushing than many. There are certainly bad guys out there (many of them women), but they'r a few, and they usually don't run the show. The problem is systemic. Thinking that any criticism of the system must be ad hominem only makes it impossible to discuss. Best, Mark >My problem with this whole "MFA is bad" business is that it implies >a bad guy: anyone who writes and/or publishes in primarily academic >circles is a bad guy. These bad guys are then dismissed and painted >with a broad brush as "gate keepers" who want to keep the "status >quo." I've been involved in colleges and universities all of my >adult life. I've not met this small-minded stereotype. Most of the >teachers and colleagues I've had have been open minded about all >kinds of poetry. One workshop revolved around "ruining" a >text. The class produced all kinds of wonderful pieces: a friend >of mine wrote some homophonic translations of Rilke. Another >student photocopied sacred texts on top of one another time and >again, making an odd kind of sacred palimpsest. And this experience >is only of the myriad I had. Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Mar 2 16:13:13 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 16:13:13 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a1003021150q5f815e19odd29799564326b0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Precisely what I observed on this side of the Atlantic. I went to Columbia and Hopkins, two elite universities. Nevertheless, in lit depts at any rate, the ratio of phds to none was about the same as you report, presumably at Glasgow, also an elite institution. And those with doctorates had often taught for many years, as full-timers with tenure, before they got it. But they were the old guard. Of course in the States the change happened as secondary and undergraduate education was collapsing, so that one could no longer assume functional literacy. >As to the terminal degree, or when having a PhD was a *necessary >union card for teaching at the university level in the UK, I can >pretty much state exactly when it happened here. > >When I was an undergraduate at Glasgow in the middle to late >sixties, approximately half of my teachers had PhDs, and the other >half did not. Sharp boundary, and the divide fell precisely across >those who were roughly forty on younger then, and those who were >older. Everyone under forty had a PhD, virtually nobody over forty didn't. > >Now? Go figure. Dunno when the shift reached the point where >*everyone teaching had to have a PhD, but it was certainly tied in >with the increase in the number of candiates, "qualified" in >whatever sense, applying for jobs. On one level, the "must have a >PhD" was a useful first cut for winnowing down the number of applicants. > >But *that was the good old days (before perhaps the early nineties) >-- now it's "must have a PhD" AND "a track record of already >published work", which began when the Academic Research Exercise >made the publication record of every single miserable university >department in the country turn *directly on the quantity -- >"quantity", mark you, simply quantity, no one even pretended that >quality of publication came in anywhere. Only that the work, good, >bad, or indifferent (as long as it couldn't be proved to be >plagiarised) published in refereed journals counted. And nothing >else. (Effectively -- there was usually some gesture towards >"quality of teaching", but as this was usually difficult to assess, >it never seemed to figure highly.) > >Then just when you thought things couldn't get any worse, the >criteria were shifted to privilege monographs, and rule out reviews >(even ones printed in a refereed etc.) completely, so at a stroke, >all the bright and intelligent colleagues of mine who had once spent >their time writing considered reviews of the latest scholarship gave >it up as a bad job, and concentrated on the occasional article and >making sure they had a monograph in the pipeline. > >Bingo, one of the major aspects of peer review -- scholarly work >reviewed at length by those in the field competent to make a >judgment on it -- vanished overnight. Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Tue Mar 2 16:18:32 2010 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 12:18:32 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: References: <8CC882F40B93828-1B04-4A65@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> <731bb17a1003020808l4a46b5a7i85f2dfc90ec04564@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Mark: I'm totally serious. "Living syllabus" is a great term and what you describe is just what I've been looking for (and it also resonates with my day-to-day work promoting open education and collaboration, but that's an aside). I'm not necessarily seeking a prescription, but a description that represents something other than the relatively mainstream conception(s) that I am familiar with. This is not a new search for me. We've butted heads here a bit and my tastes are probably incredibly provincial compared to many here, but I've been spending a lot of time for the past 5 years or exploring outside the mainstream and my taste and understanding have grown as a result. But it's been necessarily scattershot and I've never found "the thread" historically and up into the contemporary the way I have with the smaller set of mainstream poetries. I feel like there's a kind of alternative history or weave that I can't get my mind around. So, backchannel or otherwise, I am sincerely interested in whatever you have to recommend. And I have to say, that I'm not alone in looking for this kind of guidance. Browsing the blogs and publications tends to yield a huge crop of poetry that is hard to differentiate and writing about poetry and poetics that assumes a lot of knowledge that I and many others I've talked to don't have. It's frustrating. c On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Chris: You'll forgive me if in this context this feels like a trap. If > you're serious, I can certainly send you a list b/c, after I ask a couple of > questions. I see no reason why the list at large should be curious about > what I'd include. > > On the other hand, if list members wanted to send their own list of the > essentials, that might be interesting. I envision it going back to Beowulf > and not involving immediate contemporaries. Not for showing off, but what > people have actually learned from. > > A living syllabus. > > Any takers? > > An aside. I was asked a similar question once. I had taught the senior-level > poetry workshop for majors at UCSD. It was the end of Spring and my last > office hour. One of my students came in and asked for a reading list. What > kind? Everything she should have read in college but hadn't been assigned. > Wow. So I said, ok, what Plato did you read. None. She was in fact > discouraged from reading Plato, something about dualism. Lots of theory, > tho. So we went from there. > > Here's what was going on. This was the brightest, most talented student in > the class. She had taken a two year contract to be an English language > secretary in Japan, to learn the language, and figured she'd have a lot of > involuntary alone time. Picture a willowy blond, movie star gorgeous, who > seemed unaware of the long trail of drooling men who followed her > everywhere. I wonder how much reading she got done. > > Best, > > Mark > > > At 02:22 PM 3/2/2010, you wrote: > > Mark: > > I dropped out of an MFA program because I couldn't stand most of the > other students. I never finished my MA because the lit theory was > killing (and succeeded) something vital in my creative psychology. > > So,. for those of us who aren't in such a program and who've suffered > from the deficient secondary schooling also being complained about, > what do you recommend? > > I once asked Ron Silliman, after reading yet another complain about > the deficiencies of the SoQ and the anthologies used in school, etc... > what his recommended studies would be. Who should we read? What does > his version of history look like outside of the reactionary blogging? > > Seems to me if 1/4 of the energy spent beating up MFA programs (in > general, not just here and not your participation in this thread in > particular) were spent sharing specifics to help some of us raised in > the mainstream find our way to the best, most representative, most > historically interesting stuff, the net positive effect would be much > greater. > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it."?? John Palattella in The Nation > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From AlMaginnes at aol.com Tue Mar 2 16:31:49 2010 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 16:31:49 EST Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) Message-ID: <204a.53183a25.38beddc5@aol.com> In a message dated 3/2/2010 4:18:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, chris at chrislott.org writes: You'll forgive me if in this context this feels like a trap. Mark, methinks you take this a it too seriously. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skip at louisiana.edu Tue Mar 2 16:31:55 2010 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 15:31:55 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Voice"! Exactly. I've heard it spoken of it as something a writer develops and then drives about though a dozen different themes in a lifetime like a shiny sportscar through major European cities. But when they speak of the "execution of poetry," they've got it nailed. -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Daly Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 2:09 PM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) I got my MFA before there was any critical theory involved, when it was discouraged in fact, and took all my theory in the English and Literature departments. "Voice" was the big thing to find and develop. It is still very much emphasized by, IMO, utterly the worst writers ever. So, there, Robin: we can't name names front channel if we do want to be in the system, but for me -- look for poets who talk about voice -- and find poets that aren't very bright. I was 23; I had been a Literary Writing major undergrad (it was actually my secondary major). I also taught a "reading poetry" course to mostly adult undergrads a few times. I don't think providing a single reading list to a group in a workshop is helpful. I think each person needs to find her own, to learn to guess what they need to learn, to learn how to make reading lists. This is why anthologies are evil. But, the days of anthologies are nearly over. Admittedly, I have always made reading lists for myself, by asking people what they liked, thought was important, etc. In workshops, I generally have reading/mini lecture that's all from the public domain/fair use. But, "all poetry and text art anywhere or all time" is a pretty huge thing, so I tend to pick 18 weeks of things that are related in some way. Then I try to relate the works that week to each other, and to the reading, even if it's "hey, this is completely different." I never teach the same writers together twice (even in lit classes). To workshops, I just bring in tons of books, and list names, schools, time periods at people. You wrote this, that's cool, it has got this aspect, have you read this and this and this? Check it out, let me know what you think. Here's my copy, return it. And I do this in class so that people who really are collecting reading recs can write stuff down too, and so everyone sees you have to read LOTS and LOTS, buy TONS of books and journals, not just a few "thin volumes." If you have a "smart classroom," you can just put a punch of names and links up right then, and everyone has it. This does tend to drive some people nuts because there's no right and wrong, no items of knowledge that I will impart to them for a small fee. The benefit is that at the end of the term, you have a bunch of writers who are writing completely differently, coming from and going to different traditions, and who feel encouraged. You can't make people have talent, but you can force them to be creative in their approach and practice, and to develop a personal taste. -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jeff.newberry at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 16:57:43 2010 From: jeff.newberry at gmail.com (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 16:57:43 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a1003021150q5f815e19odd29799564326b0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <731bb17a1003021357m2382ae14xb6826d474898c33b@mail.gmail.com> Mark, Perhaps I overstated my case, for I didn't mean to turn the discussion down a nasty path. My implication is this: railing against the system usually requires that said system is bad--the "bad guy" I referred to. And you may be right about a "systemic" problem, but I'm such a nothing in the world of poetry that I don't even consider the "system" when I publish. As I said, I'm primarily a composition teacher. I'm evaluated each year in a few areas: public service, teaching, service to the institution. But my publishing (the little I do) means not a whit to my superiors. I write & publish because I genuinely love to write, and to be honest, I can't imagine ever *not *writing. Again, I want to be clear: I'm not dismissing your concerns. I just think that a vast majority of poets and writers write without any recognition or prize money or academic publishing credits. Many of my best friends write and publish in small journals simply because these folks *like to write, *not because they're out to gain some kind of recognition. Of course, these folks don't have academic jobs that are dependent upon their publishing. Here's my problems with these kinds of discussions: the tacit assumption that MFAs are somehow morally suspect. Many (not you) look down their noses at those who've pursued creative writing in higher education, snobbishly dismissing university-trained poets and their "cookie-cutter" poetics. These same dismissive souls cherry pick poems and point to a few popular tropes and say, "Look! Look! An 'Iowa' poem" or some such reductive nonsense. Rather than accept the writing at face value, the work is derided not on its own merits but because of who wrote it. Somehow, if you write and you teach and you publish in academic presses and journals, then you're not "pure" as a poet or writer, as though getting paid for your writing is a bad thing. Of course, I'm one of those idiots who think that you can't quantify art (or am I a nihilist? I forget). I believe that the best works of art open up into a world of mystery, beyond what is charted or measurable. If that writing comes from a workshop, who cares? Not me. I'm not in this game for the money. If I were, I'd be broker than I am now. (And if the Georgia legislature has anything to say about it, I will indeed be broke soon, but that's another thread . . . ) Best, Jeff Newberry On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 4:01 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Not my implication, Jeff. I understand and sympathize with the desire for > stability and an income, and a job that's less soul-crushing than many. > There are certainly bad guys out there (many of them women), but they'r a > few, and they usually don't run the show. The problem is systemic. Thinking > that any criticism of the system must be ad hominem only makes it impossible > to discuss. > > Best, > > Mark > > > My problem with this whole "MFA is bad" business is that it implies a bad > guy: anyone who writes and/or publishes in primarily academic circles is a > bad guy. These bad guys are then dismissed and painted with a broad brush > as "gate keepers" who want to keep the "status quo." I've been involved in > colleges and universities all of my adult life. I've not met this > small-minded stereotype. Most of the teachers and colleagues I've had have > been open minded about all kinds of poetry. One workshop revolved around > "ruining" a text. The class produced all kinds of wonderful pieces: a > friend of mine wrote some homophonic translations of Rilke. Another student > photocopied sacred texts on top of one another time and again, making an odd > kind of sacred palimpsest. And this experience is only of the myriad I > had. > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ccooley at overdomain.com Tue Mar 2 17:02:21 2010 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 14:02:21 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound Message-ID: Let's see, Malatesta is a restaurant in NYC, right? Or is it a welding shop in Jamaica? Mussolini, I've heard of-- I believe he crafted the recent Supreme Court ruling on free speech for corporations. But Kung... I'm totally lost. Nah, Pound in _ABC_ is very crusty of course, but he doesn't say a word about "usury", etc, or any of the other really embarrassing things that diverted him. He's just talking about what he thinks a poet should read. This book is my MFA. And it's short so you can read it in like 2 weeks instead of taking 2 years. After first reading it 8 years ago, I started learning translating and now have made translations from Anglo Saxon, French, & Spanish. My translation of "The Ruin" will be published in the fall by "Ezra" magazine, my first published translation. The reading list Pound outlines became my reading list. This is one place where I think a non-Pound MFA and I might disagree: I see no reason to read Tony Hoagland, Mark Strand, or Naomi Shihab Nye until I've finished the Oresteia. That is, I'm willing to compromise, or give up altogether, on currency in order to have depth. Why should I read good books when I can read great ones? It's a crusty idea, I realize-- not good for my "career path". But since I need way more money than I can make teaching at a university (I'm not pleased about this, by the way-- I would love to teach, but the devil has other plans for me), who cares? My main concern is that today it appears that posterity is broken. But that's another conversation. *ps. The writer disavows all political and religious implications of this message. === Are his ideal scholars who would inform the state (in the person of Malatesta, Mussolini, etc.) and reintroduce the classics divorced from the academy (like Kung)? I cannot remember. -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Alan C Golding Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 10:58 AM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound "Ignorant [people] of genius are constantly rediscovering 'laws' of art which the academics had mislaid or hidden." "There is one quality which unites all great and perdurable writers, you don't NEED schools and colleges to keep 'em alive. Put them out of the curriculum, lay them in the dust of libraries, and once in every so often a chance reader, unsubsidized and unbribed, will dig them up again, put them in the light again, without asking favours." "The great savants ignore, quite often, the idiocies of the ruck of the teaching profession." -- Ezra Pound _The ABC of Reading_ Not to demur from, exactly, but to supplement or complicate Crisman's introduction of Pound into the conversation: Pound spent much of his career thinking about, addressing and hoping to transform the academy, even if that address takes the form of decades-worth of railing. From his earliest essays on (see "Raphaelite Latin") he's theorizing the (possible) place of the creative writer in teaching institutions. ABC of Reading is a textbook, first published in the US by a university press, though admittedly probably not as a realistic intervention in the textbook market. One can read Pound as a pedagogical poet who wanted to change pedagogical institutions. His rhetoric was oppositional, but he also liked (tried?) to imagine the artist-academy boundaries that he invoked as porous. Alan Teacher, of undergrads and grads, not of creative writing, at an institution with a newly established CW minor but no CW major, and with an "MA with creative thesis" option at the grad level but no MFA. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Mar 2 17:03:12 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 17:03:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: <204a.53183a25.38beddc5@aol.com> References: <204a.53183a25.38beddc5@aol.com> Message-ID: My nature. At 04:31 PM 3/2/2010, you wrote: >In a message dated 3/2/2010 4:18:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >chris at chrislott.org writes: >You'll forgive me if in this context this feels like a trap. > >Mark, methinks you take this a it too seriously. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 17:06:42 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 23:06:42 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1003021357m2382ae14xb6826d474898c33b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a1003021150q5f815e19odd29799564326b0b@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a1003021357m2382ae14xb6826d474898c33b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003021406l1b069449v7bdb16734c322fe5@mail.gmail.com> Jeff is one of the most honest contributors to this list. I do not think he has overstated his case seen the many mails back and forth and forth and forth again and again. On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 10:57 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > Mark, > > Perhaps I overstated my case, for I didn't mean to turn the discussion down > a nasty path. > > My implication is this: railing against the system usually requires that > said system is bad--the "bad guy" I referred to. And you may be right about > a "systemic" problem, but I'm such a nothing in the world of poetry that I > don't even consider the "system" when I publish. As I said, I'm primarily a > composition teacher. I'm evaluated each year in a few areas: public > service, teaching, service to the institution. But my publishing (the > little I do) means not a whit to my superiors. I write & publish because I > genuinely love to write, and to be honest, I can't imagine ever *not *writing. > > > Again, I want to be clear: I'm not dismissing your concerns. I just think > that a vast majority of poets and writers write without any recognition or > prize money or academic publishing credits. Many of my best friends write > and publish in small journals simply because these folks *like to write, *not > because they're out to gain some kind of recognition. Of course, these > folks don't have academic jobs that are dependent upon their publishing. > > Here's my problems with these kinds of discussions: the tacit assumption > that MFAs are somehow morally suspect. Many (not you) look down their noses > at those who've pursued creative writing in higher education, snobbishly > dismissing university-trained poets and their "cookie-cutter" poetics. > These same dismissive souls cherry pick poems and point to a few popular > tropes and say, "Look! Look! An 'Iowa' poem" or some such reductive > nonsense. Rather than accept the writing at face value, the work is derided > not on its own merits but because of who wrote it. Somehow, if you write > and you teach and you publish in academic presses and journals, then you're > not "pure" as a poet or writer, as though getting paid for your writing is a > bad thing. > > Of course, I'm one of those idiots who think that you can't quantify art > (or am I a nihilist? I forget). I believe that the best works of art open > up into a world of mystery, beyond what is charted or measurable. If that > writing comes from a workshop, who cares? Not me. I'm not in this game for > the money. If I were, I'd be broker than I am now. (And if the Georgia > legislature has anything to say about it, I will indeed be broke soon, but > that's another thread . . . ) > > Best, > Jeff Newberry > > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 4:01 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> Not my implication, Jeff. I understand and sympathize with the desire for >> stability and an income, and a job that's less soul-crushing than many. >> There are certainly bad guys out there (many of them women), but they'r a >> few, and they usually don't run the show. The problem is systemic. Thinking >> that any criticism of the system must be ad hominem only makes it impossible >> to discuss. >> >> Best, >> >> Mark >> >> >> My problem with this whole "MFA is bad" business is that it implies a bad >> guy: anyone who writes and/or publishes in primarily academic circles is a >> bad guy. These bad guys are then dismissed and painted with a broad brush >> as "gate keepers" who want to keep the "status quo." I've been involved in >> colleges and universities all of my adult life. I've not met this >> small-minded stereotype. Most of the teachers and colleagues I've had have >> been open minded about all kinds of poetry. One workshop revolved around >> "ruining" a text. The class produced all kinds of wonderful pieces: a >> friend of mine wrote some homophonic translations of Rilke. Another student >> photocopied sacred texts on top of one another time and again, making an odd >> kind of sacred palimpsest. And this experience is only of the myriad I >> had. >> >> Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University >> of California Press). >> http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of >> Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively >> broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also >> created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing >> else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and > that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and > experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar > needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 17:09:06 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 23:09:06 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: 07 - Deadline approaching fast: Colonial Latin Am Division: Call for Papers MLA 2011 In-Reply-To: <-9137127196300874173@unknownmsgid> References: <-9137127196300874173@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003021409l69c9df4cv25c2ea35ee5fc18e@mail.gmail.com> Dear colleagues: [Excuse the duplication if you have already received this call. Deadlines approaching fast: March 5 and March 10, 2010] The next MLA convention will take place in *Los Angeles on January 6-9, 2011*. The *Division of Colonial Latin American Literatures* calls for papers for the following two sessions: 1. *Visual Textualizations: Latin American Colonial Lives *: This panel seeks to explore how written and visual/iconic narratives from the colonial period interact with their verbal counterparts to convey views and perceptions of the colonial experience in Latin America. Please send one-page abstract and 2-page c.v. by *March 05 *to R. Quispe-Agnoli (quispeag at msu.edu ) 2.*Colonial Masculinities/Masculinidades colonials*: Papers exploring masculinities (i.e. ecclesiastical, military, subaltern) and their representations in colonial Latin American literature and culture; theoretical approaches to hegemonic paradigms and contestatory models welcome. One-page abstracts and 2-page c.v. by *March 10 (new!) *to Stephanie Kirk (skirk at wustl.edu ) The following is a session in collaboration (non guaranteed) with the Division of Sixteenth- and Seventeenth-Century Spanish Poetry and Prose: *Life Writing in the Early Modern Hispanic World*: Representations of self or others in any genre--picaresque, travel writing, letters, vidas--from colonial Spanish America, early modern Iberia, or both. 1-page abstracts and 2-page vitae; Nieves Romero-Di az (rdiaz at mtholyoke.edu) and Cynthia Stone (cstone at holycross.edu ) Muchos saludos, Rocio Q.-A. Chair, MLA Division of Colonial Latin American Lits. [*You are receiving this message because you have declared an interest to be informed about incoming sessions and other activities of the MLA Colonial Latin American Division. If you wish to be removed from this list, reply to this message asking to be removed*] Rocio Quispe-Agnoli Associate Professor of Hispanic St. Director Center for Integrative St. in the Arts & Humanities 305 Linton Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 www.cisah.msu.edu -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Tue Mar 2 17:12:34 2010 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 13:12:34 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <99349A832BB4488FBE2211A3C9B4F430@win.louisiana.edu> References: <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> <99349A832BB4488FBE2211A3C9B4F430@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: I think that's good advice. But though they can be connected enterprises, I've essentially given up on writing-- but remain interested in becoming a better reader of-- poetry. c On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Skip Fox wrote: > Chris, > > One suggestion might be: How about writing what you don?t know? From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 17:14:33 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 23:14:33 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: References: <204a.53183a25.38beddc5@aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003021414i35e37a5eg99a64527c8fa0a70@mail.gmail.com> I teach high school, translate professionally, I have an MFA from UNO University of New Orleans besides other qualifications. -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Mar 2 17:23:26 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 14:23:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Non-poet reads poetry! Message-ID: <650980.83711.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Political scientist, Ashok Karra, continues to support poetry (something he doesn't write) by putting his thoughts out there about specific poems (for his mostly non-poetry-reading audience!) -- pretty daring if you ask someone who rarely critiques poetry (me!). If you feel so moved, please visit and even post a note on his latest response to my poem, "State of a Nation" - thanks in advance! http://www.ashokkarra.com/2010/03/amy-king-state-of-a-nation/ Best, Amy _______ BOOK Slaves to Do These Things-- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm RANT "My Barbaric Bitch of a Yawp" -- http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2010/02/amy-king.html ESSAY "The What Else"-- http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/Archives/Winter_2009/prose/A_King.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Mar 2 17:26:04 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 14:26:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Women artists / poets Message-ID: <178177.93641.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I don't know if I sent this here, but I sent it to a women's poetry listserv and have now second guessed myself: why shouldn't I send it to an "everyone" listserv? Looks great --- take a gander at the short trailer here - http://www.whodoesshethinksheis.net/ Cheers, Amy _______ BOOK Slaves to Do These Things-- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm RANT "My Barbaric Bitch of a Yawp" -- http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2010/02/amy-king.html ESSAY "The What Else"-- http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/Archives/Winter_2009/prose/A_King.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Mar 2 17:34:30 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 14:34:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Women artists / poets In-Reply-To: <178177.93641.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <178177.93641.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <824398.28238.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> By the way, this speaks to the discussion from awhile ago about the "numbers" of women vs. men publishing, etc. ________________________________ From: amy king I don't know if I sent this here, but I sent it to a women's poetry listserv and have now second guessed myself: why shouldn't I send it to an "everyone" listserv? Looks great --- take a gander at the short trailer here - http://www.whodoesshethinksheis.net/ Cheers, Amy _______ BOOK Slaves to Do These Things-- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm RANT "My Barbaric Bitch of a Yawp" -- http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2010/02/amy-king.html ESSAY "The What Else"-- http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/Archives/Winter_2009/prose/A_King.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 17:42:07 2010 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 14:42:07 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1003021357m2382ae14xb6826d474898c33b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a1003021150q5f815e19odd29799564326b0b@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a1003021357m2382ae14xb6826d474898c33b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: There are two volumes called "The Poet's Bookshelf" -- disclosure -- I'm in the second one -- that have lists of 5-10 books and reasons for about a total of a hundred (American) poets. http://www.bsu.edu/classes/koontz/barnwood/indbks/davis.htm http://web.mac.com/tomkoontz/Site_2/Poets_Bookshelf_II.html As in the UK, and as everyone here *seems* to be aware, there are schools with different histories, founded and continuing with different missions. They offer the same degrees, but the faculty, the students, and the work the degrees themselves involve are not the same. Sure, there are great faculty everywhere, and great student poets. But most teaching institutions are different from research institutions, and if there's a religious foundation, well, that can get a little funky in poetry; most private colleges and universities really do operate differently from most public ones. It isn't uncommon to get more than one MFA, at increasingly respected schools, or MA - MFA combo., or MFA - PhD combo. -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com From halvard at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 17:48:21 2010 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 16:48:21 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: He who lives only on mountaintops denies himself the pleasures of the streams and valleys. --old Chinese proverb Hal follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest collection -- http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 4:02 PM, Crisman Cooley wrote: > Let's see, Malatesta is a restaurant in NYC, right? Or is it a welding shop > in Jamaica? Mussolini, I've heard of-- I believe he crafted the recent > Supreme Court ruling on free speech for corporations. But Kung... I'm > totally lost. > > Nah, Pound in _ABC_ is very crusty of course, but he doesn't say a word > about "usury", etc, or any of the other really embarrassing things that > diverted him. He's just talking about what he thinks a poet should read. > > This book is my MFA. And it's short so you can read it in like 2 weeks > instead of taking 2 years. After first reading it 8 years ago, I started > learning translating and now have made translations from Anglo Saxon, > French, & Spanish. My translation of "The Ruin" will be published in the > fall by "Ezra" magazine, my first published translation. > > The reading list Pound outlines became my reading list. This is one place > where I think a non-Pound MFA and I might disagree: I see no reason to read > Tony Hoagland, Mark Strand, or Naomi Shihab Nye until I've finished the > Oresteia. That is, I'm willing to compromise, or give up altogether, on > currency in order to have depth. Why should I read good books when I can > read great ones? > > It's a crusty idea, I realize-- not good for my "career path". But since I > need way more money than I can make teaching at a university (I'm not > pleased about this, by the way-- I would love to teach, but the devil has > other plans for me), who cares? > > My main concern is that today it appears that posterity is broken. But > that's another conversation. > > > *ps. The writer disavows all political and religious implications of this > message. > > === > > > Are his ideal scholars who would inform the state (in the person of > Malatesta, Mussolini, etc.) and reintroduce the classics divorced from the > academy (like Kung)? I cannot remember. > > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Alan C Golding > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 10:58 AM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound > > "Ignorant [people] of genius are constantly rediscovering 'laws' of art > which the academics had mislaid or hidden." > > "There is one quality which unites all great and perdurable writers, you > don't NEED schools and colleges to keep 'em alive. Put them out of the > curriculum, lay them in the dust of libraries, and once in every so often a > chance reader, unsubsidized and unbribed, will dig them up again, put them > in the light again, without asking favours." > > "The great savants ignore, quite often, the idiocies of the ruck of the > teaching profession." > > -- Ezra Pound _The ABC of Reading_ > > Not to demur from, exactly, but to supplement or complicate Crisman's > introduction of Pound into the conversation: Pound spent much of his career > thinking about, addressing and hoping to transform the academy, even if > that > address takes the form of decades-worth of railing. From his earliest > essays on (see "Raphaelite Latin") he's theorizing the (possible) place of > the creative writer in teaching institutions. ABC of Reading is a > textbook, > first published in the US by a university press, though admittedly probably > not as a realistic intervention in the textbook market. One can read Pound > as a pedagogical poet who wanted to change pedagogical institutions. His > rhetoric was oppositional, but he also liked (tried?) to imagine the > artist-academy boundaries that he invoked as porous. > > Alan > > Teacher, of undergrads and grads, not of creative writing, at an > institution > with a newly established CW minor but no CW major, and with an "MA with > creative thesis" option at the grad level but no MFA. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Mar 2 18:42:02 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 18:42:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com><47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B8DA24A.4020806@nut-n-but.net> Jeff Newberry wrote: > Teaching on a university level requires a terminal degree, Bob. > > If you want to be angry, at least be angry at the right people. > > Jeff Newberry, Establishment Drone Believe it or not, Jeff, I felt no anger at all when I reported that "very post to New-Poetry or elsewhere that I've seen that announces some position at a college for a teacher of any kind of creative writing requires an MFA, if not a Ph.D." I was merely making an observation. --Bob From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Mar 2 18:46:16 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 18:46:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: << Nah, Pound in _ABC_ is very crusty of course, but he doesn't say a word about "usury", etc, or any of the other really embarrassing things that diverted him. He's just talking about what he thinks a poet should read. This book is my MFA. And it's short so you can read it in like 2 weeks instead of taking 2 years. After first reading it 8 years ago, I started learning translating and now have made translations from Anglo Saxon, French, & Spanish. My translation of "The Ruin" will be published in the fall by "Ezra" magazine, my first published translation. >> Totally concur over Pound's _ABC of Reading_, Crisman. I'd put it way up, and a book that I learned more from than from many of my teachers. But I found it for myself, not via anything I was told to read by anyone. Anyone know if it's recommended *other than as a text on a course on Pound? It ought to be. About Mark's essentials ... I'd put Beowulf a bit of the way down the list -- I think when you come down to it, you *can live without it, and generations of English Language poets did. And Plato ... Depends on which Plato. I'd say read the Death of Socrates Dialogues (Apology, Crito, etc.), and maybe the Symposium, but other than that ... I still haven't read _The Republic_ (other than the usual juicy walls-of-the-cave bits, and frankly I have no intention of ever doing so. But here's an instance of how the Evil Web *really empowers -- if we make a recommendation, it can be followed up straight away, rather than even having to go to a library. So god bless google, and the Internet Archives, and Project Guttenberg, and all the on-line free language dictionaries, and ... Well, if you want to read the Z-text of Piers Plowman (which isn't actually that strange a thing) you still have to buy a hard copy, but that's becoming the exception. And if you want an out-of-the-way text of something at a reasonable price, it's more than likely to be available via abebooks without costing an arm and a leg. Which was how (on Mark's recommendation) I acquired the collected poems of Paul Blackburn. What we really need is a Poetry Teaching Wiki -- anyone up to setting up the mechanism for this, and getting it up and running? Robin From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Mar 2 18:51:16 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 18:51:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com><47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC><4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net><731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B8DA474.9060905@nut-n-but.net> Judy Prince wrote: > Jeff, > > Something about the phrase "terminal degree".....the "terminal" > part.....gives pause. Admittedly, I've never used the expression, > nor, if I'd heard it, paid attention, but it becomes ominous in such a > discussion as this. > > Trying to imagine who the right people are that Bob should be angry > with; I should get better at score-carding. > > Judy the wrong person to get angry with I'm not sure what he meant. As I just wrote in another Important Post, I wasn't at all angry. However, I have been angry at times NOT with MFA's and PH.D.s but only with the people who hire teachers, lecturers, editors, etc., on the basis of their degrees rather than their abilities. In any field. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Mar 2 18:55:48 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 18:55:48 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1003021150q5f815e19odd29799564326b0b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com><47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net><731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a1003021150q5f815e19odd29799564326b0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B8DA584.8050903@nut-n-but.net> > > Bob and I are sparring partners from way back. He likes to paint with > a broad brush. I like to point out that fact. I've got nothing > against old Bob. In fact, I think some of his mathemaku are really > interesting. I've used them in a couple of different classes that > I've taught. Well, thanks for the the above, Jeff. > > If you want to score card, try to score how often these kinds of > discussions lead to any fruitful or useful observation. I can guess > what your total will be. I pretty much agree with that. These threads are mostly for popping off in. On the other hand, sometimes someone says something interesting--albeit more about the poetry business than about poetry. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Mar 2 19:18:07 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 19:18:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: References: <8CC882F40B93828-1B04-4A65@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com><731bb17a1003020808l4a46b5a7i85f2dfc90ec04564@mail.gmail.com>< b06d3f671003021122k3d2946c3ua6837bb32fe66ac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B8DAABF.4060307@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > Mark: > > I'm totally serious. "Living syllabus" is a great term and what you > describe is just what I've been looking for (and it also resonates > with my day-to-day work promoting open education and collaboration, > but that's an aside). Here, I have to jump in with my belief that one thing that would help a great deal is . . . a list of schools of poetry. Why? Because I can't myself imagine a "living syllabus" for the whole of poetry. I think the field has reached the point where we need several syllabuses. NOT JUST ONE THAT ENDS IN WILSHBERIA!!! (Anger for Jeff.) Or maybe one for up to 1900, then five or ten. Some such would share books. As an example, consider my book, /From Haiku To Lyriku/, such a syllabus (however clumsy and personal a one). It was my attempt to list not books but poems more or less chronologically to cover the haiku tradition from the Japanese masters to all sorts of offbeat contemporary haiku and haiku-sized poems, particularly visual haiku. I would /love/ to read a similar book about language poetry by a language poet. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Tue Mar 2 19:21:10 2010 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 16:21:10 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: <4B8DAABF.4060307@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CC882F40B93828-1B04-4A65@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> <731bb17a1003020808l4a46b5a7i85f2dfc90ec04564@mail.gmail.com> <4B8DAABF.4060307@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: the tocs for the Joris / Rothenberg anthologies list Futurism, Expressionism, Dada, Surrealism, Objectivism, and Negritude the Beats, the Vienna Group, the Cobra poets and artists, the Arabic-language Tammuzi poets, the creators of a new "Concrete Poetry," the "postwar poets" of Japan, the Italian Novissimi and Avan-Guardia, the Chinese Misty Poets, and the North American Language Poets -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Tue Mar 2 19:36:30 2010 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 19:36:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7db1d01b1003021636l67b989b6v7f1450eaff7a2880@mail.gmail.com> Robin said: "What we really need is a Poetry Teaching Wiki -- anyone up to setting up the mechanism for this, and getting it up and running?" Excellent idea, Robin! On 2 March 2010 18:46, Robin Hamilton wrote: > << > Nah, Pound in _ABC_ is very crusty of course, but he doesn't say a word > about "usury", etc, or any of the other really embarrassing things that > diverted him. He's just talking about what he thinks a poet should read. > > This book is my MFA. And it's short so you can read it in like 2 weeks > instead of taking 2 years. After first reading it 8 years ago, I started > learning translating and now have made translations from Anglo Saxon, > French, & Spanish. My translation of "The Ruin" will be published in the > fall by "Ezra" magazine, my first published translation. > >> >>> > Totally concur over Pound's _ABC of Reading_, Crisman. I'd put it way up, > and a book that I learned more from than from many of my teachers. But I > found it for myself, not via anything I was told to read by anyone. Anyone > know if it's recommended *other than as a text on a course on Pound? It > ought to be. > > About Mark's essentials ... I'd put Beowulf a bit of the way down the list > -- I think when you come down to it, you *can live without it, and > generations of English Language poets did. > > And Plato ... Depends on which Plato. I'd say read the Death of Socrates > Dialogues (Apology, Crito, etc.), and maybe the Symposium, but other than > that ... I still haven't read _The Republic_ (other than the usual juicy > walls-of-the-cave bits, and frankly I have no intention of ever doing so. > > > But here's an instance of how the Evil Web *really empowers -- if we make a > recommendation, it can be followed up straight away, rather than even having > to go to a library. So god bless google, and the Internet Archives, and > Project Guttenberg, and all the on-line free language dictionaries, and ... > Well, if you want to read the Z-text of Piers Plowman (which isn't actually > that strange a thing) you still have to buy a hard copy, but that's becoming > the exception. And if you want an out-of-the-way text of something at a > reasonable price, it's more than likely to be available via abebooks without > costing an arm and a leg. > > Which was how (on Mark's recommendation) I acquired the collected poems of > Paul Blackburn. > > What we really need is a Poetry Teaching Wiki -- anyone up to setting up > the mechanism for this, and getting it up and running? > > Robin > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Tue Mar 2 20:36:35 2010 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 20:36:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: References: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> <4B8CEE76.8010602@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4B8DBD23.6060407@opus40.org> Mark Weiss wrote: > Are your students creative writing majors? I honestly don't know..I'm an adjunct, and I'm not involved in advising or anything like that. They're undergraduates in a liberal arts program, and if they decide to go on to pursiue careers as writers, I don't think my courses will have held them back at all. > > At 05:54 AM 3/2/2010, you wrote: >> One hand up. I teach on an undergraduate level, have never taught in >> a MFA program, have taught undergraduate creative writing courses, >> generally believe that their purpose is to expose students to a >> different way of approaching, considering and experiencing >> literature, not as an apprenticeship for a professional career. >> >> David Graham wrote: >>> >>> >>> I guess my recurrent role in these threads is to note that most >>> schools don't have MFA programs, most creative writing instruction >>> in this country happens outside of such programs, and that most MFA >>> programs are not Iowa. Furthermore, most creative writing >>> instruction does not occur at the graduate level. These are facts >>> that the broad-brushers railing about the MFA/academic/"official >>> verse culture" ought to at least acknowledge. >>> >>> Just curious: can we have a show of hands as to how many >>> subscribers to NewPo are teachers? Of those, how many teach in an >>> MFA program? >>> >>> >>> ======================================== >>> David Graham >>> grahamd at ripon.edu < mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu> >>> >>> Home Page: >>> http://web.me.com/drjazz >>> >>> Poetry Library: >>> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >>> ========================================== >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> -- >> Tad Richards >> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >> >> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University > of California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's /Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry/ has a bilingual anthology so > effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United > States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in > English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in /The > Nation/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From ccooley at overdomain.com Tue Mar 2 21:18:03 2010 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 18:18:03 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound Message-ID: Robin: Yes, love this idea. I'll look into platform & details for setting it up and report back. From: Judy Prince Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound Robin said: "What we really need is a Poetry Teaching Wiki -- anyone up to setting up the mechanism for this, and getting it up and running?" Excellent idea, Robin! On 2 March 2010 18:46, Robin Hamilton wrote: > << > Nah, Pound in _ABC_ is very crusty of course, but he doesn't say a word > about "usury", etc, or any of the other really embarrassing things that > diverted him. He's just talking about what he thinks a poet should read. > > This book is my MFA. And it's short so you can read it in like 2 weeks > instead of taking 2 years. After first reading it 8 years ago, I started > learning translating and now have made translations from Anglo Saxon, > French, & Spanish. My translation of "The Ruin" will be published in the > fall by "Ezra" magazine, my first published translation. > >> >>> > Totally concur over Pound's _ABC of Reading_, Crisman. I'd put it way up, > and a book that I learned more from than from many of my teachers. But I > found it for myself, not via anything I was told to read by anyone. Anyone > know if it's recommended *other than as a text on a course on Pound? It > ought to be. > > About Mark's essentials ... I'd put Beowulf a bit of the way down the list > -- I think when you come down to it, you *can live without it, and > generations of English Language poets did. > > And Plato ... Depends on which Plato. I'd say read the Death of Socrates > Dialogues (Apology, Crito, etc.), and maybe the Symposium, but other than > that ... I still haven't read _The Republic_ (other than the usual juicy > walls-of-the-cave bits, and frankly I have no intention of ever doing so. > > > But here's an instance of how the Evil Web *really empowers -- if we make a > recommendation, it can be followed up straight away, rather than even having > to go to a library. So god bless google, and the Internet Archives, and > Project Guttenberg, and all the on-line free language dictionaries, and ... > Well, if you want to read the Z-text of Piers Plowman (which isn't actually > that strange a thing) you still have to buy a hard copy, but that's becoming > the exception. And if you want an out-of-the-way text of something at a > reasonable price, it's more than likely to be available via abebooks without > costing an arm and a leg. > > Which was how (on Mark's recommendation) I acquired the collected poems of > Paul Blackburn. > > What we really need is a Poetry Teaching Wiki -- anyone up to setting up > the mechanism for this, and getting it up and running? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ccooley at overdomain.com Tue Mar 2 21:28:34 2010 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 18:28:34 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Chinese Proverb Message-ID: Hal, I grew up near the Continental Divide in Colorado, not far from the source of the CO River-- so, yeah, I know what you mean. My problem (and it is *my* problem) is that a lot of new poetry looks like Kansas to me. Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 16:48:21 -0600 From: Halvard Johnson > He who lives only on mountaintops denies himself the pleasures of the streams and valleys. --old Chinese proverb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Mar 2 21:43:57 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 21:43:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> ----- Original Message ----- From: Crisman Cooley To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 9:18 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound << Robin: Yes, love this idea. I'll look into platform & details for setting it up and report back. >> Brilliant, Crisman!!! If you *do set it up, I'll try and pay my dues. (I always feel guilty about not doing more on The Big Wiki -- like, at the least, I ought to contribute an entry on David Haggart -- but the interface to lodge additions/corrections/etc. always seems just that bit too fiddly to be worth the effort.) I was already thinking of a draft-start-example, playing off Mark's suggestion of "Plato" and my response, essentially, "Which Plato?" This could be elaborated -- I could defend why I'd specify the Death of Socrates and Symposium, and Mark could explain why I really ought to read The Republic. (Riposte: What about the Theatatus then, mate?). So mileage in that ... And an MFA annex with pro and contra arguments, and annotated lists, and hotlinks to actual poems, and, and ... (Hey, maybe even a treatment of metrics that mentions Dipodic Metre!) Even Bob might go for the idea. He'd be the obvious candidate to curate the Vizpo and Haiku annexes. Yeah!!! Go, boy, go!!! Robin ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: Judy Prince Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound Robin said: "What we really need is a Poetry Teaching Wiki -- anyone up to setting up the mechanism for this, and getting it up and running?" Excellent idea, Robin! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Tue Mar 2 23:01:42 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue, 02 Mar 2010 23:01:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4B8DDF26.5030304@nut-n-but.net> Robin Hamilton wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Crisman Cooley > *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 02, 2010 9:18 PM > *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Re: Pound > > << > Robin: Yes, love this idea. I'll look into platform & details for > setting it up and report back. > >> > > Brilliant, Crisman!!! If you *do set it up, I'll try and pay my > dues. (I always feel guilty about not doing more on The Big Wiki > -- like, at the least, I ought to contribute an entry on David > Haggart -- but the interface to lodge additions/corrections/etc. > always seems just that bit too fiddly to be worth the effort.) > > I was already thinking of a draft-start-example, playing off > Mark's suggestion of "Plato" and my response, essentially, "Which > Plato?" This could be elaborated -- I could defend why I'd > specify the Death of Socrates and Symposium, and Mark could > explain why I really ought to read The Republic. (Riposte: What > about the Theatatus then, mate?). So mileage in that ... > > And an MFA annex with pro and contra arguments, and annotated > lists, and hotlinks to actual poems, and, and ... > > (Hey, maybe even a treatment of metrics that mentions Dipodic Metre!) > > Even Bob might go for the idea. He'd be the obvious candidate to > curate the Vizpo and Haiku annexes. > > Yeah!!! Go, boy, go!!! > > Robin > I'd be willing to do something, but--chee--what I would really like would be to given a year's room and board somewhere where I could just think about how to organize something much better than Wikipoo, preferably with an assistant computer whiz. A thought: that the venture start maximally simple--having as its subject not poetry, but--say--the sonnet. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Tue Mar 2 23:57:10 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 23:57:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <4B8DDF26.5030304@nut-n-but.net> References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8DDF26.5030304@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> _____ Even Bob might go for the idea. He'd be the obvious candidate to curate the Vizpo and Haiku annexes. Yeah!!! Go, boy, go!!! Robin _____ I'd be willing to do something, but--chee--what I would really like would be to given a year's room and board somewhere where I could just think about how to organize something much better than Wikipoo, preferably with an assistant computer whiz. A thought: that the venture start maximally simple--having as its subject not poetry, but--say--the sonnet. --Bob >> Um, Bob, if you don't mind my saying so, this is rather like not only reinventing the wheel, but reinventing it square. Also why pay good money for a computer absolute professional whiz kid mavin when my understanding is that there are already templates for mini-Wikis around, which I presume Crisman will be drawing on. Also having a narrow area of concern (the sonnet) won't attract a large enough body of commentators for the homeostatic incremental mechanism to kick in. We're talking about a variant of the Delphi Effect here, sunny jim. At least I think so, nah? Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln ... I look forward to your contribution, however reluctant, with regard to VizPo. Robin _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Mar 3 01:32:35 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 01:32:35 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><4B8DDF26 .5030304@nut-n-but.net> <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> But, Robin--Wikipoo is near-worthless. And the sonnet would attract enough people to get started and would make it easy to iron out the flaws. --Bob From chris at chrislott.org Wed Mar 3 01:49:55 2010 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 21:49:55 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: What is being proposed here? Starting a wiki takes about 15 seconds-- I do it all the time for projects. It's not rocket science. I have 3rd graders editing wikis in minutes. Or is "wikipoo" a reference to Wikipedia and people are considering working in that space? c On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 9:32 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > But, Robin--Wikipoo is near-worthless. ?And the sonnet would attract enough > people to get started and would make it easy to iron out the flaws. > > --Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Mar 3 02:43:02 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 02:43:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><4B8DDF26.5030304@nut-n-but.net><04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: > But, Robin--Wikipoo is near-worthless. {Sorry, Bob, but the best that can be said about the above comment is that it's uninformed bullshit. It's also, if you think about it, actually a nonsense statement, like saying that "most words in French are mis-spelled."} Depends where you bite it -- the language section(s) of Wiki, in particular, are rather good, and getting better all the time, is my impression, since a lot of engaged language specialists check it out regularly. Other bits are of course utter crap, though you could say the same about virtually any encyclopaedia. And anyone who uses Wiki as a *final reference source needs their head examined. It's a starting point, and in that area getting better and better. But thats not entirely the issue. It's the Wiki model I'm suggesting, which is still sort of evolving, both as a model and in the Big Wiki itself. > And the sonnet would attract enough people to get started and would make > it easy to iron out the flaws. As to the sonnet ... Who actually *needs a Wiki on the sonnet? Seems to me that's a classic case where a simple reference to the NPEPP would more than suffice. Robin From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Mar 3 02:49:23 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 02:49:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC><4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: I don't know enough about what pre-set templates for Wikis are around to make an informed comment on Chris's statement below, which was why I earlier threw the question over to the list, where Crisman picked it up. However, I'm delighted to know that the concept is percolating so far down the intellectual food chain. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Lott" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 1:49 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound > What is being proposed here? Starting a wiki takes about 15 seconds-- > I do it all the time for projects. It's not rocket science. I have 3rd > graders editing wikis in minutes. > > Or is "wikipoo" a reference to Wikipedia and people are considering > working in that space? > > c > > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 9:32 PM, Bob Grumman > wrote: >> But, Robin--Wikipoo is near-worthless. And the sonnet would attract >> enough >> people to get started and would make it easy to iron out the flaws. >> >> --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Mar 3 06:49:28 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 06:49:28 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><04605DDC E40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC><4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4B8E4CC8.1000505@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > What is being proposed here? Starting a wiki takes about 15 seconds-- > I do it all the time for projects. It's not rocket science. I have 3rd > graders editing wikis in minutes. > > Or is "wikipoo" a reference to Wikipedia and people are considering > working in that space? It's a reference to Wikipedia, which I once had great hopes for but which turned out to be no better than the Encyclopedia Britannica, which is to say, an okay reference for people wanting an idea of some subject but flawed for anyone wanting the best information available about a subject. I tried to work with Wikipedia a while back, so many of my objections to it may be out-of-date. My prime one isn't--it is that it had become peer-reviewed. Its big problem is that (so far as I know) it is either at the mercy of the irresponsible (at times psychopathically so) or it is peer-reviewed, which means pretty much closed to people like me, some of whom can make contributions of value few peer panels will bother fully investigating before rejecting. It has other flaws--or maybe it's not a wiki problem but a problem with wiki users. I'm thinking now of how poorly organized it is, in my view, which is a taxonomical problem, due to taxonophobia probably, not to a flaw in wiki. No time to discuss it further. --Bob From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Mar 3 06:59:59 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 06:59:59 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><4B8DDF26 .5030304@nut-n-but.net><04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC><4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4B8E4F3F.5080006@nut-n-but.net> Robin Hamilton wrote: >> But, Robin--Wikipoo is near-worthless. > > {Sorry, Bob, but the best that can be said about the above comment is > that it's uninformed bullshit. I would say the same for your comment, Robin. I would agree that my statement is hyperbolic, but more or less confirmed by what you go on to say. > > As to the sonnet ... Who actually *needs a Wiki on the sonnet? Seems > to me that's a classic case where a simple reference to the NPEPP > would more than suffice. > > Robin I thought the idea was to use the wiki procedure to teach people about poetry. That assumes people who don't know about it and want to know about it. A wiki on the sonnet would be for people who don't know what a sonnet is (like Hal). But, I would hope, it would also be for people who think they know what a sonnet is but only do in the limitedest of ways. It would also be for people like me, who do know quite a bit about the sonnet but would like to learn more. However, what I'm really suggesting is not necessarily a wiki on the sonnet but a wiki on some small relatively easy subject as a start rather than throwing all kinds of things into the Wiki--and making a Wikipedia of it--i.e., a disorganized clot much like New-Poetry (which is great for casual brain-storming but not so good for serious research). --Bob From david.weinstock at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 07:04:46 2010 From: david.weinstock at gmail.com (David Weinstock) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 07:04:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <4B8E4F3F.5080006@nut-n-but.net> References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <4B8E4F3F.5080006@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <437b1e3a1003030404r6e50cdd9ua9c5878b21dd333c@mail.gmail.com> "No better than the Encyclopedia Britannica" !!! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Mar 3 08:09:51 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 08:09:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <437b1e3a1003030404r6e50cdd9ua9c5878b21dd333c@mail.gmail.com> References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <4B8E4F3F.5080006@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a1003030404r6e50cdd9ua9c5878b21dd333c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B8E5F9F.3070709@nut-n-but.net> David Weinstock wrote: > "No better than the Encyclopedia Britannica" !!! Well, maybe it /is/ better than the Encyclopedia Britannica--but not by much. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Mar 3 08:59:46 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 08:59:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <4B8E5F9F.3070709@nut-n-but.net> References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC><4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net><4B8E4F3F.5080006@nut-n-but.net><437b1e3a1003030404r6e50cdd9ua9c5878b21dd333c@mail.gmail.com> <4B8E5F9F.3070709@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <80FAD16E8049499AA4050A55035EDBF6@RobinLaptopPC> The only serious (i.e. thorough and documented) study that I've come across -- and this was some (relatively, in Web terms) time ago, focusing on the scientific side of Wiki, found that it was a case of pretty much 50/50 between the two in terms of accuracy and coverage, with a slight edge marginally in favour of Wiki. However, Wiki incorporates a dynamic which allows it to expand and improve, the Encyclopaedia Britannica as far as I know doesn't. The OED seems to be part way between the two, user input heavily moderated (which might fit Bob's vision of the negativity of peer review). An obvious point is that Wiki is only as good as the people who contribute -- in some areas (language, say, and Shakespeare) it's pretty good, in others, it's inadequate, and in the area of (current) politics, the Wiki people don't seem yet to have solved the problem of self-interested accounts of the material under discussion. As for Bob's reply to me -- well, whichever one of us is talking bullshit, I'm not sure that we were finally that far apart when Bob expanded his own comment. Though one specific thing Bob sees as negative, I'd see as positive -- what he calls the peer review system, which seems to me to at least begin to address the problem of "weighting" or something, not all posts to Wiki being equal alas. (I've also not come across this exclusion myself, certainly not in the Mad Exclusive Self-Interested Scholars sense, but then I've never engaged with it as much as I ought to, partly because of what would be my serious objection, that the interface to lodge material and corrections is seriously fiddly. OK if you do it full time, and endure the learning curve, but for the Occasional User ... Well, at least for this one, seriously off-putting. Bob, have you examined the VizPo side of it, or tried to engage with this? I'd have thought that would be right down your alley. To be honest, this isn't something that I've gone to Wiki for myself. Hm, might check out what it has to say on Concrete Poetry, as a text case.) So to Bob's description, I'd say simply, "Yes, but ..." As to (narrow focus) sonnet vs (broad focus) teaching poetry on The Embryonic New Poetry Wiki, no reason why it shouldn't contain both. But, as Mrs. Beaton so famously said, let's first catch our chicken. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 8:09 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound David Weinstock wrote: "No better than the Encyclopedia Britannica" !!! Well, maybe it is better than the Encyclopedia Britannica--but not by much. --Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Wed Mar 3 09:04:42 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 06:04:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: References: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> <4B8CEE76.8010602@opus40.org> Message-ID: <465700.61043.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Interesting line-up, cris. How did you all decide on who to invite? And where is the archive for Meshworks - is it available to the public? Thanks, Amy ________________________________ From: cris cheek This spring we will host post_moot 2 and the list of participants incoming right now is as follows: Stan Apps, Oana Avasilichioaei, Mike Basinski, Holly Bass, John M. Bennett, Black Took Collective, Sean Bonney, Tammy Brown, Mairead Byrne, Sh? Cage, cris cheek, Daniel Citro, Alejandro Crawford, Maria Damon, Ian Davidson, Ryan Downey, Alan Golding, Nada Gordon, K. Lorraine Graham, Duriel Harris, Carla Harryman, Jeff Hilson, Jen, Hofer, William R. Howe, Jade Hudson, Christine Hume, Peter Jaeger, Mark Jeffery, Bonnie Jones, Pierre Joris, Adeena Karasick, Brian Kincaid, Rodney Koenecke, Jose Luna, Dawn Lundy-Martin, Mel Nichols, Hoa Nguyen, Chris Mann, Monica Mody, K. Silem Mohammad, Laura Moriarty, Judd Morrissey, Erin Moure, Tom Orange, Jessica Ponto, Luke Roberts, Jaime Robles, Stephen Rodefer, Ric Royer, Ken Rumble, Linda Russo, Lisa Samuels, Standard Schaefer, Jonathan Skinner, Danny Snelson, Todd Seabrook, Jessica Smith, Rod Smith, Kate Sopko, Fiona Templeton, Rodrigo Toscano, Laurence Upton, Chris Vitiello, Catherine Wagner, Mark Wallace, Dana Ward, Barrett Watten, Brian Whitener, Steve Willey, Tyrone Williams, Ronaldo Wilson i dunno. i think we have something interesting going on. We also have the MESHWORKS online archive of videotaped readings that is slowly growing into a serious resource . . . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Wed Mar 3 09:10:16 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 06:10:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: <4B8CEE76.8010602@opus40.org> References: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> <4B8CEE76.8010602@opus40.org> Message-ID: <762374.29142.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I teach at a community college. This fact, once presented, helps me discern who is worth hanging with at AWP. Tiers of degrees, teaching or attending, a good writer does not make. As someone surely has pointed out, it does help one learn about other writers and with the 'business' of making connections. G'morning, Amy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Wed Mar 3 09:14:56 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 06:14:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Reviewers wanted In-Reply-To: <4B8C885B.3010301@opus40.org> References: <8CC87AEED8844DD-5F64-4045@webmail-d037.sysops.aol.com> <4B8C885B.3010301@opus40.org> Message-ID: <8880.94168.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> May I risk embarrassing Tad and thank him for his public support evidenced in little text footprints all over the internet? Consistently so... I am interested in comments from you -- thanks, Tad! And Anny, I see her words of support (& her publication of so many of us) around every internet bend... thanks, Anny! Amy ________________________________ From: TheOldMole I just got it -- read it -- will gladly post my comments on Amazon, although I don't know who else is much interested in a review from me. I liked the book a lot. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Wed Mar 3 09:16:26 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 09:16:26 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <80FAD16E8049499AA4050A55035EDBF6@RobinLaptopPC> References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <4B8E4F3F.5080006@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a1003030404r6e50cdd9ua9c5878b21dd333c@mail.gmail.com> <4B8E5F9F.3070709@nut-n-but.net> <80FAD16E8049499AA4050A55035EDBF6@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: I'm a little lost here. Wasn't the goal to create lists of poetry in English that the various of us think essential because we've loved/learned from it? Wiki is just a tool to reproduce the results. I strongly recommend that we save contemporary poetry for another set of lists. For one thing, if I were to list contemporary work I think essential some members of this list would be on it and others not. I'm usually recklessly outspoken, but really. My own taste would be for the radically pared-down. I personally wouldn't include Browning, for instance, not that I don't like a lot of the work, but it hasn't changed my life or my writing. And to hell with anyone who thinks the list reflects personal quirks. That's the point, no? Best, Mark At 08:59 AM 3/3/2010, you wrote: >??? >The only serious (i.e. thorough and documented) >study that I've come across -- and this was some >(relatively, in Web terms) time ago, focusing on >the scientific side of Wiki, found that it was a >case of pretty much 50/50 between the two in >terms of accuracy and coverage, with a slight >edge marginally in favour of Wiki. However, >Wiki incorporates a dynamic which allows it to >expand and improve, the Encyclopaedia Britannica >as far as I know doesn't. The OED seems to be >part way between the two, user input heavily >moderated (which might fit Bob's vision of the negativity of peer review). > >An obvious point is that Wiki is only as good as >the people who contribute -- in some areas >(language, say, and Shakespeare) it's pretty >good, in others, it's inadequate, and in the >area of (current) politics, the Wiki people >don't seem yet to have solved the problem of >self-interested accounts of the material under discussion. > >As for Bob's reply to me -- well, whichever one >of us is talking bullshit, I'm not sure that we >were finally that far apart when Bob expanded >his own comment. Though one specific thing Bob >sees as negative, I'd see as positive -- what he >calls the peer review system, which seems to me >to at least begin to address the problem of >"weighting" or something, not all posts to Wiki being equal alas. > >(I've also not come across this exclusion >myself, certainly not in the Mad Exclusive >Self-Interested Scholars sense, but then I've >never engaged with it as much as I ought to, >partly because of what would be my serious >objection, that the interface to lodge material >and corrections is seriously fiddly. OK if you >do it full time, and endure the learning curve, >but for the Occasional User ... Well, at least >for this one, seriously off-putting. Bob, have >you examined the VizPo side of it, or tried to >engage with this? I'd have thought that would >be right down your alley. To be honest, this >isn't something that I've gone to Wiki for >myself. Hm, might check out what it has to say >on Concrete Poetry, as a text case.) > >So to Bob's description, I'd say simply, "Yes, but ..." > >As to (narrow focus) sonnet vs (broad focus) >teaching poetry on The Embryonic New Poetry >Wiki, no reason why it shouldn't contain both. > >But, as Mrs. Beaton so famously said, let's first catch our chicken. > >Robin > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Bob Grumman >To: >NewPoetry: >Contemporary Poetry News &Views >Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 8:09 AM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound > >David Weinstock wrote: >>"No better than the Encyclopedia Britannica" !!! >Well, maybe it is better than the Encyclopedia Britannica--but not by much. > >--Bob > > >---------- >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Wed Mar 3 09:24:16 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 09:24:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <4B8E4F3F.5080006@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a1003030404r6e50cdd9ua9c5878b21dd333c@mail.gmail.com> <4B8E5F9F.3070709@nut-n-but.net> <80FAD16E8049499AA4050A55035EDBF6@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: I suspect that lists will differentiate, at least until recent generations, more by what they exclude than by what they include. The standard canon wasn't all that far off. At 09:16 AM 3/3/2010, you wrote: >I'm a little lost here. Wasn't the goal to >create lists of poetry in English that the >various of us think essential because we've >loved/learned from it? Wiki is just a tool to reproduce the results. > >I strongly recommend that we save contemporary >poetry for another set of lists. For one thing, >if I were to list contemporary work I think >essential some members of this list would be on >it and others not. I'm usually recklessly outspoken, but really. > >My own taste would be for the radically >pared-down. I personally wouldn't include >Browning, for instance, not that I don't like a >lot of the work, but it hasn't changed my life >or my writing. And to hell with anyone who >thinks the list reflects personal quirks. That's the point, no? > >Best, > >Mark > >At 08:59 AM 3/3/2010, you wrote: >>??? >>The only serious (i.e. thorough and documented) >>study that I've come across -- and this was >>some (relatively, in Web terms) time ago, >>focusing on the scientific side of Wiki, found >>that it was a case of pretty much 50/50 between >>the two in terms of accuracy and coverage, with >>a slight edge marginally in favour of >>Wiki. However, Wiki incorporates a dynamic >>which allows it to expand and improve, the >>Encyclopaedia Britannica as far as I know >>doesn't. The OED seems to be part way between >>the two, user input heavily moderated (which >>might fit Bob's vision of the negativity of peer review). >> >>An obvious point is that Wiki is only as good >>as the people who contribute -- in some areas >>(language, say, and Shakespeare) it's pretty >>good, in others, it's inadequate, and in the >>area of (current) politics, the Wiki people >>don't seem yet to have solved the problem of >>self-interested accounts of the material under discussion. >> >>As for Bob's reply to me -- well, whichever one >>of us is talking bullshit, I'm not sure that we >>were finally that far apart when Bob expanded >>his own comment. Though one specific thing Bob >>sees as negative, I'd see as positive -- what >>he calls the peer review system, which seems to >>me to at least begin to address the problem of >>"weighting" or something, not all posts to Wiki being equal alas. >> >>(I've also not come across this exclusion >>myself, certainly not in the Mad Exclusive >>Self-Interested Scholars sense, but then I've >>never engaged with it as much as I ought to, >>partly because of what would be my serious >>objection, that the interface to lodge material >>and corrections is seriously fiddly. OK if you >>do it full time, and endure the learning curve, >>but for the Occasional User ... Well, at least >>for this one, seriously off-putting. Bob, have >>you examined the VizPo side of it, or tried to >>engage with this? I'd have thought that would >>be right down your alley. To be honest, this >>isn't something that I've gone to Wiki for >>myself. Hm, might check out what it has to say >>on Concrete Poetry, as a text case.) >> >>So to Bob's description, I'd say simply, "Yes, but ..." >> >>As to (narrow focus) sonnet vs (broad focus) >>teaching poetry on The Embryonic New Poetry >>Wiki, no reason why it shouldn't contain both. >> >>But, as Mrs. Beaton so famously said, let's first catch our chicken. >> >>Robin >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: Bob Grumman >>To: >>NewPoetry: >>Contemporary Poetry News &Views >>Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 8:09 AM >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound >>David Weinstock wrote: >>>"No better than the Encyclopedia Britannica" !!! >>Well, maybe it is better than the Encyclopedia Britannica--but not by much. >>--Bob >> >> >>---------- >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of >Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's >Random House Book of Twentieth Century French >Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively >broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside >the United States and also created a superb >collection of foreign poems in English. There is >nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Mar 3 10:02:23 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 10:02:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <80FAD16E8049499AA4050A55035EDBF6@RobinLaptopPC> References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><04605DDC E40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC><4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net><4B8E4F3 F.5080006@nut-n-but.net><437b1e3a1003030404r6e50cdd9ua9c5878b21dd333c@mail.gmail.com><4B8E5F9F.3070709@nut-n-but.net> <80FAD16E8049499AA4050A55035EDBF6@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4B8E79FF.1050000@nut-n-but.net> Robin Hamilton wrote: > The only serious (i.e. thorough and documented) study that I've come > across -- and this was some (relatively, in Web terms) time ago, > focusing on the scientific side of Wiki, found that it was a case of > pretty much 50/50 between the two in terms of accuracy and coverage, > with a slight edge marginally in favour of Wiki. However, Wiki > incorporates a dynamic which allows it to expand and improve, the > Encyclopaedia Britannica as far as I know doesn't. The OED seems to > be part way between the two, user input heavily moderated (which might > fit Bob's vision of the negativity of peer review). > > An obvious point is that Wiki is only as good as the people who > contribute -- in some areas (language, say, and Shakespeare) it's > pretty good, in others, it's inadequate, and in the area of (current) > politics, the Wiki people don't seem yet to have solved the problem of > self-interested accounts of the material under discussion. > > As for Bob's reply to me -- well, whichever one of us is talking > bullshit, I'm not sure that we were finally that far apart when Bob > expanded his own comment. Though one specific thing Bob sees as > negative, I'd see as positive -- what he calls the peer review system, > which seems to me to at least begin to address the problem of > "weighting" or something, not all posts to Wiki being equal alas. Oh, I'm in favor of peer-review the way I'm in favor of Wilshberia; I just want a lot more than it. > > (I've also not come across this exclusion myself, certainly not in the > Mad Exclusive Self-Interested Scholars sense, but then I've never > engaged with it as much as I ought to, partly because of what would be > my serious objection, that the interface to lodge material and > corrections is seriously fiddly. OK if you do it full time, and > endure the learning curve, but for the Occasional User ... Well, at > least for this one, seriously off-putting. Bob, have you examined the > VizPo side of it, or tried to engage with this? I'd have thought that > would be right down your alley. To be honest, this isn't something > that I've gone to Wiki for myself. Hm, might check out what it has to > say on Concrete Poetry, as a text case.) > I can't remember if I ever investigated what Wiki has about vizpo. I did get involved with what it had a few years ago about haiku, and didn't think much of it--although I was quoted for a while in the official entry; may still be. I've used it at times, but found that whenever I looked up anything to do with one of my specialties, what I found seemed lame. And I was much annoyed when the policy of no discrimination was changed. > So to Bob's description, I'd say simply, "Yes, but ..." > > As to (narrow focus) sonnet vs (broad focus) teaching poetry on The > Embryonic New Poetry Wiki, no reason why it shouldn't contain both. > > But, as Mrs. Beaton so famously said, let's first catch our chicken. > > Robin It will be an interesting experiment. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 09:59:49 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 15:59:49 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Reviewers wanted In-Reply-To: <8880.94168.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <8CC87AEED8844DD-5F64-4045@webmail-d037.sysops.aol.com> <4B8C885B.3010301@opus40.org> <8880.94168.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003030659x7fbd7f87v408b3550daacf33e@mail.gmail.com> :-) my pleasure, thank you Amy. Anny On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 3:14 PM, amy king wrote: > May I risk embarrassing Tad and thank him for his public support evidenced > in little text footprints all over the internet? Consistently so... > > I am interested in comments from you -- thanks, Tad! > > And Anny, I see her words of support (& her publication of so many of us) > around every internet bend... thanks, Anny! > > Amy > > ------------------------------ > *From:* TheOldMole > > I just got it -- read it -- will gladly post my comments on Amazon, > although I don't know who else is much interested in a review from me. I > liked the book a lot. > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Mar 3 10:03:53 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 10:03:53 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC><4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net><4B8E4F3F.5080006@nut-n-but.net><437b1e3a1003030404r6e50cdd9ua9c5878b21dd333c@mail.gmail.com><4B8E5F9F.3070709@nut-n-but.net><80FAD16E8049499AA4050A55035EDBF6@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: How about partitioning -- controversial vs. non-controversial (if there is such a thing), say, or informational vs. [something else]? The Big Wiki seems to be directed towards a correct consensus judgement, which is OK in some ways, but does mean that you end up with only one view -- a passage can be changed, replaced, reinstated (ad infinitum), but there's no layering. Actually, a Poetry Wiki might exactly model itself on what Big Wiki *doesn't include, or direct towards that when necessary -- "If you want to know the dates of birth and death of X and what she wrote, go here." Or even generate a commentary on Big Wiki. Part of it is about (it seems to me) organising the input of information. There is, for example, a hell of a lot of material on the Mudcat website with regard to (a certain type of) folksong, but the structure of the site makes it almost impossible to get anything serious out of it, at least without a hell of a lot of effort. Possibilities, possibilities, all gods chickuns got possibilities ... Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 9:16 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound I'm a little lost here. Wasn't the goal to create lists of poetry in English that the various of us think essential because we've loved/learned from it? Wiki is just a tool to reproduce the results. I strongly recommend that we save contemporary poetry for another set of lists. For one thing, if I were to list contemporary work I think essential some members of this list would be on it and others not. I'm usually recklessly outspoken, but really. My own taste would be for the radically pared-down. I personally wouldn't include Browning, for instance, not that I don't like a lot of the work, but it hasn't changed my life or my writing. And to hell with anyone who thinks the list reflects personal quirks. That's the point, no? Best, Mark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Wed Mar 3 10:59:39 2010 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 06:59:39 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <4B8E4F3F.5080006@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a1003030404r6e50cdd9ua9c5878b21dd333c@mail.gmail.com> <4B8E5F9F.3070709@nut-n-but.net> <80FAD16E8049499AA4050A55035EDBF6@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 5:16 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > I'm a little lost here. Wasn't the goal to create lists of poetry in English > that the various of us think essential because we've loved/learned from it? > Wiki is just a tool to reproduce the results. That's what *I* am looking for. The poetry wiki whatever seems to be taking on a life of its own. Which is cool, but doesn't achieve my own selfish ends. c From chris at chrislott.org Wed Mar 3 11:02:35 2010 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 07:02:35 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > I don't know enough about what pre-set templates for Wikis are around to > make an informed comment on Chris's statement below, which was why I earlier > threw the question over to the list, where Crisman picked it up. > > However, I'm delighted to know that the concept is percolating so far down > the intellectual food chain. My professional work is centered around social and collaborative technologies in education. Wikis are big for collaborating, process writing, living documents, etc. I'm no tech determinist-- wikis are just a means to an end. I hope the idea takes off, but I'm just looking for guidance... c From bircumplus at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 3 11:26:00 2010 From: bircumplus at yahoo.co.uk (David Bircumshaw) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 16:26:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><4B8DDF26.5030304@nut-n-but.net><04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <494505.82544.qm@web28503.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> >As to the sonnet ...? Who actually *needs a Wiki on the sonnet?? Seems to me that's a classic case where a simple reference to the NPEPP would more than suffice. Robin< Hey Rob, just in passing, but I was at a reading in November where someone (who is doing an MA in Creative Writing) intoduced a sonnet with comments that she had to do this?at her tutor's behest so she'd looked up the sonnet on Wikipedia to find out about it ... ?David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com ________________________________ From: Robin Hamilton To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Wed, 3 March, 2010 7:43:02 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound > But, Robin--Wikipoo is near-worthless. {Sorry, Bob, but the best that can be said about the above comment is that it's uninformed bullshit.? It's also, if you think about it, actually a nonsense statement, like saying that "most words in French are mis-spelled."} Depends where you bite it -- the language section(s) of Wiki, in particular, are rather good, and getting better all the time, is my impression, since a lot of engaged language specialists check it out regularly. Other bits are of course utter crap, though you could say the same about virtually any encyclopaedia. And anyone who uses Wiki as a *final reference source needs their head examined.? It's a starting point, and in that area getting better and better. But thats not entirely the issue.? It's the Wiki model I'm suggesting, which is still sort of evolving, both as a model and in the Big Wiki itself. > And the sonnet would attract enough people to get started and would make it easy to iron out the flaws. As to the sonnet ...? Who actually *needs a Wiki on the sonnet?? Seems to me that's a classic case where a simple reference to the NPEPP would more than suffice. Robin _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 11:44:42 2010 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 08:44:42 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: the academia jobs wiki is on wikia, which is very simple http://www.wikia.com/Wikia if you're frustrated that a wikipedia article isn't as good as you know you could make it -- well, that's no one's fault but your own, since you're supposed to log in and write a better article the trick is to come up with a way to do the topics sounds more like a mapping exercise than something linear http://www.thebrain.com/ however, as a straw outline before I start work teaching poetry wiki I. background 1. utility of teaching traditional forms a. list of forms and poems to use to teach them -- prosody resources -- poetics resources b. a list of poems and how they work and don't vis a vis form 2. utility of teaching other works vs. student work a. who else to teach and why 1) the canon in English 2) the Classics 3) contemporary work a) anthologies b) individual books of poems b. ways to discuss student work 3. content a. relationship to other works b. experience/phenomenology c. ideas, material culture, critical theory 4. utility of exercises, craft work, assignments a. sample exercises b. sample carft work c. sample assignments 5. reference works, grammar, punctuation, syntax II. syllabi 1. standards, grading, evaluation, comment 2. reading and writing requirements 3. in class critique 4. other III. outcomes a. publication -- groups of poems -- submissions -- chapbooks -- manuscripts --audio -- video b. other poetry groups c. self assignment d. inspiration/talent -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Mar 3 11:44:14 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 11:44:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC><4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> > My professional work is centered around social and collaborative > technologies in education. Wikis are big for collaborating, process > writing, living documents, etc. > > I'm no tech determinist-- wikis are just a means to an end. I hope the > idea takes off, but I'm just looking for guidance... > > c Concur entirely, Chris, and looks as if you know more than me about the nuts and bolts in this area. Wiki as a tool for managing collaboration, perhaps? I think I keep on coming back to the Big Wiki mostly because its (with whatever hesitations and qualifications) *successful. So let's build on a model of proved success. For me Wiki provides a model of success, whereas blogs, at least as they stand at the moment, are pretty much of a total dead end when it comes to managing, collaborating, and focusing. Glorified diaries, most of them, for all of me, and if I want to read an op-ed column, I'd open the pages of the NYT. Ah, done it again -- told myself I'd try not to be *gratuitously offensive. OK, add to the above negative comment on blogs, "present company excepted." Robin From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Mar 3 13:18:25 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 13:18:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wiki In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><04605DDC E40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC><4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4B8EA7F1.6020301@nut-n-but.net> Catherine Daly wrote: > the academia jobs wiki is on wikia, which is very simple > http://www.wikia.com/Wikia > > if you're frustrated that a wikipedia article isn't as good as you > know you could make it -- well, that's no one's fault but your own, > since you're supposed to log in and write a better article > Easier said than done. I found it difficult a few years ago when I tried to improve a Wiki entry on E. E. Cummings. Then some goof improved my improvement out of the text. I noticed then that there's no guarantee that some article you write will pass the peer review. --Bob. > the trick is to come up with a way to do the topics > > sounds more like a mapping exercise than something linear > http://www.thebrain.com/ > > however, as a straw outline before I start work > > teaching poetry wiki > > I. background > 1. utility of teaching traditional forms > a. list of forms and poems to use to teach them > -- prosody resources > -- poetics resources > b. a list of poems and how they work and don't vis a vis form > 2. utility of teaching other works vs. student work > a. who else to teach and why > 1) the canon in English > 2) the Classics > 3) contemporary work > a) anthologies > b) individual books of poems > b. ways to discuss student work > 3. content > a. relationship to other works > b. experience/phenomenology > c. ideas, material culture, critical theory > 4. utility of exercises, craft work, assignments > a. sample exercises > b. sample carft work > c. sample assignments > > 5. reference works, grammar, punctuation, syntax > > > II. syllabi > 1. standards, grading, evaluation, comment > 2. reading and writing requirements > 3. in class critique > 4. other > > III. outcomes > a. publication > -- groups of poems > -- submissions > -- chapbooks > -- manuscripts > --audio > -- video > b. other poetry groups > c. self assignment > d. inspiration/talent > From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Mar 3 13:25:58 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 13:25:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><04605DDC E40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC><4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net><4B8E4F3 F.5080006@nut-n-but.net><437b1e3a1003030404r6e50cdd9ua9c5878b21dd333c@mail.gmail.com><4B8E5F9F.3070709@nut-n-but.net><80FAD16E8 049499AA4050A55035EDBF6@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4B8EA9B6.80605@nut-n-but.net> Robin Hamilton wrote: > How about partitioning -- controversial vs. non-controversial (if > there is such a thing), say, or informational vs. [something else]? Among my ideas long mentioned here and elsewhere would be four levels of information. Everything would be peer reviewed, then divided into three categories: peer-accepted, peer-rejected and peer-condemned. The last would be incomprehensible, clearly irrational or untrue material. The middle one would simply be material not up to academic standards for some reason. My fourth level would consist of what reader, by voting, find the most interesting from the other three levels. A user could have various search options: all levels, just one, or some combination of two or three. The real trick would be to devise s system of tagging or indexing, and that in the case of poetry would require TAH DAH a list of schools of poetry. Among much else. --Bob > > The Big Wiki seems to be directed towards a correct consensus > judgement, which is OK in some ways, but does mean that you end up > with only one view -- a passage can be changed, replaced, reinstated > (ad infinitum), but there's no layering. > > Actually, a Poetry Wiki might exactly model itself on what Big Wiki > *doesn't include, or direct towards that when necessary -- "If you > want to know the dates of birth and death of X and what she wrote, go > here." Or even generate a commentary on Big Wiki. > > Part of it is about (it seems to me) organising the input of > information. There is, for example, a hell of a lot of material on > the Mudcat website with regard to (a certain type of) folksong, but > the structure of the site makes it almost impossible to get anything > serious out of it, at least without a hell of a lot of effort. > > Possibilities, possibilities, all gods chickuns got possibilities ... > > Robin > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Mark Weiss > *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 03, 2010 9:16 AM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound > > I'm a little lost here. Wasn't the goal to create lists of poetry > in English that the various of us think essential because we've > loved/learned from it? Wiki is just a tool to reproduce the results. > > I strongly recommend that we save contemporary poetry for another > set of lists. For one thing, if I were to list contemporary work I > think essential some members of this list would be on it and > others not. I'm usually recklessly outspoken, but really. > > My own taste would be for the radically pared-down. I personally > wouldn't include Browning, for instance, not that I don't like a > lot of the work, but it hasn't changed my life or my writing. And > to hell with anyone who thinks the list reflects personal quirks. > That's the point, no? > > Best, > > Mark > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Mar 3 13:41:19 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 13:41:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><04605DDC E40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC><4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net><4B8E4F3 F.5080006@nut-n-but.net><437b1e3a1003030404r6e50cdd9ua9c5878b21dd333c@mail.gmail.com><4B8E5F9F.3070709@nut-n-but.net><80FAD16E8 049499AA4050A55035EDBF6@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4B8EAD4F.4070408@nut-n-but.net> Robin Hamilton wrote: > How about partitioning -- controversial vs. non-controversial (if > there is such a thing), say, or informational vs. [something else]? Follow-up idea: make it easy for each user to have a search engine made that would go only to entries the user approved. Or that a group of users (the peers, for instance) approved. Another user could use any such search engine he wanted, so someone familiar with and approving of Ron Sillimans' writings might use his search engine rather than mine. You could even have search engines that only search for search engines of a certain type--if a list of schools of poetry, for example, were available. Ultimately, there's my old idea, a variation on which I got published in /American Book Review/ long ago as a guest editorial, where a user answers a questionnaire (as at a dating service) and is sent to search engines on the basis of his answers. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 14:04:29 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 20:04:29 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Henry James and the Poetics of Duplicity Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003031104n86d5b40j2c4dd27e21189992@mail.gmail.com> CALL FOR PAPERS 2010 *The second international conference of The European Society of Jamesian Studies* *22, 23 October 2010* *The American University of Paris, *6 rue du Colonel Combe, *75007 Paris.* * Henry James and the Poetics of Duplicity * ?Inquities in such a country somehow always made pictures? (?A London Life?, *Complete *Tales, Vol. VII, Leon Edel ed.p. 88). Pondering over the contrast between the picturesque serenity of an old dower-house and the scandalous custom of the expropriation of the widow it embodied , the American heroine of the story entitled ?A London Life? expresses her unfavourable judgment of English institutions but is also overwhelmed and puzzled by the sense of a ?*curious duplicity (in the literal meaning of the word)*? : ?She had often been struck with it before - with that perfection of machinery which can still at certain times make English life go on of itself with a stately rhythm long after there is corruption within it? (?A London Life?, *Complete Tales,* Leon Edel ed., p.105). Figures of duplicity abound in Henry James?s writings, both in form and contents, fiction and non -fiction, disrupting the established order, the normative vision or the canonic genre. ?Successful duplicity? characterizes some of James?s achievements in the domain of short fiction ? the way some *nouvelles* or ?novels intensely compressed? managed to ?masquerade? as anecdotes to be accepted as ?good? short stories, ?heroically? dissimulating their ?capital?. (Preface to Vol. XVI ot the New York Edition, *Literary Criticism * II, p. 1240). The art of ?duplicity? is also part of the lesson of Balzac, and other supposedly canonic realist writers whose complex vision ?washes us successively with the warm wave of the near and the familiar? and the tonic shock of the far and the strange.(pr?face to vol. II, *Literary Criticism*, p. 1060). Duplicity also pertains to the ghostly and the uncanny effect, the double register of representations embroidering ?the stange and sinister? on ?the very type of the normal and easy? (preface to vol. XVII , *Literary Criticism*, p. 1264). We propose to examine the multiple facets of Henry James?s art of duplicity in both fiction and non-fiction, not forgetting the aesthetic borderlands where text and paratext coalesce, the clandestine figure of the author, ?marking off?, as Foucault would have it, ?the edges of the text?. (? What is an Author ? ?, in *Textual Strategies*., J.H. Harrari ed., Cornell UP, 1979, p.147) Annick Duperray, Universit? de Provence, annick.duperray at free.fr Adrian Harding, Universit? de Provence & American University of Paris, aharding at aup.fr Dennis Tredy, Universit? de Paris 3 (Sorbonne Nouvelle) dennis.tredy at wanadoo.fr *Please send proposals (300 words maximum,) to **Annick.duperray at free.fr* & *aharding at aup.fr* *. Deadline 1 June 2010.* * * Working languages : English or French -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 14:06:32 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 20:06:32 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Buffalo Bill and Europe Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003031106k50286541uc8259bf9b8dbffa5@mail.gmail.com> *The Papers of William F Cody at Buffalo Bill Historical Center and the* *Department of Modern Languages: Centre for Translation and Intercultural Studies present the First International Cody Studies Conference* * * *Buffalo Bill and Europe *is the first in a series of international conferences being sponsored by * * *The Papers of William F. Cody**, *a project of the McCracken Research Library at the Buffalo Bill Historical Center, Cody, Wyoming. The aim of the project is to bring together William F. Cody and his legendary persona, Buffalo Bill, in a digital archive and associated texts, to form the most authoritative collection of its kind and, in doing so, to provide a breadth and depth of information offering an invaluable record of late nineteenth- and early-twentieth century American national development that has not previously been available in a single source. *The Papers of William F. Cody **will *therefore offer both specialist researchers and a wider audience an unequaled opportunity to see - through the vision of Buffalo Bill - the expansion and growth of the American West. This conference also marks the launch of the associated texts, which will be published by the University of Nebraska Press in two series: *Cody Papers*, comprising primary and key contemporary secondary sources; and *Cody Studies *, comprising scholarly studies on William F. Cody and his work. * * *?Making these papers available to the public gives us added insight into this fascinating man who has long been identified with our great state. Buffalo Bill's larger-than-life persona and his restless, roaming spirit made him a legend in his own time and a elebrated folk hero today. With this collection, the Buffalo Bill Historical Center continues to broaden our understanding of Buffalo Bill's character and to expand its role as a key center of study of the American West."* ?*Dave Freudenthal,* *Governor of Wyoming* * * *Contact: *Professional Development Unit, University of Strathclyde, 76 Southbrae Drive, Glasgow, G13 1PP Tel: +44 (0)141 950 3033 / Fax: +44 (0)141 950 3210 / Email: ashley.jackson at strath.ac.uk 0900 - 0920 Registration 0920 - 0940 Welcome and Introduction ? City of Glasgow 0940 - 1020 *Advance Work: Art and Advertising in Buffalo Bill?s Wild West* Michelle Delaney, Smithsonian Institution 1020 - 1100 *Pulp Fiction and the Making of Buffalo Bill, *Brett Flehinger, Harvard University 1100 - 1120 Morning break 1120 - 1200 *The Wild West Side of American Existence: Buffalo Bill and Theodore Roosevelt as Cultural Ambassadors of the American Frontier Experience, *Jeremy Johnston, Northwest College 1200 - 1240 *Four Centuries of the Native Exploration of Europe, From Diego Col?n to Short Bull,*Larry Cebula, Eastern Washington University 1240 - 1340 Lunch 1340 - 1420 *Nationalism in a Transnational Context: The Making of America in Cody?s ?The Wild West in England? *Frank Christianson, Brigham Young University 1420 - 1500 *The Wild West in Europe and the Funding of Cody?s Investments in the West, *John Rumm, Buffalo Bill Historical Center 1500 - 1520 Afternoon break 1520 - 1600 *The Reception of Buffalo Bill?s Wild West in Barcelona (1889-90) and Trieste (1906),*Chris Dixon*, *University of Strathclyde 1600 - 1640 ?*And Still He Rides?? Transnational Celebrity and the Death of Buffalo Bill*, Gretchen Adams, Texas Tech University 1640 - 1700 Plenary and evening instructions On the Thursday Evening there will be an *Inaugural Reception *for the *Cody Papers Series *and the *Cody Studies Series *being published by University of Nebraska Press in conjunction with *The Papers of William F Cody *project, featuring the *European Book Launch *of Chris Dixon?s new edition of Charles E Griffin?s *Four Years in Europe with Buffalo Bill*. * * *Conference Programme* *Thursday 3rd June 2010* 0930 - 0940 Welcome ? University of Strathclyde 0940 - 1025 *Cody and the Curriculum, *Maryanne Andrus and Kurt Graham, Buffalo Bill Historical Center 1025 - 1110 *William F. Cody and the Digital Frontier, *Douglas Seefeldt, Brent Rogers and Jason Heppler, University of Nebraska-Lincoln 1110 - 1130 Morning Break 1130 - 1230 Keynote Address: *Buffalo Bill and the Paris World's Fair of 1889,* Jill Jonnes, Author of *Eiffel?s Tower* 1230 - 1330 Lunch 1330 - 1530 Travel to Evening Venue 1530 - 1630 Round Table with Students 1630 - 1700 Plenary and evening instructions On the Friday evening there will be a Conference Dinner with live entertainment provided by *Cowboy Celtic*. [Limited number of places, additional fee applies] * * * * *Friday 4th June 2010* *Buffalo Bill and Europe* *Application Form* Surname: ???????????????.. Forename: ??.???????????????.?. Organisation: ??????????????????????????????????????...?? Job Title: ???????????????????????????????????????..??.... Address: ????????????????????????????????????????...?? ????????????????????????????????????????????..?.?. ????????????????????????????????????????????...??. Tel: ???????. Fax: ???????. Email: ???.?????????????..?. *Special Needs/Dietary Requirements* If you have any dietary or accessibility requirements, please detail below: ??????????????????????????????????????????.???.?. *Conference Fees* Delegates - ?10 Dinner - ?50 (BBHC Members) Delegates - Free Dinner - ?30 I enclose a cheque for ??.. made payable to the University of Strathclyde (drawn on a British Bank) or invoice me at the above address or debit fee from the following credit/debit card: (charges - 1.2% visa/mastercard - 3.3% amex - 2.95% diners club - no charge for debit cards) Credit/Debit Card: Visa Mastercard Amex D.Club Visa Debit (please tick) Card Number Valid ?.../?... Expiry ?.../?... Card Holder?s Name: ????........................................................................................................................ (as shown on card) Signature of Card Holder: ?............................................................................................................................ Cardholders Statement Address: ?................................................................ Postcode: ...................... *Please send completed application forms to: *Ashley Jackson, Professional Development Unit, University of Strathclyde, 76 Southbrae Drive, Glasgow, G13 1PP Tel: +44 (0)141 950 3033 Fax: +44 (0)141 950 3210 Email: ashley.jackson at strath.ac.uk ------------------------------ -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 14:11:00 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 20:11:00 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?windows-1252?q?=93Poets_and_Publishers=3A_Circula?= =?windows-1252?q?ting_Avant-Garde_Poetry_=281945-2010=29=94?= Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003031111h719d34ep839952779ad36131@mail.gmail.com> *Call for Papers (international conference, Universit? du Maine, Le Mans, France, 14-16 October 2010)* * ?Poets and Publishers: Circulating Avant-Garde Poetry (1945-2010)?* In the second half of the 20th century and the first decade of the 21st, the material conditions of avant-garde poetry?s circulation have come to the attention of critics. With the development of reader-response theory, research about the poets? ways of informing the larger public of their experiments has come to encompass technical considerations, economic, social and political preoccupations. Small presses?not the vanity presses of former times?thus became the laboratories of the publishing world, picking up on the latest avant-garde movements. How do these publishers, and the poets who entrust their works to them, contribute to poetic innovation in a publishing context marked by commercial decline of the book and the poem alike? To what extent do small presses convey aesthetic initiatives that would otherwise remain ?readerless?? Could one talk, along with American poet Barrett Watten of a ?systemic de-totalization? bringing about new configurations of the poetic landscape into networks and archipelagoes? We are inviting papers that will risk answers to these questions in the context of a wider reflection on the publishing world, its margins and its objects, notably poetic texts inspired and shaped by the recent advances of sociology, philosophy and cultural studies. The aim is a global assessment of the circulation of avant-garde poetry. 300-word proposals in either English, French or Spanish to H?l?ne AJI (Universit? du Maine, France, Helene.Aji at univ-lemans.fr) and Manuel BRITO (Universidad de La Laguna, Canary Islands, Spain, mbrito at ull.es) by 31 March 2010. -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 14:15:35 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 20:15:35 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?windows-1252?q?Text_and_Context=3A_Toni_Morrison?= =?windows-1252?q?=92s_Life_and_Work_=28essay_collection=29=2E?= Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003031115w2c21fc69x764e3f2c0104fb88@mail.gmail.com> >From: Ana Nunes [mailto:Ana.Nunes at ucd.ie ] Call for Papers: Text and Context: Toni Morrison?s Life and Work (essay collection). In 2004, Morrison was commissioned to write forewords to a new edition of her novels. In these Morrison, a writer who normally refutes the confluence between autobiography and creative work, describes her writing process as made up of research, imagination, and memory. The main objective of this project is to examine Morrison?s writing in terms of her life and times and help to locate Morrison?s work in the context a life dedicated not only to writing, but also to editing and publishing, teaching, social criticism and political activism. Contributions are currently being sought for a forthcoming collection of essays exploring the ways Morrison?s life has informed both her writing and her perspective on critical aspects such as race, class, and gender. If you are interested in being a part of this project, please forward a 300-word abstract by April 20th, 2010. The abstract submission should contain the author?s name, institution, and the working title of the proposed essay. Submitted manuscripts should be original work, not concurrently submitted to any other publication. Final essays will be due by August 20th, 2010. The length of a submitted paper should be between 20-25 pages. Please send your proposal and a brief bio to ana.nunes at fl.uc.pt Dr Ana Nunes Instituto de Estudos Norte-Americanos Faculdade de Letras University of Coimbra Largo da Porta F?rrea 3004-530 Coimbra Portugal -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Wed Mar 3 15:37:48 2010 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 11:37:48 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 7:44 AM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > So let's build on a model of proved success. ?For me Wiki provides a model > of success, whereas blogs, at least as they stand at the moment, are pretty > much of a total dead end when it comes to managing, collaborating, and > focusing. ?Glorified diaries, most of them, for all of me, and if I want to > read an op-ed column, I'd open the pages of the NYT. > > Ah, done it again -- told myself I'd try not to be *gratuitously offensive. > ?OK, add to the above negative comment on blogs, "present company > excepted." Blogs are certainly not the best place for the kind of collaborative activity it sounds like might happen here... I find a lot of compelling stuff out there in blogland, but it has taken me a while to find those that fit me, and the result is a constantly evolving set. And if I just surfed 'old school' to each one in my browser hoping for new content, etc. it would drive me crazy. That's what Google Reader and other such applications were made for. c From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Mar 3 16:21:15 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 16:21:15 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><04605DDC E40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC><4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4B8ED2CB.4090509@nut-n-but.net> Robin Hamilton wrote: >> My professional work is centered around social and collaborative >> technologies in education. Wikis are big for collaborating, process >> writing, living documents, etc. >> >> I'm no tech determinist-- wikis are just a means to an end. I hope the >> idea takes off, but I'm just looking for guidance... >> >> c > > Concur entirely, Chris, and looks as if you know more than me about > the nuts and bolts in this area. Wiki as a tool for managing > collaboration, perhaps? I think I keep on coming back to the Big Wiki > mostly because its (with whatever hesitations and qualifications) > *successful. > > So let's build on a model of proved success. For me Wiki provides a > model of success, whereas blogs, at least as they stand at the moment, > are pretty much of a total dead end when it comes to managing, > collaborating, and focusing. Glorified diaries, most of them, for all > of me, and if I want to read an op-ed column, I'd open the pages of > the NYT. > > Ah, done it again -- told myself I'd try not to be *gratuitously > offensive. OK, add to the above negative comment on blogs, > "present company excepted." > > Robin Poop on you, anyway, Robin. Blogs are not s'posed to be anything other than op/ed, although they can be. A near-perfect search engine could make a first-rate Wiki out of what's out there in blogville. To be my usual arrogant self, I do believe that five to ten of my 2000 or so blog entries present valuable information that is nowhere else available, period. But, to be a little less arrogant about it, I believe the same is true about a rare few of others' blog entries--and, prepare to go goggle-eyed, certain rare entries of many people to discussion groups like New-Poetry. --Blogabobber From junction at earthlink.net Wed Mar 3 16:55:25 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 16:55:25 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: Let's by all means make this as complex as possible. How about whoever wants to makes a list, all the lists are collated, and the name of each person who suggested a given poet appear after the poet's name? Everything as much as posible to be read aloud. For a start, and very much off the top of my head, and confining myself entirely to English (and one translation so enshrined in the language that it passes for English), with absolutely no attempt at inclusiveness or political correctness, just what's actually been most important to me as a writer, even if there's stuff I admire as much but I haven't internalized the same way. Chaucer, Troilus and the Canterbury Tales. The Pearl Poet, Gawain and the Green Knight Langland, Piers Plowman B-text Any good collection of middle english lyrics. The above in the original. There are lots of versions with unfamiliar words glossed in the margin or below the text. It takes a very little time to figure out the vowel shift, and there are recordings that will act as tutorials. Note that you'll probably be laughed at in the wilderness of Wirral for sounding like a Londoner, but do you really care? Whyatt Sidney Montague Spencer--the sonnets and the Epithalamion Shakespeare Ben Jonson Donne Traherne Herrick Herbert A good anthology of Elizabethan lyric A good anthology of the ballads. Old Testament, King James version. Think of it as early 17th century English. And it doesn't matter for our purposes if it's inaccurate in places. All of it except for Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Chronicles. Milton, especially Lycidas and the three great late works Marvell Dryden, Annus Mirabilis, Absalom, MacFlecknoe, versions of Chaucer, The Conquest of Granada Otway, Venice Preserv'd Rochester Pope, Epistle to Arbuthnot Swift Smart, Psalm to David and Jubilate Agno Sam Johnson, London Burns Blake Wordworth thru 1810ish Coleridge Clare Keats, the odes Hopkins Tennyson, chunks of In Memoriam Whitman, start with Crossing Brooklyn Ferry Dickinson Meredith, "Love in a Valley" Yeats Ford Maddox Ford, Buckshee Pound, the translations, Cathay, big chunks of the Cantos Williams Stevens Reznikoff Oppen Niedecker Olson, Maximus (the theory stuff, esp Projective Verse and Human Universe, too) Duncan, The Opening of the Field Creeley (need convincing to read all of him? Start with "The Finger" in Pieces) Spicer Wieners, Hotel Wentley Poems, Asylum Poems, Ace of Pentacles, Pressed Wafer, "We Were There!" Blackburn Schwerner Note that only the dead are included as a matter of policy, which accounts for the lack of contemporary Irish, English, Canadians and Australians. And that I'm aware that there are few women and no people of color. If I had been born later or differently the list would probably be different. This is not a record of who I wish I'd imbibed when they would have stuck, but who I did. Best, Mark PS I've probably left out 20 poets who were crucial to my education. At 03:37 PM 3/3/2010, you wrote: >On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 7:44 AM, Robin Hamilton > wrote: > > So let's build on a model of proved success. For me Wiki provides a model > > of success, whereas blogs, at least as they stand at the moment, are pretty > > much of a total dead end when it comes to managing, collaborating, and > > focusing. Glorified diaries, most of them, for all of me, and if I want to > > read an op-ed column, I'd open the pages of the NYT. > > > > Ah, done it again -- told myself I'd try not to be *gratuitously offensive. > > OK, add to the above negative comment on blogs, "present company > > excepted." > >Blogs are certainly not the best place for the kind of collaborative >activity it sounds like might happen here... > >I find a lot of compelling stuff out there in blogland, but it has >taken me a while to find those that fit me, and the result is a >constantly evolving set. And if I just surfed 'old school' to each one >in my browser hoping for new content, etc. it would drive me crazy. >That's what Google Reader and other such applications were made for. > >c > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From leroymoore at sinsinvalid.org Wed Mar 3 17:11:28 2010 From: leroymoore at sinsinvalid.org (Leroy Moore) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 14:11:28 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please post Sins Invalid' New Program & Poetry Workshop in San Francisco, CA Message-ID: <9A80E4CB-A03E-42BD-9A8D-8AB8B087FEDC@sinsinvalid.org> Hello Poetry listserv members How are you? Sins Invalid is really excited about our new program, Artists In Resident, AIR. We would love to share it with you and your readers. Below are documents (pdf format) describing AIR and our upcoming PoemSong workshop. All taking place in sunny/foggy San Francisco, CA USA. We hope you can share this with your readers. If your readers are interested in applying to AIR, we can email you or them the application. Thanks so much. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: AIR Description.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 55146 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PoemSongAnnouncement.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 42106 bytes Desc: not available URL: -------------- next part -------------- Peace, Leroy Moore Community Relations Director, Sins Invalid http://www.sinsinvalid.org From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Wed Mar 3 17:22:16 2010 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 17:22:16 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wiki In-Reply-To: <4B8EA7F1.6020301@nut-n-but.net> References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><04605DDC E40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC><4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <4B8EA7F1.6020301@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4B8EE118.8040307@opus40.org> I've written a few Wiki entries, and edited a number of others, including the one on Donald Justice. The only trouble I had was in editing the entry on my stepfather, Harvey Fite -- they rejected my edit on the grounds that I was a relative. I pointed out that I was the leading authority on the subject, and that all the sources they were referencing were based on interviews with me. This went back and forth a few times, but ultimately they accepted it. Outside of that, no problems. Bob Grumman wrote: > Catherine Daly wrote: >> the academia jobs wiki is on wikia, which is very simple >> http://www.wikia.com/Wikia >> >> if you're frustrated that a wikipedia article isn't as good as you >> know you could make it -- well, that's no one's fault but your own, >> since you're supposed to log in and write a better article >> > Easier said than done. I found it difficult a few years ago when I > tried to improve a Wiki entry on E. E. Cummings. Then some goof > improved my improvement out of the text. I noticed then that there's > no guarantee that some article you write will pass the peer review. > > --Bob. > >> the trick is to come up with a way to do the topics >> >> sounds more like a mapping exercise than something linear >> http://www.thebrain.com/ >> >> however, as a straw outline before I start work >> >> teaching poetry wiki >> >> I. background >> 1. utility of teaching traditional forms >> a. list of forms and poems to use to teach them >> -- prosody resources >> -- poetics resources >> b. a list of poems and how they work and don't vis a vis form >> 2. utility of teaching other works vs. student work >> a. who else to teach and why >> 1) the canon in English >> 2) the Classics >> 3) contemporary work >> a) anthologies >> b) individual books of poems >> b. ways to discuss student work >> 3. content >> a. relationship to other works >> b. experience/phenomenology >> c. ideas, material culture, critical theory >> 4. utility of exercises, craft work, assignments >> a. sample exercises >> b. sample carft work >> c. sample assignments >> >> 5. reference works, grammar, punctuation, syntax >> >> >> II. syllabi >> 1. standards, grading, evaluation, comment >> 2. reading and writing requirements >> 3. in class critique >> 4. other >> >> III. outcomes >> a. publication >> -- groups of poems >> -- submissions >> -- chapbooks >> -- manuscripts >> --audio >> -- video >> b. other poetry groups >> c. self assignment >> d. inspiration/talent >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From junction at earthlink.net Wed Mar 3 18:15:54 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 18:15:54 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] List addenda Message-ID: Dorn Blaser Rexroth Stephen Jonas >Chaucer, Troilus and the Canterbury Tales. >The Pearl Poet, Gawain and the Green Knight >Langland, Piers Plowman B-text >Any good collection of middle english lyrics. > >The above in the original. There are lots of versions with >unfamiliar words glossed in the margin or below the text. It takes a >very little time to figure out the vowel shift, and there are >recordings that will act as tutorials. Note that you'll probably be >laughed at in the wilderness of Wirral for sounding like a Londoner, >but do you really care? > >Whyatt >Sidney >Montague >Spencer--the sonnets and the Epithalamion >Shakespeare >Ben Jonson >Donne >Traherne >Herrick >Herbert >A good anthology of Elizabethan lyric >A good anthology of the ballads. >Old Testament, King James version. Think of it as early 17th century >English. And it doesn't matter for our purposes if it's inaccurate >in places. All of it except for Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Chronicles. >Milton, especially Lycidas and the three great late works >Marvell >Dryden, Annus Mirabilis, Absalom, MacFlecknoe, versions of Chaucer, >The Conquest of Granada >Otway, Venice Preserv'd >Rochester >Pope, Epistle to Arbuthnot >Swift >Smart, Psalm to David and Jubilate Agno >Sam Johnson, London >Burns >Blake >Wordworth thru 1810ish >Coleridge >Clare >Keats, the odes >Hopkins >Tennyson, chunks of In Memoriam >Whitman, start with Crossing Brooklyn Ferry >Dickinson >Meredith, "Love in a Valley" >Yeats >Ford Maddox Ford, Buckshee >Pound, the translations, Cathay, big chunks of the Cantos >Williams >Stevens >Reznikoff >Oppen >Niedecker >Olson, Maximus (the theory stuff, esp Projective Verse and Human >Universe, too) >Duncan, The Opening of the Field >Creeley (need convincing to read all of him? Start with "The Finger" >in Pieces) >Spicer >Wieners, Hotel Wentley Poems, Asylum Poems, Ace of Pentacles, >Pressed Wafer, "We Were There!" >Blackburn >Schwerner Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Wed Mar 3 18:53:10 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 18:53:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><04605DDC E40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC><4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net><6157160638C3 4D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4B8EF666.7090907@nut-n-but.net> Mark Weiss wrote: > Let's by all means make this as complex as possible. I'm not talking about this wiki, but about one that would be of value--the one that I previously said I'd like a paid year to work out. --Bob From chris at chrislott.org Wed Mar 3 19:30:59 2010 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 15:30:59 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: Thanks, Mark! I hope you won't mind some specific questions as they come. I know education's a lifetime thing, but I may need to prioritize a bit in terms of specific works by specific poets. c On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 12:55 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Let's by all means make this as complex as possible. How about whoever wants > to makes a list, all the lists are collated, and the name of each person who > suggested a given poet appear after the poet's name? > > Everything as much as posible to be read aloud. > > For a start, and very much off the top of my head, and confining myself > entirely to English (and one translation so enshrined in the language that > it passes for English), with absolutely no attempt at inclusiveness or > political correctness, just what's actually been most important to me as a > writer, even if there's stuff I admire as much but I haven't internalized > the same way. > > Chaucer, Troilus and the Canterbury Tales. > The Pearl Poet, Gawain and the Green Knight > Langland, Piers Plowman B-text > Any good collection of middle english lyrics. > > The above in the original. There are lots of versions with unfamiliar words > glossed in the margin or below the text. It takes a very little time to > figure out the vowel shift, and there are recordings that will act as > tutorials. Note that you'll probably be laughed at in the wilderness of > Wirral for sounding like a Londoner, but do you really care? > > Whyatt > Sidney > Montague > Spencer--the sonnets and the Epithalamion > Shakespeare > Ben Jonson > Donne > Traherne > Herrick > Herbert > A good anthology of Elizabethan lyric > A good anthology of the ballads. > Old Testament, King James version. Think of it as early 17th century > English. And it doesn't matter for our purposes if it's inaccurate in > places. All of it except for Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Chronicles. > Milton, especially Lycidas and the three great late works > Marvell > Dryden, Annus Mirabilis, Absalom, MacFlecknoe, versions of Chaucer, The > Conquest of Granada > Otway, Venice Preserv'd > Rochester > Pope, Epistle to Arbuthnot > Swift > Smart, Psalm to David and Jubilate Agno > Sam Johnson, London > Burns > Blake > Wordworth thru 1810ish > Coleridge > Clare > Keats, the odes > Hopkins > Tennyson, chunks of In Memoriam > Whitman, start with Crossing Brooklyn Ferry > Dickinson > Meredith, "Love in a Valley" > Yeats > Ford Maddox Ford, Buckshee > Pound, the translations, Cathay, big chunks of the Cantos > Williams > Stevens > Reznikoff > Oppen > Niedecker > Olson, Maximus (the theory stuff, esp Projective Verse and Human Universe, > too) > Duncan, The Opening of the Field > Creeley (need convincing to read all of him? Start with "The Finger" in > Pieces) > Spicer > Wieners, Hotel Wentley Poems, Asylum Poems, Ace of Pentacles, Pressed Wafer, > "We Were There!" > Blackburn > Schwerner > > Note that only the dead are included as a matter of policy, which accounts > for the lack of contemporary Irish, English, Canadians and Australians. And > that I'm aware that there are few women and no people of color. If I had > been born later or differently the list would probably be different. This is > not a record of who I wish I'd imbibed when they would have stuck, but who I > did. > > Best, > > Mark > > PS I've probably left out 20 poets who were crucial to my education. > > > > > At 03:37 PM 3/3/2010, you wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 7:44 AM, Robin Hamilton > wrote: >> So let's build on a model of proved success.? For me Wiki provides a model >> of success, whereas blogs, at least as they stand at the moment, are >> pretty >> much of a total dead end when it comes to managing, collaborating, and >> focusing.? Glorified diaries, most of them, for all of me, and if I want >> to >> read an op-ed column, I'd open the pages of the NYT. >> >> Ah, done it again -- told myself I'd try not to be *gratuitously >> offensive. >> ? OK, add to the above negative comment on blogs, "present company >> excepted." > > Blogs are certainly not the best place for the kind of collaborative > activity it sounds like might happen here... > > I find a lot of compelling stuff out there in blogland, but it has > taken me a while to find those that fit me, and the result is a > constantly evolving set. And if I just surfed 'old school' to each one > in my browser hoping for new content, etc. it would drive me crazy. > That's what Google Reader and other such applications were made for. > > c > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > California Press). > > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it."?? John Palattella in The Nation > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From junction at earthlink.net Wed Mar 3 19:52:12 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 19:52:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: Sure thing. At 07:30 PM 3/3/2010, you wrote: >Thanks, Mark! I hope you won't mind some specific questions as they >come. I know education's a lifetime thing, but I may need to >prioritize a bit in terms of specific works by specific poets. > >c > >On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 12:55 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > Let's by all means make this as complex as possible. How about > whoever wants > > to makes a list, all the lists are collated, and the name of each > person who > > suggested a given poet appear after the poet's name? > > > > Everything as much as posible to be read aloud. > > > > For a start, and very much off the top of my head, and confining myself > > entirely to English (and one translation so enshrined in the language that > > it passes for English), with absolutely no attempt at inclusiveness or > > political correctness, just what's actually been most important to me as a > > writer, even if there's stuff I admire as much but I haven't internalized > > the same way. > > > > Chaucer, Troilus and the Canterbury Tales. > > The Pearl Poet, Gawain and the Green Knight > > Langland, Piers Plowman B-text > > Any good collection of middle english lyrics. > > > > The above in the original. There are lots of versions with unfamiliar words > > glossed in the margin or below the text. It takes a very little time to > > figure out the vowel shift, and there are recordings that will act as > > tutorials. Note that you'll probably be laughed at in the wilderness of > > Wirral for sounding like a Londoner, but do you really care? > > > > Whyatt > > Sidney > > Montague > > Spencer--the sonnets and the Epithalamion > > Shakespeare > > Ben Jonson > > Donne > > Traherne > > Herrick > > Herbert > > A good anthology of Elizabethan lyric > > A good anthology of the ballads. > > Old Testament, King James version. Think of it as early 17th century > > English. And it doesn't matter for our purposes if it's inaccurate in > > places. All of it except for Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Chronicles. > > Milton, especially Lycidas and the three great late works > > Marvell > > Dryden, Annus Mirabilis, Absalom, MacFlecknoe, versions of Chaucer, The > > Conquest of Granada > > Otway, Venice Preserv'd > > Rochester > > Pope, Epistle to Arbuthnot > > Swift > > Smart, Psalm to David and Jubilate Agno > > Sam Johnson, London > > Burns > > Blake > > Wordworth thru 1810ish > > Coleridge > > Clare > > Keats, the odes > > Hopkins > > Tennyson, chunks of In Memoriam > > Whitman, start with Crossing Brooklyn Ferry > > Dickinson > > Meredith, "Love in a Valley" > > Yeats > > Ford Maddox Ford, Buckshee > > Pound, the translations, Cathay, big chunks of the Cantos > > Williams > > Stevens > > Reznikoff > > Oppen > > Niedecker > > Olson, Maximus (the theory stuff, esp Projective Verse and Human Universe, > > too) > > Duncan, The Opening of the Field > > Creeley (need convincing to read all of him? Start with "The Finger" in > > Pieces) > > Spicer > > Wieners, Hotel Wentley Poems, Asylum Poems, Ace of Pentacles, > Pressed Wafer, > > "We Were There!" > > Blackburn > > Schwerner > > > > Note that only the dead are included as a matter of policy, which accounts > > for the lack of contemporary Irish, English, Canadians and Australians. And > > that I'm aware that there are few women and no people of color. If I had > > been born later or differently the list would probably be > different. This is > > not a record of who I wish I'd imbibed when they would have > stuck, but who I > > did. > > > > Best, > > > > Mark > > > > PS I've probably left out 20 poets who were crucial to my education. > > > > > > > > > > At 03:37 PM 3/3/2010, you wrote: > > > > On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 7:44 AM, Robin Hamilton > > wrote: > >> So let's build on a model of proved success. For me Wiki provides a model > >> of success, whereas blogs, at least as they stand at the moment, are > >> pretty > >> much of a total dead end when it comes to managing, collaborating, and > >> focusing. Glorified diaries, most of them, for all of me, and if I want > >> to > >> read an op-ed column, I'd open the pages of the NYT. > >> > >> Ah, done it again -- told myself I'd try not to be *gratuitously > >> offensive. > >> OK, add to the above negative comment on blogs, "present company > >> excepted." > > > > Blogs are certainly not the best place for the kind of collaborative > > activity it sounds like might happen here... > > > > I find a lot of compelling stuff out there in blogland, but it has > > taken me a while to find those that fit me, and the result is a > > constantly evolving set. And if I just surfed 'old school' to each one > > in my browser hoping for new content, etc. it would drive me crazy. > > That's what Google Reader and other such applications were made for. > > > > c > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > > California Press). > > > > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of > > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively > > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > > else like it." John Palattella in The Nation > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Wed Mar 3 19:59:02 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 19:59:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] More List addenda Message-ID: O'Hara (start with In Memory of My Feelings, then the odes, then everything else) Ginsberg, Howl, America, Ether Koch, Ko, or A Season on Earth (it helps if you like baseball. And something's been lost since it's no longer an absurd fantasy imagining a Japanese slugger in the majors) >Dorn >Blaser >Rexroth >Stephen Jonas >Chaucer, Troilus and the Canterbury Tales. >The Pearl Poet, Gawain and the Green Knight >Langland, Piers Plowman B-text >Any good collection of middle english lyrics. > >The above in the original. There are lots of versions with >unfamiliar words glossed in the margin or below the text. It takes a >very little time to figure out the vowel shift, and there are >recordings that will act as tutorials. Note that you'll probably be >laughed at in the wilderness of Wirral for sounding like a Londoner, >but do you really care? > >Whyatt >Sidney >Montague >Spencer--the sonnets and the Epithalamion >Shakespeare >Ben Jonson >Donne >Traherne >Herrick >Herbert >A good anthology of Elizabethan lyric >A good anthology of the ballads. >Old Testament, King James version. Think of it as early 17th century >English. And it doesn't matter for our purposes if it's inaccurate >in places. All of it except for Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Chronicles. >Milton, especially Lycidas and the three great late works >Marvell >Dryden, Annus Mirabilis, Absalom, MacFlecknoe, versions of Chaucer, >The Conquest of Granada >Otway, Venice Preserv'd >Rochester >Pope, Epistle to Arbuthnot >Swift >Smart, Psalm to David and Jubilate Agno >Sam Johnson, London >Burns >Blake >Wordworth thru 1810ish >Coleridge >Clare >Keats, the odes >Hopkins >Tennyson, chunks of In Memoriam >Whitman, start with Crossing Brooklyn Ferry >Dickinson >Meredith, "Love in a Valley" >Yeats >Ford Maddox Ford, Buckshee >Pound, the translations, Cathay, big chunks of the Cantos >Williams >Stevens >Reznikoff >Oppen >Niedecker >Olson, Maximus (the theory stuff, esp Projective Verse and Human >Universe, too) >Duncan, The Opening of the Field >Creeley (need convincing to read all of him? Start with "The Finger" >in Pieces) >Spicer >Wieners, Hotel Wentley Poems, Asylum Poems, Ace of Pentacles, >Pressed Wafer, "We Were There!" >Blackburn >Schwerner Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Mar 3 20:46:01 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 20:46:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC><4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net><6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <956167F872FC4945915DD2BDDB843B8B@RobinLaptopPC> Annotations to Mark's list (in haste, while trying to check in online in order to flee the country tomorrow): ________________________________________________________ Everything as much as posible to be read aloud. {CONCUR, and emphasise. Possibly also a link to read-aloud OE and ME texts?} Chaucer, Troilus and the Canterbury Tales. COUNTER: (Only) Prologue to Canterbury Tales, and The Pardoner's Prologue and Tale. The Pearl Poet, Gawain and the Green Knight OBSERVATION: Gawain and the Green Knight should carry a health warning -- this is not as easy to read as Chaucer and Langland (and possibly even more difficult than Beowulf). RELATED ADDITION: Beowulf in the Glossed Text (Penguin) by Michael Alexander. (As far as I know, there isn't anything comparable online, so this is a case where you have to buy the book.) Langland, Piers Plowman B-text COUNTER: Agree on the B-Text, but only the Prologue. SHELF COPY: Schmidt Everyman edition of the B-text. INFORMATIONAL NOTE -- A, B, C and Z-Texts. (Bags me the comment on the Z-text.) Any good collection of middle english lyrics. EXTENSION: Hardcopy vs. Online. {About shelf copies, I'd suggest possibly five positive recommendations (with reasons) -- I'd nominate the Silverstein collection. (And dis-recommend the Davies Medieval English Lyrics published here by Faber.) } LINK TO comment on: The Harley Lyrics. The above in the original. There are lots of versions with unfamiliar words glossed in the margin or below the text. It takes a very little time to figure out the vowel shift, and there are recordings that will act as tutorials. Note that you'll probably be laughed at in the wilderness of Wirral for sounding like a Londoner, but do you really care? Yup. Direction to further background reading in the area? Teach Yourself to Chatter and Mutter in Middle English ONE TEXT -- Baugh, _History of the English Language_ (any edition). SENTENTIOUSLY -- Wot, no Scots? Barbour's Bruce, Blind Harry's Wallace, Henryson, Dunbar, Gavin Douglas (Pound recommends him in _The ABC of Reading_), _The Book of the Howlat_, the bob-and-wheel alliterative Middle Scots texts as a necessary context for GGK ... Whyatt Hoo? {Obviously, a thorough knowledge of the Devonshire, Egerton, Blage, and Arundel MSS, and Grimald's Miscellany, is absolutely necessary before any approach is made to Sir Thomas Wyatt (the Elder).} OBSERVATION: I agree with Mark's implicit judgement that Surrey can be quite easily ignored. Sidney COUNTER: 10 sonnets from _aSTROPHIL AND sTELLA_, and the Renunciation of Love one (I forget the title) from Sundrie Sonnets Montague QUERY: Montaigne the cheese eating surrender monkey (in Florio's translation, together with Frames modern translation. + The original French)? -- or did you mean Lady Mary Wortley Montague? Spencer--the sonnets and the Epithalamion COUNTER: Yuck!!!! Except for the Mutability Cantos. {As an exponent of the sonnet, other than for historical interest, Spenser comes (way) behind Shakespeare, Greville, and even Sidney.} SHELF COPY: Evans, _The Elizabethan Sonnet Cycle_ ___________________________________________________________ K, nuff for now. Gotta go pack. Robin From junction at earthlink.net Wed Mar 3 21:05:51 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 21:05:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <956167F872FC4945915DD2BDDB843B8B@RobinLaptopPC> References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> <956167F872FC4945915DD2BDDB843B8B@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: "Montague" is clearly a memory glitch. I'll never find the reference. A cycle of ten sonnets the first or among the first sonnet sequences. Impressed me greatly as an adolescent. What to read is clearly a matter of how much time. But certainly a lot more Chaucer. If I had to go bare bones I'd go with Troilus. Gawain way rewards the effort. Likewise Langland. But sure, the intro for brief time. Badly edited Whyatt is way better than no Whyatt at all (sorry, Robin). Remember, I was reporting work that helped form me as a poet, not objective betters and worsts. Which means things encountered early loom a lot larger. I also like Banjo Patterson. Not much influence visible in my work, tho. At 08:46 PM 3/3/2010, you wrote: > Annotations to Mark's list (in haste, while trying to check > in online in order to flee the country tomorrow): > >________________________________________________________ > >Everything as much as posible to be read aloud. > > {CONCUR, and emphasise. Possibly also a link to read-aloud > OE and ME texts?} > >Chaucer, Troilus and the Canterbury Tales. > > COUNTER: (Only) Prologue to Canterbury Tales, and The > Pardoner's Prologue and Tale. > >The Pearl Poet, Gawain and the Green Knight > > OBSERVATION: Gawain and the Green Knight should carry a > health warning -- this is not as easy to read as Chaucer and > Langland (and possibly even more difficult than Beowulf). > > RELATED ADDITION: Beowulf in the Glossed Text (Penguin) by > Michael Alexander. (As far as I know, there isn't anything > comparable online, so this is a case where you have to buy the book.) > >Langland, Piers Plowman B-text > > COUNTER: Agree on the B-Text, but only the Prologue. > > SHELF COPY: Schmidt Everyman edition of the B-text. > > INFORMATIONAL NOTE -- A, B, C and Z-Texts. (Bags me the > comment on the Z-text.) > >Any good collection of middle english lyrics. > > EXTENSION: Hardcopy vs. Online. > > {About shelf copies, I'd suggest possibly five positive > recommendations (with reasons) -- I'd nominate the Silverstein > collection. (And dis-recommend the Davies Medieval English Lyrics > published here by Faber.) } > > LINK TO comment on: The Harley Lyrics. > >The above in the original. There are lots of versions with >unfamiliar words glossed in the margin or below the text. It takes a >very little time to figure out the vowel shift, and there are >recordings that will act as tutorials. Note that you'll probably be >laughed at in the wilderness of Wirral for sounding like a Londoner, >but do you really care? > > Yup. Direction to further background reading in the > area? Teach Yourself to Chatter and Mutter in Middle English > > ONE TEXT -- Baugh, _History of the English Language_ (any edition). > > SENTENTIOUSLY -- Wot, no Scots? > > Barbour's Bruce, Blind Harry's Wallace, Henryson, Dunbar, > Gavin Douglas (Pound recommends him in _The ABC of Reading_), _The > Book of the Howlat_, the bob-and-wheel alliterative Middle Scots > texts as a necessary context for GGK ... > >Whyatt > > Hoo? > > {Obviously, a thorough knowledge of the Devonshire, Egerton, > Blage, and Arundel MSS, and Grimald's Miscellany, is absolutely > necessary before any approach is made to Sir Thomas Wyatt (the Elder).} > > OBSERVATION: I agree with Mark's implicit judgement that > Surrey can be quite easily ignored. > >Sidney > > COUNTER: 10 sonnets from _aSTROPHIL AND sTELLA_, and the > Renunciation of Love one (I forget the title) from Sundrie Sonnets > >Montague > > QUERY: Montaigne the cheese eating surrender monkey (in > Florio's translation, together with Frames modern translation. + > The original French)? > > -- or did you mean Lady Mary Wortley Montague? > >Spencer--the sonnets and the Epithalamion > > COUNTER: Yuck!!!! Except for the Mutability Cantos. > > {As an exponent of the sonnet, other than for historical > interest, Spenser comes (way) behind Shakespeare, Greville, and even Sidney.} > > SHELF COPY: Evans, _The Elizabethan Sonnet Cycle_ > >___________________________________________________________ > >K, nuff for now. Gotta go pack. > >Robin > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Wed Mar 3 21:31:06 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 21:31:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC><4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net><6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC><956167F872FC4945915DD2BDDB843B8B@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: Ah. now you've got me racking my brains as to who dat Montague could be. Admittedly, I was going to the opposite extreme from you -- what's the bare-bones minimum? If I were less jokey, or had more time, I'd suggest a hierarchical list in each case. i.e. With Chaucer, the obvious start point is the Prologue to the Canterbury Tales, perhaps initially heard in a good reading. (There used to be a vinyl by was it Coghill which was great -- and there must be *something online.) Then where? I'd seriously suggest the Pardoner's Prologue and Tale. Then there's the Wife of Bath. Only after that the Knight's Tale. And put beside Chaucer, Dunbar's "Tretis of the Tua Merrit Wemen and the Wedo" (Wife of Bath) and Henryson's "Testament of Cresseid" (which I'd quite seriously suggest reading before Chaucer's Troilus -- shorter and less dated. As to any edition of Wyatt being better than no edition ... Ah, hell, I have to agree, 'specially as it looks like I'll never finish mine. Wyatt Hierarchy: They flee from me ... Some sonnets Satires Psalms Robin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Wed Mar 3 22:33:51 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed, 03 Mar 2010 22:33:51 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> <956167F872FC4945915DD2BDDB843B8B@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: We have different Chaucer favorites, but it's hard to miss (tho I might wait on the Treatise on the Astrolabe). I also love The Parlement of Fowles. Reading Gawain the first time was an amazing experience. I tingle when I think of it. At 09:31 PM 3/3/2010, you wrote: >Ah. now you've got me racking my brains as to who dat Montague could be. > >Admittedly, I was going to the opposite extreme from you -- what's >the bare-bones minimum? If I were less jokey, or had more time, I'd >suggest a hierarchical list in each case. > >i.e. With Chaucer, the obvious start point is the Prologue to the >Canterbury Tales, perhaps initially heard in a good reading. (There >used to be a vinyl by was it Coghill which was great -- and there >must be *something online.) > >Then where? I'd seriously suggest the Pardoner's Prologue and >Tale. Then there's the Wife of Bath. Only after that the Knight's Tale. > >And put beside Chaucer, Dunbar's "Tretis of the Tua Merrit Wemen and >the Wedo" (Wife of Bath) and Henryson's "Testament of Cresseid" >(which I'd quite seriously suggest reading before Chaucer's Troilus >-- shorter and less dated. > >As to any edition of Wyatt being better than no edition ... Ah, >hell, I have to agree, 'specially as it looks like I'll never finish mine. > >Wyatt Hierarchy: > >They flee from me ... >Some sonnets > >Satires >Psalms > >Robin >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 23:22:59 2010 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed, 3 Mar 2010 22:22:59 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <956167F872FC4945915DD2BDDB843B8B@RobinLaptopPC> References: <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> <956167F872FC4945915DD2BDDB843B8B@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: T. Silverstein--whatever Olde English I can still read I owe to him. Hal follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest collection -- http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 7:46 PM, Robin Hamilton < robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote: > Annotations to Mark's list (in haste, while trying to check in online > in order to flee the country tomorrow): > > ________________________________________________________ > > > Everything as much as posible to be read aloud. > > {CONCUR, and emphasise. Possibly also a link to read-aloud OE and ME > texts?} > > > Chaucer, Troilus and the Canterbury Tales. > > COUNTER: (Only) Prologue to Canterbury Tales, and The Pardoner's > Prologue and Tale. > > > The Pearl Poet, Gawain and the Green Knight > > OBSERVATION: Gawain and the Green Knight should carry a health > warning -- this is not as easy to read as Chaucer and Langland (and possibly > even more difficult than Beowulf). > > RELATED ADDITION: Beowulf in the Glossed Text (Penguin) by Michael > Alexander. (As far as I know, there isn't anything comparable online, so > this is a case where you have to buy the book.) > > > Langland, Piers Plowman B-text > > COUNTER: Agree on the B-Text, but only the Prologue. > > SHELF COPY: Schmidt Everyman edition of the B-text. > > INFORMATIONAL NOTE -- A, B, C and Z-Texts. (Bags me the comment on > the Z-text.) > > > Any good collection of middle english lyrics. > > EXTENSION: Hardcopy vs. Online. > > {About shelf copies, I'd suggest possibly five positive > recommendations (with reasons) -- I'd nominate the Silverstein collection. > (And dis-recommend the Davies Medieval English Lyrics published here by > Faber.) } > > LINK TO comment on: The Harley Lyrics. > > > The above in the original. There are lots of versions with unfamiliar words > glossed in the margin or below the text. It takes a very little time to > figure out the vowel shift, and there are recordings that will act as > tutorials. Note that you'll probably be laughed at in the wilderness of > Wirral for sounding like a Londoner, but do you really care? > > Yup. Direction to further background reading in the area? Teach > Yourself to Chatter and Mutter in Middle English > > ONE TEXT -- Baugh, _History of the English Language_ (any edition). > > SENTENTIOUSLY -- Wot, no Scots? > > Barbour's Bruce, Blind Harry's Wallace, Henryson, Dunbar, Gavin > Douglas (Pound recommends him in _The ABC of Reading_), _The Book of the > Howlat_, the bob-and-wheel alliterative Middle Scots texts as a necessary > context for GGK ... > > Whyatt > > Hoo? > > {Obviously, a thorough knowledge of the Devonshire, Egerton, Blage, > and Arundel MSS, and Grimald's Miscellany, is absolutely necessary before > any approach is made to Sir Thomas Wyatt (the Elder).} > > OBSERVATION: I agree with Mark's implicit judgement that Surrey can > be quite easily ignored. > > Sidney > > COUNTER: 10 sonnets from _aSTROPHIL AND sTELLA_, and the > Renunciation of Love one (I forget the title) from Sundrie Sonnets > > Montague > > QUERY: Montaigne the cheese eating surrender monkey (in Florio's > translation, together with Frames modern translation. + The original > French)? > > -- or did you mean Lady Mary Wortley Montague? > > > Spencer--the sonnets and the Epithalamion > > COUNTER: Yuck!!!! Except for the Mutability Cantos. > > {As an exponent of the sonnet, other than for historical interest, > Spenser comes (way) behind Shakespeare, Greville, and even Sidney.} > > SHELF COPY: Evans, _The Elizabethan Sonnet Cycle_ > > ___________________________________________________________ > > K, nuff for now. Gotta go pack. > > Robin > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed Mar 3 23:49:48 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 05:49:48 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Chora by Sandra Doller Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003032049v52086f7ax893d75ff2151be32@mail.gmail.com> http://hosted.verticalresponse.com/598041/c26296af20/289101767/04bb735a63/ -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bircumplus at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 4 02:06:30 2010 From: bircumplus at yahoo.co.uk (David Bircumshaw) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 07:06:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <956167F872FC4945915DD2BDDB843B8B@RobinLaptopPC> References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC><4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net><6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> <956167F872FC4945915DD2BDDB843B8B@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <794490.28061.qm@web28506.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Old Englkish additions: Wulf annd Eadwacer The Charm against the Wennikin Deor ?David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com ________________________________ From: Robin Hamilton To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Thu, 4 March, 2010 1:46:01 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound ? ? ? Annotations to Mark's list (in haste, while trying to check in online in order to flee the country tomorrow): ________________________________________________________ Everything as much as posible to be read aloud. ? ? ? {CONCUR, and emphasise.? Possibly also a link to read-aloud OE and ME texts?} Chaucer, Troilus and the Canterbury Tales. ? ? ? COUNTER:? (Only) Prologue to Canterbury Tales, and The Pardoner's Prologue and Tale. The Pearl Poet, Gawain and the Green Knight ? ? ? OBSERVATION:? Gawain and the Green Knight should carry a health warning -- this is not as easy to read as Chaucer and Langland (and possibly even more difficult than Beowulf). ? ? ? RELATED ADDITION:? Beowulf in the Glossed Text (Penguin) by Michael Alexander.? (As far as I know, there isn't anything comparable online, so this is a case where you have to buy the book.) Langland, Piers Plowman B-text ? ? ? COUNTER:? Agree on the B-Text, but only the Prologue. ? ? ? SHELF COPY:? Schmidt Everyman edition of the B-text. ? ? ? INFORMATIONAL NOTE -- A, B, C and Z-Texts.? (Bags me the comment on the Z-text.) Any good collection of middle english lyrics. ? ? ? EXTENSION:? Hardcopy vs. Online. ? ? ? {About shelf copies, I'd suggest possibly five positive recommendations (with reasons) -- I'd nominate the Silverstein collection. (And dis-recommend the Davies Medieval English Lyrics published here by Faber.) } ? ? ? LINK TO comment on:? The Harley Lyrics. The above in the original. There are lots of versions with unfamiliar words glossed in the margin or below the text. It takes a very little time to figure out the vowel shift, and there are recordings that will act as tutorials. Note that you'll probably be laughed at in the wilderness of Wirral for sounding like a Londoner, but do you really care? ? ? ? Yup.? Direction to further background reading in the area?? Teach Yourself to Chatter and Mutter in Middle English ? ? ? ONE TEXT -- Baugh, _History of the English Language_ (any edition). ? ? ? SENTENTIOUSLY -- Wot, no Scots? ? ? ? Barbour's Bruce, Blind Harry's Wallace, Henryson, Dunbar, Gavin Douglas (Pound recommends him in _The ABC of Reading_), _The Book of the Howlat_, the bob-and-wheel alliterative Middle Scots texts as a necessary context for GGK ... Whyatt ? ? ? Hoo? ? ? ? {Obviously, a thorough knowledge of the Devonshire, Egerton, Blage, and Arundel MSS, and Grimald's Miscellany, is absolutely necessary before any approach is made to Sir Thomas Wyatt (the Elder).} ? ? ? OBSERVATION:? I agree with Mark's implicit judgement that Surrey can be quite easily ignored. Sidney ? ? ? COUNTER:? 10 sonnets from _aSTROPHIL AND sTELLA_, and the Renunciation of Love one (I forget the title) from Sundrie Sonnets Montague ? ? ? QUERY:? Montaigne the cheese eating surrender monkey (in Florio's translation, together with Frames modern translation.? + The original French)? ? ? ? ? ? -- or did you mean Lady Mary Wortley Montague? Spencer--the sonnets and the Epithalamion ? ? ? COUNTER:? Yuck!!!!? Except for the Mutability Cantos. ? ? ? {As an exponent of the sonnet, other than for historical interest, Spenser comes (way) behind Shakespeare, Greville, and even Sidney.} ? ? ? SHELF COPY:? Evans, _The Elizabethan Sonnet Cycle_ ___________________________________________________________ K, nuff for now.? Gotta go pack. Robin _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bircumplus at yahoo.co.uk Thu Mar 4 02:08:30 2010 From: bircumplus at yahoo.co.uk (David Bircumshaw) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 07:08:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> <956167F872FC4945915DD2BDDB843B8B@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <259016.5855.qm@web28501.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> The House of Fame, though perhaps in excerpt ?David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com ________________________________ From: Mark Weiss To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Thu, 4 March, 2010 3:33:51 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound We have different Chaucer favorites, but it's hard to miss (tho I might wait on the Treatise on the Astrolabe). I also love The Parlement of Fowles. Reading Gawain the first time was an amazing experience. I tingle when I think of it. At 09:31 PM 3/3/2010, you wrote: Ah. now you've got me racking my brains as to who dat Montague could be. >? >Admittedly, I was going to the opposite extreme from you -- what's the bare-bones minimum?? If I were less jokey, or had more time, I'd suggest a hierarchical list in each case. >? >i.e.? With Chaucer, the obvious start point is the Prologue to the Canterbury Tales, perhaps initially heard in a good reading.? (There used to be a vinyl by was it Coghill which was great -- and there must be *something online.) >? >Then where?? I'd seriously suggest the Pardoner's Prologue and Tale.? Then there's the Wife of Bath.? Only after that the Knight's Tale. >? >And put beside Chaucer, Dunbar's "Tretis of the Tua Merrit Wemen and the Wedo" (Wife of Bath) and Henryson's "Testament of Cresseid" (which I'd quite seriously suggest reading before Chaucer's Troilus -- shorter and less dated. >? >As to any edition of Wyatt being better than no edition ...? Ah, hell, I have to agree, 'specially as it looks like I'll never finish mine. >? >Wyatt Hierarchy: >? >They flee from me ... >Some sonnets >? >Satires >Psalms >? >Robin >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it."?? John Palattella in The Nation ???????? ???????? ???????? ???????? ???????? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 13:00:32 2010 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 10:00:32 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <794490.28061.qm@web28506.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> <956167F872FC4945915DD2BDDB843B8B@RobinLaptopPC> <794490.28061.qm@web28506.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sun and Moon published a book of newly writing Old English poetry -- Hwet! -- I think it was called but seriously, this is a wonderful booklist, looks like a solid ivy league undergrad intro to brit lit survey if one wanted to teach one even more limited to white guys than usual, or a series of more upper division courses, especially one of those offered- every-three-years OE/ME ones and one devoted to a bunch of american guys and one charwoman-poet. what it has to do with the teaching of poetry writing on the graduate level, I don't know. while it is rare to find non-English majors in workshops, it is increasingly likely even the MDs going back to school have got high scores on the GRE AND Lit subject test to get in. which requires reading all these books, plus restoration comedy, and more than a little Saintsbury. then again, this looks like the booklist for the exam for the UCLA MA English; I remember asking, during my unsuccessful application process, if I could just take the exam, as I had an MFA and had already read all the books and done creative writing projects with the texts, and they said "no" so what I'm saying is: I can see this particular group of readings, 1st half, being ok for a remedial reading course in brit lit in an MFA course, or perhaps a nice booklist to provide adult students in a nighttime creative writing continuing ed situation (knowing that some will choose to go on to MFAs, but have taken a different path educationally, and may not have been english majors), but what I would like to know how one would use these particular readings to teach poetry writing -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com From junction at earthlink.net Thu Mar 4 13:07:12 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 13:07:12 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> <956167F872FC4945915DD2BDDB843B8B@RobinLaptopPC> <794490.28061.qm@web28506.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I didn't think the list had anything to do with teaching, certainly not classroom teaching. For that I would have created a very different list. It may be that several different purposes have crossed here. Best, Mark At 01:00 PM 3/4/2010, you wrote: >Sun and Moon published a book of newly writing Old English poetry -- >Hwet! -- I think it was called > >but seriously, this is a wonderful booklist, looks like a solid ivy >league undergrad intro to brit lit survey if one wanted to teach one >even more limited to white guys than usual, or a series of more upper >division courses, especially one of those offered- every-three-years >OE/ME ones and one devoted to a bunch of american guys and one >charwoman-poet. > >what it has to do with the teaching of poetry writing on the graduate >level, I don't know. while it is rare to find non-English majors in >workshops, it is increasingly likely even the MDs going back to school >have got high scores on the GRE AND Lit subject test to get in. which >requires reading all these books, plus restoration comedy, and more >than a little Saintsbury. > >then again, this looks like the booklist for the exam for the UCLA MA >English; I remember asking, during my unsuccessful application >process, if I could just take the exam, as I had an MFA and had >already read all the books and done creative writing projects with the >texts, and they said "no" > >so what I'm saying is: I can see this particular group of readings, >1st half, being ok for a remedial reading course in brit lit in an MFA >course, or perhaps a nice booklist to provide adult students in a >nighttime creative writing continuing ed situation (knowing that some >will choose to go on to MFAs, but have taken a different path >educationally, and may not have been english majors), but what I would >like to know how one would use these particular readings to teach >poetry writing > >-- >All best, >Catherine Daly >c.a.b.daly at gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skip at louisiana.edu Thu Mar 4 13:24:34 2010 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 12:24:34 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5A600E66C5684CCC87E9E097EE9841DA@win.louisiana.edu> I love Mark's list and wish I had the time to add. (I once read at the Longfellow House in Cambridge and open the reading, to a sprinkling of listeners, by saying I was happy to be reading in a city of such a strong literary heritage, stretching "all the way back to Weiners and Jonas." As I anticipated even then, no one got it..) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Mar 4 13:54:30 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 10:54:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Query - Poem Commissions? Message-ID: <527918.96540.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> So I commissioned a female artist not long ago to make some dolls of my partner-in-crime, Ana, and myself. I can't tell you how thrilled I was when they arrived today -- so much so that I posted a note and photos here --http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/04/strange-dolls/ But this got me to thinking, especially in relation to the film, "Who Does She Think She Is?" (http://www.whodoesshethinksheis.net/) -- how many of us are ever commissioned to sell our own art? How often do we support artists who are making a go of doing such? Is it possible to write poems for pay? Is there a way to start a trend, especially in the face of current economic climate, that gets back to supporting the little artist toiling away at her craft? Are you one of those artists who would be willing to give it a whirl? I realize this raises a whole host of loaded issues (i.e. can creativity be prompted by pay? Can a poet actually sell poems? Is this a call to pull your dusty mimeograph and letterpress machines from the attics and basements?), but I ask after finding out a poet I know has done as much, and he's something of a name... and I'd like to open a discussion about such the business of making a life as an artist in this country. Or are we all just supplementing our lives with side art / "hobbies"? Best, Amy _______ BOOK Slaves to Do These Things-- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm RANT "My Barbaric Bitch of a Yawp" -- http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2010/02/amy-king.html ESSAY "The What Else"-- http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/Archives/Winter_2009/prose/A_King.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Thu Mar 4 14:12:47 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 14:12:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <5A600E66C5684CCC87E9E097EE9841DA@win.louisiana.edu> References: <5A600E66C5684CCC87E9E097EE9841DA@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: Steve Jonas is an especially sad case.Wieners had the backing of Fag Rag, and he was picked up by the Language people. Jonas remains an orphan of sorts, tho I think everything's available with the help of bookfinder. His executors, Rafael de Gruttola and Gerrit Lansing (as I remember), have done their best. If I could find my copy I'd type out the first of his Exercises for Ear. First lines: "In trips sweet May / upon those damsel feet of hers." At 01:24 PM 3/4/2010, you wrote: >I love Mark's list and wish I had the time to add. > >(I once read at the Longfellow House in Cambridge and open the >reading, to a sprinkling of listeners, by saying I was happy to be >reading in a city of such a strong literary heritage, stretching >"all the way back to Weiners and Jonas." As I anticipated even then, >no one got it..) >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From acgold01 at louisville.edu Thu Mar 4 14:33:23 2010 From: acgold01 at louisville.edu (Alan C Golding) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 14:33:23 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound's scholars Message-ID: <4B8FC4B2.AC48.0004.0@gwise.louisville.edu> "Are his ideal scholars who would inform the state (in the person of Malatesta, Mussolini, etc.) and reintroduce the classics divorced from the academy (like Kung)? I cannot remember." To try and respond belatedly to your question, Skip: this may seem like a spurious complication, but it depends on what one means by "divorced from the academy." I read Kung's scene of instruction in C. 13 as involving what we might now call a coterie or even an avant-garde, a small marginal group involved in intensive conversation about effecting cultural change from their marginal position. "Picabia's of a Sunday." But also Black Mountain, really. (Interestingly--to me, anyway!--the only person to speak in Poundian sentence fragments in C. 13 is the artist.) Pound consistently differentiates between the general mass of academic dullards and individual bright lights who are sometimes, actually, academics themselves, and--that key term for Pound--"experts." He constructs these bright lights as somehow divorced from at least the mass of academics even when they're academics themselves. (The term "expert" in EP trumps the academic / non-academic distinction.) So Kung = an academy of one, but in C. 20, pursuing a lead from one of his teachers at Penn, Pound hunts down Prof. Emil Levy in Freiburg, as a Provencal expert--my point being that EP's condemnation of academics is not a blanket one. On the other one, he makes much of the fact that Peter Abelard comes in as a kind of lay philosopher and out-argues (out-expertises) the tenured prof (anachronism, I know) in Paris, so that the students all follow Abelard out into the hills in an odd combination of Pied-Piper-meets-Sermon-on-the-Mount. OK--this has already gotten way more pedantic than I intended--I have an essay on these issues coming out in Journal of Modern Literature, and they're part of a book project, so I spoze they're on my mind. From skip at louisiana.edu Thu Mar 4 14:56:20 2010 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 13:56:20 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound's scholars In-Reply-To: <4B8FC4B2.AC48.0004.0@gwise.louisville.edu> Message-ID: I love pedantic. (I'm printing this off so I can think about later today when I'll have time.) Thanks, Alan. -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Alan C Golding Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 1:33 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound's scholars "Are his ideal scholars who would inform the state (in the person of Malatesta, Mussolini, etc.) and reintroduce the classics divorced from the academy (like Kung)? I cannot remember." To try and respond belatedly to your question, Skip: this may seem like a spurious complication, but it depends on what one means by "divorced from the academy." I read Kung's scene of instruction in C. 13 as involving what we might now call a coterie or even an avant-garde, a small marginal group involved in intensive conversation about effecting cultural change from their marginal position. "Picabia's of a Sunday." But also Black Mountain, really. (Interestingly--to me, anyway!--the only person to speak in Poundian sentence fragments in C. 13 is the artist.) Pound consistently differentiates between the general mass of academic dullards and individual bright lights who are sometimes, actually, academics themselves, and--that key term for Pound--"experts." He constructs these bright lights as somehow divorced from at least the mass of academics even when they're academics themselves. (The term "expert" in EP trumps the academic / non-academic distinction.) So Kung = ! an academy of one, but in C. 20, pursuing a lead from one of his teachers at Penn, Pound hunts down Prof. Emil Levy in Freiburg, as a Provencal expert--my point being that EP's condemnation of academics is not a blanket one. On the other one, he makes much of the fact that Peter Abelard comes in as a kind of lay philosopher and out-argues (out-expertises) the tenured prof (anachronism, I know) in Paris, so that the students all follow Abelard out into the hills in an odd combination of Pied-Piper-meets-Sermon-on-the-Mount. OK--this has already gotten way more pedantic than I intended--I have an essay on these issues coming out in Journal of Modern Literature, and they're part of a book project, so I spoze they're on my mind. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From skip at louisiana.edu Thu Mar 4 14:58:59 2010 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 13:58:59 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9F69B444380545B88344B13ED1C91C97@win.louisiana.edu> Lovely book. I have the London edition (which might be the only one). Talisman did his Selected in 1994. -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Weiss Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 1:13 PM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound Steve Jonas is an especially sad case.Wieners had the backing of Fag Rag, and he was picked up by the Language people. Jonas remains an orphan of sorts, tho I think everything's available with the help of bookfinder. His executors, Rafael de Gruttola and Gerrit Lansing (as I remember), have done their best. If I could find my copy I'd type out the first of his Exercises for Ear. First lines: "In trips sweet May / upon those damsel feet of hers." At 01:24 PM 3/4/2010, you wrote: I love Mark's list and wish I had the time to add. (I once read at the Longfellow House in Cambridge and open the reading, to a sprinkling of listeners, by saying I was happy to be reading in a city of such a strong literary heritage, stretching "all the way back to Weiners and Jonas." As I anticipated even then, no one got it..) _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Thu Mar 4 15:29:07 2010 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 11:29:07 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets picking poets Message-ID: I've been reading _The McSweeney's Book of Poets Picking Poets_, which is composed of "threads" beginning with the work of one poet who then picks the next poet and so on. Anyone know of other collections like this? Seems like a natural idea, and much more interesting than the generic assemblage of many anthologies... c From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Thu Mar 4 15:50:11 2010 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 12:50:11 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets picking poets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: no, but there's a new reading series in LA like this, and I think it was based on a poem Kim Addonizio wrote? not sure, could check out if you wanted Kenneth Koch's anthology is nice, gives interesting comments on poems that tend to trigger new poem-like thoughts -- nothing earth skaing, but a good beach read of an anthology -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Mar 4 16:07:41 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 13:07:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] poets picking poets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <658300.86856.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Yeah and it includes twenty male poets and two women (including the token Dickinson). But all of the male poets are good - I use it in my Writing Poetry class. ________________________________ From: Catherine Daly Kenneth Koch's anthology is nice, gives interesting comments on poems that tend to trigger new poem-like thoughts -- nothing earth skaing, but a good beach read of an anthology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Thu Mar 4 16:15:32 2010 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 12:15:32 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets picking poets In-Reply-To: <658300.86856.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <658300.86856.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: FYI, the McSweeney's anthology has, by my quick count, 24 women, 25 men. c On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 12:07 PM, amy king wrote: > Yeah and it includes twenty male poets and two women (including the token > Dickinson). ?But all of the male poets are good - I use it in my Writing > Poetry class. > ________________________________ > From: Catherine Daly > > > Kenneth Koch's anthology is nice, gives interesting comments on poems > that tend to trigger new poem-like thoughts? -- nothing earth skaing, > but a good beach read of an anthology > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From skip at louisiana.edu Thu Mar 4 16:26:54 2010 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 15:26:54 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stephen Jonas, Gentleman In-Reply-To: <9F69B444380545B88344B13ED1C91C97@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: I in trips sweet may upon those damsel feet of hers carpets spreading green before her cowsip & clover down to banks of ever chuckling streams of gurgle-happy waters & the sky 's one big squash of pumpkin smile First section from Exercises for Ear, Stephen Jonas (London: Ferry, 1968). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Thu Mar 4 18:07:50 2010 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 18:07:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets picking poets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7db1d01b1003041507l76d728bdx99efffa69f209a5f@mail.gmail.com> Sounds gorgeous, Chris----do you like the selections chosen, though? Judy On 4 March 2010 15:29, Chris Lott wrote: > I've been reading _The McSweeney's Book of Poets Picking Poets_, which > is composed of "threads" beginning with the work of one poet who then > picks the next poet and so on. > > Anyone know of other collections like this? Seems like a natural idea, > and much more interesting than the generic assemblage of many > anthologies... > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ "I so rarely fuck up Jell-O." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Thu Mar 4 19:02:00 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Thu, 04 Mar 2010 19:02:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound Message-ID: In a dream course, aside from a much longer list of poets, there'd be a great deal of music and visual arts, as well as political and cultural history and a lot of stuff from across whatever waters. And prose. Hell, give me the kids for the whole four years. Sounds like Black Mountain! But imagine reading Gawain surrounded by 13th and 14th century polyphony and manuscript illuminations. And lots of pop music from the period, too. And an awareness of the social changes happening and what the texture of the moment to moment was. It seems a shame to be constrained not to teach what it's taken decades to learn. That's the goal, I think. The few that will catch fire should have the means to find it for themselves. >I didn't think the list had anything to do with teaching, certainly >not classroom teaching. For that I would have created a very different list. > >It may be that several different purposes have crossed here. > >Best, > >Mark At 01:00 PM 3/4/2010, you wrote: >Sun and Moon published a book of newly writing Old English poetry -- >Hwet! -- I think it was called > >but seriously, this is a wonderful booklist, looks like a solid ivy >league undergrad intro to brit lit survey if one wanted to teach one >even more limited to white guys than usual, or a series of more upper >division courses, especially one of those offered- every-three-years >OE/ME ones and one devoted to a bunch of american guys and one >charwoman-poet. > >what it has to do with the teaching of poetry writing on the graduate >level, I don't know. while it is rare to find non-English majors in >workshops, it is increasingly likely even the MDs going back to school >have got high scores on the GRE AND Lit subject test to get in. which >requires reading all these books, plus restoration comedy, and more >than a little Saintsbury. > >then again, this looks like the booklist for the exam for the UCLA MA >English; I remember asking, during my unsuccessful application >process, if I could just take the exam, as I had an MFA and had >already read all the books and done creative writing projects with the >texts, and they said "no" > >so what I'm saying is: I can see this particular group of readings, >1st half, being ok for a remedial reading course in brit lit in an MFA >course, or perhaps a nice booklist to provide adult students in a >nighttime creative writing continuing ed situation (knowing that some >will choose to go on to MFAs, but have taken a different path >educationally, and may not have been english majors), but what I would >like to know how one would use these particular readings to teach >poetry writing > >-- >All best, >Catherine Daly >c.a.b.daly at gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Mar 4 19:07:00 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 16:07:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] poets picking poets In-Reply-To: References: <658300.86856.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <718495.69431.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Interesting. So when poets pick poets, it evens out more. Editors choose, it's male heavy and includes tokens. Goodreads, by the way, oddly has a female-heavy 'best of' list from last year. But then when you look to see who's doing the voting, it's the members and there are a large number of women. The established Best of lists don't represent what's being sold and read and voted on then... p.s. Chris, I'm brushing my 'essay' up and will send it next week. From: Chris Lott FYI, the McSweeney's anthology has, by my quick count, 24 women, 25 men. c -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Thu Mar 4 19:12:09 2010 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Thu, 4 Mar 2010 19:12:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7db1d01b1003041612q7ee02f95rd7dae4178f974f20@mail.gmail.com> then what indeed will stop us?! If poets can't do this thing, then who can? Best, Judy On 4 March 2010 19:02, Mark Weiss wrote: > In a dream course, aside from a much longer list of poets, there'd be a > great deal of music and visual arts, as well as political and cultural > history and a lot of stuff from across whatever waters. And prose. > > Hell, give me the kids for the whole four years. > > Sounds like Black Mountain! > > But imagine reading Gawain surrounded by 13th and 14th century polyphony > and manuscript illuminations. And lots of pop music from the period, too. > And an awareness of the social changes happening and what the texture of the > moment to moment was. It seems a shame to be constrained not to teach what > it's taken decades to learn. > > That's the goal, I think. The few that will catch fire should have the > means to find it for themselves. > > I didn't think the list had anything to do with teaching, certainly not > classroom teaching. For that I would have created a very different list. > > It may be that several different purposes have crossed here. > > Best, > > Mark > > ---------------------------------------------------- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ "I so rarely fuck up Jell-O." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Mar 5 03:49:41 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 09:49:41 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Geof Huth Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003050049q5f602db3p34b6a5f807a8b830@mail.gmail.com> Dear all Geof's book is out now: Check here - http://ifpthenq.co.uk/books.html James James Davies: Editor i*f p then q www.ifpthenq.co.uk ifpthenq at fsmail.net www.otherroom.org** OUT NOW: ** Geof Huth - ntst - March 2010 if p then q issue 4 - Caroline Bergvall, Allen Fisher, Richard Makin, Lucy Harvest Clarke, Andrew Shelley, Scott Thurston, Charles Bernstein, Ray DiPalma, Joy as Tiresome Vandalism, Philip Davenport - October 2009 http://www.ifpthenq.co.uk/magazine.html Lucy Harvest Clarke - Silveronda - November 2009 FORTHCOMING* *Tom Jenks - * - May 2010 Joy as Tiresome Vandalism - Absolute Elsewhere - Summer 2010 Tony Trehy - collection - late 2010 Matthew Welton - collection - late 2010 P. Inman - The Collected Works of P. Inman late 2011* *PREVIOUSLY: ** **if p then q spring 2008 issue 1 (Tom Jenks, Ceri Buck, Andrew Shelley, Tony Trehy, James Davies on P. Inman's 4 or 5, A Cd of readings by Ceri Buck and Tom Jenks) -http://www.ifpthenq.co.uk/magazine.html TOM JENKS - A PRIORI - http://www.ifpthenq.co.uk/books.html or www.amazon.co.uk JOY AS TIRESOME VANDALISM - aRb (2 volumes) http://www.ifpthenq.co.uk/others.html p.inman - AD FINITUM - http://www.ifpthenq.co.uk/books.html or www.amazon.co.uk if p then q autumn 2008 issue 2 (featuring p.inman, Scott Thurston, Janis Butler Holm, Michael Gibbs, Bill Allen on Michael Gibbs, Tony Trehy meets Robert Grenier, Joy as Tiresome Vandalism (aRb Versions) - http://www.ifpthenq.co.uk/magazine.html if p then q Text Festival Special Spring 2009 issue 3 (featuring A3 colour posters by Anne Charnock, Craig Dworkin, Geof Huth, P. Inman & Tom Jenks) - http://www.ifpthenq.co.uk/magazine.html* -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Mar 5 10:54:01 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 10:54:01 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets picking poets In-Reply-To: <718495.69431.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <658300.86856.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <718495.69431.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <06623230539345AFB317D4DBBDEAE651@RobinLaptopPC> Amy King said: << Interesting. So when poets pick poets, it evens out more. Editors choose, it's male heavy and includes tokens. >> FWIW, faced with a choice of The Last Book to carry back with me from the US of A to the UK (where I am a subject rather than a citizen), between Volume 2 of _The Historical Dictionary of American Slang_ and the McElwrath and Robb edition of the complete works of Anne Bradstreet, I decided on the works of a female poet rather than a male lexicogapher. Eventually, someone's going to get the point that Anne Bradstreet is the first American poet, and the third finest Metaphysical Poet ever, period.end.finish (after Donne and Marvell but before George Herbert and Henry Vaughan) but I suspect by then, I'll be dead and buried and long forgotten. Robin (who is seriously jetlagged, having started, belatedly, on a flight between Detroit and Amsterdam, to work his way through the Library of America volume of Ashbery, and who immediately thought [based on the first 15 poems in _Some Trees_] that the obvious first names to spring connections to mind are: Wallace Stevens W.H.Auden J.H.Prynne ... but that the second set of names would encompass: James Fenton {obviously} ... but also Emily Dickinson Edward Lear Stevie Smith Just a thot. (jetlagged) R. From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Fri Mar 5 10:55:32 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 10:55:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets picking poets In-Reply-To: <718495.69431.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <658300.86856.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <718495.69431.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3691657CB8D849569CE0D8530ED4EBE4@RobinLaptopPC> Amy King said: << Interesting. So when poets pick poets, it evens out more. Editors choose, it's male heavy and includes tokens. >> FWIW, faced with a choice of The Last Book to carry back with me from the US of A to the UK (where I am a subject rather than a citizen), between Volume 2 of _The Historical Dictionary of American Slang_ and the McElwrath and Robb edition of the complete works of Anne Bradstreet, I decided on the works of a female poet rather than a male lexicogapher. Eventually, someone's going to get the point that Anne Bradstreet is the first American poet, and the third finest Metaphysical Poet ever, period.end.finish (after Donne and Marvell but before George Herbert and Henry Vaughan) but I suspect by then, I'll be dead and buried and long forgotten. Robin (who is seriously jetlagged, having started, belatedly, on a flight between Detroit and Amsterdam, to work his way through the Library of America volume of Ashbery, and who immediately thought [based on the first 15 poems in _Some Trees_] that the obvious first names to spring connections to mind are: Wallace Stevens W.H.Auden J.H.Prynne ... but that the second set of names would encompass: James Fenton {obviously} ... but also Emily Dickinson Edward Lear Stevie Smith Just a thot. (jetlagged) R. From halvard at gmail.com Fri Mar 5 11:17:38 2010 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 10:17:38 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets picking poets In-Reply-To: <06623230539345AFB317D4DBBDEAE651@RobinLaptopPC> References: <658300.86856.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <718495.69431.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <06623230539345AFB317D4DBBDEAE651@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: Nice to see those names in the same paragraph: Donne and Bradstreet. Hal follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest collection -- http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 9:54 AM, Robin Hamilton < robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote: > Amy King said: > > << > Interesting. So when poets pick poets, it evens out more. Editors choose, > it's male heavy and includes tokens. > >> >>> > FWIW, faced with a choice of The Last Book to carry back with me from the > US > of A to the UK (where I am a subject rather than a citizen), between Volume > 2 of _The Historical Dictionary of American Slang_ and the McElwrath and > Robb edition of the complete works of Anne Bradstreet, I decided on the > works of a female poet rather than a male lexicogapher. > > Eventually, someone's going to get the point that Anne Bradstreet is the > first American poet, and the third finest Metaphysical Poet ever, > period.end.finish (after Donne and Marvell but before George Herbert and > Henry Vaughan) but I suspect by then, I'll be dead and buried and long > forgotten. > > Robin > > (who is seriously jetlagged, having started, belatedly, on a flight between > Detroit and Amsterdam, to work his way through the Library of America > volume > of Ashbery, and who immediately thought [based on the first 15 poems in > _Some Trees_] that the obvious first names to spring connections to mind > are: > > Wallace Stevens > W.H.Auden > J.H.Prynne > > ... but that the second set of names would encompass: > > James Fenton {obviously} > > ... but also Emily Dickinson > Edward Lear > Stevie Smith > > Just a thot. > > (jetlagged) R. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Fri Mar 5 11:25:43 2010 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 10:25:43 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Query - Poem Commissions? In-Reply-To: <527918.96540.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <527918.96540.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ask some composers. I know damned few of those who do work that's not on commission. Hal follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest collection -- http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 12:54 PM, amy king wrote: > So I commissioned a female artist not long ago to make some dolls of my > partner-in-crime, Ana, and myself. I can't tell you how thrilled I was when > they arrived today -- so much so that I posted a note and photos here -- > http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/04/strange-dolls/ > > But this got me to thinking, especially in relation to the film, "Who Does > She Think She Is?" (http://www.whodoesshethinksheis.net/) -- how many of > us are ever commissioned to sell our own art? How often do we support > artists who are making a go of doing such? Is it possible to write poems > for pay? Is there a way to start a trend, especially in the face of current > economic climate, that gets back to supporting the little artist toiling > away at her craft? Are you one of those artists who would be willing to > give it a whirl? > > I realize this raises a whole host of loaded issues (i.e. can creativity be > prompted by pay? Can a poet actually sell poems? Is this a call to pull > your dusty mimeograph and letterpress machines from the attics and > basements?), but I ask after finding out a poet I know has done as much, and > he's something of a name... and I'd like to open a discussion about such the > business of making a life as an artist in this country. Or are we all just > supplementing our lives with side art / "hobbies"? > > Best, > > Amy > > > _______* > > BOOK > > Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm * > > RANT > > "My Barbaric Bitch of a Yawp" -- > http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2010/02/amy-king.html > > ESSAY > > "The *What Else*"-- > http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/Archives/Winter_2009/prose/A_King.html > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Fri Mar 5 11:26:07 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 10:26:07 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets picking poets In-Reply-To: <06623230539345AFB317D4DBBDEAE651@RobinLaptopPC> References: <658300.86856.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <718495.69431.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <06623230539345AFB317D4DBBDEAE651@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <038DF924-064A-4BFA-B2B7-29058A93D2E9@ripon.edu> On Mar 5, 2010, at 9:54 AM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > Eventually, someone's going to get the point that Anne Bradstreet is the > first American poet, and the third finest Metaphysical Poet ever, ================================= Oh, someone already got it, Robin! Don't know if there will be general agreement on Bradstreet's ranking among the Metaphysicals, but as for her being the first American poet, that's not in dispute, at least on this side of the Atlantic. That's exactly how she is presented in all the main teaching anthologies these days. Nor was it in dispute during her lifetime, actually: The Tenth Muse, Lately Sprung Up. . ., etc. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Fri Mar 5 11:32:06 2010 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 07:32:06 -0900 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets picking poets In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b1003041507l76d728bdx99efffa69f209a5f@mail.gmail.com> References: <7db1d01b1003041507l76d728bdx99efffa69f209a5f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: So far It's very enjoyable. I'm not even 1/3 through it. There are some interesting links in the chain, such as Atsuro Riley -> Kay Ryan -- it's fun to speculate a bit on why the poems were chosen (the implication given in the introduction is that each poet chose not just the following poet, but the specific poems. I'll surely feature the aforementioned pair in my reading notes when I get to that point. c On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 2:07 PM, Judy Prince wrote: > Sounds gorgeous, Chris----do you like the selections chosen, though? > Judy > > On 4 March 2010 15:29, Chris Lott wrote: >> >> I've been reading _The McSweeney's Book of Poets Picking Poets_, which >> is composed of "threads" beginning with the work of one poet who then >> picks the next poet and so on. >> >> Anyone know of other collections like this? Seems like a natural idea, >> and much more interesting than the generic assemblage of many >> anthologies... >> >> c >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > -- > Frisky Moll Press: ?http://judithprince.com/home.html > > http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ > > "I so rarely fuck up Jell-O." ?---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Fri Mar 5 12:27:11 2010 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 12:27:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets picking poets In-Reply-To: References: <658300.86856.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <718495.69431.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <06623230539345AFB317D4DBBDEAE651@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <7db1d01b1003050927s2268e18bta2353a2d4943f93f@mail.gmail.com> oh, the joy of it! On 5 March 2010 11:17, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Nice to see those names in the same paragraph: Donne and Bradstreet. > > Hal > > follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest > collection -- > > http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 9:54 AM, Robin Hamilton < > robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote: > >> Amy King said: >> >> << >> Interesting. So when poets pick poets, it evens out more. Editors >> choose, >> it's male heavy and includes tokens. >> >>> >>>> >> FWIW, faced with a choice of The Last Book to carry back with me from the >> US >> of A to the UK (where I am a subject rather than a citizen), between >> Volume >> 2 of _The Historical Dictionary of American Slang_ and the McElwrath and >> Robb edition of the complete works of Anne Bradstreet, I decided on the >> works of a female poet rather than a male lexicogapher. >> >> Eventually, someone's going to get the point that Anne Bradstreet is the >> first American poet, and the third finest Metaphysical Poet ever, >> period.end.finish (after Donne and Marvell but before George Herbert and >> Henry Vaughan) but I suspect by then, I'll be dead and buried and long >> forgotten. >> >> Robin >> >> (who is seriously jetlagged, having started, belatedly, on a flight >> between >> Detroit and Amsterdam, to work his way through the Library of America >> volume >> of Ashbery, and who immediately thought [based on the first 15 poems in >> _Some Trees_] that the obvious first names to spring connections to mind >> are: >> >> Wallace Stevens >> W.H.Auden >> J.H.Prynne >> >> ... but that the second set of names would encompass: >> >> James Fenton {obviously} >> >> ... but also Emily Dickinson >> Edward Lear >> Stevie Smith >> >> Just a thot. >> >> (jetlagged) R. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ "I so rarely fuck up Jell-O." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Mar 5 16:31:16 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 5 Mar 2010 22:31:16 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] from Garrison's Almanac Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003051331q8caff21ma6e8e352eb932ad2@mail.gmail.com> Birthday Cake by Hayden Carruth For breakfast I have eaten the last of your birthday cake that you had left uneaten for five days and would have left five more before throwing it away. It is early March now. The winter of illness is ending. Across the valley patches of remaining snow make patterns among the hill farms, among fields and knolls and woodlots, like forms in a painting, as sure and significant as forms in a painting. The cake was stale. But I like stale cake, I even prefer it, which you don't understand, as I don't understand how you can open a new box of cereal when the old one is still unfinished. So many differences. You a woman, I a man, you still young at forty-two and I growing old at seventy. Yet how much we love one another. It seems a miracle. Not mystical, nothing occult, just the ordinary improbability that occurs over and over, the stupendousness of life. Out on the highway on the pavement wet with snow-melt, cars go whistling past. And our poetry, yours short-lined and sounding beautifully vulgar and bluesy in your woman's bitterness, and mine almost anything, unpredictable, though people say too ready a harkening back to the useless expressiveness and ardor of another era. But how lovely it was, that time in my restless memory. This is the season of mud and thrash, broken limbs and crushed briers from the winter storms, wetness and rust, the season of differences, articulable differences that signify deeper and inarticulable and almost paleolithic perplexities in our lives, and still we love one another. We love this house and this hillside by the highway in upstate New York. I am too old to write love songs now. I no longer assert that I love you, but that you love me, confident in my amazement. The spring will come soon. We will have more birthdays with cakes and wine. This valley will be full of flowers and birds. "Birthday Cake" by Hayden Carruth, from *Toward the Distant Islands: New & Selected Poems*. ? Copper Canyon Press, 2006. Reprinted with permission. (buy now ) -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Mar 6 06:41:24 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 06:41:24 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets picking poets In-Reply-To: <038DF924-064A-4BFA-B2B7-29058A93D2E9@ripon.edu> References: <658300.86856.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><718495.69431.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><06623230539345AFB317D4DBBDEAE651@RobinLaptopPC> <038DF924-064A-4BFA-B2B7-29058A93D2E9@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <7C1412CC75074CF9BF0084F016739FC8@RobinLaptopPC> Try teaching Anne Bradstreet this side of the Pond, David!!! You want to be a career Academic here, *don't teach Pound or Bradsteet or Langland. Actually, the problem I found -- and I blame the Brown Corpus Girls for this -- is that there's no decent text of AB. Frankly, my own experience, trying to teach any of the above three, is that it's a hiding to nothing. Negociating getting them on the syllabus is pretty easy, if you have even minimal smarts to work the committees. But then you give them to the kids. They simply don't seem to click. Scottish Literature is easy in comparison -- been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. Dunno why the students I taught didn't go a bundle on Anne Bradstreet. Thing was, they didn't. Henryson now, much to my surprise, was another matter -- after the usual howls of outrage about having to read Dead White Males in funny spelling, the kids seemed to fall over themselves to write essays on Henryson. Odd that, but. Maybe it's a girl thing -- up there on the hiding-to-nothing stakes is trying to teach Stevie Smith. I never even tried to teach Libby Houston. Against that, context, I was only able to teach any of the above by sneaking them into courses where nobody was looking. Like Lady Mary Wortley Montague. Sheesh, jimminy crisket, try teaching her!! Sad that but. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 11:26 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poets picking poets On Mar 5, 2010, at 9:54 AM, Robin Hamilton wrote: Eventually, someone's going to get the point that Anne Bradstreet is the first American poet, and the third finest Metaphysical Poet ever, ================================= Oh, someone already got it, Robin! Don't know if there will be general agreement on Bradstreet's ranking among the Metaphysicals, but as for her being the first American poet, that's not in dispute, at least on this side of the Atlantic. That's exactly how she is presented in all the main teaching anthologies these days. Nor was it in dispute during her lifetime, actually: The Tenth Muse, Lately Sprung Up. . ., etc. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Mar 6 11:20:24 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 17:20:24 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] the HEALTH & ILLNESS Anthology Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003060820w2eedd55bxac8c92a9862ca859@mail.gmail.com> We are pleased to announce the HEALTH & ILLNESS Anthology with our felt acknowledgment to all those who sent their poems and visual work. An enormous accomplishment that is officially unveiled on a freezing Satur(n)/day here in the Alps and a terribly hot day in Nigeria, with an epileptic electricity supply that forces people to seek refuge under the trees outside: *?* Editorial - Obododimma Oha- *?* Editorial - Anny Ballardini- *?* Michael Rothenberg *?* Dennis Barone *?* Daniel Zimmerman & Mom *?* Ned Condini *?* Elizabeth Smither *?* Douglas Clark *?* Jeff Harrison *?* John M. Bennett *?* Tony Trigilio *?* Peter Ganick *?* Charlotte Mandel *?* Ingrid Wendt *?* Sohrab Sepehri *?* Geoffrey Gatza *?* Wendy Carlisle *?* Peter Ciccariello *?* Jim Leftwich *?* Marilyn Hacker *?* Ric Carfagne *?* Jessica Fiorini *?* George Bowering *?* M?rton Kopp?ny *?* Silvia Levenson *?* Jameela ?Nishat? *?* Hoshang Merchant *?* Halvard Johnson *?* Meg Withers *?* Christina Pacosz *?* Ruth Fainlight *?* Jerry McGuire *?* Jerry McGuire - 2nd part *?* Evelyn Posamentier *?* Evelyn Posamentier 2nd Part *?* Wendy Vardaman *?* Malaika King Albrecht *?* Grzegorz Wr?blewski *?* Rebecca Seiferle *?* Luc Fierens *?* Helen Ruggieri *?* Ed Baker *?* Daniel Godston *?* David Howard *?* Fan Ogilvie *?* Christopher Flynn *?* Nuri Gene Cos *?* Penelope Scambly Schott *?* Alan Sondheim Part 1 *?* Alan Sondheim Part 2 *?* Alan Sondheim Part 3 *?* Alan Sondheim Part 4 *?* Alan Sondheim Part 5 *?* Eileen Tabios *?* Barry Alpert *?* Jean Vengua and Michael A. Fink *?* Kathrine Durham Oldmixon *?* Sarah Rae * ?* harry k stammer *?* Amy MacLennan *?* Margo Berdeshevsky *?* Obiwu *?* Marco Giovenale *?* Tom Savage *?* Richard Dillon *?* Drew Riley *?* Richard M. Berlin *?* Sola Olatunji *?* Musa Idris Okpanachi *?* Elizabeth Oakes *?* Marian Veverka *?* Judith E. Johnson *?* Penny Harter *?* Emma Bolden *?* Marjory Wentworth *?* Obododimma Oha With our best wishes, The Editors Obododimma Oha and Anny Ballardini -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Mar 6 15:11:20 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 21:11:20 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] the HEALTH & ILLNESS Anthology Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003061211h3fe1b5c4l83f615dea3c06cf8@mail.gmail.com> I forgot the main link, the direct link to the anthology! http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=361 -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Mar 6 16:12:49 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 16:12:49 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets picking poets In-Reply-To: <038DF924-064A-4BFA-B2B7-29058A93D2E9@ripon.edu> References: <658300.86856.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><718495.69431.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><06623230539345AFB317D4DBBDEAE651@RobinLaptopPC> <038DF924-064A-4BFA-B2B7-29058A93D2E9@ripon.edu> Message-ID: Try teaching Anne Bradstreet this side of the Pond, David!!! You want to be a Career Academic here, *don't teach Pound or Bradsteet or Langland. Actually, the problem I found -- and I blame the Brown Corpus Girls for this -- is that there's no decent text of AB. Frankly, my own experience, trying to teach any of the above three, is that it's a hiding to nothing. Negociating getting them on the syllabus is pretty easy, if you have even minimal smarts to work the committees. But then you give them to the kids. They simply don't seem to click. Scottish Literature is easy in comparison -- been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. Dunno why the students I taught didn't go a bundle on Anne Bradstreet. Thing was, they didn't. Henryson now, much to my surprise, was another matter -- after the usual howls of outrage about having to read Dead White Males in funny spelling, the kids seemed to fall over themselves to write essays on Henryson. Odd that, but. Maybe it's a girl thing -- up there on the hiding-to-nothing stakes is trying to teach Stevie Smith. I never even tried to teach Libby Houston. Against that, context, I was only able to teach any of the above by sneaking them into courses where nobody was looking. Like Lady Mary Wortley Montague. Sheesh, jimminy crisket, try teaching her!! Sad that but. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 11:26 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poets picking poets On Mar 5, 2010, at 9:54 AM, Robin Hamilton wrote: Eventually, someone's going to get the point that Anne Bradstreet is the first American poet, and the third finest Metaphysical Poet ever, ================================= Oh, someone already got it, Robin! Don't know if there will be general agreement on Bradstreet's ranking among the Metaphysicals, but as for her being the first American poet, that's not in dispute, at least on this side of the Atlantic. That's exactly how she is presented in all the main teaching anthologies these days. Nor was it in dispute during her lifetime, actually: The Tenth Muse, Lately Sprung Up. . ., etc. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ccooley at overdomain.com Sat Mar 6 18:47:41 2010 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 15:47:41 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Wiki Message-ID: Okay, I'm ready to create a new Poetry Wiki along the lines suggested in posts by Robin, Mark, Catherine, Judy, and others. Wikia looks easy so we could use that. Clearly this won't work unless a number of people are interested in contributing time & expertise. I don't know how attribution works in wikis, but my thought is to give attribution to contributors. You could also use this on your resume (haha). Also, I think that the evils of peer review are far outweighed by the benefit of credibility, and so peer review should be included, but in a way that eliminates 'tyranny of the majority'. Reviews could perhaps be limited to factual questions and not esthetic ones. Contributors could also suggest reviewers who could be approved by the group, etc. A few questions: 1. Who on new-poetry would be willing to contribute? How often? Frequently, occasionally, rarely? [For myself: I could contribute occasionally, and would tend to defer to the teachers of poetry on the list. ] == 2. What is the purpose or what are the purposes of the poetry wiki? A. For Learning About Poetry [I suggest: a place where a self-directed learner could go to find 1) autodidactic poetry reading list(s) that outline the poetic canon of poetry written in English up to, say, 1960; 2) recommended & peer-reviewed list of contemporary poets and their most important work, 1960 - present; 3) these lists available as text & recordings (if available); 4) cross index all with music & art of the period (love this idea); 5) strategies for writing poetry; 6) essays on poets & poems; 7) history of prosody; 8) contemporary prosody... 9) All this could be organized as a curriculum or simply chronologically. B. Doing the Work of Posterity by Voting on Which Contemporary Writers belong in the Canon [very difficult & contentious, but perhaps could be done with an eye to history rather than on self-and-friends-and-people-like-me promotion...] Your ideas? == 3. What should we call it? [The name Poetry Academy Online appears to be unique. There is a website called PoetryAcademy.org for sale for $30,000. haha ] What do you think? == 4. What questions am I forgetting? If there is sufficient interest, I'll get it started -- based on response to this post. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Mar 6 20:31:30 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 06 Mar 2010 20:31:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B9301F2.2000901@nut-n-but.net> Crisman Cooley wrote: > > A few questions: > 1. Who on new-poetry would be willing to contribute? I'd be willing to contribute comments for the peers, whoever they are, to reject every once in a while. At least once a week. --Bob From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Mar 6 21:36:22 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 6 Mar 2010 21:36:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Wiki In-Reply-To: <4B9301F2.2000901@nut-n-but.net> References: <4B9301F2.2000901@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <8440C567D1D44202A33A34218CA52390@RobinLaptopPC> OK, I'll go with that. At least once a week. For starters (would this count?) I could list The Fifteen Essential Cant Poems. (I might have to lodge the texts somewhere, as I think only ten are even remotely available online.) As to metrics ... I don't mind who does this, but can we at least have a notice of the six different metres which exist. Stress Syllable-Accent Quantitative Syllabics Dipodic Free Verse. -- this might already be loaded, as I can't see a born-again New Formalist agreeing with Bob Grumman in this area. Yes to attribution (initials maybe) -- less for the ego trip aspect, more that anonymity confers a specious authority. And there should be the possibility of disagreement. Go, Crisman, go boy. Go, go, go!!! Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 8:31 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry Wiki > Crisman Cooley wrote: >> >> A few questions: >> 1. Who on new-poetry would be willing to contribute? > I'd be willing to contribute comments for the peers, whoever they are, to > reject every once in a while. > > At least once a week. > > --Bob > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Mar 7 08:57:32 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 14:57:32 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: "The Gateless Gate-" Concluding Pages In-Reply-To: <982BD8BC35A244448408E1D476578996@DBHJMLF1> References: <982BD8BC35A244448408E1D476578996@DBHJMLF1> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003070557pc84fddfsa1a9ae94f2e0f2ac@mail.gmail.com> I think that Joel Weishaus's work is superb: *Dear All:* *These are the concluding pages [10 texts/ten images] of "The Gateless Gate": http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282/Gate-R/Pgs%2051-52R.htm * *From the beginning: http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282/Gate-R/Cover-R.htm * ** *Entire project at archive site: **http://www.cddc.vt.edu/host/weishaus/Gate-R/Cover-R.htm* [Best viewed with MS Explorer browser; text size : medium] ** *Thank you so much for your readings and critiques, as The Gateless Gate developed over the past year. * ** *My Warm Regards.* *Joel * -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Mar 7 09:52:50 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 15:52:50 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Wiki In-Reply-To: <8440C567D1D44202A33A34218CA52390@RobinLaptopPC> References: <4B9301F2.2000901@nut-n-but.net> <8440C567D1D44202A33A34218CA52390@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003070652n6cf59700qb82c232e235b289f@mail.gmail.com> Dear Crisman, as you know I have the Poets' Corner that eats down all those energies that should be considered the free energies given to people who work to invest as they best think. I therefore cannot promise a great commitment, but I do promise that I will pop up whenever I can and let you know if I find anything that I might think does not work, or I will praise you for what I find interesting. Before you throw away too much time, I would like to let you know that there are superb sites online I have used repeatedly. In the field of rhetoric: my favorite is Silva Rhetoricae: http://humanities.byu.edu/rhetoric/Silva.htm As per verse the Poetry Foundation, among other, have been working: http://www.poetryfoundation.org/search.html?q=verse&x=0&y=0 And don't forget to quote James Finnegan's major Herculean effort in drawing together all the titles for an ARS POETICA LIBRARY ! http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3126 Be well, and keep happy, Anny On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 3:36 AM, Robin Hamilton < robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote: > OK, I'll go with that. At least once a week. > > For starters (would this count?) I could list The Fifteen Essential Cant > Poems. (I might have to lodge the texts somewhere, as I think only ten are > even remotely available online.) > > As to metrics ... > > I don't mind who does this, but can we at least have a notice of the six > different metres which exist. > > Stress > Syllable-Accent > Quantitative > Syllabics > Dipodic > Free Verse. > > -- this might already be loaded, as I can't see a born-again New Formalist > agreeing with Bob Grumman in this area. > > Yes to attribution (initials maybe) -- less for the ego trip aspect, more > that anonymity confers a specious authority. And there should be the > possibility of disagreement. > > Go, Crisman, go boy. Go, go, go!!! > > Robin > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 8:31 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry Wiki > > > > Crisman Cooley wrote: >> >>> >>> A few questions: >>> 1. Who on new-poetry would be willing to contribute? >>> >> I'd be willing to contribute comments for the peers, whoever they are, to >> reject every once in a while. >> >> At least once a week. >> >> --Bob >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pastoral at princetonfreechurch.net Mon Mar 8 11:32:07 2010 From: pastoral at princetonfreechurch.net (Pastor Al Schirmacher) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 10:32:07 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who is our audience? Message-ID: <017a01cabedc$e5446db0$7e01a8c0@PASTORAL> Much verse reminds me of Gang artwork on the side of railroad cars Creative, colorful But indecipherable except for chosen few Al Schirmacher (Not meant acrimoniously; in fact, original title is "Note to Self, or Pardon the Slam") -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Mon Mar 8 11:51:00 2010 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon, 08 Mar 2010 11:51:00 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who is our audience? In-Reply-To: <017a01cabedc$e5446db0$7e01a8c0@PASTORAL> References: <017a01cabedc$e5446db0$7e01a8c0@PASTORAL> Message-ID: <4B952AF4.9000709@opus40.org> One difference is that gang artwork on the side of railroad cars can bring 6-figure prices. Pastor Al Schirmacher wrote: > > Much verse reminds me of > > Gang artwork on the side of railroad cars > > > > Creative, colorful > > But indecipherable except for chosen few > > Al Schirmacher > (Not meant acrimoniously; in fact, original title is "Note to Self, or > Pardon the Slam") > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From ccooley at overdomain.com Mon Mar 8 16:08:46 2010 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 13:08:46 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 69, Issue 20 In-Reply-To: <201003071700.o27H04bm028982@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <201003071700.o27H04bm028982@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Anny, Thank you so much -- this is a gift. I can hear that you speak from experience. I'll look at the sites you mention and do some further research to make sure we're not starting something that someone else is doing better already. Also, I think the purpose of the wiki needs further definition. I invite more ideas from other people. If we could collectively do 1 important thing better than any other site, then the effort could be useful. Also, the reality for me is that I have very little time for this for about the next year or so. However, it would only take a few minutes to set up the wiki that others could pitch in on with their discretionary time. My role here is limited to speaking the possibility into existence, since I'm neither a teacher nor a poet in the usual sense. [In fact the only reason I've followed the rigorous _ABC_ curriculum, including learning other languages, translating, etc, is to learn the craft well enough to complete a book I started writing 14 years ago; I've wanted the language of this work to be "charged with meaning to the utmost possible degree." (Pound, _ABC_, p28) For this reason, I consider myself to be only an 'applied poet', (learning enough to complete this book) not a 'general poet' (a professional writer of verse who holds him/herself to standards of the craft, etc). Your words come from a concern that speaks to me directly: 'spend your time wisely'. I'm indebted to you for that. >> Before you throw away too much time, I would like to let you know that there are superb sites online I have used repeatedly. << Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 15:52:50 +0100 > From: Anny Ballardini > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry Wiki > > Dear Crisman, > > as you know I have the Poets' Corner that eats down all those energies that > should be considered the free energies given to people who work to invest > as > they best think. I therefore cannot promise a great commitment, but I do > promise that I will pop up whenever I can and let you know if I find > anything that I might think does not work, or I will praise you for what I > find interesting. Before you throw away too much time, I would like to let > you know that there are superb sites online I have used repeatedly. In the > field of rhetoric: my favorite is Silva Rhetoricae: > http://humanities.byu.edu/rhetoric/Silva.htm > > As per verse the Poetry Foundation, among other, have been working: > http://www.poetryfoundation.org/search.html?q=verse&x=0&y=0 > > And don't forget to quote James Finnegan's major Herculean effort in > drawing > together all the titles for an ARS POETICA LIBRARY ! > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3126 > > Be well, and keep happy, > Anny > > > > On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 3:36 AM, Robin Hamilton < > robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote: > > > OK, I'll go with that. At least once a week. > > > > For starters (would this count?) I could list The Fifteen Essential Cant > > Poems. (I might have to lodge the texts somewhere, as I think only ten > are > > even remotely available online.) > > > > As to metrics ... > > > > I don't mind who does this, but can we at least have a notice of the six > > different metres which exist. > > > > Stress > > Syllable-Accent > > Quantitative > > Syllabics > > Dipodic > > Free Verse. > > > > -- this might already be loaded, as I can't see a born-again New > Formalist > > agreeing with Bob Grumman in this area. > > > > Yes to attribution (initials maybe) -- less for the ego trip aspect, more > > that anonymity confers a specious authority. And there should be the > > possibility of disagreement. > > > > Go, Crisman, go boy. Go, go, go!!! > > > > Robin > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" < > bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net > > > > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" < > > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > > Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 8:31 PM > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry Wiki > > > > > > > > Crisman Cooley wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> A few questions: > >>> 1. Who on new-poetry would be willing to contribute? > >>> > >> I'd be willing to contribute comments for the peers, whoever they are, > to > >> reject every once in a while. > >> > >> At least once a week. > >> > >> --Bob > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100307/8f649999/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 69, Issue 20 > ****************************************** > -- Crisman Cooley +1.805.426.5167 (int'l skype) +1.805.252.2421 (US cell) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Mon Mar 8 22:44:31 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon, 8 Mar 2010 19:44:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] From Ron Silliman's post on International Women's Day Message-ID: <549856.14589.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I hate to admit that this situation was perceived, at least by myself & the male poets I knew, as ?normal? back in the 1960s, but it was... So that when Kathleen Fraser ? that name again ? joined with some like-minded friends in 1983 to create HOW(ever), the timing was perfect: it proved to be an epoch-making event... Still, nothing has done more to change ? blur, to some degree even erase ? the faultlines for poetry in my lifetime than the mass emergence of women writing. For all of the problems that I have with the concept of hybridity in poetry, I can?t escape the fact that for many writers, especially those younger than myself, the bifurcation of poetry into two counter-posing traditions is experienced as a quarrel among men (white men at that), and that the landscape of poetry in the English language now looks entirely different. Not that all is perfect. Far from it. It is still possible to have a major award shortlist that consists entirely of men, even though everyone now seems to concede that the absolute majority of poets writing in English are women. Further, this disparity continues to turn up in some of the ways women writers express themselves. Of the 1192 active blogs on my blogroll, 392 are written by women, slightly under 33 percent. For the next week, the top list on my new links page will consist of nothing but these women (and, knowing Blogger, that may be the only list visible). Now, it?s conceivable that one of the reasons for this disparity is me ? if I?m missing anyone, send me an email and let me know. It?s also true that not all of the collective blogs are exclusively by men ? Give a Fig missed this list because one of its 13 contributors is male. But the distance between the 25 percent figure that marked the participation by women in In the American Tree in 1986 and the 32.9 percent in my blogroll 24 years later is not the sign of a successful revolution so much as it is of one still very much in process. Women who blog about poetry, poetics & the arts CONT -- http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/2010/03/early-editors-of-however-l-to-r-bev.html _______ BOOK Slaves to Do These Things-- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm RANT "My Barbaric Bitch of a Yawp" -- http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2010/02/amy-king.html ESSAY "The What Else"-- http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/Archives/Winter_2009/prose/A_King.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Mar 8 23:08:56 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 05:08:56 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 69, Issue 20 In-Reply-To: References: <201003071700.o27H04bm028982@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003082008l5033f097q3aaf6ce64296ecec@mail.gmail.com> Crisman, I did not really mean it that way. What I wanted to say is that, instead of writing of rhetoric, just link to Silva Rhetoricae. And congratulations for your work - I also revere Pound's ABC. Best wishes, Anny On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 10:08 PM, Crisman Cooley wrote: > Anny, > Thank you so much -- this is a gift. I can hear that you speak from > experience. I'll look at the sites you mention and do some further research > to make sure we're not starting something that someone else is doing better > already. Also, I think the purpose of the wiki needs further definition. I > invite more ideas from other people. If we could collectively do 1 important > thing better than any other site, then the effort could be useful. > > Also, the reality for me is that I have very little time for this for about > the next year or so. However, it would only take a few minutes to set up the > wiki that others could pitch in on with their discretionary time. > > My role here is limited to speaking the possibility into existence, since > I'm neither a teacher nor a poet in the usual sense. [In fact the only > reason I've followed the rigorous _ABC_ curriculum, including learning other > languages, translating, etc, is to learn the craft well enough to complete a > book I started writing 14 years ago; I've wanted the language of this work > to be "charged with meaning to the utmost possible degree." (Pound, _ABC_, > p28) For this reason, I consider myself to be only an 'applied poet', > (learning enough to complete this book) not a 'general poet' (a professional > writer of verse who holds him/herself to standards of the craft, etc). > > Your words come from a concern that speaks to me directly: 'spend your time > wisely'. I'm indebted to you for that. > > >> > Before you throw away too much time, I would like to let > you know that there are superb sites online I have used repeatedly. > << > > > Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 15:52:50 +0100 >> From: Anny Ballardini >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry Wiki >> >> Dear Crisman, >> >> as you know I have the Poets' Corner that eats down all those energies >> that >> should be considered the free energies given to people who work to invest >> as >> they best think. I therefore cannot promise a great commitment, but I do >> promise that I will pop up whenever I can and let you know if I find >> anything that I might think does not work, or I will praise you for what I >> find interesting. Before you throw away too much time, I would like to let >> you know that there are superb sites online I have used repeatedly. In the >> field of rhetoric: my favorite is Silva Rhetoricae: >> http://humanities.byu.edu/rhetoric/Silva.htm >> >> As per verse the Poetry Foundation, among other, have been working: >> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/search.html?q=verse&x=0&y=0 >> >> And don't forget to quote James Finnegan's major Herculean effort in >> drawing >> together all the titles for an ARS POETICA LIBRARY ! >> http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3126 >> >> Be well, and keep happy, >> Anny >> >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 3:36 AM, Robin Hamilton < >> robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote: >> >> > OK, I'll go with that. At least once a week. >> > >> > For starters (would this count?) I could list The Fifteen Essential Cant >> > Poems. (I might have to lodge the texts somewhere, as I think only ten >> are >> > even remotely available online.) >> > >> > As to metrics ... >> > >> > I don't mind who does this, but can we at least have a notice of the six >> > different metres which exist. >> > >> > Stress >> > Syllable-Accent >> > Quantitative >> > Syllabics >> > Dipodic >> > Free Verse. >> > >> > -- this might already be loaded, as I can't see a born-again New >> Formalist >> > agreeing with Bob Grumman in this area. >> > >> > Yes to attribution (initials maybe) -- less for the ego trip aspect, >> more >> > that anonymity confers a specious authority. And there should be the >> > possibility of disagreement. >> > >> > Go, Crisman, go boy. Go, go, go!!! >> > >> > Robin >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" < >> bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net >> > > >> > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" < >> > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> >> > Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 8:31 PM >> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry Wiki >> > >> > >> > >> > Crisman Cooley wrote: >> >> >> >>> >> >>> A few questions: >> >>> 1. Who on new-poetry would be willing to contribute? >> >>> >> >> I'd be willing to contribute comments for the peers, whoever they are, >> to >> >> reject every once in a while. >> >> >> >> At least once a week. >> >> >> >> --Bob >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> New-Poetry mailing list >> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New-Poetry mailing list >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Anny Ballardini >> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >> star! >> Friedrich Nietzsche >> >> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >> Giovenale >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100307/8f649999/attachment-0001.html >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 69, Issue 20 >> ****************************************** >> > > > > -- > Crisman Cooley > +1.805.426.5167 (int'l skype) > +1.805.252.2421 (US cell) > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Tue Mar 9 00:20:46 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 00:20:46 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] How you can become the most important poet in America overnight Message-ID: <8CC8D5F683F1B34-47E4-6B06@webmail-d064.sysops.aol.com> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/08/poetry-and-ruthless-caree_n_490451.html 24/7 Relentless Careerism: How you can become the most important poet in America overnight Jim Behrle The Poetry Foundation [Editor's note: This talk was originally delivered in slightly different form at the St. Mark's Poetry Project on January 25, 2010.] Let's just begin by saying that there are more poets than ever before in the history of literature--and therefore more magazines, reading series, and tiny publishers. There are probably 800 or so active writing programs in the United States alone. I could have looked up the actual number, but facts don't actually matter. If I say that Obama is a strong and effective president over and over again, it makes him a strong and effective president. Be louder and say simple things over and over again, and you will triumph in any debate or forum. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Mar 9 13:04:50 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 10:04:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] How to Say What You Haven't Yet Message-ID: <653138.99456.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Response in kind -- http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/09/how-to-say-what-you-havent/ Enjoy! Amy _______ BOOK Slaves to Do These Things-- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm RANT "My Barbaric Bitch of a Yawp" -- http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2010/02/amy-king.html ESSAY "The What Else"-- http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/Archives/Winter_2009/prose/A_King.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From obodooha at gmail.com Tue Mar 9 13:05:02 2010 From: obodooha at gmail.com (Obododimma Oha) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 10:05:02 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Listserv and the Least Served Message-ID: "As a context for sharing ideas, online resources, information, etc, listserv is, nevertheless, immensely useful to its subscribers. It is a context of education and consciousness-raising. A listserv that has specific professional commitments helps its members in their professional development a great deal and thus becomes indispensable as the imagined place to meet with those who know "the way." These days that education in a country like Nigeria is in great travail, having access to the Internet and subscribing to a listserv where sound professional sharing goes on could be one way of maintaining one's intellectual wellbeing. Everyday one reads listserv postings and the resources shared, one has truly answered "present" in a classroom with little or no tuition paid." Read the full text of "The Listserv and the Least Served" at: http://234next.com/csp/cms/sites/Next/Opinion/5537716-184/shibboleth_the_listserv_and_the_least.csp -- Obododimma Oha http://udude.wordpress.com/ Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604; +234 808 264 8060. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Mar 9 16:13:01 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 22:13:01 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Listserv and the Least Served In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003091313i31de0e42l8ddddfe4e38f3e04@mail.gmail.com> You talk of Nigeria... I don't think Italy is too distant. An interesting article. Couldn't they fit your pic a little better? I know the question is trivial, On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Obododimma Oha wrote: > "As a context for sharing ideas, online resources, information, etc, > listserv is, nevertheless, immensely useful to its subscribers. It is a > context of education and consciousness-raising. A listserv that has specific > professional commitments helps its members in their professional development > a great deal and thus becomes indispensable as the imagined place to meet > with those who know "the way." > > These days that education in a country like Nigeria is in great travail, > having access to the Internet and subscribing to a listserv where sound > professional sharing goes on could be one way of maintaining one's > intellectual wellbeing. Everyday one reads listserv postings and the > resources shared, one has truly answered "present" in a classroom with > little or no tuition paid." > > Read the full text of "The Listserv and the Least Served" > at: > > > http://234next.com/csp/cms/sites/Next/Opinion/5537716-184/shibboleth_the_listserv_and_the_least.csp > > -- > Obododimma Oha > http://udude.wordpress.com/ > > Dept. of English > University of Ibadan > Nigeria > > & > > Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies > University of Ibadan > > Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > +234 805 350 6604; > +234 808 264 8060. > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Mar 9 17:31:28 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Tue, 9 Mar 2010 14:31:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] On poets "earning their keep" one poem at a time... Message-ID: <197784.24062.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/09/two-poets-earning-their-keep/ Answers/speculations/questions welcome! Amy _______ BOOK Slaves to Do These Things-- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm RANT "My Barbaric Bitch of a Yawp" -- http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2010/02/amy-king.html ESSAY "The What Else"-- http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/Archives/Winter_2009/prose/A_King.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Mar 9 19:38:10 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 09 Mar 2010 19:38:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] A wonderful website Message-ID: http://www.nls.uk/broadsides/. "The Word on the Street." British broadsides. Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From obodooha at gmail.com Wed Mar 10 11:05:40 2010 From: obodooha at gmail.com (Obododimma Oha) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 08:05:40 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Listserv and the Least Served In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71003091313i31de0e42l8ddddfe4e38f3e04@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d71003091313i31de0e42l8ddddfe4e38f3e04@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: You are right, Anny. Italy isn't too distant. There are some common characteristics in listserv engagements. My pic? Well, I guess they sometimes have difficulties with these things.... Will talk to them especially since my column features every week. Regards. Obododimma. On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 1:13 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > You talk of Nigeria... I don't think Italy is too distant. > An interesting article. Couldn't they fit your pic a little better? I know > the question is trivial, > > On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Obododimma Oha wrote: > >> "As a context for sharing ideas, online resources, information, etc, >> listserv is, nevertheless, immensely useful to its subscribers. It is a >> context of education and consciousness-raising. A listserv that has specific >> professional commitments helps its members in their professional development >> a great deal and thus becomes indispensable as the imagined place to meet >> with those who know "the way." >> >> These days that education in a country like Nigeria is in great travail, >> having access to the Internet and subscribing to a listserv where sound >> professional sharing goes on could be one way of maintaining one's >> intellectual wellbeing. Everyday one reads listserv postings and the >> resources shared, one has truly answered "present" in a classroom with >> little or no tuition paid." >> >> Read the full text of "The Listserv and the Least Served" >> at: >> >> >> http://234next.com/csp/cms/sites/Next/Opinion/5537716-184/shibboleth_the_listserv_and_the_least.csp >> >> -- >> Obododimma Oha >> http://udude.wordpress.com/ >> >> Dept. of English >> University of Ibadan >> Nigeria >> >> & >> >> Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies >> University of Ibadan >> >> Phone: +234 803 333 1330; >> +234 805 350 6604; >> +234 808 264 8060. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Obododimma Oha http://udude.wordpress.com/ Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604; +234 808 264 8060. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Wed Mar 10 14:23:32 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2010 11:23:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Somebody likes me after all... Message-ID: <369847.7985.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Up on HTML Giant -- http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ Don't fall in, Amy _______ BOOK Slaves to Do These Things-- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm RANT "My Barbaric Bitch of a Yawp" -- http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2010/02/amy-king.html ESSAY "The What Else"-- http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/Archives/Winter_2009/prose/A_King.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed Mar 10 18:20:58 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 00:20:58 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Prosodic Narratives in the Poetry of Ezra Pound and William Carlos Williams Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003101520ra960372rd7b39445dc5a96ad@mail.gmail.com> Call for MLA papers, Los Angeles, January 2011: A collaborative panel sponsored by the Ezra Pound and William Carlos Williams Societies "Prosodic Narratives in the Poetry of Ezra Pound and William Carlos Williams" Possible topics: the role and the construction of the rhythmic and sonic elements of verse and prose in Pound and Williams poetry, especially The Cantos and Paterson; prosody as an element in the long poems narrative; echoes of and/or transcriptions from poetic and narrative texts made new in Pound and Williams modernist texts; the poetics of prosody and/or narrative in Pound and Williams long poems . . . 250-word abstract and brief c.v. by March 12, 2010, to Demetres P. Tryphonopoulos (demetres at unb.ca). Abstracts will be reviewed by co- organizers Demetres P. Tryphonopoulos, Alec Marsh and Ian Copestake. Demetrioss P. Tryphonopoulos University Research Professor A/Dean, School of Graduate Studies and Professor, Dept. of English Book Reviews Editor, Paideuma Sir Howard Douglas Hall, Room 317, 3 Bailey Drive, Fredericton, NB, Canada E3B 5A3 Tel: 506-453-4673; Fax: 506-453-4817; Demetres at unb.ca; www.unb.ca/gradschol -- Dr. Ian Copestake Secretary/Treasurer, William Carlos Williams Society http://english.ttu.edu/WCWR/ www.lektorat-copestake.eu www.fineartcopy.net Mailing address: Ian Copestake Rebenstrasse 3 60599 Frankfurt am Main Germany -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pihel_e at pipeline.com Thu Mar 11 11:22:44 2010 From: pihel_e at pipeline.com (Erik Pihel) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 08:22:44 -0800 (GMT-08:00) Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World Message-ID: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 12:27:26 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 18:27:26 +0100 Subject: Fwd: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World In-Reply-To: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003110927j24d06289i8f8a5dd30a486fe3@mail.gmail.com> If anyone knows of good subway poems for LightCages.com, please let me know. So far, we've got Pound in the Paris metro, Heaney in a London tube station, Alice Notley and Tom Waits in New York, as well as Vergil in Rome's underground and Dante in Florence. ========================== Light Cages is an inside view into the earth's underground trains. Ever wonder what it's like to ride a Tokyo subway? Or a London tube? Or a Berlin u-bahn? You can view the official maps and transportation guides from various government websites, but Light Cages takes you inside the trains where things are less orderly and predictable. http://www.lightcages.com The scenes are written, photographed, or filmed by passengers who either live or have visited the various underworlds in question. So click the link and explore characters not found in the official brochures. If you have met one of these characters, or are such a character yourself, please join the underground by submitting a scene of your own. Erik Pihel, Editor Light Cages editor at lightcages.com http://www.facebook.com/pages/LightCagescom/331464632498 http://www.youtube.com/user/LightCagesDotCom _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skip at louisiana.edu Thu Mar 11 13:42:34 2010 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 12:42:34 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World In-Reply-To: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Hart Crane's The Bridge, section 7: "The Tunnel." -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Erik Pihel Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 10:23 AM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World If anyone knows of good subway poems for LightCages.com, please let me know. So far, we've got Pound in the Paris metro, Heaney in a London tube station, Alice Notley and Tom Waits in New York, as well as Vergil in Rome's underground and Dante in Florence. ========================== Light Cages is an inside view into the earth's underground trains. Ever wonder what it's like to ride a Tokyo subway? Or a London tube? Or a Berlin u-bahn? You can view the official maps and transportation guides from various government websites, but Light Cages takes you inside the trains where things are less orderly and predictable. http://www.lightcages.com The scenes are written, photographed, or filmed by passengers who either live or have visited the various underworlds in question. So click the link and explore characters not found in the official brochures. If you have met one of these characters, or are such a character yourself, please join the underground by submitting a scene of your own. Erik Pihel, Editor Light Cages editor at lightcages.com http://www.facebook.com/pages/LightCagescom/331464632498 http://www.youtube.com/user/LightCagesDotCom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Mar 11 13:51:02 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 19:51:02 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71003110927j24d06289i8f8a5dd30a486fe3@mail.gmail.com> References: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <4b65c2d71003110927j24d06289i8f8a5dd30a486fe3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003111051q3991cb40ja5d23f6c8f364888@mail.gmail.com> Opps sorry, I thought this mail would be of interest to New Poetry. On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 6:27 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > > If anyone knows of good subway poems for LightCages.com, please let me > know. So far, we've got Pound in the Paris metro, Heaney in a London tube > station, Alice Notley and Tom Waits in New York, as well as Vergil in Rome's > underground and Dante in Florence. > > ========================== > > Light Cages is an inside view into the earth's underground trains. Ever > wonder what it's like to ride a Tokyo subway? Or a London tube? Or a > Berlin u-bahn? You can view the official maps and transportation guides > from various government websites, but Light Cages takes you inside the > trains where things are less orderly and predictable. > > http://www.lightcages.com > > The scenes are written, photographed, or filmed by passengers who either > live or have visited the various underworlds in question. So click the link > and explore characters not found in the official brochures. If you have met > one of these characters, or are such a character yourself, please join the > underground by submitting a scene of your own. > > Erik Pihel, Editor > Light Cages > editor at lightcages.com > http://www.facebook.com/pages/LightCagescom/331464632498 > http://www.youtube.com/user/LightCagesDotCom > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Mar 11 18:34:55 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:34:55 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World In-Reply-To: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <91BD8BF3-4AA4-429C-BE67-6685A243DBCF@ripon.edu> One of my favorites. . . . The Color Of Stepped On Gum is the color of our times. The light of our times is the light in the 14th St. subway at 2 a.m. The air of our times is the air of the Greyhound depot, Market & Sixth. It is prime time. A passed out sailor sits pitched forward like a sack of laundry in a plastic bucket seat his forehead resting on the movie of the week. The Long Goodbye. --Tom Clark. When Things Get Tough on Easy Street. Black Sparrow, 1978: 148. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Mar 11, 2010, at 10:22 AM, Erik Pihel wrote: > If anyone knows of good subway poems for LightCages.com, please let me know. So far, we've got Pound in the Paris metro, Heaney in a London tube station, Alice Notley and Tom Waits in New York, as well as Vergil in Rome's underground and Dante in Florence. > > ========================== > > Light Cages is an inside view into the earth's underground trains. Ever wonder what it's like to ride a Tokyo subway? Or a London tube? Or a Berlin u-bahn? You can view the official maps and transportation guides from various government websites, but Light Cages takes you inside the trains where things are less orderly and predictable. > > http://www.lightcages.com > > The scenes are written, photographed, or filmed by passengers who either live or have visited the various underworlds in question. So click the link and explore characters not found in the official brochures. If you have met one of these characters, or are such a character yourself, please join the underground by submitting a scene of your own. > > Erik Pihel, Editor > Light Cages > editor at lightcages.com > http://www.facebook.com/pages/LightCagescom/331464632498 > http://www.youtube.com/user/LightCagesDotCom > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Mar 11 18:39:09 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 17:39:09 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World In-Reply-To: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5EE30E77-6FFA-4148-BFA4-7AA14C63CA70@ripon.edu> Another old favorite: Graffiti Blessings on all the kids who improve the signs in the subways: They put a beard on the fashionable lady selling soap, Fix up her flat chest with the boobies of a chorus girl, And though her hips be wrapped like a mummy They draw a hairy cunt where she should have one. The bathing beauty who looks pleased With the enormous prick in her mouth, declares "Eat hair pie; it's better than cornflakes." And the little boy in the Tarzan suit eating white bread Now has a fine pair of balls to crow about. And as often as you wash the walls and put up your posters, When you go back to the caged booth to deal out change The bright-eyed kids will come with grubby hands. Even if you watch, you cannot watch them all the time, And while you are dreaming, if you have dreams anymore, A boy and girl are giggling behind an iron pillar; And although the train pulls in and takes them on their way Into a winter that will freeze them forever, They leave behind a wall scrawled all over with flowers That shoot great drops of gism through the sky. -- Edward Field. Counting Myself Lucky: Selected Poems 1963-1992. Black Sparrow Press. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Mar 11, 2010, at 10:22 AM, Erik Pihel wrote: > If anyone knows of good subway poems for LightCages.com, please let me know. So far, we've got Pound in the Paris metro, Heaney in a London tube station, Alice Notley and Tom Waits in New York, as well as Vergil in Rome's underground and Dante in Florence. > > ========================== > > Light Cages is an inside view into the earth's underground trains. Ever wonder what it's like to ride a Tokyo subway? Or a London tube? Or a Berlin u-bahn? You can view the official maps and transportation guides from various government websites, but Light Cages takes you inside the trains where things are less orderly and predictable. > > http://www.lightcages.com > > The scenes are written, photographed, or filmed by passengers who either live or have visited the various underworlds in question. So click the link and explore characters not found in the official brochures. If you have met one of these characters, or are such a character yourself, please join the underground by submitting a scene of your own. > > Erik Pihel, Editor > Light Cages > editor at lightcages.com > http://www.facebook.com/pages/LightCagescom/331464632498 > http://www.youtube.com/user/LightCagesDotCom > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Mar 11 21:05:34 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 21:05:34 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World In-Reply-To: <5EE30E77-6FFA-4148-BFA4-7AA14C63CA70@ripon.edu> References: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <5EE30E77-6FFA-4148-BFA4-7AA14C63CA70@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <8CC8F9FA1D066A8-2E04-40CC@webmail-d024.sysops.aol.com> Mine in two places: http://www.thebusbench.com/2010/01/poetry-abandoned-subway-stop-by-jim-finnegan.html http://poetry.about.com/library/weekly/bljfinnegan.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Thu Mar 11 21:08:06 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 21:08:06 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World In-Reply-To: <91BD8BF3-4AA4-429C-BE67-6685A243DBCF@ripon.edu> References: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <91BD8BF3-4AA4-429C-BE67-6685A243DBCF@ripon.edu> Message-ID: Paul Blackburn wrote a few: The Franklin Avenue Line, Clickety-Clack, The Once-Over, Meditation on the BMT, Ritual VII. There are others. B/c for permissions info. And I'd be surprised if a search of Reznikoff and Joel Oppenheimer didn't turn up a few. Look for Walker Evans' subway photos. Here's one of mine: No Title On the subway radiant blond hair frightened eyes a girl an angel. I look again. A girl on the verge of tears. When I look again it's to wonder which of the newcomers wore rose-water so lavishly that it filled the car and I imagined myself in a garden. Here's another: SUBWAY TO MANHATTAN the white light reflected from snow still falling, and the impact that has on white faces--cleans them. from the el, where Manhattan's boxes were, a scrim divides reality. black men standing by the windows glow as if burnished, and this section of Brooklyn becomes a milltown. a scrim that divides this reality from the facade of the power that would deny it. on the train some laugh tiredly, some sleep. and the woman who greeted me upon entry, her face bubbled with lesions, locked into quiet astonishment at my start, after years of seeing it on other faces, as if to say, "then I must live isolated after all," now underground in a blizzard. Best, Mark At 06:34 PM 3/11/2010, you wrote: >One of my favorites. . . . > > >The Color Of Stepped On Gum > >is the color of our times. >The light of our times is >the light in the 14th St. >subway at 2 a.m. The air >of our times is the air of the >Greyhound depot, Market >& Sixth. It is prime time. A passed >out sailor sits pitched >forward like a sack of laundry >in a plastic bucket seat >his forehead resting on >the movie of the week. The Long Goodbye. > >--Tom Clark. When Things Get Tough on Easy Street. Black Sparrow, 1978: 148. > >======================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu > >Home Page: >http://web.me.com/drjazz > >Poetry Library: >http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >========================================== > > > > >On Mar 11, 2010, at 10:22 AM, Erik Pihel wrote: > >>If anyone knows of good subway poems for >>LightCages.com, please let me know. So far, >>we've got Pound in the Paris metro, Heaney in a London tube >>station, Alice Notley and Tom Waits in New York, as well as Vergil >>in Rome's underground and Dante in Florence. >> >>========================== >> >>Light Cages is an inside view into the earth's underground >>trains. Ever wonder what it's like to ride a Tokyo subway? Or a >>London tube? Or a Berlin u-bahn? You can view the official maps >>and transportation guides from various government websites, but >>Light Cages takes you inside the trains where things are less >>orderly and predictable. >> >>http://www.lightcages.com >> >>The scenes are written, photographed, or filmed by passengers who >>either live or have visited the various underworlds in >>question. So click the link and explore characters not found in >>the official brochures. If you have met one of these characters, >>or are such a character yourself, please join the underground by >>submitting a scene of your own. >> >>Erik Pihel, Editor >>Light Cages >>editor at lightcages.com >>http://www.facebook.com/pages/LightCagescom/331464632498 >>http://www.youtube.com/user/LightCagesDotCom >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Mar 11 21:49:57 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 21:49:57 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Three Percent Message-ID: <8CC8FA5D5B60C79-3428-4473@webmail-m040.sysops.aol.com> http://www.cbc.ca/arts/books/story/2010/03/11/translation-prize.html The poetry prize went to Elena Fanailova's The Russian Version, translated by Genya Turovskaya and Stephanie Sandler and published by Ugly Duckling Presse. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Mar 11 22:00:18 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 22:00:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Happy Poet Message-ID: <8CC8FA7481C2199-3428-465E@webmail-m040.sysops.aol.com> http://austinist.com/2010/03/10/sxsw_film_interview_paul_gordon_dir.php SXSW Film Interview: Paul Gordon directs The Happy Poet www.happypoetmovie.com Paul Gordon is a filmmaker, actor and Austin resident whose film The Happy Poet will enjoy its world premiere this weekend at the 2010 SXSW film festival. The narrative feature tells the story of a poet and food cart vendor who is trying to make the world a better place in spite of various economic, romantic and hotdog-related obstacles. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Thu Mar 11 22:46:33 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2010 22:46:33 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Three Percent In-Reply-To: <8CC8FA5D5B60C79-3428-4473@webmail-m040.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC8FA5D5B60C79-3428-4473@webmail-m040.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Wow. I've known Genya since she was a teenager. Richly deserved. She's also a fine poet. At 09:49 PM 3/11/2010, you wrote: >http://www.cbc.ca/arts/books/story/2010/03/11/translation-prize.html > >The poetry prize went to Elena Fanailova's The Russian Version, >translated by Genya Turovskaya and Stephanie Sandler and published >by Ugly Duckling Presse. > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Mar 12 00:30:35 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 06:30:35 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World In-Reply-To: <8CC8F9FA1D066A8-2E04-40CC@webmail-d024.sysops.aol.com> References: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <5EE30E77-6FFA-4148-BFA4-7AA14C63CA70@ripon.edu> <8CC8F9FA1D066A8-2E04-40CC@webmail-d024.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003112130l4243d584q325aa6475ad7e2bb@mail.gmail.com> I remember this poem, I loved it then, I love it now. Probably the one on Poetry.com. On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 3:05 AM, wrote: > Mine in two places: > > http://www.thebusbench.com/2010/01/poetry-abandoned-subway-stop-by-jim-finnegan.html > > http://poetry.about.com/library/weekly/bljfinnegan.htm > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Mar 12 03:40:08 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 09:40:08 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Happy Poet In-Reply-To: <8CC8FA7481C2199-3428-465E@webmail-m040.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC8FA7481C2199-3428-465E@webmail-m040.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003120040q4b584ae4n606b3341219897f6@mail.gmail.com> That could be an idea... I'll put it in the "Other Possibilities" backpack, as we all know, one never knows. On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 4:00 AM, wrote: > http://austinist.com/2010/03/10/sxsw_film_interview_paul_gordon_dir.php > SXSW Film Interview: Paul Gordon directs The Happy Poet > www.happypoetmovie.com > > Paul Gordon is a filmmaker, actor and Austin resident whose film The Happy > Poet will enjoy its world premiere this weekend at the 2010 SXSW film > festival. The narrative feature tells the story of a poet and food cart > vendor who is trying to make the world a better place in spite of various > economic, romantic and hotdog-related obstacles. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Mar 12 08:45:27 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 14:45:27 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] from Quale Press Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003120545r3ea30f2apfb8c01445774df97@mail.gmail.com> Quale Press is pleased to announce the publication of *(nevertheless enjoyment ,* prose poems by Elizabeth Bryant . With vivid language that denies easily attained unambiguous and unlayered emotion, the poems in *(nevertheless enjoyment* examine and reexamine what satisfaction means through the lens of intimate experience. From [s]lumps in the middle where history is to [t]he drab-colored female being more of a challenge, Elizabeth Bryant portrays details of lifes challenges in surprising and, at times, unsettling terms. Central to this work of serial prose poetry is the concept of *jouissance*, sometimes loosely translated as enjoyment. Bryant uses the word to convey not only pleasure, happiness, achievement and satisfaction, but also fixation, difficulty, obstruction and conflict. These nuanced poems convey the sense that a precise understanding of jouissance is elusive and may be fully perceived only in hindsight. Showing the influence of writers such as Lyn Hejinian, Leslie Scalapino and Carla Harryman, Bryants direct prose illustrates a series of bittersweet and timeless vignettes. *(nevertheless enjoyment* provides evidence of an ever-present life force that is at once ineffable and brutally powerful. Elizabeth Bryant was born in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn. She is the author of three chapbooks, most recently *Fluorescence Buzz *(Dusie Press, 2009). Her forthcoming books include *No Subject* (Dusie Kollektiv, 2010) and *Reality Visits the Land of Illusions* (Black Radish Books, 2010). She co-curates the Bard Roving Reading series, and intermittently publishes an experimental project known as *Defeffable*. *(nevertheless enjoyment ,* by *Elizabeth Bryant* ISBN: 978-0-9792999-9-5 Perfect Bound, $13.00 Publication Date: March 1, 2010 5.5 x 7.75 inches, 74 pages Prose Poetry/Poetry *Individuals:* Order directly from Small Press Distribution , 1-800-869-7553. *Bookstores:* Order through Small Press Distribution . -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Mar 12 10:26:14 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:26:14 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] ARAKAWA & GINS Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003120726m1c18ee9di1828de70db5d723b@mail.gmail.com> An exceptional event, do not miss it! Re: First Day of AG3-Online! "Hi Anny: go to http://www.facebook.com/l/ba18c;ag3.griffith.edu.au and you will see a button to get instructions for registering, which is free and easy. Hope to see you there! -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Mar 12 10:45:30 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:45:30 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71003110927j24d06289i8f8a5dd30a486fe3@mail.gmail.com> References: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <4b65c2d71003110927j24d06289i8f8a5dd30a486fe3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CC90122D46F63F-21EC-FB7F@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> http://www.painting-palace.com/en/paintings/36158 The art critic Thomas Crowe has written about this Edward Hopper picture regarding his notion of 'zero point' in art. If I can find a paragraph or two I'll post. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:27 pm Subject: Fwd: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World If anyone knows of good subway poems for LightCages.com, please let me know. So far, we've got Pound in the Paris metro, Heaney in a London tube station, Alice Notley and Tom Waits in New York, as well as Vergil in Rome's underground and Dante in Florence. ========================== Light Cages is an inside view into the earth's underground trains. Ever wonder what it's like to ride a Tokyo subway? Or a London tube? Or a Berlin u-bahn? You can view the official maps and transportation guides from various government websites, but Light Cages takes you inside the trains where things are less orderly and predictable. http://www.lightcages.com The scenes are written, photographed, or filmed by passengers who either live or have visited the various underworlds in question. So click the link and explore characters not found in the official brochures. If you have met one of these characters, or are such a character yourself, please join the underground by submitting a scene of your own. Erik Pihel, Editor Light Cages editor at lightcages.com http://www.facebook.com/pages/LightCagescom/331464632498 http://www.youtube.com/user/LightCagesDotCom _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Mar 12 10:48:19 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:48:19 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World In-Reply-To: <8CC90122D46F63F-21EC-FB7F@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> References: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net><4b65c2d71003110927j24d06289i8f8a5dd30a486fe3@mail.gmail.com> <8CC90122D46F63F-21EC-FB7F@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC9012926A9719-21EC-FC78@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> http://www.phillipscollection.org/research/american_art/learning/hopper-learning.htm Appears that the correct title of Hopper painting is "Approaching a City". -----Original Message----- From: jforjames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Fri, Mar 12, 2010 10:45 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World http://www.painting-palace.com/en/paintings/36158 The art critic Thomas Crowe has written about this Edward Hopper picture regarding his notion of 'zero point' in art. If I can find a paragraph or two I'll post. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:27 pm Subject: Fwd: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World If anyone knows of good subway poems for LightCages.com, please let me know. So far, we've got Pound in the Paris metro, Heaney in a London tube station, Alice Notley and Tom Waits in New York, as well as Vergil in Rome's underground and Dante in Florence. ========================== Light Cages is an inside view into the earth's underground trains. Ever wonder what it's like to ride a Tokyo subway? Or a London tube? Or a Berlin u-bahn? You can view the official maps and transportation guides from various government websites, but Light Cages takes you inside the trains where things are less orderly and predictable. http://www.lightcages.com The scenes are written, photographed, or filmed by passengers who either live or have visited the various underworlds in question. So click the link and explore characters not found in the official brochures. If you have met one of these characters, or are such a character yourself, please join the underground by submitting a scene of your own. Erik Pihel, Editor Light Cages editor at lightcages.com http://www.facebook.com/pages/LightCagescom/331464632498 http://www.youtube.com/user/LightCagesDotCom _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Mar 12 10:52:50 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:52:50 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World In-Reply-To: <8CC9012926A9719-21EC-FC78@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> References: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <4b65c2d71003110927j24d06289i8f8a5dd30a486fe3@mail.gmail.com> <8CC90122D46F63F-21EC-FB7F@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> <8CC9012926A9719-21EC-FC78@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003120752r1d57b74aj5fdf5129faa5694d@mail.gmail.com> I came up with this: http://www.poetryfoundation.org/archive/poem.html?id=176266 Forrest Gander in the Ruined Tunnel_ On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 4:48 PM, wrote: > > http://www.phillipscollection.org/research/american_art/learning/hopper-learning.htm > Appears that the correct title of Hopper painting is "Approaching a City". > > > -----Original Message----- > From: jforjames at aol.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Fri, Mar 12, 2010 10:45 am > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, > and Subways from around the World > > http://www.painting-palace.com/en/paintings/36158 > > The art critic Thomas Crowe has written about this Edward Hopper picture > regarding his notion of 'zero point' in art. > If I can find a paragraph or two I'll post. > Finnegan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anny Ballardini > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Sent: Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:27 pm > Subject: Fwd: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, > and Subways from around the World > > > > If anyone knows of good subway poems for LightCages.com, please let me > know. So far, we've got Pound in the Paris metro, Heaney in a London tube > station, Alice Notley and Tom Waits in New York, as well as Vergil in Rome's > underground and Dante in Florence. > > ========================== > > Light Cages is an inside view into the earth's underground trains. Ever > wonder what it's like to ride a Tokyo subway? Or a London tube? Or a > Berlin u-bahn? You can view the official maps and transportation guides > from various government websites, but Light Cages takes you inside the > trains where things are less orderly and predictable. > > http://www.lightcages.com > > The scenes are written, photographed, or filmed by passengers who either > live or have visited the various underworlds in question. So click the link > and explore characters not found in the official brochures. If you have met > one of these characters, or are such a character yourself, please join the > underground by submitting a scene of your own. > > Erik Pihel, Editor > Light Cages > editor at lightcages.com > http://www.facebook.com/pages/LightCagescom/331464632498 > http://www.youtube.com/user/LightCagesDotCom > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Mar 12 10:56:59 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 16:56:59 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World In-Reply-To: <8CC9012926A9719-21EC-FC78@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> References: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <4b65c2d71003110927j24d06289i8f8a5dd30a486fe3@mail.gmail.com> <8CC90122D46F63F-21EC-FB7F@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> <8CC9012926A9719-21EC-FC78@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003120756i4acef743t18113cff72f882d2@mail.gmail.com> On the subway by Sharon Olds http://www.poetrymagazines.org.uk/magazine/record.asp?id=2161 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Mar 12 11:07:22 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 17:07:22 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71003120756i4acef743t18113cff72f882d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <4b65c2d71003110927j24d06289i8f8a5dd30a486fe3@mail.gmail.com> <8CC90122D46F63F-21EC-FB7F@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> <8CC9012926A9719-21EC-FC78@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d71003120756i4acef743t18113cff72f882d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003120807l1395f020v6863c0896f00ef8e@mail.gmail.com> Simon and Garfunkel: A Poem on the Underground Wall http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6dJdf_Vjt4&feature=related -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Mar 12 11:09:30 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 17:09:30 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71003120807l1395f020v6863c0896f00ef8e@mail.gmail.com> References: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <4b65c2d71003110927j24d06289i8f8a5dd30a486fe3@mail.gmail.com> <8CC90122D46F63F-21EC-FB7F@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> <8CC9012926A9719-21EC-FC78@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d71003120756i4acef743t18113cff72f882d2@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71003120807l1395f020v6863c0896f00ef8e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003120809m1a28b1d3ta96c37270680a5c4@mail.gmail.com> Even better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9sWiuWm37w&NR=1 in the original version, 1967 On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 5:07 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Simon and Garfunkel: > A Poem on the Underground Wall > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6dJdf_Vjt4&feature=related > > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From skip at louisiana.edu Fri Mar 12 11:20:54 2010 From: skip at louisiana.edu (Skip Fox) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 10:20:54 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71003120756i4acef743t18113cff72f882d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0AC02F98341A40FE8F7FF1D123216A41@win.louisiana.edu> Zukofsky's "'Mantis': An Interpretation" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Mar 12 21:56:22 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 21:56:22 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 In-Reply-To: <9781493745a91e534144f85f0eb89bf2@lists.spdbooks.org> References: <9781493745a91e534144f85f0eb89bf2@lists.spdbooks.org> Message-ID: <8CC906FE5F6A2BF-4FC4-6A8B@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> Sent: Fri, Mar 12, 2010 4:28 pm Subject: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 NEW LIT GEN | BLOG | FACEBOOK | TWITTER | FROM THE VAULT! | DONATE TO SPD Try Electronic Ordering! SPD is on Pubnet, SAN: 1066617. Questions? Contact Clay at clay at spdbooks.org orders at spdbooks.org | www.spdbooks.org 1.800.869.7553 | fax: 1.510.524.0852 ROAR. New Poetry from Chax Press REASON AND OTHER WOMEN Alice Notley $21 | paper | 191 pp. Chax Press ISBN: 9780925904843 Poetry. "This is an immense book, one in which Notley takes language, as she has it, 'from hearsay to heresy' by the speed and awe of an unwavering attention to the seams, seems and semes of words and sentences. This is the work of an iconoclast, a semioclast, where semantics become seme-antics, and the byz-antics and -antiques from Christianity to Christine are molten down & recast into 21st Century mental shapes in the red-hot heart-red retort of a present day alchemist of mind. Alice Notley has the uncanny ability to go from the everyday mundane to the psycho-cosmic in one warp-speed stutter or typo-graphical stumble, at what Andr? Breton called 'la vitesse grand V.' This is writing of the highest order"?Pierre Joris. LINK? New Poetry from Ahsahta Press CHORA Sandra Doller $17.50 | paper | 128 pp. Ahsahta Press ISBN: 9781934103128 Poetry. Sandra Doller's tricky, sly language comes at you sideways, full of coinages and puns, and is obsessed with lines: the highways and train tracks that cross deserts; lines from jokes and ghost stories; and lines of influence?Gertrude Stein implicitly, and H.D. explicitly. Doller is not concerned with the complete or the perfect; she shows us the torn edge of notebook paper, "the american wastrel" in a yellow dress, and characters who plead, in a reversal of Goethe's last words, for "no more light." LINK? New Poetry from Flood Editions EFFACEMENT Elizabeth Arnold $14.95 | paper | 96 pp. Flood Editions ISBN: 9780981952024 Poetry. "In this remarkable new book, Elizabeth Arnold focuses on what certain bodies undergo against forces that efface them. Physical law has it that 'what pokes out gets hit.' Limbs, noses, and jaws are blown off. There are mastectomies. Prosthetic reconstruction is 'flesh displaced.' Some of those who experience it learn that there is now between them and the ones they love a wall of cancelled desire. 'One can adjust to this, they say, but not // from it.' Losses such as these italicize how unlikely it was to begin with that any soul should ever have made its way into a body out of the oblivion that precedes birth. Death too is that oblivion. Its 'fingers' open the face out of which 'something // inner joins the surface' as soon as the eyes ask for help"?James McMichael. LINK? New Poetry from Kelsey Street Press AERODROME ORION & STARRY MESSENGER Susan Gevirtz $17.95 | paper | 63 pp. Kelsey Street Press ISBN: 9780932716712 Poetry. "It's not possible to be more phenomenologically direct than the poetry on these pages. This is removal of the obstacles of perception, beginning with perception, often by means of the obstacles themselves. This is what the sky is. All other skies in this one. There is a host of impossibilities to be found in AERODROME ORION & STARRY MESSENGER. Susan Gevirtz's page is both an inclusion of a scale too vast for inclusion and a selection of the minutiae that includes it. Someone might say 'air.' She has said 'astro stage.' I'd introduce the Sanskrit term 'akasa' (akasa is free or open space?the most primary and pervasive of elements?medium of life and sound). What is all over the place is normally not only beyond our grasp, it's not even noticeable. A path is usually cut or carved. Yet her paths are melted into the medium that is itself the way. This is incredibly accurate with regard to consciousness when we are indeed conscious. Terribly limited terms are not only not obstacles, they're instrumental and indispensable in opening the view?like little portals. Like latches. Like Lockheed's P3 Orion 4 engine aircraft. Hers is a prosody that responds to the physical forces of flight. She measures in leap seconds (again, not possible). Just as she has asked of a feather, I can with like awe and admiration ask of each page of this work: 'how can there be such a thing as'"?Robert Kocik. LINK? New Poetry from Sidebrow Books ON WONDERLAND & WASTE Sandy Florian $20 | paper | 104 pp. Sidebrow Books ISBN: 9780981497518 Poetry. Sandy Florian's ON WONDERLAND & WASTE is a novel in narratives bent on exposing the mind as an instrument of language "not entirely there." Featuring full-color collages [VIEW SAMPLE] by Alexis Anne Mackenzie, these 12 lyrical meditations on desire, delirium, duty, and dismemberment destabilize what we can measure of the meaning underlying our experience with a visceral diction that reminds us that "the sharpest of tongues cut their own throats first." LINK? New Poetry from Wave Books BLACK LIFE Dorothea Lasky $14 | paper | 77 pp. Wave Books ISBN: 9781933517438 Poetry. In her brazen second collection, Dorothea Lasky cries out beyond prophecy and confession, through to an even more powerful empathy. On the verge of becoming pure substance and sensation, BLACK LIFE is emotion recollected not in tranquility, but in radically affirming intensity. LINK? New Poetry from Harbor Mountain Press RUMORED ISLANDS Robert Farnsworth $14 | paper | 88 pp. Harbor Mountain Press ISBN: 9780981556031 Poetry. Robert Farnsworth's first two books were published by Wesleyan University Press. Twenty years later, Harbor Mountain Press brings out Farnsworth's next: fine narrative poems made of patina and salt, family memory and youthful outlook, reality and regret. "Farnsworth returns with poems of wonder and shame, loneliness and 'the strange, sun-spun fabric of the world.' In carefully sculpted lines, alternately lyrical and narrative, cultured and stripped down, he offers poems that arrive unannounced and track the unexpected turns life takes, the way an unanticipated moment can become part of a story we were meant to hear"?Publishers Weekly, starred review. LINK? New Poetry from Canarium Books THE WASTE LAND AND OTHER POEMS John Beer $14 | paper | 128 pp. Canarium Books ISBN: 9780982237649 Poetry. John Beer's first collection, THE WASTE LAND AND OTHER POEMS, employs the wit of a philosopher and the ear of a poet to stage ways of reading that are political, personal, and theoretical. The speaker of these poems also brings humor to the dissecting table, to prod the legacies of great works of the imagination while balancing irony and affection. LINK? New Poetry from Talisman House COLLECTED POEMS Gustaf Sobin $27.95 | paper | 756 pp. Talisman House ISBN: 9781584980728 Poetry. Edited by Andrew Joron and Andrew Zawacki. "Gustaf Sobin's poems, whose principal heaven is a dawn field in Provence, have always traced a path to the Absolute. His work, which finally must be ranked with that of Celan and Ren? Char, causes language to exceed its own condition. Here, words find their true home in exile, a caesura accurately, & exquisitely, measured in lines indistinguishable from musical notation. Indeed, Sobin plucks a music beyond hearing from the strands of a fallen world, & so perfects the art of making 'manifest omissions'"?Andrew Joron. LINK? New Fiction from BlazeVOX Books CHE. A NOVELLA IN THREE PARTS Peter Money $16 | paper | 210 pp. BlazeVOX Books ISBN: 9781935402862 Fiction. "Extraordinary...an ocean of beautiful and harrowing language that casts up its characters like great drift logs seen through heavy surf. The novella...speaks to and out of his refusal of artificial separations between the possibilities of art and the strictures of history.... Peter reveals a commitment to the beauty and precision of language?lyrical flights end-stopped by a sentence like a punch to the gut: 'People died trying.' This is writing that requires readers to think and feel in equal measures"?Jan Clausen. "Epic"?Christian Peet. LINK? New Fiction from Spuyten Duyvil A LESSER DAY Andrea Scrima $16 | paper | 290 pp. Spuyten Duyvil ISBN: 9781933132778 Fiction. When the narrator travels to New York to attend her father's funeral shortly after November 9, 1989, the day the Berlin Wall fell, a period begins in which her hold on reality grows increasingly tenuous. Hiding away in her studio with her father's journals, her paintings building up inch by inch in a fruitless attempt to come to terms with human mortality, she sets about deciphering her father's encoded script. Addressing a continually shifting "you" in a search for emotional understanding initially directed at the author's dead father and then merging into a blur of intimate others, A LESSER DAY explores the mechanisms of memory and suppression in an era of political upheaval. Little escapes the author's scrutinizing eye as she locates meaning in the passage of time as it inscribes itself into the myriad things around us: the mute, insentient witnesses of our everyday existence. LINK? New Fiction from The Green Lantern Press FASCIA Ashley Donielle Murray $20 | paper | 149 pp. The Green Lantern Press ISBN: 9780982029251 Fiction. FASCIA is a series of Southern vignettes describing various angles of life, from the silent-movie starlet, to the high school prom queen approaching middle age, to the adolescent boy. In each story there is a delicate web of familial and communal relationships that intersect, overlap and impede on the landscape. Printed in an edition of 500 with silkscreen covers by Nadine Nakanishi of Sonnenzimmer. LINK? New Poetry from Quale Press (NEVERTHELESS ENJOYMENT Elizabeth Bryant $13 | paper | 74 pp. Quale Press ISBN: 9780979299995 Poetry. "With vivid language that denies easily attained unambiguous and unlayered emotion, the pieces in (NEVERTHELESS ENJOYMENT examine and reexamine what satisfaction means through the lens of intimate experience. From 'slumps in the middle where history is,' to 'the drab-colored female being more of a challenge,' Elizabeth Bryant portrays details of the human condition in surprising and unsettling terms. Central to this work of serial prose poetry is the Lacanian psychoanalytic concept 'jouissance,' which is oftentimes loosely translated as 'enjoyment.' Bryant uses the word to convey not only pleasure, joy, achievement and satisfaction, but also fixation, difficulty, obstruction and conflict. This nuanced volume conveys the sense that a precise understanding of jouissance is elusive, and may be fully perceived only in hindsight. Showing the influence of writers such as Lyn Hejinian, Leslie Scalapino and Carla Harryman, Elizabeth Bryant's direct prose provides evidence of an ever-present life force that is at once ineffable and brutally powerful"?Gian Lombardo. LINK? New Poetry from Book Thug (MADE) Cara Benson $17 | paper | 63 pp. Book Thug ISBN: 9781897388563 Poetry. "In the magical dictionary of (MADE), Cara Benson renders hotel facades in 'marshmallow'?not a color, but the surface?a substance I associate, at least in North America, with outdoor recreational fires. That hotel is going to burn to a crisp, in the social and planetary imaginary of Benson's intense work. What's particularly successful about this collection is the fact that this projective, impossible, ruined image does not have a place in the book, but, rather, appears/can appear: in the body of the reader: reading. Images are tracked not just for their futures but for their past versions ('garbage')?in which we 'wander, but delete, too.' 'How can you aim a fire?' asks Benson, in the 'cold axis' of an aftermath in which the earth is an 'orange' orbiting or attracting the 'jagged spark lines' of the sky. What breaks the sky. This is writing from the holocene. It's not trajectory. It's not narrative. It's vibration"?Bhanu Kapil. LINK? New Poetry from Marsh Hawk Press THE THORN ROSARY: SELECTED PROSE POEMS, 1998-2010 Eileen R. Tabios $19.95 | paper | pp. Marsh Hawk Press ISBN: 9780984117727 Poetry. THE THORN ROSARY offers a selection of prose poems written by Eileen R. Tabios, including poems from hard-to-find early books and as released in the past twelve years by publishers in the U.S., Philippines, Australia and Finland. Advance words include, from John Olson: "Tabios is a seamstress of the surreal, combining erudition and art historical references with flourishes of verbal color and surge. Ramifications at the fringe of consciousness thread brocades of textural ardor in a luster of compound interest. Her work ... is 'a blissful difficulty,' ... a perception with a nerve." LINK? New Poetry Anthology from Shearsman Books INFINITE DIFFERENCE: OTHER POETRIES BY U.K. WOMEN POETS Carrie Etter, Editor $20 | paper | 198 pp. Shearsman Books ISBN: 9781848610996 Poetry. Edited by Carrie Etter. An anthology of radical new women's poetry from the United Kingdom, INFINITE DIFFERENCE features work by Sascha Akhtar, Isobel Armstrong, Caroline Bergvall, Elisabeth Bletsoe, Anne Blonstein, Andrea Brady, Emily Critchley, Claire Crowther, Carrie Etter, Catherine Hales, Frances Kruk, Rachel Lehrman, Sophie Mayer, Marianne Morris, Wendy Mulford, Redell Olsen, Frances Presley, Anna Reckin, Carlyle Reedy, Sophie Robinson, Lucy Sheerman, Zoe Skoulding, Harriet Tarlo, and Carol Watts. LINK? New Gender Studies from Inanna Publications SOCIETIES OF PEACE: MATRIARCHIES PAST PRESENT AND FUTURE Heidi Goettner-Abendroth, Editor $39.95 | paper | 449 pp. Inanna Publications ISBN: 9780978223359 Nonfiction. Gender Studies. Political Science. SOCIETIES OF PEACE: MATRIARCHIES PAST PRESENT AND FUTURE, edited by Heide Goettner-Abendroth, celebrates women's largely ignored and/or invisible contribution to culture by exploring matriarchal societies that have existed in the past and that continue to exist today in certain parts of the world. Matriarchal societies, primarily shaped by women, have a non violent social order in which all living creatures are respected without the exploitation of humans, animals or nature. They are well-balanced and peaceful societies in which domination is unknown and all beings are treated equally. This book presents these largely misunderstood societies, both past and present, to the wider public, as alternative social and cultural models that promote trust, mutuality, and abundance for all. LINK? New Poetry from Red Dragonfly Press FIRST WORDS Joyce Sutphen $15 | paper | 104 pp. Red Dragonfly Press ISBN: 9781890193911 Poetry. Joyce Sutphen grew up on a working dairy farm, and her poems recover this lost world, with all its beauty and order. This collection traces a shift in the rural landscape from horses to tractors, from haystacks to hay bales?-and watches as time ages and changes the people who make up the story. FIRST WORDS is both elegy and celebration?-ultimately its center is family, then and now. LINK? New Poetry in Translation from Ugly Duckling Presse 5 METERS OF POEMS Carlos Oquendo de Amat 25 | paper | pp. Ugly Duckling Presse ISBN: 9781933254593 Poetry. Latino/Latina Studies. Bilingual Edition. Accordian-style binding in a limited edition of 750. Translated from the Spanish by Alejandro de Acosta and Joshua Beckman. Carlos Oquendo de Amat wrote 5 METERS OF POEMS (5 metros de poemas) from 1923 to 1925. It was published in a very small edition in December 1927. Carlos Oquendo de Amat's only book of poems bears the stamp of the influence of European Avant Gardes; at the same time it is clearly a corner-stone for what would later become Concrete Poetry. This special bilingual accordion-book edition of 5 METERS OF POEMS designed by Megan Mangum features a new English translation by Alejandro de Acosta and Joshua Beckman. Four additional poems are printed on the inside of the book's cover wrap, thus making this edition a complete presentation of Oquendo de Amat's known writings. LINK? New Essays from Subpress ANOTHER LOOK: SELECTED PROSE Gary Lenhart $14 | paper | 113 pp. Subpress ISBN: 9781930068445 Literary Nonfiction. Poetry History & Criticism. Poetics. "Opinions tend to be uninteresting, which is one of the reasons why I always like reading poet Gary Lenhart's critical pieces: he gives us far more than thumbs up or thumbs down. In his clean, clear prose, Lenhart comes across as companionable, smart, well-read, alert, and sane. He has no terrible axes to grind and he never lords it over the work under scrutiny. Even on those rare occasions when I disagree with him, I trust his probity, I am delighted by his wit, and I applaud the fact that ultimately he is rooting for everyone to write well"?Ron Padgett. LINK? New Drama from BlazeVOX Books LOST POET: FOUR PLAYS BY JESSE GLASS Jesse Glass $20 | paper | 145 pp. BlazeVOX Books ISBN: 9781935402398 Drama. In this selection of plays, Jesse Glass's imagination rages, leaps and staggers from the Challenger disaster of 1986 to the hallucinated lucubrations of Thomas Holley Chivers (friend and rival of Edgar Allan Poe), and manages to cover the arrival of a cosmic, sexual vermiform lemure of the Kabbalistic Bohu-Tohu in a reportorial manner worthy of N.P.R., while ringing the changes on a young man's sexual angst in the face of the ambiguities of the Summerland. Visionary, gutteral, Artaudian, relentless, filled with the televised promise of a black and white yesterday and the anguished cry of tomorrow's prize-winning Flamenco singer, Glass's plays disengage, disencumber, debride, devour and deflower even while they detonate on the Senecan tongue in the midst of intoning. They scale their own Everests, plant their own flags, and play Stanley to the Livingstone of our burgeoning post-post-post-post-modernity. LINK? New Fiction from New Issues Poetry & Prose TOADS' MUSEUM OF FREAKS AND WONDERS Goldie Goldbloom $26 | cloth | 321 pp. New Issues Poetry & Prose ISBN: 9781930974883 Fiction. WP Award Series in the Novel. In the wake of a thwarted career as a concert pianist and the accompanying emotional fallout, Gin accepts a marriage proposal from the peculiar Mr. Toad. But nothing from the albino Gin Toad's upbringing in the bourgeois drawing rooms of Perth has prepared her for a hardscrabble existence on a subsistence farm in the Australian outback. In her Wyalkatchem exile, she explores what it means to be a mother and wife, an underappreciated musician, and the town freak. She walks on eggshells to accommodate the cantankerous Toad and comes to accept her life without independence, music, or love until Antonio arrives. The Italian POWs forced into the Toads' service change the landscape of Gin's world. She is haunted by the memory of her first child's death; Antonio is exiled from a country and family he cherishes, banished to Western Australia while WWII threatens all he holds dear. In their mutual isolation and loss, the growing intimacy between Gin and Antonio becomes their escape from hardship but will it also be their undoing? LINK? New Poetry Anthology from Sixteen Rivers Press THE PLACE THAT INHABITS US: POEMS FROM THE SAN FRANCISCO BAY WATERSHED Sixteen Rivers Press, Editors $20 | paper | 160 pp. Sixteen Rivers Press ISBN: 9780981981611 Poetry. California Studies. Foreword by Robert Hass. The poems in this anthology embody what it's like to live in the astonishing weave of cities and towns, landscape and language, climate and history that make up the greater San Francisco Bay Area. Selected by the members of Sixteen Rivers Press, a regional poetry collective named after the web of rivers that flow into San Francisco Bay, the poems in THE PLACE THAT INHABITS US are drawn from both a physical and a metaphoric watershed. From the granite slopes of the Sierra to the Delta, through the Coastal Range to the bay and shores of the Pacific, one hundred poems by poets well known and not well known, living and dead, map this improbable region. There are egrets and grievous losses here; prayers, panhandlers,Delta mornings and sunsets in the 'hood; the fog, certainly, and the bridges, but there are shades of Dante on a Miwok trail, and Wang-wei haunts the slopes of Grizzly Peak. These poems are internal maps, "the mental maps that for humans," writes Robert Hass in the foreword, "make a place a place." Gathered together, they evoke the San Francisco Bay watershed, the place that inhabits us. LINK? New Poetry from Factory School THE CITY REAL & IMAGINED CAConrad and Frank Sherlock $15 | paper | 100 pp. Factory School ISBN: 9781600010736 Poetry. Wander with CAConrad and Frank Sherlock through this psychogeographical poem. Experience peoples' histories and magical traditions rooted in the first capital of the American possible?the city of Philadelphia. Visit landmarks that remain standing, revisit citizens that live on in memory, and participate in the future mappings of your city yet to be realized?the city real and imagined. LINK? New Poetry from Silverfish Review Press BEST WESTERN AND OTHER POEMS Eric Gudas $14.95 | paper | 80 pp. Silverfish Review Press ISBN: 9781878851574 Poetry. "Like a wine crafted by sturdy Franciscan monks in southern France, bottled by a crack team of Swiss psychotherapists, and kept in a temperature-controlled vault in the sub-cellar, Eric Gudas has been one of my secret favorite poets for a long time. This careful, rich collection makes his playful, anguished, perceptive, and humane poems available at last. BEST WESTERN AND OTHER POEMS is a fine varietal?with hints of cello, playground, and boudoir. This book is full of terrific, distinctive poems, and you will love it. It's that simple"?Tony Hoagland. LINK? New Poetry from Copper Canyon Press SANCTIFICUM Chris Abani $15 | paper | 96 pp. Copper Canyon Press ISBN: 9781556593161 Poetry. African American Studies. SANCTIFICUM, Abani's fifth collection of poetry, is his most personal and ambitious book. Utilizing religious ritual, the Nigerian Igbo language, and reggae rhythms, Abani creates a post-racial, liturgical love song that covers the globe from Abuja to Los Angeles. A self-described "zealot of optimism," poet and novelist Chris Abani bravely travels into the charged intersections of atrocity and love, politics and religion, loss and renewal. In poems of devastating beauty, he investigates complex personal history, family, and romantic love. LINK? New Poetry from epic rites press CRUDELY MISTAKEN FOR LIFE Wolfgang Carstens $15.50 | paper | 98 pp. epic rites press ISBN: 9780981184463 Poetry. "Wolfgang Carstens debuts here with a rock solid collection of poems where you can sense the presence of the viscera under the blood-coated muscle that is the text. And yet the poems are surprisingly gentle and nostalgic sometimes, sometimes angry, sometimes philosophical, sometimes funny. Not so much a traditional anthology of poems as a manifesto and statement of intent combined with a dissertation on life and the sort of things that are deserving in it, love, loyalty, and the forgotten child inside. Poems to read in all seasons, but especially when winter storms howl outside"?David McLean. LINK? New Film Studies from Seoul Selection KOREAN FILM DIRECTORS: BONG JOON-HO Jung Ji-youn $24 | paper | 224 pp. Seoul Selection ISBN: 9788991913530 Film Studies. Asian Studies. This book is the result of efforts to reach a deeper and broader understanding of the director Bong Joon-ho, who has been the subject of a great deal of popular interest and attention in Korean society in spite of his relatively short filmography of three feature films. After the experience of Barking Dogs Never Bite, it appears that the director clearly came to understand what he had to do to relate the story he wanted to tell in the way most suited to the public, yet most in line with his own cinephile impulses. Memories of Murder and The Host were both major box office successes in Korean film, but at the same time, they were films that looked upon the wounds and failures of modern Korean history in the most perceptive and challenging ways. As a result, Bong Joon-ho became almost unique in present-day Korean film in his ability to break away from commercial and creative pressures and realize the kind of films he wants to, when he wants to. LINK? New Poetry Anthology from Bottom Dog Press BOTTOM DOG PRESS POETRY ANTHOLOGY: 25TH ANNIVERSARY Laura Smith, Allen Frost, and Larry Smith, Editors $16 | paper | 156 pp. Bottom Dog Press ISBN: 9781933964348 Poetry. This anthology of 25 years of poetry publications from Bottom Dog Press includes work by the following poets: David Adams, Laura Treacy Bentley, Roy Bentley, Jeanne Bryner, Jennifer Burd, Imogene Bolls, David Canalos, Michael Cole, d. steven conkle, Jim Daniels, Todd Davis, Robert DeMott, Robert Flanagan, Allen Frost, Chris Green, Jeff Gundy, Richard Hague, Denish Hassan, Terry Hermsen, Meredith Holmes, Brooke Horvath, Marci Janas, Milton Jordan, Diane Kendig, David Kherdian, Ron Kittell, Kip Knott, Tom (T.L.) Kryss Naton Leslie, d.a.levy, Chris Llewellyn, Joanne Lowery, Ray McNiece, Herbert Woodward Martin, Ken Meisel, Richard E. Messer, Don Moyer, George Myers Jr., Joe Napora, Kenneth Patchen, Edwina (Eddy) Pendarvis, Maj Ragain, Gloria Regalbuto, Jerry Roscoe, Timothy Russell, Karen St. John-Vincent, Philip St. Clair, Russell Salamon, Michael Salinger, David Shevin, Daniel Smith, Larry Smith, Rob Smith, Merry Speece, Deborah Ellen Stokes, Robert Tener, Daniel Thompson, Alberta T. Turner, John A. Vanek, John Volkmer, Michael E. Waldecki, Mary E. Weems, Loren Weiss, Mary Ann Wehler, and William C. Wright. LINK? New Poetry from Hanging Loose Press TOURIST AT A MIRACLE Mark Statman $18 | paper | 88 pp. Hanging Loose Press ISBN: 9781934909164 Poetry. "It's very rare to watch the birth of a new style. It's like watching through a new set of Proust's kaleidoscopes. Mark Statman has been working for years on a vision of himself and parts of the city concentrated and bare as any poetry. It's hard to compare it to anything except a commentary on the real and the imagined pointillist poems almost without figures and adjectives and false decorations. But it all adds up, like a fire hydrant taken by Rudy Burkhardt, because everything is unexaggerated, convincing as a street sign. He has gotten away from any lyric leftovers, and in his anti-anti-poems he makes a lot of magic and music out of elegies of a city mouse. He has a family, a loved wife, and son, and a past he has a constant politics and is not seduced by the political. He makes us bewildered tourists at his everyday miracle"?David Shapiro. LINK? FROM THE VAULT! ALL THIS EVERY DAY Joanne Kyger $4 | paper | 92 pp. Big Sky ISBN: 9780929844046 LAST COPIES! Poetry. Published in an edition of 1500 copies in 1975 by Big Sky in Bolina, California, ALL THIS EVERY DAY includes one of Kyger's most familiar poems, "September." LINK? If you do not want to receive any more emails, click this link. To update your preferences and to unsubscribe, visit this link. Spread the word! Forward this message to a friend by clicking this link. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/png Size: 2408 bytes Desc: not available URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Mar 12 22:07:10 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 12 Mar 2010 22:07:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 In-Reply-To: <8CC906FE5F6A2BF-4FC4-6A8B@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC906FE5F6A2BF-4FC4-6A8B@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC90716813B30F-4FC4-6C56@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> The blurb is my b?te noire, I'll admit. But this is one of those blurbs that gives blurbs a bad name... "This is an immense book, one in which Notley takes language, as she has it, 'from hearsay to heresy' by the speed and awe of an unwavering attention to the seams, seems and semes of words and sentences. This is the work of an iconoclast, a semioclast, where semantics become seme-antics, and the byz-antics and -antiques from Christianity to Christine are molten down & recast into 21st Century mental shapes in the red-hot heart-red retort of a present day alchemist of mind. Alice Notley has the uncanny ability to go from the everyday mundane to the psycho-cosmic in one warp-speed stutter or typo-graphical stumble, at what Andr? Breton called 'la vitesse grand V.' This is writing of the highest order"?Pierre Joris. LINK? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Mar 13 03:31:00 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 09:31:00 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 In-Reply-To: <8CC90716813B30F-4FC4-6C56@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC906FE5F6A2BF-4FC4-6A8B@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> <8CC90716813B30F-4FC4-6C56@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003130031x107bf0eap2c94682440309d73@mail.gmail.com> I know you will not believe it, but I _like_ it! I find it so decadently baroque that it is superb. On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 4:07 AM, wrote: > The blurb is my b?te noire, I'll admit. But this is one of those blurbs > that gives blurbs a bad name... > > "This is an immense book, one in which Notley takes language, as she has > it, 'from hearsay to heresy' by the speed and awe of an unwavering attention > to the seams, seems and semes of words and sentences. This is the work of an > iconoclast, a semioclast, where semantics become seme-antics, and the > byz-antics and -antiques from Christianity to Christine are molten down & > recast into 21st Century mental shapes in the red-hot heart-red retort of a > present day alchemist of mind. Alice Notley has the uncanny ability to go > from the everyday mundane to the psycho-cosmic in one warp-speed stutter or > typo-graphical stumble, at what Andr? Breton called '*la vitesse grand V*.' > This is writing of the highest order"?Pierre Joris. LINK? > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Mar 13 03:34:32 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 09:34:32 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] some tooting Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003130034m3ff8b6fdp7d5464992cb3dc0d@mail.gmail.com> http://netpoetic.com/ag3art/gallery/ One of my longish works is featured in the Gallery. I would love to receive some feedback / anny.ballardini at gmail.com there is a shortcut: http://www.webalice.it/anny.ballardini/Immortality/Archtecture%20Anny%20Ballardini.html but do go the long way round, plenty of goodies. -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Mar 13 06:39:32 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 06:39:32 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71003130031x107bf0eap2c94682440309d73@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CC906FE5F6A2BF-4FC4-6A8B@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com><8CC90716813B30F-4FC4-6C56@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d71003130031x107bf0eap2c94682440309d73@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B9B7974.4070301@nut-n-but.net> Anny Ballardini wrote: > I know you will not believe it, but I _like_ it! I find it so > decadently baroque that it is superb. Yes, but it's pure gush. Which makes me surprised James didn't go for it. --Bob From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Mar 13 06:37:22 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 12:37:22 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 In-Reply-To: <4B9B7974.4070301@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CC906FE5F6A2BF-4FC4-6A8B@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> <8CC90716813B30F-4FC4-6C56@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d71003130031x107bf0eap2c94682440309d73@mail.gmail.com> <4B9B7974.4070301@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003130337g124bcfd6m922c95a50db7d083@mail.gmail.com> Are you already up, Bob? Good morning! The very first warm (well, still March in the Alps) and sunny here... a pity to have to work! On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 12:39 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Anny Ballardini wrote: > >> I know you will not believe it, but I _like_ it! I find it so decadently >> baroque that it is superb. >> > Yes, but it's pure gush. Which makes me surprised James didn't go for it. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Mar 13 06:42:00 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 11:42:00 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 In-Reply-To: <4B9B7974.4070301@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CC906FE5F6A2BF-4FC4-6A8B@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com><8CC90716813B30F-4FC4-6C56@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com><4b65c2d71003130031x107bf0eap2c94682440309d73@mail.gmail.com> <4B9B7974.4070301@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <9322D0E4100A491E8E538D3B64713777@RobinLaptopPC> > Anny Ballardini wrote: >> I know you will not believe it, but I _like_ it! I find it so decadently >> baroque that it is superb. > Yes, but it's pure gush. Which makes me surprised James didn't go for it. > > --Bob No it's not -- it actually specifies something about the poems it talks about (that they are orthographic/semantic texts). Thought you might go for that, Bob. (I was almost tempted to buy a copy.) Gush, sure, but you have to gush a bit in a blurb -- and look who it was signed by. It's always worth checking the signatures of blurbs to see if just possibly, when you cut through the inevitable noise, they might have been written by someone whose judgment is worth considering. Robin From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Mar 13 07:20:36 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 07:20:36 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 In-Reply-To: <9322D0E4100A491E8E538D3B64713777@RobinLaptopPC> References: <8CC906FE5F6A2BF-4FC4-6A8B@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com><8CC90716813B30F-4FC4-6C56@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com><4b65c2 d71003130031x107bf0eap2c94682440309d73@mail.gmail.com><4B9B7974.4070301@nut-n-but.net> <9322D0E4100A491E8E538D3B64713777@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4B9B8314.6090101@nut-n-but.net> Robin Hamilton wrote: >> Anny Ballardini wrote: >>> I know you will not believe it, but I _like_ it! I find it so >>> decadently baroque that it is superb. >> Yes, but it's pure gush. Which makes me surprised James didn't go >> for it. >> >> --Bob > > No it's not -- it actually specifies something about the poems it > talks about (that they are orthographic/semantic texts). Thought you > might go for that, Bob. (I was almost tempted to buy a copy.) You're right, Robin, not /pure/ gush, just close to it. > > Gush, sure, but you have to gush a bit in a blurb -- and look who it > was signed by. > > It's always worth checking the signatures of blurbs to see if just > possibly, when you cut through the inevitable noise, they might have > been written by someone whose judgment is worth considering. Okay, but when I blurb, I try to do more, even cite a poem or part of a poem, to help a reader. Assuming I'm give more than a ten-word limit, as has happened. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Mar 13 07:25:36 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 13:25:36 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 In-Reply-To: <4B9B8314.6090101@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CC906FE5F6A2BF-4FC4-6A8B@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> <8CC90716813B30F-4FC4-6C56@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> <4B9B7974.4070301@nut-n-but.net> <9322D0E4100A491E8E538D3B64713777@RobinLaptopPC> <4B9B8314.6090101@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003130425r78864af8p4078ad6be18bd1b6@mail.gmail.com> I already ordered the book some two months ago. I haven't received it yet, it will be here one of these days now. On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 1:20 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Robin Hamilton wrote: > > Anny Ballardini wrote: > > I know you will not believe it, but I _like_ it! I find it so decadently > baroque that it is superb. > > Yes, but it's pure gush. Which makes me surprised James didn't go for it. > > --Bob > > > No it's not -- it actually specifies something about the poems it talks > about (that they are orthographic/semantic texts). Thought you might go for > that, Bob. (I was almost tempted to buy a copy.) > > You're right, Robin, not *pure* gush, just close to it. > > > > Gush, sure, but you have to gush a bit in a blurb -- and look who it was > signed by. > > It's always worth checking the signatures of blurbs to see if just > possibly, when you cut through the inevitable noise, they might have been > written by someone whose judgment is worth considering. > > Okay, but when I blurb, I try to do more, even cite a poem or part of a > poem, to help a reader. Assuming I'm give more than a ten-word limit, as > has happened. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Mar 13 07:31:52 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 12:31:52 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 In-Reply-To: <4B9B8314.6090101@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CC906FE5F6A2BF-4FC4-6A8B@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com><8CC90716813B30F-4FC4-6C56@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com><4b65c2d71003130031x107bf0eap2c94682440309d73@mail.gmail.com><4B9B7974.4070301@nut-n-but.net><9322D0E4100A491E8E538D3B64713777@RobinLaptopPC> <4B9B8314.6090101@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: << Okay, but when I blurb, I try to do more, even cite a poem or part of a poem, to help a reader. Assuming I'm give more than a ten-word limit, as has happened. --Bob >> K, fair, and I'd have liked a direct quote or two myself. Maybe if there'd been even one direct quote, I'd have pushed my interest further. Tom Leonard followed up his blurb on nick-e melville (where I *did buy a copy, and worth every penny -- sorry, cent -- I spent on it -- laughed till I nearly ruptured myself) with a longer entry on his blog (which I only read *after I bought the book on the back of Tom's [and Geoff Huth's] blurb), so there may be a follow-up in the link given to PJ's blogsite. (I presume that's where the (hyper)link lead.) Dunno. When it came down to it, I had too much on my mind [trying to read a bare transcript of of Dekker's _Westward Ho_] to chase the link, and the book finally sounded more your scene than mine. The life so short, the art so long to learn ... Robin From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sat Mar 13 07:37:14 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 12:37:14 -0000 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71003130425r78864af8p4078ad6be18bd1b6@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CC906FE5F6A2BF-4FC4-6A8B@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com><8CC90716813B30F-4FC4-6C56@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com><4B9B7974.4070301@nut-n-but.net><9322D0E4100A491E8E538D3B64713777@RobinLaptopPC><4B9B8314.6090101@nut-n-but.net> <4b65c2d71003130425r78864af8p4078ad6be18bd1b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Let us know what you think of it when you finally get it, Anny. One more concurring judgement might push me into buying it! Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 12:25 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 I already ordered the book some two months ago. I haven't received it yet, it will be here one of these days now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Sat Mar 13 08:35:05 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 08:35:05 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71003130337g124bcfd6m922c95a50db7d083@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CC906FE5F6A2BF-4FC4-6A8B@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com><8CC90716813B30F-4FC4-6C56@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com><4b65c2 d71003130031x107bf0eap2c94682440309d73@mail.gmail.com><4B9B7974.4070301@nut-n-but.net> <4b65c2d71003130337g124bcfd6m922c95a50db7d083@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B9B9489.3090809@nut-n-but.net> Anny Ballardini wrote: > Are you already up, Bob? Good morning! The very first warm (well, > still March in the Alps) and sunny here... a pity to have to work! I'm always up by 6 AM, never want to be but can't get back to sleep. We've continued to have weather that's cold for this time of year in Florida, but today seems to be starting out sunny. all best, Bob--who may soon be away for a week or more, out of town and away from a computer. From jforjames at aol.com Sat Mar 13 09:50:42 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 09:50:42 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71003130031x107bf0eap2c94682440309d73@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CC906FE5F6A2BF-4FC4-6A8B@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com><8CC90716813B30F-4FC4-6C56@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d71003130031x107bf0eap2c94682440309d73@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CC90D3B01C5681-2470-CFEB@webmail-m012.sysops.aol.com> I'm sure Pierre Joris' judgement is just fine. But, unlike Robin, I don't think of blurbs as being matters of judgement. They are hypepoetics or 'hyperbollocks' to carry on the theme of wordplay so much in evidence in this blurb. I've perfected a warp-speed strut but I'm still working on my 'warp-speed stutter'. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Sat, Mar 13, 2010 3:31 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 I know you will not believe it, but I _like_ it! I find it so decadently baroque that it is superb. On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 4:07 AM, wrote: The blurb is my b?te noire, I'll admit. But this is one of those blurbs that gives blurbs a bad name... "This is an immense book, one in which Notley takes language, as she has it, 'from hearsay to heresy' by the speed and awe of an unwavering attention to the seams, seems and semes of words and sentences. This is the work of an iconoclast, a semioclast, where semantics become seme-antics, and the byz-antics and -antiques from Christianity to Christine are molten down & recast into 21st Century mental shapes in the red-hot heart-red retort of a present day alchemist of mind. Alice Notley has the uncanny ability to go from the everyday mundane to the psycho-cosmic in one warp-speed stutter or typo-graphical stumble, at what Andr? Breton called 'la vitesse grand V.' This is writing of the highest order"?Pierre Joris. LINK? _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Mar 13 12:57:03 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 12:57:03 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 In-Reply-To: <8CC90D3B01C5681-2470-CFEB@webmail-m012.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC906FE5F6A2BF-4FC4-6A8B@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com><8CC90716813B30F-4FC4-6C56@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com><4b65c2d71003130031x107bf0eap2c94682440309d73@mail.gmail.com> <8CC90D3B01C5681-2470-CFEB@webmail-m012.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC90EDB9026BD4-2470-F1D3@webmail-m012.sysops.aol.com> In my country, ?blue sky laws' against blurbing were passed, blurbs were abolished and publishers were required to print this message on the back covers of their books? "What are looking for back here: assurance, sponsorship, boosterism? Open the book and read." - Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Mar 13 13:03:11 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 13:03:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 In-Reply-To: <8CC90EDB9026BD4-2470-F1D3@webmail-m012.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC906FE5F6A2BF-4FC4-6A8B@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com><8CC90716813B30F-4FC4-6C56@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com><4b65c2d71003130031x107bf0eap2c94682440309d73@mail.gmail.com><8CC90D3B01C5681-2470-CFEB@webmail-m012.sysops.aol.com> <8CC90EDB9026BD4-2470-F1D3@webmail-m012.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC90EE93E255E7-2470-F308@webmail-m012.sysops.aol.com> Correction and addition: In my country, ?blue sky laws' against blurbing were passed, blurbs were abolished and publishers were required to print this message on the back covers of their books? "What are you looking for back here: assurance, sponsorship, boosterism? Open the book and read." - Tout, n. 1. Chiefly British One who obtains information on racehorses and their prospects and sells it to bettors. 2. One who solicits customers brazenly or persistently. Synonym: blurber. -- -----Original Message----- From: jforjames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sat, Mar 13, 2010 12:57 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 In my country, ?blue sky laws' against blurbing were passed, blurbs were abolished and publishers were required to print this message on the back covers of their books? "What are looking for back here: assurance, sponsorship, boosterism? Open the book and read." - Finnegan _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Mar 13 15:06:22 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 21:06:22 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Webopedia Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003131206s3125cb7dud3d7472dc2ebee44@mail.gmail.com> I haven't used it in such a long time, and it is still there: http://www.webopedia.com/ -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From eposamentier at yahoo.com Sat Mar 13 16:35:22 2010 From: eposamentier at yahoo.com (Evelyn Posamentier) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 13:35:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: [New-Poetry] Very OT: Californians for Education Funding (much apologies for cross-posting) Message-ID: <801835.27695.qm@web31807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> A message from a daily lurker: I'm writing to tell you that all California schools (K - Nobel folk) succeded in our March 4 Day of Action rally throughout the state (and a number nationally, as well) to support our demand for proper educational funding. Thousands of us statewide participated in Walkouts and Rallies. While considerable media coverage was of small highway sitins, most of us attended and conducted rallies at our various sites. The next major California action takes place on March 22. Buses from all over the state will be converging in Sacramento, our state capitol, and then marching to Mr. Schwarzenegger's door. I'm asking you all to keep us in your thoughts that day. (You might say that this is Poetry in Motion!) Thanks for listening! Lurkers Anonymous p.s By way of introduction, google me to see some of my work -- From jforjames at aol.com Sat Mar 13 18:47:14 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 13 Mar 2010 18:47:14 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] April is Poetry Month In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CC911EA4499F0F-4634-12870@webmail-m060.sysops.aol.com> We make a dwelling in the evening air, In which being there together is enough. ?Wallace Stevens, from "Final Soliloquy of the Interior Paramour." The Academy of American Poets (www.poets.org) features this Stevens quote on their 2010 Poetry Month poster. Members are sent one free, but anyone can request a poster here... http://www.poets.org/page.php/prmID/98 Finnegan -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Mar 14 04:14:35 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 09:14:35 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] April is Poetry Month In-Reply-To: <8CC911EA4499F0F-4634-12870@webmail-m060.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC911EA4499F0F-4634-12870@webmail-m060.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003140014u2855ada9mb5d2f2c94df400d4@mail.gmail.com> Wonderful all, quotation, design, everything. On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 12:47 AM, wrote: > We make a dwelling in the evening air, > In which being there together is enough. > > ?Wallace Stevens, from "Final Soliloquy of the Interior Paramour." > > > The Academy of American Poets (www.poets.org) features this Stevens quote > on their 2010 Poetry Month poster. > > Members are sent one free, but anyone can request a poster here... > http://www.poets.org/page.php/prmID/98 > > Finnegan > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Mar 14 12:01:11 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 12:01:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Armantrout wins 2009 Nat'l Book Critics Circle Award Message-ID: <8CC91A6B3761F2A-2E4C-6CFE@webmail-d024.sysops.aol.com> http://www.articleant.com/gen/48945-faculty-poet-honored-for-new-collection.html University of California, San Diego poet Rae Armantrout has won the 2009 award from the National Book Critics Circle for "Versed" (Wesleyan University Press). The awards were announced March 11 at the New School's Tishman Auditorium in New York. Armantrout's 10th collection of poems, "Versed" was cited by the NBCC "for its demonstration of superb intellect and technique, its melding of experimental poetics but down-to-earth subject matter to create poems you are compelled to return to, that get richer with each reading." "Versed" also was selected as a finalist for the 2009 National Book Award. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Mar 14 12:08:22 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 17:08:22 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] a mathematical day Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003140908g43935bb3q6f91e0e29a5cd5a5@mail.gmail.com> from the Writer's Almanac Today is *Albert Einstein's * (books by this author) birthday. He was born in Ulm, Germany (1879), and his pre-kindergarten fascination with a compass needle left an impression on him that lasted a lifetime. He liked math but hated school, dropped out, and taught himself calculus in the meantime. Einstein worked for the Swiss Patent Office in Bern, where his job was to evaluate patent applications for electromagnetic devices and determine whether the inventions described would actually work. The job wasn't particularly demanding, and at night he would come home and pursue scientific investigations and theories. In 1905, he wrote a paper on the Special Theory of Relativity, which is that if the speed of light is constant and if all natural laws are the same in every frame of reference, then both time and motion are relative to the observer. That same year, he published three more papers, each of which was just as revolutionary as the first, among them the paper that included his most famous equation: *E* = *mc*2. E is energy, m is mass, and c stands for the velocity of light. Einstein received the Nobel Prize in physics in 1921. He said, "The pursuit of truth and beauty is a sphere of activity in which we are permitted to remain children all our lives." Today is *Pi Day *, in honor of the mathematical constant pi (?), an irrational number that begins 3.14 -- like today's date, March 14th or 3/14. ? is a letter of the Greek alphabet, and it's the symbol for the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter. In other words, if a circle has a diameter of 10 inches, we could find out its circumference by multiplying 10 inches by ?, and we'd find out that the circle with a 10-inch diameter has a circumference (or perimeter) of approximately 31.4159265. It can only ever be approximate -- never exact -- because ? is an irrational number, meaning that it goes on forever without repeating or having patterns. Using powerful computers, ? has been calculated in recent years into trillions of decimal places. Pi Day began in 1988, started by a physicist named Larry Shaw. And just last year, in 2009, the U.S. House of Representatives passed a non-binding resolution designating today as National Pi Day. Pi Day celebrations around the nation today involve eating dessert pies or pizza pies, throwing cream pies, and listening to lectures on the importance of the irrational number -- sometimes all of these things occurring in unison. There are legions of people worldwide devoted to memorizing ? to as far as they can memorize it. And today around the world, there are ? recitation contests. The world record, according to the Guinness Book, is currently held by Lu Chao, a grad student from China, who over the course of 24 hours and 4 minutes recited pi to the 67,890th decimal place without error. To aid in the memorization of the never-ending, pattern-less number, people have written poetry and stories in a mnemonic called "Pilish," which is a way of constrained writing "in which the number of letters in each successive word "spells out" the digits of ?." One of the earliest and best-known examples of it was a sentence by English physicist Sir James Jeans, who wrote: "How I need a drink, alcoholic in nature, after the heavy lectures involving quantum mechanics!" 'How' has three letters, 'I' has one, "need" has four -- so it forms 3.14, the start of ? -- and each successive word's letter count represents the next digit in ?. Then, in 1996, a piphilologist (as these people are called), wrote a 3,834-digit *Cadaeic Cadenza*, which begins with a retelling of Edgar Allan Poe's "The Raven"; every single word adheres to the constraints that render letter counts into accurate successive ? digits. -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche << Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae >> Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sun Mar 14 12:29:33 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 12:29:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Armantrout wins 2009 Nat'l Book Critics Circle Award In-Reply-To: <8CC91A6B3761F2A-2E4C-6CFE@webmail-d024.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC91A6B3761F2A-2E4C-6CFE@webmail-d024.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Wonderful! At 12:01 PM 3/14/2010, you wrote: >http://www.articleant.com/gen/48945-faculty-poet-honored-for-new-collection.html > >University of California, San Diego poet Rae Armantrout has won the >2009 award from the National Book Critics Circle for "Versed" >(Wesleyan University Press). The awards were announced March 11 at >the New School's Tishman Auditorium in New York. > >Armantrout's 10th collection of poems, "Versed" was cited by the >NBCC "for its demonstration of superb intellect and technique, its >melding of experimental poetics but down-to-earth subject matter to >create poems you are compelled to return to, that get richer with >each reading." > >"Versed" also was selected as a finalist for the 2009 National Book Award. > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Mar 14 12:09:39 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 17:09:39 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Armantrout wins 2009 Nat'l Book Critics Circle Award In-Reply-To: <8CC91A6B3761F2A-2E4C-6CFE@webmail-d024.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC91A6B3761F2A-2E4C-6CFE@webmail-d024.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003140909g7391bbc5n796748fa6470737e@mail.gmail.com> Ach! and I thought I would get it! Armantrout is anyhow a favorite, congratulations to her! On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 5:01 PM, wrote: > > http://www.articleant.com/gen/48945-faculty-poet-honored-for-new-collection.html > > University of California, San Diego poet Rae Armantrout has won the 2009 > award from the National Book Critics Circle for "Versed" (Wesleyan > University Press). The awards were announced March 11 at the New School's > Tishman Auditorium in New York. > > Armantrout's 10th collection of poems, "Versed" was cited by the NBCC "for > its demonstration of superb intellect and technique, its melding of > experimental poetics but down-to-earth subject matter to create poems you > are compelled to return to, that get richer with each reading." > > "Versed" also was selected as a finalist for the 2009 National Book Award. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.weinstock at gmail.com Sun Mar 14 12:45:38 2010 From: david.weinstock at gmail.com (David Weinstock) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 12:45:38 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] a mathematical day In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71003140908g43935bb3q6f91e0e29a5cd5a5@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d71003140908g43935bb3q6f91e0e29a5cd5a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <437b1e3a1003140945l69b0fc80l4e1fcf7c69ba586e@mail.gmail.com> In 4th grade in a little country school in New Jersey, a friend and I challenged each other to memorize pi. I reached about 70 digits; he went on to 100. Both efforts far exceed any conceivable practical use for the ratio -- one could calculate the volume of the entire universe without needing that precise a value of pi and not be wrong by half a cubic inch. My friend is now a professor of physics, and I'm not, but I can still rattle off the digits to about two dozen places. Happy Pi Day! David 3/14/10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Mar 14 12:48:39 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 12:48:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] caves of Lascaux Message-ID: <8CC91AD55509C1C-2E4C-73A9@webmail-d024.sysops.aol.com> http://www.lascaux.culture.fr/#/fr/00.xml You might enjoy this site. I understand the paintings are threatened by a creeping mold of some sort. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Sun Mar 14 13:06:18 2010 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 13:06:18 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] caves of Lascaux In-Reply-To: <8CC91AD55509C1C-2E4C-73A9@webmail-d024.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC91AD55509C1C-2E4C-73A9@webmail-d024.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b1003141006q54edeffdq57f8b089ec91c094@mail.gmail.com> What a glorious excursion, Jim! Thank you so much for sending the URL for this magnificent tour; I'll be forwarding it to family and friends. BTW, in the last panel, "Panneau de l'homme blesse", it looked as if there were PRINTING just above the animal. Wow. Best, Judy On 14 March 2010 12:48, wrote: > http://www.lascaux.culture.fr/#/fr/00.xml > > You might enjoy this site. I understand the paintings are threatened by a > creeping mold of some sort. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ "Southern hospitality has ten years left." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Mar 14 13:19:52 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 18:19:52 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] a mathematical day In-Reply-To: <437b1e3a1003140945l69b0fc80l4e1fcf7c69ba586e@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d71003140908g43935bb3q6f91e0e29a5cd5a5@mail.gmail.com> <437b1e3a1003140945l69b0fc80l4e1fcf7c69ba586e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003141019y782074fby6e304b027682c6fc@mail.gmail.com> Happiest, and congratulations! On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 5:45 PM, David Weinstock wrote: > In 4th grade in a little country school in New Jersey, a friend and I > challenged each other to memorize pi. I reached about 70 digits; he went on > to 100. Both efforts far exceed any conceivable practical use for the ratio > -- one could calculate the volume of the entire universe without needing > that precise a value of pi and not be wrong by half a cubic inch. > > My friend is now a professor of physics, and I'm not, but I can still > rattle off the digits to about two dozen places. > > Happy Pi Day! > > David 3/14/10 > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu Sun Mar 14 13:34:09 2010 From: rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu (Richard Wilsnack) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 12:34:09 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] caves of Lascaux In-Reply-To: <8CC91AD55509C1C-2E4C-73A9@webmail-d024.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC91AD55509C1C-2E4C-73A9@webmail-d024.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B9D1E11.7090307@medicine.nodak.edu> jforjames at aol.com wrote: > http://www.lascaux.culture.fr/#/fr/00.xml > > You might enjoy this site. I understand the paintings are threatened > by a creeping mold of some sort. The story that I have been told is that too many visits by too many people have introduced too much moisture into the formerly dry atmosphere of the cave, enabling fungi to grow on the walls. The solution may have to be greatly restricted visits to the site. So those of us who don't get to go will have to enjoy images such as you have provided. Richard W. Wilsnack rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Mar 14 22:18:38 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 14 Mar 2010 21:18:38 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Observing Pi on a mathematical day In-Reply-To: <437b1e3a1003140945l69b0fc80l4e1fcf7c69ba586e@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d71003140908g43935bb3q6f91e0e29a5cd5a5@mail.gmail.com> <437b1e3a1003140945l69b0fc80l4e1fcf7c69ba586e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8C9E0D9C-DAE4-45B2-94D5-3985B0B2C3D9@ripon.edu> Here's an older poem of mine--certainly the only one I've ever written on a mathematical theme. . . . As I recall, the poem was triggered by an article in the New Yorker about the construction of a supercomputer in an attempt to work out Pi to the most possible decimal points. Observing Pi Thousands of numerals scroll up the screen, instances of the inexplicable, and the room heats as if with strain, but it's just light bursting against the computer's dumb retina, the glow of absolute method unfolding absolutely--these random digits aimed in the general direction of God, the welcome end of all axioms. Any skull will circle to contemplate its own diameter, zeroing in closer, closer, but never arriving. Pi is some super-Alaska, peak upon nameless peak, far beyond all maps. Yet in every infinity some order occurs by accident. Snatches of Beethoven's Fifth, all my old phone numbers, the genetic code of cockroaches, stock market quotes from 2004-- all these and their negations exist in Pi, along with test scores and tax refunds. Staring at the luminous terminal I think: it's You again, isn't it, Ancient of Days? You always loved a riddle, a test, a bet, some cosmic tit-for-tat such as undid Job and the prodigal's brother. Though fewer today believe that You mean it in some old testament way --righteous locusts blacking the horizon-- You're so huge there's no way to tell true chance from Your maybe accidental truth. Yes, Nameless One, I'm talking to myself, as I might address a cold front or tide, a slim shiver of wind in the top branches, and if I'm faithful it is because I'll never know the next digit before it comes--and know that I will never know. Out of the pearly winter skies today come millions of skittish snowflakes, teased down by the transcendental wind. So I stand, head back-tilted, gazing far into that downrushing swarm. I am observing Pi, that much I will admit, and how my mind is perfectly chilled with it. --David Graham. Tampa Review 11 (Fall 1995) ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Mar 14, 2010, at 11:45 AM, David Weinstock wrote: > In 4th grade in a little country school in New Jersey, a friend and I challenged each other to memorize pi. I reached about 70 digits; he went on to 100. Both efforts far exceed any conceivable practical use for the ratio -- one could calculate the volume of the entire universe without needing that precise a value of pi and not be wrong by half a cubic inch. > > My friend is now a professor of physics, and I'm not, but I can still rattle off the digits to about two dozen places. > > Happy Pi Day! > > David 3/14/10 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Mar 15 02:14:57 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 07:14:57 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Announcing GALLOWGLASS by Susan Tichy! In-Reply-To: <5a884fa068-anny.ballardini=gmail.com@mail.vresp.com> References: <5a884fa068-anny.ballardini=gmail.com@mail.vresp.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003142314i6acdde7bvdc9adb0ddada6671@mail.gmail.com> Forward this message to a friend Click to view this email in a browser N O W A V A I L A B L E : Gallowglass by Susan Tichy [image: TichyCoverSlice.gif] *20% OFF* Receive a discount with this e-mail only! Buy Susan Tichy's Gallowglass at a discount by clicking here: ?In Irish history, *gallowglass* refers to mercenary soldiers. In Tichy?s expansive exploration of war and empire, we are all gallowglasses of sorts, for Americans? apparently peaceful lives are intermeshed with wars around the globe. Tichy?s style is that of the montage, bringing together apparently disparate moments ranging from personal experience to ancient history to biblical or mythic incidents. When effective, it is both dazzling and jarring: ?Look up mural in the dictionary, and you wind up at immure. / Malaria drug caused panic attacks, but only after exposure to a dead Iraqi soldier . . . It?s a simple truth: a helicopter choked by sand is not a combat casualty. / On the grand staircase, a wedding party posed for enough photographs to start a museum.? This is a challenging book. Tichy, by never turning her face from the horrors of war, demands that the reader confront complicity?an uncomfortable proposition. *A tour-de-force of political but highly personal poetry.*? ?Patricia Monaghan in *Booklist* ------------------------------ *Poem* *From Gallowglass: Readable Means* *for Clea Koff* Fish vertebrae imbedded in sand Tarmac compressed by the weight of tanks Perfectly readable, yes, though you can?t lift it Find the fingernails of this one Scattered loose on the clothing of that one ?If you clear vegetation wherever you find human bones You will make a desert? ? Skeleton found on top of a coffin Illuminator?s puzzle book Made for one who already knows it by heart What can you use? A root means fit together, and a root means arm ? A shark tail with its whole spine I pick it up but can?t explain it Packed so tightly into a church When they died they did not fall down Fingers, house keys, clothing, hair Two or three hundred excited gulls In the air above some trees ?My dream about the man who woke up? ?Machete cuts in the doors? Copyright ? 2010 by Susan Tichy ------------------------------ *Gallowglass* Tichy is a poet embedded: with U.S. troops in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, twined together through history; in the landscape disrupted by war, perseverating on a deer killed by a mountain lion, or hearing direction in birdsong; and in the language of war??gallowglass? is a corruption of a Gaelic word for ?mercenary soldier,? and dark, ancient ballads appear like forensic evidence. Surrounded by cultural touchstones from Pythagoras to the Grateful Dead, Tichy refuses to let the reader?s gaze, or her own, turn from the violence of modern living. ------------------------------ *Praise for the book: * ?Unsettling both our comfort and our aesthetic expectations, Tichy superimposes Iraq and Afghanistan on Vietnam, birdsong and ballad and art on recent history. It is difficult to think of another poet who uses experimentation to such fine and expansive purpose.? *?Martha Collins* ?These are poems of startling intimacy, poems whose courage is not in girding courage together, but in loosening it, opening it, showing how the personal is no refuge, but is instead the very place in which history and self converge into a complicated and complicit consciousness . . . it is birdsong and bullet simultaneous.??*Dan Beachy-Quick* ------------------------------ [image: TichyCover-sm.jpg] Take advantage of this one-time-only offer! Susan Tichy?s Gallowglass at a 20% discount, only through this e-mail Susan Tichy?s Author Statement *Gallowglass* is a book about grief, both public and private; it asks *how*to grieve in a history and a culture so permeated with images of imperialism and war. I wrote these poems under the profound influence of Scottish traditional songs and ballads, which cast their resistance to war in the form of lament?for the dead, the maimed, the recruited, and the left behind?and whose multiple versions, moveable verses, and shifting speakers prefigure the rich, communal aspects of collage. ?Gallowglass? is an Anglicized form of the Gaelic* gal-**?glac* (Irish: * gall?glaich*) a foreign soldier or mercenary. The sequence of ghazals from which the book takes its title tracks this figure in forms both linguistic and human: in the foreign combatants of Iraq and Afghanistan; in words and phrases misplaced, made ?foreign? through collage; and in the life and death of my husband, who returned to Vietnam thirty years after he fought there, and who also traveled, in his restless, post-war years, through all the desert countries our military currently occupies. ?American Ghazals,? I call them, because I wish to acknowledge the occupation of foreign soil, and because, let?s face it, they are to real ghazals what American cheese is to real cheese. I built the poems from the onslaught of media images and from my own memories?over-stimulated by my husband?s death and the new wars?but lightened the work, depersonalized it, with procedural rules for the inclusion and exclusion of images. Collage allows images to become a way of thinking, and in *Gallowglass*, part of my thinking is about images themselves. Are the immanence and autonomy we assign to poetic images distinguishable from the perpetual framing and reframing of mediated images? Both pass before us in an unending stream of transformation, blurring categories of time, place, and possession, wearing away, as Lao Tzu says, into completion. Is a Taoist reality of presentation commensurate with the phantasmagoria of representation that now passes for information? Can we live in that stream of images while resisting their imperialist claim of universal access to others? experience? I have tried in *Gallowglass* to model some possibilities. In collage every juncture can feel like conflict; but its gaps also let in the light: transformation, detachment, and the possibility of creative error. The transcendence offered is metonymic?social and communal, rather than metaphysical, the private embedded in the public. After the ghazals, the ?Crossed Roads? of section two occupy a less predictable formal landscape, overloaded with intersections and distances, because, as one reader said to me, ?War moves things around in weird ways.? Some of the images moved around have already been woven through the ghazals: tea, animals, birds and bird-song, mountain paths, news-talk, ballads, weapons, bodies and body parts, vehicles, buildings, pairs of opposites, pairs of complements, definitions, mistakes, substitutions, guitars. Encounter is key, as is ?checkpoint etiquette,? both military and supernatural; but so too is seeking?in the characters of a war photographer, a forensic anthropologist, a camp survivor recording birdsong, an assembler of broken artifacts, a song sparrow eating ?what the other birds kick down.? In the third section, ?Trebuchet?, that assembler of artifacts has her say. Inspired by and partially collaged from Rhonda Shearer?s forensic examination of Marcel Duchamp?s *Tr?buchet* series of readymade hat and coatracks, the poem investigates complex relationships among representation, readability, deception and self-deception. Duchamp announced his Readymades as unaltered *objects* of art, not *works* of art, created by selection and framing alone. On that claim rest generations of work making art as an act of perception, not a thing. But Duchamp was a trickster, and Shearer claims his photographs weren?t innocent. If he cut and pasted, made and remade, finally reframing them as representations of pure, found objects, what act of perception are we talking about? What faith? And how, now, would we know a real object if we saw one? My ?Trebuchet? sets out to investigate and to reconstruct a body, composed not from objects, but from representations of objects: the broken and photographed bodies of Abu Ghraib, framed (or constructed) as terrorists; the lost, broken, and yet still catalogued objects of Iraq?s looted museums, framed (and reconstructed) as treasures; the psyches of soldiers catalogued in a US Army manual of field psychology, (deconstructed) and framed as data. The assembler, of course, has ?only forged what is.? The book?s last transition is its most extreme, from the greatest distance to an absolute lack of distance. One reader of *Gallowglass* said the first three sections were constantly asking ?How do you look at the dead? How do you show them?? and the last section answered ?Like this.? In ?Book Land Night,? my husband?s death, half-told in the ghazals, returns as the overwhelming fact. In ?Gallowglass? and ?Crossed Roads,? personal images are used like any other material, separable from their contexts, so I am more instrument than source. In the three poems of ?Book Land Night? *all* images are personal, drawn from memory or from dream; yet they are not detached from the other poems. I know when I turned from these to the first of the ghazals I felt I was keeping all the same elements in play, merely displacing the personal from center stage to chorus. War, birds, body parts, tea, ?the rescue of dead men??all recur here. Most different, I suppose, is the setting of mountains?where we lived and where he died?though nowhere is the story fully told. What happened happened, but the action of collage makes it not so much a narrative as a way to live: not grief and then recovery, but a constantly recurring consciousness. *How to grieve*?moment by moment?and how, moment by moment, to let grief go. That sounds glib as I type it, but I typed very slowly in those days. [image: susanT1.gif] ?When I googled *The Quicksilver Times* I discovered that one of the staff members, whom I had dated for a while when I was 17, was later unmasked as a CIA spy, sent to the *QT* to uncover vast sums of Chinese money Nixon believed was funding the paper. (Alas, there was none.)??Susan Tichy Author Bio: I was born in Washington, D.C., and raised in Maryland?one foot in the empire and one in the greenwood. Our house was full of all things Scottish, so I knew traditional Scottish ballads from infancy. My sense of poetry is rooted in their idiosyncratic mix of elegant form and mortal stakes, as is my sense of poetry?s inherently political nature. Thanks to one bohemian aunt our house was also full of books, among them *The Golden Treasury of Poetry*, edited by Louis Untermeyer. This anthology (which I still have) was designed for children (big pages, lots of illustrations) but filled with real poems from Chaucer to the 1950s. There I first read Wordsworth, Keats, Byron, the Brownings, Dickinson, Whitman, John Clare, as well as Hopkins, Yeats, Eliot, cummings, Roethke, and Bishop. When I was fourteen, I discovered Dylan Thomas, and, like many young poets before and since, learned from him that language could be an addictive drug. Ginsberg and Ferlinghetti followed, but a bigger epiphany was Paul Carroll?s anthology, *The Young American Poets*, published when I was sixteen. These were poets only a few years older than I; their biographies informed me that a person could get a degree in writing poetry; and their poems said the inner and outer lives could actually meet somewhere in contemporary vernacular. A few of these poets were (like the great majority of ballad singers) female. In my teens, I was a small but active cog in the antiwar machinery in Washington, and my first poems were published in *The Quicksilver Times*, an underground newspaper, which I also sold on the street. I graduated from high school in 1970, and attended Macalester College in St. Paul. While a student, I helped to found one of St. Paul?s many communes, and soon left college to work in a community clinic and an inner city high school. I finished my BA in 1975, at Goddard College in Plainfield, VT, and my M.A. at the University of Colorado, Boulder, in 1979. In 1977 I spent four months picking fruit, painting fences, and herding cattle on an Israeli kibbutz on the Golan Heights, which became the focus of my first book, *The Hands in Exile.* This manuscript was chosen by Sandra MacPherson for inclusion in the National Poetry Series and was published by Random House. It also received a Eugene Kayden Award. The poet who most visibly influenced this book was Yehuda Amichai, but I was also paying close attention to Nazim Hikmet, Pablo Neruda, C?sar Vallejo, Adrienne Rich, James Wright, and Gary Snyder. All my early work was influenced by Snyder?s outdoor ethic, Zen humor, strong accentual rhythms, and dense sound. In the early 1980s, I married Michael O?Hanlon, a Vietnam combat veteran who was a Colorado native and a mountaineer. We designed and built a cabin in Rosita, a silver-mining ghost town in the southern Colorado Rockies, and lived there fulltime for six years, sans electricity, running water, or telephone? though we did have the world?s smallest Amnesty International group. In later years, we owned a bookstore in Westcliffe, the nearest town, and were board members for a local land trust working to protect open land from development. In 1985, when Michael was working on a semi-autobiographical novel set in the Philippines, we sold something or other to pay for plane tickets and spent a month in Tarlac Province, P.I., researching its political history and the human rights catastrophes of the 1970s. I subsequently learned that my great-great uncle had been military commander of Tarlac in the most brutal phase of the Philippine-American War, at the turn of the 20th century. Thus. . . [continue reading... ] ------------------------------ [image: ram_logo.gif] Ahsahta Press, 1910 University Drive?MS 1525, Boise, ID 83725 ------------------------------ If you no longer wish to receive these emails, please reply to this message with "Unsubscribe" in the subject line or simply click on the following link: Unsubscribe ------------------------------ Ahsahta Press Boise State University 1910 University Drive, MS 1525 Boise, ID 83725-1525 Read the VerticalResponse marketing policy. [image: Non-Profits Email Free with VerticalResponse!] -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Mar 15 09:07:11 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 14:07:11 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Observing Pi on a mathematical day In-Reply-To: <8C9E0D9C-DAE4-45B2-94D5-3985B0B2C3D9@ripon.edu> References: <4b65c2d71003140908g43935bb3q6f91e0e29a5cd5a5@mail.gmail.com> <437b1e3a1003140945l69b0fc80l4e1fcf7c69ba586e@mail.gmail.com> <8C9E0D9C-DAE4-45B2-94D5-3985B0B2C3D9@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003150607m425b308dmbb460a8c4d86aeb5@mail.gmail.com> Excellent. On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 3:18 AM, David Graham wrote: > Here's an older poem of mine--certainly the only one I've ever written on a > mathematical theme. . . . As I recall, the poem was triggered by an > article in the New Yorker about the construction of a supercomputer in an > attempt to work out Pi to the most possible decimal points. > * > * > * > * > *Observing Pi* > > > Thousands of numerals scroll up the screen, > instances of the inexplicable, and the room heats > as if with strain, but it's just light bursting > against the computer's dumb retina, > the glow of absolute method unfolding > absolutely--these random digits aimed > in the general direction of God, > the welcome end of all axioms. > > Any skull will circle to contemplate > its own diameter, zeroing in > closer, closer, but never arriving. > Pi is some super-Alaska, peak > upon nameless peak, far beyond all maps. > Yet in every infinity some order > occurs by accident. Snatches of > Beethoven's Fifth, all my old phone numbers, > the genetic code of cockroaches, > stock market quotes from 2004-- > all these and their negations exist in Pi, > along with test scores and tax refunds. > > Staring at the luminous terminal > I think: it's You again, isn't it, > Ancient of Days? You always loved a riddle, > a test, a bet, some cosmic tit-for-tat > such as undid Job and the prodigal's > brother. Though fewer today believe > that You mean it in some old testament way > --righteous locusts blacking the horizon-- > You're so huge there's no way to tell true chance > from Your maybe accidental truth. > > Yes, Nameless One, I'm talking to myself, > as I might address a cold front or tide, > a slim shiver of wind in the top branches, > and if I'm faithful it is because > I'll never know the next digit before > it comes--and know that I will never know. > Out of the pearly winter skies today > come millions of skittish snowflakes, teased down > by the transcendental wind. So I stand, > head back-tilted, gazing far into > that downrushing swarm. I am observing > Pi, that much I will admit, and how > my mind is perfectly chilled with it. > > --David Graham. *Tampa Review* 11 (Fall 1995) > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Mar 14, 2010, at 11:45 AM, David Weinstock wrote: > > In 4th grade in a little country school in New Jersey, a friend and I > challenged each other to memorize pi. I reached about 70 digits; he went on > to 100. Both efforts far exceed any conceivable practical use for the ratio > -- one could calculate the volume of the entire universe without needing > that precise a value of pi and not be wrong by half a cubic inch. > > My friend is now a professor of physics, and I'm not, but I can still > rattle off the digits to about two dozen places. > > Happy Pi Day! > > David 3/14/10 > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Mon Mar 15 13:55:03 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 10:55:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Would you buy art? A poem? Message-ID: <490359.51239.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Would you pay for a poem? Possible? Worth it? What's art worth? Is poetry art? Is capitalism art? Is there a support-artists culture? Here - http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/15/paid-for-poem/ Thanks, Amy _______ HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From david.weinstock at gmail.com Mon Mar 15 18:04:17 2010 From: david.weinstock at gmail.com (David Weinstock) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:04:17 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Would you buy art? A poem? In-Reply-To: <490359.51239.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <490359.51239.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <437b1e3a1003151504h72906160ma5be6d877ca6b6d9@mail.gmail.com> I am pretty much reconciled to the idea that we give our poems away in exchange for other considerations. Short poems especially do not get book deals, film options, or leveraged buyouts. Here and there, as a sort of stunt, someone will offer to sell a poem or buy one, but that's not really the poetry business model. What people pay for is generally not a poem, but a real live poet, a person who has written poems and knows how it's done. We might be paid to give a reading, teach a class, edit a manuscript, or be a professor. Yes? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Mar 15 19:24:41 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:24:41 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Would you buy art? A poem? In-Reply-To: <437b1e3a1003151504h72906160ma5be6d877ca6b6d9@mail.gmail.com> References: <490359.51239.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <437b1e3a1003151504h72906160ma5be6d877ca6b6d9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B9EC1B9.8060801@nut-n-but.net> David Weinstock wrote: > I am pretty much reconciled to the idea that we give our poems away in > exchange for other considerations. Short poems especially do not get > book deals, film options, or leveraged buyouts. > > Here and there, as a sort of stunt, someone will offer to sell a poem > or buy one, but that's not really the poetry business model. What > people pay for is generally not a poem, but a real live poet, a person > who has written poems and knows how it's done. We might be paid to > give a reading, teach a class, edit a manuscript, or be a professor. > > Yes? Yes, except you left out win a grant. --Bob From david.weinstock at gmail.com Mon Mar 15 18:49:45 2010 From: david.weinstock at gmail.com (David Weinstock) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:49:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Would you buy art? A poem? In-Reply-To: <4B9EC1B9.8060801@nut-n-but.net> References: <490359.51239.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <437b1e3a1003151504h72906160ma5be6d877ca6b6d9@mail.gmail.com> <4B9EC1B9.8060801@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <437b1e3a1003151549u602c4d8cpa1d847aa183ab3ef@mail.gmail.com> A more ancient form of support for the arts was patronage. Long ago, it was overt -- you would dedicate your book to a noble lord either to ask, or to thank, for a bag of gold. I wonder if it still exists in that form. Are there wealthy people who simply provide cash for poets, directly, as patrons? I suspect so, but also suspect that such arrangements tend to be very discreet nowadays. Can anyone tell me a story about today's version of direct patronage? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Mon Mar 15 20:27:49 2010 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 20:27:49 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Would you buy art? A poem? In-Reply-To: <437b1e3a1003151504h72906160ma5be6d877ca6b6d9@mail.gmail.com> References: <490359.51239.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <437b1e3a1003151504h72906160ma5be6d877ca6b6d9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: And who gets to take that paid-for poet home after class? Hal follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest collection -- http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 6:04 PM, David Weinstock wrote: > I am pretty much reconciled to the idea that we give our poems away in > exchange for other considerations. Short poems especially do not get book > deals, film options, or leveraged buyouts. > > Here and there, as a sort of stunt, someone will offer to sell a poem or > buy one, but that's not really the poetry business model. What people pay > for is generally not a poem, but a real live poet, a person who has written > poems and knows how it's done. We might be paid to give a reading, teach a > class, edit a manuscript, or be a professor. > > Yes? > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Mon Mar 15 23:04:09 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 23:04:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry as a Soon-to-Be Bestselling Cure-All Message-ID: <8CC92CC7B591A59-86C4-3ECB@webmail-m016.sysops.aol.com> http://therumpus.net/2010/03/poetry-as-a-soon-to-be-bestselling-cure-all/ Poetry as a Soon-to-Be Bestselling Cure-All Michael Berger bio ? March 4th, 2010 ? filed under books Poetry doesn?t seem to sell, although there are hundreds upon hundreds of poets creating it. I would venture to guess that there are at least twice as many poetry contests out there than fiction contests. Everywhere I turn I see the smiling, slightly abashed face of a poet. Why do you write poetry? I ask them. Because, they say, it helps me talk about the abyss. And when I talk about it, I don?t have to think about it as often. That sounds advantageous for both reader and writer, I tell them. So why do books of poetry never sell at my bookstore? Whenever somebody buys a book of poetry at my store I feel I have to congratulate him or her and then we start talking. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Tue Mar 16 11:19:39 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:19:39 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Goaltending wisdom from Margaret Atwood Message-ID: <9A810C5D-D089-4D5F-B43E-7F5C33E9AD0A@ripon.edu> This is too good not to share. A brief video in which major Canadian author Margaret Atwood shares her hockey tips. And, yes, she does wear a goalie's uniform. http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2010/03/15/margaret_atwood_hockey_video ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From barrys.alpert at gmail.com Tue Mar 16 16:13:28 2010 From: barrys.alpert at gmail.com (Barry Alpert) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 16:13:28 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Goaltending wisdom from Margaret Atwood Message-ID: This brings to mind Don DeLillo's "Amazons: An Intimate Memoir by the First Woman Ever to Play in the National Hockey League" (1980), published under the pseudonym Cleo Birdwell. I'd be surprised if Atwood were unaware of it. Amusing "literary performances" from my critical perspective. Perhaps there are others which mine the materials of hockey, particularly amongst the reaction in Vancouver to this year's Official Winter Olympics. A few alternative spaces didn't like being officially muzzled, but I couldn't detect any striking performances in response. Barry Alpert -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Tue Mar 16 16:58:35 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 16:58:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Jan Schreiber defines the critic's sense of Judgment In-Reply-To: <1103191739646.1101694517006.2467.6.5011007B@scheduler> References: <1103191739646.1101694517006.2467.6.5011007B@scheduler> Message-ID: <8CC936293E04B42-6EF4-4DDA@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> You're receiving this email because of your relationship with CPR. Please confirm your continued interest in receiving email from us. You may unsubscribe if you no longer wish to receive our emails. An Agenda for Critics by Jan Schreiber Is it comprehensible? The question precedes all others and is in our time surprisingly complex. A poem can elude understanding because the reader does not recognize what it is about, or -- less often -- because the writer is not in control of his material; but the obscurity can sometimes be deliberate, as when a writer attempts to convey the emotional impact of a situation without describing the situation itself. So the critic's first responsibility is not to determine the writer's intention -- a futile quest most of the time -- but to make sense of the poem. Doing so involves a combination of sympathy and skepticism. The reader must be alive to the possible meanings inherent in the text, yet not so credulous that any random association comes, for him, to represent what the poem is about. A passage in Hart Crane's "For the Marriage of Faustus and Helen" may illustrate the point: The mind is brushed by sparrow wings; Numbers, rebuffed by asphalt, crowd The margins of the day, accent the curbs, Conveying divers dawns on every corner After the poem was published, numerous conscientious readers found this passage extremely obscure. They were troubled by the word "numbers," which some took to be mathematical abstractions and others felt must be people. Neither interpretation shed much light on the passage, and only some time later, when it was pointed out that "numbers" referred to the sparrows in the first line, did the meaning of the passage, and the imagery it conveys, become clear. For a contemporary example, consider this passage from a poem by Jorie Graham: Then, sugary at first, then monstrous, cuneiform, as if a microscopic chain had rattled once -- bony lightning -- invisible inscription -- the call is returned -- or no, another call, almost identical, is cast -- like a hoofmark on the upper registers -- across the housetops . . . Readers are likely to find this passage obscure. It seems to refer to a sound, that is, a call. But of what sort? Its quality or character is not clarified by the attributes given in the first three lines, nor by those in the final two. The six lines, in short, convey minimal information with a great deal of distraction or static. Such problems of comprehension may either cripple or, paradoxically, sometimes enhance a poem's reputation with readers. One could argue that the incoherence of large parts of Pound's Cantos has had both effects. (Click Here to Read the Full Article) Subscribe to the CPR archive! $6 per month or just $18 per year! Enjoy access to over ten years of interviews, articles, reviews, and essays. Philip Larkin and Happiness by Rachel Wetzsteon Editor's Note: I asked Rachel for this piece last year, and I am terribly sorry that it was not published before she passed away at the end of 2009. She did, however, approve this final copy. We hope you enjoy it. - Ernest Hilbert For those familiar with Philip Larkin's work, the title of this short essay will seem to offer a juxtaposition so improbable as to be laugh-out-loud funny -- rather like that old joke staple, the tiny book titled German Humor, or the admittedly unlikely prospect of a panel at a New Formalist conference on "The Achievement of the L-A-N-G-U-A-G-E Poets." Indeed, if we do associate the word with Larkin, we're most likely to think of poems in which happiness is mentioned as an absence -- as in the narrator's rueful longing in "High Windows" for "everyone young going down the long slide / To happiness, endlessly." I don't want to suggest that Larkin's poetry gives us glimpses of joy with anything resembling regularity. But I think that the topic of happiness -- what it is, how to attain and cultivate it -- is crucial to his work, and I'd like to try to show how. I'll focus on one poem, "Born Yesterday," with a few quick forays into other poems. "Born Yesterday," written in 1954 and dedicated to Sally Amis, the third child of Larkin's lifelong friend Kingsley, appeared in his 1955 collection The Less Deceived. In the first of the poem's two stanzas, Larkin reveals that he's already made a wish for the infant Sally, but rather than let us in on the wish right away -- and thereby ruin our delicious suspense -- he offers a list of what it does not consist of: "the usual stuff" of beauty, innocence, and love. These traits would of course be nice, but they are the by-products of luck; young Sally has no power to control their arrival. The poem's enumeration of clich?d notions of happiness also recalls Larkin's scorching tally of dusty platitudes about poetic childhoods in the poem, "I Remember, I Remember," written just several weeks earlier. In this poem, as we will doubtless remember, the narrator, visiting his Coventry birthplace with a friend, wryly lists all the things that didn't occur in his decidedly un-Wordsworthian childhood: he "did not invent / Blinding theologies of flowers and fruits"; there was no "farm where I could be / 'Really myself'"; at no point did he lie down with a young lady as "'all became a burning mist'"; and so on. All that happened there, he tells his friend, is that "my childhood was unspent." But in "Born Yesterday," Larkin's corrective to trite ideas about Childish Things works very differently, since, in the poem's second stanza, rather than substituting real negatives for false positives, he replaces false positives with real (and surprising) positives: his hopes that Sally may be "ordinary," "Have . . . an average of talents" and even "be dull." These wishes certainly catch us off guard -- is this happiness? -- but by the time we arrive at the stanza's end, we're convinced, remarkably enough, that it is, "If" (Larkin's charmingly modest disclaimer) "that is what a skilled, / Vigilant, flexible, / Unemphasised, enthralled / Catching of happiness is called." (Click Here to Read the Full Article) Help the CPR Please remember all the weary critics out there sweating over their reviews, counting on payment for their taxing and otherwise thankless work. Consider a tax-deductible contribution to the Contemporary Poetry Review. Your contribution helps to sustain the most energetic independent voices in poetry criticism today. Remember: They have the numbers; we the heights. Please help us today if you can. The Contemporary Poetry Review is a program of the American Poetry Fund, a charitable organization with 501(c)(3) status. Please make checks payable to the American Poetry Fund. Contemporary Poetry Review PO Box 5222 Arlington, VA 22205 USA With your help, we will continue to resuscitate the vital art of poetry criticism. "The Tell-Tale Line": Joan Houlihan on Four New Books of Poetry Previews for a movie, or a trailer, usually tell me what I need to know about the movie -- how's the acting? Dialogue? Cinematography? -- and I can make a decision to: a) go see it now, b) wait for the DVD, or c) forget about it. Sometimes word of mouth from trusted friends will convince me otherwise. However, I never seek out reviews to guide my decisions, whereas in the 70's I wouldn't bother with a movie if the great Pauline Kael wrote a bad review of it in The New Yorker. Nowadays, I might seek out and read a movie review afterwards, to see how my perceptions matched or diverged from, those of the reviewer. In the same way, I've gone from being led by a review to (or away from) a particular book of poetry, to "previewing" it, either by browsing in a bookshop, or more often, checking it out on Amazon's "look-inside-the-book" feature. (Publishers take note: my shopping habits are not unique.) Amazon also provides a kind of "trusted friends" resource with List-mania-people who have liked many of the same books I do are good references for future book buying (but the so-called reviews of a book on Amazon can be discounted automatically; most are written by the author or friends of the author). As Dan Pritchard, editor of The Critical Flame, points out in his blog, The Wooden Spoon, the delivery and distribution mechanisms for poetry (including POD, internet posts and blogs, e-books and many new micro-presses with .pdf downloads) have flooded the remaining, and vanishing, traditional gatekeepers (e.g. reviewers for major periodicals). So, with over 2,000 books of poetry produced in a year (including the small and smaller presses), the evaluation of what's worth reading is falling more and more to the reader/buyer. But is it really so difficult for a reader to decide, and rather quickly, what's worth reading? I don't think so. In fact, I think most readers of poetry can tell from the opening lines of a book if it's a book they want to read more of, just as most of us make a decision about seeing a movie from its trailer. As with a movie trailer, a lot can be seen in a small space. To test my theory, I'll use the opening lines of four books, all written from the same aesthetic (an I-based narrative) so as not to confuse ideas about an aesthetic with those of writing ability. Imagine that you must decide whether or not the whole book is worth reading based on their opening lines. (Click Here to Read More) CPR editor Ernest Hilbert's new chapbook, Aim Your Arrows at the Sun, is now available from LATR Press in New York. Contact Daniel Lin at daniel at loveamongtheruins.com. For more information about the press, please visit latr.tumblr.com. Hand-sewn in an edition of 250 copies. >From Adam Kirsch's Foreword to Aim Your Arrows at the Sun: "To be haunted, for an American poet today, is a rare and enviable condition. Not by personal demons -- everyone has those, and when poets write about them they are really haunting themselves. To be genuinely haunted, as Ernest Hilbert is in these outward- and backward-looking poems, one must be conscious of the past, and of the chastening contrast between the past and the present; in other words, one must have a sense of history. When Hilbert is visited by the past, in these poems at least, it is by grand and violent phantoms: 'I read on about the lives and deaths of kings,' he writes in a Lowellian phrase in 'April Arsenal.' Like Robert Lowell, Hilbert is drawn to scenes of carnage, where the true face of humanity seems to reveal itself." This Month Jan Schreiber Introduces an Agenda for Critics Rachel Wetzsteon on Happiness in Larkin Joan Houlihan on Four New Books of Poetry Coming up in the CPR Coming up in future issues of the CPR: Rebecca Porte on Thomas James and New Zealand poet Robin Hyde Marit MacArthur on Polish Poetry in Translation Anthony Moore on Seamus Heaney David Rothman on Poetry Handbooks Carol Bere on Carol Ann Duffy Gregory Dowling on Auden's debt to Byron Katy Evans-Bush on Tone and Archaism in Modern Poetry Andrew Goodspeed on Teresa Leo Forward email This email was sent to jforjames at aol.com by editor at contemporarypoetryreview.net. Update Profile/Email Address | Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribe? | Privacy Policy. Email Marketing by Contemporary Poetry Review | P.O. Box 5222 | Arlington | VA | 22205 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From pastoral at princetonfreechurch.net Tue Mar 16 17:40:44 2010 From: pastoral at princetonfreechurch.net (Pastor Al Schirmacher) Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 16:40:44 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Resulting Questions from "An Agenda for Critics" Message-ID: <02f901cac551$56056f20$7e01a8c0@PASTORAL> I was intrigued by the article "An Agenda for Critics" from Contemporary Poetry Review that was just posted. Of particular interest was the section, "Is it just"", specifically, "In a pluralistic society that has for some time been stepping deliberately away from fealty to an over-arching more authority, the notion that one poem, or one opinion, carries more truth and virtue than another has come to be seen as somewhat quaint, if not untenable." As an evangelical pastor, former businessman, naturalist and aspiring poet, I operate in a series of spheres that range from absolute truth to moral relativism to paradox. The integration of experience with the above observation leads to the following questions: * When did this trend in culture, specifically in poetry, begin? And why? * Can someone who believes in truth, while admitting ignorance and sometimes moral paradox, speak to our modern society? To other poets? * Can moral judgments be reasonably applied to poetry? Thanks! Al Schirmacher (Relatively new, but not overly shy, poster) PS Found much of the article fascinating, printed to contemplate in depth. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From by.tjmst at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 04:15:24 2010 From: by.tjmst at gmail.com (BY TJMST) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 09:15:24 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 69, Issue 31 In-Reply-To: <201003161700.o2GH042D028351@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <201003161700.o2GH042D028351@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5908b9b21003170115g1a48a1f0y392a64cde34cb3d7@mail.gmail.com> CAPTURED BY WOULD YOU BUY A POEM? i'm equally positvely agitated by ths literary issue which i dont even know it's still a probem in advanced literary societies like the USA.Right here in Africa people and poets do buy books and poetry books but relatively a minute population of readers do.I m not surprised one of your contributors said he routinely felicitated with poetry book buyers in his store.However some readers still prefer poetry books because its richer and possibly appealingly deeper meaning to factions or fictions.i would to say more on this later Power is very limited at my disposal besides the influx and simultaneous access of CDS,IPOD,VIDEOS and related internet websites have enormously captured or should i say shared the budget if any for poetry buyers.-especially in developing democracies with less taste for literary gifts.Even paid poetry reading is rare butauthors audience already aware that poets can be paid for such works and presentation in a dramatic form.I still opine that these options have different powers of psychological appeal,saleability,impact and consumption patterns depending on what the patron or buyer wants,needs or considers a productive doctor to his/her psyche or critical search ... More info on this ...The query is perenniallly relevant...i will buy an art form -visual or poetic or sonnet produced as an effigy thamatically on an issue locally or ppersonally or globally concerned. GBEMI TIJANI MST aka by.tjmst www.gbemitijanimst1.wordpress.com,tjmusepal in allpoetry.com,www.yasni.com On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 6:00 PM, wrote: > Send New-Poetry mailing list submissions to > ? ? ? ?new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > ? ? ? ?http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > ? ? ? ?new-poetry-request at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > You can reach the person managing the list at > ? ? ? ?new-poetry-owner at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of New-Poetry digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > ? 1. Re: Would you buy art? A poem? (David Weinstock) > ? 2. Re: Would you buy art? A poem? (Bob Grumman) > ? 3. Re: Would you buy art? A poem? (David Weinstock) > ? 4. Re: Would you buy art? A poem? (Halvard Johnson) > ? 5. Poetry as a Soon-to-Be Bestselling Cure-All (jforjames at aol.com) > ? 6. Goaltending wisdom from Margaret Atwood (David Graham) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:04:17 -0400 > From: David Weinstock > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Would you buy art? A poem? > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > ? ? ? ? > Message-ID: > ? ? ? ?<437b1e3a1003151504h72906160ma5be6d877ca6b6d9 at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > I am pretty much reconciled to the idea that we give our poems away in > exchange for other considerations. Short poems especially do not get book > deals, film options, or leveraged buyouts. > > Here and there, as a sort of stunt, someone will offer to sell a poem or buy > one, but that's not really the poetry business model. What people pay for is > generally not a poem, but a real live poet, a person who has written poems > and knows how it's done. We might be paid to give a reading, teach a class, > edit a manuscript, or be a professor. > > Yes? > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100315/0e8417b1/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:24:41 -0500 > From: Bob Grumman > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Would you buy art? A poem? > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & ?Views" > ? ? ? ? > Message-ID: <4B9EC1B9.8060801 at nut-n-but.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > > David Weinstock wrote: >> I am pretty much reconciled to the idea that we give our poems away in >> exchange for other considerations. Short poems especially do not get >> book deals, film options, or leveraged buyouts. >> >> Here and there, as a sort of stunt, someone will offer to sell a poem >> or buy one, but that's not really the poetry business model. What >> people pay for is generally not a poem, but a real live poet, a person >> who has written poems and knows how it's done. We might be paid to >> give a reading, teach a class, edit a manuscript, or be a professor. >> >> Yes? > Yes, except you left out win a grant. > > --Bob > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 18:49:45 -0400 > From: David Weinstock > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Would you buy art? A poem? > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, ?Views" > ? ? ? ? > Message-ID: > ? ? ? ?<437b1e3a1003151549u602c4d8cpa1d847aa183ab3ef at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > A more ancient form of support for the arts was patronage. Long ago, it was > overt -- you would dedicate your book to a noble lord either to ask, or to > thank, for a bag of gold. > > I wonder if it still exists in that form. Are there wealthy people who > simply provide cash for poets, directly, as patrons? I suspect so, but also > suspect that such arrangements tend to be very discreet nowadays. > > Can anyone tell me a story about today's version of direct patronage? > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100315/0902a796/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 20:27:49 -0400 > From: Halvard Johnson > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Would you buy art? A poem? > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, ?Views" > ? ? ? ? > Message-ID: > ? ? ? ? > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > And who gets to take that paid-for poet home after class? > > Hal > > follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest > collection -- > > http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 6:04 PM, David Weinstock > wrote: > >> I am pretty much reconciled to the idea that we give our poems away in >> exchange for other considerations. Short poems especially do not get book >> deals, film options, or leveraged buyouts. >> >> Here and there, as a sort of stunt, someone will offer to sell a poem or >> buy one, but that's not really the poetry business model. What people pay >> for is generally not a poem, but a real live poet, a person who has written >> poems and knows how it's done. We might be paid to give a reading, teach a >> class, edit a manuscript, or be a professor. >> >> Yes? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100315/cb26e1c8/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Mon, 15 Mar 2010 23:04:09 -0400 > From: jforjames at aol.com > Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry as a Soon-to-Be Bestselling Cure-All > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Message-ID: <8CC92CC7B591A59-86C4-3ECB at webmail-m016.sysops.aol.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" > > > http://therumpus.net/2010/03/poetry-as-a-soon-to-be-bestselling-cure-all/ > > Poetry as a Soon-to-Be Bestselling Cure-All > Michael Berger bio ?? ?March 4th, 2010 ?? ?filed under books > > Poetry doesn?t seem to sell, although there are ?hundreds upon hundreds of poets creating it. I would venture to guess that there are at least twice as many poetry contests out there than fiction contests. Everywhere I turn I see the smiling, slightly abashed face of a poet. > > Why do you write poetry? I ask them. Because, they say, it helps me talk about the abyss. And when I talk about it, I don?t have to think about it as often. ?That sounds advantageous for both reader and writer, I tell them. > > So why do books of poetry never sell at my bookstore? > > Whenever somebody buys a book of poetry at my store I feel I have to congratulate him or her and then we start talking. > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100315/3407c86a/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2010 10:19:39 -0500 > From: David Graham > Subject: [New-Poetry] Goaltending wisdom from Margaret Atwood > To: "new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu & Views" > ? ? ? ? > Message-ID: <9A810C5D-D089-4D5F-B43E-7F5C33E9AD0A at ripon.edu> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > This is too good not to share. ?A brief video in which major Canadian author Margaret Atwood shares her hockey tips. ?And, yes, she does wear a goalie's uniform. > > http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2010/03/15/margaret_atwood_hockey_video > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100316/d0ede25f/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 69, Issue 31 > ****************************************** > From jforjames at aol.com Wed Mar 17 08:41:42 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 08:41:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] British poet laureate pens ode to injured Beckham Message-ID: <8CC93E654B40236-4314-6E65@webmail-d094.sysops.aol.com> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gS0EDRA1Axb9fJfrvg3foDZiybYwD9EGC8P00 British poet laureate pens ode to injured Beckham By JILL LAWLESS (AP) ? 25 minutes ago LONDON ? O Beckham, where art thou? David Beckham has become an unlikely muse to Britain's poet laureate, who has written a verse about the soccer star's career-threatening injury. The former England captain tore his Achilles' tendon in a game on Sunday and will miss the World Cup in June as he recovers from surgery. Carol Ann Duffy's poem imagines Beckham as the ancient Greek hero Achilles, who according to myth was dipped as a baby in the River Styx, making him invulnerable ? except for his exposed heel, the origin of the modern terms Achilles' tendon, and Achilles' heel. The poem weaves the mythical story together with references to Beckham's life, including his marriage to former Spice Girl Victoria Beckham and his experimental fashion sense -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Wed Mar 17 09:00:59 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 14:00:59 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] British poet laureate pens ode to injured Beckham In-Reply-To: <8CC93E654B40236-4314-6E65@webmail-d094.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC93E654B40236-4314-6E65@webmail-d094.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003170600u4b6255c6s78db1d29cc54645b@mail.gmail.com> _Even I_ know who Beckham is from the BrEn texts we have to read in class____ On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 1:41 PM, wrote: > > http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gS0EDRA1Axb9fJfrvg3foDZiybYwD9EGC8P00 > British poet laureate pens ode to injured Beckham > By JILL LAWLESS (AP) ? 25 minutes ago > LONDON ? O Beckham, where art thou? > > David Beckham has become an unlikely muse to Britain's poet laureate, who > has written a verse about the soccer star's career-threatening injury. > > The former England captain tore his Achilles' tendon in a game on Sunday > and will miss the World Cup in June as he recovers from surgery. > > Carol Ann Duffy's poem imagines Beckham as the ancient Greek hero Achilles, > who according to myth was dipped as a baby in the River Styx, making him > invulnerable ? except for his exposed heel, the origin of the modern terms > Achilles' tendon, and Achilles' heel. > > The poem weaves the mythical story together with references to Beckham's > life, including his marriage to former Spice Girl Victoria Beckham and his > experimental fashion sense > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Mar 17 14:51:55 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 14:51:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Borges and Lowell, an international incident Message-ID: <8CC941A0CB0210D-2FA8-210E@webmail-m029.sysops.aol.com> http://www.brooklynrail.org/2010/03/books/robert-lowell-and-jorge-luis-borges-two-kings-one-pair-of-trousers-by-jesse-tangen-mills Borges claimed, ?No, I have not read the poems of Robert Lowell, and I think it is safe to say I will not read the poems of Robert Lowell.? And when the interviewer, Osvaldo Ferrari, continued to poke around for an answer, Borges alluded to that afternoon in his house, ?I hear this Lowell likes Hawthorne and I am also a 19th century man. Well?I might like his poems if he keeps his trousers on.? According to Botsford, ?Cal? had fallen into a severe depression that he tried to resolve with ?a daily dosage of double vodka martinis, often a half-dozen at a session.? No wonder Lowell sprawled out on the writer?s floor. ?Borges stayed in his chair, reflectively, and talked a lot about his mother and his early life up the Rio Plate. It was fun watching him pick his words,? he reminisces. Apparently, the fabulist even read G. K. Chesterton to calm him down, but to no avail... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From greggkirkmurray at yahoo.com Wed Mar 17 15:12:06 2010 From: greggkirkmurray at yahoo.com (Gregg Murray) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 12:12:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Borges and Lowell, an international incident In-Reply-To: <8CC941A0CB0210D-2FA8-210E@webmail-m029.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC941A0CB0210D-2FA8-210E@webmail-m029.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <843175.28560.qm@web110516.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Thank you for sharing this. Though my respect remains in the same measure (Lowell: a little. Borges: enormously), I love a good Robert Lowell drunk story! Ggg ________________________________ From: "jforjames at aol.com" To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Wed, March 17, 2010 2:51:55 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Borges and Lowell, an international incident http://www.brooklynrail.org/2010/03/books/robert-lowell-and-jorge-luis-borges-two-kings-one-pair-of-trousers-by-jesse-tangen-mills Borges claimed, ?No, I have not read the poems of Robert Lowell, and I think it is safe to say I will not read the poems of Robert Lowell.? And when the interviewer, Osvaldo Ferrari, continued to poke around for an answer, Borges alluded to that afternoon in his house, ?I hear this Lowell likes Hawthorne and I am also a 19th century man. Well?I might like his poems if he keeps his trousers on.? According to Botsford, ?Cal? had fallen into a severe depression that he tried to resolve with ?a daily dosage of double vodka martinis, often a half-dozen at a session.? No wonder Lowell sprawled out on the writer?s floor. ?Borges stayed in his chair, reflectively, and talked a lot about his mother and his early life up the Rio Plate. It was fun watching him pick his words,? he reminisces. Apparently, the fabulist even read G. K. Chesterton to calm him down, but to no avail... -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Mar 17 18:40:56 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 18:40:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] A classic for St. Paddy's Day Message-ID: <8CC943A0AA973AA-5FE0-401E@webmail-m014.sysops.aol.com> The Lake Isle Of Innisfree I will arise and go now, and go to Innisfree, And a small cabin build there, of clay and wattles made: Nine bean-rows will I have there, a hive for the honeybee, And live alone in the bee-loud glade. And I shall have some peace there, for peace comes dropping slow, Dropping from the veils of the mourning to where the cricket sings; There midnight's all a glimmer, and noon a purple glow, And evening full of the linnet's wings. I will arise and go now, for always night and day I hear lake water lapping with low sounds by the shore; While I stand on the roadway, or on the pavements grey, I hear it in the deep heart's core. --William Butler Yeats -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Wed Mar 17 22:59:04 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Wed, 17 Mar 2010 19:59:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] This Friday, March 19 @ 7 p.m. with Jillian Brall, R. Erica Doyle, Adam Fieled, Matt Rotando, Metta Sama & Paige Taggart! Message-ID: <717794.35242.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear listeners, poets & sake-drinkers, come one, come all to two spectacular Friday-in-March readings: this Friday, March 19, with Jillian Brall, R. Erica Doyle, Adam Fieled, Matt Rotando, Metta Sama & Paige Taggart! & next Friday, March 26, with Jessica Bozek, Kate Braid, Melissa Broder, Jackie Clark, Cate Marvin & Brett Eugene Ralph! Could it get any better? Hardly. So come. We'll be there. So will they (details below). You too! Love, Amy & Ana www.stainofpoetry.com March 19, Friday ~ Jillian Brall, R. Erica Doyle, Adam Fieled, Matt Rotando, Metta Sama & Paige Taggart! March 19 @ 7 p.m. Goodbye Blue Monday ? Bushwick, Brooklyn with Jillian Brall received both her BA in Creative Writing in 2004 and her MFA in Poetry in 2009 from The New School, in New York, NY. She is a NYC certified Teaching Artist, currently living in the Bushwick area of Brooklyn. She recently published a book of poems, Wet Information, under ZoeWo Press. She is also a saxophonist and visual artist, focusing on mixed media collage and painting. Several of her collages can be seen in the current issue of Pax Americana, as well as featured on The Best American Poetry Blog, and have been used as cover art for several electronic poetry books published by Scantily Clad Press. Prints of her collages, as well as copies of her book, Wet Information, are available for purchase at http://www.zoewopress.etsy.com. ~ R. Erica Doyle was born in Brooklyn to Trinidadian immigrant parents, and has lived in Washington, DC, Farmington, Connecticut and La Marsa, Tunisia. Her work has appeared in Best American Poetry, Our Caribbean: A Gathering of Lesbian and Gay Writing from the Antilles, Callaloo, Ploughshares, Best Black Women?s Erotica, Bum Rush the Page, and Ms. Magazine. She has received grants and awards from the Hurston/Wright Foundation, the Astraea Lesbian Writers Fund, and she was a New York Foundation for the Arts Poetry Fellow. She is also a fellow of Cave Canem: A Workshop and Retreat for Black Writers and her manuscript, proxy, was a finalist for the 2007 Cave Cavem Poetry Prize, selected by Claudia Rankine. She received her MFA in Poetry from the New School, and she lives in New York City, where she is at work on a novel, Fortune. Erica teaches in the NYC public schools and is the facilitator of Tongues Afire: A Creative Writing Workshop for queer women and trans and gender non-conforming people of color. ~ Adam Fieled is a poet based in Philadelphia. He has released three print books: ?Opera Bufa? (Otoliths, 2007), ?When You Bit?? (Otoliths, 2008), and ?Chimes? (Blazevox, 2009), as well as numerous chaps, e-chaps, and e-books, including ?Posit? (Dusie Press, 2007) and ?The White Album? (ungovernable press, 2009). He has work in journals like Tears in the Fence, Great Works, The Argotist, Upstairs at Duroc, Jacket, and in the &Now Anthology from Lake Forest College Press. A magna cum laude graduate of the University of Pennsylvania, he also holds an MFA from New England College and an MA from Temple University, where he is completing his PhD. ~ Matt Rotando is a steak-man, a cyclist, and a skeet-shooter. He prefers swimming to the harpsichord, mangoes to mangosteen, and jackfruit above all fruits but the avocado. These days he can often be found skulking about the edges of Oyster Bay, Long Island, looking for something crunchy. Poems are for whying and sometimes for why-notting, but he likes those poems best that get him the odd fake cigarette or temporary tattoo. His book is The Comeback?s Exoskeleton and he has poems in this month?s Shampoo. His favorite color is green and silver. The word is a lot weaker than a slap on the back of the head, except when it isn?t. The inside of words is a spacey place for looking out. That?s grandiloquence! And in the shade of a Bonzai tree, or just a rented white wall, his shoes await The Great Trans-American Spin. ~ Metta Sama says: I am a poet, professor, activist, painter, collage artist, fiction and essay writer. My poetry, currently, looks at instabilities in writings by persons subjected to various forms of oppression. I am interested in the joy of making and creating art and stories and images that will, eventually, disintegrate, return to the source it came from. I question what it means to make thoughts, ideas, & feelings stable, to devote oneself to immortality. My work has appeared in Proud Flesh Journal, The Drunken Boat, Blackbird, Paterson Literary Review, Yellow Medicine Review, Crab Orchard, and other journals, & I am the author of one published collection of poems. ~ Paige Taggart lives in Brooklyn. Her chapbook Polaroid Parade is forthcoming with Greying Ghost Press. She has an e-chapbook, Won?t Be A Girl with Scantily Clad Press. She is a recipient of the 2009 NYFA fellowship. Recent or forthcoming work can be found at No Tell Motel, Glitterpony, Raleigh Quarterly, Sink Review, RealPoetik, pax americana, We Are So Happy To Know Something. Peruse her blog: http://mactaggartjewelry.blogspot.com. & March 26, Friday ~ Jessica Bozek, Kate Braid, Melissa Broder, Jackie Clark, Cate Marvin & Brett Eugene Ralph! March 26 @ 7 p.m. Goodbye Blue Monday ? Bushwick, Brooklyn with Jessica Bozek is the author of The Bodyfeel Lexicon (Switchback Books) and several chapbooks. Recent poems appear in Action, Yes, Artifice, Fairy Tale Review, P-QUEUE, and Womb. Jessica runs Small Animal Project (smallanimalproject.com), a reading series and web-text experiment based in Cambridge, MA. ~ Kate Braid is a poet, essayist, biographer, and teacher. Braid?s first book, Covering Rough Ground, was about her experience as a carpenter, and won the Pat Lowther Award for best book of poems by a Canadian woman. She is also the author of To This Cedar Fountain, Inward to the Bones: Georgia O?Keefe?s Journey with Emily Carr, A Well-Mannered Storm: The Glenn Gould Poems, and a co-editor, Sandy Shreve, of In Fine Form, the first anthology of Canadian form poetry. A second book of poems about her experiences in construction, Turning Left to the Ladies, was published by Palimpsest in June 2009. She has also written three books of non-fiction and is currently working on a memoir of her fifteen years as a carpenter. ~ Melissa Broder is the author of WHEN YOU SAY ONE THING BUT MEAN YOUR MOTHER (Ampersand Books, February 2010). She is the curator of the Polestar Poetry Series and the Chief Editor of La Petite Zine. Broder received her BA from Tufts University and is currently in the MFA program at CCNY. She is the winner of the Jerome Lowell Dejur Award and the Stark Prize for Poetry. By day, she works as a literary publicist. Her poems have appeared in many journals, including: Opium, Shampoo, Conte and The Del Sol Review. ~ Jackie Clark is currently co-editor-in-chief for LIT magazine. She also curates Poets off Poetry at coldfrontmag.com, where poets write about music. Her chapbook Office Work is forthcoming from Greying Ghost Press. She lives in Jersey City. ~ Cate Marvin?s first book, World?s Tallest Disaster, was chosen by Robert Pinksy for the 2000 Kathryn A. Morton Prize and published by Sarabande Books in 2001. In 2002, she received the Kate Tufts Discovery Prize. Her poems have appeared in The New England Review, Poetry, The Kenyon Review, Fence, The Paris Review, The Cincinnati Review, Slate, Verse, Boston Review, and Ninth Letter. She is co-editor with poet Michael Dumanis of the anthology Legitimate Dangers: American Poets of the New Century (Sarabande Books, 2006). Her second book of poems, Fragment of the Head of a Queen, was published by Sarabande in August 2007. A recent Whiting Award recipient and 2007 NYFA Gregory Millard Fellow, she teaches poetry writing in Lesley University?s Low-Residency M.F.A. Program and is an associate professor in creative writing at the College of Staten Island, City University of New York. ~ Brett Eugene Ralph spent the better part of his youth in Louisville, Kentucky, playing football and singing in punk rock bands. His work has appeared in journals such as Conduit, Mudfish, Willow Springs, and The American Poetry Review; it has been anthologized in The McSweeney?s Book of Poets Picking Poets and The Stiffest of the Corpse: An Exquisite Corpse Reader. His first full-length collection, Black Sabbatical, was published by Sarabande Books in 2009. Brett has taught at the University of Massachusetts, Missouri State University, and the Central Institute of Buddhist Studies in the Himalayas of northern India. Currently, he lives in Empire, Kentucky, and teaches at Hopkinsville Community College. His country rock ensemble, Brett Eugene Ralph?s Kentucky Chrome Revue, can be heard in seedy dives throughout the South. at Goodbye Blue Monday 1087 Broadway (corner of Dodworth St) Brooklyn, NY 11221-3013 (718) 453-6343 J M Z trains to Myrtle Ave or J train to Kosciusko St ~ Hosted by Amy King and Ana Bo?i?evi? _______ HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Mar 18 14:19:48 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 14:19:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lectures on Teaching Poetry from U of Cal Press... In-Reply-To: <0.0.30.464.1CAC642DBB74926.0@mail3.tailorednews.com> References: <0.0.30.464.1CAC642DBB74926.0@mail3.tailorednews.com> Message-ID: <8CC94DEBA2C393C-A6B0-A20@webmail-d059.sysops.aol.com> Having difficulty viewing this email? View it using your web browser by clicking here. March 2010 Dear eNews Subscriber, The following is an email update based on the interests chosen in your profile. To ensure you continue to receive emails that ONLY match your preferences, be sure to edit your profile to refine what we send you. The Lost Boys of Zeta Psi A Historical Archaeology of Masculinity at a University Fraternity Laurie A. Wilkie Laurie A. Wilkie uncovers details of everyday life in the first fraternity at the University of California, Berkeley, and sets this story into the rich social and historical context of West Coast America at the turn of the last century. Read More cloth 978-0-520-26059-7 $60.00 Buy Now paper 978-0-520-26060-3 $24.95 Buy Now The Judith Lee Stronach Memorial Lectures on the Teaching of Poetry The Judith Lee Stronach Memorial Lectures on the Teaching of Poetry was established in 2003 in memory of a poet and an inspired teacher of poetry to children and to the underprivileged. She is also remembered for her generosity in support of actions, world wide, to safeguard and to further Human Rights. This series of lectures on teaching poetry by distinguished poets was conceived of by her family as a contribution to the role poetry plays at Berkeley in occasions that bring the public and academic communities together. On Teaching Poetry Robert Hass The Judith Lee Stronach Memorial Lecture on the Teaching of Poetry, 1 paper 978-1-893663-20-6 $14.95 Read More "You Only Guide Me by Surprise" Poetry and the Dolphin's Turn Peter Sacks The Judith Lee Stronach Memorial Lecture on the Teaching of Poetry, 2 paper 978-1-893663-21-3 $14.95 Read More Cracks in the Oracle Bone Teaching Certain Contemporary Poems Brenda Hillman The Judith Lee Stronach Memorial Lecture on the Teaching of Poetry, 3 paper 978-1-893663-22-0 $14.95 Read More What Does an Elegy Do? Sharon Olds The Judith Lee Stronach Memorial Lecture on the Teaching of Poetry, 4 paper 978-1-893663-25-1 $14.95 Read More Poetry, Love, and Mercy Carl Phillips The Judith Lee Stronach Memorial Lecture on the Teaching of Poetry, 5 paper 978-1-893663-27-5 $14.95 Read More If you are interested in an evaluation or desk copy of one of the titles above, please read our Books for Course Use policy. UC Press is concerned about your privacy. We do not rent, sell or exchange email addresses. ?2010 UC Press. All rights reserved. University of California Press, 2120 Berkeley Way, Berkeley, CA 94704-1012 You are subscribed using the following email address: jforjames at aol.com. If you wish to change your selections or unsubscribe altogether, click below. :: Tailor your profile settings... :: Forward this to a friend... :: To be removed, use this one-click unsubscribe link... :: Not yet signed up? Go here... :: View our privacy policy... TailoredMail is a leading email & RSS broadcasting service helping organizations create highly tailored and relevant communications. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 14:38:56 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 19:38:56 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] A classic for St. Paddy's Day In-Reply-To: <8CC943A0AA973AA-5FE0-401E@webmail-m014.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC943A0AA973AA-5FE0-401E@webmail-m014.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003181138l7a8a5363w1b087080cf12dc52@mail.gmail.com> probably one of my favorite poems. Happy Saint Patrick's day, Anny On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 11:40 PM, wrote: > The Lake Isle Of Innisfree > > I will arise and go now, and go to Innisfree, > And a small cabin build there, of clay and wattles made: > Nine bean-rows will I have there, a hive for the honeybee, > And live alone in the bee-loud glade. > > And I shall have some peace there, for peace comes dropping slow, > Dropping from the veils of the mourning to where the cricket sings; > There midnight's all a glimmer, and noon a purple glow, > And evening full of the linnet's wings. > > I will arise and go now, for always night and day > I hear lake water lapping with low sounds by the shore; > While I stand on the roadway, or on the pavements grey, > I hear it in the deep heart's core. > > > --William Butler Yeats > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Mar 18 15:00:31 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 15:00:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] A classic for St. Paddy's Day In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71003181138l7a8a5363w1b087080cf12dc52@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CC943A0AA973AA-5FE0-401E@webmail-m014.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d71003181138l7a8a5363w1b087080cf12dc52@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CC94E46A47F732-A6B0-11DE@webmail-d059.sysops.aol.com> I don't have my books handy...is it veils of mourning/morning? Dropping from the veils of the mourning to where the cricket sings; Some pics here: http://clipmarks.com/clipmark/D6DE1A10-6538-45AE-BE0B-00EFCE477E59/ Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Thu, Mar 18, 2010 2:38 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A classic for St. Paddy's Day probably one of my favorite poems. Happy Saint Patrick's day, Anny On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 11:40 PM, wrote: The Lake Isle Of Innisfree I will arise and go now, and go to Innisfree, And a small cabin build there, of clay and wattles made: Nine bean-rows will I have there, a hive for the honeybee, And live alone in the bee-loud glade. And I shall have some peace there, for peace comes dropping slow, Dropping from the veils of the mourning to where the cricket sings; There midnight's all a glimmer, and noon a purple glow, And evening full of the linnet's wings. I will arise and go now, for always night and day I hear lake water lapping with low sounds by the shore; While I stand on the roadway, or on the pavements grey, I hear it in the deep heart's core. --William Butler Yeats _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Mar 18 15:04:41 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 15:04:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Lectures on Teaching Poetry from U of Cal Press... In-Reply-To: <8CC94DEBA2C393C-A6B0-A20@webmail-d059.sysops.aol.com> References: <0.0.30.464.1CAC642DBB74926.0@mail3.tailorednews.com> <8CC94DEBA2C393C-A6B0-A20@webmail-d059.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC94E4FFAB40B4-A6B0-12CC@webmail-d059.sysops.aol.com> http://www.ucpress.edu/books/series/jlsp.php?utm_campaign=[newsletter]%20for%20[name]%20-%20[longdate]&utm_content=[emailaddress]&utm_medium=UC%20Press%20eNews,%203/17/10&utm_source=TailoredMail&utm_term=The%20Judith%20Lee%20Stronach%20Memorial%20Lectures%20on%20the%20Teaching%20of%20Poetry $14.95 seems a bit pricey for one lecture. Has anyone read these? (I could find any audio/video files online.) Philip Levine A History of My Befuddlement Carl Phillips Poetry, Love, and Mercy Sharon Olds What Does an Elegy Do? Brenda Hillman Cracks in the Oracle Bone Teaching Certain Contemporary Poems Peter Sacks "You Only Guide Me by Surprise" Poetry and the Dolphin's Turn Robert Hass On Teaching Poetry The Judith Lee Stronach Memorial Lecture on the Teaching of Poetry, 1 $14.95, ?10.95 paperback -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Thu Mar 18 15:27:30 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 20:27:30 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] A classic for St. Paddy's Day In-Reply-To: <8CC94E46A47F732-A6B0-11DE@webmail-d059.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC943A0AA973AA-5FE0-401E@webmail-m014.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d71003181138l7a8a5363w1b087080cf12dc52@mail.gmail.com> <8CC94E46A47F732-A6B0-11DE@webmail-d059.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003181227i61ee9f8fjc66ed18cb49f153d@mail.gmail.com> http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/15529 mourning and Yeats reading On Thu, Mar 18, 2010 at 8:00 PM, wrote: > I don't have my books handy...is it veils of mourning/morning? > > Dropping from the veils of the mourning to where the cricket sings; > > > Some pics here: > > http://clipmarks.com/clipmark/D6DE1A10-6538-45AE-BE0B-00EFCE477E59/ > Finnegan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anny Ballardini > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Sent: Thu, Mar 18, 2010 2:38 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A classic for St. Paddy's Day > > probably one of my favorite poems. Happy Saint Patrick's day, Anny > > On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 11:40 PM, wrote: > >> The Lake Isle Of Innisfree >> >> I will arise and go now, and go to Innisfree, >> And a small cabin build there, of clay and wattles made: >> Nine bean-rows will I have there, a hive for the honeybee, >> And live alone in the bee-loud glade. >> >> And I shall have some peace there, for peace comes dropping slow, >> Dropping from the veils of the mourning to where the cricket sings; >> There midnight's all a glimmer, and noon a purple glow, >> And evening full of the linnet's wings. >> >> I will arise and go now, for always night and day >> I hear lake water lapping with low sounds by the shore; >> While I stand on the roadway, or on the pavements grey, >> I hear it in the deep heart's core. >> >> >> --William Butler Yeats >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Mar 18 15:44:14 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 15:44:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Slam poet Shane Koyczan after the Vancouver Olympics Message-ID: <8CC94EA86344993-A6B0-1BA2@webmail-d059.sysops.aol.com> http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2010/03/18/shane-koyczan.html Koyczan congratulates VANOC, the Olympic organizers, for including poetry in the ceremony. "I thought it was a return to tradition," he said. "When you think about the Olympic ceremonies back in the Greek days of the originals games, they didn't have multi-platform artists, they had storytellers and bards ? If they had an opening ceremony I'm sure that was what it was composed of." Koyczan is to perform We Are More, a moving ode to Canada, in Toronto's Eaton Centre on Thursday. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Thu Mar 18 16:15:18 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 15:15:18 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Lectures on Teaching Poetry from U of Cal Press... In-Reply-To: <8CC94E4FFAB40B4-A6B0-12CC@webmail-d059.sysops.aol.com> References: <0.0.30.464.1CAC642DBB74926.0@mail3.tailorednews.com> <8CC94DEBA2C393C-A6B0-A20@webmail-d059.sysops.aol.com> <8CC94E4FFAB40B4-A6B0-12CC@webmail-d059.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <0F7E7410-1684-4399-866F-ADCF3EC4587C@ripon.edu> Yes, that's $14.95 for 32 pages, which is not all text, even--there are two illustrations also included, their web page says. On the other hand, "pricey" is a relative term, of course. At a library once I found a fabulous set of lectures Seamus Heaney delivered at Emory, titled "The Place of Writing." To my knowledge it's never been reprinted in its entirety, except in that small & pricey monograph (currently $65 at Amazon). But there are couple sections of it in *Finders Keepers*. I'd sure like to get a look at Philip Levine's "A History of My Befuddlement". . . . ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Mar 18, 2010, at 2:04 PM, JforJames at aol.com wrote: > http://www.ucpress.edu/books/series/jlsp.php?utm_campaign=[newsletter]%20for%20[name]%20-%20[longdate]&utm_content=[emailaddress]&utm_medium=UC%20Press%20eNews,%203/17/10&utm_source=TailoredMail&utm_term=The%20Judith%20Lee%20Stronach%20Memorial%20Lectures%20on%20the%20Teaching%20of%20Poetry > > > $14.95 seems a bit pricey for one lecture. Has anyone read these? (I could find any audio/video files online.) > > Philip Levine > A History of My Befuddlement > Carl Phillips > Poetry, Love, and Mercy > Sharon Olds > What Does an Elegy Do? > Brenda Hillman > Cracks in the Oracle Bone > Teaching Certain Contemporary Poems > Peter Sacks > "You Only Guide Me by Surprise" > Poetry and the Dolphin's Turn > Robert Hass > On Teaching Poetry > The Judith Lee Stronach Memorial Lecture on the Teaching of Poetry, 1 $14.95, ?10.95 paperback > > _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Mar 18 20:09:07 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 20:09:07 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] words without borders Message-ID: <8CC950F86D722A7-5F20-1116D@Webmail-m113.sysops.aol.com> I just ran across this very nice international/translation site, so I'm passing it on: http://wordswithoutborders.org/ = -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Mar 18 20:26:50 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 20:26:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] words without borders Message-ID: <8CC951200616B33-5F20-114BD@Webmail-m113.sysops.aol.com> Greek poet... http://wordswithoutborders.org/article/black-lips/ On a cool international/translation site. http://wordswithoutborders.org/ Jim Finnegan 860-508-2810 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Mar 18 20:29:21 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 20:29:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] words without borders In-Reply-To: <8CC951200616B33-5F20-114BD@Webmail-m113.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC951200616B33-5F20-114BD@Webmail-m113.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC95125A80456B-5F20-11535@Webmail-m113.sysops.aol.com> Jim Finnegan 860-508-2810 -----Original Message----- From: jforjames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thu, Mar 18, 2010 8:26 pm Subject: [New-Poetry] words without borders Greek poet... http://wordswithoutborders.org/article/black-lips/ On a cool international/translation site. http://wordswithoutborders.org/ Jim Finnegan 860-508-2810 _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Mar 18 20:31:24 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 18 Mar 2010 20:31:24 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: words without borders In-Reply-To: <8CC951200616B33-5F20-114BD@Webmail-m113.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC951200616B33-5F20-114BD@Webmail-m113.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC9512A3D41E47-5F20-115B7@Webmail-m113.sysops.aol.com> Sorry, tried to forward to friend and hit reply all. -----Original Message----- From: jforjames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Thu, Mar 18, 2010 8:26 pm Subject: words without borders Greek poet... http://wordswithoutborders.org/article/black-lips/ On a cool international/translation site. http://wordswithoutborders.org/ Jim Finnegan 860-508-2810 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Fri Mar 19 15:04:39 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 12:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] TONIGHT @ 7 p.m. in the gorgeous just-about-summer air, come to Goodbye Blue Monday, get some drink and poetry in your ear! Pour gently... Message-ID: <281559.93525.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Dear listeners, poets & sake-drinkers, Come one, come all to two spectacular Friday-in-March readings: TONIGHT -- Friday, March 19, with Jillian Brall, R. Erica Doyle, Adam Fieled, Matt Rotando, Metta Sama & Paige Taggart! & next Friday, March 26, with Jessica Bozek, Kate Braid, Melissa Broder, Jackie Clark, Cate Marvin & Brett Eugene Ralph! Could it get any better? Hardly. So come. We'll be there. So will they (details below). You too! Love, Amy & Ana www.stainofpoetry.com March 19, Friday -- 7 p.m. ~ Jillian Brall, R. Erica Doyle, Adam Fieled, Matt Rotando, Metta Sama & Paige Taggart! @ Goodbye Blue Monday ? Bushwick, Brooklyn at Goodbye Blue Monday 1087 Broadway (corner of Dodworth St) Brooklyn, NY 11221-3013 (718) 453-6343 J M Z trains to Myrtle Ave or J train to Kosciusko St with Jillian Brall received both her BA in Creative Writing in 2004 and her MFA in Poetry in 2009 from The New School, in New York, NY. She is a NYC certified Teaching Artist, currently living in the Bushwick area of Brooklyn. She recently published a book of poems, Wet Information, under ZoeWo Press. She is also a saxophonist and visual artist, focusing on mixed media collage and painting. Several of her collages can be seen in the current issue of Pax Americana, as well as featured on The Best American Poetry Blog, and have been used as cover art for several electronic poetry books published by Scantily Clad Press. Prints of her collages, as well as copies of her book, Wet Information, are available for purchase at http://www.zoewopress.etsy.com . ~ R. Erica Doyle was born in Brooklyn to Trinidadian immigrant parents, and has lived in Washington, DC, Farmington, Connecticut and La Marsa, Tunisia. Her work has appeared in Best American Poetry, Our Caribbean: A Gathering of Lesbian and Gay Writing from the Antilles, Callaloo, Ploughshares, Best Black Women?s Erotica, Bum Rush the Page, and Ms. Magazine. She has received grants and awards from the Hurston/Wright Foundation, the Astraea Lesbian Writers Fund, and she was a New York Foundation for the Arts Poetry Fellow. She is also a fellow of Cave Canem: A Workshop and Retreat for Black Writers and her manuscript, proxy, was a finalist for the 2007 Cave Cavem Poetry Prize, selected by Claudia Rankine. She received her MFA in Poetry from the New School, and she lives in New York City, where she is at work on a novel, Fortune. Erica teaches in the NYC public schools and is the facilitator of Tongues Afire: A Creative Writing Workshop for queer women and trans and gender non-conforming people of color. ~ Adam Fieled is a poet based in Philadelphia. He has released three print books: ?Opera Bufa? (Otoliths, 2007), ?When You Bit?? (Otoliths, 2008), and ?Chimes? (Blazevox, 2009), as well as numerous chaps, e-chaps, and e-books, including ?Posit? (Dusie Press, 2007) and ?The White Album? (ungovernable press, 2009). He has work in journals like Tears in the Fence, Great Works, The Argotist, Upstairs at Duroc, Jacket, and in the &Now Anthology from Lake Forest College Press. A magna cum laude graduate of the University of Pennsylvania, he also holds an MFA from New England College and an MA from Temple University, where he is completing his PhD. ~ Matt Rotando is a steak-man, a cyclist, and a skeet-shooter. He prefers swimming to the harpsichord, mangoes to mangosteen, and jackfruit above all fruits but the avocado. These days he can often be found skulking about the edges of Oyster Bay, Long Island, looking for something crunchy. Poems are for whying and sometimes for why-notting, but he likes those poems best that get him the odd fake cigarette or temporary tattoo. His book is The Comeback?s Exoskeleton and he has poems in this month?s Shampoo. His favorite color is green and silver. The word is a lot weaker than a slap on the back of the head, except when it isn?t. The inside of words is a spacey place for looking out. That?s grandiloquence! And in the shade of a Bonzai tree, or just a rented white wall, his shoes await The Great Trans-American Spin. ~ Metta Sama says: I am a poet, professor, activist, painter, collage artist, fiction and essay writer. My poetry, currently, looks at instabilities in writings by persons subjected to various forms of oppression. I am interested in the joy of making and creating art and stories and images that will, eventually, disintegrate, return to the source it came from. I question what it means to make thoughts, ideas, & feelings stable, to devote oneself to immortality. My work has appeared in Proud Flesh Journal, The Drunken Boat, Blackbird, Paterson Literary Review, Yellow Medicine Review, Crab Orchard, and other journals, & I am the author of one published collection of poems. ~ Paige Taggart lives in Brooklyn. Her chapbook Polaroid Parade is forthcoming with Greying Ghost Press. She has an e-chapbook, Won?t Be A Girl with Scantily Clad Press. She is a recipient of the 2009 NYFA fellowship. Recent or forthcoming work can be found at No Tell Motel, Glitterpony, Raleigh Quarterly, Sink Review, RealPoetik, pax americana, We Are So Happy To Know Something. Peruse her blog: http://mactaggartjewelry. blogspot.com. & March 26, Friday ~ Jessica Bozek, Kate Braid, Melissa Broder, Jackie Clark, Cate Marvin & Brett Eugene Ralph! March 26 @ 7 p.m. Goodbye Blue Monday ? Bushwick, Brooklyn with Jessica Bozek is the author of The Bodyfeel Lexicon (Switchback Books) and several chapbooks. Recent poems appear in Action, Yes, Artifice, Fairy Tale Review, P-QUEUE, and Womb. Jessica runs Small Animal Project (smallanimalproject.com), a reading series and web-text experiment based in Cambridge, MA. ~ Kate Braid is a poet, essayist, biographer, and teacher. Braid?s first book, Covering Rough Ground, was about her experience as a carpenter, and won the Pat Lowther Award for best book of poems by a Canadian woman. She is also the author of To This Cedar Fountain, Inward to the Bones: Georgia O?Keefe?s Journey with Emily Carr, A Well-Mannered Storm: The Glenn Gould Poems, and a co-editor, Sandy Shreve, of In Fine Form, the first anthology of Canadian form poetry. A second book of poems about her experiences in construction, Turning Left to the Ladies, was published by Palimpsest in June 2009. She has also written three books of non-fiction and is currently working on a memoir of her fifteen years as a carpenter. ~ Melissa Broder is the author of WHEN YOU SAY ONE THING BUT MEAN YOUR MOTHER (Ampersand Books, February 2010). She is the curator of the Polestar Poetry Series and the Chief Editor of La Petite Zine. Broder received her BA from Tufts University and is currently in the MFA program at CCNY. She is the winner of the Jerome Lowell Dejur Award and the Stark Prize for Poetry. By day, she works as a literary publicist. Her poems have appeared in many journals, including: Opium, Shampoo, Conte and The Del Sol Review. ~ Jackie Clark is currently co-editor-in-chief for LIT magazine. She also curates Poets off Poetry at coldfrontmag.com, where poets write about music. Her chapbook Office Work is forthcoming from Greying Ghost Press. She lives in Jersey City. ~ Cate Marvin?s first book, World?s Tallest Disaster, was chosen by Robert Pinksy for the 2000 Kathryn A. Morton Prize and published by Sarabande Books in 2001. In 2002, she received the Kate Tufts Discovery Prize. Her poems have appeared in The New England Review, Poetry, The Kenyon Review, Fence, The Paris Review, The Cincinnati Review, Slate, Verse, Boston Review, and Ninth Letter. She is co-editor with poet Michael Dumanis of the anthology Legitimate Dangers: American Poets of the New Century (Sarabande Books, 2006). Her second book of poems, Fragment of the Head of a Queen, was published by Sarabande in August 2007. A recent Whiting Award recipient and 2007 NYFA Gregory Millard Fellow, she teaches poetry writing in Lesley University?s Low-Residency M.F.A. Program and is an associate professor in creative writing at the College of Staten Island, City University of New York. ~ Brett Eugene Ralph spent the better part of his youth in Louisville, Kentucky, playing football and singing in punk rock bands. His work has appeared in journals such as Conduit, Mudfish, Willow Springs, and The American Poetry Review; it has been anthologized in The McSweeney?s Book of Poets Picking Poets and The Stiffest of the Corpse: An Exquisite Corpse Reader. His first full-length collection, Black Sabbatical, was published by Sarabande Books in 2009. Brett has taught at the University of Massachusetts, Missouri State University, and the Central Institute of Buddhist Studies in the Himalayas of northern India. Currently, he lives in Empire, Kentucky, and teaches at Hopkinsville Community College. His country rock ensemble, Brett Eugene Ralph?s Kentucky Chrome Revue, can be heard in seedy dives throughout the South. at Goodbye Blue Monday 1087 Broadway (corner of Dodworth St) Brooklyn, NY 11221-3013 (718) 453-6343 J M Z trains to Myrtle Ave or J train to Kosciusko St ~ Hosted by Amy King and Ana Bo?i?evi? -- HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: http://htmlgiant.com/author- spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a- lot/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From ccooley at overdomain.com Fri Mar 19 18:18:50 2010 From: ccooley at overdomain.com (Crisman Cooley) Date: Fri, 19 Mar 2010 15:18:50 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: A classic for St. Paddy's Day Message-ID: "...veils of morning..." not "mourning" morning begins sequence of times of day: ...veils of morning... ...midnight's all a glimmer, and noon a purple glow, And evening full ... Have a good weekend all. ==== > > I don't have my books handy...is it veils of mourning/morning? > > > Dropping from the veils of the mourning to where the cricket sings; > > > Some pics here: > > http://clipmarks.com/clipmark/D6DE1A10-6538-45AE-BE0B-00EFCE477E59/ > > Finnegan > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anny Ballardini > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Sent: Thu, Mar 18, 2010 2:38 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] A classic for St. Paddy's Day > > > probably one of my favorite poems. Happy Saint Patrick's day, Anny > > > On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 11:40 PM, wrote: > > The Lake Isle Of Innisfree > > I will arise and go now, and go to Innisfree, > And a small cabin build there, of clay and wattles made: > Nine bean-rows will I have there, a hive for the honeybee, > And live alone in the bee-loud glade. > > And I shall have some peace there, for peace comes dropping slow, > Dropping from the veils of the mourning to where the cricket sings; > There midnight's all a glimmer, and noon a purple glow, > And evening full of the linnet's wings. > > I will arise and go now, for always night and day > I hear lake water lapping with low sounds by the shore; > While I stand on the roadway, or on the pavements grey, > I hear it in the deep heart's core. > > > --William Butler Yeats > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sat Mar 20 18:43:25 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 18:43:25 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets Anonymous Message-ID: <8CC9695E2D7779C-2890-28F9B@webmail-m057.sysops.aol.com> The Poet's Twelve Steps We admitted we were powerless over words?that our lives had become unmanageable. Came to believe that a Poetry greater than ourselves could restore us to madness. Made a decision to turn our wiles and our lives over to the care of Chaos as we misuderstand It. Made a haphazard and fearful moral inventory of ourselves. Disavowed to Chaos, to ourselves, and to another human being the inexact nature of our wrongs. Were entirely ready to have Chaos imbue all these defects of character. Humbly asked Chaos to display our shortcomings. Made a list of all readers we had to harm, and became willing to make mayhem to them all. Made direct mayhem to such readers wherever possible, except when to do so would inure them or others. Continued to lose personal inventory and when we were right promptly denied it. Sought through poetry and criticism to improve our conscious contact with Chaos as we understood It, playing only for ignorance of Its Will for us and the poetry to carry that out. Having had a poetic awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to mumble this message to readers, and to misapply these precepts in all our affectations. We admitted we were powerless over words?that our lives had become unmanageable. Came to believe that a Poetry greater than ourselves could restore us to madness. Made a decision to turn our wiles and our lives over to the care of Chaos as we misuderstand It. Made a haphazard and fearful moral inventory of ourselves. Disavowed to Chaos, to ourselves, and to another human being the inexact nature of our wrongs. Were entirely ready to have Chaos imbue all these defects of character. Humbly asked Chaos to display our shortcomings. Made a list of all readers we had to harm, and became willing to make mayhem to them all. Made direct mayhem to such readers wherever possible, except when to do so would inure them or others. Continued to lose personal inventory and when we were right promptly denied it. Sought through poetry and criticism to improve our conscious contact with Chaos as we understood It, playing only for ignorance of Its Will for us and the poetry to carry that out. Having had a poetic awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to mumble this message to readers, and to misapply these precepts in all our affectations. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Sat Mar 20 19:12:57 2010 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 19:12:57 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets Anonymous In-Reply-To: <8CC9695E2D7779C-2890-28F9B@webmail-m057.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC9695E2D7779C-2890-28F9B@webmail-m057.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b1003201612n6859d0b0v1e697b2c2cb554f4@mail.gmail.com> My fave, James: "Made a list of all readers we had to harm, and became willing to make mayhem to them all." ;-) Judy On 20 March 2010 18:43, wrote: > The Poet's Twelve Steps > > We admitted we were powerless over words?that our lives had become > unmanageable. > > Came to believe that a Poetry greater than ourselves could restore us to > madness. > > Made a decision to turn our wiles and our lives over to the care of Chaos > as we misuderstand It. > > Made a haphazard and fearful moral inventory of ourselves. > > Disavowed to Chaos, to ourselves, and to another human being the inexact > nature of our wrongs. > > Were entirely ready to have Chaos imbue all these defects of character. > > Humbly asked Chaos to display our shortcomings. > > Made a list of all readers we had to harm, and became willing to make > mayhem to them all. > > Made direct mayhem to such readers wherever possible, except when to do so > would inure them or others. > > Continued to lose personal inventory and when we were right promptly denied > it. > > Sought through poetry and criticism to improve our conscious contact with > Chaos as we understood It, playing only for ignorance of Its Will for us and > the poetry to carry that out. > > Having had a poetic awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to > mumble this message to readers, and to misapply these precepts in all our > affectations. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ "If I die during a crossword puzzle I am allowed to finish it." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Sat Mar 20 20:07:02 2010 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Sat, 20 Mar 2010 20:07:02 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets Anonymous In-Reply-To: <8CC9695E2D7779C-2890-28F9B@webmail-m057.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC9695E2D7779C-2890-28F9B@webmail-m057.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4BA56326.7000504@opus40.org> This is great. jforjames at aol.com wrote: > The Poet's Twelve Steps > > We admitted we were powerless over words?that our lives had become > unmanageable. > > Came to believe that a Poetry greater than ourselves could restore us > to madness. > > Made a decision to turn our wiles and our lives over to the care of > Chaos as we misuderstand It. > > Made a haphazard and fearful moral inventory of ourselves. > > Disavowed to Chaos, to ourselves, and to another human being the > inexact nature of our wrongs. > > Were entirely ready to have Chaos imbue all these defects of character. > > Humbly asked Chaos to display our shortcomings. > > Made a list of all readers we had to harm, and became willing to make > mayhem to them all. > > Made direct mayhem to such readers wherever possible, except when to > do so would inure them or others. > > Continued to lose personal inventory and when we were right promptly > denied it. > > Sought through poetry and criticism to improve our conscious contact > with Chaos as we understood It, playing only for ignorance of Its Will > for us and the poetry to carry that out. > > Having had a poetic awakening as the result of these steps, we tried > to mumble this message to readers, and to misapply these precepts in > all our affectations. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Mar 21 06:39:02 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 11:39:02 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poets Anonymous In-Reply-To: <8CC9695E2D7779C-2890-28F9B@webmail-m057.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC9695E2D7779C-2890-28F9B@webmail-m057.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003210339t6e17634ana7061dac8e21c279@mail.gmail.com> The affectations are multiform, multifaceted, and multi-unfolding. On Sat, Mar 20, 2010 at 11:43 PM, wrote: > The Poet's Twelve Steps > > We admitted we were powerless over words?that our lives had become > unmanageable. > > Came to believe that a Poetry greater than ourselves could restore us to > madness. > > Made a decision to turn our wiles and our lives over to the care of Chaos > as we misuderstand It. > > Made a haphazard and fearful moral inventory of ourselves. > > Disavowed to Chaos, to ourselves, and to another human being the inexact > nature of our wrongs. > > Were entirely ready to have Chaos imbue all these defects of character. > > Humbly asked Chaos to display our shortcomings. > > Made a list of all readers we had to harm, and became willing to make > mayhem to them all. > > Made direct mayhem to such readers wherever possible, except when to do so > would inure them or others. > > Continued to lose personal inventory and when we were right promptly denied > it. > > Sought through poetry and criticism to improve our conscious contact with > Chaos as we understood It, playing only for ignorance of Its Will for us and > the poetry to carry that out. > > Having had a poetic awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to > mumble this message to readers, and to misapply these precepts in all our > affectations. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Mar 21 08:24:35 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 13:24:35 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] From the Writer's Almanac with a Happy Birthday to BACH ! Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003210524j2e4f0f85t51e69b7a33064f7@mail.gmail.com> Endymion (extract) by John Keats Book I A thing of beauty is a joy for ever: Its loveliness increases, it will never Pass into nothingness; but still will keep A bower quiet for us, and a sleep Full of sweet dreams, and health, and quiet breathing. Therefore, on every morrow, are we wreathing A flowery band to bind us to the earth, Spite of despondence, of the inhuman dearth Of noble natures, of the gloomy days, Of all the unhealthy and o'er-darkened ways Made for our searching: yes, in spite of all, Some shape of beauty moves away the pall >From our dark spirits. "*From* Endymion" by John Keats. Public domain. (buy now) -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sun Mar 21 10:02:46 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun, 21 Mar 2010 15:02:46 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ai Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003210702r143aa11cs523f6297994c4b5d@mail.gmail.com> thanks to Susan Schultz on Facebook, I am forwarding the link to Ai on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ai_%28poet%29 -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Mon Mar 22 09:18:55 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:18:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ai In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71003210702r143aa11cs523f6297994c4b5d@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d71003210702r143aa11cs523f6297994c4b5d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CC97D95BDC641A-FBC-671B@webmail-m013.sysops.aol.com> Sorry to hear about Ai's death. I read a lot of Ai when I was first getting into poetry. Specifically I was interested in her use of persona and dramatic monologue. I once tried to get her to read in Northampton MA...but it fell thru. Another time I was all set to hear her read and the reading was cancelled again. Others told me she had a morbid fear of flying and was notorious for cancelling at the last moment. (But don't take that as gospel.) Anyway I never did get to hear her read in person. There doesn't seem to be an obituary online yet. Here's her faculty page for OSU http://english.okstate.edu/faculty/fac_pages/ai.htm She was fond of those one-word book titles, Cruelty, Sin, Fate, Vice, Dread... Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Sun, Mar 21, 2010 10:02 am Subject: [New-Poetry] Ai thanks to Susan Schultz on Facebook, I am forwarding the link to Ai on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ai_%28poet%29 -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Mon Mar 22 09:33:47 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:33:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Other steps to becoming a poet Message-ID: <8CC97DB6F6E516A-FBC-6A80@webmail-m013.sysops.aol.com> http://www.coppercanyonpress.org/400_opportunities/430_gettingpub/haines.cfm Becoming a Poet: One Step at a Time by John Haines 1. Write when you feel moved to, in response to some inner necessity, or when provoked by something in the outside world. If it is of help, set yourself a working schedule, but do not attempt to force your talent; let it develop at its own pace. You are not entering a competition or a popularity contest. 2. Read and reread the following: Rainer Rilke?s Letters to a Young Poet; Wordsworth?s Preface to Lyrical Ballads; the Letters of John Keats; T.S. Eliot?s Tradition and the Individual Talent; Edwin Muir?s The Estate of Poetry. Texts such as these do not date. 3. Don?t be in a hurry to publish. Take your time, question your motives, and seek to understand the true nature of creative growth. 4. Don?t overemphasize public exposure. Avoid taking part in ?slams,? or if you find them entertaining be sure you are not misled by the public attention. If you read your poems to an audience occasionally, read also a few poems by the old masters and the well known moderns. Better yet: 5. Memorize a few good poems from the English classics as well as from the modern masters?from Wordsworth, Yeats, Eliot, Stevens, etc. Be able to recite them to yourself or to your friends. 6. Now and then show a few of your poems to someone whose judgment you respect. Listen to what he or she might have to say about them, but do not rely too heavily on another?s opinion. Seek out the best poems you can find; put your own work beside them and see where it falls short or in some way. 7. Take note of the number of drafts your poems go through. If you began writing easily and fluently, you may find that in time you will become less easily satisfied and more self-critical. This is called growth. 8. Try working in different forms. Don?t be satisfied to write in an acceptable contemporary ?free? verse. Recall Eliot: ?No verse is free for the (individual) who wants to do a good job.? 9. Don?t be afraid of influences. Seek them out, and be willing to submit yourself for the time being to a stronger talent from whom you might learn. When you have absorbed the lessons, you may emerge a better writer. Remain open, and read widely. 10. From time to time send a few of your poems to magazines. Whether they are rejected or accepted, compare them to some of the work being published; try to decide in what ways your own may differ in style or idiom, but avoid trying to write in what appears to be an acceptable mode. 11. When you have been writing for several years, have published a few poems, consider publishing a small collection, a ?chapbook.? This can be an exciting moment, especially if your poems attract some attention. But don?t let it go to your head, and beware of becoming a celebrity, if only briefly. 12. Do not rely on grants, prizes, or fellowships. Consider instead the many kinds of worthwhile work outside literature. If university life attracts you, consider the many fields of study in which you might find a satisfaction, earn a degree, and teach. 13. Remain humble. Always return to the masters and try to learn from them. Consider how many ?names? have disappeared, how few poets survive beyond their own time. 14. Finally, consider the following, written many years ago by William Carlos Williams to a young poet: ??read, read, read, all the examples of verse you admire, and some you do not admire?but don?t expect quick success?keep writing, and use your head and your eyes and concentrate just as much as you can into every word and clause and sentence. The rest is up to you.? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Mar 22 10:09:42 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 10:09:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ai In-Reply-To: <8CC97D95BDC641A-FBC-671B@webmail-m013.sysops.aol.com> References: <4b65c2d71003210702r143aa11cs523f6297994c4b5d@mail.gmail.com> <8CC97D95BDC641A-FBC-671B@webmail-m013.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Oh my god, I hadn't followed the thread, didn't know she had died. She couldn't have been very old, no older than I am, I think. I heard her read several times, and I sponsored a reading of hers in Tucson when I lived there. She arrived just in time after a much-delayed flight and was in a lousy mood, but she blossomed in front of the audience and gave a great reading. A fine poet. Best, Mark At 09:18 AM 3/22/2010, you wrote: >Sorry to hear about Ai's death. I read a lot of >Ai when I was first getting into poetry. >Specifically I was interested in her use of persona and dramatic monologue. > >I once tried to get her to read in Northampton >MA...but it fell thru. Another time >I was all set to hear her read and the reading >was cancelled again. Others told me she had >a morbid fear of flying and was notorious for >cancelling at the last moment. (But don't take >that as gospel.) Anyway I never did get to hear her read in person. > >There doesn't seem to be an obituary online yet. >Here's her faculty page for OSU >http://english.okstate.edu/faculty/fac_pages/ai.htm >She was fond of those one-word book titles, Cruelty, Sin, Fate, Vice, Dread... >Finnegan > > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Anny Ballardini >To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >&,Views >Sent: Sun, Mar 21, 2010 10:02 am >Subject: [New-Poetry] Ai > >thanks to Susan Schultz on Facebook, I am >forwarding the link to Ai on Wikipedia: >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ai_%28poet%29 > >-- >Anny Ballardini >http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! >Friedrich Nietzsche > >?? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?? >Giovenale > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Mon Mar 22 11:00:43 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:00:43 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ai In-Reply-To: References: <4b65c2d71003210702r143aa11cs523f6297994c4b5d@mail.gmail.com><8CC97D95BDC641A-FBC-671B@webmail-m013.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC97E7942B2603-FBC-8294@webmail-m013.sysops.aol.com> Some related blog posts... http://blog.bestamericanpoetry.com/the_best_american_poetry/2010/03/in-memoriam-to-ai-1947-2010-by-jerry-wiliams-.html http://www.oliverdelapaz.com/blog/ http://www.tayarijones.com/blog/archives/2010/03/thanking_ai.html -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Mon, Mar 22, 2010 10:09 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Ai Oh my god, I hadn't followed the thread, didn't know she had died. She couldn't have been very old, no older than I am, I think. I heard her read several times, and I sponsored a reading of hers in Tucson when I lived there. She arrived just in time after a much-delayed flight and was in a lousy mood, but she blossomed in front of the audience and gave a great reading. A fine poet. Best, Mark At 09:18 AM 3/22/2010, you wrote: Sorry to hear about Ai's death. I read a lot of Ai when I was first getting into poetry. Specifically I was interested in her use of persona and dramatic monologue. I once tried to get her to read in Northampton MA...but it fell thru. Another time I was all set to hear her read and the reading was cancelled again. Others told me she had a morbid fear of flying and was notorious for cancelling at the last moment. (But don't take that as gospel.) Anyway I never did get to hear her read in person. There doesn't seem to be an obituary online yet. Here's her faculty page for OSU http://english.okstate.edu/faculty/fac_pages/ai.htm She was fond of those one-word book titles, Cruelty, Sin, Fate, Vice, Dread... Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Sun, Mar 21, 2010 10:02 am Subject: [New-Poetry] Ai thanks to Susan Schultz on Facebook, I am forwarding the link to Ai on Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ai_%28poet%29 -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ?? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ?? Giovenale _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james at gmail.com Mon Mar 22 11:30:27 2010 From: cervantes.james at gmail.com (James Cervantes) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 09:30:27 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ai In-Reply-To: <8CC97D95BDC641A-FBC-671B@webmail-m013.sysops.aol.com> References: <4b65c2d71003210702r143aa11cs523f6297994c4b5d@mail.gmail.com> <8CC97D95BDC641A-FBC-671B@webmail-m013.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <648208b61003220830o2550d933vca47fc8b8fa20fe1@mail.gmail.com> Florence was a friend of mine during the Arizona days. She had a reputation for being difficult, but I never found her to be that way. She was always gracious and generous with her time. Yes, she did dislike flying and for a while insisted on train reservations if you wanted her to give a reading. She did something new in poetry and has had many imitators since. - Jim On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 7:18 AM, wrote: > Sorry to hear about Ai's death. I read a lot of Ai when I was first getting > into poetry. > Specifically I was interested in her use of persona and dramatic monologue. > > > I once tried to get her to read in Northampton MA...but it fell thru. > Another time > I was all set to hear her read and the reading was cancelled again. Others > told me she had > a morbid fear of flying and was notorious for cancelling at the last > moment. (But don't take > that as gospel.) Anyway I never did get to hear her read in person. > > There doesn't seem to be an obituary online yet. Here's her faculty page > for OSU > http://english.okstate.edu/faculty/fac_pages/ai.htm > She was fond of those one-word book titles, Cruelty, Sin, Fate, Vice, > Dread... > Finnegan > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anny Ballardini > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Sent: Sun, Mar 21, 2010 10:02 am > Subject: [New-Poetry] Ai > > thanks to Susan Schultz on Facebook, I am forwarding the link to Ai on > Wikipedia: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ai_%28poet%29 > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Mon Mar 22 11:50:47 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 11:50:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Olson of Worcester Message-ID: <8CC97EE9324D67C-FBC-8F2D@webmail-m013.sysops.aol.com> http://www.telegram.com/article/20100321/NEWS/3210358/1116 Charles Olson was a complicated man who wrote complicated poetry. The Worcester native was also a big man ? 6 feet 8 inches ? who still casts quite a shadow and presence in 2010, his centennial year. A ?Charles Olson Centenary Celebration? being held in Worcester this week will draw a number of guest poets and scholars, and include performances, workshops, a symposium, and even the screening of a film about Olson?s life, ?Polis Is This,? narrated by John Malkovich. Conference Schedule on this page: http://wcpa.homestead.com/CHARLES_OLSON.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Mar 22 12:22:04 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 17:22:04 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] poetry blogs Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003220922w48fc0d14yccba0e76570ddaf1@mail.gmail.com> I am very grateful to Emma Taylor (whom I do not know) for having included me in the following and for having notified me: http://www.accreditedonlinecolleges.com/blog/2010/100-best-poetry-blogs/ a special honor, and a graceful surprise, Anny -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Mar 22 13:07:14 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 18:07:14 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Olson of Worcester In-Reply-To: <8CC97EE9324D67C-FBC-8F2D@webmail-m013.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC97EE9324D67C-FBC-8F2D@webmail-m013.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003221007gfe1e026v7a8d80b0c6348b02@mail.gmail.com> Oh yes, *Polis Is This* was around on the net, a great accomplishment. Also Hemingway was a big man! Wasn't it Pound who asked him to be his boxing trainer at a time in Paris? On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 4:50 PM, wrote: > http://www.telegram.com/article/20100321/NEWS/3210358/1116 > Charles Olson was a complicated man who wrote complicated poetry. > > The Worcester native was also a big man ? 6 feet 8 inches ? who still casts > quite a shadow and presence in 2010, his centennial year. A ?Charles Olson > Centenary Celebration? being held in Worcester this week will draw a number > of guest poets and scholars, and include performances, workshops, a > symposium, and even the screening of a film about Olson?s life, ?Polis Is > This,? narrated by John Malkovich. > > Conference Schedule on this page: > http://wcpa.homestead.com/CHARLES_OLSON.html > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Mon Mar 22 13:47:39 2010 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 13:47:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Olson of Worcester In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71003221007gfe1e026v7a8d80b0c6348b02@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CC97EE9324D67C-FBC-8F2D@webmail-m013.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d71003221007gfe1e026v7a8d80b0c6348b02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: More likely it was Fitzgerald, though Hemingway could have taken lessons from Morley Callaghan. Hal follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest collection -- http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 1:07 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Oh yes, *Polis Is This* was around on the net, a great accomplishment. > Also Hemingway was a big man! Wasn't it Pound who asked him to be his > boxing trainer at a time in Paris? > > > On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 4:50 PM, wrote: > >> http://www.telegram.com/article/20100321/NEWS/3210358/1116 >> Charles Olson was a complicated man who wrote complicated poetry. >> >> The Worcester native was also a big man ? 6 feet 8 inches ? who still >> casts quite a shadow and presence in 2010, his centennial year. A ?Charles >> Olson Centenary Celebration? being held in Worcester this week will draw a >> number of guest poets and scholars, and include performances, workshops, a >> symposium, and even the screening of a film about Olson?s life, ?Polis Is >> This,? narrated by John Malkovich. >> >> Conference Schedule on this page: >> http://wcpa.homestead.com/CHARLES_OLSON.html >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Mar 22 14:15:39 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 14:15:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Olson of Worcester In-Reply-To: References: <8CC97EE9324D67C-FBC-8F2D@webmail-m013.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d71003221007gfe1e026v7a8d80b0c6348b02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Took lessons from Two-Fisted River, who was also big. Then there's the oft-told tale of Papa decking Stevens. At 01:47 PM 3/22/2010, you wrote: >More likely it was Fitzgerald, though Hemingway could have taken >lessons from Morley Callaghan. > >Hal > >follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest >collection -- > >http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions > >Halvard Johnson >================ >halvard at gmail.com >http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > >On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 1:07 PM, Anny Ballardini ><anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote: >Oh yes, Polis Is This was around on the net, a great accomplishment. >Also Hemingway was a big man! Wasn't it Pound >who asked him to be his boxing trainer at a time in Paris? > > >On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 4:50 PM, ><jforjames at aol.com> wrote: >http://www.telegram.com/article/20100321/NEWS/3210358/1116 >Charles Olson was a complicated man who wrote complicated poetry. > >The Worcester native was also a big man ? 6 feet >8 inches ? who still casts quite a shadow and >presence in 2010, his centennial year. A >?Charles Olson Centenary Celebration? being held >in Worcester this week will draw a number of >guest poets and scholars, and include >performances, workshops, a symposium, and even >the screening of a film about Olson?s life, >?Polis Is This,? narrated by John Malkovich. > >Conference Schedule on this page: >http://wcpa.homestead.com/CHARLES_OLSON.html > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > >-- >Anny Ballardini >http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! >Friedrich Nietzsche > >? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >Giovenale > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Mar 22 14:46:00 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 19:46:00 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Olson of Worcester In-Reply-To: References: <8CC97EE9324D67C-FBC-8F2D@webmail-m013.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d71003221007gfe1e026v7a8d80b0c6348b02@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003221146t6769f5ces5f08e99e45fe1354@mail.gmail.com> Hi Hal, I remember the Fitzgerald story, but I think I am right, that Pound wanted to build up some muscles, it wasn't a great success... On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 6:47 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > More likely it was Fitzgerald, though Hemingway could have taken > lessons from Morley Callaghan. > > Hal > > follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest > collection -- > > http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 1:07 PM, Anny Ballardini < > anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Oh yes, *Polis Is This* was around on the net, a great accomplishment. >> Also Hemingway was a big man! Wasn't it Pound who asked him to be his >> boxing trainer at a time in Paris? >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 4:50 PM, wrote: >> >>> http://www.telegram.com/article/20100321/NEWS/3210358/1116 >>> Charles Olson was a complicated man who wrote complicated poetry. >>> >>> The Worcester native was also a big man ? 6 feet 8 inches ? who still >>> casts quite a shadow and presence in 2010, his centennial year. A ?Charles >>> Olson Centenary Celebration? being held in Worcester this week will draw a >>> number of guest poets and scholars, and include performances, workshops, a >>> symposium, and even the screening of a film about Olson?s life, ?Polis Is >>> This,? narrated by John Malkovich. >>> >>> Conference Schedule on this page: >>> http://wcpa.homestead.com/CHARLES_OLSON.html >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Anny Ballardini >> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >> star! >> Friedrich Nietzsche >> >> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >> Giovenale >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Mon Mar 22 15:17:33 2010 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 15:17:33 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Olson of Worcester In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71003221146t6769f5ces5f08e99e45fe1354@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CC97EE9324D67C-FBC-8F2D@webmail-m013.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d71003221007gfe1e026v7a8d80b0c6348b02@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71003221146t6769f5ces5f08e99e45fe1354@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Pound did do some rounds with Hemingway in Paris, I believe. Hal follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest collection -- http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 2:46 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Hi Hal, > > I remember the Fitzgerald story, but I think I am right, that Pound wanted > to build up some muscles, it wasn't a great success... > > > > On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 6:47 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > >> More likely it was Fitzgerald, though Hemingway could have taken >> lessons from Morley Callaghan. >> >> Hal >> >> follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest >> collection -- >> >> http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> halvard at gmail.com >> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 1:07 PM, Anny Ballardini < >> anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>> Oh yes, *Polis Is This* was around on the net, a great accomplishment. >>> Also Hemingway was a big man! Wasn't it Pound who asked him to be his >>> boxing trainer at a time in Paris? >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 4:50 PM, wrote: >>> >>>> http://www.telegram.com/article/20100321/NEWS/3210358/1116 >>>> Charles Olson was a complicated man who wrote complicated poetry. >>>> >>>> The Worcester native was also a big man ? 6 feet 8 inches ? who still >>>> casts quite a shadow and presence in 2010, his centennial year. A ?Charles >>>> Olson Centenary Celebration? being held in Worcester this week will draw a >>>> number of guest poets and scholars, and include performances, workshops, a >>>> symposium, and even the screening of a film about Olson?s life, ?Polis Is >>>> This,? narrated by John Malkovich. >>>> >>>> Conference Schedule on this page: >>>> http://wcpa.homestead.com/CHARLES_OLSON.html >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Anny Ballardini >>> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >>> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >>> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >>> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >>> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >>> star! >>> Friedrich Nietzsche >>> >>> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >>> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >>> Giovenale >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Mar 22 16:46:23 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 16:46:23 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Boasting rights Message-ID: This from the March issue of Library Journal. The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry. ed. & tr. by Mark Weiss. U.S.: Univ. of California Pr. 2009. 624p. ISBN 978-0-520-25894-5. pap. $29.95. POETRY Cuba?s poets have always found their place within the constructs of history, yet we remain na?ve about these The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry. brilliant writers and the works that they have beautifully created, until now. From the depths of the Cuban psyche, editor and translator Weiss delicately gathers six decades of Cuban poetry in this bilingual anthology. This literary feat, an act of opposition to censorship, inevitably presents the works of poets who have had to fight for their independence. While many Cuban writers were forced into exile, their literature somehow flourished on the island and across the sea, becoming a force in the midst of war and communism. Despite ill-timed acts of bigotry and the crude editing imposed by the Cuban government, they prevailed, candidly sharing their messages at a time when homosexuality was outlawed and antirevolutionary opinions were suppressed. Represented within this book are poets from the mid-1900s to the present, such as Nicol?s Guill?n, Cintio Vitier, Nancy Morej?n, and many others. This is a prized collection of Cuban poetry. Recommended for all libraries and bookstores.?Rick Villalobos, Villa Park P.L., IL Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Mon Mar 22 16:54:42 2010 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 16:54:42 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Boasting rights In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BA7D912.700@opus40.org> This is great. Congrats, Mark. Mark Weiss wrote: > This from the March issue of Library Journal. > > > > The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry. > ed. & tr. by Mark Weiss. U.S.: Univ. of California Pr. 2009. 624p. > ISBN 978-0-520-25894-5. pap. $29.95. POETRY > > Cuba?s poets have always found their place within the constructs of > history, yet we remain na?ve about these The Whole Island: Six Decades > of Cuban Poetry.brilliant writers and the works that they have > beautifully created, until now. From the depths of the Cuban psyche, > editor and translator Weiss delicately gathers six decades of Cuban > poetry in this bilingual anthology. This literary feat, an act of > opposition to censorship, inevitably presents the works of poets who > have had to fight for their independence. While many Cuban writers > were forced into exile, their literature somehow flourished on the > island and across the sea, becoming a force in the midst of war and > communism. Despite ill-timed acts of bigotry and the crude editing > imposed by the Cuban government, they prevailed, candidly sharing > their messages at a time when homosexuality was outlawed and > antirevolutionary opinions were suppressed. Represented within this > book are poets from the mid-1900s to the present, such as Nicol?s > Guill?n, Cintio Vitier, Nancy Morej?n, and many others. This is a > prized collection of Cuban poetry. Recommended for all libraries and > bookstores.?/Rick Villalobos, Villa Park P.L., IL > > / > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University > of California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's /Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry/ has a bilingual anthology so > effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United > States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in > English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in /The Nation/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Mar 22 17:21:06 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 22:21:06 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Boasting rights In-Reply-To: <4BA7D912.700@opus40.org> References: <4BA7D912.700@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003221421n7c4df6d8j88e3d6b3f9c57462@mail.gmail.com> Yes, it is doing great, congratulations again, Anny On Mon, Mar 22, 2010 at 9:54 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > This is great. Congrats, Mark. > > Mark Weiss wrote: > >> This from the March issue of Library Journal. >> >> >> >> The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry. >> ed. & tr. by Mark Weiss. U.S.: Univ. of California Pr. 2009. 624p. ISBN >> 978-0-520-25894-5. pap. $29.95. POETRY >> >> Cuba?s poets have always found their place within the constructs of >> history, yet we remain na?ve about these The Whole Island: Six Decades of >> Cuban Poetry.brilliant writers and the works that they have beautifully >> created, until now. From the depths of the Cuban psyche, editor and >> translator Weiss delicately gathers six decades of Cuban poetry in this >> bilingual anthology. This literary feat, an act of opposition to censorship, >> inevitably presents the works of poets who have had to fight for their >> independence. While many Cuban writers were forced into exile, their >> literature somehow flourished on the island and across the sea, becoming a >> force in the midst of war and communism. Despite ill-timed acts of bigotry >> and the crude editing imposed by the Cuban government, they prevailed, >> candidly sharing their messages at a time when homosexuality was outlawed >> and antirevolutionary opinions were suppressed. Represented within this book >> are poets from the mid-1900s to the present, such as Nicol?s Guill?n, Cintio >> Vitier, Nancy Morej?n, and many others. This is a prized collection of Cuban >> poetry. Recommended for all libraries and bookstores.?/Rick Villalobos, >> Villa Park P.L., IL >> >> >> / >> >> Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of >> California Press). >> http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's /Random House Book of >> Twentieth Century French Poetry/ has a bilingual anthology so effectively >> broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also >> created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing >> else like it." John Palattella in /The Nation/ >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Mon Mar 22 17:25:55 2010 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 17:25:55 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Boasting rights In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7db1d01b1003221425qc6d5869o60a104317311c4da@mail.gmail.com> You do, indeed, have boasting rights, Mark. It is a thoroughly splendid anthology. Best, Judy On 22 March 2010 16:46, Mark Weiss wrote: > This from the March issue of Library Journal. > > > > The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry. > ed. & tr. by Mark Weiss. U.S.: Univ. of California Pr. 2009. 624p. ISBN > 978-0-520-25894-5. pap. $29.95. POETRY > > Cuba?s poets have always found their place within the constructs of > history, yet we remain na?ve about these [image: The Whole Island: Six > Decades of Cuban Poetry.]brilliant writers and the works that they have > beautifully created, until now. From the depths of the Cuban psyche, editor > and translator Weiss delicately gathers six decades of Cuban poetry in this > bilingual anthology. This literary feat, an act of opposition to censorship, > inevitably presents the works of poets who have had to fight for their > independence. While many Cuban writers were forced into exile, their > literature somehow flourished on the island and across the sea, becoming a > force in the midst of war and communism. Despite ill-timed acts of bigotry > and the crude editing imposed by the Cuban government, they prevailed, > candidly sharing their messages at a time when homosexuality was outlawed > and antirevolutionary opinions were suppressed. Represented within this book > are poets from the mid-1900s to the present, such as Nicol?s Guill?n, Cintio > Vitier, Nancy Morej?n, and many others. This is a prized collection of Cuban > poetry. Recommended for all libraries and bookstores.?*Rick Villalobos, > Villa Park P.L., IL > > * > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ "If I die during a crossword puzzle I am allowed to finish it." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Mon Mar 22 18:46:55 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 15:46:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Thinking about the Gurlesque today... Message-ID: <429448.86267.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> So school me; I'm asking for it: http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ Best, Amy _______ HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Mon Mar 22 20:32:01 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 20:32:01 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Boasting rights In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b1003221425qc6d5869o60a104317311c4da@mail.gmail.com> References: <7db1d01b1003221425qc6d5869o60a104317311c4da@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CC98376365517E-1670-66B6@webmail-m018.sysops.aol.com> Well deserved, Mark. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Mon Mar 22 20:34:09 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 20:34:09 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] early Ai poem Message-ID: <8CC9837AFB0636B-1670-671B@webmail-m018.sysops.aol.com> The Kid My sister rubs the doll?s face in mud, then climbs through the truck window. She ignores me as I walk around it, hitting the flat tires with an iron rod The old man yells for me to help hitch the team, but I keep walking around the truck, hitting harder, until mother calls. I pick up a rock and throw it at the kitchen window, but it falls short. The old man?s voice bounces off the air like a ball I can?t lift my leg over. I stand beside him, waiting, but he doesn?t look up and I squeeze the rod, raise it, his skull splits open. Mother runs towards us. I stand still, get her across the spine as she bends over him. I drop the rod and take the rifle from the house. Roses are red, violets are blue, one bullet for the black horse, two for the brown. They?re down quick. I spit, my tongue?s bloody; I?ve bitten it. I laugh, remember the one out back. I catch her climbing from the truck, shoot. The doll lands on the ground with her. I pick it up, rock it in my arms. Yeah. I?m Jack, Hogarth?s son. I?m nimble, I?m quick. ?Ai, Killing Floor (Houghton Mifflin, 1979) n.b.: Stamp on flyleaf says I bought book at Trader?s Bookstore, Chesterfield Shopping Center, Missouri. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Mon Mar 22 20:39:20 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2010 20:39:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: early Ai poem In-Reply-To: <8CC9837AFB0636B-1670-671B@webmail-m018.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC9837AFB0636B-1670-671B@webmail-m018.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC983868E4EC79-1670-6806@webmail-m018.sysops.aol.com> Stanza break after "leg over." -----Original Message----- From: jforjames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Mon, Mar 22, 2010 8:34 pm Subject: early Ai poem The Kid My sister rubs the doll?s face in mud, then climbs through the truck window. She ignores me as I walk around it, hitting the flat tires with an iron rod The old man yells for me to help hitch the team, but I keep walking around the truck, hitting harder, until mother calls. I pick up a rock and throw it at the kitchen window, but it falls short. The old man?s voice bounces off the air like a ball I can?t lift my leg over. I stand beside him, waiting, but he doesn?t look up and I squeeze the rod, raise it, his skull splits open. Mother runs towards us. I stand still, get her across the spine as she bends over him. I drop the rod and take the rifle from the house. Roses are red, violets are blue, one bullet for the black horse, two for the brown. They?re down quick. I spit, my tongue?s bloody; I?ve bitten it. I laugh, remember the one out back. I catch her climbing from the truck, shoot. The doll lands on the ground with her. I pick it up, rock it in my arms. Yeah. I?m Jack, Hogarth?s son. I?m nimble, I?m quick. ?Ai, Killing Floor (Houghton Mifflin, 1979) n.b.: Stamp on flyleaf says I bought book at Trader?s Bookstore, Chesterfield Shopping Center, Missouri. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Mar 23 10:31:03 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 07:31:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] This Friday, March 26th @ 7 p.m. -- Jessica Bozek, Kate Braid, Melissa Broder, Jackie Clark, Cate Marvin & Brett Eugene Ralph!!! Message-ID: <437693.61107.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> March Madness is a good kind of crazy: good to the last drop! Witness the miracle this Friday. We'll take care of those clouds for you. Friday, March 26th @ 7 p.m -- Goodbye Blue Monday [http://www.goodbyeblue.com/wordpress/] With: Jessica Bozek, Kate Braid, Melissa Broder, Jackie Clark, Cate Marvin & Brett Eugene Ralph! Jessica Bozek is the author of The Bodyfeel Lexicon (Switchback Books) and several chapbooks. Recent poems appear in Action, Yes, Artifice, Fairy Tale Review, P-QUEUE, and Womb. Jessica runs Small Animal Project (smallanimalproject.com), a reading series and web-text experiment based in Cambridge, MA. ~ Kate Braid is a poet, essayist, biographer, and teacher. Braid?s first book, Covering Rough Ground, was about her experience as a carpenter, and won the Pat Lowther Award for best book of poems by a Canadian woman. She is also the author of To This Cedar Fountain, Inward to the Bones: Georgia O?Keefe?s Journey with Emily Carr, A Well-Mannered Storm: The Glenn Gould Poems, and a co-editor, Sandy Shreve, of In Fine Form, the first anthology of Canadian form poetry. A second book of poems about her experiences in construction, Turning Left to the Ladies, was published by Palimpsest in June 2009. She has also written three books of non-fiction and is currently working on a memoir of her fifteen years as a carpenter. ~ Melissa Broder is the author of WHEN YOU SAY ONE THING BUT MEAN YOUR MOTHER (Ampersand Books, February 2010). She is the curator of the Polestar Poetry Series and the Chief Editor of La Petite Zine. Broder received her BA from Tufts University and is currently in the MFA program at CCNY. She is the winner of the Jerome Lowell Dejur Award and the Stark Prize for Poetry. By day, she works as a literary publicist. Her poems have appeared in many journals, including: Opium, Shampoo, Conte and The Del Sol Review. ~ Jackie Clark is currently co-editor-in-chief for LIT magazine. She also curates Poets off Poetry at coldfrontmag.com, where poets write about music. Her chapbook Office Work is forthcoming from Greying Ghost Press. She lives in Jersey City. ~ Cate Marvin?s first book, World?s Tallest Disaster, was chosen by Robert Pinksy for the 2000 Kathryn A. Morton Prize and published by Sarabande Books in 2001. In 2002, she received the Kate Tufts Discovery Prize. Her poems have appeared in The New England Review, Poetry, The Kenyon Review, Fence, The Paris Review, The Cincinnati Review, Slate, Verse, Boston Review, and Ninth Letter. She is co-editor with poet Michael Dumanis of the anthology Legitimate Dangers: American Poets of the New Century (Sarabande Books, 2006). Her second book of poems, Fragment of the Head of a Queen, was published by Sarabande in August 2007. A recent Whiting Award recipient and 2007 NYFA Gregory Millard Fellow, she teaches poetry writing in Lesley University?s Low-Residency M.F.A. Program and is an associate professor in creative writing at the College of Staten Island, City University of New York. ~ Brett Eugene Ralph spent the better part of his youth in Louisville, Kentucky, playing football and singing in punk rock bands. His work has appeared in journals such as Conduit, Mudfish, Willow Springs, and The American Poetry Review; it has been anthologized in The McSweeney?s Book of Poets Picking Poets and The Stiffest of the Corpse: An Exquisite Corpse Reader. His first full-length collection, Black Sabbatical, was published by Sarabande Books in 2009. Brett has taught at the University of Massachusetts, Missouri State University, and the Central Institute of Buddhist Studies in the Himalayas of northern India. Currently, he lives in Empire, Kentucky, and teaches at Hopkinsville Community College. His country rock ensemble, Brett Eugene Ralph?s Kentucky Chrome Revue, can be heard in seedy dives throughout the South. at Goodbye Blue Monday 1087 Broadway (corner of Dodworth St) Brooklyn, NY 11221-3013 http://www.goodbyeblue.com/wordpress/ J M Z trains to Myrtle Ave or J train to Kosciusko St ~ Hosted by Amy King and Ana Bo?i?evi? _______ THE GURLESQUE - NOT ENOUGH GRRRL? http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Tue Mar 23 14:26:48 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 11:26:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Ai from the Poetry Foundation Message-ID: <765714.14602.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Via Tisa Bryant: http://www.poetryfoundation.org/archive/poet.html?id=80637 Still no major coverage but something... Best, Amy _______ HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ THE GURLESQUE - NOT ENOUGH GRRRL? http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Tue Mar 23 14:29:51 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 14:29:51 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Ai from the Poetry Foundation In-Reply-To: <765714.14602.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <765714.14602.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: She was the only one of her kind, and attention only goes to members of whatever club. An often wonderful poet, provocative as they come. Best, Mark At 02:26 PM 3/23/2010, you wrote: >Via Tisa Bryant: > >http://www.poetryfoundation.org/archive/poet.html?id=80637 > >Still no major coverage but something... > >Best, > >Amy > > > >_______ > >HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: > >http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ > >THE GURLESQUE - NOT ENOUGH GRRRL? > >http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From acgold01 at louisville.edu Tue Mar 23 15:22:32 2010 From: acgold01 at louisville.edu (Alan C Golding) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 15:22:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Creeley book Message-ID: <4BA8DCB6.AC48.0004.0@gwise.louisville.edu> Something of possible interest to list members . . . This month the University of Iowa Press is proud to present our newest addition to the Contemporary North American Poetry Series, edited by Alan Golding, Lynn Keller, and Adalaide Morris. FORM, POWER, AND PERSON IN ROBERT CREELEY'S LIFE AND WORK edited by Stephen Fredman and Steve McCaffery "In this friendly and excellent volume, each essay makes a particularized, rather than a paradigmatic, reading of aspects of Robert Creeley's work. Such particularity mirrors Creeley's 'occasion' in the 'common,' and the essays move through many of the poet's institutional, personal, and compositional contexts focusing on matters of lyric and seriality, gender and collaboration, the erotic and the epistolary, and more. Each essay analyzes astutely, and the volume is tremendously useful as a resource and guide for future Creeley studies."--Lisa Samuels, author, The Invention of Culture and Tomorrowland "Reading this volume, you can't help but picture its first dramatic staging, a blizzard-bound Buffalo night when some of our smartest and most original contemporary poets and critics improvised a conference in a hotel room that, against all odds and general conditions, retained its light and heat. These essays, marked by their own heat and often by a dazzling, dilative light, delineate--'equel remir contral lum de la lampa'--the incomparable shapeliness of the work of Robert Creeley, a signal poet whose influence on yet another generation of young writers is clearly surgent. Form, Power, and Person in Robert Creeley's Life and Work invigorates our thinking not only about Creeley's significance, but also about what poetry is and does. For anyone who, like Creeley, can claim to be 'frankly and selfishly interested in the word,' this book is a site of memorable delight."--Forrest Gander Further details at the following link: http://uipress.uiowa.edu/books/2010-spring/fredman.htm From junction at earthlink.net Tue Mar 23 15:28:56 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 15:28:56 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Creeley book In-Reply-To: <4BA8DCB6.AC48.0004.0@gwise.louisville.edu> References: <4BA8DCB6.AC48.0004.0@gwise.louisville.edu> Message-ID: Oh god, there's a Creeley industry. Poor Bob! At 03:22 PM 3/23/2010, you wrote: >Something of possible interest to list members . . . > >This month the University of Iowa Press is proud to present our >newest addition to the Contemporary North American Poetry Series, >edited by Alan Golding, Lynn Keller, and Adalaide Morris. > >FORM, POWER, AND PERSON IN ROBERT CREELEY'S LIFE AND WORK >edited by Stephen Fredman and Steve McCaffery > >"In this friendly and excellent volume, each essay makes a >particularized, rather than a paradigmatic, reading of aspects of >Robert Creeley's work. Such particularity mirrors Creeley's >'occasion' in the 'common,' and the essays move through many of the >poet's institutional, personal, and compositional contexts focusing >on matters of lyric and seriality, gender and collaboration, the >erotic and the epistolary, and more. Each essay analyzes astutely, >and the volume is tremendously useful as a resource and guide for >future Creeley studies."--Lisa Samuels, author, The Invention of >Culture and Tomorrowland > >"Reading this volume, you can't help but picture its first dramatic >staging, a blizzard-bound Buffalo night when some of our smartest >and most original contemporary poets and critics improvised a >conference in a hotel room that, against all odds and general >conditions, retained its light and heat. These essays, marked by >their own heat and often by a dazzling, dilative light, >delineate--'equel remir contral lum de la lampa'--the incomparable >shapeliness of the work of Robert Creeley, a signal poet whose >influence on yet another generation of young writers is clearly >surgent. Form, Power, and Person in Robert Creeley's Life and Work >invigorates our >thinking not only about Creeley's significance, but also about what >poetry is and does. For anyone who, like Creeley, can claim to be >'frankly and selfishly interested in the word,' this book is a site >of memorable delight."--Forrest Gander > >Further details at the following link: > >http://uipress.uiowa.edu/books/2010-spring/fredman.htm > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Tue Mar 23 16:50:07 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 21:50:07 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] New Creeley book In-Reply-To: References: <4BA8DCB6.AC48.0004.0@gwise.louisville.edu> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003231350n749203e7i3b3330e6250fbbdd@mail.gmail.com> Thank you for forwarding the link, I am very interested in this book! Anny On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 8:28 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Oh god, there's a Creeley industry. Poor Bob! > > > At 03:22 PM 3/23/2010, you wrote: > > Something of possible interest to list members . . . > > This month the University of Iowa Press is proud to present our newest > addition to the Contemporary North American Poetry Series, edited by Alan > Golding, Lynn Keller, and Adalaide Morris. > > FORM, POWER, AND PERSON IN ROBERT CREELEY'S LIFE AND WORK > edited by Stephen Fredman and Steve McCaffery > > "In this friendly and excellent volume, each essay makes a particularized, > rather than a paradigmatic, reading of aspects of Robert Creeley's work. > Such particularity mirrors Creeley's 'occasion' in the 'common,' and the > essays move through many of the poet's institutional, personal, and > compositional contexts focusing on matters of lyric and seriality, gender > and collaboration, the erotic and the epistolary, and more. Each essay > analyzes astutely, and the volume is tremendously useful as a resource and > guide for future Creeley studies."--Lisa Samuels, author, The Invention of > Culture and Tomorrowland > > "Reading this volume, you can't help but picture its first dramatic > staging, a blizzard-bound Buffalo night when some of our smartest and most > original contemporary poets and critics improvised a conference in a hotel > room that, against all odds and general conditions, retained its light and > heat. These essays, marked by their own heat and often by a dazzling, > dilative light, delineate--'equel remir contral lum de la lampa'--the > incomparable shapeliness of the work of Robert Creeley, a signal poet whose > influence on yet another generation of young writers is clearly surgent. > Form, Power, and Person in Robert Creeley's Life and Work invigorates our > thinking not only about Creeley's significance, but also about what poetry > is and does. For anyone who, like Creeley, can claim to be 'frankly and > selfishly interested in the word,' this book is a site of memorable > delight."--Forrest Gander > > Further details at the following link: > > http://uipress.uiowa.edu/books/2010-spring/fredman.htm > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bircumplus at yahoo.co.uk Wed Mar 24 04:06:06 2010 From: bircumplus at yahoo.co.uk (David Bircumshaw) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 01:06:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] New Creeley book In-Reply-To: References: <4BA8DCB6.AC48.0004.0@gwise.louisville.edu> Message-ID: <788743.36487.qm@web28510.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Bound to have happened, Mark. I think poetry (in Anglophonica at least) is rapidly approaching that condition whereby success is the ultimate guarantee of failure. ?David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com ________________________________ From: Mark Weiss To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Tue, 23 March, 2010 19:28:56 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] New Creeley book Oh god, there's a Creeley industry. Poor Bob! At 03:22 PM 3/23/2010, you wrote: Something of possible interest to list members . . . > >This month the University of Iowa Press is proud to present our newest addition to the Contemporary North American Poetry Series, edited by Alan Golding, Lynn Keller, and Adalaide Morris. > >FORM, POWER, AND PERSON IN ROBERT CREELEY'S LIFE AND WORK >edited by Stephen Fredman and Steve McCaffery > >"In this friendly and excellent volume, each essay makes a particularized, rather than a paradigmatic, reading of aspects of Robert Creeley's work. Such particularity mirrors Creeley's 'occasion' in the 'common,' and the essays move through many of the poet's institutional, personal, and compositional contexts focusing on matters of? lyric and seriality, gender and collaboration, the erotic and the epistolary, and more. Each essay analyzes astutely, and the volume is tremendously useful as a resource and guide for future Creeley studies."--Lisa Samuels, author, The Invention of Culture and Tomorrowland > >"Reading this volume, you can't help but picture its first dramatic staging, a blizzard-bound Buffalo night when some of our smartest and most original contemporary poets and critics improvised a conference in a hotel room that, against all odds and general conditions, retained its light and heat. These essays, marked by their own heat and often by a dazzling, dilative light, delineate--'equel remir contral lum de la lampa'--the incomparable shapeliness of the work of Robert Creeley, a signal poet whose influence on yet another generation of young writers is clearly surgent. Form, Power, and Person in Robert Creeley's Life and Work invigorates our >thinking not only about Creeley's significance, but also about what poetry is and does. For anyone who, like Creeley, can claim to be 'frankly and selfishly interested in the word,' this book is a site of memorable delight."--Forrest Gander > >Further details at the following link: > >http://uipress.uiowa.edu/books/2010-spring/fredman.htm > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it."?? John Palattella in The Nation ???????? ???????? ???????? ???????? ???????? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Wed Mar 24 14:07:21 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 14:07:21 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More on Ai from the Poetry Foundation In-Reply-To: References: <765714.14602.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8CC9993FBC5EB06-1894-4F12@webmail-d010.sysops.aol.com> Ouch (& sorry, Ai), I somehow missed the last seven lines when I copied out "The Kid" the other night...it helps to flip the page. See full poem here: http://www.poetryfoundation.org/archive/poem.html?id=171245 Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Tue, Mar 23, 2010 2:29 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] More on Ai from the Poetry Foundation She was the only one of her kind, and attention only goes to members of whatever club. An often wonderful poet, provocative as they come. Best, Mark At 02:26 PM 3/23/2010, you wrote: Via Tisa Bryant: http://www.poetryfoundation.org/archive/poet.html?id=80637 Still no major coverage but something... Best, Amy _______ HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ THE GURLESQUE - NOT ENOUGH GRRRL? http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Mar 25 14:08:50 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 11:08:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / "Outlining" / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a group?, What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc Message-ID: <454450.69444.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> The more I read of how this book came to be (I started with the Gurlesque anthology first), the more invested I become. My opinions are taking shape, and yet, only a few, especially Danielle Pafunda primarily, join me in discussing what is beginning to feel like "my issue" -- I invite you to join the discussion (to whet your interest, my last response, from the comments thread, to Danielle is pasted below) -- http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ Thanks, Amy Good morning, Danielle! Okay, I?m going to try to make my contention clearer. Let?s start with a Glenum quote from Johannes blog: ?And Riot Grrr. Think zombified Courtney Love in her babydoll nightie, who somehow managed able to make female nudity threatening and aggressive rather than erotic.? Two anecdotes now & then my explanation in relation to the Gurlesque anthology: I loved Love?s music. Once, I was at one of her shows, pretty intimate, maybe a hundred people or so. (Drew Barrymore was even there, backstage, taking care of Francis Bean) Love rocked out; she spoke aggressively, wore her babydoll dress, combat boots, said lots of pro-women things, etc. Late in the show, she decided to stage dive, just like any guy singer would who could feel the energy from the crowd. But this crowd, especially the pit-as-usual, was more than half guys. And when she got carried across that pit, those men began ripping her clothes, feeling her up, etc. It was all security could do to get her back, a total struggle. Onstage again, she was pissed, frustrated, and could only scream into the mic angrily, ?I test every crowd in every city, and you FAILED!? and stormed off stage. For all of her aggression, all of her posturing, all of her proclamations, her nudity was *not* threatening, as Glenum claims; she remained most certainly an erotic object to grab and fuck and disrespect. I've never seen a man experience a stage dive even remotely similar. Moving on to Tribe 8, Riot Grrrl band made up of all openly-queer women. This was one of the first shows to shock me. These women got on stage, they had hot bods that fit ?sexy? stereotypes. Several of them took off their shirts and began rocking out. Many of the men didn?t know what the fuck to do. They just gaped, though some got into the music, moshing a bit, especially as the shock wore off and the show went on. More women were in the pit than usual too. But the initial problem for the men and those of us attuned to seeing women through the male gaze, despite the hardcore energy of the music (which is what we presumably paid for), was that these women became grotesque, they were parodies incarnate because these were women?s bodies with true bare breasts, those sexy orbs (the site of symbolic sex/sexiness), attached to real monsters: women who were publicly queer and therefore by default anomalies, performing this killer music but not as a site for masturbation or fucking. They were truly threatening, scary and not to be fucked with. Not one guy tried to touch them, though I?m sure a few had trouble processing/reconciling that female nudity with being there to rock out. Glenum and Greenberg say they?re ?describing what they?ve seen?, but based on the anthology, they seem to have only seen hetero-women performing gender in grotesque/hybrid/paradoxical ways. Even if they didn?t try to seek out the work of queer women, I know that Glenum is aware of Dodie Bellamy?s poetry, which would lead one to imagine that, even if they didn?t include Bellamy?s work, they would have made a conscious attempt to seek out and include work by queer-identified women that includes representations/perspectives of queer women, especially as sites of resistance /grotesqueness / parody ? not just hetero-women and girls in the making. The ?queer woman? certainly falls under the category of ?representations of women? in the public eye that Glenum and Greenberg define the anthology by. To omit any work of this sort from this anthology is not only a glaring omission, it?s exclusionary and does a disservice to the project of the Gurlesque; the anthology narrows the Gurlesque at great cost. Considering that the kind of performance the editors describe has long been the staple, almost inherently necessary work of a queer woman as soon as she owns her queerness out loud, it?s shocking to exclude any work by those women. I mean, Glenum founds the basis of her definition on Judith Butler, who obviously ?described? gender as performance ? & it?s no coincidence that the first theorist to publicly introduce that concept was a lesbian. To make a poor parallel, this anthology would be akin to editing an anthology of Experimental American Poetries and only including selections by Language Poets or Black Mountain poets. You can say it?s ?descriptive? and ?only? what you ?noticed? all you want, but the editors of such an anthology must have been wearing blinders if that?s all they include. I remain frustrated because the more I read from discussions online, the more I see that Glenum keeps conjuring ?queerness? and Greenberg claims to have ?coined? the term ?Gurlesque? while also aligning it with Riot Grrrl, but to see no inclusion of the queer roots of such performance, to not acknowledge the ongoing work of confounding the notion of ?woman? via queer perversion / queer women?s burlesque ? gurlesque is incredible. They may as well mark the exclusiveness of this project as defined/narrowed through this anthology and say ?queering the hetero-woman and girl concept by hetero-women?, which really only smacks of efforts to subvert, not ?queer? when you don?t actually include the queer. Just one more note and I?ll stop, let my frustration go the way of the mostly-silence on this issue: A whole lot happens when a queer woman frustrates the male gaze that inspires a very different awareness, which emerges over time for queer women. This awareness births ideas and performances that are certainly co-opted and appropriated by hetero-women, and that?s absolutely fine. From the most basic of signifiers like dykes wearing combat boots and punking out/shearing their hair to larger behaviors that I will not go into right now, we have created and given permissions that may not have happened for a long time for straight women. I?m not trying to own all of the subversive stuff straight women have tried on or done for themselves, at all. But I haven?t read anything in all of Glenum?s and Greenberg?s descriptions that queer women as poets, performers, mothers, etc, haven?t also been doing/dealing with and adding to the conversation/culture. Just yesterday, a guy didn?t like what I had to say about Bukowski on a friggin? throw-away Facebook post and, knowing I?m queer, told me to get my ?head out of my cunt?, made lewd claims about my relations with my ?partner? (his quotes) in an effort to delegitimize my relationship, and other shit ? and that was only one tiny fraction of my experience with men reacting to the queer grotesque monster woman that I am daily. So yes, the queer existence does have a leg up experientially when it comes to understanding what it means to perform for that male gaze while simultaneously and paradoxically excising one?s self from it just by default of primarily loving and being for and in relation to women ? and that kind of performance certainly does make its way into queer women?s poetry. I just can?t believe these editors, two smart well-versed and theoretically-inclined women, didn?t come across any writing that fit that bill or give a single nod to it, though they unabashedly have no problem referencing the type of work queer women have historically done and continue to do. Here, have some poems by Julian Brolaski and tell me how these don?t fit the Gurlesque - http://chax.org/eoagh/issue3/issuethree/brolaski.html Or Brenda Iijima and Stacy Szymaszek -- http://chax.org/eoagh/issue3/issuethree/bracyiimaszek.html Or any number of queer poets I don?t have time right now to sift through but would have if I were an editor of an anthology such as this? Sorry to be insistent; I?m still just emotional and pissed. But moreover, I appreciate your bravery and how constructively you continue to engage me on this matter, Danielle ? I know you?re tons busy! I think you hit the nail on the head in your efforts in the last comment to note / outline what you see me reacting to. I wonder if others who see it will speak up (quite a few have backchannled, as noted), or if those involved will acknowledge this gap. Thanks lots, A _______ HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ THE GURLESQUE - NOT ENOUGH GRRRL? http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cvoisine at nmsu.edu Thu Mar 25 14:22:16 2010 From: cvoisine at nmsu.edu (Connie Voisine) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 12:22:16 -0600 Subject: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / "Outlining" / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a group?, What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc In-Reply-To: <454450.69444.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <454450.69444.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <36cb1de81003251122n5e688191i267bdfb69a3be2df@mail.gmail.com> amy...keep going! you've articulated some essential problems with this "movement." thanks, connie On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 12:08 PM, amy king wrote: > The more I read of how this book came to be (I started with the Gurlesque > anthology first), the more invested I become. My opinions are taking shape, > and yet, only a few, especially Danielle Pafunda primarily, join me in > discussing what is beginning to feel like "my issue" -- I invite you to join > the discussion (to whet your interest, my last response, from the comments > thread, to Danielle is pasted below) -- > http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ Thanks, Amy > Good morning, Danielle! Okay, I?m going to try to make my contention > clearer. Let?s start with a Glenum quote from Johannes blog: ?And Riot Grrr. > Think zombified Courtney Love in her babydoll nightie, who somehow managed > able to make female nudity threatening and aggressive rather than erotic.? > Two anecdotes now & then my explanation in relation to the Gurlesque > anthology: I loved Love?s music. Once, I was at one of her shows, pretty > intimate, maybe a hundred people or so. (Drew Barrymore was even there, > backstage, taking care of Francis Bean) Love rocked out; she spoke > aggressively, wore her babydoll dress, combat boots, said lots of pro-women > things, etc. Late in the show, she decided to stage dive, just like any guy > singer would who could feel the energy from the crowd. But this crowd, > especially the pit-as-usual, was more than half guys. And when she got > carried across that pit, those men began ripping her clothes, feeling her > up, etc. It was all security could do to get her back, a total struggle. > Onstage again, she was pissed, frustrated, and could only scream into the > mic angrily, ?I test every crowd in every city, and you FAILED!? and stormed > off stage. For all of her aggression, all of her posturing, all of her > proclamations, her nudity was *not* threatening, as Glenum claims; she > remained most certainly an erotic object to grab and fuck and disrespect. > I've never seen a man experience a stage dive even remotely similar. Moving > on to Tribe 8, Riot Grrrl band made up of all openly-queer women. This was > one of the first shows to shock me. These women got on stage, they had hot > bods that fit ?sexy? stereotypes. Several of them took off their shirts and > began rocking out. Many of the men didn?t know what the fuck to do. They > just gaped, though some got into the music, moshing a bit, especially as the > shock wore off and the show went on. More women were in the pit than usual > too. But the initial problem for the men and those of us attuned to seeing > women through the male gaze, despite the hardcore energy of the music (which > is what we presumably paid for), was that these women became grotesque, they > were parodies incarnate because these were women?s bodies with true bare > breasts, those sexy orbs (the site of symbolic sex/sexiness), attached to > real monsters: women who were publicly queer and therefore by default > anomalies, performing this killer music but not as a site for masturbation > or fucking. They were truly threatening, scary and not to be fucked with. > Not one guy tried to touch them, though I?m sure a few had trouble > processing/reconciling that female nudity with being there to rock out. > Glenum and Greenberg say they?re ?describing what they?ve seen?, but based > on the anthology, they seem to have only seen hetero-women performing gender > in grotesque/hybrid/paradoxical ways. Even if they didn?t try to seek out > the work of queer women, I know that Glenum is aware of Dodie Bellamy?s > poetry, which would lead one to imagine that, even if they didn?t include > Bellamy?s work, they would have made a conscious attempt to seek out and > include work by queer-identified women that includes > representations/perspectives of queer women, especially as sites of > resistance /grotesqueness / parody ? not just hetero-women and girls in the > making. The ?queer woman? certainly falls under the category of > ?representations of women? in the public eye that Glenum and Greenberg > define the anthology by. To omit any work of this sort from this anthology > is not only a glaring omission, it?s exclusionary and does a disservice to > the project of the Gurlesque; the anthology narrows the Gurlesque at great > cost. Considering that the kind of performance the editors describe has long > been the staple, almost inherently necessary work of a queer woman as soon > as she owns her queerness out loud, it?s shocking to exclude any work by > those women. I mean, Glenum founds the basis of her definition on Judith > Butler, who obviously ?described? gender as performance ? & it?s no > coincidence that the first theorist to publicly introduce that concept was a > lesbian. To make a poor parallel, this anthology would be akin to editing an > anthology of Experimental American Poetries and only including selections by > Language Poets or Black Mountain poets. You can say it?s ?descriptive? and > ?only? what you ?noticed? all you want, but the editors of such an anthology > must have been wearing blinders if that?s all they include. I remain > frustrated because the more I read from discussions online, the more I see > that Glenum keeps conjuring ?queerness? and Greenberg claims to have > ?coined? the term ?Gurlesque? while also aligning it with Riot Grrrl, but to > see no inclusion of the queer roots of such performance, to not acknowledge > the ongoing work of confounding the notion of ?woman? via queer perversion / > queer women?s burlesque ? gurlesque is incredible. They may as well mark the > exclusiveness of this project as defined/narrowed through this anthology and > say ?queering the hetero-woman and girl concept by hetero-women?, which > really only smacks of efforts to subvert, not ?queer? when you don?t > actually include the queer. Just one more note and I?ll stop, let my > frustration go the way of the mostly-silence on this issue: A whole lot > happens when a queer woman frustrates the male gaze that inspires a very > different awareness, which emerges over time for queer women. This awareness > births ideas and performances that are certainly co-opted and appropriated > by hetero-women, and that?s absolutely fine. From the most basic of > signifiers like dykes wearing combat boots and punking out/shearing their > hair to larger behaviors that I will not go into right now, we have created > and given permissions that may not have happened for a long time for > straight women. I?m not trying to own all of the subversive stuff straight > women have tried on or done for themselves, at all. But I haven?t read > anything in all of Glenum?s and Greenberg?s descriptions that queer women as > poets, performers, mothers, etc, haven?t also been doing/dealing with and > adding to the conversation/culture. Just yesterday, a guy didn?t like what I > had to say about Bukowski on a friggin? throw-away Facebook post and, > knowing I?m queer, told me to get my ?head out of my cunt?, made lewd claims > about my relations with my ?partner? (his quotes) in an effort to > delegitimize my relationship, and other shit ? and that was only one tiny > fraction of my experience with men reacting to the queer grotesque monster > woman that I am daily. So yes, the queer existence does have a leg up > experientially when it comes to understanding what it means to perform for > that male gaze while simultaneously and paradoxically excising one?s self > from it just by default of primarily loving and being for and in relation to > women ? and that kind of performance certainly does make its way into queer > women?s poetry. I just can?t believe these editors, two smart well-versed > and theoretically-inclined women, didn?t come across any writing that fit > that bill or give a single nod to it, though they unabashedly have no > problem referencing the type of work queer women have historically done and > continue to do. Here, have some poems by Julian Brolaski and tell me how > these don?t fit the Gurlesque - > http://chax.org/eoagh/issue3/issuethree/brolaski.html Or Brenda Iijima and > Stacy Szymaszek -- > http://chax.org/eoagh/issue3/issuethree/bracyiimaszek.html Or any number > of queer poets I don?t have time right now to sift through but would have if > I were an editor of an anthology such as this? Sorry to be insistent; I?m > still just emotional and pissed. But moreover, I appreciate your bravery and > how constructively you continue to engage me on this matter, Danielle ? I > know you?re tons busy! I think you hit the nail on the head in your efforts > in the last comment to note / outline what you see me reacting to. I wonder > if others who see it will speak up (quite a few have backchannled, as > noted), or if those involved will acknowledge this gap. Thanks lots, A > _______* > > * > HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: > > http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ > > THE GURLESQUE - NOT ENOUGH GRRRL? > > http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ > * > * > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Connie Voisine Associate Professor of English New Mexico State University cvoisine at nmsu.edu 575-646-2027 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Mar 25 16:26:48 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 13:26:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] =?utf-8?q?This_Saturday_March_27=2C_2010_--_Poet?= =?utf-8?q?=E2=80=99s_at_The_Poets_Salon?= Message-ID: <146275.67928.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> ________________________________ Poet?s at The Poets Salon ROOM 198 on the Concourse Level CUNY Graduate Center 5th Ave & 34th Street Saturday March 27th 2010 COME HEAR ! over 40 AMAZING Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Queer Poet?s Reading & Performing their own Poetry for You for FREE ! Starting Every Half Hour on the Half Hour in Room 198 11:30 am Poets: Walter Holland, Bill Kushner, Jason Roush, Daniel Lau, Rosamond S. King and Vittoria repetto followed by Readings from ?Persistent Voices Poetry by Writers Lost to AIDS? 12:30 pm Poets: David Bergman, Jameson Fitzpatrick, Saeed Jones, Richard Tayson, Ana Bozicevic, Amy King, Debrah Morkun, and Gregory Laynor followed by Readings from ?Persistent Voices Poetry by Writers Lost to AIDS? 1:30 pm Poets: Davidson Garrett, David Messineo, Nicholas Glastonbury, Octavio Gonzalez, Rigoberto Gonzalez, Tim Peterson (Trace), and Rachel Zolf followed by Readings from ?Persistent Voices Poetry by Writers Lost to AIDS? 2:30pm Poets: Elizabeth Reddin, Laurie Weeks, Vega, Bakar Wilson, Ronaldo V. Wilson, Emanuel Xavier, Julian Brolaski, and Danielle Evennou followed by Readings from ?Persistent Voices Poetry by Writers Lost to AIDS? 3:30pm Poets: Stephanie Gray, Paul Foster Johnson, Douglas A. Martin, Steven Cordova, Mina Pam Dick, Jee Leong Koh, and Angelo Nikolopoulos followed by Readings from ?Persistent Voices Poetry by Writers Lost to AIDS? 4:30pm Poets: Ron Drummond, Scott Hightower, Timothy Liu, Moonshine Shorey, Philip Clark, Nathaniel A. Siegel followed by Readings from ?Persistent Voices Poetry by Writers Lost to AIDS? A LIMITED EDITION COLLECTION OF POETRY: ?COME HEAR !? FEATURING THE WORK OF THESE 40 POETS WILL BE AVAILABLE FOR PURCHASE AT THE READING FOR $10 THE READING IS FREE AND OPEN TO THE PUBLIC ! _______ HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ THE GURLESQUE - NOT ENOUGH GRRRL? http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Thu Mar 25 16:31:35 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 16:31:35 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / "Outlining" / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a group?, What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc In-Reply-To: <454450.69444.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <454450.69444.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Amy: this is reductionist to a degree that you'd probably find appalling if it came from a man. I know you're trafficking in ideological cliches, but do you honestly believe that there's a thing called "the male gaze" as opposed to a whole bunch of different male gazes, or for that matter such a thing as "the male" as opposed to a bunch of different "males"? Are you unaware that there are other variables, like age, class, education, ethnicity, that modify behavior? Like, who was in the audiences you describe? Were they all nonplussed by the "monster lesbians" or did some think ho hum and others fetishize her? Do you really assume that maleness is a whole lot less complex than femaleness? Best, Mark At 02:08 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: >The more I read of how this book came to be (I >started with the Gurlesque anthology first), the >more invested I become. My opinions are taking >shape, and yet, only a few, especially Danielle >Pafunda primarily, join me in discussing what is >beginning to feel like "my issue" -- I invite >you to join the discussion (to whet your >interest, my last response, from the comments >thread, to Danielle is pasted below) -- >http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ >Thanks, Amy Good morning, Danielle! Okay, I???m >going to try to make my contention clearer. >Let???s start with a Glenum quote from Johannes >blog: ???And Riot Grrr. Think zombified Courtney >Love in her babydoll nightie, who somehow >managed able to make female nudity threatening >and aggressive rather than erotic.??? Two >anecdotes now & then my explanation in relation >to the Gurlesque anthology: I loved Love???s >music. Once, I was at one of her shows, pretty >intimate, maybe a hundred people or so. (Drew >Barrymore was even there, backstage, taking care >of Francis Bean) Love rocked out; she spoke >aggressively, wore her babydoll dress, combat >boots, said lots of pro-women things, etc. Late >in the show, she decided to stage dive, just >like any guy singer would who could feel the >energy from the crowd. But this crowd, >especially the pit-as-usual, was more than half >guys. And when she got carried across that pit, >those men began ripping her clothes, feeling her >up, etc. It was all security could do to get her >back, a total struggle. Onstage again, she was >pissed, frustrated, and could only scream into >the mic angrily, ???I test every crowd in every >city, and you FAILED!??? and stormed off stage. >For all of her aggression, all of her posturing, >all of her proclamations, her nudity was *not* >threatening, as Glenum claims; she remained most >certainly an erotic object to grab and fuck and >disrespect. I've never seen a man experience a >stage dive even remotely similar. Moving on to >Tribe 8, Riot Grrrl band made up of all >openly-queer women. This was one of the first >shows to shock me. These women got on stage, >they had hot bods that fit ???sexy??? >stereotypes. Several of them took off their >shirts and began rocking out. Many of the men >didn???t know what the fuck to do. They just >gaped, though some got into the music, moshing a >bit, especially as the shock wore off and the >show went on. More women were in the pit than >usual too. But the initial problem for the men >and those of us attuned to seeing women through >the male gaze, despite the hardcore energy of >the music (which is what we presumably paid >for), was that these women became grotesque, >they were parodies incarnate because these were >women???s bodies with true bare breasts, those >sexy orbs (the site of symbolic sex/sexiness), >attached to real monsters: women who were >publicly queer and therefore by default >anomalies, performing this killer music but not >as a site for masturbation or fucking. They were >truly threatening, scary and not to be fucked >with. Not one guy tried to touch them, though >I???m sure a few had trouble >processing/reconciling that female nudity with >being there to rock out. Glenum and Greenberg >say they???re ???describing what they???ve >seen???, but based on the anthology, they seem >to have only seen hetero-women performing gender >in grotesque/hybrid/paradoxical ways. Even if >they didn???t try to seek out the work of queer >women, I know that Glenum is aware of Dodie >Bellamy???s poetry, which would lead one to >imagine that, even if they didn???t include >Bellamy???s work, they would have made a >conscious attempt to seek out and include work >by queer-identified women that includes >representations/perspectives of queer women, >especially as sites of resistance /grotesqueness >/ parody ? not just hetero-women and girls in >thhe making. The ???queer woman??? certainly >falls under the category of ???representations >of women??? in the public eye that Glenum and >Greenberg define the anthology by. To omit any >work of this sort from this anthology is not >only a glaring omission, it???s exclusionary and >does a disservice to the project of the >Gurlesque; the anthology narrows the Gurlesque >at great cost. Considering that the kind of >performance the editors describe has long been >the staple, almost inherently necessary work of >a queer woman as soon as she owns her queerness >out loud, it???s shocking to exclude any work by >those women. I mean, Glenum founds the basis of >her definition on Judith Butler, who obviously >???described??? gender as performance ? & it???s >no coinncidence that the first theorist to >publicly introduce that concept was a lesbian. >To make a poor parallel, this anthology would be >akin to editing an anthology of Experimental >American Poetries and only including selections >by Language Poets or Black Mountain poets. You >can say it???s ???descriptive??? and ???only??? >what you ???noticed??? all you want, but the >editors of such an anthology must have been >wearing blinders if that???s all they include. I >remain frustrated because the more I read from >discussions online, the more I see that Glenum >keeps conjuring ???queerness??? and Greenberg >claims to have ???coined??? the term >???Gurlesque??? while also aligning it with Riot >Grrrl, but to see no inclusion of the queer >roots of such performance, to not acknowledge >the ongoing work of confounding the notion of >???woman??? via queer perversion / queer >women???s burlesque ? gurlesque is incredible. >They may as well mark the exclusiveness of this >project as defined/narrowed through this >anthology and say ???queering the hetero-woman >and girl concept by hetero-women???, which >really only smacks of efforts to subvert, not >???queer??? when you don???t actually include >the queer. Just one more note and I???ll stop, >let my frustration go the way of the >mostly-silence on this issue: A whole lot >happens when a queer woman frustrates the male >gaze that inspires a very different awareness, >which emerges over time for queer women. This >awareness births ideas and performances that are >certainly co-opted and appropriated by >hetero-women, and that???s absolutely fine. From >the most basic of signifiers like dykes wearing >combat boots and punking out/shearing their hair >to larger behaviors that I will not go into >right now, we have created and given permissions >that may not have happened for a long time for >straight women. I???m not trying to own all of >the subversive stuff straight women have tried >on or done for themselves, at all. But I >haven???t read anything in all of Glenum???s and >Greenberg???s descriptions that queer women as >poets, performers, mothers, etc, haven???t also >been doing/dealing with and adding to the >conversation/culture. Just yesterday, a guy >didn???t like what I had to say about Bukowski >on a friggin??? throw-away Facebook post and, >knowing I???m queer, told me to get my ???head >out of my cunt???, made lewd claims about my >relations with my ???partner??? (his quotes) in >an effort to delegitimize my relationship, and >other shit ? and that was only one tiny fraction >of my experience wiith men reacting to the queer >grotesque monster woman that I am daily. So yes, >the queer existence does have a leg up >experientially when it comes to understanding >what it means to perform for that male gaze >while simultaneously and paradoxically excising >one???s self from it just by default of >primarily loving and being for and in relation >to women ? and thaat kind of performance >certainly does make its way into queer women???s >poetry. I just can???t believe these editors, >two smart well-versed and theoretically-inclined >women, didn???t come across any writing that fit >that bill or give a single nod to it, though >they unabashedly have no problem referencing the >type of work queer women have historically done >and continue to do. Here, have some poems by >Julian Brolaski and tell me how these don???t >fit the Gurlesque - >http://chax.org/eoagh/issue3/issuethree/brolaski.html >Or Brenda Iijima and Stacy Szymaszek -- >http://chax.org/eoagh/issue3/issuethree/bracyiimaszek.html >Or any number of queer poets I don???t have time >right now to sift through but would have if I >were an editor of an anthology such as this >Sorry to be insistent; I???m still just >emotional and pissed. But moreover, I appreciate >your bravery and how constructively you continue >to engage me on this matter, Danielle ? I know >you???re tons busy!! I think you hit the nail on >the head in your efforts in the last comment to >note / outline what you see me reacting to. I >wonder if others who see it will speak up (quite >a few have backchannled, as noted), or if those >involved will acknowledge this gap. Thanks lots, A >_______ > >HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: > >http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ > >THE GURLESQUE - NOT ENOUGH GRRRL? > >http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Mar 25 16:33:16 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 13:33:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / "Outlining" / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a group?, What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc In-Reply-To: <36cb1de81003251122n5e688191i267bdfb69a3be2df@mail.gmail.com> References: <454450.69444.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <36cb1de81003251122n5e688191i267bdfb69a3be2df@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <199607.99572.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Thank you, Connie! Apparently, it's the unpopular thing to voice my gripes, any gripes, aloud... Best, Amy ________________________________ From: Connie Voisine To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Sent: Thu, March 25, 2010 2:22:16 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / "Outlining" / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a group?, What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc amy...keep going! you've articulated some essential problems with this "movement." thanks, connie On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 12:08 PM, amy king wrote: The more I read of how this book came to be (I started with the Gurlesque anthology first), the more invested I become. My opinions are taking shape, and yet, only a few, especially Danielle Pafunda primarily, join me in discussing what is beginning to feel like "my issue" -- > >I invite you to join the discussion (to whet your interest, my last response, from the comments thread, to Danielle is pasted below) -- > >http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ > > >Thanks, > >Amy > > >Good morning, Danielle! > >Okay, I?m going to try to make my contention clearer. Let?s start with a Glenum quote from Johannes blog: > >?And Riot Grrr. Think zombified Courtney Love in her babydoll nightie, who somehow managed able to make female nudity threatening and aggressive rather than erotic.? > >Two anecdotes now & then my explanation in relation to the Gurlesque anthology: > >I loved Love?s music. Once, I was at one of her shows, pretty intimate, maybe a hundred people or so. (Drew Barrymore was even there, backstage, taking care of Francis Bean) Love rocked out; she spoke aggressively, wore her babydoll dress, combat boots, said lots of pro-women things, etc. Late in the show, she decided to stage dive, just like any guy singer would who could feel the energy from the crowd. But this crowd, especially the pit-as-usual, was more than half guys. And when she got carried across that pit, those men began ripping her clothes, feeling her up, etc. It was all security could do to get her back, a total struggle. Onstage again, she was pissed, frustrated, and could only scream into the mic angrily, ?I test every crowd in every city, and you FAILED!? and stormed off stage. For all of her aggression, all of her posturing, all of her proclamations, her nudity was *not* threatening, as Glenum claims; she remained most > certainly an erotic object to grab and fuck and disrespect. I've never seen a man experience a stage dive even remotely similar. > >Moving on to Tribe 8, Riot Grrrl band made up of all openly-queer women. This was one of the first shows to shock me. These women got on stage, they had hot bods that fit ?sexy? stereotypes. Several of them took off their shirts and began rocking out. Many of the men didn?t know what the fuck to do. They just gaped, though some got into the music, moshing a bit, especially as the shock wore off and the show went on. More women were in the pit than usual too. But the initial problem for the men and those of us attuned to seeing women through the male gaze, despite the hardcore energy of the music (which is what we presumably paid for), was that these women became grotesque, they were parodies incarnate because these were women?s bodies with true bare breasts, those sexy orbs (the site of symbolic sex/sexiness), attached to real monsters: women who were publicly queer and therefore by default anomalies, performing this killer music but not > as a site for masturbation or fucking. They were truly threatening, scary and not to be fucked with. Not one guy tried to touch them, though I?m sure a few had trouble processing/reconciling that female nudity with being there to rock out. > >Glenum and Greenberg say they?re ?describing what they?ve seen?, but based on the anthology, they seem to have only seen hetero-women performing gender in grotesque/hybrid/paradoxical ways. Even if they didn?t try to seek out the work of queer women, I know that Glenum is aware of Dodie Bellamy?s poetry, which would lead one to imagine that, even if they didn?t include Bellamy?s work, they would have made a conscious attempt to seek out and include work by queer-identified women that includes representations/perspectives of queer women, especially as sites of resistance /grotesqueness / parody ? not just hetero-women and girls in the making. The ?queer woman? certainly falls under the category of ?representations of women? in the public eye that Glenum and Greenberg define the anthology by. > >To omit any work of this sort from this anthology is not only a glaring omission, it?s exclusionary and does a disservice to the project of the Gurlesque; the anthology narrows the Gurlesque at great cost. Considering that the kind of performance the editors describe has long been the staple, almost inherently necessary work of a queer woman as soon as she owns her queerness out loud, it?s shocking to exclude any work by those women. I mean, Glenum founds the basis of her definition on Judith Butler, who obviously ?described? gender as performance ? & it?s no coincidence that the first theorist to publicly introduce that concept was a lesbian. > >To make a poor parallel, this anthology would be akin to editing an anthology of Experimental American Poetries and only including selections by Language Poets or Black Mountain poets. You can say it?s ?descriptive? and ?only? what you ?noticed? all you want, but the editors of such an anthology must have been wearing blinders if that?s all they include. > >I remain frustrated because the more I read from discussions online, the more I see that Glenum keeps conjuring ?queerness? and Greenberg claims to have ?coined? the term ?Gurlesque? while also aligning it with Riot Grrrl, but to see no inclusion of the queer roots of such performance, to not acknowledge the ongoing work of confounding the notion of ?woman? via queer perversion / queer women?s burlesque ? gurlesque is incredible. They may as well mark the exclusiveness of this project as defined/narrowed through this anthology and say ?queering the hetero-woman and girl concept by hetero-women?, which really only smacks of efforts to subvert, not ?queer? when you don?t actually include the queer. > >Just one more note and I?ll stop, let my frustration go the way of the mostly-silence on this issue: A whole lot happens when a queer woman frustrates the male gaze that inspires a very different awareness, which emerges over time for queer women. This awareness births ideas and performances that are certainly co-opted and appropriated by hetero-women, and that?s absolutely fine. From the most basic of signifiers like dykes wearing combat boots and punking out/shearing their hair to larger behaviors that I will not go into right now, we have created and given permissions that may not have happened for a long time for straight women. I?m not trying to own all of the subversive stuff straight women have tried on or done for themselves, at all. But I haven?t read anything in all of Glenum?s and Greenberg?s descriptions that queer women as poets, performers, mothers, etc, haven?t also been doing/dealing with and adding to the > conversation/culture. > >Just yesterday, a guy didn?t like what I had to say about Bukowski on a friggin? throw-away Facebook post and, knowing I?m queer, told me to get my ?head out of my cunt?, made lewd claims about my relations with my ?partner? (his quotes) in an effort to delegitimize my relationship, and other shit ? and that was only one tiny fraction of my experience with men reacting to the queer grotesque monster woman that I am daily. So yes, the queer existence does have a leg up experientially when it comes to understanding what it means to perform for that male gaze while simultaneously and paradoxically excising one?s self from it just by default of primarily loving and being for and in relation to women ? and that kind of performance certainly does make its way into queer women?s poetry. I just can?t believe these editors, two smart well-versed and theoretically-inclined women, didn?t come across any writing that fit that bill or give > a single nod to it, though they unabashedly have no problem referencing the type of work queer women have historically done and continue to do. Here, have some poems by Julian Brolaski and tell me how these don?t fit the Gurlesque - http://chax.org/eoagh/issue3/issuethree/brolaski.html > >Or Brenda Iijima and Stacy Szymaszek -- >http://chax.org/eoagh/issue3/issuethree/bracyiimaszek.html > >Or any number of queer poets I don?t have time right now to sift through but would have if I were an editor of an anthology such as this? > >Sorry to be insistent; I?m still just emotional and pissed. But moreover, I appreciate your bravery and how constructively you continue to engage me on this matter, Danielle ? I know you?re tons busy! I think you hit the nail on the head in your efforts in the last comment to note / outline what you see me reacting to. I wonder if others who see it will speak up (quite a few have backchannled, as noted), or if those involved will acknowledge this gap. > >Thanks lots, A > > _______ > > >HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: > > >http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ > > >THE GURLESQUE - NOT ENOUGH GRRRL? > > >http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Connie Voisine Associate Professor of English New Mexico State University cvoisine at nmsu.edu 575-646-2027 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Mar 25 16:39:30 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 13:39:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / "Outlining" / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a group?, What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc In-Reply-To: References: <454450.69444.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <235734.2761.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> No, Mark - I don't "think" that. But for the sake of brevity and ideological discussions, we do speak about the "male gaze" esp as it frames "women" (i.e. Laura Mulvey posited long ago that women also see through a "male gaze" - ideological discussions. That doesn't mean women see like men.) - I don't imagine every man sees through the same exact eye anymore than I think all lawyers like cigars and cocktails at five p.m. or all hetero-women want to birth babies. Amy _______ HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ THE GURLESQUE - NOT ENOUGH GRRRL? http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ ________________________________ From: Mark Weiss To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Thu, March 25, 2010 4:31:35 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / "Outlining" / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a group?, What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc Amy: this is reductionist to a degree that you'd probably find appalling if it came from a man. I know you're trafficking in ideological cliches, but do you honestly believe that there's a thing called "the male gaze" as opposed to a whole bunch of different male gazes, or for that matter such a thing as "the male" as opposed to a bunch of different "males"? Are you unaware that there are other variables, like age, class, education, ethnicity, that modify behavior? Like, who was in the audiences you describe? Were they all nonplussed by the "monster lesbians" or did some think ho hum and others fetishize her? Do you really assume that maleness is a whole lot less complex than femaleness? Best, Mark At 02:08 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: The more I read of how this book >came to be (I started with the Gurlesque anthology first), the more >invested I become. My opinions are taking shape, and yet, only a few, >especially Danielle Pafunda primarily, join me in discussing what is >beginning to feel like "my issue" -- I invite you to join the >discussion (to whet your interest, my last response, from the comments >thread, to Danielle is pasted below) -- >>http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/Thanks, >Amy Good morning, Danielle! Okay, I???m going to try to make my >contention clearer. Let???s start with a Glenum quote from Johannes blog: >???And Riot Grrr. Think zombified Courtney Love in her babydoll nightie, >who somehow managed able to make female nudity threatening and aggressive >rather than erotic.??? Two anecdotes now & then my explanation in >relation to the Gurlesque anthology: I loved Love???s music. Once, I was >at one of her shows, pretty intimate, maybe a hundred people or so. (Drew >Barrymore was even there, backstage, taking care of Francis Bean) Love >rocked out; she spoke aggressively, wore her babydoll dress, combat >boots, said lots of pro-women things, etc. Late in the show, she decided >to stage dive, just like any guy singer would who could feel the energy >from the crowd. But this crowd, especially the pit-as-usual, was more >than half guys. And when she got carried across that pit, those men began >ripping her clothes, feeling her up, etc. It was all security could do to >get her back, a total struggle. Onstage again, she was pissed, >frustrated, and could only scream into the mic angrily, ???I test every >crowd in every city, and you FAILED!??? and stormed off stage. For all of >her aggression, all of her posturing, all of her proclamations, her >nudity was *not* threatening, as Glenum claims; she remained most >certainly an erotic object to grab and fuck and disrespect. I've never >seen a man experience a stage dive even remotely similar. Moving on to >Tribe 8, Riot Grrrl band made up of all openly-queer women. This was one >of the first shows to shock me. These women got on stage, they had hot >bods that fit ???sexy??? stereotypes. Several of them took off their >shirts and began rocking out. Many of the men didn???t know what the fuck >to do. They just gaped, though some got into the music, moshing a bit, >especially as the shock wore off and the show went on. More women were in >the pit than usual too. But the initial problem for the men and those of >us attuned to seeing women through the male gaze, despite the hardcore >energy of the music (which is what we presumably paid for), was that >these women became grotesque, they were parodies incarnate because these >were women???s bodies with true bare breasts, those sexy orbs (the site >of symbolic sex/sexiness), attached to real monsters: women who were >publicly queer and therefore by default anomalies, performing this killer >music but not as a site for masturbation or fucking. They were truly >threatening, scary and not to be fucked with. Not one guy tried to touch >them, though I???m sure a few had trouble processing/reconciling that >female nudity with being there to rock out. Glenum and Greenberg say >they???re ???describing what they???ve seen???, but based on the >anthology, they seem to have only seen hetero-women performing gender in >grotesque/hybrid/paradoxical ways. Even if they didn???t try to seek out >the work of queer women, I know that Glenum is aware of Dodie Bellamy???s >poetry, which would lead one to imagine that, even if they didn???t >include Bellamy???s work, they would have made a conscious attempt to >seek out and include work by queer-identified women that includes >representations/perspectives of queer women, especially as sites of >resistance /grotesqueness / parody ? not just hetero-women and girls in >thhe making. The ???queer woman??? certainly falls under the category of >???representations of women??? in the public eye that Glenum and >Greenberg define the anthology by. To omit any work of this sort from >this anthology is not only a glaring omission, it???s exclusionary and >does a disservice to the project of the Gurlesque; the anthology narrows >the Gurlesque at great cost. Considering that the kind of performance the >editors describe has long been the staple, almost inherently necessary >work of a queer woman as soon as she owns her queerness out loud, it???s >shocking to exclude any work by those women. I mean, Glenum founds the >basis of her definition on Judith Butler, who obviously ???described??? >gender as performance ? & it???s no coinncidence that the first >theorist to publicly introduce that concept was a lesbian. To make a poor >parallel, this anthology would be akin to editing an anthology of >Experimental American Poetries and only including selections by Language >Poets or Black Mountain poets. You can say it???s ???descriptive??? and >???only??? what you ???noticed??? all you want, but the editors of such >an anthology must have been wearing blinders if that???s all they >include. I remain frustrated because the more I read from discussions >online, the more I see that Glenum keeps conjuring ???queerness??? and >Greenberg claims to have ???coined??? the term ???Gurlesque??? while also >aligning it with Riot Grrrl, but to see no inclusion of the queer roots >of such performance, to not acknowledge the ongoing work of confounding >the notion of ???woman??? via queer perversion / queer women???s >burlesque ? gurlesque is incredible. They may as well mark the >exclusiveness of this project as defined/narrowed through this anthology >and say ???queering the hetero-woman and girl concept by hetero-women???, >which really only smacks of efforts to subvert, not ???queer??? when you >don???t actually include the queer. Just one more note and I???ll stop, >let my frustration go the way of the mostly-silence on this issue: A >whole lot happens when a queer woman frustrates the male gaze that >inspires a very different awareness, which emerges over time for queer >women. This awareness births ideas and performances that are certainly >co-opted and appropriated by hetero-women, and that???s absolutely fine. >From the most basic of signifiers like dykes wearing combat boots and >punking out/shearing their hair to larger behaviors that I will not go >into right now, we have created and given permissions that may not have >happened for a long time for straight women. I???m not trying to own all >of the subversive stuff straight women have tried on or done for >themselves, at all. But I haven???t read anything in all of Glenum???s >and Greenberg???s descriptions that queer women as poets, performers, >mothers, etc, haven???t also been doing/dealing with and adding to the >conversation/culture. Just yesterday, a guy didn???t like what I had to >say about Bukowski on a friggin??? throw-away Facebook post and, knowing >I???m queer, told me to get my ???head out of my cunt???, made lewd >claims about my relations with my ???partner??? (his quotes) in an effort >to delegitimize my relationship, and other shit ? and that was only one >tiny fraction of my experience wiith men reacting to the queer grotesque >monster woman that I am daily. So yes, the queer existence does have a >leg up experientially when it comes to understanding what it means to >perform for that male gaze while simultaneously and paradoxically >excising one???s self from it just by default of primarily loving and >being for and in relation to women ? and thaat kind of performance >certainly does make its way into queer women???s poetry. I just can???t >believe these editors, two smart well-versed and theoretically-inclined >women, didn???t come across any writing that fit that bill or give a >single nod to it, though they unabashedly have no problem referencing the >type of work queer women have historically done and continue to do. Here, >have some poems by Julian Brolaski and tell me how these don???t fit the >Gurlesque - >http://chax.org/eoagh/issue3/issuethree/brolaski.html Or Brenda >Iijima and Stacy Szymaszek -- >>http://chax.org/eoagh/issue3/issuethree/bracyiimaszek.html Or any >number of queer poets I don???t have time right now to sift through but >would have if I were an editor of an anthology such as this? Sorry to be >insistent; I???m still just emotional and pissed. But moreover, I >appreciate your bravery and how constructively you continue to engage me >on this matter, Danielle ? I know you???re tons busy!! I think you hit >the nail on the head in your efforts in the last comment to note / >outline what you see me reacting to. I wonder if others who see it will >speak up (quite a few have backchannled, as noted), or if those involved >will acknowledge this gap. Thanks lots, A >>_______ > >HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: > >http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ > >>THE GURLESQUE - NOT ENOUGH GRRRL? > >http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ > > > >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Mar 25 16:50:54 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 13:50:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / "Outlining" / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a group?, What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc In-Reply-To: References: <454450.69444.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <898089.6829.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> By the way to illustrate what I'm talking about, I just found a few men who offer their responses to Tribe 8 at the 1:25 mark: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxPwCdw9GXA Enjoy, Amy _______ HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ THE GURLESQUE - NOT ENOUGH GRRRL? http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ ________________________________ From: Mark Weiss To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Thu, March 25, 2010 4:31:35 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / "Outlining" / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a group?, What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc Amy: this is reductionist to a degree that you'd probably find appalling if it came from a man. I know you're trafficking in ideological cliches, but do you honestly believe that there's a thing called "the male gaze" as opposed to a whole bunch of different male gazes, or for that matter such a thing as "the male" as opposed to a bunch of different "males"? Are you unaware that there are other variables, like age, class, education, ethnicity, that modify behavior? Like, who was in the audiences you describe? Were they all nonplussed by the "monster lesbians" or did some think ho hum and others fetishize her? Do you really assume that maleness is a whole lot less complex than femaleness? Best, Mark At 02:08 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: The more I read of how this book >came to be (I started with the Gurlesque anthology first), the more >invested I become. My opinions are taking shape, and yet, only a few, >especially Danielle Pafunda primarily, join me in discussing what is >beginning to feel like "my issue" -- I invite you to join the >discussion (to whet your interest, my last response, from the comments >thread, to Danielle is pasted below) -- >>http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/Thanks, >Amy Good morning, Danielle! Okay, I???m going to try to make my >contention clearer. Let???s start with a Glenum quote from Johannes blog: >???And Riot Grrr. Think zombified Courtney Love in her babydoll nightie, >who somehow managed able to make female nudity threatening and aggressive >rather than erotic.??? Two anecdotes now & then my explanation in >relation to the Gurlesque anthology: I loved Love???s music. Once, I was >at one of her shows, pretty intimate, maybe a hundred people or so. (Drew >Barrymore was even there, backstage, taking care of Francis Bean) Love >rocked out; she spoke aggressively, wore her babydoll dress, combat >boots, said lots of pro-women things, etc. Late in the show, she decided >to stage dive, just like any guy singer would who could feel the energy >from the crowd. But this crowd, especially the pit-as-usual, was more >than half guys. And when she got carried across that pit, those men began >ripping her clothes, feeling her up, etc. It was all security could do to >get her back, a total struggle. Onstage again, she was pissed, >frustrated, and could only scream into the mic angrily, ???I test every >crowd in every city, and you FAILED!??? and stormed off stage. For all of >her aggression, all of her posturing, all of her proclamations, her >nudity was *not* threatening, as Glenum claims; she remained most >certainly an erotic object to grab and fuck and disrespect. I've never >seen a man experience a stage dive even remotely similar. Moving on to >Tribe 8, Riot Grrrl band made up of all openly-queer women. This was one >of the first shows to shock me. These women got on stage, they had hot >bods that fit ???sexy??? stereotypes. Several of them took off their >shirts and began rocking out. Many of the men didn???t know what the fuck >to do. They just gaped, though some got into the music, moshing a bit, >especially as the shock wore off and the show went on. More women were in >the pit than usual too. But the initial problem for the men and those of >us attuned to seeing women through the male gaze, despite the hardcore >energy of the music (which is what we presumably paid for), was that >these women became grotesque, they were parodies incarnate because these >were women???s bodies with true bare breasts, those sexy orbs (the site >of symbolic sex/sexiness), attached to real monsters: women who were >publicly queer and therefore by default anomalies, performing this killer >music but not as a site for masturbation or fucking. They were truly >threatening, scary and not to be fucked with. Not one guy tried to touch >them, though I???m sure a few had trouble processing/reconciling that >female nudity with being there to rock out. Glenum and Greenberg say >they???re ???describing what they???ve seen???, but based on the >anthology, they seem to have only seen hetero-women performing gender in >grotesque/hybrid/paradoxical ways. Even if they didn???t try to seek out >the work of queer women, I know that Glenum is aware of Dodie Bellamy???s >poetry, which would lead one to imagine that, even if they didn???t >include Bellamy???s work, they would have made a conscious attempt to >seek out and include work by queer-identified women that includes >representations/perspectives of queer women, especially as sites of >resistance /grotesqueness / parody ? not just hetero-women and girls in >thhe making. The ???queer woman??? certainly falls under the category of >???representations of women??? in the public eye that Glenum and >Greenberg define the anthology by. To omit any work of this sort from >this anthology is not only a glaring omission, it???s exclusionary and >does a disservice to the project of the Gurlesque; the anthology narrows >the Gurlesque at great cost. Considering that the kind of performance the >editors describe has long been the staple, almost inherently necessary >work of a queer woman as soon as she owns her queerness out loud, it???s >shocking to exclude any work by those women. I mean, Glenum founds the >basis of her definition on Judith Butler, who obviously ???described??? >gender as performance ? & it???s no coinncidence that the first >theorist to publicly introduce that concept was a lesbian. To make a poor >parallel, this anthology would be akin to editing an anthology of >Experimental American Poetries and only including selections by Language >Poets or Black Mountain poets. You can say it???s ???descriptive??? and >???only??? what you ???noticed??? all you want, but the editors of such >an anthology must have been wearing blinders if that???s all they >include. I remain frustrated because the more I read from discussions >online, the more I see that Glenum keeps conjuring ???queerness??? and >Greenberg claims to have ???coined??? the term ???Gurlesque??? while also >aligning it with Riot Grrrl, but to see no inclusion of the queer roots >of such performance, to not acknowledge the ongoing work of confounding >the notion of ???woman??? via queer perversion / queer women???s >burlesque ? gurlesque is incredible. They may as well mark the >exclusiveness of this project as defined/narrowed through this anthology >and say ???queering the hetero-woman and girl concept by hetero-women???, >which really only smacks of efforts to subvert, not ???queer??? when you >don???t actually include the queer. Just one more note and I???ll stop, >let my frustration go the way of the mostly-silence on this issue: A >whole lot happens when a queer woman frustrates the male gaze that >inspires a very different awareness, which emerges over time for queer >women. This awareness births ideas and performances that are certainly >co-opted and appropriated by hetero-women, and that???s absolutely fine. >From the most basic of signifiers like dykes wearing combat boots and >punking out/shearing their hair to larger behaviors that I will not go >into right now, we have created and given permissions that may not have >happened for a long time for straight women. I???m not trying to own all >of the subversive stuff straight women have tried on or done for >themselves, at all. But I haven???t read anything in all of Glenum???s >and Greenberg???s descriptions that queer women as poets, performers, >mothers, etc, haven???t also been doing/dealing with and adding to the >conversation/culture. Just yesterday, a guy didn???t like what I had to >say about Bukowski on a friggin??? throw-away Facebook post and, knowing >I???m queer, told me to get my ???head out of my cunt???, made lewd >claims about my relations with my ???partner??? (his quotes) in an effort >to delegitimize my relationship, and other shit ? and that was only one >tiny fraction of my experience wiith men reacting to the queer grotesque >monster woman that I am daily. So yes, the queer existence does have a >leg up experientially when it comes to understanding what it means to >perform for that male gaze while simultaneously and paradoxically >excising one???s self from it just by default of primarily loving and >being for and in relation to women ? and thaat kind of performance >certainly does make its way into queer women???s poetry. I just can???t >believe these editors, two smart well-versed and theoretically-inclined >women, didn???t come across any writing that fit that bill or give a >single nod to it, though they unabashedly have no problem referencing the >type of work queer women have historically done and continue to do. Here, >have some poems by Julian Brolaski and tell me how these don???t fit the >Gurlesque - >http://chax.org/eoagh/issue3/issuethree/brolaski.html Or Brenda >Iijima and Stacy Szymaszek -- >>http://chax.org/eoagh/issue3/issuethree/bracyiimaszek.html Or any >number of queer poets I don???t have time right now to sift through but >would have if I were an editor of an anthology such as this? Sorry to be >insistent; I???m still just emotional and pissed. But moreover, I >appreciate your bravery and how constructively you continue to engage me >on this matter, Danielle ? I know you???re tons busy!! I think you hit >the nail on the head in your efforts in the last comment to note / >outline what you see me reacting to. I wonder if others who see it will >speak up (quite a few have backchannled, as noted), or if those involved >will acknowledge this gap. Thanks lots, A >>_______ > >HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: > >http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ > >>THE GURLESQUE - NOT ENOUGH GRRRL? > >http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ > > > >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Thu Mar 25 16:55:10 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 16:55:10 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / "Outlining" / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a group?, What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc In-Reply-To: <235734.2761.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <454450.69444.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <235734.2761.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ah, the retailing of stereotypes is ok, as long as it suits convenience. I'm assuming that you use the royal "we." You can assume that I know you didn't make up the phrase. Could you list other stereotypes that are ok to use despite being misleading and demeaning? I could use the guidance. Mark At 04:39 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: >No, Mark - I don't "think" that. But for the >sake of brevity and ideological discussions, we >do speak about the "male gaze" esp as it frames >"women" (i.e. Laura Mulvey posited long ago that >women also see through a "male gaze" - >ideological discussions. That doesn't mean >women see like men.) - I don't imagine every >man sees through the same exact eye anymore than >I think all lawyers like cigars and cocktails at >five p.m. or all hetero-women want to birth babies. > >Amy > >_______ > >HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: > >http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ > >THE GURLESQUE - NOT ENOUGH GRRRL? > >http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ > > > > >From: Mark Weiss >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & >Views" >Sent: Thu, March 25, 2010 4:31:35 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque >Gurlesque, Describing / "Outlining" / defining >Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a group?, >What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc > >Amy: this is reductionist to a degree that you'd >probably find appalling if it came from a man. I >know you're trafficking in ideological cliches, >but do you honestly believe that there's a thing >called "the male gaze" as opposed to a whole >bunch of different male gazes, or for that >matter such a thing as "the male" as opposed to >a bunch of different "males"? Are you unaware >that there are other variables, like age, class, >education, ethnicity, that modify behavior? >Like, who was in the audiences you describe? >Were they all nonplussed by the "monster >lesbians" or did some think ho hum and others fetishize her? > >Do you really assume that maleness is a whole >lot less complex than femaleness? > >Best, > >Mark > >At 02:08 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: >>The more I read of how this book came to be (I >>started with the Gurlesque anthology first), >>the more invested I become. My opinions are >>taking shape, and yet, only a few, especially >>Danielle Pafunda primarily, join me in >>discussing what is beginning to feel like "my >>issue" -- I invite you to join the discussion >>(to whet your interest, my last response, from >>the comments thread, to Danielle is pasted >>below) -- >>http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ >>Thanks, Amy Good morning, Danielle! Okay, >>I????m going to try to make my contentiotion >>clearer. Let????s start with a Glenum quote >>from Johaohannes blog: ????And Riot Grrr. Think >>zombified Courtney L Love in her babydoll >>nightie, who somehow managed able to make >>female nudity threatening and aggressive rather >>than erotic.??????? Two anecdotes now & then my >>explanation in relation to the Gurlesque >>anthology: I loved Love????s music. Once, I was >>at ot one of her shows, pretty intimate, maybe >>a hundred people or so. (Drew Barrymore was >>even there, backstage, taking care of Francis >>Bean) Love rocked out; she spoke aggressively, >>wore her babydoll dress, combat boots, said >>lots of pro-women things, etc. Late in the >>show, she decided to stage dive, just like any >>guy singer would who could feel the energy from >>the crowd. But this crowd, especially the >>pit-as-usual, was more than half guys. And when >>she got carried across that pit, those men >>began ripping her clothes, feeling her up, etc. >>It was all security could do to get her back, a >>total struggle. Onstage again, she was pissed, >>frustrated, and could only scream into the mic >>angrily, ????I test every crowdwd in every >>city, and you FAILED!?????? and stormed off >>staage. For all of her aggression, all of her >>posturing, all of her proclamations, her nudity >>was *not* threatening, as Glenum claims; she >>remained most certainly an erotic object to >>grab and fuck and disrespect. I've never seen a >>man experience a stage dive even remotely >>similar. Moving on to Tribe 8, Riot Grrrl band >>made up of all openly-queer women. This was one >>of the first shows to shock me. These women got >>on stage, they had hot bods that fit >>????sexy???? stereotyereotypes. Several of them >>took off their shirts and began rocking out. >>Many of the men didn????t know what the fuck to >>do. They jusjust gaped, though some got into >>the music, moshing a bit, especially as the >>shock wore off and the show went on. More women >>were in the pit than usual too. But the initial >>problem for the men and those of us attuned to >>seeing women through the male gaze, despite the >>hardcore energy of the music (which is what we >>presumably paid for), was that these women >>became grotesque, they were parodies incarnate >>because these were women??????s bodies with >>true bare breasts, those sexy orbs (the site >>off symbolic sex/sexiness), attached to real >>monsters: women who were publicly queer and >>therefore by default anomalies, performing this >>killer music but not as a site for masturbation >>or fucking. They were truly threatening, scary >>and not to be fucked with. Not one guy tried to >>touch them, though I????m sure a few had >>trouble processing/reconcilinling that female >>nudity with being there to rock out. Glenum and >>Greenberg say they????re ????describing what >>thhat they????ve seen??????, but based on then >>the anthology, they seem to have only seen >>hetero-women performing gender in >>grotesque/hybrid/paradoxical ways. Even if they >>didn???????t try to seek out the work of queer >>women, I know that Glenum is aware of Dodie >>Bellamy????s poetry, which would lead on one to >>imagine that, even if they didn????t include >>BelBellamy????s work, they would have made a >>conscious attempempt to seek out and include >>work by queer-identified women that includes >>representations/perspectives of queer women, >>especially as sites of resistance >>/grotesqueness / parody ? not just hetero-women >>and girls inn thhe making. The ????queer >>woman?????????? certainly falls under the >>category of ????representatations of >>women?????? in the public eye that Glenum and >>Greenberg define the anthology by. To omit any >>work of this sort from this anthology is not >>only a glaring omission, it????s >>excexclusionary and does a disservice to the >>project of the Gurlesque; the anthology narrows >>the Gurlesque at great cost. Considering that >>the kind of performance the editors describe >>has long been the staple, almost inherently >>necessary work of a queer woman as soon as she >>owns her queerness out loud, it????s shocking >>to exclude any work by those we women. I mean, >>Glenum founds the basis of her definition on >>Judith Butler, who obviously >>????described?????? gen gender as performance ? >>& it????s no coinncidencidence that the first >>theorist to publicly introduce that concept was >>a lesbian. To make a poor parallel, this >>anthology would be akin to editing an anthology >>of Experimental American Poetries and only >>including selections by Language Poets or Black >>Mountain poets. You can say it?????s >>????descriptive?????? and ? and ????only?????? >>what you ??? ??????noticed?????? all you want, >>but the editors of suchch an anthology must >>have been wearing blinders if that???????s all >>they include. I remain frustrated because the >>more I read from discussions online, the more I >>see that Glenum keeps conjuring >>????queerness?????? and Greenberg claims to to >>have ????coined?????? the term ??? >>??????Gurlesque?????? while also aligning it >>withth Riot Grrrl, but to see no inclusion of >>the queer roots of such performance, to not >>acknowledge the ongoing work of confounding the >>notion of ????woman?????? via queer perversion >>/ queequeer women????s burlesque ? gurlesque is >>incredicredible. They may as well mark the >>exclusiveness of this project as >>defined/narrowed through this anthology and say >>????queering the e hetero-woman and girl >>concept by hetero-women??????, whhich really >>only smacks of efforts to subvert, not >>????queeeer?????? when you don????t actually >>ally include the queer. Just one more note and >>I????ll stop,op, let my frustration go the way >>of the mostly-silence on this issue: A whole >>lot happens when a queer woman frustrates the >>male gaze that inspires a very different >>awareness, which emerges over time for queer >>women. This awareness births ideas and >>performances that are certainly co-opted and >>appropriated by hetero-women, and that????s >>absoluteltely fine. From the most basic of >>signifiers like dykes wearing combat boots and >>punking out/shearing their hair to larger >>behaviors that I will not go into right now, we >>have created and given permissions that may not >>have happened for a long time for straight >>women. I????m??m not trying to own all of the >>subversive stuff straight women have tried on >>or done for themselves, at all. But I >>haven????t rt read anything in all of >>Glenum????s and Greenberg?rg????s descriptions >>that queer women as poets, performers,rs, >>mothers, etc, haven????t also been >>doing/dealing witwith and adding to the >>conversation/culture. Just yesterday, a guy >>didn????t like what I had to say about Bukowski >>on a friggingin???? throw-away Facebook post >>and, knowing I?????????m queer, told me to get >>my ????head out of of my cunt??????, made lewd >>claims about my relations withh my >>????partner?????? (his quotes) in ann an effort >>to delegitimize my relationship, and other shit >>? and thaat was only one tiny fraction of my >>experience wiith men reacting to the queer >>grotesque monster woman that I am daily. So >>yes, the queer existence does have a leg up >>experientially when it comes to understanding >>what it means to perform for that male gaze >>while simultaneously and paradoxically excising >>one????s self from it just by default of of >>primarily loving and being for and in relation >>to women ? and thaaat kind of performance >>certainly does make its way into queer >>women????s poetry. I just can????t believe >>tlieve these editors, two smart well-versed and >>theoretically-inclined women, didn????t come >>across any writing that fit that bill or gi >>give a single nod to it, though they >>unabashedly have no problem referencing the >>type of work queer women have historically done >>and continue to do. Here, have some poems by >>Julian Brolaski and tell me how these don????t fit the Gurlesque - > >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of >Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's >Random House Book of Twentieth Century French >Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively >broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside >the United States and also created a superb >collection of foreign poems in English. There is >nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Thu Mar 25 17:07:11 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 17:07:11 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / "Outlining" / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a group?, What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc In-Reply-To: <898089.6829.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <454450.69444.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <898089.6829.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I don't doubt that one could find a lot of men who would react as you assume, but of the three very young men who comment here one says "they really rock," one just says (in response, apparently, to a question) he was a little scared (why and in what way isn't specified), and one says he was scared because it offended his morality (because of the nudity? the gayness? quien sabe?). In both of the latter cases I'd guess that the word scared (as opposed to confused, surprised, etc) was supplied by the questioner. To argue from a stereotypical male gaze is to stereotype all males as potential sexual criminals. On another list there was a long complex discussion about what language people with disabilities find offensive. The conclusion seemed to be that a bit of nuance goes a long way. The same applies here. Even men have feelings. Mark At 04:50 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: >By the way to illustrate what I'm talking >about, I just found a few men who offer their >responses to Tribe 8 at the 1:25 mark: > >http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxPwCdw9GXA > >Enjoy, > >Amy > >_______ > >HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: > >http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ > >THE GURLESQUE - NOT ENOUGH GRRRL? > >http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ > > > > >From: Mark Weiss >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & >Views" >Sent: Thu, March 25, 2010 4:31:35 PM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque >Gurlesque, Describing / "Outlining" / defining >Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a group?, >What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc > >Amy: this is reductionist to a degree that you'd >probably find appalling if it came from a man. I >know you're trafficking in ideological cliches, >but do you honestly believe that there's a thing >called "the male gaze" as opposed to a whole >bunch of different male gazes, or for that >matter such a thing as "the male" as opposed to >a bunch of different "males"? Are you unaware >that there are other variables, like age, class, >education, ethnicity, that modify behavior? >Like, who was in the audiences you describe? >Were they all nonplussed by the "monster >lesbians" or did some think ho hum and others fetishize her? > >Do you really assume that maleness is a whole >lot less complex than femaleness? > >Best, > >Mark > >At 02:08 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: >>The more I read of how this book came to be (I >>started with the Gurlesque anthology first), >>the more invested I become. My opinions are >>taking shape, and yet, only a few, especially >>Danielle Pafunda primarily, join me in >>discussing what is beginning to feel like "my >>issue" -- I invite you to join the discussion >>(to whet your interest, my last response, from >>the comments thread, to Danielle is pasted >>below) -- >>http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ >>Thanks, Amy Good morning, Danielle! Okay, >>I????m going to try to make my my contention >>clearer. Let????s start with a Glenum quote te >>from Johannes blog: ????And Riot Grrr. Think >>zombified C Courtney Love in her babydoll >>nightie, who somehow managed able to make >>female nudity threatening and aggressive rather >>than erotic.??????? Two anecdotes now & then my >>explanation in relation to the Gurlesque >>anthology: I loved Love????s music. Once, I wI >>was at one of her shows, pretty intimate, maybe >>a hundred people or so. (Drew Barrymore was >>even there, backstage, taking care of Francis >>Bean) Love rocked out; she spoke aggressively, >>wore her babydoll dress, combat boots, said >>lots of pro-women things, etc. Late in the >>show, she decided to stage dive, just like any >>guy singer would who could feel the energy from >>the crowd. But this crowd, especially the >>pit-as-usual, was more than half guys. And when >>she got carried across that pit, those men >>began ripping her clothes, feeling her up, etc. >>It was all security could do to get her back, a >>total struggle. Onstage again, she was pissed, >>frustrated, and could only scream into the mic >>angrily, ????I test everery crowd in every >>city, and you FAILED!?????? and stormeed off >>stage. For all of her aggression, all of her >>posturing, all of her proclamations, her nudity >>was *not* threatening, as Glenum claims; she >>remained most certainly an erotic object to >>grab and fuck and disrespect. I've never seen a >>man experience a stage dive even remotely >>similar. Moving on to Tribe 8, Riot Grrrl band >>made up of all openly-queer women. This was one >>of the first shows to shock me. These women got >>on stage, they had hot bods that fit >>????sexy???? ste?? stereotypes. Several of them >>took off their shirts and began rocking out. >>Many of the men didn????t know what the fuck to >>do. TheThey just gaped, though some got into >>the music, moshing a bit, especially as the >>shock wore off and the show went on. More women >>were in the pit than usual too. But the initial >>problem for the men and those of us attuned to >>seeing women through the male gaze, despite the >>hardcore energy of the music (which is what we >>presumably paid for), was that these women >>became grotesque, they were parodies incarnate >>because these were women????s bodies with true >>bare breasts, those sexy orbs (the sitsite of >>symbolic sex/sexiness), attached to real >>monsters: women who were publicly queer and >>therefore by default anomalies, performing this >>killer music but not as a site for masturbation >>or fucking. They were truly threatening, scary >>and not to be fucked with. Not one guy tried to >>touch them, though I????m sure a few had >>trouble processing/re/reconciling that female >>nudity with being there to rock out. Glenum and >>Greenberg say they????re ????describingribing >>what they????ve seen??????, but base based on >>the anthology, they seem to have only seen >>hetero-women performing gender in >>grotesque/hybrid/paradoxical ways. Even if they >>didn??????t try to seek out the work of queer >>women, I know that Glenumm is aware of Dodie >>Bellamy????s poetry, which would ld lead one to >>imagine that, even if they didn????t incluclude >>Bellamy????s work, they would have made a >>conscious us attempt to seek out and include >>work by queer-identified women that includes >>representations/perspectives of queer women, >>especially as sites of resistance >>/grotesqueness / parody ? not just hetero-women >>and ggirls in thhe making. The ????queer >>woman?????????? certainly falls under the >>category of ????reprpresentations of >>women?????? in the public eye that Glenum and >>Greenberg define the anthology by. To omit any >>work of this sort from this anthology is not >>only a glaring omission, it???????s >>exclusionary and does a disservice to the >>project of the Gurlesque; the anthology narrows >>the Gurlesque at great cost. Considering that >>the kind of performance the editors describe >>has long been the staple, almost inherently >>necessary work of a queer woman as soon as she >>owns her queerness out loud, it????s shocking >>to exclude any work by by those women. I mean, >>Glenum founds the basis of her definition on >>Judith Butler, who obviously >>????described?????????? gender as performance ? >>& it????s no s no coinncidence that the first >>theorist to publicly introduce that concept was >>a lesbian. To make a poor parallel, this >>anthology would be akin to editing an anthology >>of Experimental American Poetries and only >>including selections by Language Poets or Black >>Mountain poets. You can say it????s >>????descriptive?????e???????? and >>????only?????? what you ??u ????noticed?????? >>all you want, but the editoritors of such an >>anthology must have been wearing blinders if >>that??????s all they include. I remain >>frustrated because the more II read from >>discussions online, the more I see that Glenum >>keeps conjuring ????queerness?????? and >>Greenberg cla claims to have ????coined?????? >>the term erm ????Gurlesque?????? while also >>aligningning it with Riot Grrrl, but to see no >>inclusion of the queer roots of such >>performance, to not acknowledge the ongoing >>work of confounding the notion of >>????woman?????? via queer perversiorsion / >>queer women????s burlesque ? gurlesque isue is >>incredible. They may as well mark the >>exclusiveness of this project as >>defined/narrowed through this anthology and say >>????queerering the hetero-woman and girl >>concept by hetero-women???????, which really >>only smacks of efforts to subvert, not >>?????queer?????? when you don????t?????t >>actually include the queer. Just one more note >>and I???????ll stop, let my frustration go the >>way of the mostly-silence on this issue: A >>whole lot happens when a queer woman frustrates >>the male gaze that inspires a very different >>awareness, which emerges over time for queer >>women. This awareness births ideas and >>performances that are certainly co-opted and >>appropriated by hetero-women, and that???????s >>absolutely fine. From the most basic of >>signifiers like dykes wearing combat boots and >>punking out/shearing their hair to larger >>behaviors that I will not go into right now, we >>have created and given permissions that may not >>have happened for a long time for straight >>women. I??????m not trying to own all of the >>subversive stuff straight wwomen have tried on >>or done for themselves, at all. But I >>haven??????t read anything in all of >>Glenum????s ???s and Greenberg????s >>descriptions that queer women as poepoets, >>performers, mothers, etc, haven????t also been >>do doing/dealing with and adding to the >>conversation/culture. Just yesterday, a guy >>didn????t like what I had to say about >>Bukowskiski on a friggin???? throw-away >>Facebook post and, knowinging I????m queer, >>told me to get my ??????????head out of my >>cunt??????, made lewd claims about myy >>relations with my ????partner?????? (hi (his >>quotes) in an effort to delegitimize my >>relationship, and other shit ? and that was >>only one tiny fraction of my experience wiith >>men reacting to the queer grotesque monster >>woman that I am daily. So yes, the queer >>existence does have a leg up experientially >>when it comes to understanding what it means to >>perform for that male gaze while simultaneously >>and paradoxically excising one????s self from >>it ju just by default of primarily loving and >>being for and in relation to women ? and thaat >>kind of performance certainly does make its way >>into queer women????s poetry. I just >>can???????????t believe these editors, two >>smart well-versed and theoretically-inclined >>women, didn????t come across any writing that >>at fit that bill or give a single nod to it, >>though they unabashedly have no problem >>referencing the type of work queer women have >>historically done and continue to do. Here, >>have some poems by Julian Brolaski and tell me >>how these don????t fit the Gurlesque - >>http://chax.org/eoagh/issue3/issuethree/brolaski.html >>Or Brenda Iijima and Stacy Szymaszek -- >>http://chax.org/eoagh/issue3/issuethree/bracyiimaszek.html >>Or any number of queer poets I don????t have >>time right now to sift throurough but would >>have if I were an editor of an anthology such >>as this??? Sorry to be insistent; I????m still >>just emotionaonal and pissed. But moreover, I >>appreciate your bravery and how constructively >>you continue to engage me on this matter, >>Danielle ? I know yyou????re tons busy!! I >>think you hit the nail on the he head in your >>efforts in the last comment to note / outline >>what you see me reacting to. I wonder if others >>who see it will speak up (quite a few have >>backchannled, as noted), or if those involved >>will acknowledge this gap. Thanks lots, A >>_______ >> >>HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: >> >>http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ >> >>THE GURLESQUE - NOT ENOUGH GRRRL? >> >>http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ >> >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of >Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's >Random House Book of Twentieth Century French >Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively >broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside >the United States and also created a superb >collection of foreign poems in English. There is >nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Mar 25 17:21:17 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 14:21:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / Outlining / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What s a group?, What s in a name? What s in a book?, etc Message-ID: <583493.29035.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> If the male gaze doesn t suit you, Mark, then don t use it. But you ve got a lot of policing ahead of you. Good luck with that project. I think you re heading down the road of eliminating loads of other ideological characterizations to boot. God/monkey speed. And energy. Amy On Thu Mar 25th, 2010 4:55 PM EDT Mark Weiss wrote: >Ah, the retailing of stereotypes is ok, as long as it suits convenience. > >I'm assuming that you use the royal "we." You can assume that I know you didn't make up the phrase. > >Could you list other stereotypes that are ok to use despite being misleading and demeaning? I could use the guidance. > >Mark > >At 04:39 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: >> No, Mark - I don't "think" that. But for the sake of brevity and ideological discussions, we do speak about the "male gaze" esp as it frames "women" (i.e. Laura Mulvey posited long ago that women also see through a "male gaze" - ideological discussions. That doesn't mean women see like men.) - I don't imagine every man sees through the same exact eye anymore than I think all lawyers like cigars and cocktails at five p.m. or all hetero-women want to birth babies. >> >> Amy >> >> _______ >> >> HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: >> >> http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ >> >> THE GURLESQUE - NOT ENOUGH GRRRL? >> >> http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ >> >> >> >> >> From: Mark Weiss >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> Sent: Thu, March 25, 2010 4:31:35 PM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / "Outlining" / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a group?, What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc >> >> Amy: this is reductionist to a degree that you'd probably find appalling if it came from a man. I know you're trafficking in ideological cliches, but do you honestly believe that there's a thing called "the male gaze" as opposed to a whole bunch of different male gazes, or for that matter such a thing as "the male" as opposed to a bunch of different "males"? Are you unaware that there are other variables, like age, class, education, ethnicity, that modify behavior? Like, who was in the audiences you describe? Were they all nonplussed by the "monster lesbians" or did some think ho hum and others fetishize her? >> >> Do you really assume that maleness is a whole lot less complex than femaleness? >> >> Best, >> >> Mark >> >> At 02:08 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: >>> The more I read of how this book came to be (I started with the Gurlesque anthology first), the more invested I become. My opinions are taking shape, and yet, only a few, especially Danielle Pafunda primarily, join me in discussing what is beginning to feel like "my issue" -- I invite you to join the discussion (to whet your interest, my last response, from the comments thread, to Danielle is pasted below) -- http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ Thanks, Amy Good morning, Danielle! Okay, I????m going to try to make my contentiotion clearer. Let????s start with a Glenum quote from Johaohannes blog: ????And Riot Grrr. Think zombified Courtney L Love in her babydoll nightie, who somehow managed able to make female nudity threatening and aggressive rather than erotic.??????? Two anecdotes now & then my explanation in relation to the Gurlesque anthology: I loved Love????s music. Once, I was at ot one of her shows, pretty intimate, maybe a hundred people or so. (Drew Barrymore was even there, backstage, taking care of Francis Bean) Love rocked out; she spoke aggressively, wore her babydoll dress, combat boots, said lots of pro-women things, etc. Late in the show, she decided to stage dive, just like any guy singer would who could feel the energy from the crowd. But this crowd, especially the pit-as-usual, was more than half guys. And when she got carried across that pit, those men began ripping her clothes, feeling her up, etc. It was all security could do to get her back, a total struggle. Onstage again, she was pissed, frustrated, and could only scream into the mic angrily, ????I test every crowdwd in every city, and you FAILED!?????? and stormed off staage. For all of her aggression, all of her posturing, all of her proclamations, her nudity was *not* threatening, as Glenum claims; she remained most certainly an erotic object to grab and fuck and disrespect. I've never seen a man experience a stage dive even remotely similar. Moving on to Tribe 8, Riot Grrrl band made up of all openly-queer women. This was one of the first shows to shock me. These women got on stage, they had hot bods that fit ????sexy???? stereotyereotypes. Several of them took off their shirts and began rocking out. Many of the men didn????t know what the fuck to do. They jusjust gaped, though some got into the music, moshing a bit, especially as the shock wore off and the show went on. More women were in the pit than usual too. But the initial problem for the men and those of us attuned to seeing women through the male gaze, despite the hardcore energy of the music (which is what we presumably paid for), was that these women became grotesque, they were parodies incarnate because these were women??????s bodies with true bare breasts, those sexy orbs (the site off symbolic sex/sexiness), attached to real monsters: women who were publicly queer and therefore by default anomalies, performing this killer music but not as a site for masturbation or fucking. They were truly threatening, scary and not to be fucked with. Not one guy tried to touch them, though I????m sure a few had trouble processing/reconcilinling that female nudity with being there to rock out. Glenum and Greenberg say they????re ????describing what thhat they????ve seen??????, but based on then the anthology, they seem to have only seen hetero-women performing gender in grotesque/hybrid/paradoxical ways. Even if they didn???????t try to seek out the work of queer women, I know that Glenum is aware of Dodie Bellamy????s poetry, which would lead on one to imagine that, even if they didn????t include BelBellamy????s work, they would have made a conscious attempempt to seek out and include work by queer-identified women that includes representations/perspectives of queer women, especially as sites of resistance /grotesqueness / parody ? not just hetero-women and girls inn thhe making. The ????queer woman?????????? certainly falls under the category of ????representatations of women?????? in the public eye that Glenum and Greenberg define the anthology by. To omit any work of this sort from this anthology is not only a glaring omission, it????s excexclusionary and does a disservice to the project of the Gurlesque; the anthology narrows the Gurlesque at great cost. Considering that the kind of performance the editors describe has long been the staple, almost inherently necessary work of a queer woman as soon as she owns her queerness out loud, it????s shocking to exclude any work by those we women. I mean, Glenum founds the basis of her definition on Judith Butler, who obviously ????described?????? gen gender as performance ? & it????s no coinncidencidence that the first theorist to publicly introduce that concept was a lesbian. To make a poor parallel, this anthology would be akin to editing an anthology of Experimental American Poetries and only including selections by Language Poets or Black Mountain poets. You can say it?????s ????descriptive?????? and ? and ????only?????? what you ??? ??????noticed?????? all you want, but the editors of suchch an anthology must have been wearing blinders if that???????s all they include. I remain frustrated because the more I read from discussions online, the more I see that Glenum keeps conjuring ????queerness?????? and Greenberg claims to to have ????coined?????? the term ??? ??????Gurlesque?????? while also aligning it withth Riot Grrrl, but to see no inclusion of the queer roots of such performance, to not acknowledge the ongoing work of confounding the notion of ????woman?????? via queer perversion / queequeer women????s burlesque ? gurlesque is incredicredible. They may as well mark the exclusiveness of this project as defined/narrowed through this anthology and say ????queering the e hetero-woman and girl concept by hetero-women??????, whhich really only smacks of efforts to subvert, not ????queeeer?????? when you don????t actually ally include the queer. Just one more note and I????ll stop,op, let my frustration go the way of the mostly-silence on this issue: A whole lot happens when a queer woman frustrates the male gaze that inspires a very different awareness, which emerges over time for queer women. This awareness births ideas and performances that are certainly co-opted and appropriated by hetero-women, and that????s absoluteltely fine. From the most basic of signifiers like dykes wearing combat boots and punking out/shearing their hair to larger behaviors that I will not go into right now, we have created and given permissions that may not have happened for a long time for straight women. I????m??m not trying to own all of the subversive stuff straight women have tried on or done for themselves, at all. But I haven????t rt read anything in all of Glenum????s and Greenberg?rg????s descriptions that queer women as poets, performers,rs, mothers, etc, haven????t also been doing/dealing witwith and adding to the conversation/culture. Just yesterday, a guy didn????t like what I had to say about Bukowski on a friggingin???? throw-away Facebook post and, knowing I?????????m queer, told me to get my ????head out of of my cunt??????, made lewd claims about my relations withh my ????partner?????? (his quotes) in ann an effort to delegitimize my relationship, and other shit ? and thaat was only one tiny fraction of my experience wiith men reacting to the queer grotesque monster woman that I am daily. So yes, the queer existence does have a leg up experientially when it comes to understanding what it means to perform for that male gaze while simultaneously and paradoxically excising one????s self from it just by default of of primarily loving and being for and in relation to women ? and thaaat kind of performance certainly does make its way into queer women????s poetry. I just can????t believe tlieve these editors, two smart well-versed and theoretically-inclined women, didn????t come across any writing that fit that bill or gi give a single nod to it, though they unabashedly have no problem referencing the type of work queer women have historically done and continue to do. Here, have some poems by Julian Brolaski and tell me how these don????t fit the Gurlesque - >> >> Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >> http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Mar 25 17:29:46 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 14:29:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / Outlining / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What s a group?, What s in a name? What s in a book?, etc Message-ID: <496606.93162.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Mark, Your contentiousness-as-usual is as boring as it is reductive. You re intentionally misreading my post bc you have a bone to pick with the women on that other list . I clearly pointing out a few varying responses to the band, including how some of the men were shocked (myself included as noted), some went about moshing as usual and how some warmed up as the show progressed. What else would you like me to include? How this one picked his nose, that one took a phone call, another one left, another one fantasized, another one tied his shoe, ad nauseum? I don t have the energy for such re-framing-meant-to-distract. How about I just say, you win: the male gaze is so so bad and go spank my image in the mirror? Or shall I go yell at the women on the other list? Would that alleviate you? Because I m not going to stop saying male gaze just because you dog me and mischaracterize what I wrote. Amy On Thu Mar 25th, 2010 5:07 PM EDT Mark Weiss wrote: >I don't doubt that one could find a lot of men who would react as you assume, but of the three very young men who comment here one says "they really rock," one just says (in response, apparently, to a question) he was a little scared (why and in what way isn't specified), and one says he was scared because it offended his morality (because of the nudity? the gayness? quien sabe?). In both of the latter cases I'd guess that the word scared (as opposed to confused, surprised, etc) was supplied by the questioner. > >To argue from a stereotypical male gaze is to stereotype all males as potential sexual criminals. > >On another list there was a long complex discussion about what language people with disabilities find offensive. The conclusion seemed to be that a bit of nuance goes a long way. The same applies here. Even men have feelings. > >Mark > >At 04:50 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: >> By the way to illustrate what I'm talking about, I just found a few men who offer their responses to Tribe 8 at the 1:25 mark: >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxPwCdw9GXA >> >> Enjoy, >> >> Amy >> >> _______ >> >> HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: >> >> http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ >> >> THE GURLESQUE - NOT ENOUGH GRRRL? >> >> http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ >> >> >> >> >> From: Mark Weiss >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> Sent: Thu, March 25, 2010 4:31:35 PM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / "Outlining" / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a group?, What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc >> >> Amy: this is reductionist to a degree that you'd probably find appalling if it came from a man. I know you're trafficking in ideological cliches, but do you honestly believe that there's a thing called "the male gaze" as opposed to a whole bunch of different male gazes, or for that matter such a thing as "the male" as opposed to a bunch of different "males"? Are you unaware that there are other variables, like age, class, education, ethnicity, that modify behavior? Like, who was in the audiences you describe? Were they all nonplussed by the "monster lesbians" or did some think ho hum and others fetishize her? >> >> Do you really assume that maleness is a whole lot less complex than femaleness? >> >> Best, >> >> Mark >> >> At 02:08 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: >>> The more I read of how this book came to be (I started with the Gurlesque anthology first), the more invested I become. My opinions are taking shape, and yet, only a few, especially Danielle Pafunda primarily, join me in discussing what is beginning to feel like "my issue" -- I invite you to join the discussion (to whet your interest, my last response, from the comments thread, to Danielle is pasted below) -- http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ Thanks, Amy Good morning, Danielle! Okay, I????m going to try to make my my contention clearer. Let????s start with a Glenum quote te from Johannes blog: ????And Riot Grrr. Think zombified C Courtney Love in her babydoll nightie, who somehow managed able to make female nudity threatening and aggressive rather than erotic.??????? Two anecdotes now & then my explanation in relation to the Gurlesque anthology: I loved Love????s music. Once, I wI was at one of her shows, pretty intimate, maybe a hundred people or so. (Drew Barrymore was even there, backstage, taking care of Francis Bean) Love rocked out; she spoke aggressively, wore her babydoll dress, combat boots, said lots of pro-women things, etc. Late in the show, she decided to stage dive, just like any guy singer would who could feel the energy from the crowd. But this crowd, especially the pit-as-usual, was more than half guys. And when she got carried across that pit, those men began ripping her clothes, feeling her up, etc. It was all security could do to get her back, a total struggle. Onstage again, she was pissed, frustrated, and could only scream into the mic angrily, ????I test everery crowd in every city, and you FAILED!?????? and stormeed off stage. For all of her aggression, all of her posturing, all of her proclamations, her nudity was *not* threatening, as Glenum claims; she remained most certainly an erotic object to grab and fuck and disrespect. I've never seen a man experience a stage dive even remotely similar. Moving on to Tribe 8, Riot Grrrl band made up of all openly-queer women. This was one of the first shows to shock me. These women got on stage, they had hot bods that fit ????sexy???? ste?? stereotypes. Several of them took off their shirts and began rocking out. Many of the men didn????t know what the fuck to do. TheThey just gaped, though some got into the music, moshing a bit, especially as the shock wore off and the show went on. More women were in the pit than usual too. But the initial problem for the men and those of us attuned to seeing women through the male gaze, despite the hardcore energy of the music (which is what we presumably paid for), was that these women became grotesque, they were parodies incarnate because these were women????s bodies with true bare breasts, those sexy orbs (the sitsite of symbolic sex/sexiness), attached to real monsters: women who were publicly queer and therefore by default anomalies, performing this killer music but not as a site for masturbation or fucking. They were truly threatening, scary and not to be fucked with. Not one guy tried to touch them, though I????m sure a few had trouble processing/re/reconciling that female nudity with being there to rock out. Glenum and Greenberg say they????re ????describingribing what they????ve seen??????, but base based on the anthology, they seem to have only seen hetero-women performing gender in grotesque/hybrid/paradoxical ways. Even if they didn??????t try to seek out the work of queer women, I know that Glenumm is aware of Dodie Bellamy????s poetry, which would ld lead one to imagine that, even if they didn????t incluclude Bellamy????s work, they would have made a conscious us attempt to seek out and include work by queer-identified women that includes representations/perspectives of queer women, especially as sites of resistance /grotesqueness / parody ? not just hetero-women and ggirls in thhe making. The ????queer woman?????????? certainly falls under the category of ????reprpresentations of women?????? in the public eye that Glenum and Greenberg define the anthology by. To omit any work of this sort from this anthology is not only a glaring omission, it???????s exclusionary and does a disservice to the project of the Gurlesque; the anthology narrows the Gurlesque at great cost. Considering that the kind of performance the editors describe has long been the staple, almost inherently necessary work of a queer woman as soon as she owns her queerness out loud, it????s shocking to exclude any work by by those women. I mean, Glenum founds the basis of her definition on Judith Butler, who obviously ????described?????????? gender as performance ? & it????s no s no coinncidence that the first theorist to publicly introduce that concept was a lesbian. To make a poor parallel, this anthology would be akin to editing an anthology of Experimental American Poetries and only including selections by Language Poets or Black Mountain poets. You can say it????s ????descriptive?????e???????? and ????only?????? what you ??u ????noticed?????? all you want, but the editoritors of such an anthology must have been wearing blinders if that??????s all they include. I remain frustrated because the more II read from discussions online, the more I see that Glenum keeps conjuring ????queerness?????? and Greenberg cla claims to have ????coined?????? the term erm ????Gurlesque?????? while also aligningning it with Riot Grrrl, but to see no inclusion of the queer roots of such performance, to not acknowledge the ongoing work of confounding the notion of ????woman?????? via queer perversiorsion / queer women????s burlesque ? gurlesque isue is incredible. They may as well mark the exclusiveness of this project as defined/narrowed through this anthology and say ????queerering the hetero-woman and girl concept by hetero-women???????, which really only smacks of efforts to subvert, not ?????queer?????? when you don????t?????t actually include the queer. Just one more note and I???????ll stop, let my frustration go the way of the mostly-silence on this issue: A whole lot happens when a queer woman frustrates the male gaze that inspires a very different awareness, which emerges over time for queer women. This awareness births ideas and performances that are certainly co-opted and appropriated by hetero-women, and that???????s absolutely fine. From the most basic of signifiers like dykes wearing combat boots and punking out/shearing their hair to larger behaviors that I will not go into right now, we have created and given permissions that may not have happened for a long time for straight women. I??????m not trying to own all of the subversive stuff straight wwomen have tried on or done for themselves, at all. But I haven??????t read anything in all of Glenum????s ???s and Greenberg????s descriptions that queer women as poepoets, performers, mothers, etc, haven????t also been do doing/dealing with and adding to the conversation/culture. Just yesterday, a guy didn????t like what I had to say about Bukowskiski on a friggin???? throw-away Facebook post and, knowinging I????m queer, told me to get my ??????????head out of my cunt??????, made lewd claims about myy relations with my ????partner?????? (hi (his quotes) in an effort to delegitimize my relationship, and other shit ? and that was only one tiny fraction of my experience wiith men reacting to the queer grotesque monster woman that I am daily. So yes, the queer existence does have a leg up experientially when it comes to understanding what it means to perform for that male gaze while simultaneously and paradoxically excising one????s self from it ju just by default of primarily loving and being for and in relation to women ? and thaat kind of performance certainly does make its way into queer women????s poetry. I just can???????????t believe these editors, two smart well-versed and theoretically-inclined women, didn????t come across any writing that at fit that bill or give a single nod to it, though they unabashedly have no problem referencing the type of work queer women have historically done and continue to do. Here, have some poems by Julian Brolaski and tell me how these don????t fit the Gurlesque - http://chax.org/eoagh/issue3/issuethree/brolaski.html Or Brenda Iijima and Stacy Szymaszek -- http://chax.org/eoagh/issue3/issuethree/bracyiimaszek.html Or any number of queer poets I don????t have time right now to sift throurough but would have if I were an editor of an anthology such as this??? Sorry to be insistent; I????m still just emotionaonal and pissed. But moreover, I appreciate your bravery and how constructively you continue to engage me on this matter, Danielle ? I know yyou????re tons busy!! I think you hit the nail on the he head in your efforts in the last comment to note / outline what you see me reacting to. I wonder if others who see it will speak up (quite a few have backchannled, as noted), or if those involved will acknowledge this gap. Thanks lots, A >>> _______ >>> >>> HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: >>> >>> http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ >>> >>> THE GURLESQUE - NOT ENOUGH GRRRL? >>> >>> http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >> http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation From junction at earthlink.net Thu Mar 25 17:31:17 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 17:31:17 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / Outlining / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What s a group?, What s in a name? What s in a book?, etc In-Reply-To: <583493.29035.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <583493.29035.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I'm content to take on one at a time. Hey, if it makes you just a little queasy when you use it, all to the good. If it doesn't you're in serious trouble. A lot of ideological characterizations have of course been eliminated, or at least very publicly challenged, not least by feminists, to the benefit of us all. I thought to do so was what intellectuals sign on for. Mark At 05:21 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: >If the male gaze doesn t suit you, Mark, then >don t use it. But you ve got a lot of policing >ahead of you. Good luck with that project. I >think you re heading down the road of >eliminating loads of other ideological >characterizations to boot. God/monkey speed. And energy. > >Amy > >On Thu Mar 25th, 2010 4:55 PM EDT Mark Weiss wrote: > > >Ah, the retailing of stereotypes is ok, as long as it suits convenience. > > > >I'm assuming that you use the royal "we." You > can assume that I know you didn't make up the phrase. > > > >Could you list other stereotypes that are ok > to use despite being misleading and demeaning? I could use the guidance. > > > >Mark > > > >At 04:39 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: > >> No, Mark - I don't "think" that. But for > the sake of brevity and ideological > discussions, we do speak about the "male gaze" > esp as it frames "women" (i.e. Laura Mulvey > posited long ago that women also see through a > "male gaze" - ideological discussions. That > doesn't mean women see like men.) - I don't > imagine every man sees through the same exact > eye anymore than I think all lawyers like > cigars and cocktails at five p.m. or all hetero-women want to birth babies. > >> > >> Amy > >> > >> _______ > >> > >> HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: > >> > >> > http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ > >> > >> THE GURLESQUE - NOT ENOUGH GRRRL? > >> > >> > http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> From: Mark Weiss > >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > & Views" > >> Sent: Thu, March 25, 2010 4:31:35 PM > >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, > Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / "Outlining" / > defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a > group?, What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc > >> > >> Amy: this is reductionist to a degree that > you'd probably find appalling if it came from a > man. I know you're trafficking in ideological > cliches, but do you honestly believe that > there's a thing called "the male gaze" as > opposed to a whole bunch of different male > gazes, or for that matter such a thing as "the > male" as opposed to a bunch of different > "males"? Are you unaware that there are other > variables, like age, class, education, > ethnicity, that modify behavior? Like, who was > in the audiences you describe? Were they all > nonplussed by the "monster lesbians" or did > some think ho hum and others fetishize her? > >> > >> Do you really assume that maleness is a > whole lot less complex than femaleness? > >> > >> Best, > >> > >> Mark > >> > >> At 02:08 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: > >>> The more I read of how this book came to be > (I started with the Gurlesque anthology first), > the more invested I become. My opinions are > taking shape, and yet, only a few, especially > Danielle Pafunda primarily, join me in > discussing what is beginning to feel like "my > issue" -- I invite you to join the discussion > (to whet your interest, my last response, from > the comments thread, to Danielle is pasted > below) -- > http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ > Thanks, Amy Good morning, Danielle! Okay, > I??????m going to try to make my contentiotion > clearer. Let??????s start with a Glenum quote > from Johaohannes blog: ??????And Riot Grrr. > Think zombified Courtney L Love in her babydoll > nightie, who somehow managed able to make > female nudity threatening and aggressive rather > than erotic.????????????? Two anecdotes now & > then my explanation in relation to the Gurlesque > Gurlesque > anthology: I loved Love??????s music. Once, I > was at ot one of her shows, pretty intimate, > maybe a hundred people or so. (Drew Barrymore > was even there, backstage, taking care of > Francis Bean) Love rocked out; she spoke > aggressively, wore her babydoll dress, combat > boots, said lots of pro-women things, etc. Late > in the show, she decided to stage dive, just > like any guy singer would who could feel the > energy from the crowd. But this crowd, > especially the pit-as-usual, was more than half > guys. And when she got carried across that pit, > those men began ripping her clothes, feeling > her up, etc. It was all security could do to > get her back, a total struggle. Onstage again, > she was pissed, frustrated, and could only > scream into the mic angrily, ??????I test every > crowdwd in every city, and you > FAILED!??????????? and stormed off staage. For > all of her aggression, all of her posturing, > all of her proclamations, her nudity was *not* threatening, as >ng, as > Glenum claims; she remained most certainly an > erotic object to grab and fuck and disrespect. > I've never seen a man experience a stage dive > even remotely similar. Moving on to Tribe 8, > Riot Grrrl band made up of all openly-queer > women. This was one of the first shows to shock > me. These women got on stage, they had hot bods > that fit ??????sexy?????? stereotyereotypes. > Several of them took off their shirts and began > rocking out. Many of the men didn??????t know > what the fuck to do. They jusjust gaped, though > some got into the music, moshing a bit, > especially as the shock wore off and the show > went on. More women were in the pit than usual > too. But the initial problem for the men and > those of us attuned to seeing women through the > male gaze, despite the hardcore energy of the > music (which is what we presumably paid for), > was that these women became grotesque, they > were parodies incarnate because these were women??????????s bodies with true >es with true > bare breasts, those sexy orbs (the site off > symbolic sex/sexiness), attached to real > monsters: women who were publicly queer and > therefore by default anomalies, performing this > killer music but not as a site for masturbation > or fucking. They were truly threatening, scary > and not to be fucked with. Not one guy tried to > touch them, though I??????m sure a few had > trouble processing/reconcilinling that female > nudity with being there to rock out. Glenum and > Greenberg say they??????re ??????describing > what thhat they??????ve seen???????????, but > based on then the anthology, they seem to have > only seen hetero-women performing gender in > grotesque/hybrid/paradoxical ways. Even if they > didn????????????t try to seek out the work of > queer women, I know that Glenum is aware of > Dodie Bellamy??????s poetry, which would lead > on one to imagine that, even if they > didn??????t include BelBellamy??????s work, they would have made a conscious >ey would have made a conscious > attempempt to seek out and include work by > queer-identified women that includes > representations/perspectives of queer women, > especially as sites of resistance > /grotesqueness / parody ? not just hetero-women > and girls inn thhe making. The ??????queer > woman?????????????????? certainly falls under > the category of ??????representatations of > women??????????? in the public eye that Glenum > and Greenberg define the anthology by. To omit > any work of this sort from this anthology is > not only a glaring omission, it??????s > excexclusionary and does a disservice to the > project of the Gurlesque; the anthology narrows > the Gurlesque at great cost. Considering that > the kind of performance the editors describe > has long been the staple, almost inherently > necessary work of a queer woman as soon as she > owns her queerness out loud, it??????s shocking > to exclude any work by those we women. I mean, > Glenum founds the basis of her definition on Judith >efinition on Judith > Butler, who obviously > ??????described??????????? gen gender as > performance ? & it??????s no coinncidencidence > that the first theorist to publicly introduce > that concept was a lesbian. To make a poor > parallel, this anthology would be akin to > editing an anthology of Experimental American > Poetries and only including selections by > Language Poets or Black Mountain poets. You can > say it????????s ??????descriptive??????????? > and ?? and ??????only??????????? what you ????? > ??????????noticed??????????? all you want, but > the editors of suchch an anthology must have > been wearing blinders if that????????????s all > they include. I remain frustrated because the > more I read from discussions online, the more I > see that Glenum keeps conjuring > ??????queerness??????????? and Greenberg claims > to to have ??????coined??????????? the term > ?????? ??????????Gurlesque??????????? while > also aligning it withth Riot Grrrl, but to >while also aligning it withth Riot Grrrl, but to > see no inclusion of the queer roots of such > performance, to not acknowledge the ongoing > work of confounding the notion of > ??????woman??????????? via queer perversion / > queequeer women??????s burlesque ? gurlesque is > incredicredible. They may as well mark the > exclusiveness of this project as > defined/narrowed through this anthology and say > ??????queering the e hetero-woman and girl > concept by hetero-women???????????, whhich > really only smacks of efforts to subvert, not > ??????queeeer??????????? when you don??????t > actually ally include the queer. Just one more > note and I??????ll stop,op, let my frustration > go the way of the mostly-silence on this issue: > A whole lot happens when a queer woman > frustrates the male gaze that inspires a very > different awareness, which emerges over time > for queer women. This awareness births ideas > and performances that are certainly co-opted > and appropriated by hetero-women, and that??????s >ero-women, and that??????????s > absoluteltely fine. From the most basic of > signifiers like dykes wearing combat boots and > punking out/shearing their hair to larger > behaviors that I will not go into right now, we > have created and given permissions that may not > have happened for a long time for straight > women. I??????m???m not trying to own all of > the subversive stuff straight women have tried > on or done for themselves, at all. But I > haven??????t rt read anything in all of > Glenum??????s and Greenberg??rg??????s > descriptions that queer women as poets, > performers,rs, mothers, etc, haven??????t also > been doing/dealing witwith and adding to the > conversation/culture. Just yesterday, a guy > didn??????t like what I had to say about > Bukowski on a friggingin?????? throw-away > Facebook post and, knowing I????????????????m > queer, told me to get my ??????head out of of > my cunt???????????, made lewd claims about my > relations withh my ??????partner??????????? >ns withh my ?????????partner????????????? > (his quotes) in ann an effort to delegitimize > my relationship, and other shit ? and thaat was > only one tiny fraction of my experience wiith > men reacting to the queer grotesque monster > woman that I am daily. So yes, the queer > existence does have a leg up experientially > when it comes to understanding what it means to > perform for that male gaze while simultaneously > and paradoxically excising one??????s self from > it just by default of of primarily loving and > being for and in relation to women ? and thaaat > kind of performance certainly does make its way > into queer women??????s poetry. I just > can??????t believe tlieve these editors, two > smart well-versed and theoretically-inclined > women, didn??????t come across any writing that > fit that bill or gi give a single nod to it, > though they unabashedly have no problem > referencing the type of work queer women have > historically done and continue to do. Here, > have some poems by Julian Brolaski and >lian Brolaski and > tell me how these don??????t fit the Gurlesque - >- > >> > >> Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of > Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). > >> http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >> > >> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul > Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century > French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so > effectively broadened the sense of poetic > terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in > English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Thu Mar 25 17:34:41 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 17:34:41 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / Outlining / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What s a group?, What s in a name? What s in a book?, etc In-Reply-To: <496606.93162.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <496606.93162.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: My complaint has nothing to do with another list, where for the most part I'm treated with respect. It was a serious comment. Sorry you feel it necessary to go ad hominem. If you wish to continue in this vein I'd suggest b/c. At 05:29 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: >Mark, > >Your contentiousness-as-usual is as boring as it >is reductive. You re intentionally misreading my >post bc you have a bone to pick with the women >on that other list . I clearly pointing out a >few varying responses to the band, including how >some of the men were shocked (myself included as >noted), some went about moshing as usual and how >some warmed up as the show progressed. What else >would you like me to include? How this one >picked his nose, that one took a phone call, >another one left, another one fantasized, >another one tied his shoe, ad nauseum? > >I don t have the energy for such >re-framing-meant-to-distract. How about I just >say, you win: the male gaze is so so bad and go >spank my image in the mirror? Or shall I go >yell at the women on the other list? Would that >alleviate you? Because I m not going to stop >saying male gaze just because you dog me and mischaracterize what I wrote. > >Amy > >On Thu Mar 25th, 2010 5:07 PM EDT Mark Weiss wrote: > > >I don't doubt that one could find a lot of men > who would react as you assume, but of the three > very young men who comment here one says "they > really rock," one just says (in response, > apparently, to a question) he was a little > scared (why and in what way isn't specified), > and one says he was scared because it offended > his morality (because of the nudity? the > gayness? quien sabe?). In both of the latter > cases I'd guess that the word scared (as > opposed to confused, surprised, etc) was supplied by the questioner. > > > >To argue from a stereotypical male gaze is to > stereotype all males as potential sexual criminals. > > > >On another list there was a long complex > discussion about what language people with > disabilities find offensive. The conclusion > seemed to be that a bit of nuance goes a long > way. The same applies here. Even men have feelings. > > > >Mark > > > >At 04:50 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: > >> By the way to illustrate what I'm talking > about, I just found a few men who offer their > responses to Tribe 8 at the 1:25 mark: > >> > >> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxPwCdw9GXA > >> > >> Enjoy, > >> > >> Amy > >> > >> _______ > >> > >> HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: > >> > >> > http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ > >> > >> THE GURLESQUE - NOT ENOUGH GRRRL? > >> > >> > http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> From: Mark Weiss > >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > & Views" > >> Sent: Thu, March 25, 2010 4:31:35 PM > >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, > Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / "Outlining" / > defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a > group?, What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc > >> > >> Amy: this is reductionist to a degree that > you'd probably find appalling if it came from a > man. I know you're trafficking in ideological > cliches, but do you honestly believe that > there's a thing called "the male gaze" as > opposed to a whole bunch of different male > gazes, or for that matter such a thing as "the > male" as opposed to a bunch of different > "males"? Are you unaware that there are other > variables, like age, class, education, > ethnicity, that modify behavior? Like, who was > in the audiences you describe? Were they all > nonplussed by the "monster lesbians" or did > some think ho hum and others fetishize her? > >> > >> Do you really assume that maleness is a > whole lot less complex than femaleness? > >> > >> Best, > >> > >> Mark > >> > >> At 02:08 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: > >>> The more I read of how this book came to be > (I started with the Gurlesque anthology first), > the more invested I become. My opinions are > taking shape, and yet, only a few, especially > Danielle Pafunda primarily, join me in > discussing what is beginning to feel like "my > issue" -- I invite you to join the discussion > (to whet your interest, my last response, from > the comments thread, to Danielle is pasted > below) -- > http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ > Thanks, Amy Good morning, Danielle! Okay, > I??????m going to try to make my my contention > clearer. Let??????s start with a Glenum quote > te from Johannes blog: ??????And Riot Grrr. > Think zombified C Courtney Love in her babydoll > nightie, who somehow managed able to make > female nudity threatening and aggressive rather > than erotic.????????????? Two anecdotes now & > then my explanation in relation to the Gurlesque > Gurlesque > anthology: I loved Love??????s music. Once, I > wI was at one of her shows, pretty intimate, > maybe a hundred people or so. (Drew Barrymore > was even there, backstage, taking care of > Francis Bean) Love rocked out; she spoke > aggressively, wore her babydoll dress, combat > boots, said lots of pro-women things, etc. Late > in the show, she decided to stage dive, just > like any guy singer would who could feel the > energy from the crowd. But this crowd, > especially the pit-as-usual, was more than half > guys. And when she got carried across that pit, > those men began ripping her clothes, feeling > her up, etc. It was all security could do to > get her back, a total struggle. Onstage again, > she was pissed, frustrated, and could only > scream into the mic angrily, ??????I test > everery crowd in every city, and you > FAILED!??????????? and stormeed off stage. For > all of her aggression, all of her posturing, > all of her proclamations, her nudity was *not* threatening, as >ng, as > Glenum claims; she remained most certainly an > erotic object to grab and fuck and disrespect. > I've never seen a man experience a stage dive > even remotely similar. Moving on to Tribe 8, > Riot Grrrl band made up of all openly-queer > women. This was one of the first shows to shock > me. These women got on stage, they had hot bods > that fit ??????sexy?????? ste??? stereotypes. > Several of them took off their shirts and began > rocking out. Many of the men didn??????t know > what the fuck to do. TheThey just gaped, though > some got into the music, moshing a bit, > especially as the shock wore off and the show > went on. More women were in the pit than usual > too. But the initial problem for the men and > those of us attuned to seeing women through the > male gaze, despite the hardcore energy of the > music (which is what we presumably paid for), > was that these women became grotesque, they > were parodies incarnate because these were women??????s bodies with true >dies with true > bare breasts, those sexy orbs (the sitsite of > symbolic sex/sexiness), attached to real > monsters: women who were publicly queer and > therefore by default anomalies, performing this > killer music but not as a site for masturbation > or fucking. They were truly threatening, scary > and not to be fucked with. Not one guy tried to > touch them, though I??????m sure a few had > trouble processing/re/reconciling that female > nudity with being there to rock out. Glenum and > Greenberg say they??????re > ??????describingribing what they??????ve > seen???????????, but base based on the > anthology, they seem to have only seen > hetero-women performing gender in > grotesque/hybrid/paradoxical ways. Even if they > didn??????????t try to seek out the work of > queer women, I know that Glenumm is aware of > Dodie Bellamy??????s poetry, which would ld > lead one to imagine that, even if they > didn??????t incluclude Bellamy??????s work, they would have made a >s work, they would have made a > conscious us attempt to seek out and include > work by queer-identified women that includes > representations/perspectives of queer women, > especially as sites of resistance > /grotesqueness / parody ? not just hetero-women > and ggirls in thhe making. The ??????queer > woman?????????????????? certainly falls under > the category of ??????reprpresentations of > women??????????? in the public eye that Glenum > and Greenberg define the anthology by. To omit > any work of this sort from this anthology is > not only a glaring omission, it???????????s > exclusionary and does a disservice to the > project of the Gurlesque; the anthology narrows > the Gurlesque at great cost. Considering that > the kind of performance the editors describe > has long been the staple, almost inherently > necessary work of a queer woman as soon as she > owns her queerness out loud, it??????s shocking > to exclude any work by by those women. I mean, > Glenum founds the basis of her definition on > of her definition on > Judith Butler, who obviously > ??????described?????????????????? gender as > performance ? & it??????s no s no coinncidence > that the first theorist to publicly introduce > that concept was a lesbian. To make a poor > parallel, this anthology would be akin to > editing an anthology of Experimental American > Poetries and only including selections by > Language Poets or Black Mountain poets. You can > say it??????s > ??????descriptive?????????e??????????????? and > ??????only??????????? what you ????u > ??????noticed??????????? all you want, but the > editoritors of such an anthology must have been > wearing blinders if that??????????s all they > include. I remain frustrated because the more > II read from discussions online, the more I see > that Glenum keeps conjuring > ??????queerness??????????? and Greenberg cla > claims to have ??????coined??????????? the term > erm ??????Gurlesque??????????? while also aligningning it with Riot Grrrl, >?????? while also aligningning it with Riot Grrrl, > but to see no inclusion of the queer roots of > such performance, to not acknowledge the > ongoing work of confounding the notion of > ??????woman??????????? via queer perversiorsion > / queer women??????s burlesque ? gurlesque isue > is incredible. They may as well mark the > exclusiveness of this project as > defined/narrowed through this anthology and say > ??????queerering the hetero-woman and girl > concept by hetero-women?????????????, which > really only smacks of efforts to subvert, not > ????????queer??????????? when you > don??????t????????t actually include the queer. > Just one more note and I???????????ll stop, let > my frustration go the way of the mostly-silence > on this issue: A whole lot happens when a queer > woman frustrates the male gaze that inspires a > very different awareness, which emerges over > time for queer women. This awareness births > ideas and performances that are certainly > co-opted and appropriated by hetero-women, and >ppropriated by hetero-women, and > that???????????s absolutely fine. From the > most basic of signifiers like dykes wearing > combat boots and punking out/shearing their > hair to larger behaviors that I will not go > into right now, we have created and given > permissions that may not have happened for a > long time for straight women. I??????????m not > trying to own all of the subversive stuff > straight wwomen have tried on or done for > themselves, at all. But I haven??????????t read > anything in all of Glenum??????s ?????s and > Greenberg??????s descriptions that queer women > as poepoets, performers, mothers, etc, > haven??????t also been do doing/dealing with > and adding to the conversation/culture. Just > yesterday, a guy didn??????t like what I had to > say about Bukowskiski on a friggin?????? > throw-away Facebook post and, knowinging > I??????m queer, told me to get my > ?????? ???????? ???head out of my > cunt???????????, made lewd claims about myy relations with my >ade lewd claims about myy relations with my > ??????partner??????????? (hi (his quotes) in > an effort to delegitimize my relationship, and > other shit ? and that was only one tiny > fraction of my experience wiith men reacting to > the queer grotesque monster woman that I am > daily. So yes, the queer existence does have a > leg up experientially when it comes to > understanding what it means to perform for that > male gaze while simultaneously and > paradoxically excising one??????s self from it > ju just by default of primarily loving and > being for and in relation to women ? and thaat > kind of performance certainly does make its way > into queer women??????s poetry. I just > can???????????????????t believe these editors, > two smart well-versed and > theoretically-inclined women, didn??????t come > across any writing that at fit that bill or > give a single nod to it, though they > unabashedly have no problem referencing the > type of work queer women have historically done and continue to do. Here, have >ntinue to do. Here, have > some poems by Julian Brolaski and tell me how > these don??????t fit the Gurlesque - > http://chax.org/eoagh/issue3/issuethree/brolaski.html > Or Brenda Iijima and Stacy Szymaszek -- > http://chax.org/eoagh/issue3/issuethree/bracyiimaszek.html > Or any number of queer poets I don??????t have > time right now to sift throurough but would > have if I were an editor of an anthology such > as this????? Sorry to be insistent; I??????m > still just emotionaonal and pissed. But > moreover, I appreciate your bravery and how > constructively you continue to engage me on > this matter, Danielle ? I know yyou??????re > tons busy!! I think you hit the nail on the he > head in your efforts in the last comment to > note / outline what you see me reacting to. I > wonder if others who see it will speak up > (quite a few have backchannled, as noted), or if those involved >if those involved > will acknowledge this gap. Thanks lots, A > >>> _______ > >>> > >>> HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: > >>> > >>> > http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ > >>> > >>> THE GURLESQUE - NOT ENOUGH GRRRL? > >>> > >>> > http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> New-Poetry mailing list > >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >>> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > >> Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of > Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). > >> http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >> > >> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul > Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century > French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so > effectively broadened the sense of poetic > terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in > English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of > Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). > >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul > Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century > French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so > effectively broadened the sense of poetic > terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in > English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From acgold01 at louisville.edu Thu Mar 25 17:36:59 2010 From: acgold01 at louisville.edu (Alan C Golding) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 17:36:59 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Creeley book again Message-ID: <4BAB9F3A.AC48.0004.0@gwise.louisville.edu> Apologies for re-posting, but I'm not sure this follow-up on the Creeley collection got through. This is the part that I wanted to include in my previous announcement of what Ed Dorn called "the latest industrial product," but I couldn't locate it. And now I have. Save 25% To save, please go to our website and visit the FORM, POWER, AND PERSON IN ROBERT CREELEY'S LIFE AND WORK page, and use promo code FRED10. This is case sensitive, so be sure to make those letters capitals! This coupon is transferable; please feel free to forward this message to family and friends. Offer Expires: June 1, 2010 If you would like any additional information or a review copy of this book, please feel free to contact Allison Thomas Means, University of Iowa Press Alan Golding, President Creeley Cryonics, Inc. BTW, also much recommended: two other new Iowa books, Norman Finkelstein's On Mount Vision (Duncan, Johnson, Spicer, Howe, Palmer, Mackey, Schwerner) and, outside the Contemporary North American Poetry Series, Lynn Keller's Thinking Poetry (C. D. Wright, Fulton, Waldrop, Retallack, Swensen, Wheeler, Kim). From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Mar 25 17:45:19 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 14:45:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / Outlining / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What s a group?, What s in a name? What s in a book?, etc Message-ID: <211021.47446.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Additionally, I don t know why you keep participating on wompo when it leaves you in such an angry pissed off state for so long. Off to dine and drink a little vino -i.e. to live offline for a bit. Cheers, Amy On Thu Mar 25th, 2010 5:07 PM EDT Mark Weiss wrote: >I don't doubt that one could find a lot of men who would react as you assume, but of the three very young men who comment here one says "they really rock," one just says (in response, apparently, to a question) he was a little scared (why and in what way isn't specified), and one says he was scared because it offended his morality (because of the nudity? the gayness? quien sabe?). In both of the latter cases I'd guess that the word scared (as opposed to confused, surprised, etc) was supplied by the questioner. > >To argue from a stereotypical male gaze is to stereotype all males as potential sexual criminals. > >On another list there was a long complex discussion about what language people with disabilities find offensive. The conclusion seemed to be that a bit of nuance goes a long way. The same applies here. Even men have feelings. > >Mark > >At 04:50 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: >> By the way to illustrate what I'm talking about, I just found a few men who offer their responses to Tribe 8 at the 1:25 mark: >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxPwCdw9GXA >> >> Enjoy, >> >> Amy >> >> _______ >> >> HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: >> >> http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ >> >> THE GURLESQUE - NOT ENOUGH GRRRL? >> >> http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ >> >> >> >> >> From: Mark Weiss >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" >> Sent: Thu, March 25, 2010 4:31:35 PM >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / "Outlining" / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a group?, What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc >> >> Amy: this is reductionist to a degree that you'd probably find appalling if it came from a man. I know you're trafficking in ideological cliches, but do you honestly believe that there's a thing called "the male gaze" as opposed to a whole bunch of different male gazes, or for that matter such a thing as "the male" as opposed to a bunch of different "males"? Are you unaware that there are other variables, like age, class, education, ethnicity, that modify behavior? Like, who was in the audiences you describe? Were they all nonplussed by the "monster lesbians" or did some think ho hum and others fetishize her? >> >> Do you really assume that maleness is a whole lot less complex than femaleness? >> >> Best, >> >> Mark >> >> At 02:08 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: >>> The more I read of how this book came to be (I started with the Gurlesque anthology first), the more invested I become. My opinions are taking shape, and yet, only a few, especially Danielle Pafunda primarily, join me in discussing what is beginning to feel like "my issue" -- I invite you to join the discussion (to whet your interest, my last response, from the comments thread, to Danielle is pasted below) -- http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ Thanks, Amy Good morning, Danielle! Okay, I????m going to try to make my my contention clearer. Let????s start with a Glenum quote te from Johannes blog: ????And Riot Grrr. Think zombified C Courtney Love in her babydoll nightie, who somehow managed able to make female nudity threatening and aggressive rather than erotic.??????? Two anecdotes now & then my explanation in relation to the Gurlesque anthology: I loved Love????s music. Once, I wI was at one of her shows, pretty intimate, maybe a hundred people or so. (Drew Barrymore was even there, backstage, taking care of Francis Bean) Love rocked out; she spoke aggressively, wore her babydoll dress, combat boots, said lots of pro-women things, etc. Late in the show, she decided to stage dive, just like any guy singer would who could feel the energy from the crowd. But this crowd, especially the pit-as-usual, was more than half guys. And when she got carried across that pit, those men began ripping her clothes, feeling her up, etc. It was all security could do to get her back, a total struggle. Onstage again, she was pissed, frustrated, and could only scream into the mic angrily, ????I test everery crowd in every city, and you FAILED!?????? and stormeed off stage. For all of her aggression, all of her posturing, all of her proclamations, her nudity was *not* threatening, as Glenum claims; she remained most certainly an erotic object to grab and fuck and disrespect. I've never seen a man experience a stage dive even remotely similar. Moving on to Tribe 8, Riot Grrrl band made up of all openly-queer women. This was one of the first shows to shock me. These women got on stage, they had hot bods that fit ????sexy???? ste?? stereotypes. Several of them took off their shirts and began rocking out. Many of the men didn????t know what the fuck to do. TheThey just gaped, though some got into the music, moshing a bit, especially as the shock wore off and the show went on. More women were in the pit than usual too. But the initial problem for the men and those of us attuned to seeing women through the male gaze, despite the hardcore energy of the music (which is what we presumably paid for), was that these women became grotesque, they were parodies incarnate because these were women????s bodies with true bare breasts, those sexy orbs (the sitsite of symbolic sex/sexiness), attached to real monsters: women who were publicly queer and therefore by default anomalies, performing this killer music but not as a site for masturbation or fucking. They were truly threatening, scary and not to be fucked with. Not one guy tried to touch them, though I????m sure a few had trouble processing/re/reconciling that female nudity with being there to rock out. Glenum and Greenberg say they????re ????describingribing what they????ve seen??????, but base based on the anthology, they seem to have only seen hetero-women performing gender in grotesque/hybrid/paradoxical ways. Even if they didn??????t try to seek out the work of queer women, I know that Glenumm is aware of Dodie Bellamy????s poetry, which would ld lead one to imagine that, even if they didn????t incluclude Bellamy????s work, they would have made a conscious us attempt to seek out and include work by queer-identified women that includes representations/perspectives of queer women, especially as sites of resistance /grotesqueness / parody ? not just hetero-women and ggirls in thhe making. The ????queer woman?????????? certainly falls under the category of ????reprpresentations of women?????? in the public eye that Glenum and Greenberg define the anthology by. To omit any work of this sort from this anthology is not only a glaring omission, it???????s exclusionary and does a disservice to the project of the Gurlesque; the anthology narrows the Gurlesque at great cost. Considering that the kind of performance the editors describe has long been the staple, almost inherently necessary work of a queer woman as soon as she owns her queerness out loud, it????s shocking to exclude any work by by those women. I mean, Glenum founds the basis of her definition on Judith Butler, who obviously ????described?????????? gender as performance ? & it????s no s no coinncidence that the first theorist to publicly introduce that concept was a lesbian. To make a poor parallel, this anthology would be akin to editing an anthology of Experimental American Poetries and only including selections by Language Poets or Black Mountain poets. You can say it????s ????descriptive?????e???????? and ????only?????? what you ??u ????noticed?????? all you want, but the editoritors of such an anthology must have been wearing blinders if that??????s all they include. I remain frustrated because the more II read from discussions online, the more I see that Glenum keeps conjuring ????queerness?????? and Greenberg cla claims to have ????coined?????? the term erm ????Gurlesque?????? while also aligningning it with Riot Grrrl, but to see no inclusion of the queer roots of such performance, to not acknowledge the ongoing work of confounding the notion of ????woman?????? via queer perversiorsion / queer women????s burlesque ? gurlesque isue is incredible. They may as well mark the exclusiveness of this project as defined/narrowed through this anthology and say ????queerering the hetero-woman and girl concept by hetero-women???????, which really only smacks of efforts to subvert, not ?????queer?????? when you don????t?????t actually include the queer. Just one more note and I???????ll stop, let my frustration go the way of the mostly-silence on this issue: A whole lot happens when a queer woman frustrates the male gaze that inspires a very different awareness, which emerges over time for queer women. This awareness births ideas and performances that are certainly co-opted and appropriated by hetero-women, and that???????s absolutely fine. From the most basic of signifiers like dykes wearing combat boots and punking out/shearing their hair to larger behaviors that I will not go into right now, we have created and given permissions that may not have happened for a long time for straight women. I??????m not trying to own all of the subversive stuff straight wwomen have tried on or done for themselves, at all. But I haven??????t read anything in all of Glenum????s ???s and Greenberg????s descriptions that queer women as poepoets, performers, mothers, etc, haven????t also been do doing/dealing with and adding to the conversation/culture. Just yesterday, a guy didn????t like what I had to say about Bukowskiski on a friggin???? throw-away Facebook post and, knowinging I????m queer, told me to get my ??????????head out of my cunt??????, made lewd claims about myy relations with my ????partner?????? (hi (his quotes) in an effort to delegitimize my relationship, and other shit ? and that was only one tiny fraction of my experience wiith men reacting to the queer grotesque monster woman that I am daily. So yes, the queer existence does have a leg up experientially when it comes to understanding what it means to perform for that male gaze while simultaneously and paradoxically excising one????s self from it ju just by default of primarily loving and being for and in relation to women ? and thaat kind of performance certainly does make its way into queer women????s poetry. I just can???????????t believe these editors, two smart well-versed and theoretically-inclined women, didn????t come across any writing that at fit that bill or give a single nod to it, though they unabashedly have no problem referencing the type of work queer women have historically done and continue to do. Here, have some poems by Julian Brolaski and tell me how these don????t fit the Gurlesque - http://chax.org/eoagh/issue3/issuethree/brolaski.html Or Brenda Iijima and Stacy Szymaszek -- http://chax.org/eoagh/issue3/issuethree/bracyiimaszek.html Or any number of queer poets I don????t have time right now to sift throurough but would have if I were an editor of an anthology such as this??? Sorry to be insistent; I????m still just emotionaonal and pissed. But moreover, I appreciate your bravery and how constructively you continue to engage me on this matter, Danielle ? I know yyou????re tons busy!! I think you hit the nail on the he head in your efforts in the last comment to note / outline what you see me reacting to. I wonder if others who see it will speak up (quite a few have backchannled, as noted), or if those involved will acknowledge this gap. Thanks lots, A >>> _______ >>> >>> HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: >>> >>> http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ >>> >>> THE GURLESQUE - NOT ENOUGH GRRRL? >>> >>> http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ >>> >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >> http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation From junction at earthlink.net Thu Mar 25 18:16:05 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 18:16:05 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / Outlining / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What s a group?, What s in a name? What s in a book?, etc In-Reply-To: <211021.47446.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <211021.47446.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: It doesn't. Only briefly, and perhaps three times in several years. I participate in wompo because I learn a lot and because it challenges my assumptions. And because I've made a lot of friends there, mostly b/c. Not that I have to explain myself. But this discussion for me is truly about ideas. I could certainly make it about you, as you seem to insist on making it about me, but I won't. Have a nice meal. Mark At 05:45 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: >Additionally, I don t know why you keep >participating on wompo when it leaves you in >such an angry pissed off state for so long. > >Off to dine and drink a little vino -i.e. to live offline for a bit. > >Cheers, > >Amy > >On Thu Mar 25th, 2010 5:07 PM EDT Mark Weiss wrote: > > >I don't doubt that one could find a lot of men > who would react as you assume, but of the three > very young men who comment here one says "they > really rock," one just says (in response, > apparently, to a question) he was a little > scared (why and in what way isn't specified), > and one says he was scared because it offended > his morality (because of the nudity? the > gayness? quien sabe?). In both of the latter > cases I'd guess that the word scared (as > opposed to confused, surprised, etc) was supplied by the questioner. > > > >To argue from a stereotypical male gaze is to > stereotype all males as potential sexual criminals. > > > >On another list there was a long complex > discussion about what language people with > disabilities find offensive. The conclusion > seemed to be that a bit of nuance goes a long > way. The same applies here. Even men have feelings. > > > >Mark > > > >At 04:50 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: > >> By the way to illustrate what I'm talking > about, I just found a few men who offer their > responses to Tribe 8 at the 1:25 mark: > >> > >> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxPwCdw9GXA > >> > >> Enjoy, > >> > >> Amy > >> > >> _______ > >> > >> HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: > >> > >> > http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ > >> > >> THE GURLESQUE - NOT ENOUGH GRRRL? > >> > >> > http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> From: Mark Weiss > >> To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News > & Views" > >> Sent: Thu, March 25, 2010 4:31:35 PM > >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, > Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / "Outlining" / > defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a > group?, What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc > >> > >> Amy: this is reductionist to a degree that > you'd probably find appalling if it came from a > man. I know you're trafficking in ideological > cliches, but do you honestly believe that > there's a thing called "the male gaze" as > opposed to a whole bunch of different male > gazes, or for that matter such a thing as "the > male" as opposed to a bunch of different > "males"? Are you unaware that there are other > variables, like age, class, education, > ethnicity, that modify behavior? Like, who was > in the audiences you describe? Were they all > nonplussed by the "monster lesbians" or did > some think ho hum and others fetishize her? > >> > >> Do you really assume that maleness is a > whole lot less complex than femaleness? > >> > >> Best, > >> > >> Mark > >> > >> At 02:08 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: > >>> The more I read of how this book came to be > (I started with the Gurlesque anthology first), > the more invested I become. My opinions are > taking shape, and yet, only a few, especially > Danielle Pafunda primarily, join me in > discussing what is beginning to feel like "my > issue" -- I invite you to join the discussion > (to whet your interest, my last response, from > the comments thread, to Danielle is pasted > below) -- > http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ > Thanks, Amy Good morning, Danielle! Okay, > I??????m going to try to make my my contention > clearer. Let??????s start with a Glenum quote > te from Johannes blog: ??????And Riot Grrr. > Think zombified C Courtney Love in her babydoll > nightie, who somehow managed able to make > female nudity threatening and aggressive rather > than erotic.????????????? Two anecdotes now & > then my explanation in relation to the Gurlesque > Gurlesque > anthology: I loved Love??????s music. Once, I > wI was at one of her shows, pretty intimate, > maybe a hundred people or so. (Drew Barrymore > was even there, backstage, taking care of > Francis Bean) Love rocked out; she spoke > aggressively, wore her babydoll dress, combat > boots, said lots of pro-women things, etc. Late > in the show, she decided to stage dive, just > like any guy singer would who could feel the > energy from the crowd. But this crowd, > especially the pit-as-usual, was more than half > guys. And when she got carried across that pit, > those men began ripping her clothes, feeling > her up, etc. It was all security could do to > get her back, a total struggle. Onstage again, > she was pissed, frustrated, and could only > scream into the mic angrily, ??????I test > everery crowd in every city, and you > FAILED!??????????? and stormeed off stage. For > all of her aggression, all of her posturing, > all of her proclamations, her nudity was *not* threatening, as >ng, as > Glenum claims; she remained most certainly an > erotic object to grab and fuck and disrespect. > I've never seen a man experience a stage dive > even remotely similar. Moving on to Tribe 8, > Riot Grrrl band made up of all openly-queer > women. This was one of the first shows to shock > me. These women got on stage, they had hot bods > that fit ??????sexy?????? ste??? stereotypes. > Several of them took off their shirts and began > rocking out. Many of the men didn??????t know > what the fuck to do. TheThey just gaped, though > some got into the music, moshing a bit, > especially as the shock wore off and the show > went on. More women were in the pit than usual > too. But the initial problem for the men and > those of us attuned to seeing women through the > male gaze, despite the hardcore energy of the > music (which is what we presumably paid for), > was that these women became grotesque, they > were parodies incarnate because these were women??????s bodies with true >dies with true > bare breasts, those sexy orbs (the sitsite of > symbolic sex/sexiness), attached to real > monsters: women who were publicly queer and > therefore by default anomalies, performing this > killer music but not as a site for masturbation > or fucking. They were truly threatening, scary > and not to be fucked with. Not one guy tried to > touch them, though I??????m sure a few had > trouble processing/re/reconciling that female > nudity with being there to rock out. Glenum and > Greenberg say they??????re > ??????describingribing what they??????ve > seen???????????, but base based on the > anthology, they seem to have only seen > hetero-women performing gender in > grotesque/hybrid/paradoxical ways. Even if they > didn??????????t try to seek out the work of > queer women, I know that Glenumm is aware of > Dodie Bellamy??????s poetry, which would ld > lead one to imagine that, even if they > didn??????t incluclude Bellamy??????s work, they would have made a >s work, they would have made a > conscious us attempt to seek out and include > work by queer-identified women that includes > representations/perspectives of queer women, > especially as sites of resistance > /grotesqueness / parody ? not just hetero-women > and ggirls in thhe making. The ??????queer > woman?????????????????? certainly falls under > the category of ??????reprpresentations of > women??????????? in the public eye that Glenum > and Greenberg define the anthology by. To omit > any work of this sort from this anthology is > not only a glaring omission, it???????????s > exclusionary and does a disservice to the > project of the Gurlesque; the anthology narrows > the Gurlesque at great cost. Considering that > the kind of performance the editors describe > has long been the staple, almost inherently > necessary work of a queer woman as soon as she > owns her queerness out loud, it??????s shocking > to exclude any work by by those women. I mean, > Glenum founds the basis of her definition on > of her definition on > Judith Butler, who obviously > ??????described?????????????????? gender as > performance ? & it??????s no s no coinncidence > that the first theorist to publicly introduce > that concept was a lesbian. To make a poor > parallel, this anthology would be akin to > editing an anthology of Experimental American > Poetries and only including selections by > Language Poets or Black Mountain poets. You can > say it??????s > ??????descriptive?????????e??????????????? and > ??????only??????????? what you ????u > ??????noticed??????????? all you want, but the > editoritors of such an anthology must have been > wearing blinders if that??????????s all they > include. I remain frustrated because the more > II read from discussions online, the more I see > that Glenum keeps conjuring > ??????queerness??????????? and Greenberg cla > claims to have ??????coined??????????? the term > erm ??????Gurlesque??????????? while also aligningning it with Riot Grrrl, >?????? while also aligningning it with Riot Grrrl, > but to see no inclusion of the queer roots of > such performance, to not acknowledge the > ongoing work of confounding the notion of > ??????woman??????????? via queer perversiorsion > / queer women??????s burlesque ? gurlesque isue > is incredible. They may as well mark the > exclusiveness of this project as > defined/narrowed through this anthology and say > ??????queerering the hetero-woman and girl > concept by hetero-women?????????????, which > really only smacks of efforts to subvert, not > ????????queer??????????? when you > don??????t????????t actually include the queer. > Just one more note and I???????????ll stop, let > my frustration go the way of the mostly-silence > on this issue: A whole lot happens when a queer > woman frustrates the male gaze that inspires a > very different awareness, which emerges over > time for queer women. This awareness births > ideas and performances that are certainly > co-opted and appropriated by hetero-women, and >ppropriated by hetero-women, and > that???????????s absolutely fine. From the > most basic of signifiers like dykes wearing > combat boots and punking out/shearing their > hair to larger behaviors that I will not go > into right now, we have created and given > permissions that may not have happened for a > long time for straight women. I??????????m not > trying to own all of the subversive stuff > straight wwomen have tried on or done for > themselves, at all. But I haven??????????t read > anything in all of Glenum??????s ?????s and > Greenberg??????s descriptions that queer women > as poepoets, performers, mothers, etc, > haven??????t also been do doing/dealing with > and adding to the conversation/culture. Just > yesterday, a guy didn??????t like what I had to > say about Bukowskiski on a friggin?????? > throw-away Facebook post and, knowinging > I??????m queer, told me to get my > ?????? ???????? ???head out of my > cunt???????????, made lewd claims about myy relations with my >ade lewd claims about myy relations with my > ??????partner??????????? (hi (his quotes) in > an effort to delegitimize my relationship, and > other shit ? and that was only one tiny > fraction of my experience wiith men reacting to > the queer grotesque monster woman that I am > daily. So yes, the queer existence does have a > leg up experientially when it comes to > understanding what it means to perform for that > male gaze while simultaneously and > paradoxically excising one??????s self from it > ju just by default of primarily loving and > being for and in relation to women ? and thaat > kind of performance certainly does make its way > into queer women??????s poetry. I just > can???????????????????t believe these editors, > two smart well-versed and > theoretically-inclined women, didn??????t come > across any writing that at fit that bill or > give a single nod to it, though they > unabashedly have no problem referencing the > type of work queer women have historically done and continue to do. Here, have >ntinue to do. Here, have > some poems by Julian Brolaski and tell me how > these don??????t fit the Gurlesque - > http://chax.org/eoagh/issue3/issuethree/brolaski.html > Or Brenda Iijima and Stacy Szymaszek -- > http://chax.org/eoagh/issue3/issuethree/bracyiimaszek.html > Or any number of queer poets I don??????t have > time right now to sift throurough but would > have if I were an editor of an anthology such > as this????? Sorry to be insistent; I??????m > still just emotionaonal and pissed. But > moreover, I appreciate your bravery and how > constructively you continue to engage me on > this matter, Danielle ? I know yyou??????re > tons busy!! I think you hit the nail on the he > head in your efforts in the last comment to > note / outline what you see me reacting to. I > wonder if others who see it will speak up > (quite a few have backchannled, as noted), or if those involved >if those involved > will acknowledge this gap. Thanks lots, A > >>> _______ > >>> > >>> HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: > >>> > >>> > http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ > >>> > >>> THE GURLESQUE - NOT ENOUGH GRRRL? > >>> > >>> > http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> _______________________________________________ > >>> New-Poetry mailing list > >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >>> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > >> Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of > Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). > >> http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >> > >> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul > Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century > French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so > effectively broadened the sense of poetic > terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in > English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation > >> > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of > Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). > >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul > Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century > French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so > effectively broadened the sense of poetic > terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in > English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From heatherjunegibbons at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 18:18:39 2010 From: heatherjunegibbons at gmail.com (Heather June Gibbons) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 18:18:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / "Outlining" / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a group?, What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc In-Reply-To: References: <454450.69444.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <235734.2761.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Mark, you don't seem to understand what Amy means by "male gaze." If you find the term itself so provocative, read Laura Mulvey and then tell us what you think. Amy's use of it in this context is completely valid and apt, so far as I can tell. Amy, I'm following the discussion and appreciate it very much. I won't weigh in on the anthology specifically until I've read it for myself, but your gripe with its hetero-exclusivity strikes me as important and topical, given the editors' frame(s) and points of reference. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Heather On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 4:55 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Ah, the retailing of stereotypes is ok, as long as it suits convenience. > > I'm assuming that you use the royal "we." You can assume that I know you > didn't make up the phrase. > > Could you list other stereotypes that are ok to use despite being > misleading and demeaning? I could use the guidance. > > Mark > > At 04:39 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: > > No, Mark - I don't "think" that. But for the sake of brevity and > ideological discussions, we do speak about the "male gaze" esp as it frames > "women" (i.e. Laura Mulvey posited long ago that women also see through a > "male gaze" - ideological discussions. That doesn't mean women see like > men.) - I don't imagine every man sees through the same exact eye anymore > than I think all lawyers like cigars and cocktails at five p.m. or all > hetero-women want to birth babies. > > Amy > > _______* > > *HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: > > http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ > > THE GURLESQUE - NOT ENOUGH GRRRL? > > http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ > * > * > > > *From:* Mark Weiss > *To:* "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > *Sent:* Thu, March 25, 2010 4:31:35 PM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / > "Outlining" / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a group?, What's > in a name? What's in a book?, etc > > Amy: this is reductionist to a degree that you'd probably find appalling if > it came from a man. I know you're trafficking in ideological cliches, but do > you honestly believe that there's a thing called "the male gaze" as opposed > to a whole bunch of different male gazes, or for that matter such a thing as > "the male" as opposed to a bunch of different "males"? Are you unaware that > there are other variables, like age, class, education, ethnicity, that > modify behavior? Like, who was in the audiences you describe? Were they all > nonplussed by the "monster lesbians" or did some think ho hum and others > fetishize her? > > Do you really assume that maleness is a whole lot less complex than > femaleness? > > Best, > > Mark > > At 02:08 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: > > The more I read of how this book came to be (I started with the Gurlesque > anthology first), the more invested I become. My opinions are taking shape, > and yet, only a few, especially Danielle Pafunda primarily, join me in > discussing what is beginning to feel like "my issue" -- I invite you to join > the discussion (to whet your interest, my last response, from the comments > thread, to Danielle is pasted below) -- > http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ Thanks, Amy > Good morning, Danielle! Okay, I????m going to try to make my contentiotion > clearer. Let????s start with a Glenum quote from Johaohannes blog: ????And > Riot Grrr. Think zombified Courtney L Love in her babydoll nightie, who > somehow managed able to make female nudity threatening and aggressive rather > than erotic.??????? Two anecdotes now & then my explanation in relation to > the Gurlesque anthology: I loved Love????s music. Once, I was at ot one of > her shows, pretty intimate, maybe a hundred people or so. (Drew Barrymore > was even there, backstage, taking care of Francis Bean) Love rocked out; she > spoke aggressively, wore her babydoll dress, combat boots, said lots of > pro-women things, etc. Late in the show, she decided to stage dive, just > like any guy singer would who could feel the energy from the crowd. But this > crowd, especially the pit-as-usual, was more than half guys. And when she > got carried across that pit, those men began ripping her clothes, feeling > her up, etc. It was all security could do to get her back, a total struggle. > Onstage again, she was pissed, frustrated, and could only scream into the > mic angrily, ????I test every crowdwd in every city, and you FAILED!?????? > and stormed off staage. For all of her aggression, all of her posturing, all > of her proclamations, her nudity was *not* threatening, as Glenum claims; > she remained most certainly an erotic object to grab and fuck and > disrespect. I've never seen a man experience a stage dive even remotely > similar. Moving on to Tribe 8, Riot Grrrl band made up of all openly-queer > women. This was one of the first shows to shock me. These women got on > stage, they had hot bods that fit ????sexy???? stereotyereotypes. Several of > them took off their shirts and began rocking out. Many of the men didn????t > know what the fuck to do. They jusjust gaped, though some got into the > music, moshing a bit, especially as the shock wore off and the show went on. > More women were in the pit than usual too. But the initial problem for the > men and those of us attuned to seeing women through the male gaze, despite > the hardcore energy of the music (which is what we presumably paid for), was > that these women became grotesque, they were parodies incarnate because > these were women??????s bodies with true bare breasts, those sexy orbs (the > site off symbolic sex/sexiness), attached to real monsters: women who were > publicly queer and therefore by default anomalies, performing this killer > music but not as a site for masturbation or fucking. They were truly > threatening, scary and not to be fucked with. Not one guy tried to touch > them, though I????m sure a few had trouble processing/reconcilinling that > female nudity with being there to rock out. Glenum and Greenberg say > they????re ????describing what thhat they????ve seen??????, but based on > then the anthology, they seem to have only seen hetero-women performing > gender in grotesque/hybrid/paradoxical ways. Even if they didn???????t try > to seek out the work of queer women, I know that Glenum is aware of Dodie > Bellamy????s poetry, which would lead on one to imagine that, even if they > didn????t include BelBellamy????s work, they would have made a conscious > attempempt to seek out and include work by queer-identified women that > includes representations/perspectives of queer women, especially as sites of > resistance /grotesqueness / parody ? not just hetero-women and girls inn > thhe making. The ????queer woman?????????? certainly falls under the > category of ????representatations of women?????? in the public eye that > Glenum and Greenberg define the anthology by. To omit any work of this sort > from this anthology is not only a glaring omission, it????s excexclusionary > and does a disservice to the project of the Gurlesque; the anthology narrows > the Gurlesque at great cost. Considering that the kind of performance the > editors describe has long been the staple, almost inherently necessary work > of a queer woman as soon as she owns her queerness out loud, it????s > shocking to exclude any work by those we women. I mean, Glenum founds the > basis of her definition on Judith Butler, who obviously ????described?????? > gen gender as performance ? & it????s no coinncidencidence that the first > theorist to publicly introduce that concept was a lesbian. To make a poor > parallel, this anthology would be akin to editing an anthology of > Experimental American Poetries and only including selections by Language > Poets or Black Mountain poets. You can say it?????s ????descriptive?????? > and ? and ????only?????? what you ??? ??????noticed?????? all you want, but > the editors of suchch an anthology must have been wearing blinders if > that???????s all they include. I remain frustrated because the more I read > from discussions online, the more I see that Glenum keeps conjuring > ????queerness?????? and Greenberg claims to to have ????coined?????? the > term ??? ??????Gurlesque?????? while also aligning it withth Riot Grrrl, but > to see no inclusion of the queer roots of such performance, to not > acknowledge the ongoing work of confounding the notion of ????woman?????? > via queer perversion / queequeer women????s burlesque ? gurlesque is > incredicredible. They may as well mark the exclusiveness of this project as > defined/narrowed through this anthology and say ????queering the e > hetero-woman and girl concept by hetero-women??????, whhich really only > smacks of efforts to subvert, not ????queeeer?????? when you don????t > actually ally include the queer. Just one more note and I????ll stop,op, let > my frustration go the way of the mostly-silence on this issue: A whole lot > happens when a queer woman frustrates the male gaze that inspires a very > different awareness, which emerges over time for queer women. This awareness > births ideas and performances that are certainly co-opted and appropriated > by hetero-women, and that????s absoluteltely fine. From the most basic of > signifiers like dykes wearing combat boots and punking out/shearing their > hair to larger behaviors that I will not go into right now, we have created > and given permissions that may not have happened for a long time for > straight women. I????m??m not trying to own all of the subversive stuff > straight women have tried on or done for themselves, at all. But I > haven????t rt read anything in all of Glenum????s and Greenberg?rg????s > descriptions that queer women as poets, performers,rs, mothers, etc, > haven????t also been doing/dealing witwith and adding to the > conversation/culture. Just yesterday, a guy didn????t like what I had to say > about Bukowski on a friggingin???? throw-away Facebook post and, knowing > I?????????m queer, told me to get my ????head out of of my cunt??????, made > lewd claims about my relations withh my ????partner?????? (his quotes) in > ann an effort to delegitimize my relationship, and other shit ? and thaat > was only one tiny fraction of my experience wiith men reacting to the queer > grotesque monster woman that I am daily. So yes, the queer existence does > have a leg up experientially when it comes to understanding what it means to > perform for that male gaze while simultaneously and paradoxically excising > one????s self from it just by default of of primarily loving and being for > and in relation to women ? and thaaat kind of performance certainly does > make its way into queer women????s poetry. I just can????t believe tlieve > these editors, two smart well-versed and theoretically-inclined women, > didn????t come across any writing that fit that bill or gi give a single nod > to it, though they unabashedly have no problem referencing the type of work > queer women have historically done and continue to do. Here, have some poems > by Julian Brolaski and tell me how these don????t fit the Gurlesque - > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Thu Mar 25 18:20:14 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 18:20:14 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / "Outlining" / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a group?, What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc In-Reply-To: References: <454450.69444.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <235734.2761.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I know what the term means. At 06:18 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: >Mark, you don't seem to understand what Amy >means by "male gaze." If you find the term >itself so provocative, read Laura Mulvey and >then tell us what you think. Amy's use of it in >this context is completely valid and apt, so far as I can tell. > >Amy, I'm following the discussion and appreciate >it very much. I won't weigh in on the anthology >specifically until I've read it for myself, but >your gripe with its hetero-exclusivity strikes >me as important and topical, given the editors' >frame(s) and points of reference. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. > >Heather > >On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 4:55 PM, Mark Weiss ><junction at earthlink.net> wrote: >Ah, the retailing of stereotypes is ok, as long as it suits convenience. > >I'm assuming that you use the royal "we." You >can assume that I know you didn't make up the phrase. > >Could you list other stereotypes that are ok to >use despite being misleading and demeaning? I could use the guidance. > >Mark > >At 04:39 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: >>No, Mark - I don't "think" that. But for the >>sake of brevity and ideological discussions, we >>do speak about the "male gaze" esp as it frames >>"women" (i.e. Laura Mulvey posited long ago >>that women also see through a "male gaze" - >>ideological discussions. That doesn't mean >>women see like men.) - I don't imagine every >>man sees through the same exact eye anymore >>than I think all lawyers like cigars and >>cocktails at five p.m. or all hetero-women want to birth babies. >> >>Amy >> >>_______ >> >>HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: >> >>http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ >> >>THE GURLESQUE - NOT ENOUGH GRRRL? >> >>http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ >> >> >> >> >>From: Mark Weiss <junction at earthlink.net> >>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & >>Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> >>Sent: Thu, March 25, 2010 4:31:35 PM >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque >>Gurlesque, Describing / "Outlining" / defining >>Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a group?, >>What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc >> >>Amy: this is reductionist to a degree that >>you'd probably find appalling if it came from a >>man. I know you're trafficking in ideological >>cliches, but do you honestly believe that >>there's a thing called "the male gaze" as >>opposed to a whole bunch of different male >>gazes, or for that matter such a thing as "the >>male" as opposed to a bunch of different >>"males"? Are you unaware that there are other >>variables, like age, class, education, >>ethnicity, that modify behavior? Like, who was >>in the audiences you describe? Were they all >>nonplussed by the "monster lesbians" or did >>some think ho hum and others fetishize her? >> >>Do you really assume that maleness is a whole >>lot less complex than femaleness? >> >>Best, >> >>Mark >> >>At 02:08 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: >>>The more I read of how this book came to be (I >>>started with the Gurlesque anthology first), >>>the more invested I become. My opinions are >>>taking shape, and yet, only a few, especially >>>Danielle Pafunda primarily, join me in >>>discussing what is beginning to feel like "my >>>issue" -- I invite you to join the discussion >>>(to whet your interest, my last response, from >>>the comments thread, to Danielle is pasted >>>below) -- >>>http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ >>>Thanks, Amy Good morning, Danielle! Okay, >>>I????m going to try to make my contentiotion >>>clearer. Let????s start with a Glenum quote >>>from Johaohannes blog: ????And Riot Grrr. >>>Think zombified Courtney L Love in her >>>babydoll nightie, who somehow managed able to >>>make female nudity threatening and aggressive >>>rather than erotic.??????? Two anecdotes now & >>>then my explanation in relation to the >>>Gurlesque anthology: I loved Love????s music. >>>Once, I was at ot one of her shows, pretty >>>intimate, maybe a hundred people or so. (Drew >>>Barrymore was even there, backstage, taking >>>care of Francis Bean) Love rocked out; she >>>spoke aggressively, wore her babydoll dress, >>>combat boots, said lots of pro-women things, >>>etc. Late in the show, she decided to stage >>>dive, just like any guy singer would who could >>>feel the energy from the crowd. But this >>>crowd, especially the pit-as-usual, was more >>>than half guys. And when she got carried >>>across that pit, those men began ripping her >>>clothes, feeling her up, etc. It was all >>>security could do to get her back, a total >>>struggle. Onstage again, she was pissed, >>>frustrated, and could only scream into the mic >>>angrily, ????I test every crowdwd in every >>>city, and you FAILED!?????? and stormed off >>>staage. For all of her aggression, all of her >>>posturing, all of her proclamations, her >>>nudity was *not* threatening, as Glenum >>>claims; she remained most certainly an erotic >>>object to grab and fuck and disrespect. I've >>>never seen a man experience a stage dive even >>>remotely similar. Moving on to Tribe 8, Riot >>>Grrrl band made up of all openly-queer women. >>>This was one of the first shows to shock me. >>>These women got on stage, they had hot bods >>>that fit ????sexy???? stereotyereotypes. >>>Several of them took off their shirts and >>>began rocking out. Many of the men didn????t >>>know what the fuck to do. They jusjust gaped, >>>though some got into the music, moshing a bit, >>>especially as the shock wore off and the show >>>went on. More women were in the pit than usual >>>too. But the initial problem for the men and >>>those of us attuned to seeing women through >>>the male gaze, despite the hardcore energy of >>>the music (which is what we presumably paid >>>for), was that these women became grotesque, >>>they were parodies incarnate because these >>>were women??????s bodies with true bare >>>breasts, those sexy orbs (the site off >>>symbolic sex/sexiness), attached to real >>>monsters: women who were publicly queer and >>>therefore by default anomalies, performing >>>this killer music but not as a site for >>>masturbation or fucking. They were truly >>>threatening, scary and not to be fucked with. >>>Not one guy tried to touch them, though I????m >>>sure a few had trouble >>>processing/reconcilinling that female nudity >>>with being there to rock out. Glenum and >>>Greenberg say they????re ????describing what >>>thhat they????ve seen??????, but based on then >>>the anthology, they seem to have only seen >>>hetero-women performing gender in >>>grotesque/hybrid/paradoxical ways. Even if >>>they didn???????t try to seek out the work of >>>queer women, I know that Glenum is aware of >>>Dodie Bellamy????s poetry, which would lead on >>>one to imagine that, even if they didn????t >>>include BelBellamy????s work, they would have >>>made a conscious attempempt to seek out and >>>include work by queer-identified women that >>>includes representations/perspectives of queer >>>women, especially as sites of resistance >>>/grotesqueness / parody ? not just >>>hetero-women and girls inn thhe making. The >>>????queer woman?????????? certainly falls >>>under the category of ????representatations of >>>women?????? in the public eye that Glenum and >>>Greenberg define the anthology by. To omit any >>>work of this sort from this anthology is not >>>only a glaring omission, it????s >>>excexclusionary and does a disservice to the >>>project of the Gurlesque; the anthology >>>narrows the Gurlesque at great cost. >>>Considering that the kind of performance the >>>editors describe has long been the staple, >>>almost inherently necessary work of a queer >>>woman as soon as she owns her queerness out >>>loud, it????s shocking to exclude any work by >>>those we women. I mean, Glenum founds the >>>basis of her definition on Judith Butler, who >>>obviously ????described?????? gen gender as >>>performance ? & it????s no coinncidencidence >>>that the first theorist to publicly introduce >>>that concept was a lesbian. To make a poor >>>parallel, this anthology would be akin to >>>editing an anthology of Experimental American >>>Poetries and only including selections by >>>Language Poets or Black Mountain poets. You >>>can say it?????s ????descriptive?????? and ? >>>and ????only?????? what you ??? >>>??????noticed?????? all you want, but the >>>editors of suchch an anthology must have been >>>wearing blinders if that???????s all they >>>include. I remain frustrated because the more >>>I read from discussions online, the more I see >>>that Glenum keeps conjuring >>>????queerness?????? and Greenberg claims to to >>>have ????coined?????? the term ??? >>>??????Gurlesque?????? while also aligning it >>>withth Riot Grrrl, but to see no inclusion of >>>the queer roots of such performance, to not >>>acknowledge the ongoing work of confounding >>>the notion of ????woman?????? via queer >>>perversion / queequeer women????s burlesque ? >>>gurlesque is incredicredible. They may as well >>>mark the exclusiveness of this project as >>>defined/narrowed through this anthology and >>>say ????queering the e hetero-woman and girl >>>concept by hetero-women??????, whhich really >>>only smacks of efforts to subvert, not >>>????queeeer?????? when you don????t actually >>>ally include the queer. Just one more note and >>>I????ll stop,op, let my frustration go the way >>>of the mostly-silence on this issue: A whole >>>lot happens when a queer woman frustrates the >>>male gaze that inspires a very different >>>awareness, which emerges over time for queer >>>women. This awareness births ideas and >>>performances that are certainly co-opted and >>>appropriated by hetero-women, and that????s >>>absoluteltely fine. From the most basic of >>>signifiers like dykes wearing combat boots and >>>punking out/shearing their hair to larger >>>behaviors that I will not go into right now, >>>we have created and given permissions that may >>>not have happened for a long time for straight >>>women. I????m??m not trying to own all of the >>>subversive stuff straight women have tried on >>>or done for themselves, at all. But I >>>haven????t rt read anything in all of >>>Glenum????s and Greenberg?rg????s descriptions >>>that queer women as poets, performers,rs, >>>mothers, etc, haven????t also been >>>doing/dealing witwith and adding to the >>>conversation/culture. Just yesterday, a guy >>>didn????t like what I had to say about >>>Bukowski on a friggingin???? throw-away >>>Facebook post and, knowing I?????????m queer, >>>told me to get my ????head out of of my >>>cunt??????, made lewd claims about my >>>relations withh my ????partner?????? (his >>>quotes) in ann an effort to delegitimize my >>>relationship, and other shit ? and thaat was >>>only one tiny fraction of my experience wiith >>>men reacting to the queer grotesque monster >>>woman that I am daily. So yes, the queer >>>existence does have a leg up experientially >>>when it comes to understanding what it means >>>to perform for that male gaze while >>>simultaneously and paradoxically excising >>>one????s self from it just by default of of >>>primarily loving and being for and in relation >>>to women ? and thaaat kind of performance >>>certainly does make its way into queer >>>women????s poetry. I just can????t believe >>>tlieve these editors, two smart well-versed >>>and theoretically-inclined women, didn????t >>>come across any writing that fit that bill or >>>gi give a single nod to it, though they >>>unabashedly have no problem referencing the >>>type of work queer women have historically >>>done and continue to do. Here, have some poems >>>by Julian Brolaski and tell me how these don????t fit the Gurlesque - >> >>Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of >>Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >>http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >>"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul >>Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century >>French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so >>effectively broadened the sense of poetic >>terrain outside the United States and also >>created a superb collection of foreign poems in >>English. There is nothing else like it." John >>Palattella in The Nation > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From c.a.b.daly at gmail.com Thu Mar 25 19:23:44 2010 From: c.a.b.daly at gmail.com (Catherine Daly) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 16:23:44 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / "Outlining" / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a group?, What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc In-Reply-To: References: <454450.69444.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <235734.2761.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: gurlesque original talk http://web.archive.org/web/20040108013739/http://www.sptraffic.org/html/news_rept/gurl.html on delirious hem http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2008/04/on-gurlesque-part-1-introduction.html http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2008/04/disarming-destabilizing-creeping-out.html http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2008/05/gurlesque-part-2.html http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2008/07/gurlesque-part-3.html IMO, one might as well object to Amy's use of "queer" as "male gaze." There are several varieties of a male gaze, and in my experience, they are pretty worldwide. If you have been 12 - 35 year old woman, particularly with long hair and wearing a skirt of any length or shorts, walking down the street (in the US and Europe) or any woman walking down the street outside a major city in Asia, you've received it, although wolf whistles, cars honking, shouted solicitations, cars pulling off the side of the road, etc. -- pretty obvious signs. In most strip clubs, not burlesque shows, and putting aside the phenomenon of heterosexual women having bachelorette parties in strip clubs, there are lots of men gazing. At any beach -- even those topless beaches in Europe and Brazil -- ditto. My problem -- which I need to spell out more clearly, and probably on POETICS as that's where J. Q. talked about the New Burlesque, which I think is the right thing to mention but he starts too late because early New Burlesque was very queer positive, alternative lifestyle/sexuality, pro-sex-worker involved before all that bad dancing in supper clubs took over -- is that this is a group of women who -- I agree are not all that influenced by riotgrrls -- are also not all that influenced by female performance artists who also write: Annie Sprinkle, Laurie Anderson, Karen Finley, Lydia Lunch, Anne Waldman, the Guerilla Girls -- so there's this bizarre lacuna of influence which seems to have skipped two or three generations of feminists, artists, and feminist artists, touching down briefly for only Yoko Ono and not Eleanor Antin, Laugh In and not Mary Daly, etc. -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com From junction at earthlink.net Thu Mar 25 19:35:48 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 19:35:48 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / "Outlining" / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a group?, What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc In-Reply-To: References: <454450.69444.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <235734.2761.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Catherine: I don't think I'm being naive. Men look at women. That's biology. How they look and what actions follow are culture, and varies a lot. The phrase "male gaze" often (usually?) implies a great deal more than biology. In this case it was a generalization from the bad behavior of some young men to all men. Or it was easy to read it as such. Nuff said. I've registered my complaint. Sorry it was taken personally and responded to as such. Best, Mark At 07:23 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: >gurlesque > >original talk >http://web.archive.org/web/20040108013739/http://www.sptraffic.org/html/news_rept/gurl.html > >on delirious hem >http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2008/04/on-gurlesque-part-1-introduction.html > >http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2008/04/disarming-destabilizing-creeping-out.html > >http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2008/05/gurlesque-part-2.html > >http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2008/07/gurlesque-part-3.html > > >IMO, one might as well object to Amy's use of "queer" as "male gaze." >There are several varieties of a male gaze, and in my experience, they >are pretty worldwide. If you have been 12 - 35 year old woman, >particularly with long hair and wearing a skirt of any length or >shorts, walking down the street (in the US and Europe) or any woman >walking down the street outside a major city in Asia, you've received >it, although wolf whistles, cars honking, shouted solicitations, cars >pulling off the side of the road, etc. -- pretty obvious signs. In >most strip clubs, not burlesque shows, and putting aside the >phenomenon of heterosexual women having bachelorette parties in strip >clubs, there are lots of men gazing. At any beach -- even those >topless beaches in Europe and Brazil -- ditto. > >My problem -- which I need to spell out more clearly, and probably on >POETICS as that's where J. Q. talked about the New Burlesque, which I >think is the right thing to mention but he starts too late because >early New Burlesque was very queer positive, alternative >lifestyle/sexuality, pro-sex-worker involved before all that bad >dancing in supper clubs took over -- is that this is a group of women >who -- I agree are not all that influenced by riotgrrls -- are also >not all that influenced by female performance artists who also write: >Annie Sprinkle, Laurie Anderson, Karen Finley, Lydia Lunch, Anne >Waldman, the Guerilla Girls -- so there's this bizarre lacuna of >influence which seems to have skipped two or three generations of >feminists, artists, and feminist artists, touching down briefly for >only Yoko Ono and not Eleanor Antin, Laugh In and not Mary Daly, etc. > > >-- >All best, >Catherine Daly >c.a.b.daly at gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Mar 25 19:55:56 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 16:55:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / "Outlining" / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a group?, What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc In-Reply-To: References: <454450.69444.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <235734.2761.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <524190.81583.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Actually, Mark - my point with Tribe 8 was that the band members' queerness *confused* the male audience members (& myself, again, as noted) who might have simply been more prone to sexualize the band members. The reaction of the audience members at the Hole/Courtney Love concert was not only theoretically in line with the "male gaze" (women as sexualized entities) but was confirmed/compounded by many/most of the male audience members' very real reaction to her physical presence in *their* space/mosh pit, which was an aggressive physical undressing/feeling up/invasion of her body. No man, in my experience, has ever been fondled during a stage dive or invaded the way Love was at that moment. You do the math. My wine and meal were fine. And by the way, I appreciate C. Daly's attempt to add complexity to the issue and to trace historical lineages/uses - it's confusing but interesting, esp after only one glass of p noir: thanks, Catherine. Best, Amy ________________________________ From: Mark Weiss To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Thu, March 25, 2010 7:35:48 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / "Outlining" / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a group?, What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc Catherine: I don't think I'm being naive. Men look at women. That's biology. How they look and what actions follow are culture, and varies a lot. The phrase "male gaze" often (usually?) implies a great deal more than biology. In this case it was a generalization from the bad behavior of some young men to all men. Or it was easy to read it as such. Nuff said. I've registered my complaint. Sorry it was taken personally and responded to as such. Best, Mark At 07:23 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: gurlesque > >>original talk >http://web.archive.org/web/20040108013739/http://www.sptraffic.org/html/news_rept/gurl.html > >>on delirious hem >http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2008/04/on-gurlesque-part-1-introduction.html > >http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2008/04/disarming-destabilizing-creeping-out.html > >http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2008/05/gurlesque-part-2.html > >http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2008/07/gurlesque-part-3.html > > >>IMO, one might as well object to Amy's use of "queer" as >"male gaze." >>There are several varieties of a male gaze, and in my experience, >they >>are pretty worldwide. If you have been 12 - 35 year old woman, >>particularly with long hair and wearing a skirt of any length or >>shorts, walking down the street (in the US and Europe) or any woman >>walking down the street outside a major city in Asia, you've >received >>it, although wolf whistles, cars honking, shouted solicitations, >cars >>pulling off the side of the road, etc. -- pretty obvious signs. >In >>most strip clubs, not burlesque shows, and putting aside the >>phenomenon of heterosexual women having bachelorette parties in >strip >>clubs, there are lots of men gazing. At any beach -- even >those >>topless beaches in Europe and Brazil -- ditto. > >>My problem -- which I need to spell out more clearly, and probably >on >>POETICS as that's where J. Q. talked about the New Burlesque, which >I >>think is the right thing to mention but he starts too late because >>early New Burlesque was very queer positive, alternative >>lifestyle/sexuality, pro-sex-worker involved before all that bad >>dancing in supper clubs took over -- is that this is a group of >women >>who -- I agree are not all that influenced by riotgrrls -- are also >>not all that influenced by female performance artists who also >write: >>Annie Sprinkle, Laurie Anderson, Karen Finley, Lydia Lunch, Anne >>Waldman, the Guerilla Girls -- so there's this bizarre lacuna of >>influence which seems to have skipped two or three generations of >>feminists, artists, and feminist artists, touching down briefly for >>only Yoko Ono and not Eleanor Antin, Laugh In and not Mary Daly, >etc. > > >>-- >>All best, >>Catherine Daly >>c.a.b.daly at gmail.com >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Mar 25 20:00:09 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 17:00:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / "Outlining" / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a group?, What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc In-Reply-To: References: <454450.69444.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <235734.2761.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <772724.25312.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Thank you, Heather. As you can see, there are all sorts and forms of resistance to attempting such criticism, but I think it's necessary and ultimately, maybe will do some good by raising awareness of potential readers or getting the editors to add content for the next edition. In other words, every little bit of encouragement is very much appreciated (most of which has been backchannel for fear of betrayal or retaliation, I guess). Best, Amy ________________________________ From: Heather June Gibbons To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" Sent: Thu, March 25, 2010 6:18:39 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / "Outlining" / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a group?, What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc Mark, you don't seem to understand what Amy means by "male gaze." If you find the term itself so provocative, read Laura Mulvey and then tell us what you think. Amy's use of it in this context is completely valid and apt, so far as I can tell. Amy, I'm following the discussion and appreciate it very much. I won't weigh in on the anthology specifically until I've read it for myself, but your gripe with its hetero-exclusivity strikes me as important and topical, given the editors' frame(s) and points of reference. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. Heather On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 4:55 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > >>Ah, the retailing of stereotypes is ok, as long as it suits >convenience. > >>I'm assuming that you use the royal "we." You can assume that I >know you didn't make up the phrase. > >>Could you list other stereotypes that are ok to use despite being >misleading and demeaning? I could use the guidance. > >>Mark > > >>At 04:39 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: > >No, Mark - I don't >>"think" that. But for the sake of brevity and ideological >>discussions, we do speak about the "male gaze" esp as it frames >>"women" (i.e. Laura Mulvey posited long ago that women also see >>through a "male gaze" - ideological discussions. That >>doesn't mean women see like men.) - I don't imagine every man sees >>through the same exact eye anymore than I think all lawyers like cigars >>and cocktails at five p.m. or all hetero-women want to birth >>babies. >> >>>>Amy >>>> >>>>_______ >> >>HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: >> >>http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ >> >>>>THE GURLESQUE - NOT ENOUGH GRRRL? >> >>http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ >> >> >> >> >>From: Mark Weiss >> >>To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & >>Views" >>Sent: Thu, March 25, 2010 4:31:35 PM >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, >>Describing / "Outlining" / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, >>What's a group?, What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc >> >>>>Amy: this is reductionist to a degree that you'd probably find appalling >>if it came from a man. I know you're trafficking in ideological cliches, >>but do you honestly believe that there's a thing called "the male >>gaze" as opposed to a whole bunch of different male gazes, or for >>that matter such a thing as "the male" as opposed to a bunch of >>different "males"? Are you unaware that there are other >>variables, like age, class, education, ethnicity, that modify behavior? >>Like, who was in the audiences you describe? Were they all nonplussed by >>the "monster lesbians" or did some think ho hum and others >>fetishize her? >> >>>>Do you really assume that maleness is a whole lot less complex than >>femaleness? >> >>>>Best, >> >>>>Mark >> >>>>At 02:08 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: >> >>The more I read of how this book >>>came to be (I started with the Gurlesque anthology first), the more >>>invested I become. My opinions are taking shape, and yet, only a few, >>>especially Danielle Pafunda primarily, join me in discussing what is >>>beginning to feel like "my issue" -- I invite you to join the >>>discussion (to whet your interest, my last response, from the comments >>>thread, to Danielle is pasted below) -- >>>>>>http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ Thanks, >>>Amy Good morning, Danielle! Okay, I????m going to try to make my >>>contentiotion clearer. Let????s start with a Glenum quote from >>>Johaohannes blog: ????And Riot Grrr. Think zombified Courtney L Love in >>>her babydoll nightie, who somehow managed able to make female nudity >>>threatening and aggressive rather than erotic.??????? Two anecdotes now >>>& then my explanation in relation to the Gurlesque anthology: I loved >>>Love????s music. Once, I was at ot one of her shows, pretty intimate, >>>maybe a hundred people or so. (Drew Barrymore was even there, backstage, >>>taking care of Francis Bean) Love rocked out; she spoke aggressively, >>>wore her babydoll dress, combat boots, said lots of pro-women things, >>>etc. Late in the show, she decided to stage dive, just like any guy >>>singer would who could feel the energy from the crowd. But this crowd, >>>especially the pit-as-usual, was more than half guys. And when she got >>>carried across that pit, those men began ripping her clothes, feeling her >>>up, etc. It was all security could do to get her back, a total struggle. >>>Onstage again, she was pissed, frustrated, and could only scream into the >>>mic angrily, ????I test every crowdwd in every city, and you >>>FAILED!?????? and stormed off staage. For all of her aggression, all of >>>her posturing, all of her proclamations, her nudity was *not* >>>threatening, as Glenum claims; she remained most certainly an erotic >>>object to grab and fuck and disrespect. I've never seen a man experience >>>a stage dive even remotely similar. Moving on to Tribe 8, Riot Grrrl band >>>made up of all openly-queer women. This was one of the first shows to >>>shock me. These women got on stage, they had hot bods that fit >>>????sexy???? stereotyereotypes. Several of them took off their shirts and >>>began rocking out. Many of the men didn????t know what the fuck to do. >>>They jusjust gaped, though some got into the music, moshing a bit, >>>especially as the shock wore off and the show went on. More women were in >>>the pit than usual too. But the initial problem for the men and those of >>>us attuned to seeing women through the male gaze, despite the hardcore >>>energy of the music (which is what we presumably paid for), was that >>>these women became grotesque, they were parodies incarnate because these >>>were women??????s bodies with true bare breasts, those sexy orbs (the >>>site off symbolic sex/sexiness), attached to real monsters: women who >>>were publicly queer and therefore by default anomalies, performing this >>>killer music but not as a site for masturbation or fucking. They were >>>truly threatening, scary and not to be fucked with. Not one guy tried to >>>touch them, though I????m sure a few had trouble >>>processing/reconcilinling that female nudity with being there to rock >>>out. Glenum and Greenberg say they????re ????describing what thhat >>>they????ve seen??????, but based on then the anthology, they seem to have >>>only seen hetero-women performing gender in grotesque/hybrid/paradoxical >>>ways. Even if they didn???????t try to seek out the work of queer women, >>>I know that Glenum is aware of Dodie Bellamy????s poetry, which would >>>lead on one to imagine that, even if they didn????t include >>>BelBellamy????s work, they would have made a conscious attempempt to seek >>>out and include work by queer-identified women that includes >>>representations/perspectives of queer women, especially as sites of >>>resistance /grotesqueness / parody ? not just hetero-women and girls inn >>>thhe making. The ????queer woman?????????? certainly falls under the >>>category of ????representatations of women?????? in the public eye that >>>Glenum and Greenberg define the anthology by. To omit any work of this >>>sort from this anthology is not only a glaring omission, it????s >>>excexclusionary and does a disservice to the project of the Gurlesque; >>>the anthology narrows the Gurlesque at great cost. Considering that the >>>kind of performance the editors describe has long been the staple, almost >>>inherently necessary work of a queer woman as soon as she owns her >>>queerness out loud, it????s shocking to exclude any work by those we >>>women. I mean, Glenum founds the basis of her definition on Judith >>>Butler, who obviously ????described?????? gen gender as performance ? >>>& it????s no coinncidencidence that the first theorist to publicly >>>introduce that concept was a lesbian. To make a poor parallel, this >>>anthology would be akin to editing an anthology of Experimental American >>>Poetries and only including selections by Language Poets or Black >>>Mountain poets. You can say it?????s ????descriptive?????? and ? and >>>????only?????? what you ??? ??????noticed?????? all you want, but the >>>editors of suchch an anthology must have been wearing blinders if >>>that???????s all they include. I remain frustrated because the more I >>>read from discussions online, the more I see that Glenum keeps conjuring >>>????queerness?????? and Greenberg claims to to have ????coined?????? the >>>term ??? ??????Gurlesque?????? while also aligning it withth Riot Grrrl, >>>but to see no inclusion of the queer roots of such performance, to not >>>acknowledge the ongoing work of confounding the notion of ????woman?????? >>>via queer perversion / queequeer women????s burlesque ? gurlesque is >>>incredicredible. They may as well mark the exclusiveness of this project >>>as defined/narrowed through this anthology and say ????queering the e >>>hetero-woman and girl concept by hetero-women??????, whhich really only >>>smacks of efforts to subvert, not ????queeeer?????? when you don????t >>>actually ally include the queer. Just one more note and I????ll stop,op, >>>let my frustration go the way of the mostly-silence on this issue: A >>>whole lot happens when a queer woman frustrates the male gaze that >>>inspires a very different awareness, which emerges over time for queer >>>women. This awareness births ideas and performances that are certainly >>>co-opted and appropriated by hetero-women, and that????s absoluteltely >>>fine. From the most basic of signifiers like dykes wearing combat boots >>>and punking out/shearing their hair to larger behaviors that I will not >>>go into right now, we have created and given permissions that may not >>>have happened for a long time for straight women. I????m??m not trying to >>>own all of the subversive stuff straight women have tried on or done for >>>themselves, at all. But I haven????t rt read anything in all of >>>Glenum????s and Greenberg?rg????s descriptions that queer women as poets, >>>performers,rs, mothers, etc, haven????t also been doing/dealing witwith >>>and adding to the conversation/culture. Just yesterday, a guy didn????t >>>like what I had to say about Bukowski on a friggingin???? throw-away >>>Facebook post and, knowing I?????????m queer, told me to get my ????head >>>out of of my cunt??????, made lewd claims about my relations withh my >>>????partner?????? (his quotes) in ann an effort to delegitimize my >>>relationship, and other shit ? and thaat was only one tiny fraction of my >>>experience wiith men reacting to the queer grotesque monster woman that I >>>am daily. So yes, the queer existence does have a leg up experientially >>>when it comes to understanding what it means to perform for that male >>>gaze while simultaneously and paradoxically excising one????s self from >>>it just by default of of primarily loving and being for and in relation >>>to women ? and thaaat kind of performance certainly does make its way >>>into queer women????s poetry. I just can????t believe tlieve these >>>editors, two smart well-versed and theoretically-inclined women, >>>didn????t come across any writing that fit that bill or gi give a single >>>nod to it, though they unabashedly have no problem referencing the type >>>of work queer women have historically done and continue to do. Here, have >>>some poems by Julian Brolaski and tell me how these don????t fit the >>>Gurlesque - >>>>Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry >>(University of California Press). >>>>http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >>"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House >>Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so >>effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United >>States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. >>There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in >>The >>Nation >> >> >> >> >> >_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Thu Mar 25 20:01:10 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 17:01:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / "Outlining" / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a group?, What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc In-Reply-To: References: <454450.69444.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <235734.2761.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <737036.97695.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Thanks, Catherine - I wish there were a "visual"! Someone should trace out a timeline... Now I'm off to grade and then watch the Marriage Ref! xo, a _______ HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ THE GURLESQUE - NOT ENOUGH GRRRL? http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/22/my-visceral-thought/ ________________________________ From: Catherine Daly To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &, Views" Sent: Thu, March 25, 2010 7:23:44 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / "Outlining" / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a group?, What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc gurlesque original talk http://web.archive.org/web/20040108013739/http://www.sptraffic.org/html/news_rept/gurl.html on delirious hem http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2008/04/on-gurlesque-part-1-introduction.html http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2008/04/disarming-destabilizing-creeping-out.html http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2008/05/gurlesque-part-2.html http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2008/07/gurlesque-part-3.html IMO, one might as well object to Amy's use of "queer" as "male gaze." There are several varieties of a male gaze, and in my experience, they are pretty worldwide. If you have been 12 - 35 year old woman, particularly with long hair and wearing a skirt of any length or shorts, walking down the street (in the US and Europe) or any woman walking down the street outside a major city in Asia, you've received it, although wolf whistles, cars honking, shouted solicitations, cars pulling off the side of the road, etc. -- pretty obvious signs. In most strip clubs, not burlesque shows, and putting aside the phenomenon of heterosexual women having bachelorette parties in strip clubs, there are lots of men gazing. At any beach -- even those topless beaches in Europe and Brazil -- ditto. My problem -- which I need to spell out more clearly, and probably on POETICS as that's where J. Q. talked about the New Burlesque, which I think is the right thing to mention but he starts too late because early New Burlesque was very queer positive, alternative lifestyle/sexuality, pro-sex-worker involved before all that bad dancing in supper clubs took over -- is that this is a group of women who -- I agree are not all that influenced by riotgrrls -- are also not all that influenced by female performance artists who also write: Annie Sprinkle, Laurie Anderson, Karen Finley, Lydia Lunch, Anne Waldman, the Guerilla Girls -- so there's this bizarre lacuna of influence which seems to have skipped two or three generations of feminists, artists, and feminist artists, touching down briefly for only Yoko Ono and not Eleanor Antin, Laugh In and not Mary Daly, etc. -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Thu Mar 25 20:11:48 2010 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 16:11:48 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / "Outlining" / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a group?, What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc In-Reply-To: <524190.81583.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <454450.69444.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <235734.2761.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <524190.81583.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Oddly enough, I heard Iggy Pop describing this very thing in an interview just a month or so ago (being fondled while stage diving and being carried hand-to-hand)... thought I doubt it is a regular occurrence. On the other hand, how many male musicians stage dive into a large group of predominantly female fans, which would be a closer parallel to the Courtney Love incident? The mathematics of gender imbalance when it comes to both lead singers and mosh pit members has to play some part. c On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 3:55 PM, amy king wrote: > Actually, Mark - my point with Tribe 8 was that the band members' queerness > *confused* the male audience members (& myself, again, as noted) who might > have simply been more prone to sexualize the band members. ?The reaction of > the audience members at the Hole/Courtney Love concert was not only > theoretically in line with the "male gaze" (women as sexualized entities) > but was confirmed/compounded by many/most of the male audience members' very > real reaction to her physical presence in *their* space/mosh pit, which was > an aggressive physical undressing/feeling up/invasion of her body. ?No man, > in my experience, has ever been fondled during a stage dive or invaded the > way Love was at that moment. ?You do the math. > My wine and meal were fine. > And by the way, I appreciate C. Daly's attempt to add complexity to the > issue and to trace historical lineages/uses - it's confusing but > interesting, esp after only one glass of p noir: ?thanks, Catherine. > Best, > Amy > > ________________________________ > From: Mark Weiss > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > Sent: Thu, March 25, 2010 7:35:48 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / > "Outlining" / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a group?, What's > in a name? What's in a book?, etc > > Catherine: I don't think I'm being naive. Men look at women. That's biology. > How they look and what actions follow are culture, and varies a lot. The > phrase "male gaze" often (usually?) implies a great deal more than biology. > In this case it was a generalization from the bad behavior of some young men > to all men. Or it was easy to read it as such. > > Nuff said. I've registered my complaint. Sorry it was taken personally and > responded to as such. > > Best, > > Mark > > At 07:23 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: > > gurlesque > > original talk > http://web.archive.org/web/20040108013739/http://www.sptraffic.org/html/news_rept/gurl.html > > on delirious hem > http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2008/04/on-gurlesque-part-1-introduction.html > > http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2008/04/disarming-destabilizing-creeping-out.html > > http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2008/05/gurlesque-part-2.html > > http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2008/07/gurlesque-part-3.html > > > IMO, one might as well object to Amy's use of "queer" as "male gaze." > There are several varieties of a male gaze, and in my experience, they > are pretty worldwide.? If you have been 12 - 35 year old woman, > particularly with long hair and wearing a skirt of any length or > shorts, walking down the street (in the US and Europe) or any woman > walking down the street outside a major city in Asia, you've received > it, although wolf whistles, cars honking, shouted solicitations, cars > pulling off the side of the road, etc. -- pretty obvious signs.? In > most strip clubs, not burlesque shows, and putting aside the > phenomenon of heterosexual women having bachelorette parties in strip > clubs, there are lots of men gazing.? At any beach -- even those > topless beaches in Europe and Brazil -- ditto. > > My problem -- which I need to spell out more clearly, and probably on > POETICS as that's where J. Q. talked about the New Burlesque, which I > think is the right thing to mention but he starts too late because > early New Burlesque was very queer positive, alternative > lifestyle/sexuality, pro-sex-worker involved before all that bad > dancing in supper clubs took over -- is that this is a group of women > who -- I agree are not all that influenced by riotgrrls -- are also > not all that influenced by female performance artists who also write: > Annie Sprinkle, Laurie Anderson, Karen Finley, Lydia Lunch, Anne > Waldman, the Guerilla Girls -- so there's this bizarre lacuna of > influence which seems to have skipped two or three generations of > feminists, artists, and feminist artists, touching down briefly for > only Yoko Ono and not Eleanor Antin, Laugh In and not Mary Daly, etc. > > > -- > All best, > Catherine Daly > c.a.b.daly at gmail.com > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it."?? John Palattella in The Nation > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From jforjames at aol.com Thu Mar 25 22:22:45 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 22:22:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Ai obit Message-ID: <8CC9AA25ABFFE7F-5150-C49E@Webmail-m124.sysops.aol.com> http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2010/mar/25/poet-ai-dies National Book Award-winning poet Ai, who was born Florence Anthony but changed her name to the Japanese word for love, died at the weekend, age 62. Ai, who identified herself as Japanese, Choctaw-Chickasaw, black, Irish, southern Cheyenne and Comanche, died on Saturday after being admitted to hospital on Wednesday. The author of seven collections including Cruelty (1973), Sin (1986), Fate (1991) and Greed (1993), Ai won the National Book Award in 1999 for Vice. Her direct, often-brutal poetry, usually written in the form of a dramatic monologue, was informed by both her mixed race heritage and her feminist beliefs, according to the Poetry Foundation. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Thu Mar 25 23:04:12 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2010 23:04:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] WorldPo: Philippines' Cordero, Message-ID: <8CC9AA82576411E-FDC-D74F@webmail-m046.sysops.aol.com> http://www.voxbikol.com/bikolnews/4303/bikol-writer-present-poetics-writers-workshop Cordero, author of three award winning collections of poetry in two Bikol languages and Filipino, and a recipient of various literary awards including the Arejola Awards, Palanca, NCCA Writers' Prize, and the Maningning Miclat Poetry Prize is considered as the region's enfant terrible in Bikol contemporary writings. He will read an essay on his poetics and present his current literary project in the presence of literary luminaries \ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Mar 26 02:21:06 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 07:21:06 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / "Outlining" / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a group?, What's in a name? What's in a book?, etc In-Reply-To: References: <454450.69444.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <235734.2761.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <524190.81583.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003252321tce37e84s14100f00aa1bc42c@mail.gmail.com> Delirious, the video. Everybody knows of the male gaze, I do not even know why we are discussing it here in this moment. I do not have the statistics, but I remember when I first read it, I thought that if these were the figures, then just about every man in the Victorian Era in England looked for whores. Maybe we now have "gentlemen" and I do hope so, as I have always hoped. My best, Anny On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 1:11 AM, Chris Lott wrote: > Oddly enough, I heard Iggy Pop describing this very thing in an > interview just a month or so ago (being fondled while stage diving and > being carried hand-to-hand)... thought I doubt it is a regular > occurrence. On the other hand, how many male musicians stage dive into > a large group of predominantly female fans, which would be a closer > parallel to the Courtney Love incident? The mathematics of gender > imbalance when it comes to both lead singers and mosh pit members has > to play some part. > > c > > On Thu, Mar 25, 2010 at 3:55 PM, amy king wrote: > > Actually, Mark - my point with Tribe 8 was that the band members' > queerness > > *confused* the male audience members (& myself, again, as noted) who > might > > have simply been more prone to sexualize the band members. The reaction > of > > the audience members at the Hole/Courtney Love concert was not only > > theoretically in line with the "male gaze" (women as sexualized entities) > > but was confirmed/compounded by many/most of the male audience members' > very > > real reaction to her physical presence in *their* space/mosh pit, which > was > > an aggressive physical undressing/feeling up/invasion of her body. No > man, > > in my experience, has ever been fondled during a stage dive or invaded > the > > way Love was at that moment. You do the math. > > My wine and meal were fine. > > And by the way, I appreciate C. Daly's attempt to add complexity to the > > issue and to trace historical lineages/uses - it's confusing but > > interesting, esp after only one glass of p noir: thanks, Catherine. > > Best, > > Amy > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Mark Weiss > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > > > > Sent: Thu, March 25, 2010 7:35:48 PM > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Riot Grrrl, Burlesque Gurlesque, Describing / > > "Outlining" / defining Poetries, Queer / Queering, What's a group?, > What's > > in a name? What's in a book?, etc > > > > Catherine: I don't think I'm being naive. Men look at women. That's > biology. > > How they look and what actions follow are culture, and varies a lot. The > > phrase "male gaze" often (usually?) implies a great deal more than > biology. > > In this case it was a generalization from the bad behavior of some young > men > > to all men. Or it was easy to read it as such. > > > > Nuff said. I've registered my complaint. Sorry it was taken personally > and > > responded to as such. > > > > Best, > > > > Mark > > > > At 07:23 PM 3/25/2010, you wrote: > > > > gurlesque > > > > original talk > > > http://web.archive.org/web/20040108013739/http://www.sptraffic.org/html/news_rept/gurl.html > > > > on delirious hem > > > http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2008/04/on-gurlesque-part-1-introduction.html > > > > > http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2008/04/disarming-destabilizing-creeping-out.html > > > > http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2008/05/gurlesque-part-2.html > > > > http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2008/07/gurlesque-part-3.html > > > > > > IMO, one might as well object to Amy's use of "queer" as "male gaze." > > There are several varieties of a male gaze, and in my experience, they > > are pretty worldwide. If you have been 12 - 35 year old woman, > > particularly with long hair and wearing a skirt of any length or > > shorts, walking down the street (in the US and Europe) or any woman > > walking down the street outside a major city in Asia, you've received > > it, although wolf whistles, cars honking, shouted solicitations, cars > > pulling off the side of the road, etc. -- pretty obvious signs. In > > most strip clubs, not burlesque shows, and putting aside the > > phenomenon of heterosexual women having bachelorette parties in strip > > clubs, there are lots of men gazing. At any beach -- even those > > topless beaches in Europe and Brazil -- ditto. > > > > My problem -- which I need to spell out more clearly, and probably on > > POETICS as that's where J. Q. talked about the New Burlesque, which I > > think is the right thing to mention but he starts too late because > > early New Burlesque was very queer positive, alternative > > lifestyle/sexuality, pro-sex-worker involved before all that bad > > dancing in supper clubs took over -- is that this is a group of women > > who -- I agree are not all that influenced by riotgrrls -- are also > > not all that influenced by female performance artists who also write: > > Annie Sprinkle, Laurie Anderson, Karen Finley, Lydia Lunch, Anne > > Waldman, the Guerilla Girls -- so there's this bizarre lacuna of > > influence which seems to have skipped two or three generations of > > feminists, artists, and feminist artists, touching down briefly for > > only Yoko Ono and not Eleanor Antin, Laugh In and not Mary Daly, etc. > > > > > > -- > > All best, > > Catherine Daly > > c.a.b.daly at gmail.com > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > > California Press). > > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of > > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively > > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > > else like it." John Palattella in The Nation > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Mar 26 10:44:41 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 15:44:41 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Robert Frost's Birthday from the Almanac Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003260744v47c9d906hb0ac2a902370e181@mail.gmail.com> Happiness Makes Up in Height for What It Lacks in Length by Robert Frost Oh, stormy stormy world, The days you were not swirled Around with mist and cloud, Or wrapped as in a shroud, And the sun's brilliant ball Was not in part or all Obscured from mortal view? Were days so very few I can but wonder whence I get the lasting sense Of so much warmth and light. If my mistrust is right It may be altogether >From one day's perfect weather, When starting clear at dawn, The day swept clearly on To finish clear at eve. I verily believe My fair impression may Be all from that one day No shadow crossed but ours As through its blazing flowers We went from house to wood For change of solitude. "Happiness Makes Up in Height for What It Lacks in Length" by Robert Frost, *Collected Poems*. ? Henry Holt and Company, LLC, 1969. Reprinted with permission. (buy now) It's the birthday of the man who said, "A poem begins in delight and ends in wisdom." *Robert Frost*, (books by this author) born in San Francisco (1874). He's one of the most famous poets in American history, and the man who wrote "The Road Not Taken," "Mending Wall," "The Death of the Hired Man," "After Apple-Picking," and "Home Burial." He won the Pulitzer Prize for poetry four different times. He drew large crowds to his immensely popular poetry readings, which he preferred to call "sayings." He suffered from dark depressions. He once said, "Happiness makes up in height for what it lacks in length." When John F. Kennedy was elected president, he asked Frost to read at his inauguration, and hinted that Frost might compose a new poem for the occasion. Frost did write one, called "Dedication," but on inauguration day the sun shone brightly, making a glare on the page, which made it difficult for the nearly 87-year-old Frost to see the poem he'd recently composed. He started and stumbled; LBJ tried to shield the page with his hat, but Frost gave up and instead recited a poem that he knew by heart, "The Gift Outright," which ends: Something we were withholding made us weak. Until we found out that it was ourselves We were withholding from our land of living, And forthwith found salvation in surrender. Such as we were we gave ourselves outright (The deed of gift was many deeds of war) To the land vaguely realizing westward, But still unstoried, artless, unenhanced, Such as she was, such as she would become. He died a couple of years later, the same year as the much younger President Kennedy. -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From amyhappens at yahoo.com Fri Mar 26 12:14:55 2010 From: amyhappens at yahoo.com (amy king) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 09:14:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [New-Poetry] Reminder - TONIGHT - Jessica Bozek, Melissa Broder, Jackie Clark, Cate Marvin, Brett Eugene Ralph & Stephanie Whited! Message-ID: <875523.37991.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> March 26, Friday ~ Jessica Bozek, Melissa Broder, Jackie Clark, Cate Marvin, Brett Eugene Ralph & Stephanie Whited! March 26 @ 7 p.m. Goodbye Blue Monday in Brooklyn with Jessica Bozek is the author of The Bodyfeel Lexicon (Switchback Books) and several chapbooks. Recent poems appear in Action, Yes, Artifice, Fairy Tale Review, P-QUEUE, and Womb. Jessica runs Small Animal Project (smallanimalproject.com), a reading series and web-text experiment based in Cambridge, MA. ~ Melissa Broder is the author of WHEN YOU SAY ONE THING BUT MEAN YOUR MOTHER (Ampersand Books, February 2010). She is the curator of the Polestar Poetry Series and the Chief Editor of La Petite Zine. Broder received her BA from Tufts University and is currently in the MFA program at CCNY. She is the winner of the Jerome Lowell Dejur Award and the Stark Prize for Poetry. By day, she works as a literary publicist. Her poems have appeared in many journals, including: Opium, Shampoo, Conte and The Del Sol Review. ~ Jackie Clark is currently co-editor-in-chief for LIT magazine. She also curates Poets off Poetry at coldfrontmag.com, where poets write about music. Her chapbook Office Work is forthcoming from Greying Ghost Press. She lives in Jersey City. ~ Cate Marvin?s first book, World?s Tallest Disaster, was chosen by Robert Pinksy for the 2000 Kathryn A. Morton Prize and published by Sarabande Books in 2001. In 2002, she received the Kate Tufts Discovery Prize. Her poems have appeared in The New England Review, Poetry, The Kenyon Review, Fence, The Paris Review, The Cincinnati Review, Slate, Verse, Boston Review, and Ninth Letter. She is co-editor with poet Michael Dumanis of the anthology Legitimate Dangers: American Poets of the New Century (Sarabande Books, 2006). Her second book of poems, Fragment of the Head of a Queen, was published by Sarabande in August 2007. A recent Whiting Award recipient and 2007 NYFA Gregory Millard Fellow, she teaches poetry writing in Lesley University?s Low-Residency M.F.A. Program and is an associate professor in creative writing at the College of Staten Island, City University of New York. ~ Brett Eugene Ralph spent the better part of his youth in Louisville, Kentucky, playing football and singing in punk rock bands. His work has appeared in journals such as Conduit, Mudfish, Willow Springs, and The American Poetry Review; it has been anthologized in The McSweeney?s Book of Poets Picking Poets and The Stiffest of the Corpse: An Exquisite Corpse Reader. His first full-length collection, Black Sabbatical, was published by Sarabande Books in 2009. Brett has taught at the University of Massachusetts, Missouri State University, and the Central Institute of Buddhist Studies in the Himalayas of northern India. Currently, he lives in Empire, Kentucky, and teaches at Hopkinsville Community College. His country rock ensemble, Brett Eugene Ralph?s Kentucky Chrome Revue, can be heard in seedy dives throughout the South. ~ A New Yorker since 2001, Stephanie Whited received her BA in Psychology in 2005 from NYU which has greatly influenced her poetry. She trades her time and attention for writing, mentoring, advocating alternative health, and acting. You can find a few of her poems in the second issue of Spine Road. This is her first reading. at Goodbye Blue Monday 1087 Broadway (corner of Dodworth St) Brooklyn, NY 11221-3013 (718) 453-6343 J M Z trains to Myrtle Ave or J train to Kosciusko St ~ Hosted by Amy King and Ana Bo?i?evi? http://www.stainofpoetry.com ======================================== You are subscribed to the POETRY-l List with e-mail address amyhappens at GMAIL.COM To unsubscribe at any time, please follow these UNSUBSCRIBE instructions: Send any email (subject and text are ignored) to POETRY-l-SIGNOFF-REQUEST at GC.LISTSERV.CUNY.EDU or click here: http://gc.listserv.cuny.edu/scriptsgc/wa-gc.exe?SUBED1=POETRY-l&A=1&s=amyhappens at GMAIL.COM -- HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Mar 26 16:30:47 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 16:30:47 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] poet Sandra M. Gilbert to speak about women's literary traditions Message-ID: <8CC9B3A5A41CDAA-1030-15D21@webmail-d098.sysops.aol.com> http://www.goshen.edu/news/pressarchive/03-26-10-sandra-gilbert443.html Friday, March 26, 2010 Well-known poet Sandra M. Gilbert to speak about women's literary traditions, April 6 Sandra M. Gilbert S. A. Yoder Lecture: "Finding Atlantis: Thirty Years of Discovering Women's Literary Tradition" by poet Sandra M. Gilbert Date and time: Tuesday, April 6 at 7 p.m. Location: Goshen College Newcomer Center Room 19 Cost: Free and open to the public Event sponsor: Goshen College English Department Web site: www.sandramgilbert.com GOSHEN, Ind. ? Ground-breaking scholar, poet and author Sandra M. Gilbert will reflect on her work shaping the canon of women's literature and feminist literary criticism over the past 40 years when she speaks at Goshen College on "Finding Atlantis: Thirty Years of Discovering Women's Literary Traditions" as part of the S.A. Yoder Lecture Series on Tuesday, April 6 at 7 p.m. in the Newcomer Center Room 19. The event is free and open to the public. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Mar 26 16:32:12 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 16:32:12 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] WorldPo: China's Cui Weiping Message-ID: <8CC9B3A8CEEFDFE-1030-15DA7@webmail-d098.sysops.aol.com> http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h_Rrelh54Jf0uqmttpblmeDJdJuwD9ELPNQ00 China bans poet from traveling to US conference By CHARLES HUTZLER (AP) ? 20 hours ago BEIJING ? A pixie-ish literature professor is the latest person to run afoul of China's government, denied permission to travel to a prominent academic conference in the United States this week. Cui Weiping had her Chinese passport, U.S. visa and airplane ticket to Philadelphia in hand when, she said, officials at the Beijing Film Academy where she works called her in Sunday and told her to cancel the trip. Though they gave reasons for the denial ? she has classes to teach, her conference panel was not related to her academic discipline ? those were excuses, she said. - -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Fri Mar 26 16:35:20 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 16:35:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Selected Hirsch review Message-ID: <8CC9B3AFCCFFBFE-1030-15F27@webmail-d098.sysops.aol.com> http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/28/books/review/Campion-t.html Between Ordinary and Ecstatic By PETER CAMPION Published: March 25, 2010 Contemporary American poetry is sometimes panned for being mundane. With all the splendor and terror in the world, why should we care about some guy?s memories of high school, or the quality time he spends with his cat? Glancing over it, you might suspect that Edward Hirsch?s poetry would lend evidence to this view. Hirsch will begin a poem with a line like ?Today I am pulling on a green wool sweater? or ?Traffic was heavy coming off the bridge.? Neither opening seems to burn with that hard, gemlike flame. -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Fri Mar 26 16:38:26 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 21:38:26 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] poet Sandra M. Gilbert to speak about women's literary traditions In-Reply-To: <8CC9B3A5A41CDAA-1030-15D21@webmail-d098.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC9B3A5A41CDAA-1030-15D21@webmail-d098.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003261338u501385cbo241d98fc27f60d00@mail.gmail.com> Gilbert is best known for editing the first "Norton Anthology of Literature by Women and Feminist Literary Theory and Criticism" and her classic critical work on Victorian women writers, "The Madwoman in the Attic." On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 9:30 PM, wrote: > > http://www.goshen.edu/news/pressarchive/03-26-10-sandra-gilbert443.html > Friday, March 26, 2010 > Well-known poet Sandra M. Gilbert to speak about women's literary > traditions, April 6 > > Sandra M. Gilbert > S. A. Yoder Lecture: "Finding Atlantis: Thirty Years of Discovering Women's > Literary Tradition" by poet Sandra M. Gilbert > Date and time: Tuesday, April 6 at 7 p.m. > Location: Goshen College Newcomer Center Room 19 > Cost: Free and open to the public > Event sponsor: Goshen College English Department > Web site: www.sandramgilbert.com > GOSHEN, Ind. ? Ground-breaking scholar, poet and author Sandra M. Gilbert > will reflect on her work shaping the canon of women's literature and > feminist literary criticism over the past 40 years when she speaks at Goshen > College on "Finding Atlantis: Thirty Years of Discovering Women's Literary > Traditions" as part of the S.A. Yoder Lecture Series on Tuesday, April 6 at > 7 p.m. in the Newcomer Center Room 19. The event is free and open to the > public. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu Fri Mar 26 17:05:07 2010 From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan) Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2010 16:05:07 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: Spoon River/Call For Poetry Submissions Message-ID: <01f301cacd28$0413c1b0$0c3b4510$@edu> New Poetry Colleagues: I?m one of the readers for Spoon River but don?t let that prejudice you against it: submit, subscribe, enter the Editor?s Prize contest, and forward this notice to others. Cheers & thanks, Bill Morgan Dear Friends, I'm in the midst of taking over the editorship of The Spoon River Poetry Review, and am trying to get word out about changes in editorial vision, submissions, etc. If you would kindly forward the email below to all poets you know and trust, I'd be most grateful! Our reading period ends in just three weeks, so the faster I can reach people, the better. Thanks very much! Kirstin _________________ Kirstin Hotelling Zona Associate Professor of English Editor, The Spoon River Poetry Review Co-Host, Poetry Radio, WGLT 89.1 Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790-4240 krhotel at ilstu.edu (309) 829-3222 Dear Poet, You are receiving this email because you are a poet admired by poet-writers I admire and have reached out to. I?d like to introduce myself as the new editor of The Spoon River Poetry Review and invite you to submit your poetry to the magazine, whether you are an old fan or completely new to us, as I?m excited to diversify both content and readership. As editor, my aim is to build upon the magazine's long-standing dedication to cross-pollination by publishing excellent poems, including translations in English, from all styles and perspectives, even (especially) those that seem ? or have been situated critically ? as at odds. While SRPR already receives thousands of submissions a month, many of which are very strong, I'd like to see more diversity -- more poems by women, more poems by younger poets, more poems that explore embodiment from non-white, non-heteronormative perspectives, edgier & riskier poetics -- as well as excellent poetry that might be identified as more "mainstream." I enjoy reading poems from a wide variety of sensibilities and aesthetics, and am dedicated, as editor, to attracting and cultivating a readership that doesn't feel the need to choose from among various styles and schools, even as the politics of creation and production are brought into relief. I don't, however, want to confuse breadth with anything-gos!; as I put it in the forthcoming Poet?s Market, "Spoon River is looking for poems that are as intellectually and emotionally ambitious as they are attentive to technique." Please send your poems, postmarked no later than April 15th, to: The Spoon River Poetry Review, 41/Publications Unit, Illinois State University, Normal IL 61790-4241. We are also accepting submissions now for our annual Editors' Prize Contest (up to three poems; single long poems welcome; 10 pages max). Winner receives $1000 & publication; two runners-up receive $100 each and publication; 3-5 honorable mentions receive publication. Postmark deadline is extended this year, to accommodate the transition of editorship, until May 1, 2010. The $15.00 reading fee includes a one-year subscription. Please see our website for complete submission and contest details (we?re in the process of updating the website, too!): www.litline.org/Spoon. And finally, if you?d like to subscribe to the magazine, the cost is $15.00 for individuals, $18.00 for institutions. Our state funding was cut by over 70% percent this year, so we are in serious need of grass-roots support. To subscribe, send a check or money order (made out to The Spoon River Poetry Review), to The Spoon River Poetry Review, 4241 Department of English, Illinois State University, Normal, IL 61790-4241. Thank you, and I look forward to reading your work and to hearing your feedback! All best, Kirstin _________________ Kirstin Hotelling Zona Associate Professor of English Editor, The Spoon River Poetry Review Co-Host, Poetry Radio, WGLT 89.1 Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790-4240 krhotel at ilstu.edu (309) 829-3222 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Sat Mar 27 14:27:22 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 14:27:22 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] query Message-ID: This came up on another list. Ben Jonson's poetry was very important for me as a young and not-so-young poet--for years until I packed my library up to leave California the book lay next to my bed. I wonder do younger poets still read him except in the occasional survey course? Best, Mark Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Sat Mar 27 18:37:15 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2010 23:37:15 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] How stats Canada distorted the public perception of violence against women Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003271537s73f863a5s8db885cb7befc2ae@mail.gmail.com> Because of the manner in which the results of the VAWS are reported and the subsequent omissions discovered, we conclude that Stats Can survey trivializes the experiences of women who are victims of serious abuse and impedes our understanding of the nature of intimate and conflictual relationships in contemporary society. http://www.reenasommerassociates.mb.ca/a_new.html -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Mar 28 10:21:58 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 09:21:58 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Ai Message-ID: <3F0C4DA7-4917-4B5E-B778-105BC3AA7C91@ripon.edu> Here's one more article on Ai that I haven't noticed being posted: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/28/books/28ai.html Curious to me how little response and discussion there has been, generally, for a poet of such long career and high reputation. Not sure what it means. I heard Ai read once, way back when *Cruelty* first came out, but I never knew her personally. So I can't speak to her personality, but it's certainly true that her work is fairly forbidding, bleak, discomfitting, unrelenting. She was never my favorite poet, that's for sure. Maybe she was just too draining to immerse myself in for long. Like so many others, I was blown away by her early work--there was nothing else quite like it. But over the years I found myself not following her much, feeling--rightly or wrongly--that there was a sameness to her vision that came through no matter which different voice she chose to speak in. I'll have to revisit some of the later, post-Cruelty work again to see what I now think, but at the time her monologues in the voices of various celebrities started to appear, I gradually lost interest. And even the starkly grim book titles (Cruelty, Vice, Killing Floor, Sin, Greed, Dread) started to seem to me to display a narrowness of emphasis that eventually was just oppressive. Or so it seems at this moment. I realized when I heard of her death that I hadn't looked at her poems for years, and don't know the later work at all. I'll have to see if the narrowness is, as seems more than likely, my own. Anyone have suggestions about what the best of the later books and later poems might be? ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From AlMaginnes at aol.com Sun Mar 28 10:28:11 2010 From: AlMaginnes at aol.com (AlMaginnes at aol.com) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 10:28:11 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] More Ai Message-ID: <49a96.17fda339.38e0c17b@aol.com> Wasn't there a new and selected some years back? Might be a place to start. I think there's a new book coming out as well. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Sun Mar 28 10:31:50 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 09:31:50 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jonson query In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1385113A-C60B-4E51-81C2-00E08F361746@ripon.edu> On Mar 27, 2010, at 1:27 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > This came up on another list. Ben Jonson's poetry was very important for me as a young and not-so-young poet--for years until I packed my library up to leave California the book lay next to my bed. I wonder do younger poets still read him except in the occasional survey course? > > Best, > > Mark ==================== I certainly am not a younger poet, and so can't speak to what they may think of Ben Jonson. Even when I was in grad school, however, back in the 1970s, it seemed that his entire century wasn't much in fashion. And I can't recall any discussion of his work in any MFA workshop I ever attended. Or in any of the recent blogs that I follow, come to think of it--except for the also-not-young Tom Clark, whose blog is always worth it, incidentally. (http://tomclarkblog.blogspot.com/) Twenty five years ago I heard Hugh Kenner deliver a very intriguing lecture in which he discussed Jonson's importance to Yeats. I can't now remember if that was the main point of the talk or if it's just the part that stuck with me. Does anyone know if Kenner ever published an essay on that topic? ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jforjames at aol.com Sun Mar 28 10:49:27 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 10:49:27 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] WorldPo: Nigerian-born poet Chris Abani Message-ID: <8CC9C9D000151B3-3AAC-1682F@Webmail-d121.sysops.aol.com> http://www.philly.com/philly/entertainment/89259657.html Poetry of cruelty and love A Nigerian who endured prison and torture writes with grace and wit. Sanctificum By Chris Abani Copper Canyon Press. 96 pp. $15 Reviewed by Beth Seetch -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sanctificum, the fifth book of poems by Nigerian-born poet Chris Abani, is a blessing, a work of heart and mind backed up by surpassing skill. Poem by poem, it investigates human cruelty - "darkness that can burn the cornea" - alongside redeeming love, and steadily earns its risky, final lines in "Renewal": -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Sun Mar 28 10:51:31 2010 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 10:51:31 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] More Ai In-Reply-To: <3F0C4DA7-4917-4B5E-B778-105BC3AA7C91@ripon.edu> References: <3F0C4DA7-4917-4B5E-B778-105BC3AA7C91@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4BAF6CF3.60002@opus40.org> All it means for me is no time -- much respect and admiration for Ai. David Graham wrote: > Here's one more article on Ai that I haven't noticed being posted: > > http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/28/books/28ai.html > > Curious to me how little response and discussion there has been, > generally, for a poet of such long career and high reputation. Not > sure what it means. I heard Ai read once, way back when *Cruelty* > first came out, but I never knew her personally. So I can't speak to > her personality, but it's certainly true that her work is fairly > forbidding, bleak, discomfitting, unrelenting. She was never my > favorite poet, that's for sure. Maybe she was just too draining to > immerse myself in for long. > > Like so many others, I was blown away by her early work--there was > nothing else quite like it. But over the years I found myself not > following her much, feeling--rightly or wrongly--that there was a > sameness to her vision that came through no matter which different > voice she chose to speak in. I'll have to revisit some of the later, > post-Cruelty work again to see what I now think, but at the time her > monologues in the voices of various celebrities started to appear, I > gradually lost interest. And even the starkly grim book titles > (Cruelty, Vice, Killing Floor, Sin, Greed, Dread) started to seem to > me to display a narrowness of emphasis that eventually was just > oppressive. > > Or so it seems at this moment. I realized when I heard of her death > that I hadn't looked at her poems for years, and don't know the later > work at all. I'll have to see if the narrowness is, as seems more > than likely, my own. > > Anyone have suggestions about what the best of the later books and > later poems might be? > > > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From jforjames at aol.com Sun Mar 28 10:55:20 2010 From: jforjames at aol.com (jforjames at aol.com) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 10:55:20 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] WorldPo: Saudi poet bright star for Women's Rights Message-ID: <8CC9C9DD26B14F8-3AAC-168E3@Webmail-d121.sysops.aol.com> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-lundberg/saudi-poet-is-a-bright-st_b_514929.html Every Wednesday night, Hissa Hilal steps on to the stage of the popular Abu Dhabi television show The Million's Poet. As is required of Saudi women appearing in public, she is covered from head to toe in a traditional abaya. Facing an audience carefully segregated by gender, she recites poetry that brazenly calls out for women's rights and the end of Islamic extremism. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com Sun Mar 28 11:14:15 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 16:14:15 +0100 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Jonson query In-Reply-To: <1385113A-C60B-4E51-81C2-00E08F361746@ripon.edu> References: <1385113A-C60B-4E51-81C2-00E08F361746@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <46F7FEEC9C4546BBB0F236255D4BF872@RobinLaptopPC> << Twenty five years ago I heard Hugh Kenner deliver a very intriguing lecture in which he discussed Jonson's importance to Yeats. I can't now remember if that was the main point of the talk or if it's just the part that stuck with me. Does anyone know if Kenner ever published an essay on that topic? >> Marginally related, and I don't know if he ever published commentary on it, but his anthology, I can't remember the exact title off-hand, _Seventeenth Century Poetry_, I think, "The Schools of Donne and Jonson", was bloody good, about the best game in town at one point (and possibly still is). That featured both Jonson and the Sons of Ben very strongly, as a balance to Grierson's line in the _Metaphysical Lyrics and Poetry_ anthology of 1923 (?), that started so much when Eliot reviewed it for the TLS. The importance of Jonson, and the line stretching back behind Jonson, was first argued by Yvor Winters in the 1930s in a couple of articles in _Poetry_. Interesting that Winters published them there rather than in an *academic journal. Robin From wwmorgan at ilstu.edu Sun Mar 28 14:04:02 2010 From: wwmorgan at ilstu.edu (Bill Morgan) Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2010 13:04:02 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] FW: Spoon River/Call For Poetry Submissions Message-ID: <026a01cacea1$0d476640$27d632c0$@edu> Just a small correction to the announcement below: the entry fee for the Editor?s Prize is $16.00 instead of $15.00, as indicated in the first announcement. Sorry for the mis-information. (If you?ve already sent in $15.00 on the basis of the earlier email, I?ll offer to cover the extra $1.00!) tight lines, Bill Morgan New Poetry Colleagues: I?m one of the readers for Spoon River but don?t let that prejudice you against it: submit, subscribe, enter the Editor?s Prize contest, and forward this notice to others. Cheers & thanks, Bill Morgan Dear Friends, I'm in the midst of taking over the editorship of The Spoon River Poetry Review, and am trying to get word out about changes in editorial vision, submissions, etc. If you would kindly forward the email below to all poets you know and trust, I'd be most grateful! Our reading period ends in just three weeks, so the faster I can reach people, the better. Thanks very much! Kirstin _________________ Kirstin Hotelling Zona Associate Professor of English Editor, The Spoon River Poetry Review Co-Host, Poetry Radio, WGLT 89.1 Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790-4240 krhotel at ilstu.edu (309) 829-3222 Dear Poet, You are receiving this email because you are a poet admired by poet-writers I admire and have reached out to. I?d like to introduce myself as the new editor of The Spoon River Poetry Review and invite you to submit your poetry to the magazine, whether you are an old fan or completely new to us, as I?m excited to diversify both content and readership. As editor, my aim is to build upon the magazine's long-standing dedication to cross-pollination by publishing excellent poems, including translations in English, from all styles and perspectives, even (especially) those that seem ? or have been situated critically ? as at odds. While SRPR already receives thousands of submissions a month, many of which are very strong, I'd like to see more diversity -- more poems by women, more poems by younger poets, more poems that explore embodiment from non-white, non-heteronormative perspectives, edgier & riskier poetics -- as well as excellent poetry that might be identified as more "mainstream." I enjoy reading poems from a wide variety of sensibilities and aesthetics, and am dedicated, as editor, to attracting and cultivating a readership that doesn't feel the need to choose from among various styles and schools, even as the politics of creation and production are brought into relief. I don't, however, want to confuse breadth with anything-gos!; as I put it in the forthcoming Poet?s Market, "Spoon River is looking for poems that are as intellectually and emotionally ambitious as they are attentive to technique." Please send your poems, postmarked no later than April 15th, to: The Spoon River Poetry Review, 41/Publications Unit, Illinois State University, Normal IL 61790-4241. We are also accepting submissions now for our annual Editors' Prize Contest (up to three poems; single long poems welcome; 10 pages max). Winner receives $1000 & publication; two runners-up receive $100 each and publication; 3-5 honorable mentions receive publication. Postmark deadline is extended this year, to accommodate the transition of editorship, until May 1, 2010. The $15.00 reading fee includes a one-year subscription. Please see our website for complete submission and contest details (we?re in the process of updating the website, too!): www.litline.org/Spoon. And finally, if you?d like to subscribe to the magazine, the cost is $15.00 for individuals, $18.00 for institutions. Our state funding was cut by over 70% percent this year, so we are in serious need of grass-roots support. To subscribe, send a check or money order (made out to The Spoon River Poetry Review), to The Spoon River Poetry Review, 4241 Department of English, Illinois State University, Normal, IL 61790-4241. Thank you, and I look forward to reading your work and to hearing your feedback! All best, Kirstin _________________ Kirstin Hotelling Zona Associate Professor of English Editor, The Spoon River Poetry Review Co-Host, Poetry Radio, WGLT 89.1 Illinois State University Normal, IL 61790-4240 krhotel at ilstu.edu (309) 829-3222 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon Mar 29 11:30:11 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:30:11 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Seriously Funny toot Message-ID: I am seriously amused, delighted, & strangely proud to be included in the new poetry anthology SERIOUSLY FUNNY, especially since my poem appears in the section titled "The Power of Weirdness." I'm right between Stephen Dunn and Bob Hicok, and not far from Albert Goldbarth, John Ashbery, and Jennifer L. Knox. The anthology is edited by Barbara Hamby & David Kirby. U Georgia Press. Check out its Amazon page here: http://www.amazon.com/Seriously-Funny-Religion-Politics-Everything/dp/082033 569X/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269876098&sr=1-3 ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Mar 29 11:43:21 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 08:43:21 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] Seriously Funny toot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003290843wcc0db0ej93aec76701ccd49@mail.gmail.com> Congratulations! Anny On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 8:30 AM, David Graham wrote: > > I am seriously amused, delighted, & strangely proud to be included in the > new poetry anthology SERIOUSLY FUNNY, especially since my poem appears in > the section titled "The Power of Weirdness." I'm right between Stephen Dunn > and Bob Hicok, and not far from Albert Goldbarth, John Ashbery, and Jennifer > L. Knox. > > The anthology is edited by Barbara Hamby & David Kirby. U Georgia Press. > Check out its Amazon page here: > > > > http://www.amazon.com/Seriously-Funny-Religion-Politics-Everything/dp/082033569X/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269876098&sr=1-3 > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/ > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ==================================================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From Opus40-01 at opus40.org Mon Mar 29 11:45:39 2010 From: Opus40-01 at opus40.org (TheOldMole) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:45:39 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Seriously Funny toot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BB0CB23.30801@opus40.org> Looks funny. Seriously. David Graham wrote: > > I am seriously amused, delighted, & strangely proud to be included in > the new poetry anthology SERIOUSLY FUNNY, especially since my poem > appears in the section titled "The Power of Weirdness." I'm right > between Stephen Dunn and Bob Hicok, and not far from Albert Goldbarth, > John Ashbery, and Jennifer L. Knox. > > The anthology is edited by Barbara Hamby & David Kirby. U Georgia > Press. Check out its Amazon page here: > > > http://www.amazon.com/Seriously-Funny-Religion-Politics-Everything/dp/082033569X/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269876098&sr=1-3 > > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/ > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ==================================================== > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From Rsgwynn1 at cs.com Mon Mar 29 11:50:37 2010 From: Rsgwynn1 at cs.com (Rsgwynn1 at cs.com) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:50:37 EDT Subject: [New-Poetry] Seriously Funny toot Message-ID: <84523.338ea5da.38e2264d@cs.com> In a message dated 3/29/2010 10:30:28 AM Central Daylight Time, grahamd at ripon.edu writes: > > I am seriously amused, delighted, &strangely proud to be included in the > new poetry anthology SERIOUSLY FUNNY, especially since my poem appears in > the section titled "The Power of Weirdness." I'm right between Stephen Dunn > and Bob Hicok, and not far from Albert Goldbarth, John Ashbery, and > Jennifer L. Knox. > > The anthology is edited by Barbara Hamby &David Kirby. U Georgia Press. > Check out its Amazon page here: > > > > http://www.amazon.com/Seriously-Funny-Religion-Politics-Everything/dp/082033569X/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269876098&sr=1-3 > MeN2! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Mon Mar 29 12:01:29 2010 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 08:01:29 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] live on your nerve? Message-ID: What is the quotation to the effect that one must "live on your nerve" or "go on your nerve" or something like that? Sorry to be so vague, but it's driving me mad! c From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon Mar 29 12:05:10 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:05:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: live on your nerve? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: You may be recollecting Frank O'Hara's "Personism" essay? On 3/29/10 11:01 AM, "Chris Lott" wrote: > What is the quotation to the effect that one must "live on your nerve" > or "go on your nerve" or something like that? Sorry to be so vague, > but it's driving me mad! > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== From grahamd at ripon.edu Mon Mar 29 12:06:47 2010 From: grahamd at ripon.edu (David Graham) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 11:06:47 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Personism Message-ID: http://www.personism.com/works-by-frank-ohara/personism/ I hate Vachel Lindsay, always have; I don?t even like rhythm, assonance, all that stuff. You just go on your nerve. If someone?s chasing you down the street with a knife you just run, you don?t turn around and shout, "Give it up! I was a track star for Mineola Prep." -- ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From chris at chrislott.org Mon Mar 29 12:07:20 2010 From: chris at chrislott.org (Chris Lott) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 08:07:20 -0800 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: live on your nerve? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's it! Thanks. c On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 8:05 AM, David Graham wrote: > You may be recollecting Frank O'Hara's "Personism" essay? > > > > > On 3/29/10 11:01 AM, "Chris Lott" wrote: > >> What is the quotation to the effect that one must "live on your nerve" >> or "go on your nerve" or something like that? Sorry to be so vague, >> but it's driving me mad! >> >> c >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/ > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ==================================================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From halvard at gmail.com Mon Mar 29 12:11:45 2010 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:11:45 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Seriously Funny toot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You've gotta be kidding! Seriously. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye (downloadable and free) is @ http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 11:30 AM, David Graham wrote: > > I am seriously amused, delighted, & strangely proud to be included in the > new poetry anthology SERIOUSLY FUNNY, especially since my poem appears in > the section titled "The Power of Weirdness." I'm right between Stephen Dunn > and Bob Hicok, and not far from Albert Goldbarth, John Ashbery, and Jennifer > L. Knox. > > The anthology is edited by Barbara Hamby & David Kirby. U Georgia Press. > Check out its Amazon page here: > > > > http://www.amazon.com/Seriously-Funny-Religion-Politics-Everything/dp/082033569X/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269876098&sr=1-3 > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/ > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ==================================================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From halvard at gmail.com Mon Mar 29 12:16:32 2010 From: halvard at gmail.com (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:16:32 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Personism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Personism is just peronism with one s too many. Hal Halvard Johnson ================ The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye (downloadable and free) is @ http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 12:06 PM, David Graham wrote: > http://www.personism.com/works-by-frank-ohara/personism/ > > > I hate Vachel Lindsay, always have; I don?t even like rhythm, assonance, > all that stuff. You just go on your nerve. If someone?s chasing you down the > street with a knife you just run, you don?t turn around and shout, "Give it > up! I was a track star for Mineola Prep." > -- > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/ > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ==================================================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From jbalizsprince at googlemail.com Mon Mar 29 12:22:37 2010 From: jbalizsprince at googlemail.com (Judy Prince) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:22:37 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Personism In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7db1d01b1003290922m6dacc5bcnc563ac9199beca90@mail.gmail.com> The words that'll provide most of the workings for our lives. Judy On 29 March 2010 12:06, David Graham wrote: > http://www.personism.com/works-by-frank-ohara/personism/ > > > I hate Vachel Lindsay, always have; I don?t even like rhythm, assonance, > all that stuff. You just go on your nerve. If someone?s chasing you down the > street with a knife you just run, you don?t turn around and shout, "Give it > up! I was a track star for Mineola Prep." > -- > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/ > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ==================================================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- "Southern hospitality has ten years left." --Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net Mon Mar 29 13:49:10 2010 From: bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 12:49:10 -0500 Subject: [New-Poetry] Personism In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b1003290922m6dacc5bcnc563ac9199beca90@mail.gmail.com> References: <7db1d01b1003290922m6dacc5bcnc563ac9199beca90@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BB0E816.90903@nut-n-but.net> Not for me, Judy. > The words that'll provide most of the workings for our lives. > > Judy > > On 29 March 2010 12:06, David Graham > wrote: > > http://www.personism.com/works-by-frank-ohara/personism/ > > > I hate Vachel Lindsay, always have; I don?t even like rhythm, > assonance, all that stuff. You just go on your nerve. If someone?s > chasing you down the street with a knife you just run, you don?t > turn around and shout, "Give it up! I was a track star for Mineola > Prep." > -- > > > ==================================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/ > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ==================================================== > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > "Southern hospitality has ten years left." --Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA > > http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ > > Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From anny.ballardini at gmail.com Mon Mar 29 13:32:52 2010 From: anny.ballardini at gmail.com (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 10:32:52 -0700 Subject: [New-Poetry] A question Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003291032w166b4815y97f60bc9372b483b@mail.gmail.com> I need some feedback for a page I would like to draw. Have you seen any particular pages online that attracted your attention? I would be very grateful if you sent some links, I might even collect them or on my blog, as Amy King does, or on the Corner. Thank you for your time, Anny -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From junction at earthlink.net Mon Mar 29 14:40:50 2010 From: junction at earthlink.net (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2010 14:40:50 -0400 Subject: [New-Poetry] Seriously Funny toot In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: David: Congrats! How about posting your poem here? Best, Mark At 11:30 AM 3/29/2010, you wrote: > >I am seriously amused, delighted, & strangely proud to be included >in the new poetry anthology SERIOUSLY FUNNY, especially since my >poem appears in the section titled "The Power of Weirdness." I'm >right between Stephen Dunn and Bob Hicok, and not far from Albert >Goldbarth, John Ashbery, and Jennifer L. Knox. > >The anthology is edited by Barbara Hamby & David Kirby. U Georgia >Press. Check out its Amazon page here: > > > >http://www.amazon.com/Seriously-Funny-Religion-Politics-Everything/dp/082033569X/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1269876098&sr=1-3 > > >==================================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu >Home Page: >http://web.me.com/drjazz/ > >Poetry Library: >http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >==================================================== > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: From cervantes.james Mon Mar 1 08:13:51 2010 From: cervantes.james (James Cervantes) Date: Mon Mar 1 08:13:51 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Spring 2010 issue of The Salt River Review Message-ID: <648208b61003010701r340ac358if828775ba255c515@mail.gmail.com> The Spring 2010 issue of The Salt River Review is online: Poetry by Avik Chanda, Johannes Beilharz , J.A. Hawley, Olvido Garc?a Vald?s, translated by Catherine Hammond, Changming Yuan, Larry Goodell, Wendy Taylor Carlisle. Fiction by Marja Hagborg, Terence Kuch, J.Kaval, Jill Stegman, Cassandra Passarelli, Rochelle Cashdan. Belles Lettres: Wherein prose poems, nonfiction, essays, and other writings are found: Corey Mesler, J.A. Hawley, Pamela Stewart. At: http://www.poetserv.org A new addition to the site is an Author Index (in-progress) -- Jim ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100301/1a93f1d3/attachment.html From jforjames Mon Mar 1 08:19:26 2010 From: jforjames (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Mar 1 08:19:26 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] WorldPo: New documentary on Nobel laureate Szymborska In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b1002281927v5d5e9f79t5014c2e2ab171f32@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CC86AED118574A-47DC-1A2DC@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <7db1d01b1002281927v5d5e9f79t5014c2e2ab171f32@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CC8767FB518ABF-4AC-A3B2@webmail-m028.sysops.aol.com> Judy, I don't know. I imagine after it has its release and plays at theatres and colleges and such, they'll put it up on the web somewhere for viewing or allow downloads of it. Jim F -----Original Message----- From: Judy Prince To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Sun, Feb 28, 2010 10:27 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] WorldPo: New documentary on Nobel laureate Szymborska James, this is wonderful---but how/where can we see the documentary? Best, Judy On 28 February 2010 12:01, wrote: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jS5gjNs6R-8yD12iTBeBGf4ypUawD9E57P5G0 New documentary on Nobel laureate Szymborska WARSAW, Poland ? A rare documentary about Nobel Prize winning poet Wislawa Szymborska portrays a lively yet distinguished woman who savors the world's contrasts, from 17th-century Dutch painting to boxing. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100301/87fc06e5/attachment.html From bircumplus Mon Mar 1 09:48:39 2010 From: bircumplus (David Bircumshaw) Date: Mon Mar 1 09:48:39 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu> <8CC86B9EC8F3F94-47DC-1B178@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <648208b61002281047w262b5ee1p3f0c44e8213eccb@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71002281054g9f84fcbo2b3b8d91e2bc815d@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71002281133ue494a5au214bda26599ca09f@mail.gmail.com> <8CC86E79962E54D-47DC-1EF93@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <8CC86F8DE4DCF70-47DC-20A94@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <8CC86FA6F5A410B-47DC-20CDD@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> It's been interesting watching the river flow on this and?related topics here lately. There are certainly ominous signs of something similar beginning in the UK and what seems to come across is that "being a recognised poet" is subtly linked with a kind of certificate of middleclassdom. Even though its bearers would loudly deny the?category. I can hardly begin to describe the drabness of the poetry they are producing: it makes me want to cry. There is a kind of army of the tin-eared and tedious emerging from the swamp, particularly at locations familiar to Robin such as De Montfort University. And they want to own, to control everything. Any independent life within the poetry scene is anathema to them, it disturbs their sense of their own class status. I've been closely involved with?a workshop similar to the one Roger described for 19 years, yet I am almost?physically being forced out by such people. One of the curiosities of the situation is that they seem to find allies in the performance poetry scene - I don't know if that happens in the US or whether it is that here matters are more purely that of networks of class closing in the face of recession, because the web of mediocrity?gathers in the middle-class amateur poet happily too, as long as they're amenable. But it's no genteel suffocation: these characters play dirty - in the first post after Christmas I had a letter informing me of my 'resignation' from a group I had been involved with, on my birthday I had another letter making veiled threatd of a legal kind unless I surrendered to them some software (which consisted of a copy of a free disk given away by a pc magazine) which they considered their 'intellectual property'. They are small, talentless, vindictive suburbanites, and are probably setting up a poetry press right now near you anytime soon, as it were. ?David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com ________________________________ From: Mark Weiss To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Mon, 1 March, 2010 2:33:12 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place It's usually a battle within lit departments, unless creative writing becomes its own departmewnt. Has a lot to do with who would get to vote on budget and hires if there were suddenly a bunch of creative writing profs with votes. In the cases I know of the dean usually steps in and weighs in on the side of creative writing, which is a real cash cow. All of this is usually clothed in questions of principle, and I'm sure many of the oarticipants believe it, but it's finally about money and power, and the prestige that brings money and power. Mark At 09:02 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: I was just thinking that at Yale one can get MFA in Painting, but not one in Poetry. Some of the strong lit programs have not formed MFA in Creative Writing programs. >Finnegan >? >? >-----Original Message----- >From: Mark Weiss >To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views >Sent: Sun, Feb 28, 2010 8:54 pm >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place > >Might get you an adjunct job, but not in CW. It's not considered a terminal degree. > >At 08:51 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: > >Does the straight MA in English carry an weight? >>Finnegan >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetryAnnouncing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it."?? John Palattella in The Nation ??????????????????????????????????????????? > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it."?? John Palattella in The Nation ???????? ???????? ???????? ???????? ???????? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100301/1ca330d2/attachment.html From AlMaginnes Mon Mar 1 10:34:21 2010 From: AlMaginnes (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Mar 1 10:34:21 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place Message-ID: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> All this talk of the drabness produced by poets in workshops and MFA programs is rather pointless unless the accusers are willing to name names. Who exactly is producing this bad poetry? Or maybe more to the point, whose students are producing this bad poetry? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100301/5755c4cb/attachment.html From robin.hamilton2 Mon Mar 1 10:53:48 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon Mar 1 10:53:48 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> Message-ID: <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> << All this talk of the drabness produced by poets in workshops and MFA programs is rather pointless unless the accusers are willing to name names. Who exactly is producing this bad poetry? Or maybe more to the point, whose students are producing this bad poetry? >> Al has sorta a point here, and I was almost tempted to go somewhere and read some of the material. "Go forth and read some MFAers poetry -- you *know it's good for you." But the problem is finding a black swan ... or wading through masses of whatever. (Back to that *other prerenial debate on the Web and poetry, that as with the Great MFA Debate, all too often generates the usual glumly familiar partial answers.) But there's another way of approaching it. Of five poets whom you read recently, which of them were affiliated with the MFA system? Not just ones published who you're reading, but generally. (But even that's couching the question with a built in bias, as I'm sure no one is suggesting that absolutely all and every poet in any way associated with an MFA course is worthless. By sheer random chance, at the very least, some might be good. Or good *despite the MFA system?) So the last five I've been reading: Patrick Macmanus Simon Armitage Paul Blackburn nick-e melville Tom Leonard Mind you, given that Tom *did teach on an MA in Creative Writing course, maybe one of the five could be counted in. Or maybe the whole "name names" business is a misdirection. Maybe not. I'd turn the question back to Al -- name one poet produced by the MFA system who is worth reading? The problem here is partly sheer mediocrity, and like the poor, that always has been and always will be with us. Just seems to be more of it around than usual at the moment. Or maybe that's just my imagination ... Robin _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From AlMaginnes Mon Mar 1 11:10:50 2010 From: AlMaginnes (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Mar 1 11:10:50 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place Message-ID: <1a40b.57a663ec.38bd5a52@aol.com> One? Well, taste is subjective, as we all know, but here are a few just off the top of my head: David Wojahn Lisa Lewis Claudia Emerson Beth Ann Fennelly Bob Hicok C.D. Wright Charles Wright Donald Justice Philip Levine Larry Levis David St. John Leslie Adrienne Miller Frank X. Gaspar Christopher Buckley (the California poet, not the bad novelist) George Looney Dean Young Tony Hoagland -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100301/da125a52/attachment.html From c.a.b.daly Mon Mar 1 11:18:04 2010 From: c.a.b.daly (Catherine Daly) Date: Mon Mar 1 11:18:04 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: this is something of a mislead, as most everyone who is publishing first or second books on bigger presses/bigger prizes has an MFA the grad program journals and presses mostly publish those with MFAs -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com From skip Mon Mar 1 11:34:02 2010 From: skip (Skip Fox) Date: Mon Mar 1 11:34:02 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu> My 2 bits. Actually a question. Becoming a poet out of the academy predisposed me to look askance at poetry produced in the academy. And even after I was teaching for over 20 years I felt the same way, feeling (rightly or wrongly) that the poets I liked were those who (though they may have been professors) I felt were non-academic. Frankly, I still tend to still feel that way after 28 years. (Although that may be beginning to change.) BUT when I started reading tons of contemporary fiction, I found great writing coming out of creative writing programs. Are poets in creative writing programs more career oriented (writing to one of several contemporary styles, networking, prize junkies, etc.), compared to fiction writers, or is that my distorted perspective? -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Bircumshaw Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 10:37 AM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place It's been interesting watching the river flow on this and related topics here lately. There are certainly ominous signs of something similar beginning in the UK and what seems to come across is that "being a recognised poet" is subtly linked with a kind of certificate of middleclassdom. Even though its bearers would loudly deny the category. I can hardly begin to describe the drabness of the poetry they are producing: it makes me want to cry. There is a kind of army of the tin-eared and tedious emerging from the swamp, particularly at locations familiar to Robin such as De Montfort University. And they want to own, to control everything. Any independent life within the poetry scene is anathema to them, it disturbs their sense of their own class status. I've been closely involved with a workshop similar to the one Roger described for 19 years, yet I am almost physically being forced out by such people. One of the curiosities of the situation is that they seem to find allies in the performance poetry scene - I don't know if that happens in the US or whether it is that here matters are more purely that of networks of class closing in the face of recession, because the web of mediocrity gathers in the middle-class amateur poet happily too, as long as they're amenable. But it's no genteel suffocation: these characters play dirty - in the first post after Christmas I had a letter informing me of my 'resignation' from a group I had been involved with, on my birthday I had another letter making veiled threatd of a legal kind unless I surrendered to them some software (which consisted of a copy of a free disk given away by a pc magazine) which they considered their 'intellectual property'. They are small, talentless, vindictive suburbanites, and are probably setting up a poetry press right now near you anytime soon, as it were. David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com _____ From: Mark Weiss To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Mon, 1 March, 2010 2:33:12 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place It's usually a battle within lit departments, unless creative writing becomes its own departmewnt. Has a lot to do with who would get to vote on budget and hires if there were suddenly a bunch of creative writing profs with votes. In the cases I know of the dean usually steps in and weighs in on the side of creative writing, which is a real cash cow. All of this is usually clothed in questions of principle, and I'm sure many of the oarticipants believe it, but it's finally about money and power, and the prestige that brings money and power. Mark At 09:02 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: I was just thinking that at Yale one can get MFA in Painting, but not one in Poetry. Some of the strong lit programs have not formed MFA in Creative Writing programs. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sun, Feb 28, 2010 8:54 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place Might get you an adjunct job, but not in CW. It's not considered a terminal degree. At 08:51 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: Does the straight MA in English carry an weight? Finnegan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100301/055f7629/attachment.html From junction Mon Mar 1 11:39:29 2010 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Mar 1 11:39:29 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: It's really the wrong question, and the parameters you suggest, Robin, are a little off. First those parameters. Most poets a generation ago weren't MFAs , and most of those who taught in that first generation also didn't have MFAs, but they were hardly a product of the system. Blackburn also taught creative writing during the last two years of his life, and Tom, as you note, has also done so, but they're very much of the older world. The question of quality inevitably involves taste, and it would be pointless to argue that. And it's not determinable, I think, even if we all agreed in our taste, that the percentage of garbage has climbed, tho I think the percentage of published garbage probably has, as there has been an explosion of outlets, not least the web. The problem, it seems to me, is that the programs tend to produce (at least they try to) competent poets, who read (within a given program, but more broadly across categories of programs) mostly the same things. Competence implies knowing and having a way of doing things. This becomes perpetuated in future hiring--one recognizes similar competence in the applicants. What seems to be happening already is a limited number of acceptable kinds of institutional poetry of limited aesthetic ambition written largely for an audience schooled to expect those limitations. Undoubtedly some very good poetry is produced within these limitations--it certainly can be--and undoubtedly there are some who successfully rebel against the norms. That audience is almost entirely university-based. It may be a larger audience than poetry has had in the past few decades, but it's an audience of limited perspective and relatively similar experience. Now maybe I'm completely wrong about this. Maybe the largest change in the culture of poetry since it separated itself from the clergy has had and will have no effect. Maybe, but I wouldn't put money on it. Anecdotes are of course merely anecdotal. Here's a couple, from a summer at Yaddo maybe 20 years ago. The younger cohort of poets that summer were mostly new-minted Iowa MFAs. The acknowledged star of the group was a southern poet who had written a historical verse novel. Quite an achievement, tho I doubt even his mother could love it. It was published and made his reputation, got him a job and some eminence. He hasn't, to the best of my knowledge, written another verse novel (why would anyone write a verse novel?), but he has produced consistently awful verse that's consistently praised by critice raised in the same educational environment. The other is more intimate. In my world poets share poems, and expect criticism from each other. One of the other Iowans and I decided to meet for coffee and show each other work. She showed me a dreadfully boring, competent poem. I suggested a few changes. "But it's already been published!" I was really shocked. What does that have to do with anything? If the poem needs helping one helps it. Then I showed her one of mine. At the time I was writing rhythmically-syncopated poetry that demanded occasional odd linebreaks and with lines of very dissimilar length. She was genuinely distressed. "But I was taught that all the lines should be the same length!" I hope she had been on a fellowship, otherwise she was cheated. Boy, do I long for the bohemia of not very long ago. Mark At 12:41 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: ><< >All this talk of the drabness produced by poets in workshops and MFA >programs is rather pointless unless the accusers are willing to name >names. Who exactly is producing this bad poetry? Or maybe more to >the point, whose students are producing this bad poetry? > >Al has sorta a point here, and I was almost tempted to go somewhere >and read some of the material. "Go forth and read some MFAers >poetry -- you *know it's good for you." > >But the problem is finding a black swan ... or wading through masses >of whatever. (Back to that *other prerenial debate on the Web and >poetry, that as with the Great MFA Debate, all too often generates >the usual glumly familiar partial answers.) > >But there's another way of approaching it. Of five poets whom you >read recently, which of them were affiliated with the MFA >system? Not just ones published who you're reading, but >generally. (But even that's couching the question with a built in >bias, as I'm sure no one is suggesting that absolutely all and every >poet in any way associated with an MFA course is worthless. By >sheer random chance, at the very least, some might be good. Or good >*despite the MFA system?) > >So the last five I've been reading: > > Patrick Macmanus > Simon Armitage > Paul Blackburn > nick-e melville > Tom Leonard > >Mind you, given that Tom *did teach on an MA in Creative Writing >course, maybe one of the five could be counted in. > >Or maybe the whole "name names" business is a misdirection. Maybe >not. I'd turn the question back to Al -- name one poet produced by >the MFA system who is worth reading? > >The problem here is partly sheer mediocrity, and like the poor, that >always has been and always will be with us. Just seems to be more >of it around than usual at the moment. > >Or maybe that's just my imagination ... > >Robin > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100301/ca52b7d1/attachment-0001.html From junction Mon Mar 1 11:45:12 2010 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Mar 1 11:45:12 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <1a40b.57a663ec.38bd5a52@aol.com> References: <1a40b.57a663ec.38bd5a52@aol.com> Message-ID: Justice didn't have an MFA. But it hardly matters. Taste counts, but nobody, regardless of taste, names off the top of his head only poets who disprove his point. At 12:58 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: >One? Well, taste is subjective, as we all know, but here are a few >just off the top of my head: > >David Wojahn >Lisa Lewis >Claudia Emerson >Beth Ann Fennelly >Bob Hicok >C.D. Wright >Charles Wright >Donald Justice >Philip Levine >Larry Levis >David St. John >Leslie Adrienne Miller >Frank X. Gaspar >Christopher Buckley (the California poet, not the bad novelist) >George Looney >Dean Young >Tony Hoagland > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100301/cb4e7b32/attachment.html From junction Mon Mar 1 11:51:13 2010 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Mar 1 11:51:13 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu> References: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: I don't know, but market forces would come into play. While more and more fiction is being published if at all by university or small presses, the prize remains the best seller list and publishers who can get a book on it. It's posible, still, for a few novelists to live by their writing. It's virtually impossible for poets. Mark Anecdotally: the older, non-MFA poets who earned their living when it became possible by teaching writing, those I know personally, at least, heaved a big sigh of relief when they retired and no longer had to do so. They always felt dishonest, because they didn't think poetry could be taught. Most were loved by their students, to whom they didn't express these opinions. At 01:21 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: >My 2 bits. Actually a question. > >Becoming a poet out of the academy predisposed me to look askance at >poetry produced in the academy. And even after I was teaching for >over 20 years I felt the same way, feeling (rightly or wrongly) that >the poets I liked were those who (though they may have been >professors) I felt were non-academic. Frankly, I still tend to still >feel that way after 28 years. (Although that may be beginning to change.) > >BUT when I started reading tons of contemporary fiction, I found >great writing coming out of creative writing programs. > >Are poets in creative writing programs more career oriented (writing >to one of several contemporary styles, networking, prize junkies, >etc.), compared to fiction writers, or is that my distorted perspective? > >-----Original Message----- >From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu >[mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Bircumshaw >Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 10:37 AM >To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place > >It's been interesting watching the river flow on this and related >topics here lately. There are certainly ominous signs of something >similar beginning in the UK and what seems to come across is that >"being a recognised poet" is subtly linked with a kind of >certificate of middleclassdom. >Even though its bearers would loudly deny the category. I can hardly >begin to describe the drabness of the poetry they are producing: it >makes me want to cry. There is a kind of army of the tin-eared and >tedious emerging from the swamp, particularly at locations familiar >to Robin such as De Montfort University. >And they want to own, to control everything. Any independent life >within the poetry scene is anathema to them, it disturbs their sense >of their own class status. I've been closely involved with a >workshop similar to the one Roger described for 19 years, yet I am >almost physically being forced out by such people. >One of the curiosities of the situation is that they seem to find >allies in the performance poetry scene - I don't know if that >happens in the US or whether it is that here matters are more purely >that of networks of class closing in the face of recession, because >the web of mediocrity gathers in the middle-class amateur poet >happily too, as long as they're amenable. >But it's no genteel suffocation: these characters play dirty - in >the first post after Christmas I had a letter informing me of my >'resignation' from a group I had been involved with, on my birthday >I had another letter making veiled threatd of a legal kind unless I >surrendered to them some software (which consisted of a copy of a >free disk given away by a pc magazine) which they considered their >'intellectual property'. >They are small, talentless, vindictive suburbanites, and are >probably setting up a poetry press right now near you anytime soon, as it were. > >David Bircumshaw > >Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk >Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com > > > >From: Mark Weiss >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" > >Sent: Mon, 1 March, 2010 2:33:12 >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place > >It's usually a battle within lit departments, unless creative >writing becomes its own departmewnt. Has a lot to do with who would >get to vote on budget and hires if there were suddenly a bunch of >creative writing profs with votes. In the cases I know of the dean >usually steps in and weighs in on the side of creative writing, >which is a real cash cow. > >All of this is usually clothed in questions of principle, and I'm >sure many of the oarticipants believe it, but it's finally about >money and power, and the prestige that brings money and power. > >Mark > >At 09:02 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: > >I was just thinking that at Yale one can get MFA in Painting, but >not one in Poetry. Some of the strong lit programs have not formed >MFA in Creative Writing programs. >Finnegan > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Mark Weiss >To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > >Sent: Sun, Feb 28, 2010 8:54 pm >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place > >Might get you an adjunct job, but not in CW. It's not considered a >terminal degree. > >At 08:51 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: > >Does the straight MA in English carry an weight? >Finnegan > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University >of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book >of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so >effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United >States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in >English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University >of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book >of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so >effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United >States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in >English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100301/1a249b5d/attachment.html From bobgrumman Mon Mar 1 12:26:39 2010 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Mar 1 12:26:39 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> Message-ID: <4B8C130A.7040409@nut-n-but.net> AlMaginnes at aol.com wrote: > All this talk of the drabness produced by poets in workshops and MFA > programs is rather pointless unless the accusers are willing to name > names. Who exactly is producing this bad poetry? Or maybe more to the > point, whose students are producing this bad poetry? Wouldn't it be easier to just say who is not producing it? Hadda get in, dint I. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100301/b44f92b1/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Mon Mar 1 13:20:37 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Mar 1 13:20:37 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com> I am terribly sorry to mess up your big sandcastle, but if you cannot teach poetry you cannot teach anything. I am with you: nobody can teach anything to anybody if the student is not willing to learn I am sure Confucius said something along the line. How can you teach music, art, poetry, tragedy, drama, comedy, how? One more question, didn't you say long ago that you were not going to say a word more on the topic? And to Robin: open up that link I sent over, and go through the many links and you will see what kind of people are involved in the many MFA programs. I would tremble if I were you all, to throw such words at hard-working scholars. And HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO ROBIN ! On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 7:39 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > I don't know, but market forces would come into play. While more and more > fiction is being published if at all by university or small presses, the > prize remains the best seller list and publishers who can get a book on it. > It's posible, still, for a few novelists to live by their writing. It's > virtually impossible for poets. > > Mark > > Anecdotally: the older, non-MFA poets who earned their living when it > became possible by teaching writing, those I know personally, at least, > heaved a big sigh of relief when they retired and no longer had to do so. > They always felt dishonest, because they didn't think poetry could be > taught. Most were loved by their students, to whom they didn't express these > opinions. > > > At 01:21 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: > > My 2 bits. Actually a question. > > Becoming a poet out of the academy predisposed me to look askance at poetry > produced in the academy. And even after I was teaching for over 20 years I > felt the same way, feeling (rightly or wrongly) that the poets I liked were > those who (though they may have been professors) I felt were non-academic. > Frankly, I still* tend* to still feel that way after 28 years. (Although > that may be beginning to change.) > > BUT when I started reading tons of contemporary fiction, I found great > writing coming out of creative writing programs. > > Are poets in creative writing programs more career oriented (writing to one > of several contemporary styles, networking, prize junkies, etc.), compared > to fiction writers, or is that my distorted perspective? > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] > *On Behalf Of *David Bircumshaw > *Sent:* Monday, March 01, 2010 10:37 AM > *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place > > It's been interesting watching the river flow on this and related topics > here lately. There are certainly ominous signs of something similar > beginning in the UK and what seems to come across is that "being a > recognised poet" is subtly linked with a kind of certificate of > middleclassdom. > Even though its bearers would loudly deny the category. I can hardly begin > to describe the drabness of the poetry they are producing: it makes me want > to cry. There is a kind of army of the tin-eared and tedious emerging from > the swamp, particularly at locations familiar to Robin such as De Montfort > University. > And they want to own, to control everything. Any independent life within > the poetry scene is anathema to them, it disturbs their sense of their own > class status. I've been closely involved with a workshop similar to the one > Roger described for 19 years, yet I am almost physically being forced out by > such people. > One of the curiosities of the situation is that they seem to find allies in > the performance poetry scene - I don't know if that happens in the US or > whether it is that here matters are more purely that of networks of class > closing in the face of recession, because the web of mediocrity gathers in > the middle-class amateur poet happily too, as long as they're amenable. > But it's no genteel suffocation: these characters play dirty - in the first > post after Christmas I had a letter informing me of my 'resignation' from a > group I had been involved with, on my birthday I had another letter making > veiled threatd of a legal kind unless I surrendered to them some software > (which consisted of a copy of a free disk given away by a pc magazine) which > they considered their 'intellectual property'. > They are small, talentless, vindictive suburbanites, and are probably > setting up a poetry press right now near you anytime soon, as it were. > > David Bircumshaw > > Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk > Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com > > > > *From:* Mark Weiss > *To:* "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > *Sent:* Mon, 1 March, 2010 2:33:12 > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place > > It's usually a battle within lit departments, unless creative writing > becomes its own departmewnt. Has a lot to do with who would get to vote on > budget and hires if there were suddenly a bunch of creative writing profs > with votes. In the cases I know of the dean usually steps in and weighs in > on the side of creative writing, which is a real cash cow. > > All of this is usually clothed in questions of principle, and I'm sure many > of the oarticipants believe it, but it's finally about money and power, and > the prestige that brings money and power. > > Mark > > At 09:02 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: > > I was just thinking that at Yale one can get MFA in Painting, but not one > in Poetry. Some of the strong lit programs have not formed MFA in Creative > Writing programs. > Finnegan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Weiss > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Sent: Sun, Feb 28, 2010 8:54 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place > > Might get you an adjunct job, but not in CW. It's not considered a terminal > degree. > > At 08:51 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: > > Does the straight MA in English carry an weight? > Finnegan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100301/6162ccbd/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Mon Mar 1 13:21:53 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Mar 1 13:21:53 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com> References: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu> <4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003011209u4889f306n5440837a58eb04a@mail.gmail.com> let me rephrase the Confucius line, please, I am sure Confucius said something similar along the line. Thank you for your patience. On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 9:08 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > I am terribly sorry to mess up your big sandcastle, but if you cannot teach > poetry you cannot teach anything. I am with you: > nobody can teach anything to anybody > > if the student is not willing to learn > I am sure Confucius said something along the line. > > How can you teach music, art, poetry, tragedy, drama, comedy, how? > One more question, didn't you say long ago that you were not going to say a > word more on the topic? > > And to Robin: > open up that link I sent over, and go through the many links and you will > see what kind of people are involved in the many MFA programs. I would > tremble if I were you all, to throw such words at hard-working scholars. > > And HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO ROBIN ! > > > > > On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 7:39 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> I don't know, but market forces would come into play. While more and more >> fiction is being published if at all by university or small presses, the >> prize remains the best seller list and publishers who can get a book on it. >> It's posible, still, for a few novelists to live by their writing. It's >> virtually impossible for poets. >> >> Mark >> >> Anecdotally: the older, non-MFA poets who earned their living when it >> became possible by teaching writing, those I know personally, at least, >> heaved a big sigh of relief when they retired and no longer had to do so. >> They always felt dishonest, because they didn't think poetry could be >> taught. Most were loved by their students, to whom they didn't express these >> opinions. >> >> >> At 01:21 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: >> >> My 2 bits. Actually a question. >> >> Becoming a poet out of the academy predisposed me to look askance at >> poetry produced in the academy. And even after I was teaching for over 20 >> years I felt the same way, feeling (rightly or wrongly) that the poets I >> liked were those who (though they may have been professors) I felt were >> non-academic. Frankly, I still* tend* to still feel that way after 28 >> years. (Although that may be beginning to change.) >> >> BUT when I started reading tons of contemporary fiction, I found great >> writing coming out of creative writing programs. >> >> Are poets in creative writing programs more career oriented (writing to >> one of several contemporary styles, networking, prize junkies, etc.), >> compared to fiction writers, or is that my distorted perspective? >> >> -----Original Message----- >> *From:* new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] >> *On Behalf Of *David Bircumshaw >> *Sent:* Monday, March 01, 2010 10:37 AM >> *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views >> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place >> >> It's been interesting watching the river flow on this and related topics >> here lately. There are certainly ominous signs of something similar >> beginning in the UK and what seems to come across is that "being a >> recognised poet" is subtly linked with a kind of certificate of >> middleclassdom. >> Even though its bearers would loudly deny the category. I can hardly begin >> to describe the drabness of the poetry they are producing: it makes me want >> to cry. There is a kind of army of the tin-eared and tedious emerging from >> the swamp, particularly at locations familiar to Robin such as De Montfort >> University. >> And they want to own, to control everything. Any independent life within >> the poetry scene is anathema to them, it disturbs their sense of their own >> class status. I've been closely involved with a workshop similar to the one >> Roger described for 19 years, yet I am almost physically being forced out by >> such people. >> One of the curiosities of the situation is that they seem to find allies >> in the performance poetry scene - I don't know if that happens in the US or >> whether it is that here matters are more purely that of networks of class >> closing in the face of recession, because the web of mediocrity gathers in >> the middle-class amateur poet happily too, as long as they're amenable. >> But it's no genteel suffocation: these characters play dirty - in the >> first post after Christmas I had a letter informing me of my 'resignation' >> from a group I had been involved with, on my birthday I had another letter >> making veiled threatd of a legal kind unless I surrendered to them some >> software (which consisted of a copy of a free disk given away by a pc >> magazine) which they considered their 'intellectual property'. >> They are small, talentless, vindictive suburbanites, and are probably >> setting up a poetry press right now near you anytime soon, as it were. >> >> David Bircumshaw >> >> Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk >> Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com >> >> >> >> *From:* Mark Weiss >> *To:* "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" < >> new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> >> *Sent:* Mon, 1 March, 2010 2:33:12 >> *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place >> >> It's usually a battle within lit departments, unless creative writing >> becomes its own departmewnt. Has a lot to do with who would get to vote on >> budget and hires if there were suddenly a bunch of creative writing profs >> with votes. In the cases I know of the dean usually steps in and weighs in >> on the side of creative writing, which is a real cash cow. >> >> All of this is usually clothed in questions of principle, and I'm sure >> many of the oarticipants believe it, but it's finally about money and power, >> and the prestige that brings money and power. >> >> Mark >> >> At 09:02 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: >> >> I was just thinking that at Yale one can get MFA in Painting, but not one >> in Poetry. Some of the strong lit programs have not formed MFA in Creative >> Writing programs. >> Finnegan >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Mark Weiss >> To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views < >> new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> >> Sent: Sun, Feb 28, 2010 8:54 pm >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place >> >> Might get you an adjunct job, but not in CW. It's not considered a >> terminal degree. >> >> At 08:51 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: >> >> Does the straight MA in English carry an weight? >> Finnegan >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of >> California Press). >> http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of >> Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively >> broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also >> created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing >> else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of >> California Press). >> http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of >> Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively >> broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also >> created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing >> else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of >> California Press). >> http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of >> Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively >> broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also >> created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing >> else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100301/d981ca44/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Mon Mar 1 13:29:49 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Mar 1 13:29:49 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] from Poetry Daily Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003011217y49eff568l28eb022fd4709df3@mail.gmail.com> 8. Poem From Last Year Dark Matter 1 Who am I to experience a burst of star formation? I know this? after the first rush of enthusiasm any idea recedes and dims. 2 Each one is the inverse shape of what's missing. 3 One might try summing the matter up in a single Judas kiss, all bitter-sweet complicity and feigned ignorance Rae Armantrout *Versed* Wesleyan University Press Copyright ? 2009 by Rae Armantrout All rights reserved. Reproduced by *Poetry Daily* with permission. -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100301/0569baf6/attachment.html From junction Mon Mar 1 13:29:58 2010 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Mar 1 13:29:58 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71003011209u4889f306n5440837a58eb04a@mail.gmail.com > References: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu> <4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71003011209u4889f306n5440837a58eb04a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Confucius: "All poets are liars." It aint my sandcastle. I'm reporting what others have told me. I think it unreasonable to expect poets not to talk about this, especially those who've lived through the change. It's the environment in which we work. Here's a way of thinking about that change: There's always been transportation, but it used to be horses, now it's cars. A different beast entirely. We still travel, but the world changed. Best, Mark At 03:09 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: >let me rephrase the Confucius line, please, > >I am sure Confucius said something similar along the line. >Thank you for your patience. > > > >On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 9:08 PM, Anny Ballardini ><anny.ballardini at gmail.com> wrote: >I am terribly sorry to mess up your big >sandcastle, but if you cannot teach poetry you >cannot teach anything. I am with you: >nobody can teach anything to anybody > >if the student is not willing to learn >I am sure Confucius said something along the line. > >How can you teach music, art, poetry, tragedy, drama, comedy, how? >One more question, didn't you say long ago that >you were not going to say a word more on the topic? > >And to Robin: >open up that link I sent over, and go through >the many links and you will see what kind of >people are involved in the many MFA programs. I >would tremble if I were you all, to throw such words at hard-working scholars. > >And HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO ROBIN ! > > > > >On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 7:39 PM, Mark Weiss ><junction at earthlink.net> wrote: >I don't know, but market forces would come into >play. While more and more fiction is being >published if at all by university or small >presses, the prize remains the best seller list >and publishers who can get a book on it. It's >posible, still, for a few novelists to live by >their writing. It's virtually impossible for poets. > >Mark > >Anecdotally: the older, non-MFA poets who earned >their living when it became possible by teaching >writing, those I know personally, at least, >heaved a big sigh of relief when they retired >and no longer had to do so. They always felt >dishonest, because they didn't think poetry >could be taught. Most were loved by their >students, to whom they didn't express these opinions. > > >At 01:21 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: >>My 2 bits. Actually a question. >> >>Becoming a poet out of the academy predisposed >>me to look askance at poetry produced in the >>academy. And even after I was teaching for over >>20 years I felt the same way, feeling (rightly >>or wrongly) that the poets I liked were those >>who (though they may have been professors) I >>felt were non-academic. Frankly, I still tend >>to still feel that way after 28 years. >>(Although that may be beginning to change.) >> >>BUT when I started reading tons of contemporary >>fiction, I found great writing coming out of creative writing programs. >> >>Are poets in creative writing programs more >>career oriented (writing to one of several >>contemporary styles, networking, prize junkies, >>etc.), compared to fiction writers, or is that my distorted perspective? >> >>-----Original Message----- >>From: >>new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>[ mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Bircumshaw >>Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 10:37 AM >>To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place >> >>It's been interesting watching the river flow >>on this and related topics here lately. There >>are certainly ominous signs of something >>similar beginning in the UK and what seems to >>come across is that "being a recognised poet" >>is subtly linked with a kind of certificate of middleclassdom. >>Even though its bearers would loudly deny the >>category. I can hardly begin to describe the >>drabness of the poetry they are producing: it >>makes me want to cry. There is a kind of army >>of the tin-eared and tedious emerging from the >>swamp, particularly at locations familiar to >>Robin such as De Montfort University. >>And they want to own, to control everything. >>Any independent life within the poetry scene is >>anathema to them, it disturbs their sense of >>their own class status. I've been closely >>involved with a workshop similar to the one >>Roger described for 19 years, yet I am almost >>physically being forced out by such people. >>One of the curiosities of the situation is that >>they seem to find allies in the performance >>poetry scene - I don't know if that happens in >>the US or whether it is that here matters are >>more purely that of networks of class closing >>in the face of recession, because the web of >>mediocrity gathers in the middle-class amateur >>poet happily too, as long as they're amenable. >>But it's no genteel suffocation: these >>characters play dirty - in the first post after >>Christmas I had a letter informing me of my >>'resignation' from a group I had been involved >>with, on my birthday I had another letter >>making veiled threatd of a legal kind unless I >>surrendered to them some software (which >>consisted of a copy of a free disk given away >>by a pc magazine) which they considered their 'intellectual property'. >>They are small, talentless, vindictive >>suburbanites, and are probably setting up a >>poetry press right now near you anytime soon, as it were. >> >>David Bircumshaw >> >>Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk >>Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com >> >> >From: Mark Weiss <junction at earthlink.net> >To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & >Views" <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> >Sent: Mon, 1 March, 2010 2:33:12 >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place > >It's usually a battle within lit departments, >unless creative writing becomes its own >departmewnt. Has a lot to do with who would get >to vote on budget and hires if there were >suddenly a bunch of creative writing profs with >votes. In the cases I know of the dean usually >steps in and weighs in on the side of creative >writing, which is a real cash cow. > >All of this is usually clothed in questions of >principle, and I'm sure many of the oarticipants >believe it, but it's finally about money and >power, and the prestige that brings money and power. > >Mark > >At 09:02 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: > >I was just thinking that at Yale one can get MFA >in Painting, but not one in Poetry. Some of the >strong lit programs have not formed MFA in Creative Writing programs. >Finnegan > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Mark Weiss <junction at earthlink.net> >To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News >&Views <new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> >Sent: Sun, Feb 28, 2010 8:54 pm >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place > >Might get you an adjunct job, but not in CW. >It's not considered a terminal degree. > >At 08:51 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: > >Does the straight MA in English carry an weight? >Finnegan > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of >Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's >Random House Book of Twentieth Century French >Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively >broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside >the United States and also created a superb >collection of foreign poems in English. There is >nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of >Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's >Random House Book of Twentieth Century French >Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively >broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside >the United States and also created a superb >collection of foreign poems in English. There is >nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of >Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's >Random House Book of Twentieth Century French >Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively >broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside >the United States and also created a superb >collection of foreign poems in English. There is >nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > >-- >Anny Ballardini >http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! >Friedrich Nietzsche > >? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >Giovenale > > > > >-- >Anny Ballardini >http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! >Friedrich Nietzsche > >? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >Giovenale > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100301/6a354314/attachment.html From halvard Mon Mar 1 14:07:17 2010 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Mar 1 14:07:17 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: There was a study some years back (back far enough that I can't cite an source for it) that found that of MFA graduates (don't remember if this was Iowa only or MFA programs in general) surveyed only around 20% of them were still producing writing 5 years after graduating from whatever program they were in. So it appeared that whatever career hopes they might have had were dashed sufficiently after 5 years to stop them in their tracks. Anyone remember this? Hal follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest collection -- http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > It's really the wrong question, and the parameters you suggest, Robin, are > a little off. First those parameters. Most poets a generation ago weren't > MFAs , and most of those who taught in that first generation also didn't > have MFAs, but they were hardly a product of the system. Blackburn also > taught creative writing during the last two years of his life, and Tom, as > you note, has also done so, but they're very much of the older world. > > The question of quality inevitably involves taste, and it would be > pointless to argue that. And it's not determinable, I think, even if we all > agreed in our taste, that the percentage of garbage has climbed, tho I think > the percentage of published garbage probably has, as there has been an > explosion of outlets, not least the web. The problem, it seems to me, is > that the programs tend to produce (at least they try to) competent poets, > who read (within a given program, but more broadly across categories of > programs) mostly the same things. Competence implies knowing and having a > way of doing things. This becomes perpetuated in future hiring--one > recognizes similar competence in the applicants. What seems to be happening > already is a limited number of acceptable kinds of institutional poetry of > limited aesthetic ambition written largely for an audience schooled to > expect those limitations. Undoubtedly some very good poetry is produced > within these limitations--it certainly can be--and undoubtedly there are > some who successfully rebel against the norms. That audience is almost > entirely university-based. It may be a larger audience than poetry has had > in the past few decades, but it's an audience of limited perspective and > relatively similar experience. > > Now maybe I'm completely wrong about this. Maybe the largest change in the > culture of poetry since it separated itself from the clergy has had and will > have no effect. Maybe, but I wouldn't put money on it. > > Anecdotes are of course merely anecdotal. Here's a couple, from a summer at > Yaddo maybe 20 years ago. The younger cohort of poets that summer were > mostly new-minted Iowa MFAs. The acknowledged star of the group was a > southern poet who had written a historical verse novel. Quite an > achievement, tho I doubt even his mother could love it. It was published and > made his reputation, got him a job and some eminence. He hasn't, to the best > of my knowledge, written another verse novel (why would anyone write a verse > novel?), but he has produced consistently awful verse that's consistently > praised by critice raised in the same educational environment. > > The other is more intimate. In my world poets share poems, and expect > criticism from each other. One of the other Iowans and I decided to meet for > coffee and show each other work. She showed me a dreadfully boring, > competent poem. I suggested a few changes. "But it's already been > published!" I was really shocked. What does that have to do with anything? > If the poem needs helping one helps it. Then I showed her one of mine. At > the time I was writing rhythmically-syncopated poetry that demanded > occasional odd linebreaks and with lines of very dissimilar length. She was > genuinely distressed. "But I was taught that all the lines should be the > same length!" I hope she had been on a fellowship, otherwise she was > cheated. > > Boy, do I long for the bohemia of not very long ago. > > Mark > > > At 12:41 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: > > << > All this talk of the drabness produced by poets in workshops and MFA > programs is rather pointless unless the accusers are willing to name names. > Who exactly is producing this bad poetry? Or maybe more to the point, whose > students are producing this bad poetry? > > > Al has sorta a point here, and I was almost tempted to go somewhere and > read some of the material. "Go forth and read some MFAers poetry -- you > *know it's good for you." > > But the problem is finding a black swan ... or wading through masses of > whatever. (Back to that *other prerenial debate on the Web and poetry, that > as with the Great MFA Debate, all too often generates the usual glumly > familiar partial answers.) > > But there's another way of approaching it. Of five poets whom you read > recently, which of them were affiliated with the MFA system? Not just ones > published who you're reading, but generally. (But even that's couching the > question with a built in bias, as I'm sure no one is suggesting that > absolutely all and every poet in any way associated with an MFA course is > worthless. By sheer random chance, at the very least, some might be good. > Or good *despite the MFA system?) > > So the last five I've been reading: > > Patrick Macmanus > Simon Armitage > Paul Blackburn > nick-e melville > Tom Leonard > > Mind you, given that Tom *did teach on an MA in Creative Writing course, > maybe one of the five could be counted in. > > Or maybe the whole "name names" business is a misdirection. Maybe not. > I'd turn the question back to Al -- name one poet produced by the MFA system > who is worth reading? > > The problem here is partly sheer mediocrity, and like the poor, that always > has been and always will be with us. Just seems to be more of it around > than usual at the moment. > > Or maybe that's just my imagination ... > > Robin > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100301/2f4fe66a/attachment-0001.html From millb Mon Mar 1 14:17:58 2010 From: millb (Millicent) Date: Mon Mar 1 14:17:58 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com><47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <8CC879A0EE113DA-95F8-1F19@webmail-m053.sysops.aol.com> I don't but I DO know that the figure sounds about right from my own experience. Maybe fewer than 20%. Millicent Woman on a Shaky Bridge Finishing Line Press http://finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm http://www.MillicentBorgesAccardi.com Facebook/MillB http://womporeadersdirectory.wikispaces.com/WEST http://www.MillicentBorgesAccardi.com Facebook/MillB http://womporeadersdirectory.wikispaces.com/WEST -----Original Message----- From: Halvard Johnson To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Mon, Mar 1, 2010 12:55 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place There was a study some years back (back far enough that I can't cite an source for it) that found that of MFA graduates (don't remember if this was Iowa only or MFA programs in general) surveyed only around 20% of them were still producing writing 5 years after graduating from whatever program they were in. So it appeared that whatever career hopes they might have had were dashed sufficiently after 5 years to stop them in their tracks. Anyone remember this? Hal follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest collection -- http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: It's really the wrong question, and the parameters you suggest, Robin, are a little off. First those parameters. Most poets a generation ago weren't MFAs , and most of those who taught in that first generation also didn't have MFAs, but they were hardly a product of the system. Blackburn also taught creative writing during the last two years of his life, and Tom, as you note, has also done so, but they're very much of the older world. The question of quality inevitably involves taste, and it would be pointless to argue that. And it's not determinable, I think, even if we all agreed in our taste, that the percentage of garbage has climbed, tho I think the percentage of published garbage probably has, as there has been an explosion of outlets, not least the web. The problem, it seems to me, is that the programs tend to produce (at least they try to) competent poets, who read (within a given program, but more broadly across categories of programs) mostly the same things. Competence implies knowing and having a way of doing things. This becomes perpetuated in future hiring--one recognizes similar competence in the applicants. What seems to be happening already is a limited number of acceptable kinds of institutional poetry of limited aesthetic ambition written largely for an audience schooled to expect those limitations. Undoubtedly some very good poetry is produced within these limitations--it certainly can be--and undoubtedly there are some who successfully rebel against the norms. That audience is almost entirely university-based. It may be a larger audience than poetry has had in the past few decades, but it's an audience of limited perspective and relatively similar experience. Now maybe I'm completely wrong about this. Maybe the largest change in the culture of poetry since it separated itself from the clergy has had and will have no effect. Maybe, but I wouldn't put money on it. Anecdotes are of course merely anecdotal. Here's a couple, from a summer at Yaddo maybe 20 years ago. The younger cohort of poets that summer were mostly new-minted Iowa MFAs. The acknowledged star of the group was a southern poet who had written a historical verse novel. Quite an achievement, tho I doubt even his mother could love it. It was published and made his reputation, got him a job and some eminence. He hasn't, to the best of my knowledge, written another verse novel (why would anyone write a verse novel?), but he has produced consistently awful verse that's consistently praised by critice raised in the same educational environment. The other is more intimate. In my world poets share poems, and expect criticism from each other. One of the other Iowans and I decided to meet for coffee and show each other work. She showed me a dreadfully boring, competent poem. I suggested a few changes. "But it's already been published!" I was really shocked. What does that have to do with anything? If the poem needs helping one helps it. Then I showed her one of mine. At the time I was writing rhythmically-syncopated poetry that demanded occasional odd linebreaks and with lines of very dissimilar length. She was genuinely distressed. "But I was taught that all the lines should be the same length!" I hope she had been on a fellowship, otherwise she was cheated. Boy, do I long for the bohemia of not very long ago. Mark At 12:41 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: << All this talk of the drabness produced by poets in workshops and MFA programs is rather pointless unless the accusers are willing to name names. Who exactly is producing this bad poetry? Or maybe more to the point, whose students are producing this bad poetry? Al has sorta a point here, and I was almost tempted to go somewhere and read some of the material. "Go forth and read some MFAers poetry -- you *know it's good for you." But the problem is finding a black swan ... or wading through masses of whatever. (Back to that *other prerenial debate on the Web and poetry, that as with the Great MFA Debate, all too often generates the usual glumly familiar partial answers.) But there's another way of approaching it. Of five poets whom you read recently, which of them were affiliated with the MFA system? Not just ones published who you're reading, but generally. (But even that's couching the question with a built in bias, as I'm sure no one is suggesting that absolutely all and every poet in any way associated with an MFA course is worthless. By sheer random chance, at the very least, some might be good. Or good *despite the MFA system?) So the last five I've been reading: Patrick Macmanus Simon Armitage Paul Blackburn nick-e melville Tom Leonard Mind you, given that Tom *did teach on an MA in Creative Writing course, maybe one of the five could be counted in. Or maybe the whole "name names" business is a misdirection. Maybe not. I'd turn the question back to Al -- name one poet produced by the MFA system who is worth reading? The problem here is partly sheer mediocrity, and like the poor, that always has been and always will be with us. Just seems to be more of it around than usual at the moment. Or maybe that's just my imagination ... Robin _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100301/1d89d9d6/attachment.html From cervantes.james Mon Mar 1 14:25:00 2010 From: cervantes.james (James Cervantes) Date: Mon Mar 1 14:25:00 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <8CC879A0EE113DA-95F8-1F19@webmail-m053.sysops.aol.com> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC879A0EE113DA-95F8-1F19@webmail-m053.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <648208b61003011312u110e33d0x45307cc024de870b@mail.gmail.com> Hmm, I remember the same thing as hazily as does Hal, but I wonder how one would even do such a study. For one, career-in-writing is not the same thing as continuing to write. - Jim On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Millicent wrote: > I don't but I DO know that the figure sounds about right from my own > experience. Maybe fewer than 20%. > > Millicent > > Woman on a Shaky Bridge > Finishing Line Press > http://finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm > > http://www.MillicentBorgesAccardi.com > Facebook/MillB > http://womporeadersdirectory.wikispaces.com/WEST > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Halvard Johnson > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Sent: Mon, Mar 1, 2010 12:55 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place > > There was a study some years back (back far enough that I can't cite > an source for it) that found that of MFA graduates (don't remember > if this was Iowa only or MFA programs in general) surveyed only > around 20% of them were still producing writing 5 years after > graduating from whatever program they were in. > > So it appeared that whatever career hopes they might have had were > dashed sufficiently after 5 years to stop them in their tracks. > > Anyone remember this? > > Hal > > follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest > collection -- > > http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> It's really the wrong question, and the parameters you suggest, Robin, are >> a little off. First those parameters. Most poets a generation ago weren't >> MFAs , and most of those who taught in that first generation also didn't >> have MFAs, but they were hardly a product of the system. Blackburn also >> taught creative writing during the last two years of his life, and Tom, as >> you note, has also done so, but they're very much of the older world. >> >> The question of quality inevitably involves taste, and it would be >> pointless to argue that. And it's not determinable, I think, even if we all >> agreed in our taste, that the percentage of garbage has climbed, tho I think >> the percentage of published garbage probably has, as there has been an >> explosion of outlets, not least the web. The problem, it seems to me, is >> that the programs tend to produce (at least they try to) competent poets, >> who read (within a given program, but more broadly across categories of >> programs) mostly the same things. Competence implies knowing and having a >> way of doing things. This becomes perpetuated in future hiring--one >> recognizes similar competence in the applicants. What seems to be happening >> already is a limited number of acceptable kinds of institutional poetry of >> limited aesthetic ambition written largely for an audience schooled to >> expect those limitations. Undoubtedly some very good poetry is produced >> within these limitations--it certainly can be--and undoubtedly there are >> some who successfully rebel against the norms. That audience is almost >> entirely university-based. It may be a larger audience than poetry has had >> in the past few decades, but it's an audience of limited perspective and >> relatively similar experience. >> >> Now maybe I'm completely wrong about this. Maybe the largest change in the >> culture of poetry since it separated itself from the clergy has had and will >> have no effect. Maybe, but I wouldn't put money on it. >> >> Anecdotes are of course merely anecdotal. Here's a couple, from a summer >> at Yaddo maybe 20 years ago. The younger cohort of poets that summer were >> mostly new-minted Iowa MFAs. The acknowledged star of the group was a >> southern poet who had written a historical verse novel. Quite an >> achievement, tho I doubt even his mother could love it. It was published and >> made his reputation, got him a job and some eminence. He hasn't, to the best >> of my knowledge, written another verse novel (why would anyone write a verse >> novel?), but he has produced consistently awful verse that's consistently >> praised by critice raised in the same educational environment. >> >> The other is more intimate. In my world poets share poems, and expect >> criticism from each other. One of the other Iowans and I decided to meet for >> coffee and show each other work. She showed me a dreadfully boring, >> competent poem. I suggested a few changes. "But it's already been >> published!" I was really shocked. What does that have to do with anything? >> If the poem needs helping one helps it. Then I showed her one of mine. At >> the time I was writing rhythmically-syncopated poetry that demanded >> occasional odd linebreaks and with lines of very dissimilar length. She was >> genuinely distressed. "But I was taught that all the lines should be the >> same length!" I hope she had been on a fellowship, otherwise she was >> cheated. >> >> Boy, do I long for the bohemia of not very long ago. >> >> Mark >> >> >> At 12:41 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: >> >> << >> All this talk of the drabness produced by poets in workshops and MFA >> programs is rather pointless unless the accusers are willing to name names. >> Who exactly is producing this bad poetry? Or maybe more to the point, whose >> students are producing this bad poetry? >> >> >> Al has sorta a point here, and I was almost tempted to go somewhere and >> read some of the material. "Go forth and read some MFAers poetry -- you >> *know it's good for you." >> >> But the problem is finding a black swan ... or wading through masses of >> whatever. (Back to that *other prerenial debate on the Web and poetry, that >> as with the Great MFA Debate, all too often generates the usual glumly >> familiar partial answers.) >> >> But there's another way of approaching it. Of five poets whom you read >> recently, which of them were affiliated with the MFA system? Not just ones >> published who you're reading, but generally. (But even that's couching the >> question with a built in bias, as I'm sure no one is suggesting that >> absolutely all and every poet in any way associated with an MFA course is >> worthless. By sheer random chance, at the very least, some might be good. >> Or good *despite the MFA system?) >> >> So the last five I've been reading: >> >> Patrick Macmanus >> Simon Armitage >> Paul Blackburn >> nick-e melville >> Tom Leonard >> >> Mind you, given that Tom *did teach on an MA in Creative Writing course, >> maybe one of the five could be counted in. >> >> Or maybe the whole "name names" business is a misdirection. Maybe not. >> I'd turn the question back to Al -- name one poet produced by the MFA system >> who is worth reading? >> >> The problem here is partly sheer mediocrity, and like the poor, that >> always has been and always will be with us. Just seems to be more of it >> around than usual at the moment. >> >> Or maybe that's just my imagination ... >> >> Robin >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University >> of California Press). >> http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of >> Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively >> broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also >> created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing >> else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100301/2df7da23/attachment.html From c.a.b.daly Mon Mar 1 14:35:36 2010 From: c.a.b.daly (Catherine Daly) Date: Mon Mar 1 14:35:36 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <8CC879A0EE113DA-95F8-1F19@webmail-m053.sysops.aol.com> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC879A0EE113DA-95F8-1F19@webmail-m053.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I got together for an informal "20 year" post MFA dinner. Everyone there -- and that we reported in on -- was still writing, but some had only just published a first book (took me 12 years, but some much longer) and some had changed genres/media, and some of the more commercial free lancers & journalists no longer pursued creative publication. So -- producing writing -- what does that mean? No one had had a full time tenure track teaching job, although several people who went through the same program after the faculty shakeup have such. -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com From junction Mon Mar 1 15:04:15 2010 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Mar 1 15:04:15 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: The key here is "stopped writing." Stopped looking for jobs, stopped publishing, would be a whole nuther ballgame. This one speaks to motivation. At 03:55 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: >There was a study some years back (back far enough that I can't cite >an source for it) that found that of MFA graduates (don't remember >if this was Iowa only or MFA programs in general) surveyed only >around 20% of them were still producing writing 5 years after >graduating from whatever program they were in. > >So it appeared that whatever career hopes they might have had were >dashed sufficiently after 5 years to stop them in their tracks. > >Anyone remember this? > >Hal > >follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest >collection -- > >http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions > >Halvard Johnson >================ >halvard at gmail.com >http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > >On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Mark Weiss ><junction at earthlink.net> wrote: >It's really the wrong question, and the parameters you suggest, >Robin, are a little off. First those parameters. Most poets a >generation ago weren't MFAs , and most of those who taught in that >first generation also didn't have MFAs, but they were hardly a >product of the system. Blackburn also taught creative writing during >the last two years of his life, and Tom, as you note, has also done >so, but they're very much of the older world. > >The question of quality inevitably involves taste, and it would be >pointless to argue that. And it's not determinable, I think, even if >we all agreed in our taste, that the percentage of garbage has >climbed, tho I think the percentage of published garbage probably >has, as there has been an explosion of outlets, not least the web. >The problem, it seems to me, is that the programs tend to produce >(at least they try to) competent poets, who read (within a given >program, but more broadly across categories of programs) mostly the >same things. Competence implies knowing and having a way of doing >things. This becomes perpetuated in future hiring--one recognizes >similar competence in the applicants. What seems to be happening >already is a limited number of acceptable kinds of institutional >poetry of limited aesthetic ambition written largely for an audience >schooled to expect those limitations. Undoubtedly some very good >poetry is produced within these limitations--it certainly can >be--and undoubtedly there are some who successfully rebel against >the norms. That audience is almost entirely university-based. It may >be a larger audience than poetry has had in the past few decades, >but it's an audience of limited perspective and relatively similar experience. > >Now maybe I'm completely wrong about this. Maybe the largest change >in the culture of poetry since it separated itself from the clergy >has had and will have no effect. Maybe, but I wouldn't put money on it. > >Anecdotes are of course merely anecdotal. Here's a couple, from a >summer at Yaddo maybe 20 years ago. The younger cohort of poets that >summer were mostly new-minted Iowa MFAs. The acknowledged star of >the group was a southern poet who had written a historical verse >novel. Quite an achievement, tho I doubt even his mother could love >it. It was published and made his reputation, got him a job and some >eminence. He hasn't, to the best of my knowledge, written another >verse novel (why would anyone write a verse novel?), but he has >produced consistently awful verse that's consistently praised by >critice raised in the same educational environment. > >The other is more intimate. In my world poets share poems, and >expect criticism from each other. One of the other Iowans and I >decided to meet for coffee and show each other work. She showed me a >dreadfully boring, competent poem. I suggested a few changes. "But >it's already been published!" I was really shocked. What does that >have to do with anything? If the poem needs helping one helps it. >Then I showed her one of mine. At the time I was writing >rhythmically-syncopated poetry that demanded occasional odd >linebreaks and with lines of very dissimilar length. She was >genuinely distressed. "But I was taught that all the lines should be >the same length!" I hope she had been on a fellowship, otherwise she >was cheated. > >Boy, do I long for the bohemia of not very long ago. > >Mark > > >At 12:41 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: >><< >>All this talk of the drabness produced by poets in workshops and >>MFA programs is rather pointless unless the accusers are willing to >>name names. Who exactly is producing this bad poetry? Or maybe more >>to the point, whose students are producing this bad poetry? >> >>Al has sorta a point here, and I was almost tempted to go somewhere >>and read some of the material. "Go forth and read some MFAers >>poetry -- you *know it's good for you." >> >>But the problem is finding a black swan ... or wading through >>masses of whatever. (Back to that *other prerenial debate on the >>Web and poetry, that as with the Great MFA Debate, all too often >>generates the usual glumly familiar partial answers.) >> >>But there's another way of approaching it. Of five poets whom you >>read recently, which of them were affiliated with the MFA >>system? Not just ones published who you're reading, but >>generally. (But even that's couching the question with a built in >>bias, as I'm sure no one is suggesting that absolutely all and >>every poet in any way associated with an MFA course is >>worthless. By sheer random chance, at the very least, some might >>be good. Or good *despite the MFA system?) >> >>So the last five I've been reading: >> >> Patrick Macmanus >> Simon Armitage >> Paul Blackburn >> nick-e melville >> Tom Leonard >> >>Mind you, given that Tom *did teach on an MA in Creative Writing >>course, maybe one of the five could be counted in. >> >>Or maybe the whole "name names" business is a misdirection. Maybe >>not. I'd turn the question back to Al -- name one poet produced by >>the MFA system who is worth reading? >> >>The problem here is partly sheer mediocrity, and like the poor, >>that always has been and always will be with us. Just seems to be >>more of it around than usual at the moment. >> >>Or maybe that's just my imagination ... >> >>Robin >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University >of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book >of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so >effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United >States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in >English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100301/9c940c99/attachment.html From bobgrumman Mon Mar 1 15:29:54 2010 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Mar 1 15:29:54 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com><47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> Interestingly, no poet I know of who is primarily a visual poet has--to my knowledge, an MFA. A few have Ph.D.'s but the only two I know of who do have them in library science. I think a lot of language poets have them. I also notice that every post to New-Poetry or elsewhere that I've seen that announces some position at a college for a teacher of any kind of creative writing requires an MFA, if not a Ph.D. --Bob From bobgrumman Mon Mar 1 15:39:40 2010 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Mar 1 15:39:40 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com><89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu><4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com><4b65c2d71003011209u4889f306n54408 37a58eb04a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B8C4046.1060907@nut-n-but.net> Mark Weiss wrote: > Confucius: "All poets are liars." > > It aint my sandcastle. I'm reporting what others have told me. > > I think it unreasonable to expect poets not to talk about this, > especially those who've lived through the change. It's the environment > in which we work. > > Here's a way of thinking about that change: There's always been > transportation, but it used to be horses, now it's cars. A different > beast entirely. We still travel, but the world changed. > > Best, > > Mark It does seem like more and more vocations are becoming trade gelded. Are there any left where a person is rewarded in proportion to his ability rather than in proportion to his credentials? --Bob From junction Mon Mar 1 15:46:46 2010 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Mar 1 15:46:46 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <648208b61003011312u110e33d0x45307cc024de870b@mail.gmail.co m> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC879A0EE113DA-95F8-1F19@webmail-m053.sysops.aol.com> <648208b61003011312u110e33d0x45307cc024de870b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: As I remember, they asked them. At 04:13 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: >Hmm, I remember the same thing as hazily as does Hal, but I wonder >how one would even do such a study. For one, career-in-writing is >not the same thing as continuing to write. > >- Jim > >On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 2:05 PM, Millicent ><millb at aol.com> wrote: >I don't but I DO know that the figure sounds about right from my own >experience. Maybe fewer than 20%. > >Millicent > >Woman on a Shaky Bridge >Finishing Line Press >http://finishinglinepress.com/NewReleasesandForthcomingTitles.htm > >http://www.MillicentBorgesAccardi.com >Facebook/MillB >http://womporeadersdirectory.wikispaces.com/WEST > > >-----Original Message----- >From: Halvard Johnson <halvard at gmail.com> >To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views ><new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> >Sent: Mon, Mar 1, 2010 12:55 pm >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place > >There was a study some years back (back far enough that I can't cite >an source for it) that found that of MFA graduates (don't remember >if this was Iowa only or MFA programs in general) surveyed only >around 20% of them were still producing writing 5 years after >graduating from whatever program they were in. > >So it appeared that whatever career hopes they might have had were >dashed sufficiently after 5 years to stop them in their tracks. > >Anyone remember this? > >Hal > >follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest >collection -- > >http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions > >Halvard Johnson >================ >halvard at gmail.com >http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > >On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Mark Weiss ><junction at earthlink.net> wrote: >It's really the wrong question, and the parameters you suggest, >Robin, are a little off. First those parameters. Most poets a >generation ago weren't MFAs , and most of those who taught in that >first generation also didn't have MFAs, but they were hardly a >product of the system. Blackburn also taught creative writing during >the last two years of his life, and Tom, as you note, has also done >so, but they're very much of the older world. > >The question of quality inevitably involves taste, and it would be >pointless to argue that. And it's not determinable, I think, even if >we all agreed in our taste, that the percentage of garbage has >climbed, tho I think the percentage of published garbage probably >has, as there has been an explosion of outlets, not least the web. >The problem, it seems to me, is that the programs tend to produce >(at least they try to) competent poets, who read (within a given >program, but more broadly across categories of programs) mostly the >same things. Competence implies knowing and having a way of doing >things. This becomes perpetuated in future hiring--one recognizes >similar competence in the applicants. What seems to be happening >already is a limited number of acceptable kinds of institutional >poetry of limited aesthetic ambition written largely for an audience >schooled to expect those limitations. Undoubtedly some very good >poetry is produced within these limitations--it certainly can >be--and undoubtedly there are some who successfully rebel against >the norms. That audience is almost entirely university-based. It may >be a larger audience than poetry has had in the past few decades, >but it's an audience of limited perspective and relatively similar experience. > >Now maybe I'm completely wrong about this. Maybe the largest change >in the culture of poetry since it separated itself from the clergy >has had and will have no effect. Maybe, but I wouldn't put money on it. > >Anecdotes are of course merely anecdotal. Here's a couple, from a >summer at Yaddo maybe 20 years ago. The younger cohort of poets that >summer were mostly new-minted Iowa MFAs. The acknowledged star of >the group was a southern poet who had written a historical verse >novel. Quite an achievement, tho I doubt even his mother could love >it. It was published and made his reputation, got him a job and some >eminence. He hasn't, to the best of my knowledge, written another >verse novel (why would anyone write a verse novel?), but he has >produced consistently awful verse that's consistently praised by >critice raised in the same educational environment. > >The other is more intimate. In my world poets share poems, and >expect criticism from each other. One of the other Iowans and I >decided to meet for coffee and show each other work. She showed me a >dreadfully boring, competent poem. I suggested a few changes. "But >it's already been published!" I was really shocked. What does that >have to do with anything? If the poem needs helping one helps it. >Then I showed her one of mine. At the time I was writing >rhythmically-syncopated poetry that demanded occasional odd >linebreaks and with lines of very dissimilar length. She was >genuinely distressed. "But I was taught that all the lines should be >the same length!" I hope she had been on a fellowship, otherwise she >was cheated. > >Boy, do I long for the bohemia of not very long ago. > >Mark > > >At 12:41 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: >><< >>All this talk of the drabness produced by poets in workshops and >>MFA programs is rather pointless unless the accusers are willing to >>name names. Who exactly is producing this bad poetry? Or maybe more >>to the point, whose students are producing this bad poetry? >> >>Al has sorta a point here, and I was almost tempted to go somewhere >>and read some of the material. "Go forth and read some MFAers >>poetry -- you *know it's good for you." >> >>But the problem is finding a black swan ... or wading through >>masses of whatever. (Back to that *other prerenial debate on the >>Web and poetry, that as with the Great MFA Debate, all too often >>generates the usual glumly familiar partial answers.) >> >>But there's another way of approaching it. Of five poets whom you >>read recently, which of them were affiliated with the MFA >>system? Not just ones published who you're reading, but >>generally. (But even that's couching the question with a built in >>bias, as I'm sure no one is suggesting that absolutely all and >>every poet in any way associated with an MFA course is >>worthless. By sheer random chance, at the very least, some might >>be good. Or good *despite the MFA system?) >> >>So the last five I've been reading: >> >> Patrick Macmanus >> Simon Armitage >> Paul Blackburn >> nick-e melville >> Tom Leonard >> >>Mind you, given that Tom *did teach on an MA in Creative Writing >>course, maybe one of the five could be counted in. >> >>Or maybe the whole "name names" business is a misdirection. Maybe >>not. I'd turn the question back to Al -- name one poet produced by >>the MFA system who is worth reading? >> >>The problem here is partly sheer mediocrity, and like the poor, >>that always has been and always will be with us. Just seems to be >>more of it around than usual at the moment. >> >>Or maybe that's just my imagination ... >> >>Robin >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University >of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book >of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so >effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United >States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in >English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > >-- > >~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >Salt River Review: http://www.poetserv.org >http://www.hamiltonstone.org/catalog.html#temporarymeaning >http://www.fieralingue.it/documenti/mr_bondo.pdf >http://www.poetserv.org/jvc/home/index.html >http://www.flickr.com/photos/jamescervantes/ >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100301/222a3862/attachment-0001.html From robin.hamilton2 Mon Mar 1 15:49:08 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon Mar 1 15:49:08 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com> References: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com><89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu> <4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <71A9B8920EF140D78E0EA96B01F79981@RobinLaptopPC> << And to Robin: open up that link I sent over, and go through the many links and you will see what kind of people are involved in the many MFA programs. I would tremble if I were you all, to throw such words at hard-working scholars. >> The problem with this point of Anny's, and Al's earlier list of names, is that it quite misses my point. Frankly, if all I wanted was an unsorted list of names or links, I'd go to Silliman's blog -- there are more there of both. What bothers me less than that I asked for five [sic] names of poets who'd been read recently and got in reply a *series of names and links, is that this exactly illustrates what is at issue on another thread -- there are lots and lots and *lots of poets out there, more than anyone can read even if on sabbatical and doing nothing else. What further bothers me is that this is recognised as a phenomenon, whether with approval or despair, but everybody seems to think it's either simply more of the same old same old -- "There have always been more bad poets than good, and the problem has always been finding the good ones" -- or cuts off the past -- "With the Web, things are Totally Different". Both statements seem to me inadequate, and further, both seem in an odd way, especially in the absences around solutions, to ignore other Web Places. There's a problem with regard to poetry at the moment with regard to distribution, information retrieval, and judgement of worth (value, appropriateness, whatever), and there are already existing models which, however inadequately, address this. Specifically, with respect to distribution, Amazon, with respect to information retrieval, google, and with respect to judgement, Wiki. For better or worse, these things work, and are *still developing. I don't know what the answer to the present situation will be, but I'm pretty certain that some sort of impact from these three models will impact on "the poetry scene". And as I'm ever hopeful, for better rather than for worse. << And HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO ROBIN ! >> Thanks Anny -- I'm currently feeling *really old, especially when I remember that I was working with computer programming as a way of generating poetry, and the use of programming languages in poetry, as early as the late sixties. Jeez, it's not that I remember forty years of change, from when computers were ladies dressed in valves, and one, memorably (at least for me) tried to kill me, but that I actually lived through it all. A funny feeling, being there when a world comes into existence, and then to watch it grow. And it may give me an odd perspective on this whole business. Robin +++++++++++++++++++ On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 7:39 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: I don't know, but market forces would come into play. While more and more fiction is being published if at all by university or small presses, the prize remains the best seller list and publishers who can get a book on it. It's posible, still, for a few novelists to live by their writing. It's virtually impossible for poets. Mark Anecdotally: the older, non-MFA poets who earned their living when it became possible by teaching writing, those I know personally, at least, heaved a big sigh of relief when they retired and no longer had to do so. They always felt dishonest, because they didn't think poetry could be taught. Most were loved by their students, to whom they didn't express these opinions. At 01:21 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: My 2 bits. Actually a question. Becoming a poet out of the academy predisposed me to look askance at poetry produced in the academy. And even after I was teaching for over 20 years I felt the same way, feeling (rightly or wrongly) that the poets I liked were those who (though they may have been professors) I felt were non-academic. Frankly, I still tend to still feel that way after 28 years. (Although that may be beginning to change.) BUT when I started reading tons of contemporary fiction, I found great writing coming out of creative writing programs. Are poets in creative writing programs more career oriented (writing to one of several contemporary styles, networking, prize junkies, etc.), compared to fiction writers, or is that my distorted perspective? -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [ mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Bircumshaw Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 10:37 AM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place It's been interesting watching the river flow on this and related topics here lately. There are certainly ominous signs of something similar beginning in the UK and what seems to come across is that "being a recognised poet" is subtly linked with a kind of certificate of middleclassdom. Even though its bearers would loudly deny the category. I can hardly begin to describe the drabness of the poetry they are producing: it makes me want to cry. There is a kind of army of the tin-eared and tedious emerging from the swamp, particularly at locations familiar to Robin such as De Montfort University. And they want to own, to control everything. Any independent life within the poetry scene is anathema to them, it disturbs their sense of their own class status. I've been closely involved with a workshop similar to the one Roger described for 19 years, yet I am almost physically being forced out by such people. One of the curiosities of the situation is that they seem to find allies in the performance poetry scene - I don't know if that happens in the US or whether it is that here matters are more purely that of networks of class closing in the face of recession, because the web of mediocrity gathers in the middle-class amateur poet happily too, as long as they're amenable. But it's no genteel suffocation: these characters play dirty - in the first post after Christmas I had a letter informing me of my 'resignation' from a group I had been involved with, on my birthday I had another letter making veiled threatd of a legal kind unless I surrendered to them some software (which consisted of a copy of a free disk given away by a pc magazine) which they considered their 'intellectual property'. They are small, talentless, vindictive suburbanites, and are probably setting up a poetry press right now near you anytime soon, as it were. David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com From: Mark Weiss To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Mon, 1 March, 2010 2:33:12 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place It's usually a battle within lit departments, unless creative writing becomes its own departmewnt. Has a lot to do with who would get to vote on budget and hires if there were suddenly a bunch of creative writing profs with votes. In the cases I know of the dean usually steps in and weighs in on the side of creative writing, which is a real cash cow. All of this is usually clothed in questions of principle, and I'm sure many of the oarticipants believe it, but it's finally about money and power, and the prestige that brings money and power. Mark At 09:02 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: I was just thinking that at Yale one can get MFA in Painting, but not one in Poetry. Some of the strong lit programs have not formed MFA in Creative Writing programs. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sun, Feb 28, 2010 8:54 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place Might get you an adjunct job, but not in CW. It's not considered a terminal degree. At 08:51 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: Does the straight MA in English carry an weight? Finnegan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From junction Mon Mar 1 15:53:43 2010 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Mar 1 15:53:43 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <4B8C4046.1060907@nut-n-but.net> References: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu> <4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71003011209u4889f306n54408 37a58eb04a@mail.gmail.com> <4B8C4046.1060907@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: Depends what you mean by vocation, reward and credentials. Remember, we're talking about a profession (teaching creative writing, as opposed to making poems, is a vocation for very few who do it, tho I must say when I've done it it's always been a lot of fun. But so was teaching social work and history of religion) that no one thought was needed until very recently. When asked if he'd like to teach in an MFA program Milton said "I'd rather go blind." To which Homer responded, "Be careful what you wish for." Best, Mark, laughing among the ruins At 05:31 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: >Mark Weiss wrote: >>Confucius: "All poets are liars." >> >>It aint my sandcastle. I'm reporting what others have told me. >> >>I think it unreasonable to expect poets not to talk about this, >>especially those who've lived through the change. It's the >>environment in which we work. >> >>Here's a way of thinking about that change: There's always been >>transportation, but it used to be horses, now it's cars. A >>different beast entirely. We still travel, but the world changed. >> >>Best, >> >>Mark >It does seem like more and more vocations are becoming trade gelded. >Are there any left where a person is rewarded in proportion to his >ability rather than in proportion to his credentials? > >--Bob > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100301/a2c50413/attachment.html From robin.hamilton2 Mon Mar 1 15:54:15 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon Mar 1 15:54:15 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com><47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: > Interestingly, no poet I know of who is primarily a visual poet has--to my > knowledge, an MFA. A few have Ph.D.'s but the only two I know of who do > have them in library science. I think a lot of language poets have them. > ... > --Bob This has been discussed a bit by Chris Jones on the poetryetc list, with regard to the new media arts courses. You might like to check it out in the poetryetc archives. Backchannel me if you want pointers to the threads to follow there. Best, Robin From bobgrumman Mon Mar 1 16:01:32 2010 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Mar 1 16:01:32 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <71A9B8920EF140D78E0EA96B01F79981@RobinLaptopPC> References: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com><89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu> <4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com> <71A9B8920EF140D78E0EA96B01F79981@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4B8C4566.8000803@nut-n-but.net> The first step to any solution is a list of schools of poetry. I know, Jeff, I keep saying this, but I haven't bothered to for a long time since I know the idea threatens most poets. Gotta do it at least once every few years, though. --Bob From robin.hamilton2 Mon Mar 1 16:01:57 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon Mar 1 16:01:57 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <4B8C4046.1060907@nut-n-but.net> References: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com><89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu><4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com><4b65c2d71003011209u4889f306n5440837a58eb04a@mail.gmail.com> <4B8C4046.1060907@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <422CC03B10EC40E89D8EA44A32CB0127@RobinLaptopPC> > It does seem like more and more vocations are becoming trade gelded. Are > there any left where a person is rewarded in proportion to his ability > rather than in proportion to his credentials? > > --Bob Actually, I can think of one place where something like this might be happening -- ADS-l. (American Dialect Scholars list). There, while there is a kind of status at play, and despite the heavy clout that lots of members of the list carry, authority on the list seems to correlate much more to the status and authority of the person's blog. Weird. Authority conferred by your peers because what you do rather than where you teach or what you publish. An unlikely place to see green shoots of possibility spouting, I agree. Oh, and they also, much more than any comparable academic list I've encountered, use and contribute to Wiki, and assume that if you want to find something, you google. (And are fully aware of the possiblities and limitations of both.) Just a thot. Robin From almaginnes Mon Mar 1 16:21:06 2010 From: almaginnes (almaginnes@aol.com) Date: Mon Mar 1 16:21:06 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <71A9B8920EF140D78E0EA96B01F79981@RobinLaptopPC> References: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com><89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu><4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com> <71A9B8920EF140D78E0EA96B01F79981@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <8CC87AB45927E24-1624-4FFD@webmail-d097.sysops.aol.com> I'm not sure what your issue is, Robin.. You asked if any poet who had an MFA was worth erading, and I listed a few that I'd read with some pleasure recently. If you think there are problems with the MFA culture, you're probably right. It's been over twenty years since I was invovled in an MFA program. If you are asserting, as you seem to be, that no poet with an MFA is worth reading, well, that's just stupid. -----Original Message----- From: Robin Hamilton To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Mon, Mar 1, 2010 5:36 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place << And to Robin: open up that link I sent over, and go through the many links and you will see what kind of people are involved in the many MFA programs. I would tremble if I were you all, to throw such words at hard-working scholars. >> The problem with this point of Anny's, and Al's earlier list of names, is that it quite misses my point. Frankly, if all I wanted was an unsorted list of names or links, I'd go to Silliman's blog -- there are more there of both. What bothers me less than that I asked for five [sic] names of poets who'd been read recently and got in reply a *series of names and links, is that this exactly illustrates what is at issue on another thread -- there are lots and lots and *lots of poets out there, more than anyone can read even if on sabbatical and doing nothing else. What further bothers me is that this is recognised as a phenomenon, whether with approval or despair, but everybody seems to think it's either simply more of the same old same old -- "There have always been more bad poets than good, and the problem has always been finding the good ones" -- or cuts off the past -- "With the Web, things are Totally Different". Both statements seem to me inadequate, and further, both seem in an odd way, especially in the absences around solutions, to ignore other Web Places. There's a problem with regard to poetry at the moment with regard to distribution, information retrieval, and judgement of worth (value, appropriateness, whatever), and there are already existing models which, however inadequately, address this. Specifically, with respect to distribution, Amazon, with respect to information retrieval, google, and with respect to judgement, Wiki. For better or worse, these things work, and are *still developing. I don't know what the answer to the present situation will be, but I'm pretty certain that some sort of impact from these three models will impact on "the poetry scene". And as I'm ever hopeful, for better rather than for worse. << And HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO ROBIN ! >> Thanks Anny -- I'm currently feeling *really old, especially when I remember that I was working with computer programming as a way of generating poetry, and the use of programming languages in poetry, as early as the late sixties. Jeez, it's not that I remember forty years of change, from when computers were ladies dressed in valves, and one, memorably (at least for me) tried to kill me, but that I actually lived through it all. A funny feeling, being there when a world comes into existence, and then to watch it grow. And it may give me an odd perspective on this whole business. Robin +++++++++++++++++++ On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 7:39 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: I don't know, but market forces would come into play. While more and more fiction is being published if at all by university or small presses, the prize remains the best seller list and publishers who can get a book on it. It's posible, still, for a few novelists to live by their writing. It's virtually impossible for poets. Mark Anecdotally: the older, non-MFA poets who earned their living when it became possible by teaching writing, those I know personally, at least, heaved a big sigh of relief when they retired and no longer had to do so. They always felt dishonest, because they didn't think poetry could be taught. Most were loved by their students, to whom they didn't express these opinions. At 01:21 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: My 2 bits. Actually a question. Becoming a poet out of the academy predisposed me to look askance at poetry produced in the academy. And even after I was teaching for over 20 years I felt the same way, feeling (rightly or wrongly) that the poets I liked were those who (though they may have been professors) I felt were non-academic. Frankly, I still tend to still feel that way after 28 years. (Although that may be beginning to change.) BUT when I started reading tons of contemporary fiction, I found great writing coming out of creative writing programs. Are poets in creative writing programs more career oriented (writing to one of several contemporary styles, networking, prize junkies, etc.), compared to fiction writers, or is that my distorted perspective? -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [ mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Bircumshaw Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 10:37 AM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place It's been interesting watching the river flow on this and related topics here lately. There are certainly ominous signs of something similar beginning in the UK and what seems to come across is that "being a recognised poet" is subtly linked with a kind of certificate of middleclassdom. Even though its bearers would loudly deny the category. I can hardly begin to describe the drabness of the poetry they are producing: it makes me want to cry. There is a kind of army of the tin-eared and tedious emerging from the swamp, particularly at locations familiar to Robin such as De Montfort University. And they want to own, to control everything. Any independent life within the poetry scene is anathema to them, it disturbs their sense of their own class status. I've been closely involved with a workshop similar to the one Roger described for 19 years, yet I am almost physically being forced out by such people. One of the curiosities of the situation is that they seem to find allies in the performance poetry scene - I don't know if that happens in the US or whether it is that here matters are more purely that of networks of class closing in the face of recession, because the web of mediocrity gathers in the middle-class amateur poet happily too, as long as they're amenable. But it's no genteel suffocation: these characters play dirty - in the first post after Christmas I had a letter informing me of my 'resignation' from a group I had been involved with, on my birthday I had another letter making veiled threatd of a legal kind unless I surrendered to them some software (which consisted of a copy of a free disk given away by a pc magazine) which they considered their 'intellectual property'. They are small, talentless, vindictive suburbanites, and are probably setting up a poetry press right now near you anytime soon, as it were. David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com From: Mark Weiss To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Mon, 1 March, 2010 2:33:12 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place It's usually a battle within lit departments, unless creative writing becomes its own departmewnt. Has a lot to do with who would get to vote on budget and hires if there were suddenly a bunch of creative writing profs with votes. In the cases I know of the dean usually steps in and weighs in on the side of creative writing, which is a real cash cow. All of this is usually clothed in questions of principle, and I'm sure many of the oarticipants believe it, but it's finally about money and power, and the prestige that brings money and power. Mark At 09:02 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: I was just thinking that at Yale one can get MFA in Painting, but not one in Poetry. Some of the strong lit programs have not formed MFA in Creative Writing programs. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sun, Feb 28, 2010 8:54 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place Might get you an adjunct job, but not in CW. It's not considered a terminal degree. At 08:51 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: Does the straight MA in English carry an weight? Finnegan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100301/321cc994/attachment.html From halvard Mon Mar 1 16:22:25 2010 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Mar 1 16:22:25 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <422CC03B10EC40E89D8EA44A32CB0127@RobinLaptopPC> References: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu> <4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71003011209u4889f306n5440837a58eb04a@mail.gmail.com> <4B8C4046.1060907@nut-n-but.net> <422CC03B10EC40E89D8EA44A32CB0127@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: Another thot: I've never seen a library or bookstore that didn't have more than I could read, or would want to. I've never thought of that as a problem, however. But, hey, that's just me. And my guess is that even Ron Silliman doesn't read all the people and links he provides. I don't even read all of most books I read. Some exceptions though, including the one linked below. Hal follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest collection -- http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 4:49 PM, Robin Hamilton < robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote: > It does seem like more and more vocations are becoming trade gelded. Are >> there any left where a person is rewarded in proportion to his ability >> rather than in proportion to his credentials? >> >> --Bob >> > > Actually, I can think of one place where something like this might be > happening -- ADS-l. (American Dialect Scholars list). > > There, while there is a kind of status at play, and despite the heavy clout > that lots of members of the list carry, authority on the list seems to > correlate much more to the status and authority of the person's blog. > > Weird. Authority conferred by your peers because what you do rather than > where you teach or what you publish. An unlikely place to see green shoots > of possibility spouting, I agree. Oh, and they also, much more than any > comparable academic list I've encountered, use and contribute to Wiki, and > assume that if you want to find something, you google. (And are fully aware > of the possiblities and limitations of both.) > > Just a thot. > > Robin > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100301/a49d8e03/attachment.html From robin.hamilton2 Mon Mar 1 16:37:06 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Mon Mar 1 16:37:06 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <8CC87AB45927E24-1624-4FFD@webmail-d097.sysops.aol.com> References: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com><89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu><4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com><71A9B8920EF140D78E0EA96B01F79981@RobinLaptopPC> <8CC87AB45927E24-1624-4FFD@webmail-d097.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <3A96A2DB955A4E08A60E76E4A3509AE9@RobinLaptopPC> If you are asserting, as you seem to be, that no poet with an MFA is worth reading, well, that's just stupid. I'd entirely agree, if I *had said anything like that, Al. As it was, I think at one point I actually went out of my way to point out that that *wasn't what I was saying. I have concerns about the nature of the institutionalisation of poetry, share with Mark a sense that one of the consequences of the MFA is to produce inferior art, am concerned with how to address the problem of information on the internet ... I could go on, but as apparently many people seems to be unconcerned with what I'm actually saying, as opposed to what they think I'm saying, and as none of the answers I've been given have in any way addressed my concerns (though much of the incidental specific information has been fascinating), other than what I knew already, that there are Lots of Poets Out There Worth Reading (which I have to say doesn't surprise me) and Their Particular List (as opposed to the three hundred or so only partially overlapping lists by others) are Specially Worth Reading ... When I ask for five names, and am given a list of thirty, then I know there's a communications disconnect. So enough. The rest is silen -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100301/cf2b9771/attachment.html From jbalizsprince Mon Mar 1 16:42:35 2010 From: jbalizsprince (Judy Prince) Date: Mon Mar 1 16:42:35 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu> <4b65c2d71002281133ue494a5au214bda26599ca09f@mail.gmail.com> <8CC86E79962E54D-47DC-1EF93@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <8CC86F8DE4DCF70-47DC-20A94@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <8CC86FA6F5A410B-47DC-20CDD@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b1003011530i14333914mabd14c744fd2b3ad@mail.gmail.com> "tin eared and tedious"---this is a diatribe that's fun to read, Dave. I hear your main point about classness and "feel" it but don't entirely agree with it. I believe it's something even deeper than classness that separates the smooth poets from the KNOCKOUT poets [such as you, as I keep insisting]. It's roughness, bumptiousness, a Different View of everything, a refusal to accept norms, forms, standards and received wisdoms. These are the KNOCKOUT poet's *personal* qualities, the poems which're any damned thing the poet wants them to be, but they will have *it*----the DIFFERENCE----and that DIFFERENCE is instantly recognisable within a couple lines. MFA, SchmemFA, I dunno for true what's what, though I support any benign encouraging of incipient poets to read lotsa poetry and write lotsa poetry. The KNOCKOUT folk will out, and usually will take a coupla other KNOCKOUTS with them, each odd-mentoring each, like KNOCKOUT-seeking missiles. Best, Judy On 1 March 2010 11:36, David Bircumshaw wrote: > It's been interesting watching the river flow on this and related topics > here lately. There are certainly ominous signs of something similar > beginning in the UK and what seems to come across is that "being a > recognised poet" is subtly linked with a kind of certificate of > middleclassdom. > Even though its bearers would loudly deny the category. I can hardly begin > to describe the drabness of the poetry they are producing: it makes me want > to cry. There is a kind of army of the tin-eared and tedious emerging from > the swamp, particularly at locations familiar to Robin such as De Montfort > University. > And they want to own, to control everything. Any independent life within > the poetry scene is anathema to them, it disturbs their sense of their own > class status. I've been closely involved with a workshop similar to the one > Roger described for 19 years, yet I am almost physically being forced out by > such people. > One of the curiosities of the situation is that they seem to find allies in > the performance poetry scene - I don't know if that happens in the US or > whether it is that here matters are more purely that of networks of class > closing in the face of recession, because the web of mediocrity gathers in > the middle-class amateur poet happily too, as long as they're amenable. > But it's no genteel suffocation: these characters play dirty - in the first > post after Christmas I had a letter informing me of my 'resignation' from a > group I had been involved with, on my birthday I had another letter making > veiled threatd of a legal kind unless I surrendered to them some software > (which consisted of a copy of a free disk given away by a pc magazine) which > they considered their 'intellectual property'. > They are small, talentless, vindictive suburbanites, and are probably > setting up a poetry press right now near you anytime soon, as it were. > > David Bircumshaw > > > Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk > Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Mark Weiss > *To:* "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > *Sent:* Mon, 1 March, 2010 2:33:12 > > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place > > It's usually a battle within lit departments, unless creative writing > becomes its own departmewnt. Has a lot to do with who would get to vote on > budget and hires if there were suddenly a bunch of creative writing profs > with votes. In the cases I know of the dean usually steps in and weighs in > on the side of creative writing, which is a real cash cow. > > All of this is usually clothed in questions of principle, and I'm sure many > of the oarticipants believe it, but it's finally about money and power, and > the prestige that brings money and power. > > Mark > > At 09:02 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: > > I was just thinking that at Yale one can get MFA in Painting, but not one > in Poetry. Some of the strong lit programs have not formed MFA in Creative > Writing programs. > Finnegan > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Mark Weiss > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Sent: Sun, Feb 28, 2010 8:54 pm > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place > > Might get you an adjunct job, but not in CW. It's not considered a terminal > degree. > > At 08:51 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: > > Does the straight MA in English carry an weight? > Finnegan > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100301/8fdcf4e7/attachment.html From millb Mon Mar 1 16:47:08 2010 From: millb (Millicent) Date: Mon Mar 1 16:47:08 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Reviewers wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CC87AEED8844DD-5F64-4045@webmail-d037.sysops.aol.com> Announcement: For those of you who read my poetry book, Woman on a Shaky Bridge, I sure would appreciate a review or a few lines posted on Amazon. For those interested in more formally reviewing my book (if you regularly review books for a publication or an online site, please let me know), I have a couple review copies left, or I could send you a soft-copy). Thanks in advance, Millicent http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1599245523/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller= -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100301/4be4d8b8/attachment.html From jforjames Mon Mar 1 19:27:25 2010 From: jforjames (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Mar 1 19:27:25 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com><89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu><4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com><4b65c2d71003011209u4889f306n5440837a58eb04a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CC87C5544458D7-73E8-3EF8@webmail-m045.sysops.aol.com> From: Mark Weiss Confucius: "All poets are liars." - I thought that was Plato. But maybe they crossed minds. Or were they prescient and speaking for the post -modernists who dislike the 'authentic voice' and don't believe a poem can be vessel of the truth?. Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100301/fedbd5c7/attachment-0001.html From junction Mon Mar 1 19:28:53 2010 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Mon Mar 1 19:28:53 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <8CC87C5544458D7-73E8-3EF8@webmail-m045.sysops.aol.com> References: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu> <4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71003011209u4889f306n5440837a58eb04a@mail.gmail.com> <8CC87C5544458D7-73E8-3EF8@webmail-m045.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Everybody seems to be in agreement about poets. At 09:15 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: >From: Mark Weiss >Confucius: "All poets are liars." > >- >I thought that was Plato. But maybe they crossed minds. > >Or were they prescient and speaking for the post -modernists who >dislike the 'authentic voice' and don't believe a poem can be vessel >of the truth?. >Finnegan >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100301/1005bd26/attachment.html From Opus40-01 Mon Mar 1 20:46:38 2010 From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Mar 1 20:46:38 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4B8C8753.5080505@opus40.org> This doesn't seem to me to good argument against MFA programs. I'm hoping that at least some of the other 80 percent are still reading the occasional program. Halvard Johnson wrote: > There was a study some years back (back far enough that I can't cite > an source for it) that found that of MFA graduates (don't remember > if this was Iowa only or MFA programs in general) surveyed only > around 20% of them were still producing writing 5 years after > graduating from whatever program they were in. > > So it appeared that whatever career hopes they might have had were > dashed sufficiently after 5 years to stop them in their tracks. > > Anyone remember this? > > Hal > > follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest > collection -- > > http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Mark Weiss > wrote: > > It's really the wrong question, and the parameters you suggest, > Robin, are a little off. First those parameters. Most poets a > generation ago weren't MFAs , and most of those who taught in that > first generation also didn't have MFAs, but they were hardly a > product of the system. Blackburn also taught creative writing > during the last two years of his life, and Tom, as you note, has > also done so, but they're very much of the older world. > > The question of quality inevitably involves taste, and it would be > pointless to argue that. And it's not determinable, I think, even > if we all agreed in our taste, that the percentage of garbage has > climbed, tho I think the percentage of published garbage probably > has, as there has been an explosion of outlets, not least the web. > The problem, it seems to me, is that the programs tend to produce > (at least they try to) competent poets, who read (within a given > program, but more broadly across categories of programs) mostly > the same things. Competence implies knowing and having a way of > doing things. This becomes perpetuated in future hiring--one > recognizes similar competence in the applicants. What seems to be > happening already is a limited number of acceptable kinds of > institutional poetry of limited aesthetic ambition written largely > for an audience schooled to expect those limitations. Undoubtedly > some very good poetry is produced within these limitations--it > certainly can be--and undoubtedly there are some who successfully > rebel against the norms. That audience is almost entirely > university-based. It may be a larger audience than poetry has had > in the past few decades, but it's an audience of limited > perspective and relatively similar experience. > > Now maybe I'm completely wrong about this. Maybe the largest > change in the culture of poetry since it separated itself from the > clergy has had and will have no effect. Maybe, but I wouldn't put > money on it. > > Anecdotes are of course merely anecdotal. Here's a couple, from a > summer at Yaddo maybe 20 years ago. The younger cohort of poets > that summer were mostly new-minted Iowa MFAs. The acknowledged > star of the group was a southern poet who had written a historical > verse novel. Quite an achievement, tho I doubt even his mother > could love it. It was published and made his reputation, got him a > job and some eminence. He hasn't, to the best of my knowledge, > written another verse novel (why would anyone write a verse > novel?), but he has produced consistently awful verse that's > consistently praised by critice raised in the same educational > environment. > > The other is more intimate. In my world poets share poems, and > expect criticism from each other. One of the other Iowans and I > decided to meet for coffee and show each other work. She showed me > a dreadfully boring, competent poem. I suggested a few changes. > "But it's already been published!" I was really shocked. What does > that have to do with anything? If the poem needs helping one helps > it. Then I showed her one of mine. At the time I was writing > rhythmically-syncopated poetry that demanded occasional odd > linebreaks and with lines of very dissimilar length. She was > genuinely distressed. "But I was taught that all the lines should > be the same length!" I hope she had been on a fellowship, > otherwise she was cheated. > > Boy, do I long for the bohemia of not very long ago. > > Mark > > > At 12:41 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: >> << >> All this talk of the drabness produced by poets in workshops and >> MFA programs is rather pointless unless the accusers are willing >> to name names. Who exactly is producing this bad poetry? Or maybe >> more to the point, whose students are producing this bad poetry? >> >> Al has sorta a point here, and I was almost tempted to go >> somewhere and read some of the material. "Go forth and read some >> MFAers poetry -- you *know it's good for you." >> >> But the problem is finding a black swan ... or wading through >> masses of whatever. (Back to that *other prerenial debate on the >> Web and poetry, that as with the Great MFA Debate, all too often >> generates the usual glumly familiar partial answers.) >> >> But there's another way of approaching it. Of five poets whom >> you read recently, which of them were affiliated with the MFA >> system? Not just ones published who you're reading, but >> generally. (But even that's couching the question with a built >> in bias, as I'm sure no one is suggesting that absolutely all and >> every poet in any way associated with an MFA course is >> worthless. By sheer random chance, at the very least, some might >> be good. Or good *despite the MFA system?) >> >> So the last five I've been reading: >> >> Patrick Macmanus >> Simon Armitage >> Paul Blackburn >> nick-e melville >> Tom Leonard >> >> Mind you, given that Tom *did teach on an MA in Creative Writing >> course, maybe one of the five could be counted in. >> >> Or maybe the whole "name names" business is a misdirection. >> Maybe not. I'd turn the question back to Al -- name one poet >> produced by the MFA system who is worth reading? >> >> The problem here is partly sheer mediocrity, and like the poor, >> that always has been and always will be with us. Just seems to >> be more of it around than usual at the moment. >> >> Or maybe that's just my imagination ... >> >> Robin >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* > (University of California Press). > > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's /Random House > Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry/ has a bilingual anthology > so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the > United States and also created a superb collection of foreign > poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John > Palattella in /The Nation/ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From Opus40-01 Mon Mar 1 20:50:59 2010 From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Mar 1 20:50:59 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Reviewers wanted In-Reply-To: <8CC87AEED8844DD-5F64-4045@webmail-d037.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC87AEED8844DD-5F64-4045@webmail-d037.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B8C885B.3010301@opus40.org> I just got it -- read it -- will gladly post my comments on Amazon, although I don't know who else is much interested in a review from me. I liked the book a lot. Millicent wrote: > Announcement: > > For those of you who read my poetry book, Woman on a Shaky Bridge, I > sure would appreciate a review or a few lines posted on Amazon. > > For those interested in more formally reviewing my book (if you > regularly review books for a publication or an online site, please let > me know), I have a couple review copies left, or I could send you a > soft-copy). > > Thanks in advance, > > Millicent > > http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1599245523/ref=olp_product_details?ie=UTF8&me=&seller > = > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From ccooley Mon Mar 1 21:02:14 2010 From: ccooley (Crisman Cooley) Date: Mon Mar 1 21:02:14 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Poetry workshops all over the place Message-ID: In the process of looking for this quote, I found a few others that relate to this discussion: "Ignorant [people] of genius are constantly rediscovering 'laws' of art which the academics had mislaid or hidden." "There is one quality which unites all great and perdurable writers, you don't NEED schools and colleges to keep 'em alive. Put them out of the curriculum, lay them in the dust of libraries, and once in every so often a chance reader, unsubsidized and unbribed, will dig them up again, put them in the light again, without asking favours." "The honest critic must be content to find a VERY LITTLE contemporary work worth serious attention; but he must also be ready to RECOGNIZE that little, and to demote work of the past when a new work surpasses it." "More writers fail from lack of character than from lack of intelligence." "The great savants ignore, quite often, the idiocies of the ruck of the teaching profession." "The answer [to prosody] is: LISTEN to the sound that it makes." -- Ezra Pound _The ABC of Reading_ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100301/07c03610/attachment.html From halvard Mon Mar 1 22:24:35 2010 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Mar 1 22:24:35 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <4B8C8753.5080505@opus40.org> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C8753.5080505@opus40.org> Message-ID: I wasn't arguing against MFA programs. Nothing against them, but then I've no experience of them either. Hal follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest collection -- http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 9:34 PM, TheOldMole wrote: > This doesn't seem to me to good argument against MFA programs. I'm hoping > that at least some of the other 80 percent are still reading the occasional > program. > > Halvard Johnson wrote: > >> There was a study some years back (back far enough that I can't cite >> an source for it) that found that of MFA graduates (don't remember >> if this was Iowa only or MFA programs in general) surveyed only >> around 20% of them were still producing writing 5 years after >> graduating from whatever program they were in. >> >> So it appeared that whatever career hopes they might have had were >> dashed sufficiently after 5 years to stop them in their tracks. >> >> Anyone remember this? >> >> Hal >> >> follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest >> collection -- >> >> http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions >> >> Halvard Johnson >> ================ >> halvard at gmail.com >> >> http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home >> http://entropyandme.blogspot.com >> http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com >> http://www.hamiltonstone.org >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Mark Weiss > junction at earthlink.net>> wrote: >> >> It's really the wrong question, and the parameters you suggest, >> Robin, are a little off. First those parameters. Most poets a >> generation ago weren't MFAs , and most of those who taught in that >> first generation also didn't have MFAs, but they were hardly a >> product of the system. Blackburn also taught creative writing >> during the last two years of his life, and Tom, as you note, has >> also done so, but they're very much of the older world. >> >> The question of quality inevitably involves taste, and it would be >> pointless to argue that. And it's not determinable, I think, even >> if we all agreed in our taste, that the percentage of garbage has >> climbed, tho I think the percentage of published garbage probably >> has, as there has been an explosion of outlets, not least the web. >> The problem, it seems to me, is that the programs tend to produce >> (at least they try to) competent poets, who read (within a given >> program, but more broadly across categories of programs) mostly >> the same things. Competence implies knowing and having a way of >> doing things. This becomes perpetuated in future hiring--one >> recognizes similar competence in the applicants. What seems to be >> happening already is a limited number of acceptable kinds of >> institutional poetry of limited aesthetic ambition written largely >> for an audience schooled to expect those limitations. Undoubtedly >> some very good poetry is produced within these limitations--it >> certainly can be--and undoubtedly there are some who successfully >> rebel against the norms. That audience is almost entirely >> university-based. It may be a larger audience than poetry has had >> in the past few decades, but it's an audience of limited >> perspective and relatively similar experience. >> >> Now maybe I'm completely wrong about this. Maybe the largest >> change in the culture of poetry since it separated itself from the >> clergy has had and will have no effect. Maybe, but I wouldn't put >> money on it. >> >> Anecdotes are of course merely anecdotal. Here's a couple, from a >> summer at Yaddo maybe 20 years ago. The younger cohort of poets >> that summer were mostly new-minted Iowa MFAs. The acknowledged >> star of the group was a southern poet who had written a historical >> verse novel. Quite an achievement, tho I doubt even his mother >> could love it. It was published and made his reputation, got him a >> job and some eminence. He hasn't, to the best of my knowledge, >> written another verse novel (why would anyone write a verse >> novel?), but he has produced consistently awful verse that's >> consistently praised by critice raised in the same educational >> environment. >> >> The other is more intimate. In my world poets share poems, and >> expect criticism from each other. One of the other Iowans and I >> decided to meet for coffee and show each other work. She showed me >> a dreadfully boring, competent poem. I suggested a few changes. >> "But it's already been published!" I was really shocked. What does >> that have to do with anything? If the poem needs helping one helps >> it. Then I showed her one of mine. At the time I was writing >> rhythmically-syncopated poetry that demanded occasional odd >> linebreaks and with lines of very dissimilar length. She was >> genuinely distressed. "But I was taught that all the lines should >> be the same length!" I hope she had been on a fellowship, >> otherwise she was cheated. >> >> Boy, do I long for the bohemia of not very long ago. >> >> Mark >> >> >> At 12:41 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: >> >>> << >>> All this talk of the drabness produced by poets in workshops and >>> MFA programs is rather pointless unless the accusers are willing >>> to name names. Who exactly is producing this bad poetry? Or maybe >>> more to the point, whose students are producing this bad poetry? >>> >>> Al has sorta a point here, and I was almost tempted to go >>> somewhere and read some of the material. "Go forth and read some >>> MFAers poetry -- you *know it's good for you." >>> >>> But the problem is finding a black swan ... or wading through >>> masses of whatever. (Back to that *other prerenial debate on the >>> Web and poetry, that as with the Great MFA Debate, all too often >>> generates the usual glumly familiar partial answers.) >>> >>> But there's another way of approaching it. Of five poets whom >>> you read recently, which of them were affiliated with the MFA >>> system? Not just ones published who you're reading, but >>> generally. (But even that's couching the question with a built >>> in bias, as I'm sure no one is suggesting that absolutely all and >>> every poet in any way associated with an MFA course is >>> worthless. By sheer random chance, at the very least, some might >>> be good. Or good *despite the MFA system?) >>> >>> So the last five I've been reading: >>> >>> Patrick Macmanus >>> Simon Armitage >>> Paul Blackburn >>> nick-e melville >>> Tom Leonard >>> >>> Mind you, given that Tom *did teach on an MA in Creative Writing >>> course, maybe one of the five could be counted in. >>> >>> Or maybe the whole "name names" business is a misdirection. Maybe >>> not. I'd turn the question back to Al -- name one poet >>> produced by the MFA system who is worth reading? >>> >>> The problem here is partly sheer mediocrity, and like the poor, >>> that always has been and always will be with us. Just seems to >>> be more of it around than usual at the moment. >>> >>> Or maybe that's just my imagination ... >>> >>> Robin >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* >> (University of California Press). >> >> http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's /Random House >> Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry/ has a bilingual anthology >> so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the >> United States and also created a superb collection of foreign >> poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John >> Palattella in /The Nation/ >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > -- > Tad Richards > Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! > http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > > http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ > http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100301/a823b1f2/attachment.html From grahamd Mon Mar 1 23:37:12 2010 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Mon Mar 1 23:37:12 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) Message-ID: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> I guess my recurrent role in these threads is to note that most schools don't have MFA programs, most creative writing instruction in this country happens outside of such programs, and that most MFA programs are not Iowa. Furthermore, most creative writing instruction does not occur at the graduate level. These are facts that the broad-brushers railing about the MFA/academic/"official verse culture" ought to at least acknowledge. Just curious: can we have a show of hands as to how many subscribers to NewPo are teachers? Of those, how many teach in an MFA program? ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/c53642d3/attachment.html From bircumplus Tue Mar 2 01:00:50 2010 From: bircumplus (David Bircumshaw) Date: Tue Mar 2 01:00:50 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <71A9B8920EF140D78E0EA96B01F79981@RobinLaptopPC> References: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com><89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu> <4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com> <71A9B8920EF140D78E0EA96B01F79981@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <57636.53827.qm@web28516.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Last five poets I've read: Mallarme Robert Duncan Barry Macsweeney Mebh McGuckian C.K.Williams No reading programme etc behind that list. Of the three: Mallarme's your genuine article, easily the 'best':Macsweeney's incredibly uneven but some things, like his sequence 'Pearl', are possesed of that quality 'genuis'; Duncan I like, but possibly not for everyone: McGuckian's a versifier with a taste and flair for metaphor; Williams a clever prof with a conscience. This was mainly re-reading, but some work was new to me, as you may have gathered the last two made the least impression on me, they seemed thinnest. David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com ________________________________ From: Robin Hamilton To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Mon, 1 March, 2010 22:36:54 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place << And to Robin: open up that link I sent over, and go through the many links and you will see what kind of people are involved in the many MFA programs. I would tremble if I were you all, to throw such words at hard-working scholars. >> The problem with this point of Anny's, and Al's earlier list of names, is that it quite misses my point. Frankly, if all I wanted was an unsorted list of names or links, I'd go to Silliman's blog -- there are more there of both. What bothers me less than that I asked for five [sic] names of poets who'd been read recently and got in reply a *series of names and links, is that this exactly illustrates what is at issue on another thread -- there are lots and lots and *lots of poets out there, more than anyone can read even if on sabbatical and doing nothing else. What further bothers me is that this is recognised as a phenomenon, whether with approval or despair, but everybody seems to think it's either simply more of the same old same old -- "There have always been more bad poets than good, and the problem has always been finding the good ones" -- or cuts off the past -- "With the Web, things are Totally Different". Both statements seem to me inadequate, and further, both seem in an odd way, especially in the absences around solutions, to ignore other Web Places. There's a problem with regard to poetry at the moment with regard to distribution, information retrieval, and judgement of worth (value, appropriateness, whatever), and there are already existing models which, however inadequately, address this. Specifically, with respect to distribution, Amazon, with respect to information retrieval, google, and with respect to judgement, Wiki. For better or worse, these things work, and are *still developing. I don't know what the answer to the present situation will be, but I'm pretty certain that some sort of impact from these three models will impact on "the poetry scene". And as I'm ever hopeful, for better rather than for worse. << And HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO ROBIN ! >> Thanks Anny -- I'm currently feeling *really old, especially when I remember that I was working with computer programming as a way of generating poetry, and the use of programming languages in poetry, as early as the late sixties. Jeez, it's not that I remember forty years of change, from when computers were ladies dressed in valves, and one, memorably (at least for me) tried to kill me, but that I actually lived through it all. A funny feeling, being there when a world comes into existence, and then to watch it grow. And it may give me an odd perspective on this whole business. Robin +++++++++++++++++++ On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 7:39 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: I don't know, but market forces would come into play. While more and more fiction is being published if at all by university or small presses, the prize remains the best seller list and publishers who can get a book on it. It's posible, still, for a few novelists to live by their writing. It's virtually impossible for poets. Mark Anecdotally: the older, non-MFA poets who earned their living when it became possible by teaching writing, those I know personally, at least, heaved a big sigh of relief when they retired and no longer had to do so. They always felt dishonest, because they didn't think poetry could be taught. Most were loved by their students, to whom they didn't express these opinions. At 01:21 PM 3/1/2010, you wrote: My 2 bits. Actually a question. Becoming a poet out of the academy predisposed me to look askance at poetry produced in the academy. And even after I was teaching for over 20 years I felt the same way, feeling (rightly or wrongly) that the poets I liked were those who (though they may have been professors) I felt were non-academic. Frankly, I still tend to still feel that way after 28 years. (Although that may be beginning to change.) BUT when I started reading tons of contemporary fiction, I found great writing coming out of creative writing programs. Are poets in creative writing programs more career oriented (writing to one of several contemporary styles, networking, prize junkies, etc.), compared to fiction writers, or is that my distorted perspective? -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [ mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Bircumshaw Sent: Monday, March 01, 2010 10:37 AM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place It's been interesting watching the river flow on this and related topics here lately. There are certainly ominous signs of something similar beginning in the UK and what seems to come across is that "being a recognised poet" is subtly linked with a kind of certificate of middleclassdom. Even though its bearers would loudly deny the category. I can hardly begin to describe the drabness of the poetry they are producing: it makes me want to cry. There is a kind of army of the tin-eared and tedious emerging from the swamp, particularly at locations familiar to Robin such as De Montfort University. And they want to own, to control everything. Any independent life within the poetry scene is anathema to them, it disturbs their sense of their own class status. I've been closely involved with a workshop similar to the one Roger described for 19 years, yet I am almost physically being forced out by such people. One of the curiosities of the situation is that they seem to find allies in the performance poetry scene - I don't know if that happens in the US or whether it is that here matters are more purely that of networks of class closing in the face of recession, because the web of mediocrity gathers in the middle-class amateur poet happily too, as long as they're amenable. But it's no genteel suffocation: these characters play dirty - in the first post after Christmas I had a letter informing me of my 'resignation' from a group I had been involved with, on my birthday I had another letter making veiled threatd of a legal kind unless I surrendered to them some software (which consisted of a copy of a free disk given away by a pc magazine) which they considered their 'intellectual property'. They are small, talentless, vindictive suburbanites, and are probably setting up a poetry press right now near you anytime soon, as it were. David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com From: Mark Weiss To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Mon, 1 March, 2010 2:33:12 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place It's usually a battle within lit departments, unless creative writing becomes its own departmewnt. Has a lot to do with who would get to vote on budget and hires if there were suddenly a bunch of creative writing profs with votes. In the cases I know of the dean usually steps in and weighs in on the side of creative writing, which is a real cash cow. All of this is usually clothed in questions of principle, and I'm sure many of the oarticipants believe it, but it's finally about money and power, and the prestige that brings money and power. Mark At 09:02 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: I was just thinking that at Yale one can get MFA in Painting, but not one in Poetry. Some of the strong lit programs have not formed MFA in Creative Writing programs. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Sun, Feb 28, 2010 8:54 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place Might get you an adjunct job, but not in CW. It's not considered a terminal degree. At 08:51 PM 2/28/2010, you wrote: Does the straight MA in English carry an weight? Finnegan _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/e8a17107/attachment.html From Opus40-01 Tue Mar 2 04:06:34 2010 From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole) Date: Tue Mar 2 04:06:34 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> References: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4B8CEE76.8010602@opus40.org> One hand up. I teach on an undergraduate level, have never taught in a MFA program, have taught undergraduate creative writing courses, generally believe that their purpose is to expose students to a different way of approaching, considering and experiencing literature, not as an apprenticeship for a professional career. David Graham wrote: > > > I guess my recurrent role in these threads is to note that most > schools don't have MFA programs, most creative writing instruction in > this country happens outside of such programs, and that most MFA > programs are not Iowa. Furthermore, most creative writing instruction > does not occur at the graduate level. These are facts that the > broad-brushers railing about the MFA/academic/"official verse culture" > ought to at least acknowledge. > > Just curious: can we have a show of hands as to how many subscribers > to NewPo are teachers? Of those, how many teach in an MFA program? > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From junction Tue Mar 2 07:37:22 2010 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue Mar 2 07:37:22 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: <4B8CEE76.8010602@opus40.org> References: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> <4B8CEE76.8010602@opus40.org> Message-ID: Are your students creative writing majors? At 05:54 AM 3/2/2010, you wrote: >One hand up. I teach on an undergraduate level, have never taught in >a MFA program, have taught undergraduate creative writing courses, >generally believe that their purpose is to expose students to a >different way of approaching, considering and experiencing >literature, not as an apprenticeship for a professional career. > >David Graham wrote: >> >> >>I guess my recurrent role in these threads is to note that most >>schools don't have MFA programs, most creative writing instruction >>in this country happens outside of such programs, and that most MFA >>programs are not Iowa. Furthermore, most creative writing >>instruction does not occur at the graduate level. These are facts >>that the broad-brushers railing about the MFA/academic/"official >>verse culture" ought to at least acknowledge. >> >>Just curious: can we have a show of hands as to how many >>subscribers to NewPo are teachers? Of those, how many teach in an >>MFA program? >> >> >>======================================== >>David Graham >>grahamd at ripon.edu >> >>Home Page: >>http://web.me.com/drjazz >> >>Poetry Library: >>http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >>========================================== >> >> >> >> >>------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >-- >Tad Richards >Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner > >http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/47d81d0c/attachment.html From heatherjunegibbons Tue Mar 2 08:01:54 2010 From: heatherjunegibbons (Heather June Gibbons) Date: Tue Mar 2 08:01:54 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> References: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> Message-ID: Agreed, David. These are important facts to acknowledge. Show of hand: I teach creative writing to undergraduates, only some of whom are creative writing majors. And I have an MFA from Iowa. -Heather Heather June Gibbons heatherjunegibbons.com On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:25 AM, David Graham wrote: > > > I guess my recurrent role in these threads is to note that most schools > don't have MFA programs, most creative writing instruction in this country > happens outside of such programs, and that most MFA programs are not Iowa. > Furthermore, most creative writing instruction does not occur at the > graduate level. These are facts that the broad-brushers railing about the > MFA/academic/"official verse culture" ought to at least acknowledge. > > Just curious: can we have a show of hands as to how many subscribers to > NewPo are teachers? Of those, how many teach in an MFA program? > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/5c8a6c20/attachment-0001.html From almaginnes Tue Mar 2 08:05:56 2010 From: almaginnes (almaginnes@aol.com) Date: Tue Mar 2 08:05:56 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: References: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <8CC882F40B93828-1B04-4A65@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> I teach in a community college. No creative writing majors here but some of my students have gone on to major in writing as undergrads and several have gotten MFA's. I have an MFA from the University of Arkansas. -----Original Message----- From: Heather June Gibbons To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Tue, Mar 2, 2010 9:50 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) Agreed, David. These are important facts to acknowledge. Show of hand: I teach creative writing to undergraduates, only some of whom are creative writing majors. And I have an MFA from Iowa. -Heather Heather June Gibbons heatherjunegibbons.com On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:25 AM, David Graham wrote: I guess my recurrent role in these threads is to note that most schools don't have MFA programs, most creative writing instruction in this country happens outside of such programs, and that most MFA programs are not Iowa. Furthermore, most creative writing instruction does not occur at the graduate level. These are facts that the broad-brushers railing about the MFA/academic/"official verse culture" ought to at least acknowledge. Just curious: can we have a show of hands as to how many subscribers to NewPo are teachers? Of those, how many teach in an MFA program? ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/4586bc98/attachment.html From cervantes.james Tue Mar 2 08:14:49 2010 From: cervantes.james (James Cervantes) Date: Tue Mar 2 08:14:49 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> References: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <648208b61003020702o4683de0eh96f66e7f2036a867@mail.gmail.com> Agreed, David. MFA from Iowa (74), and taught creative writing at a community college, poetry writing to undergrads at a couple of colleges and universities, and a grad seminar at a university with a writing program that soon after began offering the MFA. Many high points, but I'm happy to write of this in past tense. - Jim On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 11:25 PM, David Graham wrote: > > > I guess my recurrent role in these threads is to note that most schools > don't have MFA programs, most creative writing instruction in this country > happens outside of such programs, and that most MFA programs are not Iowa. > Furthermore, most creative writing instruction does not occur at the > graduate level. These are facts that the broad-brushers railing about the > MFA/academic/"official verse culture" ought to at least acknowledge. > > Just curious: can we have a show of hands as to how many subscribers to > NewPo are teachers? Of those, how many teach in an MFA program? > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/6e8b4b42/attachment.html From grahamd Tue Mar 2 08:28:54 2010 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Tue Mar 2 08:28:54 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: <8CC882F40B93828-1B04-4A65@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I teach at Ripon College, a very small liberal arts school with no grad students. No creative writing track in the English department, where I teach freshman comp, sophomore surveys, various topics courses, and creative writing classes--and not every semester for the latter. This is the career my MFA prepared me for, and in fact I have no complaints. I've been very lucky to be able to do what I love to do. In my 23 years at Ripon I've had, I think, only 2 students go on to publish books of poetry. A handful more went to grad school in creative writing, then for the most part moved in other directions. None that I know of teaches in an MFA program. Need I add that preparing students for "careers" in writing is not my goal? Otherwise, imagine how bitter I might be, instead of the cheery and agreeable fellow you all know me as. . . . Another thing I find myself pitching regularly into these discussions when they crop up is that the world of academic creative writing is not a monolith. (Start with the fact that there are numerous schools with programs other than the MFA.) The many kinds of programs have widely differing goals and strengths, and of course students attend them for a whole range of reasons. Becoming like Jorie Graham and teaching at Iowa may be a daydream for many, but by no means all, and it's certainly not a reality for the vast majority of us. As I've often written, I think there are many things wrong with a lot of creative writing programs. To the extent that they exist as separate entities from literature programs I am always skeptical, for instance. But like everyone else who tunes into these discussions I'm still awaiting the evidence that the academic study of writing has harmed contemporary poetry in palpable ways. What seems obvious to some just isn't to me. So, like Al Maginnes, I'm eagerly awaiting the specifics, the named names, and so forth. On 3/2/10 8:53 AM, "almaginnes at aol.com" wrote: > I teach in a community college. No creative writing majors here but some of my > students have gone on to major in writing as undergrads and several have > gotten MFA's. I have an MFA from the University of Arkansas. > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Heather June Gibbons > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views > > Sent: Tue, Mar 2, 2010 9:50 am > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) > > Agreed, David. These are important facts to acknowledge. > > Show of hand: I teach creative writing to undergraduates, only some of whom > are creative writing majors. And I have an MFA from Iowa. > > -Heather > > Heather June Gibbons > heatherjunegibbons.com > > > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:25 AM, David Graham wrote: >> >> >> I guess my recurrent role in these threads is to note that most schools don't >> have MFA programs, most creative writing instruction in this country happens >> outside of such programs, and that most MFA programs are not Iowa. >> Furthermore, most creative writing instruction does not occur at the graduate >> level. These are facts that the broad-brushers railing about the >> MFA/academic/"official verse culture" ought to at least acknowledge. >> >> Just curious: can we have a show of hands as to how many subscribers to >> NewPo are teachers? Of those, how many teach in an MFA program? >> >> ==================================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz/ Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ==================================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/a7a9281f/attachment.html From halvard Tue Mar 2 08:35:28 2010 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue Mar 2 08:35:28 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> References: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> Message-ID: I'm a reformed (or retired or retarded) teacher. Never taught (or studied) in an MFA program. Didn't teach "creative writing" much either. Hal follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest collection -- http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 12:25 AM, David Graham wrote: > > > I guess my recurrent role in these threads is to note that most schools > don't have MFA programs, most creative writing instruction in this country > happens outside of such programs, and that most MFA programs are not Iowa. > Furthermore, most creative writing instruction does not occur at the > graduate level. These are facts that the broad-brushers railing about the > MFA/academic/"official verse culture" ought to at least acknowledge. > > Just curious: can we have a show of hands as to how many subscribers to > NewPo are teachers? Of those, how many teach in an MFA program? > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/c90e5acd/attachment.html From cheekc Tue Mar 2 08:48:08 2010 From: cheekc (cris cheek) Date: Tue Mar 2 08:48:08 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: References: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> <4B8CEE76.8010602@opus40.org> Message-ID: i teach at the moment in south-west ohio. at Miami in Oxford. THe English Department that i work in has 3 prongs . . . Literature, Creative Writing, Composition and Rhetoric. There are about 350 creative writing majors, 340 literature, under 50 composition and rhetoric. We do not offer an MFA, but we do have an MA. This very week Lee Ann Brown is visiting teaching the graduate poetry sprint workshop (previous visitors for this in the past few years have included Bernadette Mayer, Rae Armantrout, Trevor Joyce, Tom Raworth and myself . . .). We have a small cohort of graduate poetry students (8), about twice that many in fiction and about that many in creative non-fiction. Anyway so we have a large number of people taking creative writing majors as undergraduates. They have to do a lot of Lit classes, they take both fiction and poetry until their senior year, they take surveys of the field, take introductions to cultural studies and critical theory. Many of the creative writing majors are double majors in other subjects of study . . . psychology, interactive media studies, communication and philosophy are all popular combos . . . We host quite a lot of readings both on and off campus. We have a great network of local poets, South (West) Ohio Poets . . . S (W) O P on facebook, and we had a reading to celebrate this emergent group last November that included 24 poets (Tyrone Williams, Dana Ward and Norman Finkelstein, Arjanil Mukherjee amongst them) This spring we will host post_moot 2 and the list of participants incoming right now is as follows: Stan Apps, Oana Avasilichioaei, Mike Basinski, Holly Bass, John M. Bennett, Black Took Collective, Sean Bonney, Tammy Brown, Mairead Byrne, Sh? Cage, cris cheek, Daniel Citro, Alejandro Crawford, Maria Damon, Ian Davidson, Ryan Downey, Alan Golding, Nada Gordon, K. Lorraine Graham, Duriel Harris, Carla Harryman, Jeff Hilson, Jen, Hofer, William R. Howe, Jade Hudson, Christine Hume, Peter Jaeger, Mark Jeffery, Bonnie Jones, Pierre Joris, Adeena Karasick, Brian Kincaid, Rodney Koenecke, Jose Luna, Dawn Lundy-Martin, Mel Nichols, Hoa Nguyen, Chris Mann, Monica Mody, K. Silem Mohammad, Laura Moriarty, Judd Morrissey, Erin Moure, Tom Orange, Jessica Ponto, Luke Roberts, Jaime Robles, Stephen Rodefer, Ric Royer, Ken Rumble, Linda Russo, Lisa Samuels, Standard Schaefer, Jonathan Skinner, Danny Snelson, Todd Seabrook, Jessica Smith, Rod Smith, Kate Sopko, Fiona Templeton, Rodrigo Toscano, Laurence Upton, Chris Vitiello, Catherine Wagner, Mark Wallace, Dana Ward, Barrett Watten, Brian Whitener, Steve Willey, Tyrone Williams, Ronaldo Wilson i dunno. i think we have something interesting going on. We also have the MESHWORKS online archive of videotaped readings that is slowly growing into a serious resource . . . SOME of our undergraduate go on to graduate programs and some of our MA students go on into MFA and PhD programs. I'd say the percentage that do is about 20-30%. Some of those who g on in academic pursuits want to teach (some in schools and some in colleges and universities) and some are developing a serious practice and some flip across into Literature. Some hang about and get jobs and carry on writing poetry, some go into publishing, some disappear in the bottle and some just get on with their lives but carrying an interest in poetry with them wherever they wander. One example of the university path might be Justin Katko who took a BA/MA here before going to do electronic literature at Brown and is now in Cambridge (UK) writing a PhD on Edward Dorn. The latter pursuit can hardly be seen as a clear path to academic employment in the current climate. He is following an intense passion. He is a young poet producing exciting work both on and off the page. He is an energetic organiser of events and he is a fine publisher of mostly samizdat poetry books. just my three cents worth xxx cc On Mar 2, 2010, at 9:25 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Are your students creative writing majors? > > At 05:54 AM 3/2/2010, you wrote: >> One hand up. I teach on an undergraduate level, have never taught >> in a MFA program, have taught undergraduate creative writing >> courses, generally believe that their purpose is to expose >> students to a different way of approaching, considering and >> experiencing literature, not as an apprenticeship for a >> professional career. >> >> David Graham wrote: >>> >>> >>> I guess my recurrent role in these threads is to note that most >>> schools don't have MFA programs, most creative writing >>> instruction in this country happens outside of such programs, and >>> that most MFA programs are not Iowa. Furthermore, most creative >>> writing instruction does not occur at the graduate level. These >>> are facts that the broad-brushers railing about the MFA/ >>> academic/"official verse culture" ought to at least acknowledge. >>> >>> Just curious: can we have a show of hands as to how many >>> subscribers to NewPo are teachers? Of those, how many teach in >>> an MFA program? >>> >>> >>> ======================================== >>> David Graham >>> grahamd at ripon.edu < mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu> >>> >>> Home Page: >>> http://web.me.com/drjazz >>> >>> Poetry Library: >>> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >>> ========================================== >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -------------------------------------------------------------------- >>> ---- >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> -- >> Tad Richards >> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >> >> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry > (University of California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book > of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so > effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the > United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems > in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in > The Nation > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/2083b71e/attachment.html From cvoisine Tue Mar 2 08:49:29 2010 From: cvoisine (Connie Voisine) Date: Tue Mar 2 08:49:29 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> References: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <36cb1de81003020737o4d26284cs36ac64fa89c31e2a@mail.gmail.com> i direct and teach in an mfa program. we also have a great undergraduate program (a new major). i have a great time and so do my students--it's a temporary poetry cult for them, for me year in and year out. even if they don't continue writing (which happens more than not), their connection to poetry was nurtured and can provide a lifetime of pleasure. reading (and writing) saved my life (no irony at all). connie On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 11:25 PM, David Graham wrote: > > > I guess my recurrent role in these threads is to note that most schools > don't have MFA programs, most creative writing instruction in this country > happens outside of such programs, and that most MFA programs are not Iowa. > ?Furthermore, most creative writing instruction does not occur at the > graduate level. ?These are facts that the broad-brushers railing about the > MFA/academic/"official verse culture" ought to at least acknowledge. > Just curious: ?can we have a show of hands as to how many subscribers to > NewPo are teachers? ?Of those, how many teach in an MFA program? > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Connie Voisine Associate Professor of English New Mexico State University cvoisine at nmsu.edu 575-646-2027 From chris Tue Mar 2 09:13:06 2010 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Tue Mar 2 09:13:06 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: References: <8CC882F40B93828-1B04-4A65@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 6:17 AM, David Graham wrote: > So, like Al > Maginnes, I'm eagerly awaiting the specifics, the named names, and so forth. I would too, but I'm not holding my breath... c From jeff.newberry Tue Mar 2 09:20:32 2010 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue Mar 2 09:20:32 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: References: <8CC882F40B93828-1B04-4A65@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <731bb17a1003020808l4a46b5a7i85f2dfc90ec04564@mail.gmail.com> The "MFA is hurting poetry" argument is old, trite, and frankly banal, if you ask me. I don't hear these same arguments about academic visual art or music programs, though I'm sure that there are some philistines in the world who would make such arguments. I don't teach in an MFA program, and I don't have an MFA, although I am a student (ABD) in the creative writing program (Ph.D) at the University of Georgia. Like Al, I teach at what amounts to a community college. I rarely teach creative writing; my load is made up, primarily, of composition and survey literature courses. I have used creative writing in the classroom as an attempt to open up discussions: I've examples of list/catalog poetry as a way to teach my writers how to use concrete, specific examples in their essays. Very few of my students will go on to study English; very few of those will focus on creative writing. Right now, I have *one *student who's interested in pursuing creative writing in his advanced course work. Jeff Newberry On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Chris Lott wrote: > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 6:17 AM, David Graham wrote: > > So, like Al > > Maginnes, I'm eagerly awaiting the specifics, the named names, and so > forth. > > I would too, but I'm not holding my breath... > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/f02c322b/attachment.html From junction Tue Mar 2 10:08:55 2010 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue Mar 2 10:08:55 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1003020808l4a46b5a7i85f2dfc90ec04564@mail.gmail.co m> References: <8CC882F40B93828-1B04-4A65@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> <731bb17a1003020808l4a46b5a7i85f2dfc90ec04564@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Visual artists and composers have always required long periods of study, and very few have managed to learn what they need to pursue their art without the help of teachers. That those teachers now function largely within an academic setting is a relatively new and minor change. The technical information needed is still too large for all but a very few to learn what they have to do merely by looking at pictures or listening to music. This isn't true of poetry or literature in general. When renaissance visual artists were apprenticing in the studios of masters a vibrant and revolutionary literature was being produced by writers who had the usual training that literate folks had, which sometimes included a bit of poetry writing and almost always included rhetoric. They were considered polite accomplishments but also training in both thought and persuasion, and if translated into modern terms they would occupy places in high school or college curricula. Those parts of the curricula disappeared in subsequent periods, with no apparent effect on the willingness to produce or the quality of the writing. The difference is that we all of us have and practice constantly the use of language, whereas few of us do the same with applying paint to canvas, etc, or writing counterpoint. The tools to build on are already there. Even if one has built a satisfying life in Creative Writing and it makes one's students happy it would seem incredible not to ask oneself from time to time what, other than the provision of a pleasant life for some and entertainment for others, the purpose of an academic field, with all the infrastructure of an industry, that nobody ever thought was needed before, accomplishes and why such an astonishing thing happened. To question in this manner is no more banal than questioning any other assumptions. My own feeling is that there's nothing harmful about creative writing courses for undergraduates, as long is they're limited to one or two during a four year program, and as such it hardly matters what department their taught under, and I certainly understand the utility for those who want to study, say, the renaissance, trying their hand at writing a few sonnets. I frankly don't understand why there are majors in creative writing as opposed to majors in literature with a couple of creative writing electives. I also don't much care if there are institutions granting MFAs. Most of my worries about the consequences for the art and for education would be eliminated if a requirement for entry were that one not be under 40. That's not a joke. My worries are not mitigated by reports of the pleasures of a life in Creative Writing or of the disparate uses people have made of their degrees. I am concerned about the bureaucratization of the field. I think it's already had an impact, as how could it not? Grades, peer support, publication in journals by people with similar training, militate towards writing acceptable poetry. I'm aware that there are several kinds of acceptable poetry, but I think the same process is going on in each. And there's more than a whiff of the inbred in an industry that trains and certifies, and staffs publishing houses and journals that in turn provide the publishing credits to help keep the circle going. I'm not surprised that those living among the trees can't always see the forest. Asking those skeptical of the enterprise to list the poets they find inconsequential at best is more than a little unfair. Open almost any journal and choose at random. But if I, for instance, were to brand a list of younger writers (the eminences are of course more criticizable because less impacted by criticism) as inconsequential would be in many cases to insult people I associate with and like. And I simply won't do so in a public forum. My skepticism of the enterprise is partly a matter of my age--I predate the growth of Creative Writing from a few random outposts and a few elective courses to its present industrial status. It's also fed by my awareness of the vibrancy of literature in countries where no such industry exists and in our own countries before it did. That said, many of my closest friends, and poets I greatly admire, teach or taught creative writing for a living. What dissent there is doesn't threaten their livelihoods, the field is too well established, too big to let fail. Because of my friends I have a degree of ambivalence about what could or should be done. I'm not interested in the food being taken from the mouths of anybody's children. Armand Schwerner, who taught literature, used to say that the poet had an accidental curriculum. Very little of it can be taught within college walls. What's happening, on a micro level, is a discouraging of risk taking, in life certainly, but also in writing. Best, Mark At 11:08 AM 3/2/2010, you wrote: >The "MFA is hurting poetry" argument is old, trite, and frankly >banal, if you ask me. I don't hear these same arguments about >academic visual art or music programs, though I'm sure that there >are some philistines in the world who would make such arguments. > >I don't teach in an MFA program, and I don't have an MFA, although I >am a student (ABD) in the creative writing program (Ph.D) at the >University of Georgia. Like Al, I teach at what amounts to a >community college. I rarely teach creative writing; my load is >made up, primarily, of composition and survey literature courses. I >have used creative writing in the classroom as an attempt to open up >discussions: I've examples of list/catalog poetry as a way to teach >my writers how to use concrete, specific examples in their essays. > >Very few of my students will go on to study English; very few of >those will focus on creative writing. Right now, I have one student >who's interested in pursuing creative writing in his advanced course work. > >Jeff Newberry > > >On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Chris Lott ><chris at chrislott.org> wrote: >On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 6:17 AM, David Graham ><grahamd at ripon.edu> wrote: > > So, like Al > > Maginnes, I'm eagerly awaiting the specifics, the named names, > and so forth. > >I would too, but I'm not holding my breath... > >c >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > >-- >You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; >and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular >people and experience, from which each according to his own >immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/f2cde45b/attachment.html From acgold01 Tue Mar 2 10:09:43 2010 From: acgold01 (Alan C Golding) Date: Tue Mar 2 10:09:43 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound Message-ID: <4B8CFD2D.AC48.0004.0@gwise.louisville.edu> "Ignorant [people] of genius are constantly rediscovering 'laws' of art which the academics had mislaid or hidden." "There is one quality which unites all great and perdurable writers, you don't NEED schools and colleges to keep 'em alive. Put them out of the curriculum, lay them in the dust of libraries, and once in every so often a chance reader, unsubsidized and unbribed, will dig them up again, put them in the light again, without asking favours." "The great savants ignore, quite often, the idiocies of the ruck of the teaching profession." -- Ezra Pound _The ABC of Reading_ Not to demur from, exactly, but to supplement or complicate Crisman's introduction of Pound into the conversation: Pound spent much of his career thinking about, addressing and hoping to transform the academy, even if that address takes the form of decades-worth of railing. From his earliest essays on (see "Raphaelite Latin") he's theorizing the (possible) place of the creative writer in teaching institutions. ABC of Reading is a textbook, first published in the US by a university press, though admittedly probably not as a realistic intervention in the textbook market. One can read Pound as a pedagogical poet who wanted to change pedagogical institutions. His rhetoric was oppositional, but he also liked (tried?) to imagine the artist-academy boundaries that he invoked as porous. Alan Teacher, of undergrads and grads, not of creative writing, at an institution with a newly established CW minor but no CW major, and with an "MA with creative thesis" option at the grad level but no MFA. From bircumplus Tue Mar 2 10:43:25 2010 From: bircumplus (David Bircumshaw) Date: Tue Mar 2 10:43:25 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: <36cb1de81003020737o4d26284cs36ac64fa89c31e2a@mail.gmail.com> References: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> <36cb1de81003020737o4d26284cs36ac64fa89c31e2a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <535842.31885.qm@web28504.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Left school at 16. Education: local and city libraries. Later own bought books. Have never taught professionally. ?David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com ________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/ad4ecef4/attachment.html From skip Tue Mar 2 10:55:14 2010 From: skip (Skip Fox) Date: Tue Mar 2 10:55:14 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound In-Reply-To: <4B8CFD2D.AC48.0004.0@gwise.louisville.edu> Message-ID: Are his ideal scholars who would inform the state (in the person of Malatesta, Mussolini, etc.) and reintroduce the classics divorced from the academy (like Kung)? I cannot remember. -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Alan C Golding Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 10:58 AM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound "Ignorant [people] of genius are constantly rediscovering 'laws' of art which the academics had mislaid or hidden." "There is one quality which unites all great and perdurable writers, you don't NEED schools and colleges to keep 'em alive. Put them out of the curriculum, lay them in the dust of libraries, and once in every so often a chance reader, unsubsidized and unbribed, will dig them up again, put them in the light again, without asking favours." "The great savants ignore, quite often, the idiocies of the ruck of the teaching profession." -- Ezra Pound _The ABC of Reading_ Not to demur from, exactly, but to supplement or complicate Crisman's introduction of Pound into the conversation: Pound spent much of his career thinking about, addressing and hoping to transform the academy, even if that address takes the form of decades-worth of railing. From his earliest essays on (see "Raphaelite Latin") he's theorizing the (possible) place of the creative writer in teaching institutions. ABC of Reading is a textbook, first published in the US by a university press, though admittedly probably not as a realistic intervention in the textbook market. One can read Pound as a pedagogical poet who wanted to change pedagogical institutions. His rhetoric was oppositional, but he also liked (tried?) to imagine the artist-academy boundaries that he invoked as porous. Alan Teacher, of undergrads and grads, not of creative writing, at an institution with a newly established CW minor but no CW major, and with an "MA with creative thesis" option at the grad level but no MFA. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From reneea Tue Mar 2 11:02:55 2010 From: reneea (Renee Ashley) Date: Tue Mar 2 11:02:55 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) References: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4772FA740BA14CF48302AE410EFF8F0A@Barnette> I teach in an MFA program. Fairleigh Dickinson Univ., NJ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/a2e85cab/attachment-0001.html From reneea Tue Mar 2 11:07:14 2010 From: reneea (Renee Ashley) Date: Tue Mar 2 11:07:14 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place References: <1B7C870D-CFC6-453B-BF74-AFC57AA43724@ripon.edu><8CC86B9EC8F3F94-47DC-1B178@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com><648208b61002281047w262b5ee1p3f0c44e8213eccb@mail.gmail.com><4b65c2d71002281054g9f84fcbo2b3b8d91e2bc815d@mail.gmail.com><4b65c2d71002281133ue494a5au214bda26599ca09f@mail.gmail.com><8CC86E79962E54D-47DC-1EF93@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> <8CC86F8DE4DCF70-47DC-20A94@webmail-d023.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <7165C324EFA24FF585B908CF11BC4590@Barnette> The MA isn't considered a terminal degree. The MFA is. So not much weight. ----- Original Message ----- From: jforjames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sunday, February 28, 2010 8:51 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place Does the straight MA in English carry an weight? Finnegan ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/f2a218eb/attachment.html From cvoisine Tue Mar 2 11:20:12 2010 From: cvoisine (Connie Voisine) Date: Tue Mar 2 11:20:12 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: <4772FA740BA14CF48302AE410EFF8F0A@Barnette> References: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> <4772FA740BA14CF48302AE410EFF8F0A@Barnette> Message-ID: <36cb1de81003021008n54aaaca2x4806fe5b170d222a@mail.gmail.com> i think love and pleasure are worth a lot in my writing life. the way i see it--english studies has been professionalized in such a way that even undergraduate students are more involved in developing their "readings" (marx, feminist, post-structuralist) or the cultural studies angle on literature (pulp fiction, victorian women's magazines, etc.) that most of the teaching of actual poems happens in CW classes. in cw classes this semester everything from the illiad to teresa cha. I teach more books per class than most literature professors i know. and i can't assume that english majors (lit majors) know what modernism is. enough of this conversation for me. c -- Connie Voisine Associate Professor of English New Mexico State University cvoisine at nmsu.edu 575-646-2027 From robin.hamilton2 Tue Mar 2 11:29:51 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue Mar 2 11:29:51 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: References: <8CC882F40B93828-1B04-4A65@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com><731bb17a1003020808l4a46b5a7i85f2dfc90ec04564@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: My hand up (tacked on to Mark's post, partly because I completely (or mostly) agree with what he said. Formally my teaching was lit. generally and Renaissance lit specifically, at one point organising an introductory course in *reading poetry, since undergraduates were arriving from highschool apparently only having read two First World War Poets and one Metaphysical Poet. I taught exactly one course on creative writing, at the undergraduate level, for one semester, filling in (reluctantly) for a colleague on exchange in America (though I was also, throughout, the co-examination marker for the coursework submitted for that course). [Though this was also the point when I became interested in translating poetry, on the lines of, "Don't ask anyone to do anything you haven't at least tried to do yourself," so I ended up translating a poem by Lorca, and a couple of years later supervising a final year undergraduate dissertation by a student which comprised a long collection of his Lorca translations. Bloody good they were, too.] That's the official side. Unofficially, I ran groups, helped students produce magazines, talked my head off, tried to be generally supportive, all the usual stuff that -- whine whine -- if you have an MFA, you get paid for doing, and if you don't, you have to do it for nothing in your spare time. Actually, that's only partly a joke -- the career stream I was in, teaching about literature rather than teaching how to do it (sort of) is I think the *only job where writing poetry is actually counterproductive in career terms -- even bank managers are allowed to do it. As a hobby. But the third (or was it the sixth or seventh?) time I got hit with the question, first of all when I was applying for jobs and later on when I was before a promotion review committee or something like that, "Do you find that writing poetry *interferes with your teaching?" I kid you not, that was the word used every miserable time -- "interferes". I began to get the sense that someone was trying to tell me something. Basically, the job I was doing, teaching English in a (UK) university, it would have been better for my career prospects if the time I spent writing poetry, I'd devoted to playing golf. Come to think of it, if I'd played golf rather than written poetry, I'd have been *much better off. And don't even *start me on how the "refereed journal" criterion for the acceptabilty of academic articles kinda sorta disadvantages anyone who tends to write exactly the same thing, but publish it in a poetry magazine. My tuppence worth. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 11:56 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) Visual artists and composers have always required long periods of study, and very few have managed to learn what they need to pursue their art without the help of teachers. That those teachers now function largely within an academic setting is a relatively new and minor change. The technical information needed is still too large for all but a very few to learn what they have to do merely by looking at pictures or listening to music. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/0829c36a/attachment.html From jeff.newberry Tue Mar 2 11:32:26 2010 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue Mar 2 11:32:26 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <4B8C4566.8000803@nut-n-but.net> References: <1653.94058.qm@web28514.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> <89A97F2C51DE4BFA863CA7B2019E5302@win.louisiana.edu> <4b65c2d71003011208o58ba87fcwfb06d60dccfd45e6@mail.gmail.com> <71A9B8920EF140D78E0EA96B01F79981@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C4566.8000803@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <731bb17a1003021020n3644000fx19e8e05377611ad6@mail.gmail.com> "Threatens" is not the same as "bores to death," Bob. Of course, you're going to draw your own conclusions, as you are wont to do. Jeff Newberry On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 5:53 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > The first step to any solution is a list of schools of poetry. > > I know, Jeff, I keep saying this, but I haven't bothered to for a long time > since I know the idea threatens most poets. Gotta do it at least once every > few years, though. > > --Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/55c939af/attachment.html From jeff.newberry Tue Mar 2 11:34:24 2010 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue Mar 2 11:34:24 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> Teaching on a university level requires a terminal degree, Bob. If you want to be angry, at least be angry at the right people. Jeff Newberry, Establishment Drone On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > > > I also notice that every post to New-Poetry or elsewhere that I've seen > that announces some position at a college for a teacher of any kind of > creative writing requires an MFA, if not a Ph.D. > --Bob > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/6f8f85d5/attachment.html From skip Tue Mar 2 11:48:41 2010 From: skip (Skip Fox) Date: Tue Mar 2 11:48:41 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1003021020n3644000fx19e8e05377611ad6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1AC57C3B84F0461FBD8BB87C25C3EE0E@win.louisiana.edu> The workshop is not the problem so much as the unthinking assumptions and attitudes it tends to pass along. E.g.: "Write what you know" might have some meaning but those who would say this, in my experience, commonly only mean write only certain things that you assume you know. (How often do we see recalcitrant students, committee meetings, shit-eating colleagues, or even television in such poetry. Perhaps more today than twenty years ago but today it's somewhat fashionable today.) Or the believe that writing is a career which should service one well if, after networking and sounding a certain way you can get a position where you can teach others to write what they think they know. Then there is something one might think of as a "period style" . . actually several (we're a big country). (Better go now respond to the young creative writers in an undergraduate class. Been teaching college for almost three decades.) -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jeff Newberry Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 12:20 PM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place "Threatens" is not the same as "bores to death," Bob. Of course, you're going to draw your own conclusions, as you are wont to do. Jeff Newberry On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 5:53 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: The first step to any solution is a list of schools of poetry. I know, Jeff, I keep saying this, but I haven't bothered to for a long time since I know the idea threatens most poets. Gotta do it at least once every few years, though. --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/224cc80b/attachment.html From halvard Tue Mar 2 11:55:15 2010 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue Mar 2 11:55:15 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Sometimes it does, Jeff. I thought at the university level for forty years without one. Hal follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest collection -- http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 12:22 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > Teaching on a university level requires a terminal degree, Bob. > > If you want to be angry, at least be angry at the right people. > > Jeff Newberry, Establishment Drone > > On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> >> >> I also notice that every post to New-Poetry or elsewhere that I've seen >> that announces some position at a college for a teacher of any kind of >> creative writing requires an MFA, if not a Ph.D. >> --Bob >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > > -- > You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and > that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and > experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar > needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/68dccae8/attachment.html From chris Tue Mar 2 12:10:54 2010 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Tue Mar 2 12:10:54 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 9:22 AM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > Teaching on a university level requires a terminal degree, Bob. That might be at least as interesting to discuss. Why should a terminal degree be necessary? And while we're at it, how about dispensing with tenure too. c From junction Tue Mar 2 12:18:20 2010 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue Mar 2 12:18:20 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: References: <8CC882F40B93828-1B04-4A65@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> <731bb17a1003020808l4a46b5a7i85f2dfc90ec04564@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: God knows I'm not suggesting that there was a good old days in English departments, tho valuing work in what they felt was their assignment probably wasn't entirely crazy. Here's an anecdote. When I was living in Tucson I was asked to teach a poetry course in the U of Arizona extension program. I love teaching adults. The Creative Writing people were stuck with too few teachers for the intro poetry course, required of all CW prospects. So they told their meynie that my course would count. Which led me to talk with the guy who supervised the entry-level stuff in the department. I told him that I was going to run my class as half didactic (reading and discussing other people's work) and I didn't want my students under a disadvantage, so it would be good to know what the course usually contained. Do what you want, he told me. I persisted. I listed a half dozen poets, Donne, Blake, Wordsworth, I forget the others, from the canon. He stopped me. "We don't have them read older poets. They got that in high school." Stunning information. I mean, in Arizona? OK, so I said how about Olson Creeley etc. Wrong again. "We tend towards more substantial poets." "So what does get taught in this course." "We tend to emphasize (look of faraway rrverence) The American Voice." Aha. So what is that? "You know, Bishop, Lowell, Berrymen, Plath..." I took his advice and taught what I wanted. I won't pretend this is typical, but I haven't been astounded by the depth of knowledge of young poets who've gone through the system in anything but a slice of their contemporaries and near contemporaries and critical theory. Best, Mark (a son of Ben) At 01:17 PM 3/2/2010, you wrote: >My hand up (tacked on to Mark's post, partly because I completely >(or mostly) agree with what he said. > >Formally my teaching was lit. generally and Renaissance lit >specifically, at one point organising an introductory course in >*reading poetry, since undergraduates were arriving from highschool >apparently only having read two First World War Poets and one >Metaphysical Poet. > >I taught exactly one course on creative writing, at the >undergraduate level, for one semester, filling in (reluctantly) for >a colleague on exchange in America (though I was also, throughout, >the co-examination marker for the coursework submitted for that course). > >[Though this was also the point when I became interested in >translating poetry, on the lines of, "Don't ask anyone to do >anything you haven't at least tried to do yourself," so I ended up >translating a poem by Lorca, and a couple of years later supervising >a final year undergraduate dissertation by a student which comprised >a long collection of his Lorca translations. Bloody good they were, too.] > >That's the official side. Unofficially, I ran groups, helped >students produce magazines, talked my head off, tried to be >generally supportive, all the usual stuff that -- whine whine -- if >you have an MFA, you get paid for doing, and if you don't, you have >to do it for nothing in your spare time. > >Actually, that's only partly a joke -- the career stream I was in, >teaching about literature rather than teaching how to do it (sort >of) is I think the *only job where writing poetry is actually >counterproductive in career terms -- even bank managers are allowed >to do it. As a hobby. > >But the third (or was it the sixth or seventh?) time I got hit with >the question, first of all when I was applying for jobs and later on >when I was before a promotion review committee or something like >that, "Do you find that writing poetry *interferes with your teaching?" > >I kid you not, that was the word used every miserable time -- >"interferes". I began to get the sense that someone was trying to >tell me something. > >Basically, the job I was doing, teaching English in a (UK) >university, it would have been better for my career prospects if the >time I spent writing poetry, I'd devoted to playing golf. Come to >think of it, if I'd played golf rather than written poetry, I'd have >been *much better off. > >And don't even *start me on how the "refereed journal" criterion for >the acceptabilty of academic articles kinda sorta disadvantages >anyone who tends to write exactly the same thing, but publish it in >a poetry magazine. > >My tuppence worth. > >Robin >----- Original Message ----- >From: Mark Weiss >To: NewPoetry: Contemporary >Poetry News &Views >Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 11:56 AM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) > >Visual artists and composers have always required long periods of >study, and very few have managed to learn what they need to pursue >their art without the help of teachers. That those teachers now >function largely within an academic setting is a relatively new and >minor change. The technical information needed is still too large >for all but a very few to learn what they have to do merely by >looking at pictures or listening to music. > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/73c90d74/attachment.html From chris Tue Mar 2 12:34:00 2010 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Tue Mar 2 12:34:00 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: References: <8CC882F40B93828-1B04-4A65@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> <731bb17a1003020808l4a46b5a7i85f2dfc90ec04564@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Mark: I dropped out of an MFA program because I couldn't stand most of the other students. I never finished my MA because the lit theory was killing (and succeeded) something vital in my creative psychology. So,. for those of us who aren't in such a program and who've suffered from the deficient secondary schooling also being complained about, what do you recommend? I once asked Ron Silliman, after reading yet another complain about the deficiencies of the SoQ and the anthologies used in school, etc... what his recommended studies would be. Who should we read? What does his version of history look like outside of the reactionary blogging? Seems to me if 1/4 of the energy spent beating up MFA programs (in general, not just here and not your participation in this thread in particular) were spent sharing specifics to help some of us raised in the mainstream find our way to the best, most representative, most historically interesting stuff, the net positive effect would be much greater. c From jbalizsprince Tue Mar 2 12:48:51 2010 From: jbalizsprince (Judy Prince) Date: Tue Mar 2 12:48:51 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> Jeff, Something about the phrase "terminal degree".....the "terminal" part.....gives pause. Admittedly, I've never used the expression, nor, if I'd heard it, paid attention, but it becomes ominous in such a discussion as this. Trying to imagine who the right people are that Bob should be angry with; I should get better at score-carding. Judy the wrong person to get angry with On 2 March 2010 13:22, Jeff Newberry wrote: > Teaching on a university level requires a terminal degree, Bob. > > If you want to be angry, at least be angry at the right people. > > Jeff Newberry, Establishment Drone > > > On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > >> >> >> I also notice that every post to New-Poetry or elsewhere that I've seen >> that announces some position at a college for a teacher of any kind of >> creative writing requires an MFA, if not a Ph.D. >> --Bob >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > > -- > You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and > that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and > experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar > needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/a558111f/attachment.html From jeff.newberry Tue Mar 2 13:03:03 2010 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue Mar 2 13:03:03 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <731bb17a1003021150q5f815e19odd29799564326b0b@mail.gmail.com> Judy, I'm very familiar with the term. A quick scan of any academic job list will show multiple uses: try the Chronicle or HigherEdJobs or even the AWP job list. "Terminal" merely means "highest." There's nothing to read into. In this case, a cigar is just a cigar. These days, most academic jobs require a terminal degree, across the board, from the humanities to the hard sciences--particularly if you're teaching full-time at the university level. Sometimes, as Hal pointed out, life experience takes the place of a degree. My problem with this whole "MFA is bad" business is that it implies a bad guy: anyone who writes and/or publishes in primarily academic circles is a bad guy. These bad guys are then dismissed and painted with a broad brush as "gate keepers" who want to keep the "status quo." I've been involved in colleges and universities all of my adult life. I've not met this small-minded stereotype. Most of the teachers and colleagues I've had have been open minded about all kinds of poetry. One workshop revolved around "ruining" a text. The class produced all kinds of wonderful pieces: a friend of mine wrote some homophonic translations of Rilke. Another student photocopied sacred texts on top of one another time and again, making an odd kind of sacred palimpsest. And this experience is only of the myriad I had. Bob and I are sparring partners from way back. He likes to paint with a broad brush. I like to point out that fact. I've got nothing against old Bob. In fact, I think some of his mathemaku are really interesting. I've used them in a couple of different classes that I've taught. If you want to score card, try to score how often these kinds of discussions lead to any fruitful or useful observation. I can guess what your total will be. Jeff Establishment Drone On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 2:37 PM, Judy Prince wrote: > Jeff, > > Something about the phrase "terminal degree".....the "terminal" > part.....gives pause. Admittedly, I've never used the expression, nor, if > I'd heard it, paid attention, but it becomes ominous in such a discussion as > this. > > Trying to imagine who the right people are that Bob should be angry with; I > should get better at score-carding. > > Judy the wrong person to get angry with > > > > On 2 March 2010 13:22, Jeff Newberry wrote: > >> Teaching on a university level requires a terminal degree, Bob. >> >> If you want to be angry, at least be angry at the right people. >> >> Jeff Newberry, Establishment Drone >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> I also notice that every post to New-Poetry or elsewhere that I've seen >>> that announces some position at a college for a teacher of any kind of >>> creative writing requires an MFA, if not a Ph.D. >>> --Bob >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and >> that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and >> experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar >> needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html > > http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ > > "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/3820a82a/attachment.html From skip Tue Mar 2 13:09:17 2010 From: skip (Skip Fox) Date: Tue Mar 2 13:09:17 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <99349A832BB4488FBE2211A3C9B4F430@win.louisiana.edu> Chris, One suggestion might be: How about writing what you don't know? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/2feae2a1/attachment.html From halvard Tue Mar 2 13:12:30 2010 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue Mar 2 13:12:30 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: That gives you pause? Think about the US airbase in Okinawa that features a Terminal Nursery. Hal follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest collection -- http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Judy Prince wrote: > Jeff, > > Something about the phrase "terminal degree".....the "terminal" > part.....gives pause. Admittedly, I've never used the expression, nor, if > I'd heard it, paid attention, but it becomes ominous in such a discussion as > this. > > Trying to imagine who the right people are that Bob should be angry with; I > should get better at score-carding. > > Judy the wrong person to get angry with > > > > On 2 March 2010 13:22, Jeff Newberry wrote: > >> Teaching on a university level requires a terminal degree, Bob. >> >> If you want to be angry, at least be angry at the right people. >> >> Jeff Newberry, Establishment Drone >> >> >> On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> I also notice that every post to New-Poetry or elsewhere that I've seen >>> that announces some position at a college for a teacher of any kind of >>> creative writing requires an MFA, if not a Ph.D. >>> --Bob >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and >> that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and >> experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar >> needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html > > http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ > > "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/7f45286c/attachment.html From halvard Tue Mar 2 13:14:14 2010 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue Mar 2 13:14:14 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1003021150q5f815e19odd29799564326b0b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a1003021150q5f815e19odd29799564326b0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I never got a job because of "life experience" as far as I know. Besides, experience is usually a lousy teacher. Hal follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest collection -- http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > Judy, > > I'm very familiar with the term. A quick scan of any academic job list > will show multiple uses: try the Chronicle or HigherEdJobs or even the AWP > job list. "Terminal" merely means "highest." There's nothing to read > into. In this case, a cigar is just a cigar. These days, most academic > jobs require a terminal degree, across the board, from the humanities to the > hard sciences--particularly if you're teaching full-time at the university > level. Sometimes, as Hal pointed out, life experience takes the place of a > degree. > > My problem with this whole "MFA is bad" business is that it implies a bad > guy: anyone who writes and/or publishes in primarily academic circles is a > bad guy. These bad guys are then dismissed and painted with a broad brush > as "gate keepers" who want to keep the "status quo." I've been involved in > colleges and universities all of my adult life. I've not met this > small-minded stereotype. Most of the teachers and colleagues I've had have > been open minded about all kinds of poetry. One workshop revolved around > "ruining" a text. The class produced all kinds of wonderful pieces: a > friend of mine wrote some homophonic translations of Rilke. Another student > photocopied sacred texts on top of one another time and again, making an odd > kind of sacred palimpsest. And this experience is only of the myriad I > had. > > Bob and I are sparring partners from way back. He likes to paint with a > broad brush. I like to point out that fact. I've got nothing against old > Bob. In fact, I think some of his mathemaku are really interesting. I've > used them in a couple of different classes that I've taught. > > If you want to score card, try to score how often these kinds of > discussions lead to any fruitful or useful observation. I can guess what > your total will be. > > Jeff > Establishment Drone > > > > > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 2:37 PM, Judy Prince wrote: > >> Jeff, >> >> Something about the phrase "terminal degree".....the "terminal" >> part.....gives pause. Admittedly, I've never used the expression, nor, if >> I'd heard it, paid attention, but it becomes ominous in such a discussion as >> this. >> >> Trying to imagine who the right people are that Bob should be angry with; >> I should get better at score-carding. >> >> Judy the wrong person to get angry with >> >> >> >> On 2 March 2010 13:22, Jeff Newberry wrote: >> >>> Teaching on a university level requires a terminal degree, Bob. >>> >>> If you want to be angry, at least be angry at the right people. >>> >>> Jeff Newberry, Establishment Drone >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I also notice that every post to New-Poetry or elsewhere that I've seen >>>> that announces some position at a college for a teacher of any kind of >>>> creative writing requires an MFA, if not a Ph.D. >>>> --Bob >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and >>> that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and >>> experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar >>> needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html >> >> http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ >> >> "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and > that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and > experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar > needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/a4254107/attachment.html From c.a.b.daly Tue Mar 2 13:20:28 2010 From: c.a.b.daly (Catherine Daly) Date: Tue Mar 2 13:20:28 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: References: <8CC882F40B93828-1B04-4A65@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> <731bb17a1003020808l4a46b5a7i85f2dfc90ec04564@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I got my MFA before there was any critical theory involved, when it was discouraged in fact, and took all my theory in the English and Literature departments. "Voice" was the big thing to find and develop. It is still very much emphasized by, IMO, utterly the worst writers ever. So, there, Robin: we can't name names front channel if we do want to be in the system, but for me -- look for poets who talk about voice -- and find poets that aren't very bright. I was 23; I had been a Literary Writing major undergrad (it was actually my secondary major). I also taught a "reading poetry" course to mostly adult undergrads a few times. I don't think providing a single reading list to a group in a workshop is helpful. I think each person needs to find her own, to learn to guess what they need to learn, to learn how to make reading lists. This is why anthologies are evil. But, the days of anthologies are nearly over. Admittedly, I have always made reading lists for myself, by asking people what they liked, thought was important, etc. In workshops, I generally have reading/mini lecture that's all from the public domain/fair use. But, "all poetry and text art anywhere or all time" is a pretty huge thing, so I tend to pick 18 weeks of things that are related in some way. Then I try to relate the works that week to each other, and to the reading, even if it's "hey, this is completely different." I never teach the same writers together twice (even in lit classes). To workshops, I just bring in tons of books, and list names, schools, time periods at people. You wrote this, that's cool, it has got this aspect, have you read this and this and this? Check it out, let me know what you think. Here's my copy, return it. And I do this in class so that people who really are collecting reading recs can write stuff down too, and so everyone sees you have to read LOTS and LOTS, buy TONS of books and journals, not just a few "thin volumes." If you have a "smart classroom," you can just put a punch of names and links up right then, and everyone has it. This does tend to drive some people nuts because there's no right and wrong, no items of knowledge that I will impart to them for a small fee. The benefit is that at the end of the term, you have a bunch of writers who are writing completely differently, coming from and going to different traditions, and who feel encouraged. You can't make people have talent, but you can force them to be creative in their approach and practice, and to develop a personal taste. -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com From jeff.newberry Tue Mar 2 13:32:47 2010 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue Mar 2 13:32:47 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a1003021150q5f815e19odd29799564326b0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <731bb17a1003021220g5b8cf5e6g518694d22d40d30d@mail.gmail.com> Sorry, Hal. I must have misread your previous message. Mea culpa. Jeff On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 3:02 PM, Halvard Johnson wrote: > I never got a job because of "life experience" as far as I know. > > Besides, experience is usually a lousy teacher. > > Hal > > follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest > collection -- > > http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:50 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > >> Judy, >> >> I'm very familiar with the term. A quick scan of any academic job list >> will show multiple uses: try the Chronicle or HigherEdJobs or even the AWP >> job list. "Terminal" merely means "highest." There's nothing to read >> into. In this case, a cigar is just a cigar. These days, most academic >> jobs require a terminal degree, across the board, from the humanities to the >> hard sciences--particularly if you're teaching full-time at the university >> level. Sometimes, as Hal pointed out, life experience takes the place of a >> degree. >> >> My problem with this whole "MFA is bad" business is that it implies a bad >> guy: anyone who writes and/or publishes in primarily academic circles is a >> bad guy. These bad guys are then dismissed and painted with a broad brush >> as "gate keepers" who want to keep the "status quo." I've been involved in >> colleges and universities all of my adult life. I've not met this >> small-minded stereotype. Most of the teachers and colleagues I've had have >> been open minded about all kinds of poetry. One workshop revolved around >> "ruining" a text. The class produced all kinds of wonderful pieces: a >> friend of mine wrote some homophonic translations of Rilke. Another student >> photocopied sacred texts on top of one another time and again, making an odd >> kind of sacred palimpsest. And this experience is only of the myriad I >> had. >> >> Bob and I are sparring partners from way back. He likes to paint with a >> broad brush. I like to point out that fact. I've got nothing against old >> Bob. In fact, I think some of his mathemaku are really interesting. I've >> used them in a couple of different classes that I've taught. >> >> If you want to score card, try to score how often these kinds of >> discussions lead to any fruitful or useful observation. I can guess what >> your total will be. >> >> Jeff >> Establishment Drone >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 2:37 PM, Judy Prince > > wrote: >> >>> Jeff, >>> >>> Something about the phrase "terminal degree".....the "terminal" >>> part.....gives pause. Admittedly, I've never used the expression, nor, if >>> I'd heard it, paid attention, but it becomes ominous in such a discussion as >>> this. >>> >>> Trying to imagine who the right people are that Bob should be angry with; >>> I should get better at score-carding. >>> >>> Judy the wrong person to get angry with >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2 March 2010 13:22, Jeff Newberry wrote: >>> >>>> Teaching on a university level requires a terminal degree, Bob. >>>> >>>> If you want to be angry, at least be angry at the right people. >>>> >>>> Jeff Newberry, Establishment Drone >>>> >>>> >>>> On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> I also notice that every post to New-Poetry or elsewhere that I've seen >>>>> that announces some position at a college for a teacher of any kind of >>>>> creative writing requires an MFA, if not a Ph.D. >>>>> --Bob >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and >>>> that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and >>>> experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar >>>> needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden >>>> >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html >>> >>> http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ >>> >>> "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and >> that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and >> experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar >> needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/b7f99c87/attachment.html From jbalizsprince Tue Mar 2 13:35:19 2010 From: jbalizsprince (Judy Prince) Date: Tue Mar 2 13:35:19 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: References: <8CC882F40B93828-1B04-4A65@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> <731bb17a1003020808l4a46b5a7i85f2dfc90ec04564@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b1003021223o3ec48976j6f6c314b8d518035@mail.gmail.com> Chris, I won't be giving you want you want (specifics about the best, most representative, most historically interesting stuff), but I'll offer my fortuitous life-slice of learning some of what I have needed and wanted, which has come from dear poet friends, all met late in my life. It happens that these friends have been raised and educated, some of them at university, in the UK. Their academic and independent reading, as well as practise, in poetry challenged me. My BA and MA in English Lit and Lang at the U of Michigan were fine, very fine, but I must've needed years to reach a stage of *wanting to* read poems beyond the very few I'd thought worthy----or, rather, wanting to *find* poems I would love to read. My friends' incredible personal libraries; their ability to lovingly quote long passages from so many poems; their assessments and intense discussions about the qualities in various poems and poets; their active friendships with poets and involvement with their works; and their convincing belief that poetry is the highest kind of writing---drove me to learn. I haven't the patience to read all the works that my friends have, and tend to be impulsively judgmental about the poetry I do read, rejecting 99% of it, basking in the 1%. However, I subscribe to several poetry journals, buy poetry pamphlets, constantly read online poetry journals, keep up with the works of poets in many organisations both on the ground and online, and personally seek out poets whose works I find fascinating. Again....and again....I support any benign endeavour that encourages poets to read and write poems. That includes endeavours which are academic as well as non-academic, group and non-group, MFA and CW, at libraries, in pubs, in homes. My primary delight is in *knowing* poets, and that includes you and others on NP, POETRYETC, BritPo, WOMPO, SHAKSPER and various websites and blogs. I seldom agree with anybody about what THE BEST poetry is, but I strongly benefit from and appreciate the debates. Best, Judy On 2 March 2010 14:22, Chris Lott wrote: > Mark: > > I dropped out of an MFA program because I couldn't stand most of the > other students. I never finished my MA because the lit theory was > killing (and succeeded) something vital in my creative psychology. > > So,. for those of us who aren't in such a program and who've suffered > from the deficient secondary schooling also being complained about, > what do you recommend? > > I once asked Ron Silliman, after reading yet another complain about > the deficiencies of the SoQ and the anthologies used in school, etc... > what his recommended studies would be. Who should we read? What does > his version of history look like outside of the reactionary blogging? > > Seems to me if 1/4 of the energy spent beating up MFA programs (in > general, not just here and not your participation in this thread in > particular) were spent sharing specifics to help some of us raised in > the mainstream find our way to the best, most representative, most > historically interesting stuff, the net positive effect would be much > greater. > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/3bb9c789/attachment-0001.html From jbalizsprince Tue Mar 2 13:39:56 2010 From: jbalizsprince (Judy Prince) Date: Tue Mar 2 13:39:56 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b1003021228s18d1c0capb015ad165c5223c0@mail.gmail.com> YAWK! jbp On 2 March 2010 15:00, Halvard Johnson wrote: > That gives you pause? Think about the US airbase in Okinawa > that features a Terminal Nursery. > > Hal > > follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest > collection -- > > http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Judy Prince wrote: > >> Jeff, >> >> Something about the phrase "terminal degree".....the "terminal" >> part.....gives pause. Admittedly, I've never used the expression, nor, if >> I'd heard it, paid attention, but it becomes ominous in such a discussion as >> this. >> >> Trying to imagine who the right people are that Bob should be angry with; >> I should get better at score-carding. >> >> Judy the wrong person to get angry with >> >> >> >> On 2 March 2010 13:22, Jeff Newberry wrote: >> >>> Teaching on a university level requires a terminal degree, Bob. >>> >>> If you want to be angry, at least be angry at the right people. >>> >>> Jeff Newberry, Establishment Drone >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> I also notice that every post to New-Poetry or elsewhere that I've seen >>>> that announces some position at a college for a teacher of any kind of >>>> creative writing requires an MFA, if not a Ph.D. >>>> --Bob >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> New-Poetry mailing list >>>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and >>> that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and >>> experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar >>> needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html >> >> http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ >> >> "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/1b6da98e/attachment.html From junction Tue Mar 2 13:47:11 2010 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue Mar 2 13:47:11 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: References: <8CC882F40B93828-1B04-4A65@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> <731bb17a1003020808l4a46b5a7i85f2dfc90ec04564@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Chris: You'll forgive me if in this context this feels like a trap. If you're serious, I can certainly send you a list b/c, after I ask a couple of questions. I see no reason why the list at large should be curious about what I'd include. On the other hand, if list members wanted to send their own list of the essentials, that might be interesting. I envision it going back to Beowulf and not involving immediate contemporaries. Not for showing off, but what people have actually learned from. A living syllabus. Any takers? An aside. I was asked a similar question once. I had taught the senior-level poetry workshop for majors at UCSD. It was the end of Spring and my last office hour. One of my students came in and asked for a reading list. What kind? Everything she should have read in college but hadn't been assigned. Wow. So I said, ok, what Plato did you read. None. She was in fact discouraged from reading Plato, something about dualism. Lots of theory, tho. So we went from there. Here's what was going on. This was the brightest, most talented student in the class. She had taken a two year contract to be an English language secretary in Japan, to learn the language, and figured she'd have a lot of involuntary alone time. Picture a willowy blond, movie star gorgeous, who seemed unaware of the long trail of drooling men who followed her everywhere. I wonder how much reading she got done. Best, Mark At 02:22 PM 3/2/2010, you wrote: >Mark: > >I dropped out of an MFA program because I couldn't stand most of the >other students. I never finished my MA because the lit theory was >killing (and succeeded) something vital in my creative psychology. > >So,. for those of us who aren't in such a program and who've suffered >from the deficient secondary schooling also being complained about, >what do you recommend? > >I once asked Ron Silliman, after reading yet another complain about >the deficiencies of the SoQ and the anthologies used in school, etc... >what his recommended studies would be. Who should we read? What does >his version of history look like outside of the reactionary blogging? > >Seems to me if 1/4 of the energy spent beating up MFA programs (in >general, not just here and not your participation in this thread in >particular) were spent sharing specifics to help some of us raised in >the mainstream find our way to the best, most representative, most >historically interesting stuff, the net positive effect would be much >greater. > >c >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/3dcbdbd5/attachment.html From robin.hamilton2 Tue Mar 2 13:54:19 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue Mar 2 13:54:19 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1003021150q5f815e19odd29799564326b0b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com><47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net><731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a1003021150q5f815e19odd29799564326b0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: << If you want to score card, try to score how often these kinds of discussions lead to any fruitful or useful observation. I can guess what your total will be. Jeff Establishment Drone >> Not often, which was why I was initially reluctant to get involved in this one. Where the current thread differs from the norm of sheer recycled pub-bore type repetition of the usual points that convince no one of anything that they don't think already, is that it's generating, for once, some sort of *specifics, the range of people's involvement in MFA courses and why they value this (and most recently, which is perhaps a more important issue, what *is the proper training for a young writer?). (Unsurprising answer, from all sides, "The kind I had.") So things aren't always the same, or the same old same old different, though people frequently, and more often than not discussing the MFA, seem to think they are. As to the terminal degree, or when having a PhD was a *necessary union card for teaching at the university level in the UK, I can pretty much state exactly when it happened here. When I was an undergraduate at Glasgow in the middle to late sixties, approximately half of my teachers had PhDs, and the other half did not. Sharp boundary, and the divide fell precisely across those who were roughly forty on younger then, and those who were older. Everyone under forty had a PhD, virtually nobody over forty didn't. Now? Go figure. Dunno when the shift reached the point where *everyone teaching had to have a PhD, but it was certainly tied in with the increase in the number of candiates, "qualified" in whatever sense, applying for jobs. On one level, the "must have a PhD" was a useful first cut for winnowing down the number of applicants. But *that was the good old days (before perhaps the early nineties) -- now it's "must have a PhD" AND "a track record of already published work", which began when the Academic Research Exercise made the publication record of every single miserable university department in the country turn *directly on the quantity -- "quantity", mark you, simply quantity, no one even pretended that quality of publication came in anywhere. Only that the work, good, bad, or indifferent (as long as it couldn't be proved to be plagiarised) published in refereed journals counted. And nothing else. (Effectively -- there was usually some gesture towards "quality of teaching", but as this was usually difficult to assess, it never seemed to figure highly.) Then just when you thought things couldn't get any worse, the criteria were shifted to privilege monographs, and rule out reviews (even ones printed in a refereed etc.) completely, so at a stroke, all the bright and intelligent colleagues of mine who had once spent their time writing considered reviews of the latest scholarship gave it up as a bad job, and concentrated on the occasional article and making sure they had a monograph in the pipeline. Bingo, one of the major aspects of peer review -- scholarly work reviewed at length by those in the field competent to make a judgment on it -- vanished overnight. So don't anyone pretend that the mechanism of career advancement, and the production of writing, is somehow independent of the financial structure of the educational establishment. MFAs may or may not be a good or bad thing, but ruling out a consideration of their possible larger impact on the way in which poetry is distributed and "rewarded", who's priviledged and who's not, as a non-question, suggests a naivity bordering on the delusional. Robin (irritated yet once more) On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 2:37 PM, Judy Prince wrote: Jeff, Something about the phrase "terminal degree".....the "terminal" part.....gives pause. Admittedly, I've never used the expression, nor, if I'd heard it, paid attention, but it becomes ominous in such a discussion as this. Trying to imagine who the right people are that Bob should be angry with; I should get better at score-carding. Judy the wrong person to get angry with On 2 March 2010 13:22, Jeff Newberry wrote: Teaching on a university level requires a terminal degree, Bob. If you want to be angry, at least be angry at the right people. Jeff Newberry, Establishment Drone On Mon, Mar 1, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: I also notice that every post to New-Poetry or elsewhere that I've seen that announces some position at a college for a teacher of any kind of creative writing requires an MFA, if not a Ph.D. --Bob _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/d44426e7/attachment.html From junction Tue Mar 2 14:13:21 2010 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue Mar 2 14:13:21 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1003021150q5f815e19odd29799564326b0b@mail.gmail.co m> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a1003021150q5f815e19odd29799564326b0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Not my implication, Jeff. I understand and sympathize with the desire for stability and an income, and a job that's less soul-crushing than many. There are certainly bad guys out there (many of them women), but they'r a few, and they usually don't run the show. The problem is systemic. Thinking that any criticism of the system must be ad hominem only makes it impossible to discuss. Best, Mark >My problem with this whole "MFA is bad" business is that it implies >a bad guy: anyone who writes and/or publishes in primarily academic >circles is a bad guy. These bad guys are then dismissed and painted >with a broad brush as "gate keepers" who want to keep the "status >quo." I've been involved in colleges and universities all of my >adult life. I've not met this small-minded stereotype. Most of the >teachers and colleagues I've had have been open minded about all >kinds of poetry. One workshop revolved around "ruining" a >text. The class produced all kinds of wonderful pieces: a friend >of mine wrote some homophonic translations of Rilke. Another >student photocopied sacred texts on top of one another time and >again, making an odd kind of sacred palimpsest. And this experience >is only of the myriad I had. Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/4b8fd05c/attachment.html From junction Tue Mar 2 14:25:10 2010 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue Mar 2 14:25:10 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a1003021150q5f815e19odd29799564326b0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Precisely what I observed on this side of the Atlantic. I went to Columbia and Hopkins, two elite universities. Nevertheless, in lit depts at any rate, the ratio of phds to none was about the same as you report, presumably at Glasgow, also an elite institution. And those with doctorates had often taught for many years, as full-timers with tenure, before they got it. But they were the old guard. Of course in the States the change happened as secondary and undergraduate education was collapsing, so that one could no longer assume functional literacy. >As to the terminal degree, or when having a PhD was a *necessary >union card for teaching at the university level in the UK, I can >pretty much state exactly when it happened here. > >When I was an undergraduate at Glasgow in the middle to late >sixties, approximately half of my teachers had PhDs, and the other >half did not. Sharp boundary, and the divide fell precisely across >those who were roughly forty on younger then, and those who were >older. Everyone under forty had a PhD, virtually nobody over forty didn't. > >Now? Go figure. Dunno when the shift reached the point where >*everyone teaching had to have a PhD, but it was certainly tied in >with the increase in the number of candiates, "qualified" in >whatever sense, applying for jobs. On one level, the "must have a >PhD" was a useful first cut for winnowing down the number of applicants. > >But *that was the good old days (before perhaps the early nineties) >-- now it's "must have a PhD" AND "a track record of already >published work", which began when the Academic Research Exercise >made the publication record of every single miserable university >department in the country turn *directly on the quantity -- >"quantity", mark you, simply quantity, no one even pretended that >quality of publication came in anywhere. Only that the work, good, >bad, or indifferent (as long as it couldn't be proved to be >plagiarised) published in refereed journals counted. And nothing >else. (Effectively -- there was usually some gesture towards >"quality of teaching", but as this was usually difficult to assess, >it never seemed to figure highly.) > >Then just when you thought things couldn't get any worse, the >criteria were shifted to privilege monographs, and rule out reviews >(even ones printed in a refereed etc.) completely, so at a stroke, >all the bright and intelligent colleagues of mine who had once spent >their time writing considered reviews of the latest scholarship gave >it up as a bad job, and concentrated on the occasional article and >making sure they had a monograph in the pipeline. > >Bingo, one of the major aspects of peer review -- scholarly work >reviewed at length by those in the field competent to make a >judgment on it -- vanished overnight. Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/2b004a4a/attachment.html From chris Tue Mar 2 14:30:23 2010 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Tue Mar 2 14:30:23 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: References: <8CC882F40B93828-1B04-4A65@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> <731bb17a1003020808l4a46b5a7i85f2dfc90ec04564@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Mark: I'm totally serious. "Living syllabus" is a great term and what you describe is just what I've been looking for (and it also resonates with my day-to-day work promoting open education and collaboration, but that's an aside). I'm not necessarily seeking a prescription, but a description that represents something other than the relatively mainstream conception(s) that I am familiar with. This is not a new search for me. We've butted heads here a bit and my tastes are probably incredibly provincial compared to many here, but I've been spending a lot of time for the past 5 years or exploring outside the mainstream and my taste and understanding have grown as a result. But it's been necessarily scattershot and I've never found "the thread" historically and up into the contemporary the way I have with the smaller set of mainstream poetries. I feel like there's a kind of alternative history or weave that I can't get my mind around. So, backchannel or otherwise, I am sincerely interested in whatever you have to recommend. And I have to say, that I'm not alone in looking for this kind of guidance. Browsing the blogs and publications tends to yield a huge crop of poetry that is hard to differentiate and writing about poetry and poetics that assumes a lot of knowledge that I and many others I've talked to don't have. It's frustrating. c On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Chris: You'll forgive me if in this context this feels like a trap. If > you're serious, I can certainly send you a list b/c, after I ask a couple of > questions. I see no reason why the list at large should be curious about > what I'd include. > > On the other hand, if list members wanted to send their own list of the > essentials, that might be interesting. I envision it going back to Beowulf > and not involving immediate contemporaries. Not for showing off, but what > people have actually learned from. > > A living syllabus. > > Any takers? > > An aside. I was asked a similar question once. I had taught the senior-level > poetry workshop for majors at UCSD. It was the end of Spring and my last > office hour. One of my students came in and asked for a reading list. What > kind? Everything she should have read in college but hadn't been assigned. > Wow. So I said, ok, what Plato did you read. None. She was in fact > discouraged from reading Plato, something about dualism. Lots of theory, > tho. So we went from there. > > Here's what was going on. This was the brightest, most talented student in > the class. She had taken a two year contract to be an English language > secretary in Japan, to learn the language, and figured she'd have a lot of > involuntary alone time. Picture a willowy blond, movie star gorgeous, who > seemed unaware of the long trail of drooling men who followed her > everywhere. I wonder how much reading she got done. > > Best, > > Mark > > > At 02:22 PM 3/2/2010, you wrote: > > Mark: > > I dropped out of an MFA program because I couldn't stand most of the > other students. I never finished my MA because the lit theory was > killing (and succeeded) something vital in my creative psychology. > > So,. for those of us who aren't in such a program and who've suffered > from the deficient secondary schooling also being complained about, > what do you recommend? > > I once asked Ron Silliman, after reading yet another complain about > the deficiencies of the SoQ and the anthologies used in school, etc... > what his recommended studies would be. Who should we read? What does > his version of history look like outside of the reactionary blogging? > > Seems to me if 1/4 of the energy spent beating up MFA programs (in > general, not just here and not your participation in this thread in > particular) were spent sharing specifics to help some of us raised in > the mainstream find our way to the best, most representative, most > historically interesting stuff, the net positive effect would be much > greater. > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it."?? John Palattella in The Nation > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From AlMaginnes Tue Mar 2 14:43:45 2010 From: AlMaginnes (AlMaginnes@aol.com) Date: Tue Mar 2 14:43:45 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) Message-ID: <204a.53183a25.38beddc5@aol.com> In a message dated 3/2/2010 4:18:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, chris at chrislott.org writes: You'll forgive me if in this context this feels like a trap. Mark, methinks you take this a it too seriously. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/e9014cd5/attachment.html From skip Tue Mar 2 14:43:49 2010 From: skip (Skip Fox) Date: Tue Mar 2 14:43:49 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: "Voice"! Exactly. I've heard it spoken of it as something a writer develops and then drives about though a dozen different themes in a lifetime like a shiny sportscar through major European cities. But when they speak of the "execution of poetry," they've got it nailed. -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Catherine Daly Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 2:09 PM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) I got my MFA before there was any critical theory involved, when it was discouraged in fact, and took all my theory in the English and Literature departments. "Voice" was the big thing to find and develop. It is still very much emphasized by, IMO, utterly the worst writers ever. So, there, Robin: we can't name names front channel if we do want to be in the system, but for me -- look for poets who talk about voice -- and find poets that aren't very bright. I was 23; I had been a Literary Writing major undergrad (it was actually my secondary major). I also taught a "reading poetry" course to mostly adult undergrads a few times. I don't think providing a single reading list to a group in a workshop is helpful. I think each person needs to find her own, to learn to guess what they need to learn, to learn how to make reading lists. This is why anthologies are evil. But, the days of anthologies are nearly over. Admittedly, I have always made reading lists for myself, by asking people what they liked, thought was important, etc. In workshops, I generally have reading/mini lecture that's all from the public domain/fair use. But, "all poetry and text art anywhere or all time" is a pretty huge thing, so I tend to pick 18 weeks of things that are related in some way. Then I try to relate the works that week to each other, and to the reading, even if it's "hey, this is completely different." I never teach the same writers together twice (even in lit classes). To workshops, I just bring in tons of books, and list names, schools, time periods at people. You wrote this, that's cool, it has got this aspect, have you read this and this and this? Check it out, let me know what you think. Here's my copy, return it. And I do this in class so that people who really are collecting reading recs can write stuff down too, and so everyone sees you have to read LOTS and LOTS, buy TONS of books and journals, not just a few "thin volumes." If you have a "smart classroom," you can just put a punch of names and links up right then, and everyone has it. This does tend to drive some people nuts because there's no right and wrong, no items of knowledge that I will impart to them for a small fee. The benefit is that at the end of the term, you have a bunch of writers who are writing completely differently, coming from and going to different traditions, and who feel encouraged. You can't make people have talent, but you can force them to be creative in their approach and practice, and to develop a personal taste. -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From jeff.newberry Tue Mar 2 15:09:53 2010 From: jeff.newberry (Jeff Newberry) Date: Tue Mar 2 15:09:53 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a1003021150q5f815e19odd29799564326b0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <731bb17a1003021357m2382ae14xb6826d474898c33b@mail.gmail.com> Mark, Perhaps I overstated my case, for I didn't mean to turn the discussion down a nasty path. My implication is this: railing against the system usually requires that said system is bad--the "bad guy" I referred to. And you may be right about a "systemic" problem, but I'm such a nothing in the world of poetry that I don't even consider the "system" when I publish. As I said, I'm primarily a composition teacher. I'm evaluated each year in a few areas: public service, teaching, service to the institution. But my publishing (the little I do) means not a whit to my superiors. I write & publish because I genuinely love to write, and to be honest, I can't imagine ever *not *writing. Again, I want to be clear: I'm not dismissing your concerns. I just think that a vast majority of poets and writers write without any recognition or prize money or academic publishing credits. Many of my best friends write and publish in small journals simply because these folks *like to write, *not because they're out to gain some kind of recognition. Of course, these folks don't have academic jobs that are dependent upon their publishing. Here's my problems with these kinds of discussions: the tacit assumption that MFAs are somehow morally suspect. Many (not you) look down their noses at those who've pursued creative writing in higher education, snobbishly dismissing university-trained poets and their "cookie-cutter" poetics. These same dismissive souls cherry pick poems and point to a few popular tropes and say, "Look! Look! An 'Iowa' poem" or some such reductive nonsense. Rather than accept the writing at face value, the work is derided not on its own merits but because of who wrote it. Somehow, if you write and you teach and you publish in academic presses and journals, then you're not "pure" as a poet or writer, as though getting paid for your writing is a bad thing. Of course, I'm one of those idiots who think that you can't quantify art (or am I a nihilist? I forget). I believe that the best works of art open up into a world of mystery, beyond what is charted or measurable. If that writing comes from a workshop, who cares? Not me. I'm not in this game for the money. If I were, I'd be broker than I am now. (And if the Georgia legislature has anything to say about it, I will indeed be broke soon, but that's another thread . . . ) Best, Jeff Newberry On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 4:01 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Not my implication, Jeff. I understand and sympathize with the desire for > stability and an income, and a job that's less soul-crushing than many. > There are certainly bad guys out there (many of them women), but they'r a > few, and they usually don't run the show. The problem is systemic. Thinking > that any criticism of the system must be ad hominem only makes it impossible > to discuss. > > Best, > > Mark > > > My problem with this whole "MFA is bad" business is that it implies a bad > guy: anyone who writes and/or publishes in primarily academic circles is a > bad guy. These bad guys are then dismissed and painted with a broad brush > as "gate keepers" who want to keep the "status quo." I've been involved in > colleges and universities all of my adult life. I've not met this > small-minded stereotype. Most of the teachers and colleagues I've had have > been open minded about all kinds of poetry. One workshop revolved around > "ruining" a text. The class produced all kinds of wonderful pieces: a > friend of mine wrote some homophonic translations of Rilke. Another student > photocopied sacred texts on top of one another time and again, making an odd > kind of sacred palimpsest. And this experience is only of the myriad I > had. > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University of > California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/240d3b27/attachment.html From ccooley Tue Mar 2 15:14:05 2010 From: ccooley (Crisman Cooley) Date: Tue Mar 2 15:14:05 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound Message-ID: Let's see, Malatesta is a restaurant in NYC, right? Or is it a welding shop in Jamaica? Mussolini, I've heard of-- I believe he crafted the recent Supreme Court ruling on free speech for corporations. But Kung... I'm totally lost. Nah, Pound in _ABC_ is very crusty of course, but he doesn't say a word about "usury", etc, or any of the other really embarrassing things that diverted him. He's just talking about what he thinks a poet should read. This book is my MFA. And it's short so you can read it in like 2 weeks instead of taking 2 years. After first reading it 8 years ago, I started learning translating and now have made translations from Anglo Saxon, French, & Spanish. My translation of "The Ruin" will be published in the fall by "Ezra" magazine, my first published translation. The reading list Pound outlines became my reading list. This is one place where I think a non-Pound MFA and I might disagree: I see no reason to read Tony Hoagland, Mark Strand, or Naomi Shihab Nye until I've finished the Oresteia. That is, I'm willing to compromise, or give up altogether, on currency in order to have depth. Why should I read good books when I can read great ones? It's a crusty idea, I realize-- not good for my "career path". But since I need way more money than I can make teaching at a university (I'm not pleased about this, by the way-- I would love to teach, but the devil has other plans for me), who cares? My main concern is that today it appears that posterity is broken. But that's another conversation. *ps. The writer disavows all political and religious implications of this message. === Are his ideal scholars who would inform the state (in the person of Malatesta, Mussolini, etc.) and reintroduce the classics divorced from the academy (like Kung)? I cannot remember. -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Alan C Golding Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 10:58 AM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound "Ignorant [people] of genius are constantly rediscovering 'laws' of art which the academics had mislaid or hidden." "There is one quality which unites all great and perdurable writers, you don't NEED schools and colleges to keep 'em alive. Put them out of the curriculum, lay them in the dust of libraries, and once in every so often a chance reader, unsubsidized and unbribed, will dig them up again, put them in the light again, without asking favours." "The great savants ignore, quite often, the idiocies of the ruck of the teaching profession." -- Ezra Pound _The ABC of Reading_ Not to demur from, exactly, but to supplement or complicate Crisman's introduction of Pound into the conversation: Pound spent much of his career thinking about, addressing and hoping to transform the academy, even if that address takes the form of decades-worth of railing. From his earliest essays on (see "Raphaelite Latin") he's theorizing the (possible) place of the creative writer in teaching institutions. ABC of Reading is a textbook, first published in the US by a university press, though admittedly probably not as a realistic intervention in the textbook market. One can read Pound as a pedagogical poet who wanted to change pedagogical institutions. His rhetoric was oppositional, but he also liked (tried?) to imagine the artist-academy boundaries that he invoked as porous. Alan Teacher, of undergrads and grads, not of creative writing, at an institution with a newly established CW minor but no CW major, and with an "MA with creative thesis" option at the grad level but no MFA. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/316acd6c/attachment.html From junction Tue Mar 2 15:15:14 2010 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue Mar 2 15:15:14 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: <204a.53183a25.38beddc5@aol.com> References: <204a.53183a25.38beddc5@aol.com> Message-ID: My nature. At 04:31 PM 3/2/2010, you wrote: >In a message dated 3/2/2010 4:18:46 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, >chris at chrislott.org writes: >You'll forgive me if in this context this feels like a trap. > >Mark, methinks you take this a it too seriously. >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/5b19c5f7/attachment-0001.html From anny.ballardini Tue Mar 2 15:18:33 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue Mar 2 15:18:33 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1003021357m2382ae14xb6826d474898c33b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a1003021150q5f815e19odd29799564326b0b@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a1003021357m2382ae14xb6826d474898c33b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003021406l1b069449v7bdb16734c322fe5@mail.gmail.com> Jeff is one of the most honest contributors to this list. I do not think he has overstated his case seen the many mails back and forth and forth and forth again and again. On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 10:57 PM, Jeff Newberry wrote: > Mark, > > Perhaps I overstated my case, for I didn't mean to turn the discussion down > a nasty path. > > My implication is this: railing against the system usually requires that > said system is bad--the "bad guy" I referred to. And you may be right about > a "systemic" problem, but I'm such a nothing in the world of poetry that I > don't even consider the "system" when I publish. As I said, I'm primarily a > composition teacher. I'm evaluated each year in a few areas: public > service, teaching, service to the institution. But my publishing (the > little I do) means not a whit to my superiors. I write & publish because I > genuinely love to write, and to be honest, I can't imagine ever *not *writing. > > > Again, I want to be clear: I'm not dismissing your concerns. I just think > that a vast majority of poets and writers write without any recognition or > prize money or academic publishing credits. Many of my best friends write > and publish in small journals simply because these folks *like to write, *not > because they're out to gain some kind of recognition. Of course, these > folks don't have academic jobs that are dependent upon their publishing. > > Here's my problems with these kinds of discussions: the tacit assumption > that MFAs are somehow morally suspect. Many (not you) look down their noses > at those who've pursued creative writing in higher education, snobbishly > dismissing university-trained poets and their "cookie-cutter" poetics. > These same dismissive souls cherry pick poems and point to a few popular > tropes and say, "Look! Look! An 'Iowa' poem" or some such reductive > nonsense. Rather than accept the writing at face value, the work is derided > not on its own merits but because of who wrote it. Somehow, if you write > and you teach and you publish in academic presses and journals, then you're > not "pure" as a poet or writer, as though getting paid for your writing is a > bad thing. > > Of course, I'm one of those idiots who think that you can't quantify art > (or am I a nihilist? I forget). I believe that the best works of art open > up into a world of mystery, beyond what is charted or measurable. If that > writing comes from a workshop, who cares? Not me. I'm not in this game for > the money. If I were, I'd be broker than I am now. (And if the Georgia > legislature has anything to say about it, I will indeed be broke soon, but > that's another thread . . . ) > > Best, > Jeff Newberry > > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 4:01 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > >> Not my implication, Jeff. I understand and sympathize with the desire for >> stability and an income, and a job that's less soul-crushing than many. >> There are certainly bad guys out there (many of them women), but they'r a >> few, and they usually don't run the show. The problem is systemic. Thinking >> that any criticism of the system must be ad hominem only makes it impossible >> to discuss. >> >> Best, >> >> Mark >> >> >> My problem with this whole "MFA is bad" business is that it implies a bad >> guy: anyone who writes and/or publishes in primarily academic circles is a >> bad guy. These bad guys are then dismissed and painted with a broad brush >> as "gate keepers" who want to keep the "status quo." I've been involved in >> colleges and universities all of my adult life. I've not met this >> small-minded stereotype. Most of the teachers and colleagues I've had have >> been open minded about all kinds of poetry. One workshop revolved around >> "ruining" a text. The class produced all kinds of wonderful pieces: a >> friend of mine wrote some homophonic translations of Rilke. Another student >> photocopied sacred texts on top of one another time and again, making an odd >> kind of sacred palimpsest. And this experience is only of the myriad I >> had. >> >> Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University >> of California Press). >> http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland >> >> "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's *Random House Book of >> Twentieth Century French Poetry* has a bilingual anthology so effectively >> broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also >> created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing >> else like it." John Palattella in *The Nation* >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > You cannot tell people what to do, you can only tell them parables; and > that is what art really is, particular stories of particular people and > experience, from which each according to his own immediate and peculiar > needs may draw his own conclusion. --W.H. Auden > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/4cefa3b5/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Tue Mar 2 15:20:59 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue Mar 2 15:20:59 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: 07 - Deadline approaching fast: Colonial Latin Am Division: Call for Papers MLA 2011 In-Reply-To: <-9137127196300874173@unknownmsgid> References: <-9137127196300874173@unknownmsgid> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003021409l69c9df4cv25c2ea35ee5fc18e@mail.gmail.com> Dear colleagues: [Excuse the duplication if you have already received this call. Deadlines approaching fast: March 5 and March 10, 2010] The next MLA convention will take place in *Los Angeles on January 6-9, 2011*. The *Division of Colonial Latin American Literatures* calls for papers for the following two sessions: 1. *Visual Textualizations: Latin American Colonial Lives *: This panel seeks to explore how written and visual/iconic narratives from the colonial period interact with their verbal counterparts to convey views and perceptions of the colonial experience in Latin America. Please send one-page abstract and 2-page c.v. by *March 05 *to R. Quispe-Agnoli (quispeag at msu.edu ) 2.*Colonial Masculinities/Masculinidades colonials*: Papers exploring masculinities (i.e. ecclesiastical, military, subaltern) and their representations in colonial Latin American literature and culture; theoretical approaches to hegemonic paradigms and contestatory models welcome. One-page abstracts and 2-page c.v. by *March 10 (new!) *to Stephanie Kirk (skirk at wustl.edu ) The following is a session in collaboration (non guaranteed) with the Division of Sixteenth- and Seventeenth-Century Spanish Poetry and Prose: *Life Writing in the Early Modern Hispanic World*: Representations of self or others in any genre--picaresque, travel writing, letters, vidas--from colonial Spanish America, early modern Iberia, or both. 1-page abstracts and 2-page vitae; Nieves Romero-Di az (rdiaz at mtholyoke.edu) and Cynthia Stone (cstone at holycross.edu ) Muchos saludos, Rocio Q.-A. Chair, MLA Division of Colonial Latin American Lits. [*You are receiving this message because you have declared an interest to be informed about incoming sessions and other activities of the MLA Colonial Latin American Division. If you wish to be removed from this list, reply to this message asking to be removed*] Rocio Quispe-Agnoli Associate Professor of Hispanic St. Director Center for Integrative St. in the Arts & Humanities 305 Linton Hall Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 www.cisah.msu.edu -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/c82b07a6/attachment.html From chris Tue Mar 2 15:24:26 2010 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Tue Mar 2 15:24:26 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <99349A832BB4488FBE2211A3C9B4F430@win.louisiana.edu> References: <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> <99349A832BB4488FBE2211A3C9B4F430@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: I think that's good advice. But though they can be connected enterprises, I've essentially given up on writing-- but remain interested in becoming a better reader of-- poetry. c On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 10:57 AM, Skip Fox wrote: > Chris, > > One suggestion might be: How about writing what you don?t know? From anny.ballardini Tue Mar 2 15:26:23 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue Mar 2 15:26:23 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: References: <204a.53183a25.38beddc5@aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003021414i35e37a5eg99a64527c8fa0a70@mail.gmail.com> I teach high school, translate professionally, I have an MFA from UNO University of New Orleans besides other qualifications. -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/0aa6140f/attachment.html From amyhappens Tue Mar 2 15:35:17 2010 From: amyhappens (amy king) Date: Tue Mar 2 15:35:17 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Non-poet reads poetry! Message-ID: <650980.83711.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Political scientist, Ashok Karra, continues to support poetry (something he doesn't write) by putting his thoughts out there about specific poems (for his mostly non-poetry-reading audience!) -- pretty daring if you ask someone who rarely critiques poetry (me!). If you feel so moved, please visit and even post a note on his latest response to my poem, "State of a Nation" - thanks in advance! http://www.ashokkarra.com/2010/03/amy-king-state-of-a-nation/ Best, Amy _______ BOOK Slaves to Do These Things-- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm RANT "My Barbaric Bitch of a Yawp" -- http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2010/02/amy-king.html ESSAY "The What Else"-- http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/Archives/Winter_2009/prose/A_King.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/ce4d698b/attachment.html From amyhappens Tue Mar 2 15:37:53 2010 From: amyhappens (amy king) Date: Tue Mar 2 15:37:53 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Women artists / poets Message-ID: <178177.93641.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I don't know if I sent this here, but I sent it to a women's poetry listserv and have now second guessed myself: why shouldn't I send it to an "everyone" listserv? Looks great --- take a gander at the short trailer here - http://www.whodoesshethinksheis.net/ Cheers, Amy _______ BOOK Slaves to Do These Things-- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm RANT "My Barbaric Bitch of a Yawp" -- http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2010/02/amy-king.html ESSAY "The What Else"-- http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/Archives/Winter_2009/prose/A_King.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/cd7781dd/attachment.html From amyhappens Tue Mar 2 15:46:26 2010 From: amyhappens (amy king) Date: Tue Mar 2 15:46:26 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Women artists / poets In-Reply-To: <178177.93641.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <178177.93641.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <824398.28238.qm@web83302.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> By the way, this speaks to the discussion from awhile ago about the "numbers" of women vs. men publishing, etc. ________________________________ From: amy king I don't know if I sent this here, but I sent it to a women's poetry listserv and have now second guessed myself: why shouldn't I send it to an "everyone" listserv? Looks great --- take a gander at the short trailer here - http://www.whodoesshethinksheis.net/ Cheers, Amy _______ BOOK Slaves to Do These Things-- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm RANT "My Barbaric Bitch of a Yawp" -- http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2010/02/amy-king.html ESSAY "The What Else"-- http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/Archives/Winter_2009/prose/A_King.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/1c8a5657/attachment.html From c.a.b.daly Tue Mar 2 15:53:57 2010 From: c.a.b.daly (Catherine Daly) Date: Tue Mar 2 15:53:57 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1003021357m2382ae14xb6826d474898c33b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com> <47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a1003021150q5f815e19odd29799564326b0b@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a1003021357m2382ae14xb6826d474898c33b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: There are two volumes called "The Poet's Bookshelf" -- disclosure -- I'm in the second one -- that have lists of 5-10 books and reasons for about a total of a hundred (American) poets. http://www.bsu.edu/classes/koontz/barnwood/indbks/davis.htm http://web.mac.com/tomkoontz/Site_2/Poets_Bookshelf_II.html As in the UK, and as everyone here *seems* to be aware, there are schools with different histories, founded and continuing with different missions. They offer the same degrees, but the faculty, the students, and the work the degrees themselves involve are not the same. Sure, there are great faculty everywhere, and great student poets. But most teaching institutions are different from research institutions, and if there's a religious foundation, well, that can get a little funky in poetry; most private colleges and universities really do operate differently from most public ones. It isn't uncommon to get more than one MFA, at increasingly respected schools, or MA - MFA combo., or MFA - PhD combo. -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com From halvard Tue Mar 2 16:00:05 2010 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Tue Mar 2 16:00:05 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: He who lives only on mountaintops denies himself the pleasures of the streams and valleys. --old Chinese proverb Hal follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest collection -- http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 4:02 PM, Crisman Cooley wrote: > Let's see, Malatesta is a restaurant in NYC, right? Or is it a welding shop > in Jamaica? Mussolini, I've heard of-- I believe he crafted the recent > Supreme Court ruling on free speech for corporations. But Kung... I'm > totally lost. > > Nah, Pound in _ABC_ is very crusty of course, but he doesn't say a word > about "usury", etc, or any of the other really embarrassing things that > diverted him. He's just talking about what he thinks a poet should read. > > This book is my MFA. And it's short so you can read it in like 2 weeks > instead of taking 2 years. After first reading it 8 years ago, I started > learning translating and now have made translations from Anglo Saxon, > French, & Spanish. My translation of "The Ruin" will be published in the > fall by "Ezra" magazine, my first published translation. > > The reading list Pound outlines became my reading list. This is one place > where I think a non-Pound MFA and I might disagree: I see no reason to read > Tony Hoagland, Mark Strand, or Naomi Shihab Nye until I've finished the > Oresteia. That is, I'm willing to compromise, or give up altogether, on > currency in order to have depth. Why should I read good books when I can > read great ones? > > It's a crusty idea, I realize-- not good for my "career path". But since I > need way more money than I can make teaching at a university (I'm not > pleased about this, by the way-- I would love to teach, but the devil has > other plans for me), who cares? > > My main concern is that today it appears that posterity is broken. But > that's another conversation. > > > *ps. The writer disavows all political and religious implications of this > message. > > === > > > Are his ideal scholars who would inform the state (in the person of > Malatesta, Mussolini, etc.) and reintroduce the classics divorced from the > academy (like Kung)? I cannot remember. > > -----Original Message----- > From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu > [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Alan C Golding > Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 10:58 AM > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound > > "Ignorant [people] of genius are constantly rediscovering 'laws' of art > which the academics had mislaid or hidden." > > "There is one quality which unites all great and perdurable writers, you > don't NEED schools and colleges to keep 'em alive. Put them out of the > curriculum, lay them in the dust of libraries, and once in every so often a > chance reader, unsubsidized and unbribed, will dig them up again, put them > in the light again, without asking favours." > > "The great savants ignore, quite often, the idiocies of the ruck of the > teaching profession." > > -- Ezra Pound _The ABC of Reading_ > > Not to demur from, exactly, but to supplement or complicate Crisman's > introduction of Pound into the conversation: Pound spent much of his career > thinking about, addressing and hoping to transform the academy, even if > that > address takes the form of decades-worth of railing. From his earliest > essays on (see "Raphaelite Latin") he's theorizing the (possible) place of > the creative writer in teaching institutions. ABC of Reading is a > textbook, > first published in the US by a university press, though admittedly probably > not as a realistic intervention in the textbook market. One can read Pound > as a pedagogical poet who wanted to change pedagogical institutions. His > rhetoric was oppositional, but he also liked (tried?) to imagine the > artist-academy boundaries that he invoked as porous. > > Alan > > Teacher, of undergrads and grads, not of creative writing, at an > institution > with a newly established CW minor but no CW major, and with an "MA with > creative thesis" option at the grad level but no MFA. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/2be0f0d1/attachment.html From bobgrumman Tue Mar 2 16:49:55 2010 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue Mar 2 16:49:55 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com><47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net> <731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B8DA24A.4020806@nut-n-but.net> Jeff Newberry wrote: > Teaching on a university level requires a terminal degree, Bob. > > If you want to be angry, at least be angry at the right people. > > Jeff Newberry, Establishment Drone Believe it or not, Jeff, I felt no anger at all when I reported that "very post to New-Poetry or elsewhere that I've seen that announces some position at a college for a teacher of any kind of creative writing requires an MFA, if not a Ph.D." I was merely making an observation. --Bob From robin.hamilton2 Tue Mar 2 16:58:27 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue Mar 2 16:58:27 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: << Nah, Pound in _ABC_ is very crusty of course, but he doesn't say a word about "usury", etc, or any of the other really embarrassing things that diverted him. He's just talking about what he thinks a poet should read. This book is my MFA. And it's short so you can read it in like 2 weeks instead of taking 2 years. After first reading it 8 years ago, I started learning translating and now have made translations from Anglo Saxon, French, & Spanish. My translation of "The Ruin" will be published in the fall by "Ezra" magazine, my first published translation. >> Totally concur over Pound's _ABC of Reading_, Crisman. I'd put it way up, and a book that I learned more from than from many of my teachers. But I found it for myself, not via anything I was told to read by anyone. Anyone know if it's recommended *other than as a text on a course on Pound? It ought to be. About Mark's essentials ... I'd put Beowulf a bit of the way down the list -- I think when you come down to it, you *can live without it, and generations of English Language poets did. And Plato ... Depends on which Plato. I'd say read the Death of Socrates Dialogues (Apology, Crito, etc.), and maybe the Symposium, but other than that ... I still haven't read _The Republic_ (other than the usual juicy walls-of-the-cave bits, and frankly I have no intention of ever doing so. But here's an instance of how the Evil Web *really empowers -- if we make a recommendation, it can be followed up straight away, rather than even having to go to a library. So god bless google, and the Internet Archives, and Project Guttenberg, and all the on-line free language dictionaries, and ... Well, if you want to read the Z-text of Piers Plowman (which isn't actually that strange a thing) you still have to buy a hard copy, but that's becoming the exception. And if you want an out-of-the-way text of something at a reasonable price, it's more than likely to be available via abebooks without costing an arm and a leg. Which was how (on Mark's recommendation) I acquired the collected poems of Paul Blackburn. What we really need is a Poetry Teaching Wiki -- anyone up to setting up the mechanism for this, and getting it up and running? Robin From bobgrumman Tue Mar 2 16:59:10 2010 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue Mar 2 16:59:10 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com><47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC><4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net><731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B8DA474.9060905@nut-n-but.net> Judy Prince wrote: > Jeff, > > Something about the phrase "terminal degree".....the "terminal" > part.....gives pause. Admittedly, I've never used the expression, > nor, if I'd heard it, paid attention, but it becomes ominous in such a > discussion as this. > > Trying to imagine who the right people are that Bob should be angry > with; I should get better at score-carding. > > Judy the wrong person to get angry with I'm not sure what he meant. As I just wrote in another Important Post, I wasn't at all angry. However, I have been angry at times NOT with MFA's and PH.D.s but only with the people who hire teachers, lecturers, editors, etc., on the basis of their degrees rather than their abilities. In any field. --Bob From bobgrumman Tue Mar 2 17:03:42 2010 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue Mar 2 17:03:42 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry workshops all over the place In-Reply-To: <731bb17a1003021150q5f815e19odd29799564326b0b@mail.gmail.com> References: <1776b.662a7d5.38bd51c7@aol.com><47263447E493487D86A9E44D22A4597E@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8C3DFE.8090506@nut-n-but.net><731bb17a1003021022h6a18c46ejdaab6ef655b6cbc8@mail.gmail.com> <7db1d01b1003021137n34e99eb4x7e69025c2e851f5f@mail.gmail.com> <731bb17a1003021150q5f815e19odd29799564326b0b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B8DA584.8050903@nut-n-but.net> > > Bob and I are sparring partners from way back. He likes to paint with > a broad brush. I like to point out that fact. I've got nothing > against old Bob. In fact, I think some of his mathemaku are really > interesting. I've used them in a couple of different classes that > I've taught. Well, thanks for the the above, Jeff. > > If you want to score card, try to score how often these kinds of > discussions lead to any fruitful or useful observation. I can guess > what your total will be. I pretty much agree with that. These threads are mostly for popping off in. On the other hand, sometimes someone says something interesting--albeit more about the poetry business than about poetry. --Bob From bobgrumman Tue Mar 2 17:25:59 2010 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue Mar 2 17:25:59 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: References: <8CC882F40B93828-1B04-4A65@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com><731bb17a1003020808l4a46b5a7i85f2dfc90ec04564@mail.gmail.com>< b06d3f671003021122k3d2946c3ua6837bb32fe66ac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B8DAABF.4060307@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > Mark: > > I'm totally serious. "Living syllabus" is a great term and what you > describe is just what I've been looking for (and it also resonates > with my day-to-day work promoting open education and collaboration, > but that's an aside). Here, I have to jump in with my belief that one thing that would help a great deal is . . . a list of schools of poetry. Why? Because I can't myself imagine a "living syllabus" for the whole of poetry. I think the field has reached the point where we need several syllabuses. NOT JUST ONE THAT ENDS IN WILSHBERIA!!! (Anger for Jeff.) Or maybe one for up to 1900, then five or ten. Some such would share books. As an example, consider my book, /From Haiku To Lyriku/, such a syllabus (however clumsy and personal a one). It was my attempt to list not books but poems more or less chronologically to cover the haiku tradition from the Japanese masters to all sorts of offbeat contemporary haiku and haiku-sized poems, particularly visual haiku. I would /love/ to read a similar book about language poetry by a language poet. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/0221bbc4/attachment.html From c.a.b.daly Tue Mar 2 17:32:58 2010 From: c.a.b.daly (Catherine Daly) Date: Tue Mar 2 17:32:58 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: <4B8DAABF.4060307@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CC882F40B93828-1B04-4A65@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> <731bb17a1003020808l4a46b5a7i85f2dfc90ec04564@mail.gmail.com> <4B8DAABF.4060307@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: the tocs for the Joris / Rothenberg anthologies list Futurism, Expressionism, Dada, Surrealism, Objectivism, and Negritude the Beats, the Vienna Group, the Cobra poets and artists, the Arabic-language Tammuzi poets, the creators of a new "Concrete Poetry," the "postwar poets" of Japan, the Italian Novissimi and Avan-Guardia, the Chinese Misty Poets, and the North American Language Poets -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com From jbalizsprince Tue Mar 2 17:48:19 2010 From: jbalizsprince (Judy Prince) Date: Tue Mar 2 17:48:19 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7db1d01b1003021636l67b989b6v7f1450eaff7a2880@mail.gmail.com> Robin said: "What we really need is a Poetry Teaching Wiki -- anyone up to setting up the mechanism for this, and getting it up and running?" Excellent idea, Robin! On 2 March 2010 18:46, Robin Hamilton wrote: > << > Nah, Pound in _ABC_ is very crusty of course, but he doesn't say a word > about "usury", etc, or any of the other really embarrassing things that > diverted him. He's just talking about what he thinks a poet should read. > > This book is my MFA. And it's short so you can read it in like 2 weeks > instead of taking 2 years. After first reading it 8 years ago, I started > learning translating and now have made translations from Anglo Saxon, > French, & Spanish. My translation of "The Ruin" will be published in the > fall by "Ezra" magazine, my first published translation. > >> >>> > Totally concur over Pound's _ABC of Reading_, Crisman. I'd put it way up, > and a book that I learned more from than from many of my teachers. But I > found it for myself, not via anything I was told to read by anyone. Anyone > know if it's recommended *other than as a text on a course on Pound? It > ought to be. > > About Mark's essentials ... I'd put Beowulf a bit of the way down the list > -- I think when you come down to it, you *can live without it, and > generations of English Language poets did. > > And Plato ... Depends on which Plato. I'd say read the Death of Socrates > Dialogues (Apology, Crito, etc.), and maybe the Symposium, but other than > that ... I still haven't read _The Republic_ (other than the usual juicy > walls-of-the-cave bits, and frankly I have no intention of ever doing so. > > > But here's an instance of how the Evil Web *really empowers -- if we make a > recommendation, it can be followed up straight away, rather than even having > to go to a library. So god bless google, and the Internet Archives, and > Project Guttenberg, and all the on-line free language dictionaries, and ... > Well, if you want to read the Z-text of Piers Plowman (which isn't actually > that strange a thing) you still have to buy a hard copy, but that's becoming > the exception. And if you want an out-of-the-way text of something at a > reasonable price, it's more than likely to be available via abebooks without > costing an arm and a leg. > > Which was how (on Mark's recommendation) I acquired the collected poems of > Paul Blackburn. > > What we really need is a Poetry Teaching Wiki -- anyone up to setting up > the mechanism for this, and getting it up and running? > > Robin > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ "I can't read my library card." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/a84be20d/attachment.html From Opus40-01 Tue Mar 2 18:48:19 2010 From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole) Date: Tue Mar 2 18:48:19 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: References: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> <4B8CEE76.8010602@opus40.org> Message-ID: <4B8DBD23.6060407@opus40.org> Mark Weiss wrote: > Are your students creative writing majors? I honestly don't know..I'm an adjunct, and I'm not involved in advising or anything like that. They're undergraduates in a liberal arts program, and if they decide to go on to pursiue careers as writers, I don't think my courses will have held them back at all. > > At 05:54 AM 3/2/2010, you wrote: >> One hand up. I teach on an undergraduate level, have never taught in >> a MFA program, have taught undergraduate creative writing courses, >> generally believe that their purpose is to expose students to a >> different way of approaching, considering and experiencing >> literature, not as an apprenticeship for a professional career. >> >> David Graham wrote: >>> >>> >>> I guess my recurrent role in these threads is to note that most >>> schools don't have MFA programs, most creative writing instruction >>> in this country happens outside of such programs, and that most MFA >>> programs are not Iowa. Furthermore, most creative writing >>> instruction does not occur at the graduate level. These are facts >>> that the broad-brushers railing about the MFA/academic/"official >>> verse culture" ought to at least acknowledge. >>> >>> Just curious: can we have a show of hands as to how many >>> subscribers to NewPo are teachers? Of those, how many teach in an >>> MFA program? >>> >>> >>> ======================================== >>> David Graham >>> grahamd at ripon.edu < mailto:grahamd at ripon.edu> >>> >>> Home Page: >>> http://web.me.com/drjazz >>> >>> Poetry Library: >>> http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >>> ========================================== >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> New-Poetry mailing list >>> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >>> >> >> -- >> Tad Richards >> Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! >> http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner >> >> http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ >> http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing *The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry* (University > of California Press). > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's /Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry/ has a bilingual anthology so > effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United > States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in > English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in /The > Nation/ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From ccooley Tue Mar 2 19:29:51 2010 From: ccooley (Crisman Cooley) Date: Tue Mar 2 19:29:51 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound Message-ID: Robin: Yes, love this idea. I'll look into platform & details for setting it up and report back. From: Judy Prince Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound Robin said: "What we really need is a Poetry Teaching Wiki -- anyone up to setting up the mechanism for this, and getting it up and running?" Excellent idea, Robin! On 2 March 2010 18:46, Robin Hamilton wrote: > << > Nah, Pound in _ABC_ is very crusty of course, but he doesn't say a word > about "usury", etc, or any of the other really embarrassing things that > diverted him. He's just talking about what he thinks a poet should read. > > This book is my MFA. And it's short so you can read it in like 2 weeks > instead of taking 2 years. After first reading it 8 years ago, I started > learning translating and now have made translations from Anglo Saxon, > French, & Spanish. My translation of "The Ruin" will be published in the > fall by "Ezra" magazine, my first published translation. > >> >>> > Totally concur over Pound's _ABC of Reading_, Crisman. I'd put it way up, > and a book that I learned more from than from many of my teachers. But I > found it for myself, not via anything I was told to read by anyone. Anyone > know if it's recommended *other than as a text on a course on Pound? It > ought to be. > > About Mark's essentials ... I'd put Beowulf a bit of the way down the list > -- I think when you come down to it, you *can live without it, and > generations of English Language poets did. > > And Plato ... Depends on which Plato. I'd say read the Death of Socrates > Dialogues (Apology, Crito, etc.), and maybe the Symposium, but other than > that ... I still haven't read _The Republic_ (other than the usual juicy > walls-of-the-cave bits, and frankly I have no intention of ever doing so. > > > But here's an instance of how the Evil Web *really empowers -- if we make a > recommendation, it can be followed up straight away, rather than even having > to go to a library. So god bless google, and the Internet Archives, and > Project Guttenberg, and all the on-line free language dictionaries, and ... > Well, if you want to read the Z-text of Piers Plowman (which isn't actually > that strange a thing) you still have to buy a hard copy, but that's becoming > the exception. And if you want an out-of-the-way text of something at a > reasonable price, it's more than likely to be available via abebooks without > costing an arm and a leg. > > Which was how (on Mark's recommendation) I acquired the collected poems of > Paul Blackburn. > > What we really need is a Poetry Teaching Wiki -- anyone up to setting up > the mechanism for this, and getting it up and running? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/92d7e7af/attachment.html From ccooley Tue Mar 2 19:40:22 2010 From: ccooley (Crisman Cooley) Date: Tue Mar 2 19:40:22 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Chinese Proverb Message-ID: Hal, I grew up near the Continental Divide in Colorado, not far from the source of the CO River-- so, yeah, I know what you mean. My problem (and it is *my* problem) is that a lot of new poetry looks like Kansas to me. Date: Tue, 2 Mar 2010 16:48:21 -0600 From: Halvard Johnson > He who lives only on mountaintops denies himself the pleasures of the streams and valleys. --old Chinese proverb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/680ef820/attachment.html From robin.hamilton2 Tue Mar 2 19:56:13 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue Mar 2 19:56:13 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> ----- Original Message ----- From: Crisman Cooley To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Tuesday, March 02, 2010 9:18 PM Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound << Robin: Yes, love this idea. I'll look into platform & details for setting it up and report back. >> Brilliant, Crisman!!! If you *do set it up, I'll try and pay my dues. (I always feel guilty about not doing more on The Big Wiki -- like, at the least, I ought to contribute an entry on David Haggart -- but the interface to lodge additions/corrections/etc. always seems just that bit too fiddly to be worth the effort.) I was already thinking of a draft-start-example, playing off Mark's suggestion of "Plato" and my response, essentially, "Which Plato?" This could be elaborated -- I could defend why I'd specify the Death of Socrates and Symposium, and Mark could explain why I really ought to read The Republic. (Riposte: What about the Theatatus then, mate?). So mileage in that ... And an MFA annex with pro and contra arguments, and annotated lists, and hotlinks to actual poems, and, and ... (Hey, maybe even a treatment of metrics that mentions Dipodic Metre!) Even Bob might go for the idea. He'd be the obvious candidate to curate the Vizpo and Haiku annexes. Yeah!!! Go, boy, go!!! Robin ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ From: Judy Prince Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound Robin said: "What we really need is a Poetry Teaching Wiki -- anyone up to setting up the mechanism for this, and getting it up and running?" Excellent idea, Robin! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/e74f367f/attachment.html From bobgrumman Tue Mar 2 21:09:35 2010 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue Mar 2 21:09:35 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4B8DDF26.5030304@nut-n-but.net> Robin Hamilton wrote: > > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Crisman Cooley > *To:* new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 02, 2010 9:18 PM > *Subject:* [New-Poetry] Re: Pound > > << > Robin: Yes, love this idea. I'll look into platform & details for > setting it up and report back. > >> > > Brilliant, Crisman!!! If you *do set it up, I'll try and pay my > dues. (I always feel guilty about not doing more on The Big Wiki > -- like, at the least, I ought to contribute an entry on David > Haggart -- but the interface to lodge additions/corrections/etc. > always seems just that bit too fiddly to be worth the effort.) > > I was already thinking of a draft-start-example, playing off > Mark's suggestion of "Plato" and my response, essentially, "Which > Plato?" This could be elaborated -- I could defend why I'd > specify the Death of Socrates and Symposium, and Mark could > explain why I really ought to read The Republic. (Riposte: What > about the Theatatus then, mate?). So mileage in that ... > > And an MFA annex with pro and contra arguments, and annotated > lists, and hotlinks to actual poems, and, and ... > > (Hey, maybe even a treatment of metrics that mentions Dipodic Metre!) > > Even Bob might go for the idea. He'd be the obvious candidate to > curate the Vizpo and Haiku annexes. > > Yeah!!! Go, boy, go!!! > > Robin > I'd be willing to do something, but--chee--what I would really like would be to given a year's room and board somewhere where I could just think about how to organize something much better than Wikipoo, preferably with an assistant computer whiz. A thought: that the venture start maximally simple--having as its subject not poetry, but--say--the sonnet. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100302/f3a3ba35/attachment.html From robin.hamilton2 Tue Mar 2 22:09:21 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Tue Mar 2 22:09:21 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <4B8DDF26.5030304@nut-n-but.net> References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8DDF26.5030304@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> _____ Even Bob might go for the idea. He'd be the obvious candidate to curate the Vizpo and Haiku annexes. Yeah!!! Go, boy, go!!! Robin _____ I'd be willing to do something, but--chee--what I would really like would be to given a year's room and board somewhere where I could just think about how to organize something much better than Wikipoo, preferably with an assistant computer whiz. A thought: that the venture start maximally simple--having as its subject not poetry, but--say--the sonnet. --Bob >> Um, Bob, if you don't mind my saying so, this is rather like not only reinventing the wheel, but reinventing it square. Also why pay good money for a computer absolute professional whiz kid mavin when my understanding is that there are already templates for mini-Wikis around, which I presume Crisman will be drawing on. Also having a narrow area of concern (the sonnet) won't attract a large enough body of commentators for the homeostatic incremental mechanism to kick in. We're talking about a variant of the Delphi Effect here, sunny jim. At least I think so, nah? Other than that, Mrs. Lincoln ... I look forward to your contribution, however reluctant, with regard to VizPo. Robin _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From bobgrumman Tue Mar 2 23:40:26 2010 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Tue Mar 2 23:40:26 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><4B8DDF26 .5030304@nut-n-but.net> <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> But, Robin--Wikipoo is near-worthless. And the sonnet would attract enough people to get started and would make it easy to iron out the flaws. --Bob From chris Wed Mar 3 00:01:42 2010 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Wed Mar 3 00:01:42 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: What is being proposed here? Starting a wiki takes about 15 seconds-- I do it all the time for projects. It's not rocket science. I have 3rd graders editing wikis in minutes. Or is "wikipoo" a reference to Wikipedia and people are considering working in that space? c On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 9:32 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > But, Robin--Wikipoo is near-worthless. ?And the sonnet would attract enough > people to get started and would make it easy to iron out the flaws. > > --Bob > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From robin.hamilton2 Wed Mar 3 00:55:13 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed Mar 3 00:55:13 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><4B8DDF26.5030304@nut-n-but.net><04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: > But, Robin--Wikipoo is near-worthless. {Sorry, Bob, but the best that can be said about the above comment is that it's uninformed bullshit. It's also, if you think about it, actually a nonsense statement, like saying that "most words in French are mis-spelled."} Depends where you bite it -- the language section(s) of Wiki, in particular, are rather good, and getting better all the time, is my impression, since a lot of engaged language specialists check it out regularly. Other bits are of course utter crap, though you could say the same about virtually any encyclopaedia. And anyone who uses Wiki as a *final reference source needs their head examined. It's a starting point, and in that area getting better and better. But thats not entirely the issue. It's the Wiki model I'm suggesting, which is still sort of evolving, both as a model and in the Big Wiki itself. > And the sonnet would attract enough people to get started and would make > it easy to iron out the flaws. As to the sonnet ... Who actually *needs a Wiki on the sonnet? Seems to me that's a classic case where a simple reference to the NPEPP would more than suffice. Robin From robin.hamilton2 Wed Mar 3 01:01:35 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed Mar 3 01:01:35 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC><4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: I don't know enough about what pre-set templates for Wikis are around to make an informed comment on Chris's statement below, which was why I earlier threw the question over to the list, where Crisman picked it up. However, I'm delighted to know that the concept is percolating so far down the intellectual food chain. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Lott" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views" Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 1:49 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound > What is being proposed here? Starting a wiki takes about 15 seconds-- > I do it all the time for projects. It's not rocket science. I have 3rd > graders editing wikis in minutes. > > Or is "wikipoo" a reference to Wikipedia and people are considering > working in that space? > > c > > On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 9:32 PM, Bob Grumman > wrote: >> But, Robin--Wikipoo is near-worthless. And the sonnet would attract >> enough >> people to get started and would make it easy to iron out the flaws. >> >> --Bob From bobgrumman Wed Mar 3 04:57:16 2010 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed Mar 3 04:57:16 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><04605DDC E40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC><4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4B8E4CC8.1000505@nut-n-but.net> Chris Lott wrote: > What is being proposed here? Starting a wiki takes about 15 seconds-- > I do it all the time for projects. It's not rocket science. I have 3rd > graders editing wikis in minutes. > > Or is "wikipoo" a reference to Wikipedia and people are considering > working in that space? It's a reference to Wikipedia, which I once had great hopes for but which turned out to be no better than the Encyclopedia Britannica, which is to say, an okay reference for people wanting an idea of some subject but flawed for anyone wanting the best information available about a subject. I tried to work with Wikipedia a while back, so many of my objections to it may be out-of-date. My prime one isn't--it is that it had become peer-reviewed. Its big problem is that (so far as I know) it is either at the mercy of the irresponsible (at times psychopathically so) or it is peer-reviewed, which means pretty much closed to people like me, some of whom can make contributions of value few peer panels will bother fully investigating before rejecting. It has other flaws--or maybe it's not a wiki problem but a problem with wiki users. I'm thinking now of how poorly organized it is, in my view, which is a taxonomical problem, due to taxonophobia probably, not to a flaw in wiki. No time to discuss it further. --Bob From bobgrumman Wed Mar 3 05:07:47 2010 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed Mar 3 05:07:47 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><4B8DDF26 .5030304@nut-n-but.net><04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC><4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4B8E4F3F.5080006@nut-n-but.net> Robin Hamilton wrote: >> But, Robin--Wikipoo is near-worthless. > > {Sorry, Bob, but the best that can be said about the above comment is > that it's uninformed bullshit. I would say the same for your comment, Robin. I would agree that my statement is hyperbolic, but more or less confirmed by what you go on to say. > > As to the sonnet ... Who actually *needs a Wiki on the sonnet? Seems > to me that's a classic case where a simple reference to the NPEPP > would more than suffice. > > Robin I thought the idea was to use the wiki procedure to teach people about poetry. That assumes people who don't know about it and want to know about it. A wiki on the sonnet would be for people who don't know what a sonnet is (like Hal). But, I would hope, it would also be for people who think they know what a sonnet is but only do in the limitedest of ways. It would also be for people like me, who do know quite a bit about the sonnet but would like to learn more. However, what I'm really suggesting is not necessarily a wiki on the sonnet but a wiki on some small relatively easy subject as a start rather than throwing all kinds of things into the Wiki--and making a Wikipedia of it--i.e., a disorganized clot much like New-Poetry (which is great for casual brain-storming but not so good for serious research). --Bob From david.weinstock Wed Mar 3 05:16:50 2010 From: david.weinstock (David Weinstock) Date: Wed Mar 3 05:16:50 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <4B8E4F3F.5080006@nut-n-but.net> References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <4B8E4F3F.5080006@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <437b1e3a1003030404r6e50cdd9ua9c5878b21dd333c@mail.gmail.com> "No better than the Encyclopedia Britannica" !!! -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100303/33428a85/attachment.html From bobgrumman Wed Mar 3 06:17:38 2010 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed Mar 3 06:17:38 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <437b1e3a1003030404r6e50cdd9ua9c5878b21dd333c@mail.gmail.com> References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <4B8E4F3F.5080006@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a1003030404r6e50cdd9ua9c5878b21dd333c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B8E5F9F.3070709@nut-n-but.net> David Weinstock wrote: > "No better than the Encyclopedia Britannica" !!! Well, maybe it /is/ better than the Encyclopedia Britannica--but not by much. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100303/5b22ed75/attachment.html From robin.hamilton2 Wed Mar 3 07:12:08 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed Mar 3 07:12:08 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <4B8E5F9F.3070709@nut-n-but.net> References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC><4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net><4B8E4F3F.5080006@nut-n-but.net><437b1e3a1003030404r6e50cdd9ua9c5878b21dd333c@mail.gmail.com> <4B8E5F9F.3070709@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <80FAD16E8049499AA4050A55035EDBF6@RobinLaptopPC> The only serious (i.e. thorough and documented) study that I've come across -- and this was some (relatively, in Web terms) time ago, focusing on the scientific side of Wiki, found that it was a case of pretty much 50/50 between the two in terms of accuracy and coverage, with a slight edge marginally in favour of Wiki. However, Wiki incorporates a dynamic which allows it to expand and improve, the Encyclopaedia Britannica as far as I know doesn't. The OED seems to be part way between the two, user input heavily moderated (which might fit Bob's vision of the negativity of peer review). An obvious point is that Wiki is only as good as the people who contribute -- in some areas (language, say, and Shakespeare) it's pretty good, in others, it's inadequate, and in the area of (current) politics, the Wiki people don't seem yet to have solved the problem of self-interested accounts of the material under discussion. As for Bob's reply to me -- well, whichever one of us is talking bullshit, I'm not sure that we were finally that far apart when Bob expanded his own comment. Though one specific thing Bob sees as negative, I'd see as positive -- what he calls the peer review system, which seems to me to at least begin to address the problem of "weighting" or something, not all posts to Wiki being equal alas. (I've also not come across this exclusion myself, certainly not in the Mad Exclusive Self-Interested Scholars sense, but then I've never engaged with it as much as I ought to, partly because of what would be my serious objection, that the interface to lodge material and corrections is seriously fiddly. OK if you do it full time, and endure the learning curve, but for the Occasional User ... Well, at least for this one, seriously off-putting. Bob, have you examined the VizPo side of it, or tried to engage with this? I'd have thought that would be right down your alley. To be honest, this isn't something that I've gone to Wiki for myself. Hm, might check out what it has to say on Concrete Poetry, as a text case.) So to Bob's description, I'd say simply, "Yes, but ..." As to (narrow focus) sonnet vs (broad focus) teaching poetry on The Embryonic New Poetry Wiki, no reason why it shouldn't contain both. But, as Mrs. Beaton so famously said, let's first catch our chicken. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: Bob Grumman To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 8:09 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound David Weinstock wrote: "No better than the Encyclopedia Britannica" !!! Well, maybe it is better than the Encyclopedia Britannica--but not by much. --Bob ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100303/2916fe44/attachment.html From amyhappens Wed Mar 3 07:16:25 2010 From: amyhappens (amy king) Date: Wed Mar 3 07:16:25 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: References: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> <4B8CEE76.8010602@opus40.org> Message-ID: <465700.61043.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Interesting line-up, cris. How did you all decide on who to invite? And where is the archive for Meshworks - is it available to the public? Thanks, Amy ________________________________ From: cris cheek This spring we will host post_moot 2 and the list of participants incoming right now is as follows: Stan Apps, Oana Avasilichioaei, Mike Basinski, Holly Bass, John M. Bennett, Black Took Collective, Sean Bonney, Tammy Brown, Mairead Byrne, Sh? Cage, cris cheek, Daniel Citro, Alejandro Crawford, Maria Damon, Ian Davidson, Ryan Downey, Alan Golding, Nada Gordon, K. Lorraine Graham, Duriel Harris, Carla Harryman, Jeff Hilson, Jen, Hofer, William R. Howe, Jade Hudson, Christine Hume, Peter Jaeger, Mark Jeffery, Bonnie Jones, Pierre Joris, Adeena Karasick, Brian Kincaid, Rodney Koenecke, Jose Luna, Dawn Lundy-Martin, Mel Nichols, Hoa Nguyen, Chris Mann, Monica Mody, K. Silem Mohammad, Laura Moriarty, Judd Morrissey, Erin Moure, Tom Orange, Jessica Ponto, Luke Roberts, Jaime Robles, Stephen Rodefer, Ric Royer, Ken Rumble, Linda Russo, Lisa Samuels, Standard Schaefer, Jonathan Skinner, Danny Snelson, Todd Seabrook, Jessica Smith, Rod Smith, Kate Sopko, Fiona Templeton, Rodrigo Toscano, Laurence Upton, Chris Vitiello, Catherine Wagner, Mark Wallace, Dana Ward, Barrett Watten, Brian Whitener, Steve Willey, Tyrone Williams, Ronaldo Wilson i dunno. i think we have something interesting going on. We also have the MESHWORKS online archive of videotaped readings that is slowly growing into a serious resource . . . -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100303/bb29352b/attachment.html From amyhappens Wed Mar 3 07:22:00 2010 From: amyhappens (amy king) Date: Wed Mar 3 07:22:00 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] M(ighty) F(eeble) A(rgument) In-Reply-To: <4B8CEE76.8010602@opus40.org> References: <3F3A4FC6-54BB-4F0E-A511-6F22A36E829A@ripon.edu> <4B8CEE76.8010602@opus40.org> Message-ID: <762374.29142.qm@web83303.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I teach at a community college. This fact, once presented, helps me discern who is worth hanging with at AWP. Tiers of degrees, teaching or attending, a good writer does not make. As someone surely has pointed out, it does help one learn about other writers and with the 'business' of making connections. G'morning, Amy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100303/3551e17b/attachment.html From amyhappens Wed Mar 3 07:26:54 2010 From: amyhappens (amy king) Date: Wed Mar 3 07:26:54 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Reviewers wanted In-Reply-To: <4B8C885B.3010301@opus40.org> References: <8CC87AEED8844DD-5F64-4045@webmail-d037.sysops.aol.com> <4B8C885B.3010301@opus40.org> Message-ID: <8880.94168.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> May I risk embarrassing Tad and thank him for his public support evidenced in little text footprints all over the internet? Consistently so... I am interested in comments from you -- thanks, Tad! And Anny, I see her words of support (& her publication of so many of us) around every internet bend... thanks, Anny! Amy ________________________________ From: TheOldMole I just got it -- read it -- will gladly post my comments on Amazon, although I don't know who else is much interested in a review from me. I liked the book a lot. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100303/1728f8e2/attachment.html From junction Wed Mar 3 07:28:17 2010 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed Mar 3 07:28:17 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <80FAD16E8049499AA4050A55035EDBF6@RobinLaptopPC> References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <4B8E4F3F.5080006@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a1003030404r6e50cdd9ua9c5878b21dd333c@mail.gmail.com> <4B8E5F9F.3070709@nut-n-but.net> <80FAD16E8049499AA4050A55035EDBF6@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: I'm a little lost here. Wasn't the goal to create lists of poetry in English that the various of us think essential because we've loved/learned from it? Wiki is just a tool to reproduce the results. I strongly recommend that we save contemporary poetry for another set of lists. For one thing, if I were to list contemporary work I think essential some members of this list would be on it and others not. I'm usually recklessly outspoken, but really. My own taste would be for the radically pared-down. I personally wouldn't include Browning, for instance, not that I don't like a lot of the work, but it hasn't changed my life or my writing. And to hell with anyone who thinks the list reflects personal quirks. That's the point, no? Best, Mark At 08:59 AM 3/3/2010, you wrote: >??? >The only serious (i.e. thorough and documented) >study that I've come across -- and this was some >(relatively, in Web terms) time ago, focusing on >the scientific side of Wiki, found that it was a >case of pretty much 50/50 between the two in >terms of accuracy and coverage, with a slight >edge marginally in favour of Wiki. However, >Wiki incorporates a dynamic which allows it to >expand and improve, the Encyclopaedia Britannica >as far as I know doesn't. The OED seems to be >part way between the two, user input heavily >moderated (which might fit Bob's vision of the negativity of peer review). > >An obvious point is that Wiki is only as good as >the people who contribute -- in some areas >(language, say, and Shakespeare) it's pretty >good, in others, it's inadequate, and in the >area of (current) politics, the Wiki people >don't seem yet to have solved the problem of >self-interested accounts of the material under discussion. > >As for Bob's reply to me -- well, whichever one >of us is talking bullshit, I'm not sure that we >were finally that far apart when Bob expanded >his own comment. Though one specific thing Bob >sees as negative, I'd see as positive -- what he >calls the peer review system, which seems to me >to at least begin to address the problem of >"weighting" or something, not all posts to Wiki being equal alas. > >(I've also not come across this exclusion >myself, certainly not in the Mad Exclusive >Self-Interested Scholars sense, but then I've >never engaged with it as much as I ought to, >partly because of what would be my serious >objection, that the interface to lodge material >and corrections is seriously fiddly. OK if you >do it full time, and endure the learning curve, >but for the Occasional User ... Well, at least >for this one, seriously off-putting. Bob, have >you examined the VizPo side of it, or tried to >engage with this? I'd have thought that would >be right down your alley. To be honest, this >isn't something that I've gone to Wiki for >myself. Hm, might check out what it has to say >on Concrete Poetry, as a text case.) > >So to Bob's description, I'd say simply, "Yes, but ..." > >As to (narrow focus) sonnet vs (broad focus) >teaching poetry on The Embryonic New Poetry >Wiki, no reason why it shouldn't contain both. > >But, as Mrs. Beaton so famously said, let's first catch our chicken. > >Robin > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Bob Grumman >To: >NewPoetry: >Contemporary Poetry News &Views >Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 8:09 AM >Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound > >David Weinstock wrote: >>"No better than the Encyclopedia Britannica" !!! >Well, maybe it is better than the Encyclopedia Britannica--but not by much. > >--Bob > > >---------- >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100303/3fbede78/attachment.html From junction Wed Mar 3 07:36:11 2010 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed Mar 3 07:36:11 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <4B8E4F3F.5080006@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a1003030404r6e50cdd9ua9c5878b21dd333c@mail.gmail.com> <4B8E5F9F.3070709@nut-n-but.net> <80FAD16E8049499AA4050A55035EDBF6@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: I suspect that lists will differentiate, at least until recent generations, more by what they exclude than by what they include. The standard canon wasn't all that far off. At 09:16 AM 3/3/2010, you wrote: >I'm a little lost here. Wasn't the goal to >create lists of poetry in English that the >various of us think essential because we've >loved/learned from it? Wiki is just a tool to reproduce the results. > >I strongly recommend that we save contemporary >poetry for another set of lists. For one thing, >if I were to list contemporary work I think >essential some members of this list would be on >it and others not. I'm usually recklessly outspoken, but really. > >My own taste would be for the radically >pared-down. I personally wouldn't include >Browning, for instance, not that I don't like a >lot of the work, but it hasn't changed my life >or my writing. And to hell with anyone who >thinks the list reflects personal quirks. That's the point, no? > >Best, > >Mark > >At 08:59 AM 3/3/2010, you wrote: >>??? >>The only serious (i.e. thorough and documented) >>study that I've come across -- and this was >>some (relatively, in Web terms) time ago, >>focusing on the scientific side of Wiki, found >>that it was a case of pretty much 50/50 between >>the two in terms of accuracy and coverage, with >>a slight edge marginally in favour of >>Wiki. However, Wiki incorporates a dynamic >>which allows it to expand and improve, the >>Encyclopaedia Britannica as far as I know >>doesn't. The OED seems to be part way between >>the two, user input heavily moderated (which >>might fit Bob's vision of the negativity of peer review). >> >>An obvious point is that Wiki is only as good >>as the people who contribute -- in some areas >>(language, say, and Shakespeare) it's pretty >>good, in others, it's inadequate, and in the >>area of (current) politics, the Wiki people >>don't seem yet to have solved the problem of >>self-interested accounts of the material under discussion. >> >>As for Bob's reply to me -- well, whichever one >>of us is talking bullshit, I'm not sure that we >>were finally that far apart when Bob expanded >>his own comment. Though one specific thing Bob >>sees as negative, I'd see as positive -- what >>he calls the peer review system, which seems to >>me to at least begin to address the problem of >>"weighting" or something, not all posts to Wiki being equal alas. >> >>(I've also not come across this exclusion >>myself, certainly not in the Mad Exclusive >>Self-Interested Scholars sense, but then I've >>never engaged with it as much as I ought to, >>partly because of what would be my serious >>objection, that the interface to lodge material >>and corrections is seriously fiddly. OK if you >>do it full time, and endure the learning curve, >>but for the Occasional User ... Well, at least >>for this one, seriously off-putting. Bob, have >>you examined the VizPo side of it, or tried to >>engage with this? I'd have thought that would >>be right down your alley. To be honest, this >>isn't something that I've gone to Wiki for >>myself. Hm, might check out what it has to say >>on Concrete Poetry, as a text case.) >> >>So to Bob's description, I'd say simply, "Yes, but ..." >> >>As to (narrow focus) sonnet vs (broad focus) >>teaching poetry on The Embryonic New Poetry >>Wiki, no reason why it shouldn't contain both. >> >>But, as Mrs. Beaton so famously said, let's first catch our chicken. >> >>Robin >> >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: Bob Grumman >>To: >>NewPoetry: >>Contemporary Poetry News &Views >>Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 8:09 AM >>Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound >>David Weinstock wrote: >>>"No better than the Encyclopedia Britannica" !!! >>Well, maybe it is better than the Encyclopedia Britannica--but not by much. >>--Bob >> >> >>---------- >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of >Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). >http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > >"Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's >Random House Book of Twentieth Century French >Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively >broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside >the United States and also created a superb >collection of foreign poems in English. There is >nothing else like it." John Palattella in The >Nation >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100303/8a852a76/attachment-0001.html From bobgrumman Wed Mar 3 08:10:11 2010 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed Mar 3 08:10:11 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <80FAD16E8049499AA4050A55035EDBF6@RobinLaptopPC> References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><04605DDC E40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC><4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net><4B8E4F3 F.5080006@nut-n-but.net><437b1e3a1003030404r6e50cdd9ua9c5878b21dd333c@mail.gmail.com><4B8E5F9F.3070709@nut-n-but.net> <80FAD16E8049499AA4050A55035EDBF6@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4B8E79FF.1050000@nut-n-but.net> Robin Hamilton wrote: > The only serious (i.e. thorough and documented) study that I've come > across -- and this was some (relatively, in Web terms) time ago, > focusing on the scientific side of Wiki, found that it was a case of > pretty much 50/50 between the two in terms of accuracy and coverage, > with a slight edge marginally in favour of Wiki. However, Wiki > incorporates a dynamic which allows it to expand and improve, the > Encyclopaedia Britannica as far as I know doesn't. The OED seems to > be part way between the two, user input heavily moderated (which might > fit Bob's vision of the negativity of peer review). > > An obvious point is that Wiki is only as good as the people who > contribute -- in some areas (language, say, and Shakespeare) it's > pretty good, in others, it's inadequate, and in the area of (current) > politics, the Wiki people don't seem yet to have solved the problem of > self-interested accounts of the material under discussion. > > As for Bob's reply to me -- well, whichever one of us is talking > bullshit, I'm not sure that we were finally that far apart when Bob > expanded his own comment. Though one specific thing Bob sees as > negative, I'd see as positive -- what he calls the peer review system, > which seems to me to at least begin to address the problem of > "weighting" or something, not all posts to Wiki being equal alas. Oh, I'm in favor of peer-review the way I'm in favor of Wilshberia; I just want a lot more than it. > > (I've also not come across this exclusion myself, certainly not in the > Mad Exclusive Self-Interested Scholars sense, but then I've never > engaged with it as much as I ought to, partly because of what would be > my serious objection, that the interface to lodge material and > corrections is seriously fiddly. OK if you do it full time, and > endure the learning curve, but for the Occasional User ... Well, at > least for this one, seriously off-putting. Bob, have you examined the > VizPo side of it, or tried to engage with this? I'd have thought that > would be right down your alley. To be honest, this isn't something > that I've gone to Wiki for myself. Hm, might check out what it has to > say on Concrete Poetry, as a text case.) > I can't remember if I ever investigated what Wiki has about vizpo. I did get involved with what it had a few years ago about haiku, and didn't think much of it--although I was quoted for a while in the official entry; may still be. I've used it at times, but found that whenever I looked up anything to do with one of my specialties, what I found seemed lame. And I was much annoyed when the policy of no discrimination was changed. > So to Bob's description, I'd say simply, "Yes, but ..." > > As to (narrow focus) sonnet vs (broad focus) teaching poetry on The > Embryonic New Poetry Wiki, no reason why it shouldn't contain both. > > But, as Mrs. Beaton so famously said, let's first catch our chicken. > > Robin It will be an interesting experiment. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100303/8e604c79/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Wed Mar 3 08:11:31 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed Mar 3 08:11:31 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Reviewers wanted In-Reply-To: <8880.94168.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <8CC87AEED8844DD-5F64-4045@webmail-d037.sysops.aol.com> <4B8C885B.3010301@opus40.org> <8880.94168.qm@web83305.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003030659x7fbd7f87v408b3550daacf33e@mail.gmail.com> :-) my pleasure, thank you Amy. Anny On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 3:14 PM, amy king wrote: > May I risk embarrassing Tad and thank him for his public support evidenced > in little text footprints all over the internet? Consistently so... > > I am interested in comments from you -- thanks, Tad! > > And Anny, I see her words of support (& her publication of so many of us) > around every internet bend... thanks, Anny! > > Amy > > ------------------------------ > *From:* TheOldMole > > I just got it -- read it -- will gladly post my comments on Amazon, > although I don't know who else is much interested in a review from me. I > liked the book a lot. > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100303/6759eb83/attachment.html From robin.hamilton2 Wed Mar 3 08:16:02 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed Mar 3 08:16:02 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC><4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net><4B8E4F3F.5080006@nut-n-but.net><437b1e3a1003030404r6e50cdd9ua9c5878b21dd333c@mail.gmail.com><4B8E5F9F.3070709@nut-n-but.net><80FAD16E8049499AA4050A55035EDBF6@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: How about partitioning -- controversial vs. non-controversial (if there is such a thing), say, or informational vs. [something else]? The Big Wiki seems to be directed towards a correct consensus judgement, which is OK in some ways, but does mean that you end up with only one view -- a passage can be changed, replaced, reinstated (ad infinitum), but there's no layering. Actually, a Poetry Wiki might exactly model itself on what Big Wiki *doesn't include, or direct towards that when necessary -- "If you want to know the dates of birth and death of X and what she wrote, go here." Or even generate a commentary on Big Wiki. Part of it is about (it seems to me) organising the input of information. There is, for example, a hell of a lot of material on the Mudcat website with regard to (a certain type of) folksong, but the structure of the site makes it almost impossible to get anything serious out of it, at least without a hell of a lot of effort. Possibilities, possibilities, all gods chickuns got possibilities ... Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: Mark Weiss To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Wednesday, March 03, 2010 9:16 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound I'm a little lost here. Wasn't the goal to create lists of poetry in English that the various of us think essential because we've loved/learned from it? Wiki is just a tool to reproduce the results. I strongly recommend that we save contemporary poetry for another set of lists. For one thing, if I were to list contemporary work I think essential some members of this list would be on it and others not. I'm usually recklessly outspoken, but really. My own taste would be for the radically pared-down. I personally wouldn't include Browning, for instance, not that I don't like a lot of the work, but it hasn't changed my life or my writing. And to hell with anyone who thinks the list reflects personal quirks. That's the point, no? Best, Mark -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100303/4e5ffd5d/attachment.html From chris Wed Mar 3 09:11:22 2010 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Wed Mar 3 09:11:22 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <4B8E4F3F.5080006@nut-n-but.net> <437b1e3a1003030404r6e50cdd9ua9c5878b21dd333c@mail.gmail.com> <4B8E5F9F.3070709@nut-n-but.net> <80FAD16E8049499AA4050A55035EDBF6@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 5:16 AM, Mark Weiss wrote: > I'm a little lost here. Wasn't the goal to create lists of poetry in English > that the various of us think essential because we've loved/learned from it? > Wiki is just a tool to reproduce the results. That's what *I* am looking for. The poetry wiki whatever seems to be taking on a life of its own. Which is cool, but doesn't achieve my own selfish ends. c From chris Wed Mar 3 09:14:18 2010 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Wed Mar 3 09:14:18 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 2, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > I don't know enough about what pre-set templates for Wikis are around to > make an informed comment on Chris's statement below, which was why I earlier > threw the question over to the list, where Crisman picked it up. > > However, I'm delighted to know that the concept is percolating so far down > the intellectual food chain. My professional work is centered around social and collaborative technologies in education. Wikis are big for collaborating, process writing, living documents, etc. I'm no tech determinist-- wikis are just a means to an end. I hope the idea takes off, but I'm just looking for guidance... c From bircumplus Wed Mar 3 09:37:43 2010 From: bircumplus (David Bircumshaw) Date: Wed Mar 3 09:37:43 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><4B8DDF26.5030304@nut-n-but.net><04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <494505.82544.qm@web28503.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> >As to the sonnet ...? Who actually *needs a Wiki on the sonnet?? Seems to me that's a classic case where a simple reference to the NPEPP would more than suffice. Robin< Hey Rob, just in passing, but I was at a reading in November where someone (who is doing an MA in Creative Writing) intoduced a sonnet with comments that she had to do this?at her tutor's behest so she'd looked up the sonnet on Wikipedia to find out about it ... ?David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com ________________________________ From: Robin Hamilton To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Wed, 3 March, 2010 7:43:02 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound > But, Robin--Wikipoo is near-worthless. {Sorry, Bob, but the best that can be said about the above comment is that it's uninformed bullshit.? It's also, if you think about it, actually a nonsense statement, like saying that "most words in French are mis-spelled."} Depends where you bite it -- the language section(s) of Wiki, in particular, are rather good, and getting better all the time, is my impression, since a lot of engaged language specialists check it out regularly. Other bits are of course utter crap, though you could say the same about virtually any encyclopaedia. And anyone who uses Wiki as a *final reference source needs their head examined.? It's a starting point, and in that area getting better and better. But thats not entirely the issue.? It's the Wiki model I'm suggesting, which is still sort of evolving, both as a model and in the Big Wiki itself. > And the sonnet would attract enough people to get started and would make it easy to iron out the flaws. As to the sonnet ...? Who actually *needs a Wiki on the sonnet?? Seems to me that's a classic case where a simple reference to the NPEPP would more than suffice. Robin _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100303/1dcfcc7c/attachment.html From c.a.b.daly Wed Mar 3 09:56:23 2010 From: c.a.b.daly (Catherine Daly) Date: Wed Mar 3 09:56:23 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: the academia jobs wiki is on wikia, which is very simple http://www.wikia.com/Wikia if you're frustrated that a wikipedia article isn't as good as you know you could make it -- well, that's no one's fault but your own, since you're supposed to log in and write a better article the trick is to come up with a way to do the topics sounds more like a mapping exercise than something linear http://www.thebrain.com/ however, as a straw outline before I start work teaching poetry wiki I. background 1. utility of teaching traditional forms a. list of forms and poems to use to teach them -- prosody resources -- poetics resources b. a list of poems and how they work and don't vis a vis form 2. utility of teaching other works vs. student work a. who else to teach and why 1) the canon in English 2) the Classics 3) contemporary work a) anthologies b) individual books of poems b. ways to discuss student work 3. content a. relationship to other works b. experience/phenomenology c. ideas, material culture, critical theory 4. utility of exercises, craft work, assignments a. sample exercises b. sample carft work c. sample assignments 5. reference works, grammar, punctuation, syntax II. syllabi 1. standards, grading, evaluation, comment 2. reading and writing requirements 3. in class critique 4. other III. outcomes a. publication -- groups of poems -- submissions -- chapbooks -- manuscripts --audio -- video b. other poetry groups c. self assignment d. inspiration/talent -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com From robin.hamilton2 Wed Mar 3 09:56:34 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed Mar 3 09:56:34 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC><4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> > My professional work is centered around social and collaborative > technologies in education. Wikis are big for collaborating, process > writing, living documents, etc. > > I'm no tech determinist-- wikis are just a means to an end. I hope the > idea takes off, but I'm just looking for guidance... > > c Concur entirely, Chris, and looks as if you know more than me about the nuts and bolts in this area. Wiki as a tool for managing collaboration, perhaps? I think I keep on coming back to the Big Wiki mostly because its (with whatever hesitations and qualifications) *successful. So let's build on a model of proved success. For me Wiki provides a model of success, whereas blogs, at least as they stand at the moment, are pretty much of a total dead end when it comes to managing, collaborating, and focusing. Glorified diaries, most of them, for all of me, and if I want to read an op-ed column, I'd open the pages of the NYT. Ah, done it again -- told myself I'd try not to be *gratuitously offensive. OK, add to the above negative comment on blogs, "present company excepted." Robin From bobgrumman Wed Mar 3 11:26:09 2010 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed Mar 3 11:26:09 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wiki In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><04605DDC E40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC><4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4B8EA7F1.6020301@nut-n-but.net> Catherine Daly wrote: > the academia jobs wiki is on wikia, which is very simple > http://www.wikia.com/Wikia > > if you're frustrated that a wikipedia article isn't as good as you > know you could make it -- well, that's no one's fault but your own, > since you're supposed to log in and write a better article > Easier said than done. I found it difficult a few years ago when I tried to improve a Wiki entry on E. E. Cummings. Then some goof improved my improvement out of the text. I noticed then that there's no guarantee that some article you write will pass the peer review. --Bob. > the trick is to come up with a way to do the topics > > sounds more like a mapping exercise than something linear > http://www.thebrain.com/ > > however, as a straw outline before I start work > > teaching poetry wiki > > I. background > 1. utility of teaching traditional forms > a. list of forms and poems to use to teach them > -- prosody resources > -- poetics resources > b. a list of poems and how they work and don't vis a vis form > 2. utility of teaching other works vs. student work > a. who else to teach and why > 1) the canon in English > 2) the Classics > 3) contemporary work > a) anthologies > b) individual books of poems > b. ways to discuss student work > 3. content > a. relationship to other works > b. experience/phenomenology > c. ideas, material culture, critical theory > 4. utility of exercises, craft work, assignments > a. sample exercises > b. sample carft work > c. sample assignments > > 5. reference works, grammar, punctuation, syntax > > > II. syllabi > 1. standards, grading, evaluation, comment > 2. reading and writing requirements > 3. in class critique > 4. other > > III. outcomes > a. publication > -- groups of poems > -- submissions > -- chapbooks > -- manuscripts > --audio > -- video > b. other poetry groups > c. self assignment > d. inspiration/talent > From bobgrumman Wed Mar 3 11:33:45 2010 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed Mar 3 11:33:45 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><04605DDC E40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC><4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net><4B8E4F3 F.5080006@nut-n-but.net><437b1e3a1003030404r6e50cdd9ua9c5878b21dd333c@mail.gmail.com><4B8E5F9F.3070709@nut-n-but.net><80FAD16E8 049499AA4050A55035EDBF6@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4B8EA9B6.80605@nut-n-but.net> Robin Hamilton wrote: > How about partitioning -- controversial vs. non-controversial (if > there is such a thing), say, or informational vs. [something else]? Among my ideas long mentioned here and elsewhere would be four levels of information. Everything would be peer reviewed, then divided into three categories: peer-accepted, peer-rejected and peer-condemned. The last would be incomprehensible, clearly irrational or untrue material. The middle one would simply be material not up to academic standards for some reason. My fourth level would consist of what reader, by voting, find the most interesting from the other three levels. A user could have various search options: all levels, just one, or some combination of two or three. The real trick would be to devise s system of tagging or indexing, and that in the case of poetry would require TAH DAH a list of schools of poetry. Among much else. --Bob > > The Big Wiki seems to be directed towards a correct consensus > judgement, which is OK in some ways, but does mean that you end up > with only one view -- a passage can be changed, replaced, reinstated > (ad infinitum), but there's no layering. > > Actually, a Poetry Wiki might exactly model itself on what Big Wiki > *doesn't include, or direct towards that when necessary -- "If you > want to know the dates of birth and death of X and what she wrote, go > here." Or even generate a commentary on Big Wiki. > > Part of it is about (it seems to me) organising the input of > information. There is, for example, a hell of a lot of material on > the Mudcat website with regard to (a certain type of) folksong, but > the structure of the site makes it almost impossible to get anything > serious out of it, at least without a hell of a lot of effort. > > Possibilities, possibilities, all gods chickuns got possibilities ... > > Robin > > ----- Original Message ----- > *From:* Mark Weiss > *To:* NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views > > *Sent:* Wednesday, March 03, 2010 9:16 AM > *Subject:* Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound > > I'm a little lost here. Wasn't the goal to create lists of poetry > in English that the various of us think essential because we've > loved/learned from it? Wiki is just a tool to reproduce the results. > > I strongly recommend that we save contemporary poetry for another > set of lists. For one thing, if I were to list contemporary work I > think essential some members of this list would be on it and > others not. I'm usually recklessly outspoken, but really. > > My own taste would be for the radically pared-down. I personally > wouldn't include Browning, for instance, not that I don't like a > lot of the work, but it hasn't changed my life or my writing. And > to hell with anyone who thinks the list reflects personal quirks. > That's the point, no? > > Best, > > Mark > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100303/1d262abd/attachment.html From bobgrumman Wed Mar 3 11:49:05 2010 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed Mar 3 11:49:05 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><04605DDC E40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC><4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net><4B8E4F3 F.5080006@nut-n-but.net><437b1e3a1003030404r6e50cdd9ua9c5878b21dd333c@mail.gmail.com><4B8E5F9F.3070709@nut-n-but.net><80FAD16E8 049499AA4050A55035EDBF6@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4B8EAD4F.4070408@nut-n-but.net> Robin Hamilton wrote: > How about partitioning -- controversial vs. non-controversial (if > there is such a thing), say, or informational vs. [something else]? Follow-up idea: make it easy for each user to have a search engine made that would go only to entries the user approved. Or that a group of users (the peers, for instance) approved. Another user could use any such search engine he wanted, so someone familiar with and approving of Ron Sillimans' writings might use his search engine rather than mine. You could even have search engines that only search for search engines of a certain type--if a list of schools of poetry, for example, were available. Ultimately, there's my old idea, a variation on which I got published in /American Book Review/ long ago as a guest editorial, where a user answers a questionnaire (as at a dating service) and is sent to search engines on the basis of his answers. --Bob G. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100303/06f884e9/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Wed Mar 3 12:16:05 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed Mar 3 12:16:05 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Henry James and the Poetics of Duplicity Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003031104n86d5b40j2c4dd27e21189992@mail.gmail.com> CALL FOR PAPERS 2010 *The second international conference of The European Society of Jamesian Studies* *22, 23 October 2010* *The American University of Paris, *6 rue du Colonel Combe, *75007 Paris.* * Henry James and the Poetics of Duplicity * ?Inquities in such a country somehow always made pictures? (?A London Life?, *Complete *Tales, Vol. VII, Leon Edel ed.p. 88). Pondering over the contrast between the picturesque serenity of an old dower-house and the scandalous custom of the expropriation of the widow it embodied , the American heroine of the story entitled ?A London Life? expresses her unfavourable judgment of English institutions but is also overwhelmed and puzzled by the sense of a ?*curious duplicity (in the literal meaning of the word)*? : ?She had often been struck with it before - with that perfection of machinery which can still at certain times make English life go on of itself with a stately rhythm long after there is corruption within it? (?A London Life?, *Complete Tales,* Leon Edel ed., p.105). Figures of duplicity abound in Henry James?s writings, both in form and contents, fiction and non -fiction, disrupting the established order, the normative vision or the canonic genre. ?Successful duplicity? characterizes some of James?s achievements in the domain of short fiction ? the way some *nouvelles* or ?novels intensely compressed? managed to ?masquerade? as anecdotes to be accepted as ?good? short stories, ?heroically? dissimulating their ?capital?. (Preface to Vol. XVI ot the New York Edition, *Literary Criticism * II, p. 1240). The art of ?duplicity? is also part of the lesson of Balzac, and other supposedly canonic realist writers whose complex vision ?washes us successively with the warm wave of the near and the familiar? and the tonic shock of the far and the strange.(pr?face to vol. II, *Literary Criticism*, p. 1060). Duplicity also pertains to the ghostly and the uncanny effect, the double register of representations embroidering ?the stange and sinister? on ?the very type of the normal and easy? (preface to vol. XVII , *Literary Criticism*, p. 1264). We propose to examine the multiple facets of Henry James?s art of duplicity in both fiction and non-fiction, not forgetting the aesthetic borderlands where text and paratext coalesce, the clandestine figure of the author, ?marking off?, as Foucault would have it, ?the edges of the text?. (? What is an Author ? ?, in *Textual Strategies*., J.H. Harrari ed., Cornell UP, 1979, p.147) Annick Duperray, Universit? de Provence, annick.duperray at free.fr Adrian Harding, Universit? de Provence & American University of Paris, aharding at aup.fr Dennis Tredy, Universit? de Paris 3 (Sorbonne Nouvelle) dennis.tredy at wanadoo.fr *Please send proposals (300 words maximum,) to **Annick.duperray at free.fr* & *aharding at aup.fr* *. Deadline 1 June 2010.* * * Working languages : English or French -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100303/3bca2036/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Wed Mar 3 12:18:16 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed Mar 3 12:18:16 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Buffalo Bill and Europe Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003031106k50286541uc8259bf9b8dbffa5@mail.gmail.com> *The Papers of William F Cody at Buffalo Bill Historical Center and the* *Department of Modern Languages: Centre for Translation and Intercultural Studies present the First International Cody Studies Conference* * * *Buffalo Bill and Europe *is the first in a series of international conferences being sponsored by * * *The Papers of William F. Cody**, *a project of the McCracken Research Library at the Buffalo Bill Historical Center, Cody, Wyoming. The aim of the project is to bring together William F. Cody and his legendary persona, Buffalo Bill, in a digital archive and associated texts, to form the most authoritative collection of its kind and, in doing so, to provide a breadth and depth of information offering an invaluable record of late nineteenth- and early-twentieth century American national development that has not previously been available in a single source. *The Papers of William F. Cody **will *therefore offer both specialist researchers and a wider audience an unequaled opportunity to see - through the vision of Buffalo Bill - the expansion and growth of the American West. This conference also marks the launch of the associated texts, which will be published by the University of Nebraska Press in two series: *Cody Papers*, comprising primary and key contemporary secondary sources; and *Cody Studies *, comprising scholarly studies on William F. Cody and his work. * * *?Making these papers available to the public gives us added insight into this fascinating man who has long been identified with our great state. Buffalo Bill's larger-than-life persona and his restless, roaming spirit made him a legend in his own time and a elebrated folk hero today. With this collection, the Buffalo Bill Historical Center continues to broaden our understanding of Buffalo Bill's character and to expand its role as a key center of study of the American West."* ?*Dave Freudenthal,* *Governor of Wyoming* * * *Contact: *Professional Development Unit, University of Strathclyde, 76 Southbrae Drive, Glasgow, G13 1PP Tel: +44 (0)141 950 3033 / Fax: +44 (0)141 950 3210 / Email: ashley.jackson at strath.ac.uk 0900 - 0920 Registration 0920 - 0940 Welcome and Introduction ? City of Glasgow 0940 - 1020 *Advance Work: Art and Advertising in Buffalo Bill?s Wild West* Michelle Delaney, Smithsonian Institution 1020 - 1100 *Pulp Fiction and the Making of Buffalo Bill, *Brett Flehinger, Harvard University 1100 - 1120 Morning break 1120 - 1200 *The Wild West Side of American Existence: Buffalo Bill and Theodore Roosevelt as Cultural Ambassadors of the American Frontier Experience, *Jeremy Johnston, Northwest College 1200 - 1240 *Four Centuries of the Native Exploration of Europe, From Diego Col?n to Short Bull,*Larry Cebula, Eastern Washington University 1240 - 1340 Lunch 1340 - 1420 *Nationalism in a Transnational Context: The Making of America in Cody?s ?The Wild West in England? *Frank Christianson, Brigham Young University 1420 - 1500 *The Wild West in Europe and the Funding of Cody?s Investments in the West, *John Rumm, Buffalo Bill Historical Center 1500 - 1520 Afternoon break 1520 - 1600 *The Reception of Buffalo Bill?s Wild West in Barcelona (1889-90) and Trieste (1906),*Chris Dixon*, *University of Strathclyde 1600 - 1640 ?*And Still He Rides?? Transnational Celebrity and the Death of Buffalo Bill*, Gretchen Adams, Texas Tech University 1640 - 1700 Plenary and evening instructions On the Thursday Evening there will be an *Inaugural Reception *for the *Cody Papers Series *and the *Cody Studies Series *being published by University of Nebraska Press in conjunction with *The Papers of William F Cody *project, featuring the *European Book Launch *of Chris Dixon?s new edition of Charles E Griffin?s *Four Years in Europe with Buffalo Bill*. * * *Conference Programme* *Thursday 3rd June 2010* 0930 - 0940 Welcome ? University of Strathclyde 0940 - 1025 *Cody and the Curriculum, *Maryanne Andrus and Kurt Graham, Buffalo Bill Historical Center 1025 - 1110 *William F. Cody and the Digital Frontier, *Douglas Seefeldt, Brent Rogers and Jason Heppler, University of Nebraska-Lincoln 1110 - 1130 Morning Break 1130 - 1230 Keynote Address: *Buffalo Bill and the Paris World's Fair of 1889,* Jill Jonnes, Author of *Eiffel?s Tower* 1230 - 1330 Lunch 1330 - 1530 Travel to Evening Venue 1530 - 1630 Round Table with Students 1630 - 1700 Plenary and evening instructions On the Friday evening there will be a Conference Dinner with live entertainment provided by *Cowboy Celtic*. [Limited number of places, additional fee applies] * * * * *Friday 4th June 2010* *Buffalo Bill and Europe* *Application Form* Surname: ???????????????.. Forename: ??.???????????????.?. Organisation: ??????????????????????????????????????...?? Job Title: ???????????????????????????????????????..??.... Address: ????????????????????????????????????????...?? ????????????????????????????????????????????..?.?. ????????????????????????????????????????????...??. Tel: ???????. Fax: ???????. Email: ???.?????????????..?. *Special Needs/Dietary Requirements* If you have any dietary or accessibility requirements, please detail below: ??????????????????????????????????????????.???.?. *Conference Fees* Delegates - ?10 Dinner - ?50 (BBHC Members) Delegates - Free Dinner - ?30 I enclose a cheque for ??.. made payable to the University of Strathclyde (drawn on a British Bank) or invoice me at the above address or debit fee from the following credit/debit card: (charges - 1.2% visa/mastercard - 3.3% amex - 2.95% diners club - no charge for debit cards) Credit/Debit Card: Visa Mastercard Amex D.Club Visa Debit (please tick) Card Number Valid ?.../?... Expiry ?.../?... Card Holder?s Name: ????........................................................................................................................ (as shown on card) Signature of Card Holder: ?............................................................................................................................ Cardholders Statement Address: ?................................................................ Postcode: ...................... *Please send completed application forms to: *Ashley Jackson, Professional Development Unit, University of Strathclyde, 76 Southbrae Drive, Glasgow, G13 1PP Tel: +44 (0)141 950 3033 Fax: +44 (0)141 950 3210 Email: ashley.jackson at strath.ac.uk ------------------------------ -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100303/8375302b/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Wed Mar 3 12:22:40 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed Mar 3 12:22:40 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?windows-1252?q?=93Poets_and_Publishers=3A_Circula?= =?windows-1252?q?ting_Avant-Garde_Poetry_=281945-2010=29=94?= Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003031111h719d34ep839952779ad36131@mail.gmail.com> *Call for Papers (international conference, Universit? du Maine, Le Mans, France, 14-16 October 2010)* * ?Poets and Publishers: Circulating Avant-Garde Poetry (1945-2010)?* In the second half of the 20th century and the first decade of the 21st, the material conditions of avant-garde poetry?s circulation have come to the attention of critics. With the development of reader-response theory, research about the poets? ways of informing the larger public of their experiments has come to encompass technical considerations, economic, social and political preoccupations. Small presses?not the vanity presses of former times?thus became the laboratories of the publishing world, picking up on the latest avant-garde movements. How do these publishers, and the poets who entrust their works to them, contribute to poetic innovation in a publishing context marked by commercial decline of the book and the poem alike? To what extent do small presses convey aesthetic initiatives that would otherwise remain ?readerless?? Could one talk, along with American poet Barrett Watten of a ?systemic de-totalization? bringing about new configurations of the poetic landscape into networks and archipelagoes? We are inviting papers that will risk answers to these questions in the context of a wider reflection on the publishing world, its margins and its objects, notably poetic texts inspired and shaped by the recent advances of sociology, philosophy and cultural studies. The aim is a global assessment of the circulation of avant-garde poetry. 300-word proposals in either English, French or Spanish to H?l?ne AJI (Universit? du Maine, France, Helene.Aji at univ-lemans.fr) and Manuel BRITO (Universidad de La Laguna, Canary Islands, Spain, mbrito at ull.es) by 31 March 2010. -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100303/d49708c0/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Wed Mar 3 12:27:15 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed Mar 3 12:27:15 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] =?windows-1252?q?Text_and_Context=3A_Toni_Morrison?= =?windows-1252?q?=92s_Life_and_Work_=28essay_collection=29=2E?= Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003031115w2c21fc69x764e3f2c0104fb88@mail.gmail.com> >From: Ana Nunes [mailto:Ana.Nunes at ucd.ie ] Call for Papers: Text and Context: Toni Morrison?s Life and Work (essay collection). In 2004, Morrison was commissioned to write forewords to a new edition of her novels. In these Morrison, a writer who normally refutes the confluence between autobiography and creative work, describes her writing process as made up of research, imagination, and memory. The main objective of this project is to examine Morrison?s writing in terms of her life and times and help to locate Morrison?s work in the context a life dedicated not only to writing, but also to editing and publishing, teaching, social criticism and political activism. Contributions are currently being sought for a forthcoming collection of essays exploring the ways Morrison?s life has informed both her writing and her perspective on critical aspects such as race, class, and gender. If you are interested in being a part of this project, please forward a 300-word abstract by April 20th, 2010. The abstract submission should contain the author?s name, institution, and the working title of the proposed essay. Submitted manuscripts should be original work, not concurrently submitted to any other publication. Final essays will be due by August 20th, 2010. The length of a submitted paper should be between 20-25 pages. Please send your proposal and a brief bio to ana.nunes at fl.uc.pt Dr Ana Nunes Instituto de Estudos Norte-Americanos Faculdade de Letras University of Coimbra Largo da Porta F?rrea 3004-530 Coimbra Portugal -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100303/e13dc8cf/attachment.html From chris Wed Mar 3 13:49:29 2010 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Wed Mar 3 13:49:29 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 7:44 AM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > So let's build on a model of proved success. ?For me Wiki provides a model > of success, whereas blogs, at least as they stand at the moment, are pretty > much of a total dead end when it comes to managing, collaborating, and > focusing. ?Glorified diaries, most of them, for all of me, and if I want to > read an op-ed column, I'd open the pages of the NYT. > > Ah, done it again -- told myself I'd try not to be *gratuitously offensive. > ?OK, add to the above negative comment on blogs, "present company > excepted." Blogs are certainly not the best place for the kind of collaborative activity it sounds like might happen here... I find a lot of compelling stuff out there in blogland, but it has taken me a while to find those that fit me, and the result is a constantly evolving set. And if I just surfed 'old school' to each one in my browser hoping for new content, etc. it would drive me crazy. That's what Google Reader and other such applications were made for. c From bobgrumman Wed Mar 3 14:29:00 2010 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed Mar 3 14:29:00 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><04605DDC E40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC><4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4B8ED2CB.4090509@nut-n-but.net> Robin Hamilton wrote: >> My professional work is centered around social and collaborative >> technologies in education. Wikis are big for collaborating, process >> writing, living documents, etc. >> >> I'm no tech determinist-- wikis are just a means to an end. I hope the >> idea takes off, but I'm just looking for guidance... >> >> c > > Concur entirely, Chris, and looks as if you know more than me about > the nuts and bolts in this area. Wiki as a tool for managing > collaboration, perhaps? I think I keep on coming back to the Big Wiki > mostly because its (with whatever hesitations and qualifications) > *successful. > > So let's build on a model of proved success. For me Wiki provides a > model of success, whereas blogs, at least as they stand at the moment, > are pretty much of a total dead end when it comes to managing, > collaborating, and focusing. Glorified diaries, most of them, for all > of me, and if I want to read an op-ed column, I'd open the pages of > the NYT. > > Ah, done it again -- told myself I'd try not to be *gratuitously > offensive. OK, add to the above negative comment on blogs, > "present company excepted." > > Robin Poop on you, anyway, Robin. Blogs are not s'posed to be anything other than op/ed, although they can be. A near-perfect search engine could make a first-rate Wiki out of what's out there in blogville. To be my usual arrogant self, I do believe that five to ten of my 2000 or so blog entries present valuable information that is nowhere else available, period. But, to be a little less arrogant about it, I believe the same is true about a rare few of others' blog entries--and, prepare to go goggle-eyed, certain rare entries of many people to discussion groups like New-Poetry. --Blogabobber From junction Wed Mar 3 15:07:14 2010 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed Mar 3 15:07:14 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: Let's by all means make this as complex as possible. How about whoever wants to makes a list, all the lists are collated, and the name of each person who suggested a given poet appear after the poet's name? Everything as much as posible to be read aloud. For a start, and very much off the top of my head, and confining myself entirely to English (and one translation so enshrined in the language that it passes for English), with absolutely no attempt at inclusiveness or political correctness, just what's actually been most important to me as a writer, even if there's stuff I admire as much but I haven't internalized the same way. Chaucer, Troilus and the Canterbury Tales. The Pearl Poet, Gawain and the Green Knight Langland, Piers Plowman B-text Any good collection of middle english lyrics. The above in the original. There are lots of versions with unfamiliar words glossed in the margin or below the text. It takes a very little time to figure out the vowel shift, and there are recordings that will act as tutorials. Note that you'll probably be laughed at in the wilderness of Wirral for sounding like a Londoner, but do you really care? Whyatt Sidney Montague Spencer--the sonnets and the Epithalamion Shakespeare Ben Jonson Donne Traherne Herrick Herbert A good anthology of Elizabethan lyric A good anthology of the ballads. Old Testament, King James version. Think of it as early 17th century English. And it doesn't matter for our purposes if it's inaccurate in places. All of it except for Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Chronicles. Milton, especially Lycidas and the three great late works Marvell Dryden, Annus Mirabilis, Absalom, MacFlecknoe, versions of Chaucer, The Conquest of Granada Otway, Venice Preserv'd Rochester Pope, Epistle to Arbuthnot Swift Smart, Psalm to David and Jubilate Agno Sam Johnson, London Burns Blake Wordworth thru 1810ish Coleridge Clare Keats, the odes Hopkins Tennyson, chunks of In Memoriam Whitman, start with Crossing Brooklyn Ferry Dickinson Meredith, "Love in a Valley" Yeats Ford Maddox Ford, Buckshee Pound, the translations, Cathay, big chunks of the Cantos Williams Stevens Reznikoff Oppen Niedecker Olson, Maximus (the theory stuff, esp Projective Verse and Human Universe, too) Duncan, The Opening of the Field Creeley (need convincing to read all of him? Start with "The Finger" in Pieces) Spicer Wieners, Hotel Wentley Poems, Asylum Poems, Ace of Pentacles, Pressed Wafer, "We Were There!" Blackburn Schwerner Note that only the dead are included as a matter of policy, which accounts for the lack of contemporary Irish, English, Canadians and Australians. And that I'm aware that there are few women and no people of color. If I had been born later or differently the list would probably be different. This is not a record of who I wish I'd imbibed when they would have stuck, but who I did. Best, Mark PS I've probably left out 20 poets who were crucial to my education. At 03:37 PM 3/3/2010, you wrote: >On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 7:44 AM, Robin Hamilton > wrote: > > So let's build on a model of proved success. For me Wiki provides a model > > of success, whereas blogs, at least as they stand at the moment, are pretty > > much of a total dead end when it comes to managing, collaborating, and > > focusing. Glorified diaries, most of them, for all of me, and if I want to > > read an op-ed column, I'd open the pages of the NYT. > > > > Ah, done it again -- told myself I'd try not to be *gratuitously offensive. > > OK, add to the above negative comment on blogs, "present company > > excepted." > >Blogs are certainly not the best place for the kind of collaborative >activity it sounds like might happen here... > >I find a lot of compelling stuff out there in blogland, but it has >taken me a while to find those that fit me, and the result is a >constantly evolving set. And if I just surfed 'old school' to each one >in my browser hoping for new content, etc. it would drive me crazy. >That's what Google Reader and other such applications were made for. > >c > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100303/5ba020ce/attachment.html From leroymoore Wed Mar 3 15:25:01 2010 From: leroymoore (Leroy Moore) Date: Wed Mar 3 15:25:01 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Please post Sins Invalid' New Program & Poetry Workshop in San Francisco, CA Message-ID: <9A80E4CB-A03E-42BD-9A8D-8AB8B087FEDC@sinsinvalid.org> Hello Poetry listserv members How are you? Sins Invalid is really excited about our new program, Artists In Resident, AIR. We would love to share it with you and your readers. Below are documents (pdf format) describing AIR and our upcoming PoemSong workshop. All taking place in sunny/foggy San Francisco, CA USA. We hope you can share this with your readers. If your readers are interested in applying to AIR, we can email you or them the application. Thanks so much. -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: AIR Description.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 55146 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100303/c32335c6/AIRDescription-0001.pdf -------------- next part -------------- -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: PoemSongAnnouncement.pdf Type: application/pdf Size: 42106 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100303/c32335c6/PoemSongAnnouncement-0001.pdf -------------- next part -------------- Peace, Leroy Moore Community Relations Director, Sins Invalid http://www.sinsinvalid.org From Opus40-01 Wed Mar 3 15:33:50 2010 From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole) Date: Wed Mar 3 15:33:50 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Wiki In-Reply-To: <4B8EA7F1.6020301@nut-n-but.net> References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><04605DDC E40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC><4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <4B8EA7F1.6020301@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4B8EE118.8040307@opus40.org> I've written a few Wiki entries, and edited a number of others, including the one on Donald Justice. The only trouble I had was in editing the entry on my stepfather, Harvey Fite -- they rejected my edit on the grounds that I was a relative. I pointed out that I was the leading authority on the subject, and that all the sources they were referencing were based on interviews with me. This went back and forth a few times, but ultimately they accepted it. Outside of that, no problems. Bob Grumman wrote: > Catherine Daly wrote: >> the academia jobs wiki is on wikia, which is very simple >> http://www.wikia.com/Wikia >> >> if you're frustrated that a wikipedia article isn't as good as you >> know you could make it -- well, that's no one's fault but your own, >> since you're supposed to log in and write a better article >> > Easier said than done. I found it difficult a few years ago when I > tried to improve a Wiki entry on E. E. Cummings. Then some goof > improved my improvement out of the text. I noticed then that there's > no guarantee that some article you write will pass the peer review. > > --Bob. > >> the trick is to come up with a way to do the topics >> >> sounds more like a mapping exercise than something linear >> http://www.thebrain.com/ >> >> however, as a straw outline before I start work >> >> teaching poetry wiki >> >> I. background >> 1. utility of teaching traditional forms >> a. list of forms and poems to use to teach them >> -- prosody resources >> -- poetics resources >> b. a list of poems and how they work and don't vis a vis form >> 2. utility of teaching other works vs. student work >> a. who else to teach and why >> 1) the canon in English >> 2) the Classics >> 3) contemporary work >> a) anthologies >> b) individual books of poems >> b. ways to discuss student work >> 3. content >> a. relationship to other works >> b. experience/phenomenology >> c. ideas, material culture, critical theory >> 4. utility of exercises, craft work, assignments >> a. sample exercises >> b. sample carft work >> c. sample assignments >> >> 5. reference works, grammar, punctuation, syntax >> >> >> II. syllabi >> 1. standards, grading, evaluation, comment >> 2. reading and writing requirements >> 3. in class critique >> 4. other >> >> III. outcomes >> a. publication >> -- groups of poems >> -- submissions >> -- chapbooks >> -- manuscripts >> --audio >> -- video >> b. other poetry groups >> c. self assignment >> d. inspiration/talent >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From junction Wed Mar 3 16:27:42 2010 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed Mar 3 16:27:42 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] List addenda Message-ID: Dorn Blaser Rexroth Stephen Jonas >Chaucer, Troilus and the Canterbury Tales. >The Pearl Poet, Gawain and the Green Knight >Langland, Piers Plowman B-text >Any good collection of middle english lyrics. > >The above in the original. There are lots of versions with >unfamiliar words glossed in the margin or below the text. It takes a >very little time to figure out the vowel shift, and there are >recordings that will act as tutorials. Note that you'll probably be >laughed at in the wilderness of Wirral for sounding like a Londoner, >but do you really care? > >Whyatt >Sidney >Montague >Spencer--the sonnets and the Epithalamion >Shakespeare >Ben Jonson >Donne >Traherne >Herrick >Herbert >A good anthology of Elizabethan lyric >A good anthology of the ballads. >Old Testament, King James version. Think of it as early 17th century >English. And it doesn't matter for our purposes if it's inaccurate >in places. All of it except for Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Chronicles. >Milton, especially Lycidas and the three great late works >Marvell >Dryden, Annus Mirabilis, Absalom, MacFlecknoe, versions of Chaucer, >The Conquest of Granada >Otway, Venice Preserv'd >Rochester >Pope, Epistle to Arbuthnot >Swift >Smart, Psalm to David and Jubilate Agno >Sam Johnson, London >Burns >Blake >Wordworth thru 1810ish >Coleridge >Clare >Keats, the odes >Hopkins >Tennyson, chunks of In Memoriam >Whitman, start with Crossing Brooklyn Ferry >Dickinson >Meredith, "Love in a Valley" >Yeats >Ford Maddox Ford, Buckshee >Pound, the translations, Cathay, big chunks of the Cantos >Williams >Stevens >Reznikoff >Oppen >Niedecker >Olson, Maximus (the theory stuff, esp Projective Verse and Human >Universe, too) >Duncan, The Opening of the Field >Creeley (need convincing to read all of him? Start with "The Finger" >in Pieces) >Spicer >Wieners, Hotel Wentley Poems, Asylum Poems, Ace of Pentacles, >Pressed Wafer, "We Were There!" >Blackburn >Schwerner Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100303/fd392c76/attachment.html From bobgrumman Wed Mar 3 17:00:53 2010 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Wed Mar 3 17:00:53 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><04605DDC E40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC><4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net><6157160638C3 4D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4B8EF666.7090907@nut-n-but.net> Mark Weiss wrote: > Let's by all means make this as complex as possible. I'm not talking about this wiki, but about one that would be of value--the one that I previously said I'd like a paid year to work out. --Bob From chris Wed Mar 3 17:42:38 2010 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Wed Mar 3 17:42:38 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: Thanks, Mark! I hope you won't mind some specific questions as they come. I know education's a lifetime thing, but I may need to prioritize a bit in terms of specific works by specific poets. c On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 12:55 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > Let's by all means make this as complex as possible. How about whoever wants > to makes a list, all the lists are collated, and the name of each person who > suggested a given poet appear after the poet's name? > > Everything as much as posible to be read aloud. > > For a start, and very much off the top of my head, and confining myself > entirely to English (and one translation so enshrined in the language that > it passes for English), with absolutely no attempt at inclusiveness or > political correctness, just what's actually been most important to me as a > writer, even if there's stuff I admire as much but I haven't internalized > the same way. > > Chaucer, Troilus and the Canterbury Tales. > The Pearl Poet, Gawain and the Green Knight > Langland, Piers Plowman B-text > Any good collection of middle english lyrics. > > The above in the original. There are lots of versions with unfamiliar words > glossed in the margin or below the text. It takes a very little time to > figure out the vowel shift, and there are recordings that will act as > tutorials. Note that you'll probably be laughed at in the wilderness of > Wirral for sounding like a Londoner, but do you really care? > > Whyatt > Sidney > Montague > Spencer--the sonnets and the Epithalamion > Shakespeare > Ben Jonson > Donne > Traherne > Herrick > Herbert > A good anthology of Elizabethan lyric > A good anthology of the ballads. > Old Testament, King James version. Think of it as early 17th century > English. And it doesn't matter for our purposes if it's inaccurate in > places. All of it except for Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Chronicles. > Milton, especially Lycidas and the three great late works > Marvell > Dryden, Annus Mirabilis, Absalom, MacFlecknoe, versions of Chaucer, The > Conquest of Granada > Otway, Venice Preserv'd > Rochester > Pope, Epistle to Arbuthnot > Swift > Smart, Psalm to David and Jubilate Agno > Sam Johnson, London > Burns > Blake > Wordworth thru 1810ish > Coleridge > Clare > Keats, the odes > Hopkins > Tennyson, chunks of In Memoriam > Whitman, start with Crossing Brooklyn Ferry > Dickinson > Meredith, "Love in a Valley" > Yeats > Ford Maddox Ford, Buckshee > Pound, the translations, Cathay, big chunks of the Cantos > Williams > Stevens > Reznikoff > Oppen > Niedecker > Olson, Maximus (the theory stuff, esp Projective Verse and Human Universe, > too) > Duncan, The Opening of the Field > Creeley (need convincing to read all of him? Start with "The Finger" in > Pieces) > Spicer > Wieners, Hotel Wentley Poems, Asylum Poems, Ace of Pentacles, Pressed Wafer, > "We Were There!" > Blackburn > Schwerner > > Note that only the dead are included as a matter of policy, which accounts > for the lack of contemporary Irish, English, Canadians and Australians. And > that I'm aware that there are few women and no people of color. If I had > been born later or differently the list would probably be different. This is > not a record of who I wish I'd imbibed when they would have stuck, but who I > did. > > Best, > > Mark > > PS I've probably left out 20 poets who were crucial to my education. > > > > > At 03:37 PM 3/3/2010, you wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 7:44 AM, Robin Hamilton > wrote: >> So let's build on a model of proved success.? For me Wiki provides a model >> of success, whereas blogs, at least as they stand at the moment, are >> pretty >> much of a total dead end when it comes to managing, collaborating, and >> focusing.? Glorified diaries, most of them, for all of me, and if I want >> to >> read an op-ed column, I'd open the pages of the NYT. >> >> Ah, done it again -- told myself I'd try not to be *gratuitously >> offensive. >> ? OK, add to the above negative comment on blogs, "present company >> excepted." > > Blogs are certainly not the best place for the kind of collaborative > activity it sounds like might happen here... > > I find a lot of compelling stuff out there in blogland, but it has > taken me a while to find those that fit me, and the result is a > constantly evolving set. And if I just surfed 'old school' to each one > in my browser hoping for new content, etc. it would drive me crazy. > That's what Google Reader and other such applications were made for. > > c > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > California Press). > > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > else like it."?? John Palattella in The Nation > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From junction Wed Mar 3 18:04:00 2010 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed Mar 3 18:04:00 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: Sure thing. At 07:30 PM 3/3/2010, you wrote: >Thanks, Mark! I hope you won't mind some specific questions as they >come. I know education's a lifetime thing, but I may need to >prioritize a bit in terms of specific works by specific poets. > >c > >On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 12:55 PM, Mark Weiss wrote: > > Let's by all means make this as complex as possible. How about > whoever wants > > to makes a list, all the lists are collated, and the name of each > person who > > suggested a given poet appear after the poet's name? > > > > Everything as much as posible to be read aloud. > > > > For a start, and very much off the top of my head, and confining myself > > entirely to English (and one translation so enshrined in the language that > > it passes for English), with absolutely no attempt at inclusiveness or > > political correctness, just what's actually been most important to me as a > > writer, even if there's stuff I admire as much but I haven't internalized > > the same way. > > > > Chaucer, Troilus and the Canterbury Tales. > > The Pearl Poet, Gawain and the Green Knight > > Langland, Piers Plowman B-text > > Any good collection of middle english lyrics. > > > > The above in the original. There are lots of versions with unfamiliar words > > glossed in the margin or below the text. It takes a very little time to > > figure out the vowel shift, and there are recordings that will act as > > tutorials. Note that you'll probably be laughed at in the wilderness of > > Wirral for sounding like a Londoner, but do you really care? > > > > Whyatt > > Sidney > > Montague > > Spencer--the sonnets and the Epithalamion > > Shakespeare > > Ben Jonson > > Donne > > Traherne > > Herrick > > Herbert > > A good anthology of Elizabethan lyric > > A good anthology of the ballads. > > Old Testament, King James version. Think of it as early 17th century > > English. And it doesn't matter for our purposes if it's inaccurate in > > places. All of it except for Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Chronicles. > > Milton, especially Lycidas and the three great late works > > Marvell > > Dryden, Annus Mirabilis, Absalom, MacFlecknoe, versions of Chaucer, The > > Conquest of Granada > > Otway, Venice Preserv'd > > Rochester > > Pope, Epistle to Arbuthnot > > Swift > > Smart, Psalm to David and Jubilate Agno > > Sam Johnson, London > > Burns > > Blake > > Wordworth thru 1810ish > > Coleridge > > Clare > > Keats, the odes > > Hopkins > > Tennyson, chunks of In Memoriam > > Whitman, start with Crossing Brooklyn Ferry > > Dickinson > > Meredith, "Love in a Valley" > > Yeats > > Ford Maddox Ford, Buckshee > > Pound, the translations, Cathay, big chunks of the Cantos > > Williams > > Stevens > > Reznikoff > > Oppen > > Niedecker > > Olson, Maximus (the theory stuff, esp Projective Verse and Human Universe, > > too) > > Duncan, The Opening of the Field > > Creeley (need convincing to read all of him? Start with "The Finger" in > > Pieces) > > Spicer > > Wieners, Hotel Wentley Poems, Asylum Poems, Ace of Pentacles, > Pressed Wafer, > > "We Were There!" > > Blackburn > > Schwerner > > > > Note that only the dead are included as a matter of policy, which accounts > > for the lack of contemporary Irish, English, Canadians and Australians. And > > that I'm aware that there are few women and no people of color. If I had > > been born later or differently the list would probably be > different. This is > > not a record of who I wish I'd imbibed when they would have > stuck, but who I > > did. > > > > Best, > > > > Mark > > > > PS I've probably left out 20 poets who were crucial to my education. > > > > > > > > > > At 03:37 PM 3/3/2010, you wrote: > > > > On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 7:44 AM, Robin Hamilton > > wrote: > >> So let's build on a model of proved success. For me Wiki provides a model > >> of success, whereas blogs, at least as they stand at the moment, are > >> pretty > >> much of a total dead end when it comes to managing, collaborating, and > >> focusing. Glorified diaries, most of them, for all of me, and if I want > >> to > >> read an op-ed column, I'd open the pages of the NYT. > >> > >> Ah, done it again -- told myself I'd try not to be *gratuitously > >> offensive. > >> OK, add to the above negative comment on blogs, "present company > >> excepted." > > > > Blogs are certainly not the best place for the kind of collaborative > > activity it sounds like might happen here... > > > > I find a lot of compelling stuff out there in blogland, but it has > > taken me a while to find those that fit me, and the result is a > > constantly evolving set. And if I just surfed 'old school' to each one > > in my browser hoping for new content, etc. it would drive me crazy. > > That's what Google Reader and other such applications were made for. > > > > c > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of > > California Press). > > > > http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland > > > > "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of > > Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively > > broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also > > created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing > > else like it." John Palattella in The Nation > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100303/792c18a9/attachment.html From junction Wed Mar 3 18:10:50 2010 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed Mar 3 18:10:50 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] More List addenda Message-ID: O'Hara (start with In Memory of My Feelings, then the odes, then everything else) Ginsberg, Howl, America, Ether Koch, Ko, or A Season on Earth (it helps if you like baseball. And something's been lost since it's no longer an absurd fantasy imagining a Japanese slugger in the majors) >Dorn >Blaser >Rexroth >Stephen Jonas >Chaucer, Troilus and the Canterbury Tales. >The Pearl Poet, Gawain and the Green Knight >Langland, Piers Plowman B-text >Any good collection of middle english lyrics. > >The above in the original. There are lots of versions with >unfamiliar words glossed in the margin or below the text. It takes a >very little time to figure out the vowel shift, and there are >recordings that will act as tutorials. Note that you'll probably be >laughed at in the wilderness of Wirral for sounding like a Londoner, >but do you really care? > >Whyatt >Sidney >Montague >Spencer--the sonnets and the Epithalamion >Shakespeare >Ben Jonson >Donne >Traherne >Herrick >Herbert >A good anthology of Elizabethan lyric >A good anthology of the ballads. >Old Testament, King James version. Think of it as early 17th century >English. And it doesn't matter for our purposes if it's inaccurate >in places. All of it except for Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Chronicles. >Milton, especially Lycidas and the three great late works >Marvell >Dryden, Annus Mirabilis, Absalom, MacFlecknoe, versions of Chaucer, >The Conquest of Granada >Otway, Venice Preserv'd >Rochester >Pope, Epistle to Arbuthnot >Swift >Smart, Psalm to David and Jubilate Agno >Sam Johnson, London >Burns >Blake >Wordworth thru 1810ish >Coleridge >Clare >Keats, the odes >Hopkins >Tennyson, chunks of In Memoriam >Whitman, start with Crossing Brooklyn Ferry >Dickinson >Meredith, "Love in a Valley" >Yeats >Ford Maddox Ford, Buckshee >Pound, the translations, Cathay, big chunks of the Cantos >Williams >Stevens >Reznikoff >Oppen >Niedecker >Olson, Maximus (the theory stuff, esp Projective Verse and Human >Universe, too) >Duncan, The Opening of the Field >Creeley (need convincing to read all of him? Start with "The Finger" >in Pieces) >Spicer >Wieners, Hotel Wentley Poems, Asylum Poems, Ace of Pentacles, >Pressed Wafer, "We Were There!" >Blackburn >Schwerner Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100303/c2ce07a6/attachment.html From robin.hamilton2 Wed Mar 3 18:58:11 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed Mar 3 18:58:11 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC><4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net><6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <956167F872FC4945915DD2BDDB843B8B@RobinLaptopPC> Annotations to Mark's list (in haste, while trying to check in online in order to flee the country tomorrow): ________________________________________________________ Everything as much as posible to be read aloud. {CONCUR, and emphasise. Possibly also a link to read-aloud OE and ME texts?} Chaucer, Troilus and the Canterbury Tales. COUNTER: (Only) Prologue to Canterbury Tales, and The Pardoner's Prologue and Tale. The Pearl Poet, Gawain and the Green Knight OBSERVATION: Gawain and the Green Knight should carry a health warning -- this is not as easy to read as Chaucer and Langland (and possibly even more difficult than Beowulf). RELATED ADDITION: Beowulf in the Glossed Text (Penguin) by Michael Alexander. (As far as I know, there isn't anything comparable online, so this is a case where you have to buy the book.) Langland, Piers Plowman B-text COUNTER: Agree on the B-Text, but only the Prologue. SHELF COPY: Schmidt Everyman edition of the B-text. INFORMATIONAL NOTE -- A, B, C and Z-Texts. (Bags me the comment on the Z-text.) Any good collection of middle english lyrics. EXTENSION: Hardcopy vs. Online. {About shelf copies, I'd suggest possibly five positive recommendations (with reasons) -- I'd nominate the Silverstein collection. (And dis-recommend the Davies Medieval English Lyrics published here by Faber.) } LINK TO comment on: The Harley Lyrics. The above in the original. There are lots of versions with unfamiliar words glossed in the margin or below the text. It takes a very little time to figure out the vowel shift, and there are recordings that will act as tutorials. Note that you'll probably be laughed at in the wilderness of Wirral for sounding like a Londoner, but do you really care? Yup. Direction to further background reading in the area? Teach Yourself to Chatter and Mutter in Middle English ONE TEXT -- Baugh, _History of the English Language_ (any edition). SENTENTIOUSLY -- Wot, no Scots? Barbour's Bruce, Blind Harry's Wallace, Henryson, Dunbar, Gavin Douglas (Pound recommends him in _The ABC of Reading_), _The Book of the Howlat_, the bob-and-wheel alliterative Middle Scots texts as a necessary context for GGK ... Whyatt Hoo? {Obviously, a thorough knowledge of the Devonshire, Egerton, Blage, and Arundel MSS, and Grimald's Miscellany, is absolutely necessary before any approach is made to Sir Thomas Wyatt (the Elder).} OBSERVATION: I agree with Mark's implicit judgement that Surrey can be quite easily ignored. Sidney COUNTER: 10 sonnets from _aSTROPHIL AND sTELLA_, and the Renunciation of Love one (I forget the title) from Sundrie Sonnets Montague QUERY: Montaigne the cheese eating surrender monkey (in Florio's translation, together with Frames modern translation. + The original French)? -- or did you mean Lady Mary Wortley Montague? Spencer--the sonnets and the Epithalamion COUNTER: Yuck!!!! Except for the Mutability Cantos. {As an exponent of the sonnet, other than for historical interest, Spenser comes (way) behind Shakespeare, Greville, and even Sidney.} SHELF COPY: Evans, _The Elizabethan Sonnet Cycle_ ___________________________________________________________ K, nuff for now. Gotta go pack. Robin From junction Wed Mar 3 19:17:38 2010 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed Mar 3 19:17:38 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <956167F872FC4945915DD2BDDB843B8B@RobinLaptopPC> References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> <956167F872FC4945915DD2BDDB843B8B@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: "Montague" is clearly a memory glitch. I'll never find the reference. A cycle of ten sonnets the first or among the first sonnet sequences. Impressed me greatly as an adolescent. What to read is clearly a matter of how much time. But certainly a lot more Chaucer. If I had to go bare bones I'd go with Troilus. Gawain way rewards the effort. Likewise Langland. But sure, the intro for brief time. Badly edited Whyatt is way better than no Whyatt at all (sorry, Robin). Remember, I was reporting work that helped form me as a poet, not objective betters and worsts. Which means things encountered early loom a lot larger. I also like Banjo Patterson. Not much influence visible in my work, tho. At 08:46 PM 3/3/2010, you wrote: > Annotations to Mark's list (in haste, while trying to check > in online in order to flee the country tomorrow): > >________________________________________________________ > >Everything as much as posible to be read aloud. > > {CONCUR, and emphasise. Possibly also a link to read-aloud > OE and ME texts?} > >Chaucer, Troilus and the Canterbury Tales. > > COUNTER: (Only) Prologue to Canterbury Tales, and The > Pardoner's Prologue and Tale. > >The Pearl Poet, Gawain and the Green Knight > > OBSERVATION: Gawain and the Green Knight should carry a > health warning -- this is not as easy to read as Chaucer and > Langland (and possibly even more difficult than Beowulf). > > RELATED ADDITION: Beowulf in the Glossed Text (Penguin) by > Michael Alexander. (As far as I know, there isn't anything > comparable online, so this is a case where you have to buy the book.) > >Langland, Piers Plowman B-text > > COUNTER: Agree on the B-Text, but only the Prologue. > > SHELF COPY: Schmidt Everyman edition of the B-text. > > INFORMATIONAL NOTE -- A, B, C and Z-Texts. (Bags me the > comment on the Z-text.) > >Any good collection of middle english lyrics. > > EXTENSION: Hardcopy vs. Online. > > {About shelf copies, I'd suggest possibly five positive > recommendations (with reasons) -- I'd nominate the Silverstein > collection. (And dis-recommend the Davies Medieval English Lyrics > published here by Faber.) } > > LINK TO comment on: The Harley Lyrics. > >The above in the original. There are lots of versions with >unfamiliar words glossed in the margin or below the text. It takes a >very little time to figure out the vowel shift, and there are >recordings that will act as tutorials. Note that you'll probably be >laughed at in the wilderness of Wirral for sounding like a Londoner, >but do you really care? > > Yup. Direction to further background reading in the > area? Teach Yourself to Chatter and Mutter in Middle English > > ONE TEXT -- Baugh, _History of the English Language_ (any edition). > > SENTENTIOUSLY -- Wot, no Scots? > > Barbour's Bruce, Blind Harry's Wallace, Henryson, Dunbar, > Gavin Douglas (Pound recommends him in _The ABC of Reading_), _The > Book of the Howlat_, the bob-and-wheel alliterative Middle Scots > texts as a necessary context for GGK ... > >Whyatt > > Hoo? > > {Obviously, a thorough knowledge of the Devonshire, Egerton, > Blage, and Arundel MSS, and Grimald's Miscellany, is absolutely > necessary before any approach is made to Sir Thomas Wyatt (the Elder).} > > OBSERVATION: I agree with Mark's implicit judgement that > Surrey can be quite easily ignored. > >Sidney > > COUNTER: 10 sonnets from _aSTROPHIL AND sTELLA_, and the > Renunciation of Love one (I forget the title) from Sundrie Sonnets > >Montague > > QUERY: Montaigne the cheese eating surrender monkey (in > Florio's translation, together with Frames modern translation. + > The original French)? > > -- or did you mean Lady Mary Wortley Montague? > >Spencer--the sonnets and the Epithalamion > > COUNTER: Yuck!!!! Except for the Mutability Cantos. > > {As an exponent of the sonnet, other than for historical > interest, Spenser comes (way) behind Shakespeare, Greville, and even Sidney.} > > SHELF COPY: Evans, _The Elizabethan Sonnet Cycle_ > >___________________________________________________________ > >K, nuff for now. Gotta go pack. > >Robin > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100303/82cd63b2/attachment.html From robin.hamilton2 Wed Mar 3 19:43:17 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Wed Mar 3 19:43:17 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC><4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net><6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC><956167F872FC4945915DD2BDDB843B8B@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: Ah. now you've got me racking my brains as to who dat Montague could be. Admittedly, I was going to the opposite extreme from you -- what's the bare-bones minimum? If I were less jokey, or had more time, I'd suggest a hierarchical list in each case. i.e. With Chaucer, the obvious start point is the Prologue to the Canterbury Tales, perhaps initially heard in a good reading. (There used to be a vinyl by was it Coghill which was great -- and there must be *something online.) Then where? I'd seriously suggest the Pardoner's Prologue and Tale. Then there's the Wife of Bath. Only after that the Knight's Tale. And put beside Chaucer, Dunbar's "Tretis of the Tua Merrit Wemen and the Wedo" (Wife of Bath) and Henryson's "Testament of Cresseid" (which I'd quite seriously suggest reading before Chaucer's Troilus -- shorter and less dated. As to any edition of Wyatt being better than no edition ... Ah, hell, I have to agree, 'specially as it looks like I'll never finish mine. Wyatt Hierarchy: They flee from me ... Some sonnets Satires Psalms Robin -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100303/95ead8fe/attachment.html From junction Wed Mar 3 20:45:37 2010 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Wed Mar 3 20:45:37 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> <956167F872FC4945915DD2BDDB843B8B@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: We have different Chaucer favorites, but it's hard to miss (tho I might wait on the Treatise on the Astrolabe). I also love The Parlement of Fowles. Reading Gawain the first time was an amazing experience. I tingle when I think of it. At 09:31 PM 3/3/2010, you wrote: >Ah. now you've got me racking my brains as to who dat Montague could be. > >Admittedly, I was going to the opposite extreme from you -- what's >the bare-bones minimum? If I were less jokey, or had more time, I'd >suggest a hierarchical list in each case. > >i.e. With Chaucer, the obvious start point is the Prologue to the >Canterbury Tales, perhaps initially heard in a good reading. (There >used to be a vinyl by was it Coghill which was great -- and there >must be *something online.) > >Then where? I'd seriously suggest the Pardoner's Prologue and >Tale. Then there's the Wife of Bath. Only after that the Knight's Tale. > >And put beside Chaucer, Dunbar's "Tretis of the Tua Merrit Wemen and >the Wedo" (Wife of Bath) and Henryson's "Testament of Cresseid" >(which I'd quite seriously suggest reading before Chaucer's Troilus >-- shorter and less dated. > >As to any edition of Wyatt being better than no edition ... Ah, >hell, I have to agree, 'specially as it looks like I'll never finish mine. > >Wyatt Hierarchy: > >They flee from me ... >Some sonnets > >Satires >Psalms > >Robin >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100303/9741c12f/attachment.html From halvard Wed Mar 3 21:34:31 2010 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Wed Mar 3 21:34:31 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <956167F872FC4945915DD2BDDB843B8B@RobinLaptopPC> References: <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> <956167F872FC4945915DD2BDDB843B8B@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: T. Silverstein--whatever Olde English I can still read I owe to him. Hal follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest collection -- http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Wed, Mar 3, 2010 at 7:46 PM, Robin Hamilton < robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote: > Annotations to Mark's list (in haste, while trying to check in online > in order to flee the country tomorrow): > > ________________________________________________________ > > > Everything as much as posible to be read aloud. > > {CONCUR, and emphasise. Possibly also a link to read-aloud OE and ME > texts?} > > > Chaucer, Troilus and the Canterbury Tales. > > COUNTER: (Only) Prologue to Canterbury Tales, and The Pardoner's > Prologue and Tale. > > > The Pearl Poet, Gawain and the Green Knight > > OBSERVATION: Gawain and the Green Knight should carry a health > warning -- this is not as easy to read as Chaucer and Langland (and possibly > even more difficult than Beowulf). > > RELATED ADDITION: Beowulf in the Glossed Text (Penguin) by Michael > Alexander. (As far as I know, there isn't anything comparable online, so > this is a case where you have to buy the book.) > > > Langland, Piers Plowman B-text > > COUNTER: Agree on the B-Text, but only the Prologue. > > SHELF COPY: Schmidt Everyman edition of the B-text. > > INFORMATIONAL NOTE -- A, B, C and Z-Texts. (Bags me the comment on > the Z-text.) > > > Any good collection of middle english lyrics. > > EXTENSION: Hardcopy vs. Online. > > {About shelf copies, I'd suggest possibly five positive > recommendations (with reasons) -- I'd nominate the Silverstein collection. > (And dis-recommend the Davies Medieval English Lyrics published here by > Faber.) } > > LINK TO comment on: The Harley Lyrics. > > > The above in the original. There are lots of versions with unfamiliar words > glossed in the margin or below the text. It takes a very little time to > figure out the vowel shift, and there are recordings that will act as > tutorials. Note that you'll probably be laughed at in the wilderness of > Wirral for sounding like a Londoner, but do you really care? > > Yup. Direction to further background reading in the area? Teach > Yourself to Chatter and Mutter in Middle English > > ONE TEXT -- Baugh, _History of the English Language_ (any edition). > > SENTENTIOUSLY -- Wot, no Scots? > > Barbour's Bruce, Blind Harry's Wallace, Henryson, Dunbar, Gavin > Douglas (Pound recommends him in _The ABC of Reading_), _The Book of the > Howlat_, the bob-and-wheel alliterative Middle Scots texts as a necessary > context for GGK ... > > Whyatt > > Hoo? > > {Obviously, a thorough knowledge of the Devonshire, Egerton, Blage, > and Arundel MSS, and Grimald's Miscellany, is absolutely necessary before > any approach is made to Sir Thomas Wyatt (the Elder).} > > OBSERVATION: I agree with Mark's implicit judgement that Surrey can > be quite easily ignored. > > Sidney > > COUNTER: 10 sonnets from _aSTROPHIL AND sTELLA_, and the > Renunciation of Love one (I forget the title) from Sundrie Sonnets > > Montague > > QUERY: Montaigne the cheese eating surrender monkey (in Florio's > translation, together with Frames modern translation. + The original > French)? > > -- or did you mean Lady Mary Wortley Montague? > > > Spencer--the sonnets and the Epithalamion > > COUNTER: Yuck!!!! Except for the Mutability Cantos. > > {As an exponent of the sonnet, other than for historical interest, > Spenser comes (way) behind Shakespeare, Greville, and even Sidney.} > > SHELF COPY: Evans, _The Elizabethan Sonnet Cycle_ > > ___________________________________________________________ > > K, nuff for now. Gotta go pack. > > Robin > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100303/3ba1a2bd/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Wed Mar 3 22:01:25 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed Mar 3 22:01:25 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Chora by Sandra Doller Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003032049v52086f7ax893d75ff2151be32@mail.gmail.com> http://hosted.verticalresponse.com/598041/c26296af20/289101767/04bb735a63/ -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100304/d98386e6/attachment.html From bircumplus Thu Mar 4 00:18:08 2010 From: bircumplus (David Bircumshaw) Date: Thu Mar 4 00:18:08 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <956167F872FC4945915DD2BDDB843B8B@RobinLaptopPC> References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC><04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC><4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net><6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> <956167F872FC4945915DD2BDDB843B8B@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <794490.28061.qm@web28506.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Old Englkish additions: Wulf annd Eadwacer The Charm against the Wennikin Deor ?David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com ________________________________ From: Robin Hamilton To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Thu, 4 March, 2010 1:46:01 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound ? ? ? Annotations to Mark's list (in haste, while trying to check in online in order to flee the country tomorrow): ________________________________________________________ Everything as much as posible to be read aloud. ? ? ? {CONCUR, and emphasise.? Possibly also a link to read-aloud OE and ME texts?} Chaucer, Troilus and the Canterbury Tales. ? ? ? COUNTER:? (Only) Prologue to Canterbury Tales, and The Pardoner's Prologue and Tale. The Pearl Poet, Gawain and the Green Knight ? ? ? OBSERVATION:? Gawain and the Green Knight should carry a health warning -- this is not as easy to read as Chaucer and Langland (and possibly even more difficult than Beowulf). ? ? ? RELATED ADDITION:? Beowulf in the Glossed Text (Penguin) by Michael Alexander.? (As far as I know, there isn't anything comparable online, so this is a case where you have to buy the book.) Langland, Piers Plowman B-text ? ? ? COUNTER:? Agree on the B-Text, but only the Prologue. ? ? ? SHELF COPY:? Schmidt Everyman edition of the B-text. ? ? ? INFORMATIONAL NOTE -- A, B, C and Z-Texts.? (Bags me the comment on the Z-text.) Any good collection of middle english lyrics. ? ? ? EXTENSION:? Hardcopy vs. Online. ? ? ? {About shelf copies, I'd suggest possibly five positive recommendations (with reasons) -- I'd nominate the Silverstein collection. (And dis-recommend the Davies Medieval English Lyrics published here by Faber.) } ? ? ? LINK TO comment on:? The Harley Lyrics. The above in the original. There are lots of versions with unfamiliar words glossed in the margin or below the text. It takes a very little time to figure out the vowel shift, and there are recordings that will act as tutorials. Note that you'll probably be laughed at in the wilderness of Wirral for sounding like a Londoner, but do you really care? ? ? ? Yup.? Direction to further background reading in the area?? Teach Yourself to Chatter and Mutter in Middle English ? ? ? ONE TEXT -- Baugh, _History of the English Language_ (any edition). ? ? ? SENTENTIOUSLY -- Wot, no Scots? ? ? ? Barbour's Bruce, Blind Harry's Wallace, Henryson, Dunbar, Gavin Douglas (Pound recommends him in _The ABC of Reading_), _The Book of the Howlat_, the bob-and-wheel alliterative Middle Scots texts as a necessary context for GGK ... Whyatt ? ? ? Hoo? ? ? ? {Obviously, a thorough knowledge of the Devonshire, Egerton, Blage, and Arundel MSS, and Grimald's Miscellany, is absolutely necessary before any approach is made to Sir Thomas Wyatt (the Elder).} ? ? ? OBSERVATION:? I agree with Mark's implicit judgement that Surrey can be quite easily ignored. Sidney ? ? ? COUNTER:? 10 sonnets from _aSTROPHIL AND sTELLA_, and the Renunciation of Love one (I forget the title) from Sundrie Sonnets Montague ? ? ? QUERY:? Montaigne the cheese eating surrender monkey (in Florio's translation, together with Frames modern translation.? + The original French)? ? ? ? ? ? -- or did you mean Lady Mary Wortley Montague? Spencer--the sonnets and the Epithalamion ? ? ? COUNTER:? Yuck!!!!? Except for the Mutability Cantos. ? ? ? {As an exponent of the sonnet, other than for historical interest, Spenser comes (way) behind Shakespeare, Greville, and even Sidney.} ? ? ? SHELF COPY:? Evans, _The Elizabethan Sonnet Cycle_ ___________________________________________________________ K, nuff for now.? Gotta go pack. Robin _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100304/4df66974/attachment-0001.html From bircumplus Thu Mar 4 00:20:07 2010 From: bircumplus (David Bircumshaw) Date: Thu Mar 4 00:20:07 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <17B5E633819B4850A61B70AD6561A7DD@RobinLaptopPC> <04605DDCE40F41F999D57370D32F12F1@RobinLaptopPC> <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> <956167F872FC4945915DD2BDDB843B8B@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <259016.5855.qm@web28501.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> The House of Fame, though perhaps in excerpt ?David Bircumshaw Website: http://www.staplednapkin.org.uk Blog: http://groggydays.blogspot.com ________________________________ From: Mark Weiss To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News & Views" Sent: Thu, 4 March, 2010 3:33:51 Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound We have different Chaucer favorites, but it's hard to miss (tho I might wait on the Treatise on the Astrolabe). I also love The Parlement of Fowles. Reading Gawain the first time was an amazing experience. I tingle when I think of it. At 09:31 PM 3/3/2010, you wrote: Ah. now you've got me racking my brains as to who dat Montague could be. >? >Admittedly, I was going to the opposite extreme from you -- what's the bare-bones minimum?? If I were less jokey, or had more time, I'd suggest a hierarchical list in each case. >? >i.e.? With Chaucer, the obvious start point is the Prologue to the Canterbury Tales, perhaps initially heard in a good reading.? (There used to be a vinyl by was it Coghill which was great -- and there must be *something online.) >? >Then where?? I'd seriously suggest the Pardoner's Prologue and Tale.? Then there's the Wife of Bath.? Only after that the Knight's Tale. >? >And put beside Chaucer, Dunbar's "Tretis of the Tua Merrit Wemen and the Wedo" (Wife of Bath) and Henryson's "Testament of Cresseid" (which I'd quite seriously suggest reading before Chaucer's Troilus -- shorter and less dated. >? >As to any edition of Wyatt being better than no edition ...? Ah, hell, I have to agree, 'specially as it looks like I'll never finish mine. >? >Wyatt Hierarchy: >? >They flee from me ... >Some sonnets >? >Satires >Psalms >? >Robin >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it."?? John Palattella in The Nation ???????? ???????? ???????? ???????? ???????? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100304/1d46427d/attachment.html From c.a.b.daly Thu Mar 4 11:12:10 2010 From: c.a.b.daly (Catherine Daly) Date: Thu Mar 4 11:12:10 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <794490.28061.qm@web28506.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> References: <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> <956167F872FC4945915DD2BDDB843B8B@RobinLaptopPC> <794490.28061.qm@web28506.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Sun and Moon published a book of newly writing Old English poetry -- Hwet! -- I think it was called but seriously, this is a wonderful booklist, looks like a solid ivy league undergrad intro to brit lit survey if one wanted to teach one even more limited to white guys than usual, or a series of more upper division courses, especially one of those offered- every-three-years OE/ME ones and one devoted to a bunch of american guys and one charwoman-poet. what it has to do with the teaching of poetry writing on the graduate level, I don't know. while it is rare to find non-English majors in workshops, it is increasingly likely even the MDs going back to school have got high scores on the GRE AND Lit subject test to get in. which requires reading all these books, plus restoration comedy, and more than a little Saintsbury. then again, this looks like the booklist for the exam for the UCLA MA English; I remember asking, during my unsuccessful application process, if I could just take the exam, as I had an MFA and had already read all the books and done creative writing projects with the texts, and they said "no" so what I'm saying is: I can see this particular group of readings, 1st half, being ok for a remedial reading course in brit lit in an MFA course, or perhaps a nice booklist to provide adult students in a nighttime creative writing continuing ed situation (knowing that some will choose to go on to MFAs, but have taken a different path educationally, and may not have been english majors), but what I would like to know how one would use these particular readings to teach poetry writing -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com From junction Thu Mar 4 11:18:46 2010 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Thu Mar 4 11:18:46 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: <4B8E0283.1050401@nut-n-but.net> <6157160638C34D3BB9416D5AE6B1A7E5@RobinLaptopPC> <956167F872FC4945915DD2BDDB843B8B@RobinLaptopPC> <794490.28061.qm@web28506.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I didn't think the list had anything to do with teaching, certainly not classroom teaching. For that I would have created a very different list. It may be that several different purposes have crossed here. Best, Mark At 01:00 PM 3/4/2010, you wrote: >Sun and Moon published a book of newly writing Old English poetry -- >Hwet! -- I think it was called > >but seriously, this is a wonderful booklist, looks like a solid ivy >league undergrad intro to brit lit survey if one wanted to teach one >even more limited to white guys than usual, or a series of more upper >division courses, especially one of those offered- every-three-years >OE/ME ones and one devoted to a bunch of american guys and one >charwoman-poet. > >what it has to do with the teaching of poetry writing on the graduate >level, I don't know. while it is rare to find non-English majors in >workshops, it is increasingly likely even the MDs going back to school >have got high scores on the GRE AND Lit subject test to get in. which >requires reading all these books, plus restoration comedy, and more >than a little Saintsbury. > >then again, this looks like the booklist for the exam for the UCLA MA >English; I remember asking, during my unsuccessful application >process, if I could just take the exam, as I had an MFA and had >already read all the books and done creative writing projects with the >texts, and they said "no" > >so what I'm saying is: I can see this particular group of readings, >1st half, being ok for a remedial reading course in brit lit in an MFA >course, or perhaps a nice booklist to provide adult students in a >nighttime creative writing continuing ed situation (knowing that some >will choose to go on to MFAs, but have taken a different path >educationally, and may not have been english majors), but what I would >like to know how one would use these particular readings to teach >poetry writing > >-- >All best, >Catherine Daly >c.a.b.daly at gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100304/e6e3ca88/attachment.html From skip Thu Mar 4 11:36:11 2010 From: skip (Skip Fox) Date: Thu Mar 4 11:36:11 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5A600E66C5684CCC87E9E097EE9841DA@win.louisiana.edu> I love Mark's list and wish I had the time to add. (I once read at the Longfellow House in Cambridge and open the reading, to a sprinkling of listeners, by saying I was happy to be reading in a city of such a strong literary heritage, stretching "all the way back to Weiners and Jonas." As I anticipated even then, no one got it..) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100304/64fd897a/attachment.html From amyhappens Thu Mar 4 12:06:02 2010 From: amyhappens (amy king) Date: Thu Mar 4 12:06:02 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Query - Poem Commissions? Message-ID: <527918.96540.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> So I commissioned a female artist not long ago to make some dolls of my partner-in-crime, Ana, and myself. I can't tell you how thrilled I was when they arrived today -- so much so that I posted a note and photos here --http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/04/strange-dolls/ But this got me to thinking, especially in relation to the film, "Who Does She Think She Is?" (http://www.whodoesshethinksheis.net/) -- how many of us are ever commissioned to sell our own art? How often do we support artists who are making a go of doing such? Is it possible to write poems for pay? Is there a way to start a trend, especially in the face of current economic climate, that gets back to supporting the little artist toiling away at her craft? Are you one of those artists who would be willing to give it a whirl? I realize this raises a whole host of loaded issues (i.e. can creativity be prompted by pay? Can a poet actually sell poems? Is this a call to pull your dusty mimeograph and letterpress machines from the attics and basements?), but I ask after finding out a poet I know has done as much, and he's something of a name... and I'd like to open a discussion about such the business of making a life as an artist in this country. Or are we all just supplementing our lives with side art / "hobbies"? Best, Amy _______ BOOK Slaves to Do These Things-- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm RANT "My Barbaric Bitch of a Yawp" -- http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2010/02/amy-king.html ESSAY "The What Else"-- http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/Archives/Winter_2009/prose/A_King.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100304/bf0fedf6/attachment.html From junction Thu Mar 4 12:24:19 2010 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Thu Mar 4 12:24:19 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: <5A600E66C5684CCC87E9E097EE9841DA@win.louisiana.edu> References: <5A600E66C5684CCC87E9E097EE9841DA@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: Steve Jonas is an especially sad case.Wieners had the backing of Fag Rag, and he was picked up by the Language people. Jonas remains an orphan of sorts, tho I think everything's available with the help of bookfinder. His executors, Rafael de Gruttola and Gerrit Lansing (as I remember), have done their best. If I could find my copy I'd type out the first of his Exercises for Ear. First lines: "In trips sweet May / upon those damsel feet of hers." At 01:24 PM 3/4/2010, you wrote: >I love Mark's list and wish I had the time to add. > >(I once read at the Longfellow House in Cambridge and open the >reading, to a sprinkling of listeners, by saying I was happy to be >reading in a city of such a strong literary heritage, stretching >"all the way back to Weiners and Jonas." As I anticipated even then, >no one got it..) >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100304/119e54bd/attachment.html From acgold01 Thu Mar 4 12:45:08 2010 From: acgold01 (Alan C Golding) Date: Thu Mar 4 12:45:08 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound's scholars Message-ID: <4B8FC4B2.AC48.0004.0@gwise.louisville.edu> "Are his ideal scholars who would inform the state (in the person of Malatesta, Mussolini, etc.) and reintroduce the classics divorced from the academy (like Kung)? I cannot remember." To try and respond belatedly to your question, Skip: this may seem like a spurious complication, but it depends on what one means by "divorced from the academy." I read Kung's scene of instruction in C. 13 as involving what we might now call a coterie or even an avant-garde, a small marginal group involved in intensive conversation about effecting cultural change from their marginal position. "Picabia's of a Sunday." But also Black Mountain, really. (Interestingly--to me, anyway!--the only person to speak in Poundian sentence fragments in C. 13 is the artist.) Pound consistently differentiates between the general mass of academic dullards and individual bright lights who are sometimes, actually, academics themselves, and--that key term for Pound--"experts." He constructs these bright lights as somehow divorced from at least the mass of academics even when they're academics themselves. (The term "expert" in EP trumps the academic / non-academic distinction.) So Kung = an academy of one, but in C. 20, pursuing a lead from one of his teachers at Penn, Pound hunts down Prof. Emil Levy in Freiburg, as a Provencal expert--my point being that EP's condemnation of academics is not a blanket one. On the other one, he makes much of the fact that Peter Abelard comes in as a kind of lay philosopher and out-argues (out-expertises) the tenured prof (anachronism, I know) in Paris, so that the students all follow Abelard out into the hills in an odd combination of Pied-Piper-meets-Sermon-on-the-Mount. OK--this has already gotten way more pedantic than I intended--I have an essay on these issues coming out in Journal of Modern Literature, and they're part of a book project, so I spoze they're on my mind. From skip Thu Mar 4 13:07:57 2010 From: skip (Skip Fox) Date: Thu Mar 4 13:07:57 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound's scholars In-Reply-To: <4B8FC4B2.AC48.0004.0@gwise.louisville.edu> Message-ID: I love pedantic. (I'm printing this off so I can think about later today when I'll have time.) Thanks, Alan. -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Alan C Golding Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 1:33 PM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Pound's scholars "Are his ideal scholars who would inform the state (in the person of Malatesta, Mussolini, etc.) and reintroduce the classics divorced from the academy (like Kung)? I cannot remember." To try and respond belatedly to your question, Skip: this may seem like a spurious complication, but it depends on what one means by "divorced from the academy." I read Kung's scene of instruction in C. 13 as involving what we might now call a coterie or even an avant-garde, a small marginal group involved in intensive conversation about effecting cultural change from their marginal position. "Picabia's of a Sunday." But also Black Mountain, really. (Interestingly--to me, anyway!--the only person to speak in Poundian sentence fragments in C. 13 is the artist.) Pound consistently differentiates between the general mass of academic dullards and individual bright lights who are sometimes, actually, academics themselves, and--that key term for Pound--"experts." He constructs these bright lights as somehow divorced from at least the mass of academics even when they're academics themselves. (The term "expert" in EP trumps the academic / non-academic distinction.) So Kung = ! an academy of one, but in C. 20, pursuing a lead from one of his teachers at Penn, Pound hunts down Prof. Emil Levy in Freiburg, as a Provencal expert--my point being that EP's condemnation of academics is not a blanket one. On the other one, he makes much of the fact that Peter Abelard comes in as a kind of lay philosopher and out-argues (out-expertises) the tenured prof (anachronism, I know) in Paris, so that the students all follow Abelard out into the hills in an odd combination of Pied-Piper-meets-Sermon-on-the-Mount. OK--this has already gotten way more pedantic than I intended--I have an essay on these issues coming out in Journal of Modern Literature, and they're part of a book project, so I spoze they're on my mind. _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry From skip Thu Mar 4 13:10:35 2010 From: skip (Skip Fox) Date: Thu Mar 4 13:10:35 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9F69B444380545B88344B13ED1C91C97@win.louisiana.edu> Lovely book. I have the London edition (which might be the only one). Talisman did his Selected in 1994. -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Mark Weiss Sent: Thursday, March 04, 2010 1:13 PM To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Subject: RE: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound Steve Jonas is an especially sad case.Wieners had the backing of Fag Rag, and he was picked up by the Language people. Jonas remains an orphan of sorts, tho I think everything's available with the help of bookfinder. His executors, Rafael de Gruttola and Gerrit Lansing (as I remember), have done their best. If I could find my copy I'd type out the first of his Exercises for Ear. First lines: "In trips sweet May / upon those damsel feet of hers." At 01:24 PM 3/4/2010, you wrote: I love Mark's list and wish I had the time to add. (I once read at the Longfellow House in Cambridge and open the reading, to a sprinkling of listeners, by saying I was happy to be reading in a city of such a strong literary heritage, stretching "all the way back to Weiners and Jonas." As I anticipated even then, no one got it..) _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100304/d44cf1e0/attachment.html From chris Thu Mar 4 13:40:38 2010 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Thu Mar 4 13:40:38 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets picking poets Message-ID: I've been reading _The McSweeney's Book of Poets Picking Poets_, which is composed of "threads" beginning with the work of one poet who then picks the next poet and so on. Anyone know of other collections like this? Seems like a natural idea, and much more interesting than the generic assemblage of many anthologies... c From c.a.b.daly Thu Mar 4 14:01:42 2010 From: c.a.b.daly (Catherine Daly) Date: Thu Mar 4 14:01:42 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets picking poets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: no, but there's a new reading series in LA like this, and I think it was based on a poem Kim Addonizio wrote? not sure, could check out if you wanted Kenneth Koch's anthology is nice, gives interesting comments on poems that tend to trigger new poem-like thoughts -- nothing earth skaing, but a good beach read of an anthology -- All best, Catherine Daly c.a.b.daly at gmail.com From amyhappens Thu Mar 4 14:19:12 2010 From: amyhappens (amy king) Date: Thu Mar 4 14:19:12 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets picking poets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <658300.86856.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Yeah and it includes twenty male poets and two women (including the token Dickinson). But all of the male poets are good - I use it in my Writing Poetry class. ________________________________ From: Catherine Daly Kenneth Koch's anthology is nice, gives interesting comments on poems that tend to trigger new poem-like thoughts -- nothing earth skaing, but a good beach read of an anthology -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100304/a2724b0d/attachment.html From chris Thu Mar 4 14:27:02 2010 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Thu Mar 4 14:27:02 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets picking poets In-Reply-To: <658300.86856.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <658300.86856.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: FYI, the McSweeney's anthology has, by my quick count, 24 women, 25 men. c On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 12:07 PM, amy king wrote: > Yeah and it includes twenty male poets and two women (including the token > Dickinson). ?But all of the male poets are good - I use it in my Writing > Poetry class. > ________________________________ > From: Catherine Daly > > > Kenneth Koch's anthology is nice, gives interesting comments on poems > that tend to trigger new poem-like thoughts? -- nothing earth skaing, > but a good beach read of an anthology > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From skip Thu Mar 4 14:38:30 2010 From: skip (Skip Fox) Date: Thu Mar 4 14:38:30 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Stephen Jonas, Gentleman In-Reply-To: <9F69B444380545B88344B13ED1C91C97@win.louisiana.edu> Message-ID: I in trips sweet may upon those damsel feet of hers carpets spreading green before her cowsip & clover down to banks of ever chuckling streams of gurgle-happy waters & the sky 's one big squash of pumpkin smile First section from Exercises for Ear, Stephen Jonas (London: Ferry, 1968). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100304/b2c1ecb4/attachment.html From jbalizsprince Thu Mar 4 16:19:21 2010 From: jbalizsprince (Judy Prince) Date: Thu Mar 4 16:19:21 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets picking poets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7db1d01b1003041507l76d728bdx99efffa69f209a5f@mail.gmail.com> Sounds gorgeous, Chris----do you like the selections chosen, though? Judy On 4 March 2010 15:29, Chris Lott wrote: > I've been reading _The McSweeney's Book of Poets Picking Poets_, which > is composed of "threads" beginning with the work of one poet who then > picks the next poet and so on. > > Anyone know of other collections like this? Seems like a natural idea, > and much more interesting than the generic assemblage of many > anthologies... > > c > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ "I so rarely fuck up Jell-O." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100304/a6e46083/attachment.html From junction Thu Mar 4 17:13:31 2010 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Thu Mar 4 17:13:31 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound Message-ID: In a dream course, aside from a much longer list of poets, there'd be a great deal of music and visual arts, as well as political and cultural history and a lot of stuff from across whatever waters. And prose. Hell, give me the kids for the whole four years. Sounds like Black Mountain! But imagine reading Gawain surrounded by 13th and 14th century polyphony and manuscript illuminations. And lots of pop music from the period, too. And an awareness of the social changes happening and what the texture of the moment to moment was. It seems a shame to be constrained not to teach what it's taken decades to learn. That's the goal, I think. The few that will catch fire should have the means to find it for themselves. >I didn't think the list had anything to do with teaching, certainly >not classroom teaching. For that I would have created a very different list. > >It may be that several different purposes have crossed here. > >Best, > >Mark At 01:00 PM 3/4/2010, you wrote: >Sun and Moon published a book of newly writing Old English poetry -- >Hwet! -- I think it was called > >but seriously, this is a wonderful booklist, looks like a solid ivy >league undergrad intro to brit lit survey if one wanted to teach one >even more limited to white guys than usual, or a series of more upper >division courses, especially one of those offered- every-three-years >OE/ME ones and one devoted to a bunch of american guys and one >charwoman-poet. > >what it has to do with the teaching of poetry writing on the graduate >level, I don't know. while it is rare to find non-English majors in >workshops, it is increasingly likely even the MDs going back to school >have got high scores on the GRE AND Lit subject test to get in. which >requires reading all these books, plus restoration comedy, and more >than a little Saintsbury. > >then again, this looks like the booklist for the exam for the UCLA MA >English; I remember asking, during my unsuccessful application >process, if I could just take the exam, as I had an MFA and had >already read all the books and done creative writing projects with the >texts, and they said "no" > >so what I'm saying is: I can see this particular group of readings, >1st half, being ok for a remedial reading course in brit lit in an MFA >course, or perhaps a nice booklist to provide adult students in a >nighttime creative writing continuing ed situation (knowing that some >will choose to go on to MFAs, but have taken a different path >educationally, and may not have been english majors), but what I would >like to know how one would use these particular readings to teach >poetry writing > >-- >All best, >Catherine Daly >c.a.b.daly at gmail.com >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100304/13f74010/attachment.html From amyhappens Thu Mar 4 17:18:30 2010 From: amyhappens (amy king) Date: Thu Mar 4 17:18:30 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets picking poets In-Reply-To: References: <658300.86856.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <718495.69431.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Interesting. So when poets pick poets, it evens out more. Editors choose, it's male heavy and includes tokens. Goodreads, by the way, oddly has a female-heavy 'best of' list from last year. But then when you look to see who's doing the voting, it's the members and there are a large number of women. The established Best of lists don't represent what's being sold and read and voted on then... p.s. Chris, I'm brushing my 'essay' up and will send it next week. From: Chris Lott FYI, the McSweeney's anthology has, by my quick count, 24 women, 25 men. c -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100304/3be53bbf/attachment.html From jbalizsprince Thu Mar 4 17:23:40 2010 From: jbalizsprince (Judy Prince) Date: Thu Mar 4 17:23:40 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: Pound In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7db1d01b1003041612q7ee02f95rd7dae4178f974f20@mail.gmail.com> then what indeed will stop us?! If poets can't do this thing, then who can? Best, Judy On 4 March 2010 19:02, Mark Weiss wrote: > In a dream course, aside from a much longer list of poets, there'd be a > great deal of music and visual arts, as well as political and cultural > history and a lot of stuff from across whatever waters. And prose. > > Hell, give me the kids for the whole four years. > > Sounds like Black Mountain! > > But imagine reading Gawain surrounded by 13th and 14th century polyphony > and manuscript illuminations. And lots of pop music from the period, too. > And an awareness of the social changes happening and what the texture of the > moment to moment was. It seems a shame to be constrained not to teach what > it's taken decades to learn. > > That's the goal, I think. The few that will catch fire should have the > means to find it for themselves. > > I didn't think the list had anything to do with teaching, certainly not > classroom teaching. For that I would have created a very different list. > > It may be that several different purposes have crossed here. > > Best, > > Mark > > ---------------------------------------------------- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ "I so rarely fuck up Jell-O." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100304/0001a69d/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Fri Mar 5 02:01:09 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri Mar 5 02:01:09 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Geof Huth Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003050049q5f602db3p34b6a5f807a8b830@mail.gmail.com> Dear all Geof's book is out now: Check here - http://ifpthenq.co.uk/books.html James James Davies: Editor i*f p then q www.ifpthenq.co.uk ifpthenq at fsmail.net www.otherroom.org** OUT NOW: ** Geof Huth - ntst - March 2010 if p then q issue 4 - Caroline Bergvall, Allen Fisher, Richard Makin, Lucy Harvest Clarke, Andrew Shelley, Scott Thurston, Charles Bernstein, Ray DiPalma, Joy as Tiresome Vandalism, Philip Davenport - October 2009 http://www.ifpthenq.co.uk/magazine.html Lucy Harvest Clarke - Silveronda - November 2009 FORTHCOMING* *Tom Jenks - * - May 2010 Joy as Tiresome Vandalism - Absolute Elsewhere - Summer 2010 Tony Trehy - collection - late 2010 Matthew Welton - collection - late 2010 P. Inman - The Collected Works of P. Inman late 2011* *PREVIOUSLY: ** **if p then q spring 2008 issue 1 (Tom Jenks, Ceri Buck, Andrew Shelley, Tony Trehy, James Davies on P. Inman's 4 or 5, A Cd of readings by Ceri Buck and Tom Jenks) -http://www.ifpthenq.co.uk/magazine.html TOM JENKS - A PRIORI - http://www.ifpthenq.co.uk/books.html or www.amazon.co.uk JOY AS TIRESOME VANDALISM - aRb (2 volumes) http://www.ifpthenq.co.uk/others.html p.inman - AD FINITUM - http://www.ifpthenq.co.uk/books.html or www.amazon.co.uk if p then q autumn 2008 issue 2 (featuring p.inman, Scott Thurston, Janis Butler Holm, Michael Gibbs, Bill Allen on Michael Gibbs, Tony Trehy meets Robert Grenier, Joy as Tiresome Vandalism (aRb Versions) - http://www.ifpthenq.co.uk/magazine.html if p then q Text Festival Special Spring 2009 issue 3 (featuring A3 colour posters by Anne Charnock, Craig Dworkin, Geof Huth, P. Inman & Tom Jenks) - http://www.ifpthenq.co.uk/magazine.html* -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100305/2fa5cae5/attachment.html From robin.hamilton2 Fri Mar 5 09:06:10 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri Mar 5 09:06:10 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets picking poets In-Reply-To: <718495.69431.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <658300.86856.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <718495.69431.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <06623230539345AFB317D4DBBDEAE651@RobinLaptopPC> Amy King said: << Interesting. So when poets pick poets, it evens out more. Editors choose, it's male heavy and includes tokens. >> FWIW, faced with a choice of The Last Book to carry back with me from the US of A to the UK (where I am a subject rather than a citizen), between Volume 2 of _The Historical Dictionary of American Slang_ and the McElwrath and Robb edition of the complete works of Anne Bradstreet, I decided on the works of a female poet rather than a male lexicogapher. Eventually, someone's going to get the point that Anne Bradstreet is the first American poet, and the third finest Metaphysical Poet ever, period.end.finish (after Donne and Marvell but before George Herbert and Henry Vaughan) but I suspect by then, I'll be dead and buried and long forgotten. Robin (who is seriously jetlagged, having started, belatedly, on a flight between Detroit and Amsterdam, to work his way through the Library of America volume of Ashbery, and who immediately thought [based on the first 15 poems in _Some Trees_] that the obvious first names to spring connections to mind are: Wallace Stevens W.H.Auden J.H.Prynne ... but that the second set of names would encompass: James Fenton {obviously} ... but also Emily Dickinson Edward Lear Stevie Smith Just a thot. (jetlagged) R. From robin.hamilton2 Fri Mar 5 09:07:24 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Fri Mar 5 09:07:24 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets picking poets In-Reply-To: <718495.69431.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <658300.86856.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <718495.69431.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3691657CB8D849569CE0D8530ED4EBE4@RobinLaptopPC> Amy King said: << Interesting. So when poets pick poets, it evens out more. Editors choose, it's male heavy and includes tokens. >> FWIW, faced with a choice of The Last Book to carry back with me from the US of A to the UK (where I am a subject rather than a citizen), between Volume 2 of _The Historical Dictionary of American Slang_ and the McElwrath and Robb edition of the complete works of Anne Bradstreet, I decided on the works of a female poet rather than a male lexicogapher. Eventually, someone's going to get the point that Anne Bradstreet is the first American poet, and the third finest Metaphysical Poet ever, period.end.finish (after Donne and Marvell but before George Herbert and Henry Vaughan) but I suspect by then, I'll be dead and buried and long forgotten. Robin (who is seriously jetlagged, having started, belatedly, on a flight between Detroit and Amsterdam, to work his way through the Library of America volume of Ashbery, and who immediately thought [based on the first 15 poems in _Some Trees_] that the obvious first names to spring connections to mind are: Wallace Stevens W.H.Auden J.H.Prynne ... but that the second set of names would encompass: James Fenton {obviously} ... but also Emily Dickinson Edward Lear Stevie Smith Just a thot. (jetlagged) R. From halvard Fri Mar 5 09:29:03 2010 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri Mar 5 09:29:03 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets picking poets In-Reply-To: <06623230539345AFB317D4DBBDEAE651@RobinLaptopPC> References: <658300.86856.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <718495.69431.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <06623230539345AFB317D4DBBDEAE651@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: Nice to see those names in the same paragraph: Donne and Bradstreet. Hal follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest collection -- http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 9:54 AM, Robin Hamilton < robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote: > Amy King said: > > << > Interesting. So when poets pick poets, it evens out more. Editors choose, > it's male heavy and includes tokens. > >> >>> > FWIW, faced with a choice of The Last Book to carry back with me from the > US > of A to the UK (where I am a subject rather than a citizen), between Volume > 2 of _The Historical Dictionary of American Slang_ and the McElwrath and > Robb edition of the complete works of Anne Bradstreet, I decided on the > works of a female poet rather than a male lexicogapher. > > Eventually, someone's going to get the point that Anne Bradstreet is the > first American poet, and the third finest Metaphysical Poet ever, > period.end.finish (after Donne and Marvell but before George Herbert and > Henry Vaughan) but I suspect by then, I'll be dead and buried and long > forgotten. > > Robin > > (who is seriously jetlagged, having started, belatedly, on a flight between > Detroit and Amsterdam, to work his way through the Library of America > volume > of Ashbery, and who immediately thought [based on the first 15 poems in > _Some Trees_] that the obvious first names to spring connections to mind > are: > > Wallace Stevens > W.H.Auden > J.H.Prynne > > ... but that the second set of names would encompass: > > James Fenton {obviously} > > ... but also Emily Dickinson > Edward Lear > Stevie Smith > > Just a thot. > > (jetlagged) R. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100305/794a4652/attachment-0001.html From halvard Fri Mar 5 09:37:07 2010 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Fri Mar 5 09:37:07 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Query - Poem Commissions? In-Reply-To: <527918.96540.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <527918.96540.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Ask some composers. I know damned few of those who do work that's not on commission. Hal follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest collection -- http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 12:54 PM, amy king wrote: > So I commissioned a female artist not long ago to make some dolls of my > partner-in-crime, Ana, and myself. I can't tell you how thrilled I was when > they arrived today -- so much so that I posted a note and photos here -- > http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/04/strange-dolls/ > > But this got me to thinking, especially in relation to the film, "Who Does > She Think She Is?" (http://www.whodoesshethinksheis.net/) -- how many of > us are ever commissioned to sell our own art? How often do we support > artists who are making a go of doing such? Is it possible to write poems > for pay? Is there a way to start a trend, especially in the face of current > economic climate, that gets back to supporting the little artist toiling > away at her craft? Are you one of those artists who would be willing to > give it a whirl? > > I realize this raises a whole host of loaded issues (i.e. can creativity be > prompted by pay? Can a poet actually sell poems? Is this a call to pull > your dusty mimeograph and letterpress machines from the attics and > basements?), but I ask after finding out a poet I know has done as much, and > he's something of a name... and I'd like to open a discussion about such the > business of making a life as an artist in this country. Or are we all just > supplementing our lives with side art / "hobbies"? > > Best, > > Amy > > > _______* > > BOOK > > Slaves to Do These Things -- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm * > > RANT > > "My Barbaric Bitch of a Yawp" -- > http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2010/02/amy-king.html > > ESSAY > > "The *What Else*"-- > http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/Archives/Winter_2009/prose/A_King.html > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100305/dde938ae/attachment.html From grahamd Fri Mar 5 09:37:45 2010 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Fri Mar 5 09:37:45 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets picking poets In-Reply-To: <06623230539345AFB317D4DBBDEAE651@RobinLaptopPC> References: <658300.86856.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <718495.69431.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <06623230539345AFB317D4DBBDEAE651@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <038DF924-064A-4BFA-B2B7-29058A93D2E9@ripon.edu> On Mar 5, 2010, at 9:54 AM, Robin Hamilton wrote: > Eventually, someone's going to get the point that Anne Bradstreet is the > first American poet, and the third finest Metaphysical Poet ever, ================================= Oh, someone already got it, Robin! Don't know if there will be general agreement on Bradstreet's ranking among the Metaphysicals, but as for her being the first American poet, that's not in dispute, at least on this side of the Atlantic. That's exactly how she is presented in all the main teaching anthologies these days. Nor was it in dispute during her lifetime, actually: The Tenth Muse, Lately Sprung Up. . ., etc. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100305/ad4fe6ec/attachment.html From chris Fri Mar 5 09:43:30 2010 From: chris (Chris Lott) Date: Fri Mar 5 09:43:30 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets picking poets In-Reply-To: <7db1d01b1003041507l76d728bdx99efffa69f209a5f@mail.gmail.com> References: <7db1d01b1003041507l76d728bdx99efffa69f209a5f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: So far It's very enjoyable. I'm not even 1/3 through it. There are some interesting links in the chain, such as Atsuro Riley -> Kay Ryan -- it's fun to speculate a bit on why the poems were chosen (the implication given in the introduction is that each poet chose not just the following poet, but the specific poems. I'll surely feature the aforementioned pair in my reading notes when I get to that point. c On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 2:07 PM, Judy Prince wrote: > Sounds gorgeous, Chris----do you like the selections chosen, though? > Judy > > On 4 March 2010 15:29, Chris Lott wrote: >> >> I've been reading _The McSweeney's Book of Poets Picking Poets_, which >> is composed of "threads" beginning with the work of one poet who then >> picks the next poet and so on. >> >> Anyone know of other collections like this? Seems like a natural idea, >> and much more interesting than the generic assemblage of many >> anthologies... >> >> c >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > -- > Frisky Moll Press: ?http://judithprince.com/home.html > > http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ > > "I so rarely fuck up Jell-O." ?---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > From jbalizsprince Fri Mar 5 10:38:36 2010 From: jbalizsprince (Judy Prince) Date: Fri Mar 5 10:38:36 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets picking poets In-Reply-To: References: <658300.86856.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <718495.69431.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <06623230539345AFB317D4DBBDEAE651@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <7db1d01b1003050927s2268e18bta2353a2d4943f93f@mail.gmail.com> oh, the joy of it! On 5 March 2010 11:17, Halvard Johnson wrote: > Nice to see those names in the same paragraph: Donne and Bradstreet. > > Hal > > follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest > collection -- > > http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions > > Halvard Johnson > ================ > halvard at gmail.com > http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home > http://entropyandme.blogspot.com > http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com > http://www.hamiltonstone.org > > > > On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 9:54 AM, Robin Hamilton < > robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote: > >> Amy King said: >> >> << >> Interesting. So when poets pick poets, it evens out more. Editors >> choose, >> it's male heavy and includes tokens. >> >>> >>>> >> FWIW, faced with a choice of The Last Book to carry back with me from the >> US >> of A to the UK (where I am a subject rather than a citizen), between >> Volume >> 2 of _The Historical Dictionary of American Slang_ and the McElwrath and >> Robb edition of the complete works of Anne Bradstreet, I decided on the >> works of a female poet rather than a male lexicogapher. >> >> Eventually, someone's going to get the point that Anne Bradstreet is the >> first American poet, and the third finest Metaphysical Poet ever, >> period.end.finish (after Donne and Marvell but before George Herbert and >> Henry Vaughan) but I suspect by then, I'll be dead and buried and long >> forgotten. >> >> Robin >> >> (who is seriously jetlagged, having started, belatedly, on a flight >> between >> Detroit and Amsterdam, to work his way through the Library of America >> volume >> of Ashbery, and who immediately thought [based on the first 15 poems in >> _Some Trees_] that the obvious first names to spring connections to mind >> are: >> >> Wallace Stevens >> W.H.Auden >> J.H.Prynne >> >> ... but that the second set of names would encompass: >> >> James Fenton {obviously} >> >> ... but also Emily Dickinson >> Edward Lear >> Stevie Smith >> >> Just a thot. >> >> (jetlagged) R. >> >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ "I so rarely fuck up Jell-O." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100305/70f75f32/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Fri Mar 5 14:42:38 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri Mar 5 14:42:38 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] from Garrison's Almanac Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003051331q8caff21ma6e8e352eb932ad2@mail.gmail.com> Birthday Cake by Hayden Carruth For breakfast I have eaten the last of your birthday cake that you had left uneaten for five days and would have left five more before throwing it away. It is early March now. The winter of illness is ending. Across the valley patches of remaining snow make patterns among the hill farms, among fields and knolls and woodlots, like forms in a painting, as sure and significant as forms in a painting. The cake was stale. But I like stale cake, I even prefer it, which you don't understand, as I don't understand how you can open a new box of cereal when the old one is still unfinished. So many differences. You a woman, I a man, you still young at forty-two and I growing old at seventy. Yet how much we love one another. It seems a miracle. Not mystical, nothing occult, just the ordinary improbability that occurs over and over, the stupendousness of life. Out on the highway on the pavement wet with snow-melt, cars go whistling past. And our poetry, yours short-lined and sounding beautifully vulgar and bluesy in your woman's bitterness, and mine almost anything, unpredictable, though people say too ready a harkening back to the useless expressiveness and ardor of another era. But how lovely it was, that time in my restless memory. This is the season of mud and thrash, broken limbs and crushed briers from the winter storms, wetness and rust, the season of differences, articulable differences that signify deeper and inarticulable and almost paleolithic perplexities in our lives, and still we love one another. We love this house and this hillside by the highway in upstate New York. I am too old to write love songs now. I no longer assert that I love you, but that you love me, confident in my amazement. The spring will come soon. We will have more birthdays with cakes and wine. This valley will be full of flowers and birds. "Birthday Cake" by Hayden Carruth, from *Toward the Distant Islands: New & Selected Poems*. ? Copper Canyon Press, 2006. Reprinted with permission. (buy now ) -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100305/fbc9dbd2/attachment.html From robin.hamilton2 Sat Mar 6 04:53:13 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat Mar 6 04:53:13 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets picking poets In-Reply-To: <038DF924-064A-4BFA-B2B7-29058A93D2E9@ripon.edu> References: <658300.86856.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><718495.69431.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><06623230539345AFB317D4DBBDEAE651@RobinLaptopPC> <038DF924-064A-4BFA-B2B7-29058A93D2E9@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <7C1412CC75074CF9BF0084F016739FC8@RobinLaptopPC> Try teaching Anne Bradstreet this side of the Pond, David!!! You want to be a career Academic here, *don't teach Pound or Bradsteet or Langland. Actually, the problem I found -- and I blame the Brown Corpus Girls for this -- is that there's no decent text of AB. Frankly, my own experience, trying to teach any of the above three, is that it's a hiding to nothing. Negociating getting them on the syllabus is pretty easy, if you have even minimal smarts to work the committees. But then you give them to the kids. They simply don't seem to click. Scottish Literature is easy in comparison -- been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. Dunno why the students I taught didn't go a bundle on Anne Bradstreet. Thing was, they didn't. Henryson now, much to my surprise, was another matter -- after the usual howls of outrage about having to read Dead White Males in funny spelling, the kids seemed to fall over themselves to write essays on Henryson. Odd that, but. Maybe it's a girl thing -- up there on the hiding-to-nothing stakes is trying to teach Stevie Smith. I never even tried to teach Libby Houston. Against that, context, I was only able to teach any of the above by sneaking them into courses where nobody was looking. Like Lady Mary Wortley Montague. Sheesh, jimminy crisket, try teaching her!! Sad that but. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 11:26 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poets picking poets On Mar 5, 2010, at 9:54 AM, Robin Hamilton wrote: Eventually, someone's going to get the point that Anne Bradstreet is the first American poet, and the third finest Metaphysical Poet ever, ================================= Oh, someone already got it, Robin! Don't know if there will be general agreement on Bradstreet's ranking among the Metaphysicals, but as for her being the first American poet, that's not in dispute, at least on this side of the Atlantic. That's exactly how she is presented in all the main teaching anthologies these days. Nor was it in dispute during her lifetime, actually: The Tenth Muse, Lately Sprung Up. . ., etc. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100306/671560f4/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Sat Mar 6 09:31:39 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat Mar 6 09:31:39 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] the HEALTH & ILLNESS Anthology Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003060820w2eedd55bxac8c92a9862ca859@mail.gmail.com> We are pleased to announce the HEALTH & ILLNESS Anthology with our felt acknowledgment to all those who sent their poems and visual work. An enormous accomplishment that is officially unveiled on a freezing Satur(n)/day here in the Alps and a terribly hot day in Nigeria, with an epileptic electricity supply that forces people to seek refuge under the trees outside: *?* Editorial - Obododimma Oha- *?* Editorial - Anny Ballardini- *?* Michael Rothenberg *?* Dennis Barone *?* Daniel Zimmerman & Mom *?* Ned Condini *?* Elizabeth Smither *?* Douglas Clark *?* Jeff Harrison *?* John M. Bennett *?* Tony Trigilio *?* Peter Ganick *?* Charlotte Mandel *?* Ingrid Wendt *?* Sohrab Sepehri *?* Geoffrey Gatza *?* Wendy Carlisle *?* Peter Ciccariello *?* Jim Leftwich *?* Marilyn Hacker *?* Ric Carfagne *?* Jessica Fiorini *?* George Bowering *?* M?rton Kopp?ny *?* Silvia Levenson *?* Jameela ?Nishat? *?* Hoshang Merchant *?* Halvard Johnson *?* Meg Withers *?* Christina Pacosz *?* Ruth Fainlight *?* Jerry McGuire *?* Jerry McGuire - 2nd part *?* Evelyn Posamentier *?* Evelyn Posamentier 2nd Part *?* Wendy Vardaman *?* Malaika King Albrecht *?* Grzegorz Wr?blewski *?* Rebecca Seiferle *?* Luc Fierens *?* Helen Ruggieri *?* Ed Baker *?* Daniel Godston *?* David Howard *?* Fan Ogilvie *?* Christopher Flynn *?* Nuri Gene Cos *?* Penelope Scambly Schott *?* Alan Sondheim Part 1 *?* Alan Sondheim Part 2 *?* Alan Sondheim Part 3 *?* Alan Sondheim Part 4 *?* Alan Sondheim Part 5 *?* Eileen Tabios *?* Barry Alpert *?* Jean Vengua and Michael A. Fink *?* Kathrine Durham Oldmixon *?* Sarah Rae * ?* harry k stammer *?* Amy MacLennan *?* Margo Berdeshevsky *?* Obiwu *?* Marco Giovenale *?* Tom Savage *?* Richard Dillon *?* Drew Riley *?* Richard M. Berlin *?* Sola Olatunji *?* Musa Idris Okpanachi *?* Elizabeth Oakes *?* Marian Veverka *?* Judith E. Johnson *?* Penny Harter *?* Emma Bolden *?* Marjory Wentworth *?* Obododimma Oha With our best wishes, The Editors Obododimma Oha and Anny Ballardini -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100306/13a936df/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Sat Mar 6 13:22:32 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat Mar 6 13:22:32 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] the HEALTH & ILLNESS Anthology Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003061211h3fe1b5c4l83f615dea3c06cf8@mail.gmail.com> I forgot the main link, the direct link to the anthology! http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=Content&pa=list_pages_categories&cid=361 -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100306/db1f2826/attachment.html From robin.hamilton2 Sat Mar 6 14:24:38 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat Mar 6 14:24:38 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] poets picking poets In-Reply-To: <038DF924-064A-4BFA-B2B7-29058A93D2E9@ripon.edu> References: <658300.86856.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><718495.69431.qm@web83306.mail.sp1.yahoo.com><06623230539345AFB317D4DBBDEAE651@RobinLaptopPC> <038DF924-064A-4BFA-B2B7-29058A93D2E9@ripon.edu> Message-ID: Try teaching Anne Bradstreet this side of the Pond, David!!! You want to be a Career Academic here, *don't teach Pound or Bradsteet or Langland. Actually, the problem I found -- and I blame the Brown Corpus Girls for this -- is that there's no decent text of AB. Frankly, my own experience, trying to teach any of the above three, is that it's a hiding to nothing. Negociating getting them on the syllabus is pretty easy, if you have even minimal smarts to work the committees. But then you give them to the kids. They simply don't seem to click. Scottish Literature is easy in comparison -- been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. Dunno why the students I taught didn't go a bundle on Anne Bradstreet. Thing was, they didn't. Henryson now, much to my surprise, was another matter -- after the usual howls of outrage about having to read Dead White Males in funny spelling, the kids seemed to fall over themselves to write essays on Henryson. Odd that, but. Maybe it's a girl thing -- up there on the hiding-to-nothing stakes is trying to teach Stevie Smith. I never even tried to teach Libby Houston. Against that, context, I was only able to teach any of the above by sneaking them into courses where nobody was looking. Like Lady Mary Wortley Montague. Sheesh, jimminy crisket, try teaching her!! Sad that but. Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: David Graham To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views Sent: Friday, March 05, 2010 11:26 AM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] poets picking poets On Mar 5, 2010, at 9:54 AM, Robin Hamilton wrote: Eventually, someone's going to get the point that Anne Bradstreet is the first American poet, and the third finest Metaphysical Poet ever, ================================= Oh, someone already got it, Robin! Don't know if there will be general agreement on Bradstreet's ranking among the Metaphysicals, but as for her being the first American poet, that's not in dispute, at least on this side of the Atlantic. That's exactly how she is presented in all the main teaching anthologies these days. Nor was it in dispute during her lifetime, actually: The Tenth Muse, Lately Sprung Up. . ., etc. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100306/e4e97bf0/attachment.html From ccooley Sat Mar 6 16:58:51 2010 From: ccooley (Crisman Cooley) Date: Sat Mar 6 16:58:51 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Wiki Message-ID: Okay, I'm ready to create a new Poetry Wiki along the lines suggested in posts by Robin, Mark, Catherine, Judy, and others. Wikia looks easy so we could use that. Clearly this won't work unless a number of people are interested in contributing time & expertise. I don't know how attribution works in wikis, but my thought is to give attribution to contributors. You could also use this on your resume (haha). Also, I think that the evils of peer review are far outweighed by the benefit of credibility, and so peer review should be included, but in a way that eliminates 'tyranny of the majority'. Reviews could perhaps be limited to factual questions and not esthetic ones. Contributors could also suggest reviewers who could be approved by the group, etc. A few questions: 1. Who on new-poetry would be willing to contribute? How often? Frequently, occasionally, rarely? [For myself: I could contribute occasionally, and would tend to defer to the teachers of poetry on the list. ] == 2. What is the purpose or what are the purposes of the poetry wiki? A. For Learning About Poetry [I suggest: a place where a self-directed learner could go to find 1) autodidactic poetry reading list(s) that outline the poetic canon of poetry written in English up to, say, 1960; 2) recommended & peer-reviewed list of contemporary poets and their most important work, 1960 - present; 3) these lists available as text & recordings (if available); 4) cross index all with music & art of the period (love this idea); 5) strategies for writing poetry; 6) essays on poets & poems; 7) history of prosody; 8) contemporary prosody... 9) All this could be organized as a curriculum or simply chronologically. B. Doing the Work of Posterity by Voting on Which Contemporary Writers belong in the Canon [very difficult & contentious, but perhaps could be done with an eye to history rather than on self-and-friends-and-people-like-me promotion...] Your ideas? == 3. What should we call it? [The name Poetry Academy Online appears to be unique. There is a website called PoetryAcademy.org for sale for $30,000. haha ] What do you think? == 4. What questions am I forgetting? If there is sufficient interest, I'll get it started -- based on response to this post. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100306/95bfb2c1/attachment.html From bobgrumman Sat Mar 6 18:38:39 2010 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat Mar 6 18:38:39 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Wiki In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B9301F2.2000901@nut-n-but.net> Crisman Cooley wrote: > > A few questions: > 1. Who on new-poetry would be willing to contribute? I'd be willing to contribute comments for the peers, whoever they are, to reject every once in a while. At least once a week. --Bob From robin.hamilton2 Sat Mar 6 19:48:10 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat Mar 6 19:48:10 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Wiki In-Reply-To: <4B9301F2.2000901@nut-n-but.net> References: <4B9301F2.2000901@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <8440C567D1D44202A33A34218CA52390@RobinLaptopPC> OK, I'll go with that. At least once a week. For starters (would this count?) I could list The Fifteen Essential Cant Poems. (I might have to lodge the texts somewhere, as I think only ten are even remotely available online.) As to metrics ... I don't mind who does this, but can we at least have a notice of the six different metres which exist. Stress Syllable-Accent Quantitative Syllabics Dipodic Free Verse. -- this might already be loaded, as I can't see a born-again New Formalist agreeing with Bob Grumman in this area. Yes to attribution (initials maybe) -- less for the ego trip aspect, more that anonymity confers a specious authority. And there should be the possibility of disagreement. Go, Crisman, go boy. Go, go, go!!! Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 8:31 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry Wiki > Crisman Cooley wrote: >> >> A few questions: >> 1. Who on new-poetry would be willing to contribute? > I'd be willing to contribute comments for the peers, whoever they are, to > reject every once in a while. > > At least once a week. > > --Bob > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > From anny.ballardini Sun Mar 7 07:08:36 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun Mar 7 07:08:36 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: "The Gateless Gate-" Concluding Pages In-Reply-To: <982BD8BC35A244448408E1D476578996@DBHJMLF1> References: <982BD8BC35A244448408E1D476578996@DBHJMLF1> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003070557pc84fddfsa1a9ae94f2e0f2ac@mail.gmail.com> I think that Joel Weishaus's work is superb: *Dear All:* *These are the concluding pages [10 texts/ten images] of "The Gateless Gate": http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282/Gate-R/Pgs%2051-52R.htm * *From the beginning: http://web.pdx.edu/~pdx00282/Gate-R/Cover-R.htm * ** *Entire project at archive site: **http://www.cddc.vt.edu/host/weishaus/Gate-R/Cover-R.htm* [Best viewed with MS Explorer browser; text size : medium] ** *Thank you so much for your readings and critiques, as The Gateless Gate developed over the past year. * ** *My Warm Regards.* *Joel * -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100307/0302f613/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Sun Mar 7 08:03:55 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun Mar 7 08:03:55 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry Wiki In-Reply-To: <8440C567D1D44202A33A34218CA52390@RobinLaptopPC> References: <4B9301F2.2000901@nut-n-but.net> <8440C567D1D44202A33A34218CA52390@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003070652n6cf59700qb82c232e235b289f@mail.gmail.com> Dear Crisman, as you know I have the Poets' Corner that eats down all those energies that should be considered the free energies given to people who work to invest as they best think. I therefore cannot promise a great commitment, but I do promise that I will pop up whenever I can and let you know if I find anything that I might think does not work, or I will praise you for what I find interesting. Before you throw away too much time, I would like to let you know that there are superb sites online I have used repeatedly. In the field of rhetoric: my favorite is Silva Rhetoricae: http://humanities.byu.edu/rhetoric/Silva.htm As per verse the Poetry Foundation, among other, have been working: http://www.poetryfoundation.org/search.html?q=verse&x=0&y=0 And don't forget to quote James Finnegan's major Herculean effort in drawing together all the titles for an ARS POETICA LIBRARY ! http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3126 Be well, and keep happy, Anny On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 3:36 AM, Robin Hamilton < robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote: > OK, I'll go with that. At least once a week. > > For starters (would this count?) I could list The Fifteen Essential Cant > Poems. (I might have to lodge the texts somewhere, as I think only ten are > even remotely available online.) > > As to metrics ... > > I don't mind who does this, but can we at least have a notice of the six > different metres which exist. > > Stress > Syllable-Accent > Quantitative > Syllabics > Dipodic > Free Verse. > > -- this might already be loaded, as I can't see a born-again New Formalist > agreeing with Bob Grumman in this area. > > Yes to attribution (initials maybe) -- less for the ego trip aspect, more > that anonymity confers a specious authority. And there should be the > possibility of disagreement. > > Go, Crisman, go boy. Go, go, go!!! > > Robin > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 8:31 PM > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry Wiki > > > > Crisman Cooley wrote: >> >>> >>> A few questions: >>> 1. Who on new-poetry would be willing to contribute? >>> >> I'd be willing to contribute comments for the peers, whoever they are, to >> reject every once in a while. >> >> At least once a week. >> >> --Bob >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100307/8f649999/attachment.html From pastoral Mon Mar 8 09:44:53 2010 From: pastoral (Pastor Al Schirmacher) Date: Mon Mar 8 09:44:53 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who is our audience? Message-ID: <017a01cabedc$e5446db0$7e01a8c0@PASTORAL> Much verse reminds me of Gang artwork on the side of railroad cars Creative, colorful But indecipherable except for chosen few Al Schirmacher (Not meant acrimoniously; in fact, original title is "Note to Self, or Pardon the Slam") -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100308/47fe9f84/attachment.html From Opus40-01 Mon Mar 8 10:01:44 2010 From: Opus40-01 (TheOldMole) Date: Mon Mar 8 10:01:44 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Who is our audience? In-Reply-To: <017a01cabedc$e5446db0$7e01a8c0@PASTORAL> References: <017a01cabedc$e5446db0$7e01a8c0@PASTORAL> Message-ID: <4B952AF4.9000709@opus40.org> One difference is that gang artwork on the side of railroad cars can bring 6-figure prices. Pastor Al Schirmacher wrote: > > Much verse reminds me of > > Gang artwork on the side of railroad cars > > > > Creative, colorful > > But indecipherable except for chosen few > > Al Schirmacher > (Not meant acrimoniously; in fact, original title is "Note to Self, or > Pardon the Slam") > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Tad Richards Read my NY Writing Careers Examiner column today! http://www.examiner.com/x-2862-NY-Writing-Careers-Examiner http://www.opus40.org/tadrichards/ http://opusforty.blogspot.com/ From ccooley Mon Mar 8 14:19:39 2010 From: ccooley (Crisman Cooley) Date: Mon Mar 8 14:19:39 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 69, Issue 20 In-Reply-To: <201003071700.o27H04bm028982@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <201003071700.o27H04bm028982@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: Anny, Thank you so much -- this is a gift. I can hear that you speak from experience. I'll look at the sites you mention and do some further research to make sure we're not starting something that someone else is doing better already. Also, I think the purpose of the wiki needs further definition. I invite more ideas from other people. If we could collectively do 1 important thing better than any other site, then the effort could be useful. Also, the reality for me is that I have very little time for this for about the next year or so. However, it would only take a few minutes to set up the wiki that others could pitch in on with their discretionary time. My role here is limited to speaking the possibility into existence, since I'm neither a teacher nor a poet in the usual sense. [In fact the only reason I've followed the rigorous _ABC_ curriculum, including learning other languages, translating, etc, is to learn the craft well enough to complete a book I started writing 14 years ago; I've wanted the language of this work to be "charged with meaning to the utmost possible degree." (Pound, _ABC_, p28) For this reason, I consider myself to be only an 'applied poet', (learning enough to complete this book) not a 'general poet' (a professional writer of verse who holds him/herself to standards of the craft, etc). Your words come from a concern that speaks to me directly: 'spend your time wisely'. I'm indebted to you for that. >> Before you throw away too much time, I would like to let you know that there are superb sites online I have used repeatedly. << Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 15:52:50 +0100 > From: Anny Ballardini > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry Wiki > > Dear Crisman, > > as you know I have the Poets' Corner that eats down all those energies that > should be considered the free energies given to people who work to invest > as > they best think. I therefore cannot promise a great commitment, but I do > promise that I will pop up whenever I can and let you know if I find > anything that I might think does not work, or I will praise you for what I > find interesting. Before you throw away too much time, I would like to let > you know that there are superb sites online I have used repeatedly. In the > field of rhetoric: my favorite is Silva Rhetoricae: > http://humanities.byu.edu/rhetoric/Silva.htm > > As per verse the Poetry Foundation, among other, have been working: > http://www.poetryfoundation.org/search.html?q=verse&x=0&y=0 > > And don't forget to quote James Finnegan's major Herculean effort in > drawing > together all the titles for an ARS POETICA LIBRARY ! > http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3126 > > Be well, and keep happy, > Anny > > > > On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 3:36 AM, Robin Hamilton < > robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote: > > > OK, I'll go with that. At least once a week. > > > > For starters (would this count?) I could list The Fifteen Essential Cant > > Poems. (I might have to lodge the texts somewhere, as I think only ten > are > > even remotely available online.) > > > > As to metrics ... > > > > I don't mind who does this, but can we at least have a notice of the six > > different metres which exist. > > > > Stress > > Syllable-Accent > > Quantitative > > Syllabics > > Dipodic > > Free Verse. > > > > -- this might already be loaded, as I can't see a born-again New > Formalist > > agreeing with Bob Grumman in this area. > > > > Yes to attribution (initials maybe) -- less for the ego trip aspect, more > > that anonymity confers a specious authority. And there should be the > > possibility of disagreement. > > > > Go, Crisman, go boy. Go, go, go!!! > > > > Robin > > > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" < > bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net > > > > > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" < > > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > > Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 8:31 PM > > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry Wiki > > > > > > > > Crisman Cooley wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> A few questions: > >>> 1. Who on new-poetry would be willing to contribute? > >>> > >> I'd be willing to contribute comments for the peers, whoever they are, > to > >> reject every once in a while. > >> > >> At least once a week. > >> > >> --Bob > >> _______________________________________________ > >> New-Poetry mailing list > >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > New-Poetry mailing list > > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > -------------- next part -------------- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100307/8f649999/attachment-0001.html > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 69, Issue 20 > ****************************************** > -- Crisman Cooley +1.805.426.5167 (int'l skype) +1.805.252.2421 (US cell) -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100308/fea6ca15/attachment.html From amyhappens Mon Mar 8 20:55:21 2010 From: amyhappens (amy king) Date: Mon Mar 8 20:55:21 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] From Ron Silliman's post on International Women's Day Message-ID: <549856.14589.qm@web83308.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I hate to admit that this situation was perceived, at least by myself & the male poets I knew, as ?normal? back in the 1960s, but it was... So that when Kathleen Fraser ? that name again ? joined with some like-minded friends in 1983 to create HOW(ever), the timing was perfect: it proved to be an epoch-making event... Still, nothing has done more to change ? blur, to some degree even erase ? the faultlines for poetry in my lifetime than the mass emergence of women writing. For all of the problems that I have with the concept of hybridity in poetry, I can?t escape the fact that for many writers, especially those younger than myself, the bifurcation of poetry into two counter-posing traditions is experienced as a quarrel among men (white men at that), and that the landscape of poetry in the English language now looks entirely different. Not that all is perfect. Far from it. It is still possible to have a major award shortlist that consists entirely of men, even though everyone now seems to concede that the absolute majority of poets writing in English are women. Further, this disparity continues to turn up in some of the ways women writers express themselves. Of the 1192 active blogs on my blogroll, 392 are written by women, slightly under 33 percent. For the next week, the top list on my new links page will consist of nothing but these women (and, knowing Blogger, that may be the only list visible). Now, it?s conceivable that one of the reasons for this disparity is me ? if I?m missing anyone, send me an email and let me know. It?s also true that not all of the collective blogs are exclusively by men ? Give a Fig missed this list because one of its 13 contributors is male. But the distance between the 25 percent figure that marked the participation by women in In the American Tree in 1986 and the 32.9 percent in my blogroll 24 years later is not the sign of a successful revolution so much as it is of one still very much in process. Women who blog about poetry, poetics & the arts CONT -- http://ronsilliman.blogspot.com/2010/03/early-editors-of-however-l-to-r-bev.html _______ BOOK Slaves to Do These Things-- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm RANT "My Barbaric Bitch of a Yawp" -- http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2010/02/amy-king.html ESSAY "The What Else"-- http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/Archives/Winter_2009/prose/A_King.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100308/8fb22a92/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Mon Mar 8 21:19:47 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Mar 8 21:19:47 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 69, Issue 20 In-Reply-To: References: <201003071700.o27H04bm028982@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003082008l5033f097q3aaf6ce64296ecec@mail.gmail.com> Crisman, I did not really mean it that way. What I wanted to say is that, instead of writing of rhetoric, just link to Silva Rhetoricae. And congratulations for your work - I also revere Pound's ABC. Best wishes, Anny On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 10:08 PM, Crisman Cooley wrote: > Anny, > Thank you so much -- this is a gift. I can hear that you speak from > experience. I'll look at the sites you mention and do some further research > to make sure we're not starting something that someone else is doing better > already. Also, I think the purpose of the wiki needs further definition. I > invite more ideas from other people. If we could collectively do 1 important > thing better than any other site, then the effort could be useful. > > Also, the reality for me is that I have very little time for this for about > the next year or so. However, it would only take a few minutes to set up the > wiki that others could pitch in on with their discretionary time. > > My role here is limited to speaking the possibility into existence, since > I'm neither a teacher nor a poet in the usual sense. [In fact the only > reason I've followed the rigorous _ABC_ curriculum, including learning other > languages, translating, etc, is to learn the craft well enough to complete a > book I started writing 14 years ago; I've wanted the language of this work > to be "charged with meaning to the utmost possible degree." (Pound, _ABC_, > p28) For this reason, I consider myself to be only an 'applied poet', > (learning enough to complete this book) not a 'general poet' (a professional > writer of verse who holds him/herself to standards of the craft, etc). > > Your words come from a concern that speaks to me directly: 'spend your time > wisely'. I'm indebted to you for that. > > >> > Before you throw away too much time, I would like to let > you know that there are superb sites online I have used repeatedly. > << > > > Date: Sun, 7 Mar 2010 15:52:50 +0100 >> From: Anny Ballardini >> Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry Wiki >> >> Dear Crisman, >> >> as you know I have the Poets' Corner that eats down all those energies >> that >> should be considered the free energies given to people who work to invest >> as >> they best think. I therefore cannot promise a great commitment, but I do >> promise that I will pop up whenever I can and let you know if I find >> anything that I might think does not work, or I will praise you for what I >> find interesting. Before you throw away too much time, I would like to let >> you know that there are superb sites online I have used repeatedly. In the >> field of rhetoric: my favorite is Silva Rhetoricae: >> http://humanities.byu.edu/rhetoric/Silva.htm >> >> As per verse the Poetry Foundation, among other, have been working: >> http://www.poetryfoundation.org/search.html?q=verse&x=0&y=0 >> >> And don't forget to quote James Finnegan's major Herculean effort in >> drawing >> together all the titles for an ARS POETICA LIBRARY ! >> http://www.fieralingue.it/corner.php?pa=printpage&pid=3126 >> >> Be well, and keep happy, >> Anny >> >> >> >> On Sun, Mar 7, 2010 at 3:36 AM, Robin Hamilton < >> robin.hamilton2 at btinternet.com> wrote: >> >> > OK, I'll go with that. At least once a week. >> > >> > For starters (would this count?) I could list The Fifteen Essential Cant >> > Poems. (I might have to lodge the texts somewhere, as I think only ten >> are >> > even remotely available online.) >> > >> > As to metrics ... >> > >> > I don't mind who does this, but can we at least have a notice of the six >> > different metres which exist. >> > >> > Stress >> > Syllable-Accent >> > Quantitative >> > Syllabics >> > Dipodic >> > Free Verse. >> > >> > -- this might already be loaded, as I can't see a born-again New >> Formalist >> > agreeing with Bob Grumman in this area. >> > >> > Yes to attribution (initials maybe) -- less for the ego trip aspect, >> more >> > that anonymity confers a specious authority. And there should be the >> > possibility of disagreement. >> > >> > Go, Crisman, go boy. Go, go, go!!! >> > >> > Robin >> > >> > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bob Grumman" < >> bobgrumman at nut-n-but.net >> > > >> > To: "NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &Views" < >> > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> >> > Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2010 8:31 PM >> > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Poetry Wiki >> > >> > >> > >> > Crisman Cooley wrote: >> >> >> >>> >> >>> A few questions: >> >>> 1. Who on new-poetry would be willing to contribute? >> >>> >> >> I'd be willing to contribute comments for the peers, whoever they are, >> to >> >> reject every once in a while. >> >> >> >> At least once a week. >> >> >> >> --Bob >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> New-Poetry mailing list >> >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> >> >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > New-Poetry mailing list >> > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> > >> >> >> >> -- >> Anny Ballardini >> http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ >> http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome >> http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 >> http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html >> I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing >> star! >> Friedrich Nietzsche >> >> ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique >> vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? >> Giovenale >> -------------- next part -------------- >> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... >> URL: >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100307/8f649999/attachment-0001.html >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> >> End of New-Poetry Digest, Vol 69, Issue 20 >> ****************************************** >> > > > > -- > Crisman Cooley > +1.805.426.5167 (int'l skype) > +1.805.252.2421 (US cell) > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100309/af0c8ee4/attachment.html From jforjames Mon Mar 8 22:31:50 2010 From: jforjames (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Mar 8 22:31:50 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] How you can become the most important poet in America overnight Message-ID: <8CC8D5F683F1B34-47E4-6B06@webmail-d064.sysops.aol.com> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/08/poetry-and-ruthless-caree_n_490451.html 24/7 Relentless Careerism: How you can become the most important poet in America overnight Jim Behrle The Poetry Foundation [Editor's note: This talk was originally delivered in slightly different form at the St. Mark's Poetry Project on January 25, 2010.] Let's just begin by saying that there are more poets than ever before in the history of literature--and therefore more magazines, reading series, and tiny publishers. There are probably 800 or so active writing programs in the United States alone. I could have looked up the actual number, but facts don't actually matter. If I say that Obama is a strong and effective president over and over again, it makes him a strong and effective president. Be louder and say simple things over and over again, and you will triumph in any debate or forum. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100309/8b7a1c18/attachment.html From amyhappens Tue Mar 9 11:15:35 2010 From: amyhappens (amy king) Date: Tue Mar 9 11:15:35 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] How to Say What You Haven't Yet Message-ID: <653138.99456.qm@web83307.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Response in kind -- http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/09/how-to-say-what-you-havent/ Enjoy! Amy _______ BOOK Slaves to Do These Things-- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm RANT "My Barbaric Bitch of a Yawp" -- http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2010/02/amy-king.html ESSAY "The What Else"-- http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/Archives/Winter_2009/prose/A_King.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100309/cf50f460/attachment.html From obodooha Tue Mar 9 11:15:46 2010 From: obodooha (Obododimma Oha) Date: Tue Mar 9 11:15:46 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Listserv and the Least Served Message-ID: "As a context for sharing ideas, online resources, information, etc, listserv is, nevertheless, immensely useful to its subscribers. It is a context of education and consciousness-raising. A listserv that has specific professional commitments helps its members in their professional development a great deal and thus becomes indispensable as the imagined place to meet with those who know "the way." These days that education in a country like Nigeria is in great travail, having access to the Internet and subscribing to a listserv where sound professional sharing goes on could be one way of maintaining one's intellectual wellbeing. Everyday one reads listserv postings and the resources shared, one has truly answered "present" in a classroom with little or no tuition paid." Read the full text of "The Listserv and the Least Served" at: http://234next.com/csp/cms/sites/Next/Opinion/5537716-184/shibboleth_the_listserv_and_the_least.csp -- Obododimma Oha http://udude.wordpress.com/ Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604; +234 808 264 8060. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100309/1cc1cb64/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Tue Mar 9 14:23:44 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Tue Mar 9 14:23:44 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Listserv and the Least Served In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003091313i31de0e42l8ddddfe4e38f3e04@mail.gmail.com> You talk of Nigeria... I don't think Italy is too distant. An interesting article. Couldn't they fit your pic a little better? I know the question is trivial, On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Obododimma Oha wrote: > "As a context for sharing ideas, online resources, information, etc, > listserv is, nevertheless, immensely useful to its subscribers. It is a > context of education and consciousness-raising. A listserv that has specific > professional commitments helps its members in their professional development > a great deal and thus becomes indispensable as the imagined place to meet > with those who know "the way." > > These days that education in a country like Nigeria is in great travail, > having access to the Internet and subscribing to a listserv where sound > professional sharing goes on could be one way of maintaining one's > intellectual wellbeing. Everyday one reads listserv postings and the > resources shared, one has truly answered "present" in a classroom with > little or no tuition paid." > > Read the full text of "The Listserv and the Least Served" > at: > > > http://234next.com/csp/cms/sites/Next/Opinion/5537716-184/shibboleth_the_listserv_and_the_least.csp > > -- > Obododimma Oha > http://udude.wordpress.com/ > > Dept. of English > University of Ibadan > Nigeria > > & > > Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies > University of Ibadan > > Phone: +234 803 333 1330; > +234 805 350 6604; > +234 808 264 8060. > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100309/65a7ec4f/attachment.html From amyhappens Tue Mar 9 15:42:11 2010 From: amyhappens (amy king) Date: Tue Mar 9 15:42:11 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] On poets "earning their keep" one poem at a time... Message-ID: <197784.24062.qm@web83301.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/09/two-poets-earning-their-keep/ Answers/speculations/questions welcome! Amy _______ BOOK Slaves to Do These Things-- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm RANT "My Barbaric Bitch of a Yawp" -- http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2010/02/amy-king.html ESSAY "The What Else"-- http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/Archives/Winter_2009/prose/A_King.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100309/af6af80a/attachment.html From junction Tue Mar 9 17:49:00 2010 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Tue Mar 9 17:49:00 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] A wonderful website Message-ID: http://www.nls.uk/broadsides/. "The Word on the Street." British broadsides. Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100309/440bfb33/attachment.html From obodooha Wed Mar 10 09:16:16 2010 From: obodooha (Obododimma Oha) Date: Wed Mar 10 09:16:16 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Listserv and the Least Served In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71003091313i31de0e42l8ddddfe4e38f3e04@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d71003091313i31de0e42l8ddddfe4e38f3e04@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: You are right, Anny. Italy isn't too distant. There are some common characteristics in listserv engagements. My pic? Well, I guess they sometimes have difficulties with these things.... Will talk to them especially since my column features every week. Regards. Obododimma. On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 1:13 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > You talk of Nigeria... I don't think Italy is too distant. > An interesting article. Couldn't they fit your pic a little better? I know > the question is trivial, > > On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Obododimma Oha wrote: > >> "As a context for sharing ideas, online resources, information, etc, >> listserv is, nevertheless, immensely useful to its subscribers. It is a >> context of education and consciousness-raising. A listserv that has specific >> professional commitments helps its members in their professional development >> a great deal and thus becomes indispensable as the imagined place to meet >> with those who know "the way." >> >> These days that education in a country like Nigeria is in great travail, >> having access to the Internet and subscribing to a listserv where sound >> professional sharing goes on could be one way of maintaining one's >> intellectual wellbeing. Everyday one reads listserv postings and the >> resources shared, one has truly answered "present" in a classroom with >> little or no tuition paid." >> >> Read the full text of "The Listserv and the Least Served" >> at: >> >> >> http://234next.com/csp/cms/sites/Next/Opinion/5537716-184/shibboleth_the_listserv_and_the_least.csp >> >> -- >> Obododimma Oha >> http://udude.wordpress.com/ >> >> Dept. of English >> University of Ibadan >> Nigeria >> >> & >> >> Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies >> University of Ibadan >> >> Phone: +234 803 333 1330; >> +234 805 350 6604; >> +234 808 264 8060. >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> New-Poetry mailing list >> New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >> http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry >> >> > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Obododimma Oha http://udude.wordpress.com/ Dept. of English University of Ibadan Nigeria & Fellow, Centre for Peace & Conflict Studies University of Ibadan Phone: +234 803 333 1330; +234 805 350 6604; +234 808 264 8060. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100310/8d54576a/attachment.html From amyhappens Wed Mar 10 12:34:07 2010 From: amyhappens (amy king) Date: Wed Mar 10 12:34:07 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Somebody likes me after all... Message-ID: <369847.7985.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Up on HTML Giant -- http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ Don't fall in, Amy _______ BOOK Slaves to Do These Things-- http://www.blazevox.org/bk-ak3.htm RANT "My Barbaric Bitch of a Yawp" -- http://delirioushem.blogspot.com/2010/02/amy-king.html ESSAY "The What Else"-- http://english.chass.ncsu.edu/freeverse/Archives/Winter_2009/prose/A_King.html -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100310/bfd61c2a/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Wed Mar 10 16:31:31 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Wed Mar 10 16:31:31 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Prosodic Narratives in the Poetry of Ezra Pound and William Carlos Williams Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003101520ra960372rd7b39445dc5a96ad@mail.gmail.com> Call for MLA papers, Los Angeles, January 2011: A collaborative panel sponsored by the Ezra Pound and William Carlos Williams Societies "Prosodic Narratives in the Poetry of Ezra Pound and William Carlos Williams" Possible topics: the role and the construction of the rhythmic and sonic elements of verse and prose in Pound and Williams poetry, especially The Cantos and Paterson; prosody as an element in the long poems narrative; echoes of and/or transcriptions from poetic and narrative texts made new in Pound and Williams modernist texts; the poetics of prosody and/or narrative in Pound and Williams long poems . . . 250-word abstract and brief c.v. by March 12, 2010, to Demetres P. Tryphonopoulos (demetres at unb.ca). Abstracts will be reviewed by co- organizers Demetres P. Tryphonopoulos, Alec Marsh and Ian Copestake. Demetrioss P. Tryphonopoulos University Research Professor A/Dean, School of Graduate Studies and Professor, Dept. of English Book Reviews Editor, Paideuma Sir Howard Douglas Hall, Room 317, 3 Bailey Drive, Fredericton, NB, Canada E3B 5A3 Tel: 506-453-4673; Fax: 506-453-4817; Demetres at unb.ca; www.unb.ca/gradschol -- Dr. Ian Copestake Secretary/Treasurer, William Carlos Williams Society http://english.ttu.edu/WCWR/ www.lektorat-copestake.eu www.fineartcopy.net Mailing address: Ian Copestake Rebenstrasse 3 60599 Frankfurt am Main Germany -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100311/77757978/attachment.html From pihel_e Thu Mar 11 09:33:10 2010 From: pihel_e (Erik Pihel) Date: Thu Mar 11 09:33:10 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World Message-ID: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100311/9eabadff/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Thu Mar 11 10:37:53 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu Mar 11 10:37:53 2010 Subject: Fwd: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World In-Reply-To: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003110927j24d06289i8f8a5dd30a486fe3@mail.gmail.com> If anyone knows of good subway poems for LightCages.com, please let me know. So far, we've got Pound in the Paris metro, Heaney in a London tube station, Alice Notley and Tom Waits in New York, as well as Vergil in Rome's underground and Dante in Florence. ========================== Light Cages is an inside view into the earth's underground trains. Ever wonder what it's like to ride a Tokyo subway? Or a London tube? Or a Berlin u-bahn? You can view the official maps and transportation guides from various government websites, but Light Cages takes you inside the trains where things are less orderly and predictable. http://www.lightcages.com The scenes are written, photographed, or filmed by passengers who either live or have visited the various underworlds in question. So click the link and explore characters not found in the official brochures. If you have met one of these characters, or are such a character yourself, please join the underground by submitting a scene of your own. Erik Pihel, Editor Light Cages editor at lightcages.com http://www.facebook.com/pages/LightCagescom/331464632498 http://www.youtube.com/user/LightCagesDotCom _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100311/15c7a22e/attachment.html From skip Thu Mar 11 11:53:09 2010 From: skip (Skip Fox) Date: Thu Mar 11 11:53:09 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World In-Reply-To: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: Hart Crane's The Bridge, section 7: "The Tunnel." -----Original Message----- From: new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu [mailto:new-poetry-bounces at wiz.cath.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Erik Pihel Sent: Thursday, March 11, 2010 10:23 AM To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World If anyone knows of good subway poems for LightCages.com, please let me know. So far, we've got Pound in the Paris metro, Heaney in a London tube station, Alice Notley and Tom Waits in New York, as well as Vergil in Rome's underground and Dante in Florence. ========================== Light Cages is an inside view into the earth's underground trains. Ever wonder what it's like to ride a Tokyo subway? Or a London tube? Or a Berlin u-bahn? You can view the official maps and transportation guides from various government websites, but Light Cages takes you inside the trains where things are less orderly and predictable. http://www.lightcages.com The scenes are written, photographed, or filmed by passengers who either live or have visited the various underworlds in question. So click the link and explore characters not found in the official brochures. If you have met one of these characters, or are such a character yourself, please join the underground by submitting a scene of your own. Erik Pihel, Editor Light Cages editor at lightcages.com http://www.facebook.com/pages/LightCagescom/331464632498 http://www.youtube.com/user/LightCagesDotCom -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100311/e37b4ed2/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Thu Mar 11 12:01:27 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu Mar 11 12:01:27 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71003110927j24d06289i8f8a5dd30a486fe3@mail.gmail.com> References: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <4b65c2d71003110927j24d06289i8f8a5dd30a486fe3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003111051q3991cb40ja5d23f6c8f364888@mail.gmail.com> Opps sorry, I thought this mail would be of interest to New Poetry. On Thu, Mar 11, 2010 at 6:27 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > > > If anyone knows of good subway poems for LightCages.com, please let me > know. So far, we've got Pound in the Paris metro, Heaney in a London tube > station, Alice Notley and Tom Waits in New York, as well as Vergil in Rome's > underground and Dante in Florence. > > ========================== > > Light Cages is an inside view into the earth's underground trains. Ever > wonder what it's like to ride a Tokyo subway? Or a London tube? Or a > Berlin u-bahn? You can view the official maps and transportation guides > from various government websites, but Light Cages takes you inside the > trains where things are less orderly and predictable. > > http://www.lightcages.com > > The scenes are written, photographed, or filmed by passengers who either > live or have visited the various underworlds in question. So click the link > and explore characters not found in the official brochures. If you have met > one of these characters, or are such a character yourself, please join the > underground by submitting a scene of your own. > > Erik Pihel, Editor > Light Cages > editor at lightcages.com > http://www.facebook.com/pages/LightCagescom/331464632498 > http://www.youtube.com/user/LightCagesDotCom > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100311/f91858f4/attachment.html From grahamd Thu Mar 11 16:45:20 2010 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Thu Mar 11 16:45:20 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World In-Reply-To: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <91BD8BF3-4AA4-429C-BE67-6685A243DBCF@ripon.edu> One of my favorites. . . . The Color Of Stepped On Gum is the color of our times. The light of our times is the light in the 14th St. subway at 2 a.m. The air of our times is the air of the Greyhound depot, Market & Sixth. It is prime time. A passed out sailor sits pitched forward like a sack of laundry in a plastic bucket seat his forehead resting on the movie of the week. The Long Goodbye. --Tom Clark. When Things Get Tough on Easy Street. Black Sparrow, 1978: 148. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Mar 11, 2010, at 10:22 AM, Erik Pihel wrote: > If anyone knows of good subway poems for LightCages.com, please let me know. So far, we've got Pound in the Paris metro, Heaney in a London tube station, Alice Notley and Tom Waits in New York, as well as Vergil in Rome's underground and Dante in Florence. > > ========================== > > Light Cages is an inside view into the earth's underground trains. Ever wonder what it's like to ride a Tokyo subway? Or a London tube? Or a Berlin u-bahn? You can view the official maps and transportation guides from various government websites, but Light Cages takes you inside the trains where things are less orderly and predictable. > > http://www.lightcages.com > > The scenes are written, photographed, or filmed by passengers who either live or have visited the various underworlds in question. So click the link and explore characters not found in the official brochures. If you have met one of these characters, or are such a character yourself, please join the underground by submitting a scene of your own. > > Erik Pihel, Editor > Light Cages > editor at lightcages.com > http://www.facebook.com/pages/LightCagescom/331464632498 > http://www.youtube.com/user/LightCagesDotCom > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100311/9b7ec3e0/attachment.html From grahamd Thu Mar 11 16:49:33 2010 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Thu Mar 11 16:49:33 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World In-Reply-To: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <5EE30E77-6FFA-4148-BFA4-7AA14C63CA70@ripon.edu> Another old favorite: Graffiti Blessings on all the kids who improve the signs in the subways: They put a beard on the fashionable lady selling soap, Fix up her flat chest with the boobies of a chorus girl, And though her hips be wrapped like a mummy They draw a hairy cunt where she should have one. The bathing beauty who looks pleased With the enormous prick in her mouth, declares "Eat hair pie; it's better than cornflakes." And the little boy in the Tarzan suit eating white bread Now has a fine pair of balls to crow about. And as often as you wash the walls and put up your posters, When you go back to the caged booth to deal out change The bright-eyed kids will come with grubby hands. Even if you watch, you cannot watch them all the time, And while you are dreaming, if you have dreams anymore, A boy and girl are giggling behind an iron pillar; And although the train pulls in and takes them on their way Into a winter that will freeze them forever, They leave behind a wall scrawled all over with flowers That shoot great drops of gism through the sky. -- Edward Field. Counting Myself Lucky: Selected Poems 1963-1992. Black Sparrow Press. ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Mar 11, 2010, at 10:22 AM, Erik Pihel wrote: > If anyone knows of good subway poems for LightCages.com, please let me know. So far, we've got Pound in the Paris metro, Heaney in a London tube station, Alice Notley and Tom Waits in New York, as well as Vergil in Rome's underground and Dante in Florence. > > ========================== > > Light Cages is an inside view into the earth's underground trains. Ever wonder what it's like to ride a Tokyo subway? Or a London tube? Or a Berlin u-bahn? You can view the official maps and transportation guides from various government websites, but Light Cages takes you inside the trains where things are less orderly and predictable. > > http://www.lightcages.com > > The scenes are written, photographed, or filmed by passengers who either live or have visited the various underworlds in question. So click the link and explore characters not found in the official brochures. If you have met one of these characters, or are such a character yourself, please join the underground by submitting a scene of your own. > > Erik Pihel, Editor > Light Cages > editor at lightcages.com > http://www.facebook.com/pages/LightCagescom/331464632498 > http://www.youtube.com/user/LightCagesDotCom > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100311/4f0289fc/attachment.html From jforjames Thu Mar 11 19:16:12 2010 From: jforjames (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Thu Mar 11 19:16:12 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World In-Reply-To: <5EE30E77-6FFA-4148-BFA4-7AA14C63CA70@ripon.edu> References: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <5EE30E77-6FFA-4148-BFA4-7AA14C63CA70@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <8CC8F9FA1D066A8-2E04-40CC@webmail-d024.sysops.aol.com> Mine in two places: http://www.thebusbench.com/2010/01/poetry-abandoned-subway-stop-by-jim-finnegan.html http://poetry.about.com/library/weekly/bljfinnegan.htm -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100311/6fb1d5d7/attachment.html From junction Thu Mar 11 19:18:39 2010 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Thu Mar 11 19:18:39 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World In-Reply-To: <91BD8BF3-4AA4-429C-BE67-6685A243DBCF@ripon.edu> References: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <91BD8BF3-4AA4-429C-BE67-6685A243DBCF@ripon.edu> Message-ID: Paul Blackburn wrote a few: The Franklin Avenue Line, Clickety-Clack, The Once-Over, Meditation on the BMT, Ritual VII. There are others. B/c for permissions info. And I'd be surprised if a search of Reznikoff and Joel Oppenheimer didn't turn up a few. Look for Walker Evans' subway photos. Here's one of mine: No Title On the subway radiant blond hair frightened eyes a girl an angel. I look again. A girl on the verge of tears. When I look again it's to wonder which of the newcomers wore rose-water so lavishly that it filled the car and I imagined myself in a garden. Here's another: SUBWAY TO MANHATTAN the white light reflected from snow still falling, and the impact that has on white faces--cleans them. from the el, where Manhattan's boxes were, a scrim divides reality. black men standing by the windows glow as if burnished, and this section of Brooklyn becomes a milltown. a scrim that divides this reality from the facade of the power that would deny it. on the train some laugh tiredly, some sleep. and the woman who greeted me upon entry, her face bubbled with lesions, locked into quiet astonishment at my start, after years of seeing it on other faces, as if to say, "then I must live isolated after all," now underground in a blizzard. Best, Mark At 06:34 PM 3/11/2010, you wrote: >One of my favorites. . . . > > >The Color Of Stepped On Gum > >is the color of our times. >The light of our times is >the light in the 14th St. >subway at 2 a.m. The air >of our times is the air of the >Greyhound depot, Market >& Sixth. It is prime time. A passed >out sailor sits pitched >forward like a sack of laundry >in a plastic bucket seat >his forehead resting on >the movie of the week. The Long Goodbye. > >--Tom Clark. When Things Get Tough on Easy Street. Black Sparrow, 1978: 148. > >======================================== >David Graham >grahamd at ripon.edu > >Home Page: >http://web.me.com/drjazz > >Poetry Library: >http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html >========================================== > > > > >On Mar 11, 2010, at 10:22 AM, Erik Pihel wrote: > >>If anyone knows of good subway poems for >>LightCages.com, please let me know. So far, >>we've got Pound in the Paris metro, Heaney in a London tube >>station, Alice Notley and Tom Waits in New York, as well as Vergil >>in Rome's underground and Dante in Florence. >> >>========================== >> >>Light Cages is an inside view into the earth's underground >>trains. Ever wonder what it's like to ride a Tokyo subway? Or a >>London tube? Or a Berlin u-bahn? You can view the official maps >>and transportation guides from various government websites, but >>Light Cages takes you inside the trains where things are less >>orderly and predictable. >> >>http://www.lightcages.com >> >>The scenes are written, photographed, or filmed by passengers who >>either live or have visited the various underworlds in >>question. So click the link and explore characters not found in >>the official brochures. If you have met one of these characters, >>or are such a character yourself, please join the underground by >>submitting a scene of your own. >> >>Erik Pihel, Editor >>Light Cages >>editor at lightcages.com >>http://www.facebook.com/pages/LightCagescom/331464632498 >>http://www.youtube.com/user/LightCagesDotCom >> >> >>_______________________________________________ >>New-Poetry mailing list >>New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >>http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100311/4ea04178/attachment.html From jforjames Thu Mar 11 20:00:32 2010 From: jforjames (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Thu Mar 11 20:00:32 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Three Percent Message-ID: <8CC8FA5D5B60C79-3428-4473@webmail-m040.sysops.aol.com> http://www.cbc.ca/arts/books/story/2010/03/11/translation-prize.html The poetry prize went to Elena Fanailova's The Russian Version, translated by Genya Turovskaya and Stephanie Sandler and published by Ugly Duckling Presse. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100311/d1c95e2b/attachment.html From jforjames Thu Mar 11 20:10:49 2010 From: jforjames (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Thu Mar 11 20:10:49 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Happy Poet Message-ID: <8CC8FA7481C2199-3428-465E@webmail-m040.sysops.aol.com> http://austinist.com/2010/03/10/sxsw_film_interview_paul_gordon_dir.php SXSW Film Interview: Paul Gordon directs The Happy Poet www.happypoetmovie.com Paul Gordon is a filmmaker, actor and Austin resident whose film The Happy Poet will enjoy its world premiere this weekend at the 2010 SXSW film festival. The narrative feature tells the story of a poet and food cart vendor who is trying to make the world a better place in spite of various economic, romantic and hotdog-related obstacles. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100311/a889eb54/attachment.html From junction Thu Mar 11 20:57:04 2010 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Thu Mar 11 20:57:04 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Three Percent In-Reply-To: <8CC8FA5D5B60C79-3428-4473@webmail-m040.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC8FA5D5B60C79-3428-4473@webmail-m040.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Wow. I've known Genya since she was a teenager. Richly deserved. She's also a fine poet. At 09:49 PM 3/11/2010, you wrote: >http://www.cbc.ca/arts/books/story/2010/03/11/translation-prize.html > >The poetry prize went to Elena Fanailova's The Russian Version, >translated by Genya Turovskaya and Stephanie Sandler and published >by Ugly Duckling Presse. > > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100311/a3ddef33/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Thu Mar 11 22:40:57 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Thu Mar 11 22:40:57 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World In-Reply-To: <8CC8F9FA1D066A8-2E04-40CC@webmail-d024.sysops.aol.com> References: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <5EE30E77-6FFA-4148-BFA4-7AA14C63CA70@ripon.edu> <8CC8F9FA1D066A8-2E04-40CC@webmail-d024.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003112130l4243d584q325aa6475ad7e2bb@mail.gmail.com> I remember this poem, I loved it then, I love it now. Probably the one on Poetry.com. On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 3:05 AM, wrote: > Mine in two places: > > http://www.thebusbench.com/2010/01/poetry-abandoned-subway-stop-by-jim-finnegan.html > > http://poetry.about.com/library/weekly/bljfinnegan.htm > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100312/79cc16b6/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Fri Mar 12 01:50:28 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri Mar 12 01:50:28 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] The Happy Poet In-Reply-To: <8CC8FA7481C2199-3428-465E@webmail-m040.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC8FA7481C2199-3428-465E@webmail-m040.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003120040q4b584ae4n606b3341219897f6@mail.gmail.com> That could be an idea... I'll put it in the "Other Possibilities" backpack, as we all know, one never knows. On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 4:00 AM, wrote: > http://austinist.com/2010/03/10/sxsw_film_interview_paul_gordon_dir.php > SXSW Film Interview: Paul Gordon directs The Happy Poet > www.happypoetmovie.com > > Paul Gordon is a filmmaker, actor and Austin resident whose film The Happy > Poet will enjoy its world premiere this weekend at the 2010 SXSW film > festival. The narrative feature tells the story of a poet and food cart > vendor who is trying to make the world a better place in spite of various > economic, romantic and hotdog-related obstacles. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100312/c377e2c0/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Fri Mar 12 06:55:44 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri Mar 12 06:55:44 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] from Quale Press Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003120545r3ea30f2apfb8c01445774df97@mail.gmail.com> Quale Press is pleased to announce the publication of *(nevertheless enjoyment ,* prose poems by Elizabeth Bryant . With vivid language that denies easily attained unambiguous and unlayered emotion, the poems in *(nevertheless enjoyment* examine and reexamine what satisfaction means through the lens of intimate experience. From [s]lumps in the middle where history is to [t]he drab-colored female being more of a challenge, Elizabeth Bryant portrays details of lifes challenges in surprising and, at times, unsettling terms. Central to this work of serial prose poetry is the concept of *jouissance*, sometimes loosely translated as enjoyment. Bryant uses the word to convey not only pleasure, happiness, achievement and satisfaction, but also fixation, difficulty, obstruction and conflict. These nuanced poems convey the sense that a precise understanding of jouissance is elusive and may be fully perceived only in hindsight. Showing the influence of writers such as Lyn Hejinian, Leslie Scalapino and Carla Harryman, Bryants direct prose illustrates a series of bittersweet and timeless vignettes. *(nevertheless enjoyment* provides evidence of an ever-present life force that is at once ineffable and brutally powerful. Elizabeth Bryant was born in Bay Ridge, Brooklyn. She is the author of three chapbooks, most recently *Fluorescence Buzz *(Dusie Press, 2009). Her forthcoming books include *No Subject* (Dusie Kollektiv, 2010) and *Reality Visits the Land of Illusions* (Black Radish Books, 2010). She co-curates the Bard Roving Reading series, and intermittently publishes an experimental project known as *Defeffable*. *(nevertheless enjoyment ,* by *Elizabeth Bryant* ISBN: 978-0-9792999-9-5 Perfect Bound, $13.00 Publication Date: March 1, 2010 5.5 x 7.75 inches, 74 pages Prose Poetry/Poetry *Individuals:* Order directly from Small Press Distribution , 1-800-869-7553. *Bookstores:* Order through Small Press Distribution . -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100312/5ed9106d/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Fri Mar 12 08:36:30 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri Mar 12 08:36:30 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] ARAKAWA & GINS Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003120726m1c18ee9di1828de70db5d723b@mail.gmail.com> An exceptional event, do not miss it! Re: First Day of AG3-Online! "Hi Anny: go to http://www.facebook.com/l/ba18c;ag3.griffith.edu.au and you will see a button to get instructions for registering, which is free and easy. Hope to see you there! -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100312/a31b44af/attachment.html From jforjames Fri Mar 12 08:56:06 2010 From: jforjames (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Fri Mar 12 08:56:06 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71003110927j24d06289i8f8a5dd30a486fe3@mail.gmail.com> References: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <4b65c2d71003110927j24d06289i8f8a5dd30a486fe3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CC90122D46F63F-21EC-FB7F@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> http://www.painting-palace.com/en/paintings/36158 The art critic Thomas Crowe has written about this Edward Hopper picture regarding his notion of 'zero point' in art. If I can find a paragraph or two I'll post. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:27 pm Subject: Fwd: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World If anyone knows of good subway poems for LightCages.com, please let me know. So far, we've got Pound in the Paris metro, Heaney in a London tube station, Alice Notley and Tom Waits in New York, as well as Vergil in Rome's underground and Dante in Florence. ========================== Light Cages is an inside view into the earth's underground trains. Ever wonder what it's like to ride a Tokyo subway? Or a London tube? Or a Berlin u-bahn? You can view the official maps and transportation guides from various government websites, but Light Cages takes you inside the trains where things are less orderly and predictable. http://www.lightcages.com The scenes are written, photographed, or filmed by passengers who either live or have visited the various underworlds in question. So click the link and explore characters not found in the official brochures. If you have met one of these characters, or are such a character yourself, please join the underground by submitting a scene of your own. Erik Pihel, Editor Light Cages editor at lightcages.com http://www.facebook.com/pages/LightCagescom/331464632498 http://www.youtube.com/user/LightCagesDotCom _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100312/cf46bd2a/attachment-0001.html From jforjames Fri Mar 12 08:58:58 2010 From: jforjames (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Fri Mar 12 08:58:58 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World In-Reply-To: <8CC90122D46F63F-21EC-FB7F@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> References: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net><4b65c2d71003110927j24d06289i8f8a5dd30a486fe3@mail.gmail.com> <8CC90122D46F63F-21EC-FB7F@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC9012926A9719-21EC-FC78@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> http://www.phillipscollection.org/research/american_art/learning/hopper-learning.htm Appears that the correct title of Hopper painting is "Approaching a City". -----Original Message----- From: jforjames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Fri, Mar 12, 2010 10:45 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World http://www.painting-palace.com/en/paintings/36158 The art critic Thomas Crowe has written about this Edward Hopper picture regarding his notion of 'zero point' in art. If I can find a paragraph or two I'll post. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:27 pm Subject: Fwd: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World If anyone knows of good subway poems for LightCages.com, please let me know. So far, we've got Pound in the Paris metro, Heaney in a London tube station, Alice Notley and Tom Waits in New York, as well as Vergil in Rome's underground and Dante in Florence. ========================== Light Cages is an inside view into the earth's underground trains. Ever wonder what it's like to ride a Tokyo subway? Or a London tube? Or a Berlin u-bahn? You can view the official maps and transportation guides from various government websites, but Light Cages takes you inside the trains where things are less orderly and predictable. http://www.lightcages.com The scenes are written, photographed, or filmed by passengers who either live or have visited the various underworlds in question. So click the link and explore characters not found in the official brochures. If you have met one of these characters, or are such a character yourself, please join the underground by submitting a scene of your own. Erik Pihel, Editor Light Cages editor at lightcages.com http://www.facebook.com/pages/LightCagescom/331464632498 http://www.youtube.com/user/LightCagesDotCom _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100312/a9ee755d/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Fri Mar 12 09:03:06 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri Mar 12 09:03:06 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World In-Reply-To: <8CC9012926A9719-21EC-FC78@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> References: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <4b65c2d71003110927j24d06289i8f8a5dd30a486fe3@mail.gmail.com> <8CC90122D46F63F-21EC-FB7F@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> <8CC9012926A9719-21EC-FC78@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003120752r1d57b74aj5fdf5129faa5694d@mail.gmail.com> I came up with this: http://www.poetryfoundation.org/archive/poem.html?id=176266 Forrest Gander in the Ruined Tunnel_ On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 4:48 PM, wrote: > > http://www.phillipscollection.org/research/american_art/learning/hopper-learning.htm > Appears that the correct title of Hopper painting is "Approaching a City". > > > -----Original Message----- > From: jforjames at aol.com > To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > Sent: Fri, Mar 12, 2010 10:45 am > Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, > and Subways from around the World > > http://www.painting-palace.com/en/paintings/36158 > > The art critic Thomas Crowe has written about this Edward Hopper picture > regarding his notion of 'zero point' in art. > If I can find a paragraph or two I'll post. > Finnegan > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anny Ballardini > To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views < > new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu> > Sent: Thu, Mar 11, 2010 12:27 pm > Subject: Fwd: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, > and Subways from around the World > > > > If anyone knows of good subway poems for LightCages.com, please let me > know. So far, we've got Pound in the Paris metro, Heaney in a London tube > station, Alice Notley and Tom Waits in New York, as well as Vergil in Rome's > underground and Dante in Florence. > > ========================== > > Light Cages is an inside view into the earth's underground trains. Ever > wonder what it's like to ride a Tokyo subway? Or a London tube? Or a > Berlin u-bahn? You can view the official maps and transportation guides > from various government websites, but Light Cages takes you inside the > trains where things are less orderly and predictable. > > http://www.lightcages.com > > The scenes are written, photographed, or filmed by passengers who either > live or have visited the various underworlds in question. So click the link > and explore characters not found in the official brochures. If you have met > one of these characters, or are such a character yourself, please join the > underground by submitting a scene of your own. > > Erik Pihel, Editor > Light Cages > editor at lightcages.com > http://www.facebook.com/pages/LightCagescom/331464632498 > http://www.youtube.com/user/LightCagesDotCom > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > > > -- > Anny Ballardini > http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ > http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome > http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 > http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html > I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing > star! > Friedrich Nietzsche > > ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique > vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? > Giovenale > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing listNew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.eduhttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100312/1b58c872/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Fri Mar 12 09:07:16 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri Mar 12 09:07:16 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World In-Reply-To: <8CC9012926A9719-21EC-FC78@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> References: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <4b65c2d71003110927j24d06289i8f8a5dd30a486fe3@mail.gmail.com> <8CC90122D46F63F-21EC-FB7F@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> <8CC9012926A9719-21EC-FC78@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003120756i4acef743t18113cff72f882d2@mail.gmail.com> On the subway by Sharon Olds http://www.poetrymagazines.org.uk/magazine/record.asp?id=2161 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100312/4fcee633/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Fri Mar 12 09:17:38 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri Mar 12 09:17:38 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71003120756i4acef743t18113cff72f882d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <4b65c2d71003110927j24d06289i8f8a5dd30a486fe3@mail.gmail.com> <8CC90122D46F63F-21EC-FB7F@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> <8CC9012926A9719-21EC-FC78@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d71003120756i4acef743t18113cff72f882d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003120807l1395f020v6863c0896f00ef8e@mail.gmail.com> Simon and Garfunkel: A Poem on the Underground Wall http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6dJdf_Vjt4&feature=related -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100312/ac0b2578/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Fri Mar 12 09:19:46 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Fri Mar 12 09:19:46 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71003120807l1395f020v6863c0896f00ef8e@mail.gmail.com> References: <32369888.1268324565120.JavaMail.root@elwamui-hound.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <4b65c2d71003110927j24d06289i8f8a5dd30a486fe3@mail.gmail.com> <8CC90122D46F63F-21EC-FB7F@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> <8CC9012926A9719-21EC-FC78@webmail-m068.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d71003120756i4acef743t18113cff72f882d2@mail.gmail.com> <4b65c2d71003120807l1395f020v6863c0896f00ef8e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003120809m1a28b1d3ta96c37270680a5c4@mail.gmail.com> Even better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C9sWiuWm37w&NR=1 in the original version, 1967 On Fri, Mar 12, 2010 at 5:07 PM, Anny Ballardini wrote: > Simon and Garfunkel: > A Poem on the Underground Wall > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6dJdf_Vjt4&feature=related > > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100312/210d6b9d/attachment.html From skip Fri Mar 12 09:31:17 2010 From: skip (Skip Fox) Date: Fri Mar 12 09:31:17 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Light Cages: Scenes from Metros, Tubes, U-Bahns, and Subways from around the World In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71003120756i4acef743t18113cff72f882d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <0AC02F98341A40FE8F7FF1D123216A41@win.louisiana.edu> Zukofsky's "'Mantis': An Interpretation" -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100312/f9e84c91/attachment.html From jforjames Fri Mar 12 20:06:51 2010 From: jforjames (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Fri Mar 12 20:06:51 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 In-Reply-To: <9781493745a91e534144f85f0eb89bf2@lists.spdbooks.org> References: <9781493745a91e534144f85f0eb89bf2@lists.spdbooks.org> Message-ID: <8CC906FE5F6A2BF-4FC4-6A8B@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> Sent: Fri, Mar 12, 2010 4:28 pm Subject: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 NEW LIT GEN | BLOG | FACEBOOK | TWITTER | FROM THE VAULT! | DONATE TO SPD Try Electronic Ordering! SPD is on Pubnet, SAN: 1066617. Questions? Contact Clay at clay at spdbooks.org orders at spdbooks.org | www.spdbooks.org 1.800.869.7553 | fax: 1.510.524.0852 ROAR. New Poetry from Chax Press REASON AND OTHER WOMEN Alice Notley $21 | paper | 191 pp. Chax Press ISBN: 9780925904843 Poetry. "This is an immense book, one in which Notley takes language, as she has it, 'from hearsay to heresy' by the speed and awe of an unwavering attention to the seams, seems and semes of words and sentences. This is the work of an iconoclast, a semioclast, where semantics become seme-antics, and the byz-antics and -antiques from Christianity to Christine are molten down & recast into 21st Century mental shapes in the red-hot heart-red retort of a present day alchemist of mind. Alice Notley has the uncanny ability to go from the everyday mundane to the psycho-cosmic in one warp-speed stutter or typo-graphical stumble, at what Andr? Breton called 'la vitesse grand V.' This is writing of the highest order"?Pierre Joris. LINK? New Poetry from Ahsahta Press CHORA Sandra Doller $17.50 | paper | 128 pp. Ahsahta Press ISBN: 9781934103128 Poetry. Sandra Doller's tricky, sly language comes at you sideways, full of coinages and puns, and is obsessed with lines: the highways and train tracks that cross deserts; lines from jokes and ghost stories; and lines of influence?Gertrude Stein implicitly, and H.D. explicitly. Doller is not concerned with the complete or the perfect; she shows us the torn edge of notebook paper, "the american wastrel" in a yellow dress, and characters who plead, in a reversal of Goethe's last words, for "no more light." LINK? New Poetry from Flood Editions EFFACEMENT Elizabeth Arnold $14.95 | paper | 96 pp. Flood Editions ISBN: 9780981952024 Poetry. "In this remarkable new book, Elizabeth Arnold focuses on what certain bodies undergo against forces that efface them. Physical law has it that 'what pokes out gets hit.' Limbs, noses, and jaws are blown off. There are mastectomies. Prosthetic reconstruction is 'flesh displaced.' Some of those who experience it learn that there is now between them and the ones they love a wall of cancelled desire. 'One can adjust to this, they say, but not // from it.' Losses such as these italicize how unlikely it was to begin with that any soul should ever have made its way into a body out of the oblivion that precedes birth. Death too is that oblivion. Its 'fingers' open the face out of which 'something // inner joins the surface' as soon as the eyes ask for help"?James McMichael. LINK? New Poetry from Kelsey Street Press AERODROME ORION & STARRY MESSENGER Susan Gevirtz $17.95 | paper | 63 pp. Kelsey Street Press ISBN: 9780932716712 Poetry. "It's not possible to be more phenomenologically direct than the poetry on these pages. This is removal of the obstacles of perception, beginning with perception, often by means of the obstacles themselves. This is what the sky is. All other skies in this one. There is a host of impossibilities to be found in AERODROME ORION & STARRY MESSENGER. Susan Gevirtz's page is both an inclusion of a scale too vast for inclusion and a selection of the minutiae that includes it. Someone might say 'air.' She has said 'astro stage.' I'd introduce the Sanskrit term 'akasa' (akasa is free or open space?the most primary and pervasive of elements?medium of life and sound). What is all over the place is normally not only beyond our grasp, it's not even noticeable. A path is usually cut or carved. Yet her paths are melted into the medium that is itself the way. This is incredibly accurate with regard to consciousness when we are indeed conscious. Terribly limited terms are not only not obstacles, they're instrumental and indispensable in opening the view?like little portals. Like latches. Like Lockheed's P3 Orion 4 engine aircraft. Hers is a prosody that responds to the physical forces of flight. She measures in leap seconds (again, not possible). Just as she has asked of a feather, I can with like awe and admiration ask of each page of this work: 'how can there be such a thing as'"?Robert Kocik. LINK? New Poetry from Sidebrow Books ON WONDERLAND & WASTE Sandy Florian $20 | paper | 104 pp. Sidebrow Books ISBN: 9780981497518 Poetry. Sandy Florian's ON WONDERLAND & WASTE is a novel in narratives bent on exposing the mind as an instrument of language "not entirely there." Featuring full-color collages [VIEW SAMPLE] by Alexis Anne Mackenzie, these 12 lyrical meditations on desire, delirium, duty, and dismemberment destabilize what we can measure of the meaning underlying our experience with a visceral diction that reminds us that "the sharpest of tongues cut their own throats first." LINK? New Poetry from Wave Books BLACK LIFE Dorothea Lasky $14 | paper | 77 pp. Wave Books ISBN: 9781933517438 Poetry. In her brazen second collection, Dorothea Lasky cries out beyond prophecy and confession, through to an even more powerful empathy. On the verge of becoming pure substance and sensation, BLACK LIFE is emotion recollected not in tranquility, but in radically affirming intensity. LINK? New Poetry from Harbor Mountain Press RUMORED ISLANDS Robert Farnsworth $14 | paper | 88 pp. Harbor Mountain Press ISBN: 9780981556031 Poetry. Robert Farnsworth's first two books were published by Wesleyan University Press. Twenty years later, Harbor Mountain Press brings out Farnsworth's next: fine narrative poems made of patina and salt, family memory and youthful outlook, reality and regret. "Farnsworth returns with poems of wonder and shame, loneliness and 'the strange, sun-spun fabric of the world.' In carefully sculpted lines, alternately lyrical and narrative, cultured and stripped down, he offers poems that arrive unannounced and track the unexpected turns life takes, the way an unanticipated moment can become part of a story we were meant to hear"?Publishers Weekly, starred review. LINK? New Poetry from Canarium Books THE WASTE LAND AND OTHER POEMS John Beer $14 | paper | 128 pp. Canarium Books ISBN: 9780982237649 Poetry. John Beer's first collection, THE WASTE LAND AND OTHER POEMS, employs the wit of a philosopher and the ear of a poet to stage ways of reading that are political, personal, and theoretical. The speaker of these poems also brings humor to the dissecting table, to prod the legacies of great works of the imagination while balancing irony and affection. LINK? New Poetry from Talisman House COLLECTED POEMS Gustaf Sobin $27.95 | paper | 756 pp. Talisman House ISBN: 9781584980728 Poetry. Edited by Andrew Joron and Andrew Zawacki. "Gustaf Sobin's poems, whose principal heaven is a dawn field in Provence, have always traced a path to the Absolute. His work, which finally must be ranked with that of Celan and Ren? Char, causes language to exceed its own condition. Here, words find their true home in exile, a caesura accurately, & exquisitely, measured in lines indistinguishable from musical notation. Indeed, Sobin plucks a music beyond hearing from the strands of a fallen world, & so perfects the art of making 'manifest omissions'"?Andrew Joron. LINK? New Fiction from BlazeVOX Books CHE. A NOVELLA IN THREE PARTS Peter Money $16 | paper | 210 pp. BlazeVOX Books ISBN: 9781935402862 Fiction. "Extraordinary...an ocean of beautiful and harrowing language that casts up its characters like great drift logs seen through heavy surf. The novella...speaks to and out of his refusal of artificial separations between the possibilities of art and the strictures of history.... Peter reveals a commitment to the beauty and precision of language?lyrical flights end-stopped by a sentence like a punch to the gut: 'People died trying.' This is writing that requires readers to think and feel in equal measures"?Jan Clausen. "Epic"?Christian Peet. LINK? New Fiction from Spuyten Duyvil A LESSER DAY Andrea Scrima $16 | paper | 290 pp. Spuyten Duyvil ISBN: 9781933132778 Fiction. When the narrator travels to New York to attend her father's funeral shortly after November 9, 1989, the day the Berlin Wall fell, a period begins in which her hold on reality grows increasingly tenuous. Hiding away in her studio with her father's journals, her paintings building up inch by inch in a fruitless attempt to come to terms with human mortality, she sets about deciphering her father's encoded script. Addressing a continually shifting "you" in a search for emotional understanding initially directed at the author's dead father and then merging into a blur of intimate others, A LESSER DAY explores the mechanisms of memory and suppression in an era of political upheaval. Little escapes the author's scrutinizing eye as she locates meaning in the passage of time as it inscribes itself into the myriad things around us: the mute, insentient witnesses of our everyday existence. LINK? New Fiction from The Green Lantern Press FASCIA Ashley Donielle Murray $20 | paper | 149 pp. The Green Lantern Press ISBN: 9780982029251 Fiction. FASCIA is a series of Southern vignettes describing various angles of life, from the silent-movie starlet, to the high school prom queen approaching middle age, to the adolescent boy. In each story there is a delicate web of familial and communal relationships that intersect, overlap and impede on the landscape. Printed in an edition of 500 with silkscreen covers by Nadine Nakanishi of Sonnenzimmer. LINK? New Poetry from Quale Press (NEVERTHELESS ENJOYMENT Elizabeth Bryant $13 | paper | 74 pp. Quale Press ISBN: 9780979299995 Poetry. "With vivid language that denies easily attained unambiguous and unlayered emotion, the pieces in (NEVERTHELESS ENJOYMENT examine and reexamine what satisfaction means through the lens of intimate experience. From 'slumps in the middle where history is,' to 'the drab-colored female being more of a challenge,' Elizabeth Bryant portrays details of the human condition in surprising and unsettling terms. Central to this work of serial prose poetry is the Lacanian psychoanalytic concept 'jouissance,' which is oftentimes loosely translated as 'enjoyment.' Bryant uses the word to convey not only pleasure, joy, achievement and satisfaction, but also fixation, difficulty, obstruction and conflict. This nuanced volume conveys the sense that a precise understanding of jouissance is elusive, and may be fully perceived only in hindsight. Showing the influence of writers such as Lyn Hejinian, Leslie Scalapino and Carla Harryman, Elizabeth Bryant's direct prose provides evidence of an ever-present life force that is at once ineffable and brutally powerful"?Gian Lombardo. LINK? New Poetry from Book Thug (MADE) Cara Benson $17 | paper | 63 pp. Book Thug ISBN: 9781897388563 Poetry. "In the magical dictionary of (MADE), Cara Benson renders hotel facades in 'marshmallow'?not a color, but the surface?a substance I associate, at least in North America, with outdoor recreational fires. That hotel is going to burn to a crisp, in the social and planetary imaginary of Benson's intense work. What's particularly successful about this collection is the fact that this projective, impossible, ruined image does not have a place in the book, but, rather, appears/can appear: in the body of the reader: reading. Images are tracked not just for their futures but for their past versions ('garbage')?in which we 'wander, but delete, too.' 'How can you aim a fire?' asks Benson, in the 'cold axis' of an aftermath in which the earth is an 'orange' orbiting or attracting the 'jagged spark lines' of the sky. What breaks the sky. This is writing from the holocene. It's not trajectory. It's not narrative. It's vibration"?Bhanu Kapil. LINK? New Poetry from Marsh Hawk Press THE THORN ROSARY: SELECTED PROSE POEMS, 1998-2010 Eileen R. Tabios $19.95 | paper | pp. Marsh Hawk Press ISBN: 9780984117727 Poetry. THE THORN ROSARY offers a selection of prose poems written by Eileen R. Tabios, including poems from hard-to-find early books and as released in the past twelve years by publishers in the U.S., Philippines, Australia and Finland. Advance words include, from John Olson: "Tabios is a seamstress of the surreal, combining erudition and art historical references with flourishes of verbal color and surge. Ramifications at the fringe of consciousness thread brocades of textural ardor in a luster of compound interest. Her work ... is 'a blissful difficulty,' ... a perception with a nerve." LINK? New Poetry Anthology from Shearsman Books INFINITE DIFFERENCE: OTHER POETRIES BY U.K. WOMEN POETS Carrie Etter, Editor $20 | paper | 198 pp. Shearsman Books ISBN: 9781848610996 Poetry. Edited by Carrie Etter. An anthology of radical new women's poetry from the United Kingdom, INFINITE DIFFERENCE features work by Sascha Akhtar, Isobel Armstrong, Caroline Bergvall, Elisabeth Bletsoe, Anne Blonstein, Andrea Brady, Emily Critchley, Claire Crowther, Carrie Etter, Catherine Hales, Frances Kruk, Rachel Lehrman, Sophie Mayer, Marianne Morris, Wendy Mulford, Redell Olsen, Frances Presley, Anna Reckin, Carlyle Reedy, Sophie Robinson, Lucy Sheerman, Zoe Skoulding, Harriet Tarlo, and Carol Watts. LINK? New Gender Studies from Inanna Publications SOCIETIES OF PEACE: MATRIARCHIES PAST PRESENT AND FUTURE Heidi Goettner-Abendroth, Editor $39.95 | paper | 449 pp. Inanna Publications ISBN: 9780978223359 Nonfiction. Gender Studies. Political Science. SOCIETIES OF PEACE: MATRIARCHIES PAST PRESENT AND FUTURE, edited by Heide Goettner-Abendroth, celebrates women's largely ignored and/or invisible contribution to culture by exploring matriarchal societies that have existed in the past and that continue to exist today in certain parts of the world. Matriarchal societies, primarily shaped by women, have a non violent social order in which all living creatures are respected without the exploitation of humans, animals or nature. They are well-balanced and peaceful societies in which domination is unknown and all beings are treated equally. This book presents these largely misunderstood societies, both past and present, to the wider public, as alternative social and cultural models that promote trust, mutuality, and abundance for all. LINK? New Poetry from Red Dragonfly Press FIRST WORDS Joyce Sutphen $15 | paper | 104 pp. Red Dragonfly Press ISBN: 9781890193911 Poetry. Joyce Sutphen grew up on a working dairy farm, and her poems recover this lost world, with all its beauty and order. This collection traces a shift in the rural landscape from horses to tractors, from haystacks to hay bales?-and watches as time ages and changes the people who make up the story. FIRST WORDS is both elegy and celebration?-ultimately its center is family, then and now. LINK? New Poetry in Translation from Ugly Duckling Presse 5 METERS OF POEMS Carlos Oquendo de Amat 25 | paper | pp. Ugly Duckling Presse ISBN: 9781933254593 Poetry. Latino/Latina Studies. Bilingual Edition. Accordian-style binding in a limited edition of 750. Translated from the Spanish by Alejandro de Acosta and Joshua Beckman. Carlos Oquendo de Amat wrote 5 METERS OF POEMS (5 metros de poemas) from 1923 to 1925. It was published in a very small edition in December 1927. Carlos Oquendo de Amat's only book of poems bears the stamp of the influence of European Avant Gardes; at the same time it is clearly a corner-stone for what would later become Concrete Poetry. This special bilingual accordion-book edition of 5 METERS OF POEMS designed by Megan Mangum features a new English translation by Alejandro de Acosta and Joshua Beckman. Four additional poems are printed on the inside of the book's cover wrap, thus making this edition a complete presentation of Oquendo de Amat's known writings. LINK? New Essays from Subpress ANOTHER LOOK: SELECTED PROSE Gary Lenhart $14 | paper | 113 pp. Subpress ISBN: 9781930068445 Literary Nonfiction. Poetry History & Criticism. Poetics. "Opinions tend to be uninteresting, which is one of the reasons why I always like reading poet Gary Lenhart's critical pieces: he gives us far more than thumbs up or thumbs down. In his clean, clear prose, Lenhart comes across as companionable, smart, well-read, alert, and sane. He has no terrible axes to grind and he never lords it over the work under scrutiny. Even on those rare occasions when I disagree with him, I trust his probity, I am delighted by his wit, and I applaud the fact that ultimately he is rooting for everyone to write well"?Ron Padgett. LINK? New Drama from BlazeVOX Books LOST POET: FOUR PLAYS BY JESSE GLASS Jesse Glass $20 | paper | 145 pp. BlazeVOX Books ISBN: 9781935402398 Drama. In this selection of plays, Jesse Glass's imagination rages, leaps and staggers from the Challenger disaster of 1986 to the hallucinated lucubrations of Thomas Holley Chivers (friend and rival of Edgar Allan Poe), and manages to cover the arrival of a cosmic, sexual vermiform lemure of the Kabbalistic Bohu-Tohu in a reportorial manner worthy of N.P.R., while ringing the changes on a young man's sexual angst in the face of the ambiguities of the Summerland. Visionary, gutteral, Artaudian, relentless, filled with the televised promise of a black and white yesterday and the anguished cry of tomorrow's prize-winning Flamenco singer, Glass's plays disengage, disencumber, debride, devour and deflower even while they detonate on the Senecan tongue in the midst of intoning. They scale their own Everests, plant their own flags, and play Stanley to the Livingstone of our burgeoning post-post-post-post-modernity. LINK? New Fiction from New Issues Poetry & Prose TOADS' MUSEUM OF FREAKS AND WONDERS Goldie Goldbloom $26 | cloth | 321 pp. New Issues Poetry & Prose ISBN: 9781930974883 Fiction. WP Award Series in the Novel. In the wake of a thwarted career as a concert pianist and the accompanying emotional fallout, Gin accepts a marriage proposal from the peculiar Mr. Toad. But nothing from the albino Gin Toad's upbringing in the bourgeois drawing rooms of Perth has prepared her for a hardscrabble existence on a subsistence farm in the Australian outback. In her Wyalkatchem exile, she explores what it means to be a mother and wife, an underappreciated musician, and the town freak. She walks on eggshells to accommodate the cantankerous Toad and comes to accept her life without independence, music, or love until Antonio arrives. The Italian POWs forced into the Toads' service change the landscape of Gin's world. She is haunted by the memory of her first child's death; Antonio is exiled from a country and family he cherishes, banished to Western Australia while WWII threatens all he holds dear. In their mutual isolation and loss, the growing intimacy between Gin and Antonio becomes their escape from hardship but will it also be their undoing? LINK? New Poetry Anthology from Sixteen Rivers Press THE PLACE THAT INHABITS US: POEMS FROM THE SAN FRANCISCO BAY WATERSHED Sixteen Rivers Press, Editors $20 | paper | 160 pp. Sixteen Rivers Press ISBN: 9780981981611 Poetry. California Studies. Foreword by Robert Hass. The poems in this anthology embody what it's like to live in the astonishing weave of cities and towns, landscape and language, climate and history that make up the greater San Francisco Bay Area. Selected by the members of Sixteen Rivers Press, a regional poetry collective named after the web of rivers that flow into San Francisco Bay, the poems in THE PLACE THAT INHABITS US are drawn from both a physical and a metaphoric watershed. From the granite slopes of the Sierra to the Delta, through the Coastal Range to the bay and shores of the Pacific, one hundred poems by poets well known and not well known, living and dead, map this improbable region. There are egrets and grievous losses here; prayers, panhandlers,Delta mornings and sunsets in the 'hood; the fog, certainly, and the bridges, but there are shades of Dante on a Miwok trail, and Wang-wei haunts the slopes of Grizzly Peak. These poems are internal maps, "the mental maps that for humans," writes Robert Hass in the foreword, "make a place a place." Gathered together, they evoke the San Francisco Bay watershed, the place that inhabits us. LINK? New Poetry from Factory School THE CITY REAL & IMAGINED CAConrad and Frank Sherlock $15 | paper | 100 pp. Factory School ISBN: 9781600010736 Poetry. Wander with CAConrad and Frank Sherlock through this psychogeographical poem. Experience peoples' histories and magical traditions rooted in the first capital of the American possible?the city of Philadelphia. Visit landmarks that remain standing, revisit citizens that live on in memory, and participate in the future mappings of your city yet to be realized?the city real and imagined. LINK? New Poetry from Silverfish Review Press BEST WESTERN AND OTHER POEMS Eric Gudas $14.95 | paper | 80 pp. Silverfish Review Press ISBN: 9781878851574 Poetry. "Like a wine crafted by sturdy Franciscan monks in southern France, bottled by a crack team of Swiss psychotherapists, and kept in a temperature-controlled vault in the sub-cellar, Eric Gudas has been one of my secret favorite poets for a long time. This careful, rich collection makes his playful, anguished, perceptive, and humane poems available at last. BEST WESTERN AND OTHER POEMS is a fine varietal?with hints of cello, playground, and boudoir. This book is full of terrific, distinctive poems, and you will love it. It's that simple"?Tony Hoagland. LINK? New Poetry from Copper Canyon Press SANCTIFICUM Chris Abani $15 | paper | 96 pp. Copper Canyon Press ISBN: 9781556593161 Poetry. African American Studies. SANCTIFICUM, Abani's fifth collection of poetry, is his most personal and ambitious book. Utilizing religious ritual, the Nigerian Igbo language, and reggae rhythms, Abani creates a post-racial, liturgical love song that covers the globe from Abuja to Los Angeles. A self-described "zealot of optimism," poet and novelist Chris Abani bravely travels into the charged intersections of atrocity and love, politics and religion, loss and renewal. In poems of devastating beauty, he investigates complex personal history, family, and romantic love. LINK? New Poetry from epic rites press CRUDELY MISTAKEN FOR LIFE Wolfgang Carstens $15.50 | paper | 98 pp. epic rites press ISBN: 9780981184463 Poetry. "Wolfgang Carstens debuts here with a rock solid collection of poems where you can sense the presence of the viscera under the blood-coated muscle that is the text. And yet the poems are surprisingly gentle and nostalgic sometimes, sometimes angry, sometimes philosophical, sometimes funny. Not so much a traditional anthology of poems as a manifesto and statement of intent combined with a dissertation on life and the sort of things that are deserving in it, love, loyalty, and the forgotten child inside. Poems to read in all seasons, but especially when winter storms howl outside"?David McLean. LINK? New Film Studies from Seoul Selection KOREAN FILM DIRECTORS: BONG JOON-HO Jung Ji-youn $24 | paper | 224 pp. Seoul Selection ISBN: 9788991913530 Film Studies. Asian Studies. This book is the result of efforts to reach a deeper and broader understanding of the director Bong Joon-ho, who has been the subject of a great deal of popular interest and attention in Korean society in spite of his relatively short filmography of three feature films. After the experience of Barking Dogs Never Bite, it appears that the director clearly came to understand what he had to do to relate the story he wanted to tell in the way most suited to the public, yet most in line with his own cinephile impulses. Memories of Murder and The Host were both major box office successes in Korean film, but at the same time, they were films that looked upon the wounds and failures of modern Korean history in the most perceptive and challenging ways. As a result, Bong Joon-ho became almost unique in present-day Korean film in his ability to break away from commercial and creative pressures and realize the kind of films he wants to, when he wants to. LINK? New Poetry Anthology from Bottom Dog Press BOTTOM DOG PRESS POETRY ANTHOLOGY: 25TH ANNIVERSARY Laura Smith, Allen Frost, and Larry Smith, Editors $16 | paper | 156 pp. Bottom Dog Press ISBN: 9781933964348 Poetry. This anthology of 25 years of poetry publications from Bottom Dog Press includes work by the following poets: David Adams, Laura Treacy Bentley, Roy Bentley, Jeanne Bryner, Jennifer Burd, Imogene Bolls, David Canalos, Michael Cole, d. steven conkle, Jim Daniels, Todd Davis, Robert DeMott, Robert Flanagan, Allen Frost, Chris Green, Jeff Gundy, Richard Hague, Denish Hassan, Terry Hermsen, Meredith Holmes, Brooke Horvath, Marci Janas, Milton Jordan, Diane Kendig, David Kherdian, Ron Kittell, Kip Knott, Tom (T.L.) Kryss Naton Leslie, d.a.levy, Chris Llewellyn, Joanne Lowery, Ray McNiece, Herbert Woodward Martin, Ken Meisel, Richard E. Messer, Don Moyer, George Myers Jr., Joe Napora, Kenneth Patchen, Edwina (Eddy) Pendarvis, Maj Ragain, Gloria Regalbuto, Jerry Roscoe, Timothy Russell, Karen St. John-Vincent, Philip St. Clair, Russell Salamon, Michael Salinger, David Shevin, Daniel Smith, Larry Smith, Rob Smith, Merry Speece, Deborah Ellen Stokes, Robert Tener, Daniel Thompson, Alberta T. Turner, John A. Vanek, John Volkmer, Michael E. Waldecki, Mary E. Weems, Loren Weiss, Mary Ann Wehler, and William C. Wright. LINK? New Poetry from Hanging Loose Press TOURIST AT A MIRACLE Mark Statman $18 | paper | 88 pp. Hanging Loose Press ISBN: 9781934909164 Poetry. "It's very rare to watch the birth of a new style. It's like watching through a new set of Proust's kaleidoscopes. Mark Statman has been working for years on a vision of himself and parts of the city concentrated and bare as any poetry. It's hard to compare it to anything except a commentary on the real and the imagined pointillist poems almost without figures and adjectives and false decorations. But it all adds up, like a fire hydrant taken by Rudy Burkhardt, because everything is unexaggerated, convincing as a street sign. He has gotten away from any lyric leftovers, and in his anti-anti-poems he makes a lot of magic and music out of elegies of a city mouse. He has a family, a loved wife, and son, and a past he has a constant politics and is not seduced by the political. He makes us bewildered tourists at his everyday miracle"?David Shapiro. LINK? FROM THE VAULT! ALL THIS EVERY DAY Joanne Kyger $4 | paper | 92 pp. Big Sky ISBN: 9780929844046 LAST COPIES! Poetry. Published in an edition of 1500 copies in 1975 by Big Sky in Bolina, California, ALL THIS EVERY DAY includes one of Kyger's most familiar poems, "September." LINK? If you do not want to receive any more emails, click this link. To update your preferences and to unsubscribe, visit this link. Spread the word! Forward this message to a friend by clicking this link. -------------- next part -------------- Skipped content of type multipart/related From jforjames Fri Mar 12 20:17:41 2010 From: jforjames (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Fri Mar 12 20:17:41 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 In-Reply-To: <8CC906FE5F6A2BF-4FC4-6A8B@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC906FE5F6A2BF-4FC4-6A8B@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC90716813B30F-4FC4-6C56@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> The blurb is my b?te noire, I'll admit. But this is one of those blurbs that gives blurbs a bad name... "This is an immense book, one in which Notley takes language, as she has it, 'from hearsay to heresy' by the speed and awe of an unwavering attention to the seams, seems and semes of words and sentences. This is the work of an iconoclast, a semioclast, where semantics become seme-antics, and the byz-antics and -antiques from Christianity to Christine are molten down & recast into 21st Century mental shapes in the red-hot heart-red retort of a present day alchemist of mind. Alice Notley has the uncanny ability to go from the everyday mundane to the psycho-cosmic in one warp-speed stutter or typo-graphical stumble, at what Andr? Breton called 'la vitesse grand V.' This is writing of the highest order"?Pierre Joris. LINK? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100312/2d6057bd/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Sat Mar 13 01:41:09 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat Mar 13 01:41:09 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 In-Reply-To: <8CC90716813B30F-4FC4-6C56@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC906FE5F6A2BF-4FC4-6A8B@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> <8CC90716813B30F-4FC4-6C56@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003130031x107bf0eap2c94682440309d73@mail.gmail.com> I know you will not believe it, but I _like_ it! I find it so decadently baroque that it is superb. On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 4:07 AM, wrote: > The blurb is my b?te noire, I'll admit. But this is one of those blurbs > that gives blurbs a bad name... > > "This is an immense book, one in which Notley takes language, as she has > it, 'from hearsay to heresy' by the speed and awe of an unwavering attention > to the seams, seems and semes of words and sentences. This is the work of an > iconoclast, a semioclast, where semantics become seme-antics, and the > byz-antics and -antiques from Christianity to Christine are molten down & > recast into 21st Century mental shapes in the red-hot heart-red retort of a > present day alchemist of mind. Alice Notley has the uncanny ability to go > from the everyday mundane to the psycho-cosmic in one warp-speed stutter or > typo-graphical stumble, at what Andr? Breton called '*la vitesse grand V*.' > This is writing of the highest order"?Pierre Joris. LINK? > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100313/78bc148d/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Sat Mar 13 01:44:42 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat Mar 13 01:44:42 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] some tooting Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003130034m3ff8b6fdp7d5464992cb3dc0d@mail.gmail.com> http://netpoetic.com/ag3art/gallery/ One of my longish works is featured in the Gallery. I would love to receive some feedback / anny.ballardini at gmail.com there is a shortcut: http://www.webalice.it/anny.ballardini/Immortality/Archtecture%20Anny%20Ballardini.html but do go the long way round, plenty of goodies. -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100313/1559a381/attachment.html From bobgrumman Sat Mar 13 04:45:30 2010 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat Mar 13 04:45:30 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71003130031x107bf0eap2c94682440309d73@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CC906FE5F6A2BF-4FC4-6A8B@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com><8CC90716813B30F-4FC4-6C56@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d71003130031x107bf0eap2c94682440309d73@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B9B7974.4070301@nut-n-but.net> Anny Ballardini wrote: > I know you will not believe it, but I _like_ it! I find it so > decadently baroque that it is superb. Yes, but it's pure gush. Which makes me surprised James didn't go for it. --Bob From anny.ballardini Sat Mar 13 04:47:31 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat Mar 13 04:47:31 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 In-Reply-To: <4B9B7974.4070301@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CC906FE5F6A2BF-4FC4-6A8B@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> <8CC90716813B30F-4FC4-6C56@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d71003130031x107bf0eap2c94682440309d73@mail.gmail.com> <4B9B7974.4070301@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003130337g124bcfd6m922c95a50db7d083@mail.gmail.com> Are you already up, Bob? Good morning! The very first warm (well, still March in the Alps) and sunny here... a pity to have to work! On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 12:39 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Anny Ballardini wrote: > >> I know you will not believe it, but I _like_ it! I find it so decadently >> baroque that it is superb. >> > Yes, but it's pure gush. Which makes me surprised James didn't go for it. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100313/143858bf/attachment.html From robin.hamilton2 Sat Mar 13 04:52:13 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat Mar 13 04:52:13 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 In-Reply-To: <4B9B7974.4070301@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CC906FE5F6A2BF-4FC4-6A8B@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com><8CC90716813B30F-4FC4-6C56@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com><4b65c2d71003130031x107bf0eap2c94682440309d73@mail.gmail.com> <4B9B7974.4070301@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <9322D0E4100A491E8E538D3B64713777@RobinLaptopPC> > Anny Ballardini wrote: >> I know you will not believe it, but I _like_ it! I find it so decadently >> baroque that it is superb. > Yes, but it's pure gush. Which makes me surprised James didn't go for it. > > --Bob No it's not -- it actually specifies something about the poems it talks about (that they are orthographic/semantic texts). Thought you might go for that, Bob. (I was almost tempted to buy a copy.) Gush, sure, but you have to gush a bit in a blurb -- and look who it was signed by. It's always worth checking the signatures of blurbs to see if just possibly, when you cut through the inevitable noise, they might have been written by someone whose judgment is worth considering. Robin From bobgrumman Sat Mar 13 05:26:36 2010 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat Mar 13 05:26:36 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 In-Reply-To: <9322D0E4100A491E8E538D3B64713777@RobinLaptopPC> References: <8CC906FE5F6A2BF-4FC4-6A8B@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com><8CC90716813B30F-4FC4-6C56@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com><4b65c2 d71003130031x107bf0eap2c94682440309d73@mail.gmail.com><4B9B7974.4070301@nut-n-but.net> <9322D0E4100A491E8E538D3B64713777@RobinLaptopPC> Message-ID: <4B9B8314.6090101@nut-n-but.net> Robin Hamilton wrote: >> Anny Ballardini wrote: >>> I know you will not believe it, but I _like_ it! I find it so >>> decadently baroque that it is superb. >> Yes, but it's pure gush. Which makes me surprised James didn't go >> for it. >> >> --Bob > > No it's not -- it actually specifies something about the poems it > talks about (that they are orthographic/semantic texts). Thought you > might go for that, Bob. (I was almost tempted to buy a copy.) You're right, Robin, not /pure/ gush, just close to it. > > Gush, sure, but you have to gush a bit in a blurb -- and look who it > was signed by. > > It's always worth checking the signatures of blurbs to see if just > possibly, when you cut through the inevitable noise, they might have > been written by someone whose judgment is worth considering. Okay, but when I blurb, I try to do more, even cite a poem or part of a poem, to help a reader. Assuming I'm give more than a ten-word limit, as has happened. --Bob -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100313/e18d0a8c/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Sat Mar 13 05:35:44 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat Mar 13 05:35:44 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 In-Reply-To: <4B9B8314.6090101@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CC906FE5F6A2BF-4FC4-6A8B@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> <8CC90716813B30F-4FC4-6C56@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> <4B9B7974.4070301@nut-n-but.net> <9322D0E4100A491E8E538D3B64713777@RobinLaptopPC> <4B9B8314.6090101@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003130425r78864af8p4078ad6be18bd1b6@mail.gmail.com> I already ordered the book some two months ago. I haven't received it yet, it will be here one of these days now. On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 1:20 PM, Bob Grumman wrote: > Robin Hamilton wrote: > > Anny Ballardini wrote: > > I know you will not believe it, but I _like_ it! I find it so decadently > baroque that it is superb. > > Yes, but it's pure gush. Which makes me surprised James didn't go for it. > > --Bob > > > No it's not -- it actually specifies something about the poems it talks > about (that they are orthographic/semantic texts). Thought you might go for > that, Bob. (I was almost tempted to buy a copy.) > > You're right, Robin, not *pure* gush, just close to it. > > > > Gush, sure, but you have to gush a bit in a blurb -- and look who it was > signed by. > > It's always worth checking the signatures of blurbs to see if just > possibly, when you cut through the inevitable noise, they might have been > written by someone whose judgment is worth considering. > > Okay, but when I blurb, I try to do more, even cite a poem or part of a > poem, to help a reader. Assuming I'm give more than a ten-word limit, as > has happened. > > --Bob > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100313/4155cc10/attachment.html From robin.hamilton2 Sat Mar 13 05:42:06 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat Mar 13 05:42:06 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 In-Reply-To: <4B9B8314.6090101@nut-n-but.net> References: <8CC906FE5F6A2BF-4FC4-6A8B@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com><8CC90716813B30F-4FC4-6C56@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com><4b65c2d71003130031x107bf0eap2c94682440309d73@mail.gmail.com><4B9B7974.4070301@nut-n-but.net><9322D0E4100A491E8E538D3B64713777@RobinLaptopPC> <4B9B8314.6090101@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: << Okay, but when I blurb, I try to do more, even cite a poem or part of a poem, to help a reader. Assuming I'm give more than a ten-word limit, as has happened. --Bob >> K, fair, and I'd have liked a direct quote or two myself. Maybe if there'd been even one direct quote, I'd have pushed my interest further. Tom Leonard followed up his blurb on nick-e melville (where I *did buy a copy, and worth every penny -- sorry, cent -- I spent on it -- laughed till I nearly ruptured myself) with a longer entry on his blog (which I only read *after I bought the book on the back of Tom's [and Geoff Huth's] blurb), so there may be a follow-up in the link given to PJ's blogsite. (I presume that's where the (hyper)link lead.) Dunno. When it came down to it, I had too much on my mind [trying to read a bare transcript of of Dekker's _Westward Ho_] to chase the link, and the book finally sounded more your scene than mine. The life so short, the art so long to learn ... Robin From robin.hamilton2 Sat Mar 13 05:47:28 2010 From: robin.hamilton2 (Robin Hamilton) Date: Sat Mar 13 05:47:28 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71003130425r78864af8p4078ad6be18bd1b6@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CC906FE5F6A2BF-4FC4-6A8B@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com><8CC90716813B30F-4FC4-6C56@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com><4B9B7974.4070301@nut-n-but.net><9322D0E4100A491E8E538D3B64713777@RobinLaptopPC><4B9B8314.6090101@nut-n-but.net> <4b65c2d71003130425r78864af8p4078ad6be18bd1b6@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Let us know what you think of it when you finally get it, Anny. One more concurring judgement might push me into buying it! Robin ----- Original Message ----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Saturday, March 13, 2010 12:25 PM Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 I already ordered the book some two months ago. I haven't received it yet, it will be here one of these days now. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100313/05bfcc0d/attachment.html From bobgrumman Sat Mar 13 06:41:05 2010 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Sat Mar 13 06:41:05 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71003130337g124bcfd6m922c95a50db7d083@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CC906FE5F6A2BF-4FC4-6A8B@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com><8CC90716813B30F-4FC4-6C56@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com><4b65c2 d71003130031x107bf0eap2c94682440309d73@mail.gmail.com><4B9B7974.4070301@nut-n-but.net> <4b65c2d71003130337g124bcfd6m922c95a50db7d083@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B9B9489.3090809@nut-n-but.net> Anny Ballardini wrote: > Are you already up, Bob? Good morning! The very first warm (well, > still March in the Alps) and sunny here... a pity to have to work! I'm always up by 6 AM, never want to be but can't get back to sleep. We've continued to have weather that's cold for this time of year in Florida, but today seems to be starting out sunny. all best, Bob--who may soon be away for a week or more, out of town and away from a computer. From jforjames Sat Mar 13 08:01:01 2010 From: jforjames (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Sat Mar 13 08:01:01 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71003130031x107bf0eap2c94682440309d73@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CC906FE5F6A2BF-4FC4-6A8B@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com><8CC90716813B30F-4FC4-6C56@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com> <4b65c2d71003130031x107bf0eap2c94682440309d73@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8CC90D3B01C5681-2470-CFEB@webmail-m012.sysops.aol.com> I'm sure Pierre Joris' judgement is just fine. But, unlike Robin, I don't think of blurbs as being matters of judgement. They are hypepoetics or 'hyperbollocks' to carry on the theme of wordplay so much in evidence in this blurb. I've perfected a warp-speed strut but I'm still working on my 'warp-speed stutter'. Finnegan -----Original Message----- From: Anny Ballardini To: NewPoetry: Contemporary Poetry News &,Views Sent: Sat, Mar 13, 2010 3:31 am Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 I know you will not believe it, but I _like_ it! I find it so decadently baroque that it is superb. On Sat, Mar 13, 2010 at 4:07 AM, wrote: The blurb is my b?te noire, I'll admit. But this is one of those blurbs that gives blurbs a bad name... "This is an immense book, one in which Notley takes language, as she has it, 'from hearsay to heresy' by the speed and awe of an unwavering attention to the seams, seems and semes of words and sentences. This is the work of an iconoclast, a semioclast, where semantics become seme-antics, and the byz-antics and -antiques from Christianity to Christine are molten down & recast into 21st Century mental shapes in the red-hot heart-red retort of a present day alchemist of mind. Alice Notley has the uncanny ability to go from the everyday mundane to the psycho-cosmic in one warp-speed stutter or typo-graphical stumble, at what Andr? Breton called 'la vitesse grand V.' This is writing of the highest order"?Pierre Joris. LINK? _______________________________________________ New-Poetry mailing list New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100313/df0e56f1/attachment.html From jforjames Sat Mar 13 11:07:18 2010 From: jforjames (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Sat Mar 13 11:07:18 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 In-Reply-To: <8CC90D3B01C5681-2470-CFEB@webmail-m012.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC906FE5F6A2BF-4FC4-6A8B@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com><8CC90716813B30F-4FC4-6C56@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com><4b65c2d71003130031x107bf0eap2c94682440309d73@mail.gmail.com> <8CC90D3B01C5681-2470-CFEB@webmail-m012.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC90EDB9026BD4-2470-F1D3@webmail-m012.sysops.aol.com> In my country, ?blue sky laws' against blurbing were passed, blurbs were abolished and publishers were required to print this message on the back covers of their books? "What are looking for back here: assurance, sponsorship, boosterism? Open the book and read." - Finnegan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100313/181838ed/attachment.html From jforjames Sat Mar 13 11:13:35 2010 From: jforjames (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Sat Mar 13 11:13:35 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 In-Reply-To: <8CC90EDB9026BD4-2470-F1D3@webmail-m012.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC906FE5F6A2BF-4FC4-6A8B@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com><8CC90716813B30F-4FC4-6C56@webmail-m094.sysops.aol.com><4b65c2d71003130031x107bf0eap2c94682440309d73@mail.gmail.com><8CC90D3B01C5681-2470-CFEB@webmail-m012.sysops.aol.com> <8CC90EDB9026BD4-2470-F1D3@webmail-m012.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <8CC90EE93E255E7-2470-F308@webmail-m012.sysops.aol.com> Correction and addition: In my country, ?blue sky laws' against blurbing were passed, blurbs were abolished and publishers were required to print this message on the back covers of their books? "What are you looking for back here: assurance, sponsorship, boosterism? Open the book and read." - Tout, n. 1. Chiefly British One who obtains information on racehorses and their prospects and sells it to bettors. 2. One who solicits customers brazenly or persistently. Synonym: blurber. -- -----Original Message----- From: jforjames at aol.com To: new-poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu Sent: Sat, Mar 13, 2010 12:57 pm Subject: Re: [New-Poetry] Fwd: SPD RECOMMENDS! New Titles March 1-15 In my country, ?blue sky laws' against blurbing were passed, blurbs were abolished and publishers were required to print this message on the back covers of their books? "What are looking for back here: assurance, sponsorship, boosterism? Open the book and read." - Finnegan _______________________________________________ ew-Poetry mailing list ew-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu ttp://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100313/41ae52fa/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Sat Mar 13 13:16:27 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sat Mar 13 13:16:27 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Webopedia Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003131206s3125cb7dud3d7472dc2ebee44@mail.gmail.com> I haven't used it in such a long time, and it is still there: http://www.webopedia.com/ -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100313/551180cb/attachment.html From eposamentier Sat Mar 13 14:45:26 2010 From: eposamentier (Evelyn Posamentier) Date: Sat Mar 13 14:45:26 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Very OT: Californians for Education Funding (much apologies for cross-posting) Message-ID: <801835.27695.qm@web31807.mail.mud.yahoo.com> A message from a daily lurker: I'm writing to tell you that all California schools (K - Nobel folk) succeded in our March 4 Day of Action rally throughout the state (and a number nationally, as well) to support our demand for proper educational funding. Thousands of us statewide participated in Walkouts and Rallies. While considerable media coverage was of small highway sitins, most of us attended and conducted rallies at our various sites. The next major California action takes place on March 22. Buses from all over the state will be converging in Sacramento, our state capitol, and then marching to Mr. Schwarzenegger's door. I'm asking you all to keep us in your thoughts that day. (You might say that this is Poetry in Motion!) Thanks for listening! Lurkers Anonymous p.s By way of introduction, google me to see some of my work -- From jforjames Sat Mar 13 16:57:31 2010 From: jforjames (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Sat Mar 13 16:57:31 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] April is Poetry Month In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CC911EA4499F0F-4634-12870@webmail-m060.sysops.aol.com> We make a dwelling in the evening air, In which being there together is enough. ?Wallace Stevens, from "Final Soliloquy of the Interior Paramour." The Academy of American Poets (www.poets.org) features this Stevens quote on their 2010 Poetry Month poster. Members are sent one free, but anyone can request a poster here... http://www.poets.org/page.php/prmID/98 Finnegan -- -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100313/04e20e61/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Sun Mar 14 01:24:35 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun Mar 14 01:24:35 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] April is Poetry Month In-Reply-To: <8CC911EA4499F0F-4634-12870@webmail-m060.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC911EA4499F0F-4634-12870@webmail-m060.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003140014u2855ada9mb5d2f2c94df400d4@mail.gmail.com> Wonderful all, quotation, design, everything. On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 12:47 AM, wrote: > We make a dwelling in the evening air, > In which being there together is enough. > > ?Wallace Stevens, from "Final Soliloquy of the Interior Paramour." > > > The Academy of American Poets (www.poets.org) features this Stevens quote > on their 2010 Poetry Month poster. > > Members are sent one free, but anyone can request a poster here... > http://www.poets.org/page.php/prmID/98 > > Finnegan > > -- > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100314/49183aa1/attachment.html From jforjames Sun Mar 14 09:11:22 2010 From: jforjames (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Sun Mar 14 09:11:22 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Armantrout wins 2009 Nat'l Book Critics Circle Award Message-ID: <8CC91A6B3761F2A-2E4C-6CFE@webmail-d024.sysops.aol.com> http://www.articleant.com/gen/48945-faculty-poet-honored-for-new-collection.html University of California, San Diego poet Rae Armantrout has won the 2009 award from the National Book Critics Circle for "Versed" (Wesleyan University Press). The awards were announced March 11 at the New School's Tishman Auditorium in New York. Armantrout's 10th collection of poems, "Versed" was cited by the NBCC "for its demonstration of superb intellect and technique, its melding of experimental poetics but down-to-earth subject matter to create poems you are compelled to return to, that get richer with each reading." "Versed" also was selected as a finalist for the 2009 National Book Award. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100314/8143873f/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Sun Mar 14 09:18:20 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun Mar 14 09:18:20 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] a mathematical day Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003140908g43935bb3q6f91e0e29a5cd5a5@mail.gmail.com> from the Writer's Almanac Today is *Albert Einstein's * (books by this author) birthday. He was born in Ulm, Germany (1879), and his pre-kindergarten fascination with a compass needle left an impression on him that lasted a lifetime. He liked math but hated school, dropped out, and taught himself calculus in the meantime. Einstein worked for the Swiss Patent Office in Bern, where his job was to evaluate patent applications for electromagnetic devices and determine whether the inventions described would actually work. The job wasn't particularly demanding, and at night he would come home and pursue scientific investigations and theories. In 1905, he wrote a paper on the Special Theory of Relativity, which is that if the speed of light is constant and if all natural laws are the same in every frame of reference, then both time and motion are relative to the observer. That same year, he published three more papers, each of which was just as revolutionary as the first, among them the paper that included his most famous equation: *E* = *mc*2. E is energy, m is mass, and c stands for the velocity of light. Einstein received the Nobel Prize in physics in 1921. He said, "The pursuit of truth and beauty is a sphere of activity in which we are permitted to remain children all our lives." Today is *Pi Day *, in honor of the mathematical constant pi (?), an irrational number that begins 3.14 -- like today's date, March 14th or 3/14. ? is a letter of the Greek alphabet, and it's the symbol for the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter. In other words, if a circle has a diameter of 10 inches, we could find out its circumference by multiplying 10 inches by ?, and we'd find out that the circle with a 10-inch diameter has a circumference (or perimeter) of approximately 31.4159265. It can only ever be approximate -- never exact -- because ? is an irrational number, meaning that it goes on forever without repeating or having patterns. Using powerful computers, ? has been calculated in recent years into trillions of decimal places. Pi Day began in 1988, started by a physicist named Larry Shaw. And just last year, in 2009, the U.S. House of Representatives passed a non-binding resolution designating today as National Pi Day. Pi Day celebrations around the nation today involve eating dessert pies or pizza pies, throwing cream pies, and listening to lectures on the importance of the irrational number -- sometimes all of these things occurring in unison. There are legions of people worldwide devoted to memorizing ? to as far as they can memorize it. And today around the world, there are ? recitation contests. The world record, according to the Guinness Book, is currently held by Lu Chao, a grad student from China, who over the course of 24 hours and 4 minutes recited pi to the 67,890th decimal place without error. To aid in the memorization of the never-ending, pattern-less number, people have written poetry and stories in a mnemonic called "Pilish," which is a way of constrained writing "in which the number of letters in each successive word "spells out" the digits of ?." One of the earliest and best-known examples of it was a sentence by English physicist Sir James Jeans, who wrote: "How I need a drink, alcoholic in nature, after the heavy lectures involving quantum mechanics!" 'How' has three letters, 'I' has one, "need" has four -- so it forms 3.14, the start of ? -- and each successive word's letter count represents the next digit in ?. Then, in 1996, a piphilologist (as these people are called), wrote a 3,834-digit *Cadaeic Cadenza*, which begins with a retelling of Edgar Allan Poe's "The Raven"; every single word adheres to the constraints that render letter counts into accurate successive ? digits. -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche << Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae >> Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100314/77eb72af/attachment.html From junction Sun Mar 14 09:39:32 2010 From: junction (Mark Weiss) Date: Sun Mar 14 09:39:32 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Armantrout wins 2009 Nat'l Book Critics Circle Award In-Reply-To: <8CC91A6B3761F2A-2E4C-6CFE@webmail-d024.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC91A6B3761F2A-2E4C-6CFE@webmail-d024.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: Wonderful! At 12:01 PM 3/14/2010, you wrote: >http://www.articleant.com/gen/48945-faculty-poet-honored-for-new-collection.html > >University of California, San Diego poet Rae Armantrout has won the >2009 award from the National Book Critics Circle for "Versed" >(Wesleyan University Press). The awards were announced March 11 at >the New School's Tishman Auditorium in New York. > >Armantrout's 10th collection of poems, "Versed" was cited by the >NBCC "for its demonstration of superb intellect and technique, its >melding of experimental poetics but down-to-earth subject matter to >create poems you are compelled to return to, that get richer with >each reading." > >"Versed" also was selected as a finalist for the 2009 National Book Award. > >_______________________________________________ >New-Poetry mailing list >New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu >http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry Announcing The Whole Island: Six Decades of Cuban Poetry (University of California Press). http://go.ucpress.edu/WholeIsland "Not since the 1982 publication of Paul Auster's Random House Book of Twentieth Century French Poetry has a bilingual anthology so effectively broadened the sense of poetic terrain outside the United States and also created a superb collection of foreign poems in English. There is nothing else like it." John Palattella in The Nation -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100314/c8211a1c/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Sun Mar 14 09:40:06 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun Mar 14 09:40:06 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Armantrout wins 2009 Nat'l Book Critics Circle Award In-Reply-To: <8CC91A6B3761F2A-2E4C-6CFE@webmail-d024.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC91A6B3761F2A-2E4C-6CFE@webmail-d024.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003140909g7391bbc5n796748fa6470737e@mail.gmail.com> Ach! and I thought I would get it! Armantrout is anyhow a favorite, congratulations to her! On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 5:01 PM, wrote: > > http://www.articleant.com/gen/48945-faculty-poet-honored-for-new-collection.html > > University of California, San Diego poet Rae Armantrout has won the 2009 > award from the National Book Critics Circle for "Versed" (Wesleyan > University Press). The awards were announced March 11 at the New School's > Tishman Auditorium in New York. > > Armantrout's 10th collection of poems, "Versed" was cited by the NBCC "for > its demonstration of superb intellect and technique, its melding of > experimental poetics but down-to-earth subject matter to create poems you > are compelled to return to, that get richer with each reading." > > "Versed" also was selected as a finalist for the 2009 National Book Award. > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100314/01a1843b/attachment.html From david.weinstock Sun Mar 14 09:55:56 2010 From: david.weinstock (David Weinstock) Date: Sun Mar 14 09:55:56 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] a mathematical day In-Reply-To: <4b65c2d71003140908g43935bb3q6f91e0e29a5cd5a5@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d71003140908g43935bb3q6f91e0e29a5cd5a5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <437b1e3a1003140945l69b0fc80l4e1fcf7c69ba586e@mail.gmail.com> In 4th grade in a little country school in New Jersey, a friend and I challenged each other to memorize pi. I reached about 70 digits; he went on to 100. Both efforts far exceed any conceivable practical use for the ratio -- one could calculate the volume of the entire universe without needing that precise a value of pi and not be wrong by half a cubic inch. My friend is now a professor of physics, and I'm not, but I can still rattle off the digits to about two dozen places. Happy Pi Day! David 3/14/10 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100314/9e75ff27/attachment.html From jforjames Sun Mar 14 09:58:49 2010 From: jforjames (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Sun Mar 14 09:58:49 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] caves of Lascaux Message-ID: <8CC91AD55509C1C-2E4C-73A9@webmail-d024.sysops.aol.com> http://www.lascaux.culture.fr/#/fr/00.xml You might enjoy this site. I understand the paintings are threatened by a creeping mold of some sort. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100314/2a6c2f1f/attachment.html From jbalizsprince Sun Mar 14 10:16:15 2010 From: jbalizsprince (Judy Prince) Date: Sun Mar 14 10:16:15 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] caves of Lascaux In-Reply-To: <8CC91AD55509C1C-2E4C-73A9@webmail-d024.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC91AD55509C1C-2E4C-73A9@webmail-d024.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <7db1d01b1003141006q54edeffdq57f8b089ec91c094@mail.gmail.com> What a glorious excursion, Jim! Thank you so much for sending the URL for this magnificent tour; I'll be forwarding it to family and friends. BTW, in the last panel, "Panneau de l'homme blesse", it looked as if there were PRINTING just above the animal. Wow. Best, Judy On 14 March 2010 12:48, wrote: > http://www.lascaux.culture.fr/#/fr/00.xml > > You might enjoy this site. I understand the paintings are threatened by a > creeping mold of some sort. > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Frisky Moll Press: http://judithprince.com/home.html http://www.thenervousbreakdown.com/author/jprince/ "Southern hospitality has ten years left." ---Jeff Hecker, Norfolk, VA -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100314/634f24dd/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Sun Mar 14 10:29:49 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun Mar 14 10:29:49 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] a mathematical day In-Reply-To: <437b1e3a1003140945l69b0fc80l4e1fcf7c69ba586e@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d71003140908g43935bb3q6f91e0e29a5cd5a5@mail.gmail.com> <437b1e3a1003140945l69b0fc80l4e1fcf7c69ba586e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003141019y782074fby6e304b027682c6fc@mail.gmail.com> Happiest, and congratulations! On Sun, Mar 14, 2010 at 5:45 PM, David Weinstock wrote: > In 4th grade in a little country school in New Jersey, a friend and I > challenged each other to memorize pi. I reached about 70 digits; he went on > to 100. Both efforts far exceed any conceivable practical use for the ratio > -- one could calculate the volume of the entire universe without needing > that precise a value of pi and not be wrong by half a cubic inch. > > My friend is now a professor of physics, and I'm not, but I can still > rattle off the digits to about two dozen places. > > Happy Pi Day! > > David 3/14/10 > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100314/b68aa668/attachment.html From rwilsnac Sun Mar 14 10:44:02 2010 From: rwilsnac (Richard Wilsnack) Date: Sun Mar 14 10:44:02 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] caves of Lascaux In-Reply-To: <8CC91AD55509C1C-2E4C-73A9@webmail-d024.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CC91AD55509C1C-2E4C-73A9@webmail-d024.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <4B9D1E11.7090307@medicine.nodak.edu> jforjames at aol.com wrote: > http://www.lascaux.culture.fr/#/fr/00.xml > > You might enjoy this site. I understand the paintings are threatened > by a creeping mold of some sort. The story that I have been told is that too many visits by too many people have introduced too much moisture into the formerly dry atmosphere of the cave, enabling fungi to grow on the walls. The solution may have to be greatly restricted visits to the site. So those of us who don't get to go will have to enjoy images such as you have provided. Richard W. Wilsnack rwilsnac at medicine.nodak.edu -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100314/a9b4efdb/attachment.html From grahamd Sun Mar 14 19:28:34 2010 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Sun Mar 14 19:28:34 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Observing Pi on a mathematical day In-Reply-To: <437b1e3a1003140945l69b0fc80l4e1fcf7c69ba586e@mail.gmail.com> References: <4b65c2d71003140908g43935bb3q6f91e0e29a5cd5a5@mail.gmail.com> <437b1e3a1003140945l69b0fc80l4e1fcf7c69ba586e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <8C9E0D9C-DAE4-45B2-94D5-3985B0B2C3D9@ripon.edu> Here's an older poem of mine--certainly the only one I've ever written on a mathematical theme. . . . As I recall, the poem was triggered by an article in the New Yorker about the construction of a supercomputer in an attempt to work out Pi to the most possible decimal points. Observing Pi Thousands of numerals scroll up the screen, instances of the inexplicable, and the room heats as if with strain, but it's just light bursting against the computer's dumb retina, the glow of absolute method unfolding absolutely--these random digits aimed in the general direction of God, the welcome end of all axioms. Any skull will circle to contemplate its own diameter, zeroing in closer, closer, but never arriving. Pi is some super-Alaska, peak upon nameless peak, far beyond all maps. Yet in every infinity some order occurs by accident. Snatches of Beethoven's Fifth, all my old phone numbers, the genetic code of cockroaches, stock market quotes from 2004-- all these and their negations exist in Pi, along with test scores and tax refunds. Staring at the luminous terminal I think: it's You again, isn't it, Ancient of Days? You always loved a riddle, a test, a bet, some cosmic tit-for-tat such as undid Job and the prodigal's brother. Though fewer today believe that You mean it in some old testament way --righteous locusts blacking the horizon-- You're so huge there's no way to tell true chance from Your maybe accidental truth. Yes, Nameless One, I'm talking to myself, as I might address a cold front or tide, a slim shiver of wind in the top branches, and if I'm faithful it is because I'll never know the next digit before it comes--and know that I will never know. Out of the pearly winter skies today come millions of skittish snowflakes, teased down by the transcendental wind. So I stand, head back-tilted, gazing far into that downrushing swarm. I am observing Pi, that much I will admit, and how my mind is perfectly chilled with it. --David Graham. Tampa Review 11 (Fall 1995) ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== On Mar 14, 2010, at 11:45 AM, David Weinstock wrote: > In 4th grade in a little country school in New Jersey, a friend and I challenged each other to memorize pi. I reached about 70 digits; he went on to 100. Both efforts far exceed any conceivable practical use for the ratio -- one could calculate the volume of the entire universe without needing that precise a value of pi and not be wrong by half a cubic inch. > > My friend is now a professor of physics, and I'm not, but I can still rattle off the digits to about two dozen places. > > Happy Pi Day! > > David 3/14/10 > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100314/bc6985e0/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Sun Mar 14 23:24:49 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Sun Mar 14 23:24:49 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Announcing GALLOWGLASS by Susan Tichy! In-Reply-To: <5a884fa068-anny.ballardini=gmail.com@mail.vresp.com> References: <5a884fa068-anny.ballardini=gmail.com@mail.vresp.com> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003142314i6acdde7bvdc9adb0ddada6671@mail.gmail.com> Forward this message to a friend Click to view this email in a browser N O W A V A I L A B L E : Gallowglass by Susan Tichy [image: TichyCoverSlice.gif] *20% OFF* Receive a discount with this e-mail only! Buy Susan Tichy's Gallowglass at a discount by clicking here: ?In Irish history, *gallowglass* refers to mercenary soldiers. In Tichy?s expansive exploration of war and empire, we are all gallowglasses of sorts, for Americans? apparently peaceful lives are intermeshed with wars around the globe. Tichy?s style is that of the montage, bringing together apparently disparate moments ranging from personal experience to ancient history to biblical or mythic incidents. When effective, it is both dazzling and jarring: ?Look up mural in the dictionary, and you wind up at immure. / Malaria drug caused panic attacks, but only after exposure to a dead Iraqi soldier . . . It?s a simple truth: a helicopter choked by sand is not a combat casualty. / On the grand staircase, a wedding party posed for enough photographs to start a museum.? This is a challenging book. Tichy, by never turning her face from the horrors of war, demands that the reader confront complicity?an uncomfortable proposition. *A tour-de-force of political but highly personal poetry.*? ?Patricia Monaghan in *Booklist* ------------------------------ *Poem* *From Gallowglass: Readable Means* *for Clea Koff* Fish vertebrae imbedded in sand Tarmac compressed by the weight of tanks Perfectly readable, yes, though you can?t lift it Find the fingernails of this one Scattered loose on the clothing of that one ?If you clear vegetation wherever you find human bones You will make a desert? ? Skeleton found on top of a coffin Illuminator?s puzzle book Made for one who already knows it by heart What can you use? A root means fit together, and a root means arm ? A shark tail with its whole spine I pick it up but can?t explain it Packed so tightly into a church When they died they did not fall down Fingers, house keys, clothing, hair Two or three hundred excited gulls In the air above some trees ?My dream about the man who woke up? ?Machete cuts in the doors? Copyright ? 2010 by Susan Tichy ------------------------------ *Gallowglass* Tichy is a poet embedded: with U.S. troops in Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, twined together through history; in the landscape disrupted by war, perseverating on a deer killed by a mountain lion, or hearing direction in birdsong; and in the language of war??gallowglass? is a corruption of a Gaelic word for ?mercenary soldier,? and dark, ancient ballads appear like forensic evidence. Surrounded by cultural touchstones from Pythagoras to the Grateful Dead, Tichy refuses to let the reader?s gaze, or her own, turn from the violence of modern living. ------------------------------ *Praise for the book: * ?Unsettling both our comfort and our aesthetic expectations, Tichy superimposes Iraq and Afghanistan on Vietnam, birdsong and ballad and art on recent history. It is difficult to think of another poet who uses experimentation to such fine and expansive purpose.? *?Martha Collins* ?These are poems of startling intimacy, poems whose courage is not in girding courage together, but in loosening it, opening it, showing how the personal is no refuge, but is instead the very place in which history and self converge into a complicated and complicit consciousness . . . it is birdsong and bullet simultaneous.??*Dan Beachy-Quick* ------------------------------ [image: TichyCover-sm.jpg] Take advantage of this one-time-only offer! Susan Tichy?s Gallowglass at a 20% discount, only through this e-mail Susan Tichy?s Author Statement *Gallowglass* is a book about grief, both public and private; it asks *how*to grieve in a history and a culture so permeated with images of imperialism and war. I wrote these poems under the profound influence of Scottish traditional songs and ballads, which cast their resistance to war in the form of lament?for the dead, the maimed, the recruited, and the left behind?and whose multiple versions, moveable verses, and shifting speakers prefigure the rich, communal aspects of collage. ?Gallowglass? is an Anglicized form of the Gaelic* gal-**?glac* (Irish: * gall?glaich*) a foreign soldier or mercenary. The sequence of ghazals from which the book takes its title tracks this figure in forms both linguistic and human: in the foreign combatants of Iraq and Afghanistan; in words and phrases misplaced, made ?foreign? through collage; and in the life and death of my husband, who returned to Vietnam thirty years after he fought there, and who also traveled, in his restless, post-war years, through all the desert countries our military currently occupies. ?American Ghazals,? I call them, because I wish to acknowledge the occupation of foreign soil, and because, let?s face it, they are to real ghazals what American cheese is to real cheese. I built the poems from the onslaught of media images and from my own memories?over-stimulated by my husband?s death and the new wars?but lightened the work, depersonalized it, with procedural rules for the inclusion and exclusion of images. Collage allows images to become a way of thinking, and in *Gallowglass*, part of my thinking is about images themselves. Are the immanence and autonomy we assign to poetic images distinguishable from the perpetual framing and reframing of mediated images? Both pass before us in an unending stream of transformation, blurring categories of time, place, and possession, wearing away, as Lao Tzu says, into completion. Is a Taoist reality of presentation commensurate with the phantasmagoria of representation that now passes for information? Can we live in that stream of images while resisting their imperialist claim of universal access to others? experience? I have tried in *Gallowglass* to model some possibilities. In collage every juncture can feel like conflict; but its gaps also let in the light: transformation, detachment, and the possibility of creative error. The transcendence offered is metonymic?social and communal, rather than metaphysical, the private embedded in the public. After the ghazals, the ?Crossed Roads? of section two occupy a less predictable formal landscape, overloaded with intersections and distances, because, as one reader said to me, ?War moves things around in weird ways.? Some of the images moved around have already been woven through the ghazals: tea, animals, birds and bird-song, mountain paths, news-talk, ballads, weapons, bodies and body parts, vehicles, buildings, pairs of opposites, pairs of complements, definitions, mistakes, substitutions, guitars. Encounter is key, as is ?checkpoint etiquette,? both military and supernatural; but so too is seeking?in the characters of a war photographer, a forensic anthropologist, a camp survivor recording birdsong, an assembler of broken artifacts, a song sparrow eating ?what the other birds kick down.? In the third section, ?Trebuchet?, that assembler of artifacts has her say. Inspired by and partially collaged from Rhonda Shearer?s forensic examination of Marcel Duchamp?s *Tr?buchet* series of readymade hat and coatracks, the poem investigates complex relationships among representation, readability, deception and self-deception. Duchamp announced his Readymades as unaltered *objects* of art, not *works* of art, created by selection and framing alone. On that claim rest generations of work making art as an act of perception, not a thing. But Duchamp was a trickster, and Shearer claims his photographs weren?t innocent. If he cut and pasted, made and remade, finally reframing them as representations of pure, found objects, what act of perception are we talking about? What faith? And how, now, would we know a real object if we saw one? My ?Trebuchet? sets out to investigate and to reconstruct a body, composed not from objects, but from representations of objects: the broken and photographed bodies of Abu Ghraib, framed (or constructed) as terrorists; the lost, broken, and yet still catalogued objects of Iraq?s looted museums, framed (and reconstructed) as treasures; the psyches of soldiers catalogued in a US Army manual of field psychology, (deconstructed) and framed as data. The assembler, of course, has ?only forged what is.? The book?s last transition is its most extreme, from the greatest distance to an absolute lack of distance. One reader of *Gallowglass* said the first three sections were constantly asking ?How do you look at the dead? How do you show them?? and the last section answered ?Like this.? In ?Book Land Night,? my husband?s death, half-told in the ghazals, returns as the overwhelming fact. In ?Gallowglass? and ?Crossed Roads,? personal images are used like any other material, separable from their contexts, so I am more instrument than source. In the three poems of ?Book Land Night? *all* images are personal, drawn from memory or from dream; yet they are not detached from the other poems. I know when I turned from these to the first of the ghazals I felt I was keeping all the same elements in play, merely displacing the personal from center stage to chorus. War, birds, body parts, tea, ?the rescue of dead men??all recur here. Most different, I suppose, is the setting of mountains?where we lived and where he died?though nowhere is the story fully told. What happened happened, but the action of collage makes it not so much a narrative as a way to live: not grief and then recovery, but a constantly recurring consciousness. *How to grieve*?moment by moment?and how, moment by moment, to let grief go. That sounds glib as I type it, but I typed very slowly in those days. [image: susanT1.gif] ?When I googled *The Quicksilver Times* I discovered that one of the staff members, whom I had dated for a while when I was 17, was later unmasked as a CIA spy, sent to the *QT* to uncover vast sums of Chinese money Nixon believed was funding the paper. (Alas, there was none.)??Susan Tichy Author Bio: I was born in Washington, D.C., and raised in Maryland?one foot in the empire and one in the greenwood. Our house was full of all things Scottish, so I knew traditional Scottish ballads from infancy. My sense of poetry is rooted in their idiosyncratic mix of elegant form and mortal stakes, as is my sense of poetry?s inherently political nature. Thanks to one bohemian aunt our house was also full of books, among them *The Golden Treasury of Poetry*, edited by Louis Untermeyer. This anthology (which I still have) was designed for children (big pages, lots of illustrations) but filled with real poems from Chaucer to the 1950s. There I first read Wordsworth, Keats, Byron, the Brownings, Dickinson, Whitman, John Clare, as well as Hopkins, Yeats, Eliot, cummings, Roethke, and Bishop. When I was fourteen, I discovered Dylan Thomas, and, like many young poets before and since, learned from him that language could be an addictive drug. Ginsberg and Ferlinghetti followed, but a bigger epiphany was Paul Carroll?s anthology, *The Young American Poets*, published when I was sixteen. These were poets only a few years older than I; their biographies informed me that a person could get a degree in writing poetry; and their poems said the inner and outer lives could actually meet somewhere in contemporary vernacular. A few of these poets were (like the great majority of ballad singers) female. In my teens, I was a small but active cog in the antiwar machinery in Washington, and my first poems were published in *The Quicksilver Times*, an underground newspaper, which I also sold on the street. I graduated from high school in 1970, and attended Macalester College in St. Paul. While a student, I helped to found one of St. Paul?s many communes, and soon left college to work in a community clinic and an inner city high school. I finished my BA in 1975, at Goddard College in Plainfield, VT, and my M.A. at the University of Colorado, Boulder, in 1979. In 1977 I spent four months picking fruit, painting fences, and herding cattle on an Israeli kibbutz on the Golan Heights, which became the focus of my first book, *The Hands in Exile.* This manuscript was chosen by Sandra MacPherson for inclusion in the National Poetry Series and was published by Random House. It also received a Eugene Kayden Award. The poet who most visibly influenced this book was Yehuda Amichai, but I was also paying close attention to Nazim Hikmet, Pablo Neruda, C?sar Vallejo, Adrienne Rich, James Wright, and Gary Snyder. All my early work was influenced by Snyder?s outdoor ethic, Zen humor, strong accentual rhythms, and dense sound. In the early 1980s, I married Michael O?Hanlon, a Vietnam combat veteran who was a Colorado native and a mountaineer. We designed and built a cabin in Rosita, a silver-mining ghost town in the southern Colorado Rockies, and lived there fulltime for six years, sans electricity, running water, or telephone? though we did have the world?s smallest Amnesty International group. In later years, we owned a bookstore in Westcliffe, the nearest town, and were board members for a local land trust working to protect open land from development. In 1985, when Michael was working on a semi-autobiographical novel set in the Philippines, we sold something or other to pay for plane tickets and spent a month in Tarlac Province, P.I., researching its political history and the human rights catastrophes of the 1970s. I subsequently learned that my great-great uncle had been military commander of Tarlac in the most brutal phase of the Philippine-American War, at the turn of the 20th century. Thus. . . [continue reading... ] ------------------------------ [image: ram_logo.gif] Ahsahta Press, 1910 University Drive?MS 1525, Boise, ID 83725 ------------------------------ If you no longer wish to receive these emails, please reply to this message with "Unsubscribe" in the subject line or simply click on the following link: Unsubscribe ------------------------------ Ahsahta Press Boise State University 1910 University Drive, MS 1525 Boise, ID 83725-1525 Read the VerticalResponse marketing policy. [image: Non-Profits Email Free with VerticalResponse!] -- Anny Ballardini http://annyballardini.blogspot.com/ http://www.fieralingue.it/modules.php?name=poetshome http://www.lulu.com/content/5806078 http://www.moriapoetry.com/ebooks.html I Tell You: One must still have chaos in one to give birth to a dancing star! Friedrich Nietzsche ? Stulta est clementia, cum tot ubique vatibus occurras, periturae parcere chartae ? Giovenale -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100315/ad136bc2/attachment.html From anny.ballardini Mon Mar 15 06:17:00 2010 From: anny.ballardini (Anny Ballardini) Date: Mon Mar 15 06:17:00 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Observing Pi on a mathematical day In-Reply-To: <8C9E0D9C-DAE4-45B2-94D5-3985B0B2C3D9@ripon.edu> References: <4b65c2d71003140908g43935bb3q6f91e0e29a5cd5a5@mail.gmail.com> <437b1e3a1003140945l69b0fc80l4e1fcf7c69ba586e@mail.gmail.com> <8C9E0D9C-DAE4-45B2-94D5-3985B0B2C3D9@ripon.edu> Message-ID: <4b65c2d71003150607m425b308dmbb460a8c4d86aeb5@mail.gmail.com> Excellent. On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 3:18 AM, David Graham wrote: > Here's an older poem of mine--certainly the only one I've ever written on a > mathematical theme. . . . As I recall, the poem was triggered by an > article in the New Yorker about the construction of a supercomputer in an > attempt to work out Pi to the most possible decimal points. > * > * > * > * > *Observing Pi* > > > Thousands of numerals scroll up the screen, > instances of the inexplicable, and the room heats > as if with strain, but it's just light bursting > against the computer's dumb retina, > the glow of absolute method unfolding > absolutely--these random digits aimed > in the general direction of God, > the welcome end of all axioms. > > Any skull will circle to contemplate > its own diameter, zeroing in > closer, closer, but never arriving. > Pi is some super-Alaska, peak > upon nameless peak, far beyond all maps. > Yet in every infinity some order > occurs by accident. Snatches of > Beethoven's Fifth, all my old phone numbers, > the genetic code of cockroaches, > stock market quotes from 2004-- > all these and their negations exist in Pi, > along with test scores and tax refunds. > > Staring at the luminous terminal > I think: it's You again, isn't it, > Ancient of Days? You always loved a riddle, > a test, a bet, some cosmic tit-for-tat > such as undid Job and the prodigal's > brother. Though fewer today believe > that You mean it in some old testament way > --righteous locusts blacking the horizon-- > You're so huge there's no way to tell true chance > from Your maybe accidental truth. > > Yes, Nameless One, I'm talking to myself, > as I might address a cold front or tide, > a slim shiver of wind in the top branches, > and if I'm faithful it is because > I'll never know the next digit before > it comes--and know that I will never know. > Out of the pearly winter skies today > come millions of skittish snowflakes, teased down > by the transcendental wind. So I stand, > head back-tilted, gazing far into > that downrushing swarm. I am observing > Pi, that much I will admit, and how > my mind is perfectly chilled with it. > > --David Graham. *Tampa Review* 11 (Fall 1995) > > > ======================================== > David Graham > grahamd at ripon.edu > > Home Page: > http://web.me.com/drjazz > > Poetry Library: > http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html > ========================================== > > > > > On Mar 14, 2010, at 11:45 AM, David Weinstock wrote: > > In 4th grade in a little country school in New Jersey, a friend and I > challenged each other to memorize pi. I reached about 70 digits; he went on > to 100. Both efforts far exceed any conceivable practical use for the ratio > -- one could calculate the volume of the entire universe without needing > that precise a value of pi and not be wrong by half a cubic inch. > > My friend is now a professor of physics, and I'm not, but I can still > rattle off the digits to about two dozen places. > > Happy Pi Day! > > David 3/14/10 > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100315/4a683f20/attachment.html From amyhappens Mon Mar 15 11:04:51 2010 From: amyhappens (amy king) Date: Mon Mar 15 11:04:51 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Would you buy art? A poem? Message-ID: <490359.51239.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Would you pay for a poem? Possible? Worth it? What's art worth? Is poetry art? Is capitalism art? Is there a support-artists culture? Here - http://amyking.wordpress.com/2010/03/15/paid-for-poem/ Thanks, Amy _______ HTML GIANT -- You might like me too: http://htmlgiant.com/author-spotlight/i-like-amy-king-a-lot/ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100315/4c99aa52/attachment-0001.html From david.weinstock Mon Mar 15 15:14:23 2010 From: david.weinstock (David Weinstock) Date: Mon Mar 15 15:14:23 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Would you buy art? A poem? In-Reply-To: <490359.51239.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <490359.51239.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <437b1e3a1003151504h72906160ma5be6d877ca6b6d9@mail.gmail.com> I am pretty much reconciled to the idea that we give our poems away in exchange for other considerations. Short poems especially do not get book deals, film options, or leveraged buyouts. Here and there, as a sort of stunt, someone will offer to sell a poem or buy one, but that's not really the poetry business model. What people pay for is generally not a poem, but a real live poet, a person who has written poems and knows how it's done. We might be paid to give a reading, teach a class, edit a manuscript, or be a professor. Yes? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100315/0e8417b1/attachment.html From bobgrumman Mon Mar 15 15:32:24 2010 From: bobgrumman (Bob Grumman) Date: Mon Mar 15 15:32:24 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Would you buy art? A poem? In-Reply-To: <437b1e3a1003151504h72906160ma5be6d877ca6b6d9@mail.gmail.com> References: <490359.51239.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <437b1e3a1003151504h72906160ma5be6d877ca6b6d9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4B9EC1B9.8060801@nut-n-but.net> David Weinstock wrote: > I am pretty much reconciled to the idea that we give our poems away in > exchange for other considerations. Short poems especially do not get > book deals, film options, or leveraged buyouts. > > Here and there, as a sort of stunt, someone will offer to sell a poem > or buy one, but that's not really the poetry business model. What > people pay for is generally not a poem, but a real live poet, a person > who has written poems and knows how it's done. We might be paid to > give a reading, teach a class, edit a manuscript, or be a professor. > > Yes? Yes, except you left out win a grant. --Bob From david.weinstock Mon Mar 15 15:59:50 2010 From: david.weinstock (David Weinstock) Date: Mon Mar 15 15:59:50 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Would you buy art? A poem? In-Reply-To: <4B9EC1B9.8060801@nut-n-but.net> References: <490359.51239.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <437b1e3a1003151504h72906160ma5be6d877ca6b6d9@mail.gmail.com> <4B9EC1B9.8060801@nut-n-but.net> Message-ID: <437b1e3a1003151549u602c4d8cpa1d847aa183ab3ef@mail.gmail.com> A more ancient form of support for the arts was patronage. Long ago, it was overt -- you would dedicate your book to a noble lord either to ask, or to thank, for a bag of gold. I wonder if it still exists in that form. Are there wealthy people who simply provide cash for poets, directly, as patrons? I suspect so, but also suspect that such arrangements tend to be very discreet nowadays. Can anyone tell me a story about today's version of direct patronage? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100315/0902a796/attachment.html From halvard Mon Mar 15 17:37:33 2010 From: halvard (Halvard Johnson) Date: Mon Mar 15 17:37:33 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Would you buy art? A poem? In-Reply-To: <437b1e3a1003151504h72906160ma5be6d877ca6b6d9@mail.gmail.com> References: <490359.51239.qm@web83304.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> <437b1e3a1003151504h72906160ma5be6d877ca6b6d9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: And who gets to take that paid-for poet home after class? Hal follow this link to The Perfection of Mozart's Third Eye, my latest collection -- http://www.scribd.com/people/documents/14481250-chalk-editions Halvard Johnson ================ halvard at gmail.com http://sites.google.com/site/halvardjohnson/Home http://entropyandme.blogspot.com http://imageswithoutwords.blogspot.com http://www.hamiltonstone.org On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 6:04 PM, David Weinstock wrote: > I am pretty much reconciled to the idea that we give our poems away in > exchange for other considerations. Short poems especially do not get book > deals, film options, or leveraged buyouts. > > Here and there, as a sort of stunt, someone will offer to sell a poem or > buy one, but that's not really the poetry business model. What people pay > for is generally not a poem, but a real live poet, a person who has written > poems and knows how it's done. We might be paid to give a reading, teach a > class, edit a manuscript, or be a professor. > > Yes? > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > New-Poetry mailing list > New-Poetry at wiz.cath.vt.edu > http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/new-poetry > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100315/cb26e1c8/attachment.html From jforjames Mon Mar 15 20:14:08 2010 From: jforjames (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Mon Mar 15 20:14:08 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Poetry as a Soon-to-Be Bestselling Cure-All Message-ID: <8CC92CC7B591A59-86C4-3ECB@webmail-m016.sysops.aol.com> http://therumpus.net/2010/03/poetry-as-a-soon-to-be-bestselling-cure-all/ Poetry as a Soon-to-Be Bestselling Cure-All Michael Berger bio ? March 4th, 2010 ? filed under books Poetry doesn?t seem to sell, although there are hundreds upon hundreds of poets creating it. I would venture to guess that there are at least twice as many poetry contests out there than fiction contests. Everywhere I turn I see the smiling, slightly abashed face of a poet. Why do you write poetry? I ask them. Because, they say, it helps me talk about the abyss. And when I talk about it, I don?t have to think about it as often. That sounds advantageous for both reader and writer, I tell them. So why do books of poetry never sell at my bookstore? Whenever somebody buys a book of poetry at my store I feel I have to congratulate him or her and then we start talking. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100315/3407c86a/attachment.html From grahamd Tue Mar 16 08:29:19 2010 From: grahamd (David Graham) Date: Tue Mar 16 08:29:19 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Goaltending wisdom from Margaret Atwood Message-ID: <9A810C5D-D089-4D5F-B43E-7F5C33E9AD0A@ripon.edu> This is too good not to share. A brief video in which major Canadian author Margaret Atwood shares her hockey tips. And, yes, she does wear a goalie's uniform. http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2010/03/15/margaret_atwood_hockey_video ======================================== David Graham grahamd at ripon.edu Home Page: http://web.me.com/drjazz Poetry Library: http://web.me.com/drjazz/Site/DGPoLibrary.html ========================================== -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100316/d0ede25f/attachment.html From barrys.alpert Tue Mar 16 13:23:38 2010 From: barrys.alpert (Barry Alpert) Date: Tue Mar 16 13:23:38 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] RE: Goaltending wisdom from Margaret Atwood Message-ID: This brings to mind Don DeLillo's "Amazons: An Intimate Memoir by the First Woman Ever to Play in the National Hockey League" (1980), published under the pseudonym Cleo Birdwell. I'd be surprised if Atwood were unaware of it. Amusing "literary performances" from my critical perspective. Perhaps there are others which mine the materials of hockey, particularly amongst the reaction in Vancouver to this year's Official Winter Olympics. A few alternative spaces didn't like being officially muzzled, but I couldn't detect any striking performances in response. Barry Alpert -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100316/63e9dfd9/attachment.html From jforjames Tue Mar 16 14:13:33 2010 From: jforjames (jforjames@aol.com) Date: Tue Mar 16 14:13:33 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Fwd: Jan Schreiber defines the critic's sense of Judgment In-Reply-To: <1103191739646.1101694517006.2467.6.5011007B@scheduler> References: <1103191739646.1101694517006.2467.6.5011007B@scheduler> Message-ID: <8CC936293E04B42-6EF4-4DDA@webmail-d073.sysops.aol.com> You're receiving this email because of your relationship with CPR. Please confirm your continued interest in receiving email from us. You may unsubscribe if you no longer wish to receive our emails. An Agenda for Critics by Jan Schreiber Is it comprehensible? The question precedes all others and is in our time surprisingly complex. A poem can elude understanding because the reader does not recognize what it is about, or -- less often -- because the writer is not in control of his material; but the obscurity can sometimes be deliberate, as when a writer attempts to convey the emotional impact of a situation without describing the situation itself. So the critic's first responsibility is not to determine the writer's intention -- a futile quest most of the time -- but to make sense of the poem. Doing so involves a combination of sympathy and skepticism. The reader must be alive to the possible meanings inherent in the text, yet not so credulous that any random association comes, for him, to represent what the poem is about. A passage in Hart Crane's "For the Marriage of Faustus and Helen" may illustrate the point: The mind is brushed by sparrow wings; Numbers, rebuffed by asphalt, crowd The margins of the day, accent the curbs, Conveying divers dawns on every corner After the poem was published, numerous conscientious readers found this passage extremely obscure. They were troubled by the word "numbers," which some took to be mathematical abstractions and others felt must be people. Neither interpretation shed much light on the passage, and only some time later, when it was pointed out that "numbers" referred to the sparrows in the first line, did the meaning of the passage, and the imagery it conveys, become clear. For a contemporary example, consider this passage from a poem by Jorie Graham: Then, sugary at first, then monstrous, cuneiform, as if a microscopic chain had rattled once -- bony lightning -- invisible inscription -- the call is returned -- or no, another call, almost identical, is cast -- like a hoofmark on the upper registers -- across the housetops . . . Readers are likely to find this passage obscure. It seems to refer to a sound, that is, a call. But of what sort? Its quality or character is not clarified by the attributes given in the first three lines, nor by those in the final two. The six lines, in short, convey minimal information with a great deal of distraction or static. Such problems of comprehension may either cripple or, paradoxically, sometimes enhance a poem's reputation with readers. One could argue that the incoherence of large parts of Pound's Cantos has had both effects. (Click Here to Read the Full Article) Subscribe to the CPR archive! $6 per month or just $18 per year! Enjoy access to over ten years of interviews, articles, reviews, and essays. Philip Larkin and Happiness by Rachel Wetzsteon Editor's Note: I asked Rachel for this piece last year, and I am terribly sorry that it was not published before she passed away at the end of 2009. She did, however, approve this final copy. We hope you enjoy it. - Ernest Hilbert For those familiar with Philip Larkin's work, the title of this short essay will seem to offer a juxtaposition so improbable as to be laugh-out-loud funny -- rather like that old joke staple, the tiny book titled German Humor, or the admittedly unlikely prospect of a panel at a New Formalist conference on "The Achievement of the L-A-N-G-U-A-G-E Poets." Indeed, if we do associate the word with Larkin, we're most likely to think of poems in which happiness is mentioned as an absence -- as in the narrator's rueful longing in "High Windows" for "everyone young going down the long slide / To happiness, endlessly." I don't want to suggest that Larkin's poetry gives us glimpses of joy with anything resembling regularity. But I think that the topic of happiness -- what it is, how to attain and cultivate it -- is crucial to his work, and I'd like to try to show how. I'll focus on one poem, "Born Yesterday," with a few quick forays into other poems. "Born Yesterday," written in 1954 and dedicated to Sally Amis, the third child of Larkin's lifelong friend Kingsley, appeared in his 1955 collection The Less Deceived. In the first of the poem's two stanzas, Larkin reveals that he's already made a wish for the infant Sally, but rather than let us in on the wish right away -- and thereby ruin our delicious suspense -- he offers a list of what it does not consist of: "the usual stuff" of beauty, innocence, and love. These traits would of course be nice, but they are the by-products of luck; young Sally has no power to control their arrival. The poem's enumeration of clich?d notions of happiness also recalls Larkin's scorching tally of dusty platitudes about poetic childhoods in the poem, "I Remember, I Remember," written just several weeks earlier. In this poem, as we will doubtless remember, the narrator, visiting his Coventry birthplace with a friend, wryly lists all the things that didn't occur in his decidedly un-Wordsworthian childhood: he "did not invent / Blinding theologies of flowers and fruits"; there was no "farm where I could be / 'Really myself'"; at no point did he lie down with a young lady as "'all became a burning mist'"; and so on. All that happened there, he tells his friend, is that "my childhood was unspent." But in "Born Yesterday," Larkin's corrective to trite ideas about Childish Things works very differently, since, in the poem's second stanza, rather than substituting real negatives for false positives, he replaces false positives with real (and surprising) positives: his hopes that Sally may be "ordinary," "Have . . . an average of talents" and even "be dull." These wishes certainly catch us off guard -- is this happiness? -- but by the time we arrive at the stanza's end, we're convinced, remarkably enough, that it is, "If" (Larkin's charmingly modest disclaimer) "that is what a skilled, / Vigilant, flexible, / Unemphasised, enthralled / Catching of happiness is called." (Click Here to Read the Full Article) Help the CPR Please remember all the weary critics out there sweating over their reviews, counting on payment for their taxing and otherwise thankless work. Consider a tax-deductible contribution to the Contemporary Poetry Review. Your contribution helps to sustain the most energetic independent voices in poetry criticism today. Remember: They have the numbers; we the heights. Please help us today if you can. The Contemporary Poetry Review is a program of the American Poetry Fund, a charitable organization with 501(c)(3) status. Please make checks payable to the American Poetry Fund. Contemporary Poetry Review PO Box 5222 Arlington, VA 22205 USA With your help, we will continue to resuscitate the vital art of poetry criticism. "The Tell-Tale Line": Joan Houlihan on Four New Books of Poetry Previews for a movie, or a trailer, usually tell me what I need to know about the movie -- how's the acting? Dialogue? Cinematography? -- and I can make a decision to: a) go see it now, b) wait for the DVD, or c) forget about it. Sometimes word of mouth from trusted friends will convince me otherwise. However, I never seek out reviews to guide my decisions, whereas in the 70's I wouldn't bother with a movie if the great Pauline Kael wrote a bad review of it in The New Yorker. Nowadays, I might seek out and read a movie review afterwards, to see how my perceptions matched or diverged from, those of the reviewer. In the same way, I've gone from being led by a review to (or away from) a particular book of poetry, to "previewing" it, either by browsing in a bookshop, or more often, checking it out on Amazon's "look-inside-the-book" feature. (Publishers take note: my shopping habits are not unique.) Amazon also provides a kind of "trusted friends" resource with List-mania-people who have liked many of the same books I do are good references for future book buying (but the so-called reviews of a book on Amazon can be discounted automatically; most are written by the author or friends of the author). As Dan Pritchard, editor of The Critical Flame, points out in his blog, The Wooden Spoon, the delivery and distribution mechanisms for poetry (including POD, internet posts and blogs, e-books and many new micro-presses with .pdf downloads) have flooded the remaining, and vanishing, traditional gatekeepers (e.g. reviewers for major periodicals). So, with over 2,000 books of poetry produced in a year (including the small and smaller presses), the evaluation of what's worth reading is falling more and more to the reader/buyer. But is it really so difficult for a reader to decide, and rather quickly, what's worth reading? I don't think so. In fact, I think most readers of poetry can tell from the opening lines of a book if it's a book they want to read more of, just as most of us make a decision about seeing a movie from its trailer. As with a movie trailer, a lot can be seen in a small space. To test my theory, I'll use the opening lines of four books, all written from the same aesthetic (an I-based narrative) so as not to confuse ideas about an aesthetic with those of writing ability. Imagine that you must decide whether or not the whole book is worth reading based on their opening lines. (Click Here to Read More) CPR editor Ernest Hilbert's new chapbook, Aim Your Arrows at the Sun, is now available from LATR Press in New York. Contact Daniel Lin at daniel at loveamongtheruins.com. For more information about the press, please visit latr.tumblr.com. Hand-sewn in an edition of 250 copies. >From Adam Kirsch's Foreword to Aim Your Arrows at the Sun: "To be haunted, for an American poet today, is a rare and enviable condition. Not by personal demons -- everyone has those, and when poets write about them they are really haunting themselves. To be genuinely haunted, as Ernest Hilbert is in these outward- and backward-looking poems, one must be conscious of the past, and of the chastening contrast between the past and the present; in other words, one must have a sense of history. When Hilbert is visited by the past, in these poems at least, it is by grand and violent phantoms: 'I read on about the lives and deaths of kings,' he writes in a Lowellian phrase in 'April Arsenal.' Like Robert Lowell, Hilbert is drawn to scenes of carnage, where the true face of humanity seems to reveal itself." This Month Jan Schreiber Introduces an Agenda for Critics Rachel Wetzsteon on Happiness in Larkin Joan Houlihan on Four New Books of Poetry Coming up in the CPR Coming up in future issues of the CPR: Rebecca Porte on Thomas James and New Zealand poet Robin Hyde Marit MacArthur on Polish Poetry in Translation Anthony Moore on Seamus Heaney David Rothman on Poetry Handbooks Carol Bere on Carol Ann Duffy Gregory Dowling on Auden's debt to Byron Katy Evans-Bush on Tone and Archaism in Modern Poetry Andrew Goodspeed on Teresa Leo Forward email This email was sent to jforjames at aol.com by editor at contemporarypoetryreview.net. Update Profile/Email Address | Instant removal with SafeUnsubscribe? | Privacy Policy. Email Marketing by Contemporary Poetry Review | P.O. Box 5222 | Arlington | VA | 22205 -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100316/bee4d1a4/attachment.html From pastoral Tue Mar 16 14:50:06 2010 From: pastoral (Pastor Al Schirmacher) Date: Tue Mar 16 14:50:06 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Resulting Questions from "An Agenda for Critics" Message-ID: <02f901cac551$56056f20$7e01a8c0@PASTORAL> I was intrigued by the article "An Agenda for Critics" from Contemporary Poetry Review that was just posted. Of particular interest was the section, "Is it just"", specifically, "In a pluralistic society that has for some time been stepping deliberately away from fealty to an over-arching more authority, the notion that one poem, or one opinion, carries more truth and virtue than another has come to be seen as somewhat quaint, if not untenable." As an evangelical pastor, former businessman, naturalist and aspiring poet, I operate in a series of spheres that range from absolute truth to moral relativism to paradox. The integration of experience with the above observation leads to the following questions: * When did this trend in culture, specifically in poetry, begin? And why? * Can someone who believes in truth, while admitting ignorance and sometimes moral paradox, speak to our modern society? To other poets? * Can moral judgments be reasonably applied to poetry? Thanks! Al Schirmacher (Relatively new, but not overly shy, poster) PS Found much of the article fascinating, printed to contemplate in depth. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://wiz.cath.vt.edu/pipermail/new-poetry/attachments/20100316/4baef8d9/attachment.html From by.tjmst Wed Mar 17 01:24:57 2010 From: by.tjmst (BY TJMST) Date: Wed Mar 17 01:24:57 2010 Subject: [New-Poetry] Re: New-Poetry Digest, Vol 69, Issue 31 In-Reply-To: <201003161700.o2GH042D028351@wiz.cath.vt.edu> References: <201003161700.o2GH042D028351@wiz.cath.vt.edu> Message-ID: <5908b9b21003170115g1a48a1f0y392a64cde34cb3d7@mail.gmail.com> CAPTURED BY WOULD YOU BUY A POEM? i'm equally positvely agitated by ths literary issue which i dont even know it's still a probem in advanced literary societies like the USA.Right here in Africa people and poets do buy books and poetry books but relatively a minute population of readers do.I m not surprised one of your contributors said he routinely felicitated with poetry book buyers in his store.However some readers still prefer poetry books because its richer and possibly appealingly deeper meaning to factions or fictions.i would to say more on this later Power is very limited at my disposal besides the influx and simultaneous access of CDS,IPOD,VIDEOS and related internet websites have enormously captured or should i say shared the budget if any for poetry buyers.-especially in developing democracies with less taste for literary gifts.Even paid poetry reading is rare butauthors audience already aware that poets can be paid for such works and presentation in a dramatic form.I still opine that these options have different powers of